Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 211]
# Editorial signs(())query or comment by interviewer()editorial insert------ or --omission..incomplete statement--dash
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 212]
Taspe No. 3 Gibson((What do you think about that - Malcolm X))I could have told you it was coming.((Well, you did. You didn't single out Malcolm X))makeit becomesNow comes the real thing. It's going to affect the Algerian struggle.You remember the Algerian struggle throughout was marked by clashes between the MNA and the FLN right up to and after the Independence. And this is what is going to happen now in the States, as far as I can see. But what I don't really like is -- there are so many small groups, uncontrollable little groups, kids, fifteen-year-old kids who are planning to shoot the President, and that sort of thing. You don't know how far it goes.So the idea of being a leader- leader of what? As to Black Ghettoes, there this thing-- I don't know (who responsible).((Do you think that was Elijah))I'm not at all certain. There are many, many, many people who would be glad to see Malcolm out of the way. For one thing, it does resolve a certain problem and that -is, there was a clash, certainly it was going to come about between Williams's group and Boggs' men in Detroitx and Malcolm X, people who were more committed to an armed struggle. Malcolm's major contradiction was that he said-- logically, what he was preaching would have led even to negotiations with Washington, to some kind of arrangement, or else to an armed struggle, an underground struggle. As soon as you have a vocal leader who is exposed and who is in the country, one hand he knew what was happening. He was very much aware of this proliferation of groups and activities, like the little business of Walter Bove, which was highly innocuous, in comparison highly symbolic and almost innocuous, in comparison with some of the things. His trips abroad, most of his trips abroad were in a way - he wanted to create unity by contacts with Williams and others people, but here, in Europe and Cairo. One of the problems that he had was simply in getting to Williams. He didn't want to go to Havana. He probably could have brought an extraordinary amount of pressure on the State Department to allow him to go as a journalist or something like that if he really wanted to. But he didn't want to, because he didn't want to be exposed on political issue which might have cost him support. So where was he going to see Williams? Prague, perhaps, Moscow. But he didn't want to go to Eastern European countries either.((You said that one of his might have been to negotiate with
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 213]
Washington ))Exactly. At first the whole idea was that there was going to be a Black State. This was originally. But no one had any real. . . except for Elijah Muhammed's people -- I think that some of them did have. You saw the London Times article today? One of the things that disgusted him with the Elijah group was this talks with the American Nazi Party and with the Ku Klux Klan, particularly with the Klan, to buy a county, if you will, a county in Georgia, which the Ku Klux Klan was going to sell. They were going to see that all property in the country was turned over and this was going to be the nucleus of a Black State. He felt that the Muslims were seeking to perpetuate segregation for their purposes. He really was not a segregationist nor did he at the end believe in - he wasn't a racist.This is whole thing, backing away from a religous point, from a racist poia trying to find some modus vivendi for a modified Black nationalism. But he wanted to talks this over. Ikixx*sxkisx I don't know if he ever had any contacts with anyone beside New York City and State officials and police.He had rather good relations. He was extremely moderate in person and you could talk to him. I think this is what he really wanted or what would have come out of it. He just wanted the contact - to feel that there was somebody opposite him. To a lot of these people, thisx a lot of the stink could be taken out just ke by talking to them, not necessarily with publicity.for benefit((Is he wasn't involved on the racial or theological grounds, what was))Not a racist. For instance, it is said that the Muslims are anti-white and there is an anti-white elements, and particularly and an anti-Semitic directed elements, against Jewish shopkeepers. Obviously the Jewish shopkeepers, being exposed, being in the Ghetto, the resentment comes out against then. In New York it comes out against the Jewish element in the garment district. as many Negroes work in the garment district. It is unskilled, underpaid. and sweat shop type of thing. I must say that Malcolm sometimes played this tune himself. He knew it was facile, and also it pleased the Arabs. fxpxxxjx from whom he received considerable support.(You mean the Cairo type Arabs?))Yess, the Nassertype. I don't know how much support he ever received financially, but I think they did receive support. And also the Black Muslimsx did receive support at certain times. It was no accident that he set kup a headquarters in exile in Cairo. He did go to Ghana and I know that in Ghana he was attacked by the orthodox Marxists. They are the first to launch an attack, for Black fascisa or something. I feel that he was evolving, trying to get out of a box. His reaction was that of a Negro who
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 214]
gose up in a Ghetto, who becomes a criminal under pressures, he is intellignt he ix extremely intelligent. Not an intellectual but far more capable as an organizer say, than Willians. Williams is utterly hopeless. And He is not slow to catch ideas, but he has certain fixed ideas which have developed, certainly under pressure. Malcolm was moving and he as a figure could have done a lotto0.((Was this a maturing))Yes, a maturing, a process of facing reality also. I suppose this is an explanation to a large extent of why there are so many children who are young kids, who are really involved in the nationalist movement. They're facile, frustrated. They don't know what elsel They feel that the older organizations are i acapable of doing anything for them. There is a class thing. They feel that there is sort of a Black bourgeoisie for whom there is now in general ahas sold them out, but they, possibility of integration, but they who live in the Ghettoes, who go to the bad schools, who come out of poor homes and so forth, by the time they're sixteen, they their hope of, their the real hopes of integration, of being something in contemporary American society, is dead. It's this whole business, the motivation in schools, the good schools, the housing and the family even. If a child grows up in a home where they don't have books- there is a great difference between a Jewish child in the Lower East Side, xxex no matter how poor that family, motivated by a kaks long Jewish tradition, sxxxxxx and a Negro child or a Puerto Rican child, Middle Class ideals are beginning to sink down into the devishxanax Negro community, but among Puerto Ricans there is an even greater gap, so I understand, -----Many of these Negro kids, they just feel this enormous wall around them, and one of the things that I am most aware of, even-- when I was a child, I grew up in Philadelphia. Many of my friends were white. We lived in a neighborhood in West Philadelphia which had Negro and white Irish, Cathelies, Jewish people, Italian, in proximity. Lived in the same block. That neighborhood now is solidly black. The shool I went to was always mixed. Now most of these schools are black. There is more segregati today, yhrough real estate, through housing, than there was 20 years ago.((Is this intentional or is this because this was an area that was mised and where a Negro could nove in and so Negroes did.))Yes. One of the problems is that around most American cities the city line marks the end of expansion for Negroes. They can't move into the suburbs. A middle class Negro who has money can nove into the sububys. And what areas they can move into are filled up. The whites flee out of
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 215]
the city, xX((Washington would be the primary example of that))Washington is that much more complicated because you are in the midst of the Southern States. Except that I notice, I have relatives that live around Washington. As a kid I used to go to Washington every summer. And going out towards Chevy Chase and Montgomery county, the Maryland side, there is a certain desegregation that has gone on. Obviously on the Virgini side it is the opposite. Also the Maryland counties to the South. That is a more segregated area. That is also the history-- the sort of slave line. in Maryland before the Civil War sort of went where Washington is now. across the State, to the South were they grow tobacco there was slavery, to the North there was no slavery. And there was a great deal of intermarriage- not intermarriage but racial intermixture. I have relatives who are to all intents and purposes white. When I was a child and went there in the summer, I really had no real awareness of race. It was a curious background of interracial mixture, that had gone on just before and after the Civil War. Now that has changed considerably., That's in Montgomery county.I brought the address book.((It's extremely interesting to consider the racial problem at home but I would like to finish this up.))Yes. What sort of addresses do you want.((The people we talked about))This is Hassan Riad. Amoui is his name, we may have Amser. Boit postale 3.186 - Dikat, SenegalM. Amiabel. was a Canadian, former Communist. He was setting up, he did set ap a pro-Chinese group near Vancouver. Apparently there was considerable activity there. (6323 Marine Drive, Burnaby 3, B. C., Canada)This is address of the Mulana. To the best of my knowledge Verges never heard from himx yet (Bhashani - % Janatar Weekly, 16/20 Reba Roy, Lave)BOSGRAVokegra Is a very interesting person, in Holland. He is a man who works with Andersson occasionally. He is not a Communist, is a vague Leftist with the Christian Pacifists, the Pacifist Socialist Party, in Holland, which has gathered in a strange grouping of Leftists. He has and Algerians. contacts with the Angolans. He goes to Algeria quite often. I have a feelin' he is somewhat connected with the Girtut people.
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 216]
# MichelChartain xin, you know. He is secretary general of the Partie Social-iste de Quebec and is of course very much connected with the Cubans. And has had a great deal of contact with American Negro groupsx of the Left.- QLN, Congo, in Brazzaville. It's so open, and so obvious, you know. They used to send things (Apartado Aéreo 13777, Zona 1, Bogata - or Ap. Aereo 15332 Boyta).In Colombia, Alfonso Cuellar- this address is where they receive Not (?) special materials. Things that they think will get by the censorship. These things came from peking. They came to Revolution.*   The one great advantage of Revolution was if one watched it closely you could find i at one time, not any more, but certainly in the arly period, they weren't told by the Chinese to come there but they had seen Revolution on sale (Orlando LINERO. Cable 56, No. 63-30, Barranquilla, Colombia).Colonia Anahuac Mexico D.F.Federico Emery, was a Mexican settžez, who had been in Peking and was supposed to be representing the Mexican Marxist-Leninist group, the pro-Chinese group. (Tizoc #19, Col. Anahuac, Mexico 17, D.F.)Jurema Finamour, this poor Brazilian. who was involved in a most vague way. Verges put this person's name- I don't know whether it is a man or woman- think it's a woman- on the magazine, actually never received xxtxin anything from her. I heard later that she was pro-Moscow, certainly not pro-Chinese. She's probably in jail now, after the coup down there.FALLOTM.& MacJean Fuyou. This is the fellow who was Communist leader in the Haute Loire, who is the only one who is still supposed to remain in contact. Le Chambon sur Lignon, Haute Loire, Everybody knows Mrs. Gumawardene. The Russians claim is parachuted everywhere. (P.O. Box 300, Dept 245, Peking)Gregoris Goldenberg, in Peking, is Chilean. He works, think he works, inside of the Foreign Languages press. He is correspondent for El Mundo of Havana. At one time he was correspondent for the Cuban radio. He was a very curious fellow. He wanted to set ia up a Spanish edition of Revolution with Chinese money and offered to do this, when he came through Paris, butx about a year ago. Verges managed to avoid ever giving him any answer on this. He actually offered to bring the money. for this.Lian Su-yin. Very interested in the magazine. She sent material from Cambodia and Verges does have some contacts in Cambodia, someone in the office of Norodom Sihanouk. A Frenchman, I think his name is Mayer. He was close to the chief of state.Elpheus Hunter. V. A. Hunton. Anyone would know him in Accra.undoubtedly Charles Meyer well-known in Phnom Penh
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 217]
His group at the university of glient, which no longer exists, so iful'a told.MASAO KITAZAWA - 20 Mahommes Said Flat 81. Cairo gard, was the Japanese representative to the Afro-Assian Solidarity Conference. He used to pass through Paris quite regularly. I don't think he is there any longer. Was much interested in the magazine. He used to use the psaxex pseudonym of Walter Jobzcba sometimes.SWAPU was one of the leaders of the faepe ofAbKarina?Southwest Africa.used to send in articles. I knew him personally from New York.has been going back and forth between Peking and also Hast Germany and West Germany. He's playing all sides. on this Southwest Africa thing.Cozengizi is the head of Scent, the other Southwest Africa group.(SWANG & SWAPU)Thaxs They have a unity. once there was a struggle between Gorina Kozengizi Reліна.and Gochambina. I was virtually eliminated. Corina is an American agent, Cosma Kamnaand so forth. The Last story that I heard about Corina was that he was working for the Peace Corps in Bechuanaland. These are the stories that they circulated. Corina has been unable to hold up his end of it. He is Carmakind of sulking. And violence hasn't helpt him at all. KazeveseCoghamrina but it'shas embarrassed people i over and over- monomania for this worked.Abdul Rahim KARIM (Special representative, in London, for Verges.He is in Singapore. His article on Malaysia, against Malaysia, was greatly appareicated by the Indonesian government and a large number of copies of the issue of Revolution which contained it were bought up and i twas later reproduced. We received from Indonesian Embassies all around sub- sex*ytiaxx. orders for that issue. Subscriptions came from the UN, their missions to the UN, perhaps here in London.Julian Acadamy of Science, P.0. Bax 2848. Accta.Layfield in Ghana doesn't use this address as often as he used to.because he is now editor of something called the African Review. It is a new magazine..Phone 717032.F.M.MOLL-Amstelkade 157,Now here's an interesting fellow- Kona, I aver quite figured hinSurinamout. He is a Rams Prom nationalist. in Amsterdam. He is close to almost all the Left parties. there. He pret4nds to be Marxist but claims that he dispute.is not involved in the Sino-Soviet sekisa. He doesn't want anything to do with that. That is the reason he never wrote anything for the magazine. though I did see hin. *
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 218]
Carlos Moore. I have no address for him. He is an Afro-Cuban boy whom I first met in New York. He is in Paris and you might be able to reach him through *Presence Africaine*. He supposediy was writing a book about CubaHe was very much involved with Hobert Williams, with Malcolm X, he is extremely young but very active in bady. He is of Jamaican origin. There is a Jamaican minority in eastern Cuba, in Camaguey and Oriente Province. That's how you get names like Moore, etc. His father and brother live in New York, his motheris still in Cuba. He went back to Cuba after the Bay of Pigs, and went to school there. He became very disillusioned.He left, claiming that there was racial discrimination and so forth in Cuba.He went to Cairo. He managed to get out, and he went on a Yugoslav ship, I think or a Greek ship, and got to Egypt. He had met some Angolans.of the UPA who had been in Havana and they took care of him for a while until there was a split inside of the UPA, and the fellow who was there quit and went to Switzerland. He brought Moore out to Switzerland. Then Carlos wound up in Paris, where still is, to best of my knowledge.He supposedly has written an article for *Presence Africaine* which is violently counter-revolutionary.He claims there is no revolution.His position, is relatively *bizarre*. It's not terribly justified.But what I think is, that here is a case of Black Nationalism in the States being transported to Cuba. What he claims is that the only Cuban revolution that remains to be made that would be valid would be a black revolution. and that reallay the population of Cuba is overwhelmingly black, or of African descent, and that this has been a plot that has gone on for generations even now fith Fidel Castro, particularly Dorticos, he claims, the white leadership has been able to perpetuate itself regardless of the political thing. This is his theme. He is interesting but extremely wild and emotional. I think it's a case where the intoxication of Harlem never went off. Anyway he might be worth talking to.The Congress for Cultural Freedom people were going to try to get in touch with him but they weren't any too convinced that his thesis was correct. I don't think so. He claims of course that I am completely blinded by my pro-Castro sympathies. He claimed that Williams was very unhappy for racial reasons in Cuba. I thought that Williams was simply unhappy, He couldn't speak Spanish. He was under pressurex from the American Communists and Soveit Communists that didn't like him, the old Cuban Communists, which was one of the reasons for his wholehearted tura towards Peking.That was the only way out. And he wanted to come back to the States.
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 219]
The FBI was in no mood- we could probably have arranged samstig something werent that is that he was a fugitive,if the Federal thing xxsxts going to be held against his, that Rockefeller most likely wouldn't extradite himKew York. There were talks on this. A bawyer by the name of Conrad Lynn had discussed this txith, a Negro lawyer who was a party called connected with the Freedom Now Party, another Black Nationalist group, but with basically a Trotskyite front. It was put up 99% by the FWP which was one of the reasons for its failure. This lawyer was well aware of Willians's desire to come back to the United States if he could stay out of the hands of a North Carolina lynch mob. The one talk I had with the FBI people convinced me that they were in no nood whatsoever, even though they realized what the situation was.(Pan Afaican Press-PO. 8164 - Prints, Private Box 8159. Pinto is a very curious fellow. Pinto is a man who is close to Kenyatta. the In Kenya. who has or is involved with & Pan-African press, who is not hooked up with Odinga, not openly in any case, but who is sort of playing all sides, looking for hand-outs. I understand that he -received substantial Sums belp from Russia, so that he has shown more Muscovite color than any other. J. 48 Balcombe, Land NW? William, Pomeroy is the American who was captured with the Huks in the Philippines, you remember? He lives here in London, more or less retired from politics except that he writes. That's how he earns his living.But he depends more or less on the good graces of the British Labor Party the Left of that party and the British Communist Party to stay here.What he has to say about the failure of the guerrilla campaign in the Philippines and the present Leftward turn in the Philippines apparently---ProgressiveThere is an outfit called the Philippine Review which I think we (Revolution) gave publicity to- here it is-- the Progressive Review. It is connected with Pomeroy. They are about as Communist as they can get under the present xxi an law of the Philippines. They have hopes of what they call the Anti-Imperialist ground swell, in other words, an anti-American trend in the present government. They felt that the anti-Malaysia campaign might help, and the editor has been very much in contact with the Indonesians. He has been to Djakarta on several occasions recently. He is in contact with Pomeroy. Pomeroy's of what he says position is one inwhich he has to be very careful because the British Communists will dump him. His wife is Philippine.She can't get an American visa, so they have to live here. This makes him the captive of a certain part of the British Labor Left and the British CP. His book, *The Forest*, was published here and in the States by Communist publishing houses. It is an account of the guerrilla campaign in the Philippines, at least his personal account, but he pointed out to me, that it is also an account of its failures. He has tried to keep out of the Sino-Soviet thing but I have
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 220]
a feeling that if the situation in the Philippines changed both he anddhis wife would like to go back there. This is what he may be going (workingfor) through his contacts with the Progressive Review. I don't knows howfar they have contacts with the people inside the Philippinexx governmentbut they claim to have.))Shashicant R. Patel - 8 Mochar Canji, Dixit Rd, Bombay 57. was an Indian from Bombay who vráte severalarticles. He is a business man and I imagéhe a rather successful business among other things,man. Heis in on the fringe of the Indian Communist Party and now involvedwith the pro-Chineseving of the party.MadsgxKundi Modhav Kunji Dir R2 Bombay 57Strelkoff address - 151 Ave. Sufrin, Paris 15, From S4F 5436Miss C.J. SNETHLAGENex-lage from Amsterdam is the head of the Cuba group. the conCuba committee in Holland, She is very prominent in this Pacifist SocialistParty. She is very to Cuba despite her advanced ageshe is seventy-some, and very active. SheTorila SKARD, % GOMNAES. C 14 Studentbyen, Oslo, norwerfSklaar is a student leader in Norway. I think shenow a member of Parliament. She did a lot of publicity for the magazine.Dr. Leiva Samper- MOEC ерлесеütative in Paris He is a doctor, a cardiologist and seems to be quita distinguished one. He is a heart surgeon. (129 Rue de Toibiac, Paris 13ePhone POR47-39Schwartzenberg is my lawyer in Paris.SINE-35 Rue de Cichy pn. TRI 73-32.Manuela SIXES is a member of the Liberal Party (UK.) She's a standingcandidate for Ipswich, very pro-Cuban and pro-Algerian. She's got a lotof influence inside the party because of who she sleeps with. I don'tknow who it is, but I've heard an awful lot of stories.Jose Torretti/ Venturelli, Calla E, #158 1-B, Vedado, HavanaHavana, is a Venezuelan artist and member ofsupposedly very very interested in the magazine.He is a friend of MIXERS Martha Dodd, you may find on the cards the magazinwas going to his c/o Martha Dodd at the Havana Libre hotel.Martha Dodd had no direct contact with the magazine. She sunt reportedly hadtaken quite a pro-Chinese position but to be so hopelessly compromised withthe Czechs and Russians that she can't say too much except en cachet, toeverybody she meets, especially young people. Whether this is her realattitude or not, I don't know. She might also be doing this to gain theconfidence of people. There is no question that Venturelli is her veryclose friend.Costas Veropolous is a student group leader from Greece, whoedited a Magazine in Greece called Africa Asia Latin America. It was acut-down version of Revolution and represented for the Greek youth,the left wing of the BC. EDA