God/s exist in GRRMs World of Ice and Fire

Con has re-stated his argument that the accidental nature of the resurrection of Beric Dondarrion by Thoros of Myr proves that no outside agent could be responsible or an accessory to the resurrection. I agree that the nature of the resurrection was accidental, but that does not mean that the resurrection was not incidental to an outside agent other than Thoros. Con gives only two options; that R’hllor acted independently, or that R’hllor does not exist. I agree with con that there is no evidence that R’hllor has ever acted independently. However, the intent of the human agent is inconsequential in the event of the existence of a secondary, supernatural agent. What is of consequence is that Thoros conducted the funeral rite and invoked R’hllor. The intent of Thoros in conducting the funeral rite is of no more consequence in proving agency than proving that 911 operators do not exist if the number is dialed accidentally. What proves their existence is that that emergency services arrive after being called, not the intent of the caller. In fact, the accidental nature of the initial resurrection of Beric Donarrion lends greater support to the idea that a second agent was involved. The alternative is that Thoros, without aid, somehow resurrected Beric accidentally and without intent. If intent is required than the existence of a second agent is necessary for the initial resurrection of Beric to have taken place. Con argues that the only Red Priests are able to resurrect in the particular manner that they do because they are the only ones trained to do so. Yet there is evidence that resurrections can be performed and visions seen in flames by others. Beric Dondarrion was able to resurrect Catelyn Stark, and Stannis Baratheon was able to prognosticate without either having been trained as Red Priests. The two instances are evidence that disputes the claim that an agent needs to be a Red Priest or be trained in a Red Temple in order to perform the magic associated with R’hllor. What does seem to be required is that the agent be a believer of R’hllor, and invoke or petition R’hllor. If belief and invocation/petition were not required, then some third party should be able to perform the same magic simply through observation. This has not been the case. Con again argues that the vagueness of the visions received by Melisandre proves that R’hllor does not exist. As evidence he shows the misinterpretation of Alys Karstark as Arya Stark by Melisandre. It is clear however, that the visions are visions only. There is no explanation given. This is the source of the misinterpretations made by Melisandre. She is granted visions of the things she requests, but does not understand them. My claim that the vagueness of the visions lies in the interpretation, and thus is the fault of the interpreter, stands. Con has argued that it is clear that R’hllor wishes to spread his faith and his inability to do so proves his inexistence. However, the evidence con uses to support this argument are the actions of the Red Priests Melisandre and Moqorro. These actions provide evidence only of the desires of two of his Priests. Thoros of Myr seems to be just as devout a Priest and does not demand conversion from anyone. Nor does Melisandre and Moqorro for that matter, who habitually work with non-believers. There is no evidence that either the Red Priests or R’hllor are “obsessed with people believing in him” as con claims. Even if we were to grant that R’hllor was obsessed with conversion, not only are there possible reasons that R’hllor could not create “undeniable proof” which con demands, but I have also given a third possibility why a deity could not provide this proof in the World of Ice and Fire. The reason being that George RR Martin does not wish to utilize a deity as a deus ex machina. Con argues that due to lack of proof that either R’hllor is handicapped or a fool, that his third option, that R’hllor does not exist, but be true through logic. Thus con’s logical syllogism seems to be: 1. Everything that exists must show proof of its existence 2. There is no proof that R’hllor is a fool or handicapped 3. Thus, R’hllor does not exist Yet, we know from experience that proof is a matter of discovery. The fact that there is no proof that R’hllor is a fool or handicapped is not logical proof that he does not exist, any more then DNA does not exist before it is discovered by Friedrich Miescher. The first premise of the syllogism is false. Things may exist without proof, because proof is point of view dependent. But there remains more proof that R’hllor does exist then proof that he does not. In the same manner that one can suppose the existence of DNA or black holes, before they are proved to exist. Through the experience of the effects that these objects create. Con has argued that the incidence of the guilty winning a trial by combat, or the innocent losing, is proof that the gods invoked do not intervene, are not benevolent, or do not exist. Again, con gives two reasonable possibilities over the possibility that R’hllor does not exist. It is possible that R’hllor, or the Seven, do not wish to intervene, for their own purposes, or are not benevolent deities. To this I will add two other possibilities, that either the Seven or R’hllor have their own motives, or are unable to intervene in that way at all. There are several possible motives the Seven could have in allowing Tyrion to lose his second trial by combat. It could be the Seven wanted Tyrion to go to Essos and meet Danerys Stormborn. It could be that R’hllor did not believe that Sandor Clegane’s crime should be punishable by death. The possibilities are endless. What we do know for certain is that if these gods did have the ability to effect who wins or loses a trial by combat, it could not be in an obvious deus ex machina way, because George RR Martin eschews this use. Con argues that because there is no evidence of transcendent supernatural beings, while there is evidence that material supernatural beings do exist in the World of Ice and Fire, that it lends credence to the argument that transcendent beings do not exist in the series. Yet as I have shown, there is ample evidence of the existence of a transcendent being in the World of Ice and Fire. Transcendent, immaterial beings can only be viewed by their effects. They cannot be viewed directly in the manner that a material supernatural being is. The proof that pro is demanding is impossible due to the very nature of the subject’s immateriality and transcendence. In closing, I would like to sum up my argument with the proof I have given that R’hllor, a supernatural transcendent being, exists in the World of Ice and Fire. 1. Only Red Priests of R’hllor, or believers of R’hllor, can perform the specific magical acts that are associated with them. Con has argued that this is due to training, but I have shown that believers have been able to accomplish the same magical actions without formal training. 2. These specific magical actions can only be performed through invocation of R’hllor. Con claims that anyone can perform these magical actions without invoking or believing in R’hllor, but has provided no evidence that this is the case, because there is none. 3. Some of these specific magical actions, such as prognostication, can be tailored by the user through request. This points to an intelligent supernatural being as an agent in the magic. 4. With the preponderance of evidence pointing to the existence of R’hllor as an agent in the magic performed by his believers, and the lack of evidence that R’hllor is a material being, it is reasonable to assume that R’hllor is an immaterial, transcendent being. I would like to thank Stannis_Lawyer again for the opportunity to debate this issue here. It has been lots of fun. Please vote.