EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Mr. Chairman, I am confident that all members will recall from our recent Arviat Caucus Retreat that our collective goals included supporting the opening of a Nunavut Trades School by the end of the Second Assembly and finalizing plans for a Nunavut Cultural School.
Members were disappointed to note that neither of these projects have been included in this year’s five year plan and expect to see them in future plans.
Another goal agreed to by all members at the Arviat Caucus retreat was the finalizing of plans for a Nunavut Cultural School.
Members look forward to regular updates from the Minister on this important initiative
I’m sure that individual members will also have questions and comments as we proceed.
Before we proceed I would like to remind all members of the following:
According to Rule 77(1), you have 10 minutes to speak and according to Rule 77(2), subject to the discretion of the Chair, a member may speak more than once to the matter under discussion, but not until every member wishing to speak has spoken.
Members, wherever possible, ask your detailed questions during the page by page review of the estimates on education capital.
Do members have any general comments on education?
I would like to thank the rock star for being able to set up the witness table and his officials.
I am very pleased that we are going to be discussing the issue of education.
It seems clear and I am sure that it took a while to come up with an aggressive plan like this.
I have also seen what your department is doing at the community level.
In my community, over the summer, I saw some possible problems because of the location of the schools.
We have a lot of mobile equipment in the community, and I think that it is essential to think about the parking lots in the communities, and to make the schools accessible to all people, including the handicapped.
The school is not completed yet, but when you are looking through the facility, you can tell that there is a difference the old schools that have been built in the past and what is being built today.
I also like the idea of the facilities being built up, and larger rooms.
School kids usually come in from recess tired and because of the high ceilings the air is better circulated in the schools.
Again, with the capital projects and because of the restraints in the amount of the monies, we will still have to find funds for transportation.
I wanted to make those general comments because I am sure that it took more than a year to come up with this capital plan.
In Nunavut, the education issue, we will be dealing with that.
The schools in the communities are not big enough.
Looking at the population growth and with the communities growing and the population increasing, we seem to be going through a very rapid change.
In Sanikiluaq, my constituency, last week I was told that the population of my community, I almost fell down with the numbers that I was given.
In the early ’80’s the population was about 300 ,but today it’s gone up to 775 people.
The community is growing at a rapid rate.
The district education authority, what they have given me, the concerns that they have towards our school in 2005/06, there will be 16 new students.
I should mention that up to today there are 293 students in Sanikiluaq, but in 2005/06, there will be 16 new students, and in 2006/07, 19 new students and in 2007/08, 12 new students, and 2008/09, 25 new students and 2009/10, 15 new students.
And looking at those rates, in total that’s 380, and that’s what they are predicting according to their records.
Looking at the capital estimates for the renovation for the Sanikiluaq School was delayed but, I was happy that there were officials that came down to explain why this had to be delayed and I’m also happy to see the capital estimates 2005/06, that it is now included in the capital estimates.
My constituents are able to hear what the plans are but after this I will be able to explain to them.
I just wanted to point out that many schools are getting too small for the size of the community, especially when they are always short on money, something we are experiencing within Nunavut.
Chairman: Thank you Mr. Kattuk.
I was a little too excited to say that your deputy was looking better than you and I had forgotten about Mr. Levy, don’t be left out.
So welcome to the witness table, and also you, Mrs. Pam Hine, Deputy Minister.
Mr. Barnabas (Interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
When I visited my communities I was often told that the Education Act should be enforced because in a lot of communities some students, even though they may not even be at the exact grade level, they just seem to just pass them.
A lot of times we find that when they apply for a job even people who have grade 12 are not qualified because their grade level is lower.
When you are representing smaller communities, we are being built elementary and high schools under one building.
Not too many people like the idea for the fact that the elementary students look up to the older students.
In bigger communities, like for example, here in Iqaluit, they have elementary schools and high schools that are separate.
The elementary students are not in the same schools as high schools and it should be like that in the smaller communities.
In Resolute Bay, there is no community learning centre.
They don’t have a building as a such and this has to be resolved.
There was also a concern; students who have graduated from grade 12, some of them can’t even sew.
They can’t make clothing.
And they should be able to do that.
So the instruction of classes, that should include Inuit to teach how to make kamiks for women, and different things for male students.
I don’t think we’ll see a real Inuktitut school, or university physically, and that kind of instruction should be included in the schools.
I’ll have questions later on.
Turn to page G-5 of your capital estimates book. Are there any questions on page G-5.
Turn the page to G-5 of your capital estimates book. Any questions on page G-5. Any questions.
G-6. Education.
Detail and Capital.
Corporate Service.
We’re on page G-6.
I want to thank the minister and his officials, Mr. Levy, and Ms. Hine, for coming today.
I wanted to ask the minister if he could describe for us or outline for us the formula that they use to project the size of schools that will be needed in our Nunavut communities over the next, say, 15 to 20 years.
My colleague just alluded to it earlier in his comments that his community is growing very quickly.
There are other communities that are growing very quickly and perhaps the population growth is four or five times faster than the formula that you use to design schools.
Mr. Chairman, good afternoon to the Committee and good afternoon to Mr. Keith Peterson.
I look forward to seeing Keith on the ice on Monday night also.
Mr. Peterson raises a great piece of information here on how the standards and criteria are put into place for schools and how that’s designated.
So, very quickly, for example, Mr. Peterson, and anyone else in the listening public, they can go onto our website and they can see the standards and criteria that are put in place for schools.
Also, there is a priority placed on the schools by utilization.
The magic number I believe is 90 percent.
So, when the school reaches 90 percent, then this planning done on the utilization aspect of when a new school should be planned and needed for.
That is also evaluated, at that time, under priority rating, for example, on the utilization as well as the age of the school.
Then you try to look at when the last renovation or upgrade to the school had been done and so on.
So there are several different of ways of indicating the signs.
Some of the general comments that have occurred this afternoon have been that when the school is being built, within in two years it’s redundant because we didn’t do a good job of forecasting the utilization of the student enrolment.
Some people have pointed out I have joined a committee, for example, Aqsarniit as an example.
First of all, Aqsarniit School, as an example, was actually planned by the federal government, an incremental infrastructure program.
What we try to do as a department, I know Mr. Levy later might want to speak to it at a greater detail.
But it is my understanding that by basing the standards and criteria that we just spoke about, as well as the priority by utilization, and then doing the demographic or population we can actually project to see what the intended enrolment would be and then you try to design your school based on that.
Again, it is something that we have talked about and actually debated in the House, but that’s the estimate or projection that you can make.
In most cases, it is my understanding, is that utilization numbers and those projections are usually pretty close, but again, sometimes you may be off.
So I hope that helps answer the question by Mr. Peterson.
Thanks for that answer, Mr. Minister.
Could you tell us, across Nunavut, how many of our existing elementary and high schools are need of replacement or expansion due to the population growth in the communities among the school-aged children?
When we review the status of the schools within the committee, I pointed out at that time that under the priority by utilization and enrolment figures as well as the known capacity of the school, we try to then include plans for designing a new school for that community.
It is around eight schools I believe that have reached that threshold.
Out of those eight, I believe, they are in planning stages or underway, except for one school.
So, if you are looking at about one out of the eight that have reached that threshold of 90 percent or more where you actually do your planning and indeed, we are actually doing seven out of eight of those at the present time.
There seems to be a common practice that the Department of Education either renovates a school or builds a new school.
I was looking at the Inuksuk High School renovations, and it looks like over the next seven or eight years up to 2006-2010 to spend close to $19,000,000 on renovations. In other pages throughout the capital plan, new schools are going to be costing $8 to 9,000,000.
So I am wondering, Mr. Minister, you have built high schools in places like Arviat or Baker Lake, Cambridge Bay as well, for less than $19,000,000 each.
Can the minister tell us what benefits result from renovating an existing school that would make it more beneficial than building a new high school or elementary school?
First of all, on renovations and construction of new schools, when we look at the total amount of dollar values that we’ve spent, we have to be able to factor in what would be the best usage of those dollar value, whether it is to build or renovate.
In the case of Inuksuk High School, it is 33 years old.
The utilization rate right now is 100 percent and the replacement cost of Inuksuk High School is estimated in 2004 dollars at $26 million dollars.
So, to go back into the structure, which is a sound structure, and make to request and required changes and this case it would be cheaper to renovate the current facility then go and spend $26 million on a new school.
When you look at the enrollment, this is another good one.
Inuksuk High School has over 520 students.
It is the highest enrollment of any school in Nunavut.
It is at a 100 percent.
It’s a long term plan because of the scope of the work that needs to be done.
But in the long run, it is easier to facilitate the renovation then to spend 26 million for the construction of a new school.
Plus, Mr. Levy just pointed out to me too, I believe it would also cost about 1.5 million dollars to extensively get rid of the current structure if we built a new one.
So, you wouldn’t need that structure then.
So, long and short, Mr. Chairman, in this case, it would be better to renovate than build.
And that’s what basis, either building or renovating is based on.
So, if you have a school in place that you can renovate and add on to, if you can still facilitate the same plan that you want to do, then that is the way to proceed.
If you can’t renovate a current facility or you can’t add on to it, then you would build a new building.
It is a scary thing.
Yesterday, I was reading Minister Kilabuk’s mind and today Minister Picco is reading my mind.
My next question, Mr. Chairman, what happens when a department does decide to build a new high school or an elementary school?
Is that, you know that there is a structure facility that exists to other government departments, or offered to hamlets?
Do you try to utilize it for some other purpose within the community?
Mr. Chairman, it depends on a case by case as need basis.
For example, if the school is redundant and that we are building a new school and we didn’t need the old school.
A good example would be Baker Lake.
At the end of the day, it was actually because some of the concern with the product of school itself, the structure, the viability of the building, it was decided that we would actually tear the building down.
It wasn’t a surplus to the community.
It would depend on each individual space, the condition of the facility.
If you’re moving out the facility and building a new facility you couldn’t add on to it, then the building through the usual policy process of the government, the building would be surplus and then it would be offered, first, to the government departments of the Government and then to the, for example, to the hamlets and so on.
So, that is the process that usually takes place in the surplus of assets of the Government, when we look at physical assets.
Any questions on page G6?
Questions to G6, page G6?
Total Headquarters Region. $300,000.
Chairman: Any questions on G7?
I have question on sprinkler upgrades.
It looks like you are spending $3 million for sprinkler upgrades on schools throughout Nunavut.. That is one of ways to prevent serious damage to our valuable assets.
What other security type initiatives has the department undertaken to protect our schools from fire damages, arson and things like that?
Are you planning to install security cameras in some of the schools throughout Nunavut?
As a result of the Joamie School fire, an investigation was carried out in our schools throughout Nunavut because of the issue around the crawl space, and so on, that is why the money was put in the sprinkler.
So I think, as the member pointed out, that has been a good move by the government to be able to complete the sprinkler systems and ensure safety within the schools from fire.
The other issue was the school surveillance system, security cameras.
The previous standing committee in the House recommended to install the security systems within our schools.
We are currently proceeding with a tender for installation in the Kivalliq region, which will be followed by the Kitikmeot, and then we will complete the Qikiqtani region for full installation.
It depends on the installation, we would hope to have it all completed by the year end of 2005/06.
Then we would have the system fully tested at that time, for example, here in Iqaluit.
Currently, Mr. Chairman, it is important to point out that almost every school across Nunavut has indicated the desire to have the surveillance cameras in place.
We believe that it is, as the member has pointed out, a good initiative.
I know that in Cambridge Bay the water supply to elementary or high schools are tied into the water line, so it keeps a continuous supply of water in the reservoirs but I am not sure how it works in other communities.
Perhaps they have to be filled by water trucks.
How reliable are the sprinkler systems if you have a situation where water supply is decreased and you have a fire and then you have a blizzard, on top of that, in terms of protecting the schools?
With the issue around the freeze ups, the tornadoes, the blizzards, the hurricanes and the other acts of God that are caused through the weather and climatic conditions of the north, I have been assured that the recent additions of the sprinkler systems throughout Nunavut, are up to code.
They meet the standards for the today, and indeed, would be in place to be able to assist in the quenching of any fire that occurred within the infrastructure where the sprinkler system was placed.
I am pretty confident and based on the latest technology and information that indeed that is the case.
We would be able to look after that eventuality, however, Mr. Chairman; I am not in the position to say that given any eventuality that would work.
I would say to you that 99 percent of what would be covered based on the current condition of the sprinklers would indeed be in place.
It is also my understanding that sprinkler tanks are separate areas than the water tanks in the schools, that gives us a little bit of an assurance.
Also in many of our schools, we have an emergency generator system in place, as you know, so when the lights or power goes off, the generator actually comes on and keeps the school operating.
In many cases and in many communities, Mr. Chairman, our schools are actually the place for an emergency evacuation.
So if there was an emergency in a given community, it is the school where you would actually bring people because it is an emergency shelter and having that generator in place.
Being from Cambridge Bay, I’m very familiar with what happens when worse case scenario occurs.
Our high school burned down in August and it was perfect weather that day.
When we were setting up the Nunavut Reciprocal Insurance Program for municipalities, we learned about a term called maximum probable loss. That was your worse case scenario where you don’t think a disaster will occur, but it’s possible.
In Cambridge Bay, for us to lose our hamlet building, our ice arena, our fire hall, our three-bay garage, our swimming pool, our office building next door and a few other buildings in close proximity, that would be like 25 or $40 million in damages.
It’s a wake up call to us and municipalities that we have to work together with the hamlets, the fire departments across in every community, the Department of Community and Government Services to ensure that our buildings are protected, to the best of our abilities.
I’m not sure how it works in your department.
Are you working closely with the fire department, Department of Community and Government Services and municipalities to come up with local community emergency measure type plans to protect those valuable facilities.
I wonder if, Mr. Minister could comment at all.
When we think about the maximum probable loss of titanic proportions, then we look at the operation between the government and it’s different departments.
For example, in this case, Community and Government Services are one of our major partners when we’re planning schools.
When we just recently did the tour of Joamie School, myself as Minister and some of the staff a couple of weeks ago, one of the questions I asked at that time what the school set up as an emergency shelter situation.
That coordination is set up through Community and Government Services.
So, I can confirm with the member that there is considerable inter-agency and interdepartmental work in planning a school so that the maximum probable loss of titanic proportions are indeed dealt with at that time.
I didn’t know that our high school in Cambridge Bay was compared to the Titanic.
I have no more questions on that page.
Any questions on page G-7.
Page G-7.
Total Qikiqtaaluk Region, $10,867,000.
Chairman: Thank you. Kivalliq Region.
Total Kivalliq Region, $4 million 835 thousand.
Chairman: Thank you. Page G-8, Tangible assets.
Sorry, any questions to page G-8.
The Nunavut Arctic College is building a student accommodation in Cambridge Bay. That’s great for our community and great for our region and the community appreciates it.
I want to ask the minister what the plans are for a new campus in Cambridge Bay.
The existing facility is about 30 or 35 years old.
I think it’s originally, well it is, it’s a bunch of trailers tied to together.
If you go up in the crawl space in the ceiling there, monkeys would enjoy swinging through the cables and wires there.
It’s 30 or 40 years old.
I’m wondering if the Minister and his officials could tell me if they have any plans for a new campus in Cambridge Bay.
The board of governors at the college, as well as the senior administration, have been trying to concentrate over the last couple of years on dealing with the immediate capital needs that includes building new community learning centres, looking at some of the additions as well as putting in student accommodations.
There is a plan identified later on within the supplemental capital plan for many years out to look at that facility.
Over the next couple of days, I will have an opportunity to meet with the board of governors of the college, Mr. Lynn, he is coming into town.
So, I will have a discussion with him then on the priorities setting exercise of the capital plan for the college.
Thank you for that answer, Mr. Minister.
It may seem strange that we have a new residence and of course that is going to attract a lot of students to want to come to Cambridge Bay because housing has been a problem in the past.
But now we are going to have the opposite problem.
We are not going to have adequate classrooms or suitable facilities to provide different classroom instructions, practical instructions.
So I think the new facility with new classrooms, new modern classrooms, and equipment there would be really enhance our facilities in Cambridge Bay.
I want to ask a question about the elementary school renovation within Gjoa Haven.
During our standing committee hearings in late September, I had an opportunity to drop in on the standing committee. I just heard from the Community and Government Services hearings where they were talking about building, with the hamlet, a new community or hamlet complex and they wanted a community gym.
So there has been some discussion with planning with the Community and Government Services working on a gym facility for the hamlet, but also for the school.
I am wondering if the minister and his officials could give us an update on how the negotiations or discussions are going with the hamlet council of Gjoa Haven in terms of what do they want for their community?
The member is correct and indeed, Mr. Levy has had an opportunity to travel to Gjoa Haven.
If we finish in time today for Mr. Levy to meet his plane, he will be going directly into Gjoa Haven to continue those discussions on the capital planning process for the school renovation there.
I have known Lorne for many, many years, in fact, I played on his Education broomball team one year. I was warned by my wife not to play against my brothers after that.
But I am sure that he is an official that I think the people of Gjoa Haven would respect highly in helping them find a solution to how to work this problem out.
Just before we end on this page, I want to have an opportunity to ask the minister if he could tell us how he sees the Nunavut trades school project unfolding for the next three to four years.
I know it is not in the capital planning but it came out in our priority planning exercise and it was a stated priority for the Government of Nunavut, if the minister could make a few comments on that.
The vocational training school as well as the folks school are both projects that have had the ringing endorsement of the full caucus and indeed, the cabinet.
We brought forward in the Operations and Maintenance Budget to be presented this spring in the Department of Education will have monies in there identified to look at the next steps for the folks school as well as the vocational training school.
In the meantime and at the same time, last month I met with several federal ministers in Ottawa to discuss opportunities for the pre-vocational training school.
I spoke with the Prime Minister, Mr. Martin and he wrote me back on the vocational training school and told me to bring it up with the Minister Scott of DIAND.
I followed that up with a meeting with Mr. Scott last month, Mr. Andy Scott. We just followed up again with Mr. Scott on the priority setting on the pre-vocational training school for Nunavut.