Team Debate: Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious

Thanks to gabep and Rami for a wonderful, informative, and nerdy debate! At this time, we’ll present our final rebuttals, review some other points raised in the round, and provide some concluding analysis.DROPSThe below are arguments we raised that the Con team has failed to address or has dropped. Since this is the last round, any attempt by Con to rebut these points or to extend dropped arguments would count as a “new” argument. New arguments are prohibited by the rules, so I ask judges to disregard any attempts by Con to address these points. 1. Windu was physically stronger than Sidious and had more physical stamina.2. As we wrote: “Finally, DM has a key flaw: ‘If not carefully applied, Dun Möch could backfire upon the user, spurring the intended target to anger instead of overwhelming him/her with fear.’ Vaapad, Windu’s preferred fighting style, allowed him to utilize that anger more effectively in combat. By allowing DM to spark anger in him, Windu could thus make himself even stronger. ‘Vaapad was explained as being a state of mind rather than just a fighting style, allowing the wielder to channel his own inner darkness into the duel, and accept the fury of the opponent.’” This turns Con’s DM arguments: DM would’ve strengthened Windu.3. As we wrote, “Finally, Sidious's mastery of dual blade fighting is almost totally irrelevant, as it is evident that Sidious only had a single blade on him to wield at the time.”4. As we wrote, “The article specifically mentions that shatterpoint requires talent ‘or’ concentration, not both. There is also an image in that article, the caption of which notes that shatterpoint can be used in lightsaber combat.” So, shatterpoint CAN be used by Windu in this situation and in the midst of combat.5. As we wrote: “Sidious’s duels with Maul would’ve ended after the Battle of Naboo (32 BBY), meaning that Sidious would’ve gone 13 years with little practice in swordsmanship (19 BBY).”6. The confined space of the Chancellor’s suite is a plausible alternative explanation for Windu’s lack of speed, just as Windu’s unwillingness to kill if he could arrest explains some of his slowness in making the killing strike.7. Maul was vulnerable to DM given his emotional instability and prideful nature.8. As we wrote: “however intense the power of Darth Sidious’ lightning was, it could rather easily be rendered ineffective by Mace Windu, who was able to use his lightsaber to not only absorb lightning - but deflect it back at Sidious with Vaapad: ‘Calling once again on his Vaapad mastery, Windu just barely managed to catch the lightning on his lightsaber and began deflecting it back at Sidious.’ This would make the force lighting not only useless, but something that could contribute to the defeat of Sidious.” Even if Sidious wasn’t trapped in the loop, one of his most powerful assets still could’ve been countered by Vaapad. FORCE AND LIGHTSABER ABILITIESAs we said in earlier rounds, DM would be an ineffective tactic to use on Windu, due to his mastery over his emotions - as DM was purely an emotional attack. That said, there was no evidence that Sidious even attempted to use the tactic. There were no taunts directed at Windu in the battle, and Sidious didn’t do anything that would fall under provocative - such as using telekinesis to throw things at Windu in an attempt to throw him off. Con also put forth no evidence that DM was a tactic used by Sidious that made him able to kill the other three masters with Windu. One of his proposed DM taunts was said by him to have failed (“I am the Senate”) - which wasn’t really a taunt that was of a personal nature anyway. Therefore, it couldn’t even qualify as a DM taunt in the first place. Regardless, even if it could, Con says it failed. His other quote that he pushed as a mental attack - “It’s treason, then” - could not have affected Windu, as he was already convinced to be doing the correct thing, and therefore could not have been thrown off in this manner. It doesn’t quite qualify as a DM attack, as we have cited DM attacks to be “...spoken taunts, jeers, and jests that exposed the opponent's hidden, inner weaknesses and/or doubts, which had the end result of eroding the opponent's will.” Windu’s moral conviction in his actions were not internally doubted, as doubt was not a weakness Windu had.Con writes: "The fact that Windu had control over his emotions is irrelevant. DM was used to merely break an opponent’s will to fight and/or concentration and did not necessarily require strong emotions to work. For example, it could merely be a distraction or, as we stated in R2, a mental attack. DM can take several forms, and the creation of an emotional imbalance is just one of them."Firstly, Windu had an extreme amount of control and concentration for a Jedi. He was indisputably the master of his emotions. Plus his strategic thinking in driving Sidious to the window-ledge (see our R2) and his ability to use shatterpoint demonstrate that Windu was a highly focused fighter, and would not have be susceptible to DM in any form, including attempts to distract him.Secondly, every example of successful DM that Con has cited (such as Maul) has been someone who was emotionally vulnerable to DM. So, Con's own examples seem to suggest that you must have some chinks in your emotional armor for the mental or verbal attacks of DM to really be effective. There is no evidence that Windu had such chinks, and there is a lot of reason to believe that he was too emotionally stable to succumb to DM.Thirdly, Con says Sidious used DM (“The Jedi are taking over”) while Windu was using Vaapad to reflect lightning back at Sidious. This is further evidence that DM wouldn’t have broken Windu’s concentration or Vaapad ability.Also, Con never ultimately rebutted the most recent argument put forth on the relation of shatterpoint to DM. We said: “The article...specifically mentions that shatterpoint requires talent “or” concentration, not both. There is also an image in that article, the caption of which notes that shatterpoint can be used in lightsaber combat.” We also noted that Windu was obviously able to continue using Vaapad - thus pointing to DM failing, if Sidious even attempted to use it (and we also have shown he did not attempt using it, regardless). So, it must be concluded that Windu had the full advantage of shatterpoint, as well as Vaapad - which allowed him to use Sidious’ rage against him - giving Windu a substantial addition in power, and thus an undeniable advantage.NON-FORCE ABILITIESCon does not properly address the point of stamina in our argument. Windu, being an entire decade younger, had much more capacity for long-lasting battle than Sidious did. The entirety of Con’s rebuttal to Windu being more physically fit was that Sidious could use the force to enhance his speed and strength to great levels. While strength was important in battle, Windu could still outmatch Sidious here due to his natural strength, as well as his ability to also use the force to enhance strength. Using the force would be irrelevant, too, due to the small space they were dueling in - which didn’t allow for a great amount of maneuvering. However, while Con put forth argument on speed and strength, Con did not rebut the stamina argument - of which force enhanced speed and strength is irrelevant to. Windu’s superior stamina would allow him to, in the long run, outlast Sidious and therefore gain an advantage in a duel with no intervention. The ability to continue fighting would have been important, and Sidious would not have been able to keep up with Windu.Con also adds: “Thus, even if Windu did use Vaapad, Sidious probably had a way to counter it.” This is pure speculation on Con’s part, and no evidence Con offered suggests that Sidious had a way of defeating the superconducting loop of Vaapad (which rendered Sidious’s lightning useless, even if he could’ve broken off the loop) or of being able to overpower Windu with lightsaber technique.CONCLUDING ANALYSISWith these things considered, Windu had the clear advantage in this duel. Firstly, his Vaapad ability gave him the power to counter Sidious’s lightning and to even reflect it back at Sidious. Secondly, Windu’s shatterpoint gave him a combative advantage Sidious did not have--the capacity to see exactly how to defeat or weaken an adversary. Thirdly, Windu’s physical abilities would make him able to last longer in a duel, in comparison to Sidious. So, Windu himself would’ve been a formidable opponent.It would also give him more physical power. In our rounds, we have shown that Sidious’ major force powers, as pushed by Con - DM and lightning - would be useless in battle against Windu. Vaapad would also make it so Windu could use Sidious’ lightning to his own advantage. Therefore, we have absolutely negated two major points in Con’s argument - and one was even dropped completely (lightning). DM, too, is a useless tactic against Windu, due to his mental guard and concentration, which was shown to be unaffected during the fight, as he was shown to have the concentration to use Vaapad. Also, if there even was a successful application of DM, it would have been to Sidious’ detriment, as DM exposes inner flaws - which is one of the things Vaapad exploits for a combative advantage. That is a dropped turn of Con’s main argument.So, even had this been a fair fight, even had Sidious foughts his hardest, there is no reason to believe that he would’ve won. His two biggest strengths as outlined by Con were useless, and Windu had clear advantages over Sidious. Thus, we affirm that Windu would’ve been the likely winner had Anakin not intervened. Please, VOTE PRO! Thank you!