EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’ll get Ms. Brown to answer the question.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister. Ms. Brown.
When the department put an FMB submission into the government to use the $1,003,000 that was scheduled for the Kitikmeot Boarding Home in 2007-08 to offset the deficits and the construction budgets for the Gjoa Haven and Igloolik continuing care centres, the government came back with the direction to put it in those years of the capital plan.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the minister and Ms. Brown for that clarification.
Could the minister just provide a bit more clarification on why the FMB just arbitrarily pushed it back four years? Why not just one year, or two years? How did they come up with a number like four years?
Did you not question them on that?
It is an important project for the Kitikmeot and to just arbitrarily push it back four years doesn’t really make much sense. We’ll probably be waiting three years for the project to go ahead.
Two things: the funding, what we’re trying to do with the completion of the boarding home proposals that we put forward to Health Canada is to have Health Canada cover off the costs of all the boarding homes in Nunavut.
We put forth a proposal in September on a Nunavut-wide boarding home study that we had done in terms of, for example, the Ottawa Boarding Home will be proceeding from a 55-bed to a 75-bed facility, and that will be covered off through rate negotiations we had gone forward to Health Canada with. At the same time we had to put forth our plan in terms of need.
So any new facility for boarding homes would be that process. Our hope is that for the boarding homes, now that the needs assessment process is done and put forth to Health Canada, that we will be able to recover the funding for those projects under the Health Canada program that covers all of the boarding homes in Nunavut.
I believe that covers that.
Can the minister explain to me just so I’m clear in my mind; there’s a three-pronged effort in Cambridge Bay. You have the health facility which you try and get 100 percent operational, then you have the boarding, and then you have a need for doctors and nurses.
Now, the lack of a Kitikmeot Boarding Home, is that going to affect the achievement of a 100 percent operational effectiveness at your regional hospital in Cambridge Bay?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Mr. Chairman, the delivery of health care services with boarding homes should not coincide with the delivery.
We have plan B for accommodations for our patients through the established hotel and at the same time through private billeting.
So in that process, depending on where we’re at, if it is constructed, or renovated, and/or not, we will continue to use hotels to accommodate patients that would require accommodations.
At the same time, we are putting forward implementation plans for the three facilities.
I hope to have that information finalized within the next few months to share with my colleagues in terms of the timelines of each of those three facilities and what will come into place in terms of service by a number of PYs to that timeline of when those will come into play.
So, hopefully, by that time, we will have a better idea in terms of timelines or dates on the overall picture of services, infrastructure, housing, and staff needs for each facility.
Can the minister tell me what the name of that federal program is where you are going to apply for funding for boarding homes?
Boarding homes are covered through the Non-Insured Health Benefits Program.
Can the minister explain to me how confident they are that they can obtain funds from that program for the Kitikmeot Medical Boarding Home?
Health Canada and the Department of Health and Social Services have been working over a year to put forth a comprehensive Nunavut-wide plan.
We had a meeting with them in September and we’re pretty confident that we will agree to the increased needs of boarding home services in Nunavut. For instance, the one in Ottawa, we’re looking at the construction of that shortly to expand from a 55-bed to I think it’s a 72-bed or a 75-bed facility.
Minister, in your substantiation sheet you said that the one bid came in at $1,750,000, approximately, and your budget was for $1.1 million. And, you’re proposing four years from now to build it for $2.1 million. You’re already $600,000 or $700,000 over the budget estimate.
How reasonable is the $2.1 million estimate four years from now, especially with the escalating construction costs in the Kitikmeot region?
Most likely, the costs will go up as we deal with increases in construction costs across the territory.
The deputy minister indicated that you will keep the money in the budget for that project already. This facility is right across the street from my constituency office in Cambridge Bay.
In the summer of 2006, after the annual sealift, I saw the forklifts quite busy over there.
They were bringing over the materials from the barge, and they’re stacked right behind me at the proposed boarding home. Maybe you can just clarify for me. Are you going to leave those materials there for four years?
Is there going to be a security area? I’m not sure how you’re planning to proceed from here.
Are you just going to leave everything on the books for four years and that’s it? You spent some money already, so how are you going to take that into account?
I’ll start off and pass that question to Ms. Brown.
I think the member is aware that we had to delay the project last year, I believe.
The elevator that was supposed to be installed for the facility missed the boat, like literally missed the boat, so we could not proceed with the renovation because that was the renovation’s major piece.
So we had some challenges like that. We had purchased the equipment material for the facility before we went out for the construction piece.
I’ll just have Ms. Brown finish off that question.
Ms. Brown: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’ve had discussions with the CGS project people in Cambridge Bay.
Some of the materials that were brought in for the boarding home will be used for the repairs of the Kitikmeot Health Centre with the fire.
That material will be replaced and as I understand, it’s secured in sea cans.
I thank the minister and Ms. Brown for that information.
I wanted to ask this question about the Yellowknife boarding home. I raised that during Question Period a couple of weeks ago.
I was wondering if the minister could give me an update on the process they’re going through to replace the Lena Pedersen Board Home in Yellowknife so that it’s a modern facility that will accommodate patients from the Kitikmeot in the City of Yellowknife.
The RFP for the Yellowknife boarding home is out, as well as for the facility itself and for the operations. There are two separate RFPs that are out.
In terms of the capacity for the Yellowknife Lena Pedersen Boarding Home, as part of the overall comprehensive needs based assessment, the change is to go from a 40-bed facility to a 52-bed facility based on trends, as well as needs of patients for that.
So the RFP is out. I don’t know when that process closes but that would be the first step in trying to deal with the situation in Yellowknife, as we are with Ottawa, and then we will be moving forward with the ones here for Iqaluit and the other facilities.
Could the minister clarify, did you say that you’re RFP is calling for a 52-bed facility?
Just so I can assure my constituents back in my Cambridge Bay riding, who come to me quite often about that facility, you’re not going to extend the lease on that facility, you’re going to go to an entirely new facility for patients from the Kitikmeot. Is that what I’m hearing you say?
The RFP process itself will determine that there will be no decision as to which way we will go, but we are hoping that there will be bidders for that that will be able to examine what’s before us in terms of trying to address the capacity issues for a boarding home in Yellowknife.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the minister tell me, the funding that you’re seeking for the medical boarding home in Cambridge Bay from Health Canada, is that the same source of funds that you’ll be seeking for a facility in Yellowknife? Is that correct?
All boarding homes are covered through Health Canada.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The boarding home in Cambridge Bay, you’ve got it on the capital plan for four years from now.
I know the lease on that facility in Yellowknife is expiring next year.
So assuming that the funding takes three to four years to obtain, how confident are you that you can get funding from Health Canada in time to have a facility in place in Yellowknife when the current lease expires on that facility that’s there now?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will have Mr. Campbell respond to that.
The RFP process calls for an interim arrangement, as well as up to 18 months short-term contract, as well as a 20-year lease arrangement. That’s the way we are proceeding with those RFPs right now.
Can the minister tell me where the RFPs were advertised?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe in our two northern papers.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the minister clarify when the closing dates are on those two RFPs?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don’t know that but I will pull the ad and provide that to the member. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
When the RFPs close, can the minister explain the process that the department will take to evaluate the two RFPs?
I’m going to have the deputy go through the internal process of reviewing RFPs.
Mr. Campbell (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) We have a Technical Working Committee comprised of CGS, our department, as well as somebody from the Department of Finance who will be asked to sit on a committee to review the proposals once the deadline has come and gone.
They’ll be assessing those proposals that are coming into government and they’ll be making recommendations to the successful contractor that would be considered.
Minister and your staff, welcome to the Committee of the Whole.
During the Arviat retreat, there was a commitment to build four new continuous care facilities over the term of this Assembly.
Currently, there are two such facilities in the Baffin region. One is here in Iqaluit, southern part of the Baffin, and one is being built in the north part of the Baffin region, which is Igloolik that’s been built recently. There are also two facilities in the Keewatin region.
One is south in the Kivalliq region, which is Arviat, and the other one is in the north of Kivalliq, which is Chesterfield Inlet. One facility is being built in the Kitikmeot region, also in Gjoa Haven, which is the east part of the Kitikmeot.
During the beginning of our term, I had brought up a resolution that was made by elders from my home community to this House stating that the elders from the Kitikmeot wanted one in their home community. That was the largest group of elders that were living in the community.
It would make good sense for the second Kitikmeot facility to be built in western Kitikmeot.
My question for the minister is: how will the location of the next continuous care facility be determined?
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Evyagotailak. Minister Aglukkaq.
Yes, the member is correct in that we had made commitments to plan to try and address four facilities. I think everyone the table here knows that it’s difficult to meet all of the capital project priority needs. We just dealt with Arctic Bay, Taloyoak, Repulse Bay, and Qikiqtarjuaq and so on.
So those projects have been deferred and most likely will not be constructed in this term of this government.
No decisions have been made in terms of future locations will be of any new continuing care facilities at this point in time.
If the next facility is to built in Nunavut; I’m not sure when it will be, like you mentioned it will probably not be during the time we’re here, but maybe next term, maybe the next government will be setting up the places where to build the continuous care facilities; what criteria will be used to decide which community will get this facility?
If there was to be a facility or not, the criteria that was used was based on a number of factors.
In deciding for the other ones was based on the number of people that were currently in residential care of some sort. Out-of-territory was one major factor in trying to build two facilities, and again, that was to try and address the issue around care closer to home.
We have over 200 residents of Nunavut in various facilities across southern Canada and in Nunavut, so I imagine that would be a criterion.
At the same time, if there were to be additional facilities, then that would be the government of the day’s decision to see if it’s a priority or not.
So it’s kind of hypothetical in responding to this question in that I don’t know what the new government will see as a priority in deciding whether there will be continuing care facilities, or what category they will focus in, whether it be adults, children, and so on. So
I can only assume what those may be.
So it’s kind of an inappropriate question to ask I think at this point. It’s difficult to answer.
H-6. Kitikmeot Region. Mr. Curley.
Mr. Curley: Mr. Chairman, I was curious when the minister was making some statements earlier today that Kivalliq has done a lot better now that they’re getting their share of the capital.
I have not seen any documents that truly reflect a 21 percent increase. I don’t know if she means overall, including other departments, or not.
But in terms of health for next year, I would like to be quite specific. What percentage of the capital estimates planned for 2008-09 are allocated for the Kivalliq region?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The capital estimates for 2008-09 are in front of him.
There’s a general capital category for minor renovations and so on that can be spent anywhere.
Right now, last year’s budget approval is being used to renovate the Rankin Inlet old health centre. That money is being used to renovate that facility as an example.
I was curious with respect to the Kitikmeot project. How did the two communities that are allocated significant amounts; for at least the next couple of years, from 2008 through to 2012, in excess of $12 million; how did the two communities eventually find their way to this five-year process?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Mr. Chairman, we just went through that whole process in the last two hours. I don’t know how much more I can explain the process followed.
In the last two hours we talked about the process.
The facilities for continuing care were decisions in 2004 by all the members around this House in Arviat. The Taloyoak project started in 1999.
We went through this already, Mr. Chairman.
I don’t know how much more I can explain that.
We had our votes already on these files.
It was made quite clear by other members from this side that the project, in terms of the replacement, initially it was renovation. Renovation right through up to $800,000 in prior years had been sent, and now, we see $12 million for future years and $200,000 this year.
My question really is: how did the two communities that are really quite close together be categorized? And, say these are real fair for all Nunavut communities, is what some of the Cabinet Ministers were saying to me.
I have always said my constituents can read. They’re not blind. They can read.
How did these two, I don’t want to use the word “riding,” but these two communities actually get to be the only two communities allocated with millions of dollars.
Will the other communities like Arctic Bay and Repulse Bay be allocated similar…
Repulse Bay is significantly larger than Taloyoak and yet, the allocation tells me there were future spending years for replacement of a health centre of $6.5 million.
Why such a big difference between the two projects?
Again, Mr. Chairman, we went through this already.
I already answered these questions over and over again.
We follow the process. We work with CGS. We go through the process.
I don’t know how many times I have to say the same thing over and over around how we got here for these projects. I don’t know how else I can rephrase how I’ve answered that question for the member.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. I’ll help the minister, Mr. Chairman.
Are these two projects mainly from one riding?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The two projects are from the Kitikmeot region.
One of them was in the books from 1999.
Don’t you imply that they’re in the books because they’re in my riding; don’t imply that.
Because in 1999 there were...
Chairman: A Point of Order has been called.
The Point of Order I would like to make is the minister is implying motive.
All the member did was ask the question if they’re in a riding, in a specific riding that is.
There was no implication or anything.
The minister is implying that there are ulterior motives for that question being asked.
All the member did was ask that question. All she had to do was answer yes or no and not start making allegations against any member.
So I would ask that that be ruled on, and if there is a Point of Order, that she retract her comments.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Tootoo. To the Point of Order. Minister Picco.
The Point of Order is open to debate. It’s not just the person who raised the Point of Order. Other people can speak to it.
That’s our Rules.
In this case, I believe that there is a point well taken by the minister in that when the member suggests what riding the projects are in.
Everyone in the House knows every other person’s riding and what communities are represented.
I believe the minister is correct when she suggests that there is a suggestion. Whether said, or spoken, or unspoken, then that’s the implication that there is a bias from the minister because it’s the riding that she represents. We all know which ridings people represent here.
The point by Mr. Tootoo is a bit facetious really, when you suggest that that wasn’t what was suggested. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
There is a Point of Order. The minister is required to withdraw her comments.
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: For the record, the two communities the members are saying are in my riding.
I’m not trying to hide that.
The question he raised to me was: are they in the same riding? Yes, they are in the same riding, in my riding.
I asked you to withdraw your comments.
That’s your right.
Withdraw your comments to Mr. Curley.
Thank you. Madam Minister.
I withdraw my comment.
Page H-6. Kitikmeot Region.
H-6.
My further question was: will this kind of health facility that is being worked on for Taloyoak be kind of a template now? Will it be similar to other communities eventually if they get some money from my very kind friends from the other side?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Mr. Chairman, all along for the last four days we have been saying that we were going to use the Repulse Bay and Taloyoak building designs possibly for Arctic Bay, modified by community.
We are trying to use the same model to cut costs, and depending on the community size, population, program needs and so on, the idea would be to try and use the same design to cut costs.
I think the original plans were quite credible.
I know they contained CGS assessments of an evaluation assessment through previous other ministers, otherwise they would not have been allocated $400,000 in 2002-03 unless some assessments were carried out.
And yet, the recommendations from, I’m not sure which department, recommended that the total expenditure would have a range of around $6 million, including the $400,000.
If you’re telling me that you’re now using a similar template for Repulse Bay and Taloyoak, it doesn’t appear to be because what’s being proposed for future spending for Taloyoak still hopes to receive $12.5 million.
So why is there a significant difference between the two?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: The big major difference would be the cost of shipping and the cost of construction in the two regions, two big differences.
We have the highest shipping rates in Nunavut in the Kitikmeot region. We have one shipping company in the Kitikmeot region, as opposed to other regions that have two or more.
That’s one of the major differences in costs and inflation; the cost of fuel or oil increases the cost of material. Every year we’re at over $100 a barrel now. What impacts will that have next year?
I can only guess.
Mr. Curley: Yes, I would appreciate it if the minister would table the cost estimates for shipping and so on because from my experience a few years ago, the ratio that we used for estimating was 30 percent of costs of construction was for transportation. They may have increased slightly five percent or 10 percent, but I’m not convinced that this is the main reason.
So if the minister would table some information as to why the original plans in the last five years have dramatically, more than 50 percent, increased for one community, as opposed to the one with a significantly larger population that was originally allocated, at least in the costs, for instance, of $6.5 million for Repulse Bay.
So it will be important that the minister backup that information because we must deal with the facts rather than just estimates.
The fact is we can’t predict next year’s costs based on oil prices. That’s a fact. So we can only make the best estimates on a number of things.
Just to clarify, the projects for Repulse Bay and Taloyoak, the current estimates that we put forward based on designs overall were forecasting the same amount of over $12 million for those two facilities.
As we go forward in our tender calls and so on, we’ll have a better idea on how much it will cost to construct those facilities. But based on the budgeting estimates process, we have the same amount, $12,760,000, for Repulse Bay and estimated $12,750,000 for Taloyoak as well.
Could the minister provide additional information on, if not now but at least forward that information to the committee, exactly what square footage is being planned for Taloyoak, Repulse Bay, and Arctic Bay? I think it would be important.
Then, we would be able to understand a bit how the costs ratio actually works because my information that I have from the technical people is that it costs about $350 per square foot for technical buildings, at least for construction projections from the government.
So it would be important if you would provide us with that information, give us some information, that would help us navigate through these future years.
Yes, I’ll commit to that.
I just want to follow-up a bit on questions my colleague from Cambridge Bay raised about boarding homes.
The minister indicated that they’re moving forward with a Request for Proposal for a new facility in Yellowknife.
We all know that the Larga Home in Ottawa is overflowing at the seams. It’s totally inadequate. It’s the same with the one here in Iqaluit, as the minister indicated, too.
I know when questions were asked about that earlier, it was my understanding that we were told that the department wasn’t going to move forward on boarding homes until they concluded their negotiations with Health Canada because they wanted to get Health Canada to pay for them.
So if that’s the case, why are they moving forward with asking for a new facility?
Last year or the year before that, I had also stated to the House that we were proceeding with a new facility in Ottawa from a 54-bed facility to a 80-bed facility, and that’s to address the overcrowding in Ottawa and we are moving forward on that.
Currently, these facilities are covered by Health Canada. The daily rates and the operations are covered, and we are going forward with a new facility concept through an RFP.
Once the RFPs are received for the one in Yellowknife, decisions will be made on the basis of what’s being submitted.
So until that process is done, we will be say new, or old, or expand, or whatever. We don’t have that data yet. What we’re trying to do is get that information to make an informed decision of what’s the best option we have to go with based on the daily rate that Health Canada currently provides us to operate those facilities.
Then will we be seeing an RFP come out for an adequate facility here in Iqaluit?