EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Mr. Chairman, on page L-21 of the business plan under Public Housing, there’s a reference to leased units and rent supplements.
It’s decreased by close to $300,000 from last year’s budget and it refers to 266 leased public housing units throughout the territory.
I wonder if the minister could tell me if he has a list by community and costs for those 266 leased public housing units.
Before I answer the last question, we’re all ... the Nunavut Housing Strategy that we’re working on, the draft one, we’re going to make sure that it has more information about Nunavut to make sure that we did recognize the shortages that we have in our territory. So the next Nunavut Housing Strategy will improve and have better information to the federal government to lobby for more units in the future.
On the other question, we don’t have that information offhand. We will be happy to give you some information on those units that you were asking about.
The numbers we’re seeing there is $7 million to lease 266 public housing units throughout the territory. So that works out a ballpark figure of over $20,000 per leased unit.
I know your figures given elsewhere; it costs $20,000 per year to support one public house through our local housing organizations.
I wonder Mr. Chairman, if the Housing Corporation is leasing 266 houses, do they also pay the operations and maintenance on those houses annually.
So then you expect to be paying $40,000 a year for lease costs and operations and maintenance costs, I’m just ball parking to you, is that correct?
Yes, it is in that instance.
Under Administration and Maintenance, there’s an increase of approximately $6.5 million this year. Could the minister clarify why there’s such a large increase in that item?
I just want to get clarification if he’s still on page L-21.
Mr. Peterson: That’s correct, that’s on L-21.
It’s for the local housing associations; that’s why the expense is larger.
Under Taxes and Land Leases, I’m curious.
How much per lease does the Housing Corporation pay for a typical house in a typical community in Nunavut?
Hon. Olayuk Akesuk: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) We don’t have anything written as to how much we pay for taxes and land leases but I could provide the member with the information. We don’t have that at the present time.
It’s something that’s always intrigued me. When I was on the hamlet council many years ago in Cambridge Bay I got a list of all the houses in Cambridge Bay; public, social, and private houses.
It was interesting that the houses that belonged to the Nunavut Housing Corporation were paying $250 a year for a land lease. A house such as mine for example, I would be paying $600 a year. I couldn’t quite understand why the Government of Nunavut Housing Corporation pays less for a land lease than a private citizen.
I have some residents in Cambridge Bay who are paying $800 or $900 annually for a land lease.
Why is there a disparity?
I will get Mr. Scott to answer this.
The main reason for that probably is because a lot of these public housing units are on old land leases, some of them are on commissioner’s land, some of them are on sketches as opposed to surveyed lots.
Some of the older leases, the annual rental rates are anywhere from $100 to $250. Some of the newer ones, the Hamlets set the rates for the annual lease rates so they could be anywhere from $500 to $800 a month. I think they also add a surcharge if you are the mayor of the municipality as well.
That would explain why one of my non-political neighbours was paying $800 per year. So it’s basically because they are one of my supporters?
I understand when we dug into it a little bit that the land leases come up for renewal every five years and the hamlet or land officers are supposed to send a registered letter to the leaseholder to inform them that the lease is coming up due for renewal.
If they miss that date then they keep paying the same rate for another five years.
So, to me it’s not right that some people in the community had to pay more than a large leaseholder like the Government of Nunavut.
Minister, in late fall of last year, I was in Cambridge Bay where the local housing association established a policy where they could; four strikes and you’re out if people complained in letters that you are a bootlegger or a drug dealer. That was kind of curious. It seemed like you didn’t have to be convicted, you just had to have people write a letter to tell the local housing organization that you were a bootlegger or a drug dealer and they could evict you.
Did your department review that case at all or get involved at all, or give advice?
The local housing organizations are responsible for that and they dealt with it. But we gave them some advice on this issue, to be very careful on this issue because this request was not coming from our department; it was coming from the local housing organization at the local level.
I am over on page L-23 of the business plan now, under staff housing.
I wonder if the minister could give me an update on how the implementation of the Government of Nunavut’s Staff Housing Policy is working.
At this time we are now reviewing the policy. Last year that was implemented, so we are now reviewing and we are now starting to complete the review process.
We have to work closely with the Department of Human Resources of the Government of Nunavut.
So once we get the results we will make a report on that.
Mr. Minister, I have constituents in Cambridge Bay who have approached me, and some of them have indicated that they are planning to leave the Government of Nunavut because they can’t afford the housing; it keeps going up and up.
I was wondering if you have officials collecting information, like exit interviews so that you can assess the impact at the community level that the increased rents are having on your employees of the Government of Nunavut.
Yes, the progress of the staff that our officials were asking questions to the Department of Human Resources, and we’re now working on that.
And we do exit interviews with employees and we are now working on those interviews.
I would like to ask the minister, have you considered putting a freeze on that policy until you analyze the results of your meetings with staff and other departments?
I think once the exit interviews are done by department, and we have information, I think that I can forward something to the Cabinet on how we could deal with this.
I think that is something that we can consider, but then again, myself as Minister for Nunavut Housing Corporation, I can’t answer whether we’re going to be freezing that or not.
Then again, we’ll work very closely with other departments on how the exit surveys are doing and what information they’re giving us.
I look forward to receiving information on your work in that area.
There is a paragraph describing staff housing that mentions that over 90 percent of staff housing stock is in the form of leased units.
I wonder, Mr. Chairman, the government is increasing the annual rents on those units and many of them are quite old.
I wonder if the minister could indicate whether the landlords, and/or Government of Nunavut will be making corresponding repairs and upgrades to the houses to. If you’re going to jack up the rent, give people good quality housing.
As a government, when we lease the units, we receive correspondence on which units require renovations and we need to follow the policy because we wouldn’t want to have our staff under safety and health issues.
Many years ago a Government of Nunavut employee told me that the government was only interested in the bottom line and that they don’t care whether the leased units are good quality or if they’re upgraded.
I wonder if the minister could refute that and tell me today that they’ll ensure that the landlords are upgrading their houses to make sure that they’re safe and clean. Replace carpets, linoleum, and replace the furnace as the case may need.
Yes, we do that.
Like I said, our priority is to make sure that our staff are in healthy apartments or houses that they’re renting.
We want to work very closely with the landlords to make sure that proper maintenance is done in each apartment or house that we’re leasing for them.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the minister for that commitment.
Leases for staff housing and renting is on the same page. It says that 85 percent of the line business portfolio provides about 1,100 rental units. I wonder if the minister could table a list, by community, of the 1,100 rental units in Nunavut.
Could I get that information tabled today?
I think all my staff is working today at the office. It’s Saturday. We’ll try our very best, but I don’t think we’ll do it today.
However, we’ll do our very best to table it as soon as possible; not today though.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I certainly hope that we can get that information today.
At the bottom of the page there is a priority for 2006-07 that referred to a Lease Hold Attrition Plan being prepared and is in the process of being implemented.
That’s for the communities of Iqaluit, Rankin Inlet, and Cambridge Bay.
Could the minister clarify what the Lease Hold Attrition Plan is and how they are implementing it?
The Lease Holding Implementation Attrition Plan is still in draft, but what it does is look at the rates of the renewing leases as they come up for renewal or dropping leases if it appears they are not needed within the portfolio.
Over the next five to ten years of the life of the Staff Housing Policy, in it they also look at the long-term leases, the ones that extend past 2010 and how we will deal with those leases since we will have to continue to provide some staff housing after 2010, particularly in Iqaluit and the emerging market communities.
The overall plan is not complete at this point. It’s more of a work in progress.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the minister and Mr. Scott for that information.
I look forward to an update on that Lease Hold Attrition Plan. In the same bullet there, it says there are RFPs issued for additional supply and results are being incorporated into the plan.
Mr. Scott and the minister will recall last summer they issued a RFP for additional housing in Cambridge Bay.
I think they had one proponent, there was some concern in Cambridge Bay that the RFP came out in summer, with people out camping, fishing, and other things, and it’s quite busy during the summer.
If the minister is aware, in Cambridge Bay we have a dire need for housing for doctors and nurses; it has come up in the House a few times in this sitting. I wonder if the minister or Mr. Scott can update me on whether they plan to put out another RFP and what their plans are to provide staff housing to the Department of Health to accommodate their need to hire doctors and nurses for the new health facility in Cambridge Bay.
We are still negotiating with KC just for the three units that we were talking about.
We are open for anybody who wishes to come up with an RFP to our department from that area as we’ll need staff housing units in the future.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): Mr. Chairman, I think I still have ten minutes, although I don’t want to use my ten minutes. I had asked the questions quite a few times yesterday and I’m sure they can respond to that question now, although I asked the question to the same minister.
Human Resources, the House Leader, and the Premier couldn’t respond to my questions.
Perhaps we can discuss that, although I don’t want to start using my ten minutes.
I’ll add 20 seconds.
Hon. Olayuk Akesuk (interpretation): If I remember the questions correctly, I’ll try and respond to his questions.
In regard to the units, which employees are eligible for staff housing; I think that was the question.
The department that provides the employment opportunity they ask whether their position requires a staff housing unit or not.
So if I understood your question correctly, that’s how it is.
The successful applicants who are hired with the position that don’t require staff housing, they make the staff housing available if the employee is eligible. We provide staff housing if there was one available to the employees.
So if I understood your question correctly, and if my response does not respond to your question, you can rephrase it.
Mr. Curley, before he starts using his ten minutes, we’ll take a 20-minute break.
>>Committee recessed at 15:03 and resumed at 15:28
Chairman (interpretation): We will now start. We’re on (interpretation ends) Nunavut Housing Corporation.
Department Summary. L-4. 2007-08 Main Estimates.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): We were trying to get information as to which positions are supplied with staff housing, how they determine which positions, and I’m sure I’ll be able to get that response later.
My question is; it was in my opening comments in regard to the Nunavut Housing Needs Strategy. They’re working on it and when can we expect to see that once it’s completed?
There is a working group on the Housing Strategy representing from the government, which positions are supplied with housing and in the following session, I will be able to table the Housing Needs Strategy.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. I believe we did reference it in our opening statement about the strategy.
My additional question to that is: does that include that strategy or housing needs, do they include also government housing needs as well? Or is it just public housing needs?
Hon. Olayuk Akesuk: Thank you. I’ll get Mr. Scott to respond to that question.
We’re talking about two strategies here, two studies.
One is the Housing Needs Study. The focus of that study would be on the need for public housing units in the territory.
The Nunavut Housing Strategy looks at the total housing situation in Nunavut, and will look at long-term strategies to address those. We will certainly be working on that this year. We expect that we will be able to at least have the Nunavut Housing Strategy for the fall session in November.
A full blown housing needs study survey could take quite a bit longer than that to do, to compile, and to report on. These things sometimes takes up to a year to do so it may be a little longer on the needs study.
Mr. Curley: Yes, I appreciate that. I think that’ll be quite an important document to see in the fall.
I have a further question with respect to the operation and maintenance of public housing. Throughout a number of many years you probably have a pretty good record of exactly the total operation and maintenance requirements of public housing.
During the last two years you have now been given additional, total responsibility, I think, for the maintenance of government staff housing. Do you have an idea in terms of percentage of decimal, 98,754, are used towards the two; public housing and staff housing.
Hon. Olayuk Akesuk: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) We are currently working on this and once those houses are completed and the construction of staff housing as to how much more funding we will need. We have an idea but because the operations and maintenance fluctuates.
Maybe in the coming years we’ll have a better idea of how that funding will be spent so that we can operate and maintain the units in Nunavut.
Mr. Curley: Obviously you acquired quite a lot of units. You probably have an idea now how many government staff units are you currently maintaining right now, totally in Nunavut?
Hon. Olayuk Akesuk (interpretation): Thank you. The government staff housing we have 1,150 units that we are maintaining at this time.
When the government decided the Housing Corporation will now be responsible for the maintenance of these units, how was that actually transmitted to you?
Did it contain some operation and maintenance money, or did they just say maintain them from your current allocation that was originally allocated for public housing?
I’ll get Peter to respond to that question.
When the Staff Housing Program was transferred back to the Housing Corporation, I think it was about four years ago, there was a budget transfer done at the time.
The Staff Housing Program is roughly a $34 million expenditure included in with our grants and contributions of $98,000.
That compares with approximately $86 million for the Public Housing Program, keeping in mind that we also do receive additional funding from Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation for public housing operations and maintenance.
Mr. Curley: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So when it was transferred it did contain initially all the maintenance funding. Is that the ongoing contribution towards these, or is it a one time grant, or a one time transfer from overall government expenditures?
Yes, we will receive that funding in order to maintain the units.
Is there any new money that is needed for government staff housing … would that be competing from the public housing allocation currently?
For instance, out of $98 million of Government of Nunavut contribution? Because I am not sure that government staff housing would be built with the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporations contributions which you have in your information item, I think out of $63 million.
So would that be extra money allocated specifically to build staff housing from the government?
I will get Mr. Scott to respond to that question.
As we build and add new staff housing into our portfolio, obviously we get the capital dollars through the capital planning process and as part of that process, over and above that process is the operations and maintenance requirements which becomes a forced growth item that we would have put in for through the main estimate exercise here.
It’s the same with new leasehold leases for staff housing that is put forward. If it’s before the main estimates approval, we put it through to get approval on it and a supplemental appropriation to pay for the leases and our costs, our operating costs as well and then that is built into our base on the next main estimates.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Scott. Mr. Curley.
Mr. Curley: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The minister in his opening remarks quoted a figure of $1,425,000 and I believe in increased power costs and as well as the $1,260,000 for fuel.
That’s just a reflection of this one-time; I suppose increases, fuel and electricity.
Is that for one fiscal year increases in excess of I believe close to $3 million already.
These two amounts were the amount of $2.6 million goes to our base amount. Unless there is a new increase again in the future, or even a decrease. Hopefully we’ll see a decrease for a change in the future.
Mr. Curley: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess there are real serious costs that we see annually. But can we get some indication from the minister or the president exactly how much of these figures, both the power bill and fuel costs that would be recovered from the tenants?
Is there a ratio that you apply towards the rent or what not?
Hon. Olayuk Akesuk: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) The money that we receive from the rent, we don’t put it against those. So there’s no increase from that.
I believe that all the tenants, with the exception of the elders, pay a portion of the electricity cost. So my question was, really: is any part of that at all of that extra energy cost allocated by way of any rental increase, or anything, or it’s paid for 100 percent by the Housing Corporation?
Yes, we pay for the increase of the electricity bill.
That’s good for now.
The other question is; the tenants do pay for some energy costs; I believe the fuel is probably covered 100 percent by the Housing Association. But what about electricity; what percentage of the electrical bill is passed on to the tenant?
It is six cents per kilowatt hour that is charged to the tenant.
Mr. Curley: That’s probably a small percentage of the total bill, and is that right across Nunavut, or does it differ from region to region or community?
That’s right across Nunavut.
Mr. Curley: That’s good information to have, thank you, because we thought the homeowners were paying a lot. Now we know a bit about what amount is passed on to the tenant.
I want to ask the minister about the elders’ program, housing program, benefit program for maintenance or what not, as well as the opting out of the homeownership for elders.
Could the minister explain exactly how the process works because an elder is not able to afford to live in a house?
How does that actually work; what must be done for the house to be turned over legally and just to turn the title over to the Housing Corporation, and as well as what condition should the elder be in, in order to qualify for Housing Corporation to take over the unit?
I’ll get Mr. Scott to respond to that question.
What we’re calling the seniors and disabled options program is a series of steps of counselling the elder or the disabled homeowner and to assist them in transitioning from homeownership, having their own home, back into public housing.
First of all, through discussions with the elder, the disabled individual, the elder must be able to demonstrate that they are in either financial or physical distress that they cannot possibly afford to be a homeowner, or they physically cannot possibly look after the home.
And then we will counsel them and walk them through a series of steps where they have different options and must make certain decisions as they go along.
The first option that they can entertain is signing the house over to a relative; son or daughter, somebody in the family that’s capable of looking after the unit. The elder then has the choice of either remaining with that family living in the house, or they can be put on top of the waiting list for public housing.
If there is nobody that is in the immediate family or that the elder or disabled homeowner feels comfortable with turning the house over, he has the option of selling the unit if there is a private market in the community, by selling it. Then he can then be placed on the top of the waiting list if he sells the home.
The other option is that the corporation can look at buying the house from the elder if we need the unit, say for staff housing, in that community.
The third option available if the first two do not work, or the elder decides that he doesn’t want to turn it over, or he doesn’t want to sell the house, or can’t sell the house, then he can turn it over to the corporation and then we will turn it into a public housing unit and look after the repairs and maintenance.
The elder can then decide if he wants to stay in that house, while we look after it, or he can be put on the top of the waiting list for a more appropriate house for him.
So, it’s a series and progression of counselling that is done with the homeowner, so that they can decide the option for their future.
So, the first two that I see; to try and transfer the title over to relatives and so on, the family that the elder is comfortable with, and that would mean transferring the legal title as well.
The liabilities and any obligations that the homeowner still has would be honoured by the new owner.
Is that the way it would work?
That would be the case.
Mr. Curley: If the relatives are not all that keen on taking over the liabilities or obligations that are still within that mortgage, if any, or with the Housing Corporation, then the second option would be to look for a market as you indicated, providing, I suppose that they have established a market value for that unit, and still the owner would still have that option, if so, then that would be publicized.
Is that sort of what I... try and sell to the local market through means of advertising through the local market? Is that how it works?
Yes, that would happen.
So, assuming then that there would be an agreed upon price of that unit to try and see if there is a market, or a buyer within that community.
So having failed to find a buyer in that community, considering with the amount of properties and the amount of value of the house, would then the last option be that the housing corporation would buy that unit from that individual. Is that the way I understand it?
What we would do is they would return it to us, if we needed it for staff housing, or if a person, an elder, or disabled person wants to live in it, we would be the ones maintaining the unit.