John Elway is NOT one of the Greatest Quarterbacks Ever

I have never rejected the fact that career stats are important. I have never focus on one specific season. Instead I showed the importance of individual seasons. There is a difference. In the second round, i stated that "I will argue Elway is more of a compiler". And that is absloutely true. Elway never led the league in passer rating, touchdowns or completion percentage. He has only led the league in yards once. Thus how can we come to the conclusion that Elway is an elite quarterback? Elway played 16 years and started 231 games. His average stats, listed back in round 2 are not worthy of a 10 ten quarterback. Also, large numbers of pass attempts are not important. Because of his large pass attempts, Elway finshed with poor TD% and pass yards per attempt. Elway never finshed with over 8 yards per attempt. His career touchdown percentage is just 4.1% and his yards per attempt is only 7.1 I have no idea where my opponent "already established passer rating isn't important". Quite the contrary, I believe passer rating is the most important stat. It effectively combines touchdowns, yards, interceptions and pass attempts. Thus, a quarterback cannot have a high rating unless he is efficient. My opponent has also claimed that Rate+ is totally "useless". Once again this baffles me. Rate+ is a very useful stat that compares a player's passer rating to the league's passer rating. Thus it accounts for today's pass happy league. Like I said before, there is NO EXCUSE for Elway's poor Rate+ in his earlier seasons. My opponent has been Approximate Value Stat to show how well Elway has played in his career. However, i doubt the validity of such a stat. For example, they give Philip Rivers a score of 16 in 2013. This is amazing as that score is below his score in 2008, 2009, 2010, his turnover filled 2011 season and even his first season as a starter, 2006. Never mind that River's 2013 Rate+ is 20 points above his 2011 Rate+ , 10 points above his 2006 Rate+ and 5 points above his 2010 Rate+. Year #, TD, Yards, Completion %, Int, Passer rating, Rate+ , "Value" 2006, 22, 3388, 61.7%, 9, 92.0, 115, 18 2011, 27, 4624, 62.9%, 20, 88.7, 105, 17 2013, 32, 4478, 69.5%, 11, 105.5, 125,16 As you can see, Rivers was much better in 2013 than in 2006 or 2011. His passer rating was higher by 13.5 points and 16.8 points respectively. That just leads me to wonder. How in the world is his value lower in 2013? Another example is Drew Brees in 2008 and 2009. Year#, TD, Yards, Completion %, Int, Passer Rating, Rate+,, "Value" 2008, 34, 5069, 65,0%, 17, 96.2, 116, 17 2009, 34, 4388, 70.6%, 11, 109.6, 132, 16 Brees had more yards in 2008... and that's it. Sure it was 681 extra yards, but Brees completed a higher percentage of his passes, had six less interceptions, his passer rating was 13.4 points higher and his Rate+ was 16 points better. And in 2009, Brees led the "Aints" all the way to a Super Bowl victory. My opponent states that becasue Rate+ and Value comes from the same site, thus they must have the same validity. Unfortunately, he is wrong. This is because Rate+ is a skip away from an actual stat, passer rating. Rate+ is found simply dividing the player's passer rating over the league's passer rating and then multiplying by 100 to make it easier to see. Thus, it takes into account higher league passer rating. Meanwhile, the way Value is found is absloutely mystifying. They might some kind of crazy forumla that demands serious review. My opponent also notes Elway's large amounts of game winning drives and comebacks. But comebacks aren't neccessary impressive. For example, remember Aaron Rodgers back in 2011? Those Packer scored 560 points and went 15-1. Yes, they were knocked out in the divisonal round. But it was by the eventual Super Bowl champions, the Giants. And how many game winning drives did Rodgers have? How many 4th quarter comebacks? 0 game winning drives. One 4th quarter comeback. That's not just a fluke either, in 2010 when the Packers won the Super Bowl, Rodgers had 0 game winning drives and 1 4th quarter comeback. Rodgers and the Packers were simply so good, they almost never found themselves LOSING in the 4th quarter. The fact is that comebacks are nice, but I rather have a quarterback that doesn't NEED to comeback. Let's take a look at a very recent example, Andrew Luck against the Chiefs during the divisional round. Luck- 29/45, 443 yards, 4 passing touchdowns, 3 interceptions, 1 fumble recovery touchdown The Colts had fallen behind 38-10 with 13:39 left in the 3rd quarter. Then Luck had a historic comeback. But however, can it argued that Luck had a fantastic game? Yes he threw for the second highest yards in franchise history for a playoff game. But the thing is though, he threw 3 picks and finished with a passer rating of "only" 98.7. Luck did save the game for the Colts. However, he nearly BLEW the game for the Colts. If it was Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, they would never be in a hole in the first place. Of course, some comebacks are from quarterbacks who didn't make mistakes. Let's say Luck didn't throw any picks, it wasn't his fault that the Colts were falling behind. In that case, then yes Luck was very impressive. But Luck did throw those picks, and thus he should be blamed as much as he should be praised. Considering that Elway threw 226 career interceptions, we come to the conclusion that he dug a hole for himself. Like my opponent stated, "how is one season more representative of Elway than a whole career?". Thus I do not look at what Elway do in the 4th quarter, but instead the entire game. My opponent states that "the definition of 'elite' today is not even close to the one 20 or 30 years ago. Quarterbacks weren't routinely throwing for 3,000 yards and 30 touchdowns in the 80s and 90s, because the game was different." Yes, quarterbacks didn't have amazing stats before like they did today. HOWEVER, the definition has not changed and will never change. 'Elite' means the best. When I look at Elway's stats, he was never a great quarterback. He only led his league in yards in 1993. That's it. He finished in the top 5 in major stats less times than Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady and even Philip Rivers. That's unacceptable. Meanwhile, my opponent is still hiding behind the fact that it was harder to pass before. I have made adjustments to stats. Rate+ is a big example. It compares the player's passer rating to the league passer rating. Thus, it eliminates any advantage. The fact that Philip Rivers and Tony Romo have better Rate clearly shows why Elway is overrated. Also, when I use the amount of times a player has finished in the top 5, that accounts for the pass happy league. Rivers finished in top 5 for yards 3 times, touchdowns 4 times, passer rating 4 times, % twice, and interception only once. And he has played half the seasons Elway has played. The fact is Rivers is better compared to his league than Elway is to his league. The belief that Elway is an amazing quarterback is completely unjustifiable. Pro Bowls are overrated. What can I say? I show an example in LaDainian Tomlinson in2003. He led the league in yards from scrimmage and was not elected to the Pro Bowl. Every single year, snubs are made. Also, only fans vote for the Pro Bowl. They are allowed to vote as many times they want, thus making the Pro Bowl more about popularity than skill. Coaches and the media vote for All-Pro, the very best of the best. Elway was never voted to the first team All-Pro. What about playoffs? Elway playoffs numbers are not very impressive. 54.5% completion, 4,964 yards, 27 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, a 79.7 quarterback rating in 22 games. His numbers are almost identical to his regular season stats, which are not impressive. How about the Super Bowl? 50% completion, 1,128 yards, three touchdowns, eight interceptions, a 59.3 quarterback rating. They are horrific. The fact is, Elway was never a great quarterback. Even in the Super Bowls he won, he did terrible. Summary: -Elway's stats are based off of longevity, not greatness, he only led the league in a major category once. His career passer rating is just 79.9, bad even for his time. Remember, Boomer Esiason had a career 81.1 passer rating -Comebacks are overrated. I want a quarterback that doesn't fall into a hole. -Elway's playoffs stats aren't impressive -Elway's Super Bowl stats are TERRIBLE -Elway's team won lots of games in the regular season. But since Elway has only average stats, then how can we conclude that it Elway that carried the team? Especially in the 1997 Super Bowl where Terrell Davis had 157 rushing yards and 3 touchdowns whereas Elway finished witha passer rating of 51.9 And that's the story of John Elway, a man with a great arm, but never did much with it. I wish my opponent good luck and VOTE PRO. Sources: 1) http://www.pro-football-reference.com... 2) http://scores.espn.go.com... 3) http://www.pro-football-reference.com... 4) http://bleacherreport.com...