EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Hon. Peter Kilabuk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. All of the school operations are under 9-20.
Mr. Tootoo, any further questions.
Mr. Chairman I want to just ask again under the compensation and benefits, I would take it that that’s all the teachers and maybe just ask the minister if he could indicate the number of PYs that funds.
Mr. Chairman I'll have my officials answer this question but the other question, I have information under the compensation and benefits for teachers and how many teachers are employed and the percentage.
The guidelines said that we needed 419, but we have been able to hire 467 teachers, this is to answer the second question Mr. Chairman.
Chairperson (interpretation): Your first question has been answered and Mr. Moody will answer the second question.
I'd like to ask the MLA to ask his question again.
My Deputy Minister didn't understand the question completely.
I have asked the same question on each division. On the compensation and benefits here, how many PYs is that for and what levels are they filled at right now. The other part of that was is it all for teachers.
Mr. Moody: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a minute I've got the numbers here, let me say that no it's not all for teachers, it's for the PYs for the entire school system.
So most of these are teachers whether they are language specialists or classroom assistants etc.
In the school operations there are very few vacancies.
Each of these that I have is Mr. Chairman, I believe as of December 31st, a snapshot as of December 31 of 2000. In school operations, all divisions, there were 795 positions and there were only 14 vacancies.
Mr. Chairman, the positions that are allocated to the schools, how are they funded. Are these done based on, strictly based on the formula that exists on the school funding on the per capita or per student ratio that's used in determining the funding levels and the staffing levels of the schools.
I'm just wondering are those numbers out of that 795 basically, is that number based on the student population we have in Nunavut.
Mr. Moody: The allocation by school is first done by formula, which is student driven and that says this school should get for example so many teachers, so many language specialists.
Then there is now flexibility in the system which wasn't the case in all parts of Nunavut under the former divisional councils, the local DEA and the principal of the school can then tailor that to fit local priorities as long it overall makes educational good sense.
So, the example I used earlier this evening Mr. Chairman, in the case of Sanikiluaq they've chosen to have less in the way of classroom teachers but more in the way of language specialists.
Another school, for example, here in Iqaluit, or Baker Lake might choose to have more classroom teachers and less language specialists.
So just to summarize, the allocation is done by formula in the first instance and that says here's how much money you have per school, here is the formula that is student driven but then there is flexibility to allow the local DEA and the local principal to say here's what's most important for us in our community.
So, there's equity built into the formula but there's local decision-making and accountability in the actual allocation of funds.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On this formula that we’re talking about, I know that prior to the dissolution of the boards as everyone knows there were three boards and they were funded based on that formula.
Is it the same formula that we're using now that was in place other than the flexibility, the additional flexibility now that the community has to allocate those resources.
Just wondering if it's the exact same formula that we are using now that was there before.
Yes, it is the exact same formula and all that is also being reviewed at this time.
Mr. Chairman, based on the formula I'd just like to ask the minister or his staff if it was numbers driven, basically.
I'm just wondering if based on the enrolment, total enrolment of all the schools if all the schools were funded equally per student. I was informed that there was a cap at some point when it was done by regions there was a cap per students per region.
I am wondering if this is still in affect.
What that did Mr. Chairman, I'll just explain why I am mentioning this, and hopefully that is something that isn't there anymore or is under review.
When it was under the three divisional boards, it was my understanding and I can be corrected if I am wrong, that the minister said that was funded per student up to a maximum of a certain number of students.
I heard that and I would like to ask for some clarification. If that was the case and this resulted in the fact that like in the Baffin, which is such a large region, that it had a number of students that it wasn't funded for.
I am wondering if that is correct or is it wrong.
Was there a cap let’s say a larger region with a larger number of students didn't get the same allocation per student that a smaller region with a lesser number of students would get underneath that cap.
Mr. Moody: The general answer to your question is no.
Overall, there is no funding cap based on the number of students.
However, having said that, there are some components to the funding formula that had caps.
I have to check the detail Mr. Chairman.
I believe one of the components where there might be a cap within part of the formula is like in transportation where you are funded so much per student.
But I am not certain, I have to check that.
Generally, there is no overall cap to the number of students in the funding.
So as the community grows the funding formula allows for that to grow.
Let’s say if we had only two communities in Nunavut and one grew by 10 percent and we had allowance for additional teachers then the teacher funding formula would grow by 10 percent.
Mr. Chairman, I know I have been trying to figure out this formula for myself for some time now.
I know it is not a very easy thing, but I would appreciate if the minister or the staff could provide me and the members not right now but as soon as possible with a list of components that he talked about within that formula that are capped.
I am interested in what those are.
That is something that needs to be looked at, I don't think it is the fault of the region that they are growing the way they are, and I don't think any community should suffer as a result of a cap, especially in education.
I would appreciate that more as a request.
I don't need a response to that. I'd like to ask another question if I could Mr. Chairman.
On a couple of numbers that the minister talked about earlier, now the number of, I think I'll just say that I heard correctly that he indicated that based on the formula, the funding formula there should be 419 teachers and right now there are currently 467 teachers in the classroom, is that correct. Is that what he said.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Kilabuk Mr. Tootoo.
Mr. Chairman I'm wondering if with this twenty new teachers that were announced in the budget address, an extra 1.6 million dollars also announced in there, those are the numbers we're going to see, on top of that 467 teachers.
Also is that going to increase the compensation and benefits, 1.6 million dollars as well, looking at the numbers from last year, they've actually gone down from last year and not up, just for clarification.
Hon. Peter Kilabuk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman Yes, this will increase due to the increased number of teachers.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Kilabuk. Any other questions, Mr. Tootoo.
So that we're going to be by, I believe in the fall the minister indicated that we're going to see 487 teachers in the classrooms not 467.
In the fall, September this would increase.
Chairperson (interpretation): Any other questions Mr. Tootoo.
Mr. Tootoo: Mr. Chairman. Maybe if Mr. Nutarak would like to ask a question, let him go first, and I will ask a question after. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): I just thought that he was asking questions for 25 minutes.
You've gone past your ten-minute limit but he could ask another question.
Mr. Chairman, also in the budget address, and in the document the Minister of Finance tabled regarding the additional costs for fuel price increases, the effects on the school system.
In the budget address, there was 1.8 million set aside.
In the document here, that the Minister of Finance tabled, is 1 million 993 thousand. In the main estimates the only area it shows for education, fuel, any utilities have only increased roughly just 7 – 8 hundred thousand dollars.
I just want some clarification. I alluded to it earlier with the Minister of Finance, I wonder if I can get some clarification, to see which number is right.
On the numbers, I'll ask Mr. Leohr to answer the question.
First, I would like to point out that, of the 1.8 million dollars for fuel increases, 433 thousand was apportioned to Nunavut Arctic College because we funded both the schools and the college.
That was utilities for the entire department.
So the increase to school operations was 1.4 million.
If I could explain maybe the total of expenditures from the change from the revised estimates to the current figures.
The revised estimates have 77.85. If we go from there and add an increase of the 1.6 million and 1.4 for fuel, that is 3 million in total.
There is also included in the revised estimates in the salaries, a portion of that was PD funding that is actually in the revised estimates.
That actually belongs in the PD funding for the teachers.
That should have been transferred to the teachers in the early childhood.
So that is the 800 thousand dollars.
That should not have been in this 77.885.
It should have been 77.085 and we added another 200 thousand for additional support from the DEC dissolution.
There was an increase of 19 thousand dollars that came from the Financial Management Board for the Northern Allowance increase.
There is one more that was allocated to corporate services and planning, overall allocations as we did with all the other branches, which was 400 thousand dollars.
That was a decrease.
The net change was over 2 million if you add the 800 thousand dollars.
That was a correction of the original opening figure.
There is really a 3 million dollar increase.
That covers the 1.6 and 1.4 million dollars.
I would also like to add that in the salaries and compensation they as well as showing up in the compensation and benefits, there are also salaries in the DEA level that are formula funded because we fund some salaries through to the DEAs and they hire the employees at that level.
Mr. Tootoo: I am going to have to read the Hansard to figure that one out.
Put it all together.
I am sorry but you lost me with all the numbers.
I was asking more specifically about the utility increases.
I'll take a look at the Hansard tomorrow.
If it is not in there I'll ask the minister a question in question period about it. Whew, that was quite the string of numbers.
Another thing I would like to ask the minister and his staff about.
I know I met with the previous minister and the deputy minister previously on concerns regarding the formula.
I am very pleased to hear the minister thinking about reviewing that formula.
I want to ask first off, when did he plan on taking a look at that and is it something they are looking at reviewing and hopefully being able and do they have a target on when they will be able to implement some of those changes.
Perhaps you are falling asleep and can't understand the answers.
The review should be done by June and we'll look at it before then to see if we need more funds to complete it.
If we need to increase it, it would have to be approved first.
I'm sorry I'm starting to fall asleep, Mr. Chairman.
But it would have to be approved before we make any increases.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you. I don't have any other people on my list.
If there are no other questions.
Mr. Tootoo has been asking questions for about 30 minutes.
We should have followed the ten-minute ruling.
But I think we need to see if other members have any questions before Mr. Tootoo can go ahead again.
I have more questions but I already indicated once before if other members have more questions I'd be willing to wait and let them go first before I ask more.
We have day-to-day operations in the school and I'm sure the janitorial stuff is on there too.
When my constituents ask about, you know you have permanent workers in there, I bet you the budget number is in that too for when you talk about the compensation and benefits.
Is that one of the things too.
They’re both there under compensation and benefits and as well the local education authority and councillors. The local education authority is paid from that as well.
Mr. Havioyak: I know that, correct me if I'm wrong, is there, maybe I should ask first.
Is there some janitorial services contracted out in some schools.
The reason I'm asking is that we talked about small businesses in the different levels or different departments. Are we supporting any of the small businesses in this area for where we can contract some of these services.
We don't have anyone that is being contracted out for janitorial services but we can look into it but we don't know at this time if there's any contract janitorial people that might be out there.
Mr. Havioyak: The reason I brought this up is because it was brought to my attention by my constituency.
There’s thousands like this for any department I guess to consider where they can try to open these small business.
I know where in my community, we have a small janitorial business, which can provide services to the school, both schools in my community.
I guess this is a comment saying, you know, you should really look into very seriously to support our small businesses.
We don’t know at this time who in the communities has that kind of small business and we can probably look, ask the Chamber of Commerce, members in each community perhaps.
So we can look into it.
Under 9-20, is that where we are.
First of all, the compensation and benefits in the amount of 58 million 119 thousand.
I just wondered whether that is for all the employees, benefits and compensation.
What about for the ones that take over say on a part time basis when the janitor or employee is sick.
Or when they have to have a substitute teacher or an alternate janitor or perhaps the individual is on maternity leave.
People that have to go on adoption leave or have to take some time off.
Does that 58 million 119 thousand cover all those people that I just mentioned.
Hon. Peter Kilabuk (interpretation): Yes thank Mr. Chairman. Yes, the compensation and benefits come from that 58 million, 119 thousand.
That’s where the money comes from according to the member’s question.
When we were still under the Government of the Northwest Territories, at the time of the Divisional Board of Education, it seems like I’m not really sure exactly how it ran. But, when they were going to be teaching Inuit Culture, there used to be people that took that course to give them cross cultural education or training, like to teach the new recruits how to live in the north and how to teach in the North.
They had to take that kind of training.
The question that I have Mr. Chairman, is are there going to be people to train them and would they be included under the compensation and benefits or will that money be coming from somewhere else.
There are people that give out training to the new recruits when they first arrive in the north to teach them about Inuit ways.
Are they no longer there.
Is it under Culture, Language, Elders & Youth now that we have a department of Culture, Language, Elders & Youth.
If you can understand me, Mr. Chairman.
Chairperson (interpretation): Maybe your preamble can be a little shorter next time so the questions are clear for the minister.
First of all, there is still the Teachers’ Association that carries out this training.
They have to have some funding from somewhere to teach the new recruits the Inuit culture when they go into the communities.
If you have a question. Please ask the questions without preamble.
Whenever there is going to be training out on the land, there has been a lot of assistance from the parents and from the teachers.
A lot of communities wanted to have that training for the students going out on the land and teaching them Inuit culture such as sewing and what not.
Taking the male students out on the land.
Would we be asking for money from there for that kind of training from your department.
Chairperson (interpretation): The question Mr. Puqiqnak is asking is under Culture, Language, Elders & Youth’s department and we also talked about it in the previous pages.
Even so, perhaps the minister can clarify what is happening.
The local education authority is given money from our department.
It could come from the local education authority for that kind of program.
Mr. Puqiqnak (interpretation): I would like to ask another question.
I asked last week about contract services.
Mr. Chairman, I think I was going to ask that question and somebody else asked the question about the 1 million 283 thousand dollars.
There are communities that don't have buses.
Would you be able to contract the busing service to have a contract with a company with your department to provide busing for communities for those communities that don't have a bus service.
The only problem that we might encounter is that they have to follow the rules of the Motor Vehicles Act.
If the private companies have adequate bus services that are following the act and everything then we would be able to talk with them.
They have been trying to get the private business to get the busing service, but they do run into barriers and problems because of the rules and they have to have a certain driver’s license.
They have to meet certain classifications.
That's why we have been unable to get other private businesses.
We can no longer use their vehicle any more because it is too old and I'm sure that there will be someone applying from the private businesses.
If they had their own van, I was wondering if they could utilize the private vehicle to service the students for busing. I was wondering if we could use the contractors for busing services.
Yes now I understand, when you speak to this issue, this is more a comment than a question because I wanted to get further clarification.
It's more of a comment but I'll ask Minister Kilabuk to respond if he wishes.
The only thing I could say is that the vehicle, if the vehicle is owned by a private business, the Department of Education can not provide a vehicle for them but if the private business can use his, he could use his private business to make an application.
It is nice to hear you say that. Mr. Puqiqnak.
I just want to clarify to the minister, yes, we have already utilized that in our community but I was just trying to ask if we could, if you could use private businesses as a contract or if you could contract a private business for busing services.
Do you agree or do you say no.
Before I say no, or before I say yes, I just want to have a further understanding with you, that they have to provide the vehicle but if you want to work with the Education Department, and you want to review this kind of thing, we're willing to work with you.
Mr. Puqiqnak (interpretation): Since you stated that you are willing to work with us, the District Education Authority would be willing to work with you.
They would understand like when I asked you a question for example, earlier on whether you would say yes or no, that's the only answer I wanted. I wanted to get it because I have to report back to my constituency.
Yes if you agree that there could be a private business to service the students for busing then I will say that.
In order to, so that we can have better understanding with each other yes we can work with your community but it would include negotiations so that we can have an agreement.
If there was an agreement it would go ahead but if it was not approved it would not go ahead.
So I want you to be clear on that.
Perhaps I could discuss this matter further outside the chambers because we can come to a better understanding in regards to this issue.
Page 9-20. Mr. Tootoo.
Mr. Chairman, the minister talked about a review earlier of the formula.
I just wanted to ask the minister, you indicated that it was going to be done by June.
I'd just ask the minister who's doing that review.
The education policy analyst and a person outside of the government will be dealing with those issues.
The person that he had indicated, is this someone a consultant, someone that is aware of the conditions and challenges that are faced up here in Nunavut.
Is this going to be someone from here that's assisting to work on that, or will it be someone from outside of the Nunavut that doesn't have a clue unless they are told in regards to the circumstances that we face, who will be reviewing this and I'd like some clarification on that.
It's not because they are experienced in Nunavut that we selected that person, but the individual has worked in other jurisdictions across Canada.
Looking at our departmental representative who is familiar as to how Nunavut is and how different it is, that's why we are using these individuals.
Mr. Chairman, is it two people who are doing that review or what are the types of consultations going on, who is being asked to provide any information or suggestions.
Is it just the individual from outside of Nunavut and their senior policy guy doing that.
Hon. Peter Kilabuk (Interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Yes, the two will be co-ordinating the review but they will be working with the people who are experienced in the Department of Education.
They'll also consult with the interested groups or the people who agreed to have input.
Will they be consulting with the frontline users being the teachers, principals in the schools and also people responsible at the community level for delivering those programs, the DEAs and communities.
I'll have my Deputy Minister elaborate.
The first part of the response would be that everybody that we met with, the list isn't drawn up yet. We’ve got several months to go.
But, generally speaking this would be a very technical study.
Like for example, taking a look at transportation formulas.
It is not the kind of thing that we would want to consult more widely on.
A lot of the components of the formula are technical.
There will be a number of Nunavummiut involved.
Educators and policy folks who will be able to bring to the study the northern prospective and all the different things that are important to us.
But the full list is not drawn up.
I would suspect that it would involve people from DEAs who are used to looking at choices.
Perhaps a few principals, certainly the people in our school services operations area.
I wanted to mention the policy branch.
So that would be a core I would think.
And, the last thing I want to emphasize is that this is not quite yet finalized in terms of the next few months out.
Mr. Chairman, I am just wondering when I mentioned earlier that I met with departmental staff and the minister in the past, one of the issues that raised a concern in the communities with the teachers is the fact that according to the formula your principal and support staff were counted into that formula into the schools. With the direction the Education Act is taking and some of the changes in that, it is adding more administrative responsibilities on the shoulders of the principals.
It is more of an administrative position and not a teaching position.
I know that was a concern that was raised last year.
I am hoping that something like that will be taken into consideration looking at the draft.
The last draft of the Education Act has had a lot more administrative responsibilities passed on to the principals.
They are counted as a teacher in the way the schools are funded right now as well.
That is not really…
Hon. Paul Okalik: Point of Order.
Chairperson (interpretation): There is a Point of Order.
Hon. Paul Okalik: We are here to discuss the budget.
We are not here to discuss the Education Act.