EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Where one is taking place in Pangnirtung because of the facility, and also for Arviat and Gjoa Haven.
How do the pilot projects differ from the current practices?
Hon. Peter Kilabuk: Mr. Chairman.
I would like my Deputy to take that question from this.
Chairman: Proceed, Mr. Rich.
Actually at this point in time because the group is still actively working on it we have a group of three senior administrative officials from the communities and representatives from the Housing Corporation in CGS who are actively developing that plan and they have not presented the details to me.
So I am not a hundred percent certain how it is going to differ from the existing one.
What I can say though is that I know what discussions I have had with the individual who is leading up the work is we are particularly concerned about some of the additional O&M costs that have come up over the years, and what the factors are that influence the operating and maintenance costs of the systems.
Also to make sure that we have a system that works in different environments.
We have now in one case we Mechanical Treatment Plants, for instance, for sewage in another community we now have a Mechanical Treatment Plant for water.
What we need to look at is what the influence of that is on the costs.
Our preliminary issues in dealing with both of those two communities are that it will increase the O&M costs, so the formula needs to properly reflect that.
In addition to that, we have looked at some of the historic practices with water and sewage delivery in communities and we are factoring that into it and making sure that the practices represent good current practices in delivery of water and pickup of waste water.
Chairman: Thank you Mr. Rich.
I appreciate the Minister and Mr. Rich’s comments at the complicated area.
I did not have it figured out in four years when I was Mayor, so I can appreciate the work you guys are putting into it.
It is very important work though; I think a lot of it contributes to some of our deficit problems.
I wanted to go to page J-9, in the Government Asset and Protection Program and your putting a million dollars into that again this year.
When I worked for the Nunavut Association of Municipalities and NAMEX, one of the things we learned is that the many asset in the hamlets were under valued, we called it loss control.
I believe there under valued, so if they had building that suffered damages, the insurance wouldn’t cover it, the complete replacement of the asset, so on one end, the minister Mr. Rich would call it whether all our community buildings are properly valued are appraised by property evaluators.
Mr. Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Peterson.
The insurance people have been looking at these buildings and as to how much it actually cost and what the insurance will be, and that’s what the process we use.
Mr. Chairman: Mr. Peterson your time is up at the moment, but I have no more names on the list if you want to proceed. I’ll give you a few more minutes.
In the current fiscal year have we suffered any major losses to the hamlet assets?
Mr. Chairman: Thank you Mr. Peterson.
No, not this year.
Mr. Chairman: Fire away Peterson.
Since the inception of the NAMEX Program has there been any success, is it going to be a continuing ongoing success?
Yes, we have been very pleased with the program and we have nothing but high hopes for its continued success for the future.
And thank you Mr. Minister.
That’s good to hear, something we needed.
I’m not sure where this falls in your Main Estimates here, but Search and Rescue, maybe it’s under Community Support.
Who is responsible for Search and Rescue?
I know that you mentioned in your Business Plans under J-24, so the work you’re going to do with it, but is it Community and Government Services, or does it fall under hamlet council in the community?
We do provide funding and assistance to through our programs.
That falls under the Protection Services category under our department and that will be in J-12, Mr. Chairman.
I’ll just wait till we get there then.
This Community Development Funds, $1,050,000.
It says to provide a reasonable amount of funding to communities to be used for locally determined administrative projects.
I’m just wondering if the minister could elaborate on what types of projects those are.
Mr. Chairman: Thank you Mr. Tootoo.
(Interpretation): I apologize, I did not find the page right away, but in regards to the Community Development Funds, it goes through MTO, so that’s where the projects are used and on top of that, they are used for training purposes.
Mr. Chairman: Mr. Tootoo.
Is this funding provided to the communities as when they apply for it, type situations?
Yes, MTO and also the hamlet will determine the types of training, but there are no fixed amounts per say per community under this program.
It is a reasonable amount of funding, who’s interpretation of reasonable is it.
Is there a criteria or guideline that limits the amount that goes out there or just whatever whoever feels is reasonable at the time.
I guess in saying reasonable, there is $10 thousand that is set aside for each municipality under this and I guess that’s what we mean by reasonable amount.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. $10 thousand for each community.
Like, Iqaluit gets $10 thousand allocated to use to train employees in different areas through some of the courses that are offered by the MTO which we got lovely pamphlet tabled earlier on.
Yes, I’m going to get Mr. Rich to relieve me for a few seconds of fresh air.
I’ll pass it onto Mr. Rich.
Mr. Rich go ahead.
There has been a change in the community development funds over the last couple of years.
Originally this was the primary source of funding for training in communities and it was allocated on an application basis by communities.
However with the creation of the MTO two years ago, we took a portion of the community development fund and used that as the base or the core funding for the MTO and then the MTO uses that to then attract other sources of funding from the Federal Government, Inuit organizations etc.
It has been extremely successful in doing that.
So we have a huge multiplier affect.
So, what’s happened is a fairly small training fund has now become in fact well over one $1 million training fund that we administer through the MTO.
We did leave a small amount of funding, the $1 million you see here in the community development fund because communities said they still wanted a fund to draw on for some special activities.
So, this is not for that sort key fundamental training that the MTO does.
That’s all budgeted through the MTO and is shown in the amount that’s shown elsewhere in the budget for the MTO contribution.
We’ve had endless discussions with the communities about an allocation formula and tried to get a consensus of which there was none.
So we did the straight, as the Minister said allocation of $10 thousand per community.
What communities use this for is some specialized training that is not provided for the MTO.
Sometimes for their staff to attend conferences that are particularly relevant to the community and they serve a professional development fund for the community, those sorts of activities.
Chairman: Are you done.
J-6, Community and Government Services, Branch Summary.
Community support, total operations and maintenance, $49 million 71 thousand.
Some members: agreed.
Go over to J-10.
Mr. Chairman, under J-10, government services, there is a grants and contributions for $500 thousand and it’s for the Qulliq Energy Corporation transition contribution.
I’m just wondering if that transition that’s identified here is the transition that the Minister of Energy indicated wasn’t going to happen, that it had been postponed for another year.
Mr. Tootoo (interpretation): I’m done.
Chairman: I have Mr. Peterson next on the list.
On Page J-10, property services, I wonder if the Minister could give us an indication of what the value of all government buildings are in Nunavut.
I do not believe we have the information that my colleague is looking for at this time.
Mr. Peterson: That’s all the questions I have at this time, Mr. Chairman.
I believe that it is quite important that there is a government policy to establish new corporation and what not that there is proper plan.
There is a plan of action.
There is a planning document.
For two years now, we have not had the planning document for various corporations that ultimately would have to earn income through selling products.
Many of us are not convinced that the item that was included in last year’s spending in the amount of $500 thousand was not fully justified, nor urgent.
We have urged the Minister to consult with the private sector on whether or not there are other means of rearranging and restructuring the supply of petroleum products in order to establish a stable sustainable fuel system.
We’re not convinced.
Many of us are not fully convinced that the government crown agency is the way to go because ultimately they would have to be concentrated into one location in order to make it profitable.
It would have be profitable.
It could not be completely, continually subsidized by the government.
I believe the Petroleum Product Division as they are in place have worked.
Kitikmeot Region has no problem with the way in which the fuel is delivered to their region.
I think many respects, the Baffin Region is doing quite well with the Petroleum Product Division groups.
Where ever they are based, they are doing fine.
It’s the supplier that we’re having problems with.
So, Mr. Chairman, I think we are setting a precedence that the government will establish a crown corporation and has now spent $500 thousand last year and now they’re asking for $500 thousand more without a report.
Without a detailed plan.
Without a vision.
Buying and supplying fuel is an expensive huge undertaking.
It should be well planned.
It should be well presented to the public.
The government has failed for two fiscal years in scoping out its objective.
For reason, Mr. Chairman, I would like to move the following motion:
Committee Motion 004 – 2(2): Delete $500,000 From 2005-06 Main Estimates – Department of Community and Government Services
I move that $500,000 be deleted from this 2005/06 main estimates of the Department of Community and Government Services under contributions, government services branch for the purpose of Qulliq Energy Corporation transition contribution.
Before we proceed with the debate on the motion I have a few comments to make as to the procedures.
Every member has the right to speak once to the motion for a total time of 20minutes.
The mover of the motion must speak first
The mover of the motion has the right to the last reply which closes the debate
To the motion. Mr. Curley.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): I thank you and to make sure the message goes across, I am not opposed to the Petroleum Product Division.
I think that if we’re going to set up a crown corporation that is going, with the majority shareholder being the government, if I use the Kitikmeot Region as an example, I think they’re doing perfectly fine.
I think that it should be privatized.
In the Kivalliq Region, the Province of Manitoba is very close.
I believe that the crown corporation is not the only avenue that we can use.
These crown corporations have to generate revenue.
For the information of the government and to the public, we’re not opposing you but I think there are other options that we can use.
We talk to the private sector and we have to consult with the communities.
For myself, if you go through a consultation process, you meet with the stake holders, the government and the private sector.
The government hasn’t done this to date.
(interpretation ends) In my opening comments, I refer specifically to Qulliq Energy Transition contribution and the fact that it is not clear for the reasons I stated earlier what the funding will be used for. During the debate last year on 2004/05 budget, the assembly approved a $500 thousand contribution for Qulliq Energy Corporation transition.
It is my understanding that this funding was spent and yet the transition did not subsequently occur.
It was delayed.
Given the fact that $500 thousand that has already been spent in 2004/05 for transition, I believe that is important to carefully consider the wisdom of approving yet another $500 thousand in 2005/06 for a total of $1 million for a transition that may or may not take place.
Mr. Chairman, this assembly has never deleted a budget item before.
This is no longer a rubber stamp legislature.
Mr. Chairman, the standing committee has considerable concerns with respect to the transition of petroleum products division to the Qulliq Energy Corporation.
During our meeting, this winter, the staff of the Petroleum Product Division indicated that the $500 thousand was spent in part for acquiring new computer systems and so on.
Those concerns led me to believe that the transition may continue to be deferred year by year rather than being cancelled all together and outright.
Mr. Chairman, it would be unworthy of the public’s trust for us to approve a contribution for this transition when it is not clear that the transition will occur.
For that reason I ask all the members including the Ministers to support me in this motion and I would like to state again that this is not an opposition for government’s attempt to find the best possible route for engaging in a long term Petroleum Product Division.
I believe that this route is a short sighted one.
It does not give the private sector an opportunity to make a presentation because in the long run, if the Qulliq Energy Corporation were formed, it will ultimately have to make a profit.
If it’s not going to operate as a non-profitable group, that would not be wise.
It would have to pay itself through the kind of prices that we’re looking at all over the world.
I believe the Petroleum Product Division has track record now.
We should allow Petroleum Product Division as they are to operate with the current system.
So I’m asking for your support with my motion.
We have been looking at this for a long time and we’re all concerned.
Part of the Petroleum Product that we’re receiving is a concern by the public.
We want to be open and we’re trying to support our constituents and trying to look for the cheapest way.
We’re trying to have the best price for petroleum.
What we are trying to do is trying to put them together, and it’s starting to get cheaper.
Last year, we used $350,000 to purchase computers in the Rankin Inlet offices because their computer was no longer in effect as of December.
We brought out another legislation in regards to petroleum products, especially the tank farms.
We want to be open to the members, and in the coming years, we would like to also review how we can save money in regards to petroleum products and energy.
If they have to be put together or if they have to consolidate them or not, we want to review that, especially when it’s in regards to tank farms, and we want this to go ahead.
We are open to the members.
When we vote on the motion, I would like to see a recorded vote.
I have been concerned about this $500,000.
I first saw it last year, I supported it last year in good faith thinking that it would need to establish sort of a system that would bring cheaper fuel to Nunavut.
Since then, as Member of the Legislative Assembly, I have seen that the government has had loads of problems with the Qulliq Energy Corporation, we have talked about that two or three times in the Session.
We have more recently learned that we have got a lot of problems at the Nunavut Arctic College.
We are struggling to get those two crown agencies up and running back on a good footing.
As Member of the Legislative Assembly, I have not seen or read anything that clearly articulates to me and my constituents the benefits for the transfer of Petroleum Products Division to the Qulliq Energy Corporation, and I agree with my colleague of Rankin Inlet that from what I can see, Petroleum Products Division is doing a fine job now.
It’s doing a good job in the Kitikmeot.
I have not heard any concerns there.
We did provide the $500,000 last year.
All I have seen are opposite to the results I expected where they spend a lot of money on computers and other stuff.
We heard recently by the minister that it all can happen this year to lay it on another year.
I think as Members of the Legislative Assembly it would be questionable, perhaps even responsible to approve additional $500,000 of public monies without any real evidence or concrete information that doing so would provide solid benefits to Nunavutmiut.
Mr. Chairman, I will be voting in support of the motion. Thank you.
The mover of the motion, Mr. Tootoo.
I couldn’t agree more with my other two colleagues on this side of the House.
It said in regards to this, I know the Minister of Energy, and has quoted probably looked back it’s two or three time in Hansard in the last couple of weeks that’s saying to this transfer that it is not going to happen, I think it was the exact words that he used.
They say it has been delayed another year, regardless of whether this model is one that is going to be pursued or not.
Right now, we don’t know, and the government has said; we don’t know, we are going to delay, we are going to look at it for another year.
I am absolutely certain that if some evidence is provided to the House that shows that this is the direction that we are going to take and here’s why. This is what the benefits are going to be, whether it is this proposed direction or a different direction that at the appropriate time that members would have no problems supporting any appropriations in next year’s budget, if that is when it is going to happen.
Like the minister said if it isn’t going to happen, then why do they need that money this year?
I think that there are a tremendous amount of other needs out there that that funding could be used for.
It is a drop in the bucket really if you look at the overall budget.
A little bit of money for some organizations or some groups or some services can go a heck of a long way to helping other people, other Nunavutmiut that are in areas that need help right now.
Once we have some concrete evidence in front of us; to show that this is the direction that we are going to go; I don’t think that we as Members of the Legislative Assembly would be doing our job properly if we are just saying yes just go ahead and spend this money, whether or not we don’t know if that is going to happen or not.
Like I said, if we know it is going to happen, I am sure that there is no problem getting the support to have that money in the budget, if we know it is something that we see is going to happen.
Right now that isn’t going to happen in this fiscal year.
I don’t see why it is necessary to have that funding in there.
They just got new computers in the last fiscal year; that should at least do them until next year.
If that is the direction that this government decides to go in that area and then we look forward to them bringing something solid back to the table for the Members of the Legislative Assembly to look at and make an informed decision when dealing with allocations of funding.
So with that, I support my colleagues with their comments and we will be asking all members, urging them to support the motion.
I just want to say that I am happy that a recorded vote has been called for.
I would also like to welcome back the Minister of Human Resources, who had a miraculous recovery from his illness that we were reported to this morning that earlier this afternoon that he wouldn’t be in the House due to illness.
I am glad that he is feeling better and is able to make it back into the House.
I would like to speak to the motion as well.
The Qulliq Energy Corporation, as everybody knows, when we just became members of this House, but as far as I can understand I thought last year when we voted on giving them a contribution of $500,000 that they would be doing a transition.
Also after that not all corporations but some hamlets, and Arctic College and the Nunavut Power Corporation is always short of money.
We have not really heard them asking for some contributions and them receiving contributions right away.
We have not heard that.
But now the Qulliq Energy Corporation has not even requested that funding and then they are giving them the $500,000.
I don’t really understand whether Qulliq Energy Corporation is going to replace Petroleum Products Division, but we haven’t really understood how it is going to be done.
There is no plan in place, although there was at the beginning.
I know perhaps in the future the transition will happen, but we’re not really quite clear and we have not consulted with the public or asked the public as to what they would be doing in this regard.
Such as there’s been a lot of companies out there dealing with petroleum products that’s probably looking at Nunavut.
So for these reasons it seems like PPD will not be, Qulliq Energy Corporation will not take over PPD right away, it seems like according to the information that we have been given.
So what we don’t want to do is just give the contribution of $500,000 for the transition for the Qulliq Energy Corporation.
I know that they are constituents out there, are serious about the money, like they have to pay taxes and it’s not very fun if you’re going have to pay money into taxes.
Like we can’t just sort of play around with money, and have no explanation whatsoever as to how it’s going to be used.
As a Government of Nunavut, we were told that we were going to be closer to the people and inform the people of Nunavut, and there will be transparency I’m trying to understand this very well but there’s no reasoning.
I understand a little bit about finances and the Main Estimates but they have not given us any reason, good reason, that they’re going to use this for transition purposes.
We have not seen any good reasons behind that, and what exactly the money is going to be used for, we would like to be working with the Cabinet, with all the good reasons and plans in place, so I feel that at this time I will support the motion.
What I talked about earlier in the House was about I would like to be in support of the motion, to delete that contribution, because we have to start thinking about our constituents, I will be supporting the motion, because as I stated before, the reasons that I had behind supporting the motion.
We can’t just look ahead, we have to look at the constituents as well, and support our communities.
What I’m saying is it’s the same as the other members have stated for that $500,000, if there is nothing that says what it’s going to be used for.
Because of that we have to consult with the public, and there’s no information to the public on what it’s going to be used for.
So I just want the members to know I will be supporting the motion.
Hon. Ed Picco: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It gives me an opportunity to address the motion.
Just very quickly, I think the members have probably hit a good point and that is the explanation on some of the costs associated with the money.
To go back to some of the other comments that have been said, when we reviewed some of the issues around the Qulliq Fuel Corporation, we agreed with the members.
The members came forward with a recommendation from the Standing Committee and said to the Cabinet to put the Qulliq Fuel Corporation on hold until the financial viability of the Power Corporation was met.
That was recommendation number 8 of the Standing Committee.
So we did that.
That’s the reason why the postponement occurred, number 1.
Number 2, some of the reasons and Mr. Kattuk just hit a couple of them just now, he said there hasn’t been a good explanation on what the $500,000 would be used for.
Mr. Chairman, it is my understanding again by reviewing what has occurred and looking at the Business Plan, the money whether we voted right now will have be found to look at the remediation about 19 sites that have some environmental issues on them.
It is, Mr. Curley.
It also, Mr. Chairman, if I may, looks at the evaluations of the tank farms itself.
That’s what the evaluations would be done again independent of government.