Francesco/who-killed-jfk huggingface dataset:
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 160]
(*Shouldn't be too aggressive too soon, after established in France, that sort of thing;*)I don't know. After all, they have reasonably good relations with the French so I think probably the French will be disappointed that they haven't them been able to get more concrete things out of *thexakisuke*, trade and so forth.(The French don't want the Chinese to~)too much. /Dabble in French politics/ However, everyone knove-cne of the things- someone threatened- Verges-once-eaid, No nothing to do-with-Verges--it was a friend Lou of mine who works for ABC television in Paris, *roodangdooobes Chioffi*, talking to someone about Revolution in the French Foreign Ministry he said- what do you think about this Chiness. He always thought there was something about this what do you think about this Chinese magazine put out here? And he said- I don't know anything about it. Besides if we wanted to examine subsidies that go into the political publications in France we would certainly start with the Russians and *Humanite* and then go on with financed some of your American/publications. (laughs) And that was the end of that!That may have just been a sort of snide rejoinder. I think that they intend do tant to be discreet, that they were very happy about the situation there. I was in the Chinese Embassy only once. I was invited to a reception. of governmentI never saw so many people from a top bracketer as at that reception. Everybody - they had the Legion de' Hosnews, Use the top structure- TheEverywhere you went they had a Legion d'Honneur in his button. The top structure of the civil servicwere there - from all the important industries.((What's Kim's loyalty then))Kim's Chen's- loyalty is based basically to himself. He's interested in Marxisa,He's very academic winded. He really is a pedantic, academic person.And he's got a tremendous number of interests. He is a very hard worker when he works. It's he who writes and reviites most of the magazine. He used to write most of the editorials. Verges does very little. He does not like to write. He doesn't like to be bothered with editorial things.He likes the promotional aspects of things. He likes to convene meetings every so often and to discuss things. But as for the actual running of things though he did exercise a loser control over the French edition than he did over the English edition, he never- well once or twice he said put this in or don't put this in. He printed an article about Algeria which
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 161]
#was veiled criticism, in the French issue, and he told me not to print that, for instance, in the English edition, his story being that he didn't want to embarrass the Chinese. He said that after all the Chinese were buying about this and this was wasn't their line w Algeria and they might be asked embarrassing questionsby the Algerians- Baying why do you distribute this magazine, distributor which has this sort of unfriendA9rafie. pagasinca-which has this unfriendly article.((You mean the Chinese were buying),The Chinese at that time were buying 3000 copies of the English edition. 300 the French. They didn't seen to mind z the 300 FrenchIn actual fact, the Chinese so far as I know never made any comment about the magazine, or its contents. None whatsoever.((Is Chosté villingness to go to Maspero and knock Verges and go th Andersson and knock Maspero- is this inconsistent with his pedantic Marxism?)For hin a lot of it is academic. It's not related too much to life, except that he is a plotter, a born conspirer. He loves to have ten people around him and to tell then what to do, how to maneuver. Of course whatever he tells then generally turns out to be disastrous for them.For example, the so-called pro-Chinese students inside of the UEC, the Union des Etudiantes Gesagas Comunistes at their congress last year-- lot's-sea they've got_one.coming up he was the one behind who was telling them what to do, their tactics and strategy. They had a terrible catastrophe.(laughing) In fact the pro-Chinese students represent a negligible faction nov inside of the Communist students, the largest faction being the Italian The faction, which is actually financed by the Italian Communist Party. Struggle has gone on for years between the French party and the Italian party and it continues there. themselves Then he had a group of youths called the Drapeau Rouge group. They put out who again a four-page, like a newsletter, which he promised to get money from Verges to subsidize. Verges had no money, as you know. One single issue came out.Proletario, with Valdes, managed to keep on because Valdes had his own (sestrap) sources of income from the Spaniards who belonged to it/ apparently. They kicked in quite a lot, month, you know, to keep it going. It wasn't too expensève. The main thing is finding a printer who will priat it clandestinely, in France. Because all these things-that have-no Under French law you're supposed to have a Bisectors association who is responsible for it and anything in a foreign language is exempt from the liberty of press, from freedom of press, in France. The only foreign languages that you can use are Basque and Breton and I think, Alsatian dialect.
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 162]
For a magazine addressed to the Spanish workers in France and in Western Europe, the problem was for them to find someone to print it clandestinely.And they found someone I think with Sinet and Strelkoff.(What about Strelkoff).Let's go down the line. The next one in order would be Castell;-Chastel(?) is the nephew of Joseph Casteli of the French Academy.((Castollle first name?).PatriquePatrick. He is the nephew of a very famous man and he has worked, again, for Maspero. All these people worked for Maspero. Verges takes great pleasure in sort of taking people away from Maspero. He used to boast about the people that he had gotten away from Maspero. I suppose this -- fellow can't do anything for us, so why do you want to get hia?Maspero bring Maspero down -- he is extremely petty in this sense,and once he built up this grudge against Maspero, because he felt that Maspero didn't support his 100% when he wanted to buy, and then when he wanted to buy.Maspero wasn't interested in combining forces. So from that point on he did everything possible in a petty way.He went to the Chinese and said Maspero was a Trotskist. The joke of the matter was that all of the Trotskyists who had been in this organization, andI'm sure they are there, came through Chen. It was Chen who had introduced them to Maspero. And Maspero was the sort of person who couldn't care less whether the Trotskyites got in as long as there was some sort of free discussion. He's not a committed person anyway; he's a man who is sentimentally on the left but outside of any party, and for whom this thing has become a fairly good business. Those magazines are by no means expensive. Only sell about 2000 copies per issue, which is all now that sells Revolution- it has come down a long way.Anyway, Chassel was one of Maspen's authors and he worked for Algeria Liberation. He's been to Laos and to the French West Indies, He's a journalist. He's worked I think for France Observateur.He's never been a member of the Communist Party. His main problem is trying to be bigger one day than his uncle, whom he dislikes intensely but nevertheless finds very useful, His uncle is very tight with his money,but in any case he gives him credit He says I am Kessel, and they aren't certain whether it's him or the nephew or son, so they give him credit. He was the business manager. He knows damn little about business, but be-was.Verges had a great deal of confidence in his and he knew a lot about money manipulation and so forth.
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 163]
Verges tried to divide things up. On two occasions Verges asked me to change some money. In one case he gave him a brief case which contained $30,000 to cash, and asked him to go to the bank and change it to French francs. I went into the bank and said I wanted to change some money. They didn't faint, nor ask any questions either. Then on the second occasion I think I changed only $2000. It was in cash, in hundred dollar bills. And the other one was in ten dollar bills. That was the problem, they had to count it all. They weren't at all pleased. Where he got the money from I don't know. It was in used American bills, old bills, what wrappers on them had no identification. But he didn't want anyone else to know. He didn't want Cassell to know I had changed it.(You say Cassell was never in the French Communist Party)No.(Why not?)I don't think Cassall is a person without even intellectual he likes to live well and the party's bureaucratic organization doesn't attract intellectualsm very long. Many of them go throught it but just that. They go in and out. In fact it's almost- it's very good reference if you've been in and out of the party. You've got so many people who have been in and out of the party that you can go almost anywhere and find sympathy and jobs and so on.People at Expresse and so on are made up of people of that type.(Does Cassell write?)Yes. He has written one or two articles for Revolution, but very little. The only thing that he used to do was to re-write some of then's things, the editorials in particular, after then had worked on them, to put them into really good French. then's French sometimes has a tendency to be very esoteric and baroque.((No substantive editorial work))No. He is definitely a lesser figure but he likes his position. He likes being the sort of front men. Though be with the financial troubles, he was the one who did suffer most. Because all the creditors got to him. Verges was hiding, didn't come into the office sometimes for days, or would come in only for a very short period of time, Because he was afraid that people would want to serve summones and whatnot on him for debt. Cassell was there. Cassell was not a member of the company, I thought he was.By the way I don't know whether I got that correct, yesterday. That was the Bureau No. 6 where the- 22nd of August- that was 63. When they set up the company.(That is Bureau no. 6)
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 164]
Now Sine,Sinet is listed with Strelkoff as Secretaire de la Redaccion,which sounds like he had something to do with the editorial side of itbut has nothing to do with that. He is of course the partner of Verges,at least on paper. Whether the 2000 thousand francs in his name actuallyrepresent his money I doubt. I think it is probably all Verges'money. I think that Verges needed at least another person to go into the*   He is the lay-out, make-up (man), When Verges-went into    the layout, art work, cartoons, (He handle photos, too??)) Well, yes,    They look around to see where the can get them. But as they have    just send    no money now, it's just a matter of begging. They used to buy almost    exclusively from Magnum. that's why they had so many Cartier-Bresson.    Magnum has beautiful photos, except they are expensive. And then they    couldn't pay them.((Sinet is French))His real name is Maurice Sinet. He is French. He is in his thirties.Martied, rather unhappily; has one child, which his wife claims is not his.He's more of an anarchist. He was in the French Communist Party but fora very brief period, I gather. He is very virulent. Before Revolutioncame out he put out his own little magazine, cartoon magazine calledSine Massacre which was the most virulent cartoon I've ever seen.They depicted things like the clergy, love very, very,sick type of cartoon, which contrasted greatly from what made him famous,the Sine cat. He made a fortune with his cats and he also had a tie-inSine's-cat.with some promotional things, Key-chain and othersThat's where of course he made a lot of money. He does a lot of commercialart work. He sells quite a bit here in England. He does work for Britishad agencies.(Why does a man this successful put this much effort into Revolution?)Because he is-- again, the same sort of thing- he is an emotionalleftist, very-much incapable of any real organizational (work)-So is Verges. I think that no matter what sort of organization, he couldn'tstay (with it) too long. He must be the big boss of it. He must bea grand patron. Sinet is more , much more juvenile. He is forever throwingbottles of ink you know! His financial success has been seriously endan-gered by - not from Revolution, but the business of SinetMassacre because Mme. De Gaulle did not like what she consideredblasphemous cartoons, and so he was arrested for Outrage publique,outrage a la police, outrage au chef d'Etat- - He got out of most of
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 165]
then but it cost a lot of money - it put this thing out of existence and Mme de Gaulle said she thinks he is a very nasty man.(Does he get paid by Revolution or does he supply funds for Revolution)No, he supposedly gets the same thing that everyone else gets-getting 1500 francs a month. Everyone allegedly gets or did receive 1500. He has an assistant because he can't devote much of his time to it. He's got to earn a living. He has a very expensive establishment. His mother and father, wife and child, maintains two cars and has a three story- sort of duplex, bigger than an apartment. It is magnificent, on the Rue Plichy in Paris, In order to maintain this he's got to find ways of earning a living, mainly advertising work. He had worked for *Express* which paid him very well, but he broke with them on a political issue. He likes to eat well, drink well and run around after women and this is expensive. So a lot of the work, the donkey work, is done by Strelkoff, whose real name is Alexander Strelkoff.The main thing to read in Verges are the editorials. That's the only thing ginsberg (?) cared about. The editorials are very-- towards the end for example, there's the phrase - "it's better to have for the future a failure that is luminous, un chef lumineux, than success in confusion" whatever that means. This is Verges' line in many things. They're (editorials) filled with phrases - he wanted at one point to circle these phrases with a crayon to show people that his line has always been the same.GINZBERG? - is Pierre Villon (FCP cc)(real name) coincidence?
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 166]
THIRD SESSION19 February 1965![empty document page]
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 167]
# Reel no. 2(You have an acute memory for the last phrase of yesterday.)I happen to be a journalist.(You have a very retentive mind. You do very well about these things.)As you get older you forget. Doesn't it frighten you sometimes when you can't think - of a name- I'm really beginning to feel bad about .* something I can't remember- I think my God, what's happening. Strekkoff is Alexander Strelkoff. He is in his early thirties, son of Russian immigrant parents in France,((Born in France?))Born in France. Speaks Russian fluently. His parents were members of the Communist Party in Russia, / but with Trotskyite tendencies. That's why they had to get out of Russia after the Revolution but he has no Trotskyist leanings at all. In fact because of his parents, he seems more or less to lean the other way, to be at least verbally, a violent Stalinist. He is married and has three (children), these by one wife, has one illegitimate and several others. He is very active sexually.He is very handsome fellow and has a great deal of success with girls.He earns his living as a graphic designer. He worked for Hachette layouts for them, until the great Sinet Massacre scandal, when Mad. de Gaulle finally took umbrage at this. He and Sinet were the two cartoonists who put this out, and(Strelkoff can draw, as well))Yes. In those things I gave you you will see cartoons by Strekkoff.He is essentially an artist, though noone ever printed his cartoons before he ran into Sinet because they were considered just too disgusting for putain. He is really the acolyte, if you will, of Sinet. And any success, any money that he has comes to him through Sinet. He is Sinet's man, and Sinet passes on work to him.They sort of pass around girls to each other and that sort of thing.He does, nevertheless, count for a certain amount in the magazine. He did count, because he was considered-reasonably disinterested. That is, he wasn't concerned very much about money. He lives very poorly, with his wife and children, and has made far more sacrifices than Sinetbut he is very loyal, I was going to say, a faithful retainer, of Sinet's. I think that would sum him up. His loyalty is to Sinet and not to Verges.
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 168]
((What are his principal types of contact outside of...))He doesn't have any contacts outside of--. His contacts are mainly body to body with girls. In terms of politics, he didn't like the idea that perhaps *Ghen* was deeply involved with Trotskyism, that sort of thing, but that was just small calibre (?), his scruples. He wanted to keep it going. He was very anti-Chinese in the sense that he didn't think that the magazine should accept any Chinese money if the Chinese were willing to give it, the reason for this being that he thinks that should have a free hand in the arts, and so forth, jazz and all this, which of course he and Sinet are very much interested in.((He's a literary liberal, then- ))Yes, in terms of the arts, he would be. He doesn't care much for abstract art, but((But he's not a party liner))By no means. A former Communist, but he wasn't expelled. He also just withdrew.((If his parents were emigres from Russia, I assume this would have been in the twenties, eh))Yes, in the twenties, just before he was born. because of their Trotskyist leaning. I suppose they were members of the Trotskyist faction* of the Soviet Communist party at that time.((Do you know whether they were expelled or left voluntarily))I don't know. I think they left voluntarily, but that's just supposition. I think he mentioned something about it. I think that they really fled ahead of the Soviet police, the Cheka- - he's Jewish, and maybe some of his relatives did end up in Soviet concentration camps. I think he still has some living relatives (in Russia) yes, because he was one of the chefs de chantier, construction foreman, in the final stages of the French exposition Moscow. That was in 61 or 62. He speaks Russian fluently, There we he met some of his relatives.((His he made other trips to the Soviet Union))I think he has made two trips. But One was with the French exposition. he was there before and I think throughout the exposition, putting it up and so on. He is very competent as a designer, a little bit lazy--but other that that he tries to get other people to do his work for him if he can, just as Sinet passes it on to him he tries to pass it on to others. Where money is concerned he is not terribly scrupulous but he's not money hungry. His weakness is women. Very much so. He shocked the Anderssons. He used to come to Lausanne and he had so many girls
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 169]
to meet(?)they couldn't keep up (with it).(Did Sinet bring him to *Revolution*),Yes. He was delegated to do the work of the English edition. Sinet couldn't do it and this was before the *French edition* was started in France, so it was Strelkoff who did it. He came to Lausanne for a couple of days to do the layout and so on. Then he found someone in Lausanne, then major a Swiss graphic artist, *commercial artist*, who did the *main* part of the work. Strelkoff came to oversee it.That's about all there is about him. It's not very much, really.He's not very *active* politically. His life centers around females, jazz, night clubs. He would get drunk occasionally. He shares Sinet's tastes there - and women.Now after Chen, Grewgil and Sinet and Strelkoff, you have really reached the end of the *editorial staff* as such. There was an editorial board which was a fiction. It had names of people like Babu on it. Babu saw Verges actually twice. He never contributed anything to the magazine except one interview which I did with him, in Geneva, when he was at the UN Conference and office on Trade Development.((Babu's biographic details are well enough known but how did he come to get involved in Revolution in the first place.))He was suggested by Denis Pombera, Denis-Pombere is now the delegate from Tanzania to the UN. Pombera is spelled with an h. Phombesht.Denis Phombeah is a former student - he's a Tanzanian diplomat now.He is Tanganyikan by birth. He was the secretary of the Committee of African Organizations here in London for a number of years. This was a Ghana-subsidized attempt to group together and unify all of the various African national groups. He's married to a girl by the name of Ilona Bidieva. She is a Jewish girl from London. Her parents also former leftists. But she is very much anti-Communist. Dennis has very close ties with the British Communist party. He was a member of their African student committee.They had a committee headed by a woman named Kay Beauchamp (Beecham) who was delegated to sort of watch over the African students and they didn't have very much success. But Dennis was able to milk them, the Ghana Government, by getting a subsidy, plus he had direct ties with the Soviets. He was a graduate student at Moscow University under Professor Ivan Potekhin (n.n.?) Potekhin. He is now dead, as you know, he was the head of their African studies department. He was getting his doctorate. I think it was in anthropology, I don't know exactly. But he was one of the very few persons
[104-10217-10221.pdf — page 170]
getting a doctorate in Moscow while sitting in London, and his wife spent most of her time writinghis thesis. He would tell her, "now read this book and tell me what it says" and then "work this into my general thing".He had very little time. He also had some connections with the Chinese and had been to Peking, when I don't know, and had been invited to go to Peking lastsummer. He managed to keep from getting there. I suppose he felt that if he went he did go to Moscow on several occasions, theoretically it was to see Prof. Potenkin That was just before Datenretts death.The Zanzibar revolution is a year old, so it was before the Kanzibar Revolution at was early last year, must-have-been-xxxxxxk. I saw him last at Orly Airport when he wast- - -He came through I guess soverl-veeke-later on his way to Moscow. He took the Air France flight and he had an hour to kill in Paris, and I went out to the airport and saw him. He gave mexxnsxpictures photos of Zanzibar.Yes. They told me. This was for the magazine. Some of the photos that later appeared were the photos he brought. They were all one could get.Then he took the Air France flight to Warsaw and Moscow. When he cane back of course, although he was Tanganyikan, Babu knew him and had strong confidence in him and apponted him adviser to the Zanzibar High Com- mission here in London. The Commissioner, who had been one of the Sultan's men, had left. There had been a Civil Seruant by the name of Omar, Omar Zoran, who remained. He said he didn't want to lost his pension, revolution or no revolution. He didn't know much about revolutions. In fact, he vas very touching, because he asked us could we suggest books that he could read about revolutions. He was a tine server. While he was quite useful as the First Secretary, nevertheless Babu couldn't trust his.tSo Dennis, was put in as a sort of watchdog.When the Geneva Conference came up, Dennis was there xxxthaxawaz dakugxinx as Bake.kaxxi, the chief de gate, from Zanzibar. In fact, he had everybody sexdałagatex sitting in as delegates, I sat in as a delegate from Zanzibar for a few minutes without even knowing it till to go out. Somebody came up and took my photograph. I assumed that I was either being photographed by the CIA or by the State Department or the Soviet side or both.No. I assume it was for consumption. There was an East German