Rationalists should attempt to destroy religion.

Well, it looks like things are beginning to get interesting. At no point have I ever claimed that all religions are equally bad or that they all lead to violence. What I've tried to argue is that there is a very logical path from religious faith- faith in Martyrdom, hellfire, and the divine origin of certain books- that leads to violence. I've even attempted to briefly distinguish Buddhism and Islam and yet you're throwing this accusation in my face like I've never mentioned it. It would be phantasmagorically stupid to say that Quakerism is just as bad as Salafi Islam. Clearly there is a continuum of bad ideas in religion and dreadful consequences based on those ideas. ====== Case pro ====== Rationalists should destroy religion because: 1.There is a deep-rooted link between religion and violence. 1) Religion leads to faith and thus beliefs in certain propositions. 2) Faith provides a perfect vacuum to insulate these beliefs from rational thought guaranteeing they will thrive despite their untruth. 3) Some of these propositions are dangerous and destructive e.g. (martyrdom, hell). 4) Insofar as a person actually believes something is true he is likely to act on those beliefs. 5) Acting on some of these beliefs e.g. martyrdom necessitates that people will be killed. So, there you go. I've outlined the steps and demonstrated the link between someone accepting religion and then committing acts of violence. You're absolutely right in pointing out that my argument leaves religions like Jainism unscathed at surface value, but since this isn't my only contention I'm more than willing to concede this point. Even when religion isn't directly implicated in violence its responsible for breaking humans up into rival groups. 2.Our irreconcilable religious differences are inspiring an appalling amount of conflict. Even if religion doesn't contribute directly to violence it creates divisive in groups and out groups that fuel the flames of sectarianism. Consider the recent conflict in Palestine. Surely it isn't perpetuated solely over religion but religious lunatics on both sides are making matters far worse. Quoted from The End of Faith- page 26 hardcover [1] "Indeed, religion is as much a living spring of violence today as it was at any time in the past. The recent conflicts in Palestine (Jews v. Muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians v. Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians v. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims), Northern Ireland (Protestants v. Catholics), Kashmir (Muslim v. Hindus), Sudan (Muslims v. Christians and animists), Nigeria (Muslim v. Christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims v. Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists v. Tamil Hindus) Indonesia (Muslims v. Timorese Christians) and the Caucasus (Orthodox Russians v. Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis v. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians) are merely a few cases in point. In these places religion has been the explicit cause of literally millions of deaths in the last ten years. These events should strike us like psychological experiments rum amok, for that is what they are. Give people divergent, irreconcilable, and untestable notions about what happens after death, and then oblige them to live together with limited resources. The result is just what we see: an unending cycle of murder and cease-fire. If history reveals any categorical truth, it is that insufficient taste for evidence regularly brings out the worst in us. Add weapons of mass destruction to this diabolical clockwork, and you have found a recipe for the fall of civilization." 3.Religion balkanizes humans into separate and incompatible moral communities. This has gone uncontested so I'm assuming you agree. 4.Religion, very often, degrades ones ability to think coherently and thus make rational choices about the world. - I'm tempted to say that this is manifestly true but if you want me to elaborate I will. 5.Religious moderates give cover to religious fundamentalists by their insistence of having faith- belief without evidence- respected. Religious moderates seek to preserve faith and thus tacitly support the irreconcilable religious divisions in our world. 6.Religion stands in the way of medical research and social progress. Stem cell research has been blocked on solely religious grounds and gay couples still cant get married in California out of deference to grotesque books like Leviticus. [2] 7.Its come to my attention that my previous #7 claim is a bit absolutist. So, allow me to readjust it to read as follows: The unsupported supernatural claims of religion are patently absurd- e.g. virgin births, resurrections, flying hoarses, miracle stories, creation myths etc. ======= Case Con ======= "Do people have the needs and tendencies I have supposed? Maybe, but it doesn't logically follow that religion is the optimal outlet for these tendencies and it doesn't prove that these tendencies cant be reigned in. "Has religion evolved to more benign forms?" Sure. Given the bloody history of religion this isn't saying very much and it even borders on obscurantism. Religion does not evolve fast enough by my lights and in the meantime millions of people are dying over these ridiculous beliefs that shouldn't survive an elementary school education. "Isn't it true that as I have described that pseudo-religion is more imposing on my life than religion?" Maybe, but I don't see what this has to do with jihadism, which is what I focus on. "Are time-tested social rules a better starting point than new ideologies?" NO! They often amount to little more than irrational appeals to tradition. I think you would agree. "If religion is destroyed, does peace and reason naturally prevail?" Not necessarily, reason and peace must be encouraged and demanded by society the same way they are in every area of modern life except religion. Religion is one of very few modes of conversation humans engage in where people seem to think intellectual honesty and evidence are not required. ===================== "Where I live, no one forces me to pray or prohibits me from eating pork or forces me to wear a religious costume." My opponent doesn't know what its like to be a girl living in Saudi Arabia. He doesn't know what its like to be hunted down by the Islamic Janjaweed in Darfur. He doesn't know what its like to be gay in a country like Iran. Indeed, his seclusion in a country that separates church and state has blinkered him to the needless suffering caused by religion. ===================== "Moreover, I explained why it was inevitable: people cannot possibly examine each decision in life from scratch. They must have a strong set of default principles, and they will have them." Your entire position rests on little more than shameless defeatism. You seem to think that religion or pseudo religion will always exist no matter how much emphasis we as a society place on reason or science. You would do well to notice how easily children can be argued out of their belief in Santa clause. This was a cherished hobby of mine when I was 6. They all enter school as believers and they all leave as perfect skeptics. Just because no civilization has ever been built solely upon the rigors of reason and intellectual honesty this does not mean that such a project would be impossible. It also doesn't show that attempting such a project would be folly. Sources [1] The End of Faith: Religion Terror and The Future of Reason- pg 26- (Sam Harris) [2] http://www.usatoday.com... http://www.alarabiya.net... http://www.guardian.co.uk... http://www.nytimes.com... http://atheism.about.com... http://www.speroforum.com... Best, Freeman