EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Usually the Hamlet decides what they want done and prioritize and we serve them as best we can and give them the information for a specific project.
We may recommend something but it may not be their priority.
That’s what I was saying. I’ll just ask the member to repeat his question again because I lost it.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I was just wondering, the minister indicated that the department is a service department for the other departments and it handles all the project management.
But at what point is a project turned over to Public Works from a client department.
I will be very brief with this answer.
When a client department identifies a project, a renovation or any type of project, it always consults with Public Works as far as the feasibility, as far as the approximate pricing and everything else.
The client develops, with the help of Public Works, terms of reference, which leads to a project brief.
When the project brief is approved and signed by the client, at that point in time it goes into the hands of Public Works for project management.
Public Works will arrange a design to be done.
We will arrange any work in the preliminary testing or any other information that is needed for the project to be delivered and completed and then we will go through the tender, construction, warranty and turn over the keys to the client departments.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you Mr. Chairman. So Mr. Mrazek, if I understand correctly, if any department wants something they say this is what they want, they go to you for a design, or they go to Public Works for the design of whatever it is, whether it be a nursing station or a school or something like that. That design is solicited through Public Works.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Tootoo. Mr. Mrazek.
Mr. Mrazek: That is correct Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, in light of this are there any standards and criteria that the department uses in determining the design or the costs of any facility or any project that they are doing.
Yes, in many cases the design guidelines and criteria are set mainly for the Department of Education and the Community Government & Transportation and the municipal buildings and municipal services.
The other departments, because the amount of the capital work is minimal, there is no point and there was no time to set up any guidelines yet.
Mr. Chairman, maybe I will just ask the officials what the criteria are.
Say for example for the Department of Education for schools, what are the criteria and standards that are used in the design.
Mr. Mrazek: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Design criteria are specific to the program.
I cannot answer specific questions that Mr. Tootoo is asking.
Also the other consideration for any project is that the consultation with the community is always done and it is a very important part of the project approval process.
Even if you have the guidelines and criteria there may be some small deviation from that point because the community wishes will have to be respected if technically and financially possible.
Mr. Chairman, I would ask at what point would these types of considerations be determined if they are technically or financially possible and who would determine that.
In answer to this question, this is a joint work between the client and Public Works and also the community representatives.
So there is no simple answer to that question.
I think the minister would like to make a further comment.
I just want to elaborate.
I think everyone is aware that we consult with the community when we are going to be building a community school as to what kind of school they would like to get.
I think everyone is aware that we would like to do everything that the communities please.
We would like to see the Inuit way of life being used.
For example the way they make the kitchens today in a modern home, an Inuk person cannot use that kitchen to prepare skins.
So therefore the needs of Inuit are unique.
So therefore if we are going to be building to reflect the Inuit way of life we should consider the Inuit way of life and we have to consult with the communities especially if we are going to build a new building.
Especially since we are all aware that we have to start teaching our way of life.
Although I have already stated that we only have tanneries, if we want them outside of the schools we would like to see a place where we can prepare the skins traditionally.
We try to reflect those and we consult with the communities because we have different lifestyles.
If we are allotted a square house there is no room to equip it for the Inuit lifestyle so therefore when we do the drawings we have to include the Inuit way of life.
Chairperson (Interpretation): Thank you Madame Minister.
Any other comments or questions.
We were on the department and it has gone passed again.
So let us not forget the time.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am fully aware of the time and I think every member has a right to ask questions and I would appreciate it if I was given the opportunity to do that without having comments made all the time about what time it is.
Mr. Chairman, we were talking about a school for example and the minister went to a house.
I understand and I know for houses that there are pretty much standard designs that are out there that have been adapted to meet the environment and the needs of the people of Nunavut in the north.
Would it be possible to do the same type of thing for schools or nursing stations where you have a standard design that could be used wherever such a facility is going based on size or something like that.
It just seems to me that it would save, in the case this year there was 1.6 million costs in architectural fees.
That could save us money down the road if we had a standard design for schools and nursing stations and things like that.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Tootoo. If you would like to respond, Madame Minister.
Hon. Manitok Thompson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Chairman. I will allow Mr. Mrazek to respond.
But first of all I would like to say that the communities, we have to consider the communities first, they are the ones that are going to be using those.
So I believe that we want to be close to the people.
I understand that fact and I know that it is expensive to get the architects and engineers to draw up a design, but I do not want you to forget the communities.
We want to work with the communities on any kind of project so we are trying to find out where the communities are coming from.
I will let Mr. Mrazek answer to the architectural designs.
Mr. Mrazek if you would like to respond.
You have to recognize that every community is different.
Even if you have the same type of schools in every community it would be probably quite difficult to make them identical.
We have tried over the last couple of years to do some standard designs in the small airport terminal buildings through Nunavut.
The reason for that is that the program was identical, the criteria was identical and basically we didn’t have any problem regarding the site location because usually the airport is a flat piece of land as you know so even the foundation didn’t vary from each other.
We have never been involved in building new health centres.
There may be some possibilities regarding standards there because the program may not be differentiated from one community to another.
That has never been tested yet.
There is something to remember that if you are using one design and you multiply the number of the buildings.
For example you build one airport building and you put the same design in different communities, you have a legal obligation to pay the architect his fee, which depending on the number of the uses, the first and second use is roughly 25 or 35% plus disbursements.
So you are saving a little bit here but the main thing you are saving is the time.
So hopefully that answers your question.
Mr. Chairman, I realize that every place is unique and we can’t always do the same but in most cases there would only be some minor adjustments that would have to be made.
Given that and I don’t argue with the fact that community is important, I think it is as well.
But how much does it cost, is there at all a limit, or what are your actual costs of holding those meetings, even if it was just a percentage wise as to the extra costs of meeting the community needs beyond the standards.
Is there any such number available that is used.
Community consultation on any project is extremely important.
We advise all the consultants that this is an extremely important exercise.
As far as the costing it is usually travel time and there could be a daily fee from the consultants.
So we are not talking about a large amount of money.
I am going to have another member speak for a minute Mr. Tootoo because there are other speakers.
I just have two or three questions.
Following up on standard design.
I haven’t travelled extensively around Nunavut but I am thinking about the elementary school in Arviat, the elementary school in Rankin, the elementary school in Repulse Bay, the elementary school in Baker.
They seem to be of the same design concept. A typical elementary school.
They serve the communities really well.
I have gone through them myself and I have been involved in community consultations myself as a board member.
The same elementary school we built in Arviat, we built it in Rankin Inlet with a few minor changes, and like I say I have been involved in community consultations myself on schools.
People’s main concerns are gyms, because in most communities, the gym is a meeting and gathering place, the community halls are all too small now we keep hearing that.
But the gym is an emergency shelter because it has it’s own generating plant.
Over in the Keewatin we have had instances where the power has gone off for two or three days at a time and we have had to use these facilities as a place to gather.
I do not think there notion out there that we don’t need larger gyms because the communities are doubling and tripling in the last ten or fifteen years.
But when you say that we have a standard school package with a few modifications, and the cost in each community is a bit different but it is all in the same ballpark because the contractors are getting a little hungrier for work.
So you are saying if we use a standard design in a community for 300 hundred students and we built that unit again where the terrain is the same and stuff like that, we have to pay those architectural fees again.
So if it is a 10 million dollar school in community A and we built the same school again in community B, we have to pay those architects, and they are pretty well the same units, we have to pay those architects costs again.
For a repeated design there is not another 100% fee but there is a portion that runs between starting at 25% and up and the more the building is used the fee for the repeated design varies very slightly.
That’s according to the architectural act and it is a legal requirement because the government does not own the design.
The architect or the consultant owns the design.
There have been several court cases and they have always gone in favour of the consultant.
So it has been proven before that and it is a reality of life.
That’s an education for me this afternoon.
So no matter what we do you are still going to have those fees based on the costs of the project.
So the architect’s fees if I am correct vary between 5 and 10%.
Am I correct in saying that it does not matter what the design looks like. Thank you.
There are possibly some small deviations and I would like to briefly explain that.
If you are building a hanger that has four walls and one door, maybe some windows, the fee for design may be 4%.
If you are building the same building with many architectural features a very complex design, your fee is going to go up.
It is on a scale regarding the complexity.
So a more complex building, I would use a hospital for an example, it has an extremely complex design compared to a community hall.
Using those two examples, the fee would vary drastically maybe a 1 to 2 ratio.
The fee is based on the actual construction costs.
We are not talking about airplane hangers here Ross, we don’t build any of those yet I hope.
We are talking about schools.
That is precisely what we are talking about.
The thing about this is I have been involved in community consultations and there is an approximate budget put forward on a project.
When you have your designers coming in from Public Works and you get people into a meeting, 20 or 30 people into a meeting and ideas start circulating around, this sometimes happens that people have their expectations built up pretty high in what they can receive in a new facility.
It is a misconception there because it is hard to convince people that are involved in community consultations that this facility is X number of dollars and a lot of people do not have that idea how much their ideas are going to cost extra for these facilities.
That is why I think it is important and for the last couple of weeks we have been emphasising that the design and what we are putting into facilities today have got to be realistic.
We all know that there are not going to be a lot of capital dollars around to build schools.
It is no secret that we probably need anywhere between 125 and 150 million dollars in capital to build schools in Nunavut in the next six or seven years.
I know the minister is putting a 20 year plan together and I shudder to think what that forecast will bring.
The point I am getting to here is that once there is a standard set for square footage and what is costs to build a facility and design then other communities expectations will be there to.
Architects are architects and people give them figures what to build. This is how much money there is and we want you to design a facility based on this figure and sometimes they are not told what the figure is.
So they put the little extras in which is great, I think we all want beautiful facilities, but I think when it gets down to schools and the costs of them, there should be maybe a standard there.
I will argue this with people that a square box may not be the best one to build and it might not be cost effective because it depends on factors in regards to the price of materials at the time, because the price of lumber fluctuates every year.
If you get six contractors bidding on the project that will make a difference in the cost of the structure also rather than if you get one contractor bidding.
So when we are doing schools, we all know around this table in the last couple of weeks that, and poor James is being besieged and we are looking at him and blaming him to a certain point, is that we see a trend happening here.
There is going to be a lot of pressure put on this government, all of us as MLAs and Cabinet Ministers, that there are going to have to be schools built in Nunavut.
We know how much money we have to build schools and it is not there for them.
So what I am emphasising here is that when we start doing community consultations on schools and building them we have to be more cost effective.
People in the communities have to realize that yes, you need a new facility but it is not going to have everything that you will probably want in it, that you would wish in it.
We all have a wish list as to what we want to do.
I think to be fair to the people of Nunavut and our constituents, we have to show a responsibility to build a facility that is cost effective.
If we let the architects get out of control and contractors not being accountable and the timelines are very important on the tendering process, I realize that more than anybody.
If you have a long window on the tendering process, then you are going to get more bidders on it and that benefits us all.
So I have to emphasize that we have to be more aware when we are doing designs and not put people’s expectations through the roof in regards to what they are going to get in these new facilities.
If you ask your constituents and my constituents what they want, they want a facility that is nice, clean, and healthy for our children.
I am not really saying that the Cambridge Bay scenario is going to be the standard, and the Cambridge Bay scenario may come in if there are four or five bidders, cheaper than a school in community C, a square box.
But if you do have a standard that people in the communities can work with then their expectations would not be too high.
In my experience in Nunavut, the first place that I go when I get off a plane is to the school and look at it.
We all say that education is the future of this new territory, but let us build schools that are within what we can afford.
The ones that I have seen so far in Nunavut are what we can afford and nothing has been extravagant.
The classrooms, the gyms and the history is there what we have built here and I think we should continue that.
I will be sitting on this side of the House for the next three and a half to four years, I will be on a Standing Committee, and I will be reviewing plans a bit more closely.
What has happened here in the last three or four weeks, the poor Minister of Education has had to sit here and justify it.
We are a new government and I agree that this is a new beginning and we want to do things differently from the old Territorial Government, but we have to live within our means.
If we have to live within our means by building facilities that are maybe standard across Nunavut and cost less, and do not have what we want, I think the bottom line here is delivering a facility that our kids can go to and it is warm and it is pleasant and it is bright and it is not going to cost 30 to 40% more than what we are used to.
So those are my comments on standard designs and criteria.
Incidentally, I think in Nunavut we have done an excellent job in Nunavut in regards to Access houses.
They are a standard design, with standard features, they come in at a fairly good price, and I think they have been successful.
The HAP houses have been a successful program, they are all standard and we have built many of them in the territory in the last 15 years.
That is about what I am summing up here now, is I will be watching the next designs and I feel sorry for the architect that designed the Cambridge Bay school because he is probably sitting and wondering how much more business he is going to get in this new territory.
I think we have really trashed him in the last couple of weeks and maybe unfairly.
Did you have any responses.
I did not hear a question but I am sure you would like to respond.
It is in regards to the shortage of money for the whole of Nunavut, I believe that was Mr. McLean’s point.
If you do not have a response.
Just a very short question.
Do you award contracts.
Anyone. Madame Minister.
Following the NNI policy which was approved on April 1, the Public Works is responsible for putting together the contracts and tenders and so on.
Do the people of Nunavut bid for contracts.
Yes, companies bid for any contracts within Nunavut if they have the ability, they bid for the contracts.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Madame Minister. I do not have any other names on the list.
Mr. Tootoo.  Mr. Tootoo: Thank you Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, I had just a couple more questions.
In your experience, I will just ask here, in Mr. Mrazek’s experience and the minister as well in construction of facilities, what is the most economical way to construct or design facilities.
It would be difficult to answer that question because it may take three days of face to face meetings.
There are a million different variations and there is no simple answer to that question.
Mr. Chairman, maybe I can make it a little easier and maybe narrow it down a little bit, it would have been a difficult question to answer.
In your experience or in general terms would it be more economical to construct something with the least amount of corners, curves in it or would it be more expensive to construct a facility that had more angles or curves and things like that in it.
I will get Mr. Mrazek to answer your question.
I just want to say is that, as Inuit we do not mind getting just square boxes or just very plain simple things.
We accept whether it is just a very plain simple design. The direction that we are getting from the members is that we should just get very plain, simple, square boxes to the communities and make beautiful ones for the south and other places, because it is too expensive to make beautiful stuff, they are just Inuit so just give them simple, basic, square designs.
That is the direction or the understanding that I am getting from the members.
That we should just give them simple things because we are trying to use as little money as possible.
But our communities, it seems that we are just to give very simple, basic designs to the communities.
For many years Inuit have been getting the very basic, mediocre type of buildings. Maybe we should think about that further when we are debating here.
I understand exactly what Mr. Tootoo’s question is and I will get Mr. Mrazek to respond to that question, but as an Inuk I would like the members to keep that in mind.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I don’t believe any member in this House was saying that we should be giving less desirable facilities just because they are Inuit as the minister had indicated.
I resent that fact that she made that point.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Tootoo. We will try to keep that in mind.
We will keep in mind what we say when we are answering questions and making our comments.
Anything else. Mr. Mrazek did you want to respond to that question.
Building any structure requires a number of the design thoughts, community consultations, looking after client needs, making sure that all the stuff that is put on paper in reality will also work.
Mr. McLean was quite clear when he made a description of an elementary school design that has been repeated in a few communities throughout Nunavut.
That has been quite successful.
The reason for that was that elementary school has a very brief and same actual programming need and therefore that has been developed and is working successfully.
Anything over and above that has never been developed in the proper engineering and the proper I would say, system, successfully yet.
I do not believe that this Legislature is the place to debate all the architectural styles, round buildings versus corner buildings or things like that, so I will stay out of any further comments.
Chairperson (interpretation): We have to think carefully about our questions and comments.
Mr. Chairman, going back to the department’s responsibility to administer all the capital projects for all the departments.
This morning or earlier today, it feels like this morning, earlier today the Minister of Finance indicated and the Minister of Education indicated that there were some projects that were time sensitive.
At that time I believe that he had indicated that we would be able to confirm some of that here with the committee of the whole with the Department of Public Works.
I was just wondering if the minister or her staff have a listing or an accurate picture of what projects are looking at what deadlines before they do not go ahead this year.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Tootoo. Madame Minister or your officials.
I would like to thank the member for asking that question.
The approval is set at April 25, if all the steps that we have to take will go ahead.
I will speak in English so that the interpreters, as they might not understand some of the words when I speak in Inuktitut.
(interpretation ends) Projects that require urgent approval.
Budget approval deadline, I will go by region.
Iqaluit for the Justice Department, BCC, maintenance upgrade, 310 thousand.
The budget approval deadline April 25.
Sanikiluaq, Public Works, PPD, combined tank farms upgrade, 951 thousand.
These are all April 25 deadlines.
Cape Dorset, increased capacity for the tank farms.
Hall Beach, re-supply pipeline.
Hall Beach, increase capacity in PPD Public Works.
Various Baffin, temperature compensation metres.
Grise Fiord, water supply improvements.
Resolute Bay, fencing of dump site.
Cape Dorset, water pipeline replacement.