This house believes that Stalin was not a socialist

Thank you Benko12345678 for this debate topic! Can I call you Benko? I look Forward to a stimulating debate! Due to the resolution of this debate I admonish judges to be wary of the "No True Scotsmen" fallacy. This "is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing")."(1) This is an example of the fallacy "Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." Person B: "I am Scottish, and I put sugar on my porridge." Person A: "Well, no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."(1) Please do not misunderstand me, I am not accusing my opponent of this fallacy, I just would like the judges to be aware as the debate is over what makes one a "true" socialist. I will reply to each of Pro"s points in the order he presented them. 1: my opponent says that Stalin was a "corrupt bureaucrat that plunged the Socialist ideals of Marx and Lenin (and other Marxists) into a totalitarian regime where the state controlled absolutely everything." This is thus far consistent with the definition of socialism as the "state," or in other words "Community as a whole," "controls the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc." (taken from my opponents definition of socialism) The State: "a politically unified people occupying a definite territory; nation. "(2) My opponent says "Communism by default is highly against a one-communist-state even existing." I invite Pro to substantiate this claim with a source; until he does it should be regarded as hearsay. My opponent says "Stalin was not a Communist or a Socialist by any means." I submit the definition of a communist. Communist: "a person who believes in communism or is a member of a political party that supports communism"(3) Stalin was a member of a "Communist party."(4) The party was called "The Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU)" which was founded by Lenin.(5) This proves that Stalin fits the definition of communist. My opponent says "He was a fascist that used Communist imagery and ideology to control everyone and everything." Here my opponent admits that Stalin "used Communist imagery and ideology." Sounds like something a Communist would do. 2: Pro says "Stalin's social outlooks were much closer to fascism than true communism. Stalin condemned homosexuality (irrelevant if you personally find it immoral), even though Lenin was a strong supporter of homosexual rights." Fredrick Engels, is known as the "father of Marxist theory, together with Karl Marx."(6)He also co-authored the communist manifesto. "Friedrich Engels condemned homosexuality in association with pedophilia."(7) This clearly separates ones view on homosexuality from socialism/communism as Lenin and Engels are both accepted as iconic figures who were socialist/communists, and had opposing views. This argument is negated. 3. Pro says "Stalin supported collective farming, which was akin to subsidized farming, an aspect only found in a completely capitalist nation." Humorously, when you look up "collective farming" it has direct ties to Communism.(8) Kim Jong Il who is also a communist, has implemented "collective farming" in North Korea.(9)(10) The same is true of Fidel Castro in Cuba. (11) This shows my opponents arguments to be inconsistent with communism. You cannot logically say Stalin is not a communist for this, but Kim Jong Il, and Fidel Castro are in spite of this. 4. So far as I can tell, my opponent"s argument here is that no communist nation can be imperialistic. Again I invite Pro to provide sources to back this claim and until such time should be regarded as hearsay. 5.Pro say"s "On 22 May 1943, Stalin announced the formal shutting-down of the Communist International, the association of revolutionary socialist parties across the world set up after the October Revolution." I invite pro to elaborate as to why this would make Stalin not a socialist/communist as right now this is a statement without an application to the argument. 6.Pro said "Finally, and the most important distinction between fascist Stalinism and Marxist Communism was the preserved class hierarchy. Most branches of Fascism include an extreme fixed Hierarchy, whether the elite class was the Leader, the Military, the Capitalists, or just the State. The "Communist" Party of the Soviet Union was an elite class of its own, while the rest of the people were left in dire conditions... something that the Revolution sought to put an end to." My response: "Vladimir Lenin popularized political vanguardism as conceptualized by Karl Kautsky, detailing his thoughts in one of his earlier works, What is to be done?. Lenin argued that Marxism"s complexity and the hostility of the establishment (the autocratic, semi-feudal state of Imperial Russia,) required a close-knit group of individuals pulled from the working class vanguard to safeguard the revolutionary ideology within the particular circumstances presented by the Tsarist r"gime at the time."(12) It seems that it could be argued that Stalin implemented the idea of a "Vangaurd." This is at its roots a socialistic/communistic principle. 7-11: Pro claims that "At the most basic level, a Marxist communist society: Is classless, Is stateless, Has no form of a currency, Has the means of production owned in common by all people. Again if you compare to Cuba and North Korea to Stalin"s Russia, they are very similar in regard to class distinction, currency, and state controlled means of production. Criticism: Socialism: ": a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies"(13) Pro did not provide a source for his definition of socialism. The definition above is taken from Merriam-Webster. I present this as my opponent"s definition uses the words "community" while the dictionary uses "government" in reference to who controls the means of production. If my opponent could clarify the difference between the two and why his definition for one reason or another should be preferred over the dictionaries, it would add some clarity and authority to the debate. It seems most of pro"s argument would rest on this distinction. Also as we do want to avoid the "no true Scotsmen" fallacy it would be appropriate for Pro to give an example of somewhere or someone who is a "true" communist/socialist. Summary of rebuttals: Stalin fits the definition of communist found in the dictionary. Stalin cannot be excluded as a socialist/communist for collective farming as Kim Jong Il and Fidel Castro have also implemented this practice. Stalin seems to have implemented Lenin"s idea of Vanguardism to its natural application. Many of Pro"s statements are hearsay, as he did not provide sources to back these claims. After examination of my opponent"s argument that Stalin is not a "true" socialist/communist, it becomes clear that he is as much a socialist/communist as Kim Jong Il or Fidel Castro are "true" socialist/communists. The resolution is negated. (1) http://en.wikipedia.org... (2) http://dictionary.reference.com... (3) http://www.merriam-webster.com... (4) http://www.britannica.com... (5) http://en.wikipedia.org... (6) http://en.wikipedia.org... (7) http://en.wikipedia.org... (8) http://en.wikipedia.org... (9) http://en.wikipedia.org... (10) http://www.theguardian.com... (11) http://en.wikipedia.org... (12) http://en.wikipedia.org... (13) http://www.merriam-webster.com...