Ratel, you've come into this debate later than most so you may have missed the admin warning about uncivil remarks - ie, users will be blocked. Indeed, I know of one editor here who was subsequently warned personally. Many who may have been uncivil have since made an excellent effort to raise the standard here. Would be nice to keep it that way. "...take it up with the management, bub..." in my opinion is not particularly civil nor does it foster a spirit of collaboration, rather the opposite. thanks