EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
If I can explain Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ng has allowed for 355 million dollars in the capital plan over the 5 years and of that about 84 million dollars was not allocated.
That was to allow for flexibility as members bring issues forward.
I believe, in January, we will have an opportunity, as members, to look at the capital plan and reallocate some of the extra funds for those types of issues.
I would hope at that time Mr. Chairman that Igloolik health centre would be one of those programs that we might be able to advance in the capital plan.
Each department as the member is aware we given a target. To match.
When we look at our target we have several programs that we are trying to bring forward including the health centre in Igloolik, Pangnirtung as well as Pond.
We need to stagger them over them through the years so that we develop a capital plan.
Do you have any more questions or comments.
Mr. Irqittuq (interpretation): My colleague is going to help me with this question. Mr. Arvaluk.
The 2000-2001 budget, we agreed to it and called it the Appropriation Act.
We made it the law.
Before we changed it ourselves as an Assembly, the minister and the cabinet made a change on the capital plan.
So I want to find out if these Appropriation Acts can be changed without an amendment being put forth for this change.
Is that possible.
Last year in 2001-2002 we had approved in the budget 650 thousand dollars for the functional program design for the Igloolik facility.
At the present time we’re in the process of completing that and there is some work now under the design of the facility and the facility is scheduled to begin as the member said next year with site work and then continue with two years of actual construction and the final part will be ready by 2006.
We would expect that early 2006 the people would be able to move into that facility.
We’re staggering those facilities along within the budget framework that we’ve been given as a department.
Mr. Chairman, I asked the minister if it is in the Act because it’s already been put in the Appropriation Act in 2000-2001.
I’m looking at the capital projects substantiation sheet for 2006-2007 and it’s not there.
My question is not with the figure, my question is can the minister change the Appropriation Act without making an amendment through this House.
Mr. Chairman, if I understand the Financial Administration Act and I believe I do, and he’s a former minister and he knows that I cannot change the Act independently or arbitrarily before it goes to the House for approval.
The minister also knows that this House cannot add amounts other than by a motion of recommendation.
But yet we see the legislation appropriating the government expenditures with the 5 year capital plan including the Igloolik health centre, being removed without amendment or even discussion in the Standing Committee.
Can the minister explain to this House how does he manoeuvre this without making an amendment to the Appropriation Act.
Mr. Chairman, we are approving the capital plan for this year.
The capital plan, the 5 year capital plan is a forecast of the expenditures to occur.
This capital plan and the book that the member has in front of him, it shows the projects that we have under approval through this capital plan for this planning year, for this fiscal cycle.
The future years' plan, next year for example Mr. Chairman, on the 5 year capital plan, Igloolik will come back in to the capital plan and you will see a future list for that project.
The capital plan, which you see in front of you on your book, Mr. Chairman, doesn't list every project for the next five years.
These are the projects that you are approving for this fiscal year.
Maybe because I am not understanding this capital planning process, but for Pangnirtung, there was nothing in the five year capital plan, but now it is in this year for 985 thousand dollars.
Maybe that's why I am mixed up or I am misunderstanding the process.
Because the five year plan for Igloolik is written up quite well but it's not in the previous pages.
I am not sure exactly how, are we going to be following the five year capital plan as it is written.
Is that the way it is going to be.
Mr. Chairman, if I look at it based on the pages, the member would look in our book at page 10-7 in the capital estimates book.
You will see for example the Pang facility.
We had planned it as a functional program.
There is 450 thousand for the Pang facility for this fiscal year.
That's why it is there.
You can see in prior year costs, we have spent 15, so it had to have been in the budget before, we had spent 15 thousand.
This year we will spend 450.
Later on, at some point we will spend 985 thousand.
The Igloolik facility, Mr. Chairman, we have it budgeted for 2001/2002 there was 650 thousand spent.
But because there was no budget for this year, because that money is undergoing, we did the design work and so on this year, for that project, next year when we do the 2003/2004 budget you will see Igloolik then pop in with a budget.
Then in the other column you will see a prior year cost of what we spent.
I don't know if that helps explain what has happened there.
But it is not Mr. Chairman, unlike any of the other capital that we have done in any of the other departments to date.
How come in the five year plan Pangnirtung was never there before in the five year plan.
It started out with a plan there for Pangnirtung before but there was no money at all for Pangnirtung.
All of a sudden it is in the capital plan, the capital estimates.
There was no money at all in the capital estimate for Pangnirtung.
There was a little bit in there, but there was nothing for a 5 year capital plan for Pangnirtung.
But now all of a sudden you can see it in here in the amount of 985 thousand.
I just wondered how you came up with that figure.
Mr. Chairman, in the 5 year capital plan you have projects that appear that may be a priority like some of the concerns brought forward by hamlets and members and the 5 year capital plan never reflected what the communities wanted.
You will see though Mr. Chairman, we have spent 15 thousand dollars in the capital plans.
So it was in the capital plan last year after we developed the capital plan that we have.
The expenditure in Pangnirtung for example will not occur, which is a concern by the way for some people in Pangnirtung, until next year, the 450 thousand amount.
The actual construction then won't occur for three years.
Igloolik will be moving forward because it isn't in the plan.
For example, Mr. Arvaluk and I are working on the Chesterfield Inlet program and I can't get an RFP for it.
I might have to put Chesterfield in the capital plan now although it wasn't there last year and the year before last.
So that allows for flexibility Mr. Chairman.
Last question, Mr. Chairman.
Yes, I understand your explanation Mr. Minister.
Under the plans that were made in November that Pangnirtung gets 15 thousand dollars this year or last year.
Igloolik had in total 551 thousand dollars.
Looking at the 5 year capital plan, Pangnirtung only had 15 thousand in the 5 year capital plan.
There was nothing for Pangnirtung for the 5 years.
Where did you get the money for the 5 year capital plan for Pangnirtung.
I am not saying that health facility isn't required in Pangnirtung.
It doesn't seem to make sense for the 5 year capital plans.
Where did the money come from.
Mr. Chairman, the member is correct that 15 thousand has been spent.
If you move forward then the allocation is for 450 and then according to the capital plan, there would be no money spent again until 2006-2007 in Pangnirtung. That is a concern of ours.
What we said earlier as Mr. Ng has explained as the Minister of Finance, that is the allocated capital plan for years 2, 3, 4, 5.
That is the plan that you have there.
There is 25 percent or more that has not been allocated to a specific project.
That is why we tried to move forward the Igloolik project and so on in the capital plans that you have in there.
We had the basis of what was given to the Department of Health.
The allocation amount.
So that is why it was in there for the 15.
If I had to put in the 450 we would have been over the allocation.
It wouldn't have been there.
So when I go the department's 5 year capital plan it's there.
If you look at your book, you can see indeed there was an expenditure the year before that was approved by this Assembly a year ago.
I don't know if that is the best explanation. Maybe Mr. Ng could explain the capital planning process a little bit better than that.
I could ask Mr. Ng to explain that to us.
Chairperson (interpretation): Mr. Irqittuq
It won't explain any better but my question is where did you get the money from, the amount of 450 thousand dollars.
In the 5 year capital plan it wasn't there originally. Where did you get the 450 thousand for Pangnirtung.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you . Mr. Picco.
That's the estimated amount that was put in place.
We estimated it would cost that for the functional program design.
What we've done for the facility that's up to 450 thousand amount.
So for example in Pond, we had originally scheduled 650 thousand, I don’t think we've ever spent that much. That's where the amount came from.
Is the minister saying that the 450 thousand dollars was taken out of Pond Inlet and given it to Pangnirtung.
My question is where did you get the 450 thousand dollars.
Where did you take it out from to put it into Pangnirtung.
Hon. Ed Picco: I understand you better.
The capital plan that was proposed and the members had the opportunity to vote for is where we have that amount, for Pangnirtung 450 thousand dollars for functional program design for the facility.
We haven't taken it from anywhere, it's not taken from the Igloolik project or the Pond Inlet project.
It's a new number that's in there for our capital plan and based on estimates from our capital planner Ms. Brown, we've looked at 450 thousand dollars, we think we can design and have a functional program for the health facility in Pangnirtung.
It didn't come from any other project.
When we approve the capital plan each year, we approve the capital plan for that project, for that specific fiscal year.
So for example last year we approved 15 thousand for Pangnirtung, that's probably for site visits, where our consultant from the functional program team would have went to Pangnirtung and looked at it and then came back this year, now we need to be able to visit and design a functional program.
So the 450 never came from anyone else's project.
It's specifically for approval here today.
Do you want to go page by page. 10-6.
I would just like to put a question to the minister. (interpretation ends) On the five year capital plan, you have listed four projects for the future, which include Pond, Pang, Igloolik and Repulse Bay.
Can the minister provide an update on how the new projects or renovations to facilities in the other communities will be priorized.
How will they do that in the future to avoid these kinds of discussions we're having, so we know what you are trying to do here for the future plans for the other communities.
Like every department, the Department of Health prioritizes its programs, its capital projects and brings that forward to the House, to the FMB for approval.
For example our estimates right now for 2002-2003 that we are looking at is 5 million 800 thousand dollars in approval for capital projects.
Next year you are looking at 2 million 700 thousand dollars.
That again is based on the way we've been able to develop a capital plan.
That allows for flexibility.
There may be more money voted by the Assembly approved as a priority for the Department of Health and Social Services to put forward.
For example, if there was an urgent need for a facility like I said earlier like Chesterfield.
If something didn't work out with the RFP then that money could go into the budget.
Which is the same as it is for every other government department.
So this year we have 5.8 million dollars.
Next year we are looking at 2.7 million dollars.
That may increase based on the allocation that would be done by the House as well as the Financial Management Board.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Minister. 10-6.
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): Are we going page by page or are we asking questions still.
Chairperson (interpretation): I thought that you already had.
We are now going page by page.
Department of Health and Social Services.
Total capital expenditures, 5 million 860 thousand dollars.
We are on 10-7.
We will get back to 10-6.
Total Qikiqtaaluk region, 5 million 530 thousand.
I was just going to ask about the page number.
That has been clarified.
For Pangnirtung, the money is going to be used for the Health Centre replacement.
Just going back to Mr. Irqittuq's question.
It is not in the 5 year plan.
Then there are communities that were in the 5 year plan that are not included here.
I'd like to take that out.
Mr. Chairman, if we look at how the capital planning process came forward.
In 1999-2000 that was a jam packed capital plan that we were all quite upset about when we approved it at Inukshuk high school.
Next year, 2000-2001 we looked at traveling around to different communities.
For example, I went to Resolute Bay and Grise Fiord for community consultations and then we built the beginning of our 5 year capital plan.
At that time there was program money in there that we approved last year, only two and a half years into this project.
Because we have been elected for only two and a half years.
So for last year 2001-2002 it was 15 thousand dollars in the capital budget that the Members of this House approved for Pangnirtung.
For this year we have 450 thousand dollars in the budget to complete the functional programming design of the facility.
So it hasn't magically popped up.
It was there last year and it is there this year.
Last year was the first year we actually put together and massaged that capital plan.
For 2001-2002, 15 thousand was just to plan the health centre, that’s it, just to look at it.
The 450 thousand dollars isn't in the 5 year plan so I wouldn’t mind at all if it was taken out.
Chairperson (interpretation): The 450 thousand is in the 5 year plan under 2002/2003 budget, it' been planned for 2002/2003, it's in the 5 year plan.
Regarding the Pangnirtung health centre replacement, the money that is put in for 2002/2003 is 450 thousand and then there's a big gap between 2003 and 2006.
Can the minister tell me what, for the 2002/2003 functional program, because there's a big gap between the two, what is the 985 thousand going to be used for.
Mr. Chairman, the member is observant, he'll note that, like in Igloolik, last year we approved 650 and that was the point I think the Member for Amittuq was making because there's a big gap again until 2003/2004, where the 400 comes in.
James just pointed out rightly so, that we see the 450 for 2002/2003 for Pang and then nothing till 2006/2007 because each department would be given a percentage from their past expenditures under an envelope to spend, that's where we have allocated some money.
As I said earlier I'm allowed 5.8 million dollars this year, and next year according to my plan today, there's only 2.7 million dollars there but in January when the members bring forward suggestions in the FMB, we will look at the reallocations.
So for example, I would expect Pang would move closer on the five year capital plan and in Igloolik we would actually pick up some extra dollars, so that's the unallocated amount.
So I think that's where the confusion is with the amount in the allocated target.
Maybe I'm just slow at understanding what's being said here.
Health and Social Services are short of funds and how can they do this.
I'm just finding it hard to understand.
When you look at the 5 year plan capital plan, this is up to 2006/2007 and then in June it wasn't there and under 2006/2007 the amount is there.
In the appendix it wasn't there in 2003 the amount that is.
But now it has been put in.
I am just confused.
Chairperson (interpretation): I think we are trying to clarify under Health and Social Services.
Mr. Minister, the members are trying to find out where this 450 thousand dollars came from.
Under the 2002-2003 budget it is 450 thousand and there is a gap between 2002-2003 and 2006-2007.
Under 2006-2007 there is 985 thousand dollars.
That is the question that the members are trying to clarify.
The question the members are raising is where did you get the 450 thousand dollars.
Was it to be used for 2005-2006.
If we look in the appendix in our capital planning book on page A19.
You will see the 2001-2002 budget and the plan going up to 2006-2007 and you will see in very dark black.
You will see the amount of 5 million 645 thousand dollars.
And the next 2.7 million dollars.
And you would see the year before we had 15 for Pangnirtung and this year 450 thousand dollars.
And Igloolik as Enoki and others have pointed out flips that year.
In the following year it picks up.
My capital budget for next year is only half of what it is this year.
As I said earlier, in January we have an opportunity for the reallocation of some money for the capital plan.
And the amount, the target that I was given is there.
Which is 2.7 million.
So it shows it didn't come about magically.
The 450 thousand dollars for Pangnirtung for this year just didn't appear.
Last year we spent 15 thousand and this year 450.
There is a gap for those three years.
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): Mr. Irqittuq can go first.
Maybe if I ask the question this way it will be clarified.
We agreed to the 2002-2003 budget.
The 5 year capital plan.
We have the capital estimates for 2002-2003 in front of us.
There are changes, that is why I am asking these questions.
Amounts that weren't there before are there now.
So will Igloolik be able to get some money for 2003-2004.
Will money be put in for that just like the 450 was put into Pangnirtung.
The way we planned was you estimate down the road for the other plans.
I can tell the minister or the member for 2003-2004 there will be money in that capital budget for Igloolik because that’s what we’re already stating in the estimates.
I believe it’s 400 thousand.
Chairperson (interpretation): I think we have to understand each other.
Their capital plan for 2006-2007 has not been approved but we have to approve the capital plans every year, annually.
Right now we’re at 2002-2003 so we can approve these but the other years in the 5 year plan for the future, we are not able to approve it at this time.
We are not dealing with it.
You’re correct Mr. Chairman but this is only 450 thousand and it’ll be used only in one year and it’s going to be used towards the health centre planning.
It’s supposed to be used under the capital plan for one year.
Is it going to be just used for the expansion of the health centre.
If we were to look at the Igloolik health centre it says it’s for Igloolik for 2002-2003.
There’s nothing there but in 2004, 4 thousand is allocated and up to 2005 it’s all in those years in the future years.
But 450 thousand for Pangnirtung and from Igloolik it might be transferred to Pangnirtung.
So Igloolik will lose out.
I think that’s the way it is, the way I see it.
That’s where the problem is.
We have to consult with our communities with respect to the 5 year capital plan.
But with respect to the 450 thousand it’s not going to be over 450 thousand and we will approve it.
But if it’s going to be over that then we are not going to approve.
Chairperson (interpretation): Igloolik does not have anything under the 5 year capital plan at this stage, 2002-2003 there’s nothing under the 5 year capital plan if it’s not stated in our documents.
The new planning cycle process that we have was put in place in the past year, so it's understandable there's confusion over what's happening here.
So I'm going to take one more stab at it.
The 450 thousand dollars that we had in there for Pang.
If it's approved in this budget, it will start functional program design work.
And the next figure on page 8-19 when you look at the 5 year plan, my target is 2.7 and that's my preliminary target right now but probably in early 2002, probably in April around that period of time, we’ll have had a chance to look at reallocation of the other monies that everyone's agreed to, that's explained in everyone's book.
So at that time Igloolik steps up to the plate and the Member for Igloolik will say look we need to bring that forward and I would go into the capital plans, so instead of 2.7 maybe I'll go back up then to 5 million and I'll be able do the Pond and the Igloolik facilities or Pang and Igloolik.
So we would be adding to it.
So right now the 2.7 that you are seeing in the capital plan is just a preliminary planning target for the capital plan.
The final target, the final amount will be determined by the members and by the FMB next spring and fall when we come back to the House, that's what we all agreed to in the capital planning process.
Health is no different than Education or Public Works and these other departments that we've seen.
The 450 is for approval now so I hope that explains a little bit more. The 5.8 is for today and next year, next fall we'll have an opportunity to bring that 2.7 up to Igloolik.
And for example Mr. Chairman, Pang would go further into the budget.
Does the Chairman for the Health Committee have comments to clarify this. Mr. Nutarak.
The Health Minister was saying that we're trying to approve 5.6 million at this time, according these capital plans and he's saying 2.7.
He's talking about 2.7, if I understand him correctly is that what he was referring to.
Chairperson (interpretation): Under A-19, according to what the minister is referring to 2 million 700 thousand, 2003/2004 that's what it states in here.
Total 2002/2003, 2 million 730 thousand total on page A-19.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A-19, which the minister was talking about, 5 million 645 thousand is what we're trying to approve.
The way I understood that we would have to approve 2.7 in next coming year, according to this plan, that's what I understood.
He was stating that he might be able to move this 2.7 to Igloolik is that what the minister was referring to.
Chairperson (interpretation): No, he was not referring to that.
Mr. Minister, if you can try and clarify.
Hon. Ed Picco: Yes, Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Just very quickly again.
For 2002/2003 we're trying to approve 5.8 million and the question was raised at the beginning where did the 450 come from for Pang.
I tried to explain that they had spent 15 the year before and we have 450 now.
And then the question was raised, what about Igloolik, there's a large gap there, so I tried to explain that right now for next year the Department of Health is only forecasting 2.7 million dollars for 2003/2004, for next year.
That's a preliminary target that we have right now, the final target, the final amount for the capital for next year will be determined by the FMB and the Members of the Standing Committees.
So at that time Igloolik might pop up with a million or Pang might come with less than a million at that time so right now we approve the 5.8 and then next year the preliminary amount right now is 2.7.
It's up to the members and the FMB when we get a chance to look at it in June and in the fall, the legislation final target will be there and at that time Igloolik like I said may be advanced in the capital projects. So it's just a preliminary figure.
So the 5.8 is a real figure that we're approving right now and then my target for next year I plan for 2.7. We have allowed every member in the beginning of their looking at the process, there's money that's not allocated and that's the money that members and FMB have an opportunity to allocate in the fall which would include the amount for Igloolik.
Is it clear now.
Yes, we agree, Yes, Mr. Chairman if you look at Pangnirtung 450 thousand, 15 thousand 985 up to 2007.
It reflects appendix A-19 perfectly but if you look at Igloolik it's blank in the 5 year capital plan but if it's stated in A-19 that's exactly what's the minister's saying, so okay.
What is the inconsistency between those two, this is the question.