EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
It would mean if there were a hundred people ninety-three of these people would be having their rents subsidised by the government.
Say if there is a population ninety-three percent do not actually pay the rent out of their own pockets. They are being subsidised by the government.
We can understand that but sometimes people do not want to work anymore because their rent automatically goes up.
However, in a situation where no one pays any rent at all in the whole unit it would not promote any form of independence.
We would have to look at it further should we encourage that kind of living whereby we provide for everything and all the utilities and gas consumption.
Shouldn't we be paying and providing for our people.
Huge amounts of people pay thirty-two dollars a month.
We have huge numbers and we are going to continue to look at that and see what kind of rent scales we can come up with.
Even though people are interested in obtaining employment most of them don't because it automatically raises there level and this has been an ongoing pattern. Someone still has to pay for the shelter.
Ninety - three percent of the units are actually being paid by income support.
I can understand what the member is referring to because I have seen that used as examples in other places.
But the monies that you use to pay towards your rent we are gong to find out because this was in one of the recommendations of the task force.
Her response is very clear and I am very happy with that, but it is not been our tradition to pay for our shelters.
It is not part of our culture.
Back in the old days we never had to pay rent.
We never had to pay for our kamiks.
When we consider that I think it really bothers the older people because it has not been the tradition where they have to pay for their shelter.
I suppose today through education people have to get used to having to pay for accommodations because we need all the operation and maintenance for the units.
Chairperson (interpretation): Do you have any comments or responses.
I do not have any more names on the list.
Do you want to go clause by clause or page by page. Mr. Tootoo.
I have a number of just general comments.
In the minister's opening remarks about the corporation providing the support in order to empower local housing associations and the delivery of housing programs at the community level.
I would like to look at the organizational chart , as it doesn't reflect that happening. Before division the positions weren't just technical officers.
All the functions that were related to the people and the corporation at the district level were community development officers.
I don't see that, I see it in the vision and the mandate but I don't see it in the org. chart.
I'm just wondering if I could get some clarification on that.
If we wanted to give authorisation for the local housing associations, we would no longer require regional offices we would decentralise those positions to the local housing authority.
Thus empowering it is something for consideration for the future.
The question that he is asking I am very happy to hear.
I think I will get Pam Hine to respond if you do not mind Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Hine: Thank you Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Tootoo explained that it is in our business plan to empower the local housing organizations.
Not one employee in the Nunavut Housing Corporation does not recognize the expertise at the community level.
Our commitment is to continue to empower them and like Minister Thompson has said maybe one day we will actually devolve everything to the community level and no longer have anything at the regional level.
But I don’t see that happening in the near future.
The organizational chart, the names on the organisational chart may not have community empowerment written on them.
I think the reason was that we wanted to make this a Nunavut Housing Corporation and we had the feeling if we continued with the same positions and titles as the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation people might not be expecting any type of change but the status quo.
That is not what we are trying to achieve and although the organizations on the organizational chart do not have community empowerment in the actual name that is definitely part of the job descriptions of those employees.
Mr. Chairman in light of the minister and the President being aware of my experience with the corporation and the previous years the capital tenders and stuff were administered through the local housing associations.
Now I see this year that it is done through the Nunavut Housing Corporation itself.
So when one sees that happening it is a function that was devolved down to the LHOs but is now pulled back and I'm wondering why that has happened.
Are they looking for doing it in the future and I'm wondering why it has been pulled back.
I think that question was asked previously during the meeting.
I responded by saying we are building 100 houses for the first time.
Yes I understand the LHOs used to deal with contracts. I understand that.
However, because the houses have to be built in an emergency basis and we could not turn back so the local housing associations we would like them to have some authority doing contracts.
Nevertheless, with the 100 houses for the first time since we got the Nunavut Government that is why we are dealing with them right now.
We are not trying to take any power away from the local housing associations. We were thinking along the lines of having more community residents gaining employment in the communities.
We would like to do that. We are not trying to take any power away from them.
Perhaps Ms. Hine can elaborate on that.
Just to elaborate a little on that.
The 100 housing units is a very big project where they are going to built in all communities.
It is the biggest project that has been taken on since post 1993.
We are also, as you are aware, we are still waiting for approval of our budget.
So we are also aware that we want the construction of these units to go through properly, that is why we brought it down to the actual district offices for the actual tender for this specific project.
Also the tenders are issued under the new NNI policy.
We thought it was unfair to the local housing authorities to provide them now with a tender under a policy that we haven't had yet or had the opportunity to train them on.
So as we do this opening we are bringing our local technical people together for a workshop to do the actual tender award. To train them on the Nunavummi Nangminiqaqtunik Ikajuuti policy so they will be well versed and educated and work with the LHOs and bring them up to standard on the Nunavummi Nangminiqaqtunik Ikajuuti policy.
Mr. McLean: Community empowerment is as close to me as anyone because I was involved in a great number of local housing associations.
I fully believe that if you don't empower people they don't learn the skills at the local level to do things.
This year, you are saying the local housing corp. is delivering the program and probably because of the time lines it is probably a good idea.
In the region I come from the ship, supply and erect is going forward probably because of the time lines.
Is this program going to happen next year. The hundred units again next year.
The standing committee on housing, I will have to get the recommendations of the standing committee on housing if they want to go ahead with it next year.
Or, we could listen to what they have to say and then do what they want us to do.
But for this year there are a hundred houses being built. I'm just gong to be waiting for the members of the legislative assembly to give me direction.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Madame minister.
That basically answers the question.
So your department is seriously considering if we do this that the municipalities out there or the LHOs out there who want to do these projects themselves or download them to the municipalities you would seriously consider it.
Hon. Manitok Thompson: I was the last minister on community empowerment and that is really dear to my heart that we should empower the hamlets and also the local people.
I think that is the way to go in our society, and I would be seriously consider that at this time. We couldn't do it because there was the new Nunavummi Nangminiqaqtunik Ikajuuti policy and we had to train the local housing associations. Plus the magnitude of the project.
But I will also consider that. I am already developing a 5-year plan for housing and the MLAs will be involved in that. So I would be looking forward to the recommendations on any changes that they will like to make.
Mr. McLean: On that Nunavummi Nangminiqaqtunik Ikajuuti policy and we were all included in it with quite a bit of debate.
Housing in our communities is probably one of the biggest employers for labour, and a lot of people, contractors, part-time and seasonal workers depend on this type of seasonal work to pay for their life styles.
Snowmobiles, boat motors and they really heavily rely on this type of construction.
Me, I am a private sector individual and our economy relies on the construction industry.
How much local labour, because I haven't seen these contracts yet, what is the minimum local labour that will be established in these contracts that are tendered out now.
I do not have the detail with me at this time. Perhaps Ms. Hine has the detail for that. As long as the Nunavummi Nangminiqaqtunik Ikajuuti policy was being followed then the contractor in the community would hire a lot of local people.
I would like to see it that way as well. I am not really sure exactly because I do not have the percentage with me or the detail with me. I could get the information, but I know that the people in the communities and local contractors have to be hired to do that construction.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. McLean.
Well I will be heading home this weekend and I can probably pick up the contract documents and find out in Rankin.
They will have in them what the minimum amount of labour should be.
What I am getting to here, is historically it used to be forty-five to fifty percent.
Public housing units and Nunavummi Nangminiqaqtunik Ikajuuti, but I haven't seen the documents but I hope to see them and I hope that local labour component is set at a level that reflects the skills in each community.
Thank you that is all the questions I have right now.
Hon. Manitok Thompson (interpretation): Well before you go home this weekend we will get you a copy. Then we will see what the percentage is in the contracts.
I just want to clarify a point.
The minister and her staff said the reason for the corporation administering the capital this year was basically because of the new Nunavummi Nangminiqaqtunik Ikajuuti policy coming into place. Did the Housing Corporation or the minister check with any LHOs to see whether they would want to or not, or just assume that it would be too difficult for them and they just automatically decided to do it by themselves.
As a government we have to make decisions on behalf of the people and we understood from the communities that they wanted additional housing in their communities.
If anything is going to be determined by training people about the NNI policy then we wouldn’t have been able to go ahead with the building of these houses.
We cannot turn back the clock or do you think it would have been better if we had not built the houses at all.
What is more important, whether we should inform the communities or not.
It is over and done with we just started going ahead using whatever we thought was the best.
I will take that as a no that they didn’t consult with anyone in the communities to see if they wanted to take on these projects, they just decided themselves that they would do it.
Mr. Chairman, I know, the other reason they use is the magnitude of this project.
We are talking about I believe 15 million dollars worth of capital.
Mr. Chairman, in my experience I know a few years ago just in the Baffin region alone there was 25 million dollars worth of housing capital that was done in one season.
That was, except for one project I believe, done through the LHOs.
I know for example in Clyde River in one year they did over 2 million dollars worth of capital just in Clyde River through the LHO there.
It’s a very small community.
I know that if you lump it all together and say 100 units this is very large.
Per community and using the standard design that is there, the design is nothing magical about the design of these facilities.
I don’t know if I swallow that but I can understand if they are saying because of the NNI policy. I don’t buy the fact that the magnitude of the project is a deterrent because I know for a fact that communities handled much more than that in the past.
So going on to something else Mr. Chairman, in the past under the NWT Housing Corporation taking a look at the organizational charts and that.
The Baffin Region was roughly 23 PY’s or staff for the District Office for 13 communities.
In the Nunavut Housing Corporation I believe that there are 14.
In the Kivalliq I believe that there was about 11 or 12 PY’s for seven communities and they still have 11 PY’s under the Nunavut Housing Corporation.
The same with the Kitikmeot I believe, had 10 or 11 staff for six communities and they have 11 now under the org chart in there.
I am just wondering how or where they determined those numbers and where all those staff went.
Pam Hine has the numbers. I will give her the mike.
Chairperson: Ms. Hine.
The organizational chart is the organizational chart that we come under it is still under a draft because we have just become a stand-alone corporation.
We have a number of vacant positions that we are going to try to staff up.
We realize that there is probably going to be some room to re-organize it again.
All the regional offices have been consulted with the proposed organizational charts.
We do have their agreement with the charts that are showing here, at least on an interim basis until such time as we can get staffed up and operate as a stand-alone corporation.
>>Committee recessed for ten minutes
I have a name on my list.
I sort of lost my train of thought there but I guess in a sense I was talking about the PY’s in the District Offices.
You indicated the two smaller regions, the Kivalliq and the Kitikmeot, basically their numbers hardly dropped at all.
The Baffin Region, which is almost double the size of the other two regions, basically cut in half as far as staff to run the programs and services to the region.
I just wondered if other than the fact that I am sure that the staff there have been shown this and I don’t know how comfortable they may be in saying that we think there should be more or not.
But I am sure that there are people out there in the LHOs and in the communities that are taking a look at the numbers and scratching their heads themselves wondering why or how that happened.
I don’t know if I can get a little more clarification on that. Thank you Mr. Chairman.
Again as I have mentioned previously, we are trying to change the structure of the organization.
As it is now the Nunavut Housing  Corporation and we are currently trying to work with the resources that we do have and to see how we can best serve our Local Housing Organizations.
Again, we are trying to fulfil our commitment to empower the local communities, LHOs at the community level and have them take on more responsibilities as well.
We are looking internally at some pilot projects as to how maybe we can better have the communities equal in the different regions by maybe having some of the communities being serviced by another region.
Again, we are just in the early planning stages to see if this is even feasible.
We are taking internal actions to see how we can better suit the organizational chart to the needs.
Mr. Chairman, I want to make it clear that I am not trying to be critical.
I am very pleased with the fact that we have finally a stand alone Nunavut Housing Corporation.
I think like I had said earlier this session, that’s something that I have thought about a long time ago and I am glad to see that it has finally come around to that.
It is too bad, and it is not fault of the minister and the staff, that it has taken that long to do that. But I am glad to see that it has come back to that type of a structure.
I guess with the structure then, what we are looking at as far as the structure goes and what we were presented with isn’t really the structure that is going to be. I am just wondering when we will see a final structure for the Nunavut Housing Corporation and what it will actually look like.
I remember the other day I was asking about those additional technical positions that were supposed to be coming over from Public Works.
Now are those going to be on top of the ones that are listed in the organizational chart. I believe that it was about 11 or 12 positions.
Are those going to be on top of these ones, because it was stated earlier that those positions were still in the Department of Public Works and not moved over to the Housing Corporation.
The numbers on the organizational chart actually do include the technical positions that will be coming over from Public Works; they are the technical people that you see in the regional offices.
Then I am just wondering how, I don’t know if I totally misunderstood, but I thought that we were told the other day that those positions were still in Public Works and how it could show up in two different plans.
I am just confused, are the budget numbers for Public Works out for that and not here.
It seems that we have counted those people twice, from my understanding of what we have heard over the last couple of days. I would just like to get some clarification there.
The member is asking for clarification.
We are under the Nunavut Housing Corporation and we have already agreed to the Department of Public Works.
The Nunavut Housing Corporation is a stand-alone department.
Ms. Hine: Although the bodies are shown in the organizational chart the budget is remaining at Public Works.
The approval from Cabinet and the Financial Management Board when we set up the corporation was that the bodies could come over but we could not yet transfer the dollars because the budget has not yet been approved.
We would have to wait until the committee of the whole has completed and the budget is approved.
Then we could actually physically remove the dollars from Public Works over to Housing Corp. So at this point the positions are under Housing Corp the dollars for those positions are at Public Works until such time as the budget has been approved and a proper transfer of the dollars can be moved over.
Mr. Chairman, is one to assume that in the Main Estimates when we talk about the total budget for compensation, 3 million 85 thousand 208 dollars, will increase as a result of the transfer of those positions.
If that were the case then we would be seeing a supp in order to do that.
Because it was my understanding of the process that once we approve the budget that any changes to that have to come here in the form of a supplementary appropriation.
Ms. Hine: Yes. That is correct Mr. Tootoo.
Basically what happened is our Main Estimates were completed prior to our approval as a separate corporation.
So the compensation, our compensation that you are shown there is basically for 38 employees.
That is one of the reasons why we cannot, although we have the approval as a stand alone corporation, we have the approval for the 11 technical positions, that is why we cannot get the actual dollars at this specific time because the Main Estimates have not been approved.
Although they were tabled and presented they have not been approved.
We have to wait until that is done.
Then there will be the proper form that has to be done and again approved to physically transfer the dollars from Public Works to Housing Corporation.
Mr. Chairman, also in the minister’s opening comments she talked about doing an RFP to lease a number of units.
I believe that in the budget there is 1 million dollars set aside for that purpose.
Just wondering if, I know that we are in the department, and the Housing Corporation is building 100 units at roughly a cost of 15 million dollars.
Was there any thought or analysis done as to whether this was the best use of the dollars.
Like for another 1 million dollars we probably could have built a few more units.
I am just wondering, I know we wouldn’t be able to build 40, but maybe I will just leave it at that before I go on.
The member has stated that 1 million dollars cannot possibly build 40 units but there are 40 units available if that 1 million dollars is approved.
We could use units but it is not enough to build 40 houses.
Again, I was asking if there was an analysis done to determine if that was the best use of the resources.
I don’t know what the term of the leases are on these but it is just 1 million dollars this year.
Are they, depending on the length of the lease, if they are 15 year leases then you are looking at 15 million dollars for 40 units.
We are building 100 units for 15 million dollars.
So I guess in that type of way was it looked at, at all in determining which way to go on that.
We had been told repeatedly that there were some houses vacant and getting broken windows and everything.
There were some perfectly good houses that are boarded up and vacant and there is a long list of people on the waiting list.
We had approved to rent units.
We are not talking about a 15-year lease agreement.
We are looking at a 5-year lease agreement.
We were first told to build 75 houses, when we became a Legislative Assembly but later in the day we were told to build 100 units.
I am glad now that we will make available 140 units.
It is quite clear now that we are going to be using our 1 million dollars in the best possible way.
It is going to, we have been getting a lot of phone calls from the communities and they were saying that there were a lot of vacant houses which were boarded up and could be put to good use.
I do know where the member is coming from when he is asking if we could have used this money more effectively.
Even though there is operation and maintenance of these houses, we would love to build more houses, it is not possible and I do believe that we are putting that one million dollars to good use, because we are going to be leasing empty houses.
We are not looking at a long term plan.
It is a short term lease agreement.
The President of the Housing Corporation will give us more details if you don’t mind Mr. Chairman.
Chairperson (interpretation): It’s okay.
Again, just to elaborate just a little bit on what the minister has talked about.
We are looking at a short term response to the need for units within Nunavut.
At this point we are just looking at five-year leases, to see and to establish benchmarks that we can take into consideration when we develop our five-year strategy.
So that we can make sure what is the most cost efficient manner for us to put more units to be used by the residents of Nunavut.
Again in the opening comments, and I think that everybody can agree to, as the government we have to realize that we are not going to be able to meet the demand that is currently facing us on our own.
We will have to be able to look at other organizations and the private sector to assist us in meeting the needs of housing in Nunavut.
Perhaps if you wish to finish your comments Mr. Tootoo.
We were given a ten minute time frame to have questions and general comments.
Keep in mind that there are other members who wish to make general comments.
Would you like to conclude or would you like to await your next turn.
Mr. Tootoo: Mr. Chairman, one more question on this and then I will gladly let other members go ahead.
I do have some other questions but just on that.
The plan then after five years is to have alternative plans for the people that are going to be in these units. I guess by then they want to have been able to have built up more public housing stock to be able to move those people into.
On the five-year plan, this will be part of our strategy as to what we will do with our rental units.
At this time I am going to move on to another name on my list.
My question will be brief and to the point.