It is a good and holy act for Christians to honor Mary and ask her intercession #2

ROUND 4 Rebuttal. "Before I begin I would like to make a note that the voters should keep in mind concerning my opponent's last round. Nowhere in this debate was it agreed that every single argument needs Scripture to support it." My opponent in ROUND 1: " Since we are both Christians, the Bible will be considered the Word of God." this clearly contradicts the above statement. I have provided MULTPLE scriptures NOT single ones. "My opponent began with arguments against Catholic tradition which have no bearing on this debate. ." If Christ states that 'your traditions nullify the word of God' and the word of God is our plumb line then it clearly does have a bearing on this debate. "Honoring Mary Please keep in mind that I need one of these first two contentions to prove that we should ‘honor' Mary, not that we should ‘pray to her'. That topic is under "Mary's Intercession"." These topics cannot be separated: if we exult Mary to the same status as Christ we do NOT honour her, if we do not honour the facts of her life regarding virginity etc we do NOT honour her; we worship her. "P3- Christ honored Mary "He honoured her; He NEVER prayed to her." My opponent has proved my point for me. He agrees that Christ ‘honored' Mary which is all that this contention is meant to prove." Quite the contrary: that Christ honoured Mary is beyond dispute. We are arguing whether Catholics honour Mary. I have conclusively shown they do not "P2- following Scripture "There is no command in scripture to pray to Mary." Once again we are only seeing here that we should ‘honor' Mary which is what this passage is certainly saying." Praying to Mary Dishonours her as it is an unscriptural man made tradition that nullifies the Word of God. "C1- We should call Mary ‘blessed' "Calling Mary blessed honours God, NOT Mary." I agree that this honors God since it was an act of God to make her Christ's mother, but it also honors Mary since she was the one whose ‘yes' to Gabriel allowed God to make her His mother. Any honor we give to any person (whether it be a parent, glorious war general, or capable political leader) is due to some God given talent. Thus honoring these people also honors God, but it is honor none the less." To this John replied, "A person can receive only what is given them from heaven." So, even Mary's 'yes' was a gift from God and so glorifies Him and Him alone. Catholics are simply transferring God and His Sons glory to Mary. John 5:23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. "Mary's Intercession Contention 1: prayer is good P1- others prayers "Asking others to pray for us and praying to someone in heaven are completely different acts with no connection in scripture what so ever." My opponent has agreed then that it is a good thing for us to ask people on earth for prayers. What he contests is that the people in heaven are different somehow. What he fails to show, however, is why. Mark 12:26-27 "‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'[d]? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Those in heaven are just as alive as those on earth." I cannot argue 'from omission' -I cannot defend every doctrine that is not in the Bible and so could be true. Mark 12:24-27 Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'[a]? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!" The above verses refer to judgment day, the resurrection of the DEAD, as that day has not come they must still be dead. (to us, not to God) "P2- holiness = better prayers My opponent agreed to this. P3- Mary was holy "'Was' being the operative word." As shown earlier, God is a God of the living and not of the dead. Mary is just as alive to him as you and I. Otherwise, my opponent has agreed that Mary was holy." God invented time and exists outside of it so, yes, all are alive to Him as all times co-exist for Him. To us, however, who exist in time, Mary is dead. "C1- Mary's prayers are good My opponent has agreed that the prayers of holy people (like Mary who he agreed was holy) are helpful. Since God has no reason to accept the prayers of sinners on earth but then refuse the prayers of a saint in heaven, it must be beneficial for us to ask Mary to pray for us (i.e. ask her intercession)." If Mary is in heaven then so are we and so we may as well pay to ourselves. "P1- John 2 "Jesus' mother is mentioned first because she was the invited guest at the wedding and Jesus and His disciples had 'also' been invited meaning they were Mary's guests." Saying that Jesus and his disciples were ‘also' invited in no way means that they were invited by Mary. Additionally, in the ancient world women were never given authority over men, so it would be assumed that Mary had no authority over Christ and his friends unless the Scripture specifically said so. "Woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied. "My hour has not yet come." A translation closer to the Greek is "And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come." (http://forums.catholic.com.........) Christ is not showing resentment for Mary overstepping her authority, but rather he is pausing to show that he only does miracles for a purpose rather than desiring to show off at every chance he gets. He obviously hadn't intended to perform the miracle at first, but we see that at Mary's asking he readily complies" Then why not simply sate that Jesus was invited? why put Mary first? "Christ is not showing resentment for Mary overstepping her authority, but rather he is pausing to show that he only does miracles for a purpose rather than desiring to show off at every chance he gets." This obviously false as the story ends with: John 2:11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him Please note what my opponent stated as referring as to the discernment of scripture; when he has failed to see this simplest of mistakes. As the numerous Scriptures I have provided (and which have gone largely unaddressed) show, Mary did not remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus Christ. Not to honour the basic facts of someone's (anyone's) life is to NOT honour them and their truth. We may willfully ignore the facts of someone's life for 2 reasons; Either to denigrate them or to exult them, which is case here. By ignoring these facts, Catholics exult Mary to a Holier state than scripture allows and is so sinful Idolatry: Worship. Earthly intercession (prayers) and the Biblical role of 'Heavenly Intercessor' are NOT interchangeable theologies and nowhere has my opponent provided any scriptural evidence to support his contention that they are. God exists outside of His creation, which includes time, so all times appears to Him simultaneously. However, to us, who are in time, Mary is dead and has not yet been resurrected as, to us, Judgment day has not yet arrived. If Mary is already in heaven then so are we, so praying to her does not make sense, theologically speaking. Even if Mary had somehow 'jumped ahead of us' into Heaven it would not solve the problem of women and Spiritual Authority: As the scriptures I have provided (and which have gone largely unaddressed) show, women may not have authority over men.