Enter The Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) is a better album than Wu-Tang Forever

Thanks for the prompt and well written response from my learned and revered brethren. When I said "delinquent associate" I was merely referring to the many delinquent escapades that our mutual association has entailed. Of all the points I made, perhaps the two most important ones are obvious by their absence from Lukas's response. 1) Enter simply works better as an album. As a complete listening experience from start to finish, Enter picks you up, grips you, shakes you and throws you down on the floor feeling stunned. Forever is just far too long, there is way too much to absorb and by the time fatigue has set in, long before the needle hits the groove of disc H, it really does feel like it goes on 'forever'. 2) Enter just has far better tunes on it. There isn't anything on Forever as good as the tunes I already listed from Enter. My opponent has not responded to this challenge. I will expand on this point later when I examine the albums tune by tune. _________ As far as lyrics go Luke may have a point. There are moments of lyrical mastery on Forever that arguably exceed anything on Enter, the dope Inspektah Deck verse is a great example. There certainly are a few moments on Enter that come close lyrically like Meth on Shame, Gza on Clan In Da Front, Deck and Ghost on 7th Chamber and the Masta Killa verse I posted before but I'll concede that that the ten bars from Deck on Triumph murks them all. However I would respond by saying that overall Enter is far more consistent with lyrical quality than Forever which has a fair few wack moments and way too much of 5th Beatle Cappadonna for my liking. Furthermore, just because some of the lyrics are more expertly constructed with more internal rhymes and a wider display of vocabulary, doesn't necessarily improve the quality to the average listener. Not everyone likes MF Doom/Kool Keith style intricate rhymes. I think it would be fair to say that the lyrics on Enter are more visceral and hit harder (rumour has it that this has a lot to do with certain MCs being coked up to the eyeballs but who's to know?) As for the U-God verse I really don't think it's that fresh and I totally don't get the whole "stream of consciousness" thing that both Lukas and Wikipedia say was so revolutionary on this album. As far as I can see almost all rap lyrics are and have always been written in a stream of consciousness style, it being kind of the point to say what is on your mind. As a lyricist I would also say it is often far easier to construct rhymes in this style. If you are just letting the ideas flow freely on to one another then you can concentrate on the sounds of the words, the rhyming patterns and the big punchlines and metaphors. It is a lot harder to write an engaging and moving narrative and tell a story people want to hear while also making it work well as a rhyme. Deck's verse on C.R.E.A.M. (often wrongly attributed to Ghostface) and Rza's verse on Tearz would be excellent examples of this on Enter. ________________ Lukas attempts to discredit the sources I provided of various opinion charts. He claims the inclusion of an Eminem album (not EP) on one of them invalidates them all. The fact is I purposely presented a wide range of sources from the reasonably credible The Source magazine to the obviously un-credible Yahoo answers. My points remain that every single such list I could find, whether compiled by an idiot or an expert all agree that Enter is superior to Forever and the mass weight of opinion is far too heavy to shrug off. _______________ Lukas acknowledges the impact that Enter had but tries to suggest Forever had an even greater impact on the industry which is palpably false. Whereas Enter effectively closed the chapter on the West Coast dominated G-Funk scene, Forever did nothing to stem the tide of r&b/pop/hip hop crossovers which still continues to this day. Forever even includes a few r&bish sung moments (Impossible etc) of it's own, while the only singing on Enter is samples of 60s stuff. On the subject of solo albums, I would also say that every single solo Wu album between Enter and Forever (that's Tical, Return to the 36 Chambers - the Dirty Version, Only Built For Cuban Lynx, Liquid Swords and Ironman) is better than Forever but not as good as Enter. ________________ Okay, now to address the point about fillers on Forever as well as the fact that the tunes on Enter are just better, what I'm going to do is run through all the tunes and rate them out of ten with a brief (due to character limits) description. ENTER 1. BRING DA RUCKUS - 9 Incredible impact for the first tune with iconic kung fu sample, lyrical fire from Rae, Ghost, Deck and Gza with shout chorus from the Rza. Sets the tone for the musical style and raw energy of the album. 2. SHAME ON A N*GGA - 9 And the world witnesses the insanity that is an unleashed O.D.B. for the first time. Meth also smashes it on this but it's all about the beat really, punchy soul horns and nagging Thelonius Monk piano blend superbly. 3. CLAN IN DA FRONT - 8 Pretty much a solo Gza track apart from Rza's intro, again the beat makes this one but the vocal is nice too. 4. WU-TANG: 7TH CHAMBER - 7 When you first hear this you think it's awesome, then you hear the remix and you're whole idea of awesomeness is forced to make an adjustment. 5. CAN IT BE ALL SO SIMPLE - 8 As well as stripped down drums, weird little melodies and kung fu samples what really helped establish Rza's rep as a beat crafter from this album was his use of vocal samples like the Gladys Knight throwaway line that becomes the hook on this. Big head nod tune. This also showcases the winning combination of Rae and Ghost which would be unleashed on Cuban Lynx. 6. PROTECT YOUR NECK - 10 This is just an absolute monster, 8 MCs absolutely smashing a track to bits, well 7 (Sorry U-God the 4 bar killer). No but really this is f--kin hip hop right here. - INTERMISSION Yeah even the skits kill on this, this interview with a stoned Meth is better listening than the whole of side H of Forever. 7. DA MYSTERY OF CHESSBOXIN' - 10 Absolutely iconic tune that made chess cool for thugs again. Co-produced by Old Dirty Bastard this is one of the best beats on the album with a weird haunting zither melody that really stays with you. All the MCs kill it on this and it has a great example of the Mr. Meth chorus but it's also notable for Masta Killa's only performance on the album on a rare day out from jail. He shows why he's the master. You know what, I'm gonna have to describe these a lot less. 8. WU-TANG CLAN AIN'T NUTHIN TO F' WIT - 9 Massive beat, fire from Meth and Rza. 9. C.R.E.A.M - 9 One of the most played accapellas ever and awesome beat with Al Greene moans. 10. METHOD MAN -8 The comedy stylings of Mr Meth. Quality bounce. 11. TEARZ -9 Wendy Rane lends the vocals to this emotional masterpiece. Crazy organ. 12. 7TH CHAMBER PART II - 10 Just ridiculous. Monster bass, 7 incredible verses. 106/12 = avg 8.8. ________ Okay, you know what, there is no way I can fit in all of my analysis of Forever without surgically butchering my arguments but there are no 10s, only a couple of 9s, mostly 7s and 8s and a few totally pointless bits of ranting like the Wu-Revolution track with the seemingly senile Poppa Wu and Rza's "Intro" on side E that if I included them would drag the average rating down to 5 or 6 as an average of the whole album. To be fair to Forever there are clearly a lot of good tunes on it but there is also wackness and one small piece of wackness can destroy the listening experience. The 4th Disciple produced tunes (except maybe for Cash Still Rules/Scary Hours) could have been left off with no detriment to the album as a whole, as could most of side H. I feel like I was just getting going but I'll have to stop there.