God/s exist in GRRMs World of Ice and Fire

Con has countered that the initial resurrection of Beric Dondarrion, by Thoros of Myr, was accidental. I readily agree to this and it is not disputed. But the claim I made was that “only a Red Priests of R’hllor can perform this type of resurrection, by performing the funeral rite, because there is no evidence that the same form of resurrection can be performed by others, through different methods”. As it is, the claim stands. Con has not shown any evidence that the specific form of resurrection used by Thoros can be performed by other magic-users, through any different methods. The fact that the first resurrection of Beric was performed accidentally, is inconsequential to my argument. If it were possible that the resurrections of Beric Dondarrion were begin conducted without the aid of a supernatural being with intelligence, then it would be logical to presume that other users of magic who are not Red Priests would be able to perform the same type of resurrection without invoking R’hllor. There is no evidence that this is the case. Con claims that the only reason Thoros believes that R’hllor is responsible for the magic that he has performed is because his education has led him to dogmatically believe this. This is also possible, but does not prove that such a belief is incorrect. Con has still not shown that anyone other than a Red Priest, invoking R’hllor, can perform a resurrection of the type performed by Thoros on Beric Dondarrion. Con has argued that the fact that the visions seen by the Red Priests in their fires are vague, and that this is proof that R’hllor does not exist, or that R’hllor is a fool, or that R’hllor is being blocked by another god. The second two possibilities support my argument that R’hllor does in fact exist, so I will focus on the first. The fact that the visions are vague are not the result of the visions themselves, but of their interpretation. “It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study.” Melisandre, A Dance with Dragons “There is truth in the flames, but it is not always easy to see”. Melisandre, A Storm of Swords “Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent.” Melisandre, A Dance with Dragons The three excerpts above support the claim that the vagueness of the visions in not inherent to visions themselves, but in the interpretation by the interpreter. False interpretation of a message does not show that the messenger does not exist, any more than any misinterpretation proves that the messenger does not exist. Con has argued that prognostication is in fact not unique to Red Priests of R’hllor and that this shows proof that prognostication in and of itself is not proof of the existence of R’hllor. I do not dispute the fact that other magic users in the series have shown the ability to see the future. However, none of the other characters who have been able to prognosticate are able to do so in the same manner that the Red Priests do, through looking into the flames and invocation. There is no evidence that these other characters can see the future in flames, or that the Red Priests that can see the future in the flames can do so through any other means used by other prognosticators. In this manner the ability to see the future as the Red Priests do is indeed unique to the Red Priests. Con argues that R’hllor is obsessed with spreading the faith that follows him, and the fact he has not convinced everyone is proof that he does not exist. Again, con gives three options; that R’hllor does not exist, that R’hllor does not intervene, or that the Great Other completely overpowers R’hllor. First, there is no direct evidence that R’hllor indeed is obsessed with spreading the faith of the Red God. There is evidence that the Priests themselves desire to spread the faith, but this is not evidence that R’hllor himself is obsessed with either proving his existence or spreading the faith. Second, con provides two possibilities that would answer why R’hllor would not be able to act independently or create proof of his existence. These possibilities actually support my argument, and may stand as they are, but I will provide a third possibility. The author of the series, George RR Martin, has expressly stated that at no point will a god or gods manifest themselves in a manner as to create a deus ex machina. “I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays.” George RR Martin interview http://io9.com... The fact that R’hllor, or any other god, has not manifested itself in order to prove it’s existence is explained by one simple concept. It would make a horrible story. If R’hllor were all powerful he could supposedly manifest and solve all of the World of Ice and Fire’s problems and then rule from a golden throne like Zeus on mount Olympus. But that would make a horrible story in the opinion of George RR Martin, and probably the majority of his readers. Con has provided evidence that other gods, such as the Seven, do not exist. However, this evidence does not counter the evidence I have provided that R’hllor exists. Finally, con has argued that there is no evidence of any supernatural being in the World of Ice and Fire that could be described as transcendent, and that R’hllor may be a supernatural being with physical form, such as the Greenseers. In order to make this argument, Con must first concede that R’hllor does in fact exist, and that he is an agent in the magic performed by his followers, which con has in fact argued again in the majority of the claims he has made. This negates the arguments made that R’hllor does in fact not exist at all, or that he is not an agent, and narrows the argument to a single contention, that R’hllor is not transcendent. While it is undeniable that certain individuals with supernatural abilities are in fact physical beings, this does not in fact disprove the existence of transcendent beings within the World of Ice and Fire. While the Greenseers have been proven to be undoubtedly physical beings, there is no proof that R’hllor is in fact a physical being. Without evidence to support the claim that R’hllor is a physical supernatural being, it is reasonable to assume, considering the setting where the supernatural is obvious, that R’hllor is an immaterial, transcendent being.