Predestination

As I said, I have wanted to debate somone who is scripturally learned on this topic for a long time, and I thank you for that chance. First off, let me asure you that I do not believe God ordains every one of every mans actions. I believe that God ordains the salvation of those whom He chooses, but I do not believe that He is dictating our every movement and thought. If God dictated our every move and thought, it would defeat the purpose of creating us in the first place. God created us to love and obey Him, and if He forced us to love and obey Him, what would be the point? I believe that we as men have free will that we exercise daily and in most circumstances, but God has pre-ordained our ending. "A major problem with your view of predestination is that many things come to pass on a daily basis that are sinful and evil. If man truly does not have a free will and God ordered everything to come to pass, then God becomes the source of all the evil in the world, an idea I believe we must reject! " Yes, we must reject this idea, because it is simply not true. God is not the founder of sin, man is. A ruler may forbid treason in his country, but that does not obligate him to do all in his power to prevent it, just as God hates sin, but allows it. It just may happen that the kingdom may learn something from the suffering that the treason brings, so that they may be better prepared to say no to it next time. The Bible makes it clear that all sin and evil are under God's perfect control. Job says thats "both the deceived and the deceiver are his", implying that God is in control of all evil. If God hates sin so much, and sin is under his divine authority, then how can you say that this makes God the author of sin? In allowing sin, God is simply using the tactic that many parents use; issue a command not to do such-and-such, and when the one who received the command continue is defiance (which in our depraved state of mind it is impossible for us to discontinue this thought process) God simply lets us proceed in the evil act so that we can learn from our mistake. This is not wrong of God, because God is not the one committing the sin, but the one allowing the sin to be committed. Is it wrong for the parent to allow the child to touch the stove after they continue to warn the child, but the child refuses to heed the warning? In the Garden of Eden, God told Adam not to eat the fruit, but gave him the free will to choose for himself whether or not to eat it. When Adam chose to eat the fruit, man fell. This makes man the origin of sin on earth. A perfect God CANNOT be the origin of sin, because it goes against His nature. Even if Gods gift of salvation was free, it would be impossible for man to accept it, because it goes against his inherent sinful nature. I realize you addressed this in your argument, but what Pelagius said goes against what God Himself said: Romans 3:10-12--- "As it is writen, 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; There have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one. '" Your last argument is, summed up, that God changes His mind, and does not therefore set anything in stone, because it all depends on what man through his free will decides. This argument I think is fatally flawed. First off, God Himself says that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. This implies that God CANNOT AND WILL NOT ever change. You actually quoted a verse that contradicts what you say in this paragraph: "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, WHO DOES NOT CHANGE LIKE THE SHIFTING SHADOWS. " (James 1:13-15; 17) If God changed His mind, it would go against what these scriptures teach. Also, I think it necessary to point out that saying God changes his mind implies that what He thought of doing first was wrong, taking away that title of infallible God. May I point out the fact that you have already denied God two of his attributes, which denies Him His sovereignty. Also, if God is ready to deal out justice, and then the one who He intended to judge turned and repented causing God to have to reconsider his judgement, it would imply that God did not know the person would turn and repent. This would take away the title of omnicient God. Now that makes three attributes you have denied God. I think that saying God changes his mind totally denies His deity. My explaination, then, for the verses you present is this: It is a warning, not a promise. God, once again, is using a tactic often used by parents. He is saying, for the benefit of man, that if you do this, then this will happen, and if you do this, then this will happen. God ultimately knows what they will cjoose, but he is showing them the consequences if they disobey, and the reward if they obey. "On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: ‘Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned. " " (John 3:4) This, then, is a warning, not a promise. Man needs this sort of thing to see exactly how terrible his sin is. God new that Nineveh would repent. Even Jonah knew they would repent, because he was mad at God for having mercy. "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had THREATENED. " (Jonah 3:10) This, then, is what God knew would happen all along. Here it says plainly that it was a warning, not a promise. "In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, ‘This is what the Lord says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover. ' " (2 Kings 20:1). Once again, this is how God shows man just how terrible his sin is. God is showing Hezekiah that his sin is deserving of immidiate death, as is our sin today. However, because of God's mercy. .. "Go back and tell Hezekiah, the leader of my people, ‘This is what the Lord, God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the Lord. I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for My sake and for the sake of my servant David. ' " . .. He spared Hezekiah's life. God never intended to take his life, because He knew that Hezekiah would repent. God simply uses these warnings to remind us of what our transgressions are deserving of. This argument applies to all of the verses that you presented to me, so because of my lack of space I will not address them all individually. In your next argument, I would be grateful if you could address the points of my first argument that you did not in this argument, now that I have rebuttled your argument. As of right now, it still stands. I would also be grateful if you could answer my question of why, as a believer in free will, you pray for the salvation of unbelievers, and I would also like you to answer this question: Denying God, and not believenf in Him, I think we can agree is a sin. However if unbelief is a sin, how can you say that not all people are going to heaven? Did God not die for all sin? Or is it that Jesus' death on the cross was enough for all, but was not intended for all, as Mark 4:10-12 suggests? Thanks! Renzzy