A creator of the universe does exist.

:/ Ok this is getting annoying. First of all, putting people's arguments into quotes when refuting them is how we do things here at debate.org. Second of all, as far as your arguments go, let me put it loud and clear: YOU HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF. YOU HAVE TO PROVE WITH EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE THAT A CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE EXISTS. I can't make it any clearer than that. "Also, I could argue that your belief is "ad populum" because the education system teaches these theories to the masses. I'm actually anti establishment and you are the one conforming to popular belief." Uhh, no.... Science is based off of proof my friend. As far as your whole argument, it is based off of negative proof. It's an argument from lack of imagination, simply stating that you cannot imagine how the universe came into being, therefore it must have a creator. You have no proof of this, yet you keep insisting that it's true. "ME - We created the "hard coded logic" and that means we created the computer. However, one could argue that someone or something first gave us this logic to create a computer in the first place. This extends my argument that logic can only derive from logic. Logic cannot come from material and if you trace this theory as far back as possible, you have to believe in a creator. Logic cannot simply come into existence without some other logical force acting upon it" Logic isn't something that "exists", rather it is a tool created by us intelligent beings to help us make sense of things. How about this: every time you say "logic" replace it with "math" i.e. : "ME - We created the "hard coded math" and that means we created the computer. However, one could argue that someone or something first gave us this math to create a computer in the first place. This extends my argument that math can only derive from math. Math cannot come from material and if you trace this theory as far back as possible, you have to believe in a creator. Math cannot simply come into existence without some other mathematical force acting upon it" You see, just like math, logic is but a tool DEVELOPED by intelligent beings to help them understand their environment. Just like math, or science, or literature, logic is not a physical thing that exists in our environment, rather something that intellectual beings developed to UNDERSTAND their environment. "- The first sentece for Big Bang under Wikipedia states "The Big Bang is a cosmological model of the initial conditions and subsequent development of the universe. " How is this not talking of the creation of the world?" Ok.... The UNIVERSE and the WORLD are two different things. The creation of the WORLD does not equate to the creation of the UNIVERSE.... (-.-) "Of course DNA is made of matter. So is all the information you store on a computer. It is all saved on a hard drive. But this is not the important stuff. The important stuff is what the information means." EXACTLY. You admitted it yourself. Without an intelligent being to perceive "logic", "logic" doesn't exist. "The logic is so perfect in DNA, that only a universal creator could bring it into existence." Why do you say that? You can't imagine otherwise? "ME - If you believe in primordial soup, then you have more faith in Atheism than I do in my religion. It seems as though your coming up with any excuse to deny the existence of a God." O.o I don't "believe" in the primordial soup like it's some kind of deity and have "faith" in Atheism. How can you have "faith" in the very lack of faith? If atheism is a faith, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. Also you are incorrect as far as saying atheism is but a mere excuse to deny god. Although I'm not an atheist, I know that the burden of proof is on the theist, and atheists are as they are because of mere lack of proof. The burden of proof is on the believer. Let me give you an example: My faith is in the invisible, inaudible, tooth fairy who always leaves a dollar under my bed when I lose a tooth. You don't believe in Her? Your lack of belief is just an excuse to deny Her! You lack evidence to disprove Her existence? Aha! I win my default! Now is it your responsibility to DISPROVE the existence of the tooth fairy? If I fail to disprove it, does that mean it exists? No, the burden of proof is on me because I claimed for such a thing to exist. Also, this also backs up my argument about arguments from lack of imagination. I lack the imagination to understand how 5$ appears under my pillow every time I lose a tooth.... So there MUST be a tooth fairy. "ME - Believing logic came before matter has everything to do with a creator of the universe. That's what i've been arguing the whole time. That a supreme creator had to be logical in order to create such a perfect universe. I'm a software developer and we use "logic" in place of code or a certain way of thinking. Defintion: http://www.merriam-webster.com....... As you can see, there are many different interpretations fo the word. Why do liberals always try to argue what words mean instead of actually debating?" Ok, "perfect" is but a perspective, more like the way we've come to think of the universe. Just because we think the universe is perfect doesn't mean it requires a creator. "ME - Of course I believe life's creator = universe's creator. As I said before, logic came before matter. If it we're the case that they we're different, I could not say that. Your implying by believing the two are different that matter just came into being all of a sudden, and somehow a creator of life was created out of this matter. It is not feasible to believe that. I believe that God was in existence first, and through his power (or logic) he created the universe. I refuted the argument of the computers earlier in this round." We'll like I said before, that's an argument from lack of imagination. As far as logic becoming before matter..... that's like saying math or literature came before matter..... It's but a tool used by intelligent beings to understand their environment. I can bump heads with this guy all day, but he just won't budge. I think he's confusing "belief" with "fact." He's arguing a faith, but as I said before, it's based off of negative proof. I challenge you to answer these questions: 1) Who created this creator? 2) If logic always came before logic, what logic was there that created this creator? 3) Does the invisible, inaudible, tooth fairy exist? Why or why not? 4) If we created computers, why didn't we create the universe? (-.-)