To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the impact of the proposed reductions in tax credits on the number of children in working families living in poverty.
My Lords, the Government are committed to moving from a high-welfare, high- tax, low-wage economy to a lower-welfare, lower-tax, higher-wage society. As the Chancellor has made clear, the Government will set out in the Autumn Statement how we plan to achieve the same goal of reforming tax credits and saving the money we need to save to secure our economy while, at the same time, giving help in the transition, including to families with children.
When the leader of the Opposition asked the Prime Minister a question about this matter this morning, he made reference to increases in the minimum wage and personal tax allowance, due next year. Does the Minister accept that those measures will do little to prevent the 200,000 increase in child poverty figures, forecast by the Resolution Foundation, if the tax credit cuts go ahead? They cannot target support on children and will not, in any case, be of benefit to many of those affected by the cuts.
My Lords, we believe that work is the best way to help children. There is evidence to support the fact that children in workless households do worse than those in working ones. In addition, we are helping families with children. We are doubling free childcare and, under universal credit, we will support the increase to cover up to 85% of childcare costs where all parents are in work, regardless of the number of hours worked. The early years pupil premium provides £50 million in extra funding. We are currently providing free school meals for all infant school pupils in the first three years and we are introducing tax-free childcare from 2017.
My Lords, I thank the Chancellor for listening to the debate on tax credits. Will exemptions be made for the child element within tax credits, particularly in exceptional cases: for instance, where there is domestic abuse in a family with more than three children; where a family with more than two children face the bereavement of the person who is working; or a family where the third child is disabled? I would welcome the Minister’s assurance that the Government are listening to this.
My Lords, I am afraid that I am going to have to disappoint the noble Baroness. The Autumn Statement is when the Chancellor will announce what he is going to do about the transition and what will happen to the tax credit position following the events of last week. It is worth repeating what the Chancellor said.
Oh!
The noble Lord may not want to hear it but I will tell him anyway: “We will continue to reform tax credits and save the money needed so that Britain lives within its means while at the same time lessening the impact on families during the transition”.—[Official Report, Commons, 27/10/15; col 177.] The Chancellor has said that he will set out those plans in the Autumn Statement.
My Lords, does the Minister have an estimate of the number of disabled children whose families will be driven into debt as a result of the planned tax credit cuts? Will he give the House an assurance that he will put pressure on the Chancellor to mitigate these quite appalling consequences in his Autumn Statement?
My Lords, I am not quite sure what the planned tax credits are now, which is why we will wait until the Autumn Statement. However, I can say that for disabled people we have until now protected those benefits related to the additional costs of disability and we will continue to do so.
My Lords, is it not shown by the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission that 7 million children will suffer as a result of the cuts in tax credits and that the income of 45% of working families will go down? This is not a constitutional crisis, it is a humanitarian crisis, for which the savage and shameful policy of the Government is solely responsible.
It is interesting that since we took over as the Government in 2010, 800,000 fewer people are in relative low income before housing costs and 300,000 fewer children are in relative low income.
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, following an exchange in the debate we had last week, his noble friend, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, sent a communication to my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours? I have permission to quote that communication, in which the noble Earl says: “The plans in the draft regulations would mean that, from April 2016, a family with children who are in receipt of child tax credits would receive those tax credits elements at the same rate of payment as currently applies in respect of those children” How does the Minister justify that as a true and fair view? What is paid in terms of tax credits reflects not only the various elements—the building blocks—but the net effect of applying the income threshold and the taper. The former has been dramatically lowered and the taper accelerated. So why will the Government not come clean? This does mean that there will be reductions in child tax credits and working tax credits.
My Lords, the noble Lord is referring to a television programme with David Dimbleby. The PM said that, “child tax credit, we increased by £450” The presenter asked: “And it’s not going to fall?” The PM confirmed: “It’s not going to fall” The award has not changed. It is £2,780 and it was before.
My Lords, can the Minister explain how the new focus on changing people’s life chances will be more effective in addressing the root causes of poverty than the child poverty targets introduced by the last Labour Government?
My Lords, my noble friend’s question slightly moves away from tax credits on to the welfare Bill, which this House is going to consider in a couple of weeks’ time. We are working to end child poverty, and until now, the talk about poverty has been caught up in the old mindset of an arbitrary limit, and this needs to change. The existing statutory framework, which was set around four income-related targets, is flawed because it focuses the government action on tackling the symptoms, rather than the root causes, of child poverty. This new system will focus on the root causes of poverty: there will be two new measures—educational attainment and the number of children in workless households—plus various non-statutory life-chance indicators. The Second Reading of the welfare Bill is on 17 November.
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure the supply of adequately trained teachers, particularly teachers trained by university departments of education.
The Government believe that our best schools should play a leading role in training new teachers, so that they are fully equipped to succeed in the classroom. Many schools are actively choosing to work closely with universities in delivering teacher training, recognising the benefits that they can bring. We are committed to ensuring that the teaching profession can attract and retain the very best people. We now have more, better-qualified teachers in England’s classrooms than ever before.
I thank the Minister for her reply, and I know that this is not her area of direct responsibility. However, she must be aware that we have an unstable teacher supply framework, that there are going to be shortages of teachers in some regions in both the short term and the medium term and that the unstable income stream for higher education might mean that some universities—particularly those in the Russell Group—will opt out of the connection with teacher education altogether. Does she really think that that adds up to a good policy for this Government?
I thank the noble Baroness for her question. She is right that we are moving to a school-led teacher training system, but that involves collaboration between universities and schools. A teacher-led or school-led system does not mean a university-excluded system, and we are seeing great collaboration whereby, for example, 70% of School Direct places are actually being delivered by universities. It is improving the link between schools and universities, but also putting in charge of teacher training those who know best what they want in their schools—the head teachers.
My Lords, in light of the proposal to make the EBacc compulsory, and of the welcome inclusion of statutory foreign languages at key stage 2, what specific steps do Her Majesty’s Government plan to take to reverse the shortfall of modern language teachers, which last year was 21% according to DfE figures? With the falling numbers of students taking a modern language degree, does the Minister agree that the supply chain for future languages NQTs needs urgent attention if government policies are going to be successfully implemented?
We certainly recognise that teacher recruitment is challenging. As the economy grows, graduates are in ever-increasing demand, and there are certain subjects where this is particularly challenging. That is why we are taking a broad approach, offering training bursaries and salary grants to the best graduates and career changers, putting schools at the centre of teacher training and trying to tackle the problems that teachers tell us bothered them the most once they were in posts, which were unnecessary workloads and poor pupil behaviour. We recognise that there are challenges ahead, but we also recognise that teaching is an extremely attractive profession, and is very fulfilling for those graduates who decide to take it up.
My Lords, in light of the answer that the Minister just gave, why have the Government cut the bursaries in some of the shortage subjects, such as design and technology and primary teaching?
I reassure the noble Baroness that this year we recruited the number of primary school teaching graduates that we wished to. That is very good news. We are increasing bursaries in a number of key subjects. From next year, there will be £30,000 bursaries for graduates who are going into teaching in some of the most difficult subjects.
How will the new national teaching service announced yesterday help to raise standards in schools that have difficulty recruiting teachers?
The new national teaching service is looking to help those schools that are struggling to recruit teachers in some of our most challenging areas. By 2020, we intend and hope to recruit and relocate 1,500 outstanding teachers to help underperforming schools. They will relocate for up to three years to help to improve those schools and to offer inspirational teaching to young people in those areas.
My Lords, will the noble Baroness agree that it is as important to retain teachers once they have been recruited as it is to recruit them in the first place? I think she will, because she mentioned it already in one of her answers. Does she think that the current system of inspection and monitoring of teachers is conducive to their retention, and to their growing and developing into the kind of creative and innovative teachers that we need in the future?
I entirely agree with the noble Baroness that teacher retention is crucial. I put on record that some of the scare statistics on the number of teachers leaving the profession are simply untrue. In fact, the latest figures show that 90% of teachers are still teaching after their first year. More than three-quarters are teaching after five years. This shows the dedication of our teachers and the great rewards that teaching can bring.
My Lords, is it not a reality that, when we speak about adequately trained teachers, we are talking about a profession where 70% of teachers are not professionally trained? I do not want to decry those who, some after taking Mickey Mouse degrees, move into teaching and spend a year there when they cannot find anything else to do—there are many good people who have moved—but there are many failures who move in through the one-year supplementary course. Our primary schools are being abandoned by professionalism.
I am afraid I do not recognise the figures that the noble Lord used. In fact, 96% of teachers in the state sector are qualified. It is also right that head teachers have the chance to ask a RADA-trained actor to teach some drama to their young children, or perhaps have Premiership sports coaches come and teach PE. We want teachers who inspire young people. Of course they have to be trained and have the skills to do it, but anything that encourages a love of learning is something we should welcome in our schools.
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what change there has been in the number of British nationals employed between (1) May 2005 and May 2010, and (2) May 2010 and the most recent month for which statistics are available.
My Lords, between May 2005 and 2010, the number of British nationals employed fell by 455,000. Since 2010, the number of employed British nationals has risen by 1.1 million.
My Lords, that is excellent news, as I am sure all Members of the House will agree. My particular interest is the position of women. Will my noble friend tell the House exactly what the position over the same period was for women?
I would be delighted to tell my noble friend. Since 2010, the number of women in work has risen by 920,000. The female employment rate has increased by 3.3 percentage points to a record level of 68.8%. By contrast, between 2005 and 2010, the employment rate for women fell by 1.3 percentage points.
My Lords, however good those figures are, is the noble Baroness aware that the black cloud of unemployment hangs like a shroud over thousands of families, and the whole community, in Redcar on Teesside? Is she aware that this is a huge site of eight square miles, with a blast furnace as big as St Paul’s Cathedral, and that it will take a great deal to bring it back into use after the facilities have been demolished? There is a site next door—also of eight square miles—with another steelworks whose future is also in doubt. Down in Ebbsfleet in Kent, the Government have given £200 million to rehabilitate the site. Will they look at the figure given for the Redcar site of £80 million, £20 million of which is going on redundancy payments, to see if it can be increased, and bring together a task force to do something for that community?
My Lords, we understand that the position in Redcar is terribly distressing for all the families involved, and the Government are already addressing this issue. There are measures already in place to help the workers affected to retrain. The Government are committed to full employment, and there are record numbers of people in work. We have had tremendous success in helping people back into work and we will continue to do that for Redcar and around the country
My Lords, the Minister did not mention that over a third of the new jobs created between 2010 and 2014 were people becoming self-employed, and that those jobs tend to be less secure and lower paid. Will the Minister therefore confirm that self-employed people will not benefit from what the Government call the new living wage—the higher minimum rate for the over-25s—and yet will still lose through the changes to tax credits? What are the Government doing to compensate them?
My Lords, self-employment is a very important route into work for many people, particularly many women, and we have set up, under Julie Dean, an independent review of any barriers to self-employment that may exist. We will also continue to work with the noble Baroness, Lady Mone, in supporting start-ups for disadvantaged communities.
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the problems of the steel industry have been greatly exacerbated by our inability to deal with dumping from China because of our membership of the European Union and the huge levies imposed on high-energy businesses as part of the green agenda, promoted by the Liberals with such vigour?
I think the issues for the steel industry go wider than that; there are macroeconomic factors as well.
My Lords, I listened carefully to the figures that the noble Baroness gave. Of course, they sound very creditable. However, can she comment on the fact that six million—about 23% of the workforce—are below the current acknowledged living wage?
When Labour was in power, it did not increase the national minimum wage to the national living wage, and pay is increasing rapidly. There has been a 3% increase in average earnings, the fastest rate for many years.
Does my noble friend agree that the great success this Government have had in creating new jobs goes wider than simply the economy? Does she also agree that rising employment is the only permanent way to tackle poverty, that it is the best way to keep families together, and that there is a distinctive, powerful and important moral reason for continuing this Government’s successful economic policies?
I certainly agree with that. The Government are on the road to achieving their target of full employment. The employment rate is at a record high, and there are nearly 740,000 vacancies in the economy, which is much higher than before the recession. We therefore have a record to be proud of in this regard.
My Lords, perhaps I can assist the Minister by giving her the opportunity to acknowledge that the Labour Government actually introduced the minimum wage—let alone anything else—and when we introduced it, we were told it would finish off industry because companies would not be able to afford it. However, I want to push her on other things she has been talking about. I agree that economic opportunity is at the core of good family and community life. Redcar, which we have been discussing, is in the north-east, which still has the highest unemployment in the country and will suffer, I suspect, more from changes in the tax credit regime—whatever they are—than anywhere else in the country. The Government are therefore piling on top of each other lots of things that will bring my region real problems. What are she and the Government going to do to tackle them?
My Lords, as I said, the Government are rolling out their policies, which have created and will continue to create new jobs at a record rate. The northern powerhouse will be powerful in ensuring that the benefits are spread more widely. As to the initial point, we were talking here about the national living wage rather than the minimum wage.
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the current policy on the treatment of transgender individuals in the criminal justice system.
My Lords, criminal justice agencies are mindful of their duties under the Equality Act 2010. In particular, the National Offender Management Service policy on the care and management of transsexual prisoners states that prisoners are normally placed according to their “legally recognised gender”. The guidelines allow, however, some room for discretion and in such cases senior prison management will review the circumstances with relevant experts to protect the prisoner’s safety and well-being, and those of other prisoners.
My Lords, Tara Hudson—a woman, after six years of gender reconstruction—was originally imprisoned at HMP Bristol, a tough prison for 600 men, causing her great distress. She was moved to a women’s prison only after the judges considering her appeal suggested that the Prison Service reconsider. How can prison allocation be so insensitive to transgender offenders, particularly in the light of the Minister’s Answer? Will his department ensure that in future, if a transgender defendant is at risk of a custodial sentence, full and careful thought will be given to allocation before sentence rather than after placement?
I am slightly surprised that the noble Lord has commented in such detail on Tara Hudson; he will be aware of the obligations under the Data Protection Act and the Gender Recognition Act 2004, which place restrictions on the disclosure of information relating to prisoners. As noble Lords will be aware, it is the policy of the Ministry of Justice and its executive agencies never to discuss individual cases. However, without breaching any of the obligations under those Acts, I can assure the House that she is being held in an appropriate environment and is receiving the care that she needs.
My Lords, I agree entirely with the Minister on the approach to anonymity but, in this and other cases, there is deep concern about treatment within the criminal justice system. There are, however, good works being undertaken, such as at Her Majesty’s Prison Stafford. Will he reassure the House that there is ongoing training and awareness-raising of the issues of transsexuality, particularly when aspects of the criminal justice system are outsourced?
The noble Lord makes an important point. There is an emphasis in the prison officer training, which has been extended in its length and its content refreshed, on respecting the needs and rights of each individual prisoner in their care. There is a component of the mandatory training that addresses the Equality Act and the nine characteristics protected under that legislation, of which gender reassignment is one. Probation officer training has a consistent emphasis on meaningful engagement with individual offenders to support their rehabilitation.
My Lords, if the key issue is legal recognition, why, in the care and management of transsexual detainees for immigration purposes, does the Home Office manual state that it is appropriate to place transsexuals in the estate of their acquired gender, “even if the law does not recognise them in their acquired gender”, and why can that not be applied to the Prison Service as well?
As I indicated, the Prison Service tends to—correctly, I suggest—allocate prisoners according to their legally recognised gender, but there is a discretion to respond to the individual circumstances of a case, which is often as a result of a thorough risk assessment involving both the prisoner and other prisoners. Often, a multiagency panel will be involved. It is indeed the policy of NOMS to make sure that these matters are dealt with sensitively.
My Lords, returning to what the noble Lord, Lord Marks, said, the Minister seemed to suggest that this happens at the point of prison, which really is too late. Surely, when a person is leaving court, they need to be in the right van to go to the right prison. Should the decision not be taken earlier, before they leave court? Can he assure us that the staff there are properly trained and that the decision is taken at the right point?
The noble Baroness makes an important point and the National Offender Management Service is currently looking at ways to facilitate the proper recording of this information through the introduction of an equalities self-declaration form to be completed by all defendants who are adjourned for the preparation of a pre-sentence report. These details are very difficult to obtain while adopting appropriate sensitivity and recognising the obligations under the Gender Recognition Act.
In light of some of the comments on previous cases, will the Government review the medical and bureaucratic hurdles for securing a gender recognition certificate under the 2004 Act?
The Gender Recognition Act is generally considered to be working well. It is not something to be undertaken lightly. Gender recognition certificates are granted by the gender recognition panel and I understand that there is no great criticism of the process. It is an important step forward from where the law was reluctant to recognise change of gender hitherto.
Does the Minister agree that, while all the issues he has put forward are very practical and implementable, the problem is that the prison system is bursting at the seams? We have more than 86,000 prisoners and staff numbers have been cut year on year. How will officers prevent the homophobic attacks that have been occurring a lot in prisons, and how will they support the systems the Minister has put forward to help?
Our prison officers face a great many challenges and they perform their duties with admirable resolve and skill in often challenging circumstances. They have duties to all prisoners but particular duties to those who may be undergoing gender recognition. They are particularly aware of those challenges and will treat those prisoners with appropriate sensitivity.
My noble friend Lord Patel raised an important issue about overcrowding in prisons. Under those circumstances, the sensitive consideration of to which prison a prisoner is to be allocated is made much more difficult simply because there are not enough vacant prison places for the allocation to take place.
In deciding on the appropriate allocation, there must sometimes be a period of hiatus. Where it is unclear what physical and anatomical risks an individual may present in their contact with other prisoners, they are often held in a secure environment away from other prisoners while their circumstances are clarified, so that a considered decision may be made after advice has been received from appropriate professionals.
That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL] has been committed that they consider the bill in the following order: Clauses 1 to 13, Schedule 1, Clauses 14 to 16, Schedule 2, Clause 17, Schedule 3, Clause 18, Schedule 4, Clauses 19 to 30, Title.
My Lords, before I address the government amendments, I thank the Bill team, my Whip, my noble friend Lord Younger, and the ministerial team in the department for their help and support. I also thank all those who have scrutinised the Bill. I am extremely grateful to noble Lords for their participation in our proceedings in discussions in the Chamber and indeed outside the Chamber, which have been very helpful Although I know that there are points on which some of us do not agree, the debate on the content of this Bill has greatly benefited from the wisdom, experience and insight that a number of noble Lords, sitting on all Benches, have brought to deliberations. I also thank specifically the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for her contribution to the debate and wish her well in her future endeavours as she steps down from the Opposition Front Bench. She has shown incredible commitment and great brio and has made many very valid points, and I am sure that she will continue to do so from the opposition Benches This is an important Bill and although, as I say, we have not agreed on key elements—particularly the early closure of the renewables obligation for onshore wind—we have agreed on many issues, including the need to tackle the threat that climate change constitutes to the environment, our security and our economic prosperity. The Government will decarbonise the economy and will do so cost-effectively We have had a substantial measure of agreement on carbon capture and storage. If nothing else, I think I can take great credit for bringing together my noble friends Lord Ridley and Lord Deben and Members of all sides of the House on the importance of carbon capture and storage. I am most grateful in particular to the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, for agreeing to head a parliamentary advisory group on carbon capture and storage. This will provide advice to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, Amber Rudd, within 12 months of the Act coming into force. I would feel less guilty if I did not know that if I am taking him away from anything, it is from orienteering with his family in his spare time. I know just how busy and able he is, so I am most grateful for that Government Amendment 1 is a minor and technical amendment to Clause 7, which reflects an error that has occurred as a result of other government amendments made on Report. The purpose of Clause 7 is to ensure that where functions are contracted out to the Oil and Gas Authority by relying on Section 69 of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994, they may be contracted out for a period exceeding 10 years. Clause 7 also provides that Welsh Ministers may enter into a contract with the Oil and Gas Authority, authorising that body to exercise the functions of Welsh Ministers Clause 7(1) limits the effect of the rest of the clause to circumstances where the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994 has conferred functions on the Oil and Gas Authority. However, the subsections inserted by our amendments on Report are intended to deal with a set of circumstances where that Act does not apply—that is, a power for Welsh Ministers to enter into an agreement with the Oil and Gas Authority authorising that body to exercise the functions of Welsh Ministers. With that in mind, subsection (1) should apply only to subsection (2) rather than to the whole of the clause. This amendment corrects that error Government Amendment 2 is a minor and technical amendment to ensure that the levy to fund the Oil and Gas Authority is not payable in respect of functions that it carries out under agreement with Welsh Ministers. This is achieved by inserting wording into the list of matters in Clause 14 that the Secretary of State must ensure are not covered when making regulations on the levy. This provides consistency with the current provision which excludes the levy from being charged in respect of functions carried out under Section 69 of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994, for example on behalf of Scottish Ministers. It is also consistent with the approach taken towards fees under Clause 13, where the Oil and Gas Authority will not be able to charge fees for the exercise of functions that it is authorised to exercise either on behalf of the Scottish Government or by virtue of an agreement with Welsh Ministers Government Amendment 4 updates the Bill’s Long Title to ensure that it complies with the parliamentary convention that Bills should leave this House and move to the other place in a proper state. I beg to move.
My Lords, I do not wish to detain the House other than to respond to the opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, and to express gratitude and appreciation for his willingness to engage during the passage of the Bill. On many occasions he was left in an unfortunate position which was not of his own doing—for example, amendments coming in late and assessments not being available—but he has engaged, certainly with my party, in a most courteous manner. Although we were not able to agree on the earlier closure of the onshore wind renewables obligation, our discussions were nevertheless very useful and have no doubt paved the way for further discussions when the Bill reaches another place and comes back to your Lordships’ House The amendments the Minister has just moved are technical and sensible updating measures, but very much appreciated. The first Part of the Bill implements the proposals of the review by Sir Ian Wood, which we were committed to doing when in coalition government. I welcome the fact that this is now taking shape in statutory form, and thank the Minister for his engagement with the Bill.
My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for the way he has conducted the debate inside and outside the Chamber. It has been a genuine pleasure to work with him When the Bill arrived, it appeared relatively simple but did not seem to flow from the understanding we now have of the energy trilemma: having to balance the need for reliable, resilient energy systems with affordability and decarbonisation. The Bill focused almost exclusively on extraction of fossil fuels—something we will continue to do—but contained nothing about the other elements of the trilemma, other than two short clauses on onshore wind. I hope that, following the scrutiny it has received, we now have a better balanced Bill, due in part to the contributions from all sides of the House but also to the way the Minister has engaged, so I thank him for that This is going to be my last official opportunity to speak as the shadow Minister, so I take this opportunity to thank all my colleagues who have worked with me not just on this Bill but on the previous one—this in fact is my second energy Bill. I particularly thank Catherine Johnson, of our research team. This has been a tricky Bill to work on, with lots of detail and condensed timescales, and she has dealt with everything we have thrown at her admirably. I also thank my Whip, the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, all my colleagues on the Front Bench and my colleagues in the shadow DECC team in the other place Everyone knows that energy and climate change are passions of mine, and I have found it an absolute privilege to work on two significant pieces of legislation. We have not always agreed and we have differences, but there is a common core aim: to decarbonise our economy, as the Minister has reiterated. That, we know, is certain, and we seek to do so cost-effectively and with a reliable outcome. The challenge is in working out exactly how to achieve that, and the Bill now is testimony to the subtleties involved in that complex challenge. It has been a great privilege to be part of that remarkable process I shall be moving on, although not very far. I shall return to the Back Benches and follow the passage of this and subsequent Bills that will address this topic, because this is a multi-decadal challenge and no country has all the answers. We are at the forefront of trying to work through some of these difficult issues. As the Minister said yesterday: “There is no silver bullet”.—[Official Report, 3/10/15; col. 1591.] There is no blueprint we can simply pick up and follow. We are inventing the rules as we go. We will make mistakes and will have to revisit issues, but I hope that this House in particular will do so in the spirit of shared endeavour, as we seek to decarbonise cost effectively and to create a reliable system. I hope that we will continue to revisit this issue, improve policy and, most importantly, send clear signals to the outside world, bringing investors with us, maintaining investor confidence and moving forward as a country, united in this endeavour The amendments the Minister has introduced are technical—I am particularly pleased to see that the Long Title is changing to reflect the more balanced approach to the energy trilemma we are grappling with—and I am very grateful to him for tabling them.
My Lords, perhaps I may say how sorry I am to hear that the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, is leaving the Front Bench; it is news to me. I have learnt a lot from listening to her. I do not agree with everything she says, but her grasp of climate issues is unquestioned and she has added a great deal to the debate. I also thank my noble friend for the way he has conducted this complex debate. I hope that the Bill goes to the other place with the clear message from our debates on it, and from yesterday’s debate on electricity resilience, that the whole of our energy policy needs rebalancing. Not that one necessarily wants a lot more energy Bills to come through your Lordships’ House, but I hope that this is just the beginning of a move to a better balance than the current position, which has led to some quite serious muddles. The noble Baroness mentioned one of those last night: that, in our attempts to establish good capacity three, four and five years out, we appear to be ending up with a lot more diesel engines, which is the opposite of what was intended. That arises from the lack of balance between subsidies for wind, which we discussed, and the unwillingness of people to invest in new combined cycle gas turbines That is not strictly connected to the government amendments, but I thought I should register my admiration of the amazing grasp that the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, has of this very complicated subject.
My Lords, I think I speak on behalf of all my colleagues on the Back Benches who have sat through debates on the Bill when I say that we, too, will miss the enthusiasm and inspiration of my noble friend Lady Worthington on the Front Bench, but we know that she will still be with us in different ways, and we look forward to that As I am on my feet, I take this opportunity to ask the Minister to explain. Perhaps I have missed it, but I am still not exactly sure that he has explained when and how the Government will respond to the decision of the House of Lords on the former Clause 66, so that the uncertainty in the industry can be lifted. I hope that he will give us some indication of when and how the Government will respond when he replies.
My Lords, first, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, for his most kind comments. It was a pleasure working with him and his colleagues, as it was with the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. They were not difficult colleagues to deal with on the Bill, and I am sure that it is in many respects a better Bill than it was I also thank my noble friend Lord Howell for his comments and echo what he said about the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. I am not sure that I can echo what he said about more energy Bills—I think I heard a thud from the Bill team behind me when he said that, as they thought of another energy Bill coming down the tracks—but we are looking at crafting a fresh approach on energy policy. This is a fresh Government, so you would expect that. At the moment we are in the middle of a spending review, but we are very conscious as a ministerial team of the importance of crafting a vision on energy policy bearing in mind the three issues that we need to address in the trilemma which is at the heart of our policy In response to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, we responded immediately in a statement. The democratic House of Commons will look at it. I am not a Member of the House of Commons, and it is a matter for the House of Commons. As I made clear, we regard this as a manifesto commitment and all noble Lords will agree that the elected House will express its will and the matter will come back to us in due course.
The Minister is not naive; I have worked with him before he became a Minister and I know that he has a lot of experience and knowledge of these matters. He knows that whatever is put to the House of Commons will be put to it by the Government, and he is a member of the Government, so he must have some idea what they propose and how it will be dealt with.
My Lords, I cannot make it any clearer. It is very clear what we are proposing. It was what we proposed to this House and it is what we will be proposing to the other House, as a Government. It is then for the House of Commons to give its view as the democratic Chamber on that issue. I beg to move.
My Lords, I, too, would like to pay tribute to the Minister himself for the courtesy and patience which he has displayed in dealing with the myriad matters that have been raised. I join the other speakers in expressing my gratitude to him. Equally I would like to offer my best wishes to the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. She will certainly be missed. Her wisdom and her comments—sharp and to the point—will be missed as well The issues to which Amendment 3 is addressed remain important, but it is a tribute to the Minister’s persuasive legal tongue that in the time between Report and now he has persuaded me that the same objectives can be substantially achieved by a different route. Although I prefer the approach that was proposed in the amendment, I will be happy to withdraw it.
My Lords, I also add my thanks to the Minister for the way in which he has dealt with us all through some tricky times, as is always the case with energy Bills in my experience. I also pass on my best wishes to the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. We will certainly miss her knowledge and her boundless enthusiasm, whatever time of night we are here. We will certainly miss that I am really pleased, having heard the opening comments of the Minister, and the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, that the Government are taking seriously the issue of carbon capture and storage. I am not sure that we felt that that was the case when we began this Bill, so I am very pleased that the Minister has been able to move other minds as well on this. I hope that we will hear in due course very good outcomes from the proposals he has made.
My Lords, I add a final word on carbon capture and storage before the amendment is withdrawn. My noble friend Lord Oxburgh has been second to none in bringing home the huge significance of commercial CCS: this would be the way in which the fossil fuels could continue to be burnt without CO2 emissions. That would be a great reassurance. We can look forward to the affordability, reliability and decarbonisation of our energy system I hope I will not strike too sour a note in noting that we learned in earlier parts of the debate that the amount of taxpayers’ money being set aside by the Government for the promotion and experimentation and development of CCS was £1 billion—that is, £1,000 million. That is the most enormous sum of money. It is rather more than the entire budget of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office—and all directed, not to the generality of decarbonisation, but to one technology. It is a sobering thought, if my memory serves me right, that under the Labour Government before 2010 there was an intention to make that figure £3 billion or £4 billion. These are vast sums All I would add is the thought, as this Bill goes on its way, that we at least should remember not only the importance of the climate problem—the importance of achieving affordable and reliable energy and electricity resilience—but we should think about cost. We should always keep in mind that the costs are there and have got to be weighed all the time against the objectives we are trying to achieve. A billion pounds is a lot of money in anybody’s currency, in any language, and at any time—particularly at times when we are struggling in several other areas of public policy to find money desperately to help extremely worthy causes With that marker to this discussion of CCS, about which we have learned as much as we have given in the debates—it is a fascinating subject—I would just end by saying: please let us remember costs as well as benefits.
I hesitated whether to enter into this debate but, on the basis of the last remark, I think that I would like to. I am certainly not rising to my feet to oppose carbon capture and storage, only to make the comment that it has proved an elusive goal, despite significant amounts of time and effort spent on research and development. I make no more comment than that.
I thank my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, for tabling the amendment and for pursuing this aspect of our discussions to this point. I am very grateful to hear from the Minister what I think will be a very effective way forward in the creation of an expert group that will report to the Secretary of State. That is a very welcome development. It seems to be the season of paying tributes, and I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, who, not just through the passage of this Bill but for many years has been a fantastic champion of CCS and the group of technologies that falls within that. I know that he is stepping down as the chairperson of the CCSA fairly soon, but he has played a pivotal role in bringing this technology to the minds of policymakers and decision-makers. I thank and congratulate him for that It is right that we have a brief discussion about CCS in this debate today, because of the Redcar situation, as my noble friend pointed out, which illustrates how important it is that we get our energy and industrial strategy right. There is a risk to dragging our feet and there is an urgency involved in sorting out our policies on how we are going to not just maintain but actively attract industrial players back to the UK to reindustrialise our nation We are home to brilliant engineers and bright graduates, and we have a skilled workforce. We have and need the infrastructure that requires us to have a vibrant primary industry. There are ways in which we can rekindle that industry, but it will not be through trying to push back the tide of green policy, trying to deny that climate change is happening or blaming green taxation for our woes; it will be the reverse. It is like a judo role. We have to go into this subject in a positive way and not just accept that we are going to decarbonise but do so with conviction. If we do that, if we embrace the fact that of course there are engineering solutions that will allow us to continue to produce steel but without the emissions, we can go forward with a positive investment agenda, attract European money and external investment, and persuade Tata that this is the country where it should be developing the steel production plants of tomorrow, now We can do that, because we can act without fear of falling foul of state aid. With every rescue package we try to put together that denies the reality of climate change or seeks to bail out companies that are failing for global trade reasons, rather than anything to do with carbon pricing, we will fall foul of state aid. If, however, we embrace the fact that we need inward investment into zero-carbon and low-carbon production, Europe will be on our side. We can then draw down funds, apply our own funds, and recycle funds out of our carbon pricing policies into an inward investment programme We have a policy tool almost readily designed to do that, in the form of contracts for difference. As they were introduced in the Energy Act 2013, contracts for difference were designed for power investment and power projects. They can be adapted. We can create a contract for difference, strike off the carbon price and make it available to industrial investors. That would derisk the investment and give a guaranteed income to people, so that they could see for certain that they will be able to come to the UK and that at least one of the factors that controls whether or not they will be profitable will be taken care of. If we move with the agenda of Europe towards decarbonisation and take CCS seriously, that is the way out of this problem. To do anything else would simply be to stick our finger into a dyke that will burst: there is no escape from the inexorable move towards a low-carbon agenda. If we want to maintain our industrial activities and investment, we have got to have technologies that allow us to do that with low carbon—and that means CCS. It does not just mean CCS on its own; it can be combined with electrification, once we have a low-carbon power system. But CCS is going to play a huge role As we have discussed previously in this debate, by CCS we do not just mean one technology. It is very similar to renewables; a whole group of technologies falls under that category, some of which produce a usable product. Carbon capture and utilisation is also grouped within this. I am very much looking forward to the creation of this expert group. We could not have chosen a better chairperson for that endeavour, and I hope that I might be able to play a part in my new role as a Back-Bencher. We can explore these issues; we have an opportunity here and should grasp it. We are almost on our own in Europe in understanding how important CCS is and having a populace that supports us in that. Germany needs it but cannot deliver it. The only other countries that are close to us in terms of understanding are Holland and Norway. We can work with them to form a North Sea alliance to make this happen. There is huge potential: the UK is blessed in terms of its ability to embrace this technology. I hope that that endeavour, led by the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, will lead to concrete changes in policy, a new approach, with new vigour and energy, and ultimately to UK plc becoming once again the home of industrial innovation and engineering excellence that will lift people in those communities currently suffering job losses, give them hope for the future and bring all the social and economic benefits that come from that I shall not detain the House any longer, although I am tempted because this is one of the topics I like to talk about a lot. I wish the Minister well in the remaining stages of the Bill and in the associated regulations and legislation that will come his way. There is a lot more work to be done. Some of the topics we have touched on, including the recalibration of the capacity mechanism, are urgent and outstanding areas of work. We look forward to hearing more about the CFD allocations in the autumn. There are big challenges outside the UK that the Minister and his department will be grappling with. Paris is upon us, and I am looking forward to that being a historic move forward in the world starting to take this issue seriously and moving forward on a united front. Europe has a huge part to play in this My final word is that on energy policy the best way to engage with Europe is to engage positively with new ideas, take our vision to Europe and persuade it that our technology-neutral, all-of-the-above, focus-on-least-cost way is the right way to do this. We have some great tools and great examples of policies that work. We must work with Europe and persuade our colleagues that ours is the right path. We should not seek to disengage. We can benefit hugely from Europe, and it can benefit from us. I hope that that will be the basis on which we continue. For now, I say thank you and goodbye.
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh. As has been indicated, the noble Lord is the right person to chair this group and I have no doubt that he will do so in the very fair way that he approaches all these proceedings. The remit of the committee has been worked through with the noble Lord, and it is for him to decide who goes on to it, but I am sure it will be done on a cross-party basis. I very much hope that the noble Baroness can be a part of it, but that is entirely a matter for the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, for her kind comments. I agree with my noble friend Lord Howell that a lot of money is being put into carbon capture and storage. That is because the department regards it as a top priority. We have made sure that that is reflected in the Bill. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Young, and I am glad he has come in with words of support for the main aim of the Bill which is to maximise economic recovery in the North Sea. That remains very much the thrust of what the Wood review sought to do, and it is an important part of moving us to a low-carbon future. We cannot get there instantly and we are going to have to depend on gas. It is far better that it is British gas with British jobs and all the safety features and so on that we ensure through the North Sea. It also provides us with an historic opportunity for CCS. We have already invested £130 million in this since 2011, and we are committed to spending a lot more during this Parliament. We already have two projects—White Rose and Peterhead—moving forward. CCS is a proven technology. There are 14 plants globally and a further eight under construction The noble Baroness’s contribution was a typical tour de force. It is absolutely right that we have to see how we can provide incentives for the steel industry to decarbonise, but I am sure she recognises that the trilemma is never more evident than in dealing with the steel industry. I know because I have been at meetings where a lot of MPs of all parties, including the Labour Party, have been pressing us to do something about the energy price. It is a factor, but it is certainly not the only factor. The noble Baroness is right that there are many other factors in play and we have to move towards a low-carbon solution. I am sure that she understands that we have to do what we can through Europe to see how we can provide assistance, but she is right that this is not the sum total of what needs to be done. I believe that much more can be done on the procurement front. In the department, we are looking at what we can do about public procurement with the much more relaxed rules that are now adopted in Europe. I think the UK has been the first country to have its rules cleared through this new procedure.
My Lords, I had not expected this amendment to give rise to the little discussion that we have had. It has of course reminded me that I ought, once again, to have declared my interest as president of the Carbon Capture and Storage Association I respectfully remind the noble Lord, Lord Howell, with whom I so commonly agree on these matters, that CCS is expensive, but if we turn our thoughts back to the report of my noble friend Lord Stern, the sum which is committed to CCS is a tiny fraction of the sums that will be at risk if we do not. It is not nice to have to spend money, but it is the lesser of two evils I conclude by thanking noble Lords on all sides for the kind remarks that they have made and by endorsing the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. It is essential that we be seen in Europe and, more widely, abroad to have embraced the low-carbon agenda, and that we are not being dragged, screaming and kicking, into that area, because we will have much more influence in that case. Indeed, it will be much better for British industry, for which there will be many opportunities if we get this technology right, and get it right quickly A succession of Governments has not been, shall I say, all that dextrous in handling CCS in this country. I think that, had things been handled a little differently, not just by the previous Government but by the Government before that, we would not be in this situation today. However, we are where we are, and so we must press on with enthusiasm and good grace. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary in the House of Commons earlier today “I should like to make a Statement about the draft investigatory powers Bill and our commitment to providing a new law consolidating and updating our investigatory powers, strengthening our safeguards, and establishing a world-leading oversight regime We live in a digital age. Technology is having a profound effect on society. Computers are central to our everyday lives. Big data are reshaping the way we live and work. The internet has brought us tremendous opportunities to prosper and interact with others. But a digital society also presents us with challenges. The same benefits enjoyed by us all are being exploited by serious and organised criminals, online fraudsters and terrorists The threat is clear. In the past 12 months alone, six significant terrorist plots have been disrupted here in the UK, as well as a number of further plots overseas. The frequency and cost of cyberattacks are increasing, with 90% of large organisations suffering an information security breach last year. The Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre estimates that 50,000 people in this country are downloading indecent images of children The task of law enforcement and the security and intelligence agencies has become vastly more demanding in this digital age. It is right, therefore, that those who are charged with protecting us should have the powers they need to do so, but it is the role of government and Parliament to ensure that there are limits to those powers Let me be clear: the draft Bill that we are publishing today is not a return to the draft communications data Bill of 2012. It will not include powers to force UK companies to capture and retain third-party internet traffic from companies based overseas. It will not compel overseas communications service providers to meet our domestic retention obligations for communications data. And it will not ban encryption or do anything to undermine the security of people’s data. The substance of all of the recommendations by the joint scrutiny committee that examined that draft Bill has been accepted Today’s Bill represents a significant departure from the proposals of the past. Today, we are setting out a modern, legal framework that brings together current powers in a clear and comprehensible way. It is a new Bill that provides some of the strongest protections and safeguards anywhere in the democratic world and an approach that sets new standards for openness, transparency and oversight. This new legislation will underpin the work of law enforcement and the security and intelligence agencies for years to come. It is their licence to operate, with the democratic approval of Parliament, to protect our national security and the public’s safety. This Bill responds to three independent reviews published earlier this year: the first from the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament; the second from David Anderson QC, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation; and the third from the Independent Surveillance Review convened by the Royal United Services Institute. All three reviews made it clear that the use of investigatory powers is a vital part of protecting the public. They all endorsed the current powers available to the police and law enforcement agencies as both necessary and proportionate, and they all agreed that the legal framework governing those powers needed updating. While considering those reviews, we have engaged with technical experts, academics, civil liberties groups and communications service providers in the UK and overseas. I also met charities supporting people affected by the crimes that these powers are used to investigate Copies of the draft Bill will be available in the Vote Office. Our proposals will now be subject to further consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny by a Joint Committee of Parliament. A revised Bill will then be introduced to Parliament in the spring, where it will receive careful parliamentary scrutiny As the House knows, the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act contains a sunset clause which means that legislation will cease to have effect from 31 December 2016. It is our intention to pass the new law before that date This Bill will govern all the powers available to law enforcement, the security and intelligence agencies and the Armed Forces to acquire the content of communications or communications data. These include the ability to retain and acquire communications data to be used as evidence in court and to advance investigations; the ability to intercept the contents of communications in order to acquire sensitive intelligence to tackle terrorist plots and serious and organised crimes; the use of equipment interference powers to obtain data covertly from computers; and the use of these powers by the security and intelligence agencies in bulk to identify the most serious threats to the UK from overseas and to rapidly establish links between suspects in the UK It cannot be right that, today, the police could find an abducted child if the suspects were using mobile phones to co-ordinate their crime, but if they were using social media or communications apps they would be out of reach. Such an approach defies all logic and ignores the realities of today’s digital age. So this Bill will also allow the police to identify which communications services a person or device has connected to—so-called internet connection records. Some have characterised this power as law enforcement having access to people’s full web browsing histories. Let me be clear: this is simply wrong. An internet connection record is a record of the communications service that a person has used, not a record of every web page they have accessed. So, if someone has visited a social media website, an internet connection record will show only that they accessed that site, not the particular pages they looked at, who they communicated with or what was said. It is simply the modern equivalent of an itemised phone bill. Law enforcement agencies would not be able to make a request for the purpose of determining, for example, whether someone had visited a mental health website, a medical website or even a news website. They would be able to make a request only for the purpose of determining whether someone had accessed a communications website or an illegal website or to resolve an IP address, where it is necessary and proportionate to do so in the course of a specific investigation. Strict limits will apply to when and how those data can be accessed, over and above those safeguards that apply to other forms of communications data, and we will ban local authorities from accessing such data I have announced today our intention to ensure that the powers available to law enforcement and the agencies are clear for everyone to understand. The transparency report that I am publishing today will help, and copies of that will also be available in the Vote Office. However, there remain some powers that successive Governments have considered too sensitive to disclose for fear of revealing capabilities to those who mean us harm. I am clear that we must now reconcile this with our ambition to deliver greater openness and transparency. So the Bill will make explicit provision for all of the powers available to the security and intelligence agencies to acquire data in bulk. That will include, not only bulk interception provided under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act and which is vital to the work of GCHQ, but also the acquisition of bulk communications data, relating to both the UK and overseas This is not a new power. It will replace the power under Section 94 of the Telecommunications Act 1984, under which successive Governments have approved the security and intelligence agencies’ access to such communications data from communication service providers. This has allowed them to thwart a number of attacks here in the UK. In 2010, when a group of terrorists was plotting attacks in the UK, including on the London Stock Exchange, the use of bulk communications data played a key role in MI5’s investigation. It allowed investigators to uncover the terrorist network and to understand its plans. This led to the disruption of its activities and successful convictions against all the group’s members I have also published the agencies’ handling arrangements relating to this power, which set out the existing robust safeguards and independent oversight. These make clear that the data do not include the content of communications or internet connection records. The Bill will put this power on a more explicit footing and it will be subject to the same robust safeguards that apply to other bulk powers The House will know that the powers I have described today are currently overseen by the Interception of Communications Commissioner, the Intelligence Services Commissioner and the Chief Surveillance Commissioner, all of whom are serving or former senior judges. This regime worked in the past, but I am clear that we need to significantly strengthen it to govern how these powers are authorised and overseen in the future. So we will replace the existing oversight with a powerful and independent investigatory powers commissioner. This will be a senior judge, supported by a team of expert inspectors with the authority and resources to effectively, and visibly, hold the intelligence agencies and law enforcement to account. These will be world-leading oversight arrangements Finally, I turn to authorisation. Authorising warrants is one of the most important means by which I and other Secretaries of State hold the security and intelligence agencies to account for their actions. In turn, we are accountable to this House and, through its elected representatives, to the public. As the House knows, the first duty of government is the protection of the public, and it is a responsibility this Government take extremely seriously. While there was a good deal of agreement in the three independent reviews I have referenced, all three reached different conclusions on the question of who should authorise interception warrants. The Intelligence and Security Committee supported authorisation by a Secretary of State; David Anderson said judges should carry out the authorisation; and RUSI said the authorisation of warrants should have a judicial element, but also recognised the important role of the Secretary of State. I have considered the very good arguments put forward by the three reviews. My response is one that I hope the House agrees will provide the reassurance of both democratic accountability and judicial accountability As now, the Secretary of State will need to be satisfied that an activity is necessary and proportionate before a warrant can be issued. But in future, the warrant will not come into force until it has been formally approved by a judge. This will place a double lock on the authorisation of our most intrusive investigatory powers: democratic accountability, through the Secretary of State, to ensure that our intelligence agencies operate in the interests of the citizens of this country; and the public reassurance of independent, judicial authorisation. This will be one of the strongest authorisation regimes anywhere in the world For parliamentarians, we will go even further. The Bill will for the first time put into law the Prime Minister’s commitment that in any case where it is proposed to intercept the communications of a parliamentarian—including Members of the House of Commons, Members of the House of Lords, UK MEPs and the Members of the devolved legislatures—the Prime Minister would also be consulted The legislation we are proposing today is unprecedented. It will provide unparalleled openness and transparency about our investigatory powers. It will provide the strongest safeguards and world-leading oversight arrangements. And it will give the men and women of our security and intelligence agencies and our law enforcement agencies, who do so much to keep us safe and secure, the powers they need to protect our country I commend the Statement to the House”.
I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made in the Commons earlier today on the draft investigatory powers Bill, which the Government intend should receive Royal Assent before the sunset clause in the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act 2014 comes into effect at the end of next year. An important stage in the consideration of this Bill will be undertaken by the pre-legislative scrutiny committee and its findings will, I am sure, be awaited with considerable interest We have also had a number of different reports on this issue in the last few months including from, but by no means only from, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, David Anderson QC, the Intelligence and Security Committee, and the review convened by the Royal United Services Institute. All three of those reports supported an overall review of the current legislative framework for the use of investigatory powers and the replacement of legislation such as the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 The Anderson report was commissioned on the basis of an opposition amendment when Parliament was asked to legislate very quickly to introduce the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act 2014. We argued then that it was the right time for a thorough review of the existing legal framework to be conducted as we, and others, no longer felt that the current arrangements were fit for purpose. Fast-developing technology and the growing threats we face internationally and domestically have left our fragmented laws behind and made the job of our police and security services, to whom we all owe a considerable debt of gratitude, harder We support the Government in their attempt to update the law in this important and sensitive area, particularly since the Statement appears to indicate that the Government have listened to at least some of the concerns that were expressed about the original proposed legislation put forward during the last Parliament. However, we hope that this Statement and the draft legislation does not prove to be a bit like some Budget speeches where it is only afterwards that some of the detail proves to put a rather less acceptable gloss on aspects of some of the changes and measures proposed Although it is becoming something of a cliché, the need is to secure the appropriate balance between the requirement to safeguard national security and the safety of our citizens, and the requirement to protect civil liberties and personal privacy, which is surely one of the hallmarks of a democracy compared to a dictatorship. The extent to which the proposals set out in the Statement, and in the draft legislation, achieve that difficult balance is clearly going to be the subject of much discussion during the consideration of the Bill. However, the Statement indicates stronger safeguards than were previously being proposed, including in the important area of judicial authorisation, and it appears as though in broad terms that difficult balance may be about right. We will examine carefully the detail of the Bill and where necessary seek to improve the safeguards to increase the all-important factor of public trust The proposals set out today do not of course relate just to national security. They also have relevance to preventing serious and abhorrent crimes and apprehending those who commit them, including murder, major fraud and child sexual exploitation. In that regard, can the Minister confirm that the far-reaching powers of content interception will be used only for the most serious crimes, as applies under RIPA? The Statement indicated that the detailed web browsing of individuals will not be accessible, which we support, but will the Minister set out precisely what internet activity of an individual will be accessible without a warrant Clearly, vulnerability of information has gone up the agenda of public concern in light of the attack on TalkTalk. Since data retention and bulk storage were referred to in the Statement, what steps do the Government intend to take to ensure the security of bulk storage of data by public and private bodies The Statement referred to the change of approach on encryption from the possible ban previously mentioned by the Prime Minister, and reference was also made to communication providers and legal duties. Are the Government satisfied that they can make any such legal requirements stick against some of the largest and most popular online names, many of whom have headquarters overseas The Statement also referred to the protection of communications for parliamentarians. Will that protection also apply to people communicating with parliamentarians, whether on personal matters or on providing information? What protection arrangements will there be for sources of information used by journalists? The Statement said that, if it were proposed to intercept the communications of a parliamentarian, the Prime Minister would also be consulted. What in this context does “consult” mean? Does it mean that the Prime Minister would have to give his or her agreement The Statement also addressed the issue of authorisation, and set out a two-stage process which is clearly intended to address the twin points of accountability to Parliament on the one hand and sufficient independence from the political process on the other in order to build trust—an issue referred to by David Anderson QC in his report. What will be the powers of the judges involved in the authorisation of warrants process in view of the reference in the Statement to a warrant being “formally” approved by a judge, and will judges have to sign off warrants in all cases? Will the information made available to the judge in order to make his or her decision be the same as the information made available to the Home Secretary? Will the criteria against which the judge will make a decision be the same as the criteria against which the Home Secretary makes her decision, or will the judge have a different remit? Who, or what body, will appoint the judges who will be involved in the authorisation of warrants process? How long is it expected to take to go through the double-lock authorisation process outlined in the Statement, and what will happen if there is an emergency requiring immediate authorisation of a warrant One of the key themes of the report by David Anderson was that a core objective for the renewal of legislation concerning investigatory powers ought to be public trust from all sections of our community in the use of those powers by government agencies, since public consent to intrusive laws depends on people trusting the authorities to keep them safe and not to spy needlessly on them. That in turn, as David Anderson said in his report, requires knowledge, at least in outline, of what powers are liable to be used, and visible authorisation and oversight mechanisms in which the wider public can have confidence. The Bill will go through its stages in the Commons before coming to this House. It is, of course, a matter for the other place to determine, but one can only express the hope that a Bill of this importance will have received full and proper consideration before it gets to this House, although I am sure there will be no lack of willingness in this place to make up for any deficiencies in that regard and to ensure that the powers being sought are necessary and proportionate in relation to the issues and potential dangers they are intended to combat and address.
My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made by the Home Secretary in the other place. Clearly, we would like to be reassured by the Home Secretary’s claim that the draft Bill is not a return to the draft Communications Data Bill 2012, which the Liberal Democrats in the coalition Government quite rightly blocked, and from which this Government now appear to want to distance themselves There are some clear and very welcome changes proposed, including judicial authorisation of interception warrants and a promise not to interfere with encryption, but we must look very carefully at the detail of what is being proposed, particularly in relation to what the Home Secretary calls, “internet connection records”. Clearly, there has been a great deal of concern about communications service providers storing everyone’s web browsing history and handing over this information to the police and the security services. While the Home Secretary says that the proposed Bill would not allow that, I will probe very gently whether that is the case, so as to dispel concerns that this is just smoke and mirrors Intuitively, the Home Secretary must be right that if the police can use mobile phone data to find an abducted child, they should be able to do so if criminals are now using social media or communication apps instead of cellular data. Our concerns are: first, whether this is technically feasible; secondly, whether it is technically feasible without prohibitive costs to communications service providers; and, thirdly, whether it is possible without the risk of disproportionate intrusion into innocent people’s privacy, whether by the forces of good or by hackers such as those who breached TalkTalk’s security, as the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned Talking to experts, I was told that communications service providers would be unable to tell the police or the security services whether someone had used the internet to communicate, as opposed to just browsing, without storing content. This requires billions of pounds of hardware investment, and even then it may not be possible to tell the difference between browsing and communication. Determined suppliers of applications that enable people to communicate covertly could disguise internet communication as passive browsing, for example. Will the Minister say whether the Government know that it is technically possible for internet service providers to provide a record of the communications services a person has used without a record of every page they have accessed? What would be the cost to communications providers? Has a risk assessment been undertaken of the possibility that, having stored sensitive personal information, that information might be accessed unlawfully? Finally, in 2005 the police, backed by the then Labour Government, asked for a power to detain terror suspects without charge for up to 90 days—a power that the security services did not ask for and that Parliament, quite rightly, rejected. Will the Minister also confirm whether the requirement to store internet communication records has come from the police alone or from the police and the security services?
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for his broad welcome of this. He is right to point to the antecedents of this whole process. It rests very much in a cross-party approach. We recognise the seriousness of the problems we face. This legislation is important to see in a context. Although it is very different from the draft communications data Bill in 2012, it is part of a long string and timeline of argument and debate that we have had. All of the recommendations in the report of my noble friend Lord Blencathra’s Joint Committee on that Bill have been accepted here. More than 200 recommendations were made in the three reviews to which the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, referred. They are also reflected in the draft Bill. He is absolutely right on that I turn specifically to the questions that the noble Lord asked. He asked whether the serious crime threshold will still be there. The answer is yes, absolutely. Warrantry will be undertaken in the same way as it currently is. There is no change in that. Bulk storage of data is a critical issue currently being discussed with the communications service providers. That covers some of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, raised. I will come back to that. We are in constant dialogue with them. My noble friend Lady Shields, who is the Minister for Internet Safety and Security, plays a crucial role in that dialogue, as did Sir Nigel Sheinwald, who produced his report last year. That work with the industry is ongoing In respect of parliamentarians, there was the Wilson doctrine in 1966, which was about wire-tapping. I do not want to have a whole debate about that but it is quite interesting to go back and look at what the Wilson doctrine actually was: effectively a requirement, as I understand it, for the Prime Minister to make a statement when communications had been intercepted, at a time when it was appropriate for national security to allow him to do so. That additional element—requiring the Prime Minister to be consulted—is a very real safeguard. In terms of the appointment of judges, we are in dialogue with the Ministry of Justice, as would be expected, and also with the Lord Chief Justice, to ensure that the appointments process is done correctly and we identify the specific skills that we are looking for in the team of judges. We anticipate that about seven judges—judicial commissioners—will be required On the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, about social media, what we are really getting at here—what the police and the security services are saying—is that wireless telephony, in the space of just five years, has gone from a position where a mobile phone was the way in which people communicated, to one in which they now use Skype, WhatsApp and other social media. A third of calls are made through internet service providers, and everything suggests that that proportion will increase. That is why the argument for going for the internet records—specifically which app or site they were using to communicate—is so important The noble Lord’s question quite rightly referred to the fact that when David Anderson did his review he said, “If the case was made”. The noble Lord is right to pick up on that point: we discussed it a lot. That is why the operational case for the powers that was put forward by the police is also being published today. It is available on the website, but I can make sure that copies are available in the Printed Paper Office, if that is helpful In regard to the costs of doing this, an impact assessment accompanies the Bill. That puts the cost to the industry at about £174 million over 10 years. Those costs, and the impact assessment, will be precisely the types of detail that the process of pre-legislative scrutiny should thrash out and test. I hope that it will do so.
My Lords, I start on a rather personal note by saying to my noble friend how pleased I am—I think that the House will be too—that he is still in the job that he was doing so well before the last election. The House knows the care and consideration that he gives to this extremely difficult issue. Those of us who have tried to accelerate the process to get to where he is trying to get to now recognise the tremendous efforts that he made at that time I think that the House had better be ready for a pretty busy July and October, because the interest in this Bill is going to be massive. If we have a joint scrutiny committee of both Houses, then it goes to the Commons and then comes to the Lords, I think that the end of the summer is the earliest we can expect to see it here. My worry all the way through has been about the delay this involves and the risks facing this country. I was struck by the fact that two speakers on the Front Benches opposite both referred to TalkTalk, as though this was an interesting new development illustrating a new problem. I wonder what else may have happened before July and October that will condition our thinking about the range and number of threats that we face. I hope that I am not being too pessimistic, but we know that this is an extremely dangerous world I support the introduction of judicial authorisation, but, as somebody who used to sign a number of these warrants in my executive capacity as Secretary of State, the judges will, without question, need help in the early stages in understanding some of the background issues about national security with which they may not initially be familiar.
I am grateful to my noble friend. Of course, I recognise the work that he undertook, not only as chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee, which led a lot of the work on this area, but thinking back to those heady days earlier this year when we were taking through the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, which is now on the statute book. He is right about the urgency. DRIPA has a sunset clause of December. Sometimes I think that the House is at its best when its mind is focused. I think there is a general consensus that we need to get this in place so that those powers continue to be available and that they are strengthened and made more accountable. I believe the timetable that has been set out is quite achievable but it will require a lot of focus.
My Lords, I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord King, about the Minister. I am very glad that he is here. He has heard all the arguments before; he is familiar with the pressure from people who have been involved in these sorts of operations. The issue that the House will have to be absolutely clear on is the matter of trust. Do the public trust the idea that these data about internet access are safe? The worst thing that could happen is that those data could be penetrated and leaked. When we and the various committees come to consider this, that aspect of the security of the data that are being retained by the state or the internet service providers will be crucial in defining whether or not the public trust what the Government, the agencies and the police are doing. Without that public trust, we fail.
The noble Lord is absolutely right, of course, and brings his wealth of experience to this area. That is why David Anderson was absolutely right when he titled his report, which has been so influential on our thinking, A Question of Trust. He said that that went to the heart of it. It is also worth noting that, on page 33 of that report, David Anderson reflected some opinion poll data, which showed that there was a very high level of public trust when it came to prioritising, “reducing the threat posed by terrorists and serious criminals”— 71% supported the initiatives that were being taken. However, we cannot take that support for granted. The transparency and openness of the process through this stage of the legislation will be important in strengthening it.
My Lords, I think it is necessary that we take the new powers and I broadly welcome the additional safeguards that the Minister has outlined, but can I ask him specifically about the process of authorising interception warrants? Just like the noble Lord, Lord King, I have had responsibility for signing these warrants in the past, and I would like to know why the Minister and his colleagues in government have felt unable to accept the recommendations of the Intelligence and Security Committee in this regard. I believe that issues of national security are properly matters for Ministers, and I am not entirely sure that it makes sense to ask the judges to stand in the shoes of Ministers when it comes to important decisions about national security. Far from this being a double lock, it is quite clear from what the Home Secretary has said in the other place that in future it will be judges, not Ministers, who decide whether or not these warrants in relation to national security matters are going to be brought into effect. I am not persuaded that that is the right decision.
In many ways, we are starting from similar positions. The noble Lord believes that the people who are accountable to the public for the decision, if it goes right or wrong, should be the ones who sign the paper. However, it was very clear through the process of the reviews, which we have listened to, and the other work that previous committees have done in looking at this matter that the level of public confidence would be strengthened if there was a judicial element to it. If there were an imminent threat, the Home Secretary would retain the right to be able to issue the warrant herself, but it would be subject to a judicial review within five days. That ability is there and the two-pronged approach is probably about the right level, considering where the public mood is at this time.
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for his kind remarks about the Joint Committee I was privileged to chair four years ago. I think we were the first to point out that RIPA was not longer fit for purpose. It is clear from the Home Secretary’s Statement, from glancing at the section headings in the Bill and from looking at the adoption of the Anderson report and the other independent reports, that this Bill is a far cry from the original Bill that we scrutinised. To me, the crucial thing is that any extraordinary powers we grant to the security services and the police are not wrapped up and hidden in some obscure clause so that we are not quite sure what we are voting for, but are set out clearly so that Members in both Houses have a chance to vote for or against them as the case may be. That transparency should reassure the public that we are giving the security services and the police the appropriate powers, approved by Parliament Will the Minister consider a couple of additions I have spotted at the moment? I think we need a technical advisory committee that will look rapidly for new technological or internet gizmos or whatsits and be able to recommend to the commissioners that the Bill needs to be amended. Then we need something, such as the super-affirmative procedure, to amend the Act rapidly. Otherwise we will be in the same position as with RIPA, which gets older and older and is not updated all the time. We need those changes, I suggest.
My noble friend is right, but that might not be necessary. I appreciate that the Bill has only just been published and is 300 pages long, but it has been worded as far as possible to allow for future proofing of the legislation. My noble friend Lady Shields plays an important role as a Minister looking at this area with her immense technical knowledge. I personally have benefitted from that knowledge in preparing for the Statement. A final point is that we have a plethora of different powers spread across different bits of legislation and a key driver of the Bill is that it is a great opportunity to bring them into one place so that they can be subject to that kind of scrutiny. I think that that is another element that we will strengthen along the lines of what my noble friend proposed.
My Lords, I, too, welcome the continuity and the expertise that the Minister brings, as well as his charity fundraising. Perhaps I may just pick up on a point that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, touched on: what exactly will the judicial powers be, and what evidence will the judges have? It was suggested today that the judge will be able to reject only on judicial review principles—that is, to ensure that the procedure was correct—but will not be able to look at the substantive evidence available to the Home Secretary. Will the Minister please clarify that? Secondly, and continuing a point that my noble friend Lord Paddick made, what confidence do the Government have that all ISPs can maintain the security of data?
In terms of the judicial role, the judge will have sight of the same information as the Secretary of State currently has—which is the justification. Of course, the judge will be able to subject that justification to testing and review in terms of the process and content and ask them to go back and get more if required. That is certainly what the Secretary of State does at present. Those elements will be important in strengthening that part of the process. Again, however, that can be fleshed out in the pre-legislative scrutiny.
My Lords, perhaps I may remind my noble friend and the House that there are four parliamentarians who would have wished to engage in these debates but are not able to do so: Airey Neave, the Reverend Robert Bradford, Tony Berry and Ian Gow. I hope it will be remembered by all Members of this House that they have no human rights whatever. They were all extinguished by a lack of the intelligence to prevent their murder.
My noble friend is absolutely right. We talk a lot about liberty and security but in order to enjoy our liberty we must first have security. That is what this is about. I mentioned in the Statement that six terrorist attacks have been thwarted by the outstanding work of our security and law enforcement services over the past year alone. The transparency report which I am publishing here today shows that some 299 people have been arrested in the past year on terrorism-related offences. It shows that the threat is real and the powers are necessary.
My Lords, although I agree with the noble Lord, Lord King, that it is a delight to have the Minister in his post, I would have preferred to be in that post myself after the election—but that is a different issue This is not before time. It has taken a long time, but we should all celebrate today, as this is good news. We hopefully get rid of the old RIPA, which is discredited—not surprisingly, because it is so old—and of emergency legislation which we passed only because we got ourselves in such a muddle about this. Here is a real opportunity for us to set a gold standard in the ability to protect our people and ensure that we can track these ghastly people who wish to kill us and do us harm, but also to pay due regard to the privacy of the individual. With pre-legislative scrutiny of all the issues we have been discussing and a White Paper, and with sufficient time, there is no reason why we should not be able to do this. We have to realise that we must not delude ourselves: there are people out there who wish to kill us. We know they want to kill us, and there are a large number of them. This is a real threat. Not doing this would be madness I get annoyed, I am afraid, by some comments which seem to indicate that our own security forces and agencies are the bad guys and the ones who are threatening us. That is just not true. Some people use emotive language, such as “snoopers’ charter”. The emotive language I would use is that if we do not do something like this, those people are giving the people who wish to kill us a licence to kill—but let us not use emotive language and instead look at this in a balanced way. It has to be done and it is very important that it is done Have we really thought about some way of ensuring that there is better data protection, not just in this Bill, but more broadly? We are not as good at it as we should be, which is a real worry. We have to make sure we do it, because people are concerned when data are held anywhere. It is no reason not to do this, but we do need to have some way of making sure that is dealt with.
The noble Lord is absolutely right. This is why it is important to work with communication service providers: this has to be a partnership between the industry, the law enforcement agencies and the Government to make sure that we get this right and that there is a way of doing it which is secure. He is right about the threat being real. I have heard some of the reports from meetings which the Home Secretary has had with families who have been victims of the online sexual exploitation of children. They feel exactly the same way as my noble friend Lord Tebbit feels in terms of the actions which could be taken to ensure that their children and their loved ones do not have to suffer the exploitation which they have suffered at the hands of these heinous criminals.
My Lords, this has been described as a tidying-up Bill, and the reason for it is that the security services and the police have overstepped the mark and misused their past powers. The noble Lord, Lord Blair, talked about trust. What guarantees can the Government give that the security services and the police will not overstep these powers as well?
That is one of the reasons why we have put in place a much stronger, clearer and well-resourced investigatory powers commissioner. That will also give an opportunity for cases to be brought to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal. There will be more transparency and openness there for people to take advantage of if they feel that we have got the decision wrong.
Can I press the Minister on what the Government intend by judicial authorisation? The Statement that the Minister repeated says that, “in future, the warrant will not come into force until it has been formally approved by a judge” However, in Clause 19 and many other places, the Bill speaks of a judicial review test, which, as has already been explained, is a matter of assessing reasonableness and the formality of procedures. The real question is whether the Government intend that the judge will have the power to countermand the initial decision of the Secretary of State if the judge considers that the warrant is either unnecessary or disproportionate.
We have stated that there is a double lock, and it is just that. Without both the judge and the Secretary of State giving their approval, it simply cannot happen. Some details are being published today in terms of draft codes of practice, and more information will be fleshed out, in co-operation with the Ministry of Justice, the Lord Chief Justice and, crucially of course, the judicial commissioners themselves, as to how this process will work in an effective and speedy way.
If the judge, in the explanation just given by the Minister, can effectively veto the Secretary of State’s decision, where does accountability lie?
Accountability lies in that it was the Secretary of State, first, who made the decision and that is then checked by a judge. That would be the element of public accountability in that circumstance, but we are talking particularly about warrants which are required in relation to intercept, which is the most intrusive form of investigation power, not necessarily the communications data.
My Lords, shortly after being introduced to this House I had the temerity to start raising concerns about the plethora of unfit legislation covering digital surveillance powers and the ineffective controls and oversight over their use. Initially, my questions in this Chamber were met with a mixture of stonewalling by Ministers and ridicule from certain noble Lords connected to the security establishment.
Where is your question?
It will come. I am gratified to see that all parts of the House now recognise that the current laws are hopelessly flawed and that we need to start with a clean sheet of paper to build a fresh legislative framework to cover this important and contentious area. When I start to read this 370-page document I shall do so in the hope that the detail can live up to the billing the Home Secretary gave it a few hours ago. From listening to her replies to questions, I know already that there are several concerns, including a forthcoming deadly embrace with the industry over encryption.
Question!
I shall save my questions for the Select Committee, but in the mean time I shall ask just one. What is the timetable for the forming of the Joint Committee and when do the Government hope to receive its report?
The Joint Committee is in the process of being formed, through the usual channels. It is hoped that that will happen in the next few weeks. It is hoped that it will have produced its report by the spring and that a revised Bill, if it is necessary to revise the Bill, will then be published for consideration in the other place.
We talked about trust and getting the balance right in the Bill, but it works both ways. Yes, of course, the public have a right to feel confident that there will be controls on the way in which these investigatory powers are used, but they are just as concerned, as the Minister said, to ensure that we understand the very real threats to the security of this country, not just from terrorism or paedophilia, but from significant areas of crime where the internet is being used almost unchecked at the moment. It is not a question of our security services overstepping the mark; with the current legislation they do not have the ability to deal with the very real threats. When we talk about balance and trust, it is on both sides. I would welcome the Minister’s views.
I totally agree—that is why the police have put out such a thorough operational case for this. It is very important that, as well as explaining the threats we face, whether they be terrorist, child sexual exploitation or financial crime, we point out that the process through which this legislation is going is almost unprecedented in its openness and transparency. What will come thereafter, should the Bill pass all its stages through the House, will be a much strengthened, much more clear and transparent approach in which we can all have trust and confidence.
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 41 and 42, 44, 47 to 49 and 62, which are all in my name. They all relate to the donations and loans controls that will apply to campaigners at the referendum Amendment 33 is a technical amendment which, alongside Amendments 47 and 62, ensures that the Bill will contain one definition of “referendum period” rather than multiple, identical definitions. These minor amendments are necessary as a result of a more substantive amendment, Amendment 48 Amendment 48 addresses an issue with the rules relating to loans and other financial transactions that benefit political parties that register as permitted participants at the referendum. To keep matters straightforward, I will henceforth refer to these transactions simply as loans Political parties are eligible to become permitted participants at referendums under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000—PPERA. If they do, they will be subject to the same controls on referendum spending as apply to other permitted participants, but the major parties will not be subject to the same controls on donations and loans. This is simply because political parties other than minor parties are already subject to ongoing controls on donations and loans under PPERA. The exclusion of these political parties from the donation and loan rules at referendums is not a reflection of their having a different status to other permitted participants at a referendum. It is merely an administrative measure to avoid double counting and excessive compliance burdens, given their ongoing requirements in relation to donations and loans Under PPERA, the list of those eligible to make donations or loans to political parties is the same as the list of those who are eligible donors and lenders in relation to permitted participants. However, for the EU referendum, the Bill adds to the list of those eligible to make donations to permitted participants. It does this at the recommendation of the Electoral Commission, to bring the list into line with the list of non-party campaigners who are eligible to register under PPERA for election purposes, as amended by the Transparency of Lobbying Act. The list has also been extended to take account of the inclusion of Gibraltar in the referendum. For example, Gibraltar electors will be eligible to make donations to permitted participants, as will royal chartered bodies and Scottish partnerships The Bill also introduces controls on loans to permitted participants. The list of eligible lenders is the same as that for eligible donors for the purpose of the referendum. As political parties are regulated separately, it is necessary similarly to extend the list of eligible donors and lenders to political parties that register as permitted participants. An amendment made in the other place effected this measure in relation to donations. This now forms paragraph 22 of Schedule 1. Amendment 48 completes this work by extending the eligibility to make loans to political parties acting as permitted participants to the newly added individuals and bodies. As with the rules for donations to political parties, this eligibility will be time limited and will apply only during the referendum period This is about having a level playing field in the run-up to the referendum. It must be right that political parties that register to campaign be able to accept donations and loans from the same sources that are available to other permitted participants Amendment 48 contains an additional control to prevent the terms of a loan agreement allowed under it being varied to increase the value of the loan. This aims to prevent political parties using loans entered into as a permitted participant as a means of borrowing more money after the referendum, which they would not normally be able to receive in their capacity as a political party under the ongoing party funding rules. Amendment 42 relates to the changes made through Amendment 48, which I have just spoken to, and the similar amendment made in the other place in relation to donations to political parties. These ensure that the rules on who can donate and lend money to political parties that register as permitted participants are the same as for all other permitted participants. In effect, however, this means that during the referendum period, political parties that register as permitted participants will be able to receive funding from otherwise ineligible sources.
My Lords, I ask the Minister to address one very simple point. She referred to the advice of the Electoral Commission in relation to Amendment 48. I am more concerned with Amendment 49, which is extremely important to all those who are going to be involved in this exercise. She will be only too well aware that, during the debate on Tuesday evening, various Ministers were extremely effective in rubbishing the advice of the Electoral Commission. Would I be right in thinking that, on this issue, they have taken the advice of the commission? This will be extremely important for all those involved in this exercise, and Amendment 49, on the face of it, is actually quite difficult to understand. I hope she can give your Lordships’ House that reassurance.
My Lords, indeed I can. The amendment to which the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, refers is a matter of access to the register. I can give an assurance that we have taken full account of the advice provided by the Electoral Commission.
The Minister was relatively explicit about this, but I have a question in relation to Amendment 49 and the operation of the requirement to check registers in Gibraltar. I hear what she said about this being passed through the appropriate parliamentary procedures in Gibraltar, but it is a bit unique that we have another Government doing something. Of course, compliance with donations will require political parties to check properly. I wanted to be absolutely certain that we will be properly advised as to when that approval is given.
My Lords, that is a very reasonable point to make. As I mentioned earlier, with regard to Amendment 49, it is a matter on which the Gibraltar Government will bring forward legislation —not only in respect of this but on the wider issues of Gibraltar being part of the referendum franchise. I will happily undertake to inform the noble Lord by letter when that legislation goes through, and I shall pop it to other noble Lords who have taken an interest.
My Lords, I had never realised before this Bill came along how important Gibraltar was, and I am impressed by the number of references to it in our amendments today, as in earlier days. I once spent an entire afternoon in Gibraltar and felt that I had got to know it rather well. There are some 22,000 voters in Gibraltar, so it is very good that we pay so much attention to them.
My Lords, I rise to move this highly technical amendment. Other Members of the House may have as much difficulty as I do in understanding the precise wording. As very often is the case when we are working with reference to other bits of legislation, it is a bit abstruse. However, rather than subject the House to yet another lengthy dissertation from myself, I shall read from the Constitution Committee’s report on this point. The committee said that the 2000 Act, “provides for a designated organisation to be appointed by the Electoral Commission as a lead campaign group for each side of the referendum debate. It does not allow the Electoral Commission to designate one organisation only; for there to be any designated organisations in a referendum campaign at least one from each side must apply … This arguably allows one side in a campaign to ‘game’ the system. If they are well funded but do not want the other campaign to receive the financial and other advantages of designation, then they simply fail to apply for designation. Notably, there was no designation in the Welsh referendum in 2011 because the Electoral Commission took the view that there were no lead campaigners that met the statutory test of adequately representing the ‘No’ side. The danger of gaming was also raised in the context of the Scottish independence referendum. The Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013 attempted to overcome this potential problem by allowing for the designation of one side only, although in the end two campaigns did indeed apply for recognition … Whilst we consider it likely that there will indeed be applications for designation by each side, the House may wish to consider whether the Bill should be amended to avoid a situation where one side could, in effect, prevent the lead campaign group on the other side from being designated”— and, of course, from getting funds My amendment simply uses the wording of the amendment in the Scottish Act, which the Government agreed to put into the Scottish Act; it is replicated here, I hope in the correct place and the correct way, to have exactly the same effect as took place in Scotland It will not have escaped your Lordships’ notice that it never had to be used in Scotland. That is the purpose of moving this amendment. If it is accepted by the Government and put on the face of the Bill, there will not be a problem, because the certainty that one side can get itself designated even if the other side does not, and can therefore be a recipient of funds, will mean that the other side has no interest whatever in gaming the system. So I hope that this can be discussed on a totally technical, non-political basis, because I think that the Bill will be improved by the inclusion of this provision—and once we have included it, we can just forget all about it.
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 37 in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and also to say how much I support the amendment just proposed by the noble Lord. I think that this might be a first in consideration of this Bill, but I think that it is a very sensible proposal Amendment 37 is following the same theme, which is ensuring that there is fairness in the conduct of the campaign. I was rather shocked this morning to read Hansard from the other place, where Mr Chope asked the Deputy Leader of the House of Commons to, “confirm that the real reason why three independently minded former Ministers are being purged”, from the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, “is because we voted in favour of a free and fair EU referendum with a strict 28-day purdah period, as recommended by the Council of Europe’s Venice Commission and our Electoral Commission?”.—[Official Report, Commons, 3/11/15; col. 887.] I do not want to get involved in that particular row, except to say that Christopher Chope, Sir Edward Leigh and Cheryl Gillan are three very distinguished former Ministers, and I am very shocked that they should be removed from the Council of Europe, and even more shocked that it should be suggested that that is the reason for their removal I emphasise this point because, whatever the outcome of the referendum, it is important that at the end of it people feel that the Government did not abuse their position—whatever their position turns out to be—and that the campaign was conducted in a fair and balanced way. This, presumably, is why we have the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 My amendment seeks to remove from political parties their ability, which arises from the 2000 Act, to spend money on the campaign itself. I thought that the whole point of having an Electoral Commission—which, incidentally, costs half the cost of the entire Royal Family—was to ensure that we had fair and balanced conduct of elections and referenda. That is what I thought it was about. I thought the whole purpose in having a designated campaign on each side with limitations on their expenses was to ensure fairness. But what do I find? I find that the Government have brought into the Bill the ability of the political parties to spend money in addition to the designated campaigns. In the case of the designated “in” campaign, it can spend £7 million; in the case of the “out” campaign, it can spend £7 million. That is fair enough; but then on the inside, the Labour Party can spend £7 million; the Liberal Democrats can spend £3 million; the Greens can spend £700,000 and the CBI and other organisations can spend £700,000 The Conservatives have said that they will remain neutral—and it is very considerably to the credit of the Conservative board that it took that decision.
Did I not hear the noble Lord say that he thinks the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is fair and reasonable because it is not right that people game certain situations? Political parties have a right to campaign on issues that they feel united about and on which they have had support from the electorate. If there is a problem with the Conservative Party, I do not see why the noble Lord should take that view and extend it to other political parties.
I thought the leader of the Labour Party was a certain Jeremy Corbyn, who wished to leave the European Union, but perhaps I am misinformed. Perhaps he has changed his position. The noble Lord knows perfectly well—
The noble Lord should not assert something that is not true.
What is not true: that Jeremy Corbyn is not leader of the Labour Party or that Jeremy Corbyn was not in favour of leaving the European Union? I will give way to the noble Lord if he tells me which statement is not true.
The Labour Party’s policy is perfectly clear. The problem we have in this debate is that the Conservative Party does not have a clear policy. I do not see why the noble Lord should impose, through his amendment, his problems on to other political parties, including the Scottish nationalists and other major parties.
The noble Lord is suffering from the disadvantage of not having listened to what I am going to say. Perhaps when I have said it, he might want to come back on that point. I am simply pointing out that all these political parties have the ability to spend money in addition to the designated campaigns. If you add that up as it is set out in the Bill, those who wish us to remain inside the European Union will be able to spend £25.5 million and those who wish us to leave, together with the political parties—because UKIP will be able to spend £4 million—will be able to spend £11 million. That seems to me to be a tad unbalanced As the noble Lord knows, all political parties have people with different views on this matter. That is why we need to have a designated campaign, so that people of all political parties and persuasions can join together and make their case, whatever it is. This Bill, which raises the limits, makes the position even more unfair. Before the Bill, under the rules set out under the 2000 Act, the “in” campaign could have spent £20 million and the “out” campaign £10 million: twice as much for those who wish to maintain the status quo. As a result of this Bill, the figures are £25.4 million and £11 million —2.3 times as much. That simply is not fair. At the end of the day, as we know from American elections and elsewhere, the ability to spend money can have a marked effect on the result. If the campaign to stay in is successful, the last thing we want is people arguing that the referendum result was bought, that it was unfair and that it was led by big business and big money. I am surprised that the Labour Party, of all parties, is seeking to defend this position.
It is tempting to come back by asking what happened in the 2015 general election. Who had the most money? Do we call that into question? Who paid for it? I know exactly how much the unions gave the Labour Party, and I know how that money was collected. The corporate hedge funds gave money to the Conservative Party and enabled it to outspend every other party. Does the noble Lord not feel that that was unfair?
My Lords, I know the noble Lord has never stood for election, so perhaps he is unfamiliar with this, but we have strict rules governing how much the parties can spend in general election campaigns. They are designed to ensure that we have fairness. What I am complaining about is that the rules in the Bill give an unfair and disproportionate advantage, and that the amendment to the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act makes that even worse. That seems completely unfair, which is why I suggest that we reduce the figures that can be spent by the various political parties. In the 2000 Act, that is done as a percentage of the vote. Originally, it was £5 million if a party exceeded 30% of the vote, £4 million if it exceeded 20% but not 30%, £3 million if it got 10%, £2 million if it got 5% but not more than 10%, and £500,000 if it got not more than 5%. If we reduce all these numbers to zero, we will have a fair and balanced campaign, which is what my amendment seeks to do. I would have thought that everyone in this House would be in favour of that.
The point is that the Conservative Party, under the PPERA, is able to spend up to £7 million on the referendum if it chooses to, as a registered participant. If it decides not to register, why should its decision impact on other parties which have policies and desires to campaign for in this referendum? That sounds undemocratic.
I agree with the noble Lord, which is why I want to make sure that all parties cannot spend any money at all, and that the people who can spend the money are the designated campaigners, so that there is a fair basis. I beg to move.
The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has a lot of logic. I was amused, however, when he referred to how difficult it is to understand legislation that refers back to previous legislation. Exactly—and that is what a lot of us complain about with the European Union. The noble Lord may remember that, when the constitutional treaty had to be ratified by national parliaments, no comprehensive single version was available. Everybody had to refer back to previous legislation. In the case of the Czech Republic, the relevant documents had not even been translated into the national language That said, I very much agree with the points the noble Lord made, and I support his amendment. I would, however, very much like to support my noble friend Lord Forsyth. I am somewhat bemused by the intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Collins, who does not seem to take on board that we are talking about funding: about limits laid down by Parliament on the funding of both sides of the referendum. What surprises me—this is the issue I would like my noble friend to address—is that the Government simply decided to consolidate the PPERA into this legislation and did not introduce their own. They have, after all, amended various parts of the PPERA; they do not have to accept what is written into it as if it were tablets of stone I followed the debate in the House of Commons, which touched on this issue. The Minister in the Commons said that it is a good thing—that this is the first time we have had such comprehensive and far-reaching limits. Okay, but if you have limits they ought to be fair to the two sides of the referendum. Otherwise, why have limits at all? Would it not be better to let both sides raise what money they can and spend it? It seems to me there is a fundamental flaw in the proposal. The whole point of referenda is to deal with issues that cut across political parties; that is partly why we have them. I very much doubt we would have referenda if there were not constitutional issues that cut across different political parties. It seems perverse to say, just because a political party in a general election some time ago got 30% of the vote, it is entitled to X amount of money; and another party, which came third the time before and second last time, is allowed Y proportion of money. Why?
My Lords—
I will give way in a minute. If you are going to impose limits on spending, let them be fair between the two sides. After all, the government grant is equal for each side, and the limit on what the designated organisations can do is equal, one with the other, so why bring in political parties? Why say that because the Conservative Party won 30-plus% of the vote it is allowed to spend £7 million, because the Labour Party scored about 30%, it is allowed to spend £7 million, because UKIP got above 10% of the vote it is allowed to spend £4 million and because the Liberals, scored somewhere around 10%, they are allowed to spend £3 million? Of course, as my noble friend Lord Forsyth said, when you add them all up—let us exclude the Conservative Party, because it has said it is not going to fund either side in the organisation—there is a huge inequity between the limit on one side and the limit on the other. I find it very difficult to understand how this can be justified. I do not see the necessity of it. It would have been extremely simple, if the Government insist on having a cap on spending in the campaign, to have it the same for both sides. The noble Lord wanted to intervene.
No, no.
I am glad that I have his agreement—or perhaps I have not, but we shall hear in a minute. The provision seems fundamentally flawed. I do not see why the Government just picked up that legislation and incorporated it into this. It seems not to make any sense whatever.
My Lords, Amendment 58 is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Liddle, who apologises that he cannot be present today. Before I address the substance of the amendment, perhaps I may say how much I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, in his amendment and therefore agree with what the noble Lords, Lord Lamont and Lord Forsyth, said about it—that is an interesting axis of agreement across the Floor of the Chamber which does not often occur The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, asked why we should bring in political parties. I was astonished by that. No one is bringing in political parties; political parties are there; political parties are part of our democracy; political parties are part of every sophisticated democracy in the world. Political parties expect to take part in political campaigns, in elections or in referenda. It would be quite extraordinary if a political party was not interested in a major political campaign.
I am sure that the noble Lord does not mean to misrepresent me. I was not suggesting that political parties should not participate—I defer to his experience of political parties, which is greater than mine—but I was referring to the fact that we should not have to bring in expenses from political parties.
I have an interesting experience of political parties. I have talked for some time about that in the past, but I shall not delay the Committee on that subject today I was actually quoting the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, who asked, “Why bring in political parties?”. That was an extraordinary thing to say, because political parties are part of the structure of our system and part of our national life. It is inconceivable to me that you could have a body of men and women—
My Lords—
I will give way in a second, but let me just complete my sentence, or my paragraph It would be extraordinary if you had a body of men and women who were interested in public life and the choices facing the nation and who wanted to play their part in determining the future history of our country, and a big referendum of the importance which this referendum represents came along and they did not take part in that campaign or have any views at all. The Conservative Party has of course decided to opt out of this campaign, but that is because of the peculiar situation in which it finds itself where the leadership of the party is terrified by the Eurosceptics. That has been the history of our relationship with the European Union during the past five years: everything is vetoed by the Eurosceptics and the Government are often paralysed by them. The Government are continually coming up with some ploy to buy off the Eurosceptics and, on this occasion, the Government have decided not to have their own party take part in a campaign. It is an extraordinarily anomalous position, in which a major party is supposedly silent on the great issue of the day. Just because the Conservative Party has got itself into this mess and this absurdity is no reason to deny the important role of political parties generally in a democracy or to handicap other political parties that are in no way responsible for the shambles of the Conservative Party and prevent them doing what they should have a natural right to do in any democratic election or electoral campaign.
My Lords—
My Lords—
I will give way to both noble Lords but will do so first to the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, who has been trying to catch my eye for quite a long time.
I was not aware that the noble Lord was the Speaker yet, but I am grateful to him for giving way. It was a very long paragraph; perhaps he should have a few more paragraphs in his prose No one is saying in supporting this amendment that political parties should not campaign vigorously or be a very important part of the referendum argument. What we are saying is that the spending limits on either side in a referendum should not be related to political parties nor to some historic measure of how the parties fared in the previous election.
That is not a sensible argument. If they are going to campaign, political parties need money. Campaigning needs money, so political parties will need money if they take part in it. If their members and supporters are willing to dig into their pockets and give them money, it would be quite absurd, in a democracy, if we used the legislature to try to prevent people campaigning in that fashion. The real problem is that the noble Lord cannot reconcile himself to the fact that there are more political parties in this country which support our membership of the European Union than there are which are against it. That is very unfortunate for him, but I have not created the situation, nor has he and nor has the legislature. It is a fact of life and it reflects the will of the people. They have decided to join parties, a numerical majority of which actually support our membership of the Union. They should be allowed to raise a reasonable amount of money in order to pursue the campaign and to continue to make sure that political parties play the part in our democratic life that they are entitled to. It ends up with the kind of arithmetic which he was quoting, except that the arithmetic used by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, was completely artificial because it left out the Conservative Party’s potential use of £7 million. It is entirely a matter for that party if it decides not to use it and this cannot be blamed on anyone else.
Does the noble Lord remember that the party to which he belongs had an election for its new leader not very long ago? It elected, overwhelmingly, a man who wanted to leave the European Union. How has it come about that the noble Lord now says that he belongs to a party which wants to stay in the Union?
That is an extraordinary question to ask me. I am the living embodiment of the fact that one can change one’s mind. I believe that Mr Corbyn has, in the light of events, learned wisdom which he did not possess 10 or 20 years ago. I assure the noble Lord that that wisdom consists in supporting—I repeat, supporting—our membership of the European Union. That is the official position of the Labour Party and will, of course, remain so.
The noble Lord must be aware that a large number of members of the Labour Party—among those who are left—happen to have views about EU membership which are not that supportive. Although the Labour politicians at Westminster may or may not have strong views, they control the spend and the members of the Labour Party are not going to be very happy if the party spends all their money campaigning in a direction which they may not support.
I do not think that the noble Lord is a great expert on the views of the Labour Party. I would be delighted to take him to some party meetings in Lincolnshire where he would find enormous support for our membership of the European Union from people in all walks of life. The fact remains that the Labour Party supports our Members of Parliament in the other place who, by an overwhelming majority, have voted, and will continue to vote for our policy of believing that it is fundamentally in this country’s interests to remain part of the European Union I must move on to speak to Amendment 58. If there is a discordant element in my sudden change of subject, I say, in anticipation of someone rising to complain, that I am not responsible for the grouping of amendments.
Will the noble Lord enlighten your Lordships as to whether he would be taking the same attitude on the last amendment if the Labour Party was as split on this matter as the Conservative Party? UKIP got 8% of the electorate voting for it in the last general election, against 24% for the Conservatives—one third of their vote. We all know that the Conservative Party is pretty split on this issue. Would the noble Lord, Lord Davies, be taking the same attitude if his party was in the same position?
In relation to the principles of our public life and our constitution, I like to think that I take positions that are consistent. Therefore my answer to the question must be yes. Political parties have an essential part to play in our democracy and their position should be respected. They should not be in any way suffocated by being told that they cannot have any money for a campaign that they genuinely believe in and where their members are willing to support them financially As for the complaints that the noble Lord always makes about the treatment of UKIP, in this case he does not have the ground that he normally has for complaint, because the amount of money available to UKIP—
My Lords—
I must finish my sentence—and it will only be a sentence on this occasion. The amount of money available to the noble Lord’s party in the referendum campaign will be a function of the votes cast for his party and not a function of the number of MPs elected with his party label. If that was the case, he really would be in a bad situation. I give way once again to the noble Lord, Lord Lamont.
I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Again I stress that this amendment I have been supporting has nothing to do with political parties participating. It has everything to do with spending limits. My question to the noble Lord is: if in a general election the laws provided that what each party could spend in a general election was related to how it had done last time, would he think that that was fair?
We could argue this for a very long time but we actually have a consensus. Until this issue arose, there was a general consensus in public life in favour of the 2000 Act. Therefore, it is quite right that we should base ourselves in this campaign on that consensus and on the practice over the last 15 years. With that, I will leave that subject—I will not take any more interventions on anything else—and turn to Amendment 58 Amendment 58 is very important because it is all about the Government being straight with the public—which I do not think they are planning to be at the moment. They have launched a very complicated negotiation, which many of us have many thoughts about, and they hope that it will result in a deal. If it results in a deal, they intend to call a referendum and to advise the public to vote for that deal. If they do not get the deal, of course none of those things will happen I totally understand that while the Government are negotiating they do not want to give a running commentary—that is the Government’s phrase, not mine. I even understand why they are a bit reticent about saying exactly what their aims are in the negotiation. In fact, Eurosceptics will always say that they are not aiming high enough and will always say that whatever they get is not adequate. So they are wasting their time, but I can understand why they have got themselves in this position However, I cannot understand any hesitation about the Government’s duty, once they have a deal—if they have a deal—to be absolutely straight with the British public about what that deal is and to make an official, authoritative declaration to the British public of what that deal consists of. We cannot possibly have a situation in which knowledge of the deal comes out through unattributed and deniable press briefings from special advisers and spin doctors and so on. We need a clear government document when the day comes, if that deal arises.
My Lords—
I will not give way for a moment. I will continue and give way later in my remarks. If, as a result of the deal, the Government call a referendum, they should give advice to the British public and the electorate. They owe to the public the duty of their judgment and the duty of declaring the facts. If they do that, it is important that they do that in a public, authoritative document and not by the back-stairs methods or spinning methods that are so beloved of this Government. That is the point of the amendment in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. When we come to the referendum campaign, if the Government recommend, as they did in 1975, a yes vote, they should explain to the British public in an authoritative document why they are making that recommendation and set out what they consider to be the essential facts on which that recommendation is based. At this point, I will give way to the noble Lord.
I am most grateful to the noble Lord and I know how passionately he feels about these matters. But does he feel that his case is so weak that he is arguing that it is necessary to rig the whole thing in favour of his point of view? Looking at Amendment 58, he is suggesting that a statement from the campaign to leave, a statement from the campaign to stay and a statement from the Government, which may be to leave or to stay, should be sent to every household. From the point of view of people receiving this material, it is unbalanced. Why is the noble Lord so concerned about his case that he feels that it is necessary to have an unbalanced position in respect of his own amendment and in his opposition to mine?
For the first time since I debated on these matters with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I am very surprised at the gaps in his historical knowledge, which normally is extremely extensive and accurate, and often brought to bear very effectively in debates in this House. He seems to have forgotten what happened in 1975, which I am old enough to remember. I had my first political campaign; I was part of the City in Europe campaign, and I am very proud of it. I have not rigged or invented anything. In this amendment, I am following precisely the wording we had in the Act which set out the basis for the 1975 referendum and entirely the practice that was followed. I am being the most rigorous constitutionalist. I hope that the noble Lord will approve of that—I think he normally does. I am following precedent and I am suggesting that precedent lays down the basis for fairness, and is always a good basis for credibility and legitimacy in public life. I will give way again, although I cannot go on giving way or I will be trying the patience of the House with the time that I am taking up.
The noble Lord will never try the patience of the House. Perhaps he is a little older than me. I can just remember the 1975 campaign and voting in it. But is he suggesting that during that campaign, every household got a leaflet from a campaign to stay in the European Union, a leaflet from a campaign to leave the European Union and a leaflet from the Government saying that we should stay in the European Economic Community, or the Common Market, as it was then, all at public expense? I do not think that that is what happened at all. But that is what his amendment proposes.
It is very unusual that I am able to answer a quite lengthy intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, more than satisfactorily with a single word—yes. That is exactly what happened in 1975, exactly what my amendment calls for and exactly what I think is required on this occasion. I will give way to the noble Lord.
I merely intervene to say that I must be older than the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, because I played an active part in the 1975 referendum. It was not a leaflet that was put out from each side and from the Government: there were three little booklets. Does the noble Lord, Lord Davies, agree with that?
I am most grateful for that intervention. I know that the noble Lord has a very long history of public life in local government before he came here and takes a great interest in these matters. He is absolutely right. Exactly what I have in mind is something that is an intelligent summary of the case which sets out the essential facts. There is far too much spin in the political world in which we live. We know that there is far too much dishonesty, suppression of material fact for the convenience of Governments and far too many back-stairs, deniable, non-attributable briefings and so on We want a situation in which any household in this country can have access if they wish to intelligent arguments both ways and can make up their own minds on that basis. Not only do I think that this would be an important element in the campaign and a great contribution to democratic transparency and democratic involvement, it would be a very good thing to go back to some of those first principles which we had in 1975 and make sure that this campaign involves serious consideration by as many people as possible of the real issues—albeit that we know that some people will be influenced by prejudices and emotive language, and some by the tabloids. But we hope that the number of those people is small in relation to our total democracy and that we have intelligent discussion, debate and consideration before we take a dramatic decision about our nation’s future.
My Lords, I have listened to my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Lamont. I say to my noble friends that if my preamble takes more than 11 minutes, please move a Motion that I no longer be heard ever again. This is a relatively simple matter. In any United Kingdom election involving the four countries of the union, there will be about a dozen major political parties and thousands of fringe candidates. Between them, the major parties will offer hundreds of different policies, and it is right that they have spending limits and are able to advance their arguments for all those hundreds of policies. That is why the political parties need to spend money arguing totally different cases However, in the case of this referendum, there are only two campaigns: one to remain and one to leave. In those circumstances, I cannot understand why the political parties will also get money to spend on campaigns. There is nothing to stop the Labour Party or the Conservative Party or any other party campaigning: let them join the “remain” campaign or the “leave” campaign. Let them put all their effort into helping those two options: leave or remain. In those circumstances, it is grossly unfair and illogical that the political parties are getting money to spend, based on their last election results, to campaign on a simple question: do we remain in the European Union or do we leave the European Union? Let the political parties weigh in behind either campaign, and keep it simple and fair.
My Lords, I was not going to intervene but I really felt that I had to do so to support the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford. He will be surprised at that, perhaps—but he was absolutely right when he said that three documents were issued at the 1975 referendum. One was from the in campaign; one was from the out campaign; and one was from the Government, with a preface by Harold Wilson. The Government recommended that we should remain in and, of course, they gave their reasons for it. Unfortunately, the Government’s reasons turned out to be rather suspect, because one of the claims that they made was that they had ruled out the prospect of economic and monetary union. We now know that that was a false statement because we have got economic and monetary union. Although we are not members of the euro, we are, in fact, members of EMU. I hope that that was a little help to the noble Lord, Lord Davies.
I hesitate to put words into the noble Lord’s mouth, and I freely acknowledge that I was wrong on the matter that, in the 1975 campaign, there were two leaflets that argued the position in favour of remaining in the European Community and only one against. The noble Lord says that he will support the noble Lord, Lord Davies, but he has spent almost a lifetime arguing that the wrong decision was made and that people were misinformed about the position. Was it not wrong, actually, for there to be two leaflets on one side as opposed to one on the other?
Yes, I agree with that. I was only confirming that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, was correct in saying that there were three pamphlets. At the time, the Labour Party was in favour of coming out. Unfortunately, the Labour Government were in favour of staying in. We are almost getting into the same situation now, although in reverse, as we approach the next referendum. That is all I wish to say about it.
My Lords, as we are in Committee, I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, can prevent me from saying what I wanted to say at the end of the first part of his recent peroration. I would just like to confirm that I was not complaining about UKIP’s possible position, and I would like to correct the record. Of the votes cast at the last general election, the Conservatives got 36.9%, the Labour Party got 30.4%, UKIP got 12.6%—not a mere 10%, as the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, suggested—and the Liberal Democrats got all of 7.9%. Those are the correct figures Turning to the present amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, I have to disagree with him in his suggestion that there should be a statement from the Government, not only for the reasons just put forward by my noble friend Lord Stoddart, but also, more generally, because I do not think that the British people are going to be able to trust the Government’s statement on this referendum any more than they could on the last one. I will add another example to the deception that my noble friend Lord Stoddart mentioned as regards the last referendum. In 1975, the Labour Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, made a promise that if we voted to stay in the then Common Market, “there would be no loss of essential national sovereignty” Of course, we all thought that he meant that there would be no loss of sovereignty whatever, because we all thought that all sovereignty was essential. However, in a somewhat subtle—to put it politely—way, he did not mean that at all. What he meant was that there would be no loss of any sovereignty that he thought was essential. Since then, the British people have discovered that we have lost most of the sovereignty that he promised we would retain. So I really do not think that we want a statement from the Government, as in this amendment, but it would be perfectly in order to have a statement from each side.
I just want to correct a figure. It has been mentioned several times that the Labour Party will have the ability to spend £7 million, but, of course, the figures on the popular vote are slightly adjusted because of the Labour and Co-op Members, where there are joint parties standing. Therefore, the figure for Labour, according to the Electoral Commission, is 29.3%, which would give it £5.5 million. According to this, UKIP would have the ability to spend £4 million. Am I to understand that the noble Lord is in favour of his party, UKIP, being limited to spending £10,000?
My Lords, my party would like to spend as much money on this campaign as it can. I was looking at the suggestion that we should have 12.6%’s worth, that being our share of the votes cast in the last election. Personally, I am in favour of that, of course.
I want to lower the temperature with a deeply nerdy amendment, Amendment 55, which concerns purdah. I apologise for not following the noble Lord, Lord Pearson—
Wrong group!
It is in the next grouping.
My Lords, we have heard a lot of history this afternoon. Although the lessons of 1975 might be of interest, they are, in fact, history, and we are debating a Bill for a future referendum, rather than the past. I am speaking on behalf of the Liberal Democrats to support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, as this amendment fits with the views of the Constitution Committee and appears to be very sensible. As to the role of political parties and how much they are funded, although it is very easy to look back and say, “Well, in 1975 this happened, that happened and the other happened”, since that time we have passed the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act. The Bill relates to and amends that legislation. My party has no objection to the Government’s position on that. The final amendment that I want to speak to in this group is Amendment 58, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Liddle and Lord Davies. Although I can see an intuitive allure in the amendment, there is another issue here which goes back to the PPERA question and pre-empts Amendment 55, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, on purdah. It is clearly in the interest of everyone to understand the Government’s position. At Second Reading in the other place, the right honourable Philip Hammond, the Foreign Secretary, talked about wanting to suspend Section 125 of the Act because the Government would want to come back and sell the deal that they had renegotiated. In practice, if purdah is in place the assumption will be that circulating three documents—remain, leave and the Government putting forward their own case—is in danger of breaching purdah rules. Although Amendment 58 sounds intuitively interesting, it is quite difficult to support it as currently drafted.
My Lords, what the noble Baroness says is right. This would offend against the purdah rules. Even more, how will the Government produce a leaflet to set out their position? Would they set out the position of the majority in the Cabinet, or the position of two groups in the Cabinet? It would be a jolly task, would it not, to set out the views of the Eurosceptics in the Cabinet, as well as the—
I am grateful to the noble Lord. The honest answer to his question, and certainly the answer that I have always envisaged, is that we should follow the precedent of 1975, when a single, coherent pamphlet was produced by the Government, justifying their recommendation of a yes vote.
The noble Lord is terribly attached to this precedent. It is only one precedent from one occasion ever. To suggest that we cannot change anything that was done then because that set the precedent is totally absurd. I am a Conservative, but even I would not suggest that what had been done once would always have to be done again and again in vaguely similar circumstances. It is quite improper.
Is the noble Lord suggesting that the Prime Minister, when he goes to negotiate on behalf of the United Kingdom, will say to the other Governments, “By the way, I’m only representing half my Government; the other half may have a different view”? How does he expect the Government to conclude negotiations?
I am terribly sorry, but I am afraid that the noble Lord misunderstands it. When the Prime Minister negotiates he speaks for the Government as a whole, but his evaluation of whether the negotiation is sufficiently good for us to remain in the European Union is another matter There will be views and views within the Cabinet—we are pretty sure about that. It is highly likely, is it not? We would have to have a leaflet that said, “The position of the majority of the Cabinet”—or the majority of Ministers, perhaps. I do not know whether it would include PPSs and all sorts of other people. Perhaps we could add in the spads, I do not know. However, it would have to say that there are others who take a different view. It is total nonsense. It is the product of a mindset that wants to set the thing up to be biased in one direction time and time again. Lord knows that the Bill as drafted is bad enough, but it would be a darned sight worse if we were to accept the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Davies.
My Lords, I campaigned in the 1975 referendum to stay in the Common Market. To criticise the precedent, I well remember that we thought we had been rather clever because we had the establishment onside and we had 2:1 of the brochures sent to people. The whole objective was to marginalise the campaign of those who were not in favour of staying in. It was, in essence, a scheme to rig the whole vote.
I very much agree with my noble friend Lord Flight. Just because Harold Wilson rigged the 1975 referendum so that my noble friend Lord Forsyth and I—and indeed my noble friend Lord Flight—were conned into supporting staying in the EU, is that a reason for rigging this one? That is the question we have to ask The House will have noticed Amendment 40 in my name. Even my closest friends advise me that this amendment is rubbish. All I say to my noble friend the Minister is that I will not press my amendment. She will not have to spend any time telling the House that my amendment is rubbish because I agree with that anyway.
My Lords, I am well aware that the political definition of a level playing field is a field in which, when the ball is placed in the centre, it rolls naturally towards your opponent’s goal. That is one of the problems with trying to define a level playing field I am fascinated to hear so many Conservative Peers speaking in favour of an expenditure cap to ensure that one side in a campaign does not spend more than another. I look forward to the speeches that will come from those Benches the next time we discuss political party funding. Perhaps they will support a similar principle then. The Conservative Party spent a great deal more than any other party in the recent election. I do not recall any complaints from Conservatives on that—whatever position they take on the European Union—either then or since.
Is the noble Lord saying that the general election principle is unfair because one party can raise more money than another, and that this unfairness should continue in the referendum?
I am simply remarking that principles should apply across the field. I am strongly in favour of greater control over political parties’ spending, which the Conservative Party has resisted extremely strongly. I just remarked that we need to be a little more consistent than we were being I will make one other point relating to this group of amendments and to the next.
Will the noble Lord give way?
May I continue? I will give way to the noble Lord in a minute or two There is a principle that we have a Government. We are not like the United States, where Congress can stop the Government taking everything through if it wants As we were told with reference to the House of Lords’ vote last week, the principle is that the Government must be allowed to get their business through and must be able to say what they think is in the national interest. At the end of this negotiation, the Prime Minister has to be able to say, on behalf of the Government, what he now considers to be in the national interest. I note that a number of noble Lords think that the Prime Minister should not be able to make that case. That seems to me to be moving towards the sort of deadlock between Congress and the presidency seen in the United States, where what the President says has no impact at all. This is a renegotiation. At the end of the renegotiation, the Government are entitled, under our constitutional arrangements, to say what they think is in the national interest. I trust that they will do so.
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I actually said that I would be perfectly happy with no cap: I was not talking about caps and supporting them in the way that he suggested. However, would the noble Lord be quite content if there were caps in the general election and the Liberal party were capped at less than half the spending allowed to the Conservative and Labour parties because it got less than half the votes of those parties at the previous election?
My Lords, I have some familiarity with the previous negotiations on political funding and whether there should be a state contribution. The discussions on whether there should be public support for political parties had indeed taken on board the issue of how many votes each party got in the previous election, so the principle might well be taken, but the issue of caps on expenditure is not really one for a referendum which, I think, the out camp fears it may lose. It is a wider issue.
My Lords, it has been an interesting debate. One of the problems with referenda is that they assume there are simply two sides to an argument, when actually there are often lots of different opinions and reasons why people may wish, in the case of the European Union, to stay in or to leave. The interesting thing in this debate is that we have heard that UKIP will wish to argue its case strongly as a political party. We have heard the Conservative Party saying no, we are not going to do that. In effect, the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will limit UKIP to £10,000—it will not be able to spend more than that—while if, for example, Unite registered as a participant, it could spend £700,000, as could any other organisation or individual if they registered properly as a participant The real issue here is how we have a fair political debate: how we ensure that all the different views in favour of remaining or leaving are properly expressed. It is clear, as we have heard, that there is a problem among those who want to leave. They do not appear able to reconcile their differences and come together as one—perhaps because they have absolutely different views about why Britain should leave. The Conservative Party has clearly not been very keen to sit on platforms with UKIP to argue its case, and certainly individuals within the party have not been keen to join in. The idea that political parties should absent themselves from this campaign is purely ridiculous.
The noble Lord keeps repeating this. Nobody is suggesting that political parties absent themselves. I am listening carefully to his argument. If you decide to have a cap on expenditure, it has to be fair to both sides. If the noble Lord is arguing that there should be no cap, that is an entirely different position. The Government’s position—arising from the 2000 Act—is that there should be a cap. Therefore, it is not that the political parties cannot participate, but that the vehicle through which they participate consists of the two campaigns. If the noble Lord is arguing that there should be no cap, I can see where he is coming from, but he seems to be arguing that there should be a cap and that the available expenditure should be unbalanced. That is ridiculous.
Actually, I am arguing that all participants in the referendum should properly account for what they raise and what they spend, and that that be recorded and sent to the Electoral Commission. That is what I am arguing for. We have heard in the debate that somehow you can create a level playing field by setting a cap on the total amount spent. What, then, is the noble Lord saying: that the “remain” campaign and the “leave” campaign agree beforehand exactly what they are going to spend and then say that is what they are going to do I know what caps do. I, too, have had a debate about political funding, and some dialogue with the Conservative Party about funding election campaigns. The caps on spending were important in trying to stop this continual outbidding of each other, but no political party has ever reached the cap that has been set in general elections. The Conservative Party has consistently outspent the Labour Party in general elections. There certainly has not been a level playing field. There is only one way to achieve a level playing field: by saying that £20 million from the government purse will be provided for this campaign and that it should be divided equally and then spent I do not, however, think that that is what noble Lords want. What noble Lords want is a fair and open debate. Political parties have an important role in that and the idea that you can cap the Labour Party’s spending to £10,000 on arguing its policy—and it does and will have a policy—is absolutely ridiculous. It is not right or fair to the democratic process. My opinion is not simply that of my party; it is also that of the Electoral Commission. The commission says, first, that, irrespective of the cap, there can be no certainty that there will be equal resources. This is a bit like a general election, where we have had caps on spending but there has been no level playing field in respect of the money that can be spent The other aspect of this is that everybody’s talking as if £7 million, and £5 million, is going to be available. Political parties, however, will have to raise the money. They will have to account for it. This is what all the amendments in the first group were about: transparency. The public will be more interested in transparency than the notional caps that the noble Lords opposite are talking about. People will certainly want to know who is funding the yes campaign, but they will also want to know who is funding the no campaign—who is behind it: perhaps the hedge funds or the businesses that simply see an interest in being outside All these things are important, but, as the Electoral Commission has said, the number of participants on each side should not be artificially limited by rules. We have seen that UKIP will want to play its part in the referendum campaign and to put its case, irrespective of whether it participates in a joint campaign. I know that the Labour Party will want to put its case strongly in respect of the social dimension to Europe and how Europe has defended workers’ rights. I do not think that the Prime Minister will necessarily wish to be part of that campaign. We will put our case, and the idea that you simply limit the Labour Party’s spending to £10,000 is not acceptable I strongly support the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, not least because—this is the strongest case for it—when this was considered previously it was thought appropriate to put it in the Scottish referendum. If it was appropriate for Scotland, why is it unnecessary for this referendum? Clearly, it is Regarding my noble friend’s amendment—we raised this issue in Committee on Monday—the Government will come to a decision. They will need to report that decision to the people of this country. It is important that the Government’s decision is not mediated solely through these campaigns, which noble Lords opposite seem to think will have a clear view about the reasons for leaving or staying. It is really important that the Government communicate with the electorate, so they understand what the Government have negotiated and can come to a conclusion. The argument that it can be mediated only through a yes campaign or a no campaign is not acceptable. The Minister may not accept my noble friend’s amendment but I hope the Government will think seriously about how the conclusions of the negotiations are communicated properly to the electorate without being mediated through a third party.
Can the noble Lord explain where he gets this £10,000 figure from?
If you are not a permitted participant in the referendum, under PPERA you are limited to £10,000. That amount is also recorded in the Electoral Commission’s briefing, and I know that the noble Lord is very keen to support the role of the Electoral Commission.
I would have thought that, “£500,000 in the case of a person or body falling within section 105(1)(b) but not designated under section 108”, might apply.
Political parties are treated differently, as the Minister indicated at the outset. The fact is, they are different. They are covered, as she said, by separate elements of PPERA. If political parties do not register as participants in the referendum, they will be limited to spending £10,000. I do not have to answer for the Conservative Party but, in effect, by advocating this amendment noble Lords are saying to local Conservative associations, “You cannot use your office, your staff or your resources in this referendum campaign because if you exceed £10,000, the Conservative Party will be acting illegally”.
I have tried very hard to follow the noble Lord’s speech. I still do not understand the £10,000 figure, but going back a bit in his speech, he expressed himself as being strongly in favour of caps in general elections—fair enough. If we are to have caps in general elections, should they not be the same for all political parties?
I do not know that I strongly expressed my support for caps. I said I thought they had a function and a role. Actually, what the public demand of our political parties is greater transparency. The noble Lords opposite constantly refer to the trade union movement supporting the Labour Party. Every single penny of that money is properly accounted for under a range of legislation, including the trade union Acts that cover the establishment of political funds, but I am not so sure that is clear in the case of some company donations, the origins of which can be obscure and unclear. For me, the most important thing in funding is transparency I am a strong advocate of capping donations, which is far more effective than having a cap on spending. Caps on spending have not been particularly effective. As we have seen in every general election since PPERA was enacted, no political party has got anywhere near the spending cap. But capping donations—limiting how people might influence policy—is much more effective. When the Committee on Standards in Public Life held an inquiry into the funding of political parties, I argued that we should have a cap of £500 on political donations because members of the public would understand that amount. Most members of the public would find it incredibly difficult to raise £50,000, which was the amount suggested by the Conservative Party. Not many members of the public would be able to donate that amount. But if you had a cap of £500, most members of the public would say, “Yes, that is a reasonable amount”. But that is the debate: it is more effective to have caps on donations than on spending. No doubt we will return to that debate some other time.
My Lords, I think I heard the noble Lord say that he assumed UKIP would want to take part in the referendum campaign, and of course it will, but I should just confirm what my great leader Nigel Farage has said: he sees UKIP as an important but cohesive part of the eventual campaign to leave the European Union. That is where UKIP is on that one.
I am glad to hear that but at the moment it does not look as though there is a single campaign. If the Conservative Party and UKIP unite as one, so be it. The public will no doubt take account of that. But the business currently before this House is an amendment that says to UKIP, “If you register as a political party, you will limited to £10,000”. I am not sure that would cover Nigel Farage’s flights around the country, so I think he will be concerned about that.
On the question of the designated organisation for leaving, does the noble Lord not accept that there are members of the Labour Party who are members of this? It is not a Conservative organisation; it is completely cross-party.
I have no doubt that individuals within political parties will wish to campaign one way or the other. I have absolutely no problem with that but I do have a problem with the idea that the Labour Party—like UKIP—is not entitled to have a policy or to be able to campaign on that policy and articulate its own message. I admire the Prime Minister. I admire his ability and I hope very much that he will use his extensive negotiating skills to achieve a settlement that will be in the best interests of this country. But that will not stop the Labour Party arguing its own view about Britain’s national interests, which will not be related solely to the reasons that the Prime Minister has. That is why it is really important that political parties have the right to campaign properly PPERA sets limits on what political parties can spend on a specific campaign. I am familiar with the requirements of PPERA. I am familiar with the quite onerous responsibilities of political parties, not least that they have to make sure that every single donation received is from a permitted donor; they have to double- check and cross-reference. Errors have been made in the past, I know. But we have to understand that this debate is about a cap on the ability of parties to campaign and that is why it is so important that we resist it As for all the questions about who has what, I am sure the Minister will clarify all the positions that I have set out. It is not for me to argue—this is a government Bill—but I am sure she will do so well.
My Lords, Amendment 34 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, would allow the Electoral Commission to designate a lead campaigner for one side of the argument at this referendum without having to appoint one for the other. This would override the current rules that apply for designated lead organisations. These provide that the commission must designate a lead campaigner on each side, or not at all. The reason for this is clearly, as noble Lords have argued tonight, that in such matters there should be as fair a playing field as possible In the case of multiple applications for designation as a lead campaigner, the Electoral Commission must appoint for each side the applicant which represents “to the greatest extent” those campaigning for a particular outcome. This is intended to ensure the designation of organisations which represent the broad spread of opinion on each side. The benefits then available to the designated lead organisations ensure that each side of the argument has a fair opportunity to put its case to the wider voting public. Taken together, these provisions aim to ensure informed voting after a vibrant debate However, the rules for this referendum must also ensure that the referendum is run fairly and that we do not create any perception of bias. The principle that the Electoral Commission cannot designate on just one side is intended to support that objective. The benefits available to the designated lead organisations are significant. I am talking not about political parties per se—they may not end up being designated as lead organisations—but organisations designated by the Electoral Commission as lead organisations Allowing public funds to be used to create a distorted campaign with only one designated lead organisation would naturally raise public concern. This would clearly be the case where the commission receives applications from both sides but does not consider that those on one side meet the statutory tests. Under the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, in this circumstance the arguments of the side that does not get appointed would not get a fair hearing. The administrative failings of those who failed to meet the statutory test should not invalidate the right of both sides to an equal opportunity to make their respective cases There is, of course, the view that this amendment may help avoid a circumstance where one side deliberately refuses to apply for designation to prevent the other side receiving its benefits. This could occur, for example, if one side lacks the funding to take advantage of the benefits, particularly the higher spending limits, or wishes to avoid debate on an issue of low public interest. I do not think any noble Lord is going to suggest that this case will be a matter be of low public interest. That is not going to be a feature of this referendum. Given the public interest in the referendum, a more cynical attempt to deprive the other side of the benefits of designation surely would be widely reported and deeply harmful to a campaigner’s own cause—it would be seen as being a cheat.
The noble Baroness seems to have come to the end of a passage which contains no explanation of why the Government legislated in the case of Scotland to deal with this potential problem, and no recognition of the fact that by so legislating they ensured that there was no problem. All her suggestions that this might seem to be unfair will not come about if this amendment is accepted, because there will then be two designated organisations and no interest whatever in gaming.
My Lords, the noble Lord’s amendment does not achieve that. It allows for one-sided designation. The noble Lord referred to Scotland. That was a matter for the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament, not the UK Government. In respect of the Scottish referendum, the Electoral Commission commented that the approach of having one-sided designation possible was appropriate in the specific circumstances of the independence referendum to reduce the risk of, “a tactical decision not to apply for designation” However, it says that in other circumstances that does not necessarily pertain. So we would certainly argue that having one-sided designation could unduly damage proper and fair treatment of the arguments that need to be put forward.
Is my noble friend not trying to argue two contradictory things at the same time? In rejecting the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, she said that it would be wrong to allow funds to create a distorted campaign. The argument was that if you had one side only gaining funds it would create a distorted campaign. My amendment may not be perfect in its drafting, but does the Minister accept that it must be wrong to allow political parties to spend sums such that one side is able to spend 2.3 times what the other can spend? It is not consistent with her principle that we should not allow funds to create a distorted campaign.
My Lords, I think there is some confusion between the issue of a political party carrying out a campaign and a designated lead campaigner. If my noble friend is saying that there should be a level playing field with regard to the sums of money to be spent on each campaign, that would be saying that the designated lead campaigners, if they were not a political party, would have to have a total sum of not only what they spent but what every single other person in the country who agreed with them spent. I really do not think that that is what he is trying to achieve. I accept that my noble friend is trying to introduce a discussion about apparent unfairness in the funds available to political parties. I think that that is a debate for a wider issue as to what political party funding may comprise.
I am seeking explanation only because the Minister referred to the designated campaigns earlier. This debate seems to be solely about the ability to spend money, but other things come with being a designated campaigning group, not least the right to free mail and other access. Can the Minister explain that, so we understand the importance of it?
My Lords, I will jump to a little later in my speech and just say that the designated lead campaigners are entitled not only to the spending limit which has been the subject of this debate but to a grant from public funds of up to £600,000, free delivery of mailings to every household or every elector, eligibility to make referendum broadcasts and the use of public rooms. I hope that is helpful.
I accept the point that my noble friend is making about there being a certain degree of confusion because of the way in which PPERA intersects with this Bill. However, we are talking not about spending but about a cap on the amount that can be spent. The reason for having that cap is, surely, to ensure fairness. Where is the fairness in having a cap which is 2.3 times higher for one side of the campaign than for the other?
My Lords, my noble friend is, again, conflating spending by a political party—which may not end up being a designated lead campaigner—with spending by a designated lead campaigner. To do that, we would have to change the whole nature of how this country allows its elections to be run. All I can say is that before PPERA was put into statute, matters such as this were considered, and the resulting Act tried to come to the fairest conclusion. With regard to the changes my noble friend referred to, the increase in the total amount reflects the fact that the Act received Royal Assent in 2000. The amount has merely been raised in line with inflation. No remarks were made about that in another place My noble friend Lord Hamilton cast scorn on his own amendment, Amendment 40. I appreciate that he tabled it because of the concern—expressed firmly here today but also in another place—about the capacity of well-funded individuals and organisations to use their spending power to influence the outcome of the referendum, as indeed might be the case in any election. My noble friend invited me not to go into too much detail on his amendment, and many of his concerns were aired in the debate on my noble friend Lord Forsyth’s amendment, so I am grateful to him for that The Bill includes additional controls on campaigners acting in concert, which means that where expenses are incurred as part of a common plan, they will usually count towards the spending limit of each campaigner that is party to the plan. This is supported by the Electoral Commission and aims to prevent groups of individuals or bodies colluding to circumvent spending limits. This is a well-established approach which is practical and enforceable but which also, most importantly, encourages participation The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, spoke to amendments on behalf of his noble friend Lord Liddle. I will explain the import of the amendments, were they to go into the Bill, and then address his pertinent point about how the Government should make their case in a statement and get information to the public. Amendment 58 would provide for every individual elector to receive a statement from each of the official lead campaigns, as well as a statement of the Government’s position through the post, although the amendment does not specify that the Government’s position must be contained within the same document. PPERA already confers a significant number of benefits on the designated lead campaigners. As I mentioned a moment ago when I was invited to list them by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, they include a free mail delivery to every household or every elector. We expect, naturally, that this opportunity will be taken up by the lead campaigners. In that respect, the noble Lord’s amendment duplicates existing provision However, I appreciate that the noble Lord perhaps intended his amendment to do something else: to hold the Government to account by requiring them to make a statement about what had happened in the negotiations and what the results were. We had a discussion about this on Monday in Committee in the three or four groups relating to information. The noble Lord’s amendment puts the Government in a position where they would be required to provide the statement during the period of purdah, which is not the Government’s intention. Our discussions on Monday made it very clear that the Committee wanted the Government to consider carefully how we should make a statement about our position. I made a clear commitment on Monday to look at these matters and to see what I could bring forward on Report by way of an amendment that would apply to the information being provided before the essential period of purdah My noble friend Lord Forsyth had the lead amendment in the last group we debated on Monday, which I think gave us a very good starting point to have a fair description of what the Government have achieved without using it as a campaigning document. I happily give way to the noble Lord if that does not answer his point on Amendment 58.
The noble Baroness will have understood that the important thing in my mind is that the Government state clearly to the public what they think about these things. In my view, if there is a deal, there should be a clear document setting out the Government’s description of that deal. During the campaign, a document should be made available setting out the authoritative case the Government are making in favour—if they are making such a case—of our remaining in the European Union. We should not be in a situation in which we just have to refer to ministerial speeches, or to this, that or the other kind of leak or suggestion. There should be one authoritative document, to which everybody in the campaign can refer. The Government seem to be shying away from that, which I very much regret. It is rather like the chairman of a company refusing to make a statement to shareholders about an important event for the company at an EGM. It is an abdication of the Government’s responsibility. In my view, that statement should be made. It could be made just before the purdah period— 29 or 30 days before the vote. That would be perfectly acceptable and would get round the purdah point.
My Lords, I obviously did not make it clear: we are proposing to do exactly what the noble Lord requires. That was my commitment on Monday, and we are in negotiation with noble Lords about what an amendment to that effect might look like. It is clear that any amendment from the Government must be acceptable to both Houses of Parliament and not just one, because it will have to go into the Bill. This is a matter we take very seriously, because of course the public should receive this information. There is no abdication of responsibility whatever. We are on the front foot on this, albeit carefully. Perhaps I should say we are on both front feet—trying not to fall over—so that it is an even playing field Amendment 59 would provide that the designated lead organisations for “leave” and for “remain” would receive a full-page advertisement in each UK national newspaper in the last 10 days of the campaign. I have already explained what the lead campaigners are entitled to. Appointing lead campaigners and providing them with these benefits seeks to ensure that both sides of the argument in a referendum are given an opportunity clearly and effectively to make their cases. The benefits, most notably broadcast and the mailings, represent well-established electoral tools to ensure that voters have information from both sides The noble Lord’s amendment suggests that the current benefits are insufficient to achieve this outcome and need to be expanded to include adverts and newspapers. For the amendment to be consistent with the provisions relating to the other benefits that campaigners receive, the benefit would have only to extend to avoiding the cost of placing the advert in the newspaper. All expenses incurred in designing and producing the advert would fall to be met by the campaigner and count against the spending limit. I make it clear that there is nothing in PPERA or the Bill which prevents campaigners taking out adverts in newspapers if they so wish. The noble Lord’s amendment would require them to do it and to incur the costs of preparing the advert.
The noble Baroness has not made a very persuasive case for me to withdraw my amendment. I am not referring to other amendments in the group. She has spoken, if I understand her rightly, as if Scotland were a faraway, foreign state with which we had nothing to do. When the legislation was passed to enact the referendum in Scotland it was felt that this provision needed to be put in to prevent any possibility of gaming. Our own Constitution Committee has warned the House—and that includes the Minister—that there is a risk of that here, and the Government appear not to wish to take any account of it When it is suggested that to put such a provision in would make the playing field less even, that is to ignore the fact that if there were gaming which resulted in there being no single designated organisation on one side, that would mean there would be no funds for the other side and there would be a level playing field: it would be nuclear winter. That would not be, I suggest, a satisfactory playing field on which to play, any more than nuclear winter is satisfactory. If we deprive an organisation that has properly designated itself of any possibility to get funds in the campaign, I do not think the Minister would think that that would be a very fair way to proceed. I do not quite know how we are to move forward on this.
May I intervene?
Yes, please.
I was trying not to force my way in, as I must sometimes do: I know that noble Lords have been lively today. I sought to point out earlier that the Government have evaluated the risk with regard to the referendum on the European Union, remain or leave, and put it in the category where we feel that there is enough public interest that there will be somebody who will apply—and not just one, perhaps more—to be considered as a designated lead campaigner. So that will not arise. Clearly, I did not make enough of an effort to explain it in full, but I hoped I had set out the dangers there would be if the Electoral Commission appointed only one lead campaigner and the voice of another could be stifled to the benefit of one.
The noble Baroness is ignoring a risk. It may not be a very high risk and if this amendment were accepted it would be a nil risk. She seems to be saying that the Government would prefer to run even a very small risk of this situation occurring than put a provision in the Bill which made it absolutely certain that it would not occur. I feel that that is a little unreasonable The noble Baroness will have noticed that my amendment has been supported on all sides of the Committee and both sides of the argument. Is she really unable to say two things? The first is that if the Government’s view on this prevails and the amendment is not accepted, she will give a commitment that if, sometime in the next few months, it becomes clear that there is not going to be a properly designated organisation on both sides, the Government will then legislate, in emergency legislation, to ensure that the other side will not be deprived of any funds. If she gave that undertaking, it would be very helpful. If she cannot give that undertaking, will she at least take this away and look at it a bit longer? We have a space between now and Report and I do not believe that this amendment is open to the suggestion of unfairness. As far as I know, nobody in Scotland complained.
My Lords, I do not think that the Committee would wish to contemplate even further legislation, but I can certainly contemplate further consideration on the basis of what the noble Lord has said. I have to say that I thought we had considered properly before today, but of course I always listen to the points made by the noble Lord and am prepared to do so before Report.
I have a question for the noble Lord about the potential risk. My understanding is that the risk is not simply gaming on the part of one side to deprive the other of funding. We constantly talk about funding when, actually, it is access to broadcast, access to free mail and all the other things that go with being a designated organisation. In evaluating the risk, does the noble Lord recognise a difficulty? Say, for example, there is no consensus among the leave campaign, so we end up with three, two or four organisations. Is the Electoral Commission, in those circumstances, permitted to decide on the merits of two or three, or does it have to say there is no lead designation?
I am not knowledgeable enough to answer the noble Lord’s question. I shall come to the Minister’s last intervention, which was helpful, in a minute, but I think she underestimates the range of possibilities Of course, our own Constitution Committee has raised the issue of gaming and that must be one risk, but I think there are other risks. One concerns whatever attempt the Electoral Commission makes to come to a conclusion about the designated organisation on the leave side. I do not think there will be any problem on the remain side—I cannot be certain about that, but I do not think there will be; it does not look as though there will be—but on the other side there is obviously the potential for a really serious problem. There are already two organisations, a third is said to be going to enter the fray, and if these organisations go on slugging it out and the Electoral Commission tries to adjudicate, the matter could then go to judicial review. The decision of the Electoral Commission could be appealed on judicial review. That would mean, as the present law is drafted, that the remain campaign would be deprived of all the advantages that exist for a designated organisation. That is pretty serious, frankly. What I feel is unreasonable about this is that, were this amendment accepted, none of that would happen I accept the noble Baroness’s offer to take this away and reflect further; she is always extremely fair in her dealings with the House. She has said she will go away and consider this further and that there will be further contacts with various noble Lords who have tabled amendments. We have a little time before Report, but I honestly think that the risk, even if it is a 1% risk, should be dealt with here and now. The case for that is pretty strong. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
My Lords, I shall speak also to my Amendments 36, 43 and 46. This group of amendments deals with the restrictions on the Government and publicly funded persons and bodies under Section 125 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 and Clause 6 of the Bill. My amendments ensure that, for the purposes of the referendum, the definition of public funds in PPERA encompasses Gibraltar public funds In addition, government Amendment 45 ensures that the provision on restrictions on the Government and publicly funded persons and bodies publishing material in the 28 days ending with the poll also applies to the Government of Gibraltar and other bodies that are funded from Gibraltar public funds. Finally among my amendments, government Amendment 51 ensures that exclusions in any regulations made under Clause 6 would also apply to the Government of Gibraltar and other bodies funded from Gibraltar public funds The issue of Section 125 and Clause 6 has been the subject of much debate already. I take this opportunity, before I conclude my words on my amendments, to set out clearly to the Committee the Government’s position on the issue, having carefully considered the views expressed at Second Reading I can assure noble Lords that the Government do not intend to bring forward amendments to the Bill in relation to the restrictions on the Government publishing material in the final 28 days of the campaign. We have, however, as I said, put amendments before the Committee that ensure that the restrictions apply to the Government of Gibraltar and publicly funded bodies in Gibraltar. Nor do we have plans to bring forward regulations under Clause 6. The Government have accepted the outcome of the debate in another place and the arguments put forward at Second Reading, and are not seeking to disapply Section 125 In the Commons, we highlighted the risk that Section 125 may give rise to legal challenge because it is so widely drawn. We sought to reduce that risk of challenge by putting it beyond doubt that business as usual is not in scope of Section 125. However, another place did not accept the Government’s amendment to the section We agree with another place that Section 125 cannot have been intended to prevent the Government acting as the Government in carrying out routine business, including in the EU, in the last 28 days before the date of poll. We think this gives the Government a strong argument to defend against any legal challenge to wider EU business carried out in the final 28 days Let me be clear: we have no plans to bring forward any regulations to provide exemptions from Section 125. It remains our view that it would be wise for Clause 6 to remain in the Bill, but the issue is clear. There could be some completely unforeseen eventuality when the House would consider it appropriate that regulations should be brought forward. The Bill is clear on that, if it were to happen, but we do not foresee it and it is not our intent. We could not rush Parliament or the public with proposed changes at short notice. Any regulations would need to be made at least four months ahead of the poll, in consultation with the Electoral Commission The addition of the power was the considered view of another place and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which said that the approach of using regulations to specify exceptions was appropriate I know how much interest there is in this subject, and I shall listen very carefully to the debate this evening. I know that there was a little error in the PA report of something I said on the first day of Committee, when I said that we were not going to have a snap poll. The report left out “not”, which caused a little frisson in one or two newspapers. I repeat that we have no plans to bring forward any regulations to provide exemptions from Section 125 In the light of that, at this stage, I wait to hear the views of other noble Lords on their amendments which lie in this large group, but I beg to move.
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 38, 39, 52 and 54 in my name and that of others. Amendment 38 is designed to strengthen the controls on public money and resources during the purdah period. As my noble friend will know, Section 125 of the 2000 Act only prevents the Government publishing certain materials. It does not apply to general government activity during the final four weeks of the campaign, which remains regulated by constitutional convention, not by statute The amendment would prevent the Government campaigning and trying to promote a leave or remain vote in the purdah period, and restrict taxpayer-funded special advisers—who, we must remember, are civil servants and paid civil servants—from assisting in referendum campaigns during the purdah period Amendment 39 would prevent EU institutions incurring referendum expenses or doing anything to procure a remain vote during the referendum period. Both the Government and the Electoral Commission accepted that principle when similar amendments were tabled in another place. However, they claimed that the law was sufficient to prevent EU campaigning. That is mistaken. The law referred to is the European Communities Act 1972, which provides EU institutions with full authority to engage in activities authorised by EU law. The 1972 Act must be specifically disapplied for the EU institutions to be made subject to the same campaign controls as other foreign Governments Amendment 52 is a short amendment to do with the Electoral Commission. At the moment, the Bill advises that Ministers should “consult” the Electoral Commission. The amendment adds “and obtain the consent”, which is an important adjustment, because we must be bound by the Electoral Commission Amendment 54 would leave out subsection (8), which means that Section 4(1)(c) could enable the Government to abolish purdah together. I am sure that is not their intention in the Bill, and therefore I commend the amendments.
My Lords, I am very relieved that my noble friend Lord Hamilton did not say that his amendments were nonsense this time, because I support them. I do so because I am concerned about a situation where the prospectus being put to the country is not exactly false but uncertain—where, not necessarily through any fault of their own, the Government have reached an agreement which all sides think is fine but where there is an endemic structure within it that makes it unstable. I can best illustrate the situation by very briefly going through what I understand to be the four objectives of the Government in their negotiations The first objective is to stop the ever-closer union. One has to say that although all sides might be able to agree to that in words, there is the acquis communautaire —the acquis communautaire is endemic within the treaty. It is there to self-implode in this context, particularly as it has always supported the move towards a centralised Europe, the European Union, by the court The second objective is more competition. The European Union is a trade bloc. Trade blocs exist to protect themselves against foreign competition outside the trade bloc, otherwise there is no point in having a trade bloc in the first place. A trade bloc is and always will be anti-competitive The multicurrency objective—that we should be allowed to have lots of currencies—is next. When we were discussing the Maastricht treaty in the other place I always felt that an endemic feature of a single European Union is that there will eventually have to be a single currency. That is always put the other way round—that a single currency means that you will have to have a single Government—but the converse is also true: that to have a single union you will ultimately have to have, if the union is to mean anything at all, a single currency. The fourth objective is to deal with immigration. I cannot think of any union, market or trade bloc that does not ultimately have freedom of movement of the people within it I have to say that, through no fault of the Government’s own—the various countries may well establish an agreement in the negotiations—the agreement will be unstable for the reasons I have just given. We therefore need the kind of spending restrictions implied in my noble friend’s amendments.
My Lords, I speak to Amendment 55, which stands in my name. It seems to me that the problem that we are facing comes from the very wide language of the PPERA, which clearly was not intended to deal with the problem that I am drawing attention to. No Minister or servant of the Crown can publish any information which deals with any of the issues raised by the question during the 28 days—and “publish” is defined very widely as making, “available to the public at large, or any section of the public, in whatever form and by whatever means” My worry is whether that might prove obstructive to the conduct of government business in Brussels. Ministers will continue to go there, European Union committees and the Council will continue to meet, and the myriad working groups will continue their work. It seems to me that it would be possible to construe that everything said—such as a document or briefing note passed to Members of the European Parliament, a document sent to the Commission or a pleading before the court—could be said to be relevant to the issue of the question of the referendum and could be caught by this 28-day ban I am sure that that was nobody’s intention, and I quite understand why the Minister does not wish to go back and reopen the language that we are confronted with. I am sure that people such as Mr Bernard Jenkin, who spoke on the purdah issue in the Commons, had no intention of making it impossible for the Government to carry out their business in Brussels. These are honourable people making a completely different point I am puzzled by the noble Baroness saying that she is confident that the Government would have a sufficient defence if challenged during the 28-day period. I am concerned about that. It seems to me that a judicial review—a challenge in court—could be disruptive to business, even if that challenge was successfully resisted in court. It seems to me that the possibility of the challenge might be an inhibition on our people in Brussels who are working in the national interest, doing the job they are meant to do. I am therefore very puzzled by what I think I heard the noble Baroness say—that she did not envisage making any regulations on this issue. I do not know whether we can be sure. If I were the Permanent Representative, I would be very uncertain whether I would be able to do what I am paid to do with the threat of legal challenge I may be exaggerating the problem but it is certainly a real one. Mr Lidington, Minister of State in the Foreign Office, told the European Union Committee in evidence in July that Section 125 of the PPERA would make it, “very difficult if not impossible for us to undertake a whole range of routine EU business in the four weeks leading up to the referendum date” I admit that Mr Lidington said that in the context of the presidency. The hypothetical question was: “Suppose that the referendum date and the 28 days fell within the second half of 2017, during the UK presidency of the EU”. He was talking about how very difficult if not impossible it would be to undertake a whole range of routine EU business as the presidency. However, it seems to me that if it would be difficult to advance and defend the EU interest, as the presidency is meant to do, it would be just as difficult to advance and defend the UK interest, which is the daily business of our representatives in Brussels.
I am listening very carefully to what the noble Lord is saying—and of course he has huge knowledge of this—but Section 125 refers to “promotional material”. That is what it talks about. It says that it specifically excludes material which is requested by a member of the public. If the Scotch Whisky Association or somebody wanted a particular copy of something that had been discussed, they would still be able to do that. What this prohibits is promotional material. Surely that is wholly right—that promotional material should not be allowed in this way.
If the noble Lord is right, I am delighted. If the meaning of Section 125 of the PPERA is that only material of a particular kind defined as “promotional” is caught, my problem is much smaller; in fact; it disappears. But it seems to me that the language of the Act says that any Minister of the Crown, government department or local authority may not “publish”, which, “means make available to the public at large, or any section of the public, in whatever form and by whatever means”— for 28 days, any material bearing on the issue that is in the question. If that is to be the case, then for 28 days we are going to be saying, “Stop the world while we consider whether we want to get off”. I worry that the answer to that is to say, “Don’t be silly; we would defend ourselves in court”. The atmosphere might be quite febrile. There might be legal challenges brought. I think there would be a considerable inhibition on the public service doing its job I ask the Minister to look at my amendment, which would not require the making of any regulations. It would simply create a small carve-out, an exemption, for the normal business of the Government with the European Union, in and with the Council, with the Commission, with the Court and with the Parliament. It seems to me that that is much safer ground on which to rest than the thought of defending challenges in court. I am quite sure that when they drafted the PPERA nobody intended Section 125 to have effect on the pursuit of government interests and policies abroad. I am sure that that was not what they had in mind. I am sure that nobody in the other place, in the great debates that took place there over purdah, had it in mind to make it more difficult for the Government to defend the national interest in Brussels. I would argue for my amendment as the simplest way in which to deal with that problem.
My Lords, I should like to speak to Amendments 53, 56, 61A and 61D, in my name. First, I say thank you to my noble friend the Minister for her decision to abandon making regulations under Clause 6(2). That is a fantastic step forward. Many of us expressed concern about that at Second Reading. It makes my Amendment 53, which simply required notice of any change, look a bit feeble, so I am extremely grateful. Given that my noble friend has undertaken not to make any regulations modifying Section 125 for the purposes of the referendum, I wonder whether she might be amenable to removing it from the Bill altogether, so there is no ambiguity about the position, thus ending the concerns which have been expressed. I commend the notes prepared on the PPERA, which makes it clear that Section 125, as my noble friend Lord Lamont pointed out, is concerned with promotional material. Although I have tried very hard to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, I do not think it is necessary, given that the Government are not planning to make regulations under Section 125, the fear having been that it would be used as a back-door route to get round purdah. That is a great step forward The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, referred to the Scottish referendum campaign. In considering the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, one thing that I recalled was extremely irritating in the Scottish referendum campaign was how, in the last few days, the Government suddenly published, in concert with the other political parties, a vow, which has caused us endless difficulties subsequently. An amendment such as that of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, would open the door to that kind of activity, which is thoroughly unhelpful. The noble Lord is groaning, but I am sure he takes the point At Second Reading, I asked whether the restrictions and purdah imposed under Section 125 would apply to the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland Governments and to the European Commission. My noble friend said that, yes, they would apply to any person and there was no cause for concern. As my noble friend will see, I have tabled Amendment 56, which restricts the promotion of promotional material by the Scottish and Welsh Governments, the Northern Ireland Executive and the European Commission. That is not because I thought my noble friend was wrong in the assurances she gave, but because it relates to Amendment 61A, which introduces a personal surcharge on anyone who incurs expenditure in breach of these rules. This may not be the best way to do it, but I tabled the amendment because I was astonished to discover that, although Section 125 imposes purdah and restrictions, if anyone chooses to breach that purdah there is absolutely no penalty for doing so. Therefore, we have a paper tiger. All that can be done is to seek judicial review of that action, by which time the train will have left the station. The notion that a referendum could be rerun because there was a breach of purdah is stretching credulity to the point of fantasy. We had this great argument about purdah and Section 125—it has been through the other place and come here—but there is actually no penalty The Electoral Commission thinks that my amendment might go a bit far. However, there are precedents; I remember Dame Shirley Porter being personally fined no less than £20 million. The surcharge rules have since been taken out of local government legislation, but they certainly existed—and it would certainly concentrate the minds of the Scottish Government or anyone else tempted to breach purdah if there was some kind of sanction. I propose this in the hope that my noble friend will respond to the concerns expressed by the Electoral Commission—if not by me and others—and consider what sanction could be put in place to ensure that the purdah rules are observed Then, of course, we have the European Union and its institutions. It is difficult to see how we could have any sanction as, of course, we are mere vassals of the European Union. How could we possibly punish it for, or indeed prevent it, breaching purdah? Amendment 61D is an attempt to reach a negotiation—an approach that I know the Prime Minister is keen on to deal with the difficulties we have with the European Union. It proposes that there should be a negotiation now to, “conclude an agreement between the Government and the institutions of the European Union, to the effect that the institutions will … abide by the provisions of section 125”, and not be tempted to take on a promotional or campaigning role during the referendum My noble friend will no doubt tell me that that is very unlikely. However, I happened to read a piece in a newspaper a fortnight ago—I assumed it was some kind of joke—suggesting that in Scotland, the European Union was going to require farmers to put up in their fields posters indicating that they were supported by the European Union, and that the size of the posters would be determined by the amount of subsidy they received. The prospect of all the fields in Scotland being adorned with European flags and messages telling the public how generous the European Union had been in spending the money which we gave them in the first place, while we were in the sensitive period of a referendum campaign, seemed rather chilling. That makes my Amendment 61D rather important, because I would interpret suddenly providing new publicity to mislead the public about the extent of the support provided by the European Union to those farmers as an example of exactly the thing I am concerned about—and, of course, something the Government can do nothing about Even if my noble friend does not accept the substance of these amendments, I hope she will take them away and consider how we can strengthen the position in respect of Section 125—and perhaps even consider removing Clause 6(2) from the Bill altogether, or even Clause 6 itself, although she has said that that would be a step too far. I am most grateful to my noble friend, who has responded to the concerns expressed in the other place and delivered what it wanted, and responded to the concerns expressed by many noble Lords on Second Reading.
The noble Lord referred to the notices that our masters in Brussels have required to be erected all over the countryside. I have an idea for the farmers in question. Alongside the notice that gives the great news that our masters in Brussels have given us so much money, they could put up a notice saying, “PS. Of course, for every pound they give us, we will have given them £2.66”—which I think is the present amount. Perhaps that would put those notices into perspective, because there is no such thing as European aid to this country, as I am sure all noble Lords will agree.
Does the noble Lord not agree, though, that if somebody did something as impudent as that, measures would be taken to take their grant away?
I do not think they would be in a position to do that. If farmers were forced to do that, it would be a very good thing for those of us who wish to leave the European Union On Amendment 61D, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, he worries about the provision not having enough teeth to ensure that the European Commission behaves itself—which, of course, I forecast it will not. One could add on Report a clause which says that any money the European Union does spend in this regard can be deducted from the £12.5 billion net that we are sending to Brussels at the moment. Perhaps we can get the money back that way.
I was concerned not about the money but about the expenditure taking place within the campaign, which was breaching the rules of purdah—that is, the use of the money, rather than the actual amount.
I accept that; but if they knew they were going to lose the money if they spent it, they might be less inclined to spend it.
Of course, in the other place the Opposition resisted strongly the disapplication of purdah provisions and the other place agreed with that. Therefore, our position is quite clear. Obviously, however, Clause 6 was agreed to in the other place. I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is saying, but I am not sure that I quite understood his interpretation of the noble Baroness’s remarks. There is clear indication that there is no intention to lay regulations. There may be a risk, but we do not know: there are unforeseen circumstances. I am assuming that Clause 6 will be retained, and we would support that if it enables the Government to respond to something unforeseen. I assume that is what the noble Baroness is saying, and that is why we would support that. I am certainly sympathetic to the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr.
Before the noble Lord leaves that point, could he give one example of something that might justify making the regulations?
I fear I might sound like Donald Rumsfeld if I did—talking about the unknown unknowns and the known unknowns—and I will resist the temptation. I will leave it in the capable hands of the Minister to give those examples However, this group of amendments gives rise to some issues, including how we define the actions of Ministers and special advisers, and the question of acting in a personal capacity. I fear that all these things are incredibly difficult to prescribe, not least: when is a Minister not a Minister; when is a spad not a spad? What about when they are working at home at weekends? The situation is clear with matters such as having no government transport, or no paid facilities when campaigning.
The noble Lord asks, when is a spad not a spad? A special adviser is paid as a civil servant, so surely he should never get involved in matters such as a referendum.
The difficulty is in the name itself. A special political adviser is not like a civil servant, though they are governed by certain Civil Service rules. Let us talk about Ministers—when is a Minister not a Minister? Such things are very difficult to legislate on, so there are problems. When special advisers are members of political parties, they are often engaged in political discussions. It seems very difficult to legislate in this Bill about how we govern them A good point is being made about the question of EU institutions. The Electoral Commission, which the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has quoted, has said that although we cannot necessarily legislate about these things, we can ensure that there is clear guidance agreed between the parties. That is a good idea. On Amendment 55, we would appreciate the Minister repeating her assurances that normal business can be conducted and that the requirements of Section 125 will not impinge on that. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has quoted the Electoral Commission, which is satisfied that the Scottish and Welsh Governments and the Northern Ireland Executive are covered by the requirements of Section 125. However, the noble Lord made a very good point about regulations and sanctions. In fact, the perpetrators do not get fined—it is the victims who get fined and the taxpayers who pay for the offence. That is something we need to look into, but I am pretty certain that clauses in a Bill are not the appropriate way to do so. We have had debates recently about the Ministerial Code. Perhaps we could table another quick amendment to ensure that what is required of Ministers is clear. That could also apply to Civil Service codes. It is within the powers of the Government to act on what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is seeking, without necessarily supporting his amendment.
My Lords, in my opening speech to this group of amendments I set out the Government’s position on Section 125 of PPERA and Clause 6 of the EU Referendum Bill. This is a complicated group of amendments, so I suggest that I take them sequentially as much as possible. I will further elucidate the position on Clause 6. In particular, the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, has assisted the debate today and I am grateful to him—I know that it was his intention to facilitate a debate in the House in a constructive way Amendment 38, tabled in the name of my noble friend Lord Hamilton, relates to the involvement of Ministers, departments and local authorities in activities for referendum purposes in the 28 days before the referendum. I can assure my noble friend that his proposed amendment duplicates to a certain extent provisions already included in the Bill Section 125 of PPERA places restrictions on publicly funded bodies and persons from publishing certain material in relation to the referendum in the final 28 days of the campaign. The restrictions of this section will apply, in full, following an amendment made on Report in the other place, which was referred to by noble Lords. These restrictions will apply not only to Ministers, government departments and local authorities, but also to other publicly funded persons and bodies. The Government have consistently been clear that we will not undertake any campaigning activity during the 28-day restricted period In addition, Ministers and civil servants, including special advisers, are subject to purdah guidance which will be issued in advance of the restricted period. This guidance will reflect the statutory provisions. Special advisers are covered. In line with long-standing precedent and convention, this guidance will make it clear that Ministers and civil servants, including special advisers, will not undertake campaign-related activity during the 28-day period. I hope my noble friend will understand that we do not support his amendment as it specifically relates to special advisers. It is already there—it is dealt with by Section 125. Ministers acting in their official capacity, advised by special advisers and other civil servants, will be prohibited from publishing certain material in relation to the referendum in the final 28 days of the campaign. A publication by a special adviser on behalf of a Minister would also be covered by the prohibition. The role of special advisers is set out in the special advisers’ code of conduct. This code includes clear provisions in respect of special advisers’ involvement in national political activity. They will be subject to the purdah guidance that will be issued to departments ahead of the 28-day restricted period. Any campaign activity that might be undertaken by special advisers must be in their own time, outside office hours and without the use of government resources. They cannot think they can do it while on annual leave; that does not work. If a special adviser wanted to campaign full time or publicly, they would first have to resign from their government post. It is right that special advisers are able to undertake other activity in their own time and without the use of official resources. My noble friend’s Amendment 38 would inhibit their ability to do so and we believe it would place unfair restrictions on this particular group. I hope my noble friend will understand that I do not support his Amendment 38 My noble friend’s Amendment 39 relates to the role of the EU institutions. It seeks to prevent the EU institution donating to permitted participants or directly campaigning at the EU referendum. Turning first to the issue of donations, I understand my noble friend’s concerns. This is a debate about the UK’s membership of the EU, and we need sensible controls on who can spend money to influence the outcome. As we have already discussed on previous groups, PPERA provides controls on spending and on foreign funding of permitted participants. Broadly speaking, the list of those eligible to donate to permitted participants is the same as the list of permissible donors to political parties as set out in PPERA. However, we have extended the list to take account of the inclusion of Gibraltar in this referendum and to include the bodies that since the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Act have been eligible to become third-party campaigners at elections. Significantly, this means that permitted participants cannot accept donations of more than £500 from anyone who is not a permissible donor. The list of permissible donors does not include the European institutions. My noble friend referred to the European Communities Act 1972, but the provisions of that Act have no bearing on this. I can assure my noble friend that it does not provide the European institutions with a get-out. Permitted participants cannot accept donations of more than £500 from the EU institutions. It is banned My noble friend’s amendment aims further to prevent the EU institutions, including the European Commission, campaigning at the referendum. I am sure my noble friend is aware that under the European Union Referendum Bill the EU institutions are not on the list of those eligible to register as a permitted participant. In relation to campaigning, the Bill does not place controls on the activities of the EU institutions directly, which I know is my noble friend’s concern. That is because our national legislation does not regulate behaviour outside our jurisdiction, but also because if the institutions are operating within our jurisdiction, they are afforded immunities and privileges under EU law. We recognise my noble friend’s concern, which is shared by others, but we believe that the best way to prevent the EU institutions influencing the outcome of the referendum is through a process of constructive dialogue. I can assure the Committee that Ministers are already deeply involved in just that I now turn to the amendments which relate to Clause 6. I shall again go sequentially for the moment and then deal with Clause 6 as a whole. I have already explained the history of what happened to Clause 6, so I shall not weary the Committee by doing it again. My noble friend Lord Hamilton has expressed further concern about the clause. He explained that Amendment 52 provides that the Government must obtain the consent of the Electoral Commission before making regulations under Clause 6. The clause as it stands requires Ministers to consult the Electoral Commission prior to making regulations. This is consistent with other provisions in electoral law that require the Electoral Commission to be consulted on proposed legislative changes. However, Ministers are not obliged to obtain the Electoral Commission’s agreement, and we do not think it is necessary to take a different approach for the EU referendum My noble friend Lord Hamilton tabled Amendment 54, which removes subsection (8), to ensure that we do not go back on our word that we will not reintroduce the exemption from purdah. As I understand it, he thinks that subsection (8) would give the Government the opportunity to reinstate the original exemption from purdah. I assure him that the way Clause 6 is drafted means that the subsection he is worried about would give powers to act only in matters not related to Section 125 or to matters of purdah. We do not intend to abolish purdah. Subsection (8) simply does not give the Government the power to do that My noble friend Lord Forsyth kindly indicated that he would not proceed with Amendment 53, so I hope he will allow me not to cover that now. He asked me for clarification on my statement at the beginning with regard to the proposals about Clause 6. I repeat that we do not plan to bring forward any regulations under the provisions of Clause 6. At the moment, we do not see the eventuality where we would wish to do so. We have considered this very carefully, and I will refer to that again when I refer to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. I shall subsume the two amendments Amendment 55, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, seeks to ensure that normal government business, including business between the Government and the EU institutions, is not covered by the restrictions that will apply to the Government in the final 28 days. The noble Lord has given the Government the opportunity again to look very carefully at the estimate of the level of risk to government business. I can assure the Committee that the Government have been considering these matters very carefully since the consideration in the House of Commons at Third Reading earlier this autumn. We have considered this in great detail from that moment, we continue to do so and we listened to this House at Second Reading. The Government agree that there is a risk that Section 125 may give rise to legal challenge because it is so widely drawn. That is still our position. We tabled an amendment in the other place, which was not accepted, and we live with that decision by another place.
Can my noble friend give us an example of something unexpected that might happen that could justify using these powers?
My Lords, I just referred to the fact that a Government must have care for the security of their public. I therefore think it would be unwise to venture into any speculation on what that might be. I ought to say, out of courtesy to my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Hamilton, a word about Amendments 56 and 57—more than a word or two, by the look of this. Both Amendments 56 and 57 provide that the restrictions on publications and certain material in Section 125 also apply to the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive and to Welsh and Scottish Ministers as well as Ministers in Northern Ireland Amendment 61A, tabled in the name of my noble friend Lord Forsyth, provides for the Electoral Commission to propose a surcharge. I beg his pardon; my noble friend explained that he tabled his amendment because of Amendment 61A. I will come to his amendment later because it is rather different from that of my noble friend Lord Hamilton I can assure my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Hamilton that we do not believe there is a need for clarification because Section 125 already applies to the devolved Administrations and Ministers in those Administrations, because they fall within the definition of persons or bodies whose expenses are met wholly or mainly from public funds. Therefore, Section 160 of the PPERA provides a definition of public funds that includes payments made out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom, the Scottish Consolidated Fund, the Welsh Consolidated Fund or the Consolidated Fund of Northern Ireland. Therefore, it really is clear that there is no need for this amendment I know that my noble friend Lord Hamilton referred to Amendment 57—which seeks to place restrictions in Section 125 on the Government of Gibraltar—as being for the avoidance of doubt, but Amendment 45 in my name, which refers to the Government of Gibraltar, modifies Section 125 for the purposes of a referendum so that the restrictions apply to the Government of Gibraltar, a government department of Gibraltar or any other body wholly or mainly funded from Gibraltar public funds. Therefore, my Amendment 45 should please my noble friend because it delivers what he wants. I can assure the Committee that the Government of Gibraltar, like the devolved Administrations and their Ministers, will therefore be subject to the restrictions in Section 125 My noble friend Lord Forsyth also seeks to place restrictions under Section 125 on publications by the European Commission. Amendment 61D, in my noble friend’s name, seeks to achieve a similar end and place a dialogue between the Government and European Union institutions on a statutory basis, rather than the procedure I have already outlined. My noble friend would require the Government to seek a voluntary assurance from the EU institutions that they will comply with the provisions of Section 125 I am not convinced that it is appropriate to make a statutory provision for voluntary assurance, but I can assure my noble friend that the Government will continue, as I mentioned earlier, to work with the EU institutions to prevent undue influence. Decision on our membership of the EU is rightly a matter for us—for the British public alone. Some of my ministerial colleagues and officials have been engaging with their counterparts in the European Union to explain that this is a question for the British people. The Bill makes that clear by omitting the institutions and foreign Governments from the list of permissible donors. I can say to my noble friend that we have received reassurances that the European Commission understands that this is a matter for the British people, and they will take no active part in the campaign.
My noble friend said I want to make Amendment 61D statutory. All it says is that the Government should have discussions with the European Union’s institutions—which my noble friend says we are doing—but that the Secretary of State should lay before each House of Parliament a copy of any agreement that could be concluded. Can my noble friend give an undertaking that the terms of the agreement that has been reached with the European Union should be made available to both Houses of Parliament?
The reason I say that my noble friend’s provision was intended to be statutory is in the very nature of an amendment; if it were go to go into the Bill, it would become statutory. My noble friend makes a request about what information may be available from the European Commission. I will look very carefully at that, to see what is already available and what we may achieve over the coming months. It is a reasonable request from my noble friend, and I will see what may be done. Clearly, there are circumstances in which discussions are going ahead from which a public document has not been produced, but if we are in a position where there is a public one, I will certainly do my best to provide that to my noble friend and to other noble Lords who are interested I ought to add, in parenthesis, that European officials are clearly aware of how counterproductive an intervention from Brussels might be, whatever it is. They will be taking clear account of that Amendment 61A, in the name of my noble friend Lord Forsyth, provides that the Electoral Commission should impose a surcharge if any body or person to which Section 125 applies breaches the restrictions in that section. I understand entirely what my noble friend seeks to do. He feels that there should be an immediate punishment rather than judicial review, but I say to him that the Electoral Commission has no role in the enforcement of Section 125. The Electoral Commission has made it absolutely clear that it does not welcome such a role. We consider the current arrangements sufficient—that where a breach of Section 125 might happen it should be subject to judicial review—but I certainly hear what my noble friend says. Even if I am not able to come to a conclusion that helps him, I will certainly look at that again to see if there is something that can avoid judicial review These matters have already been considered on many occasions, and it has not yet been possible to find a way of doing it succinctly. I can see that my noble friend wishes to intervene.
I am most grateful to my noble friend for that offer. She is being a little selective in quoting the Electoral Commission. It is true that it does not want the task of surcharging elected people, and one can see why it might recoil from that, but it is also true that it has said that the present position, where there is no sanction for people who breach purdah, is unsatisfactory and it has suggested that the Government should consider that. I would be grateful if my noble friend could come back on Report, because, clearly, if the Electoral Commission is saying that this is a paper tiger, it is certainly not acceptable.
My Lords, as I have said, we always listen very carefully to the views of noble Lords and consider the results of debates here. I hope I have been able to reassure noble Lords that we are trying to deal with the concerns that they have expressed. I know that it has been a long debate but it is one about which noble Lords felt very deeply. I therefore commend Amendment 35, which is in my name, and invite other noble Lords not to move their amendments when they are called.
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to improve the diagnosis and management of atrial fibrillation.
My Lords, I am honoured to have the opportunity to lead a debate on an issue which affects hundreds of thousands of our citizens, and I am grateful to all noble Lords who are taking part I have an interest to declare in this subject, but not one you can find in the register. It is that for many years I have had a form of AF known as paroxysmal atrial fibrillation. It is brought on by a significant rush of adrenalin—not the sort, of course, which comes from listening to debates in your Lordships’ House but the sort which comes from sudden exertion. I am lucky, however. A doctor diagnosed AF when I was in the midst of an episode and referred me to a specialist. Regular monitoring and medication ensure that, so long as I am careful, I have no problems. Today’s debate is about those who are not so lucky, either because they are not diagnosed or because they are not getting the right treatment Atrial fibrillation is a heart condition that causes an irregular and often unusually fast heartbeat. It happens when abnormal electrical signals fire from the top chambers of the heart in a way which overrides the heart’s natural pacemaker. The causes of AF are not fully understood, but it affects up to 1.5 million people in the UK, including around one in 10 people aged over 65. It often runs alongside other cardiac conditions such as high blood pressure or clogged arteries There are various ways to manage the condition, including drug therapy, cardioversion from electric shocks and, if all else fails, ablation, where areas of the heart causing the abnormal heart rate are destroyed by radio frequency pulses. The use of one or all of these methods makes AF a condition that is manageable provided it is diagnosed—and that is a key point for this debate. For while AF can be extremely uncomfortable, producing palpitations, chest pains and dizziness as a result of the heart racing at well over 100 beats a minute, it can present no symptoms at all. That is when it is at its most dangerous. Undiagnosed and untreated, a heart that is not beating regularly can lead to the formation of blood clots inside it which can then enter the general circulation in a way that blocks arteries in the brain; in other words, the cause of a stroke Diagnosis of AF is therefore a crucial public health issue, as many people—perhaps up to 750,000 in the UK—are simply not aware they have it, significantly increasing their risk of a stroke. According to NICE, around 7,000 strokes a year, and 2,000 premature deaths, are likely to result from the failure to detect AF and treat it with anticoagulant drugs. As Professor Mark Baker, NICE’s director of clinical practice, said: “This needs to change if we are to reduce the numbers of people with AF who die needlessly or suffer life-changing disability as a result of avoidable strokes” A good deal of progress has been made in recent years in dealing with this problem and I know how seriously the Department of Health and NHS England take it. I was enormously grateful to the former Health Minister, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, who met me to discuss it last year. I know that the Minister will take that work forward, and I look forward to hearing from him this evening what progress has been made in a number of areas, three of which I will highlight The first is improving diagnosis. In many ways, this could not be simpler, because it can be done through a plain old manual pulse check at an ordinary GP appointment. The irregular heartbeat is easy to feel; the examination takes seconds to do; and it is of course completely painless—one of those genuine occasions when, when the GP says, “This will not hurt”, it does not. Given that there is nothing like a practical demonstration, I can even show noble Lords how quick and easy it is. Next Tuesday morning, I shall host a drop-in event in association with AntiCoagulation Europe and Bayer HealthCare, where parliamentarians can come and get their pulse checked by an expert doctor who will be able to talk about this issue and advise on any irregularities in colleagues’ pulses. I hope that there will not be many of them, but it pays to be on the safe side, so I invite noble Lords to come along to Room G between 10 am and l pm to see what I mean Given that diagnosis is so easy and effective, why is a manual pulse check not routine, especially for over-65s? The reason is that the UK National Screening Committee, part of Public Health England, recommended in a report in June 2014 that it is, “uncertain that screening will do more good than harm … because … treatment and care for people with AF is not optimal” Given that we are talking about a simple test that saves lives, I do not believe that the quality of existing services—which have been improving but perhaps not rapidly enough—should be cited as a compelling reason not to introduce screening for AF. We need to do what we can, of course, to ensure that care becomes “optimal”, but, in the mean time, we should not endanger people who are unaware that they have this condition by failing to test them. Will the Minister join me in calling on Public Health England and the National Screening Committee to review this recommendation Once AF is diagnosed, it needs effectively to be treated. Some patients with AF need anticoagulation therapy to stop their blood clotting and reduce their risk of an AF-related stroke. Identifying those patients is not always straightforward but has been made much easier by the introduction of a new tool for GP practices called GRASP-AF, which helps identify patients at risk by assisting GPs to interrogate their clinical data. GRASP-AF is being rolled out across England, but data suggest that only about one-third of GP practices are using it. I would be grateful if the Minister could update us on the rollout of this programme and on what his department is doing to ensure that GPs most effectively assess AF patients’ risk of stroke My final point relates to the anticoagulant drugs that are used to treat AF where this is judged necessary by a GP or consultant. The most widely used treatment option in this area is warfarin, which has been deployed for over 50 years and has undoubtedly saved many lives. However, as many noble Lords will know, it is not an ideal drug, as it requires regular monitoring and dose adjustments to ensure that it is working properly, usually in a specialist anticoagulation clinic. This is a problem for those in full-time work, and often difficult for elderly or immobile people. My late father was on warfarin for the last few years of his life, and, as he was to all intents and purposes housebound, his regular tests became very complex and stressful for both my parents On top of that, many foods can interfere with warfarin or alter its effects, along with alcohol and some medicines. In other words, it is far from ideal. Warfarin is one of the most common causes of drug-related adverse events and is responsible for about 6% of all fatal and severe drug-related incidents. This is a terrible cost in lives and a substantial financial cost to the NHS. Many GPs therefore do not like prescribing it, and I can understand why. As a result, they either do not treat the condition at all—and audit data suggest that 46% of AF patients who should be on treatment to prevent blood clots are not—or they treat it with aspirin, which is not recommended by NICE Yet there is an effective alternative to warfarin in the form of novel oral anticoagulants, or NOACs. These drugs were developed specifically to overcome the limitations of warfarin which I have just described and are recommended by NICE as clinically effective for stroke prevention in AF as well as being cost-effective for the taxpayer. Treatment of AF through NOACs significantly improves a patient’s quality of life because it does not require routine monitoring or ongoing dose changes; it does not entail dietary restrictions; and it provides predictable, stable and regular levels of anticoagulation. Against that background, it would be advantageous both for patients and for the taxpayer if the use of NOACs was more widespread. However, at the moment, data from NHS England show that only 11% of anticoagulants prescribed are NOACs—possibly because of lack of clinical awareness and confidence in using them rather than warfarin, or because NICE guidance is being implemented too slowly Under the NHS constitution, patients should have access to the full range of treatment options recommended by NICE, but at the moment that does not seem to be the case. Will the Minister tell us what action is being taken to ensure that more patients have access to NOACs, in line with NICE guidance, and to reduce variations in their use across the country? For instance, might he consider providing specific support for clinical commissioning groups with the lowest rate of NOAC use, to ensure that patients in those areas have better access to treatment I greatly look forward greatly to the contributions of noble Lords this evening. This is no peripheral health issue, but one of real importance to the lives of hundreds of thousands of individuals and their families. Great progress has been made in recent years, but, thanks to the development of new drugs and new technology, more can be done. This is an occasion when a tiny hand on the tiller by my noble friend could mean significant further advances in diagnosis and treatment, with real public health benefits. I hope that our debate tonight will gently nudge the noble Lord in the direction of that tiller and lead to life-saving changes.
My Lords, I am delighted to support the noble Lord, Lord Black of Brentwood, in his campaign to get better recognition for the causes and treatment of atrial fibrillation. I am interested because I have spent a good part of my professional life as a psychiatrist working with elderly people suffering the emotional and neuropsychological aftermath of serious stroke. It makes me hopping mad to come across people who still have atrial fibrillation after they have been treated for their stroke and have then come on for further psychiatric treatment. It is a tragedy to recognise that they still have the atrial fibrillation that could be treated to prevent a further stroke I am now retired from clinical practice and I understand that things have improved. It is now much more likely that patients will arrive with appropriate treatment. I congratulate this Government, the previous coalition Government and the Government before that, on supporting the major stroke initiative that has led to much better targeted care of people with stroke, from access and recognition of stroke right through to focused centres and better outcomes in mortality and morbidity. We are making good progress, but there is still much more to be done Atrial fibrillation is extremely easy to diagnose, as the noble Lord, Lord Black, said. If you are treating a lot of elderly patients every day, it is very nice to sit down and gently feel their pulse, right at the beginning. This breaks the ice and is a very good way of making contact with an elderly patient you might not know very well. We are now getting to the point when we are joining the elderly generation. Some of us are already well into that period of life. The time has come when we are the patients who need to know about atrial fibrillation and know when we have an irregular pulse. We are the ones who need to understand. The population increasingly understands the causes of stroke and what to look for. We can teach people, with education and public information, how to feel their own pulse. Most people already know; it is so easy, so there is no problem there I agree that there is a problem with the drugs. I went to see an elderly friend of mine who was also a doctor in her time and is now 90. She has a touch of atrial fibrillation and she said, “I will take anything except that rat poison”. I told her that she was taking a bit of a risk but she said, “I have discussed it with my doctor, but my next-door neighbour has just died of a cerebral haemorrhage. Are you really going to subject me to that risk as well?”. There are now four new drugs on the market, some of which have been around for about two years, but the problem is that they do not diminish the risk of haemorrhage. We need to discuss the risk with individual patients, but patients are still having to think through whether or not they really want a drug when the side-effect risks are huge I have been speaking for four minutes, so I will shut up, but my final point is that we need to take heart from some of the newer treatments. Left atrial appendage ablation, which is available in the States now, and is coming here, is the way forward for the future.
My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my entry in the Register of Lords’ Interests. I also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Black of Brentwood, on securing this important debate. Approximately 900,000 people in England have been diagnosed with atrial fibrillation, or AF, and there are perhaps half a million people here with the condition who have not yet been diagnosed. The condition causes an irregular heartbeat and it is one of the most important risk factors for stroke, contributing to one in five strokes. If left untreated, AF increases the risk of stroke fivefold. AF-related strokes are often more severe, with higher mortality and greater disability arising from them than from other strokes. The Global Burden of Disease Study in 2013 suggested that atrial fibrillation and atrial flutter resulted in 112,000 deaths in 2013, compared to 29,000 in 1990. So it is a growing problem. Treatment with anticoagulants significantly reduces the risk of stroke in people with AF, but according to the Stroke Association, almost half of all the people in the UK with AF are not receiving the full anticoagulation treatment which significantly reduces the risk of stroke The issues for us to consider, and for the Minister to respond to, must therefore begin with the question of whether greater attempts at screening, which could enable early diagnosis, could be justified in terms of lives saved. Patients often do not feel any symptoms when their heart rate changes. There are many causes of this but not all of them are obvious. Can we simply rely on many people turning up at their doctors with other concerns leading to the identification of this condition? For those who are diagnosed, is enough being done to promote these anticoagulation treatments, including those most recently developed Surveys suggest that patient access to novel oral anticoagulants is lower than should be expected, highly variable across the country and much lower than in other European countries. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence produced an excellent atrial fibrillation quality standard in July, which was endorsed by the Department of Health. But there is real doubt over whether that standard is being properly applied uniformly and in a timely fashion. The evidence suggests not An NHS Improving Quality report estimates that just over half of people with AF are getting drug treatment in line with the recently updated best practice guidelines. A year ago, it produced a report which suggested that better care of people with AF could help prevent an additional 11,600 strokes and save the NHS as much as £124 million per year. It also suggested that full implementation of new best practice guidelines could prevent almost 28,000 strokes each year and lead to overall savings of £293 million for the NHS in England I hope the Minister will respond positively by telling us that there will be rapid progress towards full implementation of these best practice guidelines.
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Black of Brentwood, for this debate and for his ongoing questions to the Government on atrial fibrillation. Both my late husband and one of my best friends had irregular heartbeats. I used to check their pulses and told them that they must get checked out for atrial fibrillation, but their doctors did not take these abnormalities seriously. This is why I strongly support this debate on improving the diagnosis and management of AF I declare an interest as the vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Atrial Fibrillation. I am pleased to tell your Lordships that there is to be a meeting tomorrow in Portcullis House on transformation of AF services following NICE clinical guideline 180 and what it will mean for patients. It is good to have these specialising all-party groups to help to make Parliament aware of the many needs My husband had a stroke while watching a cricket match on TV and I knew exactly what was happening. Neglect in the local hospital, bleeds, clots and diabetes followed. It was a nightmare. If strokes can be avoided, that must be a priority. Prevention is much better than cure because so often there is not one. We need to prioritise prevention. Sadly, many people with AF are not diagnosed and many who have been diagnosed do not receive the anticoagulation treatment that they need. It has been estimated that as many as 700,000 people in the UK may be undiagnosed. Improving access to the full range of anticoagulation therapies would bring benefits to patients and the NHS For many years, I have felt that basic first aid should be taught in all schools to pupils above a certain age. Taking the pulse manually should be commonplace. I have been amazed that so many people cannot take their pulse. With so much talk about self-management and self-care, surely it is time to show everyone the way with basic training. Does the Minister think that all GPs have read the NICE guidelines on AF? If they have, why are they still prescribing aspirin I congratulate the Stroke Association on all that it is doing to help with AF. If all the estimated 1.4 million people with AF in England were detected and adequately treated, an estimated 16,000 strokes could be prevented every year. In addition to reducing mortality and severe disability, additional health and social care costs could be avoided. The NHS alone could save £130 million with appropriate detection and treatment of AF. I hope that the Minister will give us some encouragement. It is a very important issue.
My Lords, I suppose I should declare an interest. Some years ago I was told that I had mild atrial fibrillation—it might have been named intermittent. Now, it is clearly stated that I have permanent atrial fibrillation. I am aware of this diagnosis and the fact that it means my heart is less efficient. Noble Lords have heard everything from everyone else about that. I take Warfarin daily to keep my international normalised ratio within appropriate levels recommended by my cardiologist. It seems to be effective, but regular monitoring through blood tests is required to ensure that my INR remains as it should. The test is straightforward and involves a finger prick to obtain a blood sample, which is put into a reading system that provides the answer. The dosage of tablets is then increased or decreased to correct an unsuitable reading. It is the sort of test that people with diabetes—particularly type 2—need to carry out several times a day Yesterday, I discussed this with a distinguished Member of your Lordships’ House who has been in exactly this position—as a type 2 diabetic—for some years. He said he gets warnings: when he feels that he is getting muddled, that means that his blood sugar is low and it is time for another test. If he is feeling slothful and lethargic, his blood sugar is high. He has to do this test up to five times a day and carries out these procedures himself; he has no problems with this. Why is it that individuals requiring very similar blood tests for atrial fibrillation are not able to do their own tests in this same way Over the years, I have raised this question, especially with my noble friend Lord Howe. In his days as Health Minister, he told me that it would be logical for those who wished to self-test to do so. I was informed that this would help to reduce National Health Service workload, and sure enough, the INR clinics are always very busy and in demand in most of the major hospitals and in many general practices. The NHS supported self-help, according to my noble friend. In that case, why is there not more self-monitoring for atrial fibrillation? Is this still the case For some years, manufacturers of self-test appliances have provided demonstrations in the House of the simplicity and effectiveness of the process. There would be considerable savings for the NHS if patients bought their own machines—I believe that many would—and the NHS provided the small disposable items needed for the tests, such as finger-prickers and solutions. At present, different areas of the NHS provide others with different items. In some areas, the situation is very unsatisfactory for those who feel they should have access to these items. If there were just one system and all the patients therefore had the same choices, there would be a considerable saving Mention has been made of the drugs that could be taken instead of Warfarin. My cardiologist said, “Don’t do that”, because the good thing about Warfarin is that its effects are reversible if you suddenly find that your reading is much too high or too low. However, the effects of these new tablets—which have been referred to as NOACs—are not reversible. You have to wait until the body gets rid of them, so there is a time-lag and the situation could become quite dangerous In Australia, children born with heart conditions have such machines loaned to them, so that all the treatment can be administered at home. Again, that is very important. My noble friend Lord Black mentioned the difficulty a lot of people face in getting to a hospital. I hope the Minister will support the view that there should be access to self-monitoring.
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Black: he has done us all a service by bringing atrial fibrillation before us. It is not the first time it has been debated in the House, but it is very relevant. Like him, I suffer from the condition of paroxysmal atrial fibrillation. What he and many other people have said more or less follows what I have prepared; I agree with nearly everything that has been said so far. Atrial fibrillation is on the increase and is a really serious problem, in that it can cause a stroke It is also relevant that I am a former GP who has treated a number of people with atrial fibrillation, but that was some years ago and we did not have the tools and medications—the drugs—that we have now. Some of my information, therefore, has been gained through reading rather than practice. Atrial fibrillation increases with age, so it is not surprising that a number of your Lordships suffer from it. Some of us may not even be aware of it, as has been said, since it gives rise to quite mild symptoms and sometimes none. Sometimes it is continuous, but sometimes it is episodic or paroxysmal. Treatment consists of measures to detect and, as far as possible, correct any conditions that might underlie the atrial fibrillation—and there are quite a few—and then to restore normal rhythm, if possible, with drugs, electrical cardioversion, or surgical ablation, as has been mentioned. Most important is the prescription of suitable anticoagulants to minimise the formation in the left atrium of clots, which can be carried around the body, block an artery and deprive an area of the brain of its blood supply, leading to an ischaemic stroke. A stroke caused by atrial fibrillation is often more serious than one from other causes, so it is particularly important to detect it as soon as possible and start treatment with effective anticoagulation. Until recently, this was not emphasised adequately by clinicians and the standard drug used was inadequate—low-dose aspirin Trials have shown that more powerful anticoagulants have a measurably better effect than aspirin in reducing embolic stroke. The first of these, as has been said, is Warfarin—rat poison—which inhibits vitamin k action, an essential part of the clotting process. It is remarkably cheap, and its cost is amply repaid by the savings incurred by the National Health Service that it gives rise to through stopping atrial fibrillation-related stroke. I take warfarin, like the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner. My condition is under control, but having to be tested from time to time is a nuisance. I thoroughly agree with the suggestion that self-monitoring should be made available. The instruments cost about £200 The main trouble with warfarin is that it takes some time for its effects to cease, and it can cause internal bleeding. If such bleeding occurs and cannot be brought down quickly, that is a worry. Despite what the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, said, NOACs allow the clotting time to increase quite rapidly after stopping taking them, so they are safer than warfarin On detection, it is very important, as has been said, to find the cases that do not have much in the way of symptoms. I will say a few words on that. Sadly, detection has been woefully inadequate up to now. That may be simply because the doctor or nurse has failed to take the patient’s pulse.
Order.
Yes, I understand. I back the suggestion from the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, that people should always learn how to take their own pulse The other thing that I wanted to ask the noble Lord quickly—
I am sorry, but time is up.
May I ask him afterwards?
Yes.
My Lords, everything that could be said probably has been. I declare an interest as a member of both the AF APPG and the stroke APPG. We have meetings tomorrow, as we have heard. I also have personal experience of living with AF for many years Atrial fibrillation is the most common sustained cardiac arrhythmia and estimates suggest that its prevalence is increasing. If left untreated, atrial fibrillation is a significant risk factor for stroke and other morbidities. Men are more commonly affected than women and prevalence increases with age It has been suggested that AF can be detected by a simple pulse check. I have found that a pulse check should be verified with an oximeter. It is difficult to self-diagnose irregular cardiac rhythms that are often in excess of 150 beats per minute without the use of an oximeter. Perhaps that is what the GRASP machine is; I had not heard of it before. AF affects around 1 million people in the UK. Sometimes the condition does not cause any symptoms and a person with it may not be aware that their heart rate is irregular. It is important that AF is diagnosed so that medical practitioners can decide when active treatment is needed The aim of treatment is to prevent complications, particularly stroke, and to alleviate symptoms. Drug treatments include anticoagulants, to reduce the risk of stroke, and antiarrhythmics, to restore or maintain the normal heart rhythm or to slow the heart rate in people who remain in atrial fibrillation. Non-pharmacological management includes electrical cardioversion, which may be used to shock the heart back to its normal rhythm, and catheter or surgical ablation to create lesions to stop the normal electrical impulses that cause atrial fibrillation. I have had both of these techniques There are also new updated guidelines that address several clinical areas in which new evidence has become available, including stroke and bleeding risk stratification, the role of new antithrombotic agents, and ablation strategies. The recommendations apply to adults—those aged 18 years or older—with atrial fibrillation, including paroxysmal, persistent and permanent atrial fibrillation, and atrial flutter. They do not apply to people with congenital heart disease precipitating atrial fibrillation Sadly, many people with AF are not diagnosed and many who have been diagnosed do not receive the anticoagulation treatment that they need. Between April 2014 and March 2015 only 38% of patients with diagnosed AF who were admitted to hospital with a stroke were being treated with anticoagulants. It has been estimated that as many as 700,000 people in the UK may have undiagnosed AF In recent years several anticoagulants, known collectively as non-vitamin K antagonists, have been recommended by NICE. Under the NHS constitution, patients should have access to the full range of treatment options recommended by NICE. However, data from NHS England reveal that only 11% of patients being prescribed anticoagulation are receiving these treatments. Improving access to the full range of anticoagulation therapies would bring benefits to patients and the NHS. The Government have estimated that up to 7,100 AF-related strokes could be prevented annually if everyone with AF were appropriately managed Since 2012 four novel oral anticoagulants have been recommended by NICE as both clinically effective and cost-effective for the prevention of strokes in patients with AF. These treatments should now be available to all patients whose doctors wish to prescribe them. Their use is increasing, but it is lower than expected. All healthcare professionals caring for people on anticoagulation therapy should be familiar with the full range of treatment options. Despite having a NICE recommendation as being clinically effective and cost-effective, many GPs appear to lack confidence in the use of NOACs to prevent AF-related strokes.
My Lords, most of what needed to be said has been said. I echo everything that noble Lords have said about the initiative by the noble Lord, Lord Black, and I am very pleased that he called for this debate. Like other noble Lords, I have had AF for a very long time—20 years or more—and I have been taking warfarin every day, along with a low-dose aspirin, for 20 years. This medication was changed recently and I was rather nervous about it. The aspirin was replaced by clopidogrel. So far no adverse effects have been detected, but it is a bit of a big thing when you move from one medication to another I am pleased that in its guidance NICE says that there should be proper consultation between the patient and the cardiologist about any sort of medication. I wonder whether an organisation such as the British Heart Foundation could produce one of its short pamphlets explaining the action—the function—of these drugs in a fairly straightforward way. I hope that I am a person of at least moderate intelligence, but I did find parts of the NICE guidelines completely incomprehensible. It would be worth having a leaflet setting out the pros and cons of different kinds of therapy Given that a lot of people—most people, probably—will stay on warfarin for the foreseeable future, I am worried by its prescription into quite old age and the risk of falling. If you fall and your blood is very thin, the chances of having some kind of bad event are quite strong. I remember—as will many members of this House—our friend Donald Dewar, the former Secretary of State for Scotland, who fell over in a frosty street in Edinburgh and died as a result of a brain haemorrhage. He was on warfarin: it was a contributing factor. So it is important that we consider knocking off warfarin for elderly people and perhaps replacing it with some of these NOAC drugs, so long as they do not have the same sorts of risks. Perhaps they do There is another thing that happened to me recently that perhaps the Minister could think about, although not necessarily today. It is where you have atrial fibrillation and you have a stroke. I had a stroke in November 2014, which badly affected the sight in my right eye, and almost immediately after the stroke, which was caused by AF—they knew that because I was in hospital at the time and my heart was in atrial fibrillation when I had the stroke—I had a carotid artery endarterectomy. That was a slightly alarming operation, to put it mildly, but it seems to have helped things along. How routine is offering carotid artery surgery to otherwise fit patients who have had an AF-induced stroke? It would be useful to know whether it is pretty routine or an exceptional thing I have been fortunate since I have had all this trouble to have lived in Oxford, where there is an exceptional cardiology department, and now Southampton, where there is a regional centre for cardiology. I just wonder how far the ease with which my symptoms and the carotid artery operation were dealt with was due to the fact that Southampton is a regional centre, or whether you could get that kind of treatment in a much smaller hospital. It would be useful to have some indication of that. If the Minister could write about that, I would be very pleased.
My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Black, on securing this debate and pay tribute to his work highlighting the importance of early detection and effective management of AF. I also very much welcome the important walk-in clinic initiative he is promoting within Parliament, with AntiCoagulation Europe providing pulse checks to help prevent strokes and blood clots for people with AF, and hope that as many MPs, noble Lords and Parliamentary staff—if they are included—as possible will go along on 10 November I am also very grateful for today’s debate because it sets the scene for my own debate on 18 November on the updating of the now eight year-old national stroke strategy. The strategy runs out in April 2017 and today’s focus on AF underlines the priority it needs to have in the future strategy for preventing stroke and reducing the number of people who have strokes that could have been avoided As a vice-chair of the All-Party Group on Stroke, as well as being the carer of a disabled partner who had a major brain haemorrhage stroke in 2008, I am sure that noble Lords will understand why most of my remarks on AF will focus on stroke-related aspects. Better diagnosis and treatment through early detection and effective management of AF with an anticoagulant would result in the prevention of more than 4,500 strokes and 3,000 deaths across England each year. Untreated AF is a contributing factor in 20% of strokes in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and, as we have heard, more complex disability can result from AF-related strokes We have heard a number of figures about the scale of the problem. The Stroke Association’s figure, cited by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, is that an estimated 16,000 strokes could be prevented every year. The association hears many accounts from stroke recoverers about the devastating consequences of poor detection of AF, so it is worth putting on the record just two of those case histories David had a stroke at 62 which had a considerable impact on his life. He now has reduced mobility and this impacts on his job as an electrical engineer. David was not diagnosed with AF until after he had the stroke, and when discussing how to reduce the risk of having another stroke caused by AF, his GP seemed keen for him to take aspirin rather than an anticoagulant; that is, clot-reducing medication. However, David conducted his own research and then pressurised his GP into prescribing an anticoagulant drug Another stroke recoverer, Brenda, suffered a stroke thought to be caused by AF. She initially had a mini-stroke and was told by the hospital she was taken to that she had had an arrhythmia; there was no mention of AF. She went on to have a stroke 18 months later. Often AF is discovered only after patients are admitted to hospital with a stroke, and obviously by then it is too late. The Sentinel Stroke National Audit Programme found that only 28% of stroke patients known to have AF when admitted to hospital were on the anticoagulant medication they should have been on. The noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, gave this figure as 38%, I noticed Significant underdiagnosis and undertreatment remain, despite the incentives mentioned by noble Lords in the quality and outcomes framework, last year’s reissued NICE guidelines and the new quality standard on AF. It is imperative to address the low level of knowledge among GPs of the importance of early detection and the appropriate treatment of AF. The toolkit AF: How Can We Do Better?, developed by the Stroke Association for GPs and others in primary care, is one of a number of key actions that would lead to the increased awareness and understanding that are needed, particularly about the link between AF and stroke. Government support for NHS Improving Quality’s new GRASP-AF guidance on AF risk assessment and stroke prevention within GP practices would also make a significant difference How will the Government be supporting these initiatives? Does the Minister acknowledge that if swift and routine pulse checks were included as part of every GP visit, huge progress could be made and thousands of lives saved? Does he agree that the current low levels of awareness among health professionals are not conducive to developing better understanding among the public? Finally, I support the inclusion of indicators on detection and treatment of AF in the public health outcomes framework. Local health trusts need to be assessed on the efforts they are undertaking to prevent strokes and other major conditions that can arise from AF to ensure that vital opportunities to save lives are not missed.
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Black for initiating this debate. It has been very interesting for me. I did not know anything about atrial fibrillation until I researched it for this debate. What always strikes me is the extraordinary depth of the contributions noble Lords make to these debates I shall draw out four themes that we often come across in these debates before I respond in detail. The first is how expert patients or carers of patients have become and what a contribution they can make to helping NHS England and clinical commissioning groups in structuring the right kind of care pathways for these serious illnesses. The second point is the variation around the country, from GP to GP, from CCG to CCG and from one region to another, every time we debate almost any disease in this Chamber. The third point, which was made strongly by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, is the correlation always between quality and cost. We often think of them as separate and in opposition to each other, but good quality is usually also achieved at lower cost. The fourth point is the growing role of self-care. My noble friend Lady Gardner and others mentioned that as technology develops self-care will become an increasing part of how we deliver care. On education, the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, talked about basic first aid, such as learning to take your pulse at school. It is so obvious that you would not think it needed saying, but I have never done a first aid course and I am not proud of that fact I start with diagnosis of AF. Around 18% of cases of AF remain undetected. That means a lot more needs to be done. NHS England is encouraging clinical commissioning groups to work with local practices to target people at risk of AF. In addition, the NHS Health Check programme’s best practice guidance recommends that a pulse check is carried out as part of the process of taking a blood pressure reading. People found to have an irregular pulse rhythm should then be referred to their GP for further investigation. Other innovative approaches are being used to identify AF in older people, such as pulse testing at flu clinics and by some dentists There is also research under way. The National Institute for Health Research is funding a study into how a hand-held device can be used in primary care to provide an automatic diagnosis of atrial fibrillation. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence—NICE—published an updated guideline on AF in June 2014 which includes recommendations on diagnosis. I looked at the care guideline before I came here. I did not find it as complicated as the noble Lord opposite but no doubt it could be simplified My noble friend Lord Black stressed the importance of screening. I do not think I have a very good answer. I have a response here on screening but I am not sure it will satisfy him—it did not entirely satisfy me. There are calls for screening for AF, as we have heard today. Ministers are advised by the UK National Screening Committee. In 2014, it recommended that a systematic population screening programme for people aged 65 and over should not be offered. This is because, based on the evidence in the review, the committee was not convinced that such a programme would bring more good than harm to the population offered screening. This position will be reviewed in 2017-18, or earlier if new evidence emerges. I am very happy to meet the noble Lord, Lord Black—or any other noble Lord—and the people from Public Health England responsible for the decision if he would like to understand more fully the reasons why. I am not saying they are wrong—they may well be right—but I should like to understand in more detail the reasons they believe that screening is not appropriate. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, suggested a reason in her speech. Maybe we should depend more on people taking responsibility for themselves and less on a screening programme, although I am not sure whether that was the point she was making. In any event, it is an issue that I would like to explore further with the national screening programme people As for the treatment of atrial fibrillation, NHS England has identified the improved management of AF as a priority for reducing premature mortality. NICE’s updated guidance suggests the use of anticoagulants unless there is a reason not to do so. I know there are concerns—they have been mentioned this evening—that aspirin is still being prescribed instead of anticoagulants, but NICE makes absolutely clear that aspirin on its own should not be used for stroke prevention in people with AF. There is NICE technology appraisal guidance recommending the use of newer anticoagulants for some people, which a number of noble Lords have mentioned this evening. NICE also published a quality standard on AF in July 2015, which sets out what a high-quality AF service should look like and will help drive improvement locally. The QOF contains indicators for the management of AF which cover the use of anticoagulation therapy. That provides a further incentive for doctors to ensure that AF patients receive anticoagulation where appropriate to manage their stroke risk. These actions should help ensure that people receive the anticoagulation treatment that is right for them I know there are concerns that some people with AF are not able to access the newer anticoagulants that NICE has approved for certain patients. There is a legal requirement on commissioners to provide funding for treatments and drugs recommended in NICE technology appraisal guidance within three months of that guidance being published. This is enshrined in the NHS constitution. The need to reduce variation and to strengthen compliance with and the uptake of NICE technology appraisals was identified in Innovation Health and Wealth, published in December 2011. In response, NHS England and the Health and Social Care Information Centre have developed an innovation scorecard, published on a monthly basis, to enable commissioners to benchmark their own position and increase transparency to patients and the public. This will assist the NHS in the identification of variation and the adoption of treatments such as NOACs that are recommended in NICE technology appraisals Some progress is being made. The uptake of newer anticoagulants—the NOACs—across England in 2014-15 was more than double that in 2013-14. In 2013-14, the figure was 45,708 per 100,000 of the resident population; that had risen to 126,845 in 2014-15. In addition, NHS IQ is promoting the use of GRASP-AF within GP practices in England. This audit tool, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Black, and other noble Lords this evening, simplifies the process of identifying patients with AF who are not receiving the right management to help reduce their risk of stroke. NHS IQ continues to support the use and rollout of this audit tool. In answer to the noble Lord’s question, I understand that, to date, 2,938 GP practices across the country have used the tool and have voluntarily uploaded their data to the online database. The database now contains information on the management of more than 327,000 patients with AF. As to self-monitoring, when patients are taking warfarin, they need to have regular blood tests to monitor their internal normalisation ratio—their INR—which measures how fast blood clots. It is important that this remains in the correct range. Understandably, some patients find having to make regular trips for blood tests to monitor their INR disruptive. I am running out of time but it is worth just saying that NICE has recently recommended two point-of-care devices in diagnostics guidance for people taking long-term anticoagulation therapy who have AF or heart valve disease, if they prefer to use this type of monitoring To conclude, I hope that some of what I have said reassures noble Lords that we and the NHS take this illness extremely seriously. I am pleased that we are coming back to talk about stroke in more detail later in November and I reiterate my offer to have a meeting with the national screening people if noble Lords would like to find out more about their reasoning behind the decision not to screen for AF I am told I have three minutes; I thought I had to finish. I apologise. Having concluded, it is rather difficult to start again. At the beginning of the debate the noble Baroness opposite talked about stroke. I think we are coming back on 18 November to talk about stroke care in more detail. There have been enormous improvements over the past five years in the way that stroke has been treated in this country, in part because of the work done in London to concentrate stroke care in a smaller number of hyperacute hospitals where they can provide thrombolysis—clot-busting drugs—much more quickly. Certainly, in the hospital I was involved with in Norfolk we have seen a huge change in the quality of stroke care in the past three or four years. Before that, stroke had been a very poor relation compared to heart attacks or cancer, for example. In many parts of the country, if you had a stroke after 5 pm on a Friday your care was very poor. We are able now to provide stroke care on a much better basis It is hard to start again when you have finished, but my 12 minutes are up. The noble Lord, Lord Black, said that he is supervising a walk-in session on Tuesday for people who would like to have their pulse taken to see whether they suffer from AF. Sadly, I will not be able to make that walk-in session, but I encourage noble Lords to do so.
My Lords, this amendment moves back one stage, from talking about how to get people to vote, and how to get them to vote in different ways, to the question of registration, which is how to make sure that people are actually on the electoral register so that they have the opportunity to make a decision whether or not to vote The House got terribly excited about registration last week when we were talking about the statutory instrument, and a decision was made. As a result of that decision, the new system of individual registration will come in from December this year and something like 1.8 million names will be removed from that register. What nobody really knows, as far as I can see, is how many of those names are genuine voters who should be there and how many are not. However, it is very clear—from talking to some of these people locally and helping them to get registered—that many of the 1.8 million are people who should be on the register and, indeed, many of them are people who voted in the elections in May this year. I do not think anybody knows exactly how many of the 1.8 million voted this year. There is a problem and a challenge there now for everybody to try to make sure that as many of them as possible who are real voters get back on the electoral register In addition, according to the Electoral Commission, throughout the UK there are something like 8 million voters who ought to be registered but are not. Although some of them may be people who have no interest, do not want to be registered and never will be, whatever the law may say, quite a few of them are people who ought to be registered and, if they were, might take the opportunity to vote The purpose behind the amendment is to probe the Government and the Electoral Commission about what they are going to do and what they think should be done specifically to get people on to the electoral register for the referendum, when it comes. Of course, we also have elections in May next year, but this is specifically about the referendum In the amendment, I have highlighted two groups of people who are underregistered: young voters and eligible voters who live in the rest of the European Union—although many eligible voters who live abroad live in other parts of the world and would have the right to vote in the referendum if they were registered. They are eligible if they are UK citizens living abroad and have not lived abroad for more than 15 years—or whatever period we end up with in the Bill; at the moment, 15 years I had a very useful letter about the amendment from the Electoral Commission, which rightly points out that there are other underrepresented groups that it will wish to target. It points out that the two groups that I have mentioned are two among several more groups that it targeted before the general election with some success—different levels of success, I think. They include people who have moved house recently, people in private rented accommodation—in areas where private rented accommodation is pretty well at the bottom of the housing market, they are often the same people who are moving around all the time—and some BME groups, not all, but some, which are underrepresented I want particularly to focus on the question of people living within the European Union, because these are clearly British citizens who have a particular personal, direct interest in the outcome of the referendum, whatever they may think about it. According to the Electoral Commission, something like 100,000 overseas voters were registered at the general election. Whatever the total number of British citizens abroad eligible to vote in UK elections, 100,000 is a small proportion of them. It was higher than it has ever been before—three times as high as it was at the previous election, I think —but still very low It is said that there are 2 million or more United Kingdom citizens resident in the EU. I do not know how many of those are entitled to vote under the 15-year rule, and I do not know how many of them are adults—not children, who cannot vote—but it is clear that there is a large number of British citizens living in the EU who have a direct interest in the referendum who are not registered at the moment. I have seen estimates from other people suggesting that the figure of 2 million is on the low side, because it is based on people who are registered as living in other European countries, and there are lots of British citizens who do not register with the local authorities. Many of these people have dual addresses; they have an address in this country, and they spend part of the time in the rest of Europe. They ought to be registered here, where one of their homes is. So perhaps 2 million is the figure to consider Anecdotal evidence from people I have talked to in other EU countries—including people I talked to in the south of France when I was there fairly recently—is that if you live outside this country, registering to vote as a UK elector is not as easy as it ought to be. I have spoken to people who tried to vote at the general election but failed the double obstacle that they have to go through. The first obstacle is registering to vote and the second is applying for and receiving a postal vote—getting on the postal voters register The electoral registration can now be done online, and that applies wherever you live in the world—so that is okay. But what if the national insurance number that you have to give now in order to be put on the electoral register is not validated by the DWP? That happens with lots of people. I do not know why that is the case; I have not got to the bottom of it. However, there is no doubt at all that the validation has not worked for lots of people, which is one reason why there are many among the 1.8 million coming off the register who are genuine voters and genuine people. They have not been able to match up their national insurance numbers and not provided other means of identification to replace the NI number. Providing those other means of identification is more difficult and messy if you live abroad The anecdotal evidence is that, before the general election this year, local authorities were not always quick enough in processing and dealing with these applications. Secondly, the postal vote applications have to be in writing. There must be a piece of paper which is sent off, or it can be scanned and sent by email—and perhaps by fax as well. That is a more complicated process. I have talked to people who managed to get on the electoral register but did not manage to get through the hoops of getting a postal vote when they were up against the deadline shortly before the elections. There seem to be some bureaucratic obstacles in this situation which are causing more difficulties for people in Europe than for some of the people here Registration for people whose NI numbers do not match with the DWP and are not validated is sometimes a nightmare in terms of getting the appropriate documentation in. It is not easy—and I have been dealing with some specific cases back in Lancashire where I live. In addition to what the Electoral Commission tells me it will do—that is, conduct a similar campaign to the one it held to get people registered before the general election; it had something called a “boats and planes” campaign for people outside this country—it will have to make very special efforts indeed, together with the Government, starting as soon as possible, if people living in other European countries are not to be deprived of the vote in the referendum to which they are properly entitled. I beg to move.
My Lords, Amendment 48A, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, would require the Electoral Commission to inform unregistered eligible voters of the steps they need to take in order to vote in the referendum. The amendment requires the commission to do this as soon as the date of the referendum is announced, and to take particular steps, as the noble Lord says, to approach two groups of people. He acknowledged in moving his amendment that other groups also need to be alerted to their right to vote in the referendum. Of course, the Committee will understand that I am sympathetic to the noble Lord’s underlying aim, which is to ensure that people understand that they can vote and know how to register to do so. It is important in any democratic society that it is a duty of us all to be engaged in that, whether we are a voluntary worker in a political party, a paid politician, a member of the Electoral Commission or working in the community. It is part of what we should do to enable people to take part in the democratic process I can assure the noble Lord that provisions are in place to set in motion what he hopes to achieve. His amendment is unnecessary because the duties it imposes are already encompassed in paragraph 11(1) of Schedule 3, which requires the Electoral Commission to take, “whatever steps they think appropriate to promote public awareness about the referendum and how to vote in it” As the noble Lord said, he has heard from the Electoral Commission, and it is fully seized of its duty and the actions it should take I am sure we all agree that this is about all eligible voters, not just making specific groups aware of their right to vote—not just those British citizens living in the other 27 countries of the European Union, but those who live more widely abroad. The Electoral Commission has made it clear that it will take prompt action to alert people of their right to vote, and has made clear exactly what it plans to do. It plans to produce public information that explains the voting process, and to run a UK-wide campaign through TV, radio and digital advertising which highlights basic information about the referendum, such as the date and how to register to vote. This campaign will inform eligible voters in the United Kingdom of all ages of their right to vote, and additional steps will support this For example, the Cabinet Office continues to work closely with civil society organisations, including Bite The Ballot, to encourage underrepresented groups to register. The Electoral Commission is also working closely with officials in the Cabinet Office and my officials in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to ensure that eligible voters overseas are made aware of their voting rights and can vote with ease. This work includes ensuring that postal ballots sent overseas are correctly addressed and include the correct postage—details that have sometimes been overlooked. I appreciate the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. Alongside this, online registration is making registering to vote far more convenient, accessible and simple for young and overseas voters—far better than ever before. A person can register to vote on their smartphone, tablet or PC in as little as three minutes, as long as the link is working. The systems are there As the Bill already requires the Electoral Commission to take the action set out in the noble Lord’s amendment, and as clear progress is already being made in achieving its aims, I invite him to withdraw it.
My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for setting that all out. It is all absolutely true. She talks about the duty set out in the Bill, which is absolutely right, but the problem is carrying out that duty with regard to overseas electors. If only just over 100,000 were able to be on the register for the general election, clearly, the system up to now has not worked. My point is that, because of the very nature of this referendum, particularly as it impacts on British citizens in Europe—the Minister referred several times to people in the UK, but these people are not in the UK—more needs to be done than was done last time, and in different ways.
My Lords, I beg to move the amendment standing in my name and those of my noble friends. I think that the new clause tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, is superior to my version, so I will not go into detail on mine I have found it a bit of a long and tiring day, so I ask permission to conclude my remarks from a sedentary position An Evening Standard report in April 2012 had extracts from a leaked report carried out by the BBC when my noble friend Lord Grade was in charge. It admitted bias on a range of topics. In that report Andrew Marr is quoted as saying: “The BBC is not impartial or neutral. It’s a publicly funded, urban organisation with an abnormally large number of young people ... It has a liberal bias, not so much a party political bias. It is better expressed as a cultural liberal bias”. As Mr Rod Liddle, a former “Today” editor, repeatedly says in his splendid column in the Sunday Times, BBC staff do not set out to be biased and believe utterly that they are neutral and represent middle England. They take their guidance from the Guardian, which they think is an absolutely centrist paper, with the Times a bit to the right and the Telegraph off the right-wing scale. I believe that recently some senior BBC insiders, such as Robin Aitken and Peter Sissons, have also confirmed that there are still institutional prejudices prevalent in the BBC. Of course, when accused of bias, the BBC denies it; but I can recall at least two occasions in the last 10 years when the BBC has said, “Well, yes, we looked at our coverage of immigration issues in the past and it was a bit biased but it’s all okay now”. I think it also said, “We looked at our coverage of the welfare debate and yes, it was biased in the past but we are getting it right now”. So that is the standard defence: we were biased in the past but we are perfect now When an organisation called Minotaur Media Tracking measured the level and content of the BBC Radio 4 “Today” programme’s coverage of the European Union, it found that the BBC gave less coverage to EU issues than the newspapers, gave roughly twice as much coverage to pro-EU voices as anti-EU voices and consistently presented the Eurosceptic case as wanting to leave Europe instead of the European Union. I read somewhere recently, but I cannot find it now, that the BBC has concluded that its past coverage of EU issues was slightly biased, but it is going to be okay in the future. In that case, I look forward to interviewers referring to the BSE campaign as the “Britain Stronger in the European Union campaign”—but I do not hold my breath for that The EU’s transparency website shows that £20,152,000 was disbursed to the BBC from EU funds between 2007 and 2012. A lot of that went to so-called research and development projects and to creating programmes to bring about change in countries outside the EU. In 2009 alone, the BBC got almost £1 million to, “provide support for media capacity in the area of EU integration” Noble Lords may say that I am biased on this, but surely there is an element of conflict of interest somewhere which calls into question the ability of the BBC to police itself on EU matters when it is receiving funding from the EU My new clause suggests that broadcast coverage of this referendum is too important to be left to a combination of Ofcom and internal BBC policing. Everybody trusts the Electoral Commission for its impartiality. I suggest that for the duration of the referendum only, all media monitoring of TV and radio currently carried out by Ofcom and the BBC should be transferred to a unit under the control of the Electoral Commission. Noble Lords can read the subsections for themselves, and I will not bore the Committee by reading and explaining them. Indeed, I will go further: I know that this new clause is going nowhere, so I do not expect, and the whole Committee would not want, my noble friend to spend a long time demolishing the eight subsections and pointing out their inconsistency, inappropriateness, illegality and everything else that is wrong with them. My intention is to highlight to the Government that there is a track record in the BBC of bias on EU issues and it would be intolerable if it continued right up to referendum day. No one wants to interfere with the independence of the BBC, but I believe that we should interfere with the bias of the BBC, since I believe it exists. All I want to hear from the Minister—my noble friends may wish for other things—in her wind-up tonight is what the Government will do to ensure that the broadcast media are absolutely fair, impartial and unbiased in all their reports, news and programmes leading up to polling day. As soon as the exit poll is issued, I do not care what happens. I beg to move.
My Lords, my Amendment 61BA is similar to Amendment 60, to which I have also put my name and which has just been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. I suppose the inspiration for both these amendments— I confirm that my amendment is also a probing amendment—is that we do not entirely trust the broadcasting media to be impartial throughout the referendum campaign, so we feel that they need a little extra assistance in this regard in the shape of the temporary broadcasting adjudicator suggested by this amendment. The noble Lord’s amendment suggests a temporary broadcasting authority My experience of the BBC’s EU coverage goes back to 1999, since when I and others have been sponsoring independent analysis of that coverage, to which the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, was good enough to refer. I had a debate in your Lordships’ House on 11 March 2002 which revealed the early results of our initiative, and another on 7 May 2014. Both debates are relevant to these amendments and suggest the need for them. Both amendments require the impartiality of broadcasters in dealing with the conflicting claims made by each side of the argument. However, my Amendment 61BA goes further and requires the new adjudicator to judge whether the BBC has covered a sufficiently broad scope of subjects about our EU membership to allow the electorate to reach an informed opinion about their future. Broadcasting bias is not only bias about the subject in question; there is of course also bias by omission I have singled out the BBC because only the BBC, under its charter and guidelines, has the duty to educate and inform. That duty would still apply to areas which may not have been raised by either side of the referendum debate. Your Lordships may feel that every conceivable argument under the sun will be raised by one side or the other during the campaign, but I am not so sure For instance, I suppose it is possible that neither side will deal with the founding big idea behind the project of European integration, which was that European nations had caused so much bloodshed that they had to be gradually emasculated and put under a new form of technocratic government—hence the EU’s claim to have brought peace to Europe since 1945. Hence also the almost unbelievable powers of the European Commission at the expense of national Governments. I am not sure that either side will go sufficiently into all this, and so I feel it should be the duty of the BBC to do so if they do not. It can be difficult to know where you want to go if you do not know why and how you have got to where you are—the direction of travel. Even if the campaigns do touch on these areas, I fear they do not lend themselves to soundbites, and so they may be covered inadequately. If so, I suggest the BBC should examine them dispassionately and in some depth—and very interesting it would be, too In conclusion, I am happy to report that the BBC’s coverage of EU matters has improved recently. We have had John Gray delivering a learned critique of the euro on “A Point of View”. We have had an Icelandic politician assuring us that the UK would be welcome and better off in EFTA. We have had a Nissan executive explaining why his company would not necessarily relocate outside the UK if we left the EU. We have had Nigel Farage being interrupted only by rapid fire instead of his usual machine-gun treatment. Best of all, the wonderful Labour MP Kate Hoey has even been allowed to make some of the case, on the “Today” programme, for the UK to leave the EU These are all absolute firsts for the BBC. Nothing like them has ever happened before. I trust that they are the first signs that the BBC is at least going to try to be fair in the forthcoming campaign. But old habits die hard, and so I trust that it and the other broadcasters will welcome the additional encouragement proposed by these amendments.
My Lords, these amendments are totally without merit, but I just want to remark that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, has suggested that we need controls on the broadcast media. I assume he means we should be as tough on Sky as on the BBC, or perhaps he wishes to take on only the BBC under that heading. Perhaps we should take on all the media. We had a great debate about how much we need tougher press regulation. I am sure noble Lords would want to consider the biases of the Daily Mail and occasionally the Daily Telegraph, whose Brussels correspondent for many years was a joker called Boris Johnson, who used to make up the most wonderful stories, most of them entirely without basis, about what was wrong with the European Union. Is it perhaps that we are having an attack on just the BBC I have read in the Spectator and various other publications that, because the BBC has received a certain amount of money over the years, amounting to a maximum of 0.3% of BBC income for any given year—largely to fund the development of broadcasting in Serbia, Moldova and other eastern neighbourhood countries—it is unavoidably biased in favour of the European Union or perhaps has almost become a vassal of the European Union, which is the phrase used by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth The BBC does have a certain bias: it is a bias in favour of evidence—that may be the liberal bias, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. I know that evidence is sometimes a little difficult for some. The part of the “Today” programme that I find to be biased is its tendency to take the headlines in the Daily Mail as the basis for some of its stories. That is a bias with which I am rather unhappy. The BBC has had two reviews in the past 10 years on accusations of bias, the Wilson review in 2005 and the Prebble review in 2013, both of which were thorough and both of which said that the BBC did not display a deliberate bias. I have seen Nigel Farage on “Question Time” more times than I really wanted to in the last 18 months. They have given him a fair crack of the whip. I do not see that the BBC should be pushed further in one direction or another. We understand what is going on. While the right-wing press’s dominance in the print media, with the competitive broadcast media interest that the Daily Mail and the Murdoch press have—hence their constant attacks on the BBC—is acceptable, the BBC, because it is seen to be prepared to explain how globalised the world has become and how difficult it sometimes is to manage national economies without a degree of international co-operation, must necessarily be biased. As I have said, there have been BBC reports; they have both cleared the BBC of bias. The accusation that the BBC has been significantly funded by the European Commission and is thus dependent on it is not valid.
I was not suggesting that the BBC is so heavily funded that it is dependent on EU funding. The funding of £20 million over the past five years, running at around £3 million per annum, is not to be sneezed at. Floating voters, or the public, get 75% of their information from the broadcast media, not from the press. The press is largely irrelevant in influencing elections because it is read by people who are already committed. As far as press balance is concerned, the Mirror, the Guardian, the Independent and the Financial Times will be rabidly pro staying in Europe. That leaves the Times and the Sun sitting on the fence until Mr Murdoch does his opinion poll to decide who is going to win. The Telegraph will probably be against staying in and the Daily Mail probably will be as well. Finally, I respect the intellect of the noble Lord, but if he seriously thinks that the editors of the “Today” programme are spouting Daily Mail propaganda or taking that for their lead stories, he is living in another world.
My Lords, I merely observe as a frequent reader of the Daily Mail that the broadcast media, in particular the “Today” programme, take their cues from the stories that are in the morning press, particularly the Daily Mail, which, as we all know, is the most influential printed newspaper in this country and we all follow it I think I have said enough. I see no merit in this amendment. I know where it is coming from. I have read those who have suggested that the BBC is significantly dependent on the EU as a result of this—that is part of the paranoia of the Bruges Group right. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, used the expression “rabidly” for those who are pro-European and “moderate” for those who are not. Again, that is a perhaps a matter of unintentional bias on the part of the noble Lord, but I leave it there.
I applied “rabidly” to the Financial Times, which is more rabid than the Guardian in wanting to stay in Europe—and being wrong.
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, whether he has actually read either of the two debates I referred to, from 11 March 2002 and 7 May last year? Is he also aware that the Wilson report of 2005, which was inspired by our analysis, found that the BBC was biased, both in its coverage and in what did not cover? It did not think it was deliberately biased but it was, nevertheless, biased at that time. Has the noble Lord also read the Civitas report on the Prebble whitewash of the BBC’s EU coverage, which was so incestuous as to be dishonest Finally, has the noble Lord read—and, if not, will he do so—the News-watch website, which goes into great detail and irrefutable fact on all these matters, and which comes to the conclusion that the BBC has been biased in favour of the project of European integration? I hope he will appreciate that I end my remarks with the hope that some small shoots are growing that give us the possibility that the BBC will be fair during the forthcoming campaign. However, I feel it needs some encouragement, at the very least from the noble Baroness when she responds to these amendments.
I deeply regret that I have not read the noble Lord’s debate from 2002 and I shall, of course, try to dig it out before I go to bed.
I am fascinated by these two amendments and by the name of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, being on both of them. They seem to call for completely different courses of action. I am reminded of the story of a crash between two Concordes in mid-Atlantic, with Henry Kissinger being found in both. The noble Lord should make up his mind. Is he in favour of an impartiality authority and a criminal offence, as proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra? I am particularly against that one: the creation of a new criminal offence requires a fair amount of thought. Or does he prefer, as I do, his own amendment? Actually, I am not really in favour of either of them. This is all a bit over the top.
My Lords, these amendments are not so much probing as having a go. Their purpose is clear: this is a warning shot. I was stunned by the telling possibility that, instead of the campaigns themselves determining the issues, we should leave it to the BBC to decide which campaigns were admitted. In moving the amendment, the noble Lord once again rated the Electoral Commission highly. However, the commission has looked at the amendments and said they are unnecessary. Ofcom believes they are overkill and the BBC has also set out how it will develop its own specific guidelines. I have no doubt that the issue of bias will draw attention from both sides during the campaign. Listening to the “Today” programme may annoy me on some occasions and make the noble Lord just as annoyed on others, but we may have heard completely different arguments. It is in the nature of things that we do not approach these issues without bias ourselves. Clearly, we are all committed. The important thing is that provisions to ensure fair reporting of the campaign do exist. The BBC will also set up specific guidelines for the referendum and will constantly run impartiality reviews during the campaign so that it can ensure delivery against its editorial standards. That all happened during the Scottish referendum. These amendments are having a go rather than probing. I hope the Minister will support that view.
My Lords, Amendments 60 and 61BA deal with the crucial question of bias. Both noble Lords have made it clear that that is the basis of the views they put forward. How should one and how can one ensure fair and impartial broadcast media coverage? Noble Lords have approached the matter in slightly different ways. However, it is absolutely right that the public will expect and demand of its broadcasters that news and current affairs coverage of the EU referendum and of all other issues should be balanced and impartial, and must enhance the democratic process through informing the public. This will of course be pivotal to the public debate ahead of the referendum. Therefore, it is the right thing to demand Given the unique reach and impact that the broadcast media have on our lives, members of the public can and do complain that broadcasters sometimes miss the mark in terms of the impartiality of their coverage and the balance of their output. Certainly, from time to time, there have been errors of judgment. Considering the importance of the media to forming opinions, it is right that we should consider modes of redress where mistakes are adjudged to have been made. These issues are too important to leave such errors to hang unchallenged or uncorrected. However, I do not believe that these amendments are the right way to address the issue It is the Government’s position that the existing regulatory framework is robust and well understood, and that the establishment of a new authority in this specific circumstance would not be workable or proportionate. But I do appreciate that noble Lords were trying to draw attention to bias rather than creating new bureaucratic structures My noble friend’s Amendment 60 puts a duty on the Electoral Commission to take on the role of establishing a new authority. As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, has alluded to, the Electoral Commission does not currently have the power to set up such an authority; nor does it have any expertise in policing the impartiality of broadcasting. That expertise is in the BBC Trust and Ofcom. The Electoral Commission has made it clear that it would not welcome such a role even if it were possible to legislate for it Even so, both amendments contain important points which demand serious attention on the matter of bias. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport wrote to Ofcom and the BBC Trust on 15 June asking them to explain how, as the responsible regulators, they will look to deliver prompt, proportionate redress where lapses in editorial judgment are adjudged to have been made. Ensuring that redress is made, and made promptly, is, I think, the overriding intent behind the new clauses Both the BBC Trust and Ofcom have responded, underlining the strict enforcement of the rules on impartiality and the additional steps that the BBC and Ofcom take to expedite the handling of serious complaints during an election or referendum period. Ofcom also confirmed that it will be reminding broadcasters of their responsibilities ahead of the referendum. If it would be helpful to noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, I would be happy to supply them with copies of those letters Issues, both recent and historic, have been raised over the impartiality of our broadcasters’ coverage of important issues and events. The review of the BBC’s coverage in 2005 by the noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Dinton, highlighted several issues; for example, that the BBC’s coverage needed to be more demonstrably impartial and that while there may have been no deliberate bias in BBC coverage of EU matters, there were perceptions that the BBC suffered from certain forms of cultural and unintentional bias Although the BBC implemented several changes following the noble Lord’s report, more recent complaints about the media’s coverage of the election and the Scottish independence referendum, and accusations of bias, have come to light. The speed at which today’s news media move and the potential for content that is not duly impartial to gain, by the very speed of it, an unwelcome, detrimental foothold in the minds of the public, means that we should all recognise the need for prompt, effective redress where mistakes are made It is vital to the high regard in which the UK’s broadcasters are held that their independence, impartiality and even-handedness are beyond question. In a world of increasing dominance of state broadcasters in other nations, where blatantly partial voices are gaining increased power and reach, it is critical that the integrity and impartiality of our broadcasters in the UK cannot be called into doubt or undermined. The quality and independence of our news coverage in the UK is a calling card for democracy, and carries huge weight in terms of our soft power abroad. We have debated that in relation to Foreign and Commonwealth Office policy issues over the past year.
My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for that incredibly robust response: it is a tougher response than I anticipated when I tabled my amendment. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that I was not “having a go” or probing: it was more a shot across the bow, or rather flagging up a very important issue, because we cannot have biased reporting in this campaign from any broadcasting media outlet.
If this is to be brought back at Report, can we be assured that Sky and other broadcast media will be included in the coverage?
I do not intend to bring it back on Report, now that I have heard my noble friend’s response —but if I do bring it back on Report, it would be a very detailed clause that is much more accurate than the one we are discussing at the moment I was going to say that I had no idea that my right honourable friend John Whittingdale had actually written to the BBC, the other broadcast media and Ofcom, and I had no idea about the reply. That might explain why the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, says that he has identified—as I have as well—that the BBC has been more neutral on EU issues over the last few months. That is all that we wanted to achieve: we want that neutrality This very important little debate has taken only 30 minutes, and it is on the basis of two new clauses that were shot full of holes to begin with, but we have got some very important answers. As a little aside, I see my noble friend Lord Tebbit in his place; he has, in the past, as Conservative Party chairman, complained about BBC bias. Perhaps if he had bunged them £3 million a year from the Conservative Party, he might have got more favourable coverage. I am very grateful to my noble friend for her response tonight; I look forward to reading the letters and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
My Lords, in the unavoidable absence of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, it falls on me to move Amendment 61, which, fortuitously, has my name attached to it. The amendment does what it says: it provides for the result of the referendum to be declared for each of the four constituent nations of these islands. It may well be that this amendment is not necessary to ensure that the people of each of the four nations know the referendum vote in each of their respective territories, but it puts the matter beyond doubt. It recognises the right of each nation to know how it has voted, and for the world to know that as well That brings me to the linked amendment in this group, as we come to the end of our Committee Stage debate. Amendment 61C, standing in my name, relates to one aspect on which we have only just touched, and perhaps have deliberately skirted around because of its far-reaching implications. That is the consequence if there were a split vote across the countries of Britain, with one or more of the constituent nations of the UK voting in a different direction from the UK as a whole. The main focus of attention in this context has been Scotland voting to stay in the EU and the UK voting to leave. However, the arithmetic could equally apply to Wales or—perhaps in a different way—to Northern Ireland. I accept, for better or worse, the constitutional reality that the context of this referendum is the United Kingdom as a whole, for the simple reason that the UK is the member state of the EU which is contemplating leaving the Union. Therefore, it is a decision that has in the first place to be taken by the UK as a whole. If the UK as a whole votes to stay in the EU, even if one constituent nation voted to pull out, it would be extremely difficult for that nation to do so without erecting border controls between itself and the rest of the UK, and between itself and the rest of the European Union. I have not heard that option being seriously argued. If noble Lords feel to the contrary, they are clearly at liberty to put forward their own amendments to deal with that somewhat remote possibility However, we are all aware of the very real prospect that Scotland could vote to stay in the European Union and the UK could vote to leave, and that that could reopen the debate about rerunning the independence referendum in Scotland, with the real possibility that this time—for a variety of reasons, of which the EU dimension is just one—Scotland could vote for independence. If it did so, the Scottish Government might well aim, over the same period of time it might take for the UK to negotiate our departure from the EU—heaven forbid—to negotiate their own continuing membership. That road would clearly have its challenges. I do not intend to go down the highways and byways of that possibility at this late stage of the evening Incidentally, this is not a question that immediately arises in Wales because at present there is nothing like the same level of support for independence in Wales as there is in Scotland. At present in Wales, there is a widespread desire to secure greater autonomy, some of which is being addressed by the draft Wales Bill, which was recently published. There is certainly a feeling in Wales, and further afield, that the countries of the UK need a new relationship—a balanced partnership, if I can call it that, between the nations of these islands—but that does not manifest itself in the type of momentum towards independence we have seen in Scotland. However, the principle is equally valid in Wales, as it would be in Northern Ireland—or, indeed, in England. If England voted by a very small margin to stay in the EU, and the overall UK result was in favour of pulling out because of the votes of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, I believe that the same question would and should arise in an English context That brings us to the heart of the issue: what is to be the future relationship of the four nations of these islands? On 8 September, former Prime Minister Gordon Brown gave evidence to the panel chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, inquiring into better devolution for the whole of the UK. It was set up by the All-Party Group on Reform, Decentralisation and Devolution, co-chaired by the noble Lords, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Purvis of Tweed. Gordon Brown and I have not often seen eye to eye. I would never imagine myself turning to him for words relevant to my argument in the context that we are debating tonight. However, in his opening remarks before answering questions, he made a statement of immense significance. I quote directly from a transcript that has been cleared by his office: “The UK is a voluntary association of nations and I would stress that if the UK is to exist in the future, then it has to do so for a clear and stated purpose” Those were his words in a Committee Room upstairs here I add that one such valid purpose is to work together within the EU. It is an immensely important vision and one on which the future relationships of our four nations should be built, for I believe that there is not a person in this House who does not realise that there must be an evolving relationship if the United Kingdom is to survive as a meaningful constitutional unit. If we are to consider ourselves a family of nations, that has implications for the responsibilities we have, one towards another. All happy, functional families intuitively realise that this is the case. There is give and take. It is not a matter of father laying down the law and everyone else doing what they are told There was a good example in our extended family a short while ago. The father wanted to move house. He had seen a property that appealed considerably to him some 15 miles away. His wife was willing to go along with the move, although undoubtedly it would cause her much additional work. However, the two children, who attended primary school in their home village, were horrified. They would have to move school, leave their friends and lose the out-of-school activities that were a key part of their lives. They were beside themselves with grief. The father realised the pain he would be inflicting on them if he imposed his will, as he had the authority to do. He wisely decided to forget his plans, in the interests of the happiness and cohesion of the family as a whole. That is the situation we potentially face in this referendum. If we are indeed a family of nations, we should behave as a family. This is the time to face such questions, not in the acrimonious aftermath of a knife-edge referendum result Amendment 61C provides for a quadruple lock that defines the basis on which the outcome of the referendum can be perceived as a vote to quit the EU. It would require a vote to do so not only by way of the aggregate outcome of all the votes cast in the United Kingdom, but also within each of the four nations which make up the United Kingdom. It provides that all four members of this family of nations should concur on such a far-reaching move. I am putting this forward to give the Government an opportunity to tell the House how they would handle the situation in which, for argument’s sake, Scotland had voted to stay within the EU while the total aggregate vote in the UK was in favour of leaving. With respect, it would not be good enough to say, “Well, we will cross that bridge when we come to it”, because by then it may be too late. Events will have gathered their own momentum. We would inevitably be facing another Scottish independence referendum. Is that what the Government, and this Chamber, really want There may be other formulations of words that would better achieve my objective in proposing this amendment. If so, let us have an improved wording from the Government at Report. All I say, in conclusion, is that if we are indeed living in a family of nations which is a voluntary association, this issue has to be addressed, and I hope the House can agree with that sentiment. I beg to move.
My Lords, as the noble Lord is perfectly entitled to move his amendment, and although this late hour is probably not the moment to discuss some of these matters, I am just amazed that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle—I apologise as I am criticising him while he is not in his place—has put his name to at least part of this debate in support of having separate results announced in separate parts of the United Kingdom. We had a referendum in Scotland which we were assured by the nationalists would decide the matter for a generation. The Scottish people decided to remain part of the United Kingdom and within days the nationalists broke their word. Now we have the leader of the nationalists in Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, talking about another referendum being inevitable The polls still show that a majority of people in Scotland wish to remain part of the United Kingdom. The issue is for the United Kingdom to decide. It is the United Kingdom that is a member of the European Union. I am appalled at the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and at the Opposition—I hope that the opposition Front Bench will distance themselves from this argument—for embarking on this nationalist language. It is what has destroyed the Labour Party in Scotland. They have talked about the Tories throughout the 1980s as not having a mandate in Scotland. They used the rhetoric of nationalism and they have been surprised to find that they themselves, as unionists, have been destroyed by it. Here we go again, arguing that this is somehow a decision that Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England should have representations on and that there should—as this amendment suggests—have to be a consensus between the four parts of the United Kingdom. It is a nationalist, or regionalist, argument, and should be no part of the consideration of these matters I understand why the nationalists in Scotland—and in Wales, it would seem—are scratching around for a reason to justify breaking their word. The Labour Party’s argument has been that we need to have a referendum quickly because of the uncertainty. The damage that is being done to jobs and investment in Scotland because of the uncertainty about the future of Scotland created by this irresponsible nationalist rhetoric, is immense. We took a decision in the referendum and I very much hope that when we have this referendum, whichever way it goes, that is the end of the matter and it is decided and we can get on with the business of creating wealth and jobs in our country. The exploitation of this referendum by the nationalists as a way of trying to create division and dissent in our country is reprehensible I know that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, is a decent and honourable man but he should go to Scotland and look at the division that has been created there by the intimidation that the nationalists were responsible for in the campaign, and the need for healing. The very last thing we need is a further attempt to create divisions between the peoples of this United Kingdom.
As so often, I wish that we had a Scottish nationalist in this Chamber to respond to the noble Lord’s points, with most of which I agree. I bow to no one in my respect for the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. His was a very moving speech and I agree with his description of the difficulties that could arise were different results to occur in the different parts of the kingdom. I think he is correct about that. I think his solution is absolutely wrong. I cannot support his amendment The amendment in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Liddle, is probably unnecessary because I suspect that the votes will be counted separately in any case; I would hope so because there will certainly be rumours about what the result has been if it is close and it would be far better that there should be something on the record. With respect to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, it is a little harsh to accuse the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, of being a violent Scottish nationalist because he has put his name to that amendment There is a fundamental issue with Amendment 61C. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, proposes a quadruple lock in the situation in which, say, England has voted to leave the European Union and Northern Ireland has, by a very narrow majority, voted to stay in. If the noble Lord’s amendment was carried and became the law, we would stay in. That seems an unacceptable situation. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth: it is a United Kingdom decision It is important to note that we have no threshold requirements in this referendum and we have had no amendment in Committee proposing that there should be a threshold. That is constitutionally quite surprising for a decision as big as this. The precedent would lead one to think about a threshold. I would not have wanted a threshold. I would not have wanted a supermajority, as in the precedent in Scotland in the 1970s. I do not like referenda but the essence of a referendum is that you win or lose. It is clean; it is 51% to 49%, for example. If 51% are in favour of our leaving the European Union, we will leave, and we should not create any fudge round that. This is a yes/no decision, and if you decide to go, you go. The double referenda theory attributed to Boris Johnson, which he appears to have come off—that if the decision was to go, there would be another negotiation in which the foreigners, astonished and timorous, would come creeping, offering us far better terms to stay in—is nonsense. If the country votes to leave the Government will be required to invoke Article 50 and start the process of coming out. It has to be clean. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, that I think he is correct in his description of the difficulties that would arise, but the difficulties which would arise if his amendment were the law of the land would be much greater.
The noble Lord said that if the country voted to leave the Government would invoke Article 50, but surely that does not follow. It would be possible for us to remain in negotiations having voted to leave and then subsequently invoke Article 50, would it not? He is the expert.
I do not know what form these negotiations would take. I think that the position of a Government who said, “Okay, we have heard the nation speak, but now we are going to go and negotiate something else with Brussels. We are not acting on the decision the country has taken”—
My point is that if you invoke Article 50 you are then no longer a member and it does not necessarily follow that that would be the most appropriate way of dealing with it. You could remain as a member and negotiate our withdrawal and then use Article 50.
Actually, you are a member while the Article 50 negotiations are proceeding. You are a member of every council. Your MEPs do not leave the European Parliament, your judges do not leave the court and your Commissioners do not go home. The only difference is that in the Article 50 negotiations you do not have a vote on the position of the EU—the position that it has in its negotiation with you. That is all. You remain a member throughout the period of the Article 50 negotiations unless you decide unilaterally to go home. You do not have to do Article 50 at all. If you want you can just stop paying the bills, stop turning up at meeting and in due course it will be recognised that you have gone. It is not the case that once you invoke Article 50 you are no longer a member of the European Union.
Surely the key to the decision taken in the referendum is that it is advisory and not mandatory, so therefore it would not be necessary at once for the United Kingdom to apply for Article 50. We could merely carry on with the negotiations with absolutely nothing changing whatever.
Technically, that is correct. It is advisory. But it seems to me that anybody who thinks that the Government could do other than act fairly quickly on the advice they had received from the entire country is in cloud-cuckoo-land. The noble Lords, Lord Forsyth and Lord Hamilton, are right in a sense in that our influence in the councils of the European Union would go into very rapid decline. We would still be there but we would not be listened to a great deal if we were heading for the exit door. That is certainly true. However, we would be members, and the idea—with all respect to the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton—that the Government might consider whether they were going to act on the advice of the country or going to try some form of new negotiation is nonsense. If the country votes to come out, we come out.
My Lords, it seems to me that this is a piece of nonsense. Wales is not a member of the European Union, nor is England, Scotland or Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom is the member of the European Union. Therefore, it does not matter a damn whether some region or another—whether it is Wales, London, Ponders End or wherever—votes one way or another. The only thing that matters is which way the United Kingdom votes I do not intend to be provocative at this time of night—good lord, I never intend to be provocative—but it is worth remembering that there is considerable doubt over whether, if Scotland had voted to leave the United Kingdom, either it or the remainder of the United Kingdom would have continued to be a member of the European Union. The state which entered the European Union was the United Kingdom; if the United Kingdom had ceased to exist, then probably neither Scotland nor the remainder of the United Kingdom would have been a member of the European Union. It would have been up to the Scottish— and possibly the Welsh at some time or another—to negotiate entry into the European Union. We could all have a bit of a chuckle about how that would have gone, but essentially this is just a piece of nonsense which is not even worth discussing at this time of the evening.
My Lords, I do not want to detain the Committee for long. I am aware that the last two evenings I have said I would be brief but then was not; this evening, I really do want to be brief. As for Amendment 61, as the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, has said, the assumption is that we will hear the results by region and possibly by constituency. Therefore, including in the Bill the idea of counting by nation, rather than state or region, is unnecessary—although we will all be delighted to know what the result is in Gibraltar, given that we have spent so much time talking about it. So many of the amendments and briefings seem to talk about Gibraltar Amendment 61C is the more substantive. Although it is clearly important that we listen to the views of all four nations—I suspect the Cornish, if they were standing here, would be saying that they wanted to be heard too—and that all parts of the United Kingdom are heard, in practice, as we have heard from most parts of the Chamber, if not from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, this is a vote by the United Kingdom. Amendment 61C seems, in that sense, inappropriate.
My Lords, I begin by saying just how much I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit. The question is about the United Kingdom’s membership—there is no other question being asked and therefore the answer will be that we remain or that we leave. There is no doubt about that, but I will pick up just one point No matter how tempting it would be for me to enter into a long discussion about the history and politics of Scotland, I will resist that. However, I think the first amendment, tabled by my noble friend Lord Liddle, is unnecessary. I cannot be certain about the exact process, but what we all want is a very clear, transparent declaration of a result. I can assure all noble Lords that nobody would be satisfied with a computer output saying, “In the United Kingdom, X million voted this way”. We must have transparency: every voting area must declare and we must be able to see how that result is made up. That is how we have always done things and I cannot see any reason for changing that. I therefore think my noble friend Lord Liddle’s amendment is a bit unnecessary. However, this still does not avoid the point that whatever the result, it must be the result for the United Kingdom. One possible scenario is that England will vote, potentially by a small minority, to leave, while the rest of the United Kingdom will vote by large majorities to stay. That could happen, but it would not change the result. The result would be very clear: if we vote that way, even by a majority of one, we leave the European Union.
At this time of night, it is tempting simply to say, “I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury”, and thereby with my noble friends Lord Tebbit and Lord Forsyth, but I have a duty to put on record the reasons why the amendments are not welcome Amendment 61, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, seeks to ensure that votes cast in the referendum are counted and declared separately for Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England. I can give an assurance that, under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 and the Bill, that is already the case. Counting officers will declare separate results for Northern Ireland and Gibraltar. Regional counting officers will declare separate results for Scotland and Wales. In addition, the chief counting officer will declare results for the combined UK and Gibraltar, which will then be the overall result of the referendum It may assist the Committee if I set out briefly how the 2000 Act already achieves this, just to put to bed—so to speak, at this time of night—any remaining questions. The Bill provides for the UK and Gibraltar to be divided into different voting areas and for groups of voting areas in Great Britain to be treated as different electoral regions. The referendum will be administered on the ground by counting officers, one for each voting area. In England, Scotland and Wales, these will be the returning officers who act at local elections and the voting areas will mirror local authority areas. Northern Ireland will form a separate voting area and its counting officer will be the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland. Gibraltar will also form a separate voting area and its counting officer will be the Clerk to the Gibraltar Parliament. The chief counting officer may also appoint a regional counting officer for each electoral region in Great Britain. The electoral regions mirror those for the European parliamentary elections. Scotland and Wales will each form an electoral region; separately, clearly. England will be divided up—I prefer that to “broken up”—into nine regions. Regional counting officers will co-ordinate the actions of counting officers and deliver the referendum in their region. Under the 2000 Act and the Bill, each counting officer must count the votes cast and make a declaration as to the votes cast in his or her voting area. Each regional counting officer must do the same in his or her region and the chief counting officer must make a declaration of the votes cast across the whole of the UK and Gibraltar.
Does that mean that we will not have individual declarations in each district council area but that they will be aggregated and we will hear a declaration from a European region? I presume that we will still get access the next day to the figures for each district council.
The short answer is pretty much yes—there will be local reflection of that. The effect of the provisions is that there are separate results declared for the regions that are the subject of this amendment; Scotland and Wales separately, because they are electoral regions and that is their process; Northern Ireland and Gibraltar, each of which is called a voting area, separately; and further declarations will be made by the regional counting officers in each of the regions of England. It will be possible to add together all the published information to produce the result for England as a whole. So we get there in the end Amendment 61C, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, seeks to impose a so-called double majority lock. Under this amendment, the chief counting officer could declare that a majority had voted in favour of the UK leaving the EU only if there is a majority for that result in each of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. I have made it clear that I agree entirely with my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Tebbit and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that that is not at all appropriate. It is a decision for the whole country. The people of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar will have a vote, and each vote will and should count equally. That is the only fair way to take a decision of this magnitude. We are one United Kingdom. The referendum will be on the United Kingdom’s membership of the EU and it is right, therefore, that there will be one referendum and one result. I invite the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, to withdraw Amendment 61.
My Lords, I am very grateful for the response and for the interest that this debate has generated among a number of noble Lords. I cannot say that I am entirely surprised at the tenor of the debate or the comments that have been made, but before withdrawing the amendment, I will say just two things. First, I passionately want all four nations of the United Kingdom to stay part of the European Union because I believe that both our local family of nations and the greater family of nations are apposite for such a relationship I also ask noble Lords to think, between now and Report and as this campaign goes on, what will be the consequences were that to happen. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said that he very much wanted to see the end of debating an independence referendum again. I am sure that he would accept that there is a greater danger of that referendum coming closer if those two results are different and the consequences of the referendum are taken for the UK as a whole If that is not the case, it flies in the face of what has been happening in Scottish politics—the fact that 56 out of 59 Members of Parliament are SNP. That surely has a message, and we should be thinking about how we respond to it. I am trying to put forward ideas and grasping at some ideas that Gordon Brown is putting forward about a new association of family members within these islands. We have a commonality of interests in many ways, and we have our distinctive differences as well. There is a need to build on that basis for the future, and the European referendum is one of those contexts.
The noble Lord is right: 56 out of 59 of the MPs were elected as Scottish nationalists. They stood in the general election on a platform that the referendum had decided the matter and that the election was not about the issue of independence. During the referendum campaign, their party gave an assurance that this was a once-in-a-generation decision. So it is quite wrong to suggest that that result in any way vindicates the idea that you can rerun the referendum if something else happens which you may or may not agree with.
I understand entirely what the noble Lord is saying; all I am saying is that if the outcome was as I postulated, and as he accepts is a possibility—not a probability, but a possibility—there are consequences which, unless we think our way through them ahead of the referendum, will come back to haunt us. I put the amendment forward in a constructive spirit, not to try to pull things to bits. I am sure that the words of the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, will be heard loud and clear in Scotland. I am not trying to pull things to bits; I am trying to feel a way forward so that we can work together. Even if this is not the formula, there needs to be some formula On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.