God of slaves.

In debt to god: some problems Pro says that humans are in debt to god. To be in debt means that we are obliged to "pay" god in exchange for something he has already given us. This is a confusing idea, and I hope Pro will be able to clarify a bit in the next round.Firstly, the idea that we can somehow pay back god for our existence. What could we possibly do, even over years, that could equal the value of being created? We couldn't create god in return.Which leads to the second point, which is what could we give god that has any value at all to him? If he is capable of creating us, and the universe, what could we do in exchange and indeed, why would he need anything from us?Sometimes debt implies we are repaying the efforts or expenses of the other party rather than the value we received. But did god go to much effort to create us? Was it easy or difficult for him? Even if it was difficult how could we compensate him for that?Humans enslaved to other humans work to create value for their "owners". I don't really understand how human slaves could create value for god.Authority, punishment and debtGod has universal authority. God can punish us. Neither of these statements implies we owe him a debt.I bought a goldfish from a shop and put it in a tank. I went to some effort with plants and ornaments to enhance the fish's swimming experience. I feed it every day and I clean it out fortnightly. I "created" the fish's world. Is the fish in my debt? Why no. It has no rights, no power , and is no position to negotiate a contract. Therefore, it is under no debt.A debt implies some level of equality - something exchanged for something else. The power differential in the goldfish example is great enough to make this ludicrous. But the power difference between god and human is even greater, unimaginably greater than that. On free choiceEven slaves have choices. For example, a slave can choose to be obliging and try and please the "owner" or she can refuse to work and be punished. She could try to run away, or she could try to make her situation better by informing on the other slaves. None of these choices is particularly attractive, of course, but there they are. However, Pro is not talking about choices but rather about "free choices". This has not been defined, but I assume he means choices in the absence of coercion. Is god coercing us? Not really (and again - to do what exactly? What is it that god wants from us anyway?).For instance, Pro compares god to parents who discipline their children. Children who disobey are sent to their rooms or refused dessert. Repeatedly, until they realize it's in their best interests to do what they're told. Imagine if parents behaved as god does and did not punish their children in these small, immediate ways but rather relied on the threat of some terrible, unimaginable punishment that would come much, much later. Would this be an effective disciplinary technique? Hardly. The children would learn to discount it. They might not even believe in it.In any case, we are not talking about any specific god, but a general creator god. Pro has not demonstrated why a general creator god would necessarily need to condemn some of us to "hell and torture".And even if he did, I don't think if follows that we have a moral obligation to god. At school, a bully makes me had over my lunch money every day - otherwise she beats me up. Because I'm a coward, I either hand that money over or hide in the toilets. Does that mean I have some debt, some moral obligation to her? Of course not. Ability to punish is neither here nor there morally. If we owe something to our parents it's for reasons other than their ability to punish us.personal bias and the truthPro stipulates that "we cannot make conclusions based off our understanding - we must use a reference." For example, he says, an employee can be in debt to a company because it says so in the contract. Where does it say that we are indebted to god? Without reference, Pro's statements about indebtedness are no more than his personal opinion.