Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[157-10014-10121.pdf — page 141]
Mr. Inderfurth. Just to be a devil's advocate for a moment, we don't want to insert then, using your language, Senator, the efforts to influence or subvert the results of a valid electoral process?Senator Mathias. That may be too short a leash.Mr. Inderfurth. But I think that's a question the Committee has to address. It would be a very short leash.Senator Huddleston. Well, there are different ways to influence and there may be a proper way to influence.Mr. Inderfurth. If there were a proper, then perhaps one could define the improper way, influencing by passing money, covert propaganda, and that type of thing.Mr. Kirbow. If the Committee's intention is after the person is elected and you don't want to prevent that kind of person being put into office by any means, then you do it here.If you do not intend as a committee to preclude using the press or using other things to influence the outcome of the election, then we should be solid on that and stay out of that area. But it's up to the committee to decide.Mr. Bader. This language speaks to subverting the results, not influencing the outcome.Mr. Kirbow. And he says that was his intent.Senator Huddleston. This does not preclude us from getting involved as we did in Italy.TOP SECRET
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Mr. Bader. Or in FormalSenator Huddleston. That's not a subversion of the process, that's an assistance.Senator Mathias. That's participation in the process.Mr. Inderfurth. What about after an election but prior to the formation of a coalition government?Senator Mathias. I would think that would be subverting if you get in there and say well we are worried about who these pecule have elected.I didn't know it was General Haig until this afternoon but I was aware that some American official had made a threat to Mitterand that he could be in trouble if he were pleated Prime Minister and attorented to bring some radical leftists into the French Cabinet.Now it seems to me that that is a threat to subvert the French electoral process and if in fact we carried out that threat I think that that would be prohibited by this language.Mr. Aaron. I take it the word subvert does to covert activities. In other words, if General Haig said that privately but didn't mean it in terms of covert action, he just said the United States government will ---Senator Mathias. I think the President of the United States or the Secretary of state or the Secreters of Defense micht very well stand up in front of television cameras and micht say. Look, if you put a corounist in the French CabinetTOP SECRET
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and under the parliament system you give him access toHATO's secrets, then there's going to be hell to pay.. and we're telling you right now.I don't think that's prohibited.But if we shadow men around and catch him in some compromising personal position and use the photographs to blackmail him. or anything of that sort --Mr. Bader. That's a covert action project.Senator Huddleston. There's no question that this whole matter of internal intervention in another country --Mr. Kirbow. Senator, whatever you say here is going to be one of the highest considerations given by the Full Committee.Senator Huddleston I feel there ought to be some restrictions and constraint on our interference in the internal operation of the government.Mr. Aaron. The next one. support for his beliefs or other internal security -- other security groups which engage in torture.Senator Huddleston. Don't we have some legislation to that effect?Mr. Aaron. There are amendments regarding foreign aid. Now this is open foreign aid. We're talking about covert assistance programs.Mr. dicenova. This doesn't make sense to us.![TOP SECRET]
[157-10014-10121.pdf — page 144]
Mr. Kirbow. Which guage in torture.Senator Mathias. Con I make a semantic suggestion here.that we try to bring this in line with the language in the Constitution. cruel and purual punishment, because I think this really reflects. if it's going to mean anything, we ought to be reflecting our national ethic in both of these, both in subverting the results of a valid electoral process--Senator Huddleston. Sacert you get into the question of canitaj punishment.Mr. Maxwell. There's another problem and that is one of the things that the torture is engaged in is before a person has been judged to be guilty of a crime. someone who is being tortured in an interrogation. that person would not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment but the systematic violation of human rights or some otherSenator Mathias. That's a phrase. though. with which Americans have been familiar since 1787. and it seems to me it has some value.Senator Hart. The problem is we don't give serious thought to the way we treat prisoners in this country.Senator Mathias. You. I think that's a problem. I think that's a problem in this whole thing.Someone once said at the time that the Italian payments were exposed, you know the Russians do this all the time and nobody blinks at it. of course the difference is we go> [Figure: TOP SECRET Label]> A "TOP SECRET" label, signifying highly sensitive information.
[157-10014-10121.pdf — page 145]
around and reaching all over the world about our high ethicalstandards and then when are shown that we don't live up toour own standards, that's what brings us the retribution.But I still think that we ought to notwithstanding thatthis is an opportunity for some linkage with the Constitution.Put I don't press the point. I just offer it.Senator Huddleston. Well. I think this is somethingwe should all give some thought to in the next few hours.Mr. Kirbow. If we are going to do that, may I suggestthat here we talk about support for police or internal securityforces.The remainder of that sentence shouldn't we apply itso that it is the policy of the country involved? Otherwiseyou're talking about aid in a covert manner governed by maybean inadvertent, without authority type series of exposuresof torture and whatnot. and you cut off the aid to a country.Mr. Aaron. Can I speak to that point?I think that Charley raises an interesting example andwe have sort of that kind of situation today in Brazil whereit is difficult to ascertain whether it is the police of thegovernment or whether the internal security forces which arevery fragmented among the military and the states and whathave you, whether these internal security forces and police arejust on their ownMr. Digenova. Should it matter?> [Figure: TOP SECRET watermarks.]> Image featuring the words "TOP SECRET" in large, bold, uppercase letters.
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Mr. Aaron. I think this is the question. It goes to the point not of assistance to the government in general or even covertly, but assistance to these particular forces, and that I think does narrow it down to the problem.Senator Huddleston. What kind of support do we give the security forces?Mr. Kirbow. Training.Mr. Aaron. We have in the past, we can give them technical, training, electronic devices.Mr. Kirbow. A whole spectrum except for U.S. military support.Mr. diGenova. Some of the proprietaries were used for exactly that purpose, to provide training and secure procurement and sale and loan of devices which ultimately found their way into the hands of foreign torturers.We certainly don't derive the Agency of any legitimate source of intelligence because they themselves claim that they have never engaged in this activity knowingly and don't want to.They say they don't want anything to do with this type of activity and they say they don't want to be involved with internal police forces that conduct this type of activity.They have said recently that they have discontinued those sorts of liaisons, so to prohibit them by banning it seems to us to say fine, we agree with you and we will do it.
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Mr. Aaron. What occurs to me is that it would be helpful to have a finding on this point.Mr. diGenova. That's the next issue I was going to raise. We don't write anything about this any place in the report.Senator Huddleston Does the Agency have a directive to that effect that they have discontinued or are discontinuing that we can refer to and say we approve of it?Mr. Inderfurth. As well as in the Chile covert action study there is discussion of liaison with the current Chilean internal security forces and that the CIA was saving, well we want to talk to them but we don't want to be involved in what they're doing and we want to try to stop them from their practices of torture and the rest.So I mean that's something we can look to as a basis for our findings.Mr. diGenova. There's also a parallel with the drug thing.Mr. Aaron. Senator, shall we try to see if we can come back with some language that tries to work in the Constitutional.point? I must say I personally have a little difficulty figuring out how you turn this around to try to apply to what the police do?Senator Mathias. Let's think about it.Senator Huddleston. Let's get back at 7:30. That's a
[157-10014-10121.pdf — page 148]
whole two hours and a half.(Whereupon, at 5:00 p.m., the hearing in the above mentioned matter was recessed, to reconvene at 7:30 o'clock p.m. of the same day.)
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2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992JFK Assassination SystemIdentification FormDate: 7/7/2015AGENCY INFORMATIONAGENCY: SSCIARECORD NUMBER: 157-10014-10125RECORD SERIES: MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTTEEAGENCY FILE NUMBER: 07-M-31DOCUMENT INFORMATIONORIGINATOR: SSCIAFROM:TO:TITLE:DATE: 03/10/1976PAGES: 78SUBJECTS: SSCSGO, METHODOLOGYCOMMITTEE BUSINESSDOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPTCLASSIFICATION: DeclassifiedRESTRICTIONS: 1B; ICCURRENT STATUS: RedactDATE OF LAST REVIEW: 03/22/2000OPENING CRITERIA :COMMENTS: CCBOX 324
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Date: 08/07/95Page : 1# JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEMIDENTIFICATION FORMAGENCY INFORMATIONAGENCY : SSCIARECORD NUMBER : 157-10014-10125RECORDS SERIES : MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTTEEAGENCY FILE NUMBER : 07-M-31DOCUMENT INFORMATIONORIGINATOR : SSCIAFROM :TO :TITLE :DATE : 03/10/76PAGES : 78SUBJECTS : SSCSGO, METHODOLOGYCOMMITTEE BUSINESSDOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPTCLASSIFICATION : TOP SECRETRESTRICTIONS : REFERREDCURRENT STATUS : POSTPONED IN FULLDATE OF LAST REVIEW : 01/05/99OPENING CRITERIA :COMMENTS : CCBOX 324[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED
[157-10014-10125.pdf — page 2]
TOP SECRETVol. 2 OF 3NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATIONUnauthorized Disclosure Subjectto Criminal Sanctions.The United States SenateReport of ProceedingsR2829Hearing held beforeSenate Select Committee to Study GovernmentalOperations With Respect to Intelligence ActivitiesWednesday, March 10, 1976Washington, D.C.(Stenotype Tape and Waste turned overto the Committee for destruction)WARD & PAUL410 FIRST STREET, S.E.WASHINGTON, D. C. 20003(202) 544-6000TOP SECRET
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# TOP SECRETFOREIGN AND MILITARY SUBCOMMITTEE MEETINGWednesday, March 10, 1976United States Senate,Select Committee to Study GovernmentalOperations with Respect toIntelligence Activities,Washington, D. C.The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:45 o'clockp.m., in Room S-407, the Capitol, the Honorable Walter D.Huddleston presiding.Present: Senators Huddleston (presiding), Hart ofColorado and Mathias.Staff: William G. Miller, Staff Director, and DavidAaron, Joseph diGenova, Lynn Davis, William Bader, ElizabethCulbreath, Charles Kirbow, Rick Inderfurth, Pat Shea, ElliotMaxwell and Al Quanbeck, Professional Staff Members,
[157-10014-10125.pdf — page 4]
# TOP SECRET1 And then the question is whether or not there is a prohi-2 bition on printing in the English language.3 Mr. Bader. And as I heard the consensus this morning,4 we would not move to that recommendation for a prohibition.5 I did_not hear whether on the distribution this would be by6 law, though I took it it was to be by law, though I can be corrected on that. I don't think we addressed that this morning.7 Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, on these that we considered8 to be rather -- that we have a fairly light record on or that9 we are not too sure what the future holds, one of the members that I rode over with on the car suggested that perhaps in those instances we could recommend fairly strongly whatever we want the followon people to do to ensure that the recommendation does not create havoc within the Agency or does not leave the rights of citizens unprotected.10 But that is not a cop out. It is something that you frequently do, say, let us reserve this for the permanent oversight committee or for whatever other group. We may have all the information we need.11 Senator Huddleston. Let them make the determination whether or not it should be a statute.12 Mr.Kirbow. Determine whether in the law whether it is working all right under the set of regulations.13 Mr. Bader. Mr. Chairman, may I say in this instance in the publishing trade there is no lack of record? The evidence
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# TOP SECRET2PROCEEDINGSSenator Huddleston. I call the Committee to order.Mr. Aaron. I believe Bill Bader had the temerity to summarize where we stand.Mr. Bader. Mr. Chairman, where I think we are at the moment is taking the three major issues before the Subcommittee in the order they were presented, and discussed this morning, the first being the academic issue, and as I heard the Subcommittee this morning, then I will have another go at the options, give enough options in the option paper and bring it back before the Committee for a further look before we go on.Senator Huddleston. By Friday.Mr. Bader. By Friday, without question.I think by this time we will all have -- we will try to include a positive option, that is to say, to approve if not applaud the expanded efforts of FRD to undertake these activities, or at least to endorse them.Now, going to the second was the covert use of books and publishing houses. We discussed two recommendations: one which I believe here the Committee has agreed to, and that is a prohibition on the distribution or subsidy of any books, magazines or other publications not attributed to the CIA inside the United States.Senator Huddleston. I think we can all accept that, can't we.
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TOP SECRET41 and inquiry into it has been thorough, and I think we know this2 well. There is no dispute from the Agency.3 Senator Huddleston. Well, is the law inconsistent with4 the statute on the information service?5 Mr. Bader. It is the same thing. I would recommend,6 Mr. Chairman, that this would be by law, by statute.7 Senator Huddleston. On the publication.8 Mr. Bader. On the publication.9 Senator Mathias. I would support that.10 Senator Huddleston. I think Gary Hart would also, so I11 think we will make that recommendation, that this one on the12 academics is the one we are not sure of.13 Mr. Bader. That's the one we would go forward with, and14 now we are moving to -- I would also reiterate that in our15 session the other night, I took it as agreement that the16 recommendation by statute the CIA should be prohibited from17 making operational use of all educational and cultural18 grantees of all U.S. Government sponsored programs, this was the19 issue which was raised of government funded programs such as20 the Fulbright program.21 Senator Huddleston. And that's either already a regulation22 or a directive or something to that effect.23 Mr. Aaron. Certain categories.24 Mr. Bader. Certain categories.25 Mr. Kirbow. That is brand new ground.NW 50955 DocId:32423513 Page 7
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# TOP SECRET51.  Mr. diGenova. The John McCloy exceptions to that rule, they    are the only ones that are protected.2.  Mr. Aaron. That justifies Charles' view that there are    some similarities between Ford Foundation and Government    sponsored activities.3.  Mr. Bader. Where our discussion was left before lunch    was on the question of the covert use of U.S. journalists and    media institutions, and as it was laid out, it was indicated    that the CIA's intended internal prohibition on the use of the    media extended to the internal prohibitions on the use, opera-    tional use of individuals, American and foreign, who were    accredited to American media organizations.4.  As I heard it this morning, what we were discussing and    moving to was to extend that prohibition to cover all American    individuals and media organizations, and that the question then    was whether this would be recommended to be something done in    law or a recommendation, or an insistence, if you will, to the    Agency that it further amend its internal directives, its    50-10, to put all media personnel, American media personnel on    the prohibited list, and that is I think where we were.5.  Senator Huddleston. I think that's an accurate statement.    That's where we were.6.  I had expressed a thought that I thought that it ought to    be expanded to include all, but we should hold off on the    statute business for the time being.NW 50955 DocId: 32423513 Page 8
[157-10014-10125.pdf — page 8]
TOP SECRET1 Senator Mathias. My role here seems to be the Devil's2 advocate.3 Senator Huddleston. Good.4 Senator Mathias. There is no question about the writing5 American press or the value in print domestically. Maybe the6 role, any legitimate role that news men could, journalists,7 writers could fulfill is available through the information8 agencies, USIA and groups of that sort.9 So does anybody know whether there is any real need10 for allowing some latitude, which is not covered by situations11 that can be envisioned under USIA or other programs?12 Mr. Kirbow. Well, Senator, the one that I discussed earlier13 that I probably didn't make my point well because no one14 seemed to have picked it up, is we do, by the words here, if I15 understand Mr. Bader, prohibit an American citizen living in16 Brussels and working for a local newspaper there from having17 anything to do with the CIA.18 Senator Huddleston. No we don't, do we?19 You mean by his extension?...20 Mr. Kirbow. Yes, sir.21 Senator Huddleston. But not by --22 Mr. Kirbow. But wasn't that what you wanted to put in23 the law, that you didn't know if you wanted --24 Senator Mathias. This is the point I wanted to raise25 here.
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TOP SECRET71 Mr. Kirbow. That kind of relationship is something that2 we should stay away from because I don't see any harm in it,3 nor do I think the record demonstrates any harm in it. I don't4 see -- I don't know how in the world this person doing that5 taints the minds of the American reading public, which is6 apparently what you are trying -- you're not trying to protect7 the newsman. You are trying to protect the reader who doesn't8 know that what he's getting is being spoonfed to him from the9 CIA, and I don't know why we would be so concerned about10 protecting newsmen from working, or prohibiting them from11 working, because I think they have a right to do that as12 American citizens, just as they do to work with the Department13 of Defense or any other agency.14 Mr. Bader. You would then rescind the Agency's standing15 prohibition?16 Mr. Kirbow. I just don't think you ever prohibit it in17 law.18 Mr. diGenova. Are you talking bout an affiliated,19 accredited journalist, because that's what the Agency regulation20 deals with. It doesn't deal with an American citizen. It21 deals with an accredited person, whether he is a foreign22 national or an American.23 Mr. Bader. To an American media organization..24 Mr. diGenova. But that's not the example Charles gave25 you.
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# TOP SECRETMr. Kirbow. Well, perhaps I misunderstand the extension that you, your full recommendation.Do you want to go beyond where the administration is in their position?Mr. Bader. I am recommending to go beyond where the Administration is at this stage, to extend the operational prohibition on the part of CIA to use American -- Americans in the mediaMr. Kirbow. Wherever located.Mr. Bader. Where they are using them undercover, at this stage, to the extent that it is a cover proposition.Senator Huddleston. Even if they are in foreign media?Mr. Bader. Yes, sir.Senator Huddleston. And even though all of their activities are related to foreign; they are not writing for American news services.Mr. Bader. Alternately, they could be with American media organizations.Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, I don't think there is a single shred of evidence on our record that that is in any way wrong- doing or in any way adversely affects the rights of American citizens. Clearly it will prohibit or could prohibit in the future the proper use of an individual that could be essential to the intelligence collection processes of the CIA, and it singles out a specific agency which is not doing any harm to
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# TOP SECRET1 the American citizenry, and says no, you cannot do this because2 you happen to be a secret organization.3 Senator Mathias. If I wanted to do it, Charlie, I think4 I could work out a scheme. I would hire a prominent American5 columnist to go and live in Paris, as Art Buchwald did, for6 example.7 Mr. Kirbow. And to pick off his columns and run them8 in the New York Times.9 Senator Mathias. And run them in the Paris Trib first,10 and then let the domestic press pick him up...11 Mr. Kirbow. But if he's in the Paris Trib, that's an affiliated U.S.13 Mr. Aaron. Well, suppose he writes for the Financial14 Times?15 Senator Mathias. Well, you could work out an echo program16 if you wanted.17 Senator Huddleston. Well, the basic point, instead18 of picking instances, it seems to me, is whether or not as an19 official policy of the United States Government we want an20 institution such as the press with all it means and all it is21 supposed to be in American with its constitutional provisions and22 whatever, to be subverted to the secret, clandestine operation23 that it can; Anytime we put any prohibition anywhere, we are24 eliminating somebody as a potential agent. You can't use25 that as a guideline.
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TOP SECRET10Mr. Kirbow. These people are not necessarily subverted.Senator Huddleston. I'm talking about the institution of the free press being subverted, not the individual.Mr. Kirbow. I'll extend that one further. I don't see how using them for cover, which has no direct effect, like the example I guess you gave, Senator, of a vice president of a bureau of some sort who has nothing to do with the writing or editing or anything; he is the business head of the operation just like any other corporation. This thing extends to that.Senator Huddleston. He may have something do with the selection of the people who do write.Mr. Kirbow. Well, if you could give us an abuse that we are trying to correct, or some reason for it?Mr. Bader. It's not a question of abuse, it's a question of the use, the operational use of an institution such as the press for operational purposes.Mr. Kirbow. Well, explain then, and perhaps I'm going -- explain the sanctity of the press if it is not to protect an uninformed reader from having his mind tainted by the relation-ship. What is the sanctity of the press as an organization?It is not sanctity like the church and state. I just don't see the record for this.Senator Huddleston. Well, the clergy and the press I think are institutions.Mr. Kirbow. Well, I think the clergy and maybe the