Big Oil companies actually receive tax subsidies

I am just not getting through to you, am I? I think what we have here is a debate based on a faulty foundation. You said: People receive tax return checks all the time, often as a result of tax breaks. A tax break must be a transfer of money because the result is tangible value. That is not the kind of tax breaks we are talking about. What you refer to is a tax refund. A tax break is not being required to pay what a government SAYS you should pay. There is a monster difference. I said "You are not one penny richer because of a tax break. You are simply not a penny poorer." If that were true, why would anybody spend grueling hours filling out tax forms to qualify for tax breaks? Why would anybody pay an accountant? Tax breaks have value. ?? By filling out forms to get tax breaks, you are avoiding getting poorer. You are not getting a check. Tax is not money is that is taken from us. Wow! Did you really say that or was that a series of typos all lined up? I cannot even begin to imagine that anyone could actually believe that. Tax is not taken from us? Why don't you try this experiment: Call the IRS and say that you do not believe they will take your money. Tell them from now on that you are going to keep every penny you earn because you don't believe in this idea that taxes are taken from us. If you are employed, you also tell them that you will take that the necessary steps are taken to stop the taxes coming from your paycheck. Then wait and see what they say. Please make that call and tell us what they said. Tax is money owed in exchange for government service. No, some taxes are owed in exchange for government service. Income taxes, which are personal property, are taken regardless of whether one uses any government service. If I pay a gasoline tax and license plate fees in exchange for getting to use the roads, that is all good and fine. I have a choice to pay those based on whether or not I use that but an income tax is totally different. It is nothing more than confiscation. What government does with that confiscated money is not important. It does not matter if they use it greatly or waste it totally. The issue is how they obtained it. Most people cannot understand that. When you equate tax subsidies with tax breaks, you said they are the same because the oil companies "owe" the money. Let's talk about the word "owe." When government says oil companies "owe" x amount of dollars, where do they arrive at this figure? They simply decide it. The oil companies did not get together and say "we are the people and we should decide what we want to pay." That is not how it works and I am sure you agree. The government simply pulls numbers out of the air and says "you owe us...but out of the goodness of our hearts, we are going to give you a "tax break" so you can start now with the "thank yours." I said "Taxpayers do not give tax breaks to oil companies" You said: Of course we do. We are a government of the people, by the people, for the people. This is the foundation misunderstanding I spoke of earlier. If we had a government of, by and for the people, the oil companies represent the people too, right? Do governments have the right to do something that we the people do not have when it comes to things that I am about to explain? Let's say you and a handful of other people decide to start your own country on your own island. You get all moved in and you pass laws. One of them is a law against stealing. Everyone agrees and so it becomes the law of the land. No people on the island can steal without penalty. One day you have a vote and everybody but one person wants to build a nice park. The one dissenter (Bob) has no interest in the park. You cannot legally just take his money so you and the others decide to get together and form a governing body. What you all say goes and that is the end of it. You answer to no one. You go to Bob and tell him he is being taxed at X amount for the park. Bob starts to squawk about it because he has not interest in the park even after he is being told it is for the "common good." After Bob refuses to pay, you have no choice. You start proceedings to take Bob's possessions in order for him to pay. Here is the kicker: You are saying that taxes are not taken but you are not in Bob's shoes. You are suggesting that Bob "owes" the money to the building of the park as if he had some kind of debt. This is not an example of a government run of, by and for the people. This is an example of legal plunder. In a free society run by the people, the people have equal rights. The majority, who want a park, do not rule. A famous quote goes like this: A democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what is for dinner. This is a democracy that you seem to agree with. In a republic, the lamb is afforded the same rights to life, liberty and property that the wolves have. If an individual on the island has no rights to take property from someone, it does not suddenly become moral and legal to gather up a group and do what he cannot legally do individually. Is it really so unrealistic that a government for the people should pause to consider why we are not sharing in the success of those corporations for which we build infrastructure, defend property, and extensively subsidize? Another foundational error that you have is that taxpayers ultimately fund oil companies with the subsidies. They are already paying billions and you want to take credit for "subsidizing" them? This is just strange. Your thinking is that if oil companies get tax breaks, we the people are making up the difference. That is fundamentally incorrect to the core. That is actually how taxes are supposed to be collected - by apportionment. In studying tax history, you will learn that governments are supposed to figure out what they need to raise in order to function but that is not what has been going on for many years. Our government taxes us solely on percentages. Without looking it up, let's say their budget is 5 trillion per year. You make 100 trillion and you are in a 50% tax bracket. You "owe" 50 trillion dollars right? But the government only needs 5 trillion so are they going to tell you that you do not need to pay the other 45 trillion because they have enough? No, they will not do that. They will take all 50 trillion and find ways to spend it. I see people all the time on Internet blogs talk about xyz corporation getting some tax break that we the people have to make up for. Just fundamentally wrong. To sum up, no oil company receives money from taxpayers. There is no evidence in this universe that suggests otherwise. They are allowed tax breaks just as every man, woman, child, dog and cat are allowed to keep some or all of what they have.