EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Unlike the government, the private sector or private homes don’t have access to funds to carry out all the work. I believe the information that you’re developing, once proven that they are worthwhile doing, that they will be passed on to municipalities. I wonder why the municipalities are not part of that pilot project.
Yes, I have recently had meetings with the Executive Director of NAM and we have actually agreed to do a presentation at the NAM meeting that’s coming up next month.
So this is something that they’re very keen on learning about and they would like to receive more information. So we will be working with the municipalities and letting them know about this.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Boddy.
Yes, it is a very interesting project. For the one that is a pilot project, can the minister or her officials explain and give us an example of what the actual evidence of energy cost saving projects would look like?
I think it’s interesting to have some real understanding because all Nunavummiut are certainly challenged with having to pay a particularly high cost of energy. So I think it would be useful, even to the members here, if your officials can give us some examples of how the cost saving energy projects, in terms of buildings, are happening.
Yes, we could certainly achieve that by a form of a report and present it to the members.
Mr. Curley: Actually, I was asking for some comments here.
I even read on the floor here that the pilot project probably has some certain terms and conditions, or whatnot, or objectives listed. So it would be useful to at least, even verbally here, get some ideas on exactly how it’s being done.
Certainly, we can do that.
So therefore, I will ask Mr. Boddy to respond to the question or to the remarks.
On these energy retrofit projects, we target three areas - electricity, fuel consumption, and water consumption. There are many different ways to approach these things.
In fact, for that retrofit project that I was talking about for the pilot project for Iqaluit, there are close to 400 different things that are going to be done to building and some of them can be more insulation, sealing up, putting in better windows, improving the mechanical systems, changing the lighting systems, the flow of water for toilets, that sort of thing.
There are many different areas and like I said, I would be happy to maybe expand upon that even more in the form of a report if that would be useful.
We would certainly appreciate that. I, for one, would want to see that report.
Also, if the minister could at least commit to tabling the energy guide that is being updated because I think that would also be useful, not only for the members but the private sectors as well in Nunavut, and if that could be done so that we can begin to think about energy savings; we certainly have a lot of room to do that here in Nunavut. I wonder if the minister would be prepared to share with us that document I quoted and table it at some appropriate time when it’s completed.
We’re working with the other departments. So once that is completed, we certainly would like to table it and give it to the members.
We’re on J-8. (interpretation ends) Branch Summary.
Total Operations and Maintenance, to be Voted. $24,140,000.
Chairman: We will go to J-9.
Mr. Evyagotailak: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On October 22 of last year, you announced that the new fuel price will not enable the government’s Petroleum Product Stabilization Fund to maintain its legislated limits with the cost of the 2007 fuel resupply.
Your department’s draft 2008-09 main estimates indicate a deficit of $9.5 million.
Will you be introducing an amendment to the Revolving Funds Act when the Legislative Assembly reconvenes next month, and if not, why not?
We’re on the information item on J-9.
I believe you already answered that question, minister, so I leave it at your discretion to respond.
I would like to ask the members if Susan Makpah can come to the witness table and she is the Director for PPD.
I would like to ask the members if the Director for PPD can come to the witness table.
Chairman (interpretation): Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the official to the witness table.
Thank you, Sergeant-at-Arms. I would also like to thank Mr. Boddy for sitting at the witness table.
Can we get a response to the question?
Maybe I should introduce the witness so that I can get her to answer the question. On my left is Susan Makpah.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you for introducing her. (interpretation ends) Can you repeat your question? Mr. Evyagotailak.
On October 22 of last year, you announced that the new fuel price will not enable the government’s Petroleum Product Stabilization Fund to maintain its legislated limits with the cost of the 2007 fuel resupply. Your department’s draft 2008-09 main estimates indicate a deficit of $9.5 million.
I’ll have Susan Makpah, the Director of Petroleum Products Division, respond.
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) I would have to consult with the Department of Finance because they would have to make an amendment to the Petroleum Products Stabilization Fund.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Ms. Makpah.
Thank you, Ms. Makpah.
Your department’s business plan indicates that a reorganization of the Petroleum Products Division has taken place. What changes were made in this reorganization?
I’ll have Ms. Makpah respond.
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) The changes we made to the PPD reorganization were that the staff at the offices in Cambridge Bay, Pond Inlet, and Rankin Inlet now report directly to PPD Headquarters instead of to the CGS Regional Directors.
That’s the change we made and also, we wanted to increase our PYs. From that change, we have added four new positions into the organization of PPD Headquarters.
Thanks again, Ms. Makpah.
A few years ago, the government proposed a transfer of the functions of the PPD to the Qulliq Energy Corporation. The Legislative Assembly did not approve the requested funding to do this.
What is your position today as minister on the idea of moving the PPD to the Qulliq Energy Corporation?
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) We were told about two years ago that the transfer of PPD to QEC was cancelled and I don’t know what the position of the GN is on this matter.
Thanks Ms. Makpah.
Your department’s business plan indicates that “GN tank farm facilities are compliant with federal regulations except for our resupply pipeline.
Given the unique circumstances with our pipelines from the shore manifolds there remains ongoing discussion respecting regulatory compliance.”
How much would it cost the Government of Nunavut to be compliant with all of the federal regulations and what discussions are taking place between the Government of Nunavut and federal regulators?
I’ll have Ms. Makpah respond to that.
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) The actual costs have not been determined.
At this time, Environment Canada has not informed us of exactly how they would like to handle the pipeline from the shore to the tank farms. It hasn’t been determined as to how much it is going to cost the Government of Nunavut to comply with the regulations that are going to kick in.
We haven’t heard anything back from Environment Canada to date.
Mr. Evyagotailak: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks Ms. Makpah.
If the Government of Nunavut cannot become fully compliant with federal regulations, what fines or penalties could it face?
Ms. Makpah, please.
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) About a year ago, we contracted a consultant to review all of our tank farms and the only thing we have to do right now is, when this new regulation kicks in from Environment Canada, we will provide the inspection certificates and the information on the tank farms or the tanks themselves.
Right now, I have no idea of how much it would cost the government if we don’t comply with the new regulations. At this time, we have no idea because it hasn’t been implemented to date.
This will be my final question.
Your department’s business plan indicates that it plans to work with the Alberta Research Council and major refineries in the coming year to examine the issue of gasoline specifications.
What does your department hope to achieve in this review?
Ms. Makpah will respond to that question.
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) This project was initiated from the 2004 Gasoline Quality Report that was commissioned by a consultant and there were two recommendations in that report.
The other recommendation was to investigate how the cold environment we live in affects the gasoline.
What the report wanted was for the GN’s PPD to have a joint effort with the Alberta Research Council to see if we have to make any changes to our gasoline specifications.
As per my earlier comments, I have questions I would like to ask while we are on this subject.
The fuel delivery truck in my constituency has broken down more than once and the homeowners end up having to go and get their own fuel.
I would like to know if that is allowable to force people to go and get their own heating fuel, Mr. Chairman.
That’s not supposed to happen but I was informed that the fuel delivery truck in Sanikiluaq had broken down and they had to order the parts in and the truck was down for the time it took for the parts to arrive.
They did not face any risks because all the fuel delivery tanks were filled to capacity and I’m very happy of the fact that they dealt with it right away during the time the fuel truck was down.
I’m talking about the private homeowners. The public housing units’ tanks were all filled and they have a schedule that is followed, but it was not the case with the homeowners’ and private businesses’ fuel tanks.
A homeowner was quite concerned because he owns a company and he had to use five-gallon tanks to fill up his business unit fuel tank. It’s hard to know if the GN should have allowed that or not. This occurred after 5:00 p.m. and there was a $20 fee for service after 5:00.
This individual had to go get his own fuel with five-gallon tanks and he had to deliver that to his own business unit.
This should be investigated to make sure that it’s permissible.
As well, private homeowners who didn’t get fuelled up also created risks of running out of fuel.
If there had been an accident or someone got hurt, what kind of regulations does the Petroleum Product Division or the government have in regard to these matters?
I’ll have Ms. Makpah respond to that question.
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Yes, when the fuel truck broke down, it was impossible to deliver fuel. Our staff (interpretation ends) was prepared to bring fuel to the homeowners but the fuel truck was repaired prior to that.
In terms of call-out fees, (interpretation) the only time they charge fees is after working hours because our fuel delivery guys have staff that need to be paid. Every time there’s a call-out after working hours, they have to charge the fees.
Mr. Kattuk: I can tell you, for instance, if that happened, that I know fuel trucks have broken down twice - last month and this month.
Myself, I had to fill my tank. I bought fuel from the agent and then I delivered the fuel in jerry cans with my snowmobile to my home and I filled my tank. I also know that there was somebody else who did the same.
Aren’t the fuel delivery people supposed to do that? If I buy fuel, don’t they have to deliver it to my tank?
Ms. Makpah will respond to that.
I’m very sorry that your fuel delivery truck broke down, but it was impossible to deliver fuel during the time it was broken down.
When I spoke with the contractor there, (interpretation ends) he was prepared to deliver fuel to the houses. (interpretation) However, the repairs were completed and he still had not made the fuel deliveries. He did say he could deliver the fuel by snowmobile.
Meanwhile, the truck was finally repaired, but the truck was no longer making deliveries. (interpretation ends) He was prepared to deliver fuel (interpretation) using 45-gallon drums if need be.
It also happened last week at my home. My son had to get fuel from the agent and he delivered it himself and filled the tank.
So I’m asking if it’s my job to refuel my tank when the truck is broken.
Hon. Levinia Brown: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) We will review that.
It is unfortunate that this happened and I’m sorry to hear that and we do not wish to see that happen again.  It was impossible to deliver fuel while the delivery truck was broken down in Sanikiluaq.
I understand from my officials that the delivery to private homes differed with some having taken it upon themselves to pick up their own fuel. I will ask my officials to improve that situation and make sure it doesn’t occur again should similar circumstances occur elsewhere. I have heard that the fuel delivery truck has since been repaired.
I prefer to see proper plans in the community and contractors should perform their obligations better in the future.
We will continue to be in communication with the contractors.
My next question, although it might be under capital expenditures, is regarding the replacement requirements for fuel trucks. How old do the fuel trucks have to be in order to be replaced?
The fuel delivery truck was purchased in 2002, so it’s fairly new. Every time they need to get parts, we have to order them from outside Nunavut and that’s why it takes so long. Maybe we should purchase parts and have them available in the communities.
We can look into that and work with the contractors to make sure that these parts are made available in the community.
We do not like to see something like what happened in your community.
This will be my last question. In Sanikiluaq, is the fuel truck owned by the Government of Nunavut?
Yes, the fuel truck is owned the Government of Nunavut.
We will go back to page J-3. (interpretation ends) Department Summary. Community and Government Services.
Detail of Expenditures. Total Operations and Maintenance.
I had a question.
Are we done with J-9?
Chairman (interpretation): If you have a question, I will let you proceed.
Mr. Chairman, my question is on this page under Petroleum Products.
First of all, I would like to welcome the minister and Susan.
It’s getting a little scary with the fuel prices at the international level and I want to make a comment on that.
It’s getting extremely hard up here in Nunavut and it’s very hard to find fuel that’s cheaper than today’s prices.
I didn’t want to rush on this issue.
In 2007, the prices at the international level were approximately 40 percent higher.
That’s my own unofficial calculation and I’m sure that when the bulk fuel is delivered to Nunavut next year, it’s probably going to be a lot more expensive. The government buildings, schools and everything else are going to remain the same but it’s the private homeowners and the hunters who are going to suffer from the increase in prices.
I know that you order four types of oil - gasoline, diesel, AV fuel, and so on.
Do you have some kind of a study in regard to the increasing prices of fuel?
I thank my colleague.
I will have Ms. Makpah respond.
We have spoken with some of the firms, especially the firm that does our fuel testing from Alberta. We have spoken with them about only checking three products, including jet fuel, and we have spoken about no longer testing diesel, (interpretation ends) but Jet A1.
(interpretation) It would help if we just have (interpretation ends) two products that we buy for the territory instead of the Jet A1, diesel and gasoline, and we also have avgas. (interpretation) So if we were to just purchase two products, we would see how much it would actually cost, but this is only in the planning stages.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): If you have only two types of products, I’m sure one of them has to be gasoline.
Would it decrease the cost of home heating fuel or avgas?
Would there be a decrease or would the home heating fuel stay at status quo?
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We’re planning to see (interpretation ends) if we can do that, so we’re going to investigate if it’s going to make a difference in terms of prices.
We have asked them if they could take a look at if... (interpretation) we don’t want to be getting lost but we are planning (interpretation ends) to see if we could take a look at how we could implement this to just buy jet fuel, instead of diesel. (interpretation) We still don’t know (interpretation ends) if there’s a going to be a price change if we did that. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Yes, I would definitely urge you to undertake this review. We tend to think how we can deal with this for a whole year. For example, following our Rules, we have $150 million that will have to be paid for the entire year.
Have you considered bringing it back to the revolving fund (interpretation ends) and spread it over two years instead of one year to the consumer?
(interpretation) So has that been considered, or could you make a recommendation to the Cabinet (interpretation ends) since Nunavummiut cannot afford the prices anymore?
Hon. Levinia Brown (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman and my colleague as well.
We can do a review on this issue and we will include the Petroleum Products Division in this review.
If we find something constructive or another avenue, I will certainly discuss it with my Cabinet colleagues and we can make plans. If the members direct us to do so, I think that the Cabinet can have a meeting on this issue and see what they can do to improve the system.
Mr. Curley: I think it would be worthwhile to look at options. When do you want to recover the total cost of spending that occurred? I think it’s pretty good for a number of retail agents that we have out there when we have to pay back over $150 million in one year.
I say that’s pretty good. Why don’t we do them a favour by saying that we will extend the payment terms so that we don’t jack up the prices like we do with some other agencies?
(interpretation) I want to ask the minister: how are these purchases paid for by the corporations? When you’re buying fuel for Qulliq Energy Corporation, do you give them 100 percent of their required fuel or do you give them a percentage (interpretation ends) of the Nunavut-wide supply?
Hon. Levinia Brown (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman and my colleague.
I will have Ms. Makpah respond to that question.
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) There are two ways that we charge QEC for the fuel. In some communities, they have their own tank farms and in those cases, they are charged the landed cost, the actual product cost, the actual transportation cost, but in a lot of communities, they don’t have enough tankage in their communities, so we keep their fuel in our tank farms and they are charged the retail price.
The landed costs that are applied to the QEC, it doesn’t apply to the other consumers at the pumps, (interpretation ends) only QEC?
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): Yes, Mr. Chairman, we don’t apply that cost (interpretation ends) to the consumers of the territory because it’s charged only to QEC.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. (interpretation) Then which one is larger?
Are their tanks bigger or looking at the retail price, when you look at the quantity, which comprises the larger portion when QEC is purchasing the fuel?
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) The volume is greater where they buy the fuel on the retail price if it is greater than the landed cost itself.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. (interpretation) My next question is with regards to the landed costs of the purchased fuel. Do you have an estimate, (interpretation ends) in terms of dollars, (interpretation) of how much dollars used? If we look at the prices for last year or the year before, do you have a range of prices?
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) Unfortunately, I don’t have that information with me.
The volume that goes into their tank farm...
In addition, I would like to pass on this information; PPD buys approximately 18 million litres worth of bulk fuel for direct resale to QEC every sealift season.
This fuel is discharged directly into QEC storage tanks, QEC pays the full landed costs, supply and transportation that is, for the volume.
The other part, too, is, Mr. Chairman, PPD also purchases an additional 27 million litres of nominated fuel for QEC which is stored in PPD tanks and sells it to QEC as it is required over the course of a 12-month period.
QEC pays the regulated rate, the rate established annually by Cabinet for this nominated volume.
QEC does receive the benefit of a subsidy on this nominated diesel volume.
PPD forecasts that the volume of the subsidy for fiscal year 2008 will be approximately $1.7 million.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): Thank you for that information.
We would like to understand the figures and we would like to have them tabled so that we can review them later on.
At this point, I cannot ask some of the questions since they can only be asked directly to QEC.
What I’m trying to understand is which one is benefiting Nunavummiut: when they pay at the pump or when QEC buys the product. As an example, if I buy heating fuel, is this reflected in the nominated price or is part of the volume QEC purchases under the nominated price? I’m referring to consumer home fuel prices. (interpretation ends) Thank you.
Thank you, my colleague.
I didn’t quite understand (interpretation ends) his question (interpretation) whether they get subsidy for the consumers through the QEC price. I don’t think I understand the question, so I can’t answer properly, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Curley, please rephrase your question.
I will probably have a more precise written question so that we understand all of that.
What I’m trying to get at is I just want to be sure that whatever price is applied to the consumer, I think we need to have a clear understanding of whether or not all or some part of it, as far as the price is concerned, is as a direct result of the QEC’s supply. For instance, the consumers, we know pretty well how much they require.
The reason it is complicated in trying to explain it is we also pay some part of the fuel through these lights up there, so that’s what I’m getting at.
I will clarify that not now but later probably through a letter.
(interpretation) I would like to thank you all. (interpretation ends) I know it is complex but I would like to continue to insist that there be a study of whether or not the long-term impact of prices, or whatnot, or the pricing system that we have is the best model or not. I think that there should be some consideration, at least by the minister, that we try and recover, and get Nunavummiut a break by maybe allowing sometimes two years to recover parts of the costs incurred during one year. (interpretation) I just wanted to have that considered.
I didn’t hear a question but if you want to respond, Minister Brown.
We will definitely try to review this since it impacts all of us, especially with the rising costs of fuel. Earlier today, I was informed that the price per barrel is still rising. I was told that the cost of purchasing one barrel now stands at $110, which is extremely expensive.
Just two days ago, it was at $107 per barrel and three days ago, it was at $105 per barrel. It’s distressing to see the costs just escalate skyward.
Yes, I will commit to getting the factors reviewed due to the rising costs and we will try to consider other options when looking at the factors that affect our territory. We will work with both PPD and especially the Department of Finance since all budgets go through this department.
I have no more names on my list for general comments. We will go back to J-3. (interpretation ends) Department Summary.
Community and Government Services. Detail of Expenditure.
Total Operations and Maintenance, to be Voted. $155,288,000.
Chairman: Are you agreed that the Department of Community and Government Services is concluded?