'once saved always saved' v 'never saved to begin with' is too uncertain. only God knows

"you gave an example of someone falling away who was never christian to begin with." -I don't know what you are referring to... "but theyre's also people who fall away cause they were good but then became bad. ... a chrisitan can lose his standing." -Christians sin everyday just like everyone else. However, a true Christian will not continue in his sin (think it is okay) 1 John 3:9: No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God"s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. -Also, if we are truly saved (have the Holy Spirit within us) then we know this: Philippians 1:6 (New International Version): 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. In other words...if we are truly saved, God will NOT stop. He continues His work within us until the day we die. "1 John 5:11-17 "If you see a Christian brother or sister sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it. All wicked actions are sin, but not every sin leads to death." -You are taking this verse out context. -this means that some sins (example: murder) God may put you to death. (lead to death) example is of David's son when he killed Baethsheba's husband. He was of course still saved. He confessed (like a lot, basically the Psalms) and was forgiven. "i also gave the example of the word taking root in someone but then they fell away cause they were in bad soil. " -this example doesn't do anything for you! They were never a Christian. -You gave it to me yourself: 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. -This is a true Christian: "But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."" " i could go on and on with verses that show losing your standing." -I'm sure you could...but the examples you would give are not accurate. NOWHERE in the Bible is there one of a True Christian losing their salvation. -I'm assuming standing=salvation...since that's what you have been arguing. -Christians (and true Christians by that) can definitely go astray but never to the point where they lose their place in the Book of life. It can never be "blotted or erased" "with hitler, or that man who seemed zeolous for God but then turned into an atheist, we don't know their heart. we can see that they are probably nt in favor with God. " -You haven't given any evidence at all for this...this is kinda just a random opinion I have never heard. -Hitler was originally Catholic I believe. -Christians wouldn't consider it okay to kill people (especially if they are God's chosen people) "but to sin means to intentionally, do, what you know, is wrong." -Yep. Sin: transgression of theological principles: an act, thought, or way of behaving that goes against the law or teachings of a religion, especially when the person who commits it is aware of this " these guys may be following their conscious and we can't judge, or even characterize. only God can." -This is a completely off the topic new debate... -We can judge. We are called to do so: 1 Corinthians 5:12 "For what have I to do with judging outsiders[meaning people not in the church (non Christians)]? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?" " plus forr a lot of average joes christian what can we conclude? sme might have a better heart than a lot of christians but they might not. how do we know if they were never saved to begin with o whether they saved all alrong?" conside that evenchristians struggle with say masturabation, sex before marriage, anger problems, hatred, drunkenness, marital infidelity..... christians make mistakes, but so do people who pose as christians but were never christian to begin with. -I've already established that everyone sins (including Christians)...so... -We are also all on our own road/path, meaning that we learn things differently. Depending on what God has in store for our lives. -We are not all as mature spiritually as everyone else. Ex: Solomon and his son :it's not our plance to know a person's heart." -What does that even mean?...we don't know someone's heart. It is impossible. Like I have established: Christians sin just like everybody else...but they understand it is not pleasing to the Lord so they try to stop. (struggle with it...and hopefully eventually conquer it) once God saves someone, they are ALWAYS saved.