It is a good and holy act for Christians to honor Mary and ask her intercession #2

Once again, I thank DATCMOTO for his arguments and will now proceed to refute them. Since this is round 4, I urge the voters to ignore any completely new arguments brought up by either side, and only to accept new analysis on previously existing arguments. Before I begin I would like to make a note that the voters should keep in mind concerning my opponent’s last round. Nowhere in this debate was it agreed that every single argument needs Scripture to support it. Rather, debating itself is based on using logic to connect a variety of points in original ways. Thus, just because a point does not have a Bible verse directly following it does not mean that it should be thrown out. Besides, that would be a pointless waste of space and energy. My opponent began with arguments against Catholic tradition which have no bearing on this debate. While I believe that the bible verses mentioned by my opponent do not apply to Catholic tradition which was founded by God through Christ and the apostles, I will not spend time refuting this statement since it deviates from the question at hand. Honoring Mary Please keep in mind that I need one of these first two contentions to prove that we should ‘honor’ Mary, not that we should ‘pray to her’. That topic is under “Mary’s Intercession”. Contention 1: Example of Scripture P1- Example of Christ All Christians agree that we should follow Christ’s example. My opponent’s argument is more fit P3. P2- Example of Biblical characters Once again, most Christians would accept that we should follow the example of holy Biblical characters. My opponent’s argument would fall under P4. P3- Christ honored Mary “He honoured her; He NEVER prayed to her.” My opponent has proved my point for me. He agrees that Christ ‘honored’ Mary which is all that this contention is meant to prove. P4- Others honor Mary Ditto to last argument. C1- we should honor Mary Since my opponent has agreed to all of my premises, this conclusion necessarily follows. This means I have fulfilled the part of my burden of proof related to ‘honoring Mary’. “It is exactly BY following the examples of Christ, Gabriel and Elizabeth that we should NEVER come to the conclusion to pray to Mary, thus exulting her beyond her scriptural status and worshipping her.” Of course these people would not have prayed to Mary since they could talk to her (please note that praying to Mary is a very different type of prayer than that which we offer to). Contention 2: Scriptural Prophesy (please note that Contention 1 is enough to prove my point and that this contention is really extra and not necessary unless Contention 1 fails) P1- Mary said ‘all generations will call me blessed’. Mary said this in response to Elizabeth’s greeting ‘blessed are you among women’. This means that she is blessed in a way that is special. P2- following Scripture “There is no command in scripture to pray to Mary.” Once again we are only seeing here that we should ‘honor’ Mary which is what this passage is certainly saying. C1- We should call Mary ‘blessed’ "Calling Mary blessed honours God, NOT Mary."I agree that this honors God since it was an act of God to make her Christ’s mother, but it also honors Mary since she was the one whose ‘yes’ to Gabriel allowed God to make her His mother. Any honor we give to any person (whether it be a parent, glorious war general, or capable political leader) is due to some God given talent. Thus honoring these people also honors God, but it is honor none the less. Mary’s Intercession Contention 1: prayer is good P1- others prayers “Asking others to pray for us and praying to someone in heaven are completely different acts with no connection in scripture what so ever.” My opponent has agreed then that it is a good thing for us to ask people on earth for prayers. What he contests is that the people in heaven are different somehow. What he fails to show, however, is why. Mark 12:26-27 “‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[d]? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Those in heaven are just as alive as those on earth. P2- holiness = better prayers My opponent agreed to this. P3- Mary was holy “'Was' being the operative word.” As shown earlier, God is a God of the living and not of the dead. Mary is just as alive to him as you and I. Otherwise, my opponent has agreed that Mary was holy. C1- Mary’s prayers are good My opponent has agreed that the prayers of holy people (like Mary who he agreed was holy) are helpful. Since God has no reason to accept the prayers of sinners on earth but then refuse the prayers of a saint in heaven, it must be beneficial for us to ask Mary to pray for us (i.e. ask her intercession). Contention 2: Christ listens to Mary (Once again please note that I only need to prove one of these two contentions) P1- John 2 “Jesus' mother is mentioned first because she was the invited guest at the wedding and Jesus and His disciples had 'also' been invited meaning they were Mary's guests.” Saying that Jesus and his disciples were ‘also’ invited in no way means that they were invited by Mary. Additionally, in the ancient world women were never given authority over men, so it would be assumed that Mary had no authority over Christ and his friends unless the Scripture specifically said so. "Woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied. "My hour has not yet come." A translation closer to the Greek is “And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.” (http://forums.catholic.com......) Christ is not showing resentment for Mary overstepping her authority, but rather he is pausing to show that he only does miracles for a purpose rather than desiring to show off at every chance he gets. He obviously hadn’t intended to perform the miracle at first, but we see that at Mary’s asking he readily complies. C1- Christ listens to Mary This conclusion stands if the first premise stands. C2- Mary’s prayers can help This is not too excessive of a leap from the previous conclusion. If Christ listens to Mary and Mary asks him to help us, then we conclude that Christ will help us. If Mary is holy, then she is also charitable. If we ask her to pray for us when in need (just as the couple at the wedding feast were in need), then her prayers to God on our behalf will indeed be beneficial to us. Summary I have shown almost beyond a doubt that we should honor Mary since my opponent’s arguments there never really matched up with what I was saying. I believe I have shown that we should ask Mary’s intercession because all Christians agree that the prayers of a holy person will help us and because Christ himself listened to Mary’s requests while on earth. Combined with last round where I refuted my opponent’s arguments concerning whether or not Catholics worship Mary, I believe that I have fully met my burden of proof set up in the first two rounds. Thus, I urge the voters to lean towards Pro at this point in the debate. I look forward to DATCMOTO’s round 4 arguments.