EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
As I indicated before to the honourable member, there is a financial, formula financing agreement in place between us and the Government of Canada for a five year period.
So from that perspective, the funding is fairly secure for that five-year period.
Mr. Chairman, another area that I would like to ask the minister is in regards to the P3 projects that are going on out there.
I am just wondering if you could provide us with a status report on the ones that are, where they are at right now.
For the reimbursement for the three birthright corporations, Sakku, Qikiqtaaluk and the Kitikmeot Corporation, we have now received the signed reimbursement agreements and have them back to the development corporations.
So they can now undertake the work for the planning work that had to be provided as a part of those reimbursement agreements.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Minister Ng. Mr. Tootoo.
Mr. Chairman, I assume the minister is talking about the three regional hospitals that are being worked on.
I was just wondering about the nursing station in Arviat as well.
Mr. Chairman, for the Arviat Health Centre and I thank the member for reminding me, they are anticipating that the actual construction will resume again on May 8, which is a week away.
Mr. Chairman, I am just wondering if the department has any other plans for any other such projects in the works that they are looking at or may be looking at in the near future.
Mr. Chairman, the only other one that came over in the package from the GNWT where there had been some work, was the Arctic College facility for Cambridge Bay.
What has happened with that is that the Department of Education with our department and Public Works is putting together a Request for Proposal for interested companies, of which the possibility of P3 financing could be one of the options to be reviewed.
So that was the only other potential P3 project that we have on the table right now.
I am just wondering, we talked about the Arctic College residences, I believe that in the past there was in the capital plan some additional student accommodations in the previous budget for Iqaluit.
I am just wondering if that is being looked at as well.
I know Iqaluit is going and there are more and more courses being offered at the college and the residences I know right now for example, there are a number of students having to stay in some of the older accommodations in town here that aren't specifically for students.
I was just wondering if that project is being looked at as well.
Mr. Chairman, I forgot to mention that.
When the whole issue about what to do with the Arctic College requirements in the Kitikmeot campus came up for discussion there was also the issue about the Keewatin and the Baffin on exactly what might be required for additional residences or to upgrade the existing residences.
So also there is a part of that overall decision in the same departments I had mentioned earlier, the Department of Education on behalf of Nunavut Arctic College, Public Works and Finance and Administration, were to put together some, again, what the needs are.
To get it to the point of asking for requests for proposals, to see what could be undertaken for those two other campuses.
At the time we had not identified whether a P3 financing arrangement was going to be one of those options or not.
It is not at that stage yet, right now it is just to identify what the needs are and to see where to proceed from there.
Mr. Chairman, I am just wondering if there are any criteria used or analysis done looking at these projects. I know that we have very limited resources that we have to work with and more and more of these types of projects that we take on also uses up our future dollars and furthers limits the resources that we have available to us in the future.
Are there are any criteria looking at, we know we would like to have this but it is just something that over in the Department of Education is doing a twenty year plan.
These types of things may have to wait their turn and come up where they fall within that twenty-year plan, if it's an education facility or not or whether it would go and move ahead sooner as a P3 project.
So I am wondering if there is any criteria for deciding on that.
Mr. Chairman, there would be from the perspective of all these decisions having to come back for Financial Management Board review.
But also I guess from the perspective of there seems to be a move from the public accounting leaders in respect to trying to change the way public accounting, government accounting for assets, for long-term assets.
In the past governments have been required to charge all the expenditures in the year in which they outlay the expenditure, the cash.
That's why the capital plans come forward in the Legislature.
But the move is to allow, to change the guidelines to allow governments to amortise their capital investments over the life expectancy of those assets, similar to what private enterprise has available to them right now from that depreciation aspect.
So that's one major change that is making its' way through the public accounting sector right now that could have an impact, or will have an impact on the government accounting procedures and government expenditures in the future.
I guess hearing that it would make it all the more critical that we do have some type of criteria or standard to roughly choose to go ahead on that matter. If we are going to be allowed to a lot more easily get into these types of arrangements, we could look at one project for example, that could have an impact on the government probably long after we are gone.
If we get into too many of these, we really have to be cautious in this area.
We are basically mortgaging our future.
We are spending dollars with some of these arrangements that go over the life span of the building, which is over 25 or 30 years.
Then we are spending money that 25 or 30 years from now that the government of the day and our children won't have to deal with.
So I guess I would really want to see some type of criteria developed that would say whether it is worthwhile for us to do that in entering these types of agreements, prior to any of these agreements being approve like that.
Because it could have a huge impact on the future governments of Nunavut.
Mr. Chairman, there is a quite detailed analysis of this Mr. Chairman, alternative form of financing I understand.
One of the key criteria, the emphasis on value for money, because I recognize that there are long term implications and ongoing operating costs as a factor as well with the capital construction costs.
On these management agreements or P3 projects, has the department set up or developed a set of policies or procedures that govern the management of these yet or not.
Mr. Chairman, as I have indicated in the past we do have draft policies and procedures that haven't been formally adopted yet.
Unfortunately because of other issues and other priorities it hasn't got to the cabinet or Financial Management Board decision level yet.
But we expect to have that done in shortly after we are finished with our budget session.
Mr. Chairman, will the standing committee or the regular members be able to have any input on those prior to them being approved.
Mr. Chairman, I would say that at the first available opportunity I would provide those policies and procedures to the standing committee.
Right now I can't commit to having it to them before the Financial Management Board, or before cabinet has had a chance to review it.
They would certainly have to review it in advance so it can go to one of the standing committees.
Yes, I know it would probably have to come to us in a draft form for the committee to review.
I guess once it is all said and done and the policy is completed and they are set up and approved, is that something that would be, that the government would make public as well.
Mr. Chairman, yes.
First, we will deal with the capital estimates.
We do not have any capital estimates.
We will go to the Main Estimates.
Page 3 – 4, the Main Estimates, under directorate.
I think everybody has the Main Estimates, operations and maintenance for 2000/2001.
Department of Finance and Administration, branch summary, directorate.
Operations and maintenance, total operations and maintenance, 867 thousand.
We are under the main estimates, 2000/2001, operations and maintenance.
Page 3 – 4.
Total operations and maintenance, I will begin from the beginning.
Department of Finance and Administration, branch summary, directorate, operations and maintenance.
Total operations and maintenance, 867 thousand.
Mr. Chairman, I note under the directorate, and just to get this clarified, is last year there was 87 thousand dollars in contract services and it is down 50 thousand dollars this year.
I am just wondering if that is services that were contracted back to the GNWT or where they were is that something that we are doing now.
I am just wondering why there is that difference of 50 thousand.
Mr. Chairman, no generally there has just been a decrease in the requests for contract services.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as well there is also a big increase in the computer hardware and software.
Is that, again I know that I talked about it before, new programs and stuff like that or is that just new computers for that area.
It wasn't staffed before they didn't have the equipment and now they are planning to get staff in there that they need more equipment or what.
No, Mr. Chairman, generally it is just a 14 thousand dollar increase for that budget item.
I was going to ask a question in regards to the computers.
Perhaps when we reach that item I will ask my question at that time.
Chairperson (interpretation): I did not hear a question.
We are on page 3 – 4.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question under contract services.
Are there any services contracted back to the GNWT and would they show up through here in directorate or are they somewhere else in the budget.
Mr. Chairman, no, all the finance and administrative functions that were contracted to the GNWT, as of April 1, we assumed responsibility, we resumed responsibility for those services that we had contracted out.
We will go on to total operations and maintenance, 867 thousand. Are you agreed.
Chairperson (interpretation): Total expenditures, 867 thousand.
Chairperson (interpretation): Going on to the next page, 3 – 5.
Finance and Administration, branch summary, fiscal policy and expenditure management, operations and maintenance.
Total operations and maintenance.
In this area again, looking at the details provided to the standing committee, there is a substantial increase in travel and transportation.
Why is there such as an increase.
Has the function changed or has something been re-allocated.
What is the big difference.
The travel and transportation is primarily as a result of any additional requirements needed because of the capital budgeting.
The development of the capital budget, sorry the 5-year draft of the capital plan.
That is why we have had some provisions in case there was some inquiries in that area.
I would just note that the contract services were dropped by almost 500 thousand dollars.
Were those services that we had contracted back to the GNWT or was that something else.
Mr. Chairman the bulk of the decrease here is really a transfer within departments because of the P3 planning, funding of approximately 500 thousand dollars was moved over to corporate services from this section.
I would just ask the question there, two lines down on the other expenses it goes from 1.1 million dollars to 20 thousand.
Is that the same type of thing.
Something has been re-allocated to a different location in the budget.
Yes the member is correct there was 1 million dollars of this moved to the Business Development Corporation for start-up funding that was under this section in prior years.
Going back to total operations and maintenance, 1 million 687 thousand dollars.
Here it states the Canadian and Nunavut tax policies and the administration of tax collection processes.
So, this one is for taking taxes out of Nunavut.
Is that what it is.
He is correct in that this is the section where those responsibilities come under the jurisdiction of the department.
Last year we expended 3 million dollars and the previous 2 million 976 thousand.
It has gone down by quite a bit.
Perhaps it is because of the Federal Government and Nunavut government splitting the tax collections.
Just to clarify, this isn't the actual tax revenue this is just the administration of the people who are responsible for the policy surrounding tax collection and tax administration.
The member refers to some changes that were in response to some earlier questions by Mr. Tootoo.
I had indicated that 1 million dollars had gone out of this section for the business credit corporation start-up, a half million dollars that had gone out of this section for P3 administration and that had gone over to corporate services.
Total operations and maintenance, 1 million 687 thousand.
Total expenditures, 1 million 687 thousand.
Page 3-6 Finance and Administration, branch summary, corporate services, operations and maintenance.
Total operations and maintenance, 1 million 397 thousand.
Mr. Chairman it is here again, an area for contract services.
Are those services that we contract out or what are those contract services comprised of.
Mr. Chairman, the contract services here are primarily the work required under the P3 policy development and work for ongoing issues surrounding the P3 projects.
I note here there is also a line for purchased services.
What types of services would they include.
There are several objects under purchased services that could be anything from freight, delivery and courier charges, telecommunications, postal services, storage, insurance services, banking services, conference and meetings services and advertising.
Those are the general areas under purchased services.
It seems like the funding could be used for staff housing.
Do you also use that for staff housing also.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: No, Mr. Chairman.
Well let me read the note here.
It states that under P3, that collective bargaining, staff housing as well as public private partnerships.
Why did you say no when it is included in there.
This is the corporate support that shows us being involved in having fellow policies in that area.
P3, I don't understand what P3 is.
Could you elaborate that P3 to me.
P3 is an acronym that we use for public, private partnerships.
It is an alternate form of financing where the private sector primarily provides the bulk of financing for a project.
Some of the risk is associated with the government assuming some of the lease and operations for the facility, and some of the risks are assumed by the private sector in that facility.
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Chairman and thank you minister for the clarification.
The Nunavut Nunavummi Nangminiqaqtunik Ikajuuti policy, and I know that the Inuit companies will be working very hard, so will the private Inuit companies be included in P3.
All the government policies and procedures apply to these contracts but as it stands now the three regional health facilities and the proposed ownership is with the Inuit birthright development corporations.
That was an arrangement that was agreed upon by the GNWT that we have adopted as the Nunavut Government.
For the Arviat facility that is a private development corporation, the Arviat Development Corporation, the owner is the main proponent for that facility.
Chairperson: Thank you Mr. Ng. Mr. Tootoo.
Just a couple of questions.
It is interesting because it measures staff housing and the minister had indicated that some of his staff are working in this area of policy development.
I think, as he is quite aware because it is something that I have been asking about for over a year, something that falls under this department to develop or is it something that falls under the Housing Corporation to develop.
Mr. Chairman, as you know Public Works has the lead on this and there is Human Resources involved and the Housing Corporation.
Public works and Finance and Administration are all involved and that is where this corporate services and the Finance and Administration staff are involved.
Obviously there are financial implications surrounding this policy.
We are part of a group, I believe that the Department of Public Works is taking the lead with the development of the staff housing policy.
That is good to hear that a team is working on this hopefully we will see something soon as a team effort.
Mr. Chairman one last question, this is the area that is responsible for the collective bargaining.
I was just wondering what the state is as far as the Nunavut Employees Union and as far as bargaining goes.
As you know my other capacity as Minister of Human Resources, the other departments that are involved in this are Finance and Admin., Corporate Services, obviously again because of the financial implications government wide.
But as it stands now as members know the Northern Employees Union had to postpone the last set of negotiations and we are just waiting to hear back and confirm future dates to resume collective bargaining.
A very brief question then.
Do you have a finance committee that reviews the whole financial aspects of the Nunavut Government.
That is the Financial Management Board.
Chairperson (interpretation): We are on page 3-6.
Chairperson (interpretation): Total expenditures 1 million 397 thousand.
Chairperson (interpretation): Turning the page over 3-7, finance and administration, branch summary.
Information management and technology, operations and maintenance.
Total operations and maintenance 7 million 974 thousand dollars.
Mr. Chairman in this area if we take a look at the mains from last year which is almost 4 million dollars and this year it had gone up to just over 7 million dollars. In the way of contract services could the .
sorry . . . heaven forbid that I should do that.
I am just getting comfortable over here.
Last year's mains had just under 4 million dollars in services and this year it is up over 7.2 million dollars and could the minister explain the increase.
As members may recall we also had some supplementary appropriations during the course of this year specifically for technology because we recognize that it was an area that wasn't fully funded as well as it should have been.
We are trying to make that adjustment this year.
But we have to recognize that there is a lot of work activities that are planned to be put in place and if you would allow me to list them out Mr. Chairman.
There is the income support system with the department of education.
There is the student financial system with education.
The offender's information system with justice.
The public trustee system again with justice and there are several smaller systems as well that are being developed with justice.
A docket management system and a jury system.
With public works there is an inventory system and electrical device system and there are also others that are being anticipated like the students records system, an apprenticeship system, courts information system, maintenance enforcement system.
Personal property registry system.
Health insurance management system, petroleum products distribution system.
Games and recreational licensing system.
So there are a lot of initiatives and given that we don't think that we can do them all, then we will have to prioritise which ones are needed and which ones are doable.
Those are the things that have to be taken into consideration.
Yes, I realize there was a large amount of supplementary done last year for that, I think it is over a million dollar increase over last year.
A supplemental final amount from last year.
These programs are developed on behalf of the departments, do not the other departments have to contribute while you are doing this work on behalf of other departments.
Would there be any recoveries.
Don't the other departments have to show if there would be IT stuff in their areas.
Or should it be just the department of finance should be the only area that has IT expenditures for program development.
The Government of Nunavut has chosen to centralise the Informatics, or the information technology development, I think with the exception of health that has some telehealth capital dollars that were allocated.
The bulk of the system development rests with Finance and Administration.
It will go through a screening process, an ongoing approval process through the Financial Management and Services Board the further along they get in this system development.
The minister had listed off quite a number of different projects that they are working on.
On these ones are there any of them with existing programs in place.
Or are we looking at replacing them with new ones or are we just trying to develop new ones where none were in place before.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Ng.
A lot of the system development is or has been ongoing work and it is near completion.
It was a lot of the programs or the systems development was identified in the OIC days and carried forward with the Government of Nunavut and so we are seeing the end of the completion of a lot of those systems and a lot of development of those systems.
Were there any systems in place in the GNWT that could have been carried over to use.
I know that it was mentioned in the Rankin session, one system that was basically scrapped was the Peoplesoft one.
That was 3.5 million dollars basically down the drain.
I am just looking at where we are over 7 million dollars, which is a lot of money to spend on information technology and I am just wondering if existing programs were in place then they could be carried over instead of developing new ones.
Mr. Chairman, I understand that there may have been limited systems but they were limited.
Many the GNWT programs were not Y2K compatible.
Even the GNWT themselves are under a lot of pressure as far as the systems development go.
We think that in the long term if will be beneficial obviously to have many these systems in place. There is an ongoing expense for that development and we can see though that it would tail off at one point and we wouldn't have to be coming back for the development funding of the information technology.
I was wondering at what point it is up 1 million dollars.
If the trend keeps going like that then it is going to be an amount that we can't afford at some point.
So it is good to hear and I look forward to the day when it does start petering down and that number is actually going down.
Another area in there is that on the permanent salaries, 115 thousand.
How many people are hired in this area as permanent employees of the government as opposed to contract employees that work with these programs from the south.
I just was wondering if there is a comparison of numbers.
How many consultants as opposed to the number of permanent positions that we have located in Nunavut on this.
Chairperson: Thank you. Mr. Ng.
Mr. Chairman there are four PY's approved in our main estimates and just if I may to go back to Mr. Tootoo's and my comments in regards to future needs and that.
I think that it is also important to recognize even though some of the program development costs stabilise or should stabilise over time, at the same time that some of the operating costs, because your systems will be up and running, may tend to increase as a result or having this system on line.
This is not within the Department of Finance but a government perspective as an issue that people have to be aware of.
Overall, I think it is not just the government Nunavut that is investing in information technology and replacements and establishment and development of systems.
All governments and all corporations quite frankly across, not just our country but across the world these days you have to have systems to make yourself more efficient otherwise you stay with the manual type of system and it is found not to be as efficient as technology across the world.
I thank the minister for his opening remarks and I am just again wondering, I asked how many consultants we have working with the systems development as opposed to permanent employees.