No action can be truly selfless

Definition of an atheist: The belief that there is no God of any kind. If there is no God of any kind...then there are no moral values of any kind. (Explained Below) 1.If an atheist lays his life down for another human being, he obviously wouldn't expect to go to Heaven, or anywhere for that matter, he would just cease to exist. (Ulterior motive denied) Self explanatory. 2.If an atheist lays his life down for another human being, it wouldn't be b/c he is so afraid of the guilt he would feel otherwise that he would rather die. (Ulterior motive denied) Explained below. 3.If an atheist lays his life down for another human being, it wouldn't be for Self-satisfaction, i.e. Some people's self-esteem is just so low that they'd rather die feeling like heroes than live feeling worthless. (Ulterior motive denied) Explained below. 2.In reply to "You said that a truly selfless action could only occur in a world without guilt. Since guilt is deeply rooted in human beings, that's pretty much impossible." You misinterpreted my argument. What I mean by the statement "It seems to me that only in a world without guilt can any truly selfless act occur" is that an atheist has created this possibility for himself by believing there is no God, thus having no absolute right or wrong which imposes itself on his conscience & offers him the possibility of living in a world without guilt. To better explain I'll describe an atheist's view of life in regards to other human beings "There is no God, so what's so special about human beings? They're just accidental by-products of nature which have evolved relatively recently on an infinitesimal speck of dust lost somewhere in a hostile & mindless universe which are doomed to perish individually and collectively in a relatively short period of time." Since an atheist doesn't believe there is a God, & nothing comes after death he therefore would not lay his life down for another human being in hopes of any afterlife or reward in Heaven. Since an atheist doesn't believe there is a God, & has no absolute right and wrong which imposes itself on his conscience the idea of living in a world without guilt becomes possible. Maya's last statement was "There are other reasons. Self-satisfaction, for one. Some people's self-esteem is just so low that they'd rather die feeling like heroes than live feeling worthless." 2.Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all atheist going to live feeling worthless if they believe there is no purpose in life and everything is pointless. Hero: A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose. (The American Heritage Dictionary) The definition of a hero contradicts an atheist's core idea that there is no God, therefore life has no purpose. The above argument shows that an atheist that lays his life down for another human being is a truly selfless action. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Above the line is my secular argument against the idea that no living being can commit a truly selfless act. Now I will present the Christian viewpoint and use John Piper's philosophy of "Christian Hedonism" taken from his book "Desiring God: Meditations of A Christian Hedonist". Christian Hedonism: The chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying Him forever. http://www.desiringgod.org... We all make a god out of what we take the most pleasure in. Christian Hedonists want to make God their God by seeking after the greatest pleasure—pleasure in him. By Christian Hedonism, we do not mean that our happiness is the highest good. We mean that pursuing the highest good will always result in our greatest happiness in the end. We should pursue this happiness, & pursue it with all our might. The desire to be happy is a proper motive for every good deed, and if you abandon the pursuit of your own joy you cannot love man or please God. The Difference Between Worldly and Christian Hedonism Some people are inclined to believe that Christians are supposed to seek God's will as opposed to pursuing their own pleasure. But what makes Biblical morality different than worldly hedonism is not that Biblical morality is disinterested & duty-driven, but that it is interested in vastly greater and purer things. Christian Hedonism is Biblical morality because it recognizes that obeying God is the only route to final and lasting happiness. Here are some examples of this from the Bible: Luke 6:35 says, "Love your enemies, & do good, & lend, expecting nothing in return; & your reward will be great." It is clear when Jesus says "expect nothing in return" that we should not be motivated by worldly aggrandizement, but we are given strength to suffer loss by the promise of a future reward. Again, in Luke 14:12-14: "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, & you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor . . . & you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just." That is, don't do good deeds for worldly advantage; rather, do them for spiritual, heavenly benefits. Should Duty Be Our Main Motivation? But some will say, "No, no. These texts only describe what reward will result if you act disinterestedly. They do not teach us to actually seek the reward." Two answers to this objection: 1) It would be foolish to say, "If you take this pill, I'll give you a nickel," if you expect the desire for the nickel to ruin the pill. But Jesus was not foolish. He would not offer blessing to those who obey him & then hold it against us if these blessings motivated our obedience. 2) Even more importantly, there are texts that not only commend that we do good in the hope of future blessing, but command it. Luke 12:33 says, "Sell your possessions, & give alms; provide yourselves with purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail." The connection here between alms & having eternal treasure in heaven is not a chance result—it is the explicit purpose: "Make it your aim to have treasure in heaven, & the way to do this is to sell your possessions and give alms." And again, Luke 16:9 says, "Make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous mammon, so that when it fails they may receive you into eternal habitations." Luke does not say that the result of using possessions properly is to receive eternal habitations. He says, "Make it your aim to secure an eternal habitation by the way you use your possessions." Therefore, a resounding NO to the belief that morality should be inspired more by duty than delight. Don't Be Too Easily Satisfied Hebrews 11:6 teaches, "Without faith it is impossible to please [God]. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." You cannot please God if you do not come to him looking for reward. Therefore, faith that pleases God is the hedonistic pursuit of God. As Christian Hedonists we know that everyone longs for happiness. And we will never tell them to deny or repress that desire. It is never a problem to want to be satisfied. The problem is being satisfied too easily. They can be happier in giving than receiving (Acts 20:35) They should count everything as loss for the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus their Lord (Phil 3:8) The aim of all of Jesus' commandments is that their joy be full (John 15:11) If they delight themselves in the Lord he will give them the desire of their heart (Ps 37:4) There is great gain in godliness with contentment (1 Tim 6:6) The joy of the Lord is their strength (Neh 8:10) We will not try to motivate anyone with appeals to mere duty. We will tell them that in God's presence is full & lasting joy (Ps 16:11) Our only duty is to come to Him seeking this pleasure.