Separation of church and state

Allow me to quote myself as you have quoted me "A cross on display in a public museum or a school is not a law respecting an establishment of religion, nor is it a mandate you be a follower of Christ. Is it immoral? Well that's an entirely seperate issue. But illegal? Hardly" I made it clear that this debate was not to be about what groups should and shouldn't be allowed to do but rather what the law permits. I read the article that contains the quote you cited from science blog and based on that article it worries me that you might possibly be trying to portray me as a member of the religious right who's making the case that the exact words "seperation of church and state" aren't actually in the constitution so there really is no such thing as the wall of seperation. But of course we both already know no such term is used in the constitution, I was merely describing where a misconception about its meaning comes from. My position, once again, is that religious expression by members of public trust, such as teachers conducting group prayer in public schools is permitted by the constitution. The position you have chosen to defend was supposed to be contrary to that, there's no trap my friend, for the position you have agreed to defend has held up in the court of law many a time. In fact if you look at the many cases dealing with this very issue, I would contend that the majority of them in recent years have ruled in your favor. But lest I say more for the burden of proof lies with you and I think that it would be more fitting that I lay out some evidence of my own. But for your benefit, however, I will cite a case that ruled in favor of your position and that is Engel v. Vitale. I will quote an article that gives you a bit of background as to what the case was about and then I'll quote excerpts from the majority and dissenting opinions and the explain why latter is more compelling "Facts of the Case The Board of Regents for the State of New York authorized a short, voluntary prayer for recitation at the start of each school day. This was an attempt to defuse the politically potent issue by taking it out of the hands of local communities. The blandest of invocations read as follows: "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and beg Thy blessings upon us, our teachers, and our country." Majority Opinion "It is a matter of history that this very practice of establishing governmentally composed prayers for religious services was one of the reasons which caused many of our early colonists to leave England and seek religious freedom in America... [T]he successful Revolution against English political domination was shortly followed by intense opposition to the practice of establishing religion by law" Dissenting Opinion "I think the Court has misapplied a great constitutional principle. I cannot see how an 'official religion' is established by letting those who want to say a prayer say it. On the contrary, I think that to deny the wish of these school children to join in reciting this prayer is to deny them the opportunity of sharing in the spiritual heritage of our Nation." The dissenting opinion is far more compelling because comparing children voluntarily saying a prayer in school to the type of religious persecution faced by early colonists while in England is like comparing apples to oranges. The first amendment prohibits congress to make a law respecting and establishment of religion in order to prevent one faith being branded as the official religion of the land. When children say a prayer led by teachers in school no such law has been enacted, in fact congress has taken no part whatsoever. Unless the prayer is compulsory and/or there is a prerequisite to follow a certain faith if you are to become, for example, a teacher, than neither the religious liberty of the students nor their parents has been broken. "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." Arcording the the article from which you borrowed the above quote, Thomas Jefferson said this in response to whether or not tax dollars should go to contributing a Connecticut church. But of course congress requiring by law it's citizens give financial support to a certain faith would be considered as making a law in respects to an establishment of religion. When Jefferson told those people their legislature had no place creating these sorts of laws he was referring to the Establishment Clause and the Free Excercise Clause, the quote con selected proves that. Those Clauses both clearly pertain to congress and or the legislature. When children say prayers in groups during school congress has taken no part, they're simply exercising they're freedom to express religious beliefs in public domain. Sorry I didn't lay out clear enough rules to put us on the same page. I look forward to reading your responses. Sources http://www.infidels.org...... http://www.oyez.org...... http://www.pbs.org...... http://www.law.cornell.edu...... Report this Argument