Best Argument(s) for Mainstream Theism

I agree there was an unintended shift in the debates subject, But I too am ok with that and I will roll with it. I am enjoying our chat/debate. You said, "In addressing whether religion is good for society, It makes sense to determine what is necessary for society. I would think it inarguable that among other things, Society needs order. The government imposes this order through law. Religion influences this order through sin. "I suppose you would have to specify which government and time period we are referring to. The separation of church and state in America was intentionally installed as a proactive measure to remove religious authoritarianism from governmental affairs. It is true, At least in the US where I am from, That religion has no direct influence in government affairs; however, The Cathloc reign was not such a distant past where it was a direct influence, Prior to the foundation of our country. This being said, Religious dogma still finds a way to bleed into politics and law through radical politicians and other religious apologists. Third world Islamic countries are still under the direct influence of Islamic law (Sharia). I would argue that religion does not offer order through sin, Since there is virtually no such thing as an unforgiveable sin. Apostacy, Or turning away from God/not believing is the only punishable sin by Christian theology. Murderers, Rapists, Etc all go to heaven if they believe, According to Christian doctrine. I'm unclear which religion you are referring to when you mention sin, But I assume it's Christianity since it's heavily structured around original sin. You said "Before I get into the details, It’s worth noting the difference in the terms I used here, Impose vs. Influence. The reason I chose those terms is that if you break a law, The penalties from the government vary from fines to imprisonment to death. The penalties from mainstream religion for sinning are much less tangible, Perhaps a threat of damnation for true believers. Nevertheless, Sin is an effective tool in providing structure for the lives of many people. "I would totally disagree with this. Religion is littered with useless proclamations of sin. For example, Boiling a baby goat in it's mothers milk is sinful according to Islamic doctrine. Why is this important to know and how does this provide structure for peoples lives? Wearing two types of linen is sinful according to Christian doctrine. Why is this important to know and how does it provide structure for peoples lives? I could list things all day, But the point I am trying to make is that there is nothing people get from religious doctrine that cannot be obtained elsewhere in relation to morality and structure. There is no threat of damnation if the person is a true believer. You said "By the way, It’s no coincidence that there is a tremendous overlap between secular laws and religious sins. It all has the same source. It all comes from our natural sense of morality. This stems from humans evolving from community animals. Community animals rely on members of the pack to behave in a manor that enhances the wellbeing of the pack. Individual pack members that work well with other pack members in activities such as hunting, Defending the pack and raising offspring, Get the opportunity to breed and pass along their ‘good’ genes. On the other hand individuals that are anti-social, Overly aggressive, Or otherwise harmful to the wellbeing of the pack are driven off or killed and do not get a chance to pass along their ‘bad’ genes. Millions of years of this process has given us an instinct to be good community members. We call this instinct our conscience. "I totally agree on the evolutionary argument you made, But I disagree that it overlaps religion. Morals are not derived from religion, And religion is certainly not the centerpiece for morality or secular law. Islam advocates domestic violence and murder (apostates and infidels), Which is illegal by secular law. Christianity advocates slavery and mysogeny, Which is illegal by secular law. I could go on, But I'm not trying to bash religion, Just make a point. There are some things that overlap between secular law and religion, But secular law is not derived from religion, Nor does it share a common source, Otherwise we would still be living in a bronze age culture. Religion's moral system is based on divine command theory and it's immutable, Secular morality is based on well being and it's capable of changing with the demands and evolution of society. They are not overlapping or in support of each other. I look forward to your rebuttals :)