EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
I wish to file responses to petitions 6 – 1 (3) and 7 – 1 (3) made by the Minister of Justice.
Bill 7 Loan Authorization Act, 2000/2001 - First Reading
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Iqaluit West, that Bill 7, Loan Authorization Act, 2000/2001 be read for the first time.
Speaker: Thank you Mr. Ng. The motion is in order, to the motion.
Bill 7 has had first reading.
Bill 8 Supplementary Appropriations Act, No. 2, 1999/2000 - First Reading
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Mr. Speaker, I move seconded by the Honourable Member for Pangnirtung, that Bill 8, Supplementary Appropriations Act, No. 2, 1999/2000 be read for the first time.
Bill 8 has had first reading.
First reading of bills. First reading of bills.
Bill 8 - Supplementary Appropriations Act, No. 2, 1999/2000 - Second Reading
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Mr. Speaker, I move seconded by the Honourable Member for Pangnirtung that Bill 10, Supplementary Appropriations Act, No. 2, 1999/2000 be read for the second time.
Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this supplementary appropriation is to provide additional funding for the Government of Nunavut for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2000.
Authority is requested for a total of 2 million 862 thousand dollars in additional appropriations.
This is made up of 2 million 580 thousand for operations & maintenance and 282 thousand for capital expenditures.
Speaker: Thank you Mr. Ng. Mr. Ng I would like to ask you to clarify the bill.
I think you said bill 10, would it be bill 8.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Yes it would, sorry Mr. Speaker.
Yes it is bill 8.
Speaker: Second reading of bills.
Item 19 Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Others Matters with Mr. Iqaqrialu in the Chair.
Chairperson (interpretation): What is the wish of the committee.
I think lunch is ready but before we go, what item shall we deal with when we return.
Mr. Akesuk (interpretation): We wish to deal with Bill 8 Supplementary Appropriation No. 2, 1999/2000 with the Minister of Finance.
Chairperson (interpretation): We will break for lunch for half an hour.
The previous agreement was for a one hour lunch break.
>>Committee recessed at 12:00 noon and resumed at 1:00 p.m.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you very much for coming back, it's one o'clock and we will resume our meeting.
We would like to thank you very much for giving us lunch this afternoon.
We'll then move on to bill number eight.
Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1999/2000.
Bill 8 Supplementary Appropriation No. 2 1999/2000 - Consideration in Committee
Chairperson (interpretation): The committee will come to order.
We will deal with Bill 8 Supplementary Appropriation No. 2 1999/2000.
Does the minister have any opening comments to make.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Mr. Chairman I'm prepared to move to the witness table.
Chairperson (interpretation): Okay then you can invite your support staff and move to the witness table.
Minister Ng, if you would introduce yourself and your support staff.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Mr. Chairman I have Mr. Victor Tootoo, Assistant Deputy Minister Department of Finance and Administration.
Bill 8 Supplementary Appropriation No.2 1999/2000 .
Any comments.
If there are no comments then we'll go clause by clause.
We'll start then with page number six of the supplementary appropriation number two.
Department Legislative Assembly - Operations and Maintenance.
Office of the Clerk - not previously authorized 32 thousand negative.
Total department 32 thousand negative.
On page number six .
If there are no comments, total department 32 thousand. Agreed. Thank you.
Finance and administration - operations and maintenance, 2 million 500 thousand any comments.
Mr. O'Brien: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the minister can give us some background and rationale for this additional expenditure that is required for finance and administration.
It is for information technology and the primary reason for the funding shortfalls and the request of the dollars is for system development and maintenance costs greater than expected during the course of this year.
Certain major projects that weren't completed prior to April 1, 1999 became an expense for this current year.
Primarily in those areas of Human Resources and payroll systems and income support systems.
Development work has started on more systems than originally anticipated and there were unanticipated items that allocated to IT budgets as well.
Things such as the network cabling, training related to the development of systems and the schedule Mr. Chairman, to implement some of the IT into some of those communities that didn't have them because of decentralization needs were accelerated and there are also demands on the system itself trying to beef up network capacity.
This was because the exceeded expectations caused additional services and equipment to be required to support that Mr. Chairman.
Mr. O'Brien any further comments.
Minister do you expect any requirement for additional funding prior to the end of this fiscal year for this particular project.
Mr. Minister if you would respond please.
Mr. Chairman we do expect that there will be some additional requirements but those requirements will be funded internally through unexpended funds and savings.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. O'Brien, anything else.
Mr Chairman, this for the most part is a very lean money bill.
Having said that does the minister expect coming before the house to further request additional dollars before this fiscal year is up.
Whether it be for this project or any other.
Mr. Minister if would you respond please.
Mr. Chairman, I would think that the likelihood would probably be positive in that respect, given that once we are out of session here a lot is going to depend on what other departments require.
If they require any internal re-allocation for whatever reasons, but our responsibility would be to report back on that if those decisions were made at the Financial Management Board level.
So right now there is nothing that I'm aware of, but that is not to say that during the normal course of business with government that there would be submissions to the Financial Management Board, decisions made and reported back to the House.
Mr. O'Brien: Thank you Mr. Chairman, just a final comment or question.
Minister given the fact that we are probably within a month of closing off the fiscal year and given the fact that it's been a number of months since we've had any type of bill like this before us would it be fair to say, and I'm looking for some form of a confirmation, that it would be fairly unlikely that you would come before this committee again looking for another supplementary appropriation prior to the end of the year unless it were an emergency.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Again Mr. Chairperson, I couldn't say whether we would or we wouldn't, it would depend on specific issues within departments if there was a specific need that a department had, or they want to reallocate funds from O&M to capital, or capital to O&M, because of circumstances that might take place.
For example, Gjoa Haven with the water situation that we talked about earlier today, and if there was some immediate need there and CG&T had some specific request.
Then we would look at that request and again if it were approved then it would come back to the House.
Mr. O'Brien, any further comments.
Your last one you said.
Minister given the fact that we are approaching the end of the year and capital budgets and so on have already been put together, for the most part in many cases preliminary briefings have taken place I would assume at this point in time that we would be in a situation or position where we would know where we are going for the next month and a half, through proper planning and consultation with other ministers and members of this side of the house.
I would find it somewhat strange if another money bill would come forward, before the end of the fiscal year unless it were an absolute emergency.
So my question to you is that with the exception of an emergency wouldn't it be highly unlikely that you would need to come before the house again for another supplementary appropriation.
Mr Chairman, it probably would be.
I would say that we probably wouldn't.
But I wouldn't put any certainty to that given that you don' know things that might happen, and like you say if it's like a special circumstance that warrants it, yes more than likely we would have to deal with that situation and report back on it.
Mr. Chairman, the minister had indicated that a portion of the funding is going to a human resource and payroll system.
I was just wondering if he could indicate as to what system the department is using right now.
Mr. Minister, if you would you clarify that point please.
The Government of Nunavut currently has ADP in Ottawa as our contractor for our payroll services.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you Mr. Chairman. The minister had indicated that this was something that didn't get completed prior to April 1.
Has ADP been the contractor that we've been using all along.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Minister. Mr. Tootoo.
Mr. Chairman, originally through the Office of the Interim Commissioner there was a joint project with the GNWT to develop Peoplesoft, which was the human resource payroll system.
We found that after April 1, it didn't seem like timelines were adequately being met as far as we were concerned and their were options being looked at that led us to move to a different contractor, the one we currently have -ADP.
That’s where we are now.
They are the ones providing the service for us.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Minister of Finance.
Mr. Chairman, I guess I'm asking there's been two different contractors being used.
Is it the same system being used, or is it a different system being used.
Mr. Chairman it is two completely different systems.
In light of the minister's comments, I take it that whatever work was being done prior to April 1 on the Peoplesoft project was basically scrapped.
I'm wondering if the minister could indicate the amount of money it cost this government to scrap that project.
Mr. Chairman, prior to March 31, 1999, 2.3 million dollars was spent on the Peoplesoft human resource payroll side of things.
Since April 1, 1999, we have put we've put 1.2 million dollars into the payroll.
Is the minister saying that there was 2.3 million dollars paid for this program that we didn't use.
And 1.2 million paid for the program that we are using right now.
Minister of Finance, your response.
Hon. Kelvin Ng : Thank you Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, no it was 2.3 million dollars prior to March 31 and 1.2 since April 1 for the Peoplesoft program.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Minister of Finance, any further comments. Mr. Tootoo.
So it was a total of 3.5 million dollars basically chucked out the window.
Surprising, maybe just in light of that what have we spent on this new program that we are using right now.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Tootoo. Minister of Finance, further response if you would like.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Thank you Mr. Chairman, I'll ask Mr. Victor Tootoo to speak on the Peoplesoft because he has a bit more background on that and from what I understand on the current ADP contract, it's significantly less than the million dollars that we put out for the Peoplesoft for this current year.
Chairperson (interpretation): Okay, go ahead Mr. Tootoo if you would like to respond.
Mr. Victor Tootoo: Thank you Mr. Chairman.
The Peoplesoft project was developed at the time the OIC was in place prior to April 1 1999.
It was a joint project with the GNWT and certain commitments were signed on to at the time through the OIC.
Decisions were made to develop a joint program that both governments could use.
Considerable work was done prior to April 1st and also the 1.2 million dollars for this current fiscal year, a large percentage of that was committed to prior to April 1st and prior to this government becoming a reality.
After reviewing the progress or more aptly, lack thereof on this system and the joint project with the GNWT, it was decided that we needed to look at other options through our department to do the payroll for the government.
During that review we decided that the project just wasn't happening fast enough basically and that there were very many deadlines that weren't being met.
A lot of the work was being done in Yellowknife and we didn't have a lot of input into the process.
We decided that the project may not happen and that it wasn't an option for our government to not have a payroll system so we looked at other options.
The one that we finally decided on, the ADP system, I don't have the exact figures with me right now but I believe it's around 200 thousand for the complete system.
As we mentioned earlier, in the Standing Committee review, there are a number of systems that we reviewed that were initially contracted in the days of the OIC that were perhaps a bit too much for our government.
We were looking for a bit more simple, cost effective way of doing business and this was one of the decisions that we made in that regard.
ADM Mr. Tootoo.
Do you have any supplementary comments.
Informatics.
Not previously authorised, 2 million dollars, special warrants 2 million 500 thousand Further comments.
Chairperson (interpretation): Not previously authorised 250 thousand.
To the negative. 250 thousand negative.
If there are no further comments, agreed?
Total department, not previously authorised.
Turning the page.
Health and Social Services, operations and maintenance, directorate.
Special warrants, 360 thousand.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): I brought up a question this morning and I would like to make further clarification on the point that I was going to make.
What is this money going to be used for.
Mr. Minister of Finance, a response.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Thank you Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Chairperson this is for providing for the implementation of a labour market supplement program for nurses.
The program is geared toward monetary incentives through an annual retention and a one time recruitment bonus.
The department of Health is proposing to operate this program for two years, with this year being the start of it.
It is similar to what the Northwest Territories has recently announced in their program.
It's our Department of Health's position that we must be able to match the competition for health care professionals, providing a similar labour market supplement that they're asking to establish with this.
Jobie, did that answer your question.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): Yes it did.
Chairperson (interpretation): Directorate, 362 thousand under special warrants, any further comments.
The minister indicated that this was to be used for providing bonuses to the nurses as the Minister of Health and Social Services had announced.
Does this cover off all of the nurses working throughout Nunavut.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: From what I understand from the Minister of Health and Social Services that is the case.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you Mr. Chairperson, when I say nurses I guess I mean all nurses including, does it include CNAs, the certified nursing assistants as well.
Mr. Minister of Finance, if you would respond please.
It is my understanding that it is specific to nurses only.
I know that there are a number of Certified Nursing Assistants that play a crucial role in some of the health facilities across Nunavut.
In Iqaluit for example there are some people, some nurses, CNAs there that have had over 20 years experience.
When these new nurses come into town or move into the hospital, it's these people that have been there for a long time that show them the ropes, show them what to do and train them when they get there.
Is there going to be something to be able to recognise the valuable role that these people play as well.
Mr. Minister of Finance if you would respond.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: I can't say definitively there would or there wouldn't be.
It would have to be sponsored by the Minister of Health.
I would say that we would have to be cautious about how we deal with this issue.
The reason why this has been put forward right now is that other jurisdictions, as you know, including our neighbours in the Northwest Territories have implemented similar labour market supplement programs specific to the nursing profession because of the national and international demand on these health care professionals.
Once you start, I mean all of our civil service is valuable.
Particularly the Health and Social Services area.
We know that there's high stress and high demands on their positions.
Once you go outside of a situation where we're trying to address national shortages, then we would have to do that to all professions and all employees and I guess that is what the collective agreement is to do is to try to address fair compensation for the civil service as a whole.
Mr. Tootoo, do you have any further questions.
Mr. Tootoo: I understand what you're saying.
It could be a collective bargaining issue but looking at it, a number of these people live in my constituency and have contacted me about it.
They do the same work that the nurses do in the hospital and yet, you know they've been there for years and these other nurses that come in, they get a nice signing bonus.
They get a longevity bonus, they’ve been there for a year, they get another bonus.
These people have been there for years and they don't get any kind of bonus or recognition for the input and the value that they have.
Are there any plans of looking at trying to rectify this.
Maybe it's been something that has been overlooked in the haste of getting the whole package put together and I'm just wondering if the minister could indicate any plans at looking to developing something to rectify this.
Mr. Minister of Finance.
I don't dispute the value of those professionals.
I can't speak on behalf of the Minister of Health and Social Services.
I'm sponsoring the total Supplementary Appropriation Bill on behalf of the government.
Maybe the Minister of Health might have some additional input or issues surrounding this that he might want to address in response to this question.
Minister of Health and Social Services, did you want to make a comment on this issue.
Hon. Ed Picco: Mr. Chairman, the nursing shortage that we're presently seeing in Nunavut is not unique, as the Minister of Finance has said.
Indeed we're seeing it all across Canada and in North America.
The Labour Market Supplement was brought forward to address a monetary issue that we have seen other jurisdictions pay in a supplement.
The market rate supplement is one of the terms of the collective agreement and is there to address nursing shortages or professional shortages.
Strict interpretation of that agreement, of the MOU, indicates to us that nurses fall within that category and therefore the market rate supplement for nurses.
It does not however cover off the certified nursing assistants.
I appreciate the member bringing forward this issue.
I've had several discussions with the certified nursing assistants.
Indeed there are three, Mr. Chairperson, working at the Baffin Regional Health and Social Services Hospital in Iqaluit who should have probably been covered off because of their length of service and everything.
But the strict interpretation of the MOU does not allow for that.
As the Minister of Health and Social Services, I have directed my staff to look into having options that may be available to us to look into that need. I agree with the member that those people are there on the ground and in many cases actually orient the nurses that are coming in because they have been there for such a long time.
So we're aware of it and there is a recognition of those services.
You mentioned that you were going to respond very briefly to the question, but Mr. Tootoo do you have any other questions.
The Minister of Health and Social Services indicated that due to a strict interpretation of the MOU, maybe directing this to the Minister of Finance, and also the Minister of Human Resources, that this government's approach to hiring, one of the things that it has said is that it wants to incorporate one's ability to do the job and not so much whether they have the papers to do so.
I've heard it on a number of occasions in the past that that's what is wanted to be looked at.
If it's just a matter of maybe incorporating a view like that based on the longevity of service that basically gives them that same qualification that would enable them to become eligible for the bonus, I'm wondering Mr. Chairman, if the minister would be willing to take a look at that type of an approach.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you Mr. Tootoo. Minister responsible for Finance would you respond to the question.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: I can commit to trying to work with my colleague, the Minister of Health because as you know on a specific issue, it's a regulated profession because of the health care profession and there are some regulatory issues surrounding certification, national standards and guidelines and that type of thing.
I'm sure the Minister of Health is aware of this so we can take a look and see what could possibly looked at in that area.
Mr. O'Brien: Minister in reference to this amount of 362 thousand, firstly I support this particular proposal but I can't help but, and I stand to be corrected, this was not done through a negotiated process.
Have we not opened the door for other professions to come to us looking for the same benefits that somebody in another jurisdiction received whether it be teachers or other groups that work within the government system.
Are you at all concerned that we have opened the door for an onslaught of additional costs that we may not have the money to cover.
Mr. Minister for finance.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: The member raised a good point.
Certainly we are concerned.
We won't want to be setting any precedents.
I don't think that we are doing so in this case given that it is a national shortage.
There are other jurisdictions that have had a similar experience.
Chairperson: I just want to remind you that you are only dealing solely with this bill and Mr. O’Brien do you have any additional questions on this item.
Mr. O’Brien: Mr. Chairman, the amount of 362 thousand that we are now looking at is part of the supplementary appropriation.
I am curious as to why this amount is not going to be covered off in the 20 million that you referred to in reference to the deficit the three health boards are going to come forward with.
Is there any reason why it wasn’t covered off in that as opposed to doing it through the appropriation here.
Mr. Minister for Finance.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Mr. Chairman, this specific program that the Department of Health and Social Services is setting up, it doesn’t impact on the Health and Social Services Board situation because those right now are separate entities under our current structure until April 1.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you sir.
Mr. O’Brien, do you have other questions.
Mr. O’Brien: I am not quite sure if that answered my question but to follow up on it, are you saying that the health boards are not directly related to this additional cost or this package that is being offered.
In its present situation, the health board has basically full control over what and how health services are being delivered in the various regions, so I would think that they would be directly responsible and involved in this particular bill.
Chairperson (interpretation): Mr. O’Brien I would like to remind you that when you are asking these questions, if you would direct your questions to the Chairperson.
Mr. Minister of Finance, do you want to respond to the question.
Hon. Kelvin Ng: Yes, maybe I will defer to the Minister of Health since it is his program.
Minister of Health and Social Services do you want to respond to the question.
Mr. Picco: Thank you Mr. Chairman.
Mr. O’Brien brings about a very interesting question and I will try to keep this response shorter for you Mr. Chairman.
The original budget appropriated by this Assembly on April 1, in the last budget, did not include the Labour Market Supplement therefore it was not in the budget of the Department of Health and Social Services.