Baptism is a salvation issue.

"Instead of using philosophy why don't we try to use the bible to interpret what baptism means". Reply written words is a way of communicating, if we form a word from a different language, (= a transliteration) then we really have to look at that language for the meaning of the word . Reply - When we study all the passages in the New Testament where we find the word "baptism", we find that there are actually SEVEN "baptisms" in the New Testament; four "waterless" "figurative baptisms", and three "literal" "water baptisms" that have a symbolic meaning. Who Got wet at the Red sea ? millions of people were baptized, the only people that got wet were "the Egyptians". (1 Cor 10:1-4) Mat.20:22: "Baptism of the Cross", in which Christ was "identified" with our sins, called here the "Baptism of the Cup". He who knew no sin was made to be a sin offering for us. = no "water" Matt 20:22 = "But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. = "no water" Matt. 3:11-12, Luke 3:16: The Baptism of Fire, which will occur at the end of the Seven Year Tribulation, is the removal of all unbelievers from the earth at the end of the Tribulation, to begin the 1000 year Millennial Reign of Christ on earth with believers only. ("Wheat" in this passage refers to the people of God who physically live through the Tribulation, and "chaff", in the Scripture, always refers to unbelievers). In this "baptism", every human being that is left on the earth to live into the Millennium is "identified" with the Millennial reign of Christ, where the world is started over with believers only, just like the Great Flood of Noah's time swept away all the unbelievers.. Does "baptism of fire" = going down into the water and coming back up. ? NO!! , = my opponents definition of Baptism is not accurate. Acts 3:7 ***Fact the eunuch believed that Jesus was the Son of the living God.*** Reply = "the eunuch had already been born of God" = spiritually baptized, due to his belief, ..1 John 5:1 says " Whosoever (presently) believeth that Jesus is the Christ is (has already been) born of God.= born again of the spirit., = second birth. - John 3:3 = "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God".= "the eunuch was born of Water" Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. "NOT of works" = "getting ourselves physically baptized does not save us" = "Not of yourselves", we can do nothing to save ourselves, Our faith comes from God, (= not of yourselves) - Rom 12:3 "God has delt to every man a measure of faith" our repentance is of Godly sorrow ( = Not of yourselves) - 2 Cor 7:10 = "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death" So if we have faith (believe) and repent. (changed) = we are spiritually baptized, = all an act of God, What did God tell Moses ?. Rom 9:14-16: 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth (wants it), nor of him that runneth (works for it), but of God that showeth mercy. ( = this includes "wants physically baptized and gets physically baptized" = "wants and works") We are given to the Bridegroom (Jesus) as a gift from the father to his son. = we do not choose our groom, the groom's Father chooses us ! (= he baptizes us into identification with his son) "you have not chosen me, I have chosen you" (John 15:16) Jesus prayed in John 17:9 "I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine". Once we have been cleansed = "spiritually baptized" we are then promised to Jesus, and are dead in the flesh, = Eph 1:4 = "According as he (the father) hath chosen us in him (Jesus) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy ( = with the spirit) and without blame ( = sin free) before him in love":( = keeping the commandments)- "If you love me keep my commandments") We have no input in our salvation, and nor has anyone else (= no pride, profit, or pleasure) 1 Peter 3:21 ***Fact as we see here water baptism saves us.*** Reply Yes baptism does save us, but where in this passage or any other passage are we taught that it's a physical water baptism that saves us ? = the teaching doesn't exist, = there is no such passage ! = "Not of works" (Eph 2:9) the passage tells you what the baptism is, = "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" = washing of sin, = water baptism", but the answer of a good conscience toward God" = belief in God,= spiritual baptism, My opponent appears to be tripping over his own passages Pro argues, - "physical water baptism is necessary for Salvation", Yet when I highlighted that the thief on the cross was indeed saved without this baptism, he wrongly persisted with his argument. Jesus had already stated unequivocally that a man had to be "born of water and of the spirit" or he cannot "enter into the kingdom of God", Jesus provided no exception or time scale to this rule NONE!,, so this man had clearly fulfilled this requirement for Jesus to have told him that "he would be with him in Paradise" yet he received no "physical water baptism". My opponent replied to this by stating that "the church was not born", = irrelevant, - this debate is about "physical baptism in relation to salvation" .. ,not when, if, before, or after, a particular event, I have provided a perfect example of a man receiving salvation without a physical baptism, (Luke 23:43) which alone proves my case, ! Acts 2:38 ***Fact it would not make sense to repent if you already had the remissions of sins. That is like repenting because of the remissions of sins. This passage also states baptism is different then receiving the Holy Ghost.*** Reply we are baptized For ( = because) the remission of sins, again who can tell if we have been forgiven, who has the right to baptize other than God himself ? = No body, who are we told to trust other than Jesus for our salvation ?,, = "no body", We are not saved by ourselves, or anyone else claiming to be able to save us, other than Jesus, Allow me to end this post, with explaining a scenario. according to my opponents beliefs, an Arab living this entire life in the desert alone with no water cannot get into heaven, because he cannot be physically baptized by another person in water, yet we read that this Arab can be given salvation in Rom 1:20 = "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Here Paul is teaching how the Arab can be saved, by simply looking around him and believing in the God that made the things he sees, a physical water baptism doesn't even get a mention ! = belief is the only requirement. Only religion which is totally dependant on their followers for self survival, preach the necessity of a physical water baptism. Christians don't need religion,water,or people, only belief in Jehovah Elohim again I quote how we are baptized = 1 Cor 12:13 = "by one spirit we are all baptized".- "one spirit" or "one person" ? Jn 8:24, "if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins". If you "believe not" or "if you are physically baptized not" ? believe = we are born of God.= second birth 1 Cor 15:45 "...first Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit" = two births,, physical and spiritual water and spirit.