" 

 == POV pushing on outlaw motorcycle clubs == 

 I appreciate all the great additions you've made to Wikipedia's motorcycle articles recently, and I know you're still getting the hang of how to edit. But I need to request that you cease trying to whitewash the criminal nature of the outlaw motorcycle club articles. When a club is only in the news for crime, and when law enforcement authorities have identified them as a criminal enterprise, then that's what we call them. When you change that to say ""some members have been convicted of crimes"" you sound like you are their defense lawyer. Lawywer's like to say ""my client allegedly stole, the police alleged there was a conspiracy, my client is accused of..."" blah blah. Wikipedia doesn't have to follow those rules and speak in weasel words. We can tell it like it is, without legal disclaimers.We get paid flacks from the marketing department of various companies always coming to Wikipedia trying to put their PR into articles, and what you're doing is motorcycle gang PR. It's called POV pushing. It's fine if you're talking about a club that is not known to be criminal, but almost every one of the Category:Outlaw motorcycle clubs wouldn't even have a Wikipedia article except that they are notable for crime. Just say what the sources say; don't act as the club's PR flack.If this does not stop, we will have to initiate a community discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard to try to come to a consensus. That's not really a bad idea anyway  several editors in the past have edit warred over the same thing, and it needs to be cleared up.    

 : From my point of view this is an unfair and ungrounded accusation as I have not actually removed any condemnatory material (except where it was a dead link and plainly superfluous, as in the fact supported by another live link) and, let's be honest about this, I know this is an area where you and a few others hold a strong POV or prejudice yourselves, as evident by your choice of discussion title. 

 :I am not interested in ""whitewashing"" and will not do so but I am pedantic about the finer details. Is every MC is a criminal organisation as some would have us believe? Plainly no and I doubt even you think that. For me, it is about accuracy, and you can see from my editing record that my interest in motorcycle has gone way beyond the narrow spectrum of ""outlaw"" interests and into area where I suspect one of them would never dream of touching, e.g. women and gay biking, so I am going to strongly rebuff your accusations.  

 : I am interested in all motorcycling being represented fairly, accurately and well. With all respect, where we first differed in the past over this area, I was being accurate and you were not paying attention to the detail because, as you have just stated, you were assuming that I was following the pattern of some previous editors.  

 :The is one only area where I can see we have differed  relates to, like it or not, where the majority of these clubs are legally incorporated entities. This means that they are legal persons in their own rights and so ""allegations"", ""accusations"" and actual court findings about individuals within the incorporation cannot be applied to the whole unless the whole has similarly been tried and found guilty, e.g. our recent difference over the El Forastero (which I have never actual heard off until yesterday). I looked at the references and they were definitely cases against individuals not the organisation, hence my editing to reflect the specific facts as reported. 

 : I consider this is a rule which should be applied wholesale across the Wikipedia, e.g. you cannot accuse ""McDonalds"" of committing crimes if, in fact, it was employees or board members which committed the crimes in the same way you cannot accuse ""all WWII Germans"" of being Nazis and yet this is basically what is going on. I can admit to not being entirely uptodate on the all legal proceedings against MCs but I do remember one very high level RICO-type case failing, which would prove the organization was establish with criminal intent, and haven't heard of many or even any others succeeding (their may be some, I don't know). 

 :I also referred to, and discussed on a talk page, the problems of one list which contained both 'allegations' and 'findings'. The problem I raised, which you did not answer, was the list included many future court cases but no one was paying any attention to the results of said court cases and updating them. Just because someone is accused of a crime and taken to court does not make them guilty of a crime therefore it must be reported as an allegation or accusation, not fact. 

 :And just to head off your obvio