The Trinity: A False Doctrine

This should make for a very lively debate! I have read you argument carefully, and find that there are several arguments to made on my part, yet I am impressed with the thought that has gone into your argument! Thank you, and I shall relish the challenge! Now I will continue on. I too will ask that you forgive anything that may sound sarcastic, but I find that a debate is more fun and entertaining with a bit of sarcasm intermingled with logic. Onward... "the burden of proof is on my opponent to show why, for example, scriptures like Deuteronomy 6:4...should not be taken at face value." This is the main mistake you made throughout your entire argument. As a trinitarian, I believe that therea are three COMPLETELY seperate persons, and ONE God. Not three Gods, but ONE. When it says "The Lord our God is one Lord" we believe just that. We believe in only one God who consists of three persons, and therefore this verse and its like are not problematic at all. The definition of the Trinity is also leaving out the fact that we believe The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit all make uo ONE God. We also believe that each person in the Godhead meets the definition of "person" you provided. Before I move on, I would like to point out something I think will stop you in your tracks. The Hebrew word for "God" is "el". This is the SINGULAR form of the word. In the Bible, the most common use of the word when refering to God is "elohim", which is the PLURAL form of the word. Why would they use the plural form of the word I wonder... "First, based on these two definitions, the Trinity is a polytheistic belief." We believe in ONE God, made up of three persons. "Second, we are created in God's image. We are obviously not three persons in one being, therefore it is impossible to say that God is three persons in one being without contradicting scripture." Yes, we are made in the image of God. Let us look at this verse... Gen. 1:26--- "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,...'" In OUR image. In OUR likeness. Was He talking to the angels? No, because angels do not have the power to create; after all, it does say "let US make man...". The fact of the matter is this: In this verse, the word "elohim" is used for God, implying that the Father was talking to the Son. As it says in the verse you quoted... John 1:1-3--- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT HAS BEEN MADE." How do you explain the plural if there is but one person in the Godhead? Arguing that He was talking to angels is out of the question, and otherwise you would have to believe Him schizophrenic. This option I believe would be most disrespectful. "Here Trinitarians once again have a problem, because Jesus was obviously not present when the world was created." Yes He was. Who do you think the Father was talking to? Jesus was present along with the Holy Spirit. "if 'the Word' refers to God the Son, then God the Son is also God, because as this scripture says, 'the Word was God.'" Now your getting it! God the Son IS God. Always has been, and always will be. He is just as much God as the Father is. Take a look at these verses... John 17:10--- "All I [Jesus] have is yours [The Father's], and all you have is mine. And my glory is shown through them." Why would Jesus claim to share all of the same attributes as God if He is not God? After all, He is praying to the Father in this verse (proving my point that they are seperate persons). 1 John 5:20--- "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. This scripture clearifies the diety of not only the Son , but also the Father. Jesus came that we might know that of Him who is true (God the Father) and know that we can be in Him who is true by being in the Son. In later arguments I will reference more scriptues, but for the sake of space, I will move on to your other arguments now. "Thus, according to the Trinity doctrine, God the Son is not only a separate person within the Godhead, he is the entirety of the Godhead. This is an obvious contradiction." It most certainly is not. Jesus is not the entirety of the Godhead, but equal to the rest of the persons in the Godhead. The verse not only says that He was God, but also that He was in the beginning with God, thus implying that they are different persons, but the same God. "either the disciples were disobeying a direct command from the Jesus himself, or they had a correct understanding of what Jesus meant..."the Father," "the Son" and "the Holy Ghost" are not names at all but titles..." All I have to say is that the information that I have provided you with thus far makes a strong case to the contrary. Also, I have gone to many different churches, and ALL of them have baptized people in the name of the Trinity. Col. 2:9--- "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Below are Adam Clarke's thoughts on this verse. "This is opposed to the vain or empty doctrine of the Gentile and Jewish philosophers: there is a fulness in Christ suited to the empty, destitute state of the human soul, but in the philosophy of the Jews and Gentiles nothing like this was found; nor indeed in the more refined and correct philosophy of the present day. No substitute has ever been found for the grace of the Lord Jesus, and those who have sought for one have disquieted themselves in vain. By the Godhead or Deity, θεοτης, we are to understand the state or being of the Divine nature; and by the fulness of that Deity, the infinite attributes essential to such a nature" Clarke puts is in better words than I can. In reference to your comments on Matt. 28:19: You are right, it DOES prove that there are at least two beings in the Godhead, but what about the third? What about the Holy Spirit? I see this verse as evidence for the Holy Spirit, but you dpo not, so let us look at other scriptures. 5. The Holy Spirit is God Less Scripture is dedicated to the Holy Spirit, but there is enough to conclude that He too is God. In Acts 5:3-4, we see the Holy Spirit being equated with God: "Then Peter said, ‘Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.'" [emphasis added] Paul clearly and explicitly equated the Holy Spirit with God: "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." – 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 Additional evidence of the deity of the Holy Spirit comes from the shared attributes of the deity. The Holy Spirit is: Eternal (Heb. 9:14) Omniscient (1 Cor. 2:10-11) Omnipresent (Psa. 139:7) Savior (Rom. 8:1-27) (http://www.contenderministries.org...) "who exactly should we pray to?" We should pray to God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, who is the mediator between God and man. The presence of the Hoply Spirit in our lives gives us the ability to access God through prayer. Well, I seem to have run out of space, so if I missed anything important, please notify me, and I will address it in my next round. Thanks much! Renzzy