EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Honourable Leona Aglukkaq, Honourable Olayuk Akesuk, Mr. David Alagalak, Mr. James Arreak, Honourable Levi Barnabas, Honourable Levinia Brown, Mr. Tagak Curley, Mr. Peter Kattuk, Honourable Peter Kilabuk, Mr. Steve Mapsalak, Honourable Patterk Netser, Honourable Paul Okalik, Mr. Keith Peterson, Honourable Edward Picco, Honourable David Simailak, Honourable Louis Tapardjuk, Mr. Hunter Tootoo.
Speaker (interpretation): Good morning, Premier, Ministers, Members, and our visitors in the Gallery.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker and good morning.
Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Rule 18(1), I seek unanimous consent of the House to proceed directly to Item 19 on the Orders of the Day.
The member is seeking unanimous consent to proceed directly to Item 19.
We will proceed to Item 19.
Bills 22, 23, 24, and 25. (interpretation ends) In accordance with the authority provided to me by Motion 4 – 2(4), the Committee of the Whole will stay in session until it reports itself out.
(interpretation) Members, I ask that you remain in your seats and Mr. Arreak will be the Chair of Committee of the Whole.
Chairman (Mr. Arreak)(interpretation): I would like to call the committee meeting to order. (interpretation ends) In Committee of the Whole, we have the following items to deal with: Bills 22, 23, 24, and 25.
We wish to continue with Bill 23 and return to the Department of Health and Social Services.
Following the completion of Bill 23, we will then proceed to review Bills 22, 24, and 25.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Kattuk. (interpretation ends) Does the committee agree we deal with Health and Social Services?
Chairman: Minister of Health, (interpretation) would you like to have your witnesses with you at the witness table?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq (interpretation): Good morning. (interpretation ends) To my left is Alex Campbell, the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, and to my right is Raj Downe, the Assistant Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister. Welcome to the Chamber. We were on page H-7 in the Main Estimates of the Department of Health and Social Services.
Committee Motion 013 – 2(4): Addition of $1,000,000 to Health and Social Services 2008-09 Main Estimates (Tapardjuk)
While we’re here, I move that $1 million be added to the 2008-09 Main Estimates of the Department of Health and Social Services 2008-09 under Treatment Branch, Mr. Chairman.
The member would like to move that $1 million be added to the 2008-09 Main Estimates of the Department of Health and Social Services. (interpretation ends) To the motion.
I think that it’s good that they’re putting an extra $1 million in there. However, I still have concerns regarding the amount.
Now, we have before us a Supplementary Appropriation Bill that’s looking at putting another close to $4.5 million in for medical travel, which would bring the revised amounts for 2007-08 up to about $49 million.
With this extra $1 million, it only brings the medical travel amount up to a little over $44 million.
So I’m just wondering whether it’s sufficient or not.
I know the minister, in speaking to the motion to defer the department, had indicated that the best numbers that they could go with is what they actually spent the year before and here we’re seeing it’s still about $2 million or $3 million less than what they actually spent in this fiscal year.
So I would like maybe the sponsoring minister, the Minister of Finance, or the Health Minister to speak to the motion and explain how they only came up with $1 million.
Total Operations and Maintenance, to be Voted. $138,236,000.
The minister earlier indicated, I believe it was last week, that she has pretty much responded to the tender that was put out for medical travel contracts and the RPF that was issued, RFP #2007-52 Medical Travel on Scheduled Airlines in the Territory of Nunavut’s Kitikmeot, Kivalliq and Baffin regions.
I think there was some information that was provided to the Committee of the Whole for the Baffin region, but the minister, in her reply to me some time last week, indicated that the Kivalliq was one region that did not have a medical travel contract with the airlines.
I wonder if she is prepared to indicate to the House now exactly what the result of this tender that was released some time last fall is and the closing date for that time was December 7; I believe you issued it on October 30, 2007.
So my question to the minister is: is she prepared to announce to the House who is awarded with the medical travel contract in the Kivalliq region?
The member is correct; when I did state that there was no contract in place in the previous years, there was no contract in the Kivalliq region.
In terms of where we are at with the process, from what I understand from CG&S, we are waiting for the signed copies of the contracts to come back from the airlines. That’s where we are at right now.
So the RFP process, from what I understand, in following the procurement procedure process, is still open until those signed contracts are returned from the airlines.
In view of the fact, Mr. Chairman, that there can be quite a tremendous economic impact to the regions, once all the reviews and more information are obtained from those airlines that are participating in the bidding process, or responding to the tender or the RFP, will the minister assure this House that whatever happens that she will not award the contract to a single carrier?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Mr. Chairman, the whole process of the RFP process has taken place and once all that is finalized, I will gladly brief the members on the decisions.
It is not final at this point in time for me to make comments but they’re respecting the process that’s in place for tendering contracts.
I can’t speak to the details of it but I would be happy to release the information once everything is finalized and the RFP process is closed.
Mr. Chairman, it would be useful to have that information but that is not what I’m asking.
I’m asking the minister responsible for signing the new medical travel contract with the airline from the Kivalliq region to Manitoba.
I’m asking the minister or her colleagues that they will not award the contract to a single carrier.
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Again, Mr. Chairman, for the record, there is a process that’s in place for the Request for Proposal process. Each proposal is evaluated on the basis of each merit and decisions are based on that. Once that information is available, I will announce the airlines that have been awarded the contract and it is not one airline for Nunavut.
Mr. Curley: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Transportation indicated and stated to the House more than once here that the government is in support of the competition.
Does that also apply to the medical travel contracts?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: The medical travel contract is a government program, so yes.
So whatever happens in the Kivalliq region, there will be a competition, that the medical travel contract will likely be split amongst the airlines in order to ensure the competition and have less economic impact on flights to the region?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Again, Mr. Chairman, when the contracts are finalized, I will be prepared to release the information to discuss the details of it.
At this point in time, I can’t release that information. So once they’re finalized, I will be happy to discuss the issues with him.
Whatever happens, if the medical travel contract is not split among the more dominant carrier as well as the smaller one, there could be a very serious negative economic impact.
So is the minister saying to this committee that she will not negatively impact the air travel services as a result of the contract being issued in the Kivalliq?
Is the minister prepared to confirm that to the committee?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Mr. Chairman, what I have been saying here is that once the contracts are finalized, I will be prepared to release the information.
I cannot answer the member’s questions until those processes are complete.
I welcome that information but it’s still unrelated to what I’m saying.
There could be a serious air travel disruption if the contract is not split and therefore, I’m trying to get some commitment from the minister as it may be too late for this committee or for the MLAs impacted after the fact.
So I’m trying to get some assurance from the minister that whatever happens, it will improve the air service in the Kivalliq because medical travel is a major component of successful air services in the region.
So is the minister saying to us that she will not unfairly impact the current air travel in Kivalliq?
According to our Rules, we must not pose hypothetical questions in Committee of the Whole.
It’s at your discretion to respond.
What I have been saying, in response to the member’s question, is that once the RFP process is complete, I will be prepared to share the information with the member as it relates to medical travel contracts for the Nunavut territory.
As a government, we said that we encourage competition. We use the guiding principles of our government to ensure that we use a fair process for allocating the contract through the RFP process and we will be announcing the results of the RFP process when the contracts have been signed and received by the Department of CG&S.
I know it’s difficult sometimes, Mr. Chairman, to get a clear understanding of what the policy of the government is, even though the Minister of Transportation said that they believe in fair competition in Nunavut.
When it’s actually applied with some of the contracts that each department has, that particular direction or goal is normally not fully realized.
I’m trying to get a clear commitment from the minister that competition will continue to exist in the Kivalliq region as a result of this one tender, which is a major one and there are no other contracts like this one within the government.
So how long will it take to actually sign this medical contract for the Kivalliq region?
From what I understand from CG&S, the contracts have been couriered to the airlines and we have not received the signed copies back from them.
Hopefully, by next week, we will have received those contracts.
I need clarification from the minister.
Did she indicate that the contract documents have been forwarded to more than one airline?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Again, the RFP process is for the Nunavut territory.
The contracts have been distributed to the airlines for the medical travel contract for the Nunavut territory and we’re waiting for those to come back before we can announce them.
Mr. Curley: I appreciate the clarification.
I think the minister indicated earlier that the contract documents have been forwarded to them.
Did I understand her correctly?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Again, the contract processing is still open for the Nunavut territory and from what I understand from CG&S, they have been sent and we’re waiting for the signed copies to come back.
Mr. Curley: I understand from your response to my earlier question of clarification that contract documents have been forwarded to them.
Have you received one or more signed contracts back?
As they likely will not sign all of them in one day, have you received at least one or two?
I understand the member with what he’s getting at here but we have not received anything, which is why we cannot speak to that RFP process. It’s open until the paperwork has been signed is what I have been saying and I’m waiting to hear back from CG&S the confirmation that they have received. So once that information is processed and finalized, I will be notified and then I will be happy to announce the information to the member.
As it is right now, the RFP process is in place and we’re following the procedures of the contracting procedures that we follow and respecting that, the RFP process is still open until we receive the signed contracts. So that’s where it’s at, Mr. Chairman, I believe I have answered the member’s question more than once.
Yes, that’s useful to understand.
I’m not 100 percent sure whether that RFP is still open because the closing date, as far as I have it, it says October 30, 2007.
The evaluation may be taking a lot longer than that, and so on, and I believe that’s what is happening, and the government has offered its service requirements to a number of airlines.
My next question is: how many airlines responded to the Kivalliq RFP when it was issued in October?
And actually, they did close on December 7, 2007.
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: I believe that’s a question for the CG&S Department that manages the contracting procedures.
The RFP closed on December 7, 2007 but I don’t seem to see how many had applied.
Mr. Curley: Mr. Chairman, I’ll rephrase my question.
Which airlines responded to the RFP #2007-52 which closed on December 7?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Mr. Chairman, those questions should be directed to the department responsible for the procurement process and that’s Minister Brown. Thank you.
According to my briefing notes, I don’t have that information; I just have the information on the procurement on the medical travel for RFP and the contract process.
That’s what it speaks about but it doesn’t directly speak on how many airlines applied.
I don’t have that information right in front of me.
Mr. Curley: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, that information is important to the committee and I would urge the minister to bring that information as quickly as possible to the committee.
This is quite an important part of the process and we need to know exactly who is participating in the RFP.
I could get that information from the department and I believe there were five airlines that were bidding.
We’re on Branch Summary.
Health and Social Services. Treatment.
I just needed more information from what I have been given or received from the department when I asked which airline was awarded for the Sanikiluaq medical travel. Which airline was awarded to serve the residents of Sanikiluaq?
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) We are in a difficult dilemma.
The contracts have not been signed and they have until April 1, so we cannot disclose publicly the process in terms of the actual contracts at the moment.
Once they are signed, as the minister committed to doing, they will be public.
So we’re in a bit of a difficult situation. We made sure the process was fair and open; we gave everyone an opportunity to compete through the RFP.
So that’s all I can say at this point.
Once they are signed within the next week and a half, by April 1, we will disclose that information. Hopefully we will get it sooner than that. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
When do the contracts start? (interpretation ends) Is it April 1?
Today is March 14. (interpretation) That’s not very far from now, so the government must know.
Why is it so late or why aren’t they signed yet?
Yes, we are aware this, but we can’t say anything in public at this time because they have not been signed.
Once they have been signed, then we can make it public but if we try and say something about it now, we will be breaking our laws.
We’re trying to following the RFP process methodically and thoroughly, and ensure we take due consideration of public concerns at the same time.
I understand that they will definitely be signed by March 31.
That’s how I understand it; they have to be signed by March 31. This is not a question. It’s just a comment.
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): It could be before March 31 because those airlines have until April 1 to sign the contract.
It would be good if it’s before March 31 so that we could release it but we’re waiting for them at this time.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, (interpretation ends) Mr. Premier. Branch Summary.
I must say that I’m kind of surprised that this government is indicating that they don’t know who put in tenders. They have evaluated them already, they have awarded, and they’re just waiting for signed copies back.
It’s baffling to hear, “Well, we don’t know who applied for the contracts in the Kivalliq,” I know that they know; they issued contracts already.
It just seems odd that they don’t want to tell us anything about this; it just raises more questions.
Mr. Chairman, my question for the Minister for Health is: although the minister is deflecting everything to Community and Government Services, I mean it is Department of Health’s contract; can the minister indicate if they had officials from the Department of Health involved in that process?
First of all, no one’s trying to deflect the process. A contract is only in place when two parties have signed. That’s what you call a contract.
Right now, that contract is not complete because the signatures have not been signed.
Once two parties agree to an agreement then we have a contract in place. That’s what we’re waiting for through this RFP process.
Once we have that completed, we will be able to talk about the contract because the contract is only when two parties have signed an agreement. That’s where it’s at.
The process that I speak to is managed by CG&S and they’re more familiar with the process of that RFP than I am, so this is why we refer to CG&S in terms of process.
Yes, we were a party to it, but the RFP process, as technical as it is, is managed by the Department of CG&S.
I think my colleague was asking how many people applied for it and not how many people were awarded the contract, and they don’t even want to divulge that information.
As the minister indicated, they did have officials that participated in the process, so the minister should be familiar with what went along through that process.
Can the minister indicate if there were any pre-meetings with all the interested parties prior to or after the RFP was issued so that if they had any questions and that, they would get clarification on things in regard to the contract that took place?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Mr. Chairman, in terms of the process and managing the RFP process, again that question should be directed to the Department of CG&S that manages the RFP process.
We don’t manage the process; the contracting managers of CG&S manage the process. So CG&S should be answering that question.
The information that was provided by me by my officials is on medical travel on RFP and contract processes, and this is dated on March 6. And furthermore, I can’t speak on the contract itself because it’s not signed.
The role of CGS’ Procurement Department is to ensure an open and fair contracting and procurement process is followed.
In any RFP process, the issuing body, in this case it’s the GN, has the duty to be fair to all proponents.
The courts have upheld the duty of fairness consistently in many parts in past court examples.
This public process was conducted in accordance with approved procurement policies and procedures, including public advertising and the NNI Policy.
An open, fair, and transparent process was followed:
all proponents had access to the same information at the same time;
all proposals were evaluated based on the same published evaluation criteria as outlined in the RFP document;
RFP processes, while they contain language that allow for a process to be cancelled, can only be cancelled for objective business reasons only, otherwise the government is exposed to legal risk;
modification of evaluation results were sent to the proponents;
proponents were notified on January 25, 2008;
draft contracts have been prepared by CGS and reviewed by Justice;  draft contracts have been sent to Finance; and
draft contracts have been sent to proponents for their feedback.
As of today, I don’t want to be guessing but there were Kivalliq Air, Calm Air, Jimmy Onalik, Nunasi, Canadian North, and First Air.
Those are the airlines that I know who we sent information to.
My question to the Minister of Health was if there was a meeting prior to or after the RFP was issued, where all of the proponents, if they had any questions, or concerns, or clarifications to be sought on the contract, on the RFP.
Was there a meeting like that held and were any of her officials in attendance at those meetings?
Our Rule 70(2), allows the minister to refer the question to another minister and I believe that has been followed this morning.
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Again, the process is managed through CG&S. If there were meetings of that nature, the Minister of CGS would respond to that. Thank you.
Hon. Levinia Brown (interpretation): We were following the procedures and policies accordingly, and we met together as Cabinet Ministers and we heard what we had to do at the same time.
I don’t know why anyone here doesn’t want to say they were at a meeting to answer questions and clarifications by any of the proponents.
Maybe the Minister of Health can ask her deputy if she or any of her staff were at a meeting to clarify any questions in regard to the RFP after it was issued but before it closed.
I already mentioned the people involved in the contract, including CGS from I heard from my officials that were involved at the meeting with the airlines that were involved.
I mentioned that six airlines were involved.
If there were any other airlines that were involved, I apologize if I didn’t mention any others.
I’m aware of whom CGS sat with, with the people involved in the Health Department.
I wasn’t there because as ministers, we are given reports from those meetings so I’m trying to tell you what I have heard from the staff.
That still doesn’t answer my question.
So I would like to ask the Minister of Health if her deputy or any of his staff were at a question and answer type meeting with the proponents that applied to the RFP or the package and were interested in bidding for it to get any clarifications that they may have had in regard to it.
That’s all I’m asking. What’s so hard about answering that?
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (interpretation ends) Perhaps if I speak in English.
My minister said that there was a meeting of all the proponents together to get the information, ask questions, and they were all given the same opportunity. (interpretation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think I understood that but my question was: was the Deputy Minister of Health or any of his officials in attendance at that meeting?
The Deputy Minister of Health was not at that meeting. The RFP process consisted of representatives from CG&S, who managed the RFP process, and two weeks ago, as I mentioned in the House through Question Period, ED&T was part of that committee as well as Health, but my deputy was not at that meeting.
Mr. Tootoo: Which officials from the Department of Health were there?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: The Assistant Deputy Minister of Health, Dave Richardson.
I would assume that the deputy minister and the minister would have been advised of what went on at that meeting by their assistant deputy minister.
Can someone indicate if, in fact, that the proponents were all told that the contract, as stated, starts April 1 and if there were any questions raised in regard to what would happen if any proponent that bid on it and was awarded it wasn’t able to deliver the service as of April 1?
Hon. Leona Aglukkaq: Mr. Chairman, it’s very difficult to answer questions when I’m being asked questions that are what if, what if, what if; we’re going on the basis of assumptions here.
I don’t know what was discussed at that meeting. I do know, from what my ministerial colleague had mentioned, is there is a process in place.
That process was followed; it was Q’s and A’s from the airlines and those were answered through the process.
In terms of any clarification they needed, everyone, from what she said, was treated fairly, was given the same information, the same questions, and so on. That process happened. I cannot answer questions on anticipated outcomes of decisions.
As I stated earlier, we must not ask hypothetical questions in the House. When we start the meeting, we always state Rule 77(2) and we need to ask questions following that.
I don’t think it was a hypothetical question.
I was just wondering if the proponents were informed if there would be any penalties or if anything would happen in the event that they couldn’t fulfill their commitments under their proposals on the effective date of the contract.