The LDS Concept of Faith is Irrational.

Pro's definition is on-point but not complete. This is in no way a contradictory statement. Defining "the LDS concept of faith" is far more in-depth than citing a few scriptures. Especially when most of those scriptures are from the Bible. To reinforce my explanation I will quote the official church doctrine. "The Apostle Paul taught that "faith is the substance [assurance] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). Alma made a similar statement: "If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true" (Alma 32:21). Faith is a principle of action and power. Whenever we work toward a worthy goal, we exercise faith. We show our hope for something that we cannot yet see." (1) This is a complete definition according to church doctrine that includes pro's definition and my addendum to his definition. So yes, you were on point, but not complete. Describing the sky as blue is on point, but it also gradated and is often spotted with white clouds. In the LDS concept of faith, there is a big difference between "knowing" by faith and "having a perfect knowledge." Elder Richard G. Scott, one of the LDS apostles, explains how to gain spiritual knowledge. "As you seek spiritual knowledge, search for principles. Carefully separate them from the detail used to explain them. Principles are concentrated truth, packaged for application to a wide variety of circumstances. A true principle makes decisions clear even under the most confusing and compelling circumstances. It is worth great effort to organize the truth we gather to simple statements of principle. I have tried to do that with gaining spiritual knowledge. The result is now shared in hope that it will be a beginning place for your study. That statement of principle is: To acquire spiritual knowledge and to obey it with wisdom, one must: " In humility, seek divine light. " Exercise faith in Jesus Christ. " Hearken to His counsel. " Keep His commandments. As spiritual knowledge unfolds, it must be understood, valued, obeyed, remembered, and expanded." (2) Elder Scott is describing how a normal person can apply the epistemology to gain spiritual knowledge. Once this kind of knowledge is obtained, one could truthfully say "I know (insert principle) is true." "Perfect knowledge" is a term that comes up quite often in church doctrine. In short, "perfect knowledge" is the ultimate goal of faith as Richard C. Edgley explains. "But while I don"t know everything, I know the important. I know the plain and simple gospel truths that lead to salvation and exaltation. I know that the Savior did suffer the pain of all men and that all repentant people can be cleansed from sin. And what I don"t know or don"t completely understand, with the powerful aid of my faith, I bridge the gap and move on, partaking of the promises and blessings of the gospel. And then, as Alma teaches, our faith brings us to a perfect knowledge (see Alma 32:34). By moving forward into the unknown, armed only with hope and desire, we show evidence of our faith and our devotion to the Lord." (3) The Prophet Joseph Smith (or founder of the LDS church to the unbelieving) explains that for a man to achieve a perfect knowledge "He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God." (4) There are very, very few people who will obtain a "perfect knowledge" in their mortal life, but eventually as members continue to act in faith, they are promised that they will receive a perfect knowledge. At that point, faith no longer is needed. Pro stated "God supposedly has a perfect knowledge, and yet it is taught that he created the world through faith." This statement is unwarranted and untrue. I followed pro"s citation is states: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (5) Pro clearly misread or misunderstood the scripture. Faith is how we understand, or know, God created the world. God didn"t create the world through faith because God has a perfect knowledge. God, via Jesus Christ, created the world with the power of the priesthood. As stated in church doctrine "Jesus Christ created this world and everything in it. He also created many other worlds. He did so through the power of the priesthood, under the direction of our Heavenly Father." (6) Because pro uses anecdotal evidence in an attempt to warrant his claim, I will also use my own anecdote: I had my doubts about the church in high school. I decided read the Book of Mormon. I prayed with real intent to know if it was true. And I had an intense moment of clarity and peace that I know came from my heavenly father. I have a spiritual knowledge that it is true, because I cannot in good conscience deny the feeling I had. I never saw God, or heard his voice, so I cannot claim to have a perfect knowledge. And that is ok. I have a valuable spiritual knowledge that I continue to build upon and it improves my life dramatically. To be clear. I don"t want to disparage pro"s personal experience, or lack thereof. It takes time, and persistence to receive spiritual knowledge. At the very least, my anecdote against your anecdote eliminates either at proof. Pro did state that he accepts the full burden of proof, so this is enough to dismiss this argument. Pro also miss characterizes my final point saying "Just because many people believe something does not imply truth and in this case does not imply reason." I never argued that many people make something right, but the vast and well documents positive actions of those people do provide evidence that something reasonable is happening within that movement. We are not debating whether the church is true or not. We are debating that the LDS concept of faith is reasonable. I've shown that the LDS concept of faith has a track record - millions deep. And pro has simply not met his burden of proof.