EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Within the limited funds in the housing corporation, I’m glad the hon. minister is going to be lobbying the federal government to continue to discuss the growing housing issues in Nunavut. I would also like to acknowledge that the hon. minister is able to increase the funds to the housing corporation by $13,623,000 to the 2011-12 main estimates.
Mr. Chairman, incidentally, this $13 million fund that was able to increase a number of various items, is that coming from the sale of telehandlers that, when the member was on this side of the House, he had ambitious ideas of selling the telehandlers and make extra money to increase housing funds for Nunavut?
Hon. Fred Schell: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
No, it’s not the sale of the telehandlers. We haven’t dealt with that yet, just as we haven’t dealt with all of the extra material that we will be looking at once all of this construction is completed.
That is revenue we’re getting from the GN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Schell.
Ms. Ugyuk (inteprretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In his opening comments, it states, (interpretation ends) “$527,000 for administration related to increased costs for legal fees...” (interpretation) I would like to know what these legal fees are for.
Hon. Fred Schell: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank Ms. Ugyuk for that question.
The $200,000 legal fees are basically for legal fees for corporate administration for the mortgages because we don’t use the justice system of the government, so we have to pay for it separately.
So that’s basically what the money is for.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister Schell. (interpretation) Ms. Ugyuk, are you finished?
I wanted to just comment on an item the minister referred to in his opening comments. In English, it states, (interpretation ends) “The need for additional public and affordable housing continues to place a burden on the finances of the government...”
(interpretation) If we’re going to expect new housing units for public housing, I seem to recall the federal government’s position that until the recommendations had been implemented, we should not expect new funding.
Can the minister elaborate on this matter, (interpretation ends) Mr. Chairman?
I appreciate Mr. Ningeongan for that question.
Basically what we’re saying here is that we’re looking for alternatives in public housing.
One of the issues we are looking at is to see if the private sector could get involved in building houses that we can lease off of them.
The other issue is we are working on trying to satisfy the federal government in regard to doing another audit, which actually we’re meeting with the auditor this coming week with me, the president, and the board. Hopefully we can have this settled in such as way that the federal government is pleased that we are operating in a proper way.
Thank you, Mr.Chairman.
The minister and his officials are most likely aware of an issue that I first want to just comment on that I will raise questions on at the appropriate time.
In the smaller communities, private homeowners are seemingly locked into owning their houses because there is no market. When private homeowners wish to move to another community and try to sell their house, the unit sits, as there are no buyers who can purchase their house.
There is no market in the smaller communities, as the pool of potential buyers is practically non-existent.
Further, the private homeowners who are following the government’s wishes for residents to own their own homes are being placed in very difficult situations since they cannot sell their house, even though they want to move to a different community.
(interpretation ends) Mr. Chairman, (interpretation) I will try to get more information when we get to the page-by-page review, so I will conclude my statements for now.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Ningeongan. That was just a comment.
We are on page L-3.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): Thank you. (interpretation ends) Welcome, (interpretation) all of you. (interpretation ends) Familiar faces.
Thank you, Alain and Lori. (interpretation) I would like to ask the minister and I did hear about it during question period when he stated that there was another audit by the federal government.
In making a supplement to one of my colleague’s comments, I would like to know where this audit is coming from. Is it the CMHC that wants to see the audit or is it another entity?
I thank Mr. Curley for that question.
No, we’re doing it internally at the housing corporation.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. (interpretation) I don’t think he understood my question, so I’ll ask it in English. (interpretation ends) I do understand that the audit that you mentioned during question period in response to one of the members was that the audit was being conducted.
My question to you, really, is this: how was this communicated to the housing corporation from the federal government? Was it from CMHC or from any other minister?
It was not from CMHC.
Specifically, I believe it is performance stuff and so on.
You indicated that it was not a forensic audit but a management audit.
How far a period is that request being made to do that sort of a special audit in my view?
We have not decided that yet. We haven’t met with the auditors.
We’re going to be doing it this week and once we get the terms of reference, we will let Mr. Curley know.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister Schell.
The second point that I’m interested in: was that made through a letter of transmittal to the Nunavut Housing Corporation and, if so, was it explicitly clear [there would be] no new funding until something of this kind is done?
All of the other forensic audits that were conducted showed proof that there were no illegal activities of any kind.
So why would, then, the federal government make it conditional for this unique territory that they’re making it conditional?
I don’t think they would do it to the provinces in my view. So that’s why I’m asking whether or not that was made clear in the letter.
Just to clear it, there was actually no letter; there were just conversations on it, number one.
Number two, we never did a forensic audit on this. That was just an audit the last time it was done. There was no forensic audit ever done.
I think our whole cabinet really has to stand up to the federal government that we are a unique territory. Unlike provinces, we don’t have all kinds of revenues to convert to public housing or affordable housing. We’re pretty much dependent on the federal government to a large extent.
I am grateful, though, that you are looking for partnership possibilities in Nunavut for the small market that we have up here and I appreciate your response quite well.
I think we need to continue to stand up to the federal government because one of the MPs was involved in some of the policies of the previous administration. That implicated this administration with the other projects that are still tailoring off, but that’s more or less a comment.
My second question really has to do with conservation. I believe we need to step up the energy conservation program.
I know that houses are being built with a lot more energy efficient standards, and so on, but I believe, in terms of very high costs of maintaining for homeowners, that there have to be some more initiatives done.
I don’t know whether it’s safe to have a woodstove as an option or inclusion with an existing heating system because, talking to my friends, even here in Iqaluit, they tell me they reduce at least one-third or perhaps more of energy costs by using woodstoves as an option in their homes.
There was another from my region that told me recently that because of the very cold period, they have been putting their woodstove on occasionally during the day.
Would that be the kind of thing the housing corporation would be looking into and, if not, why not?
We’re always looking for ways of conserving energy. As a matter of fact, I have a woodstove at home, so I know what you’re talking about.
We’ve just got to make sure that hopefully what they burn in that woodstove is not a bunch of material from the housing corporation.
Anyway, there is limited, of course, scrap lumber around and that is an issue. I mean you can have a few woodstoves in certain communities, but if everybody had a woodstove, you would never supply it. I know, in the past, I have brought some wood in from down south on sealift, but that’s not very economical.
That’s just kind of nice to have, but it doesn’t make sense.
They’re making the new houses very energy efficient as they are. They’re well insulated, but we’ve got to balance between cost and actually energy saving when you’re constructing them.
But I do agree, like with your lighting and all of these different issues we have, that we should be looking at ways of saving costs.
Although I have brought this issue up with the government previously, I haven’t had the satisfaction of getting a clear answer on the government’s initiative to promote homeownership.
As most of us know, the market for selling and buying in the smaller communities is next to nothing, really.
Homeowners practically become victims of circumstances in cases like this. Even though the owners may want to leave the town, they can’t really afford to leave the existing home either because nobody wants to buy it.
In cases like this, has the housing corporation considered any means to recognize that problem within the system?
Thank you, Mr. Ningeongan, for that question.
Yes, that’s part of the housing strategy that we’re looking at, the homeownership “stragedy”…strategy.
We’re looking at different options to make it more affordable for homeowners to buy homes, which would help the individuals who have homes in the community.
Hopefully we can come up with a program that gives more incentives for people to get out of housing and get into the homeownership programs.
For the small communities, I do understand that there is really no market, such as there is in Iqaluit.
We are working on that and hopefully we will come up with a solution for that. The housing corporation could turn around and buy the homes also, but of course, we’ve got a lack of funds to be doing that.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Schell. (interpretation ends) The Chair recognizes that it has been a long day.
I agree with the minister on the homeownership tragedy he just mentioned.
That is the point I’m trying to make here, Minister Schell.
There is really no avenue for homeowners in the communities like Coral Harbour, for example, unless they come up with a means to rent that particular house to maybe a school teacher or that kind of initiative if they leave town.
The point I’m trying to make is that when you plan to leave town, you’re almost confined to your own home and become a victim of it simply because the market not being there.
I think it’s important enough for the Nunavut Housing Corporation to take a very serious look at that.
The only promotion for homeownership is that it seems to work in larger centres.
As you know, when it comes to smaller communities, it’s a different story altogether. For that reason, we have seen and I have seen people who had their own homes, selling it back to the housing corporation, as you mentioned earlier.
It seems to be the only avenue they have.
I would like to ask the minister and officials to take a good look at this issue because if they continue the trend of promoting homeownership, there’s got to be a means to support that initiative as well in a situation where the market is not going to be great.
That was just a statement.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Ningeongan. (interpretation ends) I know it was just a statement, but did you want to make your own statement?
I do understand what Mr. Ningeongan is talking about and this is part of our strategy that we’re working on.
As we get more homeownership in the communities, there is a better chance of selling the units if we make it more attractive for people to get into their own homes.
We are seriously looking at that.
To the point raised by my colleague, there are many homeowners here in Iqaluit. Many individuals, however, are not homeowners because it’s very expensive to mortgage your own house.
You’re looking at prices of $300,000 and beyond.
You have to make mortgage payments for a good number of years and the down payment is necessarily a large sum.
Young people who have just started their careers, who are just starting families, or who just recently got a spouse are unable to have their own house. There are many of them here.
Last year, the housing corporation’s finance department was in Arviat and moved to Iqaluit. I don’t know whether all the staff had agreed to move here.
With the housing corporation finance department managers having moved here, has that been beneficial?
I’ll let Lori Kimball answer that. That’s her department.
Yes, we relocated eight positions from Arviat and actually added an additional position to create nine positions.
Of those positions, we’ve got four filled with permanent indeterminate staff and we have four that are casuals right now. We actually are just wrapping up interviews for our SFO position and hope to have that filled very shortly, and then we will be focusing on the clerical positions after that. So we have been hiring from the top down, filling the manager positions and then letting them fill the positions that report to them.
On October 29 of 2010, a former minister of NHC announced the results of the Nunavut Housing Needs Survey. The Nunavut housing survey was designed to provide the corporation with the most current data and determine the exact needs of additional investment into housing for Nunavummiut and provide updated information for the 10-year Nunavut housing action plan.
Can you provide an update on how the NHC is using the survey results to secure additional funding from the federal government?
We’ve got the numbers of the housing units that are required for the communities. We have met with NTI and we’re working on the policy.
Ms. Ell: Any idea when that will be made available to the House?
We’re still working on it.
We haven’t got it finished yet, so I can’t actually give her an exact time.
The government stated previously and the minister just stated that the housing strategy was in place in their forecast review for housing in the year 2005 and it was also stated that they will no longer provide public housing in Iqaluit after five years.
Five years have lapsed.
In Rankin Inlet and Cambridge Bay, for the last ten years, it was indicated that no public housing would be provided.
Here in NHC’s 2012-15 business plan, they will further review the staff housing policy.
They have to look at a number of options for government staff housing in the future and to promote homeownership amongst employees.
Is the government going to make changes to staff housing policy as alluded to in 2005?
When is this strategy, in English, (interpretation ends) the GN’s Comprehensive Long-term Housing Strategy, (interpretation) be completed?
It’s basically a government strategy that we are working on. We’re working with all the different departments and looking at all the different sectors of housing. We’re looking at staff housing, homeownership, every other possibility, and it’s an ongoing thing.
We haven’t determined anything yet in regard to whether we’re going to eliminate staff housing in Iqaluit. It’s still in discussion stages and once we get it completed, we will let the committee members know.
The NHC’s 2012-15 business plan provides an update on one of its 2011-12 priorities to “Adopt and implement a revised Rent Scale and guidelines.” The status indicates that “Initial consultation and analysis of findings has been completed.
Options, along with their financial impact, are being prepared for 2012-2013. These options aim to reduce disincentives to employment and to support the goals of poverty reduction and other social programs.”
Can you provide information on the findings of this rent scale review, and who was included in the consultation?
We’re still working on the rent scale and we are reviewing it with all different agencies.
We can’t really reveal anything on it until it has gone through cabinet and through the board of directors at the housing corporation.
During last year’s appearance before the standing committee, the NHC and officials indicated that the NHC would be working with the federal government to secure additional funding to address homelessness in Nunavut.
To date, has the NHC been able to secure additional funding for homelessness in Nunavut?
They actually flew up to Iqaluit yesterday to meet with the president of the housing corporation, but there has been no additional funds allotted as of yet.
Maybe they can take a tour down the beach area.
Your NHC’s 2012-15 business plan provides an update on one of its 2011-12 priorities, which is “In collaboration with stakeholders, develop a long-term Homelessness Strategy and a corresponding implementation plan for responding to homelessness across Nunavut.”
The status indicates that “NHC has developed the new Tunngasugvik (homeless shelter funding) policy.” Can you provide information on this new homeless shelter funding, and how much does NHC propose to allocate towards this issue in 2012-13?
What we’re doing with that is we have $400,000 in funds and we’re using existing housing units to accommodate these shelters.
I want to start by asking questions about the audit that’s upcoming. I know Mr. Curley had asked some questions and I had asked questions in the House. It’s nice to know that you found out that CMHC has not asked for the audit to be done before more federal funding would come for the much needed housing we require.
I’m just wondering in terms of what the minister had said, he said it was a conversation with someone. Is this a conversation with a minister or someone with the federal department of housing?
It was a general comment from the federal government in general that they weren’t satisfied that we had all of our management in place, but they do also understand that we’re working on a lot of the initiatives that the Auditor General came out with because the Auditor General’s report came after this other report, which was actually not tabled in the House here until after.
Basically what we’re looking at is we’re just trying to satisfy all Nunavummiut who are still asking questions in regard to what happened with the $110 million, which is the main concern that I have.
I think, once we get the report out, we will be able to satisfy everybody that we have done everything we had to in order to get the housing corporation back on track.
In terms of the funding for this audit, how much is being budgeted for it?
We have not determined the terms of reference yet. We’re meeting with the auditor this coming week. Once we get the terms of reference put together, they will be giving us a price, and then we will know what the cost is going to be.
In terms of the funding, where exactly is that funding coming from?
Is it coming from within the Nunavut Housing Corporation budget that we’re approving today or is a special allocation coming from cabinet?
We can’t determine that yet. Once we find out what the amount is, we will have to determine where we’re going to take the funds from.
The minister had mentioned that he will be meeting, and I believe it is next week, to work out and talk about the terms of reference. In terms of that meeting, I’m assuming that he will be there. Mr. Barriault will be there.
Will the federal representatives that he’s had conversations with be there as well? If they’re the ones who are saying that they need specific answers, to me, for the forensic audit, it has to be very specific. So will they be there to outline what they need and what they require so we can find out the information to report back to them, to get this money that he’s talking about that they’re holding onto until they’re satisfied?
No, they won’t be there.
This is an initial meeting between the minister, the president of the housing corporation, the board, the chairman of the board, and the auditor. It’s not a forensic audit; it’s just an audit. Just to clarify, it’s not a forensic audit; it’s an audit.
We’re having a pre-meeting there and once we have determined what is required, we will go to the next step.
Mr. Elliott: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Minister.
That was leading to my next question. I was wondering how the new board and the chairman of the board have been involved in this process of going back over all of the issues and coming forward with a decision that an audit was required.
Is it a board decision that is directing you to do this or is it something that you directed the board to do?
This is a decision by me, the president, and the board.
It does help because, again, one of the things in mind that I’m trying to figure out is, and it’s a continuation of some of the conversations we’ve had over the last couple of years and the assurances we’ve had from different officials over the last couple of years and different ministers over the last couple of years, that everything is being looked at and everything is under control.
I believe there was, and I think I still have it here somewhere, an announcement made on October 28 of 2011 and all the assurances we were given by the former minister that the board was actually being set up and would maybe help with proper distribution of funding and align the Nunavut Housing Corporation up with what the Auditor General of Canada was saying.
I’m wondering if the minister could explain how much responsibility the board is being given.
This is an operating board, so they will be involved not in the day to day operation, but they will be involved in the policies, etcetera, and they will be in close contact with the president of the housing corporation.
I think there was talk when the board was established and when we passed Bill 10 in the House, I’ve got the Hansard here where it talks about strengthening its governance and oversight and strengthening oversight over the corporation’s risk management, capacity, and its overall performance and ensure a more comprehensive approach to the corporation’s strategic direction.
We approved funding for a board to help with alleviating some of the problems and concerns that were coming up.
We were told that this will set everything straight and now we’re being told that an audit is needed and then that will set everything straight.
I’m just wondering: is that going to be the end of it or is there going to be something else that we will be required to do to set things straight so that the Nunavut Housing Corporation functions in the manner it is meant to?
We’re not saying that the Nunavut Housing Corporation is not operating properly at the present time.
All we want to do is go back to the two programs, the housing trust and the incentive program, and make sure, if there were any mistakes made at the time, they won’t be made again in regard to the over-expenditures. That’s what we’re looking at.
We’re not saying that there aren’t things in place at the present time to deal with it. I think the housing corporation is working quite well right now. It’s just that we want to correct what had happened so that everybody is aware of what happened and that we can put it to rest once and for all.
Again thank you for that response.
I think that after we passed the bill, actually after we finished with the Auditor General, I had faith. I know there are a lot of hard-working employees.
I haven’t asked this question in a while in terms of directors’ bonuses and stuff like that, but I’m sure Mr. Barriault gets his, in terms of where the department has gone over the last couple of years, to correct a lot of the problems.
When you keep bringing it back to us saying that there is something wrong and it needs to be fixed, in my mind, that’s a red flag for questioning that there is something still not functioning properly.
Again, we’re getting mixed messages or at least I’m getting mixed messages that everything is running fine, but we need to do this to correct it. I just want some more assurances.