The Universe has always existed

Ill begin by thanking my peer for such a fine round. "The message is simple. What IS IS, and what IS not cannot be known. For it is not there to know about and so not there to claim. What IS IS the universe. It could never be what is not, because it is. (Sounds almost trivial but itï¿½€™s a really strong argument.)" I suppose in a sense you are correct. We really dont know, but that does not prevent us from observing what we can see and do know, and surmise likely scenarios. Thanks to sattelites, telescopes, etc. we are able to observe that there appears to be a limit to how far back in time the light we see from stars comes from. We are also able to observe what we believe to be the "edges" of the universe, some 15 or so billion light years away. So from that we can surmise that the universe is about 15 billion years old. "As long as something is there the universe exist. Something cannot from nothing, nor is matter ever created or destroyed, it only changes forms. A form being a different set of relations of matter or mind(idea) The constant changing in the universe need not a first cause for even that would be another change." There lies an inherent problem with this. The knowledge that something cannot come from nothing only comes from observing the way things naturallly happen within our universe or our existence. Without the universe with its set conditions of conservation of energy, space, time, etc. there is no existence. There can be no existence without the universe, before the universe in the state we currently observe, there was no energy, no space, no time, therefore, no existence. "4. The universe is always changing. (always has energy)" Correction, the universe always has NO net energy. In other words, this is why philosophers should stay away from science because generally they really dont have a clue as to what they are talking about. Something cannot be created from nothing, within the confines of existence as we know to be true. Yet for all intensive purposes, thanks to the existence of what is called positive and negative energy, we are able to observe that everything equals out and no energy is made, no energy is used, indeed the change, the expansion, appears to have come from nothing. This is not to say that energy does not exist now though, as we are able to observe, and harness it for our own means. Yet the fact still remains, creation, or existence, does not require energy to occur. "Second, because of the curious fact that gravity has negative energy, it takes no energy to make a universe. Despite the colossal amount of energy contained in every atom of matter, it is precisely balanced by the negativity of gravity."[1] One cannot make something out of nothing, yet the universe came from nothing, and it exists. Which would disprove that something cannot be made from nothing. "5. New things are forming and unforming. (unstabilized change of relations of matter and mind)" With no energy at all, with no energy as a catalyst for change, as that is all energy is really, a catalyst for change, how is there change? According what we are able to observe energy is a requirement for there to be change, but its really not, sooo, make your own conclusions from that. "6. The universe is the whole that is all. (via explaintion of elementary fallacy)" Yes, and before the universe there was nothing. Zilch, as you put it, time nor space existed, therefore there could be no existence as existence is merely a by- product of the space and time we now currently observe thanks to the creation or beginning of our universe. "Notness is not even that, it cannot be thought of, for even that would exist in the form of an idea or thought" and yet you still manage to explain it so well, "If you had brain damage causing a blind spot in your vision, and you were looking at somebody, you would see something like a head looking connected to legs, the middle is not dark but literally cut out of perception" Which just ties into my previous point that existence merely comes as a by-product of the Universe, and is inherently reliant upon space, time, or in other words, the current conditions we are able to observe in the universe as a whole. "That is one thing we could never know is notness therefore notness can never be and explanation, so the universe can only be known to exist. " Nonsense, essentially what you are saying is that, what we do not know does not exist, yet the universe existed before we as a species existed, and it will continue afterwards. Existence is not reliant upon us thinking of something, but rather it is reliant upon the natural laws that we currently observe. Natural Laws that were here before us and will continue to be for quite a considerable time. So now to briefly touch on the key points, 1) The Universe has an age, and thus a set time of existence. Something cannot exist before it actually exists, and without the universe and the natural laws that dictate the occurences within it, there is no existence. 2) The Universe was made out of nothing, i.e. no net energy gain or loss. 3) Just because we do not know, or have no way of describing a certain concept, or object, does not mean it does not exist. Our planet existed long before we as a species existed, and it will afterwards. Ill finish by explaining what is called, "Olber's Paradox." Also called the "Dark Night Sky" paradox. If the universe has always existed, and will always exist, then one can draw the conclusion that it must be infinite in size, with an infinite number of stars, infinite number of planets, so on and so forth. Yet what does the night sky have to do with this? Simple, if the universe has always existed, and there is an infinite number of stars, and infinite size, then if the universe is populated by an infinite number of stars, any sight line from Earth must end at the (very bright) surface of a star, so the night sky should be completely bright. This contradicts the observed darkness of the night. Thanks to Olbers paradox we are able to observe these things, 1) The Universe is not infinite in size 2) The Universe is expanding 3) The Universe because it is not infinite, and because it is expanding, has an age 4) If the Universe has an age, then like anything else that is born or made, before it was, it was not, and as such did not exist Vote Con. -------- Sources 1) http://www.telegraph.co.uk...