EdinburghNLP/nunavut-hansard-plusplus huggingface dataset:
There are situations where, because of the truancy rates and so on, where some of them are 15 or 16 years old or they might be in Grade 8 or Grade 9, based on the peer passing that was in place in the past. They are still in Grade 8 or 9, but maybe they are in an occupational program.
For example, there used to be a Terry Fox program here where you had some people who had some academic issues with reading and writing but they could do other things.
I am not aware of any facts and figures or a correlation of that.
That would have to be ascertained by going to each individual school.
I agree with the member that to throw out things like that I don’t think it helps the debate.
I am not in the position to table it unless I have it, so what I will do is I will take the member’s comment seriously.
At the department we have some people right now making notes on this.
I will see what those numbers are if that is the case, and how do you ascertain that?
As a former Adult Educator I can tell you that I would do different testing that has been approved through adult basic education and English as a second language program which tested literacy levels.
Those types of tests are valid when taken on a spectrum that it has been used for.
Those cases are used by adults who take in life-long learning before and after the fact, and enhance the academics that may have been already learned.
The quick answer is as the member asked me if I am aware, I am not aware of any stats and figures.
However, if they department has made a note of it, then I can make that information known to the member if that is the case.
I just want to add pressure to that because I don’t believe that the Minister did not qualify my colleague’s comments that there are students that may be in high school that cannot read.
I think it is your responsibility to either qualify that or assert whether or not.
You now indicated to me that you are not aware.
My point is that I don’t believe these students can just walk into the high school and say I am going to take now Grades 9, 10, 11 and 12 even though I cannot read.
I don’t believe that any student can actually be qualified or accepted if that was a fact.
If it were to happen, if that were a fact, I don’t believe it is a student’s problem.
I believe that the management of the teachers and the principals of the schools would be more of a problem to me than the student who tries to walk into the high school without the ability to read and write in either of the official languages.
I don’t think it is exclusive to Inuit if that were the case.
That will be another very serious charge and I now would like you to say that you should make a memo to all the principals that no student that have qualified with the official languages, without the ability to write should be granted as a student in those schools in Nunavut.
Do you want to respond to that, Mr. Minister?
Hon. Ed Picco: We are getting into a debate on some of the issues on grading and academics.
Just very quickly, each student is an individual and each case has to be different.
As I said earlier, if a student only comes to school half the time if they only come in the morning and they miss all of the afternoon, and they are supposed to be in Grade 8 and they don’t pass, they fail the Grade for three years in a row.
Finally, they put them ahead to Grade 9.
Maybe that has occurred.
Sometimes you see that within the system with what they call peer passing or peer assistance.
However, if you say that you cannot read, you have to look at what the level is.
This is what the member I think is trying to say.
You can read at a Grade 3 level but you are in Grade 9 and you cannot read at a Grade 9 level.
That is not the fault of the teachers.
It depends on what the condition and the status of the child is.
Does the child have a learning disability that had not been identified?
Is there an issue with the parental structure at home?
So all those types of factors have to be taken into account, which is why you have to look at it in that concept.
But to say that there are students who are in school and cannot read, yes, there are probably lots of them in Kindergarten but you bring that cohort forward into Grades 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5, and if that student is attending 60, 70, 80, 90 or a 100 percent of the time, then I would suggest to you that the percentage would be that child would be doing very well.
If the child only shows up in the afternoon, shows up three times a week, shows up four times a month which happens a lot, not just at the high school level but the other grade levels, then that’s an issue.
Our teachers are consistent, they work very hard for our students and when there are issues identified with learning issues and learning disabilities, that’s why I said in this budget for example, there will be more assistance on special needs and remedial help.
So if the teacher identifies that little Eddy in Grade 3 is having some issues, then that teacher will have an opportunity for extra support for little Eddy and help him with his work.
So I hope that helps answer the member’s question, and again, I think we need to be focusing on the budget itself and how we move it forward.
There’s one more person.
This was also raised with my constituents where the students are being passed onto the next Grade.
I think this is getting too obvious in Nunavut in different communities even though it is the responsibility of the Department of Education.
I wonder where the problem lies where maybe the teachers don’t have enough authority.
Maybe we should give more authority to the teachers.
For some of us former students we were taught intensively and strictly.
Nowadays if we walked into a school, we would notice that the students are not getting enough discipline.
I don’t think we are supporting our teachers enough.
We should identify where the problem lies.
I wonder if the Department of Education has ever done studies on where the problem lies.
This is something I think the member is referring to what is commonly called peer passing, and that’s where itself, within the education system, if you are 14 years old and you are continuing to fail, now you are 15, now you are 16, now you are 17 and you are 17 or 18 year old is now in a grade with the 14 year olds because he continues to fail.
It’s better for the self-esteem and the opportunity for that child to learn if you continue to bring him forward instead of failing him.
That’s called peer passing or peer grading.
That’s something we could address in the new Education Act in Nunavut; how we deal with passing; how those types of things are facilitated.
Yes, I understand what the Minister said but we have to look at it from two ways; how the students are, and the abilities or powers for the teachers.
Maybe we don’t give them enough powers in the schools.
We are on G-7, please remember that. (interpretation ends) Do you want to take this Mr. Minister?
Those are the types that govern the issues and the legislative issues that would be in the new Education Act when we bring it forward, what are the designated powers.
So I would agree with the member on that comment.
We are on G-7.
Mr. Tootoo. (interpretation ends): Mr. Tootoo.
Just a couple quick questions here for the minister and I will put them both together.
I am just wondering, he mentioned this is the division where they are working and developing the new Education Act.
I am just wondering if he could provide us with an update on the development of it and enlighten us as to what specific consultation activities will be undertaken by the department in developing the new Act?
There has been a lot of work done preliminary to the next consultative stage of the Education Act already.
First of all very quickly, the Education Act, we are hoping to be in the position to introduce that in the Assembly in the spring of 2006.
A Legislative Coordinator has been hired.
Ms. Manitok Thompson, Mani is well known to the Members and to the people of Nunavut.
She has been the former Minister of Education and a former teacher.
She will be leading consultative meetings on a regional and community basis in the coming months.
We will start with the original draft of the old Bill, Bill 1 and move from there.
There is a Steering Committee that is already in place. This includes an Elders Committee from Department of Culture, Language, Elders and Youth and Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated as well as the Department of Education and the Association de Francophonie of Nunavut is involved.
We are also working on the Education Act website.
We are also looking at working on a booklet to assist Nunavummiut.
So a lot of the logistics as administrative work has gone into the process and planning.
Once the budget is approved in the House then Ms. Thompson and her group in earnest her consultative work, to consult Nunavummiut on the Education Act, itself.
So I hope that helps.
I just want to ask for the record.
Yesterday, I know the Minister indicated that they were going to look and take into account all the presentations and concerns that were raised the first time around.
I don’t know if it would be a good idea for Bill 1 and start from that because we know what Bill 1 is like.
It may be better to take a look at some of the concerns that were raised and go to the existing from there, food for thought.
We are on G-7. (interpretation ends) Education Branch Summary.
Total Operations and Maintenance, $982.000.
Page G-8.
G-8: it indicates adult programs and services under Business Plan from H-19 to 23.
They are replaced by FANS.
The funding for FANS is not very high for students.
While they are attending school they try and earn money elsewhere when they owe too much to FANS and if their income does not meet those requirements.
I wonder if they are given more assistance on top of that.
I would agree with the Member that there are issues around FANS.
But FANS is down on G-12 and I would be in a position to discuss that with the member when we are on G-12.
Chairman: My sincere apologies, Mr. Minister.
Mr. Barnabas (interpretation): Yes, I will raise this under G-12.
G-8.
Total Operations and Maintenance, $2,081,000.
In that Division of Corporate Services, there is an increase of one PY. I am wondering what the position is.
That is the re-establishment of our IT position for the department.
Anything further Mr. Tootoo?
We are on Total Operations and Maintenance. $2,081,000.
Going to G-10.
Under the Income Support Program which is under the minister’s portfolio and I am sure that he gets headaches having that as one of his responsibilities.
There has been some concern about people who are dependent on the Income Support Program and then there’s the claw back which created a big headache to some of the people in there who use those services.
We know that there are claw backs.
For example, the Co-op dividends are deducted from the income support that the recipients receive.
Do you have any additional reports on the claw backs and old age pensions and other sources of income that the recipients get?
Could the minister explain to us on exactly how this works?
For the record, could you please introduce your witnesses Mr. Minister?
I am joined by Ms. Sandy Teiman and Sandy is the director for policy and programs under the income support branch.
She has been at this field for many years and many of the members recognize her for her continuous appearance during budget time in the House.
So I would like to take this opportunity to welcome Ms. Sandy Teiman to the table.
Chairman (interpretation): Welcome.
If you would respond to Mr. Curley’s question, Mr. Minister.
First of all, I think the members of this House should be quite pleased in that in less than 12 months if this budget goes forward, we have actually increased the income support amount by over 15 percent for the first time.
So I think the members should take some leadership and pat themselves on the back for that.
At the same time in this budget, the issue of claw backs have started to be developed and be dealt with.
The first claw back was on the, and it’s still in place until this budget goes through, was in place for the Co-op dividends.
In that case, any money that was received from the Co-ops, lets say a $3,000 as a patronage dividend that meant that that total amount would then come off the income support.
So instead of getting a check for the full amount, they would claw back that amount of the patronage dividend.
That’s basically what the claw back means.
In this case on the Co-op amount, we are proposing that the patronage dividend no longer be accounted for as income, it’s an unearned income and thus it would not come off their income support amounts.
When we look at other benefits under the program for example, straight income support or indeed as the member has talked about the old age pension amounts, and so on, the territorial supplement amounts, and those are still subject to claw backs.
For example, if someone won bingo that could be clawed back on their income.
We had some issues with that.
I made the point at one point with some of the members here that if I won bingo in Iqaluit at the Elks, a lot of people might not know that but if you won $10,000 bingo in Coral Harbour, everyone would know you won it.
So we could claw it off in Coral Harbour because everyone would know about your winnings, but they probably would not know about it in Iqaluit or one of the larger communities.
So is there fairness there?
We had another case where a parent was living in Ottawa and paid for two tickets to bring his grandchildren down to Ottawa so he could see them, then when the kids went back to the community the mother and the two kids, they were told; look, you just got a gift of whatever the ticket cost was and thus their income was clawed back.
So those are some of the issues that we are trying to deal with right now, we’ve moved on to patronage dividends.
I would be very pleased to accept a recommendation from the Standing Committee of the House during this budget debate, that the department review claw backs as the members said, and see what we can do about it at some point.
Like the members did on the Co-op dividends with the help with the members, that we were able to move that forward coming out of the Arviat caucus.
Mr. Chairman: Thank you.
Mr. Curley: I would like to get the witness as well that say, the minister to see if she has any further comments on that because it is a really complex issue.
It is not so much that I want to change it or anything.
It is important that the recipient fully understands exactly, what is subject to claw back and what is not subject to claw back, because most of the time the lack of information or understanding really creates a problem to those dependent on income support system.
Mr. Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Curley.
All of the items that are considered claw back or reduction of income support are under regulation.
We carried those regulations over from the Northwest Territories and it takes time to make those changes.
Every time a regulation gets changed for these types of things, we have to go forward for a budget change because it costs money to change the Income Support program.
So we are working away bit by bit at it and the dividends were a big one to be able to have it considered exempted income.
There are over 21 different types of exemptions under the Income Support program and it’s understandable that most income support recipients don’t understand what’s clawed back, what’s half claw back, what’s not clawed back?
We do have a communications package in place and the income support workers are fully briefed on the regulations.
For the benefit of the members, it might be important for the members to be provided with a copy. We don’t have to table it but just say we do have a copy in our file because we do get subjected to a lot of telephone calls, and so on.
I want to go to who now qualifies for income support; this is another huge area that really Members of the Legislative Assembly in communities get daily telephone calls pretty well, in some occasions.
I had one constituent who literally was grieving because under doctor’s orders and because of health reasons, a young man who wasn’t allowed to work based on the injury not so much from an injury from work, but was born that way, pretty weak.
Mrs. Ipkarnaq’s son, Mr. Ipkarnaq, the guy would try to work but he was under orders by doctors not to work, and yet he never did qualify through local for income support nor any other.
How does an individual in that state get any attention?
Mr. Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Curley. Ms. Teiman.
I’m quite surprised at that Mr. Curley, that the person would be denied.
Under income support legislation any one with the age of 18 and over is entitled to apply and there is an assessment done on a monthly basis.
If that person has a doctor’s certificate that says they can’t work for work related accident, that puts them off the job or some sort of mental impairment or anything like that, as long as we have a doctor’s certificate on file, there should have been no reason for that person to be disqualified from income support, unless they are receiving income from the federal government or another pension plan.
Mr. Curley: I appreciate the response I certainly understand that, but I know that even the mother did cry when they telephoned me.
But I, as myself as a Member of the Legislative Assembly, just couldn’t go and try to change the local social workers.
My thinking in that regard is, not only should the Members of the Legislative Assembly be aware of who qualifies and who doesn’t.
Like you indicated there are so many programs out there.
I believe that social workers need annual leave workshops to deal with cases of that kind because they’re sitting there with outdated procedures and policies and I once referred to the social workers that now need compassion into it.
It’s so standard now that they just go through the regulations quickly and there is no compassion or communication to that effect.
I did call a young man to try and get me the record.
He had given up on getting any assistance, they just let him go but actually he’s not mentally impaired.
He’s sharp, he’s willing but he has a weak spine and everything.
He will try and work.
At that expense, he works pretty hard.
I’m really appealing not only for him, but, there are many other cases out there because there is a lot of information.
I really believe that your social workers work really hard and I think they need more input and more training.
At least bring up to date exactly who qualifies because I won’t want to cast any doubt on many of the hard working individuals.
And therefore, I personally have not intervened with them because I try to let the process go through.
So, if you will try and agree that there needs to be additional workshops maybe that would really help us out with our people.
I do have one more question after that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Minister or Ms. Teiman.
My understanding is that we have had two regional conferences with workshops for training that the member was talking about.
There will be another one this March, so that is being followed up.
Also, the job as the member had said is very stressful in all of our communities when you’re an income support worker because of issues around appeals, denials and so on.
We respect that and we acknowledge that.
I had one more question with respect to, a couple of them actually.
I didn’t ask how the income support earner had acquired some dollars.
They are sitting and saving it.
Whatever little saving she can get, whether it’s some part of the income that she saved from the income support and was saving for transportation in the summer months, like ATVs with a person who is not 100 percent able to walk carrying groceries, someone that needs transportation, so she had saved up about $500 in one account.
Your workers found out about it and now he did not qualify.
She phoned me crying.
Here was an elder who was crying.
What can we do for people who save a bit of their income from that and elect to put part of their dollars into it or is absolute zero, you don’t qualify. We can’t do anything about that.
Same thing with furniture, so say these people can not even save for furniture.
What can we do for those people who are provided with housing or beds that are due for replacement?
I can’t comment on the veracity of the comments and what was held back and so on and what was allowed under the system.
There are policies and procedures in place.
So, I’ll ask Ms. Teiman if she could probably go through in those two specific instances that the member relayed, one on the furniture and the other on the ATV and give us an overview of exactly what occurred from the income support worker’s perspective, when she does the assessment on that client’s file.
That way, the members can have a better understanding on where it’s coming from.
So, we’ll ask Ms. Teiman to respond on both those cases.
Please, Ms. Teiman.
In the case of the furniture situation, if we have someone who received gifts or gratuities, or bingo winnings or items like that, we do allow them to use that funding towards purchasing furniture and all they have to do is show the Income Support worker the receipts.
So, if somebody wants to use that to buy a washing machine, so as long as we see the receipts, then that is fine.
We also provide a furniture allowance under Income Support to those who qualify.
Anybody who walks through the door as an assessment on a monthly basis, so the different types of income is taken into account.
So that is the case of the furniture.
For the person who saves money and has it in the bank account, it is a really tough question because Income Support is a program of last resort.
So you are not supposed to come to our doors if you are able to save money and I guess the premise right across the country.
Unfortunately as the assessment stands, and if the person has savings, then we discount that from Income Support.
I don’t know if I will be asking a question that is on the same line as the page.
The elders who receive pensions are always short of money and they don’t have any other opportunities to make money and pay their bills, their children and grandchildren depend on them.
As I have heard that there is going to be some assistance from the federal government for the elders.
Will you be increasing the program for elders?
Right now, when a person is a senior citizen and receives a comparable senior citizen’s allowance from the federal government and that person is also eligible for a Territorial Elders’ Support that is called the Territorial Senior Supplementary Benefit.
The current benefit is a $135 a month.
The federal government announced in the budget that there is modest increase for elders across Canada, including Nunavut.
Right now, there are 587 seniors in Nunavut.
So in all of Nunavut there are 587 that receive the old age pension guaranteed income supplement and the Nunavut Senior Citizen Supplement Benefit is across Nunavut.
One of the things that the department does on an on-going basis is conduct review of the current rates to determine whether or not there are enhancements required in the program.
Chairman (interpretation): Does that answer your question, Mr. Arreak?
Thank you for looking into this.
Also, are you going to do some kind of research or study because the seniors can’t keep up with the cost of living?
Are you going to do some kind of research on that?
The department will do a current review and current rate structure that are in place to see if there is a need for enhancements through that program.
So the quick answer to the member is yes.
This section here, I know that it says responsibility for overall policy development.
I have been raising this with the minister since last year about maybe taking some of this funding and developing another program for remote work assistance program.
I mentioned yesterday that it might require a policy change.
For the information of members, several years ago when I was with another organization, we prepared a report and crunched a lot of numbers to show that if we used 20 percent of the funding under a program like this, it would generate substantial returns to the government in terms of putting people to work and collecting taxes.
You would receive your money back ten times over.