Receiving government money (even in salary) comes from behind the point of a gun

R1) Why is it a gun and, say, not a tazer? Or a billy club with handcuffs? Or a mean rottweiler? Or a punch in the face? Or a grenade, RPG, tank, or nuke? (shaking my head in utter amazement) PRO then goes into an example with a schoolteacher. Let me give you an example of an IBM employee; Let's say you are a computer technician at IBM. You get a paycheck. Now, the question is "where did that money come from." It comes from the Fed, every dollar is printed at the Federal Reserve. What happens if you burn this money? That is when they get out the guns and if you resist, they will use them. Yes, they will shoot you with real guns if you resist enough in order to burn that dollar bill. The money does not come from the Fed. The government merely prints that green paper with dead presidents that the Fed authorizes. The green money is simply a median of exchange. Originally, governments did not even do that. People first bartered until banks were formed where they could drop off smaller, more valuable means of exchange like gold or silver making exchange easier than hauling 2500 apples for a cow . The fact that the government and Fed has now put themselves in charge of printing fake money has nothing to do with this debate and each time you mention it, you are getting further off track. Money comes from the backs of working people who earn it. Our federal reserve notes are only worth what people perceive them to be worth. Your thoughts that all money comes from the government is true only in a literal sense as to who prints the paper. The perceived value of the paper comes from labor and the trade of goods and the government's ability to tax. Therefore, as long as you and others are not breaking the law, "Receiving government money (even in salary) DOES NOT comes from behind the point of a gun." The resolution is negated. Well, sure, if a person does not break the law, the government does not usually get out the guns but I said usually. People who have not broken any laws have had guns pointed at them by your feds. Teachers do not break the law by taking a job in a government school by teaching. Their paycheck comes from behind the point of a gun. Is it breaking the law? That is a non issue in this debate. I said this was not about the morality of certain kinds of tax collection. Your denial about whether or not a government check comes from behind the point of a gun or not is not going to change the fact. Why do you think people pay property taxes....sometimes in outrageous unfair amounts? They know the guns will come out if they don't. How can you sit there and deny that that is true? Try it sometime. Stop paying, ignore the letters and hold your ground. See what happens. If the guns don't come out, I will concede that I am wrong and you win. Here is a simpler way: Call your local property tax office and ask them how it works if you don't pay your property taxes and you refuse to leave. Ask them the ultimate result and get back to me, okay? R3) PRO: "They don't "ask" for property taxes, income taxes and a host of other taxes. They tell you in so many polite words through mail-in notices the following unmistakable message: "Pay the amount that we demand or we get out the guns."" This is again absurd. If you break the law, yes, you will become subject to enforcement. However, you didn't need to buy property to pay property taxes. ?? What if I want to exercise my right to buy property? That makes no sense. Are you suggesting we all commit suicide so we don't have to pay certain taxes? There are also many ways to earn tax-exempt income (municipal bonds http://www.investopedia.com......), and to buy things without paying sales tax (i.e. you can buy something out of state and have it shipped to you). No one forced you to get into a situation where you would have to pay taxes, if you are so paranoid about "bad men with guns" coming after you. Again, you are completely off track when it comes to this debate and again, it is not about the morality of taxation. It is not about how to avoid paying certain taxes. Read the title line once again. "If it involves pointing a gun at someone, it is immoral." Refer to R1 - it may not necessarily be a gun, and this alone would negate the resolution. I would hope that any thinking person who votes on this debate can see the extreme absurdity of this statement. What if I pointed a gun at someone threatening my family? How is this immoral? Basically, there is such a thing as justifiable violence. What does this debate have to do with anyone threatening your family???????????? The dollar is part of our governing apparatus; most people would agree that we are better off having a unified currency than a barter society. Again, the median of exchange has nothing to do with this debate. Also, having the government print this currency would allow for the government to take out counterfeiters, something I do not expect my neighbor to know how to do. Rotfl! I cannot believe you contrasted a counterfeiter with the government's printing of money! They are one and the same. Did you not know that our money is not backed by anything other than perception? You need to see: http://www.rense.com... What the Fed has been doing with money printing is counterfeit. Only they can do it and we cannot. That is the the deception and not at all the subject of this debate. Try to stay on track. PRO is presenting the archetypal libertarian position that "government = coercion" and "coercion is bad". Let me guess: You took one look at my profile, saw the word "libertarian" and jumped to 43 conclusions about me and my views? How am I doing so far? At least I have a profile instead of hiding behind complete anonymity, including my age. You seem to imply that government is not coercion. Let me quote George Washington for you: "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." But I suppose you think government is this peaceful entity that exists to serve us while we ride our unicorns over the rainbow in search of the fountain of youth. Whatever. "The libertarian bent against government becomes absurd at a certain point, Libertarians are not against government and as I think I have mentioned, this is off topic. Government is pervasive. The dollar IS a part of government. Therefore, pay in any form involving dollars, either from your employer, from Uncle Sam, or from your cousin's sister's nephew's lemonade stand, involves government action and thus coercion under a libertarian view of morality. This view of morality is absolutely absurd." None of this paragraph makes any sense because none of it is on topic. I am guessing that you receive some check from the government and you are willing to jump through any hoops to justify the morality of how it was derived as long as it was "legal". Did you not know that everything government does is "legal?" Does that make it moral? Relevant to this debate, PRO's libertarian moral position is at its core untenable. It's not that "coercion is bad", it's that "breaking the law is bad", Are you suggesting that we should obey all laws because all laws are moral? If they pass laws against exercise, would you say to me "Well, just don't exercise and you won't be breaking the law. Problem solved." and PRO seems to have zero respect for the law Wow, what a conclusion you have jumped to once again! What law did I mention that I have zero respect for? You should lose this debate and be metaphorically arrested just for mentioning that! You seem to have zero respect for facts. Where did I say ONE WORD about having no respect for the law? , and thus finds there are many problems in his life. Again, conclusion jumping and you know nothing about my life. Are you one of those rare people who thinks that every law that the government passes is a good, moral law and they we can avoid problems if we just obey the laws? I guess you are and if you were alive during the Revolution, you would have been a Loyalist and had nothing to do with fighting the British. You are what is wrong with this country. You are why we have so few freedoms and you are the reason this country is going down the toilet of Socialism. I hope in the next round, you can actually stay on topic.