EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
If you are going to incorporate Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit, then you have to stop funding invasive research practices. Will you commit to not funding these invasive research practices?
We are under the microscope, as it were, with the whole world commenting on the practices used for polar bear research and management.
I had an opportunity to present the position of Nunavut on polar bears to the federal committee looking into the status of the bears. I also met with my federal counterpart to ensure that he understood the position of Nunavut and Inuit. He understood a lot more of the issues revolving around polar bears after I met with him.
With respect to the invasive research practices, I know we have room to improve the methodology.
As my colleague just pointed out, the issue requires all of the parties to work together to come to a common understanding and I don’t wish to pursue this unilaterally.
I also know that my staff recommend options such as alternative practices.
We understand the Inuit position in regard to the practice that they abhor, but polar bear research allows us to be able to present data and it shows the world that we are serious about managing our population. We’ve had lobbyists putting pressure on the government to improve our methods for population surveys.
And I cannot ascertain exactly what will happen, but I can assure you that all options will eventually be explored.
I understand where the minister is coming from, but to date, the government is haphazardly incorporating Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit, seemingly so without any plan or direction.
With respect to IQ and polar bears, many Inuit have stated that their observations lead them to conclude that many populations are too numerous and that this is affecting the bears.
I believe in my fellow Inuit and their observations because they are discussing actual observations.
The world knows about the Inuit position as it relates to polar bears, but the scientists dismiss this knowledge outright. That is the reason why the international committees that meet to discuss polar bears are also irrelevant to Inuit.
This irrelevancy is why Inuit forego scientific methods. If you were to utilize Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit in these matters, then the world will have no choice but to acknowledge this base of knowledge.
The internationally accepted survey methods seem to be the only methodology this government will undertake, but the invasiveness of the helicopters and tranquilizers is the reason why Inuit do not always believe the data.
These methods are counter to Inuit ways of wildlife management.
Due to this reason, I would ask that you defend Inuit and their beliefs strongly.
Can you commit to utilizing more Inuit, including elders and not just the wildlife organizations?
Our government is committed to resolving this issue and further, in the coming months, we will be meeting with the elders’ committee once the elections have been held and the Executive Council is appointed.
The Department of Environment will work with this committee and there will be an advisory body that will deal with these issues.
In my opinion, the elders will contribute greatly to our department when we are discussing wildlife matters.
As well, the advisory committee, which ought to have a different name since the connotation suggests that it’s only a committee, will be a body comprised entirely of respected elders.
I believe that they will make a big difference to our government as we would like to incorporate more Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit into our government practices in the future.
Please be aware that Question Period is now over. (interpretation ends) Item 7.
Bill 42 and Tabled Document 216 – 2(4) with Mr. Kattuk in the Chair.
Before we proceed with the Committee of the Whole, we will break for lunch and I ask members to return at 12:45.
>>House recessed at 11:39 and Committee resumed at 12:59
In Committee of the Whole, we have the following items to deal with: Tabled Document 216 – 2(4) and Bill 42.
The wish is to continue the review of Tabled Document 216 – 2(4) and if time permits today, onto Bill 42.
Are we in agreement that we first deal with Tabled Document 216 – 2(4)?
Chairman: Thank you. Minister Brown, do you have witnesses that you would like to bring to the table?
Minister, please introduce your witnesses. Minister Brown.
On my left is my Deputy Minister, David Akeeagok, of CGS, and on my right is the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, Alex Campbell.
Are there any questions on the Tabled Document 216 – 2(4)?
I want to thank the minister and her officials, including Mr. Akeeagok and Mr. Campbell.
Yesterday, during my questions, I indicated to the committee that this committee of the Assembly, during the winter session, advised the minister and that it was the best we could do as we don’t have an influence as to how the policies of the government are developed.
We did consider that the medical travel contract was a very important government instrument to have an impact on the air transportation policy.
In view of that, I cautioned the government at that time that the minister, including I believe the officials or whoever was considering in shaping up this contract, it is, in my opinion, one of the most important policy initiatives that could have negative or positive impacts and in many respects, could have a tremendous impact, even negatively, on the economy as a whole. So I believe that’s what happened.
The official, Mr. McCullock, indicated to me that they did not specifically talk about economic development when they were evaluating the process and the criteria that were provided to these sets of contracts.
But I cautioned them long before the criteria was developed that they should take into account the potential impact on the economy as a whole because, in view of the lack of policy in air transportation by this government, the medical contract is, in a sense and in my opinion, what drives the economic air transportation policy.
So Mr. McCullock indicated to me that things were going so great after they awarded the contract that one airline expanded staff, expanded services, and so on, and things were going great.
Could the minister indicate to us exactly which region is benefiting from that contract and expanding staff and services? I haven’t seen it in my region.
It’s quite premature to evaluate the success of the medical contract because it’s only been four months.
If Mr. McCullock has stated those, I think I can believe him very well because, in fact, one of the airlines had announced their added routes in an earlier part of the contracts. So we know of that for sure because of the announcement that was made.
Mr. Chairman, I was really seeking clarification because I quote Mr. McCullock saying exactly this, “... as a result of the competition, has expanded and hired more Inuit people, employed more staff, and are spending more money in Nunavut.
I think that everybody has felt that.” What I’m saying is, Mr. Chairman, I haven’t felt that in the Kivalliq, so I wanted to know exactly where that good news story is actually happening.
My Deputy Minister, Mr. Akeeagok, will respond to that, please.
Mr. Akeeagok (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) The airline increases that we have seen have been throughout the territory.
Some of the communities that have benefited are Cambridge Bay, Igloolik, and Iqaluit that will see three more flights a week. The connection between Iqaluit and Rankin Inlet are now five days a week.
There are increases in flight frequencies in Igloolik, Nanisivik, Pangnirtung, and Pond Inlet. There is also new scheduled service, which is three times a week, between Winnipeg and Sanikiluaq. Also, new services are out of Baker Lake and Arviat that have started as a result of these components to this medical travel.
I appreciate that information, Mr. Chairman.
During our discussion yesterday on the free market aspect of the medical contract, I want to make it clear that when I talk about free market, I normally mean non-government intervention because the airline services in Nunavut cannot compete with government.
What I mean by that, Mr. Chairman, is that once the government issues a contract to one or two airlines, other players are out of the loop, out of the game, and therefore, they cannot compete with the government.
I want to ask the minister: in view of the fact that the government has announced some good news impact of the medical service contracts for some of the regions and some airlines, has the minister actually seen the other side of the coin and have seen any negative impacts on the airlines that were actually competing with the routes and being part of the service that were providing medical transportation to and from Nunavut to other points in other provinces in all of the regions?
My Deputy Minister, Mr. Akeeagok, will answer the question.
Mr. Akeeagok (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) As a result of this contract from the previous contracts that we had, we have seen increases in air schedules throughout.
There is one airline that, for their business purposes, has indicated that they will not be flying a certain route.
I don’t think it is as a result of this RFP because there was no contract in place for that particular airline for that route. I’m speaking just on this RFP and on what transpired on this.
So what we have seen is increased services to areas where we have contracted and the new contracts that we have.
To add to his supplementary, there were four bids from four different organizations and all have received parts of the contract as a result of this Request for Proposal.
Yes, I appreciate that information. I think, in view of the information provided by the ministers as well, they have not had an opportunity to evaluate that.
Before I address that issue, I want a response to some of the points made.
I want to ask the minister or her officials: was that particular airline that the deputy minister just referred to experiencing impact?
Did that particular airline involve in carrying passengers prior to the awarding of the contract, prior to April 1, 2008?
Hon. Levinia Brown (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will have Mr. Campbell respond to the question.
Mr. Campbell (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) The answer is yes, the airline in question did provide services for some of our medical travel clients flying to Winnipeg from Rankin Inlet.
I appreciate the response when the deputy minister says that yes, responds “yes” to my question, they did provide for passengers and medical patients from Rankin Inlet.
That does not mean that the patients were just from the Rankin Inlet location alone, they were probably from other communities as well, brought in by other airlines and continuing on to Winnipeg.
Would I be correct in assuming that?
Hon. Levinia Brown: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, the member is correct.
Mr. Chairman, I have another question. The government indicated that they have not had an opportunity to respond, at least had not had an opportunity to evaluate the contract. But it was indicated earlier that there were some good news stuff going on that they even expanded and hired during the last four months.
Could the minister indicate to this committee as to exactly when the evaluation of this report will be carried out, both positive and negative, considering also the routes and the cancellation of any passenger services as a result of the contract and whether that evaluation, once done, will be carried out either internally or externally?
And if so, would that report be tabled in this legislature or next legislature?
I will direct that to be responded by Mr. Campbell.
Mr. Campbell (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) First of all, the contract that was awarded is a three-year contract.
It is the plan of the department to do annual evaluations of the contract to see how the contract is working.
We would likely do the first evaluation for this current year some time in April and May of next year.
As soon as we complete that evaluation, yes, the department will provide that information to the members at that time.
In addition to that, the department will be doing regular monthly monitoring of the contracts for all the airlines. We will also be having regular meetings with the airlines, starting with the first meeting next week with one of the airlines, and then we will be having follow-up meetings with the airlines as well.
As I indicated yesterday, we haven’t fully implemented a system of monitoring and following up on some of these issues with the airlines, but we will be finalizing the system at the end of this month, September, and then we will be monitoring the contracts on a monthly basis by the department.
I want to follow up a bit on the information that is important to this committee.
It was indicated that all airlines, particularly in the Kivalliq region, were participating prior to April 1, 2008 in carrying passengers to and from the Kivalliq region to Manitoba points, Churchill and Winnipeg.
Can the minister indicate to the House, in view of the fact that I’m sure there is information available, what percentage, if it is established, were historical information provided during those years? Even one year, during the last year, 2006-07, to Kivalliq Air, Calm Air, and First Air in the Kivalliq, are these figures available?
I will have Mr. Campbell also respond to the question.
Mr. Campbell (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) The historical information that I do have dates back to 2001-02.
We did have airline tickets that were issued for about 25,000 patients travelling in and out of Nunavut in the fiscal year 2001-02.
In the current year, the fiscal year ending 2007-08, we had about 31,000 to 33,000 patients travelling in and out of the territory.
As I committed to doing yesterday, this is one of the pieces of information that the member wanted to know more about yesterday. I will be providing more information on the breakdown of that information.
Mr. Curley: I think it’s a known fact that the medical air travel contracts are very important instruments in the continuation of the modern transportation services within each region.
I think it’s a known fact now that one of the airlines that was participating prior to April 1, 2008 has now filed a request, at least to its directors, that they will no longer be carrying out the route from Winnipeg to Rankin and back.
Does the minister agree with me that this is as a result of this Medical Air Transportation Policy established for the Kivalliq region?
You still have 14 seconds.
Mr. Campbell will answer the question.
Mr. Campbell (interpretation): Thank you, (interpretation ends) Mr. Chairman.
The airline is discontinuing their jet service from Rankin to Winnipeg and it’s strictly a business decision that the airline has undertaken, and I’m not going to speak specifically on that. The contract that we let didn’t facilitate that process as there was no contract there to begin with.
Every decision is a business deal. Whether or not it has a business aspect and whether or not you decide to award a contract as government, it’s a business deal, positive or negative.
In view of the fact that the airline will now discontinue service, does the minister agree that if she had awarded that contract to First Air in the Kivalliq region to carry medical patients to Winnipeg or Manitoba that the airline today would continue the service, yes or no?
Mr. Campbell (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) Thank you for that question.
The bids were evaluated on the airlines that had submitted for that portion of that medical travel contract.
On my list from yesterday, I had Mr. Tootoo.
I welcome the minister and the officials.
Just listening to that last exchange, I will continue on their first. I think the departmental officials indicated that although there was no contract in place, the airline that had suspended service from Rankin Inlet/south was receiving medical travel patients, and that was part of their revenue, and passengers for that route.
Can the government give us an idea or a number of how many patients that was, or how much volume, or dollar-wise was spent with that particular airline in the past when there was no contract in place that shows a breakdown between the different airlines in that region, that were flying from Rankin to Winnipeg prior to the contract being put in place?
I believe the Department of Health and Social Services could answer that because I believe it’s operational and before we took over to do the RFP, so I will ask Mr. Campbell to respond to that.
Mr. Campbell (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) This is again going back to yesterday’s question by the member from Rankin Inlet and this was one of the questions that were also raised by him yesterday.
So I’m hoping that this will address his question and one of the questions by the member that just asked the question.
I can give you the breakdown of the actual schedule medical travel expenses dating back to 2003-04, a regional breakdown as well as the total breakdown.
For the Kitikmeot region, in 2003-04, we spent $3.9 million, in the Kivalliq region, we spent $7.6 million, and in the Baffin region, we spent $6.3 million, for a total of $18 million for 2003-04.
In 2004-05, we spent $4.3 million in the Kitikmeot region, we spent $6.8 million in the Kivalliq region, and we spent $7 million in the Baffin region, for a total of $18.2 million in 2004-05.
In 2005-06, in the Kitikmeot region, we spent $5 million, in the Kivalliq, we spent $7.8 million, and in the Baffin, we spent $8.1 million, for a total of $21 million for scheduled medical travel for 2005-06.
In 2006-07, in the Kitikmeot, we spent $4.8 million, in the Kivalliq, we spent $10.5 million, and in the Baffin, we spent $10.4 million, for a total of $25.8 million for 2006-07.
For 2007-08, these are unaudited numbers, in the Kitikmeot, we spent $4.6 million, in the Kivalliq, we spent $9.8 million, and in the Baffin, we spent $10.3, for a total of $24.7 million.
In the current fiscal year, we’re projecting so far for 2008-09, in the Kitikmeot, we have spent $2.9 million so far, in the Kivalliq, we have spent $5.2 million, and in the Baffin, we have spent $3.2 million, for a total of approximately $11 million so far.
With those current projections, we’re estimating the projected 2008-09 scheduled medical travel expenses to be $24 million, that’s not including any increases in fuel prices that we may entertain through the course of the next six months.
What I’m not able to provide right now is the actual breakdown of how that’s shared among the airlines and again, that’s more detailed information that I may not be able to provide in the current session, but I will certainly try and provide that information.
As I committed, the department will be doing an evaluation report on the scheduled medical contracts in April or May of next year.
I thank Mr. Campbell for that response.
Last year, for example, in 2007-08, he had indicated $9.8 million for the Kivalliq.
Without a contract in place, one would assume that that was split up between the two airlines, even if it was done half, the loss of almost $5 million a year of revenue. I would say that would be a pretty significant factor in the decision for an airline of whether they can still afford to maintain that route or not, even if it was half.
I really find it hard to buy the argument that the awarding of the contract had no effect on the decision the airline made not to suspend service in that region.
It’s clearly a business decision that if they have lost $5 million in revenue, is it worth it for them to keep that route open?
I would say it probably wasn’t, so that’s why they suspended service.
Whether it be directly or indirectly, this decision of awarding the medical travel contract just to one airline out of Rankin Inlet/south did cause the other airline to suspend service.
It’s almost a no-brainer.
“We just lost $5 million worth of revenue, so it’s not worth it for us to fly here anymore.”
I’m going to go back to that. He said if there was no contract in place prior to this contract coming into force, did patients have a choice of airline or how was it handled?
Did the department take turns; all the odd-numbered people that came in have to take one airline and all the even-numbered people have to take the other airline?
How was it handled prior to a contract being in place?
Again, Mr. Campbell will respond to that.
Mr. Campbell (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) Again, there are three points there that were mentioned and I will try and answer him briefly.
The bids that we did receive for the proposals that we did receive were all evaluated. If an airline did not put in a proposal for that portion of that segment of that medical travel contract, they were not evaluated.
That’s the question I answered earlier.
We cannot, as a department or as a government, facilitate the process when it’s a public tender and when one airline did not submit that portion.
On the second point, I believe there are three airlines that were involved prior to the contract being in place in the Kivalliq region.
With regards to the travel and how it was handled before, it was based on, again, this is more anecdotal information from my part, but I’m sure this is the way it was handled, what airlines were available to provide that service for the department at the time.
Thank you, Mr. Campbell, for that response.
When the Request for Proposal was put out, was the time factor of getting a patient from let’s say Rankin Inlet to Winnipeg or Ottawa, or Iqaluit to Ottawa, or from any community to the health care that they needed, was that something that was taken into account?
I heard yesterday that sometimes it’s six hours with a few stops in between versus I think it’s two hours in a jet from Rankin Inlet to Winnipeg, something like that. It’s been a while since I have travelled that way.
Was that type of thing taken into account in evaluating or looking at the proposals?
Mr. Akeeagok will respond to that question.
Mr. Akeeagok (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) The short answer is yes.
In the evaluation criteria, the customer service, which was rated at second, weighted at 30 percent, that took into account the number of stops, the time the individual would have to travel, and how early or how late they would go in order to get into the community or the city that they would be seen. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I’m glad to hear that that was taken into account, but out of that 30 percent then, what would be the difference or what was the weight on just that, on an hour and a half to two hours with no stops versus six hours with one, two, or three stops?
I’m just wondering if something like that is specifically looked at and weighted specifically.
Again, I will ask Mr. Akeeagok to respond to the question.
I’m sorry I said Mister.
Under Customer Services, the weight was 30 percent.
Within Customer Services, the bidders should have demonstrated, but not limited to, for the reservations, ticket counter, in-flight operations, scheduling, financial services, general airline operations and all passenger services. I’m referring to the RFP under 3.3.2.
In terms of breaking it down to further details on each of the weights within that 30 percent, and my officials could correct me otherwise, if need be, I believe we could table further information.
I don’t think there was any particular weight breakdown in terms of that 30 percent, but those were all weighed within that 30 percent. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Just looking at that section on the RFP on Customer Services, there doesn’t seem to be anything that gives any weight to time and number of stops in there as indicated earlier.
So I’m just wondering if that was something that was actually weighted where specifically it was weighted.
Mr. Akeeagok will also respond to the question.
Mr. Akeeagok (interpretation): Thank you. (interpretation ends) Within that scheduling, they are under 3.3.4.1 on page... there’s no specific page on that.