LDS' Doctrine on the Father and the Holy Spirit Are Christian Doctrines

============== INTRODUCTION ============== Again, I thank Strikeeagle84015 for accepting this challenge and it is my great desire that in this debate there is an understanding of the orthodox doctrines of the Christian Faith. First, I would like for our readers to take notice of pro's admission of doctrines that are not canonized. That is to say, it is not sanctioned or approved authoritatively [1] in the LDS Church, but that it is a common belief. In other words, he is saying that it is simply an opinion or conviction. [2] Second, he is neglecting the principles of interpreting the Bible by ignoring passages where it obviously should be interpreted as figuratively and not literally. Third, although reason (I shall call it for understanding sake: sense knowledge) has its proper usage, it alone can not give us the answers regarding the nature of God since it has its limits. Thus the need for revelation (2 Tim 3:16). ================ Authoritative or Opinion ================ Most of the major doctrines of the LDS Church are being taught when there is no evidence in the Book of Mormon. Among them, the nature of God. That is to say, in my opponent's own words, "God has a perfect and edified body, similar if not the same to the type of body Christ had (and has) after his resurrection." By pro's own admission, this is not authoritative, but simply an opinion. I would like for our readers to carefully read what the Book of Mormon has to say regarding the nature of God: A. The Book of Mormon: 1. Authoritative: The Lamanites (Native Americans) refers to God as "the Great Spirit" Alma 22:9 And the king said: Is God that Great Spirit that brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem? Alma 22:10 And Aaron said unto him: Yea, he is that Great Spirit, and he created all things both in heaven and in earth. Believest thou this? [3] 2. Opinion: "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's..." (D&C 130:22). [4] 3. Opinion: "The Holy Ghost is a male personage, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, (Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, p. 118; Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 179). [5] Now this what the Bible has to say concerning the nature of God: B. The Bible 1. Authoritative: God is a Spirit Being a. The Teachings of Christ: Luke 24:39; John 4:24 Jesus made a theological profound statement when He said, "God is spirit." It is important for our readers to understand that in this statement it deals directly with the nature of God because the "a," the indefinite article which is never found in the Greek, is deleted. Thus, in His very essence God is spirit. [6] We can also see in Jesus' other statement, "a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have." From this it is apparent that spirit stands in contrast to that which is material or corporeal. Once again, God, being spirit, is not composed of material parts. ================= Figuring Out The Figurative ================= I have mentioned how my opponent has neglected the principles of interpreting the Bible by ignoring passages where it obviously should be interpreted as figuratively and not literally. Understanding hermeneutics is important in order to apply its principles if we are to arrive at a proper interpretation of the text. Hermeneutics is defines as, "Hermeneutics (English pronunciation: /hɜrməˈnjuːtɨks/) is the study of interpretation theory, and can be either the art of interpretation, or the theory and practice of interpretation. Traditional hermeneutics — which includes Biblical hermeneutics — refers to the study of the interpretation of written texts, especially texts in the areas of literature, religion and law." [7] Howard Hendricks, professor of hermeneutics at Dallas Theological Seminary, gave ten principles when to interpret a passage of the Bible in a figurative sense: 1. Use the figurative sense unless there is some good reason not to. 2. Use the figurative sense when the passage tells you to do so. 3. Use the figurative sense if a literal meaning is impossible or absurd. 4. Use the figurative sense if a literal meaning would involve something immoral. 5. Use the figurative sense if the expression is an obvious figure of speech. 6. Use the figurative sense if a literal interpretation goes contrary to the context and scope of the passage. 7. Use the figurative sense if a literal interpretation goes contrary to the general character and style of the book. 8. Use the figurative sense if a literal interpretation goes contrary to the plan and purpose of the author. 9. Use the figurative sense if a literal interpretation involves a contradiction of other Scripture. 10. Use the figurative sense if a literal interpretation would involve a contradiction of doctrine. [8] ================== QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ================== Q: If God has no body then how can he create man in his image? This furthers the fact that God the Father does have a body as we are created in the image of him. A: No, it does not. As I have provided evidence from both the Book of Mormon and the Bible, God is a spirit being. Since God is a spirit, it must refer something other than the physical. The Bible declares that this image consists of righteousness, knowledge, holiness (Col. 3:10; Eph. 4:24). In other words, the image of God in man therefore consists in personal and moral likeness rather than the physical resemblance. Q: If God had no body than how could he have written with his finger upon the tablets of stone. Thus this further leads credence to the idea that God has a body. A: Again, I already have provided evidence that God is a spirit being. Than you are to apply the figurative sense of interpretation when it involves contradiction of doctrine. Q: Now this verse not only proves the that the Godhead are three separate beings, but it also causes the asking of the question. How can a being who does not posses a body have another being sit on his right hand. If God the Father has not a body then how could Christ have sat on his right hand? Therefore that supports the idea that God the Father has a body. A: The debate does not concern the doctrine of the Trinity, but if God consist of the physical or a spirit being. Again, this is where you need to apply the figurative sense. It still involves contradiction of doctrine Q: If God had no body than how could he have written with his finger upon the tablets of stone. Thus this further leads credence to the idea that God has a body. A: Figurative sense principle. Q: Now this verse again leads credence to the idea that God has a body has how can you speak face to face as a man speckle to his friend without a body? Thus God has a body. A: No it still does not for the previous reasons and evidence I have provided. The Bible clearly declares that God can not be seeing with material eyes (John 1:18). Moses was told that no man could look upon God's face and live (Ex. 33:20). Thus, this is where you are to apply the figurative sense because it is an obvious figure of speech and still involves contradiction of doctrine. Q: Now these several verses all attest to the idea and fact that God the Father has a body of flesh and that he occupies spaces, and takes up room, which means he has a body. A: You have not demonstrated evidence at all to show otherwise. What you have done is to completely neglect the usage of hermeneutic principles for proper interpretation. As well as answered every single one of your questions with the Bible (2 Tim 3:16). ===================== Sense and Revelation Knowledge ===================== For the sake of my opponent and our readers I define sense knowledge (reason) as "knowledge that comes from the five senses." Revelation knowledge that comes from God through the Bible. Pro made this statement, "Now rather than using scripture I will attempt to prove this point through reason." According to the Bible