We should move towards a world where everybody is vegan

You argue that we are not obliged to become vegan. Well do you believe that a parent is obliged to look after their child? And if so, on what grounds is that obligation legitimised? Well I will tell you: because that child is only there as a result of their actions, and because making him unhappy is simply 'not nice'. So how do we define obligation? Well it seems that righteousness and kindness play a big role. For instance, are you obliged to help someone who is going to die without a small, easy action on your behalf? These are difficult questions, because they have two equally TRUE responses. Those are as follows: No, because 'obligation' is it's self is mearly a word. The idea of Right and Wrong is only an idea, made by a collection of neurons in so called 'biological organism'. And so we have no obligation to do the 'right' thing because all that matters is our individual desires. This is true. However it may not be true if God exists. But non the less, without evidence of God, we cannot bring him into the discussion. So if we go off all we know, that being that we are all biological organisms that have a life span, and desires, we can say we have no obligation to anything. We merely do what we please. Now, on the other side of the argument, we say YES: we do have an obligation to look after our children, do the kind thing e.t.c. In this response, we legitimise obligation by what we call 'righteousness'. So we are obliged to do something because it is right. Although both response are equally correct (besides not doing the 'right' thing if God is real) I live by the second one. So when you say: "I argued that not everyone is obliged to become vegan" your are correct, we are not necessarily obliged to be vegan. But by that same logic, we are also not obliged to do anything, thus rendering the word meaningless. The voters will have too decide how they substansiate their own obligations: either through righteousness, or selfishness. You say: -Pro has not explained the morality bit of his argument. How is it immoral to provide your population with food? My friend this is foolish. Did I say it was immoral to provide your population with food? I don't understand this point. Indeed I have actually explained why producing meat costs far more than other food, so your ideology is the one that provides less food if anything. It is not immoral to provide your population with food: it's immoral to make billions of fellow beings suffer horrifically in order to achieve that goal, when other options are just as easy to take. Your next argument actually links with your first one. You say: "are we obligated to be unnatural?" Suggesting that we are not obligated to be unnatural. Well like I said, it links to the first point: are we obliged to do the right thing, or the natural thing? Like I say in the beginning: I argue that we are obliged to do the right thing, regardless of our own desires or 'natural instinct'. For instance: we don't instinctively want to do the 'right' thing as humans, indeed instinctively we want to do the selfish thing. I would argue that doing the right thing is hard and often requires us to act in ways that we don't want too. You are saying that if we don't want to do it, then why should we? I think as an intelligent beings, we should have higher standards than this animalistic attitude my opponent is portraying of selfish gain. So yes, we ARE obliged to act unnaturally (whatever that actually means), if it means we are doing the 'right' thing. I say in the wild, animals are hunted fairly. For instance a tiger has to stalk its prey, she will have to single out a weak member of the herd, then she will chase it and there is a very high possibilty that she will fail to catch. She tries so hard because without the catch, her young will starve. You see, they cannot eat the fruits and vegetables of the trees like we can, nor can they plough the fields and bake the bread. Now when we eat meat, we don't chase anything that can survive. These animals are born into in. They have no chance of escape, or no chance of a peaceful life. And you say: -It's actually very natural. Even animals do it. Tigers have claws and sharp teeth. That's not fair for the prey they hunt. Yet they hunt and eat their prey for their own survival. Are you really comparing claws to factory farms? You say: -Actually, the fact that our ancestors did it is enough to justify it. If our ancestors did not develop tools to hunt and had a vegan diet, they would have gone extinct and we would not exist today. Our ancestors needed to hunt and kill animals for their survival back when they were hunter-gatherers. Vegetation alone is not enough and killing animals gave them more benefits than just food. If our ancestors had not hunted mammoths, they would have had no shelter and clothes, leaving them to freeze in the Ice Age. Yes, in the ice age. We are not in the ice age anymore. Necessities change over time. The British empire and USA may not have been without slavery, does this mean we shouldn't condem it? Women have been oppressed throughout history, without it, things would not be how they are now: does this mean we shouldn't move towards removing that ancestoral habit? You say "the fact our ancestors did it is enough to justify it" I simply believe this to be absolutely foolish. This mentality of yours, is the reason society takes so long to change socially. I'm upset because you are intelligent and yet still think this way. You say: "I think most the population knows they are eating dead animals" They do know they are dead animals, but I am saying that they are ignorant to their actual circumstances. They do not know how much they suffer. And so, the fact that people are accepting of it is not cause to legitimise it, as they do not know what is actually going on. The repetitive stress evidence: You say: -If everyone was vegan, those workers would be out of a job. I'm certain most slaughter house workers would much rather kill animals so that they can support their families than to lose their jobs and their right to eat meat. Should we of kept slavery too then, to ensure the slave merchants kept their jobs? Because according to your logic, we should never improve the society because of short term consequences. You must not be so short sighted. Besides, I said we should MOVE towards a world where we are all vegan. I am saying that we should gradually move towards that world, and that it should be seen as an ideal to AIM for. I am not saying we should force the world to be like that over-night. As I said: is a movement towards such a world. You say about my quote (true test of a man is how he treats his inferiors e.c.t.) that is could be interpreted in other ways and so it doesn't support my claim. Well no, not really. So your suggesting that he may of meant that treating his inferiors badly, is the true test of a mans virtue? Don't be absurd, it's obvious what he meant. He meant: treating your inferiors well, suggests that you are virtuous because you have less consequences for doing so. Thus, you are treating them well because you are compassionate, and not because of selfish or other reasons. You argue that making someone suffer is okay when they are a rapist or murderer. Yes okay, so if someone has committed the worst offences imaginable then they maybe deserve to suffer. What offence has the animal committed? No the environment would be helped. It takes 100x more clean water to make meat, it costs about ten times the weight of grain to get an amount of meat. There is no question about whether the meat industry is bad for the environment. Please look at these websites. I am not trying to argue that it's bad for the environment, I'm assuming we already know this, I'm using it as an argument. There is no question about its truth, the question is only about whether its sufficient enough as a reason to go vegan. You say that the water is going to be used on the cows anyway. This is ridiculous, if we don't eat cows why would so many of them exist? Obviously in a vegan world there would be less cows to spend drinking water on. So it would save water. Water is an issue actually, maintining clean drinking water. You say the animals will take up the room anyway even if the world was vegan. Why? Why would we continue to breed animals on such a scale if we stopped using them? Who would pay to feed and keep them? Think about it. They would either be killed of just aloud to die in peace and breed no more young animals. You say health and happiness are not linked. Well, they are. A well nutritified body is a well functioning one, a well functioning brain and body means that there is stability. If you eat loads of food that is bad for your health, you will be less happy. For instance you will get ill more often, you will die earlier and you may not feel energetic and content. For food is our medicine, and we are what we eat. You say you won't be happy because you can't eat certain meals, well you need to find other ways of being happy. If such a shallow, pleasure of the flesh is you source of happiness then you should study philosophy and the real truth behind happiness. Happiness is more likely to come from compassion to life, rather than a rejection and abuse of life, would you not agree? Do you get your authority from others my friend? So we are only obliged to abolish slavery because of the 'human rights'? So, before this paper was written, slavery was okay yer? My friend this is foolish. People don't have very different ideas about being good, it's all based around kindness and compassion. Most meat-eaters are brave enough to accept their faults, some like yourself want to have your cake and eat it. You want to be seen as virtuous and good, and you support cruelty for your own pleasure. Just accept it, you are doing the wrong thing, you cannot have it both ways. Finish in comments.