EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
We are talking about Community Government and Transportation. The $13 million that is given to the Hamlets please make sure that there are no misunderstandings in there.
Could we move on now?
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask, once again, whether her staff that go to the communities, does she see the results of the work done in the Hamlets.
Perhaps the Minister does not understand what is going on in the communities, so we need continuous visits from her Department.
So, I would like to ask whether they achieve results during those visits.
The Hamlets and the Mayors, I know them pretty well and we have a good working relationship.
We have different reasons why some staff have to go to those communities.
But we still have to go into the communities to monitor how these Hamlets are operating.
I do not know exactly why what he is getting at; perhaps I can get more information from the Hamlets and find out exactly why our staff was going to the communities.
Perhaps it would be better if I talk to the member in his office.
The Departmental staff go into the communities.
The Departmental staff, is there enough trust in your staff to do their jobs?
Hon. Manitok Thompson (interpretation): What staff are you talking about?
Which staff, what situation are you talking about?
The issues that are brought forward from the communities, I try to deal with it in a timely manner.
But I do not know what he is talking about.
Chairperson (interpretation): Detail of expenditures, Total Operations and Maintenance, $72 million, 23 thousand, Agreed?
Chairperson (interpretation): Are you agreed that we have concluded the Main Estimates for the Department?
We will take a break while they set up, 5-minute break.
We will take a 5-minute break while they are setting up. …
>>Committee recessed at 19:04 p.m. and resumed at 19:13 p.m.
Chairperson (Mr. Iqaqrialu) (interpretation): Thank you for coming back.
We can now resume the meeting.
Do we have opening comments from the Minister of Public Works and Services?
Hon. Peter Kattuk (interpretation): Yes I do.
I will then go into my speaking notes and I’ll be speaking in English.
(interpretation ends) Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to make some opening remarks for the 2003/2004 main estimates and business plan for the Department of Public Works and Services.
For 2003/2004, Public Works and Services, has a target budget of $60.9 million dollars for Operations and Maintenance and $10.7 million for capital projects.
The responsibility of systems development was transferred from the Department of Finance to our Informatics Division.
This increased our Operations and Maintenance by $1.6 million dollars from 2002/2003.
Mr. Chairman, funded positions have increased from $200 to 201.
This reflects the transfer of two positions to the Hamlet of Kugluktuk under the New Community Management Agreement, and the transfer of three positions from the Department of Finance.
With a budget of $8.8 million dollars, the directorate provides advice, assistance, planning and implementation of human resources, finance and policy functions for the department.
While we have made some progress in increasing Inuit employment numbers, the staffing of highly technical positions in our Technical Services Division, and Informatics Division remains a challenge.
$5.3 million dollars is dedicated to the Technical Services Division for the planning, design and project management services for client departments.
This division assists in identifying long term capital requirements and operations guidelines and develops government wide technical standards for infrastructure.
The Operations Division manages the Government of Nunavut’s inventory of owned and leased facilities and the allocation of office space.
They ensure existing and planned facilities comply with mechanical and electrical codes and standards.
This division also purchases goods and administers the Eastern Arctic Sealift on behalf of the Government of Nunavut.
They have been allocated $31.6 million dollars.
In consultation with clients, the Operations Division develops implements and monitors contracting policy and procedures including the Nunavummi Nangminiqaqtunik Ikajutti Policy (NNI) and develops contracting guidelines and procedures.
$15.2 million dollars has been dedicated to the Informatics Division to provide the Government of Nunavut with voice communications services, a shared source of development, operations and support for computer hardware and software applications systems.
Mr. Chairman, for 2003/2004, the Petroleum Products Division has been allocated 9.6 million dollars in capital funding to upgrade the bulk fuel storage facilities in Nunavut communities.
An additional $1 million dollars has been allocated, Mr. Chairman, for much needed upgrades to Government of Nunavut facilities.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to highlight some recent accomplishments of the Department of Public Works and Services.
An in-depth review of the NNI policy was conducted in collaboration with Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated.
The Technical Standards and Safety Act was developed to replace several Protection Acts.
A Community Transfer Agreement was signed with the Community of Kugluktuk, which transfers the responsibility of the maintenance of Government of Nunavut buildings to that community.
We recently signed new contracts for the supply and transportation of petroleum products to Nunavut communities.
Contracts have been awarded for the dry cargo services for Baffin and Kivalliq communities.
Mr. Chairman, my department has been proactive in its activities in 2002/2003.
We will continue to do so in future as we strive to be more efficient in our operations and services we provide to our clients.
Does the Chairman of the Standing Committee on CESD have any Opening Comments?
As Chairman of the Standing Committee on Community Empowerment and Sustainable Development, I am pleased to be able to provide Opening Comments as we begin the review of the 2003-2004 Main Estimates and the 2003-2004 Business Plan of the Department of Public Works and Services.
Mr. Chairman, the Standing Committee has had the opportunity to meet with the Minister of Public Works and Services and has carefully reviewed the Department’s Main Estimates and Business Plan.
Members remain concerned as to the final cost of the Government of Nunavut of the bad gas situation.
It is not clear what the total cost was to test the fuel, reduce the price of the bad gas until it could be removed, remove the bad gas, and provide compensation for damage to engines.
In addition, Members noted that the remaining bad gas that was removed was sold to a refinery in New Jersey.
The Committee would wish to know how much was recovered through this sale.
It is important that these costs be accurately presented.
Mr. Chairman, Members are concerned that boiler inspections are not being done as often as they should be.
It is not clear who is responsible for ensuring that boilers receive their yearly inspections.
Mr. Chairman, Members noted the recent award of dry cargo contracts in the Baffin and Kivalliq.
Members are concerned that private companies will face increased costs due to the change in contract to government and to the private sector with the Minister after the shipping season.
Mr. Chairman, Members are concerned that the Nunavummi Nangminiqaqtunik Ikajuuti policy is not being applied consistently.
The Committee would like increased transparency as to who has been awarded the contracts and the value of those contracts.
The Committee is concerned that the policy is not fulfilling its goal and supporting Northern businesses.
The Committee is looking forward to the tabling of the 2001-2002 Annual Review of the Nunavummi Nangminiqaqtunik Ikajuuti Policy by the Government of Nunavut/NTI Nunavummi Nangminiqaqtunik Ikajuuti Policy Review Committee.
Mr. Chairman, Members noted that responsibility for the Petroleum Products Division will be transferring from the Department of Public Works to the Qulliq Energy Corporation in the coming year.
The Committee looks forward to receiving regular updates as to the status of that transition.
In addition, Members understand that PPD positions will be moving to Baker Lake and stress that a training program be developed to ensure that local people can be hired into those highly technical positions.
Mr. Chairman, Members continue to advocate for trades training across Nunavut.
The Committee strongly urges the Minister to work in cooperation with the Department of Education and Community Government and Transportation as well as the Nunavut Housing Corporation to best utilize existing funds for training programs.
Mr. Chairman, Members noted that certain funding for the Informatics Services Branch has been transferred from the Department of Finance to the Department of Public Works and Services.
The Committee urges the department to exercise caution in ensuring that IT costs are kept under control.
Members recognize that tens of millions of dollars have already been spent in this area.
Mr. Chairman, that concludes my comment on the Main Estimates of the Department of Public Works and Services.
Are we going to be inviting witnesses, Minister Kattuk?
Are you going to have witnesses? Okay then.
You can proceed to the Witness Table.
Minister, if you would introduce your witnesses please?
I’m sure everybody knows our Deputy Minister, Ross Mrazek.
On my left, we have Patrick Galbraith.
Chairperson (interpretation): Are you going to be inviting anybody else to come to the witness table at times.
Hon. Peter Kattuk (interpretation): Also in the observer seats, we have Petroleum Products Division, Roy Green and Susan.
Chairperson (interpretation): We can then go on to general comments which will be for ten minutes.
I hope I won’t go ten minutes.
I’ll try to keep my comments brief and give my colleague David, a break if he wants it.
My opening comments are very brief in regards to the bad gas situation and now a looming, probably, maybe, we’re not sure, situation with the P-50 heating fuel.
And my only comments and these are just comments, Minister that I’m hoping through all of this we’re learning.
And we’re still learning.
Hopefully some day the Department of Public Works, will find somebody, maybe on a temporary basis from July to November to do quality control on these products that we’re buying off shore in regards to gasoline and home heating fuel and diesel and whatever else.
I understand today, that we have a bad product, I don’t want to say we do, there could be, we have a suspect product in Cape Dorset and Repulse Bay, and the product is going to cost us millions more.
I know the Finance Minister today is under severe pressure to balance the budget and the last thing we need is another $4 or 5 million dollars fiasco in a couple of communities.
What I’m getting to in the bad gas situation and that one yes, I’ll accept.
There may be a couple of communities getting bad P50.
There’s got to be a point in this government where people are held accountable for their actions.
It’s not rocket science here we’re dealing with.
I’m just saying, if we have to every year, hire someone temporarily for six months to do quality control and see that we’re not being shafted on a product.
It’s an embarrassment. If we can’t purchase and supply products, petroleum products to a territory of 27 thousand people.
And I’m not blaming really anybody.
I’m not blaming any people in your department.
It might be fiscally responsible to go out there and hire somebody to quality control test this stuff because if we get it, and we see what we’re experiencing now, so, I’m urging the Minister maybe, find somebody that can do quality control on these products before we get saddled with them.
I know its buyer beware out there but let’s put a stop to this mess that we’re getting into every year with petroleum products.
Yes Ed. you’d be just the guy to do it.
So anyhow, I’m hoping that I’m getting my point across here tonight because people are shrugging their shoulders and looking at us and saying what are you guys doing out there.
Can’t you even buy Petroleum Products?
So, anyhow, I had to make that point clear.
And like I say, there are probably reasons for it.
The other issue that I want to talk about is the dry cargo contract.
This one is going to come back to haunt us all.
And that’s all I’m saying.
It’s going to come back to haunt us all.
Mr. Picco, if you want to come over here and sit beside me and comment, you’re more than welcome.
Well come over.
But I’m saying, in November when all the bills are in and all the costs have been tallied up, I’ll be in the house here doing capital, reminding this government if they made a mistake or not.
And being the quiet, shy person I am, I’ll let you all know about it because there’s a region over there that’s really in an uproar over the dry cargo contracts and if there is significant costs savings, I’ll be the first one to stand up in this house and say, Mr. Minister, you did the right thing by doing this.
At this point I’m a little cynical about it because I know that business community over there and they’re very active and vocal.
So, I’m just saying, I’m keeping an eye on this dry cargo contract.
On the NNI Policy, I think we meant well.
But I’m beginning to think the old BIP Policy worked better.
I thought the NNI Policy was here to help Northern companies, specifically Inuit companies.
I can go on and say a lot of the business has been stayed in the north, and is in the north.
We have done a good job with this policy of keeping outside contractors in.
I think that it needs to be tweaked a bit more in trying to assist small businesses to develop.
One of the things that popped up in a meeting, I was in Rankin Inlet on the weekend was the Supply Ship and Erect Contract through the Housing Corporation.
Members were saying that it would have been better off if it had been labour only, and I know that they still have a lot to say.
I will have to bring that up with the Housing Minister personally.
Training, your department used to be one of the best years ago in training boiler people, electricians, and all that.
I think that your department drifted away from it, so I would like to see you would come back in training people.
Right now there is not a lot of training being done out there by the Housing Corporation.
They are just too busy trying to do the day to day things with furnaces, and windows, and doors, sewage tanks, and stuff like that.
I really encourage you guys because you were good at it.
I think that there have not been many staff changes in the last four of five years in regards to training.
So I seriously encourage you to do some more trades training and apprenticeship training program.
On the IT issue, I think you guys are doing probably a great job on the IT issue, in maintaining computer and internet system and stuff like that.
In my humble opinion, it seems to be working very well.
Continue to keep it up because I know that in my community the IT person there is very qualified.
He keeps the computer system.
I never hear of any breakdowns, or any major problems happening.
Over the last four years, I think that this Territory has taken huge steps in the IT field.
I do not know if you are fully responsible for it, but for a department that did not really have any IT four or fives years ago, or only had it in certain areas, and now you have the decentralized communities.
The ones that I have visited, everyone seems to be on their working and doing a lot of good stuff.
I have to commend you on your IT support and your technicians and stuff like that.
So keep up the good work.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is all that I have.
Just a short comment to follow along with Mr. McLean’s comments.
That on page, there is no page numbers on the Minister’s Opening Remarks.
It would be best if we had some page numbers on the Opening Remarks.
On the second page, under Eastern Arctic Sealift.
I do not know what the Eastern Arctic Sealift is and I am not exactly sure which direction it is coming from.
I would like to get some clarification on that.
And that $31.6 million dollars is that just for transporting?
Or is that also for capital?
I would like to thank the Minister and his staff.
I would like to smile at the people that are out there.
The concern that I have is in regards to the bad gas that was also mentioned by Mr. McLean, is also a concern of mine, because I am sure that the Government paid out a huge amount of money because of the bad gas.
I also would like to mention the people that would like to take some training in their communities with Public Works, and as you know we have a lot of things that we need in our communities.
The concern that I have, Mr. Chairman, is because if you find out again that there is a problem with diesel fuel, there might have to be a lot of pay out from the Government again.
Whenever there is something, when the gas is bad or the diesel is bad, if we can do some research right away on it, then we would not have to pay so much money.
That is the concern that I have, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Havioyak: I have a short item here, too, as well.
NNI Policy, I want to make sure that the Inuit or local people are hired in the contract and the percentage, making sure that they are properly monitored and that is their word that I was looking for.
Is monitoring the contractors to make sure that they are hiring local, under that Policy, they are actually hiring local?
I know this question was brought up again last year, but I just want to make sure that we continue to raise this issue and how are you monitoring it?
It would be interesting to know how this is done to make sure they are meeting their requirement under their contract.
That is the only thing that I want to mention because most of the comments that were made by the Members are already out there.
I will be asking questions later on in that area.
Chairperson (interpretation): Any more comments?
I am in the support of the Department and to thank the Department for appearing before us tonight.
In the Minister’s Opening Comments, I understand that and the Minister mentioned that NNI Policy, in collaboration with Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated, will be of great benefit to Nunavummiut.
In regards to contract services, there are a lot of contractors outside of Nunavut that try to get contracts in Nunavut, they are already set up as a business and they do much better than Nunavut-based contractors.
Even though they have a cheaper bid to do a contract than in Nunavut companies, but at times, they require more money to complete their contract and then they ask for more money.
Those are the types of problems that we encounter here in Nunavut.
The contractors who try that live in Nunavut, that try for the same contract, that might have completed their work without asking for more money are sometimes not given the contract, although, they would be in a better position to complete the contract in its entirety without having to ask for more money.
So, those are the types of things that I have problems with are those contractors who do not complete their project and then they ask for more funding because they have to do more work in doing their projects.
Those are the types of things that I wanted to make my comments on.
Mr. Arvaluk, question?
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): I have a question on the Eastern Arctic Sealift.
On the second page of the Minister’s comments, interpretation end) the budget of $8.8 million for Directorate, how many PYs is that to give advice, assistance, planning, implementation, human resources, finance, all those functions.
How many PYs is that?
I will get Mr. Galbraith to answer the question.
Chairperson (interpretation): Mr. Galbraith
There are no PYs attached to this particular contract because the government has issued a contract.
We do have a consultant overseeing the situation in Montreal and the individual departments take care of the booking, advice, that go onto the cargo ships and the receiving end of it.
But the second paragraph on page 2, it says that with a budget of $8.8 million dollars for the Directorate, the Directorate provides, advice, assistance, planning, I understood that as a Directorate of Public Works Department.
That’s why I asked how many PYs there are in that $8.8 million dollar Directorate, in your department.
There is going to be 41 positions but at the present time there are only 32.
It’s for 44 PYs, for $8.8 million but you have 32 right now.
The second question I have is on that same page, of the last paragraph, I’m not quite sure what the Eastern Arctic Sealift is, is that Nunavut other than Kitikmeot.
Are these for transportation of Petroleum Products, dry cargo, dry goods and material?
First of all, it wasn’t 44, it was 41 PYs, but there are 32 positions right now.
And the Eastern Arctic Sealift is for the Nunavut region for dry cargo and Petroleum Products for the Baffin.
My colleagues from Baker Lake already voiced his concern on $15.2 million dollar Informatics Division.
I thought we started with $4 million in 1999.
It’s almost quadrupled in the budget.
I cannot stress enough that we have only limited, like $700 million dollars, for the whole Operations and Maintenance of Nunavut.
When we can not build enough schools and housing, some of these making life easier for Government of Nunavut employees or operation of Government of Nunavut seems to have higher priorities.
I know it is comforting to be able to write to Kugluktuk and answer back in 15-seconds, but according to the international standards and I think they are still in the third world countries as far as housing and health programs and education and training, unemployment, and concerns.
I think we are going to have to, as a whole, not as a Department of Public Works, but as a whole Government.
A few Departments contributing to start prioritizing in terms of immediate needs right now and probably limit some of the potential costs for IT and the control, you know, it is very good to have very high speed computer, but do we need that right now before we handle the housing shortage and everything else?
Under the fourth paragraph, there is an additional $1 million has been allocated for upgrading the Government of Nunavut facilities.
Is this for Public Works garages and things like this?
Yes, the Member raises a good question about the technical services.
We have to be able to provide information services to the people of Nunavut as the Department of Public Works.
But the last question that the Member asked, this is for the communities in Qikiqtaaluk and Kivalliq and Kitikmeot that when we need that extra $1 million dollars for the vehicles and for the garages, to upgrade those facilities.
That $1 million dollars will be allocated for those needed upgrades to Government of Nunavut facilities.
On the third paragraph of that same page, the pages are not numbered, I hope, in the next budget; I hope you will put the pages down so that we can report it when we are asking you from your Opening Statements.
On the third paragraph, that for 2003-2004 Petroleum Products Division, it has been allocated for $9.6 million dollars for capital funding.
We talked about that before.
I just would like to have the Nunavummiut to hear a little more clarification.
How many tanks, bulk fuel tanks, storage tanks are we building for $9.6 million?
We have to follow the population size of the communities in order to expand the tank farm.
The communities are Arctic Bay, Hall Beach, Qikiqtarjuaq, Resolute Bay, Whale Cove, Gjoa Haven and Kugaaruk.
Those are the communities that will be upgraded with their storage facilities or fuel tank facilities.
Mr. Arvaluk: Are the majority of the contracts done by outside of Nunavut?
Nunavummiut to build these storage tanks?
I will get my Deputy Minister to respond to that, he is more directly involved.
Mr. Mrazek: Mr. Chairman, can I ask Mr. Arvaluk to ask the question again just for clarity.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): Yes, 9.6 million dollars to build bulk fuel tanks.
Are these being done by firms outside of Nunavut, in Canada.