Conditional Election

1. "How God chooses to set up the process of salvation is up to him, So answering or not answering the rest of this question doesn't disprove my argument biblically. Here's a question: why did God create us? For his glory. Why did God make the salvation process like above? For his glory. " a. You have not answered the entirety of my question. You merely dismissed it with an argument that I could use on you for just about anything! By the way, Where does it say in the Bible that God can do what He wants? God can"t sin. God can"t go against any of His attributes (I mentioned the main ones in my earlier arguments). I know you can give a better argument than this! All you did was throw my argument in the trash! Chicken! b. Proverbs: over and over God says He wants us to know and understand Him. What is the point if you make the argument every time that we cannot understand God? I am doing this debate to better understand God. If you are going to dismiss the fact that God actually wants us know Him and search out His ways, Then there is no reason for us to be debating. You completely dismissed my argument on the basis that God"s ways are unknowable. 2. "This is simply a straw man. " a. I do not see how my argument here is a straw man. Please explain. I am simply arguing that unconditional election is not logical. How is that attacking a point that you are not defending? You are defending unconditional election. Maybe I am not understanding you here. 3. "The process of salvation is not without free will. I don't think we have a say in our election, But he doesn't force us to believe either. I believe that God regenerates our soul (born again; John 3 says that a man cannot even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again, So, How can we make a choice about something we don't even know about? ) and with our new spirit, We can believe in God, Because we want to. We will want to because of our spirit" a. You clearly opened up a path for me to fully explain why I see your belief as humans being robots to God. Just hear me out: There is no free will if it is not free. Being "mind controlled" into not being able to resist God is not free will at all. You believe that God, At some point before time, Chose by His sovereign will who He would regenerate. Once a person is regenerated, They blindly follow and worship a Creator because He placed a "microchip" (if you will) in their brains to cause them to be irresistibly in love with Him. This is one of the points of Calvinism, Correct? Irresistible grace- Irresistible: too attractive and tempting to be resisted; too powerful or convincing to be resisted Grace: the free and unmerited favor of God, As manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings b. As for John 3: Your parenthetical conclusion (about a person not even knowing about the Kingdom of God prior to regeneration) is not logical. The Pharisees themselves knew/understood about the Kingdom of God. In John 3, "seeing" the Kingdom of God is equivalent to being a part of it, Not necessarily just knowing about it. 4. "Also, God's logic is different than ours. Yes, He is the creator of logic, But you have to realize that just because the motives of something don't make sense or the action doesn't make sense at all, Doesn't mean it isn't Biblical. Take the Trinity for example; we don't and can't comprehend it, Or the reasoning behind it. Does that mean it's not logical to God? Does it mean it's not logic? " a. I completely disagree with the fact that our logic is different than God"s. Yes, He is an infinite being and some things cannot be fathomed about Him, But that doesn"t mean we should not dig and search out answers as much as possible about who He is. Where does it state that God"s logic is different than ours in the Bible? Yours is a simple fallacy of throwing the baby out with the bath water. b. I think that the Trinity is plenty comprehensible. There are pictures of the Trinity all around us. Some include marriage, Unity and diversity among homologous structures, The church, Etc. We may not be able to fathom the Trinity in its entirety, Just like God, But I think we have a pretty good grasp of an understanding about it. 5. Point 1) "Why couldn't the Pharisees believe in Jesus, I thought everyone has a choice to believe? He talks about His sheep universally, So why can't the principles that he's talking about be applied universally? " a. Please forgive me. You have misunderstood what I am trying to convey here. The Pharisees had a choice, But they rejected Christ. They had unbelief and were already condemned (John 3:18). Those who are already condemned are not Jesus" sheep. b. Actually, I agree with you here (the second question you asked). One can use this scenario of Jesus speaking to unbelievers to apply to unbelievers universally. Those who do not believe on Christ have already been condemned. Those who are condemned are not Jesus" sheep. Point 1) "Again, I'm not going to question how God goes through with salvation (as revealed by Scripture). The word, "hear" isn't just auditory reception. It's also understanding and being able to receive what is being said. Remember when Jesus says, "He who has ears, Let him hear"? He isn't saying, "all who can auditorily receive what I'm saying, Hear. " No, He's saying, "he who can understand what I'm saying, Understand! " He tells the disciples that the unregenerate can't understand because they don't have a regenerated spirit to understand or receive what is being said (ears to hear). This is why it says he (in secret) tells the disciples what the parables mean. The same principle applies here. The "hearing" mentioned in your text (that Grace consistently provides) is auditory reception and understanding. And, Since God regenerates people before faith (which is what I believe) then being able to receive and understand what is being said by say, A preacher, Is not a work by us, Because it is the work of God, "For Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, That ye believe on him whom he hath sent. " [John 6:29]. Chicken. KJV. Where in the Bible is this "receiving a gift" language used? The Bible calls us to BELIEVE and turn away from our sins (Mark). It calls on us to confess our sins. " c. I have already told you that this is not a valid point, And where is this point you are making in Scripture? If it is the verse about not being able to fathom God, Then yes we cannot fathom Him but I guarantee you that He has asked for us to search Him out and know Him more times than He has claimed that He is unknowable and unfathomable. Again, I could use this argument on you for anything! d. I completely agree that when Christ says to hear he is not just referring to auditory reception but also understanding. Where does he tell the disciples that an unregenerate soul can"t hear? John 6: 29 is stating that salvation is God"s work not ours. You framed this verse to fit what you were trying to convey in your paragraph above. Faith comes by hearing! Not hearing by faith! e. Colossians 2:6-7 God talks about receiving salvation in this verse (one of many). He talks about salvation being a gift in tons of verses you have already heard and know about. 6. Point 2) "This violates God's omnipotence! He's an infinite being, He would be separate regardless. This is why I think if he really wanted to save everyone, He would! Also, This argument doesn't seem biblical either. If He wanted to, He could make it to where it doesn't violate his morals or character. I don't think that gives complete glory to God; I think it gives room for us to boast. Just because you were a better choice maker than others, Means you're ultimately saved and elected. I think the idea that God chose us for salvation not based on anything we did is more loving. It's unconditional. It's not partial. " a. Again, You are using the God can do whatever He wants argument. I have told you, God can"t go against His attributes and He will not He says in His Word that He is unchanging! He says that He cannot lie! Therefore, God will never change! God would never make it to where what He does, Does not violate His character. That would be manipulation and go against all the logic He has established in this world and given to us. God is not the author of confusion. Don"t just argue what I said above, Give me a valid answer to the argument I made before besides God can do anything He wants PLEASE! b. I do not understand what you mean when you said, "Just because you don't think conditional election ultimately boils down to that, Doesn't mean that it doesn't". I do not believe ANYTHING is done by a person to be saved except simply accepting God"s work in their hearts. I do not believe that accepting a gift is a work. 7. Point 3) Be specific about which passages or verses you want me to read around others please. 8. Point 4) "Let me remind you, Herod isn't God. His decisions are influenced by worldly things, And he was an unbeliever, Not God. I don't think it a good idea to compare what Herod did to what God did. " a. This is totally a straw man. You have not given an answer to my argument. I think what I did was perfectly fine. You compare a dark closet to salvation! I am by no means saying Herod is God. I am simply saying that kings are sovereign and have authority. Sometimes they lay aside their sovereignty for the sake of others. Read my argument again. 9. God's sovereignty and man's ability to choose are not in conflict. God allows man to make a choice. "Um. . . It literally says that God didn't choose based on their choice or anything that they had done! I don't get the point being made here, Please explain. " a. Ok, I meant this for salvation. In Romans 9, We are talking about God electing Christ"s lineage, So yes I agree this is not based on Esau or Jacob"s choice or what they have done. b. I am simply saying that God"s sovereignty over man and man having a choice are not in conflict referring to salvation. God was not talking about Esau and Jacob"s salvation in Romans. 10. My First Point) "Romans 10:8-10 is not the only verse that speaks to salvation; regeneration, Being born again, Election, The Holy Spirit, And other parts of salvation are not included there. How are people able to confess? Who is able to confess? How are they able to believe? Etc. Salvation is a guaranteed promise! Using definitions doesn't prove election to be conditional (even though you are talking about salvation). It says if, Yes. This is true. If we are regenerated, Then we will be able to confess and believe! I think that is the biblical answer (John 3) It's conditional on GOD regenerating us, Not us regenerating us! " a. I am not worried about every element of salvation being in this verse. It is stating that whoever believes will be saved. That is salvation in a nutshell. b. You use definitions all the time. Definitions are logical. If one does not study how a sentence is formulated and what is being conveyed by how it is formulated, One will not understand fully what is being said! c. NO! You literally added the word regenerated in the verse! You can"t add to the Bible! d. I believe in regeneration. Yes, God regenerates us. We cannot possible regenerate ourselves! We simply ask God to regenerate us and He does it out of love. 11. My Second Point) "Serving God is not the same as salvation! If I don't choose to serve God sometimes, Does that mean I'm not saved? "If God gave the Israelites a choice why wouldn't he give the Gentiles a choice" You are making a false equivalency. The Israelites were choosing to serve God or not. The Gentiles, (in your eyes) are choosing salvation. They are different choices, Rendering it a fallacious argument. " a. Serving God is the fruit of salvation. You will know them by their fruits! Christians are not going to serve God all the time because they are still bound by their earthly flesh, But repentance and regeneration occur in salvation, So there is definitely a change in a Christian"s life. Abraham served God because he had faith in God and it was counted unto him as righteousness! This applies to those who choose to serve God. The Israelites had a choice to serve God or idols. God is jealous. If they chose to serve God, They could never go back to serving idols or severe judgment would come upon them. These are not different choices! The whole mystery of the Gospel is reaching out to Gentiles! Once Gentiles are saved, There is evidence of this when they serve God. Have fun and learn something chicken! Not necessarily from me, But God.