EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
I think the meal is ready upstairs so before we proceed any further we will take a break.
We will come back in thirty-five minutes.
>>Committee recessed at 5.54 p.m. and resumed at 6.34 p.m.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you. Thank you, for returning to the House.
Hopefully you enjoyed your meal.
We are now going through general comments.
Each member has ten minutes.
Mr. Chairman I’m not really going to be talking about the figures.
I know that the Nunavut Housing Corporation is working hard to find more funding for housing and I know that we are not talking about the capital estimates but I’m wondering how we could start looking at cheaper housing and I know that they use steel piles to build their houses.
Some people in Canada know that the people don’t purchase houses because they can’t afford them and in south you often see cottages built and trailers.
You see a lot of trailers in the south.
I’m wondering if the Nunavut Housing Corporation can look at Yellowknife, British Columbia or Alberta to see what kind of units would suit the north.
When people start build homes in the north, the government has the building codes that they have to follow.
For instance, fuel is purchased by the government and when it’s sold to the consumer it’s a revolving fund that it goes back to and it’s the same with alcohol and if we were to build cheaper houses in Nunavut, they could also use a revolving fund for the sales of houses.
The individual that purchases the house can get financing from the bank and if houses were bought from the Housing Corporation in the Baffin, perhaps there would be a hundred units that would be purchased and in the Keewatin it would cost less.
Looking at the population of each region and just to look at how many people might be interested in purchasing units or houses because in the south we often see buildings or houses being built that, I know the units from the south the heating wouldn’t do too well for the north but earlier we were discussing health and social services and what kind of health problems are coming out because of the shortage of housing and overcrowding.
This raises health concerns and I think if units were purchased and brought to the north they could be purchased in the north at a cheaper rate and it could be put in a revolving fund and it’s hard to make comments when you know Housing Corporation is trying to seek more funds.
Any more general comments?
I just want to make a short comment in regards to the Housing Corporation and as well, I just want to compliment the former Minister responsible for the Nunavut Housing Corporation and as well the present, Minister and staff.
In some cases in some communities some households have a lot of rent to pay and I want to assure that some people have bills, and when they don’t pay the bills perhaps the house that they live in deteriorates because they don’t pay for the rent and the renovations don’t get done because they have a bill as a tenant. I wanted to comment on this area in terms of renovations not getting done because a tenant owes too much rent.
My colleague, who is sitting beside me, touched on it as well.
When some of the houses don’t get renovated, it deteriorates the well-being of the people or the tenants that live there.
It leads to illness, family problems, social problems, and so on.
I know very well that the Housing Corporation is doing the best that they can to help the local housing authority in terms of funding.
I know that it is hard when families are in need that they cannot keep up with the bills and it is a concern.
We should be thinking of their well-being as well.
Although the tenant may have a big bill to pay, we still have to keep in mind that we have to renovate the house that they are renting.
I have had comments from people in some cases when it comes to the heating systems in some houses they have furnaces.
In some cases, some elders complain that this kind of heating system leads to poor health; they become sick in some cases.
I will raise a question on that later on.
Perhaps if the heating systems were different, in some buildings, this is something that we should work towards, which heating system works better than the other.
And perhaps do a study as to how people get sick, during their time in the house.
These are some of the comments that I wanted to make and I will raise some questions later on.
Chairperson (interpretation): Any other general comments?
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): Just briefly, Mr. Chairman, we are dealing with the Nunavut Housing Corporation Main Estimates.
The money that is allocated for housing, we hear that there are not enough funds.
In Nunavut there was a review done as to what communities need housing the most. And Pond Inlet had the highest housing need, they were at the top of the list and this review was done and since we’ve gotten a new minister for this department, the concerns are still there but we understand that he is continuing to look for ways to improve housing.
I’d like to thank him for doing the review at that time.
With the shortage of housing, we are all looking at how we could increase housing in Nunavut.
I’d like to encourage the minister to continue to try and deliver more housing.
I don’t really have any general comments but I support him in the work he’s doing because we want to see improvements in housing.
There was a policy review and the rent scale, so we are expecting to see the Rent Scale Review shortly.
I’ll have questions later while we’re going page by page.
But those are my general comments.
Chairperson (interpretation): Does anybody else have any general comments?
We’ll move on to Nunavut Housing Corporation.
Page 12-5.
Page 12-6, are there any questions?
We’ll just be turning pages.
They don’t need to be approved from pages 12-6 to 12-13.
If there are none we will move to page 12-7.
Corporate Summary 12-7.
Are you on the right page?
Is everybody on the right page?
It doesn’t need to be agreed to.
Headquarters, 12-8.
Information item 12-9.
Mr. Havioyak (interpretation): Are we on 12-9 now.
I just wanted to get some clarification on our debt with the federal government as of today.
The loan that we have, is it getting smaller, what is the status today?
The total owing to the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation as of March 31 2002 is 203 million 151 thousand 488 dollars.
That’s for 3226 units under our social housing agreement.
Mr. Arvaluk: Is the rate fixed or does it fluctuate depending on the interest rates of the day?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: It is a fixed rate on all the mortgages.
These are just information items we are on debt repayment and district offices, 12-10.
Any questions Mr. Arvaluk.
Are these district offices the three different regions of Kitikmeot, Kivalliq and Baffin for the purpose of supervising or helping the housing associations, reviewing the contracts, that sort of thing?
The member is right it is all that he said, it is district offices that provides support for the housing authorities also the contracting and also now with the assumption of the staff housing also the property management function for staff housing as well has been added.
I’m not saying this 3 million 618 thousand is too small, I’m not saying that.
It’s just that with the addition of the staff housing personnel the increase is only about 500 thousand; is that from Public Works? Is that five PYs?
Mr. Chairman from the regional perspective it’s three property management positions.
One for each region.
Ms. Williams: I am not sure if it’s in there but… (interpretation)…Mr. Chairman, the question I would like to ask might be on 11.
Chairperson (interpretation): We’re on the District Offices.
Under contract services, 50 thousand, what is that used for, is that for design?
It’s for things such as telephone services, photocopying services and those types of contracts for all three of the district offices.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): Is that for people, is that for compensation to people, or is that for materials?
Is it for individuals or is it for materials?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Mr. Chairman it’s basically for materials like I had indicated in the respect to photocopying services, telephone services.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): So do I understand that is for telephones and materials and photocopies. Do we have to have a contract for those services?
What I’m trying to say is why do we need a contract for the telephones and photocopiers?
Mr. Chairman, it would be for the actual contracts for providing and servicing the photocopiers, the telephones, and that type of equipment in the district offices.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): If I was to ask that question on other expenses, is that for telephones and photocopiers and paper materials.
That’s what my understanding would be under other expenses.
And contract services that 50 thousand dollars stayed the same for quite a long time.
That’s why I wanted to find out what it was for.
Other expenses 264 thousand dollars and there’s 50 thousand dollars for contract services and I thought they would be quite similar. I wonder if you can give me some information under other expenses and contract services.
Mr. Chairman, under the other expenses category the bulk of it is Local Housing Authority Workshop funding, 200 thousand dollars.
And then there is miscellaneous for computers and other miscellaneous items.
If there are no more questions, turn the page.
Affordable housing programs, 12-11.
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): Under district offices.
I don’t think we agreed on the district offices and as well it states that, I don’t understand why we’re not approving them.
Mr. Arvaluk: Point of Order Mr. Chairman, it is up to the Chairman how he conducts his meeting.
I don’t think me or any other member has a right to tell the Chairman whether we have approve or disapproval, whatever needs to be ruled by the chairman.
Chairperson (interpretation): Yes, Mr. Arvaluk.
I didn’t hear clearly what you said, as you spoke in English.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): As ordinary members, such as myself and Mr. Iqaqrialu or anybody else, should not be telling the chairman what to do and we should not question the chairman.
That’s why I had a point of order.
Just to clarify to the members again.
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough that these pages or from the beginning to where we are at now, under Housing Corporation, 12-5 is the only one that we have to agree to because the other ones are informational items.
So, that’s why I was saying to the members that if you have any comments or questions on those information pages then we don’t have to agree to those as they are information items.
Perhaps I made myself a little bit clearer now.
We’re on affordable housing programs, 12-11.
Grants and contributions, exactly what are these grants and contributions used for.
Is it for communities or for affordable housing programs?
To whom are we contributing and granting?
These grants and contributions are the funding for the local Housing Authorities to operate their operations.
Is that for all the communities in Nunavut?
Chairperson (interpretation): I think I’m getting sleepy.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: I think they go to the Yukon.
No, Mr. Chairman, they’re for Nunavut Housing Authorities.
Chairperson (interpretation): I just want to make it clear to everyone that it’s for Nunavut.
Travel and transportation 75 thousand dollars.
Who is using Travel and Transportation?
What’s the purpose of that?
That’s travel for individuals who are responsible for the staff housing.
Under 12-11, I just want to ask a question.
Right now, some people were supposed to be paying rent and then using it towards the purchase of the house and I want to ask what the status of that is right now.
Mr. Chairman, I’m not sure what the member is referring to.
There isn’t any program right now that gives a credit for rents paid towards the purchase but it’s something as we design new programs and stuff that can be taken into consideration, such as the tenant to own program that we’ve announced but haven’t finalized the program, the policy around that program yet.
Do you think that will be in place in the next budget session for operations and maintenance and capital for next year?
Mr. Chairman, it depends on what the member means on being in place.
As far as implementing the program, whether it’s the rent scale review, tenant-to-own program, the condominium program that we’re undertaking; that will be in place in the next two to four months depending on progress.
If he’s referring to whether there’s a credit for rents paid possibly by tenants, I can’t commit to that right now.
It will be part of the program review as we finalize the policy and of course, members will want to have an opportunity to have some more input into that.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): Yes, under 12-11, during the Commissioner’s Opening Address, he stated that the government staff will be able to purchase the house that they’re renting.
I just want to know what stage that’s at right now.
The condominium project, right now we are in the process of trying to finalize securing some units and we’re in various stages of proposal calls and negotiations right now in respect of trying to acquire units that we can use for that program.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): Last question Mr. Chairman.
I know we are not dealing with capital estimates but I think there’s something in place, do you have any plans in place whereby in the smaller communities in Nunavut where there are not very many houses how you can try to get some houses, or house builders.
What I’m trying to say is if you could buy a bulk of houses from a company and sell them in the communities.
If you buy them in bulk it will be cheaper to have a revolving fund just like you have a liquor revolving fund and a fuel revolving fund.
Are you doing something along that line with housing too?
Mr. Chairman for all intents and purposes the Nunavut Housing Corporation and its structure itself can be, it’s like a separate entity and it can act like a revolving fund.
In fact, the fact that we finance mortgages now either directly or through access programs which is units that are sold, the proceeds come back to the Nunavut Housing Corporation and are reinvested into social housing.
So from that perspective, from the perspective of the condominium project that we are trying to get underway, you know, bill of sales take place and the revenues will come back and be recycled again into further investments.
So that in effect is what is happening now with the Nunavut Housing Corporation structure.
Mr. Arvaluk: I’m not taking about the long term investments of the Nunavut Housing Corporation, what I’m interested in if we can find affordable homes somewhere in this globe that is suitable for Nunavut, that, would you consider buying bulk, maybe 100 units to go Baffin 50 units, Kivalliq however 45 or 50 for Kitikmeot in bulk.
And that the potential owners would seek mortgages from commercial banks to finance their affordable housing so that your investments in purchasing these in bulk can be returned into the revolving fund within a matter of a couple of years.
Mr. Chairman the member does raise a good point and I know having been the past housing minister in the last government as well for a short duration and even now with our officials that we are always approached with companies from the south with proposals to sell packages or units that are already constructed and of course we do have to look at the cost-efficiency, affordability issue of housing.
But by the same token, I mean, the last government, and we’ve adopted that policy to date, in respect of trying to use the construction of social housing as an economic tool from the perspective of contractors and the small businesses that we have out there, particularly in the smaller communities where there’s limited economic activity.
So that’s a big portion of, you know, the broader economic decision, I guess in respect of doing, providing housing the way we do now.
That’s not to say that couldn’t change but certainly that has to be factored into consideration when we decide how we obtain our housing.
Would you consider revisiting or at least look at the housing shortage crisis versus economic viability in the smaller communities.
It doesn’t create a whole lot of wages when you are only building several houses that are being done rather quickly.
However it still creates a fairly big chunk of the total cost to the government.
I don’t think that there was any criticism from anybody including construction contractors.
When you have HAP housing the potential owners have sweat equity.
I am not only talking about sweat equity here, plus that it will cost the government nothing in several years if that building can be purchased through commercial banks, if it is affordable.
If it is a forty thousand dollar house for example, instead the usual Iqaluit rate of 200 thousand for a three bedroom.
Chairperson (interpretation): Just for the information of all.
The affordable housing programs on 12-11 and 12-12 are the same issue.
Yes, we would be willing to revisit and review as we always do on an ongoing basis to try to bring affordable and efficiency to the delivery of houses.
Chairperson (interpretation): Anything else Mr. Arvaluk?
This is about arrears in local housing associations or organizations.
I know that some of them have a hard time collecting some of the money that they could have used locally for repairs and so on.
I am just wondering how the Corporation, I guess, how they assist the community to try to collect those arrears from each organization.
I am just trying to find out how you assist them, or is the local housing handling the situation.
Mr. Chairman, each district has the Regional Program Officers that are responsible to work with the local housing authorities in some of their management support.
They work with them to put in place good collection practices to develop those policies.
Overall, it is pretty good, the collection rate Nunavut-wide is eighty-seven percent of rental assessment so that is a pretty good collection rate overall.
Obviously it could be better and I think that we will move to continue to try to make it better.
We will continue working with the housing authorities in that avenue.
Mr. Havioyak: Thank you for your response.
I just wanted to make sure that we address this issue.
I just wanted to make sure that we have our ears open before it gets any worse, the situation.
I just wanted to touch on repairs relating to the areas that people have.
As I said earlier that there are some people who find it hard to make ends meet.
Although they live in public housing in the rental units, they still cannot afford to pay for their arrears.
Some of those tenants say that I want my house repaired but I cannot because of the arrears that I have.
It makes it really hard for them to do that.
Is there something that we can do for these individuals that might have a hard time that say I want my house repaired but I can’t.
One or two individuals came up to me on this but if you can answer that for me for now and we will leave it at that.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: I guess Mr. Chairman, it’s hard to answer unless I guess generally I mean if it’s in respect to an issue of tenant damage versus regular maintenance, I mean there is two different issues here.
There’s tenant damage and if an individual doesn’t have the means that could be an issue.
If it’s regular maintenance issues again where an individual homeowner or tenant has arrears and that should be looked after.
Certainly it is not the Housing Corporation policy not to carry out the required repairs if there are arrears from a tenant.
That’s not to say that the Local Housing Authority might not have undertaken that type of a policy themselves in trying to encourage collection, greater collection rates within their own Housing Authority.
Mr. Havioyak: I’m sorry, I didn’t make myself clear.
I should have said that area when you said tenant damage, I meant in that area, when it accumulates and there’s damage.
The arrears accumulate with the tenant damage, it gets bigger as years go by and some of them in those houses by at least 12 to 15 years from what I was told anyway and during those 12 years you know there’s tenant damage each year and it gets bigger all the time.
It sometimes its tenants, I hear you when you say that yes, it’s tenants and the families and the kids but they still say my house is in need of a repair.
It can be a health issue in the future if we just leave it for 10 to 15 years because I cannot pay that tenant damage.
If it were a health and safety issue it would have to be addressed.
No matter what the Housing Authority policy might be we would ask probably that they undertake to deal with that situation.
But if there are specific problems that the member has in his community certainly I’d be willing to have Housing Corporation staff work the Housing Authority to see what they could do.
Chairperson (interpretation): We’re on the affordable housing programs.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): We talked about purchasing houses.
I don’t know whether I posed this question or not but the minister stated some time earlier that they purchase the building materials from Ontario and I asked him if he could look at other provinces so that houses could be more affordable and cheaper to build up here Nunavut and he did say that he would look into it.
My question is did you look into it already?
Did you look at the other provinces Mr. Ng?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: I don’t recall saying that we purchase our materials from Ontario.
What normally happens is there is a tender call that goes out for the required materials and it is the lowest individual or lowest firm that makes the tender that is awarded that contract.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): It’s okay if I made a mistake when I mentioned Ontario but I was asking the minister if he could look into other places where we can buy cheaper houses.
For example, if I’m going to be building my own house, I would take out a mortgage at the bank and it would cost 220 thousand dollars to build a three bedroom house.
Is it possible to look at other alternatives so that we could purchase more affordable housing?
It’s very, very expensive here.
Have you looked at the other alternatives, Minister Ng?
Chairperson (interpretation): Mr. Ng.  Hon. Kelvin Ng: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I believe I said, in response to the question of Mr. Arvaluk, that we would be willing to review the most efficient and most affordable ways of bringing in materials and housing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): I think I posed that question to the previous Minister of the Housing Corporation and I was told by the minister that they would look at shopping around for cheaper housing.
But I can’t recall if I’ve asked that question to you or the previous minister.
Since I can’t remember that, I’m asking you that question now so that we can get things going.
And if we get a new Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, then I’ll ask the same question to the end of my term.
I would like you to look into this and take Mr. Arvaluk’s comments.
Chairperson (interpretation): Did you want to respond Mr. Ng?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: I guess I’ll respond now Mr. Chairman.
Yes, I indicated earlier to the member that we would look at it.
Chairperson (interpretation): Any other comments or questions?
We’re on page.
Very briefly, what does affordable housing mean?
Well, generally it means social housing because the bulk of the contributions are for the local housing authorities.
Any other comments on this page?
We’re on Affordable Housing Programs.
Page 12-12.
Distributions of operations and maintenance budget, all sources.
Page 12-13.
Headquarters; Qikiqtaaluk, Kivalliq, Kitikmeot.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): Just for my information.
Under contract services, what is it used for.
I’m not quite sure what the contract services are used for.
Why is it that there’s a huge difference.
We have 19 million dollars Qikiqtaaluk, 5 million dollars Kivalliq, and 3 million dollars Kitikmeot.
Mr. Chairman, this is for the staff housing that was brought over from Public Works and Services so the bulk of the leases obviously are in the Qikiqtaaluk Region.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): And again, other expenses 28 million dollars for Headquarters.