god is not great

I thank Con for a spirited debate. We will have to continue this, or engage in another debate in the future. I'll try my best to address everything that Con has stated, and attempt to rebut his points. Con begins by thanking me for sharing my knowledge about god. It is strange that he is thanking me for something that I did not do. I am not claiming to have knowledge about a being whose existence can't be proved, I am only stating that the characteristics which this god's believers have attributed to him are logically inconsistent with his supposed actions, or lack thereof. "You begin by insinuating that God is 'omnipresent, then that means he watched Elisabeth Fritzl get tortured and raped for 24 years...,' your words implies God enjoys watching such events." No, they don't. I have not said anything remotely like that; you are simply putting words (or implications) in my mouth. The believers in god claim that he is omnipresent. If he is omnipresent, then this automatically means that he can see everything, including the torture of innocent people. Is it possible that he could be enjoying watching such events? Sure. Con cannot demonstrate that the opposite is true. I do not claim to know the mind of this being. I only claim to know the characteristics that have been attributed to this being by his believers (omnipresence, omnibenevolence, omnipotence, etc.) As it turns out, these are characteristics that have actually been attributed to god by his believers. "Pro went on to say, 'Over the course of our planet's existence, 99% of all species that have ever existed are extinct.' Pro, this is part of evolution, the machinery of God's hand in creation." If evolution is "the machinery of God's hand in creation", then it is a terrible method of creation and design. Am I not supposed to detect perfection from a perfect being? If I am supposed to detect perfection from a perfect being, then why is his method of creation demonstrably imperfect, seeing as how his supposed omniscience has looked forward to and continues to look forward to the constant annihilation of various species? If I created various forms of life and 99% of these forms went extinct, I would not expect anyone to call me a perfect designer. "Pro is all over the map, may I say galaxy, by stressing, 'The Andromeda Galaxy is going to collide with our Milky Way in about 3.75 billion years.' Pro, I hope you're not losing sleep over this event. Let me guess, we should 'blame it on' God. The phrase, 'blame it on,' seems to be the political correct response these days. In other words, play the victim card, woe is me, 'blame it on' God for not answering one's prayers." I am not losing sleep over this event and I have not asserted that we should "blame it on" god. If god exists, and he really has planned everything, as his believers state, then the future Andromeda-Milky Way collision event is automatically his responsibility. There's nothing to blame him for, if this is the case. And as I said before, and I'll repeat myself, I am not losing sleep over this event. I am just pointing out that it is a terrible design. "Why take Pro down this segment of human history influenced, in part, by the story of 'the god of Abraham?' Unbeknownst to Pro, he is enjoying the miracle from the fruits of technology, food production, and medicine, a result of an institution whose formation was influenced by following the greatness of God's perceived goodness via the story of 'the god of Abraham.' Perhaps, Pro should study the founding of the US, and during that journey, may come to find God." I would like to point out that nothing about the "philosophical and Constitutional foundations" demonstrate that god is great. I am not "enjoying the miracle from the fruits of technology, food production, and medicine" because the formation of a specific institution was influenced by a god I don't believe in, I am enjoying these things because science has made them accessible to me. The "greatness of god" isn't required. I fail to see what you are trying to assert when you say that I may be viewed as a "mouth piece for the Devil". Are you asserting that I am influenced by the Devil? If so, then I will concede that this could very well be true. I could be influenced by the Devil, but I doubt that to be the case. You're absolutely right, I will bounce back with the questions you have just provided. I think the answer to all of these questions is simple: god is not great. If he was great, he would actually help people some of the time. Where do I draw the line for god to step in? Nowhere, actually. A line need not be drawn. If god existed, it shouldn't be far beyond him to help some of the time. If it is true that this god exists, and if it is true that he is all-loving and perfect, why doesn't he ever help? He wouldn't have to end all suffering, but shouldn't a perfect being help stop a bit of it, especially if it's superfluous? Again, I say, if this is the best god can do, I'm not impressed. If this universe was designed by god, then he did an awful job designing it. "...scripture also defines the source of all evil is from the Devil (Pro disagrees with said scripture and 'blames it on' God)" Not once have I said anything remotely like that. It doesn't matter who the "source of all evil" is. I don't view the concept of the Devil as great, just as I do not view the concept of god as great. But I will say that I do find the Devil to be far less insane and genocidal than god. In scripture, the Devil barely kills anyone, but god seems to go on a constant killing spree. He kills thousands upon thousands of people, according to the scripture. If the god of Abraham existed, he would not be great. He would be an evil bastard, for the reasons I've stated. Evil bastards aren't great. "Perhaps, Pro should understand the story of 'the god of Abraham,' and study human nature over the reason why there is evil, while Pro plays the role of 'Devil's advocate' by condemning God." Perhaps I should understand the story of the god of Abraham, right? Is this not the same story that states that god will send me to hell if I do not believe in and worship him? Again, I ask, this is supposed to be a great being? Thank you for a very profound discussion, Con.