EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
We had those three unfilled positions that had duties and responsibilities, especially the last one that you mentioned, the inspections and stuff like that.
Whose shoulders does that fall on to make sure that that work gets done?
What I am saying is, what position, who does that work if those positions aren’t there to do it?
I don’t really have a full understanding of it, so I will get Mr. Rich to respond to the question.
Part of the reason for the reorganization that was done in the Department of Protective Services was to pull together what was the fire marshal’s office and the emergency measures office in old Community Government and Transportation, with the inspection services office in Public Works.
One of the advantages that it gives us by pulling it together is more people who are able to do the critical inspection services and workload services.
The projections on the number of staff in the old department were based on assumptions on what salary dollars would be available.
When those were not available and had historically not been available, we decided to make the choice of accurately in fact what positions were funded.
There certainly is, and can be a need for additional services.
On the other hand, we have increased the number of inspections over the past year by working more closely.
Again, prior to the combination of the department with Public Works, we have also done it by putting an emphasis on the regional offices of more services.
We have increased the fire inspection services in particular by funding, and finally filling the second position in Baffin; the Baffin region was particularly underserved.
They had about 45 percent of the population on the hamlet, but the same amount of fire staff as the other regions.
They now have an additional fire staff position in that filled position in that region, which they historically did not have.
I am just going through the whole inspections and that.
I remember, I am pretty sure it was on the radio last year, last summer, when the fire was going on at Joamie School, when the school burnt, and we had lost the school.
One of the comments I understand that the fire marshal made was he was unable to go do those inspections because he did not have a travel budget to do so.
I am just wondering how you know looking at the budget here, it was budgeted at $588,000 last year and it is only $557,000 this year.
I am just wondering how you were able to assist him to be able to do his job and carry out those inspections, if there was a reduction the budgeted dollars to do it.
There is a correction for that, the travel from south to the north has been adjusted and there has been a reduction from travel from south to the north.
Will the fire marshal have more funds at his disposal to do more inspections in the north, which he is required to do?
Yes, as a matter of fact, now with the setup that we’ve got, with the important persons, other inspectors now under one department, we should be able to accommodate and better meet the needs out there.
Another area I guess falls under this is training for the fire fighters in the communities throughout Nunavut.
Who does the training for the fire fighters? Is it the fire marshal and the assistant fire marshal that provide the training for the fire fighters?
Do they contract out those services to outside groups to provide that training?
As a matter of fact, we have two new training programs that are being offered through the Municipal Training Organization, and one of the first fire projects that was just done here in Iqaluit had close to 25 participants.
And that went very well.
I just asked, who actually delivered that training?
When I attended the graduation I was led to believe that there was good number of participants that took part in forming and combining the resources to be able to complete that program, but I’m just going to ask Mr. Rich to explain this further, as to what the different parties were used to run the program.
First of all, we have a training officer on staff.
One of the assistant fire marshals’ primary responsibility is training based in Iqaluit, and he’s responsible for helping to develop and design training programs for Nunavut.
We also have a collaborative arrangement with the Manitoba fire marshal’s office.
So, we have the right to use the materials and the courses and the programs that they’ve developed and adapt them to Nunavut.
The particular course the minister is referring to was originally developed about a year-and-a-half ago by the assistant fire marshal based on the Manitoba program.
It’s an eighty-hour level one training course.
The delivery of the course itself… .
The instructors for the course were a collaborative group of individual involving both officers, assistant fire marshals from Nunavut, and also officers from the Iqaluit Fire Department who would already have that training, who were assisted in the training of the program.
At other times when we are running training programs we may bring in an outside individual who has particular expertise and then the assistant fire marshals run courses within their area of expertise.
Interesting note that it is the assistant fire marshal who is delivering the training to fire fighters and the fire marshal has a report saying that they have inadequate training.
I guess I just kind of wondered how you balance or justify that given the fact there is no outside lining the fire marshal’s report of all this, basically the dire needs that our fire fighters are in, in the territory, and with no increase in fire training, I am just wondering, how do you explain that one?
And, are there going to be any plans to develop more training for firefighters so that they can do their jobs better and safer?
As I indicated earlier, the program that was offered here took good effort of a number of resources. And, the levels of training of different firemen, assistant chiefs, or chiefs will vary and it is not uncommon, especially here in Nunavut, that the people who have taken certain types of training will be asked to assist in delivery of the other training programs, especially if they have instructor qualifications and where appropriate cases of wanting to better deliver these programs and the people have taken part of the training, have also been asked to take part in delivering of some programs.
So, the firefighters will go through a lot of processes, whether their previous courses will be recognized, to also identify the needs for training in other parts of the job.
I am just wondering, one of the concerns that I have… . I know the member, the firefighters that live in my riding, and they all live in Iqaluit, and I am sure other firefighters, volunteer firefighters across the territory, probably were not all that impressed by the fact that they are being told that there are sub-standard firefighter capabilities in Nunavut by the organization that is supposed to be in charge of training them and making sure that they know how to do their job.
With that, is there going to be any plan to put more money in the budget to deliver more training and higher levels of training to firefighters so that, depending on the situation, they have the adequate training required to handle their responsibilities?
Yes, I think we have definitely been in the right path with the MTO because they are able to find more outside resources and funding to deliver better training programs.
And, as a result of the learning experiences from a number of fires throughout Nunavut, just to mention a few: one in Clyde River; Repulse Bay; here in Iqaluit, those definitely have hard lessons for everybody. The learning process from those fires especially calls for us to identify specific needs, which the MTO has been very successful in identifying, and contracting partners to deliver more training programs.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. These supports have come out until like after the one here and one fire that was in their home community.
Mr. Minister, the school in Pangnirtung, when that burnt, I know that was a while ago… .
It is my understanding that one of the areas that was identified as an issue was the fact that it was in a crawl-space, in an enclosed area that was not covered by a sprinkler system, and there was a recommendation to identify that, to try and address that. And then, how many years ago was that, and then here we go last year having another one, the same exact situation happening.
When they produce those reports with those recommendations, what happens to them?
Do they just make that one sit on a shelf or how do we make sure that they address some of those requirements and needs to be able to keep things like that from happening?
Because they do not just do it to generate paper, I mean there are some pretty serious recommendations.
The discussions I have had with my senior staff on the reports and the results outstanding from fire-related issues and inspections… .
We have two of these reports and with the information that we obtained through the reports we definitely made contact with, switched partners, with MTO to try and better identify training needs, and also it gave us the opportunity of going back to visiting what sprinklers are and what their intentions are in the first place.
So, from these reports, I can assure the member that we have been writing logs and as a result getting a lot of current information as to the types of buildings that we are dealing with here in Nunavut. Also as a result, the preparedness programs that firefighters meet throughout Nunavut have certainly come into light and positive things have come out just in the last few months, especially the last year; I am looking at the number of fires.
From these reports, when they look at codes and stuff, some of the things that were required, for example, the most recent one here in Iqaluit with the Joamie fire… .
The access hatch to the crawl-space where the fire seemed to have started was located quite away, I think 15 meters underneath the school, with very small areas in which the firefighter has to try and crawl underneath, with the airtank on, and try and get at it.
I am just wondering if something like that is addressed for them. Looking at making changes to codes as a result of findings like that that might have been one of the factors in the inability of the fire department to be able to get access to it, to be able to get in there and put it out.
For code changes like that, if he recommends a note, it says that in it that is something that needs to be fixed… .
How do you guy address that?
Is that something that is just a code department that can be done through regulation, or does it have to come through some kind of a safety act or something like that to be able to try and keep these kinds of things from happening again?
With the overall effort to try and prevent these kinds of fires from happening, plus with the report that came out, a number of things have happened.
One of the obvious things that has been done is an inspection of all schools in Nunavut, or rather throughout the summer, where corrections were needed to help us prevent fires. And, just as a point, Mr. Chairman, the codes are in the regulations.
Mr. Tootoo: For now?
My last one for now.
I understand the code requirements in regulation, and they can be changed by regulation, and then talk about the access things in there, and you think of moving them someplace that is a little more accessible, and is there some kind of code requirement as to how those access places, or hatches, or whatever you want to call them are to be secured, is there a pad-lock on them, or is there something that can come off easy?
You know, is it from the inside, is it from the outside?
Is there some kind of a requirement on how they are suppose to be secured so that in the event that somebody that needs to get in there, that they’re able to?
I really don’t have the right information to inform you, to give my colleagues the correct or the proper answer.
So, I’m going to ask my deputy minister to respond to that question.
Yes, access hatches on crawl-spaces are required in the code.
The reason for the locking of the access hatch being on the inside is because of vandalism issues, and that generally is an accepted practice.
The code doesn’t in fact say whether it has to be on the inside or whether it has to be on the outside.
And, that is the reason that is fire departments are to have it in the training equipment so that they in fact can remove the hatches.
And usually they do.
They have the penetrating equipment that allows them to break off the hatches regardless of whether or not they’re secured on the inside or the outside.
I just want to comment on a couple of things.
Search and rescues… . There are a lot of people in the Coast Guard who help out. Some charter airlines also help out.
For example, in Cambridge Bay, we have a charter airline that probably contributes $65- 100,000 annually.
It’s those direct costs they don’t invoice for. A lot of people help out.
I want to ask the minister about appraisals on government buildings and hamlet buildings.
A couple of years ago, we had buildings that burnt down and we discovered that they were underappraised.
And then we looked at loss control consultants’ appraisals, we discovered that the consulting company had underappraised many of our municipal buildings. I’m wondering if the minister could advise us or tell us if the all the buildings, including government buildings, are properly appraised for northern construction costs or replacement costs.
Currently, the appraisals continue to be done and it is still ongoing work, which I don’t have final figures for today.
It’s very important work.
It should get done as quickly as possible in case we have a major loss.
We talked about it during our discussions, we were setting up the hamlets.
We had a situation in Cambridge Bay where if we had a major catastrophe, we could lose $16- to 20 million of building goods in one stroke.
One wonders about that. Our buildings were underappraised. I think they should be appraised as quickly as possible to determine replacement costs before we have another major disaster.
But, I’d like to talk more about inspections of buildings.
We have high-tech buildings in Nunavut now.
We have sprinkler systems and fire alarms, and you wouldn’t think of it as it being difficult, but you require a very sophisticated inspection service.
They have to fly in people from south with all the skills to inspect buildings, and it could be quite expensive, and I’m wondering if the minister could comment on whether his department is working with the hamlets, and I guess with his own department, to make sure that all the sprinkler systems, alarm systems in Nunavut are being inspected and upgraded.
I’m just going to raise the point here Mr. Chairman, that even some buildings without sprinklers are in code compliance, so it doesn’t refer to all the buildings.
Mr. Chairman, (interpretation) not all the buildings have to follow the codes and we do annual inspections on government units with stream course.
So that is how we monitor them.
In Cambridge Bay, the hamlet has a contract with Public Works to inspect all Public Works buildings, including their own buildings.
We don’t have people on staff who have those qualifications to inspect the sprinkler systems and the alarms systems.
If you don’t have an electrician in your community, or an electrical company that is qualified to do those inspections, we have to bring them in from outside, usually from Edmonton or somewhere here in Nunavut; it can add up quite fast. $20,000 to $30,000 of bills.
But, if you don’t do it, don’t have it done, then there is a major loss that could work against you, compromise your insurance coverage.
I am wondering if the minister could comment on that.
I can only agree with the member that we had the inspector in places where needed them, but in some cases, inspectors have also been brought from Yellowknife.
We are right now just setting up a system to track the standards of our buildings, especially when you look at the age, condition, and the number of inspections that are done on these units.
I would like to switch topics for now, to talk about airports and emergency response.
In Cambridge Bay, we have an airport. I am not sure if it is like this across Nunavut, but in Cambridge Bay, the airport falls under the municipal boundaries.
I think it’s run by Nunavut Airports, but we have a volunteer firefighting department in Cambridge Bay that is trained to fight fires on a typical fire that you find in town.
If you had a situation where you had to respond to an airplane crash and fuel fire at the airport, our folks aren’t trained for that kind of emergency.
When we talked about it a few years ago, we wondered what would happen if our volunteers responded to a fire at the airport: would they be insured; would they have training; would they be covered by Workers’ Compensation?
All that sort of stuff.
I don’t think we have had a definitive answer on that.
I wonder if the minister and his staff could comment on that.
If this were question period, I would take it as notice, but Mr. Chairman, I am going to ask my deputy minister to see if he could shed some light on this.
There have been discussions at various times between various authorities responsible for airports, which is now the Department of Economic Development and Transportation and the Department of Community and Government Services, about fire responses.
The fire departments in a community, whether it be a small hamlet or whether it be in the larger one, do in fact have the ability to assist each other.
I might use a reverse example: the airport fire department assisted the Iqaluit Fire Department in the Joamie School fire.
That doesn’t in fact change their liability.
They are authorized or approved to be, in fact, firefighters.
In terms of Workers’ Compensation, I really don’t have the specific ability to respond on that.
It has not been brought to my attention that there is a particular issue in that area.
If you have some specific information, or a specific indication that might be a problem, we’d certainly be happy to follow up on that with Workers’ Compensation.
I guess I will think about the future because in Cambridge Bay we get daily jets into our community, but we don’t have a firefighting department at the airport, nor do we have the equipment to fight an airplane fire, a fuel fire at the airport.
There are a lot of fuel tanks around there, it could be a major disaster.
Our community fire department, the trucks we have, are supported by water.
That leads to my next question, Mr. Chairman.
What emergency response plan do you have?
You know, 25 communities in Nunavut… . Does each community have an emergency response plan to plan for contingencies, disasters? Are they all in place, and are they updated?
Yes, I believe most, if not all, of these can be there, just to have it expanded.
I guess if you have a situation in Cambridge Bay where the airport is not owned by the municipality, you could have two emergency response plans.
You could have one for the hamlet at large and then you have one for the airport.
So, I am wondering if the minister could comment on how you mesh emergency response plans when we have two or more in a community under different organizations. Who would take the lead?
For the airports, Economic Development and Transportation is responsible, and they’re there to work with the communities.
Any further questions, Mr. Peterson?
Mr. Peterson: Just a final comment on that.
Would the two departments work together to make sure that each municipality has an emergency response plan in there to support each other and designate who takes the lead in the event of a disaster at the airport?
I’ll go a step further: we will also work with the communities to make sure this is done.
Just off the last response I got from the deputy minister, he indicated that access hatch was locked from the inside and whatever the equipment is that he is talking about, intrusion equipment or whatever it is, is to be able to pop off that door.
I understand there was maybe two feet or three feet, barely, underneath there for the firefighters to have to go underneath and fifteen meters to be able to get to the hatch.
The equipment that they have for that, is that something that is portable and small and can be able to work in those types of limited, confined spaces?
I am not sure if we have the necessary information in front of us to be able to determine if in fact there was supposed to be this little certain device at that specific or particular time.
However, in my conversation with the staff, I was also led to believe that the small space that has been questioned was still in code compliance.
In talking to my colleague from Cambridge Bay, maybe they can work with the department, with the municipalities, and that, and I am just wondering what role, if any, that the fire marshal’s office, whether it be the fire marshal himself or the assistant fire marshal, whoever, would have to say in a situation where you have a large fire, in working with the local fire department to provide any assistance. Is there any type of formal protocol in place?
The fire marshal, the assistant fire marshal, apparently they have the qualifications and the years of experience, being in their capacity, where they have some valuable advice to provide to any fire department, I am sure.
I am just wondering if there are any type of protocol to allow that to happen, and does it happen?
I will have my DM respond because my DM has been working very closely with the fires issue.
The local command at any fire fight is the responsibility of the fire chief on site, or the designated authority on site, the fire chief or the assistant fire chief on site.
If there is outside individuals who are available, who can give assistance, such as an assistant fire marshal, or a fire marshal, if they are requested to give assistance by a fire chief, they can and will give assistance.
Another thing that was brought up in the context of the questions from my colleauge from Cambridge Bay is on how the minister and the deputy mentioned the fire department at the airport.
I understand that they have almost a $1 million firetruck that is out there and a lot of resources to go along with that, and people.
I am just wondering if, given the close proximity of the existing city fire department, and I would imagine the lack of resources that both the city and the fire department have, and with the fiscal restraints that the department is facing… . I am sure that the airport fire department is running into to the same problems with just barely having enough money to operate.
Is there any thought of looking at combining the fire fighting opportunities together to be able to give a bigger pool of resources and equipment and people to be able to better address any of the situations that might happen here in Iqaluit?
My deputy will answer that question.
Chairman: Mr Rich.
There are working arrangements and agreements between the city fire department and the airport fire department.
One of the difficulties of having the joint fire department is that the moment the airport gets involved offsite in a fire, it then changes the status of the airport and the airport fire situation.
For instance, in the case of the fire that happened in the city last summer, where the airport fire department did respond, it required a notice to airmen to be sent out that there was no fire trucks.
The fire trucks were not in fact on duty at the airport because they were responding to the fire in the city.
So, that is the complicating factor.
Yes, there is sharing of equipment, and there can be sharing of resources, but also one still needs to maintain the response that the airport has, that it needs to have, because of the very busy airport that we have in Iqaluit, and at the same time the response that is required all the time here in the city of Iqaluit.
You pull the resources together, you are going to have more people in one spot and more resources to do training and more resources for equipment.
More people… . It is not very often you are going to have a fire that is going to require everyone to go out.