The Kill Command is Irrational

Thank you for debating this with me. First, I do want to make clear that by “God” I assume two things: God is RationalGod is Good I don’t believe these are extreme restrictions. I will admit that an evil or irrational God would use Proxy Killing. That is not the scope of this argument.| CONSTRUCTIVE |It is rational for a testing of loyalty. 1. The problem is that we, nor the person receiving the message can distinguish between God telling them to kill, or madness. They wouldn't know if they were being loyal, nor would the victim.Andrea Yates claims God told her to kill her children. Was this a test or madness? Most people, including herself (now that she is medicated) realize it was madness. However, in her mind she was being loyal. Why would a rational God use something so close to mental illness as a sign of loyalty? I see ou claiming it is a rational test for loyalty, but how? Are we to reason the 9-11 a-holes were blessed to fulfill the Loyalty Challenge? 2. Plus, wouldn’t the loyalty to a Good, Rational God be the REFUSAL to kill? Particularly, if that God has already commanded “Thou shall not kill” as an over-reaching command? Why would a rational God say “don’t kill” then say “kill”? It is inherently irrational. Might do it to discourage certain behavior within a nation through Fear. 1. But for all the people you might gain from fear, you lose by disgust over a God that would use fear to manipulate the very people the God (allegedly) loves. 2. As for our legal system, this flatly doesn’t apply. Just because it is rational for us (who cannot kill people by supernatural means, nor have perfect judgment) to kill by proxy doesn’t mean we should measure God by human standards. Your argument is, in a way, saying “Hey, we do it, so it must be OK for God to do it” This is backwards. 3. Plus, you are placing yourself in the position of this: You are commanded to kill all the men, women, children, pets and livestock of any entire village – because they are evil. How do you reconcile the claim that a Good, Rational God has told your boss to kill everyone, and the fact that you can’t distinguish this from madness? 4. Plus, the Janjuweed regularly went around killing people in the name of God. Wouldn’t the fear brought upon by killing for God by Proxy actually lead to violent reprisal on the people committing such violent and horrible acts? I doubt anyone looks at the school massacre at Beslan and think those people we justified to strike fear into people in that way. It made them targets for assassination, not lauded for their loyalty to God.5. You are saying this fear is to tell people what God wants: How would we know anything other than "God wants us to kill our enemies"?It seems you have suddenly flipped the script - then, when the killing is done, you want to say "God says don't kill".But I'm not convinced you have made the case that God is commanding anyone to kill or not kill. It seems like madness to me. Not the expereince of a Good, Rational God. 6. Making people disappear in front of others (something God could do) would instill the same kind of fear - and, in fact, distinguish between God taking you out and a mad man.Clearly, this is more rational. By showing one option that is more rational than the one you propose (that can be confused with mental illness and the tactics of a dictator), I defeat your point. | REBUTTAL | Psycho Killers Exactly! We would have no idea if God sent him to kill you, or not. So, if that’s the case, why would God send him to kill you when God could simply cause you to have an aneurism? God could stand in front of you, give his reasons for wnating you dead, and cleanly take you out. I’m not aware of any Good or Rational reason a God would want you to suffer before he sends you to eternal suffering, or eternal joy? Efficiency vs Sufficiency 1. The command, in the example you reference, was to kill everyone. Here you are saying that a Rational and Good God meant to be imprecise? "Kill everyone... well, except the fast ones?" 2. But, yes, why wouldn’t a Good/Rational God do the killing himself? He, allegedly, has had no problem sending floods and plagues, or putting demons into pigs, or hardening hearts… All things, BTW, that are more rational than proxy killing, but none of them actually solve the problem of “why would God be so unclear about why and who he wants dead?” None of these rebuttals are even coming close to why God wants people dead in the first place! CLEARLY it is not because they are sinners – since we know many sinners live long, full lives. All we know is that a man with an army said God told him to kill – because they were wicked. A 'possible reason' is not a reason if it doesn’t make sense. The Kill Rebuke As I said, if you don’t believe God is Good or Rational, then this argument holds little force. If there is a Good and Rational God, then the argument still stands. In this example, you are – again – appealing to what Man does and then presume it’s Good for God to do also.Yet, we all know that if the world was populated by completely rational people, if any killing was going to happen, it would be clear and reasonable – if at all. The argument is, if God is Good and Rational, then the use of Proxy Killing can’t be from this God. Consider: A man breaks into your house. Has killed your Mom and Dad, is about to kill you baby brother – and looks at you and says “God commanded we kill you because you are evil”. What possible rational purpose would God have to put you, your family, or the killer through this if the killer as been commanded to do it from a “voice in the head” or from a man who claims to “speak to God”? If there is a rational reason for you to accept the killing, then I’d like to hear it. Otherwise, I don’t see any rational reason you should allow the person to continue to kill – and you have not made that case. That is, if there is a rational reason for Proxy Killing, it must make rational sense for you, yourself, to submit to the knife of a murderer who claims to be killing for God.Our expereince with people who kill because God told them meets none of the rationalizations you propose here.I wouldn't think it rational to allow myself to be killed because God told someone to kill an entire town, and allowed some people to escape after telling the killers to let noone escape.I wouldn't think it rational to allow myself to be killed so God can use it to scare future generations.Con must finish this sentence with a convincing reason:"The reason I would let a man kill me, because he said God told him to, is __________________________________."