Free will is an illusion.

Ahh, Reading your round response with a smile on my face the whole time - Loving this debate and your counter-arguments! With regards to your answer to my question in the Second Round, you explain that you read a debate held by myself previously, and made the logical conclusion to open this debate with me. I counter by stating that Logic is at its fundamentals, within the same ball park as Anger. Anger is an emotion, caused by external or internal influences ( i.e. External = Bully, Threat, Danger - Internal = Belittlement, self-Loathing, skepticism, confusion, etc.) - These provide an individual with avenues they can go with, while the majority of options that you have to choose from are greatly reduced, mainly to violent or aggressive / Passive or submissive - other, constructive avenues are available - Such as the example provided in the previous round, Talking and resolving the issue. Logic, is the conscious consolidation of information provided to determine the best course of action/outcome. If someone was angry, your claim is that they have to follow certain actions to 'vent' the emotion, barring emotional 'maturity' - Would Logic not be the same, i.e. External or internal influences causing specific outcomes, just more 'mature' because the person thought about it a little longer, and analyzed the information? Because a person has narrowed down their choices logically, that is still free will, just one took time before their reaction - If they were to react with violence because they are angry - that is their choice as well. A wise man who uses logic can still succumb to anger, do they lose their free will simply because an emotion surges? No - just the choices made. It is still the wise man's choice - his choice is to react. ===== You claim that Free will does not exist, as everybody experiences these emotions, and as they have had past experiences that somehow determine their future actions - While I concede again that this is true, that a lot of choices are based from past experiences - it does not remove the fact that the choice to do something else existed - THAT is free will. Someone choosing not to choose is still a choice. You say we cannot change our wants and desires - This is not true. A person in my opinion who has chosen to be gay, has chosen so because they have desires that help fuel the desire to do it - A person can very easily choose not to follow these actions, but those usually follow with negative feelings, such as the sadness one feels when denying your wants, feelings of unfairness, Bitterness or guilt - which is why it is generally not considered. My point is - THE OPTION IS STILL THERE. You might be a "Bum" guy, but develop a relationship with a woman who has no 'junk in the trunk' - one could choose to proceed with the relationship, or to decline that avenue to pursue their own desires/wants. You appear to be claiming that simply due to the fact that we have developed methods; are creatures based upon routine and as a majority - very easy to over stimulate - somehow equating to that we have no free will. We do have free will, these methods (Emotions, past experience, Logic, etc.) are simply tools developed to streamline the process. Desires and attractions are based upon genetic order, You see a woman with a large waist with a large bust - your mind automatically filters the information to 'tag' that type as preference (Bigger waist/bust = increased chance at offspring), which is where ones' "sexuality" bases itself from - The internal recognition that X source is what you want your future offspring to inherit. Men who are physically strong are less likely to be homosexual (Less likely, not impossible) - as they already posses the physical traits that your body knows the opposite sex will attract. Although that does leave the potential attraction over a person who has great mental capacity, their bodies may want that genetic construction details to make your potential prot"g" even better than what they are capable of. Weaker or less aggressive men generally will magnetize themselves to 'stronger' people, either mentally or physically - This can generate to attraction, or the predilection will surface and they will have a choice to try and seduce their potential partner, or be 'friend-zoned' and sit on those feelings. Each have consequences and outcomes from them, it is up to the person to choose what they want to do. To move it away from sexuality, There are other circumstances that help to prove that free will exists - For example, you state that simply because someone has no control over the fact that emotions or desires exist, free will to action is dismissed, as you cannot change it. What about Disabilities, such as traumatic events that cause loss of limbs? Those are circumstances that occur to some people, and they cannot be changed. Most people expect disabled people to not be able to fulfill their dreams, is that what has to happen, if that is the case - what is the Para-Olympics about then - a sick and degraded attempt to appease disabled people? No. It is the celebration that through adversity one can overcome their problems if the choose to. I know we said no citations or sources, but this is something that confirmed externally from myself that Free will exists. It is a 2-3 min Youtube video of disabled athletes who go to a gym and are judged, then completely decimate and amaze those doubters with their amazing skills and fortitude. Alcohol was a very good point, and will be very hard to be discredited - I have experienced this blackout drunk, it is not fun. I have been told the night before hand, I was found wrapped around a tree attempting to find a lizard - don't ask me why, but that is what I was doing. Of the entire night, the singular thing I remember (And same for my other 3 'blackout drunk' nights I have had - which were results of celebrations, like birthdays and the like) - The singular thing I remember is yelling at some women across the road as they were rude to me - My memory of what I could see was very disorientated, blurry and I was not able to focus on what I was doing. I do remember making my decisions though - they may have been poorly thought out and the execution of those decisions were horrendous - I do take responsibility for my actions, and at worst I was a nuisance to the local wildlife - however no matter what my condition was, at that time I made my own rules. The mind is incredibly good at filtering and throwing out junk memories, which is precisely why people forget what they did when blackout drunk - The blurry imagery, balance loss and general incapacitated state that occurs when you drink too much are of no use to anyone, thus is 'deleted' - People not remembering they made the choice does not mean that a choice was not made. I am so happy you brought up the experience point in your last round, Absolutely correct. Similar to Apes, we derive a lot of knowledge from our predecessors - We learn the good, the bad, and the acceptable from those that are around us. Having knowledge and that knowledge being being the prime reason for not testing it does not remove the freedom to do it anyway. I am pretty proud with myself that I have arrayed a broad knowledge that has helped me with my adult life - However in no way can I recall any source for my characteristics. Whilst I do have my own role-models that I greatly respect, None have done what I am now able to do (Apologies if this appears arrogant, I do not think I am special any more than any other human - in that I am 'unique'). I have found it is all to do with perception. When I was younger, I was a 'closet' introvert - I would be loud to my friends and family, but be thinking to myself the entire time and make my own opinions and ideas on whatever it was we were doing. I realized that my brother, who was much more into sports than I was, seemed to be a completely different person to me, even though we came from the same place. Delving into this, I found that this was due, as you said before, to his peers - He was playing cricket for his primary school, but was good enough to go into the senior men's team (He had speed, they had experience so it worked well) - After each game they all gathered, the Men would drink (My father was on the team, so it was supervised) and they talked, joked and bantered with each other - days later my brother would parrot off those sayings to me later, or use what he heard them use on the field to help him win arguments. My thought at that point was sadness, I had no team to teach me to be a better me. I was very sad for a long time (From the ages of 8 to maybe 11) as I thought it was pointless, my only peers were fellow students my age and the cranky old teachers that are resigned to minding us while we did what children do. I then had the stroke of perception, that people only train other people, because that is how they were taught, they know nothing better. It is not a fact that this is the only way it can be done, it is just this is what people have 'practiced' at - i.e. they were taught, used their experience and taught the future generations, which snowballed to where it is now. I started practicing being a better person, because that is what I chose to do, not because mum or dad would scold me, or Teachers would threaten me with detention for not following rules, I did it because I believed in them, people deserve to be safe, to trust and to love! You said you began this argument with me because you thought I was intelligent (Thank you for that btw) but had misconceptions. I believe you to be very much the same - And I certainly wish to debate as many other topics as possible, I believe I can see your thought process, it is very similar to mine - I believe we could teach and learn from each other greatly. I have run out of characters, so will address and expand this in the next round. Bravo! haha