Experts' Tier R1: In a fair fight, Mace Windu would likely defeat Yoda.

Thanks Ninja for a truly wonderful, nerdy debate! PRO's CASECon claims he addressed my case; but, by the sheer number of drops he made last round, we can see that he didn't.1. Shatterpoint: Con asserts this ability is useful only when the opponent is unaware of it--incorrect. Con says that Yoda would guard his weak areas. Yet, this isn't how shatterpoint works. In every battle, someone is going to make a mistake or is going to have a weakness. It's impossible to be that flawless that you make no error at all. These mistakes are what shatterpoint shows. Consider, if Yoda momentarily held his blade a few millimeters too high, shatterpoint would make this instantly clear to Windu and he could take advantage of it. Normally, the force is not that precise--shatterpoint is specifically able to zero in and target things like that. Remember, Yoda lacks this ability.2. If Windu called on this ability even once, he would be able to move far faster than Yoda, who doesn't have this power. He could land multiple blows before Yoda could move. In other words, Windu would only need to use it once, if he chose to use it.3. Agreed.4. I disagree here. Even Yoda must stop leaping sometimes. Look at his duel with Dooku [1]; Dooku got him in a saber lock and was able to deploy the force in the meantime to try to crush Anakin and Obi-Wan. If Windu got a similar opportunity, Yoda would likely be dead after the force grip seized him. Also, Con admits that Yoda "would certainly not utilize such a technique. "5. What Con's shown here is that Yoda can lift heavy objects--you have not proven that Windu could not do the same. Therefore, you cannot say that Yoda is stronger at telekinesis than Windu. However, we can look at the speed at which they can deploy telekinetic powers. Look at Yoda's encounter with Dooku and his lifting the X-wing on Dagobah. Yoda took time and focus to do both of those things, leaving him vulnerable to attack while he was concentrating. Windu could lift the AT-TE "with apparent ease. " [2] Therefore, Windu can lift heavy objects faster than Yoda. 6. Con tries to preclude my arguments entirely here. In fact, another canon source writes, "In Dooku's later years, only Yoda and. .. Mace Windu, were considered equal to his skill with a lightsaber. " [3] If Yoda = Dooku, and Dooku = Windu, then Windu = Yoda. Consequently, Windu and Yoda are relatively equals in lightsaber combat. This is true insofar as Yoda and Windu are separated only by Vaapad, a subset of one of the forms. Windu still has an edge here because of his more comprehensive knowledge.7. Con says that Yoda's skills and acrobatic prowess would allow him to avoid these Vaapad techniques. Vaapad is meant to be used against skilled duelists [4] like Yoda, and isn't stymied by those factors. Vaapad also requires integration of the force, making these akin to force abilities. Just as know-how cannot prevent shatterpoint from working, such things cannot prevent assured strike and swift flank from working. 8. This is not about "tricking" someone. Yoda tricked a droid. Windu tricked no one; he just used brute force. Yoda has never displayed power on par with Windu--nor has Yoda shown an aptitude for being able to use hand-to-hand combat like Windu. 9. I explained in my last speech that Yoda was not about to defeat Dooku. 10. Con admits: "Yoda may not be a distinguished pilot. " If this fair fight was an aerial one, or if it moved into the sky, Windu would have the advantage.11. Con admits that there is no evidence that Yoda could wield two blades at once well, while Windu can. If Windu attacked him with two blades, Yoda would have two blades to parry with his single blade. Moreover, Ventress was not equal to Dooku or Yoda. Since Windu is equal to Dooku and Yoda, he is superior to Ventress. Windu would better resist Yoda's attempts to disarm him. Keep in mind, Yoda never disarmed Dooku.12. Being a battle strategist is not the same as being a strategic duelist. A general looks at a map and analyzes decisions. In a duel, there is less time to think. If Yoda had been a more strategic thinker in his duels, maybe Dooku wouldn't have escaped.13. Yoda had energy because he was using force valor. Yet, Yoda has to flee from Sidious even though he is alive and armed. Why would Yoda do that if he still had energy? Yoda could only keep up his performance momentarily--but he couldn't keep in up much longer. Moreover, Con is ignoring the wealth of canonical evidence that shows that Yoda would tire quickly.14. Con almost makes my own point here: "Yoda would not have lived. .. if he allowed duels to go on past his energy reserves. " Yoda could have fought Sidious longer had Yoda had more energy: "But, exhausted and holding onto a smooth edge, Yoda lost his grip and fell several stories to the Senate floor. Battered and weary, Yoda knew that re-engaging Sidious would be fruitless. " [5] Regardless of why Yoda truly fled, it is clear that his energy had evaporated. CON's CASE-- Yoda's Force Powers --Con DROPS the following: "Dooku fled because he knew reinforcements would arrive to assist Yoda. Notice, Dooku leaves seconds after Padme and her clones arrive. There is no evidence that Yoda alone would've defeated Dooku. " Instead of responding to my new argument, Con just repeats an old one that doesn't address this alternate causality. Con asserts that I did not cite any source showing loop was a Vaapad technique. In fact, I provided sources in round two; see: [1, 6] The loop is aggressive because it abides by the idea that the best defense is a good offense--defending oneself by flinging the energy back at one's attacker. Thus, Con's remarks are baseless and my arguments STAND. Therefore, extend that Vaapad isn't just a lightsaber technique and extend that Yoda wouldn't be skilled in it. Con's analogy with the storm is faulty. The conscious decision isn't to go out into the storm, but rather to redirect the lightning. If you choose how to redirect the lightning, you're controlling it. Moreover, the canonical sources describe the loop as a skill--this implies that it is not a byproduct. [1, 6] And, while Windu can't control the weather (i. e. when Sidious flings lightning at him), he can consciously create a feedback loop to redirect it at Sidious. Yoda lacks this skill--he has to wait until after Dooku finishes before he can hurl the energy back at Dooku. Windu is doing all this simultaneously. Con again DROPS that "'Windu has a greater range of [force] options' because he's more willing to use 'powerful, darker force techniques. '" -- Yoda's Lightsaber Abilities -- Con CONCEDES that Windu has a more comprehensive mastery of lightsaber skills in that Windu is an expert in Vaapad, whereas Yoda is not. Con did drop the points about Ataru insofar as he never challenged that it was tiring and hard to use in confined spaces. Con insists that Yoda is competent at other lightsaber forms--I agree. However, he is still psychologically more likely to use Ataru. Con never challenges that this is true; he DROPS it. Therefore, Yoda would likely use Ataru, further tiring him out. Con seizes on the word "fortunate. " That's not important--the important word is "quick;" it shows that Yoda was not expending energy for a long period of time. Con hasn't provided evidence of how Yoda could withstand a lengthy duel. -- Yoda's Past Feats -- Con never challenges that both Windu and Yoda were generals or defends his hailfire droid example. They're DROPPED. Whether or not Yoda needed the help is immaterial. The fact is that he did have it--therefore, we will never know if Yoda could've gone it alone (and without a lightsaber). Whereas, with Windu, we do know that he could do it alone (and without a lightsaber) from the example I provided. We should prefer clear evidence re: Windu over vague evidence re: Yoda. The video clearly showed clones assisting Yoda by causing a rock formation to fall on the droids. Con is flat out wrong when he says my source doesn't prove the clones helped. Con is summarizing my position, not rebutting it. It's DROPPED; extend my points re: Windu and Order 66. -- Mace Windu --The false premise was "that Windu lost to Skywalker. " Windu, in fact, lost to Sidious and Skywalker. Had Windu faced Skywalker 1-on-1, Windu would have defeated him--Windu is more skilled. Con then tries to say that Windu can't out outflank his enemies. However, Anakin walked in ex post facto. Windu didn't know Anakin was his enemy until seconds before Anakin struck. Con says, "pro states that Windu came closer to defeating Sidious than Yoda, in the end, both still failed. " Con never actually contests that Windu came closer. It's DROPPED. Con misconstrues "better. " Yoda should have done better than he did. VOTING ISSUESWindu would win because: 1. Shatterpoint would help him exploit Yoda's weaknesses2. Windu's force speed would let him land multiple blows before Yoda could move3. Windu can use force grip unlike Yoda4. Windu can deploy telekinesis faster5. Windu can use two blades unlike Yoda6. Windu is better at hand-to-hand7. Windu is the better pilot8. Windu is a great strategist while dueling9. Windu can use darker, more powerful force abilities than Yoda10. Windu came closer to offing Sidious11. Windu has a more complete mastery of lightsaber skills 12. Vaapad lets Windu use Swift Flank, Assured Strike, and the loop--Yoda can't.13. Yoda would tire out quickly; if Windu could drag it out (it seems like he could) Windu would get the advantage SOURCES1 - . http://starwars.wikia.com...2 - . http://www.youtube.com... The Video (Dooku). 4:30-4:453 - . http://starwars.wikia.com...4 - . http://starwars.wikia.com...5 - . http://starwars.wikia.com...6 - . http://starwars.wikia.com...Thanks!