Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 40]
SECRET1-40Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that.My question is, while surveillance base was in operation, would a primary purpose of it be to take pictures of foreigners?Mr. Shaw. Yes. That would have been a primary purpose. Not necessarily foreigners, but people you do not recognize. Foreigners or Mexicans; Mexicans are foreigners to us, of course.Another thing they did, by the way, was they tried to photograph the license plates of automobiles that came to these embassies.Mr. Goldsmith. During what hours were these photo bases in operation?Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I would say most likely during business hours and proper daylight conditions, when the photographer was available to do the job.Mr. Goldsmith. Would you read back that answer?The Reporter: "Question: "During what hours were these photo bases in operation?"Answer: "I do not know. I would say most likely during business hours and proper daylight conditions, when the photographer was available to do the job."Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, when would photographers have been available to do the job?Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I was not involved in these operations. I used to see quite a bit of coverage.SECRET
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 41]
Mr. Goldsmith. What were your primary responsibilities when you were down there? You were not involved in the photo-surveillance operation; you were not involved -- excuse me for interrupting you.Mr. Shaw. Go ahead.Mr. Goldsmith. You were not involved in the photo-surveillance operation and you were not involved in the wire tap operation, so, my question is, what was your primary responsibility?Mr. Shaw. My primary responsibility was to try to effect penetrations of the Cuban government. I spent a good bit of time with Cubans of the non-Castro persuasion, attempt-ing to identify Cubans of the Castro persuasion that we might go after.By "go after," I mean attempt to recruit.I spent a lot of time collecting information from the Cuban asset on the outside to process into the intelligence reports on what was happening in Cuba.We had a system set up in Mexico City under an agent called AMSAIE who was the representative of the exile community. He would arrange to meet, help, debrief, Cubans who were arriving constantly from Cuba on the way to the United States or to Mexico or to somewhere else in the world, people who were exiting Cuba.Mexico did not break relations with Cuba as did the other
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 42]
SECRET 1-42countries of the Hemisphere. The OAS recommended that;Mexico did not do it.So, when the refugee flow dried up in Florida, we probablyhad one of the most productive operations there in MexicoCity regarding information on what was going on in Cuba.I spent a lot of time with AMSAIL on that.Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever try to recruit Eusbio Ascue?Mr. Shaw. His name is Eusbio Ascue.Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.Mr. Shaw. A-s-c-u-e. Fist name, E-u-s-b-i-o.I did not try to recruit Ascue. That may have beenattempted prior to my arrival, in which the man who would knowabout it, if it had been attempted, would be Mr. ThomasHazelit.Mr. Goldsmith. What about Teresa Proenza?Mr. Shaw. No, I never made any attempt to recruitTeresa Proenza?Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if anyone ever did?Mr. Shaw. I know we had an officer in Washington whohad formerly served in Mexico City who was very interestedin Teresa Proenza. That officer's name was Charles Anders.Mr. Goldsmith. Is he still with the Agency?Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that he is.Mr. Goldsmith. What about Guillermo Ruiz?Mr. Shaw. That does not even ring a bell. Ruiz is aSECRET
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 43]
# SECRET1-431 very common Spanish name. Do you want to tell me who he is2 or if you have anything on him? Maybe it might ring a bell.3 Mr. Goldsmith. Apparently, Mr. Ruiz was a Cuban intelli-4 gence officer at the Embassy, Cuban Embassy.5 Mr. Shaw. I do not recall him there when I was there.6 Mr. Goldsmith. What did you say that Mr. Ray Swider's7 responsibilities were, if you said?8 Mr. Shaw. I did not say. I used his name -- he was9 another officer, like I was, in Cuban operations.10 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether he had anything to11 do with the photo operation.12 Mr. Shaw. I do not know. He may have; I do not know.13 I do not think he did. He may have.14 Mr. Goldsmith. After your arrival in Mexico City, did15 anyone attempt to recruit Ascue?16 Mr. Shaw. As far as I know, there was no attempt made17 to recruit Ascue after my arrival. My memory could be playing18 tricks on me. I know I never went after him.19 (A brief recess was taken.)20 Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to get into the number of21 people who were in Cuban Operations in October of '63, September,22 October of '63. Could you tell me again how many?23 Mr. Shaw. If you could show me a list of the people at24 the American Embassy at that time, I think I could pretty well25 quickly, in the station -- if you have such a list, I probably# SECRET
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 44]
# SECRET1-44could very quickly identify those that had some connection with Cuban Ops.Mr. Goldsmith. The Agency has not given us that list today to have for this purpose.Mr. Shaw. Do you have one lying around?Mr. Goldsmith. No.So far, according to my recollection of appearances, we have Mr. Phillips, yourself and Mr. Swider.Mr. Shaw. When I arrived there, Tom Hasbrook would have been there. He would have been gone by that time.John Zambérnardi would have been involved in the technical ops.I am not sure whether Peggy Magret was there or not.Mr. Goldsmith. How many case officers were there in Cuban operations?Mr. Shaw. Probably just three, three or four, I am not sure.Mr. Goldsmith. There were three case officers,probably four?Mr. Shaw. At least three, yes. Dave and Ray and myself.Mr. Goldsmith. Was thereaaffourth?Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I cannot recall, offhand, who else was there.Wait a minute. Lorna McKay was there, as a researcher -- what was it called? Research analyst.# SECRET
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 45]
1-45Mr. Goldsmith. I am interested now only in case officers. I do have a list here, referred to as CIA 169-70, which has a list of Agency employees. Would you please examine that list?(Pause)Mr. Shaw. Okay.Perhaps there would have been myself, Ray Swider, Dave Phillips and Lorna McKay.Mr. Goldsmith. Was Lorna McKay a case officer?Mr. Shaw. Lorna McKay was not considered -- yes, I guess she was a case officer. I do not know what cases she handled. She did more of what we call INTEL analyst work. She had officer rank, I believe. I believe she was a GS-9 or -11 or something. I do not remember.But Peggy, the girl I mentioned awhile ago, was not there until 1965. That was about it.The ranking would have been David Phillips, myself, Ray Swider, Lorna McKay.Mr. Goldsmith. How did you divide up your responsibilities?Mr. Shaw. Let me interject. Jack Stewart was there, but he was not in Mexico City. He was in Yucatan, in the consulate.Mr. Goldsmith. Fine.How did you four divide up your responsibilities?Mr. Shaw. We were given certain agents to handle and we handled those agents, and Dave Phillips would decide what
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 46]
# SECRET1-461 other activities he would pass around. I notice --2 Mr. Goldsmith. Which were those other activities?3 Mr. Shaw. Anything that might come to light that Dave would -- an ad hoc requirement, or something like that, he5 might ask any of us to help out, or somebody else might ask6 us to do something. I went out and helped surveil a meeting7 one time for one of these guys down here. It had nothing to8 do with Cuban Ops.9 Mr. Goldsmith. What procedures did the four of you10 establish for reviewing photographs?11 Mr. Shaw. The only procedure that was established was12 route the photographs and show them to any agent, personnel,13 who might be in a position to identify the persons in the14 photographs.15 Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of you identify all the photographs16 in the Cuban Operation Branch?17 Mr. Shaw. I do not know.18 Mr. Goldsmith. Was there a system to this?19 Mr. Shaw. If there was, I did not set it up. When I got20 photographs, I would show them to LITAMIL-9 and have him tell21 me who they were and I would write a contact report and submit22 it to my Chief, who was Dave Phillips.23 I would assume that Ray Swider probably did the same24 thing with his agents.25 Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, unless there was a system for# SECRET
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 47]
SECRET1-47reviewing the photographs, you had no way of knowing thatall of the photographs were being reviewed by you and otherCuban Operations case officers?Mr. Shaw. I had no way of knowing. I was seeing all thephotographs, that is true. I assumed I did.Mr. Goldsmith. You had no way of knowing that?Mr. Shaw. Not unless I would have gone to pick them upfrom the man who took them and developed them, which I did notdo.Mr. Goldsmith. With regard to the transcripts, did youhave any procedure for insuring that all of the transcriptswere being reviewed?Mr. Shaw. Did I have a procedure? No. The stationrouted the transcripts to the various officers. Winn Scottquite often routed them. I notice you had a transcript some-where here --Mr. Goldsmith. We will look at the transcripts later on.Mr. Shaw. Winn Scott quite often routed those to aspecific officer.Mr. Goldsmith. Were all of the transcripts pertaining toCuban operations that were sent to the station reviewed by atleast one of the Cuban operations case officers?Mr. Shaw. I do not know.Mr. Goldsmith. Was Mr. Scott a very demanding man?Mr. Shaw. What do you mean by "demanding"?
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 48]
SECRET 1-48Mr. Goldsmith. Did he expect his employees to work hard and to perform thorough, competent work?Mr. Shaw. I assume he did. He never said so in so many words.It was my understanding that until he was remarried he worked long hours in the Embassy, before I got there. Sometimes he had people in there at 9:00 o'clock at night.Mr. Goldsmith. Compared to other station chiefs that you had worked under, was he more demanding or less?Mr. Shaw. I would not say he was any more. He expected work out of his people and got it.Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that the Mexico City station had one of the biggest telephone surveillance operations in existence?Mr. Shaw. Certainly in Latin America.Mr. Goldsmith. Any CIA station?Mr. Shaw. I don't know about any CIA station. Certainly in Latin America. It ate up a lot of man hours.Mr. Goldsmith. In light of the fact that Mr. Scott apparently was a demanding man and that you had one of the largest surveillance operations in effect in Latin America, your testimony today is that you do not know whether the Cuban operations case officers reviewed all of the transcripts?Mr. Shaw. I do not think that the prefacing was necessary.The latter part of that, in which you asked me if I am awareSECRET
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 49]
SECRET 1-49that all of the transcripts of the Cuban Ops were examined by the Cuban Ops section, I would have to, again, say I do not know.(Discussion off the record.)Mr. Goldsmith. We just went off the record for a moment because Mr. Shaw had a question about where his car was parked and whether there would be any problem about that, and I indicated that I did not think there would be a problem.Mr. Shaw, do you recall who delivered the photographs to the station, the tape from the surveillance operation?Mr. Shaw. It was my understanding that the technician picked them up. Bob Zambernardi would have picked them up from the agent.You are talking of the Cuban Embassy now?Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, and consulate.Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that he would have picked them up from the agent who took the photographs. The agent who took the photographs developed them, printed them, and turned the prints over to Mr. Zambernardi. That is the way I think it worked.Mr. Goldsmith. How would you actually get to review the photographs? Who would bring them to you?Mr. Shaw. Usually I do not remember who brought them to me. I have the impression it may have been Lorna McKay, but I could be wrong. Maybe Bob brought them to me. I do not know.
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 50]
But I would get a batch of photographs to go through.Mr. Goldsmith. Who had reporting responsibility for passing along the information that had been obtained from the photographs and the transcripts?Mr. Shaw. There was little reporting that came out of the photographs. Usually, it yielded what we called operational information rather than intelligence information, to enable us to develop a better understanding of who was in the area, of who was in the Cuban Embassy, and what they were up to.As far as reporting intelligence that came from those, it probably was reported by the reports section of the Embassy. Next to Winn Scott's office was the CA Chief's office and, next to that-- I'm getting in the new embassy now. I don not remember where the report section was in the old embassy.We had reports officers who actually repaired most of the reports from raw reports, if you will, reported by the case officers.Again, I would like to point out that these photographs yielded very little reportable intelligence. It was mostly operational intelligence.Mr. Goldsmith. Understood.Who was George Monroe?Mr. Shaw. George Monroe was a former agent, Special Agent, of the Federal Bureau of Investigation who retired or resigned, I do not know how he left the Bureau, and worked in Mexico
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 51]
1-51City on the outside, as a non-official cover asset for Winn Scott. Ann Goodpasture, I believe, had a lot of contact with George Monroe. I very seldom saw George Monroe. I had nothing to do with him operationally.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what his responsibilities were?Mr. Shaw. I believe his responsibilities had to do with dealings with the Mexican government, liaison responsibilities.I think George was used by Winn because George had good contacts in the Ministry of Interior, which would have been sort of the equivalent of the Department of Justice here and out of that Ministry came, for example, the man who became President of Mexico. He was the station asset, contact, not agent.Mr. Goldsmith. You mentioned earlier. Mr. Charles Anderson, is that correct?Mr. Shaw. Yes.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Mr. Anderson had an interest in Eusbio Ascue?Mr. Shaw. No, I do not believe it was. I think it was Teresa Proenza. I do not think he had any interest in Ascue.Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the individual who had the interest in Ascue?Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I said if it had been before my arrival, I would suspect it was Tom Hasley. He was carrying the ball down there and was responsible for that sort of
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 52]
SEGRET 1-52activity. I do not know that he did, but if it happened in, say, late '62 or somewhere in there, it probably would have been Tom who would have done that.Mr. Goldsmith. What was Anderson's position at the Embassy?Mr. Shaw. He was not at the Embassy then. He was at the Embassy back in 1965. I do not know, for a number of years. At that time, Charlie had gone back to Headquarters and he was involved in Cuban operations from Headquarters, the details of which were not made known to me. Whether they were made known to Winn Scott or Dave Phillips or others, I do not know.Mr. Goldsmith. When would he have made an effort, if he did, to recruit Teresa Proenza?Mr. Shaw. I am not sure that he ever tried to recruit. I am merely saying that he had a lot of interest. I do not think anybody ever tried to recruit her. If they did, they were wasting their time.Mr. Goldsmith. Why were they wasting their time?Mr. Shaw. She was a pretty tough nut. I never saw -- if I cantoremember -- I do not remember any vulnerability of Teresa Proenza.Mr. Goldsmith. What was the nature of Mr. Anderson's interest in her?Mr. Shaw. I do not know. Some Cuban operational interest, maybe trying to get some information from her through a third
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 53]
SECRET1-53party. I have no idea.Mr. Goldsmith. When did he spend time in Mexico City thathe would have had an opportunity?.Mr. Shaw. He visited Mexico City quite often.Mr. Goldsmith. Even though he was not stationed downthere, he visited often?Mr. Shaw. That is correct. He made trips in and out ofMexico City.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what Teresa Proenza's positionwas at the Cuban Embassy or Consulate?Mr. Shaw. I think by that time she was out of the Embassy,was she not? I do not remember. She left.Teresa Proenza was a Mexican. She was not a Cuban. AndI am under the impression that by the time I got there,Teresa had left the Embassy. I may be wrong. I think thatshe was involved in cultural activities.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Mexican intelligencewould have had any penetration agents at the Cuban Embassy orconsulate?Mr. Shaw. I think they would have tried. I do not knowhow effective Mexican intelligence was. I did not deal withit.It would be assumed that they made every attempt, theCubans were gradually removing Mexicans from their employee,from the Cuban Embassy. I think it highly unlikely that the
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 54]
1-54Mexican government, given its position, was the only government in the Western Hemisphere which maintained relations with Cuba, would have been -- it would have been highly unlikely for them to have tried to pitch a Cuban national.On the other hand, I think it would have been likely, and would have been expected of them, to have tried to find out from any Mexican working in the Cuban Embassy what was going on.What this comes down to, of course, is gardeners and secretaries.Mr. Goldsmith. Why do you make that distinction between a Cuban national and a Mexican?Mr. Shaw. I make that distinction because of the flap potential If the Mexicans had attempted to pitch a Cuban and the Cuban had not accepted that pitch and had reported it to his superiors, the Mexican Foreign Office then would have had a problem with the Cuban Foreign Ministry.Mr. Goldsmith. Of course, the Mexican government was also taking a risk by being involved in the liaison operation or the Agency as well.Mr. Shaw. One could assume that they had measured their risk, yes, certainly. There is an element of risk in every operation. Do not get me wrong. I do not know whether they had anything going or not. I would assume, just based on my experience, that they would not have tried to pitch Cubans,
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 55]
1-55that they would have tried to exert subtle coercion onMexicans working there to report in the interest of Mexicannational security on what is going on in that Embassy.Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have been in a position to knowif the Mexican government successfully penetrated the CubanEmbassy or consulate?Mr. Shaw. The President of Mexico would have known.The chief or chiefs of the Mexican service or services.Mr. Goldsmith. Any American?Mr. Shaw. Not that I know of.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether there was any coordina-tion between the telephone tap operations and the photooperations. For example, if a conversation of interest cameup on the tap operation, would the people monitoring the callbe able to contact through an intermediary the photo basesto warn them or indicate to them that someone is coming ofinterest?Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that such a system didnot exist, and I do not believe that the guys monitoring thetelephone tap intercept bases were made aware of photographcoverage.However, I would assume that a man running a technicaloperation, if he heard something exciting on the line, asopposed to a tape several days later, would notify his caseofficer right away and then it might be possible for the case
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 56]
1-56officer, assuming a quick reaction capability, to crank upthe people at the photo house to take pictures. This was inthe most perfect of all worlds. Usually things did not workthat way and you end up out on the street, in the middle ofthe night two days later, contacting whoever it is takingphotographs.Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the Mexico Citystation ever obtained a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald?Mr. Shaw. To my understanding, they did not. I neversaw anything down there that looked like Lee Harvey Oswald.Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever hear an allegation thatCharlotte Bustos, at CIA Headquarters in Washington, found aphotograph of Oswald, or someone she thought to be Oswald,in the Headquarters files shortly after the assassination?Mr. Shaw. No, I have never heard such a story. KnowingCharlotte -- not knowing her well, but having known her overthe years, I would assume that had she found such a thingshe would have rung a big loud bell and say, hey, look whatI found.Mr. Goldsmith. With regard to the photo operation, letus assume for a moment that you come across a picture ofinterest. Did you have any way of determining on what day andapproximately what time the picture would have been taken?Mr. Shaw. Very definitely.Mr. Goldsmith. How would you have done that?
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 57]
1-57Mr. Shaw. The photographs were squared off and were annotated. We knew the day. We knew, usually, morning or afternoon, a.m. or p.m. Sometimes you could judge by the sequence.Furthermore, sometimes the actual time of the person going in and going out was actually annotated, if the person operating was operating manually, he would no doubt, the guy with the red-checkered Hawaiian shirt went in at 10:05. He would note' that in a little log.I do not know whether he would note it on the photograph or submit the log with the number keyed to the log in the photograph. Quite often we knew to the minute when a person in a photograph came in or went out or stood in front or walked by.Mr. Goldsmith. I see.So, to your knowledge, there were photo-production logs that could be checked?Mr. Shaw. To my knowledge, such logs did exist, yes. Whether the logs were kept after the information was noted on the photograph, on the back of the photograph or wherever it was noted, I have no idea.The photographs, quite often came in the form of 35 mm. contact strip prints and then blow-ups of a number of those.I recall - I had not thought about it all these years, but usually you knew when a guy, you certainly knew when he went
[180-10131-10329.pdf — page 58]
1-58.in on Tuesday morning, the 16th of May, whatever that date was.Mr. Goldsmith. Who would make the notations on the back of the photograph or contact print as to the time?Mr. Shaw. In our case, I believe it was the man taking the photographs because he took the photographs, developed the photographs, printed them and turned them over.Mr. Goldsmith. If he were to put the time on, he would have to go to his log and see what the time was and then make the entry?Mr. Shaw. Right. He probably made a little notation to himself like I mentioned, the bright shirt or something. Then he would recognize that person in the photograph and make that notation.(Pause)Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time that the name Lee Harvey Oswald came to your attention?Mr. Shaw. It would have been the evening of the day of the assassination.Mr. Goldsmith. How did that happen?Mr. Shaw. We listened. We had a radio. I think it was one of those Zenith Trans-Oceanics in one of the Embassy offices.I was out at an agent meeting when I heard about the assassination and I came back to the Embassy and went upstairs