## Witness Statement Of Neil Davies Neil Lindsay Davies Of

will say as follows:-
T am 52 years old and have been working as a producer/researcher in the teievbion and film industry sInce 1986-
am Director of my own television production company, Dai Films Limited.

I Joined the Parachute Regiment In 1965 and left it in 1969.

I sewed in Aden, other parts of the Persian Gulf' and Cyprus in the First BattalIon of the Regiment. I received a campaign medal In con nectlon with my service in Adori where I was part of the Mortar Platoon, i left the Regiment in 1969
with an Honourable Discharge by purchase. After I left the Army, I
remained a member of the Army Reserve until my 45th birthday In 1993.

2.
In 1988, I met John GoCdard, who ran a television production company
called Praxis Films Limited. I began carrying out some work fer Praxis.
I
suggested to John that it would be a potentially good idea for a
documentary to focus on the British withdrawal from Men in the l960s,
I
felt that I would be well placed to be involved with the making of such a
programme because of my personal experiences and contacts. John and I
dlsctàsed the pmposecj programme and I began to carry out preliminary
background research In 1989.
4.
As part of this resea,th, I visited various soldiers with whom i had sewed
In Men. In the course of talking to serving and ex-soidlers, I learnt that a
number of the soldiers i had served with In Aden had subsequently served
in Northern Ireland with the Parachute Regiment and that they had been
on duty In Derry when the events known as Bloody Sunday took piace in
1972.
5.
t had previously been thinking about the posstbìlfty of making a programme
about the events of Bloody Sunday. There had been widespread criticism
of the Wldgery Report which had beati set up to look into what had taken
place, and I wanted to make a documentary programme focusing on the
recollections of soldiers and local people who had been involved, i spoke
to Alan Hayllng, who was then working for a television production
company. He told me that his partner, Horst had also expressed an interest
in working on such a programme.
In addition, i had discussed the
programme idea with John Goddard. John had told ins that Praxis wöutd
be Interested In trying to obtain a commission from Channel Four
Television to make the programme.
8.
While I was interviewing various soldiers about what had taken place in
Aden, it became clear to me that some of them had relevant first-hand
knowledge of events on Bloody Sunday and that they would probably be
prepared to talk to me about what had taken place on a thicUy
unathibutable basis.
I made it clear to anyone F spoke to about the
proposed programme that I had given assurances to soldiers that I would
not disclose their identities and did not Intend to.
7.
John Goddard began to try to Interest Channel 4 In the Bloody Sunday
programme idea.
Noni was also involved on the production side of the
proposed programme. At this time, J was the only researcher working on
the project.
I continued working on the Men project but also began to
focus more on Bloody Sunday when talking to soldiers and ax-soldiers. By
May 1989, although I was still researching the Aden programme as well,
John Goddard had asked me to focus more specifically on the Bloody
Sunday programme.
B.
T had known a number of people who had been active In the republican
movement I spoke to some of them about The proposed programme and
indicated my desire to be able to lntervlewlocaj residents In Derry and the
relatives of those injured and killed on Bloody Sunday.
A man named
Gerry Fltzpatjjck told me that he knew people who Would be able to put
me in touch with relevant local residents in Decry. I also spoke to Eamon Mccann, a journalist who had been one of the organisers of the civil rights peace demonstration which had been centra!

to events on Bloody Sunday. Eamon also told rna he would put me In touch with local people in Deny.

Over the Summer and early Autumn of 1989, I interviewed various soldiers anti ax-soldiers. Inctuding soldiers I had not servad with, for background information about what had taken piace on Bloody Sunday. My prime purpose at this pôiflt was to obtain background information and also to establish who might be willing to speak to me in connection with the proposed programme.

I visited Aldershot on a number of occasions and soclalised with members of the Parachute Regiment.

I did not specifically ask them about Bloody Sunday but just generally developed relationships with people. Frequently, I would get talking to groups of soldiers In local pubs whose IdentIties I did not know and the conversation might turn towards when they had served in Northern Ireland.

I was also still canying out research to progress the Ader' project at this point.

I knew a film maker cafled With Broomfield. I was aware that Nick wanted to make a drama programme about soldiers' lives. I tiied to provide him with general background information. As his project began to develop, I
met the wilter he was working with, Danny Boyle. Nick and Danny told me that they were thinking cf focusing on soldiers stationed In Men In the
1960's.

However, es they began to develop the project further with the BBC. it became clear that due to the potential costs of location filming, this idea would be to expensive to pursue. Therefore, they then considered focusing on soldiers in Northern Ireland and, In pedicular, on a central character who had been fraumatised by being present during an Incident like Bloody Sunday. Nick and Danny arranged for the BBC to engage me on a short-term contract to carry out research for the proposed drama, in essence, my job was to try to speak to soldiers who had served ¡n Northern Ireland.

I was also asked to try to arrange for us to watch the Parachute Regiment training. Because of my service in the Regiment I
was considered a good person to liaise with soldiers and The Regiment generally in this regard.

12.
1 had been keeping notes In various notebooks of things soldiers and exsoldiers had told me about Bloody Sunday, Northern Ireland and Men.
Some of them also suggested other individuals they thought I should
contact In November 1989, I began noting the meetings i was having with
soldiers in a standard office diary.
In the main, these simply detailed the
iridMduals I was meeting with and did not go into what was dIscussed.
However, i also continued to keep separate notas of my conversations with
soldiers and ex-soldiers. I also taped sorne of the interviews I carried out,
with the knowledge of The participants. Again, I made sure that I stressed
to ali of the soldiers and
-scldIem i Interviewed that I would not disclose
their identities to anyone, but that subject to this, I was proposing to make
use of what they to'd me. All of the soldiers and ex-soidlers made it clear
to rna that they were only prepared to talk ta me on the basis that 1
guaranteed that I did not disclose their identities to anyone, even members
of the production team
I was working with, without their express
permission.
in addition, there were a few lndMduals I spoke lo in social situations, such as in pubs, who were not aware of my reasons for doing so. Therefore i did not give them any guarantees of confidentiality. Sometimes, I did not even know their full names..

I also wrote up notes afterwards of such conversations.

1 returned to Alderstiot and arranged with the Parachute Regiment for Danny. Nick and rna to stay with the Regiment for several days to carry out relevant research I travelled to Aidershot for this purpose on 17th January
1990. While we were there, we took particular Interest in npI Company which was the Regiment's training company and which was then enteiing a critical two week phase in which many recruits failed to make the grade.

Both during that üip and other trips fo Aldershot, I had also spoken to a number of senioT officers about events in Aden and generally about Northern Ireland.

In addition, I had spoken to people who had sewed in the Argyil and Sutherland Highlanders in Men. I spoke to such individuals on an on the recoref basis and their Identities were also recorded in my
1989 diary, as well as those of soldiers and ex-soldiers to whom ¡ was talking about Bloody Sunday.

At this point, (was continuing to speak to people in connection with the proposed Praxis documentary about Bloody Sunday but this was taking second place to my work in connection with the proposed BBC drama.

I
continued working on the BBC drama project into January 1990. However, although a script was written, the BBC subsequently shelved the project.

In eaily 1990, John Goddard sent me a 'treatment" (a background document) he had prepared and which he was sending to Channel 4 in support of his efforts to secure funding fnxn them to research the proposed documentary about Bloody Sunday. By this tIme, I had talked In detail to several soldiers and ex-soldiers who had been involved in relevant events.

I had also Identified others whom I believed might be prepared to talk to me. I continued using my 1989 dIary to record the research I was canying out In 1990.

i had not used up the pages for the first haft of the year In
1989, so I wrote on these pages, alten altering the date on the page by one day so that the date in question fell on the contct day of the week for
1990k Gerry Fitzpatzick had told me that the Relatives CommIttee of those killed or Injured on ßloody Sunday were happy to arrange for me Interview their members. In contrast to the soldiers, I Was told by all of the local residents and relatives of those who had been Injured In Deny whom I Interviewed that they were happy to be interviewed on camera for the programme and for their names to be disclosed.

John Goddard and (had had a number of discussions about how best to protect soldiers1 identities while featuring what they told me in the docurnentaty, We decided In principie that we would not show soldiers'
faces on camera and that we would also consider using actors to appear in the programme reading out what soldiers had told us.

in addition to speaidng to various serving soldiers, I also travelled around the country interviewing ex-soldiers, usually at their homes, at work, or in total pubs.

My practice when Interviewing soldiers was generally Io make notes on the spot. However, on several occasions i taped people with an audio tape with their knowledge on the basis that the tapes were for research purposes and would not be disclosed to anyone. At this time, no filming had yet taken place of soldiers.

in 1990, Channel 4 gave Praxis a development commission ta research the project in greater depth. i continued on as a researcher, but later John engaged Tony Stark to carry out research as well. Although Tony and i discussed the project, we generally worked separately. He had his own contacts and reported directly to John as did i.

Generally speaking, I
simply told John In broad terms what particular soldiers had told me. i did not inform him of their identities and unless It became dear that he was likely to include what a soldier had said in the proposed programme, I did not provide him with the notas I had taken whue cìnylng out the interviews or audio-tapes. We were all conscious of the need to maintain confidentiality. Therefore, although I generally told John what I was doIng and what people had told me, i did not tell him the names of my sources, and in turn, i did not know the names of Tony's sources.

Frequently, i wrote up my notes and audio tapes of intervIews In transcript form and John would have seen these rather than my original notos.

I also assisted John with selecting the most relevant material obtained to date from soldiers and ax-soldiers. John would then report back on the progress of the prog ramme lo Channel 4. John's aim was to try to obtain a commissIon to actually make the programme from Channel 4. On June 27-
28 1990, 1 travelled to Derry and interviewed local residents using audio casseftes.

22-
I continued working on the project until about August 1900. Then, I went
to Bournemouth and enrolled on a post-graduate media studies course.
John and Tony continued workIng on the programme.
t am aware that
they interviewed additional soldiers and ex-soldiers. They also reinterviewed several individuals I had previously spoken to.
In addition, I
believe that John and Tony followed up a number of contacts i had
supplied thorn with and, as a result, subsequently interviewed a number of
soldiers I had not met. John and buy both tord rue that they had given the
sOldiers and ex-saldiers the same assurances of confidentiality which i
had. I understand that they filmed or tapad a number of the interviews.
2$.
i think that some cf my notes and audio material were left with Jahn.
However, i kept the majority. Jahn, Tony and I had agreed that it was best
if each of us only knew what was necessary In connection with making the
programme about each other's contacts and iriteMes rather than pooling
details of our sources.
24-
In December 1990. John sent me a further
reatment" he had prepared in
support of his efforts to secure a frill commission to complete the
programme from Channel 4.
John stated to Channel 4 that we had
interviewed over 60 Individuals in Derry.
I had interviewed a substantial
number of people when I had gone to Deny but naming like 60. i therefore
prestúne John was also referring to additional people he and/or Tony had
interviewed. John also slated in the Th-eatnienr that we had interviewed a
dozen soldiers from the Parachute Regiment including members of the
Mortar Platoon. I had interviewed some soldiers from the Mortar Platoon
but i think that John may also have been referring to soldiers who had
simply passed us on to other individuals who had relevant information,
rather than speaking to us themselves about what had taken piace on
Bloody Sunday.
Also, John may have been referring to soldiers he or
Tony had interviewed whom i was unaware of.
We feW that we had established that the Widgery Commission had not got to the bottom of what had taken place on Bloody Sunday, and that in particular we had obtained additional Information from soldiers and relatives which had not been supplied previously to the Commission or to the mecHe.

By early 1991, Praxis had been commissioned to complete the project.

John wanted me to return to work as Assistant Producer cf the programme on a full-time basis.

Therefore, I decided to leave my post-graduate course in Bournemouth. John wrote to me in March 1991 outlinIng the work which he wanted me to carly out John's intention was for us to interview various soldiers and local people from Deny.

In May 1991, I signed a contract with Praxis to carry out a further tO weeks work on the project between then and November 1991.

This was to include research, pre-productiori work and two weeks production and postproduction work. So far as I can recall, i spent most of this time contacting soldiers i had prevIously met and arranging for them to be interviewed by John and other members of the production team.

I again assured the soldiers I spoke to that i would not disclose their identities to anyone. John made It clear to me that he and Tony left bound by the same obligation of confidentiality and that he would stress this again when he met with the soldiers. Many of the soldiers we had spoken to had provided Information which was significantly different to the official version of what had taken place on Bloody Sunday. Generally, soldiers I Interviewed had three main concerns about lt becoming known publIcly that they had spoken to me In connection with the programme.

First, they were worried about the consequences from the Parachute Regiment Second, They were concernS that they would be breaking the Official Secrets Act and, finally, they were worded about how other soldiers might matt, since much of the information i was given pointed to some soldiers having acted in an WemeIy Inappropriate way on Bloody Sunday. Many of the soldiers I
spoke to told nie that they were extremely fearful of the repercussions if their Identifies became public.

The soldiers interviewed during this period were a mixture of people I had previously interviewed, and those John and Tony had met, together with a few new soldiers. i was not prescrit when John and Tony interviewed the majority of the soldiers and ex-soldiers although 1 believe that a number cf them were people i had already interviewed.

John and Tony generally recorded the interviews on audio tapes.

By the time the programme was broadcast. i had a large number of notes from interviews and informal conversafions I had had with soldiers and exsoldiers. i think that in ail i canied out substantial interviews with about a dozen soldIers and ax-soldiers. As i have Indicated above, i think that I
had given some of the audio tapes to John, but I had certainly kept others.

i think John retained the ones which were used In the programme.

i had also continued to keep details of my contacts and meetings In a 1991
diary.

After the programme was broadcast, i received a number cf anonous telephone calls threatening violence against me.

i concluded that they were likely to have been either from soldiers t had interviewed, or alternatively soldiers who were unhappy with what others had told me and Which had subsequently been included in parts of the programme. The film as broadcast was critical in a number of respects of the role of Parachute Regiment soldiers on the day In question. i had no meaningful editorial input into the way the programme was put together. My main functîorì had been to provide leads and to carry out preliminary Interviews with soldiers and Derry residents.

A number of soidiers and local residents had told me that they believed that Initially firing had come from unknown persons on the Deny City wails.

There had then been a great deal of confUsion, residents and soldiers alike told me that they had felt threatened by fire from the walis, and that events Then escalated. In contrast, the Widgery inquiry had not referred to any suggestion uf fire initially coming from the City walls. Several soldiers told me That they felt that paratroopers had bean 'set-up" by unknown people thing from the City walls with the effect that paratroopers felt inaccurately that an IRA sniper had opened fire ori them.

After the programme was broadcast I kept those of my hand-written notes, transcripts and audio-tapes whi ch had not been kept by John Goddard, as well as ruy 1989 and 1991 diales. i icept them at my flat In which also served as my business premIses. For security reasons, I did not keep all of this materiS together and it was located amongst a large amount of other written documentation and tapes which related ta other projects.

in March 1995, i set up a company named Rave Productions United with Steve Newman and John Caudino. The registered office and business premises of the company were also my fiat in
. In July 1996, while I was on holiday in Greece, without warning Stave Newman and John Caudino removed a large amount of documentation and tapes from the fiat.

They informed me that they had placed this material in secure storaga Given that when I returned from Greece virtually all of the documentation and tapes relating to my media work Which had been at the flat had been taken, I believe that this material included my Bloody Sunday notos, audio tapes and my 1991 diary.

Subsequently, I instnicted solicitors to try to obtain the return of this material and they commenced legal proceedings. i believed that the main item of value Which had been taken was footage of the pop group which later became known as The Spice Girls. Steve Newman and John Caudino denIed In correspondence that they had taken this footage.

They subsequently also denied this In affidavits. However, in October 1997, my solicitor arranged to inspect documentation which had been referred to in affidavits by Steve Newman and John Caudino at the offices of their then solicitors.

I accompanied my solicitor for this purpose.

Amongst the documentation, i located footage of the Spice Girls Which Steve Newman
!J9 b 10
and John Gaudino had stated that they had not removed from my flat. My solicitor also located sorne of my personal DHSS and tax documentation, Which they had also denied removing. He showed the documentation to me. lt was agreed that my solicitor could remove the footage of the Spice Girls from Steve Newman's and John Gaudino's solicitors' offices and that lt would be kept at the offices of his finn. However, Steve Newman's and John Gaudlno's solicitors did not consent to the removal of my DHSS/tax documentation.

Steve Newman and John Gaudino claimed in the proceedings that they had been in partnership with me during the period 1901 - 1995, operating under the name Rave Productions. They claimed that the documentation and material they had removed from my flat consisted uf either partnership property or company property. They subsequently continued to deny that they had removed any of my LDHSS/tax documentation from my flat, even though both I and my solicitor had seen auth documents at the offices of their former solicitors. Since October 1997, despIte a number of requests, Steve Newman and John Gaudino have declined to provide me with access to the totality of the documentation which they removed from my flat. I have only been allowed access to the limited documentation which they disclosed In connection with the proceedings. The solicitors acting for Steve Newman at that time acknowledged that this was only a part of (he total documentation which was held at his finn's offices.

I ant, aware that solicitors acting on behalf of Channel 4 TV have also unsuccessfully requested Steve Newman's and John daudino's solicitors to aflow them and me access to the totality of documentation remaved in order for me to see whether I can locate any of my material relating to the Bloody Sunday programme. To date, however, Steve Newman and John Caudino have refused to do so. Even if I was now allowed to Inspect the documentation, t am concerned that particularly given their Inaccurate statements about the Spice Girl's footage and my [*188/tax documentation, there may be documentation Which they have not provided to their solicitors. If they have located any Bloody Sunday documentation amongst this, i believe they might remove lt.

37. The trial of my proceedings against Steve Newman and John Guadino
took placa eaiiler this year.
Mr Justice Pumfrey gave judgment in my
favour ori 7 July and concluded that i had not been in partnership with
Steve Newman and John Guadino. They were ordered to deliver up the
property which formed the subject matter of the action.
Hvever, their
solicitors have retained other property removed from my flat in 1996.
Despite numerous requests, Steve Newman and John Guadino and their
solicitors have declined to allow rna access, accompanied by my solicitor,
to inspect the documentation held at the solicitors offices.
I am not clear
whether there Is additional documentation which is still retained elsewhere,
I still have possession of ruy 1989 diary.

I also have copies of variOus production documents and other material given to me by John Goddard at the time. i have provided Channel 4 wIth a copy of my dIary, reducted to remove any references which might identify my sourves, and also copies of all of these documents. I do not have possessions of any of my notes or audio tapes of interviews with soldiers.

I have examined 3 fIles of transcripts of IntervIews canled out during the making of the Bloody Sunday programme which the Bloody Sunday Inquiry have sent to my solicitor.

I understand that these transcripts were provided by John Goddard to the Bloody Sunday Inquiry. The second and third files consist of transcripts of inteMews carried out while the programme was being made with soldiers or ax-soldiers.

¡ have recently read these transcripts and would advise as follows;-

## File 2

1.
I have no recollection of carrying out this Interview. lt is possible
that I Introduced this soldier to either John Goddard or Tony Stark.
2-
This Is the transcript of an interview i carried out at the individual's
home on audio tape.
I did not carry out this interview but may have introduced the soldier to Tony Stark.

1 cariled out this interview late at night at the person's home.

I
believe it is likely that the person would also have been interviewed subsequently by Tony Start i did not carry out this Interview.

6-
I did not carry out this Interview.
i cannot recall whether i did this Interview or not.

¡ did not carry out this inteMew.

i cannot recall whether I carried out this interview.

40.
I interviewed this soldier In a pub. The transcript consists of notes
I wrote up after talking to the soldier.
i interviewed this soldier in a room at a pub.

I canied outthIs interview although I cannot recall where.

I Interviewed this soldier but i cannot recall the location.

I did not carry out this interview.

This transcript is based on notes I took of conversations with the persan irr question. I do not recati where or when we met.

I did not carry out this Interview.

## Flit 3

I did not carry out any of the 4 intervIews In question.

40.
I have also recently watched a video of the Bloody Sunday documentary.
The video was time-coded. In the programme we used actors' voice in
place of those of the soldters and ex-soldiers we had interviewed,
t have
noted several instances in the programme wt'iere the words of the soldiers
we interviewed were utilised:-

00-07-14-22
This was ari interview with Tony Stark
00-11-55-00
SS
00-28-37-09
00-30-34-00
I think this may have been an interview which I
cerned out
Interview with Tony Stark
00-44-53-00
00-42-12-12
I think this may have been an Interview
i
carried out.

7.
00-42-42-11
intervIew with Tony Stark
So tr as I cari recall. I was present at most of the interviews t have referred to which were cartied out by Tony Stark, but probably riot all of them. I think it may also be the case the Tony Starke who had the wiiting credit for the documentary, had written composite interviews taken from several interviews which either he, I or John Goddard carded out.

1 believe that the facts contained In this statement are true, Signed;
Name:
Dated:

## Witness Statement Of Neil Davies

NEIL LINDSAY DAVIES care of will say as follows:-
I am 54 years old and have been working as a producer/researcher in the television and film industry since 1986. I am Director of my own television production company, Dai Films Limited.

I joined the Parachute Regiment in 1965 and left it in 1969. I served in Aden, other parts of the Persian Gulf and Cyprus in the First Battalion of the Regiment. I received a campaign medal in connection with my service in Aden where I was part of the Mortar Platoon.

I left the Regiment in 1969 with an Honourable Discharge by purchase. After I left the Army, I remained a member of the Army Reserve until my 45th birthday in 1993.

In 1988, I met John Goddard, who ran a television production company called Praxis Films Limited.

I began carrying out some work for Praxis.

I suggested to John that it would be a potentially good idea for a documentary to focus on the British withdrawal from Aden in the
1960's.

I felt that I would be well placed to be involved with the making of such a programme because of my personal experiences and contacts.

John and I discussed the proposed programme and I began to carry out preliminary background research in 1989.

As part of this research, I visited various soldiers with whom I had served in Aden. In the course of talking to serving and ex-soldiers, I learnt that a number of the soldiers I had served with in Aden had subsequently served in Northern Ireland with the Parachute Regiment and that they had been on duty in Derry when the events known as Bloody Sunday took place in 1972.

I had previously been thinking about the possibility of making a programme about the events of Bloody Sunday. There had been widespread criticism of the Widgery Report which had been set up to look into what had taken place, and I wanted to make a documentary programme focusing on the recollections of soldiers and local people who had been involved.

I spoke to Alan Hayling, who was then working for a television production company. He told me that his partner, Noni had also expressed an interest in working on such a programme. I do not recall Norii's surname. In addition, I had discussed the programme idea with John Goddard. John had told me that Praxis would be interested in trying to obtain a commission from Channel Four Television to make the programme.

While I was interviewing various soldiers about what had taken place in Aden, it became clear to me that some of them had relevant first-hand knowledge of events on Bloody Sunday and that they would probably be prepared to talk to me about what had taken place on a strictly unattributable basis. I made it clear to anyone I spoke to about the proposed programme that I
had given assurances to soldiers that I would not disclose their identities and did not intend to.

John Goddard began to try to interest Channel 4 in the Bloody Sunday programme idea. Noni was also involved on the production side of the proposed programme. At this time, I was the only researcher working on the project.

I continued working on the Aden project but also began to focus more on Bloody Sunday when talking to soldiers and ex-soldiers.

By May 1989, although I was still researching the Aden programme as well, John Goddard had asked me to focus more specifically on the Bloody Sunday programme.

I had known a number of people who had been active in the republican movement.

I spoke to some of them about the proposed programme and indicated my desire to be able to interview local residents in Derry and the relatives of those injured and killed on Bloody Sunday. A man named Gerry Fitzpatrick told me that he knew people who would be able to put me in touch with relevant local residents in Derry. I also spoke to Eamon McCann, a journalist who had been one of the organisers of the civil rights peace demonstration which had been central to events on Bloody Sunday. Eamon also told me he would put me in touch with local people in Derry. Gerry and Eamon were not at any time researchers for Praxis, they were just people I spoke to.

Over the Summer and early Autumn of 1989, I interviewed various soldiers and ex-soldiers, including soldiers I had not served with, for background information about what had taken place on Bloody Sunday. My prime purpose at this point was to obtain background information and also to establish who might be willing to speak to me in connection with the proposed programme.

I visited Aldershot on a number of occasions and socialised with members of the Parachute Regiment.

I did not specifically ask them about Bloody Sunday but just generally developed relationships with people.

Frequently, I would get talking to groups of soldiers in local pubs whose identities I did know and the conversation might turn towards when they had served in Northern Ireland. I was also still carrying out research to progress the Aden project at this point.

I knew a film maker called Nick Broomfield.

I was aware that Nick wanted to make a drama programme about soldiers' lives.

I tried to provide him with general background information. As his project began to develop, I met the writer he was working with, Danny Boyle.

Nick and Danny told me that they were thinking of focusing on soldiers stationed in Aden in the 1960's.

However, as they began to develop the project further with the BBC, it became clear that due to the potential costs of location filming, this idea would be to expensive to pursue. Therefore, they then considered focusing on soldiers in Northern Ireland and, in particular, on a central character who had been traumatised by being present during an incident like Bloody Sunday. Nick and Danny arranged for the BBC to engage me on a short-term contract to carry out research for the proposed drama. In essence, my job was to try to speak to soldiers who had served in Northern Ireland.

I was also asked to try to arrange for us to watch the Parachute Regiment training.

Because of my service in the Regiment, I was considered a good person to liaise with soldiers and the Regiment generally in this regard.

I had been keeping notes in various notebooks of things soldiers and ex-soldiers had told me about Bloody Sunday, Northern Ireland and Aden.

I no longer have possession of these notebooks. Some of them also suggested other individuals they thought I should contact.

In November 1989, I began noting the meetings I was having with soldiers in a standard office diary. This diary has been disclosed to the Inquiry. In the main, these simply detailed the individuals I was meeting with and did not go into what was discussed.

However, I also continued to keep separate notes of my conversations with soldiers and ex-soldiers. I also taped some of the interviews I carried out, with the knowledge of the participants. Again, I made sure that I stressed to all of the soldiers and ex-soldiers I interviewed that I would not disclose their identities to anyone, but that subject to this, I was proposing to make use of what they told me.

All of the soldiers and ex-soldiers made it clear to me that they were only prepared to talk to me on the basis that I guaranteed that I did not disclose their identities to anyone, even members of the production team I was working with, without their express permission.

In addition, there were a few individuals, some of whom were soldiers and some ex-soldiers, I
spoke to in social situations, such as in pubs, who were not aware of my reasons for doing so. Therefore I did not give them any guarantees of confidentiality. Most of the time, I did not even know their full names. I also wrote up notes afterwards of such conversations. I did not tape any of these conversations.

I returned to Aldershot and arranged with the Parachute Regiment for Danny, Nick and me to stay with the Regiment for several days to carry out relevant research. I travelled to Aldershot for this purpose on
17th January 1990. While we were there, we took particular interest in "P"
Company" which was the Regiment's training company and which was then entering a critical two week phase in which many recruits failed to make the grade. Both during that trip and other trips to Aldershot, I had also spoken to a number of senior officers about events in Aden and generally about Northern Ireland.

In addition, I had spoken to people who had served in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in Aden.

I spoke to such individuals on an "on the record"
basis and their identities were also recorded in my 1989 diary, as well as those of soldiers and ex-soldiers to whom I was talking about Bloody Sunday.

At this point, I was continuing to speak to people in connection with the proposed Praxis documentary about Bloody Sunday but this was taking second place to my work in connection with the proposed BBC drama.

I continued working on the BBC drama project into January
1990. However, although a script was written, the BBC subsequently shelved the project.

In early 1990, John Goddard sent me a "treatment" (a background document) he had prepared and which he was sending to Channel 4 in support of his efforts to secure funding from them to research the proposed documentary about Bloody Sunday. By this time, I had talked in detail to several soldiers and ex-soldiers who had been involved in relevant events. I had also identified others whom I believed might be prepared to talk to me.

I continued using my 1989 diary to record the research I was carrying out in 1990.

I had not used up the pages for the first half of the year in 1989, so I wrote on these pages, often altering the date on the page by one day so that the date in question fell on the correct day of the week for 1990. I was also still researching the proposed Aden programme idea and continued to speak to soldiers and ex-soldiers in that connection.

Gerry Fitzpatrick had told me that the Relatives Committee of those killed or injured on Bloody Sunday were happy to arrange for me interview their members. In contrast to the soldiers, I was told by all of the local residents and relatives of those who had been injured in Derry whom I
interviewed that they were happy to be interviewed on camera for the programme and for their names to be disclosed.

John Goddard and I had had a number of discussions about how best to protect soldiers'
identities while featuring what they told me in the documentary. We decided in principle that we would not show soldiers' faces on camera and that we would also consider using actors to appear in the programme reading out what soldiers had told us.

In addition to speaking to various serving soldiers, I also travelled around the country interviewing ex-soldiers, usually at their homes, at work, or in local pubs. I spoke to some of them about Aden as well. Some of the people I contacted told me they did not wish to discuss Bloody Sunday with me.

My practice when interviewing soldiers was generally to make notes on the spot. However, on several occasions I taped people with an audio tape with their knowledge on the basis that the tapes were for research purposes and that the tapes and the indentities of the soldiers would not be disclosed to anyone without their agreement. I told the soldiers I would just pass on to the programme makers notes and relevant extracts from transcripts of the tapes which I would write up from what they had told me. At this time, no filming had yet taken place of soldiers.

In 1990, Channel 4 gave Praxis a development commission to research the project in greater depth. I continued on as a researcher, but later John engaged Tony Cook to carry out research as well. Although Tony and I discussed the project, we generally worked separately. He had his own contacts and reported directly to John as did I.

Generally speaking, I simply told John in broad terms what particular soldiers had told me.

I did not inform him of their identities and unless it became clear that he was likely to include what a soldier had said in the proposed programme, I did not provide him with the notes I had taken while carrying out the interviews or audio-tapes. We were all conscious of the need to maintain confidentiality. Therefore, although I
generally told John what I was doing and what people had told me, I did not tell him the names of my sources, and in turn, I did not know the names of Tony's sources. Frequently, I wrote up my notes and audio tapes of interviews in transcript form and John would have seen these rather than my original notes.

I also assisted John with selecting the most relevant material obtained to date from soldiers and ex-soldiers. John would then report back on the progress of the programme to Channel 4.

John's aim was to try to obtain a commission to actually make the programme from Channel 4.

On June 27-28 1990, I travelled to Derry and interviewed local residents using audio cassettes.

I continued working on the project until about August 1990. Then, I went to Bournemouth and enrolled on a post-graduate media studies course. John and Tony continued working on the programme.

I am aware that they interviewed additional soldiers and ex-soldiers. They also reinterviewed several individuals I had previously spoken to.

In addition, I believe that John and Tony followed up a number of contacts I had supplied them with and, as a result, subsequently interviewed a number of soldiers I had not met. I did not provide John or Tony with the names of my contacts. Rather, I would either arrange for the contact to meet them at an agreed location or request the contact to telephone John or Tony directly. John and Tony both told me that they had given the soldiers and ex-soldiers the same assurances of confidentiality which I had.

I
understand that they filmed or taped a number of the interviews.

I think that some of my notes and audio material were left with John.

However, I kept the majority.

John, Tony and I had agreed that it was best if each of us only knew what was necessary in connection with making the programme about each other's contacts and interviews rather than pooling details of our sources.

In December 1990, John sent me a further "treatment" he had prepared in support of hisefforts to secure a full commission to complete the programme from Channel 4.

John stated to Channel 4 that we had interviewed over 60 individuals in Derry.

I had interviewed a substantial number of people when I had gone to Derry but nothing like 60. I therefore presume John was also referring to additional people he and/or Tony had interviewed.

John also stated in the
"treatment" that we had interviewed a dozen soldiers from the Parachute Regiment including members of the Mortar Platoon.

I had interviewed some soldiers from the Mortar Platoon but I
think that John may also have been referring to soldiers who had simply passed us on to other individuals who had relevant information, rather than speaking to us themselves about what had taken place on Bloody Sunday. Also, John may have been referring to soldiers he or Tony had interviewed whom I was unaware of.

We felt that we had established that the Widgery Commission had not got to the bottom of what had taken place on Bloody Sunday, and that in particular we had obtained additional information from soldiers and relatives which had not been supplied previously to the Commission or to the media.

By early 1991, Praxis had been commissioned to complete the project.

John wanted me to return to work as Assistant Producer of the programme on a full-time basis. Therefore, I decided to leave my post-graduate course in Bournemouth. John wrote to me in March 1991 outlining the work which he wanted me to carry out.

John's intention was for us to interview various soldiers and local people from Derry.

In May 1991, I signed a contract with Praxis to carry out a further 10 weeks work on the project between then and November 1991. This was to include research, pre-production work and two weeks production and post-production work. So far as I can recall, I spent most of this time contacting soldiers I had previously met and arranging for them to be interviewed by John and other members of the production team.

I again assured the soldiers I spoke to that I would not disclose their identities to anyone. John made it clear to me that he and Tony Stark (who was the Director of the programme) felt bound by the same obligation of confidentiality and that he would stress this again when he met with the soldiers. Many of the soldiers we had spoken to had provided information which was significantly different to the official version of what had taken place on Bloody Sunday. Generally, soldiers I interviewed had three main concerns about it becoming known publicly that they had spoken to me in connection with the programme. First, they were worried about the consequences from the Parachute Regiment. Second, they were concerned that they would be breaking the Official Secrets Act and, finally, they were worried about how other soldiers might react, since much of the information I was given pointed to some soldiers having acted in an extremely inappropriate way on Bloody Sunday.

Many of the soldiers I spoke to told me that they were extremely fearful of the repercussions if their identities became public.

The soldiers interviewed during this period were a mixture of people I had previously interviewed, and those John and Tony had met, together with a few new soldiers.

I was not present when John and Tony Stark interviewed the majority of the soldiers and ex-soldiers although I believe that a number of them were people I had already interviewed. John and Tony generally recorded the interviews on audio tapes.

By the time the programme was broadcast, I had a large number of notes from interviews and informal conversations I had had with soldiers and ex-soldiers.

I think that in all I carried out substantial interviews with about a dozen soldiers and ex-soldiers. As I have indicated above, I
think that I had given some of the audio tapes to John, but I had certainly kept others.

I think John retained the ones which were used in the programme.

I had also continued to keep details of my contacts and meetings in a 1991 diary. I no longer have this diary.

After the programme was broadcast, I received a number of anonymous telephone calls threatening violence against me.

I concluded that they were likely to have been either from soldiers I had interviewed, or alternatively soldiers who were unhappy with what others had told me and which had subsequently been included in parts of the programme.

The film as broadcast was critical in a number of respects of the role of Parachute Regiment soldiers on the day in question.

I had no meaningful editorial input into the way the programme was put together. My main function had been to provide leads and to carry out preliminary interviews with soldiers and Derry residents. I could understand why some soldiers might have been upset with the way the paratroopers had been portrayed in the programme.

I think that they may have felt that I had misled them, since I had always stressed to them that one of my aims was to try to get the soldiers' point of view across. Then, when they had seen the broadcast programme, they could well have been unhappy that it was critical of them. The soldiers may have therefore concluded that this was my fault and that I had let them down. For example, a number of soldiers and local residents had told me that they believed that initially firing had come from unknown persons on the Derry City walls. There had then been a great deal of confusion, residents and soldiers alike told me that they had felt threatened by fire from the walls, and that events then escalated.

In contrast, the Widgery Inquiry had not referred to any suggestion of fire initially coming from the City walls. Several soldiers told me that they felt that paratroopers had been "set-up" by unknown people firing from the City walls with the effect that paratroopers felt inaccurately that an IRA sniper had opened fire on them.

Originally, I understood that the programme would address this issue using the words of the soldiers I had interviewed. However, I was subsequently told that Tony Stark, who had written and directed the programme, had decided against this because he felt that there was not enough evidence to back this up.

When I received threats of violence after the programme was broadcast, I was frightened and angry.

I was angry because I felt that I always stayed true to what I had told the soldiers I had interviewed. I thought it very likely that the threats, which were made in anonymous phone calls, were from soldiers or ex-soldiers I had spoken to. Although I could understand why they had been upset by the programme, I felt I had not been responsible for this.

After the programme was broadcast, I kept those of my hand-written notes, transcripts and audio-tapes which had not been kept by John Goddard, as well as my 1989 and 1991 diaries.

I
kept them at my flat in London which also served as my business premises.

For security reasons, I did not keep all of this material together and it was located amongst a large amount of other written documentation and tapes which related to other projects.

In March 1995, I set up a company named Rave Productions Limited with Steve Newman and John Gaudino. The registered office and business premises of the company were also my flat in
.

In July 1996, while I was on holiday in Greece, without warning Steve Newman and John Gaudino removed a large amount of documentation and tapes from the flat. They informed me that they had placed this material in secure storage. Given that when I returned from Greece virtually all of the documentation and tapes relating to my media work which had been at the flat had been taken, I believe that this material included my Bloody Sunday notes, audio tapes and my 1991 diary.

Subsequently, I instructed solicitors to try to obtain the return of this material and they commenced legal proceedings. I believed that the main item of value which had been taken was footage of the pop group which later became known as The Spice Girls. Steve Newman and John Gaudino denied in correspondence that they had taken this footage. They subsequently also denied this in affidavits.

However, in October 1997, my solicitor arranged to inspect documentation which had been referred to in affidavits by Steve Newman and John Gaudino at the offices of their then solicitors.

I accompanied my solicitor for this purpose. Amongst the documentation, I located footage of the Spice Girls which Steve Newman and John Gaudino had stated that they had not removed from my flat. My solicitor also located some of my personal DHSS and tax documentation, which they had also denied removing.

He showed the documentation to me.

lt was agreed that my solicitor could remove the footage of the Spice Girls from Steve Newman's and John Gaudino's solicitors' offices and that it would be kept at the offices of his firm. However, Steve Newman's and John Gaudino's solicitors did not consent to the removal of my DHSS/tax documentation.

Steve Newman and John Gaudino claimed in the proceedings that they had been in partnership with me during the period 1991 - 1995, operating under the name Rave Productions. They claimed that the documentation and material they had removed from my flat consisted of either partnership property or company property. They subsequently continued to deny that they had removed any of my DHSS/tax documentation from my flat, even though both I and my solicitor had seen such documents at the offices of their former solicitors. Since October 1997, despite a number of requests, Steve Newman and John Gaudino have declined to provide me and my solicitor with access to the totality of the documentation which they removed from my flat. They have only allowed me access to the limited documentation which they disclosed in connection with the proceedings. Steve Newman's solicitors acknowledged that this was only a part of the total documentation which was held at his firm's offices.

Because of my desire to protect sources, I did not keep my Bloody Sunday material in one place and I believe at least some of it must have been amongst the material removed from my home in
1996 by Steve Newman and John Guadino.

The trial of my proceedings against Steve Newman and John Guadino took place in February/March 2000. Mr Justice Pumfrey gave judgment in my favour on 7 July 2000 and concluded that I had not been in partnership with Steve Newman or John Guadino. They were ordered to deliver up the property which formed the subject matter of the action. None of this related to Bloody Sunday. However, their solicitors retained other property removed from my home in 1996. Despite numerous requests, Steve Newman and John Guadino and their solicitors refused to allow me access accompanied by my solicitor, to inspect the remaining documentation held at the solicitors'
offices.

I am not clear whether there is additional documentation which is retained elsewhere.

I am aware that solicitors acting on behalf of Channel 4 TV unsuccessfully requested Steve Newman's and John Gaudino's solicitors to allow them and me access to the totality of documentation removed in order for me to see whether I could locate any of my material relating to the Bloody Sunday programme. Subsequently in 2002, my solicitor told me that the Inquiry had obtained documentation held by Steve Newman's and John Guadino's solicitors, and earlier this summer I went with my solicitor to the Inquiry's offices in London on three occasions to view this material. I could not find any documents amongst it relating to Bloody Sunday, although I did locate part of an editing deck which had formed part of the order for delivery up made nearly two years earlier.

However, it was clear to me that the documentation obtained by the Inquiry was far from the whole of that taken from my home in 1996 by Steve Newman and John Guadino. The documentation I inspected at the Inquiry's office did not include the DHSS/tax documentation I
have referred to above. I still have possession of my 1989 diary.

I also have copies of various production documents and other material given to me by John Goddard at the time.

I have provided Channel 4 with copies of all of these documents.

I do not have possessions of any of my notes or audio tapes of interviews with soldiers.

I have examined 3 files of transcripts of interviews carried out during the making of the Bloody Sunday programme which the Bloody Sunday Inquiry have sent to my solicitor, labelled "Bundle O" (Volumes 1-3), as well as an additional file of documents which the Inquiry told my solicitor had been provided to it by solicitors acting for Channel 4 (Volume 4).

I understand that the transcripts were provided by John Goddard to the Bloody Sunday Inquiry.

The second and third Volumes appear to consist of transcripts of interviews carried out while the programme was being made with soldiers or ex-soldiers. I have tried to identify whether I was the interviewer in each particular case, but there is usually nothing in the transcript to identify who the interviewer is and I have had to rely on my memory. I should point out, both in relation to the transcripts and generally regarding the progamme, that it is now 11-13 years since events took place and I have been involved with a large number of programmes since. Therefore, my recollection of the precise work I carried out, interviews I conducted, exactly what took place and who said what, is not clear.

As I have stated in paragraph 6 above, I gave assurances of confidentiality to all of the soldiers and ex-soldiers I interviewed and I am therefore not willing to disclose their identities. In any event, in a number of cases I do not now recall their identities, and in others I do not recall what particular soldiers told me. I would not know now how to make contact with any of these people now to ask if they would be willing to release me from my duty of confidentiality because I have not had dealings with any of them since 1991.

Whenever I used a tape recorder during an interview, it was always in the open and with permission. There were no circumstances where surreptitious recording took place. Where an interview was taped, I would not have taken notes at the same time. In the interviews that were not conducted by me, I do not recall, nor would I necessarily ever have known, who the soldier was. As I have stated above, we were not aware of what each other was doing. Sometimes we did interviews together, but in general there would be sole interviews or a mix between John Goddard, Tony Stark, Tony Cook and myself. During that period, as I have stated in paragraphs
10,11 and 12 I talked to soldiers in connection with three different projects and sometimes an interview would cover more than one project. After all the time that has passed, it is at times difficult for me to recollect what the subject matter of a particular interview was, and whether it even concerned the Bloody Sunday project.

I cannot recall where in time the particular interviews in Bundle O came. Some may be notes I would have written down after the interviews, especially where I met someone in a pub. Where this was the case, the accuracy of the note would rely on my memory of the conversation. If the interview had been taped, the transcript would have been done straight from the tape.

I have recently re-read the transcripts and would set out my comments. In each case, I refer to the page number as referenced in Bundle O to identify which transcript I am referring to. During the course of the interview, some names were put to me and unredacted documents shown to me and I understand that these are to be kept confidential between me and my solicitor and barrister.

## Volume I

I went to Northern Ireland and quite openly interviewed a number of people who had been on the march and a number of journalists. It seemed that every one wanted to talk at that stage. All of my interviews were on audio cassette. The production team later went over and interviewed the same people plus others.

I think I would have spoken to a lot of the people whose statements are in this volume but I am not sure I can say that these transcripts are from my notes. Some of the questions and answers seem familiar but that would not necessarily be surprising as you would expect people to give the same answers to the production team as they had originally given me. As all the documents in this Volume seem to be transcripts from film, I think it very unlikely they are taken from my audio taped interviews.

The film would have been cut up to make a master and the offcuts swept up and binned so a lot of this stuff may not exist any more.

Audio tapes may have been stored but I doubt it because I do not think Praxis had room. I do not know for sure but they may have reused audio tapes.

I list below some of the names I recall.

I spoke to the following:-
M Bradley B Cashinella I Cooker M Coyle P Coyle B Curran Bishop Daley - I did not interview him

## Volume 2

When I attended with my solicitor to be interviewed by two representatives of the Inquiry in London in October 2000, both I and my solicitor made it clear at the commencement of the interview that I was not prepared to answer any question which might tend to identify sources to whom I had an obligation of confidentiality. However, the Inquiry's representatives still proceeded to ask me such questions in relation to each document I was shown at the interview. On the first few occasions this took place, I or my solicitor reiterated that I was not prepared to answer such questions in order to protect the identities of sources to whom I owed an obligation of confidentiality. But, after this, I or my solicitor simply gave the response, "standard answer"
when asked such questions, in order to denote that I was not prepared to answer questions which might tend to identify sources I had an obligation of confidentiality towards.

I do not recall the identity of the person who is being interviewed. The Inquiry have advised me that the unredacted version of this interview begins:" Notes from Neil's interviei,V'. lt may therefore be that I carried out this interview, but I have no recollection of having done so.

I do not recall the identity of the person who is being interviewed, but even if I did I would not be willing to reveal their identity because I have a duty of confidentiality to the soldiers I spoke to or introduced to the programme. The original unredacted transcript states "met with
1NQ1413"
but, as I have said above, I cannot recall doing this interview. Two names were put to me SVLDIER.

or SaLrtg oo
) but I cannot assist. Even negative assistance could still identify a source. However, I do not believe that I have any records which would indicate who this person is.

I do not recall the precise identity of this interviewee, but in any case I would not be willing to reveal their identity because I have a duty of confidentiality to the soldiers I spoke to or introduced to the programme. I have no clear recollection of either carrying out this interview or being present at it. I have looked at an unredacted copy of the first page of this transcript which also has " ....1NQ1413" at the top. I was asked to comment on whether "...1NQ1413" was this interviewee but for reasons of confidentiality I cannot answer this question. I have been asked if this interviewee is ir
. I am not willing to answer that question because of my duty of confidentiality. I was asked if it is possible to indicate the statements at 018 and 019 would have been made by two different people.

I cannot answer that question because of confidentiality since it may assist in the identification of a source. In any event, as I have mentioned above, I do not recall this interview.

If I had carried out this interview, I would have told the person I interviewed that he would be recorded because that was my standard procedure when taping an interview.

Because I was working on 3 projects at this time, I cannot now say for sure how I would have described the purpose of this particular interview. But I would have made clear that any discussion about Bloody Sunday was for the purpose of a television documentary and I would have given an assurance of confidentiality. The tape recorder would not have been hidden.

I have no idea whether this script transcribes the entire interview but, in any interview I carried out, I can say that there would generally have been times during the interview when I turned the tape off.

I
would not have transcribed the tape myself.

lt would have been someone organised through Praxis who did it.

I did remember this interview, but may have introduced the soldier to Tony Stark. As I have indicated above, I would not know how to now contact any of the soldiers I interviewed not least because I have not had any contact with any of them since 1991. I do not recollect the name of this person.

I have seen a copy of the unredacted transcript but this did not assist me. The name i'i pi was put to me but I am not willing to answer that question because of my duty of confidentiality.

This transcript appears to start right in middle of sentence and therefore seems not to be complete. However, it is possible they it just reflects the way the interviewee spoke. lt is also possible that the tape recorder was switched on in the middle of a sentence. I believe I carried out this interview late at night at the person's home. I am not sure whether Tony Stark was present when I interviewed this soldier. I do not recall John Goddard being present.

I believe it is likely that the person would also have been interviewed subsequently by Tony Stark.

I cannot remember the soldier's name but I would not be willing to identify the person in any event because of my duty of confidentiality.

Every person I interviewed was told the purpose and given an assurance of confidentiality by me, and if it was to be recorded, it would have been open. To the best of my recollection, I think this is an accurate record of what I was told but I do not recall how it was recorded.

Although I do not recollect how this interview was recorded, I do know that there was no covert recording at all. I can definitely say I did not do any covert recording. In the period I was talking to soldiers I was always up front about the purpose of the interviews. But as I have explained in my statement, I was working on a number of programmes at that time so I cannot be certain exactly how I described the purpose of this particular interview, but I would have made clear that any discussion about Bloody Sunday was in connection with the television programme and I
would have given an assurance of confidentiality.

The name "SoLDIE
o " was put to me. I am not willing to comment on that because of my duty of confidentiality.

I do not believe I know the identity of the interviewee, but even if I did I would not be willing to comment on that because of my duty of confidentiality. I do not recall who the interviewer was but it would probably have been either Tony Stark, Tony Cook or John Goddard. The name SoLtpER o was put to me but I am not willing to comment on that because of my duty of confidentiality.

This transcript begins mid-sentence and so appears not to be complete. I have indicated above two possible explanations why this may be the case.

I cannot recall this interview and I do not believe I know who did ¡t. I do not believe I know the identity of the interviewee. The names SOLDIER I2. and SOLDIER OI. were put to me but I am not willing to comment on that because of my duty of confidentiality.

This transcript begins mid-sentence and therefore appears not to be complete.

I think I may have carried out this interview but I cannot recall when. The Inquiry have advised me that the unredacted text of the interview states:" Neil's first interview". I do not recall the precise identity of the interviewee. The name SLD 1ER I2 was put to me but I am not willing to comment on that because of my duty of confidentiality.

I do not recall carrying out this interview. Nor do I recall the identity of the soldier. The name INQ
lS1- was put to me but I am not willing to comment on that because of my duty of confidentiality.

I cannot recall doing this interview and I do not think that I did, nor can I remember who interviewed this person. I do not believe that I know the identity of this soldier, but even if I did I
would not be willing to give those details because of my duty of confidentiality. The name IN
was put to me but I am not willing to comment because of my duty of confidentiality.

I interviewed this soldier in a pub, but I do not recalt if anyone else was present. I am not willing to identify him because of my duty of confidentiality. This is not a transcript, but consists of notes I wrote up after talking to the soldier.

To the best of my recollection, I interviewed this soldier in a room at a pub although I cannot be certain if I carried out this interview.

I cannot recall if anyone else was present, although it is possible John Goddard may have been. I am not willing to identify this person because of my duty of confidentiality. This interview was not taped recorded as far as I can recall. I do not recall how I would have described the purpose of the interview, but it would have been about a broad number of things including Aden. However, I would have referred to the Praxis programme in the context of discussing Bloody Sunday and I would have given the soldier an assurance of confidentiality. This transcript probably came from notes which I made but I cannot remember whether I wrote up the notes at the time or after. In some situations I did write notes at the time of interview but if it was a pub situation, I probably wrote the notes later which would have been as accurate as I could remember from the conversation. The name SOLDIER. OI
was put to me but I am not willing to comment because of my duty of confidentiality. An extract from St'LDIER
9 's statement was put to me but I am not willing to make any comments on it because of my duty of confidentiality.

I carried out this interview, although I cannot recall where and I do not recall if there was anyone else present. I am not willing to identify the interviewee because of my duty of confidentiality.

From looking at this transcript, I am unable to say whether it was taped or whether I took notes. I
cannot say how I described the purpose of the interview because I cannot really recall when this interview was done. But, again, I would definitely have indicated it was in connection with the Praxis programme and given an assurance of confidentiality.

I may have carried out this interview. This transcript begins with what seems to be a question following an earlier reply and so does not appear to be complete and I do not recall if there was anyone else present. I do not recall the precise identity of this person and in any event I am not willing to identify the interviewee because of my duty of confidentiality. I do not recall whether the interview was taped, but this document seems to be a transcript which indicates it was probably taped.

I would not have typed it up. I would have referred to the Praxis programme and given an assurance of confidentiality.

I did not carry out this interview. I am quite sure about this because it is quite obvious to me from the transcript and in any event I do not recall doing it. I do not know who the interviewer was.

I
do not know who the interviewee is, but in any event I would not be willing to identify him because of my duty of confidentiality. The name i K
J 'i L'
was put to me but I am not willing to comment because of my duty of confidentiality.

To the best of my recollection, this transcript is based on notes I took of conversations with the person in question. But, in addition to the time which has elapsed, it should be appreciated that it is also difficult to be sure because a number of the transcripts cover similar ground.

I do not recall where or when we met, nor if anyone else was present. I do not know who the interviewee is but I would not be willing to identify him because of my duty of confidentiality. This transcript is not completely legible, but it seems to be the sort of notes I would have made.

I was shown a copy of the unredacted statement but it does not assist in reminding me of the circumstances of the interview. The name
'/N K
was put to me.

I am not willing to comment because of my duty of confidentiality.

I believe I would have referred to the Praxis programme and given an assurance of confidentiality.

I do not think this interview would have been taped, but I do not remember.

I did not carry out this interview and I have no knowledge about it or who the interviewer was.

I
do not know the identity of this soldier, but even if I did I would not be willing to identify him because of my duty of confidentiality.

## Volume 3

I do not think I carried out any of these interviews, and in any case they seem to be production material, so I was not working at Praxis by that stage. I think that the first time I had ever seen these transcripts was when the Bloody Sunday Inquiry sent them to my solicitor.

I looked through the transcripts but I do not know the identity of the interviewees and even if I did I would not be willing to reveal them because of my duty of confidentiality. The names of 034, 035, 037
and .iN K q5
were put to me. I do not know if they were the interviewees but even if I did I
would not be willing to comment because of my duty of confidentiality. I was asked if I could recall or knew anything about the interview at page 036. I have no recollection of this at all.

I do not recall ever meeting anyone from the SAS for the purpose of the programme about Bloody Sunday.

## Volume 4

I have divided the documents in this Volume into the 20 categories specified in the letter from D.J. Freeman contained at the front of the volume.

(1)and (2)
I had not seen these before the Inquiry sent them to my solicitors.

(3)
75.
I had not seen these before the documents were sent to my solicitors. I was not present when
these were done.
(4)
76.
I do not recall seeing these before they were sent to my solicitors by the Inquiry. I believe I had
earlier spoken to a couple of the people.
(5)
77.
I do not recall seeing these before the Inquiry sent them to my solicitors. I may have spoken to
Coyle earlier.
(6)
78.
I do not recall seeing these documents or being aware of the names of these individuals before
the Inquiry sent the documents to my solicitors.
(7)
79.
I do not recall previously seeing these documents or being aware of the names of these
individuals.
(8)
80.
I do not recall seeing this document before, but I think I had spoken earlier to this person.
(9)
81.
I do not recall seeing this document before, but I may have spoken to Nash earlier.
(10) and (11)
I do not recall seeing these documents before.

(12)
I do not recall seeing these documents before. I never interviewed Bernadette Devlin. I do not recall having seen the names of the other individuals before.

(13) -(18)

84.
I do not recall ever either interviewing, or being present for interviews with, any of these
individuals.
(19)
85.
I do not recall seeing this document before. I did not carry out any interviews in Belfast.
(20)
86.
Because these quotes appear to have been listed taken out of context from the broader original
interviews, I have no idea where the individual quotes come from. lt is possible that some may
come from interviews I carried out or was present at, but I cannot tell. I do not recall seeing this
document before. The date at the bottom of the document is December 1990. As
I have
indicated above, I ceased being involved with the making of the programme in November 1990.

## My 1989 Diary

87.
As I have indicated above, I began using this diary in November to record details of people I was
meeting or hoping to meet in connection with the Bloody Sunday programme, the Northern
Ireland drama project and the Aden project. In the vast majority of instances, the diary just
contains details of individuals and their contact details rather than noting information actually
given to me by people. These were generally recorded in notebooks or on tape and, as I have
explained above, they are no longer in my possession. In some instances, the diary gives names
of people I hoped to interview, but never actually did. In other cases, the diary gives the identities
of people I contacted purely to try and get their help to locate other people. They would not even
have necessarily known that I was trying to contact people to speak to them about Aden or
Bloody Sunday. There were also people whose names appear in the diary who I contacted about
Bloody Sunday but who told me they were not prepared to discuss it with me. In addition, there
are people I approached for general background information. The diary also contains many
names of people I was meeting socially or in connection with other projects, who had no
connection at all with the Bloody Sunday project.
88.
At the end of 1989,1 continued using the diary in connection with the three particular projects I
have specified above until July 1990. I carried on recording details of contacts in the section of
the diary from January-July, but marked each page to show the correct date in 1990 for the day
of the week in question rather than the date printed in the diary (le January 9th rather than January 10th)

89.
I now produce, as an Appendix to this statement, a copy of my redacted diary. The Inquiry has
asked me for my reasons for making these redactions. I confirm that the diary has been redacted
to the extent, and only to the extent, that I consider is necessary to protect the identities of my
confidential sources (as advised by my legal representatives), and that no redaction has been
made for any other reason.

## The Programme

90.
I have also recently watched a video of the Bloody Sunday documentary. The video was timecoded. In the programme we used actors' voice in place of those of the soldiers and ex-soldiers
we had interviewed.
I have noted several instances in the programme where the words of the
soldiers we interviewed were utilised:-

00-07-14-22
This was an interview with Tony Stark
00-11-55-00 00-28-37-09
00-30-34-00
I think this may have been an interview which I carried out
00-44-53-00
Interview with Tony Stark

00-42-12-12
I think this may have been an interview I carried out.
7.
00-42-42-11
Interview with Tony Stark
91.
So far as I can recall, I was present at most of the interviews I have referred to which were
carried out by Tony Stark, but probably not all of them. I think it may also be the case the Tony
Stark, who had the writing credit for the documentary, had written composite interviews taken
from several interviews which either he, I or John Goddard carried out.
92.
I believe that the facts contained in this statement are true.
Signed:
Undy
-W!thss $tanj

## S 1989 November &Tnday (N

Weak 48

## 'Sirr.1.........

M T W T P S SiM T-W I.E S SIM T W TE S tIN TWT F-s SIM 7W T F S SIM T
12314S8 7$ Sloni 1213 1415 flt7i1S1O20tfl2334I2527-3S21 30311
Dscntr M 1W T Urti1 T

## November 1989

Veterans Day (USA3
srl 12 n 1617

## 11 November 'T4.

Monday
13
*17-45 Wak 4$
O Futi Mdcn
'4zdz41 ¿i& Sa4t titi:
T.4Lt--rzt F*coN/
Wednesday
319-48 Week 4*

## Noyenìbet 1989 November ( Novembep" A9Çw3Iøn 19Á$

M19, 39

## Wednesday 333-22 Week As November 29

MIVJT FI SIM 7W Tp S SIM 1W 1F $ SIM TW TP $ $1M III t F $ SIM T
1 2 3 £ 51 5 7 8 9 IC lt S2l13 141516 171* f120 21 22232425261V 2*2*30

## T(9Ss9 December T 340-25 ) First Quarter S" 3G3 -6 2Aasm ?Utc A2.Ti #&Ftg +/Ú4/ 41K/I

Decembe, M TYM T F5 SjM TW t F S SiM TW T F S SiM TW T FS SIM TW T F S SIM T
2 314 5 6 7 8 910111 12 13 14 15 16 lilie 19 2Q21 222324125 26 27 28 29 30 311
-
M T W t t S SiM T W T F I SIM t W T F S SIM T W t F S SiM T W T F S SIM T

## .Iaqwaaoø 1989 December Mpnday 352-13' Week 51

Tuesday December MTWT F5 SM 1W T FE 5-M 1W T F S SM 1W T F S SM TW T F S SM T
1989
December Thursday
355-10 Week 51
PAYE week 38
Shortest Day December
- -
MTWT rs SrM TW IFS SM 1W t F S SM 1W t S S-M TW T F S SM t

1 2 3:4 5
                        6
                             7 8 91011 1114151617:1&19202122fl242526272829303j:
                                                                                                                                                         19' 62

-
iSt slier Chrlsunss rt Monday l-354 Webt New Vaata Day Pnfld.jK. Rep. of Ir.., USA, Caned a arid

Cash Account
May

## S. I

Cash Account
July
fi
Cash Account
Debit
tredit
Total
Total
September

## Anna Al Cash Summary 1989

tarin Lits & Coud London Ed1nbuØ. Now York Th,onto SydnniPeigrc W Md. Moto MS ?S$ ta In Grit Bib

## 1989 Year Planner 1989 ¼Ù Plañner S 'Itt

April
May
Jun.
is
1M
UT
2II
2 1
3M
3W
3 S
41
4T
5W
5F
5M
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6s
ST
-
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7t1
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85
8M
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10E
.
111
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31
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141$]
lES
161$]
15M
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161
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17M
17.w
ii S
18T
IST
19w
19F
201
205
21F
211$!
25T
25T
24M
24W
28W
26F
26M
271
275
VT
28F
28W
295
29M
291
n
301
30F
31w

## 1989 Year Planner

14 W
181$!
19 M
20 T
21 w
221
23F
245
-fl

## 1989 Year Planner Fn Ututty Used Telephone Numbers

Sritlsh Summer nm.: At time of going to press, the I-lame Office was unable to confirm th9S9 starting end finishing dates for British Summer Time, but expressed the view that 26 March and 29 October were the likeliest dates to be adopted. Accordingly all sunrise and sunset times have been expressed as 6Ml. When dates are confirmed add one hour to give these time, as liST, Scottish Bank Holiday. The term 'Bank Holiday' has a restricted meaning in Scotland, where il does not necessarily signify a naCional public holiday, For this reason, Scottish bank holidays are differentiated In this diary from public holidays In the rest of the United Kingdom, with the exception of Christina. Day and New Years Day. which are generally accepted as national holidays in Scotland.

Week Numbering The system of week numbering followed in this diary Is that recommended by the International Organization for Standardlaation liSO), according to which Week lis the first week containing four or more days of the new year. Monday is taken as the first day of the week.

The Astronomical Information in this diary is reproduced, with permission, from data supplied by the Science Research Council. Sunrise and Sunset times are based on London. The information given is conan at the time of going te press, The calendar notes refer to Great Britain.

E & 0E
Sunday
1-364 Week 52
Ist after Chriatmas New Year s D.y

## 1989 January 1, Monday

Friday
1989
$ß4day
1435t Wk2
1620
2nd afIn Epiphany

## /6*January Ç C- January

25-437 Week4
CT 7.45. as 16.43
1989
(t-'
77 January
1989
Thursday n-an WakS
Canclemes tscothh Quartet Day)
February /
Shrovi Tuasd.y
'fltI,
'A TW T P S SIM f W 5'FiSStM 1W T F S SIM 1W T F S SiM '1W T P $ SIM t
4234 5jm.7 S2flßfl12 1131415 let? 1$ 1912021flfl24fla1V2$fl3031

## I989 February 1989 Surday ¿2- Waft Ian Moe

St Valentine
'1989
(?Februanr Séturday
49-ttt Walt?

, im. a liz n

# £0.S1C. Wnk 7 2Nd In Tait

## 1989 February /Cf20R

Monday
51-3i4 Week S
WnhinçtoW. Birthday (USA)
O Eon Mton

## S S

:
March M T WY P S S'M T W T r S S;M T W T P S ZjM T W T F S SiM T W T P S 53M T
Passion Sunds

1989
            f/March
                 *
Sunday

# 1989 ¡(J- March'

Thirsdav
75?

Week 1?

## ¡Q March

flst---w.ù 12
Verrat Equinox

## Oio-2&T-'-Í- 1989 March

y F;iday

## 4"April 1989'\ Smai3Lfli

Week lb PAVE week 2
- Saturday ios-zo Wen 15
sr LOS... ISST
May M TWT ES SIM TW t ES SIM tVJ T F S SIM TW TES 51M TW T FS SIM T
1 2 34 56 718 91011 121314I15161718192021I222324252627281293031

## 2Iap&Ii Uday

,is-asô Week 17
- Anac Day (Austaflel i Friday Ti 8-247
Weel 17
- S Last Quarter

## E E E E

West 15

## 131-234 Week Is Pave Wnk S

W%WT Ft SiM 1W T F S SIM 1W T F S SIM 1W 7F S SIM 7W 1 PS SIM T

## ¿L May

j47-218 Week 21
it 3.54, ii 20.02
July M 1W 1 F8 SuM T W T F S
¶
21 3 4 5 8 1
8
Saturday
158-197
week 24
sr 3.43, as 2OE20

## 1989 1? June

Wednesday ia-its Week fl W..kn

## W-Jm1T July

Thursday lei-175 Week ti rAU week 14
* 'TW ì vs SIM TI! T P $ SIM TI! T P S SIM TW T P 5 SIM T W T PS SIM T
1 2134.5S7 $Bj1Cflnl214jb1611715g2ø21flflI242$2I772Sfl3ß131
Friday
1SS-4fl Week27
August M TW T PS SIM 1W T F S StM 1W T F S S;M 1W T F S SJM TW T F S S
1 2 3 4 5 617 8 910111213114151617181920121 222324252627i28293031
190-175 W.fl 27
7th stier Trinity Ft SIM T%tt Ft SiM flY T'PS SIM tn-rc siju i-w r
1 23 is 117* 1oI1Iz13I14-ss7st71e1so121;nnn2JaenIaa3os1 P S
July M'TWT ES 81M YW tVS SIM TW T F SlIM TWT PS SIM Tif TE S SIM t tz1345S7Saltø1it2331415ISI171lw2u2tfla,I2425flfl282S3oI31
w,kfl PAYEwnk1S
Tueçsday In-166 We.kfl Thursday
301-154 Week 29
PAYE wnk 16

## 0% I V

un
:w T T S SIM T W T F $ SIM TYS T F S SIM T W T F S $1M TW T F S SIM T
i 23 45 617 t S1O.111213(14151617151924J21fln24252527125n3031

i
I
j
I
I
j
j
j
I
I
I
t

1989
August

Thursday
215-150
     'Week 31
          PAYE week II
                            3

## T. J. T S. S. S. S.

# E 1989 - Tuèsday 269-16 Wak S September 26

## 1989 September

Thursday VI-44 Wn& 39 PAYE wale 2G

## October Bloody Sunday Inquiry

I, Neil Davies. C/O 50 Broadwick. Street London WI make this statjment further to my statement forwarded to the Inquiry by e-mail ort 5th September 2002:

I.
in a letter dated II September the Inquhy Informed me, through my solicitor,
that a firm of solicitors, Bowling & Co had discovered In their archives one
further box of material that had not been provided to the Inquiry pursuant to
its subpoena on that firm,
in the saite letter, I was iisked to attend the
Inquiry's offices to view the material io see if it contained anything of
relevance to the Inquiry. I did so on Thursday 26 September, accompanIed
by my solicitor.
2.
The box relerred to above contained the following:
2 files of documents;
It computer discs; and
o.
4 vIdeo tapes.
3,
I viewed all the materia) in 2 above.
lt contains nothing that has any
connection with the events of Bloody Sunday.
4.
As i have said In my earlier statement, I do not believe that the material I
have viewed at the Inquiry Office represents the totality cf material taken from
myflatln 1996.
Signed: ...1¼/441t Dateth tf - Os
1.

q
-
-
BBCVIEWINGLIST
-
J
LIB
DAIt
r
LIB NO.
DUR
COL.
SUB$tCF
DEFI!Lß
I
>.
-.
BBC
30/1/72
Dm0/72/OS
422FF
U'17
COL?
BLOODY
SUNDAY
ORIGINALFOOTAGEOF
DEMO/RIOT
-r
BBC
1/2/72
D 032/72/18
35FF
56
COL?
FUNERALS
MEMORIAL PROCESSION
BBC
2/2/72
033
07
109FF
COL?
FUNERALS
THE 13 ARE BURIED
C
.
.
»4t
BBC
1(2172
D
/ fJ/
46FF
I'Ii
COL t
DEMOS
OXFORD
1/2/72
J) 032/72/22
136Fr
3'38
B k W
DEMOS
DUBLIN
BBC
2/2/fl
D 033/72/06
68FF
l'49
COL?
DEMOS
BURNING OF BRITISH
EMBASSY Di DUBi
BBC
5/2/72
D)/fl/(Jt445
COL?
DEMOS
BIRMINGHAM
DEMOS
COL?
BBC
5/2/72
D 36/72/7
2'2r
.
.,
.-
.
VIOLENT ONE iN LONDON
\:.M
..
.*.rjD+r.
1
-
'
'.
V'.,-,
BBC
3111m
D 31/72/4
Vi7
COL
COMMENT
BLOODY SUNDAY-
MILITARY PRESSER
BBC
31/i/72
D 31/72/i
i'26
COL
COKQvIENF
DEVI,IN PUNCH-UP
BBC
2/2/72
D 33172/5
1 '4E
COL
COMMENT
iRISH FOREIGN MIN
DçrERvmw
BBC
1/2/72
D 32172/1
40
COL
COMMENT
IRISH AMSASSADOR
FER VIEW
BBC
14/2/72
D 045/72/Il
2'24"
COL
WTDOERY
TRIBUNAL
W1DGERY IMAGES a
TRIBUNAL. IMAGES
BBC
20/2(72
D 51/72/5
ir
COL
WIDGERY
TRIBUNAL.
WIDGERY BOARDS PLANE
BBC
21(2/72
D 052/72/06
2'30
COL
WIDGERY
TRIBUNAL
WIDGERY IMAGES
BBC
22/2/72
D 053/72/09
i'36'
COL
WIDGERY
TRIBUNAL
BOOSIDE MODEL &
WIDGERY IMAGES
BBC
24/2/72
D 55/72111
1'SS
COL
WIDGERY
TRIBUNAL
JAMES CHAPMAN
FATHER DALY
FATHER MACWEt

## \1Lc?

BBC VIEWING LIST
L
im
DATE
LIB NO
--
DUR.
CflL
flaw
SUBJECT
BBC
25/2/72
D 056172116
I 48'
COL
WIDGERY
TRIBUNAL
LESLIE BEDELL
BBC
2/3/72
D 062/72/13
28'
COL
WII)GERY
TRIBUNAL
SoLDIERS IN DARK
GLA$SES
-
BBC
3(3/72
o4)63172/13
I '08'
COL
D 063/72/15
24'
COL
WIDGERY
TRIBUNAL
GENERAL FORD
BBC
6/3/72
D 066/72/10
1'04'
COL
D 066/72(11
I'34
COL
WIDGERY
TRIBUNAL
BRIG MACLELLAN
COL WILFORD
BBC
7/3/72
D 067/72/13
I'47'
COL
WIDGERY
TRiBUNAL
SOLDIERS
BBC
8/3/72
D 068/72/22
l'lO'
COL
WIDGERY
TRIBUNAL
SOT
BBC
9/3/72
D 069/72/15
I'12'
COL
WIDGERY
TRIBUNAL
PROTESTANT DEMO &
WIDGERY IMAGES
BBC
14/3/72
D 74/72/11
¡'26'
COL
W1DGERY
TRIBUNAL
LACAN
4
yÇ'
BBC
19/4/72
D II0/72/13
2' II'
COL
D 140/72(03
COL
I'52'
BBC
1914172
24 HOURS
30'OO'
COL
WIDGERY
REPORT
TRIBUNAL CHAMBER SIMON WINCHESTER
FuIR DALY
GENERAL FORD
MARC. MCCARThEY
GERALDiNE RICHMOND JOHN CARR
ISABELLA DUFFY
Vtt».
>r'V)
.°
tr
'1
BBC
2511/87
025/87/COMP
i'or
COL
ECl
(6'459
(ENG)
N)
BBC
3111/82
031/82/VT6
52'
COL
ANNIV.
10TH
BBC
29/1(78
29/78
l'03'
COL
(VT?)
ANNW.
6TH
4
v
WIDGERY
REPORT
IVAN COOPER
EDDIE MCATEER
JOHN HUME
FFHR. DALY
LORD CARRINGTON
fl>C.
.
a4)
t.4Çt
4.+:frtt)t
i4t'..
15TH
ANNIV.

## Bbc Viewing List

LW
DMt
US KO.
DUR
CÇ*. B&W
SUBJECt
DrAILs
BBC 3c
1712/SI
3'SO
COL
(VT)
MAGILLIGAN
SANDS
DEMO WITh JOHN HUME
IRELAND ATV
HISTORY
LOE DS9OP
BUT COULD
:13339
L01158
17/Il/SI
BBC
Il/Il/SI
t
IRELAND ATV
HISTORY
4Y
COL
(VT)
CIVIL RIGHTS
MARCHES
MARCHERS WrrH
PLACARDS ON 0Cl' 68
BBC
18111/68
NP 70983
3'W
COL
CIVIL RIGHTS
MARCHES
DEnY MARCH- INCLUDES
HUME SYNC
BBC
10/12/68
NP 71181
T08
COL
CIVIL RIGHTS
MARCHES
PLACARDS/PETTFION
CAX4AVA}1 tNT.
BBC
9112/68
PLO3 1908
PL 96102
I'09
B & W
CIVIL RIGHTS
MARCHES
LARGE CIVIL RIGHTS CROWD SINGING WE SHALL OVERCOME
BBC
11/2/81
Z'OO'
TO
3'OO
IRELAND A TV
HISTORY
WE DS9OP
BUT ÇOULD
BE
B & W
CIVIL RIGHTS
MARCHES
JOHN HUME COMPLAINING
BrITERLY ABOUT POUCE
BRUTALITY IN 1969 +
IVAN COOPER ON SAME t
CAThOLIC WOMAN +
nat IMAGES
17/Il/SI
11133390g
Ißt 158
.....t.
.4
.A:..
.:...
.:.
BBC
15/8/69
NP 73478
l'OS'
COL
RIOTS
BATtLE OF BOOSIDE
BBC
12-14/8/
69
BELFAST
13769)6098
fl?
COL
RIOTS
BATtLE OF THE BOOSIDE
4'OO'
COL
RIOTS
BATtLE OP THE BOGSIDE
BBC
21/8/69
PANORAMA:
THE VIOLENT
DAYS OF ULSTER
BBC
lS/8fl1
NP 81619
¡'04'
-I

## )11Ksmr P.O&W«.

14V?)tS7M%t 3o
COL
RIOTS
BARRICADES IN DEnY -
TROOPS L PROTEST AT
THEIR REMOVAL

## Bbc Viiewjng List

LIB
DATE
liB KO
DUR..
COLT
SURIECE
DflAIL
BBC
20/2/72
D 051/72/08
A vr
V, '
) flhJ.%
54"
r
COL
VIOLENCE
BOMB
DAMAGE
ARMY
BBC
15/7/72
D 197/72/09
r
fi L3j1 '-Ç---
49"
COL
VIOLENCE
BOMB
DAMAGE
ARMY
BBC
20(9/72
MIDWEEK
18341
1752"
COL?
VIOLENCE
BOMB
DAMAGE
ARMY
BBC
t
16/8/71
PANORAMA
40'ß(
COL
VIOLENCE
BOMB
DAMAGE
ARMY
BBC
4/I IP!
24 HOURS:
ARMY IN IRELAND
7"4r
???
VIOLENCE
BOMB
DAMAGE
ARMY
BBC
30(7/72
D 212/72/09
nr
COL
VIOLENCE
BOMB
DAMAGE
ARMY
BBC
24/4/68
24 HOURS
1440"
???
CATHOLIC
GRIEVANCE
HOUSING COMMENTS & GENERAL DIVISION BETWEEN CATHOLICS &
PROTESTANTS
BBC
7/10/63
NP 70572
412"
COI..
CATHOLIC GRIEVANCE
DERRY RESIDENTSDALLEGING
POUCE BRUTALKY AFTER CIVIL
RIGHTS MARCH & COMPLAINTS
ABOUT PROTESTANT PREJUDiCE
BBC
9/12/68
PANORAMA
21"
tU
CATHOLIC GRIEVANCE
PVC OP CATHOLIC GHETTOS IN
DERRY
3"
B &
W
CATHOLIC GRIEVANCE
DERRY RESIDENTS TALKING
ABOUT INEQUALITIES & PIX OF
bERRY GHETTOS
BBC
14f 10(68
BRENTFORD
NEWS
FILM - NO
NUMBER
BBC
Ø1J
11/8/10
NP77190
i1
l'SI"
COL
35a
BBC
9/5/74
1) 129/74/12
4"! I
COL
bERRY GWS
DERRY STREET SCENES - SOME IN THE RAIN
30051DB GUN RATItE AS TROOPS
DISPERSE RIOTERS & COME UNDER
FIRE.
WRECKED HOUSE- BOMB
EXPLODES - TROOPS FIRING GUNS -
MAN CAUGHT IN CROSS FIRE
MARCH DEGENERATING INTO
VIOLENCE & SOLDIERS SHOT. ALSO
SHOTS OF ARMY & SHOTS OF MEN
IN PARAMU.rrARY UNIFORM
SPECIAL REPORT MADE WITH 2 PARA IN BELFAST. INCLUDES
INTERVIEWS Wif14 PRODS/CATHOLICS ABOUT THE
ARMY
SPECIAL REPORT ON THE ARMY IN NORTHERN IRELAND. MADE WITH
GREEN HOWARDS
TROOPS IN DERRY
LS MS
VARIOUS INCLUDINOBOOSIDE
bERRY CV'S'tra
UB
DATE
UBJ4O.
DOL
'1I'i
.8ttkßlflp
.
:
lEu:
VARIOUS SHOTS 0F TROOPS
ARRIVINO
BBC
22/4/69
NP 72404
i '4V
COL
TROOPS
INTO N.
IRELAND
TROOPS MARCHING THROUGH TIlE STREETS IN ANTI RIOT FORMATION
16'OS
flOØPS
INTO N.
IRELAND
BBC
29/9/69
TWENTIETH
CEWFURY
FOCUS; NORTHERN
21'ZO'
7??
IRA
IRA INTERVIEWS & FREE DERRY
IMAGES
BBC
1714m
24 HOURS:
FREE
DERRY
BBC
23/8182
240182/VT6
35'al_ IN
44'
COL
IRA
MASKED IRA ESCORT FOR COFFIN

                                           r
Notes on a conversation between.
                                                 and Tony cook
on Friday 26th July 1991.
                                   -
Brian had been covering Northern Ireland for the Times since
1964 when lerry O'Neill took over as Prtra M$niàter.

When the troubits began in 69/70 he was sent there sn a turn
and turn about basis with Robert Fisk for the Times. Se knew
the area and the people very well àit had contacts o
                                                      euny
zide of the fence.

When Free Decry was esralished he believes the Army had, nc
policy to%Q4rds it....they thought it. would quickly fall apart.
One of the figures 'ne remembers well.
                                    WUS
                                         'a lunatic called
V*ncent Coyla who csll«d himself the mayor of Free berry.. .he
used to hand out passports t
                             Free-flerry". this was the calibre
of person the Army believed it was dealing
                                           with... they thought
the .'hole thing would just sjwjaer down.
lt dtdnt...end Lt was clear that there was a ,nat .4.e1OE
sru&&ling and gun running going on in Erse Derry.,..cfl one
corner you would have the Army armed to the hilL t
                                                    1ZX17.
Vïttiedress..and on the other there wourd bt a pratt!1iLiry
G?*it In full uniform and clearly armed..and thace
                                                   w49
                                                       not!.ing
tRe Army could do about it.

Rê remembers that to get hold of MartIn McGuiflneSSYC. rh&UC8
Londonderry 6 which was the gaswork's...asked for thc' b'
lodge...asked for Martict and they'd ¿o over the road
                                                         itt
him out of his house.

Cashineila does flot believe thai. the Army's
                                             .:tt; st
ticCilligan Point was the turning point. . Ate cnìcs the
                                                        had
been hardening their attitude for sme tlme.,."snarlir.rrather
than acting."

Just before Bloody Sunday the regular correspondents had been
flU by the Army at a regular informal briefing et Lisburn that.
ie Army was going to go in strong..."that's why there ware so
  ny Press there...we all knew the Army was going to give them
a good hiding." The idea was that a huge arrest operation was
tibe mounted,..with the Army getting tough.

These briefings vère just chats in the bar. The
                                                 agu1ar
ZEk'espoudants would get a call to cóme up (or a drink and It
*bLd be made ojear to them or. a non attributable basis what
Was going to happen. he remembers one Army guy telling him it
IMs going to bea so" them out day.
                                              .
So why did they send
                        the Paras...rethat than E'hi Giaen
Rards'or anydne else?
The Army had a psychological theory that the locals vere
TFtgluened, to death of the Fares. One Para was the reserve unit
¡a50 it seemed sense to use them.
                                                                 r

He witnesseda lot of the arrest vide of the operatioti...he saw
the Paras bashing hell out of the prisoners with their rifle
butts.."there was no sir or madam about it." The language was
very ripe.

He started the day at barrier 14...the water cannon with dye.
in, CSgas arid rubber bullets were h'-ing used
                                              by the
troops...and therioters had bottles and bricks. The usual
thing. But then after 45 to 60 minutes tif riot suddenly the
barricade opened and the pigs came through. He was stood beside
General Ford at the time who. yelled "Go on tb
                                               Patasï 8Cawd
jïrthem."ne was waving them through, telling them to hurry
tdnding up the soldiers.
                                                        --

Çashinella believes the Paras had been wound up for a couple
                                                             of
Zaya befcre...hyped iao a fever sb that they'd rush in and
arrqt s huge load.

5ashinetla followed the Paras in...h* d±dn6t see the first
shofi7Tie stopped beside the first pig'uKt5en Placa...
Tollowed a squaddie up Eden Place and saw him fire directly up
Chamberlain St.. Re then came back to Rossville St....tried tó
get into Glenfada Flats car park but couldn't gt
through...then saw the prisoners being marched bac.k to a
chicken wire compound besides Keils WaIk...attd saw them get a
real bashing.

H. says the whole shoottr.g by the Army lasted
                                                ust e very few
minutes.... five, at the.- most. ue.never_saranr4re-ntuitnd
did not see or hear any nailmombrto äFf.' Otte the Army veEt
Thhe saw none throw anything at thm..7p6ple vtre"just
ttyfng to run away in any direction they could.

He beleives there was another bArricade...at the top of
Chamberlain $t...half across the top-cf it at an angle to
protect the Roasville Flats;

Cashinella spoke to colonel Wilford at the chicken wire
encloure where the prisoners were being kept. This was
immediately after the action. The colonel looked very
flustered1 ha was bright red in the face...ha had to talk to
the media who surrounded him. He said there had been sonic
impronpte fiting and there had been some cLvilian casualties.
the Colcnei then disappeared to report to his superiors and
wasn't seen Cor the rest of the day.

Some colour
             n the day: Brigadier Sherrif
                                          Thornpson...the one
legged Daily Telegraph ;orThern IrelaWd corresponden... sot
there late. Arrived at .:tt city Botet and had just ordered tea
and cucumber sandwiches when the whole place vn taken over by
a horde of media people trying to grab phonas...ha'd missed the
whole thing.
                                                     .
                                                              -.
Max Hastings also th.ze. ..then of the Evening $tandard...sptnt
the whole thing sitting on his shooting stick st Waterloo Place

watching it all from affarI
Martin Lewis1 then cf ItN
                            was a3.most lynched by Derry people
in the cxty Ratel after hi; early evenins newt broadct as
they belie'ìed !zed got it alt wrong.

Cashitelle Js * bleívac LChaa up theory ¿f 1oy
  $av. he thtnks the soldiers just totally over reacted. He
believes itrnay. have
                  aen a dry run for MOtoflnan...afld.he says
it'$ interesting to note that there was
                                  G opposItIon to
Motorman when U happaned...just as there hadn't been any
opposition to the arrests operation of Bloody sunday.

        He sayo it'a hard co izsagine the real depth of feelIng in Derry
        th, next rnorning..."everyone we; shaken oloody rigid...the only
        thing I cm
                    compare it with is Hancheater on the ee;Ic of the
        Münich air disaster. lt was a city numb withpain.'
F
                                                                   -
                                                                      -
        lie believes that Widgery na "a bloody shab1es from begiüning
        to end.'

j;

4

Ca*hiaella is a catholic but he S.s also efl ex solider tcho
3ught with Z Corps crith the Chuckas in Malaya.
                                                 He bac seen a
lot of miiLtary actions and he says of the Paras n' Bloody
Sunday "those guys did not mess about. It was a
                                                 .ery f-trocLous
actLon. if yc
               like to see it that way Lt '.as
                                                brilliat'tly
exercised in that they had complete control v*ry quickly ont it
Was conpietely over the top. They didn't set cet to nur5er
civilians but that's exactly what they did."

J'
¡te sug;ests trying to ftnd the nursing sister in casualty at

## - - _Ff_Athafl2..U.In.R0Spita}_A4 The.Cturittesweds'Tfl1Cie - T

Ris cofleague from the times who was aise there that day
suffered a nervous breakdown in che middle of ft all! Us was at
Stevenson's bakery and witnasied the shootings from theta. Bis
name is John Chacteris.. .he can be contacted through
                                                      rtafl Ropa
or Jjgpy
          css at the Manchester Evenin& $e.cs. .;mention
Cashthella ¿md they .iitb« helpful.

OCCUPATION
PUPIL OF ST JOBPHtS DLRY
- AGE
14 Years
DATE»
1/2/72

This is a statement taken on behalf of lit I4alahy Ooyle
-
by .ueonara Frisai, Derry City.

  I was at the front of. the march on Sunday 30th January
J-972.
       The steward went forward and. was arguing with the
                                                            ::
soldiers.
           The officer in charge paid little attentton to
his words.
            He turned his back on the steward and the sol-
diera moved forwards.
                       The crowd ran when they saw this,
and the soldiers started firing gas and. epraying dye.
                                                         People

## Pwere

     running everywhere caught by the gas and dye.
                                                      I went
towards Colmeine Court to get
                               some fresh air.
                                                When. I reaoh...
ed Colmoifle Court
                    I heard that a man and a boy had been
shot.
         stood around for about five minutes
                                              when everyone
started running.
                  I ran into Gienfada Park and stood behind.
a row of garages
                     knew 'at this time that the army had
fired live buflets at the crowd.
                                  I could hear the gunflre
coming closer and I ran for an opening in Glentada Park.
Before I reached the opening X man pulled, me into a backyard;
                                                             .
We hid behind a dustbin and lookedout ta see it we could
see the army.
               I could see three unarmed men lying on the
ground, in Qlenfad,a Park.
                          One of the men had his left
eyebrow shot away.
                    lie was lying face down ozi the ground.
  I made a move towards this mari but the man in the yard
with. me pulled me back.
                         We then tried to get into this
house, but the tian said we should not as the door of the
back yard was open and the army would be able to see us.
                                                          W i.
We looked towards the wounded men on the ground and the man..
with the eye wound looked up at us and exchanged a few

## Pwords

     with the man in the yard with me.
                                         I heard another
shot coming from the direction of the soldiers and I then
knew that the man had been shot again in tite back cf the
left-hand shoulder.
                     He gave a gran and I could then see
that the man was dea.fr 'fl1 looked across the oourt, and saw
 about eight soldiers running across from my left to right.
                                                                       , .
The first soldier looked around the
                                    corner and saw a 'group
of Women taking shelter from the army gunfire.
                                                He shouted
that he was going to shoot them.
                                  He also called them bastards..
The ma
        in the yard with me said that ti we shcwzt our-

Le1
      aolveahe army would shoot as if they had seen us in the
  '
      yard.
               I followed the izan out. with my hands on top of my
      head.
               Vie stoo4 loking at the soldiers who were still
      threatening 'the wojnen.
                                     I saw a. youth wearing a dark blue
       SUiS panic, and start running.
                                               One of the soldiers shot
      him in the etomsoli before he had even made a step.
                                                                         The sol-
      diez' had shot him from almost poi.t blank range.
                                                                       On Seeing
      tuis, I pani3kèd and ran towards the opening ort my right
      hand side.
                      I heard more shooting but I kept running until
      Iriwas well away from the gunfire eand danger.
         This is niy statement.
                                         Me3.aohy Qoyle.
                                   o/e
                                          Leonard Priai
                                                               1/2/72

(aid 30's, schoolteacher, very sobar ana

## Story

Trouble on day - sign in that Faras surroundad the cathedral in the matting and trained guns on congregation coming out.

On day, when soldiers cam in,
                              I was running through G. Park
diagonally from R. Street bottoni
                                entrance to Abby Park alley,
shooting started. Pulled into backyard
                                      and down behind wooden
fence (still there) by
                       man in his 40's, who is probably Gerry
McKinney who is shot minutes Later. Tried to get in flat but
not let theta in. "Can t get in the dustbin?" shooting going on.
                           -2-

BLOODY SUNDAY
                              UP DATE 2/9./fl

From there they can see:
- Man laid on karb

## P.

Body says"
            t can't
                    iuoy"
                            e shouted "Don't
                                              speak, lia
                                                         stiLl."
but he
        had spoken,
                     revealed he
                                  wag alive,
                                               shot
                                                    in
                                                       back
                                                             and
chest exploded by so].djers at bottom end of G. Park,. (Wray)
Soldiers ran up, Agitated,
                            "Don't move, shoot you bastarde"
                                                              to
Crowd at gable end,
                    iac.luding girls.
Man
     (Heflaid
              from his
                        descrjptjø
                                     and
                                          he
                                              is
                                                  only
                                                        one
                                                             flot
Accounted for)
                stood slightly
                               further back
                                             with hands
                                                         on his
head,
      OPposite gable end. We
                              came out with our
                                                  hands on
                                                           head
because thought if w
                      ware seen then
                                      be shot.
                                               Thought we might
be shot anyway.

McDajcJ Sort of dropped
                             his arras, Perhaps turned
                                                           to tun,
                                                                     Soldier
who was watching crowd being
                                     marched away turned and
                                                                   shot him
in chest almost in reflex actilcon, point blank.
We ran.
           Other man Stopped and took
                                             cover In Abbey
                                                                Park (just
where Gerry McKjnney was shot minutes
                                              later.)
26
    people shot
                     and
                          20,000 people
                                            related
                                                       to
                                                           or knew
                                                                       them.
Everyone was affected in soma way or other.
WITNESS
          : MCDAtD; WRAY;
                             SOLDEERS' STkTE;
                                                 EFFECTS AFTERWARDS.

Mime
     ,
      w th 'ahy. Works as glass and window engraver. Never
in any trouble hut need to check as Paul could carry a lot.
Very affected by it alL, marked him for life, Whether he moved
on to para military is questíon. Everyone says not, as does he.

WITNESS
         ¡
           DONAGItY, JOHNSON
           BARRICADE 1)EATHS
         z Mcllhinney
           GLENFADA flEATHS
NOT WIDGER?

## Story

Stoning soLdiers in Stephenson's bakery, when two rühber
bullets and two real, shots. Doriaghy went down by rna, another
man want to help him and he was shot. Within four Ecet of both
of them. Standing almost in the middle of the waste ground. 20
to 30 tjere. We carried them into a house
                                          nearby. No guns,
bombs, just stoneing by 20 tb 30 peopLe and that was virtually
over when the firing started; Far toc far away to reach them
anyway.

t was panic stricken, and sat Cor good white -
                                                10/15 minutes
on fenca nearby in middle of Keils Walk,

Somebody shouted the army were coming in, and I had a quick
look round the corner in middle of Keils Walk, snracens coming
up and saracen already on pavement there. Soldiers getting out.

Ran up through flats and took cover at gable end at end of

## Vclenfada.

          Only 15 seconds to there. Firing started, clear view
of barricade. People were still walking past, and few fellows
went out and began jeering at the sotdiecs who were firing up
Roasvilie street. I woùld not have done it. May have thought
                                                             it
was just rubber bullets. Two went down, in centre just in front
of barnicade, A third, Nash although I did not realise it was
him at the time, and his father went to help him with white
hankie and was shot.

Bullets still pinging off that barricade and ati over. Bedlam.

Two fe1,.ows across the other siclo of the street, by the flats,
crawling. One hit, seemed to be in the back, was Metihinney who
me and ny friends were supposed to meet and walk with. Other,
who was crawling, I don't know what happened to him.

Not know where the soldiers are, ftrin.g coming from everywhere.

Scared, slight lull, and three/four of us ran frS the gable
end out across Glenfada heading for Abbey Court. Somebody
shouted that the Brits were at the far end.

## Paul Coyle Cont.

Looking back r caught out of the corner of (fly
                                              eye two Brits
coming through bottom
                      left hand corner of Glanfada opening. No
point in stopping, turning, ran on. Soldiers had weapons at
hip, just pumping bullets out.

Shots came, feLlow in front of me went down. Jumped over him,
kept saying Hail Mary, and got through. Two girls, first aid
went past cue and out to the guy who had been shot.

Cuy, bleeding from chast came towards me in Abbey Park, two

       took him away, carried him. Saw another man with mass of
blood on his head. (Joe Ft-Let).

## People

Not know what t did, how t did it, but went a mile and a half into Creggan before t knew where I was. Wrong direction for my home.

Saw no gunman, bombers at any point.

## Ends S.S. Summary Of Irtsh Eye Witnesses Stories

                          L then)
Ordinary working bloke,
                         more amazed and
                                           exasperated
                                                        by
                                                           the
thole thing than anything else.

WZTNESS: His own shooting.
NOT IJLDGFRY.

SHOT - through upper right leg, from front.

STORY

Main march had gone
                          Been
                               down to bottom of the street,
watched rioting, then came back up.

On 'waste
           ground
                   in
                       Witliarn
                                Street,
                                          opposite
                                                    Presbyterian
Church.
        With 2/3 friends
                           (John NlcGhee one of them)
                                                         ,
                                                           threw
handful o
           stones at soldiers who were on church roof, beside
bakery, on that roof and inside.

Roaring1 shouting crowd cf perhaps 20. NO BOMBS AND NO GUNS.

Turned and walking away, not behind corner but near it.

Shot
      in
         right
                leg,
                      went
                            in
                                front
                                       and
                                            out.
                                                 the back.
                                                             Shot
straight on as he turned to walk hack.

Shots from both buildings opposite.

Johnson went to lift me, he was shot too.

Taken to
          house in Calumbe-lila Court, then to hospital within
20 minutes.

6 army pigs at the hospital then beEore anyone arrived. He was
the first wounded to arrive, saw everyone else arriving as if
in a dream.

6 months in hospital with a broken leg, could not walk for a
year,
      still cannot bend that leg or really walk properly 20
years later.

EM D S

                     50)
Priri3.palof Large Derry High School.
                                              Very calm,
                                                           personable,
impressive witness.

WITNESSED
            Bridge shooting
          t
            Gunman in courtyard
                                    .I-IhOWI. ftöu
            McCuigan without scarf when Lying dead
WtDGERY WITNESS

and 2 of

STORY
In courtyard, jammed with many people between blocks i.
RossvLlle Etats. Pig was by back entrance of block 1.

shouting
in
    leg.

SS -
     Mickey Bridge advancin
                          on that pig, unarmed,
"C'mon,
       shoot
            me,
                shoot
                      me'
                          and
                             going down,
                                        shot
Soldier facing him from behind pig shot him.

Sees gunman advancing along gable end at the end of Chamberlain
Street,
        as
            though moving
                            to
                                firet
                                      Gunman has
                                                   white
                                                         hair,
distinguished looking, with black overcoat almost down to his
knees on. Snapshot look at the man, then attention elsewhere.

Thenruns to gap between blocks Z and 3, goes through. McGuigan
is here and tells him they are live rounds. Whistling effects
throughout all thi
                   all around him live bullets.

Gets round to gable end of block
                                 I.
                                   a few minutes later by the
back route, sees MoGuigan dead, and boettes on the barricade.
McGuigan had no scarf on, and had not had one when he saw him a
few minutes before.

HIS thoughts:.
- Paras were keyed up, as though
                                   knew had carte bianche.
- The Paras fired first in the courtyard because
   The heavy thumping sounds of their rifles were the Eirst
shots he heard and he was directly in the courtyard.
   At no stage did they adopt prone firing positions, and take
any cover as they would have done, should have done,
                                                           if they
were being fired upon or thought they were being fired upon.
The soldiers had no fear of being shot apparently. The one by
the pig was in the open, Firing from the hip.
e) The gunman, whom he only saw fleetingly, was moving to fire
(although he could have fired previously but then why were the
soldiers not taking cover?).
d) The soldier by the pig and the gunman were barely 20 yards
apart, and he has
                    often wondered how the soldier missed seeing
him.
      Possibly he
                    says because the angle of
                                                  the Chamberlain
street wall was just that much as to make the soldier not
                                                              able
to see him, arid vice versa,
                             though the gunman could see the pig
and was edging to get the angle to fire at the soldiers who
would he near it.
-
   Taught John Young, good job, "last parson in world to riot."
                                                         jJi9 fl7

Young boy then,
                never talked about it s$ne and. very affected
by memories as told me. Naver beu 5ttvolvtd in anything beE or
or since..

WITNESS : KEVIN HcILIjtNNEY
NOT WIDGERY WITNESS

## Story

Five rows from the front of the massed rioters at bottom of WilLiat Street, Shots were fLred. somewhere behind us or up William Street, could have been rubber bullets or live.

Wetall raü - me, up Chautberlain Street. Panic. Boy feti over and his father Literally yanked hirn up by his hair and on they went. Lu Eront of me.

Army was coming ac.ioss wasteground along Rossville street, on foot and saracens behind. As I got to the courtyard the army were fitting.

Firing bfore the Saracen stopped. Definitely.
Body Lying in middle of car park, people around hirn. Stopped,
could do nothIng for him, ran on. Trying to get between blocks
t and 2 of Rossvilla Street flats. door locked, suiashd part of
it, people crawled through.

Thought it was all over so came out and stood on barricade În
Rossville street.. No stone throwing. Shooting started again.
Seven of Us
            there at the barricades, down we went and began to
try to crawl back to the Rossville street flats doorway.

t was, think, number four. Stood urging next one on. Ed to
crawl and then Last few feet had to
                                     stand up and run.

Kevin Mc.tlhiuney crawling along to me. Getting up to run.. Not
actually see him f att, but pulled him in, and h. says he was
shot, t had to stand up to putt him in and two ahQts went above
my head,

No guns, bombs, not even stoneing. Only on that barr&cada a few
seconds before the firing started.

In shock as crack, crack just went on and on.

NB Remembers no bodies ou barricade when he went to it 50
presumably the shooting was the round that hit Uash, Thung,
Kelly atc.. But tinta discrepancy with Geraldine RLCh.%nOfl4 etc.
relating to Cilmore who say the shooting happeaed as the any
came in and prior to the courtyard shootings'
FIRST INTERVIEW TO ANYONE ABOUT IT by Gerard.
                                                    M 19'

(lwtt 1&QAUW
         r
        I-t.a1ong with mother, two sisters at various
points, and if they could have got in the room another 37
Kiveihans.) MLchael is a taxi. driver, around early 40's. Never
been itt any bother or involved.

His brother, and brother in law, were on the bar±icade when the
shooting started there, and ha is endeavouring to get
                                                      them to
talk to me.

Niehael is believable up to point, but all the contentious

     which is off tape his two sisters and mother backed up
immediately with more detail. So ...
                                     ? Excellent talker

## Rstuff Witness : Glendfada Park Events

T0T WIDGERY and not talked before to anyone.

STORY
Saw two men who had been shot be soldiers early that day. One called Robinson. About io am.

Whole family (four brothers, seven sisters, children etci.) been to aunt's funeral that morning, and on-march in best c].othes etc.

Watching riot at bottom Qf William Street when Paras came out.
Began to run up RossvUle street. Saracens parked across Keils
Walk, Pilots Row, men carne out off them.Over barricade, they had
started shooting
                 - impression was from the men by Keils tialk,
boy got stuck on barbed wire on top of barricade. Not sure if
shot or imt. Been no shooting, bombing, even stoneing at that
po.nt. Me into Glenfda Park,
                              and to my Grannie's flat, top
right corner of top quadrangle. Soldiers coniin
                                                into C. Park
from Keils Walk.

In flat it was pandemonium - women on floor praying, shooting
outside, picking targets by sound of it.

Looking through Letter box into Gienfada saw:
- Young Iella running
                             G. Park towards alley by us, and
soldier leaning down the far
                             conter, shot hirn.
- Young felta arrested by soldier,
                                   against wall, rifle neat or
against his right cheek, shot him.

Went to other side cf house, wLndow looking out on to Abbey
Park, Saw:
           - two bodies laid on ground out there.

Not republican minded, political.
                                                        M19- 389
Of
    the record:
- Man with short arm 5i their flat, disarmtd and got rid of.
- Two nail bombs duMped in street outside his flat. Know
hacause dra2-ed the two boys in who had them. ENDS

## New Witnesses

                                      -
                                                 3,
                                                             former
                                                                                     English
                                                                                                                serviceman who
                                                                                                                                                                  saw riot
serv ce
                           n
                                      at
                                                   ast - Suez, Cyprus, Borneo,
                                                                                                                                              English with no
time for pramilitaries. Would back Eritish
                                                                                                                                               army and their
action normally.)
                                                        EPLAQEMENT FOR
                                                                                                         OLIVE BONNER (Rugh Gilmore's
sister also) who despite a persona]
                                                                                                               visit st.11 refuses to be
interviewed. Like Oliva he was at Widgery.

Position
         t
            Block I of Rossville Flats,
                                           in his back bedroom
overlooking
             the
                  courtyard
                              and
                                   then
                                          i-n
                                              his
                                                   living
                                                            room
overlooking the barricade.

wìten army's first shots came.

ou;t pistol,
                  idiot,
                             fired at
le.
     thrown
                against
                             wall
                                     and
 or even starting pistol.

WITNESS TO ; buddy / gunmen / bodieS being lifted into the pigs
from the barricade.
STORY
Saracens still travelling forward
People shot, Duddy carried away.
Gunman ran along wall,
                         pulled
troops,
         stopped
                  by
                      three
                             peop
"admonished". Could have been .22

No shooting at army apart from that. Helicopters overhead made
noise like machine gun but sure there was none from the
                                                         flats
and had good view out at them. Knofl difference between Thomson
machina gun, and 102, which paramititaries had, and the SU the
Paras had - only army firing apart from man he saw, Flats not
been used for ambushes before - too: few escape routes.

out front then and ran tohis living room to look out
 barricade. Z bodies, dyi,
                             other men trying to get
barricade. Army letting rip. Elderly Nash came out to
his
    son and was shot by
                          the army
                                    in
                                        fusillade of

Shooting
onto the
over the
protect
bullets.

Army in Glenfada Park, firing from low points two thirds along
far side at area behind R. flats, block 2.

Soldiers arrested people at Gable end of Glenf ada,
up along R. $treetsiee and frisked them.
                                                    lined them

Saracen came up behind barricade, 4 or 5 soldiers
                                                  threw the
bodies itt to it 31 TAKING A WRIST AND A LEG EACH AND THROWING
THEM IN, LIKE PIECES OF MEAT.

NO guns on the barricade. Nobody ùear those bodies to take any
guns away until army reached them.:
Paras panicked, and anything that moved they
                                              shot. NOT TAKING
ANY COVER SO MOT BEING SHOT AT,
Widgery - really thinks it was a whitewash, not interested.
                            -1-

                                             b tM unity ot thcugln nd action".
t8TCd Oflcc Kiagtlsher Studios. g ktekigtt$in Sfrvet, Sheftield
                                                                si 480
                                                                            acgtstemd th EttM2d sad

- rt %a1.T Ì5fl.nadst Party councillor till 1989, and
somewhat tainted. Qn other hand, an accountant, clearly middle
cLass, edup.ated, well off, not bitter or para military etc..

WITNESS
          ticoitligan
          Three shot in Glenfada (McKiney, Wray, 7)
          Arrested
        i Mood of Paras
NOT WIDGERY

STORY
At McGiltigan, where Paras were brutal with no excuse as there
was nothing to throw at them at all eKoept for sheep shit.

B.S
     Main march in some panic as arrived opposite nste ground
in William St as front of the march was turning back frein the
bottom where rioting had begun. No trouble expected at all.
Carnival.
Went through waste ground, Keils Walk, to the Cable Wall by.
barricade at end of Glenfada,opposite Rossvtlle flats entrance.
No rioting insight. No shooting till reached there, when
whiplashes of bullets being fired began. Brother Eammon 16 was
there, who he had gone off looking for.
Looked around the end of the gable into Roasville street and
the army were there in force. One Paca on his knee, far side,
and number spread across the road, all on one knee, levelling
rifles and f iring. Jumped back quickly without really seetng
any bodies on barricade or not. Little boy
                                                 f 8 behind me,
holding my trenchcoat. Wondering whether to fly or not.
Three people dashed out from gable enti, ran f uU belt to other
side of Glenfada, then all three dropped vertically. Realised
been shot from Clenfada. Not move after the burst of gunfire.
Para came round cornet, then number of others. Very supriseci to
see crowd of us, surrounded, and then rough arrests, cursing,
kicking. Paras were hyped up, psyched out, very odd. The people
there were all in fear of being shot. What saved us was that
there were so many of us, including children.
Taken running style down through Clenf ada, hands on head after
being searched against a gall. Into lorry, threats, ran
gauntlet of police and paras into holding room, where
indiscriminately charged. Corporal
                                             charged him. Paras
gradually out of scene. Released at 11. pm, with Police officer
who took hirn out conratulating him on his recent pamphlet on
 future oI province,
                        Won't you please sit down?"
No gunst bombs anywhere in Glenfada. The three were no threat
 to anyone when shot. Thought saw man with rifle in Keils walk
as went through, going other way to hUn.
                                                        EtIDS

Ç early 4'v; Wiagery %fltneo -
is videttce In the late.st. hatch.

Greggan Priest at time - very clòsa to what was happening, knew who wag in and who not etc.. Now electoral officer for azea.

WITNESS t
          Agreentents by the paramilitaries; soldiers; affects;
general injustice of the time and the feel of the Creggan. Was
there but not really see much actually happen

STOWI
        Many parishoners asked "Is it safe to go?" so we got
assurances from PIBA and CIRA that it was and told people it
was safe. We ar
                 sure there were no gunmen there that day.

SVery, very big issue the march and the paramilitaries keeping
      their word. Pariah turned out because we had got the promise.
*
      tn Q. Park, and at Cable end - saw bodies but not actually sea
      people shot.

Afraid f er his life despite his priest's clothes when hands on
head in G. Park. Thought paras were quiet, deLiberate, callous.
Let go and moving out of the area
                                    - met 2 IRA men, who were
weeping and going for weapons to hidden
                                        s tore.

Well known
           IkA
                (Ren on march
                             and not armed
                                            - could not be, be
lifted
       and get
                long
                     sentence. Convjncaa
                                         they kept
                                                    their word
and that their Organisations did.
Army - had very lo4
                    level cE
                             ifltQlljge
                                         and were expectjnz to
be fired on, but they got it wrong - no weapons, no grand plan,
no great
         trap.

If had had weapon5 people
                          wou]4 have used them as thought
                                                          you
were going
           to be killed.
                        I woul4 have used one - so afrai4
After - funerj8
                 Very emotional,
                                and people queuing tip
                                                      to join
the IRA.
         Young men with careers, Prospects,
                                           from all
                                                    over the
north tFtre
            it ajj «wy and joined Up,
                                       Derty especially, and
agenda for
          20 years was sat.

## Up Date 2/9/91 Bloody Sunday I Íl'Ltbr"

Now qualified psychiatric nurse, wOrked alt over the world Peru, Middle East. The trainee nurse.

WITNESS
        : GILMORE / MeGUICAN I KELLY deaths
            PLUS
                   there are a series of stills in Derry of he
and Cilmore running,
                        and
                             basically
                                         of
                                             Cilmore's
                                                        Last
                                                              few
minutes alive.

## Story

At R. flats end in R. Street, Hugh Cilmore ran past hirn, G. had
been stoneing and waiting forsoldiers to charge
                                                     - the normal
tactic, engines gunned behind him,: and 2 shots, Gilmore hit,
staggered on,
               tried to get into the doors to fiats but they
shut in panic, then dow-n. Frankie and Seau McDermott dragged
him half around
                   the corner of
                                    the
                                         flats
                                                 at-rd
                                                      tended
                                                              him.
Soldiers at Kells Walk, and then in Oient ada Park who fired at
us.

Gilmore went blue, Geraldene Richmond and Frankie gave Last
rite8.
       Shooting
                 still
                       going
                             on
                                   around
                                          them.
                                                 alus,
                                                       gave
artificial
           respiration,
                        but
                             stomach
                                      shot
                                            away
                                                 and
                                                      began
gurgling blood. Got màuthful of blood and vomit as gave mouth
to mouth, Richmond began screaming hysterically at this and
backed against the watt with others at thQ end of R. St f i-ate
block 1..

McGuigaj-t looking out at G. Park,
                                    Frankie thinks he was looking
to stop the shooting so that they could get Hugh away.
                                                             He was
shot
       looking towards G.
                            Park.

2 shots at me, by Cilmore's body. Could see Kelly huddled, hit
by bullet which went
                    straight through him.

Wino came down the street towards us trota Free Derry Corner,
.4t1
     tin box on his head during a lull.

Ne SM Dy wate vero standing at the corner of flats opposite Glenfada Park.'
John Giimoro jupod into the air shouting "I've been bit" and. be started
                                                            --
running towards the cover of the flats where we were standing.
                                                    Z'
                                                      friend -
God I grabbed Gilmoro by each arm and diagged him around the oorner
                                                         Just
beside the telephone boa Gijmot'e collapsed to the ground.
                                                Z got down beside:
Gilmora, WY friend stood. by to ward people off. I commenced to opon his
jerkin to find where ho had been hit.
                               The bullet liad gone in on the ri4it
sida just under the lung, I think.
                             I took oft my jumper and tried to stops
the bleeding.
            I toit around. the rest of his body to see it he bad. been hit
anywhere sise and found that ou his left nids the bullet had come ont taking.
moat of his intostìten with it.
                           There won't much bleeding at this point.
It seemed, that ho must bave boon bleeding intornajlT.
                                            flood started. to cows
up his mouth. I wiped the blood away Sud tried to give artificial respiration.-'
 oh time I did this I heard a sound indicating that his lung had bean wfl
otured.
       All during thin period there nu shooting around us.
                                                   Nr. floèzigau
stood up with his hands in the air trying to taU the aruo
                                                   to shoot.
}b. NoGiigan fell to the ground
                            blood pouring frow his head..
                                                    We know
immediately that he was dead, due to the amount of btQOd he lout.
                                                      This wan
was unarmed.
           Die to the fiero, shooting ve were forced to leave Gitter. knowing
that he was about to gis.
                             the
flve of un pinned ourselves against n wall beside the phone boa.
                                                                   cl:.
At the steps loading up to Yahan Street, Z noticed that another man bad.
                                                              ,!
been out down.
             This man, I found ont later had also tied.
                                                 People began
to wave white hankies in the Sir.
                            There was stili shooting, then a lull
during which we managed to gat out and Luto a flat.

BY now a fleet of axbutanoen had, arrived and were stten&thg to dead end. in-
jured people.
              Priests Md. also arrived at this point.
                                                     Abulanoo wet and
priests were carrying the people to the ambulances when shooting again broke
out.
     Eventually it began to lull and finally died out,
                                                      It was the most
                                                                        .1
territying experience I have ever encountered, especially knowing that au
these peaoetul demonstrators vere without doubt unarmed.
                                                       The army st
time came under any tire from Jtossvile
                                     flats or any other area.
 a_Ja 'mt atatowont.
                     Siguedi
                              Prank Z4eilau
                                                                  -

## Martin Mcgijinness

We're cut to really get an idea of whether there were any bombs or rifles or anything.

Mainly cos we've got 4 or 5 blocks of not startling new evidence, but new to the British public which is what its aimed, but jE wehave those bloc1cs and then we go down any sort of route where we're actually saying that there

really
        wasn't
                anything
                           there
                                   on
                                       the
                                            day,
                                                   there
                                                          was
                                                               no

possibility and the army get one chink of evidence against it.

me good things that we've got ? thats why
                                          I mean we've taken

the line that who fired first is almost irelevant in many ways,

even if there was some out of
                              control Maverick republican in
the flats who did fire and that sparked off
                                            this and sparked

off this and everything.

It really wouldn't justify or explain many of the bther killing fields that went on.

You know people shot in the back of the head waving white hankies and so on.

But I mean you're obviously hopefully the man who, if you give us. an inkling to give us än atmosphere and feel of the plac at

that time and as Gerry had done beforé
                                       ?
                                         came in.
                                                    We can

probably just identify a bit more what might or might not
                                                          have

been going on and so on you know.
                                   So its not that we're trying

to catch anybody out.
                       I mean I dont think I'm obsessed
                                                         with

it.
      I'd really like to know, probably talked to about 7 people
now, I'd really like to,
                                 if anybody ever can I'd like to be

sort
      of
          certain
                   in
                       my
                           own
                                mind
                                      I'\re
                                            got
                                                 a
                                                    real grip on

potentially what did happen.

It does seem the psychology of the Parachute Regiment, not just the Parachute Regiment but the army in general at the time is quite important to understand.

To get to grips with what's happening.

mats right.

And thats quita central ta what wetre doing.
                                              But we do need to
know fairly accurately as
                            best we
                                     cart you know sequence of
events and what actually happened, even if this question who
fired first, which is a big utter cornplext he4re, even if that
is iresolvable on any side.

What is the conflict from the British Army side, what are they

esaying?
   Well
       if,
          surely you
                   know that at Widgery just about every
   single soldier stood up and said I saw a gunman, he pointed a
   gun at me and
              I
               fired at him.
                          Or I saw a nailboxnber and
                                             I
   fired at him.
               And then of course you've got the fatality
   reports which show that many of the people were shot in the
   back or the side and many of the injured were as wll it seems
   so 9'ou have, something doesn't add up somewhere. To try to get
   to the bottom of that, one also needs to know as accurately as
   one can what actually bloody well happened on that day and if
   one can what the IRA were doing who went there basically.

         feeling.
                     ?
                       but basically the evidence is that the
first shOoting was here.
                           Now as this pig comes in..

## Sthinking

At the back of the flats?

Yeh at the back of the Market Flats.

As this pig comes in..

The first shooting?

The first shooting.

Well forget that, forget that.

? shooting.

Yeh forget that basically Widgety discourts that these soldiers were fired on.

In a legalistic way, but he basically dIscounts it.

Yes he does, he says both Johnson and Donaghee were the..

The two men who were injured.

Surely that gives you a good insight into the psychology of the soldiers.

lt begins to.
                Well, well noft raises questions, it doesn't
give
     you
          any
                insight
                        into
                              their
                                     psychology.
                                                    lt
                                                        raises
questions about their psychology.
                                  Which one has to answer.

Yeh but if there's an acceptance that British soldiers fired
onto ?
       innocent people and shot them right, then that clearly
gives an indication of the attitude of these other soldiers who
later massacred the people in this area here.
                                               You know.
                                                          It
goes a long way towards discounting the theory that they were
fired on.
          By anyone.
                      Doesn't it?

It indicates, yes it does indicate but it doesnt explain and
what we're trying
                  to do is explain.
                                      Yes it does certainly
indicate,
          and
               its
                    highly
                            suspicious
                                       but
                                            it
                                                raises
                                                        many
questions of why.

But I dont know how 7 discount this in the story. We're not discounting it.

You've asked me.

You see I think that the reason that they shot these two people here was to draw the IRA into a gunfight.

Thats
       why
            these
                   shootings
                              I
                                 think are
                                             the
                                                 most
                                                       important

shootings.

## Those Two, Donaghee And

There had
          to be a reason why these people were shot.
                                                          If
everybody accepts that at that stage,
                                      I mean there might be
doubts, I say there was no shooting.
                                    Some people say there was
shooting British Army.

Here?

No.
      Through the thing.
                               Throughout the thing they're saying
that people were shooting at them and they fired back.
                                                                     The
most important shootings of all for me is the shooting of John
Johnson and that fellow Donaghee who was beside him because to
try and get to grips with what happened that day, you have to
work out the reason why two people who were clearly unarmed
were shot by a British Soldier.
                                      Right.
                                               And I have always been
of the opinion that this was a military operation as opposed to
political sanction and that the reason it was done was to draw
the IRA into a gunfight.
                              Where IRA people inevitably, because
they were in a gunfight, one or two of them would be killed.
And
      then
            if
                civilians were killed
                                            the British Army tould
justify it to the world that they had been fired on, because
here's Mark McGuilless lying dead 7 with
                                                a rifle by his side.
Right.
         So t mean they're the most important shootings of them
all.
       The shooting of John Johnson.
                                           In my opinion.
                                                              Obviously
what happened next then is did the IRA respond to the shooting
of John Johnson and the f elloti Donaghee?

Yes thats the next logical question?

And
    its
         quite clear that
                              the IRA did not respond
                                                          to
                                                              that

shooting.

And why do you say its quite clear?

Because there obviously was a decision taken by the IRA at that
time, I mean I'm not speaking on behalf of the IRA, I must make
that clear.
              But as someone who would be quite knowledgable
about
      the events
                  and attitudes of different people at
                                                           that
time, it has become quite clear to me that there was a decision
taken by the IRA in Derry at that time that because of the
importance of the demonstration and the huge turnout of people,
that there would be no military conflict whatsoever on that
occasion.
          That was an occasion which had to be kept completely
free oE military activity and the impression has always been,
i;
   has
        to
            be accepted
                          that
                                because
                                        it
                                            was
                                                 a
                                                    Free Derry
situation there were, its wrong to say a considerable amount of
guns.
       There certainly was weaponry in the Free Derry area of
rifle,
       shortarm,
                  machinegun,
                               explosive nature which
                                                        it
                                                           has
always been quite clear
                           to
                               anyone
                                      who's
                                             been involved -in
Republican politics or the Republican movement at that time,
was on that day left at home.
                               Which meant it was deliberately
kept out of
             this immediate area where the march was to take
place.
        And that is a fact.

## Why Was It Left At Home?

Simply because people felt that if you had Republicans on the
march who had arms with them and -the situation did develop
where soldiers would fire
                           on either with rubber bullets or
snatch bullets or things like that,
                                     that there was always a
risk that somebody who was hot headed.
                                        You know cos at that
tizne you're talking very young, the average age of volunteers

would have been quite young.
                              And you always ran a serious risk
that there would be
                      flare-up situation and that someone would
open fire on a snatch squad or on like an armoured vehicle or
something like that which would have been qttite useless when
you consider the defences that the British had at that time.
To be honest I
                think that the IRA in Derry at that tinte had
much more
          7
             than the British Army.
                                     You know and the opposite
should have been the case.

## Volunteers Would Be What 17-22 Years?

I think the average age at that tinte would have been around,
20/21/22/23.

Very young.

## 40/50 Strong Provisionals?

I would say they were much stronger than that.
                                                mats another
fable which has resulted as a result of
                                        7
                                          the British and the
peopl! and
           the British media always make
                                           this mistake that
there was a massive mf lux of young Derry people and other
people in other parts of 7 into the ranks of the IRA because of
what happened on Bloody Sunday, and that is total and absolute
nonsense.

## Internment Being The Biggest Thing Six Months Earlier?

More important than that again in this.
                                         The most important
shootings in this city in the past 20 years was the shooting of
Shamus
       Cusey(?)
                 and
                      Dessie
                             BeeO)
                                     by
                                         the
                                              Royal
                                                    Anglian
Regiment.
           They were the most significant shootings and they
were the shootings which more than anything else, they happened
before internment was introduced.
                                  Which opened the ranks of
the IRA to many many more people in the city.

Do you think if
                the Provjsionals
                                arid
                                     the Officials, strong
order had gone out
                 an that fingers had been wagged that there
was to be no military activity on this day.

Well I mean I dont know what the officials done on the day.

No no sorry.
              The sort of currents that you were aware of.
                                                             But
if we take that they had the same line, would there have bean
any possibility of you know like a Maverick
                                                 or one or
                                                             two
Mavericks.

No.

The discipline was under control at that time.

In my àpinion there was absolutely no possibility whatsoever of
a Maverick IRA volunteer Provisional for want of a better term
to distinguish between
                       the two groups at that time, going off
on his own and doing his own thing in relation to attacking the
Britih Arthy or anything like that.
                                       I mean that just didnt
happen.

I
   mean
            if
                 a
                     brother
                                 had
                                        had
                                               somebody
                                                             injured
                                                                         or
                                                                              had
                                                                                     a
grievance, there couldn't be the scenario
                                                           that they would
                                                                                 sort
of amble down with their rifle,
                                              could pull the sort of clear
the streets thing and people would obey them.

No way.
          I mean the àtreets
                              were athrong with people, it was
the largest march I
                     ever seen in the city.
                                               It was absolutely
huge:
        And
             I
                mean it
                         would
                                have been
                                            totally out of
                                                              the
question
          that someone would have contemplated doing such a
thing.

And our friend painted the picture of the set routine that
after a march there'd be a
                            riot and then a build up to
                                                         a
situation. The explosivas or guns for that build up to some
sort of operation would have been way out of, the area until
after the march had cleared?

     Absolutely.
                    I'm not
                              saying
                                      that
                                            there wasnt
                                                          guns
                                                                in
                                                                   the
     bogside area or the 7 area or in close vicinity to the march,
.there
           probably was, but I would say they were in houses, a few
     like dumps and things like that there, but there was no way you
     had units of the IRA marching through the crowd you know armed

to
    the teeth to attack the British army.
                                                       That just didnt
happen.
          But I mean I dont understand what the sense would have
been it on such an occasion.
                                    I mean there may have been other
occasions when
                   it did happen,
                                       you know when you're talking
about smaller you know type groupings of people and obviously
young people at that
                          tinie and the activities of the ERA were
very much ? because people supported the IRA totally and they
were told to clear a street, they'd clear the street and that

wa
    it
          And that happened constantly right through, specially
from the introduction of internment and 7
                                               '71.
                                                      It was a very
tense period from the introduction of internment right through

to
    Bloody Sunday
                      in
                          terms
                                  of you know Free Derry had been
establishes, barricades were 7
                                      perimeter of the area.
                                                                   It was
very difficult for the Brits and the RUC to come in.
                                                               There was
total and absolute control here.
                                          People done what they were
told and it was all very you know, in terms of you know, a lot
of very youthful inexperience,
                                       there wasn't an awful lot of
experience about.
                       People ov&r a pe±iod of time knew exactly
what
       to
           do
                in
                    a
                        particular
                                      situation.
                                                     That all
                                                                  led
                                                                        to
Republicans and the lead up to Bloody Sunday accepting that
that march and a huge turnout of people was more important than
any military result which could be affected on that day.

So after the Paras went in and the shooting started, did the IRA get involved?

I
    think
             the
                    feeling
                                 of
                                      most
                                               IRA
                                                     volunteers
                                                                      was
                                                                             one
                                                                                   of
helplessness at that time because most Republicans that I knew
attended the march, marched-on the march and I was on the march
with many
                others
                           and
                                  our
                                        feeling
                                                    was
                                                           just
                                                                   one
                                                                          of
                                                                               total
exasperation and frustration and disbelief that this could be
happening.
                 I
                    think its true to say that everybody was in a
state of shock, that people were dropping all around you, you
kno4, thoughts weren't of running, people running to get guns.
Thoughts were of lifting bodies beside you, and Peggy Deane
was shot beside me.
                             And in the Chamberlain Street area at the
back of the flats and there was just people dropping like flies
all around and I think that the whole community including IRA
men who were there were in a state of shock.
                                                               For that you know
half hour period, or 20 minute period after the shooting had
started,
             people just didnt know how to respond to what was
happening,
                afld
                      I
                          think
                                   that most people were tied up and
lifting bodies and getting people out of the road.
                                                                        And saving
themselves as well because I mean you were talking about a
massive onslaught here of you know lots, of shooting, quite
clear who
               was
                      doing
                               the
                                      shooting because of
                                                                    you know
                                                                                  the
calibre of the weapons and things like that.
                                                                    I mean people
knew that the IRA wasn't firing, they knew that the people who
were doing the shooting was people with SLR rifles and things
like that, and it
                          was a very intense, very you know fearsome
time for everybody, including Republicans.
                                                                Many Republicans
who had themselves been involved
                                              in combat against the British
army were in a state of shock arid didut know how to respond,
and I think that one of the last thoughts that came into their
heads was of running to get guns because they were looking at a
situation where people were being shot dead 7 and hundreds of

soldiers had come into the Bogside.

It was obviously a major if you like attack for want of a better word, on the Bogside area which up until this had been Free Derry, and I think that anybody with any 7 would have looked at it and said well I mean pull a rifle out here and its not 13 people who are gonna be

dead,
       its gonna be 33 people or 300 people, because they're
just gonna keep firing and firing and_firing.
                                                     And in between
times people;were waving white flags, looking for medical aid
for people who had been shot.
                                  And the shooting still continued
and I think that people were traumatised.
                                                 I know I certainly
was. by the events of that day.
                                      I really didnt know how to
respond.

## Was There Any Response At All?

In my opinion there was no response from the IRA Provisionals
right.
        Over the years there has been this story about a man
some half hour after the shooting had taken place appearing
with a shortarm somewhere, and quite pathetically firing in the
direction of the Paratroopers.
                                I dont know if thats true or
not but that is a story which has sort of
                                            7
                                              in the time, if
thaT happened it certainly happened it certainly happened well
a&sr the 13, well the 20/30 people I think had been shot by
the Paratroopers.
                    But
                         certainly during
                                           the period of
                                                          the
initial
         gunfire
                  by
                      the
                           Paras
                                 which
                                         killed
                                                the
                                                     civilian
population, there was absolutely no, not one ? of evidence that
guns had been fired.
                      I mean the other issue, the issue of the
British issuing the statements saying that they believed that
there was nailbombs and weapons in the area, if that had have
been the case because soldiers had encroached onto the Bogside
and had come under the if the you like our territory, it would
have been quite easy for an IRA volunteer at that time to have
lit a nailbomb and have thrown it at them right, yet there

wasntt
       one explosion.
                        1f all these nailbombs were about,
                                                            and

if they were in the hands of io many people,
                                             why was there not

one single .nailbomb thrown?
                               Because at that stage it
                                                         would

have been easy to do because the soldiers
                                          hd actually come

into the area.
                With vehicles and with large snatch squads, and

other
       units
              of
                  the
                       British
                                 Army
                                       opening
                                                fire.
                                                         Do
                                                             you

understand what I mean?
                          riot one single nailbomb was
                                                      thrown

because no-one heard an explosion of any
                                         description.
                                                       So
                                                          I

think that gives a lie to this
                               story that there was
                                                    nailbombs

in the area.
              tif there had have been, because of the psychicO)
of the people, you know although there would have been shock

and trauma and everything else, some one person was
                                                    bound
                                                          to

have reacted with a nailbomb or an explosive device and thrown

it, even if it was pathetic response, or an act
                                                of frustration

or an act of madness in the context of what was happening.

You would have expected people to have been injured as well?

Well t mean not one pressman who was present that day said that

he heard any explosion whatsoever.
                                     t dont even think
                                                        the

British Army alleged. They aLleged that there was nailbombs but

they never alleged that there was an explosion.

As afar as I've been reading, quite a lot of the
                                                 tribunal,
                                                           t

havent yet read a soldier who said he heard one
                                                explode.
                                                         What

about a couple çf other points.
                                 One is this, the witness who
said he saw a carload of people with guns draw up
                                                    after the

shooting had begun,
                    7
                       get out, fire some shots, get
                                                      in, went

off again.

I knew nothing about that at all.

Were the volunteers very accurate.
                                    I mean if there had been
some volunteers firing, would they have hit any soldiers?
                                                           No
soldier was hit, scratched or anything.

       Well I mean in the months prior to Bloody Sunday quite a number
       oE British soldiers lost their lives here as a result of some
       very effective I&A attacks on them and I mean there could be
       not doubt that, the way in which the British army came into the
P

area on
        that
              day,
                   if
                      the IRA had have been expecting
                                                        the
British army to do that, a number of soldiers would have been
shot.
       But
           I
              cant
                   say, how can you say if
                                            a man would be
killed, but certainly they would have been shot.

There was a degree of confidence.

Because there was so many, well there's no doubt about that, I
mean there were soldiers killed here and single shot 7 you know
for months prior to that in different parts of the city and
there's no way that you could compare the degree of accuracy of
a British soldier to
                       an IRA volunteer,
                                          but because of
                                                           the
num%ers of soldiers which encroached
                                      on the Bogside on that
day,
      there
            could
                   be
                       absolutely
                                   no
                                       doubt
                                              whatsoever
                                                          that
somebody would have struck lucky somewhere and would have had a
British soldier.

And the other thing the Army's said was that people fired and
guns and so on were spirited away.
                                  Is that a likely scenario?

The British army and their propagandas have said that about
area volunteers for the past 20' years.
                                    - He was seen to fall and
was spirited away.
                   And I mean if ali. IRA volunteers who the
British army
             said were killed were killed,
                                            there would be
hundreds of dead IRA volunteers lying in unmarked graves and

cemetaries all around Ireland.

And thats a total and absolute lie, its a total nonsense.

And is it the same about the weapons?

I
   can oniy speak,
                          I
                              cant speak for the attitude taken by
members of the official Republican movement at that time, I can
only speak f roit the position of knowledge of what the attitude
of the provisional Republican movement was on that day, and it
was quite clear that under no circumstances was the Republican
moveMent to become involved in any military activity whatsoever
with the British army.
                                You see hindsight's a wonderful thing.
Put yourself in the mind of a Republican at 12 o'clock on that
day.
        Nobody expected this to happen.
                                                     Nobody for one minute
that day expected that by 4 hours later,
                                                         S hours later that
such a thing would have happened.
                                             lt just was not contemplated
that the British army would have done such a thing.
                                                                         It was
always. contemplated
                             that
                                     they
                                             were
                                                     capable
                                                                 of
                                                                       shooting
Catholics,
               Nationalists,
                                  Republicans you know in
                                                                     a
                                                                         2
                                                                            type
scenario
             or
                 a
                     7
                        type
                                scenario or at some sort of a riot
situation.
                That was always contemplated that someone could be
shot.
          But nobody expected that mass murder was gonna take
place on the streets of Derry on that day, so no provision was
triade for working out a response to what the British army would
do if you understand what I mean.
                                             I mean you would expect that
you know maybe the IRA sitting down in the morning and working
out you know this is Plan A, this is Plan B and this is Plan B.
This is something that nobody expected to happen.
                                                                   I certainly
never for one minute expected that the British army would have
done what they done in Derry on that day.
                                                          Definitely not.
                                                                                I
mean it was just the whole situation and what happened, it was
just so unbelievable,
                               t couldnt b!lieve it what had hapened.
And I think most people of Deny couldnt believe it either.
                                                                               I

remember
         about
                 7
                   o'clock
                            that
                                  night being
                                                in
                                                    the
                                                         Craigen

Estate.
          And people were getting on buses to go to bingo at

Balcara çounty Donaghue.
                           And I remember getting on a bus and
shaming thea and they come off the bus.
                                             It was only years
afterwards that, those people didnt know, they were in a state
of shock, total disbelief.
                             They were trautnatised, they didnt
know how to respond or handle the events of that day because t
mean if they had -4-ìave had a day or two to think about it, they
wouldn't have contemplated going to bingo at 7
                                                 yet here they
were 3 hours later on a bus at
                               7 and I seen the bus and it was
justan act of fury on my part
                                   that
                                        I
                                           got on the bus and
started giving off, you should be ashamed of yourselves, all
the rest of it.
                  And people were like lambs 7
                                                 the bus.
                                                            But
that was, but I didnt realise it at the time, what it was that
made those people do that.

Will you take us through you know what you did that day and..

I was on the march, I was with the main body. What you actually saw and went through.

Well I was an the march which ended up at William Street which was blocked.

So you came down to William Street, and the main march had gone off, followed up there.

The main march.

No the main march, a lot of the people at the front, the Street wasnt blocked here the intention was to march into the town as you know, right.

So most people marched..

This is Rosfield Street.

Airight.

The march, the march went right after the march had been blocked.

Ah right sci there was ? ranks came down here.

Aye at Rosfield Street.
                         Most people felt that it was possible
that they would have got through at the bottom or if they didnt
that they woutd go down and make a token protest, and turn and
come back and go to..

So most people on the march actually thought they'd get through

to..

I'm not saying that they thought that they would get through.
They probably thought that they wouldnt get through, but that
if they were down in the crowd maybe the ranks would open and
you know there was a lot of. .at that time that wouldat be there

now.
       And a lot of people, hundreds of people went down to
where the British army was, and there was a state of if you
like confrontation, you know verbal abuse and things like that
going on.
            And t would have been there with that group, but I
mean it quickly became clear to people that nobody was gonna
get through.
               The snatch squad started to conte out of the lower
end of William Street and I ended up in Chamberlain Street over
here, right, and this is where Peggy, right just here where
Peggie Deane was shot.

You ran down there, all the way down.

We didnt run we walked originally because the soldiers were
coming so far..

Somebody had shouted they're coming out.

There was all sorts of shouting, state of confusion at that stage.

Did you see Deane shot?

I didnt see her bing shot but I seen her shortly after she was shot.

As she was being carried into the house.

She tzas bleeding profusely from a thight wound.

And there were some people carrying her.

She was carried, there were all sorts of people around her. And then where did you go then?

I ended up ovar here towards the front of the flats where, it
was just a state of chaos at this stage because they were
firing right
             1.ef t and centre and it was a matter of people
surviving.
            Feeling that they were gonna be shot because this
woman had been shot.
                     And there was reports from all round this
immediate area and this area here that the people were shot and
were seriously wounded.
                        Nobody at that stage knew that anybody
was dead and at that stage it was just a mass of confusion.
                                                           We
ended up walking aimlessly round the place lifting peopLe who'd
been wounded and getting people out
                                       of
                                           the
                                               toad who were

frightened and scared.
                        There was women crying and old men.

Any shots over your head when you were running down?

No I dont remember shots over my head no.

There was all
              sorts of shouting, state of confusion at that
stage.
                   -

## Did You See Deane Shot?

I didnt See her bing shot but I seen her shortly after she was shot.

As she was being carried into the house.

She was bleeding profusely from a thight wound.

And there Were some people carrying her.

She was carried, there were all sorts of peoplearound her.

And then Where did you go then?

I ended up
           over here towards the front of the
                                               flats where, lt
was
          a state of chaos at this stage because they were
firing right
             left and centre and
                                   it was
                                          a matter of people
surviving.
            Feeling that they were gonna be shot because this
woman had been shot.
                     And there was reports from all round this
immediate
          area and this area here that the people were shot and
were seriously wounded.
                        Nobody at that stage knew that anybody
was dead and at that stage it was just a mass of confusion.
                                                            We
ended up walking aimlessly round the place lifting people whotd
been wounded
              and getting people out
                                       of
                                           the road who were
frightened
           and scared.
                       There was women crying and old men.

Any shots over your head when you were running down?

No I dont remember shots over my head no.

## Alec Nasji -

I 75/i

AND THEN WE WERE GOING HOME, YOU KNOW, ME AND wrLLIE. AND I
                                                            SAYS
"COME ON «. AND WE WERE GOtNG TO GO H°ME THEN.
                                              JE WERE GOING HOME

     .
         . .AND TÍIERE WERE TWO YOUNGSTERS ALONG WITH OUR WILLIE, YOU KNOW
AND I WAS MAYBE ABOUT TEN YARDS IN FRONT OF THEM AND THERE WAS
A WEE BARRICADE - I'M TELLING YOU WHAT I REMEMBER - THERE WERE
A WEE BARRICADE JUST AT IRE HIGH FLATS AND WE WERE WALKING ACROSS
AND I WAS IN FRONT AND THE NEXT THING I HEARD WAS A PUTT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    VAS
THE SHOOTING, THE SHOOTING THEN.STARTED. AND I LOOKED ROUND AND
 I SEEN THE THREE ON THE GROUND - THE TWO YOUNGSTERS LIKE THAT
THERE AND ONE WAS IN THE MEDDLE. AND I WENT OVER AND I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         PUT MY
HAND UP JuST (UNCLEAR) AND i GOT BANG. BANG IN THERE. AND I WENT
DOWN TO SAVE MESELF COS l'BERE WAS STILL SHOOTIÑG YOU SEE

## Q: What Are You Feelings Now. 20 Years On 7

OH - VERY BAD.

.THEY WERE MURDERED WEREN'T THEY. LIKE EVERYONE KNOWS IT: AND
I WOULD SAY THE MEN THAT GAVE THE ORDERS FOR TO SHOOT THEY WERE
NEVER BROUGHT UP OR CHARGED OR NOTHING LIKE TEAT

 .NOTHING AT ALL.NO GUILT, NOT GUILTY AND THEY WAS FOUND GUILTY
(?). NONE WAS EVER BROUGHT UP. BUT WHO GAVE THE ORDERS FOR TO
SHOOT THAT'S WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.
                                        I NEVER KNEW THAT....

.THEY WERE ALL MURDERED THEM BOYS....

 . .1 SWEAR TO YOU,
                     I SWEAR TO YOU, GRAVE UP THERE, NUFFIN (?).
THEY NEVER HAD GUNS (WORD UNCLEAR). THEY SAID I WAS A GUNMAN Toe,
SURE. YOU KNOW.
                 I WOULDN'T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE ONE....

   .VERY QUIET, NICE PELLA, VERY GOOD NATURE. HE ALWAYS LET DOWN
FLAYING THE GUITAR...
                                                      -

  .HE HAD A BIG GUITAR AND HE JUST SIT OUT AND THAT'S ALL HE
DONE, JUST PLAY A GUITAR...

THERE WERE NO WEAPONS THAI DAY. NO WEAPONS....

  .THERE WEREN'T A SOLDIER SHOT OR NOTHING LIKE THAT WERE TEERE
? YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. IF THERE HAD OF BEEN WEAPONS THAT DAY,
YOU KNOW RIGHTLY AND I KNOW AND EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THERE'D HAVE
BEEN SOLDIERS DEAD WOULDN'T THERE ? YOU KNOW THEY WERE WIDE OPEN.
WHAT I
       HEARD WHAT THEY WAS DOING WAS STONE THROWING. OK. BUT
TRAT' S ALL I KNOW ABOUT. BUT FOR GUNS - THERE WERE NO GUNS TkT
DAY. NO WAY.
             I
               SWEAR TO YOU.
                              t
                                SWEAR TO GOD. NO GUNS. NOTHING
LIKE THAT.
           I
             DIDNT,
                     I NEVER EVEN SEEN THEM. NO THERE WERE NO
GUNS...

HE WAS GOING HOME TO GET HIS DINNER
                                                      »(19. 412

## Alec Nash

175/1
AND THEN WE WERE GOING HOME, YOU KNOW, ME AND WILLIE. AND I SAYS
"COME ON". AND WE WERE GOiNG TO GO HOME THEN. WE WERE GOING HOME

      .
             .AND THERE WERE TWO YOUNGSTERS ALONG WITH OUR WILLIE. YOU KNOW
AND I WAS MAYBE ABOUT TEN YARDS IN FRONT OF THEM AND THERE WAS
A WEE BARRICADE - I'M TELLING YOU WHAT I
                                                                                                                                                                           REMEMBER - THERE WERE
A WEE BARRICADE JUST AT THE HIGH PLATS AND WE WERE WALKING ACROSS
AND I WAS IN FRONT AND THE NEXT THING I HEARD WAS A FUTT - WAS
THE SHOOTING, THE SHOOTINÓ THEN STARTED. AND I LOOKED ROUND AND

I
    SEEN THE THREE ON THE GROUND - TRE TWO YOUNGSTERS LIKE THAT
THERE AND ONE WAS IN THE MIDDLE. AND I WENT OVER AND I
                                                                                                                                 PUT MY
HAND UP JUST (UNCLEAR) AND I GOT BANG. BANG IN THERE. AND I WENT
DOWN TO SAVE MESELF COS THERE WAS STILL SHOOTING YOU SEE

## S Q: What Are You Feelings Now. 20 Years On 7

OH - VERY BAD.

. .THEY WERE MURDERED WEREN'T THEY. LIKE EVERYONE KNOWS IT. AND
I WOULD SAY THE MEN THAT GAVE THE ORDERS FOR TO SHOOT THEY WERE
NEVER BROUGHT UP OR CHARGED OR NOTHING LIKE THAT

 .NOTHING AT ALL.NO GUILT, NOT GUILTY AND THEY WAS FOUND GUILTY
(7). NONE WAS EVER BROUGHT UP. BUT WHO GAVE THE ORDERS FOR TO
SHOOT THAT'S WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.
                                        I NEVER KNEW THAT....

     .
            .1
                    SWEAR TO YOU,
                                                                               i SWEAR TO YOU, GRAVE UP THERE,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                   NUFFIN (7).
THEY NEVER HAD GUNS (WORD UNCLEAR). THEY SAID I WAS A GUNMAN TOO,
SURE. YOU KNOW.
                                                                  I WOULDN'T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE ONE..

.THEY WERE ALL MURDERED THEM BOYS....

S.

.VERY QUIET, NICE FELLA. VERY GOOD NATURE. HE ALWAYS LET DOWN
PLAYING THE GUITAR...

.HE HAD A BIG GUITAR AND HE JUST SIT OUT AND THAT'S
ALL HE
DONE, JUST PLAY A GUITAR...

THERE WERE NO WEAPONS THAT DAY. NO WEAPONS ....

  .THERE WEREN'T A SOLDIER SHOT OR NOTHING LIKE TRAT WERE THERE
? YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN..
                         IF ThERE RAD 0F BEEN WEAPONS THAT DAY,
YOU KNOW RIGHTLY AND I KNOW AND EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THERE D HAVE
BEEN SOLDIERS DEAD WOULDN'T THERE? YOU KNOW THEY WERE WIDE OPEN.
WHAT I HEARD WHAT THEY WAS DOING WAS STONE THROWING.
                                                        OK. BUT
THAT'S ALL I KNOW ABOUT. BUT FOR GUNS - THERE WERE NO GUNS TIPST
DAY. NO WAY.
              I
                SWEAR TO YOU.
                              I
                                SWEAR TO GOD. NO GUNS. NOTHING
LIKE THAT.
           I
              DIDNT,
                     I NEVER EVEN SEEN THEM. NO THERE WERE NO
GUNS...

RE WAS GOING HOME TO GET HIS DINNER

    .
       . I WAS IN FRONT AND THE OTHER TWO YOUNG FELLAS
                                                                                                                                                                         THEY WERE
                                                                                                                                                                                                            THE
SAME. THEY WERE GOING HOME FOR THEIR DINNER, TOßET THEIR DINNER
AND THAT WAS IT....

*
   -
        .
            . I WAS IN FRONT OF THEM WHEN I HEARD THE SHOOTING AND THAT WAS
IT. AND THEY WENT DOWN AND
                                                                                                              I WENT OVER....

176/I

VERY BITTER...

.1 BLAME THE SOLDIERS, YOU KNO\tWH&T U MEAN. NOT THE ENGLISH
PEOPLE. ITS MEN WHO GAVE DIE ORDERS FOR THAT DAY. FOR TO DO THE
SHOOTING. YOU KNOW WHAT I -MEAN.

Q: WHY DO YOU THINK HE WAS SHOT
NO REASON AT ALL
                  THAT'S THE WAY I FEEL. HE WAS JUST MURDERED.
THAT'S WHAT I WOULD SAY. HE NEVER GOT A CHANCE. 19 ONLY. HE NEVER
GOTACHANCETOLIVE
                                 I:
                                        --

    THERE WAS NO SHOOTING THAT DAY. THE ONLY SHOOTING WAS THE
ARMY.

177/I

WHEN I HEARD THE SHOOTING I TURNED ROUND,
                                          1 WAS QUICK. AND THEN
I SEEN THE THREE BODIES AND
                             I WENT OVER AND THAT'S WHEN IT.. .1
PUT ME ARM UP FOR THEM TO STOP SHOOTING. THEY
                                                     WERE
                                                          STILL
SHOOTING, YOU SEE.
                   I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY BULLETS PASSED ME. BUT
I PUT ME ARM UP (UNCLEAR) STOP SHOOTING (UNCLEAR). I KNEW WILLIE
MAYBE WAS STILL ALIVE. MAYBE DEAD. BECAUSE WHEN I
                                                  PUT ME ARM UP
THAT'S WHEN TO STOP THE SHOOTING AND THAT'S WHEN I GOT IT THEN.
Q: YOU GOT SHOT 7
YES.
     I GOT IT BANG - BANG - BANG. AND THEN I TOOK A DIVE DOWN TO
THE WEE BARRICADE FOR TO SAVE MESELF COS THEY WERE STILL SHOOTING
AT US....

YOU MEAN TO TELL ME IF I HADN'T
                                A GUN IN MY HAND I WOULDN'T HAVE
USED IT 7 PRETTY DODGY. WHAT WOULD YOU DO.

...:HEWAS IN THE MIDDLE OF TWO BODIES LIKE THAT THERE. THAT'S
THE WAY HE WERE...

Q: ARE YOU STILL BITTER 7
OH AYE. ITS NO GOOD SAYING I'M NOT COS4 ARE. NOT AGAINST ENGLISH
PEOPLE OR NOTHING LIKE THAT. JUST SOLDIERS OR TETE BOYS THAT GAVE
THE ORDERS TO DO
                 THE SHOOTING. YOU KNOW.

## Wildtracic

YOU KNOW. THEM BOYS WAS ALL INNOCENT....

. .THEY'D NO GUNS OR NOTHING. THERE WAS NO SHOOTING THAT DAY. THE
ONLY SHOOTING THAT WAS GOING ON WAS ARMY - EVERYQNE KNEW THAT....

  .THEY WERE GOING HOME WHEN THIS HAPPENED. THEYWERE GOING HOME.
DEFINITE - GOD MAY STRIKE ME DEAD. THEY WERE GOING HOME AND
                                                               I
WOULDN'T SAY THAT IN FRONT OF THE CEMETARY. ME AND THE OTHER TWO
YOUNGSTERS ALONG WITH HIM, THEY WERE GOING HOME. THEY WERE GOING
RIGHT HOME

THAT DAY WHAT HAPPENED
                       ? _THE SROOTING STARTED AND TRE WAY
                                                           I
TURNED ROUND LIKE THAT THERE.
                              I
                                WASN'T FROM HERE TO THAT MAN
THERE. AND I RUN OVER CROSS THE STREEt AND THEY WERE JUST ON THE
WEE BARRICADE LYING OUT. AND I PUT ME HAND UP (UNCLEAR) TO STOP
THE SHOOTING AND TO SEE
                         F THERE WAS ANYTHING WE COULD DO FOR
THEM. AND THAT'S WHEN I GOT IT TOO. THAT'S IT -. MAY GOD StRIKE
ME DEAD.
        I CAN'T5P-IGURE IT OUT WHY THEY STARTED SHOOTING THKT LAY
TOO. IT WOULD RAVE BEEN DIFFERENT IF IT HAD BEEN GUNS OR GUNMEN
OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, SHOOTING. ITS ALRIGRT. BUT THEY DIDN'T
GUNS THAT DAY. NOTHING....

.THAT DAY I FEEL TERRIBLE BITTER, TERRIBLE BITTER.
                                                  -.

  YOU KNOW WHEN IT GETS MENTIONED TO ME THEN IT. COMES BACK IN
MY BRAIN AGAIN YOU KNOW. ABOUT TRAT DAY. IT WAS (UNCLEAR) ABOUT
THE SHOOTING....

   .WELL
          I DIDN'T SEE HIM GO DOWN BUT WHEN
                                                 I LOOKED OVER THE
SHOOTING THAT WAS GOING ON WAS
                                   sTILL
                                         GOING ON AND
                                                         I RUN OVER
THEN...

.ME WAS MURDERED SURE TO GOD.

        ...OH ITS DESPERATE WASTED. HE WAS WASTED. HE WAS DESPERATE. HE'D
.
        HAVE BEEN RUNNING ABOUT NOW WOULDN'T HE
                                                    ?
                                                      HE WAS DOING GRAND
        WASN'T HE.

    IT WAS WASTED
                  HIS
                       LIFE,
                             DEFINITE.
                                       AYE- IT WAS
                                                   WASTED,
MURDERED, JUST WASTED.

(175/1)WE WERE GOING HOME, YOU KNOW, ME AND WILLIE (175/i)HE WAS GOING HOME TO GET HIS DiNNER
(175/1) AND THERE WERE TWO YOUNGSTERS ALONG WITH OUR WILLIE. YOU
KNOW AND I WAS MAYBE ABOUT TEN YARDS iN FRONT OF THEM
(175/i). - .1 WAS IN FRONT AND THE OTHER TWO YOUNG PELLAS THEY WERE
THE SAME. THEY WERE GOING HOME FOR THEIR DINNER, TO GET THEIR
DINNER AND THAT WAS LT....

(115/1)AND I WAS IN FRONT AND THE NEXT THING I HEARD WAS A FUfl -
WAS THE SHOOTING, THE SHOOTING THEN STARTED. AND r LOOKED ROUND
AND I SEEN THE THREE ON THE GROUND - THE TWO YOUNGSTERS LIKE THAT
THERE AND ONE WAS IN THE MiDDLE

(177fl)... -HE WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF TWO BODIES LIKE THAT THERE.
THAT'S THE WAY HE WERE.

(175/I).. .THEY WERE MURDERED WEREN'T THEY, LIKE EVERYONE KNOWS
Fr....

(175/1) THEY WERE ALL MURDERED TEEM BOYS....

(175/i) THERE WEREN'T A SOLDIER SHOT OR NOTHING LIKE THAT WERE
THERE 7 YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. IF THERE HAD OF BEEN WEAPONS THAT
DAY. YOU KNOW RIGHTLY AND I KNOW AND EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THERE'D
HAVE BEEN SOLDIERS DEAD WOULDN'T THERE 7 YOU KNOW THEY WERE WIDE
OPEN. WHAT I HEARD WHAT THEY WAS DOING WAS STONE THROWING, OK.
BUT TRAT'S ALL I KNOW ABOUT. BUT FOR GUNS...

(176/1)Q: WRY DO YOU THINK HE WAS SHOT ?
NO REASON AT ALL. TRAT'S TRE WAY
                                  i.
                                   FEEL. HE WAS JUST MURDERED.
THAT'S WHAT I WOULD SAY. HE NEVER GOT A CHANCE. 19 ONLY. HE NEVER
GOT A CHANCE TO LIVE

(WIT) YOU KNOW THEM BOYS WAS ALL INNOCENT.

(WiT).. .THEY'D NO GUNS OR NOTHING.

(W/T). . .THEY WERE GOING HOME WHEN THIS HAPPENED. THEY WERE GOING
HOME. DEFINITE - GOD MAY STRIKE ME DEAD. THEY WERE GOING HOME

(WIT)I CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT WHY THEY STARTED SHOOTING THAT DAY
TOO. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT IF IT HAD BEEN GUNS OR GUNMEN
OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, SHOOTING. ITS ALRIGHT. BUT THEY DIDN'T
GUNS THAT DAY. NOTHING.

(W/T).. TRAT DAY I FEEL TERRIBLE BITTER, TERRIBLE BITTER...

(WIT)... .11E WAS MURDERED SURE TO GOD....

(WIT). . .0E ITS DESPERATE WASTED. HE WAS WASTED. HE WAS DESPERATE.

HE'D HAVE BEEN RUNNING ABOUT NOW WOULDN'T HE? RE WAS DOING GRAND
WASN'T HE....

(WIT)... .IT WAS WASTED HIS LIFE, DEFINITE. AYE IT WAS WASTED.

MURDERED, JUST WASTED.

-

## Out Of Vtsion

(175/i)HE WAS GOING HOME TO GET HIS
                                    DINNER
                                                (17571) AND THERE
WERE TWO YOUNGSTERS ALONG WITH OUR WILLIE. YOU KNOW...

## In Vision

(175/i)AND I WAS IN FRONT AND THE NEXT THING I BEARD WAS A FUTT -
WAS THE SHOOTING. THE SHOOTING THEN STARTED. AND
                                                   I LOOKED ROUND
AND I SEEN THE ThREE ON THE GROUND - THE Two YOUNGSTERS LIKE THAT
THERE AND ONE WAS IN THE MIDDLE

## Out 0F Vision

LIKE EVERYONE KNOWS
.(W/T) YOU KNOW THEM
GOING HOME WHEN THIS
- GOD MAY STRIKE ME

(175/i).. .THEY WERE MURDERED WEREN'T THEY.
IT... .(W/T). ..THEY'D NO GUNSOR NOTHING..
BOYS WAS ALL INNOCENT... .(W/T). . .THEY WERE
HAPPENED. THEY WERE GOING HOME. DEFINITE
DEAD. THEY WERE GOING HOME.:.

## S ) In Vision

(176/1)0: \HY DO YOU THINK HE WAS SHOT t
NO REASON AT ALL. THAT'S THE WAY I FEEL. HE WAS JUST MURDERED.
THAT'S WHAT I WOULD SAY. HE NEVER GOT A CHANCE. 19 ONLY. HE NEVER
GOT A CHANCE TO LIVE

## Out Of Vision

(WIT).. .THAT
                 DAY
                        I
                             FEEL
                                     TERRIBLE
                                                  BITTER,
                                                             TERRIBLE
BITTER..jW/T)....IT WAS WASTED HIS LIFE. DEFINITE. AYE IT WAS
WASTED. MURDERED, JUST WASTED.

## S

                 73)
Father of Willie Nash, boy shot next to him, and of Charlie
Nash, World Championship contender boxer. Family is non
political and non violent, with only one ever having been in
prison, and that the eldest brother who was lifted after B.S.
because his brother had been killed on S.S., although checking
actu&L charge with him. (Rave you seen him - Paddy Mash?)
ElderLy man, much affected by remembering and telling it again.

     UITNESS
             :
               Willie Nash
sThirdfl
               Own shooting
     NUT tJIDGERY

## Story -J

Walking by the barricade with Willie on way home for dinner.
Everyt1-tin
           was over they thought, been Little hit. of trouble at
bottom end of William Street, but fizzling out.

Suddenly people were running towards them, the looked up
Roasville Street, shots rang out and Willie and two other boys
behind hirn, fell to the ground.

No guns, no bombs, not even stoné throwing.

He turned and half bent over Willie) half waving to say stop

        "My boy is hit", shooting went on. He was hit in left
forearm and Left stomach.

Slumped against the barricade, noise and firing.

## Pshooting

Large Para officer arrived, large revolver thrust in his face.
ttThree more dead here". His
                            age saved him from being shot, he
thinks.

Saw soldiers carry/drag the three bodies to the pig which had
drawn up and throw them in. Two Soldiers held them one on each
side by the leg and hand/wrist when carrying.

Soldier told Alec. there was first aid over in Joseph Place, and
left him Lying bleeding.
                                                         -
                                                           -

He was taken up to hospital by car.

Watch and ring missing when got Willie's things hack.

EN O S

1eV'e.
               Q
                      now)
                            ** QOT TRANSCRIPT Q? HÏ.M FOR. W)

the Faculty of Philosophy at Colerain University, and time a Catholic Priest. Very, very effective. witness.

Deaz of at that WITNESS

 BARRICADE
 CLZ1S?&D& P&RK events
  Mctthtttney
  State of mind of Paras
  Ring arrested and ill-treated
WITNESS

WIDC SR?

STOV(
With Dennis Barker at gable end of GLnfada Park by what he describes as smaLl, foot high, barrîe.ad. Not dressed as priest.

Saracens etc. came in, swung round into position. Small group
of youths stoneing them from just. behind the barricada, perhaps
50 people stood around there altogether. Stones couLd not
possibly have avett reached the soLdiers
                                        who came out and
aiming.

Firing basan, thouflt it cisc rubbor bullota.
No gunman, or bombers on that barricade and had clear view of
Lt.

Convinced that soldier came out of pig, dotrn, fired, hit
KalLy.Snapshot in my mind.

One youth (probably Kelly) want down clutching his stottach, and
he and Bradley fetched him, in to the gable end, reaLised it was
not rubber -bullets but been shot. Dennis gave him the last
tites.

I looked round the gable end and saw soldiers aiming
                                                     . Two,
porhipq thvo bod.ic.o oa
                                   siuu4
                                       ,1.1.-%'
                                                 .iva.
them with his hand up as though sayiúg döntt fire &ny mote.
&ash I think. He was hit then.
                              Soldiers aiming and firing,
bullet hit above me
                     s t pulled back in. TWO othar bodies there
and not get out so Dennis
                          shouted the last rites
                                                  to them.

Calmed crowd of 20/30 people but all terrified as firing went
on.

Three people broke f roca crowd and ran across Glenf ada, shot as
they were running, first title knew soldiers were in the G.Park
area. too. Not been firing round cornee (as SOLDIER CLktttTED to
Widgety), in fact the only one fo ducked around to look was
we.

## O'Keefe Cont. P&Ge Two

Boy crawling for R. flats entrance and safety from the barricade. Shot. t4ctihinney.

Soldiers came round and surrounded and arrested us.

Soldiers in a very exc.ited state,
                                   arrested and put against
wall. Very worried, if people had run then,
                                              been shot, no doubt
about it.

&rrest
       ;
         rough, very. Run gauntlet. Kicked and beaten by ScttttF
for not being dressed as priest. Arbitrary charging, and
beating and threats went on for .hours. Had
                                             to stand with hands
holding barbs ort barbed wire. Çharge& with throwing stones.

 pecial Branch obviously expected to
                                     have ¿ number of IRA inert,
and found they had none.

NO GUNS ETC. BEItG USED OR ON ANY OF THE PEOPLE t SAW BEtNO
SHOT, OR SAW S00L1 AFTER. TOT EAVE
                                  BEEN REMOVED, SHOOTING WAS
TOO FIERCE.

Saw soLdier on his knee by Keils Walk aim and fire the first

sito t.

## End S

MtCKEY E?2TGLISE (early 5O's)
 tephanit's f athec, Sinn Fein supporter although not meaiber at
present. Two sous killed - ene in accident with army vehicle,
the other while on active
                            service.

WITNESS
          Me.Guigatt
ior WIDGERY

## Story

Ran across R. St waste ground, with saraceas
                                             coining up behthd
them, went through arch between blocks 2. and 3 into top
                                                        end of

Joseph Place.
                              -
Stood behind the fiats by phone box at E.. Street encI.Shoottng

had started as we went through the arch.
krmy dismounted by Gienfada Park in a line.Shootittg went on,

and Mickey Bridge was brought through to
                                         flat in Joseph Place.

We in by sable end now back of block i of R. flats.
Carried Bridge in to flat in Joseph Plaça and we went in too,

rushed in, and down for cover because firing stilt going
ou.tooking out of the window, see MeGuigan come out with white
hankfe,
        head caved in f ro
                           back. Girl behind him seemed likely
to follow but he stopped her just beEcre he stepped out and got

shot.

Girl began to do war dance. Got her in to Etat too. Fear. ENDS

TERRY O'I(EEFE (50 ish now)
** GOT TRANSCRIPT OF HIM FOR YOU
Dean of the Faculty of Philosophy at Coleraine University, and at that time a Catholic Priest. Very, very effettive witness.

WITNESS
BARRICADE
GLENFADA PARK events
Mct ihinney
State cE mind
of Paras
Being arrested and ill-treated
WIDGERY WITNESS

STORY
  With Dennis Barker at gable end of G].enfada Park by what he
  describes as smalL, foot highs barricade. Not dressed as
  priest.

Saracens etc. came in, swung round into position. Small group
of youths stoneing them frOr
                             just behind the barricade, perhaps
50 people stood around there altogether. Stones could not
possibly have even reached the soldiers, who came out and
aiming.

Firing began, thought it was rubber bullets.

No gunmen, or bombers on that barricade and had clear view of
it.

Convinced that soLdier came out of pig, down,
                                              fired, hit
Kelly.Snapshot in my mind.

One youth (probably Kelly) went down clutching his stomach, and
he and Bradley fetched him in to the gable end, realised it was
not rubber bullets but been shot. Dennis gave him the last
rites.

t looked round the gable end and saw soldiers aiming . Two,
perhaps thcee bodies on barricade, and older man over one of
them with his hand up as though saying don't fire any more.
Nash I think. He was hit then. Soldiers aiming and firing,
bullet hit above me as I pulled hack in. TWO other bodies there
and not get out so Dennis shouted the last rites
                                                   to theni.

Calmed crowd of 20/30 people but all terrified as firing went
on.

Three people broke from crowd and ran across Glenfada, shot as
they were running, first time icnew soldiers were in the G.Park
area too, Not been firing round corner (as SOLDIER CLAIMED to
Widgery), in
             fact the only one who ducked around to look was

tue.

## O'Keefe Cont. Page Two

hoy crawling for R. Fiats entrance and safety from the barricade. Shot. McI].hinney.

Soldiers came round and surrounded and arrested us.

Soldiers in a very excited state, arrested and put against wall. Very worried, if people had run then, been shot, no doubt about it.

arrest
         rough, very. Run gauntlet. Kicked and beaten by Sowig&F
for not being dressed as priest. &rbitrary charging, and
beating and threats went on for hours. Had to stand with hands
holding barbs on barbed wire.T Charged with throwing stones.

Special Branch obviously expected to have a number of IRA men,
and found they had none.

NO GUNS ETC. BEING USE!) OR ON ANY OF THE PEOPLE L SAW BEING
SHOT, OR SAR SOON AFTER. NOT HAVE BEEN REMOVED, SHOOTING WAS
TOO FIERCE.

Saw soldier on his knee by Keils Walk aim and fire the first
shot.

## Ends

MICKEY ENGLtSII (early 50's)
Stephanie's father, Sinn Fein supporter although not member at
present. Two sons killed --one in accident with army vehicle,
the other while on active service.

WITNESS
          McGuigan
NOT WIDGERY

## Story -

Ran across R. St waste ground, with saracens coming up behind
them, went through arch between blocks
                                       2 and 3 into top end of
Joseph Place.
Stood behind the flats by phone box at R. Street end.Shooting
had started as we wont through the arch.
Army dismounted by Clenfada Park in a line.Shooting went on,
and Mickey Bridge was brought through to flat in Joseph Place.
We in by gable end now back ai block i of R. flats.
Carried Bridge in to flat in Joseph Place and we went in too,
rushed in, and down for cover because firing still going
on.Looking out of the window,
                              see McGuigan come out with white
hankie, head caved in from back. Girl behind him seamed likely
to follow but he stopped her just before he stepped out and got
shot.

Girl began to do war dance. Got her in to flat too. Fear. ENDS
                                                        fr119 422

Terry Terry O'Keef e.

Today is June 6th.

I joined the Staff of the University of Ulster3 the Mew

University ot Ulsterr. in
                          ,
                            when it opened in 196S.
                                                      Prior to

that I had been a Post_graduate in Peris.
                                           So I
                                                 r-jved in

October to take a post in Philosophy.
                                       By the tirite of Bloody
Sunday I was a lecturer in Philosophy and Dean othe facu1ty
or the School of Humanjtjez.1 was alsoat that time a Roman
Catholic Priest so I there. - .1973 hut et that time I would
have been a Priest.
                     It is obviously hard to reconstruct
                                                           the
build up of the anti- internment
                                  movernent
                                            Eut certainly the
calling of that anti-internment march brought out a number of
people, including a group ct students from the. Un5versitY
Civil Rghta group who he'l declared their intentior at coing
over to Derry to participate in the march.
                                            Several staff went
over with them ,
                 et that time the feeling about
                                                 nternmet,
well, let me not do
                    into thc polItics. of internment at the
time, just stick to the tact&. A number of us founc oUrSel\'es
towards the bottom of William Street moving up towards
t. corner where e meeting had been callecL

So you are coming down William Street, here?

Sorry, R.
           street
                     Sc the large crowd was moving slowly up
towards the platform e
                             corner and there was or there
seemed to be behind
                          Y.OLrí-
                                  the tisuel stone throwing at

the toot of William Street, t..rhich was every common occurence

with crowds, Two of us went hack to make sure the students
were also moving up towerda the thing end weren't going to be
taucht at the foot of William Street and em

Two lecturers?

Yes, myself end - another- person - not particularly, to to
just to make sure everybody had
                                 ,
                                   had, cos we had been had er
tos 'e had been you know in a group.

Were you dressed es a Priest?

## No,

   no t had em black.
                      -
                       .
                        -
                          not have been really recognised.
                                                             At
that stage it was clear that there
                                   was going to be troubled at
the toot et William Street, md that the army berrcade there
was being stoned by twenty, thirty, youths in e relatively
Standard procedure for I3erry
                             et the time..

And that was here or-?

No.. Little j..
               -
                 Street.

So you turned up there you could see that going?

## P

'ich, and there was a smell rubble, barricade, Woodgery
described a
              a barricade, and it really wasn't a barricade,
maybe e smell, toot high, stones across.
                                             My. memdy, the one I
was partioulerl-, ,.,.v-jeW of is that one there, number six.
As I reached, the crowd maybe forty, fifty people, just eround
between the flats and the erit would be this bui1din
                                                           ,
                                                             the
81
       actualLy saw the arm\- personnel carriers arrive, and
Soldiers sPilling out.

And they?

They were driving
                  ,
                    drove through here end I. think they came,

certainly they were swinging in here and stoppir
                                                  end people
getting out and aiming.
                         And there were a small crowd of
youths around about here,
                           most people Were treating up
Roswell Street, small crowd cf youths stoning them,.. far
away so Would have been extremely difficult tar them to have
hit anybody, but it was just the usual.
                                                      1119 424

Where would you have been?

Just about there.

Just behind the barricade? er just about there

Just behind the barricade.
                            You must have been behind the
youths?

Yes, yes, I meen they were just in front cf us.
                                                 Myself end

'1-Priest Dennis Sradley.
                           And there were flats and I must
 confess I thought it was rubber bullets,, and one youth went
 down just there clutching his stomach and a number of us went
 over end brought him back to the gable end cf the wall and to
 my horror I realised he had been shot coz when we turned him
 over the, he was dying.
                             So Dents gave hirn the last rights end
 these are the numbers of peopLe that died?

Yes.

And I looked across and there was another body lying there, an

older man,
            I think it was Nash!
                                  I can't rementbqr the name, an
uncle came out.
                  We were in behind the gable end of the wall
and I began to realize whet was happening, end looked round
and looked down that way and there was soldiers interspersed

everywhere. w(th and they were obviously aiming and f iring and
in tact a bullet chipped very high up
                                        on the gable end.

They were firing at you?

May be t don't know.
                      Dennis and I tried to calm the crowd
behind that gable end there on the grounds there
                                                  was a big
panic, number at young people, some women, great panic and
P'ecfl e
        'ere tr>-tng,
                                                              19' 425

saying we should run across, SL.
                                -
                                 . .don't move, nothing will

happen if you Just remain cairn, and the soldiers come and you
Just Dut your hands up and so
                              .
-And my memory is three peopLe broke
                                     and started te run and
was shot end Gi Perk in there.
                                Yeb, they were shot es they

were running.
               Now I couLdntt see what was happening round
here but I could see somebody dying at the foot of Roswell
Street flats here.
                     Crawling for the entrance and he-was shot.
I would have to Look back at my evidence to remember how many
people I saw.., em, we persuaded the rest cf the crowd not to
move, so eventually the soldìers cerne round that way and that

way.
      And er in a highly excIted state and er surrounded us,
put us up against the wail.
                                                            -

## - Excited In What?

Weil, adrennalin.
                   Well usually with adrennalin running high.
That's the moment
                   which I was very worried i-r people started
to run or panic they would actually be shot.
                                               Like the three
tellers.

And these were Faras?

Veh, full carnet lege.
                        We were all herded first of all up
against the wall, sort. -physical brutality. We were marched
down, end lined up. .1 think it might have been one of these
buildings here. .8 femous photograph of ¡ne up against the wall
of me which
               peered in Paris Match - my wjte to he spotted it
- . - . - and we were eventually herded into a lorry at somewhere
down here.
             Fair amount of physical brutality and taken to
Fort George.
               Where we were
                                      trapped, irwited to run down
a line, double line at paratr-opers as large as sticks
in
           and then I was held for

You were beaten as you went down that?
                                        Twenty or thirty of
you -
                                                         1419' 428.

I suppose in the lorry there was one women end about
twentytjv, thirty peooLc. jncludjn_Fe.rcus Macateir, Ernie's
son, he was. . another young boy about eleven or twelve.

Everybody got the seme. t'et ment
                                 -

Veh,
     I don't know about the woman.
                                        One's emotions at these
times are very strange.
                            She kept abusing the Daretroopers,
shrieking about her and so cn, end the paratrooper who had
herded us in and beaten us into the corner of the, up against
the, one piled on top of the other, in the lorry, said, told
her to shut up, and he'd kick, her teeth in.
                                                  So I don't think
he hit her so everytjryie she said anything he hit us
                                                          ,
                                                            would
she not shut up.
                    These unworthy feljngs.
                                                 That blOQQdY
woman.
         She's gonne get
                              killeth
                                        Because he was obviously3
he had to take it cut or- someone.
                                       So we were held,
                                                          r suppose
I was released at 11 o'cLock., half east eleven at night.
                                                                 We
were held in - I mean,
                          I witnessed a great deal ol' brutality
in Fort George about which I did make abt of complaints and I
was officiaily charged, the
                               -
                                  .
                                    by I can't name the man, I'm
not sure, he was a Lance Corporal, Liverpodi. Irish,

Styles?

No, his name was
                          Lance Corporal Sot.rna,,F
                                                 I don't know
if you've traced him?

We'll tell you about him when we've finished.

Is that so?
             We11 Lance Corporal 5o&oiF,
                                         what happened was

after a long period in which we'd been interviewed by the RUG
Special Branch in which
                         they felt that they had, they were
bound to have picked up knoun IRA men, and. so they were
sorting them out, and because when J was interviewed they said
what's your name, and I said O'Keete, and he said, oh yeh,
Gerry OQkeefe from Anderson's Town
                                   ,
                                     I said Nc Terry O'Keefe

-
                                                                         t-419427.

I said, Ports George is. e quite and residential bourgoise
                                                           - - SO

he said have you always lived in Forts George?

I said no.

East Belfast.

Bloomfield which is not the t'in from protestent East Belfast.

So he said what's your name.

I said Terrence,

me. .1 haven't
               .
                 got an Irish spelling tom)' second name.
                                                                So

he told me that we weren't speaking Irish in this place
                                                        ,
                                                          I

speak English,
                . ,.Micheel.. So he said what's your occupation,

so I said Roman Catholic Priest.
                                  and Lecturer in Philosophy,

.on the f orm
                So it became fairly clear' to the RUC that

## Fr

noone, that,
             I don't think they'd picked anyone up, in that
group, but obviously the . - movement were supposed tp get what
they would have thought of us es activists.

The pincer movement.

Weli
      I mean they came up and around and around and mean some
of the deaths in there were causzd by the soldiers driving in
at the back of cur, round the sides of us
                                            ,
                                              not sure how they
came through,
              003
                   I couldn't see, that's where Eddie Davey
would have been.
                   And the and people cQming straight through.
fly memory is of., not on the spot, but my memory is the
soldiers started to coirte round the_other side
                                                 o
                                                     the flats;.
And eventually em I mean the charging was fairly crudely done
in that soldiers were ordered by their officers .to take five
people and charge them you know.
                                    With stone throwing.
Eventually there was myseit_, eddie Macateir, and this younQ
feller left.
               And I susoect that somebody
                                             had, sorne WC n'an,
had identifisd us and seid that, look, for Sod's sake, don't
charge them.

Macatejr?

Fetgus..
           Sorry.
                     So, eventually en officer
                                                     .
                                                      .
                                                         came in and said
who's taking those men?
                                nd, better shift. .saying.. well,
said to Sotsi
               F, ohargr thert.
                                     So Sowa F came over to me - and
said, you were throwing 3tones
                                       weren't you?
                                                         t said, t sai.d,
                                                                    M19 '428

I mean that was after a number of hours, you don' t say, too
much. .so he kicked me in thegroin,
                                     nd said, you were
throwing stenes.
                  Started to kick me in the grotn.
                                                     I seid
don't do that.
                I don't throw stones..
                                       Priests.
                                                 And that
Stopped him for a bit &ifld that seemed to_annoy him because he
said you should be wearing your t'o collar, you know, you

        be here if you were wearing your collar.
                                                   So he
eventually charged me with stone throwing.

## Wouldn'T

Were you forensically tsted?

No no.
        t don't think anybody was forensically - well nobody I
saw being processed during the 12 hours had any forensic
tests, Maybe some people were taken
                                      away..
                                              So once I was
released at about 11
                      - 12 o'al.ock at night, so I went to my
colleagues, who lived in Derry,
                                  i wasn't all that--badly
bruised
          very badly,
                       I had to go to the doctor the next day,
so the medical evidence if you like got they
                                                - . ill treatment,
which I used, then subsequently.
                                    Em the RUC were
extraordinarily scared.
                          I wa
                                 talking to a sergeant who I
think, I becan to get picked Iut as a Priest, so people.. .they
were very worried about: t-he.t had happened. You know they said-
these guys will go and we have to police the place-.
                                                        As the
news kept filtering back with more deaths, ab that seage may
be five or six people thought dead, people saying more,
numbers were building up, the names were beginning to get
through.
          So
               the pollee certainly were very

Is this when you were asked to stay in....?

Yeh, >'eh.
             And eventually the poljce,once
                                                 . . .out. cos the
police actually stopped the soldiers hitting guys, you know,
so police actuafly intervened, saying excuse me, he's in
Police custody, don't
                          Lay a hand on him so

Well the police were beginning to get I think very, tension, they were certainly thinking of the future end al&o I think doing their duty.

## Were The Paras Still Running C'N Eleat Ion Or Was Lt.

There was another unit rny. i think they were
                                               nGreen
berets, certainly weren't pares.
                                 They were sharing the guard
duties more or less there.
                           They would have been the people
who had us sort at lined up against the barbed wire and soçt
at holding the barbed wire.
                              Cold, delincuents,Tdeliberate.
So but the paras would come in and out end just. -
                                                 abusive
                                                          of
people and go out again.
                         Sofl at haggle abuse. - So that's

## Whet Of Prisoners And Cf Othr Soldiers?

No of prisoners.
                  I mean, just particularly young 12-13 year
olds sort cf battered them about cas they were very cheeky you
know the young hard wee Derry brought up for the last five
years to
         .

## And This Is All In What

A very large room, we were
                            the room was, in some pieces it
had barbed wire I think,
                        we were supposed to çrp anta these,
hit on the knuckles
                    if you weren't holding the barbed wire..

## Mold Betwee& The Barbs

Supposed to hold it
                    on The tarbs
                                 .
                                   Certain-tmount cf I assume
that was both
              casuel 5rutaiity and also... psycho trgica1,
                                                       I don' t
believe People do thr& act those things up casually - .1 think
they got designed arid ttucceeds in scaring the
                                              -
                                               rrakirtg them
much more
          susceptibla to talk-
                                .-nd of course from 2-3 a' clock
we didn't have
                        t.- drInk or eat except one cup of tee
right through tc' 12
                             w jt'.
                                     a jong per tod of cold
ond. eventually
                 rount in ±Laters
                                                         V' 19 430

one of the,.. if it was a green jacket, one of the green jackets had sorne beaters brought in but er sort of tilted overhead, these tilted overhead, these young fellers standing very close just used it as e
.

That's all in my statement SO
I suppose what Widgery took o-f that, ignored all that stuff about brutality, quite rightly I think it wasn't e matter for the original enquiry what happened after the shootings, about how we were held.

Lt you .;carefully, yo will find my evidence is used to disprove what was I think a sort of Sn

account, which certainly that a
                                - . - photographer end others,
namely that as crowds scrambled over a barricade and were
running back to safety up tç- F.
                               -
                                -
                                  Corner, they were being shot

down.
       That was
                  . - that was nne story about Bloody Sunday,
which you know gained a certain creedance in Gerry at the
time.

You really don't think that happened?

No,
     I mean that wasn't what t
                                           I said what I saw, under
oath, and what I sew was people, certainly unarmed people
being shot in the front.
                               Unarmed in the sense that some
                                                                     C'I
them shot when they had the 3tcnes, in the act of throwing
stones and others were shot when on the ground.
                                                           And others

were shot when running away.
                              But Wjdgery used çy evidence to

discount the story of f leeig crowds being shot down from the
back of the barricade.
                       Sut I think it you. . .declined to take

my evidence that there t.as oertainly no guns in of those
people theretLthat I saw killed none of those were armed.
Neither with guns, there were no guns being picked up from the
ground, as I saw certainly that who got there killed and I was

certainly very clear in my own mind that they were unarmed.
                                                             r
think that comes out, my evidence doesn't come out as strongly

in Widgery on that point as on the.. if you read my status as
Dean of the faculty was used by Wtdgery to say there is On!

QOod witness nere, who clearly discounts thi.I don't know

it you remember that?
                                                      fr119 431

No, there' s yourself and two scottish policemen, who were up here.

Senior policemen who were observIng, ar!d you were used to knock down a chap called Chaplin, and Grmoldi..

Grimoldi, yeh.

It's interesting.

The mediceI reports all of these boys
-

were shot in the front,
                        I th nk was the key thing;
                                                     But the
forensic
          did actually 1mn three of them that they were
either, had been In contact 4th firearms or had been within
twelve yards..

There were two stories c'ne. wS they were cent eineted by the
soldiers.
            I ha'e no $ea lt that is f orensioliy possible.
mean all I will say
                          i -don't know if Dennts Bradley will
say the same,
               I certninly fron that point there, looking at
young fallar White H-tat was killed first and others,
                                                          I did not
see anybody with anything remotely resembling a weapon.
                                                              Nor
in the crowd that were there and later broke did I see
anybody carrying anything that looked like e weapon, Not, I
mean, that's all I can say, and

Cari we just take you through
                               n a bit more. .
                                               As you were about
here, when you turned and sew the pigs.

I suppose as I sew the pigs I began to quicken my pace.
Because, it had actually become quite serious,
                                                and also it
became clear that the trouble was building up, At that time
trouble built up gradually.

Did you see three and fcur lorries and pig?

Now my memory now, 1
                     ''1 i'ieed to cc' back to my statement.
                                                          My
memory is certainly two if not three dris'inc in tst and
Swinging and people s-iltjng out
                                 nd could easily. get into
their knee,
             The first shot i heard was hit.
                                                        1119' 432

So you were actually looking back and watching.

Veh -
And where did they go?

-
=

## Well

     one,
           ¡ny memory is that one, it you're looking down the
Street, mv memory is one stopped around here and there was one
moved out, I'm not sure whether it didn't
                                                 move out of my. - .and
I thought one around here. So my memory around three, not in a
line, but in e slightl" irregular formation.

One went to p.
              -
                  Row, crie went into the rrdddle of the court
yard entrance and one.

Yeh, I wouldn't have bee-n
                           -t,je to see that
                                               My memory is
certainly tuo and perhaps three round there, soldiers down on
one knee

And as the soldiers came out they definitely went straight
down?

That, certainly,
                 es I
                       ay I thought the lirst shot which hít_
the White,
             assumed ç;es a rubber bullet.
                                            I wouldn't
                                                          never
having been
            .
             -
                I woultin' t know the difference between e
rubber bullet anti. .1 gather that
                                  the sounds are different, so
I 'd assumed thè feller
                          dbeen hit
                                       n the
                                              1:oach with a
rubber bullet.

And that detinitel»
                         fr-nm thc'-3oldjers.
                                                 --

Soldiers, kneeling
                   ori
                          kra -lawn there. -

At the end of
              each
                      Ad
                           t this point -you yare just behind
the barricade?
                                        -
                                                        p119' 433

I was just on that corner there really, there was Qennis, myself, twenty, thjrty ji wasn't a zort of gathered group at that stage.

There were p-t-ople who; it was clear there was trouble brewing and indeed you heard the pics revving end so so people were sort of beginning to moVe you know and get out cit the
48Y.

A group of youths there throwing stones No nail bombs. Nc guns.

I didn;'t see any nail bombs nor did I hear any explosions
which might have been other t.han shots.
                                         And i-to one could have
got over to there to have picked a gun up or
                                               neil bomb,
because Dennis Br-edley end _I looked over and certainly two
people dying or maybe death
                             The older man wns

Prom this first fusi Lage

'(eh, Dennis arid I thought our f tnt thought ''zs to go out and
give last rights and it became oler, that, that's when I
looked round you know 1nd again you just get a little picture
of soldiers, kneel ing pc's1t4on
                                 tiring.

So you're on this corner)
                          1:r,e pigs arrive, yc', tf-ten you'r
vision goes to the two as they ea down.

No, one teller went down and was carried over by a couple of
tellers but Dennis and T went to him it was clear, clear he
was death
           Saping. -
                    the stomach.

You don't know who that:
                           s?

No, idea.
           It must. h-as bean at that aree the
                                               F rst ta have
been shot.

A young boy?
                                                     r119 434

Looked about 17, lB.
                      16
                           White teeshirt, and probably jeans.

He was carried just in behind the wall.
                                         We realid he was
deed we looked across end we s.aw another tellar down and an
older man who had I think must have run across on. .and he was
actually down behind this
                           little group crí thinc, halt lying
on the young fallar- and iwth one hand in the airs end there
were certainly bullets striking him - that was the moment at
which you couldn't actually
                            go out.
                                     Dennis Bredly gave
absolution from a distance.
                             He said a prayer towards him.

One here....

An older man.

The father

There was one teller- crawling or dragging himself along the
bottom of the flats there. LooMed as if t'e was trying to get
into the entrence.

He was crawling away?

yeh he would have been tryingto crawl intothe1,,I think it
was a door...

And anyone here?

I didn't.., my attention 'es_acrr)ss iustthere and really then
Dennis and I saw this some sort
                                 t a duty to... try to keep
people from either running out that way or running away
because it became
                   clear thot
                               this was a mior.
                                                  verY
dangerous -

And that barricade, liter1ly beincj hit by a fusiltge Wo I mean again I think it ws you could hear 5hots.

OiflQ
in, it wasn't sort of repeated fjríng, but I, there as a crackle of firing, which gave tre impression of reLátively continuos tiring.

So you were behind here, there's 20 or 30 peonle, eventually cairn but three break and you watch es they Ych, they were actual1y just -tell.

I don't know who shot

them
       I think they ntey have been shot by scLdiersoming
around this way.
                  Or coming through here,
                                             I don't know hou
they were got and the soldiers may have corne in through

there. .
         But they were certainly they went down
                                                            TNey broke

from our.. - - group you know
                                Runninc.
                                           .satety thêre,

presumably.

ALI three?

As ter as t know.
                   At that: %ta' you
                                       uddsnlv hegen to se'

soldiers appearing i-ounct here
                                 nd here.
                                            After that you didnT t
see anything.
                                                     -

So you didn' t whet happened to

The bodies? No.
                 But again memory fleeting memo'-- isthat they
didn't seem to he carrying anything

They had been in your group anywey.
                                     They certainly hadn't

been. - . f irinc or anything?

No in tact the only person who ducked at was me
                                                  I could

certainly, on oath I did say,
                              I I mean there was -certainly
noone firing from that corner or from what was described as
the barricade.
                Nobody.

Your evidence was bestc1y distoun.ted then bus& these
three if not tour were not labelled
                                 .... one was ).abelled and
three probable.
               And then the acidiers arrived and you were
really tearful that it anybody moved the wrong way. .?

At that stage they símply cerne round,
                                       guns on port and they

## Pwere,

      the sergeant shriekin
                             you know against th
                                                  wall, so at
that stage you really didn' t see anything vert' much very
coherent after that beoeuse they would sort of rush you down
to the gable well,

Hands on your heads....?
                               -

Yet-c,
        vein..

And like swearing and ebus&.
                              Kicking anci. - .-did. you. .was it a
mixture Of tear and adrenrialjr?

I presume that soldiers çt,
                            fl
                                  it' s the S'nday Times people
who talked to me. aft e.r;«!%rda, they said that. whet" s hIs name
who ordered the paras irv'
                                                --
                                                       -
                                                           -

Er, Ford
          Wilt orth
                    For-d
                        WtEts.

Ford was in behind the barricade?
                                   He was jumping up and down
shaking, get them paras
                           t them..
                                     Sunday Times down there
were very frightened.
                                                          -

Were they there?

No no they were in hhind thc srrny, barrtoadc-
                                             in-îde
                                                      at
least I think that's what they
                             to)d tne.
                                      So they sai
                                                   everybody
Was very hopped up
                  YOU know, I preurn; the
                                          o3d5ers move thto
a sort of killing mood, thet you sort of got
                                              oet beyond
Something.

I presume I presume that the intelligence suQgested that the anti-internment march would be- used as a cover for- an attack on the soldiers, end the pLan was to have e pincer movement, centre and two sides which would net sorne locel IRA Leaders, hence the speed with which they had to get around and the sort of I think shooting of anyone between 15 end 40 who might be

## K

.assumed
        to be, I think they shot anybody who looketi about that
   age assumed they were an activist and they assumed that in the
   crowd trapped then there wouLd he IRA activists and that's my
   assumption and hence the Links the attempts to sort out who
   was who in the crowing realization
                            that I think at Fort
   George that they the RUC special branch they hadn't got
   anybody.
          My memory was that nobody was the IRA were not
   supposed to be there..

And cetecorically, you didn't see anyone

No no

With gun rIfle anything... Just the pares
                                          -

My evidence covers from Rosville Street frozn-Rosvijle flats,
down there that's all and certsinly at no stage did t see
anybody with cuns but whether. I had no idea wht was
happening inside the.
                     -

But to sort of press you on.
                              -is it actual vision or
impression that the soldiers got out and immediateLy got down?

I Saw, t mean,
               snap shots, mnemories
                                      I saw a pig swingingin,
a soldier out and on to one knee, now I think he was the one
that actually killed the first
                               cuy-

I-le 's onto one knee and
                          t i red straifl
                                          away.
                                                 Nc' messing
about.
                                                             M19438

Impression of the boy dropPiflV.

Then crowds
- across.

Gos there were maybe e dozen young tellers who t suspect were treatinQ
firing stones and so on.

All in e split second.

In out, banc That's my vision, Yeti.

Bad day Yes, yes..

- in terms ot how long it actually took-.

seemed to he minutesl've no certainly it doesn't seam to

That's very herd..
                    I mean i
idee how long
               ,
                 it probably

rae Looking back after twenty odd years to he moro then five or

six minutes, you know.
                        We ctaj'
                                     had time onlY to check

that that young feller was dying
                                  and Dennis gave him last

rights.. Look across and se
                              those three people, dying,

Dennis who wasn't e collar at the time, that's why he
                                                      wasn't

held, he was released fr-cm that crowd
                                        and

He shouted the last rights

Yes across. -

across to the father end son?

And the minute,
                t'in not

but
    . .and we then tried

sure, maybe another person
                            lying down.
to calm people, three fellers broke
seemed very short period before we saw
five or six,
            I don't know,
                           I woùldn't

e time frame on that
                     VOLE
                         !cnoL'.

and shot, after that it
troops around so maybe
be able to sort cf get

The majority of the crowd actually before the fl.rst shot was fired dispersed.

The majority of the crowd up here.

In tact we'd I
remember we was comjn up. -
we were actusl.ìy walked up towerds. - - coz Colin was speaking, from Lorry

## Brockley

the Lecture that said I
a bit end that's Brockley wondered

-
        And er.
                                I certainly Sew
  where the, we walked beck

when. - - .The vasti there were, maybe e hundred people, sort O?,

not a big crowd, ctjspers-scf ao1-oss
                                                       -:

Along this patch?

Yes, maybe from there to there.
                                 That's one's memory.
                                                        People

sort of, relatively, nobody.
                             -
                               st'flt Of

And you were there pur-cl; a&Ya
                                 ivil rihts..2

Yes,

Protestant?

No no I was Cathoji
                     Priest et. -

Right, you said you came from.

Prom East Belfast.
                    No in fact my father was the editor cf
                                                            the

national Irish NeWs.
                      Oled ten years ago.. Lived ali, our lives

in East
         Belfast.
                   How far is that
                                   ,
                                     established?

This is the Sunday Times.
                           3his is the Widgery tribuna]-, which
according to everybody isut of.-.
                                      it's just got a bit more

Yes, it steJ-,ds out..

I think there iz en official IRA man who admits that he was so overwhelmed that he ran to his flat and got a revolver and tired to..

That was always a rumour coing round that there may have been
one
    ,
      after.

PThere seems to be no evidence at all here apart from this forensic which is very, well. ;cou know

## Well Forensic Evidence S..

There is forensic impLlcetíc'ns
                                 for sort_Cf i"-ree o
                                                        hose and
three of the five but
                       s I say we haven't really
                                                    o

And flo'J of course the whole atatus of forensic evidence.
Certainly nobody in my group was swabbed.
                                             But I would have
had assumed that fairly early on the WC had established that
they hadn't got anybody.
                           There may have been, there were on
occasions people taken out cf that goom and some of them came
back and said, well7 I don't know what happened to them.
                                                            - t
think a large number of them
                              weri charged.
                                              And eher. as I say
I wroté to the commanding otticet- saying wh
                                               :'.'er happened
during the shooting
                      which Fiad obviously happ'med for a quite
different sort of thjn, I wanted to protest st the behaviour
of the troops.
                Sc, eventually twç' military r-c'lioe arrived to
take n statementS.
                    And tocked at photographs, because abt of
the photographs of soldiers now.
                                   I was particularly anxious{
not indeed Lance Corporei ¶nottttF
                                 ,
                                   I felt that there Was a
certain grim Irony in it. No doubt he was, presumably a

Liverpool catholic, Irish you know, in a certain, I had got
into trouble with my own bishop for not wearing my collars so
the fact that Lance Corporal &cntn.F doing the seme as my own
bishop, kicking rna for not wearing collar, a certain grim
humour to it,
                 t never btemed him toc much.
                                               But there was e
      haired, very
                        haIred Daretrooper
                                               was a sadIst
    I reafly dj
                 went to neil hirn.
                                                      449 441

He sDent long periods,
                       you know, idly torturing people,
hitting,
          stamping on teat> .ust to pass time; so
                                                     really did
want bring a point,
                     I don't know,
                                    Almost
                                                  haIred.

He wasn't a Geordie?

Didn't appear to have e you know sort cf outstanding. -

Did you feel, while in custody
                                banana republic ttme?

I was frightened,.
                    The fact of being both an academic and
priest gives you a certain er
                                ,
                                  I'c have been much more
frightened if I'd been
                           seventeen year- old b...
                                                     YOU
                                                         tçnow.

I mean even yourstand5nc, di'n't protect
                                         you,..

Certainly didn't protect me from heng charged with stone
throwing which I thought ironic.
                                  But at that stage, F'ergus
Macateir was charged also and this wee twelve yer old and the
Lieutenant simply came in and he was clearly wanting everybody
charged, and also he said who's got those people, StI.DIEF -
take those.
             You
                  saw them throwing stones?

Fairly You saw the.

Yes, fairly crude
                  -
                    theu'
                           tr
                               of the thin
                                             J protested
                                                          to
the Commanding otfl ocr- tht!t there was no ettemnt 1to charge
people With real
                 crimes.
                          Just simply setting up

What happened
              to...

Just ignor,.
             They were all dropped,
                                 nd m' mnc-ry is that i
got e letter from whoever investigated,
                                  J t
                                     was
                                         n army
investjg0
           Ott ice, or sornthing, I can' t. remember
                                                /419e 442

They wrote saying
                   that in light of the fact that no charges
were being pressed against soldiers or civil3ens they felt it
better not to continue on the investigation.
                                              I didn't bother.

      How did you cope with it.
                                 Did you put it out your mind?
F
      ern, used to wake up with grim nightmares at the b'ginning.
                                                                    It

still stai-cs me to tL-dnk of how close one gett, to
                                                     ,
                                                       certainly
that's, I've never seen øeole killed that way before or
since, and ein my one bic worry at the time was we could
                                                            --
actually have restrained those three f eì,lars from running away
and they were to be kiilecL you know.
                                        Now it seerus after all
it's happened a long while ego.
                                  I've disliked the way in

which they, celebrations the commenorat ions have been hijacked
so I've never gone to any of the Bloody Sunday commemorations.
I'm profoundjy anti-
                      ntvtolence_
                                     I've never wished to
associate myself with any of the subsequent commemorations.
                                                              I
suppose one dey I shall take my children to see the monument.

You've never been back there-

No I meen I teach regularly in
                                 and. .nc.
                                           T wlkd through
- .side, never made a pilgr4 mage
                                 it you like*

Do your family and children know?

Oh yes.

Well thanks very much,
                       I think of the three

g;
now, 18 then)
Married woman, never talked about it, not even told teenage children she was there. Very ordinary, personable, believable witness. She knew many of the young men who were shot, lived near many of them. Will only speak to what she saw, and sticks very concisely to that.

WITNESS TO ¡ GUmour :shot in back/side?

MeGuigan: shot in back of head, and leg?

WIDGERY WLTPZESS

STORY
Young, about to get married, and Civil Rights meant future
suddenLy looked brighter for us all. Never been political
before or since.

.Standizig on corner of Rossville flats and William Street as
aritty came in on foot and then with pigs through LittLe James
Street. Ran towards barricade along Rossv-ille Street, side
nearest the tower blocks. Running either side of her were two
young mart.

One on right (Gitmour) staggered, and said "I'm hit". They were
almost level with the end of the block.of flats, and he
suddenly seemed to take on new life and ran faster and over the
barricade, with G. close behind. She has the impression there
was at least one body on barricades at this point that she
noticed but really only concerned with herself.

Over the barricade, Gitmour staggered and went down in the open
near the phone box, at the back of Rosaville flats block 1. She
cradled his head in her arms, asked for his Mum, they said a
prayer together and he died. Wounded in right hand stde, shot
in back and caine out left hand side front as she remembers.
(Is Tilts RIGHT? WITHOUT FORETSIC NOTES I could not press her.)

She was then dragged in to sheLter, as bullets were flying
around her. About a dozen people huddled in there as shooting
went on. They heard Paddy Doherty shouting and moaning "I don't
want to die alone" over and over again. ticGuigan against
everyone's advice went out to see to Paddy, waving a white
cloth or hankie. He was turned towards the soldiers who were
firing from Glenfada park area, and was hit in the Leg, which
spuñ him round, then in the back of the head. Geraldine then
went into hysterics and had to be held from rushing out
herse 1.1.
SIGI1IFICANCE
- Geraldine's story that
                         these were the first shots, and before
the pigs arrived, is backed up by klee Nash, O'Keef e,
                                                      Wallach,
means the whole courtyard scenario, followed a minute or so
later.
- Widgery thus got first shots wrong,
                                      and begs the question of
what were they shooting at, provided the forensic evidence is
doubtful.
                                             ENDS
                                                     MIA' 444

## Derry Intervtews Bernadette Devlin Was A 'No Violace- Underta1Ung Wifr Tue Ira Saw Tre Crowd Besieging Civil Itai'S Oecanisat Dbtlanding Weapons Tflflt The Shootings

1] BLOODY SUNDAY WAS EFFECTIVE IN CLEARING TRE STREETS OF PROTEST MARCHERS -PEOPLE WERE VERY
SCARED OP PROTESTING PUBLICLY AFrER TRAT.

## 21 She Says There B No Doubt That There Was Firing From The Derry Walls.

 THERE WAS AN UNDERTAN DING BETWEEN TRIE PRO VOS ANO TRE CIVIL RIGHTS PEOPLE THAT THERE WOULD BE
NO GUNS IN TRE CITY THAT DAY - NOT lusT NO GUNS ON TRE MARCH. THE REASON FOR THIS WAS TO Avow
RAIDS ON HOMES
                 IN
                     DERRY
                             IN WiHCH THE POLICE/ARMY FOUND WEAPONS AND THEN USED THEM AS
PROPOG ANDA TOOLS TO JU5T
                            Dfl i?flVÇENT AJO) THE BAN ON MARCRFS.

  IF THERE HAD BEEN A SHOT FIRED FROM A GUNMAN IN TRE CROWD - THAT PERSON WOULD HAVE BEEN
TRAMPLED BY TRE CROWD BECAUSETHE MAIN ATMOSPHERE AT THAT TIME WAS OPPOSED TO ARMED STRUGGLE.
iN FACt WHEN THE PWJ4c3 BEGAN -
                                          (WHO RAD NEGOTIATED THE 'NO ARMS' AGREEMENT WTTH
THE PROVOS . WASSURROUNDED BY AN ANGRY CROWD, INCLKIJD ING 60 YEAR OLD WOMEN. WHO WERE
DEMAND ING TO 1010w W1S THE WEAPONS WERE SÒ THEY COULD DEFEND THEMSELVES. W TRE OFFICIAL IRA
MAN HAD PUtEO FIRST, EVERYONE IN DERRY WOULD HAVE KNOWN ABOUT IT BY THAT EVENING AND RE WOULD
EITHER HAVE BEEN LYNCHED OR AT BEST WOULD HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO LIVE Ri THE CitY AGAIN.

5) SHE SAYS SHE CAN FORGIVE THE pARAS THEMSELVES BECAUSETHEY ARE ONLY DOING WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN
TRAINED FOR -THAT IF'S NOT THE PARS'S FAULT IF SOCIETY HAS DECIDED TO END HIM BERE. WHAT SHE CANNOT
FORGIVE IS THE STATE FOR BEHAVING AS W ITS A PARA BY SENDING THEM BERE.

## Maroarer P Ij Hutton

1] ONLY MARGAREt WAS ON TRE MARCH - AND SHE WAS TOO FAR FROM THE ACTION (UP AT DERRY CORNER) TO
SEE ANYTHING OF CONSEQUENC. THE ONLY POINT OF INTEREST IS HER CONVICFION THAT THERE WAS FIRING
FROM THE DERRY WALLS - BUT SHE DIDN'T SEE ANYONE FIRING FROM THE WALLS, SHE JUST HEARD BULLETS
WHIZZING OVER HER AND IS SURE THEY CAME FROM THE WALLS. SHE ALSO TALKS ABOUT THE TERRIBLE FEAR
SHE FELT THAT DAY.

21 MARAGREI' SAYS THE EVENT TRANSFORMED HER LUt - SHE WENT ON THE MARCH AGED 15 BECAUSE IT WAS A
DAY OUT - SHE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT POLITICS AND EVEN HAD TO ASK BER MOTHER WHAT THEY WERE
MARCHING FOR. AFTER BLOODY SUNDAY SHE (AND THE FRIENDS WHO WENT ON THE MARCH WIT HER) TRIED TO
JOIN THE IRA. 1 PUT MY NAME DOWN BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE MURDERED, SHE SAYS. rr LEFt ME VERY VERY
Bit t Ht, NO JUSTICE WAS DONE. I ROPE PEOPLE NEVER FORGET BLOODY SUNDAY. IF TRIS COULD HAPPEN ONCE
- lT COULD EASILY HAPPEN AGAIN. SUE DIDN'T JOIN UP IN THE END.

3111ER MOTHER, ELLEN, WAS LOOKING OUT OF HER FWI'R FLOOR WINDOW IN THE ROSSVILLE FLATS AT TRE TIME.

511E SAW DALY WAflING ALONG WITH HIS HANDKERCHIEF RAISED IN THE AIR THROUGH HEIL FRONT WINDOW.

TREN SHE MOVED TO THE WINDOW OVERLOOKING THE COURTYARD AND SAW A GROUP 0F PEOPLE RUN INTO A
HOUSE AT THE TOP OF CHAMBER LLAr; STREET - FOLLOWED BY SOME SOLDIERS ON FOOT WHO BROKE DOWN THE
FRONT POOR AND PULLED THEM ALL 0Lit. THEY GAVE ONE MAN A SERiOUS BEATING. ELLEN SHOUTED AT TRE
SOLDIERS TO LEAVE HIM ALONE. SHE DIDN'TSEE THE GUNMAN EDGING ALONG THE GABLE END WALL - NOR DII)
SHE SEE ANY SOLDIERS SHOOTING THOUGH SHE MIGHT HAVE SEEN DUDDY LYING ON THE GROUND. THEN SHE
STOPPED LOOKING.

## Derry Inter'Siews Pr Raymond Acclean

HE SPOEE TO PEOPLE etosEto THE ¡RA A) WAS SO amin THERE WASWT GOING TO BE TROUBLE BE LET HIS
MEDICAL KIT fl THE CAZ.

1) HE WAS IN CHARGE OF A MEDICAL POST SET 113F IN WESTLAND TERRACE IN A SWEET SHOP WHENEVER THERE
WAS A DEMONSTRATION. BUT 11E DIDN;T PO SO AT BLOODY SUNDAY BECAUSE HE WAS CERTAIN THERE WASN'T
GOING TO BE ANY ThOU ELE. 11E HAD GONE - Willi TWO OR 'flTh Qflj
- TO SPEAK TO PEOPLE CLOSE To THE
PROVISIONAL ItA WHO .4$SU1.ED Thfl4 THAT THERE WASN'T GOING TO BE ANY TROUBLE THATDAY. HE SAYS HE
RAD NO DOUBT TRAT THESE PEOPLE WERE SPEAKING AUTHORITATIVELY BECAUSE AT THAT TIME HERE WERE
CONTACTS ESTABLISHED BETWEEN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT AND THE nOV05.

RE WAS SO CERTAIN THERE WAS NOT 006ING TO BE ANY TROUELE THAT HE LEFT HIS MEDICAL GEAR IN 0X5 CAR.

21 HE SAYS THE OFFICIAL IRA WEREN'T A SIGNIFICANT FORCE AT THAT TIME.

l RETREATED DONAGHY AND JOHNSON AFTER THEY WERE SHOT.

4] HE ALSO TRIED TO HELP WILLIAM MCKINNEY BEFORE HE DIED. S] HE DIDN'T GIVE EVIDENCE AT W1DGERY.

## Eusen Dorent - P4Doy Doïwitiw'S W

11 PADDY WAS A PLUMBER'S MATE AND A STEWARt) ON ThE MARCH. HE'D ONLY BEEN IN TRE CIVIL RIGHTS
MOVEMENT POR A SHORT WHILE.

21 THERE WAS A VERY HAPPY ATMOSPHERE ON THE MARCH - THEY WERE SINGING "WE SHALL OVERCOMr ETC.

HER HUSBAND LEFT HER AT THE CREGGAN AND SHP. DIDN'T SEE HIM ALIVE AGAIN. SHE WENT UP ROSSViLLE STREET
TOWARDS DERRY CORNER - AND DID NOT SEE THE RIOT IN WILLIAM STREET.

31 WHEN TRE FIRING FItST STARTED SHE THOUGHT TV WAS COMING FROM THE DERRY WALLS - ALTHOUGH SHE
CANNOT BE SURE OF Tills. SHE DIDN T STOP TO THINK ABOUT fi'. INSTEAD SHE CLIMBED OVER A 6 FEEl' HIGH
BARRICADE BY FREE DERRY CORNER (A CONSIDERABLE FEAT FOR SOMEONE WHO TRENWEIGHED 16 STONE). SHE
CROUCHED DOWN BEH iN!) TRE BARRICADE AND TEEN BECAME MORE CERTAIN THAT THE FIRING WAS COMING
FROM TORE DERRY WALLS.

43 SHE'D BEEN MABJUE!) II YEARS AND HAD SIX CHILDREN WHEN PADDY DIED.

51 SHE SAYS SHE SURVIVED THE DEATH OF HER HUSBAND AND THE FAMILY BREADWINNER WITH ¡tER WIDOWS
PENSION AND THROUGH TIlE GE4EROSffY 0f HER FRIENDS AND OTHER WELL-WISHERS.

63 POLITICALLY SHESAYS THEYE WEREN 'T REALLY VERY ACTIVE AT THAT TIME. SHEUSEDTO COLLECT AND RAISE
MONEY FOR INTERNEES AND THEIR FAiM' ¡rs. SHE WAS HOEEVER VERY FRUSTRATED BY THE DISCRIMINATION
CATHOLICS EXPERiENCED AT WORK AND ELSEWHERE..

73 SHE SAYS PADDY WAS NOT POLITICALLY ACTIVE APART FROM, ¡US WORK WITH THECIVIL RIGIfl'SMOVEMENTS, HE WAS A VERY "STAY-AT-HOME" SORT OF PERSON AND DEFIN1TELYV WAS NOT INVOLVED IN ANY BOMBING OR
SHOOTING ON TRAT DAY Oft AT A.NY OTHER TIME. 0E HARDLY EVER WENT OUT, SHE SAYS, AND COULD NOT HAVE
BEEN A MEMBER OF THE IRA.

83
Fif N LOOKED UPON THE IRA AS THEIR PROTECTORS BECAUSE OF THE PROTESTANT/RUC ATTACKS ON
CATHOLIC HOMES. BLOODY SUNDAY DID NOT ALTER HER OPINIONS ON THIS SCORE. SHE ALSO SUPPORTS THE
ARMED STRUGGLE AGAINST BRITISH RULE - SAYING THAT VIOLENCE IS TRE ONLYLANGUAGE BRITAIN HAS EVER
UNDERSTOOD IN ITS LONG HISTORY OF COLONIAL CONQUESTS. THAT TRIS LS THE ONLY WAY THEY HAVE EVER
LEFT COUNTRIES THEY BAVE INVADED.

## Berry Interviews Daisy Mules

MIDDLE CLASS LANDED GEJCRY CONVERT TO SINN FEØ'l MEMBER - VERY ARTICULATK GOOD ON THE LFLtCT
BLOODY SUNDAY HAD ON HER.

-
SAW TWO PEOPLE SHOT (Mn NASH WAS ONE) ON BAJtRIC ADE Bff SHE WAS NOT VERY NEAR THEM.

## Address:

1] SHE WAS IN THE CROWD AT FREE DEflY COR}iER WHEN TIlE SHOOrD4O BEGAJ4 SHE RUSHED FOR COVER AND
ENDED UP LYING DOWN BEHIND A WALL NEXT TO THE ABBEY PARK BLOCK THAT FRONTS ROSSVILLE STREEt SHE
SAYS SHE WAS PETRIFIED - THAT THERE WERE BURSTS OF SHOOTING IN WHICH IT SOUNDED AS IF VARiOUS
SOLDIERS WERE FIRING - THEN GAPS IN WHICH THERE'D BE ONE Oit TWO ISOLATED SHOTS FOLLOWED BY MORE
SIMULTANEOUS SHOOTING.

21 SHE SAW ONE MAN WHO WAS BY THE BARRICADE BUT RUNNINGTOWARDS GLENFADA FALL. SHE CAN;T BE SURE
WHETHER HE WAS HOLDING ANYTHING AT THE TIME. TREN SHE SAW ANOTHER MAN CRAWLING (?) TOWARDS HIM
WiTH IllS HANDS OUTSTRETCHED WHO WAS ALSO SHOT. SHE SAYS HE OBVIOUSLY WASN'T MOWING ANYTHING AND
EQUALLY OBVIOUSLY WAS TRYING TO HELP TEE FIRST MAN. SHE'S NOT SURE WHERE THEY WERE Erl'.

3] SHE WAS PROM A VERY UPPER MIDDLE-CLASS BACKGROUND - WENT TO A CONVENT SCHOOL- RODE HORSES ETC
AND AT THE TIME OF BLOODY SUNDAY WAS A STUDENT IN DUBLIN. SHE WASN'T PARTICULARLY POLiTICALLY
MINDED THEN - BUT RAI) COME ON THE MARCH BECAUSE SOME FRIENDS OF HERS WHO WERE MUCH MORE
POLITICALLY AWARE, WERE GOING. SHE SAYS THAT BLOODY SUNDAY DESTROYED HER DEVOUT RELIGIOUS VIEWS
AND POLITICISED HER TO A GREAT EXTENT.

fi' WAS HER FIRST TASTE OF THE REAL WORLD OUTSIDE HER SHELTERED EXISTENCE.SHE JOINED A MARXIST GROUP
AT UNIVERSrrY - LATER BECAME A SWP MEMBER - THEN JOINED TIlE LABOUR PAJtfl AND FINALLY IN 1982 JOINED
SINN FEIN.

## Eugene Roddy - John Youncys Best Friend

RODDY IS
INVOLVED AND DOESN'TSUPPORT VIOLENT SOUIflONSTOTHE CONFIJCr.

IN 1972 NB DID THROW STONES AT TEE SOLDIH1S - BUT SO DID EVERYONE USE OF TEAT AGE LUE WAS 16] Il HE WENT ON THE MARCH WITH SOHN - BUT THEY GOT SEPARATED AFTER TRE RiOTING BEGAN AT TRE WILLIAM
STREET BARRa. EUGENE MADE HIS WAY HOME AND DLDN'T SEE ANY OF THE SHOOTING.

2] HE SAYS THEY BOTH WENT TO THE MARCH IN THEIR SUNDAY BEST - THREE PIECE SUITS - AND THAT JOHN JUST
WASN T THE TYPE TO BE INVOLVED IN A PARAMilITARY GROUP. HE WAS CRAZY ABOUT MUSIC. AND USED TO BE
A FIRM FOLLOWER OF EUGENE'S BAND. HE WAS INTERESTED IN WOMEN BUT HE HAD NO PRONOUNCED POLITICAL
VIEWS AT ALL - OTHER THAN TO SUPPORT THE CIVIL IUGHTSD MOVEMENT. THEY RARELY TALKED POLITICS AT ALL.

JOHN WAS A REGUlAR CHURCH 00ER (EUGENE WAS?F - HE FOUND MASS BORING) AND WAS ALSO TEETOTAL
BECAUSE HE DIDN'T LU DRINKING.

31 AS FAR AS EUGENE KNOWS JOHN HAD NEVER HANDLED A GUN. HE JUST WASN'T THE TYPE OP GUY TO HAVE
FIRED A GUN. AND ANYWAY HE WAS WEARING A THREE PW'F SUIF AND JUST COULDN'T }{KJE HIDDEN ONE QN
TI DAY'
4] AT THE TIME EUGENE DESCRIBES HIS POLITICAL VIEWS AS NAIVE - HE SAYS lUS LIFE REVOLVED AROUND MUSIC
(HE PLAYS DRUMS AND SINGS). RE HAS NO CONNECTIONS WITH THE IRA AND SAYS HE HAS NO CONVICTIONS FOR VIOLENCE-RELATED CRIMES.

## Derry Interviews Maura Dufvy - John Younoes Sister

I) SHE DIDN"I' WITNESS HIS DEATR.THEY WERE BOTH ON ThE MARCH BUT LEFT HOME SEPARATELY & MAtiRA GOT
SCARED WHEN SHE HEARD GUN FIRE AND RETURNED ROME.

21 SHE SAYS RE HAD NO PRONOUNCED POLITICAL VIEWS AND WAS NOT A MEMBER OF A POLrUCAL PARTY. HE WAS
ALSO NOT FROM A FAMILY WITH STRONG POLITICAL OPINIONS. JOHN WAS WORKING FOR A MEN'S OLJTFTfl'ERS
CALLED JOHN TEMPLE AT TITE TIME OF EUS DEATH, iLE HAD BEEN A SHOP ASSISTANTTHERE SINCE RE WAS IS (RE
WAS 17 WREN HE WAS 5H01). TifE pIRJ4 WA$ vay PLEASED WITH HIS PROGRESS - TRE FAMILY HAS LEITERS
SAYING THEY THOUGHT RE HAD A IflT OF POTENTIAL. THEY WERE EVEN ABOUT TOSEND HUY! TO A BRANCH 114
ENGLAND TO TR.MN AS AN ASSISTENT MANAGER. RE LOVED CLOTHES AND HAD SEVEN SUITS.HE WAS ALSO TRE
ROADY FOR A LOCAL BAND.

3) MAURA SAYS JOHN DZ) GO RIOTING - BUT THEN TEAT WAS TEE NORM FOR YOUNG MEN AT THAT TIME. YOU
WEREN7 ONE OF TUE LADS UNLESS YOU DID. BUT SHE'S CONVINCED HE WASN'T INVOLVED IN ANY
PABAMILrVARY ACT1VITIES.HE WAS TOO INTERESTED IN HIS WORK AND HIS MUSIC SHE SAYS.

41 11E WAS RIGHT HANDED (THE FORENSIC DEPOSITS WERE ON 1(15 LEFT HAND- BUT IF HE'D FIRED A RIFLE HE
COULD HAVE SUCH DEPOSITS ON HIS LEFT HAND) AND MAtiRA SAYS THAT WHEN SHE SAW HIM IN HIS COFFIN FUS
WRISTS LOOKED AS IF THEY HAI) BEEN TIED TOG EntER (THERE WERE ROPE MARKS ON THEM -POSSIBLY INDICATING
TRAT SOLDIERS HAD TOUCHED HIS HANDS AND THEREFORE TRANSFERRED LEAD DEPOSITSONTO IllS HAND.)

## Danny Gulespts

- SUtONG ACCENT, IN BIS Fu' lu's. NOT A VERY CLEAR THINKER - RATHER SLOW.

## Shot In Heal) P4 Giflwada: $Ligrtly 110Lire) 8E D1Dnt Give Evidence At Widgery Saw Rubber Bullet Spiked Wiib Glass

I) HE WAS UNEMPLOYED - WEN!' ON MARCHES TO SUPPORT CIVIL RIGHTS, NOT A MEMBER OF A POLITICAL PARTY.

SAYS HE WOULD THEN HAVE SYMPATHISED WITH TUE IRA BUT HAS NO CONNECTIONS WITH THEM AND NETTHER
DOES HIS FAMILY. RE ALSO SAYS HE'S GOT NO RECORD.

2) WENT ON THE MARCH WITH A FRIEND. THEY WENT UPTO THE WILLIAM STREET BARRICADEAND WREN RUBBER
BULLETS WERE FIRED HE WENT BACK TO WILLIAM STREET'S JUNCTION wrni ROSSVILLE STREET.THERE HE SAW
A MAN WHOSE MOUTH HAD BEEN CUT OPEN BY A RUBBER BULLET.

A FRiEND OF THE MAN GAVE RIM THE BULLET AND HE SAW if HAD BEEN DELIBERATELY CUT OPEN AND A BlADE
OP GLASS INSERTED INTO THE CITI', THATS WHAT CUT THE MA.WS MOUTH. HE'S QUITECERTAIN TRE BUllET HAI)
BEEN DELIBERATELY DOCTORED AND HE SAYS 'flits IS NOT THE ONLY WAY HE'S SEEN RUBBER BULLETS
BASTARDISED: HE'S SEEN ONES THAT HAVE BEEN CUT AND HOLLOWED (t) TO PERMIT THE INSERTION OF A
BATTERY TO MAKE THEM HEAVIER.

3] THEN THEY WENT UP ROSS VILLE STREET AND WATCHED FROM A BUILDING DIRECTLY OPPOSITE THE GABI. END
OFTRE GLENFADA PLATS BLOCK NEAREST TO ROSSVILE STREET. 11E SAW THE PICS ROAR UP THE STREET a ONTO
EDEN PLACE. HE DID NOT SEE ANY GUNFIRE DIRECTED AT TRE PIGS - BITT WATCHED AS THE SOLDIER GOT OUT
OF THE VEHICLES AND TOOK UP POSITIONS WITH THEIR RIFLES RAISED IN THE AIR. HUMOVED AWAY BEFORE TEE
FIRING BEGAN.

4) HIS MATE PADDY (WHO BAD A BAD CHEST & HEART) DECIDED TO LEAVE TRE SCENE AND GO HOME. DANNY
MOVED PASt GLENFADA PARK INTO ABBEY PARK. TEERE RE MET THREE OIlIER MEN WHO WERE ALL THROWING
STONES AT THE SOLDIERS. OUT OF CURIOSITY THEY RAN BACK DOWN TO GLEN FADAPARK TO SEE WHAT WAS
HAPPENING. THEY RAN IN . THE THREE MEN HE WAS WITH WERE READY TO THROW STONES - HE WAS WT
RUNNING - WREN A SOLDIER AT THE OTHER END OF THE GLENPADA COURTYARD 50(1V HIM.HE SAYS TUE BULLET
HIT A WALL AND THEN HIT HIM IN THE HEAD. HE WAS KNOCICED DOWN UNCONSCIOUS AND WREN RE AWOKE
ANOTHER MAN WAS LYING ACROSS HIM. 14E WAS VERY GIDDY AND DISORIENTED- BUT
ISED HIMSELF AND
STOOD AGAINST A WALL FOR SUPPORT. RE NOTICED TWO PEOPLE WHO RAD BEEN SOOT: ONE LYING TO TRE RIG WI'
OF WHERE 11E HAD BEEN ON TITE GROUND - THE OTHER SOME DISTANCE AWAY WHO WAS TRYING TO GET UP.

THEN TWO MEN CAME TO HIM AND HELPED RIM HOME. THERE WAS A LOT OF BLOOD ON HIM BUT HE WASN'T
BADLY INJURED AND DIDN7 GO TO HOSPITAL.

## Derry Interviews Eamonn Mccp.N$ .0E Waswt Wrruin Clear Eyesbot Of Tue Shooting Talks Of Tue Large Number Op Armed Men In The Bogside In 'Frase Days Saw A Number Of Flavos Desating Wuti Ufs. To Retajjath »Tat Tee Shootings

I) RE SAYS TRAT BESIDES THE WOVOS Ai4D OFPICLAJS, THERE WAS ONE OTHER ARMED GROUP IN TRE BOGSIDE
IN 1972 - SIERERA (FREE IRELAND) - BWrEAICAWAY GROUP FROM THE REPUBLICANS WHO RAD A FEW AMED MEN
IN THE BOOSIDE.

2) IN 1971 THE OFnCiAj WERE AS ACTIVE Aß TRE PROVC)S - ALTHOUOHTHE PROVOS WERE ON TRE WAY UP THEM.

33 THERE USED TO BE LOTS OF ARMED MEN IN TRE 80051DB IN THOSE DAYS - THERE WAS EVEN A PERMANENT
SANDBAGGED MACHINE GUN EMPLACEMENT NCF TO A PU
(TITE SOGSIDE INN fl). HE DOESNTT KNOW IF THE
WERE PRESENT ON THAT DAY (OFFICIALLY; THAT IS) BUT ET IS QUITE POSSIBLE THAT TEERE WERE ARMED
PROVOS IN THE AREA WHO COULD HAVE DECIDED oN ThEa OWN TO FIRE AT TRE ARMY.

## Spitovos I

h
4j AFTER THE SHOOTING, HE SAW A NUMBER. OF ARMED PROVOS DEBATING WHETHEIt TO RETURN FIRE. THEY
DECIDED NOT TO RECAUSE OP THE POTENTIAL PROPAGANDA VALUE TO THE REPU RUCAN CAUSE OF AN
UNPROVOKED ATTACK ON THE NATIONALISTS BY THE ARMY.

S).

WAS THE LEADER OF TRE OFFICIALS AT THE TiME.

## O$Al Mcfeelx Saw Soldier Jump Out Op Pfl Good On Gfleral E&-F*Al1 B 0F Bloody Sunday

I) 11E WAS FROM AN APOLITICAL EAMU.Y . HIS PARENTS WERE DEVOUT CATHOLICS & WERE VERY SUPPORTIVE OF
LAW & ORDER.

RE WAS Nor A MEMBER OF ANY POLITICAL PARTY THEN OR NOW BUT AFTER BLOODY SUNDAY RE BECAME ACTIVE
IN TRADE UNION POLItiCS. HE WAS AN APPRENTICE ENGINEER/FITTER AT A FIRM CALLED DUPONT'S
21 HE WENT TO THE MARCI! Wrçg }i BROTRER DENNIS; HIS PARENTS; GERRY DONAGHY (WHO WAS KILLED) AND
A FEW Oflt FRNDS. THEY ALL GOT SEPARATED ONCE TRE SHOOTING BEGAN.

330E WAS THROWING STONES AT TRE BARRICADE IN WILLIAM STREET AND THEN WENT UP CHAMBERLAIN STREET
AND DOWN EDEN STREET. WHEN RE WAS IN PILOT ROW ON RIS WAY TOWARDS THE ROSSVILLE FLATS HE SAW A PIC) DRIVER UP AND STOP IN EDEN PLACE AND A
SOLDIER JUMPED OIfl' WITH OTO ER SOLDIERS FROM THE
BACK OF THE VEHICLE. HE SAYS HE'S CERJA1N THERE WERE NO SHOTS FIRED AT THE PIO AS it DROVE UP OR
WHEN TE HAD STOPPED.

WOULD HAVE BEEN MADNESS' 11E SAYS RECAUSE THERE WERE SO MANY PEOPLE DT
THE AREA BETWEEN EDEN PLACE A14D THE ROSSVILLE FLATS COURTYUARD -THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN BOUND TO
RAVE BEEN BR' BY ANY IRA GUNFIRE.

RE DOESM7T}jflJjflHE SOLDIERS WERE FIRED ON BITT HE CANI' BE SURE.

RE'S VERY GOOD ON GENERAL BLOODY SUNDAY P011415 - LIKE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO JOINED 111E IRA
AFTERWARDS AND WHO MIGHT OTHERWISE NOT HAVE OPTED FOR VIOLENCE. MANY OP THOSE HE WAS WITH TRAT
DAY JOINED THE IRA -
INCLUDING RIS BROTHER DENNIS. HE LATER GOT A 20 YEAR JAB- SENTENCE FOR
ATTEMPTED MURDER OF A POLICEMAN (t SERVED 15 OF THESE). PEOPLE REALISED HOW VICIOUS THE STATE
APPARATUS COULD BE, RE EXPLADTS.

## Dents Bradley

FORMER PRIEST - NOW FILM PRODUCER. (H63SS1çvQ)2676 L6.N0T A BRILLIANT TAL
- CONVOLUFED&MUMBLED.

HE GAVE EVIDENCE AT WIDGFRY
TOLD BY A HIGH RANKING PROVO TRAT THERE WAS All OFFICIAL GUNMAN IN GLENFADA
TOLD BY A FRIEND 'ItERE WAS ANOTHER IN BlOCK 30F ROSSVILLE FLATS
fl HE WAS HANGING OUT TALKING WITH PEOPLE IN THE KEIfl WALK AREA.

GUNMAN - AND TAREN HIS GUN AWAY. THIS WAS BEFORE THE MAIN SHOOTING STARTED. HE WAS ALSO TOLD BY
A COLLEAGUE THAT THERE WAS ANOTHER OFFICIAL GUNMAN BEHIND BLOCKS OF THE ROSSVILLE PLATS. TRIS
MAN MAY RAVE FIRED BUT HE DOESNTT KNOW. HE SAYS HIS FRIEND SAW TRE GUNMAN.

HE SAYS HE WAS TOLD BY TWO HIGH RANKING PROVOS THAT THERE WAS A GUNMAN IN A FLAT (POSSIBLY
GLENFADA) AND THAT THEY WERE GOING TO GEl' RB) OF HIM BECAUSE ri' WAS FAR TOO DANGEROUS TO SHOOT
AT TIlER ARMY WITH THE NUMBER OF MARCHERS IN THE AREA. THE PROVOS SAID THEY THOUGHT TRE GUNMAN
(AN OFFICIAL IRA MAN) WANTED TO GET A SHOT AT THE SOLDflS QN ROOF TOPS NEAR STEVENSONS BAKERY.

AT THIS TiME THE PROVOS SAW THEMSELVES AS THE POLICEMEN OF THE AREA AND THERE WAS L1TItE LOVE
LOST BETWEEN THEM AND THE OFFICIALS. BRADLEY SAYS THE WDVOS LATER SAID THEY HAD aGI' RID 0F TRE

2] WHEN TRE SHOOTING STARTED 11E WAS STANDING AT THE GABLE END OF THE GLENFADA PARK BLOCK
NEAREST ROSSVIT i P STREET. HE HAD A VIEW OF THE BAiUUCADE THE NO I BLOCK OF ROSSV USE FLATS AND
GLEN FADA PARK
               SEI.F. RE SAYS HE'S CERTAIN THAT TREREC WERE NO GUNMEN IN THE AREA RE WAS
OBSERVING. EVEN IF HE HAD MISSED SOMEONE FIRING
                                             - THAT THERE WAS TOO MUCH PANIC AND FEAR FOR
ANYONE TO RAVE RUN UP AND PICKED UP A GUN FROM ANY GUNMAN SHOT DEAD.

RE SAYS HE WAS PETRIFIED - THAT THERE WAS A CONCENTRATED FUSILADE OF SHOTS AND HE SAW BULLETS
HrrnNG THE PAVEMENT. HE WAS SURPRISED AND SHOCKED. HE THINKS ALI.. THOSE SHOT IN THE AREA OF THE
BARRICADE AND THE FRONT OF NO. I BLOCK 'NERE SHOT IN A VERY SHORT SPACE OF T1ME.

31 HE DIDN'T SEE ANYONE SRO- EXCEPT A FLEETING GLANCE OF A MAN RUNNING IN GLENPADA PARK WHO THEN
FELL OVER AS IF RE HAD BEEN SHOT. BUT IT WAS ONLY A FLEETING GLANCE.
HE MINISTERED TO THIS MAN. HE SAW TWO MEN LYING ON THE BARRICADE IN ROSSVILLE STREET (WHICH HE
SAYS WASN'T REALLY A BARRICADE - MORE A PILE OF RUBBLe - ONE WAS ELDERLY AND WAS SHOUTING «iAS IFS
FATHER) AND THE ORfl?. (NASH) WAS LYING STILL). HE HAD TO BE RESTRAiNED WHEN RE TRIED TO GO AND
MINISTER TO THEM. HE SAYS HE WAS PROBABLY GLAD THAT HE WAS HELD BACK BECAUSE IT WAS SO FRIGHT-
ENING. RE ALSO SAW A MAN LYING ON THE GROUND BY THE FRONT OF BLOCK I.

4] A PARA CAME ROUND TO THE GABLE END WHERE HE AND SOME OTHERS WERE SHELTERING AND ORDERED
THEM TO MARCH OFF DOWN TOWARDS KEILS WALK. THE PARAS ARRESTED SOME OF THESE PEROPLE BUT LET
HIM GO. HE WENT BACK TO MINISTER TO THE WOUNDED.

SI AFTER A FEW DAYS OF SILENCE AND GRIEF, THE EVE'flS AT BLOODY SUN DAY COMPLETELY UNDERMINEDTHE
AUTHORITY OF THE CLERGY - PEOPLE FLOCKED TO THE PROVOS.

## Gerry Dotiry

NO PHONE - CONTACF VIA STEPHANIE. HE'S VERY ARtICULATE & BELIEVABLE
WmJESSEI) IbUCKEY BRIDGE SHOT WITH RIS BANDS Thi TRE AIR SAW A SOLDIER SHOOT FROM TRE WV SAW THE OFFICIAI. GUNMAN EDGING ALONG THE WALL
SAW PATRICE MCDAID 5110F & mOURn)
-

## Saw Mcguigan & Gamour'S Bodies

Il HE WAS Il AHI) WENT TO TIlE MARCH WITH SOME FRIENDS INCLUDING HUGH GILMORE WHO WAS LATER SHOT.

HEGOT SEPARATED FROM HIS MATES DURING THE PANIC. HE WAS THEN AND POSSIBLY STILL IS ACTIVE 114 THE IRA.

HE DIDNT GIVE EVIDENCE AT WIDGERY.

21 RE BEGAN TRE MAACK NEAR Tuffi LORRY AT THE FRONT AND MADE HIS WAY DOWN TO THE WILLIAM STREET
BARRIER AND JOINED IN THE STONING OF TITER ARMY. THEN HE WENT TO LITTLE JAMES STREET AND THREW
STONES THERE AS WELL. THEN HE WENT UP TO -ICELLS WAUCANI) INTO COLUMECILLE COURT.

3] Im ENT DOWN CHAMBERLAIN ST AND LOOKED DOWN EDEN PLACE AND SAW PIGS GOING 1W ROSS VILLE STREET.

HE ALSO SAW SOLDIERS COMING UP CHAMBERLAIN STREEt' BEHIND HIM.

41 THEN HE WENT TO THE BACK OF THE ROSSVILLE FLATS AND SAW MICKEY BRIDGE STANDING IN THE
COURTYARD FACING
                        PIG.
HE WAS SHOUTING YOU BASTARDr WITH HIS HANDS RAISED WHEN HE WAS SHOT IN THE TOP OF HIS THIGH. HE
HAD NOTHING IN HIS HANDS- NO BOMB AND NO GUN. BRIDGE WAS 20 OR 30 Ittr AWAY FROM HIM WHEN HE WAS
SHOT. AS HE WATCHED HIM BEING CAflIED AWAY DUDDY MUST HAVE BEEN SHOT BECAUSE WHEN HE TURNED
HIS ATtENTION BACK TO THE COURTYARD WHERE BRIDGE HAD BEEN HE SAW DUDDY LYING ON THE GROUND.
HE ALSO SAW A SOLDIER SHOOT FROM THE HIP (Bn CERTAIN ABOUT THIS) - HE WOULD RAVE BEEN ON OF
       LOF.

51 THEN HE SAW A GUNMAN - A MAN WITH A REVOLVER - EDGING HIMSELF ALONG THE GABLE END WALL OF
CHAMBERLAIN flRtEflOWa$S
                                  PIG. HE WAS SLIDING ALONG THE WALL AND PROBABLY DIDNTREALISE
THAT THERE WERE A LOAD OP PAtAS JUST ROUND floe CORNER. HE SAW SOME OTHER PEOPLE GRAB HIM. GIVE
HIM A SMACK IN THE MOUTH AND PULL HIM AWAY BEFORE HE FIRED. HE THINKS HE WAS AN OFFICIAL litA MAN
(& SAYS CATEGORICALLY TRAT THE PROVOS WEREN'T THERE THAT DAY).

  HE WAS THEN STANDING WITH A LARGE GROUP BY A WALL TO THE LEFT OF THE GABLE END OF CHAMBERLAINE
STREET. HE TALKS OF THE PANIC THEY ALL FELT THAT DAY - OF THE CONTINUOUS BARRAGE OF FIRE FROM THE
PARAS - AND ROW THEY DECIDED TO WALIC WITH THEIR HANDS ON THEIR HEADS DOWN TOWARDS THE GAP
BETWEEN BLOCKS TWO AND THREE. THEY GOT HALF WAY LIKE THAT TITEN PANIC TOOK OVER AND THEY ALL
STARTED RUNNING - JUMPING OVER A LOW WALL TO GET TO THE GAP. HE RThIEMBERS SOMEONE SHOITI'ING
AAFFERWARDS THAT SOMEONE lIAD GOT SHOT AS HE WAS COMING TOWARDS THE WALL 'ATIUCK MCDAID)

  THEN ROUND THE FRONT OF BLOCK TWO HE SAW A BODY LYING ON ITS BACK AND, NEARER IFS CORNER WITH
ROSSVILLE ST, TWO MORE BODIES (HUGH GILMORE & BERNARD MCGUIGAN). GILMORE WAS His FRIEND.

S HE ALSO SAW A SOLDIER LYING THE OTHER SIDE OP THE BARRICADE ON TOP OF A GARDEN WALL OF ONE OF
THE GLENPADA FLAIrS. HE COULDN'T SE WHEI'HER THERE WERE ANY BODIES ON THE BARRICADE.

## 9) He Didn'T Hear Any Nail Bombs Go Off That Day 103 Slight Occupational Problems With This Man Ii Patrick Mcd Aid Suar In Back T Inbjp As Be Was Running Acrdss Tue Ross Ville Courtyard

¡J RE WAS A PLUMBER wira THE DERRY WATER BOARD AT THETIME. HES NOT A MEMBER OP A POLrnCAL PARTY
BUT LS A SINN FEiN SUPPORTER AND ALSO SUPPORTS THE IRA STRUGGLE.

2] RE BEGAN THE MARCH IN WILLIAM STREET - STAÑDING BY ITS JUNCflON WITH CHAMBERLAIN STREET WiTH
A COUPLE OF FRIENDS. HE WATCHED THE MARCHERSD COME UP TO THE BARRR IN WIllIAM STREET AED BEGIN TO THROW STONES. HE SAYS THERE WASNT'T A LOT 0F RIOTOUS BEHAVIOUR. OF CHAMBERLAIN ST. THEN HE LEFT AND WAS ABOUT TO RUN ACROSS THE COURTYARD WREN HE SAW DUDDY
SHOT. HE DIDN'T SEETHE SOLDn WHO SHOT HIM - BUT HE DID SEE DUDDY FALL AND SAYS HE WASN'T ROWING
ANYTHING IN HIS HANDS.

i THEY STARTED WALKING UP CHAMBERLAIN ST TOWARDS FREE DERRY CORNER WHEN A CROWD 0F PEOPLE
BECAN RUSHING PAST THEM FROM WILLIAM STREET SHOUTING THAT THE A.RMY WERE COMING IN. THEY WERE
FORCED 1JPTO THE ROSSVILLE END OF CHAMBERLAIN ST. AS HE PASSED EDEN STREET HE SAW SOLDIERS RUNNING
UP TOWARDS THE ROSSVILLE FLATS. AND AS RE CAME OUT INTO THE COURTYARD - HE SAW SOME PEOPLE
CARRYING AN INI tiRED WOMAN. HE HELPED CARRY HER (Ir WAS MARGARET DEER?) INTO A HOUSE AT THE TOP
1 HE DIDN'T HANG AROUND. IN A PANiC HE JOINED SEVERAL OTHER PEOPLE HUDDLING AGAINST A WALL AT TRE
JUNCTION OF CHQAMBERj,&Dq ST WITH TItE ROSSV lUI COURTYARD. HE STAYED THERE A WHILE AND HEARD
SHOOTING COMING FROM THE AREA WHERE WE KNOW
PIG HAD STOPPED. THERE WAS LITTLE SHELTER
WHERE EJE WAS HUDDLED- SO ONE BY ONETHOSE writ RIM BEGAN TO RUN DOWN THE WALL TOWARDS THE GAP
BETWEEN BLOCKS TWO AND THREE OF THE FLATS. fl'O OR THREE GUYS MADE ri' SAFELY BUT AS PATSY RAN HE
WAS Sitar AS HE DIVED FOR COVER OVER A SMALL WALL. HE DIDN'T REALISE HE'D BEEN SHOT UNTil. ANOfla RUNNER LANDED ON TOP OF HIM AND TOLD HIM HE'D BEEN SHOT IN THE BACK.

51 HE CRAWLED INTO THE GRAP BETWEEN THE TWO BLOCKS OF FLATS AND THEN WAS LED TO A HOUSE BEHIND BLOCK 2 IN JOSEPH PLACE. AN AMBULANCE WAS CALLED AND RE WENT TO HOSPITAL WHERE RE WAS FOUND TO
HAVE A WIDE BUT SUPERFICIAL. WOUND IN HiS BACK. IF HE HAD BEEN STANDING ERECT AT TEE TIME HE WOULD
PROBABLY HAVE BEEN ni fl, AS ri' WAS THE BULLET DIDN'T ENTER HIS CHEST CAVITY AND INSTEADIUST SLICED THE SKIN AT TRE TOP OF HIS BACK OPEN.

6!THERE LS A STILL PICTURE OF HIM LYING ON THE FLOOR IN TRE HOUSE IN JOSEPH PLACE. ASK THE MEMORIAL
COMMITTEE.

## ?Atrick Mckeever

HE WILL THINK ABOlII DOING A FORMAL INTERVIEW - BUT taoirr REPUSE OUF OF PEAR OP BEING IDENTIFIED BY
LOYALLnS
SAW PARAS KN1NG IN FIRING POS mou IN EDEN SF
SAW BERNARD MCGUIOAN SHOT & FIT -I fl) (BUT FACING "IU
WAY TOP CYTUH'. WITNESSES)
IJ AT THE TIME HE WAS A CHARGEHAND AT TRE BRITISH OXYGEN COMPANY. HE WAS NOT IN A POLiTICAL PARTY
BEFORE BLOODY SUNDAY - DESCRIBING HIMSELF AS A SOCIALIST AT THE TIME, HE WAS ALSO POLITICALLY CLOSE
TO SEIM FEIN (HE SUPFORTEb TItE IRA) BEFORE BLOODY SUNDAY. AI j FKWARDS HE JOINED SEIN FEIN. HE WAS
AGED 45 TREN. NOW HE'S 65 BUT LOOKS TEN YEARS OLDER. HE'S GOT A VERY STRONG ACCENT AND WOULD BE
HARD TO UNDERSTAND ON TV.

21 HE WAS WALKING UP CHAMBERLAIN STREET WREN HE HEARD SHOTS BEING FIRED. HE TRINES, FROM BEHIND
HIM IN WILLIAM STREET. HE SAW PARAS KNEELING IN FIRING POSITION AS HE PASSED EDEN ST. TRE SHOTS MADE
A CROWD OF PEOPLE RUN UP TOWARDS HIM IN A PANIC AND HE WAS FORCED TO RUN UP TO TRE TOP OF
CHAM BERLAIN STREET AND SAYS 11E WAS PUS RED 01FF INTO THE ROSS VU I E COURTYARD WHERE HE HEARD MORE
FIRING AND SAW MOPS PARAS IN A FIRING POSITION (BUT RE AGAIN DID NOT SEE ANY FIRE). HE HEARD NO SHOTS
COMING FROM TRE ROSSVILLE FLATS.

## Derry Interviews Patrick Mcveever Cozt.

RE HID BEHIND TRE CENTRE BLOCK 0F TRE FLATS - WHERE HE MET BERNARD MCGUIGAN AND SOME OTHER
PEOPLE. AfltR A WHILE SOMEONE ELSE JOINED THEM AND SAID SOME PEOPLE HAD BEEN SHOT AT THE
BARRICADE IN ROSSVP I
STREET AND NEEDED HELP. MCOIJIGAN SAID HE WOUW GO AND HELP THEM.

MCKEEVER TRIED TO DISSUADE }{Th4 BECAUSE TRE SHOOTING WAS S'IlLL GOING ON. BUT HE U4SIS L hO.

MCKEEVER THEN GAVE IHM A PIECE OF WHITE SHEET (WHICH BE KEPT ON HIM SOAKED IN VINEGAR IN CASE HE
GOT CAUGHT UP IN A RIOT. THE VINEGAR HELPS cOUNTERACr THE EFFECTS OP CS GAS)- MCGUIGAN WALKED 0171
BEHThJD THE CENTRE BLOCK OF TRE FLATS . AND WAS SHOT 111 THE BACK OFTUE READ. MCKEEVEIt SAYS RE WAS
FACING TUE BARRICADE IN ROSSVU TP STREET, WITH RIS BACK TO THE PERRY WALLS WHICH MUST HAVE
BEEN TRE LOCATION OF THE GUNMAN WHO U T wn HIM. QuEgrION:DOES'IBISTALI.YWEIT TUE PATBOI.DGLWS
RnOItF OF THE ANGLE OF ENTRY OP THE BULLEL?7)
4J HE DID KNOW MCGU1GAN TO SPEAIC TO - 11E SAYS 11E KNEW HIS BROTHER WELL AND HAl) STOPPED TO SPEAK
WITH BERN AR» IN TRE STREET A NUMBER OF TIMES . mir RE WASN'T CLOSE TO HIM. HE ALSO SAYS RE RAD NO
WEAPON ON 111M WREN HE SAW 111M.

## Ben'Y & William Curr4 C'Reggan No P00Mb Hilt Daughteit Nervy Mccoui« Is On

SAW DONAGNY & JOENSON SHOT & INJURED
-
DIDN'T GiVE EVIDENCE AT WIDGERY
Il NOT POlITICALLY ACTIVE AT TITE TIME - BUT DID SUPPORT THE AIMS OF NiCHA AND WENT ON MANY MARCHES.

ALSO SAY THEY SUPPORTED THE AlMS OF TUE IRA THEN. HE WAS UNEMPLOYED AT THE TIME - BErry HAD A PART TIME JOB IN A SHOP.

2] THEY SAW FIVE IS TO Il YEAR OLI» ON SOME wASTELAND THROWING STONES AT SOME SOLDIERS VIRO WERE
posrrlONED ON ROOFtOPS NEAR THE PRESBYtERIAN CHURCH. FOUR OF THEM CROSSED TO TITE OTHER SIDE OF
THE ROAD LEAVING ONE - BUBBLES DON ACHY - BENIND. RE FINIS RED TUROWING STONES.TURNE» AND WALKED
ACROSS THE ROAD WHEN HE WAS SHOT IN THE RIGHT THIGH. HE WASWAL}UNG AWASY FROM TRE SOLDIERS ON
THE ROOFtOPS AT THE TIME. 11E WAS SHOT BY A SOLDIER STANDING ZN A WINDOW OF A DERELICT BAKERY
BUILDING. BEtTY SAW DON AC}V( FJ
TO IHE GROUND AND THEN SITE STARTED SWEARING AT THE SOLDIER.

WILLIAM SAW TRE SOLDIER FIRING AFTER 11115. HE SAYS THREE OR FOUR SHOTS WERE FIRED IN ALL - AND HE SAW
TRE BULLETS LIFTING BTZS OF CONCRETE OFF TITE ROAD. JOHNSON WAS WALlUNG DOWN THE ROAD TOWARDS
DONAGHY TO REI)' HIM WHEN HE WAS ALSO SHOT - BY TWO BULLEtS. ONE IN TITE SHOULDER AND ONE IN TITE
LOWER LEG
31 DON ACHY WAS NOT THROWING NAiL BOMBS AND DID NOT RAVE A GUN. THEY DID NOT REAR ANY EXPLOSIONS
EU'HER. BEtTY SAYS THE SOLDIERS HAD A CLEAR VIEW OF HIM AND It MUST RAVE BEEN OBVIOUS THAT 14E WAS
ONLY THROWING STONES - AS RE WAS PiCKING THEM UP FROM THE WASTELAND. DON ACHY'S FOUR FRIENDS
CARRIED 1111,4 UP ABBEY ST (I) ACCOMPANIED BY A PRIEST (FATTIER CARLIN).

THEY FOLLOWED DON AGHY AND WAIVED UNTILTHEY HEAR]) THERE WEAS AN AMBULANCE ON rrs WAY. WHILE
THEY WEItE WArrING TITE MAIN FIRING STARTED.

TREY DIDN'T GIVE EVIDENCE AT WIDGERY BUT DU) GIVE A STATEMENT TO NICR.A AFTERWARDS.

## Mcuael Brady

.RE'S ARTICULAIt LOST HIS JOB AS A PADCER-DECORATORS BEC4USEOP HIS INJURIES.

## Shot & Umjrw In Tossvn.Is C0Ijicvyard As He Was Asoijt To Throw A Stone

Il WENT ON MARCH WTit FOUR OF HIS BROTHERS AND A CLOSE FRIEND. HEWAS A CIVIL RIG HI'S sUPPoRTER ONLY
- HE WASNT INVOLVED POLITIC ALLY AT THE TIME. HE TALICS OF THE EXCELLENT CARNIVAL-LIKE ATMOSPHERE
AT THE START 0F THE MARCH AND OF THE EFFORTS THE STEWARDS WERE MAKING TO KEEP TROUBLE OFF THE
MARCH BY KICKING OUT ANYONE FOUND WIlli SliCKS ETC.

## Derry Interviews Afl Braey Colt

HE WAS AJ(ONG THOSE STONING THE TROOPS AT THE Will TAM S'ERREr BABRmR. 'VF WAS LIKE A GAME OF
COWBOYS AND INDIANS' Ht SAYS. BUT HE RAN OFF UP ROSSVILLE STREET TO TRE FLATS WHEN TRE ARMY
BROUGHT OUTTHE WATPJt CANON, HE SAYS THERE WERE NO P105 IN EDEN PLAcE/PILOT Row WREN RE RAN PAST
TRAT AREA, HE GOT 5H01' WHEN HE HEARD (OR SOMEONE TOLl) HIM ABOUT) TRE SHOOTING AND 8$ LOOKED INTO TIlE
COURTYARD AND SAW HIS P4E,R NEIGHBOUR JOHN DUDDY LYING ON THE GROUND BEING HELPED BY TWO OR
THREE PEOPLE. RE SAW RED, PICKED UP TWO STONES LYING NEAR TIlt SMALL WALL WHICH HE WAS STANDING
BY AT TRE BACK OF BLOCK TWO, AND WAS ABOUT TO THROW THEM AT THE SOLDIERS WHEN HE WAS SHOT
BRADLEY THINKS REMUST RAVE BEEN RIT BY TWO BULLETS: ONE BROKE RIS LEFT FOREARM, THE 0111ER GRAZED
ifis STOMACH AND WENT THROUGH
S RImEr ARM WHICH RAS NEVER COMPLETELY RECOVERED.

DIDN'T NOTICE A GUNMAN EDONO 1115 WAY AWNO THE GARLE END OF ONE OP TifER CHAMBERLAIN STREET
ROUSES. 14E DIDN'T REAR ANY snOanno TOWARDS TUE ARMY.

        l THE NEXT THING HE REMEMBERS ¡5 BEING ZN MR O'CONNELJ..S HOUSE IN
                                                                                           HE DOESNI'ItEMEMBBR
       110W RE GOT THERE. FROM THERE RE WAS EVENTUALLY TAREN TO HOSPrrAL.
SRE

## Eeconfltj Ctei) Cotwersauon With Two Official Ira Mfl On 1416/91

A: 'YOU RAVE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT fi' WAS LIKE AT THE TIME. THE WHOLE OF TUIS DISTRICT WAS A NO GO
AREA. THERE WERE CONTiNUAI. PATROLS OF ARMED MEN IN CARS- THEY DROVE AROUND AT WILL. IT WAS VERY
CASUAL, SO CASUAj THEY WOULD OFTEN LEAVE THEW. CARS - WEAPONS IN THEM - WHILE THEY WENT IN
SOMEONE'S HOUSE FOR A CUP OF TEA OB, DOWN TOTHE PUB FOR A DRINK. &TF WREN ET CAME TO MARCHES OR
PROSECCIONS
fi' WAS UNDERSTOOD THAT MILrTAIY ORGANISATIONS KEPT CLEAR.

Q: WIlY WAS TRAT t A:
'LOOK - EVERYONE KNOWS EVERYONE ELSE HERE ANt) WHILE WE DID HAVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT 0F
CONTROL, WE ALWAYS WORflD UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT W WE WENT TOO PAR WE'D BE 01FF, YOUR
BROTHERS OR MOTHERS OR SISTERS WOULD BE INVOLVED IN MARCHES AND NOCHE WANTED TO CAUSE THEIR
DEATRS.TRE RISK WAS 3tJsflOo DANOflOUS. SO YOUR NEfl DOOR NEIGHBOURS RAD A SORT OP VETO ON WHAT
YOU DID BECAUSE, AFTER ALL, WE LIVED IN THE AREA AS WFLI

## Q: But You Did Often Use Riots As A Cover For Attacke?

A: 'WE DID TARE ADVANTAGE QE Riais - BUT ITS NOT THE WAY THE BRiTISH MEDIA PORTRAY if. WE DIDWT
ORCHESTRATE THEM, SURE, W SOME 1(105 WERE RiOTING IN AN AREA IN WEICH RE RAD ALREADY PLANNED AN
ATTACK, WE MiGHT ASK THEM TO LEAVE. BUT WE DIDN'T SEI' UP RIOTS.

Q: SO YOU MADE AN AGREfl.Wy WITH THE CIVIL RIGHTS ORGANISERS NOT TO USE THE MARCH AS AN ECCUSE
TO LAUNCH AN ATTACK ON TUE ARMY t

A: WELL, - IT WASN'T AJ4YFIIU4G LIKE AS FORMAL AS THAT. LOOKE 'EVERYBODY HERE KNEW EVERYBODY ELSE.
THE CIVIL RIGHTS OROANISERS lC$E
                                   THE IRA PEOPLE AND THEY MET AND TAUCED AND INFORMALLY THEY
WOULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE WAS GOING TO BE NO MILITARY ACTION THAT DAY- TRE CIVIL RIGHTS
PEOPLE WANTED ri To BE A NON'POLTflCALMARCH AND TRE IRA SUPPORTED THAT WISH. SO WE TOLD ALL OUR.
ARMED VEHICLE PATROLS TO STAY 017F OP THE BOGSIDE. THE CARS AND WEAPONS WERE LEFT IN THE CREGGAN.
ANYWAY, n' WOULD HAVE BEEN ILLOGICAL TO RAVE RAD OUR CABS
                                                              IN THE MIDDLE OP THE MARCH. ROW
WOULD WE HAVE USED THEM 7 THEY WOULD RAVE BEEN STUCK IN THE MIDDLE OF TRE CROWD. IF TRE BRaS
HAD HAD ANY INTELLIGENCE AT ALL THEY WOULD HAVE REALISED THAT TIlE IRA WOUlDN'T HAVE BEEN OUF
THAT DAY,
Q: HOW MANY WEAPONS Dli) YOU HAVE ThI THE Cfl'Y At THAT TIME?

A: OR, NOT MORE THAN TWO DOZEN AT TRE MOST.

Q: YOU SAY YOU ORDERED YOUR MEN TO LEAVE THEIR WEAPONS AT HOME BUT WHAT $QTJ
Ø$GjJNMJ.14 WHO
WAS FiLMED ATTREGARLE END OPTE CHAMBERLAIN STREET ROUSES?

A: HE DEPINrItLy WASN'T AN OFFICIAL IRA MEMBER.

ECONflUCTED CONVERSATION WITH TWO OFFICIAL IRA MEN 0H 14/6/91 coifl.

Q: COULD n' RAVE BEEN A COWBOY MEMBa SOMEONE WITH p. GRIEVANCE OR SOMEONE WHO WANTED TO BE
A HERO AND TAKE A POT SHOT AT TRE SOLDIERS?

A: THERE IS ALWAYS TRAT POSSIBIlITY, IT cotiui HAVE BEEN ANYTHING i SUPPOSE - SOMEONE WHO JUST HAD
A WEAPON Tht THEIR HOUSE SAW WHAT WAS HAPPENING, CLAPPED IT AND RAN OUT.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE SHOOTING ENDED? WERE YOU TEMPTED TO RESPOND?

A: WELl, THE MOST DAMEDIATE TASK OF EVERYONE THERE WAS TO CHECK TRAT YOUR OWN FAMILY WAS INTACT
AND THAT EVERYONE YOU KNEW WAS ALRIGHT. ri WASN'T UNTIL LATER THAT NIGHT THAT WE TOOK STOCK
OF THE SITUATION AND THOUGHT ABOLiT THE POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS AND TALKED ABOUT WHAT WE SHOULD
DO. WE DIDN'T RESPOND THAT DAY AT ALL
Q: WHAT ABC)I.Tr TRE CAR LOAD OF ARMFx MEN SEEN DRIVING INTO GLEN FADA PARK, GEtTING OUT, SHOOTING
THEIR WEAONS AND DRIVING OFF AGAIN?

WEREN'T OUT PEOPLE. DEFINiTELY NOT.

## Pa:Trey Faddy Walsh

                                GOOD STORY - HA
                                                   UP UEIJTEÌ'IANT FIRQJGOYEa-BEADS TALE BUT
DENIES THERE WAS A BUGE CROWD THREATENING HIM. ALSO SAW PADDY DOHERTY FALL. NOTA VERY AZflCU-
LATE MAN - STRONG ACCENT WO. NO CONVIerIONS (BUT FA1fl IN litA).

SAW SOLDIER FIRE INTO BRICKWORK ABOVE 000aWAY IN CHAMBERLAIN ST

SAW PADDY DOHERTY FALL

## Not At Widgsty

1] WAS A SUPPORTER OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, NOT AN AcnVISt. HE WAS ABOUT 35 AT THE TIME AND
SAYS 11E WAS TRYING TO CAfl4 THE YOUNGER E( )()Vfl4 (I'M NOT SURE THAT i EWEVE THE). HE WAS STAND-
ING AT THE JUNCTION OF ROSSVffJE STR r_Er »«) WTfljU4 STREET WHEN SOMEONE SHOUTED THAT SOLDIERS
WERE COMING IN TO THE BOGS IDE. EVERYONE p. 11E w up CILASMBERLAIN STREET AND INSTEAD OF
CONTINUING WifR THE CROWD ON UPTO TIlE ROSSVILLE FLATS, HE STOOD IN TRE DOORWAY OF A BOOKIES SHOP
SiTUATED ON THE CORNER OF EDEN STREET AND CHAMBERLAIN STREET.

II HE SAYS TRAT THE USE OF CS Gè PLUS THE FRUSTRATION OF NOT BEING ABLE TO GO ONTO THE GUILD BALL
RAD BY THEN PROVOKE!) 111M INTO THROWING STONES AT THE APJ4Y. RE SAW AN OLD LADY COME OUT OF A
HOUSE IN CI4fl4BERLAD4 ST, (ON THE OTREIt SIDE OF THE ROAD TO EDEN ST.) HE WENT TO WARN HER TO GO
BACK IN BECAUSE THERE WERE SOLDIERS IN THE BOGSIDE WHEN A BULLET RiT THE BRICKWORK ABOVE TRE
FANLIGHT ABOVE HER DOORWAY. HE SAYS THERE WAS NO LARGE CROWD IN THE AREA AT THIS MOMENT - MOST
PEOPLE HAD ALREADY GONE UP To THE COURTYARD. THE ONLY PEOPLE 11E REMEMBERS WHEN THIS SHOT WAS
FIRED WERE TRE OLD WOMAJq AND A CAMERAMAN COMING DOWN HARVEY STREET.

RE RAN BACK INTO THE DOORWAY AFTER THIS SHOT WAR FIRED - SAW TWO BOYS RUNNING ACROSS EDEN PLACE, SHOUTED OVER HERB, QUICIC' BUT TRE BOYS RAN ON OUT OP SIGHT. THEN RE HEARD ANOTRER SHOT (BITT HE
DOESN'T IG'IOW WHO FIRED iT OR WHERE IT WENT). THEN HE SAW A SOLDIER ON ONE KNEE WITH A RIFLE LINED
lip ON His SHOULDER READY TO SHOOT. n' WAß POINTED TOWARDS THE ROSS VILLE FLATS. HE DIDN'T SEE
TRE SOLDIER SHOOT, XflE 'WAS ¡p,E!flY
flfl l'RE S(flNfl SHOT HE'D HEARD SO irs A FAIR BEE THAT
THIS SOlDIER RAD FIRE) ONE SHOT UP TOWARDS THE ROSSVILLE FLATS- POSS1RLE rl' WAS
FIRING AT
MARAGRET Dar?)
3J INSTEAD PADDY WALSH THREW A BRICK AT THE SOLDIER AND RAN OFF UP CHAMBERLAIN STREET. ACROSS THE
COURTYARD AND HEADED STRAIGHT FOR TIlE CENTRE BLOCK. HE SAYS HE HEARD SR DOTING AS HE RAN ACROSS, GOT THROUGH THE GAP BETWEEN BLOCKS ONE AND TWO AND WENT ROUND TO THE FRONT OP THE CENTRE BLOACK BY JOSEPH PLACE. HE HEARD FEET RUNNING BEHIND RIM SOMEONE SHOUTED 'GET DOWN - THEY'RE
SHOOTING' AN!) AS HE HiTTRE DECK HESAW SOMEONE PALL. Ti WAS PADDY DOREWTY. lIE HADN'T SEEN HIM SHOT
- ONLY GLIMPSE!) THE END OF HIS FALL TO THE GROUND. HE CRAWLED OUT TO HELP HIM BUT SAW THAT HE WAS
DEAD. HE SAYS HE'S CERTAIN THERE WAS NOTHING IN RIS HANDS AS HE FELL HE ALSO DIDN'T HAVE ANY
WEAPONS/BOMBS ON 111M BECAUSE RE LOOKED IN HIS POCKETS. (WHEN I ASKED HIM wEt' - AT FIRST 0E SAID HE
WAS LOOF3NG TO SEE IF HE HAI) A (JUN. WHEN I ASKED HIM WHAT BE MEANT HE SUGUThY CHANCE) THIS AND
SAW HE TROUGET HE MIGHT BE ARMED.

THEN HE SAID HE WAS LOORDiG POR HIS ROSARY READS ANDFOUND NOTHEJO BUT MONEY. ALL OF WRICR MA
ME A LYTTLE SUSPICIOUS! flxnczjt,*jn.j.y GIVEN His FATHER'S WA t&cmtowm. SEE 6) AFrER THAT HE SAW A
COUPLE OP FIRST All) PEOPLE ArqI) POINTED THEM IN DOHERTY'S DIRECTION.

4J WALSH TEEN WALKED TOWARDS TITE GABLE END 0F BLOCK ONE - THE SHOOTING HAD ENDED - ON THE WAY HE
SAW BARNEY MCGmGA.N LYING NEAR THE GAP BETWEEN BLOCKS ONEAND TWO. HE'D ALREADY BEEN COVERED
UP BY AN AMBULANCEMAN 11E CAN'T REMEMBER CLEARLY WHAT HE DID NEfl. RE TALKS VAGUELY OP HELPING
TO CARRY PADDY DOHERTY AT SOME POINT -AND OF GOING INTO A HOUSE TO WASH HIMSELF.

5] RE DIDN'T SUPPORT THE IRA BEFORE BLOODY SUNDAY- HE SAYS THE IRA WERE A LAUGH IN THE TOWN THEN
BUT AFTERWARDS 'IF I RAD BEEN YOUNG ENOLJGRI WOULD HAVE IOINEDTHE PROVOS. I WAS VERY Bu ihM. TEERE
WEREN'T EVEN ANY APOLOGIES FOR WHAT THEY DiD. EVERYONE itisr TOOK TRE ARMY'S SLOE.'
6J HE SAYS THE ONLY CONVICTION RE'S oar 15 FOR BEING DRUNK BUT RIS FATHER WAS IN THE IRA MANY YEARS
AGO.

711 HE WASNI' AT THE WIDGERY TRIBUNAL.

## Rtm00Re Wflwessed The Shooting 0F Michaa Bridge, Bernard Mcguigan

SAW THE BODIES 0F PADDY D0fl & 11116E GILMOUR.

## Check Whether Re Was At Widgery Is Nor

1] WENT ON THE MARCH WiTH A COUPLE OF FRIENDS. HE WAS 39 THEN AND A PROCESS MECHANIC WITH DUPONT.

HE DIDN'T GO AS EAR AS WILLIAM STREET - HE GOT TO THE WILLIAM STREET BAKERY AND TURNED OFF TOWARDS
THE KOSSVU.LE FLATS. HE GOT TO THE COURTYARD AND SAW TWO pids COMING FROM LITTLE JAMES STREET UP
ROSSVILLE STREET. PEOPLE WERE RUNNING IN FRONT OF THEM TOWARDS TIlE FLATS. RE ALSO SAW SOLDIERS ON
FOCI' COMING UP CHAMBERLAIN STREET. HE DISTINCTLY REMEMBERS THE FUNNY HATS 'fIE PARAS BAD ON AND
WHAT lIE CALLS THEIR FUNNY TAILED COATS (7)
2J HE HEARD RUBBER B
BEING FIRED - AND THEN SAW A PARA POTh(TUJG A RIFLE AS IF ABOUT TO FIRE. THEN
HE LOOKED AT MICHAEL BRIDGE WHO WAS WAVING HIS ARMS IN TEE AIR. BRIDGE DEFINITELY DU) NOT HAVE A GUN BUT HE CAN'T REMEMBER WHETHER HE WAS THROWING STONES AT THE TIME. THEN HE SAW BRIDGE SHOT
IN TRE LEG 'I) TO CHECK WE THE SOLDIER WAS AND CONFIRM TRAT HE SAW BRIDGE FALL,)
3J MOORE RAN IN FEAR AND TRIED TO 6FF OUT BETWEEN THE GAP IN BLOCKS ONE AND TWO. BUT THERE WERE
LOADS OF OTHER PEOPLE PANICING AND TRYING TO DO THE SAME, THERE WAS A LOT OF SHOOTING THEN AND IN
HE PANIC RE LOST HIS TWO FRIENDS (THEY'D RUN A DIFFERENT WAY). HE MADE Ti THROUGH THE GAP AND STOOD
617 OTHERS, HIDING BEHIND THE PHONE BOX FOR SHELTER. THE SHOOTING INTENSIFIED. THERE WERE LOTS
OF PEOPLE LYING DOWN - INCLUDING A MAN (HUGH GILMOUR) WHO HAD BEEN SHOT. HE RAN OUI' TO LOOK AT HIM
'SAYS RE LOOKED A TERRIBLE COLOUR BUT THERE WAS A FiRST AID MAN wrni HIM So HE RAN BACK TO TIlE
PHONE BOX.

4J ONE OF THOSE SHELTERING WITH RIM (BERNARD MCGUIGAN) RAN OUT FROM THE PRONE BOX. SOMEONE
SHOUTED 'DONT GO' AND AS THEY DID SO MCOUIGAN WAS SHOT. MOORE SAW HIM FALL DOWN WITH HALF HIS
FACE BLOWN AWAY. 'HE DEFINITELY HAD NO GUNS - NO STONES - NOTHING. HE WAS FRIGHTENED, JUST LIKE I
WAS.' SAYS MOORE. MCGUIGAN WAS 511CM' AS RE WAS RUNNING TOWARDS JOSEPH PLACE - IEEE WAS FACING THE
DERRY WALLS. MOORE SAYS HE WAS NOW TOO FRIGHTENED TO HELP RIM. HE JUST WATCHED RIM BLEED TO
DEATH AND WAITED FOR THE SHOOTING TO STOP, AFTER TUE SHOOTING HAD DEED DOWN HE SAW PADDY DOHERTY LYING DEAD ON THE GROUND. THEN RE WENT
ROME FEELING SICK AND Bfl.

RE DIDN'T WITNESS ANY SHOOTINGS ON THE BARRICADE - NETRER DID HE SEE ANY BODIES BEING PICKED UP.

ALTHOUGH HE DOES REMEMBER SEEING SOME INJURED BEING CARRIED.

'I COULDN'T FORGIVE THE PARAS THEN AND FOR A LONG TIME I COULDN'T EVEN LOOK AT A BRITISH SOLDIER.

BUT NOW VM NOT Bit-z hit. TIME'S A GREAT HEALER.' HE SAYS

## Ernie Moore Cad.

7] RE VOTES SDLP NOW AND SAYS HE'S AGAINST VIOLENCE (AND WAS THEN AS WELL) AND WANTS A PEACEFUL
REUNIFICATION OF IRELAND. AT THE TIME SUCH THOUGHTS WERE FAR FROM HIS MINDHIS MAIN CONCERN THEN
WAS OBTAINiNG CIVIL RIGHTS AND FAIR PLAY FOrRE CATHOLIC COMMUNITY. IlE SAYS BLOODY SUNDAYDIDN7 TEMP HIM TO JOIN THE IRA. 'BUT IF I HAD BEEN YOUNGER AND UNMARRIED THEN I DON'T KNOW WHAT I MIGRI'
RAVE DORt«
SI RE SAYS RE'S car NO CRIMINAL RECORD.

## Charlie Morrison Civil Rights Acflvt Involved In The Orgaj4Ising 0F The March

SAW SOLDIERS FIRING TOWARDS THE BARRICADE FROM GABLE END OF BLOCK 0NE ROSSVIILE FIATS.

Ii THEY WERE GOOD DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS TOTALLY OPPOSED TO VIOLENCE. YES. THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE
FROM THE REPUBLICAN CLUBS INVOLVED SliT THEY KNEW THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENt WAS A PEACEFUL
ORG ANIS AT1ON DEDICATEDTO PEACEFULPItOTEST. AND IT WAS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT THE IRA HAD ACREED
NOT TO USE TRE MARCH AS AN EXCUSE FOR VIOLENcE."
2I RE DIDN'T WItNESS MflTh ING OF GREAT CONSEQUENCE - HE DEFINITELY SAW SOLDIERS SHOOTING AS RE RAN
TO GEl' THROUGH TRE GAY BETWEEN THE ROS SVILLE FIATS, ¡JE REMEM BERS SEEING TRE GUNS JERK UPWAWS
AS TRE SOLDIERS FIRED. ONE SOLDIER WAS STANDING AT THE GABLE END OF BLOCK ONE AND WAS FIRING ON ONE
KNEE TOWARDS THE BARRICADE
RE ALSO SAW SOMEONE (11E DOESN'T KNOW WHO) FALL AS IP HE HAD BEEN SHOT BUT DOESN'T KNOW WHERE
HE WAS HIT.

RESAYS HE FELT "SHOCKED AND cutir AFTER THE SHOOTINGS ANDTHAT W HE HADKNOWN THAT WAS GOING
TO HAPPEN HE WOULD NEVER RAVE fliT PEOPLE ON TUE STREEtS THAT DAY.

## Frank Curtan

AUTROt 'DEnY - COUNTDOWN TO DISASTER".

SAYS Ntantha LAGAN Molt MACLflLAND KNEW PARAS WERE GOING IN.

I] CURRAN SAYS RE'S A FRIEND OF LAGAN'S WHO RAS TOLD HIM THAT NEITHER HE (LACAN) NOR MACCLELLAND
KNEW THE PARAS RAD BEEN ORDERED IN. HE ALSO SAYS THAT WILE ORI) DENIES GIVING THE ORDER TO SEND THEM
IN (LI THIS RIGHT 1) WHICH LEAVE FORD AS TRE CULPRiT AS FORi) WAS IN TRE AREA AS AN OBSERVER. CURRAN
IS A CONSPIRACY THEORY MAN AND THINKS TRE PARAS WERE BROUGHT IN DELIBERATELY TO KILL. "BLOODY
SUNDAY WAS A CATALYST AND THOSE RESPONSIBLE FOR SENDING 114 THE PARAS WERE ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR HUNDREDS OF DEATHS OVER TRE NEXT FEW YEARS." SAYS CURRAN.

## Pr 780M As Mcc Ab

HE SAW lfl BODIES IN TRE MORGUE & SAW SOLDIERS UNLßAD MORE BODIES FROM A HG.

## Dii) Not Give Evidence At Tre Widgs(Y Theunal

I] HE WENT TO KELP THE WOUNDED. SAYS THE PARAS LOOKED VERY BELLIGERENT WREN HE SAW THEM 'LIKE GHoULS". HE TOOK A SLIGHTLY INJURED MAN BACK TO HIS SURGERY - GAVE HIM FIRST AID- AND THEN DROVE
TO ALTNAGAVIN HOSPITAL.

2) HE SAW 7 DEAD MEN - SOME LYING ON THE FLOOR, SOME IN THE COOLER. RE SAW BARNEY MCGUIGAN WHO RE
REMEMB ERS TO HAVE BEEN 111 AN AWFUL STATE.

3] A PIG WAS BROUGHT TO THE MORGUE AND HE SAW SOLDIERS UN WADING 6 MORE BODIES. RE SAYS THEY WERE
ROWING THEM BY THE I-i AND ARMS BUT CANNOT REMEMBER WHETHER THEY WERE BEING HELD BY THEIR
RANDS.

## ¡Orn O'Eane Witnessed Shooting 0F James Wray; Gerry Doflflr; Gerry Mcktnney Saw Soldiers Uffl]46 The Dead And Throwing 14 'Like Catfir Into Tue Pigs

DID NOT APPEAR AT WIDGERY. I] HE WAS AGED 31 ThEN AND WENT 014 MARCH wrrn HIS BROTHER-IN-LAW GERRY MCICINNEY, FIE SAYS HE DIDNT
REALISE THE MARCH WAS GOING TO BE REROUTED AND ENDED UP BY T}j WILUA}4 STREET BARRIER. HE SAYS HE
WAS NOT TAKING PART IN WE RIOT AND DIDNT THROW STONES HE DIDN"r WANT to GEl' SOAKED BY THE WATER
CANNON AND SO THE TWO 0F THEM IzFr.WEN-r UP BACK UP WILLIAM STREEF AND TURNED INTO COLUMBCLLE
COURT çro AVOn) THE CROWD IN ROS SVILLE STREET AND GEl' TO FREE DERRY CORNER).

2 HE SAW A SOLDIER ON THE ROOF OF STEVENSON'S BAKERY AND AS FIE WALKED AWAY HE HEARD A SHOT -
ABOUT TEN MINUTES BEFORE TIlE MAIN SHOOTING. HE DOESN'T IQ'JOW WHICH DIRECTION [F CAME FROM. BUT HE DIDN'T HEAR ANY EXPLOSIONS AT THAT 11MB.

31 HE WAUCED BACK ONTO ROSSVTT T P STREET FROM KEILS WALK - AT WHICH POINT THE SHOOTING STARTED.

EVERYONE WAS RUNNING AWAY - SCATTERING AND THEY HEADED FOR GLENPADA PAI1K VIA THE BARRICADE IN
ROSSVILLE STREET (BUT HE DON'T SEE ANYONE BEING SHOT ON THE BARRICADE BUT REMEMBERS SEEING SOME
WHO HAD BEEN SHOT THERE BEING PULLED ROUND AWAY FROM TRE BARRICADE TOWARDS THE END OF THE
GLENFADA BLOCK). THEY RAN PAST THE GABLE END OF THE GLENFADA PARK BLOCK NEAREST ROSSVILLE STREET.

HE STOOD AT THE GABLE END FOR A WHILE.

1 WHILE STANDING AT THE GABLE END HE SAW SOLDIERS LIFTING THE DEAS INTO A PIG STANDING BY 'filE
BARRICADE. BE SAYS THEY PICKED UP THE BODIES 'LUCE CATItE' AND THREW THEM INTO THE PIG - ROWING
THEM BY THE LEGS, ARMS, HAIR OR HANDS). THE SOLDIERS DOING THIS WERE CARRYING RIFLES IN THEIR RANDS.

HE CANT REMEMBER HOW MANY BODIES THEY THREW IN - THINKS IT WAS FOUR OR EWE.

5] TREN HE RAN FROM THE GABLE END fl'TTO CLANFADA PARK WITH BETWEEN IO AND 15 OTHERS. AS THEY RAN
THROUGH THE COURTYARD THEY WERE 5H01' AT BY A SOLDIER IN THE FAR CORNER. HE WAS STANDING WITH A RIFLE TO HIS SHOULDER. HE SAYS HE DIDN'T SEE ANYONE THROWING STONES OR NAIL BOMBS OR CARRYING A
WEAPON. 'THERE WASN'T ANYONETO THROW STONES AT,' HE SAYS. 'AND I COULDN'T IMAGINE TRItOWING STONES
AT A SOLDIER IN THE CORNER POINTING A RIFLE At US'. HE SAW THE SOLDIER SHOOT - AND HE SAW ¡AMES WRAY
FALL (HE WAS LOOKING BACK AS HE RAD JUST GOT BEHIND THE GABLE END OF THE BLOCK NEAREST THE BULLET HOLES IN GLANFADA PARK AND WAS OUT OF THE LINE OF FIRE).

6j BETWEEN SUC AND TEN PEOPLE WERE LEFT HUDDLING BEHIND THIS BUILDING. HE SAW WRAY REACH OUT HIS
HAND FOR HELP - AND AS HE DOSO ANOTHER SHOT RANG OUT AND WRAY'S BODY JUMPED. fl' WAS MERCILESS'.

HE SAYS. 'WE KNEW THEN HE HAD TO BE DEAD.'
71 GERRY DON AGHY THEN SUGGESTED THEY COULD GET OUT BY RUNNING ACROSS TO ABBEY PARK. HE TRIED TO
DO THIS - AND AS HE RAN HE WAS SHOT IN THE LEFT HAND SIDE. HE SPUN ROUND LU A JUMPING JENNY, GRABBED HIMSELF IN TRE STOMACH AND FELL OVER.' HE HAD MarKING IN HIS HANDS AT ALL AND HFS PRzrrY
CERTAIN HE HAD NOTHING IN HIS POCKETh Efl'HER. ('I WOULDN'T BAVE EVEN THOUGRTTO LOOK TO SEE IP HE RAD
ANYTHING IN HIS POCKETS EVEN IF HE HAD, HOW WAS Z TO KNOW WHAT THEY WEItE W HE DID HAVE THEM ?

ASKS O'KANE.

83 SHORTLY AFTER THIS RIS BROTHER-IN-LAW GERRY MCICINNEY WALKED CAUTIOUSLY OUTTOWARDS ABBEY PARK.

HE DECIDED TO MOVE BECAUSE THEY WERE PRESENTiNG AN OPEN TARGET WHERE THEY WERE AND WERE
WORRIED ABOUT OTHER. SOLDIERS COMING NEAR THEM. HE SAYS PANIC AND PEAR MADE RIM MOVE. HE WANTED
GERRY 70 WAlT.

GERRY SAID HE RAD TO GET OUF OF THERE. AS HE WALKED SLOWLY ACROSS THE opts AREA., JOHN BEGAN TO
FOLLOW HIM AT WHICH POINT GERRY SAW THE SOLDIER STILL BY THE BULLET HOLES- RAISED HIS HANDS IN THE
AIR. SHOUTED DON'T SHOOT. DON'T SHOOT.' AND WAS SHOT THROUGH THE LEFT SIDE. GERRY WAS STAN DINO ON
SOME STEPS A LITTLE ABOVE THE SOLDIER. JOHN FROZE. HIS BROTHER-IN-LAW FELL ON HIS BACK. BLESSED
HIMSELF AND SAID 'JESUS. ¡ESUr AND JOINED HIS HANDSTOGEFHER IN PRAYER, HE THEN SAW TRE SOLDIER WHO
WAS DOING TIlE SHOOTING- STANDING NEAR THE BULLET HOLES IN GLENFADA PARK. THEY WERE DETERMINED
TO GO IN AND KILL. THAT WAS CERTAIN FROM THE VICIOUSNESS AND COLD-BLOODEDNESS OF THEIR APPROACH.

PEOPLE WERE SHOT IN THE BACK? HE SAYS.

AFTER THAT JOHN MANAGED TO GET INTO A HOUSE BY CLIMBING IN A BEDROOM WINDOW AND HE STAYED THERE
UNTIl. THE SHOOTING STOPPED. SOMEONE (MRS RUDD OR HUDD) LATER TOLD HIM TRAT A SOLDIER STANDING
BEHIND HIM AT THE OTHER END OP THE BLOCK WAS ABOUT TO SHOOT HIM AT ONE POINT BUT RAD HIS GUN
PULLED DOWN BY AN OFFICER.

## John Otane Coul

93 BLOODY SUNDAY'HA]) A tRRIBLE EFFECr ON HIM. 13E SAYS HE WENT CT THE MORGUE TO flND RIS BRanlER-
IN-LAW AND FOUND TRE POLICE THERE SNIGGERING TRERE WERE LOTS OF BODIES ON THE FLOOR COVERED IN
BLOOD-SPATTERED SWEETS, I'LL NEVER FORGET THAT SCENE.'
103 HE SAYS THE ONLY RECORD lIE'S GOT iSA MOTORING OFFENCE AND LIERAS NOTHING TO DC) WITH THE IRA OR
WrrH SINN FEIN.

## Netlmccaffezty

SAW TWO PROVO GUNMEN NEAR FREE DEPRY CORNER BEFORE SHOOTING STARTED.

SAW 3 AMES WRAY SHOT & ONE UIML&( 1Jt4NA)JØ) PERSON SHOT.

SAW A SOLDIER PIRE AT THE FEET OF A REI) CROSS WOMAN.

## Says Paddy Doherty Was In The Ira.

Il WENT ON MARCH WITH TWO PRIEN DS.THEY WERE WALKING ON DERRY WALLS EARLIER ON THAT DAY, PASSING
SOME SOLDIERS WHEN ONE OP THEM SAmt Er'S A NICE DAY FOR A LULLING?

## 0

21 BEFORE THE MEETING STARTED AT FREE DERRY CORNER - SHE WENT RfIt THE COURTYARD 0E A COMPLEX OF
FLAT NEXT TO FDC AND OPPOSrT THE BOGS IDE INtl. SHE SAW TWO TEENAGERS WITH RWLES AND WENT OVER TO
THEM WITH A FEW OTHER PEOPLE. 513E TOLD flIÑt TO GET RID OF THEM OR SHE'D CALL MARTIN MCOUINNESS.

SHE DID IN FAa SPEAK TO HIM AFTER THIS AND SAYS HE WAS FURIOUS. WHEN SUE RETURNED A LItTLE LATER TRETWO MEN RAD GONE.

33 sHE THEN MADE HER WAY tACK DOWN PQSSVUSE STREET TO filE BARRICADE AND SAT ON A WALL NEXT XO
GLENFADA PARK (NEAR TRE BARRICADE) JUST BEFORE BERN ADElTE SPOKE UP A FREE DERRY CORNER. AS SHE
STARTED SPEAKING 511E SAW TRE SOLDIERS COMING INTO THE BOOSIDE IN PIGS AND ON FOOT. . SHE HEARD
SOUNDS THAT SHETHOUGUT WERE RUBBER BULLETS BEING FIRED- AND TH EN SAW FOUR GUYS ON THE BARRICADE
FAIL DOWN. ALL POUR WERE STANDING AT THE BARRICADE WATH -CHINO THE SOLDIERS - THEY WERE NOT
THROWING STONES NOR DID THEY RAVE ANY WEAPONS ON THEM.

43 SHE GOT SCARED - AND flN (WITH HER FRIENDS) UflO GLENFADA PARK AND POLJNDEDON A WOMAN'S FRONT DOOR IN THE BLOCK AT TIlE END OF WHICH TODAY ARE THE BULLET HOLES. AN ELDERLY WOMAN LEt THEM IN
AND OPFERE) TO MIXE THEM TEA. THRJ TI3EY I{flRD RIPLE SHOTS. SHE LOOKED OUT OF TRE WINDOW AND SAW
A MAil RUNNING UP TRE PATH TOW A,PJZ TIlE DOOR SHOrtING TO THEM TO OPEN THE DOOR. SHE SAW A SOLDIER
IN TRE FAR CORNER OF GLENFADA PARK TAKE AIM AND FIRE AT TRE MAN (JAMES WRAY). WRAY CONTD4UEDTO
ASK HER TO LET HIM IN - SHE COULDN'T BECAUSE SHE WAS TOO SCARED.

A SECOND MAN WAS SHOT BEHIND WPAY. MCCAFFERTY 'THEN PAY ON TIlE FLOOR AND REMEMBERS HEARING THE
BATHROOM WINDOW SHATTERING 1t3 A SHOT WAS FIRE) AT THE HOUSE. SHE AlSO SAW A RED CROSS WOMAN
RUNNING TO HELP WRAY BEING MADE TO DANCV AS A SOLDIER FIRED AT HER Itti.

53 SHE SAYS IT WAS GENERAL KNOWLEDGE THEN THAT PADDY DOHERTY WAS IN THE IRA.

63 BEFORE BLOODY SUNDAY SHE WAS OPPOS ED TO THE IRA. AFTERWARDS BECAME CONVINCED SHE NEEDED THEIR
PROTECTION. i THOUGHT: JESUS CHRIST - ALL THE CUCHES ABOUT BRITISH HISTORY ARE TRUE - THEY'LL SHOOT
YOU TO HAVE THEIR WAY- ri' HAD A PROFOUND EFFECT ON MY POLITICS. NOW I SUPPORT THE ARMED STRUGGLE?

71 SHE RAS ONLY GOT A CIVIL RIGHTS CONVICTION FOR OCCUPYING A BUILDING BUT pijflY ANNOUNCED HER
SUPPORT FOR filE IRA AND WAS PROMPTLY BANNED BY RTE (ON TUE DAY OF TRE ENISKILLEN BOMBING)

## Huata Ni Dhombnajil & Patsy Murphy -

13 THEY BOTH HEARD NELL'S SOLDIER SAYING 'LOVELY DAY FOR A ICDLING'
23THEY BOTh CONFIRM NEWS GUNMEN STORY - BUT THEIR MEMORIES AREN'T AS GOOD AS NELL'S NUALA THINKS
THEY WERE CARRYING REVOLVERS NOT RIFLES. BUT THEY AGREE THEY WERE BOTH YOUNG MEN.

31 PATSY SAYS SHE REMEMBERS PEOPLE IN THE CROWD SAYING THAT SOMEONE HAD OPENED UP ON THE SOLDIERS
FIRST.

## Nuala Nl Dhomhn Ailla Pauy Murphy Cod.

1 NEITHER OP THEM REMEMBERS SEEING THE MEN ON THE BARRiCADE FALLING AS THEY WERE SHOT BUT THEY
DO REMEMBER SEEING THEM LYING ON THE GROUND AFTERWARDS 53 NUALA Q) REMEMBERS SEEING A SOLDIER. FIID4G IN GLENFADA PARK - liE WASSTANDThIG 114 THE FAR CORNER
(WHERE THE IRA CAR IS MARKED ON THE MAPS.)

## Tpx Marfln Convu4Ced Op No Vioiflcr Agreement Wifr Ira Convinced Trat Firing Was Coming From Derily Walls

WAS FIRED ON AS HE PICKS) UP ItUURED JOSEPH MABON
11
WAS NICRAS PRO AND ONE 0F TRE MARCH COORDINATORS.

2]
SAYS THERE IS NO DOUBT TRAT BOTH WINGS OF THE IRA HAI) AGREED TO KEEP OUT OF ThE MARCH -
BECAUSE NICRA OFFICIALS (FRED BOND WAS ONE OF THEM) HAD S?OKEI4 TO IRA REPRESENTATIVES AND RECEIVED
ASSURANCES THAT THEY WOULD KEEP out. HE SAYS THEY WERE DErERMINED TO AVOID ANY CONFRONTATION
OF THIS NATURE - AND EVEN POSTED LOOKOUTS AHEAD ON TRE MARCH ROUTE TO WARN THEM (BY WALKIE
TAUGE) IF THEY SAW ANY SNU'ERS SFIlINO UP SO TRAT TRE ORGANISERS COULD REROUTE THE MARCHERS AWAY
FROM THAT AREA.

RE IS CONVICNEDTBE ARMY FIRED FiRST & TRAT THEY DID SO DELIBERATELY (IB IT WAS ORDERED FROM
A HIGH LEVEL WITHIN TRE ARMY) TO TEACH THE CATHOLICS A LESSON AT A TIME WHEN TUE PRESTIGE OF THE
BRIFISB ARMY WAS BEING DENTED BY THE NO GO AREAS IN bERRY.

41
RE HEARD THE SHOTSTHAT INJURED JOHNSON AND DONAGLEY (HE WAS STANDING AT THE NORTH END OF
TRE KEILS WALK BLOCK. IN COLUMCILLE COUVI) BUT DIDN'T SEE THE SHOOTING.

51
           HE HEARD TRE BEGINNING OF THE MAiN BULK OF TRE FIRING (HE WAS TREN IN ROSSVIT T P STREET NEAR
TRE SOUTHERN END OF KEILS WALIQ BUT SAYS THE SROOTINGBEGAN BEFORE TRE LT
                                                                                                                        IWO PIGS ARRIVED

## S.S. Witnesses- List Q&E From Those Interviewed By Us (21/6/91)

1f wtnesss gave evidence at Widger, shown
                                           r
                                             (W) aEter naue
the first time they are Ltad but not thareafter.

KREA OtTE
            WILLIAli STREET WASTE GRODIW
- DO&AGF[Y, JOENSON WOUNDE

## Witnesses

Dnahv - aiself t Currant: Gov1.

Johnson - Donaghy; Currs; Covie.

## P

AflA TWO
           COU1TYkRD (BACi OF RQSSVZLLE STREET FLATS)
- DUDDY KILLED
- BRIDGE, BRÀDLt, McDkIi. DEER? WOUNDED.
Witnesses

/
    To Gunman - Daly
                            (it); McGowan; Donne (w); Gerry Doherty. Not

   J
          seen
                    by Bonner, Tucke,- QoLLins
                                                                            f athily who watched
                                                                                                                     lL
                                                                                                                           the
NJ
          initial events in the courtyard until aftetthe shootings. All
          of them think the army
                                                         tad fi±st.
                                                                                                               -
          To no shots until array
                                                        opensd_fire;
                                                                                 4LLL OTHEt4 LISTED UNDER
          TELLS SECTION.
                                                      -
                                                                                             -
                                                                                                              -

Duddy - NcDaid,
                       .Bonner (W),Tucker (w), Daly (W).

ridge - stlf but refusing to sea us;
                                             E. :'1ooe
                                                        tucker;
  Doherty; Donne (t); Daly.
                                  -

   Bradley - self; Tucker; Bonner; McGowan
J?.
      MCDaLC -
               self: G. Doherty.

JDaary - flonei
rt
.E e'

   AREA. TEREE
                 BARRI CADE
   - tOU1Q, RASE (Willie), GILNOUk, McEILEEENfl; KXLLY tILLED.
   - POSSiBLY MICHAEl. Ì4cDAID
  - ALEC NASE WOUNDED
                                   -
                              J
                                                j
                                                                  J
  Witnesses
         GLimaur - EamoMá.u1ah;
                                        Gara1diùRchond; KathLeen
  Crbssan.
                       J
                                     - J
JKesrin Mc. - Gerard Gri&ve; Terry
                                      O'ECeafe (tO; X. J
                                                                 J
 /1ichae1 Kelly
                    - McCaffety
                                   (?);Otk/efe;
                                                    Coyre;
                                                             klec
                                                                   Nash;
  possibly Dennis BraLey butno. clear from_his i/vito us.
J John Young - ?IcCattarty? Co4e,
                                        O'Keef e, flac Nsh, McCu"Ycer
  p&rginaìly.
                                 /
                                           I
                                                    ¡
JWillie Nash - ALec Nash; OTWaefs,-Cole, NcGfferty.

S.S. WITNESSES - LIST ONE.

?AGE TWO
JMICHAEL McDALD - none.

Alec Nash - himself; Coyle;Qtkeefa; Mocafferty.

AflA FOUR - AREA IN FRONT OP ROSSYILLE FLATS. St JOSEPH PLACE
- DOHERTY7 McGUtCAN DEED.

- Mc.GOWA.N, PATRICK CAThOEBELL WOUNDED -
Witme.sses

   JPaddy Doherty - Paddy Walsh; Olive Sonoer.-
                                               --
                                                -
a
                         /
                                        J
                                              -J
     Barey McGuigan
                  -
                    F.
                       4çZeevet;
                              E.
                                 Noora;
                                       Bonner;
                                             Dicker;
     En$ish;
            ?4cCusicer;
                    RichSond;
                            Macowen.
                                    (ALmost
                                          anyone
                                                and
     everyone will testify to ht
                          peaceLuì character.)

(rqs
       Conflict
                      on
                            this
                                     death
                                               as
                                                     to
                                                           caethar the was
                                                                                     eacing
barricada, and hence shoe from the walls, or facing the
                                                                                          tls
and
       shot
                from G.
                             Par'.
                                       tatter fits
                                                           tore with rnost
                                                                                    of
                                                                                          the
witnesses and also the foreñstc. & number of the witnessss also
had the impression he was tirse shot i±
                                                            the Leg whe
                                                                               facin
                                                                                          the
barricade and that spun him round to face the
                                                                         alls. and then
shot in back cf head from
                                       G. Park area.)

JDanial McGowan - seLf.
J Patrick Cambell - nonas

AREA flVE - GLEgFADA PARK
- WItLEAM MclCTh'NEY. jANES akt KiLLED
- TCS3?E MAHON, NICEAfl QUINN, JOSEPH FRXEL WOUNDED

ituesses

William Mcflnney - &Iichgei. Kivelhan 7; O'Keefa;Fergus McAteer;
Covle; Cars's (Mrat)
                                      -
                                         -
                                                -
Sons c.cnfusion here beaust your witness John O"cZane appears co
be
    describing
                the
                     way
                           this
                                 victim
                                         was
                                              killed
                                                       but
                                                            then
tdentifies the man as soneftte elsa Mk' just have ?iLs McKínneys
confused - hopefully.,

sfs;

Jainfts Wray - John
                     '4ne; r&eLl MCaff arty; Kiveihan;
Co(Le; Mc&jeer; O1Rejílys (JAr at w)

Joseph -lahon - McAteer; Coyle.

JMichael Quinn - McAtear.
Joseph Friel - none. He has refused to SeE
us so far.

## Ara Stx - Abbey Pair - - Ceràld Mcxinnbx, Gerald Donaghy Kilt.Ed.

Witnesses
,/cerald McKinuey - John J
j ivelhan; 0'ReiLly's; Carr's.

Gerald Donaghy - John OtKane, OtReLllyts.

## Other Mkflers Wttesses Rb

PEE WERE tiNDER ARflST PIFFER
O-Len
      (but does not want
                             to
                                be.

ATTLTUD,E 0E' TEE
                  1'AMAS WHILE P
- OtEe; M4%'ear;
                        ChacLje
interviewed as Things staud)Y

7 McGILLIGAN
               /
 - Canavan; Vaujiagh; NcJeer;,CitizenY.

(1ffy;FrancIj Donne; 1./o -Young.

 ,'JOHN Y0O?G'S
                CEABACTE&
/ - Eugene
               dy; Maria'

 J &O VL0INCE BY JARA MILrÇ(RZES ON fl DAY .P4EEMEUT
                                                                     J
J
    -
       DeiZin;
                         Mc.Gu,Aess: McO.4an; Flc.Catferty; Tony'$artin.
    Of fc.ia1s - beM unaerstood, no expltc.it order..
 /
V
    -
       ive1han (oQi record); Bradley - hearsay.

GUNMAE IN KFJ 1.5 WALK BEFORE T
                                TROON-?
-
  'argus McAteer (only gllmvse cf mañ with rifle waLking down
to William Street).
                          --

CROWD REACTION AFTER
-
  DevLin;
            Breslin;
                      4cCann
                               Conan
                                      Mc.Feely;
                                                Gerry
                                                       Doherty;
MoGuiness
                         -

EFFECtS OF ES
                                    j
- VirtualLy take your pick, but
                                           DevLin,
Doherty, perhaps even Hutton auongst irtost interestía.

    -
       MCafferty ssems
                                to be desribin
                                                         where
                                                                             supposedly
    shot into window.
                                          -
/ DiRTY TACTICS! DOCTORED RUBBER BULLETS EÎC. TEAT DAY
   - D.
            i11espie

## / Guth1Ar In - Gerry Doherty; Daly; Donne; Mcgowan. 6Ldzers May Have Put Forensic Marks On People Whether /Tel]Bertely Or By Acqident Hy Way They Lifted The Bodies - -J - Nash (Alec); Or Mccabe; John O'Kane Officials Were In Ûecline At The Tule - Mclean; Mcguiness, Deviln.

But - McCann - no, officials were on the un1 provos catching up
but not dOEninant then. May be wishfuL thinking on his
                                                         - part!
Politically he would certainly prefer his atm version.
                                                       -

ALEC McFADDEN
No poiLtical aWiatton then or now.

WETNESS
:
Courtyard generally.

## Story

Ran up Chamberlain street, and into courtyard. Was in the middle of the area when the shooting started.

      No firing at the troops, they fired as they carne. Pig stopped,
      soldier got out. and stood f&rtng.
SHe
         ran into corner between blocks 2 and 3, then went through to
      hack. Doherty, Mcauigan already dead, and another body laid by
      Moøuigan.

Ran up into the flats and to top of block 1.ENDS

O'REILLY'S - Bridle and her husband. (60's)
Ordinary couple, tive at
                                       Still Live in that same
Etat.

WITNESSED
Wray Donaghy and second MeKinney MR O'RflLLY WITNESS AT WIDGERY.

## Story

their lives.

Shooting started, lots of peopLe ran into their houses in fear for James Wray brought into their kitchen, shot. William McKinney died in their house with father Mulvey and Dr Mcclean present. Looking out of their kitchen window, some to to 15 yards to the spot, Mr O'Reilly and at times Mrs O'Reilly watched as Mckinney and Donaghy were shot together (12, 13 ort Sunday times map).

No guns, bombs at all that day and certainly not while they were watching.

Saw Wray go down as he ran towards their opening into Gletifada.

Donaghy made run out of shadow of back of Glenfada Park,
opposite their f lat window. Older man, HoKinney moved out to
pull him back - he was shot in side and front as he did so.
Donaghy shot from the side.

Soldier cama from top corner qudrangle of Glenfada and went back there after the shooting.

ENDS

## S.S, Sljmniary Of Irish Eye Witnesses Stoiubs

DANNY McGOWAN (now 56)
His shooting has wrecked his life. Never worked since, and can
only
      walk
             with
                    difficulty.
                                  Speech
                                           also
                                                  affected
                                                             but
undernandable. Confused on much of the detail of exactly where
he was when1 but clear on what he saw and the shootings. Very
emotional, about it all.

IiITNESS
Uts own shooting
Mickey Bradley and NioGuigan
Gunman in courtyard

## Not Wtdgery

SHOT -
in the back of the right side of his lower leg, and comes out the left side front.

## Sto R Y

Ran up Chamberlain $reet and across to gap between blocks 3
and 2.

Goes
      through,
                shots ramina through
                                          the
                                               flats doorway
                                                               from
Chamberlain Street direction, Sees Bradley shot near him. Looks
back as he is going through.

Sees
     gunman
             with revolver edging along
                                             able end and loosing
off "few shots" around the gable end.
                                             'lt
                                                 slowed the paras
advane, meant tots ¡nora people
                                    ot to safety, probably saved
even more deaths, The Paras were already shooting heavily by
now."

Edges down back of block 2 trying to get home, to gable end of
block 1.

Gilmour is laid by phone box, says a prayer ovet him. Huddled
in crowd
         by gable end of Block 1. Mc.Guigan also bean
                                                     shot.

Shooting eases after good five minutes at least, He crawls
                                                            up
to
    top of area behind back of block
                                        2 of Rossvtlle street
flats, near Block 3,
                       and
                            is bent over, pulling injured man
(Patsy Campbell) to cover when Danny is shot from behind.

ka &lLs sees soldier laid on wall, by Glenfada Park top, and
his impression as they locked eyes is that he is the one who
had shot him.
Pulled behind Joseph Place watt by
                                    two men,
                                              saved my
                                                       life.
Bullets raining down on us.

tie is laid oft by Dupont while he is in hospital, never worked
since. Walks with a stick, thinks about it all the time. Family
man, with kids (many with good jobs), grand-kids.

## Ss.S. Summary Of Irtsi-1 Eye W[Tnessfs Stories Bernadette Devlln Witness To Very Ltttle Cave No Evidence To 1Idcery Insights

- kf terwards, saw
                   crowd of 60 year old women demanding guns
front
     PrOVO
            Leader)
                     pressing him
                                    against
                                             wall
                                                   and shouting

S*iWhere were you?" "Give us guns, we'll do it fer ye".

-
   IRA was raw then and everyone knew who was
                                                                    in,
                                                                          and their
business. Crack about it then, flot
                                                  now. So lt would lmve come
out if they had started it,
                                      and they would have been blexted and
lynched. Ostracised and not able to Live here tiny more
                                                                               at the
very laast.

- Rows aEter about
                     Why were there no guns in the city? Was
anyone responsible for starting It? and everyone knew it was
not the IRA.

- Famous Hospital call from Hell t'Ie.Caferty's house.

- Her conclusion is that
                         the action was
                                         a clear politically
directed move
              to
                 end
                      the civil
                                rights
                                        demos,
                                               and
                                                   the mass
mohïlination,
             and warn
                       the
                            No
                               Go
                                   areas
                                         what
                                              could happen.
Political machinery afterwards moved to blame the Paras
                                                       to a
certain extent, but not their fault, the Paras
                                             were the state,
the state as the Paras.
-
  Much else depending on how and where
                                        we want
                                                 to use her
perhap:.

ENDS

## S.S. Summary Of Irish Eye Ritt4Esses Stories

NOT WILLING TO BE tN'FERVIEWED ON CAMERA
- LEO YOUNG
(26 then)
John Young's brother. Lorry driver.

WITNESS
        :
          Donaghy not having nail bombs on him
          Own and Donaghy's treatment

## Evidence To Widgery

John, wearing a floppy hat, is by the Lorry leading the march in some photos and perhaps film early on in the march.

## Story

Leo found and toaI
                   Donaghy into
                                 ti-te
                                     Rogan's house in Abbey
Park. Stomach hanging out, LittLe hope, woman and man, who was
doctor,
        said.
              Only chance
                           was
                               if
                                   we
                                      took him
                                                to hospital
immediately.

Leo
     in
         hack,
                Rogan
                        driving,
                                   stopped.
                                             Donaghy
                                                       alive,
                                                               hut
unconscious at that point.

Leo
      .grabbed by
                   the throat
                               by the army, arrested.
                                                          Leo held
until the Wednesday evening. No one told where he was; parents
thought they had Lost two sons

Never been in jail before or since, and never in any trouble.

and held naked for first few hours then underpants back.

Swabbed hands, took dirt from under fingernaiLs. Clothes taken Paway, Questioning off and on for three days. Not know 13 shot etc. No call, solitor, charges.

As being released detective told him,
"Got one brother lese now,'.

MIS CONCLUSIONS
- Donaähy had no naiL bombs. Nowhere to put them, and he would not have got in car with them if had had - be suicide,
- John worked in tailors, and coll.ected money for Local coal man. Interested in girls and clothes. Good job, with &ood ¡none for Derry. Not march minded, in fact problably the first marc John had ever been on and lt killed him. John would not have had bomb or gun; deserved shooting if had had, but no way.

## Ends Tnforfttx0N Erom Officials

- Impflcit agreement and knowledge that big march there was to be no military activity.

- Could not remember if there had been explicit agreement or order, hut "no real, need for one, it would he understood".

- Reasons why no weapons be there;
a) Big march, if weapon found be propaganda against Civil Rights which they supported.

P
b) Posaible danger to crowds if military activity and not gt mass mobilisation again. í)ti.

cr.-PkLJ.1
c,..

c)Few weapons and men anyway and flot want to cisk getting Lifted at heavily policed march à) Leave in cars and dumps in Creggan in orderS to protect the weaponn e) Also in case Army tried to get in back way to Creggan.

ALL VERY LOGICAL reasons they said. - Strength Officials down slightly, about 50 each, perhaps 24 weapons each wing.

- Very tight discipline in those days.

- No Official gunmen on march or involved in anything.
- Maverick official unlikely.

- Cars Came down to Bogside afterwards, argument with grannies about "What should do, be dotng7"

        - It would have corne out if anyone had been active on that day.
_
        - Question of people supporting you. Therefore have to be
        honest
                 claim your people,
                                     your Successes and your failures,
        however bad they ate. Have to he honest because dirty war -
        army plants etc, plus possible fueds between wings so need to
        trust each other.

- Clenfada gunmen, flot have angle.

- Been gun battles over the past six nionths, often 3
hours. One army shot at itself for 3 hours.

## Ends

NOT WILLING TO 8E ON CAMERA - CHARLIE GLEN (early 40's)

Knights of Malta, now the Captain of them, plus a primary
schooL teacher. The hippy with tong hair, and Large specs. Seen
in famous picture with Daly and white hankie taking body down
Chamberlain street.

WITNESS
          Attitude of army
          Situation in courtyard, even though he flot
                                                       see any
          shooting directly
          Arrested, witnessed brutality afterwards

## No'R Wedcery Story P

In middle of waste ground along RossyillE street, in uniform,
suddenly Paras around him ort foot as people ran past him.
Soldier clubbing old man, tried to stop soldier, clubbed
himself.

Not know when tiring started.

Next memory ig he was Laid beside wounded Duddy, bullets
pinging all around him. Thing to stop the flow of blood but
clear to hirn that Duddy was dying.

Noise was terrifying, echoing.

Firing coming from real close, about 15 yards.

Bishop decided they wouLd get up and move Duddy. Not Want to.
But went with them, no alternative. Down Chamberlain Street and
up High Street to ambulance. Then not allowed back in.

't-
Arrested while crying to get back in, taking down by lorry, ran gauntlet of soldiers and police.

Senior officer and Scottish Sgt. came and looked into his eyes when attested. Eventually released.

Mentioned Simpson paperback, with footnote to 2.5., called
20
(7) Years of Murder". Still searching for Lt.

He is checking with other Knights who were there who might talk to us.

## End S

BETTY 1ATSON
Not present on BS, hut is family spokesperson for Michael
McDai.d family re
                  S and moat other things.

Five things
  They have photograph showing Michael still walking around
the barricade while priest and crowd are tending two bodies
behind the barricade, one of whom they all say is MichaeL
Kelly. QUESTiON : WHEW, WHERE, HOW DID MICHAEL McDAED DIE?
   Sister saw Michael on tv being arrested and taken along

SRosaviLle
          flats side itt Rossvtlle street.
      Glenfada Park flat witness saw arrested man just shot whiLe
    stood against wall? No corroboration.
      MicaaeL Moflaid was left handed, hut forensics say WH&T
                                           ROUT
   HIM FilING OR HOLDING A GUN?
    S) One of the priests tried to get to Michael according to
   Widgery evidence, when he was in the pig - which? when? where
   was the pig? how many bodies in it at that point?

PETER CkRR (early Go's)
No 8 &hbey Park, in corner house, directly looking through
Ginfada towards the barricade in RossviLle street, without
quite being able to see it.
              1
His son, Sean, Èhen 15 saw first NoKinney shot, white with his
hands up, and Peter also half saw it while pulLing Sean down
from the bedroom window.

WtTNESS
           MoKINNEY

## Sha1Jn Was Youngest Witness At Widgery S Story

Shooting, and people running. Cot his family in who were
pLaying on the street outside.
                               As getting them laid down
upstairs, saw soldier turn body over with his foot in Glenfada,
could have been Kelly.

Trying to get son Sean down from looking
                                         out of the upstairs
window, and we both
                    saw Mc3tinney stop, hands on his head and he
turned away from us sort of.

Soldier stepped out from top of Clenfada and McKinney went down
shot.

Two people brought in, and doctor attended them, died in my living room. Kelly and Wray.

Ran to get ambuljc.

when it drew up at the barricade. Saw one body lying there.

People in here screaming for their lives, expecting army to come in and shoot them. No guns, no bombs, no picking guns up with that firing gotng on.

EN D S

KAThLEEN CROSSAH
tristi co11eeu of
                 35, v-sty beLievabLe if
                                          Little imprecise Ott
the datati. Married to man who has cone time for being provo,
however.

W&tness to Cilmour death, beside him when shoe. Confirms ht was running away and had no &un or bomb and had not even bean stoneing.

Shot by two soLdiers identified by Eamttcon MeulLa.ch, who wet-s
down on one knee and she remewbers Looking back, seeing theo
aim and fire and instantaneously turning to Giltuour and him
staggedng and saying $II
                            hit'1.

Se-ratabled ovar batrie.ade and into a flat where everyone was
screaming and tnoanìtg.

CITIZEN X
            DERRT
Para miLitary after ßloody Sunday.
                                   Propelled into it by the
events of S.S. Served two years on continuous renand for
possessing firearms and explQsives, but after five. triaIs
acquitted, then
                iithdraw from para. military activity. Would do
interview and be good but need to be in silhouette and voice
chac«geci aS Ite now wotks la m.iíniy L'rut. iusliLution, tÎVc! in
matuly Prat area, and wants to keep his jobs his house and his
life. Very good ont how many joined provos after 3.5..

WITNESS t MICKEY BRADLEY
          YOUTH OF THE TINE, MW THE MOVE TO JOZN ZIA. AFTER

NOT TO WIDGERY

STORY

McGitLigan
            brutaL, and no reason.

Big cultural significance Qf beine allowed to hoLd meeting in
Gutidhall s4uare in Derry.

Me
     just. rioter, stónss and bottles against the army and
police. &ot invoLced in anything else then. Went on march and
knew Lt WOULd end in riot, always did at bottom of W. Street
after the main mare-h had gone past.

I was at W. Street, behind the corrugated tin, throwing stones,
shout that the army were waving in.
                                    Immediately ran along C.
Street.
MaU way down Chambartain street, heard shooting. ha reached
ter parked at the end the aty ttere already there.
figs there
            soldiers were Out.
Mûre shootln, body Lying.
Jumped over wall at far corner of caurtyard, man shot as we
jtzwpad ovar.
             Mickey Bradley. Put tocurniquet Ort.
                                                    «119g

## X Continues

No stage saw anyone with any wupori, barth ot even a stone in the c.ourtyard Through iuta house in Joseph Place, and then came out again to help man lying in open injured. Shot at, could riot reac.h hita.

Died down a little arid cams out and threw stones from barricade. Priest thtervenad.

Young and Nash certainly not stone throwers at all. tot see them at all.

Next day began moves to join the IRA, and took a number of us
10/14 days to get sworn in. People queusing up to join.

CITIZEN Y
Served 16 years of 20 for attemptins to blow up soldiers with Land mine etc.

WITÑESS z COURTYARD
          BARRICADE - Ncllhinney and others but chronology flot
clear.
NOT TO WIDGERY

Not put his detailed story as a) Need to see him again b) Ris
credentials would seem to rule him out as a witnass.

MITCHELL MCCUSKER
Mid 40's now. Fa.ri1y man, steady Job, never involved in

before or since save a little. stone throtzing.

anything WITNESS t JOHN YOUNG marginalLy BARNEY MoGUICAÑ
NOT WtDGERY

## Story

Aggro corner, still on main march, at back when army came in, crowd scattered and I ran to barricade by R.

flats.

John Young came and told me Mickey Bradley, 'uy best friend, was
hit so I went around the back at the flats towards the
o.ourtyard to see if I could help him. r was just behind the
flats end, when with that shooting started and young Gitniore
arrived, went down and died in girl's arms.Soldiers over in G.
Park and IC. Walk shooting. Up against the wall.
Man ran out from the gable sud, and he was shot, think in the
leg, and then his head was blown out.
Shooting stopped, went back to the barricade and John Young an
two others laid there.
John Young had no gun, no bombs, flot even stones in his hands
and I left him gcìconds hetforM he must hava been shot. ENDS

EAMMON MEULLACH (501$)
Pacifist,
           ivir Rights activíst
                                 htghly respected enn if
considered, vary verbose and a littte eccantrí. &mateur
photographer. Excellent spee,ker, if a, little
                                              full of himself.

WITNESS
        :
          aUG11 GILMORE
NOT WItERY

STOW?

McGilLigan - brutal violence by Paras, when no threat, nothing
to throw Pri sandy beach.

triad to wipe out memory of ES, änd it is impossible.

Stnnd just by end of Rossv-jlLe flats block one when army
                                                          rMflffi
i.n. StoneLng from just beyond the barricade but 'not reaching
the army.

## S

First vehicle pulled round, two SLRs pokeing out and fired Up R. St as stewed into the. courtyard. FIRST SHOTS t HEARD.

Hugh Filmour beside qe
                        hatE running away. Z soldiers at bottom
of Glenfa,d,a. Park, hardly any distance. One firing rubber,
firing Live.

Gilmour "I'm hit'. No, ruber, but expression on his f ace told
me he was hit. t-te ran to and over the barricade, I followed.

Staggered, went down,
                      massive hala in his right hand side when
va looked at him
                  and he diecI sao-ti after. Crowd around hirn.

Want round corner, Mcßuigan laid there.

Bullets been flying all the time.

rights activist. Very

directly relevant

WILLIR ERESLIN
'Local school teacher, non violent civil
believable.
Good on the day in general, saw nothing
hitaseif.

- People would not have gone unless th&y wen
                                                            conv'inc-ed no para
mílitaty activity. Kids etc. wars there, and any trouble the
pravos would have been blamed and lynched. Guarantees by pravos

and they kept their word then, end of them if broken their
word.
- M. McGuiness story. That grOUp of aten wanting to go down into

the bogsid
            and do something when the shooting had stopped, as

Breslin was up by Free Berry ÇQrIIer. McG argued against that,

and in any event they had no weapons to hand there,
                                                    all in

Creggan. bOG nonpiussad, lost, been outwitted type of f.eling

to hita then.

Sinn Fain councillor, early 40's. Not really served any tjma st aLl,

WITÑESS
          COIJRTflRD EVENTS
        : BARRICADE
NOT WIDGERY

## B

    STORY
Ran
        across waste ground it R. Street ahead o
                                                    pigs. At bac-k
    doorway to R. Flats block 1,
                                  as soldier got out he threw a
    bottle at him. Man went dow-n and. fired two rounds into the
    doorway straight
                      away.

Rid down and saw soldiirs cote out. f iring
                                           and hit Duddy and.
then Bridge.

Mo shooting or bombs. Army definitely fired first.

Went up to i st floor flat, looked
                                   out onto Rossville streat.
Saw paople shot (unclear fra tape
                                   - batteries running out at
time of recording ) who they
                             are.

Good on normal routine of riot and how and. what happened.

!4ICRAEL CANAVAN
Eum&s side kick, Businessman i
                                   60's,

Not really see anything at all, but good on mood and
significante and cowmitmeuts to non violence from the para
militaries.

## P Not Tqtoc-Zn

SIAN COLtLNS (ten at time) plus his whole family it seems of
f ive or six
              saw events in the courtyard1 corresponds with
Bonner and Tucker accounts.
NOT WIDGERY

       NÒiIJ REti.?
                     (40,
                           self employed electrical DÜsiness, 4arn
       Protestant
                    area
                          So
                              not want to draw attention to hjmsrVThut
Swilling
                to do in profile - slip into the hotel.)

WITNESS
        :
          Donaghy, Johnson - places them on tef t hand side of
William Street as crowd came down, which is actually the.
                                                             nly
thing that makes sense on that.
          State of mind of the soldiers In G. Park-
          John flflf.Ls character

STO&Y
      :
        kf ter seing Donaghy and Johnson shot he ran through to
Abbey Park, and saw 2 McKínñeys laid side by sida (been carried
there and then dropped) and looking into Gtenfada Park -saw
Mahon crawling towards him, "help tue, help me."

Wray dead by wall, which was covered in his blood.

Moving to help Nahen when Para appeared by gable end, eith
black or wearing gas mask,
                           40 ft away, and I was
                                                   waving
                                                           .
hankia,
        he
           swung rifle round instantly, and I went to movt
away, he fired 3 shots and t fell, on floor.

Lafferty went between me and soLdier. Referee's whistle sounded
and that man had gone,
                         they ali had.
                                        Got up, ILE ted William
MeKinney into maisonette.
                              - 3 -

Kelly very good
                On human side - he had his brothn in 1.aw'ø
raincoat on without perrnisaion
                              to tmpress the girls, and went
back with it
             covered
                      i
                         dye from ths water
                                             cannon and also
flesh from the wounded,

Abbey Park, andsaw2
                    MoKinneys laici
                                 a
                                         -
there and
          thsrt dropped) and
                            looking into Glenfada Parc
Hahon crawling towards
                     hirn, "help tve, help me."

Wray dead by waLl, which
                          as covered In hi
                                             blood.

Moving to help Mahon
                     when Pare appeared by gable
                                                  end, either
black or wearing gas
                     mas',
                            40 ft away,
                                        and
                                             i
                                                as
                                                     waving
hankie, he swung
                 rifle round instautly,
                                         and
                                              i
                                                went to move

away, he fired 3 shots
                        nd I feil, on floot.

Lafferty went between me and soldíer. Refere&s whistle soundedT:
and that an had gone,
                         they ali had.
                                        Got up, lifted Wi1liam
McKinney into matsonette.
                              -
                                3

BLOODY SUNDAY
UP DATE 2/9/91

Kelly very good on human side - ha had his brother in law's
raincoat on without permission to impress the girls, and went
bac'k
    with it covered in dye from the water cannon and also
flash from the wounded,
                       o'trn'p
Carra and their neighboursall back up these C. park incidents
which they watched through their kitchen windows.

## 0/C Of Gira At Time

Officials did give undertaking not to be there with arms, and stuck to it. Given both to organisers <Bonds) and to priests.

Not break it - because community would disown them. Would hava clatned any of dead - always did and have.

No Officials killed or wounded,

Not know of any official there with weapon who fired, because
would have claimed him
                        been a propaganda coup to have one of
your members take retaliatory or defensive action at
                                                   time.

If get pic of the man
                       to him he wtLirLdctttifY it if knows him,

(NB Moping to see the man this week, end have got second ha
accoun.)
        -
                              - rE2.

OLIVE SOLÇNER (]ate 4Os now)
1arrIed lady, lives in Bogside, very bellevable and non politic-al.,

WITNESS
          Duddy, Derty, ticGuigan
                                               =
          Courtyerd - nô f Lrtng befbre atm>' f fred.

WIDGERY WITNESS

stoay

Middle flat of middle bloc-k of fiats at RossvjLte Street.
Looked down on courtyard incidents, then went through to the
bedroom window and jooked down on the Joseph Place incidants.

Saw - Jack Duddy running, looked back, shot. She called down
                                                             6
Fther Daly that Duddy ws hit and he went back to him.
                                                            f
    - Paddy Doherty crawLing, then shot. Barney Mc.Guigaa
                                                         om
out and shot.
                                                           i

f - -
No gunfire, bombs, even stoning going on bf ors army startftd shooting. Saw no gunman on g,a.ble end in courtyard. r

Notes of
          eieuhon
                   cton;ersatton bcween -tony Cc' ok and Kevin
11cCorrle
           elfst soitcitor4n, worked for Ì'1CRA or. bloody
Sundey.

Was
    tr
       Free Derry corner at the raeetin' whea tht shooting
                                                              -
start'-i. .Spe.ater5 wete. upend. .and Ms nan priOCit5
                                                           8StO
see that t-entier Brocktay wasOK.

Te
         ot
            S&.t, flesh.. ;t,ut
                                  already have tht
                                                      -
                                                        - .;-ioci
                                                              t.-i-ksd of
his dcc 2'p.nt. He also
                          ;ut btit a pamin1ei e't1ti eaST 1ass-r
                                                                    at
Derrv of 'thith he has z- copy.. .bur. y
                                            &Ireadv hvt-
ga hc r

Says- Sa. )ash1 s
                    ;oket koccs down the rc,r
                                                                     atyS
itt s a cs
              oc Kctth
                         cur.e eat vz>tr heat
                                                  Ut

Says ttt
           Fony snythe s-nd sack Urony
orgen±sed the Satt Dash inqtfit. Smjthe
                                           rhc:
the time artd F:roe7 wcr1ce
                              fer chei.

He
     v- hs booklet ¿ives
                            t
                                hack:roun-
                                            T
        z:oint of view. tidety says tha t
                                                t:.t.-
                                                       .:J
                                                            '-:t :;
marcn tnen there wn Id have been no dea th
                                                         '-.i&:.
the
    iOCRI
          NICP.A oratticer, W1-ìdget Bond,
                                                    .-C'
                                                                zeal
tcith Frtnk Lan end that Ligan had ¿
                                         dee. L
                                                    th
                                                         .
                                                             . Army
       whIch 'as stoinpd on from n
                                       hir;. He
                                                 ¶t.:
                                                     :c
differences between the Polite and the
                                                .. en4
                                                             --
wtth.r. the Aç;t.. This is all in WidQerv but
                                                    ."-: s
                                                         r«;.
                                                           -
                                                             - .nktet
has r-,r.jc::
              itivnteot it.
                             -
                                          -

           nI-s
                   a'ph1e.t ¿so hn the detad
                                                             o
              the Army red- os with words iie «
                                                                                          -
bas.ar&-
               .anrì
                      ,E a
                             letter
                                         rorn "sorne stuc
conrattLatu-tg cne }tr&s orn a oamn tine

 xt was the StLOot
                   to
                       tìl to end all shoot t%
                                                       fl- stiLl
remains a t.nem
                in lrjth life that no resttu::cn has be.en made
by the BrItish governm-nt. The relatives 20t thet blood
                                                            oney
but there's been no real recompense med. Lve.n a.n Easter.
Euro?e the ?ouish goverrutent bull t a mónunent to the shipyard
workers whaer.- klLle.j bUfn Derv there's r,othin
                                                           The
so1ider
         had i:elr day of fun.. ..bu
                                      ybu inustu' t
                                                  stop the fi-1m
there. That it when the Paras were betn
                                             brought out
Derry....
          it. was trost
                        cuesoe....thye drove lorries snth no
lights on through the City Centre1..past the Cuildhall and the
City Hotel where all the journalists were...t-here was at eerie
silence -over the town,,..It was a black inood....people were
silent with rage....ancl the final insult to the whole day was
tile way the soldiers left. The whole town was shocked."

Talked about the demo at McGilLigan the sieek before when the
Army attacked women and children on-the beac.h...and says that

was the start of the change ífl polie-y from thent. Sinon
Winchester was at that iemo
TC's notet he was very-
                         lpful and an excellent ta1ic
uses some gooá pht-ases thicb would godown weil on t
                                                            JSS
thr and was one of tha wain organtser&-
                                            will see
way to flerry on the 19th, will photi'eopy :.s t1ßszacre a.
                                                            cry
bookLet, and then corae on
Ris phone number is

Notes on Conversation bstween former Army Press Officer and Tony Cook.

T

## Contact For

Re dId not arrive
                   n Northethn ireland until. a973J. he says
that
     ut-1K £73
                    (correct spelling),
                                        a retired Major. who
now Lives in
                  , was the thief Presa Officer at the time
with Colin Wallace as his assistant. Thats as much as he knows
of
    LINK
              whereabouts.Lbut hesay
                                         that Colin Wai!te
will. know exactly where he is.

He says
        t.he problem when he arrived was In cuttn
                                                      through the
fiction to get to the. reality.

Qn his arrival he
                    was told by the Upsychothgìcaiwarfare or*-'
that
      iood Sunday was a "put up job'
                                           The evidence they
forward for this was the surprising number of tori;-
teievtsion crews and reporters and the number oír
reporters who suddenly turned up for this part2c.uisr
   s that "these marches" had become a Sunday a
                                                       t ernoon boté by
tztefl ... sp why all the sudden
                                      terest in this one. That
                                                                    s
                                                                      e
problem he stll& cannot resc4ve. Ka also points to the. suddr
exceptional quality cf the ph' ournelisu of the
                                                            :c
                                                                 De.;
 ':ìr teiate1y after ßOçv
                                    undey.

7
cams
..a eve that Bloody Suuay
as 't
a

;
th. source of the firt shnrs is c ion. Wherever they came tror' they He im ÒflL
li the
-
touch paper".

A bunch of cooks and cìerk
                            (his desript1on et
buggerec ft up, lost their headst" It was a
He nys th.
              i. any rcQlution... and this
books like
                «voiutionary's Gookbo k whi.
available at the tIme.,, it is neces:-..ry for
                                                        totiitn
agaanst the torces of law and order. i t is therFr
                                                    -
to believe that it was any of the paríi1iter. 3ran1sttrns
who bagan it, but he ta a man who is swayed by
                                               evidence and tie
has seen no evidence to suggest that it was any paramilitary
grot±
      who did so.
                                              -fl

He says
        tLÌie Army fell hook, Line and '.'Lner
                                                 n gVit11 'he
IRA the most amazing pr3paganda victory. The --
                                                   :-tth
                                                        the gun
is God...on both sides in Northern Ireland.
                                              t'
                                                   a workIng
class war...t'ne middle class couldn't_give a stuff. The errand
boy is given a gun and calls himself a company cornmander. The
problem is how
                to persuade that rna
                                     to going back to be the
errand boy."

He believes that Bloody Sunday was the turning point for
Northern Ireland. When the soldiers first went into
"Londonderry" they were greeted like heroes.., but after three
years of inaction by the British government then the people
were ripe for change.

Send in the "Kit karno Army of clerks etc." and they go
crazy...and the whole situation changed. "From then on it was
all downhill."

          is a man who loathes Colin Wallace. "A man who ruined
my career. I believed him for three years and than he took me

Pdown

     with him."
                          attended Wallace's wedding...one of
only two people on the groom's side of the church...and saw him
married as
              gallant Captain of the Irish Guards." According
to
             Wallace was not allowed to join the Army because
of "flat feet or something!' and only had a "piddlìng
Territorial Army commjsjon". He had never been a Captain in the
Irish Guards. Re also is a tpains to point out that despite the
impression that Wallace gives of being someone important at the
Widgery Tribunal he was in fact just the Army's note taker. he
was meant to pick out the stories that would make the next
day's headlines and warn the top brass what the media would
focus on. "14e sat at a little bench at the back and took notes,
that's all he was," He describes Wallace as "a nutcase and very
dIsloyal."

         points out that the ROC between 69 and 73 had pretty
well abdicated responsibility for law and order and that had
brought about "damn near martial law, complete military law".
He says it wasn't until late 73 that the RUG began to take
responsibility again.

  He says Bloody Sunda' was "a hell of a trap and the Army fell
g into it. On the Army
                        s part there was no malice, just pattl.c.

In support of his cooks and clerks theory he points out that
the Army has rarely paniced in Northern Ireland. 0k, the
occasional individual soldier has paniced, but. ßloody Sunday is
the only
         -c.asion on which they have paniced wholesale.

He says the Army went into Northérn Irleand determined tito play
a straight bat"...and 99.9% of soldiers have done so. Ile
accept -
         that the SAS and the Special Forces, "trained killers
who are -'at up to destabjlise" have not played fair and he
believes
           t
              is little short of criminal to have allowed them to
go to Noru;arn Ireland at all.
He is convinced that the arrest force were not "front2Y-
Paras".

t
He says that if the first shot had been fired by a malicious
-ç paramilitary operation titen the Army would be very happy,..but

as he hes never come across any evidence that thLs is the case
he is not prepared
                   to believe i
                                .

Still he harks back on the one thing that he cannot understand,
thouph, why were so nany Press there that day?

  Tony Cook's comments on the conversation; This bloke drops his
  guaro every now and then...notably on Wallace. He attempts to
  sell me the line that is moat believable now, the cock up
   heory. He tries to seem very reasonable. Ne was unavailable to
     for seven hours after my fjrt call, despite lits secretary
saying he "was in the building" but then he sudden1y was "at
   the hospital waiting for
                            an appointment and you know how long
  that can take." I
                     suspect he was getting guidance from the MOD
  and then tries to take me along a line of highest
                                                      cobabiiity.
  He was keen to stress to
                            me that he Was a Cathojic wr.ose
  -parents cette from "Southern Ireland"...hardly a description of
  Irelend you hear from many republican sympethisecs, He stressed
  his a:pport for the Civil Rights movement. . . then does a hatchet
  job on Wallace. His phrasing was peculiar too... ltke ceiling
  Bloody sunday & "held of a trap" after saying u was an Army
  coc& up. Quite honest].y he made rua suspect the offcta1 line
  aven more and if anyone is going to makme
                                             ne a conspiracy
  theorist then he's the onel

This entire conversation was, of course, off the reord.

## Belfast Soldiers - Best Quotes Sjde1 Effect Of Being Abused/Spat At Etc

"IN THE EARLY DAYS, YOU KNOW, YOU USED TO - THE OLD CUPS OF TEA JOB,
YOU KNOW ON BOTH SIDES OF THE COMMUNITY. AND THEN CATHOUCS, YOU
KNOW, THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, YOU KNOW, BECAME LESS ANT) LESS AN])
BOYS STARTED COMING OUT IN BLOTCHES - REMEMBER THEY STARTED
MAKING THE TEA OUT OF URINE. BOYS STARTED COMING OUT IN BLOTCHES
AND WONDERED WHAT IT WAS, YOU KNOW. THEY'D BEEN GWEN A
DIRECTIVE, YOU KNOW - GIVE 'EM P155."

"TO BE QUITE HONEST THEW FEMALE POPULATION WERE BY FAR THE WORST
OFFENDERS BECAUSE THEY KJ'4EW THERE WAS VERY LflTLE WE COULD DO
ABOUT IT. WE VERY RARELY GOT ANY REAL ABUSE FROM THE MALE
POPULATION BECAUSE WE OULD DEAL WITH THOSE ON A ONE-TO-ONE
SIUTATION. WITH THE FEMALES - THEY KNEW THEY WERE A PROTECTED
SPECIES, AND, WELL AT LEAST 50% OF INCIDENTS - I WOULD SAY THE
FEMALES WERE THE ONES THAT CAUSED THE TENSION, THE AGGRAVATION
AND THE RIOTING. CERTAINLY A LOT OF TEE TIME WE WOULD SAY: BRING
OUT YOUR MEN THE MEN DIDN'T PLAY - THEY DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW. THE
FEMALES WERE THh ONES THAT WERE FORCED OUT TO INITIATE A
SITUATION AND GET THINGS STIRRED UP AND GO IN - AN]) THEY WERE
BLOODY GOOD AT lT."

"IN MANY WAYS IT WAS A GAME - BUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE GAME
WERE SERIOUS."
"YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS GOING BACK TO THEM YEARS.

IN THE END YOU TOOK NO MESSING OFF THE WOMEN NEITHER. t MEAN I'VE
SEEN THEM COMING AT ME WITH HURLING STICKS. YOU CAN STILL GET
HURT WITH A HURLING STICK. I'M AFRAID THERE WAS NO MESSING."

## 455

"I CAN CERTAINLY SEE THAT TYPE OF THING HAPPEN THROUGH SHEER
FRUSTRATION. BUT
                  I
                    CAN'T REMEMBER EVER SUFFERING FROM
FRUSTRATION. CERTAINLY THE SOLDIER, IF HE'S BADLY LED, MORAL WAS
BAD, THEN - YES, THEY'D HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO RELEASE TENSION.

## Belfast Soldiers - Best Quotes

AND THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT IT AFTERWARDS - AND WHAT THEY'RE
TELLING OTHER PEOPLE, PEOPLE TELLING STORIES TO THEM - WHAT THEY
ARE HEARING BECOMES TRUTH AND FACTUAL."

"THERE' S NO QUESTION ABOUT IT THERE }4Y WF T HAVE BEEN PEOPLE
(SHOD THAT DOESN'T S OUNI) LIKE PROFESSIONALKILLINGS - BUT HOW MANY
PEOPLE CAN PUT THEIR HAND ON THEIR HEART AND SAY THEY ACTUALLY
SAW SOMEBODY BEING SHOT ON THAT DAY. I WOULD SAY lT WOULD BE
VERY, VERY FEW. VERY FEW INDEED BUT AS TIME GOES ON THE STORIES
GET MORE AND MORE EXAGGERATED - PEOPLE ACTUALLY CONVINCE
THEMSELVES THAT THEY SAW A PARTICULAR THING"

## Trie Soldiers' Views Of What Happened Thatday I

«WE ALL LIVED THROUGH IT. WE TOOK ALL THE CRiTICISM. WE'VE LISTENED
AND READ EVERYTHING THAT WAS EVER PUBLISHED ABOUT THAT
DAY
       I'M AFRAID THE VAST MAJORITY OF THAT WAS UNTRUE. WE WERE
NOT UNDiSCiPLINED. WE WERE ALL VEIfl' EXPERiENCED BY THAT STAGE.
WE'D ALL BEEN IN NORTHERN IRELAND FOR AUvIOST TWO YEARS, SOME OF
US EVEN LONGER THAN THAT, WE'D BEEN IN MORE SHOOTING INCIDENTS
THAN ANY OTHER UNIT IN THE PROVINCE AND FOR A MASS, ilL-DISCIPLINED
RETURN OF FIRE ON BLOODY SUNDAY IS TOTALLY INCORRECT. AHI) 1F I
WASN'T TELLING THE TRUTH I WOULDN'T BE HERE NOW. i'M HERE BECAUSE
I WANT TP PUT MY SIDE OF THE STORY ova - THE TRUTH AND THE PACTS
OF IT."

## Coming Under Ube -1 350

RE WAS AN ESCORT IN AN AJvIBULANCE PIG THROUGH TUE WILLIAM ST
BARBIER AND UP ROSS VILLE STREET & PARKED NEAR 'lilt COURTYMm OF
TUE FLATS. WHAT HIE'S DESCRIBThTG HIERE HAPPENED ABOUT FIVE OR
MORE MINUTES AFTER 'flit FIRST PIGS WENT IN.

"AS SOON AS i JtJMPED (JUT WiTH THE ESCORT THAT WAS WITH ME, TWO
ROUNDS WERE FIRED. ONE ROUND - I'M NOT SURE WHERE IT WENT - BUT
CERTAINLY ANOTHER ROUND HIT THE TOP OF 'flj
                                              JyjBTJLA1'tCE PIG. THAT
FIRE CAME FROM ABOVE, TO THE RIGHT OF wmEPs WE WERE AT THE TIME.
I'M SURE lT MUST HAVE BEEN THE FLATS ON TRE RIGHT HAND SIDE... dT
MiJST HAVE COME FROM ABOVE. lT COULDN'T HAVE COME FROM ANY
OTHER DIREenON
                    OUR FIRST REACTION WAS TO LOOK UPWARDS.

WHEN I LOOKED UP THERE WAS A PERSON RUNMNG ALONG THE TOP OF THE
ROOF OF THE FLAT ON THE RIGHT HAND SIDE OF BLOCK ONE. I BELIEVED
HIM TO BE ARMED1 OR HER TO BE ARMED - I'M NOT SURE WI[FHER if WAS
MALE OR FEMALE. WHAT I SAW WAS A PASSING GLANCE OF A PERSON
RUNNNING ALONG THE TOP OF THE FLATS WHICH I ASSUMED TO BE THE
PERSON THAT HAD FIRED DOWNWARDS TOWARDS US.. ..WITH A RIFLE THE
FIRST THING I DID WAS COCK MY WEAPON &?]) POINT UPWARDS. BY THE
TIME I HAD COME UP INTO THE AIM THE TARGETJIAD GONE. AND THAT WAS
IT... .WHAT I CAJ4 SAY 151 DEFINiTELY SAW A PERSON WITH AN OBJECT IN
THEIR HAND RUNNING ACROSS THE TOP OF THE FLAT...."

BUT YOU'RE NOT CERTAIN WHAT THE OBJECT WAS IN THE HANDS?

     'TM NOT CERTAIN WHAT THE OBJECT WAS mi 'raEm HAND BUT, HAVING SAID
STHAT, WHO WAS ON THE ROOF AT THAT TIME WHEN MOST OF THE PEOPLE
     WERE ON THE GROUND ? TIlE FIRE HAD DEFINITELY COME FROM ABOVE
     BECAUSE IT HAD HiT THE TOP OF THE PIG. SO WHAT I SAW I BELIEVE WAS A
     GUNMAN. ADMiTtEDLY - IT WAS A FLEETING GLANCE BUT IT CAME FROM
     THE RIGHT DIRECTION. THE PERSON WHO FIRED THE SHOT I ASSUMED WAS
     THE SAME PERSON THAT I'D SEEN RUNNING ACROSS THE ROOF... .WHAT I CAN
     CONFIRM IS THAT FIRE WAS COMING TOWARDS US - THERE'S NO DOUBT
     ABOUT THAT. (440 OIYI)"

## An Ambush Or A Spontaneous Reactioñ Auhianst The Army T. 476 P

"I THINK INiTIALLY MY REACTION WAS THAT WE HAD MOVED INTO AN AREA
WHERE THEY HADN'T EXPECTED TO FIND US IN. I CERTAiNLY, AS FAR AS I
CAN REMEMBER, THE IMPRESSION I GOT WAS - SEEING THIS PERSON RUNNING
ACROSS THE ROOF, I DIDN'T ACTUALLY SRP. ANYBODY AT THE TIME OTHER
THAN THAT PERSON WHAT I BELIEVED TO BE ARMED, I DIDN'T ACTUALLY
SEE ANYBODY ELSE IN THE AREA - BUT THEN AGAIN L WAS CONCENTRATING
ON ONE PARTICtJLAJt ROOF WHERE I BEI JFVED THE FiRE TO HAVE COME
FROM. I WOULD SAY THAT WHAT I FELT WAS - WE HAD GONE INTO AN AREA
THAT HADN'T BEEN ENCROACHED FOR TWO YEAR AND THAT PEOPLE WERE
IN THEIR - AND THEY WERE ARMED.. .WHOEVER THAT PERSON WAS ON THE
ROOF, HE CERTAINLY WASN'T ANY OF OUR PEOPLE BECAUSE OUR PEOPLE
WEREN'T UP ON THE ROOFS AT THAT TIME....(496) I COULN'T HONESTLY SAY
IT WAS A SET AMBUSH FOR US. MY REACTION TO IT WAS IT WAS A PANIC,
INSTINCTWE SHOOT BECAUSE PEOPLE HAD COME INTO THE ASEA AND THAT
THEY WERE JUST SHOOTING AT ANY TARGET THAT PRODUCED 1TSPJP TO
THEM.. SM TALKING ABOUT THE IRA THEY SAW THE PEOPLE COME INTO
THE AREA AND THEY FIRED ON WHAT THEY SAW. AND CERTAINLY THE
AMBULANCE PIG WAS CLEARLY MARKED AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED AND
ANYBODY ELSE WOULD BE CONCERNED, AS AN AMBULANCE PIG. YET IT WAS
DEFINITELY FIRE ON
                    (5 18)1 WOULD SAY THE FEELING WAS AFTERWARDS
THAT THEY HAD BEEN TAKEN BY SURPRISE, THEY WEREN'T EXPECTING,
CERTAINLY, THE ARMY TO COME INTO THE AREA.

      "AND ONCE THEY SAW THAT THEY HAI) COME THROUGH THE BARRICADES
      AND WERE APPROACHING INTO THE FLATS THEMSELVES, THEY JUST PULLED
      OUT ANYTHING THEY HAD AND THEY STARTED TO FIRE ON OURSELVES THAT
      WERE MOVING INTO THE AREA.. .THAT' S MV REACTION. THAT' S WHAT I FEEL
      HAPPENED IT WASN'T A SET AMBUSH BECAUSE I THINK THEY WERE TAKEN
      TOTALLY BY SURPRISE - AS WE WERE. ONCE WE MOVED INTOTHE AREA QWE
      CERTAINLY DIDN'T EXPECT A SHOOTING BAnLE. WE WAS NEVER BRIEFED
      THAT THERE WOULD BE ANYTHING LIKE IT. WE WERE BRIEFED THAT IF
      ANflH1NG WAS GOING TO HAPPEN THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE A CIVIL
      DISORDER SITUATION AND NOBODY WAS GEARED UP FOR A SHOOTING
      INCIDENT OF THE TYPE THAT WE FACED AT THE 'liME. (538 OUT)"
S536
      "THEY FIRMLY BELIEVED THAT THEY WERE DEFENDING THEIR HOMELAND,
      THEIR PIECE OF TURF - AND HERE WERE THESE PARAS THAT HAD INTRUDED
      RIGHT INTO THE AREA, AND THEY WERE GOING TO BLOODY WELL DFEEND
      THEMSELVES. BUT THAT WAS WHY IT WAS SO ILL-ORGANISED. I MEAN IF
      THAT HAD OF BEEN A SET AMBUSH, I lvffiAN THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN DEAD
      SOLDIERS AND THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN A MASSIVE GUN-BATTLE. I MEAN
      YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT MAYBE 26 PEOPLE WOUNDED. OUR LADS
      COULD HAVE KILLED 26 PEOPLE 114 TWO SECONDS. THEY COULD HAVE
      KILLED 36 PEOPLE JUST LIKE THAT (SNAPS FINGERS)... .THEY WERE TAKEN BY
      SURPRISE. SUDDENLY, IN THIS AREA, YOU HAI) ALL THESE BOYS WITH RED
      BERRIES AND RIFLES IN THEIR HANDS, CHARGING THROUGH
      BOYS WERE GOING IN, DIGGING OUT WEAPONS WHEREVER THEY COULD IN
      A TOTALLY TI T -DISCIPLINED FASHION AND THEY WERE. FIRING POT-SHOTS...

## 570

"I THINX IT WEAS A TOTAL PANIC SITUATION. THEIR AREA WAS ACTUALLY
BEING INVADED AN!) THEY GRABBED WHATEVER WAS AVAILABLE TO THEM
AND THEY RETURNED FIRE. AND A LOT OF TITLE PEOPLE, I'M SURE, THAT
WERE FIRING OÑ US AT THE TIME WERE INEXPERIENCED. THERE WERE
CERTAINLY PLENTY OF TARGETS THERE TO FIRE AT. AND THERE WAS A LOT
OF US ABOUT.

"lT CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BEEN THE BIGGEST INSULT THAT THEY HAD
EVER HAD - THAT THIS AREA WHICH THEY HAD ESTABLISHED AS FREE
DERRY WAS SUDDENLY INVADED AND TOTALLY COMPROMISED. YEAH - YOU
CAN CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND THEIR POINT OF VIEW - THERE BUT FOR
FORTUNE GO ALL OF US. YOU KNOW, WE COULD EASILY HAVE BEEN BORN
IN THOSE AREAS, YOU FEEL EXACTLY THE SAME.".

## Side 3 Coming Under Fjre -2

"IT WAS THE GUNFIRE THAT WAS COMING IN - OR THE ROUNDS THAT WERE
STIRRING ABOUT. I'M TRYING TO DISTINGUISHNOW BETWEEÑ OUR FIRE AND
THEIR FIRE AND CERTAINLY THERE WAS THOMSON SUB-MACHINE GUN
ROUNDS WEICH ARE DISTINCT TOTALLY FROM SIS ROUNDS, YOU KNOW,
WHICH ARE SINGLE ACtiON. AND ITS NOT WHAT YOU SAW - ITS WHAT YOU
HEARD. ALL WE WERE BASICALLY IN THEN AT THAT STAGE WAS A
CONTAINMENT SITUATION. WE WERE TOLD TO HOLD TITE GROUND THAT WE
HAD GAINED

155

"ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I CAME HERE TONIGHT IS BASICALLY TO PUT
THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON WHAT I HEARD"

208

"AS WE GOT INTO ACTUALLY WHERE THE ROSSVLLLE FLATS ARE - THE
GUNFIRE STARTED
                 ITS NOT THERE NOW, BUT THERE WAS A BURNT OUT
CAR IN THE. MIDDLE OF ROSS VILLE FLATS. NOW WHEN I GOT ROUND THERE
MY PLATOON SERGEANT SAYS - FOR CHRISTS' SAKE, EVERYONE STARTED
TAKING COVER. AND THERE WAS ME IN THE OPEN WITH ALL THIS SKIT
COMING DOWN.

ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT B ULLETS NOW?

OH - YEAH, YEAH. NOW I WASN'T ARMED BECAUSE I WAS WITH THE RADIO
AND THERE WAS A BURNT OUT CAR THERE AND I WAS TOLD: GET BEHIND
THERE AND STAY THERE. AND THERE WAS ONE GUY LET TO COVER ME AND
HE WAS STANDING JUST ROUND THE CORNER - THERE WAS A WEE CORNER
THERE - WHERE HE COULD SEE ME. AND HE COULD HEAR ALL THIS GOING
DOWN WHEN THE PLATOON SERGEANT SAYS WE'VE GOT TWO DEAD UP THE
ROAD.. .AND 114 ACTUALLY FACT THEY WERE PUT IN THE BACK OF THE PIG,
THE SARACEN.. ..THE FIRING WAS QUITE HEAVY AND THERE WAS NO WAY -I
MEAN I WASN'T ARMED AND THERE WAS NO WAY I WEAS GOING TO MOVE
FROM BEHIND THAT CAR.

WHERE DID YOU THINK THE FIRS WAS COMING FROM?

"OH - WE KNEW WHERE IT WAS COMiNG FROM. IT WAS COMING FROM THE
BLOODY FLATS.

IS THERE ANY DOUBT ABOUT 2TL4T?

"NO TWO WAYS ABOUT IT.. ,BECAUSE I WAS STUCK IN THE MEDDLE OF THE
AREA ON MY OWN....IF YOU'VE EVER BEEN STUCK ON YOUR OWN WHEN
THERE'S LOADS OF FIRE - I HAD THE CAR BETWEEN MIE ANT) THE FLATSD
AND I ACTUALLY SAT WITH MY CJFß Ijp VflTH THE RADIO ON AND II
ALWAYSD REMEMBER LIGHTING A FAG AND COUGHING LIKE. MAD THERE'S
NOT MUCH YOU CAN DO WHEN YOU'RE NOT ARMED."

## 312

"THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH ANY OF OUR
LADS WOULD HAVE OPENED PIRE THAT DAY FIRST. THE
                                                        ONLY
CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH THEY WOULD HAVE OPENED FIRE BEFORE
THEY'D BEEN FIRED UPON WAS IF THEY HAD POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED A
GUNMAN OR GUNMEN WHOM THEY THOUGHT WERE ABOUT TO OPEN FIRE."

OR - IF YOU HAD HEARD GUNFiRE AND WANTED To GET THE GUY'S HEAD DOWN

## S

"NO BUT I'M ANSWERING THE QUESTION OF WHO FIRED FIRST THERE'S NO
WAY OUR LADS WOULD HAVE OPENED FIRE FIRST UNLESS - THE ONLY ONE
CIRCUMSTANCE THAT I CAN THINK OF... .15 IF A GUNMAN OR GUNMEN
POPPED UP WITH SOME WEAPONS, THE BOYS WOULD NOT HAVE TURNED
ROUND AND ASKED FOR PERMISSION TO OPEN FIRE. THEY WOULD HAVE
IMMEDIATELY DIRECTED FIRE AT THE THREAT. THE WHOLE HISTORY OF THE
BATALLION UP UNTIL THAT TIME IN NORTHERN IRELAND... SHOWED THAT
PEOPLE DID NOT OPEN FIRE WILLY-NTLLY - THEY ONLY OPENED FIRE WHEN
THERE WERE GUNMEN AGAINST THEM BECAUSE IF THAT HAD OF BEEN THE
CASE YOU'D HAVE BEEN OPENING FIRE EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK AND THE
RECORDS WOULD SHOW THAT IN ACTUAL FACT THE BOYS MAYBE ONLY
OPENED FIRE MAYBE ONCE A FORTNIGHT OR SOMETHING I lICE THAT. IT WAS
ONLY WHEN GUNFIRE WAS DIRECTED AT THEM....

## Ww The Eye-W S In The Tir .Ard Were Wr Qed Fire Firfl P 390

"THERE IS A LOT OF CREDIBLE WITNESSES THAT SAY: YES - THE PARAS DI])
GET OUT OF THEIR VEHICLES ANMD START FIRING BECAUSE THEY WERE
LOOKING TOWARDS THE PARAS. THEY WEREN'T LOOKING ON THE ROOFS
BEHIND THEM. ALL THEY HEARD WAS FIRING. MOST OF THEM WERE
RUNNING FOR COVER. YOU CAN'T TELL ME THAT ANY OF THEM STOOD
THERE AND ACTUALLY SCANNED AROUND WHAT WAS TAXING PLACE AT THE
TIME. I WOULD SAY - YES, THEY PROBABLY DID SEE PARAS JUMPING OUT OF
THEIR VEHICLES AND FIRING - SIMPLY BECAUSE THE PARAS WERE UNDER
FIRE. THE FIRE THAT THEY SAW WAS COMING FROM THE PARAS BECAUSE
THAT WAS THE DIRECTION THEY WERE LOOKING. THEY DIDN'T SEE THE FIRE
THAT WAS COMING FROM BEHIND THEM, OVER THEIR HEADS TOWARDS THE
PARAS THE MAJORITY OF CIVILIANS THAT I SAW THAT DAY WERE LYING
DOWN TAKING COVER. THEY WEREN'T STANDING UP LOOKING AROUND
THEM.

## Why So Many Apparently Innocent People Wer Shot 457

'TM SURE THERE'S TERRIBLE MISTAKES IN EVERY CONFLICT - RIGHT OR
WRONG. 13M. I- I - ITS VERY DIFFICULT - I COULDN'T EVEN BEGIN TO - TO -
GIVE YOU A REASON WHY PEOPLE SAY THEY HAD WHITE FLAGS, PEOPLE SAY
THEY HAD THEIR HANDS UP AND THEY WERE INDISCRIMINATELY SHOT. I
CERTAINLY COULDN'T SAY THAT I SAW ANYTHING LIKE THAT HAPPENiNG AT
ALL AND AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE MILiTARY
FOR 20 YEARS AND I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT HAPPENING YET."

## Scovering Up A}Uer A Mistake

                 580
                                                  AO taLQQ,
  tKNGk' TAKE ANQflJEhLDELJBERATE YTRYThTG
                                                          J-
                                                            O
AUARDS. EVaRYC5DXS.. .CAP LE.OFD.OINÇs
                                                        t;tSHGt.
SOMEB0YÁNÏjrÑ4t.:GWTh ORCHIST-FTHOUGWrIrnA14&ÌGINQaZAIL
BOMB BUT IT WAS ONLY kBIG STONE. OH 5H11 ,)VLL. IDjBM:itISAY1It..
AèAm BOMB -. THAT COULD..HAVE HAPPENED NONE OF-ifS
                                                             RE'DENXfl.C.
 IAT--fl CO
             -
                HAVEHAPPENED...

Q: WET L, TO WHAT EXTENT DOES THAT SORT OF THING HAPPEN iN REAL
Lilt IN A COMMUNITY OF SOLDIERS WHO ARE BONDED VERY STRONGLY
TOGETHER LIKE YOU ARE IN THE PARACHUTE REGIMENT 7 TO WHAT EXTENT
TO YOU BACK EACH OTHER UP 7

"Z EtASa*fl}ffiPkRAC
' -aEGm4ENTTaANrrt&
SAN

           e-.
                          REGIMENT BECAUSE PEOPLE WOULI) BAer ThEMSELVE&LIJP;
THERE'S NO Gir fiNG AWAY FROM THAT BUT THE FACT IS THAT I ONLY
SEVRED IN THE MOTORMAN TOUR AND ON THAT TOUR WE WERE INVOLVED
IN QUITE A LOT OF INCIDENTS AND-NEVER ONCE, NEVER ONCE IN FOUR AND
A HALF MONTHS DII) ViE COMB BACK INTO THE BARRACKS AND SAY RIGHT
LADS, LETS SIT DOWN HERE AND GET THIS STORY RIGHT. NEVER ONCE DID
THAT HAPPEN
                                    IF ANYBODY WAS TRYING TO ALLUDE TO THE FACT THAT
THERE WAS SOME SORT OF ETHOS IN THERE, IN THESE PARAS WHO WENT IN -
 AS SOON AS THEY GOT AN OPPORTUNITY, AN EXCUSE, THEY WOULD GO
BESERK WITH THEIR SLR RIFLES - IT JUST WASN'T TRUE."

## Whether Soldiers Wod Fire At A Target If Civilians Were In Tue Way 678

(ANSWERING A QUESTION FROM JOHN ABOUT WHETHER SOLDIERS WOULD FIRE
ATA TARGET EVEN IF fIERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE RUNNING A CROSS THEIR LINE
OF F1RE)
"I WOULD SAY 114 MY EXJ'ERJENrF. OVER 20 YEARS OF THE TROUBJ ES IN
NORTHERN IRELAND, GENERALLY SPEAKING 99% OF SOLDIERS IN BRITAIN
WOULD NOT FIRE IF THEY THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE GOING TO HIT
SOMEBODY WHO WAS UNARMED. ONE OR TWO GUYS MIGHT, YES.. .BECAUSE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IS, I WOULD IMAGINE, YOU SEE A GUNMAN ANT) YOU
DON'T SEE ANYTHfl'G ELSE. YOU JUST SEE THE GUNMAN ON YOUR OWN
TODD AND YOU'RE TRYING TO GO FOR THE GUNMAN. BUT MOST PEOPLE
WOULD IMMEDIATELY PERCEIVE: MY GOD - YOU JUST CAN'T DO THAT... .YES
IT COULD HAPPEN. ONE OR TWO INDIVIDUALS WOULD OPEN FIRE EVEN
THOUGH THERE WERE CIVILIANS WHO WERE NOT ARMED RUNNiNG ABOUT
THE PLACE BUT I WOULD SAY THE GENERAL RULE WOULD BE: NO THEY WOUDN'T DO IT?

## Side 4 Difficulty Of Identifying The Gunman - Z Lo

"LOOKING AT lT FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, YES - I COULD SEE n] HAPPENING
COS THE BLOKES WOULD BE HYPED UP - THEY' RE EXPECTING A GUNMAN TO
COME. SUDDENLY 4 PEOPLE DASH OUT: BANG - BANG - BANG. I MEAN
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A SPLIT SECOND. HE COULD HAVE THOUGHT: OH!
MAYBE THE FIRST ONE HAD HIS HAND IN HIS JACKET OR HIS ARM DOWN
CSOMEWHERE AND HE THOUGHT: OH - HE'S GOING TO BRING A RIFLE UP OR
A PISTOL UP OR SOMETHING AND - BANG - BANG. I MEAN - YOU DON'T
KNOW...(30) YOU'VE GOT YOUR ADRENALIN UP, RIGHT, AND YOUR TOLD,
RIGHT, THERE' S A GUNMAN IN THERE SO YOU 'VE GOT TO GO IN AND HOUSE-
CLEAR - RIGHT. SO, I MEAN, LETS BE HONEST. IF SOMEBODY COME BURSTING
IN THAT DOOR ACROSS THERE AND THEY HAD THEIR HAND LIKE THAT IN
FRONT OF THEM - MAYBE THEY'D BE RUNNING - ftJ(j) THEIR HAND JUST
WENT IN FRONT OF THEM. YOU'RE EXPECTING A GUNMAN. if COULD
HAPPEN. SOMEBODY COULD OPEN UP....(38)...FEASIBLYrFtOULD HAPPEN.
THE FELLA COULD BE THAT HYPED 13? WITH HIS ADRENALIN, HE SEES
SOMEONE RUNNING ACROSS - IF THEIR ARM'S DOWN, HE THINKS IT'S A
PISTOL, HE'S GONNA PULL. ri' MIGHT JUST BE THE WAY HE RUNS. AND HE'S
FIRED FIRSt"

## Why So Many Were Killed That Day

"WITH MODERN HIGH-POWERED WEAPONS, PARTICULARLY WiTH SLR'S, IT'S
FEASIBLE FOR A BULLET TO TRAVEL THROUGH ONE, TWO OR THREE BODIES
WHICH WOULD ACCOUNT FOR PEOPLE BEING INJURED AS WELL AS KILLED.
SO PERHAPS SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE WOUNDED WERE HIT BY THE
SAME BULLET THAT KILLED ANOTHER PERSON. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
RICCOCHETS IN A BUILT-UP AREA.... SO THE ROUND HAS GOT TO GO
SOMEWHERE. IF lT DOESNT'T GO INTO A BUILDING IT'S GOING TO RICCOCHET
BACK IT DOESN'T ACCOUNT FOR ALL OF THE PEOPLE WOUNDED OR EVEN
KILLED - BUT I THINK IT'S PART OF THE EVIDENCE THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN
LOOKED INTO AND WASN'T.

## Is It Possible That A High Proportion Of Those_Shot Wer Oce37 People T

"I THINK IT IS TECHNICALLY FEASIBI F THAT A SMALL PROPORTION OF THOSE
PEOPLE WERE INNOCENT PEOPLE IN AS MUCH AS MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T
HAVE BEEN THERE BUT THEY CERTAINLY I$IDN'T DESERVE TO DIE, EVEN IF
THEY WERE ONLY THROWING STONES, THEY DIDN'T DESERVE TO DIE AND
NONE OF US ARE SAYING THEY WOULD BECAUSE OTHERWISE WE WOULD
HAVE SHOT PEOPLE OUT OF HAND DOZENS OF TIMES. MY OWN OPINIONIS -
YES - IT IS CERTAINLY POSSIBLE THAT A SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE WERE
INNOCENT IN AS MUCH AS THEY WERE NOT CARRYING GUNS AT THE TIME,
BUT NOT 13. WE COULD HAVE SLAUGHTERED 13 EVERY NIGHT OF THE WEEK.

"lT IS SURPRISING THAT THERE WERE ONLY 13 KILLED. FOR THE AMOUNT OF
PEOPLE THAT WERE ON THE STREET AT THE 11MB, if IS AMAZING THAT
THERE WAS SO LInLE KILLED....IF YOU LOOK AT OTHER INCIDENTS WHERE
HUGE DEMONSTRATIONS WERE TAKING PLACE AND SHOOTINGS OCCURRED,
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MASSIVE LOSS OF LIFE. I DON'T THINK THAT 1315
CONSIDERED A MASSIVE LOSS OF LIFE COMPARED TO THE AMOUNT OF
PEOPLE THAT WERE THERE. I'M CONFIDENT THAT MOST TARGETS WERE
MARKED BEFORE THEY WERE SHOT. lE THAT THEY WERE IDENTIFIED"

AND THAT THEY WERE GUNMEN OR BOMBERS?

"THEY WERE ONE OR THE OTHER, YEAR."

## (Cflr. 22A3, Thet3Estiui Fr'Mi 'Old

BUT NOT IN SIGHT OF THE SHOOtING.

?ORAL. AT BLOODY SUNDAY
SUNDAY. RE'S MII) 40'S.

ROYAL GREENJACKETS. AT BLOODY
(NUItS 01ML 1 ricuivi A LtJi'i IRA. Th4EXPERIENCED CORPORAL
TAPE BUT WONF SEE M
tflj NEIL. HE'LL PROBABLY GO ON
PLATOON, i PARA. AT BLOODY
SUNDAY - Ç1'RANSCRJLPT OF TAPED CONVERSATION WiTH NEIL HE WONT SEE
JOHN OR TONY)
RS. HE WAS IN THER GREENJACKETS
WHEN RE SERVED IN NORTHERN IRELAND FROM 1970-74. FROM THE BORDERS
TACHE. HE WAS INTHE
SAS AT BLOODY SUNDAY.Hrsntcvw UN I'flJlÇlflflLc.fl nLAÌ4D FROM 1971 FOR
18 MONTHS. HE'S ALSO SERVED IN THE MiDDLE EAST.

## Tjie Iwst Qiloths From Pur S9Ldej 711E Paras Reputation Training Tribalism Familyath1Ospi1Epe

Wife! T liS LIKE 7X1 BE UNDER FIRE
mm bi
«J * I
DPI
YPJJflW CARD
r
&VWA AMMTJN1TION

## 271E 41W)' Invesztga Lyon Branch - 713E Sib Dirty Tricks

WHAT HA PPENED AT BLOODY SUP/DA Y
ATB
WiDER
:CKI
TYlER
"n
«I
$OLDIEThV AS POLICEMEN

## 711E Paras Reputation

(25) "V VE HEARD IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN: HERE COMES A PARA, DONT FLICK
WITH HIM. AND THEY GET OFF THE STREETS BEFORE YOU STARTED MOVING
- THEY'D GET OFF THE STREEtS
                                AND THAT'S NO BUILLSHIT. ? APPEAR IN
THE STREETS IN CATHOUC AND PROTESTAN]) AREAS, AND TEE CRIES WENT
UP: HERE COMES THE PARAS AND THEY START LFGGING IT. COS THEY KNOW
IF THEY HANG AROUND THEY'LL GET LIFTED.

## Q: So - What'S The Basis Of That Reputation? ,A:

  THE FACT THAT THEY KNOW THAT WHT WE COME INTO ANY AREA WE
WOULD STOP ANY TROUBLE IN THAT AREA.
                                     . WE WOULD NOT ALLOW
PEOPLE TO HANG AROUND IN THE STREETS, BUILD INTO CROWDS AND CAUSE
TROUBLE... .THEY KNOW W}LkT;S GONNA HAPPEN TO THEY GET THE HEIL
OFF THE STREETS

## Q: (27) Which Is An Aggressive Technique - Its (30 And Get Them, Is That Right?

A: YES.. .WE WERE USED AS A FIRE BRIGADE. WHENEVER THE RIOT GOT TO A CERTAIN LEVEL AND THEY WANTED lT QUELLED, YOU WERE CALLED IN
A BROUGHT IT.

## Training, Trib.4J.Sism, Family Atmosphere

    TOUGHEST TRAINING IN OF ANY IN THE ARMY.. .ONLY TAXE THE TOUGHEST
    IN THE PARAS. GOT TO BE A PSYCHO TO GET IN. AGGR.O BOUND. ASSAULT
    TROOPS. MAXIMUM VIOLENCE IN MINIMUM TIME. NEAREST THING TO A
    KAMIKAZI IN TIlE BRITISH ARMY. GO - GO - GO. IN NORTHERN IRELAND, SEEN
    AS THE HARDEST, TOUGHEST, BADDEST. GWE 'EM STICK THEY KNOW AND
    WE KNOW. SEE THE BERET AND THEY KNOW WHAT'S COMING, WHAT LT'S
    AIL ABOUT. LIKE TYSON IN THE RING: DOMINATE, SORT OUT,
    UNPREDICTABLE, KICK SHIT OUT OF 'E4 WHY SEND US IN IF THEY WANTED
    SOCIAL WORKERS?
r

SENSE OF PRIDE - HAVING A PRICE ON YOU READ. MADE US FEEL TOUGHER.
RECKON SOME OF THEM WANTED TO LIVE UP TO THAT REPUTATION. HAD TO
BE SEEN TO BE HARD MEN.

(31)"I CAN REMEMBER BEING TAKEN OUT OF? BARRACKS, YOU KNOW 60 ODD
BLOKES IN DENIMS ANDBOOTS AND PT VESTS AND DOUBLED ACROSS TO THE
ASSAULT COURSE.. .AND YOU WERE JUST SENT ROUND IT AND ROUND n' FOR
A 45 MINUTE PERIOD... YOU MAY HAVE RUN ROUND THAT ASSAULT COURSE
120 TIMES. YOU WERE COMPLETELY SHAnERED. YOU WERE DEAD. ROUND

ABOUT
THE TEWH lIME YOU WERE CLAWING UP THE WALLS AND FALLING
OFF THE TOP AND CRAWLING THROUGH THE MUD AND?. lT WAS JUST MIND
BOGGLING: OUT TO KILL YOU PHYSICALLY. YOU GEl' BACK TO BARRACKS.. YOU GET CLEANED Ii? AND THEN YOU' RE ONTO SOMETHING ELSE."
Q: SO Al- ItR YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH THAT PRETI'Y ROUGH TRAINING, HOW DO YOU REGARD YOURSELVES?

A: FIT. FIT....

Q: DO YOU SEE YOURSELVES AS AN ELITE FORCE?

A: OH YES, DERNITELY, DEFINITELY. WHEN YOU FIRST PASS-OUT...YOUFFPJ. IT, YOU FPP.T SUPER-TROOPER. COMPRENDEZ9

## Training, Tribalism, Family Atmosphere

(12) Q: A TOUGHER FORCE?

A: VERY MUCH SO.

Q: DOES THAT LEAD YOU TO BE ARROGANT?

A: YES.

## Q: Aggressive?

    A: WELL YOU WOULDN'T LAST IN THE PARAS OR GREENJACKETS IF YOU
    WEREN'T BASICALLY AGGRESSIVE.. :.(13)INTHE ELITE FORCRS YOU . . ..HAVE
)
    A TENDENCY NOT TO GIVE UP WHERE AN ORDINARY DOLDIER WOULD. YOU
    HAVE A TENDENCY TO GO ON UNTIL YOU CAN'T GO ANY FURTHER.. * .(14)
    YOU'RE THINKING. YOU WILL TAKE RISKS. YOU'RE ARROGANT. YOUR FF."

(S) A: IT
            ST TAKES THE BASIC MILITARY TRAINING TO ITS EXTREME TO
MAKE A BEtTER SOLDIER.

## Q: They'Re Tough?

A: VERY TOUGH. YOU HAVE AN ASSESSMENT I THINK WHICH LASTS ABOUT
A YEAR IN ALL. YOU CAN GET 300 ON AN ASSESSMENT ANDYQU MIGHT ONLY
GET FIVE AT THE END OF THAT THAT ARE ACTUALLY CHOSEN.

## Q: The Res Are Rejected For What Reason? --

A; UNFiT, CAN'T COPE, CANT HANDLE n OR mST NOT GOOD ENOPUGH AT
THE TIME....

(7) Q: ARE YOU BEING TAUGHT TO SURVIVE?

A ABSOLUTELY. THAT'S THE NAME OF THE GAME. IT'SLIFE. IT'S SURVWAL.

## What Ils Like To Be Under Fire

16) A: IT'S AN ADRENALIN SURGE THE EXCITMENT TAKES OVER.

Q: SO YOUR FIRSTC INSTINCT IF YOU'RE SHOT AT IS FEAR. BUT lT QUICKLY
DISAPPEARS BY EXCITEMENT A: AN ADRENALIN SURGE - WHICH YOU CONTROL. YOU'VE GOT TO CONTROL, BUT YOU WANT TO GO.

Q: BECAUSE OF YOUR TRAINING?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU DO THEN. WHAT DOES TRE ADRENALIN
SURGE TURN YOU INTO?

A: I'M A TRAINED KrLLER.

Q: TRAINED KILLER?

A: YES. OH YES. DEFINiTELY.

## The Diffictiliy Of Ideniyfying 271E Gunmen

     (8) A: DISCRIMINATION IN AN URBAN SITUATION BETWEEN A CIVILIAN
     AND THE PERSON WHO POTENTIALLY COULD KILL YOU - THAT'S THE REAL
     PROBLEM. WHEREAS IN WAR, IP IT MOVES YOU SHOOT.... BUT THA.T WAS
     YOUR TRAINING... .THE LINES WERE CAREFULLY DRAWN THERE. WELL
     THEY'RE NOT IN NORTHERN IRELAND. ThIRE AREN'T LINES- YOU KNOW, YOU
     COULD HAVE A FRIEND ON ONE SIDE AND THE ENEMY ON THE NEXT SIDE
     AND NOT KNOW WHICH IS WHICH UNTIL THEy STRIKE AT YOU.... (22)50
     ACTUALLY LOCATING HIM IS VERY DIFFICULT, VERY VERY DIFFICULT.... (26)
.BUT

         ONCE YOU'VE IDENTIFIED WHAT IS THE TARGET THE DECISION WHAT
     YOU THEN DO IS: DO I FIRE BACK AT THE TARGET 7.. .THE AMOUNT OF TIME
,
     YOU1VE GOT TO MAKE THAT DECISION.. .THAT MUST BE IvIILUONTHS OF A
     SECOND.. .(27)ANDTHAT DECISION, YOUR LIFE COULD DEPEND ON IT, SO YOU
     AINT GONNA TAKE A FORTNIGHT TO DECIDE WHETHER IT IS OR if ISN'T, ARE
     YOU 750 YOU'RE GONNA SAY: IT IS OR IT ISN'T. BANG.. ..(8) I DON'T THINK
    BLOKES WERE UNDER ANY ILLUSIONS ABOUT THAT
                                                 (9)INA WAR SITUATION
     YOU DON'T THINK, YOU DO IT. IN NORTHERN IRELAND, BECAUSE OF mb
    SITUATION OUT THERE AND BEING...SUBJECI' TO ALL THE LAWS, YOU THINK
    TWICE. THAT MAY WELL PUT YOU AT RISK. WHEN YOU THINK TWICE... .A.ND
    AT THE END OF THE DAY WE ALL LIVE IN THEM SITUATIONS IN FEAR OF
    DYING. NOBODY WANTS TO DIE...SOITHINK I'D THINK ONCE AND HOPE THAT
     I MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION.

Q: SO WOULD YOU SAY THERES'S A GREAT POTENTIAL FOR ERRORS TO BE
MADE BECAUSE OF THAT TENSION BETWEEN WANTING TO SAVE YOUR LIFE
AND WANTING TO RESPECT THE LAW AND MAKE SURE YOU'RE SHOOTING AT
THE RIGHT TARGET?

A: I THINK THERE ALWAYS IS. I THINK THERE ALWAYS IS... .END OF DAY ITS
ALWAYS AT BACK OF HIS MIND AND IF A SITUATION ARISES WHERE HE SEES
HE'S AT RISK, HE MAY REACT IN A WAY THAT WOULD BE DII±ICULT FOR
ANYBODY OIJTSIDE OF BEING A SOLDIER TO UNDERSTAND. HOW DOES HE
COPE WITH IT, YOU KNOW? I TELL YOU WHAT - HE WiLL COPE WITh LT
PROVIDING HE'S ALIVE AT THE END OF 1T.YOU KNOW. ...(18) I THANK IF I
WERE EVER IN THAT SITUATION WHERE IT WERE ME OR THEM, AND I DiDN'T
KNOW WHETHER HE WERE GOOD OR BAD, I'D DO MY BEST TO MAKE SURE I
WERE ALIVE AT THE NED OF IT AND IF IT MEANT THAT I GOrrA FACE SOME
COURT ON SOME CRIMINAL CHARGE AT THE END OF THE DAY, WELL SO BE
IT. SO LONG AS I WERE ALIVE I WOULDN'T CARE.

(11) A: IN THE OTHER PLACES WHERE YOU SERVE YOU KNOW EXACT

## (23) Q: What Was The General View Of Your Mates At The Time About The Yellow Card Instructions?

A: YOU THINK - BLOODY HELL, YOU KNOW, GOD ALMIGHTY HAVE I GOITA
THINK ABOUT THAT WHEN i GET OUT THERE. YOU KNOW THERE'S A LOT TO
THINK ABOUT AS A SOLDIER, DOING THIS, DOING THAT, DOING THE OTHER,
KEEPING YOURSELF ALWE AND THEN SOMEBODY INTRODUCES A RULE THAT
SAYS YOU CAN ONLY ENGAGE A TARGET PROVIDED THESE POINTS, YOU
KNOW, EXIST. AND THAT'S NOT EASY FOR ANY SOLDIER TO COME TO TERMS
WITH. SliT AT THE SAME TiME HE'S TAUGHT WITH A DISCIPLINE THAT HE
  OWS THAT THAT'S THEC WAY ITS GOT TO BE. . YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT
INEVITABLY PEOPLE WIT J GET THROUGH THE ARMY THAT AREN'T GONNA
ADHERE TO THAT SORT OF SITUATION, BUT I THINK THEY'RE WEEDED OUT
FAIRLY QUICKLY AND ON YOUR WAY, YOU KNOW.

    (60) A:YOU'VE GOTTA COME DOWN THEN TO THE SOLDIER OR TEE
    INDIVIDUAL'S INTERPRETATION OF lT AND WHETHER HE FELT AT RISK OR
    NOT. I'M AFRAID IF I FELT AT RISK AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE BEST
    WAY TO LESSEN OR RELIEVE IT ENTIRELY, THEN YES... .IMIGHT BREACH THE
    YELLOW CARD RULES AND SOMEBODY MIGHT HAVE ME UP FOR BREACHING
    THE YELLOW CARD. BUT SO LONG AS I HAVEN'T KILLED ANYBODY
    IRRESPONSIBLY, THEN I WOULDN'T BE TOO WORRIED ABOUT THAT. YOU
    KNOW, I MEAN, ITS SOSMETHING I WOULD HAVE TO WEIGH UP AT THE TIME,
    PROBABLY IN A SPLIT SECOND AND YOU MAKE THAT DEC1DSION, YOU DO iT,
    RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY, YOU DO IT....
PA;
      BUT YOU'RE SAYING THEREFORE UNDER PRESSURE, THE YFJ TOW CARD
    RULES ARE OPEN TO ON THE GROUND INTERPRETATION?

A: ISN'T ANY LAW? I DON'T TRINK THERE'S ANY LAW IN THIS LAND THAT IS
100%... AND QUITE OFTEN I WOULD THINK PEOPLE DO THINGS WHW1CH THEY
REGRET AND ARE AGAINST THE LAW BUT THE CIRCUMSTANCES ARE SUCH
THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHY THEY DID AND THEY'RE NOT FOUND
GUILTY YOU KNOW.

(20) A: NORTHERN IRELAND - YOU'VE GOT TO HOLD BACK A LOT MORE THAN
YOU WOULD DO IN ADEN. DIFFERENT RACE. NORTHERN IRELAND'S HOME,
Y'KEN.

Q: FT'S YOUR OWN PEOPLE YOU MEAN?

A: YOUR OWN PEOPLE, YES
                          YOU-GOT TO GO WITH THE LAW. Thou SHALT
NOT KILL ETC. YOU'VE GOT TO WATCHWHAT YOU'RE DOiNG AN BE POLiTE,
COURTEOUS WHERE YOU DON'T REALLY WANT TO BE COURTEOUS. YOU'RE
RESTRICTED IN THAT OF SOMEBODY SHOOTS AT AND STARTS RUNNING
AWAY, YOU'VE GOT TO SHOUT AJFER Wflt "HALT. HALT OR IC WILL FIRE"
INSTEAD OF JUST BLOWING HIS HEAD OFF. AND IF SOMEBODY HILTS YOU
ROUM) THE HEAD WITH A FUCKING BRICK - EXCUSE ME MAN WHILE I KIT
YOU BACK, SORT OF THING. THAT'S THE BERST WAY I CAN EXPLAIN IT.

Q: DOES THAT MAKE YOUR T IVE MORE DIFFICULT?

A: VERY.

Q:WHY?

A:
   .iT CAUSES FRUSTRATION BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT TRAINED TO POUCE
PEOPLE. THAT'S A POLICEMAN'S JOB NOT AN ARMY JOB....

(47) Q: WHAT WAS THE GENERAL VIEW OF THE (YELLOW CARD) RULES '

A: THEY WERE RUBBISH.

Q: WHY 7

A: BECAUSE WE GOT THE ORDERS - IF YOU WERE FIRED AT, JUST PUT TWO
SNAP SHOTS, BUT IN ANY DIRECTION.

Q: WHETHER YOU SAW THE TARGET OR NOT 7

A: YES.

(53) Q: THE REASON FOR THAT, AM I RIGHT IN ThiNKING, WOULD BE AS A
DETERRENT 7

A: A DETERRENT YES...(54) IT DOES WORK AS A DETERRENT. THE SOUND
ITSELF WAS A DETERRENT.. .(47) PUT THEIR HEADS (BACK) INSTEAD OF
BLOWING YOUR HEAD OFF. I'LL DENY THAT MIND IF rr EVER COMES OUT.
I'LL TELL YOU THAT NOW BECAUSE THAT WAS A BATFALJON ORDER, THAT
WAS THE GENERAL RULES FOR NORTHERN IRELAND.

Q: WHAT - THAT YOU SHOULD PUT TWO SHOTS BACK IN THE GENERAL
DIRECTION. FROM WHAT LEVEL DiD THAT COME?

7 December 1991

## Yflww Card

A: OH, I WOULD SAY A COLONEL.. .(50) THE YELLOW CARD WAS MADE BY
POLITICIANS WHO WEREN'T ON THE STRtETS HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO PUT
THE YELLOW CARD INTO OPERATION ACTUALLY ON GROUND LEVEL 2 11
DOESN'T WORK. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO WORK WITH THE MENTALITY OF THE
IRISH PEOPLE WHO ARE NATURAL FIGHITERS ANYWAY. if IS IMPOSSIBLE TO
WORK.....(51) A LOAD OF RUBBISH MADE BY poLmcIANs WHO DON'T KNOW
THE FIRST THING ABOUT ACTUAL COMBAT OR STREET WORK. LOAD OF
RUBBISH.

## (56) Q: So You'Re Saying In Those Situations When You Are Under Fire Or Tna Riot, It Was Ignored

Q: GENERALLY"
A: YES.

Q: IN FACT NOT JUST IGNORED - YOU WERE ORDERED AT ONE POINT TO
IGNORE THE RULES OF FIRING, OF FIRiNG AT AN AINMED TARGET?

A: UNOFFICIALLY
Q:IS THAT BECAUSE THE NAME OF THE GAME ON THE STREETS IS BASICALLY
SURVIVAL?

A: IT'S STILL THE SAME TODAY.

## Q: So What Was The General View Of The Yellow Card Regulations

A: RUBBISH. IT'S A PoLITICIAN'S CARD. A POLITICIAN DOESN'T FIGHT WARS
A SOLDIER FIGHTS WARS, POLITICIANS JUST MAKE THE RULES IF YOU OWE
A POLITICIAN A RIFLE, A FLAK JACKET AND THAT YELLOW CARD AND PUT
HIM IN BALLYMURPHY, im WOULD LAST A WHOLE 30 SECONDS. YOU KNOW -
IT'S NOT TIff. Nj&Jffi OF THE GAME. THE NAME OF THE GAME IS LOOKING
AFI'ER YOUR MATES.

Q: WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT THEY ARE THEORETICAL RULES, MADE BY
POLITICIANS WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT THE REALITIES OF SOLDIERING ARE
AND THAT IT IS JUST NOT POSSIBLE TO STICK TO THOSE RULES IN NORTHERN
iRELAND 7

YELLOW Ct/to A: YES. IT ISN'T POSSIBLE.

Q: AND THAT SOLDIERS DIDN'T STICK TO THEM, GENERALLY?

A: YES.

Q: NOW DOES THAT MEAN THAT IP YOU HEARD A SHOT YOUR INSTINCT
WOULD BE TO FIRE BACK TWO OR THREE SHOTS IN THE DiRECTION OF
WHERE THE FIRE CAME FROM?

A:YES.

AS A DbibRPENT7
A: YES.

## Q: Even If You Couldn'T See The Target 7

A: YES. OF COURSE YOU WOULD. ITS WHAT YOU ARE TRAINED FOR, YOU
KNOW. YOU KNOW THE GENERAL AREA WHERE ITS COME FROM SO YOU PUT
A COUPLE OF SHOTS INTO LIKELY PLACES OF COVER. IF YOU GOT THE RIGHT
ONE, HE'S GONNA MOVE ISN'T HE? AND YOU MIGHT HAVE YOURSFTF A
TARGET, SO YOU WOULD DO IT. IT'S GOOD SOLDIERING.

iT'S WHAT YOU'RE TAUGHT, YOU KNOW. I MEAN IF ANY OF MY MEN DIDN'T
DO LT I WOULD BE SHOUTING AT THEM, I WOULD WANT TO KNOW WHY: WHY
HAVEN'T YOU RETURNED FIRE 7 NO TARGET 7 YOU'VE GOT LIKELY PLACES
OF COVER - TWO ROUNDS INTO EACH ONE - FIRE - AND I WOULD TELL HiM
TO DO lT....

I'VE SEEN US NOT ONLY DO THAT BUT MOVING INTO AN AREA AÌD MAKING
SURE THAT YOU GET IN WITH A MINIMUM POSSIBLE CASUALTIES, AS WE
WERE GOING PAST A STREET, EACH FORWARD MAN HiT THE DECK AND PUT
TWO ROUNDS DOWN THE STREET THEN EVERYBODY WENT ACROSS.

RIGHT? AND THEY DID THAT IN EVERY STREET GOING DOWN THIS AREA WE
WERE MOVING INTO. WE WEREN'T BEING FIRED AT OR NOTHING.

## Q: Just In Case?

A: JUST IN CASE... .I'M NOT SAYING EVERYBODY LIKE THAT WAS IN THE
REGIMENT. THERE WAS PEOPLE IN THERE WHO WOULD ABIDE BY THE
YELLOW CARD. BUT HE WAS A LIABILITY TO HIS MATES, TO HIS SECTION
AND, YOU KNOW, YOU'D WATCH HIM.

## Yellow Card

IT'S THE WAY THINGS WERE WITHIN THE REGIMENT.

Q: SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT WHEN YOU APP. TJNDER FIRE THERE IS NO TIME
TO CONSIDER WHETHER THE GUY WHO HAS JUST MOVED WHO YOU THINK
MIGHT HAVE A WEAPON OR A BOMB, REALLY HAS OR HASN'T? YOU JUST
SHOOT 2

A: YES. YOU KNOW, iTS INSTINCT - ALL INSTINCT. ITS THE TRAINING, ITS
EMBEDDED INTO YOU: ITS JUST A TARGET. rr MOVED. CRUMPH. SHOOT. RE
DOESN'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO HAVE A GUN. YOU MAY THINIC RE'S GOT
ONE AND - BANG. YOU JUST SHOT HIM BECAUSE RB WAS IN THAT
PARTICULAR AREA FROM WHERE SHOTS WERE FIRED YOU'VE ALSO GOT TO
BEAR IN MIND THE FEW TIMES WE'VE BEEN CAUGHT OUT, WHERE WE'VE
HAD A PROTEST OR A DEMONSTRATION... AND ITS ALL BEEN SET UP. CROWDS
ARE JUST PUSHED OVER TO ONE SIDE AND THEN YOU'VE GOT A COUPLE OF
GUNMEN FIRING DOWN ON YOU...:

YOU KNOW, TROOPS 114 NORTHERN IRELAND LEARNT AND MADE SURE FT
DIDN'THAflENTO YOU AGAIN. AND THAT COULD HAVE BEEN THE CAUSE OF
THESE INNOCENT PEOPLE OR DEMONSTRATORS GETING SHOT, YOU
KNOW... .IT COMES DOWN TO SURVIVAL - LOOKING AFTER YOUR MATES,
LOOKING AFTER YOUR BLOKES. THAT'S WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT.

THE COLOUR SUMS IT UP. THE IRA DON'T HAVE A YELLOW CARD. WHY

       WE LOSE MEN BECAUSE OF A FUCKING YELLOW CARD. TRE
OFFICERS KNOW IT - IF THEY LOSE A MAN THEY LOSE AUTHORITY. SO THEY
UNDERSTAND US, THEY LET US GET ON WITH THE JOB. ...rr's THE WAY
THINGS WERE DONE.

## Should

A: (11) WET i I GOT AN ORDER ONE TIME ANT) THE COMPANY COMMANDER
SAID TO ME, IF YOU COME UNDER FIRE PUT TWO OR THREE BACK IN THE
GENERAL DIRECTION. HE SAYS YOU MIGHT NOT ACHIEVE (2) ANYTHING, BUT
YOU MIGHT FRIGHTEN THEM. AND THAT'S WHAT WE USED TO DO
Q: (49) WHAT MADE AN OFFICER TELL YOU TO BREAK ARMY REGULATIONS?

## Yellow Card

A: WFT T WE HAD A LAD SHOT IN THE NECK, PARALYSED FOR LIFE. WE HAD
A COUPLE MORE SERIOUSLY INJURED IN RIOTING. WE HAD ANOTHER LAD
SHOT IN THE LEGS AND BASICALLY EVERY TIME WE WERE OUT ON PATROL
AT TRAIT TIME THERE WAS SOMEBODY COME BACK WITH CUTS AND BRUISES
AND THAT TYPE OF THING. SO I THINK IT WAS A CASE OF GO GET 'EM
BOYS.. .WE'VE HAD ENOUGH TAXING THE SHIT. WE'RE GONNA HAND A BiT
OUT. SO THAT'S WHAT I PUT lT DOWN TO.

## Q: Frustration?

WITH A GUN.. .AND IF A SHOT GOES OFF, IT TENDS TO SEND YOU ON A HIGH PITCH TYPE OF THING, YOU KNOW. YOUR ADRENALIN'S GONE UP. YOURB
WATCHING FOR ANYTHING YOU KNOW. I MEAN YOU CAN HAVE A WOMAN
OPEN A BROLLEY AND YOU THINK: AYE, AYE, SHE'S GOT A GUN...

## A: Yes. Being Held Back.....(40)1 Mean If There'S Four Or Fwe People P Q: And You Fire One Off 7

A: WELL, ITS VERY EASY.... YOUR FINGER THERE IS READY. I MEAN IT'S ONLY
A MArrER OF A SIXTEENTH OF AN INCH THAT YOU'VE GOT TO MOVE THE
TRIGGER...

Q: BUT WHAT ABOUT THE YELLOW CARD - YOU (SHOULD) IDENTiFY YOUR
TARGET AND BE SURE?

A: YOU FORGOT ABOUT THAT. YOU KNOW - YOU'VE GOT A OlIN THERE!

YELLOW CARD? ITS NOT FOOTBALL. YEAH, I MEAN THAT WENT BY THE WAY
IN MY COMPANY.

THE YELLOW CARD SYSTEM - WFJ.T, WE LAUGHED AT THAT....

## Extra Amm7Jnritqn

A: THERE'S ALWAYS SPARE AMMUNITION ABOUT MAN.

QTELL ME ABOUT THAT.

A: WELL YOU HAVE TO GO ON THE RANGES DON'T YOU. YOU GO ON TIlER
RANGES TO ZERO YOUR WEAPON.

## Q: You Mean To Check It?

A: WELL EVERY WEAPON YOU GET IS DIFFERENT TO EVERYBODY'S EYES.
THE WEAPON I flRE MIGHT NOT BE ACCURATE TO YOU SO YOU HAVE TO
ZERO if AGAIN - SEE HOW THE BACK SIGHTS AND THE FRONT SIGHTS IS SO
THAT lT FIRES STRAIGHT AND LOW.

## Q: So You Have To Practice Till You Get It Straight?

A: YES. SO WHEN YOU ARE ON THE RANGES YOU ALWAYS BROUGHT EXTRA
AMMUNITION WITH YOU.

Q: AND YOU DON'T FIRE AS MANY SHOTS AS YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO
FIRE AND POCKET THE REST?

A: YES, YES. Q: HOW COMMON WAS THAT?

A: QUITE COMMON. QUitt COMMON.

Q: WOULD MANY SOLDIERS TAKE EXTRA AMMUNITION OUT WITH THEM?

A: OH YES.

## Q:Why?

A: TO ACCOUNT FOR THE ROUNDS YOU HAD O FIRE IF THINGS WENT
WRONG.. .QUITE STANDARD PROCEDURE, YOU KNOW. I WOULD SAY THE
BOSSES KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON, THEY WERE QUITE WELL AWARE OF IT
YOU KNOW.

## Extra Ammunition

(50) A: WET J ANYBODY WHO DIDN'T HAVE BUCKSHEE ROUNDS WASN'T A
PROFRSSIQNAL SOLDIER... .A PROFESSIONAL. SOLDIER IS ALWAYS PREPARED
A: AND HOW DID YOU GET THEM?

A: FROM THE RANGES WHEN YOU'RE ZEROING.

Q: YOU MEAN %VHN y(»j'p TAXING YOW WEAPON TO CHECK IT FOR YOUR
EYESIGHT?

A: FOR LINE. YES.

## Q: How Easy Was It To Get Stuff Off The Ranges. Weren'T They Pretfy Strict 7

A: OH YES, PRETFY STRICT, BUT EVERYBODY HAS ROUNDS. PM NOT GOING
TO EXPAND ON TRAT FACT....

Q: BUT DON'T THEY SEARCH YOU?

A: NO. THEY WOK IN POUCHES AND THAT BUT THEY DON'T SEARCH YOU, NOT REALLY NO THAT'S DEGRADING FOR A SOLDIER
Q: WAS THAT COMMON?

A: YES.

Q: I MEAN, EVERYBODY DID IT?

A: YES.

Q:WHY?

A: PROTECTION.

Q; EXPLAIN THAT?

A: SOMETIMES [T WAS EASIER TO FiRE ROUNDS THAN USE ISSUE ROUNDS.

Q: WHY. WHY SHOULD IT BE EASER?

## Jije Bestoijotes From Our Soldiers Extra Ammunition

A: 20 ROUNDS 15 NOT MANY IN k GUNFIGHT, GUN BAI ILE. YOU MIGHT RUN
OUT OF 20 ROUNDS. YOU KNOW, iTS BEflER HAYING EXTRA SO YOU DON'T
RUN OUT. YOU RUN OUT - SOMEBODY CAN WALK OVER AND PUT A ROUND
IN YOUR HEAD, CAN'T THEY?

(80) Q: WHEN YOU CAME UNDER FIRE. .WAS IT THE GENERAL VIEW OF YOU
AND YOUR MATES THAT 20 ROUNDS JUST WASN'T ENOUGH?

A: THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S lt

## For You To Have It?

A: YES.

(66) Q: OK. THAT'S ONE WAY OF USING IT. BUT DID IT EVER COME IN HANDY
V.

## Q: In What Way?

A: DERRY. EVERY TIME YOU FIRED YOU HAD TO GO IN FRONT OF AN SIB. IF
YOU HAVE BUCKSHEE ROUNDS YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO INFRONT OF SIB DO
YOU, BECAUSE YOU NEVfl FIRED, DID YOU.

Q: SO YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO ACCOUNT POR WHAT YOU DID, THAT'S WHAT YOU MEAN?

-
A: EXACTLY.

Q: SO WAS THERE A SITUATION WHICH YOU FELT YOU HAD TO FIRE AN]) YOU
DIDN'T WANT TO ACCOUNT FOR IT.

## (He Motioned To Me To Turn Off The Tape)

Q: YOU WANT ME TO SWITCH THE TAPE OFF. OK I'LL TAKE NOTES.

A: I PUT 20 ROUNDS OF TRACER THROUGH ONE GUY WHO WAS FIRING AT ME
WITH A MACHINE GUN. HE WASN'T A VERY GOOD SHOT, YOU SEE. I AM. HE
DIDN'T MOVE VERY MUCH AFTER THE FIRST SHOT.

## Q: Then You Fl1D 20 Rounds Of Tracer 11Ffo Him?

A: I7ITHINIÇ IT WAS.

## Q: Out Of Frustration?

A: I'LL SAY THAT.... (66) FUN. GE1TING RID OF FRUSTRATION.

7 December 1991

## Extra Ammijnfi7On

Q: (NOTES) BUT THAT WASN'T THE REAL REASON WAS IT?

A: WELL I SHOT HIM COS HE WAS FIRING AT ME. THEN I JUST WANTED TO
SEE HOW GOOD A GROUPING I GOT - AND IT WAS QUITE A GOOD GROUPING.

## Q: How Good? A: About That Big

(HE PUTS THE THUMB AND FOREFINGER TIPS ON FACH HAM) TOGETHER To MAKE
A CIRCLE & INDICATE THE 5127? OF THE HOLE THAT THE TRA CER B ULLETS kL-IDE).

YOU DO YOUR JOB AND DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE RULES. IF YOU DON'T
HAVE YOUR OWN AMMO YOU'RE JUST NOT A PROFESSIONAL SOLDIER IN N.
IRELAND. EVERYBODY, EVERYBODY HAD THEIR OWN EXTRA AMMO.WE
WEREN'T PAID ENOUGH TO OBEY RULES OF PEOPLE WHO WERE NEVER
GOING TO BE THERE.

A: (19) . .WHENEVER YOU WENT TO THE RANGE, INSTEAD OF FIRING ALL THE
AQMMUNITION ON THE RANGE, YOU WOULD KEEP A FEW CARTRIDGES
  .NOW IF I WENT OUT WITH 20 ROUNDS, THEM 20 ROUNDS WERE IN ME

.OCMBAT
       JACKET COS I WASN'TC3OING TO LOSE THEM. TRE AMMUNITION I
  HAD IN ME POUCH WOULD HAVE ALL BEEN ILLEGAL AMMUNiTION OFF THE
  RANGE AND I WOULD HAVE BEEN CARRYING MAYBE 40/50 ROUNDS OF
  AMMUNITION PLUS THE 201 HAD BEEN ISSUED.

## Q: Wouldn'T You Have Been Court-Marshalled If You Had Been Caught?

A: WET J, I WAS AN NCO, I WERE DOING lT. ME LADS WERE DOING IT
BECAUSE WE THOUGHT IF WE WERE GONNA COME UNDER FIRE BY
ANYTHING HEAVIER. THAN AN ORDINARY RIFLE SHOT, WE'RE GONNA NEED
THE AMMUNITION TO FIRE BACK. OW IF YOU'VE GOT 4 ORS PEOPLE DROPPED
OFF IN A CHOPPER IN TIlE MIDDLE OF NOWEHERE AND YOU'VE ONLY GOT 80
ROUNDS BETWEEN YOU AND SOMEBODY OPENS UP ON YOU, YOU NEED A BIT
OF AMMUNITION TO FIRE BACK AND YOU NEED SOME THAT IS NOT GOING TO
BE COUNTED. SO IP YOU'VE GOT AN EXTRA 40 OR 50 ROUNDS A PIECE, YOU
CAN LET FLY BACK, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

## Ekira I4Mmijivition

AND THEN YOU'VE STIl T. GOT YOUR AMMUNITION HERE AND YOU CANSAY,
WELL I ONLY FI
                  THREE ROUNDS. ...WHTILE IT WAS IL! FOAL, PEOPLE
TURNED A BUND EYE TO IT.

(69) A: I MEAR n-Is NOT IMPOSSIBLE THAT A SOLDIER COULD GET SPARE
TÀMMUNITION AND HE COULD DO THAT EASILY BY GOING ON A RANGE WHEN
- DURING NORMAL TRAINING - INSTEAD OF FIRING 20 ROUNDS AT A
PARTICULAR TARGET THAT rflmyIRE SUPPOSED TO, IF HE FIRES TWO LESS
HIDES THEM SOMEWHERE, THEN THERE'S NO WAY OF KNOWING
WHETHER HE'S FIRED 20 OR 18... .IF THE INDIVIDUAL HAD A MIND TO GET
SOME AMMUNITION, THEN HE COULD GET IT.

## 711E Army Investigation Branch -71/E Sib

A: (52) I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. I OPENED FIRE ON SOMEONE A WHILE
AFTER BLOODY SUNDAY AND HE WENT DOWN AND I THiNK I HiT HIM 3
TIMES.. .NOW WHEN SIB (SPECIAL INVESTIGATION BRANCH) COME TO ME
THEY SAID WHAT HAPPENED I SAJD WELL I'M HERE ON THIS OBSERVATION
POST HERE, A CAR PULLS UP, GUNMAN GETS OUT AND HE'S CARRYING A
RIFLE. SO - WHAT DID YOU OPEN UP FOR (tHEY ASKED)? AND I THOUGHT:
WELL, I OPENED UP BECAUSE HE HAD A GUN.. .HESAID: RiGHT. WHAT YOU'LL

## Øay

IS THAT YOU AND YOUR MATE WEE ON THIS OBSERVATION POST, HE
EEN THE GUNMAN, YOU SEEN HIM POINTING HIS RIFLE IN THIS DIRECTION
AND YOU OPENED UP. HE (YOUR MATE) BACKS YOU UP ALE THE WAY.. .AND
THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. THEY CONDiTION you IN WHAT TO SAY.

Q: SO IN REAL LIFE, THE GUY YOU SHOT HAD A GUN, BUT HE HADN'T
POINTED IT AT YOU AND THAT WAS THE CHANGE IN THE STORY?

A:...WELL, THAT WAS THE CHANGE IN THE STORY.

(82) A: THE SIB, THEY'RE GUYS I HAD DEALINGS WITH, WERE DECENT GUYS.

I DON'T WANT TO EXPAND ON THAT FACT. THEY WERE DECENT GUYS.

COMPRENDEZ?

## K Q: Can'T You Be Slightly More Explicit For Me...?

A: THEY DIDN'T ASK VERY MANY QUESTIONS. COMPRENDEZ?

Q: SO YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT THEY KNEW AS WELL AS YOU THAT TO
STICK BY THE YPT Tow CARD RULES WAS IMPOSSIBLE?

A: I WOULD THINK SO.

Q: BUT IS IT RIGHT TO SAY THEY ALSO KNEW THAT AS FAR AS
INVESTIGATING A SHOOTING INCIDENTY, SAY, YOU HAD TO OR YOU'D END
UP IN THE DOCK?

A: YES.

Q: SO DiD YOUSEE THEM ON YOURSIDE?

A: YES.

Q: WELL if SOUNDS... ALMOST LUCE A CONSPIRACY?

A: NO. I WOULDN'T SAY IT WAS A CONSPIRACY.. .BASICALLY THE SIB DU)
THEIR JOB
BUT.. .THEY UNDERSTAND SOLDIERS. THEY'RE SOLDIERS
THEMSELVES.. THEY WENT THROUGH RIOTS AND THE BRICK AND SHiT AND
EVERYTHING THROWN AT THEM AND SHOTAT, YOU UNDERSTAND?

## Dir7T Tricks

   A: YOU WERE GEYFING ABUSE -CALLED BRITISH BASTARDS, HUMAN SHIT
THROWN AT YOU. DOC) SHIT THROWN AT YOU
                                           THEN OLD PEOPLE THAT
USED TO COOK FOR YOU, STARTED PUTrING POWDERED GLASS IN THE CAKES
- OH YES, CYAMDE OR POWDERED GLASS....

Q: SO HOW DID THAT AFFECT YOU AND YOUR. MATES?

   A: I PUT IT THIS WAY: HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOU'D BEEN GETTING
SHiT ALL DAY, ABUSE - VERBAL ABUSE - SHIT THROWN AT YOU, SPAT UPON,
THINGS THROWN AT YOU, ROCKS THROWN AT YOU, SEEING ONE OR TWO OF
YOTJ1 MATES WITH A BRICK IN HIS FACE AND BLOOD STREAMING DOWN:..
ONE PARTICULAR, WE WERE STANDING IN THE STRAND, WAS IT, LT WAS THE
OLD CHECKPOINT DOWN NEAR THE SEOPPING CENTRE, AND A LAS SIE ABOUT
18 YEAR OLD WALK UP TO unc4.vt. AND SHE HAD A PAPER. INJ{ER HAND,
LIKE THAT (HE DE&ÍONSTh!ATES) AND THERE'S AN AWFUL BIG DIRtY DOG
TURD IN lT AND SHE JUST WALKED UP AND STUCK IT IN HIS FACE. BRiTISH
BASTARD.... (34)

AND THEN YOU HAVE TO STAND THERE AND TAKE IT BECAUSE YOU'RE
UNDER ORDERS NOT TO RETALIATE. HOW WOULD YOU FFET 7 FRUSTRATION
I WOULD SAY.

THAT'S THE BEST WAY OF PUTI'ING IT... FRUSTRATING.... (43)ANY MAN IS
GOING TO RETALIATE.

(44) Q: TELL ME SOME OF THE WAYS IN WHICH YOU REPLIED TO THAT SORT
OF THING?

A: SWITCH IT OFF A MINUTE.

(HE IS FINGERING HIS A.R.MY KNIFE ThIROUGHOUTTHIS ARS WER - PARILYTURWING
lT IN HIS ¡L4Nj)5 AND PARTLY CLEANING HIS NAiLS WITH JIS TIP, IT LEATHER
THONG IS ON HIS LAP.)

A: I WAS SECOND ]N COMMAND OF A SECTION. MY OWN BOSS WAS UtaK 42'I:
HE'D TAKE GUYS OUT ON ONE PATROL AN]) I'D DO THE NEXT. THAT
MORNING THERE WAS SOME GUY WHO'D BEEN CALLING US BRiTISH
BASTARDS, LMEY BASTARDS AND THROWING BRICKS AT US HE'D HiT US
TWICE WITH THEM. MY FACE WAS CUT AND A LOT OF THE ABUSE SEEMED
TO BE DIRECTED AT ME. HE'D COME UP AN]) SAIDTO ME: "WHO'S YOUR WIFE
WITH THEN?" AND "I'LL BET SHE'S WITH A BLACK MAN." I'M NOT RACIST,
UNDERSTAND.

DiRTY TRICKS

BUT THAT'S WHAT HE SAID. WELL, AT 2AM I WENT OUT AND WALKED INTO
THE SAME GUY AGAIN. AND HE'S SHOUTING, YOU KNOW, BRITISH BASTARDS.
SO I TOOK OUT ME KMPE - NOT THIS ONE, BUT ITS BROTHER, AND STUCK IT
IN HIS GUTS, WIPED if ON HIS COLLAR AND PUT IT BACK ON MY LEG. THEN
I CALLED THE RUC AND TOW THEM THERE WAS ABODY LYING IN THE
STREET ETC ETC."....

## Q: Was He Dead 7

A: OH I THINK 50. YOU NORMALLY ARE WHEN YOU'VE NO HEART LEFT.

TAPE WAS NOW SWITCHED BA (X ON)
Q: WAS THAT SORT OF BEHAVIOUR COMMONPLACE OR NOT?

## P(711E

A: LATER, YES.

Q: OTHER SOLDIERS WERE DOING THAT?

A: LATER, YES....

## (41) D: Because Of The Pressure And The Frustration?

A: YES. PLUS YOU WERE GETrING SHOT AT NEARLY EVERY DAY. A LOT OF
THE BOYS WERE GEt fiNG BLOWN UP. YOU WERE CEnINO STONE])
REGULARLY
             TO ME,
                      I2 WAS VENGEANCE.. ..(68) SOMETIMES IF YOU
CARRIED A GREENER. YOU KNOW WHAT A GREENER IS?

Q: NO.

A: THATS THE WEAPON THAT FIRES RUBBER BULLETS SOME i IMES YOU TOOK
THE RUBBER 0131] AND PUT A COUPLE OF BAl FERIES EN IT. BAflERIES FIT, BY
THE WAY...

## Q: Why Would You Do That?

A: WELL, IT GOES BEITER ThAN A RUBBER BULLET. WHEN IT HITS, IT HURTS.

A: (101) IT WASN'T AN EASY UPE FOR SOLDIERS OUT THERE, YOU KNOW, WHAT THEY HAD TO PUT UP WITH... FIRING A RIFLE INTO A CROWD WHEN
YOU THINK YOU'RE BEING FIRED AT'S ONE THING.

## 7 December 1991 Dirty Tricks

TO PUT A BOMB IN A PUBLIC T011 ET OR A PUB TO GET INNOCENT PEOPLE IS
ANOTHER

   A: (91)1 THINK WE INTIMIDATED THEM MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE IN SOME
   WAYS
           (95)ITS PROFESSIONALISM. YOU DOMINATED THE GROUND, YOU LET
   THE PEOPLE KNOW you wn
                             mn TO DOMINATE THEM AND AS LONG AS
   THEY'RE DOMINATE]) THE CHANrES ARE VERY SLIM THAT THEY WOULD
   RETALIATE BECAUSE THEY'RE FRIGHTENED OF YOU. WHETHER YOU
   DOMINATED THEM BY NUMBERS OR YOU DOMINATED THEM BY FEAR, YOU
   DOMINATED THE GROUND AND TO ME THAT'S PROFESSIONALISM.
S: (96) SO YOU DOMINATED THEM BY BEING MORE PROFESSIONAL, BY BEING
   TOUGHER - BUT ALSO BY BEING DIRTIER?

A: YES. YOU'VE GOT TO PLAY AS DIRTY AS THEY ARE. I MEAN, LETS FACE IT
- THE IRA PLAY DIRTY, SO YOU'VE GOT TO PLAY AS DIRTY AS THEY DO...
(32)1 MEAN WE DID LOTS OF TRICKS ON 'EM, YOU KNOW.. .WE KNEW A
FAMILY WHO WAS VERY SYMPATHETIC TO THE [RA, IF NOT PART OF IT. SO
WHEN YOU FOUND A CACHE OF ARMS, RIGHT, YOU WOULD ALWAYS TAKE
SOME OF THE ARMS FROM THERE.. .AND WHEN YOU'D GO AN SEARCH THEIR
HOUSE, RIGHT, FROM TOP TO BOTTOM, WE MAKE A GOOD JOB OF IT. YOU'D
KNOW YOU WEEREN'T GOING TO FIND ANYTHING, BUT YOU USED TO LEAVE
THE AMMUNITION, RIGHT, YOU USED TO HIDE THE AMMUNITION WHICH
YOU'D..

## Q: While You Were Searching The House? -- : Yes. Then A Few Weeks Laths Another Patrol Would Go In, They -W- Would Search Ti House, Find The Ammunition And Turned Him Over, Got Him Put Away. That'S What You Used To Do. J Q: So There Was No Playing By Tele Rules?

A: OH NO. I MEAN THE ONLY RULE IS SURVIVAL.

## Q: (47) Do You Thilik The Catholics Feared You More Than The Other (Soldiers) Because They Knew You Would Play Dirty?

A: YES. OF COURSE, I MEAN THEY KNEW. THAT'S WHY THEY HATED US SO
MUCH.

Q:IT SOUNDS ALMOST A BIT LUCE TRIBAL WARFARE?

## Dirty Tricks

A: IT IS REALLY I MEAN WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT if, IT'S ABOUT RIGHT YOU
KNOW. . . dT WAS ALL INBRED INTO YOU DURING YOUR TRAINING, FROM
BEING TAKEN AS A RECRUIT WHEN YOU VOLUNTEERED, lT WAS ThIBRED INTO
YOU STRAIGHT AWAY YOU KNOW. YOU'VE GOT TO BEAR IN MIND THAT
WHEN YOU GO TO THE DEPOT AS A RECRUIT, YOU'RE SORT OF 18,19,20
YOU'VE GOT AN INSTRUCTOR WHO HAS MAYBE HAD ABOUT 7 OR 8 YEARS IN
THE REGIMENT... .11E CAN OUTRINK YOU; HE CAN OUTRUN YOU; HIE CAN
OUTFIGHT YOU; HE CAN OIJTBIIt YOU; HE CAN OUTDRINK YOU; HE CAN
OUTSWEAR YOU. HE'S YOUR MAM; HE'S YOUR DAD. HE'S YOUR WORST
ENEMY. RIGHT? AND HE TAKES YOU AND MOULDS YOU TO WHAT HE WANTS

TO BE.

.YOU

IF YOU'VE GOT A MEMBER OF AN ILLEGAL ORGANTSATION - 1F HE'S GOT A
RIFLE YOU SHOOT HIM. iF ..11E HAS A HIDDEN RIFLE, THEN YOU FIND A
METHOD OF Chi. IING RID OF HIM. YOU MAY FIN]) A CACHE OF ARMS . .AN)
YOU'D TAKE A PISTOL, AMMUNITION - RIGHT? ONE NICE DARK NICHT RE'S
COMING BACK FROM THE PUB, YOU SHOOT HIM, FIRE TWO OR THREE SHOTS
FROM THE PISTOL, PIJT THE PISTOL IN HIS HANDS. AS FAR AS ANYBODY'S
CONCERNED HE FIRED AT YOU, YOU RETURNED FIRE AND SHOT HIM AND
RE'S DEA]), HE'S OUT OF THE WAY.

## Q: Did That Happen?

A: YES. AND NOT ON ONE OCCASION. IT HAPPENED ON NUMEROUS
OCCASIONS. IT WAS A METHOD OF GETTiNG RB) OF HIM.... Q: HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD YOU SAY WERE ORDERED TO BE KNOCKED
OFF?

A: I HONESTLY COULDN;T REALLY SAY. I MEAN ITS GOT TO GO INTO A FEW.

ITS GOT TO GO INTO 6,7, 8,9 MAYBE MORE, MAYBE MORE.

## Q: How Do You Know These Things - Did You Take Part?

A: NO...WE KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON, WE WERE AWARE OF IT GOING ON
BECAUSE... YOU KNOW YOU JUST PUT TWO AND TWO TOGETHER....

## Q: So Nobody Tells You Explicrily?

A: NOBODY EVER WILL COUGH TO if. .J MEAN THE IRA WOULDN'T THINK
TWICE ABOUT PUTtING A BULLET THROUGH MY KNEECAP WOULD HE' HE
WOULDN'T THINK TWICE ABOUT SENDING ME TO THE DOG FACTORY AND
MAKING US INTO DOGMEAT. SO WHY SHOULD I CARE WHAT I DU) TO THEM?

## Dirty Tricks

Q: (97) DID NONE OF YOU GUYS THINK - HANG ON A MINUTE WE'RE BREAKING
THE LAW lIEBE?

A: YES. YOU'RE WELL AWARE OF WHAT YOUR DOING...BTJT THE THING IS, IT
CAME DOWN TO BEING WITHIN THE FAMILY. YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY KNEW
WHAT YOU WERE DOING BUT YOU WERE ALLtOGETHER. YOU NEVER SPLIT
ON EACH OTHER - YOU NEVER TALKED ABOUTIT. IT WAS JUST ONE OF THOSE
THINGS. YOU DID IT. YOU GOT ON WITH IT.

OUR TRAINING IS BEST. YOU DON'T SHARPEN A KNIFE AND THEN BLUNT IT
WiTH A SPONGE. WE TOOK THE SPONGE OFF. WE TERRORISED THE
TERRORiSTS: WE KNEW WHO THEY WERE, WHAT THEY DONE SO ThBY TAKE
THE PUCKERS OUT. KILLING EACH OTHER. WE DUMPED THE BODIF-S IN
ANOTHER AREA. FUCKJING OBVIOUS ISN'T lT. THE PRESS 7 WHAT DO THEY
KNOW ABOliT ANYTHING, WHAT ARE THEY TOLD'
                                                 QUARTERMASTEIt
SEARCH HOUSE. NEXT NIGHT GO TO WHERE WE DUMPED STUFF OFF NIGHT
BEFORE. ARREST. EVEN SAY HE GOT GUN OUT - YELLOW CARD, PROBLEM
OVER. TRUST EAVCH OTHfl, SURVIVE
                                  SEARCH, TAKE CASHFRO DRThTKING
MONEY. lT WAS THE ACCEPTED THING.

WE GOT AWAY WITH MURDER - I MEAN MURDER. PEOPLE GOT BEATEN UP -
HOUSES SMASHED AND A FEW WERE DROPPED (KILLED) THEY (tHE
OFFICERS) GAVE THE TOMS (SOLDIERS) LOADS OF ARMY & NATIONS
(PROPAGANDA) ABOUYT FÇHE MICK TERRORIST - DIRTY TACTICS, RULE BY
FEAR. SO THE TOMS THOUGHT, ALRIGHT WE'LL GIVE THEM A TASTE OF
THEIR OWN... .T}IE BOYS WOULD ROLL A FEW DRUNKS, FUCK ABOUT WITH
THEM, KNOCK THEM AGAINST A WALL, TAUNT THEM WEITH BEING IN THE
IRA.. .DIDN'T ENDEAR YOU TO THE POPULATION... .1 WOULD SAY WE HAI)
BULLY BOYS AND SHOULD HAVE JUMPED ON THEM, THINGS GOT OUT OF
HAND.

## Dirty Tricks

   A: (14) WE HAD BEEN GETTING A HELL OF A LOT OF HASSLE - WHETHER lT BE
   FROM KIDS CHUCKING BRICKS AND BOTTLES AND THIS AND THAT AND THE
   OTHER. IF YOU'RE TEERE AND ITS GOING ON 24 HOURS A DAY, DIFFERENT
   TEMES, AND YOURE WALKiNG DOWN THE ROAD AND WOMEN ARE SPUTINO
   ON YOU, YOU DON'T FEflI IN A VERY PLEASANT MOOD TOE SAY GOOD
   MORNINOE.,.I MEAN 1F THEY SAY: YOU DIRTY RCYITEN BRITISH BASTARD, YOU
   UMEY BASTARD AND THEY HAPPENED WERE NE&Jt THE RIVER YOU WOULD
   JUST BOOT AND - OH, SHE'S FELL IN THE RIVER. AND THAT'S WHAT
 SHAPPENED I MEAN I SEEN ONE GIRL GO OFF THE DFK OF A SHIP. .11' WAS
___:j4pp HATRED AND if GOT TO YOU THAT WAY BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE
rrnT.G YOU: WATCH YOUR BACK, WTACH YOUR BACK - THEM BASTARDS
   WANT TO KILL YOU. IF THEY CAN THEY'LL BLOW YOUR HEAD OFF.. ..(16) I
   THINK AT FIRST I TRIED TO TREAT EVERYBOD? EQUAL. .BUT I MEAN Afl'ER
   A WHILE IT GOT TO THE POINT WHERE I ALWAYS SEEMED TO BE GETTING
   THE HASSLE, THE PETROL & NAIL BOMBS, THE BLAST BOMBS.
   WHATEVER THEY WERE GONNA THROW THEY WERE GONNA THROW AT ME
   AND IT GOT TO A POINT WHERE A FRIEND OF MINE CAME BACK (FROM
   LEAVE) WITH ABOUT 15 OF THESE BLACK WIDOW CATAPAULTS, WHICH
   ACTUALLY STRAP ON YOUR ARM. AND YOU WERE PASSING THEM OUT
   AMONG THE LADS AND WREN THEY WERE DRIVING AROUND.. .THE DIAMOND
   AREA OF LONDONDERItY. ...WE WOULD BE USING tHESE CATAPAULTS. . . -

## Q: Who Would You Fire Them At 2

A WELL IT WOUL]) BE ANYBODY WHO WAS ON THE WRONG SIDE OF TRE
TRACK, YOU KNOW.

## J Q: Anybody Who Was On The Street '

A: ANYTHING THAT MOVED I MEAN..J'VE WALKED DOWN A STREET WHERE
I HAD A RIFLE TN ONE HAND, I'VE HAD THE BATON1N THE OTHER HAND AND
AS I'VE WALKED DOWN THE STREET i SHOULD iMAGINE EVERY WiNDOW
WITHIN ABOUT 800 YARDS WAS BEING BROKEN.
                                              . .YOU GET THAT
FRUSTRATED WITH PEOPLE EFFINCi AND BLINDING AT YOU AND CHUCKING
AT YOU AND YOU'RE EXPECTED TO HOW BACK, HOLD BACK. IN
RETALIATION YOU TEND TO DO THESE THINGS WHAT YOU WOULDN'T
NORMALLY DO....
                             -

Q: (19) HOW COMMONPLACE WAS THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE SAYING AT THAT
TIME 7

## Dirty Tricks

A: VERY VERY COMMON. IF YOU REMEMBER YOU HAD RUBBER BULLETS AND
THEY CHANGED THEM INTO PLASTIC BULLE'ITS. WELL ONE F THE MAIN
REASONS WHY THEY CHANGED THEM. .15 THAT PEOPLE WERE TAKING THE
RUBBER BULLET OUT, BANGING A NAIL THROUGH IT AND THEN PUTI'ING IT
BACK IN.

## Wil4T Happened At Bloody Sunday?

(58) A: I ARRESTED ONE BLOKE, PASSE]) HIM ONTO ANOTHER BLOKE TO PUT
HIM IN THE BACK OF THE PIG AND AS I TURNED ROUND THE FIRiNG STARTED.
AND YOU KNOW, NOBODY'LL EVER TELL ME THAT I WAS NOT UNDER FLRE.
YOU KNOW - I'VE BEARD ALL SORTS OF STORIES, BUT NOBODY WILL TELL
ME THAT I WAS NOT UNDER FIR. .fl WAS flUTiNG THE WALL BESIDE ME.. iT
WAS THE HEAVIEST I'D HEARD IN NORTHERN rEELAND... .THAT DOESN'T
MEAN TO SAY IT WAS, YOU KNOW, 5,000 ROUNDS. YOU KNOW - A lo ROUND
BURST WOULD HAVE BFFN HEAVY. AND THAT WAS ENOUGH. THERE WAS A
 EAVY BURST AS FAR AS I WAS CONCERNED...

## Q: And Did You See The Gunman?

A: NOW WE'RE INTO AN AREA WHERE TM NOT TALKING.

## Q; What? Sorry?

A: NOW WE'RE (3h ri. ING INTO AN AREA WHERE I'M NOT TALKING.

## Q:! Don'T Understand Why?

     A: WHY ? BECAUSE I'VE GOT A LIFE TO LEAD. I DON'T WANT TO SPEND THE
     NEXT 20 YEARS LOOKING OVER MY SHOULDER....!' VE TAKEN YOU FURTHER
     THAN I'M WWNG TO GO ON WiTHOUT A DOUBT.
s
     (34) Q: CAN YOU TAKE ME THROUGH WHAT HAPPENED ON THAT DAY?

A: I COULD DO, BUT i'M NOT GOING TO. AND I'LL TELL YOU WHY. I MEAN
LONDONDERRY WAS A VERY IMPORTANT PART OP THE SITUATION LIN
NORTHERN IRELAND AN]) THERE'S PEOPLE THAT WONT LIKE ME VERY MUCH
FOR WHAT HAPPENED IN LONDONDERRY AND THEY RESENT THE FACT.. .ALL
tWILL SAY IS IWAS INVOLVED ON THAT DAY. IDON'T THINK WE DID
ANYTHING WRONG AT ALL. END OF THE DAY PEOPLE WERE MAKING THE
DECISIONS THEY SAW Ffl]. YOU KNOW, ITS NOT EASY TO DO. I DON'T THINK
WE DID ANYTHING WRONG...! DON'T REALLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT
THAT.. .TRAUMATIC TEME, IT WERE A TRAUMATIC TIME FORSOLDIERS.. .THEY
MADE DECISIONS AND LIVES WERE AT RISK AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THERE'S
THIS BIG TRIBUNAL FOR SOLDiERS. YOU KNOW, HAVING flC) JUSÏThY WHAT
YOU DID...! DO KNOW L DIDWT DO ANYTHING WRONG AND I DIDN'T SEE
 JqyflTJNG GO WRONG....

## What Happened At Bloody Sunda Y?

(35) Q: WERE YOU SHOT AT THAT DAY
A: OH YETI. WITHOUT A DOUBT. YETI
(49)1 SAW WHAT I THOUGHT WERE
BULLETS LANDING IN FRONT OF THE VEHICLE IN WHICH I WAS GETTING OUT
OF. AND FROM THAT MOMENT ON MY EYES WERE EVERYWHERE FOR THE
ONE THAT WAS GONNA BE SHOOTING AT ME. OR TO FIND THAT TARGET AND
IF NEED BE, EUMINATE IT... AND I WERE AFRAID. .1 WERE AFRAID THAT ME
OR MY MATES COULD BE INJURED OR KILLED. AND YEH, I WAS FRIGHTENED, I'M NOT ASHAMED TO ADMIT THAT. THAT' S THE SITUATION
CERTAINLY WE
WERE FIRED ON AND I THINK I'D KNOW.

## Why So Mary Were Jut.Tfj) Atbloodysupjday

BUT THAT' S ALMOST SAYING THATJ1'HE GUYS (SOLDIERS) SHOT WILDLY AT
ANYTHING 7
A: (71) BECAUSE THEY WERE TARGETS. THEY WERE TEERE. IT'S AS SIMPLE
AS THAT. THEY WERE IRISH, THEY WERE IN LONDONDERRY, THEY LIVED IN
A CATHOUC COMMUNITY, THEY WERE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE
PARACHUTE REGIMENT. THEY WERE TARGETS. THEY WERE SHOT 'rimy DB)
NOT NECESSARILY HAVE RIFLES THEY MAY NOT HAVE BEEN THROWiNG
Ph u(OL BOMBS - THAT'S NOT TRE POINT. THEY WERE IN THE AREA. THEY
WERE QN THE END OF A RIFLE. THEY WERE DEAD.

Q:

A: IF lT MOVED YES. IF IT MOVED YOU SHOT lt. .ALL HE SEES IS SOME
MOVEMENT, RIGHT? AND HE'S GONNA GET THE FIRST SHOT OFF, HE'S
GONNA HAVE A REACTION SHOT STRAIGHT AWAY AT THAT MOVEMENT COS
11E KNOWS THAT'S FROM APPROXIMATELY WHERE THE FIRING IS COMING
FROM, YOU KNOW. SO HE'S GONNA HAVE A REAC LiON SHOT ISN'T HE .. .HE'S
NOT GOING TO LET THAT SHOT COME AT HIM, HE'S GOING TO GET THE FIRST
ONE THERE TO MAKE SURE THE SHOT DOESN'T COME AT HIM AND THAT IS
EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS. IT'S PURELY REACTION.

## Q: Instinct?

A: LT IS, IT'S INSTINCT. dT'S LONG HOURS OF TRAINING AND YOU KNOW ITS
JUST BUILT IN ALL THE TIME. iTS THROWN AT YOU FROM THE FIRST WEEK
OF

  TRAINING RIGHT THE WAY THROUGH.. .THE WHOLE IDEA IS TRAINING FOR
THE ULTIMATE AND THE ULTIMATE IS WARFARE.. .EVERYTHING IS INSTINCT.
IT'S LOOKING AFTER THE MAN WHO'S NEXT TO YOU ALL THE TIME AND
THAT'S THE WAY THE REGIMENT
                                   IS... .211E REGIMENT STOOD FOR
EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING OUTSIDETHE REGIMENT JUST DJDN'TCOUNT AND
THAT'S THE WAY THEY WERE TAUGHT THEY WERE TAUGHT THAT FROM
DAY ONE. THEY WERE MOULDED INTO THAT.
                                                    -

THERE WAS CHEERING AS WE RACED OFF THROUGH THE BARRICADES. LADS
WERE SHOUTING "GET THE PUCKERS, GET THE ADRENALIN GOING SNATCH
SQUAD". ..WASTE GROUND BELOW FLATS. JUMP OUT - RUNNING AWAY,
THOUSANDS OF THEM SCREAMING, SHOUTING. ME WiTH OFFICER LOADS OF
FUCKERS CAME AROUND THE CORNER AT US. OFFICER P1111MG FIRST, RIGHT
BY HIM, CARTRIDGES WHISTLING PAST MY HEAD. HE HAD LOST IT, HADN'T
HE. RAN BACK TO PIGS TO GET OUR WEAPONS.

## Wily So Many Were Killed At Bloody Sunda Y

SHOOTING STARTED, NOT SEE ANYTHING, NO TARGETS, NOTHING... .WOULD
HAVE SHOT IF SEEN. SMOKE EVERYWHERE. LADS
                                            UTIN" GET HIM, OVER
THERE. DON'T KNOW. DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED.

YOUR ,IRAINED THAT AS SOON AS YOU HEAR A. SHOT, NO MATrER WHERE lT
COMES FROM YOUR TRAINING TAKES OVER. PUT THE PARAS IN THAT
SITUATION AND EXPECT THEM NOT TO HOLD THEIR FIRE.

WHEN WE Got THE WORD TO GO IN - LISTEN TO THE NOISE - RUBBER flICKS
GOING OFF (RUBBER BULLETS), CS GAS, WATER (CANON), PETROL BOMBS
EXPLODING. VERY TENSE SITUATION. RUMOURS OF RADIO REPORTS OF
GUNFIRE, COUPLE OF PEOPLE H]T. ADRENALIN WAS UP - ROARED IN GUNG-
HO, SCREAMING LETS GET 'EM..EVERYBODY SHOUTING GET IN AMONGST
THEM, SMOKE DRIFTING.. .PIGS WENT TOO FAR RIGHT INTO THE FLATS, CAN'T
RETREAT. FUCK - I THOUGHT WE'D GET DONE HERE.
                                               HPI) OUT RIGHT
UNDER THE LFATS.
                    SrrnNG FUCKING DUCKS.
                                             PEOPLE RUNNING
EVERYWHERE. CROWD POURING ROUND A CORNER - WE, ALL LOOKING UP
AT THE FLATS - BOMBERS, SNIPERS, ANYTHING....TI{ELADS STARTED FIRING,
LETTING LOOSE. PEOPLE WERE RUNNING, SCREAMING, OUR GUNS GOING OFF.
SHADOWS BECAME TARGETS. AT FIRST LT WAS POSSIBLY TO PUT SOME FIRE
INTO THE FLATS, SCARE ANYBODY WITH A GUN. THEN THERY STARTED
SHOOTING AT THE BARRICADES... .THE PLATOON CRACKED REALLY -
ATMOSPHERE WAS ELECTRIC - SOME OF THEM WERE SEEING TARGETS
EVERYWHERE.

## Covering Up At Widgery & Backing .E4Ch 0773Er Up

Q: SO ON TUB GROUND. AP SOMETHING WENT WRONG YOU'D BACK EACH
OTHER UP?

A: OH YES. RIGHT THE WAY DOWN THE LINE, YOU KNOW. YOU'RE BACKING
EACH OTHER.. .EVERYBODY STUCK UP FOR EVERYBODY - YOU COVERED UP
FOR EACH OTHER.

## Q: Even If That Meant Lying? .A: Yes. Oli Yes. If You Had To Go And Stand In Court And Do Lt On The Bible, You Would Do Ri' To Seni) A Paddy Down. Yes, Sure I'D Do If... .(48) You See, The Regiivient Has Always Been A Very Close-Knit Family You Know All Paras, They'Ve All Gone Through The Same Neck Of The Qwoods As You Have, They'Ve All Had The Same Brutal Treatment.. .30 They'Re All The Same.

Q: (5O)SO THERE'S A LOT OF BONDING? A: YES, THAT'S RiGHT.

## Qt So You'Ve All Got A Lot Of Respevct For Each Other Because You'Ve All Been Through The Tough Trining?

A: YES. THAT'S RIGHT. YES. THAT'S WHERE if COMES DOWN TO LT.

Q: IT'S LIKE BEil«) A FAMILY.?

A: YES AND IT IS....ASTHLE MOnO SAYS: "ALL TO ONE PURPOSE YOU KNOW."

0F COURSE WE GOT OUR STORIES TOGETHER - DIDN'T TALK ABOUT
ANYTHING ELSE. GOT TO GET IT SORTED BEFORE THE 511E GET TO YOU. ..IT
WAS A MA'ITER OF KEEPING OUR REPUTATION.. JESUS, WE GOT AWAY WITH
MURDER, CRACKED UP YOU KNOW. NOBODY WILL TALK ABOUT IT, NOT
EVEN TO OTHER SOLDIERS JR THE BArrAU0N. WE WERE TOLD BY THE
OFFICERS AND SENIOR NCO'S: JUST BUTtON YOUR UP ON THIS ONE. BLOODY
HELL MAN, SOME OF THOSE GUYS EVEN FIRED FROM THE HIP. BLOODY
COWBOY AflÏI1JDE. CRAPHATS (OTHER REGIMENTS) ONLY DO THAT. LOST
OUR DIGNITY OVER THAT. . . .WE WERE LUCKY WITH WIDGERY. SHOW JOB,
WASN'T LT. ARMY HAI) TO COVER UP.

## Covering Up At Wjdgery & Backing Each 0771Er Up

(132) A: A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WAS ON THE WIDGERY TRIBUNAL WEREN'T
THE GUYS THAT WERE DOiNG THE FIRING IN THE STREETS
Q: BUT WERE SAYING THAT THEY WERE 7 HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT 2

A: THERE WAS A LOT OF YOUNGSTERS ON THE STREETS. MOST OF THE ONES
ON THE WIDGERY TRIBUNAL WERE OLDER.
                                                        -
                                                             -

Q: YOU'RE SAYING THAT TIlE MEN WERE SWAPPED. THAT A YOUNG MAN
WHO FIRED DIDN'T GIVE EVIDENCE. SOMEBODY WHO WAS OLDER, MORE
EXPERIENCED, WAS TOLD TO SAY THAT HE'D FIRED WHEN THE OTHER CUY
HAD FIRED, RIGHT?

A: THAT'S RIGHT. COACHED.

Q; HE WAS COACHED?

A: EVERYBODY'S COACHED.

Q: TELL ME ABOUT THAT. IN WHAT WAY 2 HOW ARE THEY COACHED 2
A: WELL YOU GET TALKING TOGETHER DON'T YOU AND CLEAR EACH OTHER.

THAT'S WHAT BUDDY BUDDIES IS FOR.

Q: YOU MEAN EVERYBODY WILL BACK EVERYBODY PISE UP?

A: THE ARMY'S A FAMILY....

Q: IN WHAT WAY WERE.. .STORIES ALTERED FOR THE WIDGERY TRIBUNAL?

A:
Q: IN WHAT WAY?

A:

## Using Soldiers As Policetiiew

A: (104/5) YOU CAN'T PUT A SOLDIER AS A POLICEMAN. NO WAYCAN THEY DO
A POLICEMAN'S ROLE. TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. I MEAN A POLICEMAN IS
THERE TO KEEP THE PEACE - THAT'S THE VOEWS HE TAKES, YOU KNOW. TO
PROTECT LIFE, TO PROTECT PROPERTY, TO KEEP THE PEACE. WHAT'S A
SOLDIER'S 7 lT'S THE COMPLEtE OPPOSiTE, ISN'T IT. YOU KNOW, HE'S NOT
THERE TO PROTECT PROPERTY, HE'S NOT THERE TO SAVE LIFE. HE'S THERE
TO DESTROY PROPERTY, TAKE LIFE, SOD THE PEACE. YOU KNOW, BECAUSE
THAT'S WHAT HE'S TRAINiNG FOR, ISN'T IT? YOU'RE NOT TRAINING FOR
PEACE - HE'S TRAINING FOR WAR.. .TRE TWO JOBS, THEY'RE THE COMPLETE
OPPOSiTE YOU KNOW.. .ITS A BAD MOVE MAKING A SOLDIER DOPOLICEMEN'S
WORK.

(15) A: THE POUCE ARE DEDICATED TO LAW AND ORDER, RIGHT?. THAT IS
THEIR ROLE.. .THE ARMY IS NOT DEDICATED TO LAW AND
                                                          ORDER.
NORMALLY WHEN THE ARMY GOES INTO A RIOT SITUATION, THEIR JOB IS TO
GET ORDER AND LAW BACK ON lf}{E STREET THERE'S A
                                                         SUBTLE
DIFFERENCE.....THE POUCE W)IJ TRY TO DO THINGS 10(1% LAWFUL WAY,
OK, AND WILL PUT THEIR HANDS UPON THE MAN AND DRAG HIM AWAY AND
SAY YOU'RE UNDER ARREST.... 9.:'HE ARMY WilL LEAP ON HIM, TEEN DRAG
HTh! AWAY THEN SAY YOU'RE UNDER ARREST. OK. THEY GET ORDER -THEN
LAW. THE POUCE MAINTAIN LAW AND ORDER....

     Q: DO YOU THINK THAT WHEN SOLDIERS ARE PUT INTO CIVIL DISORDER
r
     SITUATIONS THAT THEY'RE GOSNG TO BE DRAWN INTO AREAS
                                                                OF
     CONTROVERSY BECAUSE OF THAT DIFFERENCE?

A: OF COURSE THEY ARE. BECAUSE IT IS THE LAST RESORT WHEN YOU START
TO BRING SOSLDIERS ONTO THE STREETS. YOU KNOW IT MEANS THAT THE
POUCE HAVE FAILED IN THEIR JOB.... (34) YOU KNOW THAT TO MY MIND,
THAT'S WHAT INTERNAL SECURiTY IS. GE! FING ORDER, GE! FING THINGS
SORTED OUT SO THAT PEOPLE CAN OBEY THE LAW.. .THEY CAN'T DO THAT
IN THE MIDDLE OF A RIOT SITUATION, YOU KNOW. THEY HAVE TO GET
ORDER BACK ON THE STREETS, ORDER IN THE AREA THEY ARE
CONTROWNG. .,THEY'RE NOT TRYING TO GET LAW, BECAUSE ITS NOT THEIR
JOB TO BRING THE LAW INTO IT. THEY'RE TRYING TO GET ORDER.

## Using Soldiers As Policemen

(4) A: WHEN I WENT OUT IN 69 IT WAS A CASE OF PLAY HEARTS AN]) M[NDS.
AND HOW DO YOU SUDDENLY SAY TO PARATROOPERS WHO'VE BEEN
LEARNING ALL THE SKILLS OF SOLDIERS, YOU GO OUT THERE AND PLAY
HEARTS AND MINDS 7 THAT'S NOT EASY FOR ANYBODY
                                                    (5) WHEN YOU JOIN
THE ARMY YOU THENIC THAT Y0U'ÑE GON&ABE A SOLDIER. WE WENT OUT
TO IRELAND TO DO A POUCIIG JOB - BASÏCALLY TO KEEP TWO FACTIONS
APART...SO ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU'RE TffltQWN TINTO A DIFFERENT
ROLE....ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU'RE FIGIrn.G YOUR OWN...WITHIN TITER
RESTAINTS OF THE POLITICS OF RUNNING nIE COUNTRY. TAKE THE POUCE
FORCE OUT AND PUT THE ARMY IN. HOW IX) YOU COPE WiTH THAT? WELL,
YOU CAN'T. 1F YOU JUST SAiD TO A SOLDIER - RIGHT, YOU'RE GOING IN, AND
YOU'RE GONNA BE A SOLDIER AND YOU'RE GONNA SHOOT EVERYBODY, YOU
KNOW, AS YOU WOULD NORMALLY IN WASR. ...THAT WONT BE TOO DW1ïCULT
FOR EM
         (6)BIJT IF YOU SAID TO EM RIGHT NOW YOU'RE GONNA ACT AS
POLICEMEN.. .AS THEY ASKED IN NORTHERN ffiflj1J KEEOP THE FACTIONS
APART, TRY AND KEEP PEOPLE HAPPY WHILE WE SAOLVE THE POLITICAL
ASPECTS OF ¡T THE SOLDIER WILL FiND THAT DIFFICULT TO DEAL
WITH... .YOU CAN'T JUST FIRE AS- YOU QWOULD IN WAR. YOU'VE GOTTA
THINK WHAT YOU'RE DOING. AND YOU ARE OF COURSE GOVERNED BY THE
LAW OF THE LAND. YOU KNOW IF YOU FIRE YOU'VE GOT TO EXPLAIN WHY
YOU DID IT AND YOU'VE GOT TO USE MINIMUM FORCE. BUT ALL THE TIME
PRIOR TO THAT A SOLDIER HAI) BEEN TAUGHT: YOU GET IN,M WIN THE
F1REFIGHT AND SORT IT OUT AFTERWARDS.... YOU'RE SUDDENLY IN A PLACE
WHICH IS . . . .ALWAYS CONSIDERED PART OF YOUR COUNTRY AND YOU'RE
THERE TRYING TO CONTROL YOUR OWN COUNTRYMEN. AND THAT'S
DIFFICULT TO COPE WITH. YOU KNOW, IF YOU COULD SAY; WELL, THEY
WERE ENEMY AND WE WERE AT- WAR WITH THEM, THEN YOU WOULDN'T
REALLY HAVE TO THINK ABOUT (IT)?

## The Bloody Sunday Inquiry Schedule Of Redacted Entries In Neil Davies'Diary 1989 1990 Key:

A: Refers to solclier identity
(I) Interviewed specifically about Bloody Sunday
Interviewed about Bloody Sunday generally and Aden
interviewed about Aden only
Spoken to about potential contacts

Don't recall if spoken to or what about
Did not speak to
Not to do with Bloody Sunday

*: Refers to soldiers who have waived duty of confidentiality
B
Refers to locality, which may enable soldier to be identified
C:
Refers to miscellaneous information

## Diary

Note: Some pages have more than one redaction. The schedule lists such redaction in order from top to bottom on the page.

1989
NOVEMBER
DECEMBER
i. A(3/4)
2. A(2)
i.
A(3/4)
2. A (3/4)

/'{i9531

B
1. B
2. B/A(l)
B/A(3)
B/A(1)
A(1/2)
A(1/2)
A(2)*
A(3)
A (l/2)* (same person as 3 above)
A(l/2)
A(6)
A (1/2)
A (1/2)

12, B/A(1)
B/A(1) B/A(3)
lB
2. B
3. A(1/2)
4. A(112)
Mia '532
5. A (1/2)
(same person as i above)
12th i. A(3/4)
A(l/2)
A(l/2)
A(3)
A(l/2)
B
B/A(1) B/A(1)
I. A(1/2)
18th B/A(1/2)
20th I. B
A(S)
A(1/2)
A(1/2) A(1/2)
21st i. A(1/2)
A(i/2)
A(S)
29th i A(1/2)
A(1/2)
A(1/2)
A (112)*
A(5)
1990
JANUARY
7th
1, A(1/2)
A(5)
A(1/2)
A(7)
A(l/2)
8th A(2)*
A(314)
A(3/4)
A(5)
"Forward Plannmer" (near end of diary)

1.
B/A(1/2)
B/A (1/2)
B/A(1/2)*
B/A(2)*
"Annua' Cash Summary 1989" (near end of diary)
i A(5)
2.

A(5)
3
A(5)
4
A(5)
5
A(5)
6
A(5)
7.

A(5)
8
A(S)
9
A(7)
"Exchange Pubs (near end of diary, next to Anminal Cash Summary 1989 page)
i A(3)
2. A(2)*
3
A(3)
4
A(5)
5. A(S)
6
A(S)
7
A(6)
8
A(6)
9.

A(S)
iO.A(5)
il A(5)
12 A(S)
13 A(3)
14 A(5)
15.A(6) 16.A(6)
A (2)
A(6)
A(6)
A (6)
A(5)
22.A(6)
23. A(6)
24 A(6)
Letter attached to diary
1.

A (2)*
1989 Year Planner (at end of diary, left hand page)
A(l/2)
A(1/2)
A(1I2)
A(2)*
A(2)
A(1/2)
A(5) A(3/4)
A(7)
A (3)
A (2) * A (2) *
13.A(i) *
"1989 Year Planner" (right hand page at end of diary)
i C/A(1)F
A(1)*
A(5)
"Frequently used Telephone Numbers" (near front of diary)
1.

B
2. A(3)
3.

A(3/4)
4. A(5)
5. A(3)
6. A(3)
7. A(1/2) *
8. A(2)*
9. A(1/2)
A (1/2)
Il. A (1/2)
12.A(7)
1990
JANUARY
8th B/A(l/2)
B/A(1)
B/A(5)
B/A(5)

9th

A(1/2)
A(1/2)

10th

B/A(1/2)
B/A (1/2) (same person as i above)
B/A(1/2)
B/A (1/2)
B
B

11th

B/A (1/2)

12th

i. A(2)*
A (1/2) *

15th

A(3/4)
A (3/4)
A(5)

16th

1. A(5)

FEBRUARY
7th

A(1/2)*
A(2)*
A(1/2)
A(S)
22nd
1. A(3)
27th
1.

A(314)

## March

ist A(3/4)
A (3/4)
12th
1. B/A(2)*
13th A(1)
A(2)*
A(2) A(1/2)
A(2)
A(3)
A(1/2)
A(3/4)
9
A(5)
14th A(2)
A(3)

## 19Th

1.

A(1/2)

2. A(1/2)
3. A(3)

## 20Th

A(1/2)
A(2)

3 A (1/2)
(same person as i above)
4.
A(3/4)
5. A(5)
6. A(3/4)
7. A (2) (same person as 2 above)
8. A (3/4) (same person as 4 above)
9. A (2) (same person as 2 and 7 above)
10 A (3/4)
(same person as 4 and 8 above)

## 21St

L A(2)
2. A(3/4)
3. A(5)

## 22Nd

1, A(2)
A(3/4) A(S)

## April

11th

A(2)
A(1/2)*

12th

1. B/A(1/2)
2
B/A(1/2)*
3
A(l/2)
4
C/A(l/2)*

17th

1. A(2)
2. A(1/2)
3.

A(2)*
4
A (1/2) (same person as 2 above)
5
A(2)*

18th

1
A(1/2)
2. A(2)
3
A (2) (refers to same person as 2 above
4. A(2)*

19th

1. A(2)*
2
A(112)
3
A (2) *
(refers to same person as i above
4. B/A(1)*
20th A(2)*
A(1)*
23rd i. A(2)
2. A(5)
A(1/2)
24th i.

A(2)
2. A(5)
25th
1.

A(1)
26th
1. B/A(1)*
27th
1. A(1)
28th
1. A(1)
MAY
3rd A (1/2)
A(2)
A(2)*
8th A (1/2)
2. A(2)*
10th i. A(1/2)
16th i. A(1/2)
30th
1. A(2)*
2. A(5)
3. A(2)*
4, A(1/2)
JUNE
Ist A(5)
A(2)*
3, A(7)
4. A(1/2)
4th
1. A(2)*
JULY
6th
1.

A(2)
7th B!A(2)
C
A(2)*
4, A(1)*
5, A(1/2)*
6. A(2)*
23rd i. A(7)
2. A(5/7)

## Outline Of Legal Principles On Behalf Of Mr Davies

S. I O of the Contempt of Court Act 1981 provides as follows:
"No person may requre a person to disclose nor is any person guilty ofcontempt of courtfor refusing to disclose the source of information contained in a publication for which he is responsible unlessit be established to the satisfaction of the court that disclosure is necessary in the interests ofjustice or national security orfor the prevention of disorder or crime.

## The Importance Of Protection Of Sources

2 .
The protection of sources ís of itself a matter of high public importance.
Protection ofjournalistic sources is one ofthe basic conditionsfor pressfreedom as is reflected in the laws and the professional codes ofconduct in a number ofcontractsng states and is affirmed in several international instruments on journalisticfreedoms Without such protection sources may be deterredfrom assisting the press in informing the public on matters of public interest As a result the vital public watchdog role of the press may be undermined and the ability of the press to provide accurate and reliable information may be adversely affected Having regard to the im partance and protection ofjournalistic sourcesfor pressfreedom in a democratic society and the potentially chilling effect an order of source disclosure has on the exercise of thatfreedom such a measure cannot be compatible with article 10 of the Convention unless it is justified by an overriding requirement in the public interest (Goodwin y United Kingdom (1996) 22 EHRR ¡23, at 143, approved by Lord Woolf CJ
recently in Ash worth Hospital Authority y MGN Ltd [2002] ¡ WLR 2033 (HL(E) @para 61
where he stated that "any disclosure of a journalist s sources does have a chilling effect on thefreedom of the press")
This principle, which Schiemann U described in Camelot Group Picy Centaur Communications Ltd [1998] 2 WLR 379 as the "most important consideration" of the "chilling effict", is so fundamental that nothing less than necessity will suffice to override it In addition, by virtue of section 12(4) of the HRA, the Tnbunal is now required to pay
"particular regard" to the importance of freedom of expression, a right which is plainly engaged in this case.

## The Requirement To Override The Absolute Ban

Before making any Order requiring the disclosure of journalistic sources, the Court must undertake a two-stage process. First, it must decide as a question of fact whether it has jurisdiction to order disclosure.

See, Sec of Statefor Defencev Guardian Newspapers [1984] Ch 156, where the effect of the statute was described in thefollowing words by Sir John Donaldson MR
l 64A-B
Section 10 of the 1981 Act within the scope of its application varied this direction or practice to the extent that unless exceptional circs were established to its satisfaction the court was bound to refuse to require any person to disclose the source of information contained in a publication lt is clear from the wording of the statute that the onus of showing necessity falls upon the party seeking disclosure.

Although it is a form of 'balancing exercise', the scales by no means atji even. Far from i There is a very weighty presumption in favour of refusal As Lord Bridge stated in X Ltd y Morgan-Gram pian (Publishers) Ltd [1991] AC 1, @44:
In this balancing exercise it is only if the judge is satisfied that disclosure in the interests ofjustice is of such preponderating importance as to override the statutory privilege against disd asure that the threshold of necessity will be reached."
See also the approach of the ECHR to arride 10 in balancing the public interest in freedom of expression and the public interest in the due administration of justice For example Sunday Times y UK [1979] 2 EHRR 245, 281
[the European Court] isfaced not with a choice between two conflicting principles but with a principle of freed am of expression that is subject to a number of exceptions which must be narrowly interpreed the court has to be satisfied that the interference was necessary having regard to the acts and circumstances prevailing in the specific case before it
(approved by Lord Woolf CJ recently in Ash worth Hospital Authority MGN Ltd @para 48B)
Parliament intended that disclosure should be ordered only if a "compelling case" for doingso was established (seeJohn y Express [2000] 1 WLR 1931, 1938, CA) As a matter of principle and European jurisnrudence, the necessity for any restriction on freedom of expression (which an order for chsclosure of sources necessarily entails) must be convincingly established (see Goodwin y United Kingdom @para 40).

## Necessity

6.
The nearest synonym to the term "necessary" is perhaps to be found in In Re an Inquiry
under the Company Securities (Insider Dealing) Act 1985 [1988] AC 660 where Lord
Griffiths defined it as meaning "really needed", as opposed to "very useful" or "expedient".
7.
However, the court has to be satisfied not only that disclosure is needed for the purpose of
the proceedings but also that the need is so great that it ought to overnde the absolute ban on
disclosing the identity of sources.
Lord Oliver summarised the test in X Ltd y Morgan-Gram pian @53: as follows:
the true question in my opinion is not is the information needed in order to serve the interests ofjustxce? but
"are the interests ofjustice in this case so pressing as to require the absolute ban on disclosure to be overridden?''

8.
As part of the exercise of determining whether disclosure is necessary, there are a number of
factors which are relevant and which, m this case, weigh against disclosure
the significant public interest in the information provided by the sources, Per Lord Bridge in X Ltd y Morgan Gram pian @44
The greater the legitimate public Interest in the information which the source has given to the publisher or intended publisher, the greater will be the importance of protecting the source."
the fact that the information was not obtained unlawfully Per Lord Bridge in X Ltd @44
If it appears to the Court that the information was obtained legitimately this willenhance the importance of protecting the source"
the fact that permitting the journalist to maintain the anonymity of the source would not pose a threat to someone's livelihood.

## Proportionality

9.
It is now fundamentally important, in line with the introduction of the Human Rights Act and
the Strasbourg Jurisprudence which this Tribunal is obliged to take into account (s.2 HRA),
that the Court must carefully consider the question of«proportìonality". It must be satisfied that there is a sufficient relationship between "the legitimate aim pursued by the disclosure order and the means deployed to achieve that aim (see for example, Goodwin y United Kingdom
@para46)
The content and purpose of any disclosure sought is vital to the assessment of necessity and proportionality (which is the same as considerations under article 10) As the ECHR stated in Goodwin y United Kingdom, and as was approved by Lord Woolf CJ in Ash worth Hospital Authority y MGN Ltd @61, limitations on the confidentiality ofjournalistic sources cailfor the most careful scrutiny of the court It must be satisfied that the restriction should be proportionate to a legitimate aun which is being pursued Furtherin ore, it is dear from the Strasbourg jurisprudence that any analysis of proportionality is always a question of fact which cannot be determined in the abstract but only on the concrete facts of each particular case This approach has been adopted now in domestic courts.

See, for example: Venables & Thompson y News Group Newspapers Ltd where Dame Butler Sloss engaged in a careful assessment of the requirements of necessity and proportionality by reference to the general legal framework and specific evidence in the case Also Douglas y Hello Ltd

## All Necessary Steps

The Tribunal must also be satisfied first that available steps have been taken to obtain the mformation by other means There is no question of necessity being established before all avenues have been explored and found fruitless
"Before the courts require journalists to break what a journalist regards as a most important professional obligation to protect a source the minimum requirement is that other avenues should be explored It cannot be assumed that it will not be possible either tofind the culprit or at least to narrow down the number of persons who could have been responsible When weighing the conflicting public interests involved it is to be remembered that there is no certainty that ordering a journalist to reveal her sources will be any more successful ¡fit is not successful damage will be caused to the public interest in protecting confidential sources without any compensating benefit to the competing public interest of protecting professional privilege (per Lord Woolf MR in John y Express para 27)

## Residual Discretion

13.
If the Tribunal is satisfied that the overriding necessity for an order for disclosure has been
established, then the second stage in the process is for it to decide as a matter of discretion
whether to exercise this junschction or not
As Lord Griffiths stated in In Re an Inquiry under the Company Securities (Insider Dealing) Act 1985 [1988] AC 660, 703G-H
section 10 is notframed in language that compels a judge to order a journalist to reveal ¡us sources The factors will again depend on the particular circumstances of the case.

i 4 .
There is one peculiar and sighificant feature of this case which distinguishes it from other
media organisations or witnesses who have appeared before the Tribunal Unlike any other
journalists , Mr Davies is a former member of the Parachute Regiment and therefore a
colleague of some of those who were serving at the time of Bloody Sunday (although he
not present himself) As explained in the witness statement wffich he voluntarily provicied to the Inquiry, it was for this reason that Fe was able to secure the assistance of a number of soldiers for the making of the Praxis programme (on the basis, though, of strict
confidentiality) However, by his involvement m the programme, Mr Davies also became the
subject of death threats after it had been broadcast from individuals presumably unhappy with
the direction of the programme In the circumstances, the prospect of him being required to
reveal the identities of those whose names he agreed not to disclose is a matter of some
concern to him, similar, it is submitted, to the pressing need of the soldiers to maintain their
anonymity, both then and now Any requirement to disdose his sources undoubtedly engages
Ins Article 2 rights, as well as the Article 10 rights which apply to all journalists

 David Sherborne
5 Raymond Buildings
        Gray's Inn
London WC1R 5BP