The system of "Sin" is not fair.

Your last comment about redundancy is an excellent description of this debate. 1. A baby's innocence. "punishment for sin(i.e. murder, hell), is something that should not be applied to a child." This is statement is correct if saying it from the viewpoint it is looked through, a human society viewpoint, civilization and acts of human being towards other human beings. It is simply not correct if viewed through the awesome sinless, perfect authority of God's Just and Holy Sovereignty. "examples of where god commits genocide for the sins of the adult population." <------The bibles position is that all have fallen short, and all are sinful that "deserve" hell but (I know, I know) were given something they didn't deserve, that is, Jesus Christ. ================== [2.] 100% of people who are educated on the Hebrew and Greek translations will all shoot you down on this. Job is THE perfect example of God's ultimate authority in the old testament scriptures because they understand what the original writer was in fact portraying, not what the reader thought it was portraying. To interject your own opinion about what was happening to Job and ignore the person that was experiencing it, not to mention, actually talking to God, heck... to believe that the events were not false and that Jobs knowledge (because that's what the bible says it is) is false is a fallacy in it's own merit. I'm sorry I'm breaking my rule: "Simple summary: God kills Job's family, livestock, and steals..." <---- Steals? The Bible states that all the wealth people own already belongs to God, so God cannot steal what has always been his. ...all his wealth. Then proceeds to hurt Job personally with illness. All this time Job is begging for an answer,..." <------ Not once did Job ever beg or even ask for an answer... his mistake (not sin) was challenging God to dare accuse himself of sinning(and dare use that as an explanation for his actions against Job), because Job KNEW he was not guilty of sinning. "...asking what he did wrong, what he did to deserve this(talking to his friends)." <---- I'd hate to say it but this is simply not in the biblical story. It was Job's friends who accused him of sinning, and it was Job who openly challenged God to prove that sin was a cause of these events, because again Job KNEW this was not the case. "Meanwhile God started all this because of a bet with SATAN..." <----- You have this 100% backwards, it was Satan who started this all because he wanted to wager a bet that Job would curse God. "...(you know, the most evil entity ever). At the end, God shows up and instead of explaining to Job why all this has happened to him, he goes on a rhetorical speech asking him "where you there when the earth was born?" <---- Again, the mother of all explanation being ignored(Sorry to say it like that, really I'm a nice guy!), God can do anything is pleases... even Job knew this... and was terrified because of it! Job 23:13 - "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases... 15 Therefore, I would be dismayed at His presence; When I consider, I am terrified of Him. ================ [3.] "How is it fair to obligate God [the author of life itself] to give a second chance when punishment is deserved for constant sin against God?" 1. I am not obligating god. I am merely stating that by human standards, what god did and the system he created was/is not fair. 2. "Again, not everyone was "constantly sinning". The bible states that everyone constantly sins... 3. "Nor do we have any proof that God's law was known to them." There is also no proof that Abraham became righteous as a result from God speaking to him, on the contrary, it simply said that Abram obeyed God's command to start his Journey, nothing more. "(btw: Romans-1 says this for the believers in the sense that "god was all around them" in the argument for his existence. Not his Law.)." <----- I agreed when I put it there and even now! Hence "So people are without excuse." I realize you are logical person... all of the "no proof" arguments are canceled out because of the basic logical standpoint that "the absence of proof does not prove anything". "The point is that you are assuming that these people had full knowledge of their actions"<------- Not at all, I did note that Numbers and Leviticus accounts for unintentional sins and even unknown sins! Honestly, do you know anyone, like in Lot's case that wanted to rape other men by breaking down Lot's door, and didn't know it was wrong? Even aborigines know to respect a man's home! 4. Unintentional Sin is again, for the believers of the religion. Those who could not know of the religion could not know of the concept of Sin, be it unintentional or otherwise. <---- you are right with the word "sin" but are wrong with the action of sin. This is ultimately shot down with Romans 2 that says: ""13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,"" [4.] God's "right" to choose. "[NOTE]Con: Did not deny God chose a group of people and condemned all others." <----because I was busy making that case that this is not true...I am being redundant now, guilty! "Also Mathew 20:1-16 Is a good parable for work, but for the souls of a human? That's taking it a bit too far." <----Now I know your not reading your bible... Jesus took it that far by starting this parable with "For the kingdom of heaven is like..." C: God's "right" MkII "No. Creation of something does not imply ownership, especially when free-will and sentience are concerned." <------ You mean the free-will and sentience that... God created...? Also implying that God is above morality is implying the appeal to authority fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org...... Please, do not argue that because God is perfect, the system must be perfect. That is beneath you." <--- First off, I genuinely accept that compliment! That made me feel special coming from someone yourself. And I would never dare to resort to such childish tactics that unstable Christians resort to[yes I said that]. I must add though... to be fair... that the bible...which is true for this debate... does say "As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him." - Psalms 18:30. I didn't argue that... technically the bible did that one! Thanks again!