EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
I guess what my colleague was pointing out, the NNI Policy, in order to qualify under that, you have to be at least 51 percent Inuit owned.
We know that, by the looks of it, NorTerra isn’t and Canadian North isn’t, they are 50 percent Nunavut Inuit owned.
I’m just wondering because I had a concern and I know what that policy is meant, like I said earlier, to try and keep the benefits of business in Nunavut for Nunavummiut.
I know everybody else will know as a fact that Nunasi Corporation’s headquarters are in Yellowknife.
I’m just wondering if there’s a different way of differentiating in there, even though it may be a Nunavut firm, qualified by the 51 percent Inuit ownership, if there’s an additional requirement for being a Nunavut-based firm as well.
Mr. McCullock: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Tootoo, for that question.
The way we apply the NNI Policy in the addendum that explains how it was done, in order to determine what the bid adjustments would be, the question in summary was: tell us the amount of money that you spend in employing Inuit employees and tell us how many Inuit employees you have as a percentage of the total of your employment.
So the only points that were applied and the only credits that they got for Inuit employment and for the NNI was where they could prove to us and show us the dollars spent and the payroll employing beneficiaries.
In the section for Nunavut businesses, the question was about the detail of it. They had to fill out and “show us the dollar values and the money you are spending with Nunavut registered and NTI registered companies and what percentage of those dollars is it of the total.”
We asked for the total dollars, the actual amount of money spent, names of the companies that they’re spending them with, and we were quite thorough when asking so that we could determine, in fact, what the Inuit content was, so that we could ensure that it just wasn’t somebody applying under a name. We wanted to make sure we knew what impact was going to be the Inuit content. Whether it is employment and doing business in Nunavut, we made sure that we knew exactly where the money was being spent.
I think that was a pretty thorough way of looking at it but still, the fact that Nunasi was an Inuit owned firm on the NNI Registry, just that fact alone, gives them an additional credit, if you want to call it that, for a bid adjustment.
Mr. McCullock: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for the question.
In the NNI Policy, there’s a difference in the way the bid adjustments are applied when buying goods versus buying a mixed goods and services contract. Where it’s a mixed goods and services contract, which is what we were purchasing for medical travel, the NNI application that we sent out in the addendum specifically showed the respondents how the bid adjustments would be applied.
The fact that Nunasi is 51 percent owned by the Inuit, it was still most important that we knew exactly how many Inuit employees there were, how many they were employing, and what was that as a percentage of their payroll. So the fact that they’re just an Inuit company when we’re buying goods and when we’re buying services does not necessarily, in itself, give them a bid adjustment.
They need to tell us how many Inuit employees they’ve got, how much are they spending on employing beneficiaries, and how much money are they spending with Nunavut and with NTI registered companies.
Mr. Tootoo: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. McCullock, for that response.
Did Nunasi Corporation get additional offset, or credit, or adjustment on their bid just for the simple fact that they’re on the NNI Registry and that they are listed as at least a 51 percent Inuit owned company?
That was just my question: did they get an additional adjustment as a result of that?
Hon. Levinia Brown: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation) The answer to the member’s question is yes. (interpretation ends) Thank you.
Thank you for clarifying that. Everybody knows and it was pointed out here, it is.
You say that instead of just applying under a name, in this case, just by using Nunasi Corporation, they did apply under a name because they’re not the owners of Canadian North and they’re not the owners of NorTerra.
So I guess when I go back and look at some of the other contracts that have been let in the past, if you look at the medevac contract for example, it was another one there that they could say, “We gave it to an Inuit owned company,” but that company is basically subcontracting all of the work to non-Nunavut firms, a firm based in Calgary and a firm based out of Montreal.
To me, that kind of defeats the purpose of the policy and it’s like a loophole that’s there.
In a lot of cases, even here, they’ve got it done by name. They knew individually or separately that NorTerra or Canadian North wouldn’t qualify for that additional adjustment, so they used Nunasi Corporation, under that name, to put their bid in and they’re just subbing it out to non-Inuit firms.
Now, I understand what you said about how you looked at all of that, but I think that’s just the surface of a bigger issue.
I understand that the policy is being reviewed right now. We see it is something that is being taken advantage of.
I know in the one that I mentioned earlier, there was an Inuit owned business that had a significant investment to be based here that didn’t get any of the work because they went to another Inuit owned firm that’s utilizing southern firms. Well, of course, their bid is going to be cheaper, they don’t have the overhead and they haven’t made that commitment to invest in Nunavut, which is what this policy is supposed to try and foster and take into account.
Maybe if I could get a commitment from the minister that that’s something that they will try.
I know it’s not an easy thing in the way that they evaluate it; Mr. McCullock said they evaluated some of the stuff in here as a good move forward to address some of that issue, but that issue is still out there and there are a lot of fronts, if you want to call them that, that are being used and taken advantage of by southern firms. They’re Inuit owned businesses on paper, but don’t really have anything set up, maybe a little office or something like that, that are utilizing southern-based companies.
Can there be a way to tighten that up or look at it to try and make sure that this policy is actually doing what it’s supposed to be doing and that’s getting Inuit owned businesses that Nunavut is their home, that Nunavut is their headquarters, and that Nunavut is where they have made their investment?
And some of them are pretty significant investments that are given an edge, and that’s what it’s supposed to be used for.
I think this is kind of a loophole that’s there. I’m just wondering if I could get a commitment if that loophole will be tightened up.
The comments from the committee are quite well put.
As well, I have just been informed by the Deputy Minister of the Department of Health and Social Services that there’s now a Health Committee that will oversee the review and that they have already initiated this review.
Further, with respect to the comments by Mr. Tootoo, I will ensure that they are passed along to the Department of Transportation.
In addition to that, I will ask Mr. McCullock to address some of the points raised in the member’s comments.
We have been working on this NNI application paper that we could put out so that we could show to vendors how we’re going to be applying the NNI Policy, not just for this RFP but for other RFPs.
It had been started long before this RFP had gone out and in fact, in this case, Nunasi did not receive any additional points because they applied under the name. The points that were applied were clearly based on the dollars that they said they would spend and the number of Inuit that they would employ.
Without having a chalkboard or a whiteboard to go into the mass of it, I certainly would invite and would love to bring forward at some point that NNI amendment that we had put out so that people could actually take a look at it.
I think perhaps it may even have been circulated already here.
It’s part of the RFP, it’s a detailed document, it’s got a lot of math in it, there’s nothing simple about it. We were, in fact, trying to address those loophole issues that you speak of because we realized that they exist.
This amendment, an addendum document that we had put out was vetted through and we worked on it with NTI and with the NNI Secretariat.
So, in fact, the points were applied only as per that addendum.
I know I only have nine seconds left now.
I could ask a lot more questions. There is one that I wanted to follow up on and it is something that was mentioned last week. I know Mr. McCullock clarified for all of us what the perks were that were looked at and I know that there were a number of them that were offered by the contractors.
He referred to additional Inuit employment offered by the airlines, money being spent in Nunavut and Inuit companies, as well as other benefits, such as a scholarship program for training of nurses and the expansion of the Pivut Fare.
I’m just wondering how and if the government is ensuring that the airlines are fulfilling their commitments in these additional areas.
I will have Mr. McCullock answer that question.
Mr. McCullock: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. That’s a very excellent question.
That’s a function of contract management, the Department of Health will be managing this contract through its lifecycle and they will be tracking these things to ensure the deliverables are correct.
I appreciate your Ruling on the question, at least the Point of Order that was raised.
I thank you for clarifying that and I appreciate that.
Mr. Chairman, I was appalled the other day, on Friday, that the evaluation of the contract and the criteria that were established really only applied to the medical contracts, and that was it.
Even though the Assembly had advised the government that they should take into consideration the possible economic impacts on carriers when awarding this contract, I’m surprised that the Health department officials did not take the advice that was given to them last April.
Why did the minister and your officials feel that almost half a million dollars worth of contract awarding into the airline industry will not have an economic impact on regions?
What makes you conclude that it will not have an economic impact?
Now, you will say, “I didn’t say that,” but a representative did say, and I believe it was Mr. McCullock, that this was applied only to the medical contract.
Why was the advice given by this Assembly not taken into consideration due to the fact that First Air has indicated that they will now be suspending their service, they did as of yesterday, for passengers from Winnipeg to and from Rankin Inlet?
I know that when the RFP document was put together and when we had discussed how we would go forward with the approach to the medical travel contract, certainly, it was brought to our attention and we certainly knew that it was of significant value and that potentially, it could have a large effect on the airline industry.
In fact, we made this statement at the bidders’ conference that we had and it was talked about that, in fact, it was important that we knew that this was a big contract and that it was important to everybody.
That’s one of the reasons in the RFP document that talked about apportioning the market share so that everybody could have a piece of it.
When we were writing the document up and when we were doing the evaluations, this was very much present as far as our thought process; we knew that it was important.
However, again, as the evaluation committee, where we have an RFP document that comes in to us, if it’s not complete and if there are major components missing, our hands are slightly tied in case law as to what we can do to award pieces of the market place.
And in a large way, this happened with this RFP document.
I know it was made quite clear, with respect to the NNI Policy, how it’s evaluated on the proposed tenders that were issued.
The reason for my comment the other day that I feel that the tender, as issued, was flawed is mainly because it did not ask specifically the operating companies to be the primary proponents of the bids in responding to the tender.
I believe they were so wide open that now, the minister and her officials may be quite satisfied with the service in the Kivalliq.
But I could tell you, listening to my colleague on my right the other day, he said that now, a very ill patient from his region will have to fly about six hours to and from Baker Lake to get to Winnipeg or to Churchill because of the milk run system.
Now, the tender that was issued may look quite good.
It met your requirements because the jet service is now cancelled.
You did not take into consideration the type of aircraft that they were going to use.
We’re now back to a 20-year-ago system - turbo props and all of these small little planes, indecent washroom facilities, and so on.
You may be very satisfied, but I can tell you that Kivallirmiut are very upset and you’re telling me that we will have an opportunity to review this contract one year from the date it was issued.
Don’t you think you should be reviewing it now and see if you can adjust it?
Mr. McCullock.  Mr. McCullock: Thank you very much for the question.
I certainly appreciate the concern that has been raised.
I think that part of the concern needs to be addressed.
I know that there was a review done again this year of the Transportation Strategy and I know that certainly the airline is a big part of that.
I think that the Transportation Strategy itself and some of those issues that are addressed in it, which is part of the ED&T, or Economic Development and Transportation, and their strategy, I know that they are the people that are concerned with this type of development in the marketplace.
I do know that if the marketplace is found, that if there is enough traffic, that Canadian North is looking at that market and they are trying to determine if there is enough economic justification to move into that market.
I know that they are looking into that now.
I can’t tell you if or ever they will move in there, but I know that it is being looked at.
In view of the three-year term of these contracts that were issued prior to April 1, 2008, it is really not comforting to Kivallirmiut that the proponents… I suppose there were three partnerships in my riding that formed a partner, three or four partnership deals that were awarded the contract.
But the amazing thing about it is the one that has been given an operating air service, to be specific Calm Air, is not mentioned as one of the proponents and yet, Canadian North was given 65 percent of that service to carry passengers from the Kivalliq region to and from Manitoba.
Canadian North doesn’t even operate one single airline.
How is it possible that this airline, that is so-called providing so many jobs and whatnot, is benefiting from all of this without even putting a single investment into the service?
Mr. Campbell (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) The department is certainly in a very tough situation. As a department, we’re mandated to deliver a health care system and try and keep people healthy in Nunavut.
We certainly don’t take that responsibility lightly and we will try our best as a department to make sure we have and transport people to and from their appointments in either Churchill, or Winnipeg, or Kivalliq, and Ottawa and points south, and the rest of the territory.
Several times, we have made interventions here to suggest that the contracts, the bidders, whoever, the proponents, that their proposals into the system are all evaluated equally when it comes to providing the service in the Kivalliq, in the Kitikmeot, and in the Baffin.
We were instructed, as a department, to try and reduce our medical travel costs as well by this Assembly. We are trying our best to try and meet that direction that we have been provided through this department.
Issuing out this public Request for Proposals was one way to provide a bit of an opportunity for these businesses to provide some proposals for the government to say that they would provide this to us at an economic rate for the government.
Overall, we’re trying to reduce the costs of this department for providing that service. We’re estimating that we would be saving about $4 million per year on this contract if everything works according to what we have initiated. On average, there has been a decrease of 12 percent to 16 percent in ticket prices.
I think that’s a good thing for Nunavummiut to see that kind of benefit in their wallet.
So I don’t know what else the department can do to make the process fair for all of the proponents that have responded.
All I can say is, as Mr. McCullock and the minister have indicated, that we tried to treat everybody as fair and equally as possible.
I appreciate that. I hope the advice that the Assembly provided is important to the ministers and officials because we did take the issue seriously prior to the awarding of the contracts, but they were not considered nor part of any essential consideration needed.
As the contracts were awarded to a couple of major airlines, there are three or four of them at least, including the smaller one, may look good and may have a positive indication with respect to reducing costs, it doesn’t mean that they are providing the best service to the region.
Not having a jet service from here to Montreal would be a catastrophe, or from points further up north, it would be terrible. So to me, in the Kivalliq, it’s a major disaster there.
And I read many of the perks that Mr. McCullock indicated. There are a number of points, Inuit will be hired and this sort of thing, but I think they were fooling you with their proposals. We have not yet seen a single increase in hiring of Inuit.
As a matter of fact, Inuit working in one of the operating companies had been willing to get more training for passenger service and other essential systems of that airline. They have not been able to give any Inuit first training or extra training but it applies to non-Inuit, so that’s how it’s happening.
I also read your proposal that said that the announcements of the services must be in Inuktitut. That has not happened. Why do you allow these things to be ignored?
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Curley. Minister Brown.
Just to clarify, we are in no way ignoring any services or any language on the airplane. I will give direction to the staff to make sure that was happening because what was spelled out in the contract is that they have to follow through with it.
It’s vitally important that this government is satisfied with the contract and it’s going on six months now come this October, and I will ask for a review because I’m curious, too, now as to how things are running to see if they are, in fact, doing what was asked of them on April 1, 2008.
So that direction will be given strongly and I’m not taking any of these lightly.
Mr. Chairman, I was appreciative of my colleague’s question. With respect to the application of the NNI point system, as they exist, I know a bit about those things because I have worked with Alex Campbell as well as many of the other officials in establishing those guidelines, but promise is not part of them.
It has to be actually related to the specific nature of the task of the work, whether it will be a requirement for Inuit to work at those points. You don’t award points based on how many jobs we may create kind of thing, that’s not in the NNI guidelines.
I’m also concerned, Mr. Chairman, with respect to not only the elimination of First Air from the regional system, a major service to the economy of Kivalliq and as well, the medical people.
This summer, Kivallirmiut complained that, for instance, Calm Air, now a major carrier in Kivalliq, had discontinued Aeroplan service for all the communities.
Now, you talk about perks that you ask: what are they going to provide? Travel is very expensive in Nunavut; there is no alternative travel for social occasions as well as visiting friends. Aeroplan points have played a major role and contributed greatly to people who wish to visit and include some of their kids when they go on holidays.
Now, this is what’s happening: Calm Air discontinued their service and yet, you’re saying they’re doing such a great job for the Kivalliq region.
Why not include part of their perks as to what they are?
I would like to ask the minister if she would look into that and ensure alternative travel points are continued because frequent flyer points are important.
If it’s indeed within my portfolio, I kind of think it’s under Economic Development, I certainly can give direction to my senior staff to look into that and to make a push that it comes back from Calm Air. I agree with the member because I live in Nunavut too and I know it’s a benefit to Nunavummiut to have those Airmiles. I will look into that and I commit to that.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. So that the minister will have the latest information, one of the concerns raised by Kivallirmiut, where they stated in Kivalliq News on August 20 and as a matter of fact, the writer indicated that Kivallirmiut looking to book their Calm Air flights using Aeroplan last week were surprised to learn the frequent flyer program was off the hook. An individual had to incur an additional $1,500 to try and get to points down south, so that’s why I’m raising this point.
It doesn’t come from me specifically or out of the air.
Mr. Chairman, my last point is: will the minister at least give us more assurances that this active review, as you said you will deal with some of the issues that I raised, will also apply to the overall performance of the contract within the Kivalliq region?
Hon. Levinia Brown (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The government does a periodic review for these matters. I believe that I stated that the first six months of this contract have passed.
Next month, there will be a review done and if there’s a need to include the other ministers and their deputies, we will work together fully to review this matter and resolve it.
Further, I agree with the member’s question and the issue he raised.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Brown. (interpretation ends) I will allow you, Mr. Arvaluk.
Mr. Arvaluk (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask more questions. I believe you informed me that I would be allowed to ask questions once all of the others are completed and I’m the only one standing in the open.
You are a darned good chairman indeed.
I would like to make a supplementary question to my colleague sitting on my right with regards to the NNI Policy.
He was alluding to the fact that the NNI Policy doesn’t have any guidelines for pitches offered by proponents competing for contracts.
Did you believe that Canadian North operates out of the Keewatin?
We are all aware that they don’t have any planes operating out of that region, there’s no Canadian North service originating from there. It just lands from Yellowknife to Rankin Inlet and then keeps going to Iqaluit, and I don’t believe it goes to Winnipeg.
How did you award a contract to an airline that doesn’t even operate in the Keewatin?
Somebody stated earlier that it was given to Calm Air. I doubt that this airline was even bidding on the contract and they were tasked to undertake these flights to fulfill the contract.
Did you believe, as a government, that you would give the contract to Nunasi and that Canadian North would start operating out of Rankin Inlet and provide jet service to Winnipeg?
The RFP was responded to by... I don’t know, but there were partnerships and Calm Air responded in partnership with Canadian North.
In fact, Calm Air responded on their own and they also responded in partnership with Canadian North.
It wasn’t a condition of the RFP or of the contract that they had to have a home base or they had to have a head office in a certain geographical area.