Assuming the Bible is a Book of Rules, it Teaches Predestination

You begin by claiming that I presented no argument in my previous post. On the contrary, I have, though you may have failed to recognize it. My argument, in a nutshell, was this: We must have been predestined, because we are unable to ever accept a good gift in our fallen state. My evidence was this: Genesis 6:5--- "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Jeremiah 13:23--- "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil." Thus, we are so evil in our fallen state that we only ever dwell on evil thing. It is a good thing to accept the "free gift" of salvation, therefore it would be impossible for men to accept were it up to him. Rom. 8:7--- "Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so," That was my argument, so no, I did not watse my post. It still awaits refutation. You asked for quotes for the mouth of Jesus Himself, and though I am not obligated to give them as my only souce of evidence, I will give them, simply because it packs an even greater punch. You claim that there is no evidence out of the mouth of Jesus for predestination, but you are quite mistaken. John 15:16--- "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." We did not choose Him, but He chose us to bear fruit. You, I would imagine, would claim that Jesus is refering only to the apostles, and that He is referning to choosing then for apostleship, and not salvation. While this is a tempting position to take, cconsider the following verses... Eph. 1:4-6--- "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." There is no talking around the fact that He chose us IN HIM before the ceration of the world. For this reason we can reasonbly believe that Crist was in fact refering to salvation, becuase He elsewhere states that He chooses men before the foundations of the world to be holy in His sight. He did not foreknow, and predestined accordingly, because... Titus 3:5-7--- "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness [which He would have foreknown], but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." 2 Tim. 1:9--- "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity," ...but He chose us only according to what pleased (and pleases) Him. Once again, I would like to point out that we would be unable too accept this gift were it up to us to accept, for... 1Cor2:14--- "...the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." So who then can be saved? if all men are unable to accept Christ, as Rom. 3:10-12 states, how then are we saved? Acts 13:48--- "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." 2 Thes. 2:13--- "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." As many as have been appointed for salvation shall believe, and that is that. As Jesus Himself says: John 6:44--- "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." Now I move on to refitation and defense. You say that God is love, and refute all of my arguments by inventing a defenition for the word "hate." I would like to know where you get your defenition, because the defenition I get of the greek word used in this context is much different. The greek word used, and you can check me on this if you will, is "miseo," or "mee-SEH-oh," and the defenition is hate, despise, or disregard. The usage of the word in context with the malachi verse I quoted is aorist. Contrary to what you would like to think, this word does not indicate "preference," but real and burning hatred. God despised and disregarded Esau. Therefore my argument that God is not entirely a being of love, but also a very solid and just being, unwilling to look over sin still stands and awaits refutation. God is no pushover. I am also a bit confused as to where you are coming up with these several forms of hate. There is one kind of hate, just as there is one kind of love. True, undying, Christ-like love, and true, undying, burning hatred for sin. We are in no position to hate people, because we did not create them. God on the other hand... Yet you are right in saying that God is love, because He is most definately love towards His people. He is the greatest example of love ever to be. Do you think, on the other hand, that God is the ultimate example of love for those people burning in hell fire? Nope. Try the perfect example of justice and hatred if sin. Your explanation of Proverbs 16:4 is interesting, though it has holes. The problem is, you seem to add the concept of free will into the verse. All it says is that God created even the wicked for the day of judgement according to His purpose. It does not say He created the wicked to CHOOSE judgement, but that He created them FOR judgement, just as a child might build a tower of blocks for the purpose of knocking it down. (Note I am in no way comparing God to a child, but simply making an analogy.) You need to further explain where you get the concept of free will in this verse before using it to explain it. At the same time, I, the same as you, do not claim to understand why God would create some people for judgement. All I know is that God executes His perfect Holy will, and that He knows best. All things are for the glory of God. You quote John 3:16 as evidence for you side, but all this verse says is that anyone who believes in Christ has eternal life. Note this verse says nothing about how these people believe, whether by free will or predestination, thus is a moot point. Concerning Jude, You miss the point that they were "long ago marked out for this condemnation." The context speaks for and defends itself. You are correct in saying that God does not answer to man, and that man has no say in what God does, nor the right to question His decisions. You miss, however, the Q/A of the context. The question is why God finds fault in those he predestined to wrath, and hardens, such as Pharaoh. The answer is that God has the right to do whatever He wants with us, His creations. Note I almost quoted the verses. Again, they speak for and defend themselves. I made it clear that I will debate using all scripture equally. Yes, Rom. 3:10-22 and such refer to those who sin and don't seek God, but that decribes all of us before we are saved, and according to your beliefes, you accepted Christ while you were unable to accept Chrsit because you were dead in sin. It makes no sense. I will have to wait for my final round to address whether or not God wants all people in heaven, because I am down to 68 characters. Sorry for the inconvenience. Thanks! Renzzy