Jesus is Not the Messiah

1. JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES "I did not shift the BoP upon you, as it is clear to anyone that Jesus did not rebuild the third temple, usher in an era of peace, gather the Jewish nation to Israel, and bring us back to Torah observance." Pro did so by simply asserting it. Pro should already know that I completely disagree with his claim that Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. Simply asserting that it is a historical fact that Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies is not an argument. But I don't think BoP is an important issue so I'll just drop this and get to the real problem, that is, It seems like Pro wants to translate all the prophecies that yhe cited LITERALLY word for word, and automatically preclude the possibility that the prophecies he quoted are symbolic and nature like many of the other prophecies in the Hebrew Bible. I think this is the issue of the debate; interpretation of the prophecies. Prophecies are often times very cryptic and symbolic. They are NEVER completely understood until its already been fulfilled. Also some prophecies are fulfilled gradually. If Pro wants to claim that ALL prophecies are literal (which I don' think he does), then he will have problems explaining a lot of prophecies in the Hebrew Bible that were already fulfilled in the Hebrew Bible, and also other prophecies like the ones in Daniel. Now if Pro wants to argue that the specific messianic prophecies that he cited are all literal, well then this will be our basis for each of the topic. Pro's interpretation vs the NT interpretation of the Hebrew Bible. The NT of course teaches that Jesus is indeed the prophesied messiah. A. Build the Third Temple Pro, again does not make an argument but simply claims that, "it is clear to anyone who reads this that it is a literal temple." Pro does not give us an exegesis of the text at all. I am aware that some Christians believe that a physical temple will be rebuilt in the end times, this is the dispensationalist view. I hold a covenantal view of the temple. But I assure you that the dispensationalists agree with me that Jesus is indeed the messiah and the rebuilding of a physical temple will be attest to it. My current position is that there is no need for a physical temple if the third temple prophecies are metaphorical. Pro also asserts that "it is clear" that a physical temple will be rebuilt the sacrificial system will resume and cites Hosea 3. Pro did not however give us an exegesis of the passage, and showed us why and how he came to his conclusions.Prophecies never "clear" until it's been fulfilled. Pro seems to think that prophecies are no brainers and we always know exactly what to expect. This is not at all true. Even Abraham wondered how God would fulfill his promises to him. Btw, Pro, you can't use a book as you source with out quoting from it. I am not gonna read a whole book to look for what you're claiming to be true. B. Gather the Nation of Israel " (1) Very few people accepted Jesus as Messiah. In fact, Jesus was FAR from popular. " Because of the ministry of Jesus, people from every nation and tribe has become worshippers of the God of Israel. The word God became synonymous to the God of Israel. "(2) The prophecy clearly refers to a literal gathering to the nation of Israel and an end of exile--not to a return to G-d. " Can you tell us how that is "clearly" so? This is just another assertion. C. Usher in an Era of World Peace "Two things wrong with my partner's interpretation: (1) This is not metamorphic, and (2) The prophecy suggests that the Messiah will come, and EVERYONE will know the G-d of Israel. Moreover, when we look at Isaiah 53, it becomes clear that the prophecy is referring to the nation's astonashment at the rise of Israel. " Pro argues against my interpretation by simply saying that the passage is not metaphoric. I'd love to debate about Isaiah 53. "Who would have believed what we have heard" This is God's people speaking of the Messiah! If you want to debate on who Isaiah 53 is speaking of (nation of Israel or Jesus) I am open to that, but right now, we are in no way in agreement of that passage's interpretation. D. Spread Universal Knowledge of God That Will Unite Humanity as One " (1) There is god excuse to reject the belief in a god," The God of Israel is known throughout the world. His messiah's birth, death and resurrection is celebrated every year. The gospel is being preached in every corner of the earth. Jesus what we use as our dating system (B.C. and A.D.). This is not even a debate. Jesus is the one Jew that made the God of Israel the biggest, most dominant religion in history. No one else has accomplished this, and since Jesus already did, no one else can in the future. Anyone who rejects the God of Israel is more guilty of idolatry than ever before. "(2) The saying in Romans 14 is supposedly another far off prophecy that cannot be fulfilled., " No, when did I say that this prophecy can not be fulfilled? "(3) The ultimate revelation is not the resurrection and crucifixion of Jesus, rather it is the national revelation on Mount Sinai." This is an empty assertion by Pro. If not for the work of Jesus and his Church, only the Jews will know about Mount Sinai. Because of Jesus, an asian kid knows about the stories of Noah ark, of Abraham and his son Isaac, of Moses, of David and Goliath, of Samson, etc. etc. 2. PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF THE MESSIAHA. Son of David1. Both Mary and Joseph are from the house of David. Pro keeps insisting that because Joseph is not Jesus' biological father, that he can't be his legal father. Joseph was Jesus' legal father. This means Joseph can legally pass down everything he is and he has to Jesus. Jesus was a son of David both by blood through Mary, and by legal adoption through Josesph. There are other theories about the 2 genealogies of Jesus (Luke's and Matthew's) but one thing is clear, no one in Jesus' or the apostles' time argued against the claim that Jesus was from the house of David.2. No one translates Psalm 110 as "YHWH said to YHWH" it is in fact "YHWH said to adoni" or "The LORD said to my Lord". The point here is not that the messiah is called YHWH in this verse, the point is that David calls the messiah, "adoni" or "my lord". This implies that the messiah is greater than David. And I ask pro, just as Jesus asked the Pharisees, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet’?” 3. Solomon's line is cursed to never again hold the throne after Jechonia's sin (Jeremiah 24). Jesus being also a descendant of Nathan ensures his right to David's throne. B. Torah Observance "It does not matter if Jesus fulfilled them or not. The "Old Testament" laws are STILL applicable as the Torah is eternal. Moreover, throughout the rest of the New Testament, it is apparent that the early church believed that they were more than fulfilled, but abolished. [9] "I missed the argument here. More assertions by Pro with out any supporting arguments. Jesus himself said that he did not come to abolish the laws, but to fulfill them. If a prophecy is fulfilled, then it is fulfilled, and it is no longer applicable to anything. Same with laws. For example, the sacrificial laws are no longer binding since Jesus fulfilled them. Jesus is the ultimate and perfect sacrifice for sins. Animal sacrifices were types or foreshadows of the true sacrifice, and are no longer required or binding.And again, you tried to link us to a website to support an assertion. This is not how debates work, you have to state your arguments in the debate. Plus your link does not even work.I'm assuming Pro, dropped the his points about how the Messiah can not be God.C. Messiah as Prophet γενεὰ - genea Age, generation From (a presumed derivative of) genos; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons) -- age, generation, nation, time. [1] [1] Strong's Greek Concordance.