EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
There will be more Inuit employed out there, especially if they have an idea of what it takes to work in our communities.
I just wanted to comment on these issues and thank you, Mr. Chairperson.
We are going to deal with the main estimates.
We are on page 3-6.
Total operations and maintenance 2 million 857 thousand dollars.
Under fees and payments 1 million 685 thousand dollars.
It’s more than the previous funding allocation from 2001/2002 which was 1 million 647 thousand dollars.
There’s a slight increase, perhaps there’s hardly any change on that line and that’s why it’s like that.
The funding increase of 38 thousand dollars is specific to training and development for the assistant deputy ministers.
It’s 1 million dollars to train the ADMs.
Perhaps this is due to the assistant deputy ministers having a very high turn over rate with the changeovers and so on.
Is that why this line item is like that?
This is the same ADM we’ve had since April 01, 1999.
It’s 1 million dollars and there’s no change even though your ADM is the same.
Perhaps you train other ADMs on top of the deputy ministers.
Perhaps you fund the orientation of the other departmental deputy ministers and their assistants.
Mr. Chairman, maybe I should just clarify for the record.
It isn’t 1 million dollars.
The member may be referring to the training money for beneficiaries that I indicated in my opening comments.
That comes later on in a different section.
This 1 million 685 thousand dollars, 1 million 635 thousand dollars of that Mr. Chairman, is for the equal pay costs, the ongoing legal costs for the equal pay dispute that’s been under way that we inherited along with the GNWT.
The only addition I had mentioned is the 38 thousand dollars that was specific to training for the ADM. That was where the increase was in this total budget item.
For the same line item, how long will it take to pay for the equal pay costs?
And how long do we expect that equal pay dispute to go on?
Mr. Chairman, as you know, this pay equity issue was with the GNWT and it’s been at least ten years if not longer that it’s been with four different adjudicated bodies and courts and so forth.
Since April 01, 1999, obviously we became involved because we have a portion of that liability because former GNWT employees would have carried on with the Government of Nunavut or ones that had been involved prior to that, that have worked in Nunavut.
Based on the assets and liabilities table, we have our proportional share of liability on that.
Obviously, given the time frame that’s taken place, there has been steady progress on the whole file but it isn’t at the stage yet for clear resolution to the issue.
We would hope to get there as quickly as possible.
I think all stakeholders would want that, to put some clarity to the issue and closure to the issue.
It will continue for a little while.
Is there anything new that you expect will crop up from the dispute?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Well Mr. Chairman, during the course of this whole matter there have always been times where the bodies have thought that they were close to resolution, putting some closure to it and getting an agreement.
But for a lot of reasons it falls off the table again.
To be optimistic we hope that something could be reached over the course of the current year, and that’s the best that individuals could hope for.
Mr. Arvaluk: So this is not the payment to the employees, or former employees but more for the litigation, for the lawyers and things like that.
The member is correct, there has been, as members may recall back with the Government of the Northwest Territories, at one point they sent out offers to individuals in trying to reach a resolution to the issue and I believe that at that time, there was over I think it was 70 percent of individuals that had been made offer individually had signed off and received payment.
But there is still obviously a portion of the employees and individuals that didn’t accept that and are still involved.
Chairperson (interpretation): Do you want to continue?
Page 3 – 6.
Total operations and maintenance 2 million 857 thousand.
Mr. Chairman, under the compensation and benefits in this area there is an increase from the initial main estimates last year of 858 thousand to the 938 thousand.
I would like to ask the minister if that covers off any new PYs or is it just a result of changes in the collective agreement since last year?
Mr. Chairman, this increase in this specific area is strictly for the financial impact of the collective agreement.
No new PYs.
How many PYs fall under the directorate?
I believe it is 33.
Chairperson (interpretation): Would you like to continue Mr. Tootoo?
Sorry I would just like to correct the record on that.
On further study of the detail actually for this particular branch there are 10 PYs, 33 throughout the division, but for this branch I will correct that.
Page 3 – 7.
Fiscal Management.
Total operations and maintenance 21 million 119 thousand.
Under contract services, what is that used for?
Could the minister clarify that for me?
Chairperson (interpretation): Every time I mention your name, you guys can press your mute button to talk amongst your officials; if you want to be heard, just release the button.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: I was just reading my notes, Mr. Chairman.
For contract services the bulk of the 9.4 million dollars is for the NCC leases for our GN office buildings.
There have been a few increases for this year in respect to a few other contract areas.
Chairperson (interpretation): Would you like to continue Mr. Arvaluk?
Mr. Arvaluk: NCC building leases for Iqaluit, Kugluktuk, everywhere?
All the GN buildings that were assumed from the Nunavut Construction Corporation on April 1, 1999 and afterwards when they were completed.
Mr. Arvaluk: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don’t want to get off track here, but is there any way, in your preamble for fiscal management for example, or any other preambles in the financial accounting system, can we be a little bit more specific.
For example, contract services 10 million 360 thousand or 9.4 portion is for the NCC leases, etc.
Just by looking at this page for example, I cannot tell what the contract services are for.
A lot of times we have to ask for clarification on behalf of the public what is entailed in contract services.
Could that possibly be consideration for clearer or more precise information for the public?
Especially communities who will be receiving the Main Estimates and they will know what they are for.
Yes we can take a look at that.
Perhaps it is on this page or another page of this budget, please inform me if I am mistaken.
The training positions, where are they going to be based?
I will ask that first before I continue with my line of questioning.
It is in the compensation and benefits in this fiscal management branch.
We did not hear the response.
Could you state it again Mr. Ng.
It is in the compensation and benefits section, the line here in this branch.
Well that’s understandable.
In terms of training, where are these 10 positions located and in which communities?
Where would they be located?
I’ll ask Mr. Vardy to give out the plan in respect to the individuals.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Ng. Mr. Vardy.
The positions, there will be at least 10 positions in our department, possibly 12 or more.
And as it stands right now there are two positions in Igloolik, one in Cambridge Bay, one in Rankin Inlet, and there’s eight positions in Iqaluit.
Mr. Havioyak (interpretation): I apologize. I wasn’t really listening.
Did he say that there were 12 or more positions?
I just wanted to get a clarification on that.
There will be at least 12 positions under this program.
We’re still working out the details of the program with the Department of Human Resources and right now we’re looking at two positions in the town of Igloolik, in our regional financial office there.
There will be one in Cambridge Bay, one in Rankin Inlet, and there will be eight positions at the headquarters in Finance here in Iqaluit.
Mr. Havioyak (interpretation): That’s fine.
Thank you, for your response. (interpretation ends) So these are jobs or trainees along with the existing positions.
Let’s say for example, do you have finance officer to be hired, a finance officer trainee aside from that first.
The classifications of the positions have yet to be worked out with the Department of Human Resources.
What we are recommending is that the positions be at various levels, we will have, our current proposal is to have four manager level positions and there will be about five or six positions at the officer or analyst level and there will be a least a couple of positions at the entry level to allow for people with high school education to come into our department.
The exact classifications should get worked out over the next couple of weeks as we get our work completed with the Department of Human Resources.
The plan is for those positions to be created on a permanent basis and to allow people to go through those positions to take on permanent positions in our department, other permanent positions, as well as in finance sections in other departments and then other people can come in to the training program.
But some of the people, if they are, for example, being trained into an accounting program, it could take several years for them to complete the training program.
So, it’ll be very much tailored to individual circumstances; the length of training and the details.
They’re not really training positions then.
It’s only training for those people that are going to take on that job.
I’m just looking at the trainee part of it. Having a manager in a position and that Innuinaq would be a trainee.
That’s what I was looking for actually, on the trainee for management level positions there and when I looked at this I thought it might have been a training position for those management positions that were already filled.
But from what I hear I don’t think they are training positions.
But you could correct me again on that Mr. Minister.
I am just looking for training positions and to see if under there we have any beneficiaries.
I hear you when you say these are training, these positions are not really a trainee under the existing management positions I guess.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Havioyak. Mr. Vardy.
In some cases what you are suggesting will be the case.
For example in the community of Igloolik we opened up an office and we brought in one director position from outside.
If we were to have that office fully functioning right from the beginning we would have had to bring in a number of people from outside of the community to handle the work.
But we didn’t fill the regular two management positions that fell under the directorate, but instead we’ve got four people from Igloolik that will be trained.
Two under this program and two in the permanent manager positions that will have a fairly intensive training program and the director there will spend a large percentage of his time working with those individuals in providing training on the job as well as arranging it where we can send two people at a time to academic programs.
As well at headquarters we have two people that will be trained as managers.
But an individual, one of our other managers will be assigned to these people to help them learn their jobs.
So it is a combination of on the job training and academic courses.
It will give us extra resources that we can allow people to have free time to do academic training in accounting and other areas.
We are working with Arctic College; it’s developing training programs. Also we are working with, there is an aboriginal finance management program as well as mainly by a First Nations group.
And we are trying to have that program tailored to our situation.
So even though we have twelve positions in Iqaluit and other communities in this program, we are hoping to set up a training program that a lot of people can do the training, but it will be most intensive for those people that are accepted into the program, into the training positions.
I will go with my question that I asked earlier; here there is quite an increase, almost 3.2 million dollars in compensation and benefits over the initial amount from the Main Estimates last year.
I would just like to get estimation to that from the minister.
I know there are 12 new training positions included in there but I don’t think that 3.2 million is just going towards training.
So if I could just get an estimation that would be great.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the member is correct.
Two million dollars of that increase is specific to the collective agreement with the Nunavut Employees’ Union in respect of parental leave and bilingual bonus and mentoring allowance which is held collectively for all of the government here with Finance.
Also there is 220 thousand of another amount for the collective agreement specific to finance and the NEU collective agreement.
The other 800 thousand of course is the training for beneficiaries that we mentioned earlier.
Mr. Chairman, I am just wondering if this increase or the amount that the minister indicated is there for other changes in the collective agreement, were those things always included in the compensation and benefits amount for this area or is this something that was distributed amongst the departments in previous years and this year is showing up in this section?
Mr. Chairman, this is the first time to my understanding with this collective agreement, it is being held, and it has not been dispersed to the departments yet.
Mr. Chairman, I believe previously not today but I think there was, the minister can correct me if I am wrong, there were about 39 PYs in this section.
I am just wondering if all those positions are full-time positions.
Does this area have any contract positions working for them?
Mr. Chairman, these are all full-time positions, although we do have a couple of contracts, consultants on contract.
Can the minister indicate what areas those consultants that they have contracted to do working for the department.
What exactly do they do?
We have a couple of contracts; one in respect to support for the program review, and one in respect to development of a leasing policy.
Will the minister be willing to provide us with a list of who these consultants are?
We have Dave Ramsden on in respect to the program review and we have Ms. Robin Sinclair in respect to the leasing work.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Ng. Anything else, Mr. Tootoo.
Mr. Chairman, there is again quite an increase in fee and payments.
There is almost three million dollars.
I just want to get an explanation as to what that increase is for.
Mr. Chairman, the bulk of the 2.8 million dollars is again for the NEU collective agreement specific to the training components and issues in the agreement.
Mr. Chairman, the minister and his Deputy had indicated that they are looking at hiring twelve training positions here.
They also indicated roughly where those positions are going to go.
I know in Iqaluit we have a severe housing shortage.
I am just wondering where the department plans on putting these people if they hire them.
Do they have housing for them here in Iqaluit and do they have housing in the other communities for these individuals as well?
Mr. Chairman, the hope would be that they would be able and competent individuals hired from the municipalities in which we are trying to target the training needs, so that they would already be in the community and have housing.
Has the department started looking for these people already or when will they plan on putting out advertising and looking for these competent individuals in our communities?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: We haven’t specifically put out any ads for that, but it’s in the works right now Mr. Chairman.
I guess in the minister’s department, they’ve never thought of looking at putting out a competition like this.
Training someone and looking for people that are, for all intents and purposes, are going to be working within the government system already. That impact that’s going to have basically…hiring all these people from other departments, and then the people that they’re going to have to try and find to replace that person.
You’re going to be in a situation where they may need staff housing to replace that person.
I'm just wondering if there was any thought to, are we limiting to just the people that are outside the public services or inside the public services, if we’re going to have detrimental impact on the other departments.
That we’ve heard all along, we’re having trouble attracting and retaining these financial people within those departments.
No, we haven’t quite frankly, looked at trying to put any restrictions on whether they’re from outside or from internally within the government.
The main focus is obviously individuals that would be qualified and have an interest in the financial field that we can develop to benefit the government or any other organization for that matter if they choose to leave afterwards.
Mr. Tootoo: I guess no thought’s been given to looking at the impact it may have on the other departments and their abilities to meet their financial requirements if these people are going to come from those departments.
Mr. Chairman, the point I’m trying to make is that regardless of if they come from another department into finance, there’s opportunities for them, after they’re trained to go back out into other departments or into other organizations after they advance and develop more of their skills in the financial area.
And right now, even now, that happens within government.
We have people from finance that have the experience here, develop some expertise and go out into other departments where there is a promotion to another department or providing services to other departments within government.
So, that happens right now anyways Mr. Chairman.
Thank you. I have no other names on my list.
We’re on the Department of Finance.
Total operations and maintenance 21 million 119 thousand dollars.
I thought someone else was going to ask questions and I would give someone else a chance.
I have another one here, it says that this division, fiscal management looks at their tax regime and also monitors the formula financing agreement.
Was this the division that came up with the changes that the minister announced in his budget address on the tax break that all Nunavummiut are going to benefit from?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Yes it is Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, I’d like to ask the minister, I know that since we adopted the TONI legislation last year, at that time the minister and his department indicated that they had no plans of making any changes to that.
I’d just like to ask the minister what prompted the quick change all of a sudden before any members even knew about it, that there were all of a sudden all these changes on the taxes.
The fact that I am the Finance Minister, I took the prerogative to look at those initiatives and ask for the impact government-wide and it initiated some initial response from my Financial Management Board colleagues in respect to support or no support for that and finalized the decision based on that.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I know when we looked at the TONI legislation, one of the recommendations that the committee made was prior to any changes being made to the tax regime that the department look at setting up an independent committee or structure to take a look at some of the changes that may impact Nunavummiut.
I’d just like to ask why the minister chose not to go that route.
I know that as an example, that’s something that our sister territory the NWT did, was to establish a committee of independent experts in the tax field to take a look at it and make some recommendations.
I’d like to ask the minister why he chose not to do that over here?
In reviewing the fiscal situation of the government and in developing and finalizing the budget, I thought we didn’t have sufficient time to implement a broad based consultation process and decided to go ahead.
So basically what you’re saying is that you needed something done quickly to put in the budget address and you chose changes based on consultations within his department staff and no one else.
Is that what he’s indicating?
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Tootoo. Mr. Ng.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: That’s one aspect of it Mr. Chairman, as well as the fact that from a broad tax perspective, our tax structure is quite a bit different than other jurisdictions, even the Northwest Territories in the portion of our self-generated taxes, so that was another significant factor.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman is the minister anticipating any other changes to our tax structure?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Not until next year’s budget development Mr. Chairman.
I’d like to ask the minister, in looking at changes for next year; he had indicated that there may be some.
Will they use a process to allow for input and consultation work, other than departmental staff and the cabinet?
As much as possible I guess given that we’re always trying to receive input and consultation over the course of the year no matter where we may be throughout Nunavut.
We’re always trying to seek input and changes, except for when we don’t want to I guess.
One of the other things here that I mentioned that this area looks at is the formula financing agreement and I’d like to ask the minister, what’s happened to date with the formula financing review.
Where are they at along the way, maybe you can update us.
I know that’s something that has been asked about on a regular basis here in the House.
When can we expect to see something concrete come out of that process?
I’ll ask Mr. Vardy to give the member an update of the negotiations and the timelines right now.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Ng. Mr. Vardy.
The current five year formula financing arrangement expires March 31, 2004.
And we are involved in negotiations with Federal Government right now upon renewing for another five year term.
Most of the negotiations involve the Yukon and the Northwest Territories as well, Nunavut and the Federal Government.
We’ve had two preliminary meetings to get that process started and it’ll probably be another year before we’re at the stage where negotiations are close to firming up for the next renewal process.
We are trying to get changes to the formula to, that would be of interest to all territories but also there are some specific things that are of interest primarily to Nunavut so we’re hopeful to make some progress along that line.
I think all members would probably agree that the formula financing agreement that we have in place isn’t adequate for us and looking at the many shortfalls and things that we need up here in Nunavut that the formula doesn’t address.
So, I really don’t like the term “renew it.”
I think we should seriously renegotiate some of the things in that formula and not simply look at renewing this formula seriously look at changing some of the things in there.
Things like any, according to the existing formula, I believe, any of our own source revenue that we generate they claw back from the formula financing agreement by the Federal Government.
You know what kind of incentive is there for us to try to become more self-sufficient, basically if we raise any extra money the Feds are going to take it away from the money that they give us.
Another area that I think that we need some improvements on is the infrastructure funding.
I don’t know if that falls under this area but there are many areas like that, that we need to bring to the attention of the Federal Government that the formula doesn’t adequately fund this territory to be able to provide the services and the infrastructure needs throughout our territory.
So as a suggestion to the minister and to the department that they don’t just go simply renew, don’t look at it as renewing an agreement and go back and renegotiate and make sure that we have some things in the new agreement that’ll positively impact us and not just keep the people in Ottawa happy.
We would agree with the member’s comments on the formula financing.