Ayn Rand was correct that self sacrifice (and even it's idea) destroys societies.

Ayn Rand was an complete b/c. I’m just saying this as a concession to point out that it doesn’t support my case or the Con case. Cult like, spiteful and a poor communicator in my view. That doesn’t detract from her ideas. I don’t think I’ll really site her books (I don’t think you need to read past The Virtue of selfishness which is one of the worst titles ever and unfortunately she basically did that on purpose) since I think the ideas carry outside supportive evidence when you may not like her fiction but I’d be curious to hear if others think that I’m accurately representing her ideas. From Webster: self–sacrifice : sacrifice of oneself or one's interest for others or for a cause or ideal Self-sacrifice is inherently unnatural and contradictory and therefore inevitably creates hypocrisy. Like any other being on earth we care naturally about our survival we can’t help it and we shouldn’t. Without a strong desire to live everyone like us would be dead. It’s basic evolutionary biology. Morality is intrinsic to social animals. We naturally develop rules to follow so we can cooperate and there is a strong pressure to follow those rules. Creating a rule that is contrary to a fundamental truth and natural strong desire inevitably cause people to fail. Those who pretend to follow the rule get rewarded for it. Those who aren’t are punished so social economics pushes people to lie and become hypocrites. Hypocrisy creates a whole host of problems and only emboldens the violation of more rules. When you know one rule is bullshti you’re naturally inclined to believe that more are. It actually encourages selfishness which I’d define as an extreme version of ‘rational self interest’. Since there is not a safe space to discuss self interest in a rational context ideas about this become morphed and deluded in isolation. Ideas like ‘I am already immoral for not being self sacrificial and lying about it so I mine as well use abuse others and violate all the other rules,’ become the natural conclusion. The problem is that many of the rules make sense. The self sacrifice rule does not. Moral atrocities become possible because the basic moral rule is a lie. The idea of self sacrifice is a rejection of what it is to be human. We are what we are. We can’t actively work to corrupt our own interests. It’s just not possible or effective. We need to accept who we are in reality and work within these terms to achieve anything. Actively rejecting our natures can only be destructive. What’s bad for the individual naturally compounds to damage societies. I would not tell my nephews to reject their own interests because I get that it’s actively harmful to them and I care about them and I care about their well being. That is a meme that can build and grow. Actively resisting what’s in your own interest, for any reason, is self-destructive. If I spread this meme multiple people are now trying to destroy themselves. When you encourage others to neglect themselves the net result is collective neglect. No one is going to care more about your own desires as much as you do. If we are taught to neglect these desires we are all completely doomed to become dissatisfied. Acts presented as altruistic are generally self-gratifying. If I love you and take a large risk to my life to save your life it’s because you’re valuable to me. My life would be virtually null without you. You can easily establish this by tracking how long spouses survive each other (it’s not very long). It’s also why the death of a child often ends a marriage. If you’re weak and small dying in a burning building how could I live with myself if I wouldn’t at least take a slight risk of my life to try and save you? Empathy is a natural emotion that unites all social animals. It’s not part of a self sacrifice but an understanding that together we are strong and alone we are weak. Helping each other makes us strong so this is completely self serving for social animals. This is a major theme of the ‘War for the Planet of the Apes’: together the are strong. I’m saying this because it’s one hell of a great movie and makes it clear that in helping each other we help ourselves and that’s even clear to newly conscious Apes. It is in no way self sacrificial to work together in a group. Altruism as manipulation If I constantly told you that you’re being selfish it means that you’re not doing enough to help me out in the relationship. If I start telling you you need to be be self sacrificial that’s code for ‘you should be serving me.’ It’s not the start of a voluntary relationship where we could trade and cooperate with each other. Self-sacrifice and selfishness vs cooperation This is really the major crux of the issue for me. If I say that morality should be about self sacrifice I will get taken advantage of and if I accept internally that it’s only about me and my well being I will take advantage of others and so contribute to the destruction of society in which I am a part of. Morality has to be about cooperation and not altruism or selfishness to be successful in building and improving societies. - Telling someone to neglect their own interests is immoral as it’s destructive to them, is a step toward getting them to only serve your interests and ultimately leads to collective harm. We just have to be honest that a good balance has to be struck between extreme self interest and an extreme interest in others. Cooperation is the basis of morality.