LM Classic: Logical-Master vs ToastofDestiny

I apologize for bringing new sources in, but Pro asked me to source some arguments. I was a little over halfway through the manga Rave Master last round, and thus my sources show Haru at less than full power. The sources this round are a definitive description of his powers. === Haru's Speed === Batman may be able to dodge gunfire in the sense that he can jump out of the way. Haru remains within the gunfire's path, dodging sprays of bullets. Spidey could pull this off, agreed, but Batman's Olympian agility may have some trouble. === Warp Snipe === After doing some digging, I've uncovered a video of Sora warp-sniping. This ability is used only over short distances. Also note that the lasers are clearly moving at lower than FTL speeds. Sora is standing still at certain points, and lasers still take time to hit him. These 'lasers' are clearly not lasers as we would define them, as they are moving at subliminal speeds. Warp snipe comes in at around 5:20. http://www.youtube.com... === Sora === In the videos of Sora fighting Hercules, Sora barely moves when being punched with no guard up. He's preparing for an attack when he himself is attacked. If he isn't sailing several football fields in distance, he isn't being punched at full strength. As for Sora's winning being part of the story, all that tells us is that he's a better warrior than Hercules. I didn't want judges to be influenced by the fact that the player in the video almost had a perfect victory. As for the videos with the Titans, the Ice Titan just fires icicles and other ice based attacks, which wouldn't knock Sora back very far. The Rock Titan's few direct hits send Sora flying back to the ground. He occasionally recovers from these hits by bouncing on the Titan itself. Sora is taken out of the equation in that I don't have to worry about him. There's no strawman here, Pro misunderstands my argument. If he approaches my team, he's blinded, making him slow down. I can hit him there. I'm saying that if Sora is concentrating on moving fast enough to avoid Jean, and he can't attack my team, I don't have to worry about him. He's in the battle, but out of the equation. === Battle Strategy === @ Batman's willpower Batman's willpower doesn't stop him from getting injured. He still gets injured. In the following pages, Haru literally gets every bone in his body broken, but still gets up. http://www.onemanga.com... , and http://www.onemanga.com... show us that he's still injured. If Jean crushes Batman's heart or brain, NO amount of willpower would save him. He's just a human with strength, smarts and willpower. Not indestructibility. If any of Pro's characters lost vital organs, they'd be dead, plain and simple. @ Superman's punch If Superman used every ounce of his strength, he'd punch straight through Batman. No human body can hold up against that much force. @ Amazo duplicating through force sight If Northstar or Haru used their light abilities, Amazo wouldn't be able to see my team. @ Force speed quickening the mind. Please read the entire section 'behind the scenes' on the force speed article: http://starwars.wikia.com... . Note that the games are inconsistent when it comes to force speed's abilities. In Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II Force Speed just alters sprint speed. Pro can't cherry-pick the one game that gives him these abilities. The source says (in one game), "[Force speed}...altered the Jedi's perception of time". It didn't quicken his thinking, but acted similarly to an adrenaline burst, making events seem to slow down. Jean Grey knows she's being hunted, so she'd be experiencing this same kind of brain rush. "3) The ship was attempting to move away. Doesn't explain relevance. Fiction displays lightpspeed movement all the time. Watch Superman, DBZ, Justice League, Star Trek, etc..." I don't understand this point. I think Pro tried to address the wrong argument. @Light-speed movement When fiction displays light-speed movement, it always shows it to be light-speed. When ships warp in Star Wars, you can see the warping of space. In DBZ, characters have double images from their superluminal travel. When the Flash runs really fast, he leaves a blur. When Sora evades 'lasers' he moves normally, not even sprinting. @ "4) Force (life within all universe) > mer psychic powers." These aren't mere psychic powers. She is one of the most powerful psychics in the Marvel universe. Pro attempts to dazzle you with the Force's significance. Don't be fooled by him. Jean Grey is not to be messed with. === My Further Strategies === 6) (crushing organs) If Revan's heart was crushed, he's dead. Ditto for Amazo, who inherits people's weaknesses. 7) It makes it harder for Sora. As long as vital areas are covered, Jean is fine. Besides, Sora isn't even getting close thanks to Million Suns/Northstar. 8) Musica opens his eyes a page later because Haru instructed him to shield his eyes. After blinding the enemy with Suns, Haru switched back to Eisenmeteor so that his friends could see when they ran away. Look closely at the top panel two pages later: http://www.onemanga.com... , and you'll see Haru with his sword sheathed. 9) Haru can cut magic with Runesave. Magic is useless here. After finishing the manga, I can demonstrate what a full-powered Melforce is equal to. http://www.onemanga.com... , Lucia, using a sword weaker than Haru's final sword, demolishes an entire tower. Melforce is the entire spiral in the top panel. 10) If the Keyblade hits Runesave, its powers are sealed. Lucia only sealed Runesave because the Ten Commandments is ten swords bound together, not one sword with ten abilities. If Runesave hit Million Suns, it would be sealed, leaving the other swords untouched. 11) It is capable of eternal use, but the instances Haru uses it require him to switch away. The one I source requires his friends to flee, which they can't do blind. 12) Stopga could be severed by Runesave. Million Suns blinds Sora, leaving him open for attack. Amazo's precog tells him something is going to happen, not necessarily what is going to happen. Even then, he's open for a strike from Silfarion (super-speed). 13) He can't block a telekinetic kick from Jean. The only Team Pro member with this weakness is Haru, whose immense will-power would enable him to get up again. He got up after having all his bones broken. A crotch kick wouldn't keep him down. 14) With the refutations I provide, they would. 15) I'll leave this to the judges to decide. But Runesave can cut things without physical form, and things which cannot be cut. 16) If Sora were blinded by light, his guard would drop, and he'd be dead. 1) On rereading this debate, I have found a point I raised in R1, which LM dropped incorrectly, assuming that it required Jean to be alive. I said, "In a battle, Haru can slice through and seal the Force in Revan, as well as his lightsaber." It's right at the end of the round. If Pro attempts to use the Force on Jean, Haru simply slices through it. Northstar can cover them by blinding Pro. Haru can see in these bright lights, as evidenced by his ability to see through Million Suns. Jean can therefore survive long enough to subdue Amazo and Revan. Spidey and Batman would follow soon. My team then plays cat and mouse with Sora with Million Suns and Northstar's light. 2) It seems Pro wasn't totally honest about Warp Snipe's abilities (such as its range). In light of this, as well as the fact that at 2:20 in the video, Sora stands still as lasers move past him (clearly slower than light), shows us that his speed was greatly exaggerated. 3) Kamikaze tactics would work for Jean. She just has to break someone's heart. Thank you, LM, for this terrific debate, and thank you, judges for (hopefully), making it through over 50,000 characters of argument. Vote Toast!