Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 59]
1-59and we sat and stood around that radio and I believe it was in Pat Johnson's office -- her name was something else in those days. I can't remember her married name.And they said something about the police said it was Lee Harvey Oswald, or something. I do not remember. That was the first time that it came to my attention.Mr. Goldsmith. I would like you now to take a look at CIA No. 13 which is a transcript of the conversation allegedly involving Oswald, a conversation taking place on 1 October '63. Would you please read through that?(Pause)When was the first time that you saw that transcript, if you have ever seen it before?Mr. Shaw. I do not know whether I have ever seen it or not, but I may well have. I was aware that he had called the Soviet Embassy, was made aware after the notoriety of the man was established, but I do not recall ever seeing this before that.Normally, I would not.Mr. Goldsmith. Prior to the assassination, did you see it?Mr. Shaw. No. If I did, I did not pay any attention. I do not believe that it was on a Cuban line.Mr. Goldsmith. No, it was not.Mr. Shaw. Sometimes you can tell who saw these things by
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 60]
the initials up top.Mr. Goldsmith. There are no writings or notations on that one, however.Would you please read CIA 177, which is a cable from Mexico City station dated October 8th?(Pause)Mr. Shaw. Yes, this is typical where they try to identify somebody that was in the Embassy at the same time. Of course, that does not sound like it.Mr. Goldsmith. This was the famous cable that has given rise to some of the issues that the Committee was concerned with. My first question is, did you have anything to do with the writing of this cable?Mr. Shaw. No, I did not. I would not have had.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know how the photograph referred to in paragraph number two of that cable was in some way linked to Oswald?Mr. Shaw. I would assume, my answer to your question is no. I would assume that this was an effort on the part of the person drafting the cable to help Headquarters identify Lee Oswald, the man who had made the call.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know how she made that conclusion that the photograph reflected Oswald?Mr. Shaw. No. I do not think she did. I think she merely says that we got a guy who looks like he might be an
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 61]
1-61American going in, and maybe this is the fellow. I do notsee from this cable any conclusion that that is Oswald. Irather suspect they never got a picture of Oswald. This isthe one that appeared there, that looked like it could bean American. Therefore, an effort was made to help Headquartersby saying a man who looked like he might be an AmericanMr. Goldsmith. I agree with you, Mr. Shaw. Certainly,the cable does not say that the photograph is a photograph ofOswald. At the same time, though, it gives the informationin paragraph 1 on Oswald and the second paragraph makes reference to a photograph taken of someone who appears to beNorth American.Certainly they would not have sent to Headquarters simplya cable indicating the existence of a photograph, so by puttingthe photograph in paragraph 2 immediately below the informationon Oswald, although the cable does not say that the photographis one of Oswald, it does in some way suggest that they arerelated.Mr. Shaw. It suggests to me that they know an Americanwho claimed to be Lee Oswald called at a certain time, andthen they went to the photographs to see if they could findanybody who looked like he might be an American, and thephoto they found was of a man apparently 35, athletic build,about 6 feet tall, receding hair line and so forth; and they
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 62]
# SECRET1-62submitted this on the off-chance that this might have been theman who made the call.Mr. Goldsmith. I understand your answer. I am hopefulthat you understand that I am not suggesting that the cabledefinitely says the photograph is one of Oswald.Mr. Shaw. No, I do not see that it does at all.Mr. Goldsmith. Would you please take a look, now, atCIA 183?(Pause)Mr. Shaw. All right, I have read it.Mr. Goldsmith. This is a cable, is it not, from CIAHeadquarters back to the Mexico City station responding to theearlier cable from the station reporting Oswald's contact?Mr. Shaw. That is what it looks like to me.Mr. Goldsmith. The fifth paragraph of that cable requeststhat the station keep Headquarters advised of any furthercontacts or positive identification of Oswald?Mr. Shaw. Yes.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the station ever sentany additional information to Headquarters concerning Oswald?Mr. Shaw. No, I do not, and I do not recall ever seeingthis cable, either.Mr. Goldsmith. Today is possibly the first time that youhave seen that cable?Mr. Shaw. It could well be, yes. You may have one with# SECRET
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 63]
# SECRET1-63my initials on it, but I doubt it.Mr. Goldsmith. Looking at CIA 183, there is an arrow pointed to the word "Henry", "Lee Henry Oswald." Adjacent to the arrow it says "sic," s-i-c.What do you think Mr. Scott was intending to indicate when he wrote "sic" next to the "Henry" in "Lee Henry Oswald"?Mr. Shaw. I would rather suspect that he wrote this on here subsequent to the assassination when the word came out it was "Harvey Oswald" rather than "Henry Oswald" unless there is something in here that says "Harvey." Is there any?Mr. Goldsmith. No, there is none.Mr. Shaw. I would imagine that is something he wrote on later so that they would get the file in the right name.That would be my guess.Mr. Goldsmith. Would you now take a look at CIA No. 14. You may also want to take a look at CIAANO. 15 at the same time.(Pause)Would you identify the document that you just reviewed?Mr. Shaw. What it looks like is a normal LIENVOY transcription. I see my name up here, but I don't see anything that indicates that I ever saw it. It looks like Scott and Goodpasture made checks on it. There is my name, but there is no indication, no initial on my part. Probably I did not see it.# SECRET
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 64]
## 1-64Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date of that transcript?Mr. Shaw. 28 September 1963 is what is listed on here.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall whether you ever saw that transcript before?Mr. Shaw. I do not recall. I must have seen it afterwards, because I know Sylvia Duran was a person who had dealt with Oswald.Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time that this transcript was linked to Oswald?Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.Mr. Goldsmith. Let us backstep for a moment. The transcript that appears at CIA No. 13 contains a notation in brackets by the transcriber that this is the same person who called a day or so ago.Mr. Shaw. To the Soviet Embassy.Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.Oswald also said I was there last Saturday. The transcript you just looked at, September 28th, was for a Saturday.Do you recall whether anyone ever came to you and asked you whether you were aware of a contact by Oswald?Mr. Shaw. I do not recall that anybody ever came to me, and I do not think that they did. This sounds familiar. I would have heard about this after the assassination, because I remember Sylvia Duran was the person being a Mexican citizen inside the Cuban Embassy who I dealt with.
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 65]
SECRET1-65Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, the point I was makingon the October 1st transcript, it refers back to somethingthat happened a day or two earlier, possibly Saturday, andI wondered if Herb Minnell, when they were discussing this,came to you to discuss this matter?Mr. Shaw. I do not believe they did. Barbara probablywould have processed this, but I do not recall that anybodyever came to me about it.Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. Would you please now take a lookat CIA Nos. 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20?(Pause)Mr. Shaw. Here you have one that I saw. Those are myinitials -- No. 19. I did not see this one.Let me see what we have got here.(Pause)I have read it.Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, you have read through CIAdocument No. 22.Mr. Shaw. Yes, I have not read them carefully, but Ihave looked them over.Mr. Goldsmith. Taking a look at CIA No. 16, could youidentify that document?Mr. Shaw. This is a LIENVOY transcript.Mr. Goldsmith. Is it a summary or a verbatim transcript?Mr. Shaw. It is a summary.
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 66]
# SECRET1-66Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date of that transcript?Mr. Shaw. According to the thing in the margin, 27 September '63, 1963. This is really the same darned thing here.Mr. Goldsmith. The same as the transcript that appears on CIA No. 17?Mr. Shaw. It appears to be.Mr. Goldsmith. Approximately what time was this phone call received?Mr. Shaw. It looks like something put on by pen, "Five minutes after 4:00 in the afternoon." MF means a woman -- is that MF?Mr. Goldsmith. Do not worry about that.When was the first time you saw this transcript?Mr. Shaw. I do not remember.Mr. Goldsmith. Did you see it before the assassination?Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.Mr. Goldsmith. Your name appears in the right-hand corner.Mr. Shaw. My name appears there. However, it is not crossed out. If you turn over a couple of pages, you will see my initials on another thing which deals with the same period.Mr. Goldsmith. I will do that in a minute.Do you know whether this transcript was linked to Oswald prior to the assassination?SECRET
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 67]
1-67Mr. Shaw. I do not know whether it was or not. I gather it was not.Mr. Goldsmith. Why is that?Mr. Shaw. It does not say. There is no mark on it, Oswald on here anywhere.Mr. Goldsmith. What are these numbers on the bottom right-hand --Mr. Shaw. That is the file number.Mr. Goldsmith. What file would that be?Mr. Shaw. That says subject file. 50-8-10-6. I do not know off-hand what that is. I think the 50 stands for Mexico. 8-10-6 would be a subject file.Probably possibly someplace where they put information on people where they are trying to travel to the Soviet Union.I do not know; that is a guess..Mr. Goldsmith. Let's take a look at CIA No. 19.Mr. Shaw. Okay. CIA No. 19, 27 September, that looks like my initial. It is very similar.Mr. Goldsmith. In the upper right-hand corner?Mr. Shaw. I cannot imagine anyone else putting it there.Mr. Goldsmith. This is the conversation that took place later in the day, is that correct?Mr. Shaw. 27 September 63, right.Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that this conversation took place sometime around 4:26 in the afternoon, according to
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 68]
1-68the documents?Mr. Shaw. There is an indication there.Mr. Goldsmith! When did this document first come to your attention?Mr. Shaw. I havenno idea, because there is no date up there. I do not know when it was circulated or anything.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know when it was first linked to Oswald?Mr. Shaw. I do not.Mr. Goldsmith. Did Herbert or Barb Minnell ever come to you to discuss this transcript or conversation with you in reference to the transcript dated October 1st?Mr. Shaw. Not that I remember.Mr. Goldsmith. At the bottom of CIA No. 19, it says copy Oswald P-file. Essentially, do you know when that notation was put on?Mr. Shaw. I do not know.Mr. Goldsmith. Turning back to CIA-177, there is a notation on the left-hand side of the page. It says, D:200-5-41. Do you know what that would refer to?Mr. Shaw. I have no idea what the D stands for. The 200-5-41 sounds like a file number.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know for what?Mr. Shaw. No, I do not, but I would assume, again, that maybe that would be -- if it is in the 50 series, it would be
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 69]
1-69a Mexico City file. But it may be a Headquarters -- is this a Mexico City document, or a Headquarters document?Mr. Goldsmith. This is a Headquarters document.Mr. Shaw. That is a Headquarters file number. I have no idea what the D stands for. It does not look right.Mr. Goldsmith. I have asked this question before, but for the record and purposes of clarification, I would like to ask you again, to your knowledge, after the Mexico City station received the cable from Headquarters dated October 10th or 11th, did the Mexico City Station ever send any additional information concerning Oswald to Headquarters?Mr. Shaw. To my knowledge, they did not, but I would have no way of knowing.Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever speak to Herb Minnell about this?Mr. Shaw. No.Mr. Goldsmith. Barbara Minnell?Mr. Shaw. No.Mr. Goldsmith. Dave Phillips?Mr. Shaw. No.Mr. Goldsmith. What, if anything, do you know about the arrest of Sylvia Duran shortly after the assassination?Mr. Shaw. I remember that Sylvia Duran was arrested.I do not know why. I could have suggested that myself, but I do not remember.
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 70]
SECRET1-70I do remember sending a message to Winn Scott suggesting that, right after the assassination, that the Mexicans put in a ring of guards around the Cuban Embassy and question everybody going in and out. I remember that idea coming out of my head.I know that Sylvia Duran was arrested. She was fair game because she was a Mexican national and the Cubans -- she did not have any Cuban diplomatic immunity.I would have thought it would have been a good idea to question here very closely. As to whether I said that she should be arrested or I had anything to do with that, I do not know. I was perfectly capable of making such a suggestion.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Headquarters was upset about that arrest?Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Headquarters did not want any Americans to confront her or to interview her?Mr. Shaw. No.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any reason to believe that Oswald may have been an agent of the KGB?Mr. Shaw. I have no reason to believe it.Mr. Goldsmith. How about an agent, asset or source of the CIA?Mr. Shaw. I would think that that would be completely out of the question.SECRET
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 71]
1-71Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of the record, could you explain why you think that would be out of the question?Mr. Shaw. Because I think it would have come to light immediately had he had any CIA connections.Mr. Goldsmith. In what manner?Mr. Shaw. Somebody would have revealed this fact.Mr. Goldsmith. Had he been an agent of the CIA, asset or employee, is it possible that someone would have been able to cover that fact up?Mr. Shaw. I do not think anyone could have covered up.Mr. Goldsmith. Why not?Mr. Shaw. Had he been an agent, then it would have been on the record somewhere.Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible that the record could have been erased or purged in some way?Mr. Shaw. I seriously doubt it.Mr. Goldsmith. Could you give a reason?Mr. Shaw. Just my belief in the integrity of the organization. It stands on that, and the people in it.Mr. Goldsmith. Does the Agency, to your knowledge, have any safeguards to prevent records from being erased or purged?Mr. Shaw. Nowadays, of course, we have laws which say you can't destroy material. I would say that the safeguards again come back to the basic integrity of the people in the organization. When you lose a President, you do not mess
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 72]
1-72around, and I think everybody would have turned over every possible stone to find out anything they could that would be useful in determining the responsibility for that assassination.I know I would have. I was a Kennedy man, and I imagine there were a lot of us in the outfit who identified very closely with the President.Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever know anybody by the name of Maurice Bishop?Mr. Shaw. No.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether David Phillips, or anyone else, ever used the name Maurice Bishop as an operational alias of some kind?Mr. Shaw. I am not aware that they did, but I would have to answer your question no. Dave Phillips does not seem like a Maurice type, somehow.Mr. Goldsmith. Did Headquarters ever criticize the Mexico City station in any way for its handling of the Oswald matter prior to the assassination?Mr. Shaw. Not that I am aware of.Mr. Goldsmith. For that matter, after the assassination?Mr. Shaw. Not that I am aware of. I must add that criticism would have been conveyed to the Chief of Station rather than to the case officers.Mr. Goldsmith. When Oswald returned to the United States
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 73]
1-73from the Soviet Union, would it have been standard operating procedure for the Agency to have interviewed him or debriefed him in some way?Mr. Shaw. No. I think that it would have been more likely for the FBI to interview him.Mr. Goldsmith. Why is that?Mr. Shaw. Because he was an American citizen in the United States. That was the FBI's territory.Mr. Goldsmith. Even though Oswald worked for several years -- not for several years, but for sometime -- in a radio factory while he was in Russia?Mr. Shaw. I was not aware that he worked in a radio factory, but the fact that he had been in the Soviet Union, the fact that he had been in the United States Marine Corps, would indicate to me that if he had been interviewed, he would have been interviewed by the FBI.Mr. Goldsmith. Does not the Agency have a Domestic Contacts Division, or service, which customarily interviews people who have been abroad in Communist countries?Mr. Shaw. The Agency has the Domestic Contacts Division.It used to be called O/O Contacts. I never worked with those people.It is my understanding that what they do is routinely debrief, if the person is willing, businessmen -- in the old days, tourists -- who had visited the Soviet Union, or to
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 74]
SECRET1-74debrief a man who might have other involvement in the Soviets would not, I believe, have fallen within the purview of the 0/0 Contacts Branch.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any knowledge of the operational activity of the CI/SIG Branch of the CIA?Mr. Shaw. No. I do not know what SIG means. I have never heard of CI/SIG.CI is Counterintelligence staff. I don't know what SIG is.Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, I would like to thank you for your testimony today. I especially would like to thank you for spending all of this time with us. I know that you have been here since approximately 3:00 o'clock or so and it is now about 7:30. You have been very patient.Customarily, whenever a witness testifies before the Committee, the witness is given an opportunity to make a statement for the record. This is not a hearing, but I would like to give you the same opportunity, if you would like to take advantage of it.Mr. Shaw. Well, I might take advantage of it. I had not thought about it until you mentioned it, but harkening back to what I said a little while ago, I do believe that our organization was made up of, like Bill Colby has on the cover of his book over there on the next table, of honorable men, and I do not think that anyone in the organization would haveSECRETALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 75]
1-75allowed any cover-up or any destruction of evidence which might shed some light onthe assassination of President Kennedy.I might add a little vignette. We had what it called a Libra Pecima which is a book that the people signed when they come to a funeral or something. You may have run into something like this in the states, when you go in and sign in at the funeral parlor that you were there or something. You express your regrets -- pecima, in Spanish, means regrets, or sorrow.We had a book down in the lobby of the Embassy building and when I came out one day shortly after the assassination somebody in the crowd yelled Spanish for Bob, and I went over and it was the Governor of the State of Sonora, which is a big state up in northwestern Mexico. I had known him some years earlier. He was the son of the General who was the outstanding military leader of the Mexican Revolution from about 1913 to about 1920.His father had been President of Mexico. His father was assassinated, having been elected to a second term. He was already elected; he had not taken office.I was profoundly touched by the presence of this son of an assassinated President in the lobby of our Embassy to, in turn, express his sorrow to us for the assassination of our President.That does not prove anything one way or another, but it
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 76]
SECRET 1-76made a tremendous effect on me.As I mentioned very early in our session today, I am not aware that there was any exultation, satisfaction, or happiness inside the Cuban Embassy over the assassination of the President. And I think, and my personal belief is, that everything points to Lee Harvey Oswald having done it, and done it alone.There is nothing I have ever seen or heard which would lead me to accept, for one moment, any complicity on the part of my Agency or any other agency of the United States government.Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you, Mr. Shaw.I would like to add that as soon as the transcript of this deposition is available, we will be in touch with you so that you can have an opportunity to review it for accuracy and again, I would like to thank you for your time and help today.Mr. Shaw. I thank you, gentlemen.(Thereupon, at 7:30 p.m. the Executive Session recessed.)
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 77]
SECRETCERTIFICATE OF REPORTERI, Rosemary C. Tascione, the officer before whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition was duly sworn by the Notary; that the testimony of said witness was taken by myself, stenomask reporter, and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition was taken, and further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action.![signature of Rosemary C. Tascione]REPORTERSECRETALDERSON REPORTING COMPAALY
[180-10140-10152.pdf — page 0]
# SECRET180-10140-10152 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992 Box 6 FII #28ACIA HAS NO OBJECTION TODECLASSIFICATION AND/ORRELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENTAS SANITIZEDOLC 78-20911 June 1978MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORDSUBJECT: House Select Committee on Assassinations Request1. (S) The HSCA requests the following persons be made available for deposition. Depositions are conducted in the HSCA office spaces.   B. Hugh Tovar - *Deposition 29 June 78*   William S. Donnelly *Deposition 27 June 78*   Thomas B. Casasin - *UNESCO-Paris-NOC-resigned (T) Jacques Richardson*2. (S) The Committee also requests the following persons be made available for interviews. The interviews will be conducted in Agency office spaces.   Marguerite D. Stevens-OS- *net. 2 June 1968*   Walter P. Haltigan *(P) - (T) = James 7 lent SE/interviews 13.6*   Robert G. Lamprell - *(P) (T) = Irm? Sinclair died*3. (U) This request was presented verbally on 1 June 1978 and is made an official written request by virtue of the HSCA senior representative.whose signature appears below on behalf of the Committee.![signature of Rodger S. Gabrielson]RODGER S. GABRIELSON![signature of Michael Goldsmith]Michael GoldsmithHouse Select Committee on Assassinations6/6/71DateDistribution:Orig - OLC/Subj1 - OGC (Rininger)1 - SA/DO/O (Shepanek)1 - OLC/ChronoOLC/RSG/ksnSECRET140-10152EIMPDET CL BY 3991
[180-10141-10015.pdf — page 0]
# 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 19927# U.S. House of Representatives3342 HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING, ANNEX 2WASHINGTON. D.C. 20515July 19, 1978Mr. Scott BreckinridgePrincipal Coordinator/HSCAOffice of Legislative CounselCentral Intelligence AgencyWashington, D. C.Dear Mr. Breckinridge:This letter is written to follow-up the conversation that Chairman Stokes had with Admiral Turner.The following are those individuals that the Committee would appreciate the assistance of the Agency in arranging interviews with in Mexico next week:June Cobb SharpHenry P. Lopez = Edward G. Tichborn (Staffagent, ret. bufare)Gen. Jose Jesus Clark FloresManuel Calvillo - unwitting coopteeAl Witrich (sp?)Luis Alberu SuotoConsuelo EsperonNoe PalomaresRamon Joseph Alvarez Durant -If additional identifying data is required, I will be glad to provide it orally.Because information referring to some of the people listed above may be of a sensitive or classified nature, this letter may require appropriate classification.Sincerely,G. Robert BlakeyChief Counsel and Director