Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 42]
# TOP SECRETPhone (Area 202) 544-600051Mr. Wides. So how would he get the information aboutpotential targets in New York?Mr. Sarno. Because they had the groups down in Miamipenetrated, so in Miami, these groups in Miami, would discusstheir contacts with the splinter group sitting up in New Yorkand the information would come about.Mr. Wides. You never got any written instructions ororal instructions when you were in Washington or Miami to seeif you could arrange for this person to get information onpeople in New York?Mr. Sarno. Never. Never once.Mr. Wides. What about picketing in New York by Cubanpersonnel? There's some reference to that in testimony we'vealready received.Mr. Sarno. There is one incident of the Mexico -- I thinkit was against Mexico, where they went to an affair or somethingand threw out leaflets.Mr. Wides. What about picketing of an airline company oran airline office?Mr. Sarno. I heard that that took place, but I was notin Miami at the time. I was away on a trip.Mr. Wides. But your understanding was it involved ![AMUTS] personnel?Mr. Sarno. This individual was involved in it.Mr. Wides. And what did you understand had been theNW 50955 DocId: 32202440 Page 43# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 43]
# TOP SECRET1 origins of the picketing? How would it come about?2 Mr. Sarno. Well, I don't believe it was started, I know3 it wasn't started in *AMUTS* because one individual cannot start4 it, but the groups, the Cuban exile groups who were located in5 New York decided to picket it because, I believe, of Mexico's6 relations with Cuba.7 Mr. Wides. At this time, wasn't the Agency carrying on8 a wide variety of operations to try and isolate Cuba economically9 and commercially?10 Mr. Sarno. I believe they were, yes. I was never involved11 in any of those operations.12 Mr. Wides. And including air traffic people, airlines13 going to Cuba. That was one aspect of the efforts to isolate14 Cuba.15 Mr. Sarno. Well, the airlines going to Cuba, if I16 can recall at that time, were not Mexican airlines.17 Mr. Wides. You didn't have any idea at the time as to18 what --19 Mr. Sarno. Mexican airlines do not fly to Cuba. The20 Cubans always flew their airplanes over. The Mexicans were21 not flying.22 Mr. Wides. So you understood this to be harrassment of23 a Mexican Company or a Mexican national company, because of24 Mexico's general relations with Cuba?25 Mr. Sarno. General relations with Cuba, that is what I# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 44]
TOP SECRET531 understood it to be.2 Mr. Wides. And you didn't have any information that the3 Agency was aware of it beforehand?4 Mr. Sarno. No, sir, I was never involved in it. I don't5 recall ever seeing the reports or anything, because as I say,I did an awful lot of travelling when I handled the AMUTS67 Mr. Wides. When you discussed this with the people at8 the Agency, is your testimony that you never heard any indica-9 tion that the Agency was involved in that picketing?10 Mr. Sarno. That is --11 Mr. Wides. No one's ever suggested --12 Mr. Sarno. Nobody ever suggested that the Agency was the13 one who backed the people who did the picketing, no.14 Mr. Wides. Now was there a time when AMUTS personnel who15 had not moved outside of the Miami area were ever used or16 involved in any Agency operations to your knowledge outside ofMiami, went on trips to do little jobs?18 Mr. Sarno. AMUTS went out of Miami in order to do little19 jobs --20 Mr. Wides. I don't mean to Cuba.21 Mr. Sarno. No, they went out of Miami to do little jobs22 like for instance a specialist in say, sugar, would say come23 out of Cuba through Spain and he'd end up in New York, and so24 an AMUTS would go from Miami to New York to debrief him. Or we25 would hear of somebody who knew of a well-known government
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 45]
TOP SECRET541 figure in Cuba who came out and he goes to Louisiana or he2 goes to Chicago. Well, an AMOT would be dispatched over to his3 house to debrief him. That is the only places I ever sent the4 AMUTS, or the AMOTS were ever sent.5 Mr. Wides. What about with regard to surveillances or6 breaking or entering?7 Mr. Sarno. Never.8 Mr. Wides. Mr. Sturbitz, do you know him?9 Mr. Sarno. Sturbitz?10 Mr. Wides. He was involved in economic warfare against11 Castro.12 Mr. Sarno. Sturblitz or Sturbitz?13 Mr. Wides. Sturbitz.14 Mr. Sarno. Yes, I know Sturbitz.15 Mr. Wides. He testified he conducted some inquiries in16 regard to the question of AMUTS involvement in possible illegal17 activities, breaking and entering, surveillance and so forth.18 Were you aware of those investigations?19 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.20 Mr. Wides. Have you ever heard any charges or allegations21 or suggestions that AMUTS personnel were involved in breaking22 and entering in New York against groups like the Fair Play For23 Cuba Committee, the Vinceremos Brigade?24 Mr. Sarno. No, sir, no, sir.25 Mr. Wides. And you never heard anything about the use ofTOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 46]
TOP SECRET551 AMOTS in regard to any kind of harrassing action against those2 groups?3 Mr. Sarno. No, sir, never.4 Mr. Wides. Do you know if any members of AMOTS may have5 heen used in these kinds of activities without your express6 direction or not as part of its CIA task?7 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.8 Mr. Wides. You never heard anything about it?9 Mr. Sarno. Never heard.10 Mr. Wides. In Florida also?11 Mr. Sarno. In Florida also.12 Mr. Wides. What about with regard to Puerto Rico and13 AMOTS going there. Tell us about that.14 Mr. Sarno. Well, there were several AMOTS who left Miami15 and went over to Puerto Rico. There is a large Cuban community16 in Puerto Rico with the attendant Cuban exile groups, and it17 was the same thing as was going on in New York. They would18 collect data on what these groups were doing, operations that19 they were preparing, funds that they were collecting, et20. cetera.21 Mr. Wides. Did you see those reports as they came in?22 Mr. Sarno. Yes, they came in and San Jenis would prepare23 them and send them into the office.24 Mr. Wides. When did they start including reports on25 Puerto Rican affairs?
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 47]
# TOP SECRET561 Mr. Sarno. Never.2 Mr. Wides. No discussion in those reports --3 Mr. Sarno. Never once did they write up about Puerto4 Rican political affairs. I never once saw a report.5 Mr. Wides. Did you ever have any discussion with San Jenis6 or anyone involved in the Puerto Rican Cuban community about7 Puerto Rican affairs?8 Mr. Sarno. Never.9 Mr. Wides. Was there a station operating at that time10 for the Caribbean in Puerto Rico?11 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.12 Mr. Wides. During the entire period, '61 til about '67?13 Mr. Sarno. To my knowledge, there wasn't. There was14 not a station.15 Mr. Wides. Do you want to go ahead?16 Mr. DeMarco. Just a couple.17 You mentioned, or it was touched upon earlier, the18 period of time you were actually in Cuba, 1961.19 Mr. Sarno. '60 and '61.20 Mr. DeMarco. What requirements were levied upon you when21 you left to go to Cuba?22 Mr. Sarno. None.23 Mr. DeMarco. Well, you'd better explain that. I don't24 understand that answer at all. You just went on a vacation?25 Mr. Sarno. I was transferred from a foreign country toTOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 48]
# TOP SECRET1 Cuba because they needed me.2 Mr. DeMarco. What foreign country were you transferred3 from?4 Mr. Sarno. I don't think that I should state that.5 Mr. DeMarco. I insist that you answer that.6 Mr. Wides. Let's go off the record.7 (Discussion off the record.)8 Mr. DeMarco. For the record, I think I should explain to you that we are highly interested in the sort of activities that you were involved in in Cuba in 1960 and '61, but our investigation has to a certain point been slowed down by the inability to obtain the right kinds of documents and that being the case, and your insistence here on not answering certain questions, will require us to simply have you come back once we have cleared this up with your superiors at the Agency and once they have been more forthcoming with documents that were long ago requested about your activities.9 I don't want to pursue just suspicions with you, I'd rather talk to you about specific dates and facts.10 We are going to pursue this very vigorously, and the reason I'm interested in it is the gambling background, and I would like to know your training in that area, your experience in that area and the reasons why you were down there.11 Now if there is anything you want to tell me now, or do you want to come back# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 49]
TOP SECKEI58Mr. Sarno. Sure, I'll tell you now. I was in a country and I don't think I have to name the country because you are interested in Cuba and you are interested in the operation that I had in Miami and I don't think you're interested in what I did before I went to Cuba. I tell you that nobody gave me any instructions when I went to Cuba. I knew the Chief of Station in Cuba and had known him for many years. He asked for me specifically to come over for my abilities or qualifications or experience. I climbed on an airplane and I went to Cuba.I met the Chief of Station and he told me what he wanted me to do.Mr. DeMarco. What's his name?Mr. Sarno. Jim Noel.Mr. DeMarco. You met Mr. Noel and he told you what he wanted you to do?What did he tell you?Mr. Sarno. He told me he wanted me to set up a stay-behind net in Cuba because the situation was getting very bad and he would like to set a stay-behind net up in Cuba.Mr. Wides. This is with the break in Cuban relations?Mr. Sarno. That's right, the pending break in diplomatic relations and the rest of the things, and he wanted to set up a net over in Cuba. And that is why he called for me.Mr. DeMarco. Okay. So you --Mr. Sarno. I went into Cuba and did not have a job. I hadTOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 50]
TOP SECRET591 no cover. I went in as a tourist, a tourist can wear thin so2 I had to scrounge around in different ways. w had a brother-3 in-law who was a professional gambler. When I was a kid, he4 died. He taught me a little about gambling, so I used to go5 to the black jack tables and I would win money here, there and6 the other place.7 Mr. DeMarco. Is this the hotel black jack tables8 predominantly?9 Mr. Sarno. No, they had black jack, roulette, they had10 baccarat. I would go in there, I would make myself seen, they11 would see that I was wearing good clothes and I was winning12 money at the gambling tables and that's it.13 I am not to be tied into any Syndicate or anything like14 it. I didn't know a single soul.15 Mr. DeMarco. You knew no one?16 Mr. Sarno. Nobody.17 Mr. DeMarco. And your task then, which you learned on18 arriving there, was to set up a network?19 Mr. Sarno. To set up a network of agents in Cuba, yes.20 Mr. DeMarco. So you started meeting people to do that?21 Mr. Sarno. No.22 We never meet people to do that.23 Mr. DeMarco. Describe to me how you did it.24 Mr. Sarno. People ware spotted by other individuals and25 they're checked out, and once they're checked out and their
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 51]
# TOP SECRETclearance is obtained on them, they are delivered to me for me to handle and train and what have you.Mr. DeMarco. I see.Were any of those Americans?Mr. Sarno. No, I never spotted any Americans. There were two Americans over there who were already working, and they were given to me to use as, to handle some of the other ones that were involved.Mr. DeMarco. Were they also involved in the same type of cover you were, gambling?Mr. Sarno. No. They were not in the same cover. As I say, it was a cover provided by the Agency. It was a cover I just naturally stumbled into since I was going to the different casinos and I was winning money there and I could pass myself off as a tourist-gambler.Mr. DeMarco. These other two Americans you were talking about, can you name them?Mr. Sarno. Well, I'll give you the name. One I would name, because I was not involved with the other one very long. One's name is Emelio Rodriquez, but he is dead now.Mr. DeMarco. He was an American?Mr. Sarno. Yes, he died of a heart attack. And the other was Julian.Mr. DeMarco. Julian?Mr. Sarno. Julian. I don't recall the last name, but he
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 52]
TOP SECRET611 only remained for about two months after I arrived.2 Mr. DeMarco. What were these two people doing in Cuba prior to the time they were turned over to you and you met them?4 Mr. Sarno. Collection of intelligence.6 Mr. DeMarco. For the Agency?7 Mr. Sarno. Yes, for the Agency. They were agents of the Agency, as was I. But they were residing in Cuba.9 Mr. DeMarco. At any time while you were in Cuba, for that matter, at any time, did you become aware of any Agency relationships with -- I'm going to use the term generically -- organized crime. Do you understand what I mean by that?13 Mr. Sarno. Yes, certainly.14 Mr. DeMarco. Whether or not organized, people who you've read about in the paper, or you would consider to be involved in that kind of business, are you aware of any relationships between any Agency personnel in Cuba or elsewhere?18 Mr. Sarno. None whatsoever.19 Mr. DeMarco. During the period of time that you were in the casinos, playing black jack and roulette and so forth, did you get an opportunity to meet the people that were running the casinos?22 Mr. Sarno. No.24 There was one big Swede in the Capri that because it was close to where I was living I would go in there more often, and
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 53]
TOP SECRETPhone (Area 202) 544-600062as soon as I take off from my house, my apartment, I would head over there and he was always seeing me in and offer me drinks, but he was not a big wheel, he was just one of their employees.Mr. DeMarco. Where was this?Mr. Sarno. At the Capri.Mr. DeMarco. You say a big Swede?Mr. Sarno. A big Swede, a blond-haired fellow. I didn't even know his name, I'd just call him Swede.Mr. DeMarco. Was he an American, or from Sweden?Mr. Sarno. I think he was from America.Mr. DeMarco. Were any of the people that you were involved in handling in Cuba commercial or airline people? Any airline people?Mr. Sarno. No, sir.Mr. DeMarco. Did any of them have official Cuban govern-ment positions?Mr. Sarno. Yes.Mr. DeMarco. They did?Mr. Sarno. Some of them did, those were the ones that you were looking for.Mr. DeMarco. I don't have anything more at this time.Mr. Wides. I am just a little puzzled by your testimony regarding the AMPHIS activity with regard to the Cuban community.You indicated there was a CI capability, but if I understand
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 54]
# TOP SECRETPhone (Area 202) 544-600063it, you said the only penetration was for purposes of findingout about exile activities being planned against Cuba.What was your testimony with regard to the use of AMUTSfor members of the Cuban community who might come undersuspicion as possibly being intentionally or unintentionally --Mr. Sarno. Suspect?Mr. Wides. They were employed or they were not employedin any way regarding checking on this?Mr. Sarno. If you mean to say did they go around andsurveil them --Mr. Wides. No. In any sense of counterintelligencework, keeping their ears open and reporting back informationthat might be of a suspicious nature.Mr. Sarno. Well, to explain it, if an AMUT were to walkinto a place and see a friend and the friend says did you seeJuan, do you know Juan is here, and the AMUT himself knows andthe guy he's talking to that Juan used to work for the InternalSecurity in Cuba, it's obvious. Where's he at, try to findhim.And then they would go back to the files and dig out allthe information and in would come a report. Juan is in thecity of Miami and here's the stuff that we have on him. Hewas a Castro collaborator, or he's a member of the securityforces over there, and everything.Mr. Wides.. So in general it would be fair to say -- and410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003NW 50955 DocId:32202440 Page 55# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 55]
TOP SECKEI                                                                                                        641   I'm not trying to twist your testimony, I know you referred2   to the basic purpose being to keep tabs on what was going on3   so you would be aware of what Alpha-66 and groups like that4   were planning, but in general, they were the eyes and ears of5   the Station in the Cuban community and might come up with6   counterintelligence information as well as the information7   about the activities?8   Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir, yes, sir.9   Mr. Wides. And as you understand it on a smaller scale,10  this was also true with regards to the group in New York?11  Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.12  Mr. Wides. It was not simply to find out about Alpha-66,13  but they would also report to the extent that they obtained14  CI, that is counterintelligence information, about the Cubans15  in New York?16  Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.17  Mr. Wides. What about with regards to the activities at18  the UN? Any reports regarding UN activity relative to Cuba?19  Mr. Sarno. No, sir.20  Mr. Wides. Was there a Cuban mission at the UN at this21  time?22  Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.23  Mr. Wides. And this group never relayed any information24  regarding the Cuban mission or the people they contacted in25  New York?                                                                                                           TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 56]
TOP SECRETPhone (Area 202) 544-6000 651 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.2 Mr. Wides. Why wouldn't they have been used for that3 purpose?4 Mr. Sarno. Because that is the Bureau's domain. We never5 checked up on Cubans, the diplomats who were in the UN, nobody6 was ever in contact with them, they never reported on any7 Cuban diplomats in the UN or any of the Cubans seeing them or8 anything.9 Mr. Wides. Did you ever hear any stories whether they10 were associated with AMUTS or not of Cuban exiles being11 involved in any harrassment or surveillance of groups in12 America friendly toward the Castro regime, such as the13 Vinceremos Brigade and the Fair Play For Cuba Committee?14 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.15 Mr. Wides. You were not aware of any activity by exiles?16 I'm not talking about necessarily AMUTS17 Mr. Sarno. Not of any activities.18 Mr. Wides. You never heard anything?19 Mr. Sarno. I never heard anything.20 You're smiling. I'm telling you, I never heard anything.21 Mr. Wides. What about Cubans in the late '60's after the22 Vietnam War arose, being involved, Cuban exiles, in any23 harrassment or surveillance of peace groups? What do you know24 about that?25 Mr. Sarno. Nothing.NW 50955 DocId: 32202440 Page 57 TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 57]
# TOP SECRET66Mr. Wides. Do you know anything about Cubans coming up from Miami to be involved in surveillance or disruption of any peace demonstrations in Washington?Mr. Sarno. No, sir.Mr. Wides. You never heard of that?Mr. Sarno. I never heard of it. I know no AMUTS and I never heard of any other Cubans.Mr. Wides. Is there anything else that you -- have you gotten a clear understanding of our lines of interest?Mr. Sarno. Yes, I have.Mr. Wides. -- would like to tell us, or any information --Mr. Sarno. I have no information. I ran a group there and we were never involved in anything which I would consider to be illegal. They were working against the government of Cuba.Mr. Wides. I understand that.Mr. Sarno. And that is where all of their energy went.Mr. Wides. Who was it who would ask you to have members of AMUTS detailed for missions elsewhere in America?You described one where they would go to another city to debrief somebody.Mr. Sarno. I would --Mr. Wides. How would you get those instructions? From the Branch Chief?Mr. Sarno. No, I wouldn't get the instructions. Since it# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 58]
TOP SECRET67was a group and we were collecting economic and politicalintel --Mr. Wides. Where would you get the information that therewas a target of opportunity or someone to be debriefed inanother city?Mr. Sarno. If the AMUT were to come up with the informa-tion, if the AMUT were to come up with the information, hewould come in and report it and I would authorize him to gointo that city and find him, because the information couldcome in many ways.See, they were known as the Cuban municipalities andoperations in the city of Miami, and everybody that came outfrom like a province or a state would register in it, andas soon as they got information, the word would get around thatJoe Blow came in or something like that, and the word would getback to the AMUTS and the AMUTS would say, well, we shoulddiscuss with this fellow, and that's it.Mr. Wides. You never got any requests for AMUTS personnelto be made available for that kind of task from Washington?Mr. Sarno. To debrief an individual?Mr. Wides. Or to travel in general.Mr. Sarno. Yes, yes, they would come down and say, wewould like a person because Washington would hear of anindividual and would like for him to go over and debrief.Mr. Wides. What office?TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 59]
TOP SECRET1 Mr. Sarno. It would come out of the Cuban branch.2 Mr. Wides. Cuban. Operations Task?3 Who would come down? Just a member of the staff?4 Mr. Sarno. Come down? They usually came in a cable.5 It said, you know, we understand such and such a person is living at such and such an address and they worked at such and such, suggest send an AMOL out to debrief.678 Mr. Wides. Did you have a particular point of contact or several people who were particular points of contact for you that would tend to be the ones sending you cables?91011 Mr. Sarno. No, I wasn't the Station Chief. The cables come into the station, the Station Chief would pass it to me or to the Branch Chief, and that would be it.121314 Mr. Wides. Okay.15 I think that's all the questions we have, and I want to thank you for your patience, it's been a long morning.1617 (Whereupon, at 12:42 o'clock p.m., the hearing recessed.)1819202122232425NW 50955 DocId:32202440 Page 60TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10254.pdf — page 0]
# JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEMIDENTIFICATION FORMAGENCY INFORMATIONAGENCY: SSCIARECORD NUMBER: 157-10005-10254RECORDS SERIES :AGENCY FILE NUMBER :DOCUMENT INFORMATIONORIGINATOR : SSCIAFROM: KELLEY, BOBTO: THE FILETITLE :MEMORANDUMDATE: 05/30/75PAGES: 10SUBJECTS :INTERVIEW WITH STEPHENS, JOHN HENRY-CIA COVERT ACTION OPSDOCUMENT TYPE: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENTCLASSIFICATION : SRESTRICTIONS: REFERREDCURRENT STATUS: PDATE OF LAST REVIEW : 10/05/93OPENING CRITERIA :COMMENTS:BOX 259-6[R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED
[157-10005-10254.pdf — page 1]
# Interview with John H. Stephens Page Threeexact month) he was ordered to go to Guatamela to train the Cuban airborne brigade that eventually was parachuted into Cuba six hours in advance of the landing at the Bay of Pigs. This training was conducted at a site in the Guatamelan jungle called *De Finca or the Farm* A nearby village was *Retalalao* (phonetic spelling).During the time this training was conducted, i.e. from 1959 to the Bay of Pigs invasion, Mr. Stephens recalls there were two occasions when he and/or members of his 4-5 man training cadre were told to give parachutes and weapons to individuals who were to be parachuted into Cuba to attempt to assassinate Castro. Mr. Stephens stated that he did not precisely recall whether he was expressly told these individuals were going to Cuba to try to kill Castro, but he said he was clear that from either the instructions he received or the nature and details of the particular situation that this was the mission.I asked Mr. Stephens to describe what he would do after being told to outfit the individuals who were to be dropped into Cuba for these assassination efforts. He stated that he or members of his cadre (he declined to specify whether he personally outfitted these individuals or whether it was done by his co-workers) would provide parachutes and whatever weapons the individuals desired. He referred to an "assassination package." Such a "package" would contain a variety of weapons, grenades, and other armaments, including a special "assassination gun." This gun, Mr. Stephens said, was a 9 mm.