EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
There are no tests for smell.
Is there a test for sulphur or sulphur levels?
Is that something that is tested for and is it an additive in the gasoline or is it a natural component of it.
And also are there specified limits, if there is what those levels should be.
Sulphur is regulated through the specifications and by Environment Canada.
There are set limits for the amount of sulphur that are in fuel.
All the fuel that is in Nunavut does meet the current sulphur level specifications.
Environment Canada is setting new lower and lower limits.
These limits will be going down in July 2002 from the current .01 mass percent to .0195 mass percent.
So at that time fuel that is made by refiners will have to meet that or they will be in trouble with Environment Canada. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
What is ours at right now and how close is it to what the specs are and is there something that's changed.
I don't know if the department keeps track.
Or is it something that has gone up or down from previous years’ supplies.
The current sulphur levels are about 25% below the maximum allowable value.
These results can change from year to year.
I don't know what last year's results were.
But they have stayed fairly consistent from my opinion.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't know if the sulphur levels, I don't know what it does in there.
Is that something that could cause some type of a coating or an affect on the gasoline or any engine that seems to be leading to this?
Like it had the brown coating, the really dark coloured fuel.
I know sulphur is yellow.
Could that have something to do with it? Could the levels of sulphur have something to do with that in the fuel?
Chairperson (interpretation): Mr. Wispinski.
The sulphur in fuel can be many different types of compounds.
If there were, if you will, bad sulphur compounds, other tests would find that, such as the corrosion tests.
And the corrosion tests on all the fuel are okay for the Nunavut gasoline.
Would the levels or the burning of the sulphur in the fuel cause some kind of film inside, like I say a brown film.
With that not burning properly for whatever reason in the engine could that cause some type of a film or a coating or something in there to cause that problem.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you. Mr. Wispinski
I don't think sulphur would cause any of those deposits.
Sulphur is limited to control emissions.
It is an environmental standard for acid rain.
I guess that is one additive, if I understood Mr. Wispinski correctly, that is an additive to the fuel.
I wondered does he look at the other types of, in the analyses of the fuel they do. Do they look at what types of additives are in the fuel other than the sulphur or other possible additives that may be in there?
The Alberta Research Council, if we had to check for every possible additive in the fuel, we could spend years and a lot of money on that.
So it’s prohibitive to test for every possibility.
Again, with sulphur, it is present in fuel naturally, it is naturally found in crude oil and it goes through the refinery.
Sulphur is not an additive, it’s not put in gasoline purposely.
I’ll try to move along quickly, I know the members have questions that they’d like to ask as well.
On the gasoline, in the testing that you do, is there something called like a spectrum or a spectrogram that can be done to show the different levels of waves, wave numbers and different things like in the fuel to look for differences between gasoline and identify whether there may be contaminants in that gasoline.
There are many different possible tests that we can do and my lab is working hard at looking at other things that we can do besides what is on the list of tests that the Canadian General Standards Board specifies that we test against ours.
But it’s sometimes very hard to define things like that.
They can be there in very small quantities.
It’s very difficult to test for and find these things.
Your last question for now Mr. Tootoo and then we’ll move on to other members.
Mr. Tootoo: I was hoping the last one was going to be my last one but I have one more just for now.
In testing the gasoline, does the Alberta Research Council look for this on a regular basis?
Have you found anything different in those tests compared to fuel that we’ve received and that you’ve tested for us in the past?
In the way of different levels of possible contaminants or anything like that?
Other than noticing a difference in this year’s colour of the fuel, which again is not part of a fuel specification, we haven’t noticed anything in the specification tests that are different.
The members should be aware that you have 10 minutes to raise questions and then you’ll have your turn again later when you have a chance.
During the minister’s opening comments, he talked about complaints that were raised or brought to his attention and that latest step that has been taken is to send some samples to England.
Have they received results back?
We haven’t received the results from England.
We sent them and asked them to do tests.
I directed them to have additional tests in cold weather conditions.
It is taking a while because when they were being sent to England, samples had to sit in Montreal due to airline regulations.
We expect that tests will be done during cold weather conditions because you’re aware that our climate is very different here. As was stated earlier, there were concerns about the quality.
Could the minister respond in regards to what the gasoline looked like and the quality?
Has this problem been ongoing for several years?
To look at the gasoline, it was different, it has been like that for a while.
I’ll get Mr. Wispinski to respond further.  Chairperson: Mr. Wispinski.
If I understand, you’re asking me to comment on how it looked.
You’re referring to the colour.
The colour again, is not a specification.
It’s not regulated as to the operability or how it performs in an engine.
That’s why it’s not in any Canadian specification.
We know that the gasoline does not look dark like that and it does not have a gasoline smell even though the hunters are not experts, they realize that it’s different.
The colour and the smell are totally different than what we usually get.
The minister also stated too that it’s a different smell and colour.
There have been many communities that have been experiencing problems with the quality of the gasoline.
Would the minister be able to get the lab in England to do more analysis?
As an Inuk and as a hunter, I can tell you that I am concerned.
What we are doing now is the analysis of the quality of the gasoline.
They have told us that the quality of the gasoline is okay.
Right now, that’s really the only answer I can make to the hunters out there.
When we get the results we will pass it on to hunters out there.
If it is bad fuel then we will be able to replace that gasoline. I will get Mr. Wispinski to answer the other part of the question.
Chairperson (interpretation): Questions from the members.
I just want to expand on the answer that he gave.
What we’re planning on doing this week, the PPD officers are going around to the communities for the year-end.
We directed them to contact some people in the community, to collect some samples from their snowmobile tanks and what we’re doing is giving them to the Alberta Research Council to have them analysed.
Then from there we are going to wait for about two weeks or so before we get the results back.
Right now, we just directed them to collect some samples from the communities where we received complaints.
There’s five from this region and four from the Keewatin Region.
Sorry I have a cold.
The colour and the smell of the gasoline, people have noticed it is very different.
I wonder why it’s that different, what additives do they put in it.
I will get Mr. Wispinski to answer that question.
We don’t know why the colour and the smell is the way it is right now.
We are doing further laboratory analysis to see if we can isolate and find the reason why it is that way.
We now know that the colour and the smell will be analysed again.
The people of Nunavut know that it’s a different smell and a different colour but the people of Nunavut are also in a rush to find out the test results because they’re going to be going out hunting.
If the quality of gasoline is not good, the minister has stated that he would replace the gasoline for the people that have been complaining in the nine communities. What about the breakage of the snowmobiles and other equipment that have broken down due to this gasoline.
I went and visited the garage where the snowmobiles are repaired.
There is breakage in the pistons and the crankshaft.
It’s about three thousand dollars to have it repaired for parts and labour.
The hunters that are in this gallery right now don’t have three thousand dollars extra to spend on the repair of their machinery.
If there is bad gasoline, the minister said that he would have the gasoline replaced.
Would they be compensated for repairs too?
I cannot answer the member's question at this time, as long there is testing going on and the tests say there is nothing wrong with the quality of the gas.
I am not sure what the Government of Nunavut would be able to do in regards to compensating those people who have had their machinery break down.
We know that the hunters don't have an extra 3 thousand dollars to spend to have their machinery repaired.
We have not thought about this because we don't know yet whether there is something wrong with the gasoline.
According to the tests there is nothing wrong with it.
I am sure they want to find out from the government whether the quality of the gas has to do with the breakage of their machinery.
We have not had any complaints yet from last summer.
The first complaint that we had was from October of last year.
There was an explanation about the sulphur content. When Mr. Tootoo was questioning the person that analysed it he said it was 25%.
The question that I am going to be asking is about the sulphur. Mr. Iqaqrialu stated that when you burn it, it has a very black tar in it.
When you burn the gasoline there is a difference in the colour of the flame.
I just wondered if there is a difference when you burn it.
What is the difference between the gas that contains more sulphur and gas that does not have as much sulphur when you burn it? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Hon. Peter Kattuk (interpretation): I will get Mr. Wispinski to respond to your question.
Again the sulphur I stated was 25% below the regulated limit.
The results are around 750 parts per million and the limit is 1 thousand parts per million.
So that is 25% below that limit.
When fuel with sulphur is burned it forms sulphur dioxide and when this is released into the atmosphere it can cause air pollution.
This is why sulphur is a big issue in fuel quality throughout the world.
All environmental regulations are limiting the amount of sulphur to save the environment.
Again as far as operability or the durability of an engine, sulphur in most cases plays a limited role in that.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): Does the gasoline contain sulphur naturally or is it added. Does heating fuel have sulphur in it as well?
Mr. Wispinski: Could you repeat that last part of the question?
We were talking about sulphur in the gasoline.
Does heating fuel have sulphur in it as well?
Heating fuel or diesel fuel does have sulphur in it.
All fuel has sulphur in it.
The limit for heating fuel or diesel is 500 parts per million.
That’s the current limit right now.
They have to limit the amount of sulphur in the gasoline because it might be dangerous to the environment.
The individual said that there was about 700 parts per million or something.
If the sulphur is less, like last year we had very clear gasoline.
If they put more sulphur into the gasoline does the quality change?
I don’t have last year’s sulphur numbers in front of me.
The sulphur numbers that we find in the fuel right now are within the specified levels and I don’t feel that the sulphur is the cause of the colour in the fuel.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): If the sulphur increases, would that change the quality of the gasoline?
Even though it’s gasoline, when the sulphur increases, would that change the quality of it.
If the sulphur increased to above specification levels, then yes it would change the quality of the fuel but again, it’s below the specified value.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): I heard in the news on the radio that this gasoline is almost exactly identical to the ones that were used in the DEW line sites.
So, for that reason, if gasoline sits for a long time, would the sulphur increase?
Or, what kind of effect of vaporization have if it has sulphur and if it sits for a long time, what difference would it make?
The question about the sulphur, the sulphur would not increase.
The levels should stay fairly steady.
No fuel lasts forever as how long the fuel is stored affects it.
Fuel does not last forever.
It does have a shelf life and it should be used within a certain period of time depending on what fuel it is.
I think perhaps Ms. Makpah can answer the question of how long fuel is kept in Nunavut.
I am trying to think what the other part of the question was.
Again, fuel doesn't last forever.
Inventories are used though and maybe Susan can answer how long the fuel lasts.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): I haven't used up my 10 minutes yet.
The gas that we have right now is not liked by the people of Nunavut. Like someone said, there is black smoke when you light it up.
I just wondered whether it has something to do with the sulphur.
I am not sure whether they rotate the gas once in a while in the communities at the gas farms.
Like anything if it sits still for a long time, if it is a liquid and if it stays there for a long time it changes some parts of the mixture of the gas.
So I wonder if it has anything to do with that.
When fuel sits for a long time as far as changing and separating into things, solid material will settle out of it.
But I don't think it changes compositionally if it doesn't evaporate and as long it is in a closed container the composition of it won't change.
Again if the fuel is used regularly and if it doesn't sit for years and years then it is going to last for that period of time.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): The minister stated earlier that they sent samples to England and he also stated that the samples haven't come back yet to Canada.
Again we have other people in Alberta who are doing some of our samples.
I have worked in oil rigs and usually the gas that is extracted has to be cleaned up and everything else before it is usable.
In Alberta if they extract gas do they send it across to England to get it analysed before putting it out on the market.
I cannot respond to your question.
I haven’t talked to the people who extract gasoline in Alberta.
I think Mr. Wispinski would be better at responding to your question.
Again, we at the Alberta Research Council have only really found out about all these complaints at the beginning of
February. We’re looking very hard into the fuel beyond the normal tests that we do. So far there’s nothing that I can report that we’ve found.
I can assure you that we’re trying our best in working beyond what is normally done on the fuel.
That’s about all I can say now.
As the minister stated earlier, he sent out some samples to England.
Did he not know that they could conduct this analysis right here in Canada, in Alberta?
Did he not know that?
When we had our meeting in Rankin Inlet NTCL recommended sending some samples out to England and that’s how the whole thing got started.
I would like to take an opportunity to direct a question to the panel.
In regards to the samples and the analysis and being told by the government that the gasoline meets the standards, there has been more than one complaint about the quality of gasoline.
In Kugaaruk, we have been using this gasoline for well over a year.
There’s going to be another shipment coming in the spring.
Perhaps this bad gasoline will come to our community.
We are representing the people who elected us to this House, and they have made numerous complaints about the quality of gasoline.
If the results should come back and there are deficiencies in the quality of gasoline, what will happen then?
In regards to your last question, we haven’t determined what steps we’ll be taking from there about the quality of gasoline but my department will do everything they can do to help the communities.
We will have to wait for the results of the analysis and we have yet to talk to the snowmobile dealers about the repairs that they have had to do to the snowmobiles.
We’ll do everything we can do to study this problem to see what’s causing the breakdowns of snowmobiles and if the gasoline is the cause of the breakage.
The fuel that we have in Hall Beach will not be discharged into the community of Kugaaruk.
Mr. Alakannuark (interpretation): I thank you.
We had thought that we would be getting that gasoline from Hall Beach.
My next question is on behalf of the people who own snowmobiles and outboard motors. It seems like the majority of the Nunavut communities are experiencing this.
Are you going to be trying to resolve this on a top priority basis?
Regarding the tests that are being done, we’ll do it as fast as we can but it’s up to the people who are analysing the samples that are holding us back because of course they have to follow procedures and so on.
But we will work on it as fast as we can because of the number of complaints we have had about the quality of the gasoline.
I also thank the people who are responding to my questions.
From what I’ve heard, there’s an unusual coating in the engines.
Is it possible to find out what’s causing this coating of the machinery?
I will have Mr. Wispinski respond as to why there’s a difference in the colour and the coating in the machinery and what causes it because I’m not quite sure why it does that.
I will have Mr. Wispinski respond to your question.
The yardstick the Alberta Research Council uses to measure the quality is determined by the Canadian Standards Board and by what the Government of Nunavut asked us to perform.
The deposits that you are speaking of can be analysed.
They are not normally analysed but if you want to give me the direction to analyse deposits we can certainly do that.
Because of the large amount of machinery that is breaking down, have you considered the cost so far?
Is it possible that this was cheap fuel and thus of poor quality?
I have not thought about it.
But the previous minister has dealt with it.
At the Rankin Inlet meeting, the previous minister was asked about the high cost of gasoline.
That is the only thing I know about, I think the price was 7% lower.
Chairperson (interpretation): Just to remind the members, there was a motion on the floor in regards to the quality of gasoline.
That is the debate we are currently having.
We wanted to get your department to talk about the quality of gasoline.
We are not considering the issue of gasoline prices.
I would like to remind the members that the discussion in hand is about the quality of gasoline fuel.
That is the discussion at hand.
Mr. Alakannuark do you have another question.
Thank you for that reminder.
What plans do you have if something like this is ever to happen again, for correcting problems like this?
Hon. Peter Kattuk (interpretation): Thank you.
The problems that we have with the quality of gasoline, if we were to see something like this happen again we’d send samples out right away.
Samples would be sent out for testing as soon as possible.
Not too many questions.
First, I would like to thank Mr. Wispinski for being here.
As you know we live in a harsh climate.
During the winter, it’s very hard to start your snowmobile, especially when it’s very cold.
When this starts to happen, the carburetor starts to collect different substances.
Do you think this might be one of the problems?
Do you think this gasoline might cause this problem due to the temperature?
Because in the carburetor there’s a build-up, what do you think might be the cause of the build-up?
Being from Edmonton I do understand perhaps for one or two weeks out of the year the harsh climate.
That aside, the fuel, again, we are working hard and doing our best beyond what we’ve already done to see if we can determine a problem.
Mr. Irqittuq (interpretation): My question was, we were saying that the colour is different than the gasoline last year and during the coldest times of the year, the carburetors start to build up.
Could this be caused by the quality of the gasoline?
I’m not sure how to answer that question without seeing that unique situation.
Fuel can cause deposits and whether this fuel is so much different than other fuels, again, we’re looking into that and we need more time to find some answers and some direction into looking closer at the fuel.
As far as colour is concerned, again, it doesn’t take very much of a substance to change the colour of a fuel.
If it only happens in very small amounts they can be very hard to find.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Wispinski.
Perhaps I should ask, I think it was in the 1960s or the early 70s, I found out that diesel froze because of the cold temperatures.
It was so cold that we couldn’t start up the stove.
I think this might be the case now with the gasoline.
I think a part of it can freeze.
Perhaps this was brought up earlier when we talked about sulphur.
I am wondering if there might be part of the gasoline that could freeze up.
Hon. Peter Kattuk (interpretation): I'll get Mr. Wispinski to respond.
Mr. Wispinski: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The member is correct.
Diesel fuel does have to have cold temperature operability to make sure it doesn't freeze or gel.
Gasoline does not have that problem because of its higher volatility.
It doesn't freeze.
My question is if the gasoline has the same additive as the diesel fuel, if the diesel can freeze then would there be an additive in that gasoline that could perhaps freeze.
Mr. Wispinski: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our laboratory has not done any tests of that nature.
It is a bit unusual to look for anything that would freeze gasoline if you will.
So no we haven't looked at that in our laboratory.
Mr. Irqittuq (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not sure whether I'll get a response because there hasn't been a test of that sort yet.
We have noticed that when a machine breaks down there is a film that collects in the machinery or on parts of the machinery.
When there is a breakdown at other times there is no film in there.
With any other gas we have never had a film in there.
Although this has been a concern, the minister has stated that there is nothing wrong with the quality of the gasoline.
There is a lot of film in the motors of the machines.
It never used to be like that.
A lot of people have also said that there is a different colour to the gasoline.
Perhaps the same thing that is colouring the gasoline is making the film in the machinery.
We don't know what that dark substance is that we are finding in the engines.
Do you know what that film is that collects in the engines?
Again the colour is not controlled by any specification.
Can it do that?
Are we looking at trying to find out?
Mr. Wispinski is from the Alberta Research Council.
Is it a private firm or is it part of the government there?
I work in a business unit of the Alberta Research Council called the fuels and lubricants group.
We are owned at arms length by the Alberta Government through something called the Alberta Science and Research Authority.
We are a government organization defined as a not for profit corporation.
So I get my wage check from the Government of Alberta.
Mr. Chairman, the gasoline that we get, when the Nunavut government purchases it, do you get tests done before it gets to Nunavut.
The gasoline or the fuel oil that is coming to Nunavut, do you do some quality work on it before it comes here?
Or are you just here to tell us the findings that you have made thus far?
The quality work that we do occurs after Nunavut takes ownership of the fuel.
Before that it would be the responsibility of the fuel supplier and the refiner, the maker of the fuel.