"The god of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction:..."

Well well well well well hmmmmmm considering the absolute fact that you cannot prove that YOUR god even exists, YOUR entire debate is entirely irrelevant on those grounds alone, you"ve automatically lost the debate. Oh and Btw, I didn"t make the opening statement for RD1. Richard Dawkins did. He happens to know a lot more about YOUR god, religion and bible than you ---ever--- will. As the matter of fact, so do I. Now let"s see where your debate leads. So let"s get started. - This is not a debate about whether God exists or not, there is no need to make this discussion personal, how can I loose a debate that is about if God has mercy or not in the old testament because you claim that he does not exist? Remember, I am only here to debate and hopefully win, it does not matter to me what your views on God are, Also you should consider the absolute fact that you cannot prove that God does not exist and the claim that everything happened by chance is less believable than saying that a snake is able to drive. Please let us stick to the original debate, my belief in God is irrelevant to this discussion, thank you and I appreciate your candor . How can you say that Richard Dawkins a master in his field and authored the selfish gene theory (In the current issue of Advances in Complex Systems (February-April), Dr. Yaneer Bar-Yam, president of the New England Complex Systems Institute and an expert on the application of mathematical analysis to complex systems, contends that the selfish-gene theory of evolution is fatally flawed.)knows more about the bible( yet his theory fails) than I ever will , when you do not know me or him personally(as he only knows what he needs to disparage the faith) , or is it that you know what will happen to us in the future since you said ever will ? shall we substitute fact for guesswork, or do you take offense that your hero may not be all knowing? Either way, this is irrelevant and highly antagonistic. Right off the bat you dig yourself a super hole "mercy, kindness, justice , wisdom" How is that possible with deliberate massive genocides such as" Indeed god is far far far worse than Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hong Xiuquan combined? Here's some examples... 3,000 EX 32:27-28, 14,700 NU 16:49, 24,002 NU 25: 1-11, 12,000 JOS 8: 1-25, 10,000 JG 1:4, 120,000 JG 8:7-10, 42,000 JG 12:3-6, 1,000 JD 15:14-15, 3,000 JD 16:27-30, 25,101 JD 16:27-30, 1 SAM 4 34,002, 1 SAM 6:19 50,070, 2 SAM 8 65,850, 1 KI 20: 28-29 100,000, 1 KI 20: 30 27,000, KI 19 35 -37 185,000, 2 CHR 13 17-18 500,000!!!!! 2 CHR 28:6 120,000, Esther 9:5-18 75,813 etc etc etc Yeah god is really so moral huh? There"s no such a thing as "mercy, kindness, justice" and godwho has no morality. It is very odd that you ignored the point I made about authenticity of some of these verses, none the less Let us define mercy: compassion or forbearance (see forbearance 1) shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one's power; also : lenient or compassionate treatment begged for mercy , Kindness: the quality or state of being kind(arising from or characterized by sympathy or forbearance ) , justice the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments and wisdom ability to discern inner qualities and relationships. For these qualities to come together in one being would obviously be difficult for another being to fathom who does not possess them. You are unable to see the wisdom in what is around you simply because you lack wisdom and such it is reflected in the things that you do, this would also entail unnecessary hostility. Of all the verses you pointed out, which verse is there in which God came to earth and perpetuated violence? You said 2 CHR 13 17-18 500,000!!!!! , this was a war between the Israelites and Judah, if you read further it states, "The Israelites were subdued on that occasion, and the people of Judah were victorious because they relied on the LORD, the God of their ancestors." you were not there. neither was I, but clearly the party who trusted in God was given victory over those who did not( by this analogy I can say Man lacks mercy because of the millions killed in war since the dawn of time, however some wars are righteous like fighting Hitler, so why is it unacceptable for you if God granted victory to one group of people who trusted him over those who did not- we cannot condemn the entire mankind because of war as there is always a just side, so why do you condemn God?) No God is not like Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin and Hong Xiuquan , the atheists(some perhaps) of this list where tyrants who if they had the opportunity would have shed the blood of all men on earth for their own desires( cleansing the world and subjugating the racially impure!), and mind you , history is filled with such barbarians, including Vlad the Impaler, whose brutality no religious scripture can justify, was it God who made him do this ? Clearly not, if you are truthful. It is possible that billions of men have lived upon the earth, the numbers you exaggerate with are a minority. 3,000 EX 32:27-28: These men were killed for treason when (Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies.26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.) those who worshipped the calf knowing it was false and refused to rally to Moses, it was an act of justice, the united states punishment for treason is" Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death". If the punishment of treason for man is death, why do we hold God to a different standard when it comes to treason? 14,700 NU 16:49, 26 And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins- it is evident and clear that this was a punishment for sin(you of course do not know the nature of their sins, but keep it in mind that they lived a lifetime before punishment became inevitable)-Please refer to the definition of justice, so what would the case be if each of these men had a heart ? NU 25: 1-11 While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate the sacrificial meal and bowed down before these gods. 3 So Israel yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor. And the LORD"s anger burned against them- The cause of their punishment is clearly detailed, it was sexual immorality coupled with the breaking of the first commandment- it was not arbitrary like Hitler killing Jews. JOS 8: 1-25 "The first, in Joshua 7, fails. The Biblical account portrays the failure as being due to a prior sin of Achan, for which he is stoned to death by the Israelites. On the second attempt, in Joshua 8, Joshua, who is identified by the narrative as the leader of the Israelites, receives instruction from God. God tells them to set up an ambush and Joshua does what God says. An ambush is arranged at the rear of the city on the western side. Joshua is with a group of soldiers that approach the city from the front so the men of Ai, thinking they will have another easy victory, chase Joshua and the fighting men from the entrance of the city to lead the men of Ai away from the city. Then the fighting men to the rear enter the city and set it on fire. When the city is captured, 12,000 men and women are killed, and it is razed to the ground. The king is captured and put on a stake until he is dead. His body is then placed at the city gates and stones are placed on top of his body. The Israelites then burn Ai completely and "made it a permanent heap of ruins."[2] God told them they could take the livestock as plunder and they did so- " This is simply war, look at what is happening in Afghanistan today, both sides believe they are fighting for a noble cause, if God was to give his help to one group who obeyed his commands, would that mean that God does not have mercy? obviously those who obeyed him where more worthy of his help, if he had not helped them, their enemies would have conquered them, so what is your point? it does not seem like you actually took the time to read these verses but simply copied and pasted to support your narrative. During World War 1 and 2 close to approximately 78 million people were killed, the old testaments chronicles the journey of the children of Israel, so it does not account for the other murders and injustices that took place in the world at the hand of man. it is fair to assume that without divine intervention, the children of Israel would have survived at unacceptable costs to human life; How can we say God has no morality (again subjective) when his intervention is with a just and detailed cause; he did not kill 78 million people in the world wars, nor the terror we have today, this was man's own doing, sometimes man understands the language of mutual violence, if this was not the case, Hitler would have been talked out of power, so should God simply use scripture knowing full well that man will discard it? We have to draw a distinction between ideal pacifism and reality ; just because our demands of how God should be are not met, does not mean that he contradicts mercy and justice. it is possible that all this was good and prevented a greater evil , but how can you know when you lack objectivity ? it is tantamount to explaining to a baby(impossible) why he should feel the pain of having a vaccine, the baby lacks understanding and would cry in pain and agony but the mother in all her mercy still allows the vaccine to be administered for the greater good. Should we then say that the mother lacks kindness and mercy towards her child? of course not. but that is because we have wisdom and understand, and a baby does not. "Wisdom"? What? No god would ever create the human race to begin with, with all of his faults, his broken bones, his heart attacks, his diseases. Am i supposed to justify the creation of man to you because you hold such a dark and material view? this is all your opinion, a pessimistic view on life because to you ,we are here by chance and life has no meaning. the fact that man knows he has faults, broken bones , heart attacks and diseases is not what gives man value, it is his endurance, sacrifice, struggle and ability to overcome challenges . Man also learns, he cares, he stands up for justice, he lives and he dies. Man fights for the weak and oppressed against fellow man, he helps the needy and the poor, he improves his life and of those around him, if he chooses to, all this by choice and all this happens with man knowing that he is mortal and he has to die, yet he tries his best to make good of a bad situation. Man is creative, scientific and vastly complex, he works , he procreates, he makes all forms of entertainment, he has a spiritual side and his own opinions. Why would we not want to be created to begin with, if what you say is true, you would have chosen to end your life, but you know it is not and you are still here. Man's faults are a counterbalance to his unmatched mind and intellect, if man was free of faults, then he would by his own right claim to be more than just a man. Also what "wisdom" is there within any god that would ---ever--- use text form as a form of communication, the worst form of communication possible? in respoinse to this claim, what is the wisdom in using text? I am glad that you asked that. The tablets that were given to Moses would not have been corrupted as easily as oral tradition. why do we have tons of literature about the law to pass on to future generations in text? it is clearly the best way to preserve something unless and until it is corrupted by man, but even after this corruption, it is a better way to safe guard knowledge. Would you have preferred that the bible was passed on verbally? without the text form you would have more cause to deny it and claim that it changed over time. Also people would have been able to change the bible more than they already have, as the social condition of man changed but the scripture was a constant. what is the wisdom besides this? "If god is all knowing and he knows the future of all events and he wrote a book that can only be interpreted as if it endorses slavery and if its heinous violence against your children against your neighbors" how could a god be that omnipotent and devise a book where we can"t distinguish between the law of Israel and god"s law? I mean their interwoven where we have metaphor and fact and nobody can distinguish the two. We don"t know what we"re supposed to take figuratively. We don"t know what we"re supposed to take literally. Was it actually a tree? I mean come on. How can anyone distinguish this. I mean come on. It doesn"t make any sense. It doesn"t matter how its translated. It doesn"t matter what version. If it was written by an omnipotent being there would be ONE VERSION. And there would be only ONE WAY to interpret it because it would be written well." Aron Ra Actually it wouldn"t be written at all. What"s wrong with your god comin" down and talking to people? "Hey you know some of that stuff that"s in the book? I"m here to correct it." Matt Dillahunty First of all, this has nothing to do with the debate at hand, the debate was about if God of the old testament has mercy or not, how can i be asked to debate about your issues with the idea of God's knowledge and how he does things? but none the less, God knew all things and wrote them down, amongst the qualities of God is that he is forbearing, He gave people will and the ability to choose the right path or the wrong path-the greatest proof of this is a consciousness , no one can explain what it is( we have utter speculation and frankly scientific gibberish) , but we all know when we do wrong how we feel. He wrote down all that with knowledge, just as he wrote down that many good people would come to the world and would live good lives. All these quotes you sue are meaningless and irrelevant to our discussion, they refuse to acknowledge the fact that Jews were guilty of knowingly changing the Torah and so where the Christians, if you reject this ,it is not based on scientific analysis but whims and desires. Having said that, How can you ask me what is wrong with God coming down and talking to people, Is it my job to demand or know such a thing? and if people can find faith and believe in God , should he come down just for your sake? that is ridiculous . How can a people who are genocidal , deny God and are cruel demand that God comes down to talk to them? If God was to come down to talk to man, it would negate the need for faith ,belief or scripture . Also whether you say god or God, is pointless but it does show that you are not really debating in good spirit. "We have to rely on copies of copies of anonymous authors with no originals and the textural testimony to a miracle for example, there"s no amount of reports, anecdotal reports that is sufficient to justify in believing that actually happened as reported. And anything that would qualify as a god would clearly understand this and if it wanted to clearly convey this to people in a way that is believable would not be relying on ---TEXT--- to do so. And this to me is the nail in the coffin for Christianity. The god that Christians believe in is amazingly ---STUPID---!!! If it actually wants to achieve its goal by spreading its word to humanity by relying on text, by relying on languages that die off, by relying on anecdotal testimony, that"s not a pathway to truth. And anything that would qualify for a god would know this.which shows either god does not exist or doesn"t care enough about the people to understand the nature of evidence to actually present it. Now which of those two possibilities is accurate?" Matt Dillahunty (Mind you I am not a Christian ) People do not believe In God because of a text, some people do, some believe in God because of the experiences in their lives, others it is a natural sensation, they submit , others it is based on scientific observations, the interconnected universe with all its diversity , size , species and mathematical precision cannot be mere chance lest it would be replicated. So the notion that text is the primary form of belief is flawed, the bible offers to those who believe in God, a way to know his will i.e the ten commandments and at the other end of the spectrum are people who deny God for the same reasons. Why do you take the time and expend effort to mock those who believe in God when it is not your business and you are not their guardians; Similar to the plots 0f the Soviet Union. Of course there"s plenty of other things that god gives unto man with his great divine wisdom such as cancer, Hitler, Mao, smallpox, Stalin, all rapists, his anger, his rage, his fury, his evil, his jealousy. Jealousy? Oh that"s wisdom - right? In which no supreme deity would ever, want, need or desire. So everything bad is from God and everything good is from man? How does that work ? Did God force Hitler, Mao the atheist to do what they did? Cancer is bad for the one who believes that nothing comes after death what he forgets that even f he did not have cancer, he would die of old age or violence , it is just a method of death. Did God force man to use chemicals that would cause cancer? H gave him knowledge and how man chooses to use it is up to man, if God directly intervened then man would have no ability to act independently, and it is this independence that have made him feel self sufficient , arrogant and unjust. "hence we find various contradictions and mistakes and outright inaccuracies..." Well duh. So how do you or anyone know how to properly interpret ANYTHING or even know that this god of YOURS exists by YOUR rules? And to help you out" http://www.newsweek.com...... Newsweek THE BIBLE: SO MISUNDERSTOOD IT'S A SIN By using intellect ,historical sources and clear consensus ,that's how. Here is an example in play, the steady-state theory, the density of matter in the expanding universe remains unchanged due to a continuous creation of matter, thus adhering to the perfect cosmological principle, a principle that asserts that the observable universe is basically the same at any time as well as at any place. (probably believed by thousands of people at some point) Problems with the steady-state theory began to emerge in the 1950s and 60s, when observations began to support the idea that the universe was in fact changing: bright radio sources (quasars and radio galaxies) were found only at large distances (therefore could have existed only in the distant past), not in closer galaxies. and it is dismissed today. The same critical study is applicable to religious literature, using intellect(observation), historical sources( any other recorded data at that period in time) and consensus( other scientists agree to dismiss this make believe) , so can be done for the bible to distinguish truth from falsehood. Going with the merits of the old testament"" There are no merits of the OT. How do you identify fact from fiction? You can"t. - Neither can you prove that it is fiction or entirely false. This statement was meant to stress that I would primarily be using the old testament to make my points (as you defined God in the old testament) it without going into the new testament. the merits only pertain to source not validity, But you did mention free will. Sorry. If you believe in god, then you have no free will, none. You show me anywhere in your bible where it says something to the effect of "I the lard thy god grants man free will." Well the fact that one person believes in God and the other does not is evidence of choice and hence free will , it is a logical deduction, if we all believed in God or we all denied his existence then we would have no free will as it pertains to choice, again my beliefs are irrelevant to this discussion, for all you know I am here only for the art of debating and i would have debated you if you we were taking opposite positions . How can I use the bible to show this when you clearly consider it as fiction, hence you would say it is fiction. your misunderstanding is based in ignorance, you assume that the belief in God is not genuine because you lack it ,which seems as though you want to impose your will upon me using any tactic possible including outright insensitivity, the free will is your ability to mock God or anyone who believes in him, because that is how you choose to exercise it. By using logical deduction, we can see that when you are given everything but told to stay away from one thing, it would imply that you have a choice in the matter to stay way or not. Well that"s a stupid idea to have a test for Adam. much less anyone else. Adam and Eve. What a joke. Adam and Eve were warned only once in the bible and they were essentially children and not thinking adults. So they were incapable of making rational choices. Its like you playing with real guns for the first time as a child. You need to be warned again and again and again and again and again and again time after time to not play with them. Not once. Once will never cut it to their minds, nor to a child"s mind. Even worse is why should I or anyone pay the price for something that happened 6,000 years ago or so? How pathetic. And god knew that Adam and Eve would cause conflict to begin with. Yep. god loves to watch the human race fail. And he knew that they would fail to begin with. god also had to have known that man would fail as well............ that of course is if god is all knowing and all powerful, knows everything and is omnipotent. Yep. And man continues to fail because of YOUR god................................ just how he likes and wants it simply because man believes in this GOD of YOURS. I do not claim ownership of God or the belief in God, so I say God not my God , if you want me to say god or my god, I will say that, it really has no bearing on me, but if it helps you win the debate or channel your rage, then it is okay, if wanted to clarify, it cannot frustrate me . Why is it stupid for a test? essentially children? that is a leap of faith; where is your proof of this, from what we can gather they were fully mature adults capable of independent reasoning and at that time , the concept of children was no existent. I do not know whether this is a rant or an argument; Mind you adults also shoot themselves with guns after a lifetime of warning about them. So your premise is that Adam was a child and should have been warned multiple times, would that have changed the outcome? Does Adam's eating from the tree mean that humankind failed? that definition of failure is only in an extreme irrational material sense , one that is incapable of seeing beyond that. By extension, This test replies each day someone does what they are forbidden to do, that is there tree, the tree of desire, so you find people cheating on their wives, killing and murdering for money, fame and wealth, how can you understand this as stupid because you cannot permit a definition of mercy besides how you see fit? "the implied struggle between good and evil as evidenced to this very day" Well YOUR god created evil because he"s evil. After all he freely admitted it far too many times in YOUR bible for him to NOT be evil. Strange isn"t it that in comparison that the Inca, many of the native American Indian tribes until your white man greasy sweaty racist pig christian wiped them out, the aborigines, Hindu"s, Gaia Mother Earth, Buddhists etc etc etc they do not practice nor preach nor go to war over their religions, not anywhere close to the evils nor hate that the christians do. Now why is that? And yet according to your god worshiping other gods is considered to be the most evil thing there is and you should be stoned to death for it. So you follow your lord"s orders and you come on down here and stone me to death. Whatsamatter? You are not going to follow your god"s orders? Why? Why not? My God created evil because he is evil? is this a fact? You deny God exists and yet you acknowledge that he created evil , (who created good and why do you see only negative? on top of that God said do good and shun evil as evidenced by the ten commandments , why is it his fault when you choose evil) , but if he created evil, what proof do you have of this? When God created a human as a baby, do you see babies having evil in their hearts? this is something that is learned and it is not part of human nature , a choice that's why some people steal because they are poor and others do not steal even if they are poor. Sometimes Parents have to discipline their children , should the children say that the parents are the incarnation of evil because they have been punished ? Did God come down and manifest evil ?and the Inca(Many of these people practiced human sacrifices - are those people you are praising?) well the Caucasian people who were guilty of using religion for their own means cannot be equated to genuine Christianity in which Jesus said turn the other cheek. This is self evident. The hypocrisy of man cannot be blamed on God , what about the people who practice what they preach? Idol worship is treason( from the old testament view point) , as it is a clear lie by those standards and if the penalty for it is as you describe , are you advocating for me to come and impose death on a stranger I met on debate.org? One who may not have knowledge, also God did not impose this responsibility on all those who believe in him, what he imposed on them is among other things mainly the ten commandments. Whatever is imposed on the authorities is not imposed on him, we can debate the merits of that command . And there you go into the free will thingy again. If god were god, he could easily take the evil out of free will. But no. Your god in being pure 100% evil, he leaves evil in free will such as the raping of a 6 year old girl by daddy while he punches her in the face for 13 years sometimes twice per week. The worst thing about it is this god of YOURS gives more value to daddy than to the little girl as she has no free will whatsoever to escape and SCREAM as loud as she can. Oh indeed as you stated "his purpose ,and the manifestation". You got that one right. But then again there is no free will IF you believe in your god who you cannot even prove exists. God has promised a day of reckoning ,{ Amos 5:18 Woe to those who wish for the day of the Lord! Why do you want the Lord"s day of judgment to come? It will bring darkness, not light.} a day on which the scales will be balanced , When those who did evil are repaid and those who did good are rewarded .....When did God command the raping and killing of a 6 year old? Where is this in the old testament as a command? This dad did it by choice , why is it God's fault that such a man imposes such evil? How did he give more value to the father who is exercising evil on his daughter? How exactly is that God's fault? One day he will grant her and her father and will give her justice, that is the promise laid bare in scripture and the reason for faith, what about this man, why do you not lay blame on him like you have on the racist pig Christians(really, is this necessary?) or does this man get a pass because he does not believe in God? And if God does not exist as you claim, then man is solely the cause of all evil Then you get into sin. I shall shut that one down right now because it does not exist in your bible as its a wall of hypocritical contradictory (1 of a good thousand or so making your bible truly unreadable) confusion. Does every man sin? Yes. There is no man who does not sin (I Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and I John 1:810) No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.. (I John 5:1). We should be called children of God; and so we are (I John 3: 1). He who loves is born of God (I John 4:7). No one born of God commits sin; for Gods nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God (I John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (I John 1:8) Wow are you obsessed with this Adam and Eve garden of eden nonsense. Well gee there are many stories in the bible that were plagiarized. Oh let"s start off with the great flood shall we? Sheesh. Adam and Eve. Is this how you intend to win this debate? You can refer to my arguments as nonsense but do not dismiss them as such, how can you say" Wow you are obsessed" I am only trying to make a point, you can dispute me on the facts or the flaws in my logic , "sheesh "(really) why don't you be original and show me the flaw of my reasoning? Why are you sing the new testament book of John? What does that have to do with God's mercy in the old testament? What does Jesus have to do with the original premise of the debate (something I clarified in the beginning and you immediately mocked me) ? According to the old testament, sin is well defined in the old testament for example , You should tell him that I am about to judge his house forever because of the sin that he knew about. For his sons were cursing God, and he did not rebuke them (Samuel 3:13) "The act of creation is the single greatest act of love in the universe," Yet you cannot even prove it happened. So I will flatly ignore that paragraph. If you want to talk about something, then you need to come up with some actual evidence. You cannot come in here and say "this is this" and expect me or anyone to swallow it. K? Umm, I did by explaining the merits of having life and the benefits of being human , why don't you challenge those merits, Please refer to prior entry. "Another thing we should consider about God in the old testament is that , he made laws and gave man the choice to follow them,"Oh no he most certainly did not!!!! Threatening people with death is NOT giving people a choice. Deuteronomy 13 speaks very highly of that. Especially 9-10. "But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage." So once again come on down here and stone me to death because I 100% KNOW differently for your sad pathetic frail god. Deuteronomy 17: 2-5 states the same thing. AND 4 of the 10 commandments also threaten people with death if broken. Again threatening people with death is NOT giving people a choice. If I was threatened with death for something I do not want to do, I would never do it. rest assured, that Jefferson said , " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure," Jefferson " Did he not just threaten us with death if we opposed liberty? Why do you selectively respond to my arguments? Having choice entails an explanation of the consequences, the same way in our society a murderer ends up in prison, he would not say if only I was not aware of the consequences, I would have free will, our society operates solely on threats, that's why we have the police and justice system , it is human nature. It feels to me that this debate is very personal and you seem to be doing more soul searching than debating, I admire your candor but I would prefer an actual point and counter point not rants, quotes, insults. I apologize if you were offended when I called out prophet richard dawkins, I do not worship him and neither do I take his opinions as absolutes , I believe in rational