Does God Exist? Part 3

I want to start by saying two things: *As an atheist I believe that I don't know everything. I want to clear out that being an atheist doesn't mean you believe in evolution or the big bang theory etc, but simply being an atheist means you don't believe in the supernatural, aka god. *Because yesterday was the annual holocaust memorial day, I didn't have much time for writing this entry, so it will be shorter than usual, and may lack details due to lack of time. My apologies. Now, to your questions: 1) GOOD AND EVIL - you have to be more specific. Good as an action? Evil as a person? Are you talking about law? morality? I'm working on that question for over 15 minutes, but I just don't understand what exactly do you want me to answer. I'm really not trying to avoid this question, but I think it will be helpful if you answer these two questions so I can see what you're meaning. 2) Answer 1. But how do YOU know your definitions are true? You know just as good as me. 3) This is a very critical answer. I don't think all people are the same, so I don't have a 'master plan' of how society should be. This has nothing to do with God, too. We could have been having a debate just on that even if I was Christian and you an atheist. I haven't really given it much thought. If you would answer it yourself it would help me understand, it's not a very specific question. Please don't look at it as an attempt of avoiding giving answers. This is really not my target here, and the questions I wrote are the honest answers I can give you. How did you reach the conclusion that 'truth is not a democracy' and 'we should try, as much as we can, to give people the choice of choosing for themselves.'? And please don't rephrase my sentence, and take it out of context. I'm saying here that the fact that many people believe in something doesn't make it true. I think it is very wrong to have a master plan, as I phrased it before, of how people should live. I think that, for example, if a person chooses to have a homosexual relationship with another homosexual person which is accepted by them both, who am I to say this is wrong ? for example. This is what I've meant. I don't think we should let people do whatever they want, that will lead to a lawless anarchy, but when it comes to things like homosexuality, for example, we shouldn't judge and we shouldn't enforce our lifestyle on other people. I hope you understood my point this time. I'm not saying I don't know if God exists, I'm saying I don't know what is the origin of space and time. There is a big difference. There is no proof God exists, it doesn't make sense for me that he exists, I see religion as very immoral, and I see it as very easy and very understandable why someone would create a God, therefore I am sure God doesn't exist as I'm sure I'm not floating around in the room because of gravity. Have you read the book, or have seen the movie ' the wave ' ? If you didn't, it's highly recommended. My point is that adding a God to the plot can be almost unnoticeable, and you can easily imagine that addition in the plot without changing the message and every other aspect. Well, I have meant that I haven't read the new testament, therefore I can't quote or bring examples from it. I do know about Christianity though (history, basic beliefs, old testament) and I think it's enough for this debate. Let me remind you that this debate is about god and religion, and not if Christianity is or is not the 'right religion'. Now to the second part of your argument, I do agree with all the things you wrote (love, joy, kindness etc) but you're taking it too literal. This is nice, but you need to look at these aspects of Christianity too: *Christianity says that we are all sinners, meaning sin is a natural thing - just like walking, talking and breathing, yet 'sin' is a bad thing. We can both agree walking, talking and breathing isn't 'bad' or 'good', it's a fact, it's just is. If God punishes for sin, why can't he punish for breathing or acting human? *According to Christianity Jesus 'died for humanity's sins'. If the Christian God exists, then he actually PUNISHED his son for: A) something that others' did. If this is something moral, then a child can be punished for what his father did. That's exactly the same thing. That 'morality' DOESN'T match up with mine. B) something natural. I just said why I think this makes no sense. C) Something he has no control of. I don't think there is need of a further explanation. There are more, but I do not have enough time, so I have to move on.. Morality No, I don't think everyone reaches the same conclusion, I think the most do. That's why raping, for example, is illegal (I use the raping example because it is very unequivocal, of course). I really don't want to get into philosophy and I don't have enough time too, but as an atheist I accept that many times there is no justice in the world, but we should try our best to do as much justice we can. I think morality has a lot to do with reason. Our goal is to have a better society. Raping does not make the society better. I think if you do something that hurts the other, except for a few exceptions (survival for example), your action is wrong. I know you're going to drag me again into philosophy, so I just want you to do this: Think about your morality. Now take God out of the picture. Did it change? Forgiveness ? Well, it's not like in every other religion you get executed for stealing an apple from the grocery. That's also a problem with Christianity. You said so yourself - every crime is equal to another. I don't think a man who raped his daughter is equivalent to a man who stole an apple from the grocery. Atheism is not a religion!! I don't need to 'believe' in atheism. I need to disbelieve in theism. And like I said in the beginning, I am sure God doesn't exist, but I don't know for sure how the universe began, that's not the same thing. It's not like there are only two answers. I see you're always trying to prove that atheism can't explain this, and can't explain that, but it doesn't have to. It's not a religion. Let me explain it this way: You draw a square on a canvas, and say it's a triangle. I say it's not a triangle, because it has 4 sides, but I can't calculate the length of the sides, because I don't have a ruler. You can't take that, and say that because I can't calculate the length of the sides this is a triangle. It's not exactly equivalent but I think it's very close and I think it presents my point very well. Historical evidence I'm reaching my deadline so I have to hurry, so I'm sorry if this will be unclear: I was talking about the holy roman empire. Yes, Christianity had a few threats, but so did every other religion. Let's take Judaism, for example, the religion I know best. The Jewish people have been hunted for thousands of years, much more than Christianity. I just want to prove to you that a religion we both agree is 'untrue' kept itself alive even with all the threats. Look at the holocaust! 6 Million people were killed, and the survivors went through such a horrible experience, and yet most of them didn't lose their faith. So why don't you believe the eyewitnesses of Islam? In every religion, in every holy books, are 'eyewitnesses'. If what you said was truth, why aren't all people Christian? If there is such a solid proof that Jesus preformed miracles, are we all, people who are not Christians, just rejecting evidence? I don't think so. I'm not saying Jesus didn't exist. There was probably a man named Jesus, it's written in many places, and you are right, it was MUCH harder for Christianity to grow if they made up their leader, But.... You have to remember that Muslims, for example, believe in the night journey of Muhammad. There is just as much evidence for that as to the miracles preformed by Jesus. Christianity is a missionary religion, and I think that's the main reason that so many people believe in it. I want to add that your reasons for the proof of God are, to my opinion, very weak, because there are 'proofs' like that in just every religion you look in. It would be helpful if you could provide more reasons that support your belief. I want to ask you some very clear short questions, I hope you answer them: *Why do you think your morality is the 'right' one, as you stated in your entry? You have just as much proof as every religion. *You said that Christianity exists for many many years, and if it wasn't true, it would have disappeared. Christianity is about as old as Islam. Buddhism is 500-600 years OLDER than Christianity, and many many people still believe in that religion today. How do you explain that? *According to Christianity, hell is for non-Christians, and is supposed to be a very evil place, to make people suffer, which I also find immoral. Why would God make a man who lived as a good person and never harmed a human being suffer? What is the purpose of that? It actually reminds me a lot of the holocaust. People were punished suffering and death just because of their religion. It didn't matter what they did. God is a Nazi according to religion, Christianity included. Christianity is indeed, very moral (sarcasm). Waiting for your response :)