EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
I am told in cases that it is usually the president and the CFO, one, or the other, or both sign off on those types of contracts.
Mr. Okalik: So in this case, it would be Mr. Scott.
As he was the president at the time, I would assume that would be correct.
Mr. Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) I recall that, Mr. Chairman, you asked the minister a while back if Mr. Scott was, in any way, affiliated with Illamar Marshalling. I would like to know if the minister has looked into that and what his findings are. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As I indicated, that was something that we did check into a while ago and there was no connection. Again I informed him that it was something that was just checked again last month and there was still nothing.
In looking at the various contracts that the Housing Corporation has entered into, whether it be marshalling, panelling, and the latest one was an association in Merrickville, there were three contracts that were in the vicinity of Morrisburg, Merrickville, and Brockville and it’s all very close to each other.
I would like to know if these companies that are contracted with the Housing Corporation are connected with each other because they’re so close to each other and they provide telehandlers, marshalling, and panelling is the latest one.
Are these companies affiliated with each other in some way?
To our knowledge, there is no connection with these companies.
If the member could point out specifically what contracts, we can look into them again, but it is our understanding that there is no connection.
I believe the marshalling is at Morrisburg. The panelling is around Ottawa. I don’t know the exact location, but I’m sure the Housing Corporation knows who they are contracting with.
The other one was the farming equipment, which was right in the vicinity of Morrisburg.
Is there some sort of coincidence that a little territory far north is contracting very heavily within a 15-minute driving area?
So I was starting to wonder maybe these companies are connected and that’s how we’re contracting with these companies.
That’s what I’m trying to ask about. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
If Mr. Okalik could point to exactly what contract he is talking about here and what page it’s on this document, then I would be more than happy to pull out the information on it. It would help me if I knew which one exactly or where it was on here in our response that he is referring to.
Mr. Okalik: I don’t have all of the pages with me at the moment.
That’s what I know is those three contracts are right in the vicinity of one another. That’s why I’m asking if there is some sort of connection with each of these companies. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I was informed that to our knowledge, the Illamar contract is the only one that is in these documents.
The other contracts will be in next year’s documents that will be put forward.
I again would like to indicate that as far as we know, there is no connection there.
I think the panelling one he said is in Ottawa. It’s about an hour away from where Illamar is. It’s all in the Ontario area.
As far as we know, there is no connection.
Mr. Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) The minister also answered a question on the sole source contract for $700,000 plus for insulation somewhere in Ontario. Could the minister explain where in Ontario this sole source contract was awarded to?
I don’t have the detail of the exact location of that manufacturer, Roxul Insulation, but I can find out and provide it to the member.
Mr. Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) I look forward to getting that response.
I’m sure my colleagues would like to learn of that as well, especially you, Mr. Chairman.
We have noticed in the past that some past employees were working quite heavily with contracting and contracting companies that we have learned of.
Is there a policy that you plan to introduce to prevent this from taking place in the future, like a cooling off period for current and future employees, so that we have a more open and transparent process in the future?
Page 7 of the response says that the corporation adheres to the conflict of interest and hiring policies of the Government of Nunavut, the Human Resources Manual, the Public Service Act, the Public Service Regulations, the management handbook, the excluded employees’ handbook, the Nunavut Employees Union Collective Agreement, and Administrative Processes Manual for those purposes.
Chairman: Thank you, Hunter Tootoo.
I caught myself on that one. Mr. Okalik.
Mr. Okalik (interpretation): Thank you. (interpretation ends) I’ll just go with this some more. I’m sure my colleagues have more questions. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I’ll just follow up on Mr. Rumbolt’s question.
I just need to get some clarification on that. Mr. Rumbolt was concerned that it is about $125,000 higher in the Kivalliq than it is in the Baffin. In past experience, the Baffin is usually higher in all of the prices and everything because it’s so far away from southern contractors or suppliers.
The minister or president couldn’t answer it with some examples. Will the minister provide some examples at to why the Kivalliq, on average, was about $125,000 higher than the usually expensive service of the Baffin region?
I think, as Mr. Barriault pointed out, there are a number of factors and one of the factors was the type of contracting practice that was used, I guess, if that’s what you call it, whether it would be public tendered or negotiated contracts.
My understanding is for the Kivalliq region, most of it was put out to public tender, whereas in the Baffin, there were negotiated contracts and LHO delivery as well.
Mr. Elliott: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m just following up on one of the questions.
If I heard the minister correctly, he said they follow all of the different procedures in the Human Resources Manual in terms of hiring people after they have worked for the Nunavut Housing Corporation and then are being rehired back as consultants. Did I hear him correctly when he said that?
Yes, that is what is indicated on page 7 in the response to question 6.
Again I’ll have to leave it up to the discretion of the Chairman for the answer for this. I had recently heard one of the financial people who were involved in the financial management of the Nunavut Housing Trust actually has just left Arviat in April and was doing an audit of the Nunavut Housing Corporation headquarters there. Can the minister confirm that or not?
I will just clarify that that individual was not doing the audit; he was working with the Auditor General.
I will ask Mr. Barriault to further explain that.
Mr. Barriault: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
The individual in question was providing some assistance towards doing some of the year-end audit working papers.
So he was assisting the OAG in dealing with some of the various accounts and the different funding sources that the Housing Corporation is involved in.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Barriault.
Mr. Elliott: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank you for that answer.
Just before we went off on break, I was asking questions. We’re on 2007-08 and then you were telling us about 2008-09 and 2009-2010.
In terms of we are being guaranteed by your department that we will not have cost overruns and whatnot, but if you don’t have the information now, how can you guarantee us that it is not going to be over budget again?
I am not sure, over budget on what? Can I just get some clarification there?
Mr. Elliott, basically, we are dealing with whatever is in this tabled document.
We can’t speculate what is happening in the next two years here because apparently, we don’t have that information.
It is a contract on page 12.
Mr. Schell asked the question about the $255,000 for a contract to Morrisburg Building Centre.
If I heard your answer correctly, you had said that it was for materials that were missed on the boat.
To our knowledge, that is what we have been able to ascertain that that is what that was for.
I am assuming it was sole sourced because it had to be purchased quickly.
Is that for building materials that were then flown up to get to the communities so that they could build them in that construction year?
The reason I am asking that is because if they missed the boat, then there was no rush on getting the materials purchased. So if you could give us a little bit more detail on what materials they were.
The level of detail that we have on these and the way they are entered into the system, it is just showing that it is the Housing Trust resupply for materials.
It is all materials and I understand that some of the stuff did have to be flown up to facilitate the start of construction that season.
Is it possible if the minister could commit to providing us with that level of detail?
We’ve got 98 percent of the contracts being awarded on a sole source contract basis and we are being told again by other departments that sole source is more for emergency and quick… you know, if we had the RFPs, if we had been going through the proper tendering process, maybe we wouldn’t have overspending on projects.
So I’m just wondering if he could provide us with that today or whether he will get it to us later.
I just want to see. I have ten pages of information here and it’s broken down on that contract. Page 1 just indicates the 2007 Nunavut Housing Trust resupply.
The next page is again NHT lumber for five-plexes and wall material, wall material on the next page, and wall material on the next page, the 2007 Nunavut Housing Trust resupply of materials.
Page after page, it’s like that. For the rest of them, it was all just for material resupply for that season.
So again I’m just a little confused.
Is he saying that it was a sole source contract because it missed the boat and it missed the boat because materials weren’t properly marshalled?
As I indicated, to the best of our understanding, that’s exactly what this material was for.
I think if all members will recall, this would have probably been included in the total price tag for that marshalling fiasco, as it was called back then, of the price tag of about eight million dollars.
Mr. Elliott: Just so I don’t have it confused and we’re on the same page, you said the marshalling fiasco.
That fiasco was again this fiscal year of 2007-08 where the material would have been missing the boat. Is that Illamar or was it the other company that was marshalling it?
There are figures for Illamar of a $3 million marshalling bid in that fiscal year. If he could explain that.
No, that wasn’t the Illamar contractor where our stuff missed the boat. That was with the original contract with, I believe, the company’s name was Aarruja.
That’s the contractor that we had ended up taking it away from. The additional fees in there for Illamar are because they took it over partway through that season. So they had to move any of the materials that were at the old marshalling place that could be moved and processed through the Illamar yard.
To fly $255,000 worth of building materials up, do you have the price tag for what that cost in airfreight charges?
I don’t have that information right here with me, but I know that that information has been provided to the House in the past.
So I will commit to looking and digging it out. It’s got to be in there somewhere. I believe that I was actually sitting on that side of the House when that information came across, but that was all part of that $8 million price tag for the marshalling problems that year.
Mr. Elliott: For the contract with Illamar, the $3 million that went through, have there been any similar types of incidences?
This isn’t regarding Nunavut Trust, but in terms of people who have been coming up and sharing information about better ways of marshalling and better ways of sending stuff up, the way things are packaged down at the marshalling yard, some of our contractors, local labourers, and electricians have to climb over plumbing supplies before they go in.
I know they have been trying to get this information to the higher level of people so that they can maybe marshal things better and save time in the community on labour costs in terms of paying an electrician $60 an hour to just sit there and check what inventory they have and then they have to find it.
They have to climb over it and move around and re-sort it.
Have there been any problems with Illamar in terms of the contract, stuff being left behind, and having stuff flown up?
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): Just for clarity, Mr. Elliott just mentioned Nunavut Trust. I thought he was talking about the Nunavut Housing Trust.
There is already a Nunavut Trust under the land claims agreement.
If you could please elaborate on the issue you are talking about, Mr. Chairman.
I am sorry for that confusion. I am talking about the Nunavut Housing Trust, which, in 2007-08, I am assuming Illamar was the marshalling company that was responsible for packaging up all of the products, the lumber and everything for the Nunavut Housing Trust to send it up to Nunavut.
So if the minister could answer that question.
I know in that first year, I believe that there were a number of problems.
Actually, one of the issues as far as going with filling the containers, part of the contract did outline how each of the containers was supposed to be packaged and filled so that when you open the doors, there are stuff you needed to start with that were supposed to be right there. If you notice, I used the words “supposed to be” and that is not always the case.
It is something that was followed up on and there were some improvements made.
However, after still hearing concerns like Mr. Elliott pointed out, the corporation this year is going away from sea cans altogether just to eliminate exactly that problem. Even though on paper and in theory, it is supposed to be packaged in a way that we don’t have to worry about that, but the reality is not always the way it ends up.
In some cases, it does and in some cases, it doesn’t, but this way now we won’t have to worry about it.
So in terms of the contract, you had said that the contract with Illamar is finishing this year.
I am assuming that there will be another public tender that goes out.
If you change the scope of work that the marshalling company is doing going from sea cans to crating, is that incurring extra costs that the Nunavut Housing Corporation has to incur or is it still under the same contract?
Under the current contract that is there right now, there is a set amount in there outlined for crating and there is a set amount for containerized stuff.
So those amounts are already spelled out in the existing contract.
Mr. Elliott: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for that answer. So I guess with the answer you gave me, are we incurring extra costs?
You are saying that there is so much for sea containers and there is so much for crating. We are going away from sea containers and we are only going with crating.
If I understood what you’re saying, that’s what you’re saying.
So there won’t be any sea cans, there will be just crating, and that will be extra costs for the Government of Nunavut through the Nunavut Housing Corporation.
That’s kind of getting off the path there, but I’ll let Minister Tootoo answer it.
I am going to let Mr. Barriault answer this.
He just told me that I’m going to let him explain it because I don’t want to butcher it.
When you look at containerization, most shipping companies will charge you by weight or by volume, whichever will give them the most revenue.
So you do have a break even point, where you need a certain amount of weight in a sea container to equal what you would get charged for volume. So that’s part of the issue with containerization.
The other thing with packaging containers is we may wish to order the material so that the first thing to come out is the first thing we need to use. Oftentimes, they can wind up with an unbalanced load.
When you’re trying move 20-foot and 40-foot containers, they can get tippy, dangerous, and materials can get knocked about.
So that’s another problem that occurs with that and it’s probably part of the reason why these issues of material in random order apparently were coming forward.
Crating, depending on how big the crates are and what you’re containing in them, can be the most cost-effective method of doing business as well. So we have been trying to weigh the costs of crating and also the practical access to the materials when they reach the other side.
In terms of an actual cost comparison between the two methods, I couldn’t give you that off the top of my head, but in terms of value for saving time and making the materials accessible, we’re finding that the crating is definitely much more beneficial to the communities.
Thank you for entertaining that question.
Again, I think my questions are directed to the fact that I’m still not totally sold on the idea that we have the total amount that we’re going to pay for the Nunavut Housing Trust yet. We don’t have the 2008-09 and 2009-2010 contracted documents in front of us, so we don’t have any way of knowing if contracts are going over and expenses are going up.
I’ll let some other members ask questions.
Mr. Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) I found the page where some past employees of the Housing Corporation have become consultants and that’s in page 6 of 7.
In that page, there are at least five past employees who have become consultants for the Housing Corporation. That’s for that one year, so I don’t know how many there may have been this past year or next year.
In that case, can the corporation enter into formal agreements with current employees to have a cooling off period from entering into lucrative contracts after they have left the employ of the Housing Corporation?
The corporation will continue to adhere to the GN policies in that regard.
Mr. Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) If that is the practice, then how come there are five employees who worked as consultants? How was that following the GN requirements for hiring them as consultants after they have been employees?
It is my understanding of the policies that are in place that anyone can be hired back, depending on what they were doing.
The restrictions only kick in for senior level positions within the government. I think this is probably something that is seen not only in the Housing Corporation but other departments as well. It has been pointed out by other ministers during this session.
Mr. Okalik: I think we are learning that this past year or whenever this document was produced, there are five. I don’t know how many there are this past year and this fiscal year.
So if that is the practice, then we would like to know. Is the corporation planning on introducing maybe a test of some sort to ensure that no inside information is used for the benefit of a given company to the detriment of Nunavummiut?
As I indicated earlier, we follow the conflict of interest guidelines and policies of the government when hiring contractors and that is stipulated in there. As far as other contracts go, and I believe that is what the member is getting at, to other companies bidding on Housing Corporation stuff, this disclosure component is going to be built into all of our future contracts.
There will be a requirement for any company to identify any links.
I’ll say that links are not limited to ownership interests, family relations, shareholdings, partnership interests, directorships, associations, consulting agreements, leadership pools, employment and contractual arrangements.
This includes links with companies and organizations which, in turn, have links with current and past Nunavut Housing Corporation employees and consultants and their immediate family.
Any failure to fully disclose any such interest would entitle the corporation to terminate the contract.
So I think that kind of covers everything off there to alleviate the concern that the member is alluding to.
Mr. Okalik: I remain sceptical and I look forward to how this operates.
Mr. Chairman, as shown in some cases where past employees have worked as points of contact for suppliers, they may not be affiliated with a given company that is being awarded a contract, but there is another role that has been provided to them in some capacity that may not be affiliated with the company that gets the contract.
So there are other areas that should be looked at. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As I stated in this House before to yourself and other members who were here listening, if any member has any concerns on any specific issue, I would encourage them to provide me with the information and I would be more than happy to look into it and investigate any situation that anyone may have or bring forward, but I can’t just speculate on things.
If there is something in particular that someone has an issue with, I welcome being informed of that and would look into it as soon as possible.
In regard to contracting, Mr. Chairman, what I am about to ask or say is not unparliamentary, but it’s a fact and there is no other way to put it or sugar-coat it.
I would like to exercise my right of privilege on behalf of my constituents. Some people and staff are afraid to speak out for fear of retribution.
There was a period when the Baker Lake Housing Association was administered under the Hamlet of Baker Lake. Under the circumstances, many constituents feel that they were billed with bogus invoices and fees.
Baker Lake residents would like full transparency and would like to see an audit and/or a forensic audit on the matters, as well as how and who was contracted to do renovations and building of homes. Many feel that there was favouritism and nepotism during this phase.
When community leaders were questioned of the matters at the time by tenants, a lot of the tenants found that they were being billed extra for what they say was asking too many questions. Because of the huge debt, the family lost their home and were unable to make ends meet.
The people of Baker Lake need help in getting our history out in the open and clearing our books. Many feel we, as a community, need to see what’s being swept under the rug, so to speak, that separated the haves and have-nots for a long time.
Chairman: We’re discussing this here, so if you could just get to the point.
Mr. Aupaluktuq: The point, Mr. Chairman, that I was going to say is that the people of Baker Lake need the help of disclosing past contracts in our community as well because it affected our constituents and community. That was just my question, to see whether or not we would be able to get some assistance.
That doesn’t have anything to do with this, but I would ask the member, if he wishes, to write me a letter outlining his concerns and we will look in to see what, if anything, we can do in regard to the situation.
Chairman: I would just like to remind the members that questions have to be on Tabled Document 13 – 3(2). Thank you. Mr. Aupaluktuq.
Mr. Aupaluktuq: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for that clarification.
I just figured that since they were discussing past contracts, those were also concerns in the community.
Thank you for allowing me to clarify that.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Aupaluktuq. There was no question there, I don’t think, it was just a statement.
Mr. Rumbolt: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the return to written question that was provided, there were various areas where the labour was done by the housing associations and there are no dollars put in there, it just says LHO.
I know Mr. Schell brought it up in the House and asked you why it was like that with no dollar values and you said that it was waiting for audited statements from auditors, I do believe.
So my question is: if some of this is going back to three years of contracts, there should be some dollars available for these LHO contracts because I do believe housing associations are audited on an annual basis.
I wonder if the minister can explain that, please.