EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
We make every effort that we can to make sure that we get improvements to the formula as apposed to just renegotiating the existing arrangements.
Sometimes or often, we are limited in the fact that we don’t administer the program directly; it’s a federal program so sometimes even very strong arguments don’t convince them to transfer additional dollars.
Sometimes we do achieve success.
About a year ago, there was a change made that resulted in about 10 million dollars in extra transfers a year coming to the territory and a lump sum payment of about 46 million dollars.
Also, we are endeavouring with other government departments to tap into other pots of money that exist in Ottawa.
As recently as yesterday, we had meetings with the federal deputy of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs where we made our case.
Officials in our department and our minister on every occasion possible try to make the Nunavut case.
There’s a lot more money needed.
We agree with that fully.
Mr. Tootoo. 3-7, Finance, Branch Summary, Fiscal Management.
Total operations and maintenance, 21 million 119 thousand dollars.
Carried. Page 3-8. Finance.
Branch Summary. Informatics. Policy and Planning.
Total operations and maintenance 4 million 141 thousand dollars.
Under the item contract services, I believe it is some of the programs we use in our computers, things like the informatics, policy and planning, it seems to be towards new information technology.
Could he just clarify what his division does?
This is specific to the actually policies around Informatics, information technology within the government.
Public Works and Services, what the member is referring to, is more of the operational and maintenance side of the hardware.
This is just the developmental side of it.
Mr. Arvaluk: The policy and planning people, and compensation and benefits, 658, but you also have independent people working as technicians for 2 million 747.
Is that what the minister is saying?
As I indicated, this is more on the program development, policy development side versus the technical operational maintenance side, with IT and Public Works and Services.
Over the past three years, concern has been expressed about whether it’s spending on information technology is under control.
What are the department plans for the coming year in the area information technology?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the government has put in place an IT Management Committee that reviews all the proposals for systems development programs for that. I think there is some justification and some control in respect to the pace of the development of the system to ensure that they put in place something cost effective and manageable.
Then those recommendations go forward to approval through the Financial Management Board.
That’s where the controls are right now Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Arvaluk: Mr. Chairman, thank you.
Is there capital planning that is already in place or starting for this fall session or winter session because the concern, I’m not really trying to talk about you know capital but is this the same group that makes capital plan for it.
I’m not sure, IT informatics technology, is that the same group?
Maybe if I could ask the member to clarify what capital expenditures he’s referring to.
Is it in respect to the information technology capital or sorry, in respect to overall government-wide capital expenditures?
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Ng. Mr. Arvaluk, clarify.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): Yes, there was a concern in the last three years that the informatics technology or IT I think is out of control and I was asking would it be under control now.
My question is, is this the group that plans for capital, for IT, I guess.
If that’s the group then I would like to know; or are there other bodies that do that?
The IT policy and planning is in finance and the development of new IT systems is in finance.
Whether it’s a new payroll system or a new system for motor vehicles, it’s in our department.
The Department of Public Works and Services handles the operations and the hardware, like the computer networks.
The planning is done, I guess there is some planning in each department, but it comes together through the IT management committee that the Deputy Minister of Public Works and Services and me co-chair.
Through that committee we’re trying to bring IT costs down and in the Department of Finance for example this year, our IT budget is down 12.4% over last year and we share the concern of the members that IT can easily chew up a big portion of our expenditure budget and our attempt is to bring it down and to not develop IT systems that are too elaborate for the size of the territory.
You want to continue Mr. Arvaluk.
Mr. Chairman, if you could look at the informatics planning budget is 4.1 million in the Department of Finance and Department of Public Works and Services is around 12 million dollars.
This is another example of one basic function of a certain area in one department and delivery in another department.
Has the department thought of looking at putting all this area under one roof to eliminate the duplication, there must be some duplication of services?
Is that something that they may be looking at to try and cut down some of the costs on informatics?
The IT Management Committee is looking at that issue to see if we can come up with a more efficient structure to manage IT in government.
In most jurisdictions, you have an IT Policy Planning Group in Finance or Treasury Board Secretariat and you have IT groups in each department.
So what we have in Nunavut is a lot of the IT Operations side is concentrated together in the Department of Public Works and Services.
There’s probably more consolidation in this government than exists in any other government.
But we are looking at ways of streamlining the process where there are greater efficiencies, less costly ways of managing the system.
We haven’t come to any conclusions yet but we are pursuing that option.
Would you like to continue? Mr. Tootoo.
Mr. Chairman, I think the number over the last three years is probably close to 60 million dollars that’s been spent on IT throughout the government and in the area of developing new systems.
There’s one system in particular that has been asked about for at least three years now and that’s the HR System.
Maybe we need to look at ways and if it takes this long and we all know through the people, that there was a whole bunch of money that was wasted on that system and it’s taking, does it take this long.
The deputy indicated that we’re not a very large territory.
We don’t need a very elaborate system.
I would like to think that it would cost us a heck of a lot less than 60 million dollars and take a lot less time than three years to come up with an appropriate system for us.
Having said that, what kind of measures or steps, or checks and balances are being put in place to ensure that these things are being done in one, a timely manner and two, a cost effective manner for the government?
It’s true that a lot of money is spent on IT.
The percent of our budget that is spent on IT is less than the percent of budgets in most other jurisdictions.
This territory is geographically very dispersed and the IT system is one way that we’re trying to compensate for a lot of that isolation and a lot of those great distances.
We have a very decentralized form of government which puts additional strain on the IT system, especially if there’s not sufficient bandwidth going into a lot of those communities.
We are trying to develop systems, unfortunately we don’t have enough money to develop all the systems at one time and we had to put our HR payroll on the back burner in order to get other systems done.
We have a payroll system that works but on the HR side it doesn’t provide a lot of the information that people would like on compensation of our work force.
We’re trying to get that system developed this year and next year.
Each time we do our budget, we are limited on how much we can do in a given year because of the budget area constraints.
We also tried to improve our system for dealing with income support and other important systems.
The member asked about how we are managing the costs in this area.
We have monthly IT Management Committee meetings where the budget of each of our two departments are reviewed and ways are sought to minimize the costs associated with those activities and the review that goes on there is the same that goes on in any areas of our expenditure budget.
It’s scrutinized to see if things can be done in the most cost effective way and any changes required is brought to the attention of the Financial Management Board and I think we’re doing a decent job to control costs but we’ve acknowledged that the costs are high there because the demand and needs are high.
Do you want to continue? Mr. Tootoo.
Just one last little question; under this area here the travel and transportation costs have almost doubled.
I was wondering if I could get an estimate.
Are there more people hired there, are they doing more travelling or what is the result of that increase?
There are now eight people in that branch and up until this past year, most of the operations connected with the systems development were managed out of an office that we have in Ottawa.
With the closing of our project management office in Ottawa which was staffed by consultants and travel was built into their consulting charges.
By bringing people into Iqaluit, and performing the activities, there’s more travel required as part of our operations here. I would argue that it’s probably a lot less than was spent previously in the consulting contracts.
We’re on 3-8.
I don’t have anyone else on my list.
Turning the page, 3-9 and 3-10 are under the same branch.
Comptrollership and Regional Financial Services.
Total operations and maintenance 19 million 263 thousand dollars.
On this page, the compensation and benefits has been increased.
Is it because of the increase in salaries?
Mr. Chairman, 703 thousand dollars is the result of the collective agreement change and 828 thousand dollars is a result of new positions, the Financial Advisor position and Financial Support.
Is it for the employees, not for the training?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: These are for the new financial advisory positions and existing employees for that portion of the Collective Agreement change.
Mr. Chairman, here it says the comptrollership and regional financial services branch prepares the annual public accounts statements and as I mentioned in my opening comments, is this something that has not been done yet for 2000/2001. I was wondering when we can expect to see those public accounts tabled?
Chairperson (interpretation): Anything else? Mr. Tootoo.
I think I should have asked this question last week.
Also, Mr. Chairman, this area is responsible for the internal audit function and that’s something that the Auditor General has indicated, it’s something that needs to be done and kept on top of.
I’d like to ask the minister or the department, how many internal audits were conducted last year?
We got him specifically for this area.
His area of expertise is here so I’ll pass this over to him.
Excuse me for not pronouncing your name correctly.
Mr. Malcolm.
Mr. Malcolm: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
With respect to the member’s question on internal audits, in fact a number of audits have been begun and are at various stages of completion.
At this point I can’t provide a number with any of the details because they are still in preparation.
I’ll give you a couple examples of internal audits.
On the specific issue of overtime within the government we’re spending some time looking at audited leave and attendance.
Those are a couple of examples of things that the internal audit division is doing and there are several other things that they are presently working on.
So, although I don’t have any specific numbers in terms of number of audits, they are currently very active.
Mr. Chairman, I’m just wondering if the minister could provide us with a list of internal audits that it has done or is in the process of doing and also if he could provide the members with the copy of the results of the audits as well?
I’d be willing to provide as much information as legally allowed.
Like in the confidentiality issues and issues surrounding, you know if there are further things that are passed on to the proper authorities for further investigations. So we have to check what is allowable but certainly, what is allowable will be provided.
Mr. Chairman, this area of internal audits, and I know this I think this is the area where, I’m not sure if they were looking to hire additional people to take on and fulfill these responsibilities.
I should just ask, is this Internal Audit function; is it fully staffed right now and how many people are working in that area?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: I am told that three out of six positions are filled.
Chairperson (interpretation): Anymore?
Mr. Tootoo: Does the department anticipate or are they trying to fill those other three positions in the near future?
Yes, we have done competitions for that but haven’t found suitable candidates so it will be an ongoing recruitment process.
When these positions that they have been advertising for, do they come with housing or are they not eligible for housing?
Well obviously in ideal situations it would come with staff housing depending on the need.
As members know there is a demand for that right now from all government departments.
There is a process in respect to trying to deal with the priorities of available staff housing.
I guess at this time they are not eligible for staff housing as the minister was saying due to the lack of it.
Can the minister indicate whether or not the Crown Corporations of this Government will be audited through this function, through this division of Internal Audits?
Does the department have any plans on doing an Internal Audits on the Crown Corporations?
And if so, will they, again as the minister indicated earlier with the other stuff, provide a list of which ones and as much information as possible and the results to the members.
Again yes, given whatever is allowable.
Chairperson (interpretation): Anymore Mr. Tootoo?
My question I asked this before to different departments (interpretation ends) There are statutory requirements for tabling of reports and other documents in the Legislative Assembly of Nunavut.
There are a number of reports that need to be tabled here from the Government so that this government can be accountable to this House.
I would like to ask the minister and his department when he will be tabling the Financial Administration Act, the report on that, and the Financial Administration Act on the Public Accounts.
They had been tabled in 1999/2000 and 2000/2001 but nothing else after that.
As I indicated earlier on the public accounts, we will be tabling that tomorrow.
It was only recently received.
It’s signed off from the Auditor General’s office in respect to the translation.
It’s not just a matter of us not being able to do it; we had to wait for them to okay the translated copies before being able to publicly provide that.
There are a number of reports that are required; Worker’s Compensation Board, Housing Corporation, Nunavut Power Corporation, the Liquor Commission, Arctic College, Petroleum Products, Nunavut Development Corporation, and Nunavut Business Credit Corporation.
Is this department responsible to make sure these reports are being tabled?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Certainly for some of those Mr. Chairman.
But having said that, as one of the Cabinet Member’s certainly I’ll bring the issue to the appropriate minister and have that followed up on if it hasn’t been done already.
It’s more of an accountability issue.
We did a cabinet review last sitting so this is one way of making sure this government is accountable.
We will be periodically asking for these reports to be tabled in this House.
I think that was more of a statement from the member.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Ng. Are you finished?
All right, Mr. Iqaqrialu.
On page 3-10, Power Subsidy, for 2001/2002, and 2002/2003, the figures are the same and there has been no change on the figures since then.
What is this line item used for?
These are the subsidies that we’ve paid to consumers, most private homeowners and commercial operators.
Perhaps the consumers are not increasing in numbers.
Mr. Chairman, I don’t know the answer to that Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): Domestic and commercial, since they’re not increasing in numbers, is that’s why the figure has not changed at all?
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Iqaqrialu. Mr. Ng.
Mr. Chairman, there’s a budget item and any additional requirements would obviously would come back on that to dedicate the resources internally.
Is it because funding has been sufficient, is that’s why there has been no change since 2001/2002?
That appears to be the case Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, on that power subsidy, there’s been government wide I think, more than a million dollars in utility costs that have gone up in the last year.
That’s just the government. Even if the numbers haven’t increased in terms of domestic and commercial users, why hasn’t there been a change in the amount of subsidy to match the increase in rates over the last several years?
I guess this hasn’t been something that’s been considered.
Mr. Chairman, I think it was last year, as the result of the increase in the fuel costs and utility costs, this government gave extra funding to the municipalities to off-set those costs.
I’d like to ask how come they haven’t considered increasing the funding to the subsidies for the domestic and commercial users as well?
Well I think it was because the fuel costs, I just remembered it was pretty significant because of world oil prices whereas on the power side, any increases that the power corporation put in place has been more gradual.
It wasn’t such an immediate need for that because certainly there wasn’t such a demand or request for that increase in the subsidy.
How do they determine the amount that’s in here, 4.7 million, and how do they determine the level of subsidy that goes out to the consumer?
I’ll be more specific about which way my hand goes.
Mr. Chairman, I would expect that this is more or less historical spending that’s been carried forward.
This is historical spending and it only shows three years on here and I imagine it is the same, you know has this been the same amount since division and would the minister not concur the cost of these things has changed since April 1, 1999 and if he’d consider looking at indexing this subsidy to coincide with any of those increases since then.
Yes, Mr. Chairman, we could look at it but I would suggest to you that, you know, it’ll fall under all the other programs as well in this program review exercise that we’re undertaking in trying to identify what priorities the government should be focusing on or not focusing on.
Mr. Chairman, I think, not only in the program review process but there was also an indication by the minister in the past that they’re looking at the status and the review of all the utility prices and subsidies.
I don’t know but this is probably one of them.
So, maybe I would just ask the minister who’s usually on that review?
Can he give us a status as to where things are at?
As members know, there are a couple of major reports out there.
There is Ikuma and Ikuma-II for the fuel and utilities operations in Nunavut and these are linked into that.
So, I mean, I think overall as they move forward and they’re trying to implement some the recommendations there that would be probably more appropriate, because it is more global but the utilities subsidies and utility operations in Nunavut, collectively.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman earlier we talked about how the minister had decided to come up with some changes to the tax system to benefit the people in Nunavut for their tax credits.
I think if there was an increase in the subsidy it would have the same impact, probably more of an impact on Nunavummiut.
I just wondered if they would seriously take a look at the naphtha subsidy, the fuel subsidy, any utility subsidies and look at the impact it will have to the people all throughout Nunavut who are paying for these utilities and indexing them to the cost of living and not just going with the historical numbers that they have used in the past.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Tootoo. Minister Ng.
I think the member raises a good point.
But as he knows right now by and large government programs aren’t indexed in the funding that is provided to us, the contributions we provide, that’s not to say that ideally it shouldn’t be the situation but we have to consider our revenues versus our expenditures and our base.
I may have heard it incorrectly, on page 3 – 10.
Why does the government give subsidies to domestic and commercial establishments of 4.7 million dollars?
Why don’t you have a reduced rate for the power rather than having a power subsidy?
Perhaps give people a reduced rate.
Why do you use a power subsidy instead of a reduced rate?
It is because the government doesn’t set the rates for the power, Mr. Chairman.
We are on page 3 – 9.
Total operations and maintenance 19 million 263 thousand.
Chairperson (interpretation): The other page is part of 3 – 9.
Open the information item on 3 – 11.
Operating results.
I was wondering if you could elaborate on that to me on the 400 thousand import permits.
Those are the fees for the import permits for bringing in alcohol from outside of the Territory.
Would you like to continue Mr. Nutarak?
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): Just below that line item on income, 60 thousand. Why is that separate from the above line item?
That would be things that wouldn’t include import permits.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): My third question under operating results.
I had a question relating to the import permits and they are right underneath where we have the other income.
We have two line items.
One is for importing liquor, and then the sixty thousand, why do you have them separate?
Mr. Chairman, I am not exactly sure what that would be for.
Obviously it is not the ones that are specified as far as permits or for liquor sales go.
It could be interest income; it could be sales of items other than alcohol.
I don’t have that specific information here, but we will get that information.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): Again underneath we have the expenses, other expenses is 450 thousand.
Again Mr. Chairman, I would expect that it would be things like operations of offices and travel possibly in those items.
I don’t have the specifics here, but I can get that as well.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): There are only a few communities in Nunavut that can access alcohol, and then there are the prohibited communities.
Some of the communities can only have limited orders only with the authority and the approval of the local alcohol committees.
In some of the communities, are these other communities included whether they are prohibited or controlled?
Hon. Kelvin Ng: I don’t believe that they would be.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): In regards to my question about the alcohol committees in the communities, are they funded under the Liquor Commission Revolving Fund or how are they funded?
Thank you.  Chairperson (interpretation): Minister Ng.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: No, they are not funded through the Liquor Commission Revolving Fund, Mr. Chairman. I would expect that they are funded by local municipalities or by societies that might be structured to perform that function Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): This information item includes all liquor related issues.
Then your department deals with import permits and liquor related regulations and restrictions.
The committees, were they always funded by the Hamlets?
I believe they were because they are creatures of the local municipality or local authority.
It is outside of the jurisdiction of the Liquor Commission or the Liquor Licensing Board, which is more territorial.
On page 3-11. Operating Results Income and Expenses.