EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
If you look at the recent agreement on healthcare, they admitted that the fact the formula in the way that the funds are distributed is not adequate for Nunavut.
I am sure our housing agreement is pretty much the same as every other jurisdiction in the territory.
I think the same argument can be made for housing as well; we are funded in the same way that the other jurisdictions are funded.
We have been operating under that for years and we are way behind the eight ball on that and there is a lot of catch up to do and maybe that could be a way in which we can try and convince some of those people, I will use nice wording, people in Ottawa to realize the situation that a lot of Nunavummiut face.
If you look in the Business Plan, I think it was 3% of our homes are over eight people in them.
How many places in Canada is that allowed to happen?
I am sure more than one family may be living in that house as well, which is something else that is not too common in the rest of the country.
I really think that we need to do something to convince our Federal counterparts that, like the Minister of Finance indicated in his Budget Address, that we cannot continue like this unless we get more money from the Federal Government.
I think that is something that we really have to push in housing.
As well, one of the other things that I would like to mention over the last week or so, there has been comments made to the Minister and today here as well, in regards to the recommendations of the Task Force made and I know that the corporation has done their best to implement most of those recommendations and I can commend them for that.
However, one of the biggest ones that I am sure that the members of the Minister’s staff can recall that, when I was on that Task Force, one of the biggest things is housing, we can only afford to pay for housing now, maybe we need to get out of the hidden subsidies.
It is also mentioned in the Business Plan that housing subsidizes so many other areas as well and I think that is something that we cannot afford to sit and wait on.
If we can free up more dollars for housing other than hidden subsidies, then we can provide more houses on the ground for people out there that need them.
I think that one of the other things I have noticed in the Business Plan is that the LHOs have not received any increased funding since 1996, I believe, for other than forced growth, for money that they got for the new units that have come in line since then.
I think that is probably something that needs to be addressed in the budget to ensure that, you know, the LHOs we are giving them the resources that they need maintain and operate the stock that we have.
We all know that it is getting older and as these things older, they are not as cheap to operate and maintain.
Are we setting these organizations up to go into a deficit if we do not give them the adequate resources to operate?
I think that is something that should be looked at in here and I know once we get into that section in the budget, I will be asking questions on that.
Mr. Chairman, that is it for my General Comments and I will have more questions as we go through the rest of the budget.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): Just a short comment Mr. Chairman, about the problems, because we all have the same kinds of problems in regards to housing in Nunavut.
The problem that we have are mostly has to do with over crowding and the rents that we have to pay for public housing.
One of my colleagues said that HAP and access housing should be looked into a little more carefully.
I think Mr. Nutarak gave me part of his time so I’ll make my general comments again.
I think we have to find a way to improve the over crowding in the communities.
Housing Corporation builds houses that are very expensive to operate in the communities and they’re very expensive to build in the communities.
The contractors have to make money and Housing Corporation has to pay for the contractors and they’re bought by the Housing Corporation.
I just want to make sure that the private home owners become more in numbers, rather than building more public housing, people should be encouraged to own their own homes but make it easier for them to acquire their own homes at a cheaper rate.
I just want to say we had a meeting at one time with Inuit Tapirisat Kanatami about housing.
They had a lot of advertising for housing that they could provide to the communities at cheaper rate.
We also talked about brining in modular homes that could be stick built once they reached the communities after being shipped in by the barge.
You have to bring them in by barge from the south.
If they only cost about $40 thousand dollars, they’re sort of like modular homes and they can be built right away.
Perhaps you have to pay for the energy and the power at the same time but sometimes the houses that Housing Corporation builds becomes very expensive and it would be better if we’re able to get those modular homes brought up to the communities rather than just bringing in lumber to build houses.
This way, the Nunavut communities can have more housing at a cheaper rate because even if the modular homes are cheap, you can make them very efficient rather than hiring contractors, I think you could just ship some modular homes and have them built and it would be cheaper for the people of Nunavut.
If there are any questions before we go into the Main Estimates, I am waiting for questions.
We will then go on to the Nunavut Housing Corporation.
They are a stand alone corporation for the information of the Members.
I believe that Mr. Arvaluk would like to make a comment.
I would like to go into the Business Plan, first of all, if I could.
I touched a little bit on page 12-10, Homeownership.
Chairperson (interpretation): No cameras are allowed in the Chambers.
That is for the information of the individual who is carrying a camera.
In regards to the energy conservation in the home, I would like to know exactly what you mean.
When we mean energy conservation, are we talking about energy efficient architecture?
What do you exactly mean by energy conservation?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It would be in respect by either the capitals to make them more efficient so he uses less fuel, less power, or other conservation items such as light bulbs, etc., it has anything really with decreasing the cost of operating the home.
Does that include the design of the building?
The materials that are used?
My question in this regard is to do with at least looking at some other designs that are not traditional by nature in southern Canada.
Non-traditional that is new or more efficient.
For example, approximately, five, six, seven thousand years ago, Inuit architects developed a dome shaped house out of snow, not just snow, but it has to be the right kind of snow, otherwise other materials from other types of snow will not do.
Then this was found by the architects around the world that this is one of the most durable, heat efficient building designs.
What I am getting at here is there are some very good ideas still around Nunavut that can help you to determine, not from the traditional southern design, but something that can withstand or at least be heat efficient and more durable than the present system.
Right now because of the terrain that we have permafrost, although the Fire Marshall stated that you have to use jip rock, or drywall for the purpose of fire fighting, or fire retarding, etc.
I think with the fire marshal, the ordinary citizen, Housing Corporation, and traditional engineers and non-traditional engineers will have to come up with something that is more heat efficient.
Considering that because of the housing shortage that the doors are open almost every five minutes and that can’t be helped, especially after school, through most of the evening probably until 8:30 or 9:00.
You could have a brainstorming type of plan.
How do we make housing more cost efficient or energy efficient so that we will save some money in the long run, not just for Housing Corporation, but also for government as a whole; if that kind of discussion can develop from this way?
Yes, we’re open to any suggestions provided they’re cost efficient.
Obviously, we’re trying to maximize the dollars that we have available to us and we’re trying to maximize the efficiency for the home owners and the tenants that we’re trying to serve.
So, from that perspective, we are open to any suggestions and looking at working with developers, architects, and the industry in general.
I think a lot of the discussions around those areas have taken place.
We have, as members know, major initiative with the building connection symposium, where we’ve got a lot of players from different governments and organizations at the table to try and talk about options and solutions to make housing more affordable, more efficient and really just to try to deal with the issue of housing requirements in Nunavut.
I welcome that because a lot of northerners probably have an idea about slanted roofing that you could pile the snow on the outside for the winter.
On page 12-17 of the business plan, you talked about discussing and finding a solution to Nunavut housing needs or the housing crisis.
You recognised that, so can you tell me what really is meant by, in real terms, not just in the phrase, but in real terms using an example as to what multi-sectoral and diverse and proactive work is.
For your information, there is a difference in the Inuktitut numbers and the English.
If it’s 12-17 in English, it’s 12-18 in the Inuktitut.
Mr. Chairman, it’s really to take away any restrictions in trying to deal with the issue of providing housing for what the community wants throughout Nunavut.
For example, in Baker Lake, there was an issue about the community wanting to establish a seniors’ residence.
There, we worked the CMHC with the hamlet and the Housing Corporation itself to put together a plan that happened for that community to address their specific needs at that time.
It’s really, again, brining to the table as many partners as you can to try to maximize the involvement and maximize the opportunities for funding and work together really, to solve the housing issue for a particular community at any particular time.
Mr. Arvaluk: Mr. Chairman, on the second paragraph, encouraging the business sector as a means of developing cost effective and a viable solution for additional housing shortages.
I do not want to be leery about this much; it cannot be interpreted in a whole lot of ways.
It cannot be interpreted as cheap housing, but cheap housing sometimes if it is not properly designed; sometimes it is more costly in heating.
So, I am wondering cost-effective has to do with the cost of that building itself or does it cover more than just the building itself, like heating costs?
Mr. Chairman, it would be for both really.
We are trying to maximize how far in the top effective with our limited capital dollars goes and at the same time, we recognize the high operating costs for operating a house in Nunavut as Member have pointed out.
So, we are trying to make it as cost-effective as possible for the homeowner or the tenant.
Since the creation of Nunavut, there has been quite a bit of jobs distributed throughout Nunavut, especially in decentralized communities.
There are a whole lot of people working now that would love to own their own homes if it was affordable.
Would you consider, as part of this discussion, exploring the possibilities of potential homeowners pays half of the material cost and half by the Housing Corporation.
I am not asking, HAP house that was 100% by the Housing Corporation, but maybe half or whatever, so that the mortgage would be lower or at least affordable on a monthly basis and have the potential homeowner to contribute in the equity, like with the HAP housing that would address more than now to housing shortages.
In other words, more people who are working in moderate income will be able to get mortgage at half of what is being done now.
Secondly, they will be pride in ownership, again, so that the house is built by that owner, new owner because it will be his own home to be able to take every due care to build it properly and efficiently because if he did not build it properly, he would pay more for fuel in the long run.
So, the combination of these, not psychological, but the human behaviour into it because I know that I have seen HAP housing today after 25-30 years, I think it is about 25 years, the house is still in a very good condition, excellent condition.
Most of them are because they have been properly maintained, they have been taken care of, and they take the responsibility for it.
I am telling you that there is still a whole lot of potential homeowners, but they cannot afford very high costs of mortgaging right now from the private sector and also from the Governmental staff housing.
Would you consider exploring in order to attract new home owners on the affordable system?
Yes, I think that’s a valid point that the member brings up.
From the Housing Corporation’s perspective, it’s a matter of timing.
Right now we’re focussing as the member knows, and all members know a tenant to owner program which we think will be able to provide some pretty substantive additional private housing to our residents throughout Nunavut.
Of course, once we get that program under way, we have a chance to assess it and free up some additional capital whether it’s for replacing public housing or possibly shifting that into another type of home ownership program.
That is a little ways down the road yet but having said that Mr. Chairman, I recognize the value of the member’s comments and particularly about he possibility of having an expanded homeownership, expand it into that program really, or something along the lines of the former HAP program that the member refers to.
For my last 25 seconds, what you’re saying that, is that includes from the task force, building connections, affordable housing made by and for Nunavummiut.
Is that what he means?
Mr. Chairman, I think what we mean is that we’re flexible really in looking at any type of program that would expand the opportunities for individuals to get into private home ownership.
Recognizing it will alleviate it along with our shift certainly, if providing additional housing that is much needed in Nunavut.
I just want to go onto the business plan.
One of the priorities that you have on page 12-7, continue to raise awareness of the housing issues.
I talked earlier on my opening statement about the couple, or common law husband and wife; they have two units for example.
This issue was brought to my attention and people are saying look we have a long waiting list and here the couple has been together for at least six months or more or at least a year or more and they having two units.
Do we have some type of policy where if they’re common law that they stay together for six months or more, or one year, that they give up the other house.
I don’t know, we need to figure out how we can tackle this in the future because like I said, we have a lot of people on the waiting list.
Currently the Local Housing Authorities have that policy making authority and certainly if it’s an issue that the member thinks, the Housing Corporation would take a look at that and give some direction to the housing authorities on how to handle situations like that.
I don’t know if it’s prevalent throughout out Nunavut or if it’s specific to the member’s constituency but we’ll certainly take a look at that.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Ng. Do you have any further comments? Are you finished?
Mr. Havioyak: Thank you. Maybe I am going a little bit too fast. The Housing Association is aware of it.
Using some concerns that my constituents brought to my attention they do not have the policy in local housing.
I am just wondering of the Housing Corporation can do something.
I think that the local Housing Association are already aware of this situation, but they are not doing anything about it.
That is why I am bringing it up here today.
See if they can be of help to try and drop something that can be used in the future.
I can understand some situations where a couple have many children so they have two units.
They bring all the kids together and they keep the other one for their own usage.
That situation is happening.
When they bring it to my attention, my constituents saying to me, can the Housing Corporation do something on this?
Are they going to have a long term policy that can help the local Housing Associations?
Mr. Chairman, like I said it has not been brought to my knowledge, to our attention, by the local Housing Association in Kugluktuk.
If it is an issue, we will certainly have our district office follow up, or we will now that the Member has raised the issue to see what can be done.
One has to respect though, Mr. Chairman, the fact that there is a Residential Tenancy Act that protects tenants in all our Public Housing tenants.
We have to abide by that Act as well.
There are right there as far as giving proper notice, etc., in dealing with our obligations through our tenants, the Housing Association has to abide by that as well.
Having said that, we will see what can be done to try to rectify the problem.
Thank you as well Minister for your response.
(Interpretation ends) We will take a look at it to see what can be done.
I want to go onto another one, on the Staff Housing. Just for an information update on the staff housing for decentralized communities as to where they are today.
Again, using Kugluktuk, as an example, maybe not only Kugluktuk, maybe other decentralized communities, they were short of staff housing.
Due to staff housing they were not filling up some positions.
Just an update from you; how you are doing it.
What is the plan to make sure that we are at the level where we can set up positions in those decentralized communities?
At least work towards that to make sure that we have needs of staff housing to fill up positions in the decentralized communities?
Mr. Chairman, as the Members know last year, the Housing Corporation undertook a fairly aggressive campaign to establish a condominium program targeted towards the decentralized communities to address some of the immediate needs there.
It is a matter of assessing now the ongoing needs in trying to pay for some possible solutions to deal with that.
What we will do at the Corporation is obviously speak to the Human Resources in the district headquarters to try to coordinate what the needs and hopefully, try to meet some of those needs in the upcoming year.
Again, on your Business Plan, 10-12, we have some of the programs there.
If the emergency repair or home renovation programs, I might have missed it somewhere when I was going through it, does the applicant have to have some type of equity to qualify for under these programs?
No, I mean it is based on needs.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Ng. Joanasie Akumalik, I would like to welcome him to the Gallery.
He is the Mayor of Arctic Bay.
And I have no more names on my list.
We will move onto the Main Estimates.
Mr. Nutarak, I am sorry.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): The person beside me who raised her hand earlier on.
Before we move onto the Main Estimates, while the Minister has his Officials at the Witness Table, I would like to ask my question.
If there are any communities in Nunavut, if they wanted to get an Elders’ Facility, where would they have to go?
Well, Mr. Chairman, they would first have to identify what type of Elders’ Facility they are speaking of, whether it is an expanded or enhanced care facility, which falls more under the responsibility of the Department of Health or if it is an independent living units for seniors which would more directly responsible in regards to the Housing Corporation.
But then, certainly they could approach the Housing Corporation and we could work with them to try to meet those needs, for the need or the request of the community.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Ng. I have no more names on my list.
Page 12-5, 12-6, Main Estimates.
Are we talking about Corporate Summary, 12-6?
Let me get some clarification.
In the first few pages, I think we will move back to 12-4, Total Operations, $77 million, 516 thousand.
For Capital, $97 million, 801 thousand.
On page 12-6, Canada Mortgage Housing Corporation has provided $60 million, 465 thousand and also, Nunavut Government had provided $97 million, 810 thousand.
Total, $158 million, 266 thousand in total.
So, my question would be that the figures in 12-4, are we missing some figures?
Are we just using the Government of Nunavut figures into the Main Estimates?
But 12-6 is more reflective for 2003-2004 expenditures.
Mr. Chairman, the Member is correct, on 12-4, is the actual Government of Nunavut contributions to the Housing Corporation.
On 12-6, it includes the Canada Mortgage Housing Corporation funding is provided, to let the Members know, that at full extent of the funding of the Housing Corporation.
You will note that on 12-6, it is actually on the heading of the Information Item for Members.
Thank you, for the clarification.
Then, how long ago that Canada Mortgage Housing Corporation will be able to provide funding and their funding is reducing and when would the term end?
When would they stop giving us funding for Canada Mortgage Housing Corporation?
By the year 2037, is when the CMHC funding will be zero.
As I indicated in my opening comments, this year, there’s a reduction of $22 thousand dollars, which isn’t significant in the overall scheme of things, but like I said, it’s the start of the erosion of some of that CMHC funding.
So do you have a contingency plan up to 2037?
One can only imagine what kind of population growth we are going to have if our trend is the way it is.
The birth rate has dropped down a little bit but not significantly enough for it not too matter.
Will the erosion of the CMHC contribution, in your business plan, will that be included in your contingency plan, in terms of how to continue to build affordable housing and home ownership?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Yes, Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, I guess that’s the issue that we’re trying to deal with is how do we meet the needs and the ongoing future needs for Nunavummiut given our demographics and the future erosion or reductions of CMHC funding.
There is no contingency plan today.
Let’s face it; the reality is we have to continue to articulate what our needs are, hope that the Federal Government will recognise that and provide an injection at least to minimize the overall needs across Nunavut.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): Is the CMHC also responsible for other housing needs in other parts of Canada.
For example, Davis Inlet, the Dene people moving from Churchill, the Tulane, I think they’re called, complete relocation from Akulliq or Dene Village, or are these strictly under Indian affairs under the Indian Act.
Where do we fit in for those kinds of crisis?
I guess, Mr. Chairman, that’s another one of the issues that our government is trying to tackle in all aspects of federal programs, that are targeted for Aboriginals for on or off reserves and we don’t fit into either category with our predominantly Inuit population.
If there is going to be any interjection of funds, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada would have a significant role there given that they are the federal department that are directly responsible for Nunavut.
Also, from the perspective of the Davis Inlet situation, as members may recall a few years back and the problems they were having there and the special federal interjection of funding that came also through the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada to address those specific needs there.
That phrase, or on and off reserve policy, is it specifically to exclude Inuit contrary to the Indian Act that specifies that for the purposes of medical and other Inuit needs north of 60 shall be included.
Did they say that for the purposes of exclusion or did they tell you anything at all?
Mr. Chairman, I am not the Minister of Inter-Governmental and Aboriginal Affairs.