The Jesus Myth Debate

It's really fine. My friends think I'm a very "accepting" person. :) I understand getting angry. It sure sounds like you're having a stressful time! I'd say I'll be praying for you... and I will... but I don't know if you much care. Regardless, I understand and wish you a happy marriage. For the record... I'd be disappointed in your position as well. I think he should have mentioned it, knowing your beliefs, long before now. Regardless, I hope the ceremony is great. I have noticed that you were treating it as more of a discussion. You did lead me to believe otherwise. (*cough* the title... *cough*) I'd be happy to discuss this with you, but in the future I'd recommend sticking to the forums or PMs for such purposes. I am a hardcore and competitive debater, so it's hard for me not to... well... debate, in a debate. However, I will discuss this with you. (I don't know what the difference will be really. Hopefully we'll still be using reason and logic!) I know what you mean by the "supernatural events" thing... but... I must ask... why doubt? If we have no way to explain these things rationally, aside from supernatural events, then why not believe in that which is in front of us? It's scientific theory, right? We can assume it's true until it's proven false. I don't know. Maybe it's cause I've seen some incredible stuff in my, albeit short, lifetime, but I have no problem believing in miracles. 1. I think you don't understand something critical here. We are not "predestined" in the sense you are thinking of. God made us with free will. If we're going to ask why God made Hell and beings that could be put in such a place, let's look at it biblically. (this means we must assume that all this is true, so we can examine the cause) God made Adam and Eve, according to the Bible. Adam and Eve were His greatest creation. They were made in His image, and He spent time with them each day. From the beginning, He gave Adam and Eve a very special thing. Free will. He loved Adam and Eve dearly, but didn't want to force them to love Him. After all, then it wouldn't be love, right? It would be slavery. They would be automatons. So He creates the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the tree of Life. He commands them not to eat from these trees. Since they do NOT have a sinful nature, they have no problem obeying. After all, they love God with all their hearts, and desire His relationship more than anything. Cue Lucifer, the fallen arch-angel, whose only goal is to destroy that which God loves most, us. He tempts Eve to take the forbidden fruit of Knowledge and eat it. Then she tempts Adam to do the same. Thus, they have both been introduced to temptation, AND they now know the difference between all things good and evil. This means that they will be naturally tempted to do all things which they shouldn't. Satan was banished to Hell, and has been since he rebelled against God. Hell is a place where God is not. It's a place of torment and suffering. Satan's SOLE goal (since he knows where he's headed) is to deceive as many as he can into joining him. God wishes for every last person to join Him in heaven. However, He has given us free will. We must choose. I understand that you're incredibly frustrated with the idea that God could allow for such horrible things to happen. Many are. However, we live in a world that is being torn by our own actions. We must take responsibility for what goes on. God allows things to happen, and we won't know why. I don't know why. It hurts me to think about all the suffering going on. But if God stepped in and fixed everything, we'd be automatons. Wouldn't we? If he reset us back to Adam and Eve's state, we'd just end up making the same mistakes. God is omniscient, He KNOWS our hearts. We must trust in that if we're to believe in Him. We trust in the fact that what He does is just and pure. If the God of the Bible is true, then we know He will always act righteously. The Bible tells us this. If you're going to assume for a second that God is running things, then you also have to accept everything that there is to believe about Him. I don't wish for anyone to go to Hell, and I hope no one does. But in the end, it's not my choice, or even God's (only because He has relinquished control of it), but its yours. You choose where you end up. Hell isn't meant to be productive. Hell is the end of the line. It's like when a murderer is executed. We don't execute him to teach him a lesson. We execute him because he wouldn't change his ways. Again, if we are to accept that God sends people to Hell, it would only make sense for it to be a wholly just and omniscient God, correct? That way, he would know EVERYTHING there is to know about us, and He would act correctly, accordingly. 2. Ah... but didn't you say earlier that, even if you were never introduced to religion whatsoever, you'd know that kicking a pregnant woman int he stomach was immoral? This is caused by a basic moral drive in all of us. We know what is right and wrong. As soon as we realize the effect of death, we know it is unnatural. God didn't design us to die. We have to desensitize ourselves to it before we can cope. I agree that different cultures may TWIST morality. But I think that true morality has a source. The very idea of morality must have a source. Your mouse and electric pellet argument was intriguing. However, if one human finally appeared (somehow sentient and with a drive for self-destructive, immoral activities) from the evolutionary process, how would he survive? Natural selection dictates he would not. Other creatures, not being sentient life forms, wouldn't understand the concept of learning from mistakes. Even if they did, it would be billions more years before another human-like creature evolved. And by then, there would be no recollection of the previous version's error. In the end, it's more probable for God to have imprinted a moral code into us. I have already attempted to explain how God is perfect and created us, then we corrupted ourselves. 3. Sir, I won't pretend that you aren't sure of your beliefs. Every ideology has someone is sure of their beliefs. What separates you and me is that I've FOUND this "answer" you're looking for. It's been sitting in front of humanity since the dawn of time. Your "too simple" answer leaves too many things to speculation or questions. The very fact that your beliefs are adaptable means that they're not beliefs at all. You can't have faith in something that can change. By definition, faith means relying on something you are sure of. It must be constant. The answer to an outlook on life was thought up a long time ago by a man named Blaise Pascal. He made a simple statement. "I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, then to live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is." Wouldn't you? I do not believe out of fear. I believe because there has to be a reason that we're here. If not, well... then I'll be worm food. Whatever. But as you said, morality is self-preservation anyways. Essentially, there are no drawbacks to Christianity, only advantages. You have a God that loves you, and everyone, and only wishes for them to find Him. You get to share this hope with the rest of the world. You realize that this world only has one decision which will ever affect you. Will I accept Christ as my savior? The rest... simply doesn't matter. And heck. If I'm wrong. So what? Nothing happens. I get the same fate as you. Right? So as I wrap up this "round" in our discussion, I'd encourage you to consider why you'd rather believe in your speculation, then in the explanation that has provided people hope and joy for millennia. I look forward to your response, as always.