EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) We are talking about transferring small funds to other categories and that is the reason for this item.
Mr. Oshutapik (interpretation): Your department’s draft 2012-15 business plan provides an update on one of its 2011-12 priorities, which is to “Implement new Capital Planning Process.
The new Capital Planning Process was developed and will commence in fiscal year 2013-14.”
Can you indicate how the criteria for ranking capital projects will change and how this new capital planning process will benefit municipalities?
Perhaps you can identify which page it is on so that the minister can reply to your question.
Mr. Oshutapik (interpretation): I’ll say it in English so that it’s understandable.
(interpretation ends) Your department’s draft 2012-15 business plan provides an update on one of its 2011-12 priorities, which is to “Implement new Capital Planning Process.”
The status indicates, “The new Capital Planning Process was developed and will commence in fiscal year 2013-14.”
Can you indicate how the criteria for ranking capital projects will change and how will this new capital planning process benefit municipalities?
Perhaps Kathleen can speak to the details.
I don’t actually have all the criteria here with me.
There are three of them. One is health and safety. The other is economic development to the community.
There are three of them and we can certainly provide those.
The idea behind the capital planning process is that we actually pull together technical information around what the problem is.
If we have, for instance, a lagoon and we think we need a new lagoon, we want to know what size that lagoon has to be, we want to know the soil conditions, where it needs to be located, and we want all of that information in hand so that we can do a proper budget estimation for the project before it goes forward for consideration.
Part of the problem we have right now is that we don’t have all of that technical detail.
We identify projects with class “X” budgets and they usually are not correct, and then it takes time to get the information.
So we have a budget that gets carried over year after year, it causes problems to the government, and then we may not, in fact, have an accurate cost estimate once we do all the studies.
So this process is intended to improve accurate information about projects before they actually go through FMB for approval.
Chairman: Qujannamiik, Deputy Minister Lausman. (interpretation) I have no more names on my list for page J-8.
Total Operations and Maintenance. $33,838,000.
Turn to page J-9. It is just an information item, but you may ask questions on this page.
This is on the sale of petroleum products which are increasing every year.
The question I have, Mr. Chairman, is on the Petroleum Products Division’s contracts for the delivery of petroleum products in the communities across Nunavut. Did they actually have to go to tender in 2011?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak (interpretation): Yes, Mr. Chairman, they had to be tendered.
I won’t be asking questions regarding the tendering process.
I was not pleased when the manager who worked for 28 years at PPD was fired. I don’t like to see this occur. Normally an evaluation has to be done when someone is going to be fired.
I was quite concerned when that was done. His mother had passed away not too long after and the individual had no job to look forward to.
I was quite concerned about that because it forced his family to go through hardship.
I was thinking that PPD is responsible for contracts out of Rankin Inlet.
Was that job taken out because they had to transfer the responsibility for contracts to headquarters? Is that part if it?
There is an agreement in regard to the question that the member is posing.
I don’t really want to talk about this issue, but I can say that the individual who was no longer working at PPD has nothing to do with this issue that you are questioning.
It has nothing to do with that, Mr. Curley. I can tell you that we cannot speak to the issue because there is an agreement.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. (interpretation) To date, that position is still vacant and the headquarters took over the contract. Who made that decision?
PPD is responsible for delivering contract services. They just followed the procedures.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): The fact is that PPD in Rankin Inlet was no longer responsible for what I’m trying to describe.
Turning to my next question, PPD provides fuel distribution and delivery services in 27 communities. Some of these services are provided by independent contractors on behalf of PPD.
How many requests for proposals for fuel contract services did the GN issue in the year 2011?
Before the minister responds, Mr. Curley, so you can help me and the officials here, please acknowledge us when you finish speaking.
If I understood the question, there were 25 RFPs for fuel distribution and delivery services in all the communities.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): So there were 25 RFPs.
Which communities were the RFPs issued for?
(interpretation ends) Which communities?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak (interpretation): All the communities received an RFP.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): As of today, how many of the government’s fuel distribution contracts are held by co-operatives?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don’t know how many contracts are held by co-ops or other businesses. I don’t have the details in front of me, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): Are there more fuel delivery contracts being held by co-ops or are there fewer, or are there more held by other companies in Nunavut?
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Curley. I don’t want to keep reminding you, Mr. Curley, but you should let us know when you are finished so that our technical staff will know what to do.
Hon. Lorne Kusugak (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don’t know whether the Co-ops are holding more contracts or if it’s the others.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): Maybe your deputy minister knows how many contracts are being held by co-ops. Are you going to be able to table that information in the House when you have the numbers?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My officials sitting next to me said that they didn’t know either when I asked them. If they would have known, I would have told you.
I’m not pulling your leg, Mr. Curley. Once I have the information, I will get back to your question.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): The reason why I’m asking that is because it was handled by headquarters. How many members were on the evaluation committee with respect to the RFP?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak (interpretation): The Department of CGS worked with Petroleum Products Division employees during the review of the contracts and followed the criteria that were required.
I don’t know how many people were doing the review, but I will make sure to inform the member once I have that information.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. (interpretation) For further clarity, I will read it in English. (interpretation ends) Prior to the closing date for requests for proposals, how does the department determine the need to issue an addendum to the RFP?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) We use the addendums when required. We follow all the criteria that are required in the procurement process. It is standard practice to meet the criteria in the tendering process.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. Are all the members of the evaluation committee employees of the Department of CGS or does it include representatives from other departments?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: My understanding is that they are employees of PPD and procurement, but I would have to reconfirm that, Mr. Chairman.
If the training is required, and we believe it is, what training is provided to members of the evaluation committee with respect to the methodology for applying adjustments under the NNI Policy?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: Yes, Mr. Chairman, thank you.
The training would be done through procurement.
Mr. Chairman, maybe Ms. Lausman can elaborate a bit on that.
The training on the application of the NNI Policy is actually a requirement from the NNI Secretariat.
The current process that’s used for RFP documents has been in place for a while and has been used a lot by the procurement section. They’re the ones most knowledgeable about how it’s actually applied and on what points, and they also provide some assistance and training on that part of it.
Mr. Curley: Was the compliance for the NNI Policy required for those RFPs?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak (interpretation): Yes. (interpretation ends) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Curley: With respect to the formal contracts that are signed with contractors to provide fuel distribution services, who signs each contract on behalf of the government, the deputy minister of the department or other officials?
The deputy minister.
Was the deputy minister involved in the evaluation process?
No, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Curley: Did the deputy minister ever discuss with you as to who should be awarded those contracts?
Mr. Chairman, I don’t decide who gets the contracts.
The minister should not decide who gets the contracts. That’s decided through the procurement process. Mr. Chairman, I would never have such conversations with Ms. Lausman.
Mr. Curley: On how many occasions during the past 12 months has the fuel distribution contract award been appealed through the government’s NNI Contracting Appeals Board?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: Once, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Curley: On how many occasions during the past 12 months has a contract award recommendation from the RFP evaluation committee been rejected?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: None, Mr. Chairman.
How does the department monitor and enforce a contractor’s performance and compliance with the terms and conditions of its fuel distribution contract, if any?
They are monitored through the contractor’s manual, Mr. Chairman.
On how many occasions during the past five years has a fuel distribution contract been terminated by the government prior to the expiration date of the contract due to default of the terms and conditions of the contract?
I believe the department had to do that once.
With respect to my first question, why was it necessary to issue an RFP?
My belief was that it was essential. If it was essential, it would have been to seek the best price and performance.
Are you achieving that right now?
Contracts such as these need to go to market.
To get as good a market that we could get, they need to go out there.
I believe we are getting the best value for service at this point, Mr. Chairman.
In one community, a number of planes have diverted routes due to the failure of the fuel delivery truck.
I don’t want to assume which community my colleague is alluding to, but I could hazard a guess.
Mr. Chairman, it happens on occasion. Some communities’ fuel delivery equipment may break on occasion or for one reason or another, they may not be able to dispense fuel. Unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, it does happen on occasion.
I think it’s really quite critical for the safety of the travelling public, including medevac airlines, that the fuel delivery be prompt and immediate when needed.
The minister indicated earlier that he’s provided with a compliance report, and so on, from those contractors.
It doesn’t appear to be the priority in ensuring that compliance report requirements be submitted to the department. Why is that so?
I don’t know where my colleague is coming from.
We do try to ensure that all things are complied to.
There is no underhanded work going on here, Mr. Chairman. It’s quite the contrary. We put out a public tender and seek the best dollar for the service.
I think some people are going to get the contract and, unfortunately, some are not.
It does happen. Our equipment sometimes does break down.
When it does, we give as early a warning as we can to all the airlines.
In this case, if we’re talking about airline fuelling, as my colleague talked about, we do let the airline companies know. If it’s the people who provide medevacs, who provide charter services and regular scheduled planes, we let them know as soon as we know that there is going to be fuelling issues. We try to rectify that problem as soon as possible.
We do, on occasion, have fuel trucks that do freeze. They do break down.
We try to avoid that at all times and we try to get those problems rectified as soon as possible, Mr. Chairman.
Our department does what it can to make sure that all the checks and balances are in place and are above board.
I would like to assure my colleague that.
I, too, would like to have the assurance and confidence of the department.
It appears to be that there is a perception that the government’s preferred contractor being one organization, the Arctic Co-ops and co-ops, and that doesn’t appear to give fairness to other contractors.
Having said that, Mr. Chairman, on one occasion, an airline had to pump fuel directly out of drums. The permission, presumably, was granted by CGS, as required by the agreement.
Why did CG&S provide approval to deliver fuel directly from the pump without a proper filtering system?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: Mr. Chairman, I don’t know what he’s talking about.
He could make assumptions, he could make allegations, but I can’t respond to allegations.
We don’t have that kind of detail. He should know that.
The best we could have done is what we did.
The Co-op happened to take some of the contracts. They didn’t win them all. There are non-co-ops out there that have the contract.
Unfortunately, my colleague doesn’t agree with it, but there was no collusion or there were absolutely no inner workings of any kind from CG&S procurement and PPD to keep individuals from getting contracts nor did they work in any way to make sure that any individuals got the contract. That was simply not done.
Those allegations are not real, Mr. Chairman.
I assure you that.
I don’t make false statements. I will never do that.
An Hon. Member: Neither will I.
Mr. Curley: It was reported and it was actually seen, and it was a driver who made that known.
Mr. Chairman, in one community, there were three service fuel delivery trucks. Right now, the two are seriously broken. They’re down to one.
I don’t have that kind of detail on me, Mr. Chairman.
I just want to say that I, too, don’t make false allegations.
We are page J-9.
While we are on this page, I wanted to say that the Co-op in Taloyoak was awarded the PPD contract last fall. I think there was a bit of discomfort on the awarding of that contract to the Co-op.
Is it operating smoothly or how long is the probationary period when you first award a contract to a company?
The hamlet has expressed a lot of dissatisfaction with the Co-op.
There is an orientation program for all companies that are awarded contracts. I’m sure that the same process took place in Taloyoak.
The Co-op doesn’t have a garage for their mobile equipment and they’ve had problems with the fuel trucks freezing.
Has that been fixed?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak (interpretation): We don’t have information on existing infrastructure in communities for contractors’ use. I will look into that and get back to the member.
Ms. Ugyuk (interpretation): Petroleum contracts and other contracts have a fairly large impact in the communities. I believe the social impact of the contracts is not taken into consideration in favour of the benefits.
In our community, this is causing a dispute between the supporters of the Co-op and private businesses.
I wonder how long an assessment will be done to determine if the Co-op is operating the contract properly.
We’re not informed how long the probationary period will be to determine whether a contract will remain in effect.
I would like to know if the contractor has problems.
I thank the member for bringing up that issue.
I concur with the member that not all bidders will be happy with the awarding of any contract that becomes available.
The winning bidder is generally very happy and the losing bidder is unhappy.
So whoever loses the bid is generally quite unhappy.
In some cases, long-time contractors have lost their contracts. The contracting process has to be open to all bidders and they should be able to bid on these contracts.
We can’t always keep on giving the contract to the previous contractor.
That’s just the way it is. After five years, a contract will be reopened for bidding and at that time, the bidders who may have lost the previous contract may apply. If the previous contractor loses, no doubt someone will be unhappy about it.
There has to be an open process whenever government funding is involved, Mr. Chairman.
It’s unfortunate that losing bidders are unhappy about not winning the contract.
That’s just the way it pans out.
Contracts are reviewed and they also check the contract contents to ensure that all of the provisions are being followed. If they’re not complied with, we would have to go through that process in order to find out what else we need to do.
Ms. Ugyuk (interpretation): I thank the minister for his responses. I would like to raise this question based on my understanding.
Arctic Co-ops has an agreement with the board of the local co-op as business partners. The board, with the urging of Arctic Co-ops, from what I understand, decided to make a bid for the contract. Although the community as a whole is not bidding, the Co-op board assumed that they had won the contract.
I am a resident of Taloyoak and the Co-op is owned by local people in the community. It’s quite embarrassing to see that there is a feud going on in our community over this fuel contract.
Although it applies to heating fuel, jet fuel, and gasoline, am I correct in understanding that Arctic Co-ops has an agreement with the Nunavut government? Have they now turned around and come up with an agreement with the local co-op?
I would like to get clarification on that, please.
Hon. Lorne Kusugak (interpretation): I didn’t quite get what she was saying. When the request for proposals was opened, the local co-op did apply. If you’re referring to Taloyoak, the Taloyoak Co-op did bid.
The Nunavut government didn’t go to the Co-op and ask them to bid on the fuel contract. That did not happen.
When the Co-op saw the request for proposals, they submitted a proposal on their own. In this case, the Taloyoak Co-op won the proposal after all bids had been reviewed.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Kusugak Ms. Ugyuk.
As the people of Taloyoak, we have been told that Taloyoak is run by Arctic Co-ops. They seem to be denigrating the Co-op for having taken the proposal away from the existing contractor.
It seems that Arctic Co-operatives, which is based in Winnipeg, convinced us in the community to bid on this proposal.
Although the NNI Policy speaks about Inuit majority ownership, it seems we’re being run by outsiders who manage these operations from a southern location.
That is why I want to understand a bit more about the fuel distribution contract that was awarded last fall.
As I stated earlier, this is how the bid process was done.
As to the particulars of the residents of Taloyoak, I have no say in that because we have no control over what people do.
What I can tell you is that they made a bid in the tender process and that’s all I can say.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. (interpretation) I just have a short question.
I want the minister to be fully aware that I first raised a question about the reason why this tender was undertaken.
You’re always looking for the best bidder, especially when you have a number of contracts that are the same.
Perhaps they’re following the criteria, but the minister doesn’t seem to think that bidders are complying. The bids are not low enough. There are performance measures that may be diverted.
For example, passengers had to wait two hours for the plane to be refuelled on its way to Iqaluit.
It ended up causing a delay, even though one of the newest fuel delivery trucks was used. It had a breakdown and it’s now in a very dangerous situation.
We’re not trying to state that certain bidders are not complying with the contract, yet the minister still refuses to believe that these actual cases are true.
How can we convince the minister?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) Mr. Curley is now accusing me of not believing his statement.
Did I say that I don’t believe his statement? Mr. Chairman, I never said that.
If that person believes that we shouldn’t have gone through the public tendering process, is he saying we should sole source the tender?
What is the member trying to state?
All of these contracts have to go through a public tender so that anyone in Nunavut who is eligible may bid on a contract.
If we were to follow Mr. Curley’s recommendations, then the contractors who won the previous bid would continue to be the winning contractors.
We are working with public funds, Mr. Chairman.
I never stated that I didn’t believe those comments. What I stated was that when the contract is not being adhered to, we can terminate the contract.
If a fuel truck breaks down and the jet plane isn’t being refuelled, we can’t just change our mind then and take away the contract.
Mr. Chairman, we’re not just going through the motions with these contracts; we’re following them to the letter of the law.
This is not a frivolous matter, Mr. Chairman.
A contract has to be open to everyone.
It’s very unfortunate that some bidders don’t win, but we have to follow the tendering process.
However, if a contractor is unable to fulfill their contract and they’re not fulfilling the terms and conditions of the contract and if we have to remove them, then we will remove them.
If we have to make changes, we will, Mr. Chairman.
The minister stated his displeasure, saying these are false allegations.
Am I the one making false allegations?
No and it isn’t just me. These are the facts that I mentioned.
I asked if he receives the reports (interpretation ends) in my prepared questions. (interpretation) I asked if they receive compliance reports.
He said that he didn’t know.
He stated that he wasn’t aware of the details nor did the officials sitting next to him.
Perhaps they’re all not being briefed fully.
The service has become unreliable, even when in danger. Are you aware of that?
That is our question.
We’re very serious and I’m not saying that it is being treated trivially.
We’re not cooking up falsehoods because there has to be compliance.
The contractors, including the ones in Taloyoak, (interpretation ends) must fill out the forms (interpretation) whenever there are problems and sent immediately to CG&S.
It turns out that some contractors don’t have to do that.
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) I can no longer understand what the member is trying to say.
Following his questions, we tried to respond fully.
We receive monthly reports on the contracts and compliance to them, and we review those.
I don’t want to bother answering his accusations.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): I’m not expecting a response since the minister is clearly not aware of the details.
What we’re trying to state is if safety becomes an issue and they’re not complying with safety measures, then it can become a very dangerous situation.
If the previous contractors had similarly acted, that would have been taken seriously.
Apparently the situation now is deemed acceptable and that things are going smoothly.
If we’re mistaken, then that’s something we regret, but it’s not intentional.
I wanted him to know that.
Again, I would like to refer to the NNI Contracting Appeals Board’s dissatisfaction about the contract being awarded that way and you didn’t accept its recommendations, despite their accuracy.
So the reasons why he didn’t listen to the appeals board’s recommendations are expected by many people.
The NNI Contracting Appeals Board didn’t take their role lightly, but you rejected their recommendations, which we tabled.
So why didn’t you listen to the NNI appeals board? You said it had gone through that board because of compliance requirements on RFP issues.
I’m not sure if you’re asking about petroleum products, but I will allow Minister Kusugak to respond.
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) I totally disagree with Mr. Curley because I’m informed about whatever I need to know.