Could the universe have come out of nothing without a cause

You: First of all, for the universe to have come out of nothing we must first establish that the universe is not infinite. This is currently widely accepted among many physicists, but I would like to give some evidence nonetheless. Some really strong evidence is the so called 'cosmic background radiation'. This is radiation that was emitted by the big bang, and it was predicted by theoretical models. In 1996 scientists, with the help of COBE (the Cosmic Background Explorer) found this radiation, proving that there was a beginning. In 2006 John C. Mather and George F. Smoot won the Nobel prize for physics for this discovery [1] Answer: I certainly agree that the universe had to come out of nothing and is not eternal, but there is a big difference between an universe form nothing without a cause and an universe from nothing caused by someone -- a creator. ________________________________ You: So the universe had a beginning, but that doesn't show that the universe could have started without a cause. We don't know why the universe exists, so I can't give proof for a way for the universe to exist without a cause. What I can and will do however, is show that the universe could not have had a cause. If we agree that the universe has come out of nothing (see my previous paragraph) and also agree that the universe could not have a cause, the only logical conclusion is that the universe must have come out of nothing without a cause. Answer: I accept that approach. ________________________________ You: This seems like a good point to define the word cause, to prevent annoying disagreements. I propose to use the definition from the oxford dictionary [2]: "A person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition:" From this definition and all other definitions that I could find one thing becomes clear: The cause necessarily comes before the effect. A cause can't possibly follow the effect. (If you'd like I could expand on that, but I will accept is a given fact until any evidence for the contrary is given. Answer: I accept the definition. ________________________________ You: If we indeed accept that a cause must exist before the effect, we must also conclude that the cause for the universe existed before the universe existed. However, that is impossible, because there is no 'before the universe existed'. Einstein 's theory of special relativity shows that time and matter are not separate .They are in fact both connected in spacetime [3]. Time does not exist without matter. This theory is supported by loads of evidence from observations in space. This is because Einstein's theory predicts that we can observe distortions in space caused by massive objects. Astronomers use this theory to be able to look around massive objects, something which would be impossible if Einstein's theory was incorrect. [4] Answer: The one who created time space and matter has to be outside of time space and matter, therefore, the laws of time space and matter do not apply to that someone. And therefore, that someone could have been uncaused and eternal in nature. The operation of the computer does not explain the origin of the computer, the operation of the universe does not explain the origin of the universe. ________________________________ You: I'll try to summarize in a deductive argument: Premise 1: The universe began to exist Premise 2: There was no matter before the universe existed Premise 3: Time and matter are connected in spacetime Premise 4: A cause precedes an effect Premise 5: Preceding something requires time to exist Conclusion 1: Based on premise 2 and 3 we can conclude that time did not exist before the universe began to exist Conclusion 2: Based on premise 4 and 5 we can conclude that a cause could not exist before the universe began to exist. Conclusion 3: Based on premise 1 and conclusion 1 and 2 we can conclude that the universe must have come out of nothing without a cause. Answer: Your premise number five is false. The creator would not necessarily need time to exist, because the creator created time itself. See my answer above for more detail. ________________________________