New Testament Reveals: A Church Indefectible; or a Great Apostasy

Though we clearly disagree on several issues, Chris is genuinely kind and desires the good of others. Like myself, he wants others to come to the true faith but one of us is not in the true faith, hence the purpose of this debate. Does the New Testament teach that Christ instituted an indefectible Church that would last until the end of time or does it teach that this Church Christ established would die on the vine and need restoration? I will argue the Roman Catholic (RC) position that the New Testament teaches an indefectible church. Both RC and Latter-day Saints (LDS) debaters will be using the agreed upon source of the NT in the KJV Bible. [1] Both sides will share the burden of proof. Other rules will be posted in the comments section. Premise 1: Jesus made promises pertaining to his Church throughout His ministry consistently since he first promised to build his church, to being with his church, and how it will be led and guided without his visible presence that, if true, negate a NT narrative about a Great Apostasy and Restoration some 1800 years later. Matt. 16:18, “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. ” Jesus promised that he will build his Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. Where we could quibble over the meaning of Peter and his role in the church; that is not the topic for this debate. The promise about the Church’s longevity is loud and clear. Even Death will not overcome Christ’s Church. The word for hell in Hebrew is Sheol and in the Greek, Hades. This is the place in Jewish tradition where the dead are gathered in. The reference to the gate is that of power so by saying the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against His Church, Christ is promising that the power of death will not prevail. [2] In contrast, the LDS position is, “With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys, or the presiding priesthood authority, were taken from the earth. ”[3], This contradicts to the promise of Jesus as the LDS case is that Death literally prevailed against the Church Christ established for nearly 1800 years. Matt. 28:19-20, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. ” Here we have a promise of Jesus Christ to His Apostles that he is with them always, even to the end of the world. Christ promises to be with his church all days, to the end of time. Christ, especially in his glorified state would know that the Apostles would not be able to do such a task themselves without serious divine aid and others would need to take up their mantle as the Apostles would die long before the Gospel of Jesus Christ would make it to Japan, Australia, and countless other places. Christ’s promise is directed to the authorities in place that he would remain with His Church until the end of time. Let us suppose that my LDS opponent is correct and that the Great Apostasy did occur. Here, we have Jesus Christ in his glorified state with all power of heaven and earth given to him. He would have known the Great Apostasy would occur so, why commission the 11 if he knew that they couldn’t go about baptizing all nations and teaching all nations if they would die before doing so? Why not be frank about the Great Apostasy here and let his faithful know that they will be killed, all authority will be lost for bordering on two millennia, long before His church could reach all nations to baptize and teach them what Jesus taught? The Answer is simple, our Lord knows his Church needs him in order to be successful and this reassuring promise in the face of very brutal times would help encourage them and it still encourages us today as we can read this very promise in Sacred Scripture. John 14:16, “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever. ” Here, Jesus promises to pray to the Father to send the Comforter who will remain with his Church as a guiding force forever. Christ says that this is the means by which his church will not be left orphans but again, the LDS church would have us believe that we were left orphans for about 1800 years. Additionally, Jesus says in John 16:13-14, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. ” Jesus says this specifically in reference to things that he has yet to say to his Apostles because they cannot bear them yet and the Holy Spirit will guide the Church into all truth. We see examples of how the Holy Spirit moved the Church though debates like Paul at the Areopagus debating the Greeks, though sermons like Peter at the Sanhedrin in Acts 2: 14-42 where some 3,000 were converted and baptized that very day and also councils like that in Jerusalem where the matter of circumcision being necessary or unnecessary was debated upon and decided in Acts 15. We watch the Holy Spirit faithfully at work as the Church grows. Premise 2: The above are real promises and are not contingent upon the Church who receives the promises Promise: a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified. [4] Covenant: a usually formal, solemn, and binding agreement. [5] To prove this premise, all we need to do is examine the verses mentioned and the contexts within and around them and we find that these promises are not contingent on the actions of those receiving the promises. There are no agreements, so we can know that these are not covenants; however, they are solemn. Jesus says He will do specific things regarding His church and the authorities with no expectation of anything in return and like gifts, he gives them. Premise 3: Christ will not break his promises. This premise is based upon Hebrews 4:15, “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. ” And it goes like this. If Jesus is without sin, then he cannot lie. If he cannot lie, he cannot break a promise, nor can he make a promise that he cannot keep. To do this would be detrimental to his credibility as Teacher and Master but would also, like anyone who has ever broken a promise to someone personally, break trust. Matt 16:18 is a promise that death will not prevail against His Church. Breaking this promise would do damage to the credibility of Christ who said in Matt 7:24-25, “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on a rock. The rains fell, the floods came, and the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on a rock. ” If Jesus would first tell his disciples that all who would listen to him would be like a wise man who builds his house on a rock and no matter what happened to that house, it will not collapse because it was set solidly on that rock, then, Jesus decides that he will build his Church on a rock, Peter, and declare that the gates of hell will not prevail against it, only to have the gates of hell prevail against it would demonstrate that Jesus cannot practice what he preaches. So why listen to him and heed his words if he himself is not a wise man who cannot tell the difference between rock and sand? Matt 28:19-20: Again, Christ has all power in Heaven and Earth and promises to be with His Church till the end of time as they go on their mission to baptize all nations but if he breaks this promise then in vain does he commission his apostles. In light of Luke 15:28-30, “Which of you wishing to construct a tower does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if there is enough for its completion? Otherwise, after laying the foundation and finding himself unable to finish the work the onlookers should laugh at him and say, 'This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish’. ” Would Jesus not be the subject of laughter to first make this statement and then build a church that fails within 75 years of its commissioning? It absolutely would if true and it would go double for the LDS proposal with two failed churches. John 14:16-18 & 16:14 Jesus promises that his Church will receive the Holy Spirit who will guide them into all truth and that He will not leave his Church orphans but should he break this promise, abandon his Church body, and leave orphans when He is needed perpetually and without explanation for nearly 1800 years would be nothing short of malicious. To illustrate, imagine an adoption agent who promises an eight year old child that he or she will receive a guardian who will watch over them and teach them. The orphan is adopted but because of his or her disobedience, the guardian decides to leave the child and move to a different house far away. Who is at fault for the child’s abandonment? The child, the guardian, or the adoption agency? If you said the child, Social Services is not the right career path for you. If these promises were broken, it would make Jesus nothing more than a thoughtless Rabbi and a fool at best and at worst a sinner of the highest caliber for intentionally undermining his own Church with false hope. However, since Jesus is neither fool, nor capable of sin, none of these promises can be broken. Conclusion The N. T. testifies that Christ established a Church that will stand till the end of time under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and not to the Complete Apostasy of Christ's Church. Thank you. 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