Kylo Ren is the weakest Sith of the 5 main (listed) Sith Lords

Again, this debate was never about who is the strongest fighter, but who are the most powerful Sith lords. And If I am able to prove that Kylo Ren is at least stronger than one other Sith lord, I win this debate. However, I do insist that Kylo Ren is still probably the most powerful Sith lord overall. Summaries: 1) Kylo vs Vader 1) Willpower - Vader struggled to kill Luke and was definitely manipulated by Sidious to join the dark side. Vader also has trouble ignoring his own lightside. In comparison, Ren made a conscientious choice to disavow his family, rebel against Luke, join the darkside, embrace the Vader legacy, and kill his father. Kylo Ren's resistance to Luke and Han's attempts to turn him back is especially telling of his own mental fortitude and commitment to the darkside. And contrary to Con's insistence that Ren might have a lightside (which in Ep 7 is still only an assumption put forth by other characters), Han Solo has remarked that growing up Ren has always had "too much Vader" in him to be a follower of the light. 2) Physical Conditioning - Con seems to have dropped the argument that Kylo Ren is in much greater physical shape than Vader. When Anakin Skywalker became more machine than man, he in fact lost alot of his force powers and midiclorians. As a melee fighter, Vader is also incredibly slow and totally dependant on his suit to breathe. Any damage to his suit is catastrophic, as shown in ROTJ when Luke could tank force lightning but Vader couldn't. In comparison, Ren successfully tanked a bowcaster. 3) Crossguard Lightsaber - when your two lightsaber defeats come from severed hands, a crossguard lightsaber could mean the difference between victory and defeat. Ren has the advantage here. 4) More Successful - Vader lost to Luke, lost the civil war, and inevitably abandoned the darkside. In contrast, Ren successfully demoralized every main character in star wars and sent them into 30 year exiles. Ren also stopped the Jedi from returning (killing Luke's students) and helped prevent a total Rebel Alliance victory over the Empire by playing a role in the rise of the First Order. 2) Kylo vs Sidious Ren's key advantages over Sidious include; 1) Skywalker Ancestry - Kylo Ren is a direct descendent of Luke and Anakin Skywalker. Kathleen Kennedy has confirmed again that the Skywalker family will consist of the most important characters in the star wars universe (1). The star wars writers, therefore, will inevitably continue the tradition of making Skywalkers the strongest force users in the galaxy. 2) Stronger Darkside - Whereas Palpatine is even-headed, cold-hearted, methodical, and calculating in his demeanor and emotions, Kylo Ren is anything but. Ren is fiery, fierce, determined, and most importantly, emotionally charged. And if the way to the darkside truly is about giving into your hate, your rage, and your inner turmoil, then Kylo Ren may just be the Sith Lord with the strongest darkside ever seen in the star wars universe. 3) Kylo vs Dooku Ren's main advantages over Dooku include the same ones as Sidious. 4) Kylo vs Maul 1) More Adept Force User - Ren has demonstrated to be far more proficient with the Force than Maul. Ren can read minds, force sense disturbances, and telepathically torture people. Ren has also demonstrated the unique force ability to stop blaster bolts in flight. Maul would have trouble utilizing the Force in a fight because of his dual-blade lightsaber which requires using both hands. Ren is also a Skywalker and is more naturally strong with the Force. 2) Political Power - Jabba the Hutt shows that you don't have to be a good fighter in order to be a powerful villain in Star Wars. And in terms of political power, Maul is the weakest of any of the sith lords. Maul's only claim to fame is that of a covert operative and assassin under the direct control of Darth Sidious. In comparsion, Kylo Ren is the leader of the Knights of Ren and has personally led several storm trooper raids. Ren is also an important leadership figure in the First Order, where he serves as 2nd in command to Snooke. Other Arguments "Ep 7 clearly states that Kylo is still unfinished with his training, as admitted by Snoke, Kylo's trainer, himself" Con's original claim in R1 was that Kylo was "literally an untrained amateur." Yet Ep 7 suggests that he was trained by Snooke and Luke Skywalker himself. If still unfinished with his training, then it only means that Kylo Ren posses even more force potential. "Doesn't matter. Only one of Kylo's parents have any Force qualities to begin (Leia) with while the other denied the existence of the force in the first place (Solo)." Luke Skywalker has stated to Leia in ROTJ that force is strong with his family and that his sister has that power too. Plus, do you really think writers would ever make the Skywalkers weak? Nobody ever does that to their main characters. "By your own admission you admit that Ren is mentally weak who gives in to anger and frustration very quickly. He is therefore NOT an Olympic Athlete in terms of mental strength like you claim." Kylo Ren made a conscientious choice to embrace the Vader legacy and is the most motivated villian ever seen in Star Wars. He also had the mental fortitude to resist Han Solo's charms. Whereas Kylo Ren is unqiuely obsessed with perfecting the darkside within him and following his passions, he is like an Olympic athlete during training. "I only have to argue that other Sith Lords are at least equal to Kylo in terms of influencing galactic events" Definitely not Maul then. "He got whipped by Rey and was left to die .., that qualifies as a loss" Kylo fought back to back fights after tanking a bowcaster. Han Solo has remarked that the bowcaster is more powerful than any blaster rifle he has ever seen! Rey is also a natural force prodigy and could be another Skywalker. Importantlyy as well, Ren was trying to capture Rey, not kill her. This does not count as a decisive loss.1)http://tinyurl.com...