Church/Religion is the biggest scam and manipulation of ill informed human minds.

It is an interesting topic; may the best debater win. "If you have studied the past of many religions, especially christianity, you should know that the church has been involved in many money making scams, created to gain personal wealth even if it goes against the principles of the religion itself. " I agree, it has; but I believe you are doing some serious generalization, and mingling Catholics with Protestant christians. The Roman Catholic church was indeed involved in many money-making scams, one of the most offensive being the selling of indulgences, which you have already mentioned. Scientology is another religion that is all about making money. The basic idea of the religion (and I realize this isn't in great detail) is this: your body is possessed by many "body thetens" which define your personality and influence you to do bad things. How do you get rid of them? Pay lots of money to the leaders of the church (or someone who is at the head of the religion). In fact, the founder of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, is widely rumored to have said "The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion. " but although this is probably true, there is no solid evidence. The whole thing is just a money making scam. Another main money scam is the so called "christian" televangelism. Many of these televangelists teach what is called prosperity doctrine which says that if you will only give more to the church, God will bless you with long life, health, wealth, and prosperity. Many, many people fall for this teaching, and spend the rest of their lives wondering just how much they will have to give in order to please God. All of this I agree is very sick, however I don't see how Protestant christians fit into all of this. "Not so much today, but in the past, the beloved religion Christianity used its power to manipulate the minds of all its followers to pay money, and other sinister acts such as the selling of indulgences. " Roman Catholics have slacked off, but Scientology and Televangelists are as active as ever. Televangelists continue to preach their prosperity doctrine, and Scientologists continue to force their members to "pay money for salvation". Once again, however, I don't see how Protestant christians fit into all of this. While the Roman Catholics were in ther full glory of selling indulgences and all of their other money making schemes (at this time Scientologists and Televangelists were not around obviously), Martin Luther, one of the fathers of protestant christianity, was appalled by the outrageous acts of the Roman Catholics, and posted his 95 theses on the door of the church to show what he knew needed to be changed. This included the selling of indugences. He knew it was wrong, and made an obvious point that it was wrong. NOTE: I would like to expound on this, however I don't think I will have enough space as it is, so depending on where this debate takes us, I will try to address it further later. "I'm pretty sure, that the founders of the religion did not have intention of using their religion to take money from their followers for their own good. The church even said at sometimes it had more authority than the bible, most basically saying it was more powerful than the religion it was trying to teach. " You are exactly right, the founders did NOT have this in mind, however the Roman Catholics twisted it to this. You are also correct in saying that they said they had more power than the Bible at some ponts in time, however it was the Roman Catholics that did this, not Protestant christians. "That fact that a church had ANY power in past times is astounding. How could a fictional belief be of one to hold any power in a way such as the power to kill people because of committing heresy. The church tried so hard in those times to kill and quiet anyone who was brave enough to speak out against the Churches absurdity. " Whether or not a religion is fictional is not for and me to decide, because if you ask a Muslim, their religion is not fictional. If you ask a Buddhist, Buddism is not fictional. It's all what you believe. As to the rest, AMEN! However what you are describing was done by the Roman Catholics, once again. They read the Bible in latin, and anyone who tried to read it any other language was persecuted. They even went so far as to approve of something like the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, which destroyed thousands of PROTESTANT christians, men, women and children alike, who opposed the Roman Catholic church. Once again, the Protestant had nothing to do with what you are saying all religions did and do; especially christianity. At this point, the Roman Catholic church could no longer be considered christian; it was it's own religion. "They were constantly trying to cover up everything to keep it the way it was, keep the money flowing. The church liked having tons of money keep coming in from their followers not only so the officials of the church could live in luxury but especially the pope. In those times, people paid to keep themselves out of "hell" so the money could be spent on the popes new furniture. The pope is a figure of such a nonsense belief and yet he somehow gets more power than others in today's society. He is ruler of nothing. " You are direcly refering to Roman Catholic and their appaling practices in that time. Since I believe that the Roman Catholics were no longer christians at that point, all I have to say is that you are absolutely correct. "Back in the day the church, made grouops to specifically stop other religions and trick people into joining christianity (Council of trent, jesuits). Back when people weren't as educated and didn't have the explanation for things available today, the church tricked them into joining the religion, believing the churches teachings, and giving the church money. In fact, one of the Holy Roman Emperors officially declared the church interpretation of the bible is final, therefore being able to do anything they want with their followers, which they did. " Once again, you are describing stunt of the Roman Catholic church, and they were rediculous. The Protestants, who kept to the true christian religion, had nothing to do with this. "Today, more and more people, as we get smarter are realizing the sad truth that god is a completely fictional character. Let's be real there is no god, heaven, or hell, and people are getting smarter, realizing the world isn't flat, global warming is real (that's for another debate), and finally, hopefully accepting that their religion is complete bogus. God is the center the of most religion, and keeping it real, there is no god, and the places of worship are desperate to keep people in their religions. Without a god, religion is not real. " This whole statement is based on your pesonal beliefes. You believe that there is no god, and I respect that, however MANY people do. Believeing in a god is a right that at least people in America have, and as long as they are not forcing people into their religion or tricking people into it, it is perfectly ok. The Roman Catholics did both of these, and somehow they remain with the title "christian". The protestants along with all other true christian did neither of these, and do not do either. As long as the religion is not fanatic and/or decieving and forceful, believeing in a god does not hurt anything. You go on to say that the church has no power in the real world, and your right. The church has no power to force anything on anyone. You also continue to say that there is no god, but I addressed that above. You say Finally, in closing, you say once again that religion is a scam, but I have shown you that you direcly describe the faulty religion of the Roman Catholics in most if not all of your claims. I am sorry that I didn't make a straight forward attempt to defend my position, but I will!