Jack Bauer is superior to Jason Bourne (David Webb)

"... my opponent has dropped all of the arguments I have made in my proponent" Hardly, the opening was constructive only to balance the constructive opening of Pro. "As a parent, it is understandable to be concerned for a daughter if she is in potential danger, even if that means denying a dangerous mission." His daughter did not "run away" she snuck out, and which part of over reacting to his daughter leaving the house or refusing a mission indicates he is a superior agent/father exactly? "Obviously Mason was no field agent, but jack knew that the action was nessicary." Not only is it not necessary, however it is another example of behavior which is almost idiotic in terms of tactical operation. Consider : -The drug in the Tranquilizer could cause a reaction with Mason if he is allergic. -Even if Mason is not allergic, he could be on a medication that day which could cause a reaction/death. -Tranquilizers are dose specific, there is no indication that Bauer calculated the dose required for Mason, this could have lead to the dose being in effective or Mason being killed -Tranquilizer guns are hardly 100%, if he was in fact a superior combat/tactical agent he could have subdued him physically with little effort and again, no one watching that would think he was superior in regards to tactical positioning or direct combat ability. This is not a video game where every now and again Bauer demonstrates a finishing move, if he is a superior combat tactician it would be exhibited in all such interactions, such as by Bourne, not simply on occasion. "He in no way handles his family experiences wrong given his situation." The argument was not that his family was a target, it was how he was easily manipulated by his daughter and wife showing that he had both no EQ, little to no understanding of social dynamics, and apparently no experience/memory of talking to his daughter/wife as both of them were obviously repeating past behavior of which he was completely oblivious. Watching that conversation after the end of the Chess Game was like watching JustCallMeTarzan arguing with GodSands about Evolution, there is a strange mix of pity and incredulence at GodSands/Bauer. Not to mention of course his marriage FAILED and they separated and his daughter tells people he is dead - again how is that a superior husband/father? "So really what grounds would this argument claim to his lack of awareness?" Again, to repeat the argument - he left his six open, he was completely oblivious to the possibility of a second line of threat. These concepts are so fundamental, so basic that even kids playing paintball will discuss them. Thus Bauer does not have the level of tactical awareness of an average paintballer[1]. The fact that he Bond-Fluked into getting out alive while getting his boss killed again in no way would lead anyone to say he was superior as an agent, superior as a tactical operative, superior at protecting someone in his care, or superior in assessing threats. The level of incompetence he displayed here would lead him to be superior only to maybe Inspector Clouseau in somehow being able to survive while wandering in oblivion. "And this somehow makes Bourne superior?" It shows his level of combat ability. Now if you want to talk about morality/crime, Bourne, even though he could easily kill/incapacitate Marie chooses instead to pay her because while his training provides a level of reactionary ability, his conscious morality makes him protective of her even though she is a complete unknown. "If you were to count the number of enemies he defeats in each season, which takes place all in a day each, you would be baffled." If we would argue on quantity alone then George Dillman would be the greatest martial artist of all time as he constantly renders scores of people unconscious on a daily basis[2]. Of course the relevant point is that this only happens when they actually play along and don't "flip their toes up and down". Quality counts. "Jason made choices to get him lack of support, and this in no way makes him more superior." The fact that he can succeed with out the extensive support indicates superior ability, the fact that he can withstand as noted the crushing pressure of threats on his life with no memory of who he was and does not even show frustration/pity but just resolve indicates a level of mental strength which dwarfs Bauer, who when he was breaking down with his wife letting her know their daughter was kidnapped, not only was he not focused on calming his wife, he was actually engaging in a self-pity argument about how it was all his fault. Again, no where does that indicate superior behavior of any type from Bauer. "... that is irrelevant to his characters superiority." Peer review is a credible source. As an additional reference, when asked for comment, Jack Burton noted : "Bourne, yeah, let me tell you about Bourne. We were in Quigley's not five minutes when some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs his neck, taps the back of his favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks him crooked in the eye and he asks have ya paid your dues. Bourne just stares that big sucker right back in the eye, "Have ya paid your dues? Yessir, the check is in the mail". Bourne is like ice man, nothing phases him." "... coming dangerously close to death a few times in each cases." Bourne has to at times fight people who are highly trained and he is under the severe disadvantage of being the target (and again when he has no memory and has no idea what is happening). If he could trivially eliminate agents such as the one he incapicated with a pen in the first movie it would be nothing but Spider-Man vs Firelord round deux. The obvious point is to look at those exchanges and note the level of skill, strength, creativity, focus and resolve and compare that to the meanderings of Bauer who would have been destroyed in any of the exchanges faster than BOxxy could resume control of /b/. "Jack is tortured horribly, and never once reveals any information, even to the point where he dies(before being revived), and then escaping." And you see in the Bourne movies where Bourne shows less physical and mental resolve? "1. He's a better Combatant, 2. He's a better tactician, 3. People like Bauer better still. 4. He's a better strategist, 5. He's more experienced, 6. Jack eliminates foes with ease, 7. Jack can do almost any task given to him on the spot." None of these were argued successfully, in fact in regards to #1, #2 and #3 and #6 Bauer indicates as noted incompetence, not superiority. He may be more popular, that is however a horrible metric for being superior in any kind of general sense, especially for a field agent. "Who should we pick for the operation Firestorm Bill? What about Harve?" "Harve is good, no doubt about that, his tactical ability is second to none, but no one here really likes him and quite frankly I think he is a bit of a nob. What about Sally, everyone likes her and she always has a full turn out at her parties?" Insensible to use popularity as a measure of superior in this context. In regards to experience and flexibility, nothing has been argued to show these are superior in terms of effect, just asserted. To extend, Bourne shows superior : -Combat ability. -Tactical awareness. -A constant level of emotional resolve and strength of character which is nothing short of inspirational and is able to function under high stress/threat completely isolated and alone. -Tactical improvision/assessment.. -Consistent peer praise. While Bauer shows : -Sad combat ability -No tactical awareness -Poor husband/father [1] http://www.facebook.com... [2] http://www.youtube.com...