EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Mr. Arvaluk: I don’t want to hear that the gasoline is fine.
The gasoline may be fine, my face is fine too but everybody notices something different.
I’m not hurt.
It’s a scar from a temperature that was not supposed to be around when I was going home.
But at least tell the public that what was suspicion, even if it’s fine, but tell us about it.
Next question, Mr. Chairman, is can the minister assure Nunavummiut that you will be ordering, this summer from Petro Canada, winter gas, Canadian made fuel to ensure the quality will be good for Nunavut in the winter time.
Yes, we have been hearing the complaints about the quality about the gasoline for quite some time.
NTCL purchases the fuel in bulk to distribute to the communities and the government pays for the fuel that was purchased and distributed to the communities.
We’ll keep that in mind so that we can purchase fuel that can be used in Nunavut.
I’ll ask the company that purchases the fuel to look into this issue.
Mr. Chairman, several weeks ago I had wrote the Minister responsible for POL on the constituent concerns with gas, and I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and his staff for meeting with me and explaining some of the situation around the gas at that time.
That’s before a lot of the public exposure to the issue around the gas occurred.
Mr. Chairman, yesterday I had a call from the President of the Amarok Hunters’ and Trappers’ Association here in Iqaluit.
He had a specific request that I would ask the minister today and I would like to ask the minister if it’s possible for the minister and his good office to make available the specifications of the gas for arctic conditions that we purchased and if it’s possible to make that information available to the Amarok Hunters’ and Trappers’ Association.
The quality of gas that we are debating lately will probably be known in the near future after we hear from the overseas testers.
I will keep the member’s request in mind.
Do you have a question Mr. Iqaqrialu?
The people of Nunavut already know that the quality of gas is not right.
There must be something, is there any way of ensuring that we have a good quality gas.
We’re trying to correct a problem.
Hon. Peter Kattuk (interpretation): I will get my Deputy Minister to respond to the question.
I would like to ask if the member can repeat the question.
I heard about half of it but I’d like to be clear.
Chairperson (interpretation): Okay, can Mr. Iqaqrialu repeat your question.
The question that he asked was if there is any way that you can get a better quality of gasoline for the people of Nunavut especially for the Baffin Region.
Mr. Mrazek: We are presently working with a contractor which is NTCL making sure that the specifications and the quality of the gasoline will be set and will be known before anything takes the delivery.
We can only specify at this point of time the specification, which is listed in the current contract.
But with our discussion with NTCL, they are very aware and fully aware of the problems we are experiencing.
Yes, we are clear on that now.
NTCL should do their testing before they deliver fuel into Nunavut because everybody wants good quality whatever they buy.
Mr. Chairman, the other day when the witness was here from the Alberta Research Council, he had indicated when I asked if there was anything different this year over last year in the fuel that was analyzed, he indicated I believe it was the colour and the smell of it.
I’d like to ask the minister or his officials if there is a possibility that something that whatever causes the colour to be the way that it is, it’s obviously darker than it usually is.
You know if it’s something that makes it that colour that could be, you know, some sort of additive or whatever, that makes it darker could be causing the problem.
Are they looking at specifically doing some tests on that to determine if there is something there whether it be, because those are the only two things that are different from before, as the witness had indicated in those two areas that could be causing the problem.
I’m sorry Mr. Wispinski could not be here today but whatever answers he made couple of days ago, I can get my Deputy to respond to that question.
In response to Mr. Tootoo, with our discussions with the contractor, with the Alberta Research Council, the colour and the smell it’s really subjective.
It doesn't go to any tests, any standards and every refinery is basically free to choose or not to choose any colour or smell.
So it is not regulated by any norms or specifications.
I know that is what the witness had indicated the other day but what I am saying is that is something that we don't look at when we are doing the studies and the testing of it.
If that is the only thing that is different in the test from the fuel that we had last year and this fuel, you know, maybe there is something there.
What makes it that colour?
What is causing that smell?
Could it be whatever is causing that different colour or the smell?
Maybe something’s there.
Maybe that is causing the problem with the fuel, which is adversely affecting the engines here.
It is coating inside of the engine that is plugging of the jets and fuel pumps of snowmobiles and automobiles.
Something in there is doing that.
And if that is something that we never looked at before and that is the only thing that is different, maybe that is where the problem is.
I guess I am looking for, will the department specifically look at those two areas to determine that there isn't anything there that could be causing this problem.
In our dealings with the contractor we are requesting confirmation from the refinery in order to give us some potential answers for the colour or smell.
Our first reply from the contractor was that they are unable to do it from the refinery.
So we went back to the contractor, which is NTCL and requesting these things again.
We are also besides this stuff, we are also taking samples from the snow machines across Nunavut, directly from the gas tanks of the snow machines.
The Alberta Research Council will be providing additional testing to find what is the cause of the problem.
What people are mixing with the gas and find out additional details.
We will be able to report back when the samples when they are done.
Will the department ask the Research Council if they could study the gas and see if there is anything in it that cause the change colour or the smell that could be causing the problem.
If we can't get it from the refinery certainly today's technology they should be able to analyse the fuel to that extent. It’s pretty narrow.
What is causing the problem to cause this colour?
Will the department direct the Research Council in it's testing to look at those two specific areas?
Mr. Mrazek: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In our dealing with the Alberta Research Council we are having discussions and we don't have confirmation from them yet if they are able to determine the colour or the smell. We are having serious discussions with them to try and find the problem.
Mr. Chairman, if the Alberta Research Council, I don’t know if it’s a matter of determining what the colour or the smell is but what’s caused the difference in what we usually see in fuel which is a lot lighter and doesn’t have the odour that the fuel seems to have this year and it’s a lot darker and it stinks.
Whatever is causing that, can they look at what that is and they can’t do it, will the department go somewhere else so we can find out.
Mr. Mrazek: Thank you, right now we are dealing with the Alberta Research Council and we’ll see what the result will be at that point in time.
I appreciate the fact that they are currently working with the Research Council.
If they are unable to look specifically at those two issues to determine what’s in there that’s causing that, will the department look somewhere else to find the answer so that we can determine if there’s a problem or if it’s not the problem.
If we don’t find out we won’t know.
So, if the Alberta Research Council can’t do those tests, will they go somewhere else to get those tests done to find out if that’s a problem or not?
We’re expecting samples from England.
We have requested samples from New Jersey.
Now we will have the samples and we have some samples from the Alberta Research Council.
The problem here is that the colour and smell has nothing to do with the specifications.
We are obviously trying to work with Alberta Research Council to see if they are able to analyse chemically the colour or smell from that point.
We have no proof yet and we don’t have anything positive yet.
We are just dealing with ARC at this point in time.
I’d still like to know if we can’t get concrete results from the Alberta Research Council and the analysis and the colour of the fuel and what’s causing the colouration and what’s causing the smell.
I’m fully aware that that’s something that’s not in the specs, but you know if they can’t do it, will they go somewhere else and find somewhere else that can do it so we will be able to draw some closure to it and find out if that’s the problem or not.
Either we can say that’s it or cross if off the list and look for something else.
We need to know. If they can’t do it, will they commit to going somewhere that can?
Firstly, I’d like to make a comment.
The quality of gasoline, when I first started concerns about this issue, Mr. Tootoo and other members assisted me in getting information.
The Deputy Minister is the same person that is dealing with this from the beginning and we did research or sampling.
We were told that there was some sampling being done and we were told that once we received the results, that we would be able to find out what the cause is but I am certain we will get to the bottom of it.
I’ll get Mr. Kattuk to respond.
The sampling is being done, we’ve sent samples to England and New Jersey.
We won’t know the results until we’ve received them.
That is why samples were sent out, but we don’t know when we’ll receive the results.
Once this has been cleared, we’ll be able to know what the cause was but to date we don’t have the results and samples were sent out.
So, once we’ve gotten the information and the results, the members will be informed.
I still haven’t got an answer to my question and maybe you’d like to ask why the minister and his officials won’t say we are going to find out if something has caused the colour and smell to be different than the previous years is the problem.
If they can’t do it through the tests that are out there, that they won’t pursue it to find out what the problem is until they find someone who can do it.
That’s all I’m looking for.
If they can’t do it, will they go somewhere else or find somewhere else that can do it just to make sure that it gets done.
I don’t know why they’re not answering me.
They just say that they’re waiting for tests.
But if these tests come in and they’re not conclusive in those areas, will they pursue those specific areas of testing until they find someone that can give conclusive results in those areas.
Chairperson (interpretation): Response please, Mr. Minister.
I stated that samples were sent out and it’s being looked into.
Once we’ve received the results, we can’t say whether it will get tested because we don’t know what the results will be.
Chairperson (interpretation): There are no answers right now?
We can raise a lot of questions and go on and on and raise the question over and over again but without the results, there are no responses.
Mr. McLean: I’ve missed most of it but I heard that the gasoline comes out of New York.
Does the gasoline come out of New York for all of Nunavut?
The gasoline that is purchased in New York goes to the Kivalliq and the Baffin region.
Now I seem to detecting that there seems to be a problem with gasoline between November and March.
Does that seem to be the problem with gasoline with those?
This time of year from November to March during the very cold winter months.
Hon. Peter Kattuk (interpretation): I will get Susan to respond.
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): Yes.
Does the minister know what the octane level is for the gasoline that is purchased in New York?
Hon. Peter Kattuk: The level is 90.
That is not a high test. That is not a low test.
It is sort of a middle grade gasoline.
I am not sure what do the new snowmobiles need for an octane level to burn properly in their snow machines today.
Is it 92.
Does the minister know if that gasoline that was purchased was at the 90 level octane?
Is that suitable to the machines that we are driving today?
The new Polaris, Yamahas or the high performance snow machines.
I've been talking to some of my constituents.
The larger engines the 700, 800 need a higher level of octane and if you burn that lower level than you get engine failures.
Like I have a 440 machine a Polaris and I am not really having any problems with the gasoline and I use mine everyday.
So is there a tendency that this gasoline affects certain types.
I am not a mechanic so I don't know.
I'll have my Deputy to answer your question.
Looks to me like different manufacturing of the snow machines, some of the listing gas requirements and some of them don't.
But the jury is trying to look for an answer to that.
I think they are basically talking somewhere anywhere between 92-95 octane number.
Which is not basically available because we getting the supply of the gas once a year.
Our octane level is 89-90 and in that category.
It a mixed grade gas for all year use.
So it could be problem there but I can not make any other positive comments from that point.
Mr. McLean: I was waiting for the light bulb to go off in front of me and in my head.
Thank you for that answer.
On that issue, we know we are dealing with a severe climate here and at 40 below, I know we have problems with home heating fuel long time ago when we were buying heating fuel.
P-30 and it was clogging up and freezing and furnaces weren’t operating because it sticking like molasses and so I think the government now has a standardized fuel called P50 and I don’t think that ever gels too much and it operates and people can use it at home heating and people can use it as automotive and people can use it with whatever.
Now, I’m not an expert in gasoline by any measure and I don’t know about stinky gasoline and stuff like, I’ve, if it runs and it burns but to me, I don’t know if that’s the issue.
A gasoline that smells bad doesn’t really burn right.
But I know the south they have advertisements where there is a winter grade gasoline for Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and gasoline stations advertise a winter grade gasoline.
I don’t know what they’re talking about there but it seems like a good idea because when years ago there used to be a lot of freeze up in the old engines down south in automobiles because there was a bit of vapour gasoline or water vapour and things and vehicles froze up.
And, I know you're buying the gasoline out of New York, and probably because there is a very good reason, probably because price dictates what we do in this government and in every government.
Have we looked at buying, purchasing gasoline from one of our refineries like in Alberta or Saskatchewan and may be specifying like a winter type gasoline and do you think that would alleviate the situation where were having problems.
Ms. Makpah: We are looking into that.
Mr. McLean: Well that’s nice to know because I think, like I say I’m not an expert in gasoline.
But there seems to be more problems in the winter time with snow machines and a couple of people I’ve talked to about.
It's not a really big issue in my community, like I say I have a snow machine, I have a Honda, I have a couple of trucks, I have a couple of diesel trucks and I don’t seem to be having a problem and up here they’re having problems in places like Repulse Bay and Iqaluit.
Do you think, now I’m just, a philosophical question here, and I don’t want to put the minister down, that when they’re shipping fuel, when they’re shipping gasoline into Nunavut, and we’re a small consumer, somebody told me years ago that we’re equivalent to one, you know, all of Nunavut’s gasoline sales are equivalent to one gasoline station in Toronto.
So we’re not a very big player in the market.
You know what I mean, like we’re insignificant.
So, I know when the government goes out to buy gasoline they get the best deal possible.
Like you have these easy gasoline companies in the south that sell gasoline for 6 or 7 cents a litre but you don’t know the quality of gasoline you’re getting.
So, are you going to look at that in regards to what we’re purchasing in New York now, and compare it to what we can purchase in Alberta or Saskatchewan, with their consumers in the winter time and would you consider that.
Chairperson (interpretation): You want to continue.
I know the days getting long but just another question.
I don’t know too much about it.
That when we’re shipping petroleum products into the Arctic and things like that, you have carriers and I think that NTCL has a large ship that they anchor out in offshore and then they pump NTCL pumps out of that and fills their tanks and delivers it to the sites, specific sites and that’s the story I have and that’s the story I heard that they do.
Now, when you're buying offshore petroleum products from like New York or something like that we’re going for the best price what’s to say that ship wasn’t carrying something before they were carrying gasoline.
They could have been carrying a liquid fertilizer.
They could have been carrying a low grade heating fuel, they could have been carrying whatever tankers carry out on the high seas.
And you know how the flush those tankers out and clean them they just dump everything and then you know flush some seawater through it and stuff like that.
Would that be a possible cause for some of the problems that the tankers that are carrying it are not really cleaning up?
This is a very interesting question. We were talking with the contractor which is NTCL.
We raised that question for possible contamination.
Mixing the different products in the tank.
But apparently there is a procedure in place, when the empty tanker, before the loading happens from the shoreline, that the tanks are inspected and has to be completely emptied and dry.
There is also, some of the specific fire regulations in place, to make sure the mixing of the fuel cannot happen.
So, we have been assured that the process is going through the verification of the different and on board of the ship and also from the refinery.
And it’s recorded into some kind of report.
Thank you, Ross, you’ve done your homework there.
So you’ve been checking. I can’t doubt you there.
You brought up about snowmobiles, the octane levels that you suggest, you’ve obviously checked into it, the 92 to 95 percent octane levels, that snow machines operate under today, and we’re around 89-90 percent in our octane levels that we’re selling to the consumers.
It’s not secret that sometimes gasoline in some communities sits for a couple of years and I don’t know, when you store a vehicle for a year or something like that, you have to put a fuel stabilizer or an octane booster after.
I know you’re not a mechanic, you’re an engineer of some kind and a Public Works boy, but , say the octane level is lower, and I don’t say that derogatory, Ross, don’t look at me like that.
I say that as a good thing.
If the octane level is starting to go down 88 or 89, long term, would that contribute to engine failure in snow machines?
That’s my last question for sure.
I’m a chemist and my chemistry wasn’t really a great subject, but I believe considering the capacity in the different communities where we work almost a 100 percent turn-over every year, that the gasoline can be old for one year.
It may lose some octane number.
But I believe, and don’t quote me on this, that maybe with reducing the octane number, the engine may possibly run a little bit slower or rougher or anything like that but I don’t think that will contribute to the overheating and damage which is being experienced with snow machines these days.
I would like to ask a question, and if I make a mistake, let me know.
I hear that the tankers that go to the Keewatin, well my question is, is the same tanker going to the Keewatin and the Baffin.
Chairperson (interpretation): Susan.
Ms. Makpah (interpretation): There are four tankers in the Baffin Region, that do the re-supply for those communities.
Mr. Alakannuark (interpretation): I would like to say is that in Repulse Bay, they started having problems with the gasoline, I think in October.
They have been waiting ever since.
I have to say this, we are working very hard on behalf of our constituents to get this problem resolved.
There was no question there.
We can't get responses to our questions.
It has been very hard to get the responses.
I am sure after the results come in we will be getting the responses that we need.
It is something that cannot be done overnight because of course we have to rely on results coming in from out of our jurisdiction.
I don't have any other names.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was waiving my hand there.
If you use two different of sodas for example, one 7-UP and one Coke.
There would be a difference in the taste in the odour and the colour.
With this gasoline this year's colour is a little darker than last year's.
In the communities they use 45 gallon drums to store the gasoline.
And if there was left over gasoline in the barrel and you put a new stock into the 45 gallon drum and if you mix those two.
Would there be a difference in the quality of the gasoline.
Using your community as an example.
This summer we built new tanks in Pond Inlet to store gasoline.
The colour of the gasoline is exactly the same say for example Iqaluit and Sanikiluaq.
Even when you totally empty out the tank in there.
We put in new gasoline and still it is exactly the same as the one here in Iqaluit or in Sanikiluaq.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): The communities should be all the same.
Just for clarification there are some communities that are having more problems than other communities.
Just listening to the discussions that are being held around the table, we hear that we get the same product in the Baffin region where this gasoline was bought from New York and the Western portion of Nunavut they are bought from Edmonton.
There are communities that are having more problems and some less.
This is what we heard on the radio.
So I was starting to wonder if the tank still had some left over from last year and you put in a new stock in the same tank.
Would that change the quality of the gasoline?
And for those communities that are having less problems.
Is it because of the temperature, is it dependent on the climate, whether it’s warmer or colder?
Those are my questions.
Some tanks have some fuel in the tank from re-supply.
Some tanks are empty.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): My question, are you doing studies on whether there is a difference between filling in a tank with last year’s fuel in there and new fuel mixed together and the climate of each community.
I would want to know the results of those.
When the barge or the ship gets into the community, we take out a sample from the tank itself and we pull out a sample from the barge or the ship itself prior to discharging it into the tank.
The sample that we take out from the tank itself prior to discharging.
We hold that until we find that there aren’t any problems with the fuel.
The fuel, prior to discharge is tested.
Then again, we take out another fuel sample with the fresh batch in the tank farm.
Chairperson (interpretation): Other questions?
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): I think it was on Monday that we asked those same questions when we started dealing with gasoline and there was a person from Alberta.
If something has been sitting there for a long time, the heavier element tends to settle down to the bottom of the barrel and when there’s fresh gasoline put in, we were told that samples are taken within a certain number of hours but there’s usually a difference when a product has been sitting there for a long time and the heavier products tend to settle down to the bottom of the barrel.