BeIR/webis-touche2020 huggingface dataset:
bible is not clear: faith = justification + works... OR faith + works = justification

responding to your points. 1. how do you necessarily say that 'faith alone' is the way? you're mostly just making assertions and how things are, and not even resorting to the bible, which is the whole foundation of the debate. also, how do you reconcile things like how jesus emphasizes works? the parable of the servants doing right before the master returns. the statement that at the last judgment he will separate the lambs from the goats based on their deeds. paul says we are "to work out our salvation in fear and trembling". the only place 'faith alone' is even used in the bible, is to say we are not saved by faith alone? i could go on and on. 2. im not sure how not everyone who says they are christian, are not really, has anything to do with the faith v works debate we're currently having. on your side point of that topic (which i still dont see how it has to do with real v nonreal christians), i understand that is the argument. faith = justification + works. but how is this necessarily so and not the other equation? and again, you biblical support is lacking.
bible is not clear: faith = justification + works... OR faith + works = justification

Thank you for posing this question. I am a Christian myself, and I am aware of many claims of contradictions in the Bible. These verses actually coincide. Keep in mind that it is very easy to put Biblical text in whatever context you want and justify ANYTHING - even horrendous acts. I believe that is how many people try to argue a Biblical contradiction. Anyhow, let's get to the points. 1) The book of James is referring to something that happened in the old testament prior to Jesus dying on the cross. The "saved by faith" concept was instigated once Jesus died on the cross. Prior to his crucifixion, people were "justified" (cleaned of their sins) via the sacrifice of animals or whatever else God asked them for. Nowadays, salvation is gained by the acknowledgement/understanding that we are inherently born in sin, and the desire for forgiveness, and the desire to change. 2) This next thing is something that non-Christians seem get wrong quite a lot. Atheists often call us out as using the No True Scotsman fallacy when we say "They're not real Christians." The No True Scotsman fallacy only holds water when there is, in fact, no counterfeit. The No True Scotsman fallacy implies that their is a false claim of counterfeit. When people say "Obama isn't a Christian" or "The Westboro Baptist Church aren't Christians", I would agree with them. Professing Christianity, believing in Yaweh, and spouting Bible verses doesn't make you a Christian. This might seem slightly irrelevant, but now I will explain what it has to do with my point. When someone is saved by faith and receives salvation, THAT is ultimately what saves them. However, BECAUSE they have been saved by faith, they will IN TURN start doing good works. They understand the love that God supposedly showed to them, so they will then project it out to someone else. You can do good works all day, and that won't save you by faith. Faith has to be gained through salvation, and hence you will desire to do good works. So, to wrap up: Back in THOSE times, before the crucifixion, people WERE justified by works; sacrifices. HOWEVER, they made those 'blood' sacrifices (so to speak) because they realized they needed help. Thanks, good luck.
bible is not clear: faith = justification + works... OR faith + works = justification

I've actually since changed my view on this... I will quote both verses in ESV. "20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness""and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." "Abraham Justified by Faith 4 What then shall we say was gained by[a] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in[b] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." NEITHER verses say that we are justified by faith alone. BOTH imply faith AND works. That's really all I have to say.
Eternal life is existing

Everything suggests that we may live in a multiverse. This is backed up by most modern scientists. If we indeed live in a multiverse, it will indicate that not only there is a infinite number of 'you' out there, but it will also make you immortal. Multiverse would also explain dark matter, big bang etc. It would explain gravity as well as infinite and eternal inflation. The multiverse also means that you and me will live again after we die, because the atoms and particles that you are made of, will EVENTUALLY be the same out somewhere in the space and they will fall in the same order thus making you really YOU again. I will suggest you to read 'Eternal return by Nietzsche.
Eternal life is existing

Eternal life does not make sense. If everyone had eternal life, then where did every single person on this Earth come from. First, if people were really living an eternal life, then why do we see people die? If eternal life was true, then no one would be dead, therefor, eternal life cannot be true at all. Second, death is a huge thing in most people life. Satan and Lucifer are beliefs that have arisen because of death. If people lived forever, then the figures of death would not be true. Third, decomposition of remains is also another argument against eternal life. People over time decompose, and they are left as skeletons. Eternal life is proven wrong by this because it is not possible, because the remains of the human would not decompose from the body.
Eternal life is existing

The basic premise proceeds from the assumption that the probability of a world coming into existence exactly like our own is greater than zero (we know this because our world exists). If space is infinite, then cosmology tells us that our existence will recur an infinite number of times. We also know for a fact that we are made of atoms and particles. Giving infinite time and space, there will eventually be same atoms and particles IN SAME ORDER, therefore our existence is cyclical and not linear. My opponent will need to explain why there shouldn't be an infinite and eternal universe rather than finite one. Speaking of logic, the only reasonable answer would be that we indeed are living in an eternal and infinite space, where big bangs are occurring infinitely without need for cause. This would also explain the 'free will' problem. Space doesn't care what you think. Its a random generation of algorithms that will make all possible outcomes reality. For an example; I'm president of US in a parallel universe. And in another universe I'm living in a world where star wars really happened. So according to the eternal return theory, we do not have free will.
Jury system for DDO

There are a few issues with their additions, namely, any additions that are added after the debate is accepted is up to debate, and not automatically accepted. This is not like a debate with undefined words, but actually a debate where the jury method was defined prior to their acceptance of the debate. == CON'S CASE == We have two major issues with the jury system that will be brought up in this debate. It will encourage abuse towards new members that are unfamiliar with DDO, and it will discourage honest voting by older members. 1) Abuse towards new members The key to a successful jury system is both members being able to agree upon a set on unbias voters to judge the debate. However, should one member not be familiar with the biases of many DDO users, it allows the other member to control the jury and stack it in their favor. New members will also be less likely to understand the differences between a jury debate and an open voting debate, and so not understand the reasons to pick one of the other. As such we will likely see a wave of newb sniping in these Jury debates along political line. This a bad for DDO for the reason that it make new members vulnerable to abuse, thus driving them away. Since DDO is a site that survives and grows off of new ideas and new members, such a policy would be bad for the future of DDO. If the membership stagnates, the growth of ideas dies out and the site will become dull and boring, and so older members will leave for somewhere else. Should new members be driven away from staying, and old members flee out of boredom, the site will eventually die. 2) Dishonest voting This is actually caused by the exception clause for jury debates, in that if you are not selected for Jury duty, you are not kicked off the leader boards for not participating. This creates the incentive for people to do what they can to not get picked for jury duty. The easiest way for that is to have poor voting. I for one, will say, that if any "jury system" forces me to vote, I will vote bomb all until people stop trying to force me to vote. Other prominent members have suggested that they would flat out leave if any system were to try and force them to do anything. By vote bombing, I fulfill my obligation to vote, while at the same time help ensure that no one else will demand that I be a part of their jury. This is not unlike real world situations where people pretend to be racist and bigots just to avoid jury duty [1], as George Carlin said, "Tell the judge you'll make a great juror, as you can spot guilty people just by looking at them. " By doing so, I will be allowed to stay on the leader board, while the honest voters will continue to be targeted and forced to vote against their will. This is the best way to kill honest voting. I will keep the round short with this and pass it on to my opponent. Thank you, [1] . http://www.zoklet.net... . http://www.businessinsider.com... . http://www.askmen.com...
Jury system for DDO

Before anything, X = 7 (need an odd number to increase chance of a winner, not a tie, and need decent range to avoid prejudiced bias)As pro I have the right to amend the issue of the Y votes like this:Y=2Amended rules:A member can pick both methods of voting, they needn't pick one or the other since neither affects their place on the other leaderboard.If member doesn't vote on 2 debates in a month (this could even vary from 1st Jan to 28th Feb and count), they are merely 'deactivated' from leaderboar (not their account). If they wish to re-enter leaderboard systems they must judge at least 2 a month, minimum of all members.ADDITIONAL RULES:LOOK CAREFULLY- Under "dashboard" will be a tab named 'jury duty' On this tab is an active/inactive button (which no needn't alter next time you sign in unless you wish to judge) and also you can select the subjects/topics of debate. (they need only wory about being avilable enough time for two a month, could even do those two the same day)- All votes require FULL REASONINGS (which is why Y only equals 2)- All votes are subject to be analyzed by Juggle and any in authority at the time, at DDO. If a member offers a troll reasoning for any kind, they can imediately be threatened with a ban unless they can justify to those in authority that the reason was genuine and sufficient.- If a debate, like MouthWash and Danielle, where any illegal means of hakcing and/or glitching were used to engage in it, the jury can votebomb against the person using the glitch initially and responsible for it throughout debate (in this case MouthWash) and state because it was too long to read or whatever the glitch caused to happen.Jury is good because it will avoid ties.
Jury system for DDO

The Jury system in question, as proposed is as follows. - When creating a debate, the instigator may choose either the traditional voting method or the jury method. - With the jury method, X active DDO members that are able to vote are randomly selected. - The instigator and contender then agree on which of those will be selected to the jury. - Members of the jury are obligated to vote on the debate for which they were selected for. - No members outside the jury may vote on a jury debate. - A separate leader board will be created for jury debates. - Members must vote on at least Y jury debates each month (feel free to adjust the quantities and time frame as needed). - If a member does not vote on at least Y, they will be excluded from ALL leader boards. - If a member does not vote on at least Y jury debates because they were not selected for jury duty, they are exempt from being excluded from ALL leader boards. The terms X and Y are unknown constants which would need to be worked out, but they would be some set number. More discussion on this can be found in the following thread. http://www.debate.org... BOP for this debate will be shared. We will be discussing this option a la carte and not part of a larger group. I thank everyone for taking the time to read, comment, and vote.
The Existence, "Mercy," and "Perfection" of God.

And glad to know something with 5,585 pieces of "evidence", yet when put together, CANNOT agree with the supposed timeline of evolution, is considered proven. Yep. Ok. By the way, EVOLUTION, is clearly shown, but i said Darwinian Evolution, which is different. Considering people used to believe that the universe was static until a certian someone (Albert Einstien) showed them the Universe was actually constantly expanding, implying a starting point, also means nothing as well i suppose. Even if it did, then its ok if the Universe breaks the first law of motion (object in motion stays in motion/object in rest stays in res UNLESS acted upon by and OUTSIDE force) and just EXPLODES out of nowhere. People have mentioned the corners of the earth before. What does it mean? it means the WHOLE WORLD. Let me break it down. If the world is a SPHERE (thus meaning NO CORNERS), then clearly mentioning corners of the world would mean the entire world. Makes perfect logical sense. And if having (again) over 22,000 pieces of historical records that agree 99.9% with our current Bible (not even mentioning the other books that support the Bible), written by Physicians, Kings, Peasants, in the span of over 400 years ALL ON THE EXACT SAME SUBJECT is CLEARLY inaccurate, yet every time you pickup a Shakespeare poem, its CLEARLY the exact same thing he wrote back who knows when. Glad to know. In closing: My job was not to stump you, but rather, to provide "proof", as you mentioned in round 1. And i provided that proof. Now, you have the final word as to what you believe, however, i stand by my facts and figures.
The Existence, "Mercy," and "Perfection" of God.

http://www.theistic-evolution.com... This is what annoys me. People are still debating evolution. Let me make this perfectly clear: Evolution is a PROVEN FACT! The THEORY of evolution is our understanding of the mechanisms by which evolution works. Stop saying evolution has "little to no true evidence" We ALREADY HAVE THE EVIDENCE. EVOLUTION. IS. PROVEN! Don't believe me? Refer to the link for all those transitional fossils that "don't exist." Or you could just look up, "Tiktaalik." Seriously. Creationism is a load of propaganda mixed with religious dogma and a political agenda. Let me make another thing perfectly clear: humans didn't come from apes, we still ARE apes. Adam and Eve never existed because that would make all humans a product of incest. The Great Flood didn't happen because that would make us products of incest TWICE OVER. The Bible is one of the most historically INACCURATE books to date, referencing the "corners" of the Earth, demon-possessed pigs, talking snakes and donkeys, and an invisible, omnipotent, genocidal, megalomaniacal SKY DADDY! None of these things have ANY proof running for them, and therefore cannot be represented as accurate in any way. Also, concerning your "cross-shaped laminin" argument, laminin is a GROUP of proteins that share their similar function and shape, and are only shaped thusly for purposes of efficient bonds with cells and other laminin proteins. They are NOT God's little cellular "I love you," especially since considering a cross a sign of love is equivalent to considering a guillotine or noose thusly. In closing, I must say that I'm disappointed that you never stumped me with something not answerable by an atheistic and scientific world view. I realize you'll be getting the last word in, so I'll say in closing that you shouldn't pose anything in your final argument as a question, and I look forward to the conclusion of this debate.
The Existence, "Mercy," and "Perfection" of God.

Both the attached videos and my typed arguments will address certain points made or not yet recognized by my opponent. My opponent claims that before, "The Fall," Adam and Eve were perfect, but that is inherently false, for if they were perfect, in the true sense of the word, why were they even able to be tricked by Satan (In the form of a talking snake-so believable) into eating the tree that God, in his supposed perfection, taunted them with by placing it smack dab in the middle of the Garden of Eden. If God is truly perfect and omniscient, why couldn't he just forsee these things happening and prevent them? Also, if he is so merciful, why is his "Eternal Penal System" so incredibly flawed? Just for not being touched by his magic water as a baby, you are sentenced to purgatory, and if you commit inhuman atrocities, and then get baptized right before you die, you're theoretically saved and forgiven. Vice-versa, if you were incredibly selfless, kind-hearted, and generally good, but never accepted his existence, you're sentenced to eternal suffering by default, and all your acts of good are disregarded in light of your ATROCIOUS inability to believe in something without any evidence. If I might cite the story of one man that, in my opinion, spent his life on testing the flaws of God's (in)justice system. A man had several vats of acid with body parts from at least 11 different individuals dissolving in his house, and was of course immediately put on death row, but had made a strange request, in light of what happened: he wanted to be baptized. In the end, after much protest from the public, he was given his wish. Of course, after he was put to death (I believe by lethal injection) He would, in theory, have gone straight to heaven for being washed and forgiven of ALL his sins through baptism. God himself also isn't exactly a model of morality, endorsing genocide, infanticide, sexism, rape, incest, slavery, beating, stonings, etc. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that both God and the Bible are biased and imperfect because they were born in the imaginations of 2,000 year old MEN. So one simple question: If God is perfect and all-merciful, why does he let us suffer? http://www.youtube.com... http://www.youtube.com...
The Existence, "Mercy," and "Perfection" of God.

I expect to learn a lot from you. First things first: in relation to the points that supposedly refute God's existence, there is one answer for ALL excluding Hell: The Fall we all know the story of Adam and Eve, who ate the forbidden fruit (not necessarily an apple, but it was something). PRIOR to this, Adam and Eve were perfect, they had constant communication with God, and there was NO SUFFERING. There was also no Sin (which is defined as going against the commands of God, or for whatever deity you worship). So chronologically, it would be: Paradise --> The Fall --> Suffering, Sin, ect. Hell was created for the people who reject the OFFER (not reward, but offer) of salvation granted to us by Jesus Christ, who is the supposed Son of God. We'll look into that in a little bit. Hell is designed as a place of eternal torment, because of Satan (or Lucifer, or the devil) decided he was better than his creator and wanted to become God Himself. Thats kind of like a watch you built from scratch (including welding the metal to form gears) decided that it was better than you. That will be my opening, as I'm running out of time (I have places to go), but I will address the other points you have mentioned when time permits.
The Existence, "Mercy," and "Perfection" of God.

*FAIR WARNING* Attached Videos may contain expletives. All throughout the Bible, the authors, who are of course not directly speaking for God, talk of his "mercy" and "perfection," when in fact he seems to be tyrannical and self-serving, if he even exists, which he, of course, doesn't. From a logical standpoint, it's easy to see that Christianity is just a patchwork version of earlier religions, especially desert cults, and organized Egyptian religion. religion itself was used to explain the world BEFORE science, and has no logical place in a society that now realizes only science brings real, demonstrable improvements to human life. No evidence at all supports continued belief in any deities of any sort. Suppose, however, that we could entertain the idea that he DOES exist. we move on now to his supposed mercy and perfection. If God is all-knowing, all-merciful, and the creator of everything, explain: 1) Suffering 2) Hell 3) Sin (and the criteria for the definition of sin) 4) Suffering 5) Human Faults (Humans are supposedly made in his image) 6) Other Religions, or lack thereof 7) SUFFERING These videos also raise some interesting points http://www.youtube.com... http://www.youtube.com... I could go on for hours with all the reasons God doesn't exist. What I ask is simple: give me one SHRED of demonstrable evidence that proves God exists, the Bible is truth, yours is the only religion that is 100% true, etc. No hurt feelings intended, and have a wonderful, Godless day! ~Sotiras~