Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 77]
TOP SECRET101. 1 story makes no sense.2 The rejection of Oswald's offer to defect makes absolutely3 no sense to me.4 Mr. Sawyer has just pursued that momentarily. I think that5 can be rejected by us, by reasonable people, prima facie. I see6 no reason to accept that part of your story whatsoever.7 The exposition, taking you off to worry about the exposi-8 tion, and so forth, was demonstrated a fraud.9 No reprisals against your family. Nobody was working10 against Oswald, you said, yet later on you said you had seven11 to eight large files, you only read the first portion of onefile.12 You said no KGB ever talked to Oswald regarding13 letting him defect. The reason you gave us for that was that he14 slashed his wrists and you concluded he was unstable. Yet prior15 to that discovery of his instability, you granted him a visa16 in two days and he asked to be permitted to defect prior to17 slashing his wrists, and therefore you had to make the decision18 prior to slashing his writs, prior to knowing that he slashed19 his wrist, that you were going to reject him. That doesn't20 hold water either.21 Finally, you said in your testimony American defection was22 very rare. All the more reason, if it only happens once every23 year or a couple of times a year, or three times between '5624 and '59, it is totally incredible to me that he would not have25 been interrogated. No reasonable person can believe that story.NW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 78TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 78]
# TOP SECRET102You said he was not interesting, you were not interested in him, the KGB rejected him. Despite that, you were "recruiting right and left all kinds of people to assist in the espionage operation."Now, all of these things, Mr. Nosenko, leads me to be very, very disturbed by your story because it simply just on the face of what you told us last night and tonight, can't possibly be true.In the first place, you remember too much now. You remember too much in the way of details after 15 years. Therefore, I have great difficulty accepting any of your story.We as a Committee of the United States Congress are charged with trying to assess what actually happened in the assassination of President Kennedy. That is the central story. You have not helped us very much. You have confused the issue. In fact, by your testimony you have led at least this member to wonder whether or not you are still working with the KGB.The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired...I will permit the witness to answer.Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Congressman said his opinion. Do you ask me any question?Mr. Fithian. I would just like to have you tell me why I shouldn't believe that you were dispatched here by the KGB, in the light of just the points I am making, in the light of the enormous differences, not in the CIA interrogation underNW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 79# TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 79]
# TOP SECRET1031 duress, but in the earlier period when you were not under that2 kind of duress. It doesn't wash with me.3 The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.4 Mr. Nosenko. Sir, if you want me to defend myself, I can5 say only one thing. I never done from the first day in the6 United States anything directed against this country. I tried7 before I has come, when I contacted '62 the CIA, and has come8 in '64, I tried to get as much as possible information. I9 am the source who told concerning existence of microphones in10 American embassy in Moscow. I am the man who have given, I11 don't know , 300 cases --12 Mr. Fithian. We are only concerned --13 * The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.14 Mr. Edgar.15 Mr. Edgar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.16 It is very hard to follow Mr. Fithian's comments because17 I would like to shift gears a little bit. BUt you indicated18 to our Chairman that you now act as a consultant to the CIA.19 Is that your only job?20 Mr. Nosenko. It is the only job.21 Mr. Edgar. In the course of acting as consultant to the22 CIA, do you have access to talking with CIA employees from time23 to time who contact you and who assist you and protect you and24 give you some of the direction for your consulting?25 Mr. Nosenko. Yes.
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 80]
TOP SECRET104Mr. Edgar. Have you ever been in a conversation with anyof the agents of the CIA about who might have been responsiblefor having you detained on April 4th,-9645Mr. Nosenko. No.Mr. Edgar. -- 1964.Mr. Nosenko. No.Mr. Edgar. You indicated earlier you thought it was a manby the name of Murphy.Mr. Nosenko. Murphy, Chief of Soviet, former Chief ofSuviet Russian Division, and Chief of Counterintelligence,former Chief of Counterintelligence of the CIA Mr. Angletonbecause it cannot without him be decided.Mr. Edgar. Do you know of any other KGB agents or otherdefectors who were held in those very same conditions?Mr. Nosenko. No, I do not know.Mr. Edgar. Were there any other prisoners held nearbythat you could hear or --Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, I was in solitary absolutelyconfinement, no prisoner, nobody I could see.Mr. Edgar. Yet you are still willing to be a consultantto the CIA?Mr. Nosenko. I am -- no. Sir, I am consultant only onthe base, on my knowledge what I know about counterintelligencework of the KGB.Mr. Edgar. Well, you have suggested to the Committee thatyour statements given to the CIA in 1964 cannot be considered
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 81]
TOP SECRET105reliable because the statements were given under duress, andprior to our recess a few moments ago you indicated that youfelt that the tapes and the FBI and the CIA interrogations of'64, '65, and '66 should not be considered as reliablestatements.Is that not correct?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, because I considered the whole arrestwas unlawful, without due process of law, illegal arrest,what was the finding as unlawful by Rockefeller Commission.Mr. Edgar. Thank you.You were held under those spartan conditions and youindicated that those statements would have to be unreliable.Now, I have three specific questions, then, to ask you.Have you ever told the CIA that these statements couldnot be considered reliable?Mr. Nosenko. Sure, when we started, they change thesituation, they moved me from spartan conditions, started totalk with me as a human being, to treat me as a human being.Mr. Edgar. Did you go on a point by point correction ofany of those statements you previously made?Mr. Nosenko. It wasn't in the form of simply returningto document, it was case by case, whatever concerns me, mybiography, my work, whatever cases I knew, whatever cases Iwas involved, all questions were raised by 20, 30 times eachcase, when it was reevaluation of all information given by me.NW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 82TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 82]
TOP SECRET 106Mr. Edgar. And it is your testimony that after 1967, '68, when those interrogations took place, you gave accurate, truthful statements?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, whatever and how good I recollect, at the best.Mr. Edgar. And those statements of '67-'68 should be considered by this Committee as the absolute truth?Mr. Nosenko. Right.Mr. Edgar. And nothing but the truth.Mr. Nosenko. Yes, yes, sir.Mr. Edgar. And it is clear to you that all the questions that were raised about Oswald were also raised in 1967 and '68?Mr. Nosenko. Everything was raised in this period.Mr. Edgar. If, then, this Committee discovers inconsistencies in your statements that you made in 1967 and '68, after your incarceration and the illegal period that you talk about, if we find inconsistencies between that statement and the statements you gave us last night and tonight, which should we believe?Mr. Nosenko. Sir, if -- you must believe -- not you must it is up to you what you believe. But, sir, let's say was read to me by Mr. Klein a question, that I said when I said concerning Oswald, I did not mention physical surveillance. It is a big operation. It is nothing big in the KGB to put under surveillance Soviet or foreigner, or to control telephone conversations
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 83]
TOP SECRET107or correspondence. I could maybe something miss, you see, when I mentioning. I do not have such a brilliant, brilliant mind that immediately like photographic memory, immediately return word and word. I simply was describing that it wasn't active work, that there wasn't planned recruitment, there wasn't planned approachment, contact. There was type of passive work which is called in KGB to watch him and what is it, agents, control of correspondence, and explaining this, I simply, I could miss that he was under surveillance.You can return to this and tell me, uh-huh, you told in '67 you didn't mention that he was under surveillance. It is not a contradiction.The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.Mr. Nosenko, in reply to Mr. Sawyer's question, you indicated you were paid for the period of time that you were under arrest, that it was a lump sum payment I suppose?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir.The Chairman. What amount of money was that?Mr. Nosenko. Something about, oh, about $80,000..The Chairman. About $80,000?Mr. Nosenko. Yes.The Chairman. Any other sum in addition to that were you paid?Mr. Nosenko. I think I received about $15,000 or $20,000 when I started on my own to live, to buy furniture. I received,NW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 84TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 84]
TOP SECRET108yes, in the beginning, in '69, in April. But this lump Ireceivedd in '70, '71. '71.The Chairman. So that the record is clear, you received $80,000 for the period of time you were under arrest.Mr. Nosenko. Right.The Chairman. In order to get started again, you ve re given an additional $15,000, and that was in 1969.Mr. Nosenko. Right.The Chairman. Since 1969, to the present time, you have received $35,000Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no, sir.The Chairman. Would you --Mr. Nosenko. They started, when they released me they started to pay me in the beginning $16,000. Then they raised each year, $2000, two and a half thousand were raises. I only received $35,000 this year, '78, from October of '77, approximately.The Chairman. From October '77 to the present time you received $35,000..Mr. Nosenko. Right.The Chairman. Can you give us some indication of how many days you have worked during 1978?Mr. Nosenko. Well, I am working at home besides coming here when they needme, at least twice a month, and spending a week, approximately, Besides traveling when they areTOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 85]
# TOP SECRET1091 sending me the last few years abroad to talk with friendly2 intelligence services. I am also working at home on my own.3 I am studying Soviet periodicals, Soviet magazines, Soviet4 newspapers. I am making certain researches, I am trying not to5 lose what is going on, what changes taking place in policy.6 The Chairman. Would it be fair to say that you sort of7 set your time and that no one else sets your time?8 Mr. Nosenko. When I am out of this area, yes, at home,9 I am myself setting time.10 The Chairman. And during the last year, how many weeks11 would you say you have spent here at the Agency?12 Mr. Nosenko. Not at the Agency. They are meeting me in13 other places. I am very rare visiting this place, only if they14 invite me for a lecture or about KGB counterintelligence. But15 I am meeting them when I am in this area, under certain16 conditions, in certain places where they need me.17 Well, one month, twice I am coming. Let's say I am18 spending about 12, 13 days a month here, it can be in some19 cases seven, eight days a month, but in main the last period20 of time I am coming, the last years, I am coming almost21 twice a month.22 The Chairman. For how long?23 Mr. Nosenko. For a week, five, six days.24 The Chairamn. My time has expired.25 Mr. Preyer?NW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 86# TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 86]
TOP SECRET110Mr. Preyer. Mr. Nosenko, your testimony has been considered a major piece of evidence, and was so considered by the Warren Commission as rebutting any Russian connection with the assassination of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I think the key part of your testimony that we are concerned with, not so much the question about any inconsistencies in it, but are you right on the big question, namely, was Lee Harvey Oswald a KGB agent?I want to mention, I have been a little surprised by your testimony, bythe gaps in your knowledge of Oswald, and really how little you knew about him. For example, when he went to Minsk, he was tranferred out of your oversight, I take it, and as I understood you, you did not know he was married until later on, and did not know he had gone back to the United States.Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Congressman, if I was staying and working '60 and '61 period in the same Seventh Department which sent file on Oswald in Minsk, I would know, but I was working in First American Department.Mr. Preyer. Right. Now, I am not questioning you about that. The question I wonder, that that brings to my mind is, if Oswald had been a KGB agent, are you certain you would have known it? In other words, if you didn't even know he was married, didn't even know he had gone to the United States, couldn't he have been a KGB agent in that period without your knowledge, or are you certainTOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 87]
TOP SECRET111Mr. Nosenko. No, I couldn't, you are absolutely right, I couldn't know. But in '63 when happened assassination of the President, when it was mentioned that Oswald shot the President, when it start, demanded the file back from Minsk, when started conversation with Minsk, started in KGB investigation, detailed approach. This is what --Mr. Preyer. So you convinced that seeing the first section--Mr. Nosenko. Seeing the first section in which the most important material in the whole file will be this in first section of the first volume.Mr. Preyer. Were the rest of the sections of that file, incidentally, wire -- telephone taps?Mr. Nosenko. It will be information from agents in second part. In third part will be from telephone conversations, from surveillance. In fourth part, photocopies of letters, different mail, when they checking Soviet connections, Soviet friends of Oswald.Mr. Preyer. Well, on this question of your knowledge of Oswald and being in position to know about him, you knew about the cablegram from Mexico yet you did not know he had gone back to the United States. Is that because you had moved to--Mr. Nosenko. Again, I returned in Seventh Department and I was working '62, '63, up to '64 in Seventh Department and the cablegram has come in Seventh Department. Seventh Department was started against Oswald in '59.NW 50955 DocId:32277209. Page 88TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 88]
TOP SECRET1121 Mr. Preyer. Have you read a lot about the Oswald case2 in recent years?3 Mr. Nosenko. Well, I read several books, what appeared.4 I only didn't read the last book which was written about Marina5 Oswald by Mrs. Priscilla Johnson. Why? Because I knew6 that I would appear here, that the staff of your -- your7 staff will be talking with me. I didn't wanted something to8 get -- I can, you know, mix what I knew and something to use9 what I got from the book.10 Mr. Preyer. I just wondered if you had read about the11 Mexican cable, and perhaps through the years may have been --12 Mr. Nosenko. No, I never have seen that it was mentioned13 Mexican cable. I have seen that he visited Mexico, in Mexico14 visited Soviet and Cuban embassies. This I have seen in books,I5 this fact.16 Mr. Preyer. If I have got one more moment, Mr. Chairman,17 to change the subject, one of the things that struck me is18 that when you defected, as Mrs. Burke mentioned, in Geneva,19 in 1964, very shortly after the Kennedy Assassination, I get20 the impression that the CIA or American forces to whom you21 defected, did not have much to say about the assassination or22 was not -23 Mr. Nosenko. They are -- I mentioned must be Oswald, the24 asked. But they were asking different, whatever cases I can25 immediately give them, names, when recruited, his position,TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 89]
TOP SECRET1131 from what country, this they were interested, as much as possible2 to take this type of information. They asked me about Oswald.3 I told them what I knew.4 The Chairman The ;time of the gentleman has expired.5 Mr. Devine.6 Mr. Devine. I don't want to know where you live, but7 do you reside in the general area of the nation's capital?8 Mr. Nosenko. I was living in this area up to 19 -- middle9 of 1973, but FBI gentlemen -- I didn't mention , I also meeting10 FBI people when I am here, not only CIA, but they are not paying11 me anything. FBI people inform me that they have information12 that KGB trying to locate me.. Then it happened in the area13 where I was living in Maryland up to 1973, I was in a14 shopping center, and on me was coming a Soviet from KGB. I knew15 his face, and this whole -- I immediately reported this and16 we decided that for me better to move from the area where17 Soviet diplomats, KGB officer working under cover of diplomatsare freely traveling and can spot me.18 Mr. Devine. That person didn't recognize you?19 Mr. Nosenko. I immediately turned and went, turned my back20 and went in another direction.21 Mr. Devine. Have you been contacted or in touch with22 anyone from the Soviet Embassy here in Washignton?23 Mr. Nosenko. Only in 1964, the Soviet Embassy in24 Washington demanded to see me after defection.25TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 90]
# TOP SECRET114Mr. Devine. Did you see them?Mr. Nosenko. Yes, in the State Department, in presence of American diplomats, I have seen for five, say seven minutes, Consul from Soviet Embassy and interpreter, another diplomat.Mr. Devine. What did they want with you?Mr. Nosenko. They ask me how could I do it, and do I understand the importance of this thing, that I defected from the country, and I said, gentlemen, nobody pushed me on this question, it is absolutely my own decision, and decision of free will, which I made long ago, and without any return. Then they told me now we know how to treat you, and what do you think about your Soviet citizenship.I said, it's automatically, I am rejecting it. I do not need. And on this I finished conversation.Mr. Devine. They made no threats of reprisals against your family back there?Mr. Nosenko. No, no. They later only, Mr. Congressman, they later sent two letters, one from wife and another from my mother. These letters were delivered by them. They visited American embassy in Moscow and had left these two letters. These letters were sent by American embassy in Moscow to State Department, State Department had given to CIA, CIA had given me these letters. I answered one short note that my decision is final, decision ideological and in spite of allNW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 91# TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 91]
TOP SECRET115my love to the family, and in spite of my respect to thememory of the father, I can repeat that if he was alive I wouldalso would do the same, that is all.Mr. Devine. Getting back to one of Mr. Stoke's questionsabout the amount of money paid to you for your years ofincarceration, the fact that they gave you $15,000 or $20,000which you used for furniture and so forth, were there anystrings tied to either of those funds, the $80,000 or the subse-quent amount?Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, no.Mr. Devine. That you would not contact the press oranybody else about this?Mr. Nosenko. No, it never was mentioned, never.Mr. Devine. No strings attached?Mr. Nosenko. No.Mr. Devine. Finally, do you have any knowledge of anyconnection with Oswald and the assassination of PresidentKennedy?Mr. Nosenko. No, sir.Mr. Devine. From your connections in the KGB at that time?Mr. Nosenko. Whatever I said, nothing more. I do notknow anything.The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired.Mrs. Burke.Mrs. Burke. I have just a few random questions. YouTOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 92]
# TOP SECRET116mentioned Priscilla Johnson's book. Did you by any chance while you were working in the American tourist area, did you have any occasion to investigate her coming to Russia or did she come during any of that time as a student?Mr. Nosenko. Priscilla Johnson?Mrs. Burke. Yes.Mr. Nosenko. Why, yes, her name, she was a correspondent in Moscow working, and KGB didn't like her dispatches and they made very, very rude operations against her. They --Mrs. Burke. What did they do.Mr. Nosenko. Huh?Mrs. Burke. What did they do to her?Mr. Nosenko. Well, they wanted to get rid of her from the Soviet Union. They didn't see possibility to recruit her. They didn't see any possibility to find or to create compromising situation. They didn't like her dispatches which they were anti-Soviet. Then they decided to get rid of her, and they made such an operation in restaurant where she had dinner in evening. They put drugs in her liquor, which she was drinking, wine or vodka or whatever it would be, and she was absolutely drunk. And she was delivered in local regional, one of the regional little -- it's not clinic, it is where they deliver drunks to spend night. And they put her there and made photo pictures of her being drunk and other women drunk laying there and published an article and put even a picture. And surelyNW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 93# TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 93]
TOP SECRET1171 she was immediately recalled by her agency or her newspapers for2 which she was working.3 Mrs. Burke. Do you think that is the wrong Priscilla4 Johnson?5 Mr. Edgar. If the gentlewoman would yield, are you sure6 that you are talking about the same person?7 Mr. Nosenko. Priscilla Johnson, yes, this correspondent,8 yes.9 Mrs.Burke. Let me ask you one other question.10 When she was there, did she interview Oswald?11 Mr. Nosenko. I know it is now reading here the books. I12 didn't know that she interviewed. I only found out it with13 living in the United States, with reading books.14 Mrs. Burke. That she interviewed him. That didn't show15 in your file?16 Mr. Nosenko. I didn't read her book -- this is what in17 some other books mentioned that she had interviewed him.18 Mrs. Burke. Let me ask again about Oswald in Minsk, and19 first of all, can American tourists go to Minsk easily?20 Mr. Nosenko. Minsk is open city, yes.21 Mrs. Burke. It is an open city now. Was it an open22 city then?23 Mr. Nosenko. Yes.24 Mrs. Burke. And when he was there, of course, I realize25 that you don't know and you did not keep up with what he wasNW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 94TOP SECRET
[180-10131-10324.pdf — page 94]
TOP SECRET1181 doing there, but in reading that file, in the first few2 pages or anything, did you notice anything in terms of his3 contacts with Americans, or did you notice anything at all4 that was extrardoinary about him?5 Mr. Nosenko. No, there wasn't. For the whole his period6 of time there wasn't found any indication on suspicion,7 suspicious meetings or anything suspicion concerning his contacts8 with Americans.9 Mrs. Burke. Let me -- As I understand it, it was fairly10 routine that everyone's phone would be tapped, so that that11 was not --12 Mr. Nosenko. Yes.13 Mrs. Burke. -- your information that that would be14 nothing unusual.15 You know, there is one thing that is bothering me, and16 that is the inconsistency and the greater detail that is present17 today than in your earlier statements.18 Could you give us an explanation of why there is more de-19 tail today?20 For instance, in your earlier statements I noticed you21 refer to the interpreter as a tourist, the tourist guide, as22 just a tourist guide or an interpreter? Today you referred23 by name to that person. And again, the two psychiatrists --24 Mr. Nosenko. I don't know even now name of this inter-25 preter. I do not remember name.NW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 95TOP SECRET