Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 41]
1 interrogate me in two days. They interrupted -- I don't know2 interrogate a month, two, made break; then again, then again3 period of no interrogation; then again interrogations, up to4 24 hours, not giving me possibility to sleep.5 Mr. Klein. And this was all after April 4, 1964?6 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.7 That is why I will not take as a document anything what8 concerns interrogations in hostile, absolutely hostile,9 situation.10 Mr. Klein. You testified in detail yesterday about the11 cable which you saw which was sent from Mexico City to the First12 Chief Directorate in Moscow, and you testified that you actually13 read that cable and that it told that Oswald was in Mexico City14 and he wanted permission for visa to come to the Soviet Union.15 Do you remember reading that cable and describing it for16 us in detail, how long it was?17 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.18 Mr. Klein. Did you ever say to anyone that after Oswald19 went to Minsk, the next time you heard of him was in connection20 with Oswald's application to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City21 for a Soviet reentry visa, and you did not know how Mexico City22 advised Moscow of the subject's application; your knowledge23 resulted from an oral inquiry of your department by M.I. Turalin.24 Did you ever say that, that you did not know how Mexico25 City advised Moscow of Oswald's application?
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 42]
41Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember. I am telling you whatI have seen, cable, what was told through Lieutenant ColonelAlekseev to tell to Turalin the opinion of Second Chief DirectorateSeventh Department.Mr. Klein. I draw your attention to page 30 of the FBIreport in front of you.Mr. Nosenko. I do not have it.(Pause)Yes, sir.Mr. Klein. On the top of page 30, read for us the under-lined section on the top, beginning "The next time" --Mr. Nosenko. "The next time Nosenko heard of Oswald wasin connection with Oswald's application to Soviet Embassy inMexico City for a Soviet reentry visa. Nosenko did not know howMexico City advised Moscow of subject's application. Hisknowledge resulted from an oral inquiry of Nosenko's departmentby Turalin, Service No. 2, Counterintelligence in ForeignCountries, First Chief Directorate. Nosenko recalled that Turalinhad orally contacted Vladimir Alexseev, Chief of Sixth Sectionof Nosenko's Tourist Department, with respect to Oswald.Nosenko's department had no interest in Oswald and theyrecommended that Oswald's request for reentry visa be denied.Nosenko couldn't recall when Oswald visited Mexico City inconnection with visa application."Mr. Klein. Did you ever say this to an FBI agent?
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 43]
42Mr. Nosenko. Must be I said it, it's here in document.Mr. Klein. It says in here that Nosenko did not know how Mexico City advised Moscow of subject's application. Did you say that?Mr. Nosenko. Must be; I said this in this way.Mr. Klein. And did you tell us that not only did you know how they advised them by cable but that you read the cable?Mr. Nosenko. This is what I recollection.Mr. Klein. Did you tell them the truth?Mr. Nosenko. I was trying to tell what I remembered.Mr. Klein. And this FBI report which you just read from, would you look back on the first page and would you tell us the date of thatreport?Mr. Nosenko. Fifth of March, 1964.Mr. Klein. March 5, 1964. Is that before April 4, 1964?Mr. Nosenko. Yes,sir.Mr. Klein. That was before any hostile interrogations began, is that correct?Mr. Nosenko. Yes.Mr. Klein. And at that time you said that you did not know anything about the cable, is that right?Mr. Nosenko. This is what I answered them, how I remembered.Mr. Klein, I have a question. Do you understand from what psychological turmoil a person, passing who defected, do
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 44]
TOP SECRET43you understand that it is necessary time, time to settle psy-chologically, he doesn't know how he will be living, what he willbe doing, and at the same time a person feels attitude on thepart of those who helped him to come CIA? I felt somethinggoing on.Mr. Klein. You testified to us today that you didn'tknow how wrote the summary of Oswald's file in the First Depart-ment because you never had an opportunity to read it. Did youever tell anyone that Fedroseve and Matveev, F-e-d-r-o-s-e-v-eand M-a-t-v-e-e-v of the First Department, Second ChiefDirectorate, took the file and wrote a second "spravka", whichyou told us was a summary?Mr. Nosenko. Summary.Mr. Klein. Did you ever tell anybody that?Mr. Nosenko. Must be I told, it is again right, becauseyou see, not Fedroseve -- Fedroseve was Chief of First Depart-ment, American Department, and I will repeat what I told youyesterday. Matveev has come to take file, but surely Fedrosevewho is Chief of American Department, he had given call to Chiefof Seventh Department. He was involved in this; that is why Imentioned him. He was Chief of First American Department.His deputy, Colonel Matveev, has come, and not alone; with himwas a couple of officers, has come and told that Gribanovordered and Fedroseve giving call to Department, we must takeit, and took. Who of them wrote, I do not know, no doubts that Fedroseve,and Matveev were participated in the preparation of documents.TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 45]
They are responsible for First American Department.Mr. Klein. So you have an idea of who would have written, is that correct?Mr. Nosenko. American Department, no doubts that this two will be participating or correcting.Mr. Klein. But you didn't read that summary, is that right?Mr. Nosenko.. I do not remember reading the summary.Mr. Klein. Did you read it? Do you have any recollection of reading it?Mr. Nosenko. No, I haven't seen summary.Mr. Klein. Are you positive that you didn't see that summary?Mr. Nosenko. I have seen summaries in the file of Oswald.Mr. Klein. Are you positive you didn't see the summary written by the First Department after they took the file away?Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember seeing. As I told you, I haven't seen it.Mr. Klein. You testified that Oswald was considered normal prior to the time he cut his wrist, and even told us that you were surprised, you had no indication he would do something like that.Were you ever asked the following question, and did you give the following answer:"In what way was the Oswald case handled differently from cases of other American defectors?"
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 46]
"Answer: The main difference is that he was not to be allowed to stay. He was considered to be not normal."Mr. Nosenko. This is what cases I know, who were staying.Mr. Klein. Did you ever say that he was considered not normal, referring to the period before he tried to commit suicide?Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember; but if I said it, it's not right becuase we didn't know that he was normal or not normal. Up until the moment of he cut his wrist we started to suspect.Mr. Klein. Did you ever say that he was considered not normal?Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not remember.Mr. Klein. Well, if you would have said it, would it have been correct?Mr. Nosenko. No, it would not be correct, because he cannot be considered abnormal. We didn't know anything up till he cut the wrist.Mr. Klein. You testified to this Committee that you were present at a meeting with the Chief of the Seventh Department Chief of your section, Major Rastrusin, at that meeting, it was decided that Oswald should not be given permission to defect. You told us where the meeting took place, told us who was there.Mr. Nosenko. Right.Mr. Klein. You told us that Krupnov was not even in the
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 47]
1 Seventh Department at that time?2 Mr. Nosenko. Krupnov appeared a little later.3 Mr. Klein. Did you ever tell anyone that on the basis of4 your evaluation of Oswald, you instructed Krupnov to advise Oswald5 through Intourist interpreter that Oswald would not be permitted6 to remain in the U.S.S.R. permanently and that he would have7 to depart at the expiration of his visa?8 Did you ever tell anybody that?9 Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not remember. If I said it, it10 was wrong, not right, because Krupnov started participation only11 in this case when Oswald was allowed to stay. In the moment12 when Oswald arrived in Soviet Union, when he went in hospital,13 Krupnov was still not in Seventh Department. He very soon14 appeared later. Then it was wrong. If I stated it, it was15 wrong.16 Mr. Klein. Directing your attention to the FBI report in17 front of you, I would like to draw your attention to page 28.18 Mr. Nosenko. Right.19 Mr. Klein. Beginning with the underlined section beginning20 with the first "On the basis" in the second paragraph, would21 you read this?22 Mr. Nosenko. "Nosenko and Krupnov on the basis of this23 information, concluded that Oswald was of no interest to the24 KGB and both agreed that Oswald appeared somewhat abnormal."25 Mr. Klein. Not that, the second paragraph, "On the basisof"
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 48]
47Mr. Nosenko. "On the basis of Nosenko's evaluation of Oswald, he instructed Krupnov to advise Oswald through the Intourist interpreter Oswald would not be permitted to remain in the U.S.S.R. permanently and that he would have to depart at the expiration of his visa, and thereafter seek reentry as a permanent resident through routine channels at the Soviet Embassy in the United States."Mr. Klein. Did you ever say that?Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember saying this. It can be that simply misunderstanding, and, you see, this is not transcription from the tape. It is, I will say a summary, and I do not remember. But, if I said this, it is not right because Krupnov didn't participate it in the beginning.Mr. Klein. Also it says --Mr. Nosenko. It was participation of Rastrusin.Mr. Klein. Also is it correct when it says in there that you made the decision and --Mr. Nosenko. No, I couldn't make decision, being Deputy Chief of Section.Mr. Klein. Does it say anything there --Mr. Nosenko. I could say my opinion, yes.Mr. Klein. Does it say anything there about a meeting to determine what to do, or does it say that on basis of your evaluation, you told Krupnov to do it?Mr. Nosenko. It's not right. I said only that Krupnov
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 49]
481 appeared later. This period, what we are discussing here, was2 Rastrusin involved, decision cannot be done on my own, being3 Deputy Chief of Section, decision cannot be done even being4 Deputy Chief of Section, Chief of Section, at least it5 must be on the level of Chief of Department.6 Mr. Klein. So it is incorrect, is that what you are saying?7 Mr. Nosenko. It is incorrect, and Krupnov -- I do not8 remember.9 Mr. Klein. You told us, when I questioned you about the10 fact that you didn't tell the FBI that there was physical11 surveillance, the last question I asked you, if they would have12 asked you if he was physically surveilled, would you have told13 them, and you said yes?14 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sure. I will say..15 Mr. Klein. Were you ever asked the following question16 and did you give the following answer:17 "Was he physically surveilled" and that is referring to18 Minsk, and you answered "No, there was none"?19 Mr. Nosenko. It was not right, because it was order given20 and he was under periodical surveillance.21 Mr. Klein. I draw your attention to page 9 of the CIA22 document in front of you, Memorandum for the Record.23 Mr. Nosenko. I do not have it.24 Mr. Klein. The Ryan Report. I draw your attention to page25 9.
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 50]
Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.Mr. Klein. Would you read the first question and the first answer?Mr. Nosenko. "Was he physically surveilled?""No, there was none."Mr. Klein. Did you ever give that answer to that question?Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember; it's not right, the answer.Mr. Klein. I would ask that this tape, which is marked 3 July '64, Reel No. 66, be deemed marked for identification.The Chairman. Indicate for the record the marking.The Clerk. JFK-F-7.(The item referred to was marked as JFK Exhibit No. F-7 for identification.)The Chairman. We will recess for about five minutes.(A brief recess was taken.)The Chairman. The Committee is back in session.During the recess the witness made a request of the Chair that he be permitted to make a brief statement prior to counsel for the Committee resuming interrogation.The Chair is going to grant that request and recognize the witness at this time for such statement as he would like to make.Mr. Nosenko. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 51]
Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, I arrived in the United States in 1964, 12th of February. I felt something was going wrong because the attitude on the part of the officers from CIA who was dealing with me, I felt was going wrong, by a number of remarks, their behavior. Besides, I was in a psychological process. It's a very big thing, when you are coming to live in a new country. I left the country where I was born, never mind, my defection was strictly on ideological basis, but still psychologically is very big thing and very serious thing.A very short period of time, April 4, I was invited on check-up for the doctor, and this checkup turned to be arrest. Arrested was in very rude form, nobody beat my physically, no, but in rude form, trying to put dignity of the person, of human being, down, kept in very hard conditions. I was smoking from 14 years old, never quitted. Iwas rejected to smoke. I didn't see books. I didn't read anything. I was sitting in four walls, metal bed in the center of the room and that is all.I was hungry, and this was the most difficult for me because how I tried not to think about food. I was thinking about food because all the time I want to eat. I was receiving very small amount, and very poor food. I was sitting some kind of attic; it was hot, no air conditioning, cannot breathe; windows -- no windows, closed over. I was permitted to shave once a week,
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 52]
51to take showers once a week.From me were taken toothpaste, toothbrush. The conditions were really inhuman, conditions in this place; and later transferred in another place, which is now I know where it was, the second place, Camp Perry, where certain house and the same very, very Spartan conditions; three and a half years.Besides that, on me were used different types of drugs and sleeping drugs, hallucination drugs, and whatever I do not know, and don't want to know.What I want to tell you, the arrest was done illegally, without due process of law, without -- in violation of Constitution, which was found by Rockefeller Commission. It wasn't mentioned, my name, but simply nameless defector, who was over three years in extremely Spartan conditions.Interrogations were done sometimes 24 hours, not giving me an hour to sleep. Interrogations were in very hostile manner. Simply, what I would say were rejected. How long I will be, why it is without due process, no warrants; "You will be eternally, 25 years." How long we would want you to keep. That is why I consider all interrogations, all materials, which concerns this period of time are illegal, and I am not recognizing them and don't want to see them. And I am asking you not to ask questions based on this interrogations, including trying to play the tape during this interrogations. For me it's difficult to return back. I passed through hell. I started new life in
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 53]
521 '69 only because I was true defector. I never raised this2 question with correspondents. I never went in press, because3 I am loyal to the country which accepted me, and I didn't wanted4 to hurt the country.5 I didn't hurt, even to hurt, the intelligence, the CIA.6 I didn't consider the whole CIA was responslbe. Were responsible7 several people, for this. Thank God they are not working there8 anymore. They are out. If I will go in press, if I would9 be telling about these inhumane conditions, I will hurt not only10 the agencies, the intelligence service of the U.S., I will hurt11 the interests of the U.S..Who would like to defect, reading12 in what conditions and what treatment defectors is receiving.13 Sir, I prefer that you be using materials when it was started14 humane relations with me, which was started at the end of '67.15 I still was under arrest but I was transferred from the extremely16 Spartan conditions, and with me started to work Mr. Bruce17 Solie, who passed through the whole life, through all cases,18 through everything. People who were talking with me before19 were coming with what they were told, how to approach to me,20 how to treat me. They have come with made opinion, before21 whatever I will say yes or no. That is why I consider it22 is all unlawful documents in the period of interrogations done23 by anyone in CIA up until the end of '67.24 The Chairman. Is there anything further, Mr. Nosenko?25 Mr. Nosenko. No, sir.(Pages 53 thru 78, being Committee business only, are excerpted.)
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 54]
TOP SECRETMr. Blakey.. Shall I inform the witness?The Chairman. In light of the time situation and ouroriginal intention of trying to wind up by 10:00 p.m., the Chairthinks perhaps we ought to try and invoke a five minute ruleso that everybody gets a fair opportunity rather than to proceedinformally and extend this matter over a long period of time.Anyone have any objection?All right, bring the witness in.(Whereupon, at 8:43 o'clock p.m., the witness returnedto the hearing room.)The Chairman. Let the record reflect the fact the witnesshas again returned to the witness table and, Mr. Nosenko,at this time counsel for the Committee has concluded his questionsto you and at thispoint in time the members of the Committeewould like to be able to pose questions to you with referenceto your testimony here yesterday and this evening. Is thatagreeable to you, sir?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.The Chairman. Thank you.The Chair at this point would invoke the five minuterule. The Chair will begin the questions.Mr. Nosenko, you are now a citizen of the United States,you are now an employee of the CIA, I understand as a consultant,is that correct?Mr. Nosenko. On private contract. I am not an employeeTOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 55]
TOP SECRET79of the CIA. I am on a private contract, used as a consultant on counterintelligence of the Soviet KGB.The Chairman. And in that capacity, sir, are you paid an annual salary?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, I am paid an annual salary.The Chairman. And what is that salary?Mr. Nosenko. $35,000.The Chairman. And --Mr. Nosenko. It is the last year, because it was cost of living.The Chairman. I see. In that capacity, do you contract out also to other persons or other organizations?Mr. Nosenko. No.The Chairman. This is your sole income?Mr. Nosenko. Only one sole income.The Chairman. Has the CIA given you anything else of value other than a salary, that is, a home, anything of that sort?Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. And in the book published, written by Epstein was mentioned CIA bought me home. No, sir, I bought home on my money, nobody bought me a home, no.The Chairman. You also now are remarried and you have --Mr.Nosenko.. Yes, sir, I am married. I am American citizen, I have five stepchildren and six grandchildren.The Chairman. You now have a passport? Do you have a
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 56]
TOP SECRET1 passport as a --2 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, I have a passport, which I once used being sent by the Agency in 1975, in England, for week where I was talking with British Intelligence and Counterintelligence Services, concerning my knowledge of the Second Chief Directorate, KGB in general.3 The Chairman. Is that the only country to which you have traveled since your defection?4 Mr. Nosenko. No. I have traveled on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency also for the last four years. I was in eleven countries. And I never received or demanded or asking any special fees for consultations with all friendly intelligence services, never.5 The Chairman. Have you ever returned to Soviet Russia?6 Mr. Nosenko. Never once in Soviet Union from 1964 and hope will never see it again.7 The Chairman. And how long have you now been a consultant for CIA?8 Mr. Nosenko. I was from 1969, from April 1969, when I was released from detention arrest.9 The Chairman. Now, will you clarify for us when you first were placed under arrest?10 Mr. Nosenko. Fourth of April, 1964.11 The Chairman. And on what date had you defected?12 Mr. Nosenko. I defected 4th of February of 1964 in Geneva.TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 57]
# TOP SECRET81Switzerland.The Chairman. And when you were placed under arrest,where were you placed in detention?Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not know, it was somewhere around Washington, close to Washington, where I was '64 and beginning '65, approximately. I don't hear any radio, I didn't see any newspaper, I do not know, didn't know anything what happen in the world for many years.I know that it was by car from Virginia where I was staying from 12 of February '64, I was taken by car for visit to doctor, and it was 30, 40 minute drive, it was in this area, but then in approximately after a year and maybe 13 months, a year and one month, roughly, I was transferred in very peculiar conditions, was put under shackles and handcuffs, blindfolded, put in the car, and don't know where I was going, only I heard, passing through city, I couldn't understand, I couldn't see anything, then I heard airplanes, I understood that I was somewhere in airport, and once I was scared to death, I think I was thinking they were returning me to the Russians. Well, they put me in airplane --The Chairman. Mr. Nosenko, my time has expired. I want to recognize --Mr. Nosenko. I do not know the place, sir. I know I only now found out reading the book of Daniel Schorr that I was in Camp Perry up to the end of '67. That is what I found out from# TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 58]
TOP SECRET821 the book.2 The Chairman. Thank you.3 Mr. Preyer.4 Mr. Preyer. Mr. Nosenko, one thing that comes through very5 strongly in your testimony is that it is a hard life to be a6 defector. I think to the average mentality we think it would7 be good for a country to welcome a defector, but to the8 intelligence mentality apparently a defector is immediately sus-9 pect, and you have recounted your treatment here, and apparently10 Lee Harvey Oswald, from your testimony, was greeted somewhat11 like this in the U.S.S.R. His treatment was much different12 from yours.13 One thing he was not an intelligence agent, of course.14 But you have indicated that he was kept at arms' length by the15 KGB. The impression I get was the mere fact of being a defector16 caused the KGB to be less interested in him than if it was17 someone they had recruited?18 Mr. Nosenko. Right.19 Mr. Preyer. Although he was kept at arms' length by the20 KGB, in the sense that he was not contacted, it does appear21 that he lived very well there, relatively speaking. He cer-22 tainly lived much better than you lived in your early years.23 That he was given a job in Minsk, he was given a pension,24 which is something that seems extraordinary in this country,25 from the Red Cross, and apparently pretty good housing conditions