Resolved: A living human can never live their lives without sinning. A sinless Perfection debate.

What a refreshing experience. Someone that will discuss this topic without flailing insults and emotional arguments. I can't say I'm surprised as the qualifying questions showed a person that thinks and not just emotes, but that takes nothing away from my appreciation at the chance to discuss this topic. I'll quickly address Mr. Philo's arguments, then present the case in opposition which will show HOW a person could live from a point forward in their lives without sinning. Mostly, I'll be addressing perpetuated mindsets and deconstructing them, to get to a more cohesive presentation that fits together with less bumps. It's nice to have a working definition of CAN/CAN'T in this debate. I'll hold the position that man can't help but sin from birth forward, UNTIL a change is made in their character and when the change is complete from that moment forward they can not sin again. I'm going to agree with the first contention that we have a deceitful heart. Our heart is corrupt and has a sin disposition, which paul addresses as SARX or sinful nature. When Paul says by our nature we are Children of Wrath, I think it's a picture of our sinful nature, puts us in the predicament of sinning, *(you obey either flesh or spirit). And a presumption most make is that we will have that sinful nature until we die. Mostly this is because of the literal translation of FLESH for the word Sarx. We'll get into this a bit more below. The second contention I have to grant as well. All people sin. For all have sinned..... Not a man is born that doesn't sin except the Christ. So we can all agree that we are born with a sinful disposition/nature and that it pulls our strings towards a ME FIRST behavior that is sinful. The third contention however, we need to spend a little time on. "If people don't sin, God's nature isn't evident." *God is love. God's love is exhibited in more ways than just forgiveness. ** If God's love is ONLY forgiveness, from what He condemns us for in the first place, then God is a tyrant, or a Fascist. ***In Matthew 5 we see God's love is expressed to His enemies by providing them sun and rain... Let's just make that their necessisities are provided, God doesn't withold from them because they aren't "in the boat with Him." **** God's love is much more than just forgiveness. Man tends to focus on the forgiveness aspect so much because we are a ME FIRST nature still. So our first priority is to take care of self, thus our first definition of God is one that seems we are taken care of. I.E. salvation/atonement. I'd argue that the nature of God has been reduced to a point that God is both the threat and the solution, and that He's presented in such an oppressive fashion, "SINNER'S PRAYER OR BURN!" that people forget the other significant parts out of fear for missing the salvation part. So, while GOD is a forgiving God, that isn't His only purpose. If a person got to a point that they no longer sinned, God would still be God and that person would still be His instrument of righteousness. Mr. Philo then observed that everybody must sin.... which is true. But this position doesn't prove that everyone will continue to sin forever. So while I have sinned, and still sin, that doesn't present a convincing position that one will continue to sin. In fact, ultimately to say that is the case is to strip God of Omnipotence. (A bit hyperbolic but logically accurate...) I'm also going to admit that no one can resist his will. And that is ultimately where we are going to find the case made from. What IS His Will? Ultimately the argument presented here from Mr. Philo is centered around God's "purpose" is to reveal His Glory to us, and that glory is the forgiveness of sins. And, while I understand the nature and the heart behind the claim, the claim itself, if true, sure does have God doing the servanthood, not being LORD. His purpose is to serve us? His purpose is to reveal His Glory to US? That GLORY is a self serving thing for ME? NO matter how I come at this thought, it centers around me. I would contend it's not about me. It's about His will, and His expectations, and His enabling presence in our lives. I will only be what HE wills me to be. I will only achieve what HE wishes to achieve through me. So there are a couple of things we need to determine. IS God's intention for us to be at a point where we no longer sin? Is there a mechanism in place that can enable us to that end? 1. His Will.... My argument here will revolve around change. I'll keep it simple because of space. His plan is to change My heart and my Mind so that I think and feel as He does. Christ commanded we LOVE as perfectly (maturely) as God does. Matt 5:43-48. If we don't love correctly, we aren't in Him and He's not in us. 1 john 4:16-18 We are born with the sinful nature. We are given atonement, then we battle obedience, then we receive a benefit, and the benefit, not my ability leads to that final sanctification of being made different, vs just seen or looked upon as different. Rom 6:22. That benefit is His Spirit, romans 8:9/Gal 5:16, His Seed 1 john 3:9, His person 1 john 5:18, and that benefit is what makes it possible. It's God in you that makes it happen, not your ability. 2. His Spirit keeps you from giving into temptation, His Spirit, if indwelling you, has replaced your flesh nature. It's removed by Christ, not your ability, col 2:11. What makes you do what you don't wanna do and not do what you wanna do rom 7:14-26ish... is no longer there to pull your hand and is replaced by His Spirit Rom 8:9 that keeps you from giving into temptation, gal 5:16. HIS goal is to change you. HIS Goal is to provide the means for you to be changed and remain changed. Jesus purpose isn't just to save us. Although I'm thankful for that part of His purpose. He wishes to mature us. Through HIM we are made mature. Mature is that its no longer me who lives (sinful nature is removed), but HE who lives in me (holy spirit resides after that removal.) He is the vine, we are the branch. We just hold His fruit, that He produces, and determines which branch will bear it. But it's HIS FRUIT, HIS nourishment, HIS WILL that brings the fruit to be. By bearing that fruit we grow in love as that fruit is loving service to someone, somehow. And through works, led by the Church, we grow in Unity and knowledge of Christ, until we are perfect/mature/finished. How mature is that? As fully and completely as the Christ Himself was. EPh 4:11-17. This little gem of scripture shows you to be as mature as Christ was. Either Christ still sinned, or once a person was that mature they wouldn't sin. This maturity, and this accomplishment is done not by man but by God, WHEN man gets out of the way and allows it. If you would be perfect (complete mature, same word as the perfect in the Eph 4 vss) surrender your former life/sell all your belongings/be dead to your former life, and come to me fully dependant on me....(Christ's words to the Rich Young Ruler.) He was discussing what is mature, which is after atonement/salvation. Blessed are the POOR in Spirit. Check the meaning of the Greek word for Poor there. Dependant on Him. APply that Greek meaning of Poor with the story of the RYR and accept that "perfect" word to mean what it means, and you have the plan for a man/woman on earth to be made mature/perfect, which results in a person that no longer sins from that point forward. While I can't claim to know this person, only God can judge that state, I can attest to Biblical claimants. ALSO I don't know anyone that has been resurrected from a 3 day death either, but I also believe that because of the witnesses...