EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
They know exactly what the rules are and they know what the management agreement contains. Is it because you don’t believe that they’re doing it properly that they have to give you the information first?
For further clarity, I will refer it to Ms. Kimball. (interpretation ends) Thank you.
With so many families on our waitlist, it’s very important we maintain credibility of the process to ensure that it’s perceived as open, transparent, and fair.
It’s important that someone have oversight if there are board members out there that may try to advance a member of their family, for instance. I’m not saying that’s all the time, but there have been situations.
We found it improved the credibility of the program to ensure that there is an audit process and that we are making sure that the allocations are following the cabinet-approved program.
So do I understand that even if the local housing organization wants to allot a house to a tenant, then the housing corporation has the right to refuse that allocation according to the agreement?
The local housing organizations have policies regarding the allocation of housing units, who needs housing, and the maintenance of the waiting list. There are certain rules that you have to abide by at the housing organization level.
Depending on the size of the waiting list, they can decide who will be getting a house because they know the situation in their community and they know who the people are on the waiting list, how large the family is, and who is living in overcrowded housing. They have employees at the housing association or within the authority who deal with that.
They have that capability and they are aware of who needs housing and all of that.
That’s the information that I was trying to get.
You stated that they can allocate housing, but before you give the tenant the key, the information has to be given to the housing corporation.
Does that mean you can deny or refuse their decision to allocate a unit to a tenant?
Why do you request the information before the keys are handed over? Is it because you don’t believe them?
As Ms. Kimball indicated earlier, though maybe you didn’t understand her, it’s not because we don’t believe the housing association.
On very few occasions, there have been houses allocated either to a relative or favouritism was shown.
This eliminates that possibility when all the procedures are followed when it comes to allocating units to new tenants.
If I may, Mr. Enook, I can give an example of what you’re getting at. We have board members in my community of Gjoa Haven that allocate units to people that really need it, but then the regional office says no.
The LHO board members in Gjoa Haven say, “Why are they a board when we allocate it, but nothing happens?”
Back to you, Mr. Enook.
Mr. Enook: Exactly, Mr. Chairman, and that’s what I’m getting at. (interpretation) That’s what I don’t understand. It’s different.
If you’re concerned about board members allocating houses to their relatives and you say that you have to get the information before the key is handed, then where do you get the information that a board member is allocating a house to their relative?
How would you find that information out in Pond Inlet, for example?
Hon. George Kuksuk (interpretation): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I also thank the member for that good question. If you don’t mind, I would like Ms. Kimball to give a clear response.
Our district office receives contact directly from members of the community that may be on the waitlist that have concerns with why they are not getting the allocation when they believe that they should be. If those concerns are raised to our district, then they do investigate those concerns.
If NHC isn’t there to provide that role of oversight and there isn’t any oversight, what’s to prevent the other situation where you can have board members allocating to people that they have contact with within the community? We have seen examples of those. It’s a Catch-22.
We have to be able to have an audit function.
However, if you’re seeing that in your community, we do want to empower the boards. If you’re seeing situations where the district is challenging a decision and the board has provided rationale and documentation for a special consideration, and you don’t believe the district office is making an appropriate call, I would encourage the members and the board members of the community to escalate it.
We have a headquarters office and we have my office in the directorate. We would be more than happy to look at those situations.
We do want to encourage board participation, but we do need to make sure there is an audit and control around that.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but being a Baffin resident, I can say that people say that it’s very difficult to work with your district office.
I have been told that as a Member of the Assembly, but I don’t want to go there.
I have other questions.
I would like clarification. If there is a disagreement between the local housing organization board and the Nunavut Housing Corporation staff, as you stated, you work with them to come up with an agreement. I like that.
Is it only to your satisfaction and, if you’re not satisfied with it, the board might be dissolved?
Now, if I understood the question properly, the local housing board is subject to the (interpretation ends) management agreement (interpretation) and this is something we can deal with. (interpretation ends) The agreement (interpretation) means that the LHO has arrived at an agreement with NHC on the management areas that they will be responsible for, such as the public units or future units planned for construction, including their design. This agreement includes various matters.
With respect to your question, if our organization does not agree with the agreement, I’m not exactly sure, but you asked if this could be agreed to.
No, that is not the way it is set up.
If we were to review the matter, there are provisions within the agreement that speak to improper implementation or lack of fulfillment on matters that were agreed to as this agreement is between NHC and the LHO in the community.
If the agreement was no longer followed, then that would mean that NHC would have to become involved with the LHO to review the problems they face and, if we are required to undertake work, then it would follow the outlined process in the agreement and this would apply to several of the areas.
Perhaps he understood that.
I don’t think I will come to an understanding, so I will move on.
I’ll ask a question concerning staff. The minister stated earlier that when they were talking about the managers, you’re involved if they ask for your help, for instance, when they’re trying to hire a manager or if you are concerned about a potential employee.
I would just like clarification that you want to hire qualified people.
Does that decision have to go through the housing corporation? If the housing board is independent in hiring, they don’t have that authority and you have to get involved or can they hire their staff without your involvement?
Hon. George Kuksuk: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) So that we can have the same understanding with my colleague, we have a different dialect as you’re from the Baffin and I’m from the Kivalliq and you don’t understand some of comments properly, so I’ll speak English to you.
If I understood your question properly, (interpretation ends) LHO board of directors have the discretion and authority to hire new LHO managers. Other staff may be hired by the LHO manager and confirmed by the LHO board.
NHC district offices often provide support for LHOs in the hiring process for new managers, but the ultimate decision is in the hands of the board of directors. (interpretation) Maybe he understood that.
I understand that, but a lot of my constituents don’t really understand that because they don’t speak English.
I want them to understand properly, so I’ll keep speaking in Inuktitut even though we have different dialects because I want my constituency’s unilingual Inuit residents to understand.
You stated that they can make their decisions and they can vote any way they want, even without the housing corporation involved.
You said that you want properly qualified people.
I’m thinking that they can hire a person only with your approval because you want qualified people.
Hon. George Kuksuk (interpretation): I will respond in Inuktitut as I wish to be very clear in my response in order for my colleague to comprehend, if he can understand my dialect. Some people will also prefer to hear the response in Inuktitut.
Mr. Chairman, I will try to clarify this matter to the best of my ability.
We work closely with the LHOs on housing issues throughout all of Nunavut with the 25 communities that have local housing authorities.
As NHC, we provide the operational funding and we also have an (interpretation ends) agreement (interpretation) with the communities so that they can manage the local housing issues that NHC creates by construction of new social housing, as they are quite involved in this process.
With that reasoning in mind, the LHOs are our agents that have to properly manage the accounts and have financial accounting in the (interpretation ends) association or authority (interpretation) available to ensure that (interpretation ends) management (interpretation) is properly managing the local LHO (interpretation ends) board of directors (interpretation) who hires the managers or selects the person who will be acting as the authority. This is to ensure that the organization is being operated in a fiscally responsible manner as they are our (interpretation ends) agent as the local association (interpretation) as mandated through an agreement signed by both parties.
Due to these reasons, we have outlined the various roles of each party to ensure there’s (interpretation ends) management (interpretation) so that the organization can (interpretation ends) hire the manager (interpretation) themselves, but we expect them to hire a fully qualified person to manage the local housing mandate, as well as managing the funds and they need qualified employees.
There are many responsibilities.
That is the reason we want to be kept up to date to ensure they are operating properly.
This will be my last question. My time is running out.
If you want to give me more time, it is entirely up to you.
The issues we are debating here between the minister and I and his staff, if I can return to your last comment, Mr. Minister, it is something that jumped out at me when you stated that they are our representatives, or in English, (interpretation ends) agents, (interpretation) through this agreement. This is the reason why I am asking my questions because it seems as if every requirement was alluded to, if there are problems, if they wish to assign housing, or if they want to initiate something for unusual or special reasons, all of these actions have to course through your corporation.
As per your statement that they are your agents by virtue of this agreement and perhaps due to that, I hope this is a completely wrong understanding, but I seem to understand that due to this agreement, from the start of the day to sunset, only the approved operational items can be completed.
This is how I understand it.
As an example, when the LHO wants to assign a unit, they first have to approach the corporation for approval prior to handing over the keys. If they wish to assign a unit for special or unusual circumstances, they still have to get approval from your organization and the flimsy reasoning is nepotism may occur and is the reason for this review.
I doubt this occurs on the scale you imagine because there are numerous board members representing the community who aren’t all related to clients.
For all of these issues, in looking at the overall picture, the LHOs don’t really have any authority or at least that is the impression I get. This is also what the LHO members’ state is the case.
It seems that once an error is committed or if they are operating in a manner you disagree with or if they make a decision your corporation doesn’t like, you are using that threat as a weapon, “You are making erroneous decisions and may soon be dissolved,” as that is your authority.
It was stated that you have this authority.
I am sorry to say it, but that is exactly how I understand it, although I know you and your officials will deny that and that’s obvious because this is your position.
Nonetheless, I wonder if you shouldn’t be beginning further discussions with the LHO boards in the various communities since they think they have the authority, but in reading the language, they have none.
The boards’ perception is that they have the authority, but in reality, every decision they want to make has to be approved by the Nunavut Housing Corporation.
That is the way I seem to understand the language, but I sincerely hope I have the wrong impression or understanding.
Furthermore, Hon. Minister, I have expectations and we are thankful in Pond Inlet, if all the logistics line up, that more housing units will be coming in for the upcoming year.
I also finally seem to grasp the issue you were speaking about, even though you spoke at length, but I didn’t completely understand the words.
Mr. Chairman, this issue we are speaking about that was agreed to, this (interpretation ends) management agreement (interpretation) between the parties, is being reviewed further. We will review the provisions with the local housing organizations and consult them on the agreement.
After we have (interpretation ends) consulted (interpretation) the LHOs, we will review the agreements where changes are required or amendments needed.
It is obvious that these agreements require amendments and none of the contents are 100 percent perfect and we clearly need improvement in the management agreement. With that reason in mind, we expect that in the 2016-17 fiscal year, our expectation is to have a new (interpretation ends) agreement (interpretation) for the responsibilities of the (interpretation ends) association (interpretation) and to work with them as NHC.
From that point forward, with the initial work commenced locally by the LHO, it will include the (interpretation ends) district headquarters (interpretation) personnel to review the agreement from the bottom up. This is part of our plans and this is what I expect to happen related to problems associated with miscommunication or other means. I expect that in the 2016-17 fiscal year, the agreements will be improved and amended.
I also wish to welcome the witnesses in front of us.
When we wish to understand an issue, we ask questions to try to understand.
These matters we are reviewing under 5, questions yesterday were directed on the matter and further questions were raised, which led to my confusion and lack of understanding of this issue.
Again, in using a point rating system, tenants are awarded units based on their needs and I have seen this used in the past.
Although that is the case, it is still problematic to use this process.
I doubt it is being used currently, but based on my experience, if the larger families were, indeed, following a point system, they would be housed earlier.
In my opinion, the smaller families who are less needy, at least in our community, sometimes get housing ahead of the needier families.
The LHO board is elected from the community.
With that being the case, I believe this obviously needs to be improved.
It requires further improvements so that the larger families can be accommodated, especially families with smaller children who are of school age.
With the situation today and based on what you hear, I wonder if you will enact a policy to ensure families that have a higher need are allocated units. I wonder if your organization can create a policy to that effect.
Hon. George Kuksuk (interpretation): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I also thank my colleague for his question and I understood his point quite clearly.
Mr. Chairman, this is an area that the LHOs are responsible for and there is a policy in place that I alluded to earlier.
It speaks to the housing allocation and sets out the requirement to allocate units to the neediest families based on the number of tenants requiring the unit and in looking at their housing situation.
This is something local associations can manage based on their need to be allocated a unit. This is why the (interpretation ends) point rating system (interpretation) is used. In following that system, it rates applicants based on the number of dependants and the need for the housing unit.
In some ways, I believe the member is asking about or speaking to the families allocated units that are not as needy in his opinion and that they are allocated units ahead of needier families.
I understand his comments and that there are different ways to implement it in different communities. However, the reasoning for the allocation may come from other parties why that family is to be prioritized and perhaps it can be from the nurses or social workers and they submit letters in support of the family to the housing association. This practice has been used in the past, as some families are supported for unit allocation by other agencies.
With respect to the rating system, although a family may be listed as the priority in the waiting list, the only way to get a higher point rating is to have reasons listed in a letter from a pertinent agency, either from the nurse or social worker with the letter sent to the LHO. There are various ways to get support and part of this reason for missing the mark for the higher priority cases.
It is only with reasons that certain families tend to get higher points. That is what I understand about this process.
I would ask the members to stay seated so that we can have quorum.
Mr. Shooyook (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also thank the minister. I raised this question due to the fact we are being viewed by the public via the televised proceedings, so this is for the benefit of members of the public who may be confused about this matter so that they may understand the background.
This question I want to direct to you is about something I wish to clearly understand. Actually, responses were provided to questions that the LHOs have the authority and the reason for my confusion is what I will now voice.
In our community, the LHO has stated that although they try to fulfill their mandate by dealing with allocated units, their requests to NHC for assistance tend to be denied.
I am unsure if the representatives are being truthful, but that is what I hear from our local representatives about the barriers they face as an LHO.
They keep reiterating that they would like more authority on these issues.
I wonder why this is the case, with NHC stating that the LHOs have authority to undertake their roles, but the board members keep stating that they have no power or authority.
This is what is causing the confusion on my part.
Perhaps you can clearly explain what the situation is so that I can very clearly understand the issue here.
Hon. George Kuksuk (interpretation): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I also thank the member for his question as it was quite clear and understandable.
I personally have no knowledge of any concerns stemming from Arctic Bay about this matter or if that is, indeed, the case for the community where their authority was usurped.
With respect to the LHO and the community, I have no historical background or information about this matter. However, if our president knows about this issue or if she is aware of the concern and if it was dealt with the Arctic Bay LHO regarding the subject of your question, I would ask that she be allowed to respond, if the Chairman is okay by it.
This summer, we met with the LHO board members in Arctic Bay. They had some questions and we were able to answer their questions. I’m not aware of any specific issues in terms of them feeling that they should have authority to make a decision that they don’t have.
If they’re expressing to you those concerns and they’re not happy with the response they’re getting from the district, we’re more than happy to have a phone call. I can participate with an LHO board conference call. I have been doing that with a number of other boards.
If there are new issues since we visited, I’m more than happy to discuss that with them.
This question I wish to raise revolves around applicants for housing units. If an individual has resided in a community for most of their life and has never privately owned a home and if they are a long-time resident of the community, how could this individual have barriers placed in front of them disallowing them from qualifying for a unit? It could be anyone.
If you could understand me, are there any barriers or disqualifications that any individual may accrue? Are there any barriers that the LHO uses to disqualify possible tenants or are there any valid reasons that the LHO can use to not rent a unit to an individual?
Hopefully I was clear in my question. I’ll start off with this question first.
If I understood the member, he was asking what can disqualify an applicant from a community from moving into a social housing unit even if they need a unit.
One of the issues that would be at the forefront reviewed by the LHO in the community would be the residency requirement listed within their local by-laws.
These residency requirements vary from community to community and it could be several months before a person can be eligible to be placed on the waiting list. Some LHOs have a one-year residency requirement and that is how long a person has to have resided in the community prior to being placed on the waiting list.
There are different requirements that can be the reason for the denying the application, that is, if I understood the member’s question.
He asked if anything can be used as a reason, so I only referred to the residency requirement needed prior to anyone being moved to the (interpretation ends) waiting list. (interpretation) Alternatively, if the person has arrears in another community or to another LHO, then these types of reasons are included. I have only listed some of the possible reasons that can be used.
I’ll clarify my question. If a person who was born in a community has always lived there and has no arrears, I’m asking about what barriers he or she would have to renting a housing unit from the housing authority.
If that person has no arrears and has lived in the same community their whole life, what are his or her barriers to renting a house? What reasons can there be for denying them a house?
I would like to use an example as to what would prevent someone from being approved.
I’ll speak in English and read part of our policy here.
(interpretation ends) Examples of why an applicant may be considered unacceptable (interpretation) are (interpretation ends) history of arrears or poor credit rating, history of poor upkeep or damage to a unit, past conviction of criminal or illegal activities on LHO premises, (interpretation) and (interpretation ends) when an applicant is considered unacceptable by the LHO board of directors, a motion must be passed. (interpretation) It has to go through a motion to deny that person.
The local housing organization would pass that motion.
Yes, I understand that and I thank you for helping me understand that.
If a couple is interested in applying to rent a house and their income is kind of high, they’re both working and they don’t have any bills, then they would not be denied a housing association unit if they made too much money.
You may not understand my dialect, so I would like to explain it in English about income requirements. (interpretation ends) [Regarding] verification of income, the household income must fall below the community’s specific core need income threshold as set by CMHC. (interpretation) I hope that was understood.
Are they handled differently in the communities?
If they were handled differently in the communities, from what I understand now, if their income is too much, they are not allowed to apply for a house.
What is the difference and why do communities have different rules?
Mr. Chairman, I would like Ms. Kimball to explain the income verification and maximum allowable income to rent a house.