Topic To Be Chosen During Debate

"BANG! YOU'RE DEAD!" *Matrix-style dodge* "If this pressure were such a driving force in getting them to act, then social anxiety that concerns courtship should not even exist" This is not the correct conclusion. Fear of rejection will always be present and that shyness/social anxiety will always be there. Rebalancing the burden of asking someone out between males and females does not reduce the shyness of the male in any way, shape, or form, and my opponent has made no case supporting that notion. Thus, the correct way of seeing it would be that biological urges and fear of rejection are forces in opposite directions, leading to a standstill. However, the notion that nothing will come without action will apply the needed pressure to move it in the direction of bypassing that social stress. In other words, shy guys will be just as shy regardless. They are not wary to act because the burden is on them. They are wary to act because the burden exists at all. Whether the burden is 100% or 50%, a guy who thinks about asking a girl out will be just as nervous. Having the pressure be closer to 100% will just force his hand if he wants anything to progress. Thus, my opponent's notion that shifting the balance leads to an uninhibited acting on biological urge is simply incorrect. =====RE: SCENARIO A: Guy likes Girl. Guy is too shy, Girl doesn't know but doesn't return the feelings. "CON's system encourages denial of the truth...This system leads individuals to arrogance" Strawman fallacy. I never made the contention that the guy would immediately think that it is the ONLY reason. I stated that the importance is in the fact that the possibility exists. Much like how a 10% chance of survival vs. a 0% chance of survival would each have an extraordinarily different impact on a cancer patient's morale. The proper mindset for the guy would be "Well, I didn't act, so I can't really expect anything. Until I get the urge, I won't know how this will go". "On the other hand, my system...the guy works from the angle of "What can I do to get this girl to like me" and not merely "Hmm, well if I simply work up the courage to ask her out, everything will be okay."" As I said above, this is a misinterpretation of my argument. If it were true that men would have such an arrogant mindsst in the old system, my opponent would be correct. However, this is not the case, as someone with such a prideful mindset would probably not have any problems asking a girl out in the first place. Thus, my opponent's contention that men in his system would be more oriented towards bettering themselves is unfounded. ====RE: SCENARIO B: Guy likes Girl. Girl also likes Guy. Guy and Girl are both shy. "Besides my argument that no pressure leads to no shyness" I have responded and disagreed with this notion, so we will skip that and go to my opponent's backup. "...could become good friends. After taking a while to know one another long enough, one would eventually feel comfortable enough to ask the other out..." My opponent does not provide enough reasoning to show that this is an improvement over the current system. If the two become so close that they overcome their shyness and are willing to comitt, the shifting would have no impact. Overcoming personal shyness is much harder than bypassing the social norm of asking someone out, be the person a girl or guy. In addition, long friendships of this sort often end up negatively. Feelings die out over time, a woman has a particular window that closes after a period of inactivity. Furthermore, she shifts candidates along one of two ladders http://ladderwiki.com... This makes relationships developing out of long term friendships between 2 shy people very rare, rare enough such that the population that will benefit from the shift (if any) is negligible compared to those it would harm. ===Scenario C: Guy likes Girl. Girl also likes Guy. Guy is shy, but Girl is not. "I acknowledge that it is not unheard of...emasculating him through taking the role which is generally assigned to the man." I would argue that in this scenario, the guy would never mind, as he already likes the girl and is too shy to make a move himself. Being asked out by the girl would be a very welcome relief. Yes, given our current social code, some men may feel emasculated or turned off, but not the particularly shy ones. These would be the men who are used to the notion of asking girls out, which have no bearing on this debate. ===RE: C1: The girl will need time to decide/wait: 1) My focus is not on settling for a long term relationship, rather, for the shy guy to accomplish his goal, which is to ask out the girl he likes. 2) When I say "greater quality", I mean in the eyes of the girl. She could wait for guy-A until a better guy-B comes and asks her out, rejecting the ones worse than guy-A along the way. To reiterate my point, no girl is static unless she likes one guy obscenely, and in that case, she would ask him out regardless. And I have said that it would be an improvement for a very small subset of women, there are exceptions for every case, but I would argue that so many more prefer to be chased rather than to be chased. It isn't for fear of rejection, but because it raises their own sense of value to be wanted and show indifference in return. ===RE: C2: The girl likes the shy guy so much, she asks him out at once. In that case, this would shift the balance with your other argument. Having a girl be more prolific in asking guys out would hurt shy guys more, since the active ones would rush to the girl even faster in order to beat out competition. ===RE: Flirting: This is essentially a rote "Will you go out with me?" "Okay" Vanilla type response which has become kind of archaic. I agree that those who want that sort of direct, uninteresting route will benefit, but those are usually the people excluded from or at at least not very keen on the dating process. The mystery and uncertainty are appealing to those who are secure in themselves and not foreign to casual dating, the thrill of the chase. In fact, the flirting is one of the most rapidly escalating parts of the courtship process in terms of building attraction. Getting rid of that would be detrimental. CONCLUSION: My opponent's main arguments: 1. His system will be better for shy men 2. His system will be better for women For his first contention, my opponent essentially argues that relieving the burden relieves the stress. However, he never correlates this exactly. The stress and insecurity come from the person himself, and from his own fear of rejection. This fear will not go away if the burden shifts. It can only affect him less since he will be more inactive. My opponent's system lulls shy men into more complacency. Our current system forces shy men to act. For his second contention, my opponent assumes that there is a big niche to fill. First of all, it is quite common nowadays for girls to ask guys out, even though the reverse is the norm. Second, I would say there are far more girls who enjoy being chased rather than doing the actual chasing. This is simply a matter of ego, it feels better to be wanted than to want. Changing the system would only have it revert back the way it is. My opponent believes that something is wrong with the system and that it needs to be corrected for equity. Although I have given him the point about Biology and thus, will not use it against him, I argue that our current system exists the way it is for a reason: it is currently the best suited one. The changes that my opponent proposes, if they are beneficial at all, would only be beneficial to a subgroup. Those who do not have the dating restrictions my opponent listed would be put at discomfort, making it generally more harmful than helpful. VOTE KLEPTIN :D!