The Central Principle of Christianity is IMMORAL

Hello Philosurfer, hopefully my comments weren't too revealing for you. So you have an idea of where I position myself in this mixed up world I hope, so now I have to justify myself of course. I appreciate your opening argument and related commentary and I will argue that the notion of vicarious redemption is completely valid if understood properly from a Biblical perspective. Hopefully! I hope you don't mind but I won't copy and paste your arguments in here as it gets a little confusing for me and takes up too much space. It's a pretty heavy topic so I want to give it a little room for manoeuvre and give some good responses if I can. I will, however, put some sort of reference to your arguments in my rebuttals. I think to start I should just clear up what is essentially mainstream Christian doctrine on the essence of God. As you possibly know, the Christian perspective on God is one of a triune nature. That is to say God the Father (supreme Creator), Jesus Christ the Son (God made man) and the Holy Spirit (the essence of God). Water, Ice and Steam if you prefer and it helps to make a mental picture of what that means. Also I do believe that God will only judge according to what is in a man's heart when the time comes, so I won't make any judgement on who is eligible or not for salvation. My only statement on this is that if a man does come to know God through study and reflection then he will accordingly adjust his lifestyle in order to become more acceptable to God. Sinning all you want, consciously knowing it's wrong and expecting redemption is not really knowing God. Sinning is part of human nature but God will give you the inspiration to move away from sin generally and help you lead a better life. If you flaunt the free gift that is given, then you no longer deserve that gift, just as Esau sold his birthright very cheaply to Jacob and paid the consequences. It is a gift, so if you love the gift giver, then you will want to show that you really did deserve it. A. In response to this, I don't think any true Christian believes they are throwing their sins onto someone. God, through Jesus Christ as a man, ultimately sacrificed himself for humanity. It is not human sacrifice, a man was put to death sure, but even Jesus stated 'No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to receive it again. This command I have received from My Father." (John 10:18). In essence it is ultimately altruism that we see, not human sacrifice or something more gory. Would you say a soldier that throws himself on a land mine to save 20 of his mates is immoral, No, he would be a hero worthy of praise indeed and quite rightly. I or most recognise that the human condition is in all respects open to all kinds of sin, small and great. I also recognise that God, through his sacrifice alone, can offer salvation or redemption to those who believe in Him and love Him accordingly, so that our sins can be forgiven at the time of judgement. B If you truly believe in Him and his sacrifice, you will want to stop sinning and change your life accordingly. Do we all still sin. YES, because we fail all the time and we accept that we can never live up to those ultimate standards. Do we sin because we know we will be forgiven, NO, as that is not knowing or loving God at all. Repenting to avoid punishment, and continually doing it knowing it is displeasing to God, is not really a good defense for anyone I'm afraid. Even self-righteous church goers who look down on others and go through the motions on a Sunday, could be accused of not really knowing God at judgement time. Sin continually attacks the soul and spirit that you move further away from God so that He may not even know you when the time comes. Yes a moral person with a conscience can feel guilt for their transgressions, which is why we ask for forgiveness from God. Immoral persons who feel no guilt cannot ask for forgiveness without committing to changing their lives accordingly and make a move in the right direction. Jesus forgives an adulteress of her sin, but requests that she go and sin no more. Repentance and forgiveness is a two way agreement. We have been given a gift, so you would not want to abuse that gift in essence. C As stated it's not human sacrifice. If anything it is an altruistic act, by an all-loving God who does not want to see humanity become completely corrupted by sin. We are His creation and knows very well the nature of man. If we do not turn and accept the gift then essentially we will be condemned to this short life only and our souls will be destroyed accordingly thereby forfeiting any chance of an everlasting life with Him. Heaven, you being in the presence of God, and hell being the absence of God. If you want to be with Him then you trust in Him, he won't force you to be with Him, that is your choice. D I disagree, the sacrifice was the ultimate act of love by a God who does not want to see man crumble and fall into a state of sin and evil continually. I always think it is funny when men judge things immoral without realising the true meaning or sacrifice of a perfect entity such as God. Throughout human history (6000 years) you see man corrupting this divine creation of His and He is calling all men back to Him. Love is not compulsory at all. If you can appreciate the very life and goodness that you have, then love will come naturally. I don't force myself to do it. If you don't want to love or respect your own very creation and the mind you have, then He won't force you to. Eternal can be misconstrued, the effect of the punishment is eternal and everlasting, but I don't think people will continually burn in hell for what is essentially a short life time of 70 to 80 years on earth. If you do not wish to know Him or love Him then obviously everlasting life is not on the table. Obviously there are mitigating circumstances for many people and as I said, only God will know what is in anyone's heart and mind. I don't believe the gift is in anyway immoral, a Creator sacrifices himself as a man, to save humanity from it's own self destruction. That is the true love of a true friend. Who would not want to humbly accept a gift such as that and give your love in return. I very much doubt that if Jesus had not made this sacrifice, we would even have the luxury to sit down and debate this topic as we are. Many of us would have been made human sacrifices to strange gods I'm sure. I truly believe it would have been all over a long time ago. Ok good luck for next round. I will bring in another couple of arguments also.