EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
So I am not going to get into that debate because we are on the capital budget but I look forward to debating that with him. I love debating that with the gentleman.
Answering the member’s question very quickly, when we look at the demographic breakdown on a given community, we can only make population estimates. That’s why, even when you do your estimates in the House, they’re called estimates. We’re looking at the main estimates and we’re looking at the capital estimates.
So given everything that we know, we try to estimate what costs will be, and that’s why we call them capital estimates. You can’t say they’re actual figures. You’re given a budget and you try to come within that amount.
No different than any other government in the country.
When we look at the accommodations, for example, here in the community of Iqaluit, as the members know, I think right now we rent 35 or 40 units on the private market for family accommodation. We’re trying to get out of those units and have our own accommodation so that we can actually save some money for the government. Why should I go and lease from a given building in the community at $3,000 a month or what have you, when we should have those facilities closer to the campus for the students.
We’re seeing student increases in enrolment across Nunavut, whether it’s at post-secondary right in their own community, or indeed, going to three of the major campuses - Cambridge Bay, Iqaluit, and Rankin Inlet. Therefore, we look at the total costs of dollar values that are available to us when we see those prices going up.
When we look at the value of the project that the member is talking about, we’re projecting and saying, based on the best information to us, here is what those given costs will be in the five-year capital plan.
So hopefully that answers the member’s question and answers his concern about the board of education today.
Mr. Curley: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the minister’s frank response. I thank him for his good memory as well.
Mr. Chairman, I think this is a gentle question that we need to actually develop a tracking system somehow.
Somehow the public, as well as the planners and those of us in politics; because we can only scream at you when we say that there’s no housing in our communities, or that kind of thing; is that it’s important that we have that base somehow incorporated in the planning process, which then would indicate to other regions, based on number of students that are enrolling as well, we would expect at a certain time in the future to have accommodations or whatnot.
The reason I’m asking that is because I think it is important that our students have accommodations that are safe, that are secure, as well as the overall planning as part of the Arctic College facilities and as part of the higher education facilities because there is a tendency in my kind of riding that we should privatize these kinds of units.
So privatization means: why not allow the private sector to build these and lease them to you, but I think I’m cautious, I’m concerned; I’m cautious about it because, like I said earlier, there needs to be a secure place for students to remain in protective places.
So that is one reason why I am arguing for more lead, in my transparent way, of having a planning process into that.
Having said that, Mr. Chairman, I want to compliment the local school board or the local education committee, as well as the people who put up the money; I know that safety is always one of the issues.
I know a very small amount in a place like Rankin Inlet, safety is always the issue with kids crossing roads and that kind of stuff and even trying to get money for that sometimes can become a problem. So I wanted to compliment the local education authority and the department.
At Rankin Inlet this summer we had at least a transparent improvement on the road.
They marked the road and spend a little bit of money.
The local hamlet was involved; the local RCMP was involved, local by-law officers actually involved, as well as the teachers because for years the school committees use to say that the by-law’s responsibility is to ensure that traffic slows down.
I said no. My suggestion to them was: have an organized week of enforcing and getting people involved because just a suggestion doesn’t work sometimes.
So I want to compliment all of the people that were involved in getting the school involved. They actually painted the road so that the cautions, speed limits, and students’ crossing signs were put in. And, that was very noticeable and it’s working, whereas before that, it used to be just a speedway.
So I want to compliment the minister, if you would pass that information to your local teachers as well as the committee.
Chair: Thank you, Mr. Curley.
G-6.
Qikiqtaaluk Region. Minister Picco, did you want to reply to that? Minister Picco.
First of all, I want to address the concern that the member has with the privatization over public accommodations. I strongly disagree with the member in that area.
I believe the opportunity for a government to own its own assets is better in the long run when we can facilitate that.
So owning our own student accommodations is the way to move, instead of having to rent them out from the private sector.
Secondly, the concern the member raises is a good one and he raises the issue of security at those accommodations, but I’m not convinced that having a public owned Q, like we have right now, for example, in Iqaluit, Q units would be more or less secure because it was owned by the Curley Corporation or the Ed. Corporation or so on. So I’m not convinced by that argument.
However, when the dollars are short we have an opportunity to move forward with a private public partnership, or P3 or 3P, and now that the federal government has stepped up to the plate and they’re providing some logistic, as well as administrative and financial money to support that, then maybe that’s something you could look at in the longer term.
Effectively, on the traffic situation, we’re having the roads painted and having a better and safe situation for our children, I commend the people in Rankin Inlet for doing that. I had an opportunity to speak to the Deputy Minister Okpik on the issues with traffic and safety with our students earlier today.
We talked about how we’re seeing more and more issues with motorists, especially in our larger communities like Rankin Inlet.
It’s good to see communities being proactive and we commend them on that, and commend the department officials who are involved in it also.
I appreciate the minister for confirming what I believe, too.
I think that he misunderstood me.
I said earlier that it was tempting by experienced private sector people, like we have in Rankin Inlet, to build such units and lease it back to the government.
It is not my position.
I truly believe and share the minister’s view that these should remain secure and properly safe places for students to roll into that.
So I merely waited as that there were competing forces out there that would like to provide accommodations but I knew that only to try and have a proper planning process, as well as the database for planning such facilities.
(interpretation) So I’ll leave it at that suggestion to correct the minister’s understanding. (interpretation ends) Thank you.
(interpretation ends) G-6.
Qikiktaaluk Region.
I, too, like my colleague, would like to say that the minister is doing an amazing job.
Mr. Chairman, the first question I would like to ask him it deals, on G-6, with the Inuksuk High School renovations that they have outlined in there to take place over the next six years.
I’m just wondering if the minister could give us the current status of that project. I know that there have been some concerns raised by parents here in Iqaluit about how that project is going to proceed.
So I’m just wondering if the minister could give us the status on where they’re at with that project.
First of all, I would like to thank the member for his amazing question.
Mr. Chairman, the Inuksuk High School renovation project has been ongoing since 1998, and in 1998, there was a determination based on the utilization of the school and based on the age of the school, as all members know is one of the oldest schools in Nunavut, and there hasn’t been any major renovations or additions to that building since it was first completed in the early 1970s.
So the idea was to move forward on renovating the building because you would not be able to build today, in the day’s fiscal climate, a school of that size with the dollar values that you have available to you.
The building is structurally sound on its foundation and the idea was to move forward to be able to do a renovation of the facility.
At the same time, over the last three years since I’ve been the Minister of Education, is to look at how we can expedite this project and move it forward faster and so on. To take into concern issues with the school itself, mechanical, electrical, structural, as well as look at opportunities for partnerships and so on, and that partnership, for example, is with the Nunavut Arctic College because it’s right across the street, and is there an opportunity to be able to combine some of the trades training programs and some of the other issues with the school.
When that school was first set up, it was first set up as a post-secondary school where it actually had, in that program, a fully functional trades shop that many of the members have been in many times, and it was left to fall to the wayside.
So that was an opportunity to use that space in the school and so on.
After saying all of that, the concern that the member raises from the community at large is because of recent news articles which says, ‘What’s going to happen to the school?’
Now, the plans that we did have on the renovation was to look at an opportunity to renovate the school, close down different rooms of the school, and leave the students in there and work around the students.
It would cause some disruption but it would keep the school to function the way it is, and the way it is occurring right now.
The second option would be to take all of the students out of the school and look at alternative accommodations for the students elsewhere in the community.
A good example is when Joamie School burned down, as the members know, 90 percent of the Joamie School students were accommodated at Nakasuk School and some of the other facilities around town.
So those types of questions have not been answered. We are hoping to be in a position in December, in about six or seven weeks, to be able to have some options to bring forward with the DEA, and those will be discussed then in a public forum here in the community with parents, with the teachers, with the students, and with the consultation with the DEA to see what is the best direction to move in on the school renovation project.
I think that that’s not so much the concern I had. I’m just relieved to hear the minister indicate that they haven’t set any definite plans yet.
I just want to confirm that he had indicated that once they have different options out, I assume that you’re developing those options with the staff at the school and with the DEA, or is it once you develop those options, then you’re going to go to the DEA and bring it to them for their input and decision on it?
Will it be the department making the decision all on their own as to what it’s going to be, or will the DEAs have some input into whatever option that they feel is most appropriate for the students that they are responsible for?
Hon. Ed. Picco: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The member is correct again. The DEA are looking at options themselves with the school.
It’s important to point out that the DEA have told me that they were not involved in any way with the newspaper article that stated concerns with the school and unlucky cohort and so on. I think that has caused some concern in the public with the way that the paper said there would be issues with the school and so on. So that’s unfair.
What I can say in answer to the member’s question is that the department as well as the DEA are having meetings right now to look at which way to move and have a set of options. I have given to the department a date that I would like to have those option papers come forward to me, as the minister, then to the DEA in cooperation with them on these options, and then I have public meetings.
I would expect the DEA will then go out, as our stakeholder group in the community, and have meetings with parents on some of the options that are available when we look at which direction we go in.
We have some time available to us because construction in earnest won’t begin until this summer. That gives us some time to be able to make sure that we make the right decisions now. And, at the end of the day, what we’re trying to do is make it the least inconvenient as possible to the staff, to the teachers and to the students.
I thank the minister for that response and I’m sure there are a lot of relieved parents out there after hearing that.
Mr. Chairman, the next question I have it deals with status, but I’m not quite sure of whether it was like with similar delays are with construction and renovations, and the minister mentioned it in his earlier comments, and that’s with the Aqsarniit Middle School addition project that was significantly delayed last year and students were there only half time. There were a lot of issues with that.
I understand that over the summer there was some further damage by vandalism, and hopefully, they caught it on camera, but if not, I’m just wondering, for the official record, if the minister could give us the current status of that project.
Is it finally done?
First of all, I’m very pleased to be able to say that we were able to attend the official opening of Aqsarniit Middle School a couple of weeks ago here in the community, and the school was full of parents and teachers, and people are very pleased with the school.
This summer, I think it was on July 6, I received a call that there was a fire at the Aqsarniit School and it was quite worrisome for us after having seen Joamie School burn down.
What occurred, Mr. Chairman, was there was a break-in at Aqsarniit School on July 6, and through that break-in, there was a fire deliberately set. There was arson and it caused about $40,000 worth of damage to the school at that time.
That has been since rectified and so on. Two people have been apprehended by the RCMP for that crime, and indeed, the video camera has played a part in that.
At the same time, there has been ongoing vandalism at the school. At one point this summer several windows facing the Ecole des Trois Soleils School, the French School in Iqaluit, many of the windows were broken out causing several thousand dollars worth of damage and we had to use plywood to board up those windows.
Again, that issue has been rectified. The windows have been replaced and fixed at the best of information to me. Again, those were ongoing issues.
The delay with the construction was the issues with sealift and things arriving in on time. But at the end of the day, the school is open now, it’s at 100 percent and the people are quite pleased with the renovation project.
My next question deals with the student accommodations for Nunavut Arctic College that the minister was talking about earlier here in Iqaluit, and I’m sure the same questions could be asked to the facilities in Rankin Inlet when we get to that appropriate stage.
I think it’s very fair to say that there have been significant delays in that project and I’m just wondering if the minister could give us an indication on what the reasons for those delays were and what the current timeline; when we will finally see some work begin on the Nunavut Arctic College accommodations here in Iqaluit.
There has been a delay on the project and it is no different than what the Chair of the Committee, Mr. Barnabas, was reading in his report earlier.
When we looked at overall capital budget within the Government of Nunavut, we slipped a lot of projects, meaning a lot of projects have been delayed because of the tender packages coming in are so expensive.
In the case of the Nunavut Arctic College building, we’re re-tendering that again next month. We’re hoping to get a better price this time on the tender; we’ve made some modifications to the actual design of the accommodations to see if we can bring the price within that envelope down. The tender amount that they’ve come in with was about $10 million over what we had budgeted for and that’s why we weren’t able to move forward.
We’re looking at having about 12 two-bedroom units in that new accommodation, as well as 12 three-bedroom units and 10 four-bedroom units in total, where single students share the accommodations and so on. So it’s quite a large project. It’s matching very similar to what we’re doing in Rankin Inlet.
The biggest cause for the delay has been the tender packages that keep coming in over budget, similar to what we’re seeing in other departments throughout government.
So then is the minister saying that any time they have a tender come in that’s over budget that they’re re-tendering them, or looking at finding at ways to reduce costs?
What we’re looking at when we have a project in the budget, it has to go forward and a good example is the Nunavut Arctic College accommodations.
We need to move forward on the project. We’re renting 38 to 40 units off the private sector in town and we’re trying to get away from that. So we’re trying to move forward with our own accommodations.
When you put out a tender package, in this case, we had budgeted, as the members know in the House, an X number of dollars for this project, and when you put out a tender and you’re expecting something to come in between $10 million and $15 million, and it comes out as $22 million, then you don’t have the money to do it.
So you re-evaluate the project and say, ‘Okay, what can we change differently in the scope of the project without changing the integrity of that project,’ meaning we still need 10 units and we want 10 units but can the units be a little bit smaller?
You look at the size of the windows and you look at all kinds of things to kind of bring the prices down to be more reflective of what you’ve budgeted for, and then you re-tender that package and put it back out.
We’ve done that in a couple of instances and we have been successful in bringing in prices a bit lower a second time around, and that’s what we’re moving forward on in this case. So, again, we would re-tender this building in November and see what the price comes at. Hopefully, it’ll come in considerably less than what the first one came in at.
If it doesn’t, are you going to go ahead with it anyway?
Hon. Ed. Picco: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Maybe at that point we would take Mr. Curley’s advice and go to the Board of Education and ask for their feelings on it.
No, Mr. Chairman, what we do is, again, look at what are the cost contingencies that are available after we’ve tendered a second time.
If there is a need at that time, where the amounts are substantially over what we’ve budgeted for, then I would go back, as minister, to FMB and say, ‘Look, here’s the situation we’re running into. Is there an opportunity to look at bringing the project forward?’ So that would be the next step after the tender in November.
So I would be in the position, probably early in the new year, to be able to look at what the time frame could be.  The other opportunity is to do an invitational tender to go to certain companies and say, ‘Look, this is what we have available.
Can you do something for us?’ Sometimes you have some luck by going that way.
The minister says that sometimes they get lucky and save money in different ways.
In the event, I guess I’m just wondering where he says if it comes in and it’s way over budget, that they have cancelled the project and gone back and made modifications, and re-tendered.  I know we’ll get to it on the next page but if you take, for example, the project for the combined school in Gjoa Haven that was budgeted $17 million last year and now in at $33 million.
It’s almost double or almost double of what was budgeted. Was that something that was re-tendered back?
Did you follow through that same process in that particular case where there was such a significant increase in budget costs?
I think that’s a good example. We had $17 million in the budget for that project and what we did twice, we went out to re-tender and I believe the last one came in at $33 million.
So we didn’t have the cash flow or the money available to do that but the project needs to go forward because of some of the issues that Mr. Arvaluk talked about earlier, and that is with the crowding situation in the school and with the school itself.
So we decided that we would move forward, but instead of doing it in one big phase, we would phase the project. So we would Phase I of the project with the money available to us and look at trying to bring something forward within the five-year capital plan to be able to complete that project.
So that was the decision that we made, again, to work within the budget framework that we had available to us.
So we didn’t cancel the project because the project needs to go forward based on the school utilization, based on the age of the school, based on some of the other concerns with the student population, and to be able to carry it out.
The way to do it, in this case, is we’ve decided that Phase I and Phase II would be the appropriate mechanism to use.
In the event that they we run into the same problem and I raised it earlier in my opening comments, if we know that our budget numbers are going to be insufficient for projects based on... and we’ve been seeing this for the last couple of years now, where projects are continuously re-tendered or put out because the bids are coming in over budget.
How has the department looked at, ‘Okay, are our numbers accurate, or are we just putting it in there under budget to have the project on the books, because it looks good if we have more projects on the books being done given the limited resources knowing full well that they’re going to come in way over budget and we’re not going to be able to do them anyway.’
I know I’ll be asking all the ministers these questions for each department, but it seems if we know, it’s been like that for a while now, that our budgeting numbers are not sufficient to what’s coming in out there due to whatever external reasons, have there been any thought of re-looking at the budget numbers?
Just very quickly, when Mr. Tootoo says that are we low balling the numbers to get these projects into the capital plan, I have to say to Mr. Tootoo and to the members; we just don’t have that capacity in government to be that strategic.
That doesn’t happen. So that’s not the case for the record.
Mr. Chairman, the member is correct that what we’re seeing is not unique just to Nunavut.
I can give you several examples but I just had an opportunity recently to meet one of our provincial colleagues in Alberta, where they have a lot of economic activity going on. They’re having the same problem with every tender they put out. The projects are all coming in 20, 30, or 40 percent over what they had budgeted for because of the economic boom we do see in the west and because of the skilled shortages that we see in electricians, plumbers, carpenters and so on.
Similarly, what we’re seeing is the same thing in the Northwest Territories, where they have actually moved forward to delay projects, or cancel projects and so on, because they have done tenders and they’re coming in way over budget. So we’re no different than any other jurisdiction as a government.
In the private sector, it’s the same thing. I’m aware of several projects where projects have come in at where they’ve budgeted $3 million, $4 million, and $5 million and they come in at $6 million, $7 million, and $8 million, again, because of what we’re seeing in the economy across Canada and internationally.
So what we’ve been trying to do is: how do we sharpen our pencils, go back in and look at what dollar values we have available to us, and how can we move forward with a project?