Metal takes more skill than Rap

Thanks MrHardRock. Pro: "My opponent obviously trying to be witty tries to insult me in clever ways. He in his last post countered very little of what my argument said and only insulted me." I am truly sorry that my opponent found my summary of his round insulting, this was not my intention and my criticisms were meant to be constructive. As for being witty, I can't really help that; I guess it's a curse. ;) Careful reading of my last post will however reveal that I did in fact respond to every point he made, although I couldn't assess all of his statements because it was often unclear what video he was referring to. Pro: "I proved that metal takes more skill didn't I?" In the nicest possible way, no you didn't. To prove something you need to cite examples that illustrate your claims and explain exactly how they prove your points. Pointing someone to a video is not the same as proving an argument. ___ Pro: "Hip Hop takes no skill other than writing and composing lyrics..." Hang on a minute, we've already briefly discussed DJing, scratching and turntablism but what about other musical aspects such as beatboxing and of course hip hop production. Making a quality hip hop beat is a skilled task, from hooking up a loop to programming a drum beat and applying compression and other effects, these are all complex skills that need to be learned and developed. Also, MCing does not only involve writing/composition, it of course entails vocal performance as well. Pro: "...apart from the few bands that use REAL instruments such as Cypress Hill." "Hip Hop artist use no instruments in the recording or live performances" Contrary to popular belief and my opponent's assertions there are many, many hip hop acts that incorporate 'real' instruments in their music. For some, the band of musicians is as integral to the whole creative and recording process as the rapper(s), many use live instruments alongside samples in their recordings and a great number use live bands to recreate their music in front of an audience. I shall give some examples. The Roots http://en.wikipedia.org... With 8 albums and 18 years touring experience The Roots' line-up has always included drums, bass, keyboards and percussion and now features guitar as well. Incidentally, the guitarist (who has the unlikely name of Kirk Douglas) wore a Black Sabbath T-shirt when they came and played in Birmingham (mine and Ozzy's home town) which I thought was cool. The Beastie Boys http://en.wikipedia.org... MCs Mike D, MCA and Ad-Rock play drums, bass and guitar respectively. Having started off as hardcore punk band they have blended their musicianship and rhyming skills throughout their career. Their first album (produced by Heavy Metal godfather Rick Rubin) premiered rock-rap months before Aerosmith and Run DMC told us to "Walk This Way" and although the masterpiece Paul's Boutique and their two most recent albums are more sample based, their classic 90s albums Check Your Head and Ill Communication included rock, metal and bugged out funk instrumentals. These albums also feature the keyboard skills of Money Mark and percussion from Eric Bobo who also worked with Cypress Hill. Sugarhill Gang http://en.wikipedia.org... Hip hop's first hit record Rapper's Delight features live musicians, the rhythm track is copied from Good Times by Chic and many mistakenly believe it is an example of early sampling. Subsequent Sugarhill hip hop recordings had an awesome lineup of musicians including drummer Keith Leblanc, bassist Doug Wimbush and guitarist Little Axe. The Goats http://www.rollingstone.com... This Philly crew's under-rated second album features an 8 piece backing band and guest appearances from the original black punks Bad Brains. Stetsasonic http://en.wikipedia.org... These old school legends prided themselves on being a live band as well as a hip hop crew. LA Afro-Cuban band Ozomatli make hip hop music, Delicious Vinyl released an album in 93 with The Brand New Heavies backing a host of rappers, KMD's classic album Black Bastards features live bass, UK trip hoppers like Massive Attack and Portishead frequently use live musicians and even orchestras, Wu Tang's last full album 8 Diagrams is awash with electric guitar and their more recent mini-album Chamber Music is entirely live instruments. Similar to my claims about MCs who don't use auto tune, I know I can provide hundreds of examples of hip hop tunes with "real" instruments. Well known hip hop acts I have personally witnessed performing live with a full band include The Roots (of course), Public Enemy (who also worked with Anthrax in the 90s), Arrested Development, The Pharcyde and Roots Manuva. There are loads of live hip hop bands in my area. My band Munchbreak play hip hop based around live instruments and I've performed with several other bands as a rapper and/or scratch DJ, Birmingham based Soweto Kinch plays jazz sax and raps with a full band and Cantaloop from Wolverhampton are another live hip hop band. Also if the turntable isn't a 'real' instrument and scratch DJs aren't 'real' musicians then what the hell are we doing and getting paid for when we perform or record with bands? ___ Pro: "Hip hop artist also preform with little to no energy" I guess the simplest way to refute this is by providing examples of energetic hip hop performances, see vids. ___ Pro: "I encourage you to use some of the worst examples of metal." I think there is more value in discussing the merits of music rather than criticising it. ___ Pro: "He says he taught his five year old daughter to play a back beat in five minutes, but it takes months to learn how to crab with any control. Now add guitar and bass to that back beat" Well then you would also have to add lyrics, rapping, production, mixing and other aspects of DJing as well, you can't just put a crab scratch on a record and sell it. It seems my opponent concedes that the individual act requires more skill in manual dexterity, at least he does not refute it. ___ Chris Cornell v POS I'm really sorry but I don't know who POS is so I can't really comment on him but I'm willing to accept Pro's contention that he has a great voice that is nevertheless inferior to the voice of Chris Cornell. What it's important to consider though is that while singing ability is indeed a skill that can be developed, it is very much dependant on the natural voice. Vocal tone is important in rapping but probably less important than flow and lyrics; one can become a great rapper with an unremarkable voice but not a great singer. This is a debate about skill, not about talent. Don't get me wrong, of course it takes talent to rap and skill to sing but rapping is more about developed skill and singing is more about natural talent. http://www.youtube.com... http://www.youtube.com... http://www.youtube.com... ___ Eddie Vedder v Common. I'm willing to concede to my opponent that Eddie does have a more "powerful voice" than Com and can project emotion better with his voice. Again though I would argue that this is more of a natural ability than a learned skill. I think Common's skill in writing lyrics is far superior to Vedder's and since my opponent has dropped the argument about lyrics across the two genres and as he considers Com such an emotive MC, I can only assume that he agrees. Vedder may be more talented but Common is more skilled. ___ I will try to avoid making new arguments that my opponent can't respond to in the last round and will just refute any new points he makes and summarise the debate. Thanks. Con.