Morality Without God

And welcome her to her first debate. "My argument is quite simple too. If we do not believe in god, and nor His teachings, then who would decide the ‘valid moral principles' as you say? " And there is a simple answer. No one "decides" the validity of anything. Objectively, it's either true or it's not. "God is someone who is eternal, who does not change with time, who is there, always. He is someone who is always present in our conscience, telling us wrong from right. So, if we eliminate Him from our existence, the person whom we are relying on, is Us- i. e me and the society. And that is a shaky foundation in itself. " You forget that there may not even be a God at all. If this is the case than our only foundation for our morals would be ourselves and society anyway, with no consequence on whether we believe in him or not. I also do not think it is a shaky foundation, for it is based solely on reason. If there's any shaky foundation here it's that we get our morals from God, for this is founded on faith. Morality should not be a matter to be taken on faith. "Also, even if we know (without God telling us) what the moral principles are, what use are they if we don't follow them. Man is inadvertently guided by the force or the basic nature of Karma. i. e we will be punished for all the wrong that we do. There is no scientific basis for the claim, but it is something that we know, or fear. " Since my opponent has conceded that it is a claim not based on logic, it has no practical application in this debate. Our moral systems must be founded on reason. "Man is basically a selfish being and if he thinks he can get away with something, there is very little to hold him back, and only a man of infinite patience and calmness can actually follow his moral principles just because it is wrong to do so. " Indeed mankind is selfish. You have not shown how this a bad thing though. I argue that it is not. I feel my own existence, it is only rational to pursue my own pleasure. Also, the mind-set behind your sentiment seems to be one that is pessimistic to human nature. It has long been practiced in the history of perverted moral systems to declare it's faults on man. When it fails to create peace in Earth, it's proponent would declare that their system is just but that mankind's nature is not just enough to follow it. I think, that in essence, such a mind-set is illogical and inherently immoral as well. We are highly evolved, rational beings. It is only from our own nature that we can discern any right from wrong. "If man were not fallen, i. e. , not corrupted by sin, we would have limitless potential to create from within ourselves a universal moral code. But, we are a fallen lot, every last one of us, and therefore incapable of fully knowing what is good (Rom. 3:23). We are even incapable of carrying out what we do know to be good (Rom. 7:18-21). " If you dare post bible verses as a champion for morality, I will have to respond to them with others. "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open. " (Hosea 13:16) That's God supposedly speaking. "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. " (Leviticus 20:13) God says kill the gays. "All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. " (Leviticus 20:9) God speaking. Children, be obedient! OR ELSE! "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. " (Romans 13:1-2) OOH! Some New Testament! Hitler was put here by God we must not challenge such authority. Sorry, got off topic, but I think you see my point. In making a case for morality, do not quote the bible. ===My Case=== Here is what I propose. The only just moral system, whether a God exists or not, is one founded purely upon reason. Not faith. Since a moral system can only be just when it is rational, it is most fitting to simply declare that rationality is morality. Rationality=morality. Irrationality =immorality This is the only thing that makes any sense. The only one objectively true and absolute moral principle is the pursuit of reason. Faith is irrational and thus far too often leads to immoral systems. Faith is the making of ignorance into a virtue. Not the simple acknowledgment of ignorance in matters, which is intellectual, but the actual worshiping and reverence of ignorance. Faith is the accepting of what you do not know as true. To reason is to realize what you do and do not know and to accept them as such, for what they are. In being rational, we must work out our moral system based from what it is we know. What do we know? You do not know there is a God. In-fact, you don't even know I'm a real person or if anything around you is real, it may all be an illusion. What you do know is existence exists. Everything that is, is. Though, you are not aware of nature of all that is. This is the recognition of the objective. What you also know is that you exist. You think, therefor your are. This is the recognition of the subjective. Within this subjective existence you also know what you sense. When you are angry, sad, happy, in pain, comfortable, etc. And lastly you know that some of things are preferable to others. Some are good, some are bad. Some negative, some positive. Some that should be pursued and some that should be avoided. These things are what you KNOW. And these are the only things of which you KNOW. Nothing else is directly known with any certainty. So, in the pursuit of reason, it is from these things that our moral system must be devised. Not from a God. Whether one exists or not. I will go farther into detail later on.