EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
I would like to move forward on the facility here in Iqaluit. The information that also went to Health Canada, just for the record, and for the clarification of the members, is we had to put a comprehensive plan on our needs in terms of future needs as well.
For example, the current capacity of the Iqaluit facility is 38. For the expansion, we will be looking at approximately a 90-bed facility now that we have that expanded service at the hospital, it will have more of an impact on that.
So we want to move forward on that in the next year or so.
I look forward to that happening. I’m sure the Minister of Education does, too, because I think he always has lots of people boarding at his place because there’s no room at the facilities and he says it takes him a long time to get paid.
Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask and not to dwell on something, but I just want to get some clarification on the Taloyoak Health Centre.
Part of why I had my concerns with the project is if we go back, as I think the minister indicated, I think the 2001-02 substantiation sheet shows that there are, in prior year’s, $50,000 spent, and in that year, there was $350,000, for a total of $400,000 in the substantiation sheet for that project.
The next year, it wasn’t even on there in the 2002-03 year.
In 2003-04 year, it showed prior year’s, $350,000, where it should have been $400,000, then $670,000 for 2003-04, when you go to the 2004-05 year, as prior year’s, $1,020,000, and then $73,000 for 2004-05. In 2005-06 year, it goes back to down to prior year’s, only $968,000 with $287,000 in the 2005-06 year, then in 2006-07, it says $1,255,000 in prior year’s, $352,000 for the 2006-07 year.
In the 2007-08, as prior year’s, it is only $952,000, but nothing else in 2007-08, and then this year’s, as it is, $835,000 in prior year’s.
That’s part of my concern with this whole thing throughout is the numbers just don’t add up.
That’s part of my concern and to me, it doesn’t matter where it is but the numbers don’t add up.
That’s a part of my concern with this project.
So maybe if I can get an explanation from the minister because when I look this year’s substantiation sheet of prior year’s $835,000, and I know you’ve got $820,000 in approved capital carryovers for that project, there’s a whole bunch of money missing.
It’s not accurate because according to all of the other substantiation sheets, there was more money than that in prior years spent on that project.
I’m just wondering if I can get a clarification on that.
Again, I will ask Ms. Brown to walk through from 1999, when it entered the books, to today.
This project, like the one on Repulse Bay, has been on the books for a long time.
An Hon. Member: Too long.
Ms. Brown: Too long, yes, I agree.
Ms. Brown: Parts of the funds were borrowed to offset emergencies or things in other communities.
For instance now, last year the department sought FMB approval and we transferred $266,000 from the Taloyoak project to Sanikiluaq for the repairs.
In the past, from the Repulse Bay project, we were short $90,000 to fix Kugluktuk’s Health Centre’s boilers.
One year, in the Kivalliq region, Social Services in Rankin Inlet, the department was given a three-month notice by the co-op that they had to move because the co-op was being torn down and renovated. CGS was able to find some space but the government, again, had to come up with $95,000, I think it was actually a little higher than that, $95,000 to do tenant improvements so that the social workers in Rankin Inlet had a home.
This is a problem in a way with the substantiation sheets because, yes, we want to be transparent in showing what the government approved for a project but sometimes that money was used to offset emergencies in other projects. So do you show it, or do you not show it?
Any funds that remained in that project, we’re speaking in particular Taloyoak, was carried forward for that project.
So there have been no renovations at the Taloyoak Health Centre, there’s been, at the Functional Program, some planning done and some work by the architect.
When it goes into prior year’s, it looks like it’s already spent but the majority of that $835,000 that you see there was actually in the 2007-08 capital budget.
I know that out of the $835,000 that they have in there for prior years, I believe there’s $820,000 that’s been approved in capital carryovers.
Like I said if you go back to the other years, like even the 2006-07, in prior year’s, there’s $1,255,000 in prior year funding approved for that project.
As Ms. Brown indicated, there was one case of $266,000 that was transferred somewhere else.
I hope you understand my confusion there because it looks like there have been a lot more money approved for that, actually, overall for this project that’s been approved since 1999 has been $1,772,000 that’s been approved for that and $820,000 of that has been carried over.
So that leaves $952,000, I think, yes, $952,000, if I’m doing my math right, that looks like it’s spent already on this project.
So I’m just wondering if I could get… I hope that helps you appreciate the confusion and the frustration we’re having saying, this is what we’ve approved over the years, $1.7 million, there’s $820,000 in carryovers, so that leaves $952,000 that’s been spent on what?
The numbers just don’t add up and that’s part of my concern with this project.
I can understand the member’s concern, it is confusing.
We’re going back to seven years of history here, so it’s difficult to go back and chronologically go through each and every time an incident or whatever happens, and what amount was moved for a project.
So what I can do for the member and the House is go through both Repulse Bay and Taloyoak, and from 1998 to 1999’s planning process, walk through that whole process and in writing for the members because I’m confused.
I’m being asked to explain stuff from the first government as well and that’s difficult to do.
So if the member wishes, I can provide that information for both Repulse Bay and Taloyoak to address some of the details of his question.
I thank the minister for that, and I’m sorry, Ms. Brown, because I know you’re the one who is going to have to probably be doing it.
That would be, because like I said it looks like, if you go by this what’s been approved and what’s been carried over, it looks like there’s close a million dollars that’s been spent already.
That’s how it looks by the numbers.
So I really look forward to seeing an explanation if money was transferred out, when and where, or how much just so that at the end of the day, with all of the numbers, everything should balance out, if it doesn’t, there are concerns.
I guess that’s part of my concern with this project now, because the way the numbers flow through the whole thing, it just doesn’t balance out.
So I appreciate getting that from the minister.
The other concern I have and I raised it earlier, too, is the fact that substantiation sheets indicate, when they’re talking about the numbers in there, that they’re estimating for the overall cost of the project indicated the Class C estimate and the reliability is questionable.
What happens if it comes in over double?
So we don’t run into the same kind of situation in a year or two that we ran into here over the last few days, how can there be a way where, if this seems to be the case, we’re not making informed decisions; we’re making a guess on this. Like I said the other day, it’s almost like we’re approving a blank cheque and being told that right there that these numbers aren’t reliable, or the reliability is questionable; the numbers.
So what happens if it comes in more than that and how is that going to be dealt with?
In terms of the steps that are involved in projects, Phase I, Project initiation; Phase II, Project planning; under Phase III is for project design; through the steps that CGS follows. This just highlights the steps under that category.
Once the detailed planning is complete, a project brief is approved by the client, then the next step is to do an architect/engineer firm to start design and that’s done through an RFP. CGS goes through the process of evaluating that. The design stage is broken down to various stages: preliminary design, conceptual design, contract documents and so on.
In there it states, “Class C to Class A costs are obtained as the design progresses and is complete and ready for tender.”
So that’s part of the steps that are involved.
I don’t know what Class C means. I don’t know from the technical perspective, but based on these processes, before the tender is initiated, the Class C to Class A costs are obtained for designs. I believe those are estimates if I’m correct.
Ms. Brown can correct me on that.
That is, I believe, to go for approval for tender and so on.
Perhaps, Ms. Brown can explain a bit more to that detail.
I believe Mr. Tootoo had one more question. Mr. Tootoo.
My last question and again, it’s part of my concern with this.
I understand that we’re looking at right now $200,000 for design and you already have $815,000 carried over in design.
So it’s saying that the design is going to cost us over a million dollars, especially as the minister indicated earlier, there was a design that was being done for Repulse Bay, and they took it from there and they were going to use it in Taloyoak.
I believe there’s a whole bunch of money in there for the Repulse Bay design, too.
All together there’s about $847,000 if you count what they have in for 2009-10.
So I’m just wondering if I can get an explanation of how much it’s going to cost us, you know it’s about $2 million to get these designs done.
Why do they need another $200,000 when they have $820,000 in there for design already?
Again, I’ll have Ms. Brown go through that process.
During 2007-08, we had hoped to have the final design done of the Taloyoak Health Centre. That’s not the case because we want to not go the addition/renovation route and go with an upgraded design that’s fundamentally from Repulse Bay.
At the time when we put this $200,000 in a couple of years ago, we thought the design would be finished earlier and what we wanted to make sure is we did not want to proceed with the tendered specification documents in terms of finalizing them with the architect until there had been a code review of the year 2008-09 in case any building codes had changed that would effect the designs.
Building codes generally change every five years and they’re on their own schedule.
I just know that as I have been informed by CGS. So we were hedging our best bets. We were making sure that we were going out in terms of what we’re requiring with construction based on the current building codes.
As well, initially, the architect would have been selecting flooring material, paint, other products or whatever.
These types of products, as we ran into with the Qikiqtani General Hospital, where the flooring, all of a sudden, by the time it was picked, was not available, then we had to spend quite a bit of time finding something that matched the rest of the building.
Then it was a matter of printing the tender specification documents and advertising those associated costs.
Kitikmeot Region. Total Kitikmeot Region. I gave you, Mr. Tootoo, the privilege of going over.
One final question, Mr. Tootoo.
Mr. Tootoo: Is it going to cost us over $1 million for the design for that facility?
I just want to know that.
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: I’ll get Ms. Brown to answer that question.
Depending on what size the Taloyoak Health Centre comes to be, there’s a certain amount that usually goes with design fees.
Because we are going to go with a repeat design for modification for Repulse Bay and Taloyoak, I can’t put a dollar value on that.
That will be with CGS in terms of being able to negotiate those fees and what the architect’s fees are that are charged for certain sized buildings.
Our best estimate, we should be able to get them done within that, hopefully, very much less, the leftover money then would go towards construction. It’s not going to be wasted money.
It will go towards whether it’s the Repulse Bay or Taloyoak project.
Kitikmeot Region. Total Kitikmeot Region. $4,727,000. (interpretation) Do you agree?
Total Tangible Assets. $14,373,000. (interpretation) Do you agree?
I remain unhappy. I have lost confidence in the minister.
I will express my unhappiness by way of a motion when we return on February 19, 2008.
We will wait for that day.
Health and Social Services. Department Summary. Detail of Expenditures.
Total Capital Expenditures. $14,373,000. (interpretation) Do you agree?
That’s not too bad, it only took five days. Minister you have last words. Minister.
I want to thank my staff for being here as well as Nick in the audience and Rosemary for re-scheduling her travel three times to sit through the committee.
So I want to thank her for her time here.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Ms. Brown. Thank you, Mr. Campbell.
Page VIII the 2008-09 Capital Estimates, please.
Page VIII. Turn to page VIII in your Capital Estimates.
Summary of Capital Expenditures.
Total Capital. $98,330,000. (interpretation) Do you agree?
Chairman: Go to Bill 16 in your white legislation binders.
Bill 16, Appropriation (Capital) Act, 2008-2009.
Go to Schedule on page 2.
Clause 3, please note that appropriation may be made in accordance with the Financial Administration Act for the purpose and in the amounts set out in the Schedule, that’s the one that we are trying to pass.
Let’s keep that and let’s use that clause for the next budget.
Scheduled on page 2.
Amounts Appropriated for the Fiscal Year Ending March 31, 2009. Vote 2.
Capital Appropriation. $98,330,000. (interpretation) Do you agree?
Chairman: Total Appropriation. $98,330,000 (interpretation) Do you agree?
Chairman: Go to Clause 4 on page 1.
Chairman: Bill as a whole. Do you agree?
Do members agree pursuant to Rule 62(2) that Bill 16 can immediately be placed on the order paper of the day for third reading?
So Bill 16 is done.
On your Bill 14, Supplementary Appropriation (Capital) Act, No. 2, 2007-2008.
I would like to ask Minister Simailak, for the Department of Finance, to make his opening remarks. Minister Simailak.
Bill 14 – Supplementary Appropriation (Capital) Act, No. 2, 2007-2008 – Consideration in Committee
With your permission, I would like to speak to all three supplementary bills at the same time, 14, 15, and 17.
Chairman: Yes, proceed, Mr. Minister.
Bill 15 – Supplementary Appropriation (Operations & Maintenance) Act, No. 2, 2007-2008 – Consideration in Committee
Bill 17 – Supplementary Appropriation (Operations & Maintenance) Act, No. 4, 2006-2007 – Consideration in Committee
Hon. David Simailak: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members.
It is a pleasure to be here to speak to Supplementary Appropriation Bills 14, 15 and 17.
Bill 14, Mr. Chairman, appropriates supplementary capital monies in 2007-08 in the amount of $1,198,000 for the following:
Internal reallocation of Grants and Contributions for Vote 2 (Capital) to Vote 1 (O&M) for Heritage Centres and Recreation Facilities;
Repairs to the Kitikmeot Regional Health Centre due to fire damages; and
An adjustment to the Qikiqtani General Hospital project for a 2006-07 carryover amount.
Mr. Chairman, Bill 15 appropriates supplementary operations and maintenance monies in 2007-08 in the amount of $5,472,000.
Nunavut Community Skills Information System;
Interdepartmental budget reallocation to reflect recentralization of employees to the Department of Finance; and
Pre-trades training.
Bill 17, Mr. Chairman, appropriates supplementary operations and maintenance monies in 2006-07 in the amount of $1,007,000.
This supplementary appropriation is required to provide funding of $1,007,000 for the Department of Health and Social Services’ overexpenditures for the 2006-07 fiscal year.
Mr. Chairman, this concludes my opening comments. I would be pleased to answer any questions that members may have.
Hon. David Simailak: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) With me today is Mr. Peter Ma, (interpretation ends) Deputy Minister of the Department of Finance.
And, if I may, Mr. Chairman, Roy Green, our Director of Expenditure Management and Projects, had been here also, unfortunately, his mother passed away last Friday so he’s down at home with his extended family, and on behalf of members, I would like to express our condolences to Mr. Green and his extended family.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister. Do members have any general comments?
There being none, I will go to Supplementary Appropriation (Capital) Act, No. 2, 2007-2008. On page 4.
Culture, Language, Elders and Youth. Capital. Not previously authorized.
Directorate. -$2,718,000.
Chairman: Total Directorate. -$2,718,000.
Chairman: Total Department. -$2,718,000.
Directorate. Special Warrants. $2,200,000.
Chairman: Not previously authorized. -$680,000.
Chairman: Thank you. Total Directorate.
Special Warrants. $2,200,000.
Chairman: Go back to page 2 in the Schedule.
Capital Appropriations. -$1,198,000.
Chairman: Go to Bill 14, again, in your white legislation binder.
Bill 14, Supplementary Appropriation (Capital) Act, No. 2, 2007-2008.
Supplementary Amounts Appropriated for the Fiscal Year Ending March 31, 2008.
Vote 2 Capital. Total Capital. -$1,198,000.
Chairman: Total Supplementary Appropriation. -$1,198,000.
Are you agreed to Bill 14 as a whole?
Chairman: Do you agree pursuant to Rule 62(2) that Bill 14 can be immediately placed in the Orders of the Day for third reading?
Bill 15, Supplementary Appropriation (Operations and Maintenance) Act, No. 2, 2007-2008.
Not previously authorized. -$361,000.
Chairman: Total Directorate. Not previously authorized. -$361,000.
Does the committee agree?  Some Members: Agreed.
Not previously authorized. $361,000.
Chairman: Total Policy and Planning.
Chairman: Comptrollership.
Not previously authorized. $1,360,000.
Chairman: Total Comptrollership.
Total Department. $1,721,000.
Not previously authorized. $987,000.
Chairman: Total Culture and Heritage.
Chairman: Community Programs.
Not previously authorized. $668,000.
Chairman: Total Community Programs.
Chairman: Sport Nunavut.
Not previously authorized. $1,063,000.
Chairman: Total Sport Nunavut.
There is an increase in O&M supplementary for Health. Oh, sorry.
I thought it was total government, no? Okay, I’ll wait.
Page 6 of Bill 15.
Total Sport Nunavut.
Not previously authorized. $2,718,000.
Special Warrants. $400,000.
Chairman: Total Adult Education and Post-secondary Services.
Not previously authorized. -$1,360,000.
Not previously authorized. $385,000.
Not previously authorized. $1,969,000.
Mr. Arvaluk: Mr. Chairman, you said to provide funding of $159,000 for the establishment of a vice-president position.
Does that include housing, relocation and all of that, or is that just straight salary for the vice-president?
Hon. David Simailak: I’m told that would include both salary and benefits.
My question to the minister, as there was no backup information during the briefing that we had with the Regular Caucus on that position, I’m wondering, I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Nunavut Housing Corporation exactly where this position is going to be located.
Will the minister provide further information of at least the roles and responsibilities of that position to all of the committee members of the standing committee, as well as this committee, please?
That position will be here in Iqaluit.
Under the delivery strategy involving multi-departments and industry efforts in training, apprenticeship, (inaudible) business development, intensified new construction, and community based delivery methods.
That will also be involving the communities, hamlets, local housing organizations, territorial Inuit organizations, and other housing stakeholders in the territory.
The position, if it includes all of the other benefits, it would appear to be a role in my estimates.
When we look at the CGS technical position, I think there was a more clear allocation of $385,000, which includes housing, benefits and everything else, and so on.
I would like to ask the minister: are you satisfied this is exactly what it is, or will you be coming up with an additional approach for this guy?
You’re not going to attract that amount of quality for that position, in my view, if you and I wonder why you would want that position located in headquarters when you have a headquarters located in Arviat.
Yes, the position will be here as it has responsibilty in ensuring that the projects we are working on are continuing. That position is important because we have to make sure the houses are being built properly and we also have to make sure that the training we offer is adequate.
Mr. Curley: Mr. Chairman, my question is this: the Housing Corporation appears to be quite top heavy. You have a minister. I don’t know what you do full-time.
You have a president, which, in my view… I will also ask him in the winter session whether or not he is really occupied full-time.
You have regional staff in the three regions that supposedly are responsible for carry out all the projects because they do differ in terms of the traffic and transportation routes and so on.
So I’m wondering whether or not you’re really going to be getting value for the money.
Would you not be better served if you were to break up that figure and move the regional position in order ensure that materials are tracked and so on?
One position in headquarters is not going to work because you’re really establishing a top-heavy corporation, when, in fact, I believe you should sort out the roles and responsibilities because we’re not sure now that the corporation actually performs to the best for Nunavummiut by having quite a top-heavy individual pretty much sharing the same responsibilities.
So would you agree to undertake a more thorough review of your corporation and have that information at least discussed through this committee in the winter session?
Page 10 of Bill 15.
Chairman: Go back to page 2 of Schedule 1. Page 2.
Operations and Maintenance Appropriation. $5,472,000.
Go to Bill 15 in your legislation binders.
Go to page 3 of the bill.
Supplementary Amounts Appropriated for Fiscal Year Ending March 31, 2008.
Total Operations and Maintenance. $5,472,000.
Chairman: Total Supplementary Appropriation. $5,472,000.
Chairman: Is the committee agreed to Bill 15 as a whole?
Chairman: Do you agree pursuant to Rule 62(2) that Bill 15 can immediately be placed on the order paper of the day for third reading?
Bill 17, Supplementary Appropriation (Operations and Maintenance) Act, No. 4, 2006-2007.
I think we have been quite vocal about this in the last year, especially when the PYs from the hospital here in Iqaluit were transferred to Pangnirtung. Most of the MLAs from Baffin have concerns about rising costs associated with this relocation of PYs from the general hospital here to Pangnirtung.
I think there is a significant expenditure incurred when the patients have not made their flight schedules home due to the employees office in Pangnirtung had closed down at a certain point in the evening, I think I was told around six o’clock and, of course, on the weekends.
That person has to wait for the weekend or another extra day, depending on how frequently the air schedule flies into those communities in the Baffin region.
I’m also told that there are significant daily expenditures at the Tammaartarvik, when you stay at the Tammaartarvik, unnecessarily because the office is not right here in the hospital.
I also argued that this was not a regional position. This is not a decentralized actual move from the hospital employee to Pangnirtung.
I think the government has to note, especially the Department of Health to note, that these PYs contribute quite significantly, I don’t have the numbers, and the Department of Health doesn’t want to review, or at least find out what extra costs associated with missing the flights to home due to the office not being right here in the hospital.
There may be a significant increase for people going to hospitals to deal with the new equipment in the new hospital, so it is quite imperative that this must be reviewed. The location of the travel for patients, PYs, must be in the hospital for practical purposes and for practical reasons, nothing else, because the ministers are living in Iqaluit.