EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
For them to take training for jobs and the question that I have is that if they could have more Income Support recipients receive more training to get into the workforce, that is probably the reason why there is over 2 million dollars allotted for that.
I am not talking about a City like Iqaluit. I am talking about the smaller communities that don’t have employment and no place for employment.
What objectives are they attempting to reach?
I have not seen anything in here that deals with Income Support recipients getting more training or to do carvings or for them to go hunting or other traditional activities.
I know that the Inuit can survive by using traditional knowledge and values like hunting, carving, caribou hunting and fishing, although it still costs some money.
If they are encouraging the Income Support recipients they should be encouraging them to go out hunting rather just staying at home to receive income support.
There are some real hunters out there who are providing the community with fresh country foods.
If you no longer have any hunters with traditional skills providing this food, the government would have to spend many more millions supplying chicken and steaks to the Inuit.
They’re talking about wage and land based wage opportunities.
I see this as a very miniscule part of the pie.
I say this because we cannot just say that they have 2 million and that’s that.
I just want to encourage the department to do more to train and make sure the Income Support recipients can do more hunting for the community.
If we look at Iqaluit, it does not cost a lot here, but if we look at Grise Fiord then there could be a lot of money spent to replace the food from the land.
Each community has slightly different costs in the cost of living.
And how often or what percent is it increased by, is it yearly or every three years or what.
What process is followed in determining the increases in the levels for income support?
Hon. Peter Kilabuk (interpretation): Yes I’m sorry, but I should say thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Perhaps my official did not quite understand what the member asked.
So, if the member could ask the question again.
It was just a comment but she had a question at the end of her sentence so I’ll let her ask it again.
If we look at Iqaluit and Grise Fjord and the basic needs of the individuals that are allowable, let’s say for example an Iqaluit person gets 200 dollars for food; the Grise Fjord scale is different.
I think that’s the case.
Every community is probably a little different based on the prices of food or clothing, the cost of living in that community.
My question is, based on that, how often do you increase the social assistance budget; is it twice a year, every six months according to the cost of living in the communities?
Hon. Peter Kilabuk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This has been a concern for many people.
We have heard it in this House and from the communities.
So what we did was, hearing those things, Executive and Intergovernmental Affairs headed a study on the price of food in the communities.
The income support money has not increased so what we have to do is get back to that study and see what things have to be increased like what does the food or clothing cost in different communities.
So, my understanding of that is they will increase once the household survey is done, is completed.
My experience, having done this program for 14 years in the past, it used to increase every year to two years according to the cost of living.
So I’m just trying to understand how it’s being done today.
It seems like every time we do this survey, this is when it will happen, every five years, every fifteen years.
Do we know?
Since 1998, we’ve been using the same system and it has not changed.
There have never been any changes made since 1998.
We are waiting for the survey on the price of food.
After seeing the results, I’ll be able to identify if there’s going to be an increase or changes made according to the survey.
At this time I have no more names on my list for questions.
We’re on page 9-10.
Total operations and maintenance, 2 million 186 thousand dollars.
Chairperson (interpretation): Going on to page 9-16, yes there were quite a few questions in regards to that, so I want the members to ask their questions while the official responsible for income support is here.
Once we are done with 9-16, we’ll go onto page 9-11 if that’s okay with the members.
Now go on to 9-16.
Employment and Career Services.
We’re on that page now.
Ms. Williams: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) I would like to ask my question about the support officers in three offices; Pangnirtung, Rankin Inlet, Cambridge Bay.
How many positions do you have or how many staff do you have in those three divisions?
Well let us look at the information Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, the figures we have, I can only respond to you after we make changes to the figures here in the three communities where we have our offices.
So therefore I can’t give the detailed information until I have made some changes.
Ms. Williams would you like continue.
On the same page, 9-16, Financial Assistance for Nunavut Students.
This is financial assistance we’re talking about for the people that are at the college?
This is Financial Assistance for Students.
This is the increase.
No matter what community they’re in as long as they’re in College.
That’s the increase for financial assistance for the students.
Ms. Williams: Just a question.
How does that relate to or differ from 9-11.
Hon. Peter Kilabuk (interpretation): Mr. Chairman, I apologize to the House.
That shouldn’t even be in there.
It should have been deleted from page 9-16.
The Financial Assistance for Nunavut Students description part should not even be there.
We’ll have to make that correction in our Main Estimates.
We might make information available by mistake so we’ll have to amend that and change that.
Ms. Williams, would you like to continue.
Alright, thank you. Mr. McLean.
Under Adult Education and Post Secondary Services, Student Financial Assistance…I’m sorry Mr. Chairman I’ll ask the question later.
I guess the department did not set up the Main Estimates properly so I apologize because it seems like their branch summary is all over the place and we have to go back and forth with the pages so therefore the next time we do the Main Estimates they should be properly done in order.
You have these offices responsible for the delivery of Income Support, Early Childhood, Apprenticeship, Trades and Occupations and so on.
I am not sure where it is either, but if it is not here we are looking at page 9-11.
If I am off topic cut me off and I will address it on another page.
What I want to see is on the, I have addressed and made several statements on the mining industry where we need some training where we want to put apprentice and trades and occupations into the community so the young people can take on opportunities.
The opportunities are there to work with the mining companies and these people are on social assistance because they are not trained or skilled workers.
We can have so many janitors only in the workplace but we need skilled workers and apprentices.
So as you know, and this House knows, I have stated before that the community did a partnership project where we have mining companies involved, the Arctic College and the community did some fundraising and did the training.
A mining company could go to a community and assist the community to do the training so that they could work in a mining company to get them off income support.
Is this where we can say the funding is available to do those kinds of partnership projects.
I am not sure what to call it.
Programs.
Or maybe it is on 9-11.
I want to make sure that I am on the right page to address that.
Hon. Peter Kilabuk: I guess to answer his question as to which page this should be best addressed, I think that would be, I think the member stated 9-11, when we go into the focus areas of Arctic College.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you. I have no more names on my list.
For page 9-16.
It was part of 9-10.
Just so that I have an understanding, Financial Assistance for Nunavut students is not supposed to be in 9-6 right?
It is going to come out of there 9-6.
Also apprenticeship, trades and occupations maybe should not be there because it is also in 9-11.
Does that mean the amount of 33 million 642 thousand dollars will change in 9-16.
If the task that is written up here should not be here, then the amount should be different.
Maybe I could get some clarification on how that is going to be handled.
Hon. Peter Kilabuk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9-16 as I stated before financial assistance for Nunavut students should not even be there.
It is only the description part that shouldn’t be there.
That was a typo and it was included in there because 9-16 is the support of three offices.
For page 9-16 and also for the mission, it states in the mission statement a description of 9-11, so that’s the only typo we have so, we had extra sections on page 9-16.
Apprenticeships, trades, occupation and trades education is also on page 9-11, not just financial assistance for students.
That’s my question if they should be in two places or if they should be in one place.
If they should not be on 9-16, the amount should be decreased because the task that needs to be done, the task that is being done in 9-11, should not be in 9-16.
(interpretation) I don’t know if I’m making sense or not.
Chairperson (interpretation): Yes, you’re making sense.
Thank you, Ms. Williams.
Yes, I will clarify why they’re separate.
It’s because one is headquarters and the other one is for operations and maintenance.
Would you like to continue? Ms. Williams.
Ms. Williams: My question is, the amount of the dollars, will that change on those two pages.
I will have Deputy Minister Rich clarify that.
Mr Rich: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I regret this confusion caused by the fact that the one line on financial assistance for Nunavut students was left there.
That’s the only part that was left there that shouldn’t be there.
It’s because the employment and career services offices have no direct role on the FANS program.
That’s done through, as the minister said, headquarters.
However, the employment and career services offices do deal with apprenticeship, trades and occupations.
They’re involved in programs such as the Labour Market Development Agreement Program where we provide training opportunities.
They’re involved in literacy and career development opportunities through the career services people.
So, that is correct there and none of this, the deletion of financial assistance for Nunavut students has no impact on the financial aspect.
It has no impact on funding, not a transfer of funding.
Just the phrase was mistakenly left in two places.
Would you like to continue? Mr. McLean.
I just want to, the question was asked on income support levels and how it’s administered and how is it determined how much each client gets.
I’ve got some questions for myself here.
I’m sure other people are probably interested in it.
I’ve asked the same question in the House three consecutive years on has the government initiated a cost of living study on what it costs to live in Nunavut and has there been an increase based on the cost of living in Nunavut.
I don’t think there has been one in the last three years unless I missed it.
You said that you’re doing a survey now, or there’s a survey being done.
When do you hope to have this survey in front of the House?
Perhaps first of all, as I mentioned before, there’s a survey being done in regards to the price of food or the cost of living.
Executive and Intergovernmental Affairs is responsible for that survey.
I myself don’t know their completion date is so I cannot tell you when it will be completed.
I don’t want to guess the date but it’s that department that’s responsible for announcing and tabling the results of the survey.
So I am not in a position to respond to that.
Mr. McLean if you are going to be asking about that, yes the Department of Education will have to make some changes to their description but go ahead with your question.
I’ll ask the Minister responsible when the survey is going to get out.
If you are not the minister responsible I’ll ask the Premier on when the results of this survey are.
I know for one that I don’t think Income Support has been increased in any of our communities through no fault of yours.
And I know the prices haven’t stayed the same in any of our communities on basic food items.
I think they go up every year by 2 or 3 percent.
So our income support people who depend on it and I’ve seen the statistics that it affects 50 percent of the people in Nunavut.
I will be asking some questions while we are here, because you have your expert with you.
What does a single adult living in Nunavut get from Income Support per year?
While he is here we would like to take this opportunity so I will ask him to respond.
However, to the first comment, yes it is true that it has been three years where there has been no increase.
We’ve never had an increase for income support since 1998.
If it is okay Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Mackay to respond.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you. Mr. MacKay.
Mr. MacKay: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First the rates across Nunavut as you’ve already discussed are different.
There are some basic food scale rates that an individual may be eligible for. At the moment we have 5 different rates based on the cost of living that was established in 1998 or earlier.
There are also clothing allowances which are an extended benefit.
There are also fuel costs and housing costs which we consider basic benefits and extended benefits can include furniture once a year if the person is eligible.
Emergency assistance if they require it, sometimes for tuition for shorter term programs such as one semester or shorter.
There is an age allowance.
There is disabled allowance.
So for a single person that we are talking about if he had no other income to report, no earned or unearned income, it would be in the neighbourhood if they were living in public housing approximately 350 to 400 dollars.
That would cover their housing and power paid for and their food and if they are a longer term person, or a disabled or aged person where you are not required to do a productive choice, you would be getting an additional 175 on top of that.
I have a note here.
We will have 5 minute break.
Mr. McLean you can come back to this after the 5 minute break.
>>Committee recessed at 6.29 p.m. and resumed at 6.39 p.m.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, back to your question Mr. McLean.
You’re doing a good job today and I want to commend you for putting up with us.
The Social Assistance Program is really complicated and I’ve had numerous people in my office trying to figure out how it works.
I don’t know how it works but when I’m in there I call the Social Assistance lady that issues it out.
She tries to explain it me in a nice simple way.
So the question I’m going to ask is, so get ready to jot them down, it’s one question but it’s got three issues here. I want to know what a single adult living in Nunavut receives for social assistance for food a month, average.
I’m not going to hold to the dollar.  I want to know what a single person with one dependant receives a month for food allowance and what a family of four, like I’m talking two adults and two dependant children receive a month for a food allowance.
And like I say, I know you probably have different rates but I’m just asking for the average monthly amounts that they receive.
For a single person, 275 dollars is average, monthly, for two people, 525 dollars, for one couple with two children, 950 dollars a month.
I’m just asking these questions to get more clarification for myself.
It gives me good question period info. The poverty line is set in every country and Canada and I’m not sure if the poverty, it might be an unfair question so I don’t know if you can answer it.
You probably can’t.
I don’t know who can answer this question.
But what’s the poverty line?
What’s the poverty level in a place like Canada or is there a poverty level in Nunavut for a single person with one dependant and does the minister know what that level is?
Hon. Peter Kilabuk (interpretation): Yes, I can’t respond to this right now.
I’ll get that myself some place.
Like I said I am just compiling some information.
When income support levels are set, is there a national standard that we follow, or is this something that we make up ourselves?
Are we following a strict national standard when we’re setting income support levels for families in Nunavut?
I’ll pass this to my right to answer this question.
Chairperson (interpretation): Mr. MacKay.
Generally the rates and everything else are set in Nunavut itself but they are done by reviewing what goes on elsewhere in Canada to see what kinds of trends there are and things like that.
But it’s trying to build something for Nunavut itself.
That’s a good answer but building on that there’s probably what it takes.
Like there’s the food guide that was just issued out here in Nunavut and a lot of people still live on country food.
That’s a fact of life in Nunavut and probably because it’s there.
It’s abundant, people have healthy choices, and there is you know, I don’t know what community in Nunavut that people still don’t eat a lot of country food and that probably makes up 40 or 50% of their diet which is healthy food.
But, times are changing now where more families are having, there are younger kids and you know the instances of RSV and stuff like that and it seems to be a push for breast feeding by health centres and things like that.
But there is also the high cost of buying Enfalac which seems to be a healthy choice over Carnation milk.
Getting back to my other question here is that a lot of people down south don’t eat as much country food as the people up north.
And like I say it’s a good thing that we’re, you know that people up north do eat a lot of country food.
But based on what a family receives I can easily say the prices up here are probably 50 percent higher than they are in southern Canada.
I think that’s a good guess, a guess more than anything.
We know the high cost of transportation up here contributes to that.
So when you are initiating your review are you going to get the true cost of buying a bag of groceries in Nunavut?
I know everyone around this table goes to the store every day or every second day.
There is an old cliché of sticker shock when you get out of the store with three bags of groceries it is going to cost you a hundred dollars.
But some single adult living in Baker Lake or Chesterfield Inlet or Gjoa Haven or Clyde River that gets 225 dollars a month, that is 30 days and my colleague told me it is 7 dollars and 81 cents a day to feed a single person in Nunavut.
To me that is horrific or down right illegal.
As a territory are we taking care of our constituents by giving them 7 dollars a day to eat.
And a family of four receives I think it was 950 dollars a month.
And you know I am looking at it again.
I am not defending Iqaluit.
I think the cost of living in Iqaluit is higher than it is in other places but they are all about the same.
And I think you can appreciate it, the minister coming from a community like Pangnirtung that 950 dollars even living here how far would that 950 dollars go for food?
I am not saying that what people buy is frivolous.
You know a lot of people still eat a lot of bannock.
Bannock is a staple food here.
And you know but the luxury items like TV dinners and apples and oranges seem to be like sort of a fringe thing.
So when you are doing this food review I am hoping that the consideration is taking place you know, what do we have to give a citizen of Nunavut to eat healthy on a daily basis?
Like I said earlier in many places the traditional economy takes care of that.
But in order for somebody to go out and harvest country food and I am sure you know what the cost is by the time you pay for your outboard, snowmobile and pack up and you have your naphtha, Coleman stove and rifle and your bullets and your permits and this and this and this and this.
It is probably cheaper to go to Northern or the Co-op than buying these supplies.
So when we are doing that I am hoping that is taken into consideration that you know sure you can go out there and shoot country food.
But the cost of going out there and purchasing a snow machine to harvest country food in almost prohibitive in this day and age.
And we are talking about getting people off of income support.
I don’t think people are on income support because they want to be. They don’t want to be on income support.
I hear the odd thing, oh yeah, yeah they want to be.
No one has ever come to my office in the last three years and said Glenn I want to be on income support.
They come to my office and say Glenn I need a job so that I can buy a snow machine or I want to buy my own house and stuff like that.
I think the department is moving in the right direction in regards to having career development officers in town and trying to give them alternate choices.
There are Arctic College programs in my community seem to be picking up and they seem to be keying in on the right subjects.
We can still go a long way. We can still go a long way.
Like my colleague was reiterating, we need mine training in certain communities in Nunavut and if we do get people trained to work in the mining industry they are going to start generating taxes and income in the communities.
That will definitely go into the coffers of the territorial government which will you know help the territory to stand on its own two feet.
I have said that many times in the Assembly that we would like to see our territory stand on our own two feet, because we have the potential to stand on our own two feet like Alberta down the road in 40 or 50 years with the mineral resources.
So I just wanted to throw that out there that the less fortunate out there, and when I say less fortunate, somebody who is receiving 225 dollars a month Peter, come on.
A single person, you know where they are going to end up when they get that cheque, that initial cheque.
They are going over to their parents and if they are on income support or they are pensioners then there is added pressure on them to do this.
So it is just more of a comment than anything else.
Like I said in the House later or next week I will be asking whoever is responsible to look at the less fortunate that have to survive on these menial allowances for food and clothing.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman that’s all I have to say.
We hear what you’re saying Mr. McLean, and our staff are also listening and taking notes.
We’ll consider what you’ve said and factor it into our calculations.
If nobody else has any further comments I’d like to report progress.
I’ll give Mr. Alakannuark an opportunity before we report progress.
I’m sure that it has been taken into consideration because of course the recipients go through a hard time just trying to survive.
They don’t have much to go by.
If a couple was on welfare and I use that as an example, and one of the couples might be from another community and if that individual was asked to go to another community to see his or her parents, the parents would buy the ticket for the welfare recipient.
Then at the end of the day, when it was time to get that income support cheque, the amount of the ticket would be deducted from their monthly allowance, even when the money used to purchase the ticket was from by the parents who live in another community.
This really decreases the amount after the cost is deducted from their incomes for the month.
Is there anything we can do about those types of matters, especially where the recipient is not spending their own funds for the trip?
The member has made more than one statement about welfare recipient’s monthly allowances getting deducted when the parents of that individual have bought a ticket.
That has been an ongoing concern by the member who brought it up today.
With the study that we’re going to be doing, we will take this into consideration.
And I just want to assure the member that it will be a part of the review.