EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
We would expect that some of those recommendations would be put forward for the Department of Health and Social Services to implement over the course of the 2002/2003 year.
Mr. McLean: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good, it seems like your department and his department are working together to look at this.
My fear here is that health care costs are going to escalate.
They are escalating everywhere in Canada at this point and it is eating up more and more and more of all the budgets in the country right now.
Are we to the point yet, I know it is only two and a half years into our mandate, but are we anywhere near the point of knowing what it is going to cost us to run this health care system for the next two or three years. Or are we just going to be looking at more appropriations over the next year or two.
Do we have a base at which we know we can operate and then look at giving ourselves a budgeted figure where we are not coming back in here and saying we need another ten million, another ten million, another ten million and another 20 million year after year after year.
Can we get to the point where we’re going to say well okay we think we’ve got a figure to work with in the future.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Glenn.
Mr. Chairman, believe me that at Finance Ministers’ meetings the Department of Health and health and social program expenditures is easily one of the largest, most discussed topics that we have.
It’s not unique to our jurisdiction.
All jurisdictions across this country are facing this dilemma of the health budgets eating up program dollars for all other departments as it continues to be growing at the pace that it has been growing over the past decade.
And it’s a matter of how far governments want to go in reforming the health care system.
As you know it’s very sensitive, it’s an emotionally charged issue, it’s very political.
Once you start tampering with the existing programs and services.
I mean look at the discussions that take place in this House on a regular basis in our question period, in our committees on our health services and programs.
People don’t like to have reform and reductions, they like more programs and more services.
But with that comes of course is a significantly higher cost for providing those programs and services.
I mean this whole exercise that we’re all aware of, of reviewing our programs and services, the program review that we’re undertaking, the fiscal review of our programs.
I mean it’s all part and parcel of what we’re going to see as our priorities for delivery of programs for our constituents.
And Health and Social Services programs are certainly a big part of that with the impact that they have on our constituents.
So I mean certainly there’s no doubt that you know we all want to provide as much services as possible.
But I think it’s how much we can afford to provide is another question.
So that’s the debate that’s going to be taking place over the course of the next or for the rest of our term I would think, Mr. Chairman, as we try to move to you know to provide the curtail or expand the program that we have including particularly the Health and Social Services programs, Mr. Chairman.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Ng. Glenn.
On that Mr. Finance Minister, we’re all working with the Health Minister.
I’m trying to come to a solution on this and a healthy solution in all our communities that like I said earlier the health costs are increasing every year.
Especially more here in Nunavut and the issue of suicide keeps bringing us back to reality on that issue and it’s sort of a paradox to where we’re going to go with that.
But on that 20 million dollar operational expenditures in health.
How much of that was medical travel.
Mr. Chairman, it might be more appropriate once we get into the detail of the department that I can address that matter from the member otherwise I’m going to end up slipping back and forth between departments and different categories within departments.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Ng. I want the members to know that once we start going page by page there’s quite a few numbers to go through so you can ask your questions at appropriate times.
I’ll wait until we get into the detail of it.
I think that’s pretty well my opening comments on the Supplementary Appropriation and I’ve got more questions to ask once we get into the detail, on the shortfalls of various departments.
Our government system is quite new to us and I would say no wonder we’re going through this.
But last year we had Supplementary Appropriation No. 1 for 2000-2001.
We are now having to deal with a new Supplementary Appropriation Act.
It is almost half of the first Act.
For example, I know that we are in our infancy as a government and when we are at the initial stage of anything, I understand we will make some mistakes.
I know that our government would like to get capable, qualified staff.
I believe the top officials that work at Finance are very good capable workers because financial issues are very important. I believe the staff is very capable staff that is able to work on the figures.
This Supplementary Appropriation Act is required because as the Government of Nunavut we used more money than expected.
Looking at the list here.
I was wondering what is the cost of doing a supplementary appropriation.
The Government of Nunavut has to monitor the expenditures.
My question keeps popping up.
Do we have capable workers.
Like for example, for the Department of Health and Social Services supplementary appropriation.
Looking at our government when they open a new position, they would also like to hire a qualified certified individual.
I believe that the people who monitor the finance expenditures, I know that they are very capable workers.
But looking at the supplementary appropriation I know that they are required and I know we need to approve the Supplementary Appropriation Act.
But looking at it I am not too pleased.
And we have to use the funding for operations and we have to approve them.
We will approve them.
Next year, I wouldn't mind not seeing a huge supplementary appropriation.
Perhaps when we go page by page, I'll ask more questions at that time.
Mr. Chairman, like I said earlier in an ideal situation you present your budget and everything goes according to that plan for the whole course of the year.
But in reality that doesn't work for us.
It doesn't work for any jurisdiction.
All governments across this country bring forth supplementary appropriations after their initial budget because there are priority changes.
There are lapses or excess revenues from one portion that the department might want to use or in another or in between departments.
It depends on what the nature of that is.
But because of the way our system works that all government expenditures have to be approved in the Legislative Assembly.
That is why we come back with the supplementary appropriation.
If you want we could always change that and let the Minister of Finance sign off any changes to the budget.
But I don't think that would be appropriate for the Members of the House.
Because we are all accountable for the money that is spent to provide programs and services for our territory.
That is why this is the process that is used.
I know that you could approve them yourself.
It is true if you approve them as the Minister for Finance alone we would not be happy.
Yes, it is true and it is a fact.
If you as a minister approved them by yourself it would not be appropriate.
We have to review the supplementary appropriations and budgets as regular members.
I know that it is our responsibility and sometimes we overlook some issues that the people who work with these issues know about.
So the question that keeps popping up to me is that I know some of the positions at times are not filled within the fiscal year.
But the question that keeps coming to be is how can we not estimate 20 million dollars.
Is it because we estimated inaccurately.
Is it because we estimated it by mistake.
Mr. Chairman, the member is speaking of the Department of Health and Social Services, that is why we indicated earlier that they did have somewhat of a problem with timely information from three separate entities that were delivering Health and Social Services programs on behalf of all our constituencies.
Since then they have followed guidelines and recorded the information.
The Department of Health itself also has some difficulties in their corporate services division.
That is the part that provides financial planning and policy assistance to their headquarters.
They were one of the last departments to have that section staffed up from what I understand.
That has compounded the problem. It is unfortunate that we are in that situation but we are hoping that this won’t be the case in the future.
They have analyzed and addressed some of the problem areas.
As I have indicated there will be a report coming forward with some recommendations and we are trying to make some adjustments to the base target for the Department of Health and Social Services to ensure that they have adequate funding for delivering services.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Ng. Mr. Irqittuq.
Mr. Irqittuq (interpretation): My last question, when we were first elected we had plans to dissolve the health boards in the three regions and education boards across the three regions.
What we heard when we dissolved these three entities was that we would save money and the savings would be used for education. Today we see that although we may have saved some money, we still see a supplementary appropriation for up to 40 million.
Yes, around that figure.
That is why the question keeps coming up.
If you are going to be speaking please be careful with your documents because it is very difficult on the interpreters' ears.
Mr. Chairman, It was anticipated that the dissolution of the regional boards would attain some savings for the government by some efficiencies in rolling up what was provided by the boards and the departments.
But in the case of Health and Social Services there were some savings that would have been used up in some of the services or the programs that went over budget in their case.
So in fact there might have been a larger supplementary appropriation request for over expenditures.
In other words they have not been adequately funded.
If you have no more comments we can go to Mr. Nutarak.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): With respect to the Finance Minister's comments when he was talking about the 41 million.
Are they saying this is all a supplementary appropriation.
I understood that there was over 600 million that is already used for the year.
This is now my understanding that the 41 million is going to be added on top of the annual amount.
If the supplementary appropriation is approved it is added to the already approved budget amount.
It increases the overall budget for the year.
With respect to the 21 million dollars for Department of Health and Social Services which is also included in this supplementary appropriation.
The funding for next fiscal year, will they be able to add this much more let's say 21 million, in the next fiscal year.
Is that my understanding Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, as I indicated earlier we have assigned some preliminary targets to the departments in order to start the plan for next year's operating and maintenance budget which members will get to review in the next calendar year.
Part of that is recognizing the shortfall in the Department of Health and Social Services.
We have increased their preliminary base by the 20 million 750 thousand dollars at this time.
So that will be reflected certainly in next year's business planning cycle.
But having said that we've also said that there may be changes depending on what happens as the result of the program review exercise that is going to be completed late this year or early next year as well.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): This is not really a question, it is more of a comment.
There was a problem with the sewage lagoon and he was able to help us in Pond Inlet with the sewage lagoon.
So I would like to express my gratitude to the minister.
It relates to the base budget of the Department of Health and Social Services and to fully understand what the minister is saying.
When they are looking at the increase, if you look at how much the department went over last year, and it has gone over more this year.
When they are looking at their base are they looking at what they are projected to be over.
Or are they looking at the 20 million that they are at right now.
Is it expected to be more next year and is that what the base is being set on.
Right now we are based on current year.
Knowing that no other department has had the actual opportunity to defend any of their forced growth at this current time in the preliminary targets, we recognize that the Department of Health and Social Services is an exception to that, given their past track record of the past two and half years.
As I said this is a preliminary target and will be adjusted up or down depending on the outcome of the report on the review and the outcome of Financial Management Board decisions based on the program review exercise.
All Members of the Legislative Assembly will have a chance to participate in this review.
Mr. Chairman, the minister indicated they reviewed and audited the Department of Health and Social Services.
I am wondering why that took so long.
How many times was the Department of Health and Social Services looked at or audited as far as coming up with these numbers.
I understand he said as well they had to wait for the audits from the Health boards.
Will those audits be made available, the Health Board ones, to the House and how many times did the department itself go in and scrutinize I guess and go over and audit what the Department of Health was doing before it came up with this number.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Mr. Chairman certainly if the audits are available and members want to see that that is no problem.
They are audited financial statements.
The Department of Finance actually didn't audit per se the Department of Health and Social Services.
We undertook an extensive review certainly of their operations.
It was the first time actually and it was directed by the Financial Management Board after, as members know, after Minister Picco continued to articulate the issues about the adequacy of the funding levels for the Department of Health and Social Services.
It was thought in the best interests to either substantiate that or.
So that is what it came down to really in trying to address this issue.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Ng. If you would like to, feel welcome please press your button so we will know that you are going to speak.
Mr. Chairman, the Health Minister is showing how articulate he is as far as issues related to his department.
I can't wait to see him later this afternoon.
He is all pumped up.
The process that the minister outlined looking at basing it on this year's actual.
There is a potential for forced growth and everything in the program through the program review process.
If it stays the same for the Department of Health and Social Services we could be looking at a substantial sup for that department again next year.
I would like to find out if we are going to give it to him.
They have articulated that they need this much this year and articulated that they are going to need this much next year.
We are going to give them this year's.
Do we anticipate that we are going to be looking at a substantial amount in the sups again next year with the possibilities from the program review and everything else and the structure and the services run by the department remains consistent.
Yes I am flattering the Minister of Health in his articulation.
Mr. Chairman, in all honestly he has spoken to us all on many occasions about the Department of Health and Social Service's needs.
I think Mr. Tootoo is probably correct in that.
We don't know for sure, like I indicated earlier, right now of how we are going to reform the programs and services that health has or any other department for that matter.
What we would support as an Executive Council or a Legislature when it comes down to it right now, I think it is safe to say that we recognize that there is a shortfall and we don't know the full magnitude of it right now.  And we may, I shouldn’t say never know, I mean but as time progresses as we have more data, more of a track record, a history of expenditures I mean that makes it a lot easier to make decisions once you have that information.
We haven’t had a lot of information having only been operating for two and a half years.
I know one thing that the review of the Health and Social Services expenditures did take into account was historical GNWT spending through the health boards, through the courts.
That is historic as well so that was a component certainly to use as a base in trying to check whether or not current levels were adequate.
So right now it’s a bit premature.
I would expect and I would say to you that if you ask me if there was going to be a supplementary appropriation in the next year and in future years in respect to Health and Social Services I would say yes.
I would almost expect that every year.
Like I said earlier it’s no different than any other jurisdiction.
I think what we will want to try to do though is to make sure that the supplementary appropriation requests are fully legitimate with respect to increases for the programs and services that are outside of the control of the department.
Not just arbitrarily submitted because of the unwillingness to try to efficiently run some of the programs and services that they deliver.
Mr. Chairman, I’m sure I probably won’t be the first one to point this out, anyone might see that it could be a big mistake to base our costs on historical data from the NWT as we all know that those numbers were cut in the last, I think those budgets were severely, severely slashed prior to division.
So that would be a mistake I think to look at those numbers.
Just to switch to something else.
The minister indicated that this amount here was new money being added on top of the existing amounts that were approved in the main estimates.
When I’m reading through some of this stuff he talks about monies that are being internally transferred from one area to another.
Then what proportion, as much as the minister is aware, what proportion of funds are being transferred from one division to another out of the whole thing.
Can they provide us with the information as to where it’s being transferred to exactly and where it’s being transferred from.
Mr. Chairman, we can get into the neighbourhood of about three to three and a half million dollars of internal transfers within the supplementary.
Mr. Chairman, I know we probably won’t get there today but I’d like to ask the minister next week if he could provide us with detail as to where those funds have been transferred from within the existing budgets by the departments.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Yes that’d be no problem, Mr. Chairman.
I have more questions but I’d like to recognize the clock and maybe ask that we report progress for the day and then resume discussions on this on Monday.
This motion is not debatable.
We will report progress and we would request that the Speaker return to the Chamber.
Also Mr. Ng, do you have any more comments.
Yes, I’d like to thank Mr. Dingle and also to recognize and thank the interpreters who have put in a very long week and we have a lot to name.
Can we ascertain if the Speaker is ready to return to the chamber.
We will see each other on Monday and we will continue with the supplementary appropriations then.
Your committee has been considering Bill 13 and would like to report that Bill 13 is still under consideration and would like to report progress, and Mr. Speaker, I move the report the committee of the whole be concurred with.
Orders of the Day for Monday December the 3rd, 2001;
017 - 1(5)
This House stands adjourned.
>>House adjourned at 2:09 p.m.
Monday December 3, 2001
2316 – 2381
Opening Prayer 2316
Ministers' Statements 2317
Members' Statements 2321
Returns to Oral Questions 2326
Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery 2327
Oral Questions 2329
Returns to Written Questions 2345
Tabling of Documents 2345
Motions 2346
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters 2347
Report of the Committee of the Whole 2380
Third Reading of Bills 2380
Monday December 3, 2001 2316
131 - 1(5): Critical Incident Stress Management (Anawak) 2317
132 - 1(5): Minister's Absence (Ng) 2318
133 - 1(5): Tobacco Reduction Campaign (Picco) 2318
134 - 1(5): Department of Finance's Qikiqtaaluk Office (Ng) 2319
135 - 1(5): Housing Ministers' Agreement on Affordable Housing (Thompson) 2319
136 - 1(5): International Year of the Volunteer (Anawak) 2320
369 - 1(5): Donations for Compassionate Travel (Iqaqrialu) 2321
370 - 1(5): Training for Midwives (Thompson) 2322
371 - 1(5): Encouraging Use of Inuktitut (Anawak) 2322
372 - 1(5): Iqaluit Music Society Wizard of Oz Show (Tootoo) 2323
373 - 1(5): Pre-Christmas Craft Sale (Picco) 2324
374 - 1(5): Planning for Recreation Centre (Irqittuq) 2324
375 - 1(5): Future of Transportation (McLean) 2325
376 - 1(5): Sanikiluaq’s Concern on Quebec Agreement (Kattuk) 2326
Return to Question 329 - 1(5): Culture, Language, Elders and Youth Staffing (Kattuk) 2326
380 - 1(5): Igloolik Recreation Centre (Irqittuq) 2329
381 - 1(5): Community Consultations on Heritage Centre Site (McLean) 2331
382 - 1(5): Jet Service to Pond Inlet (Nutarak) 2333
383 - 1(5): Sanikiluaq Environmental Concerns Over Hydro Dams (Iqaqrialu) 2335
384 - 1(5): Temperature Compensation Meters (Tootoo) 2336
385 - 1(5): 4.9 Million for Public Housing (McLean) 2338
386 - 1(5): Timing of New Housing Construction (Nutarak) 2339
387 - 1(5): Savings Due to Compensation Meters (Tootoo) 2340
388 - 1(5): Cost of APTN Anti-Smoking Campaign (McLean) 2341
389 - 1(5): Distribution of Prescription Drugs (Tootoo) 2343
390 - 1(5): Hamlets Act Amendments (Iqaqrialu) 2344
Return to Question 013 - 1(5): Capital Expenditures for Culture, Language, Elders and Youth (Kattuk) 2345
065 - 1(5): Statutory Requirements for Tabling of Reports & Other Documents (Speaker) 2345
066 - 1(5): Public Meeting Held October 25, 2001 on Rankin Inlet Birthing Centre (Thompson) 2346
017 - 1(5): Extended Adjournment (Tootoo) 2346
Bill 13 - Supplementary Appropriation Act No. 2, 2001/02 - Consideration in Committee 2347
Bill 13 - Supplementary Appropriation Act No. 2, 2001/2002 - Third Reading 2380  Monday December 3, 2001
Honourable Jack Anawak, Mr. David Iqaqrialu, Mr. Enoki Irqittuq, Honourable Peter Kattuk, Honourable Peter Kilabuk, Mr. Glenn McLean, Mr. Jobie Nutarak, Honourable Kelvin Ng, Honourable Kevin O'Brien, Honourable Ed Picco, Honourable Manitok Thompson, Mr. Hunter Tootoo, Ms. Rebekah Williams.
Speaker (Mr. O'Brien): Members, I will do the prayer today.
Speaker: Members before we start today, I would like to recognize and acknowledge a delegation that has come up from Saskatchewan to be with us and also to present the beautiful gift that you see in the hallway on behalf of the Province.
We have the Honourable Speaker of the House, Myron Kowalski and his wife Ooleesia.
Also, Mr. Ron Harper a government member.
Ms. Arlene Shulet, and she would be an opposition member.
Jacklin Bertine.
That would be one of the artists and her other half James Clarke.
Also Margaret Woods, the Clerk's Assistant.
And Linda Spence, Secretary to the Speaker.
Welcome to the Chamber. Returning to the Orders of the Day.
Minister's Statement 131 - 1(5): Critical Incident Stress Management
Mr. Speaker, I rise today to inform the Members of the House about a very important service provided by the Department of Community Government & Transportation's Emergency Management Division.
In emergency situations we often recognize those who have responded and provided help.
But people who provide this help often need help themselves, especially when they have provided help in a situation where the victim suffered serious injury or death.