Selflessness does not Exist

Continued Rebuttals: "This is a perfectly valid definition, though I feel the need to emphasize how this demonstrates that morality itself is not objective, because it inherently relies upon subjective terms like "right and wrong" or good and bad"." I wasn't suggesting that morality itself was objective, but that we had an objective definition to work with. "Even if no-one would have faulted Autrey for not helping the man, he would have faulted himself. Such is the way morality works on an individual. It's possible he might have even regretted it for the rest of his life." Since there are no repercussions of failing to be selfless, Pro's previous comments on punishment don't apply. He wouldn't face backlash nor punishment because being selfless is usually going beyond what is required of oneself. He may or may not feel regret if he had not acted the way he did, but we can weigh the options. The only negativity he may have felt from not acting would be of regret, and the negativity of injury, death, and lack of positivity. Pro suggests that because he chose to eliminate the negativity of regret by acting, that it was in fact selfish. Really, Autry chose the option with more possibility of negativity, thus it couldn't be selfish. "Not really, though I see the confusion, since I wasn't nearly clear enough. Sorry about that. Even though it was a poor objective choice when analyzed from the outside as we are doing now, it was still the best subjective choice by Autrey in regard to his emotions and logic at the time. Few are the people who objectively optimize their emotions well, but that doesn't mean we aren't all trying to do so." It was an objectively poor choice as we both agree, which provides the disregarding of ones interest. The subjective was a good choice to fulfill his personal emotions as you say. What decides whether it as selfless is what we're his emotions and motivations for jumping front of the train? Was it to save the man? Yes. Could it have been because he wanted to fulfill his desire for self esteem and praise? Possibly, but not extremely likely I believe. The true core motive was to save the man. "Something is defined as the right thing to do because it benefits society as a whole. People are willing to help further society as a whole because they know that doing so will indirectly help them as well, as well as the aforementioned emotional response to contributing." Defining something as right because it benefits society as a whole is partially the definition of right. Not all instances benefit society as a whole. Something right is: "in accordance with what is good, proper, or just: right conduct." [1]. So many times something right will benefit society, but it is not mutual to all instances of something being right. For a person to commit an act that is right in hopes of themselves being benefited is not a likely situation. Since not all instances benefit society "as a whole," not all right acts have the opportunity to benefit a person. Even if an act benefits society as a whole, the net benefit for the person being selfless is astronomically minuscule in terms of themselves gaining something in return. This could be from carrying someone's groceries for them, or to the extreme of placing yourself in front of a train such as Mr. Autrey. "Firstly, my opponent neglected to mention the other half of this equation, the promise of an eternal reward. Secondly, he still does not seem to realize that "good" and "right" are themselves subjective depending on a specific goal, thereby making any determination of morality necessarily subjective as well. The point I was trying to make about religion was that people often take into consideration this concept of an eternal afterlife when they attempt to optimize their own emotional state. Infinity is often very persuasive, and can even lead people to take their own life. In the worst cases, it has given rise to religious fanaticism, and ruined countless lives in this reality. For such people, their entire focus is still on selfishly optimizing their emotions, but the promise or threat of infinity prompts them to foolishly disregard their interests in the one reality we all know to exist." In the first paragraph Pro offers that morals and right is subjective. Then in the second paragraph he explains the concept of people being driven by eternal reward and religion to do selfless acts which would inherently make these selfless acts selfish. Pro said it himself though, morals are subjective person to person, and eternal life is not believed by all. Even different religions have different subjective views of each's eternal life. Christianity for example teaches good works do not save you. It is by faith they are saved. So yes, certain groups could act selfishly in hopes for reward, but it is subjective across the board and not applying to all examples. "The definition of selflessness that you presented at the beginning, "having little or no concern for oneself", is fundamentally impossible due to the nature and purpose of emotion. Humans are physically motivated by their emotions, and seek to maximize their experience." Yes, humans are aiming for maximized experience for oneself, but it is fundamentally possible. If you put those emotions aside and act against your "maximization," and act for the benefit of another's, that is fundamentally possible and real. "This is not to say that everyone pursues this goal logically or well. Often, it is even the case that people have zero conscious concern for their own well-being, but to say that they are not still subconsciously and indirectly pursuing their own happiness is naive." So despite one's lack of conscious selfishness, Pro's is offering that it is still selfish, whether they realize this or not. So if the person is acting selfless in their own consciousness and will, then it would be a selfless act they are commiting, no? There is a difference between selflessness and a selfless act. But despite them being the same they can't exists without the other. If a consciously selfless act exists, then selflessness must exist as well. Citations: [1]. http://dictionary.reference.com...