God Does Exist

Thank you for taking this debate. Let me begin by amending some of your definitions: Deity: one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful (I would add to this definition, "who is responsible for the creation of the cosmos.) Cosmos: An ordered, harmonious whole (I would define the cosmos as such: everything existing in the natural realm, including space and time itself.) I hope that these two defintions are fine with you. Now, concerning your arguments against a Deity: You claim that you may use my statement "What methods He/She/It used is irrelevant in this debate" for your own argument (but, thankfully, state that you will not) in this debate. I would venture to say that you, arguing from a natural self-creation standpoint, cannot. The reason for this is simple. If a Deity created the cosmos (all matter, space, and time), this would mean that He (for brevity I will use this pronoun) would have existed outside of this natural realm. He would be, in effect, SUPERnatural. As a supernatural Being, He would be able to create, manipulate, and even fully destroy within this realm, as He is the Maker. For example, the creators of a virtual world (Star Wars: Old Republic, World of Warcraft, City of Heroes, etc.) are omnipotent (or at least nearly so) within that realm. Another force may be able to change it (a hacker, for example), but it would have to be an outside force; one that lives in the "real world". An avatar, fully within the "creation" could not fundamentally change this realm without the creators' permission/intent. So we can conclude that, if there is a Deity, He would have to live outside of the natural realm. This would allow Him to create the cosmos in various ways, even (or, especially) ones that are unimaginable to us. You, arguing from the standpoint of nature creating itself, have the burden of proof on you, as you must explain how it can create itself. This is something that has never been observed in nature. While we see entities in nature affecting each other, and even things made by those in the cosmos, nothing has ever been made by "its own hands". You mention that "The Big Bang could have created itself, for instance, been a white hole from another dimension (that could have always been or created itself)." This does not explain how that other dimension started, or how and where the energy for such an event was able to shift from one dimension to another, or where that energy even came to be. Matter "may" (and that is a slight chance) be eternally there, but how can you explain perpetual energy in the face of entropy? As for your second point, please elaborate on your position. As for my proof that a Deity created the cosmos, I already stated my proof (see the first major paragraph in this round). As for how this Deity came into existence, I would stipulate that a Deity who creates time, space, and matter is not constrained by His own creation. The problem of "who made God" is not unique in my position, as is evidenced in my arguments in the preceding paragraphs. In ANY theory of origins there will always be the question of "who created THAT then?" It is the classical man painting himself in a picture. He can always go back and paint himself painting a picture of himself painting a picture of himself painting a picture of himself...etc. The only difference is that I can state that this Deity created time, space and matter, so He must exist outside of them and is then not affected by them (especially time). He has always existed oustide of nature. This supernatural realm, one can only conclude, has its own laws. I would like to see a definite theory on how something can create itself.