LM Classic Puck vs. Ragnar Rahl

"That would be like saying Goku and Vegeta (if they were allowed in this tournament), were "violating the canon" by ducking behind a skyscraper, because skyscrapers are not invulnerable in their world." Not the same as the invulnerable property is not an attribute of themselves, unlike the Hive Mind. "even if the canon he is from contains no instances of him ever being deprived of such an atmosphere." Just makes for an easy win. :D "I'm not sure how being a spirit of cities makes you a PART of a city, but presuming it does, such would be valid." Point was attribution of ability is applied to the character. "It's not unlimited. The rules prohibit teleporting it out of New York, but not removing it some other way-- if your characters can. It is therefore a strictly limited invulnerability-- limited by location. The man who was not vulnerable while he touched the earth was not unlimited, for he could be lifted." The tournament rules however stipulate that NY is indestructible - given that leaving NY violates another rule that would precede any discussion of what to do after the invulnerability was revoked. As the battle must remain in NY the ability invulnerable is static, and therefore unlimited (cannot be damaged - leaves no gray area for any partly aspect). "They are safe from what was described first round. That was my intent." Understandably the majority of this debate is resolving around Jagang's abitlity - granted your team start inside the Hive would negate my initial plan *shakes fist* the R2 'even if' was not, that dealt with your team inside - that's fine if you want to place all with Jagang, and most likely is relevant to the judge(s) as to whose argument is more compelling. "If Jagang were limited by foreknowledge of his opponents, the canon would all but certainly describe scouts looking for such opportunities, and people who escaped such knowledge. It doesn't really seem to though." By that rhetoric we would assume all possibilities to be covered in a book, making them rather long dull, and potentially put editors out of a job. Since we know editors do exist, presumably for purposes other than spell checking, it's not possible to assume what content would/would not be included. "What makes most sense? Considering the canon, which is that the ease of finding things depends on how powerful they are (Incidentally, he can find not only the "gifted" easily, but also apparently sorcerors and so forth-- and both additive and subtractive help, both being magics from different sources)" Ha, ok, my reading was that the gift applied to all magic users, not particular sorts, so my usages of that term may have been erroneous prior - the intent of using the term Gift was to indicate all magic users. "we can presume due to Occam's razor that he can search for other minds with his, and the degree to which they stand out is amplified by the degree of the power those minds directly control, which would explain why he has an easier time with the gifted (Incidentally, this would mean that in a New York of 10 minds, there would be very little to obscure his consciousness)." He has an easier time with the gifted, presumably because that was the purpose of his abilities form - described as a weapon, with specific intents. That still doesn't indicate other than the fact that his ability, as a weapon of war against magic users, was built for magic of that world, from magic of that world. Nor should it be taken as magic is an entity of one nature, source, pool, from which 'manipulate magic' can be derived. If his magic wasn't tied to the magic of that world, then Richard leaving (and not being present here) would never have been an issue - and presumably the boxes of Orden would have transformed all worlds not just his. Again something the judge(s) will have to resolve. "This does not follow. Preserving Spiral's claim to "not making it easier," does not preserve her claim to immunity. The claim to immunity would RELY on Jagang dealing in the same medium as everyone else." To claim magic drawn from dimensions is the same as everyone is erroneous, given even within Marvel, there are multiple sources e.g. within self. "Jagang uses his power in the space between moments. He is therefore instantaneously aware of this, and acts accordingly by switching targets. This assumes that the mechanic basics of "mental control," which have no real equivalents, are the same between canons, which you rebutted above. Telepathy is an ability definable in terms of physics, albeit Marvel physics, and limited by it's laws-- ultimately, an interaction between brain cells, which cannot outdo the instantaneous nature of Jagang's magic." The point raised was that the magic has a physical basis - in this case to transport Jagang's mind elsewhere - if magic of his world had no physical basis, then wizard's fire would not burn, the boxes of Orden would not change matter etc. As the magic indicates a physical basis - it can be engaged on in another physical level, much like Marvel vs. DC can occur, though the share different sets of their particular physics - in this case telepathy. The shifting targets point was addressed by Sinister's ability to sense his presence, thus engage it. "By the time any defense could be complicated, the mind would already be lost. Sinister would instead be contemplating an assault upon his allies by that time :). Does Mr. Sinister have possessive abilities? Direct them at everyone not immune to his." It's akin to saying I use my abilty, thus my ability has been used - ignoring that there must still be a process resolved (at least from my standpoint - i.e. trying to take over Sinister's mind would result in Sinister battling for that control). Each of the characters you described is a mutant, whose abilities rely on their PHYSICAL nature. The gravity of a pea would stand a better chance of holding the pea together despite a nuclear explosion than any defense that takes time to mount could against the instantaneous." Read above "A mirror can reflect light but not a fist, both of which can be described in terms of physics, what ground can you have for extrapolating from telepaths which can to Jagang which can't?" It was a wild swing to be sure. :D Hence the 'At minimum'.