If a tree falls in a forest - wikipedia If a tree falls in a forest For the 2011 documentary, see If a Tree Falls : A Story of the Earth Liberation Front. A fallen tree in a forest `` If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound ? '' is a philosophical thought experiment that raises questions regarding observation and perception. Contents 1 History 2 Metaphysics 2.1 The possibility of unperceived existence 2.2 Knowledge of the unobserved world 2.3 The dissimilarity between sensation and reality 2.4 Buddhist perspectives 2.4. 1 Tibetan 2.4. 2 Zen 2.4. 2.1 Hui - neng 's Flag 2.4. 2.2 Hui - neng Receives The Dharma 2.5 Hinduism 3 In popular culture 4 See also 5 References History Philosopher George Berkeley, in his work, A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge ( 1710 ), proposes, `` But, say you, surely there is nothing easier than for me to imagine trees, for instance, in a park (... ) and nobody by to perceive them. (... ) The objects of sense exist only when they are perceived ; the trees therefore are in the garden (... ) no longer than while there is somebody by to perceive them. '' ( It is worth noting that the quote from section 45 is arguably a statement of an objection to Berkeley 's view, and not a proclamation of it. ) Nevertheless, Berkeley never actually wrote about the question. Some years later, a similar question is posed. It is unknown whether the source of this question is Berkeley or not. In June 1883 in the magazine The Chautauquan, the question was put, `` If a tree were to fall on an island where there were no human beings would there be any sound ? '' They then went on to answer the query with, `` No. Sound is the sensation excited in the ear when the air or other medium is set in motion. '' This seems to imply that the question is posed not from a philosophical viewpoint, but from a purely scientific one. The magazine Scientific American corroborated the technical aspect of this question, while leaving out the philosophic side, a year later when they asked the question slightly reworded, `` If a tree were to fall on an uninhabited island, would there be any sound ? '' And gave a more technical answer, `` Sound is vibration, transmitted to our senses through the mechanism of the ear, and recognized as sound only at our nerve centers. The falling of the tree or any other disturbance will produce vibration of the air. If there be no ears to hear, there will be no sound. '' Albert Einstein is reported to have asked his fellow physicist and friend Niels Bohr, one of the founding fathers of quantum mechanics, whether he realistically believed that ' the moon does not exist if nobody is looking at it. ' To this Bohr replied that however hard he ( Einstein ) may try, he would not be able to prove that it does, thus giving the entire riddle the status of a kind of an infallible conjecture -- one that can not be either proved or disproved. The current phrasing appears to have originated in the 1910 book Physics by Charles Riborg Mann and George Ransom Twiss. The question `` When a tree falls in a lonely forest, and no animal is near by to hear it, does it make a sound ? Why ? '' is posed along with many other questions to quiz readers on the contents of the chapter, and as such, is posed from a purely physical point of view. Metaphysics The possibility of unperceived existence Main article : George Berkeley Can something exist without being perceived ? -- e.g. `` is sound only sound if a person hears it ? '' The most immediate philosophical topic that the riddle introduces involves the existence of the tree ( and the sound it produces ) outside of human perception. If no one is around to see, hear, touch or smell the tree, how could it be said to exist ? What is it to say that it exists when such an existence is unknown ? Of course, from a scientific viewpoint, it exists. It is human beings that are able to perceive it. George Berkeley in the 18th century developed subjective idealism, a metaphysical theory to respond to these questions, coined famously as `` to be is to be perceived ''. Today meta - physicists are split. According to substance theory, a substance is distinct from its properties, while according to bundle theory, an object is merely its sense data. The definition of sound, simplified, is a hearable noise. The tree will make a sound, even if nobody heard it. The definition states that sound is a hearable noise. So the tree could have been heard, though nobody was around to do so. Knowledge of the unobserved world Main article : Observer - expectancy effect Can we assume the unobserved world functions the same as the observed world ? -- e.g., `` does observation affect outcome ? '' A similar question does not involve whether or not an unobserved event occurs predictably, like it occurs when it is observed. The anthropic principle suggests that the observer, just in its existence, may impose on the reality observed. However, most people, as well as scientists, assume that the observer does n't change whether the tree - fall causes a sound or not, but this is an impossible claim to prove. However, many scientists would argue as follows, `` A truly unobserved event is one which realises no effect ( imparts no information ) on any other ( where ' other ' might be e.g., human, sound - recorder or rock ), it therefore can have no legacy in the present ( or ongoing ) wider physical universe. It may then be recognized that the unobserved event was absolutely identical to an event which did not occur at all. '' ( this apparent quote has no attribution or reference and none can be found online with reasonable effort ). Of course, the fact that the tree is known to have changed state from ' upright ' to ' fallen ' implies that the event must be observed to ask the question at all -- even if only by the supposed deaf onlooker. The British philosopher of science Roy Bhaskar, credited with developing critical realism has argued, in apparent reference to this riddle, that : If men ceased to exist sound would continue to travel and heavy bodies to fall to the earth in exactly the same way, though ex hypothesi there would be no - one to know it This existence of an unobserved real is integral to Bhaskar 's ontology, which contends ( in opposition to the various strains of positivism which have dominated both natural and social science in the twentieth century ) that ' real structures exist independently of and are often out of phase with the actual patterns of events '. In social science, this has made his approach popular amongst contemporary Marxists -- notably Alex Callinicos -- who postulate the existence of real social forces and structures which might not always be observable. The dissimilarity between sensation and reality Main article : Qualia What is the difference between what something is, and how it appears ? -- e.g., `` sound is the variation of pressure that propagates through matter as a wave '' Perhaps the most important topic the riddle offers is the division between perception of an object and how an object really is. If a tree exists outside of perception then there is no way for us to know that the tree exists. So then, what do we mean by ' existence ', what is the difference between perception and reality ? Also, people may also say, if the tree exists outside of perception ( as common sense would dictate ), then it will produce sound waves. However, these sound waves will not actually sound like anything. Sound as it is mechanically understood will occur, but sound as it is understood by sensation will not occur. So then, how is it known that ' sound as it is mechanically understood ' will occur if that sound is not perceived ? Buddhist perspectives Tibetan from The Thirty - Seven Bodhisattva Practices by Ngulchu Thogme Zangpo, `` 22 Appearances are one 's own mind. From the beginning, mind 's nature is free from the extremes of elaboration. Knowing this, not to engage the mind in subject - object duality is the bodhisattva 's practice. '' Zen Hui - neng 's flag There is a well - known story of Hui - neng, a well - respected Buddhist monk who later became known as the founder of the Zen school, who one day happened to be passing by two monks. `` Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind. One said, `` The flag moves. '' The other said, `` The wind moves. '' They argued back and forth but could not agree. The Sixth Ancestor said, `` Gentlemen ! It is not the wind that moves ; it is not the flag that moves ; it is your mind that moves. '' The two monks were struck with awe. '' - The Mumonkan Case 29, translation by Robert Aitken Hui - neng receives the dharma One day the monks at Huang - mei monastery were instructed to write a stanza in order that their master Hung - jen might decide who would inherit the dharma throne. All of the monks assumed that a certain senior disciple Shen - hsui would win and thus did n't even bother writing stanzas. Shen - hsui assumed he would win too, and wrote the following stanza on the monastery wall : The body is a Bodhi tree, the mind a standing mirror bright. At all times polish it diligently, and let no dust alight. Due to the danger surrounding him if he were to openly challenge the senior monk Shen - hsui, Hui - neng went out one night while it was completely dark and wrote the following stanza in secret : Bodhi originally has no tree. The bright mirror also has no stand. Fundamentally there is not a single thing. Where could dust arise ? Later, master Hung - jen saw this stanza and reaffirmed that he who had written it had indeed opened his mind 's eye. Finding it was Hui - neng, master Hung - jen then gave Hui - neng the secret dharma teachings of their lineage, which Hui - neng says completely opened his mind, and gave the young Hui - neng the dharma robe and stick, symbolizing his status as Patriarch of the lineage. Hung - jen told Hui - neng that he must then flee the monastery for fear of Shen - hsui and his followers killing Hui - neng. Hui - neng did as he was told and then later returned from living with some hunters to become The Sixth Patriarch and pass on The Dharma in such forms as The Sutra Spoken by The Sixth Patriarch. Hui - neng also started the Sudden School which taught that Mind is realized instantaneously while Shen - hsui started the Gradual School which taught, similar to his stanza above, a sort of dust - wiping meditation. Zen today embodies Hui - neng 's Sudden School style, particularly with Satori. Hinduism The ancient Hindu texts, the Vedas and the Puranas, have defined several theories of creation -- one of them being the ' Drishti - srishti - vada ' ( Drishti = Sight, Srishti = Universe, Vada = Theory ), which puts forth the argument that the universe, or that which is seen, arises only after the seer, and has no independent existence apart from the seer. The very name of the theory is derived from the order of precedence of sight and the seen -- first there is sight ( ' Drishti ' ) and then there is the seen ( ' Srishti ' ). The famous 20th century Tamil saint Sri Ramana Maharshi, also made numerous references to the world being only a concept in the mind. `` The mind is like akasa ( space ). Just as there are the objects in the akasa, so there are thoughts in the mind. The akasa is the counterpart of the mind and objects are of thought. One can not hope to measure the universe and study the phenomena. It is impossible. For the objects are mental creations... The universe is only an object created by the mind and has its being in the mind. '' ( Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, pp. 478 -- 479 ). `` The shrutis ( a subdivision of the Vedas ) and the sages say that the objects are only mental creations. They have no substantive being. Investigate the matter and ascertain the truth of the statement. The result will be the conclusion that the objective world is in the subjective consciousness. '' ( TWSRM, p. 479 ). In popular culture Canadian songwriter, social activist and environmentalist Bruce Cockburn poses the question in the chorus of his 1989 song `` If a Tree Falls '' and frames it with his lyrics as a pressing question regarding the cause and effect of deforestation. Washington - state - based wilderness conservatory Northwest Trek used a shortened form of the quote in its mid-1970s television advertisement, as such : `` There is no sound unless someone is there to see it or hear it. Experience it at Northwest Trek. '' See also Counterfactual definiteness Descartes ' dream argument Epistemology Object ( philosophy ) Observer effect ( physics ) Kōan Ontology Schrödinger 's cat Principle of locality References Jump up ^ A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, 1734. section 23. Jump up ^ A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, 1734. section 45. Jump up ^ Whether Berkeley thought objects continued to exist when unperceived by finite minds, and if so, in what manner, is the subject of serious debate among Berkeley scholars. Jump up ^ The Chautauquan, June 1883, Volume 3, Issue 9, p. 543 Jump up ^ Scientific American, April 5, 1884, pg 218. Jump up ^ Mann, Charles Riborg and George Ransom Twiss. Physics. Scott, Foresman and Co., 1910, p. 235. ^ Jump up to : `` What is Philosophy ? -- Analysis '', Plymouth State University, Philosophy Department Jump up ^ Bhaskar, R. ( 2008 ( 1975 ) ), A Realist Theory of Science, London : Verso, p. 21. Jump up ^ Bhaskar, R. ( 2008 ( 1975 ) ), A Realist Theory of Science, London : Verso, p. 13. Jump up ^ Marsh, D. ( 2002 ), `` Marxism '', in Marsh D. Stoker, G. ( Eds. ), Theory and Methods in Political Science, Basingstoke : Palgrave Macmillan, p. 159. Jump up ^ Marsh, D, & Furlong, P. ( 2002 ), `` Ontology and Epistemology in Political Science '', in Marsh D. Stoker, G. ( Eds. ), Theory and Methods in Political Science, Basingstoke : Palgrave Macmillan, p. 31. Jump up ^ Callinicos, A. ( 2006 ), The Resources of Critique, Cambridge : Polity, pp. 155 -- 158. Jump up ^ Watts 1962, pp. 111 -- 113 Jump up ^ A Buddhist Bible, `` Sutra Spoken by The Sixth Patriarch '' Retrieved from `` https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest&oldid=812540716 '' Categories : Fictional trees Riddles Philosophical problems Thought experiments in philosophy of mind Talk Contents About Wikipedia Español فارسی עברית Македонски Nederlands Português Русский Svenska ไทย 中文 Edit links This page was last edited on 28 November 2017, at 12 : 14. Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution - ShareAlike License ; additional terms may apply. By using this site, you agree to the Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. Wikipedia ® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization. About Wikipedia

Question: who said if a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it
Answer: Charles Riborg Mann; Charles Riborg Mann and George Ransom Twiss; Philosopher George Berkeley