EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
We will see early on what the trend is and feedback from the communities and then we can make early decisions on other considerations for the program.
I look forward to seeing some progress on that file.
Speaking from experience, I gained some invaluable work experience through summer student programs in another jurisdiction that did provide a wage subsidy to private enterprise.
I would like to go back to the public service annual report. The latest one tabled in 2012-13 indicates that the turnover rate government-wide is approximately 11 percent. I know the minister and I have had numerous discussions on exit surveys and interviews.
According to the information provided by departing employees when they complete these exit surveys and interviews, what are the main reasons people leave the Government of Nunavut employment?
Yes, Mr. Hickes and I have had those conversations. I think it’s on our Human Resource Manual and it’s on the website.
At the current time, exit surveys are not mandatory; they are voluntary, so individuals do not need to fill them out. We would encourage them to fill them out.
I have asked my deputy minister and our HR officials to start “breathing new life” into the program, asking individuals to consider filling out the surveys, providing feedback to us so that we can help future employees in terms of making change that would improve our workplaces.
Would the minister or his department consider making exit interviews mandatory to people departing the public service?
We are not going to make it mandatory.
We don’t feel that we should force people to fill them out.
There is no compelling reason for a person leaving the government to fill them out, but what we do plan to do is make sure that everybody has the knowledge and the awareness that they can complete exit surveys.
If we raise that with them or provide that information to them, then perhaps we will get more exit surveys completed by departing employees.
I guess my next question for the minister then is, not all employees would be encouraged to fill out an exit interview, depending upon the reason of them departing employment with the Government of Nunavut.
What type of education or strategy does the department have to make sure that all departing employees are notified that they have that option to provide an exit survey to assist the HR function of this government to alleviate the turnover rate?
In every department, there is an individual who is assigned certain human resource functions. As the Department of Finance, we’re what I like to call the big HR. Within each department and public agency, there are people who have HR responsibilities.
They, I would hope, would be the people who make sure that the information is provided to departing employees.
I thank the minister for that response. I’m sure we will be having further conversations down the road on this topic.
I would like to jump over to the implementation of the ethics officer and the wrongdoing provisions of the Public Service Act.
In the minister’s opening comments, he stated that the position has been filled and the person will be coming to Iqaluit next week to meet with the minister and some of the MLAs.
What is the first order of business for the ethics officer?
I would say that the first order of business for the ethics officer is, by virtue of him coming to Iqaluit next week, to get some orientation here in Iqaluit and talk to my senior officials in the Department of Finance, and then talk to other deputies and meet the ministers and MLAs.
That would certainly be the first order of business, and then I’m sure he will familiarize himself with a number of other areas, including the emphasis on IQ (Inuit traditional knowledge), collective agreements, our Human Resource Manual, and all sorts of things that an ethics officer should be aware of when they take on that job.
I would like to switch gears over to the management of GN financial processes.
In my opening comments, I spoke to grants and contributions and the lack of detail that I and other members have raised under the grants and contributions annual report that is filed.
Some of the funds are going to corporate entities and for-profit organizations, with little to no information on what the grant or contribution is to achieve.
As the Department of Finance, when preparing the report for tabling, our responsibility is to take the information that is provided by the departments and then put it in the report and table it.
We certainly encourage the departments to provide us with more detail that spells out what the funds are used for and then we can table it in the House.
I do understand that you’re taking information in from other departments, but as the central agency, you dictate the parameters of information that you receive.
My question to the minister is: will you be directing other departments to provide further information under the grants and contributions category?
Mr. Chairman, we have to be careful with how much level of detail we want in reports. Now, I’m not sure what information Mr. Hickes wants, but if we start dictating the information to be in reports, we could have some very thick, heavy reports.
I have to be absolutely clear on what information Mr. Hickes would like us to include in the report and then we could consider it.
I’m sure my colleagues and I can get back to the minister with a little bit more of a detailed request.
In general, when we’re voting on these budgets and, as the minister has said in the past, you want to see value for investment, and if we don’t know what these funds were intended to do, it is hard for us to gauge the value received.
Maybe if the minister could just elaborate on that.
I agree with Mr. Hickes.
We do want to know if we receive value for funds given between organizations and businesses and of course, we compile the report on who has received the funds.
Mr. Hickes and his colleagues always have the opportunity on a micro level to ask individual ministers for that detailed information if they wish.
I’ll go back to my original question about the collective agreement on page 28 of your business plan. One of the priorities for 2017-18 at the very last bullet says, “Negotiate Nunavut Employees Union collective agreement.”
I was just wondering if you mean that you anticipate not completing the current one you’re negotiating until then.
Hon. Keith Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Hickes.
I’m more optimistic than I sometimes let on.
We’re negotiating a collective agreement now. As I said, we’ve only had a couple sessions. We’re hopeful that we will have some good, productive negotiations and that we will have a collective agreement.
A lot depends on the length of the contract, whether it is two years, three years, or four years.
That priority may change in the business plan next year or the year after, depending on what agreement we eventually settle at and at what length.
The question was coming from Mr. Savikataaq, not Mr. Hickes.
Just for clarity then, you’re talking about the next collective agreement on 2017-18.
I didn’t quite hear an answer and I’m not sure if you’re talking about this current negotiation.
I apologize to Mr. Savikataaq for calling him Mr. Hickes earlier. I’m a little foggy down here.
We’re talking 2017-18 that would be the next collective agreement, not this one.
Going on a completely different matter that my counterpart, Ms. Angnakak, brought up about sick leave when she brought up where you can transfer from a healthy to a non-healthy person, I would like to come at this in a different way.
Like the minister said, you have a generous sick leave benefits package, and it is generous, so I think the minister would agree with me saying that there is some abuse of sick leave and there is a good chance of abuse.
Is there any consideration to putting a value on sick leave when you leave the public service, not a full day’s value, but a value on the sick leave so that if you left the public service with a huge amount of sick leave, you can get paid out for a portion of it?
I believe that if you put a value on it, then the chance of it getting abused should be less because there’s a value.
Currently, right now, there is no real value for anyone not to use them. When you leave the public service, they’re just gone.
A lot of people just want to use them up like holidays and just use them up while the sick leave is available and while they’re there.
Are there any plans to put a value on sick leave when leaving the public service?
I understand clearly where he is coming from. I know there are many Government of Nunavut employees and other employees across Canada who can work for decades and build up 300 or 400 or 500 sick days.
With respect to the Government of Nunavut, it’s not something that we have considered and it’s not something we are considering at this time.
I think other jurisdictions may have something like that. Is there any particular reason why it is not even being considered?
Mr. Chairman, there is no particular reason why it’s not being considered. It is just that we are not considering it.
We have many other areas in HR that we are dealing with and banking sick leave and paying it out is not something that is high in our priority.
I thank the minister for his candid answer and that is all I have.
We are on Branch Summary. Finance. Comptrollership.
Welcome, minister and his officials.
I believe this is under C-7.
I asked the minister last week on medical travel leave for GN employees.
At the time, I think there might have been a slight misunderstanding because I didn’t ask him to change the current provisions of the Public Service Regulations or the collective agreement, but I asked him if he can review the government’s current interpretation and administration of those provisions pertaining to medical travel leave for GN employees.
I’m wondering if he can elaborate more on that.
I’m not sure what the misinterpretation might have been.
It says in the Public Service Regulations that you have up to four medical travel days to travel to another community for treatment.
To go on further to that, there might be employees that use up all of that in a week or two depending on how far they live outside of where they are travelling to, the hospital or the doctor they are visiting.
As I mentioned in my question to the minister, there have been cases where some employees have to end up using up or they have to claim special leave or other different means of trying to make ends meet.
They end up using their sick leave up or in extreme cases, they take leave without pay.
I’m just trying to emphasize to the minister that maybe you can look more into this issue on behalf of the public service.
I thank Mr. Joanasie for expressing his concern about the program.
As the Department of Finance, we work within the rules. The rules are up to four days. As Mr. Joanasie clearly stated, there are sick days, special leave, and leave without pay.
We can look into specific instances if Mr. Joanasie wishes and see if it was fair or not.
I hate to say this, but the rules are the rules and that’s why we have the Public Service Act, Public Service Regulations, we have a collective agreement signed between the NEU and the Government of Nunavut, and then we have the Human Resource Manual. There are all kinds of rules and processes so that people can understand their rights and the employer understands what they are required to do and their responsibilities to the employees.
I don’t know if I can say much more than that, Mr. Chairman.
I’ll move along to a different topic, this summer’s employment opportunities for students.
According to the business plan on page 28, the third bullet, it says they are expanding “student employment opportunities for students in non-decentralized communities.” Have they started identifying which communities that might have summer students?
I’m not sure if that has already been answered. Can you clarify?
There were 18 communities last year that participated in the summer student program. That means there are seven that didn’t. I thought I had that list here with me.
Unfortunately, I can’t bring in all the paper that I need here. We are going to work very hard to encourage other communities that didn’t participate to see if we can get some employment in those communities.
Officials brought the list.
We do have the list here.
I’ve got the list of the 18 communities, but I don’t have a list of the seven communities that didn’t. We are going to approach all the communities to ensure that they have an opportunity to create some employment for summer students.
I’m just advocating on behalf of my constituents in Kimmirut.
As a non-decentralized community, if they are not on that list, please add them on that list. I’m out.
I thank Mr. Joanasie for pointing that out.
Kimmirut had one student and Cape Dorset had five. It was a very successful program last year.
I’ll run some numbers by you folks. There was $4.2 million in student salaries last summer. There were 206 students employed in the 18 communities and 172 were beneficiaries.
Our budget from the Department of Finance was $950,000, so that means the departments used their own resources to pay the balance of that. The $4.2 million includes overtime earnings, northern living allowance, employer costs, and bilingual [bonuses].
There were 347 eligible applications last year, but only 206 summer students were hired.
Chairman: Thank you. We’re on page C-7. Branch Summary.
Finance. Mr. Enook.
On page C-7, I just want to get a clarification so that Nunavummiut can have the same level of understanding because I represent the public out there.
Nunavummiut feel it’s important that regular people can start working within the government.
Let me ask this question. We hear various issues about some people getting a job or being hired and we hear about nepotism.
I’m sure that you have heard about that, (interpretation ends) Hon. Minister. (interpretation) Why is that the case? Why is this happening?
Is it because the department staff are lacking on the compliance part or is it the departments knowingly doing that?
How come it is that way?
Mr. Chairman, as I have indicated previously, the Public Service Act is quite clear that you’re hired on merit and promoted on merit. If there is a competition in a community for a particular job, relatives are not supposed to participate in the recruitment.
It is quite clear there.
The Human Resource Manual outlines all the criteria for hiring casuals, relief workers, and indeterminate employees. It is all spelled out very clearly.
The code of values also is quite clear on nepotism and favoritism. Individual departments are responsible for ensuring that their directors, managers, and others who are in charge of hiring follow those rules.
The deputy ministers should absolutely be certain of them.
As the Department of Finance, on the occasions when we’re notified that there have been some possible breaches, the deputy minister should not be fighting us.
They should be working with us to ensure that there is compliance to the rules.
We’re not the bad guys here. We’re just trying to make sure that they follow the rules.
We believe strongly in a fair and transparent process.
If everybody follows the rules, then we shouldn’t have a lot of questions in the House from yourself and your colleagues about nepotism and favoritism.
I don’t know how to be much clearer.
There are the rules, the deputy ministers absolutely should know them, and it should be raised at senior management committee meetings internally to ensure that all the assistant deputy ministers, directors, and other managers are well aware of the rules.
On occasion, when the Department of Finance is brought in to investigate, we should not be confronted with threats and intimidation.
I can assure the member that there are senior officials in this government who threaten my officials on a regular basis because they think we are trying to do something to overturn decisions that they made, but that’s our job.
We’re there to make sure the rules are followed so that it’s a fair, transparent, and accountable process.
Yes, I understand clearly what you said and I understand everything and felt what you just said.
However, many deputy ministers, directors, or managers don’t seem to be following the regulations or policies.
That is why we keep hearing all these unpleasant comments.
What would happen if somebody didn’t follow any of the policies or regulations?
Through the competitive process, we have more oversight on competitions to ensure that the rules are followed.
We have less oversight on CSAs, or casual service agreements.
That’s where you hire casual employees. We’re relying quite a bit on the integrity of the individuals in the departments who are the hiring officials.
As I was answering a question earlier today, if any CSAs come to our attention over a year long, then we should absolutely seek justification from the employing department and we will investigate those.
If any MLA has any information on possible breaches of hiring for casual employees, for example, please let us know.
I’m pretty certain, on the competitive hiring process where you apply on the job, there’s a whole complicated process in terms of the job descriptions, putting the ads out, screening, and the Department of Finance participates in that.
Nonetheless, the situation is aggravated when residents are informed after the fact and there’s nothing to be done about it.
The person in question is now a permanent employee and so this breach of the rules can’t be corrected.
Many times we get misinformed about bad news, especially when we get them too late.
Let me then ask this other question. For approximately the last two years or a bit longer, the current casual hiring process has been used.
I believe it was a new policy from a year and a half ago that was implemented.
From that period to now, has the system produced better results?
With each department now conducting its own hiring of their departmental positions, has the hiring of Inuit improved?
We believe it’s getting better.
There’s more rigour and consistency in human resources.
We are providing more insight as the Department of Finance and ensuring that human resource coordinators and other officials in departments are well aware of their obligations.
People are listening and people are observing debates such as this on the television and the radio.
We direct officials to the appropriate directives in the Human Resource Manual.
I believe it’s improving. When we took on human resource functions a couple of years ago, I was under no illusion that we’re going to turn things around overnight.
It does take time for rigour and consistency to make its way through the system, but I believe it’s getting better.
When your department is aware of breaches of this hiring practice and process, either by notification or information provided by members, when the department conducts an investigation and sees that a certain department has bypassed these legal requirements applicable to them, can your department reverse their decisions or if you find a certain employee is the responsible person who broke the law, can you fire them?
Does your department have that level of authority?
Again, within our Department of Finance, we follow the rules very consistently and ensure that the competitive process is done fairly.
We feel that a lot of delays in job offers going out to individuals are because people appeal them. We ensure that everybody has their appeal rights.
When it comes to the casuals, it is very difficult for us in terms of punishing the individuals in another department.
We will advise the deputy minister of breaches and recommended punishments and it would be up to the deputy minister to consider those.
As the Department of Finance, we can’t go into another department and fire people. It’s up to the individual departments how they proceed.
Perhaps now is the proper time to enact the authority so that your department can start removing public servants who are breaching these legal requirements. I want to see your department terminate any position found to be breaking the laws.
Alternatively, does this mean this government has to start deliberating on reversing the departmental HR positions and have one Department of Human Resources with that capability and not have the departmental positions?
When you try to question the employees who make these decisions or request information, all you get is a brick wall of silence.
Perhaps if a singular position was created that is solely responsible for all human resource decisions in all departments to mitigate this breach of trust, is this something our government should be revisiting?
If there is an individual in a particular department that has seriously breached the rules, it is possible that we bring that to the attention of the officials in that department. I don’t see any reason why that person couldn’t be dismissed. We would have to consider all the legal implications that that would entail.
There is nothing to say that you couldn’t remove an employee for failing to comply with the duties of their job and the policies and directives of the Government of Nunavut.
Comptrollership. Mr. Enook.
Indeed, these are the types of situations I was referring to. I just want to ensure that the (interpretation ends) Hon. Minister (interpretation) is fully aware of the fact that I believe every MLA wants to ensure our legislation is being complied with, the existing laws we have to follow.
We wish to give you the benefit of the doubt and let you have the opportunity to put a stop to these kinds of abuses.
It is especially counterproductive when as Nunavummiut, the jobs we could have been hired for are given to outsiders who are flown in from elsewhere.
Even when I first sat as the MLA, I received correspondence outlining that this department brought in a non-resident to work in a casual position, all the way from the southern locales.
We hear of many cases of nepotism and breaches of trust by civil servants. That is deplorable.
Let me ask this other question which is based on an actual experience I went through and I believe I raised the issue in one of my questions. I just want further explanation on how a permanent government employee is required to be seconded to another position and the (interpretation ends) Hon. Minister (interpretation) is aware of this situation.
How long can secondments last where an employee is fulfilling those duties before his or her original position is declared vacant?
I can provide further background on this issue, but since I have raised this question previously, I am sure the minister is aware of the facts pertinent to this case.
I certainly appreciate Mr. Enook’s support. Under the Public Service Act which I am responsible for, myself and my officials have some broad powers or specific powers to do certain things if there is non-compliance to our hiring practices.
With respect to how long a person could be away from their job, it would depend on the particular situation.
If there is an individual who needs to be in another community for three months or six months working for another department, that could be an internal transfer assignment up to three years.
If it’s a secondment for a specific time because only they have the knowledge or information to do that job, it could be a set time.
If an individual is, say, living in Cambridge Bay and going over to Gjoa Haven for an extended period of time, I’m just using Kitikmeot communities as an example, the maximum amount of time that they could have a claim in a hotel, for example, would be 25 days and then they would have to find other alternate accommodation.
It wouldn’t be on per diems.
As regular MLAs, if we want to talk about a particular employee or if we have a concern, would it be better to go directly to your office or to a place where this person is working?
I would like to make sure we all fully understand that.
Hon. Keith Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank Mr. Enook for the opportunity to answer that question.
I would recommend that you come directly to me rather than go to the individuals in the department.
My questions will be on business plan page 28, some of my colleagues did ask, but on that very page, the third bullet regarding summer students.