Pressuring noobs vs Pressuring experienced players in mafia games.

Thanks, F-16. To be perfectly honest, this debate seems like a no-brainer to me. I'm surprised F-16 continues to challenge the strategy often credited to me of who to pressure on DP1, because it simply makes perfect sense :P The logic behind voting for someone who's style you don't know is pretty straightforward:1) If you aren't familiar with someone's style, it's likely because they're a n00b. In most games, n00bs are not given particularly decent roles because of their inability to use them effectively. As such, if you pressure a n00b and they are forced to reveal a townie role, it's likely not going to be a power role (or the most important role). 2) Because n00bs usually need help, the town can help direct their night actions so they are not wasted or misused. The town benefits from having information, and it's best to know information that pertains to n00bs so we can help and let the more experienced townies play in the shadows. As a most recent example, royalpaladdin attempted to vigilante kill the doctor in Inheritance Mafia, killing another townie in the process. 3) Some mods used to put n00bs in the mafia specifically to help them with strategy. As such, it can be statistically in your favor that a n00b is likely mafia. This may not always be the case, though, so it's not my most important point by any means (I just figured I'd throw it out there since it used to be the case). Now onto the meat and potatoes of my argument...4) The first primary reason to vote for n00bs is that they tend to SUCK at being mafia. I can easily dig up recent examples to prove this; hopefully F-16 doesn't make me (it'd be a waste of time). Thus if you pressure a more experienced player, they may completely trick you (bluesteel, TV, etc.). Their alignment is better left up to investigations or other night action revelations. Meanwhile, it is usually far easier for a n00b mafioso to mess up. For instance, in the Interwebz game CapLlock copy and pasted his role (resulting in a mod kill) - his MAFIA role. In other words, n00bs are more likely to fold under pressure, and not come up with good lies or explanations. This is true even though they may have help from mafia teammates. In the Miscellaneous Game, one mafia n00b PM'd other players (which should also result in a mod kill) rather than ask the mod or his teammates any questions or for help. 5) The second primary reason to pressure a n00b is that there is little to no benefit in pressuring an experienced player. Obviously they are going to participate, so you can rely on your reads and scum tells from them. There is no reason to pressure them because presumably you will pick up on whatever mafia tells you already know about them. In theory, you have figured out patterns that you recognize that can help you deduce whether or not they are mafia. With a n00b, you are completely blind to their playing style and have absolutely no idea what to look for or notice when they participate. 6) The final primary reason is that BECAUSE they are new, their behavior could easily be misconstrued as scummy. For example, royalpaladdin was convinced I was mafia in the Interwebz game even though ALL evidence proved contrary. Because she's a n00b, we can expect that kind of innocent bad playing. Meanwhile, if a more experienced player ignored all logic and evidence and played poorly, that would stick out as scummy. With a n00b, you cannot tell if their style is scummy or legitimately due to their inexperience. Of course any mafia n00b would always claim their n00bish behavior is because they're a n00b and not scum. However there's really no way to tell. That's why being familiar with someone's style is so important. In past games, I have figured out when more experienced players were mafia because their playing was so off. The only way to tell if a n00b's idiocy is legitimate or not is to get a definitive claim from them. As such, it makes a lot of sense to pressure them initially for claims. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So now I'll address my opponent's points...1) F-16 claims that n00bs typically fight when you ask them to claim, whereas more experienced players tend to give up their roles right off the bat. That is not entirely true. I know if I were pressured right away on DP1, I would fight it because it would seem non-sensical to me (for all aforementioned reasons). Meanwhile we have seen many cases of n00bs being forthcoming with their role. This is a shoddy contention because it requires on a lot of maybe's just like my 3rd contention (that's why my last 3 are the strongest). What F-16 is essentially saying is that a n00b is likely to challenge pressure, thereby making themselves look guilty even if they are not. This SUPPORTS my position, because it confirms that n00bs tend to seem guilty unnecessarily. As such, character and role claims are often the best way to confirm them. Further, experienced players already know that this is typical n00bish behavior (hence F-16 bringing it up in the first place) meaning a more experienced player would NOT necessarily accept hesitation as scummy, and again getting a claim is the best possible way to confirm allegiance. This point of my opponent's supports my position.2) Pro writes, "Each player reacts to pressure in a different way and has specific styles of playing. If the person pressuring is aware of the player's style, they would be able to read the player more easily than a player whose style they are unaware of." This is completely non-sensical. F-16 just said that with a player you know, you can read their style thus assess their guilt. However YOU DON'T NEED TO PRESSURE SOMEONE TO SEE THEIR STYLE. Their style can be assessed through what they say, how they say it, how they vote, their activity level, etc. Meanwhile, claims only give you that - claims. Therefore it makes perfect sense to pressure someone for a claim who's style you cannot read. Keep in mind that pressuring someone is not the same as INITIALLY pressuring someone. You might have a reason to pressure an experienced player, say if they seem guilty for Reason X or some night actions placed suspicion on them. F-16 asks, "Why pressure a player whose style you don't know if you are not going to be able to assess their guilt based on their response?" This question practically answers itself. You don't know how to assess their guilt, therefore a claim from them is the best way to determine their likely guilt or innocence. An iffy claim means they would/should be subject to investigation. The better question is why ask for a claim from someone who's style you CAN read? If they seem shady, pressure them. If they don't, leave them be. If they are guilty and you know how to read them, then chances are you will realize that based on how they play - THEN you can pressure them for a claim. Remember, I'm not against pressuring experineced players. I'm arguing that it's more beneficial to INITIALLY pressure a n00b. 3) Pro says, "Overall, pressuring noobs is likely to hurt more than help if they are town by making them look suspicious or revealing more info about their role than is beneficial to reveal in DP1." This is completely not true. If they reveal a lot of information about their role (including a power role), it likely confirms their innocence - not guilt. It also doesn't distinguish how this pertains to n00bs in particular. F-16 is basically saying that someone will look guilty for telling the truth. This seems irrelevant and I completely disagree with this assessment anyway. Anyone with significant pressure should claim and probably be truthful about their role. He writes, "A new player is far more likely than an experienced player to reveal a powerful role," but that's not a problem and certainly not a contention in his favor. 4) I've already responded to C4 -- I'll explain further if need be. Back to ye.