Pressuring noobs vs Pressuring experienced players in mafia games.

Thanks, Pro! == PRO'S ARGUMENTS ==C1. Scumtells vs. Noob MistakesPro says, "A new player may refuse to give up their character [upon pressure] or may give too much info including their role, or may copy-paste their role PM." First, giving up their character and/or role is exactly what they are being pressured to do. Plus, having a role revelation is not the end of the world (especially since most n00bs tend to not get the best roles for aforementioned reasons). I personally hate themed games, so role revelation is the only revelation in certain games anyway. Second, a new player may do the same even if they are not the first to claim. It is the responsibility of everyone to keep an eye out for n00bs and warn against potential mistakes. Finally, Pro says that experienced mafioso may pursue n00b mistakes and push for lynches based on these mistakes. If an experienced player were to do that, I would pick up on it as scummy. Noticing these patterns and behaviors is exactly what mafia is all about. If Pro can say that experienced mafia will use n00b mistakes against them, then he is acknowledging that there are patterns you can use to determine which experienced players may be mafia (though once again we've got nothing to go on with n00bs). C2. Assessment of GuiltPro writes, "My point is that pressuring players whose style you know is more efficient because their reactions give you more insight than pressuring players you don't know." In most cases you're merely relying on the claim itself. If we're playing in a Batman themed game, and I claim Batman, you are making a judgment based on the character that I claimed - not "my style." Now suppose I claimed a minor character. The mafia will attack any minor characters regardless of who claims them. I've mentioned that you don't need to pressure someone to see their style. Pro says that when someone is pressured, their reaction to the pressure is what is telling. That may be so, but it doesn't negate the fact that style can be assessed even without pressure or claims. Also, EVERYONE'S reaction is going to be defensive, so this isn't really helpful. Pro says that noticing if someone reverses pressure or "stubbornly demands" that more votes be placed on them before claiming are possible scumtells, and pressuring someone you don't know won't give you the same insight. Any experieneced player will not reveal information automatically (in most cases) without a sufficient amount of pressure, so these aren't scumtells. These are things the mafia picks out to specifically use against people and proclaim are scumtells whether it's true or not. If someone accuses me, and in turn I pressure them back, it doesn't necessarily make me guilty. I do it to mafia all the time. That is simply how the game is played. Sometimes you're lying, and sometimes you're not. C3. Info About a Player's RolePro says, "My argument is that new players unaware of how much they should reveal... For instance, a noob pressured for a character claim on DP1 may reveal that he/she is the doctor or watcher." Again, it is up to the other players to help avoid these mistakes. If they do make a mistake, c'est la vie. Also, in most themed games character claims are practically the same as role claims. If we're playing in a Harry Potter theme, and a n00b claims Harry, guess what - Harry is getting role blocked or killed regardless of whether or not the mafia knows his role. Pro also says "Con doesn't respond to the fact that if the new player pressured is mafia, they have the support of their mafia teammates so can think of a good claim." First, the mafia usually never has any idea what to claim on DP1 until they get a clue from a townie claim about what to say and what to avoid. Second, even so the mafia cannot typically claim a power character or role, so if they do claim that it's probably legit, and if they don't it will be suspicious just as it would by any minor character or role. C4. Strategies Used to Avoid Claiming Pro says, "Even if asked for a role-claim, an experienced player might be able to convince the town that it is not in their best interest to push for it." This is silly. If an experienced player says, "Don't pick me cuz I totally have an important role," people will either (a) say this is shady and make them claim anyway, or (b) it automatically puts a target on them for killing or role blocking. There really isn't much to this contention, and as I explained in an earlier round I've already addressed this point. Anyone who is initially pressured will be expected to claim a certain level of information initially. This is dependant on the theme and not experience. == CON'S ARGUMENTS ==C4. I pointed out that when pressured, n00bs (because they tend to suck at being mafia) typically fold under pressure and do not put up a decent fight because they aren't experienced enough to know how. Meanwhile it is harder to assess an experienced player's guilt (i.e., bluesteel, tvellalott, etc.) so determining their guilt is better left up to investigations and other scumtells, or character and role revelation later on in the game since they will be better at utilizing their night actions. Pro's only response is that, "But this creates a problem where the same group of experienced players always tend to be investigated first which is not a pleasant experience for anyone." Actually the only people it isn't pleasant for are those experienced players in particular, and F-16 is preaching to the choir. I am one of those players. It sucks. But you know what? More people play, become experienced, and eventually everyone (or most people) become equally threatening. Before bluesteel started playing mafia, 9/10 night actions were directed toward me on NP1 (some mod gave me that statistic -- I think askbob). Now, players have other threats to choose from. Plus, everyone's style is different. I tend to not automatically target big players early on with my night actions, but that's me. C5. I've said that with experienced players, you have figured out patterns that you recognize that can help you deduce whether or not they are mafia. With a n00b, you are completely blind to their playing style and have absolutely no idea what to look for or notice when they participate. Therefore, claims are the ONLY initial way to determine one's level of suspicion. Pro says, "Their [experienced players] reaction to pressure IS the read that you should be looking for." This is merely Pro's opinion and is certainly not the only way to assess style. I've pointed out that everybody is going to be defensive regardless of their affiliation. I've also specifically named other ways to determine one's game-play that have nothing to do with reacting to pressure, such as how they vote, who they pressure and why, the tone of what they say and how they say it, their activity level, bandwagoning, etc. C6. The point is simple - The only way to tell if a n00b's idiocy is legitimate or not is to get a definitive claim from them. Pro says this can "go both ways" and that since experienced mafioso play pro-town, you ought to rely on a claim from them. This isn't true because -- once again -- there are other things you can rely on for assessment. Meanwhile, with a noob the ONLY intitial way to assess how they are playing is with a claim, because they don't know how they SHOULD be playing. If I make a mistake, it would be indicative of my guilt. If a n00b makes a mistake, it is definitely not necessarily indicative of their guilt. ---My other contentions were never important so they can easily be dropped with no detriment to my case. However, FYI it's not true that most mods assign roles randomly. I don't want to lose Sources points automatically, so I will reference the same source in which it is specifically outlined to make sure there are equal levels of experience on both sides which goes against the idea of random assignments [1].[1] http://www.debate.org...