EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
I know talking to the Department of Finance is one thing but can we get some kind of commitment that we will receive that document and hopefully we receive it today?
Ms. Hine will answer that, please.
As I said, I’m sure we can talk to the Department of Finance on that and see what we can provide to the member.
That would be plural. Not to the member but to the members. We would all like to see that.
Earlier you mentioned the needs assessment and you completed that, the cost estimate for a new building. I believe that was done by Community and Government Services. Can we receive that document?
By yes, will you provide us today?
As soon as possible and as soon it is made available.
We can always take a break while the officials get that document.
She said as soon as it is made available.
I take that you are sending a message through this broadcast to your officials that they will provide it to us today.
Hon. Levinia Brown: Yes, I’d like to make that available as soon as I can and the staff are working on it right now.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for that answer.
Can the Minister tell how long she requires her staff to make that document available?
The staff are in research right now for that answer and it will be made available to you as soon as we have it.
I hate to keep harping on it but one thing that I have learned after three years here is you can’t take those statements at face value: as soon as they are available. I am trying to pin it down. I’d like to have it today, in fact by six o’clock or earlier.
I am wondering if the Minister can make that commitment.
Yes, we’ll try and have that by six o’clock.
Perhaps the minister could clarify how large a document it is that she has to photocopy. Is it two inches thick or is it a couple of pages.
I don’t know how many pages it is but it is about an inch. So copying will take a while.
Last week, when the minister was here, Mr. Rafter mentioned that the lease cost was at 20 percent below the Government of Nunavut average lease cost. I asked what that figure was and Mr. Rafter wouldn’t provide it.
Can he provide that today?
I would like Mr. Rafter to respond to that.
On average, the average lease cost the Government of Nunavut leases is $22.
Can the minister clarify for us or tell us what type of software you use to project the lease versus buy analysis? What kind of assumptions do you put into that software program?
Again, I will ask Mr. Rafter to respond to that.
Typically, and I didn’t prepare this lease/buy assessment, I am saying typically. When I do prepare these lease/buy assessments, it is done in an excel spreadsheet. You consider the present value of the annuity stream for the period in question and you just count that back to today’s dollars, and that’s compared to the actual purchase price of the facility and it is the basis for the lease buy analysis or in some cases it is done on a leased to construct comparison.
Mr. Peterson.  Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I thank the Mr. Rafter for that answer.
I had the time over last week to prepare my own Excel spreadsheet. I made some assumptions and used a risk premium, and interest rate of six percent, and that’s the other variable; I expect that I am not privy to that information you folks have, but when I crunched the numbers, the number my spreadsheet came back with was less than $12 million.
You told us earlier that it would cost the government $18 million to build a new building and then I think the total of all these lease payments over 20 years would be close to $15 million.
Your spreadsheet shows that you would be $3 million over and my spreadsheet shows that you would be $3 million under, so there’s a pretty wide discrepancy.
I’m not an expert on this kind of stuff but I do have a basic understanding of that. I wonder if you or Ms. Hine could take us through that. What kind of analysis, like step-by-step, how do you crunch those numbers to get to reach $18 million, which resulted in you making that decision to lease it so you’re going to save yourselves $3 million over 20 years?
Hon. Levinia Brown (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will get Mr. Rafter to respond to that so he could give us that clarification.
I am just opening up the leasing policy in terms of the guidelines but the value in terms of the cost of construction is provided by the technical experts within the Department of Community and Government Services. The lease/buy assessment is, or at least the construct assessment is then completed.
The various factors in terms of risks and interest rates, a proxy is used, that’s a 10-year bond proxy from the federal government, the Government of Canada, which is the basis of the interest rate. There is a small premium, I believe, of 1.6 percent is added into the total, and the calculations flow from that.
Can Mr. Rafter clarify for us again, I don’t have the lease activities report but I think several hundred millions of dollars are lease commitments in that report. It’s important that we have officials working in your department and also software that can sharpen the pencils a little bit.
Do you have people and software and enough resources in your department or in that division that can stay on top of all the leases that we have signed, and that are coming up for renewal, and future leases that will be negotiated?
I would like Mr. Rafter to respond to that, please?
The financial tools to perform the assessments are relatively straightforward. I don’t think there’s a requirement within government to find an application to perform these given the nature of the lease/buy assessments.
On the other hand the government does constantly face challenges in recruiting and retaining people from time to time, and this is one of those areas within the department that has had some difficulty, and staffing up has had some challenges. At one point six months ago, or a year ago, the department in this particular area was fully staffed.
It is not at this time.
I am not sure if that fully responds to the member’s question.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the minister and Mr. Rafter for that answer.
I mentioned in my comments during the debate on the motion that we had to be concerned about our Government of Nunavut employees.
I don’t know how many people in this room have been to that building but there is quite a serious issue related to overcrowding, there’s not a proper flow, walls are being built that separate windows, you don’t have the airflow in the building, it’s about 20 years old, so the original interior design is out of date.
So I’m wondering if the minister can tell me if there are plans, if the government renews their lease, if there are plans to upgrade the interior of that office building so that the employees have a more modern and welcoming office environment to go to work to everyday.
Hon. Levinia Brown (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In one of the member’s questions, I think there was going to be $2.2 million for the renovation of the member’s concerns.
I know that they tried to do some renovations on it and after the agreement has been signed they will do renovations for the whole building, and they will have to use $2.2 million.
EDC will have to spend $2.2 million for the renovations of the whole building.
Perhaps the minister can clarify the $2.2 million. It is my understanding that is going to replace windows, doors, and other things of that nature and also the exterior of the building.
I am more interested at this point about tenant improvements, and improvements inside the building, in the office environment for the staff.
I will get Ms. Hine to respond to that question.
As the minister said part of the negotiation is for the landlord to complete $2.2 million on the building. Most of that will be code deficiencies and building upgrades. There will be some tenant improvements inside as well.
We’re in that part of the negotiations to finalize the list that will be covered by the $2.2 million.
Page J-11.
Just a couple of questions on there. I believe it was said earlier that there was a five-year option looked at but it would have been too costly for the GN if improvements were factored into it.
If I had rented someone a house, I would have to pay for the upkeep of that house out of the money that I made over the term of the lease.
It sounds like, okay, we’ll do these $2.2 million worth of repairs to the building but you’ve got to finance it.’
Why would we be financing those improvements if it belongs to the landlord, if he’d neglected it for this long to let it get to that point?
Why should we have to ... I’m not a property expert or anything like that but I wouldn’t expect a tenant if I was renting someone a house to have to finance any repairs, if neglected, to look after that over a period of time. So why would that even play a factor into the cost of the lease to us for their own neglect?
I will ask Ms. Hine to respond to that, please.
It’s known practice in landlord or in real estate law for the landlord look at recouping their costs. So in this situation where they’re doing major improvements to the building, it would capitalize those improvements over the life of the lease, and that is normal practice under real estate law, and basically, all landlords would look at recouping their costs over the lease term.
Just doing the math, though, I think I said earlier, and someone else mentioned earlier, probably in 1986 it was a $3 million or $4 million building.
Over the 20-year lease that we inherited, if it was $1.2 million a year that was in the first contract report, they have more than recouped their costs on that.
It’s at least a $15 million profit on that, which is a very good return on investment. So if they made $15 million on it and they’ve neglected it, why should we be financing $2.2 million for them to recoup costs over an asset that, if it was looked after properly over time, wouldn’t require that work that’s being done on there.
It’s normal upkeep.
So I mean again, I really question the logic of that. I mean those costs have been paid for ten times over already over the last 20 years.
I have a hard time understanding why the heck we should have to finance those repairs over something that they’ve neglected to look after for the last 20 years.
Mr. Rafter will respond to that, please.
I think the department does appreciate the comments and the statements that were just made.
One of the issues is that the department is negotiating a proactive maintenance program into the time of the lease.
Over the course of the proposed term of this lease arrangement, there would be a proactive maintenance and a draft schedule for a typical sort of building of this type and nature, which includes daily, weekly hours, monthly hours, quarterly, semi-annual, and additional maintenance.
In addition to that, the $2.2 million worth of improvements, that is the estimate in terms of the deficiencies, if you want, or the improvements that are required right now will become an asset of the Government of Nunavut.
I don’t want to call it an asset; more a liability in my mind.
One of the things that were mentioned earlier was that I don’t know whether it was called an analysis, or evaluation, or technical report, or whatever that you were looking at seeing at getting a copy.
That was as you indicated that was done by the Department.
Was that the last one that has been done or has there been any other technical evaluations done.
Could I please ask Ms. Hine to respond to that, please?
It was a third-party independent technical evaluation that was completed on that property and it was completed in 2006.
Since we are getting the one that you mentioned about, that your department did, would it be possible to get a copy of the third party evaluation as well? I don’t need it today but I would be very interested in going through both of them and see if they pretty much said the same thing.
So from that point, I’d like to at least get a commitment that it would be provided to Members at some point in the near future as well.
Hon. Levinia Brown: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Yes, I can agree to that member for that request.
We are on page Community and Government Services.
Branch Summary. Government Services.
Chairman: Agreed. Now, we will go to page J-12.
I’d like to ask the minister; first of all, I want to thank first of all the Fire Protection Services because I know they do hard work.
They do that preparing and during emergencies.
In regard to the fire prevention I hear that they are meeting in Rankin Inlet right now to do emergency preparedness and emergency services during aircraft emergencies. I just want to just find out from the minister who they are.
Are they are all from every community in Nunavut or just from the Kivalliq region?
Yes, this is very important … fire prevention and there is a lot more training going on.
All the communities in Keewatin are represented in that emergency preparedness workshop or course.
Yes, I agree with my colleague that it is very interesting to see such gatherings like that so that can be prepared if there was an emergency.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Madam Brown.
I didn’t hear properly. Are they representing all the communities?
And in regard to the aircraft are they using not just liquid/dry chemicals like on the land because it gets confusing.
If there was an airplane crash, can you state if they have dry chemical fire extinguishers?
Mr. Rafter will respond to that.
I did not quite fully understand the member’s question but airports have a number of emergency response vehicles for extinguishing fires at the airports. Some of that would include a spray foam-type chemical.
Mr. Curley: I know that has been an ongoing issue for many years for the fire prevention team members in each community that they would like to have more capability to use a spray foam-type of equipment, but whether or not they are sufficient is the question.
Could the minister give us the details of exactly which communities have that capability other than the water hose kind of fire equipment?
And if not, do you have a strategy of when you would be able to implement the first class type of spray capability to extinguish fires with respect to the airlines?
Yes, the member has been posing some very good, interesting questions and I would like to offer that we can obtain a detailed written response, if that’s acceptable to the committee.
Welcome, Mr. Simailak.
Yes, I appreciate it very much. I think it is not only myself but most of these communities would certainly like to see that information.
I’m not fully sure of whether or not that is covered by the Fire Marshal’s Report or not but I know that the communities are really looking forward to see improvements with the fire prevention equipment and so on.
I would appreciate it if you could table that detailed report to us so that we can at least communicate that as well to our communities. (interpretation) That’s all I have for now.
Madame Minister, I didn’t hear a question but if you wish to respond.
Yes, the training from the Fire Marshal’s Office is ongoing through Municipal Training Organization and they’re very positive.
The training is happening on an annual basis on the different level of regions and sometimes it’s altogether; it’s all three regions. So it’s very positive, and for sure, I will table what’s requested.
Chairman: Thank you, Madame Minister. (interpretation) We’re on (interpretation ends) Community and Government Services.
Protection Services. J-12 and J-13. Mr. Peterson.
On page J-18 of the business plan there are references to the Emergency Management Organization and Emergency Measures. The preparedness plan provides assistance to Nunavut communities creating their own plans.
I’m wondering if the minister could tell us: do all hamlets and the City of Iqaluit have emergency measures plans?
I would like to ask Ms. Hine, if she could answer that, please.
The answer is yes. All communities including Iqaluit would have their emergency management plans however a lot of those communities or a lot of those plans are outdated.
They’ve have been prepared a number of years ago and it is one of the priorities of this department is to work with the communities to ensure that plans are up to date and to meet I guess today’s emergencies that we are now faced with and would not have been faced with five or 10 years ago. So we are working with the communities to prepare those plans and we are making our staff available for those communities to move forward with those.
In every community there is probably one person or one organization that’s at the top if there is an emergency that initiates the process and knows the command centre. Can the minister tell me, in a typical hamlet in Nunavut, what organization or individual in the community would be at the command centre, the person that is directing everybody else?
Yes, that would depend on each community. Each community is set up differently but every community should have a response team.
Can the Minister clarify, each community should have one, but would that be likely the hamlet and if so would the person that called the shots be the mayor?
In communities it is usually the Hamlets and the Senior Administrative Officer.
Can the Minister tell me what type of training is provided to these individuals whether it is the mayor or the Senior Administrative Officer?
Is there a certain time of year that you bring them all to a training centre in Nunavut or do you send them at alternate times of year down to, I think there is a place in Ontario, Arnprior, Ontario where they train people for emergency preparedness. Can you clarify that for me?
Years ago I think the member and I remember the times when the mayors and the Senior Administrative Officers used to have to go away to training for emergency preparedness and that was through Colorado.
And now they have headquarters here to assist them and it is usually here in Iqaluit and the bigger centres.
I guess I missed out on a trip to Colorado … before my time.
But I never took any training in emergency preparedness. And that was the odd thing, I was mayor for four years and I was never offered any training. But we had emergencies.
So you just had to rely on your common sense and you develop your own chain of command. I think the mayors, councils and senior administrative officers should have training. There is always a chance of an emergency; you just don’t know when it is going to happen.
I want to ask about the search and rescue organization.
Can the minister tell us how many search and rescue organizations exist in Nunavut?
We don’t have the statistics available but we can get that but I would say that most communities would have search and rescue and Community and Government Services usually provides them with funding.
I think a couple of years ago we had the same question. At that time there were only 20 search and rescue organizations.
So that meant that there were a few communities without search and rescue organizations. In my opinion, I think search and rescue organizations should be formalized and fall under the jurisdiction of the hamlets, similar to the fire departments that receive that support from the hamlet.
Many search and rescue organizations are set up as non-profit societies, which require a board of directors and a lot of paperwork for them, and they have to do fundraising and other things.
I am wondering if the minister or her officials could comment whether there are any initiatives underway to consider bringing search and rescue organizations as an essential service to the community, bring them more under the jurisdiction of the hamlet councils similar to the way the fire department operates.
Ms. Hine will take that question.
That’s a very good suggestion from the member.
I can say that the department, over the last couple of months, have actually held three regional meetings on search and rescue: three workshops. We held one in Cambridge Bay, Rankin Inlet, and Iqaluit.
What we wanted to do is bring in all the stakeholders that are involved with search and rescue so that we can make sure that we have the best system in place.
Just to give you an idea of some of the stakeholders that we did have sitting around the table included Environment Canada, the RCMP, the Joint Task Force North, which is the military, we had the rangers, we had the Joint Rescue Coordination Centres, both air and marine, which is the federal, we had obviously officials from our department, Community and Government Services.
We also had hamlet officials, and community elders also participated.
We’re hoping that from these meetings, and these ongoing discussions, that we can improve the search and rescue committees, the structures, where they report to, and to get the feedback from all stakeholders.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the minister and Ms. Hine for that answer.
It certainly sounds like there is some positive work in that area. I look forward to receiving an update.
On the same page, page J-18 there is another reference for fire equipment for the Fire Marshall’s Office, Fire Protection Strategy.
I wanted to ask the minister a question about firefighters.
Most firefighters in Nunavut are volunteers and they provide a very valuable and essential service to the community, protecting their residents, houses, and buildings. Most times when you are responding to a fire you’re placing your life in danger.
Can the minister explain to me what types of insurance coverage are available to firefighters when they’re responding to fires, or participating in training, from the time they leave their house to the fire department, or the fire, and then they return home?
What kind of insurances are in place that is available to them so that should they be injured, or should they die, that they, and/or their families will be taken care of?
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Peterson. Minister Brown.
I will have Ms. Hine to respond to that question.
I don’t have the detailed information that the member is asking for. I believe it’s a policy, which is an opt-in policy, where it’s up to the volunteer firefighter, whether they participate or not but we can certainly provide that information for the members.
I would like to ask the minister if, in her opinion, does she believe that the firefighters should be covered with life insurance, workers compensation, all available insurances and coverage from the time they leave their house and report to the fire hall and then they go to the site of the emergency until they get back, should they receive coverage?
And in the event that they’re injured or perhaps even die that they are covered and that their families are looked after should something unfortunate happen to them?
That’s a very good point the member is raising and I totally agree with him. They are a very valuable contribution to our society and we value the volunteers and very, very much appreciate them, and recognize them.
We don’t live like 50 years ago, igloos never burnt down then, the snow doesn’t burn.
Nowadays I believe they should be covered and the families should be looked after and I agree with the member.
I thank the minister for agreeing with that comment.
Can the minister provide me with a commitment that she will table some information, or provide the members with information on the insurance coverages that are available for every hamlet in Nunavut to the volunteer firefighters?
What coverage are they entitled to or should be entitled to under Workers’ Compensation Board and any other program so that when they do respond or they are trying to decide whether to volunteer or they do volunteer and then they participate in training and responding to emergencies that they can respond, participate knowing fully that if anything happens to them they are going to be taken care of and their families will be taken care of, that they are not going to be left wanting.
They are volunteers, they are undertaking a dangerous assignment when they become volunteer firefighters, not like volunteers for minor hockey that might get a little puffed out trying to keep up with little kids, but when you respond to a fire anything can happen, and we have heard of many of our volunteer firefighters over the years across Canada who have died.