Christian God = Loving Father

"You have no right to judge the laws of the ancient Hebrews, as their time and culture is different than yours. Those laws may seem unjust to you as a modern day citizen, but back then, those laws may have been the best moral code for people living in that time period. Unless you can point to some basis for an objective moral code (something higher than societal constructs), you cannot win this debate, as I have established my objective moral code which does allow me to prove you wrong." I absolutely have the right to judge the Hebrew laws. The problem here is that you think those laws came from God. They came from men which illustrated the ignorance from that time. To say that was the best moral code for them is in the Hebrew texts is a fallacy. It would not be an acceptable morality in any time period that is concerned with ETHICS. That must be a scary word for you. To me ethics trump the objective morality you would find in the mosaic laws. Ethics will be my higher power. If you cannot accept that I will have every right to be frustrated with you my friend. I was racking my brain trying to figure out why I was not getting anywhere with you.. I was using the wrong word. So my objective morality comes from ethics! Ethic 1.a. A set of principles of right conduct. b. A theory or a system of moral values. 2.The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy. "Con, you again equate different conceptions of God into the same mythological being. The ancient Hebrews attributed their God to the Creator of the universe, while Greek and Roman Gods were created deities that were gods of different natural processes." I just noticed a pattern.. that's all. While Poseidon is the "God of the sea". The Hebrew "God" is just taking that concept further as "God of existence". My belief just takes that one step further. God is not the God of anything... God just is. Also you should notice I was very careful when I made that statement.. I said " it seems that they are the same" not "they are the same"! "Even though Con is arguing from moral relativism (which means he has no right to argue against another culture's laws), I will answer his claims based on an objective perspective." From an ethical stand point: Of course I have the right to decide on what is considered intolerable human behavior.. no matter what era you are from. "Do unto others..." never changes! With this debate I put the Hebrew god under the same ethical micro scope and was not happy with what I saw.. hence my emotional reaction that does tend to get me in trouble with these types of debates. It is hard not letting these things get to me, but that is my problem and irrelevant.. moving on! "In the ancient Hebrew culture, they did not have the privilege of having a criminal justice system. They did not have a police force. When people violated the laws, they were stoned. This was the best way to deal with lawbreaking at that time in history. They did not have jails to send the wicked to, nor did they have an elaborate judicial system- the manpower was seriously lacking." The man power was the responsibility of the citizen's (as always). and they blew it (as always)! Here are a few examples of why people were stoned! The last one is my favorite! If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27 "Slavery in the Bible is not akin to the slavery that took place in America. Slavery in the Bible was akin to being an employee at a job and having a boss. You were treated well. And after six years you received enough money to go free and live on your own. It's actually a wonderful system that allowed almost no poor people." Yeah I did the research too.. First off, seems funny that anyone but the Israelites could be bought and sold into slavery. In fact making an Israelite a slave is punishable by death. Seems like whoever came up with that law had the Israelites best interest in mind! (I'm sure the "Chosen ones" should be privileged.. what a bunch of garbage!) Also the slaves were mostly war victims. Sure seemed nice of them to take in the war torn families.. Would have been nicer to consider them equal instead of farm equipment. The reason they had slaves, was the same reason we had them... It was NOT a charity! Plus what did they do after the seven years of slavery? Go find another master? Either way ethics is ethics and slavery is inhumane and should not be tolerated in any society! "God did not condone rape. Rape is a horrendous thing. God made laws that, provided the terrible thing of rape having occurred, then there were ways to deal with it. " If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.' 2 Samuel 12:11-14 There really is no other way to interpret these passages. The rape victim often gets punished for being raped! The second verse I added to the examples of reasons to be stone helps with my point as well! You keep making excuses for concepts that should make your skin crawl.. but they do not. Leaving me to suspect that your holy book has left your mind jaded! You will defend your God no matter how despicable he is.. very scary thought! "Con quotes from the Scriptures that describe a fiery place for where the wicked will go. But that is it- it described a fiery place. Jesus says "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Jesus clearly says that the soul of the wicked is destroyed in hell. That is, hell is not a place of eternal torment- it is a place that destroys the soul. You become annihilated; nonexistent. This is fair for those who reject God and wish for no afterlife." You should tell 90 percent of the existing Christians in the world that story. They will say that you are secular and only believe what you want without respect for the integrity of the bible. They are spreading the gospel of eternal torment.. you better let them know they have it wrong. Besides, whether they are tortured or annihilated still not the actions of a "loving father" I tried to explain to you before that you do not forsake your own child.. That is a prerequisite for being labeled "a good father"! From an ethical perspective! If I were going to come up with a God who cares.. he would actually have empathy and compassion. Not act like a child who thinks everyone needs to OBEY him or perish!!! "Con, I strongly urge you to find some sort of objective morality" Found it!