Baptism is the Point at which a believer becomes a Christian,

Round 3 Sword master Response: Andy again thanks for your participation in this debate from the bottom of my heart I feel honored to have this debate. Now I would like to take what you said peace by peace and give it the honor due it. You said 1."Would you agree that a saving belief is an obedient belief?" Of course saving belief leads naturally to obedience. But be aware you must have saving belief in Christ 1st if you didn't have saving belief in Christ you wouldn't bother to obey anything he said belief precedes actions. Sword master response: At the top of this debate I talked about belief and used John 3:16, showing it is a verbal noun, a participle. It reads in the Greek …."That who so ever believing in him…" believeth does not bring out what Jesus said. Saving belief is a belief that obeys. So this is one of my 3 questions I will ask you. 1.In Acts 2:37 Were these people saved at this point? 2. Did they have saving faith in verse 37? 3.And in verse 47 were these people saved at this point? 4.If you agreed that they were not saved in verse 37, and they had saving belief, at what point were they baptized? You Said: My question 2."At what point does belief save?" Your Answer; At the point of confession Romans 10:9-10 NKJV Question How does Romans 6:7 fit into Rom 10:9-10? In order to be saved, the gospel must be obeyed. 2 Thess. 1:8-9, You have totally ignored that passage and grab Rom 10:8-9 saying this is my verse, and it defeats your verse. Now I know you did not verbalize that. But it comes across that way. So how do we harmonize them? It cannot be saying you can be saved either by belief or obedience to the gospel through baptism? That would be contradicting other passages in the same book and invalidate God's power to save. Thus the Atheist would have a leg to stand on, when they say the bible contradicts itself. So please explain to me how Rom 6:7 "For he who has died has been freed from sins." Fits into Rom 10:9-10. I will go deeper into this in my next post, I just don't have the space in this post. Next can an unrepented sinner, be saved? Does Rom 10:9-10 command repentance verbally? How does Rom 10:9-10 Harmonize with Luk 13:3? In the same way you harmonize the command to repent, I can harmonize baptism. You said: My question 3."Please explain Matt 7:21?" Your answer: We must do the will of the father in heaven the works we do are evidence of whose children we are if their evil were children of the devil if their good were of god merely calling god are father isn't enough everyone likes to think of themselves as gods children although their not. My response: Question: Were these People aware of their spiritual state in Matt 7:21 You Said Besides your quote from Ed Wharton's Church of Christ your argument can be reduced to water baptism is obedience to the gospel you rip peter out of context so i'll ignore that now time for my questions 1. Why would someone have the desire to obey if they didn't first have saving belief. My response: It would be illogical to obey God if a person is not believing as John 3:16 teaches. You asked 2. I agree god wouldn't give us something to obey if he didn't give us a way to obey it and baptism isn't something all can be obedient to what about the theifon the cross he didn't have that ability to obey it My response: I have heard the theif on the cross argument all my life, and it is rather Simple I will answer this in 2 ways that harmonize. 1.Heb 9:16-17, For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Note which covenant was the thief on the cross under? The answer is simple, the covenant of Moses. When did the Covenant of Christ come into effect? According to the Hebrew writer, After Christ resurrection. Well then was the thief under the new testament of Christ? The bible teaches he was dead, therefore the thief on the cross was not a qualified candidate for Christian baptism, sense he was he died before the Christian era. 2.I proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that when a person today is baptized into Christ, that he is baptized into his death, It would have been impossible for the thief to be baptized into the death of Christ, sense Christ has not yet died, or been buried or resurrected. Not Lets Get More proofs that a person must be baptized into Christ in order to be d=saved. I want you all to turn your bible to Rom. 8:2, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." I want everybody to notice the Location, IN CHRIST!!!" ἐν this is the Greek characters, In English is looks like this en, It means IN, which indicates Location of the individual. Strongs dictionary means "location. inside" Where must one be located in order to be freed from the law of sin and death? Inside Christ, In Christ which say the same thing. 1Cor 1:30,But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption-- Now the same word in, which indicates Location of the individual is used here. The Point is Only those who are IN CHRIST JESUS our Lord are in a saved state. So How does one get into Christ to be in this saved state? Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. & Rom 6:3-4 "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life teach us how one gets into Christ." The word Into, means the process of moving from one point into another, With a view towards, and to enter into. In both places baptism is what puts one into Christ, which teaches beyond a shadow of an doubt, that one enters Christ. If baptism puts one into Christ, (which it does) Than baptism of a believer in Christ is the point of their salvation." Consider the Apostle Paul. (Please read verses 1-18) Correct my points if they are not facts. 1.Saul wanted to arrest Christians and got the authority to do so. Vs 1-3 2.Jesus appears to him on the road to Damascus, and identifies Himself as the person Paul is persecuting. Vs 4-5 3.Saul is terrified and asked Jesus what Jesus would have him do? Vs 6 4.Saul was three days without food or site. Vs 8-9 5.Jesus instructs Ananias and says Saul is Praying. Vs 11-12 6.Ananias went his way and did what God instructed him to. Vs 13-17 7.Paul is baptized for the remission of his sins according Acts 22:16, Paul fasted and prayed in his blind state and the guilt of his sin still remained until he was baptized. Only one baptism Eph. 4:5, and that baptism is how one obeys the gospel of Christ, which is God's power to save, and how one gets into Christ, and Saul who became the Apostle Paul, had to be baptized, (even though he fasted and Prayed), He still needed to be baptized in order to get his sins forgiven, in order to get into Christ, and his saving belief, could not do it alone, but propelled him into obedience to the gospel that did save him. The definations I have given were from Strongs and vines greek dictionary. These are the only 2 sources I will use this time. in Christ Tim