Calvinism

I would like to say I thoroughly enjoyed this debate, and the honesty of my opponent. Let me conclude with my rebuttals first. My opponent uses Matthew 7:21 to prove Romans 10:13 is conditional, but that is not a good verse to use. First off, the people in Matthew 7:21 were trusting in their works, not Christ alone. Notice they said, "Have we not prophesied in thy name? and cast out devils? and in thy name DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS?" These people went to Hell because they were trusting in their works, instead of Christ. Romans 10:13 says "WHOSOEVER" and the last I checked, THAT INCLUDES EVERYBODY. Concerning Lazarus, there is a world of difference between physical life and spiritual life. Yes a dead man(physically) cannot choose life, but for that matter, he can't choose evil, either. In fact, he can't choose anything at all. A spiritual man thats "dead in trespasses and sins" can still choose to do good or evil. Even Jesus Christ said that the unregenerate do good, for Luke 6:33 says, "And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for SINNERS ALSO DO EVEN THE SAME." Your analogy between physical and spiritual life does not fit perfectly, which is a problem when trying to compare the two. I do believe God allows sin. But there is a vast difference between forcing someone to sin, and just allowing it to happen. Your claiming God forced Adam to sin. That's like saying that when a teenager is offered drugs, God is there forcing him to take drugs. Concerning Pharaoh, God did not harden his heart until AFTER he rejected God's words in Exodus 5:1-9. I believe a fellow can sin so much, he is never bothered by his sin again, but notice he was bothered by them at one time-meaning his conscience. Pharaoh did have the free will to let the Jews go, for once his son died, he CHOOSE to let the Jews go(Exodus 12:31). If God had hardened his heart to the point where Pharaoh just kept sinning, having his son die wouldn't have bothered him at all. Now concerning Adam's test, my opponent claims God doesn't test us. Really? How about when God told Abraham to offer up Issac as a sacrifice? Wasn't that a test of Abraham's faith? How about when Moses and David and Paul despaired of life in their journey's, wasn't God testing them? Paul said he was "pressed out of measure"(2 Cor. 1:8). Wasn't that a test? No, my friend, the Bible makes it plain that God does indeed test people, while knowing the outcome, so He is omnisicient. My opponent is wrong. ALL MEANS ALL. That is the root of the problem with Calvinism. When the Bible clearly says "all" the Calvinist always has to INTERPRET what that means. I trust in what it SAYS, not how I interpret it. Further John 12:32 states how he will "draw all men unto himself." It says, "And I, IF I BE LIFTED UP, will draw all men unto me." As long as Christ is lifted up, no one will go to Hell. But Christ has not been lifted up everywhere, so people still go to Hell. Again, the people in Matthew 7:21 never trusted Christ when He was lifted up, they trusted their works. My opponent is right that we need the context to determine what "all" means. And Christ was talking about the world in John 12 verse 31 which leads to verse 32. Further, if He wasn't talking about ALL MEN, then pray tell, what ALL MEN was he talking about? Don't say the "elect" because then the "elect" is all men, my friend. Concerning Ephesians 1:13, it says that you believe FIRST, then get saved. It DOES NOT say, God regenerates you, then you believe. Concerning 1 Tim. 2:4, again, my opponent has INTERPRETED it to MEAN ALL TYPES OF MEN. But if so, why doesn't it just say that? 1 John 2:2 does say,"the whole world." How do you interpret that to mean something else? I take the Bible by what it says, not what someone interprets it to mean. Now, I do believe that saved people do sin. Don't assume you know something until your sure of it, Con. But I don't remember any saved person IN THE BIBLE Killing someone over doctrine. Further saved people don't sin unless their backslidden, and its strange seeing a SAVED person get backslidden over hearing the "false doctrine of Servetus." How do you get backslidden by just hearing different doctrine THAT CALVIN DISAGREED WITH ALREADY! Tell me how that's possible Con. Here is Some Food For Thought Let me conclude with this poem: O Horrible Decree Ah! Gentle, gracious Dove, And art thou grieved in me, That sinners should restrain thy love, And say, "It is not free: It is not free for all: The most, thou passest by, And mockest with a fruitless call Whom thou hast doomed to die." They think thee not sincere In giving each his day, " Thou only draw'st the sinner near To cast him quite away, To aggravate his sin, His sure damnation seal: Thou show'st him heaven, and say'st, go in And thrusts him into hell." O HORRIBLE DECREE Worthy of whence it came! Forgive their hellish blasphemy Who charge it on the Lamb: Whose pity him inclined To leave his throne above, The friend, and Saviour of mankind, The God of grace, and love. O gracious, loving Lord, I feel thy bowels yearn; For those who slight the gospel word I share in thy concern: How art thou grieved to be By ransomed worms withstood! How dost thou bleed afresh to see Them trample on thy blood! To limit thee they dare, Blaspheme thee to thy face, Deny their fellow-worms a share In thy redeeming grace: All for their own they take, Thy righteousness engross, Of none effect to most they make The merits of thy cross. Sinners, abhor the fiend: His other gospel hear— "The God of truth did not intend The thing his words declare, He offers grace to all, Which most cannot embrace, Mocked with an ineffectual call And insufficient grace. "The righteous God consigned Them over to their doom, And sent the Saviour of mankind To damn them from the womb; To damn for falling short, "Of what they could not do, For not believing the report Of that which was not true. "The God of love passed by The most of those that fell, Ordained poor reprobates to die, And forced them into hell." "He did not do the deed" (Some have more mildly raved) "He did not damn them—but decreed They never should be saved. "He did not them bereave Of life, or stop their breath, His grace he only would not give, And starved their souls to death." Satanic sophistry! But still, all-gracious God, They charge the sinner's death on thee, Who bought'st him with thy blood. They think with shrieks and cries To please the Lord of hosts, And offer thee, in sacrifice Millions of slaughtered ghosts: With newborn babes they fill The dire infernal shade, "For such," they say, "was thy great will, Before the world was made." How long, O God, how long Shall Satan's rage proceed! Wilt thou not soon avenge the wrong, And crush the serpent's head? Surely thou shalt at last Bruise him beneath our feet: The devil and his doctrine cast Into the burning pit. Arise, O God, arise, Thy glorious truth maintain, Hold forth the bloody sacrifice, For every sinner slain! Defend thy mercy's cause, Thy grace divinely free, Lift up the standard of thy cross, Draw all men unto thee. O vindicate thy grace, Which every soul may prove, Us in thy arms of love embrace, Of everlasting love. Give the pure gospel word, Thy preachers multiply, Let all confess their common Lord, And dare for him to die. My life I here present, My heart's last drop of blood, O let it all be freely spent In proof that thou art good, Art good to all that breathe, Who all may pardon have: Thou willest not the sinner's death, But all the world wouldst save. O take me at my word, But arm me with thy power, Then call me forth to suffer, Lord, To meet the fiery hour: In death will I proclaim That all may hear thy call, And clap my hands amidst the flame, And shout,—HE DIED FOR ALL -Charles Wesley