EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Other than that, I don’t have too much more than that as far as general comments.
Again, basically with it being up there, I wish it was the highest and look forward to some more questions as we go through the detail.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Tootoo. I have no more names for general comments at this time.
Going to the Capital Estimates.
Page 9-4.
Page 9-5, 9-6, 9-7, any questions?
There’s an agreement in some of the pages that we passed.
In the minister’s comments about the five year capital, under 9-6, can I ask a question on page 9-6?
If I’m able to ask a question, it says in 2003/2004 and 2004 up to 2008, I believe in that time, in the other community that I represent, Qikiqtarjuaq was supposed to get an addition to its school.
But in 9-6, there’s nothing for Qikiqtarjuaq.
I just wonder why that is?
Like I said, just before I answered the question, if you don’t mind Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the members for their opening comments and I just want to let you know that according to the comments that I have heard, that we will be dealing with the main estimates in February or March but I did not agree with the member from Uqqummiut that he figured that we did not include some things that the members have wished for.
Just to let him know that is not the case.
And for the question that he just posed to me about Qikiqtarjuaq addition to the school, what we do is we always try to make sure that we are doing our very best to address priorities on capital and making additions and new schools for the communities that need it.
We will keep in mind the communities that are in need most before we go on to the other communities.
Sometimes what we do is, whenever there is some funding that comes earlier then we try to get them finished and I just want to tell the member that I will keep the member informed about the communities that he had concerns about.
Thank you for the clarification and I want to apologize but you are not allowed to say the Minister is not telling the truth.
Maybe because I’m such an Inuk, I’m sorry, and I apologize for saying the Minister was not telling the truth.
We’re just looking at the Capital Estimates at this time, we’re allowed to ask questions in this House, and we are allowed to approach the ministers in their offices if we have any questions, whether it might be here in Iqaluit or out there in the public.
I have been asking for a while not in this House but elsewhere whether Qikiqtarjuaq would be considered. Because Qikiqtarjuaq, I feel like I was told that there were plans in place for the addition of the school and I don’t see it in the Capital Estimates.
That is why I asked the question. Perhaps there will be plans for before 2008 and I would like to apologize to the Minister.
I want to be able to receive accurate information so I don’t do any name calling and I apologize. But for the community of Clyde River, I would like to thank the Minister and his officials for being able to provide Clyde River with an addition to the school and to thank him for Clyde River being included in the detail of the Capital Estimates.
What we are doing is we realize that Qikiqtarjuaq has needs too, but there are also other communities that are in need and we will not forget about Qikiqtarjuaq and we will keep a close eye on the Clyde River school addition.
Chairperson (interpretation): Anything else, Mr. Iqaqrialu?
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): On page 9-6 on Qikiqtaaluk Region, at the bottom it’s Pond Inlet Ulaajuk School addition and if you turn to page 3-20, in the schedule, under Pond Inlet, for the Ulaajuk School addition and it’s planned to 2008.
My question is about the adult education in Pond Inlet; are there any plans in place for the adult education centre in Pond Inlet?
Are they going to move it?
Or is there going to be a new Adult Education Centre in Pond Inlet?
Yes, it’s the same kind of question as Mr. Iqaqrialu’s question in regards to the adult education centre in Pond Inlet.
Yes, we realize that it has to be looked at or replaced or expanded or added on to.
But we will consider it in the future.
As the minister indicated in his opening comments, the challenges faced in education, especially in the capital area even with this capital budget, I think they’re probably bigger than that otherwise they would all be solved in this capital budget.
Looking at the projects that he has listed in here, if you use, you know we’re on 9-6, or 7, it lists all of them.
The minister had indicated also that they’re working towards redoing their or they’re always working on their capital plan.
Can the minister give us an indication of what criteria they used in establishing the priorities of what projects they’re dealing with and how they get put on there as opposed to some other projects that may not?
Which ones…how are the priorities set and what criteria are used?
Hon. Peter Kilabuk (interpretation): I apologise Mr. Chairman, yes in the opening comments, when I mentioned the issue of priorities, the way we set our priorities - we look at the condition of the school or the building and how they utilize the school or what the capacity of the school is.
It also includes what kind of subjects the community would like to deliver.
It’s not stated here but at this time we’re starting to initiate the discussions but today I cannot tell you how it’s going to end up.
But by working together, we can consider or discuss the matter of how we can better utilize these facilities.
Mr. Chairman, I just wondered if the minister could provide members with what their criteria are.
I don’t expect him to have it right now but if that’s something that he could provide so that when other members go back and they have questions why didn’t this make it on there, we would we have an idea according to the criteria. We should have them and let the constituents know possibly why and why not certain things have been done.
I was wondering if the minister could provide that in the near future to the members.
When we look at standards and criteria to allocate funding for the schools we have to look at the safety aspects and health aspects of the school.
But in regards to the member’s question on standards and criteria those can be found on our government website.
I didn’t catch on, and I’m sure it’s not all of the criteria that the minister mentioned that they used in developing their list.
I’m just wondering if or how much of a role or factor the idea of forced growth and looking at the number of students in a community and how much the forecasting and projecting for student enrolment are.
What type of factor does that play in priority of projects?
We look at the number of students whether the school is too small for the students, we look at forced growth, and we determine whether they need a new school or not but annually the number of students increase and we forecast the forced growth.
One of the reasons, not the only reason; over the last three years there have been different community consultations on different issues and I remember visiting, I don’t know if it was Clyde River or Broughton Island. But in that case they had a just put up a couple of walls in the hallway, just to close off a hallway space to make a classroom. One of the other classrooms they were using was an old storage room with no windows and no ventilation since it was designed to be a storage room, and it was being used as a classroom.
And on the same hand here, and I know it’s in the capital plan right now and design stage this year for the Aqsaarnit middle school, that was designed to hold three grade levels, that was the plan, that it was supposed to hold three grade levels. But right from day one, the day it opened it wasn’t big enough to handle what it was supposed to handle, I guess in hindsight that was done.
But looking at what the demands are, what the needs are, you know it probably would’ve been heck of a lot cheaper at the time to put the addition or add the extra classrooms necessary at that time, than it would be, now we have to go back go through the whole process again.
Just looking at these additions, new schools, and the criteria that they are looking at in determining the priorities, you know like a commitment from the Minister that these types of things are you know taken as a major factor.
Because you know in this case, you know if you look it over the next six it’s going to be about $8 million dollars add on to this middle school here. If that would have been done up front maybe that amount could have been cut in half and that could have been $4 million dollars that we could have spent somewhere else.
So I’m just wondering if I could get an indication from the Minister as to take a look at these factors and I know that over the 4 or 5 years that there has been all kinds of turnover and capacity problems throughout not only the Department of Education but all the departments.
Sometimes it seems like they’re just doing more crisis management instead of having the time to do that pro-active planning to try and make the best use of the dollars that we have.
That old saying is maybe if you spend a little bit more now but it’s going to save you money in the long run, I’m just wondering if they’ll take that type of approach in looking at projects that come up from here on in?
Yes, for the middle school in Iqaluit, I know that’s one of the reasons why the problem occurred with the shortage of space.
For the planning of that particular school, they had funding but the Federal Government cut back the funding so we had to take some of the classrooms out because the Federal Government had cut back on the budget for the middle school.
But also I would like to inform my colleague that the discussions, through the discussions we will keep updating you.
Page 9-5.
Total headquarters, $300 thousand.
Mr. Chairman, Just on that one page I know other members are going to ask question and the other pages that are in there.
Just looking at the projects that they have here and according to the Minister’s opening comments, is that a number of these are ongoing projects, either following through with the planning stage, construction stage, and completion stage.
Can the Minister indicate if any of these projects are not new projects in here, if any of them have gone over what was initially budgeted for projects and some of the reasoning which ones they were and why.
Hon. Peter Kilabuk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and also my colleague.
The information that we have started from two years ago, I will have to explain some of the details; it would take too long here if I give you the details here.
So I would have to reply to you in another form than this.
Mr. Chairman, if the list is too long I’d be worried too if there are a lot of projects that have gone over budget.
I think that’s something I wouldn’t mind knowing and I’m sure all members wouldn’t mind knowing.
If we’re budgeting a certain amount of projects and they’re continually coming in over and maybe we’re not doing something right and we need to know why. That’s what I’m looking at is why if these things are coming in over budget on a regular basis, what’s causing that? Is there something that we can do to try and fix that problem so we’re doing some more accurate budgeting?
First of all I would like to apologize.
I misunderstood your question Mr. Tootoo.
We have no projects that went over budget.
Although there seems to be a substantial change but the year we allocate funds if the estimate is good or if the project is good so they would use different funding to complete it.
But for some smaller projects we have over expended but there are no over expenditures on the bigger projects.
Mr Chairman, I’ll make a reference if I recall there was a project for a new school in Arviat that initially came in just under 11 million dollars and now it’s up over $14 millions dollars.
Those are the kind of things that we initially planned $11 million and it’s coming in at 14 now.
Why is that and if it’s the only instance where that happened?
Yes, the change from the original allocation there has been a retrofit or something had to be done in that school so that’s why the price had gone up.
Maybe in that case if the minister could provide a little briefing whether it be on in paper.
I don’t need it right now.
If they just got it it’s the one that’s increased from 11 to 14 and this is why that’s been done; if he could provide that information to us that’ll be great.
Also are there any other projects out there that same thing happened to for whatever reason? I’m not saying that they’re not appropriate.
I just wouldn’t mind knowing.
That will help us when we are looking at it to say, is it adequate?
Take this into consideration or take that into consideration so that we’re not looking at shortfalls.
So in the future we make sure that as much as possible, up front, that these projects are adequate allocations to complete them.
Hon. Peter Kilabuk (interpretation): Mr. Chairman, if it’s okay with you, I’d like Mr. Rich, my Deputy to respond to the member’s question.
We manage the projects in an overall envelope.
Part of the change reflects the fact that the initial budget amounts are set before the design is done. So we’ve projected out for several years through the design and then the tendering and then the completion phase.
Obviously the budget is refined once we have the final design in consultation with the community and the District Education Authority and then once the tender is done.
Over the last couple of years, the track record of working with Public Works on the estimates phase, on the tendering stage, has gotten very good.
There are of course year to year changes based on how many people tender for the project and how competitive the tendering is.
We’ve been very successful on an annual basis in managing the overall budget for all of the projects.
In some projects there may be a cost savings.
In other projects, there may be unanticipated shipping costs or whatever.
But we’ve managed to always come in on the total capital budget.
We’ve done that without delaying projects and we’ve done that without shortchanging any projects.
On a project by project basis there will be changes that come about because of that very process that goes through.
Weather conditions can affect things.
And you’re quite right about that.
So as I’ve said, we’ve been very successful overall in managing the projects, so there have been no shortfalls on the overall capital budget and the projects have been completed.
Mr. Chairman, I thank the Deputy for his answer.
It raises a question.
I guess he’d indicated that the initial allocation is done prior to the design phase being completed.
Part of that design phase, I interpret from his response, was consultation with the District Education Authority and the community.
What exactly does that entail?
If he could briefly outline what that entails and then what it’s used for and what the costs are?
If he could explain that to me.
After it’s been recognised as to how much it will be we have to have discussions with the District Education Authority in the community as to what requests they have.
Sometimes that’s when the increase occurs.
But I want Mr. Levy to give more details as to exactly what it is.
When we first determine a project which we would call I guess the first phase, is the planning, we use the standards and criteria that the minister mentioned, which certainly all the MLAs can see.
It is on the website.
That tells us that by the number of students and what grades they’re in, what instructional phase they are eligible for as far as the entire school. So, that ensures that it’s equitable for every community in Nunavut that everybody gets the same standards and criteria.
The planning committee is created within the community and the District Education Authority has the lead on that and they select the members of the District Education Authority.
Usually some school staff and sometimes even community members if that’s their choice.
We look at the programs that are currently offered in the schools as well as programs that aren’t offered because the school doesn’t have the type of space that is required and then through design there can be some kind of trade off, as long as the overall space is not changed.
For example they may want to focus on the arts program and want to take one of their classrooms and one perhaps smaller and another larger and have perhaps music as a program.
So as we do that and the District Education Authority again is the lead, and at that time we are working with the architect and then we design the building.
As we’re doing that our estimating gets finer and finer, so we start with an original estimate and we’re cautious not to go over that but as the building gets better described the estimates get refined till we hope by the time we have the tender ready documents, documents that each construction company can bid on, then we have a pretty good idea of what the building will cost.
Mr. Levy indicated that once they have their consultations with the community, the District Education Authority, I imagine the communities are involved at some level then they go and design a building.
Does The District Education Authority or the community have any input as to design, the actual design of the building, this is what we want it to look like, or is it just the interior, the number of classrooms, or number of square footage that they have any control over?
The District Education Authority has the say as to what they would like to see. In the recent opening in Pond Inlet and Clyde River the new schools, in Clyde River, we were shown where the community requested to have a meeting room where it can be used by the public because that was the demand of the community. So we were given a tour and that was incorporated into the new school that they built.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. that’s good to hear and hopefully the coming projects, not only here in Iqaluit, in all communities the District Education Authority will have some very good opportunity and some strong input to what the overall projects are going to look like and how the space is going to be used.
As in any case the people that are on the ground and dealing with it on a day-to-day basis, they are best ones that know how to make use of what they have and what they need.
I’m sure that all the District Education Authorities look forward to having that input in the future.
Just another question, when it comes to class space and class sizes, classroom sizes to a different topic here, I don’t want to get confused.
Is there any criteria used in determining like how many pupils or how many students per square foot in the classrooms, like a standard that they should be at?
The procedure that we use is for the classrooms we consider the number of students for a classroom as to how big it should be.
We don’t use the minimum space that is in the procedures.
I don’t know if I understood the Minister’s response, I guess he said they look at the number of students and setting how big a classroom should be so I guess based on that is there a certain square footage per student that should be in how they determine how big the classrooms are going to be?
I guess that’s what I’m looking at.
I guess I’ll try and be clearer to my colleague.
Right now, if we were to look at 22 students, then that equals minimum 17 square metres for the criteria that’s being used now.
Mr. Chairman, I’ll ask specifically to here and then maybe in general for other locations but given the age of the school like the Nakasuk and Inuksuk High School here, you know they’re over 30 years old. It’s my understanding that when they were initially designed they were probably designed to hold maybe 17 students in them and now some of them you know at times holds 30, between 25 and 30 students in them.
So, I’m just wondering if that falls in the criteria or is that something that this department has taken a look at.
The criteria that we use to renovate schools are the same criteria on the size of the classrooms and considering the number of students here in Iqaluit.
Chairperson (interpretation): I have a list of names one person can ask for 10 minutes.
That’ll be your last question Mr. Tootoo.
Mr. Tootoo: I can’t see my clock, I covered it up on purpose Mr. Chairman.
I guess just to follow up on this. Are there a maximum number of students based on the class size that the department would be considered before it becomes a health and safety issue?
Whether it be air quality or just in case of a fire or just the numbers in there, is they’re any maximum, is the maximum number of students per classroom set for the classrooms that we have and you know through that process ensure all our classrooms are under that maximum?
Yes, but we hardly ever reach the maximum but I’ll let Mr. Levy elaborate more on this.
Mr. Levy: Yes, to answer that question, we’ve been asked that in many communities.
Is there a danger point for a number of students?
We’ve checked with Health and Safety and the fire marshal.
But that number would be in the high 30s in a 70 metre classroom.
It would probably be 40 students.
So we don’t reach it.
I should just mention for the member though that the standards and criteria again, that is posted on the website, defines every instructional space in the schools and the number of students and the eligibility by both number and grade, so it would tell you exactly the number of students per classroom as well as shop areas and libraries and science labs etc.
First I would like to ask you Mr. Chairman, are we at 9-5?
Because I would like to ask questions in regards to 9-8.
I would like to ask you what page we’re on Mr. Chairman.
Chairperson (interpretation): We’re still under Corporate Services, under $300 thousand dollars.
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): 9-5, $23 million 985 thousand dollars is the total of these, so because it’s a whole total, so we can’t just agree, Qikiqtaaluk, Kivalliq, Kitikmeot, if we can go through those.
That’s what I’m asking you.
Chairperson (interpretation): At this time we’re on 9-6, total head quarters, region, $300 thousand dollars.
And we haven’t gone anywhere.
Corporate Services, total head quarters region, $300 thousand dollars.
I’m lost.
Chairperson (interpretation): 9-6.
Page 9-6. Number 9-6, the first line, where it states Corporate Services.
Total head quarters region, $300 thousand dollars.
That’s where we’re at.
Baffin Region, under Baffin, under 9-6, Qikiqtaaluk Region, to 9-7, total Qikiqtaaluk Region, $7 million 159 thousand dollars.
Still under 9-7, under Kivalliq Region, $11 million 953 thousand dollars.
To use Arviat as an example, because there will be a lot of designs for different schools.
The $605 thousand dollars; is it finished for design?
For this year, $7 million, 303 thousand dollars, and for 2005, $6 million 555 thousand, because in the communities that we travel to, the cultural instruction, the spaces for cultural instruction; there is hardly anything.
They’re assigned a room to sew skins but there has been concerns that the skin or if they are going to sew skins and according to some designs some principals, especially who come up from the south, they have no concern at all what so ever about cultural teaching.
I can use Chesterfield Inlet as an example, the future design of the schools.
I will wait till later for my question.
Maybe I will attempt to answer his question after he finishes.
Chairperson (interpretation): Maybe you can proceed.
The designs of the schools, they’re going to have the shop or cooking classes or kitchen or other where the classrooms will be used for specific instructions but the designs normally don’t have any kind of reservation for the Inuit cultural items to be taught and we are being asked to instruct in Inuktitut but they’re not in that design.
Yes, Mr. Chairman, to go back to what I said earlier that the District Education Authority usually spearhead the designs and he said he was just using Arviat as an example. I said earlier in Clyde River there was a room where people can meet even though it’s not completed but in Arviat one of the things that they really pushed for was they wanted a room to be used where they can make things out of pelts, out of skins.
So that has been taken into consideration.