Anti-Trinitarianism

I apologize for my late response I had a family emergency that prevented me from posting my argument and forfeiting the last round. This is your evidence of the Comma Johaneum! Minuscule 61 was the first Greek manuscript discovered to contain the comma and the only reason it is in the Greek text produced by Erasmus.It was so sloppily put into the Greek from Latin that even Erasmus had to clean it up by inserting and supplying the applicable articles to the nouns (There are no definite articles in Latin as there are in Greek) and still it is from 1520! This was a manuscript created in haste to insert the comma into the Greek New Testament. Erasmus' first two editions of the new testament rightfully left this verse absent. The other three are so laughably new that they are really of no consideration. The Other 4 Manuscripts that are of a much earlier date would be of great interest had it been that the Comma Johaneum was actually in the original text and not inserted into the text 61 (produced in 1520) 629 (14th century) 918 (16th century) 2318 (18th century) List of Manuscripts in which the Comma Johaneum was written in the margins of the text much later. 88 (12th century; comma Johanneum added in 16th century) 221 (10th century; comma Johanneum added later) 429 (14th century; comma Johanneum added later. Metzger says that 429 is from the 16th century [Textual Commentary2, 647]) 636 (15th century; comma Johanneum added later. Metzger says that 636 is from the 16th century [Textual Commentary2, 648]) *******YOU SAY*******You say, "Secondly the section of 1 John that is quote is a later addition. It is found in a handful of late manuscripts and in many of those manuscripts it is not found in the text itself but as a marginal note, demonstrating this was some note that eventually got incorporated into the text and hence not original." Your claims are false and unsubstantiated. While it is true that most Greek manuscripts do not contain 1 John 5:7, it should be noted that less than 500 of the more than 5,000 Greek manuscripts even contain 1 John 5, and of these, only 12 are from before the 11th century. In other words, the vast majority of manuscripts which contain 1 John 5 would be considered "late." Old Latin manuscripts which are dated earlier than the majority of Greek manuscripts containing 1 John 5 include: Codex Toletanus (10th century), Codex Complutensis (10th century), Codex Cavensis (9th century), Codex Ulmensis (9th century), Codex Theodulphianus (8th or 9th century), Sangallense MSS 63 and 907 (8th or 9th century), Codex Legionensis (7th century), Frisingensia Fragmenta (7th century), and Codex Speculum (5th century), all of which contain verse 7 as read in the KJV. . The fact that 1 John 5:7 is not found in most Greek manuscripts does not negate its authenticity as this verse is clearly supported by a plethora of early Christian writers and unto the Protestant Reformation. These include (from late to early): ***MY RESPONSE***** The New Testament was not originally written in Latin it was written in Greek and had this verse existed in Greek why do we have no record of a GREEK Church father quoting it? You have even stated that “ How can one coherently reject the doctrine of the Trinity when this verse is so very clear? We know the Word is Jesus from John 1, who created all things and who is God.“ You mean to tell me this verse is never availed to even once by a Greek church father? You can not say it is supported by a plethora of early Christian writers all you can say is your reading it supported by several LATIN writers. This is nothing more than a corrupt reading in the latin that was far too convenient to leave out of the Greek. *****YOU SAY******** Erasmus, Commentary on 1 John 5:7 (Paraphrase on The First Epistle of John, 1520 A.D.) "For the Spirit too is truth just as the Father and the Son are. The truth of all three is one, just as the nature of all three is one. For there are three in heaven who furnish testimony to Christ: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit. *****MY RESPONSE********** Erasumus also did not include it in his first two editions of his Greek New Testament however if he did accept such a verse as authentic its clearly a moot point because we are viewing the evidence from which he based his conclusion namely Manuscipt 61. ********YOU SAY************ Lombard, Second Distinction (Libri Quattuor Sententiarum, 1150 A.D.) "That the Father and the Son, says he, not by confusion of persons, but by Unity of Nature, St. John hath taught us in his Canonical Epistle, saying, 'There are three which bare record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.'" [p. 14] ******MY REPSONSE********** Again his quote means nothing other than a latin version of the spurious verse was available to him a fact that I do not dispute *********YOU SAY********** Jerome, Prologue to the Canonical Epistles (Codex Fuldensis, 546 A.D.)"Just as these are properly understood and so translated faithfully by interpreters into Latin without leaving ambiguity for the readers nor [allowing] the variety of genres to conflict, especially in that text where we read the unity of the trinity is placed in the first letter of John, where much error has occurred at the hands of unfaithful translators contrary to the truth of faith, who have kept just the three words water, blood and spirit in this edition omitting mention of Father, Word and Spirit in which especially the catholic faith is strengthened and the unity of substance of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is attested." *******MY RESPONSE******** Two of the earliest manuscript available of the latin vulgate attest to the fact the the Comma Johaneum was never in Jeromes Vulgate infact the very manuscript in which the prologue of which you quote was attached does not contain it! Jerome who based his Vulgate on the Greek Texts of the day saw it fit to leave the verse absent! *******YOU SAY************* North African Bishops, Council of Carthage (484 A.D.) "And so that we may teach the Holy Spirit to be of one divinity with the Father and the Son still more clearly than the light, here is proof from the testimony of John the evangelist. For he says: There are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.' Surely he does not say 'three separated by a difference in quality' or 'divided by grades which differentiate, so that there is a great distance between them?' No, he says that the 'three are one.'" (http://en.wikipedia.org......) **********MY RESPONSE******* I agree this is an early authentic quote of the Comma Johaneum however these were latin fathers and as I have stated I do not dispute that a comment in the margins of a latin text got incorporated into the body of many of the Vetus Latina Manuscripts. *******YOU SAY****** Priscillian, (Liber Apolegeticus, 385 A.D.) "As John says 'and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh, the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one. . .'" (http://www.oocities.org......) *********MY RESPONSE********** I concur this is an early Quote from a Heretic concerning this LATIN verse. This is in fact the EARLIEST substantiated quote of the text. *****YOU SAY********* Cyprian, On the Unity of the Church (Treatise 1, 250 A.D.) "The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one;' and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one.'" (http://www.newadvent.org......) *****MY RESPONSE***** This can not be cited as evidence for the verse as this does not Quote it. The only parts that are actual quotes of scripture are “I and the father are one” and “ and these three are one” in fact he does not even use the same terms using “son” instead of “the Word”. Many scholars have said this is weak evidence for the Comma. ******YOU SAY***** Regardless of what the above quoted men believed, it is clear that this verse was authentic and to be found in many then extant manuscripts. Your accusation of the spuriousness of 1 John 5:7 is demonstrably false. There is more evidence as to the authenticity of this verse, but for sake of time I have limited myself to what I have given (http://brandplucked.webs.com......) ****MY RESPONSE******No the only thing you demonstrate by these quotes are that some Latins were familiar with this verse. None of the Greek fathers ever quote the Comma Johaneum. The Vetus Latina manuscripts were early but Chaotic and sometimes highly interpretive. This is why Jerome was commissioned by the Pope to make a standard Latin Bible (The Vulgate). Jerome even found this wanting in Greek manuscripts of his day, and hence did not put it in his Vulgate. The Comma Johaneum has it origins in the Vetus Latina manuscripts and hence they were not in the peshitta or peshitto, in the Greek or the later Vulgate and Arabic, Quoted by the Greek fathers, they are clearly isolated to only the Latin tradition. There is a common theme throughout all your evidence and that is this verse has its roots in the Old Latin manuscripts! The fact that the Greek fathers seem to never appeal to the verse and that many of the other language traditions seem ignorant of the verse is also quite remarkable. Perhaps this is why so many bibles translations either omit the verse or simply make it nothing more than a footnote. in the book Codex Montfortianus it is state that the Comma was an unauthorized gloss (pg 61) as it is not contained in the manuscript from whence it was copied! As I am running out of room for this debate I will be make one more brief remark on Matthew 28:19, whether or not it is authentic it simply does not prove the trinity all it demonstrates is there is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost there is nothing in that verse suggesting they are part of a trinity, or that they are co-eternal or of the same substance!