EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
I think it’s important that this be in there. I think that this document we have before us is improving each year. I will assure the member that we are currently working on the next leasing activity report and we will try and to ensure that information, such as the one he is asking for, is included.
One thing that we have to keep in mind is there are times when contracts are given out to companies and the ownership may change or what have you. So we have to ensure that the information he is asking for is true at the time the contracts were given out to the appropriate companies.
We will do what we can to ensure that there is a line in here or some way of highlighting the issues that my colleague is asking to be highlighted.
We will work to ensure that it is, if it can be, adjusted in the next document.
We’re going to take a break now. All members are going to meet at the Tuktu Room and we will ring the bells when we’re ready to convene.
>>Committee recessed at 16:18 and resumed at 16:32
Chairman: I would like to welcome everybody back.
We’re going to have general comments here on Tabled Document 248, contract activities, Document 249, lease activities, and Tabled Document 251, procurement activities, anything to do with CG&S.
The government’s most recent annual report on procurement activities indicates that it issued a total of $6,928,000 worth of consulting service contracts in 2007-08 and in 2008-09, it issued a total of $17,248,000 in consulting service contracts.
In 2009-2010, the government issued a total of $10,744,000 in consulting service contracts. What accounts for this decrease?
There are a number of factors that are involved in that.
Some of them are in terms of long-term contract activities.
Maybe I could have my deputy respond to it in more detail.
That actually is the case. We do have some variance in the amount of consulting work and that’s primarily due to the length of contracts.
Not all contracts for consulting services last one year. Some of them go over more than one year, so the value would be recorded in a particular given contract year as opposed to the full duration and term of the contract.
So that’s primarily just due to different size and different length of contracts.
The government’s most recent annual report on procurement activities indicates that “The contract details presented in this report reflect information recorded at the time of contract issuance.
Information such as the award value represents the upper limit of a contract as established and agreed by the parties.” Does your department track the amounts that are ultimately paid to each company or individual?
The government’s most recent annual report on contract activities indicates that in the 2009-2010 fiscal year, Inuit firms were awarded 584 out of 1,783 contracts issued by the GN. In 2008-09, Inuit firms were awarded 545 out of 1,521 contracts issued by the GN. In 2007-08, Inuit firms were awarded 534 contracts. In 2006-07, Inuit firms were awarded 410 contracts.
However, although a total of 89 consulting services contracts were awarded by the government in 2009-2010, approximately 90 percent of these contracts were awarded to non-Inuit firms or individuals. What accounts for the relatively low number of consulting services contracts being awarded to Inuit firms?
Very good question. It all depends on the contracts and who bids on them. There are times when there are no Inuit consulting firms that do bid on contracts, so that happens too.
It all depends on the contracts and who bids on them. So I guess that’s the answer, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Ugyuk: In relating to that question, if there are Inuit firms bidding, are they bidding too high?
Again, it’s on a case-by-case basis. In the cases where an Inuk firm bids on it, it may be they’re not compliant with part of the contract.
It may be because they’re too high on the contract.
It could be based on their inability to work on the contract. It’s really on a case-by-case basis, Mr. Chairman, on whether an Inuit firm gets the contract, should there be an Inuk firm that bids on the contract and they’re compliant. There are different criteria and the evaluation process vets through that, Mr. Chairman.
Approximately how many of the government’s positions are currently being filled on a contractual basis by consultants who are not actually members of the public service?
That question is better answered by the Department of Human Resources as they are the ones who deal with government employees and those in employment contracts.
Ms. Ugyuk: During last year’s review of the government’s annual contracting reports, members raised concerns about the government’s dependence on consultants to undertake work that is normally performed by public servants, especially in the areas of policy and legislative development. What has the government done to address these concerns?
I don’t mean to be pushing these off to departments other than myself, but I cannot respond to issues that are not the responsibility of Community and Government Services specifically on that question, Mr. Chairman.
I don’t mean to be evading the question, but I think it’s better answered by an appropriate department that would deal with hiring employees on a contract basis to fill vacant government positions.
Does the Minister of Human Resources want to answer that question?
Could I have Ms. Ugyuk ask that question again.
Chairman: Go ahead, Ms. Ugyuk.
Ms. Ugyuk (interpretation): Thank you. (interpretation ends) During last year’s review of the government’s annual contracting reports, members raised concerns about the government’s dependence on consultants to undertake work that is normally performed by public servants, especially in the areas of policy and legislative development.
What has the government done to address these concerns?
I think it’s a very valid question.
I think it’s not only with developing policies and vacant positions in policy; it’s with positions throughout the government service. There are times when it’s very difficult to fill specific needs for specific positions.
During the long term, you do want to run competitions and try to fill these positions with the best qualified people that you can.
However, I believe, in the interim, contracts need to be awarded, to be done, to carry on and get the work done.
A number of former government employees have been awarded contracts by the government to perform work that would normally be performed by full-time employees.
Concerns have been raised that employees have an incentive to leave the government in order to return as consultants who perform the same work for more income.
Will you commit to working with the Minister of Human Resources to implement a policy whereby people who leave the government cannot be awarded government contracts or be hired to work as consultants until a certain period of time has passed?
I think the government is working to get away from as many contracting as possible. I assure the members that we are working to fill as many positions as possible. Sometimes it’s hard to fill technical positions immediately and sometimes the best person for the job had left for other reasons than to try to get a contract from the government.
Mr. Chairman, we are working hard as a government to ensure that these positions, technical or otherwise, be filled within our territory and be filled as quickly as possible, but that’s not always possible on any given situation. I assure members that we are working to alleviate the issue she brings up.
Ms. Ugyuk: Can the minister answer the last part of my question, “… until a certain period of time has passed.”
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: I assured her, yes, we are working towards the goals and means she’s asking for and it includes that.
In 2007-08, the government awarded $2,312,000 in contracts to the information technology company Donna Cona. In 2008-09, the government awarded $1,742,000 in contracts to this company. In 2009-2010, the government awarded over $4.9 million in contracts to this company.
Some of these contracts included $300,000 for a project manager, $300,000 for a database administrator, $250,000 for a data communications engineer, and $150,000 for a senior web developer.
Why can’t the government hire full-time staff to perform these functions and are there any steps that it can take to become less dependent on outside companies to provide information technology services?
On those particular details, I would ask Ms. Lausman to respond.
A couple of answers to that.
We actually have a number of standing offers for consultants in the technology field and we tend to rely on them as required. We have been working at implementing our new WAN-LAN-MAN project, so we’ve had a higher need than usual over the last year or so.
We do have a number of vacancies within our technology area and we have been working over the last 10 months to get staffing actions in place.
We’re currently staffing some positions. I believe we’ve got a total of 17 positions or 19 positions out for staffing actions and we have been working at this, as I said, for about 10 months. We’re hoping to better the average on staffing that was reported in the OAG’s report of 318 days but we continue to work at it.
Some of these skill sets are very hard to find and we’ve had to change the way we approach the marketplace to find interested individuals in applying for these jobs and we continue to keep trying to staff. It’s definitely our desire to have staff rather than continue to have consultants for regular work.
On February 17, 2009, the federal Competition Bureau publicly announced that criminal charges had been laid against a number of companies “accused of rigging bids to obtain Government of Canada contracts for information technology services.”
One of the companies that were charged was Donna Cona. Is the Government of Nunavut aware of the current status of the charges against the company Donna Cona?
If I could have Ms. Lausman respond to that, Mr. Chairman.
In answer to that question, we are aware of that process right now with the federal government.
It was, I believe, in conjunction with a number of federal contracts. So we certainly are staying connected with that process. I believe that it’s not yet concluded and it is separate from our relationship with that company.
We have procured their services through a standing offer agreement and went out to competition and that company, along with a couple of others, actually provide services to us.
The issue of ensuring that the Government of Nunavut is not the victim of bid rigging was raised during last year’s consideration of the government’s contracting reports.
Over the last year, has the GN introduced any new measures to ensure that its departments and Crown corporations, including the Nunavut Housing Corporation, are protected against bid rigging?
I will ask Ms. Lausman to respond to that.
Certainly the pricing in response to tenders and RFP, and so on, is always a concern on actually every type of contract.
We haven’t taken any detailed approach to a policy around bid rigging. What we have taken is a very detailed approach to actually how we procure.
Most of our RFPs depend on criteria other than price and that would include a number of standing offers.
Also, in dealing with contracts around construction, we meet with the construction association and we meet with the contractors to better understand some of the pricing challenges that we have through contracts we have with them.
We are in conversations with the marketplace that we deal with so that we can get a better understanding of what’s driving pricing, what’s driving costs, and what’s driving the capacity in the contracting marketplace that limits the number of folks who bid on our contracts, which all affect the price.
So I would suggest that we’re not as concerned with outright price-fixing or bid rigging. We certainly got a rigorous enough contracting process and procurement process to ensure that we are very mindful of spotting any of that.
Our concern is that we’re probably not getting the amount of competition that we want for contracts and that’s having an effect on the prices that we end up paying for work.
In 2009-2010, your department awarded approximately $750,000 in contracts to the company Ant and Bee. These included such items as a $225,000 contract for a senior database administrator and $150,000 for a senior helpdesk technician. How is your department ensuring that it receives good value for these expenditures?
Those are a couple of more consultants that we’ve had to bring on stream to handle the new network build that we’re doing and some of the work that we are working on to implement our new Exchange 2010. So we’ve got some upgrades on some of the operating systems that we’re using, as well as assisting other departments in the implementation of various software programs.
So all I can say is that we have contracts with each one of these individuals. We work them very hard. We have them meet the deliverables that they have been asked to meet.
We have some fairly stringent timelines that we actually need to accomplish this work. So there is very little that goes on in the technical side of this business that doesn’t show up somewhere if it’s not happening. We can attest to that with many helpdesk requests that we get to solve issues and so on.
In 2009-2010, your department awarded a $638,600 sole source contract to Aarluk Consulting to develop integrated community sustainability plans.
Why was this contract sole sourced and what is the status of the development of these plans?
I think I’ll ask Ms. Lausman to respond to that question.
The ICSPs are actually a requirement of the gas tax and they’re connected to the Nunavut Association of Municipalities and the committee that we have to actually decide on hamlet priorities for various projects under the gas tax.
Given that it was a requirement of the gas tax and we had a certain timeline to accomplish a really large task, we had to work with a consultant who was able to meet those requirements and fulfill this task in a short period of time.
This particular consulting company is on a standing offer list and has all kinds of familiarity with both this type of work and also the communities that the work had to take place in. So that’s the justification for actually approaching this company to do this particular task.
I have a number of questions with your indulgence, Mr. Chairman.  A number of outside consultants at many times, as we do our research, are being hired to do some consulting studies in Nunavut.
One is contract C247 and this has to do with the Nunavut water licence. The other one is tangible capital asset reporting and again this is contract No. C1637.
The other one is contract C1492 and this has to do with the fire marshal plan reviews. My question is: why are we hiring outside consultants to do these things, to perform the work, where we have people in Nunavut who are just as capable of doing these things?
I’m just trying find out exactly which ones he is talking about.
Mr. Chairman, I think some of them have gone through a request for proposals.
There was a public request for proposals, so those were done through the public tendering process.
And did he say “1497,” Mr. Chairman?
Request for proposals for sole source contracting is not my problem.
The problem is why outside consultants are being hired to perform this work instead of hiring… .
We have capable people in Nunavut.
That’s my concern and that’s what I would like to see.
If you want me to repeat the contract numbers, I will do so. For your information, C247, this has to do with the Nunavut water licence; C1637, this has to do with tangible capital asset reporting; and finally, the fire marshal plan review, C1492.
Why use the consultants from outside?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: Mr. Chairman, they were done through a bidding process, going through evaluation criteria, and it was done through an open process, Mr. Chairman.
And I believe 247 is a registered Nunavut company.
Is there a Nunavut consultant living outside the jurisdiction of Nunavut? Perhaps I can get clarification on that.
If that is the case, then I have no problem at all.
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: Just bear with us, Mr. Chairman. I’m just trying to flip through the pages here.
Maybe I’ll ask Ms. Lausman to respond to that question, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Lausman: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I understood this question correctly, there are a number of companies registered in Nunavut to do business in Nunavut that are also registered in the Northwest Territories, perhaps the Yukon, and perhaps a number of places.
I would suggest that’s particular to engineering companies, architectural consultants, and planning consultants. They do business, a lot of them, actually, right across Canada and sometimes even into the States.
In recent times, we heard that we have different problems with municipal services like water management and other things. In 2009-2010, Mr. Minister, through the Chairman, your department awarded a $178,740 contract to a company to perform a waste water study and this is contract C128.
A number of members have been raising concerns about the issue of water quality and treatment in Nunavut communities.
What were the results of this waste water study and will you commit to tabling it in the Legislative Assembly?
If I could ask Kathleen to give a detailed answer on that particular contract.
In answer to the question, this specific contract was actually focused on the waste water study in Rankin Inlet.
There has been a fair bit of growth in Rankin Inlet as a community, including an awful lot of new buildings going up and having to extend the water and waste water services out to these new buildings.
We typically engage consultants to help plan that and to detail the design of the solutions for extending the utilidor, is actually what it is, and to ensuring that our lagoon has adequate capacity for this additional activity that’s going to be on stream once all of the buildings are completed.
In this case, it’s the healing facility in Rankin Inlet, the trades centre, and a number of housing units that are still under construction, actually, that will create some more capacity issues in Rankin Inlet itself.
In 2009-2010, NTCL received approximately $17.0 million in fuel resupply contracts. In April of 2004, the Government of Nunavut filed a lawsuit against NTCL for approximately $7.5 million to recover costs incurred by the government for its “bad gas” compensation program. Without discussing the specifics of this case, when does the government anticipate that it will be finally resolved and is it satisfied that NTCL has successfully addressed the problems with gasoline quality that led to this lawsuit being filed?
Before I answer that question, Mr. Chairman, I just want to apologize to Mr. Ningark. I believe I said that Dillon Consulting was a Nunavut contractor. I didn’t mean to mislead you.
I read a wrong line on here, so if I can retract that.
Mr. Chairman, in response to the answer that Ms. Ugyuk is asking me, unfortunately I cannot respond to that only because our department is not the lead on that particular issue. It is better answered by Finance and Justice because they’re the lead departments on that, Mr. Chairman. Maybe it could be raised at an appropriate time.
The Minister of Finance can answer that question.
I’ll give it a good shot here.
If you could bear with me, the “bad gas” lawsuit has been dragging on for a long time and the parties to the lawsuit are in and out of court.
The judge, I believe, in February, ordered the Government of Nunavut to produce certain documents.
The lawyers from both parties will review the documents privately and at some point, the judge will set a date for a trial.
In 2009-2010, your department awarded a $98,000 contract to the Mariport Group to undertake a sealift open market study (contract C219).
You tabled a report on this issue in the Legislative Assembly on June 2, 2010.
Can you update us today on the status of the government’s plans with respect to sealift?
I would like to thank my colleague for helping respond to the previous question.
Yes, we have gone out to tender on the sealift contracts.
In 2009-2010, your department paid $150,000 to Ayaya Marketing and Communications for weekly tender ads (contract C814). Recently, the government has been posting many of its RFPs and tenders on the Internet.
Are you looking at reducing the amount of advertisements that are placed in newspapers in order to save money?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: Mr. Chairman, we’re not trying to limit any interest out there for contracts, so we’re trying to expand it as much as possible.
Internet seems to be a new way of communicating and getting information out there, so it’s just another tool for us to gain interest in contracts, Mr. Chairman.
It’s not going to take away from the current practice of using as much media as we can to get the best value for our dollar.
The government publishes many of its tender and RFP advertisements in more than one language.
Can you provide a breakdown of the languages in which the government actually receives bids and proposals from companies and individuals?
I would like to thank her for realizing that we do put out the tender documents in the languages of Nunavummiut.
To date, I would not be wrong in saying that all of our responses have been in English, Mr. Chairman.
There might be only one that has responded in French but other than that, it’s mainly English.
I would like to go back to Mr. Rumbolt’s question in regard to the information technology and the company that’s hired to do the work for the Government of Nunavut.
Ms. Lausman was mentioning about the WAN-LAN-MAN. I know the Government of Nunavut spent quite a bit of money on developing those systems.
I’m just wondering: in terms of these contracts that are going out and with the new WAN-LAN MAN systems, once these systems are set up and used within the communities across the territory, do we have the capacity to maintain them ourselves or are we going to have to continue to have to hire people to operate them?
Right now, we do have computer information technology staff that do work with our current computer and Internet programming. We will do what we can to train them to ensure that we can deal with issues that may arise with the new system, Mr. Chairman.
Again in terms of putting up these contracts, I’m trying to ensure that more Nunavummiut are hired in these positions. When they are issuing them, have you put any thought to possibly have like… ? Maybe you guys are already doing this, but do you have mentoring, job shadowing, and training that goes alongside with this?
Hon. Lorne Kusugak: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have an IT department and they’re very proficient in running the current system and where need be and if required, staff will be trained how to work with the new program.
I guess it’s like teaching people who know how to drive a car how to drive a faster car. We will work with them. We will try as much as possible to train our staff and in the years, if we find that we need more staff, we will go about it that way.
The plan is to work with the college where we can in terms appropriate training for our staff to ensure that the WAN-LAN-MAN system runs as smoothly and efficiently as it could for the government.
When you were using the analogy of driving a faster car, not being very mechanically inclined, one of the things I find is… . Again, do we have people within the IT department to not necessarily just drive the new vehicle, but do we have people to fix it? That’s what I’m worried about.
To me, that would be ongoing expenses to make sure it works.
Coming from the community side, when you’re sitting in the community, your Internet is down, and you have to put in health records, for example, and the system is not working, you might wait a week to get some technician in there to do it or we might have to contract someone. So that’s the concern I have. Are we capable of doing that?
We are capable; it depends what we are capable of.