EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
It is a sad thing to see 30-35 kids start kindergarten and if you track them through your community to grade 12 there are one or two graduates, which seems to be happening in Cambridge Bay quite a bit, no fault of the educators.
They work hard to try keep the kids in school. But, we know, once they drop out, at some point they are going to come back to try to get into Arctic College or go for adult basic education.
So, there is going to be a cost to the government if they don’t stay in school.
They have to get an education.
I was wondering if the minister could expand a little bit on the grants and contributions.
It is a $40 million chunk of money there.
I’m wondering if he could give us more details on that.
If the member would allow me, I’ll just go through the cost categories.
In the main estimates, another $20,383,000 for grants and contributions; $5.6 or $5.7 million is allocated to student financial assistance.
And that’s grants made to individuals to support their attendance at the post-secondary institution.
College contributions, that’s the grants from the Department of Education and the government which support Nunavut Arctic College and provides for the operational and maintenance costs at the community and regional level, that’s $14.528 million.
We also have some money in the literacy program fund of one hundred thousand as we as… One hundred forty-eight thousand, which is part of the trades program, delivering for a total of $20,383,000 under the grants and contributions.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Minister Picco.
Do you have any further questions Mr. Peterson?
Are we running this information off page G-12?
It that correct?
Hon. Ed Picco: Yes, that is correct. Yes.
Mr. Peterson: Okay, then I could ask questions on G-12. Correct?
Chairman (interpretation): That is correct.
On student financial assistance…. The other day we were asked to approve an increase, a supplementary appropriation increase of, I think it was, $1.9 million to help students to further their post-secondary education.
I think that we asked the minister if he is anticipating any increases again this year, and I’m wondering if he could tell us whether there will be an increase to students. Will there be an increase in costs? Will we be asked to provide additional funds over and above what we approved in this Supplementary Appropriation Bill?
The $1.965 million dollars that was put into the FANS or financial allowance for Nunavut students is, I believe, a fair number.
I can’t say at this time if there is going to be more uptakes on the program.
The increase was because of uptakes on the program.
There were more students accessing FANS.
And, our projections are that this amount should be suitable, contingent on the number of student enrolled.
Again, this fall more students may be enrolled in different programs.
So, we believe it is a fair number.
I understand that the policy that we use for FANS is one we inherited from the Northwest Territories.
I am wondering if the minister could indicate whether his department will be presenting legislation or revising the legislation to better reflect the need of Nunavut students.
Chairman (interpretation): Minister Picco.
I am just looking at some of the numbers under the FANS amount.
The student financial assistance program itself has been looked at over the last few years.
For example, the living allowance we looked at, and reviewed and upgraded in 2001.
There may be some opportunities within the current framework to look at the program itself.
That is something that we are looking at in the department itself.
We are looking at how we are moving forward in the different areas that we talked about and reformed regarding the education system at the department that I have spoken about in the House….
I am wondering if the minister could tell us if all Nunavut students who apply to the FANS are eligible for the same amounts of funding, for the tuition, and accommodations, and travel.
Chairman: Mr. Minister.
Yes, they are equal, depending on what program the student themselves would fall under when they are making their applicatory process.
I understand from my reading of the FANS that there is an ethnicity component to the FANS.
In other words, non-Inuit students who apply for the programs don’t get the same amount of funding as the Inuit students.
That is regardless of whether they were born and raised in Nunavut and gone through Kindergarten to grade 12. They are still lumped in with the non-Inuit students that come from down south who applied for the FANS Program.
I am wondering if the minister could comment, if there will be any changes in that regard.
The supplementary grant is only available to Inuit Nunavut beneficiaries.
That has been in place since April 1, 1999.
Of course it has been in place in the Northwest Territories.
The idea of having an extra grant based on the situations many of the beneficiaries find themselves in….
They are coming from smaller communities and they don’t have the luxury in many cases that some of the non-aboriginal students have, where they actually have parents working and so on.
As the minister responsible, one of the things we are looking at is the different programs under the department and what is available.
In many jurisdictions, not just Nunavut, we try to give a leg-up to students who may not have that opportunity.
That is what we are seeing here in this program, itself.
So the supplementary grant is provided only to students who are Inuk within Nunavut.
There have been some concerns raised by residents and students who are non-beneficiaries, that they were not getting the same type of grant.
That is a policy decision that needs to be, I guess, reviewed again by the department as they move forward.
I understand what the minister is saying.
We, as the government, we invest heavily in education.
We start educating our kids from Kindergarten all the way through to grade 12.
As a public government we represent all the kids in our schools regardless of who happens to be their parents.
We want these young kids to stay in school, go off to university, college, tech-school, whatever, and come back and contribute meaningfully to the development of Nunavut.
We should make the programs accessible to all of them.
I am wondering if the minister could comment, or tell us what the extra amount is every month that a beneficiary student would get.
Hon. Ed Picco: I’m just trying to find if I’ve got the actual numbers here.
If the member is asking me how much a non-Inuk student gets and how much an Inuk student gets if they were in the same program and in the same location, taking the same classes…. Is that the question?
Chairman: Mr. Peterson, is that the question?
Mr. Peterson: If I were an Inuit student, how much extra would I get if I were going to the University of Alberta or the University of Toronto? How much extra a month would I get for going to university in one of those cities?
Chairman: Minister Picco.
The Inuk beneficiary student who is receiving the financial assistance from Nunavut under the FANS Program could apply, as I said earlier, for the supplementary allowance or benefit.
They would get that.
They would also get the living allowance available for them based on, again, their location.
For example, if it was in the North it may be different than what you would be getting in Halifax.
The actual amount would depend on the situation of the student.
I think when you look at the program that is in place, the Government of Nunavut is mandated under the Land Claims to support Article 23, and I believe the programs that we have put in place support our Inuit beneficiary students and the processes for Article 23.
At the same time, we realize as a public government there are rules and regulations in place, and so on.
But this is a program of the Government of Nunavut, and as I indicated earlier it’s something that we’re looking at, me as minister, who have just been in the position for the last couple of months, to see what happens here and to see how we move forward and so on.
But, I believe it does support the policy of Article 23, and it does support the needs of our Inuit beneficiary students who are furthering their secondary education.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Peterson.
Those are all valid points that the minister made.
But, there are non-Inuit students that probably, I’m sure there are a few out there, require as much help as an Inuit student.
Years and years ago I went off to university.
I got help from the government of the Northwest Territories.
It was appreciated quite a bit by myself, but I still had to supplement my monthly living.
I had to get part-time jobs.
I had to work in the summer.
It was tough to get through, but at the end of it all I came back to the Northwest Territories and Nunavut.
I was able to put my education to use.
I hope I have anyway.
Someone around here might disagree with me.
We have to encourage our young people, give them every opportunity, and assist those Inuit and non-Inuit students wherever possible with extra monies to encourage them to come back to Nunavut once they get their education.
And then when they get back here, find a way to help them find employment, whether it is with the government or with other organizations.
I think we should keep that in mind.
I wonder…. My next question will be on the Nunavut Arctic College budget.
As I read your report the other day, that you tabled, your annual funding was decreased by $800,000 over the last fiscal year.
I’m wondering if you could explain why there is a decrease in the funding for Nunavut Arctic College, if we want to help our adults and our students to get an education.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Peterson. Mr. Picco.
Just quickly, on the issue on the students….
Nunavut, by far…. when we look at the monies that we put into students whether they are non-beneficiary students or beneficiary students, it is above and beyond what you see in Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, or New Brunswick.
We give them return tickets back and forth.
They get basic grants that are forgivable and so on and so forth.
So, there is a good system in place, and I think we should be cognitive of that fact.
The issue around the college itself…. that stems out of some of the things we’ve already talked about in the House, on the budget makeup or the framework that was put in place.
Mr. Peterson: Thanks.
I read in the old Nunavut Arctic College Annual Report for 2002-03 that they were writing off $600-$700,000 in uncollectible grants and contributions.
It was sitting there for the longest time.
I’ll give you a precise amount here.
I highlighted it.
It was…
Quit trying to hide under your desk.
It is the wrong desk, too. It is over there.
It is not under your desk.
While there was a board of governors that approved the write-off of $652,000 in 2002-03….
I’m wondering if you’re asking us to approve $14,528,000 or is going to be…. You have financial controls in place now to ensure that the money will be put to proper use, and they won’t be looking at allowances for bad debt or write offs?
My understanding is…. Now the president of Nunavut Arctic College, Mr. Mac Clendenning, is available to enter the room and be just next to me while we are issuing some of these statements on Nunavut Arctic College.
So, with the members’ indulgence, I’ll ask Mr. Clendenning to come forward.
At the same time, while he’s coming forward, I think I’ll talk about some of these write-offs.
As an example, Mr. Peterson is a former businessperson.
If Mr. Peterson, in his former business life, on a budget of $14 million had a 10 percent write-off of bad debts, that would be $1.4 million.
If Mr. Peterson, in his former life, had a 5 percent write-off of bad debts, he would be very happy.
It’s not extraneous to look at the amount that we are talking about here on the actual amount forgiven, and, I believe, part of these forgiven students loans, and sometimes on debts that the college is talking about.
So, I believe that would be the answer to the questions.
Now that Mr. Clendenning is next to me, if we could, Mr. Chairman, with your indulgence, ask Mr. Peterson to just state his question again.
We’ll have Mr. Clendenning review that issue.
And as a furtherance to that, I should say that the college has done some things to tighten up the financial control.
We actually have a position in place now, a financial officer for the college, based in Arviat, who is doing an excellent job for us and on some of the other issues.
So, with that I’ll ask if I could have Mr. Peterson to repeat his question for the benefit of Mr. Clendenning.
Chairman (interpretation): Mr. Clendenning, sitting beside the Minister.
I guess it’s okay.
Mr. Clendenning. Go ahead.
Mr. Clendenning: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could ask the member to repeat the questions, please.
Mr. Peterson: Is this like a hockey game where I get more time added?
I was asking the minister…. I was reading the 2002-03 annual report and
under accounts receivable there is an allowance for bad debts for 2002-03, $652,168.
I do not know what it is for.
It could be for grants and contributions. But, we will be asked to approve $14,528,000.
My concern would be whether you have sufficient financial controls. Do you have a bursar or purser in place for those top accountants who look after and track the funds and make sure that it is properly used?
Chairman: Point of order for Mr. Curley.
Mr. Curley: My point of order is that I believe we just went through the corporate services, which deals with all of these accounting responsibilities and so on.
The only small item that refers to the Arctic College is $100,000, not a $14 million item or something that impacts on Arctic College.
I am speaking to the Chair.
Chairman (interpretation): It is under E-12, under college contribution. (Interpretation ends.) Mr. Clendenning can answer the question.
Mr. Clenndening: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The money that was written off in 2002 as a bad debt, but…. the accommodation of old outstanding receivables, accommodation of the tuition fees or monies that were due from third parties that have been outstanding for a considerable amount of time…. They had not been able to collect them at the time when the auditor did the audits.
Because they were outstanding for so long, they recommended that the amount be written off and the amount that was written off for that particular year, $652,000 dollars, was for accounts that were outstanding for two or three years before that.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Clendenning.
So, could Mr. Clendenning indicate: were they public monies or were they third party funds that were written off or could not clear?
There were not public monies from the Government of Nunavut that we approved under appropriations.
Please, bear with me.
(Interpretation ends.)
His time is up, so, I am going to limit you to that last question, Mr. Peterson.
You can answer that.
Mr. Curley will be next.
Mr. Clendenning: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As I said earlier, it was a combination of accounts receivable for tuition fees as well as for some third party contracts that we had completed, but that money has not been collected.
There is also a problem with our accounts receivable system in the year 2001, when we were switching from one accounts receivable system to another. In the two years, the system has not been reconciled.
So, there is a possibility that some of this money had been collected but had not been properly credited to the accounts receivable.
It was because of the fact that we were not able to crack it that the auditors were not able to confirm that is what happened.
They recommended that we write it off.
The item that we are talking about, because it is important and…. Even if there were people that did not go out to college, when they get older I am sure that they would like to go back to school.
It doesn’t matter what colour you are, even if you are Inuk, black or white it is very important that these people go back to school.
If a person quits school when they’re a teenager, if they want to go back to school when they become adults…. If you are black, or white, or yellow, if you’re Inuk, we’re going to help them.
This is what I wanted to say.
In the schools….adults go back to school when they start thinking about their future.
Even when they become adults, they want to go back to school because they want to be part of Nunavut and help in Nunavut and get jobs.
We have to be open for all of them.
I am going to ask the minister: when kids go to school and when they’re not bilingual, which of these finish their high school?
Which ones do graduate?
Is it an Inuk who is bilingual, or is it unilingual Inuit?
Which of them finish high school?
I’m just going to see if I can get the breakdown on the grade 12 graduates by ethnicity.
Bear with us for just one second.
I do have that number somewhere.
Mr. Chairman, if I may, I may ask the deputy minister just to step back into the chair next to me.
She may have that number for us.
I don’t have that number with me right now.
We will get that number.
Oh, I do have it.
Let me see. Alright.
I’ll do the graduate numbers.
In 1996, there were 58 graduates and that’s in the Northwest Territories as a whole.
There were no Inuit graduates.
In 1999, I’ll flash ahead three years, the total graduates in 1999 was 128; 104 were Inuk.
In 2000, there were 134; 118 were Inuk.
In 2001, there were 128; 103 were Inuk.
In 2002, there 131 graduates; 117 were Inuk.
And, in the year 2003, there were 138 graduates of grade 12, and the Inuk graduates were 116.
So, I think that’s a pretty good number.
I hope that’s the information that the member was looking for.
I can also add that as a high school graduation requirement, the students who were receiving a grade 12 diploma must have passed at least one department exam, either English 30 or English 33.
And, that would be the Alberta exam at that time; when we get to the grades 10, 11, and 12 we’re using the Alberta curriculum.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): For the adults that went to the adult learning…. when they go back to school or if they’re going to be going to trade school, under the item that we’re talking about, the question that I asked…. that I see, people who do not finish school, when they go back to school we have to pay their fees.
The kids that tend to quit school from K–12….
I feel that when they become bilingual they are able to finish their grade 12.
Is that a fact, minister?
Hon. Ed Picco: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe the member is correct.
If it is okay I would elaborate more on this. I think what the member is stating is correct.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): I will ask again about non-Inuit from K–12. Is the statistic….
Do they all graduate?
Do the majority of them graduate from grade 12?
I don’t have any numbers in front of me that indicate what the percentage is of non-aboriginal students that would enter Kindergarten and would graduate Grade 12.
What that number would be, would it be 80 percent or 90 percent….
We know in a total of 100 students that enter Kindergarten, we graduate 25. So, in a lot of the ways it is about a 75 percent attrition rate at the school level.
Many of those students go back to school in various forms of adult basic education, and so on.
What I have been talking about over the last several weeks is how do we stem that kind?
How do we change the number and lower that attrition rate?
So, I don’t know what percentage of that is Inuk or non-Inuk.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): What I understood the first time around from the response is that we have to give more financial support to the Inuit.
My question is regarding the non-Inuit: do they have problems in learning the English language from K–12?
Again, when you are looking on the academic side it would depend on the first language of the student.
If the first language of the student was English then they would probably have an easier time to learn the English language in that type of curriculum than for the students whose language was a secondary language, was not English, an English-as-a-second-language student, as an example.
So, it would depend.
I agree. I think I get the member’s point in that he is bringing us into an area where supporting them…. More support, I guess, was given to Inuit students because of some of the differences that we are dealing with.
On the other question, if I may, I think that is what the member is saying in support of the department.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): A supplementary question.
When we go to school from Kindergarten to grade 12, we learn English and we also learn our culture.
So for the non-Inuit, which culture are they taught?
It would depend on where the child was and what the predominant language of instruction was at that time.
That is why we talked about the language of instruction.
Let me use an example.
If a student was in a smaller community in Nunavut, lets say…
Chairman: Point of order from Mr. Tootoo.
A point of order that the questions that are coming out, and the responses, fall either under curriculum and school services or school operations.
I think it might be a more appropriate use of time to address those questions to that section in the budget and not underneath adult and post-secondary services.
We are on page G-11. Adult learning and post-secondary services.
We will be getting into school services curriculum in school services a few pages down the road.
I had a couple of questions just on the student financial assistance that’s on there.
The minister indicated earlier, and I just want to ask for clarification, that the money we approved in the Supplementary Appropriation Bill went strictly for an increase in the number of students accessing the program.
Now, my recollection is that was part of the rationale for the increase. But, also there was an increase made to the living allowance under the supplementary grant that also made up some of that increase.
I’d just like to ask if the minister could clarify that.
The $1.965 million increase went directly to the FANS budget and was a result of some of the things that we did talk about.
For example, a more increased student uptake on the programs and some of the other costs associated with the program itself.
So, the member is correct.
The $1.965 million went directly from the supplementary that we approved in the House, that line item, just that line item in the Department of Education’s budget, to the financial assistance for Nunavut students, or the FANS program.
I know it went there.
What I was asking is, what was the breakdown for that?
My understanding is that some of that increase was, as the minister indicated earlier, a direct result of increased usage of students applying for the program.
Some of it was also a result of an increase to the living allowances under the supplementary grant that was approved, I think last year, in this House.
So, I would just like to ask him if he can clarify exactly where that increase went.
The total increase of $1.965 million voted by the supplementary went to the FANS program.
And, it went to FANS programs, of course, for different categories within the FANS.
We had increased the amount of the living allowance under FANS by 20 percent, so some of that increase would have also accounted for that increase in the FANS.
As well, that was one of the other major areas, which we said was the more students accessing FANS.
That would mean more students who would be on financial assistance for Nunavut, whether in post-secondary in Nunavut or in the south.
For example, if they were at Arctic College, then they’re at Nunavut Arctic College, or indeed attending university in south.
Does the minister have any idea of how much of it went toward that 20 percent increase in the living allowances for under the supplementary grant?
How much of his total budget, of the FANS budget, went for that?
Chairman: Mr. Picco.
Well, the individual rates increased.
So, it would be difficult to say out of the total FANS amount that’s in the budget what portion of the $1.965 million it was, but the rates increased by 20 percent.
So, as an example, the rates increased from $675 a month to $825 a month.
That’s not very much, I know, but it was part of the 20 percent increase that was put in place.