Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 24]
TOP SECRET1 think that would have just been too bad. But I think it is2 perfectly clear that we would not have expedited anything at3 the risk of doing it unprofessionally.4 Mr. Baron. At the point that Gottlieb left for the Congo5 after talking with you, would he have been enpowerad to convey6 to the Chief of Station that an assassination of Lumumba could7 be carried off if he could meet the criteria you just laid out,8 concealment of the U.S. hand and use of these materials before9 their potency waned?10 Mr. Tweedy. My answer to that would be he would be in no11 position to do anything more with the Chief of Station if thev12 reached that point in planning, that as of the last time hu13 was at leadquarters that there would probably be an approval14 from Washington.15 Mr. Baron. You would axpect, then, the Chief of Station16 would have been expected to reconfirm with Headquarters the17 fact that he had a go-ahead?18 Mr. Tweedy. It would never have occurred to me otherwis19 Mr. Baron. It would be your testimony that, although you20 do not specifically recall your conversation with Dr. Gottliebyou would have made that clear to (Dr. Gottlich?21 Mr. Tweedy. I would have thought so, yes, but I could notcomment any further.23 Mr. Baron. The reason for that is you do not recall the24 conversation?TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 25]
TOP SECRET231 Mr. Tweedy. Not only that, Dr. Gottlieb was as familiar2 as I was with (a) the sensitivity of this particular projectand what was involved and the way that the Agency did itsbusiness, which was things of this kind were not dealt with on5 sort of an offhand basis.6 Mr. Dawson. What is offhand?7 Mr. Tweedy. The fact that the field and Dr. Gottlieb weregiven something in the nature of a blank check as to how theywould go about it and when, without further reference toHeadquarters.Mr. Dawson. If we are to tie this to the cables, then,is there something in the cables predating Gottlieb's visit tothe Congo which would lead you to believe that it had previouslybeen authorized by some words in those cables?Mr. Tweedy. What, Mr. Dawson, had previously been authorized?Mr. Dawson. The authorization of the assassination effort,the elimination of Lumumba.Mr. Tweedy. Only in the most general terms. No operatio:.had been put forward by the field. In our business, thesethings were done by operational planning, at which point onecame up with an operation that was agreed upon by the Stationand by Headquarters, and this, then, would have been eitherimplemented or not, according to the sav-so from Headquarters.:ir. Dawson. That kind of operational planning isTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 26]
TOP SECRET241 after Mr. Gottlieb arrives in the Congo, is that correct?2 Mr. Tweedy. This, in affect, is that (Indicating). You can tell by the Chief of Station, there is no further4 reference to Mr. Gottlieb, as I recall.5 Mr. Baron. In this cable traffic?6 Mr. Tweedy. In this cable traffic, was looking at all7 sorts of ways and means of eliminating Lumumba, not restricted to assassination, which coincides exactly with my recollection9 of the period between when the subject was first broached to the Station and that rather indefinable period when, in effect, it11 was all over, which, I suppose, basically is the disappearance of Lumumba.12 I think all of this traffic supports my contention that13 under the instructions he was given, the Chief of Station in Leopoldville set about exploring all alleys and found none15 crystal clear. There were problems with all of them. Some looked more promising than others. Individuals who might be17 used obviously looked more promising than others. Some were discussed and discarded. We commented on some. And so it19 wait.Mr. Baron. I think that we should proceed in a moment to go through these cables with a close eye, one by one.One further point in Dr. Gottlieb's testimony, to be fair to him, he said he was under the impression that it was general Agency procedure that in a mission like this one the Chief ofTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 27]
# TOP SECRET251 Station probably would check back with Headquarters, that any2 prudent Chief of Station would check back to reconfirm hisauthorityto go ahead with an assassination operation, but Dr.4 Gottliebisaid in his conversation with you he was not told5 that he should convey to the Chief of Station the requirement6 that he should check back with Headquarters before he proceeded7 with the assassination of Lumumba.8 Mr. Tweedy. I cannot comment on his statements, because9 I cannot recall what I said to him. It certainly is perfectly10 conceivable to me that I could have had this conversation withhim and not mentioned this, that this would be covered in all12 the basic correspondence that I was having with the Chief ofStation.14 Mr. Haroi. So then it is possible -- or is it probable15 that in your instructions to *Sidney Gottlieb* about his mission16 to the Congo you might not have explicitly mentioned the17 requirement that the Chief of Station return to Headquarters18 to reconfirm his authority to move ahead with the assassination.19 Mr. Tweedy. It is, I suppose, possible. I am not goingto say it is not possible. I am merely saying that that is21 not the way we did business, and on the whole, Sidney Cottligh22 would be as familiar with that as I would -- perhaps not asfamiliar with it, because he was on the technical side where I24 was on. the operational side and used to this chain of commandthing and the relationship between the Division and Station# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 28]
TOP SECRET261 Chiefs in the field, to a greater extent than Dr. Gottlieb would.2 The last thing I am doing is impugning his veracity and his testimony.4 Mr. Baron. When you say it is not the way we do business,5 you meant to say it was your understanding in general Agency practice that the Chief of Station in a situation like this7 would be expected to check back with Headquarters?8 Mr. Tweedy. When a Chief of Station was given the authority9 to carry out something entirely on his own initiative, that1 was made quite clear -- I'm not talking about this case, I mean:: ganurally -- this was made quits clear.:: Mr. Baroi.. When you were talking about the fact that "this was not the way that we generally did business," you wer-: not referring to the fact that you would have made it absolute!..:: explicit in any conversation with Sidney Cottlieb or anybody:: like him who was undertaking a sensitive mission that the Chis:: of Station would be expected to check back?:: Mr. Tweedy. If I had not mentioned this to Sidney Gottlis and he said I did not, I am perfectly prepared to believe him,: it would be because it never occurred to me that the Chief of Station would act in any other way. That is it.:: Mr.. Dawson. Of course, Mr. Hedgeman also testified that it never would have occured to him to have carried this out without having checked back, and he did so, of course: the cables will show that very clearly. What we are trying to forTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 29]
TOP SECRET271 on is exactly what Mr. *Gottlieb* conveyed to Mr. Hedgeman,2 which, of course, you could not testify to.3 Mr. Tweedy. I could not.4 Mr. Baron. Or what you said to him.5 Mr. Tweedy. I think it is quite possible that I did not6 say to Mr. *Gottlieb, Sid,* for Heaven's sake, do not have the7 Chief of Station go off assassinating this fellow without8 referring back to Headquarters. It would never have occurred9 to me to do that. It would have been, in my view, superfluous.10 Mr. Dawson. You are, of course, aware that Mr. Hedgeman11 was aware of this practice in the Agency?12 Mr. Tweedy. Certainly.13 Mr. Dawson. You had seen that happen. He had only been14 Station Chief for a short time; in spite of that, he was still15 aware of Agency practice?16 Mr. Tweedy. I think that it would be perfectly true to17 say that any clandestine services officer who had reached a18 certain seniority in field experience whether he was Chief of19 Station or not, he would have sucked this in with his mother's20 milk. We were, if I may say so, a very disciplined organizationin that regard.21 Mr. Dawson. Specifically as to Mr. Hedgeman, that wouldapply to him also?22 Mr. Tweedy. It would indeed.23 Mr. Baron. Let us proceed then to a document we will markTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 30]
TOP SECRET1 Exhibit 3, which is a cable from Bronson Tweedy to the Chief2 of Station for his eyes only on September 22, 1960.(The document referredto was marked TweedyExhibit No. 3 foridentification.)TOP SECRET![document page]
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 31]
# TOP SECRET29Mr. Tweedy. This is mostly discussion of [Schotroffa] 04Mr. Baron. The man you referred to was at this time an agent that was in contact with the Chief of Station?Mr. Tweedy. I remember him very well. I could not possibly remember his name. I remember him very well; I met him later.Mr. Baron. He proved to be a highly effective agent for the Station?Mr. Tweedy. He was a very good intelligence agent, an excellent intelligence agent, for the simple reason that he was able to make contact with groups and media in the Congo which was very difficult for non-Africans to reach. He was, for a year or two, a first-class intelligence source basically: not an action source, but an intelligence source.Mr. Baron. When you read the sentence that is at the beginning of paragraph B on the first page where it says:"Concur this possibility worth watching, but if decided support 05 for VOPROP objectives. Believe essential such be provided through third national channel with PBPRIME role completely concealed."What are you referring to there?Mr. Tweedy. I am not sure: I do not remember. I do not recall what the incoming cable said.What I am obviously saying is [Schotroffa] 04 had, I guess, an [American] wife who was, at least had been, [State department] 08 employee. I think what I was saying is, if we wanted to use# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 32]
TOP SECRET1 Schotrotte directly in an assassination attempt, that I would2 not dismiss it out of hand.3 Mr. Baron. You would be concerned about its security?4 Mr. Tweedy. Absolutely.5 Mr. Baron. You then would say the phrase "YOPROP objec-6 tives" would refer to an assassination attempt?7 Mr. Tweedy. Yas.8 Mr. Baron. That the assassination, discussion of an9 assassination attempt, was being restricted to the YOPROP10 channel?11 Mr. Tweedy. Yes.12 Mr. Baron. On the last page of this document --13 Mr. Tweedy. The only thing that worries me about this14 conclusion of mine is this, the more I read it, 2-B is another15 paragraph, which may not have had anything to do with Schotrong16 at all and I do not faal, at least I cannot recollect, why17 any leaks would almost certainly have included the French18 if Schoutrofee were involved in this. Thus, I am inclined to19 feel I am talking about somebody else and not Schotroffe20 Mr. Baron. I will represent to you in other cable traffic,21 I believe, which we will review as we proceed here, there was22 discussion of the use of ano...........23 Mr. Tweedy. This was probably the case. I do not think this refers to Schotrotte. B here I do not think refers to Schotrotife. I cannot recall --TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 33]
# TOP SECRET311 Mr. Baron. Who?2 YQPROP objectives would still refer to exploring possibilities to an assassination attempt?4 Mr. Twoudy. Yas.5 Mr. Baron. This may refer to exploring it with a6 different agent?7 Mr. Tweedy. Yes.8 Mr. Baron. On the last page, paragraph 3, it tells the9 Chief of Station: "Not intended you construe above comments as basically negative. You and colleague understand we cannot read over your shoulder as you plan and assess opportunities.11 Our primary concern must be concealment PRPRIME role unless outstanding opportunity emerges which makes calculated risk first class bet. Ready entertain any serious proposals you make based our high regard both your professional judaments."16 What are you referring to in that paragraph? What message are you conveying to the Chief of Station?18 Mr. Tweedy. Well, I think if you read the cable you will notice that we have found difficulty with a number of his proposals. These were exploratory proposals. I wanted --21 Mr. Baron. For carrying off an assassination mission?22 Mr. Tweedy. You keep coming off with an assassination mission as if this was always just around the corner. What I am saying is, we are in a period hera quite commor. in our business of very intensive operational planning and exploration..# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 34]
TOP SECRET32All sorts of things were coming up from the field. I had commented on it here; in the end, I say, do not be discouraged because you do not see the probable channel we will use. I assume the colleague was *Sid Gottlieb*, because I guess he was still there.Mr. Baron. The first time he had not arrived, but you had already cabled that his arrival was imminent?Mr. Tweedy. I assume that that is the colleague. I do not think he would have talked to anybody else on it. That is all it means.It is, if you like, a technique of management.Mr. Baron. Moving on to a document that we will mark Exhibit 4, the next cable, is from Allen W. Dulles of September 24, 1960 and your pseudonym is also listed as one of the senders of the cable to the Chief of Station.(The document referred to was marked Tweedy Exhibit No. 4 for identification.)TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 35]
# TOP SECRET1 Mr. Baron. In this cable, in the first paragraph, it says:2 "We wish give every possible support in eliminating Lumumbafrom any possibility resuming governmental position or if he fallsin Leop" -- meaning Leopoldville -- "setting himself in Stanley-5 ville or elsewhere:6 First, for the record, any time your pseudonym "Jadwin" or7 your name "Twaady" appears in the upper lefthand corner of a8 cable or your signature appears on the bottom, you dispatched9 that cable? Is that not right?10 I am referring generally to the cable traffic.11 Mr. Tweedy. What it means is this. It could maan severel12 things, but I personally dictated the cable and dispatched it13 without further reference, or for some reason I constructed the14 cable and had it released by a higher authority, either Mr.15 Bissall or Mr. Dulles. Although those were not the only alter-16 natives, if my name was on it, I was connected with it in onsform or another.17 I would quess that I dictated the cable and that fir. Dulles18 and I do not have any idea how this came about -- Mr. Dulles19 wanted to see it, and Mr. Bissell suggested that it go out20 from Mr. Dulles and myself, I just do not know. What this21 means is, Dullas and Tweedy were totally aware of the cable.22 Mr. Baron. "eturning then to the sentence I cited from23 the cable where you and Dulles were talking about giving ever24 possible support in eliminati. Lumumba, what message# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 36]
# TOP SECRET34Mr. Tweedy. "Eliminating Lumumba from any possibility resuming governmental position." This, if I may say so, reverts to the original instruction from Mr. Dulles which was that the U.S. position was that Mr. Lumumba must be removed from a position of authority in the Congo and that assassination was not by any means the only way by which this might be accomplished.This, I think, merely reiterates that it is not a -- being a YQPROP cable does not refer specifically to assassination.Mr. Baron. Would this cable, in using the phrase "eliminating Lumumba" in this context contemplate assassination as at least one of the possible means that might be used?Mr. Tweedy. I am afraid if I may say so you are putting words in my mouth. This is exactly what it says. He has two messages now from Mr. Dulles. The first one, I think, was perfectly clear. Since then he has had messages from Mr. Dulles' subordinates like myself. This merely makes it clear again that Headquarters wishes to "give every possible support in eliminating Lumumba from any possibility resuming governmental position." and I cannot say more than that, and I think to say that this stresses assassination would be quite untrue. But the Chief of Station in Leopoldville was already under instruction to be considering this as one of the possibilities.Mr. Baron. Assassination?Mr. Tweedy. This does not change that.Mr. Baron. I think that is fine.# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 37]
TOP SECRET1 The interesting aspect of that sentence for me is the2 rest of the sentence where it makes it clear that not only is3 there a concern about Lumumba being able to resume his position4 in Leopoldville, but anywhere else, and it would saam that5 assassination would at least have to be one of very few means6 that could insure that fact that Lumumba would not resume a7 position of power anywhere.8 Mr. Tweedy. I do not think I can comment any further.9 Mr. Baron.. Lat us introduce as Exhibit 5 a cable10 dispatched from the Chief of Station on September 27th, 196011 for your uyes Only, and this cable begins with a reference toDr. Gottlieb13 It says he was contacted 26 September. "We on same wa14 length." Then it continues, "Hance balieva most rapid action.15 consistent with security indicated."16 The next paragraph says, "Rasis 2 talks considering17 possibilities:" -- there follows a list of possibilities from18 A to G and paragraph 3 on the bottom of page? says, "Plan19 proceed on basis priorities as listed above, unless instructed20 to contrary."(The document refarredto was marked TweedyExhibit No. 5 foridentification.)TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 38]
# TOP SECRET361 Mr. Baron. Does that indicate to you that on the list of2 priorities, priority A would have been considered by the Chiefof Station to be his top priority?4 Mr. Tweedy. Can you read, by the way, paragraph 2: "Basis5 2 talks considering possibilities" of dispatching Schotroto6 to Stanleyville and taking refuge -- that would be refuge, would7 it not?8 Mr. Baron. Yes. "Recall Schotroffe from Stanleyville" --9 Mr. Tweedy. -- "and have him take refuge with Big10 Brother" --11 Mr. Baron. -- "Would thus act as inside man to brush up12 details to razor edge. Also would provide info on food and13 agricultural problem. Guthman recalling Schotrotto to Leop."14 When Dr.. Gottlieb looked at this cable, he testified that15 this cable indicated that he arrived in the Congo on the 26th16 of September. He had two talks with the Chief of Station where17 they discussed various operational possibilities of getting ridof Lumumba. The letter A represented their top priority plan.Would you agree with thet interpretation of the cable?Mr. Tweedy. I would think so.Mr. Baron. Would you --Mr. Tweedy. When he says: "Plan proceed on basis prior-ities as listed above" this again is not what he was going todo at the conclusion of this without further reference carryout ar. assassination. He says, what we see is Schotroffe th..# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 39]
TOP SECRET1 best answer to our problem.2 Mr. Baron. Does he not indicate in this cable though that he would proceed to implement these plans unless he ware instructed to the contrary? In other words, this very cable might constitute his request for a confirmation.6 Mr. Tweedy. I disagree. I think these various possibili-7 ties still need further exploration is what he was suggesting to Headquarters he concentrate on that is the best possible use8 of *Schotroffe* on this including further operational intelligence10 on the situation which might lead to an agreement that we would11 use this man, and then all these others, but it does not in any sense, as far as I am concerned, it is not in any sense the13 Chief of Station. saying, if A looks terribly good I shall just go ahead and finish the job without further reference. Not at all.16 Mr. Baron. I do not understand how you can read the phrase "unless instructed to the contrary" in that way.Mr. Tweedy. Because there are other possibilities here.I am sorry, but I am afraid looking at it fifteen years later in the subject that you are engaged in, I think you would look at it entirely differently than I would, working on a day-to-day matter with the Chief of Station. There is absolutely nothing in this cable which says that they have the answer to *Schotroffe's* use.Mr. Baron. Does paragraph A indicate that *Schotroffe* wouldTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 40]
TOP SECRET1 take refuge with Big Brother, meaning move into *Lumumba's*2 *entourage?*3 Mr. Tweedy. I think probably this would be -- I am trying4 to think how this was.5 Was this possibly *Jasingar?*6 Mr. Baron. I do not know the operational details.7 Mr. Tweedy. He did have some access to *Lumumba's entour-8 age*, which was the reason we were so interested.9 Mr. Baron. Would you assume that this cable is suggesting10 that *Schotrotte* be recalled to Leopoldville so that he might11 move into *Lumumba's entourage?*12 Mr. Tweedy. Absolutely.13 Mr. Baron. Where it says he "would thus act as *inside man*,14 to brush up details to razor edge," would you assume that refers15 to exploring the means by which Lumumba might be poisoned?16 Mr. Tweedy. I think that is quite a possibility. I cannot17 specifically say yes. I suspect he was our best potential source18 for operational intelligence, if you like, on this.19 Then he says "Also would provide info on food and agricul-20 tural problems." I have a vague recollection at this point that21 he was reporting rather importantly on aspects of food and22 agriculture which was a major political factor within the Congo23 then. I cannot put it any more clearly than that.24 I think it is that this would be a byproduct of this, that25 we would get more good reporting on the subject.TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 41]
TOP SECRET1 Mr. Baron. You would read that sentence literally instead 392 of an oblique reference to getting access to Lumumba's food by3 which he might be poisoned?4 Mr. Tweedy. I would read it much more literally than that.5 Mr. Baron. Let us turn then to Exhibit 6, which is a6 cable from the Chief of Station on September 30th to Jadwin,7 which is yourself -- (The document referred8 to was marked Tweedy9 Exhibit No. 6 for10 identification.)TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 42]
TOP SECRETMr. Baron. -- in which the Chief of Station says: *No really airtight op possible with assets now available. Must choose between cancelling op or accepting calculated risks of varying degrees."Schotroffe best asset available. View necessity act immediately, if at all, urge Headquarters authorize exploratory conversations to determine if chotroffe willing take role as active agent or cut-out this op."First, would you read the sentence or the phrase "view necessity act immediately, if at all" to refer to the fact that at this point Cottlieb had informed the Chief of Station that the lethal material was of a limited life?Mr. Tweedy. I cannot really comment on that. That is certainly a perfectly reasonable explanation for that remark, but as I do not know exactly where Lumumba sat on that particular moment when this cable was sent, it might have something to do with his availability or something else, I just do not know.Certeinly your first point is a possibility. It aquall makes cleer, of course, that although schotroffe hal bed se in an operational intelligence support role, he at this point had never been cut in on plans. Of course, Chief of Station did not know whether he would be willing +0 70 1ong with th:: Sto not.Mr. Baron. The Chief of Station here is considering an.TOP SECRET![logo of SIBR]
[157-10014-10089.pdf — page 43]
# TOP SECRET1 approach to Schotrofff first on a hypothetical basis --2 Mr. Tweedy. Yas.3 Mr. Baron. It is clear here, is it not, that Schotroffe is being viewed as a potential assassination asset?5 Mr. Tweedy. Indeed.6 Mr. Baron. Let us introduce as Exhibit 7 a cable on 30 September 1960 signed by Glen Fields to the Chief of Station,8 again in the YOPROP channel.(The document referred to was marked Tweedy Exhibit No. 7 for identification.)# TOP SECRET![logo]