EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Mr. Chairman, my comments are not going to be long but we have some news releases here.
The Minister’s Statements here and some reports from this, from Gjoa Haven gas supplies having similar problems will make us think that somebody was not doing their work.
We have, we spend millions and millions of dollars on professional employees of the government for the purpose of serving the citizens of Nunavut whether it’s in the health services or education or supplies, petroleum supplies to the consumer.
I am surprised that we missed somewhere that we could have probably suspected something without actually finding out but suspected enough to check it out again to make sure that it was okay.
I will have some questions later.
Yes, as we move on to the questions, questioning of the Department of Public Works and Services let’s be careful when we talk about that.
Just a couple of comments to make and I know that we’ll be getting into questions after and just comments like identify some of the areas where we want to look at some questions later.
I think it is quite evident that at least two regions in Nunavut are suffering from a case of bad gas and you know, when anyone has any discomfort from bad gas, the first thing they try to do is take something to fix it.
You know, I think it’s important we try to find, the most important thing is to try and find something a way of solving the problem with the gasoline that we’re stuck with.
I think that, as the minister had indicated in his comments, disposing of the remaining gas and blending it with a new re-supply, those things aren’t going to happen until later into the summer.
The fact is that, in the meantime, we’re forced to use this bad gasoline that’s out there.
And I think that the first priority should be to find something, if there is something we can do to add to the gasoline to make it safer to use for people that are using it out there.
I think the last thing that we want is someone to be going out on the land, whether it is by snowmobile or by boat and have motor related problems with gasoline and then be stuck out there.
I think the first priority should be to try and find a solution to what we have already other than what the minister indicated in his comments if that exists.
We have a fair bit of gasoline out there, I would say with this problem.
I think another thing that we need to look at is developing, I don’t know if we have to adapt our standards, or expand them to the existing ones to look for more specific things that we need to find that are missing or that we’re finding in this gasoline that does cause these problems.
We have to specify a more specific kind of fuel that suits the needs and the circumstances here in Nunavut.
I understand that basically the bottom line for the Gjoa Haven study was that it was a summer grade gasoline and not a winter grade gasoline and that was causing the problems.
I don’t know if there were issues or things that were identified in that report that would have raised some flags of things that we should have done as a government or changed in our future processes for fuel.
I don’t know if those were done and I’ll be asking questions on that later.
Are there any specific recommendations that we saw in that report that could have impacted and changed the situation that we’re in today?
I think it’s an important thing that we also have to look at.
Another thing that we need to look at as well is the fact that everything in here so far, just refers to snowmobile testing.
We can all assume outboard motors will be the same thing and I’m not a mechanic at all but I know that outboard motors are much more temperamental than snowmobile motors when it comes to their operations and what they can handle.
So I think that’s something that we have to look at as well.
Also, the fact that it’s all motorized vehicles, what is the impact going to be on automobiles?
In Iqaluit, here, there are taxi drivers coming to me and saying they’ve been going through fuel pumps like crazy as a result of the bad gasoline.
I think we need to take a look and figure out what the extent of the damage is that this gasoline is causing to all motorized vehicles and not just snowmobiles and outboard motors, there are ATVS, all automobiles.
I talked to an individual in one of the two regions in question and he had told me that he had purchased a vehicle from Dodge and he sent a sample of the gasoline to them and was told that if he put that gasoline in his vehicle, his new truck and used it, that his warranty would be null and void.
So I think if we are getting concerns like that raised, we really have to take a look at the impact that this gasoline has not only on snowmobiles but all cars and trucks and all the other vehicles, all motorized vehicles that use this gasoline.
Not only that, the question goes even further. I’ve got a generator and if I’m using it out at my camp or something like that and I’m using this gasoline in it, it can affect that as well.
So, I think it’s not just snowmobiles and outboard motors that we have to think about; it’s every single piece of machinery that uses this gasoline.
We have to determine the impact that it has on it.
I think that’s something that has to be done because again, because we live in a very unforgiving environment and the potential for disaster is there as a result of the breakdown of any kind of this equipment under certain conditions.
So that has to be looked at as well.
The other thing is what we have to do to make sure something like this doesn’t happen again.
I think that regardless of whether we like it or not, the fact is that it did happen.
We have to deal with it now and what are we going to learn from this and how are we going to make sure that this kind of thing doesn’t happen to us again in the future.
I hate to put a price tag on what this lesson is going to cost us or whoever it is as a result of this.
I think that is not something that we should just deal with here, and okay, we’re going to figure out who’s responsible and look after those people that have blown engines in their snowmobiles. I think that’s something that we have to look a lot deeper into and a lot more carefully.
The last thing we need to do is one, two things I guess.
One is to determine where things went wrong, and I’m sure that there are some busy lawyers out there trying to figure that out right now.
But I think that’s important that we have to identify exactly where in the process things went wrong and we ended up with this gasoline that isn’t good.
Also, the other thing that we have to look at and determine is, if there is going to be any type of compensation, regardless of where it’s coming from, what kind of a process are we going to use and what kind of time frames are we going to use to look at setting up to facilitate that process.
This gasoline, if we mix it, if we blend it with the existing gasoline, does it contaminate next year’s gasoline?
And does this lead to an ongoing problem that we’re going to be facing not only this year but possibly next year and the year after.
If there’s any little bit of it left in the tanks, which there always is, every year, is it going to dilute and mix into, does it have the potential of contaminating future re-supplies of fuel?
So it’s not an easy thing that we have to look at.
I won’t pretend to have all the questions and I probably won’t even think of half the questions we need to know right now and I’m sure there are many answers that haven’t even been looked for, haven’t been found and we won’t realize what things to look for until after.
I think that it’s important, that, some of my colleagues as we take a look at this collectively, and try and resolve it and come up with the solution that will be the best for all the people across Nunavut.
According to rule 77 (1), we have ten minutes for general comments.
Rule 77 (2), at the discretion of the chair, members can make their comments to the same issue for 10 minutes, but if there were any options, members may speak more than once to a matter under discussion but not until every member wishing to speak has spoken.  I’m sure the Nunavut residents are very interested in hearing about this in regards to the bad gasoline.
So, I open the floor for questions.
So, any members may ask questions, for 10 minutes.
Even if you use up those 10 minutes, after the members have made their questions, I will allow every member to speak. So, I will open the floor for questions.
Minister for Public Works and Services, you have the floor, Mr. Kattuk.
Your comments are very interesting.
Today, we’re deliberating on the quality of gasoline and the government is very seriously considering this issue and also our Petroleum Products Division, our officials are here and our new employee.
So, I would like to introduce my officials and an individual from there and also our new employees.
He’s analysing and testing the gasoline and he’ll be coordinating that and also the comments that were made by the regular members and he knows, as I have stated in my Opening Notes, when I heard that there was bad gasoline and when I heard the concerns on the gasoline from our customers it was very important to me.
So we’re going to work very diligently to correct the situation of mediocre gasoline at the community level but we know that we live in the north, we know that we can’t change the gas overnight because we’re from the north.
We’ll have to utilize huge sums of money to correct the situation but we will consult with the people of the communities and I’m sure they will work very hard to work on behalf of them also.
If it’s not in the whole world or nationally, we’re the first territory or country to experience that kind of gasoline problem and we’re not aware if there were similar situations occurring in the other provinces but we have wanted to resolve this situation in the communities as soon as possible.
We have to resolve this bad gasoline issue or the quality of gasoline at the community level and we don’t have any, we have to look for ways how to resolve this and we have to test the gas out first in order to find out what the real problem is and only after that can we look for solutions.
The government is very concerned about the quality of gasoline and our department is working well with the government in finding solutions to the bad gasoline.
So this is my response to the general comments of the members.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Kattuk, Minister responsible for Public Works and Services.
As we are all aware that the ministers at the cabinet level are representing their communities too in regards to the quality of gasoline and they have been elected at the community level to represent them.
We understand that so the floor is open for questioning.
You have ten minutes to ask your questions.
We will wait until all of the general comments are completed.
We were full of questions but were unable to raise our hands.
My first question is…(interpretation ends)…what recommendations were contained in the preliminary report from the Alberta Research Council on the state of gasoline in the Baffin and the Kivalliq?
What were the recommendations on the preliminary report?
The report from the Alberta Research Council said that the gasoline is missing some additives but in spite of that the Council had to do further testing on the gasoline when they found that additives were missing.
So we initiated the testing at that time.
When will the complete report be tabled in the House?
The report can be tabled at any time in the House.
Perhaps we have two more days of sitting for this session.
Can the minister tell me when he will be able to table that report?
Before the session is over, I will try to table the report.
Has it been determined if any specific communities have been more heavily impacted than others in terms of the number of breakdowns or other gasoline related incidents?
In some communities they have not reported any impacts, but the communities that have reported I can respond to your question by saying that last fall when the tank farms were filled, for the communities that had left over good gas they had fewer problems.
But with the communities that had less good gas left over they experienced more impact than the other communities.
So that is according to my understanding.
So for the communities that had better left over gasoline in their tank farms experienced less impact than the communities that had less good gas when the fuel was distributed.
Can the Minister explain how many engines…what is the total number of reports of damaged engines and other gas related incidents to date?
And also did you ask the communities for reports about the damaged engines?
Some communities had written me correspondence in regards to bad gas.
And during the Question Period in the House, I have heard from various members in regards to the bad gas.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I just wanted to get some information as to the gas in the Kitikmeot.
As we know it is okay to use, but in some cases sometimes there is minor problems.
For example in Gjoa Haven, in Kugluktuk and in Cambridge Bay, the sealift…when NTCL brings in the gas, is that all the same source of gas that is re-supplied into the communities or is that from the Alberta refinery?
Is that all the same supply of gas that is being brought into those three communities?
I think that the member is asking about the Kitikmeot region.
The Kitikmeot people get some gas from Alberta.
The re-supply of gas and fuel; for example, as we know there are already problems in Gjoa Haven.
The same supply of gas that is brought in from Ottawa, if that was a problem in Gjoa Haven and it was alright, the same supply was okay in Kugluktuk.
Why is that; how did that come about?
I mean, one community has a batch of good gas and another community had problems with their gas supply because if it is from the same supply, we will have concerns in Kugluktuk as well.
Perhaps I could get my Deputy Minister to respond to that question. Ross Mrazek.
The gas which was bought in ’99 for the Kitikmeot, I don’t have the details with me; I believe it came from Alberta as well.
It was an isolated incident in Gjoa Haven when the gas was found to be basically a two level stage gas, one for summer and one for winter with very little difference in the octane numbers and a few other characteristics.
Summer gas, winter gas; it was a very isolated incident at that point and it was separated so that there would be no more problems from that point.
I understand your response as you were saying you have summer gas and you have winter gas.
I just wanted to get a clarification as to where the gas came from as you were saying that you had summer and winter grade gas.
Using Kugluktuk for example, do you bring in the same quality of gas?
You have summer gas, winter gas.
My question is, NTCL brings supplies of gas into Cambridge Bay, Gjoa Haven, Taloyoak, and Kugaaruk.
These communities get the same supply of gas.
As I was stating the supply goes into each of the communities in the Kitikmeot and it seems that when you go from one community to the next and you get into…(interpretation ends)… I am just trying to get a picture of why this happened.
I said earlier that this gas was so bad, although I didn’t like the sound of it, small amount of it, but it seems that as you go east it gets worse.
I am trying to get a picture of this year so that it won’t happen again in the future.
We have to understand that there are two different types of gas that we are talking about in the Kitikmeot region.
Because the Kitikmeot gets their gasoline from Alberta and the Baffin and Kivalliq get their gasoline from New York presently.
That’s what we are talking about.
I know that we are talking about two different supplies of gas here, and you purchase some from the States and some from Alberta.
That’s what I was saying earlier about getting the gas from the Kitikmeot, that’s one.
When you are using the petroleum from that region you go from Kugluktuk, Cambridge Bay, Taloyoak, and Kugaaruk.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think that’s how it works.
But you can correct me on that.
And the same barge carries the same gas and Gjoa Haven is getting the bad gas.
Where in that same barge, did that same gas get bad as it went further east?
That’s all I am trying to say.
I know we are talking about two different supplies of gas here.
The only one that I am talking about is the gas from the Kitikmeot.
I will get Dan to perhaps answer the question for the gasoline that is in Gjoa Haven and the other Kitikmeot communities.
In 1999, the Alberta Research Council did make some comments on the report that came out of Gjoa Haven, the report that you have tabled, there is another Research Council response to that.
From our point of view we couldn’t understand that same point that you are making.
Why would Gjoa Haven have a problem, when the same fuel was supplied to other communities nearby?
Theoretically it was the same fuel.
One of the questions that remain unanswered perhaps is at re-supply what was left in the Gjoa Haven tank.
When the new fuel came in and it was blended with what was left in the Gjoa Haven tank, the laboratory analysis afterwards looked like it was a mixture of winter gasoline and summer gasoline and it could be because the fuel that was left in the tank was old and it had lost some light and imparting the characteristics of both winter and summer gasoline to that fuel.
Yes I understand that, his response.
Okay, let’s try another way.
I know during this Gjoa Haven study I wanted to do a study on some numbers on the type of gasoline and the levels that we had in different communities in that region.
Let’s say Kugluktuk for example.
I know on the study there are some numbers that were used the type of levels that you had in Gjoa Haven and it was the same type that you were getting when you were doing the testing in Kugluktuk.
Was it the same levels?
I know it might not be already in the study but if not, are there plans to do some numbers for all the communities in Nunavut?
We know now that there is bad gasoline so what we have done is prepared options that we can follow to correct the situation.
We would not want to be in the same state in the future and we will consider our options to correct it in a proper way.
Mr. Havioyak: So okay all that is underway and I would suggest that you get all these different tests in all the communities and have it recorded so you know the numbers for each community and what level they are at.
So we know today these are the numbers, how they would change in the future if that is to be?
We don’t have the list of the gas delivery routes for the communities, so for the member’s question we don’t have the list for which route they have travelled to the communities to deliver gasoline.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Minister Kattuk.
Mr. Havioyak: I don’t know how to make myself clear so maybe I’ll just try again.
I wasn’t talking about the route when I said we need to have all the gasoline and fuel tested in all communities so you have some numbers on hand regarding how it is today and how it will be in the future.
Try to test this.
You did in Gjoa Haven, with all the numbers.
Not as detailed but at least test all the gasoline in all the Nunavut communities.
Hon. Peter Kattuk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) the fuel is being tested from the pumps, when it’s coming out from the pump, it’s been tested.
That’s how far we’ve gone at this time.
I have on my list, Mr. Puqiqnak.
I don’t have a very lengthy question, but I just want to make my questions very clear.
I have had some questions starting in 1999, when we experienced bad gasoline in Gjoa Haven.
As well, we get gasoline from Alberta, the people that live in Kitikmeot.
But it’s been two years that even after our problem was solved, now it’s happening, there’s been bad gasoline delivered from the United States here to the Baffin and Kivalliq Regions, two years after the bad gasoline in Gjoa Haven.
My question is, Nunavummiut, is it because there’s bad gasoline all over the world?
I’m not sure what the problem is.
Before 1999, we didn’t really hear about bad gasoline and starting in 1999, we’ve been experiencing bad gasoline.
Starting in Kitikmeot, the gasoline that came from Alberta was bad.
And about a year later, from the States it’s now bad again.
Perhaps we can get some information world wide from the gasoline companies of whether the experience is getting worse all the time with the gasoline.
Have you had any information from the world that those people that, gasoline exploration companies or whatever, have they been telling you that they’re starting to experience bad gas in this world?
I don’t know what the problem is.
You haven’t been giving any information on that or if you’ve heard anything like that, can we have the privilege to hear it too, because we’ve been getting bad gas recently, starting in 1999.
In regards to your question about the quality of gasoline at the international level, I can’t respond to it at this time but in the Baffin and the Keewatin areas the quality of gasoline deteriorated after we received the shipment for the Baffin and the Keewatin.
The hunters especially are the ones who are experiencing this problem and because of that we had two snowmobiles that we used as testers in the Keewatin Region to find out whether in fact the gasoline was of inferior quality.
There is an additive that is missing from the gasoline that was shipped to the Baffin and Keewatin Region.
In 2001 – 2002 that gasoline that was shipped to Nunavut affected both the Baffin and Keewatin and they all store their re-supply into huge tanks.
We have now heard that there is an additive missing in that gasoline.
And now that we have determined that there is an additive missing and again, going back to question period this morning, I mentioned this morning that we buy bulk fuel that will be used all year round.
As you said earlier, you say that we can’t drain out those tanks and put in new fuel.
Is it possible to put in the missing additives into those storage tanks in order to get it up to par?
If you didn’t understand me correctly, in response to Ms. Williams’ question, Ms. Williams was asking which of the communities, what the total numbers of reports were for damaged engines and other gas related incidents to date.
The communities with the highest reports and the communities most affected were the ones that weren’t reported.
Some of the communities have not made any submissions in regards to the number of damaged engines.
The gasoline last year was fine.
That was just for your information.
But, in regards to your other comments, we’re currently looking at ways of resolving this problem.
We don’t know exactly what we’re going to do to resolve the problem but we’ll do it as soon as we can.
That’s what our staff are currently doing at this time.
I think that it would be best if we don’t send the gasoline out to the communities and we’re looking forward to finding the solutions as soon as possible.
We’d be very thankful.
My last question is in regards to the low grade quality petroleum products that are currently in the tanks.
Who are you working with to find solutions on how to dispose of or use this product?
Are you going to be making a decision prior to the resupply ships coming in?
Before the new supply comes in, how long is it going to take to rectify the problem?
Which do you work with, the Alberta company or with the New York company?
Hon. Peter Kattuk (interpretation): We work with the Alberta company.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Kattuk. Mr. Irqittuq.
Where to start; the first question, earlier in your comments you mentioned a couple of things, the first one, this report that was done by the Alberta Research Council and you said that you were going to table this report.
When was that report completed and when did you receive it?
This is a question that was brought up earlier.
Chairperson (interpretation): Are you asking the same question again Mr. Tootoo?
Mr. Tootoo: No Mr. Chairman, I’ll try and make it very clear so that the minister can understand.
He had indicated that they have a final report or a report from the Alberta Research Council and that he would be tabling it.