EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
We have never received a tender offer; maybe we can suggest to the Minister to maybe drop off some advertisements because (interpretation) our students that are applying for funding through Financial Assistance for Nunavut Students, because of the Department of Education not being able to have enough funds with their over-expenditures, they have not been able to receive any funding.
The tenders that are translated into Inuktitut, when contracts are being written, not one Inuktitut-speaking applicant has ever applied.
Maybe if they omit some of those tenders, then the government would save some money.
I understand exactly what my colleague’s concern is, but we also have a policy on languages and that will be quite difficult.
Excuse me, the programs, the departments, as my deputy minister mentioned, there is ongoing training for contracts and we can keep emphasizing to them to do it in the least expensive way and I fully understand his concern.
Then, if you understand how much they spend on placing advertisements in the newspaper, I wonder if we can get that information once they find out.
Yes, we can compile these and we can provide that information to the Member.
Mr. Netser (interpretation): I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Questions to the Contracting Reports and the Annual Contracting Data Report, Mr. Peterson.
Welcome to the Minister and his officials again today. Mr. Rafter’s first day on the hot seat.
This is a very detailed and comprehensive report, Mr. Chairman, 40 pages of contracts.
I saw that there was one contract here I can’t remember what page it is, Customized Licenses for Gjoa Haven for $3.96.
I was wondering why you tossed it in there, maybe to distract us, or humour us, or amuse us.
And then you have contracts all the way up to a million dollars.
It is good to see those in there.
There might be a recommendation in the future with the concurrence of my colleagues that we establish a minimum threshold so we don’t have to look at every little contract.
I know that they are important but in the context of this report, anything under $1,000 or $5,000 might not be necessary, especially a $3.96 contract.
In February or March I was pursuing the KPMG Report and the Minister of Health finally tabled it.
In there it talks about ambulance contracts.
When I was reviewing the contract documents here, I couldn’t see evidence that all the contracts and leased contracts were being listed.
I am sure that they run into millions of dollars.
I am wondering of the Minister or his officials could comment on why the multi-year contracts were not listed in the Contracts Report?
That happens when the multi-year contracts will appear in the year the contracts are awarded.
Therefore the topic in question is not in this report.
I understand why the Minister is saying that multi-year contracts are not in here.
They are probably listed in the year it’s signed.
The Government of Nunavut had a Response to a Written Question 21-2(2), earlier this year for costs associated to medical travel.
It went out to $12 million, 711 thousand, 674 dollars for airline tickets for patients in 2003-2004.
We can extrapolate from those numbers and more than $18 million was expended on charters for the Department of Health and Social Services.
I am not clear what company, or companies benefited from those contracts.
I think when awarding contracts and proper context we are providing a report for a specific contracting year, that we should include multi-year contracts, broken down to the year that those costs apply.
I am wondering if the Minister or his officials could comment on that.
The information that I have on that request is, it's information not very easy to pull out to add on to the list.
However, having said that maybe I could ask Mr. Rich to elaborate a little more on this and see if there is some other way that we can possibly look at to providing more information.
I understand the concern and the desire for information.
I think there may, in fact, be a more simple way to do it, and that is if there are specific areas in which there is interest in having information on multi-year contracts.
Frankly, it is much easier and much less work to; in fact, get that information on those specific areas.
The problem is, the very problem that you mentioned the number of contracts, we have close to 11,000 contracts, we have a very large number of contracts that are multi year, because for instance construction contracts: which are almost always multi year contracts, and medical charters and other contracts, and it’s very hard, at least with our current tracking system, and our current computer software to have a way to pull those contracts up and make sure that were reliably reporting on multi year contracts.
On the other hand, if there are contracts in particular areas of interest, it is essentially easier to go into those areas and pull them up, and if there was an indication of particular areas that information is desired, then we could do selective reports on those areas to get the information that would provide the information the member’s desire.
Thank you to the Minister and Mr. Rich.
Perhaps a separate report could be provided in detail for all the multi year contracts.
They are a substantially large contracts would be an interest of the members of the house and others want to see what those contracts are.
If we are spending money every year on those contracts, we should know what our obligations are. I wonder if the Minister or Mr. Rich can comment.
Chairman: Thank you Mr. Peterson, Mr. Rich.
Frankly because we haven’t tried to do it with our computer software yet, I suspect that Mr. Rafter and I would have to have some discussions about how we do that, it is a challenge to do that because of the way some contracts run.
There’s also a definition challenge, I’ll use the construction projects as an example, we may have a construction project that’s done in one year and we anticipate the work will be completed that year because of issues that arise, late sealift delivery, problems that are encountered in construction, it runs into the second year, so by definition it becomes a multi year contract even though when it was issued we anticipated it would complete by March 30th of a given year.
So we would not have that information at the time of tendering captured in our database, it says it’s a multi year contract but that then becomes a multi year contract, and the other issues is the contracts may have a extension provisions, so extension provisions can be actioned by the client department, not necessarily by Department of Community and Government Services and at present there not formally required to report to us that they’ve extended the contract for certain period of time.
In many contracts it’s quite normal for a 10% extension to extend the contract, so I suspect we have to do two things, one is we have to see whether our current database is capable of giving that information and secondly we would probably have to change our reporting procedures with the department to report when they’ve extended the contract or entered into multi year contracts that we are not aware of.
It does sound complicated, I’m sure with capable staff and meetings with between yourself and Mr. Rafter you’ll figure it out.
I think it’s important that we do have that information, however you arrange for it to be provided to us will be greatly appreciated.
I wanted to ask on the page 16 of 21 on the procurement contract report, that they have a grand total of contracts of $116 million, 856 thousand for fiscal year 2003/04.
I imagine that’s after the application of the NNI policy Mr. Chair.
There is a probably a higher cost to the government then if you just selected all the low bids.
Could the Minister or Mr. Rich tell us if they’ve done any sort of analysis to show that spending the extra, I don’t know how many millions of dollars, it could be $10 million or $20 million or $30 million after the application in NNI policy, if they’ve done an analysis on the types of jobs that are created for Inuit in different communities and the types of businesses that have been created, and whether they are sustainable.
Are they still in existence after the Government of Nunavut incurred these many millions of additional costs?
The actual responsibility for doing that type of analysis on the impact of the NNI, as part of the joint responsibility for the Review Committee between the Government of Nunavut and Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated.
The responsibility from a department standpoint is with the responsibility of Economic Development and Transportation.
You indicated that you don’t have it at your fingertips, but do you know if the information actually exists?
Not being directly involved in the NNI reporting, I am not certain that precise information exists.
I think that is important information that the House should receive, either through this presentation of your contracts report or another process, or through the NNI Secretariat perhaps.
That lead in to my next question.
I am glad Mr. Rich raised it, the NNI Secretariat.
If Mr. Rich or the minister could explain how the NNI Secretariat and the Department of Economic Development and Transportation and Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated and the Department of Community and Government Services works together to implement the NNI Policy.
We are quite heavily involved with the Department of Economic Development.
They provide us advice and guidance on NNI related issues regarding contracting and purchasing.
The raw data that they use for their analysis, we provide to them.
Obviously, one of the two reports is the report that is provided specifically for NNI review purposes.
So we provide them that information.
As issue arise that the Steering Committee is concerned about with regard to NNI, they provide advice on that, as issue might particularly arise.
We have close contact through the committee with several departments, ourselves, EIA and Economic Development and Transportation all being represented on the NNI Committee.
I would say that there is a close working relationship.
Obviously this has developed over the last year because it is only the past year that there has been a formalized group of four individuals involved with the NNI that has been established in Economic Development and Transportation.
So that is starting to develop the relationship nicely, between the two departments.
Could Mr. Rich expand on the operations of the NNI Policy Secretariat and perhaps tell how they will differ from application of the NNI policy then when it was simply administered by the Department of Community and Government Services.
Actually the operational questions would have to be directed to the Department of Economic Development and Transportation that is responsible for it.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Rich.
Do we have anybody from Economic Development and Transportation that could answer that question in the House?
We don’t see the Minister responsible for Economic Development here.
I am sorry that I couldn’t really help with that one.
In our opening comments, I think we might have indicated or asked officials from different departments to be available to answer questions as the contracts came up.
That would be nice to have all the ministers here, just in case the questions go to either one of the ministers.
If the committee would like that, it’s something we can try and arrange and see if the staff in question would be in the building.
I think it’s important that we have someone here that can answer questions about the NNI policy, from the appropriate department. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Maybe we can take a five minute break and try and get the rest of the ministers here, so that if any of the members have questions to either one of the ministers, we’ll direct the questions.
We’ll have a five minute break
>>Committee recessed at 17:21 and resumed at 17:32
We’ll get back to the meeting.
I would like to remind all the Ministers to be here during our Committee of the Whole meeting just in case the questions go directly to the different Ministers.
I welcome Mr. Simailak to the House.
I had some questions on the NNI Policy Secretariat. I was asking the Minister how the operations of the NNI Policy Secretariat differ from policy that was administered by the Department of Community and Government Services.
I believe a communiqué saw the requests for Government of Nunavut officials to be here unless the ministers are ready to answer to the questions.
I will just remind you that a lot of the contracts that were put in before you, some of them were before out time.
Also some of the officials will probably, with their hands on experience, have more to add.
I give it at the discretion of the ministers and probably for clarification who is supposed to be here with us in the Committee of the Whole.
I apologize to the committee.
I was lead to believe otherwise.
I was lead to believe that my department was going to be next and not all departments all at the same time.
My officials are on their way over.
In terms of answering my colleague’s question, I have absolutely no idea on the answers to his questions.
The officials are on their way over, as we speak.
I would like to ask the committee, again, to see if we should have another five minute break until the departmental officials have arrived.
Can I just hold, keep your questions until Minister Simailak’s officials make it, and maybe get one of the other Members to ask questions directly to Minister Kilabuk.
Mr. Curley, sorry, Mr. Netser.
Now we’re really lost.
I just want to ask a quick question, page 17 of 40 on the 5th slot, location Chester Island.
I just want to know where Chester Island is, is that in Canada somewhere or one of the provinces?
We apologize, that appears to be a typo, it should be Chesterfield Inlet.
Have there ever been any RFP’s or tender proposals, tender cost from the government with respect to government construction signs or etc.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Netser, Mr. Rafter.
I believe there’s a standing offer for production of signs.
Can you explain what you just said to me?
Can you explain your answer to Mr. Netser, Mr. Rafter?
Mr. Rafter: The answer is yes, I believe a standing offer has been issued, when signage is required, similar to advertising, as it’s taken out, a contract is issued with the event.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Rafter, Mr. Netser.
In reviewing the documents here, the government has expended a quite a huge sum of money for the signs.
(Interpretation ends) If someone is starting a small business, they could really benefit from making these signs, instead of our money going down to somewhere in B.C. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Netser, Minister.
I totally agree with my colleague that for these projects where Nunavummiut should be able to take on and be capable of doing so, I totally agree that more Nunavummiut should be pursuing some of these.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister Kilabuk. Mr. Netser.
Whenever we see construction going on, housing project or other items, we should quote in plywood or the pallets, somebody could easily start, just a comment Mr. Chairman, a sign company, there are a lot of pallets out there and three quarter inch plywood and a lot of paint out there.
To the comment. Minister.
I totally agree with my colleague that Nunavummiut are best known for their ingenuity and I totally agree that there are a lot of creative ideas out in Nunavut which should be getting more attention.
We do encourage Nunavummiut to take it upon them to pursue these ventures or projects as they see fit.
I am just going back to my colleagues asked a three dollar question.
I wanted to ask a $3,800 question, which is a little bit more than what my colleague had asked earlier.
A bomber style fur hat from Northmart, what were they for?
I am just looking for that part.
Can my colleague indicate which page number that he is referring to?
Please refer to page numbers before your questions.
That way everybody would be on track.
My apologies to the House.
It is on page 22, somewhere down the lower half of the page, the bomber style fur hats.
Are those promotional items.
I think I’d be safe to guess that it was for the Legislature.
I really don’t have the information my colleague is looking for in this particular department.
Maybe my colleague would be in the position to help us with this one.
That is the only response I can give to my colleague.
My capable staff, once again, has come to the rescue, Mr. Chairman.
Those were for the Department of Sustainable Development.
I would like to remind the Members who are asking questions that we are dealing with two documents here: 101 and 102.
Please let us know which document you are asking questions to and page.
That way everybody will be on track.
My apologies to the House once again.
Is every little detail that we have been hearing a lot of micromanagement over the last year and a half?
Is every little penny that is being spent by the government documented in these two books?
Yes, in trying to live up to the request, we have presented as much information as we possibly can in this.
However to go back to my deputy minister’s comments earlier that we at Department of Community and Government Services cannot however guarantee the accuracy of contract information by all departments. So we will require the assistance of the appropriate departments to clarify for the member’s benefit of the question being asked.
I think this being our first appearance to present this to you.
Again this is a process that is a very obvious thing that needs more improvement in the future presentations.
Mr. Curley: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I was surprised that there was nothing about the marine transportation company contract.
It’s a huge amount. Is there any particular reason why they did not fit into this quoting of the contract?
We see all the air transportation contracts, charters and so on of any kind, but we don’t see any marine.
Could you guys explain why, could the information and the amount of dollars be made available to the committee as well?
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Curley, Minister Kilabuk.
No, unfortunately that one was a multi-year contract, that would not appear in this one that we present to you today Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Curley: We have multi-year contracts that are in the other vendors that we dealt with.
Would they have been in the other one, the multi-year?
We have leases over twenty years that are multi-year.
Is marine transportation midrange, I’m not sure if they are long term, some of them expire next year?
We are dealing with a procurement contract; they are legitimate agreements with the Government of Canada.
Does that mean you could not table them here, if you could table them, would you table them soon?
No, I think for the Member’s benefit, we need to explain further the multi-year contracts.
More specifically on the marine transportation contract, I’ll get Mr. Rich to elaborate on that more.
The contract document in front of you is for contracts that were entered into the 2003/04 fiscal year.
The marine contracts you’re referring to were entered in 2002/03, so they were in the year before, so we’re only reporting the ones that were entered into 2003/04.
Contracts that are entered in the future will be reported as they are entered into, for marine contracts, as well as for all other contracts. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. I suppose it’s a matter of how we terminate the contracts, my point is these are existing contracts and we are in the midst of them, you look at the leasing contract that we dealt with, they were entered into a while ago, some were a while ago, but still you reported them.
I couldn’t understand why that is the case in this one, because these are dollars that we incur.
I was curious because Mr. Rafter made a statement to the Chamber of Commerce in Rankin Inlet about those contracts.
He said the Government of Nunavut is saving dollars, but he did not elaborate exactly how those savings were being made.
You can easily save up dollars if there is hardly any service left.
It’s easy to understand, as far as Kivalliq is concerned.
Could the Minister make a commitment to table these multi-year contracts, marine transportation contracts?
There was also a request from another colleague to include previous years.
The response at the time was, again, it depends on how far we are going to go back and if it is acceptable to my colleague, we’re more then willing to take upon specific contracts that are agreeable to my colleagues for the information that they require, we can certainly get them more information.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister, Mr. Curley.
Yes, I may ask that another time.
The time is ticking during this session now.
The question that I would pursue is whether or not some of them couldn’t be privatized, or establish a free market system for marine cargo, similar to the air transportation free market system for freight coming daily.
I will leave that one for now.
I just want the Minister and his staff to explain how the invitational tenders differ from the public tender mode.
Before I ask another question, could you explain to us exactly why the invitational tenders are used?
And maybe describe exactly how that is carried out.
Invitational tenders are entertained when there is a body of known suppliers that can do the work, and where essentially those are the only suppliers that are available to do the work.
We don’t use them as often as other tenders.
We typically look for northern firms, and limit to northern firms in a particular community.
There are guidelines within the contracting guidelines that specifically apply to invitational tenders.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. Thank you for the information, Mr. Rich.
My follow-up to that is does the criteria that are listed in the NNI Policy with respect to employment.
Are they part of the guidelines that you mentioned, or the guidelines for the invitational tenders have a different criterion in terms of labour content and others?
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Curley. Mr. Rich.
The NNI applies to both invitational tenders and regular tenders.
I have one item here with Rankin Inlet on the page eight of the forty on the list of contracts with respect to small contracts for janitorial cleaning services.
I believe these types of contracts are quite competitive in the communities.
I know for a fact that these are competitive.
Why would a mode IT be used for that kind of stuff when in fact there are quite competitive because they appear to be using that mode rather than wide open competitive tender process and really limiting it to maybe one, as far as I am concerned in Rankin Inlet?
In many cases, and janitorial services is one, regional offices will maintain a list of companies and companies are invited on a regular basis to submit their names for tenders for which they wish to apply.
Then an invitational is offered to all of those companies that apply for it.
In small communities this works, generally, quite well because it is well known that those tenders come up on a regular basis.
It is also well known who is interested in doing the work.
We’ll get phone calls often from companies asking if we have a list on a particular item, janitorial services is one, paid services are another.
We automatically put their names on the list and they are then included on the next tender.
A follow-up to that.
When that mode is used the notice is put out to tender, or is it a matter of calling them up.
Exactly how does the IT process operating carried out?
The tender documents are prepared the same as any regular tender.
They are mailed directly to the individuals or they are invited to come and pick them up.
They are formally sent out to the materials the same as it would be for an advertised tender, it is just that it is done straight from the list that have already been established.
I believe this mode, this process is pretty much a sole sourced arrangement.
Will you either consider that one or the group?
So the contracting manager, project manager, doesn’t really quite know, or maybe not friends with the group or the town, could neglect to call some of these groups.