Socialized medicine is an abysmal failure

The US system is far from perfect and even the good parts are often complete crap. We are however discussing as a topic socialized medicine. You make good arguments that I am being overzealous in pointing out the wrong with the US system but then you turn around and argue that socialized medicine will save you 60 bucks and kill you. You are sometimes asked to wait for non-critical surgery. They aren't going to put you on a waiting list to save your life. If you need a hip replaced and are simply in a bit of pain until then they might make you wait, but for critical surgery you don't. We pay three times as much as Canada and you're saying that single payer is "too costly"? Then to add an even less cogent statements to your already pretty long list you note that you'll end up paying for the services even if you don't use them. What the hell do you suppose insurance is? Welfare is a specific program whereas universal healthcare is still healthcare. Even if you don't ever need the fire department you still pay for it. Are you going to argue that it's welfare for pyros? Universal healthcare isn't about being pampered it's about getting a critical service that everybody needs. I'm against the government doing anything with luxuries or to an extent giving money directly to people. Healthcare is simply something everybody uses and uses fairly equally (or very well might). I'm opposed to government intrusion and Big government, it's one of the reasons why I vote democratic. Every time a republican gets into office the government starts spying on the citizens and the government explodes. Outside of Clinton (the only Democratic Administration I've known) it's been all debt building government growing Republicans. The problems with the health-care industry is largely that it's a profit industry and sick people will pay whatever you ask. There's very little government intrusion in the health-care industry. Should I pay 200,000 dollars I don't have or let my daughter die? Let's weigh the pros and cons. In Canada you can get health insurance to cover some additional stuff if you want or get faster services if need be. It simply isn't often worthwhile. But that would allow for some benefits across the board. Paying a third as much for healthcare isn't required. We could pay half as much and get better quality healthcare. Typically though that's enough to cover what they need to cover. Canadians aren't dropping dead due to lack of care. Americans, however, are. The US government is 10 trillion dollars in debt. We haven't been only a trillion in debt since Reagan tripled the national debt. ---------------------- We pay three times as much for less in the way of services. If you're already sick you can't get insurance and without insurance you can't get care. Insurance providers will happily drop you for any number of bogus reasons and promptly reject claims. The majority of US doctors favor switching over to a universal healthcare program and those westernized countries with universal care (read all of them but us) are quite happy with their care. Some services have a waiting list if those services can wait. We could pay a bit more and overcome that issue if need be. However nothing you've said comes to proving the point required by the topic. Socialized medicine is not an abysmal failure. It has some pros and some cons. That isn't an abysmal failure in anybody's book. We have one of the worst healthcare systems imaginable whereas all of the best systems are socialized. That seems to be counter-indicative of the topic.