That God does not exist

1. Perfection "A lightbulb able to handle any wattage is not perfect because it has one attribute of perfection. If it had all the attributes of perfection, it would not be a lightbulb." Pro has not told us what these "attributes" of perfection are. Would you please name them, Pro? While you are at it, would you please tell us from which dictionary or lexicon you found that definition of perfection? I have already shown you where the dictionary defines perfection as simply being "complete," not lacking any parts, and without defects that stop the thing from oeprating the way it was made to. So a lightbulb which is in sound condition, working perfectly (that is, funtioning properly), is perfect. It will no longer be perfect if it is damaged. Pro wants us to accept his made up defintion of perfection but this ain't going to happen. "My opponent asserts my definition is contrary to the dictionary or thiestic teaching. Here he is going against the standard debate convention of the affirmative right of definition, something that should really only be done if my definition was unreasonable, which it blatently wasn't." Excuse me, both Pro and Con in any debate have a right to define the terms they are using, but none of them have the right to invent their own definition of words without carefully explaining (1) why they disagree with the standard definitions used the language as found in dictionaries, and (2) by what process did they come to the definition they are using. Pro isn't telling us anything about the phonetics of the ancient terms from which "perfection" comes, nor its early usage, etc. We have no way of knowing that Pro's definition of the word is correct. I have shown where the word came from, what its original meaning was, the syllables in the orginal Latin, etc. All from a well respected source. I guess the voters will have to make up their own minds. "I never said perfection is omnipotence. I said perfection requires omnipotence." What encyclopedia can you point to that defines perfection in such a way that it requires omnipotence? First of all, God himself is a subject of religion; so first I'll go to religion for their say on the word "perfection," and there I find that even Islam and Christianity agree that Adam was made perfect, yet, was not omnipotent. Also, I gave you three definitions from an online encyclopedia that do not include omnipotence. It seems that Pro is ignoring the traditional meanings of perfection in order to make his case. Ignoring evidence doesn't win a debate. "My opponent said perfection is completeness, flawlessness and successful (to paraphrase Aristotle). Even if I was to accept this framework, it would still be imperfect to not be omnipotent." In Pro's opinion. I'd like to see him quote one grammarian or linguist who agrees that "perfection" must include "omniptence." Christianity teaches that all saints will be perfect in the new heavens and new earth, but they will not be omnipotent. I've never seen a dictionary define perfection as involving omnipotence. But even if it did, I pointed out other definitions of perfection. God, however, is both perfect and omnipotent, so I don't have a problem here. "That's because any imperfect entity would be more complete, flawless and successful by being able to do more. Every thing that it cannot do is, after all, limiting its completeness, flawlessness and success." First, I think there was a typo here, I think you meant "perfect," not "imperfect" in the first sentence here. Second, iI disagree that the inability to do something limits a things completeness. A bicycle cannot fly, does that limit its completeness? No! Is it flawless because it can't fly? No; its only flawed if it isn't doing what is is supposed to be doing. Or if its damaged somehow. Success? So because bicycles can't fly they aren't very successful? This is rediculous. Is your success limited because you can't meow exactly like a cat does? Pro has taken the extreme position that anything at all that a being cannot do makes it less successful and complete. So when Leonardo Da Vinci drew the Mona Lisa, her face was incomplete because her painting couldn't bake a cake nor climb a ladder! Artists know that this is a "perfect" work of art, and this is why they value it so highly. "To be truely perfect, it must be impossible to improve on an entity's completeness, flawlessness or successfulness. If that's the case, it must be impossible to improve on God's power. That's the very definition of omnipotent." He again confuses perfection with omnipotence. "I simply took the most relevant definition of perfection and built a case on that. That's no grounds for criticism." The definition Pro is using is not even the "primary" definiton; but a secondary one. Most relevant? How does a secondary definition become the most relevant? Mose relevant to suiting Pro's argument, but not to objective reasoning and rational thought. "2. God can have his cake and eat it too ...God cannot limit itself to being a squirrel because that would go against the nature of perfection (unless this particular squirrel was perfect and therefore could in fact refute the argument). It would be better for God to not self-limit and therefore a perfect entity would not give up its perfection. But, as the paradox states, by being perfect God is imperfect." Says who it would be better for God not to become a squirrel? What does "better" mean? How do we know when something is better or worse? It all depends on the situation. For example, it is better not to jump into a river when the current is too strong and filled with debris; it is better to jump into a river and swim across than to get caught by that maniac with the cutlass chasing you, after all, he can't swim. If becoming a squirrel suited God's purpose and helps bring it to fulfillment, this makes becoming a squirrel "better" than to not become one. After all, God decides the standards of good and bad, not Pro. A thinf being "better" has nothing to do with its perfection. A perfect killer is no better than a loving but imperfect philantrophist. 3. Arise, Sun! Pro then argues that the sun has no free will and is thus not a good example; is he one? I know that Pro will reply in the next round. Because I know this means I predestined (forced) him to reply? No. Same goes with God. "To be free to make a choice is to not be forced. It requires that both options are possible. However, if God can know that one of the options is not possible, because it does not happen, then in fact the will was not free at all." My knowing that you will reply in the next round does not mean you didn't have a choice; you can choose not to reply. God merely "sees" which choice you will make, and he also saw that you had the choice before you, as well as all the limping you did on both options before deciding! So his knowing what choice you will make doesn't prove you had no options. God sees in the future I offer you an apple, and orange, and a banana, and tell you to pick one. He sees which one you pick. So he saw that you had 3 choices, and when it happens, God knowing which choice you will make doesn't prove that I never offered you those 3 options. You used a chess game to raise a nice question. If God told us what we will do, would that remove our choice? No, it wouldn't! It only means that God knows us better than we know ourselves. And even when we think we will do A in a given situation, God already knows that even given multiple choices, we will chose B. This is why even while Peter claimed he'd never abandon Jesus, Jesus could tell him he'd do it 3 times. I already know that you will reply to my argument. So have I predestined you to reply? No, my knowing which choice you'll make doesn't force your hand. You can still choose not to reply and forfeit. It's like that with God. I look forward to the next round.