Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 180]
expelled, I'm not certain of the exact dates. She was also known to have slept around with almost every minister of the Tanganyikan government including Julius Nyerere. This is one of the reasons why there was so much hushhush about her, that she had obviously gotten a lot of information out of these fellows. She was very close to Oscar Kambona and she claimed that Oscar Kambona was going to get her back into the Foreign Ministry.She was just Revolution's correspondent there. She did practically nothing. When she got out, she managed to keep her little office going. They didn't seize anything, and she turned over themailing list of her Spearhead magazine to Revolution. Verges had paid her £1000 deposit so she could do some work but she really didn't do anything, but she unlike Rosalind Ainslie, turned over the unspent portion of that to Verges when she came to London.and she wasn't interested really in continuing her work with Revolution. Being Indian of course posed a problem with for her with anything to do with the Chinese. She was very close to the Indian community, as anyone who looks through that mailing list will see we have lots of missionary Indian business, and so forth in East Africa, who were taking subscriptions to the magazine more or less out of friendship and solidarity with another Indian. They didn't caremuch whether she was a Communist or not.She was supposed to have been the mistress of Dr. Dadu. At least they say she slept with Dr. Dadu and they had a very close relationship to him. Dr. Dadu is the president of the Indian Congress for South Africa and a member of the Communist Party of South Africa, a very important member. Because the Indian community has holdings up and down East Africa, Mozambique as well, their role in the liberation struggle is very equivocal .Obviously the Africans want to go ahead while the Indians are think一ing - well-Africanization meant to the Indians The English used then as a sort of buffer, preferred to bring an Indian clerk to East Africa rather than to train an African. That was a typical colonial maneuver but now it has put the Indians in a situation historically which is untenable, for a long period. You know people talk about multi-racial states but in East Africa it is a joke. It won't hold up. I don't think it will, anyway.
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# The Indian Congress of South Africa is related to the African National Congress, the Solored people's congress, all of this in a so-called Congress Alliance. She had contacts with the Africand- the ANR people.The ANC people here in London. They were suspicious of her, as well.But she managed somehow to get back in, she was ill, she was in hospital. She was hurtin an auto accident, and she had to have a very complicated bone operation. That put her out of action for some time.I don't know, but I heard that she is now back in Tanganyika.She may well be. She has quite a bit of money; Her family has money.Of course the Indians do have money. She did very little for the magazine.She occasionally told me about people in the ANC who might do something for the magazine. But most of the people she told me abut were members of the South African Communist Party. That party has taken a pro-Moscow stand and most of its people don't want to do anything for Revolution, though we did have articles by Bryan Bunk another South African Communist.That was before their party took their stand on the Sino-Soviet conflict.And there is a struggle going on right now inside of the ANC.That's a long complicated thing. That has nothing to do with Revolutin.(On my list here we have Diallo))Diallo is an adviser of the President of Mali- vhat's his name:Modeva Keida.Married to a French woman, is Leftist, he knows Verges through friendship and offered to help. He put him in contact withwho is Minister of Information, who is very, very pro-Chinese.((In Mali)Yes. When Chou en Lai visited Mali, you recall that he got quite committed.There were some gratuitous, open handed slaps.There's nothing very much. He just knew him.This is again one-of-Verges-attempts to have a finger in another African countryI didn't mention, with Phongbeah, one of the reasons that he kept phonbeah was phombeah's connection with Odinga, in Kenya.Phombeah at one time had hoped to be made the secretary of this new Lumumba Institute there, in Nairobi. Verges, odd as it may seem, had at one time, proposed himself as a sort of security adviser to Odinga.We felt that he continued to pay Dennis Phombeah for doing nothing mainly to keep a line of communication open to Odinga. He had met Odinga but got nowhere with him. In Algiers he was friend Le Chinois
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 182]
# President of Mali,Moba Keita. Married to a French woman. Leftist. He knows Verges through friendship and offered to help. He put him in contact with a man by the name of Mogotogo (!), who is Minister of Information, who is very very pro-Chinesey in Mali.And when Chou en Lai visited Mali you recall that he got quite a committed welcome in Mali. And there were some gratuitous open-handed slaps the Russians made. Didn't have to be made but were.((How did Verges and Diallo get together))I don't know. He had known him for a considerable time. There is nothing very much. This is again one of Verges's attempts to have a finger in another African country. One of the reasons that he kept Phombeah was Phombeah's connection with Odinga.If in Algiers he was referred to as Le Chinois I don't think the Kenyans would accept him.This is a real problem. He says, "well, we colored people and so forth" and it is true that he is part - he's Eurasian, but it is very hard for Africans to accept that. They just put him down as Chinese.I don't know very much about Demba Diallo. He played very little role in the Magazine except that he was a contact inside of Mali . He came to France early last year, the spring of last year, with his wife. He went to Vichy for his health and drank the waters for two or three weeks and he saw Verges. Verges had ideas, had mentioned to Ken that if he couldn't keep the magazine going he might go to Mali. Ken was going to be sent off to wherever, Viriato da Cruz of the Angolan Federation of Liberation, as adviser, and I was going to be sent to Indonesia for the Afro-Asian Journalists. That was how he was going to take care of everybody.(How about Castro Da Silva)Castro Da Silva is the pseudonym used for Viriato da Cruz, formerly of the MPLA, and now of the UPA. He is a poet, again, late thirties, married, has a child and is based more or less in Algiers. He has virtually no money at all. He has a small group which went into the UPA.Holden Roberto, the head of the UPA is very suspicious of him, but nevertheless he needs him. He needs the Left. He has been to China and this give him a sort of gives the Chinese a guarantee, but on the other hand the Chinese didn't even want to give Viriato money to transfer
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 183]
himself from Algiers to Brazzaville. And he was threatened by the MPLApeople, who are of course Sovie-backed to the hilt, in fact more.Dr. Neto, *apparently* more than ever now. And the Algerians, Ben Bella,who had supported the MPLA up until the great fiasco when people discoveredthat they didn't have what they claimed to have given their support to the UPA. Nevertheless, the MPLA people stillremain and they are promising to reform and really carry out thingsideologically.I think that *logically* the MPLA is much more congenial to the Algeriansand to all of the hard revolutionary line, people.Holden Roberto is considered to be an American agent pure and simpleand always has been. In actual fact, he received a lot of money throughvarious Protestant missionary groups, American Protestant missionary groups.And he himself is a Christian Protestant. These tie-ups have helped theRightists to back him. He did go off to China, made some *talents*.The Chinese haven't made any real decisive choice between the MPLA and theUPA. They're just waiting to see who is going to be able to produce.((What about da Cruz): What is his function)He has no function except to write articles about Angola, which hehas done, one of which he signed with his own name. He has very littlemoney and he hoped that Verges would be able to smooth the way with theChinese, but alas! poor fellow, he learnt to his horror, I understand, that Vergeswas by no means the Chinese agent that he presumed him to be. I understandthat he has virtually retired from politics . He is a poet. And he'd muchrather be a poet than anything else. He told me on several occasions that reallyin Paris when he came to my house there for dinner that he wished he couldget out of the whole thing, what was he going to do, he didn't have apassport, he had all these people sort of pushing him ininto this. He didn't have any money. He didn't know what to do.((He lives in Paris))No, he lives in Algiers. He is still in Algiers to best of my knowledge,He is one of the people in Algiers I would see. If I were to go toAlgiers I would look him up. He's not terribly dynamic butevents threw him up into a leading position and he sort of stuckthere and doesn't know how to get out. The Chinese Haven't given himthe all out support that he had hoped for((Neither have they turned him down))No.
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# (Amilcar Cabrera)That was a name used, not a pseudonym, a false name. It doesn't represent anyone, it represents the FALN, of Venezuela in Europe. They have a bureau in France. I didn't really know them. I knew there were several people. One of them a graphic artist, whose drawings were printed in *Revolution*. They brought the things to him. They are authentic.Because when Verges had a young French boy traveling through Latin America he went to Venezuela. They got him into the guerillas. They got him all around. We had some very authentic *short-hand* reports. So whoever they are they are authentic. They were very, very cautious, probably suspicious of me because I was an American, so I never had any real conversation with them.(Do you know anything about who Verges's link to them was)(Do you know if he still has them)I know this, they asked him to remove the name Amilcar Cabrera and it has been removed, because it was identified with them. So he then put in a note in the twelfth French edition that in the future he would receive an article from the information department of the FALN. They'd be foolish not to send material, but they didn't want to be identified with the editorial policy of the magazine. This many reflect various tendencies inside of the FALN which I have read about. I don't know anything, first-hand that they split between a hard line, those who want to continue the real struggle and the sabotage struggle and those who want to look for possible negotiated solutions, one group that is a little more pro-Chinese.In any case these people did represent the FALN, there is no doubt about it. I didn't know any of them. They never had any dealings with me.(Patricia Magowan)I know very little about her. She did this book on Portugal. She was connected with the British Communist Party but also with Trotskyists. She was the one who found Rosalind Ainslee to work here in London for the magazine. She is the mistress of a man named Carlos((Lanca?))I'm not certain. That might be it. He is a European born in Mozambique, a Portuguese, who has been kept going by various African movements for years because he represents (laughing) what the French call an interlocateur, when they want to call him out
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He represents nothing. He's a sort of hopeless person. She's a very dynamic woman. Verges claimed that she had become a police informer, for the Algerian police, and that she talked to very opposite groups and to occasionally, Skaxższked to Mamani of the Salava grimix party in Algiers. But she no longer has anything to do with Revolution Africaine. I don't know what she is going. She wouldn't have anything to do with Verges after the moment that she refused to go to Lausanne. You see, be nas((Why))Why did she refuse to go? Well, she couldn't leave Carlos by himself. God knows what would happen to him. Secondly, she hadoto wanted to be all-the-time in Algiers. She wasnt inerente interested in running a magazine in Switzerland, the magazineinterest was secondary to her.There was another Portuguese-speaking person in Algiers. That was a man by the name of Aqueno Braganza. Braganza is a Goan a/Goan who has lost hig reason for being with the end of the Portuguese colonial rule in Coa, he should have gone back! But wh he had been a Goan revolutionary had, with the Portuguese opposition.for years he has been in Rabat hooked up to the, at that time it was the CONCP, Conference 2162 Nationaliste des Colonies Portuguese, which grouped together the Eileso what later, came to be the Falimo and the MPLA. It was part of the hard line countriesThere was another one elsewhere which was soft line. Braganza was also sort of adviser to the magazine, Revolution Africaine ad questions of India and so on. He stayed on and worked with Mohammed Harbi and came to London.2((Did he have anything to do with Patticia Macgowan)Yes. They had been together in Rabat.((Did he have anything to do with Carlos))Yes. It's all the same crowd. But Carlos was waiting for destiny to call him and Braganza had already lost his chance. The Indians had got ins They'd liberated Goa, so what next, you know.Go back to India. He obviously wasn't going to go back .He was living too well, as it was. insaluwar 21. grein is 10 And in Goa, nobody knew him in Goa. He was a Goan educated in Portugal. One of these people really without a real national identity. He knew that he wasn't Portuguese and had this feeling of alienation from Portugal, which made hin like most for the colonials students there-- the MPLA really started in Portugal- made hin an oppositionist. He didn't have enoughy roots with the homeland. So he's just sort for floating around. His wife is a school teacher. He speaks excellent French. He was working for Revolution Africaine. I don't know if he still is. I'a certain he'll find something to do. He'll never go back to Goa.
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((This points up the need for a continuing revolution, when the revolution is completed))Yes. You don't have jobs unless you're in the government. And that's a problem, too. In his case, he, wasn't even a real revolutionary, just a bureaucrat in Rabat and other places.((How did Macgowan get involved with Verges))That I don't know. I don't know how he got her in the beginning, in Rabat. He used to go to Morocco quite often and had contact with all the African, the-race people there. I suspect that's were he met her.((How much those guys))Now you've got Harbi. He was the person who replaced Verges. He's out now, but I'm told by Andersson, who has his ear to the ground in Algiers as well as in Switzerland, that Harbi is in a very good position. He is one of the leading advisers to Ben Bella, represents the Left position. He's a Trotskyist, or a Trotskyist sympathiser without any formal organizational ties. He is very close to the Pablo.That's Michel. He's Pablo, we could'nt have overlooked him, he's a feature of Algiers life. He played an extremely importat role in the agrarian reform, in, the type of agrarian reform that was gong to be carried out. He came down on the Yugoslav model, that is collectives which are privately owned by the collectives and run on profit model, that is on a profitbasis.Harbi were all inside of this Bureau des Biens Vacants then which/became the Bureau of the Socialist Sector. I once did an article for *Monthly Review*, so I know all about how it operated. What really happened was that the Europeans fled just before/just after Independence, rather should have, considering what they had done. But they expected a blood bath. The blood bath never took place. It was an incredible.That was one of the most incredible things to me in Algeria was that the Algerians didn't -Because the stories were horrifying. You know what happened. A month or so before, they were just shooting everybody on the street, trying to provoke them, and the discipline of the FLN vas incredible. Nobody would shoot back, no matter what they did. So they fled and they left all these farms. It was a question of ploughing and seeding. There is only a certain time of year that you have to do this. This had to be organized and it was organized almost spontaneously locally. And then-This was sort of institutionalized later, after it was an accomplished fact. They want some sort of a socialist.
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didn't know how and the institutionalizing of it was really directed bythese Trotskyists. There was Pablo, Harbi, a French lawyer named Matthieufrom Grenoble who had been involved with the FLN, and he, became sort oflegal adviser of *Biens Vacants*, which was vaguely under the jurisdiction ofthe Ministry of Agriculture which was at that time under Omar Usganwho is now Minister of State, and Director of Revolution Africaine atpresent. He replaced Harbi.Harbi is deeply resented by the army elements which are pro-Egyptian.However, the Army, despite its religious inclination hadits socialist bias and would like to see more centralization, more on anEgyptian model. In other words, they would like to see much more controlfrom the center than this confused type of regional or local control.They feel that in the long run the business of the private collectiveownership is going to cause trouble. It's all right if it is a richone, but what happens if it is a poor one? You don't split a profit, yousplit a deficit. Obviously, according to the Yugoslav model, the Stateintervenes. The State taxes the rich ones and then distributes subsidiesto the poor ones, but this a debate that is still going on in Algeria, andcuriously enough these Trotskyists have been in contact, very close contactwith the Yugoslavs. As you recall, the campaign, the so-called campagnede labeur, the ploughing, was made possible only by the delivery of 563Yugoslav tractors which turned out to the great deception of some of theAlgerians not to be Yugoslav but to be American tractors put togetherin Yugoslavia under license.((This is getting us a little bit far afield))This is Harbi and this is the group. Harbi represents the leadingspokesmen of this sort of Trotskyist-leaning Left group, and his post isstill very high, even though he is no longer Director.((When was he dropped))I think last summer. I'm not certain. With Usgan it has become muchmore the word Socialism appears in Arabic because itis felt that Socialism in French doesn't have the same meaning as it hasin Arabic. It's very silly, represents the very muddled mindthat Usgan has. He is very much split between his religious inclinations,and Usgan is a full member of the Communist party of Algeria buthe left formationalist reasons when they refused to support the rebellion, andjoined the FLN. His wife is supposed to be fanatically religious and hasmade him more religious than he was.
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((Curious mix-up - this religion and politics.))(Returning to our first subject, Strelkoff. Is he a practicing Jew?))No.(Just an ethnic Jew)Yes.((Next on the list here is Robert Williams, Whoever made this up calls him an American in Peking.))He's in Havana. He was in Peking recently and he may still be there, for that matter. He went on a second trip to the Far East, was in one of the countries that had a celebration. I think he was in Hanoi, if I'm not mistaken. He was in Asia. He may still be there.Robert Williams is a Negro, former President of the Union County North Carolina branch of the NAACP, who had a hell of a battle on his hands against the local Kuklus Klan and discovered the best way to deal with the KuKlux Klan was to shoot back at them. And it worked. They never had seen it, in that part of the south, anyway, the small towns of the South. Up until recently there's been sort of agreement in the south that the Negro civil rights groups would go into the big cities, where they would be reasonably protected. But they had to leave them. Williams rural areas alone because they couldn't expect of course, was a great embarrassment to everybody, there is no doubt,NAACP and they were on his back. He got no sympathy from the leadership. He first came to national prominence after a case of obvious injustice where some local a white man done something to a Negro woman and jury had thrown it out He said.vell if we can't get justice in the courts we'll have to take justice in our own hands. But even the fact that older, more Negroes would fight back got the old leaders very upset. He wee-immediately, People came to his support, particularly the Trotskyites, not the Communists, came in, and tried to take him over. They did some support. There had been a case before, another case, locally called the Kissing case. Two Negro boys, you may have heard of it, were sentenced to indefinite terms in prison for having kissed a six-year-old white girl. He was involvedin that and again, it was the Trotskyites who came to his support with other liberal groups. In terms of organizational support it was the Trotskyites. I heard of him at the time I was in CBS and I thought that it was very understandable and sent him a message of support. I met him at the time of the Naacp Conference in New York in 1959 and when the FPCC was formed he was among the eight Negroes who were among the 30 founding members, to the great shock of
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of the Communist Party of the United States, wich did not particularlyapprove of seeing the two issues mixed, Cuba and Negroes.Williams, very volatile, a very determined person, on a local level,has no ability whatsoever on a national level. He has become a symbolnow to Negro youth in particular, as a Negro who is not an Uncle Tom, whowill fight, We knew what was coming in the summer of 61,perhaps it was before-- no--obviouslywas embarrassment, for thenational executive of the NAACP, embarrassment for the Justice Department,and more than embarrassment, Terry Sanford, who was the Governor, and whotold him, "I wish you were dead. Period." Finally, by oneof these flukes of fate, there was demonstration over a swimming pool.They didn't want to integrate the pool. They just wanted to swim in it.But the local people said they didn't want to do that because they wouldhave to change the water, and it would take too much time to change thewater after Negroes swan in the water. So they had some demonstrations.Williams was almost murdered in one of these occasions. The demostrationswere getting pretty violent. And then King sent in some Freedom Riders whowere going to show them how non-violence was going to work in thistown. They decided to make an example. So Williams said, I'm going to getout of this. I don't want anything to do with your non-violence. Butyou go ahead and I'll see what happens.Well the non-violent demonstration became more violent There werepeople shots. There were arrests. There was an English girl who now figureshere in the British Trotskyist party, who was over there. People were comingfrom all over, reports in the European press. Willians now had nothing to do with this, he was just sort of staying theresaying well you see where non-violence gets you-- but there was a reportthat they were going to lynch the people who had been arrested. As oftenhappens in this type of thing the Negroes and whites, outside whiteswho were involved, really came in for a hill of a beating, and as in thePhiladelphia, Mississippi, case, they, have been killed. Williams was moreor less a victim of the mobin the Negro community which said "we've got todo something. We've got to free these people, get them out of jail."He had arms, including machine guns, which had been purchased inNew York and sent down there. They didn't use them because they got scared,but they had arms. The community was armed. The people, out in the streetin front of his house, when a car with a white couple came down this road,It was surrounded and they were told to get out. The crowd wanted to stringthem up right there. This man came from a neighboring