EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
They are still looking for the contract number.
(interpretation ends) If you look at the procurement activity, it could be on page 98.
In 2008, we had funding approved with Canada Infoway to embark on a project to do electronic health records for Nunavut. It was a four-year process.
This is going to be expanding our services in providing a more electronic health records management system for Nunavut.
The project will expire in 2013.
I also want to apologize to my colleagues and the witness here for not providing the contract number.
This one basically does not have a contract, but it is a question that I would like to ask in consistency with the telehealth program.
It was started during the term of the First Legislative Assembly and it was originally intended as a cost-saving measure.
To date is there any indicator as to how the telehealth program costs the government? Have you been able to calculate what cost savings have been achieved?
The member is correct that the telehealth process itself was to eventually provide a more efficient way of diagnosing some of our patients in the communities. We haven’t done an analysis on how much savings that have afforded the government at this time.
My first question is: the government’s most recent annual report on procurement activities indicates that your department awarded a $90,000 contract in 2008-09 to an individual to prepare a “Report on the State of Health in Nunavut.” It’s contract C1373 and it’s on page 93 of the procurement activity report book.
So it’s contract C1373. What did this report conclude and will you commit to tabling it in the Legislative Assembly?
Who is available to answer the question?
We are in the process of doing an inventory of all of our facilities and all of our services that we are providing in the communities.
We had hired Dr. Marshalton to travel to all communities with a couple of his colleagues to visit all of the health centres.
A report of that process is being developed right now.
We have an inventory that has been developed by Dr. Marshalton.
We are in the process of doing the report from that work as well.
This will eventually lead to the department making recommendations to the Minister of Health on the level of service and the model of health service delivery that would be provided by Nunavut, a model that we don’t currently have in Nunavut.
A number of times, there have been some commentaries made both by the Auditor General as well as members and the public that we don’t have a strategy for health.
So this is in the process of getting our homework done and hopefully, we will be developing a strategy and recommending it to the minister and the Executive Council.
At some point, the strategy will likely be tabled, but the minister would be the one to decide that.
If I understood the deputy minister correctly, he said that the report is not done.
Again, this was for the 2008-09 fiscal year and then we have a 2009-2010 fiscal year.
The work was done over a year ago and I am presuming the person was paid to do the work.
Are you saying that his work was done, it sat for a year, and eventually they will get to do a report on it?
I just wanted to clarify that we initiated that work approximately a year ago.
The work is ongoing and yes, we have received some draft reports from the work of the consultant. We also have another consultant working on the report and that report is in draft as we speak right now.
The department is currently working with consultants to review the details of recommendations in the report that are being provided, but again I must emphasize that that has to go through the normal process of cabinet as well as eventual approval.
Again I just wanted some clarification on what the deputy minister had said. I know that in the opening comments of the minister, he said that they were going to cut back on contracting and sole source contracts, and whatnot.
If I understood what the deputy minister said, they hired a consultant to do this report on the Report on the State of Health in Nunavut. That person finished their work and now they have another contractor working on finishing the report, or is there a full-time person who is a Government of Nunavut employee that is working on that report in your office?
Chairman: I think the deputy said consultant, so I would imagine it is a non-employee as well.
Hon. Tagak Curley: Thank you. I certainly don’t want to be misunderstood either. I think the goal of the government and not only our department, I think we have heard even from our Premier, we have been challenged to try and see wherever we can reduce the use of consultants.
We certainly will do that provided that we have the in-service ability.
I did indicate in my opening comment that there are times when we have no choice but to use expertise that are available in Canada for that kind of work. Health issues are very complex issues. Not many of us are able to analyze and carry out a review so that we could have a more effective case when dealing with federal government commitments or funding requirements.
I am not at all proud to say that we will no longer require any outside work. That has never been said and it is absolutely essential sometimes. We completed these reports, particularly when dealing with the short or long term health needs of Nunavut.
As we go into the complex side of a technological age, we are certainly a lot more behind than some jurisdictions.
I will let Mr. Campbell respond further to this particular detail of the contract.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Curley. (interpretation ends) Minister Curley, we are on C1373, Report on the State of Health in Nunavut, and the deputy minister explained that this contract was done and that to complete it, they’ve had to hire additional consultants.
Mr. Campbell, can you confirm that, please.
We are looking at their contract reports for 2008-09. We had started this process over a year ago. We had engaged expertise, such as Greg Marshalton and Dr. Greg Marson, to do the state of the health care in Nunavut.
That work is still ongoing.
The commitment was, as indicated here, $90,000. We have not paid that full amount of the contract as of today.
Related to that work, we also had consultants work on providing us with some recommendations and doing research across Canada and internationally on the type of health care that could be a model that we can use for Nunavut. At the same time, I have been very clear to people that we hire that we will need to Nunavutize that information once we have that info. That particular contract is not on this list.
It would be on the next list of contracts.
The minister had indicated yesterday that we will cease and desist all current contracts. There are current contracts that are not on this list that we will be reporting on again next year. We do have also some full-time staff monitoring and managing that project.
I have been personally involved in making sure that the work is being completed because I understand the challenges that are facing our Department of Health.
We have been here many times, as members would know, to try and develop some strategies. We have been asked to prepare a more comprehensive health strategy for Nunavut.
So that is where we are leading with this process. We will be providing some recommendations to the minister once that work has been completed and then the minister will take it further.
That leads to my next question. Could you give us the reason why you’re unable to perform this work within your department?
Is it because the positions or qualifications aren’t available?
If you could answer that. Thanks.
Chairman: Mr. Campbell, you’re on for the delivery of health, I understand.
The member is correct. Part of the reason is we don’t have the capacity.
We haven’t had the capacity in the department. I should indicate that at one point, our vacancy was as high as 38 percent in the department. I believe we are running at 24 percent vacancy right now.
We are doing much better.
However, the work still needs to be done.
The demands are still out there. We are still being expected to deliver on strategies. We are still asked to come forward with a recommendation on a health system delivery for Nunavut.
For that, I have to use expertise outside of the department to make sure that we deliver on the instructions that I have received from the minister to have some strategy in place.
The reason I’m asking those questions is I’m trying to, in my mind, think, as we go through this process of these contracts and whatnot, whether your department is sort of saying that you need more PYs or whether you need more specialized people in different departments.
It sounds like it’s a skill set that’s missing, not necessarily the PYs that are missing.
I appreciate the question, but we’re not dealing with the vacancy issue right now.
The deputy minister indicated that it’s due to the shortage of particularly the senior level of personnel in our department in order to get this important work done, which is really quite critical not only to our cabinet but also we need that baseline information for the state of health in Nunavut. That is critically quite important.
I can assure the member that it’s something that my colleagues not only in the cabinet but FMB as well continue to look at ways to improve delivery and so on.
We are just anxious to get this report done so that we can actually see where it’s going. At the moment, I don’t want to tie it up with a particular number of positions.
This and that position being vacant, we’re doing every possible effort in the department to try and fill the senior level positions in our department.
I indicated yesterday that the average amount of time required to fill a position, from an administration position to the executive level and whatnot, takes six months. In most cases, it is because the process is not that easy.
From what I understood in your earlier comments, you’re not in the business of writing reports and drafting policies, really, because you’re focused on delivering health.
That’s why you had to hire outside contractors for this purpose.
So that’s the direction, I believe, we were going.
Again I’m looking at it broader than just Health and Social Services. I’m thinking towards some of the stuff that we’re going to be doing probably in September when the Auditor General is here, going through the HR evaluation and the audit in terms of why are we not filling human resource positions and why are we not able to staff.
It sounds like what the deputy minister was saying is that we have the PYs, but we don’t have anyone hired in the position to do the specialized stuff, to be able to write the reports properly or whatever that needs to be done to be able to access and provide the services.
Again, if we’re ever going to work toward Article 23 and having people from Nunavut and Inuit in there, we need to look outside of just fixing it. I guess that’s the other thing that I’m trying to get a grasp of.
My personal thinking, in some departments, is that you’re pushing so hard to do and meet the mandate of what your department is supposed to do that there are so many vacant positions.
I can see why sometimes a sole source contract is so much better than going through the whole process because you need that done right away, you’ve got so many things on the go and you need to get things done.
I’m looking at a broader picture to see, as people who decide, what we can do to help out the department.
That’s where my angle is coming. I don’t know if the minister wants to comment on that. That’s not really a question, but I do have more questions.
Hon. Tagak Curley: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity.
I appreciate the member.
I think you are beginning to see the picture of how complex the issue is that the health department is mandated with.
With respect to the state of health, it’s really quite critical that we have a state of the conditions or a report that has assessed other jurisdictions as well. I can assure the member that this is not just in-house because this one is so complex that we are interested not only in our own jurisdiction but we want to see other jurisdictions.
The members have been asking whether we are getting value for the money we have been using and making the best use of the best practices in other jurisdictions. That is happening with this particular report.
I had to sign on to a travel requirement.
They wanted to look at Greenland, for instance, and how they deliver to isolated communities and carry out their health program.
I think that is going to be useful information not only for the cabinet but as well as for the Members of the House.
I’ll leave it at that and I appreciate the comment that he made.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Curley. Mr. Elliott.
The government’s two most recent annual reports on procurement activities indicates that your department awarded over $240,000 in contracts to a single individual to provide communications consulting and to act as your department’s director of communications.
Why can’t your department hire a full-time person to perform this function?
I was going to give out the contract numbers. There are quite a few contract numbers. There are: C173, C185, C190, C196, C199, C1345, so there are quite a few.
Chairman: It adds up to $240,000 according to the member.
Mr. Campbell: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for that question.
We have been having a difficult time as a department and I can attest, across the government, that finding qualified directors of communications to work in departments, one of the issues that we are facing is the payment of the amount or the salary level that we are paying for expertise at that level.
There are high competitions for communication consultants.
With that being said, just to clarify again, the $240,000 accumulated total is an amount that was committed under the contract. We’re still going to figure out how much we actually spent on that particular contract.
The individual did work for the department.
We have since hired a communications specialist. We are still in the process of recruiting for a director of communications for the department.
That position remains vacant; the communications specialist right now is acting as the director of communications.
Chairman: From my understanding, it was a request for proposals that you went through to hire the individual.
Thank you for that explanation. I almost think we should talk to the HR minister to come up with buttons that say “I’m a Government of Nunavut employee” that they can wear because I met this individual and thought she was a GN employee, or maybe we should give out “I’m a Contractor” buttons so that we know the difference of whether they are a contractor or GN employee.
I think at this time, Mr. Chairman, I will wait and let other members ask questions.
We are in department three and we have five other departments to go.
Which other member would like to ask questions on health? Are there any other questions on health?
I do not see any further arms other than Mr. Elliott again. Mr. Elliott.
I just didn’t want to be accused of asking all of the questions.
Contract C1410, the government’s most recent annual report on procurement activities indicates that your department awarded a $127,265 sole source contract in 2008-09 to an individual to provide Territorial Health Access Fund program leadership services.
What did this contract achieve and why couldn’t someone within your department perform that work?
Mr. Campbell: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just going back to my answer yesterday, I believe this was the same question that was asked, we did hire a consultant first of all to provide some leadership around the THAF file.
As members know, THAF is $21 million over five years. When I joined the department three years ago, we had spent about half a million dollars of that target.
I wanted to develop a strategy to aggressively identify some strategic projects that could be done under health to use up some of that money. So the person that we have consulted provided that financial analysis and financial reporting of the task itself on that.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Are there any further questions? Mr. Elliott.
Mr. Elliott: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was just going through because the question wasn’t asked yesterday. The question that was asked yesterday was on C1483 and C201, which was a sole source contract for $344,000 relating to the Territorial Health Access Fund.
This one was a separate one to another individual and it just sort of says it’s for “THAF Program Leadership Services.”
This one is specifically for the financial end of it.
Mr. Campbell: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do apologize, Mr. Chairman, but can I get that number again and the page number, please, and then I can respond properly.
Chairman: Mr. Elliott, can you do the bingo announcer thing again? Mr. Elliott.
Mr. Elliott: The one that I was asking for today is actually on page 94 of the procurement book. It is contract C1410.
It is titled, Territory Health Access Fund program leadership services. Thank you.
Chairman: Page 94 of the big book and it’s the item number was identified, awaiting confirmation from the deputy. Oh, we’ve got bingo. Mr. Campbell.  Mr. Campbell: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Just to continue with my answer, this person was hired as well to provide some ongoing leadership on that file. It was a person that we had travelling into the different regions to assist with the preparation of some of their financial auditing as well as acting, in one case, as a regional director. As well, this person was developing some of the proposals that would be considered under the THAF funding program.
I have some questions in terms of the contracts that you do. The $209,000 for a contract like this, you said that they travel around the different communities and consult, and whatnot.
Does the Government of Nunavut, with a contract that large, cover the airfare for that person and also their hotel and per diems or is this included within the contract?
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Elliott. (interpretation ends) The question is: is it all-comprehensive, all-inclusive package or is it just basic salary? Mr. Campbell.
Mr. Campbell: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Some of the contracts vary from consultant to consultant.
In some cases, it’s all-inclusive. The contractor or consultant would look after their own arrangements and look after their own meals, accommodations, and travel to the communities.
In some cases, we would pick up some of the accommodations. In some cases, we would pick up the travel to the communities.
So depending on the specific arrangement with the contractor, there are different arrangements that are made.
The question was: on this particular contract, is it all-inclusive or is it not?
I don’t know the particulars, but I can certainly provide that information to the member.
Chairman: We have a commitment. Mr. Elliott.
I was just going to comment.
With some of the answers that we’ve gotten in terms of people or ministers not having the information and the ability to answer the questions with contracts, I’m not quite sure why they wouldn’t, knowing that when we left session before that we would be asking specific questions within this book.
To me, I would hope that all ministers would have sort of told their deputy ministers and people below them that they need to have the contracts and the information available because regular members would be asking questions.
So I don’t know sometimes whether we can accept answers like that, but I guess we will have to because we don’t have the answer today.
My next question is: in terms of sole source contracts and what we were told about sole source contracts, it’s up to the deputy minister and doesn’t involve CGS with how it works. I hope I have it correct today; I know I was corrected yesterday.
So in terms of all of these sole source contracts that have been given out, it would have been you, as the deputy minister, who would have been signing off on these?
The answer is yes, I would be the one signing off on the sole source contracts, but there is a process leading up to my signature on that contract.
The initiator of the contract makes recommendations to their manager and then that manager makes recommendations to their director. The director makes recommendations to the ADM and then the ADM makes recommendations to me whether to sign off, whether the sole source is fully justified or if there is enough justification to proceed with the sole source.
So there are checks and balances along the way at various points.
The contract itself could be denied, but at the end of the day, the member is correct that the deputy minister does sign off on the sole source contracts.
The next question I was trying to get at… I don’t know. Sometimes when I ask questions, it seems like people become offended or upset and think I’m after certain things or getting to something.
To me, I think, as a former GN employee, I remember, in my position, being frustrated with some of the things and the capabilities of what I had and what I couldn’t do.
I guess the deputy minister could answer or couldn’t answer this question, but as the person who is signing… .
If we, as the Legislative Assembly or cabinet, are going to help out, I know you were willing to tell us, sort of, when we were doing budgeting how frustrating it is to provide the level and quality of care that we give to Nunavummiut all across the territory with the limited funds that we have. I guess again, if you could share with me.
I’m trying to get a picture of when you’re doing and you’re trying to hire people and you’re trying to get the work done and you’ve got to go through the contract process, what makes you go to sole sourcing.
The reason I’m asking that is because if things are changing within in department, if you’re too overburdened and if things are too stressful, then nothing is going to change, and then in a year, we will be looking at a whole bunch of more sole source contracts. So if you could just help me out with that, it would be great.
I think the member is expressing a concern that there are far too many sole sources for this particular department than we realized.
I can point to any page and look at the Tobacco Reduction Strategy, “sole sourced.”
We understand that there are some immediate things that have to be taken care of and some things we can plan.
So Minister Curley, I will give you your explanation. (interpretation) Thank you.
Hon. Tagak Curley: I’m not sure which one I am going to respond to now.
I think there has to be some guidance from you to… I think the Rules of the House are clear that we are not to address specifically, with respect to parliamentary reference, to whether I should address that as he was you or Mr. Elliott for that matter.
I just want a bit of a clarification on that.
I think that if we had known that every item in the… it would probably help, when the motion was introduced, to table a report that every item, line by line, was going to be asked a question rather than the principle of it and so on.
In view of time, I think our deputies and staff continue to try and respond to that from the principle of the contract and the reason behind it, the intent of the contract, and what exactly was the purpose of it.
To try and find out exactly the details of it is sometimes very complex with the numbers.
We have indicated in the House in my opening remarks that we are not satisfied with the number of contracts the department issued.
I think that position is clear.
This has been a long-term practice of the government.
It’s like trying to break down a tradition that has become pretty well entrenched in some cases, but we are taking steps to climb down.
We have directions all the way from the Premier to cut down on sole sourcing and whatnot or any kind of mode of the contracts that are available to the departments through our contracting administration guidelines.
We will adhere to those.
In order to specifically address the member’s question, we will not refuse to answer a question. If it takes a bit of time to provide a response, we will do that.