EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Mr. Curley.  Mr. Curley (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
We are on page J-17. (interpretation ends) Petroleum Products.
I thank the minister and her officials for joining us again here today.
I have a few questions here pertaining to the Kitikmeot.
The reason I ask about the Kitikmeot is because I don’t see any reference to Kitikmeot tank farms.
I thought I’d ask these questions just to clarify a few things.
Can the minister explain to me how her department determines if a community tank farm is up to capacity for a community?
In each region, the regional staff visit in consultation with the communities.
It’s an ongoing process and issue because a lot of these tank farms are getting smaller for some communities, where they need to be larger.
It has been told to me that it’s in the capital plans, when we look at the capital plans we see there which ones are a priority in the communities of Nunavut.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the minister for that response.
In Cambridge Bay the tank farm there is owned by a private company so how would you ensure that their tank farm is up to capacity for the community?
The reason I asked that question is because the hamlet council told me that they felt that the community needed a larger tank farm for the community.
I am just wondering how you interact with the private sector, a private sector that owns the tank farm in terms of ensuring that the community’s future needs are met?
I forgot that Cambridge Bay is slightly different from other Nunavut communities.
It is true Nuna Kit, I believe, privately owns the tank farms there.
We meet with the company and we cooperate with each other.
It is their responsibility to ensure that its capacity there is adequate. We will continue to work with that private company to ensure your needs are met.
Could I ask the minister to ensure or commit that her department is interacting or meeting with the Hamlet Council, they are talking to the private sector to make sure that our needs are met so that I can take that to the mayor and council when I get home.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Peterson. Madam Minister.
That would be possible and I will speak with my staff in the regional office and meet with the municipality and meet with the private company there in dealing with the tank farm.
Chairman: Thank you, Madam Minister. Mr. Peterson.
I thank the Minister for that commitment.
On the same lines of my earlier question about capacity, how does the department determine if a tank farm in a community is up to code compliance? What is involved in that process to ensure that they are complying with your territorial and federal regulations and codes?
Normally they do annual checks and at this present time they are doing a study that will be done in the winter months.
Can the minister tell me if all the Kitikmeot communities’ tank farms are being reviewed to ensure that they are up to capacity and up to code compliance, looking forward to the next five-10-15 years?
The reason I ask that question, Ms. Minister, is the communities are getting larger and I haven’t seen any tank farm work occurring in the Kitikmeot for several years that I am aware of. We’ve seen it elsewhere, but not in the Kitikmeot.
I am wondering if the Minister and her officials have any plans on the books somewhere to replace or upgrade some of the tank farms.
In the upcoming winters, for example in Kugluktuk as it is a growing population their needs are getting greater for 2005-06, $100,000 was set aside and also for Kugaaruk there has been a study done.
They have set aside funds to be utilized for 2005-06; $274 million have been set aside for this reason.
I don’t see that information in this section that the minister referred to.
The kind of dollar figures that I am thinking are probably in the 2-3 million range that would replace an entire tank farm.
That is the kind of figure that I am thinking about in the next five to ten years.
I am wondering if the minister if she can indicate if her department is looking ahead and working with the Kitikmeot communities to ensure that their tank farms are up to capacity and compliance and possibly for upgrades or replacement for the next decade.
I was speaking on the current year 2005-06 on these capital projects.
And there is always monitoring happening and making sure that we comply with the capacity in the communities. It is important to note that which are the priorities and working with the municipalities.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister again.
I’m not clear on what the Minister is saying. She is saying there is on-going work.
I am trying to get an answer if there are any plans to replace any of the tank farms in the Kitikmeot to upgrade or replace the tank farms over the next five to ten years.
I would like to direct the deputy minister to respond to that question.
Within the next five to ten-year framework, there are no identified fuel tank farms in the Kitikmeot Region that are scheduled for complete replacement.
Based on the capacity studies that we have done now, they should be sufficient, certainly in that five-year period, if not longer than that five-year period.
As the minister indicated, we constantly work with the communities on that. We look at the capacity of the tanks, the code issues; we also work at the consumption issues on a regular basis. We combine that with population statistics and growth and population to do projections for five to ten years.
So, right now, with the changes that are being done this current year in Kugluktuk, in Kugaaruk, which are both capacity issues to increase the capacity, it looks like the capacity will be good.
I can say that, obviously, we are dealing with 25 communities in capacity. We have done a large number of capacity work in the last five years and have 14 projects scheduled in the next five years. So, there’s a lot of work being done.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the minister and Mr. Rich.
That’s great information to know. I’m sure the Hamlet Council of Cambridge Bay will look forward to sitting down and talking to your officials.
They are being quite progressive over in Cambridge Bay.
They are planning forward for the next five to 10 to 15 years because they recognize that Cambridge Bay is the administrative centre, there’s tremendous growth in the community, and they have to anticipate all of these growth factors.
Obviously, the tank farm is going to be a key area, not only because of natural growth, but there’s the mining in the area that’s coming and they will probably be taking some of their fuel from our communities.
So, we have their needs and our community needs.
Those are my final comments.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Peterson. (interpretation) We are on page J-17. (interpretation ends) Tangible Assets.
I would like to ask firstly, I didn’t quite hear it…(interpretation ends)…the local fuel delivery contracts, when are they up for tender, Madame Minister?
The contract will be up in two years.
Chairman: Thank you, Madame Minister. Mr. Alagalak.
I think you were talking about the re-supply ships.
What about the local community fuel delivery contractors, are they included there?
I need clarification on that part.
A number of those are long-term contracts for five or ten years and they go on a different basis in different communities, so it depends, a little bit, on the community that you are talking about when the local delivery contract might be up for tender again.
Another question I have, I told the minister that after we ran out of fuel that I don’t see any funding available to enlarge the fuel tanks, maybe they were not completely full. Can the minister tell me if we are going to get more fuel in Arviat than last year?
Hon. Levinia Brown (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) Based on the deliveries this summer the inventory level on hand in Arviat and the diesel should be sufficient until 2006 re-supply arrival in mid July 2006.
Arviat does not have fuel tank capacity problems.
The problem this past summer related to an estimate in PC fuel needs we received that turned out be low. We had also plans to top up the supply in Arviat and Rankin at the end of 2004 re-supply season as a precaution.
However the port at Churchill closed in the 2004 season earlier than anticipated and no further fuel delivery was possible.
A review of the existing fuel inventory prior to the first ship of the 2005 season indicated to be expected low levels in Arviat and the tanker was scheduled to make a drop of a 100 thousand litres of diesel to sustain the community until the scheduled re-supply dates. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Alagalak (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman and I would like to thank the Minister for that answer. But what she was talking about there was a slight misunderstanding in regard to the Churchill port.
Maybe because they were not informing each other properly that they didn’t put in enough and I was bringing this up in the House.
Can the Minister give me a clear indication that we will not run out of fuel this winter or this spring since there will be adequate fuel there?
As the Minister indicated the shortfall this year was due to the fact the estimate that we received from Nunavut Power Corporation was unfortunately too low for the amount of fuel they required.
Both Petroleum Products Division and Nunavut Power Corporation have worked closely together correct that.
We increased the amount of diesel fuel that was ordered quite substantially this summer. And based on the usage in Arviat and also Nunavut Power Corporation usage there should be no problems with fuel in the community until the re-supply next summer.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Rich. Mr. Alagalak.
You said fuel ordered to be delivered to Arviat I assume that the fuel ordered was delivered prior to the fall of 2005.
Yes, as a matter of fact I am pleased to say with the result of the three re-fuels to Arviat this summer a total of almost 5 million litres of diesel fuel was delivered and a total of a little over 800 thousand litres of gasoline was delivered, which are good reflections of the quantities that were ordered.
Mr. Alagalak: Thank you, Mr. Rich.
I am hoping that there won’t be bad gas in Arviat with the 100 thousand litres.
I wonder if the minister could, if she can’t answer the question now, assure me to write me a report of the capacity of the fuel tanks that we have, including tanks in Arviat.
Hon. Levinia Brown: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we can provide that.
I know over the last number of years since the fuel delivery system changed, and we have a new supplier, I know that there has been a tremendous increase in spills.
I am just wondering why, if that is one of the reasons, we have this money in here for spill response equipment. I know the minister indicated earlier, or the deputy, I can’t remember which one, that the contract was renewed because the contractor fulfilled some of these requirements that had been pointed out that have been deficiencies in the past.
Would there have been any spills this year?
I’m pleased to say that no, there were no spills this year.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So I guess the fuel that they were short of in Arviat wasn’t the fuel that got spilt in Coral Harbour.
One of the other things that I have concerns about, I asked a question as far as what was ordered, and what was delivered, and I know that last year I know here, for example, and there was a number of communities that didn’t get what they ordered.
I hear, I think, it was over half a million litres of Avgas that they were ordering, it was 800,000 litres that they were shorted, that led to some additional costs to the company here that distributes fuel.
At the time the contactor told the local cartage company that handles the storing and distribution of the fuel, that was some kind of a draft problem with the vessel that they had, but since indicated then that it actually wasn’t that, that the fuel actually went somewhere else.
I am just wondering if the minister or her staff were aware of that?
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Tootoo. Ms. Minister.
Hon. Levinia Brown: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I will ask the deputy minister to clarify that.
There’s always a bit of variation from year to year because the ships carry fuel for multiple communities, and everything from the amount of capacity that is available in the tank to how much has been off loaded in a previous community, affects small variations in the amount of fuel.
The member is correct. There was a lower than desired last fuel shipment into Iqaluit last year, a year ago.
That resulted from the late arrival of the ship. There were a number of problems last year with the shipping season. There were, in particular, some ice problems that were encountered several times, Coral Harbour, for instance, twice and others, which delayed the shipments into Iqaluit.
So the last shipload was, in fact, quite late in November, and the ice had started to form in November, and as a result of that the Coast Guard requested that the ship not be filled to full capacity.
That is probably the capacity issue that you were referring to, and as a result of that, it came in with less capacity than we would have liked to have it come in.
It was still sufficient; it was roughly the same as the previous year’s order.
It was still sufficient to last a year by our estimates and in fact it is true in fact it has lasted a year.
We are delighted to say that we’ve been getting good capacity this year in them so I don’t think we will see that same instance happening again.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wish to bring to your attention we don’t have a quorum.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Peterson. We will ring the bell.
The deputy indicated that it was the Coast Guard that asked the company not to fill up as usual but I thought the vessels that they use are supposed to be ice class vessels so it shouldn’t matter whether there was ice or not.
I know and I’ll go back to the First Assembly when this whole issue of this contract and the dealings and the questions the members had at the time.
We were assured that the type of vessel wouldn’t have a problem at all making the deliveries would be the same or better than what was being used by the previous contractor.
Now we hear maybe it was the kind of boat it was, not to fill it up.
Maybe if I can get a little bit of an explanation as to why they would be asked not to bring in what they are supposed to bring in.
I think they are ice class and also there is a mixture of conditions that impact the shipping.
Chairman: Thank you, Madame Minister. Mr. Tootoo.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess it goes back to something that I said and keep going back as I said a few years ago that you get what you pay for. The government is saying they are saving millions of dollars on this and I don’t believe it is totally accurate when you compare the apples and apples and not apples and oranges.
But you get what you pay for paying less and we had considerable amounts of spills, shortage problems.
I know the deputy indicated earlier they were short 800,000 litres of I think it was of Jet A last year. He is correct in saying that they didn’t run out.
Does he know how close they came to running out?
One day longer and they would have run out of jet fuel.
In order not to run out to make it to that one day before the ship they had to pump out the big tanks of the sludge of stuff at the bottom.
Get it recertified and use that until they got this year’s shipment arrived.
Even though it was the same as last year we all know that the demands in all of our communities are growing.
And they need more. The air traffic and I think this is one of the busiest airports in North America.
If we can’t count on the supplier to provide what we have asked for and put us that close to some real problems then I really the question their ability to fulfill, I mean does that, by doing that, does that, have they fulfilled their end of the contract?
So I really think that they went ahead and reviewed, renewed it for another two years, but these kinds of considerations should be taken into account because you could have a medevac sitting here that couldn’t leave because there was no fuel.
Someone could have died.
You could have had the scheduled airlines not being able to go anywhere because we didn’t have any jet fuel.
I really urge them to look at this a lot more closely with the supplier, because it scared me when I heard that; how close we actually came to running out.
I really hope that is something that they’ll take to heart and look at them when it comes to renewing the contract.
I know here, they ran out in Arviat, other communities. I think the minister or the deputy indicated that they had to fly in fuel into a whole bunch of different communities.
Pangnirtung had to get fuel flown in.
I guess the question to ask is: how much money has the government’s department spent in flying fuel around the territory, and from where to where? Maybe I can ask that question and get some kind of response.
Yes, the member is raising a very big concern.
We’re trying very hard to work with the suppliers and to look at all areas to ensure that we have adequate fuel for the year.
Our usage of fuel is going up every year.
Only up to one community this spring, which was to Repulse, I think that’s a pretty good record. However, we will do our best.
It’s hard to tell from year to year where it’s going to go low and which communities will be adequate.
I guess in the last year then, the minister is saying that it’s only one community that they had to fly fuel into?
Sometimes I’m accused of being a stickler on what I hear for words.
Earlier when the deputy was responding to my colleague’s question from Arviat, he had indicated, I think there were five million litres of diesel delivered, and 800,000 litres of gasoline delivered.
He said that was a good reflection of what was ordered. If it was just a reflection of what was ordered, what was actually ordered?
Or, was it more or less than what was ordered?
Hon. Levinia Brown: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will now ask the deputy minister to respond to that. Thank you.
My understanding is they got what they were ordered. I don’t have the specific information on the completed order with me here. I don’t have the information on the specific orders here.
But, my understanding is they did get what they ordered.
Chairman (interpretation): We’re on page J-17.
I want to ask two other questions on this issue in regard to that one fuel delivery contract.
I think it has been approximately three years since that contract was awarded to Woodwards and the government has stated that there’s a major costs savings in dealing with them.
I think it was three years ago that the contract was awarded.
Was Woodwards the lowest bidder, or was this sole sourced? That’s my question. I would like the deputy minister to explain if Woodwards was the lowest bidder.
Yes, they were the lowest bidder.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): Thank you. There was a clause that had an option to renew; I believe it’s going to be next year. Are you going to be tendering out, using the tendering process, when it expires?
Yes, when the extension expires, the intention would be to re-tender the contract.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): Mr. Chairman, my next question was brought up earlier by the Member from Cambridge Bay.
The information was given to us in the fall in regard to the petroleum products and the evolving regulations for fuel and storage. Exactly what regulations are they? Are they in regard to the environment, or spillage, or to the tank farms?
Exactly what regulations are these? Are they federal or environmental? I think that it would be best if you explained all of this to the Assembly.
I think it’s for capacity alone. I would like an explanation on that.
Mr. Rich. (interpretation ends) Madame Minister.
Yes, those are very good points that the member is raising.
It’s for the environmental reasons and those are proposed federal regulations.
I truly believe that they are related to the environment, but they are actually federal enforcement rules. Is that what we are trying to comply with the, it was never really all that clear during your presentation, what are you trying to comply with?
Perhaps the deputy could add to that.
I am sorry if I confused things, and you are quite right, I did use two terms together; code compliance and regulation and that’s the term that we tend to use for shorthand. There is a capacity issue, you are also quite right.
So, when we are doing our checks with tanks, we are looking at capacity issues, just the volume, of whether there’s sufficient capacity for the consumption of the community.
The code compliance regulations have to do with the Environmental Protection Acts.
Those are federal regulations. The Federal Government, about three years ago, served notice that it was going to increase or make stricter the regulations on fuel tanks. That applied to federal lands, the territories and First Nation reserves in the south and DND facilities in the south.
And, that’s what we’ve been working on with the Federal Government to see how those will apply here.
Those have not yet come into affect. It’s still uncertain when they may come into affect. And, we’ve been working with Qulliq Energy Corporation and others to look at the impact that those would have on the fuel tanks in Nunavut.
My last question has to do with, just mainly for the record, exactly what the status is of the original plan of Community and Government Services, to transfer petroleum products to Qulliq Energy Corporation?
Could I ask the deputy minister to respond to that please?
I guess the short answer is that’s off the table. That is no longer under consideration.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Rich. Mr. Curley.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): I would like to thank the minister.
I believe there will be considerable savings for the government.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Curley. At this time I have no other names on my list.
We’re on page J-17.
(interpretation ends) Tangible Assets. Headquarters Region.
Total Headquarters Region. $107.
Chairman: Thank you. Qikiqtaaluk Region.
Total Qikiqtaaluk Region. $1,720,000.
Chairman: Going onto J-18. Tangible Assets. Kivalliq Region.
Mr. Mapsalak (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question was already brought up earlier, but it wasn’t directed to Repulse Bay.
For the last two years, we have run out of fuel and we had to have fuel flown in.
That’s been happening for the last two years.
My question is if this year we will not run out? We’ve been getting a lot of boats coming into Repulse Bay and they use quite a large amount of fuel.
I’m sure that this is one of the contributing factors to us running out of fuel. If you would respond to that, my question is: is there going to be enough fuel to last for the whole season, or for the full year?
I agree with you. A lot of people do go to Repulse Bay and I’m sure that was the case this summer, especially during the bowhead hunt.
I’m sure that they consumed quite a large amount of fuel.
I think it’s going to be better this year as the size of the tanks was increased and that was just completed this summer.
They’re going to be able to have a larger capacity, and there is going to be approximately 150,000 litres, so there has been a 50 percent increase.
We’re hopeful that there will be enough fuel available to that community.
Mr. Mapsalak (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much for your explanation.
Well this is not exactly a question but it is for information. We had heard that there was large problem this summer.
We had to fly in a pump and I am not sure what the problem was but we had to get a replacement pump there.
The hamlet on more than one occasion tried to tell the contractor about the problem and they talked to Rankin Inlet but nobody listened.
We had a problem where, if you are trying to fuel one drum and it would take approximately 50 minutes to fill that drum.
There were individuals that were going to be going out hunting and they had to get their gasoline two days ahead or two days before they left. If I wanted to leave tomorrow I would have to get my fuel two days ahead, in advance.