Immaculate Conception: Bible & Patristics

I am glad at Pro that he followed the rules. Here's my rebuttal to his arguments: 1) There is no scriptural proof that Jesus honored Mary as her mother by means of making her sinless in the womb. In fact, there are scriptural evidence that speaks of Mary's "flesh of sin" ( Romans 8:3) and that she's a slave of sin just like eveyone else in the post-fall because she received "grace" and only sinners were given grace ( Luke 1:28) as I have pointed out on Round 1.Pro is wrong that the original sin wasn't yet codified into systematic theology in the pre-Nicene period: St. Irenaeus writes toward the end of the 100's: ....having become disobedient, [Eve] was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race....Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith. ...But this man [of whom I have been speaking] is Adam, if truth be told, the first-formed man....We, however, are all from him; and as we arefrom him, we have inherited his title [of sin]. ...Indeed, through the first Adam, we offended God by not observing His command. Through the second Adam, however, we are reconciled, and are made obedient even unto death. For we were debtors to none other except to Him, whose commandment we transgressed at the beginning. (Against Heresies 3:22:4; 3:23:2; 5:16:3 emphasis mine) Later we find Tertullian (c. 200 AD) Finally, in every instance of vexation, contempt, and abhorrence, you pronounce the name of Satan. He it is whom we call the angel of wickedness, the author of every error, the corrupter of the whole world, through whom Man was deceived in the very beginning so that he transgressed the command of God. On account of his transgression Man was given over to death; and the whole human race, which was infected by his seed, was made the transmitter of condemnation. (The Testmiony of the Soul 3:2, c. 200 AD) Origin (c. 244 AD): Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin....And if it should seem necessary to do so, there may be added to the aforementioned considerations [referring to previous Scriptures cited that we all sin] the fact that in the Church, Baptism is given for the remission of sin; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of Baptism would seem superfluous. (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3) The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit. [cf. John 3:5; Acts 2:38]. (Commentaries on Romans 5:9) St. Cyprian of Carthage (c. 250 AD): If, in the case of the worst sinners and of those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from Baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin [committed no personal sin], except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old Death from his first being born. (Letters 64:5 of Cyprian and his 66 colleagues in Council to Fidus). 2) Mary as New Eve does not have a scriptural warrant. Pro quotes Irenaeus yet the church father did not say Mary was the "New Eve" verbatim. The church father simply exegete the parralel between the salvific plan of God both in the New Testament setting:And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.Pro also quotes Tertullian who ,likewise, did not say Mary was the "New Eve" verbatim. In fact, the church father is not aware of the Immaculate Conception ( notice what Tertullian wrote:)nto a virgin's soul, in like manner, must be introduced that Word of God which was to raise the fabric of life; so that what had been reduced to ruin by this sex, might by the selfsame sex be recovered to salvation. As Eve had believed the serpent, so Mary believed the angel. The delinquency which the one occasioned by believing, the other by believing effaced. But (it will be said) Eve did not at the devil's word conceive in her womb. Well, she at all events conceived; for the devil's word afterwards became as seed to her that she should conceive as an outcast, and bring forth in sorrow. Indeed she gave birth to a fratricidal devil; while Mary, on the contrary, bare one who was one day to securesalvation to Israel, His own brother after the flesh, and the murderer of Himself. God therefore sent down into the virgin's womb His Word, as the good Brother, who should blot out the memory of the evil brother. Hence it was necessary that Christ should come forth for the salvation of man, in that condition of flesh into which man had entered ever since his condemnation.Genesis 3:15 is only talking about one Woman: Eve. The one who came from Adam. She's the wife of Adam. She has no human father or mother. She alone is the mother of all the living for through her came forth offspring.Mary can't be a New Eve unless she's born without sin and have a husband who is born without sin too. Christians were "slaves of righteousness" ( Romans 6:18) and they never agree with Satan (Matthew 6:13) and they are not without sin ( 1 John 1:10). Jesus calls Mary "Woman" because he advances God's kingdom based on Mark 3:33 and Luke 11:28.3)Pro took Matthew 9:17 out of context. It's not about Mary.Presbyterians concur that Jesus has Mary's very flesh. I agree with Pro about that. On the other hand, Pro must agree with the Bible that Mary's flesh is the "flesh of sin" (Romans 8:3) which Jesus became similar with according to the same verse and Philippians 2:6.Augustine's version of the Original sin is what the true church has followed ( post-Nicene):"It was Augustine ( 4th century) promoted the idea that; "the fallen nature of Adam was transmitted biologically through sexual procreation."http://www.christianity-then-and-now.com...Human male (w/ O.S.) + Human female ( w/ O.S.) = offspring ( w/ O.S.)In Jesus' case: Sperm made by the Holy Ghost (w/ O.S.) + the Virgin Mary ( w/ O.S.) = offspring ( w/out O.S.)Amphilochius of Iconium ( 4th century) supports this:O Mary, O Mary, the Maker of all things was your firstborn Son! O humanity, who became the bodily substance of the Word and for that reason became more honorable than the spiritual virtues of heaven! For Christ did not want to clothe himself in the form of archangels or in the form of the immaterial figures of the principalities, virtues, and powers; rather, through you, he clothed himself in your form, which had fallen and become like that of the brute animals. …but where now is that hostile and bewildered dragon? Where is that cursed and execrable dragon, who had claimed that this throne would be raised to the heights of heaven?Conclusion: The early church, for a thousand years, adheres to the doctrine of original sin and only Jesus was born without it because only him was born of a virgin.4) Mary as Full of Grace: Mary is complete of grace. Hence, she does not have any sin.Response: I believe that Mary is perpetually full of grace. Full means she doesn't lack any grace. Grace means undeserved kindness. Hence, Mary " doesn't lack any undeserved kindness " from the Holy Trinity. But this led to the question of WHAT are those graces given to her? St. Luke didn't specify it. He just recorded Gabriel's greeting: kecharitomene.The autographa reads literally as:Greetings! You who have been graced!Vulgate is not literal translation of kecharitomene but a dynamic equivalence.Kecharitomene is not a title in Greek.Charito in kecharitomene is a VERB ( past participle).The Latin Vulgate translates it as NOUN whereas the english translation of latin vulgate is " full of grace" ( a noun also not a verb like what St. Luke originally wrote).Full of Grace in itself came from the Latin Vulgate not from the Greek MSS.kecharitomene is the Greek word found in Luke 1:26 and it is used by the church in Rome for proof about the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. To find out if this is plausible let's have a little grammar of the said word:ke- present perfect tense ( an action happened in the past that continues up to the present time).charito- grace, undeserve kindnessmene-passive participle( Mary Receiver not giver of grace)The Greek literally means " You have been graced".Mary has received grace from God both in the past and in the present. What she has received in the past is just continuing to be in her possession at Gabriel"s greeting. Hence, she is complete of grace at the time of the Annuniciation.In the Vulgate, Luke 1:28 says that Mary is "full of grace" and according to the Scriptures, only sinners are given grace.Grace means "undeserved kindness" .The Holy Angels can't be given grace because they are elected by God according to their works ( 1 Tim. 5:21).The Saints are given grace because they are elected by God not according to their works but according to God's grace ( Romans 11:5).Premise 1: Mary is given gracePremise 2: grace is given only to sinnersConclusion: Mary is a sinner 5) Gregory Thaumaturgus did not speak of Mary as New Eve verbatim and he, like most of the Fathers, speaks of Mary as Holy in the sense of "free of personal sin" NOT of original sin. On this matter, even the Orthodox church concur because it is explicit in the context of the writings of the Fathers that Jesus alone was botn without sin.