EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Under the Coroners Act, I don’t think somebody was directed to do an inquiry.
It seemed like the minister stopped me from asking my questions because she knew there was a review going on.
So I started thinking that she was misleading the House and to date, she cannot respond.
Does the minister know exactly what is going on within her department?
From what I understand of the Rules of the House, and you, as Chair of Committee of the Whole, and the Speaker, as well as your table officers can clarify this, when there is an investigation that’s taking place, whether it be an RCMP investigation or a coroner’s investigation, those matters are not discussed and debated in this House.
At the same, when there’s an investigation related or a court proceeding occurring, those matters are before the courts, or there’s a process under the coroner’s legislation, as far as I understand it, and are matters that are investigated through that process, and as a department, we don’t interfere with that process.
We wait for the courts to rule on issues, the coroners to file their reports, and it’s up to the coroners and the RCMP to determine whether an inquest is necessary or not, or when a coroner is to be called in.
As far as I understand, that’s the procedure that’s in place.
Perhaps, as Chair, through the table officers, you can clarify that for this House. It’s the way I understand the procedure to take place and as far as I know, in terms of the Question Period, the Rules in Question Period is that matters before courts or quasi-judicial are not subject to debate in this House is how I understood it.
So that’s the ruling that your officials, Mr. Chairman, would have to make a ruling on.
I thought I heard him understand what the situation is right now.
Minister, can you clarify if it’s still under investigation or what the status of it is right now?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: I believe I responded to that, Mr. Chairman, that I would have to follow-up with the appropriate minister responsible for doing the investigations with the coroner, and that falls under the Department of Justice.
I would have to follow-up with my colleague to see where that particular file is as it relates to the previous question from, I believe, the November session before I can respond to Mr. Curley’s questions in the House.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister. The minister is stating that she doesn’t know at this time, so I cannot have the member proceed with the same line of questioning.
Do you have another question you would like to ask? Mr. Curley.
Mr. Curley: Mr. Chairman, on the question, certainly, as a member, I have the privilege to ask questions however I frame them.
What I see occurring right now is that I have been blocked from asking questions for events that are not clear or events that, if any occurred, have not happened.
On that basis, I’m trying to clarify for my constituents that there was, as I indicated earlier, I’m saying this as a member with my privileges, that I was asking for it right from last year whether there was a coroner’s inquest to be held. There was never an announcement of a public inquest other than a routine investigation of any death that occurs. That is not called for as a special investigation; that’s a routine job of the local officials of the RCMP.
The minister alluded to the fact that there was a quasi-inquiry going on which no minister has announced or whatever. If it was announced, it would be made public and I wouldn’t have to argue against it.
I believe the minister is using some excuse to prevent me from asking for information on a review that isn’t really happening or called for under the provision of the coroner’s special powers granted to the minister or the Minister of Justice. That’s on that basis.
Mr. Chairman, I believe that your ruling may be appropriate but it’s subject to challenge as well, and I won’t be calling for that at this moment.
I believe you need to allow myself, as a member, a bit more opportunity to clarify questions that are lingering out there because the health facility was a location where the death occurred and the minister responsible has refused to address that particular problem, so I need your help.
The minister had already replied that she doesn’t have a response right now.
The Minister of Justice had already stated that when she is able to respond, she will do so.
Do you have another question, Mr. Curley?
Yes, I will continue to address that and I will not be bound by just promises that something is happening when, in fact, it could be a misleading statement.
That’s not acceptable. I will not ever mislead this government or this Assembly, and sometimes I believe that we’re playing with the rules very loosely.
I have a question to the minister. The minister indicated that she’s working on the retention and recruitment policy. I would like to ask the minister exactly what all of that money... I believe there was an amount over $1 million last year that she said was going to be used for recruitment and retention, and there was some debate, I believe, with that figure, and eventually, the reference to developing strategies for recruitment and retention was removed.
I would like to ask the minister: exactly why is it taking so long to develop that policy or strategy?
The Nursing Recruitment and Retention Strategy was released to every member in November and that document was released to the public in November, a copy was also distributed to the media and so on. I have a copy of a memo I wrote in November to every Member of this House, providing the copy of that, I believe a press release was also issued on that subject that went out to the general population as well as to the staff of Health and Social Services.
Mr. Curley: What is the implementation plan of that strategy?
The implementation plan is in the works; again, I said it was released in November.
Over December and January, the staff had been working very hard on the development of that implementation plan.
There’s also some developmental work that’s in the works related to initiatives around promotion of nursing careers and so on through the RFP process and its departmental stages in terms of developing that.
Having said that, many of the initiatives are tied into the collective bargaining process, and I have said this many times, including in my opening remarks, many of the initiatives outlined in that are subject to the ratification of the union agreement.
So we’re waiting for that process to complete to trigger the implementation of many of the initiatives that are outlined in that report.
Having said that, also that there are some things internally that we can start on, which we have started on internally within the Department of Health.
My understanding is that, with the ongoing provisions of implementing health programs and policies, as well as the medical care locally, obviously, I think the policy is quite clear in respect that the particular level of service must continue and so on, but even with that minimum, the local nurses and health centres continue to operate with tremendous shortage of nurses.
I can give you an example, I don’t know whether they will make any sense to the minister, even just this last week, I was told that, right at the opening of the local nursing station or health centre, they were not accepting any walk-in individuals at the second largest community because they only have two nurses on staff and standby.
Why do you allow such a shortage of nurses in local places like Rankin Inlet?
In terms of recruiting nurses, I have stated many times in this House that there is a nation-wide shortage of nurses.
Currently, in Nunavut, by jurisdictions, we have not closed down any facilities. There is a shortage of permanent nurses; we fill those vacancies through casuals and/or agency nurses.
All jurisdictions are having difficulty attracting and retaining qualified health care professionals, and in a competitive market, such as the nurses, they are highly mobile and they have access to opportunities across the country.
The Department of Health has done a lot of work to try and develop a long-term Nursing Recruitment and Retention Strategy, as tabled in this House, to be a living document, and I stated again in the House that we have put that plan together in partnership with frontline nurses, nurses, and public health nurses in Nunavut.
The proposals we put forward to the union are part of the issues, and again, that’s subject to the collective bargaining process.
We’re trying to train our own nurses in Nunavut as part of the initiatives. So there’s a whole bunch of parallel initiatives that are taking place to try and address building capacity within Nunavut.
Back in 2004-05, we were down to I believe 40 percent capacity with nurses.
We’re close to 50 percent in our nurses – we have 70 positions vacant in Nunavut of the 211 positions.
We continue to fill those vacancies through agency nurses and casuals, and we continue to hire our graduates in Nunavut.
The challenge is great, and just two weeks ago, I met with nurses and mental health workers at the Discovery Lodge Hotel to talk about some of the challenges they face, at the same time, to try and support the nurses at the frontline that are under a lot of pressure in delivering services.
So the partnership, in working with our nurses to address their issues on a daily basis, is one that I have committed to and I have worked very hard the last two years to try and address in putting forth a Nursing Recruitment and Retention Strategy, putting forth a competitive proposal to the union, agreeing to review the compensation levels of our nurses and comparing those levels to Canada.
We have committed to that, we have talked to the union about that, and we have talked to our nurses about that.
So there are a number of initiatives in the works, and right now, we are not at 100 percent capacity but I believe the department is in the right direction in trying to address their needs.
Of course, we can’t meet all their needs.
Another part that has been a challenge to them was the issue of housing, which Minister Tapardjuk had announced that he would help and the recommendations he announced in his Budget Address will also help address some of the challenges in our hiring. So there are a number of initiatives that we’re trying to undertake in our communities.
As it relates to that particular situation in Rankin Inlet, I will speak to... and I know that in our health centres, on clinic days, there are appointments and there are walk-ins that don’t fit in unless it’s an emergency. They try and book the next available slot for walk-ins so long as they’re not emergencies.
I know that that’s the practice in communities but I can look into what happened in that particular situation in Rankin Inlet.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. I know the minister is trying to justify how great a job and so on, and that she is dealing with the emergency situation with respect to nursing shortages and so on, but the minister is not very convincing, Mr. Chairman, and I’ll tell you why.
The reason is she has gone through a number of deputy ministers, so the minister should not use two-year ago stuff and the experience of all of these deputy ministers that have not worked for more than a year for the last I don’t know… I forgot; I won’t tell you.
So in that regard, the minister should be focusing on exactly what the shortages are in local Rankin Inlet. She doesn’t know; it’s a shame. Nurses need help.
What is the current status of local doctors in Rankin Inlet? I believe they’re on a fly-in, fly-out basis temporarily, so that’s another question. Have you recruited actual resident doctors for the region based in Rankin Inlet?
I’m just going to pull the current staffing levels and vacancies for Rankin Inlet’s chart, hang on.
Currently, in Rankin Inlet, as far as I can see from my chart here, there are seven nurses in Rankin Inlet. I don’t believe there are vacancies there based on my list that I have here with me. In terms of doctors in Kivalliq overall, Kivalliq has 4.5 positions and there is a vacancy of one position for the region for doctors.
This is a common concern pertaining to the doctors by our constituents since it seems they do not check the previous charts. The charts are not followed up by the doctors when checking patients from the communities.
For this reason, I would like to ask the minister: do you have any plans? Yesterday, I stated that there is too much political interference within the administration in the regions.
I was stating whether it is time for an administrator to deal with the staffing of the nurses and to look at the whole delivery of health care in the community level, including perhaps local administrators in the communities to try and resolve the regional issues, including nursing issues. Have you taken these areas into consideration?
The deputy ministers and assistant deputy ministers are all politically appointed so they should not be the ones that are controlling these matters. (interpretation ends) Thank you.
The deputy ministers are appointed by the Premier; the assistant deputy ministers are hired through a competition process; and assistant deputy minister positions and down, to directors, to executive directors, to regional managers, to managers, officers, interpreters, clerks, those are all hired through a competition process; they’re not hired by me directly.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. (interpretation) I don’t think she understands my Inuktitut.
I think the administrators have to be in the hospitals, (interpretation ends) independent from these political appointments. (interpretation) If this is not the case, our process will never work properly.
I would like her to review the idea of having adminstrators and if we are to finish prior to Monday, I would encourage other members to ask that question.
Also, the business plan states that on page H-4, I’m happy to see the Mental Health Training Program that’s in place because there are many people that experiencing extreme hardships in the communities.
It’s not just in my community, but others as well where people are endangering others, due to mental pain and anguish since there is very little mental health support in any community.
Will the minister support the training program for mental health workers in Nunavut? There are no facilities and none on the horizon.
However, if we could hire properly trained staff in our communities, then our elders wouldn’t be in such dangerous situations.
You said that the two-year Mental Health Training Program is starting up. Can the minister clarify to the House what is actually transpiring in this program, please?
The Mental Health Program is one of many programs that are being offered in Nunavut through the Department of Education and the Nunavut Arctic College to address the shortage of health care professionals in Nunavut.
It’s being delivered; the individuals graduated this year and are in practicum now.
In terms of the delivery, the design of the curriculum, and so on, those questions should be directed to the Minister responsible for Education as they are the delivery agent.
As I indicated earlier, the area of mental health is a very important issue for many Nunavummiut.
Many of our individuals that are in mental health situations put tremendous pressure on elders as they’re the only ones that are providing emotional care for mental health because there are no institutions to put them into.
The minister really should have a whole lot more substantial information and assistance provided to us. We can’t just say we don’t have any money; there is tremendous waste.
We even have a surplus of $4.5 million, and yet, she says she doesn’t have any money.
But, I would like to ask the Minister of Education…
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: I have a Point of Order, Mr. Chairman.
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Mr. Chairman, my point is that I didn’t say that.
You can’t just state in the House what I haven’t said and what I didn’t say; I didn’t say that.
I said the program is being offered through the Nunavut Arctic College. Did I say we didn’t have any money?
In terms of what I do say, I would suggest the member be careful in terms of what he’s saying I’m saying because he’s putting words into my mouth that I did not say.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. I believe the minister should wait until I complete my presentation so she does understand if she didn’t understand me.
And, I think that’s one good quality that she should get is to learn to listen, so I will carry on.
I understand that, for instance, mental health care is underfunded and I have the right to say it’s underfunded. There’s no money in the budget; the minister hadn’t put any.
Therefore, I am right to say it’s underfunded as the minister has not submitted any major mental health delivery program for Nunavummiut, and that is correct, Mr. Chairman.
My question: has the Minister of Health indicated that the question should be addressed to the Minister of Education on that?
So therefore, could the Minister of Education explain to us exactly what the Mental Health Training Program is about, the two-year program, in detail, and can the minister indicate to us why he is not allowing this Mental Health Training Program for Nunavummiut as an accredited program?
There was a Point of Order called but there’s a debate going on and they’re collecting facts, and I know that there is no Point of Order.
It’s very interesting listening to the debate between the minister and the member. When we’re usually dealing with the operations budget of government and government departments, redirects are usually approved when there’s a specific question on the budget that’s before the House. In this case, my budget isn’t up for debate; however, I am prepared to discuss the budget in some detail.
The question on accreditation is an easy one to answer.
Accreditation of any program in Nunavut, or any other jurisdiction for that matter, there are two types of accreditation that are brought forward.
One is what we call a national or international accreditation. Good examples of that are our Nursing Program, our Law Program, and our Teacher Education Program. Those programs are accredited, meaning once a person finishes that program and gets a Bachelor of Education Degree or a Nursing Degree, for example, they can take that accreditation or that degree and they can work anywhere in the country when they apply for accreditation in that given province, given the instruction and the academic background that they received.
In this case, with the Mental Health Program, the Mental Health Program itself is coordinated through the Nunavut Arctic College and is accredited in Nunavut.
We haven’t taken that program and asked if the accreditation or the diploma that a person would receive from that program would be accredited in another jurisdiction.
So hopefully that helps answer and clarify the member’s question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister Picco, and I thank you for clarifying some of the issues.
Mr. Curley, do you want an answer from the Minister of Health?
I think I was on the right page when dealing with the… on H-4 of the business plan of the government, and in particular, the Minister of Health, the program, it is stated, will begin in September 2005 and expanded from Rankin Inlet... I’m sorry.
A Mental Health Training Program is offered through Arctic College, so we are consistent with the minister if he was a bit worried about it or whatnot.
I have another question in view of the fact that I’ll be leaving. I would like to ask the minister a question on the same page and the same paragraph. The minister indicated that the Midwifery Program which began in Rankin Inlet, “… expanded from Rankin Inlet to Iqaluit…” Could the minister explain to us exactly what she means by “expanded”?
You will notice that your time has expired and I have another name on the list.
I’ll get back to you if you have any questions later on. I’ll take this question for now.
The Midwifery Program is now being offered in Iqaluit and has been offered in the past through Nunavut Arctic College in Rankin Inlet. There is a birthing centre, as the member knows, in Rankin Inlet.
So the program and some of the students, I believe, are working in the hospital here to do their practicum for midwifery.
Mr. Alagalak: I guess there’s no light in my desk here, so... it’s your fault?
(interpretation) I wanted to ask...
Mr. Alagalak: What’s going on?
Some Hon. Members: There’s no light bulb.
Mr. Alagalak: No light bulb, alright. (interpretation) I believe we’re in the Directorate and I think it’s appropriate to ask my question on this page.
In the minister’s opening comments during Committee of the Whole a few days ago, she stated, and possibly I’ll ask a question first, that the Nursing Program will be enhanced as it’s one of the goals.
I’m sure that it would be a cost saving measure if we start producing nurses that are trained here and we will most likely be less dependent on agency nurses.
Where would the cost saving be? Would it be because the nurses will be making less money, or is it because we’re going to be using less agency nurses?
We’re on H-4.
I believe the member is referring to my opening remark about developing our own capacity within Nunavut to address the nursing shortage.
I guess, overall, the concern has been the high cost of agency nurses and what we’re trying to do in Nunavut is to reduce the dependency on agency nurses by developing a long-term Nursing Recruitment and Retention Strategy for our nurses in Nunavut, and that involves a number of initiatives; whether it be training on-the-job, professional development, increase and review of their compensation, and so on.
The salary levels for all our nurses are determined through the collective bargaining process and that issue on bargaining is still pending.
So the high cost related to the use of agency nurses is the recruiting and the travel, the relocation and filling in the jobs, is what I had alluded to in my opening remarks.
I can’t seem to understand; I have a lot of bass that I can hear and I think it’s a low tone. I’m having problems with my mic here.
Anyways, I wanted to refer back to the comments that you made earlier in the committee meeting. I would also like to ask you about the strategy and the Nursing Program.
It’s a long-term goal and it applies today, but my question is: how long would the Nursing Program be?
You stated that it was a long-term goal; how many years are we talking about when it comes to training Nunavut-based nurses?
The Nunavut’s Nursing Recruitment and Retention Strategy is meant to be a working document with five-year initiatives in there and longer.
What we have also put in place to support this long-term initiative is a working group of nurses and people in the field to oversee directions to focus it in terms of some of the challenges faced by our frontline nurses in Nunavut. So it’s meant to be a long-term strategy in that it’s not one year at a time. I had mentioned, I believe, five years as a start but we will continue to do that.
The idea with the development of this strategy was to have the people that deliver health care services at the community level and the hospital level to be involved in guiding and directing the Department of Health on the issues around the nurses’ challenges and in addressing nursing fields.
So in that way, it’s long-term; beyond five years.
Mr. Alagalak (interpretation): Thank you. That’s very good to hear. Some people decide not to further their training because the programs are not long-term, so I have another question.
At that time you were making your comments, you stated that you were going to be going into the House to talk about the possibility of pursuing a career in the health profession.
What kind of incentives would you offer in order to attract individuals who would like to pursue careers in nursing?
I’m going to ask the deputy minister to respond to that question.
Mr. Campbell (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) Some of the incentives that we’re looking at that the minister indicated earlier have been tabled through the collective bargaining process. We’re looking at having a long-term training program for Nunavut nurses and we’re trying to attract Inuit nurses into the profession.