the bible does not teach that non-christians will necessarily be condemned

you want to talk about smoke and mirrors. i notice you're leaving the debate about the first verses i posted. i'll take that as a tacit acknowledgement the verses didn't say what you claimed they did. you next post has some more merit to it than the last one, but it's smoke and mirrors to avoid that your first post has been refuted. plus a lot of the verses you're now posting are pretty weak, and your reasoning weak. but i won't call it smoke and mirrors so much cause i think you persist in poor conclusions because of your bias. "For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;" this could be understood in a few ways. but the main thing as per our discussion is that this verse has nothing to do with christianity necessarily. it merely talks about God. so, a non-christian could believe in God and to do otherwise would be no excuse. indians could be saved etc (the other things are that most of humanity have believed in a divine being from time immemorials, it's in fact evidence that there's something to this thing called theism-not deductive proof just some evidence. and to deny these feelings might be not so good, or at least deny thegreater good suff. but anyways, my main point is the paragraph before this parenthetical) here is another verse that runs along those lines and supports my theory of general belief in God, or a gneral idea of man's conscience. notice the last part about "gentiles" and the plausible reference to how they'd get rewards etc for good work: 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God. and this is all also supported by all the analogies that Jesus did about the lambs and the goats. he never said believe in me as the central tenant. in fact, all the verses you're about to show invloved asking christians what to do to be saved... so if they said believe in Jesus, that was the fullness of the gospel and must be believed. plus.. when you look at the verses "believe the lord your God with all yoru heart mind soul etc and neighbor" the word "lord" doesn't mean Jesus in the old language. so, there's a general verse. it doesn't mean it's contradictory to the next post, only depends on how you reconciel them. if there's a general and a specific, you have to go general if specific makes contradictory Acts 16:30-31 - "Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved." it's not "by definition" depending on how you read that. "believe in Jesus" is the requirement for people who should know better. for those who don't, the other verses i've posted say not so much. that ver "believe in jesus" taken alone would lend itself to what you said, even though not necessarily even then. but, taken with everything else, not so much. Matt 25:32b-33 - "And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left." he's the proverbial shepard yes... so instead of assuming non-christians can't be saved since that's not supported by this passage.... the best assumption is that non-christians would also be sheep. again, you're imputing what's not there and then twisting it to suit your agenda. i'm not going to quote your syllogism whre you repeat this, cause by the time you break down the metaphor into a syllagism, you should have realized that non-christians could be sheep and your passage proves nothing other than your bias. ---Matt 25:34 - "Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." The ones on his right are saved. Lets see what happens to those on his left. Matt 25:41 - "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Oops - looks like they got condemned. so what's your point? yes condemnation is possible for non-christians, i enver said it wasn't. a good nonchristian though could be saved given what we've posted so far. --Furthermore, my opponent argues that lack of possibility of knowledge of God will keep one from being condemned. There's a slight problem with this. 5. The man on the island, who can know and doesn't believe, is condemned. more specifially, i argue the lack of knowledge doesn't condemn in itself. you're twisting my words. the best argument you got is that you gotta believe in God. agan, indians could be saved etc etc, as historically people have believed in God. i'd contend that that verse should be considered in the context of judism and such, such that if the message is that God exists, and nature indicates it might be true, and human nature does, then maybe you better believe. honestly though, this verse hurts both of us. me cause i'd assume nontheists could be saved. you more than me though for the purposes of theis debate, cause this doesn'tsay anything about non-christians. --""For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)" This verse claims God is the savior of all people. This is blatantly not the case if we are to believe the Gospel of Matthew - "Matt 25:41 - "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."" This verse actually more clearly illustrates God's inherent bigotry in treating individuals differently - "... especially of those who believe." Interesting... I guess that God loves some of us more than others. there's two ways you could reconcile the sheep and goats metaphor and the verse timothy. you choose to do it in a way that makes God a bigot. it's not the only way to read the verse though, as i showed above. and, given the plausible way of reading it, would't you rather read this verse for what it appears to say on its face? remember, on its face, this verse says "especially of those" which indicteas non's could be saved.