EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
I thought I had understood that there was an upcoming review of social assistance under income support payments. However, I have a question with respect to the Makimaniq Committee referred to and included in this initiative.
What I really have a concern about is why we aren’t amending the income support legislation so as to bar certain purchases, such as alcohol.
Have these types of initiatives been discussed? Are there legal barriers that may cause problems and what could constitute barriers when trying to make legislative amendments to bar these types of purchases?
With respect to the member’s question, it is clear that the abuse of income support assistance funds for purchasing alcohol and other matters does happen.
We would have to work with the lawyers to see how we could deal with the legal barriers.
The Department of Justice would have to be included in the deliberations to amend the legislation as this is related to the basic human rights of individuals and we cannot infringe on those rights. In order to do that, we would have to collaborate on the best avenue to resolve these issues related to income support payments as well as the lawyers.
This is not an easy matter, but we can try to resolve these issues via debate as needed.
When you finish responding, please let us know so that we don’t have to wait incessantly while the clock is running.
Yes, I understand that. Nonetheless, I believe it is possible to ban alcohol, especially on the form the recipients have to sign, by including a section that these funds cannot be used for alcohol and that penalties would apply if they are used for that purpose.
Some of the issues I have contemplated over the years include why these assistance payments have to be disbursed all in cash for social assistance, albeit I can understand how rental payments can be paid. (interpretation ends) I think that’s good. (interpretation) It is acceptable to have these types of third party payments.
When the rental payments are taken out from the amount, I suppose the rest are for fuel, electrical, and other household expenses.
The social assistance recipient can cash the cheque and once the cash is in their hands, they have total discretion over this amount.
That is also a good question and I thank my colleague for raising the matter.
The first subject he referred to with respect to the form is an idea we can consider.
This is something that can be looked at.
Most recipients don’t immediately cash all of their social assistance payments, but they put it towards one of the retail outlets of their choice, whether it is at NorthMart or another place.
With regard to the idea of trying to improve the system, that is something we can look at.
And if any members have any further ideas or suggestions to put forward for consideration, we are entirely open to them.
I want clarification on the comment about certain people who don’t cash their entire assistance cheque. How is that set up? When the payment is made towards the Northern or Co-op with their cheque when they go to buy their foodstuffs, how is this exactly done?
What is the limit or amount they can then cash or is that dependent on the amount of their assistance cheque? Is there some type of arrangement with the stores that is then reported back to the agency?
Hon. Eva Aariak (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Chairman.
I’ll have Ms Teiman respond.
In Nunavut, a majority of the cheques that are written for social assistance recipients for their food allowances and clothing are made payable to the supplier of the client’s choice.
In the olden days, we used to be able to write on the cheques, “food only,” so that that’s all individuals could spend their money on. Now with the link cards and debit cards, clients now can put their cheques right in the link card, and then there’s no control over the spending of what they can use it for.
So with modern-day technology, it’s kind of taken that control out of our hands.
I thank her for that detailed answer.
It helps me to understand that the current legislation is outdated and requires revision and amendment.
Another thing that is quite obvious is that some people are dependent on social assistance and many residents use the Income Support Program to supplement their nutritional needs, primarily for food purchases.
The other matter I occasionally mull over is why the government doesn’t use coupons for food purchases under this program, which would be reimbursed to the stores.
Perhaps it wouldn’t be quite 100 percent of the total amount, but at least if we could earmark a certain amount of the cheque towards the food coupons given to the recipient that qualifies.
That way, you cannot sell your coupons or trade them.
The reason why I mention this is because if they had food coupons and, for example, if I wanted to donate to the needy, I would prefer that I buy coupons instead of cash.
So where could we purchase these types of coupons?
Down in the southern climes, it would be possible because you can buy food stamps or donate to the food bank.
So if we are to combat poverty without offering more problems, then we should look at donating to an organization or charity. It would be much easier to provide food coupons. This would make it easier for a body, company, or individuals to donate to these causes.
If coupons were available that could only be used for purchasing food, then more people would be willing to donate. This would allow the hungry to benefit from the donations of the public.
Has this idea ever been contemplated to see if it could work here?
The member makes a good statement and it’s an idea that we can take into consideration.
This is another area that we can look at with respect to having paper purchasing options, such as coupons, that are specifically geared towards food or items listed on paper.
This is something we can research. Additionally, this illustrates the principle of self-sufficiency and of having control of one’s life, as well as leading a healthy lifestyle and having a good community. This would be part of giving back control to the individuals to become more self-reliant and to stand alone.
If I were to say it in English, it’s (interpretation ends) self-reliance. (interpretation) This means to lead one’s life without assistance from others so that you can grow your capacity and ability to live your own life and to try to strengthen your ability to make proper choices.
However, this is a very good suggestion and we have taken note of the idea for future reference.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): Mr. Chairman, it’s very observable that this system requires revisions. If residents want to abuse the system, it’s currently too easy to do so. Due to this reason, we really have to redesign the system.
As I have stated in the past, a good analogy is: since I go shopping at Canadian Tire quite a bit and men tend to like looking at their products, depending on the amount of goods one purchases, the store includes Canadian Tire coupons as part of your change.
If you were to gather all the coupons, you can actually purchase nice items just with the coupons.
I usually remark that we should perhaps implement that with our local co-ops in the Kivalliq region.
The analogy is that when you are a member, there is no concept of a return, but at Canadian Tire, you can use your coupons to purchase goods.
In fleshing out the idea of coupons, the suggestion of coupons should be included for food and clothing purchases. This would cut down on the abuses that occur currently within the system, and the children who are hungry or need clothing would benefit with these coupons.
With that, I will just thank the minister for listening to the ideas I have, and this is now just a comment and not a question.
Thank you and that is all.
Let me request clarification and direction from you first before I ask my questions.
The line of questioning I raised last Friday with respect to student financial assistance and whether they would be eligible for income support assistance is a question I would like to raise if it is in line with the item we are reviewing now.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to know if you will allow me to raise these questions in this area.
We’re on page G-12. Income Support.
If you have any questions on this page, please proceed. Mr. Enook.
I just want to raise this question. Are students attending classes who have been approved for FANS funding eligible to apply for income support while they are awaiting their FANS funding? Can they apply for income support?
The students can apply for assistance. Once they apply, however, the income support worker would canvass their situation and assess where and how they can be provided with assistance.
I’m not trying to say that they will get assistance immediately.
However, like all residents of Nunavut, they can apply for social assistance where the worker would research their situation to determine their eligibility.
If they qualify, then they would receive income support assistance.
Do I understand that any student who will be taking courses at Nunavut Arctic College, during the interim between the approval of their FANS funding and the disbursement of these funds, can apply for social assistance while waiting for their funding? Further, if that student is eligible and qualifies, then they can be provided assistance.
Is this exactly as I understand this?
I’ll have Ms. Teiman explain further.
Chairman: Ms. Teiman.
If a student is receiving FANS or if they have been approved for FANS and their payment has not been forthcoming, they can present it to the income support office and have an assessment completed. If FANS goes back and pays them retroactively through the first of the month, then we would put an overpayment on the file and collect that funding back. But, yes, they can be assessed and in most cases, would be assisted.
I wanted to be sure I totally understood it so that the students attending Arctic College will also be clear about the matter.
If the student has applied for income support, can the income support worker in the community have the right to approve or deny it? Is it just like what was stated last Friday that Ms. Teiman has the final say of approving applications?
That’s the understanding I got when I was questioning. I would like to get a response on that.
I’ll give that question to Ms. Teiman.
If a student who is accessing FANS comes into the income support office, they can be assessed right in the community and, depending on the outcome of that assessment, the income support worker would issue a cheque or not.
It depends on all the income that is factored into the assessment.
If there is a situation where the income of the student is more than what our social assistance regulations allow, then there always is that right to appeal. The right to appeal would go to the regional supervisor and then on to the regional director.
There are very few cases that students have to contact me directly for those types of approvals.
The question I wish to ask is one I would like to be the last.
Mr. Chairman, my previous question was one that I thought was quite simple to answer. I thought that it would be a simple thing to answer, but perhaps we make it more confusing by trying to elucidate.
I certainly hope this will be my last question so that I will be clear on the response I receive.
When a student goes to the income support worker to apply for social assistance or to submit their request for assistance, can the local income worker approve or deny this request without having to get other approvals?
Mr. Ningark (interpretation): Was that for me?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am also grateful that I am back in familiar surroundings attending to the session as I missed the last session.
The issue on page G-12, Income Support, where it is written in English, (interpretation ends) productive choices, (interpretation) it is written respecting an individual’s right to choose, of their ability to make choices.
Some of the choices include local community healing, education, training, on-the-job training, earning wages during nine-to-five while taking training courses.
This is completely understandable and good to hear.
Mr. Chairman, however, with respect to our larger communities, it is possible to receive these services as they are accessible programs in their communities.
Larger centres tend to have more facilities, such as healing centres, larger high schools and adult education centres, and there are more job opportunities.
However, to cite the example of Repulse Bay and Kugaaruk, due to their small size, they don’t have the same opportunities or resources available within the communities.
Some youth and adults want to apply for income support, but they feel trepidation to go and apply as they know they will be asked, “Have you looked for employment or training opportunities within the community?”
They also get asked about contacting people within the community to increase their capacity or to plan for their future.
However, there is nothing available for them.
Only the larger centres have these types of services available. Indeed, this surfaced as a result. With respect to the land-based activities, we can offer that in the smaller communities.
My colleague, Mr. Curley, spoke to the idea of the entire system being revised and renewed. As part of the review we are undertaking, this is what we see.
I, too, believe the system needs to be revised and to try to adapt it so that it fits better with the smaller communities that lack resources.
Here I am talking about communities that don’t have healing centres, larger schools, or job opportunities since most jobs are already filled in the smaller communities and unavailable for people looking for employment.
It can be a long while before any job opens up. If I were to say it in English, the turnover rate is very low.
Mr. Chairman, with respect to the smaller communities, perhaps the land-based programs can be better utilized or initiated.
This teacher, who would be the outfitter and guide, would have to be a competent hunter, knowledgeable about the environment and building snow houses, able to fish and hunt caribou, and could earn a decent wage while teaching youth.
I believe we need to create these programs. I imagine the minister is aware of these programs.
Smaller communities lack job opportunities and advanced post-secondary courses, and that is the situation.
Mr. Chairman, I believe it is time we started thinking of servicing our smaller communities that lack the requisite programs under income support.
This should not just be studied, but a comprehensive review should be conducted. Can the minister think about this matter? That is my question.
I also thank our colleague for raising that question.
Indeed, there are many factors we have to take into consideration in the communities regarding services.
Some communities are larger while others are smaller, and many have differing opportunities and service providers.
As an example, in talking about the smaller communities, another idea that could provide opportunities for youth is to try to attend courses in the adult learning centre.
It’s quite clear that some Inuit undertake this route when trying to better their circumstances or in trying to advance their careers. They can also speak to people they trust, including elders, who can provide advice, especially about Inuit social practices.
We have stated in the past that the best option is to include the local experts when dealing with life skills and traditional knowledge. These people can also attend to courses when requested to speak about these issues.
There are various options we can look at with respect to smaller communities that suffer from the lack of services, programs, and facilities.
There are different options we can consider when reviewing this issue.
People can try to go through their adult learning centres for furthering their education. Additionally, if they can incorporate local resources, including elders knowledgeable about life skills and advice provision, these also help people as well.
I also thank Madam Minister for that.
If people living in the smaller communities want to be self-sufficient without employment while providing for their family or if they want to improve, they have to take courses or healing while looking for a job. The person would have to leave their community.
An example would be to go from Kugaaruk to Cambridge Bay to take advantage of the services available pertaining to self-improvement or furthering one’s education. Another example would be someone from Kugaaruk going to Rankin Inlet or alternatively, from Kugaaruk to Iqaluit or Yellowknife. That is the only option available to them, which is why people feel apprehensive about applying for income support assistance.
Youth don’t want to be questioned, as they will hear the usual rant, “Are you looking for means to improve your life situation? Are you looking for something that can benefit your community? Are you looking to improve your life?”
Most people are open to doing that. However, the biggest barrier is that there are no opportunities or services, such as healing programs, available in their communities.
The high schools as well as the adult learning centres are there, but most classes are already filled with other students. The opportunities to get pre-employment training or career training courses are only available in the larger centres.
So when the question is asked, “Are you looking for employment?”
The usual reply is, “No, all of the available jobs at the Co-op are filled.”
As per my colleague’s suggestion about Canadian Tire coupons, that would help. However, every year in our community, our co-op in Kugaaruk disburses approximately $2,000 in co-op dividends per individual. All employment opportunities at our co-op are already filled.
Health centres, schools, and other government facilities have no openings for jobs. All employment opportunities are non-existent. In English, we have no opportunities.
I would urge the minister and her officials to look at the communities’ situations and to adapt the prerequisite requirements so that more land-based programs using Inuit traditional knowledge can be available for our people.
I hope the department introduces these types of programs that incorporate Inuit traditional knowledge. Inuit traditional knowledge is absolutely tailored to our needs and close to our hearts as Inuit.
Inuit start to realize how capable we are, especially in winter during the shortened days with extremely cold temperatures.
To collude with previous statements by my colleagues and to add to the statements with respect to the social assistance funding we provide for income support assistance, we are all aware that abuse occurs where some recipients purchasing alcohol and drugs with their assistance cheques.
Additionally, I believe that we are aware that certain communities with set disbursement dates attract the wrong crowd, with the income support day figuring prominently. I believe that the local bodies are also holding bingos on that date to take advantage of the set dates.
This is in line with what Mr. Curley was referring to earlier. We have to brainstorm on this issue.
The minister should be canvassing for ideas to resolve the problems we experience in Nunavut with the Income Support Program. This program doesn’t just benefit the parents, but it is particularly intended to provide nutrition to their children. So I urge and hope the minister will consider these ideas carefully and to research all related matters.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Ningark. I didn’t hear a question, but I’ll give you the opportunity to respond, Minister Aariak.
Hon. Eva Aariak (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank Member Ningark for providing us great suggestions that could help. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Aariak. Mr. Ningark, are you done with your questions?
Mr. Ningark (interpretation): As a territorial government, I believe that we have to acknowledge the hamlets’ role in representing their residents. We have to cooperate with the municipal governments to resolve problems that they face. With collaboration, we can solve many of the issues that cause problems within the communities.
I just wanted to relay that to the minister as a comment.
Only by working with the local hamlets can this government deal with these issues, especially when talking about the challenges smaller communities face. If we don’t work with the municipalities, then their situation will never change. The hamlets are our partners in managing our territory, so we have to ensure that we treat them as valuable partners.
This is just a comment, not a question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Ningark. Mr. Aupaluktuq.
Very briefly, because of past and repeated abuse of income support, as well as the sensitive nature as to how, when, and where income support is used, I wanted to ask for the record, Mr. Chairman: can or where can a recipient submit an appeal of whom or where a cheque is issued to as income support?
I’ll have Ms. Teiman reply to that question.
Ms. Teiman: Where an income support cheque is delivered should not require an appeal, it should just be a matter of the client or the recipient having a chat with the income support worker. If the cheque, for instance, is going to the Northern Store and they wanted it to go to the Co-op, it should be that easy, unless there’s some other cheque that you’re referring to.
There are a lot of people on income support for various reasons and many don’t want to be on income support. You have pretty much answered my questions in a sense of where a person can appeal, but there have been people who have shared a sense of feeling like they’re under a one-cure-for-all approach.
So some constituents have asked how and where they can request an appeal, even though they maybe had approached their income support worker with some certain issues and were just told that it was a practice that’s very common.
So hopefully I think that can clarify some of the issues that I tried to raise in terms of asking where or can a person provide an appeal.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Aupaluktuq. Minister Aariak.
Hon. Eva Aariak (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) Social assistance appeals go to either the local appeals committee or to administrative review groups. The second step is, when necessary, they can go to the appeals board.
I hope that’s the kind of [answer] that he was seeking.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you. Minister Aariak.
We’re on page G-12.
Education. $2,974,000.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you. Go back to G-3.
Education. 2012-13 main estimates. $232,895,000.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you. Does the committee agree that the Department of Education is concluded?
Madam Minister, I thank you and your officials. If you have any closing remarks, you have the opportunity.
First and foremost, I wish to thank my dedicated officials who were witnesses during this review.
I thank them as I am aware of the tremendous hard work they undertake to fulfill their duties, not just the officials who were present but also the many employees who form the education department.
In particular, I thank my colleagues, the elected representatives who have posed tough questions and provided excellent suggestions for our consideration. You have represented the wishes of your constituents to find out about certain items by asking questions related to these areas.
Another aspect I thoroughly enjoyed was that the members were able to convey ideas to resolve the problems they asked questions about. Some members provided really good suggestions for our consideration to resolve the problems we face today.
I thank each and every one of you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Aariak. I thank your officials, Ms. Teiman and Ms. Fanjoy Thank you.
Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses and minister out.
I would like them out of the way. I’m just kidding.
Thank you all. Members, as you are aware, we are in Committee of the Whole.
At this time, we will be taking a five-minute break as we need to change the Chair at this end.
Please be back within five minutes.
>>Committee recessed at 17:24 and resumed at 17:36