Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 28]
TOP SECRETwas sent to the Congo to assess the possibility forassassinating Lumumba rather than to mount some sort of kid-napping plan to draw Lumumba out from the U.N. guard and puthim in the hands of Congolese authorities?Mr. Tweedy. That is certainly my recollection but Iwould not want to put too high a value on it. Ijust don't recall kidnapping as a factor is all.Mr. Baron. Did Richard Bussell ever mention to you thatlethal biological agents had been developed in the CIAlaboratories for possible use in the Congo to assassinate Lumum-ba? Or they were available for such use?Mr. Tweedy. I think that it would be closer that TSDprobably had the capability or had the agent or whatever itwas. When I say agent I mean chemical agent. I suspect Iheard that, yes.Mr. Baron. Would this have been under Sidney Gottlieb's auspices or direction in TSD?Mr. Tweedy. If he was Chief of TSD at the time it wouldhave been. I don't recall. Was he? I think he was.Mr. Baron. Did Richard Bissell ever indicate to you directly that Sidney Gottlichiwas involved in developing poisons that might be used for assassination?Mr. Tweedy. I don't recall that at all.Mr. Baron. In your discussions with Bissell, about the feasibility of an assassination operation, did poisonsTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 29]
# TOP SECRETcome up as one means that was being considered and which the Chief of Station should explore?Mr. Tweedy. I am sure it must have. After all, there are not many ways of doing it. Shoot a man, poison him, of course you could, “I suppose, stab him or something like that. But basically you are talking about a contingency plan which I assume has the best possibility of protecting the involvement of the U.S. Government and if you want to do it in a manner which would be as distant, if that is the right word, as possible, I think poison would then stand high on the list of possibilities.Mr. Baron. Did the Chief of Station ever make a response to you via cable which indicated that he was exploring means of gaining access to Lumumba for the possible use of poisoning -- purpose of poisoning him.Mr. Tweedy. I am sure he must have done that. I don't recall specifically, but that effect is what he was charged to do in the first instance, examine the possibilities.I would be very surprised if Hedgman didn't come back and in effect comment on this but the nature of his comments I really don't recall.Mr. Dawson. When you and Bissell had your conversations, whatever time it was, concerning this matter, did he mention to you that he had approval or direction from highest authority to undertake to assassinate Lumumba?# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 30]
# TOP SECRETMr. Tweedy. I don't recall that, no. I guess I was under the impression when he talked to me that -- I don't know whether this is fair or not -- I honestly don't know what my impression was at the time whether this was something that Bissell had in effect sucked out of his own thumb as a contingency plan which he then raised with higher authority, and because it was contingency planning I don't think at that stage I was particularly concerned. But to answer the question I just don't know.Mr. Dawson. You stated earlier you knew Gordon Gray very well.Mr. Tweedy. I didn't say that. I have known Gordon Gray far better since than I did then. I knew Gordon Gray very slightly indeed then, and I am not sure I over had a -- while he was in office -- that I ever had a personal conversation with him. I have seen a lot of him since he was on the President's Board.Mr. Dawson. That answers my question.Mr. Baron. Richard Bissell never made a representation to you one way or the other as to whether he had approval from any authority higher than DDP for this consideration of assassinating Lumumba?Mr. Tweedy. No, I do not recall so.Mr. Baron. Did Richard Bissell ever indicate to you that he was directly in contact with the Chief of Station in# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 31]
# TOP SECRET29Leopoldville or that he had means of dealing directly with the Chief of Station in Leopoldville without going through you?Mr. Tweedy. He always said that any DDP, of course, that has the capability, and right, it was never my impression that he was using it and going around me, no. But that he did, but he might have done it, I wouldn't gainsay it, he certainly had the right and capability to go into it.Mr. Dawson. Can we go into how the right was able to be exercised?Mr. Tweedy. All he had to do was send a cable. He could establish his own channel to Leopoldville with his own set of slugs which would exclude the Chief of African Division. He has the right to do that.Mr. Baron. It would not be improper for a DDP to send a cable or messenger to the Chief of Station in another country?Mr. Tweedy. I wouldn't comment on the appropriateness. He obviously had the authority. My relationships with Bissell were such that I do not believe it.I never had the impression that he ever had any intention or desire to go around me on matters of this kind.Mr. Dawson. Who else other than the DDP or DCI would have such authority?Mr. Tweedy. I don't know.# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 32]
# TOP SECRET1 Mr. Baron. Would the President?2 Mr. Tweedy. Yes, but he would probably have to come to the Agency to find out how to do it. I imagine the President could send a personal representative, I am damn sure he would have no way of knowing how to send a cable out there. He would make a muck of it if he did.7 Mr. Baron. Did you learn at any point that lethal bio- logical substances were actually in the custody of the Chief of Station in Congo?10 Mr. Tweedy. This was mentioned when I talked to you and Mr. Wides and my answer was that I don't recall it, but that it was perfectly possible for them to be sent there.13 Mr. Baron. How would they have been sent?14 Mr. Tweedy. They could have been sent one or two ways, they would have been sent through the pouch with the whole thing wrapped in and addressed in such manner that it would be opened only by the Chief of Station or somebody coming out by hand of officer or hand of somebody either way it could be done.19 Mr. Baron. Do you have any knowledge of a messenger from CIA headquarters having to go to the Congo to provide the Chief of Station in the Congo with instructions to carry out the assassination of Lumumba, if possible, and also provide him with the tools to carry out such an assassination, namely, poisons and medical equipment for administering them?# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 33]
TOP SECRETMr. Tweedy. No, I do not.Mr. Baron. Let me represent to you that we have testimony from the Chief of Station in the Congo at that point that he had received a cable from headquarters saying that a messenger would arrive in the Congo and would be someone that he would recognize and this messenger would give him instructions that he was to carry out.Did you ever know of such a cable being sent to the Congo?Mr. Tweedy. I should be very surprised if I didn't, but I certainly have no recollection of it whatsoever.Mr. Baron. And the Chief of Station further testified that shortly after receiving such a cable he received a visit from *Signey Cottlieb* who arrived in Leopoldville and made himself known to the Chief of Station, the Chief of Station said that he immediately recognized *Gottlieb* as an officer of the Agency, and as the messenger that this cable referred to.Subsequently, the Chief of Station said he had meetings with *Dr. Cottlieb* in his apartment in Leopoldville where *Dr. Gottlieb* gave him instructions that he said came from the headquarters to carry out the assassination of Lumumba and *Dr. Gottlich* also, according to the Chief of Station, gave him lethal biological substances and medical equipment with which to administer them.TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 34]
# TOP SECRET1 Were you aware of that chain of events? 322 Mr. Tweedy. That sounds far more definitive than any-3 thing I have any recollection of at all.4 If I understand what you said was, Gottlieb would have5 left instructions with the Chief of Station which would have6 empowered the Chief of Station at the conclusion of their7 conversations, to go out and assassinate Lumumba, without any8 further recourse or reference to headquarters?9 Mr. Baron. That is --10 Mr. Tweedy. If that is the case I don't believe it.11 Mr. Baron. That is the essence of the testimony that12 the Chief of Station although he did say that he was not anxious13 to carry out an assassination mission. He didn't think it was14 practical or wise and he probably would have gone back15 to headquarters to consult with them if he thought he16 was in a position to move immediately to carry out the assass-17 ination plan, but it was his opinion that the policy decision18 had been made and that he had authority to move aheadalthough he doubted --19 Mr. Tweedy. My recollection doesn't go anywhere nearthat far.22 Mr. Dawson. He checked that authority by immediatelycabling back to headquarters saying, this guy has made himself24 available to me as well as he has delivered something and25 has told me that he had the approval of the highest authorityTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 35]
# TOP SECRETin the land to order me to do what he so ordered, which got another cable back through the specially slugged cable saying yes, what he told you is correct.Mr. Tweedy. I don't recall that, which surprises me, because once again I would be very surprised, I wouldn't have been privy to those.Mr. Baron. If a request such as the plan Mr. Dawson outlined had been sent from the Congo to headquarters and it were in more narrow cryptic terms, for instance, if it had said simply I have seen your messenger and received instructions and request confirmation that I am to carry them out, would that refresh your recollection as to whether you had seen such a cable?Mr. Tweedy. I can't be at all sure it will refresh my recollection but if you and Hedgman say that such a cable was sent, I am not going to gainsay it.Mr. Baron. Would that be the manner in which confirmation for such a sensitive operation would be requested?Mr. Tweedy. I don't know because I never saw one before or since but it sounds highly reasonable to me. This is the way, this would be the way I should have thought .any two sensible people would confer on sensitive matters when each knew that the other knew exactly what he was talking about and, of course, you don't have to use unnecessary words but beyond the likelihood of this I can't say that is what.# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 36]
TOP SECRET341 Mr. Dawson. This leaves us with one or two alter-2 natives, either the Chief of Station who has appeared and3 testified although not necessarily reluctantly, but certainly4 reluctantly as to substance of his testimony, is not telling5 us the truth, or he is telling us the truth and you were: not6 privy to what was going on.7 Mr. Tweedy. Or I literally don't recall it. This is myproblem. I will tell you quite frankly with these things --8 Mr. Dawson. It is 15 years ago.9 Mr. Tweedy. I really am having trouble with this. I10 had to be reminded of so many things about the things that11 I recall the most vividly about all my African experiences12 were basically the things I was basically concerned with all13 the time which was putting this division together and the14 rest of it.15 When it comes to operational detail I start getting16 fuzzy and you would have thought with something like thinking17 about Mr. Lumumba in these terms, that I would have gone to18 bed and got up thinking about Lumumba, I can assure you thiswasn't the case.19 I spent days in a row not even giving Lumumba one20 single bloody thought. This is my problem.21 Mr. Dawson. Let's try to jog your memory on this.22 Do you recall any time during that period of any dis-23 cussions of the use of Dr. Gottlieb whatsoever as a courier?TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 37]
# TOP SECRET35Mr. Tweedy. No.Mr. Dawson. All right.Mr. Tweedy. But if he went as a courier, I will bet I knew it, but I don't recall it.Mr. Baron. Having heard this story, would it be your assumption it is more likely to be true than not?Mr. Tweedy. Well, I put it purely this way.Mr. Baron. I am asking you for your expert opinion here as someone experienced.Mr. Tweedy. Expert opinion.Mr. Dawson. You had been the person responsible for promoting this Chief of Station or at least appointing him Chief of Station, I assume?Mr. Tweedy. That in actual fact isn't true. His appointment was already in the works when I came aboard and I had met Hedgman in London on his previous assignment which, if I remember correctly, was in Brussels and he came to London to discuss an operational matter with me which had nothing whatsoever to do with that and we had a very good discussion. It was only, I think, when I got back to headquarters as it were, took up the reins after the division that I learned that he had been appointed Chief of Station in the Congo, a decision with which I took absolutely no exception whatsoever, but as a number of assignments may be made before I came they had to be they couldn't wait for me# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 38]
# TOP SECRET1 to get the word.2 Mr. Dawson. Have you ever had any occasion to doubt his veracity or integrity?3 Mr. Tweedy. I have not.4 I think when I say yes to your basic question, it would5 be that I would trust his memory and I certainly trust his6 integrity.7 Mr. Baron. We don't question it.8 Mr. Tweedy. All of this happened pretty much the way9 you gave it to me.10 Mr. Baron. That would be your --11 Mr. Tweedy. The aspect of it I find very difficult to12 believe it that at any time headquarters said on receipt of13 these instructions, go ahead and do it. This I find very14 difficult to -- I do not recall and I find difficult to believe15 and I believe implicitly the reaction he gave you which was,16 reaction, that if he found it not feasible he sure as17 hell would have referred again to headquarters before he did it.18 Mr. Baron. Why did you find it difficult to believe such an instruction would have been given?19 Mr. Tweedy. That way I would have said in such a20 matter of this kind, headquarters would have wanted to have a21 last word up to the last minute.22 Not one of these things that Gottlieb runs off to the25 TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 39]
# TOP SECRET371 Congo and by the time he has found Hedgman, given his instruc-tions and all of which could have been four or five or six2 days later and Hedgman in turn had found a way to do it3 even then set about his leisure to do it or without further5 reference to headquarters that is not the way my organizationhas ever run operations.7 Mr. Baron. Was it likely at all that Dr. Gottlieb8 would have gone off on his own with these poisons to the9 Congo to deliver them to the Chief of Station?10 Mr. Tweedy. I should have said quite impossible.11 Mr. Baron. Without an instruction from the DDP atleast?12 Mr. Tweedy. That is quite impossible.13 Mr. Baron. Would Dr. Gottlieb have proceeded to the15 Congo in the way the organization normally worked if theDCI had tasked him directly with such a mission?17 Mr. Tweedy. I am afraid I don't quite understand.18 Mr. Baron. If the DCI had given Dr. Gottlieb aninstruction to go to the Congo and deliver poisons to theChief of Station would he have done it without consultingwith the DDP?21 Mr. Tweedy. I suppose so.22 But I don't believe it. I don't believe it ever happened.23 To answer your question, I suppose if anybody got a24 personal private instruction from the DCI, and was instructed25 TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 40]
# TOP SECRET1 to proceed without reference to anybody else he would pre-2 sumably go ahead and do so.3 Mr. Baron. But, because the feasibility of this4 assassination of Lumumba had been discussed, this was not such5 a tightly held subject that the DDP would have been circum-6 vented?7 Mr. Tweedy. DDP as far as I was concerned was the8 person with whom the division first discussed the matter on-9 tirely. I don't recall ever having discussed it with Allen10 Dulles. I am sure when I say I am sure I assume Bissell dis-11 cussed it with Allen Dulles but, this was never a matter12 which was between the DCI's office and the Leopoldville13 station insofar as I was aware, and to this day I don't14 believe it ever was.15 Mr. Baron. Just to clarify something we talked about16 earlier when I think we were jumbling two questions together,17 it is your expert opinion, expert in the sense of your knowl-18 edge of the Agency, and your opinion as a participant at that19 time that the testimony, the basic testimony we have receivedEchiriere20 about poisons being delivered to the Congo by Dr. Gottlieb with21 instructions to use them in the assassination of Lumumba,if possible, would be true testimony?22 Mr. Tweedy. Only way I can answer that question, Mr.23 Baron, is to say I see not the slightest reason and do not24 believe that you would have been lied to on this point.# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 41]
TOP SECRET39But, there is nothing in my experience with the Agency which would really bear on that point whatsoever.Mr. Baron. Did you travel to the Congo shortly before the independence of the Congo was declared?Mr. Tweedy. That was my first visit to the Congo as I recall, it was two weeks before independence. I made a long trip through Sub-Saharan Africa which culminated in a drive from Kampala to Sambura and I flow from Sambura, I guess, to Albertville and from Albertville to Leopoldville and that is thefirst time I ever saw Leopoldville.Mr. Dawson. Do you know whether Mr. Hedgman was there at that time?Mr. Tweedy. Mr. Hedgman I am almost sure was not. His predecessor was there. He had many children, I can't remember his name.Mr. Baron. And you left the Congo before independence was declared.Mr. Tweedy. Yes, I was only there for, I suppose I was there for four or five days and I thought I was going to end my whole tour there and whole trip there but eventually I had to go up to the Ivory Coast to settle an unexpected problem.Mr. Baron. For the record would you agree with me that independence was declared about June 30, 1960?Mr. Tweedy. Yes.TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 42]
TOP SECRETMr. Baron. Did you make another trip during which you visited the Congo at some point before the death of Lumumba?Mr. Tweedy. Yes, well, it is this one that I regurgitated finally which must have been as near as the early part of December and which had started with a visit to Rome in the latter part of November, followed by a trip to Nairobi followed by a brief visit to South Africa, then I think Congo. then briefly Brazzaville and home via Europe.Mr. Baron. And this meeting in November '60 in Rome was a meeting of Aftican --Mr. Tweedy. South - Northern African Station Chiefs. The Maghreb and these would have been chiefs of stations of Morocco, Algeria, Libya,Mr. Baron. And the Congo?Mr. Tweedy. No.Mr. Baron. So the Congo Chief of Station would not normally have been --Mr. Tweedy. If he came up he must have come up to see Bissell.Mr. Baron. Richard Bissell was traveling with you on this --Mr. Tweedy. No.Mr. Baron. -- tour to Rome and Nairobi?Mr. Tweedy. He called the meetings. The whole purposeTOP SECRET![logo of top secret]
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 43]
# TOP SECRET41of the exercise was that he wanted to meet a large number ofour new Chiefs of Stations in Africa and rather than make a triparound Africa, which he hardly inad time, he used a devicewhich we often used, which is to hold regional meetings ata central point to which these people could have ready accessand, therefore, it was easy for people on the north Mediter-ranean littoral or South Mediterranean littoral to proceed toRome, and the same way it was easy for East African StationChiefs to proceed to Nairobi, and he had the meetings there,each one two or three days, I suppose.Mr. Baron. Did the Chief of Station in the Congoattend the meeting in Rome?Mr. Tweedy. I am sure he would not. In other words,if he saw Bissell he would have merely come to Rome and haveseen him, but he would have had no reason whatsoever, infact it would have been ridiculous for Bissell to invite aman who didn't belong in the North African meetings and merelyraised the question whether Hedgman was there.Mr. Baron. What region in the CIA organization chartwould the Chief of Station in the Congo belong to?Mr. Tweedy. We change around there. We had inthose days, we had the North African branch, we had theENst African branch, we had a southen African branch, whichincluded South Africa, Rhodesia, probably Portuguese Africamaybe the Congo in those days. Later on the Congo was sort# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 44]
# TOP SECRETof Sui Generis but in that early time I suspect itfell down in Southern Africa but I am not absolutely sure.It might have fallen just in French-speaking West Africa.We always had acFrench West Africa, an English-speakingWest Africa.Mr. Baron. We have received testimony from the Chiefof Station in the Congo at that point that he did come toRome to meet with Richard Bissell and he belives that he alsomet with yourself and Mr. Karamessines at Mr. Karamessines'house.Mr. Tweedy. I doubt if he saw Mr. Karamessines. Itwould only be because Mr. Karamessines was host as Chief ofStation in Rome. But I am sure he was not discussing anypolicy problems with Mr. Karamessines who had absolutely nojurisdiction over them in those days whatsoever.Mr. Baron. That was his testimony, but it was incidental,but if, as he has testified, that he met with Mr. Bissell andyourself, you wouldn't dispute that testimony?Mr. Tweedy. Absolutely not.Mr. Baron. And that would be due to the intensity ofactivity in the Congo at this point and the intensity ofconcern over that activity?Mr. Tweedy. Absolutely. It was obviously becoming moreand more of a commitment of both the U.S. Government andthus the agency. I think leaving Lumumba entirely aside this# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10067.pdf — page 45]
# TOP SECRETwas the main reason that I am sure I went to the Congo at that point was the fact that it obviously was going to become a major personnel drain, if you like, on the Division and a major commitment both at headquarters and in the field, thus it was important I sort of look the thing over.Mr. Baron. Having refreshed your recollection about this meeting between the Chief of Station and Mr. Bissell and yourself in Rome, do you recall what was discussed when you were together?Mr. Tweedy. I can only assume that some of the things that we discussed by cable traffic were discussed.The other thing I am sure must have been discussed was what I would call the general assessment of the Congolese situation and what the station might be required to do, thus the sort of support headquarters was going to have to give the Station.Mr. Baron. Was there any discussion of the assassination of Lumumba or the prospect of --Mr. Tweedy. I would be immensely surprised if it wasn't discussed but I don't recall in what context it was discussed. In fact, I don't believe it wasn't discussed. It was after all on the agenda, as it were, at least I assume it was, at that point.Mr. Baron. The prospect of assassinating Lumumba continued to be on the agenda of the Agency until the point that# TOP SECRET