Calvinism

Pro said: "Con said, "A non-elect person begging God on his knees not to send him to Hell is a doctrinal impossibility." Yet, Romans 10:13 says, " For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Rebuttal: Interesting assumption. My opponent believes that everyone who calls upon God is saved. That's a mighty generous Utopian doctrine, yet it's flagrantly heretical. Romans 10:13 is conditional. "Whosoever" does not mean everyone. Consider: Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ It appears, "whosoever" calls upon the name of the Lord, needs to meet some other condition outside of simply crying "Lord, Lord". That condition is a genuine desire for God. How does genuine faith come to a person? Well, we covered that already: Romans 12:3 - ... according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. God gives you the faith. Nobody can come to Christ except by the Father who draws them. It's really, really simple. Argument extended. Pro said: "So, if my opponent is right, NOT EVEN THE ELECT CAN ASK God to save them, its a "doctrinal impossibility." No, my friend, Total Depravity, or Total Inability is nonsense." Rebuttal: You're right, the elect cannot ask God to save them, unless God calls them unto himself! I thought we covered this. The elect are just as dead in their sin as everyone else. It takes the command of the divine to wake them to life. "Lazarus, rise up." Did Lazarus ask Christ to restore his life? Of course not, that's impossible. The dead do not choose life. Which brings up an interesting point: If the dead cannot choose life and the Bible call you "dead in your trespasses", how can you choose God unless he calls out to you:" Rise up!" ? Argument extended. Pro said: "God is now the author of sin, because, "Adam was forced to eat the apple" according to Con. And then, God punishes Adam for forcing him to eat what he wasn't supposed to eat! UNBELIEVABLE!"Rebuttal: My opponent thinks it is unbelievable that God allows sin. What does he do with scripture like Exodus 4:21 and Romans 9:17? Ignore it? Exodus 4:21 - "And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return unto Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." (He just made it impossible for Pharaoh to turn away from sin.) Followed by: Romans 9:17 - For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (So, God manipulated Pharaoh into sinning against him so that he could destroy him. That sounds alot like a God that Pro insists does not exist.) It appears that God raised up Pharaoh to power, just so he could destroy him and thus (ready for this example of election?) glorify his name before his "chosen, elected, handpicked" Jewish people. Argument extended. 　 Pro said:"There is a problem with that though. If God gave Adam the choice,(Which He Did), then it was God's test to see what man would do." Rebuttal: So your God is not omniscient? He is so limited in power, he needs to experiment? My father, the God who wrote this Bible, did not need to "test" Adam. The whole Bible is full of examples where God displays to us that we need him. Every law he sets up, we fail to keep it. He does not give us laws to make us better or to test us, he gives us laws so that we recognize our sin. This is not some "cosmic challenge" to see who passes his test. Romans 5:20 - Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: It starts with:" Don't eat the apple". It continues with a whole list of:" Thou shalt not..." and we fail those also. Eventually, we are presented with Jesus, who is God, telling us face to face:"You need me! Stop trying to work out your own righteousness. You're going to fail!" Gal 3:23-25 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.　 The Apple was not a test. That is the worst interpretation of Genesis I have ever heard. Argument extended. Pro said: "If God has to draw the elect to him, then ALL MEN, NOT SOME, ARE THE ELECT according to John 12:32." Rebuttal: "All means all!" (Nope). Read the verses again. In John 6:44, Jesus said that he will raise up those who where drawn to him. Those whom he draws, go to heaven. In John 12:32 he said that he would draw all men unto himself. If he meant the whole world, then Jesus just stated that nobody will go to hell. Do you see the problem with assuming that "all really means all"? That verse means, he will draw all of those whom he elected. If he draws the whole world to himself, then explain Matthew 7:21. A sports news-caster said:" I watched the Bruins game last night. I asked them all to meet with me for an interview." Did he mean the whole world or did this context imply the Hockey players? Context needs to be observed. We know the context by studying other scripture that speaks on this exact same issue. Argument extended. Pro stated: "Concerning Ephesians 1:13, I believe my opponent misunderstood my claim.....THAT IS NOT WHAT EPHESIANS 1:13 SAYS." Rebuttal: Hopefully we get this settled. 1.> God calls his elects, usually through the preaching of scripture, they hear him. (By hearing comes faith, which is given and made perfect by God.) 2.> The heart is regenerated with a supernatural desire for God. (Salvation). 3.> The Holy Spirit enters the heart of the believer at the moment of repentance and salvation. Ephesians 1:13 says: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, No conflict. Argument extended. On 1 Timothy 2:4 Rebuttal: "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; ..... 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. .....8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." Pray for all types of men. Not just peasants and tax collectors, but Kings and Generals. God will draw the rich and the poor. (Not the whole world, just all types of men.) Context! Argument extended. Pro said: "Paul killed people BEFORE HE WAS SAVED. John Calvin killed people AFTER HE WAS SAVED" Rebuttal: Did my opponent just claim that saved people don't sin? I think he did. Marvelous folly. What does the Bible say about sin after salvation: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. This is a silly argument. If everyone who was found righteous by faith is incapable of sin, then Abraham is in deep trouble. Argument extended. http://www.crbcbluefield.net... [1]