EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
If I was the minister, what I would suggest is take the Auditor General’s report with all those checkmarks of things that they were going to do. The Nunavut Housing Corporation had a response and it was a really nice action plan of what the corporation was going to follow up on. I would get the board of directors to sit down and follow through and say, “Did you guys do this” and “Did you guys do that” rather than spend more money on an audit.
Maybe that’s already happening and we don’t know.
I feel like, in some ways, we’re actually telling the Nunavut Housing Corporation employees that we don’t believe in them by continuing to bring these things up. The question is, when employees try to do their job, whether they’re wondering what we’re going to ask of them next. I don’t know if I’m making my point clear because it’s getting so late.
I know there was the movement of the auditors from Arviat to Iqaluit. To me, one of the main issues around the Auditor General’s concern was the financial management and the recordkeeping.
We have sat through meetings and hours of talk about how everything is in place. To me, it is in place.
So I still question why the federal government is asking us to do something else.
Maybe the minister could help me understand a little bit more.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Elliott. (interpretation ends) Mr. Minister, will you help him out, please.
Hon. Fred Schell: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’ll try.
Basically what we’re trying to do is determine what decisions were made in those two programs and if wrong decisions were made, we’re not out here to blame anybody. We just want to make sure that that does not happen again.
I’m not saying that we don’t have the proper people in place.
Of course, we’re not different than any other department. We have certain people in certain departments that maybe aren’t necessarily qualified to do their job, but we’re doing the best we can, we’re always looking for new employees, and we’re always looking to train people. To say that I’m not confident that we’re doing a great job now is not the case.
I just want to straighten out and this is just a fact that this is what they want. I can pretty well assure you that once we do get this audit done, which is not a forensic audit, everybody will be happy and we will be able to carry on.
My next question is based around housing and where we’re going towards the future. It’s just a concern that was brought up with one of the local housing authorities when I was at one of their meetings.
To me, the way that the Nunavut Housing Trust followed through was we constructed the five-plexes, which dealt with the issue of smaller families starting out with two bedrooms and accommodating that specific need within housing. Now with the SIP houses, through the affordable housing initiative, we move towards larger houses with three bedrooms, I think, that would accommodate larger families.
The specific concern that came up was for the large number of single individuals and providing housing for them. Is there something in the works or is there planning for something to accommodate them? I’m assuming that it would be apartment style for the smaller communities.
Hon. Fred Schell: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are looking at multiplexes because, of course, multiplexes are the cheapest way to build per unit.
For example, a five-plex will cost you about $350,000 a unit and you get a single SIP unit at $600,000, so you can just about build twice as many for the same price. So we are seriously looking at it. That was the plan originally, to build these single homes, but we’re definitely going away from that in order that we can get more housing units for more people.
So just for clarification, there are twelve 12-plexes with one single bedroom accommodation for single individuals.
I’m not talking about single families, I’m talking about singles like bachelors and bachelorettes.
I think that’s the word that I’m looking for.
Yes, we’re looking at all options. We look at the waiting lists as to what’s most needed and that’s what we will be building for the next phase once we get some more money from the feds.
So in terms of reporting back to the community and letting them know what to do, what I told him was to make sure that they sent the minutes of the meeting that I attended and send that to Cape Dorset to make them aware, but I had also requested a letter specifically outlining… .
I think there was something like close to 50 individuals in one of my communities that needed single units for people.
I think it touched up on the idea, sometimes, that individuals who are maybe in their twenties and thirties, who would like to move out, are living with parents still.
So the idea of moving on and starting their own life is kind of difficult at this point. Is that the process?
Yes, we will be looking at all the communities, of course, all 25 communities, and it’s based on the need for all 25 communities, not necessarily just one community.
I have one question under this department summary.
This particular summary talks about additional funding received from different contributions from Canada Mortgage Housing Corporation, tenant rentals, and other income.
My question is under tenant rentals. I would think that the minister would be obliged to share the information that I will be seeking because we are talking about a public agency.
Now, you can rule me out, Mr. Chairman.
What are the total arrears from the tenant rentals?
If the minister is obliged to share that with the public, I would imagine so because we are talking again about a public agency.
I have a rough idea and Lori is looking it up exactly, but I think it’s around $19 million.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Schell. (interpretation ends) $19 million, I presume, would be for all of Nunavut.
I thank the hon. minister for that answer.
About a year and half ago, I asked a similar question and it was, I think, around $12 million.
Is the department, with the partnership of the LHOs, endeavouring to collect what it can collect?
I’m not asking, you know, that a tenant loses their arm and leg in doing so, but is there effort to try and collect money from the people who owe money to the housing corporation?
I was a little out on my figure, but I was pretty close. It’s $19,530,000.
We have hired somebody at the central office here in order to help with the LHOs for collecting the rent and we’re trying to do a lot of that here in Iqaluit instead of forcing the TROs to collect the money within the community because we know how tough it is sometimes to try to collect money from your brother, cousin, uncle, or something, and we’re trying to do it here.
Also, with the new rent scale, hopefully that will improve the amount of rent that people are going to pay and hopefully that will help them.
We’re looking at different options of how they can pay it and we’re looking at every option we can and trying to get that amount down.
You were out by $530,000.
I don’t have further questions for the hon. minister and the witnesses.
My point is that we have to show the counterparts, in this case, the federal government, that we are trying hard to try and collect money.
We have to be in good terms with our partners in Ottawa so that they can begin to become a little more generous, knowing that we are trying hard to keep our accounts up to par.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Ningark. (interpretation ends) I believe that was just a comment.
Just a couple of quick questions.
Earlier, when the minister was being questioned by another member, he mentioned that one way the Nunavut Housing Corporation was looking at obtaining additional public housing was to look to the public-private sector.
I believe there was a similar program years ago known as the rent supp program and I do believe the Nunavut Housing Corporation moved away from that practice back in 1994, if I’m correct, and I believe the reason for discontinuing the rent supp program was because of the added costs of the program to the GN.
What makes your department feel that it is a cost-effective method to build public housing 18 years later?
Yes, there is a limited cost to it, but there’s also a limited advantage to go into public housing.
Number one is that we can access more houses quickly, but I do agree that it was kind of stopped in ‘94. I’m not saying we’re going that way, but it’s one option we’re looking at.
If it’s an option you’re planning to look into, when do you anticipate getting to the point of issuing RFPs for our rent supp program?
First of all, we would have to create a program and then we would have to put it in the budget cycle.
So that would be a few years away.
What other avenues are you looking at to obtain more public housing in Nunavut?
Hopefully, with Nunavut residents getting some of these higher paying jobs in the mining sector, etcetera, a lot more will be able to move into their own homes and that will free up units for public housing.
That’s what we’re looking at and that’s why we’re trying to seriously look at improving the homeownership programs.
With the money from the Nunavut Housing Trust and SIP units… . I’m not exactly sure what they’re called. How many houses still need to be built in Nunavut?
How many more five-plexes and SIP units have to be built in the communities?
I know that in Taloyoak and Gjoa Haven, the construction is not completed yet, so I would like to know how many are yet to be built.
Of the 285 units, all of them except for about 10 will be completed by the end of this month and possibly 3 of the 10 will also be completed.
The contractor had a bad start in one of the communities in regard to that First Air plane crash where he lost a good part of his crew.
In her particular community, there are seven SIP units.
There is an issue with the contractor and it’s in the bonding hand right now. We’re going to be re-tendering it and it will be completed some time in May.
There is a condition rating for local housing unit tenants.
Does it help the people who are trying to get housing? Does this help tenants who live in substandard units?
How does this condition rating help tenants who are trying to get units?
The main purpose behind the conditional rating of the units is to determine what work needs to be done on the units, number one, so they can properly plan to fix these.
Also, if the conditional rating is down, it reduces the rent that the tenant pays.
I haven’t heard of any rents reducing because of the substandard condition of their units.
Has there been any lowering of rents?
I believe the rent is based on the income the tenant makes.
It definitely does go down with the conditional rating of the house and if you have an issue in your community where it hasn’t, I would like them to let us know.
I believe Gjoa Haven was the second community when there was a housing needs survey done. The new housing hasn’t been completed yet.
When are these units going to be completed?
It is one of the most common questions I hear.
They are all to be done over a two-year period.
I have a question regarding the Nunavut Housing Corporation under Article 23 of the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement and its employment targets for 2012-13.
How far away are we from achieving the targets set for 2012-13 and how difficult does it appear to be to achieve them in compliance with Article 23 of the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement?
If you count the LHOs at the housing corporation, we’re at 70.5 percent.
Mr. Oshutapik (interpretation): I thank the minister for that response.
Are we going to be able to reach that target for 2012-13?
The target for the housing corporation is actually 50 percent and if you count the LHOs, we’re at 70.5 percent.
It states here that one of your priorities for 2012-13 is to, in English, (interpretation ends) “Conduct an internal review of the Staff Housing Policy.” (interpretation) What action has been taken? We are in 2012. Could you give us an update on compliance with the regulations?
Normally, when we do the staff housing requirements, we do it between HR and the housing corporation.
This year, we will be consulting with all of the departments and therefore, it’s taking a little longer, so we haven’t got that complete yet.
Has the review been completed and would you be able to give us an update in the House before the year is over?
It’s still ongoing and once it’s complete, we will be able to table it.
Mr. Oshutapik (interpretation): With respect to these miscellaneous items, I have stated my wish to make them a priority. This seems to be part and parcel of the 2013-14 operational… . (interpretation ends) “Continue to implement action plan resulting from the GN Comprehensive Long Term Housing Strategy.” (interpretation) With respect to that, will this continue to be a priority?
Will you be continuing to provide updates on this issue?
We completed the first part, but for the implementation plan, we’re working with all the different departments and that’s going to take a little longer.
I have no more names on my list and I will be the last.
I would like to raise part of my previous question.
As people start to become private homeowners, that was one of the few programs that was not cut over the last two years in the Nunavut Housing Corporation’s cutbacks.
In following those actions, especially this winter, and last year as a matter of fact, how many homes were built by private homeowners through this budget? Exactly how many units were built if you look at Nunavut as a territory in its entirety?
I would like to hear that.
It’s about $3.3 million.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): I assumed it was close to $4 million.
I was actually asking how many units the homeownership funds actually resulted in building.
Yes, the budget for it was $4.5 million. What I was quoting you was spent as of January of this year. If I remember right, last year, there were 25 homes built.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): With respect to the budget, which was about $4.5 million, I didn’t quite get the number of units that were built.
Looking at what was approved, can he repeat that, please.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Curley. (interpretation ends) Clarification, please, Mr. Minister.
That total amount is for home repair, homeownership, and homes actually built, so I don’t have the exact amount of the homes that are actually built here. Just hang on a second.
I guess there was no building in homeownership.
That is what I thought and I was thinking about how many projects have been approved.
For example, I heard in our community of Rankin Inlet that people are having a lot of problems getting approved for mortgages with all of these materials increasing in cost, including the cost of land, as well as equity leases and the upfront mortgage down payment.
Can the minister elaborate?  In communities that have markets, such as Iqaluit, Rankin Inlet, and Cambridge Bay, what is the average cost of the equity leases that will be added to the cost of buying the materials and for leasing the land?
Perhaps he could elaborate a bit more on the details of that.
The equity leases in the community run anywhere from to $20,000 to $75,000.
I imagine the average cost per equity lease is about $50,000 to $60,000 and it seems obvious that there are different costs per community.
Can you break down the costs in these open market communities? Some citizens are having difficulty in trying to get a mortgage.
What I’m trying to state here is that private homeownership programs seem to no longer run efficiently. I wonder whether they can massage it to move it forward.
Perhaps the minister can explain how he would fix this program.
That’s why we’re looking at the long-term home strategy. We’re looking for barriers right now that are affecting homeowners from getting their own homes.
We’re also working with public works and the communities to try to get the costs down on these equity leases.
We’re looking at all the different options because we do realize that it’s a real problem trying to get your own home here because it’s very expensive.
The point I’m making is we now have an artificial market. I mean the prices are just skyrocketing out of the blue.
Will the minister assure this committee that he will undertake to study the market, whether or not, in fact, the actual cost of building homes is reflected by the cost of buildings in markets like here in Iqaluit? I think we have a good track record here to gather the information.
I think that’s something you should do rather than just calling on an extra audit, in my view.
The money would be better spent to try and figure out exactly how the cost is driving the market.
Can the minister undertake to review that and explain a bit how he’s going to do it?
We are part of the study now with CMHC on market factors. Of course, we all know that supply and demand is a big factor, especially in a community like Iqaluit, where there’s virtually zero vacancy. So we are working with them on this and we are definitely trying to find a solution to it and to make it more affordable for the average Nunavummiuq to get to own a home.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. Every day we learn something new; I do.
I don’t know about the minister.
We now have a new management concept that was just introduced by our friends from the High Arctic. All the action plans that the Auditor General recommended and has recommended for a number of years, including some audit statements that she or he just published not long ago, included very nice action plans.
Will the minister undertake to at least explain that the very nice action plans that the special audit carried out by Deloitte and Touche, as well as the Auditor General’s audit of last year, have all been part of the implementation plan and action plan that the housing corporation has adopted, as well from the cabinet side, that the housing corporation establish its governance structure as well as a management team and financial planning team in place?
Are they part of the very nice action plans?
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Curley. (interpretation ends) I don’t know if I heard a question.
Yes, they were part of the action plan, but they had limited direction as to what they had to look for.
So we are following what their action plan is, but there are other issues out there that they didn’t have… . Number one, when the audit, Touche over there… .They had very limited resources. As a matter of fact, they didn’t go to a lot of communities.
They did it over the phone.
They even put right in their audit that they cannot make an assumption as to what actually happened because they did not go there. So it’s a very limited audit.
I think there was a qualifier with the action plans: they have to be very nice action plans.  The point I’m making is that the audits have been made.
These are legal and these are professional audits that were conducted by Deloitte & Touche. This was an audit of the corporation compared to the regular annual audit. Why does the minister require another audit when, in fact, he has no transmittal from the federal government that they require an audit?
Why don’t you just forget about that audit, get on with the job of building houses, and explain to the federal government that the Auditor General has required a specific set of improvements and they all have been complied with and that the proper cost estimating provisions are no longer flawed? They may be very nice, but there are no longer flawed cost estimates.
I believe that is the political position you should take instead of just relying on another audit. Would that be possible?
I do remember when the hon. member was the minister of housing and I asked him a question about the $110 million and he told me just to forget about it. We, at the housing corporation, are not going to forget about what happened to the $110 million. Until we get to the bottom of it, we’re going to look at every option to find out what actually happened.
It was very limited what Deloitte & Touche had as a reference in what they looked at. They looked at certain particular situations there, but they did not look at everything that had to be looked at. So I am not satisfied with their report.
They put right in there that they can’t comment on it because they had limited resources to look at it.
Mr. Chairman, the minister indicated earlier that the purpose of the audit was that it was requested by Ottawa and now he is saying that he is not satisfied with what the audit accomplished or recommended for improvement.
Who actually requested that the additional audit be carried out and which period of the management years are you going to be auditing?
The general public would like to know what happened to the $110 million. We are looking at both programs, the Nunavut Housing Trust and SIP units, so that would be from whenever both of those programs started to the end.
Mr. Chairman, who requested the audit?
I requested the audit to the president and to the board of directors in order to clear the air on what happened with the $110 million.
Mr. Chairman, I am from the old school like my friend right across over there. You made a statement in the House the other day that Ottawa has requested an audit. Did you mislead the House?
I don’t remember saying that the feds requested an audit. All I said was that the feds were not happy with the results of the last audit and they don’t think we have all of our situations straightened out.
I never, ever said that the feds requested the audit. I said that the feds needed more explanation as to what happened with the $110 million.
Mr. Curley: When Madam Fraser conducted an audit, what was missing in her audit with respect to the housing corporation?
She looked at the financial situation of the housing corporation and determined that the money was spent, but she did not determine and that wasn’t part of her audit to find out what actually went wrong.
Who made the decisions to go to SIP units, number one, at $600,000 when they had, in their budget, $275,000 or $300,000? She didn’t look at those issues because that had nothing to do with it.
She just made sure that the money was spent and it was not spent illegally, that it was actually spent, but why was it spent was not determined.
Mr. Curley: With respect to the audit that the minister indicated to the House through question period the other day, you alluded to the fact that Ottawa requested an audit and you also indicated here that by virtue of discussions with Ottawa, another audit is needed.
Who actually did you discuss that an audit is required with officials from Ottawa?
It has been known that every time we bring up the issue with housing, it’s always said that we haven’t got our ducks all in a row.
Mr. Speaker, it was nobody in particular, but this issue is brought up every time we talk to any official from the federal government.
So will the minister table the terms of reference of the audit to the committee?
I definitely will once we have them in place.
Again, we have been talking about the Office of the Auditor General and whatnot.
One of the things that was discussed and one of the things that was supposed to happen was the training and update of program officers and local housing organizations’ tenant relations officers. I’m wondering if the minister could tell us how many people have been trained and updated.
It’s an ongoing thing. They’re trained every year and we don’t have an exact amount here, but it’s an ongoing process.
One of the other things that were happening was the updating of the tenant relations officer manual. Has that project been completed and do all local housing authorities have the new tenant relations officer manual?
They have all been completed, but they haven’t been printed yet and distributed.
Again, these are things that were supposed to be completed in 2009.
I was wondering if the minister could explain what the hold-up has been.
Due to all the other priorities, it has just taken longer than expected.
One of the other things that were on the list to do was the updating and a review of the Maintenance Management Program Manual.
I’m wondering if we could get an update as to what’s happening with that.
The manuals are going to print right now and they will be distributed shortly.