EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
When you’re dealing with a $17 or $20 million project, that’s a huge project over a couple of years. You need the cash flow for that project, and you need to be able to get bonding insurance, and so on. Most of the smaller contractors aren’t able to do that, and that’s why, when the larger companies bid on it, they have to be inclusive on the NNI Policy.
Meaning, they actually have to have a local purchase program in place and, or labour, so that they can actually meet the NNI objectives.
If they don’t, they pay a penalty for that, and then that means there is more cost to them as a company.
So hopefully that helps answer the member’s questions on what we’re trying to do not only logistically, but administratively, and financially when we deal with capital projects in the communities.
I’m going to ring the bells because we don’t have a quorum.
We now have a quorum. Before you leave, make sure we have quorum.
We’re on G-6. Education. Detail of Capital.
Corporate Services. Mr. Tootoo.
I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the minister and his officials to Committee of the Whole.
I know that this is an event that the minister looks forward to twice a year with great earnest. He’s such a benevolent despot, that he just loves coming here, and he was telling us that this morning.
My first question on here, and it was touched on a little bit. I’ll use the example of pretty much a fiasco here at the middle school with the project delays, and that. Maybe the minister could outline what they do from their department to make sure that the project management and the capital projects that are being undertaken by the department are being done in the fashion outlined in there.
The member is correct. There were quite a few delays in the development and indeed the completed construction on the Aqsarniit School.
That’s a unique case and some of the things that came together to cause delays, and not only to construction, but also in the material ordering. In the case of the Aqsarniit School, like most projects, we would have a project manager assigned from the Community and Government Services. And, as well, at the same time we have our own staff, Tim, Mr. Innualuk, and Mr. Levy who would be following up from the Department of Education’s side.
And then, once the contract is awarded and the contract begins, it’s up to the Department of Community and Government Services, which monitors the site itself and the actual work to make sure the time lines and time frames are being kept.
And then from there, that’s being coordinated at the end through the Department of Education with their own capital planners to ensure that specifications are being met, that time lines are being met, and so on.
So there were a lot of different, almost like a comedy of errors I suppose, in the Aqsarniit School where things that were ordered never came on the ship that was supposed to have come in.
That caused some delay with some of the major components of the building itself. There were some issues with the labour on the site, not having the proper trades’ people to do proper work that they were supposed to be doing on the site itself, whether that be mechanical engineering and so on. Like I said earlier, issues with the materials arriving behind schedule.
I like to thank the minister for his response.
When you’re doing a project, does the department have any input at all into the awarding of the contract?
I know if you look in this case as the minister just mentioned you have a southern based firm that doesn’t have experience in doing work in the north. They didn’t have the materials here in time, they didn’t know how to get their, when they needed to meet deadlines to get materials here, they didn’t have the people they needed to do the job here.
To me, I look at this, we have northern contractors that know all that information or have learned from experience on how to do, you know the uniqueness of construction in the north and I guess I’m just wondering: does the department have any input at all or is it just strictly the Community and Government Services decision as to awarding of these contracts?
Hon. Ed. Picco: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The contracting or the tender for the schools or any other major facility, the government follows standard guidelines, contract guidelines that are in place throughout the government itself.
In this case, there would be a contract team in place in Community and Government Services, CGS, as well as the Department of Education, and they would review a number of factors of the project itself. The monetary consideration is one of those considerations, as well as NNI and other factors in the planning and awarding of the tender.
Standard contracting rules are applied and followed on the department’s tenders.
Maybe in this case you know that old saying you get what you pay for comes into play here.
I understand in this case that through Community and Government Services the minister himself was being informed, as late as August that everything’s going to be fine and then three weeks later, oops we’re a month and a half - two months late.
I’m just wondering how, from the capital planners and the people within the department how that could’ve happened.
We have to look at it in; I guess in construction contexts and take it from there. The member is correct the last update I had this summer was in July and at that time around July 15 or 20, according to my information that things were pretty well up to snuff and on time and on schedule and then by the end of August or around August 20, about four or five weeks later it turned out that quite a few timelines had slipped.
Now, those timelines in July and August were contingent that ship A was going to arrive with product B, and employee C would be on site to deliver that and there were some concerns with that.
Originally, the school should’ve been ready to move in with all the students after Labour Day weekend. That was the week of September 6 to 10.
There was a five-week delay before the school could be turned over.
When you look at the delay of five to seven weeks on a major construction project, that’s not really a lot, when you look at a project of this size and scope.
Again, we wanted to make sure that when the students did move into the school that it was safe to do so and we wanted to ensure that the work was up to snuff as it were.
The school is a beautiful school; it is a fantastic addition to the infrastructure in the community of Iqaluit.
And again, hopefully sometime in early December, when we do the official opening, a lot of the members and yourself will have the opportunity to see it.
So there was a delay, the delay was logistics as well as an administrative one. There were concerns again with the product coming in on time and having some of the journeyman as it were, or the craftspeople in place to be able to do the work that was being detailed.
I believe that, that would be the main major reasons for the delay.
At the same time, Mr.  Chairman, I have written the Minister responsible for Community Government and Services, Minister Brown, and asked for a review of the project, again to make sure that if there are any issues there, we can catch them now.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you Mr. Chairman, this is a, sort of confirmation for the record that the minister is now saying that a four or five week delay is no big deal.
I don’t believe that, I don’t recall those words being…passing his lips in the past; I’ll leave that one alone for now.
Under G-6, under $6.1 million that is there for capital; under small capital $300,000 or less, and minor projects, is that where the bussing funding comes from?
Just to confirm that, first of all, for the record, the member is referring to, page G - 6, which is what we’re on right now. I believe, if that’s correct, if he could clarify and the second point was on the delay.
No, I did not say for the record, it was acceptable or suitable that the school would be delayed for a five to six week period in opening.
What I suggested was, in a large program like that, that is not unusual, that is not something that you know, just occurred on this file, or is unique to this file.
And we were, like I said before, the government as well as with the co-operation from the District Education Authority and the school staff, worked their butts off to get the school running on time and it is a wonderful facility.
The amount of money there for the bussing, is $185,000 which is inclusive of the school purchases, the school bus purchase. That is right line item, the $185,000 amount on G - 6.
The minister indicated, I know he did in his opening comments, but if he could say so here again, what communities are getting busses, and how do they determine which communities get busses?
There was a note in the review by the standing committee, where they mentioned there were five communities on the list, last year, prioritized for bussing, and then somehow these communities have dropped off and five more appeared.
So I want to clarify that’s the question.
The GN-wide bussing needs identified Coral Harbour, Kimmirut, Igloolik, Clyde River, and Qikiqtarjuaq being eligible for a bus or a bus replacement.
That was in last year’s budget.
And what has occurred since then, is that Hall Beach, Chesterfield Inlet, and Gjoa Haven have come forward and been prioritized for bus or bus replacement.
And Clyde River and Qikiqtarjuaq’s bus requests were carried forward.
Coral Harbour, Igloolik, and Kimmirut have received their busses. And that’s why those three communities have dropped off that list.
So we have two from last year, and then three additional ones, put forward.
So hopefully that answers the member’s question.
I wish the minister could anticipate the questions like that more often. Have the answers already handy.
He indicated that they have a list, and like last year, as he had indicated, there were five communities on the list, and there were three that were approved through the capital appropriations.
This year there are some more communities on here, but one thing he missed in that explanation that I’m trying to get for the record is; how does the department determine eligibility on how to be prioritized, which communities should get buses?
We try to place the busses by alphabetical order.
So Arreak would be first, and then Arvaluk.
No, Mr. Chairman, in all seriousness, of course there are standards and criteria in place.
There is a policy for the busses.
Some of those contingent factors include the distance the students have from the school, where the school is located in a given community, and the distance the students have to walk, and so on. That would be one of the major factors.
Then it includes the school enrollment population in a given community, or a given school.
In some cases, Mr. Chairman, as you know, we have more than one school in a community.
So, in those cases, it depends on a given school where the busses are available. When we say a bus, again, it is contingent on what size bus the community may need. If there are a lot of students, they might get a bus with 70 or 80 students, or they might get the smaller version that we see for example, in Sanikiluaq, or one of the other communities.
So those are the types of criteria that are in place. The other criteria include, if the bus is purchased, is there a place in the community where the bus can be parked, for example, and what the operations and maintenance cost is of the bus.
Is there money available through the District Education Authority to have a qualified driver of that bus because if that bus has air brakes, and so on.
So those are other things that are put in place; the operations and maintenance costs, the storage costs, what is available right now, what’s the age of the bus that is in the community right now, and those types of things.
So all those types of standards and criteria are put in place, and then, when the request comes in from a given community, those are rated by a community basis, and with the small budget that we have, we try to allocate monies for the new bus.
I know it sounds familiar. I just had to hear it again just to be reinforced on that process.
I’m just wondering if he could indicate; when they do provide a community with a bus, is there, like in buildings where there is a life expectancy, how long does the department anticipate...I know you can’t always anticipate everything, but, how long, for planning purposes, when they’re looking at their capital plan down the road, how long do they anticipate a bus lasting in a community before it needs to be replaced?
Busses, unlike other vehicles in communities, aren’t used seven days a week and they’re only used for a couple hours a day. So we look at life expectancy of a given bus of between 10 and 12 years.
I again just wanted to have that information on the record so that we know how long before someone gets a new bus, and everyone knows how long it’s going to take them to get a new bus if they just got one.
Further down on that page, they are showing for the Nunavut Arctic College student accommodations here in Iqaluit showing prior year costs of $12,545,000. What do we get for that? I don’t recall seeing anything being done up there that we spent $12 million on.
That is an accounting issue there.
What that $12 million means is the money we received last year, as the members may remember, from the federal partner on the Nunavut Strategy money, included monies that the Cabinet had allocated to the Nunavut Trades School Project, and for that reason, student accommodations were also included.
That’s what you see there when you see the 12 from last year because that was accounted for in last year’s budget.
This year the actual construction will take place, and then Mr. Tootoo we will see the actual construction.
Again, I just want to have the minister indicate for the record, there was an announcement made earlier this year that the residence would be done this year.
And one would think by this fiscal year it would be done, that was mentioned last spring, I think it was mentioned.
And so everyone was expecting to see something happen over this construction season, and nothing did. And I know that the minister has a very good explanation for that. I would like to have him reiterate it for the record.
What had occurred on the file was that we were hoping to do at least some of the site work in this season. That meant putting the piles and so on, moving some of the materials to site, leveling off the site as well as providing fill to the site. There’s a lot of gravel fill has to go to the site itself.
However, we weren’t able to do that for this construction season, and that’s why I said in earnest this spring coming up, you’ll start to see that type of developmental work including the piles and material will be arriving and the building going up on the site in the proposed location which is adjacent and directly north of the current Q units, on Q road, on the Power Corporation hill.
Welcome, I would like to welcome the minister and his officials to witness table.
Just before we begin I note for the public record that the Nunavut Government is asking for approval from the House to spend $5.5 million next year on the new trade school.
I’d like to ask the minister if he is willing to answer questions from the members about the programs that are going to be offered to be delivered in that facility and including the facilities in Cambridge Bay and Iqaluit.
I know that Mr. Peterson’s question could be ruled out of order on this point.
I don’t want to get into a serious debate with Mr. Peterson on his question, which seems to be not only proper and good, but probably out of the context of the capital budget debate.
We’re supposed to discuss the debate on the capital and the program and services that would be delivered at a campus in a building that has not been completed yet, would fall under the O&M area.
However, if the chair would indulge the committee, and the committee felt that they should have answers to that specific question, then I could answer, so I would ask your direction on how you would like to proceed and the committee would like to proceed.
We’re on page G-6 (interpretation ends) Corporate Services.
I thank the minister for his answer, I’m not sure what he said there, but this I know: I realize this is capital estimates but you know we’re not experts about piles, foundations, plumbing in this House here. We have others experts for that.
I just felt if we are going to be asked to approve substantial capital amounts for capital projects in Nunavut, we should be able to ask for a little bit of information about the types of programs that will be offered in the facilities.
So, again, I’d ask the minister if he’s, yes or no, if he is willing to answer some general questions.
Mr. Picco, if you would like to respond you may do so.
I’d be happy to respond to the member’s question.
I just wanted to make sure that, again, usually when you’re on capital you’re talking about the capital infrastructure not the program or the classes.
That would be delivered, that’s operations and maintenance.
I can say, maybe just quickly then for the record, I will give an overview of some of the programs. When the campus is complete at the trade school in Rankin Inlet, they have several programs that will be run there.
Those include and are inclusive of construction trades, which would include carpentry, plumbing, the housing maintainer, and electrical. We’re looking at heavy equipment operator and heavy equipment technician. We’re looking at some of the other construction trades that the member would be familiar with; dry-waller for example.
We are also looking at some academic preparations for the campus there and that could be included trades access programs themselves. In the member’s community of Cambridge Bay, we are looking at the millwright program to be delivered there through the extra monies that we are putting into the facility because millwright training really ties into the trades training for mines development.
We are looking at phasing in different types of programs themselves. They would also include oil-burner mechanic and so on. So hopefully that helps answer the member’s question.
I thank the minister for that answer; I’m glad he did provide that information.
Can the minister tell us: out of the $5.5 million that you are seeking, how much of that would go towards the trades school portion in the Cambridge Bay High School?
When we announced this program under the Northern Development Strategy monies from the federal government, what we tried to do is try to target that money in the three regional centers, put the actual main campus of the trades school in Rankin Inlet, and then be able to augment and probably expedite some of the other program offerings that we could do in Iqaluit and Cambridge to make sure that we decentralize those.
In the Cambridge Bay case, over half a million dollars is currently being, is underway right now being spent in the community to facilitate the Trades Training Program to be delivered out of the facility in the Kilinik School there.
So hopefully that helps to answer the member’s question.
The minister has mentioned a couple times the Northern Strategy Funds. How much of the funding from the Northern Strategy Fund has been applied towards the total project in the three regions?
A little over $10 million, I believe, is the figure to date.
Can the minister give us an update on the progress of the Nunavut Trades School Project to date? How much has been accomplished, or has anything been accomplished in terms of construction?
I just wanted to make sure that we have the information and in the proper sequential order.
The last, as you know, this past spring, we did the announcement of the trades school being relocated into Rankin Inlet. Before that, we actually checked out several sites including the forward operating location site here in Iqaluit; it wasn’t conducive to our needs. We have a facility in Rankin Inlet, which is owned by the Government of Nunavut, and we’re spending the lion’s share of our money in actually developing that facility and fixing it up to make it into the trades school.
So, right now, we are in the project phasing of that, which means the awarding soon for the design, and so on. At the same time, as the member had just pointed out earlier in the question, we had to see what the program was going to be at the school, so we had to figure out what programs we are going to run.
Once we know that, then we can take that information, go to the project planners and design people and say: this is what we want to deliver in this given building; how do we accomplish that and how do we facilitate that.
So that is where we are with the program. We are looking at 2008-09 where we will be in a position that the actual facility would be up and running and in place at the current time frame.
At the same time, we are moving forward with new student accommodations in Rankin Inlet, which is part of the same project.
I attended the Kitikmeot Inuit Association Annual General Meeting last month in Cambridge Bay and several of the delegates expressed their unhappiness that a large trades school wasn’t going to be built in the Kitikmeot and that the government didn’t take advantage of the Lupin Mine site when it was available.
They feel that the small facility in the high school is not going to be adequate to provide all the training that will be required to enable Kitikmeot residents and other residents to participate in the mining industry in the Kitikmeot.
As I mentioned in my Member’s Statement yesterday, up to 300 underground mining positions are required in the mining sector alone.
I am wondering if the minister can comment on whether he has any long-term plans for a trade school facility in the Kitikmeot.
I had an opportunity last spring to be in the Kitikmeot and as the member knows I had a chance to tour the mine with him, the diamond mine with him just this past fall.
So I am quite aware of the issues around mining and mine training and I actually met with several of the mining corporations when I was there.
Let me say first of all, I believe the facility that we are trying to demonstrate in Cambridge will be able to handle a lot of the training that we talked about especially the Millwright program which is a mine training specific course and that is the whole idea of arranging of the facilitation and delivery of that course in Cambridge Bay.
Secondly, the Lupin mine site just was not a go. The Lupin site was abandoned.
For us to go into a community where there is no community, several hundred miles away from the nearest community and try to operate it as some kind of an outpost training centre just was not on.
Some of the internal reviews done for the KIA also pointed out some of the logistics as well as financial costs.
We thought it would be a better use of our money, the little dollars that we do have, is to try and maximize those efforts.
Rankin Inlet is central located, we have a facility there that we’ll be able to use and that is why we wanted to go forward use the facility there.
In the meantime, if there are positions that are available to be trained for mining and the mining companies come forward, then we are facilitating that through Nunavut Arctic College.
An example right now in Baker Lake, because the mine is getting ready to open and it’s gone through its permissible phases, and of course, we all know the Department of Indian and Northern Development Minister signed off on it, we trained several dozen people out of Baker Lake in Morrisburg for heavy equipment operating training, for example, on two pieces of equipment, which they have all passed and they’ve gone back to the community and they are available for work and employment.
So those are the types of things that we can do without having to actually build up a lot of infrastructure on the ground when we don’t have the dollar values to be able to do it right now.
However, delivering that Millwright Program should address a lot of the concerns that have been raised by the mining stakeholders in the region and that is the word that I received from them when I was there this past spring with the member.