EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
We all decided two continuing care facilities would proceed and that we would start the construction for those two continuing care facilities in the following summer.
So we had to speed up the process.
So from what I understand from Ms. Brown, the two projects for Taloyoak and Repulse were put on hold at that time to accommodate those new priorities set by Full Caucus in Arviat.
Mr. Curley: Mr. Chairman, that argument or case may be useful, but we did not deal with expenditures or cancel them.
I recall that these regional centres were important; these health facilities. We never discussed which project should be deferred as a result of these new important facilities.
Five-year plans are normally at the discretion of this Assembly, not some consultation process being carried out by the Premier or anything. That isn’t how this Assembly works.
The five-year planning process is normally, as a guide, respected by Members of this House and when there are major changes to it, we want to know why. An explanation has never been... I don’t believe that it’s that difficult.
So therefore, we’re trying to find out exactly where these dollars were re-allocated.
And, if I was the minister I don’t think I would be shy about it. We just want facts. Facts shouldn’t be that hard to get because, obviously, they are normally recommended to the House for approval.
Surely, the minister or his officials could explain why defer the project when, in fact, all of the CGS technical studies and sound advice, like one of the officials used that word, were already provided to proceed with the projec.
So that’s my point.
I think that’s more of a comment than a question, but I will give the minister a chance to respond.
Those types of questions would have been more appropriate when those capital plans were being discussed in 2004-05. In 2007, I’m having to respond to questions of what took place in 2004-05 and 2005-06 in the year 2008-09.
I tried to explain, again, the pressures this government was under in constructing the hospital here, in Rankin Inlet, in Cambridge Bay, and if you look back again to the 2003 capital plan, there were only two items that were not done and that was: Taloyoak and Repulse Bay.
All of the other projects in Pond, Pangnirtung, Igloolik, Iqaluit, Chesterfield Inlet, Rankin Inlet and Cambridge Bay were done.
So what we’re trying to do is move forward to finish that.
Yesterday we spoke about the capacity issues internally.
We did not have the capacity to manage all of those projects. We have one capital planner and manager, and that’s Ms. Brown. The Government of Nunavut, in terms of its own project manager capacity, was an issue as well, and so some of the projects were put on hold.
We could not entertain any new projects with a $64 million facility going up here, a $16 million facility in Rankin and so on, and so on. They had put pressure on our system at that time.
Continuing care facilities took priority. So there’s only so much we can do with limited dollars and staff to manage projects.
Again, the plan here before us today is to try and get the projects done that we had committed to for Repulse Bay and Taloyoak, approved, and to deal with the aging facilities, all of the facilities, not just health centres but other facilities, such as Arctic Bay, Cape Dorset, and Qikiqtarjuaq. And, to do technical assessments on those buildings to start focusing our resources in addressing aging facilities now that we have all of the new major projects out of the way; the hospitals and so on. So that’s the focus the department is going forward.
Mr. Campbell here mentioned that we want to go forward and do technical assessments so that we have that information before us to start addressing aging facilities, not just health centres but other facilities within the Department of Health.
H-6. Mr. Tootoo.
I just want to clarify something. The minister keeps saying, she said a number of times over the last few days that she is trying to complete a project that was approved in 1999 from the First Assembly.
The project that she’s talking about, and that we’re looking at right now, is the health centre replacement project. The project that was on the books since 1999 that she keeps referring to was health centre residential renovations.
I’ll read the background of the existing conditions. “The nursing residence is attached to the health centre and it’s comprised of three large suites. They are of insufficient design.
There is critical shortage of housing in Taloyoak. The Kitikmeot Health and Social Services region wants to renovate them into smaller units, to modernize them, and increase the numbers.”
That’s a totally different project than a health centre replacement, and so I fail to understand why the minister keeps referring to this project that has been on the books that they have been trying to finish since 1999, when it’s a totally different project than what was on the books in 1999.
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: I will have Ms. Brown go through that process again and explain the substantiation sheet from 1999, when this whole process started, to where we are at today with that, from the time it was put on hold and five years later, where we picked up again.
So Ms. Brown, if you can go through that again.
In 1999, the Department of Health did not inherit any five-year capital plans from the Government of the Northwest Territories. There was a small blurb about finishing off some furniture for the Gjoa Haven Health Centre. We were starting from absolute scratch.
I was not the capital planner then but I was asked to help put together the department’s first capital plan.
There was hardly anybody in CGS and there was hardly anybody in the whole Government of Nunavut, to be quite honest.
The bottom line is that I contacted each Executive Director of the Department of Health in the regions. I contacted the regional directors or project managers, where they existed, for the Department of; it was then; Public Works and Services. We got the best idea of what kind of project should we even look at given that we had a total of about one month to put the first capital plan together.
In Taloyoak, it came up that they would like to have some more residential units on top of the health centre. This was 1999.
It was put in the capital plan as a request, and subsequently, when we got CGS, the fire marshal, and some of those other people to investigate that, it was not possible to do that because of the requirements of safely exiting the building from the second floor.
When we subsequently went to standing committee indicating that this project was not going to be doable, we were instructed, at that time, to re-look at the health centre in Taloyoak to see what further needs that they had.
This spearheaded into the technical assessment, which then, once we’ve got that spearheaded into the following year, the Functional Program review by visits to the community, by visits to the hamlet, by looking at the population projections and all of that, and that’s where, in that 2003 document, that the renovation and addition of the health centre started to be in the capital plans.
After the award of the architectural and engineering contract by CGS, all of the impacts that the minister talked about started to happen. The three regional health facilities required a lot of time.
The project was then put on hold in terms of further looking at anything to do with renovations and additions.
When we were getting at least the Kivalliq and Kitikmeot health centres on the way, then the requirement to fast track community continuing care centres came in as a requirement. Like the minister said, we found out in the fall and the requirement was to try to start building something the next year, which was impossible but at least we got the design underway. Between CGS and the Department of Health, they put teams together to work on these things.
The bottom line is, again, Taloyoak as well as Repulse Bay went on a waiting list. What happened is each year the design money for Repulse Bay and Taloyoak carried forward in the capital plan.
To fund the continuing care centres, the department was instructed to put them in the capital plan.
So the department re-prioritized and asked for funds for the construction of the continuing care centres, and then, in the capital plan, it still showed, for Taloyoak and Repulse Bay, that they were pushed back in the plan.
That’s the chronology as I know it. The bottom line is that the government said that there was only so much money. The continuing care centres came first.
Now, when we are at the stage this past year of looking at the renovation and the addition for Taloyoak, looking at the schematic designs produced by the architect, and doing some cost estimates by independent quantity surveyors, it became non cost effective with the changes of code, with the health and safety issues, with infection control, and construction.
CGS and the Department of Health decided the best way would be a standalone building. That is why, in the substantiation sheet that was presented to FMB, the standing committee, and now, COW, the project is not a renovation and addition.
The recommendations that CGS and the Department of Health came forward to, and that has been put forward in the Department of Health’s plans, is it’s not a residential renovation and it is not the renovation and addition. It is a new health centre for the community of Taloyoak.
This goes back to 1999.
Projects change throughout their lifetime. That’s the best I can do.
Mr. Tootoo, I think you got a bit more than you asked for.
Please try to keep your questions and answers to the point.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to raise a point. I got exactly what I wanted.
It’s not a renovation project, it’s a new project. That’s what I’ve been saying.
I’m also a little confused or concerned about what has been talked about in this committee in the last five days.
When you look at the books or the plans, everybody is saying that it was a renovation, and then it became a new building or a new facility.
I’m talking about what the other members have been talking about.
I heard somebody say that they are pleased with what they see in Qikiqtarjuaq and they are pleased with the renovations that they have been doing to that facility.
So they are putting up a new building because they are not pleased with it. Is that what it means?
I’ll try to explain. In terms of the Functional Program, they are still the same.
The need for a number of patient rooms, dental rooms, examining rooms, storage rooms; all of that is still the same. What has changed is the different ways to get to B from A.
What we were advised is that based on the increasing costs of construction, the changes in building codes, the health and safety, the new code that came out with infection control, to renovate the facility over five years, would cause concerns on infection control in the delivery of health care services in that facility.
We couldn’t renovate for five years and continue to provide health care services in that building within the codes. The health and safety of patients, the protection of not spreading infection, and to renovate a building for five years was deemed to be more expensive than to construct a new facility. The cost was going higher and higher.
So it was determined with CGS staff and Health that it would be cheaper, and at the same time it would address the infection control and it would not increase the risk of jeopardizing the delivery of health care services to build new. That was the recommendation put forth.
I found out about this when I was at a hamlet meeting in Taloyoak back in April-May. I was told by the hamlet council that the architects were recommending a new building. I didn’t know anything about it until then, at which time I followed up to find out.
So, based on that, the recommendation from the technical team is to put forward a new building to meet the infection control standards and the cost of construction.
We’re still on page H-6. Qikiqtaaluk Region.
I am thankful for the reminder, but I have concerns with what I heard around the table in the committee.
Also, I heard the minister saying that they’re following the plans that were created in 1999 but it looks like we’re not.
It’s been changed over the years.
I had a question earlier today to the Minister of CGS because our dozer disappeared from the five-year plan.
Also, I want to say that all of the facilities in Sanikiluaq are also older than the 20 year old facilities that we’re talking about.
Our facility is 24 years old. It’s old now and it’s not even in the capital plan.
We can witness that it’s falling apart and that you had to spend unexpected funding last year because it’s falling apart.
When will we see the facility put in the capital plan? Can we see it soon?
We had to deal with Sanikiluaq and we borrowed money from the Taloyoak facility to address the emergency repairs in Sanikiluaq which put another delay into that process.
The department committed to do a review of all its health facilities and its long-term facilities through the technical team. We want to put technical assessments on all of our aging facilities and to do the planning for construction. That was a question, again, Mr. Arreak had raised as well.
So we made that commitment and we would like to do that within this fiscal year.
Does that include my constituency?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Yes, it does.
Mr. Curley: Mr. Chairman, I want more clarification because it’s probably not the first time some of the projects that were within the five-year-plan and made your approval have been voted on.
I believe it’s quite significant when the Assembly votes for a significant amount like $400,000. That’s not a small amount.
It is not at the discretion of regional planners to cancel a project unless it has approval from the minister, or FMB for all that matter.
So am I correct in saying that the minister could ultimately change any five-year plan even after we had voted a certain amount of dollars?
As is the case with this plan that you just answered, you can ultimately change it without asking the Assembly for a vote on it.
A minister alone can’t do that. You know that.
Any changes to this goes to Cabinet, or through FMB, or supplementary bills, there are processes within FAM and so on, and I can’t do that by myself.
Yes, I fully understand that.
My understanding is that the funds that were originally allocated for Repulse Bay appear to have disappeared from the face of the Earth.
They cannot be accounted for. There is no approval for recommending what year and where they went.
These were simple questions that I asked.
Shouldn’t there be an investigation into these funds as to where they went because they appear to have disappeared.
Where was the amount of $6.5 million, as originally planned, allocated?
The minister said we had health centres here; regional centres here. Surely, some minister recommended because the FMB alone will not approve anything unless it is recommended with substantial argument from the Minister responsible for Health and Social Services.
So I’m asking the minister: how did they get to be changed?
Why would the minister want to recommend to FMB if she has to change it without consulting this House?
To explain the process, each fiscal year we approve projects, such as the 2008-09 capital in November. The fiscal year from last year ends March 31.
So any capital projects approved last November, if it’s going to be carried into the new fiscal year, is carried over through the supplementary appropriation process.
If you approved money in last year’s main estimates, that fiscal year ends March 31.
So the Minister of Finance will be tabling sup bills from capital projects that need to be transferred into another fiscal year and we do that through the supplementary appropriation bill.
What’s before you today is new money for capital for this year. It’s not last year’s money, it’s this year’s.
And, that money then can be spent and if we don’t spend it by March 31, the same process applies to supplementary appropriation bills and you then transfer that money to the New Year.
Just like in the hospital here, we transferred money from fiscal year to fiscal year for the last seven years to finish the hospital here.
That same process applies in this case.
We approved funding from Repulse Bay last year and the years before that, and it goes through that process; it’s carried over.
What’s before us here is new money that had not been previously been approved, and if we don’t spend that by March 31 next year, then we go through that same process again.
Total Qikiqtaaluk Region. $8,646,000.
Committee Motion 009 – 2(4): Bill 16 – Delete $200,000 from Taloyoak Health Centre Project # 500239 (Barnabas)
I have a motion on the floor.
I move that that $200,000 in proposed funding for the Taloyoak Health Centre Replacement, Project # 500239, be deleted from the 2008-09 Capital Estimates of the Department of Health and Social Services.
We are just passing the motion around.
So just wait a couple of minutes.
Do all the members have a copy of the motion?
Before we proceed with debate on the motion, I have a few comments to make as to procedures.
Every member has the right to speak once to the motion for the total time of 20 minutes.
The mover of the motion speaks first. The mover of the motion has the right to the last reply which closes the debate.
To the motion. Mr. Barnabas.
It is evident now, with the different responses coming and looking at the things we have seen this week, the funds are allocated to one thing and then re-allocated to something else. We’re getting confused with the responses that we’re getting from the minister and her officials. For that reason, I have made this motion.
Over the last several days now we have been looking at the Department of Health and Social Services’ Capital.
I believe in the last 90 minutes that a very good explanation and a chronological sequence of events has been brought forward, not only by the minister but, indeed, by Ms. Brown, was above reproach here in this House and Mr. Campbell.
I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the concern here is that there has been some manipulation of the project within the community for political partisanship, and if that seems to be the case and if that’s the indication, then that is incorrect for the record.
I would ask that members vote with us to defeat the motion.
We need to move forward with the project for the Taloyoak Health Centre replacement in Taloyoak so that we can have a better health care facility in the community for the residents.
$200,000 is one tenth of one percent of the total budget for the Department of Health and Social Services.
All of it is planning money. It’s not to swing hammers or anything right now in the community.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. I appreciate the minister trying to say that he and his colleagues have the best planned capital projects for the health care facilities for Nunavut, but the Government House Leader failed, as well as the Minister of Health and Social Services failed to explain and respond to the question I repeatedly asked: why should I support this capital plan?
There is zero.
My constituents and I are not blind. We can read.
There are no dollars, not one penny allocated for the Kivalliq region.
The Government House Leader just said this is a great plan. And, the Government House Leader could be misleading this Assembly if he uses the argument that this is the best plan for Nunavut.
It is not. It has zero dollars for the Kivalliq region and the minister, to say that deleting the item, which would propose an alternative plan to try and make the budget equitable and fair for Nunavut, is not what they want.
Your vote will mean that Kivalliq is not important, and I fail to see why the government would all of a sudden wake up and feel that they now have the best plan.
They have been given a chance.
We have advised you to treat Nunavummiut fairly, equitably, and represent Nunavummiut across the board without favouring one region or the other.
That’s not happening right now, Mr. Chairman.
So I’ll vote in favour of the motion.
I have been waiting patiently for five days to get to the Kitikmeot region. I thought we had been talking about the Kitikmeot region, but we’ve been talking about the Qikiqtaaluk region for five nights.
Three seconds into the Kitikmeot region, we’ve got a motion to delete the Taloyoak for $200,000.
Mr. Chairman, I’m not 100 percent convinced myself, after listening for five or six days, or even the last three weeks, on all government departments, not just Health and Social Services, we’ve got the capital plan for 2008-09 for all government departments. I’m not 100 percent convinced, in my mind, after listening to all questions that the capital planning process didn’t proceed according Government of Nunavut capital planning process.
CGS, Community and Government Services, has a project delivery guide that has the step-by-step process. They work for the departments; the departments are called client departments. So CGS has their officials, architects, engineers and others in there that provide specialized services to the departments in preparation of departmental capital plans and specific projects.
We’ve been beating up on Ms. Brown and the Department of Health. She is just one person, a single capital planner but Community and Government Services has probably 10 or 15 people in there and they help all government departments.
The evidence, in my mind, then is that this process is very complicated and very technically difficult, and then when we’re dealing with multiple fiscal years, we’ve got a small pot of money, we are shuffling monies around, nothing happens in a straight line, I don’t believe.
I remember when I was with the municipalities, I used to lobby for help for the municipalities, and the ministers at the time were moving money from one capital project to another because they had unexpected emergencies.
The federal government would charge some mayor in some town somewhere a $100,000 fine and one year in jail if they didn’t fix up their water or sewer lagoon, so it was an emergency. So the government had to react and move money from one project to another, and that’s a fact of life.
That’s reality and that’s how we had to keep these things in mind.
For us as MLA, and me as an MLA, I’m not privy to every detail in the government’s planning process, nor do I want to be. And, that’s not my job to be a detective, be a lawyer, be an architect, or be an engineer. My job is to ask questions and be satisfied in my mind that the government followed the process, if not exactly to the T, as close as they can because nothing is perfect in life.
With 100 percent, we’re expecting too much.
I believe there are two departments involved in capital planning.
In this case, it’s Community and Government Services and Health. Last week it was Community and Government Services and another department or two. So CGS provides facility planning and project management to client departments
And, if I don’t have confidence at this point after three weeks that Community and Government Services followed the process to help Health and Social Services to get their projects to this stage, then how can I have confidence in all the projects we’ve just approved in the last three weeks that were done according to the rules and procedures, specifications and plans.
We would have to go back and re-open it, and we could nit-pick for days on every project. I’m convinced we could. I know, as MLAs, we try to do the best for our regions.
I want to ask some questions on the Kitikmeot region because I don’t see the Kitikmeot Medical Boarding Home. I have some questions there.
I hope I get that opportunity when this vote is over.
So, Mr. Chairman, with those comments, I will tell my colleagues that I will not support this motion.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Peterson. To the motion.
For me, it’s not a matter because there’s nothing in Kivalliq, or it should be here, or should be there.
I think over the last few days we started off with questions posed to witness during the Committee of the Whole of Community and Government Services on how capital projects are determined.