Total Depravity

First there are to many topics to touch on throughout this debate so I will try and hit the most pertinent. Also thanks for the response and I look forward to hearing more on the subject. You stated "The Bible teaches that faith is man's gift to God." This is un-biblical on many levels. Jesus declares "no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:65) In the same passage Jesus declares: " all that the Father gives to Me will come to Me." (John 6:37) In both verses the phrase "come to Me" simply means "believe in Me" and so taken together Jesus is stating that no one can believe in Him unless God grants it. Another one of God's gift to us is faith not the other way around. Faith is not the product of an unregenerated human nature. If a person becomes humble enough to submit to God it is because the Holy Spirit has given that person a new, humble nature ... not because some men are more humble than others. It was not by chance that one person believed the gospel and not the other, nor was it because one had some innate virtue that the other lacked. It is grace and grace ALONE that makes men to differ, not the exertion of men's wills. The problem with us "giving" faith as a gift to God is that is reverses the role and becomes about us and not about God. In the end when we stand before a holy and completely righteous God and He asks why we should be allowed to enter heaven, there is one answer: Jesus. Then when he asks and why did YOU choose Jesus and not your parents ( for the sake of argument, I do not know the hearts of your parents) are you going to say it was because I'm smarter, more humble, I had more faith than them, etc.... Anything more than completely falling prostrate and through pain and tears, saying, "By YOUR grace Alone have I been chosen", would be the pinnacle of pride and arrogance. ***Response to philosophical argument*** Is God unjust to choose some people for salvation and not others? God is completely just and fair to send us all to hell. We have all chosen to go our own way and therefore we have all chosen hell. God has taken ill-deserving not just undeserving people and given them grace to believe and grace for salvation. All of Romans 9 repeats this. And Paul is not talking about countries or nations but individual people. Romans 3:9-10 and 18. "I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: None is righteous, no not one; no one seeks for God....There is no fear of God before their eyes." Since no one is righteous (yes even Noah, more on that later) we all deserve hell. This is what makes Jesus so good. God is love as you have said and does desire all to repent but in His infinite Sovereignty has chosen "some" overriding their "will" to continually sin and choose hell. If anyone should be complaining it is the Christian who should complain. God overrode our "free will" choice of hell and grabbed us to join Him eternally in Heaven. Let me give an example: A family lived off a busy street in which after 20 feet of property followed a sidewalk and then four lanes of nearly constant traffic. One day when the front door was opened the young daughter started running toward the street. The father quickly grabbed her and explained that it was dangerous and was never to run away from them again. She didn't fully understand and thought it was fun that her daddy would chase her. Another day later they were packing her younger brother into the car when she turned and bolted towards the busy street. She was exercising her free will and made her own decision for her life. In panic, the father cried out to her, "Come back!" "Stop!", essentially preaching repentance to her, pleading for her to turn around and return to her daddy. She foolishly did not respond and had a smile on her face and a look in her eye thinking that she was playing a game and not seeing the death awaiting her. The father saw a large truck coming down the road and since there was a car parked in front of their house it could not see the little girl running towards the street. He closed in on her just as she stepped into the lane of the oncoming truck. She was a few steps into the street when he grabbed her by the back of her vest and literally pulled her out of the way of the truck. With one arm, he reached out and overrode the free-will decision of his daughter and saved her. He did this because his love for her is more important than her free will. Tragically I have heard a well known Christian explain that the reformed view of God is as being a rapist rather than a lover because God overrides the free will of some people. This is deeply saddening because rapists are not the only people who impose their will on others; sometimes so do loving fathers who want their kids to live. They reach out their hand to ensure they are saved from death. ***Response to Biblical arguments and notes of my own*** Romans 10:17---- Before the foundation of the world God "chose" or "elected" some--- when the word is heard, the massive move of the Holy Spirit gives us faith. God works first. Isaiah1:18----This IS God's grace at work which causes us to believe. He did the work first not us. Psalm 119:30, 173 ---- This is coming from an adulteress murderer. Who experienced God's grace firsthand knowing that he was not worthy of God. David knew his depravity and delighted that God rescued him. Ecclesiastes 9:3 ----- I would go on to say that everything is meaningless apart from Jesus. As he said what good is it that a man gains the whole world yet loses his soul? --- meaningless 2 Timothy 1:12 ---- Paul wrote the most on the election of God. He is the greatest case of it ever. He didn't choose to follow God. He was forced into it by the grace of God. Jesus literally had to come down from his thrown to punch Paul in the face and say, "Your going to follow ME now". This would be the equivalent of Osama Bin Laden showing up at your house church and saying, "I've been saved, lets all huddle and pray now". You would pray with one eye open. You said, "These verses illustrate how man is both expected and does, in fact, choose the way of righteousness."---- Once again this is turning it around to be about us and not about God. Again, "None is righteous, no not one; no one seeks for God....There is no fear of God before their eyes." ***Noah*** God is completely just to say, "No one is righteous, all deserve condemnation, I will send a flood and be done with human beings, I am sick of the rebellion and their folly." But instead He begins with one man...Noah. Noah at this point is not a great man, and he still is going to blow it after God loves, chooses, elects him. See when we look at Genesis 6:8 we see that Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. This word favor is the Hebrew word for grace. This was unmerited ill-deserving grace. This is God doing good to those who are evil, like you and I. See what happens is we read the story and go, "What was so special about Noah?".....Nothing!!! Noah is not the special one, God is. Noah is not the good one, God is. Noah is just as bad as everyone else on the earth at that time, and God looks down on Noah and decides to love him, be good to him, pursuit him, forgive him, change him, and bless him. God gifted him righteousness as He has us through Jesus. God made him "blameless" by forgiving his sin as He does for us through Jesus. This doesn't mean that he is perfect, he later goes on by getting drunk and passing out naked in his tent. Something like what the people do in Newberg. That is how our God works. It is absolutely amazing. This is why we shouldn't be smug like religious people and say, "Oh, God picked me not you. I have merit and you apparently don't." Noah shows us that there is hope for even the worst of us because God had to destroy the earth because it was so bad.