EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Question 419 – 4(2): Duty Travel Administration (Enook)
The Minister of Community and Government Services has told us that the Department of Health is responsible for administering the government’s contracts for medical travel and duty travel.
The Minister of Health has told us that his department has nothing to do with the duty travel portion of the contract.
So that we won’t stay in confusion, can the Minister of Finance please put an end to this confusion and clearly explain which department is responsible for this matter?
I don’t know why it came down to me to explain all this, but I’ll try.
Community and Government Services is responsible for procurement. They work on putting out the contract and requests for proposals for any work with the departments to evaluate them.
As I understand it, there’s one contract, but there are two components. The health department oversees and administers the medical travel component.
Now, when it gets to duty travel, Finance has a big responsibility there, but it’s up to the individual departments. They have their employees. We’re not the central travel agency.
Each department is responsible for duty travel, so you have a minister, deputy minister, and you’ve got their corporate services, and they do all the bookings and they do the accountings.
As the Department of Finance, we can track how they’re doing on a monthly basis.
When it comes to ministerial offices, it’s the same thing. The individual offices, for example, my office will do my bookings for me and I will put in my travel claims in and do the proper accounting.
I don’t know if I can be any clearer than that, but if Mr. Enook has any additional questions, I would be more than pleased to take it.
As I said last week, as the Department of Finance, in January, we sent out an email. We got all the information from all the departments. We sent an email out to all departments saying, “Be responsible.
Here’s the contract. Submit the information.” We encourage them to allocate between the two airlines.
Now, if they don’t do that, then we’ve got a big problem. It’s as simple as that.
As I said last week, we have the capacity, but it would be very challenging and onerous for the departments.
We have the capacity to break it right down to individual traveller, if need be.
Mr. Enook (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) I thank the minister for the offer for me to ask further questions.
(interpretation) The Minister of Community and Government Services informed us that the medical travel and duty travel agreement expires on August 31 this year.
Can the Minister of Finance clearly explain whether or not the duty travel portion of the contract will be extended or will the government be issuing a new request for proposals?
All contracts of this nature usually have an option for renewal.
I haven’t met with my colleagues yet to discuss what we are going to do in terms of renewing or going to another RFP.
This agreement expires on August 31.
I understand that the minister has not spoken with those people.
Can the Minister of Finance explain when they will be able to make the decision?
I know that you will have to make a decision prior to August 31. Can the minister tell me if they’re working on this issue immediately now?
Our officials are well aware of the dates and I believe they are meeting and the respective ministers will be given an update and we will be making a decision at that point.
Tabling of Documents. (interpretation) Premier of Nunavut, Mr. Taptuna.
Tabled Document 110 – 4(2): 2015 Council of the Federation Winter Meeting (Taptuna)
I am pleased to table the 2015 Council of the Federation Winter Meeting which took place in Ottawa on January 29 to 30, 2015.
Bill 20 – Legislation Act – First Reading
I move, seconded by the Member for Iqaluit-Manirajak, that Bill 20, Legislation Act, be read for the first time.
The motion is carried and Bill 20 has received its first reading.
>>House recessed at 15:07 and Committee resumed at 15:32
Chairman (Mr. Akoak): Hello, Inuit, Nunavummiut, (interpretation) members, and our audience.
Mr. Chairman, we wish to continue with the review of the 2015-16 Main Estimates of the Department of Family Services, followed by the Department of Justice and, if time permits, the Department of Finance.
Iqsuktii, please assist the staff to the witness table.
I have my (interpretation ends) Deputy Minister, Rebekah Williams, (interpretation) and Brandon Grant, Comptroller.
We are on page D-6. Income Assistance.
The next name on my list, Mr. Sammurtok.
I’m going on to page 125 of the business plan, seniors’ fuel subsidy. The amount budgeted for 2015-16 is $478,000, which is the same as it was in 2014-15.
Can the minister tell us how much of this budget is expended from year to year and how often there is a surplus?
For the Senior Fuel Subsidy Program, according to my knowledge, the funding is not completely expended, but I’ll have Mr. Grant explain it further.
We’re now reviewing the policy for fuel subsidy.
The amount for senior fuel subsidy has not changed from 2014-15.
Traditionally, the full amount budgeted for the senior fuel program is not expended.
It’s about half the amount and I’ll find the proper amount for the member.
According to the business plan, applications for the subsidy are income-tested.
It is my understanding that for those elders who qualify for the subsidy, there’s a maximum amount of fuel that would be paid for under the subsidy. For example, in Rankin Inlet, the maximum amount is 2,668 litres.
Can the minister confirm that that is the case?
Hon. Jeannie Ugyuk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) Zone 1 (interpretation) can receive 2,668 litres.
As the minister indicated and her officials, the amount is not expended year to year.
Since the department never spends all the funds allocated for the senior fuel subsidy and given that some years are colder than others like this year, the elders need more than the amount of fuel that has been subsidized.
Would the minister consider changing the policy to increase the number of litres of fuel that can be subsidized for elders?
Yes, we reviewed that and there are (interpretation ends) zones 1, 2, 3, (interpretation) and 4. They vary from zone to zone and according to the income of the elders, they’re provided with a subsidy.
If they make up to $75,000 a year, they’re provided with a substantial fuel subsidy.
If they make over $100,000 a year, I believe they receive half the fuel subsidy.
I’ll have Brandon respond further.
We are going to be reviewing the Senior Fuel Subsidy Program and the review will probably be completed this summer.
As the minister stated, we are reviewing all of the programs under the income assistance umbrella, including the Senior Fuel Subsidy Program.
We will be looking at the various zones, the amount of litres that are provided, as well as the income level cut-offs that the current program utilizes as part of the review.
Mr. Mapsalak (interpretation): Thank you. Mr. Chairman.
I won’t be too long as I only have three questions right now.
On Friday, there was a question I want to understand a bit better. My colleague, Mr. Enook, asked in regard to social assistance recipients getting asked for bank statements.
Only after they approve and sign a release, they can get assistance.
That is the way I understood it.
What if clients don’t want to release their bank statements? What happens in that case?
Do they get assistance? I’m asking about cases where the clients don’t want to release their bank statements (interpretation ends) or bank receipts. (interpretation) Thank you.
Mr. Chairman
Thank you to the member for asking.
The family services department is not the only one like this. The Nunavut Housing Corporation does that too where assistance is required.
As to the actual breakdown, I will ask Brandon Grant to provide it.
I just want to utilize this opportunity to provide the member the amount for the senior fuel actuals for 2013-14, which was $250,000 of the $478,000.
The answer to the member’s question is we have to establish the person’s needs to be able to do an income assistance assessment.
All clients must sign a statement of authorization authorizing us to verify income.
If people aren’t willing to allow us to verify income, they’re not a person in need or we cannot establish that person as in need.
Mr. Mapsalak (interpretation): Do I understand that if they won’t show their bank statements, they cannot get assistance?
Is that the way I understand it?
Yes, that is the way as you understand it. When it comes to issues with income assistance, there is a complaint service and there is an (interpretation ends) appeal committee. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
We are all aware of the appeal process.
However, I was approached by my constituents, as many people require assistance without many options and this is particularly true in my constituency.
I have been informed and have found out personally, in having heard a person speak on the radio who happened to be local worker, social assistance workers don’t always have to be welcoming to clients.
I thought that was a bit much and it made me wonder if that is, indeed, the case.
I wonder if this is a policy that is followed where they can’t be too welcoming.
This is based on the words of the worker that I heard on our local radio.
It seems to go against the rules. Can this be allowed to happen?
This is the first I have even heard of it.
As a service department, we follow the policies, but I have never heard of any policies dealing with that because they’re dealing with social assistance.
I would like Brandon Grant to explain it further.
All clients have the right to be treated with respect. It is our policy within family services to treat everybody with respect and provide the services that our department offers.
I would be happy to follow up with the member to find out the specifics of the example he has provided so we can make corrective actions.
Yes, it would be good to investigate this because we heard about it through the community radio. I know that there is an appeal board or committee.
They said that even if they try to go through the appeals committee, they are told just to write it down.
Some of the people don’t know how to write a letter of complaint.
That’s the instruction that they received from the appeals committee or board.
I’m just wondering if this can be changed. Can they not get someone to call them because not all people can write a letter?
Can you only make complaints through correspondence?
In Nunavut and previous to the creation of our territory when we were the NWT, we used the appeals system and the procedures have not changed.
There is a board that meets through teleconference.
Brandon Grant will provide further explanation.
Every client has the right to appeal the decision of the income assistance worker. They can do that either through writing or verbally tell the worker and the worker will make arrangements for a teleconference. The client can call in to the proceedings of the appeal committee to make their case on why their appeal was incorrectly handled by the worker.
Upon completion of that, they are notified in writing and in person by the worker of the decision of the first level of appeal.
There is also a second level of appeal which, if the client is still not satisfied with the decision of the first level of appeal, they can appeal to the final body, which is the second level, for a final decision on their appeal.
Chairman: Thank you. The next name on the list, Mr. Savikataaq.
I would just like to ask a few questions under social assistance and under income support too.
My colleague, Mr. Rumbolt, brought this up saying that if a client receives up to or over $40 a month as money or in kind, it could be deducted as income.
If you’re receiving food from a food bank, and you’re asked if you received any money, do you have to declare that as income?
Brandon will give an explanation of the policy.
No, if a person receives food from a food bank, it would not go against their income assistance assessment.
What we try to establish is whether or not the gift is casual in nature or whether or not it is a reoccurring or monthly or quarterly gift that is provided, whether it is a social or economic gift, as well as the value of the gift. All things are taken into consideration on a number of fronts.
As I stated to the other member, this highlights the need for change, the need for a liquid asset exemption rule as well that is going to look at these areas in which we should have new regulations coming forward with our lawyer bringing forward those on March 31.
We don’t count birthday gifts and Christmas gifts of reasonable value towards their income assistance as well as food that they would receive through the food bank.
Staying on income support, can an income support client buy tobacco products?
When people get social assistance, we don’t direct them or check to see what they are buying.
I didn’t ask the minister if she knows what they bought.
I asked her: can a client buy tobacco products with income support money?
My colleague, Mr. Enook, was talking about misuse or abuse of income support.
He was told that only if it is fraud or theft, it is misuse. I’ll ask the minister: is it a misuse to buy tobacco products with income support money?
They are not in the policy, so I can’t provide a response.
I didn’t ask if it was in the regulation. I just asked the minister if it’s misuse. It’s simple.
Is it misuse of government funds to buy a tobacco product or is that normal use?
Hon. Jeannie Ugyuk: Mr. Chairman, I don’t know if I can make myself clearer. It’s not in the regulations or policies or the Act.
Chairman: Mr. Quassa, was there a point of order?
Hon. Paul Quassa: Yes, there was a point of order.
The reasoning being that the minister answered very clearly as to the question and the question seems to be repeating itself.
I think the minister answered immediately when the question was put forward concerning clients being able to buy cigarettes. (interpretation) The minister already answered the question and the member seems to be asking the same question over again.
It does not seem to be a point of order. It’s just a question.
We have members asking questions. You have ten minutes to ask.
If you want to continue, Mr. Savikataaq.
I’ll acknowledge that the minister answered my question that they can buy tobacco products.
I did not ask that one again. I just simply asked if that is considered normal use or misuse of government funds.
The question you asked is yes, we don’t have a policy stating that they can buy this and that, but they buy things at their discretion.
I’ll just leave it at that. Maybe someone might want to continue.
I don’t think it is good use of government funds, but I don’t run the department, so I’ll leave it at that.
I’ll go to a lighter subject, the senior fuel subsidy.
My counterpart there, Mr. Sammurtok, brought it up and the minister stated that the funds weren’t totally used.
My understanding of the program is that you spend the money and the amount that is spent on fuel by the senior gets reimbursed.
Sometimes the senior spends the money on something else instead of buying fuel and it’s supposed to be sort of like a revolving fund so that they continue to get reimbursed.
Has there been any consideration been given, for someone that qualifies for this senior fuel subsidy, that the total amount that they are entitled to be put in as a credit to the fuel contractor and then the senior can use up that amount within the year?
We have tried it, but it didn’t work out. I’ll refer it to Brandon Grant. If they make up to $75,000, they are given 100 percent of the subsidy.
Seniors in (interpretation ends) zone 1 (interpretation) receive 2,668 litres. If they make between $75,000 and $100,000, they receive 1,334 litres for the senior fuel subsidy.
I’ll have Brandon Grant elaborate on the senior fuel subsidy.
I think that all options are on the table in terms of how we approach the Senior Fuel Subsidy Program.
I think we can take a look at the member’s suggestion. We are currently reviewing, not just the way in which we provide the senior fuel [subsidy], but also looking at our income rates that the minister just referenced as well as the litres of fuel per community as well.
We are currently reviewing this program and everything is on the table at this point as long as it makes the program better for the people of Nunavut.
It seems like, for a lot of the questions, the answer is that everything is being reviewed.
Can we have a timeline of when the review will be done and whatever is recommended will actually start taking place?
In 2014-15, 107 elders were given assistance through the Senior Fuel Subsidy Program and we are going to finish this review in 2016.
We ran into a problem when we were looking at the tax issue.
We have to follow the rules because it affects a senior’s income.
I thank the minister for that explanation with the income limitations and stuff, but my suggestion was not to change income limitations, just that if someone does qualify under their income with the current amount of whatever they are entitled to, instead of having a reimbursement base, where they are given a credit at the fuel contractors.
In my mind, it’s easier for the seniors to get the fuel when they need it.
Another question I have is under FANS, student financial assistance.
Chairman: Sorry. Minister Ugyuk.
Hon. Jeannie Ugyuk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) Can we finish the Income Assistance Division?
Chairman: The question you are asking is on the next page.
We are on D-6, Income Assistance.
Mr. Savikataaq: Sorry, Mr. Chairman.
I thought it was on the same page here. I’m sorry for getting confused. I guess that will be it for now.
The last one was just a comment and not a question.
The next name on the list, Mr. Mikkungwak.
In reviewing the written materials in front of us, my first question is in regard to the income support assistance figures.
On page 124 of the business plan, in reviewing the materials, it seems to indicate a small increase for 2015-16 of approximately $57,000 more than the previous year’s budget.
My first question is regarding this decrease from last year since most of the line items indicated expenses were rising.
What is the reasoning behind that increase?
Which page were you referring to?
Chairman: We’re on page 124.
Hon. Jeannie Ugyuk (interpretation): The $57,000 increase is for income support.
With this increase, I’m very sure that it is for income assistance.
Looking at the other numbers, in the future, do you think that figure will be enough for all Nunavummiut on social assistance?
I also thank my colleague. We use human resources to make sure that there is training available, but we do try to budget enough so that we cover everyone who requires assistance.
There are more and more young people out there who are of working age right now, but there is no employment available.
We would like to see more career training and development available for our youth.
I will move on to another subject.
My colleague asked this question regarding the Senior Fuel Subsidy Program.
My question is going to be slightly different.
On page 125 of the business plan, you have to be 60 and over to qualify for the Senior Fuel Subsidy Program.
My first question is regarding the people who receive the subsidy. In zones 1, 2, 3, and 4, there have been no changes recently with this Senior Fuel Subsidy Program.
From 2008, we haven’t made any changes.
If there haven’t been any increases since 2008, then that is seven years to date as it is 2015 now.
After our latest territorial election, in looking at the annual fuel prices that jumped up resulting in price increases for gasoline and heating fuel, we saw the corresponding increases in fuel expenses.
This year, we have seen the price of oil plummet, so I wonder why the figures haven’t changed since that year in light of the changes to the prices last year. What amount of fuel would have been purchased with this figure?
If we were to study the changes in prices between this year and last, has the subsidy remained the same?
I will refer this question to Brandon Grant.
For the subsidy, the subsidy pays the true cost of gas. If the cost of gas is $1.35 or if it’s $2, it will pay the full amount up to the subsidized rate for the litre.
When the price of gas goes up, it still goes in line with that because it pays the cost of gas no matter what the price is.
I would like to thank the official for his response.
We were concerned about the decrease, but I’m glad to hear that they are using true prices because it’s going to provide a subsidy to senior homeowners.
My last question is: when you turn 60, where and how do you apply for the subsidy program?
What would you have to do to apply for the subsidy program? Would the housing corporation write a letter to you or would you fill out forms? How do you go about applying for that subsidy program?
You have to go to income assistance workers.
To qualify, you have to be from Nunavut, be 60 years of age or over, own your own home, and not be an income support recipient.
The amount of subsidy is based on the level of income the client receives.
Maybe I’ll rephrase my question in English.
In order to be eligible for the senior fuel subsidy… . Let’s say, an individual is 59 and then the following year, they turn 60. In order to become eligible for the senior fuel subsidy, what documentation do they have to use or complete to validate that they are now eligible?
Would that information come from the Nunavut Housing Corporation or with the assistance of some documents being completed at the income support assistance office?
Hon. Jeannie Ugyuk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) The seniors go to the frontline workers to be assessed. Whatever documentation they need is worked through the income support worker. The five guidelines were: live in Nunavut, be 60 years of age or older, own the home in which they live, not be an income support recipient, and meet the allowable maximum net homeowner’s income test for the community in which they live in.
The frontline workers work closely with the seniors.
I would just like to take some of these responses a little step further when we’re talking about the allowance of income support to look at the financial statements of recipients.
I’m sure we have all heard or know people who have been forced to sell belongings that they have to supplement the needs of their family due to the high cost of living in Nunavut.
As the review is ongoing, I’m sure the department is aware that the current funding limits on income support aren’t always meeting the needs of Nunavummiut.
As an example, if an income support recipient sells a qamutik or a rifle or a vehicle maybe for $1, 000 and, I’m going to say, makes the mistake of putting that money in their bank account where it would show up, what would be the ramifications on their income support payment for the next month?
The Income Assistance Program has a variety of rules in how we count income; earned income versus unearned income. There is a whole list of different income exemption rules versus non-exemption rules that I would be happy to provide the member.
When we’re looking at different areas in terms of what people are selling, it really depends on whether or not it’s promoting self-reliance, whether or not you had collected your own materials and produced a product versus received a product.
There is a variety of different roles in which the program runs. The way that workers determine that, again, is through an income verification process.
It’s not just through bank statements but also through everything from pay stubs as well as NCBS printouts or the child tax benefit printouts. From that, we do an income test that determines what you may or may not be eligible for. It’s a complex procedure.
Our workers have a variety of rules which they must enforce.
They do the work to the best of their abilities with the information they have.
Our clients consent to the statement of authorization form. They consent to disclosing income to disclose that income to our workers so that they can do an honest assessment of what they have.