Lucifer is not Satan

I’ll start by taking stock. The original thesis was that the reference to Lucifer was a single point in the bible regarding a King of Babylon. In round 2 we proved there were multiple references centuries apart to Lucifer as an ongoing activity and that these latin references occurred within a context of other Latin writings both Christian and pagan which explicated what we know about Lucifer. The second thesis has been an overall attack on the entire biblical doctrine of angels. a) That Angels fell in a rebellion against God. b) That Lucifer/Satan led the rebellion. c) That the rebellion was unsuccessful and that angels were cast into hell. and additionally specific to this argument:d) Seraphim, Cherubim . .. are types of angels. At this point the debate has moved well beyond the specific of Lucifer and Satan into a totally variant theory of angels. I’m going to give standard sources for the normative definition of and history of angels, the last 2300 years of theology, which prove a-d. 1) CCC has authoritative statements on angels: . http://tinyurl.com...2) Summa Theologica has a dozen chapters on angels: . http://www.newadvent.org...3) Catholic Encyclopedia: . http://www.newadvent.org...4) Jewish Encyclopedia: . http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com...5) Wikipedia: . http://en.wikipedia.org...6) Carm entry: . http://carm.org...7) Baker’s theological dictionary: . http://www.biblestudytools.com... No tie between Lucifer and Satan Of course the most common tie belief between Lucifer and Satan is precisely what we have been talking about in the previous rounds. That Satan is often identified as the fake deity. His very name plays into that theme. Easter Vigil: Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen. Lucifer descends into the darkness and emerges the fake “Morning Star” of the sky that deceives those who do not have knowledge of the true “Morning Star” of Christ. Just as the Jews hunted after military messiahs like Bar Kochba, just as the pagans fell away to fake saviors like Dionysus, to fake teachers like Hermes Trismegistus; that is Lucifer. Col 1:16, Heb 1:14 identifies Christ as the rightful leader of the angels. Lucifer is the leader of the angels. Revelations 12:7-9 dragon identified in verse 9 as Satan has a legion of angels in his command. And this leads to worship of the beast as a fake god (Rev 13:12). In Isaiah 14:13-4 Lucifer attempts to pass God, while in Genesis 3:5 Satan’s whole claim is that through knowledge, “You shall be as God”. In terms of extra biblical sources, Summa Summa Theologica I.63.5. A (the section on the malice of the angels) is explicit, for it is said of the devil under the figure of the prince of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12): "How art thou fallen . . . O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning! " Summa I.63.3. C identifies person of the devil with Lucifer. . http://www.newadvent.org...; Summa I.63.7. A . .. Hence Gregory says that he who sinned was the very highest of all. This seems to be the more probable view: because the angels' sin did not come of any proneness, but of free choice alone. .. . because there might be some motive for sinning in him also who was the chief of the lower angels. There are similar comments in Augustine’s City of God that I’m cutting for length. The Qu’ran 5 times identifies falling angel as Satan: . http://www2.iath.virginia.edu... Besides theology this theme is picked up on the most important literary works about the nature of Hell. Milton in Paradise Lost is even more explicit: X.424-6: Of Pandæmonium, Citie and proud seateOf Lucifer, so by allusion calld, Of that bright Starr to Satan paragond. In VII.131- 4 Raphael is relating the fall of Satan he uses the name “Lucifer” Know then, that after Lucifer from Heav'n(So call him, brighter once amidst the HostOf Angels, then that Starr the Starrs among)Fell with his flaming Legions through the Deep Dante’s Inferno ends with a visit to the 9th circle of Hell meeting Lucifer, Hell’s king The Emperor of the kingdom dolorous. .. Were he as fair once, as he now is foul, And lifted up his brow against his Maker. .. I lifted up mine eyes and thought to see Lucifer in the same way I had left him;. http://en.wikisource.org...; _____ Literal vs. symbolic In terms of the biblical interpretation one of the issues that arises is an unjustified use in the Pro on what is symbolic and what is literal. The case takes parts of verses right next to one another and move from one view to the other. In particular the issue of jewels which he sees as literal while having been to eden is symbolic. Just to refute this argument we note that in Exodus 24:10 the language of gems is applied to God. In Rev 21:18-21 language used to describe “King of Tyre” gems heaven. Beryl, onyx jasper. .. As an aside, more evidence since the King of Tyre not been to heaven. In terms of the Lucifer is a man issue that’s been fully refuted in round 2. Supernatural heavenly being, i. e. the spiritual representation of what we call the planet Venus. The same way that Jesus is the spiritual representation of the word of God or Mars is the representation of war. Humans don’t represent planets; and Nergal (Mars) 2Kings 17:30 and Nebo (Mercury) Isa 46:1 are not human. “ Con is merely assuming Satan must have been among them [the devils in Hell]” and “Satan was ever an “angel. .. .. How does he know he wasn't a Seraph, Cherub, or other spirit being? ” Saint Denis the Celestial Hierarchy (De Coelesti Hierarchia) and St. Thomas (Summa Theologica I:108), following St. Denis divides the angels into three hierarchies each of which contains three orders. Their proximity to the Supreme Being serves as the basis of this division. In the first hierarchy he places the Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones; in the second, the Dominations, Virtues, and Powers; in the third, the Principalities, Archangels, and Angels. If we want biblical evidence that Satan is the king of Hell: Luke 11:18, “ If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? ” Or Matthew 25:41 “The devil and his angels. ” “The king was anointed, so what? So was Cyrus. ” This one is a partial sentences. Lucifer is an anointed cherub not just anointed. Cyrus was anointed as king not with a heavenly office. Ordering of events: There are a variety of claims about when various things happen in hell. Order of events is a property of matter. We live in space-time not just in space. There is no “before” or “after” or now from our perspective for things non-material. Even for the semi-material the order of events breaks down, faster than light travel with respect on one frame is travel backwards in time with respect to another. Unless you want God / Satan / Jesus. .. . bound to a particular location in space-time and unable to travel faster than the speed of light we can’t order their events meaningfully. "Hell" is a mistranslation in this verse. .. . So the text is talking about Tartarus, not hades (hell) This was an the argument to drop 2Pet 2:4. The truth is that Tartarus is Hell while, Hades is just the afterlife. Tartarus is the realm of punishment for the wicked: Now in the days of Cronos there existed a law respecting the destiny of man, which has always been, and still continues to be in . .. he who has lived unjustly and impiously shall go to the house of vengeance and punishment, which is called Tartarus. (Plato, Gorgias . http://en.wikisource.org...) Cross-X Because we have been differing so heavily on definitions:1) What are devils? 2) What is Satan?3) How do you know Satan is a devil (the devil)?4) What are angels? 5) What is your biblical basis for rejecting the notion that devils are angels in rebellion?