The Russian Communists Were Not Motivated By Atheism

1. Re: Lenin's quote was not for the masses but was written for the Communists themselves... This statement was not simply a case of a politician telling people what they wanted to hear. I never argued that Lenin was telling the people what they wanted to hear. What I said was that just because Lenin made no mention of atheism specifically does not mean that atheism was not a motivating factor. I maintain that my opponent does not know - and can never know - what his motivations or the motivations of others are, either in this situation or any, but especially a scenario with political aims. All we can do is use clues to make assumptions. Throughout the rest of the debate I will explain why it is plausible to believe that atheism, or atheistic beliefs, motivated communism or at least was used to promote the spread of communism. 2. Re: It's very clear it was indeed their [communist] ideology which shaped their views about religion. Here my opponent is trying to use a Chicken and Egg argument: Which came first - the religion or the politics? In other words, were the political beliefs by communists motivated by their atheism, or was their atheism motivated by their political ideology? Pro acknowledges that communists felt religion was "counterrevolutionary," and mentions their belief that the elimination of religion would remove the wool from the eyes of the oppressed to expose the harms associated with such beliefs. In other words, supporters of communism (their idea that the working classes were being exploited/held subordinate by believing their real reward would be attained in the after life) came to their political conclusion because they believed that there was NO after life for them to be rewarded. In other words, this is a blatant example of how atheistic ideals influenced communism. Since they believed that there was no omnipotent God and/or Heaven, there could be no "real rewards" achieved other than the ones here on earth. Additionally, because communism viewed religion as "the opium of the people," it was considered a threat to Marx's (and Lenin and Stalin's) goals. According to Marx, religion helped keep the masses passive, and the only way to free them from the "stupor" would be to eradicate the idea that God existed. In other words, the enforcement of atheism was a critical requirement for Communism's success, and thus it had to be implemented at all costs. This included taking oppressive measures, such as brainwashing in state schools, the closing of houses of worship and arresting countless religious leaders. While Pro implied that *I* seem to not know much about the subject, I could just as easily say the same about my opponent -- The (Soviet) communists attempted to create a Utopian determination to substitute secular rationalism for what they considered to be an unmodern, superstitious world view; the result of this militant atheism was to transform the Church into a persecuted and martyred Church. They confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools. In other words, they USED ATHEISM TO PROMOTE COMMUNISM. To believe in God was to believe in upholding religious teachings above state teachings. Because this would be detrimental to communism, according to the soviets, the only way they could successfully spread a Marxist ideology would be to promote atheism. Thus, I have explained how atheism DID motivate the communists; the resolution has been affirmed. My opponent's strategy of the "What came first" or what influenced what argument is not only irrational but entirely irrelevant. I maintain that simply believing in communism doesn't necessarily mean that one must become atheist. However, atheism can be used to promote communistic ideals. To argue that a communistic ideology would be enough to deter people from believing in an omnipotent God (i.e. Pro's assertion that communism --> atheism instead of the other way around) is a bit of a stretch, especially because you can be a communist theist as well. In other words, my opponent is unsuccessfully trying to equate communism and atheism with capitalism and theism, where there is in fact no absolute correlation; one is a religious belief and the other is economic. My point is the more rational one: I maintain that the belief that there is no God (atheism) is enough to convince people that implementing a communism would be most beneficial to them and to the state, whereas convincing a theist that an economic and/or political ideology here on earth is greater than their religious beliefs and an omnipotent God would be a much harder feat. In other words, without the promotion of atheism, the masses would not have accepted communism. Further, my point that this "Which came first" argument is obviously irrelevant as it actually does not matter which came first; the point here is that atheism - the idea that there is no God - was promoted as the means to an end (Communism) and therefore the resolution is again obviously affirmed. My opponent's own quote supports this -- He says that we can clearly see that the GOAL WAS TO GET PEOPLE TO GIVE UP RELIGION, i.e. promote atheism. He also quotes "The fight for godlessness [atheism] is a fight for socialism." Pro claims that this quote is further evidence that Marxism influenced communism; I argue that while this may be true, it was atheism that motivated Marxism. "Large numbers were killed for refusing to abandon their religious beliefs. A great many were sent to concentration camps... Large numbers were persecuted and killed for practicing religion, and for being interferences to atheist-communist expansion.lled for refusing to abandon their religious beliefs. A great many were sent to concentration camps... Militant atheism, therefore, was a major factor in the murder of countless millions, during the past century. Unfortunately, militant atheism, is still driven by some of the same extremist views reminiscent of atheist-communist regimes of old. They, like their predecessors, do not hesitate to admit that they hate God, religion and that they would like to see both disappear forever" [1]. 3. Re: Atheism does not make any positive assertion beyond a lack of belief in a deity. I will concede to my opponent's observation (note: I noted that some atheists are spiritualists who do believe in an after life). However, to acknowledge this point would be to eliminate my opponent's very own argument(s). Throughout this debate he has listed quote after quote explaining how it was upholding religious teachings above the state's which the Communists found dangerous, including the belief of an afterlife that rewarded people after death. So, communists promoted atheism to dismantle the idea that there was no afterlife. 4. Re: Lack of religion is not bad for society. My opponent talked about Sam Harris and religion/morality again in R2, even after stating that he would "allow me to refrain" from arguing that religion is not necessary for morality (Thanks, but I did not need your permission to refrain from doing so -- it simply is irrelevant to the resolution and both of our arguments). 5. Re: Conclusion Pro asserts that my misinterpretation of atheism helps to prove his point. I have not misinterpreted anything, actually; I merely discussed why atheism was PROMOTED (to discredit the idea of an afterlife) - something Pro himself discussed at length. He also notes that the document he cited from Lenin was "for the Communists very own eyes" which not only is non-sensical (it was a persuasive document meant to promote communism, i.e. not only for those who were already communist) but irrelevant, as he still has not proven that atheism was not a factor. Additionally, Pro's point that Marxism was the sole motivating factor for Communism fails, as Marxism was influenced by atheism. [1] Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr; 1991. "The Gulag Archipelago." Chapter 2