Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[178-10002-10091.pdf — page 9]
## SECRET1 There are no more paramilitary operations, that type of thing.2 Q But there are some Cuban operations being run out of3 the Washington area?4 A Right.5 Q Is that correct?6 A Right. Worldwide.7 Q Mr.Sturbitts, in the last couple of weeks you may8 have seen some allegations in the press about possible assassina-9 tion attempts that have been mounted or alleged assassination10 attempts that have been mounted --11 A Right.12 Q -- against Fidel Castro. In the course of your13 activities with respect to Cuba, did you ever learn of any such14 attempts?15 A Well, let me answer it this way. I wouldn't say16 attempts. I know there was discussion. "Attempts" is too17 strong a word.18 Q Well, can you place in time your first knowledge of19 any such discussions?20 A Well, the first knowledge I had of any discussions,21 I was on TDY and this was October, November, 1963, with Fitzgerald22 in Paris. And I knew that he was going to meet -- let me put23 it another way. I had overheard that discussions were going on24 with a member of Castro's military but that he wanted, as25 I recall, he wanted some British -- I mean Belgian rifles andSECRET> Photocopy from> Gerald Ford LibraryNW 50955 DocId: 32204971 Page 10
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SECRET1 a telescopic sight.2 Q Who wanted them?3 A This military guy that was in Fidel's -- I think at one time he was a commandante. Now, I knew that was going on. I didn't participate in it because I was there for another reason. And I know that subsequent to that time that Fitzgerald met with him again and as I recall, as the personal representa- tive of the Attorney General, Bobby Kennedy.9 I provided all those files. There are 19 volumes that we gave to your people. But I don't know who was reviewing them. I think Belin was going to do it himself.12 Q Yes. He is. He is doing it himself.13 You said there were 19 volumes of documents with respect to this.15 A 19 files, manila.16 Q All having to do with possible assassination?17 A All having to do with this whole time period and --18 can we go off the record for a minute?19 (Discussion off the record.)20 BY MR. MANFREDI:21 Q The first knowledge of such conversations that you had, I take it you obtained on a trip to Europe with Mr. Fitzgerald?24 A I simply overheard it, that is right.25 Q And who were the parties to the conversation you over-SECRETPhotocopy from Gerald Ford Library
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Phone (Arca 202) 544-60001 heard?2 A A fellow named Nestor Sanchez.3 Q And Mr. Fitzgerald?4 A Yes, and I really can't recall some of the other5 people. We were -- we had just moved the Station at that time,6 in Paris, out of the Embassy into the old Rothschild Palace7 and we felt that it was probably bugged, so all conversations8 took place -- we walked around the garden and tyat type of9 thing, and, you know, I was walking with somebody, somebody10 was in front of me, and you just overhear conversations.11 Q This was in Paris?12 A Yes.13 Q I see.14 Mr. Sanchez -- was he a member of the military?15 A No. Mr Sanchez was in the Special Activities Staff.16 He was stationed in Washington. And he was in contact with17 Cuban military-type.18 Q Was it your understanding that the Agency had received19 instructions with respect to this activity from another20 component of the Government?21 A Well, let me put it this way. I don't know whether22 they received instructions. I have to assume, and I am pretty23 positive, that this was a result of a Special Group decision.24 And at this time you have to remember that Bobby Kennedy was25 overseeing this deal, presumably for his brother, and he wasNW 50955 DocId:32204971 Page 12Photocopy fromGerald Ford LibraryWARD & PAUL
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SECREI1 part of that Special Group. He called the meetings, he presided,2 he did a number of things.3 Q Were there any other occasions that you can recall4 in which the possibility or the subject of assassination of5 Fidel Castro was discussed?6 A No, not really.7 Q You referred to this as the first occasion.8 A This is the first --9 Q Was there a second?10 A -- the first time I knew about it or even heard it11 discussed.12 Q Well, prior to the investigation that is currently13 underway -- I am referring now to our Commission's investigation14 -- were there any other occasions in which this subject came15 to your attention after this discussion in the garden in16 Paris?17 A The only other thing that came to my attention was18 that the decision was made not to provide him with this sight19 that he wanted. Whether that is right or wrong, I don't know,20 but that is what I was told.21 Q When did you learn that?22 A Oh, I would assume in -- must have been early 1964,23 around February, something like that.24 Q Off the record.25 (Discussion off the record.)
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MR. MANFREDI: On the record.BY MR. MANFREDI:Q Mr. Sturbitts, are you familiar with a gentleman by the name of Frank Sturgis?A Indeed.Q Is your familiarity based on what you have read in the press?A No. It is what is contained in the files.Q Have you caused a search to be made of CIA files, particularly the files of the Western Hemisphere Division, in an attempt to determine whether Mr. Sturgis ever had any connection with the Agency?A I have.Q What were the results of that search?A Absolutely no connection, never has been.Q When we talk about connection, are we talking about an employment relationship?A That is what I am speaking of.Q Was Mr.Sturgis ever an independent contractor of the Agency?A No.Q Was he ever a contract employee?A No.Ω Was he ever a regular employee of the Agency?A No.
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# SECRET1. Q Was he ever hired to do any piecework for the2. Agency?3. A Not to my knowledge.4. Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Sturgis ever partici-5. pated in any type of paramilitary or other operation against6. Cuba?7. A On his own behalf he did, not on behalf of this8. Agency.9. Q How did you learn of those operations?10. A Through the newspaper. And through FBI reports.11. Q Now, are these recent FBI reports?12. A Oh, no. These go back -- I know at one time, the13. thing that comes to mind, I think he made a leaflet drop14. over Cuba and this was subsequently reported in the press and15. by the Bureau office in Miami.16. Q Do you know who financed his activities?17. A I have no idea.18. Q Is it possible that Mr. Sturgis' activities were19. indirectly financed by the Agency through --20. A I don't see how. Frank Sturgis is a soldier of21. fortune: has been. He has constantly tried to associate himself22. with the Agency. When I went through his file they wanted me23. to classify the file and the way I classified it was "don't24. destroy it, he is an intelligence nuisance."25. Q Off the record.
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(Discussion off the record.)MR. MANFREDI: On the record.BY MR. MANFREDI:Q Have you caused the Agency records with respect to Mr.Sturgis to be assembled in any one location?A Yes. Ihave custody of them.Q And what is the volume of that material?A As I recall, there are five volumes. Your Committeecalled for them the other day after the article in the paper,I guess it was last Saturday. They called for them Monday andthey returned them Monday afternoon.Q Do you know who examined those files?A No, I don't.Q You indicated a moment ago that Mr. Sturgis contactsthe DCD office in Miami with some frequency, is that correct?A Well, not great frequency but he does with tidbitsof so-called information.Q Is this information limited to narcotics, allegednarcotics traffic?A Recently it has been.Q Has Mr. Sturgis been encouraged by the DCD officein Miami?A Mr. Sturgis has been told by the DCD office in Miamito take his information to the Drug Enforcement Agency or theFBI.
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SECKETQ Do you know whether or not they consider him an established contact?A No manner.Q Do they have any -- do they periodically seek to collect information from Mr. Sturgis?A I can't speak to that but the records that we have don't reflect anything like that. Before they would contact somebody in that context, knowing that there is a 201 file on Sturgis, they would have to coordinate with the Latin American Division before they did anything since we do hold the file.Q Would you briefly explain what a 201 file is?A A 201 file is a personnel file. It consists of any information relating to an individual appearing in the press as a result of other agency reporting and that type of thing..Q Personnel or personality file?A Personality file, I should say. Excuse me.Q Do you know whether or not there is any connection or relationship between Eugenio Martinez and Mr. Sturgis?A Well, I will say this. Obviously, they do know each other. They have to know each other from their days in Cuba.Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Sturgis ever participated with Martinez in raids against Cuba?A No. As I recall, we employed Martinez around 1961,SECRETPhotocopy from Gerald Ford Library
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# SECRETI guess, and he was in our maritime activities. He was a boat captain eventually. And he did participate in infiltrations and exfiltrations and perhaps one or two raids, hit and run, sabotage-type actions against Cuba. Sturgis never engaged in any of these things. He never did it for us nor did he ever do it on any of our boats, planes, or -- anything that belongs to the Agency.Q When Martinez would run such an operation or captain a boat on such an operation, would he be charged with putting together his own crew?A No. He had an assigned crew and every boat had a Case Officer operating either out of the -- probably out of the Miami Station. Sometimes I would assume that we did have some people in the Key West base. But he, Martinez, would receive his instructions and briefings from his Case Officer.Q So it is likely that he could have brought Sturgis along on any of these operations?A Absolutely unlikely. Oh, the guy whose name I was trying to think of, Chief of Station, John Dimmer.Q And that would be for a period of time between Shackley and Henze?A Yes.Q 1964 to 1966?A Something like that.Q Would you describe briefly for me the nature of the# SECRETPhotocopy from Gerald Ford Library
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SECRET17activities conducted by the Special Activities Staff duringyour -- and subsequently the Cuban Operations Group duringyour 9-year tenure with those groups.A Well, there was -- it was an across-the-boardintelligence operation consisting of collection of foreignpositive intelligence, counterintelligence, paramilitaryactivities, covert action, economic activities. That is aboutthe breadth of the thing.Q Now, these were all conducted through the DDO?A Right.Q Now, let's speak for a moment about the paramilitaryoperations. Were these operations run out of southernFlorida?A Right.Q And in particular out of the Miami Station?A Yes.Q Were there any other CIA facilities in that area ofthe country that participated in these activities?A Not to my knowledge..Q Were there any southern harbors other than Miamithat were used in these activities?A Well, we had activities down in the Keys also. AsI said, we did have a Key West base.Q Were there any other bases in that area of thecountry that were utilized in these operations?SECRETPhotocopy fromGerald Ford Library
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1 A Well, not that I would call a base. We did havetraining facilities for the UDT teams.3 Q What is a UDT team?4 A Underwater demolition.5 Q Where were those bases located?6 A I frankly don't know. They were down along the Keys,7 along that long peninsula going down there. There were a8 number of sites. I really can't recall them.9 Q Were there any other sites within the United Statesin which paramilitary training was conducted, for peopleparticipating in these activities?12 A Not to my knowledge.13 Q Where were these people trained?14 A What do you mean?15 Q Well, Cubans who participated in these activities.16 A We trained them at these places we had in the Keys.17 Now, there also -- some of them were brought up here and trained18 at the Domestic Training Station.19 Q Where is that located?20 A That is down in Virginia.21 Q Were any CIA personnel actually involved in these22 raids?.23 A Occasionally, I would think that -- you have got to24 understand at this time that we had a great many contract25 employees, independent contractors and this type of thing.
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SECRET1 Most of the paramilitary operations and the training was2 conducted by the Special Operations Group which is another3 entity of the --4 Q DDO?5 A DDO.6 Q Now, the facilities that we have been talking about,7 training facilities, were manned, then, by the Special8 Operations Group, or at least supervised by the Special9 Operations Group, is that correct?10 A Well, supervised, yes, and I would think that probably11 some of the training was given by their people. The Domestic12 Training Station is under the Office of Training and -- but I13 would think that in the paramilitary field that the SOG would14 probably staff the training facility with their people who have15 the expertise in paramilitary operations.16 Q Now, were the people that were being trained at17 these facilities basically Cuban refugees?18 A Yes.19 Q And at the outset I take it not many of those people20 were American citizens?21 A No.22 Q Or had become American citizens.23 A I would assume a great many have.24 Q By this time.25 A By this time, yes.Photocopy fromGerald Ford LibrarySECRET
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SECRET20Q At the present time, how large is that Cuban community in Miami? Do you have any idea?A Well, it is extremely large. I would think it is probably -- I was trying to think. I would say up towards a military people.Q You spoke about paramilitary operations and covert action. How do you distinguish between those two categories of activities?A Well, actually one can fall into the other. The paramilitary could fall into covert action but in those days we did distinguish somewhat. A lot of the covert action was media placement. We had a number of operations at -- legal-type operations, harassment operations. For instance, Fidel seized a great many art treasures and in particular he had a Napoleonic collection which was supposed to be the finest in the world that he sold to dealers in Europe. He had paintings that were immensely valuable that he tried to have auctioned in London and the London auctioneer would not accept them because he obviously didn't have clear title to them. He was forced to auction them in Toronto, Canada.We ran legal operations, got the owners and had them hire attorneys and bring them to court and this type of thing.He seized these race horses. He tried to peddle them in Europe and up in Canada. We ran opposition against thatSECRETPhotocopy from Gerald Ford Library
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# SECRET211 type of thing.2 Q These were what you considered to be covert operations?3 A Yes, covert action.4 Q Now, this is what you were referring to, legal- type operations?5 A Yes.6 Q You used legal process to harass Castro.7 A Yes.8 Q What other types of harassment activities did you run that would fall under this covert action category?9 A Well --10 Q Would economic warfare be --11 A That was sort of something separate unto itself.12 This was -- the economic warfare aspect of this thing was a decision of the Special Group to enforce an economic blockade.13 Q What special group is that?14 A It is now called the Forty Committee.15 Q Is that 302 Committee?16 A Well, it was a 302 at one time, too. First of all, it was called the Special Group, CI, Counterinsurgency. Then it went to the 302 and then it had another name in between there and now it is the Forty Committee.17 Q All right. We will return to that a little bit later, but what other types of harassment were you running against Castro --Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library# SECRET
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SECRET221 A This is what I was trying to think of.2 Q -- that would be considered covert action?3 A Well, as I say, a lot of propaganda, press placement,4 media placement. It has been so long ago I really don't5 remember. I know we had a number of things going against him.6 We used suasion, moral suasion, otherwise. We did some7 extra-legal things. We tried to get to his sources of supply,8 particularly when they were countries that we had treaties9 with, NATO countries, Canada, this type of thing.10 Q Let's talk about each of those in turn. You said11 you used moral suasion. What kind of activities are you12 referring to?13 A Well, in the moral suasion field we -- actually, we14 were the catalyst in this whole thing and we had the legal15 activities, the legal -- well, I don't know how you would16 phrase it, but we operated under the Cuban access control17 regulations of the Treasury Department, the Trading with the18 Enemy Act, and we also used the facilities of the Department of19 Commerce, the Export Control people.20 I guess as you are aware, Cuban industry was totally21 U.S.-oriented. As parts began wearing out and this type of22 thing, Castro had his little people there running around trying23 to place orders with subsidiaries of U.S. companies. Where24 we would find this out through all-source intelligence, we25 or the Treasury people or the Commerce people would go to theSECRETPhotocopy fromGerald Ford Library
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231 executives of these American companies and ask them to tell2 their foreign subsidiaries not to provide the spare parts3 and the other things that Castro might need. We had the4 Department of Commerce we identified 600 of the major U.S.5 companies that could provide spare parts for Cuban industry.6 We had the Department of Commerce send letters to those 6007 manufacturers and ask them to cooperate with them in denying8 any spare parts to the Cubans. This was a fairly concentrated9 effort to really isolate them.10 Q All right. And that is what you were referring to11 as moral suasion?12 A Yes.13 Q Anything else in that category?14 A Not really. None that I can think of.15 Q Did you make the same kind of efforts with foreign16 companies?17 A At one point we did but it was absolutely useless,18 the point in case being the Leyland buses. We pulled all stops19 to stop that sale. The British Government turned us down20 flat.21 Q Now, did you attempt to reach any other sources of22 supply?23 A Well, we also had what we call a preemptive purchasing24 program. If there was a single source of supply for a25: particular item we would go in and buy it to deny the Cubans
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SECRET1 the market.2 Q Would that then be re-sold somewhere on the domestic3 A Yes.4 Q -- domestic market?5 A No. It would be re-sold abroad.6 Q In all cases?7 A The cases that I was associated with, it was all8 sold abroad.9 Q What kind of purchases were made?10 A Well, we purchased at one point -- we purchased11 some Bright Stock in Antwerp.12 Q What?13 A Bright Stock.14 Q What is that?15 A Heavy, heavy oil, and since Cuba -- 85 percent of her energy comes from oil, this was considered a critical commodity. Bright Stock can be -- oh, it is almost like tar, melted tar, and it can be cut into additives, lubricants, this type of thing, and this was critical to the Cuban economy. So we had an oil firm purchase this Bright Stock from a dealer for which we reimbursed the guy and the Bright Stock was eventually sold in Africa.23 Q Do you know of any sales of such materials that were made within the United States? Resales, I should say.25 A No.[^1] Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library[^1]: Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
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Q In addition to preemptive buying were there any other actions taken by this group with respect to sources of supply to Cuba?A Well, we did provide through third country agents who got orders for Cuban goods, in collusion with the Commerce Department, and I would assume the Special Group, we had replacement parts manufactured that were substandard.Q And you had them sold through foreign companies?A Well, we had our agents get the Cuban orders all over Europe. Then they would come back and, as a matter of fact, the former Secretary of Commerce, who is on your Committee, Des. and I met him and he gave us the go-ahead to do this.Q Mr. Dillon?A No. He was Secretary of the Treasury.Q But --A But you must remember that these American --Q Mr. Connors?A Yes. But you must remember these American manufacturers, well, their places were nationalized and they were only too happy to work with us. And actually, it was a cash deal, bona fide business. These things were transshipped through two or three countries, finally wound up in Havana.Q You referred to some extra-legal activities.A Yes. That is what I was trying to think of, what we did. I just can't think -- I remember this was on one of
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our activities but I just can't think -- I remember this was on one of our activities but I just can't remember what the extra-legal was. I just can't remember what it was. I know it was one of the parts of the program.Q This was illegal activities? Is that what you are referring to?A Well, I wouldn't say they were illegal, but they weren't exactly legal, I don't think. Perhaps they were in a gray area some place.Q Well, whose laws are we talking about, international law, the laws of the United States?A I would have to go back and review the thing. I really can't remember this. I would have to go to the files.Q Where could we find that kind of thing in the files?A I would think probably down in the Records Center some place.Q Would it be possible to obtain that material some time during the lunch hour?A No. It is forty miles away.Q Well, is there some place in the building where you could refresh your memory?A Not to my knowledge. All that stuff has been shippedl.This is talking ll years ago, 12 years ago. All that material has been retired.Q What category of activity would we be talking about
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SECRET                                                                                                271 Q when we refer to extra-legal activities?2 A This is what I was trying to think of and I can't think of what it was. I know extra-legal activities was one parts of the program that we were involved in.5 I might have a chart in my safe downstairs that might tell me what that is.7 Q Well, let's make a note of that and we will have to come back to that.9 A All right.10 Q Who else would be knowledgeable about extra-legal activities that were run against Castro?12 A Well, the people that would be knowledgeable are probably retired and I was running the program. So I ran the economic program.15 Q Well, these are activities that were run in connection with the economic program?17 A Yes.18 Q We talked about media placement during this nine-year period. To what are you referring when you refer to media placement?21 A Well, stories or news items that perhaps our propaganda people wrote. We had them placed in newspapers and magazines throughout the world.24 Q Would this also include broadcasts over radio stations?SECRETPhotocopy fromGerald Ford Library
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SECRETA Oh, yes. Radio is a very big part of it.Q Now, were any of these newspapers or magazines published within the United States?A Not to my knowledge, no.Q These were essentially foreign publications?A Yes.Q Were any of them published in the Cuban community in Miami?A No. The intent was to get world opinion against Castro. You don't do that by publishing in the United States.Q What about the radio broadcasts? How were those handled?A Are you speaking of Radio Swan now?Q Well, I am unfamiliar with how many radio stations were involved. Was there more than one radio station?A No. We only had the one radio station but we did contract time with Florida stations, a station in New York.Q For broadcasts to what areas?A For broadcasts to Havana.Q And the station in New York, was that received also -- was that also broadcasting to various areas of the United States?A I have no idea. I don't know whether they used a particular frequency to get this out or whether they did it on short-wave or what they did.