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 2010 team roster 

Moved from User talk:Kevin McE

Hi there. I wonder if you might be able to clarify your reason for making this edit where you cited WP:CRYSTAL. I'm not clear on why the information you removed is inappropriate. Thanks.   

I don't know what needs to be explained.  We cannot say with certainty that those riders will ride for that team next year, because we do not know the future.  An encyclopaedia reports facts, not expectations.    

Hi again. Firstly, I moved your comment back here to keep this in one place so it is easier to follow. I am still not clear exactly what at WP:CRYSTAL makes this content inappropriate. This is not a predicted team roster, it is verifiable and very likely to be accurate since the chance of Team Sky confirming they have signed a contract with a rider for 2010 and then that not happening must be very slim.   

It is verifiable that these men have signed to ride for that team next year, that is in the preceding paragraph and I would not challenge the appropriateness of stating that.  A 2010 roster (not a word that should be used on an article about a UK subject, but that is a different matter) is not something that exists in 2009, and even as a speculative list, it is so incomplete as to be meaningless; it also does not use the cycling squad template which is standard for team articles, but these are not the point.  Returning to the Crystal balling issue, you say yourself that the chance of them not riding is very slim: you thus acknowledge that this is a possibility, and therefore their inclusion in the squad is not a definite fact.  Let's hope it doesn't happen, but Sky might go bust, or any one of the signed riders might have a career ending injury, before 1 January, in which case 2010 will arrive, they will not be part of the team, and the encyclopaedia will be guilty of having recorded an error.  Facts, not expectation.    

I will happily accept that the signing of a contract to ride for the team in 2010 doesn't mean that any of these will actually ride for the team in 2010 and that the team might not even exist. However, all these riders have been signed up to ride for the team in 2010, that makes them part of the squad for 2010. We're not simply expecting them to be, they are confirmed to be. Surely though, we would be speculating if we were to disregard that and suggest it might not happen. I think you are misinterpreting WP:CRYSTAL. I'd suggest that it makes it clear that it is perfectly acceptable to include details of future events providing the information is verifiable, as is the case here. If it turns out that any or all of these riders don't ride for Team Sky in 2010 then the Wikipedia article won't have been ""guilty of having recorded an error"" because it was an entirely accurate description of the situation at this time based upon the information available.   

I'm not saying that it won't happen, nor that it is not very likely, but that it is expectation, not fact.  You speak of verifiability, but life teaches us that the future is not verifiable.  If they were to die before the end of this year, they will not be in the 2010 team: the future is not confirmed.  An ""entirely accurate description"" of something that does not currently exist is not possible (and as a description, a 6 man top level racing squad is not entirely accurate).   

I find your position on this matter a little strange. You seem to want to defend the article from speculation but in doing so, seem to be introducing your own speculation that the team might not exist or the riders might change. The names that are being announced are for the 2010 squad, so it seems perfectly appropriate to describe the list as such. We can, and should, only base the article on what can be verified at the current time, and that is that the riders named are part of the team for 2010. The information we have at the current time says these individuals are confirmed to ride for the team in 2010 and our article is, and should, only ever be based upon information available at the time. I would note that, not only has another user reverted the change you made which I am concerned about here, but also that a further ten names have been announced