Total Depravity

INTRODUCTION: It's rather unfortunate that you think so highly of TULIP - given that it is not only a largely unfounded systematic theology, but it is hopelessly devoid of the characteristics of God that are so categorically present in the Bible (e.g. Love and Justice). Nevertheless, I will use this final round to respond directly to some criticisms raised in both your round 2 and 3. WHENCE COMETH THIS FAITH? In this part of the debate my opponent utilizes selective reading - insofar as he uses less clear parts of the Bible to support a point that is clearly refuted by other parts of the Bible. For example, when I gave numerous examples of Biblical figures both choosing to have faith and/or teaching that faith is the product of man, my opponent cites Ephesians 2:8, which clearly refers to grace being a gift, not faith. Or Hebrews 12:2, where it says Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith, is referring to how Jesus is the REASON for our faith. This sort of selective reading is disingenuous to the text. In the very same passage, the author of Hebrews warns us not to turn away from our faith (Hebrews 12:25). Moreover, if the faith is not OURS, inasmuch as it was not a property of our will, then why is it referred to as a property of human will? Why is it that we have the ability to turn away from it? Hebrews teaches the following: "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." Hebrews 6:4-6 ON NOAH My opponent has either not read the text, or is deliberately oversimplifying its nuances in order to better fit within a bias. He kept saying that Noah was horrible and was ill-deserving of this unmerited grace. BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. In fact, my opponent is clearly reading that INTO the text. The Bible clearly says, "Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God." The Hebrew word, Tamiyd (translated as blameless), means perfect, without spot, without blemish or undefiled.[1] It is this Hebrew word that makes my opponent's whole argument null. Noah was perfect among the people of his time! But it does not stop there, because Job was also blameless.[2] But the problems continue, because Enoch also walked with God and was taken straight to heaven because of it.[3] Elijah too, because of his righteousness, was taken up to heaven in a chariot of fire![4] The idea that people are totally unable to come to God is, according to the Bible, verifiably untrue. PHILOSOPHICAL PROBLEM "I affirm with John 3:16 and 1 Timothy 2:4 that God loves the world with a deep compassion that desires the salvation of all men. " You have, one again, failed to respond to the relevant points. How is it loving for a Father to create a situation for his children in which there is no possibility for success, only failure. And when they do, in fact, fail, he holds them 100% accountable for that failure! If you truly affirm that God loves the whole world, and has also died for all men in it ("He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2), then you must recognize the absurdity in saying that, though he desires them all and has died for them all, he does not allow all the ability to receive the gift. You have made the fall so much greater than the redemption - and it's deeply disconcerting. For Jesus teaches that he not only died for all, but that he DRAWS ALL: "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."[5] Most troubling also, is the fact that you think man somehow deserves hell under Total Depravity. But it is only under my view that man deserves hell - insofar as he has the POSSIBLITY of choosing to the contrary, and, unfortunately, does not. How can someone be held responsible for something that they had no ability NOT to do? Would you yell at a blind man for being born blind? Would you get angry at a child for being born? If man is totally incapable of NOT sinning, then man is not to blame for that which he cannot control. LOSING FAITH: Yes, it is a Biblical fact that people can reject/lose salvation. 2 Peter was talking about those who have "escaped" the world by "knowing our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ." If they then turn their backs on Jesus, it would have been better for them never to have believed at all...what does that tell you? Moreover, Jesus taught that: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."[6] Jesus talks more about how me must persevere in OUR faith: "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."[7] Why are Gods prophets pleading with us to change our ways or follow God's decrees if we have no will to do so? Why would God command his people to follow the path of life and follow his decrees if he knew they could not? Why would Christ insist that it is the few that find the path and not the path that finds the few? Why would Christ make a call for the heavy-laden to come? If God's chosen will be irresistibly drawn and persevere to the end, why does the author of Hebrews insist that those who have been enlightened can fall?[8] Why does James believe that believers can wander from the truth?[9] Did John get Jesus' words correctly; will the branches that were once part of the true vine (Christ) be cut off and thrown away if they do not bear fruit?[10] Can a believer really shipwreck their faith as Paul insists?[11] Does Paul really believe that we could be cut off from the Christ like so many Jews were?[12] Jesus makes it very clear that some people, who do believe, in times of testing can fall away.[13] CONCLUSION: Thank you for debating this subject with me Doctor and I hope that we can have another debate in the near future. It became clear that we both had far too much to say in far too little space. Sources: [1] Strong's 8549 [2] Job 1:1 [3] Genesis 5:24 [4] 2 Kings 2:11 [5] John 12:32 [6] John 15:6 [7] Matthew 24:10-12 [8] Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. [9] James 5:19-20 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. [10] John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. [11] 1 Timothy 1:19 …have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. [12] Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. [13] Luke 8:13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.