EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
So, I’d like to ask the Minister if he doesn’t have that information, if he could get it and then provide it to us because I think even if it doesn’t effect the decision that was made back then it’s going to be important information to have for any type of future increases that the corporation may be looking at requesting because it’s the home owners that its going to impact the most.
If you’re living in an apartment you don’t pay the same type of utilities, you don’t have the same usage as someone that owns a three bedroom house, and they live in there with a family.
So, think that that’s important to get a grasp on clarifying exactly you know what those numbers really mean and not just putting numbers out there because it looks good.
I’d like to ask the Minister if he could do that.
Mr. Chairman, I want to assure the Members and Mr. Tootoo that there is there is no way that the Finance Minister would allow me to put numbers just out there unless they were certified and honest numbers that could be accounted for.
He would rather carry on, carry forth, cash and carry, Mr. Chairman, before he would allow me to do that.
So, I hope that makes Mr. Tootoo feel a lot better knowing that.
Mr. Chairman, I want to point out a couple things first.
It doesn’t matter if you’re in an apartment, if you’re in a multiplex, if you’re in a duplex, or if you’re in a detached home, if you are in that home, whether it’s an apartment and you have a separate meter on it, it would be rated as domestic residential.
Therefore and thus, you get the same subsidy that Ed Picco would get in a single house or that Uriash would get in an apartment; everyone is in domestic residential.
Then you get that subsidy in that place.
When we said on the rider itself, what I was trying to point out was that the first 7 hundred kilowatt hours are subsidized right.
So, if you go over the 7 hundred kilowatt hour, that’s when the actual rider would have kicked in.
But I believe 80 percent of our customers actually on a regular basis out of a 12 month period, actually stay below this 7 hundred kilowatt hours receive their subsidy therefore and thus, the impact of the rider would not have been incongruent to the point that we had talked about in the beginning of that much.
That was the point I was trying to make, I believe on that issue.
I’m going to ask Mr. Hawker just to paraphrase and clarify that on the meter reading themselves, that if it is a commercial business they have a different rate and Mr. Hawker can tell you also Mr. Chairman, the different categories for the billings.
Mr. Chairman, the rates charged in Nunavut are fairly complicated in the communities specific and we’re just in the process of changing the billing system so have them known off by heart.
But, the community rates are broken down as commercial, commercial government, commercial non-government, domestic which is eligible for territorial support, domestic which is not eligible for territorial support, housing, the housing subsidy, and there are other ones, laying the street lights and miscellaneous residual heating, that sort of thing.
Each of these rates is community specific; in other words, the rate you pay today for domestic/residential would not be the same as the rate presently paid in Iqaluit, for example.
All of these rates are reviewed by the Auditor General every year, and their review was somewhat easier this year because they have not changed since last year.
And they have determined that we are charging the appropriate rate for each category for the last two years.
If that could be your last question as you are out of time.
Mr. Chairman, I think that the Minister kind of missed the point that I was trying to make, which is rare for him.
Mr. Chairman, I am not doubting the 80% of the private consumers use less than the subsidy.
How much of those private consumers are actual homeowners?
Because the consumption of a single, detached home, is much more consumption than you would have in an apartment or in a multiplex staff housing unit.
What I would like is to see a break out of that, because like I said the majority of the homeowners who live in homes, who pay their power bills use more than the 700kWh.
Overall that 80% may be an accurate number but it does not reflect the impact that it would have on the homeowners.
I think that that is an important thing.
These are people who have invested in a home in Nunavut, made it their home, bought a home is if something like this were to go through; they would be penalized the most for something like this.
I would say on average, they would have more consumption than you would have than someone living in an apartment, or a row house.
That is what I was asking the Minister if they could break out and see, for all of us that are homeowners, I would rather than someone who lives in the high rise, their power bill, they are lucky if it is fifty, or eighty dollars per month.
For homeowners it is more than likely a little more than that.
I think that before anything like this comes into place, the impact that it has on the people who are probably being subsidized the least in Nunavut, the homeowners that live here, and work for the Government, how it would affect them should be taken into consideration.
That is what I am asking, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister can look at.
I just had some words with Mr. Hawker and Mr. Flaherty, and we agree with the Member.
We are homeowners ourselves, and we pay the same bill.
What has occurred here in the last two years, is that if you are in an apartment, you will receive the same subsidy for domestic/residential as a person that is in a house.
That is the same format as standard that is in place across Canada for any Power Corporation.
However, we cannot track right now the difference between a tenant and an owner.
It is hard for me to say that I am renting an apartment.
What happens is if I move into a Co-op Housing tomorrow, I do not own Co-op Housing, for example, here in Iqaluit, there are three and four bedroom units.
I do not own them but I will be renting.
And the rate that I am charged will be the same amount, a domestic/residential, as Mr. Tootoo may be charged in his house, or that any other Member would be charged.
If I am living at the Northern Staff Housing, if I am in a Bay Staff House, the Bay will be charged if it is a residential unit, domestic residential for that unit.
The same rate would be charged if I was in a room that is across the street.
On the other units, for example, if it is owned or rented, we have no way of ascertaining that.
I believe right now, Mr. Chairman, just for example, the Government of Nunavut, we have 16, 000 customers … 11, 000 customers and we do not differentiate between rented or owned or if it is an apartment or whatever, the same way you do not differentiate anywhere else in the country.
It would be almost impossible logistically and administratively.
So, that is why, on the fairness factor that is put in there, there has to be auditors and regulators.
It is that it does not matter if you are in a rented accommodation and you are paying for domestic, because you live there, you will get the same subsidy as Ed Picco gets if he is in a house because he is still a residential domestic.
It would be very difficult to change it.
So, it helps to ask the question and that indeed the subsidy is put in there.
Our concern would be next year, Mr. Chairman, if the Government, if Mr. Tootoo will be here next year sitting in this House when the Government comes forward with the General Rate Application and all of the rates will have to be reviewed and that is still to come forward in the New Year.
Right now, our rates are based on 1998 rates and the subsidy is in place for the capital here in Iqaluit and so on are based on Yellowknife rates.
So, in less than twelve months, this Government or the Government that comes in, the Members in this House will have to decide, should Sanikiluaq still pay a rate based on the Yellowknife rate or should it be based on what the true cost of electricity is?
Should Iqaluit pay the same thing, Clyde River and so on?
And that will be the decisions that will have to come forward and we will definitely look at the domestic residential and commercial.
We have said that, we have said that in June in Baker Lake and that is what we would do.
So, I hope that helps answer the question.
Just a couple of comments and I will ask some question.
I picked up a copy of the McLean’s Magazine last week and I do the occasional reading.
In the headline, the top hundred companies listed in Canada this year and heaven behold, our Power Corporation, Nunavut Power Corporation did not make the top hundred this year and that is a tragedy.
Last year, it was in the top fifty and the top ten and you know, there is probably a reason why it is not listed in the top hundred this year for the obvious reasons.
But on that, it is amazing how much has changed since the Baker Lake sitting.
It is amazing the transformation in this Qulliq Energy Corporation and the Power Corporation since June.
It has almost been a wholesale change in the organizational structure.
And I was one of the ones who really pushed you as a Minister to split the Power Corporation from the Northwest Territories and I still say that is a good move and you did show leadership on that issue.
What happened in the meantime was it got a little lost in the shuffle because you are such a busy Minister of Health and Social Services that you could not devote your full-time attention to it to see that it went astray a bit, but it is nice to see that the Government and I have to commend the Premier for taking a lead on giving direction on where this Corporation is going, the Qulliq Energy Corporation.
I see a lot of the senior management are gone for whatever reasons, I do not know, maybe it is the transition to the Qulliq Energy Corporation or differences in philosophies or directions and stuff like that, but I am hoping that the Qulliq Energy Corporation is headed in the right direction finally.
It has only been a couple of years, but I am sure, under your leadership for the time being, it will head off in the right direction and at the utilities those users pay.
So, you know, I am not going to say too much more on that.
You said that you had twenty-seven owned houses and thirty-two leases.
My question to you Minister, and I know it is off the rate increase, but it does impact the benefits of employees.
Are Nunavut Power Corporation employees given benefits that way or more a typical Nunavut Government Employee?
Hon. Ed Picco: Mr. Chairman: I want to make sure for the record, as tactful as I can, say that two years ago, following Ikuma I, which was tabled in this House, following Ikuma II, which was tabled in this House, following a Qulliq Energy Corporation Report which was tabled in this House, laid out a plan, for the development affordable energy in Nunavut, we are still on that plan.
The Corporation didn’t fall astray the Minister wasn’t too busy on another file, let’s get serious about, Mr. Tootoo knows this, what occurred here is this, and very seriously I can say this, we didn’t have a financial statement from the corporation till this past May.
The Corporation would’ve only been operation for one year then.
The financial statements were not available, so how can I go back and say; well you’ve lost $5 million, $4 million or $2 million.
At the same time Mr. Chairman, those reports were tabled in this House and the Auditor General Canada said “hmmmm, you need to be able to get a better grip on the way these expenditures are doing”, and Mr. McLean was correct on that.
This is what we’ve done. There have been senior management changes; they have tightened up some expense.
As the Premier indicated in June, this past June, we weren’t sure if there was a revenue problem or expense problem or both.
And the first year in the operations as we said, we would lost $5.5 million dollars, we are in arbitration right now to get back at least $4million dollars of that, that’s pretty damn good, in the first year of the operation of the corporation Mr. Chairman.
That would be a loss of about $1 million dollars.
In the second year of the operation of the corporation, we’re trying to deal with some of the issues that have come up including the cost of generating electricity.
So we may have a loss but the loss could be considerable less than what we thought of going to be around $10 or $12 million, I hope that we could bring it under $8, so I think that’s pretty good.
Mr. Chairman. That’s where they came from, and where we’re going.
The Corporation has only been in operation for two years, and I think we’ve done quite a lot and again as Mr. McLean had said, when we put the rates in place in 1998, five years ago there was no cost recovery or monies put in for decentralizing in Baker Lake, no cost recovery or expenses for having a lone headquarters set up.
There was no cost recovery for setting up financial administrative as well as logistic areas, to cover off our own operations.
So where was the revenue supposed to come from based on the 1998 rates?
That is the debate we are supposed to be talking about here. I think for the record it needs to be put into the record and say that.
I’d be happy to debate that with anyone, in or out of the House.
And at the same time Mr. Chairman, directly on the question on the housing, there are housing procedures and policies in place, actually right now, some of us forget that we actually have a board of directors, who are tasked with running the corporation also.
Mr. Simailak, from Mr. McLean’s hometown is on that board.
We actually put two more people on that board; we put in two former senior civil servants, one being a lawyer and one being involved in the energy field with the oil, Mr. Ross Mrazek to actually add some assistance to it.
The new mayor of Iqaluit for example is also Member of the Power Corporation board.
So Mr. Chairman, strictly on the housing issue, all benefits that occur and reoccur for housing are under review right now by the committee of the board, and there are policies and procedures in place for Members that lease or rent units from the housing corporation.
I’m not in the position to say they are more or less or greater than what the GN is offering because I don’t have scales to look at both of them, what I can say with the majority of the things that are in place now, have been grandfathered over from NWT Power Corporation before we set up our own corporation two years ago, and if the Member is suggesting that we should go in and look at what we grandfathered from the Government of the Northwest Territories into the new Power Corporation, now that we have set it up separately, and that is something that we would be prepared to look at and we are looking at.
I think that after all this time that the Minister responsible for the Power Corporation would be used to taking a little criticism in his department and unfortunately it’s our job as Members of the Legislative Assembly to ask questions as he knows when he was in the Northwest Territories, he used to ask a tremendous amount of great questions; the Minister and you know I complement the Minister because he was one of the best at it.
In my own little way I admire Ed in his questioning techniques when he was in the Northwest Territories and if I can do a little bit of it too, I try to.
And like I say, when you raise the ear of our Cabinet Minister, you know it is sensitive and I don’t mean to do it on purpose, but as politicians elected to represent people in Nunavut we have to ask the questions that arose there.
I would hope that, yes there is some stuff that is grandfathered and yeah I know it is going to take time to change it.
But I would hope when you are looking at these policies at the Power Corporation don’t be treated any better than Government of Nunavut employees.
They work hard and I appreciate the efforts that they put in.
My colleagues in Iqaluit said that the people here in Iqaluit were not sure what was happening with their job positions and stuff like that.
Well I can sympathize with them.
I can totally sympathize with the employees in Iqaluit.
Because the employees in Baker Lake put up with that for two years also.
All of them didn’t know where they fit in the organization.
But you assured everybody today that everything is okay.
So, I commend the Minister on that.
When we talk about grandfathering and I’m glad you brought that up, when we grandfathered a lot of the benefits, did we also grandfather 40 thousand dollar bonuses for senior staff?
Did we pay out 40 thousand dollar bonuses to senior staff in the Power Corporation?
I am very proud of what has occurred with the Power Corporation, the genesis of the Power Corporation over the last couple of years.
People like Laura Gauthier who put a lot of time and effort who basically co-authored the Ikuma I report, and the Human Service put out in the file by people like Peter Scott.
I think we’ve moved in the right direction and if I was a little bit testy, I apologize to the Member.
I understand that your role is to ask questions and no one knows that role better than me, and I appreciate that.
I can say that, you know, in the corporate world, there are some things in corporate culture that were carried on from the Northwest Territories Power Corporation that have found their way into the Nunavut Power Corporation that we have under current review.
I think that is fair to say.
Some things that have crept in that we do not probably want to face and we’re addressing that right now in various ways.
Mr. Hawker who is the new person in charge of the power corporation has been very aggressive in reviewing all the status, the logistics as far as the administrative perks, benefits, costs and so on that are in place and like most organizations there are performance policies for senior management staff in place like there are for example in the Government of Nunavut.
I can understand that the Minister feels uncomfortable about answering the question, you know, that was asked and I’ll wait for a more appropriate time to ask it.
Grandfathering again.
Were VTA’s grandfathered into the Nunavut Power Corporation? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you. Minister Picco.
Hon. Ed Picco: Mr. Chairman, as the Minister responsible there were eight VTAs put in place for the Minister.
I am just kidding. No, Mr. Chairman, there were no VTAs that were grandfathered from the Northwest Territories Power Corporation to the Nunavut Power Corporation.
It is my understanding from Mr. Hawker, who is the charge of the financial operations of the Nunavut Power Corporation; indeed there are no VTAs as a benefit to the employees.
That is another rumour that I can squelch.
I am still waiting for an answer on the bonuses, and how much they are.
Is it true that the Power Corporation owes their sister company in PPD $12 million dollars in outstanding fuel bills?
Mr. Chairman, I think that I answered Mr. McLean’s earlier question.
I said that like the Government of Nunavut there are incentive pays in place for senior management.
No different from ADMs, or DMs.
Senior executive for the Power Corporation receives that like any corporate company that does it.
Mr. Chairman, again another rumour.
I am glad that Mr. McLean is bringing up these rumours up so we can dispel them once and for all to know.
The Power Corporation does not owe POL, Petroleum Products, the Department of Public Works and Services, $12 million, $10 million, $9 million, $8 million, $7 million, $6 million, $5 million, and $4 million.
Indeed we owe $3.6 million dollars right now to POL for fuel delivery.
In the last month, we owe $3.6 million dollars, and not twelve million dollars.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you. Mr. McLean.
Everything seems to be ahead in the right direction.
The people who have called me, given me this information from Rankin Inlet, when I go back through the next time I will have to sit down with them and say these are all lies, that a lot of this information is not true.
Like I say, they would be riding me at the airport in Rankin Inlet quite a bit about certain things, and now I can stick my chest out say no that is not true.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to know if he would answer this question directly.
Did senior management get $40 thousand dollars in bonuses last year from the Power Corporation?
Hon. Ed Picco: Mr. Chairman, I do not know why people in Rankin Inlet would be giving the Member a hard time.
I know that people are seeing, in that area of Nunavut, that the very good aggressive ostentatious type of narcissistic job that the Member is doing for the people of Baker Lake and that may be one reason why they are accosting him in the airport in Rankin Inlet and giving him the information that is incorrect.
I can, again, tell the Member categorically, that no, the answer is no on the bonus, in the amount that the Member is talking about.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Picco. Mr. McLean.
Mr. McLean: I will wait for the appropriate, proper forum to ask that question.
It just scared me a little bit that it could even be higher, those amounts.
On the Board of Directors, yes, you‘ve got very capable Board of Directors.
Since the creation of the Qullik Energy Corporation, have the Board of Directors been given more responsibility in the day to day operations, decision making of the Corporation now from a year ago, or six months ago?
Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. McLean had alluded earlier to some concerns that you know the Power Corporation was drifting a bit and at that time he eluded to the point that maybe there had to be a little bit of a different direction given by the Board and I think that is scarce to say.
The Board is taking, I would suggest to you now, the very act of the Board, the Chairperson of the Board of the Power Corporation, Mr. Simon Merkosoak, a former mayor, a well-known business person, an Inuk business person from Pond Inlet, we have, I believe, on the Board five former mayors, former mayor Denis Lyall, former mayor Simailak, Current Mayor Sheutiapik, for example, Ms. Crawford and Mrazek, we have an accountant, it is a very good Board, Mr. Chairman, we even have an expert from Ontario Hydro is on the Board, Mr. Holmes, from Niagara.
So, it is a very good Board and a working Board.
I will ask Mr. Flaherty just to give you an overview of some of the work that they have done.
Last week, we had probably one of the most important Board Meetings held to date here in Iqaluit with all of the Board Members.
Mr. Flaherty can give you an overview of some of the work that the Board is doing as he is directly involved with Qullik.
Mr. Flaherty.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Picco.
I will give Mr. Flaherty an opportunity.
Just to elaborate more on what Minister Picco had mentioned on what the Board is getting more involved in a way of ensuring that the Power Corporation and Qullik Energy is currently going in the right direction.
A week and a half ago, we had a Board Meeting, with about 80 percent of the Board Members attending, and Mr. Picco is correct when he said that we have a diverse group of individuals who are on the Board, with different backgrounds.
I am pretty sure that we have individuals with background on the Board, like from a Government’s perspective, like those with petroleum perspectives, some are more financial, but various group of individuals who really care what happens to the Crown Corporation.
And during the last Board Meeting, which was about a week and a half ago, the Board took a look to ensure that the communities that some of the events that are happening within the Corporation improve.
For example, there is a Transition Committee, which the Board is made up of basically three Board Members to ensure that there is a smooth transition of the implementation to April 1st and also for things like a Committee to ensure that the Auditor’s Report is followed through.
But there are some Committees being set up by the Board to ensure the Corporation is going in the right direction.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Flaherty.