Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 78]
TOP SECRETthe Italians in 1923, Constatinople, and cases on diplomatic issues, the complete thing was fabricated, and so on. And 1. there is no way of testing them, the security is such that they can't be tested.So we are not under any illusions of expecting them to state that he went through the 13 Department, which asked him the following questions.Mr. Schwarz. So you say that as far as that matter goes there is no possibility that anybody on the Warren Commission was fooled?Mr. Angleton. I mean, I don't think anybody was. I didn't follow the Warren Commission, Rocha followed it, and he was running over there all the time, and so on.Mr. Kirbow. Let me ask you. There would have been no reason why anyone on the Warren Commission would have known that as a matter of everyday business that they did in fact run every defector through Department 13?Mr. Angleton. I don't think we ever told them. But you see, Allen Dulles -- that is what I am coming to -- I used to see Allen Dulles regularly, and I was an advisor officially to him on a lot of headaches, and I dida lot of leg work for him. And I regarded him as a very personal friend. And I am Executor of his papers, among other things.But the point I am coming to is, to try to give him guidance of what the jungle is around here in terms of theTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 79]
TOP SECRET19                                                                                                               781   FBI's position and Mr. Hoover's, and so on, so that he would2   be more sensitive to the things, no longer being Director,3   that were no longer germain to his position on the matter.4   Mr. Schwarz. Was there a connection between the FBI and5   Oswald?6   Mr. Angleton. I don't know the full FBI story. I know7.  there was a tremendous flap in the Bureau. And one of the best8   men they had in my view is a professional a man called Burt9   Turner, who I understand just got his law degree. And Burt10  Turner was one of the finest men on Soviet KGB activities in11  the US, one of the analyzts. And he was in the Washington12  Field Office. And it is my understanding -- and this is13  basically hearsay, but from pretty good sources -- that Burt14  Turner was handling the Oswald or/ related matters at the time15  the President made the trip down to Texas, and that there was16  some confusion that the Bureau had not turned over, or had17  not taken enough initiative in turning over, all the informa-18  tion on Oswald to the local police. I had been told that19  there was a black mark put against Turner's name, and that he20  confronted Mr. Hoover and stated he was not going to permit,21  or have it be known to his children, that his negligence was22  responsible for the death of the President. And he was pretty23  forceful about his position. And as a result, this was24  expunged or something to that effect. And that is the reason25  he went to the Washington Field Office instead of staying inTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 80]
TOP SECRETHeadquarters.And then he retired. And I think his retirement had something to do with this fact.But this is all by virtue of hindsight with the thousands of cases. And I cannot see any Western intelligence service seizing on facts that Oswald will return to the US, and then going and saying, we will get all of this, and we will send it to Texas.What I am trying to say, is that the difference in their system. With the manpower and the computers, which are mainly ours, and whatnot, a situation of that sort is automatic. And we know enought about the Second Chief Directorate and the controls, the total controls, to know that if a Soviet returned automatically, to any part of the Soviet Union he went, there would be a dossier that would go, and there would be also an operational directive to put him on tap, check his mail, to do the following, and so on and to put an agent near him. There wouldn't be any leaking anything in the air on that.There would be total encapsulation of that individual until it was ceratin beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was not sent back as an agent.Mr. Schwarz. A moment ago in talking about the line-up, as I think you put it, of views on Nosenko, you recounted the views of a number of people. And you said that one person had changed his mind or recanted subsequently. And you made a reference in that connection to an Inspector General'sTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 81]
TOP SECRETreport. What was that report?Mr. Angleton. At one stage in all of this and it was much later, after all the dust settled Helms got the Inspector General, who had come from the clandestine side of our business, to institute I don't like to use the word inspection, it is too authoritative to go into the Nosenko matter and see if there is anything there that he should know, because Helms is fully aware of the split on this whole question of bona fides, and it bothered him, because I had brought him in touch with Golitzen, and he was fully aware of all my activities, and travels and so on.And so this person who was chosen began to interview everybody and reopen the whole thing. I mean, there were 21 safe leads of stuff if you really got into all of the Golitzen and Nosenko and the other things that pertained, as I pointed out. to the Warren Commission, to the asininity of what has happened, of 27 years of experience of myself and my two colleagues, that these are the facts, that there are 20 casesMr. Schwarz. You said Warren Commission. You mean Rockefeller?Mr. Angleton. Excuse me, Rockefeller.There are 20 some odd cases that a counterintelligence officer in our busienss should know before he even begins to get his feet wet.TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 82]
TOP SECRETNow, when Dr. Schlesinger came in, and I started hearing all of these things of manaement by objectives, and synergistic and a lot of other things, being applied to the art forms which we had developed, I finally got so frustrated that I thought I would take him up on his own thing. So I got statisticians into take all the safes and figure out the linear footage of every safe drawer, all the way on through, and to computerize how long it would take the normal case officer to come up to this elemental stage of being able to be launched. That was sort of a preparatory business. And they figured it out and they said it would take 22 man years, we meant that if we were 100 percent incorrect, it would be 11 man years. And that was simply to apprise Schlesinger, and Colby, who had never been in counterintelligence, of what all this problem was about. They had the idea of transferring people back and forth and all the rest of it. And I nver chose anybody in that job as a rule who had either been in the FBI or had not had very rich experience in counterintelligence. And normally I kept outside leaks to anybody in the business I had men who stayed with me for 11 years, Rocca was with me for 31 years, even though they went into operational situa- tions abroad and returned, and so on. And I say this to you, because here was an IG, and Inspector General, who had had a very lofty mission in Germany, where we used to have two or 300 new peopleTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 83]
TOP SECRETMr. Schwarz. Was this Mr. Ermine?Mr. Angleton. No, he was never brought. He was Gordon Stewart -- and he is retired -- a very able man, and a fine executive. And I mean this sincerely. He is one of the really top-notch men.But he as to undertake this burden. And it was a farce in terms -- so he would talk to people and get their views and so on.When I went to the former Chief of the Soviet Division, who was then stationed in Paris -- and this is only hearsay,I never read the report -- the former Chief of the Soviet Division stated, when I look back it, perhaps I have given too much latitude to my subordinates. And he wouldn't say yea or nay, but he withdrew his very firm statement of the past that this man was an agent provocateur.Mr. Schwarz. Did the review concern in any way the handling of the matter with the Warren Commission?Mr. Angleton. No, not to my knowledge. I mean, this may be something. I don't think I have evern seen the review -- in fact, I don't know whether the review was ever put in the paper. But I mention it simply so that you don't get the idea that it was just the CIA staff that had this view. This was a view that was shared by numbers of people who had dealings with Nosenko. And I think the greatest authority of all is Golitzen himself, who was in the KGB, and who knewTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 84]
24TOP SECRET83everything. And he lived there for 16 or 18 years of his life.Mr. Schwarz. Earlier you mentioned that you put Mr.Harvey in touch with the Israeli's during the Cuban business.And we have had a lot of testimony about Mr. Harvey, so we are moderately well aware of his activities.Mr. Angleton. I am sorry.Mr. Schwarz. We know who Mr. Harvy is and we have had a fair amount of testimony about some of the things he had done.What was the connection between him and the Israeli's during the Cuban business?Mr. Angleton. I will put it very briefly --Senator Tower. What is the Cuban business specifically?Mr. Schwarz. The witness used the expression Cuban business. I guess I should ask first, what do you mean by the Cuban business, and second, what is the connection between Mr. Harvey and the Israelis on this matter?Mr. Kirbow. You are really asking, what is the importance of putting him in touch with them in relation to Cuba?Mr. Angleton. Bill Harvey was put in charge of taking over the Cuban business, the Cuban business being the Clandestine Services activity into Cuba. Now, what struck me, not having had any part of the Bay of Pigs, because of differences with Bissell, was that it seemed to me that both the Cubans and the Soviets knew everything that was beingTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 85]
TOP SECRETplanned. In other words, they had the thing penetrated, and it was foredoomed.Mr. Schwarz. Through the exile community in Miami?Mr. Angleton. No, through Soviet agents and everything, and so on, there was no cover or second investigation or anything.So when Bill took over in the Cuban business, then I decided that since we were very close friends that I would try to help him out by getting him a source totally unknown to everybody. And I went to the Israeli's. And I had them assign a man to Havana, whom I happened to know very well. He was born in Bulgaris.[^2] He can speak Russian and the Balkan countries' languages. He is today their senior man on Soviet intelligence. He was a young officer in the days I am speaking of. And he was sent to Havana, which meant that here he was -- and the communications were from him in a one time pattern, I mean total security, from Havana to Tel Aviv, to me, and from me to Bill. And no one knew of his existence or his identify, except Harvey and myself, and of course, Dick Helms.Mr. Schwarz. McCone?Mr. Angleton. I can't remember whether -- yes, McCone would have know, but he wouldn't have been interested.What I am trying to say is, he knew.Mr. Kirbow. Helms knew because he was DDP --TOP SECRET[^2]: He was born in Bulgaris.
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 86]
TOP SECRETMr. Angleton. He knew, because even before I went into this I told him what I was going to do, and he agreed, and so on.And also I wanted a person, because there was a radio going to be put into Havana, and let somebody say we need a radio in Havana, or drop some men in. And then the point is, I get the radio to Tel Aviv, and to Havana and then put it someplace, and then tell him, you go to such and such a place and find the radio, and then have some men come in and call some men to make contact, with the view that I couldn't trust the whole setup.So for many a long period of time this worked perfectly. This individual established his cover. They only had two or three people in the Embassy there. He would go to a Hungarian restaurant where the Soviet officers would also go. And he would spot one of the waiters or a headwater who was Jewish and it wouldn't be long before he would say, you are from the Israeli Embassy, and pretty soon one thing led to another, and his production was without question the greatest production there was.Well, it got so complex in names and geography, and so on that is when I came to the point that I brought Harvey together secretly with this individual, the only person I put in touch was an Israeli in this context. So later on the Soviets come out with the statement, is Bill Harvey on theTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 87]
28# TOP SECRET87with. It looks big today to you, but when you think of what the Agency's efforts were at that time in the Miami base with all the boats and the biggest Navy in the world, and all the rest, a little thing involving one man was not a thing that you went up and made a fuss to Mr. McCone about.Mr. Schwarz. Did you know Mr. Harvey pretty well, was he someone you knew?Mr. Angleton. Very well indeed. In fact, I just called him the other day, his mother died.Mr. Schwarz. I heard that.Did you know anything about his use of underworld figures in connection with --Mr. Angleton. I know the allegations.Mr. Schwarz. At the time did you know of that?Mr. Angleton. I only know one incident.Mr. Schwarz. Okay.Mr. Angleton. Simply the Bureau, the FBI, ran a surveillance. And Sam Papich, who was the Liaison Officer of the FBI, who is now Head of the Criminal Commission in Mexico, was at my house around 10 o'clock at night. And the Washington Field Office or Headquarters Miami located Papich at my house. They were absolutely boiling, because they had surveiled the Mafia all the way from California to National Airport, and he had got off the plane and was met by a man who was the physical description of Bill to a teel. And they# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 88]
29TOP SECRETthought it was Bill. And they were checking with Papich.what to do.Mr. Schwarz. That was Mr. Roselli, was it?Mr. Angleton. I think it was.Mr. Kirbow. And the Bill you speak of here is Bill Harvey?Mr. Angleton. Bill Harvey.So I could get the gist of Bill's questions to them. And I told him -- I made a motion to put his hand over the phone and not to let them discuss it. And I said, tell them not to do anything until they hear from you.And that is what he told them, he said, stand down on this and I will be back in touch.And then Bill told me the whole story in detail of how he had gone over from California and followed him in this thing, and how Harvey had put him in his car and he went off.Mr. Schwarz. That was in 1973 shortly before Mr. Harvey went to Rome?Mr. Angleton. It wasn't shortly before, it was, I think quite a long time before.So then I told Sam, I said, look, let's go very easy on this -- because I didn't know anything about Bill's connection with the Mafia and all that, but I did know him well enough to know that he was not a frivolous man, and that this thing happened, and keep in mind that ex-FBI men, contrary to public opinion, were not very much liked by Mr. Hoover when they leftTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 89]
TOP SECRET1 the FBI.2 So I called Bill's house, and I asked his wife, is Bill around?3 And she said, no, he is out to dinner tonight.4 And I said, look, we have some very serious trouble.5 Would you please tell me where I can locate him.6 And she said, he is at Duke Zeibert's. And I called7 Duke Zeibert's and I managed to get him. And I turned the8 phone over to Papich, because I did not want to be on the9 record showing that this was Angleton, et cetera.10 And Papich talked to Bill, and actually I didn't hear11 the discussion. It was something about, I will see you12 tomorrow.13 And Sam told the surveillance and all the other people14 to forget it, and the Headquarters would take over.15 And that is my knowledge, direct knowledge of what16 Anderson and everybody else has stated.17 Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Angleton, to your specific knowledge18 did Bill ever attempt to use the excellent contact he had in19 Havana to carry out the mission of eliminating the leader down20 there, or try to get any help out of him in that regard?21 Mr. Angleton. He knows that I would have cut his throat.22 Mr. Kirbow. That would have jeopardized your entire23 contact with the Israeli's?24 Mr. Angleton. Yes sir.25 TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 90]
TOP SECRETSenator Tower. We will take a recess for about two minutes while we go up and vote.(A short recess was taken)Senator Tower. You have read this, and Szulc says in this galley-- this is a galley of the Szulc article in Penthouse:"Although the details of the Israeli nuclear enterprise are still top secret, it is known that in the wake of the 1956 Suez war, the Eisenhower Administration resolved to provide Israel with all possible help in developing an atomic weapon. The Israelis had the theoretical knowledge, but they needed technological support at their Dimona nuclear research center in the Negev Desert.""According to the top intelligence sources, the CIA was charged with the responsibility of providing this support to the Israelis."Do you have knowledge that the CIA was charged with such responsibilities?Mr. Angleton. Absolutely to the contrary.Senator Tower. "--Angleton directed the effort?"Mr. Angleton. False.Senator Tower. That it totally false?Mr. Angleton. That is totally false.TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 91]
TOP SECRET"Several nuclear scientists were secretly sent to Israel to work with Dimona scientists."Mr. Angleton. False. I will interject here that the French sent 400 as a matter of the original deal with the Israelis to Dimona.Senator Tower. The reference here is to nuclear weaponry And this means sent by the CIA, as In interpret it.Mr. Angleton. It is false.Senator Tower. "The most important of them, according to intelligence sources, was a British-born physicist, now an American citizen working for the US Government in Washington, with special and esoteric ties to the CIA."Mr. Angleton. No. The allegation is false.Senator Tower. The answer to your previous question would cover that one, too, I assume."Persons close to Angleton have confirmed this account in recent interviews. Reflecting Angleton's own position, however, they have denied assertions from other sources that the CIA team made fissinoable material -- plutonimum available to the Israelies from United States stocks."Mr. Schwarz. As far as your are concerned is that statement right or wrong?Mr. Angleton. I am saying, when he says deny it I deny it.Senator Tower. I think it was taken care of in thatTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 92]
TOP SECRET33second paragraph, is where all the questions are raised.Really, the CIA would be hard put to transfer anyfissionable materials without the knowledge of the AtomicEnergy Commission, would it not?Mr. Angleton. Sir, I can assure you that the CIA -- Idon't really know what the word fissionable means anymore.There is so much use of the atomic energy. We have atomicbattery --Senator Tower. By fissionable materials, I think thereference here is that could be converted to weapons.Mr. Angleton. I just don't categorically -- in my wholehistory in the CIA, nothing ever involved fissionable materialexcept intelligence about it or speculations regarding leakagesand so forth.Senator Tower. In other words, the CIA doesn't havecontrol over any stocks of fissionable materials independently.Mr. Angleton. No.Senator Tower. And therefore the CIA could not acquiresuch materials except through the knowledge of the AtomicEnergy Commission?Mr. Angleton. That is right -- I hate to nitpick, butI want to simply state that there was a problem in the Agencyonce where you have, say, somebody simply approach you andstate, I have access to fissionable materials, and thereforeif it is a covert thing, and it raises a big policy question.TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 93]
# TOP SECREThow do we deal with those kinds of cases, where someone allegedly, a confidence man, or whatnot, who wants to sell you the stuff? The purpose then was to penetrate, or try to penetrate. And I wonder if there wasn't a question at one stage as to what we do about it, and what the dangers would be if we use the diplomatic pouch, and there are thousands of questions. And it did happen in the Far East. And it was a false case, confidential case. But it did happen. There was an offer to sell us atomic fissionable material or something.But my point is, there has never been initiative to my knowledge, or an interest of the CIA in any shape or form wanting any fissionable material.Senator Tower. DaveMr. Aaron. Two small points. Mr. Szulc said that "In effect Mr. Angleton said at one point that should I surface Mr. Mann's name, Dr. Mann's name, he may go as far as to commit suicide."Did you ever say that to Mr. Szulc?Mr. Angleton. I don't think I said it to him. But in the back of my mind -- after I left you -- was what I think I told you -- and maybe I didn't tell you, maybe I told Colby, that is what bothers me -- the Royal Canadian Mounted Police still have an open espionage case in which a report of theirs alleges that either Dr. Mann being present or something that someone tried to cut his throat in Philby's house in# TOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 94]
TOP SECRETWashington, when Philby was stationed there. Now, whether we had the report or not I don't know. So I am a little confused as to that statement. Because I don't think the question of using Mann's name came up other than the context of the allegation that Mann was sent by me, and would this mean if it came out in terms of the Head of Services, who had called for phrases, British, French, et cetera, and they would have this confirmation, one do they know anything about my Israeli activities now, and then the most damaging would be the entire information on Mann and Philby, et cetera.Mr. Aaron. Let me just read one other segment of his testimony: "Angleton said after recounting the story of the transfer of atomic technology Mr. Szulc went on and said, Angleton said that he was rather taken back by this information, said that in effect he could confirm it with corrections:one, the timeframe was wrong, that it was not the early '60's, but indeed the late '50's after the Suez war, and number two, that as far as he was concerned there was not delivered by the CIA, or anyone to his knowledge any fissionable material such as plutonium or other material."Mr. Angleton. I don't follow that at all.Mr. Aaron. Did you make those two corrections?Mr. Angleton. I don't understand what you are saying.Mr. Aaron. Did you make those two corrections?Mr. Angleton. I don't understand what you are sayingTOP SECRET
[157-10014-10005.pdf — page 95]
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000TOP SECRETSenator Tower. He is reading -- actually what he read a little earlier to you was in terms of trying to bring out that you did not agree with his story, that you did not confirm the validity of it.Mr. Angleton. That part is correct. But I am not follow-ing this last part you are reading.Mr. Aaron. Let me show it to you and you read it.Mr. Schwarz. Would you identify the page and the line?Mr. Aaron. The page is page 40, beginning at line 19 and running to the end of the pageMr. Angleton. That said in effect he could confirm it, that is the "it" business?Mr. Aaron. Start back further and get the general story.Mr. Angleton. This is false, on page 40, from line 8, "Mr. Angleton told me that essentially this information was correct," that is absolutely false.And I never made any such statement that I could confirm it -- lines 19 and 20, "Angleton said he was really taken back and in effect he could confirm the two corrections." That is false.Mr. Aaron. I think that covers it.Mr. Angleton. And this is false: "one or more distinguished pure scientists or physicists whose services were available to the US Government", that is totally false.TOP SECRET