The existence of god

Some interesting points were made there but I'm afraid I spotted a major flaw in you premise which probably means you didn't have to type anything after Alvin Plantinga's model ontological argument (excluding the 'religion + suffering part of the debate) Point number 1 is a valid point. It is possible god exists. Point 2 is where it starts to get a bit iffy. 'possible worlds' is a bit of an ambiguous term. It doesn't really mean anything. Are we talking about worlds as in our world e.g. our planet or our we talking about the universe? So Assuming this is a pointless statement I could cut it off there but lets just go by the premise there may be some truth in it. Then we get on to number three. This is where your argument really becomes pointless and illogical. Just because 'god exists in some possible worlds' it doesn't mean 'god exists in all possible worlds'. Lets put it into a simple example so as to make it clear why it's fundamentally wrong and illogical. "If the first harry potter book exists on my bookshelf and my friends bookshelf (some possible bookshelves), it exists on all bookshelves" This is the same as your statement but the first harry potter book isn't on say my dads shelf (which is a real possible bookshelf). Or another example is that you can't say because some Irish people are ginger, all Irish people are ginger. That would be racist! (and not true for the sake of the argument). This means your premise is wrong so the rest of your argument has no substance or worth. Just in case this hasn't persuaded you the argument doesn't work, there is one more way. As your premise is (supposed to be) a logical series of steps to reach a conclusion, the variable 'god' can be replaced by anything. Now I could say it could be replaced by cheese for example. Ok that's all good. Cheese exists. But what if I say this: #1: It is possible that God doesn't exist #2: If it is possible that God doesn't exist, then God doesn't exist in some possible worlds #3: If God doesn't exist in some possible worlds, then God doesn't exist in all possible worlds #4: If God doesn't exist in all possible worlds, then God doesn't exist in the actual world #5: If God doesn't exist in the actual world, then God doesn't exist So it's the same thing. Therefore as my 5 steps and your 5 steps contradict even though they work by the same 'logic' therefore it isn't logic at all. Also, they can't possibly work together because if mine proves god exists, step one of yours is wrong and therefore the whole thing is wrong. It works the other way round too. To the point about religion causing suffering, it is most definitely possible for an idea to cause suffering. If i had the idea in my head I was going to have my feet boiled and cut off by some sadists, I would definitely be suffering in fear. Religion isn't an idea though. It is an existing thing. It is a system by which there are roles within the system (believer, church pastor etc etc) and beliefs in the system and resources. These figures say a lot about religion causing suffering as there is nothing else linking the countries other than percentage of athiets: The three poorest* countries in the world and the percentage of atheists in them. 1. Democratic Republic of Congo - 0% Atheist 2. Republic of Liberia - 0% Atheist 3. Republic of Zimbabwe - 0% Atheist The three richest** countries in the world and the percentage of atheists in them 1. USA - 12%*** Atheist 2. Japan - Between 40% and 85% Atheist 3. China - 59% Atheist See a pattern? * 'poorest' refers to average yearly earnings and money in government but also takes into account hundreds of other things such as access to housing, food and clean water. You could describe it at 'most third-world'. **Just like 'poorest', 'richest' takes into account these figures as well. 'Least third-world' *** The figure is likely to be higher than this as many didn't answer. Also the reason USA is at the top is likely to have something to do with its size and population ratio. Yes I agree there are some evil, evil people who are atheists such as Stalin. But it wasn't his atheism that drove him to be so evil whereas with the evil that comes from religion, it's often BECAUSE of the religion such as Bin Laden. I said I thought religion was ONE OF THE BIGGEST causes of suffering in this world; not the only cause of suffering and also religion itself not religious people. Thank you for reading I look forward to your response. Owen Eastwood