what one must believe to be saved is not clear... or at least is taught sufficiently in proper terms

"so while you purport to make it easy by giving those tenants, you're not making easy cause those words are loaded to mean some specific things. so you really have to break out a list of things that must be believed." No, not just believed. Done. The list I gave is fairly simple and really not open to other interpretation. Other factions may add on to what I've just said, but no faction will ever say "oh no, you don't need that to get into heaven". "so, it's not clear if all you say is those words you initially said." That's all I say, that's all it means, that's all that needs to be said. I think you're just overcomplicating things when it's actually very simple. You keep saying that those tenets I listed are vague or open to interpretation, but all you are really doing is saying that you are confused. The fact that you are confused does not mean what I say is unclear. Perhaps the problem is a misunderstanding on your end. "also... many new christians are not saved because they may have the feeling of it etc or believe one thing like he's God, but they don't belief the delineated explanation that you said yet. this is contrary to what most christians would believe, not sure about you i sppose... ie that they'd be damend if they believed in jesus albeit not completely." The fact is, they aren't. Christianity isn't a one step process, it's a lifelong commitment, a lifestyle. No Christian who knows what he is talking about would suggest otherwise. It is not contrary at all. If you spent some more time citing outside sources, then I might be able to explain, but again, all you are doing is expressing your own confusion. This is not an argument that Christianity is vague or unclear. It just shows that you don't understand it. "also, you said the "confess with your mouth" verse isn't too vague. all you came back with was "we need to streamline the process". how can you streamline it such that someone hears that verse and things they saved... actually isn't saved because you didn't expand on the full meaning of the verse, and the context of the verse wiht other ones?" I understand what you are asking. Scripture is not the end-all be-all for Christians. Especially not when they serve a different purpose. The "confess with your mouth" thing has an alternate purpose, which was a fast-route simple method of spreading the faith. A quickie ritual, if you will. What matters is that you truly believe in your heart that Jesus is lord. Even fundamentalists will note this because Jesus preaches against dishonesty as well. You certainly wouldn't say anything you don't mean, and in that case, a fundamentalist would agree with me. "basically... to make a little clarifcation... the absolute minimum is not being described properly. the minimum you're saying is not a minimum but a cursory overlook of a bunch of ideas. (i'm not saying the minimum to get by... such taht you're waffling your way into heaven "i got to do the minimum to get by"... i'm saying the theological minimum needed)" I (And I believe, many Christians) find it ridiculous that you are applying the concept of "minimum requirements" towards heaven. However, if you must use that term, the minimum would be those tenets I listed. You argue that what I gave was a "cursory overlook of a bunch of ideas" that's because heaven isn't a strip joint where you have to be 21 and order 2 drinks to get in. Those three things I stated were very clear cut and precise on how to live a good life, be a good Christian, and go to heaven. I have no idea why you think it is so complicated and you haven't offered any argument or evidence whatsoever to show that the confusion is on my side. I'm an atheist and even "I" have no trouble understanding it.