EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
That is why we see them in the Capital Planning Process today on the condition and with the recommendation of the Auditor General of Canada, as well as the Standing Committee.
We would hope at the end of the day, with the continued lobbying efforts by the Finance Minister, and the Premier, and yours truly, that there will be some significant contributions at some point, come to us for these facilities.
At the same time, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest to you that with Commissioner Romanow’s Report, the National Report that will be tabled by Mr. Romanow to the Prime Minister early next week, I believe on Thursday in the House of Commons, there will be significant mention of Nunavut’s needs, infrastructures needs, Northern, remote and rural areas of the country.
We would hope coming from Mr. Romanow’s Commission Report that indeed in the February or March Budget of the Federal Government there may be an indication at that time of some help to the Government of Nunavut with these much needed facilities.
Mr. Chairman, the Minister did a great job at answering most of my question, maybe my question was a little bit too long for him to answer part of what happened to the funding that did come through.
If the Minister could indicate the potential impact could have on these facilities and this Government, if the funding did not come through.
Mr. Chairman, at one point Mr. McLean had indicated to me that he was not Nostradamus and that he could not tell the future.
I would suggest to you that I also cannot tell the future.
I would suggest to you that if the Federal funds to help us with these facilities is not forthcoming, then that will put the Government of Nunavut in a difficult position to choose between other programs and services.
At the same time the Finance Minister has made it perfectly clear today in the tabling of the Capital Budget Estimates, which we are accounting for the costs of these facilities, as recommended by this Standing Committee and the Members of this House as well as the Auditor General of Canada.
We have budgeted for them.
At the same time the Premier has made it perfectly clear that if there is an opportunity to buy out these facilities completely, then that is what we would do and with the monies that are there, we would be able to do that.
The Member is correct though, that if the Federal help with the monetary transfer towards these facilities is not forthcoming, then that will put us in a difficult situation.
I guess we will have to deal with that situation when we get there.
At the present time, the Finance Minister has done an able job of calculating and putting the contributions needed in the budget and therefore and thus, Mr. Chairman, they are budgeted for at the present time.
I guess I wasn’t looking to ask the minister if he could see into the future although some times, the way the minister answers questions you think that he might be able to.
He kind of alluded to my next question that I wanted to ask him.
I guess, going back to that, if this stuff isn’t forthcoming this funding from the Federal Government, is that there is a contingency in place so that we know what the impacts are going to be on us as a government.
As the minister indicated, then we’re going to have to make some tough choices on programs and services and other things.
For the benefit of all of us, the sooner we know the potential of what those impacts could be the better.
I would like to ask the minister providing something, in conjunction with the quite capable minister of Finance or just from his department itself to provide us with some different scenarios and options to look at so that at least we can, as members of this legislative assembly, take a look and understand what possible impact decisions we’re making today could be done.
So, looking at different scenarios I’d just like him if he could try and provide that information to the members.
Mr. Chairman, yesterday, we were discussing the usage of Paxil which is a drug used to treat some people with depression and so on in most psychiatric cases.
I would suggest to you Mr. Chairman, that we don’t need the usage of Paxil in this case because the depression is not there.
What this house would in conjunction with the Finance Minister and the Cabinet, as well as with the members in the Standing Committee on Health, was to look at opportunities for contingency if and when the need arrives.
At the present time the budgeted amounts are in place and I appreciate what the member is saying, is that indeed, if it comes to the point where a fiscal situation develops, is there going to be a contingency in place.
And that would be developed in conjunction with the members as well as the FMB.
We’re under Capital Estimates, so if we could try and stay with the subject here.
I thought we were approving amounts now that could have future impacts and we need to know all the information to be able to make an informed decision.
That’s what I’m looking at.
Contrary to Mr. Picco’s commentary, if you listen to Minister Ng’s statement today, we’re looking at a 74 million dollar deficit this year.
Those times where we’re really going to have to take a hard look at if the money is going to be there to go on with all of these facilities.
Those plans can really be planned, and made now, when we’re running out of time and money.
For those reasons, I asked those questions Mr. Chairman.
I alluded earlier that the minister could foretell the future when he alluded to my next question and that was one question I had, was, at the end of the day, when these facilities are constructed, are they going to continue to be leased facilities or are they going to be owned by the govt?
Hon. Ed Picco: We are proceeding and have been over the last few years to make the plans for the lease to purchase option with the development corporations in the Kitikmeot and the Qikiqtaaluk Corporation for the Iqaluit facility.
At the same time, the Premier has maintained all, is that any agreement that is signed off by the Government of Nunavut is that the Government of Nunavut has the option for a buy back of the facility at any given time during that leasing period.
Donald welcome to the house. I think the Kugluktuk residents were wishing you were here.
Is there any, looking at these leases, is there any limits or a minimum or a maximum limit of cost of doing it as a lease as opposed to a purchase, like, what a premium for using the lease rather than building it? Is there a minimum or maximum amount that they’re looking at?
Because I was looking at having to pay extra as a result of whatever option is pursued.
Standard accounting practices are used when we put forward the numbers that are being put forward towards the house today in the Capital Estimates for 2003 – 2004.
Any time that you move toward a lease agreement, there is a premium to be paid for that because another group is financing the costs.
That’s the cost of doing business; we expect that that would be a factored into the lease agreement when they’re finally negotiated and finalized.
Mr. McLean: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the Qikiqtani General Hospital, it’s close to $50 million dollars.
Do you expect, and I know you’re non profit, and we can’t see into the future, and my good friend Nostradamus is not around anymore so you can’t confide in him, but if there is going to be cost over runs and you know, we might all be on Paxil and anti-depressants and if you’re not on it you might have a tendency to jump in front of street car.
But this $46 million is it a reasonable cost estimate on this facility and you know if you’re out by 30%, sometimes Capital Projects are out by 20 or 30%.
That’s a significant amount of dollars.
Can you answer that question?
Mr. Chairman, I would suggest to you that the numbers given are pretty firm.
They have been inflated and escalated based on continued dollars expressed at the time of the beginning envelop which was put forward.
For example, in 1997, 1998 the envelope at that time was the total of $25 million dollars in standard 1997, 1998 building costs.
Here in Iqaluit alone we know that the building costs have increased from about $120 dollars a square foot. $175 dollars a square foot.
So we had to build those contingencies in there.
We would suggest to you Mr. Chairman, that the $50 million figure does take into account some of those contingencies that we just spoke about and would be an accurate reflection of those costs.
However, things occur during construction and so on, that may, outside the boundaries, outside the scope of what you budget for and so we have those set in factor according to the amounts presented.
You got furniture and equipment 1.1 and then future years 5.7.
Technology is changing and with the degree of services that you just explained earlier that you’re going provide in that facility, is this a realistic cost on furniture equipment for that facility?
Mr. Chairman, the member is correct, one of the concerns that we have right now for example, is that in the old hostel facility, we’re not able to go out and get the proper surgical beds, like the gurney and so on because it can’t fit in the hallways of the current old facility.
So, if you’re going to build a new facility, you need to upgrade at the same time, the equipment and have the very best monitoring equipment available.
Those prices continue to rise and so on.
We would suggest to you right now, Mr. Chairman, that it’s the 2002.
And shortly it will be the year 2003.
When this facility is ready to be moved into, and with the equipment in a two or three year time frame, you need to be able to factor in the inflation rates and so on and then pre-determine and pro-rate those amounts into actual cost effective continuum.
When you approach that factoring, that equation, it gives you assessed needs which is presented here, so those dollar values are reflective of inflationary factions.
As well as any cost contingencies that may developed over a period of time.
That’s a very good answer.
And I would expect a very good answer on close to $55 million dollars worth of taxpayers’ money going into facilities.
Like I said earlier, I’d be horrified and terrified if the cost over hits 10 or 15 % because then we’re up to $65 million dollars in a facility.
My question and it’s really not related to a capital question: how much does the minister feel he’ll save by building this facility and repatriating X number of dollars to this region?
Mr. Chairman, I want to make it perfectly clear to Mr. McLean, and to the member and the public at large, that this government indeed is going to look at the costs of these facilities and so forth, it takes it very serious.
And we are trying to make sure that we get the best value for the dollar that is being spent.
After saying that, at no time, has the building construction of a new facility, whether it be in Rankin Inlet or Cambridge Bay or here in Iqaluit, been about saving money for the government.
It’s about providing a better service in the 2002 and onward.
For example, this facility here was built in 1962 for a population in the community of about 1000 and in the region, about 1500.
It is more than ten times that size today Mr. Chairman.
We haven’t figured in what the cost savings would be.
We would suggest that we know there will be savings but there will also be increased labour costs and so on.
At the same time, as move forward in the year 2002, 2005, 2006, is it acceptable to be sending every patient out?
As we’ve heard from the members in this house many times, the answer is not.
We can treat people closer to home and in Nunavut, money spent in Nunavut is better than having to spend money south.
That’s the contingency that is in place for these facilities Mr. Chairman.
You’re answering the question the way that I want to hear them.
So, yes in fact, when I say that we’re going to save money, which seems to be an issue in this government all the time.
The magnitude of the amount of money that we’re going to spend on this facility in Iqaluit, and I like I say, it’s no small figure.
So I’m hoping, and you’ve got a very capable department, that when you’re building and running these facilities, that there’s going to be some cost savings than sending people south.
Or what’s the point in building them?
Will we be able to afford them down the road?
You know, you can build a palace, but will we be able to afford to run it or is it just going to be people getting off a plane here and getting a slip and then going on to Montreal and Ottawa.
So I take it, and I’m taking your answer back to me, that yes, this facility is going to be able to provide functions that are not be provided there now and then a lot more people won’t have to go that are going south now.
Is that correct, Mr. Minister.
Mr. Chairman, we have figured out and looked at some of the approximate cost in savings and reductions and I find to point out that that’s not the prime mandate or motive to put these facilities in place.
However, with annual increases and the operating costs of millions of dollars, we would expect about $12 million to be the annual increase in operating costs for all three facilities.
We also suggest Mr. Chairman that the approximate annual cost and reduction would be about $11.6 million that would be about $4.4 million in Rankin, around approximately the same in Cambridge Bay, and another on the list in Iqaluit with the services that are being offered today will still be offered in the new facility for the total savings of 11.6.
We would expect that the net change in operating these facilities would be about $1 million in more costs based on the savings, less the expansionary numbers that we just gave.
I would suggest to you Mr. Chairman that that’s pretty good value for the money and as Mr. McLean has said we have tried to repatriate patients.
We have tried to do more services here, like we’re doing right now in his hometown of Baker Lake, where we’ve opened up an elders’ hospital so that elders in Baker would not have to be sent outside of their home community.
And that’s the whole intent Mr. Chairman of the three regional facilities.
There’s one in Iqaluit, in Rankin and Cambridge Bay, as they help deliver patients here closer to home.
And if that results in the savings then that’s fantastic but the same time we know that those costs and the savings that are factored in will be an added bonus to the government.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Picco. Mr. McLean.
For every action we have a reaction.
When there’s new facilities being built, there’s a little issue, the tiny issue of staffing it and every community in Nunavut has a certain degree of professionalism and employees that can walk into certain jobs and off the street and do them.
How many additional people do you feel you will have to bring into Iqaluit to staff this facility once it’s up and running?
Mr. Chairman, over the last three years, we have been pandemic shortage of medical professions across Canada especially across in the area of the nursing.
It has been unfortunate for example over the last several months to witness some of the situations that keep evolving at Stanton Hospital and services in Yellowknife where there has been problems in the west with closures and so on.
In Nunavut we have stabilized our workforce; we have put incentives in place.
As the members know, two years ago I introduced a Naujaat report, which was recruitment and retention issues and supported by my cabinet colleagues, we have finally solidified and kept our nursing programs in place.
And we’re actually in a position right now, where we’re at some of the best staffing that would be at finesse.
One of the concerns being raised by members and in public at large is how will we staff these new hospitals?
Mr. Chairman, it is very important to point out that it is easier to staff a hospital then it is to staff a community health centre.
When you’re trying to put licensed practical nurses who do the dispensing, who do investigative work, who do laboratory work, and so on in a community health centre; those specialized skills are very hard to recruit.
Hospital nurses are easier to recruit for because there’s a different set of skills that are involved.
So we don’t see that as a major problem.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Picco. Mr. McLean.
You’ve done a wonderful job Mr. Picco and you should be praised for your work on retaining and hiring health care professionals in Nunavut.
I think you’re second to none out of the three territories with what you had to work with.
But will you please answer my questions.
How many additional people are you going to have to bring in to staff that facility?
I thought excellent answer would have thrown him off but it didn’t.
I don’t have the number of extra PYs.
That’s one of the things that we’re working on right now, Mr. Chairman, but we will get that information to the member.
And like I said, if my old friend Nostradamus was around, he’d do a projection for you on the staff that you’re going to need to run this important facility for Nunavut.
I don’t want to make a joke of it but, the issue that I’m trying to get to here, Mr. Minister, is that if you have to bring an additional 40 or 50 people in, from the south, specialists or whatever, the biggest issue that we’ve got now in Iqaluit and other communities is housing.
So here we go and build this beautiful facility and then we’re going to staff it.
So the jobs go out but housing is not provided.
And my other colleague, Mr. Tootoo, brought up the other issue of the transient centre which is another thing.
I know you’re a busy man and you’re really working hard in your department to see that things are done right.
Have you thought about the issue of providing staff houses for these staff that you may have to bring in?
If you don’t have staff housing, then you won’t be able to bring them in, and then you’ll have the facility on the top of the hill there, the Taj Mahall that you won’t be able staff.
Mr. Chairman, the premier told me yesterday morning that if the facility goes up and when, that I have to make sure that there’s proper housing there.
That indeed has to be part of the planning cycle.
I said to the premier yesterday that in deed he was correct and that if this facility is going to go forward, we need to be proactive and make sure that staff housing is available.
And that’s why the government has put in place under the able auspices of the Housing Minister, some of these extra incentives for condominiums and so on, so that we’ll have those opportunities.
At the same time, we believe the number of new employees for the facility, professionals that are, Mr. Chairman, will probably be close to a dozen, between 12 and 14 new PYs that are not available right now in the facility in Iqaluit.
We should be able to accommodate them.
At the same as the premier indicated, we need to make sure that when the facility is completed, that in three or four years, when it’s finally up and running by 2005/2006 that the housing will be there.
That’s something that the department’s looking into right now in conjunction with other departments in government that are associated with the staff housing issues.
This will be more my last comment than a question.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against this facility in Iqaluit.
I was up there once for an appointment and I was really disgusted with the state of that facility and I think it should have been replaced years ago when you were a Member of the Legislative Assembly in Yellowknife and there was money set aside at that time for that facility.
For some reason it never got spent and I don’t know why.
I listened to it all the time about why it wasn’t built.
On the up side of it I really support this facility and I think that everybody in Nunavut does also.
Hopefully when this facility is built, some young people in Nunavut will go to that facility and see how nice it is and then maybe take a keen interest in the health profession in Nunavut.
And I hope they do.
I commend your efforts in trying to get nurses in Nunavut, to take the course and become nurses and I hope you continue that on in the future.
Like I say, with the new $55 to 65 million dollar facility, in Iqaluit for the region, I’m hoping that this will help a lot of people with their medical needs.
I’d like to thank you for your answers.
As usual, they’re always honest, and straight forward and short.
And that’s all the comments I have Mr. Chairman.
Those were excellent questions and comments.
When we had the NWT Legislative Assembly, there were a lot of projects that we wanted to see that never materialized to date.
We now have to work extremely hard for those to become a reality.
Thank you. Minister Picco.
I think it’s important for the record again to note and we have had a lot of new people especially for the example moving to Iqaluit.
In 1995, when I was elected to the 13th Assembly of the Northwest Territories, shortly there after Paul Martin cut the gross expenditure base the Government of Northwest Territories in Yellowknife by $62 million dollars.
By 1997, Mr. Chairman, the Government of the Northwest Territories was in a deficit situation and that’s when the Government looked at some severe cost cutting measures including the elimination of VTA’s when they tried to sell off staff housing and so on.
It was a different fiscal time.
At the same time, Mr. Chairman, for the record, it’s important to point out in 1988 when the health care was transferred from the Federal Government to the Government of the Northwest Territories, there was a commitment Mr. Chairman, to renovate the Iqaluit facility and built a new facility in Inuvik.
The Deputy Minister of the day was Mr. Bob Cousil from the Federal Government and he signed on in 1989 saying that he wanted to build a facility in Iqaluit and not renovate it.
Money was put aside for that through the Federal formula financing money to come through, those monies were in the gross expenditure bases.
The Government to consolidate a revenue fund and ended up as Mr. Ng. pointed out before because he was the health minister and I could tell you, Mr. Ng bent over backwards.
He carried on, carried forward, Mr. Chairman as the health minister to try to put that facility in place and he was not successful and that’s why this Minister wants to be successful where Mr. Ng. failed at that time, through no fault of his own because he did try as best he could.
So, with that Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the members comment and say in all seriousness that it has been very frustrating being a resident of Iqaluit, a person who uses the health care system and seeing delays continue and continue.
I would hope that the money reflected in the budget right now, that we can move forward and this time next spring and see actual construction take place on the lot including the clean-up of the environmental spill that’s there and continue what needs to be done.
Please respond as briefly as you can into the point.
There are a lot of people who would like to ask questions.
Please let me know if I’m asking questions outside of the Capital Estimates, Mr. Chairman.
In Cambridge Bay, there is a proposal to build a health facility.
How many rooms is this facility to have?
Chairperson (interpretation): At this point we’re on the Capital Estimates, Qikiqtaaluk Region.
You can pose that question when we do to the Kitikmeot Region.
Mr. Alakannuark (interpretation): Okay I’ll wait then.
Mr. Chairman, I was looking at the Baffin, Qikiqtaaluk Capital here and if you refer it kind of ties into the Capital Plan back in Appendixes.
I’m just wondering, is there something that I don’t see in here, is something that, you know, this government committed to doing this year in Pangnirtung was limited detoxification centres in the communities and there is no place.
I was expecting the way it was announced and that they were going to be doing that, something in the Capital Plan for them so I was wondering if the minister could let us know where those facilities are going to be.
Mr. Chairman, detox is a program delivered by the Department of Health & Social Services.
It is not a physical facility, and therefore and thus, the money would be in the O and M budget for a detox centre.