The Jesus Myth Debate

I do apologize for treating this as a forum. Although it is very similar to a forum, just with more rules. I never actually learned how to structure a proper debate. I have been reading other debates and they have an artificial quality as if they are pandering to judges for a scholarship. I do see how structuring my debate can help me stay on topic and not get overwhelmed, but I have always felt that Christianity cannot really be debated with "sources" because the person debating on the side of con doesn't believe the bible is a credible source. So we feel like our opinions are equally valid for arguing against religion. This becomes a discussion naturally due to the lack of trust in the sources provided! Anyways I still do appreciate you not ignoring my posts! My wedding is getting close (after a year of spending lots of money :) thanks for your wishes. I have never witnessed an event that has given me the feeling that I was in the presence of a miracle. Honestly the word miracle is a little vague. Technically all of existence is one big miracle. Now if you want to replace the word God with miracle, then I can understand the concept. I was watching an interview between a priest and Richard Dawkins. Dawkins was elegantly illustrating the evolution of the human eye. The priest looked at him and said "I'm not impressed by that". He didn't believe him because it contradicts Genesis. Then he asked Dawkins to listen to a story of a "miracle" He then went on about a hot beam of light shooting out of the sky into his back. He said it was hot and made it hard to move at first. Then he went to a house that had a sick girl where he placed his hands on her and felt the beam enter the girl. The girl sat up. Later he found out that she had died before he entered the room. A women told him that she saw the beam enter his back. "I'm sorry.. I'm just not impressed by that". The priests refusal to acknowledge Dawkins as a credible source for "truth", was returned with the same lack of trust. Richard has no trouble telling you that the mind has a powerful and unique ability to hallucinate. Especially in times of great stress or desperation! I am the first to tell you that if I actually saw something that could not be explained. (Ever watch David Blaine?) No clue how he does it.. but you know he is no sorcerer. That is the most rational conclusion I can think of why there is such a barrier between individuals of different faith. I'm not just talking about unbelievers here. So many different "holy books" and denominations. Each one considers the other as damned or secular. That is why I do not have a set boundary for my faith.. except the whole pantheist thing but that impresses no one if they ask me if I'm theist/atheist. The "Truth" from what I can tell is anything you want it to be. Like I was saying before.. technically when you believe in the devil and hell.. they are real... to you. They are your truth. You have to see that we are all connected to the same God who's' "love" is unconditional. It is an illusion that you can ever be separate from God! That is my "truth". It may not be enough for you but it works for me. My struggle is not with my beliefs, it is the same pandering nonsense that I was trying to illustrate with the preacher. He wanted to turn our wedding into a "chance to finally drop my "Satan like" rebellion and accept that I need to believe in the Jesus resurrection ritual. What if I don't need it.. what if its wrong? You spent your entire life imagining a place that people who are not like you suffer for eternity. Keep in mind that is only made worse through the concept of the devil! It disregards any wisdom that can be learned as lies if it contradicts your interpretation of the bible. It deny Education of evolution in schools. Denies homosexuals their rights. (I'm not going to link you to the crusades, witch burnings, inquisition, holocaust, Jihad, child molestation, slavery, genocide) Don't you get tired of hearing about the bombings in the middle east. Not to mention the constant compromising of my personality to suit the religious expectations of the family. Kinda weird growing up hearing your dad tell you that if someone held a gun up to his families head and asked him to deny Jesus he would say pull the trigger. Also imaging having your father tell you there is a demon in you.. believe in demons? I certainly don't. Anyways you can see my point. Every destructive action that comes from religion is given impunity. It is taboo to talk about this to anyone I know. They abuse the tolerance of the people pleasing side of me. I apologize for laying out some of my baggage on you, I honestly don't have anyone that can keep up with me (not arrogant) Wow that went longer than I wanted for an opening statement but I think it helps bring some of my reality to you so you can better understand my position! 1.I guess I don't understand how an all powerful all knowing and benevolent God would design such a system. It doesn't add up. Something that is separate from sin but created everything? We are created in his image? That is not illustrated by his work. The Devil rebelling against the all powerful all knowing God? So when God created The angels he knew creating humans would set Lucifer off.. then he knew Adam would eat of the fruit. Then he knew his son would have to be tortured and murdered to fix something that had been done 5000 years ago. How does this sound Benevolent. This is not a loving father this is a being tied to as dismal of fate as his children. I know in any Hierarchy when something goes wrong you don't look to the drones, you look to the leaders. So any image I have of the Judeo Christian God is that of a bad leader. My proof is in the suffering and tragedy that humans endure! I would say that the chances that someone will not believe in the bible makes procreation the most irresponsible thing a person could do. Bringing a child into that reality would be extremely risky and has too severe a punishment to even try! Free will.. I think free will is as elusive as morality. Very hard to really put a pin on it, but we know its there. One thing is certain though, it has its boundaries and limitations. Your environment, mental and physical health, adaptation and conformity, marketing, sensationalism, agendas, manipulation...etc. I do know that a discipline can be achieved to fight this but it is definitely not the path of least resistance (You know the most common path taken) That is why I do not settle in just one belief, I believe that it is the self inflicted ignorance of the many other possibilities that could be true! It is also why the number of people who make the same proclamations is not very impressive. It was just the path of least resistance for them.. They did not make themselves, they were made! 2. I have pointed out that although Religion does provide a source for morals, so do many other sources. You can gain morality from an episode of south park if you look past the crudeness! Morality is just as much secular as it is religious! The fact is in comparison to the earth we have only been here a short time. In that time however, through natural selection we have instilled morals in our very genetic coding for survival purposes and to protect your "tribe". Now we are in mass numbers hold the same moral code only modified and evolved to our current stage of evolution in which we live! When you kick a pregnant woman in the stomach it is a mutation of that process with very horrifying results! Even doing nice things for complete strangers is a remnant from a time when the people you met were not strangers and could reciprocate in the future. 3. I see you one further.. We have all seen the truth. We only distort it because it does not stimulate our ego! That is why the truth appears different to the individuals that experience them! But we both know its the same any way you turn and I am comfortable calling it God! out of room