Endogenous Retroviruses are not evidence for evolution, as shown by Daniel Nahum

PROPOSITION 1: Retroviral DNA does not show apparent link between mammals and other classes of animals. .. REBUTTAL: This statement is simply not true 135 vertebrates were sequenced for ERVs(1), and the article released by scientists from Department of Biological Sciences, Imperial College, UK provides sufficient evidence to show that the distribution of ERVs matches the expected hierarchical distribution of animals with accordance to what we expect to see if evolution is true. PROPOSITION 2: ". .. fish and humans have a common ancestor however they do not share any ERVs as we would expect if evolution is true. " REBUTTAL: Again, my opponent offers an unsubstantiated claim. Zebrafish and humans share ERV-9 (2), this has been confirmed by MIT scientists. But the mere fact that we can show that humans and chimpanzees share a common ancestor via ERVs should be enough to disprove my opponent's position that God created humans in a special case of creation. PROPOSITION 3: ". .. evolutionists claim that since fish and humans share a very oldancestor. .. " REBUTTAL: There are several genus of Retroviruses, the fact is that different genus of retroviruses tend to infect different genus of animals, plants, etc. For example, RS and MMV like ERVs infect vertebrates only, there are others who only infect aquatic animals; TY3/Gypsi infect plants, insects and nematode; BEL only infect lower chordates and insects (3). As a matter of fact, there are retroviruses that ONLY infect humans, such as HIV. .. so it's not surprising that we may see retroviruses which are unique to one genome or another. PROPOSITION 4: "This argument also assumes evolution to be true, so which one is it? a) ERVs prove evolution b) Evolution proves ERV" REBUTTAL: Evolution does not prove ERVs, but ERVs prove evolution. .. you can't have it the other way around. ERVs are just evidence/facts, they're not a theory so they can't be "proven", they just are! The gravitational theory does not prove the attraction between bodies with mass, but the attraction between bodies with mass proves the gravitational theory. .. PROPOSITION 5: "According to talk origins finding an ERV in dogs and humans but not in other primates would falsify evolution. .. " REBUTTAL: Indeed it would. .. it's very unlikely that humans and dogs can share ERVs when NONE of the other primates share the same ERVs with humans, it borders in the line of impossibility, just like it borders on the line of impossibility that we see 16 K-Class ERVs infecting the EXACT SAME location of the human and chimp genome. The full statement form talkorigins, courtesy of my opponent: "For instance, it would be incredibly unlikely for dogs to also carry the three HERV-K insertions that are unique to humans. .. since none of the other primates have these retroviral sequences. " (4) PROPOSITION 6: "Another problem is that The argument on ERVs assumes that retroviral DNA is junk DNA, this assumption is known to be wrong in at least some cases" REBUTTAL: This is an irrelevant statement, the functionality of ERV transcribed genetic code is irrelevant to the fact that the ONLY way ERVs can be shared in the genome of two separate species is if the species share a common ancestor. It doesn't matter of the code has function or not, there is only one way to get it in the genome! PROPOSITION 7: "Why did ERVs evolve as if they where designed? " REBUTTAL: Because that's what happens when things evolve- they start to look designed :). PROPOSITION 8: "Why did God created ERVs to look as if evolution were true? But this question is simply out of place. .. " REBUTTAL: Actually I demand that you answer that question, since I answered yours :). PROPOSITION 9: "How do they know that ERVs came from retroviruses? The only thing that we really know is that ERVs and retroviruses are similar (almost identical)" REBUTTAL: First of all- ERVs ARE retroviruses, it's in the name, Endogenous Retroviruses (ERV)! Well how do we know the sun is actually burning? It certainly looks like it's on fire, it's almost identical to fire. .. oh well, I guess we can't trust the scientists on that one either! However, it's an undeniable fact: ERVs are everywhere and our understanding of them is sufficient enough to conclude that the only way they can get in the exact same location of the genome of two separate species is via a common ancestor! PROPOSITION 10: "In other words it is my hypothesis that God created the genome with ERVs and after the fall some ERVs become infectious retroviruses" REBUTTAL: Back to my previous question, why would God put the ERVs in the EXACT same location of the chimpanzee and human genomes? Why would God put ERVs in the genomes so that all animals look like they evolved? Is he playing a trick on people? Is that some kind of running joke he has with the Angels? Like he wakes up one day and says: "Look at these fools out there, thinking that those ERVs REALLY point to evolution! " and all the Angels chuckle with God. .. If ERVs are the result of the fall of man, then they couldn't have been part of the common design scheme where God re-used the same genetic code for many different animals, since the fall of man was AFTER all the animals (and man) were created! Therefore it makes it even less logical that the ERVs would be in the EXACT same place in the genome of humans and chimps! PROPOSITION 11: "it is impossible to falsify the argument on ERVs, every single possible scientific discovery would fit in to the evolutionary model. " REBUTTAL: You can't falsify facts, ERVs are facts and they can't be falsified! You can't falsify the fact that the sun is shining, that doesn't make sense. .. What you can falsify is a theory, there are many ways to falsify the theory of evolution, for example: - Find a Precambrian bunny. - Find a mammal species with 7 toes/fingers. - Find an invertebrate reptile. . .. and so on. CONCLUSION: My opponent has not provided any reliable and fact substantiated arguments in this debate. .. as a matter of fact most of his propositions are gross misinterpretations that border on the line of deliberate misinformation! (1) . http://jvi.asm.org... (2) . http://www.pnas.org... (3) Viruses and the Evolution of Life By Luis P. Villarreal, p 208. (4) . http://www.talkorigins.org...