EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
If I may use my discretion as the minister, how do we invest when we get an amount, for instance, $200 million? Should we be using it to develop a plan down south and invest part of that amount and use it when, in fact, it was, in my view, used to create an Ontario job creation initiative to create panels, what they call SIP panels?
They used a tremendous amount of investment, overhead, in my view. To me, if I was the minister of the day or the housing corporation, I would not have supported that kind of concept.
I would have used all the money that we have to leverage additional housing money.
Maybe we could team up with a financial institution. Now we’ve got this amount of money.
Could we double the housing that has been proposed by the arrangement between the two territorial governments? I’m giving you the broader picture.
I think we can find ways and I think the new housing corporation board will be challenged to find much more effective and cost-effective initiatives for our government, and that’s what we want to proceed with from here.
I know I may be raising a lot of questions, but I’m just giving you the difference between the style of the previous administration and the new regime that we have.
I kind of appreciate hearing what the minister is saying in the sense that I think one of the things we, as legislators, and maybe the government need to do to prove to the federal government is if we’re going to be entrusted with… . I think that’s more what I’m basing my questions around is, again, not laying blame. It’s just making sure everything is in place.
Where I feel myself personally at fault is the fact that I maybe didn’t ask enough questions in the first place when we were asking questions before, when previous ministers responsible for the Nunavut Housing Corporation before us were telling us… . I remember the quote of the day and it still rings in my ears that houses will be delivered on time and within budget. I took that at face value as this is true.
Maybe I should have probed deeper and asked more questions and just said, “What is really going on?”
If I come across sometimes, when I’m questions in a way, that I’m trying to find something to lay blame, to me, it’s to try and make sure we’re still on track.
That’s part of my job.
I think that’s what it is.
With what you’re saying in terms of the way that the minister will be running the corporation with his responsibility, my next question is: will the Nunavut Housing Corporation continue to use the SIP design for construction of units?
If I may update my colleagues here, that shop that was set up in Ontario, I think somewhere around Morrisburg, is no longer part of the arrangement with the Nunavut Housing Corporation.
That agreement is put to rest, hopefully, because we always have a bit of legal issues that are being floating around here and there, but that idea is put to rest.
It will be up to the new Nunavut Housing Corporation and the senior executive to propose what model and what type of mode should be used for building.
One of the things immediately that we probably learned from history is that it’s important to state this: that even my former colleagues in this Assembly, in this government, acquired the project that was already deeply underway because of the arrangement and the contract, particularly the design and aspects of the house, that was the responsibility of the government, the Nunavut Housing Corporation.
It was a labour-only kind of project that they had committed themselves to. Therefore, that allowed, I think, the number of difficulties, and then the previous housing corporation regime restructured, probably not wisely, the logistical parts of the whole system to a completely, again, new entity that really did not have a track record.
It all played into the whole complex situation that we were forced to address.
What we’re going to see, I think, is that the new directors, once the housing corporation is completely more at arm’s length, they will have to compile all the housing strategies that have been done, they will have to review them all and probably improve them and submit them to the government in a more respectful… .
In my view, hopefully that will happen.
I think we will see whole new options to do projects in more cost-effective ways. That will be the goal.
Again, with what the minister is saying, it sounds like part of the direction might be to move away from using the SIP designs.
That brings up another question. In terms of the infamous telehandlers that were purchased and scattered across the territory, I know that they were purchased to actually do the construction and be used for the construction of the SIP houses.
In terms of trying to find needed dollars, is there a plan to sell those or are they still going to be assets owned by the local housing authorities?
I think the concept of building houses for Nunavutmiut will continue to be very important.
I just want to state this again that I think, in the future, it will be important to probably issue… . If there is a large amount of funds that was negotiated with the federal government, we would likely prefer to have the design-build be the direct responsibility of the contractors rather than a labour-only kind of concept.
In this regard, the logistics, deployment of all the materials, order and ship, would be coordinated much more effectively, and shipping routes would likely be considered a lot more and tracked a lot more effectively.
I think we have learned from the past.
In terms of the details of the mobile equipment stuff and so on, these equipment have played a very important part of the construction during the construction season for the last three years.
Our plan is that if the local housing associations were to purchase these units from the Nunavut Housing Corporation, or they wish to sell them, that option is going to remain with the local housing associations.
Also, in oral question period, I had asked questions about the actual inventory of what stock is still out there across the territory and you had said that yes, a detailed inventory had been made.
I was wondering again today if I could try and get a dollar value assigned to that.
Again, I think one of the things, in asking questions at times, you hear so much from different people and someone will come up to you and say, “There is like $10 million worth of oil burner equipment in one community and there are six boilers in another.”
To me, there are facts and then there are rumours.
If I could get a dollar value, that might actually help me understand a bit better.
Also, if I could find out, once the houses are totally complete, will that inventory be turned over to the local housing authorities?
Hon. Tagak Curley: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A very important question and I appreciate that.
I want to assure the members that our new Vice-president of Construction, Jamie Flaherty, has done an excellent job.
One of his first tasks that he set himself to do was to do a proper inventory. He pretty much directed all the regional directors, at least the divisional managers throughout the regions, to do a proper inventory.
Quantitative inventories, in the first place, are important as the construction continues in a number of places.
It has been quantity only so far and, obviously, once the construction is tapering down, the proper detailed accounting and costs will be done on those units. In terms of who will acquire these surplus materials, if any, once the costs have been arranged, I’ll get our president to explain on that.
The material, at this point, has been secured, all the surplus materials we have in all communities, and these are stored in sea containers or at the local housing organization warehouses.
Our plan has been to identify these materials and secure them, prevent them from damage from weather and otherwise, but also to have an inventory as to what materials we do have in stock in case we have shortages on the ongoing construction.
So we have been making access to this material for completion of construction.
Once all construction is completed, materials that are remaining as surplus that are of use to our local housing organizations for their maintenance operations will be turned over to them.
We may have other materials that would be dead stock to them and take up space, so we’re not going to burden them with that and we will look at other means to dispose of that.
Thanks again for that response.
I know that some of the local housing authorities are struggling sometimes and they kind of know that there are needed materials that they could use out there, but I think they’re holding off until all the houses are constructed to make sure. Sometimes, in some of the conversations I’ve had with employees of the housing associations, it’s a frustration where they’re saying that they’re ordering in this little part and the shipping is more than the part when they know there are some out in the garage or something.
Again, I guess that’s part of the frustration, but it’s also good to understand how it’s actually playing out.
You had mentioned the sea cans and at one time, I think there were 1,000 sea cans, we were told, that are out there probably at an estimated cost of $3 million. I know that when I asked questions before, there was the option of purchasing to maybe get some money back from those, but at the same time, I think some materials and some of the sea cans were actually shipped out this sealift season.
I was wondering if I could get an update on how many sea cans are still out there and if there is a dollar value.
Mr. Elliott, I would like to remind you that you do have ample opportunity to ask these questions during question period in the House. As I stated, we’re under general comments at this time. You have the opportunity to ask questions in the House, aside from this committee meeting.
Minister Curley, if you want to respond to the question.
Hon. Tagak Curley: Thank you. (interpretation) I don’t mind answering his question.
We were expecting to hear general comments before answering questions during the page-by-page review.
If I can have Mr. Barriault respond to that question, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) Thank you.
As previously stated in the last sitting of this Assembly, the Nunavut Housing Corporation’s plan for disposal of sea cans is to first make sure that we meet our needs.
We have ongoing construction right now. Some of the ongoing construction has materials stored in these sea cans.
Surplus materials from previous construction are also stored in some sea cans.
Some of them have already been made available to local housing organizations for storage of their maintenance materials.
As construction winds down, we will have a better idea as to how many sea containers we have need for and use for. We have to look at our overall needs for storage in all communities.
We’re working on a plan for that right now and until we satisfy our needs, we’re not going to dispose of these. Once we decide to dispose of some, they will be made available publicly.
Again my questions are based around the minister’s opening comments on page 2, where he’s giving us an update about the Nunavut Housing Corporation with the Nunavut Housing Trust and the Affordable Housing Initiative.
I know, in the actual capital budget, there’s no line item for sea can purchase and whatnot, so that’s why I was asking the question in the way I was and at the time that I am.
At the end of the first paragraph on page 2, the minister was talking about the new administration and the financial controls, which is great to hear.
I know that’s one of the things that we have been talking about. I still do feel, in terms of speaking with some federal officials and whatnot, that there’s a feeling that we need to prove ourselves and continue to prove ourselves, which may be founded or unfounded.
I think what the Nunavut Housing Corporation is doing is they’re on the right track.
One of the items that we were told to help with the financial administration was sort of centralizing workers here in Iqaluit.
I was just wondering if the minister could elaborate a little more on what’s actually happening with that.
I think seven positions from Arviat were going to be relocated here and I was wondering if there was an update as to if all seven jobs have been moved here.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Elliott. (interpretation ends) I am not sure if the translation is getting through in English. This is a general comment section. We have the privilege of question period and so forth in the House.
So again, a reminder for when we get to the questions, we can perhaps expand once we get into the page by page of the Nunavut Housing Corporation Branch Summary.
I’m not attempting to stop you from this, but a reminder.
Hon. Tagak Curley: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will respond only to the federal view.
I think it’s important to address that and I appreciate the member for saying that.
I think it’s unfair for the federal government because when I alluded to the previous administration… . I’m not talking about a former minister of this government; I’m alluding to the previous government of the day before this Assembly was elected.
They set out the terms and all the program aspects of the construction of the Nunavut Housing Trust, which was continued onward by the housing corporation executive of the day.
When the Affordable Housing Initiative was announced, they had the same people who have managed and proposed how the rollout would eventually be released, and so on.
Now, since I became the minister, we have completely restructured the whole Nunavut Housing Corporation structure, not only the finance.
We have improved that and we have received support from the executive, my colleagues, that the seven positions would at least be moved from the headquarters positions in Arviat, finance positions, to the directorate here in Iqaluit.
That has been a tremendous improvement and I will have our finance corporate officer explain exactly how that is shaping up.
In terms of the federal image, image is something that I cannot control and I don’t think it’s fair.
I don’t think Nunavut Inuit should be held hostage by the federal government just because of their refusal to try and accept what steps we have made to improve the previous mistakes that the previous administration, previous ministers, and even the board that initiated the whole confusion and faulty accounting systems.
So we have changed all that, and I cannot change the views of the federal government. I don’t think it’s fair for us to continue to be associated with what happened four or five years ago, which I was not a part of.
I certainly did make the point when I was sitting out here that what they were investing in was going to result in the negative stuff, and that’s what has been going on.
I only wanted to comment on that aspect, but I’ll let Madam Kimball explain exactly the nature of the finance positions and services that she’s responsible for.
Ms. Kimball: Thank you.
The seven positions have been relocated from Arviat.
Just to clarify, a lot of those positions were vacant in Arviat for an extended period of time.
We now have hired the top four senior positions.
We’re actually in the process of screening for one of the other positions.
We have three casuals in the junior positions and as we fill from the top down, we will have those people participate in the hiring of the indeterminate positions.
So it’s well underway. We have a dedicated budget manager right now, which is a huge improvement, and that person is just dedicated to staying on top of all the construction and monitoring all of our costs. So there are significant changes in terms of our finance group.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Ms. Kimball.
On page 3 of the minister’s opening comments, the second paragraph, he is talking about working with the Quality of Life Steering Committee and working on the GN Comprehensive Long-Term Housing Strategy.
The Housing Working Group that completed the gap analysis, would it be possible to get a copy of that gap analysis for all regular members to see and view?
Hon. Tagak Curley: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the coordination with the senior officials of the government involved because social housing has an impact on a number of departments, including people who receive income support, and so on. So the advice that our officials have received from them has been quite important.
To explain further the details, I’ll have Mr. Barriault go through that.
In terms of making them public, once they have gone through our senior officials, I have no problem providing them.
Through the Quality of Life Deputy Ministers Committee, a lot of GN initiatives are being overseen and coordinated, including the Poverty Reduction Strategy, the GN Long-Term Comprehensive Housing Strategy, and the GN Homelessness Strategy.
The Nunavut Housing Corporation is the lead agency on the development of those last two strategies, but we’re ensuring to do all of the development work in harmonization and in coordination with all of the other GN initiatives, particularly with the poverty reduction.
The gap analysis was prepared through a housing working group for which there is representation from all GN departments and agencies, so we’re ensuring to cover all bases and all impacts that this strategy would have as a GN holistic approach.
The gap analysis was to identify what services are currently being provided by all government departments and agencies and to try to identify areas where there is need, but no one is currently responsible or there may be some overlapping responsibility.
There was a discussion document to take us to the next step of completing the actual strategy and it’s also a document that is being used for consultation as a tool to consult with other stakeholders besides the GN.
At this point, the gap analysis itself as a document would exist as a PowerPoint presentation. When we’re at a stage where this can be shared, we have no problems sharing that.
Mr. Elliott: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for that explanation.
From listening to everything this morning, it really seems like the Nunavut Housing Corporation is kind of back on track in terms of financial management and also working with all government departments.
Again, with the statistics that the minister gave us in his presentation, it looks like we still need a lot more houses to be able to meet the needs of our growing population.
To me, it’s nice to see that this is on track because we’re constantly asked, at least I am, what’s happening with it, what’s been done, and where it’s going.
The last question that I had was on page 3 with the first paragraph in terms of the amount of money and the decreasing allocation by the CMHC.
Is this part of what’s being discussed as well in the Quality of Life Steering Committee to try and come up with ideas to see how we’re going to be covering our O&M costs for maintenance of these houses?
It’s going to be $23 million a year. That’s a big budget and it will continue to grow as we get more houses online.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Elliott, and I note that you have run out of time.
Hon. Tagak Curley: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A very important question and quite critical too.
Certainly the information that we provided to the member is important.
To try and get more details of that, I’ll have Mr. Barriault go through some of the numbers here.
The declining federal funding towards existing social housing is a problem that is actually affecting all of Canadian jurisdictions. The Nunavut Housing Corporation is an active member of the National Housing Research Council, which is a group organized through the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation where we work with our federal, provincial, and territorial counterparts on dealing with issues such as this one, amongst other issues.
We also work with our territorial partners. We have a tri-territorial working group of presidents and senior officials.
This is also one of our topics that we work on.
As a group, territorially and nationally, we are working on documents and lobbying to the federal government for means of sustaining and ensuring viability of our existing social housing stock.
All jurisdictions are in the same boat as far as this situation is concerned. As well, we do work with other lobbying groups. Patsy Kuksuk, our vice-president of operations, sits on the national board of the Canadian Housing Renewal Agency.
So we do approach this from as many aspects as we can. It’s an ongoing concern, one that no one has found a magic solution for.
In terms of other means of mitigating these increased costs, we are getting good ideas and we are collaborating with our partners in this.
I have no more names on my list for general comments. We can now go to the page-by-page review.
I’m sorry. Mr. Enook.
I thought you were going to overlook me.
I would just like clarification from the minister. On the first page of his opening comments, it states that new staff housing units are constructed and older units are renovated in the communities.
Who decides and in what way do they determine who has the greatest need?
Is it according to the advice from the departments?
The Nunavut Housing Corporation, other agencies, and all departments are increasing their annual budgets, along with a growth in staffing, especially in the areas of education and health.
They are required to identify their needs for new units, for example, if there is a new school and there is an increase in the number of teachers.
Each department is consulted on what additional units we would have to build.
We make decisions based on these consultations. A lack of new units would be one criterion.
If there’s going to be an increase, they identify the cost of constructing each unit.
The housing corporation works with all the departments, but we don’t construct the staff housing units.
We have to make an agreement with the client department.
That’s the process we follow. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Enook (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also thank the minister for his response.
Mr. Chairman, if my question is not appropriate, you may stop me, particularly if you think it’s outside the context here.
Perhaps I could raise this question so that we will be on the same page.
I have several more questions, but I want to ask this question first. If the Minister responsible for the Nunavut Housing Corporation cannot answer, I will understand.
When the Nunavut Housing Corporation is tasked to construct new units for one of the departments, are they tasked to construct these units because there will be positions that will be opened?
I imagine that they don’t just undertake construction projects for nothing.
I imagine they have a vision, such as when a department notifies the housing corporation when they need units built for their staff.
Hon. Tagak Curley (interpretation): Mr. Chairman, I believe I responded to that question.
We said that the departments have an annual budget based on estimates where they identify capital projects prior to the construction season.
They identify the communities where the construction projects will be.
For example, as I said earlier, if there will be an increase in the number of teachers, they generally notify the Nunavut Housing Corporation.
Basically, we are treated as nothing more than a housing developer, even though that never used to be the case in the past.
Staff housing is now a major part of our mandate.
We generally don’t identify the number of units on our own. Once we are informed of the need for housing, we have to try to find the units, sometimes by leasing existing units. In a lot of cases, we don’t necessarily do construction when there are existing units.
For example, there are quite a lot of buildings in Iqaluit.
In some cases, the buildings are leased, as well as in Rankin Inlet and Cambridge Bay.
However, in the smaller communities, it’s almost impossible to lease a building. That’s why many of the units for teachers, for example, are five-plexes.
Some of us do understand the responses, but others seem to cause confusion and I regret that.
Mr. Chairman, the question I was trying to raise is kind of right on the very edge. I believe you may stop me because it’s bordering on the perimeter of what we’re discussing.