Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 1]
# TOP SECRETVol. 3 of 2Unauthorized Disclosure Subject to Criminal SanctionsCubaThe United States SenateR654Report of ProceedingsSSCI COMINORITY DRAWLAL ITIESCIA HAS NO OBJECTION TO DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT AS SANITIZED![Signature] 16 MAR 94(1)(A)(1)(B)Friday, June 25, 1975Washington, D. C.(Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over to the Committee for destruction)WARD & PAUL410 FIRST STREET, S. E.WASHINGTON, D. C. 20003(202) 544-6000TOP SECRETNW 50955 DocId:32202440 Page 2
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 2]
TOP SECRETWARD & PAULPhone (Area 202) 544-6000CONTENTSA12 TESTIMONY OF3 Alfred J. Sarno45678910111213141516171819202122232425410 First Street, S. E., Washington, D.C. 20003NW 50955 DocId:32202440 Page 3TOP SECRETPAGE3
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 3]
TOP SECRET1 for *AMUTS*?2 Mr. Sarno. I think from December, 1961 or January, 19623 to September, 1967. Then from June -- August, 1968 to4 September, 1969.5 Mr. Wides. Now let me go back, and can you give us a6 very brief summary of your positions with the Agency prior to7 that? I don't mean detailed as to what you were doing.8 Mr. Sarno. I joined the Agency in September of 1951.9 Mr. Wides. Yes?10 Mr. Sarno. I was assigned to three countries before I11 hit Florida.12 Mr. Wides. All in the Western Hemisphere Division?13 Mr. Sarno. All in the Western Hemisphere.14 Mr. Wides. So you had rather long stations in each of15 those, three or four years?16 Mr. Sarno. (Nods in the affirmative)17 Mr. DeMarco. When did you become an American citizen?18 Mr. Sarno. I was born in Ohio.19 Mr. DeMarco. Had you been stationed with Mr. Phillips20 in Cuba before you came to Miami, or were you in Cuba before21 you came to Miami?22 Mr. Sarno. Yes.23 Mr. Wides. And that is when Mr. Noel was the Chief?24 Mr. Sarno. Jim Noel was the Chief.25 Mr. Wides. And you had contact with Mr. Phillips then?TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 4]
# TOP SECRETMr. Wides. You never heard of any plots, nor of any arrested people attempting to shoot a bazooka when he was giving a speech at Havana Stadium?Mr. Sarno. No, sir.Mr. Wides. Let me go to the period when you went to Florida.When you first came here, that was before Station Chief *Noel* had moved the whole station to Miami?Mr. Sarno. *Noel* wasn't there. When I arrived in Florida, *Noel* was not then -- no, sir, he was not the station chief.Mr. Wides. Who was the station chief?Mr. Sarno. I don't think I should give you his name. I don't know. You have the rest of all of them, but I can't recall --I can state that there were two station chiefs between *Noel* and Shackley, three of them, in fact.Mr. Wides. Shackley came in when, 1963?Mr. Sarno. '62.Mr. Wides. When in '62?Mr. Sarno. I think the spring of '62 is when it was.Mr. Wides. When was he replaced by Mr. Dimmer?Mr. Sarno. If I am not mistaken, it was in '64, I think. June, July, I think, something like that, of '64.Mr. Wides. And then Mr. Dimmer was replaced in '66 by Mr. Hines, Paul Hines?# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 5]
# TOP SECRETPhone (Area 202) 544-6000111 Mr. Sarno. Hines2 Mr. Wides. And then Mr. Esterline replaced Mr. Hines,3 or was there someone between?4 Mr. Sarno. Mr. Esterline did not replace Mr. Hines.5 Nobody replaced Hines, because they closed up the station.6 Mr. Wides. We understand that the station was operating7 very recently.8 Mr. Sarno. Well, I'm not saying -- you see, the station9 you spoke to before, you spoke of, went out of business in10 June of 1960 when Mr. Hines left.11 Mr. Wides. I see.12 Now, what was the relationship between yourself and the13 station? Administratively, and in terms of reporting, when14 you first went down there.15 Mr. Sarno. When I first went down there, I was outside.16 I believe it was concerning clearances to get me into the17 station, because I had never been working in a station before,18 so there were special clearances. So at that time, those two19 months you're speaking of, I attended a course and I may have20 been sent out once or twice to interview a Cuban refugee or21 one of our agents who had left Cuba.22 Mr. Wides. And then you set up the AMOTS program? Did23 you start that project, or was that started when you came in?24 Mr. Sarno. It had been started, the nucleus had been25 formed at that time.NW 50955 DocId: 32202440 Page 6TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 6]
TOP SECRET13Mr. Wides. And except where there's a question of an agent under cover who would be possibly exposed to harm or that kind of thing in regard to the mention of other Agency people, certainly at the level of Mr. Shackley or other officials, Mr. Dimmer, and so forth, that the general procedures have been that people at the Agency or retirees have not refused to disclose names.Now, you certainly have your rights --Mr. Sarno. No, sir. I am not questioning you, or anything, except I've been in this business a long time and I've never mentioned anybody's name. Now if somebody were to tell me, if Seymour Bolton were to tell me that I could tell you all the names of all my supervisors and everything, it's perfectly all right. But I've never mentioned a name and I feel that I shouldn't mention a name.Mr. Wides. Well, we may have to take a break and do that, but let me go on.With regard to the AMOTS program, the AMOTS Cubans were not contract agents of the station, is that correct?Mr. Sarno. No, sir.Mr. Wides. They were proprietary employees essentially of LASER, essentially?Mr. Sarno. LASER was a group -- that proprietary was set up in September of 1968. Prior to that time they ware a bunch of Cubans just living down in Miami.TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 7]
TOP SECRET141 Mr. Wides. And what was their relationship to the Agency2 through you?3 Mr. Sarno. They were a group of Cuban exiles who were4 being funded to collect information, intelligence information,5 on Cuba.6 Mr. Wides. They were paid agents?7 Mr. Sarno. They were paid agents.8 Mr. Wides. Some of them received a fairly sophisticated9 training in tradecraft, in some cases communications intercept10 operations with regard to a station in Florida, and so forth,11 is that not correct?12 Mr. Sarno. Sophisticated equipment, yes, sir.13 Mr. Wides. And tradecraft, general tradecraft training?14 Mr. Sarno. General tradecraft training, yes, sir.15 Communications.training -- well, most of them weren't16 communicators, so they required very little if they did17 receive training.18 Mr. Wides. Would that put them in a little bit more19 official status of some sort, whatever the category is called,20 than simply being a paid informant?21 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. They were just like paid informants22 except we provided them funds to operate with.23 They are no more -- they are not contract, we did not24 have then under contract.25 Mr. Wides. But they would still get training?
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 8]
# TOP SECRET15Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.Mr. Wides. And the program first operated where? Where did you physically locate? Were you at the University of Miami, at the Naval Air Station at the begining?Mr. Sarno. No, sir.Mr. Wides. Where were you at first?Mr. Sarno. Are you speaking of our station? Our station was physically at the Air Station, but these Cubans did not know where the station was.Mr. Wides. And you just contacted them separately?Mr. Sarno. They had houses that they rented and they worked out of different houses, and there were many of them, so I can't recall them.Mr. Wides. Did you have an office facility apart from the station?Mr. Sarno. Myself?Mr. Wides. Yes.Mr. Sarno. On one occasion, for a very short period, I had an office.Mr. Wides. Where was the Zenith Corporation?Mr. Sarno. The Zenith Corporation was located on the south campus of Miami.Mr. Wides. Apart from the station?Mr. Sarno. No, sir.Mr. Wides. That was a cover?# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 9]
TOP SECRET16Mr. Sarno. That was the station.Mr. Wides. And what was the mission and purpose of AMUTS when you first started out, as indicated in the project outline?Mr. Sarno. They were to collect intelligence on Cuba, debrief refugees and provide bodies for any possible operations required by the station.Mr. Wides. They were to debrief refugees?Mr. Sarno. Debrief refugees, collect and evaluate, maintain records.Mr. Wides. Was there a division of the AMUTS members into two groups, with only a small group involving the debriefing of Cuban refugees?Mr. Sarno. Well, it wasn't too small a group, but if you would speak of the whole organization overall, yes, it was a small group.Mr. Wides. And at what point did you set up any cover apart from the station as a proprietary or notional company; in between the AMUTS people and the Miami station? In other words, were the companies prior to the Latin America social and economic research company that preceeded it, in time?Mr. Sarno. In the time that I handled them, which is up to the LASER I think there were three, three covers all told, or perhaps four. I think we had our debriefing, you know, under one cover.
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 10]
TOP SECRET171 Mr. Wides. That was from the start? You had a separate2 cover for the debriefing?3 Mr. Sarno. Well, from the start we didn't have a place4 for them, and it wasn't pulled together as a debriefing unit.5 When a large flow of refugees started to come in is when we set6 up the special unit.7 Mr. Wides. When was that?8 Mr. Sarno. Well, they cut off --9 Mr. Wides. '64, '63?10 Mr. Sarno. It could have been '62, late '62 or '63. Andbefore, we used to send our debriefers, they were within the12 AMOTS group, specialists in debriefing, area specialists is13 the kind we used. And we would go out to the reception center14 and check around and see who had come out of the particular15 area.16 Mr. Wides. At Opa-Locka?17 Mr. Sarno. At Opa-Locka.18 And our debriefers would go out and check around with the19 people who came in and try to spot somebody who would be20 interesting to interview, debrief, concerning the particular21 area. And so they usually picked them up in a car and either22 took them to a restaurant or took them to a motel or something23 and would debrief them. And then we found that it would be24 better to get a building for them to be in where we located25 them altogether, where they could prepare their reports andTOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 11]
TOP SECRET1 everything.2 Mr. Wides. And so that's when you first set up the3 proprietary for the smaller debriefing component of AMUTS?4 Mr. Sarno. Well, I set up the proprietaries, the notionary5 company for a small debriefing office, and at the same time,6 we rented a building, a larger building, and they used to7 operate in Coral Gables, received some publicity and we moved8 them out of Coral Gables to near the airport in a building where9 the main office was, where this main office was, where these10 reports from the debriefers or any other information was11 collected would be processed, typed in finished form, translated12 and provided to us.13 Mr. Wides. About how many people did you have in AMUTS14 Cubans at that time?15 Mr. Sarno. Well, that's difficult to say.16 Mr. Wides. 150? Would you say 150?17 Mr. Sarno. I would say inside, outside, it could be18 close to 150.19 Mr. Wides. Did you have more than a dozen or so working20 in the component on debriefing?21 Mr. Sarno. As I recall, at one time -- as I recall it,22 we had about 22, 23 people working in debriefing.23 Mr. Wides. And apart from those Cubans, you had a staff24 under you of assistants and secretaries who were Agency25 assigned personnel?TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 12]
# TOP SECRET191 Mr. Sarno. Yes.2 Mr. Wides. What kind of staff did you have?3 Mr. Sarno. Well, it started off originally since we weren't big, I started off with one secretary, and it eventually4 ended up that there were one or two Intel assistants --5 Mr. Wides. These were Agency personnel?6 Mr. Sarno. Agency personnel.7 --.and two or three case officers.8 Mr. Wides. The case officers handled segments of the9 Mr. Sarno. Segments of the AMOTS:10 Mr. Wides. Now, the other, speaking very roughly, hundred11 and fifty or so AMUTS, Cubans, you said some twenty were involved when the debriefing program intensified. What were12 the other hundred-odd Cubans involved in?13 Mr. Sarno. Well, we had records personnel, we had I would say six or seven who only worked in records and main-14 taining of files, and general index cards, and that was it.15 Then we had what we called our reports section which may have had about fifteen people, twenty people, who wrote reports,16 checked them out, cross-referenced, and everything else that was involved in that.17 Mr. Wides. What kind of reports did they write? What were they writing reports about?18 Mr. Sarno. Economic -- whatever they were learning from
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 13]
# TOP SECRET1 against Cuba, and had weapons they weren't supposed to have.2 Mr. Wides. Like Alpha-66?3 Mr. Sarno. Alpha-66, there were many of them.4 And we usually had one of our outside types, either5 recruit or get next to an individual of the group and he would6 penetrate the group himself to report to us what they were7 doing.8 Mr. Wides. Do you recall the flights of the Diaz, or one9 of the Diz brothers, over Havana dropping leaflets?10 Mr. Sarno. What date was it?11 Mr. Wides. I believe it was quite early, and it was not12 in connection with the AMOTS13 Mr. Sarno. I know the Diaz brothers.14 Mr. Wides. Do you recall hearing of flights with -- one15 of them with Frank Sturgis over Havana dropping leaflets?16 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.17 Mr. Wides. It was fairly widely known.18 Mr. Sarno. Well, I didn't get into Cubans until maybe19 it was June of '60, but the only leaflets I ever saw fly over20 Cuba was_the day before the invasion. Those were the only21 ones I saw.22 Mr. Wides. When you were in Miami, did you have any23 contact with Frank Sturgis, Frank Fiorini?24 Mr. Sarno. Never, never. To my knowledge, he never worked25 for us.# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 14]
# TOP SECRETPhone (Area 202) 544-60001 Mr. Wides. Not getting back to the bulk of the AMOTS2 group, apart from the reporting on refugees and the efforts3 to keep tabs, which I guess is a summary of what you are4 saying on what exile groups might be doing that the government5 might otherwise not know about, is it correct that there was6 surveillance of the Miami community generally with regard to7 possible Castro agents?8 Mr. Sarno. Not that I know of.9 Mr. Wides. There was no counterintelligence program in10 the AMOTS?11 Mr. Sarno. We had a counterintelligence component in the12 AMOTS Program.13 Mr. Wides. Why don't you describe that?14 Mr. Sarno. The counterintelligence program consisted of15 very capable Cubans who knew of the former -- the set-up of16 the intelligence agency inside of Cuba, so if anybody were to17 come out, any refugee were to come out and name an individual18 that was a friend of theirs that we knew or suspected of19 working for the internal security which was the DSE or their20 external service, the DGI, our counterintelligence group or21 one of the individuals would go out and debrief the fellow22 and collect names, and prepare reports on it, and they maintained23 files, and that is what it is.24 They never got under a surveillance of any of them, because25 once a report was written they suspected somebody. They maintaineNW 50955 DocId: 32202440 Page 15TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 15]
# TOP SECRETPhone (Area 202) 544-6000WARD & PAULa file of them, and when Cuban refugees would come in, theywould receive lists of names to check in their files, and ifthey suspected one, then they would gather all of theinformation possible on this individual, prepare a report,name their sources, and they would pass it to the station.The station in turn would prepare a memorandum and send it tothe bureau.Mr. Wides. Is it your sworn testimony that you never knewof any surveillances or efforts to penetrate groups forcounterintelligence purposes by Cubans under your supervision?Mr. Sarno. No, sir, no. You're speaking of penetratinggroups, yes. They penetrated groups. Surveillance -- I neversent them out on a mission to surveil anybody concerning whetherthey were suspect or whatever.Mr. Wides. Was there any surveillance of Cubans in Miamiconducted by -- whether it was in cooperation with the Bureauor not -- conducted by any of the AMOTs Cubans that you wereaware of?Mr. Sarno. I cannot recall if there ever was.Mr. Wides. I don't mean a specific one.Mr. Sarno. I don't recall ever giving them any assignments.Mr. Wides. I'm not talking about assignments, I'mtalking about whether you're aware of their conducting --Mr. Sarno. As I say, I do not recall them conductingany surveillance on anybody.NW 50955 DocId: 32202440 Page 16# TOD SECRET23
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 16]
TOP SECRET1 Mr. Wides. Any telephone taps?2 Mr. Sarno. Never any telephone taps, we didn't have3 telephone tap capability.4 Mr. Wides. Any photography?5 Mr. Sarno. We had a photographer.6 Mr. Wides. When was he used? In what circumstances?7 Mr. Sarno. Well, the biggest majority of his work was8 to copy certain documents.9 Mr. Wides. I mean photographic surveillance.10 Mr. Sarno. There may have been. I really can't state11 which one he was used on if he was ever used for photographic12 surveillance.13 Mr. Wides. Which what he was used on?14 Mr. Sarno. I mean if he was used on photographic15 surveillance. I don't recall ever ordering him out on photo-16 graphic surveillance.17 Mr. Wides. Do you recall if there ever was any photo-18 graphic surveillance carried out by any of the AMOTS?19 Mr. Sarno. I have no recollection. I do not recall.20. Mr. Wides. Were you getting reports of any sort, whether21 you would characterize it as surveillance or not, on people22 who had already come and were in Miami as distinct from the23 interview reports when the refugees first came?24 Isn't it correct that the AMOTS personnel were providing25 you with reports on Cubans who were already in Miami?
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 17]
# TOP SECRET251 Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.2 Mr. Wides. Would you describe that program?3 Mr. Sarno. Certainly. As I said, they penetrated these4 groups, they would go around and then they would sit and talk5 and as you would call it, the surveillance, the fact that they6 penetrated, they would sit at the table and report on the7 individual and what the individual said and what they were8 planning. We call it penetration.9 To me, surveillance is to put two men on the street10 following somebody from one place to another.11 Mr. Wides. Were there ever occasions when the station12 was suspicious as to whether Cubans in Miami might be Castro13 agents that you were aware of?14 Mr. Sarno. Many.15 Mr. Wides. Did they ever ask for any assistance in the16 AMUTS group in trying to keep tabs on those individuals or17 to test their suspicions?18 Mr. Sarno. No, sir.19 Mr. Wides. Who would do that?20 Mr. Sarno. It would be the CI section of the station.21 Mr. Wides. You don't recall any situation in which -22 Mr Sarno. In which AMUTS participated? No, sir.23 Mr. Wides. -- working with the FBI.24 Mr. Sarno. The FBI occasionally would ask for the25 services of one of the AMUTS, but it was mainly not to surveil
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 18]
# TOP SECRET261 anybody. It was to provide information to them because their2 name would come up somewhere in a case.3 Mr. Wides. What kind of assistance? You mean more than4 just a chance to interview them?5 Mr. Sarno. No, just interview. They never used them to6 run a man on the street or anything like that, no, sir.7 They tried to get one individual one time and they didn't know8 that he worked for us and they tried to hire him and he came9 back and reported it. We had to advise them that he was10 already working for us.11 Mr. Wides. And you had 115 men and all---12 Mr. Sarno. There were women also, sir.13 Mr. Wides. And women, and all they were doing was14 interviewing refugees and writing reports on exile potential15 activities against Cuba?16 Mr. Sarno. I would say that was the biggest majority of17 their job.18 Mr. Wides. What was the rest of it?19 Mr. Sarno. They also went out, if our station was going20 to run an operation and they needed X amount of bodies, certain21 specialized personnel, the AMUETS would go and locate the22 personnel, talk to them, spot them, get their personal history23 from them, send it in, and the people would be traced out and24 checked and cleared and eventually introduced to the station25 case officer who would use them in our operations.
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 19]
TOP SECRET27Mr. Wides. Who arranged for the training at the training station at Parrott(?), was that used?Mr. Sarno. For whom?Mr. Wides. When the AMOTS people received training, some various kind of tradecraft, who would arrange that, yourself?Mr. Sarno. December, 1961 when I took it over there were only three cases of AMUTS who were sent away for special training. Three cases, three individuals.One came here to Washington, the other was going to be loaned to a station overseas. He came up and received training.The majority of the training given to the AMOTS was down in Miami, Florida.Mr. Wides. And what kind was that?Mr. Sarno. Basic tradecraft, reports writing --Mr. Wides. Did they ever get training in surveillance?Mr. Sarno. Yes, they received training in surveillance.Mr. Wides. Why did they get that?Mr. Sarno. Well, that is part of their program of training them as a group.Mr. Wides. Even though there was no use of them for surveillance purposes?Mr. Sarno. I do not recall, sir, ever sending them out on a surveillance.Mr. DeMarco. Who conducted the training?Mr. Sarno. Our Training Branch, personnel from ourTOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 20]
# TOP SECRETPhone (Area 202) 544-6000 281 Training Branch.2 Mr. DeMarco. From Washington?3 Mr. Sarno. Yes.4 Mr. Wides. You say the majority of the training was in5 Florida. What period are we talking about, throughout the6 period?7 Mr. Sarno. It could be spread over. Reports writing,8 for instance, when the Agency, or when the station was being9 cut back in personnel, this group used to produce tons of10 reports, and when our station was being cut, the staff was11 being cut, I convinced the Chief of Station into having the12 reports officers, for instance, trained to prepare reports13 which would require very little editing or preparation once14 it arrived in the station, which would take a load off the15 station, and it was agreed to.16 Mr. Wides. You arranged in general for the training or17 the training office?18 Mr. Sarno. I never trained.19 Mr. Wides. But they worked through you administratively?20 Mr. Sarno. Yes.21 Mr. Wides. So you were familiar with all the training22 personnel would have got?23 Mr. Sarno. I would say all of the training that they24 received during the period I was with them, with the exception25 of that one year there, and also I must state that although INW 50955 DocId: 32202440 Page 21# TOP SECRET
[157-10005-10250.pdf — page 21]
# TOP SECRET30Mr. Wides. There were some new people coming in?Mr. Sarno. Yes. Some of the people would move, they got a job that paid them more, but there were very few that came in after the original, say about 1964 I would say it was well established and very few dropped out or were taken aboard there-after.Mr. Wides. They all got what you referred to earlier as basic tradecraft training?Mr. Sarno. No, not all of them.Mr. Wides. How many?Mr. Sarno. There were very few of them in the original group. I never had them trained in basic tradecraft. The original group which I took over which, if I am not mistaken, was about eighteen of them, and I understand that prior to the Bay of Pigs --Mr. Wides. Eighteen in AMUTS or eighteen in training?Mr. Sarno. Eighteen in AMUTS all told.I understood that prior to the Bay of Pigs these AMUTS had been given basic tradecraft training. I never once sent them out to receive basic tradecraft training.Mr. Wides. After you came -- when you came there were eighteen AMUTS and eventually we're talking about 150, roughly, or more?Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir.Mr. Wides. And you never knew of any of the people who# TOP SECRET