EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Does the committee agree to bring in the officials to the witness table?
Chairman: Sergeant-at-Arms, if you would escort the witnesses, please.
Welcome, Madame Minister.
To my right is the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services Ron Browne.
To my left is the Manager of Capital Projects for the department Rosemary Brown.
For the record, no relation.
I also want to introduce a person in the audience this afternoon is Dave Richardson, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services and he heads the Health and Social Services headquarters operations in Cambridge Bay.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Ms. Aglukkaq. (interpretation ends) Before we proceed, I would like to remind members of the following: according to Rule 77(1), you have ten minutes to speak, and according to Rule 77(2), subject to the discretion of the Chair, a member may speak more than once to a matter under discussion, but not until every member wishing to speak has spoken.
I suggest to the members that whenever possible, you ask your detailed questions during the page-by-page review of the departmental estimates.
Madame Minister, Browne 1, Browne 2, welcome to the Committee of the Whole and I am glad Minister Brown is not the Health Minister anymore, otherwise a lot of Nunavummiut would be getting confused with Minister Brown as the Minister and so on. Welcome.
We have heard a lot on health. I would like to say a few things from my community.
There are always a lot of complaints on health, especially when nurses and a few of them that I had talked to you about, and you had responded. I’m glad that you had responded, Madame Minister, on the complaint that came up.
There’s one thing that I sure would like to see is that dentists go to the communities, rather than sending them there every three months or so because it seems like some of our constituents, when they get a toothache, or if their filling had fallen off, and they will be in pain for about two to three months. That’s not a good thing.
A lot of our constituents are always saying new things like, “The nurses want us to go through pain because they don’t want to send us, especially when there’s an emergency.”
I sure hope that things will get a lot better over the years because when you have a toothache, especially when you’re not working, you can be in pain for about two to three months and that’s not a good thing for individuals.
I sure hope that things will be fixed up properly.
Due to some patients that need escorts, especially the elders who don’t speak in English or understand they’re the ones that always need escorts and they don’t even need their tickets when they’re leaving for that, they should have escorts.
For those who have cancer, when they’re sent out alone to get treatment, they get worried about their kids, loved ones that are at home and they are also worried about the patient that is going out for chemotherapy. They should have escorts.
That’s about it, Mr. Chairman.
Any other general comments?
Looking through your capital plan projects I see with interest, some capital projects for retrofitting and new health centers, especially three new regional hospitals, some near completion.
What concerns me still is that we are lacking an aggressive nursing training program. The department and the government say, yes we are being really aggressive in trying to get these nurses trained in Nunavut in connection with the Universities in the south.
However, when the government did not say that they will have aggressive Akitsiraq Law School that is if they’re aggressive by providing a very good incentive in the area of benefits, housing benefits, wages, and other very strong support, in fact my little sister’s daughter will be graduating from Nunavut Bar pretty soon, which I am very proud of.
The way I would like to see is that because of the nursing shortage across the North America, and in Canada we will have to have better nursing programs that are geared for successful, happy, healthy students with their family during the course until graduation.
I don’t know what the relationship is because our Premier is a lawyer, which I am also very proud of, that he took the Law School in a similar situation in other words.
He said when I was going to school in Law School, I worked very hard, I suffered financially, I’m not going to make the Law School students in the similar circumstances that I was in, that’s very understandable, I’m very proud of that too, but the health nurses students of Nunavut should be seen the same way, you can only push a human being, especially a young human being so far, then you can make that person eventually give up.
I would like to see a better design so that we’ll have comfortable living conditions for our nursing students, because when you’re getting those new health centres and three hospitals, you will need those personnel; extremely important.
Another point I would like to make, Mr. Chairman, is that we have experimented in Pond Inlet by having bone specialists come up to Pond to do examinations etcetera, and it was reported that this is a success, a lot cheaper than shipping individual patients from Pond Inlet, I think around 10 of them went to southern hospitals and bring them back again.
And a lot, and they don’t have to leave their children and their families behind, and I would like to comment on the Health Department for doing that.
I think they would also try to expand for other specialist requirements in the community by importing a specialized doctor to do that in some other communities.
I know Pond Inlet was a pilot project, but it was already successful before it even started, because it’s nothing compared to having to be stuck in Ottawa or somewhere else to see a specialist. One by one that’s requiring same doctor.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Arvaluk.
Just to remind the members that we’re on general comments for Capital Estimates for the Department of Health and Social Services.
We’re still under general comments in regard to the Capital Estimates of the Department of Health and Social Services.
Please watch the time. Mr. Tootoo.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, this time or that time.
I have a few general comments in relation to minister’s opening comments and some comments made in response to questions during Question Period today.
Dealing with the boarding home issue, the minister indicated that they’re looking at an RFP for renovations or a new boarding home here in Iqaluit.
And in her opening comment, indicated that in Cambridge Bay, they’re looking at tendering this fall, this coming fall, for renovations to the old residence here and I assume that’s for use as a boarding home and in Rankin Inlet as well.
She preludes those comments in her comments of saying that no, nothing is identified in the capital budget they we are looking at for this year.
Also, I noticed even in the five-year capital plan that there’s nothing in there for the boarding home.
I’m just wondering, and I’ll be looking to ask the minister where this funding is going to be coming from and when she expects to come forward and seek approval from this House to go forward with those projects.
One of the other questions, I’ll be looking to ask the minister when we get to the appropriate H-6 on the capital budget that deals with the regional hospital here.
All members will recall they recently had a tour up there and I’ll be looking to confirm with the minister on the completion dates and the schedules and things like that.
I think all members are aware the contractor involved has had some difficulties meeting time lines in the past.
I just want some assurances that we are not going to run into the same problem that was run into here at the middle school, or the airport in Gjoa Haven with the same contractor.
So these are my general comments for now and when we get to appropriate sections I’ll be asking those questions to the minister.
Chairman: I have no more members on my list for general comments.
We will now proceed to go page-by-page to deal with the departmental estimates starting with page H-6.
I indicated earlier, the minister notes in her opening comments about the arrangements being made for regional boarding homes in the three regions and I realize there’s nothing identified in this year’s capital budget, but also, there’s nothing in the five-year capital plan in the back of this.
I would like to ask the minister if she can explain how she foresees this process progressing, especially in light, she indicated that they are going to be doing some work this coming fiscal year in Cambridge Bay.
I will start with the Cambridge Bay facility.
The Cambridge Bay facility, as the member mentioned, is an old high school student residence. That facility is owned by the government and had been constructed sometime ago.
We have purchased some equipment to do some renovations in that facility, such as an elevator as an example, and that process will be dealt with, I think it is now in the spring in terms of request for proposals for that one.
Because the building is already there, there is no capital plan in the books for that one.
The other two for Rankin Inlet, as members are aware that there is no boarding home there and the one here is very small.
What we are doing with those two is that we are going forward with a request for proposals in January after Christmas, after this month to construct a boarding home in Rankin Inlet and possibly renovate and expand the one here or construct a new one.
Those are things that will be in the request for proposals.
In terms of the costs that will be covered for those projects for Rankin Inlet and here, that will be covered through the Health Canada funding that we receive to operate the boarding homes.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I thank the minister for that response.
It is nice to be able to spend someone else’s money for a change. She indicated that there is some work being done on the Cambridge Bay one and on the Rankin Inlet facility, what we call the Rankin file.
The facility here in Iqaluit is being covered by Non-Insured Health Benefits, Health Canada.
She indicated that the project in Cambridge Bay, they are going to go ahead with that and I know even though it may be a government asset right now, capital projects for renovation and things like, that money still has to come from somewhere.
So I am wondering…it is not in this capital plan. It is not in the five-year capital plan. I am wondering where that money is going to come from.
The funding for the Cambridge Bay facility to renovate the old student residence, that money was a carry-over from 2006. It was carried over.
If this is a carry-over, I am wondering why it was carried over, was it because of the same contractor that was working on the hospital here.
Mr. Chairman I am going to ask Rosemary to explain what happened there with the carry-overs for the Cambridge Bay facility.
The design of the renovation of the Cambridge Bay boarding home is nearly complete. It was delayed.
The design, which was won by a firm from Yellowknife, has had to undergo some changes due to some requirements of the Office of the Fire Marshal and the electrical inspector.
They wanted some changes because it was going from a student to mixed adult, children and some in wheelchairs. So the tender for the construction could not go out this spring in time for sealift.
The funds for the renovations of the boarding home are currently in the 2006-07 budget, the tender will go out say February, and then there will be a request for the government to move the remaining funds for construction from 2006-07 into 2007-08. So the funds are there. In terms of this plan, it shows as a prior year.
It is good to hear that the reasons for the delay aren’t three letters. That will lead into my next question that I had indicated I’d ask on this in dealing with the Regional Hospital here.
We all had a tour up there not very long ago.
I think all members would attest to saying that it is going to be a beautiful facility.
My first question to the minister in relation to that project is: have their original timelines for completion been changed?
I will ask the deputy minister to respond to that.
Mr. Browne.
Mr. Brown: The original substantial completion date for the hospital was December of 2006 with agreement because of some changes wanted to be made by us, that has now been moved to February 28, 2007. That is on schedule for substantial completion.
Following that there needs to be a commissioning of the building, testing the systems to make sure that everything is working properly before patients are moved in. So it will more likely be around the summer of 2007 when patients would move into the new facility.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Browne.
Mr. Browne indicated that the date had changed. It looks like it’s three months late now as a result of some things; ones that were changed by them. I was wondering if he could specifically identify what the other areas were and as well what that change that they requested was there.
Hospitals have to have high humidity and it was noted that there was need for a special heater to be installed just inside the windows so that there would not be condensation around the windows, which could either cause infection or future damage to the building.
So bringing those windows and making those changes was essentially a little bit of a redesign and labour issue.
There are normal things that happen during construction. Sometimes materials don’t come on the first boat or the second boat. Given the complexity of the building, this building started construction in 2004.
Other projects experience short delays.
Chairman: Thank you, Madame Browne.
Ms. Browne had indicated materials not arriving on time.
I am just wondering if the department has looked into it.
I know in the case that was run into at the middle school where the contractor wasn’t aware of the deadlines that they had to meet for shipping schedules.
I’m just wondering: what was the reason why…if they looked into and found out what the reasons were, why the materials didn’t arrive on time.
Ms. Browne.
Basically this time it was not a problem of the contractor.
There are many ships that come to Iqaluit during the summer, sometimes materials get, if the ship is full, it gets divided up and materials arrive on the next ship. We experience this in other communities.
In terms of Chesterfield Inlet, we had early, early, early ordered some new beds and a patient lift for the residents. We had ordered in July, but it really came on the last sealift in the end of September, which we were very surprised.
We did not have a choice of that, it was the marshalling agent and how they filled up the ship.
I also noted on our tour that I think for a project of that magnitude that there would be quite a few people working up there, and it seemed like there was hardly anybody there.
There were only a few working and I think that…and that was one of the things I found at the middle school as well; you go through there when they are doing the work and there was hardly anyone there doing the work.
I’m just wondering if, again I’m being sceptical at believing what the contractor is saying that they’re going to be done on time, given they have what would seem like sparse resources that are doing the work necessary to make sure that the project will be done on time.
So I’m just wondering if that was something that the minister would like to comment on or not.
This is probably one of the largest projects that we’ve had in Nunavut to date, I know just in terms of the discussions, it started back in 1997-98 and we’re almost there in terms of finishing off the capital project here.
The target dates that they have provided us, as the deputy mentioned is 2007.
There’s a group, Qikiqtaaluk Corporation, Community and Government Services, and our office, as well as Department of Finance has a working group that reviews this project regularly just to be on top of the magnitude of the project.
So I can only go on a basis of the information they have given me to date and that is they are looking at a February 2007 completion, and to do all the necessary testing of the equipment, and then the next phase would be to move the services from the old hospital in a staged way not to disrupt any services.
So as it is right now, the information we just shared is what we know today, and again, Rosemary works closely with the project managers, as well as Qikiqtaaluk Corporation officials and any change to that I will be able to share that with members.
I can appreciate what the minister is saying.
I mean, in a way we here in the House are the in the same boat, you know, we get information from the government that says this is what’s going to happen or the ministers get information from the departments that say this is going to happen and when; I guess, based on experience in this case, and I’m sure the Minister of Education will attest to that, where they were told all along, no problem, no problem, no problem, then all of a sudden: oops, big problem.
I hope we don’t find ourselves in the same situation with this project and I would just encourage the minister and the minister responsible for Community and Government Services to be overly diligent, I guess.
I mean, one could almost say we’ve been led down the garden path once by someone; we don’t want to follow down that same path again.
Because it’s too...in one particular case there, I mean there are students who have lost two weeks of school as a result of that.
Given the track record here of the contractor, like I mentioned in the middle school, I believe even in Gjoa Haven, they’re doing the airport there that I think it’s up to two years behind schedule, that there would be a little bit of extra due diligence in this case to make sure that we aren’t being led down the garden path again.
I don’t believe there was a question, but I share the member’s concern and if there are any changes to the timing of this project, I will communicate that as soon as I know.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Madame Minister. We’re on Health and Social Services.
It’s my last question relating to this particular project for now, bit of a disclaimer there.
Also, when we went through that facility and I’m not sure if it’s the Health Minister that’s responsible for that, or if she can find out from the appropriate minister, is what the Inuit employment requirements were for the contract on there and what they said they would have.
I know the day we toured through there, I counted three people; three Inuit on that project that we saw, and that’s it.
One of them was carrying out empty boxes; one of them was outside painting and putting something on the wood at below zero conditions. I wonder about that, if that’s something that the minister is not aware of.
I wonder if she would be willing to check with the appropriate minister and either one of those ministers informing the members on that.
I didn’t hear a question, but if you would like to respond, Madame Minister.
I believe there is a requirement for that in the contract with Community and Government Services. I can get the percentage from them.
I don’t know what the current Inuit employment is with the hospital capital project with Qikiqtaaluk Corporation, but I can firmly commit to asking my colleague for that information and sharing it with the House.
We’re on page H-6.
In the Chairman’s opening comments, there were three hospitals that were delayed by two days.
With the $500,000 that was identified, is it for a minor project or a small capital?
And, looking at the Keewatin Replacement Health Centre for Repulse Bay 2006-07 $305,000; has this fund already been expended for the hospital?
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Mapsalak, Minister Aglukkaq.
Can you ask the member to clarify as to what page he is referring?
We were on page H-6.
Mr. Mapsalak if you could elaborate further if you could explain further.
I think it was on page H-6. Nunavut various.
I was asking under Nunavut various if that is included with that previous page for Repulse Bay which is mentioned on 2006. So my question is Repulse Bay is under Nunavut various.
In order for everyone to be clear, which appendix or page are you talking about Mr. Mapsalak?
Appendix 10.
I am just looking for that appendix 10. The $305,000 Repulse Bay, if he’s asking me if that’s included in H-6, 500.
The amount that you see on H-6 under minor projects, these are for minor renovations of the facilities and/or the second line is purchases of small capital equipment, for example vehicles and so on.
Should we need to fix doors, ramps, or windows over the year, this is the fund that we would use to apply that, so it does not include the funding for the project to design and construct the Repulse Bay project. That project would not be considered a minor project; it will be a complete construction of a new facility.
And thank you for giving a response to that, minister.
I don’t know if this is included in there, but if you can correct me: even though these are delayed in the three regions, if the health centres are replaced what will happen to the apartments that the nurses use in those communities. What will become of the old health centres once they are replaced?
In the design of the new health centre for Repulse Bay, as well the one that we are working on for Arctic Bay, we have to decide whether that project will include apartments for the nurse practitioners that will be working in the health centre.
As it is right now those two facilities provide housing in the same structure. If we are looking at constructing a new health centre in Repulse Bay without apartments attached to it then we’d have to go back to Nunavut Housing Corporation and say we need staff housing to fill those jobs in the communities.
Arctic Bay is in the same situation as well as Repulse Bay.
We’re in the design stage right now.
I’ve asked my staff to work with the Housing Corporation to ensure that housing is a factor in the development of these facilities, because in the smaller communities there is even less housing to provide these staffing.
So it is a challenge for us and we want to include a discussion with Housing, as well as Community and Government Services, whether we could include apartments in replacing the old health centres that currently have those. So it is ongoing in the design.
One of the other pieces we also have to look at is the programs being offered in each health centre. With additional programs requires additional space, or specialized space, as an example.
Rosemary here has been working to address the questions that you’re asking because it is something that we have to consider to not disrupting the services at the health centres.
My last question: what will become of the old health centres once they are no longer in use, or once they are replaced?
What will become of those health centres, not just in my community, but other communities too once they are not being used?
As we work to finalize the design of the health centres for Arctic Bay and Repulse Bay, whether we will continue to use the old facilities will depend on whether the housing is included in the new design, in the upstairs of those facilities, or inside are apartments for the nurses. If there is no housing, we would most likely need to continue to operate the old facilities.
The best case scenario is the apartments are included in the hew health centres, then I believe the process that the government follows is to work with the property managers like Community and Government Services, and then they would do the process of whether it’s surplus or tendering it out to the private sector, or the hamlet, and so on.
I believe that procedure would follow. Again, it would depend on whether there will be a need to continue to use the apartments.
Chairman (interpretation): We’re on Health and Social Services.
Detail of Capital. Directorate.
I have a very short question under H-6, Nunavut Various Minor Projects.
Last June during our spring session, I also raised this question.
I thought it was going to be worked on this summer about the entranceway of the new hospital.
The parking lot is used for parking and it’s quite dangerous, it’s scary for those patients who have a hard time walking.