Assuming the Bible is a Book of Rules, it Teaches Predestination

Moving on, I will begin by refuting my opponents arguments. "As many Christians know, things changed after Jesus was sacrificed on the cross. Suddenly a link from earth and heaven was connected. " You are correct in saying that things changed, but the change was that God gave all men access to His throne room through prayer, and confessions no longer had to be done through a priest. Remember, the veil in the Holy of Holies, when it was torn down the middle? The significance of this was that being in the very presence of God Himself was no longer limited to once a year for the High Priest only, but access was given to every man. The need for blood sacrifices also changed, but that has nothing to do with the debate at hand. Your argument bases are weak at best. It seems to be some sort of homemade logic, but really nothing more. You say in them that I am not allowed to quote anything but words from the mouth of Jesus, but I will not have that rule put on me, nor will I abide by it. I will use EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING I want out of the Holy, inspired Word of God. All verses I quote will be and must be counted as credible evidence. In your second argument base you claim that "God is love," and must therefore condemn no one to Hell without giving them a choice. Your first major flaw is in you claim that "God is Love. " Read the following verses and tell me again that our God is completely and totally a loving being. Malachi 1:2--- "'I have loved you,' says the LORD. 'But you ask, 'How have you loved us? ' 'Was not Esau Jacob's brother? ' the LORD says. 'Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals. '" Psalms 5:5--- "The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. " Psalms 11:5--- "The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates. " Hosea 9:15--- "'All their evil is at Gilgal; Indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels. '" See what I mean? The LORD does not love all men, nor is He completely a God of love. He is loving, yes, but He is also just, and justice in this case requires hate. You might consider these verses as speaking of the God in the Old Testament, and that things have changed since the death of Christ, but the Bible makes it clear that God never changes. Malachi 3:6--- "I, the Lord, do not change. " Hebrews 6:17--- "In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath," Neither God nor His decrees ever change, therefore He must still feel the same way about sin as He did in the verses I quoted above. Since we have established that God is not solely love, we can move onto the possibility that God does in fact damn some people to Hell. Where do I get this proof? Look to the book of proverbs, for example. Proverbs 16:4--- "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. " God prepares even the wicked for His purpose. Jude 4--- "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. " Long ago men were marked out for condemnation? Yes, it is in fact true. Wait, wait! What am I turning God into! This is horrible, I mean, how could I possibly call God good if He predestines people to hell? The answer is found in Romans. Romans 9:18-24--- "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will? ' On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. " We have nothing to say to God. We are His creations, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING He did, does, or ever will do with us or any other of His creations can possibly be condemned as wrong. We cannot possibly see what He would be doing, but we don't have to. I don't know how God works, all I know is that I am eternally grateful to be one of His elect. In response to your verses: I concede the first 6 point of your argument base one, because we both agree. The point you make in them are obviously backed scripturally. I do not concede the last two points, however. we are not debating the credability of the apostle-written Bible references, we are debating whether or not the Bible teaches predestination, and therefore all scripture count as evidence. Concerning the final point of argument base one, I will counter it shortly. Romans 5 You quote this passage, I will assume, with the idea that i refers to salvation as being a "free gift. " I would have to agree with you, it is a free gift. The difference is that I do not think this gift can be refused, nor can we choose to accept it. It must be forced upon us. Why can we not accept the gift of salvation? Look to a different passage in Romans for the answer. Romans 3:10-18--- "10as it is written: 'None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes. '" There is nobody that seeks after God. None. Accepting the gift of salvation is seeking after God, don't you think? Genesis 6:5--- "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. " Jeremiah 13:23--- "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil. " There is none able to do any kind of good in his sinful, unsaved state, and therefore we are unable to accept a gift of salvation on our own accord. It must be by the divine power of God. Moving on to argument base two. 1. So? who ever said everything God does has to be loving? I already quoted many verses saying God does not love everyong, and is not entirely love, as some would like to believe. That is what I call a watered down, sappy, mushy God. 2. He loves His childer this way, yes. In the verse you quoted is simply say "Us. " Paul is writting to the faithful church of Rome, and is talking to faithful brothers in Christ. 3. In one verse, yes, because He is all loving and compassionate to His children, but not all people. 4. Yes, to love is the greatest commandment, but God is not required to love everyone, after all, we hate Him in our sinful state. 5. I find verses, the following verse from the very mouth of Jesus, that He does not want all people in heaven. (John 12:40) Your verse, however, will take time to respond to, and I do not have the space, so I will wait for the next round. Thanks! Renzzy