EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
As members are aware, many knowledgeable and experienced people live in Nunavut who are competent and able to do many different jobs.
It is important that practical, real-life experience be given due credit, and the committee encourages the Department to ensure that the regulations reflect this.
Mr. Chairman, this Act is groundbreaking in many ways. For that reason, the committee recommends that the minister formally report back to the House a year from now on the implementation of the Bill and its regulations, their impact on contractors, the number of contractors certified under the new regulations, and any areas that may require enhancement.
Mr. Chairman, the committee is pleased to note the provisions in the Bill that will allow contractors to take on a self-regulatory role. Due to a relatively short construction season, it is important that projects in Nunavut be able to move ahead with a minimum of delay. This new system will allow contractors, based on past performance, to work in a timelier manner without waiting for inspections.
Mr. Chairman, the committee understands that the technical nature of this Bill requires that extensive regulation making powers be given to the minister.
However, the committee is concerned that increasing the amount of regulations while reducing the content of statutes can result in the diminishment of the democratic process.
It is for this reason that the committee is pleased with the Minister’s commitment to provide copies of the new regulations to the Committee for review prior to their coming into effect.
It is important to note that as Acts become increasingly technical, more substantive elements of policy are creeping into regulations.
It is important that elected legislators be provided with the opportunity to scrutinize the proposed regulations in the same way that we scrutinize Bills.
We encourage the practice of providing draft regulations to Committees of this House.
Mr. Chairman, the Committee recognizes that the department has conducted stakeholder consultations and appreciates the Minister's candour as to outcome of those consultations.
The Committee realizes that it is difficult to satisfy all parties when safety is an issue and is pleased to see the Department striking a balance between safety and efficiency.
The Committee encourages the Department to continue to work towards achieving consensus as they complete draft regulations.
Mr. Chairman, The Standing Committee recommended that the Department look at establishing a body to hear appeals, choose new codes, make decisions regarding certification and incorporate Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit.
In response the Minister indicated that funds are not presently available for such a Committee.
However as Nunavut develops and the private sector expands with more contractors, it may be important to pay close attention to this issue and perhaps form a committee for these purposes at a later date.
Mr. Chairman, the Standing Committee recommends the passage of the Bill to all Members.
On that Mr. Chairman I’d like to say that this Bill is a Safety issue Bill.
I think it is out there to protect the residents of Nunavut.
It doesn't have to deal with standards and criteria on behalf of the department coming forward with new standards and criteria.
I think it is a good Bill to protect the residents of Nunavut from sloppy work and accidents.
Minister you are able to take your seat at the witness table.
Who will be joining you?
I would like to ask the Minister if he could bring in his witnesses.
Welcome Mr. Minister and please introduce your witnesses so that the members will know who you are sitting with.
So please introduce your witnesses.
To my right is the Deputy Minister for Public Works and on my left Ed Zebedee who is in charge of safety.
Before we go on to questions I would like to ask the Committee if they have general comments.
When we are dealing with Bills in Committee of the Whole each Member has 10 minutes to make general comments and after general comments we will be dealing with questions.
Does the Committee have any general comments?
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just briefly.
The inspectors that do the inspections on electrical equipment.
I think it was stated yesterday that we have to spend our money wisely, six million is a not a lot of money, and we spend a lot of money on inspectors.
Mr. Speaker, I raise this question because in the communities there are a lot of technicians that are certified, living in Nunavut.
Some technicians work on furnaces and so on.
Are they starting to certify individuals or people in the communities?
To respond to Mr. Arvaluk’s question, this bill was put together so that it better reflects Nunavut.
The Technical Standards and Safety Act was put forward and it was amended from the former grandfathered Act of the former government.
I’ll get Ed Zebedee to respond to Mr. Arvaluk’s question.
Mr. Zebedee.
Mr. Zebedee: The department does not certify any individual.
Certification comes from the Department of Education and the Apprenticeship Training Branch.
All we do is inspections and as far as inspectors go, all inspectors must be certified as a trade’s person in the discipline that they do the inspections in.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Zebedee.
So I understand then, if a person, a tradesman is certified by the Department of Education in the community, that person can be assigned by the Public Works to be an inspector for buildings or other installations that’s being done in the community rather than importing Public Works inspectors from outside of the community.
Is that what you’re saying?
We’re on general comments at the moment.
Mr. Arvaluk if it’s okay with you after general comments he can get back to and you could raise that question.
Mr. Havioyak (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, minister and your witnesses.
Whenever you see an Act like this, it takes a load off your shoulders because this is a safety policy for the workers.
For example, when they are putting up an electrical system and plumbing, they have to be inspected to see if they’re put in properly.
That is why it is good to see Acts like this and when these workers have journeymen certificates I think those should be looked into carefully because it show that person is a journeyman.
Because when a person is assigned to inspect a certain project it tells you that you can inspect the work that’s been done before.
If for instance, a new building is finished and it’s not inspected by a certified inspector, when are you going to know if that building is safe to live in?
Like James mentioned earlier, when you’re hiring someone from outside of Nunavut, you bring him up there.
You have to make sure this person is a certified inspector because it says it in the policy.
This inspector cannot be an inspector unless you have a certificate.
That’s why I’m making a comment on this.
We’re going to be discussing this Act.
I think it’s straightforward.
I just want to inform the departments and make sure that the people who are coming up to Nunavut to work, we have to make sure that these people don’t have criminal records and are certified inspectors.
Chairperson (interpretation): Are there any general comments.
If there are not, we’ll move on to the next question.
Mr. Arvaluk, you can raise the question that you tried raising earlier seeing that there are no more general comments.
So if you have a certified tradesman in town, this person can be assigned by your department to act on your behalf to do some inspection of particular type whatever the trade is.
I will again, give the microphone to Mr. Zebedee who was going to be responding.
Mr. Zebedee: We have made provisions for municipalities or Hamlets to take on the role of doing inspections within their Hamlet.
But we have kept the responsibility of appointing inspectors with the minister.
An inspector that is appointed has some legal requirements that they have to meet.
So we’ve left the appointment of inspectors to the minister but we have allowed wording in the proposed regulations to allow each Hamlet or municipality to take on inspection duties themselves if they have qualified people and they want to do it.
Last question. A quick small comment before my question Mr. Chairman.
It seems that when it comes to regulations, technical or otherwise, or legal, in the Department of Justice, there are no rules for let’s say saving some money, of the government budget. Everything has to be up to par, up to code or up to standard or up to whatever. The codes are there for us to follow.
Whereas in other areas of programs, like education, not so much health, but other programs, economic development, are flexible depending what we can afford.
My point Mr. Chairman, is there any way in the Department of Public Works through Bill 15, that the costs could be cut down by allocating those responsibilities locally, if there is such a person certified.
If you answer, through the regulations yes, then we will use them to get this information out to all the Hamlets that if they do wish, they can do so and you would be whatever the section or clause is, at least you would cut down on travel costs for your department.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Arvaluk.
Mr. Zebedee: When it comes to inspectors, I don’t think that we can change how an inspector is appointed.
Where we anticipate savings for the government is in the areas of trades’ people.
We have settlement maintainers that under the existing legislation cannot do work because they don’t have an electrical ticket, or a boiler ticket.
We anticipate under the new legislation, to allow those people to do restricted work in their communities, and that would save the communities and the government money.
When you talk about codes, I would just like to make an example, we are studying a new code that is out right now and the impact of the Government of Nunavut.
One section in that code we estimate will cost this government a half a million dollars a year if we go with that code.
We have decided not to implement that section of the code.
It is only a maintenance portion.
So one of the things that this new Act and regulations do, will allow us to pick and choose the best pieces for our government and for our territory.
I am a little bit more optimistic than the department.
Because I come from a smaller community and I know there are trades people in town who I believe get a few contracts once in a while.
I am not talking about the maintenance people from the Hamlet, I know most of them have been working there for 30 odd years without actual trades training, it is mostly from experience, although some of them aren’t one of the best, the mechanics and etc.
I am talking about the electrical journeymen trades’ people, pipefitting and plumbing and etc. These people are available in some of the communities. My question was very simple Mr. Chairman.
Will you be seeking or at least letting the communities and Hamlets know that you will be conducting an inspection in that particular community, do you have available in your population, in your town, a person who could do this and that with these trades’ certificates with them that would qualify them to be appointed by the minister if the community knows about it.
Mr. Zebedee: We have a provision in the regulations to allow any Hamlet or municipality to take on the responsibility of doing inspections within their boundaries. The person would have to be qualified but if the municipality wanted to and the person was available, we have allowed that in the regulations, the minister could then make the appointment, and they would be fully able to do the inspections within their communities.
All I was trying to say was, in the best of times, the community doesn’t know when the Public Works inspector is coming into town.
They just come in with no regard to how much it will cost the government to transport that person, put them in a hotel, and do the inspection for a couple of houses and he goes out.
I’m saying at least the public can participate in cost reduction programs, or at least control the costs that the government is spending by looking at options, letting the community know that we have inspections to do.
Do you have somebody there, if not, we’ll come in.
At least give them that notification.
In regards to Mr. Arvaluk’s comments, that has occurred in the previous government days.
What we’re trying to do is make an amendment to the Act so that it is more Nunavut relevant and easier to handle at the government level.
We are making a change so that the communities will be able to use the people at the community level.
Mr. Arvaluk, that’s it?
Just to touch on the journeymen specification, I know we have lots of them Nunavut traveling from different provinces, probably from the states too.
Do you have some type of tracking system, where it says, yes this individual is certified to do electrical work or plumbing.
Just to be comfortable here, something that says anybody that comes from the south has to carry with them their certificate.
Just to make sure, just to follow up on that, how does that work?
Just to make sure that yes, this is a journeyman in this area, plumbing, an electrician.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you. Mr. Zebedee.
Mr. Zebedee: When an individual comes to Nunavut to do work, they have a journeyman certificate that is issued from any jurisdiction outside of Nunavut or the Northwest Territories, we request a copy of that certificate.
We do up a letter that we send to the province or territory that they came from. We verify that that individual, along with their social insurance number is who he says he is and that he does have a license and that his license has never been suspended or revoked and then we issue them a Nunavut registration number and all dealings with that individual are based on that number after that point.
They cannot work or obtain permits until they are issued that number from us.
This is partly a general comment and a question.
There a quite a number of journeymen trades people out there in the communities.
In regards to boilers, most houses use them and we have boiler technicians in the communities.
They are people who can service the boilers and I think the Government of Nunavut should use the Hamlet offices so that they will have a list of qualified names in that community and it would save you expenses.
Do you do such things?
This issue was touched upon earlier.
If there are people with journeymen tickets at the community level, we could go through the Hamlet office if we require the services of that person for an inspection or anything else.
As long as they have a licence or a certificate, we can utilize that person who is already at the community level to provide inspection services for us.
I have no other names on my list. I would like to go clause by clause.
Technical Standards and Safety Act.
Bill 15. Clause 1.
Page 2. Clause 5.
On Clause 20.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): Just a question Mr. Chairman.
I am not quite sure about this Clause 20. (interpretation ends) It mentions wrongful act or omission of the inspector or the Chief inspector.
What method do you use to determine the negligence on the part of the inspector?
To the question.
Mr. Zebedee: Negligence would be determined by the courts.
The inspectors do not.
If somebody feels that an inspector by not doing due diligence or negligence is responsible for a loss.
They have the opportunity to address it through the courts and then the courts would then identify it.
Chairperson (interpretation): Any opposition.
Mr. Arvaluk: I didn't hear you say 41.
You went from 40 to 42.
Mr. Arvaluk: Mr. Chairman, sometimes the problem arises after 30 days of the inspection on some buildings.
For example if the inspector comes in after the area has been sealed or drywall has been installed and the inspector comes in then something was wrong with the electrical later on, after 30 days, once the building has dampened or the washer has overflowed or whatever.
Why is this appearing with the court within 30 days?
Why is it a very short, you know, time frame.
Is it to protect the inspector or what’s the purpose of only 30 days? Qujannamiik.
Mr. Zebedee: Clause 41 has nothing to do with inspections.
Clause 41 deals with after an inspector has issued, or a chief inspector has had a hearing, into these items covered under 40 or previous items. If the person does not agree with the determination of the chief inspector, we have put in a clause that he can appeal to the Nunavut Court of Justice and he may have the chief inspector’s decision overturned depending on the judgement of the Court of Justice.
Clause 47. Agreed.
Some Members: Agreed.  Chairperson (interpretation): Any opposition.
Carried. Clause 48. Agreed.
Mr. Arvaluk: I don’t want to make a general question but on the 56 on the regulations, it’s fairly lengthy.
Is this where Mr. Zebedee, is this where the minister will be making a regulation respecting the authority that can be given to the Hamlet to be an agent on your behalf to appoint not appoint but at least recommend a local inspector, certified tradesmen that the minister can appoint.
Is this where the regulation comes in?
Mr. Zebedee: In the regulations, and I have got to that point in the regulations, we have put a clause in that allows the municipalities who want to take on the function of doing inspections to request to the minister if they have a person that’s qualified, that person be appointed by the minister, to do inspections within that community.
The community would be bound by all the legal requirements that the government is bound by for the safety of its citizens.
These regulations are where we are putting that.
Will these regulations be reviewed by the committee or at least be available to the community so they will know what they are bound by.
Mr. Zebedee: All government statutes and regulations are available to any person that wants them.
We have taken the time already to have this Act translated which is one of the first pieces of legislation that I’m aware of that we’ve inherited from the Northwest Territories that has been done.
We are working to translate it so that all the communities will be able to have copies of it.
And yes, the communities will all be given the opportunity to obtain copies of the Act and regulations.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you. Anything else?
I apologise. Mr. Iqaqrialu.
My questions have already been brought up by Mr. Arvaluk.
So I’ll leave it at that.
Chairperson (interpretation): What was that again?
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): The questions that I was going to ask have already been brought up.
I’m okay now.
Chairperson (interpretation): Clause 56.
Carried. Clause 57.
Carried. Clause 58.
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): Thank you. It says here, repeal. What are they going to repeal?
Could this be clarified? Thank you.
Chairperson: Mr. Zebedee.  Mr. Zebedee: The existing legislation that covers the items dealt with by Bill 15 is the Electrical Protection Act, the Boiler Pressure Vessel Act and the Gas Protection Act.
These existing acts have been amalgamated into this one Act and we’ll be repealing them when the regulations are ready and this Act is signed into force.
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Once these acts are repealed, we won’t have any Acts for these other issues. Thank you.
Chairperson (interpretation): Mr. Zebedee.
Mr. Zebedee: Bill 15, this Act in front of you has these items in this bill.
What we’re doing is we’ve developed one Act to cover all these three things and when we’re ready, we’ll be repealing these three Acts that we’ve inherited from the Northwest Territories.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you. Clause 58.
Carried. Clause 59.
The bill as a whole.
Do you agree that the bill is ready for third reading?
The bill is now ready for third reading.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you for being at the witness table and I would like to thank the Minister and his officials Mr. Mrazek and Mr. Zebedee.
We would like to continue on with Motion 21 – 1(5).
We will deal with this motion.
Mr. Minister are you going to remain at the witness table or bring in other officials.
Hon. Peter Kattuk (interpretation): We will remain at the witness table and I am just going to bring another witness in to replace Mr. Zebedee.
Motion 21 – 1(5).
Are there any comments from the members?
I don’t have too many comments to make on this issue, but we didn’t complete the gasoline issue.
Therefore, I would ask to continue with the questioning, if there are further questions.
If not, I would like to excuse the witnesses from the table.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Irqittuq for reminding me that this is a continuation from our previous deliberation on this issue.
I don’t know how long we are going to deal with this, but are there any comments or questions.
I was just thinking that at this time, I know the issue of gasoline quality is not going to stop right away as I am sure there are going to be other communities experiencing the same problems.
So perhaps Members of the Legislative Assembly can keep deliberating on this in the future.
Perhaps I could ask the officials if they expect to see the continuation of this poor quality of gasoline.
Who is going to respond?
In response to Mr. Iqaqrialu’s question, I don’t think I understood it completely.
I was wondering if he could re-phrase his question.
Mr. Iqaqrialu could you re-phrase your question?
We expect to keep receiving correspondence from the residents of Nunavut and from our constituents.
Even if we have finished this will we have another opportunity to deal with this issue again if it arises in the future?
Hon. Peter Kattuk (interpretation): Yes, we will continue to have that opportunity even though the session is over.
On Hansard on Monday, there were some answers by Mr. Wispinski in several pages of questions and answers.
I don't mean to be critical however, it seems the members were exploring what may be the cause of the gasoline to be different this year.
However most of the answers seem to point to that we have not tested for this, we have not tested for that.
If we test all of them any kind of suspicion, then it would be very expensive.
I guess my question then is, are you, I will use this scenario for a second.
Everybody makes pizza, chilli, spaghetti, when something is missing or something is too much in terms of spice, we know. In this case we don’t know if it is too much or too little of something in the gas.
Isn't there a test that you can do or the Alberta Research Council can do to determine from several tests not a whole lot, to find out something appeared?
Or something didn't appear that is supposed to be similar to last year's contents or lack of it.
Is there anything in this area that you can determine not accidentally but you’re your substantive knowledge that something is missing or something is too much or something that is added that is new.
Mr. Wispinski cannot be here today.
In regards to Mr. Arvaluk’s comments, I know that when we add too much spice to the food that we notice if there is too much spice or not enough spice.
Along that line the results that came in with the testing of the gasoline of Nunavut, the results keep coming that gasoline is all right.
We think this laboratory can do a lot more testing for additives or lack of additives.
We still haven't received the results from the testing, but we expect to see those results anytime now.
We have sent the sample out to England.
We don't know if this gasoline has too many additives or not enough additives.
But we still haven't received the results as of yet.
I was going to ask those questions so therefore I won't be asking those questions because that researcher is not here.
But I would like to ask the minister, that the laboratory that is doing the testing overseas.
Once the results arrive according to the contents of the results, will you be releasing a press release on the results of the findings?
Why this gasoline had a bad odour and that this gasoline perhaps the colour is so brown.
So perhaps then will you be able to report why this happened.
Yes, this has been a concern of many communities, we have to inform the communities, and once we find out the results of the testing, we will inform them.