EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Mr. Chairman, what I’m getting at is there must be a pact somewhere. If that obligation or at least a requirement in terms of the DIOs is, in fact, real and if there is any confusion about it, isn’t there a way to try and resolve whether or not some of the provisions are binding to get that blockage out of the way?
Is there such a system that it can be applied through?
I think if there are differences of opinion, like in anything, there is a body that looks at all the opinions and may come up with a course of action or a decision.
I would think that in this case, it would either be a court or a court’s opinion and that’s where it would happen.
That’s what I was getting at. It’s not about conflict or taking a DIO or anything to court, but it’s just to get an interpretation. If there are ongoing disagreements, politicians will never agree to that.
I have tended to believe that any of the provisions, for instance, with Article 24 requirements for contracts, in my view, are binding on local governments or hamlets.
That’s my view because of this Article 2.12.2. I’m going to read the whole thing.
Mr. Tarnow is a lawyer. He can interpret why I think it’s binding on local governments or municipalities.
“Where there is any inconsistency or conflict between any federal, territorial and local government laws, and the Agreement, the Agreement shall prevail to the extent of the inconsistency or conflict.” It says all laws.
It probably includes municipality law, yet the legal advice understood by the department has always been that municipalities are not bound by Article 24.
If that is the view, should that be cleared up by the court?
Rather than going through confrontations just for the interpretation of it, like asking the constitutional court or something whether it’s binding or not, I think that is the way to do it, unless there is another tribunal established somewhere.
So I need advice as well.
I understand somewhat what Mr. Curley is saying too, but I think where there are any disagreements or conflict of opinion, I think there needs to be a system for voices to be heard.
I know, as he says, it’s his own personal opinion. There may be others out there that interpret the same thing that Mr. Curley is interpreting the same way.
However, for a decision to be made, I think it needs to go to a body.
In this case, it may be a court to decide what is right, what is legal, and what is binding under the land claims agreement.
Mr. Chairman, the only other point I want to raise is that for issues of this kind where the government department is in charge, assumingly responsible for complying with the particular provisions of the agreement, I believe there needs to be a bit more training with all aspects of that particular article, whether it would be 24 or Inuit employment provisions or whatnot.
Would you agree that is the kind of thing that our public service should be at least encouraged to do so annually? You indicated already that there is a high turnover, for instance, of lawyers.
Would you support such an opportunity if that were to happen?
I would support any educational avenues that we have to help our lawyers understand the land claims agreement.
I wholeheartedly concur with my colleague, Mr. Tagak Curley, on these issues.
As regular members, we discuss many issues, particularly my colleague, Mr. Tapardjuk.
Here in Nunavut, Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit and Inuit societal values should be visible in legislation and regulations and during the legislative process.
Page E-6 speaks to the legislative process.
If we start bringing these matters up as we draft legislation and Acts, we read the drafts and debate the issues.
Can the minister speak to whether he supports this idea since he is also representing his constituents in Nunavut? We have to incorporate certain concepts of Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit and societal values that are positive and do no harm within Nunavut. These can be of benefit.
Does the minister recognize that fact? I believe Inuit customs and values have to be incorporated into all of our legislation.
Inuit societal values are incorporated into legislation.
We do have a couple of examples where they have been incorporated to some degree and, that is, in the new Education Act. It’s also in the new Wildlife Act.
I would like to explain the process to the members.
From draft legislation through the review stages and for legislation coming back to us to take forward to the House, there are a couple of processes that take place that heavily involve Inuit values and Inuit societal values.
The first step is through the Tuttarviit Committee. It’s a GN committee that provides input on Inuit societal and cultural values. It then goes through another committee when it gets to EIA, and forgive me if I pronounce this wrong, Maligaksanik Qimirrujiit Committee.
So there are avenues that input can be provided.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Shewchuk. (interpretation ends) Because you asked, I forgive you.
Yes, we understand what the minister is saying.
In regard to social issues in Nunavut, we believe that the Government of Nunavut is not being sensitive to Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit. I have no doubt whatsoever that my colleagues in this House can contribute more comments to this.
Those ideas are recognized and some are incorporated, but I will want more clarification on that. We are glad about it. I’m saying that what is being incorporated is still not enough.
This is just a comment on legislation in Nunavut.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Ningark. (interpretation ends) Minister Shewchuk, did you want to comment on that?
Hon. Daniel Shewchuk: Not at this time.
I have a question on this page of the business plan.
I hope I’m on the correct page, page 66.
I don’t have the Inuktitut version. In the business plan, it says, “Lawyer Support Services.”
Am I on the correct page, Mr. Chairman? I need your direction before I ask my question.
Secondly, I have a question under Lawyer Support Services and the main estimates.
Are these items together, Mr. Chairman?
Chairman (interpretation): We are talking about the same issue.
In the priorities for 2011-12 under the French and Inuktitut language, that priority will be made for an Inuktitut translator. In 2011, they had hired an Inuktitut translator and that this will carry over in 2012-13. For 2013-14, on page 67, it states that more work will be done on the Inuktitut language.
I would like to get an update on where exactly that is at, Mr. Chairman, if I can ask the minister.
At present, we have two beneficiary translator positions working in the justice system.
We have no French translator right now; however, we’re working towards getting that.
I think it is quite a challenge we’ve had at Justice that after training translators and getting them involved, they’re scooped up by other agencies.
Mr. Tapardjuk (interpretation): Let me get further clarification, Mr. Chairman.
Do you already have an interpreter/translator or was that person you trained taken over by another entity or organization?
Perhaps the minister can clarify what this is trying to say, Mr. Chairman.
For clarification, these are legal translators, legal interpretation translators, so that’s their job and their position at the Department of Justice.
As I said, it’s very specialized training to do that type of work.
You’re quite a commodity when you do get that type of training and we have lost people to Ottawa.
It’s better when you can speak fluently in the language of the people. It makes them feel comfortable and at ease.
The minister was right when he said that interpreter/translators should be fully trained and fluent.
My last question in regard to this is: have you spoken to the Department of Education or Nunavut Arctic College about the need for specialized training for legal interpreter/translators? Has the minister approached the Minister of Education on that?
No, I haven’t spoken to the education minister, but I can and I will commit to do that.
These are very specific translator positions, as I say, that need to be trained.
Speaking to the minister at Arctic College, he agrees that we need to do more training in translation, period, in our Arctic College programs.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Shewchuk. (interpretation ends) I am very glad you have a good working relationship with the Minister responsible for Arctic College.
Yes, it’s evident that it would require funding.
I haven’t seen any line items for funding this program.
Perhaps when the Minister responsible for Nunavut Arctic College appears before the committee, I’ll be asking that question.
I don’t think there was a question there.
Mr. Tapardjuk (interpretation): When the Minister responsible for Nunavut Arctic College appears before the committee, I’ll be asking that question.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Tapardjuk. (interpretation ends) We will wait for the Minister responsible for Arctic College and you can ask your questions then. (interpretation) Thank you.
We’re on page E-6.
Branch Summary. Lawyer Support Services. Total Operations and Maintenance. $3,180,000.
Turn to page E-7.
It also mentions justices of the peace. Do all the communities have justices of the peace or are we short on justices of the peace?
I need that clarification. Are there enough justices of the peace?
I have been asking in regard to justice of the peace training and their roles and responsibilities. I do wish to find out where the Justice of the Peace program is.
I would like to advise Mr. Tapardjuk that all communities do have justice of the peace. Some have more than one and we do have and are intensifying training for justice of the peace.
I believe there are four levels of training that they can receive and progress on their responsibilities as they work up.
I’ll ask this question in English. (interpretation ends) The 2007-08 Annual Report of the Nunavut Liquor Licensing Board was not tabled in the Legislative Assembly until June 9, 2010.
Its 2008-09 and 2009-2010 annual reports have not yet been tabled.
Why are the board’s annual reports consistently late, and will you be tabling its 2008-09, 2009-2010, and 2010-11 annual reports in the Legislative Assembly?
I’ll have Deputy Minister Tarnow answer that question.
Chairman: Mr. Tarnow.
We have been experiencing some delays in tabling reports due to auditing and translation issues.
The Internal Audit Division of the Department of Finance had been indicated as the auditor for the liquor licensing board and some of our public agencies.
As it turned out, they declined to do the audit after we had thought that they were going to do it.
They actually were appointed auditors, but they discovered that they couldn’t do it, much to our dismay, actually.
So what we have had to do is retain chartered accountants outside of the government to audit the liquor licensing board’s books.
They really don’t have any books as it turns out, Mr. Chairman. They have very few financial transactions. There isn’t any income.
They just have per diems for the members, but by law, we have to have an audit of their financial statements.
All of their finances go through the government books and are audited by the Auditor General of Canada, but we have to do this extra step, unfortunately. We will be doing that and those reports will be tabled hopefully before the end of this calendar year.
This is three years of annual reports. Why has it taken that long for your department to resolve the issue?
As Mr. Tarnow just explained, I think there were some capacity problems for this happening. However, we have clarified that and we know what we have to do to get these reports done. As Mr. Tarnow also stated, we know we have legislative responsibilities and the real information that is going to be in these reports is rather minimal also.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Shewchuk. We are on page E-7. (interpretation ends) Branch Summary.
Justice. Registries and Court Services. Total Operations and Maintenance. $10,172,000. (interpretation) Do you agree?
Turn to page. E-8.
Could the minister elaborate on the state of the Iqaluit correctional centres and give us full details on the status and other matters? He keeps saying that they’re overcrowded and the infrastructure is aging, and so on.
So I would like an update on that for the record, Mr. Chairman.
I would be pleased, for the record, to talk about our Baffin correctional facility.
BCC, our men’s facility, is an old facility. I believe it was constructed in 1984. Is that right?
It was never meant to be the facility that it is today. It is built for 46 to 48 inmates. At times, we have over 100 inmates in there.
It has outlived its lifecycle and its use. It’s overcrowded. I invited members, as Mr. Curley knows, to take a tour of the facility just to see what it’s about and to see what the conditions are and how inmates have to handle those conditions over there.
So in my personal opinion, it’s in a dire strait. We need to do something for the safety of the inmates and the safety of the people who work there.
I really would like to commend the Corrections Division here for handling the situations they deal with over there. A lot of our correctional officers are very dedicated and do a lot of volunteering and do some counselling work on their own and a lot of good things over there.
I say that it’s a deteriorating place.
It’s what we have. We’re doing the best that we can.
Of course, the pressures will be alleviated somewhat once Rankin Inlet opens. However, we still will be over capacity at BCC. With Bill C-10 coming in, we are expecting, with our forecasts, in the next couple of years, we’re going to probably increase our inmate count by 30 people.
We have, at present, as men inmates across the territory approximately 190. We have the ones that we have at BCC. We have our Kugluktuk facility.
We have inmates in facilities in Ontario. We have inmates in facilities in the Northwest Territories. We have some on-the-land camp programs going.
So we’re over capacity on how we’re going to deal with future numbers of inmates that we get.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister, for that update and that information.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. (interpretation) It seems to be clear that something has to be done.
If the minister has an action plan, when are solutions to that issue going to be tabled?
Hon. Daniel Shewchuk: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I thank the member for that question.
We do have some plans on the go.
We have immediate plans in place that this House and Committee of the Whole is going to see in the very near future of a supplemental bill to move forward on a temporary structure that we’re looking at alleviating our immediate problems here for the short term in Iqaluit with BCC.
We also are also putting together a long-term plan that’s going to alleviate the problem for years to come in Nunavut. I think it takes some proper planning to have that facility, what we really needed done in Nunavut.
I think that when we became Nunavut, we inherited the facility that we have with some planning that was not done to continue to the year 2012, where we’re at.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. (interpretation) In regard to the action plan, some of the regulations that would be amended, as the minister just mentioned, would it be possible to table those in the spring or fall session?
I’m sure it has to be included in the capital plans. Do you have an estimate of how much it will cost to build a facility and when the tendering would go out, if we can put it in the capital estimates?
I’ll be very candid with Mr. Curley here. We do have an action plan coming forward and his suggestion is very good.
As I said, you are going to see a supplemental bill coming to this House during this sitting to move forward with a plan for a planning and design phase of a temporary facility.
We want to initiate, with the support of all members, to try and get this done as soon as possible.
We are still on page E-8.
I have a question under this particular Branch Summary, E-8, Corrections.
My question is pertaining to community corrections.
My question is: how many probation officers do we have in our communities in Nunavut?
I think we have 25 communities. Does every community have a probation officer? I think it’s very important to ensure that we have these positions filled in every community across Nunavut.
My correction staff advises me that we have 18 correctional officers across the territory in various communities, not in all communities, though.
Mr. Ningark: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the hon. minister.
You have 18 probation officers across Nunavut. If that is correct, what about other communities that don’t have the positions filled in their community?
What happens to people who are under probation?
Do you have travelling probation officers who deal with the other communities that don’t have a position?
So that we can provide the proper answers and very good answers with our expert here, I would ask at this time if I could bring another witness to this table.
Does the committee agree to bring in another witness?
While we await the witness, I would like to remind everyone that when you enter the Chambers, please put your cellphones on silent so that people who are speaking can be heard and understood.
(interpretation ends) Mr. Minister, will you introduce your witness for the record?
We have the right person at the table now. His name is J.P. Deroy. He is the director of corrections for Nunavut.
If possible, Mr. Ningark, please ask your question again for the benefit of the witness. Mr. Ningark.
Perhaps I can also rephrase my question.
In response to my first question to the minister of the judicial branch of the Nunavut government, he indicated that there are 18 probation officers across Nunavut.
I wanted to know what is happening in the other communities in Nunavut that don’t have the luxury, if you will, of having a probation officer. Who deals with offenders who are under the probation of the government?
Does the social worker become the probation officer or a mental health worker, or do you have a travelling probation officer dealing with these communities?
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Ningark. (interpretation ends) Mr. Deroy, if I may.
I’m just going to read off a statement I prepared earlier.
As of April 1, 2011, eight new positions have been approved for implementation over the next three years.
That’s probation officers.
This is because Health and Social Services put us on notice that they wanted to be out of the probation services because of conflicts, of course. It’s been a conflict for a long time.
The first four communities were selected based on the number of clients in each community as follows:
One CCO for Iqaluit, bringing the CCO count up to three. Iqaluit has the highest caseload, up to 300 at some points.
The Iqaluit office also provides clients from various other communities as they meet via telephone.
One CCO for Arctic Bay. It took time to negotiate office space in Arctic Bay, but the hamlet has agreed to supply GN with office.
This position is advertised and will be closing on March 30.
One CCO for Taloyoak. We are looking for office space currently.
The community is being supervised currently by Cambridge Bay.
We are still looking for office space in that community. We believe that once the hamlet moves into their new hamlet building, one office in the old hamlet will be reserved for our CCO.
From what I have been informed, this will be in there probably five to six months.
One CCO for Sanikiluaq. We’re also waiting for office space. The community is being supervised currently by Rankin Inlet while we look for an office.
CGS is actively looking to find office spaces in this community. Nothing is currently available, but we are still looking and working with CGS for this.
The next communities, based on the number of clients, will be Qikiqtarjuaq, Kimmirut, Clyde River, Coral Harbour, and possibly Hall Beach, if we can get the supplemental funding for this.
Our biggest issue for placing probation officers in communities is not so much the staffing; it’s to find office space.
I’m sure the member from Arctic Bay can testify to how difficult it is. We have been trying to work very actively with CGS to be able to find some office space.
So any assistance we can get from the members on this would be appreciated.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Deroy.
I wanted to know what is happening. As we were told by the Minister of Justice, there are 18 probation officers across Nunavut.
That leaves seven more hamlets or communities that don’t have their probation officer.
Now, in the absence of the probation officer, what happens to the offender that is on probation?
Under the law of the judicial system or branch of the government, where does he or she go to talk to someone when there is no probation officer?
Does the social worker or mental health worker become the probation officer where there is an offender who is under the program of probation?
I’ll have Mr. Deroy answer that question.
Chairman: Mr. Deroy, proceed.
Mr. Deroy: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Depending on the community, yes, social workers will supervise clients.
We’re trying to change that. We do agree that it’s a conflict.
It has always been a conflict. A social worker cannot counsel the victim and the accused in a sense. So yes, in some instances, it is.
In some other instances where social services are opting out, we do supervise by phone.
One of the reasons we added a position in Iqaluit is because they do supervision of Kimmirut.
They sometimes do supervision of Pangnirtung when people are not there. We will supervise Pond Inlet and Qikiqtarjuaq. Cambridge Bay is supervising by phone.
We had the Kugluktuk probation officer recently travel to Taloyoak to supervise people directly over there and to meet the clients.
So we do have some of our probation officers travelling as much as they can to supervise clients in other communities, yes.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Deroy.
I thank the office of the Minister of Justice, understanding and recognizing that there is an effort to fill these positions in seven communities.
I don’t have any further questions.
We are on page E-8. (interpretation ends) Justice.
Total Operations and Maintenance. $31,157,000. (interpretation) Do you agree?
Moving on to page E-9. (interpretation ends) Branch Summary.
Total Operations and Maintenance. $4,624,000. (interpretation) Do you agree?
We will go back to page E-3. (interpretation ends) Department Summary.
Total Operations and Maintenance. $92,085,000. (interpretation) Do you agree?
Are we in agreement that the Department of Justice is concluded?
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you. (interpretation ends) Mr. Shewchuk, do you have closing comments?
I do. I just want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, and all the members for the input that we have in the business plan for 2012-13 of the Department of Justice.
I think Justice, and I’m learning this department, is quite a complex department with a lot of issues and sometimes not very good issues, but I appreciate the committee and all the concerns.
What I really appreciate is the staff at Justice, all the staff of all the divisions, for their very hard work in providing people with the services they need in the justice system in Nunavut.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Shewchuk. I would also like to thank all your officials.
At this time, we will take a half-hour break.
>>Committee recessed at 17:59 and resumed at 18:31
Bill 24 – Appropriation (Operations & Maintenance) Act, 2012-2013 – Nunavut Arctic College – Consideration in Committee
Chairman (interpretation): We can now resume the meeting. We have quorum.
I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Nunavut Arctic College to make his opening comments.
I am pleased to be here today to present and discuss the 2012-13 main estimates and business plan for Nunavut Arctic College.
The Vote 1 Main Estimates account for the base contribution from the Government of Nunavut to Arctic College.
The increase from the 2011-12 estimates is $641,000.
This is primarily to deliver more foundational training for the Nursing Program students through a pre-nursing program.