EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
With that being the case, the Nunavut government has given us information that they would be open and transparent.
For that reason, there are some questions that have come about in regard to the Minister’s Statement at that time and it would have been better if we were to ask questions with respect to housing allocation.
I think there are about 210 houses that are needed.
With this in mind, I made a motion and with that, there are a lot of people in Nunavut who would like to hear more about the allocation to be provided to their community. Some communities have received housing and some communities have not received as much.
I would like to receive clear responses to the questions that will be posed to the minister, Mr. Chairman.
We heard the minister’s opening comments before Mr. Tapardjuk made his comments. I wonder if there are any members who would like to respond to the opening comments of the minister.
Welcome, minister and your officials, Alain Barriault, who has been working for a long time, and (interpretation ends) the Chairman of the Board, Eugene Lysy.
Welcome. (interpretation) I have worked with him for quite some time and I have known him for over 30 years. It was the first time he travelled to the Kitikmeot region as an executive director.
I think it was in 1974 that he was the executive director for the Kitikmeot Inuit Association as a communications person, and I would like to welcome him.
(interpretation ends) Mr. Chairman, my point is really not so much about the waiting list because it deals with the current allocation of housing that the federal government is going to be funding. We are grateful, obviously, for the $100 million.
I think, during the last few years, at least with the term of this mandate, we inherited a bit of a challenging situation with the experience that this current Assembly inherited from the previous other administration.
I think it was a bit confusing for a while with respect to how the previous administration handled the whole stock of $200 million worth of public housing.
With the help of many individuals, including the Auditor General and special audits that were conducted, I think we have learned quite a bit. I think now we are getting onto much more solid footing.
The fact that the Nunavut Housing Corporation has become much more independent and has much more independent personnel, the advice that is provided to the minister, I think, is much more reliable now that there are checks and balances in place, whether it be at arm’s length or along with the territorial officials.
My point is that we now have a stock of housing that I think is proven in Nunavut, the existing ones that are being maintained. As well, we still have very challenging long-term housing needs.
That’s the area that I want to focus on. We still need over 3,000 units in the long run.
Mr. Chairman, what I want to say is this: in the last statement the minister made in May, on the second page, second paragraph, I think it’s one of the keys. He indicated that “By also including community-specific construction costs and taking into consideration community capacity to absorb additional construction…” That begs a very important question to us.
Now, the Nunavut Housing Corporation is a not-for-profit corporation. It isn’t supposed to make any money.
It’s like a charitable arm of the government to provide public housing, but all the 25 communities charge municipal services at the highest costs available in Nunavut for municipal services, for electricity, as well as the land costs.
If you look at municipal lots, I don’t think Nunavut Housing gets any special rates whatsoever.
My point is: will the minister negotiate with our partners throughout Nunavut, municipalities at all levels, to try and reduce special rates for land and development costs, as well as the municipal rates for water and sewage and electricity much like some of the charitable organizations are normally accorded?
If these were considered and the minister was to obtain them from our partners in Nunavut, the available funding to build houses would definitely increase.
The information I have is this: for municipal services alone, primarily for water, the Nunavut Housing Corporation pays $43 million.
So my question is this: how many houses can you build for $43 million?
That’s not the total cost. The total cost that the Nunavut Housing Corporation pays for all municipal and power rates is about $83 million.
Someone’s making money out of the Nunavut Housing Corporation and we’re losing out in providing much needed public housing.
I just wanted to make those statements as a preamble before we start asking direct questions. (interpretation) Thank you.
You will have an opportunity to ask questions.
I recognize you, Mr. Ningark.
On general comments, in the hon. minister’s opening comments before this committee, I think we all understand the reality of housing needs in this territory.
The reality is that we are in a housing crisis. Each and every community knows that. There are families who understand what the real housing crisis is all about, and I have that in my community.
Last week, I was in Repulse Bay and had the opportunity to visit the family of a widow head of the household living in a four-bedroom home.
There are 21 people living in that house and none of these people are employed.
She told me that at times, there are 23 or 24.
That’s real. I feel for every community, every family across Nunavut, across the board, but I have seen the reality back in Repulse Bay.
Mr. Chairman, what can we do?
The reality is that you allocate. We can talk about methodology, how you allocate homes in the territory, but I think the reality is that we have to base what we do on need.
I have the real need in my community and I will be asking questions as we get into the discussions later on.
I’ve got one suddenly.
On page 2, it states that they were going to look after the people who are lacking housing.
They were going to get billions of dollars from the federal government to the homeless people in Canada.  Residents of Nunavut, I believe it was last year, were given $94,000 from the federal government to go towards homelessness.
To date, how much have we received from the federal government towards homelessness or lack of housing?
The housing and homelessness strategy was thought to have been given to us, as it appears.
In my constituency, there are many adults who lack housing. They are not suffering from inadequate space in their home. They don’t have a home.
They have absolutely no home. Some are orphaned.
Some have no husband.
Some have been kicked out from their homes. Some return to their community. Because of lack of housing, they are homeless.
What I would like to know is how much the Nunavut Housing Corporation has been given by the federal government towards homelessness.
I’m aware of the funding that was given to Kugaaruk in the amount of $94,000 when the whole amount for all of Canada was something like $2 billion.
I didn’t state that you could ask questions at this time. There are two people who wished to make general comments and I stated that I didn’t have any more names on my list.
I will give you this opportunity.
I would like to state to my colleagues that I no longer have any names on my list.  We can now enter into question period.
Please raise your hand if you wish to speak. For those who have questions, please raise your hand if you wish to ask questions so that I can write down your name.
Mr. Enook, you can ask your question now.
Good afternoon, hon. minister and your officials.
As the people of Nunavut, it would be good if we could get the same information. Before I ask a question, the first thing I would like to know is the housing set-up.
If they’re not in here, you can stop me.
When we have consistent understanding, it’s usually better for people.
Maybe you can tell me and the people of Nunavut how the local housing authority is handled.
How connected are they to the NHC? How is the local housing authority connected to the president of the Nunavut Housing Corporation?
If I understand the question correctly on how connected the housing authority board is to the Nunavut Housing Corporation, as the Minister of the Nunavut Housing Corporation, I am responsible for appointing the housing authority into each community that requests that. We do go through a process in trying to get the best available board member at those times for those communities that are under housing authorities.
I am sorry if I didn’t make myself clear.
The question that I was trying to ask is that I think there are local housing authorities and local housing organizations.
Are there two entities working for the local housing authority? How are they working with the Nunavut Housing Corporation?
Maybe that is a little clearer.
Mr. Chairman, in most communities, there are local housing organizations or associations that are elected locally for the board.
The housing authority is designated through my staff and me for appointing the board. Usually, when it gets to the stage where there is some indication that there may be some reporting or financial difficulties that housing is facing locally, we do assign housing authority boards to try and alleviate some of the issues that they’re having within the housing organization in the community.
There are only five communities that are under housing authorities at this time.
What type of authority does the local housing authority board have? Are they just the advisors? Can they make a decision for their own community of what they would like to do?
Secondly, who does the local housing authority board report to, if there is such a thing?
A local housing authority board is usually set up to alleviate some of the issues that the community may be facing regarding the operations of housing itself.
The authority that they are given is done through an agreement with the Nunavut Housing Corporation, and it’s basically oversight of the operations of the local housing organization there to make sure that the reporting and financial policies are adhered to.
Again, as I indicated there, there are five communities that are in that situation. It’s more or less on community-specific issues that may be there.
There may be different agreements between communities and the Nunavut Housing Corporation.
In order for my own complete understanding of this issue, let me use this example.
In Pond Inlet, there is also a long waiting list for housing. Is the Pond Inlet housing association board the last to comment on who should be allocated housing and they don’t have to go to other levels in order to be approved or they don’t need to report on their decision?
Can the housing association determine who will be allocated a unit?
The Mittimatalik Housing Association is an elected board and they do have a say in where the allocations go.
The waitlist varies from time to time and, for the most part, the allocating is done locally, depending on the certain circumstances within the community.
I’m just trying to get information so I know the system.
They said that the local housing association has a say.
Are you telling me that the local housing authority board is not a decision-maker?
As you said, they have a say. My question was: do they have authority to say who’s going to get housing or not?
The local housing boards in certain communities, in Pond Inlet, are authorized to allocate units using the point rating system, which is the same throughout all the communities in Nunavut.
Mr. Chairman, the point rating system is dependent on the situation of the applicants on a waiting list. For the most part, the policies within the local housing organizations are strictly adhered to, unless there are special circumstances that may be overridden by the Nunavut Housing Corporation through the regional directors’ offices.
It was stated that the decision can be overridden if special circumstances occur.
Can you give me an example why the decision of the local housing authority would be overridden?
I don’t have the specific numbers, but I can give an example of where the member is asking. In some cases, there are medical situations that apply to a tenant who is seeking housing through the local housing organization. Under certain circumstances, if there are medical or other unusual circumstances, the decision by the local housing organization can be overturned to suit the specific issue that may be raised in the community.
Thank you, (interpretation ends) hon. minister. (interpretation) Is the local housing authority board connected or do they have authority to work with according to the procedures? Can they work with the Nunavut Housing Corporation board?
The appointed housing authority does have policies and rules to abide by. They do the best they can to oversee the administration in the local housing organization. Usually a housing authority is to help alleviate some of these issues that may relate to financial difficulties faced within a local housing organization and come up with ways to alleviate or get the problems and issues alleviated.
I apologize if I didn’t make myself clear in my question.
Maybe I’ll ask it another way. Are local housing authority boards connected or do they work with or do they have to make a report to the Nunavut Housing Corporation? If they’re connected that way, how does it work?
All boards are required to report to the Nunavut Housing Corporation. In some cases, it’s monthly and in some of the cases where there are some situations that need fixing in a certain community, they report biweekly.
They do go through a management agreement with the Nunavut Housing Corporation.
Mr. Enook (interpretation): Thank you. I also thank the minister for providing clarification.
How connected is the Nunavut Housing Corporation board to the minister? How are they able to work with the minister?
The Nunavut Housing Corporation board is well connected to my office, the minister’s office. We work together to come up with plans to try and address the major housing shortages we have in Nunavut.
In fact, Mr. Chairman, I do give a letter of expectation directly to the chairman of the board.
It’s a lot clearer to me now.
Mr. Chairman, I have another question because I want to have good understanding and we need to have good understanding.
Can the minister explain some more to me and the people of Nunavut how the houses were allocated, who brought them up first, where they go next, and then where they have to go before they go to the house?
I forget quite easily, so if you can remind me of how the procedure goes before everything goes to the Assembly.
At the end of the day, the proposals do come to cabinet; to myself and then to cabinet, the Executive Council, for a final decision.
The allocation we wanted as a government was to be fair and transparent.
That’s the direction that was given to the Nunavut Housing Corporation, to come up with a methodology that would try to be the fairest way of allocating units to the communities in Nunavut.
Mr. Chairman, it’s very difficult.
We appreciate the $100 million from the federal government, no doubt about that, but it still doesn’t alleviate the needs in Nunavut.
At this time, we’re still short by over 3,500 units.
The methodology was approved by the board of directors. I brought it up to the Executive Council for their review and it was approved from there.
If I wasn’t clear in my question, I’m sorry.
I didn’t think I got an answer.
Maybe if I ask it this way.
When funds are allocated to build houses, such as the $100 million, once it has been publicized, who initiates the allocation or building houses?
Is it the housing corporation president?
Who initiates this procedure? I know that when they need approval from the House, it has to be approved by the ministers first.
Can you explain to me who initiates it once they announce that this money is available? Who has to approve? What is the procedure for this?
Mr. Chairman, the initiation usually comes from cabinet, the Executive Council.
The direction was to find the fairest, most transparent way of allocating units to Nunavummiut.
From there, it goes to the housing corporation to devise a plan with the assistance of the board to come up with a methodology that would be the fairest and transparent of all.
When we went to cabinet, it was approved at that level.
The way I had understood it was that the Nunavut Housing Corporation, it is given to the ministers as a recommendation, then the cabinet. That’s not the way.
It’s reversed. The minister’s office makes a plan and then they give it to the Nunavut Housing Corporation.
Is that how I understood it?
The direction on coming up with the most fair and transparent way to allocate units is a direction that comes from the government itself through the Nunavut Housing Corporation. From there, they do find ways to try and come up with a methodology that would be the fairest of all. They do make their recommendation to my office as the minister responsible for the housing corporation, then that travels up to the next step, to the cabinet, and my cabinet colleagues to decide upon.
I don’t understand it at all.
First of all, there was a statement saying that we can build houses with $100 million. Who is the first person who gives the go-ahead to build houses in the communities?
Mr. Chairman, with the procedure, who is the individual who allocates houses to certain communities and where they can go?
If I understand that question correctly, there’s no individual who makes this decision.
It was the Nunavut Housing Corporation board working with Nunavut Housing Corporation officials to try and determine how to maximize the investment dollars of the federal government.
It’s to try and devise a plan where we can stretch and maximize and come up with the most number of units for Nunavummiut with a plan and that took a lot of people.
It did not take one individual to decide that.
The allocations going to these communities were decided at the end of the day by cabinet itself through the recommendations and the work of Nunavut Housing Corporation officials and the Nunavut Housing Corporation board.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Taptuna. (interpretation ends) Mr. Enook, you have six seconds.
Mr. Enook: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the six seconds you have given me.
(interpretation) I will go to questions later.
The Nunavut Housing Corporation Board of Directors collaborating with the staff are the ones who make a recommendation saying where those are going to be built and in which communities.
Yes, it takes a lot of officials from the Nunavut Housing Corporation and the board, with the direction from cabinet and me, to come up with the most transparent and fair way of allocating units to communities. Of course, it’s based on needs rather than wants.
The methodology is based on how to equalize some of the differences between the communities. As you know, the percentage for the needs of each individual community is different. If you based the allocation just on the waiting list alone, there would be only two communities that would get housing allocated to them.
Again, for those individuals who already asked questions, you will have an opportunity to speak more than once when every member wishing to speak has spoken.
I want to deal with the housing issues, the housing supply, more than anything else.
I think we all know that it’s quite clear, as MLAs, that the Nunavut Housing Corporation has the mandate to build housing for Nunavutmiut.
The Nunavut Housing Corporation Act is really quite straightforward. That’s where we get the information for what the role of the Nunavut Housing Corporation is.
It’s right in the legislation, to provide public housing for Nunavutmiut, and that’s what I want to focus on.
With a limited supply available in terms of finances, let’s also be clear as MLAs that the Nunavut Housing Corporation is not the only housing developer in Nunavut.
There are many, including co-ops, who do supply some basic housing, as well as the private sector. In some centres, particularly here in Iqaluit, there is a growing housing market, particularly the apartment units here and there that are unlike any other, that are not at all managed by the Nunavut Housing Corporation.
Rankin Inlet has a mix of housing, not only the Nunavut public housing built by the Nunavut Housing Corporation but also by the private sector, but these are not affordable housing.
I think this committee’s mandate is to maximize affordable housing for Nunavutmiut so that local housing associations can allocate and be involved in supplying and allocating homes to those who really need housing.
My question to the minister and your team, if you would encourage them also to answer the question, I think a good example with this $100 million is a good beginning. For $100 million, the Nunavut Housing Corporation is proposing to build 210 units.
That’s a good sign and I think that’s the beginning of the horizon.
If we can keep that amount of housing for that amount of dollars and whatever money we can get, whether it be from the consolidated revenue fund of the Nunavut government, we can supply some housing, but there are impediments and these impediments restrict development.
I would like to ask the minister: how can we improve incentives to supply and build more housing in Nunavut?
The cost of building homes is staggering and maintaining housing with respect to the municipal services is staggeringly so high.
Is it possible to reduce the cost and, if so, what are the examples that the minister and your officials can give to us to reduce the cost of building homes in Nunavut?
Hon. Peter Taptuna: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that question from the committee member.
In constructing public units for Nunavummiut through the Nunavut Housing Corporation, it is staggering.
There are some lots that have to be considered and the costs have to be considered for that just to put the unit up in some of these communities. I understand, from some of the information that we got prior to allocating units, that in some communities, lots can cost up to $600,000.
It is an impediment for sure.
Mr. Chairman, if I can, I would like Mr. Barriault to elaborate a little more on the details of the impediments the Nunavut Housing Corporation faces daily in trying to alleviate the critical housing shortage in Nunavut.
In addition to land costs and land development costs, there’s also the issue of land availability.
The current land development practices with most municipalities are such that they’re currently trying to fund all land development themselves and, therefore, have to recover those costs before they can proceed to develop more land.
That generally means, unfortunately for many communities, that there’s no developed land available and that municipalities do not proceed with land development until they have buyers in place.
When something such as the Nunavut Housing Corporation’s $100 million investment through Canada Mortgage and Housing is announced, we’re then approaching municipalities to start developing land in areas where developed land does not exist.
That’s really creating a challenge. In areas such as Iqaluit, there are many infrastructure challenges that the city is facing and that is very much limiting their ability to develop more land to make it available for construction.
These types of issues are really a challenge, not just for the Nunavut Housing Corporation, but for homebuilders and business owners and others who are looking to build in communities.
Lack of developed land is also, therefore, going to be impeding economic growth of communities.
It is a big challenge and it is something that I have presented at the Nunavut Association of Municipalities, the Nunavut Association of Municipal Administrators, at the several mayors’ conferences as well, and had discussions with Community and Government Services.
We need to find better approaches for land development that’s more affordable for municipalities and for the end users of the land as well, but that’s only one of the pieces.
Utility costs are, of course, an expense that we all have to contend with, whether it’s the housing corporation or private sector development.
That’s part of the Igluliuqatigiilauqta, the GN’s Long-term Comprehensive Housing and Homelessness Strategy and framework.