EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
A question was raised regarding subsidies for hunters or hunter support programs.
I was waiting for you to look my way.
You did not glance my way, look around once in a while.
I will now identify what programs we have or the programs that we have for subsidies.
The fuel subsidy program is one of the programs that we have running.
You are all aware of the hunters support program.
We have an analyst working on reviewing all the programs that are made eligible to HTOs and other Hunters' Programs.
I will be talking more about this later so I apologize for not being able to give you more details right now.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Kilabuk.
Mr. Alakannuark (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, yes my question is in regards to the hunters' subsidy. I’m sorry if you cannot respond to that and I will wait for your announcement on the harvesters income program.
Once you announce that program, I will have more questions and I’m sure that the people are anticipating your announcement and those programs.
My next question is, when will you be announcing the new program, I know that you couldn’t answer my previous question.
According to my understanding, the fuel prices are not supposed to go up again for another couple of years and I know I have the right to voice my concerns, like for example, prior to the couple of years being over, we don’t know our future. For instance we don’t know what we are going to be doing tomorrow or the day after.
We only find out what the day holds for us when we actually reach that particular day.
For the upcoming two years that you plan to use this stabilization fund, we never know for example if there’s going to be a disaster in our communities or any other communities, if we for example lose a tank of fuel, would the fuel prices go up or would they remain the same.
Mr. Chairman (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Alakannuark. Madame Minister.
Hon. Manitok Thompson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Chairperson. As I stated before, we buy fuel once a year and purchase our fuel in July and since we purchased our fuel the cost of fuel has gone up.
If we bought the fuel today it would have cost us 9 million dollars more over last year due to the fuel prices going up drastically. They have gone up 14 million dollars from last year and analyzing all these, this stabilization fund, what Mr. Tootoo was referring to, in Inuktitut called Qurvaluatailimanijuminik stabilization fund.
It has capital of 5 million dollars, if we increase it 13 cents like now, this stabilization fund could be used for a couple more years if we purchase once in every year.
Down south fuel prices go up and then they go down, it fluctuates weekly, because it is transported by trucks.
In Nunavut, we purchase our fuel once a year and when we do that and we set the price, the price won’t change for a whole year, but once we purchase new fuel the price would change.
Looking at the price of fuel going up in the world, going up by 13.9 cents under the stabilization fund, and it has a cap of 5 million dollars, with that we could use the stabilization fund for two years.
By putting the fuel price up by 13.9 cents we can keep up with the stabilization fund without going into a deficit.
Next year when we go purchase the fuel and for example if the price went down, it would not be 13.9 cents.
But after analyzing it we already understand since last March 2000 to September just the previous September, the fuel price increased dramatically.
That is why this stabilization fund is used to offset the cost.
If the fuel prices went up from March to September we had 1.5 million dollars, a little over 1 million dollars it has gone up. Just in that time period.
This word stabilization in Inuktitut means managing the cost for the consumers.
I want to get a response to my question.
If there was an unforeseen disaster, if we were not able to get our fuel, for example if we were not able to get the fuel we wanted prior to the two years being up, would the fuel prices remain the same with the stabilization fund.
I would like to get a response to my question.
Yes. What I am trying to say briefly and I will try to answer your question.
At this point we have increased the stabilization fund by 13.9 %.
Even if we were running out of fuel when we purchase bulk fuel, it could be used a little bit over the year in some of the communities and we would purchase our fuel again this upcoming summer if there was no fuel available.
For this year we have increased the stabilization fund by 13.9 cents.
OPEC sets their own prices too, and we look at the way they increase their prices.
If we run out of fossil fuel in the world I am sure that we would have to find alternative means of heating fuel.
But for this winter, this year we have increased it by 13.9 cents.
We are dealing with fuel prices in Nunavut. I just want you to be aware of that.
Supplementary to Mr. Alakannuark's question. I will ask two questions.
Are you saying that for the next two years the fuel prices are going to remain the same.
It is going to be 13.9 cents.
Are you saying that will be the same for the year 2001-2002.
Minister Manitok.
I do not mind if you call me Minister Manitok.
I forgot to tell you that that I do not mind being called that.
Yes, for the two years, we are now on year 2000.
Are we in 2000.
I have lost my track of time.
Yes, I have been dealing with this for so long.
Yes, we bought the fuel this summer for this year.
It will be 13.9 cents and for the upcoming summer after we purchase the fuel it will be okay if we let the prices remain at 13.9 cents.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): I thought I understood that you purchased fuel last summer.
What we are talking about is November 1 for the year 2000.
There is only a couple of months left.
We cannot call it one year now because there is only two months left out of the year.
My question is from January 1, 2001 to January 1, 2002.
That is one year or January 1, 2001, December 31, 2001.
Second year comes January 1, 2002. December 31, 2002, that is the second year.
If you do not use January, November 1 will it be 13.9 cents.
I apologize if I did not give a clear answer.
Yes, we all understand that we purchased our fuel in the summer of July 2000 and then the fuel price goes up in November after all the tanks are filled up.
Fuel prices go up on November 1 and it will be the same November 2001 up to 2002 July.
That is going to be our standard price for those couple of years.
The 13.9 cent increase is to July 2002 and I know that we will be purchasing our fuel in July and the fuel prices will not go up right away.
Only up until all the fuel tanks are filled up in November 2002 perhaps then.
What kind of legislation are you going to be introducing so as not to increase the 13.9 cents.
As the minister knows oil prices can go down or they can go up because the price of fuel fluctuates in the stabilization fund.
I know that we might go over the 5 million dollars and we will have to amend the Act to go over the 5 million.
When are you going to introduce legislation so that we could amend it to the 13.9 cents.
We do not know what is going to be happening in the future so I cannot respond or tell you what it is going to be like in the year 2002.
I think that we will be on budget in the fall of 2002. We will be working on two things.
In 2002 if we went over the 5 million dollars we would be looking at three things.
We would have to review the piece of legislation so that we can go over the 5 million dollars or we could be looking at other government programs to do some re-profiling.
I would also talk to the other ministers and inform them we will have to go over the 5 million dollars or we would increase the fuel prices.
Those are the options that we would be looking at.
Referring to Mr. Alakannuark’s question about keeping the fuel prices stable for the next two years you should say that you hope to keep prices the same, it is not definite.
That part I got.
Mr. Chairman to keep it brief, the people who are responsible for the distribution of the petroleum products at the community level.
They are awarded a 10 year contract to distribute fuel at the community level and they are also told how much they are going to be paid.
Do they get paid by the amount of fuel that they sell at the community level or are they paid at a fixed rate in their contracts.
Mr. Ross Mrazek will be responding to your question.
If that is okay with you Mr. Chairperson.
Contractors who are delivering the fuel in the communities are paid on the commission sale.
That means petroleum products is paying them money based on the quantity of fuel.
There are two types of contracts by the way.
One is a short term contract and one is a long term contract.
The long term is usually 10 years for the different PPD contractors in the community.
Probably to the same Deputy Minister, a similar question but of a technical nature.
In other words those persons who are on contract to deliver fuel in the communities will ultimately benefit from this 13.9 cent hike.
Or will the minister renegotiate contracts to keep the services under control.
It would be nice if Mr. Green was here.
But Mr. Mrazek can probably respond to your question.
I think the contracts are expiring soon.
Mr. Mrazek can respond to the member's question.
I am sorry I am not able to give you the correct answer as far as the amount of the commission paid per litre. I believe that doesn’t have an impact on the price of the fuel to be sold.
What I’m saying is that regardless of the number of litres the contractor is selling, this commission is stable. Most of the contracts are going to expire in spring 2001, and I believe some of them in 2001 in the summer.
Petroleum Products has already started working on re-tendering all those contracts through Nunavut.
If they are paid according to per litre on commission rather than dollars that they create through sales then ultimately according to Mr. Alakannuark, a lot of hunters will not be buying as much fuel because they will not be able to afford it.
Secondly they will probably be a discouragement for homeownership because they will not be able to afford the fuel, so those contracts in the community, if they are paid per litre rather than in dollars, then they’re bound to lose due to that price hike of 13.9 cents Mr. Chairman.
Hon. Manitok Thompson (interpretation): We are looking at a hunters' support program and subsidies for homeowners, we are looking at these two issues, but I cannot give you details on the numbers.
Mr. Arvaluk: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the minister and I don’t have the same pamphlets from the government, with the Government of Nunavut symbol with the polar bear on it, that has all the information in several plain language facts.
Do you know how we calculate retail prices of fuel, for example drops in the retail price of fuel contracts for delivery.
Can I get a clarification from the Minister or Deputy Minister, is that per litre for example, 5 cents a litre that you pay out to the contractor or 12 percent of the retail price of fuel that you pay out to the contractor.
Can I hear from the Minister or Deputy Minister, which are they paying to the contractor. According to this government fuel facts pamphlet, I’m hearing something different.
Hon. Manitok Thompson: Mr. Chairman, that document has not been tabled in this House and cannot be discussed. That should be ruled out of order.
Mr. Arvaluk: Mr. Chairman, I apologize, I thought that it was a public document. I thought it was sent all over the north.
I guess it will not be shipped out to the communities before November 1, I doubt we have that kind of mail service.
Hon. Manitok Thompson: Point of Order.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you. Madame Minister.
Hon. Manitok Thompson: Mr. Chairman. Any document that is tabled in this House can be discussed.
You cannot discuss a document even though it has been published and given to all the people all over Nunavut, you cannot discuss that.
Right now we are discussing my minister’s statement.
We are discussing the fuel prices for Nunavut.
We are not discussing any other issue.
We are dealing with the minister’s statement 007-1 (4) which is the fuel price increase for Nunavut.
That is the agenda item on the table.
Mr. Arvaluk: Thank you Mr. Chairman, my apologies to the minister.
Going back to the minister’s statement, the last question I have actually there are 101 more, however, keeping in mind the time and the other members want to ask questions.
Have there been some discussions as to considering for example, if the minister and the cabinet would consider cutting the 13.9 cents increase in half to lessen the impact on the communities, even recognizing that Sustainable Development and other government programs like Health and Social Services, Income Support will try to ease the blow by giving them subsidy or assistance.
There will be, no doubt, some other consumers who are in the same dilemma or predicament by not being able to afford a fuel hike of that magnitude and will suffer accordingly.
This will create an inequality of assistance.
Some of the people will not come under any department but are barely surviving in the community.
I hope we will not be creating some kind of discrepancy or some kind of discriminatory treatment of our own Nunavummiut.
Keeping that in mind, has she considered cutting the 13.9 cents in half so that we could have a set plan for our own individual economic plans for this winter because some people will have a very hard time getting their cash flow especially the new teachers and newly employed government civil servants in the decentralized communities or those who own a home.
First time owners that are buying new furniture after the sealift and etc. etc.
Has she considered, or will she be considering that during or sometime before Christmas.
I think everybody would like to ask questions.
If the member has a recommendation I can consider that.
At this time I could probably consider heating fuel because it impacts a lot of homeowners.
We want to encourage homeownership.
If a member has recommendations I could consider something like that just for one type of fuel and that is heating fuel.
We can look at the option.
I just want to make a small comment.
In our community the people who would like to apply for homeowners programs.
They have been trying to get a house but have been turned down.
I know that this is a big problem with the fuel increase.
Everyone knows now we are affected by the world price of the oil.
Even though there are people who want to buy a home, they will be having more problems right now.
Some people will be saying I want to own my home but there will be a lot of bills to pay, groceries and other costs.
They will have problems keeping up with the bills.
Even though they want to buy their own home they will look at other alternatives.
They may be saying that renting is lower and they may say I will go for that instead.
I know that is a problem especially with the fuel and also gas.
I would like to ask the minister, you said social services may be able to help if they have problems and if they need a subsidy.
I would like to ask the minister…
>>Audio problem.
Chairperson (interpretation): The interpreter apologizes for being on the wrong channel.
I think that you should keep to the point.
Keep your questions as brief as possible so that we can get good responses.
Please keep your questions brief and to the point.
I am sorry I did not quite get the question.
But I heard part of the question that was posed.
I think what you said is that homeowners will be discouraged from applying for this particular program.
I just want to hear your question again.
Mr. Havioyak please keep your question to the point so everything will operate more smoothly.
Mr. Havioyak: Testing 1,2,3.
Is everything okay. (interpretation) Sometimes I want to make my preamble short which is difficult to do at times so that I can be well understood.
It is hard to pose the question properly.
My question is that some people are thinking that they should not buy a house because that can get a house through the Housing Association because it would be less difficult.
My question is, the programs and services that are geared towards homeownership would you be working towards this so that subsidies would go towards the house for fuel or gas.
Do you understand my question.
Like I said we are looking at, the Minister of Education is looking to see if they could set up benefits for homeowners.
We all understand and we do want to encourage increasing the number of homeowners.
There are quite a lot of people that would like to access these homeownership programs.
With that in mind we are reviewing with the Minister of Education on fuel, home heating subsidy programs.
The member for Nanulik also asked if I could review these.
We could look at the home owners.
Thank…
Chairperson (interpretation): Turn your mike back on Minister.
When I said thank you Mr. Chairman the microphone line went off.
I thought that was the question so I responded as such.
Mr. Havioyak did you want to make a supplementary.
Mr. Havioyak (interpretation): You mentioned another matter on fuel earlier and I would like more clarification on this.
In July fuel was purchased and the price is set then but you think now today the price has increased.
I am trying to clarify this.
Maybe I did not quite hear it.
If the world price goes lower before next year will our prices be reduced too.
The fuel price is increasing world-wide and it is constantly under scrutiny.
As I stated earlier we bought the oil in July and since that time the price has increased significantly and if I were to buy a million dollars worth today it would be higher tomorrow.
If the fuel price were to increase today then we would have to review all the options that we have in front us.
We buy fuel.
We supply for one year and this is not going to decrease.
We buy fuel at least once a year.
But say we were going to buy a re-supply in July.
If the price increased before we had a chance to pay that July re-supply then we would feel the price increase by the time we were going to buy our next fuel re-supply.
If the prices had gone up by the time July came around then we would pay more for the fuel.
The funds that we expended for fuel in July are not going to decrease because we already paid that price.
Do you have a supplementary question.
The clock is ticking away and there is someone else who wishes to comment.
Mr. Havioyak (interpretation): There is no rush, it is okay.
(interpretation ends) So the bottom line is there is always an increase and never a decrease.
Is that what you are telling me.
Hon. Manitok Thompson: I will make it clear.
It would be like me going to the store and buying the fuel.
I go to the store in July and buy the fuel at 90 cents.
I already bought it so it is going to be 90 cents whether the store keeps changing it over here because I already bought it.
When I go down again in July the price might be 50 cents.
So it is a different price.
We just buy once a year.
That is what I was trying to say.
Down south you buy every week so the price goes up and down.
It is all over the place every week.
But in Nunavut we just do increases and decreases once a year after the tanks have been filled.
The other thing Mr. Havioyak, if it did not get translated, was just to let you know, we bought the fuel at a certain price in July.
If I go down there today it is 9 million dollars more already.
It is going up so fast.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): That is good to hear that the fuel price will remain the same for the next two years.
Mr. Alakannuark's question was pertaining to an emergency situation just like the Sanikiluaq power plant was an emergency situation.
Of course we do not anticipate any emergencies of this type, I think Iqaluit has the largest oil tanks and if those oil tanks were to blow up and we had to buy fuel then would we be paying the same rate or would it go higher.
Chairperson (interpretation): Be careful with your microphones because the interpreters ears are sensitive.
Thank you. Minister.
I think it is hypothetical.
I have difficulty with pronouncing the word hypothetical.
What that means is I don’t know what is going to happen to me tomorrow whether I will live or die, whether I will run out of food to eat.
Hypothetical questions are a violation of House procedures here.
We are talking about the increase in fuel prices, and the stabilization fund of 5 million dollars.
We will be using that 5 million dollars for this year. Every year we analyze the fluctuation of fuel prices and the re-supply of fuel to the communities.
The purchase and re-supply of fuel would be under the review of the Cabinet.
I just want to remind the member that when a question is out of order it does not require an answer or response.
I received the response to my question, I just wanted a clarification as the response to that question when posed earlier was not quite correct.
The 13.9 cents is the rate of increase and there’s nothing we can do about it for the next two years, and the fuel price will be 98 cents per litre.
Now the 13.9 cents does sound better than 14 cents so is that why those numbers were chosen.
Mr. Chairman (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Nutarak, we are dealing with fuel increases, now sometimes we stray off this subject and bring something new in all together, like you brought up exploding tanks.
With the emergency that you mentioned, that was out of order and nobody can answer that now.
We are trying to deal with fuel price increases and the stabilization fund.
I understand the question that Mr. Nutarak has posed to me, and that’s a good question.
If a litre was at 20 cents and that price is increased by 13 .9 cents, we don’t want to see that 13.9 cent increase we want to keep the litre below a dollar.
We don’t want to see the price go beyond a dollar per litre.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): Although I have asked this question, this 98 cents will it be a cap for all Nunavut communities.
In the high arctic the price of fuel is usually more than the more southern communities.
I was asking if we are going to be using this 98 cents per litre for all the communities of Nunavut.
Is that what the price is going to be for the upcoming two years.
I forgot to respond to you. Yes, that is what we are saying.
If we put a cap on of 98 cents a litre, providing we can remain within the 5 million dollars we can do so, the legislation states that the stabilization fund is there and it could be used and yes, I agree with it.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): My very last question.
So the price of fuel in Nunavut is going to be the same price per litre for all Nunavut communities.
Chairperson (interpretation): You may already understand this because you have received correspondence in regards to what we are debating in the House now.
That is the cap of 98 cents and I am sure that some communities, if we did not put a cap it, some communities might be charging over one dollar a litre and some communities might be over by three cents or more but we put a cap on at 98 cents.
I will keep my questions brief and to the point.
The minister indicated that there is going to be a cap of 98 cents roughly per litre.
Are there any communities in Nunavut that are paying more than that right now on petroleum products.
We have a different varieties of fuel. I think we have 9 types of fuel so they are all different.
But there are communities that are paying over a dollar that were paying, that would have been paying. I know that Resolute Bay, Coral Harbour, there is a list but there are nine products we sell.
It is too much detail to talk about right now.
I would have to table it or give it to the members.
I guess, Mr. Chairman, I just want assurance that any of the products that the minister has indicated that the cap will apply to in some communities I believe are you know my understanding there are some communities and some of these, more than one product is over that cap. So those communities will see a reduction in the cost of what they are paying for it right now.
Hon. Manitok Thompson: Mr. Chairman, as I said, we capped at 98 cents and there is some fuel that we did not cap.
There were some communities that would have been paying a lot more but we capped it at 98 cents.
Av-gas is one of the gases that we did not cap.