America is a Christian Nation

"Of the People, by the people and for the people" This is the reason that our gvn't shouldn't be avowedly Christian. Not everyone is Christian. The gvn't does allow you to be Christian in any way you want to be. "The ideals of the country ARE ideals of the our government..." If this is true think about this... During the recent battle over immigration policy and amnesty, it was estimated that 70% of the people were against the bill being pushed through in the Senate by democrats, few republicans, and our President. If we were always a gvn't "Of the people..." Then they would've bowed to the will of the people more readily, but they didn't. "Therefore, if the Declaration was based on the Enlightenment, it could be said to be indirectly based on whatever the Enlightenment is based on-- and that is most certainly *not* Christianity. Indeed, many Enlightenment philosophers got into a lot of trouble for their anti-Christian writings-- see Spinoza." "The problem is that the Declaration was not based on anything other than freedom from England. The enlightenment didn't have anything to do with the declaration or vice versa. "Now, as to the religion of the founding fathers, which you are backing off on-- I think it's of vital importance for your claim, and here's why. Would a bunch of non-Christians agree to create a country founded upon it? No! And when we look at several of the influential leaders, we see Deists. Jefferson, Paine, Franklin, Madison. The list goes on. These were people who greatly shaped the course of the country's founding, and they were not Christians-- at least, not in the sense that we're discussing: the Christian religion, probably including beliefs in its miracles and certainly in the God of the Bible. But even the Christians among them felt that their religion was their OWN BUSINESS and nobody else's." I'm only "backing off" because you can take a bunch of different out of context from the founders to prove anything...but here's something to think of... On June 28, 1787, Franklin made a formal motion for prayers at the Constitutional Convention. The text of the motion itself reads: "I therefore beg leave to move, That henceforth Prayers, imploring the Assistance of Heaven and its Blessing on our Deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to Business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that Service." BTW, this was the Christian faith. This is not disputed by anyone who looks at the historical texts. I can post the full speech else where. "My own claim does not rely on the individual religious convictions of the founding fathers (because my claim is that the country wasn't founded upon their religious convictions), but your claim does-- it relies on the fact they were not only Christians, but they founded the country on that religion's principles. If you cannot prove those two things, then you have accomplished nothing." I thought that your claim was that America is not a Christian nation. It seems to me that you are trying to prove that America is not a Christian nation based on the fact that America's gvn't is not based on the Christian religion. If this is the case, that's like ALMOST like trying to prove that Americans are for Illegal immigration just because many of our gvn't officials are for it. You have yet to address the fact that 80% of our nation professes to be a Christian. This would constitute a Christian nation, Actually I believe that due to some polls we are the MOST Christian nation in the world. I think that we are quite close in agreement on the issue of the gvn't. I don't believe that the gvn't was OVERTLY founded on the Christian nation, but on some of the principles. but that's not the debate now is it...? Our debate is whether or not the American Nation is Christian. Throughout your posts, I have not yet seen you address thoroughly what the difference is between a gvn't is and a nation. "Noting that the founding fathers often corresponded with Enlightenment Philosophers such has Hume, read works of others such as Voltaire, or were prominent philosophers themselves, as is the case with Paine; Asserting that their own words and deeds indicate that they were disciples of the Enlightenment," Other than a couple of quotes and your own personal opinion, you have not yet proven definitely that they were disciples of the enlightenment. "I submit that it can only be concluded that the values that this country was founded upon were those of the Enlightenment-- and therefore, if they were drawn from ANY religion at all, it was Deism-- the religion nearly always associated with that movement." Deism is a religion that claims that while God created the world, he left it up to humans to do pretty much what they would. Since "Deism" also claims that their is a God, quotes that talk about God can be slanted either way. So in conclusion, I think the most stunning fact is that our nation is (80%) Christian. It doesn't matter that our current gvn't is not Christian, the current gvn't is out of touch with the people. The founders were Christian (as proved be a simple reading of their many of their letters, speeches, and wills which I will not put here because I don't have room) I do in fact believe that we are a Christian nation.