EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
That’s why we say to introduce this Act, like any legislation, usually there’s a price tag attached to any new legislation. In this case, we estimate, directly to the Department of Education, about $14 million.
My question then to you is: why does the current Education Act prevent you from providing a bilingual language of instruction to schools in Nunavut at the moment?
Hon. Ed. Picco: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The current Education Act that we’re using in Nunavut goes back to 1996. It was passed in the Government of the Northwest Territories and refers to Dene, Slavey, Dogrib, and other things that are western oriented in the Northwest Territories.
It does, however, provide a framework for bilingual education.
As we said earlier, we actually have brought forward a Bilingual Education Strategy and we’re doing our language of instruction right now, but to continue it and actually put that process in place to the degree that the new Education Act outlines and discusses, there’s extra costs to that with extra PYs at the high school level and so on and so forth. And that Act gives us the legislative authority, which you need, of course, to spend money to be able to demonstrate and bring that amount forward.
Why does the current Education Act prevent you from bringing forward extra PYs to continue and improve upon the Bilingual Education program?
Hon. Ed. Picco: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What Mr. Curley is stating is that this is just one small part of that Bilingual Education Strategy that we talked about, and it’s a small component again of the Education Act.
When we look at the Education Act, we’re talking about the education in Nunavut; K-12, preschool, early learning, adult learning, and so on and so forth.
So we have introduced a Bilingual Education Strategy but that strategy starts talking about: how do you bring forward an X number of PYs, and so on and so forth.
The way we have been developing a new legislation is tied up with Bill 21; it’s intertwined.
Mr. Chairman, it confuses me because on one hand, you say you’re carrying on the NTEP program, for instance, and you’re trying to bring in more bilingual teachers, and so on, but at the same time, you’re saying that you can’t do all that unless you have $14 million.
I don’t believe there’s anything in the Act that says you couldn’t increase it by $14 million to reinvigorate it now and not have to wait another ten months down the road until you establish the regulations, for instance, with any new Act.
So why is it so complicated?
The legislation that we’re talking about is a large piece of legislation that touches different areas of education in Nunavut. What it proposes to do, for the first time ever, is to deal specifically with Nunavut issues in the Nunavut Act, and I think the member would agree with that; it’s not being made in Yellowknife and it hasn’t gone to Inuvik for their input.
We have held over 100 consultations across Nunavut and we have only heard one person in 100 meetings say, for example, “Bring back the education board.” That’s documented and that’s there on the record.
What this Education Act does is actually enhance and put more resources in several areas of school operations from K-12; it talks about the bilingual education system, it talks about the Adult Learning Strategy, it talks about local control, and it talks about trying to put kindergarten to grade 12 in Inuktitut, and so on; it talks about the invigoration of the NTEP program. Can all of this occur under the current 1996 GNWT Act?
No, it cannot. Can we take $14 million and put it into the Department of Education and say, “Give us a strategy and do these things”? Well, we could probably do that, but would the members, or the House, or the public feel comfortable in doing that?
This new Act says, for the first time ever, that we will have a PTR, people-teacher ratio, better than the national average and that’s going to cost money. It’s something that the members in the House have talked about doing.
This new Education Act is talking about, for example, taking elders and weighting their experience the same as an academic weighting of a Doctorate or a Bachelor’s Degree; that’s going to cost new money.
So all of those things cost money; you can’t do those through policy changes.
You need to do those through legislation and that’s why the extra costs.
Hopefully that helps clarify for the member the issue.
Chairman (Mr. Evyagotailak): Thank you, Minister Picco.
I think the minister should pursue that but I’m not asking for the benefit of myself. If the education is any important; that’s not my role. My role is to make sure you know at least to differentiate between why you’re so handicapped now that you can’t do a thing to improve education with the current bill.
I think it’s a little too far stretching to some and the minister really should be fair because I believe that Nunavummiut do want education and they have taken advantage of this current system.
So having said that, I want to ask another question; it has to do with the way in which the Inuktitut teaching also includes culture.
I believe that even with the current legislation, my constituents tell me that eventually, they would like to see, whether or not that would help, a cultural school in their own communities so that they have an opportunity to teach culture and be more effective in teaching culture at just a standalone Inuktitut school.
Would that be possible in any way, shape, or form either with the current Act or would you have to have a new Act to consider that possibility?
Under the new Act, the Act outlines that our Nunavut culture, the Inuit culture, provides the basic building blocks of all of our schools.
What Mr. Curley is saying, and I like the angle that he’s taking on it because he’s suggesting, I believe, that a school doesn’t have to be brick and mortar; it could be a transcendental thing, it could be outside of that box.
For example, in the community of Rankin Inlet, if the DEA says, “Look, we’re going to set up a cultural school in area six outside of the community and that school is going to have a tent in the summertime or maybe it will have an Illuvigaq in the winter, and we’re going to do cultural programs.”
That can be accomplished within the scope and framework of this new Education Act.
For the first time ever, in North America, we’re legislating a language in a school other than English or French: an aboriginal language.
I think, eventually, all this will be debated once the bill is formerly back in.
My point is that some of the elders are legitimately saying to us, as MLAs, “Whose role is it to teach Inuit culture and language?
Should it be part of the curriculum or should it be separate?”
I think the reason, in my view, that it’s happening is because the goal of education is somewhat confusing, I believe, in Nunavut.
In order to help them out, does the minister have any plans to promote the meaning of education to households, instead of just children that attend school, I believe, from K-12 and beyond?
Chairman (Mr. Barnabas)(interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Curley.
We agree with Mr. Curley that better communication of education in Nunavut should occur and that’s one of the things we have talked about in the Act itself.
We’re continuing to do phone-in shows and being able to go at the community level to explain the different multiple options that are going to be presented in the Act.
These are very exciting times for education in Nunavut; being able to see a real change at the school level, that fundamental shift that we have talked about.
I just got an email and I’m going to ask the principal if he will table it, and the principal is talking about, in one of the smallest communities in Nunavut, Mr. Chairman, for the first time, how they’ve got six graduates who passed the Alberta exam in one of the smallest communities in Nunavut and how the Nunavut curriculum, since 2004, has reinvigorated the school system.
I just received that email this morning, so I would like to be able to share that with the members, but that principal is talking about what Mr. Curley is saying about the change and the fundamental shift that we have seen in the last couple of years and will continue with this new Education Act.
I appreciate that and that will be interesting to read.
Mr. Chairman, my next question also ties in with the ‘Stay in School’ kind of message program.
I alluded to it the other day but I wasn’t fully satisfied whether or not we’re getting any inroads or getting the message to parents. I believe, in my view, it is the parents that we need to convince more than the students.
I used an example the other day when I was challenged by my dad when I was a very young boy, he said, “It’s going to be very crucial and important for you to learn and speak Qallunaatitut some day in the future.”
He didn’t have any piece of document that said, “Stay in school. Go to school,” or that thing, but he sent a message and it remained with me.
I believe it’s important that that message, ‘Stay in School’ message, and the importance of going to school... if we can’t explain properly what education means, but the importance of staying in school is so crucial right now that parents have to take it seriously.
I believe that if the minister shares that view, he should commit to providing a message to homes and deal with the parents.
And, it’s not just a DEA matter; I believe it’s a ministerial responsibility in some respects that he should establish a program for adults to continue to encourage their children to stay in school.
Yes, it is possible and there’s some work ongoing right now, as the members know, with mature graduation and keeping more of our students in school.
I think the member has hit the nail right on the head that with our children in school, we only have five hours a day, five days a week; 25 hours a week where most of our students would be in an academic setting in school.
The rest of the time, they’re at home, or at a playground, or so on. One of the big issues that we see with drop-outs when we talked to the students was the socio-economic conditions that they find at home.
And, what Mr. Curley’s father said to him many years ago is true today as it was true then and that’s the importance of having a high school graduation and graduating from high school. We’re seeing technology and everything changing, so we need to work with parents, work with the local education authority and with the government to try to help our children stay in school and that’s a partnership and that starts, as Mr. Curley has indicated, right from the family.
So we’re in concurrence and in agreement with him.
I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman, because I think, for many of us who are parents or whatnot in the community, to continue to blame kids for not attaining their educational needs is really not the answer. I believe that we have such a conflicting situation that is happening in schools that many of them are beyond the children or the school age people; there are so many.
For instance, kids don’t go to bed when they should be in bed; they play and many of them will now be playing all night/all day and not have to worry about going to school the next day, and some parents are more permissible to other kids as well. So we need that program specially designed to parents because sometimes we overlook our responsibility as parents and we feel that it’s only the kids that don’t really like to go to school. Some kids are more preferred by some parents, and therefore, if they say, for instance, they’re not feeling all that well, “Okay, stay home,” or that kind of stuff.
So I think you have a very challenging issue here and you need to address it. Would you be prepared to keep us up to date on that area of responsibility?
Yes, Mr. Chairman, I agree with Mr. Curley.
I think that, especially coming up in the springtime, as Mr. Curley indicated, we want to stay out all the time, a lot of our kids are out longer hours and when they come home, they’re tired.
You have Xbox, Nintendos, and computers at home, and the kids are MSN Messaging, you’ve got 50 channels on your cable television now everywhere in Nunavut; there’s so much for kids to do and we’re finding that, especially in the mornings, you will see attendance drop off; sometimes you are at the point where you’re at 20 and 30 percent attendance.
So that’s part of the home thing where you’ve got to help the children get up in the mornings and get to school.
As I have said earlier and I have said many times, when we see the attendance of our students at 80 percent, they attend 80 of the time, Mr. Chairman, they’re actually passing grade 11 and grade 12 at the high school, they’re passing the Alberta exams, just like we said today with that small community where their principal contacted us.
So that’s something that we’re going to continue to work on, not only with the department and government but we need to get that message through the House, like today, that the partnership between families, the DEA, and the school is so important that all of our children be successful.
I think you would be supported by quite a lot of parents and students as well.
We were all young once and we didn’t like going to school every day. That was true with me.
I was geared up one time, I could give you an example, all geared up to go out hunting. I had my parka and everything but I was good at that: getting prepared for the day.
If he’s going out hunting, I’m going with him and he knew that.
Without a comment, he picked me up and took me to school, so I didn’t go hunting that day.
So I think we can learn from some examples like that and I encourage you to spread that message and we’ll back you up on that.
Mr. Chairman, that’s the end of my comment, thank you.
I just have a quick question.
I believe the school counsellors are included in there under School Operations. Are they all recognized as professionally trained school counsellors?
Good point, Mr. Chairman.
What we try to do with our school counsellors is hire them locally because they know their community, they can speak the language, and they know the families, and that’s what a school community counsellor does is liaison between the school and the community counsellors. At the same time, we provide a lot of in-service professional development work with those counsellors so they can enhance their skills.
Is he saying then that they are not professionally trained?
Is the department prepared to train them so they will be professionally trained as counsellors?
The reason that I’m saying that is the students’ minds are still developing because they’re young, so they must be counselled on a case-by-case basis.
My question is: will they receive formal training so that they can get certified to work as school counsellors?
We agree with the member and that’s one of the things we’re working on is some of the certification for our staff who fall under that umbrella, like the school counsellor, like the FSA, and so on, and that work is ongoing.
Every time there’s professional development for school staff, the counsellors also take part in that. Before a school counsellor is hired, if they don’t have the academic requirement, because we’re looking at language skills and the community knowledge, and so on, we also look at their work experience. In many cases, Mr. Chairman, our school community counsellors have worked for several years in situations with children and have that background.
Moving on to a different subject, under Grants and Contributions, there’s $10 million.
Is this for the DEA and if so, is part of that used for school supplies?
In response to those questions on Friday, we explained, like in this case, we received the reduction of $444,000 that was specifically for the bussing contract here in Iqaluit. The school supplies, and so on, are funded through the auspices of the DEA offices.
Mr. Arvaluk: From this $10 million?
Minister Picco.  Hon. Ed. Picco: Thank you.
I didn’t quite catch that. Can the member ask his question again?
The minister said that the school supplies are supplied through the auspices of the DEA offices from the $10 million?
Hon. Ed. Picco: That’s correct.
Do we know how much of that is for DEAs; a portion of it?
I don’t think they get very much.
Under the Grants and Contributions, the total amount that we see there, as referred to by the member, goes to the DEA. So that’s inclusive.
I seemed to hear something else before that but now he’s saying that the total of that whole $10 million is given to DEAs.
Mr. Arvaluk: So each DEA gets approximately $500,000. Is that correct?
Hon. Ed. Picco: No, Mr. Chairman. It depends on the size of the DEA. An example would be Apex, which is a smaller community, would get a smaller amount.
I just have a quick question. My colleague was asking about drop-outs and how they’re dealing with that. I know our drop-out rate is exceptionally high, but I’m just wondering if the minister could give us an indication of what it is currently.
The member is correct; it is quite high. It has been improving over the last few years. Our graduations have gone from about 25 percent now to about 28.5 to 29 percent over the last three years.
So it has improved but it is still very high.
Was the minister saying, right now, that only 29 out of every 100 kids that enter into the school system finishes?
Is it correct; that the drop-out rate is between 70 and 75 percent?
There’s something wrong here: 70 to 75 percent of the kids going into the school system don’t finish. It is a pretty scary thought.
I believe, in southern jurisdictions, it’s probably reversed where they probably only have about a 25 to 30 percent drop-out rate.
I would assume that, with numbers as staggering as that, that’s something that the department would be looking at trying to address.
So I’m just wondering if the minister could give us an indication of what they have done in the last little bit and what they play on doing to try and address that issue.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Tootoo. (interpretation ends) Before I recognize Minister Picco, just to mention that I have used my discretion to allow you to ask questions as you asked questions on Friday on this page.
Again, we appreciate the member’s question.
When you keep looking at the situation with education in Nunavut, one of the things that the critics will point out, and rightfully so, the high drop-out rate in Nunavut. A lot of that has to do with what is occurring socio-economically at home and we haven’t really addressed that.
At the school level, if I can very quickly because I know we’re pressed for time, but very quickly, the education system within Nunavut, over the last three or four years, has put in a multiple graduation options in our classrooms. We’re looking at bringing forward more trades programs that we’re seeing at the high school level, the reintroduction of some theatre programs, music programs, and so on, again, to make more exciting programs in the school, and when we say programs, we mean courses and curriculum development, and so on, and make it more relevant to Nunavummiut.
But you could have the most exciting program in the school and it may not increase your graduation rate if you still cannot get the students to come because, as Mr. Curley was just saying earlier, when you have, especially at this time now going into the spring, more daylight, a lot of our communities, after April 1, there’s daylight all the time, kids are out walking around at night, attendance drops considerably, and so you see that type of thing happening where children aren’t going to school because of whatever their socio-economic condition is, because there’s overcrowding in the houses, and so on. That’s a factor.
In many of our schools years ago, you wouldn’t have thought you would have a breakfast program in your school, but today, we know that we have breakfast programs in almost every school across Nunavut.
All of these types of socio-economic factors also affect our students, but we do know, Mr. Chairman, that when our students are in school 80 percent of the time, they’re graduating.
So the program itself is not at issue; it’s why our students are not attending school and why their truancy rate is so high or their drop-out rate is so high. It’s a different group of issues; not just one issue. It can be, for example, pregnancy or socio-economic issues at home and those types of factors are outside the scope of the school itself.
What we’re seeing is that when the students are attending school and they’re there 80 percent of the time, they’re being successful, and that goes from the smallest community in Nunavut to the largest.
I would like to maybe suggest to the minister that they try and do a little bit more in that area. I looked through their priorities for 2008-09 and I didn’t see anything on trying to address the drop-out rate, although there is that section that the minister indicated there about multi-option programs, but if the kids aren’t there, that doesn’t do them any good.
My next question, Mr. Chairman is, also in the minister’s priorities for 2008-09, they talk about implementing changes to graduation requirements for Nunavut high schools.
I’m just wondering if he could give us an understanding of exactly what they’re looking at changing there.
We’re continuing with the Alberta curriculum at the high school level but we have been looking at Nunavutizing that curriculum.
Part of that multiple option that we have talked about is the introduction of some of the specific Nunavut programs.
For example, at the high school level, we have actually taken the Aulajaaqtut program and introduced that across different provinces and territories, and we have received certification from that program saying that the program meets the requirements of grade 10 and 11, as an example, as a program.
So that’s part of what we have been doing with the program itself.
We’re also looking at the senior secondary curriculum itself within the high school level across Nunavut. We have also developed Inuktitut and Aulajaaqtut with that again, and that’s shown at over 20 Canadian universities across Canada as recognized as an entrance requirement, meaning if you have completed that at the high school level, 20 Canadian universities will actually recognize that as grade 10 and 11, instead of just having to rely on what the GNWT used to do.
So that’s part of Nunavutizing the curriculum.
Part of the Multiple Options program that we’re putting in place is other programs that are outside of academics and that’s part of the Aulajaaqtut that we have talked about.
It also includes pre-trades and engineering, it includes the heritage and culture, and that’s Aulajaaqtut, and it includes family and community care, fine arts and crafts, IT, information technology.
At the high school level, more and more of our students are getting experience using the keyboard, computers, dealing with the bandwidth, and so on and so forth, as well as business experience and that’s through different programs like the Junior Achievement program that are run through the different chambers of commerce here in Nunavut.
As the minister indicated, they still use the Alberta curriculum. I think one thing that a lot of students that have graduated over the years are having a hard time with is they all think, “I have a Grade 12 Diploma,” but when they go to apply to post-secondary institutions in the south, they don’t have the required courses necessary to get enrolled or get into some of the programs in the south. I’m just wondering if the minister could give us an idea of how they look at addressing that as well.
At the high school level, for the last several years now, what we had to put in place is that, to graduate, the student needs at least 100 credits of secondary course work and that the 100 secondary credits, of course, would include the Alberta exam.
For example, if the student, depending on what program they were taking, if they passed grade 12 and they got their grade 12 graduation, depending on what program they’re applying for, they may not be able to get into a program because they might have taken English 30, for example, but university requires English 50. That happens not just in Nunavut; it happens across the country.