Liberalism seeks to absolve people of personal responsibility

Let me address each of the individual points first, then I'll summarize: ----------------------------------------- YOU: Increased welfare benefits: -So were holding children and people unable to work, responsible for their own being if we dont have increased welfare? Welfare, no matter how much it increases, is not exactly a glamorous lifestyle and you can make way more doing anytihng from working at mcDs to picking trash. Besides that, it mainly goes to families with children and to the edlerly who cant work. ME: We are removing our responsibility to give to charity, support our parents, friends and fellow human beings who need it and placing it with a mandated program administered by the government. Welfare is just one method of decreasing the personal responsibility of the individual and placing it on the government. Do you disagree? ----------------------------------------- YOU: Increased social security benefits: -Saving money isnt an option for many. If we dont give social security benefits, most people will be either working until the day they die, or, if they cant work before that day, live on the streets. ME: Why isn't saving an option for many? People are already paying increased taxes for social security, why not let them keep more of thier money and let them save it responsibly? ----------------------------------------- YOU: Universal health care: -Stunt car driving? what in gods name are you talking about. Government sponsered health care is for the UNINSURED not the evil kennivels. Refer to the other two points above ME: Those advocating universal health care often cite European health care as an example. The ultimate goal of Liberals everywhere is universal health care for everyone, not just the uninsured. ----------------------------------------- YOU: Universal education: -Of course, less education = smarter kids. Im sure the family that works 40 hours a week for minimum wage has plenty of time to come home and teach their children how to read write and do math. What world are you living in? ME: People pay taxes and business pay taxes, a large portion of which goes to education. The more taxes that businesses pay, the less they are able to pay thier employess, and the more taxes people pay the less money they have to spend so what they do get paid goes less far. Personally I pay almost 30% out of my paycheck for income tax alone. Imagine if everyone instantly began making 30% more than they do now? Do you think paying for education would be a problem? (and we're just talking about income taxes). All of this aside, you seem to be conceding my point that universal education decreases personal responsibility. ----------------------------------------- YOU: Pro-abortion: -First of all, what the hell is "pro-abortion"? Do you think liberals go out, get pregnant and have an abortion, jsut for fun? I tihnk you mean "pro-choice" which only says abortion isnt legally impeedable by the federal government. Im not personally a fan of the act and if i were ever involved in a situation where abortion was an issue with a girlfriend/wife/sister/friend ect., i would definatley be opposed, but i cant push that opinion of federal law. No body has that right, (in my opinion). ME: By default a woman doesn't have a choice except not to get pregnant. The benefits of medical technology and trained doctors ALLOWS the woman to have an abortion. How can something that is a privledge and not a right NOT be legally impeedable by the federal government? At the very least this should be left up to the states to decide. This is beside the point though. I do think that people go out and have sex for the fun of it, and when they realize they got pregnant due to thier own irresponsibility, they get an abortion. Regardless of how you feel, the end result is less responsibility for the individual. ----------------------------------------- YOU: Anti-death penalty: -So instead of making the legal system take charge and try and rehabilitate and isolate, its more "responsible" to just kill the guy and move on? ME: So now the responsibility for the murderous behavior isn't on the murderer, it's on the government to rehabilitate/isolate/take care of him? You're proving my point. ----------------------------------------- YOU: Corperate Morality -Keeps Corperations accountable for the wages of their employees, thier effect of the enviornment and monopolization of the market. ME: As opposed to the people forming unions and taking pre-emptive action (such as leaving the corporation or boycotting thier product or service) to facilitate this change on thier own? ----------------------------------------- YOU: Anti-War -Makes govt responsible rather than our brave soldiers. ME: Are you claiming anti-war as a key Liberal position? Can you clarify? Do you mean anti-war as in pacifist or anti-war as in you don't like war? (who does?) War and the protection of the people is one of the governments core responsibilities, and is the primary reason behind it's creation, and hence the responsibility falls to the government and the military (including the soldiers) both. It is the people's responsibility to elect responsible politicians with a focus on protecting our country. Not going to war requires far less responsibility than making the decision to go to war. ----------------------------------------- YOU: Your argument is completely ridiculous ME: So far you've pretty much conceded my position on all these issues. Your argument seems to be with my stance on each of these issues, not with the fact that the liberal positions all decrease the personal responsibility of the individual. ----------------------------------------- I think your arguments are all a little misplaced. The main question of the debate is whether or not "Liberalism seeks to absolve people of personal responsibility", and I explained how the liberal stance on each key liberal issue decreases the personal responsibility of the individual. You may disagree with my stance on these issues but I don't see how you can disagree with the topic of this debate. As a matter of fact, you seem indirectly admit it in your arguments. Who's to say that decreasing personal responsibility is bad in the first place? If what I'm saying is true and this is what Liberalism seeks, and you're a Liberal, be proud of your position and explain why reducing personal responsibility is a good thing. Your arguments seem very kneejerk.