The LDS Concept of Faith is Irrational.

Con says my “definition of faith is on-point” however, then proceeds to give several more definitions. He says “to the LDS people, faith is action. Faith cannot exist without works. Faith is not a belief. Faith is the actions that follow beliefs.” This is clearly not the case via the definitions provided. The example my opponent gives is the quote from James that says “I will shew thee my faith by my works.” In other words the action that follows faith. Works are the impact of having faith, not faith itself. It is incoherent to say that faith is not a belief and say that my definitions are on-point. Con then refers to the parable in Alma 32 concluding that “faith in the LDS concept is actually an epistemology, or a "theory of knowing." Again this is not coherent with what has already been shared. This “spiritual experiment” is the action required to “grow” faith. The process by which to grow something is not that something itself. The process of growing a tree is not a tree itself, and the process of growing faith is not faith itself. Because of this, con’s thoughts of the parable are not on-point, rather they miss the mark. In fact the verses quoted are “the theory of increasing faith.” Con says “In plain English - You can know that a principle is true, if you try it with the utmost commitment, and you can see that promised spiritual results occur.” I spent years of my life trying my “utmost” to commitment. The promised spiritual results did not occur. Now I realize this is an appeal to personal experience, but as my opponent has suggested that personal commitment is the only way to know (“if you try it…. you can see…”) it is sufficient response to negate the appeal to personal revelation. Next is listed an example of how someone may “know.” Again I quote from the same chapter of the Book of Mormon “faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things.” Again it is worth noting that con has said my definitions of faith are on point and here is clearly stated that faith is not a perfect knowledge. Knowing something and having faith in something is then two separate things. Vs. 34 of the same chapter states “Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant” (1) This is a perfect example of how the LDS concept of faith is incoherent. We have established it is LDS theology that if you have a perfect knowledge your faith is dormant. God supposedly has a perfect knowledge, and yet it is taught that he created the world through faith. (2) It becomes clear from this example that though members of the LDS faith accept both as true, they are inconsistent. Thus to believe both is incoherent and unreasonable. For much of the remainder of the debate con lists that he finds my argument compelling against born again Christians. This is a welcome endorsement. Con states “I realize that spiritual evidence is simply unacceptable to someone who doesn"t believe.” This is the crux of this debate. I tried to believe my whole life and find it at odds with what I can observe to be true. The placebo effect is an interesting addition to this debate. If faith is a placebo that only means that a few people may seemingly have positive effects from it… this does not make it reasonable, rational, or ideal. It just makes it a placebo. Lastly my opponent makes an appeal to population. Millions cant be wrong can they? Sure they can. People have believed many things through the ages by the millions. For example, the belief that the world was flat, or the center of the universe. Just because many people believe something does not imply truth and in this case does not imply reason. Overview: “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen… is not a perfect knowledge… hope for things unseen.” Evidence is “that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.” Thus, A plain understanding of faith is to believe in something without grounds for belief. Therefore, The LDS Concept of Faith is incoherent, irrational, and unreasonable. Sources: (1) https://www.lds.org... (2) https://www.lds.org...