Christianity

Glad to see you're still around. In previous debates I was actually impressed with you even though your command of the subject wasn't good, you seemed to be actually trying and thinking about the subject matter which is a massive positive in my book. I'll attempt to break the debate down into each claim you made and show how some or all of them are false. * Christianity is an exclusive religion in that it asks you to dedicate your life to God. -- This seems to be an apt understand as the gospels do suggest that you should sell all your belongings, give the money to the poor, and travel the world spreading the word. This is a very bad suggestion and thankfully nobody does this. * Christianity is great in that every lesson Jesus taught is positive and has good meaning. -- This I cannot agree with. I feel that a number of the lessons taught are very bad advice. Further, they aren't followed and should not be followed. The above noted passage where Jesus tells you to sell your stuff and travel around, that's *REALLY* bad advice. Cutting off ties to your family is similarly bad advice. A number of the parables sound good, until you think about them like the Parable of the Unjust Steward which gives absolutely horrific advice telling you to embezzle in order to make friends and go to heaven. There's also random stuff like attacking the money changers with a scourge (that he made himself). People are doing their job, he goes home, makes a whip with shards of metal and glass and attacks them with it, he doesn't wow them with wisdom or use some Godly power... he attacks them like a crazy person. In another part of the gospel he cursing a fig tree because it didn't have any fruit. I'm often at a loss to find nice parts of the gospel. People often talk about how Jesusy they should be, but honestly, if you read the gospel Jesus isn't anywhere near as Jesusy as he's made out to be. "49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (Luke 12:49-53) -- And similar such statements were used to justify the Crusades. "6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6) -- was used to justify the inquisition and burning of dissidents to the church. * If everybody were to live by the ten commandments life would be a lot easier. -- Most of the ten commandments are abhorrent. They do not make life easier, rather they undermine society and demand the death penalty for thought crimes. The only two non-objectionable commandments are "Do not steal" and "Do not kill", and those are universal to every law code known. A just society is a society for which everybody can play an equal part without objection. The need for religious tolerance and religious freedom lead the Founding Fathers to make the first amendment. This resounding principle, emerging from Enlightenment ideas is one of the greatest advances society has made... The first four commandments would be violations of the first amendment. These first four commandments make it an equal crime to murder your mother on a Monday or baking her a pie the day before. They condemn you for having your great grandfather draw a picture of a fish. Honoring your parents may be a good idea but stoning to death unruly children does not make for a just society. Adultery had more to do with the fact that the Bible treats women as property than with creating a just society. In fact, the coveting prohibitions mention not coveting male or female slaves... so treating people as property is a common theme. Elsewhere the Bible specifically allows slavery and tells you which slaves to buy and sell, how to keep them in service to you, and how hard to beat them. * Though some may be negative following the Bible would be a net positive. -- I know there are a number of moral Christians. They aren't, however, moral because they are Christian and because they follow the Bible, they are moral in spite of it. Most of modern society has moral people. These people aren't moral because they believe the Bible, but rather because they don't. The proclamations of the Bible are disturbing and wrong. They do not provide a moral framework for actions or just laws to fashion society after. Most of the progress of modern society has been progress specifically because they moved away from the more Biblical rules. ------------------------------ I do not believe that Biblical Christianity is a positive force in this world. The Bible is manifestly unjustified and advocates bronze aged logic and laws. Our modern society is far more peaceful and far more just and it got to be that way by rebelling against people who advocated the Bible as a moral compass. Aesop's fables are largely better lessons, Shakespeare is better written, and the weather channel gets predictions right more often. How do you manage to stay moral when using a book that advocates death for thought crimes and homosexuality, and calls abomination shellfish to cotton-polyester blend? There's a reason why there are so many cafeteria Christians... if you were to believe all or even most of the Bible... you'd be insufferable and immoral.