Near Death Experience (NDE)

(I accept the Con position of this debate. .. etc) Ogan: Apologies for the lack of definitions, I tend to take definitions for granted - lack of formal education on my part no doubt. The definition is much wider than I supposed. I really am referring to those NDE's where the Consciousness is vastly expanded and is able to KNOW beyond question its own inherent Eternity and its belonging to God. If these kinds of NDE experienced by quite a number of people are not acceptable to you then I will 'throw the towel' and forfeit the debate - though that would be a pity. (Dr. Karl Jansen and NDE) Ogan: To begin with I would say it matters not a jot what the cause of NDE happens to be, only what the result in the consciousness of the recipient is. I presume you KNOW you are not hallucinating at this moment - unless there is something wrong with you. I therefore presume that during an NDE you would also KNOW whether you were hallucinating or not, either during or after the event. The fact that being struck on the head with a brick or any other method, such as the use of ketamine etc. , leading to an NDE does not prove that NDE's to quote you "have a biological cause and are ultimately unrelated to death"ï¿½. As regards ketamine, I agree totally with Dr J Long in the following note: www. nderf. org/ Ketamine 6/8/10 I talked with a retired anaesthesiologist that I see periodically in follow up. He indicated that Ketamine was approved for anaesthesia in children and adults many decades ago. He remembers the day well. For whatever reason, approval to use Ketamine began at 11:00 AM on a particular day. They rescheduled an obese patient with haemorrhoids to undergo surgery that afternoon. The patient received Ketamine, and bled profusely. Apparently Ketamine does not lower the blood pressure the way most other aesthetic agents do. This anaesthesiologist indicated that he used Ketamine as an aesthetic regularly for three months for adult anaesthesia. He would routinely ask patients after surgery about their experience with the anaesthesia. He recalls that about 75% of his patients receiving Ketamine described frightening dream-like hallucinations. The other 25% did not describe any particular experience. So many patients had frightening hallucinations with Ketamine that he stopped using Ketamine routinely in adults after about three months. He would continue to use Ketamine for selected patients, especially trauma patients where low blood pressure was a concern. Only a few percent of NDEs are predominantly frightening, and even these frightening NDEs are generally not dream-like or hallucinatory. This anaesthesiologist's observations are some of the most objective and reliable observations about experiences associated with Ketamine. Experiences reported during NDEs are very different from Ketamine experiences. There is no evidence that Ketamine consistently reproduces any element of NDE. Reported by Dr. Jeff Long (I am aware my opponent did not say 'afterlife'. .. .. ) Ogan: Again I apologise for lack of definition. I agree with your definition of 'afterlife' meaning the soul being eternal and the body not, although I should say that the matter and energy of the body are also eternal, so what we call death of the physical body should really be called change or transition - as say the atoms in the ice sculpture carry on as normal H2O after the temporary form has melted - the temporary form being merely an image in the Creator's Mind! (Being a christian I do in fact agree that the soul is eternal but not because I think proof exist, but by faith. ) Ogan: To begin with, I have a few of my own thoughts on Faith. If it were possible to rationalise faith and explain it in reasonable terms, then it would immediately cease to be faith at all and become reason, at which point it would cease to be. Faith is hungry for the Truth it feels but cannot see, and pushing forward with great determination into the unknown, is eventually rewarded with the seeds of Inspiration in a sudden blinding flash of pure Insight. St Paul received such, therefore Knowledge is better than Faith. Regarding lucid dreaming. The difference between True Consciousness and lucid dreaming is the difference between the sun and the fire-fly. Secondly, because you believe the monster is chasing you during sleep does that make it real? If it is not real, why are you running from it? If it is real, who is being chased and experiencing such fear? (Even under the assumption that the recipient can rationally accept the experience. .. etc) Ogan: If the soul is already eternal within itself, why would it not remember this when becoming fully Conscious after leaving the body, as you would upon awakening from the nightmare during sleep laugh at the monster you were running from? Surely, this cannot be proven accept that you experience it Within yourself. The eventual annihilation of the soul is probably one of the most wicked teachings ever promulgated by reason. Even the most materialistic atheists would tell you that matter and energy are everlasting and did not come from nothingness, and therefore can never return to nothingness – out of nothingness comes…. . NOTHING. I prefer the word Formation to Creation if you see my point? (Now for the third part of your resolution etc. .. .) Ogan: No blueprint – no building. All material beings and things have a blueprint or archetype. Without this how could anything in Nature gain a working form? Imagine a pile of rubble evolving after many haphazard motions through time into St Pauls Cathedral, perfect in all its beautiful architecture, without any plan, blueprint or archetype – impossible and against all reason and logic – yet some otherwise intelligent people actually believe this utter nonsense! To be clear, that is why virtually all those who experience NDE's, see and recognise their ‘dead' relatives and loved ones just as their material bodies looked like on the earthly plane of vibrations. Their ‘body of light' if we can call it that for now – it's only a label – is that actual archetype before the material baby was even conceived. (so in short. .. .. .. .. .. . 1), 2) and 3) burden of proof etc) Ogan: To follow your summary in the above tabulations: 1)NDE as a general label perhaps, some of which border on lucid dreams. But as I said earlier, I am considering only those NDE's I regard as a revelation of the soul's existence to the recipient and the marvellous discovery of having eternal life. An experience which can be "explained" as you put it, "without considering a soul to exist" can only be a phenomenon of biology, whereas NDE is a total separation from bodily connections and bodily senses, and therefore cannot be communicated from one to another – it must be experienced – as it will for all of us eventually. 2)As I said earlier, the soul becomes conscious and KNOWS of its own eternity and does not need run, creep or fly around to ask other disembodied souls, who are also fully aware of this. This is a Superior Self Consciousness which must be experienced. 3)Most people, me included, don't need NDE to ‘prove' anything. It's just that it happens to prove to the recipients their eternity and that the life to come is full of Freedom, Love, Knowledge and Power. The effect of this marvellous experience is that they feel compelled to inform others of their experience regardless of any ridicule or threats emanating from other irritated temporary prisoners. Physical forms are direct reflections of higher forms or archetypes. The mind is only an ‘aspect' of Higher Consciousness, some of which is given as a gift to some blest recipients. The proof has been received. Lastly, that the existence of the soul can be discovered in many other ways apart from NDE not at all biological, but again these ‘enlightenments' cannot be communicated from one to a