Hey, you're right. It's really very stupid to tag nominated templates within template bodies. That really looks dumb. I'm glad you pointed that out. I hope you will work with me to bring Netoholic around to our side of the table on this one  you know, he was here only six months ago  check it out  and perhaps with a little encouragement, he might come back.  

 But for now, our inflexible policy is to tag all templates right on their bodies. No exception is made for templates that are highly visible. Indeed, it could be argued that in such cases, it is even more vital to be sure that the largest number of users become aware that the nominated template is, indeed, up for deletion.  

 Please do not remove the prescribed tag from the nominated template until a decision has been made to retain the template. Thank you. —  09:18, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC) 

 == Let it be == 

 ::I have come to believe that {tfd} is entirely unnecessary and a menace to the project. I have not recently tried to alter the TfD process itself  as you have done  without the consent of others. I have merely nominated for deletion a template which I find is useless, dangerous, unattractive, and boring.  

 ::How big is this fight to you? You have attempted to reopen debate on {divbox}. Shall the matter be permitted to fester indefinitely? We have a policy and a workflow, and thus far, it has not been subject to edit war or seriously rude debate. Thus far, discussion has revolved around the proper place for, and for that matter, need for, {tfd}  the tag itself, not the process. And the debate over {divbox}, while not harmonious, ended without anybody screaming at anybody else that {divbox} was the anti-Christ, or its nomination for deletion equivalent to genocide.  

 ::Seven days is as long as a template is allowed to sit and stew; after that time, it is free to go peacefully. Do you want to call that into question, too?  

 ::As for tagging Template:Tfd, I'm sorry: {tfd} is not above the law. It is a template like any other, subject to all the same rules and the same level of scrutiny. You don't like what happens when it is tagged for deletion? Sweat it out like every other poor bastard with a dog in the fight. With any luck, a sudden surge of support for its deletion will not come in at the last minute, and you can then correctly remove the tag from the template, archive the discussion, and breath freely for another month.  

 ::Proposing Wikipedia:Votes for deletion itself for deletion is not relevant, or even illustrative. The action of nominating Template:Tfd for deletion does not call into question the page, Wikipedia:Templates for deletion. I think it's obvious that they are two separate and independent pages. Nor does the process of TfD depend inevitably on the tag {tfd}. For one, I have offered a new tag, , which is far more suitable for our purposes, as well as more attractive; for two, I am hardly convinced any tag at all is desireable; I am now leaning toward direct notification.  

 ::I despise threats, and I do not begin with you. Please allow me to believe I have given you sufficient notice that I view your recent actions in the harshest light. Despite all appearances of solidity, Wikipedia is a tiny, fragile ship afloat on a raging sea of chaos. We do not need to begin to violate policy simultaneously with editing that policy. It would take only a small number of sufficiently angry users to drag this project to a screeching halt. This is not a threat of mine whatever; but something I fear the subhumans will do if you  and I  give them sufficient cause to believe that the rule of common sense in harness with customary procedure no longer holds.  

 ::To risk annoying you with repetition, I am not threatening you: I will do such-and-such if you keep fooling with the way things are done. I am sharing my fears that if we persist in slugging it out, then our fight  together with the dozen similar feuds raging in one corner or another of this project's infrastructure  will eventually corrode and bring down the entire project upon our heads.  

 ::Let it be. I'll bet Netoholic will, too, if you do. He's too smart to go that far out on a limb. Let {divbox} go; and when its seven days have expired, I shall allow {tfd} its freedom, too. Perhaps you and I can then work together on ways to improve the entire process, and perhaps avert this kind of damn silly thing in future. —  09:18, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC)