EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Chairman (interpretation): Mr. Minister, would you like to go to the witness table with your officials?
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): Yes, they are coming right away.
Chairman (interpretation): Sergeant-At-Arms, please assist the minister and his officials to the witness table.
Thank you, Mr. Sergeant-At-Arms.
Welcome Mr. Minister, and your officials.
Mr. Minister, please introduce your officials for the record.
On my left is David Akeeagok, my Deputy Minister.
At this time, we can continue with the main estimates on page F-9, Culture and Heritage.
Mr. Curley, you had the floor yesterday.
We are on pages F-9, F-10, and F-11.
Those pages are together.
Just before I recognize the floor, I would like the minister to introduce his other official on his right.
On my right is David Kolot, Director of Finance.
We’re on page F-9, F-10, and F-11. (interpretation ends) Culture and Heritage.
Total Operations and Maintenance. $3,814,000.
I have a question on one of your objectives is the development and delivery of archaeology.
Can you provide us with an overview of the functions that your archaeology division provides in Nunavut?
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Peterson. (interpretation ends) Mr. Minister.
What we do is deal with different things. Inuit Heritage Trust works with our department.
What we do is we train people to do archaeological work.
We also find archaeological sites; some of them have to be dug out.
(interpretation ends) The other part is; any kind of development that takes place in Nunavut, if they’re involved in archaeological sites, those are the kind of things that we do have to notify.
There are promotional posters and public service announcements that are out there and our key message is to try and educate everybody about the importance of archaeological sites and the need to preserve those by not disturbing.
So there are various functions that we do in the Archaeological Program. Within that, a lot of our work is working very closely with the Inuit Heritage Trust on all aspects of archaeology.
That’s called for under Article 33 of the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I thank the minister and the deputy minister for that answer.
Mr. Chairman, can the minister clarify for me here, they talk about archaeology but in their department do they also have a role to play in protection of palaeontological sites?
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): I will get my deputy to respond.
Mr. Akeeagok: Yes, we do administer the federal Act that covers archaeology and palaeontology.
Those are the two that we are in charge of administering for the Nunavut territory.
I thank the minister and Deputy Minister for that answer.
Could the minister tell me how many archaeologists work in your archaeology division?
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): We have one person in our department at this time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Nunavut is quite a large area. I am sure there are many archaeological sites and paleontological sites across Nunavut. I think there is over 2 million square kilometres in Nunavut.
Do you feel that one archaeologist is a large enough staff to administer all the work that the person would be required to administer?
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): Yes, I will get my deputy to answer the question.
Mr. Akeeagok: We do have one position under our department but if there is archaeological work, there are different organizations that could apply to do some archaeological digs. The most common ones would be the national parks, or other mining development.
Before any development is done, during screening the company is obligated to ensure that there is work being done. It is done by our department but is contracted to be done by a university or a person with archaeological degrees.
There is work being done outside of the department but our department, in this particular case, is focusing on the department’s requirements and try to determine how many are being conducted in any given year.
We also try and do some field work so we can attract some of our youth to the programs.
I thank the Minister and Deputy Minister for that answer.
Can the minister tell me if his department has a map or maps of Nunavut and the communities that clearly identify on those maps all the known archaeological sites and all the known paleontological sites?
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): Yes, we do have maps. We also have a database. Anybody can access them.
I thank the Minister for that answer. The minister said that anyone can access them.
Could he clarify how they can access them? Do they have to apply to the archaeological department or are they available online? Can they obtain them from the hamlet offices in the different communities?
Yes, they are available if you ask the culture and heritage branch. If you request one, you can obtain one.
They are not available on the website though.
You can request them if you require more information.
Although I am not on the Standing Committee Ajauqtiit, I am aware there is a legislative proposal in the system called An Act to Amend the Historical Resources Act.
One of the identified principle intents of the legislation or amendments in this particular legislative proposal is to identify and address any potential conflicts with other statutes regulating historical resources. An example cited is the Nunavut archaeological and palaeontological sites regulations.
I wonder if the minister could tell me if he knows of any or has identified any potential conflicts in Nunavut with respect to that particular federal regulation.
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): We have legislation that we are proposing but it’s not ready yet. I will make it available once it’s completed.
Mr. Chairman, I have a copy of a Nunavut archaeological and palaeontological sites regulations. They were passed in June 2001. I am aware of a potential issue here for Nunavut, and it concerns fossils.
The definition of a fossil according to this regulation is a preserved shell of an exoskeleton of invertebrates’ and eggs’ teeth and bones of vertebrates. Mr. Chairman, bones of vertebrates probably includes whale bones.
I know there is a carving industry in Nunavut where a number of carving artists carve in whale bone and have been doing that for many, many decades, 50 or 60 years that I’m aware of, and continue to this day.
There is potential for people who carve in whale bone to be in violation of this federal government act; they could be charged. And, there may be people already charged for all I know.
It’s a law that was passed federally that affects a small group of people in Nunavut who depend on their livelihood, carving in particular whale bone.
And, most whale bone in Nunavut is older than 50 years, and that is identified as an archaeological artefact if it is 50 years old, so I’m sure fossil is much older.
I wonder if the minister could tell me if he is aware that this is an issue for carving artists in Nunavut; particularly whale bone carving artists?
Has he heard of any situations where those folks are in conflict with the regulators, I don’t how many of them there are; it could be 10, 20, or 50.
There are probably a number of them in every region in Nunavut where whale bone is available.
I wonder if he could comment if he’s heard of any issues from the whale bone artists or if he thinks that act could potentially harm their activities, and their livelihoods.
The archaeological sites have to be protected and there is a lot of palaeontology in those sites.
The Inuit Heritage Trust up to now, we are trying to pass the information out to the public that you cannot go to the archaeological site without a permit.
You need a permit, or a license in order to access archaeological sites.
This past fall we received a letter from Pond Inlet where they were concerned that there were people who were collecting bones from the archaeological site and we had this investigated.
We are dealing with it because there was a concern from the community.
At this time we cannot say too much whether there will be because they might have to go to court, Mr. Chairman.
I don’t know who the individuals are that you’re referring to but I am sure they weren’t intentional, if they are whalebone artists, carvers and maybe have had access to whalebone for years in that area. I am sure that elsewhere in Nunavut there are also individuals who carve the whalebone and need a supply, I wouldn’t know that.
It seems to me that you have these regulations that were passed in 2001.
I don’t know if they addressed the well-known fact that there are individuals in Nunavut who have been carving for 50 or 60 years in whalebone and that they depend on the whalebone for their livelihood.
I know Canada is well respected around the world. You can see many whalebone carvings in all kinds of embassies, and important buildings around the world. You open up a magazine and you will see pictures of the whalebone carvings.
I am sure the whalebone artists in Nunavut are not going to the archaeological sites to loot them. They have gone there to acquire a source of whalebone to create an industry to support their livelihood.
I hope that when you are reviewing the legislative process that you identify and recognize that you take into consideration the impact of that industry and the impact of these regulations on the industry, and seek their input in your draft proposal and then find a way to exclude them from the intent of these paleontological sites regulations.
As you said that you could end up in court. You could get upwards of a $5,000 to $10,000 fine and/or a year or two in jail for what was probably was just an oversight or ignorance of the law.
I know that there is an expression that says ignorance of the law is no excuse but in this day and age there are so many laws and regulations that even as legislators we can’t keep on top of them.
That’s a comment, Mr. Chairman. I urge the minister and his officials and the archaeologists to recognize and respect the whalebone artists in Nunavut that they’re not looters.
They’re probably trying to get a source of whalebone for their carving for their livelihood. There may be other individuals in Nunavut who are out there to loot and wreck paleontological sites, I am sure you will know who they are too when you get those complaints.
So that will end my comment, there.
Mr. Minister, if you wish to respond.
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): Yes, we will be working with the archaeologists and the Inuit Heritage Trust.
We will review that and the proposed legislation, when it’s being reviewed, we will work on this.
I can say we will be taking photographs of the known archaeological sites that have to be preserved according to the federal legislation and we will try and make it public so that the public will be more aware.
We’ve been told that some people just go to the archaeological sites but we haven’t really made charges, especially if they’re Inuit because what we would rather do right now is to give the information out there to the public so they will know that legally they’re not supposed to go into archaeological sites.
So we will be able to produce such legislation where we will keep those in mind.
What my colleague mentioned, they’re very good comments and we’ll certainly give them consideration.
We will work with Inuit Heritage Trust and I’m sure we will be able to come up with a conclusion.
We’re on Culture and Heritage, on page F-9, F-10, and F-11.
Just for information, even last year there was a tsunami between Baffin Island and Greenland, or if there’s an earthquake we encounter a lot of big waves.
Some bones that are not along the shore were getting covered with the sand with the big waves; they’re going to have to be collected because we don’t want to lose them because they’re humongous pieces of head or bones.
If they can be provided with funding through HTO, my question is; it was not a resident of Pond Inlet who collected the bones and once I got the information, because he was sending a lot of boxes of whale bones, are they in your hands or in the hands of the RCMP during this process of investigation?
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Arvaluk. (interpretation ends) Mr. Minister.
I’m not aware of the people who have been taking out the artefacts and I don’t know whether they are being kept by these individuals or not.
The RCMP have been looking into this issue and because they were protected, especially for that incident, we let it go. The RCMP were informed and they were doing an investigation at that time but I can’t tell you exactly where those artefacts are.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): In regard to the artefacts that have been taken in the past, I am not overly concerned about that because they are already very likely sold already.
But this summer, this individual was taking artefacts and old bones. Were they confiscated?
I will make sure that we get our staff to look into this issue and give us an update about the artefacts and bones that were taken out this summer.
I would like to ask the minister about the permits that are obtained by archaeologists and other people who would like to do archaeological work.
Are those permits or licenses obtained from your department or do you have to go through the Nunavut Heritage Trust or some other organization? Who issues licenses or permits for what?
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): Yes, in the summertime there is usually a lot of archaeological work happening in Nunavut. For those people who want to do some research or do archaeological work, they have to get permits or licenses obtained by Department of Culture, Language, Elders and Youth.
Then again, before they come to our department they have to go through the Inuit Heritage Trust. That is following the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement. Under the agreement, they have to go through the Heritage Trust.
Then those applications are given to our department.
We are the ones who issue the permits or licenses.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): We are talking about the Department of Culture, Language, Elders and Youth when we are talking about Iliqqusilirijikkut.
Is it possible for the minister to table a specimen of a permit or license because I don’t know what kind of conditions are appended to those permits or licenses?
Yes, I like the idea of having a requirement for a permit or a license. Does this go through the regulation process? If you want to get a permit, what conditions or regulations are there?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman?
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): Yes, those application forms are available by website and I will commit to tabling a copy of those application forms during this sitting.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): In regard to the artefacts, I guess it is part of being part of our culture.
But there is one issue I have been concerned about. For example, we look at the showpiece in the centre of the House. If they are old pieces, they have to be preserved or protected.
They are part of our heritage.
There are even people out there who don’t have a license but are doing some work up here. In regard to the intellectual properties of the Inuit, is it possible to also protect those?
For example, if we talk to Mr. Patterk Netser’s mother, she knows a lot about midwifery and how it was practiced a long time ago.
I believe we have to also protect the intellectual properties of the Inuit.
Then there are the scientists coming who consult with the elders and are deriving all that information for their own purposes. At times, the scientists go back down south.
We might call ourselves Inuit but they end up calling us Eskimo.
I don’t think that is right. We call ourselves Inuit. I think that is the definition that should be used.
Is it possible to protect the Inuit intellectual property rights?
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): Yes, we have discussed this. We have discussed the issue of intellectual property rights. For example, the Inuit traditional knowledge.
Yesterday I stated we are taping but are a bit leery about putting them on to the website because anybody out there can take that information and steal it and say that it is their own.
We have looked at the issue of intellectual property rights, in coordination with the Department of Justice, especially the Inuksuk symbol because it is being used everywhere.
How can we protect the intellectual Inuit properties?
We did discuss this earlier on, but I am not sure how we can proceed with it. We will definitely have to put it on the table again.
Thank you very much for your indulgence. At this time, our lunch is ready.
We will return to Mr. Curley when we return at 1 pm. At this time, we will take a lunch break.
>>Committee recessed at 12:13 and resumed at 13:00
Chairman: Welcome back to the committee, committee members. (interpretation) Mr. Minister, and your staff, welcome back to the Chambers.
We are dealing with Culture, Language, Elders and Youth’s main estimates and we are under Culture and Heritage.
If you’re going to be making any comments please them as brief as possible and to the point, so that we can have a smooth meeting.
At this time Mr. Curley had the floor.
I would like to urge you to make sure that everything goes ahead, especially to set up a policy for intellectual property rights.
I think the policy will have to have everything in it, and I am sure that it is just under the guidelines of the legislation.
If there is a procedure set in place I think very strongly that the Inuit should be involved if they’re going to be looking at any of the heritage sites around their communities.
I look forward to having the intellectual property rights discussed and also to make sure that you consult with the communities.
A lot of people come up here, and it’s not just the anthropologists anymore; there’s students coming up here who are writing up their theses and they also interview the Inuit.
There was one student who was going on the radio but we couldn’t quite understand it. They were saying that they would pay $20 to interview an elder.
Even if they interview you for two or three hours; they’d still pay you $20.
They were the ones who wanted to interview the elders.
They didn’t have a license to compile that information, and since we are a very small population we have to make sure that there is a procedure in place.
Possibly we can entertain setting up a committee at the community level.
My question is: is it possible for the minister to look into this issue and give an update to the House when possible.
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): Yes, we will look into the issue of intellectual property rights and also taping.
The Department of Culture, Language, Elders and Youth also does interviewing and taping in regard to traditional knowledge.
We transcribe all the taped information into written form.
After that we could look into the intellectual property portion of it.
We will definitely have to talk about how we can copyright the information. For example, these were derived from an elder, and the elder will have to give his or her permission before any of her interviews can be documented, or copied.
I will definitely do as you said and give an update to the House as to what the next steps are going to be.
In regard to archaeology, or even if you are going to do some research around here, they first of all have to get a permit from the Nunavut Research Institute and have to consult with the local government or hamlet council.
It is their discretion whether they will approve or reject that request.
The Inuit Heritage Trust also has to be informed.
Should anybody have a concern, we have the final say as to whether it should be approved or not.
We have to do something concrete because there are going to be more and more people out there who will be requesting that information. We have to ensure that it is protected.
I commit to getting that information out there.
Chairman (interpretation): We are on the Department of Culture, Language, Elders and Youth. Culture and Heritage.
Page F-9, 10, 11. $3,814,000. Does the committee agree?
Chairman: Thank you. (interpretation) Let’s move on to page F-12 for Community Programs.
Total Operations and Maintenance. $2,586,000.
Under Community Programs, I believe this program is quite popular in the Keewatin region. When they have culture camps in the communities, the elders usually support the culture camps.
I would like to thank the minister for providing support to the elders.
As you have stated there’s a cooperation agreement in regard to funding.
From what I have seen in the Keewatin region, the young people and the elders are usually very pleased to meet with each other.
When the youth meet with the elders, with their help, they enjoy the day with the elderly women.
I wanted to name those individuals now: Norman Atagalak; the father of the Minister of Finance.
They are always pleased, Joe Qaunaq and David Nulu, when they are doing the culture camps, although they always have limited resources.
I do know that this program really supports the elders and the youth. It brought back the interest of the young people, things like preparing and skinning seal skins, so this was very helpful.
I would like to see this funding line item increased.
Perhaps sometime in the future you can table some kind of report in regard to that because in the Baffin region, I’m sure they have those kinds of activities. I would like to hear more about that.
The expenditure statements were tabled. When we are going to provide contributions, we want to receive reports, too.
I will work with my officials and perhaps come up with a little report to enhance or get interest going from the public and to make a report as to what activities they have held.
At this time, I cannot commit to you whether we are going to produce a report but I will discuss this issue with my officials.
We’re on Community Programs for Culture, Language, Elders and Youth.
Page F-12, F-13, and F-14.
(interpretation ends) Total Operations and Maintenance. $2,586,000.
Chairman: Thank you. We’ll go to page F-15.
We were very proud during the Canada Winter Games, and we were shown the uniforms yesterday.
We are so proud to see the Inuit of Nunavut winning games. Even though they were not Inuit games, they had won.
In the past, we heard that Inuit were very fast runners and very strong people.
Although I asked a question to an elder, if Inuit took part in the Olympics in those days I’m sure they would have won.
But, I was told no, and I asked why?
Because Inuit are very shy and timid, but it’s okay now.
They would not have taken part in the Olympics.
But, my question is: how many medals did Nunavummiut win in Whitehorse?
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): I thought I had the figure, but I was asked to send the information to all the members via e-mail. We have all the information on the computer as to how many gold, silver and bronze medals were won.
You can find the information on the Canada Winter Games in Whitehorse on the Culture, Language, Elders and Youth website. I have asked my officials to send this to the members, and here I thought they were already sent out to the members.
I don’t even have a copy with me Mr. Chairman.
Page F-15 and F-16. $3,843,000.
Chairman (interpretation): We’ll go back to page F-4.
Total Operations and Maintenance. $16,219,000.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just on the business plans on page F-18, at the bottom, under grants and contributions.
It states that headquarters, Baffin, Kivalliq, and the Kitikmeot, $4,360,000, how come there is a big discrepancy between the way they allocate the funding of grants and contributions.
Why is it $4 million in headquarters, and Kitikmeot; $155,000, and in the Baffin; $731,000, Keewatin is something else.
Hon. Louis Tapardjuk (interpretation): I will have our Finance Comptroller respond.
The grants and contributions for headquarters of $4.3 million are basically grants and contributions for all of Nunavut.
So the grants are administered out of the headquarters but this is Nunavut-wide; it’s for all people within Nunavut.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Kolot. Mr. Arvaluk.
Mr. Arvaluk: Do you have regional offices for Culture, Language, Elders and Youth?