Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 0]
# 2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992## JFK Assassination System## Identification Form Date: 10/19/20## Agency InformationAGENCY: HSCARECORD NUMBER: 180-10131-10324RECORD SERIES : SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONYAGENCY FILE NUMBER: 014724## Document InformationORIGINATOR: HSCAFROM: NOSENKO, YURITO:TITLE: TESTIMONY OF YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKODATE: 06/20/1978PAGES: 141SUBJECTS: CIA, METHODOLOGYKGB, FILESKGB, METHODOLOGYMCMILLAN, PRISCILLA JOHNSONSOLIE, BRUCENOSENKO, YURI, TESTIMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEEOSWALD, LEE, RUSSIAN PERIODOSWALD, LEE, RUSSIAN PERIOD, DEFECTION TO RUSSIAMEXICO CITYDOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPTCLASSIFICATION: Top SecretRESTRICTIONS: ConsultedCURRENT STATUS: WithholdDATE OF LAST REVIEW: 08/21/1993OPENING CRITERIA :COMMENTS: Folder 2 of 2. Box 4
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CONTENTSTESTIMONY OF:YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO -- ResumedPAGE2EXHIBITS|         | Marked | Received || ------- | ------ | -------- || JFK F-2 | 10     |          || JFK F-3 | 11     |          || JFK F-4 | 18     |          || JFK F-5 | 24     |          || JFK F-6 | 32     |          || JFK F-7 | 49     |          |
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TOP SECRET1THOMAS,'srsretype smnpEXECUTIVE SESSIONTuesday, June 20, 1978U.S. House of Representatives,Select Committee on AssassinationsSubcommittee on the Assassinationof John F. KennedyWashington, D. C.The Committee met, pursuant to recess, at 6:20 o'clockp.m., in Room 1-D, Headquarters, Central Intelligence Agency,Langley, Virginia, the Honorable Louis Stokes (Chairman ofthe Committee) presiding.Present: Representatives Stokes, Preyer, Burke, Fithian, Devine and Sawyer.Also present: G. R. Blakey, G. Cornwell, M. Goldsmith, R. Morrison, E. Berning, M. Jackson, J. Smith, K. Klein and S. Brady.The Chairman. The Committee will come to order.At this time the Committee will resume its sitting. We are still in executive session by virtue of the resolution adopted by the Committee this past evening.At this time the Chair will recognize Mr. Blakey.Mr. Blakey. Off the record.TOP SECRET50955 DocId: 32277209 Page 3
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TOP SECRET(Discussion off the record.)The Chairman. Anything further?Bring the witness in.Let the record reflect that the Committee has resumed its sitting and at this time the witness, Yuri Nosenko, is back before the Committee once again.Mr. Nosenko, I admonish you that you are still under the oath that you took last night.TESTIMONY OF YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO -- ResumedMr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.The Chairman. And at this time, then, the Committee will recognize the counsel for the Committee, Mr. Klein.Mr. Klein. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.Good evening.Mr. Nosenko. Good evening, sir.Mr. Klein. You told us that after the assassination you had an opportunity to be present when Oswald's file was brought from Minsk, is that right?Mr. Nosenko. Absolutely right.Mr. Klein. Did you have an opportunity to read the entire file at that time?Mr. Nosenko. No, sir.Mr. Klein. How much of the file did you read?Mr. Nosenko. It was simply looking, page by page, first part of the first volume.
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# TOP SECRET3Mr. Klein. You went through the first part of the firstvolume, page by page?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.Mr. Klein. Did you go through any of the other volumes?Mr. Nosenko. No, sir.Mr. Klein. You told us that an officer named Matveevtook the file away to prepare a summary?Mr. Nosenko. Right.Mr. Klein. Do you know who wrote that summary?Mr. Nosenko. The summary was written by the FirstDepartment of the Second Chief Directorate.Mr. Klein. Do you know who, in particular?Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, I do not know.Mr. Klein. And did you ever have an opportunity to readthe summary that the First Department prepared?Mr. Nosenko. No, sir; I didn't see it.Mr. Klein. The Russian word "spravka", does that mean --Mr. Nosenko. Is summary, right.Mr. Klein. And why were you not able to read the summarythat they wrote?Mr. Nosenko. Well, the file was taken in the FirstDepartment. I was working in the Seventh Department.Mr. Klein. Did you make any attempt to read it?Mr. Nosenko. No.Mr. Klein. Was it at all unusual that with all your# TOP SECRET
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TOP SECRETinvolvement in the case you did not have an opportunity toread that file?Mr. Nosenko. It was the decision of the Chief of theSecond Chief Directorate, given big importance to this question,that a resume will be prepared by the most prestigious depart-ment, American Department, and that is why we couldn't even ask.Mr. Klein. You didn't even ask to see it?Mr. Nosenko. No.Mr. Klein. So it was not unusual that you were notallowed to see it?Mr. Nosenko. No, it was not unusual.Mr. Klein. You have testified before this Committee thatthe KGB did not allow Lee Harvey Oswald to defect because hewas uninteresting. You have testified the KGB did not even speakto Lee Harvey Oswald because he was uninteresting; and that youdecided he was not interesting without speaking to him.Do you know what year Lee Harvey Oswald came to the SovietUnion?Mr. Nosenko. 1959.Mr. Klein. In 1959, approximately how many Americanswanted to defect to the Soviet Union or requested permission todefect?Mr. Nosenko. There was a defectionist, I remember, oneof the employees, one of the workers, who was helping to or-ganize the American Exhibition in Moscow, Mr. Webster.TOP SECRET
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TOP SECRET5Mr. Klein. Without giving particular names, how many Americans would you say asked permission to defect in 1959?What would the number be?Mr. Nosenko. These two were known to me -- Oswald and Webster.Mr. Klein. From 1955 to 1960, what would be your best estimate as to how many Americans asked permission to defect to the Soviet Union?Mr. Nosenko. As far as I heard, there I think was one only.Mr. Klein. One other, meaning three altogether.Mr. Nosenko. One besides Oswald and Webster, what I know.Mr. Klein. Three?Mr. Nosenko. T hree.Mr. Klein. Of the three, was Oswald the only one turned down because he was uninteresting?Mr. Nosenko. Right...Mr. Klein. Do you know any other defector who was ever turned down because he was uninteresting?Mr. Nosenko. No.Allow me to tell, as you have seen, and you told yourselves, how many Americans are defected. It is a very rare occasion and KGB prefers defection when they are planning, they want, these types of defectors, they like and invite those people who canTOP SECRET
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# TOP SECRETgive them certain information which is valuable.Mr. Klein. Do you recall telling this Committee yesterday that up until 1960 the Seventh Department was recruiting left and right?Mr. Nosenko. Absolutely right.Mr. Klein. And that you recruited a woman in Utah who was --Mr. Nosenko. I simply had given example of this recruitment which took place up to 1960. When Seventh Department was recruitng and giving files to the Intelligence Service, First Chief Directorate, not asking them before, is it person will be for them valuable or not.Mr. Klein. And that KGB officers were getting bonus and promotions when they induced people to recruit?Mr.Nosenko. Right.Mr. Klein. And despite that, Lee Harvey Oswald, when he asked to defect, you turned him down without even speaking to him, to find out if he had any information; is that right?Mr. Nosenko. Sir, we had quite a few recruitments in '59, a very big amount of them in '59 very interesting, much, much more interesting -- professors and teachers -- and even was a co-op from CIA we had quite a few recruitments and Oswald was nothing on this base, on this foundation.Mr. Klein. Would the KGB have any interest in an American student?Mr. Nosenko. As I told you yesterday, KGB interested in# TOP SECRET
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# TOP SECRETstudents, but particularly those students who are studying the Russian language, Russian history, Russian economy.Mr. Klein. And would they have any interest in an American who had strong anti-American views and who was a professed Marxist? Would they have any interest in that kind of person?Mr. Nosenko. Here were are coming to a very interesting and sensitive question. From mid-1950, by the order of Central Committee Communist Party, Soviet Union, KGB was prohibited to make any approachment and recruitment of members of the Communist Party of the West.Mr. Klein. I am not asking about a member of the Communist Party.Mr. Nosenko. Your question is, and if he is some type of Marxist here, the question maybe he is possibly a member of Communist Party, and to check it for KGB very difficult if he is a member of Communist Party or not of his country.Mr. Klein. Would they ask him if he is a member of the Communist Party?Would they check it?Mr. Nosenko. No, they would not ask him.Mr. Klein. They wouldn't ask him?Mr. Nosenko. No.Mr. Klein. Would the Soviet Union be interested in someone who was in the military and worked with radar equipment?# TOP SECRET
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TOP SECRETMr. Nosenko. It depends. If he was corporal, private, is no big interest. If he was officer, maybe they would be interested.Mr. Klein. The fact that he worked with the equipment wouldn't be enough; they would want to know what his rank was?Mr. Nosenko. No, sir; it is not enough because they had sources.Mr. Klein. And in 1959 would the Soviet Union have been interested in someone who served as a radar operator on an air base where U-2s took off and landed?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir; it would be very interested.Mr. Klein. It is your testimony that Lee Harvey Oswald, who was a student, who was a professed Marxist, who had --Mr. Nosenio. Students? I never heard that he was a student.Mr. Klein. -- who had been a radar operator and had worked on a base from which U-2 airplanes took off and landed, that he wasn't even interesting enough for the KGB to speak to him, to find out if he knew any of this information?Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Klein, I understand your position, but we didn't know that he had any connection with U-2 flights. That is one thing.And if you, Mr. Klein, are basing on what was written by Mr. Epstein in the book, it is a little bit from the air taken ideas. Mr. Epstein even telling that how importantTOP SECRET
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TOP SECRETfor KGB to know about such base -- that base. We knew it in '50's when I worked in GRU at the Navy, in 1950, '51, '52.We knew every base and in Japan, at this Atsugi Base, and we knew what kind of airplanes had been. We didn't know about U-2, no. Sure, it is very interesting, but when Oswald applied, requested to stay in the Soviet Union, we didn't know a word about his knowledge, anything concerning U-2 flights.Mr. Klein. And you didn't ask him if he had any kind of information about that when he wanted to defect, is that correct?Mr. Nosenko. No.Mr. Klein. And you told us that one reason that no one was working on Oswald was because all of your people were concentrating on the American Exhibition in 1959, is that correct?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. Not only American Exhibition, there were other tourists and among them were interesting targets, very interesting targets.Mr. Klein. You told us yesterday that things didn't --Mr. Nosenko. I can explain you why, because an American Exhibition in Moscow was by the information which KGB had, I don't know how much it's right, how much it's wrong, but it was suspected quite a number of people from American intelligence community who were working on American Exhibition in Moscow, and when the work is going on against such targets,TOP SECRET
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# TOP SECRETit is not one officer, it is a big amount of people involved on each case, because it is very serious target.Mr. Klein. Do you know what date Lee Harvey Oswald came to the Soviet Union?Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, I do not.Mr.Klein. Mr. Chairman, I would ask that this document be marked for identification and shown to the witness.The Chairman. Without objection.(The document referred to was marked as JFK Exhibit No. F-2 for identification.)Mr. Klein. Looking at this document --Mr. Nosenko. Right.The Chairman. Did counsel want to identify for the record how the document has been marked?The Clerk. JFK-F-2.Mr. Klein. Looking at this document, does it say on the top "Visa and Registration Office, Interior Department, Executive Committee of the Moscow City Council"?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.Mr. Klein. Do you recognize that type of document?Mr. Nosenko. Yes. It is from Department of giving Visas and Registrations, which is working under auspices of Directorate of Internal Affairs of Moswcow City.?Mr. Klein. And does this appear to be an authentic# TOP SECRET![page 12 logo]
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TOP SECRETdocument, an authentic copy of the document?Mr. Nosenko. Sure.Mr. Klein. Looking at Number 8, does it say whatdate Lee Harvey Oswald came to the Soviet Union for the firsttime?Mr. Nosenko. October, 1959.Mr. Klein. October what?Mr. Nosenko. October 16, 1959.Mr. Klein. I would ask that this document be marked foridentification, Mr. Chairman.The Chairman. Without objection.Would the clerk indicate for the record?The Clerk. JFK-F-3, Mr. Chairman.(The document referred to wasmarked as JFK Exhibit No. F-3for identification.)Mr. Klein. Looking at the newspaper article clipping, onthe right hand side, with the heading "U.S. Fair in SovietJammed at Close," do you see that?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.Mr. Klein. And what is the date of that story?Mr. Nosenko. The date is September 4.Mr. Klein. Are you aware of the fact that the AmericanExhibition ended on September 4, more than a month beforeOswald came to the Soviet Union?TOP SECRET
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# TOP SECRETMr. Nosenko. Mr. Klein, I would like you to ask when Americans who were working for this Exhibition left Moscow.Mr. Klein. I will ask you another question. Yesterday, when I asked you if things got back to normal once the fair ended, did you say yes?Mr. Nosenko. No, till they were leave the Soviet Union. No. They are the same targets. Okay, you are right, it is closed September 4th, but does it change the importance of these people against whom KGB was working? They were still in Moscow.Mr. Klein. Do you recall yesterday my asking you, did things in your department get back to normale once the fair ended, and do you recall saying yes?Mr. Nosenko. Well, I meaning fair ended when left all the people involved in work on American Exhibition, Americans when they left, and they were staying quite a long time after it was closed. It was closed for visits for Soviet citizens, but it took quite a time for them to leave.Mr. Klein. You also testified yesterday that Lee Harvey Oswald was allowed to stay in the Soviet Union after he said that he was going to kill himself if they sent him home. You told us that he slashed his wrists and two psychiatrists examined him and both found him mentally unstable.Mr. Nosenko. Right.Mr. Klein. What was the point of having the two# TOP SECRET
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# TOP SECRETpsychiatrists examine him?Mr. Nosenko. I think simply to be assured that it was right found decision, concerning this person. Two independent.Mr. Klein. After they examined him, the decision was made to let him stay; is that correct?Mr. Nosenko. It is not because of the examination he was allowed to stay, Mr. Klein. You are a little bit mixing things. He was allowed to stay because KGB and Soviet Government had come to the conclusion if this person will kill himself it will bereaction in newspapers, which can in any way hurt the starting, the warming of Soviet-American relations.Mr. Klein. The Soviets were worried he would kill himself in the Soviet Union?Mr. Nosenko. Right, if they would not allow him to stay.Mr. Klein. Could the KGB have taken him and put him on the next plane out of Russia and thereby ended their whole problem with Lee Harvey Oswald?Mr. Nosenko. It is a very sensitive question. He can jump out of car. If he decided, if he is mentally unstable, you don't know what he will do.Mr. Klein. Do you think the KGB didn't do that because they were worried he might jump out of the car or do something like that?Mr. Nosenko. Simply a mentally unstable person, they# TOP SECRET
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TOP SECRET14didn't want to go it on any such action.Mr. Klein. They would rather keep him in the SovietUnion?Mr. Nosenko. No, they would rather prefer they washed their hands, Mr. Klein; they are not making decision, KGB.In Soviet Union decisions are made by the Central Committee of the Communist Party, and General Secretary and Politburo, not by KGB. KGB a servant of the Politburo and Central Committee Communist Party.Mr. Klein.. Going by the facts as you have told them to this CommitteeMr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.Mr. Klein. -- why wasn't he put on a plane and sent back to America?Mr. Nosenko. KGB washed their hands. Then from Intourist it was given information Ministry of Foreign Trade; Ministry of Foreign Trade reported to the Soviet Government. As I said, I assumed the Chairman was surely asked; he told his opinion of the KGB, and up to the Soviet Government how they would decide.Mr. Klein. Could he have been brought to the U.S. Embassy and told them he is an American, "You take care of him; we don't want him"?Mr. Nosenko. It can be done, sure. It can be done, but it wasn't done.TOP SECRET
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TOP SECRETMr. Klein. Instead they elected to allow him to stayindefinitely in the Soviet Union and they have to worry abouthim every single day, what an unstable American would do, isthat correct?Mr. Nosenko. They didn't allow, KGB didn't allow. Sovietgovernment allowed.Mr. Klein. The facts as you have testified to them arethat the KGB allowed this mentally unstable person to stayin Russia, and they sent him to Minsk to live and work in aradio factory. Then the KGB allowed this mentally unstableindividual to marry a Soviet woman, and then this mentallyunstable individual was allowed to join a hunting club wherehe had access to a gun.Can you think of any other cases in all the time youworked in the KGB where a mentally unstable person wastreated in thiskind of manner?.Mr. Nosenko. I told you I do not know any other casesof mentally unstable, excluding one code clerk, American, wasalso mentally ill; he was delivered in Soviet Union. I heardit. I never have worked with him, I never have seen him.And the thing is, I am sorry, but you are putting and stressinga number of questioning, and it sounds so peculiar. What doesit mean, KGB allow him to marry?Mr. Klein, in the Soviet Union there is by degree ofPresidium of Supreme Soviet U.S.S.R. a law allowing marriage ofTOP SECRET
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# TOP SECRET16Soviet citizens with foreign. A foreigner can marry a Soviet citizen, by the law. There is not a thing that KGB can in any way try not to give, not to make it possible, but this is in cases when the person who is marrying a foreigner worked in some sensitive place, let's say, in missiles, rocket industry production, was in process of any place of his work ing seeing classified material. In these cases, KGB will try to put different type of fences. But it is unlawful. In accordance with Soviet law, marriage is allowed; he doesn't need to ask permission of Soviet Government or anyone. And his wife, Marina, wasn't working in any place which was sensitive from the point of view of Soviet security.Mentally unstable it doesn't mean that he is raving mad; it is mentally unstable.Mr. Klein. You testified that not only was Oswald not spoken to when he first said he wanted to defect but even after the decision was made to allow him to remain in the Soviet Union, still nobody from the KGB spoke to him, is that correct?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.Mr. Klein. You also tetified to the extensive resources that were devoted to put physical and technical surveillance on Oswald. You told us the men involved, the time involved, the facilities involved?Mr. Nosenko. Right.Mr. Klein. Do you find great contradiction# TOP SECRET
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TOP SECRET 17Mr. Nosenko. No, sir.Mr. Klein. -- in the fact that, on the one hand, you put all these resources into following Oswald around, trying to see who he talked to and what he does and, on the other hand, you don't even have a person go and talk to him and ask him, "Tell us your background; tell us about yourself."Is there any contradiction?Mr. Nosenko. Even in the United States, yes, sure, for you, for me just now American citizens, yes, sure, but there, no.Mr. Klein. They don't talk to people there?Mr. Nosenko. They can talk and cannot to talk, but I don't see contradiction there. Anyone, any foreigner who will be staying, even if this defector not on his own, but, let's say, KGB pushed him to stay, to defect, he still will be watched and on him will be put this same type of work that was put on Oswald, not less.Mr. Klein. You talk about their society is different than ours. Is it unusual that they allow an American to defect and live there without ever questioning him, to ask him if he is an intelligence agent?Mr. Nosenko. On the contrary, no doubt, let's say he was intelligence agent, what he will tell them that he was sent with mission as intelligence agent? Why to scare him? Let him live how he wants. We will be watching him. HeTOP SECRET
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TOP SECRETwill show by his behavior, by his action.Mr. Klein. They purposely don't speak to him; is that your testimony?Mr. Nosenko. In this case they didn't speak with him because he didn't present interest for the KGB and because he was mentally unstable.Mr. Klein. You testified that you read the reports of two psychiatrists who examined Lee Harvey Oswald at the hospital after he cut his wrist, is that correct?Mr. Nosenko. Right.Mr. Klein. You said both found him mentally unstable?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.Mr. Klein. You told us in great detail how this decision was made to have these psychiatrists examine him.I would ask thaththis document be marked for identification.The Chairman. The clerk will identify for the record the number appearing on the document.The Clerk. It will be JFK-F-4.(The document referred to was marked as JFK Exhibit No. F-4 for identification. )Mr. Klein. Have you ever seen that document before?Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. I haven't seen it.Mr. Klein. Were you aware that the Soviet GovernmentTOP SECRET
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TOP SECRET1 provided certain documents to the Warren Commission in 1964?2 Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. I wasn't aware of this.3 Mr. Klein. Looking at that document in front of you --4 Mr. Nosenko. Right.5 Mr. Klein. -- is that a hospital record?6 Mr. Nosenko. Oh, yes, sure. It is a hospital record.7 Mr. Klein. And whose hospital record? Does it have a8 name on it?9 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. It is from Botkin Hospital.10 Mr. Klein. Whose name is it?11 Mr. Nosenko. Lee Harvey Oswald.12 Mr. Klein. Does it say what date he was admitted?13 Mr. Nosenko. Discharged, admitted 23rd, discharged14 28th.15 Mr. Klein. What year is that?16 Mr. Nosenko. October of 1959.17 Mr. Klein. And does it have on the bottom the diagnosis18 why he was in the hospital?19 Mr. Nosenko. Incised wound of one-third of the left20 forearm.21 Mr. Klein. And that date, October of 1959, is that when22 Oswald first came to the Soviet Union and cut his wrist?23 Mr. Nosenko. I cannot tell you dates, sir. I do not24 remember.25 Mr. Klein. You have in front of you the other documentTOP SECRET