EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
I was just wondering if the minister could explain why there is a difference.
The total education capital budget for that school is 14.2 million.
Let's get that very clear.
For anything else in comparison to other schools that the member is asking about, they are estimates also, but a lot less accurate than this one.
For example, Baker Lake we have a budget for that but we just don't know until we have community consultations, the design, an agreement about the design and the location in Baker Lake that we then will know a lot better exactly what capital requirements Baker Lake will have.
Chairperson (interpretation): Is that all.
When we put forth a recommendation yesterday, we put into effect a motion yesterday and I do not understand why, for example, the Hamlet has to come up with a certain percentage of the capital projects that the government will manage.
Why is it that the Department of Education is taking a project on to themselves from a different department.
(interpretation ends) It is the same government transferring from one department to another.
If the community could raise money that the government would match why is there department to department matching of costs.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you. Minister Arvaluk.
Because we are not doubling the size that we would normally use to build a school for Cambridge Bay.
We are only increasing it from the standard criteria requirement to a full size, which is not doubling our original budget.
Chairperson (interpretation): Are you done. Mr. Tootoo.
Mr. Chairman, on the capital part there, there is a line for capital recoveries.
It is my understanding and you indicated earlier there is approximately 10 million dollars that is from the government insurance, I am just wondering why that's not shown in the recoveries.
All the insurance recoveries go to the Department of Finance for them to administer and they receive it on behalf of the government.
It does not go to the Department of Education.
Mr. Chairman, earlier the minister indicated that the standards and criteria that are used for this project, and correct me if I'm wrong, indicated that this project is going beyond the regular standards and criteria that would be applied to a project by allowing a larger gym and a heritage centre to be included in the proposal.
I just want to get some clarification there.
We have a budget for Cambridge Bay school under the normal standards and criteria and the budgets are being allocated for that school.
As for the enlarged gymnasium, there was a request by the community and the support of other communities too.
I met with the people of Cambridge Bay last fall to have a fairly in-depth discussion on it, not just with the people in Cambridge Bay but also with the Hamlet and the Kitikmeot Regional Council, which are in support.
They also told the Premier, so the Premier and I agreed that if the community can raise the funds as has been done in the past, in fact the GNWT have done that in the past with the same arrangements so there is already a precedent there.
As for the heritage centre this is being funded through Culture, Language, Elders & Youth that is again not part of the Education budget.
I guess it is beyond normal standards and criteria.
If I could ask the minister how much of those two projects the ones that are included in the education budget and in the Culture, Language, Elders & Youth budget.
Are there any additional costs incurred by the building itself, the structure itself because of those projects.
In the space provided in the school for those purposes.
Hon. James Arvaluk: I do not want the member to answer for me please, the answer was no.
We do not go beyond the standards and criteria if we were to build.
Our budget reflects if we are to build the school the way we have it designed without the large gym.
The money is still the same.
With the large gym there is community support financially.
The heritage centre is a completely separate budget as well.
The heritage centre is like a house and if you decide to put an extra room or porch those are separate costs altogether.
It does not increase the cost to your original house and this is completely separately funded.
So that answer is no.
It does not create extra budget requirement of the department to have the enlarged gym and the heritage centre.
Mr. Chairman I am a little confused.
I think he stated there are extra dollars, 395 thousand that was allocated for the larger gym.
Is the minister saying that if that larger gym was not there the 395 thousand dollars would be still included.
I do not see how the size of gym would have been allocated there.
To me by enlarging it is adding an extra 395 thousand dollars.
I do not see how that could not change the money going to the project.
Hon. James Arvaluk (interpretation): The community has agreed to put in 20 percent of the total cost of the gym and for anything with figures that requires subtracting and adding to the exact point I think I would rather have Murray Horn answer that.
Chairperson: Are you finished Mr. Tootoo.
I am sorry who did you say was going to respond.
Mr. Horn.
I am not quite sure what the real question is the member is asking.
We had the building designed, the design footprint has sufficient space for an enlarged gym.
The money needed to construct the enlarged gym was then allocated by cabinet, and the community through their own efforts are raising funds to assist with that.
So that is where it rests today.
Chairperson (interpretation): Who was next.
So then, if I am correct, there were additional dollars allocated for the larger gym.
I am just wondering if that could be clarified.
I understood Mr. Horn to say that the footprint was there, the footprint allowed for a larger gym, and cabinet approved additional dollars for that gym.
That is what I heard.
I just wanted to make sure that is what I heard.
Chairperson (interpretation): Which of you is to respond.
Mr. Chairman we had been talking with the community of Cambridge Bay and when we verbally agreed to look into that and when we got back to them and said yes we can do this, the community immediately started doing the fundraising.
I got a letter from Mr. Wilcox stating that the community could pursue it.
So therefore we have in this case designed a large gym with capital dollars because we know in any community including Cambridge Bay they can not raise that amount of money overnight.
We appreciate that this is one community that is trying to do it for themselves instead of just asking the Government to foot the bill for everything.
So we appreciate that and we welcome that.
Mr. Akesuk (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Chairman: My question is in regards to the 390 thousand dollar funds for expanding or creating a larger gym.
It seems to be that we should have allocated this type of money to something of a more priority nature.
We could have used the 390 thousand dollars for something else.
You have to look at the teacher student ratio and how the classes are overcrowding.
So there could have been other uses rather than the enlargement of the gym.
Hon. James Arvaluk: Thank you Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) We reviewed that and the amount of 390 thousand dollars is not a great addition to the school project.
For example, it will not really affect the monies that are going towards the school project.
Cambridge Bay is located in the central area between the Keewatin and the Kitikmeot.  and you have many people going back and forth.
They do not have a facility of that size in Cambridge Bay.
Considering they might want to host games in the future, there are no big facilities in that area.
We have begun work on the other priority communities like Baker Lake and Clyde River but at the same time we know the Kitikmeot is going to need a facility somewhere in the region.
We thought it should be in Cambridge because of so much traffic going through there.
We will put the money in and if we want to do an expansion later without the aid of the community, it would be very costly.
They would have to tear some portions apart and rebuild it and to do it with the community support it would be less costly in the long run.
Okay if that is the case then the other communities who are willing to produce 25% of the budget that is required are they given permission to do so if they wished.
Hon. James Arvaluk (interpretation): Do you know the size of Cambridge Bay.
I was there this summer.
I went to visit the schools to see how many schools they have.
I met with the teaching staff and right now they are scattered all over the place trying to continue the education.
The number of students are going to equate to the size of the building.
The usage of the school will be in proportion to the population numbers.
Looking at it in the long run we are actually making savings because part of the costs are being built in by the community.
Had we not done it this way it would have cost the Nunavut Government more in the long term.
There are three regions and in the Baffin and three communities that are the same size as Cambridge Bay.
If that is the situation then would the three other communities also be able to do as Cambridge Bay.
How many times do I have to say this, all of the schools will be reviewed in the 20 year long term plan.
These people need one and let's give them one right now.
We can make plans and preparations for their facility requirements but these will be included in the 20 year-plan.
The community has to be treated according to their needs.
That is how we have to look at it but we do not know if they want to do it like in Cambridge Bay where the community raised their own funds.
As long as the population warrants it then we will look at it according to the wishes of the people.
He says he is looking at this as a 20 year plan.
I heard this before I think it was last year.
I heard that they wanted a bigger gym in that school and it was in the News North and Nunatsiaq News.
If you look at this in a 20 year term it seems to me they got their review and their plans in place within a year.
Meanwhile the other communities have to wait for a 20 year time span.
Chairperson: Thank you Mr. Akesuk.
There is no high school in Cambridge Bay.
Right now they are using Hamlet offices for high school students.
I have a list of where they are holding their classes and they are trying to do their physical education in other places.
So this is an urgent item.
Students and community members were interested in supporting us.
We were going to go and visit them.
We will be looking at our 20 year plan by visiting all the communities for those reasons.
For those reasons we agreed that the Government, particularly the department of education is not in contravention of any of it’s Acts.
I also want to respond that if we build a new school wherever it may be in the communities we will also be looking at what the numbers will be in those classrooms.
The gym we can speak at length about this later as to what the community’s requirements are.
The school in Cape Dorset has a capacity for elementary and high school.
So we are not saying we are going to require a new gym.
What we are trying to do is produce plans and the plan for Cambridge Bay is something we had prepared for and worked for under the goals of the Department of Education.
Chairperson (interpretation): We will continue at this time in Corporate services.
Kitikmeot region.
Total Kitikmeot region, 10 million, 803 thousand.
First, I should ask a question.
Are the schools insured, I will make another comment afterwards.
Hon. James Arvaluk (interpretation): All the schools are insured.
Why is it that when the particular school was insured why is it that they did not use the insurance money to build a new high school.
I do not know how many times I have answered that question.
We are using the insurance money.
Like Mr. Tootoo said it is about 10 million dollars.
Following the Finance Administration Act they take the money or the revenue on behalf of the Government.
This 8.2 million dollars does not go directly go to the Department of Education, it goes to the general revenues.
All revenues coming in by way of property tax, insurance or whatever any revenue goes to Finance.
It does not go directly into the Department.
I think I finally got it.
Another question is the 2000-2001 capital estimates.
There are prior year’s costs and future year’s costs.
What does that mean now.
Looking at the heading, they are all zeros I do not know if it is for three years.
Could you clarify the headings.
In the 2000-2001 capital estimates, 7 million 9 hundred thousand would be used.
Not 14 million.
Three years will have used up that 14 million dollars in the three year span.
Yes, the capital estimate that is being proposed by Government of Nunavut for the 2000-2001.
What we did last year is we used 1.6 million for architectural purposes and for the foundation of the building.
For the construction we will be using 7 million 9 hundred thousand dollars.
We will be requesting 4 million and 7 hundred thousand in these three years during the construction of the high school.
Total in those three years we will have used up 14 million 214 thousand.
This year because of course you can not construct a school and complete it in one year.
So we are going to be requesting dollars each year to complete the school in stages.
I agree now that it is clear.
Chairperson (interpretation): We are in the Corporate Services for the Kitikmeot region. 10.8 million dollars.
I am going to do a preamble and I will try to make my preamble short.
A few years back there was a lot of controversy in Repulse Bay regarding the extra cost in constructing the gym there.
The community was adamant that they wanted a larger gym.
That is what it came out to.
I was in that facility in December and it is excellent and it was well received in the community.
Through no fault of Cambridge Bay’s their school burnt down.
We are realising we have some of the insurance money back.
We do not want to have any of the buildings burn down. But the point I wanted to make is I just got off the phone with a couple of DEA members in Baker Lake.
They were saying they had discussions with the GNWT before we split on the size of the gym in the Jonah Amitnaaq school.
For some reason the standards and criteria were changed from what the existing gym is on that school now.
If the renovation goes ahead or the replacement whatever happens, it is going to be smaller.
They were quite aghast about that.
My question is did the standards and criteria change for larger gyms in schools in the last four or five years.
I am not sure about this issue. I do not know whether the GNWT changed the criteria.
I will ask Mr. Horn to answer that question.
I believe the standards and criteria we inherited from the GNWT were consistent with the planning we are using for all of our projects and to the best of my knowledge they have not changed.
I can certainly inquire and bring that to the minister's attention and advise the member.
To the best of our knowledge they have not changed over the last four or five years.
Chairperson (interpretation): At this time we are at the Kitikmeot region.
Corporate services total Capital Estimates 10.8 million.
I do not think my DEA was misinformed.
They were told the preliminary sketches that the gym was going to be over 200 or 300 square meters smaller.
Is that possible in the new standards and criteria. I know the Baker Lake school was built in 1957 before any other school in Nunavut.
But as far as you know the standards and criteria have not changed in the last three of four years on high schools.
It is an interesting question.
I think there is room for research on our part as to put the member’s mind and the DEA’s mind at ease.
The plans or the work for Baker Lake in our current capital plan we have just approved a few moments ago is to address that very issue.
The size of the gym, the current standards.
So whatever the school population is and the projection of the next couple of years that will determine the size of the school based on the current school and the student population.
That very same process was applied against the school in Cambridge Bay.
The Capital standards are a relatively recent thing in the Department of Education having been adopted in the 1988-1989 fiscal year.
So schools that were built before then were a little hit and miss in the sense of size of the gym but generally they stay within the 250 and/or 300 square meters.
So thus the reasons for establishing a series of criteria and standards in order that there be some consistencies among the schools.
We are still in the Kitikmeot region.
We have Mr. Barnabas.
Who wants to make comments.
Mr. Barnabas (interpretation): I will ask my question later.
Mr. Chairman, I am just wondering in the design of the building the minister indicated 1.6 million dollars for the design.
I am just wondering Mr. Chairman, I have been to quite of few communities in Nunavut and I have seen the schools in those communities.
Mr. Chairman, every school that I have seen is either a square or rectangle or is the most economical way for construction.
I am just wondering in light of the high architectural fees, is there something in the design of the school that the costs could be so high.
Is it like a square box like other schools in Nunavut.
Or is its design different.
Chairperson (interpretation): Mr. Horn.
Yes, the gym will probably be a rectangle and the design cost of the school, the general rule of thumb the Department of Public Works and Services have provided us seems to bear witness for all our projects is about 10 percent of the final costs.
It is built in that and that covers the community consultation process, the conceptual drawings, the work to build up to get to the point.
Mr. Chairman, I’m glad that the gym is going to be a rectangle.
I’m just wondering about the rest of the school.
With my experience with the Housing Corporation the design of construction, buildings have always been straight, littlest corners as possible and I’ve seen every school in Nunavut built that way, I’m just wondering if this school is built like that too or what.
To the best of our knowledge the design and the planning of the conceptual work is done with standard architectural design and in consultation with the community.
We try our very, very best to work in consultation with the community.
The project officers from the Department of Public Works and Services work very hard to keep that focus in mind as well as keep a design that is cost efficient, effective and provides the best learning environment for the children or the students.
Yes, it’s good thing I got more than three supplementary questions.
Is the design a square building or not.
I understood the design of the building is more contemporary with lots of curves and stuff like that.
That type of design and structure adds more costs and I just wanted to confirm whether the design of the school is square or are there lots of curves.
Maybe Mr. Chairman, I should just ask if the minister could provide us with some conceptual drawings to have a look at maybe that would be the easiest way to determine what the school is going to look like.
Hon. James Arvaluk: Mr. Chairman we certainly would but I’ll have to ask the Public Works to provide us with the design.
I’d appreciate it, I’m sure that those types of drawings must be here at headquarters and maybe we can get them as soon as possible to have a look at.
I guess another question I’d like to ask if the Minister is still planning to go ahead in providing a larger gym and the design is taken into account to add a heritage centre into this school.
Is the minister willing to commit that be, is that going to be a new standard that is set for all schools that they get a larger gym and a heritage centre in all the other schools as well.
Hon. James Arvaluk: We certainly hope so but that will be up to Culture, Language, Elders & Youth to determine that, but we certainly welcome it.
I guess I hope so and changing the standards and criteria to ensure that is going to be the case in this instance not only with the heritage centre but with the larger gym does that mean that the department is going to change those standards and criteria so every school has an opportunity when their turn comes up.
Will that be an automatic thing they get.
Hon. James Arvaluk: No, Mr. Chairman that will not be.
What I was saying is that the funding programs for the schools will still be the responsibility of the Department of Education.
What I am saying is any community who want to do fundraising, wants to work with Culture, Language, Elders & Youth or any other organization outside of the government for that matter or the co-operating companies who want to participate in getting the heritage centres built within or attached to the school in the communities we welcome that.
I’m not saying that the Department of Education will systematically change the standards and criteria including the heritage centres as part of the capital planning.
I’m not saying that.
But I’m open for discussion but at the same time we realize that the capital dollars available for Nunavut schools are not nearly enough to upgrade or expand some of these schools that are very much overcrowded.
But what I’m saying is we welcome any assistance we can get to get heritage centres in the new schools or older schools that are still in good shape to be added to that, if other organizations would like to contribute financially or otherwise.
I’d like to thank the minister for replying to the part of heritage centres but it’s clear from the minister’s statements earlier the larger gym is from within the Department’s budget.
Will that also be an option that’s available as a standard thing for all schools from this project on as well.
Certainly if a community like Cambridge Bay, Pangnirtung or Repulse Bay and communities like that would like to contribute financially to get a larger gym or the communities that are getting new high schools that reach the number to get the large schools we welcome that discussion with the communities.
We are committed to design with the inclusion of a community consultation before we build any schools from now on.
Because what we think is good for the community is not necessarily it, that’s why we are committed to visiting communities before we start making some school designs.
So, then Mr. Chairman is the minister saying that any community that is either getting a new school or renovations or anything like that done to them will be given, if they can come up with the 25% funding for their share, they will also automatically receive the other 75% from the Department of Education.
Chairperson: Arvaluk.
Hon. James Arvaluk: Mr. Chairman, I wish it was but the Financial Management Board has the final say as to whether we get this or not. Certainly the government is open to have any community who is trying to create independence through planning or financial fundraising or financial contributions to getting a gym is always welcome.
What I could commit to the member is that we will talk to any community who would say yes a similar arrangement that those other communities that have done this.
As I said before, Pangnirtung, Repulse Bay and now in the process of doing that with Cambridge Bay.
We will take a break after Mr. Barnabas’ comments.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to take a 30 minute break so that the regular members can have a meeting in one of the caucus rooms.
I would like to make a motion to take a 30 minute break.
Chairperson (interpretation): All in favour of taking a 30 minute break.
We will take a 30 minute break at the Tuktu Room.
>>Committee recessed at 5:06 pm and resumed at 6:14 pm.
Chairperson (interpretation): I think we can begin our meeting again.
The committee will come to order.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): I would like to go back to what we agreed to concerning the Baffin region capital estimates.
If you do not mind I had some questions under that department and I would like to refer to that section again.
Chairperson (interpretation): Are we agreed that we go back to the Baffin region section.
Mr. Nutarak go ahead.
Concerning Pond Inlet's new capital additions under capital projects the new high school addition, on page 9 -5.