Fathers Should Have a Say in Abortion

As I have repeatedly shown your argument is based on a number of false premises. Ultimately stemming from a complete misunderstanding of the legal and ethical forces at work here. I've attempted to correct this mistakes a number of times. Exposing the flaws in your logic simply makes you to disagree and make the same mistake again. I suppose posting another errata to your position is proper etiquette. * Women are required to live up to their responsibility in the same way men are. * Children are the responsibility of both parents equally. Mothers are equally required to support their children. * When a man has sex with a women he is expected to provide support should a child result. * When a women has sex with a man she is expected to provide support should a child result. * Men don't support women with child support, they support the child. * Men don't have *any* responsibility to the women they have sex with. * Women don't have *any* responsibility to the men they have sex with. * Parents *always* have responsibility to the children they have. * It is exactly the same, from an ethical standpoint, as some strange man coming along to try and control her body. * There is no child after conception. There is a child after 9 months of development. If you wanted to outright abolish abortion, then you should have said something and we could have had that debate. * Millions of other people believe in ghosts too, does that mean ghosts exists? * When it comes to choices about the the bodies of women, the women are the only people involved. * If she chooses to involve other people of her own volition, that's perfectly fine. * Encouraging women to believe that any man she has sex with has domain over her body is abhorrent. * There is no double standard against men. * Neither men nor women have any control over a pregnancy. * Women have control over their bodies. * It does not hold that because "Women have control over their bodies" that "women have control over a pregnancy" by proxy and therefore "Men should have control over women's bodies". * Fathers are always required to care for their children. * Mothers are always required to care for their children. * Custody battles are decided on the grounds of the best interest of the child. * Children do not belong to anybody. * The legal change which occurs at birth is simply that rights to your body are no longer paramount. * You still have no ownership of children after birth, they just aren't part of another person anymore. * I didn't say you disliked women. Many misogynists love women. * You are advocating that men should, by virtue of DNA, have rights to women's bodies. * Legislation giving men the rights to women's bodies, would be unconstitutional. * You above advocated that you didn't want to do that, now to support civil suits, you do. * Men can still sue. * Fathers are not just sperm donors. * Nothing gives men the right to control women's bodies. * Women (typically) don't get pregnant by themselves. However, it is their body and only their body. * Asking her to carry a pregnancy to term is fine, you can ask her dance a jig. You just don't have the right to make her. Ultimately however, it comes down to making your case, and you simply haven't done that. You picked your guns and you stuck to them. But, ultimately what seems to be a bit unjust is the only fair way of doing it. Nobody controls pregnancies or children, but everybody controls their own bodies. You are taking the fact that everybody controls their body, which allows one to terminate a pregnancy, to mean that mothers control their pregnancies and children and demanding that men be allowed to do that too. The logic there is critically flawed. Further, I think it's pretty dishonest of you to start a debate suggesting yourself pro-choice and then suggesting quite directly that you think conception instantly yields child. Am I to understand that if both parents want a child dead they should be allowed to have it killed? I suppose it's a tangential point but exceedingly odd, and I think rather telling. You seem to suggesting that women should be allowed to have abortions but only if men let them. If you wanted to properly debate abortion in a general debate you should have asked, make no mistake about it, that's a prolife stance. Ultimately I feel I have properly exposed the clear and obvious flaws in my opponents case. Since this debate was introduced as properly pro-choice, I didn't defend abortion as a general practice but rather showed how this position was inconsistent with an acceptable pro-choice stance. The burden was his to defend and he did a poor job of it. Fathers cannot have a say in abortion because father's aren't pregnant. Everybody has the right to make medical decisions about their bodies. Everybody has a responsibility to support their children. Nobody owns children.