The Central Principle of Christianity is IMMORAL

Hi Philosurfer, thanks for your rebuttals and comments and no I don't believe you are being harsh or making barbed statements intentionally, no problem with that. It's clear that we obviously have different world views which is great for debate. Just before I start with my rebuttals, I wanted to make it clear to you what my first statement said in effect. I don't think you applied that overriding statement to any of my further comments, which is why you think I was all over the place in essence. I would read it again just to make sure you understand it properly. It can be a little tricky otherwise to take my arguments seriously if you don't apply the nature of the triune God in context and as an overarching theme here and the issue of sacrifice. With that said, I think you also misapply my comment on who's eligible for redemption or salvation. What I said was that there are many cases where mitigating circumstances would and hopefully necessarily have to apply. You didn't seem to notice that at all. I don't think for a minute anybody who has no contact with the Biblical God would automatically be sent to hell. So for these instances, I myself personally am reserving judgement on this and it's not really the topic of the debate. I did not want to get bogged down in discussions of eligibilty etc. So my overriding statement is that God would rightfully and hopefully judge according to what is in a man's heart or mind and the knowledge that he may have at any time. That's all, and I think it's a fair statement to make and good for framing this debate. We gotta start somewhere I think you'll agree. Also the later use of statistics to prove something is totally disingenuous I'm afraid. I know how it all works. And I'm not sure what you were even trying to prove there. For example the statistics garnered would show no example of the form used to collect that data. Maybe there's not a box on the form for atheist, hence default position Christian. Dood really have you never heard there's lies, damn lies and then statistics. It just doesn't wash with me. Yes, I've studied statistics, one wrong move and you can make anything seem real if you want it to. A tool that somehow tries to influence opinion in rags and mags. I'm truly sad now, I am :-) I won't rebut anything in that section, as I could just argue that the decline of Christian teaching of morality in the West has caused all of these problems in the first place. Statistics, not good. Estimated 250 million people killed by their own governments in the 20th century alone based on Marxist materialist philosophy. Nice. So to go on and clear a few things up, with my preceding comments in hand hopefully. I would like to know first off where you think you get your idea of natural human empathy and compassion from. They're all lovely words and they make you feel warm and good inside, but where is it from? From your perspective we are essentially animals right? Altruism and charity is therefore not really normal in a materialistic and purely physical world, but we all like to be thought of as good and defend it at any cost. That's really odd, why do we like to be thought of as 'good' ? Just a thought. No, I believe I'm a moral person because we were all made that way. But it goes wrong, doesn't it. Does that mean I sin, yes by the nature of being human and interacting with the environment and other people. Your idea of morality is different to mine. You will just go with whatever is cool or happening in society, whereas I will look to a higher standard to base my life upon. Society generally tends downwards over time, I will try to improve myself upwards towards an impossible standard. So essentially, even though I cause no harm to anybody on purpose, I cause harm to myself which you may not see as sin, but I do. Again where do you get your ideas of right and wrong to judge people? You're a relativist, so you will change over time, whether it's right or wrong to me, it doesn't matter. You place yourself on a pedestal of moral superiority in essence, and you don't even know you're doing it. Pride and lifting yourself up against God, in essence is the starting point for all sin in mankind. Just look at history, it's not pretty. You worship yourself and other men essentially, I worship God as my creator and His plan for mankind's salvation is evident from the start. Scapegoating. I have to presume you have fairly good knowledge of the history of man in the Bible, and I don't think you think it is some sort of fairy story. I don't think we debate fairy stories here do we? So, I have to presume we have a disagreement on the understanding of it only. Man was created perfect, then by the deception of Satan, man fell into a state of sin against God. He rebelled essentially, as he disobeyed God. He experienced a spiritual death as such, as he now had the knowledge of good and evil and felt the shame or guilt of that sin. He moved away from a spiritual oneness with God who is morally perfect. The sacrifice of an animal to therefore cover the sins or repent of those sins of the subsequent generations was the normal practise. From that generation down of God's people this is what they were instructed to do. All around people were being sacrificed to strange gods throughout that same time period, so in context I think I know who had the moral high-ground there. If you read the Bible, you will follow that the Hebrews fell in and out of favour with God because of their transgressions against Him. It's so clear the struggle of man against God's commands has been evident throughout history. Through pride, greed, money, power and control of others it has led mankind to state of permanent rebellion against the very basic teachings in the Bible. You can cowboy up as it were and stop following the herd, and personally take responsibility for yourself and others. That's the only way change will come. Even Lucifer descended as an angel of light, probably promising peace and security, but he's a very deceptive character of course. I know who my guide is, and it isn't any man. Look around, why would it be? So Jesus as a scapegoat? Who do you think Jesus reserved His most consternation for, if you read what He had to say? Was it the people in general sinning, nope. It was the very organisation that essentially did not teach simply the Law of Moses and love of the one true God, but oral traditions of the elders added to constantly by the Pharisees and High Priests. He basically called them all hypocrites as they mislead the people away from God and His commands, and therefore from ever knowing God in their hearts and minds. They were not acting within the spirit of God. So, is He condemning the people or the powers exercising spiritual control over them? Get to know that, as every single religion that has been in existent since has done this, Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, some Christian churches. We don't need mediators when the Bible is clear as day in it's message. Jesus, as God remember, in the form of a man only, came to end the sacrificial system of the Hebrews, and to send His message to the whole of the world, Hebrews and Gentiles alike. This was to ultimately end the special relationship between His people and that all man could now become a part of spiritual Israel or Jerusalem if you like. So yes God, in a man's body only, sacrificed Himself for the salvation of humanity and therefore to put humanity back on course to move toward a spiritual oneness with Himself. That's what I call altruistic. You having little regard to the situation apply your superior morality and accuse anyone who believes in that as immoral. Sorry, you just sound so arrogant and you must be rather ignorant in not seeing the world for what it is. What do men hope to accomplish with their thinking and ideals? Peace and security...... It won't ever happen, Satan is a deceiver of the worst kind. More rebuts in the next round, no space left....