EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Mr. Chairman, that concludes my opening comments on the proposed 2013-14 Capital Estimates of the Department of Justice. (interpretation) Thank you.
I would like to remind the Committee of the Whole that I will allow you to make general comments and then you will be able to ask questions on the opening comments.
Are there any general comments from the members? Mr. Ningark.
Mr. Ningark (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the minister and the chair of the committee.
On page 2 that they are 10 years behind. I think there’s about 40… . This is the overcrowding problem that persisted over the 10 years and then it is going to have problems when Bill C-10 develops.
I know that we have to be positive that we could achieve this, but the question that… . I’m not supposed to ask questions, but the minister had a meeting with the two territorial ministers.
I think they must have talked about Bill C-10 and what problems it might pose for Nunavut.
Can I ask a question on the minister’s opening remarks, Mr. Chairman?
Like I said, we will have the opportunity to ask questions when we go page by page. What I’m asking of the members is if they have any general comments. I will ask that if you could just do general comments at this time and then you can ask questions at the appropriate time, Mr. Ningark.
You have to tell me if I’m out of line; you can go ahead and do that.
I just want to get clarification if that’s okay. In the minister’s opening comments on page 2, I want to know if you will allow me to ask the question that I wanted to ask, Mr. Chairman.
The facility that is going to be built is some kind of a tent. This relief structure would cost $8.5 million.
When they first thought about doing that, they would spend about $8.5 million on those relief structures.
It states that it could probably be about $15 million.
Mr. Chairman, just for my clarification, the concern that I have is that there’s a big discrepancy between those two numbers.
There’s a difference of $6.5 million. At the beginning, it was approximately $8,575,000, and then when they did a study and estimate, they have approximately $15 million that they will be spending.
Was it because at the beginning, you did not do a very good study on this relief structure? Is that why it costs that much money and now that you have done a better study, it’s going to cost about $15 million?
I want to be part of the discussion and I would like to ask a question.
How come it went from $8.5 million to $15 million in just a few months, even though it’s the same relief structure?
I just wanted to get some general comments from the members. We’re on general comments, but I will allow you to ask questions after general comments are done.
I’m not trying to stop the discussions or questioning, but I just want to make sure that we follow the Rules of the Legislative Assembly.
Mr. Tapardjuk, general comments.
I am happy that you are at the witness table to give us some clarity on the questions that we might pose to you.
First of all, while we’re in the discussion in Committee of the Whole, we are dealing with the Department of Justice.
I think there was something written about the relief structure.
They said that the relief structure will be used for a little while and then it will be replaced.
It’s a temporary structure at this time and they will build a permanent one after.
First of all, I think we understood at the beginning when that relief structure is going to be built and then it was going to be replaced by a permanent one.
Mr. Chairman, the funding that is going to be used by the Department of Justice because it’s very expensive… .
If we have the people of Nunavut not commit too much crime, maybe it will get less expensive.
I think they should at other structures that they can build because there are a lot of people who are in jail who have committed serious offences. There are also medium and minor offences.
It seems like the Department of Justice should do more for the inmates to take them out on the land. Is it maybe because there are too many Qallunaat running the corrections?
It would be better for the inmates to have the opportunity to go out on the land. Maybe that way, they will not reoffend as often. It’s very expensive to build buildings for the inmates.
I think we have to try to look at other ways to heal the inmates.
Outpost camps are for healing and to try and make sure that the inmate doesn’t reoffend. It’s very expensive for insurance to go out on the land. That’s why they don’t want to use the outpost camps as much.
To me, the money that is going to be used for the Department of Justice for correctional purposes… . I think the Department of Justice has to try to go through other avenues to try to rehabilitate the inmates. There could be outpost camps set up to try and rehabilitate the inmates more and to try to get them back into their traditional pursuits.
At the appropriate time, I will be asking questions to the department. Those are my general comments, Mr. Chairman.
I put your name on the list for questions later.
I am very pleased to have the opportunity to provide some general comments as we begin our consideration of the 2013-14 Capital Estimates for the Department of Justice.
Mr. Chairman, the Department of Justice is requesting $8.9 million for the Baffin Correctional Centre Temporary Relief Structure. I am pleased to see that there is movement on this issue of overcrowding in our correctional facilities.
First and foremost, it should be pointed out that some of this overcrowding would be alleviated if the Department of Justice was not behind on the opening of the men’s healing facility in Rankin Inlet. This facility was scheduled to be opened over a year ago, but to date, it has not housed one inmate.
In questions raised in the House during the spring’s sitting, we were led to believe the facility was to open in September of 2012, but as previously mentioned, to date, it has housed no inmates. Perhaps the delays are due to the pent up demand of capital projects that the Minister of Finance has stated in his fiscal update.
In regard to the Baffin Correctional Facility, this facility has had chronic overcrowding as it was originally designed for 66 inmates, yet at times, it houses over 100 inmates. I have toured the Baffin Correctional Centre a number of times since becoming an MLA, and the living conditions are unacceptable.
Our inmates are overcrowded and this creates an unstable environment for the inmates, caseworkers, and correction officers.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to extend a special thank you to our caseworkers and correction officers who work in our correction facilities on a daily basis.
At times, they must feel we are not hearing their concerns and issues, but I would like to assure them that we are listening and that we appreciate the very good work they do under the conditions they have.
That is why I am happy to see movement on dealing with the issue of overcrowding through the construction of the Baffin Correctional Centre Temporary Relief Structure.
I strongly feel that people from our communities want justice matters to be dealt with closer to home, where individuals have support from family, friends, and the community.
Many MLAs have spoken on the need for supporting more on-the-land programs which allow inmates to reconnect with the land and start their journey to healing.
Mr. Chairman, I will continue to advocate for early and accurate assessment of our inmates so that they do not continue to be stuck in a cycle which sees them in and out of our correctional facilities.
The trend which we are seeing across the country and which I am sure exists in our territory is that a majority of our inmates suffer from mental health issues that have not been diagnosed early enough to have them receive the help and assistance needed to keep them from incarceration.
In continuing with this thought, I often feel the people who have become involved in the justice system need our help more and should be surrounded by the community to receive our support and attention, yet too often, we see them sent out of our communities to be locked up.
Unfortunately, from what I understand of the new federal crime legislation, Bill C-10 will add to this cycle of incarceration. That is why an emphasis on prevention will be more important to our territory.
Mr. Chairman, during the page-by-page consideration of the capital estimates for the Department of Justice, I will be asking questions regarding the men’s healing facility and the new Baffin Correctional Centre Temporary Relief Structure.
In conclusion, my constituents appreciate the work of the Department of Justice and I would like to thank them for their hard work.
At the community level, I would also like to thank and commend our local justice committees and community justice outreach workers for their hard work and dedication in providing alternate solutions for individuals in the community.
In Arctic Bay, we are pleased to finally have a probation officer to help monitor individuals on probation.
Unfortunately, this is a casual position and hopefully the hiring process will follow to have a permanent indeterminate employee.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Elliott. (interpretation ends) I have Mr. Curley.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome, minister.
I can understand the minister’s portfolio. It’s very hard to determine how we can correct the people who constantly go to the correctional facilities. We have to help them out.
I know that now by the people of Nunavut. You can commit so many crimes because this is not a part of our way. Such things as drugs and alcohol are coming into our territory in large volumes.
As a government, we have a job and there are all kinds of stuff that could be utilized to make sure that the people stay out of trouble.
There are not enough programs for people to stay out of trouble here in Nunavut.
There are so many people in the communities who don’t have a vision of a better life because they don’t have any employment and they’re depressed.
Their family ties are severed. As members, are we doing something to help those inmates or people who might get into trouble?
The reason why there is overcrowding in jails is due to the trouble that inmates get into because of lack of programs, and this is dangerous.
The concern that I have is in the minister’s opening comments, he stated that treating them as class “X” may not be adequate, but the request was made to FMB for $8.5 million.
That is unacceptable. (interpretation ends) That is not right, (interpretation) as far as we’re concerned.
If they request money for the Baffin Correctional Centre, the estimates should be far closer to the amounts for actual construction.
It’s nearly a 50 percent difference that was submitted to FMB.
Here’s my colleague concerned about the Rankin Inlet arena because of differences between substantiation sheets and that is treated as something serious.
These are not even substantiation sheets in here. There’s about a 40 or 50 percent difference in those amounts.
I think that the minister could probably work on it, go to FMB, get a better budget, and then give us the information.
We’re not just going to approve $8.9 million. Even the $15 million might not be enough.
That’s supposed to be the total cost and that’s what the Auditor General usually wants, an accurate figure.
I’m not exactly sure what we’re going to be approving. He mentions the $8.9 million in his opening comments under the third paragraph. Are we going to approve the $15 million?
It’s kind of confusing. I want a more accurate figure.
Mr. Chairman, those are the types of questions I will be asking when we get to the appropriate pages in the capital estimates. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Curley. Last on my list is Ms. Ugyuk.
On page 2 of the minister’s opening comments, the minister stated, “The Rankin Inlet Healing Facility will add an additional 48 beds.” There are about 50 inmates that are outside of Nunavut. In the Baffin Correctional Centre, there are about 54 or 34 more people who are in there, which creates overcrowding.
They’re already overcrowded in there.
I would like to ask the minister… . There are maximum-security, medium-security, and low-risk offenders. There are three different types of offenders who are housed in the facilities.
Have you thought about those inmates who will be housed in a maximum-security facility in Nunavut? Have you been thinking about opening a maximum-security facility?
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Ms. Ugyuk. I would like to give you equal opportunity. You will be able to ask questions on the opening comments at the appropriate time.
I will add you to the list. We’re on general comments at this time. Mr. Oshutapik.
I have some comments to make regarding the minister’s opening remarks.
There are things that we have to do while we’re looking after our inmates.
In Nunavut, there has been a lot of criminal activity that we hear and we don’t have any plans in place. Not just for the Department of Justice, but there are also things that we can do to help each other to make sure that the inmates do not reoffend.
Even if they don’t want to reoffend, they do.
They have problems in their life. That’s why they go to jail. Due to this, it’s going to be continuing.
The young people who are our future, we have to fix something for them. There are a lot of things that we can do for our young people, instead of spending their time in jail.
There are no programs to ensure that people don’t end up going to jail. You can see it, even though it’s not part of their job.
You have to counsel them in a traditional way. It’s not included in the Department of Justice.
Maybe they wouldn’t reoffend as much if we could use the traditional way of healing people.
There are no programs in place to counsel people who might reoffend. We can tell them to have a better life. You will have a better life if you do this and that, and we won’t have to spend as much money.
It’s not just for young people, but anyone can make a mistake. We can go to jail too, not just the young people.
We think about young people when we talk about jail facilities.
Sometimes you don’t think about the problems that we have. There should be programs in place to help people from trying to stay in jail.
I will have some questions after, and these are my general comments at this time.
For your information, I will begin with the people who had questions to the minister.
We will start with page C-3 under Directorate. Total Capital Expenditures. $400,000.
I will allow the members who had questions on the opening comments to start off first.
The first person who wanted to ask questions is Mr. Ningark.
Mr. Ningark (interpretation): Thank you for recognizing me.
We don’t want our constituents in Nunavut and in Canada to misunderstand us, but because crime is very high in Nunavut, there is violence in the homes.
It cannot happen too much anymore because of Bill C-10. Yes, we agree with the federal government. We want to be able to punish or to put people who involve themselves in criminal activities in jail.
The minister stated that there’s not enough room in the correctional facilities. Yes, we have to help out because it’s too much for the staff that work in those facilities to have that many inmates.
As well, there’s a lot of overcrowding in private homes. That’s part of what happens, people getting into criminal activities, not just in the homes, but also in the recreational facilities.
Mr. Minister, you stated that there’s overcrowding in the facilities in Nunavut.
Also, when Bill C-10 passes, it’s going to get worse. When you had a meeting with the Yukon and the NWT ministers of justice, did you ask the federal government… ? At that meeting, did you want to work with the federal government and did you ask for more funding for those facilities?
Hon. Daniel Shewchuk: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Ningark, for the question.
First of all, I would like to say, in listening to the opening comments, that I really feel and see the genuine concern about offenders and inmates that we have in the territory.
I also would like to touch on something that I think is very important to all of this and actually the key to all of this is crime prevention and keeping people from going to these facilities in the first place. I think everybody has touched on that and said that. Again, that is the responsibility of all of us as parents, community members, government, the RCMP involved, and us as the justice system and in the corrections program we offer to rehabilitate people not to come back there.
The first thing is to try and not have them going there in the first place.
If I have a message to send across Nunavut, that would be the message. We all have a role to play. We need to support young people and all people who have whether it’s mental illness or any other type of illness or issues, that we be there for them and talk to them and help them as much as we can before they get into trouble.
In regard to your question, meeting with the other ministers, recently, we had meetings in the Yukon. The federal government wasn’t at those meetings, but my territorial counterparts were.
At the last federal meeting I was at with FPTs, absolutely, we voiced our concern about our issues and challenges with corrections to the federal government.
We’re up-keeping and that dialogue is ongoing continually for them to assist us in our situation and challenges that we have.
The Yukon and the NWT are not in the same situation at all that we are in. When I was in the Yukon, I toured their new corrections centre. It’s state-of-the-art, brand new, they built it with a long-term view in mind, and they have plenty of space, even to handle the increase in inmates due to Bill C-10.
The Northwest Territories is in the same situation. They have lots of room to handle whatever they perceive happening. Here in Nunavut, we are not, not at all.
This initiative that we’re going forward with and asking for your support is at a critical stage.
What’s at stake here is the safety and well-being of the people we have in our systems.
Mr. Chairman, it is a very serious state that we’re at.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Shewchuk. (interpretation ends) For the benefit of members, (interpretation) we were making the list of members who would like to ask questions in the order that the members raised their hand.
Mr. Enook, you now have the floor.
So that I’m understood, as Members of the Legislative Assembly, the Nunavut government and Nunavummiut, it is obvious that we have to come to some kind of an agreement to make sure that the correctional system is in place and we have to keep that dialogue open to make sure the safety issues are included.
When we first heard about that temporary shelter, we were opposed to it, but if there’s a possibility that it can be used in the future for some type of program, should a new structure be built, then that would be perfectly fine.
Mr. Chairman, my question for further clarity and if it can help further support the project, there’s the $8.5 million that we were talking about and it looks like it’s going to be increased up to $15 million. There’s also the operations and maintenance. I would just like to know how or why it increased so dramatically.
It’s not that I’m opposed to it; I just want to know the reasoning behind it or what happened in there.
Hon. Daniel Shewchuk: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank Mr. Enook for that question because it’s a very important and valid question.
In fact, I had the same question when we came forward with this.
As you well know, this has come with some urgency and expediently to the standing committee and through the capital process.
We needed a class “X” estimate to get this on this year’s capital planning process. That class “X” estimate was just that. I can say it was a quick estimate by square footage of the building that it would cost to put up.
There needs to be a lot more input and work put into it than that, though.
There needed to be, first of all, going ahead with the planning and design, and then, “What do you need in this structure?”
You need security. You need cells. You need specific rooms for medical care, for all of these things after that got incorporated into the planning and design, so the price is going up.
When this was put on the capital plan, all we had was a class “X.” When I went to the standing committee to report to the standing committee, we had a class “C,” which has much more detail. At that point in time, we estimated approximately $13.2 million.
When we have a class “A” estimate, we are saying here today it will not be over $15 million; it might be substantially less than $15 million.
Right now, we are sitting at a class “C” estimate. By the end of November, we will have a class “B” estimate, which is going to need to be refined out even further and we will have an actual cost.
If I can just add into this, what Mr. Curley said earlier about what we are approving here, we are here approving the $8.5 million. There is no question. That’s what’s on the books.
What I am prepared to do as the minister, and I wanted to do in the honour of openness and transparency, is let all members know exactly what the cost of this structure is going to be and what it’s going to cost to operate so that we all know in advance. That’s what I’m proposing today.
You will know that we will be back in the winter sitting with a supplemental bill for approximately $6 million. You will know that that’s going to be coming if we get approval for this.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Shewchuk. The third name on my list is Mr. Tapardjuk and then Mr. Curley will be next.
Mr. Tapardjuk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are we on pages C-3 and C-4 or are we in Corrections already? We keep referring back to the correctional issue, Mr. Chairman.
In the general comments, there were some individuals who wanted to ask questions along the correctional line. Once we’re done with that, we will move on to C-4. Right now, the floor is open for questions and we are on page C-3.
Directorate. Mr. Tapardjuk.
Mr. Tapardjuk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There’s a breakdown here totalling $300,000.
It states here that they are looking at purchasing some vehicles. How many vehicles are we talking about? How many vehicles do they have now?
So they’re requesting an additional two vehicles. It’s $32,000 for the community residential centre. Could the minister respond to my question and why they’re requesting a vehicle?
The next question is: how many vehicles are in usage right now? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Tapardjuk. Minister Shewchuk.
Hon. Daniel Shewchuk: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we are replacing vehicles. I’ll let J.P. add more detail on where they are and whatnot.
There are many vehicles in the Department of Justice. I think it’s a replacement for five vehicles. Vehicles in our operation in justice are replaced every five to seven years because of the usage, mileage, and weather that they have to endure to get through.
As a fleet of vehicles, I don’t have that in front me, but I did write a letter to the chair of the standing committee very recently with an inventory of all justice vehicles. I don’t know if the chair got that yet or not, but I supplied that information to the standing committee very recently. J.P. can maybe expand more on that, if you would like, J.P.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Shewchuk. Mr. Deroy.
Mr. Deroy: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a full inventory of our vehicles over here.
The reason we’re showing so many vehicles on this sheet is because we use the small capital to repair and update some of our buildings.
We have many buildings, more and more buildings across the territory right now, and we try to catch up. $400,000 seems to be a lot of money, but when you have so many buildings, it’s expensive to operate and the use of it.
This here, we focused a little more on vehicles because some of these vehicles, although we have a policy of replacing the vehicles every five to six years, some of these vehicles are 10 to 15 years and they are more expensive to fix currently than it is to buy something new.