Abortion

Point 1: There were no "illegal" abortions after Roe vs. Wade in 1973. But there were "underground" abortions not done in a hospital for a couple of years after Roe vs. Wade. Why? Because having an abortion was still not something that people told everyone becuase abortion was still considered immoral by the vast majority of the population (Kind of like gays today). As a result, thousands of women who had abortions did not tell anyone because it would tarnish their reputation forever. So as a result, thousands if not tens of thousands of women went to doctors who would not put the information on the women's abortion on file, unlike a hospital. This of course, is illegal. But as abortion became more accepted and widespread, women shifted from these "underground" doctors to hospitals. This is a shot to the whole pro-life argument because if they didn't protest abortion, abortion would not be scrutinized, and women would not seek "underground" doctors. If you can provide statistics on illegal abortion after the year 2000 that provide reasonable evidence, I will concede this part of the argument. Point 2: I only said that 39 deaths from illegal abortion were DOCUMENTED. Since their wasn't really a major crackdown of these "underground" aborters prior to Roe vs. Wade, thousands could have gone undocumented. And once the family learned of the woman's death from an abortion, the family usually hid it, for as the same reasons above, it was illegal and immoral and would tarnish the family name. Point 3: Remember, this whole debate is whether abortion is justified or not. So I do not consider the vast majority of the 1.21 million abortions to be murder. And your statistic that 130,000 illegal abortions is again flawed because you are only counting documented and speculated. And what is your point about Norway? One, the abortion rate is about the same, and naturally there would be more abortions as the population increases. Point 4: I did not say that leaving a country for a country that legalizes abortion was illegal. In fact, it is justified and understandable. I just said that thousands of women would just leave America for some other country that legalizes abortion. Point 5: I will clump two points in one argument. This is regarding when fetuses feel pain. http://news.discovery.com...: 18-29 weeks. http://discovermagazine.com...: 28 weeks. http://www.time.com...: 20-26 weeks. http://www.godandscience.org...: Nothing less than 20 weeks. http://www.religioustolerance.org...: Nothing less than 20 weeks. http://www.omaha.com...: 18-22 weeks. http://www.gargaro.com...: 12-20 weeks. http://abcnews.go.com...: 35-37 weeks. I want more of your "6-8 week" sources because I sure have the force of numbers. And I proved that since Roe vs. Wade, the percentage of abortions done in the first trimester, legal or illegal, has more than doubled, making the legalization less painful for the percentage of babies. Point 6: Why do you not trust an edu site? And why you of all people trust Government sites? Anyway, your comment about contraceptive has two fundumental flaws. One, we are talking about children conceived and aborted in the few years just after Roe vs. Wade. The decline in the teen pregnancy rate was not attributed to this. This has no bearing on the decline in crime in the 1990s. Two, even if your comment was logical, you still can't explain this statement: "The magnitude of the differences in the crime decline between high- and low-abortion states was over 25 percent for homicide, violent crime and property crime. For instance, homicide fell 25.9 percent in high-abortion states between 1985 and 1997 compared to an increase of 4.1 percent in low-abortion states. Panel data estimates confiï¿½rm the strong negative relationship between lagged abortion and crime. An analysis of arrest rates by age reveal that only arrests of those born after abortion legalization are affected by the law change.":http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu.... And again, as I pointed out from a source, almost 50% of the women having abortions had a salary below the US poverty level of $10660. And the percentage of poor people who commit a crime is a lot higher than for the other two classes. And here is another article linking the crime decrease to abortion: http://www.slate.com.... Point 7: What was so hard to get about that statement? Here is the full quote: "A number of studies have looked at cases of women living in jurisdictions in which governmental approval to have an abortion was required, who sought to have an abortion, but were denied the ability to do so (Dagg, 1991; David, Dytrych, Matejcek and Schuller, 1988). For example, Dagg (1991) reports that these women overwhelmingly kept their babies, rather than giving them up for adoption, but that they often resented the unwanted children. These children who were born because their mothers were denied an abortion were substantially more likely to be involved in crime, even when controlling for the income, age, education and health of the mother." Does this clear your confusion up? Point 8: Barack Obama and Herman Cain were a select few. The vast vast majority of poor people are never able to even get into the middle class. Millions of children who under abortion prohibiting laws would live terrible lives in poverty for the rest of their life. What is better, one moment of suffering under abortion, or a lifetime of suffering with no abortion? That was my point. Point 9: "The Recession of 1969–1970 was a relatively mild recession in the United States... The recession followed the second longest economic expansion in U.S. history.":http://en.wikipedia.org.... The recession officially ended in November of 1970. So at the end of 1971 saw the near peak of the growth period between 1971 and 1973. Naturally, poverty levels would be lower. "The 1973–75 recession in the United States or 1970s recession was a period of economic stagnation, putting an end to the general post-World War II economic boom.": http://en.wikipedia.org.... This means that poverty was beginning to increase at the end of 1973. Naturally, there would be a 2-3% difference. Better statistics please. Point 10: Women should be able to decide to abort pregnancies when the child can not be provided for. That is smart. Point 11: You have one source claiming 6-8 weeks. I have 8 sources claiming 15-37 weeks. More sources please. Point 12: http://www.msnbc.msn.com... http://www.guardian.co.uk.... This source claims that the unwanted pregnancy is the cause of mental illness, not the abortion itself. http://feministing.com.... This source cites at least three studies denying the claim. Point 13: http://www.prochoice.org... http://www.cancer.gov...; a non-biased source. http://www.cancer.org...; more non-bias I have the strength in numbers again. Point 14: There are more children entering foster care than leaving and abuse rates are going up. This is pretty mainstream. Everyone knows there is a problem with today's child care system. Point 15: There is the same argument for the young and the poor. They both are usually not adequate parents. END I have crushed the pro-life argument.