Topic #29: Plea Bargaining should be Banned. (Attempt 2)

I notice several times that you've conveniently dropped major elements of my argument, and rather argue on certain phrases. A lesser opponent would say that you must therefore completely agree with me, making the debate mine. However, I'll still allow you to make a case on them. I suggest you do it on the full argument, and not just the cut and pasted parts that you've taken out of context to make them work for you. I'll suggest to the viewer to re-read the segments my opponent has copied just in case. I will reply to PublicForumG-d's rebuttals in chronological order so I do not waste space. Also, I apologize if this statement seems at all rude. It is merely a clarification I feel is necessary to make so that the judges are not misguided. This is not a concession, only an acknowledgment of fact. Of course citizens can waive their rights. Saying they cannot would be a lie. However, you'll notice that the trial by Jury is not a right but a requirement for judicial proceedings in the Constitution. So it's not even an option to waive this. You've negated the second part of this sentence, being that law enforcement cannot, in any way, suggest they do so. A citizens rights are their own, and so only they have the ability to waive them. Anything, down to a mere suggestion, from anyone other than the individual is unlawful by the constitution. Therefore again meaning that Plea Bargaining is unconstitutional, as it is a direct suggestion for a citizen to waive their rights. If you wished to argue on right and wrong you should have made it a separate argument, and not tied it into the law. Your own argument and refutation is a contradiction. Ergo, my stance thus far is extended. A Freudian slip. Verdicts are made by juries, sentencing is made by judges. My error. However, the basic element of this argument stands. The Jury makes the verdict, not the lawyers. However, Plea Bargaining not only infringes on a Juries duty to make such a verdict, but also the Judges sentencing, as they pre-arranged the lesser charges. Also, your analogy pertaining to us is flawed in comparison to the legal system. My moral stance on this subject (to which I honestly have none), as well as yours is null. As debaters we are defending a stance, just like what lawyers are supposed to do. Our Judges are not here to decipher who is right, but who debated better, just like in the real courts, where verdicts of guilty and non-guilty are determined by how well a lawyer defended the case in accordance to the law. Whether he or the judge agrees personally is moot, as both of their jobs are to uphold the LAW, not their EMOTIONS. If you were to say I should advance, the argument would still have to be judged, and could go either way (albeit, your concession would greatly hurt your chances). If a lawyer did that it would be considered malpractice, as he did not attempt to defend his mandatory stance. With plea-bargaining, the lawyer of the defendant should also be prosecuted for malpractice. Since they are not doing all within their ability to prove their client are INNOCENT, which ultimately is the goal every lawyer should be trying to attain, not just second best. Again, this argument is on the law, not on moral standards. No, they revised it because they admitted he WAS goaded, but kept the guilty plea as they thought that it was legitimate. This brings me back to one of the first arguments I made. Whether he knew he was innocent is not the case, but what he knew would actually happen, being they would prove him guilty and still send him to jail, even if he maintained a plea of non-guilty. Because Brady knew this to be true (no doubt because both lawyers and police caused him to think so), he would of course go for a lighter sentence. He like any men would fear the death penalty, and the knowledge that he would get it one way or another would make any man give in to plea bargaining. Also, you've ignored the part in the Hayes trial where the lawyers and police threatened him into taking a plea bargain rather than going into trial. His ultimate verdict is of no consequence here, as that is a regular trial. We must concentrate on the plea bargaining part, where it is all too clear that it was done unjustly and grossly disregarded the Constitution. All plea-bargaining is illegal as it is unconstitutional. Therefore, even if they tell you your rights, the simple fact that they pursue plea-bargaining is a violation of them and the law. Also, nowhere in my first round do I mention whether they tell you your rights or not, so my second rounds reasoning is not a contradiction, but a stance I maintain still. Since they are informal, that means they are implied, true. However, because Plea Bargaining is not a specific state law, and because it is clear that they violate Constitutional laws, this means these informal laws, are in fact illegal. So while they may not specifically say ‘no plea-bargaining', it is clear that 'informally' it does. This argument has nothing to do with plea-bargaining, but your feelings on rehabilitation. If the Judge AND Jury deem rehabilitation a suitable punishment, fine. However, it is unlawful to pursue this sentence by plea-bargaining. If there are not enough Judges, Juries, and Court Rooms to facilitate all these cases then the solution is simple: get more. America's last census states that there are over 2 million people in the US. With that many people, it far from impossible to expand. So it still comes down to a convenience issue, which is no excuse for deliberately breaking Constitutional law. There are solutions that fall within the law, and ones that don't. Plea-bargaining falls into the second category. Now, onto your Supreme Court Justification. The Supreme Court is specially set up to give accurate rulings based purely on the Founding documents. Now, right here, you think I've conceded my whole point. "Plea Bargaining can't violate the Constitution if the Supreme Court has ruled for cases that use it" right? Wrong. The simple basis of this claim is that the Judges are human, and while they are supposed to uphold every facet of the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence they don't. This can easily be seen in the cases of both Civil Rights and Slavery. Although it is clearly stated that 'All men are Created Equal", the Supreme Court allowed slavery. Even once it was repealed, and the laws in the Constitution were amended, they still allowed the unjust treatment of Black people. Several times this case was brought up, and an important facet that 'All men are created equal' was always brought up, which if the Supreme Court were really doing their job, would have settled it then and there. But it didn't, the main reason because each and every highly educated Judge had their personal biases. Thus, the cases on civil rights continued for nearly 100 years after slaveries abolishment. This clearly shows that the Supreme Court, while they should be the most just and fair court in the country, is not. Therefore, their specific rulings cannot be taken into account because of their many, many flaws in judgment, which in more cases than not, based on their personal feelings rather than the laws they should be upholding. Meaning this argument must be fought on the specific rules and laws of the Constitution, not the opinions of nine people. So, in conclusion, I maintain that Plea Bargaining is unconstitutional, and should thus be banned. By the rules of Amendments 5 and 6, and Article III section II of the Constitution, we can see that the informal, and purely legal-PRACTICE born 'option' of Plea Bargaining directly violates these fundamental laws. Convenience, Moral Standings, and the Supreme Courts personal feelings are not acceptable excuses. If it violates the law, especially the Highest one, then it is already illegal. So, we must officially ban Plea Bargaining. Darth_Grievous_42 out.