A Christian cannot lose salvation

Your third argument is so important that I feel the need to address it first. It seems to underpin all of your claims and rebuttals. 7 ========== Predestined? What does "predestination" mean to you? How does it interact with free will? How does it interact with the 4 Characteristics of TRUE CHRISTIANS? I expect that you define predestined = "our will, Faith, Decisions, Actions, Etc. , Have zero influence over our personal salvation because God decided whether or not to save us before He created the world. " Please confirm. This reading doesn't prove your thesis, Rather it nullifies it. Who cares whether a Christian can "lose" salvation, When he can never "gain" it? Who cares whether a "Christian" can lose salvation, When God never says that all the people he predestined are Christians? Nevertheless, Even if this is your definition of "predestined" (it is not mine), And even if you dismiss my two questions, Ephesians 1 still DOES NOT SUPPORT your thesis. Paul is speaking about 2 distinct groups of people: Ephesians 1:4-5 & 11-12 (notice the repeated use of "we"): "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ. . . In him we were also chosen, Having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, In order that we, Who were the first to put our hope in Christ, Might be for the praise of his glory. " Ephesians 1:13-14 (notice the repeated use of "you"): "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, The gospel of your salvation. When you believed, You were marked in him with a seal, The promised Holy Spirit, Who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. " Speaking of his own group first Paul says, We were predestined (vv. 4, 5, 11, 12). Then to the Ephesians, He says: you guys were added later when you believed (v. 13). In other words, The Ephesians were not predestined from before the foundation of the world--they were "included" around 58 AD. Here are the two groups in the normal format: --- Category E --- v. 11 describes predestined Christians (some surmise it's made up exclusively of Jewish converts, Like the 12 Apostles and Paul). --- Category F --- v. 13 describes non-predestined Christians. Notice the Ephesians are Gentiles not Jews. These actually do "gain" salvation. In AD 40 they weren't saved (by any definition); in AD 62 they had become TRUE CHRISTIANS. Therefore, "predestination" only applies to some Christians--not all. 4 ========== Old Testament Sources All these verses are promises made to the Jews. You will need to provide support to any claims that they are applicable to Gentiles (most Christians today). --- Category E --- Messianic Jews or Jewish Christians, The ones who have the "everlasting covenant" and who God "predestined" to follow Him. 5 ========== Salvation is an irrevocable gift, But when is it given? Apparently as a back-up to predestination, You place the timing of salvation at being "born again. " But, John 3:3 says that being born again is required for "seeing the Kingdom of God" (= saved). The common translations of the Greek "ean" are: unless (50%), Except (32%), And without (7%). Born again does not equal seeing, So you have not shown born again = saved. Therefore, Your Round 4 arguments are disproven everywhere you wrote, "if what I said above is true" (3 places). Your rebuttals of Matt 24:13 and Category D include A = A (which is inadmissible), Your proposed timing of salvation (which John 3:3 disproves), And "faith v. Works. " I'm not sure how faith v. Works applies. I have not advocated for reliance on any works. The enduring that is required is standing firm in faith. The plain reading of Matt 24 is: as opposed to these other guys who TURN FROM THE FAITH, The one who ENDURES IN FAITH TO THE END will get salvation. Your rebuttal of 2 Tim 4:8 is to say it "doesn't really talk about when you are granted salvation. " How can you say that? Paul says, My salvation "IS IN STORE FOR ME" which Christ "will award to me ON [JUDGMENT] DAY. " That statement is about nothing but timing. Therefore, Salvation is not irrevocably gifted (to the non-predestined) until The End. 6 ========== Is Disqualification Possible? I accept your rebuttal of 1 Cor 9:27. It is possible that the crown/prize is "winning others to Jesus" as you suggest. 8 ========== Is Falling possible? But, I rejoin with the subsequent chapter (too long to quote). 1 Cor 10 contains a number of warnings from Paul to non-predestined Gentiles (probably including both TRUE CHRISTIANS and false converts). First, Paul counsels them to: not set their hearts on evil things, Not be idolaters, Not fornicate, Not test Christ, And not grumble (vv. 6-10). Then he tells them that any time temptations come, God will get them out of trouble (v. 13). Sounds like Paul could have skipped writing the whole section. Why would Paul have bothered to give counsel to those who "were not of us" (1 John 2:19), And who Jesus "never knew" (Matt 7:23)? Why would Paul need to give any counsel to someone who has already received the "irrevocable [gift]" (Rom 11:29), Who "is a new creation" (2 Cor 5:17), Who Christ "will by no means cast out" (John 6:37), And who God will get out of trouble (1 Cor 10:13)? The very existence of counsel suggests that it is needed. After becoming TRUE CHRISTIANS, It is possible to fall from salvation. Paul says so himself in verse 12: "if you think you are standing firm, Be careful that you don't fall! " Care is only needed for possible outcomes. If it were impossible, He would have said "don't worry about falling. " Therefore, Falling is possible. Your rebuttal of Category C (according to Matt 24:10) is to say they are Category B people. But you don't address my preemptions of this designation: your defining Bible source (Mathew 7:21-23) doesn't apply to these people. Is there another type of false convert that is supported elsewhere in the Bible. Nevertheless, The plain reading of Matt 24 is: some folks will TURN FROM THE REAL FAITH before The End. Therefore, Falling will happen to some TRUE CHRISTIANS.