EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Mr. Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It’s not really in the opening remarks, but I wanted to find out exactly what the money is going to be used for.
We have heard that the housing corporation has bought oil tanks for around 500 million dollars.
Could the minister give us a briefing on exactly what’s happening in that area?
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Okalik. Minister Tootoo.
Hon. Hunter Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wish we had $500 million to buy oil tanks.
That’s what I heard, so I don’t know if I could just get it clarified.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister Tootoo. Mr. Okalik.
Mr. Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) I wish we had $500 million for housing.
I understand there has been some contract awarded for 500 tanks.
I would like to get some more details from the minister. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Hon. Hunter Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Those oil tanks that he’s referring to were ordered last year, so they’re last year’s capital. They were ordered to replace aging tanks in our public housing inventory.
Mr. Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) I think one of the questions is yes, it is last year’s, but how that contract was awarded is of interest because we’re going to set aside more money for contracting.
So I would like to know how that contract was awarded and to whom. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Hon. Hunter Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m pretty sure I answered that last year, but I’ll reiterate again. I was questioned on that in the past; I recall responding to it.
I believe that contract was a sole source contract because there was only one manufacturer that was found at the time to be able to produce the tanks that were spec’d.
Those were special tanks where they were double lined on the bottom half of the tank, so you weren’t getting the cost of having a fully double lined tank. It also had some additional safety features on there.
I did receive some enquiries from other parties that indicated if I could provide them with the specifications that we required on these tanks.
I did that and they have informed us that they have been able to find someone else who would be able to manufacture to that specification.
I had indicated in the past that if we do go out again as a result of being informed of them finding someone else to be able to manufacture to those specifications, we would be going out for public tender.
Mr. Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) So it was sole sourced and where it was sole sourced to, were they affiliated, in some way, as former employees of the housing corporation?
As far as I’m aware, no, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) I asked earlier who the contractors, officers, and suppliers were. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I just have the information for this year’s capital here, but I will be more than happy to go back and look at the stuff that was done last year and provide that information to the member.
Mr. Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) A lot of times, my colleague used to ask, “What happened to this money last year?” And that’s why I’m asking him too.
I will give the benefit to the minister and pass on and look forward to getting further responses to my question on these matters. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Minister Tootoo, if you wish to respond to that.
He’s quite correct; I used to ask lots of questions. But I know in the past, “That’s not dealing with what we’re looking at here today” was the response we used to get all the time too.
I have committed, even though it’s not dealing with what we’re looking at here today, to provide that information to the member.
Mr. Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) I look forward to getting a reply. This information should be readily available. Hopefully before the end of tomorrow, the minister can provide us with that information. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I will provide that information as soon as it is available.
Does that mean tomorrow?
Hon. Hunter Tootoo: If it’s available tomorrow, I’ll get it tomorrow or as soon as possible.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister Tootoo. (interpretation) Is that all, Mr. Okalik?
I wanted to start my questions on page 3 of the opening remarks by the minister.
On June 8 of this year, you informed the Legislative Assembly that this summer, the corporation will be delivering the last of the housing units from the trust, bringing the total up to 750 housing units.
However, in his opening comments, he said that there will be 725. I’m just wondering why there’s a difference in numbers.
I know I was asked this question in standing committee as well. The 725 units are actual units that were constructed. Also, with the housing trust funds, we’re able to acquire units as well in various communities.
That’s where the difference comes from.
So if I understand what the minister is saying correctly, he’s saying that there are going to be 750 units built, 725 units were done, and for the other 25, the materials have been received and delivered and they will be constructed soon.
Is that what he’s saying?
To be clear, by acquired, I meant there were some units that were already in communities that the housing corporation would be able to purchase.
In Kugluktuk, for example, there was a five-plex, I believe, that was purchased out of those funds.
There was a building for sale in the community that we were able to purchase and acquire to use as a public housing unit.
So there are 725 new units being constructed out of the fund and then some of the other ones, we’re dealing with the acquisition of units that, for some reason or another, we were able to obtain.
Some of them might have been turned over to the bank or for whatever reason, we were able to acquire those units and that’s where the difference comes from. Hopefully that clarifies it for the member.
It clarifies it a little bit, but I’m still a little bit confused. So out of the $200 million, 725 units were actually constructed brand-new and then there are going to be 25 quasi-new, new to the Nunavut Housing Corporation, through the acquisition of homeownership. Is that correct?
I just wanted to make sure I got it right for the member.
There are 725 new units constructed out of the trust. There was a combination of acquisitions through third parties and there was a couple, I believe, or some MAP units as well that were funded through the housing trust program.
That’s great. I think I have it clear in my head now, but there is one question that still remains.
You didn’t actually give us a grand total. So there are 725. How many are on top of it in terms of acquisitions and stuff like that?
I believe the grand total was given. No? Pardon me.
Again I don’t have that information with me as the trust isn’t part of the capital budget this year.
If memory serves me correct, I think it was around 754 units in total that were constructed, purchased, or whatever through the housing trust dollars.
I can double-check that number and provide the member with that information if I did make a mistake.
You are not the only one here with a mistake. Pardon me. Mr. Elliott.
I make mistakes all the time. You’ve got to learn to laugh at yourself.
Continuing on with that first sentence on page 3, I’m finding I have to be very careful in how I ask questions to you.
You said that all materials to complete these units have been delivered.
Now, that means they are in the communities now and construction is underway.
With what some of the questions that Mr. Komoartok from Pangnirtung was asking and construction crews going on holidays and moving out of the communities, when will these be finished?
My understanding was that everything would be done by December 31 of this year. So is there going to be carryover into next year?
As I indicated, all the final materials for the trust, the final units, were delivered to the communities on this year’s resupply.
I’m not sure where the December 31 number came from, but I might have said that in the past or it might have been said in the past from the corporation. I don’t recall.
We usually have the following building season it takes to finish the existing units.
I know, in some communities, there have been backlogs as well. We are pushing to get as much of this work done as soon as possible. We’re hoping to have it all completed by next year.
When does the minister think that the Nunavut Housing Trust Delivery Strategy… ?
When will he be able to table some type of a document with the final figures with a breakdown of the number of units and cost per unit?
As the member knows, one of the things that the corporation has done is undertaken a third party to evaluate the delivery of the trust.
Phase 1 has been done, I know phase 2 is being almost complete in its final stages, and phase 3 will cover off that last year. I would imagine that they would have to wait until everything is completed next year before them being able to finish that off because if it’s still a work in progress, you can’t put everything together until it’s all done.
As soon as everything is done, I’m sure that that is something that will be put forward and looked at.
Not only for our purposes and your purposes, but I’m sure we will have to provide that information to our federal partners as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As well, on page 3 down at the bottom, he mentions, “We are finalizing our contract to purchase 141 SIP (structural insulated panel) units...”
I know he mentioned about the $200 million and probably the $100 million is not actually part of what we’re doing with the capital, but he has it in his opening comments and we’re commenting on the opening comments.
So I was just wondering if he could give us an update as to how that has progressed and a little bit more information on those houses and how they’re constructed. Thank you.
Hon. Hunter Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe the actual contract to manufacture those units has just recently been signed.
I know part of the proposal call that was put out there for the successful proponent was to provide a demonstration on how it worked. That happened late this summer down at the marshalling yard in Illamar. Some final design changes were made as a result of that demonstration that have satisfied the technical group within the corporation that all the challenges that are faced will be covered off.
But I know that once that’s done, the contract has now been signed that that company will be starting to manufacture the 141 units under the contract.
If he’s asking, the SIP panels are actually just structural insulated panels where they will have the plywood on the outside, plywood on the inside, and compressed foam insulation in between. Now, when they come up, they’re put together like a puzzle.
I must say that when the demonstration was held down in Illamar this fall, there was participation from contractors throughout the north.
One of the reasons for that is we wanted to be able to have… . They always come up with technology that works great somewhere else, but we wanted to make sure that it would be okay in Nunavut.
So one of the reasons for bringing down or having our technical people and other contactors with northern experience at the demonstration was to be able to identify any issues and challenges they may face with that technology being able to be effective and work well up here in the north.
I’m not a carpenter and not into construction very much, so I just envision these panels coming up and then I have seen, somehow, when things come up on sealift, they’re handled not so gently sometimes. I had the vision of these pieces of houses not fitting together because they were warped or broken or damaged. With your answer, I’m assuming that this has been put into consideration in terms of what we could expect.
It’s the exact same question that was asked of me in standing committee. I went on with a long list of some of the things that were identified by our northern contractors as challenges with regard to shipping and having materials up here. At the end of it, I said, “Why didn’t you just say you guys did a very extensive review and input to make sure that everything was covered?”
I can assure the member that with the input of the northern experience and the contractors and the people who are used to doing construction in the north, a lot of the different things, issues, and recommendations to address that were raised, identified, and dealt with as a result of that.
As I mentioned earlier, the more detailed questions can be asked when we get into the page-by-page [review].
I would like to remind the member that we do have other members who also want to speak to the opening remarks.
I’ll say what I said before and that’s the fact that these were comments made in his opening statement and there is no place, as far as my understanding, to ask these sorts of questions.
My next question is actually… .
It’s nice to see that the target of 60 percent Inuit employment has been met, which is great. We seem to be fighting to try and get employment in the communities and whatnot.
So I’m just curious about the 50 Nunavut employees and I have asked this question before. The 50 apprentices that you have… . Maybe this is not the place to ask.
At some point, I was wondering if the minister could provide a detailed breakdown as to where these apprentices are. Are they at level 1, level 2… ? Are they all carpenters, are they plumbers, or are they electricians?
I don’t know if we have that information. I know we have over 51, I think it’s around 51 or 52 apprentices, at various levels, but their level and that has all been done through the apprenticeship program with the Department of Education.
They would probably be the most appropriate, but I can check with them and if that information is available, I will provide it to the member.
Yes, that would be great. To me, it’s something that I really want to see pushed to make sure that we can get as many trained local people as possible.
In terms of the $100 million project, the funding that’s coming through, I was just wondering: does the Nunavut Housing Corporation have a delivery strategy for building those 285 new houses?
I thank Mr. Elliott for asking that question.
It’s the same strategy we’re using with the housing trust and again, a lot of focus being on the training and apprenticeship at the community level.
We’re still trying to achieve the target across the board of 60 percent Inuit employment throughout the territory.
On the first page of the opening remarks of the hon. minister on the last paragraph in there, the Fire Damage Replacement Fund, I’m just curious to know about that.
I would assume that any damage caused by a fire would be covered by fire insurance.
I wish that was the case, but for the housing corporation, this is strictly dealing with public housing damaged by fire. Anything under a four-plex, I believe, or under $2 million is self-insured. So if we have a fire in a duplex or something under a certain level amount that’s self-insured, that we have to fund, we don’t have any insurance for.
Moving on to page 3 of the minister’s opening remarks, he talked about public demand for homeownership programs, which is increasing, according to the statement made by the minister.
In my community, I have heard people talking about willing to sell homes because of the increase in costs to operate and maintain homes. In fact, there was one person who told me that now their family has to turn over their home to the local housing association because they were not able to afford to maintain the home.
I’m wondering: is there really a demand for homeownership programs in Nunavut when economic downturn has been one of the damaging things for homeowners in Nunavut?
As far as homeownership goes, there are different types of programs, not just funding out there to purchase or build a home, but part of this funding includes funding for the Home Repair Program.
I know that we have quite a long waiting list of people on the Home Repair Program and also, there have been people who have applied for homeownership who have been put on a waiting list too because there hasn’t been sufficient funding available for it.
It does vary from community to community.
So in some communities, there is more of a demand than others.
For the record, I would like to state publicly that I support homeownership programs.
For every home that is built to be a private home, we are, as a government, able to build two for that cost.
I didn’t hear a question on that one.
Minister Tootoo, did you wish to respond to that?
I just agree wholeheartedly with the member that I think if there are more individuals who we can support to get into homeownership, it’s better for the territory, it’s better for the communities, and it’s better for the individuals.
I appreciate the member’s comment and his support for that.
The last person I have on our list is Mr. Schell.
I’m just trying to go back to what Paul Okalik had said just to confirm that I got this correct.
If I remember right, I think the original sole sourcing of those fuel tanks was 250 units.
So you’re trying to tell me that there were no other units ordered since then, since those 250. Is that correct?
I said that’s last year’s stuff, so I’ll look into it. As far as I’m aware, there have been none ordered this year.
Going back to the 754 units that you have said that were built with the $200 million trust fund, my question is: was there money taken from elsewhere to cover the costs of the 750 units because we knew there was some overruns on stuff? Was it all taken out of the $200 million or was it taken from some other program?
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Schell. Minister Tootoo.
Hon. Hunter Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don’t have the exact number, but I know there was $200 million plus the corporation was able to utilize the interest that was earned on that as well.
So that’s where some of the additional resources came from for the extra units.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister Tootoo. Mr. Schell.
Mr. Schell: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Going back to these SIP panels here, how many corporations or companies showed interest and put a proposal in to manufacture these panels?
I don’t have the information as to exactly how many proposals were received on that, but I know that there were a number of proposals received and evaluated by the technical staff at the corporation before making a recommendation of which proposal to go forward with.
Well, obviously, you decided on a company to build these. My next question is: are these panels CSA approved?
Hon. Hunter Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would assume that after going through all the technical specifications, they would have to meet national building code standards and everything else before being approved.
So I would assume yes.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister Tootoo. Mr. Schell, thank you. Mr. Arvaluk.
Mr. Arvaluk: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a very short question from the opening comments on page 3, but I’m not sure if that’s the correct one.
On the homeownership programs, there are also homeownership renovations being done in the communities with the assistance of the housing corporation.
However, I was told that after they had been notified that the house would be assisted with renovations to make it more energy efficient, they then gave them a second notice that they will only change their fuel tanks and their furnaces, etcetera, rather than actually renovating the building. How typical is that? Is that rare or that happens all the time?
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Arvaluk. Minister Tootoo.
I didn’t quite understand, so I’m just wondering if I could ask the member if he could clarify the question.
Under the Home Repair Program, I know there was $50,000 that was the max for that program and there would be an additional $15,000 that was on top of that for energy-related renovations as well, for a total of $65,000.
It just kind of piggybacked the other program.
I hope that answers it. If not, he will ask me again, I’m sure.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister Tootoo. Mr. Arvaluk.
Mr. Arvaluk: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With that funding, there have been some changes after actually approving the plan to renovate certain homes. There have been some changes made and only partial renovations for replacement of furnaces, etcetera, and fuel tanks have been done and not actually doing the renovations as planned for this particular year. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) That’s what I’m referring to.
I think what the member is referring to is there have been applications that were put in totalling a certain amount and when it came down to the actual approval and allocation, it was just a fact of, because of the demand on the program, limited resources there to deal with everything.
So things were prioritized with the client and the district staff to identify which were some of the most pressing things that needed to get done, and those things were addressed given the resources that were available.
I don’t know if this is related to the capital, but the housing associations, after constructing buildings, assign tenants and it’s being reported to me over and over and over again that only people with children are considered.
I’m probably just talking about Pond Inlet, but it seems to me that we need housing for these young people who seem to be producing a whole lot of children just to get a house.
But there are actually a few working homeless [people] in my community with full-time jobs staying with families and friends because they have no children.
Do you assist housing associations in developing policy as to who should qualify when the buildings or houses become available or after they have been constructed?
That’s not a capital question, but I will respond to it.
I know that all the LHOs are obliged to follow the point rating system that has been used to allocate units. That’s what they use. They go through the point rating system.
Whoever has the highest points ends up number one on the waiting list.
As the Auditor General pointed out, that’s not always followed in every case and that’s one thing that the corporation or district staff in the programs area are looking at trying to work more closely with the local housing organizations to ensure that the policy is followed and adhered to.
Again I would like to remind the member that we’re trying to deal with capital items here.
Yes, I know that, Mr. Chairman. At the same time, the building that’s being constructed, I think, is capital, but it’s only for a certain part of the community.
For the rest of the community, if you’re young, single, have no children, and your job is not high enough to purchase a new house, then you’re out of luck. You don’t qualify for purchasing a house because your income is too low.
Most of these people work for co-ops or Northern or some other low-paying jobs.
Are there any plans in the capital plans to construct, perhaps, single unit type accommodation or housing for the single people who want to purchase their own homes or rent homes?
It could be a multiplex, it doesn’t matter, but for that part of the population, which is quite a few, that they could be accommodated. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think the only program we have in there that could probably fit under that type of area right now as far as homeownership goes is the Material Assistance Program.
If an individual came up with a design and said, “This is the material I need to build my house,” if it was a one- or two-bedroom unit, whatever they wanted, and came forward with it, I’m sure that would be looked at by the staff as something that could qualify under the Material Assistance Program.
I know that the program hasn’t had a lot of draw over the last three years and that’s something that we’re looking at, not only that program but I think all of our programs. Over the next little while, we will be reviewing on the adequacy of all of them to make sure they are achieving what we want.
That’s where our priority should be as far as homeownership goes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.