Great Truth Claim of Baha'u'llah (Baha'i Order)

This is the same exact level and kind of engagement I was looking for. I appreciate you granting P1-5 and stating that it does establish that Bahaullah makes a claim and there are people that believe his claim. But I am working on taking this to the level, because given that in the P1-5 it is established that God is a manmade concept, it must follow that anyone that claims to be God is making an atheistic claim, and as a consequence, is make a truth statement. Given that it is a true statement, anyone else that believes in his truth statement has "ESTABLISHED" ("proof of establishement") his truth on earth and among mankind. The above paragraph, I am hoping, is logical and sound. As you can see, I have not made any supernatural claims so I need no supernatural evidence. If not, (if you uncover a flaw in my thinking) in future rounds I will be able to fine-tune it and perfect it, I feel. Because of Bladerunner's debate which took place first on this same topic, I am in a better position to respond to the rest of your counter-arguments, the reason for which I don't really understand because you already conceded for the sake of argument that my P1-P5 were already correct, I addressed these here: 1. In C1, you state that it does not seem to be the case that Baha'u'llah claims He is God. You first quote from Baha'u'llah directly praising "God" in the third person. You also imply this by referring to the Baha'i website which make mention of God as apparently a third party for whom Bahaullah is a "Manifestation". My defense is that in fact Baha'u'llah is talking about himself in the third person, and the Baha'i website are either intentionally or unintentionally either dissimulating or merely using Baha'u'llah's own tactic of sometimes referring to God in the third person. Here is what I mean: Elsewhere in his writings he has claimed to be the Essence of God (which is the subject of the quote you provided showing that a third party "God" exists according to Bahai writings). One example is this from an authoritatively translated tablet of Baha'u'llah: "From the letter "B" He hath made the Most Great Ocean to appear, and from the letter "H" He hath caused His inmost Essence to be made manifest. " [1] Here, Baha'u'llah is very clearly claiming to be the inmost Essence that is mentioned in the quote you provided. Also, as a clarifying point, the letter B and H are used by Baha'u'llah as a signature of his own name "Baha". This was actually common practice among the people of his time to use acronyms or short form of their names like this. In the third to last paragraph of the Kitab-i-Iqan Baha'u'llah signs the "letter" using the same two letters: "Revealed by the "B" and the "H. "" [2] Secondly, there are vast numbers of examples in Baha'u'llah writings where he talks about himself in the third person, in the second person, and in the first person. There are also many many quotes where Bahaullah speaks of "God" in the first person, in the second person, and in the third person. The conclusion is this: just because he is referring to someone in second or third person does not rule out that he is really referring to himself using a "voice" of a third or second party. What's more, Baha'u'llah switches between third and first person IN THE SAME SENTENCE in some cases, or in the same paragraph. Here is a striking example of this latter. I have used *** to highlight the striking shift: "Beware lest ye speak of duality in regard to ***My*** Self, for all the atoms of the earth proclaim that there is none other God but ***Him***, the One, the Single, the Mighty, the Loving. From the beginning that hath no beginning *** I *** have proclaimed, from the realm of eternity, that I am God, none other God is there save ***Me***, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. " [3] Clearly, Baha'u'llah claims to be God here in both first and third person! C2: I agree with you that the God mentioned in the Baha'i website is incoherent if you read it assuming that that God is actually being referred to. This is why I don't think such a God exists, and this is consistent with Baha'u'llah's own claim anyway, as I demonstrated above, so as such, God is only a reference to Baha'u'llah. This is why in my premise I already stated that "God" is a manmade concept. C2b: Agreed. C2c: Agreed. C3: This is a good point. But it is only necessary for one person to believe in him to sustain his atheistic truth statement. and 0.11% of the population is a lot more than that. C4. No, not belief. My reasoning is not belief. My reasoning is "Establishment". That which is established must be true at least for those among whom it is established, especially if the underlying beliefs are supportable. And by not making a supernatural claim, I only require my existence (as a follower of Baha'u'llah), to prove my case. Back to you, sir. And thanks again to Bladerunner for the first debate on this topic. [1] . http://reference.bahai.org... [2] . http://reference.bahai.org... [3] . http://reference.bahai.org...