Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 33]
TOP SECRET1 Mr. Johnston. My question to you is, of partial signifi-2 cance, and that is the fact that that cable says that Oswald3 "allegedly lives in home of Foreign Minister for two months."4 My question is that this allegation that he lived in5 the home of the Soviet foreign minister has never been6 substantiated through any other source, and I wonder whether7 you have a recollection of going back to DRE to see where8 they got that information.9 Mr. Halley. No, I don't have a recollection of going back10 on that specific cable.11 Mr. Johnston. Do you have any recollection of headquarter12 ever coming back to you and saying what is the hource of that13 Mr. Halley. Xyou know, I don't see how you can expect de14 to remember that, really. You know, in the course of a day,15 a normal day, I might read a thousand cables.16 Senator Schweiker. Well, does the fact that he might17 have lived in a Soviet foreign minister's home for two months18 ring a bell?19 Mr. Holley. Well, you know, showing me that cable, t20 have to accept the cable at face value. That is what it says.21 I acknowledge that is what it says. The cable says we got in22 from the DRE. I sccept it on face value. That incident,23 the foreign minister's residence, does not ring a bell wick so.24 Senator Schweiker. So you wouldn't know ofthand where we25 allegation came from.TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 34]
TOP SECRET1 Mr. Halley. No, I don't know. We would have to go back2 to them and their criteria for carding might not coincide with3 ours. In other words, many of these Cuban groups were prone4 to act on rumors. They were prone to publicize things, that5 were not true. The DRE had a record of publicizing, embroideri,6 elaborating on things, and therefore we treated a lot of their7 material with caution.8 Senator Schweiker. Right.9 Go ahead, Paul.10 Mr. Wallach. Generally, now, and I'm not asking for11 specific conversations at all. I think it is entirely true,12 It is a caveat throughout this entire thing, we are talking13 about 13 years ago, millions of matters ago. But generally, do14 you recall whether or not the FBI, the people you dealt with15 had any general knowledge of the CIA's capability inside16 Cuba to get information?17 Mr. Halley. Well, I think it would be fair to say that18 the FBI knew the kinds of operations that we were running, and19 I think they could have drawn certain conclusions about, you20 know, what our capability might have been. That is, let me21 put this in perspective. I'm talking about the people in22 Miami. Occasionally when I would come to Washington for23 conferences, I would meet somebody like Papich. We happened24 to be, you know, friends, and I would talk to him and say25 how are you doing, how are things going, what kind of activitiTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 35]
## TOP SECRET1 are you involved in?2 Papich probably have a feel for the scope of our activity,3 but whether he would have an appreciation of the kinds of4 specific sources, I doubt it.5 Mr. Wallach. In other words, you would doubt whether or6 not anyone in the Bureau would have known whether or not you7 had an extremely high level source in Castro's entourage.8 Mr. Halley. I doubt that they would know that.9 Mr. Wallach. At any time, do you recall after the assassi-10 nation, anyone from the Bureau, even from the Miami field office11 or from headquarters, through Papich, through your headquarters12 contacting you to determine whether or not you had the capability13 to conduct investigations on Cuba?14 Mr. Halley. No, I don't recall that.15 Do you want me -- can we go off the record for a minute?16 Senator Schweiker. Yes.17 (Discussion off the record.)18 Mr. Wallach. Let's go back on the record.19 Were you known to the FBI under your real name or under20 an alias?21 Mr. Halley. No, I was known to the FBI under my true22 name. If you are wondering about whether the name is going to23 show up in the FBI records, I think they always would, in the24 writing of reports, do not use the true names. In other words25 they say, you know, source or confidential informant, or A-1## TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 36]
TOP SECRET1. whatever it was called, and that is the way they write their reports.2. Mr. Wallach. Let me ask you this. I realize this was a subject matter that was covered in your previous testimony.3. I deem it of relevance, and I would like to ask you here, were you aware on November 22nd, 1963, that the CIA had at some point4. in time prior to that date itself engaged in attempts to assassinate or used others in attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro?5. Mr. Halley. No. I think the basic answer to that question is no, but if you looked at my previous testimony, I previously said that in the case of this Cuban comandante over the years,6. I had acquired some knowledge of the fact that he existed and he was being run by my colleagues in Washington, but that was7. was not known to me as a clearcut assassination operation. In other words, at one point in time I knew that Des Fitzgerald8. was going to meet this fellow. I knew at one point in time there was going to be a meeting in Spain. I knew at one point9. in time that we were putting caches in to support this particular fellow. I never knew whether the caches were recovered, and10. things like that. But the fundamental answer is no.11. I have also previously testified that on some of the activities that were being engaged in by Mr. Harvey, that I12. was not knowledgeable on, you know, the thrust of those activities.13. Mr. Wallach. Did your own sources in the Cuban community?TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 37]
TOP SECRETtell you that the, what we call the underworld, the Mafia,was engaging in attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro?Mr. Halley. I don't recall any such reports, but I'veexplained this, and let me go again on this, that the word "assassination" was part of the ambience of thattime. In other words, every Cuban that you talked to, nobody could be involved in Cuban operations without having hadsome sort of a discussion at some time with some Cuban who said, gee, we ought to knock this guy off, or I'd shoot him ifI had the chance, or the way to create a revolution is to shoot Fidel and Raul, and then go down through the wholeproposition. So the fact that somebody would talk about assassination just wasn't anything that was really out of civordinary at the time. It was part of the climate. These were professional revolutionaries in some cases, men who hadbeen in the 26th of July movement and left, and come in and become exiles, and had been exiles two or three times.Revolution and assassination was a way of life for them.Mr. Wallach. Did you have any doubt in your mind thatCastro was aware in November 1963 that the CIA was supporting those revolutionaries?Mr. Halley. Supporting revolutionaries.Mr. Wallach. Right.Mr. Halley. Yes, I think Castro knew that the United States was in touch with groups like the DRE, that peopleTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 38]
TOP SECRET1 were being infiltrated by CIA into Cuba, because they apprehended2 some of them.3 Mr. Wallach. Groups that were trying to overthrow4 Castro.5 Mr. Halley, but he had to assume that if they were coming6 in, they were setting up guerilla forces in places like7 Oriente Province, and Pinar del Rio, that yes, they were going8 to work to overthrow him, and he had to know that.9 Mr. Wallach. Were you aware of any other country that10 the United States Government was at that time attempting to11 overthrow the government of, and we can get your answer of12 the record if it is positive.13 Mr. Hailey, weil wait a minute. Would you rephra14 that? I'm not sure I follow that particular one.15 Mr. Wallach. You came back to me with the word assassi16 nation, said it was part of the ambience of the times, that17 that might have been discoused of one time or another, My18 belief, as a layman, hau biển I don't see that much of a19 distinction between sonding someone In who is going to try20 foment a revolution, the result of which would probably be21 the death of Cistro as opposed to sending someone in to-22 don't want to get into this, but I think that may have bew23 sonmaching that you were bouding on24 In any ovat, are you aware of any other country th25 the U.S. at that the was directing attempts to overthrow thTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 39]
TOP SECRET1 government of?2 Mr. Halley. No. Off the top of my head, no, but I3 de want to come back to your point. I do think there is a4 difference in the Latin American revolutionary sense of plotting5 a revolution against somebody as opposed to plotting a6 specific assassination operation against a particular individual.7 You know, maybe we have an honest difference of opinion on that8 point, but my view differs from yours.9 Mr. Wallach. All right, let me continue on.10 You also mentioned before that some of the people, the11 people that you felt were making general policy, were Helms,12 Bobby Kennedy, at one point Ed Lansdale.13 Mr. Halley. Uh-huh.14 Mr. Wallach. Did the Cubans know that? Did the Cubans15 know that Bobby Kennedy was involved?16 Mr. Halley. I don't know that they were at that point in17 time, but clearly at later points of time when the Brigade 250618 returned, yes, they knew that Bobby Kennedy was in the Cuban19 policy affairs. Leaders of the Brigade like Artline, Oliva,20 the San Juan brothers and others were brought to Washington21 for lunches, dinners with, I guess at that time it was the22 Attorney General, because there were various phases in this23 thing.24 Yes, they knew he was involved in Cuban affairs.25 Mr. Wallach. Are you familiar with an article that appeaTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 40]
# TOP SECRETIn I think it was the September 7th issue of the New Orleans Times-Picayune, among other newspapers, which reflected an interview Castro had with Daniel Harker of the AP, within which he said in substance that U.S. leaders would be in danger if they continued in their attempts, I think he used the word "eliminate".Mr. Halley. Yes, I'm familiar with the general article, yes, but I can't tell you with certainty that I was aware of that article at the time that it appeared. In other words you're asking about 1961, did you say it appeared?Mr. Wallach. September 7, 1963.Mr. Halley. I cannot swear that I knew about it in 1963. I since know that that article has been referred to a number of times.Mr. Johnston. Let me just state for the record that I did not bring the WAVE cable on it, but WAVE did pass to headquarters the gist of that article as it appeared in Miami articles, passed that information to headquarters either on the 23rd or 24th of November because the FBI was inquiring about exile groups claiming that Castro had threatened Kennedy anyway, so that at least WAVE had knowledge right after the assassination of that article.Mr. Halley. All right. The reason I qualify my response... that may have been a cable that would have been released by some member of my staff. It didn't necessarily follow that...# TOP SECRET![photo of NW#:55510 DocId:32423435]
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 41]
TOP SECRET1 was a WAVE cable, that I personally released it. I don't happen2 to recall it, but I am familiar with the article and the thrust3 of it.4 Mr. Wallach. I realize again you may not have been famili5 with it at that time, or even before the assassination, but6 what - and I'm not asking specifically for what facts, but7 you have testified previously that - I don't want to paraphrase8 your testimony, it speaks for itself - that you had no reason9 to believe that the Cubans were involved in the assassination10 of President Kennedy.11 Mr. Halley. Yes, at the time that the incident occurred,12 and when Oswald was apprehended, I had no reason to believe13 that the Cubans were involved.14 Mr. Wallach. Taking the other side of the coin, what15 evidence was there in your mind that they were not involved?16 Mr. Halley. Well, because we didn't have any evidence17 that they were.18 Mr. Wallach. Did you conduct any investigation at all to19 determine if there was any involvement?20 Mr. Halley. I didn't have any charter for that. I know,21 people were arrested. The FBI and the authorities in that22 particular, in Dallas, were pursuing the case. I had no23 charter to pursue that.24 Mr. Wallach. Did you ever ask Mr. Helms whether or not25 you could conduct such an investigation, or did he ever tellTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 42]
TOP SECRET1 you that you could or could not?2 Mr. Halley. No, I answered that, that I don't recall3 any such conversation where Helms told me I could or could not.4 I mean, this was not a subject that was being discussed.5 I think the frame of reference at the time was that this6 was not a jurisdictional case for the CIA to pursue.7 Mr. Wallach. You mean, the President of the United States8 is murdered, and it is not within the jurisdiction of the CIA9 to determine if a foreign country is involved?10 Mr. Halley. Not if the investigation is run by the11 FBI and a person is apprehended, and one is going to assume12 that he is going to be interrogated, investigative leads are13 going to be obtained from it, and a particular agency has got14 the action responsibility. Under those circumstances, my15 perception of the various rules is that CIA performs a support16 function. In other words, if you are asked for a name17 trace, or traces on telephone numbers, physical descriptions,18 you know, license plates, whatever it may be, you respond.19 Mr. Wallach. Who gave you those instructions, that20 CIA was only going to have a support function?21 Mr. Halley. That is my perception.22 Mr. Wallach. Who told you that?23 Mr. Halley. Nobody has to tell you that. You're an24 intelligence human being. You're allowed to think for yourself25 and you can come to logical conclusions.TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 43]
TOP SECRET1 Mr. Wallach. Did somebody tell youtthat the F31 had2 primary jurisdiction?3 Mr. Halley. No, but the FBI has primary jurisdiction,.4 this is something we are taught in our training coursen, in5 the United States, you know, for cases in the United States.6 For instance, my explanation of this -- I gave you an explanation.7 of the counterintelligence case in the States where we found8 a Cuban agent in the United States,and the jurisdiction of the9 case reverted to the FBI.10 Senator Schweiker. De you want to make a comment here,11 Seymour?12 Mr. Bolten. I'd like to go off the record.13 Senator Schweiker. All right.14 (Discussion off the record.)15 Senator Schweiker. Let's go back on the record.16 Mr. Wallach. I have one or two more questions on this.17 Senator Schweiker. All right.18 Mr. Wallach. Did at any time during the existence of19 Warren Commission, do you recall and I'm not asking for20 Specific event, but do you recall having guy type of ind21 relationship with that Commission, in essence, responding to22 requests that were made of the Agency and they asking you fou23 general information?24 Mr. Halley. Would you give me the dates of the Warren25 Commission?TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 44]
TOP SECRET1 Mr. Wallach. December 1, '63 --2 Mr. Halley. December 1, '63 to when?3 Mr. Wallach. September of '64.4 Mr. Halley. No. No.5 Mr. Wallach. Do you have any reason today to believe6 that there was Cuban involvement in the assassination of7 President Kennedy?8 Mr. Halley. I have no hard information on that.9 Mr. Wallach. Do you have any hearsay information?10 Mr. Halley. No. I mean, hearsay information, what11 constitutes hearsay? Criel wrote an article in the Washington12 Post, you know, suggesting that there is some -- is that13 hearsay evidence? I mean, I don't happen to believe his thesis.14 Mr. Wallach. I am asking you if you have any belief as an15 expert?16 Mr. Halley. As an expert I only deal in facts, in other17 words not -- what I consider hard intelligence, I don't have18 any hard intelligence.19 Mr. Johnston, Other than the FBI, did you have a liaison20 with other investigative agencies?21 Mr. Halley. Yes, I did.22 Mr. Johnston. Did you have an investigative relationship23 with the U.S. Customs Department, specifically a Customs24 agent who was on detail to CIA?25 Mr. Halley. Yes, we had a relationship with a CustomsTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 45]
TOP SECRET1 Agent by the name of Caesar DeEstado wasdetalled on an arrangement between CIA which was in being whenI came to the station. His primary function was to bestationed in Key West, Florida. He generally covered the areafrom Key West to either Marathon or it could have been --either Marathon or El Marado, and his tasks were, toFind Cubans who were coming into the United States in smallboats, and to ensure that he took a quick look at them tosee if any one of them could be turned around to be used asintelligence sources. If they couldn't be used as intelligencesources, he skimmed off the perishable information that wasreally critical, and then put it into our system. He alsoflagged the knowledgeable people for further exploitation byus when the went to the Opa Loca briefing center. He alsopicked up equipment, that is documents from these people,weapons, clothing, so that we could use authentic clothing toequip our own teams.Mr. Johnston. Did he also stay in contact with certainCuban exiles?Mr. Halley. He did stay in contact with Cuban exilegroups because it was part of his job to know when they weregoing out so that we didn't have these uncoordinated problems.In other words, at one point we tried to stop them. To alsoknow who was in the area running a training camp orsomething like that, so that our operations would not beTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 46]
# TOP SECRET1 compromised by coming into a camp next to where some exiled2 Cubans were already working.3 Mr. Johnston. And did he let me back up. First, have4 you participated in the Agency's response to the Committee’s5 written inquiry about this?6 Mr. Halley. Well, to this extent, somebody in the Agency7 called me and said the Committee had a request in for some8 data on a Customs officer. Nobody could remember his name. I9 happened to remember his name. I said Caesar DeEstado was the10 guy's name. I don't remember how to spell it. Phonetically11 I think it is as follows, and try to find a file on it. And12 so to that extent, yes, I am aware that there was some sort of13 a response being prepared. I did not see the response. I14 don't know what it says.15 Mr. Johnston. Do you know whether he was asked either by16 you or by anybody in WAVE to contact Cuban exiles after the17 assassination to see what knowledge they might have?18 Mr. Halley. Well, let me try to clarify that, I was19 not his contact point. In other words, I was a manager of a20 large operation.21 Mr. Johnston. I understand that. So did anybody under22 your control contact him?23 Mr. Halley. His point of contact was in Key West. Periodi-24 cally he would either come to Miami or meet with one of our25 people, and once every three months or something like that.# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 47]
TOP SECRET1 would have a meeting with him to review broad trends, either2 in Key West or in Miami. I never taked him with this type of3 thing. I don't recall anybody else in the station tasking him4 to conduct an investigation of Cuban groups relative to the5 President's assassination. But as we were putting together6 mood cables -- you showed me an example of one there -- it is7 conceivable that he is the kind of person that we would have8 talked to to find out what was going on in the Cuban community9 at that time.10 Mr. Johnston. Do you know whether he did in fact contact11 Cuban exiles about it? Do you have any knowledge of his contact with12 Cuban exiles?13 Mr. Halley. I don't have any firsthand knowlodge.14 Mr. Johnston. Do you have any knowledge whatsoever?15 Mr. Halley. I would have to say firsthand, I don't16 recall any information of any subordinate of mine reporting me17 that he had done that.18 Mr. Johnston. You testified earlier that you met with19 Mr. Fitzgerald at some point, and what he told you at that20 time that he made contact personally with a Cuban agent, and21 named AHLASH?22 Mr. Halley. I think my testimony was something along the23 line, that I had a conversation with Fitzgerald, that he was24 going to meet a Cuban source. My recollection was that the25 name may have come up, that he was asking my opinion and adv.TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 48]
TOP SECRET1 as to whether this would be a useful thing to do. And as I2 have testified before, my recollection is I told him I thought3 I would find this conversation interesting, but I didn't think4 it was worth his doing because he had too high a profile, and5 it would not be a good thing to do from the point of view of6 attribution in relationship to a clandestine agent.7 Mr. Johnston. And Let me go through what you have just8 told me..9 First of all, was this agent, when be used the true10 name, was it the agent whose cryptonym is AMLASH?11 Mr. Halley. Yes. Subsequently I have concluded that that12 is who it is.13 Mr. Johnston. Did ho tell you of indicate that a meetin14 between him and ANLASH was proposed?15 Mr. Halley. Well, he was considering a meeting with16 ANLASH, with this particular person.17 Mr. Johnston. Do you have a recollection as to what18 timeframe your discussion with Mr. Fitzgerald was?19 Mr. Halley. No, I don't.20 Mr. Johnston. Knowing that Mr. Fitzgerald met with21 AMLASH on October 29th, 1963, does that refresh your recollection22 as to whether the conversation took place earlier in 1963?23 Mr. Halley. I am sorry, I can't narrow that down for24 you.25 Mr. Johnston. But you advised against the meeting.TOP SECRETNW#: 55510 DocId: 32423455
[157-10014-10047.pdf — page 49]
TOP SECRETMr. Halley. Right.Mr. Johnston. You ware knowledgeable, I take it, of the Agency's dealing with AMLASH from time to time, as part of JMWAVE.Mr. Halley. Yes. I mentioned to you mariler that we had put in caches which were scheduled to be retrieved by AMLASH or his people, so yes, I knew that we were providing support to an agent in Cuba, but that was not unusual because No Ker putting in a larga number of caches for a wide variety of people who were being run out of Washington, over and out of ather stations..NZ. Jolastion. And you may have testified about this before but was it common to drop caches of rifles or telescopic sigit for agents?Mr. Halley, I would not recessarily have known what was in each cache.Mr. Jomston. Well, was it common to drop, to your knнам во to drop rifles with telescopic sights?Mr. Halley. Well, I think the thing that would be opinion would be telescopic sights. Many of our bacnes were Houpons coches. A large bulk of the caches were rifles of end kind or another, we put in the FAL, the Belgian FAL, put in is. We put in cabines, we put in Springfields, pat Lu Thompson submachine gans. I think if I were looking a cache list and I saw a telescope on it matched up with aTOP SECRET![photo of a cache list]