EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Some people come to visit the communities mostly, but there seems to be more and more teachers who have been retired in the south come up north to help out. So they don’t seem to work too hard in trying to teach our children.
Again, we usually get teachers who haven’t gone through the Teacher Education Program at all. They are put in as regular teachers in the classroom.
I also believe what Mr. Alagalak said, (interpretation ends) “…it is also important that parents and students are confident that the quality of education provided in Nunavut is equal to that provided in other provinces and territories across the country.” (interpretation) I truly believe that to be the case and we should have teachers who are eager to teach our children so that our grade levels are comparable to the rest of Canada.
I think that would be best for the students.
Using the point system in our schools, it isn’t beneficial at all for our children. They graduate even though their levels are way under par if you compare it to the rest of Canada.
In our community, I don’t know what it’s like in the other communities, usually there’s professional development days held on a work week and also there are usually a lot of school days where they are closed. I’m sure that the teachers can find other hours so that the students can achieve education to the best of their ability.
At times, they are missing so many days due to PD days or other reasons. The student loses interest and eventually starts to fall back.
That’s what happens in my community and I’m sure that it happens in the other communities.
We heard that the government is going to have Inuktitut as the working language by 2020.
It’s already less than 14 years away.
If you are going to have Inuktitut as the working language in the government system, it takes many, many years for you to learn. We have to take it seriously and start working towards that goal now if we are going to achieve our goal, as was set out in 1999.
In regard to Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit, we talk about integrating it into the government system. Nothing is happening to date.
If you are going to teach Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit to the workforce and to the students, then we will need individuals who can teach those subjects. If you are going to use the Inuit who do know Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit, they have to be full-time workers in our schools.
We talk about the education authority that doesn’t have any powers at all. They’re just an entity that was created by the government with no authority and no real power.
They’re just there as somebody that can buffer and take the complaints instead of the complaints going to the government heads.
Their responsibility and role can very likely be taken care of by the school principal.
I think that it’s about time that we utilize the education authorities at the community level, give them real roles and responsibilities, and to be fully integrated in the education system.
It comes as no surprise to members; I think that this department is probably one of the most important departments in the government and it’s the department that is going to create, nurture, and develop our future and it’s our young people.
My colleague has made some comments that I agree with. I think that we need to look at, I think the minister said it last week, raise the bar as far as education levels in Nunavut.
I think it is not appropriate when students are graduating from grade 12 in Nunavut, not all of them but some of them, and then they go to take a program at the college and they can’t handle it, so they’ve got to create an access year, which is basically a neat word for upgrading.
The only reason they got it as an access year is that with an access year, they are able to qualify for funding to be able to go to it and not adult basic education where they don’t get anything to go, except for the few measly dollars they get increased in income support.
But I think this government has to take a serious look at the quality of education, and as I mentioned last week, quit taking all kinds of opportunities to say, “What a wonderful system we have.
Look how great it is,” and all of the good things about it, while ignoring the things that are not doing so well.
The numbers could be played however as far as graduations are increasing; well population is increasing so naturally graduations are going to increase.
I mentioned last week the dropout rate. I think it’s atrocious.
It’s saddening to see 75 percent of the people that enter into the school system drop out.
I think the onus is on us as an Assembly and then the department to try and figure out why that’s happening and address it because as long as we try to ignore those serious issues the problem is always going to be there.
It won’t go away and we’ll still have a 75 percent dropout rate. To me, that’s a pathetic number.
There’s something seriously wrong with the system when you have such a high dropout rate. There is somewhere in there that’s something that is not right. There’s no reason for that many young people to fall through the cracks.
So what if we look at something and say, “Well, it’s not perfect, this could be improved.” There’s nothing wrong with that.
The system that we have has been inherited from the Northwest Territories and prior to that, it probably came from somewhere else too.
I think we have an opportunity now, with the Education Act being developed, to seriously take a look at these issues and try and put into place measures to prevent that from happening.
When you look at it in the Northwest Territories, I think one good example they did and I would love to see it come forward in the legislation here, was legislating class size; the pupil/teacher ratios in there with appropriate funding to go along to meet the infrastructure requirements to go along with that over a phased in period of time.
Again, the wizardry of playing with numbers can come into play where the entire pupil/teacher ratio is not too bad, overall, if you look at it. In some cases, it is. And in some streams, whether it be one stream or another, it could have a very low pupil/teacher ratio. When you put that into the mix of the areas where it is extreme, it doesn’t look so bad.
Let’s quit trying to make it look like something that looks good, but isn’t. Let’s fix it. I think our kids and our young people that are going to be our future deserve that opportunity of us to be able to take an honest look at ourselves and try and address some of those situations, instead of trying to cover them up, or ignore them, or pretend they’re not there.
As it is right now, and I’ve had people say it to me over and over again, the way that our system is set up is setting kids up for failure. It’s difficult to sit there and listen to them. What can you say about it?
You can’t say anything. I think we have to look at how we create and set up a system that will set up our young people to succeed, and not just be limited to being recognized for their education in Nunavut, for the north.
As some of my other colleagues think it, I think the levels should be the same here as they are in any other jurisdiction in the country. We don’t need to worry about dumbing down courses and things like that. Things like social promotion don’t exist, but happen every day, every year in the schools.
Those kinds of things, when you ask about it: oh, no, no, it doesn’t happen, that doesn’t happen, but you see it happening time and time again.
Again, face the challenges head-on. Nothing is perfect unless you are willing to acknowledge that there are issues here that need to be addressed and they are never going to go away. Six years into this territory’s existence, the way I look at it, we can’t afford not to address and fix some of these issues.
With the Education Act, hopefully we’ll see the government follow through on its commitment when it sought support to dissolve the Divisional Boards of Education and empowering local DEAs.
The last attempt at legislation pretty much stripped away everything into the department. We have to put a stop to stuff like that. If the Department of Education wants the support of the people in the community, they have to follow through on the commitments that it made.
I’m going to look forward to making sure that that happens. I think that was one of the biggest flaws in the last attempt with the Education Act. These things need to change.
I don’t think investments in education are a cost; to me it’s an investment in the future. It may cost us more to put that money in place, and set up a system now, but down the road, it’s going to save us money, and then we will see students graduate all over the territory with a grade 12 equivalency; a real grade 12.
We have been doing consultations on the college and I had one parent tell me, “It’s like a pretend curriculum.” That is a quote that I heard from someone in the community saying that what our kids get taught; it’s a pretend curriculum. They graduate, but they still don’t have what they need to continue on.
Those are serious issues we need to have a serious look at and address them.
I have some other questions and I can go on talking about education forever Mr. Chairman, but I only have 15 seconds left now and I will leave the rest of the questions to when we go through on page-by-page for my good friend the Minister of Education and officials. I would also take this opportunity to welcome them to the Committee of the Whole.
You were really good with the clock today.
Mr. Barnabas (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Chairman. I would like to welcome the minister and his officials.
I, too, have a concern, especially for the smaller communities. The graduates of grade 12 are not going anywhere. For example, the graduates of grade 12, the only jobs they can get in the smaller communities are as a stock-boy.
It is not very good to see that occurring, especially when you see grade 12 graduates and they end up being the recipients of income support.
There is no goal for them and sometimes the Justice Department has to assist them through the courts. I do not know how the system is working.
It seems like the young graduates do not want to work. Those who had graduated from grade 12, they seem to just become recipients of income support programs.
They could be provided some money for some groceries and some clothing, and this is not an incentive to get them into the workforce, especially in the education system in the small communities and also, we consider how we can provide support and assistance to our students.
One thing that I have been thinking, since it is going to be a scientific year this upcoming year, the scientists will be going up to the High Arctic. They do a lot of scientific work in the High Arctic, especially in the summertime.
Also, they do a lot of scientific work in Alert.
These should be used to teach the adjacent communities, especially in the higher-grade level students.
Why do we not use all the things that are available? The Department of Education is not even using all those available facilities that could be used for training our students. These already-existing facilities could be used for training purposes.
Perhaps the minister can make an agreement with the individuals from Alert. Also, NASA is now going up to the High Arctic and that is a good opportunity to have a training program, especially for the students are graduates of grade 12.
So with these things in mind, especially when we see our grade 12 graduates in the smaller communities not going anywhere, it is very painful and sad to see these graduates in the income support programs and there is no incentive for them.
The only time they get money is when they go for income support.
I believe there is room for improvement and also to rectify this.
Also, my colleague Mr. Tootoo’s comment in regard to the divisional boards, we really miss those divisional boards and the communities also really miss the divisional boards. When the divisional boards were running the education system, they were running the education system very well.
The district education authorities nowadays, I do not know how they make decisions, especially when there are students taking the Teacher Education Program and the teachers; I do not know how you review those.
I have no idea anymore and I believe that DEA has no authority to do that.
When this is the case, the department can just go beyond the District Education Authority even though the parents have consent about the District Education Authority.
For that reason, I am going to have some questions, Mr. Chairman, so I will conclude with that for now.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Barnabas (interpretation) and my colleagues. I have no more names on my list for general comments.
Are there any more names on my general comments?
(interpretation ends) We will move to page-by-page review of the departmental estimates starting with page G-5.
Under this Directorate, the division of the department, it indicates in the summary this is the area that develops the legislation and the development of legislation and policy. I am just wondering if this is the division in which the department has individuals working to develop a new made-in-Nunavut Education Act.
No, that would be under our policy shop. We actually have it under G-7 in our book.
Mr. Tootoo: I look forward to asking the minister questions on that page.
Is it under here in 2004-05? It was called a one-time contribution to District Education Authorities on an as needed basis to provide special needs funding for identified students.
I am just wondering, as a result of that one-time contribution, as we do not see it in there anymore, has that issue resolved itself with that funding and that District Education Authorities no longer need any more special needs funding for the students?
Minister Picco shed some light on that please.
The contribution that we made last year, and again, it was a very good year for the Department of Education and for education in Nunavut, we created over 80 new positions across the board. You’d have to go back almost 20 years to find the same amount of created jobs in Government of the Northwest Territories’ budget.
New positions were created for special needs at that time. In this budget, we did not have the same opportunities to deal with some of those issues. However, those needs, as the member has indicated, have continued to come forward through the department.
We tried to, within the existing budget framework, respond to those.
The member is correct again that those needs that we have seen are less than what we saw last year because we actually did put the new bodies and new positions in place.
According to the financial summary and their business plan, the PYs for this division have not changed and yet we see a drop of over $100,000 in salary and benefits.
I am just wondering if the minister could explain who is making $100,000 less than they did last year.
It is my understanding that the dollar values there are the dollar values for salaries, but not actual PYs. Sometimes the number of person years is applied; it does not match total number of salary dollars. So for example, if a salary dollar was based at $42,000, the PY might be $89,000.
So there would be a mis-congruence of the amount of monies that are available.
So I hope that that helps answer the question.
It does not mean that there are less people or more people; it means that there’s not a correlation between the salary dollars and the actual PY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Then I would assume that there are unfunded positions in that division. Is that what the minister is indicating? Thank you Mr. Chairman.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Tootoo. Mr. Picco.
Could the member just repeat that again please?
Mr. Tootoo, could you please repeat your question.
I just wondered if the minister is indicating that, based on the numbers that are not accurate, it is that they are actually unfunded positions within that division of that department.
Hopefully he heard me that time.
I am sure my colleagues...Minister Picco.
Within every government department, you have unfunded positions that are in place. They may be of a casual nature, they may be of a term nature, or they may be a contract.
I say term meaning, of course, a short-term contract.
New hires are based on actual salary dollars.
Is that accurate then that there are still seven PYs in that division?
Why a difference then if it was $955,000 last year that it is only $831,000 this year?
Just questioning the accuracy of the numbers; that is the only reason I am wondering.
The numbers are accurate; I am just trying to explain them to the member.
The reason for them is not really a mystery, there is nothing trying to be covert.
We have one deputy minister position, the deputy minister sitting next to me; that is one position. We have two ADMs that the member is familiar with; Mr. Geikie and Irene Tanayuk.
Irene is actually representing us right now in Yellowknife at the Ministers of Education meeting for Canada. We have the IQ coordinator, Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit specialist coordinator that is our fourth position, we have the two executive secretary positions; that is six, and we have the coordinator position for the Nunavut Promise to Children position.
So those are the seven positions.
Next we have Mr. Curley.
Mr. Curley: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was not wearing my receiver.
I have a question in respect to the directorate, particularly with respect to those objectives and standards.
I assume that it includes all schools for the current curriculum and all the other in-depth programs in that, is that what you mean all programs and services to the minister.
Could you, the minister or your staff, outline some examples of what exactly are the kinds of programs that the department recommends to standardize for all the schools in Nunavut so we have some ideas?
This is similar to what we see in the majority of the budgets in the departments across government.
In this section when we talk about programs, in this case, it’s not just the K to 12 schools, but income support programs, the Homeless Secretariat, as well as the K to 12 programs and colleges.
The directorate includes all the programs run by the department, as the member has indicated.
That includes being expeditious on issues surrounding the program. For example, if it was income support, a recommendation may come forward to the minister for an increase of seven or ten percent, or what have you.
On the K to 12 side, for example, on programs it might be the introduction of criterion standard testing, depending on what the issue is and the evaluation techniques that will be put in place by the department to facilitate that information going forward on an as-go basis to the minister.
I assume then that would be also overseeing all the development of the NTEP Program that you announced earlier today. I was curious because in your announcement, you said that recommendations would be implemented.
Curiosity really halted me because how can you implement a recommendation that is nowhere to be seen? It’s invisible; it hasn’t been proposed. Maybe you won’t agree with any recommendation that they are proposing.
Is that what you do; that you pre-approve recommendations that have yet to be made, or even individuals yet to be appointed; expert panels yet to be formed?
How can you rationalize that for us; that you are telling us to approve this particular item, contrary to what the Auditor General has been saying to us that if we are going to get the value for our money, should we not be seeing the value presented to us before we approve it?
I believe Mr. Curley and I are on a parallel universe. No, that’s not it.
That’s not at all what has occurred. In this case, and under the program director, information, no different than any other government department or minister and the member is familiar with that role, programs and services are delivered by the department and the recommendations come forward on a given basis.
On the NTEP Program review; there was a program review. There were recommendations within that NTEP review. What I have said is that I could take that NTEP review and use that, and we are on a different subject, of course, because it’s not right here; NTEP would be covered on another page.
In the NTEP case, specifically, take the NTEP report and start implementing some of the concerns raised within that report itself, but at the same time, look at opportunities to expand that program because when we look at the language of learning and the Bilingual Education Strategy that we have already tabled and made it a public document, the only way I’m going to get there is to be able to increase the number of Inuit that I have teaching in schools for grades seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, and 12, because right now, we don’t have any.
We need to be able to re-invigorate and revitalize the NTEP Program and attract more people to teach in it.
So I hope that helps clarify that part.
Just as a reminder for our listening audience and also the members, if we can keep our questions and responses to the point when possible, for clarity purposes.
That’s exactly what we were trying to do because it was not all clear today exactly how the proposed program is being announced.
If you listened to my questioning, the policy announcement has been made out of a particular program to invigorate the NTEP Program. I didn’t see that the Expert Panel is in place, it has yet to be appointed, assuming that they would be making recommendations as well. So that was my point of questioning.
I can try to be very technical as well.
My further question is; how important it is for the department, in terms of development of programs for Nunavummiut, more related to science programs, I assume that science is really a very important component with school programs and curricula. So my question to you is: global warming, for instance, is now part of the school curriculum, or is it sometimes taught in schools as it relates to part of the world here?
Just yesterday, I had a copy of a fantastic science book just put out by the Bilingual Education Society Group through the auspices of NTEP. So I would need to get a copy for the member. It’s really well done in Inuktitut and English and it looks like any standard book that you would see in any other jurisdiction in the country.
The quick answer to the member is correct, the answer is yes. There are three types of major sciences that are delivered in our school; we have physical science, which includes environmental sciences; the climate, the weather, and so on; we have biology, of course; and we have chemistry science.
Mr. Chairman, when we are looking at the graduation process for our students, they have to, in most cases, depending on what grade they are in, pass one of those sciences.
So the short answer to the member is correct, is yes, that under science in the school system in Nunavut, there is work being done on global warming and climate change because two of them are not the same, they are part and parcel of a problem that we are experiencing and they had to be taken into that context, global warming and climate change, and that’s why we use those two definitions; they are variations of the same thing.
You are not far off on the Deputy Speaker, but serving as the Chairperson at this time, but Mr. Curley go ahead.
I appreciate the minister briefing us on that area.
I also have a question to the minister with respect to the objectives or standards with respect to the school program.
At what grade is history, if any, part of the school program?
Is there such a thing or are you satisfied that we have a concrete sort of a history program that is being taught to our students in Nunavut, either Canadian history, for all that matter, including the early contacts with Europeans into this part of the world?
Not to get too technical because we are on the area of the budget because of the minutiae of the detail, but the different context of history depends on the different type of subject of history that we are doing.