Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 59]
TOP SECRET831 in Minsk.2 Is that typical way that a defector would be treated in3 Russia, is at arm's length?4 Mr. Nosenko. Every defector will be watched but, sir,5 when you mentioned what he received being in Russia, it is very6 little. I can give you only one example. When defectors7 Martin and Mitchell, employees of NSA, who cooperated with KGB8 abroad, and then they defected to Soviet Union, they received9 extraordinary help. It is not like Oswald. Oswald is nothing.10 Mr. Preyer. The amount of money?11 Mr. Nosenko. The amount of money and other things,12 extroardinary.13 Mr. Preyer. For Oswald were not extraordinary?14 Mr. Nosenko. No.15 Mr. Preyer. You mentioned the other three defectors that16 you had known of. What sort of treatment did they receive?17 Mr. Nosenko. I will tell you what Martin and Mitchell --18 Mr. Preyer. Were they two of the other three?19 Mr. Nosenko. These two, for example. I can mention others, what I heard, I never work with them, what I heard. Martin and Mitchell, by decision of Soviet Government was given them,21 to each one, $100,000 on their account, was given apartment, not like Oswald received, but real good apartment, so-called classless society, living high class. Each one was given car, each one received life pension a month of 5000 Soviet rublesNW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 60TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 60]
TOP SECRET84up to death. And each one was helped with work. Both were assigned with some type of research work where they had given position, let's say Martin was given position of researcher. But amount of pay of his was analogical to the amount of pay of the Director of this Institute, besides what he is receiving of pension. This is the treatment of those defectors whom they want, who had given them valuable information.In case of -- excuse me -- was Annabella Bucar defected something early '50s. She was working in American Embassy in Press Department. She also received, in spite of the fact was making very good money in the Soviet Union, she was working for Moscow Radio, she was receiving life pension of big amount, amount approximately what in Soviet Union is received by Deputy of Minister, of Ministry, of this or that industry.Mr. Preyer. But the defector who was not giving information?Mr. Nosenko. Now, he will be given a little bit something, pension like was Oswald, to Oswald given pension. I don't know what was given to Webster, a worker, who was defected in '59 and by the way, in very short period of time he decided he doesn't like the life in the so-called Soviet paradise. He wanted to return back home, but if he received it will be analogical to what Oswald received, not more.The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.Mr. Devine.TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 61]
TOP SECRETMr. Devine. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.Were you solicited to be a defector?Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. No, sir.Mr. Devine. Why did you defect?Mr. Nosenko. I defected because I for years of my life has come to number of conclusions that the whole society, the whole system, is dictatorial system, nondemocratic system, the true police state system, and especially working the KGB opened eyes for me. My defection was strictly on ideological basis.Mr. Devine. Had you been out of the Soviet Union prior to your defection?Mr. Nosenko. Yes.Mr. Devine. Other than to Geneva?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, I was in England twice, then I was passing through a number of countries, staying day, two, France, Belgium, Holland. I was in 1960 in Cuba.Mr. Devine. You were a married man in Russia?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.Mr. Devine. Had a child?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, two daughters.Mr. Devine. Were you having some domestic difficulties?Mr. Nosenko. No. I tried in 1960-'61, I tried to arrange to go to work abroad with my family, and in the last moment it fell down, and I understood I cannot go abroad with family.TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 62]
# TOP SECRET86and that is why when I contacted CIA in '62, I -- psychologically I was ready, ideologically was ready and psychologically ready to defect, but the question of family was bothering me.Mr. Devine. But not enough to keep you there?Mr. Nosenko. Not enough to keep me there. And in '64 I has come knowing that I will never return.Mr. Devine. You were willing to abandon your family?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, because I didn't see possibility to take family out. I was living the last four or five years as a man with two souls, splitted personality, one I must show and was showing, as good KGB officer, as a good Communist, as a patriot of the Soviet system, the Soviet Union, and the other part of me, the true part I am not believing in what I am telling, I am not believing in the system, I do not like it, I do not want it, and I consider what phony things are going on because I was working in KGB, I knew it. I simply couldn't more tolerate to be with this double splitted personality.Mr. Devine. How did you dispose of your children and your wife in Russia?Mr. Nosenko. The thing was psychologically, my had, had in my mind. help me. My mother was rather rich, after death of father, she was very rich woman and she had a lot that will be enough not only for my children but their children and grand- children. From the point of view of material they will never suffer.NW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 63TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 63]
# TOP SECRET87Mr. Devine. Yes, but as a defector would there not bereprisals taken by the Soviet Union against your family?Mr. Nosenko. Sir, before the death of Stalin it couldbe taken drastic measures against the family, but after thedeath of Stalin, from middle 1950s, quite a little changes tookplace in the Soviet Union, and the family will not suffer.Another thing, oh sure, will be certain things which theycannot achieve. Let's say my brother who studied later inthe same Institute what I finish, Institute of InternationalRelations, he will never have possibility to go abroad, buthe will never be put in jail, can never be exiled from Moscow,the same, nothing happened with family.Mr. Devine. The fact that you were a KGB man didn't yourdefection cause some irritation among those in power over there?Mr. Nosenko. Sure.Mr. Devine. Did they want to get you back, didn't theywant to get even with you?Mr. Nosenko. Oh, yes, and they are looking for me.Mr. Devine. But they took no reprisals against your family.Mr. Nosenko. No.Mr. Devine. How do you know that?Mr. Nosenko. Well, I do not know exactly, but you see,there were some defections before. The family didn't suffer likeit was, let's say, in '40s and maybe up to death of Stalin.Mr. Devine. Were those KGB defections?Mr. Nosenko. Even from KGB.TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 64]
# TOP SECRET88The Chairman. The time of the gentleman' has expired.Mrs. Burke?Mrs. Burke. Well, I would like to go back a little bit after you decided to defect. I think you had a number of conversations with the American Embassy, was it, or was it CIA, during those ten days that you were in touch, where you negotiated whether or not you would in fact defect?Mr. Nosenko. No, I contacted CIA in 1962 and --Mrs. Burke. In '64?Mr. Nosenko. In '64, when I arrived in Geneva, on second day I mailed a cable, and I knew -- a prearranged addressed, and I knew that in two days somebody in appropriate place and appropriate time will meet me from CIA.Mrs. Burke. And they met you --Mr. Nosenko. They met me and I was meeting them every day, visiting, and when I had free time, visited secret address in Geneva.Mrs. Burke. All right, during those times you were meeting them, did you negotiate in terms of what your situation would be here in the United States if you defected, or where you would go?Mr. Nosenko. Well, I put a question that what amount of salary I want, that will find for me job. This I negotiateMrs. Burke. Did you discuss whether or not you would be imprisoned?# TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 65]
TOP SECRET89Mr. Nosenko. No, it never come to my mind that they would imprison me.Mrs. Burke. Did you tell them that -- I think you told us you had some information you would well to them for a certain amount of money.Mr. Nosenko. It's in '62.Mrs. Burke. In '62 you said that. In '64 you didn't discuss any sale of any information?Mr. Nosenko. No, no, on the contrary, for the period of '62 -'64, I tried to get as much as possible information: not only to come what I knew where I participated in the department where I worked but to find out as much as possible what can be valuable to the American intelligence and I had come with some luggage.Mrs. Burke. All right, well, during the time that you were talking to them about what your salary would be, the circumstances of your defection, and I assume you told them what your rank was, some of the things you worked on --Mr. Nosenko. Yes.Mrs. Burke. -- did you tell them you worked on the Oswald file?Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember, I can mention. I do not remember, honestly.Mrs. Burke. Did you discuss Oswald at all with them during that period?TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 66]
# TOP SECRET90Mr. Nosenko. I must, sure, mentioned this fact because, no, it happened such a thing. I must mention. But I do not remember. I cannot tell you what questions were, what my answers were.Mrs. Burke. Did you tell them that the Soviet Union thought that Oswald may have been a United States agent?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, I certainly -- it would be -- anyone treated. Oswald, or anyone from the United States who come to live on his own decided to defect, or they contacted him before, they will still will be suspected in a possibility that he is an agent of American intelligence, and also this fact.Mrs. Burke. And is..this the reason that you gave him why he was not allowed to remain in the Soviet Union?Mr. Nosenko. The reason was that they didn't want him to stay because, KGB, because they didn't consider him an interest+ing target, an interesting person who has valuable informationMrs. Burke. I know that. In fact, I remember you saying something about a person would only be interesting under certain circumstances, one of which would be if they came in as a tourist and they applied a very short time before they arrived..Mr. Nosenko. Oh no.Mrs. Burke. And they were an add on to, for instance, the tour.Mr. Nosenko. Right. Right.Mrs. Burke. Now, from what that report shows, it shows that# TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 67]
TOP SECRET91Oswald received his visa in two days to come to the Soviet Union. So he would be automatically suspect, and he would be automatically what you would call an interesting person.Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no. In this case, you see, Oswald even didn't receive a visa in United States; he received it passing through Europe.Mrs. Burke. Through Helsinki?Mr. Nosenko. Right, in Finland, where it's process was easier than it will be in the United States. He simply bought a tour and he received, managed to receive visa.Mrs. Burke. Let me just ask one other thing.Did you tell them any of your, aside from the ideological, why you wanted to defect? For instance, did you tell them anything about this promotion you thought you had when you went to, was it, Gorki?Mr. Nosenko. Yes.Mrs. Burke. But then you --Mr. Nosenko. No, I didn't tell them. I simply said that my position, because with me, it was documented, I lied. I said my position was Lieutenant Colonel. It wasn't true. It was false statement. The same false statement was concerning recall telegram when I wanted to push the defection process.Mrs. Burke. My time is up. May I just ask one question? Were you upset when you didn't get your promotion after they had --
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 68]
TOP SECRET92Mr. Nosenko. No, no ma'am. I still didn't receive it.It was sent on signature. You see, they are signing, not immediately when they are received. Personnel Directorategather in from all over the Soviet Union, from all KGBs and comment on signature to the Chairman, twice, three times a year. They were simply gathering in and didn't get enough materials. I do not know. Maybe it was signed in January. But up to my leaving, nobody informed me that it was signed. I didn't -- wasn't rejected.The Chairman. The time of the gentlewoman has expired.Mr. Dodd?Mr. Dodd. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.I wonder if you might let me ask you -- let me start back here, very quickly. One of the very first questions you were asked last night by Mr. Klein, was the way Mr. Klein worded the question, and I will ask you to expound on it if it is a correct recall on my part.Mr. Klein asked you or stated that you arranged for your transfer to the American section of the KGB. He used the words you arranged for your transfer to that section. Is that an accurate statement? Did you want to be in that section? Did you specifically ask to be in that section?Mr. Nosenko. No, it wasn't accurate, it wasn't right.Arrangement was done in work form. I was working after finishing Institute in GRU, Navy Intelligence, and being in 1952 New Year,TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 69]
# TOP SECRET93in Moscow on New Year on a short leave, I was in company where it was one of my friends with whom I studied at the Institute.He worked in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. But his father-in-law was high ranked General of MGB, in those years was called KGB, and he asked me what I am doing, this General.I said that I am working for the Navy Intelligence, GRU.Do you like this work?I said no, because I am not using what I received education.Would you like to work in MGB?I said, if it will be with the use of my disciplines which I studied at the Institute, why not? That is all. And in March after death of Stalin this general was appointed the First Deputy Minister of MGB of Beria. He remembered this conversation and several days after death of Stalin I was recalled to MGB which was called MVD in this period of time, in March of '53, and was assigned to Second Chief Directorate. This is what true statement.Mr. Dodd. When you sent to the safe house or whatever it was in Geneva, in 1964, by your own admission you lied to the agent there in that you stated you had received a telegram issuing your recall back to the Soviet Union.Mr. Nosenko. Right.Mr. Dodd. Therefore, it was that important that they accept you immediately.# TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 70]
TOP SECRET941 Did you show anyone a telegram?2 Mr. Nosenko. No, sir,eno,sir. There wasn't any telegram.3 Mr. Dodd. Did they ask for a telegram?4 Mr. Nosenko. No, but, sir, what happened, I started to meet them in January, had passed three, four, five, six, seven days. I am afraid of that any moment my Chief of the Second Chief Directorate will be returning from France.8 Mr. Dodd. I didn't ask you that, Mr. Nosenko. My question to you is, were you asked whether or not you had a copy of the telegram that you had received from the Soviet Union?11 Mr. Nosenko. And I -- if I was even asked I couldn't give them because I cannot take it. It would be secret cable.14 Mr. Dodd. You have answered my question.15 You stated last night that -- and this might have been a supposition on your part, but I am curious about it -- you stated that it was your feeling that the intelligence community in this country considered you a dispatched agent in 1962. Is that something that you felt in 1962?20 Mr. Nosenko. No. It's --21 Mr. Dodd. A reflection back?22 Mr. Nosenko. A reflection back. No, no, sir.23 Mr. Dodd. You, by your own statement, again have received some very rough treatment, inhuman treatment, to use your words, living under spartan conditions, and I am sort of brushing overTOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 71]
TOP SECRET95this very quickly, between 1964 and 1969. Certainly you couldn't have been very pleased with the way you were being treated by a country that you had defected to and offered to give information to. So for a period of that '64, to '69, five years, you went through a rather rough period in your life?Mr. Nosenko. Yes.Mr. Dodd. Why did you go to work for somebody who treated you like that?Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I, even was five year there, I didn't consider that it was decision of the whole CIA. I didn't consider that -- I didn't blame the whole CIA because it wasn't the question decided by the whole Agency. It was decided question by several persons who were I consider simply in this period of time sick, mentally sick, not ill, but were simply in fear, in scare, in mania as if KGB penetrated everything.Mr. Dodd. Is it your statement to me that for five years, while you were incarcerated in almost solitary confinement, that you thought that this was the individual acts of a couple of employees of this Agency?Mr. Nosenko. Not employees.Mr. Dod. Without the approval of the very highest authority in this Agency?Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I have seen Chief of Soviet Russia Division, Mr. David Murphy. He was a high ranking man. It wasTOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 72]
# TOP SECRET96his decision, decision of Mr. Angleton, decision of Mr. Murphy, and when they are coming to Director, and I know, from my life, they can report in the way how they will report it, and the Director will accept because they are responsible people, they are sitting in this place. He is not going into details, he is not going and studying, he is not going himself visiting.The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.Mr. Sawyer?Mr. Sawyer. First, have you received any compensation for the period during which you were held in jail?Mr. Nosenko. I received in several years later, I put the question, I want to be paid for every year which I was unlawfully arrest, the amount of money which we have agreed, with taken taxes and whatever American citizens are paying.Mr. Sawyer. Did you get that?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, and on this sum of money I bought the house.Mr. Sawyer. I see.I will tell you what bothers me about your testimony, very frankly. You stated that they would be very interested in a member of the American intelligence community that they could even compel to defect. Here you had a willing defector, a guy who said that undoubtedly that he didn't like America, and that he did like Russia, and he wants to defect, and nobody even interrogates him, according to you, as to what exposure orNW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 73# TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 73]
TOP SECRET                                                                                                                                 971 experience he had. He might have worked in the missile silos, he might have done anything, but nobody asked him, and that he3 lives there for a period of, a long period of time. Here is a4 guy that is totally willing to talke. It is not like approaching5 somebody who doesn't want to talk to you or that might not want6 to talk to you. And here is a fellow who was a radar operator,7 experienced to some degree, and I don't know to what degree,8 but apparently the Russians don't know to what degree either,9 because nobody asked him, in a highly secret air base in Japan,10 but they didn't ask him even about that, and it is very rare11 to have one come.12 I have listened to Radio Free Cuba, where they air all13 kinds of propaganda, and this guy would have been certainly14 good for propaganda when he loved Russia and hated the United15 States. And I just, with those circumstances, I very frankly16 find it almost impossible to believe that they did not17 thoroughly interrogate him at least.18 Mr. Nosenko. They never considered him an interesting19 target. It was known that he served in Marine Corps.20 Mr. Sawyer. What I am getting at, how did they know21 whether he was an interesting target when they never even asked.22 Mr. Nosenko. They judging by what they know about him23 what in questionnaire he filled and plus what they found out24 from interpreter on him. He said to interpreter, he served25 in Marine Corps, he finished his years of service.NW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 74TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 74]
# TOP SECRET98Mr. Sawyer. But he might have been a cryptographer in the Marine Corps. He might have been as an enlisted man, he might have been a cryptographer and know all our codes and code methodology that might help break codes and that sort of thing, but nobody ever asked him. That is what I don't understand. And I can't believe it, very frankly.Mr. Nosenko. I understand, sir, but I am telling you he wasn't considered interesting target, and --Mr. Sawyer. But they didn't have any facts to know whether he was interesting, and here is a guy that wants to talk to them.Mr. Nosenko. But the judgment made on each person to work actively against him on the basis of his questionnaire. If in questionnaire will be said he is, let's say, professor, teacher, let's say he is working for the government, any department, but for the Federal Government, or he is an officer sure, on him will be paid attention.Mr. Sawyer. Well, all right, we can drop that for a minute.But now, he got a visa in two days in Finland. I happen to have been in Finland four years ago and wanted to get a visa, a sort of a last minute decision, to go to Leningrad, and I was told there is a minimum of 30 days before you can get a visa. Now, to issue him a visa in two days for Russia, that is very unusual, apparently, so they must have had some# TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 75]
TOP SECRET99interest in getting him there.Mr. Nosenko. Sir, what I know, there wasn't any interest to get him. He managed to get this visa.Mr. Sawyer. All right.The other thing I am curious about is when they interrogated you so carefully here, why someone like Oswald, a known defector and who could well have been now a Russian intelligence agent, comes back to the country, apparently CIA or FBI, or nobody paid a bit of attention to him, and let him wander around the country with a Russian wife at will.I have used up my time.The Chairman. Okay. The time of the gentleman has expired.Mr. Fithian.Mr. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.Mr. Nosenko, as I piece it together, there are four possibilities for this Committee to believe. Let me sketch out what those possibilities are.One, that you told the truth in 1964, but you are now misleading this Committee.Two, that you told an untruth in 1964, basically your statements in 1964 were not true, but you are telling the truth now.Three, that in fact you were dispatched here by the KGB, or the Soviet Government, because of apparent but unrealTOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 76]
# TOP SECRET100connections between the Soviets and Oswald and the assassination of President Kennedy. Obviously the USSR would need this for obvious reasons. They would badly need this for all sorts of international reasons.And finally, the fourth option is that you were dispatched here by the Soviet Government and the KGB because there was an actual connection between the KGB and the assassinationnof President Kennedy.These are the items which I have picked up in the last two days that would tend to lead some people to believe the last of the four, or at least the third to the last of the four, either that the KGB dispatched you here because they needed it for political reasons, though they were not involved, or they dispatched you here because in fact they did collaborate with Oswald.First, Oswald goes to Russia. You say he is rejected, but they grant him a pension, however small.Second, they grant him the pleasures of a hunting club, even though you said earlier he was mentally unbalanced, and you are allowing him to use a gun.Three, they allowed him to marry in Russia.Four, they gave him a job.Now, in not talking about the time when you were under stress and incarcerated, but just talking about the two months prior to that the FBI questioning, and the prearrestNW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 77# TOP SECRET