Predestination

I saw that you were previously engaged in a debate on this topic, and it wanted to challenge you to a debate on the same topic, because it is one that interests me greatly. I have always wanted to debate somebody who is learned in the Bible on this subject, and I finally have the chance! YAY! I am going to enjoy this debate, and I am sure that I will learn how to be a better debtor in the future. I believe that the Bible teaches predestination, and that believing in free will is much like believing in faith by works. Now to my argument. Attempting to organize thoughts... Ok. I think I'm ready. First of all, the Bible teaches total depravity, and I think we can agree on that. From the beginning of the Old Testament to the end of the New Testament we read that man is totally depraved. For example, Genesis 6:5 says that every intent of their hearts were only evil continually. I understand that this was before the flood, but it would be wrong to say that we are better than them today, so that verse does apply. This verse is reinforced by Jeremiah 13:23, which reads: Jeremiah 13:23--- "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil" The Old Testament clearly states the totally depraved state of all men. The New Testament also clearly states that man is totally depraved. In Romans, Paul makes it clear that there is nobody that is righteous. Romans 3:10-12--- "As it is writen, 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; There have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.'" Like I said above, I think that we can agree on the fact that man is totally depraved. Now, however, a question must be asked. Is accepting the gift of God by ones own free will a good work? I think it is, and saying that you, out of your entirely depraved mind, are seeking after and accepting God is ludicrous and contrary to what the scriptures above teach. The scriptures CLEARLY teach that "There is none who seeks after God". Also, if man had the free will to choose God on his own, it would mean that anyone could come and be saved. If this was true, it would nullify what Jesus Himself says in Mark. Mark 4:10-12--- "But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parables. And He said to them, 'To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that 'seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand; lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them.'" These verses make it clear that God did not intend for all to come to Him. Saying that men come to Him by their own free will, however, contradicts God. Now I will defend my position as a predestination. There are many, many verses in the Bible that are evidence for predestination, the most commonly used I think would be Romans 9. I am not going to concentrate on Romans 9, however, but turn to other, more commonly looked over verses, such as the verses in John. In John 6:37, Jesus says that everyone that the Father GIVES Him will come, and proceeds to say in verse 44 that "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him...". In verse 65, He continues, saying that nobody can come to the Him unless it has been granted to them by God. Here we have it from Jesus' own mouth that only those whom the Father calls will be raised up on the last day. King David also understood that it is not by our human power that we are brought into the kingdom of God. In Psalm 65 he shows this by saying: Psalm 65:4--- "Blessed is the man You choose, and cause to approach You, that he may dwell in your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, of Your holy temple." Even in the Old Testament, believers are aware that it is by GRACE ALONE we are saved. Moving back into the New Testament, we see that "grace alone" is also preached here. In Ephesians 2 Paul again makes it clear that it is not by our works that we get into heaven. Ephesians 2:8-10--- "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." I must put emphasis on the phrase "Not by works, so that no one can boast.". If you say "I know I am going to heaven because I accepted Christ as my savior" you are boasting. You are saying that it was by your own free will that you accepted Christ, and you are boasting. SAYING THAT YOU ACCEPTED CHRIST ON YOUR OWN ACCORD IS LIKE SAYING "I WORKED MY WAY INTO HEAVEN". Nowhere in the Bible does it say "it is by works you have been saved", all it says is that you are saved by grace through the faith THAT GOD PUT IN YOU. Now let me ask you a question. Do you believe that unborn babies that die go to hell? I would assume that your answer would be no. How, then, does that agree with your belief in free will? These babies have obviously not had a chance to accept Christ, so how do they fit in? well, you could say that they have not yet had a chance to sin, and therefore are perfect, but "There is no one righteous, no, not one.". Also, the have inherited the sins of Adam, which makes them guilty from the moment of conception. You must conclude, then, that God either allows them into heaven for nothing, taking away from Him the title of a completely just God, or, that He sends them to hell. If God predestined them, however, they would make it into heaven BY GRACE ALONE. The Bible is also clear on the fact that some men are predestined for Gods judgement. This is stsed clearly in Jude. Jude 7--- "For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." All of this may seen quite unfair, seeing that God picks and chooses who He wants to go to heaven, but, as Paul puts it: Romans 9:21--- "Does not the Potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" Predestination does not diminish the love of God, as it would appear, but rather INCREASES it. It does this by showing us that God chose us "...while we were yet sinners..." (Rom. 5:8), deserving nothing but hell, to be with Him in glory BECAUSE HE LOVES US. He chose us, without us doing good works, (like accepting Him on our own accord) without us first loving Him, to be with Him in paradise! What about those God did not choose? They get what we all deserve. God is not obligated to save anyone, but because He loves us, he does save some, and it is amazing that He even does that. "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see!" I will end with a question that I would like you to answer in your argument: Why, as a a believer in free will, do you pray for the salvation of others? Are you not asking God to meddle in their free will? I hope that I have made myself clear without sounding harsh, because it is not my intention at all to be harsh; but rather to be clear and concise. Thanks!