EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Is she saying then if the remaining positions that were there, whose job it was to monitor and to develop the budget, make sure the financial controls were in place, or are those the same people that are paying the bills?
I thought that, in my experience, in finance is there are data entry clerks and there are payment clerks and those individuals are not the ones that are doing monitoring and those are the more senior positions in Finance that are doing that.
What I’m trying to say is that from the sound of it, the minister is saying that all of her staff in Finance were too busy paying bills to do the other parts of their jobs as well. Is that correct?
Just to clarify, I didn’t say that the staffs, all of them were doing payments; I’m just saying the payment takes up a lot of time and energy of a division.
With the transfer and assistance of Finance, we will be able to manage the finances a bit better.
Within the department, we have some financial analysts.
Over time, just the volume of work is a challenge for us but with this change and with the support of the Department of Finance, we will be able to address those more accurately I guess.
One of the other things that the minister mentioned in her opening comments was the need to have a stable and qualified workforce, and I know that roughly a third of the department’s positions are vacant right now, and I also understand that there has been quite a turn over within the department of senior officials, which could lead to, in my mind, some of the problems that we’re seeing here.
I’m just wondering if the minister could indicate in her senior staff how many turnovers she’s had.
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Since I’ve been in the department, with the changing deputies, Bernie left and Ron started, Phoebe was there for a short time and left; from the executive directors in the regions, they’ve been in place for a long time.
If memory serves me correctly, there has been at least one deputy; two if you count the interim deputy, both assistant deputy ministers that were there. I’m not sure if the minister can indicate how many, if any of her senior finance officials have left the department as well.
I’m going to get Ron to answer that question because I don’t know all the individuals in operations.
Madame Alder.
Ms. Alder: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Over the last couple of years, we have had a change in two Assistant Deputy Ministers of Corporate Services, and we’ve had our Executive Director of Corporate Services leave the department. We’ve also had our budget manager change as well.
Those are the only senior financial positions that we have had changes over the last couple of years.
Chairman: Thank you, Madame Alder.
That doesn’t sound like a whole lot but those are pretty key people within any department to be leaving.
Were there any consultations done with them as to why they were leaving?
I know that the Department of Human Resources does exit interviews, but did they do anything like that to find out why those individuals were fleeing the department?
The hiring of senior staff, the deputy minister and assistant deputy minister, that is handled through the Senior Personnel Secretariat, so I don’t know if they did an analysis of that.
As for the other positions, I’m not sure. Can you answer that Ron?
Did you do follow-up?
There were informal discussions with the staff that left. Both were confidential discussions.
There were a variety of reasons for leaving and I can’t give any more information than that at this time.
Trying to do my math here from this I got, I just want to confirm that there has been a change in seven senior staff in the last two years, is that correct?
I think that the figure of seven that the member has mentioned is approximately the right figure, and just to point it out that this has occurred over an approximately two-year period.
One of the other things that Mr. Browne talked about earlier was the cost drivers, that one being the contract nursing.
Can the minister give us an update on the status of the contract we have in place at Trillium?
I am going to ask the assistant deputy minister to join us at the table; he is in charge of that file.
Mr. Richardson.
We have a contract with Trillium to recruit nurses. The contract is in place.
We have a plan with Trillium to recruit a pool of nurses, replace any international nurses who have left and to increase our numbers by 50 indeterminate nurses.
I thank Mr. Richardson for that information that we all know already, but I guess when I was looking for an update could it be a little more specific, like one; how much have we paid them, two; how many nurses were they required under the contract to provide us for; how many nurses do they actually provide us with?
What is the cost if one of the nurses that they provide, one of the international nurses they provided, had not passed the national test to be able to practice over here?
How long was the contract for initially? How long is it for now? What are we doing on that?
In my recollection, it was a one or two year contract they haven’t come anywhere close to meeting. It’s like a perpetual end date now.
I’m looking, it’s up to us to make sure we are spending money wisely and in this case, I know, I was concerned at the time when they were paid up front for the contract.
We have people here, local contractors, that can’t even get paid within the time required by the Financial Administration Act, to get paid, northern suppliers. But that’s a different story.
All those kinds of details on the contract I guess when I was asking for an update on that, if I could get that kind of information from the minister and officials in regard to that contract would be splendid.
I think I heard like 15 questions so, if it’s okay with the member I will go through the Blues and pull the questions and provide something in writing to the member, as I don’t possibly have all those statistics here in front of me.
So if that’s okay.
I’d like to welcome the Premier, and also Mr. Barnabas to the House.
We’re on Health and Social Services.
I asked for an update and those were ideas of the types of things I’d like to hear.
I know that the minister has that information. I’ve asked for it in the past and received it in an in-camera meeting, so I would like to hear that information.
I don’t want to wait for it.
I know that they have that information. If she wants, I can give some of that information too, if I wanted to.
It’s not up to me to provide that information; it’s up to me to ask questions. It’s up to the minister and her officials to give us the answers. So I’d like to hear those answers.
I will attempt to answer as many of those points as I can recall.
The term of the contract was originally for two years and was extended to five years, so the contract will continue to 2010.
The original contract looked at recruiting up to 100 nurses. The contractor recruited 34 international nurses, and we still have, I believe 22.
The contractor is replacing the nurses who left, and are working towards a target, at the moment, of 50, and is recruiting a pool of nurses so that we have that as a means of reducing the number of agency nurses to meet our casual employment.
Those are all the points that I can recall at the moment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
How much have we paid total, so far, for this contract?
Mr. Richardson: Mr. Chairman I am sorry I don’t have that figure presently available.
We are paying $13,000 for each international nurse and $11,000 for each Canadian trained nurse, according to the contract.
There were some advance payments, and I’m afraid that I don’t have those numbers available.
Minister Aglukkaq, would you like to add to what Mr. Richardson had mentioned.
I’ll ask Shirley to come back now because she has those details, in terms of what was paid out.
Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the minister’s staff.
In 2004-05 we paid $429,786. In 2005-06 we paid $533,324. So far for 2006-07, we’ve only paid $10,500.
So we paid roughly around $1 million for 22 nurses. Is that correct?
We paid for 34 nurses. Although we only have 22, Trillium is committed to replacing the 12.
In addition of what we had paid them in 2004-05, $326,000 was an upfront fee for ongoing. So they still have some commitment to us to provide us with up to 50 nurses right now.
So we do have some assets with Trillium for future nurses.
I know that we paid for 34 and only got 22, and the officials have indicated that Trillium is on the hook for 12 more nurses.
How long do they have to fill those 12 positions?
For those positions that they haven’t filled, and we have to hire agency nurses for those, shouldn’t they be paying for the fees of the agency nurses for those 12 positions?
We’ve already paid them for 34. We only got 22. There is a shortage of 12 there, and that’s costing us.
So, what is the deadline for them to get those other 12, never mind to get up to 50 now instead of 100, and why are we paying for those positions and not them?
We’ve had to change the focus of recruitment with Trillium and to concentrate not on international nurses but Canadian nurses.
We’re working with them to start that process and rather than all the energy to go international. So, that is still being worked on through some staff. The agencies that provide agency nurses are separate from the Trillium Company.
So, we have a contract with Trillium to do some recruitment for us for a longer term. Agency nurses provide short term relief for our staff, or fill in for those vacancies.
They still have an obligation at their cost to replace the 12 nurses of the 34 that we paid for.
I know that was an answer a couple of answers ago, but my question was: if we’ve paid for 34, and we only got 22 out of that 34, and as a result of that we’re having to pay the 12 agency nurses to fill those positions, why are we paying for that and not Trillium?
Those are two separate contracts. Agencies that we work with provide short term relief.
What we’re trying to get out of Trillium are long term nurses that will stay more than a week or two, or a month.
So, the relief is covered through the agency contract. Trillium is longer term recruitment that we’re trying to deal with in terms of filling our vacant positions.
I realize that, and I know that there are two separate contracts, but if they’re required, and we’ve paid for 34 nurses, they’ve only given us 22, they have a commitment as the minister had indicated to provide the difference, what time-line is on that commitment?
We’re paying agency nurses probably at double or triple the rate of what we would pay for the cost of having an indeterminate nurse.
What incentive is there for them? It’s not costing them anything not to be in a rush to do it.
What incentive is there for them to...the contract has already been reduced from 100 to 50? It’s already been over doubled in the length of time. Why don’t you just make it a long-term open perpetual contract?
Is there no requirement for them to provide the services we’ve paid for already? They’re not fulfilling them … to me; they’re not fulfilling their obligations under the contract.
The recruitment firm Trillium made their best effort to provide us with 34 suitable nurses and we made our best effort to have them adjust to our working environment here in Nunavut.
For 12 of those that didn’t work out, and Trillium is now making its best efforts to find others.
As the minister said, we are requiring Trillium to look only for Canadian-trained nurses at this point in time but we’re both making our best efforts to find those and hire them as quickly as we can. There’s no requirement though that the recruitment firm pay for vacancies until they do.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Browne. Mr. Tootoo.
It’s nice to see that you’re doing your very best to try and accommodate and so are they but quite frankly I don’t believe it is good enough, I don’t know if it’s on our part or on their part.
To me, we paid upfront for 34 nurses or more. We paid them just about $1 million already, and they haven’t provided the nurses that we’ve paid for already.
So now, they’re just hanging onto our money and they seem like, ‘Well, we’re doing our best.’
But is there no deadline date or anything to get or for the department to receive the services that it already paid for upfront?
Is there a deadline date other than the two to five year extensions on that and that will take it to...it’s already been three years and they haven’t even come close to half. It’s just under half if you go to 50, they’re under a quarter of the initial contract that was supposed to be a two-year contract.
Is there some point where you say, “Sorry, you didn’t live up to your obligation under the contract; give us our money back.” and you can use it for someone else?
At what point do we cut our losses and say we’ll go out and find our own, instead of having someone else do that for us, which doesn’t seem like they’re doing a very good job.
Since we established the contract with Trillium, we have seen a reduction in our vacancies in nursing positions.
At that time when we contracted with Trillium to assist us in our recruitment efforts, international at the time, we had 81 vacant nursing positions in Nunavut and we’re down to about 54 at this point in time.
So there has been a difference with that contract for us.
Trillium has a legal obligation as the member indicated to replace the 12 positions, and we have made some changes to focus their energy to recruit within Canada since the last go-around which was, I believe, November or October last year.
We are working with them to fill those vacancies that would honour their contract and we’ll take it from there.
If, at the end of the contract now which is five years, they still haven’t … has the department told them we want some benchmarks within year three, we’re in year three, now we’re at 22; year four, we want at least the 12 nurses that we paid for already to be in there; year five, I guess we require another 16 to fulfill their already cut in half obligations under the contract.
Has the department said that or just or like, just as long as you’re doing your best it’s okay?
When we’re dealing with shortage of nurses we are trying to address the shortage of nurses in different ways: training our own, Trillium Recruitment Company, and agency nurses.
We are trying to fill positions and so long as we have vacancies and challenges in place, we will continue to use agencies, as an example, and train our own.
In the case of Trillium, they have an obligation to fill the 12.
Once they fill the 12, we will then evaluate whether we require their services and take it from there. But as it is right now, we need their assistance in recruiting for the vacant nurses we have in Nunavut and evaluate it after the 12 positions have been filled.
The assistant deputy minister here is working closely with them and can report on where we are at with that probably in the spring.
I think, going to referring to training our own, Agency Nurses, I mean speaking specifically with this funding, you mentioned that there were 81 vacancies before, now they are 54, that would mean that there is 27 positions that have been filled since that time.
Out of that, they have only provided 22; we have provided five on our own. How much did that cost us? Certainly it didn’t cost us $1 million or even a quarter of that.
If you look at the percentages-wise, for every four nurses that they hired, or had been able to obtain for us, we have been able to get one on our own.
I guess the question is, from what I’m hearing, is that the department has not told Trillium anything as far as targets. They owe us 12 and that’s it, and they owe us another 16 after that to meet the obligations, and as long as you’re doing your very best to get it done like that, that’s fine with both of us?
At what point do you say, look, you’re not fulfilling your obligations under the contract.
We paid already for those 12; we probably paid for more than that, you have to have them to us by this spring or this fall.
If they’re going to bill the services that we paid for already, either provide the services by x date or else give us the money back.
Are they not looking it like that at all, or is it just, yeah, whenever, kind of a laissez-faire attitude towards the whole thing, and I’m sure if another contractor within Nunavut here were prepaid upfront like that there would be all kinds of pressure on them to provide that stuff or else you are in default of the contract, which to me it seems exactly what’s happened here.
It’s a question of why aren’t we doing anything about it, other than just keep doing your best. That’s good enough.
Why hasn’t the department put any pressure on the contractor to meet their obligations under the contract?
In 2004, of the 168 nursing positions that we had in Nunavut we had 81 vacancies. We contracted Trillium to provide assistance for recruitment of international nurses because of the national shortage of nurses in Canada.
That’s still a reality today. We cannot fill every single job. We’re competing for a small pool of nurses in Canada just like we are with doctors.
So we continue to try and work with Trillium to fill our vacancies.
The individuals that wrote their exams in the fall, about three months ago, resulted in the 12 positions being vacant.
So Trillium has been instructed that we want to refill those positions with Canadian nurses.
The positions that became vacant only became vacant in the fall of this year.
So it’s, of course, a target that we’re working to address with Trillium. We have been successful with the 23 hires. We still need to get the 12 positions filled.
Hopefully, within the next few months we can address that.
The challenge still remains for us, as a territory, to recruit nurses because there is a national shortage. We’re competing in a very small pool. We’ll continue to try and use different resources to fill essential services in our communities through agency nurses, through Trillium, and through the training of our own, as well as through casuals.
The timeline I committed that I can report back is in May when we have our spring sitting. I can report back as to those positions, whether they’re filled or not by that time.
But we’ve only become aware of the 12 with the last written exams of the international nurses, which was in the fall.
Total Operations and Maintenance. $21,682,000.
I’m sort of in the middle of this. So the minister is saying with Trillium then now their focus is in filling their current obligation of 12 and never mind the other 16 that they owe us under the contract?
Is that basically what the minister has said?
Can I get a confirmation of that?
The priority is to replace the 12 nurses who did leave last fall.
That’s the first priority for Trillium to fulfill. Once that has been filled in we will have them work on the remaining 16 nurses that bring us up to the 50, in total. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It seems kind of backwards to me. That shouldn’t be our priority; that should be their priority. Our priority as a government is that there is still 16 more that you have to fill outside of that.
Why is it our priority that they fill the 12 that they already failed to provide, that we paid for?
Why would that be our priority when it should actually be their priority, on top of the existing amount that they owe us still, of 16.
So I would say that our priority should be, you provide us with 16 as soon as possible, and it’s up to them. We paid them for it already for those other ones.
That’s their problem. It is not our problem anymore. It’s their problem.
Why is that our priority, those 12, and not the 16 that they owe us yet, that we already paid for?
We are working with Trillium to hire 28 additional nurses as quickly as possible.
Whether we categorize them as 12 to fill the nurses who were not able to remain with us, or the 16 that go beyond that, we are working with Trillium to recruit the additional nurses to bring it up to 50 in total as quickly as possible and it is a priority for us.
Under the contract and in this budget, are there monies in this budget allocated for that particular contract?
In the current budget, we have not allocated any extra funding for the Trillium contract at this point in time because we have paid some up front funds to Trillium of the $326,000.
So, they still have some commitment to us for that funding.
Then maybe I should ask how much of a credit we have with them under the contract.
I don’t have the exact figure but I would get it for my minister to give to the member shortly.
I’d just like to get confirmation from the minister to provide that information to the Members of the House as soon as possible.
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Gladly, yes, I’ll do that.
I have another question I want to follow up a little bit on which is dealing with staffing and housing as my colleague was talking about earlier.
I know we have the three new regional health facilities coming up; two are open already, and the one here is hopefully going to be open in the next year.
Has the department forecasted what their staffing requirements were going to be for those facilities and provided any type of request from the department to whether it is Human Resources or the Housing Corporation for the requirements for staff housing, to go along with those facilities.
Those requirements were both sent to Human Resources as well as Housing.
Can the minister indicate when that was done, and when for each of the health facilities; I know the one here, because it’s not open yet, but there is a requirement that is not yet required, but if you look at the other two new health facilities that are already in operation, when was that request, or analysis, or needs analysis or whatever was done for staff housing requirements was sent off to HR and Housing Corporation?
I believe last year by one that I am aware of, one was submitted in the spring and then the other one was a few months later.
Was that before or after those new facilities opened up?
In the case of Iqaluit before it’s open, in the case of Cambridge Bay I think one was sent for Cambridge Bay before it was opened, and Rankin as well, wasn’t it?
Yeah, all before the facilities were opened.
Just to follow up on my colleague’s question, I am not so worried about here at the Baffin Regional Hospital yet, as it is still a year to go on that but with those other two facilities in Rankin and Cambridge Bay, how many positions can’t be filled because of lack of staff housing?
We had put in a housing request to Housing Corporation and were given some units, for instance, in Rankin Inlet so we have some housing there and as well as here and in Cambridge Bay we are working on that.
It is difficult there but right now it’s the challenge in recruiting and filling some of those jobs.
I understand what the minister is saying that they have received some staff housing allocations for those health facilities and the problem is not so much having housing but it’s recruiting those positions. To make it more clear, my question was how many positions that are at those new health facilities can’t be filled because there is no staff housing?
For the most part I don’t have the exact listing of which ones specifically, but I can say that in most regions we have the housing available, it’s the challenge of recruiting for those positions that is a challenge to us.
At the same time to be able to provide full force services when other factors are areas that we have to work on before we can run full service operations in Rankin and Cambridge Bay as an example.
One example that we have to work in parallel developing is the situation with the boarding home in order to provide more extended services in both communities so those are variables in the planning. At the same time the completions of other hospitals.
The minister indicated there are other factors that are going to cause problems in bringing those facilities up to full operation and one of them was boarding homes.
I am just wondering if she would be a little more specific as to what other factors are there in preventing those facilities from becoming fully operational.
Housing, the boarding homes, the national shortage of nurses, the national shortage of doctors, those are the challenges that we face in trying to move forward in providing full services in those two facilities.