, 27 August 2005 (UTC) 

 Hi, McC, welcome back to the kitchen! 

 *The consequence (according to the 1932 Otto Brok reaction, reported only in 1967 by Mowrer, was  inevitable war .Hitler preached it, Brok and anyone politically  sentient  understood . The Vatican  received all report necessary from a vast body of clerics , many of whom were attacked . 

 *The Holocaust was but an ancillary figure to that of the war designed by Hitler- but which fed off the  sickness of un-reconstructed germanity in the  Weimar era . I therefore include the figure accepted  to cover  the war years altogether. I think the extra 20 million Stalin liquidees on top of the 40 million actual Russian casualties should really enter , as the War was embraced by Stalin  with much more purpose than any Pius, and with a little bit more concentrated purpose than Hitler . It was  a very useful cover, and the overturning of the magisterium provided both anti-christs with their clothes .  

 *My verdict re: Hitler culpability is , no , he alone was neither solely culpable for the war nor  for the holocaust. The capitalist industrialists  and the Army officer  classes were also heavily responsible  .Mowrer certainly  would have  reported  at the close of 1932 his  second interview with Hitler . Go to Edgar Ansel Mowrer to read it in full .  But the answer is no re:Hitler . Hitler sought popular following and justification for his  project of death  to the Jew's, and Mowrer , in his 1933 Germany Puts The Clock Back , repeatedly quotes and describes and analyses the Nazi street slogan /speech slogan  of Perish the Jew .  If you like I can quote  endless pages where this slogan is reported . There can have been no popular misconception , I am sorry to have to correct . And ,for all we know , that Brok story  of Pius XI's   Centre Party destabilisation did travel by telegram to his Chicago headquarters in  1932. However  user's insistence on mispaced NPOV magnanimity , would traduce this  along with all source  against the sweet old vatican clerics . Come off it, there was a mental bargain, widely recognised , that Pius XI, a maybe justifiably  rabid anti-Soviet, knew exactly why Hitler was a good thing . This is why I, at any rate , will continue with your double effect question , which is extremely apposite . 

 *We may get to other  possible contemporary alternative courses of action yet , but first we shall deal with what did  transpire . Str1977 from the start produced the if they're gonna steal yr car-why not try and sell it to the thieves cheap, scenario . I could not , do not speculate on what you or I or he would do in the situation . However , McC , this is not the issue . The issue is whether these  highest clerics contumately risked  social justice , human justice ,(and the Magisterium]] in seeking bulwark against Communism . I say you are right to shift us towards double effect - I see it as the analysis of that which I always called The Question of The Law . As you know, I am there  , and you are there . We will return here when we have something to conclude , I imagine . 

 *Should Pius XI have known (Hitler)? Apart from my earlier answer , you know that Hitlerism was considered anti-Christian  up to this (March 1933) point . The ecclesiatical (German Hierarchy's) refusal of the sacraments to even those who followed Hitler and the Nazis is  the proof . The timeline gave you the actual date of change , and certainly alerted you to this  volte-face . By smingtings McC , I took you more seriously than this all . There was I thinking  you understood , and that yet you could see  justification . Seems to me  yon Wyss ,there, is tougher than you are .  

 [ The world , if not the payee bankers of Digiwiki here, owe you a debt of gratitude  I'm costing  them a few more bucks , and you are getting me to do so . Evidently Str1977 is trying to either get himself , or someone else, elected , he has gone so quiet . Seems Str cares more for  the CDU (ex-centre Party , German Tories, rightists than he does for his avowed  ....well I'll stop speculating. If I were the CDF, I would have been watching my pope's pages , I'd have copped on after that conference  I mentioned to Jimbo . It shows a lax attitude . Listen, you end it anytime you like-for yourself . I am not doing what I do for you or  for Str1977 .  You can walk away anytime , just be sure to take my Rfc with you , please . I don't understand why you would open yourself to all the potential comment , when you don't actually take  all this seriously . Ever since you didn't get a rapid summary , and then asked the  double effect question , you have just dug a greater pit . Strange  but never mind, it makes no difference to me whether you guys react or not , as this is , as always , the Question of The Law