EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
When Mr. Iqaqrialu asked a question you responded with that answer and Mr. Iqaqrialu, from what I understand was asking questions earlier about the compensation and benefits figure which was 73 million and then 14 million dollars and now there was nothing set aside for this year.
The question and the response didn’t match.
So I would like further clarification on that answer.
We have moved that line item to Community Policing.
It’s here in our pot of money but it’s in another program and this is due to our commitment to assisting the communities.
Correct me if I’m wrong on this.
You made an announcement that you have 14 new positions and the communities were identified.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
I know there was one position they mentioned for Kugluktuk at that time.
I’m using Kugluktuk as an example.
You mentioned 14 new positions.
Are they all in the communities now or are you still putting them into those communities that were announced earlier this year that will be getting additional offices?
For the purpose of budgeting we had to announce with the federal government earlier and we had to pre-approve them before.
For the purposes of putting them in place they require housing at the community level so we’re hopeful that we can have all the RCMP officers in each of the communities which were scheduled to get them by this summer.
So it’s dependant on providing housing for them.
But we’re very hopeful that we can have everyone on the ground by the summer.
Mr. Havioyak: Yes, it’s good to know.
Again, just to reaffirm that, I know you mentioned some of the communities earlier on, I guess Kugluktuk’s on the list, just to confirm that again.
Yes, I believe there are funds for Kugluktuk out of the six that are floating members.
Page 5-8, Justice.
Total operations and maintenance 17 million 421 thousand dollars.
Turn the page to 5-10 and 5-11, those two pages go together.
Legal Services Board.
Total operations and maintenance 3 million 362 thousand dollars.
Under 5-10, Legal Services Board, they are responsible for ensuring that all eligible persons receive legal services in accordance with the act.
There’s been a slight increase under Legal Services, why is it lower than the government lawyers?
I am just wondering because they help a lot more people than the government lawyers and yet their funding levels are a lot lower.
The Legal Services are funded by the government and has a slight increase under Compensation and Benefits.
There has been a slight increase and they are funded by the Government of Nunavut.
We work with them to see how much funding they require.
Ms. Williams: I don’t think that I am making myself clear so I will try to ask it in English, Mr. Chairman.
The Compensation and Benefits for Legal Services Board staff, there is a tiny increase, whereas the internal government legal services has a larger increase.
There are more people in Nunavut that need legal services than the Government.
My question is, why is this increase smaller in legal services than the internal legal services?
Perhaps I could get my Deputy Minister to respond.
The Legal Services Board has an overall increase of about 240 thousand dollars.
It does not all show up under Compensation and Benefits because the lawyers that are employed by the Board are not public servants.
They are hired under contract and also they also use lawyers who are private lawyers and paid on a fee basis.
Overall there is a significant increase that was intended to reflect the costs of the court circuit and so on.
I know that there is a comparison being made with the lawyer support services internal to the Government.
That reflects the change that was made during the last fiscal year.
In the midst of the year, the Department of Sustainable Development transferred funds to the Department of Justice to fund an additional lawyer who will do some work specifically for that department, because it has been a very busy department with all the work that they are doing on legal matters.
Ms. Williams: Who does the contracts for Legal Services when the lawyers are being contracted?
Depending on the client if the client can afford the service of a lawyer then they pay it themselves.
So the client has to apply to the Legal Services Board to see if they are eligible and to seek support for legal assistance. So the Legal Services Board at the end pays the lawyer for the services rendered.
Does that come under Contract Services 672 thousand dollars?
There are two categories the 672 thousand dollars is for; the lawyers that are under the Legal Services Board, and for lawyers from the private sector, it is at 915 thousand.
My next question is was that both of them, Contract Services and Fees and Payments stay exactly the same to the dollar.
There is no increase or is everything exactly the same thing happening for the last three years?
Ms. Sanders: Qujannamiik, Itsivautaq.
There’s a little bit of estimating going on as to the costs and the additional amount was put under travel and transportation because the financial people were understanding that it is the costs of the court circuits that cause the costs for legal aid.
But the reality is that part of that money, the new money that’s been put under travel and transportation will actually go to fees and payments for private bar lawyers who are going on those court circuits as well and I think that when the budget comes back next year, when we’ve actually seen where the money was distributed we’ll have a clearer idea and some of those monies may be moved from one category to another, within this same branch.
I would just like to understand better.
These lawyers that are contracted are many from outside of Nunavut?
Hon. Paul Okalik: There’s not a big private bar here in Nunavut unfortunately, we’d like to see more practicing here in Nunavut.
I’m just wondering how many lawyers are in Legal Services Board that are serving Nunavut and I don’t think there are many.
Is the department or the board, can the board get more lawyers on staff instead of paying almost 1 million dollars for fees and payments?
Therefore, these people, if they stay up here they would know and appreciate better about the communities of Nunavut and the people that we’re supposed to be serving.
We have hired, the Legal Services Board had hired more counsel.
There were a lot of vacancies in the past but fortunately we’ve been successful in recruiting new lawyers.
So that’s very promising.
We’d like see more of the private sectors also develop so we pay higher fees for Nunavut based lawyers for their operations so we try to promote the private sector so that the people of Nunavut could have more options in seeking legal counsel.
Under the Inuit Court workers program I just wondered what the numbers would be.
I just want to give you an example.
We have a court worker in each community, that’s been working for a number of years and that position’s been there for a number of years.
For the compensation and benefits, would there be any increase to their wages for last few years or do we have something in plan for them so the wages can be going up for employees that serve long, I guess long services for that community?
The reason why I’m saying this is, it was brought to my attention that some of the court workers were not paid enough for what they do in that community.
Was there any increase to those, to some of the long service workers in that area?
Those court workers are hired by the, like for Kugluktuk they would be under the Kitikmeot Law Centre, so, we do not have control over how much they’re paid at this point, but we want to review that with each of the current bodies that are in place so that the people that are serving our constituents get proper recognition.
Mr. Havioyak: Okay, it’s good that you’re reviewing that.
I guess the next question would be how soon you can be reviewing these new; I’ll just say wages, for those long service workers in the area?
Hon. Paul Okalik: Currently we’re in discussion with the federal government.
The federal government have undertaken a national review of all legal aid associated costs.
So we’re hopeful that we can get some additional money from the federal government to provide additional funds to these bodies.
Would you like to continue Mr. Havioyak?
Under the Legal Services Board, is there an actual board?
Yes, there is a Legal Services Board.
Are there members from each region on this board?
Yes, under the Legal Services Board, the head office is in Iqaluit and they represent all of Nunavut.
There are appointed members from each region.
In the regions, there are 26 communities.
Do each of the communities have legal services offices?
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): Yes there are two offices.
If we were to look at the Baffin, there is a Legal Services Board office in Iqaluit and there’s also an office in the High Arctic, in Pond Inlet and they’re administered separately by the regions and they are able to appoint individuals to this board to represent their region.
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): So, it’s not made of members from each community, just from those two.
Yes that’s how it’s being run.
Total operations and maintenance 2 million 136 thousand dollars.
I apologise, I’m on 5-10.
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): I don’t think we can vote.
We don’t have a quorum at present.
While we’re dealing with the main estimates we need a quorum.
It was not possible to vote without a quorum but we have a quorum now.
Moving onto 5-12, Justice.
Lawyer Support Services.
Would the minister know how many lawyers are in Nunavut?
Within the government, we know how many lawyers there are in the Government of Nunavut but there are independent lawyers along with Inuit Associations who retain lawyers so we’re not sure of the total number in Nunavut.
Under Compensation and Benefits 1 million 804 thousand dollars we have staff here as well and it talks about lawyers, could he explain what this is for?
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): I apologise, I didn’t understand his question.
Could he rephrase his question?
Mr. Iqaqrialu, could you please rephrase your question?
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): Under Compensation and Benefits, there’s 1 million 804 thousand dollars under Lawyer Support Services.
What would this go towards since it talks about staff?
Perhaps my deputy can respond.
This section covers two divisions within the Department of Justice; the legislation division which drafts the legislation so there are lawyers, translators and support staff in that division and also there is the legal and constitutional division.
There are legal counsel there who advise all the departments of government.
Also within that division there is the Public Trustees Office. So the staff in the Public Trustees Office are also included in the salary and compensation and benefits.
The increases relate to the additional lawyer that was transferred, the funding was transferred from Sustainable Development to hire a lawyer to do their work and also partial funding for an unfunded position that we had in the department that was added in.
Do you want to continue, Mr. Iqaqrialu?
There’s a little over 1 million dollars for compensation and benefits and I know it’s going towards the Nunavut people for the employees but I just wondered if there could be some money that can be accessed by independent lawyers of Nunavut.
The reason is, we already have employees and these lawyers could access some extra funding, but I just wanted to get some clarification on that, in terms of exactly what it’s for.
There are all kinds of different staff members, such as legal drafters and the translators that translate the legislation into Inuktitut and French.
We have to look at the legislation that is written, they have to draft them and have them translated and there are also other things that they have to do, such as agreements between governments that the lawyers have to deal with.
So those are the types of things that we’re talking about on this page.
Chairperson (interpretation): We’re on page 5-12 I have some more people on my list.
It’s part of the previous question I asked earlier.
Is there an increase in the government’s lawyers?
Is that why the compensation and benefits has increased?
Perhaps my deputy minister can respond to that.
There is one full additional PY or government lawyer position that shows up there.
That’s one that was added in during the year last year when Sustainable Development provided funding to have a lawyer that would do their work specifically.
And there is also funding to cover part of the cost of an unfunded position that we had.
So it’s increasing the complement on paper by funding a position that we already had somebody working in because of the demands of the legal work.
Last year under 2001/2002, there was 25 thousand, then it was revised and it is now 75 thousand.
Now in 2002/2003, it is now 345 thousand.
It seems to be increasing.
Perhaps the government is adding more services.
That’s my question and looking at it under fees and payments, that has also increased.
Why are there increases in these areas?
Sometimes we have to get representation from outside the government, such as lawyers to contract them to do services for such as legal things that we have to do.
It is also utilized for employing Inuktitut speaking people.
Those are the reasons for the increases.
Yes, it’s clear and I realize that the government has to be able to make sure that their legislation is right on so they don’t have problems.
But in 2001-2002, there was 25 thousand dollars, under revised the estimates, there’s 75 thousand and this year there’s 145 thousand dollars for contract services.
Is it because the government has to have lawyer’s services to protect them?
And under fees and payments, there’s also been a slight increase.
I just wondered is it because the government is starting to create more documents to protect the government?
Is that why you have been increasing your contract services and fees and payments?
Yes, we are starting to find out all the things that we have to do.
That’s why we have to hire outside legal advice and we realized that and we’re starting to do that now and because we can’t do it ourselves with the lawyers that we have on staff.
We sometimes also do translation of the legislation.
That’s why we have increased the funding.
We all know that the government has a lawyer who resides in Ottawa, that is being paid by the Government of Nunavut.
Do you feel the legal services that are provided to you will be increasing every year or would it stay at approximately that 145 thousand dollar range and do you foresee in the future whether you are going to need a lot more outside contract lawyers?
We would like to keep it that way but we can’t really control what’s going happen in the future.
We wish that it could be that price range all the time but we don’t know the future holds and we don’t have any control over the amount of funding that we will be needing from year to year.
We will try to keep it at that price range but if it can’t be done then it has to increase.
I’m not talking about the supplementary funding that we have to request but the question that I’m asking is, even though we usually have to do a supplementary appropriation, what I’m asking about is the day to day legal services that have to be provided to the Government of Nunavut.
Do you foresee any requirement for more money for the day to day operations of the government with regards to legal services?
Yes, sometimes we cannot use the services of the lawyers in Nunavut.
Sometimes we have to do the translations of the legislation and we have no choice but to translate them.
And there’s beginning to be more demand on the government for legal advice, so that’s why we hire outside lawyers.
We’re going to be doing that all the time but as soon as we find out what kinds of services we need assistance with, there are many pieces of legislation that we also have to deal with and that is the reason for the increase to date.
The 227 thousand dollars, which is an increase, there are also those people that draft bills, do you have those drafters in place to do legislation and is that in the contract services?
Is that in the 227 thousand?
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): This was already explained about Sustainable Development needing a drafter, so it’s part of this money that’s in here.
We have one and a half PYs.
It’s part of the money that’s for Sustainable Development.
Yes it’s part of the money for the half PY. Thank you Mr Chairman.
How many drafters do we have in the government?
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): We have two.
Just to let the members know, we’ll be taking a break.
We’ll be taking a break for about ten minutes at three o’clock.
The 227 thousand, under Compensation and Benefits, there’s been an increase.
I was just wondering if you could explain what the increase is for?
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Because there was one lawyer that had to assist the Department of Sustainable Development, and there are also other items that the lawyers have to deal with.
So we have one and a half PYs for the services to the government of lawyers.
It’s now 1.5 PYs that we have.
If we can get back to Lawyer’s Support Services, page 5-12.
Page 5-13.
There’s an increase of 384 thousand in the compensation and benefits.
Is it because you have more staff?
Chairperson (interpretation): Just to let the members know that when you’re light is on if you want to speak privately you can just push your button to mute the microphone.
If you wait until I recognize you as soon as I recognize you, the button lights up.
Just to let the members know and the ministers.
There’s one PY for the senior Justice of Peace that we have hired.
So that’s why there’s been an increase for the compensation and benefits and also the Nunavut Employees’ Union salary increase.
Under travel and transportation there’s been a huge increase for travel and transportation.
I just wondered what the increase is for.
Can you explain to me what exactly what that increase is for?
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
There’s a lot of communities that gets visits from the courts, so whenever there’s going to be a trial then those judges have to go to the communities.
That’s what it’s for, their transportation and travel.
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): The travel and transportation in the amount of 1 million, 289 thousand dollars, I think we use the legislation of the federal government.
I just want to find out whether this is the case.
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): Yes, in some parts, and in some parts to do with family laws and the legislation that we draft or we provide that have been passed by the Legislature here and partly the federal government.
Because judges have their own say and they sometimes also like to hear from the elders before proceeding.
Under registries and court services.
If they used the federal government’s laws does the federal government provide some money for travel and transportation within Nunavut?
Under the law the lawyers have to be paid not by the federal government but even though the judges are paid from a separate salary, and it’s like this all over Canada.
Chairperson (interpretation): Under 5-13.
Total operations and maintenance 5 million 335 thousand dollars.
On this page 5-14, 5-15 on same page.
Just a general comment and a question regarding the community corrections program administers on land camp operations and open custody facilities.
Could the minister tell me currently how many outposts or on the land camps are currently running in Nunavut?
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): I have four of them in the whole of Nunavut.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Mr. McLean: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): At the moment, there are two in operation in Cape Dorset, one outside Pangnirtung and one in Arviat, outside Arviat.
Mr. McLean (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I’m a firm believer in these outpost camps and I have been for the last three years because I think where you have one facility now in earlier in the session I was bringing up how much it would cost and how much it’s costing us currently to incarcerate people like in Yellowknife and in the south.
There’s belief among everybody that I talk to that incarcerating people in the south is not working because, I’m sure they are doing a lot in rehabilitations for people who are incarcerated down south, but when they are rehabilitating people in the south, they are rehabilitating people for the general population people of Canada.
Nunavummiut have different ways in how they are raised and how they are healed and things like that and I am a big believer in outpost camp.
And I thought today we would have more than four or five.
Now maybe the reason we don’t have any I heard in my community that they are initially expensive to set up and I know the government doesn’t have the resources to go build an outpost camp in every community.
If an operator decides that he wants to start his own outpost camp, it is very difficult to access funding.
There is the CIP program for our community; I don’t think the Hamlets should be running outpost camps.
I think individual people who are responsible should be running outpost camps but the reason they can’t is because the capital costs of buying a couple snow machines, boats and motors and building cabins, a proper outpost camp with just the bare necessities, you are probably looking at 100 thousand dollars in capital.
And I know the government can’t afford that, but what might work is if you had interested individuals in a community, whether it is a development corporation or a group of elders or somebody like that, if they were definitely interested in setting up an outpost camp, and they expressed the concern if they went to the Department of Justice and said yes we are interested in setting up an outpost camp, we could put the capital together ourselves.
But for somebody to go out and get that capital as a businessman, if they want to set up an outpost camp they need a letter from government saying yes if you do so require and we can guarantee you X numbers of days through the year, that individual operator who has a credit rating or history or something like that may be able to go to a bank and show the letter of intent to the bank, they may be able to go out and finance the establishment and buy a couple of snow machines, or a couple of boats and motors or some building materials to build this outpost camp in the community if they see fit.
So would your department entertain that if an organisation or group came to you and said listen, can you give us a letter of support saying that if we could establish this outpost camp, you would guarantee us X number of individuals.
I know you can’t guarantee, you know, criminals in an institution and I don’t want to be heartless in saying it, but you can’t.
But we all do know on the more serious side that crime in Nunavut is going up.
We’ve got all the statistics to show it.
What I’m asking you here, would it be possible if an organisation or could you fit it into some kind of policy that if individuals want to set up an outpost camp, they would be given some kind of letter of support, so they could take that to the bank or take it to the business credit corporation to finance the establishment of an outpost camp for capital?
That was a long question.
Yes, what we are trying to do is provide or express our support for these programs.
Through this budget we’re introducing a supervisor dedicated for outpost camps because we want to see more.
So we would love to see more and any way that we can promote more outpost camps, we’ll try and we’ll entertain any offers that may be brought to us.
Mr. McLean: So in a nutshell, if an organisation or a group of individuals came to the Justice Department or the individual that you’re bringing on side to look after outpost camps, and said yes, we are interested but in order for us to build this camp, we need an operating line from a bank, would your department be prepared to give them that letter supporting them and committing to them that they would give these individuals to make this camp.