EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
This pertains more to the larger communities that have the ability to tax their residents and then they can get debentures.
As the taxes are paid, the funds are paid back to the debenture so that they can borrow more funds.
The Minister will have to monitor the communities so they are able to pay back their loan that they had borrowed.
Mr. Chairman, even the hamlets sometimes borrow against their reserves, if the hamlets need vehicles for water or sewer services and they get the loan for the vehicles and if they have the adequate funding to pay back the original loan within the reserve along with the interest, they are able to do so.
In the past, the Minister did not monitor the operations of the hamlets, nor their performances whether they were going to have a deficit situation or not.
This was entirely up to the hamlets.
Mr. Irqittuq (interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The reason I am raising this question is due to the fact that we are working mainly with the hamlets, but Iqaluit is what you call a long winded city, in Inuktitut terms.
I do not have a huge problem with the proposed legislation, but I want it noted that in the past, the hamlets had problems with this unfettered ability to borrow funds.
Was this particular section written due to the experiences of the hamlets or was it due to the city’s experiences?
This legislation can be applied to the hamlets as well.
If they wanted to obtain staff housing for staff at the local level, they would have to borrow some money to build that housing.
The Minister will have to monitor that closely to make sure that acquiring staff housing or other capital asset will not put them into a deficit situation.
This applies to both cities and hamlets.
I understand the explanation that the Minister has the authority now, but during the Ministers’ comments she explained this will give more empowerment to the hamlets, perhaps through the legislation.
I believe this was due to problematic repayment of previous loans.
At present the communities do not really have any ability to get interest on their vehicle reserve funds.
If they are empowered under this legislation, will this allow a community the freedom to deposit their reserves under another financial institution so that they can utilize the interest on their reserves to enable them to be able to borrow against it?
The hamlets along with the SAOs talked about this as well because they wanted the ability to invest the reserve funds that they received annually to accumulate interest.
Under this draft bill they now have this ability to be able to benefit from their sizeable reserve funds so that they can utilize the interest on these funds.
Proceed Mr. Alakannuark.
I am not sure if we were going to get through or not.
I do not have many general comments, but I am very happy with the proposed amendments to the Hamlet Act because it will give more powers to the local hamlets.
The hamlets in the communities are the local governments and I am not putting any particular community down, but sometimes the hamlets go into deficit situations because of insufficient funding or due to mismanagement of funds.
Have you done any studies on how they can better manage their financial accounting?
Sometimes, some communities will go into a deficit situation because some of the managers do not know how to run their accountings.
And that is why some hamlets go into deficit situations and I want to recommend or suggest that you keep a very close watch on some of the communities that might go into deficit situations; just a comment.
I do not have any other people listed.
Before we review this clause by clause, I want clarification on an issue not raised by the Committee Members and the Minister.
In the smaller communities, the hamlet funding situation cannot keep up with the operational needs of the communities.
Some of the contracts require tendering for different goods and services, and when there are no contractors at the local level to provide these services, the hamlet is given the responsibility to provide the services required for the communities.
And sometimes there are no opportunities for businesses created for economic development because the contracts that could have been contracted out to smaller companies end up being contracted to the hamlet council, because they are also under fiscal pressure to fund their various obligations.
I am wondering if this issue will be addressed within the legislation.
I was wondering if we could prevent the local governments from tendering if it is in direct competition with local businesses.
Chairperson (interpretation): Was that a question?
This was discussed by the private contractors who do not want possible contracts to be taken on by the hamlets, but the hamlets also believe they will be able to generate more revenue if they are able to take on contracts at the community level.
If this bill goes through, I believe that the problem will be resolved.
For the private businesses, I think that there has to be some sort of protection for the local contractors but we have to look for a better system.
In the previous draft, it was stated that an amendment was required to meet this concern according to these suggestions that were made by the Standing Committee.
This is what is in front of you.
That is very interesting to hear and in most hamlets, the revenues cannot keep up with the expenditures because they lack sources of revenue like taxes or economic development to generate revenue.
Other than the ability to create revenue from developing subdivisions, there is not much else.
In these days of drilling piles, the hamlets are losing yet another source of revenue.
Two days ago we heard the budget speech that the hamlets are going to be getting increased financing from the government.
I am sure that this issue of allocation to the needy communities has been previously discussed and dealt with.
Has this been properly reviewed?
Again, this is being reviewed by the finance department and they are reviewing the municipal government budget allocations.
The individual who is doing this review just walked in, the chairman of the financial review committee, Shawn Maley.
(interpretation ends) My Assistant Deputy Minister has arrived and is sitting over there so I just wanted to recognize him for that.
(interpretation) And Mr. Chairman, we are concerned about the budgets of the hamlets.
We have put in a different system where we monitor these financial statements, to make sure that the hamlets are not in a deficit situation and where improvements can be made in their finances and how they can generate more revenue.
We have amended clauses here where the hamlets will be given the authority to generate revenue.
There are also opportunities for other sources of revenue outside of the legislation.
Chairperson (interpretation): Thank you very much Mr. Iqaqrialu for your questions.
In regards to this bill, we have been working on it for a long time and we have yet to assent either bill 23 or bill 24.
One is the Cities, Towns and Villages Act, and the one is the Hamlets Act where we have made a various changes through this Standing Committee.
I am not sure how the communication link is maintained with the hamlets and this Standing Committee.
Mr. McLean is the chairperson for this Standing Committee who is reviewing these two bills and recommendations have been made and incorporated into the bill.
The Nunavut Association of Municipalities is the lead organization representing the municipal interests.
How closely do you work with the Nunavut Association of Municipalities?
The Nunavut Association of Municipalities had their annual general meeting and when they had their AGM, they discussed the bills and also reviewed the proposed changes.
When the Nunavut Association of Municipalities meets, we send a copy of these bills to their executive committee.
We have had correspondence given to the hamlets.
The Standing Committee has reviewed the whole bill.
That is what we have been doing, consulting with these various entities.
Is it the Standing Committee who has to provide the information to the affected parties or whose responsibility is it to consult with the local governments to see if there are any concerns over the draft legislation?
Is it the Standing Committee or your department who has to consult with the communities to ensure their concerns are heard?
You partially mentioned that and I want clarification on the matter.
I am sorry you misunderstood me.
The Standing Committee makes recommendations for changes and they give us their recommended changes, which we then pass onto the communities.
This was also sent to them, although this is the last draft already.
The community SAOs have been included along with the Deputy Minister, the Mayors and the Justice Department, Lootie Toomasie and other individuals.
But of course, it is up to the Standing Committees to review the bills and recommend changes and they also have discussions with the communities.
It is also part of their responsibility to get the information out there but our department is primarily responsible for putting the information out there.
It is our collective responsibility to pass along the information to the affected individuals.
In January, we had a meeting with the Minister to give us a briefing on the recommendations to the bills.
When did the hamlets see the final version of the bills?
I have been working with the mayors association, with the Nunavut Association of Municipalities.
They are the main body representing the hamlets and included are the mayors and their SAOs.
Did we want to start our clause by clause review of Bill 23?
Mr. Chairman, I just noted in the Minister’s opening comments on the second page where it says that communities have the authority to take greater charge of their own affairs and work to achieve their specific priorities.
Is this ensuring that municipal governments have the capacity in the future; is this the principal purpose of these amendments?
I just want to let the Minister know ahead of time that there are some specific questions that I will be asking in relation to the power given to the city under the Cities, Towns and Villages Act, where the City of Iqaluit would fall under as far as raising funds beyond the ratepayers and specifically where that is in the act.
Also when we get into it, I will be asking on the cities ability to collect development costs and charges or any other off site stuff, levies and in determining if they have the ability to do that.
Mr. Chairman, the fact that most people have been listening to the media lately and the city has passed a no-smoking by-law.
It was reported that this legislation would give them the ability to enforce that in private clubs and places like that.
I will be looking once we get into the actual bill at asking the Minister specifically where the clauses are in the act.
They said they are there.
I hope they are.
I think it is great to finally see a piece of legislation come out that does give the municipalities and the cities the authority, or the ability to have the authority to do the things that they want.
And not always having to fight tooth and nail with a government department to do what they want or to be able to get what they want.
(interpretation end) The Member has made a very good observation of the act and when we are going line by line, he will see where those clauses are and we can flag them where he wants in regards to revenue for tax based communities or cities.
I might be wrong, maybe Peter Alison can correct me on this, but I do not think there is anything in the act for enforcing the no-smoking by-law in private clubs.
It might but I am not sure if it is in our legislation, for enforcing the no-smoking for private clubs, or private businesses.
I am not sure where that it.
Maybe Michael you can answer that.
(interpretation) Mr. Chairman, I believe your legal counsel can respond to that question regarding the no-smoking by-law portion in private clubs or private businesses.
Chairperson (interpretation): Mr. Chandler, our legal counsel.
Mr. Chandler: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Possibly if you continue on with the question and give me a chance to look at the act, I will try and have an answer in a few minutes.
In regards to the no-smoking by-law, could you elaborate a little further?
Mr. Chairman, I know it has been in the media for a while now that the City of Iqaluit passed the no-smoking by-law banning smoking in all public places and since then, the Workers’ Compensation Board for Nunavut and the Northwest Territories has been in the media saying they are looking at introducing a ban in all work places.
One of the concerns, or one of the things that was raised during the by-law debate and in the media, was the fact that there are private clubs that the city could not enforce its by-law under.
It was reported in the media that this legislation would give them the power to do that.
And that is what I am looking for clarification on.
Mr. Tootoo: Thanks.
I do not even know if we can give Mr. Chandler a few minutes to find it or if the Minister’s staff have been able to find it or whoever can find it first.
Chairperson (interpretation): Mr. Chandler.
Mr. Chandler: If you could look through the Amendments in the Bill, Subsection 54.2 (a).
Mr. Chairman, maybe for the sake of these concerns, when we get to that section in the Bill, that it be pointed out and for each of those two areas that I mentioned because I am not a lawyer.
I am not sure exactly where to find those specific things in there that I would like actually pointed out when we get to it in the Legislation.
Please introduce your official who just came into the Witness Table.
On my right is Shawn Maley, who has been working with the Community Government for a long time since the MACA days.
I invited him here to the Witness Table because of course he has been working on this for a long time.
(interpretation ends) That Tobacco Control Act has not been introduced yet in this legislature and the general powers under that are on the public health side.
So, that is probably under that, but when we get to that section, Mr. Tootoo can probably address you with that.
Just a comment I wanted to make in regards to having a no smoking bylaw in the private sector.
We have not introduced the Tobacco Control Act yet in this Legislation.
Would you like to go clause by clause now?
Bill 23, an Act to Amend the Cities, Towns and Villages Act and the Hamlets Act, an Act to Amend the reprint of the Act.
Chairperson (interpretation): Just let me know if I am going too fast.
Clause 4?
Chairperson (interpretation): Clause 5?
Chairperson (interpretation): Clause 6?
Chairperson (interpretation): Clause 7?
Chairperson (interpretation): Clause 8?
In Clause 8, it states on the fourth line, it states, A bylaw made under Subsection 3 applies to the General Election and cannot be amended until two elections have occurred since it was made unless repealed through Nunavut through the prior approval of the Minister.
There is no numbers under 8.
There is no sub-section 4 in clause 8.
I’m sorry it’s 24.
He said they were the same and there were 3 sections that were a little different within the act.
I’m sorry I already had noted that I would bring it up but I was referring to Clause 23.
We’re on page 123 in the Inuktitut version, we’re in clause 8.
Mr. Iqaqrialu (interpretation): I’m sorry, they’re not consistent.
I think in Bill 23 and 24, I think we should be referring to Bill 23.
Chairperson (interpretation): Yes, that’s what we’re dealing with.
Mr. Nutarak (interpretation): The bills in our binders have received second reading and that is the binder that we’re referring to.
Do we have an older copy or version of the bills?
Chairperson (interpretation): We’re dealing with Bill 23.
There is a binder under your area and someone will check to see if they’re consistent.
Perhaps I was going a little too fast for you.
Clause 8. Agreed?
Page 5. Clause 13.
Chairperson (interpretation): Clause 16. Turn the page again.
There is quite a bit in this section, in this clause.
I guess this is, I’m guessing this is corporate powers general section.
I’m just wondering if this is the area that gives that power to the municipalities to borrow and maybe within this section be specific with my questions to the Minister is, will the city of Iqaluit be given the normal powers that other cities have to raise dollars beyond it’s rate payers and I guess I’m looking for is, they indicated that would be the case and I just wanted to find out exactly where it is in here that it gives them the ability to do that if this in fact is the section that it's in.
Could the Member please give us an example of where the repairs would be at?
What example is he thinking about?
Let’s say, if the city wanted to be able to go and borrow money, or raise money some how, other than charging the poor rate payers and the city, to pay for stuff.
Will you give those powers?
I believe that other cities and other jurisdictions have the ability to do that.
I’m just wondering where in here exactly does it give the city the ability to be able to do that, to go and raise dollars beyond its rate payers in whatever form it chooses?
Perhaps, I’d say it’s on page 8, what he’s referring to.
Perhaps your legal counsel can respond to that.
The Members may wish to read section 150 of the amendment bill.
It’s on page 21 of the English version.
I believe that’s what the Member is looking for.
Sorry, I didn’t hear any of what you just said.
I heard what Michael said.
Maybe they forgot to flick the switch but I never heard what you said.
But if that’s where it is, I just didn’t want to approve a section and then find out after that that’s where my question was.
This is under Corporate Powers, general, I just wanted to ask if that was the area where these things that I asked are looking, or are they in the bill or not.
I’m a little bit confused as well.
Perhaps, Michael, if you get the question, you can respond to it.
Mr. Chandler: Okay, I’m unaware of the equipment here.
I’m assuming when the light is on, people can here me.
If the Member is asking how municipalities can raise money other than tax from the rate payers, I’m assuming the only other way would be through borrowing and section 150 of the amendments gives the municipal corporation the municipal taxing authority which is defined under another act, the power to authorize a corporation to borrow on a long term basis.
So, they could go out into the financial markets and attempt to find somebody who would be willing to give them money.
There are regulations that the Minister may put on the maximum amounts that can borrowed, but that gives them the power to borrow money.
That’s another way besides taxing the rate payers.
I wouldn’t know of another method.
I’m hoping that answers the Member’s question.
I believe that answers that part of my question.
The other one again, because I don’t know where it is in here and we’re going through it so quickly, I don’t want to approve something and then find out that’s where I should have asked the question earlier was that if the city chooses to bring in a bylaw to allow them to collect development cost charges or off-site levies to ensure that the growth in the community pays for the growth in the community and not the taxpayers and then end up having to pay for that new development, new growth?
I am just wondering, you know, if it is under this Section, to give them the ability and the authority to be able to do that.
Hon. Manitok Thompson: We are now discussing 37, I think, which was under General Comments.
If you read the (6), (5), (6) the Minister may by order extend the Long-Term Borrowing Bylaw for requirement for rate payer approval under the subsection and would have to.
That is where Mr. Tootoo is asking questions is 150 of 37; maybe when we get to that Michael will be able to explain it because what he is asking is right here.
We are in Clause 16, are you agreed?
Chairperson (interpretation): Turn the page to 12.
Their Legal Council will clarify.
Mr. Chandler: Thank you, Sir.
I believe that Mr. Tootoo asked to have pointed out to him about the by-law making powers of the municipality in relation to tobacco products and that is under Clause 18, Sub-Clause 54.2, Sphere of Jurisdictions.
That is the general area whereby you look to the powers or areas in which a city can make bylaws.
You know, if I could just have a moment, a city can only do what it is given the powers by the Legislature to do.
It cannot go off making powers that have not been given to them by this or making bylaws that have not been given to it by the statute, but the Legislature in turn can only give the city powers that it has itself.
So, it used to be that the powers that were given to a municipality to make bylaws were very strictly defined because they, with the fear that people would make bylaws that were not within the powers to make.
But this new way of writing it, broadens the categories or does not define them strictly in which municipalities can make bylaws.
That allows municipalities more scope for their by-laws but it does occasionally open up the problem.
The municipalities will pass by-laws that aren’t strictly speaking within their jurisdictions.
If I could just point to 52 4.2 sub-A.
The safety health and welfare people in the protection, people in properties, might lead someone on a municipal council to conclude that they could pass the law but in effect would be criminal law.
Well, a municipality cannot pass criminal law because it can only pass under the powers that it’s been given and only the Legislative Assembly of Nunavut can give it powers but even the Legislative Assembly of Nunavut doesn’t have the power to pass criminal law so it couldn’t have given it to the municipality in the first place.
Only the federal government does.
It’s just one of the things that the way the powers are split up in Canada.
So, there will always be questions, I believe, as to where the boundaries of particular by-laws lie, and whether they are actually within the jurisdiction of the municipalities or not.
But unfortunately, that can only be answered in the concrete after the fact passing of the by-laws.
The municipality may pass the type of by-law that is a criminal, in effect, criminal legislation and people will challenge that by-law.
But they could also pass something for the safety health and welfare of the people that go within their right to pass by-laws.
So, it’s very difficult in the abstract then to be able to say, yes this by-law is okay and that by-law isn’t.
I know that it may sound like a complicated thing but the way I translate it is that such a powers nesting one with it, the municipality can only have the powers the legislature gives and the legislature can only give it the powers it has and since certain powers don’t belong to the legislature, they can’t be given away to the municipality.
Other powers that do belong to the legislature can be given to the municipalities.
I’m sorry for the long answer but I hope that clarifies it a little bit.
So, I guess based on Mr. Chandler’s response and the Minister’s concerns I would imagine that 54.2(a) could be an area where the city could draw on its ability to be able to pass and enforce such a by-law in private clubs.
Mr. Chandler.
Mr. Chandler: I’m not used to the procedure here.
Possibly also under section 54.2(e).
After that by-law is passed, someone may challenge and say that its not within the jurisdiction of the city to do that, so the courts would have to decide at that point because they would then be looking at other legislation that the legislature may have passed another act to see whether they, it was thought that that power was given to the municipality.
From my other question on the ability for the city to collect or establish a development cost charges or off site levies, I’m just wondering if under 54(3) on I think its f. 54.3(f) and (g) are the areas that wouldn’t allow the city to be able to do those types of things.
I’m getting a little bit lost what page we’re on now but I guess we’ll deal with page 54.3.
Mr. Chairman, the city doesn’t have to go to the rate payers for … can’t hear?
Chairperson (interpretation): Okay, Mr. Tootoo.
Mr. Tootoo: I’m sorry I couldn’t hear the Minister.