EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
At the time, there was an out cry from the business community and the general population as a whole, on what type of level of service we were going to receive.
I know that at this point the government has to be very watchful of how it spends its dollars.
Up until today, we were only getting one side of the story on the cost of fuel.
In the minister’s statements, he explained that he saved $19 million dollars by going this route.
I commend the minister.
I think that shows real good leadership and fiscal responsibility on his department and I can commend him for that.
It’s very difficult as a politician myself, to criticize that sort of deal that the government got on behalf of the government by saving 19 or 20 million dollars by using Shell and now the contract seems to be awarded to Woodward for the hauling of it.
We received very good service from NTCL in the Kivalliq.
At this point, there’s a lot of uncertainty.
Like I say, just hearing from one side; NTCL about 75 million dollars in business, 420 employees.
What’s going to happen next?
Are they going to pull completely out of the Kivalliq, which would be a disaster for us because when you have that type of service and have been dealing with them for 25 or 26 years in that region and you’ve built up your customer base, as business people and as government people, with the Manitoba Government, and I think we do possibly a couple hundred million a year, with the Manitoba Government in goods and services and now that supply seems like it’s going to be cut right off.
It’s going to place a great deal of discomfort on the business community there and I think the local population that are used to dealing with Manitoba and have set established suppliers and business affiliates and stuff like that.
It’s not going to be cut right off because you still have the air transportation links and that’s still going to continue.
But on the dry cargo, which is your sea lift orders, your lumber orders and stuff like that.
And I’m not saying that Churchill is better than Montreal.
I’m certainly aware that Montreal supplies all the Baffin area and even your hometown; I think it’s done by Nunavut Transport.
But the point I’m getting to here is there’s a lot of uncertainty right now in the Kivalliq on how people are going to get their goods there.
I’m sure you guys have a plan on doing this and like I say, I got to commend you for saving money for the government and as much as NTCL is an Inuit owned company and we all supported it for years, and we think highly of them and they give us exceptional services.
There’s still some unanswered questions, so I hope you bare with me today when I get into my line of question because I’m, at this point, I don’t think that the residents, and I’m not speaking for every community in the Kivalliq, but I don’t think that the residents of the Kivalliq are aware of what’s happening.
If you remember, I asked you in Pangnirtung, before you made your decision, would you advise the mayors and some of the business community, the Chamber of Commerce and stuff of what’s happening.
Because I just come in the door there and I heard the mayor of Arviat wasn’t aware of what’s happening with this fuel delivery and the transportation.
With your Minister’s Statement today, I think everybody in the Kivalliq is going to suddenly realize the ramifications of what’s happened to use there, whether it’s good, bad or indifferent.
But on every decision there is a transitional plan and I’m hoping that your department has a transitional plan.
It’s just not going to throw their hands up and say well you know, people are on their own now and they have to figure out how to do their own ordering, and how to set up their suppliers and how to do this and how to do that.
Because it could seriously jeopardise, you know, business opportunities, tendering processes and stuff like that.
The other thing is that, NTCL was the first one out of the gates when it comes to delivering.
A lot of communities like Arviat, had barges in around the last week of June, the first of July.
Baker Lake had a barge in as soon as the ice went out.
You know, Rankin Inlet had four or five barges.
A lot of people were used to that level of service where they could get stuff in early if it was a construction period.
They could get their houses up earlier and stuff like that.
Now, there’s uncertainty if we don’t get like a ship in with our cargo, our lumber or our building supplies in October, then we’ve lost the building season and that’s going to impact the government also.
It’s going to, on a construction level, impact our capital plans because projects are going to get delayed and there’s going to be carry-overs and there’s going to be appropriations and things like that.
But I’m sure that your department has thought this all out on this.
And that the cost savings that were involved in maybe the shipping, are going to be off-set by what I just talked about in regards to construction season.
Because contractors, when they realize, if they realize, they don’t get a ship until October or mid September or August, that’s going to delay the best part of the year when you don’t have July and August.
I don’t know, maybe the ships are going to be in earlier.
I know in my home community of Baker Lake, it’s going to be very, very difficult to get a ship in there.
You get a small ship in there, so that’s why I’m making an issue of this.
If the barge system pulls out of the Kivalliq, and it doesn’t directly say that in NTCL’s statement, then, a ship that goes into Rankin Inlet, Arviat, Repulse, Coral, will not be able to go into Baker Lake.
So we might be paying a dollar a pound from Montreal because of the special circumstance, which to me is not fair.
And like I say, later on, I’ll get into the questions on that.
That’s all I’ have to say in my opening comments.
I’m not really sure about how they deal with tankers in the Kivalliq Region, at what times, and what not, but in the Baffin region, we have no choice but to have our goods delivered by ship.
I would like to say that in the communities that I represent last year, there was a barge that came in with, the supply ship that came in but the supply, or the petroleum product was not enough for the community.
And in Clyde River, we feel that the petroleum products that are going to be delivered will not be enough for the whole year.
It seems like, according to the Ministers’ Statement, the GN has saved over $19 million but if there’s going to be problem in any of the communities, perhaps the $19 million that will be saved over three years might be used up with the problems that are not foreseeable at this time that might come up.
Yes, I realize that the government is saving that amount of money in the three years, but if there’s going to be any problems that we’re not foreseeing that might use up that amount of money that was going to be saved.
But there might be a lot of problems that are encountered by the communities, any communities in Nunavut regions and for the communities, if this problem comes up, then there has to be something done about it.
Like I said in Pangnirtung, that the petroleum was not enough and we feel that we are not going to have enough for the whole year in Clyde River because they filled up too much in Pangnirtung.
And also, regarding aviation fuel that we were run out of, we’ll probably, because we use various kinds of aircraft now that come to our community and they have to have enough aviation fuel we’ll probably run out.
That $1 million extra cost that the GN would be spending over the next 3 years compared to 2002, and looking at the savings of $19 million, I am sure we can put that money to good use, the $19 million.
If there are going to be problems that in the future, then we might just have to use that $19 million perhaps for Kugaaruk because of the resupply ships encountering problems and not being able to get to the some communities.
And in regards to Mr. McLean’s comment about Baker Lake, there’s problems getting into that community.
It seems like there are two problems that they have encountered and I just want to make sure that the people, the community of Baker Lake gets the same service as they did in the previous years.
Here in the north, we have harsh weather and it could be the part of the problem with of the resupply ships.
Yes, I’m very happy that the minister stated that they will be saving over $19 million dollars in the next three years and I appreciate that but during question period, I’ll be asking questions to the minister.
Very briefly, Mr. McLean outlined all the issues that I wanted to cover which is in regards to the concerns of the Kivalliq area.
In the Kivalliq region, we have very shallow water and just about every Baffin community has shallow water excluding Repulse Bay.
I don’t even know exactly how big the ship is going to be, that’s going to be going en route from Montreal to the Kivalliq Region.
So this is one area that should be seriously considered by the Woodward Doyle Limited if they’re going to be bringing ships up to the Kivalliq area.
Baker Lake is going to need a very small ship.
It says here the Government of Nunavut will save over $19 million dollars.
Woodward will come in, during the summer to Nunavut and after that season, they will probably go over seas or to other parts of the country to ship oil.
That’s what keeps them afloat year round.
But NTCL almost exclusively ships oil and other products to Nunavut only during the summer season.
After the summer season, they don’t do any shipping to any part of the world.
We can’t tell whether NTCL will be able to carry on their business just living on lumber and dry goods distribution.
They will have to lay off a lot of employees at the administrative level and they I believe they have approximately 400 employees from Nunavut.
They pay taxes in Nunavut.
I’m sure there’s going to be questions a little later but with those businesses that have offices outside of Nunavut, they don’t pay taxes to the Government of Nunavut.
How many millions of dollars are we going to lose by way of taxes?
Is $19 million dollars going to compensate for it?
We have to look at what the loss of the government is going to be versus the savings.
There’s another factor in here.
If NTCL should stop shipping in the Kivalliq and if they think that it’s not worthwhile to ship just dry goods and lumber and if they decide to declare bankruptcy or close their business, then the Kivalliq area will have to get their ships from Montreal.
If it comes in October, there are a lot of small businesses in the Kivalliq area; we’re a very industrious region.
It’s a little different that the Kivalliq region.
There are a lot of privately owned Inuit businesses in the Baffin, but in the Keewatin we have a lot of small businesses.
If we want to open a coffee shop, for example, and if we have to get supplies from Montreal and it does not come until October, then they will not be able to construct their buildings, and if they cannot do that then they lose a year of income.
Usually, what happens with NTCL is that the shipping starts in July and we start the construction and so on for the summer.
It is going to create a lot of problems for the small businesses if we get the ships from Montreal because they arrive very late in the season.
Lastly, Mr. Speaker, the Keewatin people will have to be kept up-to-date on what is happening with the barge from Churchill.
They will have to be kept informed and keep NTCL in mind.
We have Mr. Puqiqnak.
Mr. Puqiqnak (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.
I have a brief comment to make in regards to the fuel transportation contract.
I would like to say that I support the Keewatin representatives and their concerns.
Of course the Kitikmeot is impacted.
It is not only the Kitikmeot area; it is the whole of Nunavut.
NTCL is Inuit owned.
And in the Kitikmeot area, we saw through News North that we will no longer be serviced by NTCL.
This contract was awarded to Woodward’s Oil Limited.
And the Minister was pleased to update the Members on the newly filled transportation contract for Nunavut, because of course, there are savings of over $19 million dollars.
I agree with the Minister.
I am also pleased to hear that there will be savings of over $19 million dollars.
Because we have Woodward’s Oil Limited who will be providing the services.
Thank you very much, but in the Kitikmeot communities when we heard this news release through the media, the Kitikmeot is automatically impacted by this news.
I don’t think that it is only the Kitikmeot or the Keewatin; it is the whole of Nunavut.
It seems like what we had, or if I use myself as an example, it seems like some of the assets that I have, like a snowmobile or qamutik, has been taken away and it is something that was providing for us, something that was essential for the survival of the family.
I could use that same example when we’re talking about awarding a contract to a southern firm, instead of a northern firm, Inuit owned firm, where the survival tool that we had is now taken away.
NTCL has been providing transportation services for a long time in our region and that we, with the members of Nanulik, it is now questionable whether NTCL will be able to survive the losing of this contract and if they’re going to survive the addition of the distribution of fuel.
If we look at this $19 million savings, it’s very pleasing, but some of my colleagues said that there is a danger in it and I think that we have to very seriously consider this is we award contracts to new companies.
We know what NTCL’s like, they know the currents, the oceans, and the shallowness of those areas, they know the communities.
And if we are going to have a new company providing those services, it’s something that’s not tried.
What if we’re losing a reliable, consistent company?
I can say that I’m very pleased with the $19 million saving, but there’s a but in there.
And I think that we have to reconsider this issue because there’s a heavy impact in the Kitikmeot and Nunavut-wide.
When I was coming here from the Kitikmeot area, there were some concerns that were voiced already.
My constituents phoned me at home to voice their concerns.
I too am pleased there’s some savings in here for the government.
I know that this is over and done with, but it’s going to cause a problem to the government and to the residence of these regions.
If we try to buy cheap fuel we have to make sure that it’s good quality gas and good quality service.
Sometimes if you don’t watch what you’re doing, problems arise.
In the Kitikmeot area, we have to know what kind of services or transportation services are going to be provided in that region?
No other names on the list.
We will now open the floor for questions.
I’m hoping the deciding factor in awarding the fuel transportation contract for the Baffin and the Kivalliq, to Woodward Doyle limited wasn’t a political decision to punish NTCL for the bad gas situation.
I’m hoping that was not it.
I know your Minister’s Statement said $19 million dollars over three years.
Why was this company, Woodard’s proposal the best and like I say, was cost a factor.
This wasn’t a political decision?
It had nothing to do with the bad gasoline issue.
Woodward Limited was awarded the contract because it was the lowest bidder.
It had nothing to do with the bad gasoline.
Was Woodward’s proposal the best of the group?
Hon. Peter Kattuk: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.
Yes, Mr. Chairperson.
In the past NTCL shipped both fuel and dry cargo aboard the same ship out of the port at Churchill.
How will the government’s decision on splitting the contract up, affect the cost of dry cargo into the Kivalliq Region?
This was mentioned in the general comments.
In regards to the shipment of fuel and dry cargo on the same ship, we, the government, want the best for the people of Nunavut.
In the past, NTCL shipped both the dry cargo and fuel on the same ship.
I think it would be safer if they were separate.
But in the New Year we’re going to be asking for bids on a contract to ship dry cargo.
If NTCL is true to their word, pull their barge system out of the Kivalliq, can you reassure, if they pull out, then we’re missing our main shipper in the region, for dry cargo and fuel, can you reassure the people in the Kivalliq, if NTCL pulls out, that they’re going to be able to receive their cargo?
And I’m talking about the whole Kivalliq, a competitive rate into the community and it’s possible to guarantee that the rates will not increase because we lose NTCL on dry cargo?
From what we know, the contract and transportation services will not increase because of this decision.
There is even a possibility that there might be a decrease in the prices.
Today we know that there’s not going to be an increase in the prices.
Any more Mr. McLean.
That’s reassuring to know that so I can tell my constituents that there’s not going to be an increase in the dry cargo rates.
You know, to split the contract up I know the government decided to split the contract up for the transportation and for the supply.
And it looks like we have a significant cost saving.
The company that’s going to haul the fuel into the region now, do you think or do you suspect that they will bid on the dry cargo also?
I’ll have Mr. Mrazek to respond to that question.
Mr. Mrazek: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.
We don’t exactly know who and what companies will be responding to our tender.
But we’re expecting that there will be, from our dealings with the different people at this time, we know that the number of the shipping companies and one of the major Inuit companies will definitely respond to the tender for the dry cargo.
That’s reassuring to know.
Will that be FOB Churchill or Montreal or both?
Our options in the tender will cover both places.
That’s reassuring.
I’m hoping it’ll go our way.
There is a question in regards to savings, cost savings, and you know I’ve asked this question in the house numerous times from the Finance Minister about corporate income taxes.
And for some reason, I guess because he has to, he can’t show it to us.
Who pays for corporate taxes in Nunavut and how much, because it’s a great interest to me.
Everybody knows how much the MLA’s pay in taxes.
It’s in the newspaper every year.
You know and to me you know if you want to be an open and transparent government I think everybody should see what everybody’s paying in income taxes.
But, which is my little plug here.
And I think it’s good that the media has access to our stuff.
I wouldn’t want it any other way.
But when you award a contract to a company like Woodwork Oil and don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to say the wrong word here.
In another jurisdiction in Canada or another province, their corporate taxes are paid in that jurisdiction.
And I’m not sure but I think NTCL may have paid incomes taxes, personal and corporate.
Those are savings in your opinion.
And I know Kelvin is sitting there thinking.
But do you think that by NTCL by creating employment of northerners, Inuit and things like that, that the cost savings on the contract outweigh these other benefits that NTCL provides?
I don’t know if I can respond to that question, but the minister of finance might be able to respond to that question.
To date, I don’t know what kind of corporate taxes NTCL pays, so therefore I really can’t respond to your question, but we will have more cost savings now, but I don’t know what NTCL’s level of corporate taxes are.
Minister Ng, are you going to respond.
Mr. Chairperson, in respect to who pays taxes and how much they pay, there’s issues around protection of privacy.
I can say that, for the instance of NTCL, I think everyone is aware that their head office is in Hay River.
And I’ll just leave it at that Mr. Chairperson.
That answers the question clearly for me.
It’s unfortunate, it’s an Inuit owned company.
The last is more a statement. It’s not a question.
I didn’t really want to say it today, but this is a new territory and we do take certain criticisms on certain issues on the waste in money and very seldom do we get praised for saving money as a government.
We have a housing shortage.
We have the highest rates of unemployment.
We have the highest of this, the highest of that.
And the government has to act in good faith in saving money for the residents of Nunavut.
And like I say, I praise you for that, but the over, the circumstances here, and I’m not saying that they should be subsidized, but a corporation like NTCL has provided services. And I’m not trying to make you feel guilty by no means. But a company like that, that is owned by beneficiaries, through investment arms and stuff like that, if this does lead to this company shutting down, then the finger is going to be pointed to this government for not supporting it.
As politicians, we have to put taxpayers’ money in the forefront.
What I’m saying here is that if the consequences of this contract, lead to the closing down of NTCL, then we’re a little guilty because it is an Inuit owned firm.
And it goes on a bit further, as a govt.
We’ve got to be careful with our airlines because that’s the next major decision that has to be made on the airlines.
Do we award contracts with airlines based on low bids and another comes out of the system, if we close one down.
So, what I’m getting to here if we knock a competitor out of the business, that’s not competitive, and then the level of service and the competition might not be there down the road to help.
And what I’m saying here is if we knock out an airline and we knock out a transportation company that’s Inuit owned, then the consequences, of course you can operate out of Newfound Land or Montreal cheaper, but on the end of the day, if you knock two corporations that are Inuit owned, out of the game all together.
And I’m say, I’m being a little two faced here, but down the road, will this come to haunt us?
You know, the human cost, sometimes, has to be looked at.
And I’m not going to press this much further but, like I’m saying. Decisions that we make today are going to impact us down the road a few years from now.
That’s just what I’m saying, this could cripple and put this company out of business and I certainly don’t feel good about that because less competition in Nunavut is bad for all of us, whether it’s the airline industry or the transportation industry.
So you’re in a difficult situation there. I just don’t know.
I’m just giving you my comments.
I don’t need an answer.
That was a good comment and very clear.
I will ask more questions than comments.
Perhaps putting it this way, if NTCL will not be transporting fuel in the Keewatin region, and if they are not going to be transporting dry goods, how many employees who are residing in the Keewatin and who are Inuit would be lost?
Chairperson (interpretation): Who is going to respond?
In regards to your question as to how many employees who would lose their jobs at NTCL in the Keewatin region.
I cannot respond to that so I apologize, Mr. Chairperson.
Perhaps once you find out the figure, could you write us a letter or table it in the House.
If NTCL were going to lay off people I agree with your suggestion, but if they don’t release the information, I will not be able to get it.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): Yes, if there were many Inuit people employed at the Inuit company, at NTCL, it would be kind of dangerous.
Like we have many GN staff and at times we don’t know what position does.
If we want to construct a unit or school close to 30% of the budget goes to the Government.
How much money did we actually lose rather than saving?
This is an Inuit owned company.
It is just a company.
We don’t seem to be overly concerned as to how many jobs will be lost in the Keewatin region.
Even the Minister does not know how many jobs will be lost if NTCL stops transporting.
During your request for proposals, I am sure that Woodward’s Oil, I am sure in their bid, they stated their qualifications.
To use this as an example, through the Qamanittuaq River; if they will be able to go in through that river to Qamanittuaq.
Perhaps, Mr. Chairperson if I could ask what kind of ship, or small ships will they be using?
I will have my Deputy respond to that question.
During the negotiations, or final negotiations, with the contractor, in this case Woodward’s, Woodward’s will be using several ships.