EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters, with Mr. Netser as the Chair.
Bill 2 – Appropriations (O&M) Act, 2004-05.
In accordance with the authority provided to me by Motion 11-2(1), the Committee of the Whole will stay in session until it reports itself out.
Before we proceed with the Committee of the Whole, we will take a one-and-a-half hour break and return at 1:30.
>>House recessed at 11:50 and resumed at 13:24
Chairman (interpretation): Good afternoon.
I would like to thank you for coming back to the meeting.
(Interpretation ends.) The committee will come to order.
We have Bill 2 to deal with in the committee today.
Does the committee agree that we review the main estimates for the Department of Justice?
Minister Okalik, you may begin your opening comments, please.
I am pleased to appear before the committee to present the Department of Justice 2004-2005 main estimates.
The department has been allocated a total operating budget of $48,993,000. This represents an increase of $2,886,000, which is 4.4 percent.
The new money in the department’s budget will contribute to help us enhance our programs to reflect the priorities of the Bathurst Mandate.
The largest allocation of new funding, $1,500,000, is for the Kugluktuk healing facility, which will serve offenders from the Kitikmeot area of Nunavut.
This new funding has allowed for the planned opening of a facility that would eventually be able to take in between 15 to 20 territorial minimum and medium security inmates.
The inmates are currently housed either in the overcrowded Baffin Correctional Facility in Iqaluit or are being held in facilities outside of Nunavut.
This new facility will allow the department to offer inmates community-based healing programs that will help them reintegrate into the community.
Human Rights Tribunal
The new Human Rights Tribunal has been legislated to be in place by November 2004.
The balance of the increased funding for 2004-2005, $6000,000, is to establish the tribunal.
Before implementation of the Nunavut Human Rights Act, public information will be provided to ensure that Nunavummiut have a good understanding of the rights and protections that this act offers.
This information will also provide Nunavummiut with information on how to access the tribunal.
Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit and Inuit Employment
The Department of Justice takes its responsibilities with regard to Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit and Inuit employment very seriously.
Consequently, the management of three major Department of Justice facilities will soon be staffed by Inuit.
The department has recently hired an Inuk to manage the new healing centre in Kugluktuk, which is expected to open this fall.
The healing centre itself will provide employment for 12 new staff, most of whom we expect to be local Inuit as well.
The department is also moving toward having the young offenders’ facility in Iqaluit managed by an Inuk, who will be starting as a trainee this summer and who should take over full management responsibilities in the coming months.
Furthermore, employment ads for other positions at the young offenders facility are now posted with Inuktitut as a requirement.
Finally, management of the Utaqqivik half-way house in Iqaluit has recently been taken over by an Inuk who just successfully completed training for the position.
In addition, last week the department successfully direct-appointed an elder to the new full-time position of elder advisor.
This elder contributes to the department’s policy and legislation development and plays a major role in instructing the Akitsiraq law students in Inuktitut and Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit.
His name is Lucien Ukaliannuk, and he has made a huge contribution to our department.
This increase in Inuit employment, especially at the management level, will contribute to programs and services for inmates that more clearly reflect their culture and language.
Mr. Chairman, although we are now moving in the right direction, we recognize that there is still much to do.
I want to reassure my colleagues that we are working hard at making the Department of Justice, its programs and services, more representative of Nunavummiut.
Those are my comments and I will be pleased to respond to any questions that members of the committee may have.
(Interpretation ends.) Will you need your departmental officials?
I would like to welcome you. Please introduce your officials.
We have Anthony Saez, who is our acting deputy minister, and our financial comptroller, Pierre Chartrand, welcome.
Mr. Mapsalak: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am pleased to be able to give the committee’s opening remarks as we begin debate on the 2004-05 main estimates for the Department of Justice.
Members were pleased to hear that the department is in the process of reviewing the Wills Act and is consulting with communities on amendments to the act.
Many Nunavummiut are not aware of wills or the purpose of wills, and families often encounter difficulties.
This becomes increasingly important especially if there are disputes between family members over assets.
Members also expressed great concern regarding drugs entering their communities and are pleased that the RCMP now has a narcotics-detection dog to use in the fight against drugs.
It is all too common that we hear our youth are abusing drugs and alcohol and not focusing on the more important things in life.
Members urge the department to work wherever possible with law enforcement on this issue.
Members look forward to the opening of the new Kugluktuk men’s healing facility.
This will enable this government to repatriate some of our inmates to Nunavut and possibly decrease costs for housing our inmates outside of Nunavut.
The committee would like to see the facility focus on healing using Inuit Qaujimajtuqangit.
Another concern is the lack of space in communities during court circuits.
Some victims have to face the accused in the same room, and confidential conversations between lawyers and clients can often be heard by the public.
This makes it very uncomfortable for victims.
Members were concerned about departmental overexpenditures in the area of the Legal Services Board due to the greater number of caseloads.
Members are pleased that work is underway on developing appropriate protocols between the RCMP, the Government of Nunavut, and the Legislative Assembly on the reporting of matters concerning members.
The government must always be transparent to the public it serves.
Members were generally satisfied overall with the department’s progress, and I anticipate that individual members will raise their own comments and concerns on the department’s 2004-2005 main estimates.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Mapsalak.
Before we proceed, I would like to remind the members of the following: according to rule 77(1), you have ten minutes to say your general comments. According to rule 77(2), subject to the discussion of the Chair, the member may speak more than once to a matter of discussion but not until every member willing to speak has spoken.
The floor is open to general comments. Any comments?
We will start at page E-5, the justice branch summary. “Directorate, total operations.” Mr. Curley.
I would like to thank the minister and his officials for making an appearance before the Committee of the Whole.
To get to my comments: in regards to the former Speaker of the Legislative Assembly being charged for bringing alcohol to a prohibited community… .
The deputy minister resigned, and this House does not know the reasons for the resignation.
Apparently, it was for the way the deputy minister was handling the case.
So, it became obvious that possibly yourself and the deputy minister had a communication gap.
Are you going to be able to have discussions now with your current deputy minister?
To me, this was extremely important because I was concerned about the people of Nunavut; we did not want to see a repeat of what had happened with the former Speaker.
When we are dealing with such situations, we have to take it seriously. Of course, I’ll have to work very closely with my deputy minister, and we have to know what’s happening within our department.
This case is over, but we were only concerned, and we do not want to see a repeat of the same situation.
Well, when you are looking from the outside, it seems that the Minister didn’t have regular communication with the deputy minister.
The minister is responsible for his department, and if you didn’t know about what was happening in your own department, I would think it wasn’t only the deputy minister’s fault. If I say it in English, it’s: (interpretation ends) so, where does the buck stop in the Department of Justice?
Well, I know that I have to be responsible for my department, and if I don’t know or have a response to your question, then I will not be able to respond. The situation where I was at is that I had to stop it right there in order to not see a repeat of it happening again.
Could you tell Nunavut and this House: if a similar circumstance appears, could you assure the House and the people of Nunavut that there has been a restructuring in your department?
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): I made a statement when we went through this situation.
I wrote a letter to the Member Services Board and the RCMP to make sure that if any member of the House is charged that the Clerk of the House be notified immediately so that we can deal with the situation.
I am sure that would help us a lot.
The Member Services Board will be informed because, of course, everything has to go through the board before any action is taken.
I would like to thank you and your department for taking this type of action.
Just to reiterate my first question regarding law enforcement and how the members of the Legislative Assembly cannot take on that role… .
I think that they took the correct option, but apparently the deputy minister was not aware of the situation.
I just wanted to clarify the point.
From the kind of action that you took, it is obvious that you took the option, and that corrective measures have been put in place.
After that situation we took corrective action in order to not see a similar circumstance happen.
Last year in Sanikiluaq we had an incident.
This individual was scaring everyone in the community, and he ran away out to the land.
We had to have the law enforcement come in from Ottawa.
This was an incident that we did not think would occur in the community.
This could happen to anyone.
At that time, we had many uniformed police coming into the community.
This individual thought that he was going to be killed and we could not find him for a number of days.
As a community, it would be better if the Inuit could look after this situation instead.
At that time he thought that the law enforcers were coming get him, or even to kill him.
After that situation, we felt that we could do it better than is done right now with the Department of Justice.
There has got to be an alternative on how we could do this better, as in the incident that happened in Sanikiluaq last year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
We do not know what the staff did with this. At that time, after a policeman was murdered, we had to be very careful so we could protect the officers.
If there is an emergency case, such as has what happened in Sanikiluaq… . I really don’t know the status of this today.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Okalik.
That incident that happened in Sanikiluaq… .
Before something like this happens again, I feel that we could use the Inuktitut way of doing things.
Even though this Inuk had done something wrong… . It is very scary when you do know what is going to happen, and we were told not to go look for him when he took off from the community.
The officers that were there do not know the land; they are coming from down south.
We know our landscape, our environment, but we were told that we could not look for this individual who was accused of doing wrong. I feel that Inuit traditions should be used when something like this happens again.
We should think about the alternative way of doing things.
I do not have any more names left.
We are in E-5.
The directorate. $2,686.000.
There’s an increase in compensation and benefits there, and I’m just wondering… . I know this from the business plan, they’re showing an additional two PYs there.
I was wondering. how much of that increase is the result of the increased PYs, and how much of it is the result of collective bargaining?
We like to have the additional PYs.
We hired an elder for a new position.
A full time position.
The rest are absorbed as higher salary costs.
I guess it is good to be able to hire elders for that advice.
But just on the business plan, last year it shows 21 PYs, and this year they’re showing 23.
I’m just wondering why that discrepancy there, because there is only one additional PY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Hon. Paul Okalik: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is all there is, just one additional PY for this year.
I’m just trying to… . I understand that.
But then, is it a typo in the business plan, that it is showing an increase of two PYs?
That is all the additional PY under the director.
I’m referring to page E-34, the business plan; it has a financial summary and lists of PYs, and under “Directorate” it says there is an increase of two.
Like I said, I was just wondering why it is different like that; is it only one, if it was a mistake or not?
Hon. Paul Okalik: Yes, that is how we are. Probably it was a typo. We will look into it and fix it.
We are on E-5. “Total, operations and maintenance:” $2,686,000.
(Interpretation.) Agreed?
Chairman: Going on to page E-7. Justice branch summary, law enforcement. “Total, operations and maintenance.”
Mr. Curley (interpretation): Yes, I have a question on E-7. Can you elaborate on the Inuit community policing program? Is it the RCMP, do they go to Regina?
And also, the second one, the Nunavut community constable program: how popular is it, and how many communities are benefiting from this?
Chairman: “Qujannamiik,” Mr. Curley.
I thought you were not going to ask another question. Yes, we are trying to get more Inuit police through the RCMP.
They go down for training to become constables.
We do have more Inuit constables in Nunavut.
We are trying very hard to make sure that we get more interest. There are a number of people that would like to become policemen. There are too few from the community policing in the communities.
We get funding from the federal and territorial police, through agreements.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): This is not going to be my last question.
It states that do they… . Cost sharing with the RCMP and the federal government… . We are very thankful to the RCMP and Nunavut government that they are jointly working together and we are getting more Inuit police constables.
Are we getting more interest, or is it slowing down?
When we first started, it was extremely popular, but now it has slowed.
Right now, I can say that today 18 police have graduated.
We are still trying to get more Inuit interested in policing; we will continue to teach Inuit to become police.
A second question: the NCC program, Nunavut constable program, do they work in their own home community before they go to school?
Hon. Paul Okalik (interpretation): Yes, we have had one or two that have taken this, the Nunavut community policing constable program. It is a bit different from the other one. We make sure that they have work experience before they go for training.
Most of the Nunavut constable programs constables have successfully completed that. This is right now.
(Interpretation ends.) We are on E-7. Justice branch summary, law enforcement.
“Total, operations.” Mr. Tootoo.
This is an area where we have our contract with the RCMP to provide policing services throughout Nunavut.
I note that contract amount has decreased since last year a little bit, not a whole heck of a lot.
But I’m just wondering if the Minister of Finance had indicated in their fiscal overview that they are expecting shortfalls on that contract.
I’m just wondering if the minister has any of an idea how much of a shortfall we can expect over the next year.
Like anything, the cost of operations will likely go up, we don’t know how much. The fuel the RCMP requires for the vehicles or detachments may go up.
So those things we can’t predict as to how much.
The RCMP are going through the collective bargaining process as well.
I would like to finalize it this year.
That will likely increase salary costs for the RCMP.
So, I don’t think that we’ll likely increase costs for policing.
We don’t know exactly how much at this point.
Due to an incident that happened in Nunavut here a few years ago, there are some changes in staffing requirements in communities for RCMP members: that there wouldn’t be, at any time, one member in a given community.
Given that, I ask why there is a reduction in the amount there; it was something that they were able to negotiate with the RCMP in the contract amount? Or, could we get an explanation?
Chairman: Mr. Okalik.
Over the last few years there’s been substantial increases in the RCMP budget.
We have to be able to afford their services.
We went through an exercise where we looked at our overall funding for all our operations, and this one here is where we thought that we could absorb some costs when we had to prioritize areas.
The minister is indicating the cut is a result of fiscal restraints on the government as a whole.
Does that mean that with the reduction in the contract amount that we are paying that are we receiving any less service by the RCMP as a result of that?
We are on page E-7.
Mr. Curley (interpretation): If no one wants to talk, let me ask again.
I would like to ask the minister about acting upon my questions. I’m sure that they will help to respond to evening calls.
I’m not asking questions in regards to that, but in regards to RCMP officers having to work in very difficult situations. Please make them aware that as a member of the Legislative Assembly I am supporting the RCMP.
When I speak to municipal councils I ask them to support the RCMP. At times we think that we are giving support to the RCMP by giving advice.
But, I do want to say that the RCMP, when they approach the schools, the children, the students are very happy to see RCMP. They eventually become role models.
Since I was a child, there is a lot more substance abuse; alcohol and drugs were never around.
Personally, myself, I don’t know anything about those. I’ve never touched any of those substances.
But when they teach the students about these things… .
I would advise the minister to encourage the RCMP.
Some of us as members, we have to tell our young people to try and stay away from substances. If they are experimenting with substances, I personally take them aside and talk with them.
I do encourage all members of the Legislature to encourage and give positive advice.
That way, it can really help the students. Therefore, Mr. Minister, I would encourage you to encourage the RCMP officers to go schools and to talk to the students.
That way they can receive more support and assistance in the future.
That was just a general comment.
I just wanted to follow up on my colleague’s comments.
In Cambridge Bay, there is an excellent example of RCMP working with the community.
We have RCMP officers that go into the schools and teach the DARE program, the BRAIN program.
There are drugs.
There is bullying.
They are involved in community, with a coach of minor hockey, floor hockey, all kinds of events, so they have a really good relationship.
They report to the hamlet council every month with a monthly report involving our Department of Health and Social Services wellness committee.
More recently the RCMP recruited a staff sergeant, that will be based in Cambridge Bay, to be a liaison with the RCMP in the Kitikmeot and Kivalliq region.
They connect the Kitikmeot to the headquarters here in Iqaluit.
So, I have a better relationship and understanding of what is happening out in the Kitikmeot.
That is an example of what we can do. We’ve been lobbying with the RCMP, as mayors, over the years.
The police in our communities get the folks more involved, and I very highly respect that, for the community.
So, I think that it is possible, in every community, to get the encouragement from the hamlet councils and the people in the communities.
So, I just want to make those comments.
That would be a very good member’s statement for some time too.
We are on law enforcement.
“Total, operations and maintenance:” $15,975,000.
E-8.
“Total, operations and maintenance:” $4,032,000.
When I was the chair of the Kitikmeot Law Centre, our board would seek conditional funding for the Kitikmeot Law Centre to put Legal Aid workers in every community.
And then we discovered, you know these things as soon as you get on these boards, that the lawyers that work for the board at the law centre don’t actually fall under our direct supervision.
They report to Nunavut Legal Services Board. They actually recruit the lawyers and then send them to Cambridge Bay and the Kitikmeot.
Our board doesn’t have direct control over them, and we were wondering how that works. That is just a comment here.
The Nunavut Legal Services Board operates at arm’s length with Government of Nunavut and I can understand that, but then you would think that the Kitikmeot Law Centre should have direct control and influence over the lawyers that work for them.
The board is an independent body. We do appointments for Nunavut to make sure that Nunavut’s geography is reflected on the board. The board makes decisions on legal aid applications or contracts for waiving legal counsel, for all of Nunavut.
So that is how the board operates right now. We do provide the money, but it is an arm’s length relationship with the board.
When we completed our budget one year, it was for $270,000. We developed our budget based on what we thought we required to provide Legal Aid in the Kitikmeot and to provide timely legal aid for the people who are seeking it.
We were just simply told that of the $270,000 dollars that was requested, here is what you get: $200,000; live with it.
In my mind, everybody is entitled to good legal representation and timely legal advice when and if they require it.
I am just wondering how then, if we try to provide that and we don’t have the resources to do it, are the people getting solid representation in the communities.
This is why the budget has increased quite a bit over the last little while. There has been a lot more people that have required legal services as required by the Charter of Rights.
Any person that may be charged is entitled to legal counsel.
We have to provide that.
So, there is always an increase or decrease in any given year.
So, it is a very difficult part of our budget because it is a moving target.
We don’t know how many will be charged or would require Legal Aid assistance.
So, it is something that we try and manage, but it is something that is an ongoing challenge.
Chairman (interpretation): Thank you, Minister Okalik.
Mr. Peterson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman Could the minister explain what he means when he says it is responsible for ensuring that all eligible persons receive legal services.
What would be an ineligible person in Nunavut?
If someone is making $100,000, let’s say, they will likely be ineligible for Legal Aid.
It is for people who cannot afford legal services, when they are facing charges.
It is also there for people that may be seeking child support.
So, it is application driven, and it is based on the income that the applicant may have.
The Legal Aid Board is the final decision maker on these matters.
On here it says the division is responsible for the provision of public legal education and information throughout Nunavut.
I am going to take that as what the department is looking at doing, on working on the world that is part of making people aware of what rights they have in writing wills and that.
I would like to just ask the minister what plans that department has.
If he could update us on community consultations and amendments that they plan on making to the rules.
Currently the system that we operate under is an inherited system that is quite legalistic, and a lot of times it does not reflect the wishes of the family.