Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 22]
TOP SECRET311 joined AMUTS after you took over getting general tradecraft?2 Mr. Sarno. No, sir, no, sir.3 Mr. Wides. And to your knowledge it was only report4 writing?5 Mr. Sarno. Well, they trained them in each one of the6 sections, and I didn't train the debriefers, so if a new manwas hired and he was put in a debriefing, he was trained uusually by the Chief of the Debriefing Group, he was put inthere to work along with other debriefers to catch onto thething.11 Mr. Wides. Now your testimony with regard to surveillancetraining, who issued that, or how many people?13 Mr. Sarno. If I am not mistaken, it was four or five.14 Mr. Wides. When you first came, or shortly therafter?15 Mr. Sarno. Yes, it was all at the -- now, now, just one16 second, because I went in surveillance training myself.17 I don't recall whether this four or five whom we trainedin surveillance were trained while I had them or they weretrained before I took them.20. Mr. Wides. Now after that, those four or five, no other21 AMOMS people to your knowledge received any surveillancetraining, is that your testimony?23 Mr. Sarno. That is true, sir.24 Mr. Wides. What about picks and locks?25 Mr. Sarno. Nobody.
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 23]
# TOP SECRETPhone (Area 202) 544-6000321 Mr. Wides. That you know of received --2 Mr. Sarno. Not a single one that I know of.3 Mr. Wides. Did you know anybody at AMUTS who had4 capability of any previous experience at picks and locks,5 surreptitious entry?6 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.7 Mr. Wides. You were not aware of anyone at AMUTS having8 that capability?9 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.10 Mr. Wides. You never discussed it with anyone at thestation?11 Mr. Sarno. Possibly.12 Mr. Wides. Well, let me ask the question, the13 capabilities in the area of surreptitious entry or picking14 locks and no part of AMUTS people in all those years?15 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.16 Mr. Wides. Were the group that were locat d in your17 homestate that were involved in the interception of any410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 2000318 traffic, radio traffic or Cuban, were they under your supervision?19 Mr. Sarno. They were originally under my supervision,20 and later the station brought an individual down from Head-21 quarters and took over that operation.22 Mr. Wides. And when was that?23 Mr. Sarno. Well, the station always had somebody at the24 station who was reviewing all of their work and passingNW 50955 DocId: 32202440 Page 24# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 24]
# TOP SECRET1 instructions. I handled them for a long time.2 Mr. Wides. Until roughly?3 Mr. Sarno. Until roughly the arrival of Mr. Dimmer. You have the date there. I think Mr. Dimmer's the one who brought down the fellow from Headquarters.4 Mr. Wides. And these people received some training regarding the use of *intercept* equipment even if they had some experience as radio operators, isn't that true?5 Mr. Sarno. Sir, I really don't know.6 I know that I never brought an instructor down to train them in the use of radio equipment. These individuals had worked in this work in Cuba before they came out --7 Mr. Wides. In *intercept* work like this?8 Mr. Sarno. In *intercept* work, yes. We had two very brilliant fellows who were the top people in the communications field in Cuba.9 And most of the radio operators had had up to twenty years experience, they were elderly people, and they had been in radio and they could read and they could send it out very well.10 Mr. Wides. So your testimony is that --11 Mr. Sarno. I do not recall them ever having been trained by anybody, in any sense.12 Mr. Wides. Or communications in general?13 Mr. Sarno. Now communications generally, I cannot say that.# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 25]
TOP SECRET341 because several of the AMUTS were trained and several of them2 who were brought out of Cuba, because several of them were in3 Cuba as radio operators and then they came out. They were4 in the Miami group not operating radios, but --5 Mr. Wides. But during your administration of the AMUTS6 group as case officer, you don't recall any training being7 given in communications?8 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.9 Mr. Wides. Do you recall any cooperation of the AMUTS10 people with the FBI and other Federal agencies trying to DF11 and identify suspected illegal wireless operators in Miami,12 Castro agents?13 Mr. Sarno. No, sir, they never did.14 Mr. Wides. AMUTS was not involved in that?15 Mr. Sarno. No, I never heard of any. You must remember16 that when Dimmer came down and brought the fellow, I never saw17 the traffic anymore, but during the period that I was looking18 at the traffic, and I was directing that special intercept19 group as part of the AMUTS, I never once gave them an order20 and never saw any that they did.21 Mr. Wides. When Mr. Shackley was the station chief, did22 you report to him or someone selse?23 Mr. Sarno. I reported to my branch chief.24 Mr. Wides. And what was that branch?25 Mr. Sarno. FI Branch, Foreign Intelligence.TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 26]
# TOP SECRET351 Mr. Wides. And that was the same procedure throughout2 the period?3 Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.4 Mr. Wides. Up til '67?5 Mr. Sarno. Through '67. Well, let's see, now. No, sir.6 Well, it was, because later they made the *AMUTS* group, it7 became a branch, and they brought in a very senior officer to8 be the Branch Chief, and I was considered the Deputy Branch9 Chief. Mr. Dimmer brought in the senior officer.10 Mr. Wides. And you don't feel like you can give us hisname?11 Mr. Sarno. There's no reason not to. He is retired now.Bill Caldwell.1314 Mr. Wides. What contact did you have with a man who15 called himself *San Jenis?*16 Mr. Sarno. He was the Chief of the MI Group, the CubanChief.17 Mr. Wides. *Joaquin San Jenis?*18 Mr. Sarno. *San Jenis.*19 Mr. Wides. And he was your principal contact?20. Mr. Sarno. He was my principal -- he was the head, the21 Cuban head of it.22 Mr. Wides. Are you familiar with the history of the *AMUTS*23 group that he prepared in the late '60's, or worked on?24 Mr Sarno. In the late '60's?
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 27]
TOP SECRET361 Mr. Wides. I thought so. I thought in '66 or '67, that2 is what I meant, that he had worked on the history of the AMUTS3 group.4 Mr. Sarno. Well, no.5 Mr. Wides. Are you familiar with the written history of6 the AMUTS program?7 Mr. Sarno. I have never seen it. I had established the8 policy that every three months he had to write up about the9 group, so all of that, I understand, was all compiled into the10 history, so I don't know.11 Mr. Wides. As part of the Miami Station?12 Mr. Sarno. As part of the Miami Station, so I don't think13 he was told in '66 or '67, start all over and prepare it.14 Mr. Wides. You think it was a consolidation?15 Mr. Sarno. I think it was consolidated over the years.16 Mr. Wides. And this is entitled what, do you know?17 Mr. Sarno. I supposed it would be The History of the18 AMUTS19 Mr. Wides. And you've never seen it?20 Mr. Sarno. I've never seen it.21 Mr. Wides. Do you know if it's at Headquarters in the22 Latin American Division?23 Mr. Sarno. I do not know.24 Mr. Wides. When the Cuban Operations Group was set up --25 let's go back -- in '61 when you took over was approximatelyTOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 28]
# TOP SECRET371 the period when Mr. Harvey was setting up the staff Task Force2 W, is that correct?3 What contact, if any, did you have with Task Force W personnel as distinct from the station itself?5 Mr. Sarno. None whatsoever.6 Mr. Wides. They never came down and spoke to you?7 Mr. Sarno. When I came out of Cuba, when I escaped from Cuba, I was brought up here to Headquarters and debriefed, so9 I imagine that the person that debriefed me, this is in July of '61, I would imagine that individual was part of the Task Force.11 Mr. Wides. I think that was still in the Division. They had not split the Task Force until the winter of '61, '62.14 Mr. Sarno. I see. Well --15 Mr. Wides. But after that when you were in Florida, you had no contact with anyone, to your knowledge, other than the Station personnel?18 Mr. Sarno. Well, I don't know. Occasionally they would call me to Washington to discuss something.20 Mr. Wides. And did you discuss something with people in the Task Force, the Cuban Task Force?22 Mr. Sarno. The Cuban Task Force.23 Mr. Wides. Mr. Cheevers?24 Mr. Sarno. I know Mr. Cheevers, yes.25 Mr. Wides. And did you have any contact with Desmond# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 29]
# TOP SECRET38FitzGerald when it became the Special Activities Staff and he took it over?Mr. Sarno. I know Desmond FitzGerald, or I knew him, and discussed operations with him -- no, I never sat down and discussed an operation. I met him at a party, and that was all.Mr. Wides. And when you came to Washington what kind of discussions would you have about the AMOTS program?Mr. Sarno. I made so many trips to Washington, I say I was also the case officer, I used to travel and recruit people.I do not specifically recall ever being called to Washington to discuss AMOTS.Mr. Wides. But do you recall ever discussing the AMOTS program and the Cubans in it while you were in Washington?Mr. Sarno. Well, if I would come up on a trip and some of the people who were sitting on a desk here who were maintaining the records and everything of the AMOTS, I suppose, yes, they would come around and discuss perhaps the budget or perhaps get them to report in a different manner. I recall on one occasion discussing the set-up of how the AMOTS group prepared the debriefing reports, that they could remove the names from it, instead of filing them inside the report, they put the names on cards so they could be put into a computer machine here.Mr. Wides. In the period when Mr. Shackley and Mr. Dimmer were Station Chiefs, which would be '63 through '65 or so, did# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 30]
# TOP SECRETPhone (Area 202) 544-6000 391 you have any contact with Mr. Sternfeld or Mr. Esterline?2 Mr. Sarno. Which period is this?3 Mr. Wides. '62 to '65 or so.4 Mr. Sarno. Mr. Esterline, who I believe at that time5 was -- Mr. Esterline was --6 Mr. Wides. Was he in Miami?7 Mr. Sarno. No, Mr. Esterline was on the staff he -- I don't know whether it was on the staff of the Task Force or8 who at that time, but I knew Mr. Esterline, first from hisvisits.9 I first met Mr. Esterline when he came to Miami in10 either late '61 or early '62, and I never saw him again until11 he used to make his trips down, and then I understand he was12 assigned overseas.13 Mr. Wides. Did you discuss the AMUTS Program with him?14 Mr. Sarno. At that period?15 Mr. Wides. At any time.16 Mr. Sarno. Well, yes, he was my Station Chief at onetime.17 Mr. Wides. You mean in '68 or '69?18 Mr. Sarno. That's right.19. Mr. Wides. But not prior to that?20 Mr. Sarno. Well, yes, he came down on -- prior to his21 coming down and setting up the new station, he came down and22 discussed with all of us who might remain at our jobs there.23 Mr. Wides. But not in the early period of the '60's?NW 50955 DocId:32202440 Page 31# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 31]
TOP SECRET1 Mr. Sarno. Not in the earlier --2 Mr. Wides. What about Larry Sternfeld?3 Mr. Sarno. No, Mr. Sternfeld was never connected with the Cuban thing until early '68.4 Mr. Wides. Let me go back to the cover companies.5 You say you set up one company for the smaller group, or one notional that was handling the --6 Mr. Sarno. Refugees.7 Mr. Wides. Refugees.8 Can you give us the name of that?9 Mr. Sarno. I don't recall it, sir.10 Mr. Wides. Now, was there a separate company --11 Mr. Sarno. For the principal group.12 Mr. Wides. And what was that?13 Mr. Sarno. Well, you named it off, the Latin American Research --14 Mr. Wides. I thought you said that didn't start until '68?15 Mr. Sarno. No, sir, LASER started in '68.16 Mr. Wides. Latin American Social and Economic Research?17 Mr. Sarno. Is that what that stands for? There was a Latin American Research that they had.18 Mr. Wides. Latin American Research Company?19 Mr. Sarno. Yeah.20 Mr. Wides. What was its cover?
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 32]
TOP SECRET41Mr. Sarno. They were supposed to be doing, researching Latin America, since they had a lot of files, and you could hear a lot of typewriters clicking all over the place.Mr. Wides. And what's your best recollection of the name?Mr. Sarno. My best recollection is Latin American Trade and Research.Mr. Wides. Company?Mr. Sarno. Company.Mr. Wides. Did it have any other names? I think you suggested there were even more than two proprietaries and more than two notionals. Did you have three or four going at one point?Mr. Sarno. Well, it was at one point, at one point there were three of them, if you included the Intercept. The Intercept people had another name.Mr. Wides. But basically there were --Mr. Sarno. There could have been three of them at one time, and basically there were two, yes. One of them was Marine -- that's it. I think the debriefing group came under Marine Research, or something like that.Mr. Wides. When do you first recall being approached about possible use of AMOTO people outside the Miami area in the United States?Mr. Sarno. Use of AMOTO people outside the Miami area?Mr. Wides. In the United States.TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 33]
# TOP SECRET421 Mr. Sarno. Nobody ever approached me on it. They were2 outside of Miami, but the thing that happens is the Chief of3 the Miami group, when an *AM01* would leave4 Mr. Wides. This is *Mr. San Jenis?*5 Mr. Sarno. When one of the *AMUTS* would leave for his6 reasons, they would always maintain contact with *Mr. San Jenis*7 when they would move to any area, and all they would do is to8 report on Cuban exiles in that area.9 Mr. Wides. And would the fact that they were leaving and10 going to another area be reported by you, back through channels11 to Washington for relay to CIA personnel in the area where12 they were going? Was this ever done?13 Mr. Sarno. Yes, it was done, yes.14 Mr. Wides. And was it not uncommon in the case of Cubans15 going to the New York area? Does that happen fairly frequently?16 Mr. Sarno. Well, since it was handled in such a loose17 way, in that it was between *San Jenis* and this individual and18 we didn't have them on the payroll.19 Mr. Wides. You mean you didn't have them on the payroll20 in the sense of employees, they were regularly paid agents,21 informants?22 Mr. Sarno. They were given funds by *San Jenis*, which23 obviously were authorized for sort of like operational expenses.24 Mr. Wides. Excuse me. You're talking about when they25 were in Florida, or when they were moving?
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 34]
TOP SECRET43Mr. Sarno. No, when they were in New York, if they went to New York.Mr. Wides. Well, let's go back.The first question I was asking you was with regard to your relaying to CIA personnel the fact that someone who had been at AMOTS in Florida was going elsewhere and you said that that happened, and then I asked you -- we will come to the operational relationships in a moment -- how frequently that happened in regard to people coming to New York. For example, I assume that there were a fair number of Cubans generally in there for one or two members of AMOTS who went up to New York during the course of all of these years.Mr Sarno. No, sir, no, sir.Mr. Wides. Would you say several dozen or a dozen?Mr. Sarno. So far as I recall, there was only one that ever went up there, and he in turn collected two or three of his other friends around him who formed a little nucleus, but there was only one AMOT that went.Mr. Wides. What about other cities? What other cities do you recall people went to?Mr. Sarno. In the United States?Mr. Wides. Yes.Washington?Mr. Sarno. No, sir. San Juan, Puerto Rico, and that's all, in the United States.TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 35]
TOP SECRET44Mr. Wides. Chicago?Mr. Sarno. No, sir.Mr. Wides. Anyplace on the West Coast or the Southwest?Mr. Sarno. No, sir.Mr. Wides. Boston?Mr. Sarno. No, sir.Mr. Wides. So you only recall persons who had been intelling -- why don't we refer to him as San Jenis-that they were going to another city as being New York and San Juan?Mr. Sarno. New York and San Juan are the only two I ever recall they ever had any MUTSkor ex-AMUTS or people that had been in the organization went.Mr. Wides. Now when they went and they recruited other people, was that San Jenis suggestion or under his supervision?Mr. Sarno. They usually collected a group around people that they trusted.Mr. Wides. Was that up to San Jenis supervision and direction?Mr. Sarno. He directed them to do it, yes. I didn't even know the individual, I never met him. It's one individual.Mr. Wides. Did he speak to you about the fact that he was going to do this, Mr. Sam Jenia?Did he consult with you on it?Mr. Sarno. Well, I believe it came up -- I knew the fellowTOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 36]
TOP SECRET451 was leaving, because he was taken off of the role as being in2 Miami, and we may have, discussed his being used while he was in3 New York in case anything ever came up.4 Mr. Wides. Do you recall discussing it?5 Mr. Sarno. Well, yes, we did discuss it, obviously it6 was discussed, because this fellow came up with a big thing7 when they were going to bazooka the UN building.8 Mr. Wides. Was this one of the Novo brothers -- or was9 either of the Novo brothers in *AWUTS* in Florida? I believe10 this is the name of the two people who were arrested at the11 time.12 Mr. Sarno. No, the *AMUTH* that was in New York is the one13 that discovered the plot and we informed the Bureau and the14 Bureau moved in on it.15 Mr. Wides. You informed the Bureau?16 Mr. Sarno. We informed the Bureau of that shelling of17 the UN, and it was the *AMOTS*, this one *ANUP* up there who got18 the information.19 Mr. Wides. And he relayed that to someone in New York, or20 back, through *San Jenis*, to you?21 Mr. Sarno. He relayed it to *San Jenis* and we -- he22 informed us, and we in turn advised our base in New York who23 in turn advised the Bureau.24 Mr. Wides. Which base is that, the Domestic Operations or25 the Security Office?TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 37]
# TOP SECRET46tape BaPhone (Area 202) 544-60001 Mr. Sarno. Domestic Operations.2 (Discussion off the record.)3 Mr. Wides. With regard to the information received from4 the former AMUT in New York about the plot to shoot a bazooka5 at the UN, was Mr. Shackley the Station Chief at the time you6 received that information?7 Mr. Sarno. I don't recall the date, but the date was8 between early '62, which it had to have been, and -- because9 Shackley left which I think was in July of '64 and that would10 have meant he was the Chief of Station.11 Mr. Wides. Well, didn't he just indicate before while we12 were taking a rbreak that you had recalled that Shackley was13 the Station Chief?14 Mr. Sarno. I don't recall whether he was exactly the15 Station Chief or not. I can't place the date with what had16 happened, so I know I went back to the Station and I reported17 it, and it in turn was reported. Now, if I told it to Shackley18 or if I told it to Dimmer, if I told it to the two different19 Branch Chiefs that were there at the time, I do not recall.20 Mr. Wides. Now would that report be in the MOTS file?21 Mr. Sarno. In the history?22 Mr. Wides. No, in the file, the project file.23 If we got that date when that took place, the date when24 the Agency had the information, would your report and report of25 the branch or station in Florida be in the AMUTS project fileNW 50955 DocId: 32202440 Page 38# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 38]
# TOP SECRET1 or would it be in some other file?2 Mr. Sarno. I don't think that they maintain a chrono on3 AMUTS! It was voluminous. Once they were processed by the4 Agency and put into our communications channel, be it by5 dispatch or by cable, I don't think they retained all of those6 tons of files.7 Mr. Wides. Do you recall who the FI Branch Chief was at8 the time?9 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.10 If you give me a date that I know --11 Mr. Wides. I believe it was '64.12 Mr. Sarno. If it was early 1964, then Mr. Shackley was13 there. If it was late 1964 when Dimmer came, then there was14 another branch, so there were two branch chiefs.15 Mr. Wides. Now did you relay this information, did you say, to Washington, or directly to New York?17 Mr. Sarno. Sir, I never handled communications.18 Mr. Wides. Well, I didn't mean you --19 Mr. Sarno. If I write it up, I give it to my branch chief20 and my branch chief in turn sends it out. But to me, it would seem logical, knowing communications, that we would send the22 cable directly to New York with info to Washington.23 Mr. Wides. Were you ever told that communications had been made to New York? You said before --25 Mr. Sarno. Yes, I was told, because I think there may have# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 39]
# TOP SECRET1 been a cable or something coming down and giving the boys2 credit for the thing.3 Mr. DeMarco. Do you recall now the name of this one4 AMUTS who went to New York?5 Mr. Sarno. His name was Enrique.6 Mr. Wides. Could you spell that?7 Mr. Sarno. E-n-r-i-q-u-e, that is his first name.8 I don't recall his last name.9 Mr. DeMarco. Lazarus?10 Mr. Sarno. No. Lazarus is not a last name.11 Mr. Wides. How many people did he have working with him?12 Mr. Sarno. Sir, I don't recall, but I know there was more13 than one or two.14 Mr. Wides. And would San Jenis give you reports that he15 sent down to San Jenis?16 Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.17 Mr. Wides. And what did the reports talk about?18 Mr. Sarno. They were on Cuban exiles, groups, collection19 of money, Alpha 66 and people of that group who were up in20 New York City.21 Mr. Wides. Was it your impression at the time that this22 group had no contact with any CIA offices in New York?23 Mr. Sarno. Which group, sir?24 Mr. Wides. The group that this fellow Enrique had.25 Mr. Sarno. Had no contacts with anybody else?
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 40]
# TOP SECRET491 Mr. Wides. With any CIA offices in New York. Was your2 impression that the only contact that he had with CIA was all3 the way back through Miami?4 Mr. Sarno. I believe that was the case, yes, sir.5 Mr. Wides. You had no understanding?6 Mr. Sarno. Well, obviously once this thing came up, we7 put this fellow in contact with somebody in the base up there8 who in turn delivered them to the Bureau.9 Mr. Wides. And this was the Domestic Operations Base, not10 the Security Office?11 Mr. Sarno. Domestic Operations.12 Mr. Wides. Now thereafter, did they keep contact wit-13 this group?14 Mr. Sarno. I cannot recall.15 Mr. Wides. Did you continue after that incident to get16 reports through San Jenis?17 Mr. Sarno. I believe so, yes.18 Mr. Wides. With no indication whether they were also in19 touch with the Agency?20. Mr Sarno. No, sir.21 Mr. Wides. You weren't curious, or did you ever inquire?22 Mr. Sarno. Well, I would believe it to be that they were23 not in contact with anybody up there, because if the report24 were to come down, they would probably have indicated in their25 report that they had passed this information on.
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 41]
TOP SECRET50Mr. Wides. No, I mean after that, after they were put in touch with the base.Mr. Sarno. That's what I was speaking of. Many reports that came there after, they would have indicated that it had been passed, and I don't recall ever reading a report from them that he had passed the information on to any contact up there.Mr. Wides. Do you recall any instance in which the Agency asked, through you, and in turn through Mr. Jenis that particular people in New York be watched or investigated?Mr. Sarno. No, sir.Mr. Wides. How would they decide what groups or what individuals to penetrate or keep under surveillance?Mr. Sarno. Well there were the active groups. This fellow used to come down to Miami and he would talk to San Jenis and San Jenis would tell him, here is people here who are talking about collecting money, about a supposed operation, how much money are they getting for itMr. Wides. Where would he get that information from, from you?Mr. Sarno. Get what?Mr. Wides. Where would San Jenis get thatMr. Sarno. The MI group knew more about what was going on in Cuban operations in the Miami area than we did, so most of the information we obtained was through them.