Kylo Ren vs Luke Skywalker

Thank you for your response Defense: Force abilities: Con says that force telekinesis was not special. You can degrade this ability all you want, but you end up digging a hole for yourself. Luke Skywalker has never displayed this ability in canon sources. Also, you did not counter the assertion of force immobilization which is very effective in torture, and killing people with any method the user wants. I also would like to say that comparing the Jedi in the prequels to Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker is very unfair. The Jedi in the prequels would beat both Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker. Con also never really compares Kylo Ren to Luke Skywalker. All he really says is that since Luke is related to Vader, Luke is stronger in the force. I already responded to this argument in the previous round. I stated that even if Luke has more force potential, you cannot deny that Kylo Ren has better experience and training in the force. Kylo Ren received training from Skywalker, Knights of Ren(probably just killing Jedi), and maybe a few lessons with Snoke. Luke Skywalker in canon sources has only been shown with Yoda two times. Here are the force abilities: Luke Skywalker: Force Augmentation(Jumps) Picking up things(Basic, and lower level force abilities) Able to see visions of the future Kylo Ren Force Immobilization(Con has dropped this argument) Force Torture(Used against Finn and Rey) Force Rage(Luke cannot handle force rage as seen in Empire Strikes Back) Picking up things(Kylo Ren choking one of his lieutenants) The State of the Force(Kylo Ren was able to feel the awakening) I conclude that Kylo Ren would win this point seeing as how Ren has mastered two more abilities than Luke. Luke has only the lower level abilities. Arguments made on Luke's genetics is irrelevant, because he has not displayed these abilities in canon sources. Kylo Ren has displayed all of these abilities in The Force Awakens. Lightsaber Combat: Con claims that my claim was weak when Kylo Ren slaughtered all of Luke's apprentices. Pro says that Ren probably just killed ten year olds, when in the vision it shows Kylo Ren stabbing someone with a weird weapon. Kylo Ren also was apart of the Jedi Academy. This must mean that this academy must have had force sensitives with him that were his age. Either way, Ren probably got in a lightsaber fight with an Old Luke, or some Jedi students. All we know is that he killed all of them. Also, Con again never compares Luke to Ren. Luke Skywalker never really is seen having that much experience either. All he really does is fight Vader who does not want to kill him. I have already proven this. Kylo Ren on the other hand has had experience fighting with people that actually wanted to kill him such as Finn, Rey, and Jedi Students. When Vader is trying, Luke is usually outmatched. This is seen in The Empire Strikes Back where Vader just starts throwing tons of strikes at Luke. Luke falls in twenty seconds. If Luke can not even handle that, than he would certainly not be able to handle Kylo Ren's unpredictable style. Finn and Rey: If Con is going to attack Kylo Ren's abilities with these claims, than he has to address what I said in round two. I have already stated that Kylo Ren lost due to being shot in the stomach by Chewbacca's bowcaster. Now, in TFA, the weapon is stressed has extremely powerful. When Han and Chewie are escaping, Han Solo almost always freaks about how powerful the gun is. It takes one shot to kill someone with it. Kylo Ren took the shot to the stomach, and proceeded in the duel with Finn and Rey. This already displays that Kylo Ren wins the point on pain tolerance. Kylo Ren is also shown moving slower in the duel, and taking his time addressing the wound which I do admit was a poor decision in the long run(hitting the wound). But, Kylo Ren also would have just defeated Rey I believe if he did not try to offer teaching lessons to Rey. Kylo Ren never intended on killing Rey, the same way Vader never intended on killing Luke. Prime: Con claims that I have dug myself a whole, but all I was saying is that Ren would be a lot faster and ferocious if he had not been shot by Chewbacca. The circumstances are undeniably unfair to Kylo Ren in TFA. I bet if Luke was shot by a bowcaster, and had to fight Kylo Ren. Luke Skywalker would easily have been defeated. That is unfair to both sides. That is why I am not going to say to Pro. I am going to specifically compare Luke in A New Hope. That would be very unfair. All I am saying is that Ren would be a lot stronger if he was not in the circumstances he was in. How this Duel would play out: I appreciate how Con has considered Luke's personality in this, but Con still has not used any examples from canon sources. Luke Skywalker is shown to be in intense pressure whenever he is confronted with an aggressive duelist. This was shown in the Empire Strikes Back. Darth Vader just started to throw unpredictable strikes causing Luke to fall in 10-20 seconds. This same weakness would be exploited by an already unorthodox Kylo Ren. My opponent already has stated Kylo Ren would use force rage. He fails however to cite any canon sources stating how Luke would respond to force rage. Con says Kylo Ren has limited energy, but never cites TFA for an example of this. I would also like to note that Kylo Ren's pain tolerance would also play a big role in helping him win this fight. Luke might be able to put some jabs with his lightsaber, but that would just strengthen Kylo Ren's force rage increasing his unpredictability. I cannot see Luke winning this duel, because of Luke's experience and face it force orientation. He really would just fall, and be killed by Kylo Ren. Points that Kylo Ren wins on: Force Abilities Lightsaber Skills Pain Tolerance(which Con dropped) Luke Skywalker Force Potential(which is irrelevant, because it is never displayed in Canon sources) Thank you Con for accepting this debate. I have enjoyed it as much as you have. I think that Kylo Ren and Luke are really fun to compare.