Rematch: Does God exist

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) The idea that God created time, along with the physical universe, is not just some wacky modern Christian interpretation of the Bible. Justin Martyr, a second century Christian apologist, in his Hortatory Address to the Greeks, said that Plato got the idea that time was created along with the universe from Moses: "And from what source did Plato draw the information that time was created along with the heavens? For he wrote thus: 'Time, accordingly, was created along with the heavens; in order that, coming into being together, they might also be together dissolved, if ever their dissolution should take place.' Had he not learned this from the divine history of Moses?"1 God exists in timeless eternity How does God acting before time began get around the problem of God's creation? There are two possible interpretations of these verses. One is that God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence. Beyond the Cosmos: What Recent Discoveries in Astrophysics Reveal about the Glory and Love of God. God exists in multiple dimensions of time. The second interpretation is that God exists in more than one dimension of time. Things that exist in one dimension of time are restricted to time's arrow and are confined to cause and effect. However, two dimensions of time form a plane of time, which has no beginning and no end and is not restricted to any single direction. A being that exists in at least two dimensions of time can travel anywhere in time and yet never had a beginning, since a plane of time has no starting point. Either interpretation leads one to the conclusion that God has no need of having been created. Why can't the universe be eternal? The idea that God can be eternal leads us to the idea that maybe the universe is eternal, and, therefore, God doesn't need to exist at all. Actually, this was the prevalent belief of atheists before the observational data of the 20th century strongly refuted the idea that the universe was eternal. This fact presented a big dilemma for atheists, since a non-eternal universe implied that it must have been caused. Maybe Genesis 1:1 was correct! Not to be dismayed by the facts, atheists have invented some metaphysical "science" that attempts to explain away the existence of God. Hence, most atheistic cosmologists believe that we see only the visible part of a much larger "multiverse" that randomly spews out universes with different physical parameters.2 Since there is no evidence supporting this idea (nor can there be, according to the laws of the universe), it is really just a substitute "god" for atheists. And, since this "god" is non-intelligent by definition, it requires a complex hypothesis, which would be ruled out if we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon. Purposeful intelligent design of the universe makes much more sense, especially based upon what we know about the design of the universe. What does science say about time? When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (i.e., the Big Bang).3 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time (see The Universe is Not Eternal, But Had A Beginning). Such assertions support the Bible's claim that time began at the creation of the universe. God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.8 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific). Do you seriously believe "nobody plus nothing equals everything"! "The Ontological argument is just stupid." That is not very civil in a debate... Name one thing that humanity has done that is completely perfect... It is just illogical to say that we can imagine something that we have never seen before perfectly. Have you tried describing colors to a blind person? It is impossible to do so where he can see and understand the colors fully. In your attempted debunking of the morality argument, you only focused on humanity's lack of morality. If there was no moral then, why would rape be frowned upon? There needed to be a perfect being to tell humanity that rape is a big NO. Laws were made to enforce that sense of morality. "Theistic view of Hitler of in his book talked about doing gods work?" You do understand that he, Stalin, Benito Mussolini were atheists right? Hitler used religion as an excuse. Stalin was an atheist and killed 20 MILLION PEOPLE. Might I also add that there is a fine line between extremism, terrorism and religion. There is also a fine line between passive atheism and Stalin's destruction of the church and mass murder of theists. There is another fine line between normal people and insane people. You can't bring up a small minority group of theists that are terrorists and proclaim that all theists are like that. If you want to do that, then atheism should be outlawed. Do you think that there should be a secret police that can kill you on suspicion. Stalin thought that was ok...he was also a atheist. Morality is indeed subjective but all NORMAL people ( not terrorists or other insane people) have a sense of morality. New argument 1.We notice around us things that come into being and go out of being. A tree, for example, grows from a tiny shoot, flowers brilliantly, then withers and dies. 2.Whatever comes into being or goes out of being does not have to be; nonbeing is a real possibility. 3.Suppose that nothing has to be; that is, that nonbeing is a real possibility for everything. 4.Then right now nothing would exist. For 5.If the universe began to exist, then all being must trace its origin to some past moment before which there existed"literally"nothing at all. But 6.From nothing, nothing comes. So... 7.The universe could not have begun. 8.But suppose the universe never began. Then, for the infinitely long duration of cosmic history, all being had the built-in possibility not to be. But 9.If in an infinite time that possibility was never realized, then it could not have been a real possibility at all. So 10.There must exist something which has to exist, which cannot not exist. This sort of being is called necessary. 11.Either this necessity belongs to the thing in itself or it is derived from another. If derived from another there must ultimately exist a being whose necessity is not derived, that is, an absolutely necessary being. 12.This absolutely necessary being is God. Question1: Even though you may never in fact step outside your house all day, it was possible for you to do so. Why is it impossible that the universe still happens to exist, even though it was possible for it to go out of existence? Reply: The two cases are not really parallel. To step outside your house on a given day is something that you may or may not choose to do. But if nonbeing is a real possibility for you, then you are the kind of being that cannot last forever. In other words, the possibility of nonbeing must be built-in, "programmed," part of your very constitution, a necessary property. And if all being is like that, then how could anything still exist after the passage of an infinite time? For an infinite time is every bit as long as forever. So being must have what it takes to last forever, that is, to stay in existence for an infinite time. Therefore there must exist within the realm of being something that does not tend to go out of existence. Good luck...