Rob Lucci vs Itachi

Contention #1: Itachi could drown Rob Lucci. 1) PRO claims that the water Itachi produces is not natural, thus would not weaken Rob Lucci, were he submerged in it. He claims that only ornary water is effective in weakening a devil fruit user. However, he provides no proof of this. Look at the statement I provided in the previous round, Oda plainly says "The sea here can refer to anything from rivers, pools and baths to any kind of standing water. On a worldwide level, they are all the "sea” What PRO says is baseless conjecture and should not be considered until he provides evidence to show otherwise. 2) PRO claims that Lucci's superior speed would enable him to avoid the water dragon and is thus relying on his fourth counter-point in this contention. See my response accordingly. Furthermore, also note my arguments regarding shadow clones and smokebombs. Even on the unlikely chance that Lucci was faster than Itachi, any form of distraction would be sufficient to bypass Mr. Lucci's speed. 3) PRO claims that I've presented no evidence that Itachi's water dragon would be impervious to Lucci's kicks. PRO is quite mistaken as my argument is premised upon common sense. What PRO is arguing is that Lucci could use his tempest kicks to slice through the water dragon. However, one can verify the truth of my argument by getting a knife and slashing at the water in a swimming pool. If this somehow causes the water to dissapear, I'll gladly concede on PRO's argument here. Otherwise, the tempest kick is simply not going to have any effect on a massive water dragon jutsu. The blades will fly right through the water. 4) PRO claims that because Lucci's power level (douriki) has been measured at 4000, this proves he is faster than Itachi. However, there are multiple problems with PRO's analysis. First, it should be noted that "doriki is basically the physical power of someone."[1] Physical strength tells us nothing about physical speed. I can bench press 400 pounds, but that does not give me the ability to keep up with Olympic level sprinters in a track race. Second, Mr. Lucci's doriki was measured at 4000 whereas the average marine was measured at 10.[2] Meaning Lucci is not "4000 times the normal capacity of the person much strength as for general skills" [sic]. Rather, Mr. Lucci is simply 400 times stronger than the average human male marine. Moreover, I don't know of any ordinary human that can run 200 miles per hour. Third, pretty much everything PRO has said is baseless. We don't have the ability to measure Mr. Lucci's precise speed. This stuff about measuring the amount of frames on screen (something he does not support with actual evidence) is classic art fallacy and can be used to come to wide number of absurd conclusions. For example, Hercule from DBZ must have super-speed, according to PRO, since he can "vanish" in plain sight.[3] However, the narrative in DBZ establishes that Hercule does not have super-speed. The lesson to be learned is that attempting to reach conclusionson the basis of animation alone is illogical,hence the art fallacy. It may just be the author's intent to say that X is moving pretty fast. How likely is it that the animators factor in time/distance/speed equations when producing these series? Unless PRO has something the author has actually given us, I'm going to have to insist that you disregard his baseless comments on this matter. 5) PRO concedes that the Kami-E cannot be used to detect the real Itachi, but that he could still anticipate attacks from anywhere. He bases this on Lucci's leopard form granting him enhanced smell, hearing and vision. However, not only have we never seen Lucci's display such abilities while in this form, but none of that explains how he's going to determine whether Itachi is real or a Shadowclone. You can have the best sight, smell and vision in the world. None of that makes a difference when against shadowclones, especially when up against master practioner like Itachi. Shadowclones are a chakra based technique and Lucci does not possess the ability to detect and distinguish chakra. Not to mention that there's nothing stopping a clone from erecting an impervious shield with the amaterasu or the susano'o. Contention #2: Itachi could burn Rob Lucci alive with the amaretsu. 1) When I cited chapter 478 of Naruto, I was making the point that we have reason to believe that Sasuke's proficiency with the mangekyou techniques was inferior to Itachi's. The fact that Sasuke's tsukyomi is inferior is ample evidence of this. Not to mention that Itachi has had the mangekyou for a longer period of time and is overall a more experienced shinobi. There is ample reason to believe that Itachi could make better use of these techniques than Sasuke could during his battle with the Raikage. 2) PRO reiterates his claims about Lucci's speed, but as I've pointed out, the reasoning he uses to determine his speed is flawed and unsupported by actual evidence. As I've insisted, this stuff about Lucci being nigh-lightspeed is quite baseless and doesn't explain how a powerless Luffy can utter a full sentence while Lucci, in close range of Luffy, is charging at him at full speed.[4]. PRO further says that you should disregard my evidence since Lucci was not at his peak, but as the fight demonstrates afterwards, both Lucci and Luffy still had plenty of fight in them afterwards. Are we really to believe that Lucci has gone from moving "near the speed of light" to moving substantially slower than the speed of sound (i.e. Luffy uttering a full sentence before Lucci could reach him)? Or is it simply much more likely that Lucci is simply nowhere near as fast as PRO would have you believe? Use your common sense, members of DDO. Contention #3: Itachi could seal Lucci away forever with the Susano'o 1) Members of DDO, all you need do is read what Orochimaru said in the link I provided. He said nothing about "his universe" and the author gives us no reason to believe that it could only work in "his universe." Again, PRO is simply making baseless assertions. Moreover, by PRO's logic, I could reach the conclusion that Lucci's powers only work in "his universe." It's a double standard that defies common sense. 2) The greatest disproof of PRO"s argument about the Sasuke vs Raikage fight is the Sasuke vs. the Raikage fight itself.[5] Here, we see Sasuke battling the Raikage just fine while using nothing more than the Amaterasu and the Susano'o. In the process, the Raikage loses an arm and nearly a leg, whereas Sasuke comes out of the battle unscathed. If not for Gaara's interference, the Raikage would have lost his leg much like he had lost his arm. Since its uncontested that Itachi was superior to Sasuke at that time, just imagine if it had been Itachi facing the Raikage? Use your common sense, members of DDO. Itachi is clearly capable of battling speedy opponents of ridiculous speed. 3) There is absolutely no indication that Lucci was just as strong as Luffy. Think about it folks. PRO is claiming that Luffy was strong enough to shake a city in an earlier story arc. Lucci's own stated doriki proves he isn't that strong. His doriki was 4000, meaning he was 400 times stronger than an ordinary human marine. Does anyone seriously believe that 400, 4000 or even 40,000 ordinary men could shake an entire city? Of course not. Lucci was not as strong as Luffy, but he did have more experience, greater skill and greater speed (through most of the fight). Even when Luffy amped his strength with Gear 3, Lucci responded by using speed and strategy (i.e. exploiting Luffy's weakness against sharp attacks). These are viable means of engaging Luffy in combat. Sources: [1] http://onepiece.wikia.com... [2] http://www.mangapanda.com... [3] http://tinyurl.com... (@ 3:17) [4] http://tinyurl.com... (@ 3:15) [5] http://tinyurl.com...