0337
 1                      UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                        FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
 2   
 3     ELOUISE PEPION COBELL,       :  Civil Action 96-1285
       et al.                       :
 4                   Plaintiffs     :
                                    :  Washington, D.C.
 5              v.                  :  Thursday, October 11, 2007
                                    :
 6     DIRK KEMPTHORNE, Secretary   :
       of the Interior, et al.      :
 7                                  :
                     Defendants     :  AFTERNOON SESSION
 8   
                     TRANSCRIPT OF EVIDENTIARY HEARING
 9                                 DAY 2
                    BEFORE THE HONORABLE JAMES ROBERTSON
10                       UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
11    APPEARANCES:
12   For the Plaintiffs:          DENNIS GINGOLD, ESQUIRE
                                  LAW OFFICES OF DENNIS GINGOLD
13                                607 14th Street, NW
                                  Ninth Floor
14                                Washington, DC 20005
                                  (202) 824-1448
15   
                                  ELLIOTT H. LEVITAS, ESQUIRE
16                                WILLIAM E. DORRIS, ESQUIRE
                                  KILPATRICK STOCKTON, L.L.P.
17                                1100 Peachtree Street
                                  Suite 2800
18                                Atlanta, Georgia  30309-4530
                                  (404) 815-6450
19   
                                  KEITH HARPER, ESQUIRE
20                                JUSTIN GUILDER, ESQUIRE
                                  KILPATRICK STOCKTON, L.L.P.
21                                607 14th Street, N.W.
                                  Suite 900
22                                Washington, D.C.  20005
                                  (202) 585-0053
23   
                                  DAVID C. SMITH, ESQUIRE
24                                KILPATRICK STOCKTON, L.L.P.
                                  1001 West Fourth Street
25                                Winston-Salem, North Carolina  27101
                                  (336) 607-7392
26   
27                          Bryan A. Wayne, RPR, CRR
                            Official Court Reporter
0338
 1   For the Defendants:          ROBERT E. KIRSCHMAN, JR., ESQUIRE
                                  JOHN WARSHAWSKY, ESQUIRE
 2                                MICHAEL QUINN, ESQUIRE
                                  J. CHRISTOPHER KOHN, ESQUIRE
 3                                JOHN KRESSE, ESQ.
                                  U.S. Department of Justice
 4                                1100 L Street, N.W.
                                  Washington, D.C.  20005
 5                                (202) 307-0010
 6                                JOHN STEMPLEWICZ, ESQUIRE
                                  Senior Trial Attorney
 7                                U.S. Department of Justice
                                  Commercial Litigation Branch
 8                                Civil Division
                                  Ben Franklin Station
 9                                P.O. Box 975
                                  Washington, D.C.  20044
10                                (202) 307-1104
11                                GLENN D. GILLETT, ESQUIRE
                                  U.S. Department of Justice
12                                Commercial Litigation Branch
                                  Civil Division
13                                P.O. Box 875
                                  Ben Franklin Station
14                                Washington, D.C.  20044
                                  (202)  514-7162
15   
16   Court Reporter:              Bryan A. Wayne, RPR, CRR
                                  Official Court Reporter
17                                U.S. Courthouse, Room 6714
                                  333 Constitution Avenue, NW
18                                Washington, D.C. 20001
                                  202-354-3186
19   
20   
21   
22   Proceedings reported by machine shorthand, transcript produced
     by computer-aided transcription.
23   
24                          Bryan A. Wayne, RPR, CRR
25                          Official Court Reporter
0339
 1                        P R O C E E D I N G S
 2             THE COURT:  All right.  Everybody here?  Let's just
 3   continue.  Thank you.
 4        (The witness resumed the stand.)
 5                    DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
 6   BY MR. KRESSE:
 7   Q.   Ms. Ramirez, just one kind of cleanup item.  Briefly I want
 8   to go back to what we called the audit trail, transactional
 9   documents.  The forms that we were looking at, the various
10   forms, you recall from those exhibits?
11   A.   Yes.
12   Q.   You've used that set of documents, you indicated, in a
13   presentation you made for this case at some point, correct?
14   A.   Correct.
15   Q.   And that was in connection with the paragraph 19 document
16   work?
17   A.   That's correct.
18   Q.   Have you used those documents in other presentations since
19   then?
20   A.   Yes.
21   Q.   And when was that?
22   A.   At the facility I'm at now, the American Indian Records
23   Repository, we have had several opportunities to have
24   presentations like this, or tours of different individuals that
25   have come through the facility, to see the facility itself, and
0340
 1   then in some instances what is historical trust accounting doing
 2   in this facility.  And that's where we would be using these
 3   documents to walk them through the process of a transaction.
 4             THE COURT:  You mean if I come down there, I've
 5   already seen it?
 6             THE WITNESS:  Well, there's a lot more to it than just
 7   these documents.
 8             MR. KRESSE:  You're right.  Your Honor, this would be
 9   a presentation that would be outside of the, actually touring
10   the facility.  That's why, in one sense, why we made it here,
11   because it does essentially require some level of testimony as
12   opposed to just seeing.
13   BY MR. KRESSE:
14   Q.   In any event, you've made this presentation several times.
15   A.   Correct.
16   Q.   The forms themselves, not necessarily the data on the
17   forms, but the forms themselves, do you know roughly what period
18   of time those forms were in use?
19   A.   Like when they were created?
20   Q.   Well, were those forms used, for instance, when you were
21   working in the IIM branch?  You want me to go through each one?
22   A.   Oh, no.  You mean were they using schedules of collection,
23   were they using deposit tickets, yes.  They were using them when
24   I was there, and I saw earlier ones as well.
25   Q.   Now, turning back to the mass cancellation documents which
0341
 1   we've -- exhibits which we've been looking at, we're at
 2   Defendants' Exhibit 209.  Looking at the upper right-hand
 3   corner, there's a, looks like a stamp there and some
 4   handwriting.  Can you tell me what that is?
 5   A.   That's my signature, K. Ramirez, 7/17 -- I think it's '92.
 6   Q.   What does the stamp indicate?
 7   A.   It's a file copy stamp that we use to stamp on our
 8   correspondence to show that different individuals saw the
 9   document prior to it going out.
10   Q.   Let's look at Defendants' Exhibit 210.  And this was the
11   letter that indicated that Treasury had sent the 12 minireel
12   tapes, correct?
13   A.   That is correct.
14   Q.   And we discussed the fact that that was cc'd to you and the
15   individual working for Soza, the contractor; right?
16   A.   That is correct.
17   Q.   Let's turn to Defendant's Exhibit 207.  What is this
18   document?
19   A.   This is a letter to Don Gray from the accounting firm, Soza
20   & Company, where they are laying out an action plan regarding
21   the mass cancellation project and what they view as the steps to
22   be taken.  So you see a background, and then you start, at the
23   bottom of the page, step one, et cetera.
24   Q.   At bottom of the page in the middle there's also your
25   handwriting again with attachment 7?
0342
 1   A.   That's correct.  That is my handwriting.
 2   Q.   Let's look at the main paragraph under the Background
 3   subheading.  The last sentence:  "Additionally, the data, which
 4   could date as far back as 1954, is limited to the following
 5   items: disbursing symbol, serial number, amount and date
 6   canceled."  Is that consistent with your recollection of the
 7   information that the Treasury tapes provided?
 8   A.   Yes, it is.
 9   Q.   And you had earlier testified about the date 1954.
10   A.   Mm-hmm.
11   Q.   Is that consistent also with your recollection of the era
12   covered by the checks?
13   A.   Yes.  That's what I recall.
14   Q.   Now, a little higher up in that same paragraph, five lines
15   down, the second full sentence references individual Indian and
16   tribal trust funds.  Could you explain what that reference
17   means?
18   A.   Tribes used to put their money into the individual
19   accounts, like the subsidiary system, because it had this check
20   writing capability where if you had check stock there at your
21   agency, you could stick a check in the typewriter and type it
22   up.  As opposed to keeping your money in a tribal trust account,
23   where you would have to submit paperwork to a central office,
24   like Albuquerque, who would then submit a form and some
25   documentation to a Treasury RDO, regional disbursing office, who
0343
 1   would then issue or cut Treasury checks on your behalf.
 2        So that was a time frame there that, if you didn't want to
 3   wait that period of time, it was easier to just have your money
 4   in an IIM account, an IIM type account, and then get your
 5   Treasury check typed right there and walk away with it.  So they
 6   used to like to put their money in the IIM accounts.  And it was
 7   tribal trust funds.
 8        Sometimes tribes, when they're cutting per capitas, to
 9   share some of their income or revenue with their enrolled
10   members, would have to issue a whole bunch of checks, and they
11   didn't have either the banking ability or the accounting ability
12   to issue all these checks to their enrolled members, and so they
13   asked the Bureau of Indian Affairs if they could issue these
14   Treasury checks for them.  And when that happened, then they
15   would have to put their tribal trust funds into an IIM account.
16   We used to call them tribal IIM accounts.  And then checks would
17   be issued from that account to all the different individuals
18   that they provided you the list of.
19   Q.   So as far as the accounting system -- and at the time of
20   this letter you were using IRMS, correct?
21   A.   That's correct.
22   Q.   So was there an IRMS subsystem for IIM accounts?
23   A.   Yes.  In the IRMS it's broken down into four -- I think
24   they called them platforms, and one of them was IIM, which was
25   the accounting aspect of it that had account numbers and names
0344
 1   and transactions and stuff like that.  Another one was people
 2   that held, enrolled members, names of tribes in their enrollment
 3   number, not necessarily their IIM account number, and then there
 4   were two other platforms, and I don't recall what those other
 5   two were.
 6   Q.   But with regard to the IIM platform, as you described it,
 7   so for a tribe, how would the tribe be identified compared to an
 8   individual?
 9   A.   There was -- the account numbers are made up of a 10-digit
10   number.  The first three digits are numbers, then the fourth
11   character is a letter, and the last six digits are numbers.  The
12   first three, those numbers usually denote the tribe you're
13   enrolled in.
14        So I am Laguna, and let's say the Laguna tribal code is
15   103, so my account number, if I had one, would be 103, N for
16   nonenrolled or A for original allottee, U for unallotted.  If
17   you have a tribal IIM account, there would be a T in that fourth
18   position, and that denotes that this is a tribal IIM account.
19   And then the last six digit s are either equal to your
20   enrollment number with the tribe, or some other sequential
21   number that the agency was using.
22   Q.   So in short, the term T accounts referred to tribal IIM?
23   A.   That is correct.
24   Q.   Turning to the second page of Defendants' Exhibit 207,
25   again this is the Soza letter to Mr. Gray, step 3 indicates or
0345
 1   states:  "Sort the data provided by Treasury by disbursing
 2   symbol.  This will involve separating data with disbursing
 3   symbols 4844 as well as all regional disbursing office symbols.
 4   The extracted data will be stratified by dollar amounts."  Was
 5   this work done by Soza?
 6   A.   Yes.  Soza I guess came up with the plan of how to go about
 7   going through the data that was obtained from Treasury.  And so
 8   this is one of the things that they recommended or thought
 9   should be done, because once the data was obtained, it was 12
10   minireels.  That was a whole lot of data.  So the Bureau of
11   Indian Affairs is the one that had the computer system that
12   could accommodate something this big.
13        So we provided all the data to our tech center there in
14   Albuquerque, who then loaded it all onto the system, and then
15   based upon whatever direction they got either from Soza &
16   Company or from myself or Don Gray, they would prepare whatever
17   reports we wanted or stratify the data or extrapolate whatever
18   it was that we wanted.  So they were recommending that this kind
19   of process occur.
20   Q.   And we'll be discussing some of those tables in a few
21   minutes.  The next step, 4, the middle of that paragraph, about
22   seven lines down, the sentence reads, "Also, a memo explaining
23   the mass cancellation project will be prepared and distributed
24   to the field."  Was that done?
25   A.   Yes.  From what I remember, we did do something like that.
0346
 1   Q.   And then turning to the third page of Defendants' Exhibit
 2   207, this document is -- the signator is Mary Sandoval.  Do you
 3   know who she was?
 4   A.   Yes.  She was the project manager for Soza & Company.
 5   Q.   Did she answer to you?
 6   A.   Yes.
 7   Q.   And then below that there's a signature block, indicates
 8   "Concur, Donald M. Gray."  And again, Mr. Gray was your boss,
 9   right.
10   A.   Yes.
11   Q.   Turning to Defendants' Exhibit 217, this -- do you
12   recognize this document?
13   A.   Yes, I do.
14   Q.   What is it?
15   A.   It is instructions or an informational type letter, I guess
16   you could call it, that went out to the field to explain mass
17   cancellation and the fact that we needed the field, area and
18   agency offices' help to identify specific check numbers to
19   individuals.
20   Q.   On here it indicates that, the first line, "Approximately
21   37,000 IIM Treasury checks which were mass canceled remain
22   unidentified as to the area/agency and IIM account from which
23   they were issued."  Do you see that?
24   A.   Yes.
25   Q.   Do you remember we talked before about the universe of
0347
 1   number of checks that were initially identified as mass
 2   canceled?
 3   A.   Yes.
 4   Q.   So what about the -- I guess there would have been around
 5   60,000 you said before?
 6   A.   Approximately.
 7   Q.   So there were roughly 23,000 that had already been
 8   identified at this point?  Is that what this means?
 9   A.   Yes.  If that's the way the math works out.
10   Q.   Well, in here it says as of March 31, 1993, it identifies
11   37,000 unidentified, correct?
12   A.   Correct.
13   Q.   And then later on, the fourth paragraph, the last line
14   states, it gives the date, June 30, 1993.  What was the purpose
15   of the June 30 date?
16   A.   So that we were asking in this letter or memorandum, we're
17   asking the field to take a look at the different check numbers
18   that are on these minireel tapes that are as of yet
19   unidentified, and look at their check stock inventory or
20   information that they have, to see which, if any, of these check
21   numbers are affiliated with their agency.  And we want
22   information back from them no later than June 30, 1993.
23   Q.   So we don't have a date on this first page, do we?
24   A.   Correct.
25   Q.   But we know it's sometime between March 31 and June 30.
0348
 1   A.   That's correct.
 2   Q.   And do you know who prepared this document?
 3   A.   It probably was me.
 4   Q.   And the last paragraph of the first page shows, it has your
 5   name on it, correct?
 6   A.   That's correct.
 7   Q.   And Charlene Toledo?
 8   A.   Yes.
 9   Q.   What was Charlene's role?
10   A.   She was an accountant within the branch of IIM.
11   Q.   And she was working with you on the project?
12   A.   That's correct.
13   Q.   Let's look at the next page of this exhibit, page 2.  Can
14   you tell me what this page represents?
15   A.   This page represents all the disbursing symbols that would
16   be affiliated with individual Indian checks.  So the third line
17   down, you see 4844, which is the symbol I spoke about earlier
18   where all these other symbols were consolidated into one at a
19   certain point in time.  But earlier on, each symbol was
20   affiliated with an agency superintendent, and then later on just
21   became one symbol, 4844, which is where the bulk of the money
22   and the checks are in this mass cancellation.
23   Q.   And this -- on 4844, the third line down, it says symbol
24   amount.  What does that represent?
25   A.   That means according to Treasury's data that they gave us
0349
 1   on these 12 minireels, if you added up the dollar amounts in
 2   symbol 4844, it came to $1.8 million.
 3   Q.   Then the next column is titled "number of zero amount
 4   checks," correct?
 5   A.   Correct.
 6   Q.   And on the third row next to 4844 you have the number
 7   22,407, correct?
 8   A.   That's correct.
 9   Q.   What does that mean?
10   A.   That means that out of all the checks that are listed on
11   this data from Treasury, 22,407 of them are zero dollar in the
12   amount column, for symbol 4844.
13   Q.   Why would a check have no amount?
14   A.   It's either because it was voided and we, the Bureau of
15   Indian Affairs, told them it was a voided check, or at this
16   point in time, when mass cancellation occurred, they heard
17   nothing from the Bureau of Indian Affairs regarding this
18   particular check and they took it upon themselves to consider it
19   void, because at this point now, any check that is out there in
20   the United States as of September 30, '89, is void, because it
21   doesn't say "void after one year" on the face of it.  So it's
22   not a limited payability check, therefore, it can't be issued
23   anymore.
24   Q.   So you're talking about the actual check stock is
25   outstanding, correct?
0350
 1   A.   That's correct.
 2   Q.   It doesn't mean that BIA actually issued 22,000 checks that
 3   had zero amount.
 4   A.   That's correct.
 5   Q.   So you have the one category as void, which means, what, it
 6   might have run through a printer wrong or something?
 7   A.   Correct.  It could have been chewed up in the printer when
 8   they were doing it, it could have been messed up in the
 9   typewriter when they were typing it.
10   Q.   So it's that kind of problem, and the rest is the ones
11   where Treasury had issued check stock to BIA?
12   A.   Yes.
13   Q.   And then checks were never used?
14   A.   At least Treasury was never informed that this particular
15   check number was used, so they input a zero dollar amount.
16   Q.   And the reason that the check stock couldn't be used is, I
17   think you said was because it was not a limited payability
18   check.
19   A.   That's correct.
20   Q.   And the legend on the front of the check needed to say
21   that, correct?
22   A.   Needs to say "void after one year."
23   Q.   Now, I noticed there's no zero amount checks for these
24   other disbursing symbols.
25   A.   I don't know.  I can't see.  It's too zoomed in there.
0351
 1   Q.   Okay.  Can you back out a little?
 2   A.   You're correct.  I don't see any others.
 3   Q.   Do you know why that would be?
 4   A.   No.
 5   Q.   Okay.  Now, at the bottom, the last line of this document
 6   or this table says final T, the letter T.
 7   A.   Mm-hmm, yes.
 8   Q.   Meaning total?
 9   A.   That's what I'm guessing it means.
10   Q.   Do you know who prepared this table?
11   A.   It would have probably been prepared by the direction of
12   Soza & Company to our computer tech center.
13   Q.   And the total dollar amount there is $1,914,528.45,
14   correct?
15   A.   Correct.
16   Q.   And the total checks --
17             THE COURT:  Let me just interrupt you for a minute.
18   This witness and for that matter the previous witness on
19   occasion would answer questions, "do you know," by saying "it
20   would probably have been."  I don't quite know how to credit
21   that, whether it's an established fact or not.
22        But I want you all to know that we're dealing with what is
23   probative and what is not.  This witness seems to know what
24   she's talking about and if she tells me that there's something
25   that probably happened or that she thinks it happened, unless
0352
 1   there's either an objection to it or some cross-examination on
 2   the point, I'm going to take it as established.
 3             MR. GINGOLD:  Your Honor, we're holding our objections
 4   so this should go quickly.  In the cross-examination we'll deal
 5   with it.
 6             THE COURT:  That's fine.
 7   BY MR. KRESSE:
 8   Q.   And the final column there, Ms. Ramirez, is the total
 9   number of checks, correct?
10   A.   That's correct.
11   Q.   And in your understanding, the 60,961, correct?
12   A.   That's correct.
13   Q.   Now, between the essentially 1.9 million and the
14   approximately 61,000 checks, what do you understand those two
15   numbers to represent?
16   A.   All the checks that were mass canceled by Treasury that are
17   affiliated with individual Indians or under the trust function.
18             THE COURT:  Ms. Ramirez, is the number, the total
19   number of checks, does that include the zero amount checks so
20   that if you want the checks that have an amount you have to
21   subtract 22,000 from it?
22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, you do.
23             THE COURT:  Okay.
24   BY MR. KRESSE:
25   Q.   Right.  So the net of nonzero amount checks would be
0353
 1   approximately 38,500 checks, I think the arithmetic comes out.
 2   A.   Okay.
 3   Q.   Does that sound right to you?
 4   A.   That sounds right.
 5   Q.   Now, Ms. Ramirez, the next document, the next exhibit,
 6   Defendants' Exhibit 221, is a three-page document, and the first
 7   page has a date in the left-hand corner of August 6, 1993.
 8   Correct?
 9   A.   That's correct.
10   Q.   Do you know what this short text refers to?
11   A.   It is from Harriet Brown to Jim Paris, where she's saying
12   that there is this write-up that is going to go to the OMB,
13   Office of Management and Budget, and if you want to revise the
14   numbers in this write-up, go ahead and do so and give it back.
15   Q.   And actually the first sentence says "a letter due to the
16   Hill."  Do you understand what that refers to?
17   A.   Yes.  We the Bureau of Indian Affairs were supposed to
18   provide a report to the Hill.
19   Q.   And then the fourth line down states that it has cleared
20   OMB.  OMB is the Office of Management and Budget, correct?
21   A.   That's correct.
22   Q.   Who is Harriet Brown?
23   A.   Harriet Brown worked in Washington, D.C.  I'm not sure of
24   her exact title, but I recall that Jim Paris reported to her.
25   Q.   The next page of this Exhibit 221, second page, do you
0354
 1   recognize that document?  And it continues on to the third page.
 2   A.   Yes.
 3   Q.   What is this?
 4   A.   This looks like our report that was provided to the Hill.
 5   Q.   Were you involved in preparing this report?
 6   A.   I provided a couple of decision papers or recommendations
 7   for decision papers, with statistics or information that gave a
 8   status on where we were at the time for this mass cancellation
 9   project, and they eventually used some of that information in
10   this.
11   Q.   Directing your attention to the second paragraph of page 2,
12   which starts "OTFM has determined that the Department of
13   Treasury dollar level of canceled checks to be identified as
14   specific accounts was $1,914,528.45."  That's consistent with
15   the number we discussed just a few moments ago, correct?
16   A.   That's correct.
17   Q.   Further in the same paragraph, it states -- and OTFM is the
18   Office of Trust Funds Management?
19   A.   That is correct.
20   Q.   Were you employed at that time by OTFM?
21   A.   What year was this?
22   Q.   1993.
23   A.   Yes.
24   Q.   The second sentence and the third sentence addresses a
25   number of a little over $616,000.  Can you explain what happened
0355
 1   with the $616,000?
 2   A.   Yes.  We went through a couple of steps to identify this
 3   check information to specific account holders and eventually
 4   their accounts.  The first pass was to take the data that was
 5   provided from Treasury and bounce it against the database that
 6   had all the account information, the transactions, et cetera,
 7   and if we got a match on that information, then -- and when I
 8   say match, I mean the check number matched, the dollar amount
 9   matched, and it was a legitimate -- not a legitimate -- it was
10   an open IIM account.
11        Then at that point we set them aside and we did some
12   postings back to these IIM accounts.  We did it in a couple of
13   instances, first in April of '93 and then in August of '93.  In
14   addition to that, we also, if we didn't get a hit on the check
15   number and the dollar amount when we bounced it up against the
16   database, then we had information that told us that this check,
17   this particular check came from this one agency or this regional
18   office, and so we then identified to those regions or agencies
19   that these checks were yours, with their documentation, could
20   they identify the account that this check came out of.  And so
21   there were a couple of steps that were used to get to this point
22   of $616,000.
23   Q.   So the third sentence states that of that $616,000 amount,
24   the accounts either had the money reimbursed, or it turned out
25   that the checks had been voided, right?
0356
 1   A.   That is correct.
 2   Q.   And we already discussed what it meant to have voided a
 3   check.
 4   A.   Correct.
 5   Q.   But this list doesn't provide a breakdown between those two
 6   categories, right?
 7   A.   No, not at this point.
 8   Q.   And then the fourth paragraph down indicates in the first
 9   sentence that there were remaining checks which had not been
10   traced, correct?
11   A.   That's correct.
12   Q.   Turning to Defendants' Exhibit 220, and this -- can you
13   identify this document, Ms. Ramirez?
14   A.   Yes.
15   Q.   What is it?
16   A.   It is my report as of December 2 of '93 showing the status
17   of where we are for this mass cancellation project.
18   Q.   And it indicates it's prepared by you, correct?
19   A.   That is correct.
20   Q.   And the date was December 2, 1993.
21   A.   Yes.
22   Q.   The first paragraph, the last sentence states that "this
23   brings to date a total of 6351 checks totaling more than
24   $278,000 recredited to IIM accounts."  Do you see that?
25   A.   Yes, I do.
0357
 1   Q.   Now, is this part of the $616,000 that we were just talking
 2   about?
 3   A.   Yes, it is.
 4   Q.   So if you had 278,000 credited, then the rest of that
 5   $616,000 amount would be attributable to what?
 6   A.   Probably attributed to voids.
 7   Q.   All right.  So we have a little over $300,000 of voids if
 8   that's the arithmetic, correct?
 9   A.   That's correct.
10   Q.   So if we start out with $1.9 million and we have voids of
11   over $300,000, now we're down to about 1.6 million, correct?
12   A.   That's correct.
13   Q.   And we found here, based on this document, we found
14   another, little under 300,000, correct?
15   A.   Correct.
16   Q.   So we're a little closer to sort of an unfound amount of
17   $1.3 million.
18   A.   That is correct.
19   Q.   Ms. Ramirez, if I could direct your attention to
20   Defendants' Exhibit 224.  This is a one-page document.  Are you
21   familiar with this table?
22   A.   Yes.  I've seen it before.
23   Q.   And it's got a date under the heading of as of April 16,
24   1993, correct?
25   A.   Correct.
0358
 1   Q.   And you earlier talked about tables that were generated.
 2   Do you know who generated this table?
 3   A.   It would have been off of that same database that all the
 4   minireels were loaded onto, probably at the direction of Soza &
 5   Company.
 6   Q.   And this first -- I'm sorry, you have, the first column
 7   here is a category of essentially strata of dollar amounts for
 8   these checks; correct?
 9   A.   That's correct.
10   Q.   The first line is zero dollar amount checks, correct?
11   A.   Yes.
12   Q.   And it's a little over 19,000.
13   A.   Yes.
14   Q.   And down at the bottom -- I'm sorry.  The purpose of this
15   table is what?
16   A.   It was to show us, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, how the
17   check information laid out according to what was mass canceled
18   or at this point unidentified.  We didn't know an account
19   number.  I don't think we even knew an area or agency that may
20   have issued this particular check.
21        So we wanted to see for this category of checks how does
22   the information lay out?  Is it big checks, medium checks, zero
23   dollar checks?  So we had this strata put in place and then the
24   numbers run against it.
25   Q.   And the largest category here or the largest number at
0359
 1   least is the zero dollar amounts, right?
 2   A.   That is correct.
 3   Q.   And at the bottom you have the number 37,000, looks like 8?
 4   A.   003.
 5   Q.   Does that refer back to the 37,000 -- I'm sorry.  The
 6   Defendants' Exhibit 221, the second page, fourth paragraph.  You
 7   see that?  It references 37,003?
 8   A.   Yes.
 9   Q.   Is that the same?
10   A.   Same number.
11   Q.   All right.  Same number.  And this table shows there is a
12   relatively small number of checks over the amount -- or $500 or
13   above, correct?
14   A.   Correct.
15   Q.   Which I think if you add it up, it's less than 150 checks.
16   A.   500 and above.  You said less than 150?
17   Q.   Right.
18   A.   That's correct.
19   Q.   Why would you bother to try to identify these zero dollar
20   amount checks?  Why spend the effort?  If you have a zero dollar
21   amount, how could that help if you found out where those checks
22   were or came from?
23   A.   Because that would tell you that you wouldn't have to seek
24   an IIM account to recredit.  This was not a valid check.
25   Q.   But would it help you to find other checks that were valid?
0360
 1   A.   Yes.  As a matter of fact, that is a good point.  If we
 2   knew that check No. 5 was issued from this agency and check No.
 3   10 was issued from the same agency, but we didn't know about
 4   check No. 8, then more than likely check No. 8 was also a check
 5   that that agency issued as well.  And so we at least narrowed it
 6   down to a specific agency or regional office in doing research
 7   for the unidentified checks.
 8   Q.   Ms. Ramirez, turn your attention to Defendants' Exhibit
 9   225.  And this is an eight-page document.  What is the -- and
10   this is a series of tables, correct?
11   A.   That's correct.
12   Q.   And it doesn't appear to have a date on it, does it?
13   A.   No.  I don't see one.
14   Q.   All right.  The title is "Mass cancellation project,
15   analysis of Treasury listing," and then "disbursing symbol 4844
16   versus all others."  What does that mean, that title?
17   A.   That means that out of the 12 minireels that we received
18   from Department of the Treasury, they provided us all the
19   disbursing symbols for all agencies across the United States.
20   So not only did we get any disbursing symbols that were
21   affiliated with individual Indian checks, but everyone else as
22   well, like IRS or Veterans Affairs or any Treasury regional
23   disbursing office, RDO.  We got everything.
24   Q.   So looking at the last page of this document, the eighth
25   page, at the bottom, there's what's called a condensed table.
0361
 1   A.   Correct.
 2   Q.   What does that condensed table show?
 3   A.   It shows that out of the disbursing symbol 4844, out of the
 4   entire database that was provided to us by Treasury, that was 10
 5   million checks, to the amount of $5.1 billion.  And out of that
 6   the 4844 symbol was 57,000 checks and $1.8 million.
 7   Q.   Turning your attention to Defendants' Exhibit 227, can you
 8   tell us what the purpose of this table was?  And this is a
 9   one-page exhibit.
10   A.   It shows that the title, analysis of checks identified to
11   date -- is that what that says?
12   Q.   It's spelled "indentified."
13   A.   Identified to date.  These are the checks that we had
14   narrowed down to at least a regional office, and it could even
15   be an IIM account.  And the reason why I'm saying it could even
16   be an IIM account is because of that handwritten annotation that
17   you see saying "auto and manual."  The only way I would have
18   known -- and that's my handwriting -- that these were auto or
19   manual checks is because we had bounced the data up against the
20   IRMS database, and there are codes in that database, if you're
21   issuing an automated check from someone's account, meaning that
22   they're an adult, they're legally competent, there are no holds
23   on their account and their balance reaches a certain amount, $25
24   or higher, then a check will automatically be issued that
25   evening.  Those are auto checks.
0362
 1        If for some reason their account is on hold, let's say it's
 2   a minor, and their guardian or ward comes in and makes a request
 3   to the superintendent for some funds on their behalf, then
 4   they're making a request for a manual check, and then a
 5   different code is used in the system when you cut those checks.
 6        So the only way I would know that it's an auto or a manual
 7   check is because I bounced it against the IRMS database, or I
 8   had it done, and this is the information that came back.  And so
 9   you see that out of the 20,000 checks that were identified,
10   6,000 plus were affiliated with the Aberdeen region, 2,300, et
11   cetera, Anadarko region, more than 2,800 --
12   Q.   And so on.  We've just got a breakdown by region of those
13   identified?
14   A.   Correct.
15   Q.   And the date on the second table on that page is June 30 of
16   '92?
17   A.   Yes.
18   Q.   So is this the data -- what had happened as of that date?
19   A.   Because the table on top isn't dated, that was probably a
20   snapshot in time.  I don't know what time.  But whenever we
21   would get statistics together for the 12 regional offices and
22   their IIM accounts, it wasn't one central database.  It was 12
23   databases.  So we would have to take 12 reports and key them in
24   to an Excel spreadsheet or something that gives you this kind of
25   breakdown of the IIM accounts.
0363
 1   Q.   So this second table is actually the number of accounts in
 2   those regions, right?
 3   A.   As of June 30, '92, correct.
 4   Q.   So there's a total of 288,593 IIM accounts.
 5   A.   Yes.
 6   Q.   Then the last table we're going to look at, Ms. Ramirez, is
 7   Defendants' Exhibit 226, several tables, and it's a two-page
 8   document.  The first page, can you tell us what the purpose of
 9   that table is?
10   A.   This one shows the unidentified checks for just disbursing
11   symbol 4844, and that's broken down by strata, zero dollar
12   versus anything -- a penny to 1.99, et cetera, all the way up to
13   $10,000 and greater.
14        It shows you the total number of checks, 57,000.  Of the
15   57,000 how many at this point in time were yet unidentified,
16   37,000.  What is the percentage of the total to that one
17   particular strata.  So for example, if you look at the third
18   line down, $2 to 999, that shows that there were 9,220 checks in
19   that particular strata.  4,108 of them are unidentified at this
20   point in time, or almost 45 percent are not yet identified to an
21   account.
22   Q.   In looking at the second page, the middle of this document,
23   just directing your attention to the condensed table at the
24   bottom, again we've got this zero dollar amount reference,
25   correct?
0364
 1   A.   That's correct.
 2   Q.   And again, just referring to disbursing symbol 4844, right?
 3   A.   Yes.
 4   Q.   Now, just to finish up on the mass cancellation,
 5   Ms. Ramirez, turning to Defendant's Exhibit 216, this is a
 6   two-page exhibit.  Do you recognize this document?
 7   A.   Yes.  I've seen it.
 8   Q.   What are these two documents referred to in this exhibit?
 9   A.   Let's see.  Is this the first page?  In this first page,
10   we're look at something from the Osage Agency, where they're
11   writing to Albuquerque central office, and they're saying that
12   they received a check from the Anadarko area office, where
13   someone came in and they hadn't cashed their check.  And it was
14   a mass canceled check, because you see the date of the check is
15   March of 1986.  And so Osage Agency is asking if this is one of
16   the checks that was mass canceled.
17   Q.   Now, early in your testimony about the mass cancellation
18   project, you talked about how Treasury essentially was not going
19   to refund the money to the BIA, correct?
20   A.   Right.  Correct.
21   Q.   For the mass canceled checks.  So in this case where would
22   the money come from if in fact you wanted to give this person
23   the thousand dollars they're asking for here, if in fact it
24   proved to be a check they should have received or been able to
25   cash?
0365
 1   A.   The Bureau of Indian Affairs later wrote and obtained or
 2   had legislation passed or -- I don't know about legislation
 3   passed.  They obtained funds, appropriated funds, to remedy any
 4   checks like this that would have been presented for
 5   reimbursement.  So there was an account set up for this such
 6   case.
 7   Q.   Do you know how much money was set aside by Congress for
 8   the mass cancellation?
 9   A.   500,000?  The original amount might have been larger, but I
10   know at a certain point in time it was at least 500,000 that was
11   still available.
12   Q.   All right.  Ms. Ramirez, let's turn to your current
13   responsibility, which is the American Indian Records Repository.
14   And we have a series of photographs, which you're familiar with,
15   correct?
16   A.   That's correct.
17   Q.   Ms. Ramirez, there were photographs taken of the AIRR on
18   several occasions, correct?
19   A.   Yes.
20   Q.   And what was the purpose of having those photographs taken?
21   A.   Initially the first time we had photos taken of the AIRR
22   was for a progress report that our office, Historical Trust
23   Accounting, was preparing, and then later on it was to be
24   submitted as exhibits for this trial.
25   Q.   And so, do you recall when the first set of photographs was
0366
 1   taken?
 2   A.   No, I do not.
 3   Q.   Do you remember what year it was?
 4   A.   I don't know if it was 2006 or 2005.
 5   Q.   But in any event, it was for the progress report?
 6   A.   Correct.
 7   Q.   Were you involved in the process of getting those
 8   photographs taken?
 9   A.   Yes.
10   Q.   What was your role there?
11   A.   I have purchasing authority on my government credit card.
12   In addition to that, I have an administrative assistant that
13   works for me, so I had her check with a couple of photographers
14   in the area as far as doing photographs for us, getting quotes
15   for them.
16   Q.   All right.  And I'm sorry to cut you off, but the
17   individual that took the photographs, was it the same
18   photographer for both of these occasions that you reference?
19   A.   Yes.
20   Q.   And were you around when the photographer was taking these
21   photos?
22   A.   Yes.
23   Q.   Now, before we get into the specific photos, what are your
24   responsibilities as the on-site manager at the AIRR?
25   A.   I manage the contract staff that the Office of Historical
0367
 1   Trust Accounting has working there at the AIRR.  There are two
 2   Interior offices there at the AIRR.  One is the Office of Trust
 3   Records, and they're responsible for the trust records for
 4   Indian affairs, and they're the ones who are managing the AIRR.
 5        But my office, Historical Trust Accounting, needs these
 6   records to do this historical accounting.  So we have sublet
 7   space from them to be there in that facility, so that we can
 8   search these records to do the historical accounting.
 9        So we have two contract firms that are there.  One is an
10   accounting firm and one is an imaging and coding firm.  About
11   130, maybe 135 people all together that are there.  Half of
12   them -- approximately half of them do document search, will
13   actually look through the boxes for particular documents, and
14   the other half do the imaging and coding of whatever it is we
15   find.
16   Q.   And the accounting contractor is what company?
17   A.   Clifton Gunderson.
18   Q.   And were they previously under a different name?
19   A.   Yes.  They used to be Chavarria, Dunne & Lamey.
20   Q.   And then the other company that does the imaging and
21   coding?
22   A.   Ecompex, Incorporated.
23   Q.   Can you spell Ecompex?
24   A.   E-C-O-M-P-E-X.
25   Q.   You indicated that the Office of Trust Records is on site
0368
 1   there.  Is the National Archives and Records Administration also
 2   on site?
 3   A.   Yes.  The space -- the entire space that is being leased by
 4   the government is under a National Archives contract or lease,
 5   and then a portion of that is where Department of the Interior
 6   is, and then the Interior portion is divided between Office of
 7   Trust Records and my office, Office of Historical Trust
 8   Accounting.
 9   Q.   And this facility is sometimes referred to as being in a
10   cave.  Is it actually in a cave?
11   A.   It is in a cave.
12   Q.   It's a man-made cave?
13   A.   Yes.  It was a limestone cave that they were mining in the
14   '60s or '70s.
15   Q.   Now, the systems that are used at the AIRR, there are
16   certain information systems, computer systems that are used for
17   the document work and the historical accounting work, correct?
18   A.   Yes.
19   Q.   And one of those systems is the box index search system,
20   correct?
21   A.   That's correct.
22   Q.   Also referred to as the BISS?
23   A.   The BISS.
24   Q.   And also you have the account reconciliation tool, correct?
25   A.   Also referred to as the ART, A-R-T.
0369
 1   Q.   And are there other systems that are used for the purposes
 2   of the --
 3             THE COURT:  What kind of soup do they give you in the
 4   cafeteria at lunch?
 5             THE WITNESS:  Alphabet.
 6        (Laughter)
 7   BY MR. KRESSE:
 8   Q.   And since the Court has expressed an interest in a tour of
 9   the AIRR, Ms. Ramirez --
10             THE COURT:  I think my enthusiasm is waning rapidly.
11        (Laughter)
12             MR. KRESSE:  That wasn't my intended goal, Your Honor.
13   BY MR. KRESSE:
14   Q.   Are you involved in setting up tours?
15   A.   Yes.
16   Q.   And what do you do?
17   A.   Either the tour can be made as a request to the OTR trust
18   side or to our side.  It depends.  The OTR side is under Office
19   of the Special Trustee, so they have a lot of personnel that
20   work at agencies and regional offices.  Sometimes they have
21   meetings in the Kansas City area, and they'd like for them to
22   see this facility, because when you are doing research on a
23   particular account or transaction and you need a specific
24   document, you make this request to somewhere in Kansas, and
25   people refer to this cave or AIRR, and they have a hard time
0370
 1   identifying or understanding that if I want a journal voucher
 2   from 1956, what is the big deal?  Why does it take so long?  Why
 3   is it so hard?
 4        Well, it speaks a thousand words when you actually go and
 5   see how big the facility is, the volume of boxes of records that
 6   are there, the steps you have to go through in identifying the
 7   box that has that particular document, and then extracting it
 8   and either photocopying it or imaging and coding it.
 9        So it helps at least day-to-day operations, and I know it
10   is something we have to do for the historical accounting, but it
11   provides understanding when people actually see that it really
12   is a cave, you can stand upright, we have electricity and
13   plumbing facilities and everything.  It's big, like 90 acres
14   underground, because big trucks like tractor trailer rigs drive
15   under there, and just a portion of it is what is leased by the
16   government.
17        There are private companies down there that have their
18   businesses as well, because it's a good storage facility for
19   them.  It's climate controlled, there aren't rodents down there.
20   And when you go down there and you're driving into the cave,
21   that's kind of unsettling because you're driving into this cave,
22   and then you go up a street and you see a long road ahead of you
23   with lights way down there, and you can't believe it goes that
24   far, and then you get way to the back of the cave, which is
25   where the NARA/AIRR space is at, you see the front entrance to
0371
 1   the AIRR, and you're impressed because, wow, it really is an
 2   office.
 3        And then you go in and there are people working in there
 4   and you take the tour and you see the shelving or the rooms that
 5   the National Archives has, with these rooms they call bays that
 6   are the size of a football field, each room, and they're up to
 7   room 12 or 13 now, from what I understand, with the shelving
 8   that is two stories tall, all the way across this room.
 9        So that's a lot of stuff.  And the Bureau of Indian Affairs
10   or Indian Records is just one of those rooms.  We are not their
11   biggest client.  From what I understand, the IRS is their
12   biggest client, or so says the NARA individual who normally
13   gives the NARA side of the tour.  So then you see through this
14   process that there is a whole lot of stuff and there's all these
15   people and all this work being done, and I think it's rather
16   impressive.
17   Q.   Just to give a quick breakdown of the different areas.
18   You've already described the bays that are -- that's NARA's
19   area, right?
20   A.   That's correct.
21   Q.   Where the actual boxes are kept, permanently kept?
22   A.   That is their facility, their property.
23   Q.   And in the cave you also talked about how OTR has office
24   space?
25   A.   That's correct.
0372
 1   Q.   And OHTA has office space?
 2   A.   Yes, we do.
 3   Q.   And then you have your 130 or so contractor employees?
 4   A.   That is right.
 5   Q.   And they occupy quite a large area, which we'll see?
 6   A.   They occupy half of a bay.
 7   Q.   But there's also another part of this facility that -- it's
 8   not part of the cave itself, but it's off-site, and that's what
 9   we refer to as the annex, correct?
10   A.   That is correct.
11   Q.   What happens basically at the annex?
12   A.   Basically at the annex, that's where the boxes arrive from
13   across the United States, and that is managed or run by the
14   Office of Trust Records.  And so when the boxes get there to
15   that facility, they unload them or offload them from these
16   trucks.  They have a staff there, a contract staff.  It looks to
17   me like 60, 80, maybe 90 people all together that are working at
18   that facility.  And their job is to index or inventory what is
19   in these boxes, to a certain level, and then make sure the boxes
20   are all labeled across the front and they're grouped in certain
21   groups, like personnel records are in this group and realty
22   records are in that group and financial documents are in this
23   group, et cetera.
24        And then accession numbers are assigned to these groups of
25   boxes, and then eventually the boxes are then transported to the
0373
 1   cave and custody is handed over now from Department of the
 2   Interior to the National Archives.  And the information that's
 3   obtained at this annex facility goes into a database called the
 4   BISS, B-I-S-S, and that is what we all use, whoever wants to do
 5   research with these boxes, to identify what box you want and
 6   where you're going to find that journal voucher or that deposit
 7   ticket, et cetera.
 8   Q.   All right.  Well, let's go to the slides, then.  I'll just
 9   ask you as they come up, I'll identify it by exhibit number and
10   then you can just give us a very general description of what
11   we've got.
12        The first slide is Defendants' Exhibit DX 163.  What does
13   that show?
14   A.   This is what we were referring to as the annex.  This is
15   the facility that is above ground where the boxes go to be
16   indexed.
17   Q.   And there's a picture of a tractor trailer truck there,
18   correct?
19   A.   Yes.
20   Q.   And is that backed up to the bay for the offloading of
21   documents?
22   A.   That's correct.
23   Q.   Then Defendants' Exhibit 164, what does that show?
24   A.   This is the front entrance to that facility.  You have to
25   go through a magnetometer, you are -- the employees that work
0374
 1   there wear badges.  If you're a visitor, you sign in and get a
 2   visitor's badge.
 3   Q.   Then the next photograph, what does that show?  And I'm
 4   sorry, were you present when these photographs were taken?
 5   A.   Yes, I was.
 6   Q.   And these photographs of the annex, those were all taken at
 7   what time, do you recall?
 8   A.   It wasn't that long ago.
 9   Q.   This summer?
10   A.   Yes.  It was the summer.
11   Q.   So what does this photograph show?
12   A.   This shows that this particular truck that was delivering
13   boxes that day has a seal that goes on the back of the truck.
14   Once these trucks pick up records at a certain location, they're
15   not to stop anywhere else, pick up anything else, because once
16   the boxes are loaded, then they're sealed with this type of
17   metal or aluminum or whatever looking thing she's cutting off.
18   Q.   All right.  And who is the individual, do you recall?
19   A.   That's a Labat employee, which is a contractor for Office
20   of Trust Records.
21   Q.   And looking at Defendant's Exhibit 166, what's that?
22   A.   That is the truck now open and those are the boxes inside
23   the truck.
24   Q.   Defendants' Exhibit 167.  Can you explain what's going on
25   there?
0375
 1   A.   Now they're offloading the boxes that are in this truck
 2   into the facility.
 3   Q.   And are those boxes shrink-wrapped on that pallet?
 4   A.   Yes, they are.
 5   Q.   And next photo.
 6   A.   The truck is to the right, and he has come around like in a
 7   u-turn and he's going into the facility through these plastic
 8   shred things there and taking it into the area where the workers
 9   are indexing the boxes.
10   Q.   All right.  And the next slide?
11             THE DEPUTY CLERK:  I'm going to need a number.
12             MR. KRESSE:  I'm sorry.  Defendants' Exhibit 168.
13             THE DEPUTY CLERK:  168?
14             MR. KRESSE:  Yes.
15             THE COURT:  Okay.  Thanks.
16             MR. KRESSE:  Sorry.
17   BY MR. KRESSE:
18   Q.   Defendants' Exhibit 169, the next photo.
19   A.   That shows an area where they are stacking all the pallets
20   of the boxes that are coming off of this truck.
21   Q.   Now, the work area, you described a group of workers who
22   are doing the BISS index work, right?
23   A.   Yes.
24   Q.   And relative to this photograph, where are they located?
25   A.   They're to the right behind the photographer.
0376
 1   Q.   And this is a big open area?
 2   A.   Big open area.
 3   Q.   Let's go to Defendants' Exhibit 170.  This is again, it
 4   looks pretty redundant but what's the difference between what
 5   we've got in 169 and 170?
 6   A.   There are a lot more pallets stacked in this one particular
 7   area, and it's taken from a different angle.
 8   Q.   So we've still got the shrink wrap, nothing else has been
 9   done, right?
10   A.   That's correct.
11   Q.   Now, Defendants' Exhibit 171, what does this photograph
12   show?
13   A.   This is showing that they have in this same open area to
14   one side of the room there, where they, once -- where they
15   unwrap the boxes.  They break the shrink wrap, they take them
16   off the pallets, they line them up on these shelves, and from
17   what I understand, they line them up there so they can number
18   them or give them these accession numbers.
19   Q.   And who sets up the accession numbers?
20   A.   The National Archives provides them to the Office of Trust
21   Records.
22   Q.   All right.  Next slide is Defendants' Exhibit 172.  And
23   what is this individual doing?
24   A.   He's probably -- no.  I know he's writing the 075 number on
25   this box.
0377
 1   Q.   075 being what?
 2   A.   075 is a NARA accession number that is provided to the
 3   Office of Trust Records so that they, the National Archives, can
 4   identify this group of boxes.
 5   Q.   And going to Defendants' Exhibit 173, what does that show?
 6   A.   This shows the workers that are actually doing the indexing
 7   into the BISS.
 8   Q.   And this contractor --
 9   A.   This is Labat.  They're a contractor of OTR, Office of
10   Trust Records.
11   Q.   So in this picture to the far right, is that shelving over
12   there on the far right side sort of in the middle?
13   A.   Yes.
14   Q.   And is that the shelving that you were referring to
15   previously after the shrink wrap had been removed?
16   A.   That's correct.  That's the shelving we just saw.
17   Q.   Now, moving to Defendants' Exhibit 174, what does this
18   photograph show?
19   A.   This is a close-up of an individual keying into the system,
20   into the BISS.
21   Q.   All right.  Can we zoom in on the display?
22        Now, what system is this that's shown on the CRT or the --
23   A.   This is the BISS, the Box Index Search System.
24   Q.   So the information that's -- for instance, the top, "tried
25   code," do you see where that is in the upper left?  "Tried
0378
 1   code"?
 2   A.   Yes.
 3   Q.   "100 Portland area office."  That's information input by
 4   the individual in this picture?
 5   A.   That's correct.
 6   Q.   So all this information here this person has typed in, is
 7   that your understanding?
 8   A.   I understand that some areas of this screen we're looking
 9   at are prepopulated and others they type in.
10   Q.   All right.  Let's go to Defendants' Exhibit 175.
11   Ms. Ramirez, what does this photo show?
12   A.   It shows that once the boxes have indexed into BISS, now
13   they get repalletized, reshrink-wrapped for shipment now from
14   this facility to the cave to go to National Archives.
15   Q.   The next photograph, Defendants' Exhibit 176.  What does
16   that represent?
17   A.   That is the truck that Labat uses to take the boxes away
18   from this facility to the cave.
19   Q.   And let's go to Defendants' Exhibit 177.
20   A.   That's the entrance to the cave.  One of them.
21   Q.   And as you referenced before, this is a facility that
22   houses other operations besides just even NARA and Interior,
23   correct?
24   A.   That is correct.
25   Q.   So is Meritex -- that's the name of the place, the Meritex
0379
 1   Lenexa Executive Park?
 2   A.   They own the facility or the cave and they lease to other
 3   companies.
 4   Q.   Okay.  Let's go to Defendants' Exhibit 178.  What does that
 5   show?
 6   A.   That shows the road that -- there are several roads in this
 7   cave.  This is one of them, when you take a turn, go into the
 8   cave, you see this long road in front of you.
 9   Q.   And eventually, it leads to what's shown at Defendants'
10   Exhibit 179, correct?
11   A.   That's correct.
12   Q.   And that is what?
13   A.   The American Indian Records Repository.  That's the front
14   of it.
15   Q.   The entrance to the office space?
16   A.   The front entrance to the office space.  And this office
17   space is the space that the Office of Trust Records occupies.
18   Q.   Then let's go to Defendants' Exhibit 180.  What does that
19   show?
20   A.   This is one of the bays that NARA has, and the shelving you
21   see is what I was talking about earlier, with all the boxes that
22   are on the shelves.
23   Q.   Are these Indian records?
24   A.   I can't tell, but -- I can't tell.
25   Q.   If you were able to look at the box --
0380
 1   A.   The front of it.
 2   Q.   Right.  The front of the box.
 3   A.   Yes.
 4   Q.   See if we can zoom in.
 5   A.   Yes, it looks like these are the Indian records, because
 6   the box to the most right says "J.V.," and that stands for
 7   journal voucher.
 8   Q.   And FY 93?
 9   A.   Correct.
10   Q.   Meaning what?
11   A.   Fiscal year 1993.
12   Q.   And the next, Defendants' Exhibit 181, just another view of
13   the bay, correct?
14   A.   That's correct.
15   Q.   And are these Indian records, to your knowledge?
16   A.   They look like it, because the boxes to the right look like
17   they say 075, yes.  075 is the NARA accession number that is
18   provided to Interior, and anything 075 is Indian records.
19   Q.   Then going to Defendants' Exhibit 182.
20   A.   That is a screen for the Box Index Search System.
21   Q.   And who uses the Box Index Search System?
22   A.   Our contractors for searching the boxes, as well as the
23   Office of Trust Records, because they too are searching boxes.
24   Q.   Now, the individuals who are searching the boxes, are they
25   the individuals who are also reconciling transactions --
0381
 1   A.   Yes.
 2   Q.   -- for the historical accounting?
 3   A.   Yes.  Our office has at least four accounting firms that
 4   are doing reconciliation, and one of them is Clifton Gunderson.
 5   Clifton Gunderson also happens to be our document search
 6   contractor as well.
 7   Q.   But are the individuals who are searching the boxes the
 8   same individuals who are actually reconciling transactions?
 9   A.   No.
10   Q.   So you've segregated those functions, correct?
11   A.   That's correct.
12   Q.   So one of the other accounting contractors could submit a
13   request for documents, correct?
14   A.   Correct.
15   Q.   And then the Clifton Gunderson searchers, right,
16   researchers?
17   A.   Yes, they search for that document, yes.
18   Q.   So let's go to Defendant's Exhibit 183.  What does that
19   show?
20   A.   That shows the manager's table for the Clifton Gunderson
21   side where -- they are the ones who see the requests from the
22   different accounting firms for particular documents.  They query
23   the BISS, the Box Index Search System, and then they decide
24   which boxes are going to be ordered so that they can be searched
25   by their staff there.
0382
 1   Q.   Then Defendants' Exhibit 184.  What does that show?
 2   A.   This is a different area but still on the Clifton Gunderson
 3   side of the house where, we call this the BLOC, B-L-O-C, Box
 4   Logistics Operations Center.  When boxes are ordered by Clifton
 5   Gunderson -- and nowadays we're doing about 300 to 350 boxes a
 6   day.  When they come in from the National Archives, custody is
 7   transferred from NARA to us, Office of Historical Trust
 8   Accounting, they line these streamliners up.  The thing with all
 9   the boxes piled on it with the wheels there, that's the
10   streamliner.  So they will line these streamliners up in front
11   of this area and key in to a database that they have that they
12   have actually received box 1 and 9 and 6 and 12 into their
13   database.
14   Q.   What happens once the boxes have been keyed in that are on
15   the streamliner?
16   A.   Once they have been keyed in, then they put them on shelves
17   in different areas.  You see behind him there are some shelves
18   there.  Also behind the photographer, what you don't see are
19   more shelves as well.  They have delineated these shelves into
20   sections so that a particular section represents a particular
21   project.
22        For example, we are working on reconciling judgment
23   accounts, per capita accounts, special deposit accounts, the
24   land-based type accounts.  And so each box is assigned to a
25   particular project, and therefore it goes in a certain spot on
0383
 1   the shelves, and the shelves are also separated by where in the
 2   process it should be.  For example, when a box first comes out
 3   from the National Archives, it goes on to a shelving section
 4   that would be annotated search.
 5        Once it's searched, it would be moved to a different
 6   section of the shelving for quality control, or QC.  Once it's
 7   QC'd then it would be moved to a different section of the
 8   shelves, or even put on a streamliner to be returned to the
 9   National Archives.
10   Q.   So the QC is for the purpose of doing what?
11   A.   To ensure that we didn't miss a document that we were
12   searching for.
13   Q.   And then Defendants' Exhibit 185, just a close-up of what
14   we were looking at before; is that correct?
15   A.   That's correct.
16   Q.   All right.  Then Defendants' Exhibit 186.
17   A.   This shows an actual search team, still on the Clifton
18   Gunderson side.  They're going through boxes where they are
19   looking for documents.
20   Q.   Now, if they find documents, what do they do after that?
21   A.   If they find a document in a box, and it's just one
22   document, they'll photocopy the document.  And you see
23   photocopiers to the right there, and even a little bit on the
24   left you see a photocopier.  Because the documents that we're
25   finding in these boxes, we're not the only ones that want to
0384
 1   search these boxes for different things.  The other side, Office
 2   of Trust Records, also needs these boxes to do document search.
 3   And sometimes plaintiffs come in and want to do document search
 4   or --
 5   Q.   You mean plaintiffs in other lawsuits, not this lawsuit?
 6   A.   Correct.  In other lawsuits.  Would like to search these
 7   boxes as well.  So we don't want to tie the box up for the time
 8   that it takes to image and code that one document, so we'll pull
 9   it out, photocopy it, make the best photocopy that we can make,
10   and then pass the photocopy on to the imaging/coding side, and
11   return the box.
12             THE COURT:  Ms. Ramirez, can you give me an example of
13   what they're searching for?  I mean, what would a search be?
14             THE WITNESS:  If our office has assigned a particular
15   accounting firm to reconcile certain transactions or certain
16   accounts, when that accounting firm looks at this one
17   transaction, like a posting into someone's account for $50, and
18   it's plus, so it's a collection, the accounting firm knows from
19   the experience and training that we've given them, that you need
20   to find either the bill for collection or the deposit ticket or
21   all of that, and then even further, earlier in the process you
22   need to find the lease, because you want to ensure that it was
23   suppose -- it is $50 that you were supposed to collect and not
24   $80.
25        So that accounting firm, just in this one assignment of
0385
 1   this transaction, knows that they need the bill, the schedule of
 2   collections, the deposit ticket, and the lease.  So they will
 3   make that request to this facility for all those documents.  And
 4   then will query through the BISS, find that it's these 10 or 20
 5   boxes, pull those out, search them, find them, either photocopy
 6   them -- if it's a voluminous type thing, like invalidating the
 7   data that we're working with, sometimes we need a whole report,
 8   and those reports can get very big, like half of a box or
 9   something, then we will just pass the whole box on to the
10   imaging/coding side of the house, and they'll image and code
11   that document.
12             THE COURT:  Thank you.
13             THE WITNESS:  You're welcome.
14   BY MR. KRESSE:
15   Q.   And you indicated you might be searching, for instance, 20
16   boxes for a particular document.  Why can't you just find or
17   know that a box contains the specific document or documents
18   you're looking for?
19   A.   Because when the inventory or indexing is occurring of
20   these boxes up at that facility called the annex, when you open
21   a box, they've been instructed to index or inventory to the
22   document type level.  So if you open a box that has three types
23   of documents -- bills for collection, schedules of collection,
24   and deposit tickets -- they're going to capture what's written
25   on the front of the box, they're going to capture what's written
0386
 1   on every single file folder label, and inside each file folder
 2   they're going to capture the types of documents they see.
 3        So if there are nine file folders and three have bills for
 4   collection, three have schedules of collection, and three have
 5   deposit tickets, you will see all nine file folder titles, and
 6   then you'll see the words "schedules of collection," "bills for
 7   collection," "deposit tickets."  And then you'll see a beginning
 8   and an ending date.  Like the earliest date for this particular
 9   file is March of '93, and the ending date is May of '93.
10        You don't know that it's the bill for collection No. 2220
11   dated March 13 of '93.  So if there are a couple of files or a
12   couple of boxes that have some deposit tickets or schedules of
13   these types of documents in them, then you have to request four
14   or five or whatever boxes and look through them until you find
15   the deposit ticket you were looking for.
16   Q.   And these boxes also indicate where the documents came
17   from, right?
18   A.   That's correct.  In this BISS or Box Index Search System,
19   they capture where the box came from.  So in earlier testimony I
20   said that, you asked how many copies of these documents are
21   there?  Well, there were a lot of copies made of these documents
22   for different offices, so if I wanted to find a bill for
23   collection or a deposit ticket, I could look either in the
24   agency box, like Pawnee Agency, or I could look in the Anadarko
25   area box for that same deposit ticket, because both of them
0387
 1   would have had a copy of it.
 2   Q.   Looking at Defendants' Exhibit 187, what kind of work is
 3   going on there?
 4   A.   This is now the imaging side of the room, with Ecompex, and
 5   these are preppers.  They are prepping or preparing the
 6   documents for imaging.  In the scenario where we pass a box on
 7   to this contractor for imaging, we have to take out staples and
 8   paper clips and take off rubber bands, et cetera, to pass the
 9   documents through imaging.  We also have to reassemble these
10   documents exactly the way they were when we took them apart.
11   When we reassemble we use stainless steel paper clips and
12   stainless steel staples.  We do not put rubber bands back on.
13   Those damage documents.  So instead we put them in expandable
14   file folders.
15        But we have to know that we took the paper clip off here or
16   we took the staple out here, so all these different colored
17   pieces of paper mean something to the imager:  start the staple,
18   stop the staple, start the paper clip, stop the paper clip,
19   et cetera.
20   Q.   And these individuals pictured here work for Ecompex,
21   correct?
22   A.   That is correct.
23   Q.   And the next photograph, Defendant's Exhibit 188, these are
24   also Ecompex people pictured in the foreground?
25   A.   That is correct.
0388
 1   Q.   What are these individuals doing?
 2   A.   These guys are imaging.  And I know they're imaging because
 3   there are scanners in front of them and they actually have the
 4   boxes in front of them.
 5   Q.   And each individual, are they able to work on as many boxes
 6   as they want, or how --
 7   A.   You can only work on one box at a time.
 8   Q.   And Defendant's Exhibit 189, what's going on in that
 9   picture?
10   A.   These are coders, and I know they're coders because, first
11   of all, you don't see the scanners in front of them, nor do you
12   see boxes in front of them.  You just have computer screens and
13   keyboards.  So once the imaging is done and all the imaging is
14   quality control checked, because we can't have it crooked, we
15   can't have it cut off, we can't have it blurred, because we have
16   an accounting firm in Los Angeles that needs to know that that
17   deposit ticket is $8.29 and not $3.29.
18        So then images, after they're quality control checked, get
19   passed to the coding side of the house, where these coders do a
20   double blind code.  That means that they assign the same image
21   to two different individuals.  So two different people will get
22   the same deposit ticket or the same journal voucher, and they
23   have to capture certain information off of these documents that
24   was predetermined by our office and the accounting firms on what
25   are we going to code for a deposit ticket, what are we going to
0389
 1   code for a journal voucher, what are we going to code for a
 2   lease.
 3        So they will capture the information they're supposed to
 4   off the document in front of them, and then the two coders'
 5   information is bumped up against each other.  If one captured
 6   $8.29 and the other one coded $3.29, then somebody quality
 7   control checks it to see was it really an 8 or was it a 3.
 8   Q.   And then the last photograph of the facility itself and the
 9   work going on there is Defendants' Exhibit 190.  What does that
10   photograph show?
11   A.   That's a screen off of the imaging coding database that
12   shows the document on the left side.  And on the right side you
13   see the coding information.
14   Q.   And this in this case is a journal voucher, correct?
15   A.   That's correct.
16   Q.   Now, we have just several more photographs of actual
17   documents that are in the collection at the AIRR, which you've
18   seen before, correct?
19   A.   Yes.
20   Q.   And do you remember when these photographs were taken?
21   This would be Defendants' Exhibit 191 through Defendants'
22   Exhibit 205.
23   A.   I believe these ones were taken earlier when we, OHTA, was
24   preparing its progress report.
25   Q.   Now, how were these specific documents selected, do you
0390
 1   recall?
 2   A.   Washington, D.C. advised Lena Mills, who is in charge of
 3   the Office of Trust Records there at the facility, that they
 4   wanted some older type documents, like ledger books or ledger
 5   cards.  So based upon some querying that either she did or she
 6   had her staff do, they were -- they pulled these ledger books
 7   out and put them in a particular room, and we had the
 8   photographer photograph them.
 9   Q.   And the first photograph is up on the screen here,
10   Defendants' Exhibit 191.
11   A.   Yes.
12   Q.   And again, it speaks for itself, but this is the inside
13   cover, correct, of a ledger book?
14   A.   That's correct.
15   Q.   Do you know -- well, never mind.  Let's go to the next
16   document, Defendant's Exhibit 192.  Ms. Ramirez, can you see the
17   date on that document?
18   A.   Yes.
19   Q.   The transaction listed at the top left corner?
20   A.   Yes, it looks like 1879.
21   Q.   And it indicates, the document indicates Arizona Agency,
22   correct?
23   A.   Yes.  Well, it says agency, Arizona, so I think it's, the
24   name of the agency is something else, but it's in Arizona.  If
25   you pan to the left, I think it actually -- and go higher.  It's
0391
 1   Colorado River Agency in Arizona.
 2   Q.   And you've reviewed these photographs before, correct?
 3   A.   Yes, I have.
 4   Q.   And what kind of transactions are described here?
 5   A.   Receipts and disbursements that have gone through the
 6   Colorado River Agency.
 7   Q.   And looking at Defendants' Exhibit 193, that appears to be
 8   the same ledger book, correct?
 9   A.   Yes.
10   Q.   And Defendant's Exhibit 194?
11   A.   Same ledger book.
12   Q.   And those transactions, upper right corner, appear to be
13   1880, correct?
14   A.   Yes.
15   Q.   And one final one, also that ledger book it appears,
16   correct?  195, I'm sorry.  Defendants' Exhibit 195.
17   A.   Yes, that's correct.
18   Q.   Then the next, Defendants' Exhibit 196.  What does that
19   appear to be?
20   A.   This is also a ledger book.  It looks like it's from 1924
21   and 1925.
22   Q.   And then the next photograph, Defendants' Exhibit 197.  You
23   see that?
24   A.   Yes.
25   Q.   And that shows transactions from what year?
0392
 1   A.   1924.
 2   Q.   Then we have Defendants' Exhibit 198.  Do you recall what
 3   the purpose of this photograph was when it was taken?
 4   A.   Yes.  It was to show you the size of some of these ledgers.
 5   It's not recommended, but they would fill a ledger this full,
 6   and that box you see on the right is one cubic foot.  So this
 7   ledger is about that big.
 8   Q.   And then the following, Defendants' Exhibit 199, shows
 9   transactions from 1932, correct?
10   A.   That's correct.
11   Q.   And it indicates checks paid, correct?
12   A.   Yes, it does.
13   Q.   And then you have Defendants' Exhibit 200.
14   A.   Same book.
15   Q.   Do you know what transactions are described there?
16   A.   It also looks like checks.
17   Q.   And Defendant's Exhibit 167.  I'm sorry.  Defendants'
18   Exhibit 201.
19   A.   That's also a ledger book.
20   Q.   What information is shown on that page on the screen?
21   A.   It looks like it's a report that would have been prepared
22   by the Osage Agency, to be provided to some central office
23   somewhere, because we were required on a monthly basis when I
24   was in the branch of IIM to report collections, disbursements to
25   the Treasury Department.
0393
 1   Q.   And the date of this document?
 2   A.   1958.
 3   Q.   And the same, Defendant's Exhibit 202, also 1958, correct?
 4   A.   Yes.
 5   Q.   I'm sorry, and then finally -- I'm sorry for that.  We have
 6   Defendants' Exhibit 203.  Can you describe what that form shows?
 7   A.   Let's see.  This is also the Osage Agency in Pawhuska,
 8   Oklahoma.  It looks like they are reporting receipts and
 9   disbursements for particular appropriations.
10   Q.   When you say appropriations, different accounts?
11   A.   Correct.  Different accounts.
12   Q.   Then looking at Defendants' Exhibit 204.
13   A.   It's the front of a box.  It shows to me that in the upper
14   left corner it's from the Anadarko regional office.  I know that
15   because of the B00 that you see.  I also know that there are 51
16   boxes in this particular accession or group of boxes, because
17   the upper right-hand corner says that this is box 8 of 51.
18        And then it also shows that the National Archives assigned
19   it accession number 075-04-0650.  That's the number on the
20   bottom left.  I know it's Indian records because it's 075.  I
21   know the National Archives received this accession of boxes in
22   the fiscal year of 2004.  Those are the middle digits in that
23   number.  And then I also know that it has not only the regional
24   office records in it, but also a couple of their agencies are in
25   here.  And I know that because the numbers in the middle of the
0394
 1   box, to the left of that hand-hold hole there, say B00/B08/B05.
 2   B00 is the regional office, B08 is one of its agencies, B05 is
 3   another one of its agencies.
 4        I also know that whoever labeled this box said that there
 5   was bills for collection in it, deposit tickets in it, schedules
 6   of canceled checks, schedules of collection, et cetera, on the
 7   front of it, and it looks like it's all for fiscal year 1999,
 8   which is written on the right-hand side of the box.
 9   Q.   Do you know what the number in red at the bottom right is
10   for?
11   A.   Yes.  Initially when the boxes were collected in
12   Albuquerque, New Mexico, before coming to Lenexa, Kansas, there
13   was an inventory database.  They referred to it as secure
14   inventory 97.  In that database, it was also an inventory of
15   what's in the boxes.  You had to capture a unique number for
16   each box.  And so it didn't have, I guess, the ability to use
17   the accession number and the labeled box number, like you
18   couldn't use that B00 number on the left and 8 of 51 for it to
19   be its unique number.  So instead, we had to go to some third
20   field and give it a unique number, which is that red number on
21   the bottom.
22   Q.   Were you involved in designing the secure 97 system?
23   A.   Yes.
24   Q.   With a contractor?
25   A.   Yes.
0395
 1   Q.   And who was that?  Which contractor?
 2   A.   The accounting firm Chavarria, Dunne & Lamey.
 3   Q.   Which is now Clifton Gunderson?
 4   A.   That's correct.
 5   Q.   And the last exhibit is Defendants' Exhibit 205.  What does
 6   that show?
 7   A.   That's an actual bill for collection.  It's one of the
 8   plies of the seven-ply form itself.
 9             MR. KRESSE:  Your Honor, that's all I have on direct
10   and I'd like to move these exhibits into evidence.
11             MR. GINGOLD:  Objection, Your Honor.
12             THE COURT:  I don't know what the objection is, but
13   we'll -- what is the objection, Mr. Gingold?
14             MR. GINGOLD:  Your Honor, many of the exhibits have
15   not been authenticated, as you pointed out.  In responses to
16   questions were should, should have, could have, maybe, probably.
17   She did not say -- she did not have any basis for determining
18   whether or not there was any accuracy in the records at all.
19             THE COURT:  All right.  Fair enough.  Well, we'll let
20   you cross-examine if you want to on those, but we'll do that
21   after a mid-afternoon break of about 10 minutes.
22        (Recess from 3:07 p.m. to 3:19 p.m.)
23             THE COURT:  Are we ready?  Mr. Gingold, you may
24   proceed.
25             MR. GINGOLD:  Good afternoon, Your Honor.
0396
 1             THE COURT:  Good afternoon.
 2                          CROSS-EXAMINATION
 3   BY MR. GINGOLD:
 4   Q.   Ms. Ramirez, my name is Gingold, and I represent the
 5   plaintiffs in this litigation.  I'd like to ask you some general
 6   questions before we go into specifics.  Our goal, in accordance
 7   with our understanding of this proceeding, is to try to move it
 8   as rapidly as possible, and to the extent I'll use as few
 9   exhibits as necessary.
10        Let's talk about the easiest issue first, and that's the
11   Lenexa facility.  I think the government has provided
12   photographs of numerous aspects of the facility, from the trucks
13   bringing documents in, to the encoding of documents, to the
14   storage, and the various contractors that are working in the
15   facility.  Is that your understanding as well?
16   A.   Yes.
17   Q.   Is there anything that's material with respect to the
18   Lenexa facility that you haven't testified to in response to
19   Mr. Kresse's questions?
20             MR. KRESSE:  Objection, Your Honor.
21             THE COURT:  I don't even know what the question means.
22   I guess I'll sustain the objection, ask you to rephrase it
23   because of the word material.  You're asking her essentially a
24   legal question.
25   BY MR. GINGOLD:
0397
 1   Q.   You were involved in at least requesting that the
 2   photographs be taken, correct?
 3   A.   Yes.
 4   Q.   And you were present with all the photographs?
 5   A.   Yes.
 6   Q.   Why were the particular photographs taken and used as
 7   exhibits?
 8   A.   Initially --
 9             MR. KRESSE:  Objection.  Compound question,
10   Your Honor.
11             THE COURT:  Overruled.
12   BY MR. GINGOLD:
13   Q.   You can answer the question.
14   A.   At the beginning they were taken for the progress report
15   for the Office of Historical Trust Accounting, and then most
16   recently they were taken because I understood that the Judge
17   showed an interest in going to this facility, and in the event
18   that he didn't go, we wanted to show what the facility looked
19   like.
20   Q.   So you wanted to give a good picture of what Lenexa is
21   today.
22   A.   That would be accurate.
23   Q.   And what you considered important in that regard is
24   captured in the photographs; is that correct?
25   A.   Me and Ms. Mills, Lena Mills.
0398
 1   Q.   Were there a number of other photographs that were taken
 2   that weren't used?
 3   A.   Not that I know of.  I thought they were all used.
 4   Q.   And was there anything else you would have liked to
 5   photograph that you didn't?
 6   A.   None, no.
 7   Q.   So essentially what -- is it fair to say what you tried to
 8   depict in the photographs was the nature of the facility itself?
 9   A.   That is correct.
10   Q.   The type of work that's being conducted in the facility?
11   A.   That is correct.
12   Q.   The nature of the security of the documents?
13   A.   Yes.  That would be accurate.
14   Q.   The volume of activity that is occurring on a daily or
15   weekly basis?
16   A.   I don't know that you get an idea for the volume of
17   activity that's occurring by the pictures that you just saw.
18   Q.   How many people are working on any one day in that facility
19   on the record indexing and encoding?
20   A.   I'm not too sure about the number that are working on the
21   indexing, which is in that above-ground facility, because I'm
22   not with the Office of Trust Records.  They use a contractor,
23   Labat, that's not my contractor.  It appears to me that there
24   are about between 50 and 90 people in that facility.
25   Q.   How many people are working for you in the facility?
0399
 1   A.   130, 135.
 2   Q.   And how many are totally in the facility, whether they're
 3   working for you or OTR?
 4   A.   Well, let's see.  Office of Trust Records has between 15
 5   and maybe 25 on their side, and I don't know what the number is
 6   that's working for the National Archives.
 7   Q.   So generally speaking, what we saw in the photographs
 8   depicts what we would see in snapshots if we visited the
 9   facility.  Is that a fair statement?
10   A.   That would be accurate.
11   Q.   And, for example, the boxes that identified the type of
12   information that might be in the particular boxes where you had
13   the descriptions on the outside, that would be what you
14   anticipate were contained in the boxes, correct?
15   A.   That is correct.
16   Q.   But you yourself didn't actually view the inside of the box
17   and check it, did you?
18   A.   That one particular box we had a photograph of?  No, I did
19   not open it and view the inside of it.
20   Q.   But generally speaking, this is what depicts what we would
21   see, and it's as simple as that, isn't it?
22   A.   That is correct.
23             MR. GINGOLD:  Your Honor, based on that we wouldn't
24   have any objection to those photographs of the Lenexa facility
25   being admitted.  There's no reason to question the witness's
0400
 1   statement that this is what we would see if we were there.
 2             THE COURT:  Anything after Exhibit 221 that was
 3   mentioned, 221, 220, 225, 227, 226, and then I lost track of
 4   them.
 5             MR. KRESSE:  Your Honor, if it helps --
 6             THE COURT:  We'll do it after.  Let's not keep the
 7   witness waiting.
 8             MR. GINGOLD:  I'm just trying to move this along.
 9             THE COURT:  Go ahead.  I'm glad you're trying to move
10   it along.
11   BY MR. GINGOLD:
12   Q.   With respect to the old ledgers that were identified in the
13   photographs, I believe what I was able to see on the screen, and
14   my eyes are going too, is the ledgers going back to 1875, is
15   that correct?
16   A.   Yes.
17   Q.   And the ledgers that went back to 1875 preexist the
18   Allotment Act, the General Allotment Act of 1887, didn't they?
19   A.   Yes.
20   Q.   So there is money going in to the government and out of the
21   government for payment to individual Indians, correct?
22   A.   I don't know that it was to, for individual Indians,
23   because that ledger that you saw showed disbursements and
24   collections, and from what I understand of the history of these
25   agencies that were set up across the United States with these
0401
 1   superintendents, they conducted a lot of business with private
 2   individuals, for these forts that they had set up in these
 3   locations across the United States.  I don't know that the money
 4   that they were collecting was for a particular individual
 5   Indian, or it was to buy goods and supplies for the fort itself.
 6   I don't know that.
 7   Q.   That's a fair answer.  I'm just trying to get an
 8   understanding of the information that you have in Lenexa, at
 9   least some of it has nothing to do with individual Indian trust
10   beneficiaries, correct?
11   A.   That's correct.
12   Q.   And as a matter of fact, some of the oldest ledgers may
13   have nothing to do with the individual Indian trust
14   beneficiaries?
15   A.   They may not.
16   Q.   And those ledgers that were identified may have nothing to
17   do with the trust, correct?
18   A.   That would be correct.
19   Q.   But there are ledgers or items that show activity back, I
20   think 1924?  I think there are bank checks that were identified
21   to I think an Oklahoma bank, I think, that you identified as
22   perhaps trust beneficiary checks; is that correct?  Or am I
23   wrong on that?
24   A.   I don't recall.  Was it an exhibit?
25   Q.   It was one of the photographs, where on the ledger sheet
0402
 1   itself it actually identified the name of a bank at the top of
 2   the ledger sheet.  If it was the name of the bank on the top of
 3   the ledger sheet, is that your understanding that it relates to
 4   individual Indian trust money?
 5   A.   What's the question?
 6   Q.   Is the ledger sheet that reflects the name of a bank on the
 7   top of the ledger sheet, does that indicate that individual
 8   Indian trust money is included in that ledger, or is it
 9   something else?
10   A.   Just because it has the name of a bank on the top of the
11   sheet doesn't mean it's individual Indian trust.
12   Q.   Okay.  So none of the ledgers that were identified in the
13   photographs may have anything to do with the individual Indian
14   trust, correct?
15   A.   They may or may not.
16   Q.   But you don't know?
17   A.   Don't know.
18   Q.   And that wasn't verified before the photographs were taken.
19   A.   That's correct.
20   Q.   Now, with regard to the various exhibits that we went
21   through for most of the day prior to the photographs, I think
22   you identified a few that you prepared yourself.  Is that fair?
23   A.   That is correct.
24   Q.   And most of the exhibits you didn't prepare, did you?
25   A.   I don't know about the word "most," but there were some I
0403
 1   did not.
 2   Q.   We'll go through those exhibits then just to make sure.
 3   The original exhibits that were identified as part of a
 4   presentation that you made, do you recall those?  I think the
 5   first presentation was with respect to paragraph 19?
 6   A.   Yes.
 7   Q.   And I think you said subsequently you had presentations
 8   using the same exhibits for other matters; is that correct?
 9   A.   That's correct.
10   Q.   Now, with regard to the paragraph 19 exhibits that I think
11   you even said you prepared for purposes of -- you compiled the
12   exhibits for purposes of a presentation on paragraph 19, is that
13   a correct statement?
14   A.   That's correct.
15   Q.   You compiled the exhibits but you actually didn't prepare
16   the individual documents, did you?
17   A.   Prepare, no.
18   Q.   Didn't create the documents?
19   A.   No, did not.
20   Q.   You didn't create the document and you collected the
21   documents and compiled them for purposes of a presentation.
22   A.   That's correct.
23   Q.   Did you verify the accuracy of the information in the
24   documents?
25   A.   Like?
0404
 1   Q.   Like if $10 was collected from an agency, and let's say it
 2   was the Anadarko Agency, did you verify that that $10 was
 3   actually collected?
 4   A.   I'm trying to think of how to answer this.  Those exhibits
 5   were obtained from our contractor, an accounting firm, who had
 6   already reconciled that particular transaction; which is why
 7   they had those documents at their ready for us to use.
 8   Q.   Again, before we go into the individual exhibits, I want to
 9   get a clear idea, and I think this has been very helpful.  Which
10   contractor?
11   A.   Chavarria, Dunne & Lamey.
12   Q.   CD&L.  When did CD&L reconcile those -- were they
13   transactions that were reconciled or accounts that were
14   reconciled?
15   A.   They were transactions.
16   Q.   And when were they reconciled, do you know?
17   A.   It would have been '90 something.  '95, '96, '97.
18   Q.   Let me see if I can help you.
19   A.   Okay.
20   Q.   If we're dealing with paragraph 19, which was the original
21   purpose, was that approximately 1999 or 2000?  Or was it prior
22   to that?
23   A.   I think it was prior to that.  I don't recall.
24   Q.   But certainly -- it was certainly not from 2000 forward at
25   least to the best of your recollection.  Fair statement?
0405
 1   A.   What year, 2004?
 2   Q.   2000 forward.  It was probably not that, correct?
 3   A.   Probably not.
 4   Q.   Okay.  So CD&L told you they reconciled those transactions,
 5   correct?
 6   A.   That would be correct.
 7   Q.   Who at CD&L?
 8   A.   Who?
 9   Q.   Who?
10   A.   It would be one of the partners, Karen Dunne.
11   Q.   Did she provide you the work papers so you could review
12   them?
13   A.   No.
14   Q.   Do you know what she did to collect the information?
15   A.   She requested the documents from another contractor that we
16   had searching the boxes, that were then provided to the
17   accounting firm, and then they utilized those.
18   Q.   When I'm asking you a question as to what you know or don't
19   know, I mean to limit it to what information do you know is the
20   case, that you can testify to as a matter of fact, not what you
21   believe occurred.
22   A.   All right.
23   Q.   Do you know how they collected the information?
24   A.   Do I know?
25   Q.   What CD&L did to collect the information to support the
0406
 1   transactions they say were reconciled.
 2   A.   Well, if I'm going to a facility every day, and they're at
 3   the facility with me every day, and I see them put in requests
 4   to a different contractor every day, and I see documents
 5   provided back to them every day, I'm under the impression
 6   they're doing what we told them to do, what we contracted them
 7   to do, and that would be to collect documents and eventually
 8   reconcile.
 9   Q.   So you assumed they collected those documents that way, but
10   you don't know as a matter of fact, do you?
11   A.   Okay, I don't.
12   Q.   Thank you.  Again, you've been represented to us as a fact
13   witness.
14   A.   I understand.
15   Q.   Not as an expert witness.
16   A.   Understand.
17   Q.   Thank you.  With respect to -- so you don't know what CD&L
18   reviewed and didn't consider or considered and excluded in
19   providing you information they say are reconciled documents, do
20   you?
21   A.   What they excluded?
22   Q.   Yes.  What did they exclude in the process to provide you
23   that information?
24   A.   I don't know that.
25   Q.   Do you know how many transactions they reconciled?
0407
 1   A.   No, not off the top of my head.
 2   Q.   Do you know how many transactions they couldn't reconcile
 3   before they were able to provide you that linkage?
 4   A.   No, not off the top of my head.
 5   Q.   Did you ask them?
 6   A.   We require them to provide us reports on what was
 7   reconciled and therefore what was yet to be reconciled.
 8   Q.   With regard to the particular documents that were used in
 9   the presentation for paragraph 19, did you ask them what they
10   did in order to come up with that particular linkage, what they
11   excluded?
12   A.   No, I did not ask them.
13   Q.   Did you ask them what they couldn't reconcile before they
14   came to the particular link documents that were presented to you
15   for presentation in the paragraph 19 search?  Or presentation,
16   sorry.
17   A.   No.
18   Q.   Do you believe those documents are representative of all
19   the documents that are at Lenexa?
20   A.   Yes, I would say they're representative.
21   Q.   Do you believe the transactions that you described were
22   consistently applied in the department and across the bureaus
23   and agencies during that period of time the documents are
24   reflected?
25   A.   That they were consistently applied?
0408
 1   Q.   That's right.  You're suggesting, I believe, based on the
 2   documentation, that this is the practice that occurred.  When
 3   you said the agency should have done this, something would have
 4   been done that way, you're suggesting that that is a consistent
 5   practice throughout the agency.
 6   A.   That's correct.
 7   Q.   Were you aware of any audit reports from independent
 8   certified public accountants that said there was no such
 9   consistent practice during that period of time?
10   A.   Yes.  I had heard that there were, at least one that I know
11   of.
12   Q.   Which one?
13   A.   I don't know if it was Arthur Andersen or a different firm.
14   Q.   But you were -- at least you've heard that, notwithstanding
15   your belief right now that there was a consistent practice --
16   A.   That's correct.
17   Q.   -- that an independent certified public accountant said
18   there was no such consistent practice, correct?
19   A.   Correct.
20   Q.   Now, you're making the statement that you believe it was a
21   consistent practice.  Is this based on your personal
22   observations?
23   A.   Yes.
24   Q.   Personal observations in the 80 or more agencies?
25   A.   90 or more?
0409
 1   Q.   80 or more, depending on the period of time, there were 80
 2   to a hundred agencies if my understanding is correct.  Is that
 3   fair?
 4   A.   I only understood it to be 90 or something.
 5   Q.   Okay.  We can get into that.
 6   A.   Okay.
 7   Q.   I was trying to be more conservative.  Let's say 90 or
 8   more.  I'll accept your number.
 9   A.   Okay.
10   Q.   You observed the practices in the 90 or more agencies
11   during that period of time?
12   A.   Not all 90.
13   Q.   How many?
14   A.   Oh, let's see.  Between 30 and 50 maybe.
15   Q.   During that particular period of time that the documents
16   reflected, you observed those practices in 30 to 50 agencies on
17   a consistent basis?
18   A.   The time that the documents were reflected or the time that
19   I was in the eight years in the branch of IIM?
20   Q.   The time that the documents are reflected.
21   A.   There was a document that was 1950 something.
22   Q.   So you couldn't have done that, could you?
23   A.   That's correct.
24   Q.   So let's talk about 1989.
25   A.   Okay.
0410
 1   Q.   1989, did you observe those practices in 30 to 50 agencies?
 2   A.   In some of them, yes.
 3   Q.   In 30 to 50 agencies?
 4   A.   No, not 30 to 50.
 5   Q.   How many?
 6   A.   It took me eight years to eventually visit 30 to 50
 7   agencies and 10 regional offices.  So in '89 I had been in the
 8   branch probably about a year.  I don't know how many agencies I
 9   had visited at that point.
10   Q.   Do you have an idea?
11   A.   No.
12   Q.   You were the IIM clerk at that time, is that fair?
13   A.   I was an accountant in the branch of our section of IIM.
14   Q.   You were an --
15   A.   Accountant.
16   Q.   You graduated with a degree in accountancy; is that
17   correct?
18   A.   That's correct.
19   Q.   And you're eligible to take the CPA exam, correct?
20   A.   That's correct.
21   Q.   And you took the CPA exam?
22   A.   Yes, I did.
23   Q.   And you're licensed in New Mexico?
24   A.   No, I did not pass the exam.  I do not have my license.
25   Q.   For purposes of Interior, you don't have to be a CPA to be
0411
 1   an accountant?
 2   A.   That's correct, you do not.
 3   Q.   What are the qualifications at Interior for an accountant?
 4   A.   So many hours of accounting and certain number of years
 5   experience.
 6   Q.   Is it 24 hours?
 7   A.   I don't recall.
 8   Q.   And years of experience as an accountant?
 9   A.   Correct.
10   Q.   So you can be -- and that's the years of experience, I
11   think you said you were with Arthur Andersen before --
12   A.   Yes.  I was with Andersen and Llewellyn & Company.
13   Q.   And how many years was that?
14   A.   That was two years all together.
15   Q.   And then you went to the Department of the Interior.
16   A.   Correct.
17   Q.   Now, did you work with Arthur Andersen while you were at --
18   when you were the IIM clerk at Interior at all?
19   A.   I don't think I worked with them until -- no, I did.  I
20   worked with them when I was an accountant in the branch.
21   Q.   And did they -- was it during the audit, is that correct?
22   A.   I'm pretty sure it was an audit that they were performing,
23   yes.
24   Q.   Was it the FY89 and FY88 audits?
25   A.   That sounds about right.
0412
 1   Q.   Did you ever talk to Andersen employees about the nature of
 2   the audit and issues that were being raised?
 3   A.   No, not about the nature of the audit or issues that were
 4   being raised, no.
 5   Q.   What did you talk to them about?
 6   A.   About how the process worked, why did it work like this,
 7   where are these documents at.
 8   Q.   And did they have any discussion with you at that point as
 9   to whether or not they felt practices were consistent within the
10   Bureau of Indian Affairs at that time?
11   A.   No, they didn't have those discussions with me.
12   Q.   But you heard rumors that they found that they were not
13   consistent, correct?
14   A.   When the eventual audit was completed, I heard that.
15   Q.   Did you read the report itself?
16   A.   No, I did not.
17   Q.   Did anyone offer it to you?
18   A.   Yes, they did.
19   Q.   Was it Mr. Parris?
20   A.   It probably was.
21   Q.   Now, in the hierarchy at OTFM at that time was it
22   Mr. Parris as the director?
23   A.   Well, initially he was a branch chief and then a division
24   chief and then a director.
25   Q.   And then was Ms. Erwin brought in sometime, Donna Erwin?
0413
 1   A.   Yes, she was.
 2   Q.   And she was brought in in what position?
 3   A.   As the deputy director.
 4   Q.   Did you report to Ms. Erwin?
 5   A.   No.  I would have reported to a division chief, but
 6   eventually to Donna, yes.
 7   Q.   Who did you report to?
 8   A.   Don Gray was the division chief for a while.
 9   Q.   So before we go through, we're going to be going through,
10   Your Honor, a document identified as Plaintiffs' 126, which is
11   the Arthur Andersen audit report for 1989 and 1988.
12             MR. KRESSE:  Your Honor, this is beyond the scope of
13   the direct.
14             MR. GINGOLD:  Your Honor, this deals directly with the
15   questions as to whether or not the exhibits that were introduced
16   are representative of what was occurring in the Department at
17   that time.
18             MR. KRESSE:  The exhibits that I believe
19   Mr. Gingold --
20             THE COURT:  It's going to come in sooner or later.
21   I'll allow it.  Let's go.
22   BY MR. GINGOLD:
23   Q.   Let's deal with Defendants' 206, for example, which was one
24   of the exhibits I think that involved a bill for collection, a
25   calculation of money, it involved -- I think there was a total
0414
 1   that was approximately -- I think it was $24,000 on the bottom
 2   of the page.  You may have seen this, you've seen it a lot more
 3   than I have, so you may be more familiar with it.
 4        But one of the questions I want to ask you is this:  When
 5   these exhibits were put together, was the information at least
 6   verified as being accurately calculated?
 7   A.   Like was the face of that bill for collection accurate?
 8   Q.   For example, if you had a total of $24,000, would the
 9   number of credits equal that total of $24,000, to the best of
10   your knowledge?
11   A.   Yes.
12   Q.   Maybe you can explain something to me, then.  In Exhibit
13   206, it's Defendant's 206 -- and I'm doing this based on my
14   handwritten notes too, so bear with me a little bit.  The total
15   was approximately $24,000?
16             MR. KRESSE:  Your Honor, the defendants could put this
17   exhibit up if it would be helpful.
18             THE COURT:  Well, put it up.
19             MR. GINGOLD:  Your Honor, I don't have any control
20   over that.
21             THE DEPUTY CLERK:  In speaking with Mr. Cramer, he
22   wanted me to ask you if you hit the function F keys.  You have.
23   Okay.  Let me switch it back, then.
24             MR. GINGOLD:  Your Honor, this is the reason some of
25   us like paper documents.
0415
 1             THE COURT:  Try putting the defense table up.
 2             THE DEPUTY CLERK:  I switched back to defense now.
 3             THE COURT:  There you go.
 4             THE DEPUTY CLERK:  We're going to try one more time.
 5   Your assistants asked me one more time to switch back one more
 6   time and see if it works.  No?  Okay.
 7             THE COURT:  Okay.
 8             MR. GINGOLD:  If you can bear with me, Your Honor,
 9   because I'm asking defendants for assistance.  If we can have as
10   much of the page as possible down to the total of 24,000 --
11   where it's readable for some of us who can't read this.  Yeah.
12   If you go down a little bit more.  If you could drop it a bit,
13   please, to the total.  The total, there it is.  $24,300.
14   BY MR. GINGOLD:
15   Q.   I'm not a mathematician, but I've added that up and that
16   comes up to approximately $7,372.77, and it shows a total on the
17   right, if I can read this correctly, of $24,300.01.  Can you
18   explain that?
19   A.   It looks like this is more than a one-page document,
20   because of the word continued right in front of the 24,000.  So
21   there are more pages to this particular bill for collection that
22   would eventually add up to 24,300.01.
23   Q.   You assume.
24   A.   Okay.  I assume.
25   Q.   Looks like we have some missing pages, don't we?
0416
 1   A.   That's correct.
 2   Q.   Was this intentional to demonstrate that some of the
 3   documentation at Lenexa is incomplete?
 4   A.   No.
 5   Q.   Okay.  But this, based on your testimony, is consistent
 6   with the practices during the period of time that you were at
 7   the Department of Interior?
 8   A.   That they would continue beyond one page, yes, they would.
 9   Q.   No, that there would be documents that --
10             MR. KRESSE:  Your Honor, he's not letting the witness
11   finish her answer.
12             THE COURT:  I think she did finish the answer.  Go
13   ahead.
14             THE WITNESS:  I'm done.
15   BY MR. GINGOLD:
16   Q.   That there would be documents -- if you find documents at
17   Lenexa, the documents may not be complete but they may be
18   related to the subject matter; is that correct?
19   A.   No.  That's not what I was saying.
20   Q.   Okay.  When you said consistency, what did you mean?
21   A.   I meant that it's consistent that you would have a bill for
22   collection that is more than one page.
23   Q.   Is it consistent that you would find documents that aren't
24   complete?
25   A.   In Lenexa?
0417
 1   Q.   Correct.
 2   A.   You could.
 3   Q.   As a matter of fact, you've had experience with contractors
 4   who have told you that the boxes weren't complete, correct?
 5   A.   What do you mean when you say the boxes aren't complete?
 6   Q.   You say -- I think you index boxes and identified
 7   inventories of files in boxes, correct?
 8   A.   Yes.  They would inventory boxes, yes.
 9   Q.   Were you ever told for example by NORC that boxes that they
10   searched relating to the activity they're engaged in in the
11   litigation support accounting did not contain the information
12   that was reflected in the index or inventory?
13   A.   No.  NORC never told me that.
14   Q.   Did anybody tell you that?
15   A.   Yes.  I had heard that from others.
16   Q.   And were you also told the description of the contents of
17   the box on the outside of the box didn't match the contents on
18   the inside of the box?
19   A.   I have heard that on occasion.
20   Q.   And were you also told that some of the boxes had nothing
21   at all in them, notwithstanding what was reflected on the
22   outside of the box?
23   A.   I heard about that once, yes.
24             THE COURT:  A lot of hearsay coming into this trial.
25   BY MR. GINGOLD:
0418
 1   Q.   Well, it's because you haven't actually inventoried the
 2   boxes yourselves, have you?
 3   A.   That's correct, I do not.
 4   Q.   And you haven't actually verified any of the information
 5   contained in the documents that you testified to in response to
 6   Mr. Kresse's question, did you?
 7   A.   If you mean verified like did I reconcile the transaction?
 8   No.  Did I track a particular transaction from a ledger to a
 9   bill to a something to a something?  Yes.
10   Q.   Well, that was tracked by CD&L and it was given to you,
11   wasn't it?
12   A.   I understand, yes.
13   Q.   So you were given tracked documents to review, correct?
14   A.   Yes.
15   Q.   Now, bills of collection -- deposits don't reflect
16   individual Indian trust beneficiary accounts, do they?
17   A.   Deposit ticket itself does not normally quote an account
18   holder's account.
19   Q.   And bills of collection don't either, do they?
20   A.   Normally they do not.
21   Q.   And the CP&R data you've referred to, I think you've
22   testified -- and please correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't
23   want to misstate your testimony.  I think you said information
24   provided by Interior to Treasury is included in the CPR
25   database; correct?
0419
 1   A.   That's correct.
 2   Q.   So the CPR database that comes back to you, the CPR
 3   database, that's Interior information, correct?
 4   A.   You could say that.
 5   Q.   So it should match a hundred percent all the time,
 6   shouldn't it?
 7   A.   Okay.  Are you accounting for human error?  Automated
 8   error?
 9   Q.   So there are potential problems with errors, correct?
10   A.   Correct.
11   Q.   And as a matter of fact, you've also heard that the CP&R
12   database has been overwritten periodically, correct?
13   A.   No.  I never heard that.
14   Q.   You've never heard that?
15   A.   Never.
16   Q.   Have you heard that CPR tapes are missing?
17   A.   No.  Never heard that.
18   Q.   Have you heard whether or not the Treasury Department
19   verified any of the information contained in the CPR tapes?
20             MR. KRESSE:  Objection.  Beyond the scope of the
21   direct examination.
22             THE COURT:  I thought you were going to object to the
23   "have you heard," and I'll sustain that objection.
24             MR. GINGOLD:  Your Honor, I'll go as far as I can go
25   without the objections.  But I understand.
0420
 1   BY MR. GINGOLD:
 2   Q.   Do you know whether or not Treasury has verified the
 3   information in the CPR tapes?
 4   A.   Well, if a report comes back from Treasury that has certain
 5   check information on it that equals the database that we have,
 6   is that what you would call verification?  Is that the word
 7   you're using?
 8   Q.   What is your understanding of verification?
 9   A.   We're going in a circle here.
10   Q.   Excuse me.  You just testified that the information that
11   goes to CPR is Interior Department information, correct?
12   A.   That's correct.
13   Q.   It's not Treasury Department information; is that correct?
14   A.   That's correct.
15   Q.   So the question I asked you is do you know whether or not
16   the Department of the Treasury verified the accuracy of the
17   information that your agency provided to them.
18   A.   When a check clears a bank, at that point that's
19   verification coming from Treasury, because they take the
20   information from a financial institution, run it through their
21   CP&R system, and then feed the information back to the
22   Department of Interior whether it does or does not match.
23   Q.   Doesn't Treasury report the same information to you that
24   you reported to Treasury?
25   A.   Yes.
0421
 1   Q.   Thank you.  A couple of general questions.  Again, because
 2   we have some mechanical problems or technological, I'm not going
 3   to go into the exhibits I wanted to talk to you about.  However,
 4   with regard to the mass cancellation that you discussed, I think
 5   you described in some detail of the efforts that were taken to
 6   try and correct the debits to individual Indian trust
 7   beneficiary accounts that occurred as a result of the mass
 8   cancellation of checks.  Is that a fair statement?
 9   A.   You said that we tried to correct --
10   Q.   There were debits to the accounts, and the debits to the
11   accounts were caused by checks that were written that were
12   canceled, correct?
13   A.   Yes.
14   Q.   And I think, at least I understood your testimony to mean
15   you were describing the actions taken by the Interior Department
16   to correct the debited entries because the checks were canceled
17   and the beneficiaries received no funds.  Is that a fair
18   statement?
19   A.   No.  I would say to refund, not correct.  When you say
20   correct, I get the impression that it was incorrect.
21   Q.   Okay.  Let me -- I'm sorry for being ambiguous.  When the
22   check was written, the account was debited, correct?
23   A.   Correct.
24   Q.   But the individual never received the funds, correct?
25   A.   Correct.
0422
 1   Q.   So your goal was to restore the account to the condition
 2   prior to the debit, correct?
 3   A.   That's correct.
 4   Q.   Now, let me ask you this question.  I think you also said
 5   that appropriated funds were necessary to accomplish that task?
 6   A.   Correct.
 7   Q.   Help me with this, then.  When the check is written, is --
 8   the 14X6039 account is debited, correct?
 9   A.   That's correct.
10   Q.   And the funds are actually transferred, or the credits are
11   actually transferred to the general Treasury, correct?  They
12   don't leave the Treasury Department, correct?
13   A.   That's correct.
14   Q.   So the funds are in Treasury, in the general Treasury
15   account, correct?
16   A.   That's correct.
17   Q.   If the funds are still in Treasury, why did you need
18   appropriations?  Why couldn't you just reverse the transaction?
19   A.   Because you can't go to a different agency and get their
20   money.  They have to give it to you.  Treasury did not give it
21   to us.
22   Q.   This was individual Indian trust money, not agency money,
23   correct?
24   A.   That's correct.
25   Q.   And the money was still held at Treasury, correct?
0423
 1   A.   Correct.
 2   Q.   But it was your understanding, because individual Indian
 3   trust money was transferred from one account at Treasury to
 4   another account at Treasury; that it was no longer individual
 5   Indian trust money?
 6   A.   No, that's not my understanding, that it's no longer
 7   individual -- no.
 8   Q.   Then what is it?
 9   A.   It's money that is set aside for individual Indians.
10   Q.   It's still being held by Treasury, correct?
11   A.   That's correct.
12   Q.   Was there a regulation that you're following in order --
13   that prevented you from having the transaction reversed?
14   A.   From what I understand, if you want money from one
15   agency -- no.  If one agency is transferring money to a
16   different agency, there's a form that's filled out and an action
17   that's taken.  If you want to go get money from the GAO or IRS
18   or whomever, you don't fill out the form and there you go, you
19   got it.  You have to fill out a form, signatures are obtained,
20   and then a transfer occurs.  So just because I wanted the money
21   back that belonged to these individual Indians doesn't mean I go
22   to Treasury and get it.
23   Q.   Well, the money is held at Treasury, not in Interior,
24   correct?
25   A.   Yes, that's correct.
0424
 1             THE COURT:  Mr. Gingold, you're starting to argue with
 2   the witness about this, and just let me see if my understanding
 3   of this is correct, because I don't think we need to spend a lot
 4   more time on this issue.  As I understand the witness's
 5   testimony, after the statute was enacted and after the checks
 6   were canceled, BIA realized that some of the money that had been
 7   canceled was trust money, and it said to the Treasury, that's
 8   trust money, you can't take it away, and Treasury said, tough,
 9   you're not getting it back.  That's why they had to go to
10   Capitol Hill.
11        So as I understand, BIA asked for it, Treasury refused it,
12   they went up to Capitol Hill and got an appropriation.  Is that
13   correct?
14             THE WITNESS:  That is correct.
15             THE COURT:  All right.  What's your next question?
16             MR. GINGOLD:  Your Honor, there's one aspect of that
17   that may be important to consider.  The money is the trust
18   money, not the agency's money, and it remained in the Treasury.
19             THE COURT:  I think that's what she said.  But
20   Treasury wouldn't give it back.
21   BY MR. GINGOLD:
22   Q.   Did they explain to you why they wouldn't give it back?
23   A.   Yes.  In that one particular exhibit, I don't know the
24   exhibit number, there was the letter from Treasury to Dr. Brown
25   that explained that it was due to the disbursing authority, that
0425
 1   they did not have to give the money back.
 2             THE COURT:  Exhibit number is 230.
 3             MR. GINGOLD:  Your Honor, the equipment is now
 4   operating.
 5             THE COURT:  Good.
 6             MR. GINGOLD:  If I may, Your Honor, I was going to
 7   these other exhibits because I wasn't -- so, Your Honor, I
 8   will --
 9   BY MR. GINGOLD:
10   Q.   Whatever happened on the mass cancellation happened, and to
11   the extent money was restored it was restored.  Is that fair?
12   A.   That's correct.
13   Q.   Let's go to Plaintiffs' 126.  Are you able to read this,
14   Ms. Ramirez, or do we need to make it larger?
15   A.   That's good.
16   Q.   I referenced earlier the audit report of Arthur Andersen.
17   This is the audit report that I was mentioning to you.  Did you
18   ever see this before?
19   A.   It looks familiar.
20   Q.   So you may have read it --
21             MR. KRESSE:  Your Honor, objection.  She hasn't seen
22   anything more than the title of this document.
23             MR. GINGOLD:  Your Honor, she answered the question.
24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, the title page looks familiar.
25             THE COURT:  Overruled.  Proceed.
0426
 1   BY MR. GINGOLD:
 2   Q.   I'd like to turn to page 3.  And Your Honor, the pages that
 3   I'm referencing are not the page numbers at the bottom of the
 4   page.  It's how the exhibit was produced.
 5        Page 3, as you can see, Ms. Ramirez, is the letterhead of
 6   Arthur Andersen, "Report of independent public accountants, May
 7   11, 1990."  Do you see that?
 8   A.   Yes, I see it.
 9   Q.   Again, have you seen this before or to --
10   A.   This page does not look familiar.
11   Q.   Do you know -- have you heard whether or not this was the
12   first audit that was done in the history of the trust?
13             MR. KRESSE:  Objection, Your Honor.  Seeks hearsay.
14             THE COURT:  Sustained.
15   BY MR. GINGOLD:
16   Q.   Do you know whether this is the first audit that was
17   performed in the history of the trust?
18   A.   I have heard that it was.
19             MR. KRESSE:  Your Honor, same objection.
20             THE COURT:  All right.  Look, these are frankly
21   rhetorical points, counsel.  I don't care whether or not it was
22   the first audit ever done.  You've made your point.  Ask your
23   next question.
24             MR. KRESSE:  Your Honor, by the way, we don't see this
25   as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 126.
0427
 1             MR. GINGOLD:  Well, no, we have two numbers.  We have
 2   0575.  It's also 126 there.
 3             MR. KRESSE:  That's for this trial?
 4             MR. GINGOLD:  Yes.
 5             THE COURT:  Proceed, sir.
 6             MR. GINGOLD:  Thank you.
 7   BY MR. GINGOLD:
 8   Q.   I'd like you to turn to the bottom of this page that we are
 9   looking at, which is page 3, not page 1 of the -- there's a page
10   1 in the middle of the page, but it's the third page in this
11   exhibit.  And could you just read the last paragraph and the
12   first paragraph of the next page?
13             THE COURT:  Read it to yourself.
14             MR. GINGOLD:  That's what I intended.
15             THE WITNESS:  Do I need to read it out loud?
16             MR. GINGOLD:  No.  Please read it to yourself.
17        (Witness reviewing document.)
18             THE WITNESS:  All right.  It continues.
19   BY MR. GINGOLD:
20   Q.   Do you see with respect to this exhibit that with regard to
21   item No. 1, that cash balances -- "cash and balances held in
22   trust for Indian tribes, organization, individuals cannot be
23   readily confirmed"?  Do you see that?
24   A.   Yes, I see that.
25   Q.   Now, during the period of time you were there, did you have
0428
 1   discussions with Arthur Andersen about that particular issue?
 2   A.   I don't recall.
 3   Q.   Okay.  The second item says, "Because of major inadequacies
 4   in the accounting records and related systems used to account
 5   for the tribal and individual Indian monies trust managed by the
 6   Bureau," this relates to why there has to be a qualified report.
 7   So we'll go into that a little bit.  Were you aware that there
 8   were questions about the inadequacies of the accounting records
 9   and systems at the time?
10   A.   That there were inadequacies in the what?
11   Q.   Accounting records and systems.
12             THE COURT:  I'm beginning to wonder whether I should
13   have sustained that beyond the scope objection, Mr. Gingold.
14   What this witness has told us basically about paper flow, she
15   hasn't said anything about an audit.  She told us about the mass
16   cancellation and she showed me that -- she gave me a slide show
17   about Lenexa.  I don't know why you need to turn her into a
18   witness to either verify or not verify an Arthur Andersen audit
19   that was done in 1990.
20             MR. GINGOLD:  Well, this is an audit that was
21   contemporaneous with documents that were introduced or
22   identified.
23             THE COURT:  Well, let me tell you what I take from
24   these exhibits that you are so upset about.  I do not think that
25   I heard this witness say that all of these exhibits that show
0429
 1   how the paperwork worked were invariably correct or were error
 2   free or were used in every office or that they demonstrate the
 3   perfection of the system.  I heard her to be showing me how a
 4   typical paperwork exercise would work.
 5        Now, I don't know how you can cross-examine that except to
 6   say, well, that isn't how it worked or it never worked that way.
 7   I think if you asked her -- I think in fact I'll ask her myself.
 8        Ms. Ramirez, you showed me an SF 1098, you showed me an oil
 9   and gas mining lease, you showed me a bill for collection, you
10   showed me a schedule of collections, you showed me a certificate
11   of deposit, a title status report, a journal voucher, a ledger
12   card, and a 139B with a daily disbursement report.  I gather
13   that was to show me how the paperwork generally worked during
14   that era.
15             THE WITNESS:  That's correct.
16             THE COURT:  Are you telling me that it always worked
17   that way?
18             THE WITNESS:  No.  It did --
19             THE COURT:  Are you telling me that there were no
20   human mistakes?
21             THE WITNESS:  No, I'm not saying that.
22             THE COURT:  Are you telling me that these documents
23   all exist and didn't get lost and eaten up by rats and dumped on
24   by birds?
25             THE WITNESS:  I'm not saying that either.
0430
 1             THE COURT:  Your witness, Mr. Gingold.
 2             MR. GINGOLD:  Your Honor, there's another aspect to
 3   this.  For most of the period of the trust, the superintendents
 4   of the agencies handled the transactions, not the central office
 5   in Washington and not Albuquerque.  So what --
 6   BY MR. GINGOLD:
 7   Q.   Is that correct?
 8   A.   Yes.
 9   Q.   As a matter of fact, the superintendents themselves issued
10   checks, correct?
11   A.   That's correct.
12   Q.   And whether or not these particular documents reflected the
13   transaction, you can't say that they reflected a transaction in
14   any of the agencies other than the one you're looking at at any
15   time, can you?
16   A.   For the period of time when I was in the branch of IIM, or
17   in the documentation that I saw when I was in the branch of IIM,
18   that's what I know it to be.  For any other time, no, I couldn't
19   tell you.
20   Q.   And didn't superintendents have autonomy to handle
21   transactions for the most part the way they wanted to?
22   A.   At the onset, they did.
23   Q.   How long did the onset go?
24   A.   I have no idea.
25   Q.   Do you know when it stopped?
0431
 1   A.   No.
 2             MR. GINGOLD:  Your Honor, we probably don't have any
 3   further questions in that regard, then.
 4   BY MR. GINGOLD:
 5   Q.   But as a result, you gave us a snapshot in time with regard
 6   to a linked transaction provided by CD&L.  And that's it, isn't
 7   it?
 8   A.   That's correct.
 9             MR. GINGOLD:  No further questions, Your Honor.
10             THE COURT:  Thank you.  Got another witness?
11             MR. KRESSE:  Your Honor, as to the motion to move
12   these exhibits into evidence, is there -- in the interest of
13   saving time --
14             THE COURT:  Yeah.  Mr. Gingold made, I think, an
15   authenticity objection, but I had understood that authenticity
16   was not going to be a problem in this trial unless there was
17   some specific claim of an inauthentic document.  So unless
18   there's some specific objection to some of these, all of the
19   exhibits shown to Ms. Ramirez will be received in evidence, with
20   my understanding as I've just described about what they mean,
21   and the weight of them is open for argument later on.
22             MR. GINGOLD:  Your Honor, we believe there is no
23   testimony as to who created the documents, what information was
24   used, when they were prepared.  We understand your view on
25   authenticity in a way, but we believe there's too much that
0432
 1   hasn't been resolved in order to introduce these into evidence.
 2             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, the documents will all be
 3   received and you can argue later on about what they mean.
 4             MR. QUINN:  Our next witness will be Michelle Herman.
 5             THE COURT:  All right.  Ms. Ramirez, thank you.
 6        (The witness steps down.)
 7             MR. QUINN:  Good afternoon, Your Honor.  Michael Quinn
 8   for the government.  My witness will be right along.  I had just
 9   come in to check on proceedings and she had taken that
10   opportunity to go use the restroom.  So she'll be here
11   momentarily.
12        I did understand from my colleagues, Your Honor, that you
13   were interested in getting a little preview from counsel as to
14   what the witness -- we expect the witness to testify about.  I'm
15   prepared to do that now if you like, while we wait.
16             THE COURT:  Go ahead.
17             MR. QUINN:  Ms. Michelle Herman is a managing director
18   of the consulting firm of FTI.  She held previous positions with
19   other accounting firms, beginning in 1995 with Arthur Andersen,
20   and had begun work on the historical accounting in the Cobell
21   litigation in her early positions with Arthur Andersen.
22        She then moved to a similar position at KPMG and continued
23   to do work in connection with the examination of data, study of
24   the electronic data sets, and investigation of the accounting
25   records that the Department of the Interior had for IIM
0433
 1   accounts.  She's continued that work over the last -- since
 2   1996, almost over the entire length of this case.
 3        Ms. Herman has been involved with the data completeness
 4   validation testing that's just been reported on, the reports
 5   that were issued on September 30 of this year that we've marked
 6   as exhibits in this case for the purposes of the hearing.  She's
 7   also performed and overseen people doing the account
 8   reconciliations as part of the actual testing of sampled
 9   accounts, testing of high-dollar value transactions, and part of
10   the historical accounting work, and has also worked with the
11   Office of Historical Trust Accounting in terms of developing the
12   historical statements of account, effectively what kind of
13   information those accounts would -- statements would provide to
14   beneficiaries.
15             THE COURT:  Okay.
16             MR. QUINN:  With that, I'd like to ask the witness,
17   call Ms. Herman to the stand.
18             THE COURT:  All right.
19          MICHELLE HERMAN, WITNESS FOR THE GOVERNMENT, SWORN
20             THE COURT:  Particularly with that introduction you've
21   already given me, Mr. Quinn, you don't have to give me much
22   background.
23             MR. QUINN:  I understand that, Your Honor.  I'll
24   attempt to do that.  The only place I would like a little
25   leeway, Your Honor, is with respect to making a record of the
0434
 1   extent to which she's been involved in the data analysis over
 2   time.
 3                         DIRECT EXAMINATION
 4   BY MR. QUINN:
 5   Q.   Good afternoon, Ms. Herman.
 6   A.   Good afternoon.
 7   Q.   Could you state your name for the record, please?
 8   A.   Michelle Herman.
 9   Q.   And for the record, give your position and the name of the
10   company where you're employed.
11   A.   I'm a managing director at FTI Consulting.
12   Q.   Were you here for my summary of your work experience for
13   the Court?
14   A.   No, I'm sorry, I was not.
15   Q.   What particular area of FTI do you work with?
16   A.   I work in the financial and enterprise data analytics
17   practice.
18   Q.   Financial and enterprise data analytics?
19   A.   Yes.
20   Q.   Could you describe what the general nature is of the kind
21   of work that you do in that group?
22   A.   Typically our group is involved in large class action
23   lawsuits, and fundamentally analyzing large transactional and
24   operational data sets.
25   Q.   And I take it since you're sitting here on the stand today,
0435
 1   that you have had some involvement with the Cobell lawsuit and
 2   the historical accounting?
 3   A.   Yes, I have.
 4   Q.   When did you first become involved with any aspect of the
 5   historical accounting work?
 6   A.   In early 1997.
 7   Q.   And in what way did you become involved with the historical
 8   accounting in 1997?
 9   A.   I received a data set from the Office of Trust Funds
10   Management and I was asked to aggregate all of that information
11   into a single database.
12   Q.   Was there a particular computer system that you were
13   working with at that time?
14   A.   Yes.  The Integrated Records Management System, IRMS.
15   Q.   IRMS, okay.  And you have testified once before in this
16   case; is that right?
17   A.   Yes, I have.
18   Q.   Do you recall what part of the case you testified in?
19   A.   Trial 1.5.
20   Q.   And were you testifying as a fact witness or an expert
21   witness?
22   A.   As a fact witness.
23   Q.   Let's see if we could give the Court a sense of the
24   experience you've had in working with the data and the
25   accounting information that you've seen and come in contact with
0436
 1   over time, okay?
 2        Ms. Herman, do you see that on your screen, the first
 3   slide?
 4   A.   Yes, I do.
 5   Q.   It's titled -- this is, for the record, this is from the
 6   administrative record, this is marked as AR 5-65 with a title
 7   page of "Historical Accounting Project."  Can you read that
 8   okay?
 9   A.   Yes, I can.
10   Q.   Have you seen this document before?
11   A.   Yes, I have.
12   Q.   Could you describe it for the Court?
13   A.   This is the historical accounting plan, as we refer to it,
14   the green plan.
15   Q.   Green plan.  And is that the plan from 1997?
16   A.   This is the 2007 plan.
17   Q.   Okay.  Have you seen this before?
18   A.   Yes, I have.
19   Q.   Have you seen the 2003 plan?
20   A.   Yes, I did.
21   Q.   What do you commonly refer to that as?
22   A.   The purple plan.
23   Q.   Go to the second slide of this same exhibit, Ms. Herman,
24   and put up there page 5 from the 2007 plan.  And if we could
25   zoom in on the highlighted text there.  Do you see that
0437
 1   description on the accounting firms?
 2   A.   Yes, I do.
 3   Q.   Could we scroll down to the bottom.  This is document
 4   33-2-7, page 5 of the 1997 -- 2007 plan.  In there there's a
 5   description of five accounting firms under contract to Interior
 6   to assist with the historical accounting.  Do you see your firm
 7   identified there?
 8   A.   Yes.
 9   Q.   Okay.  And it refers to FTI Consulting is conducting
10   forensic accounting work?
11   A.   Yes, it does.
12   Q.   Among other firms.  Do you recognize the other firm names?
13   A.   Yes.  These are the other firms participating in the
14   historical accounting effort.
15   Q.   Have you done work with these other firms in the course of
16   your work on the historical accounting?
17   A.   Yes, with each of these firms.
18   Q.   What type of work is involved with the forensic aspect
19   that's referenced there for your firm as FTI?
20   A.   We evaluate both the electronic historical data as well as
21   the hard copy records; the journal vouchers, the bills for
22   collection, the transaction registers, things of that nature.
23   Q.   Let's go to the next page, the slide also from this 2007
24   plan, and zoom in -- this is page 6 from the 2007 plan.  Do you
25   see that highlighted section on page 6?
0438
 1   A.   Yes, I do.
 2   Q.   It references steps in the historical accounting process
 3   and summarizes those steps.  Refers to step 1 being the first
 4   step of the historical accounting, to gather data posted to each
 5   account, and then it goes on further in that paragraph to
 6   reference, "the data exist in electronic ledger accounting
 7   systems or paper ledgers that were used to maintain the IIM
 8   accounts."  Did you participate in this work?
 9   A.   Yes.  Our firm was primarily responsible for gathering this
10   data.
11   Q.   Okay.  Could you summarize for the Court just briefly at
12   this point the kind of work that you did in terms of the
13   gathering of the electronic information?
14   A.   Yes.  We received information from two electronic
15   accounting systems.  As I mentioned first, IRMS, the integrated
16   records management system, and TFAS, the trust funds accounting
17   system.
18   Q.   A little bit farther down on that same page of AR 5-65, it
19   has a step 2.  We've highlighted a couple of sentences there.
20   It refers to a second step in the historical accounting:  "To
21   conduct reconciliation of transactions to determine their
22   accuracy."  Have you been involved in that part of the
23   historical accounting?
24   A.   Yes, I have.
25   Q.   Could you summarize briefly for the Court the nature of
0439
 1   your work on that step of it?
 2   A.   Our firm was one of the firms that was tasked with a
 3   component of the accounting, the litigation support accounting.
 4   We reconciled both sample transactions as well as some of the
 5   transactions that were over a hundred thousand dollars.
 6   Q.   Okay.  So you looked at both some things that had been
 7   picked out as samples of transactions and some that were from
 8   the high-dollar transactions?
 9   A.   That's correct.
10   Q.   And other accounting firms assisted with other
11   reconciled -- identified -- reconciling transactions?
12   A.   Yes, they did.  The work was broken out by region and then
13   assigned to the firms.
14   Q.   If you look also on that step 2 of the plan, it identifies
15   doing a reconciliation, which we've just identified, and we'll
16   come back to each one of these things in a little bit more
17   detail, just to show the Court what's involved in those steps
18   and the kind of work that you did.
19        But it also mentions that, in step 2, the step includes
20   "examining the accounting system and land records systems for
21   completeness of the data system" -- "the data the systems
22   contain, the accuracy of the data, how well the systems
23   functioned."  Did you play any role in that aspect of step 2?
24   A.   Yes.  Our work primarily focused on the financial systems,
25   not the land systems.
0440
 1   Q.   So you were looking at the financial transactions.
 2   A.   Yes, we were.
 3   Q.   Did you play any role in the development of tests for how
 4   the OHTA would analyze those transactions?
 5   A.   Yes, I did.
 6   Q.   Go to the next slide, please.  I'd like to have you look at
 7   another page a little bit over on the plan also, identifying --
 8   summarizing step 3 of the historical accounting project.  Step
 9   3, the plan refers to after gathering the transaction data,
10   reconciling, other tests being performed, the Interior would be
11   in a position to prepare the HSAs.  What do you understand HSA
12   to be?
13   A.   Historical statement of account.
14   Q.   Have you had any role in step 3 as described there in the
15   plan?
16   A.   Yes, I have.
17   Q.   Could you just summarize for the Court what your role has
18   been in that regard?
19   A.   I created the draft statements that were provided to the
20   Court.
21   Q.   Those are, as far as you know, marked as evidence for this
22   hearing?
23   A.   That's my understanding.
24   Q.   And you're prepared to talk about those and go through
25   those with the Court?
0441
 1   A.   Yes, I am.
 2   Q.   All right.  Farther down on that same page 7, there's a
 3   reference to Interior evaluating the accuracy of the accounts by
 4   combination of, one, transaction-by-transaction reconciliation
 5   methods, all transactions, certain account types; number 2,
 6   reconciling high-dollar value transactions; and reconciling a
 7   statistical sample of lower dollar value transactions.  And I
 8   take it from your testimony you've been involved in those
 9   various steps?
10   A.   We've not participated in the account-by-account
11   transactions, which is typically the judgment and per capita
12   accounts.
13   Q.   So FTI has not been involved in the judgment and per capita
14   account reconciliation?
15   A.   No, we have not.
16   Q.   The reconciliation you've been involved in has been in the
17   high dollar value?
18   A.   Yes.
19   Q.   And some of the sample transactions.
20   A.   Correct.
21   Q.   Go to the next slide, please.  Go to page 10 of the 2007
22   plan.  There's a reference and a description on page 10 to
23   accounting methodology for a transaction-by-transaction
24   reconciliation of the per capita and judgment accounts.  And
25   that's the one area you have not worked on?
0442
 1   A.   Correct.
 2   Q.   Go to the next page.  Page 12 of the 2007 plan.  And under
 3   the heading of "Statistical samplings," second paragraph there,
 4   refers to "advantages of a statistical sampling approach are
 5   enhanced when combined with other techniques.  For this reason
 6   Interior's using both transaction-by-transaction reconciliation
 7   methods for large dollar value transactions as a certainty
 8   stratum of account values, and statistical methods to address
 9   the huge number of smaller value transactions."  Have you been
10   involved in that analysis?
11   A.   Yes, I have.
12   Q.   Just slide down the page.  On that same page, under the
13   heading "Litigation Support Accounting," there's a discussion of
14   litigation support accounting.  Do you -- have you been involved
15   in that work?
16   A.   Yes, I have.
17   Q.   Can you explain for the Court and for the record what
18   litigation support accounting is?
19   A.   Two different components of the litigation support
20   accounting.  One were all transactions that were greater or
21   equal to a hundred thousand dollars, both credits and debits.
22   And the second was a sample of transactions in the land-based
23   accounts, and those transactions were allocated among the
24   various accounting firms, and each one of the teams reconciled
25   the transactions back to the supporting financial documents and
0443
 1   realty documents and ownership documents.
 2   Q.   Okay.  So that's one of the categories of your work on the
 3   historical accounting?
 4   A.   Yes, it is.
 5   Q.   And on page 13 I have a couple of questions, another couple
 6   highlighted sections.  Under the heading "Paper Era
 7   Transactions," the plan mentions that "approximately 65,000 of
 8   nearly 268,000 land-based IIM accounts and historical accounting
 9   population were opened prior to electronic ledger era."  Before
10   electronic ledger era, that is the paper era, correct?
11   A.   Correct.
12   Q.   And have you played a role in analyzing any information
13   from the paper ledger era?
14   A.   Yes, we have.
15   Q.   Can you briefly summarize to the Court what you have done
16   with respect to the paper ledger era?
17   A.   We have started to identify transactions that will need to
18   be rekeyed to the transaction ledger.  We've started to identify
19   accounts that go back to the paper ledger era, and have actually
20   started entering those transactions at this point.
21   Q.   Okay.  What do you mean by rekeyed?  What's involved in
22   that?
23   A.   Obviously, by definition the transactions are only
24   available on paper, and in order to make them available on a
25   historical statement, those transactions are data entered back
0444
 1   into a database for analysis.
 2   Q.   Where is the information found to reenter them?
 3   A.   Depending on the time frame, either in IRMS transaction
 4   registers or on an actual hard copy ledger card.
 5   Q.   If you go down one paragraph on that same page of the plan,
 6   the paragraph starts with "through data completeness validation
 7   project described below, Interior is identifying all the
 8   land-based IIM accounts in the historical accounting population
 9   that were opened in the paper ledger era prior to 1985."  Have
10   you had involvement in that project?
11   A.   Yes, I have.
12   Q.   Go to the next slide, please.  And going in a few pages
13   more to page 17 of the 2007 plan, and under the heading at the
14   top of the page there, you see that, Ms. Herman?
15   A.   Yes, I do.
16   Q.   "IIM trust fund and related system data tests."  It
17   mentions that "Interior's performing various tests on the IIM
18   trust fund at the aggregate level in addition to those tests
19   performed at the individual transaction or account level."  Do
20   you have an understanding of what that sentence is referring to
21   in terms of the tests you've been involved with?
22   A.   Yes.  This is referring to the system tests that we're
23   running against the IRMS and TFAS data.
24   Q.   And if you look down the next paragraph, there's a series
25   of bullet points.  It refers to there being -- "identify areas
0445
 1   of vulnerability in historical ledgers," and it talks about --
 2   do you have an understanding of what these vulnerabilities are,
 3   describe what they mean for the Court?
 4   A.   Yes.  The first is referring to gaps in the electronic
 5   ledger, so you need to confirm whether or not there are
 6   transactions that are missing in the electronic ledger before
 7   you can issue historical statements.
 8   Q.   Have you worked on that kind of problem?
 9   A.   Yes, I have.
10   Q.   How about the next one, account balances were lost or
11   inappropriately dropped from systems.
12   A.   Yes.  The first test that we performed was evaluating the
13   transfer of accounts and balances from the IRMS system to the
14   TFAS system, and we've actually completed that test, and we've
15   just begun our test of the transfer from the ledger cards into
16   the IRMS system.
17   Q.   Okay.  So if I can get a better picture of what you're
18   doing on that, is, are you comparing the information on the new
19   system against the old system to see if they match?
20   A.   Yes.  You compare the ending balance in the IRMS system,
21   for instance, to the beginning balance in the TFAS system, to
22   confirm that the two are the same.
23   Q.   Okay.  And for the IRMS to the TFAS conversion, that part
24   of it's been completed?
25   A.   Yes, it has.
0446
 1   Q.   But you're still working on the paper to the IRMS?
 2   A.   Yes, we are.
 3   Q.   The third vulnerability in this bullet point list in the
 4   plan refers to calculation of interest being performed
 5   accurately.  Can you describe what that refers to?
 6   A.   This is going to be a comparison of the interest that was
 7   posted to an individual account, versus the interest that should
 8   have been posted based on the historical rules that were in
 9   place at each point in time.
10   Q.   Do you have involvement in the tests being performed to
11   examine the interest calculation?
12   A.   No, I do not.
13   Q.   What firm is involved in the interest calculation work?
14   A.   Clifton Gunderson.
15   Q.   That's one of the other contracting -- accounting firms
16   under contract to the Department of the Interior?
17   A.   Yes, they are.
18   Q.   The fourth bullet point here refers to vulnerability of
19   monies collected by Interior that were actually deposited into
20   the IIM trust fund.  What does that refer to?
21   A.   This is a test going from the land records into the
22   accounting records.  So you start with the land, you re-create a
23   revenue history of that land, and then you determine whether or
24   not the funds that should have been collected were collected.
25   Q.   Have there been tests developed to look at that aspect,
0447
 1   that vulnerability?
 2   A.   Yes, there have.
 3   Q.   Have you participated in those tests?
 4   A.   Yes, I have.
 5   Q.   And the last vulnerability refers to land ownership records
 6   being fit for use in the historical accounting.  Can you
 7   describe your understanding of that vulnerability to the Court?
 8   A.   The land ownership records are utilized in the litigation
 9   support accounting to test the allocation of the funds that were
10   collected, and so this was a test of the LRIS system to
11   determine whether or not it was adequate for use in that LSA
12   effort.
13   Q.   Has that been looked at to your knowledge?
14   A.   Yes, it has.
15   Q.   Have you been involved in that aspect?
16   A.   No, I have not.
17   Q.   Do you know what contractor or other firm was involved?
18   A.   NORC.
19   Q.   A little bit farther down on that same page of the plan,
20   page 17, it refers to having land title records officer, LTRO
21   test.  Did you have any involvement in the LTRO test?
22   A.   No.  This is the test that was executed by NORC.
23   Q.   The next item on that same page at the very bottom is the
24   data completeness validation or DCV.  Did you have involvement
25   in the data completeness validation work?
0448
 1   A.   Yes, I did.
 2   Q.   Okay.  Let's go to the next page.  Page 18.  The plan at
 3   the second full paragraph describes the DCV project, it says is
 4   mapping debit and credit transactions within and between the
 5   IRMS and TFAS systems.  Could you give the Court a brief
 6   description of the two systems that are referenced there, the
 7   IRMS and the TFAS?  You mentioned IRMS, but could you describe
 8   the relationship between the two systems?
 9   A.   Of course.  IRMS was the first system in the electronic
10   ledger era.
11   Q.   Do you know what the -- do you remember what the
12   abbreviation stands for?
13   A.   Integrated records management system.
14   Q.   And the TFAS?
15   A.   TFAS is the trust fund accounting system, and it's the
16   current system.
17   Q.   And as part of your work in analyzing the data from these
18   systems, did you obtain any data from the IRMS?
19   A.   We have electronic data from IRMS from approximately
20   February of 1985 through March of 2000.
21   Q.   What kind of data did you collect from IRMS?
22   A.   We collected two primary types of data, transaction al data
23   and account-level data.
24   Q.   Was this from a particular subsystem of the IRMS system?
25   A.   Yes.  It was from the IIM subsystem.
0449
 1   Q.   Did, as far as you know, every agency, region within the
 2   Department of the Interior use the IIM subsystem?
 3   A.   That's my understanding.
 4   Q.   Was the IRMS a centralized computer system?
 5   A.   No, it was not.
 6   Q.   How was it set up?
 7   A.   IRMS was run on a regional level.
 8   Q.   And how many regions are there presently in Interior?
 9   A.   12.
10   Q.   So if that same regional structure carried back in time,
11   there should be 12 regional IRMS sets of records?
12   A.   Yes, there were.
13   Q.   How do you know that these records exist?
14   A.   We were provided approximately 56 million transactions in
15   the transactional file for IRMS.
16   Q.   When you say "we," are you referring to --
17   A.   I'm sorry, FTI, yes.
18   Q.   What did you do with these 56 million pieces of information
19   that you obtained?
20   A.   We loaded them into a database program referred to as SQL
21   server.
22   Q.   For what purpose were you creating this other data base?
23   A.   To analyze the completeness of the historical transactions
24   provided.
25   Q.   The database that you used to conduct that examination, is
0450
 1   that connected to the Internet in any way?
 2   A.   No, it is not.
 3   Q.   How do you access it?
 4   A.   Through a local private network in our offices.
 5   Q.   In addition to the transactional information, what other
 6   account information did you obtain from IRMS?
 7   A.   We received information from something referred to as a
 8   master file, and the master file contains account-level data, so
 9   an account number, an account name, an address, balance
10   information for that account, at different periods of time.
11   Q.   Okay.  In addition to the master file, did you also
12   obtain -- what were the transaction files called that you
13   obtained?
14   A.   The transaction files initially were stored in two
15   different files.  One is referred to as an ITRAN file, or an
16   immediate transaction file, and one is referred to as a HISTRAN
17   file, or a history transaction file.
18   Q.   For the IRMS, approximately when was that phased out in
19   favor of TFAS?
20   A.   The conversion was phased between August of 1998 and March
21   of 2000.
22   Q.   And which system runs and records IIM transactions today
23   for Interior?
24   A.   TFAS.
25   Q.   I have a couple other highlighted sentences on page 18 of
0451
 1   the plan.  The first one, from one of the middle paragraphs
 2   after the bullet points, mentions that the project, the DCV
 3   project you've just described, in part implements the electronic
 4   data gaps and system conversion tests described in the 2003
 5   plan.
 6        Can you describe your understanding of what that's
 7   referring to?
 8   A.   The data gaps test was the assessment of whether or not the
 9   IRMS record was complete.  And the system conversion test was
10   referring to the conversion from IRMS to TFAS.
11   Q.   And it's my understanding from your testimony you've been
12   involved in both of those?
13   A.   Yes.  I designed the tests.
14   Q.   In the next paragraph you have one more highlighted
15   sentence.  Refers to DCV project also reviewing all changes to
16   account numbers, to ensure that all transactions for an
17   individual's account are accurately reflected in the HSA.
18        Can you describe your understanding of what that sentence
19   is referring to?
20   A.   There are several different account level tests that we
21   perform on the data.  The first is to identify accounts that may
22   have been reused over time.  The second is to identify account
23   number changes that have happened over time, such that all of
24   the transactions for a given account are reflected on a
25   statement correctly.
0452
 1   Q.   Why is it important to understand whether an account number
 2   has been reused?  What difference does that make to the
 3   accounting?
 4   A.   In terms of the accounting, the importance is really in
 5   issuing the historical statement, because you don't want to
 6   provide one account holder's information to a second account
 7   holder.
 8             THE COURT:  How is that possible that an account is
 9   reused?
10             THE WITNESS:  Unfortunately, historically, once an
11   account had been closed, occasionally the account number became
12   available for use again.  So now when we look back in time, we
13   can see that the account started out let's say in my name,
14   Michelle, and then switched and later turned to Michael's name.
15   And so the balance would have gone to zero under my name and
16   would have reopened again under Michael's name.
17             MR. QUINN:  Not that there's actually an account like
18   that for us, Your Honor.
19             THE COURT:  No, I understand.  It's like the numbers
20   weren't retired, like Mickey Mantle's number.
21             THE WITNESS:  Exactly.
22             MR. QUINN:  And we actually have some examples we
23   could put up on the screen to show you, if you like.
24             THE COURT:  Understood.
25   BY MR. QUINN:
0453
 1   Q.   To just finish the overview of your data collection
 2   efforts, you collected information from IRMS, you mentioned.
 3   Did you also collect data from TFAS?
 4   A.   Yes, we did.  We have data from the beginning of the TFAS
 5   system through July of 2007 at this point.
 6   Q.   Were there other computer systems that Interior used that
 7   you looked at or gathered certain pieces of information for to
 8   aid your analysis?
 9   A.   Yes.  We looked at the LRIS system in connection with our
10   LSA project, and we also looked at, to a lesser degree, the
11   TAAMS system in connection with our account number analyses.
12   Q.   Could you describe what the LRIS system is?
13   A.   The LRIS system was the historical system that tracked
14   title.
15   Q.   Does it stand for land records information system?
16   A.   Yes, it does.
17   Q.   To your understanding, what role did LRIS play in
18   administering IIM information?
19   A.   LRIS was the system that tracked the title for each
20   individual allotment, and to some extent the encumbrances on
21   that title.
22   Q.   And you collected some information off of LRIS?
23   A.   We only collected information for the accounts that had
24   been assigned to us in the sampling in the LSA project.
25   Q.   As part of the reconciliation effort you looked at that?
0454
 1   A.   Exactly.
 2   Q.   And not as part of the data completeness validation work.
 3   A.   No.
 4   Q.   The data completeness validation being tied more directly
 5   to the transactional information.
 6   A.   To the financial transactions.
 7   Q.   Could you describe briefly for the Court what TAAMS is?
 8   A.   TAAMS is the current system that tracks title and also
 9   realty for Interior.
10   Q.   Did you obtain for any of your analyses any information
11   from TAAMS?
12   A.   We obtained some information on account holders, dates of
13   birth, dates of death, things of that nature, and occasionally
14   some what are referred to as tract history reports, THRs.
15   Q.   And all this data that you've collected, has this all been
16   put into your FTI database?
17   A.   Yes, it has.
18   Q.   Okay.  Let's talk a little bit more specifically about the
19   analysis of data that you've been involved with.  I'd like to
20   direct your attention to the data completeness validation
21   because you just finished some major effort with that analysis.
22   Did you at FTI produce a report with respect to the data
23   completeness validation work you've done recently?
24   A.   Yes, we've produced seven reports, actually.
25   Q.   Could you describe what the reports consist of?
0455
 1   A.   The first is an overall report that shows our progress to
 2   date on analyzing all 12 regions.  And the next six reports are
 3   one report per region of the six, with our 12 obviously that
 4   we'll issue at the end of the day, but the first six that we've
 5   performed our work on.
 6   Q.   Okay.  So you have an overall report that covers work
 7   that's gone on across the country?
 8   A.   Yes.
 9   Q.   And then another six separate, more detailed, regional
10   reports?
11   A.   Yes.  That chronicle our findings for that particular
12   region.
13   Q.   Does that mean you're finished looking at those regions?
14   A.   We will most likely look at those regions again as we move
15   on to the final six regions.  Occasionally as you look at later
16   regions it impacts earlier regions.
17   Q.   You find things that cause you to go back and look at
18   something you did before?
19   A.   Yes.
20   Q.   And how did you select the six regions to report on.
21   A.   The first three regions were selected -- we started this
22   project looking from the conversion from IRMS to TFAS, and the
23   first three regions that were selected were the first three
24   regions that converted from IRMS to TFAS.  The next three
25   regions were selected because of the number of accounts in those
0456
 1   regions, in an effort to evaluate regions with the most accounts
 2   first.
 3   Q.   Okay.  Any chance you've left out the six most problematic
 4   ones for later?
 5   A.   We're going to report on those six in the coming years.
 6   Q.   Could we go to the next slide?
 7             THE COURT:  I'm not sure that answer was responsive,
 8   and I'd like to hear what the answer is.
 9             THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honor.  As you'll see in the
10   overall report, we reported on all 12 regions our findings so
11   far.  It's simply a matter of time to get to all 12.
12             THE COURT:  I know, but his question was how did you
13   select the first six and are the last six the most problematic
14   ones.
15             THE WITNESS:  The first six were the largest ones, so
16   I wouldn't suspect that the last six will be more problematic
17   than the first six.  It's just a matter of taking the time to
18   evaluate them.
19             THE COURT:  Thank you.
20             MR. QUINN:  Thank you, Your Honor.
21   BY MR. QUINN:
22   Q.   Let's finish up with the plan and we can go and discuss
23   more specifically the data completeness analysis.  There are two
24   other test areas mentioned in the 2007 plan.  At page 19 there's
25   a posting test, landed dollars test.  Have you had involvement
0457
 1   with the posting, landed dollars test?
 2   A.   Yes, I have.
 3   Q.   And there's also a mention of a test, interest
 4   recalculation.  And you testified about interest work being done
 5   by another firm, but I just want to confirm for the record here
 6   with the Judge whether you have involvement with the interest
 7   recalculation work.
 8   A.   No, I do not.
 9   Q.   And that's being done by?
10   A.   Clifton Gunderson.
11   Q.   Ms. Herman, I put up in front of you a document marked for
12   identification as Defendants' Exhibit 152, and ask you if you
13   can identify that document for the record, at least by looking
14   at its cover.
15   A.   This is the cover to the binder that contains our overall
16   report.
17   Q.    Electronically this entire set of reports fits onto one
18   CD, but when you have it printed out, it looks something like
19   this binder, at least one volume?
20   A.   Yes, it does.
21   Q.   Do you know approximately -- when you take the overall
22   report pages and the regional report pages, approximately how
23   many pages the report is?
24   A.   Just over 10,000 pages.
25   Q.   Could you describe for the Court the overall goal of the
0458
 1   data completeness validation work?
 2   A.   There's several goals to the data validation.  The first
 3   and foremost is to assess the completeness of the electronic
 4   ledger era for historical statements, and when I mention
 5   completeness, it's of the data today versus the data as posted
 6   historically.
 7   Q.   We had discussed a little bit about reused accounts and
 8   account number information.  Can you describe how that is -- how
 9   account numbers are examined as part of the data completeness
10   analysis?
11   A.   Yes.  Account names, the account holder's name is
12   associated in several different places in the electronic data.
13   As I mentioned earlier, you have within IRMS two primary files,
14   the master file and the transactional file.  So the account
15   holder name is stored in the master file but it's also stored on
16   every record in the transactional file.
17        And in TFAS, the account holder name is associated only
18   with the account file.  So we've taken all of these records and
19   we've aggregated them into one singular file for analysis
20   purposes.
21   Q.   Could you describe for the Court the steps involved in
22   undertaking the analysis, what it was you were looking at with
23   the name information?
24   A.   We wanted to determine whether or not accounts had been
25   reused historically.  As I mentioned earlier, we didn't want to
0459
 1   issue statements to one beneficiary with transactions that may
 2   pertain to another beneficiary.  So we compared all of the names
 3   that had ever been associated with the accounts in the
 4   electronic data to evaluate whether or not an account had more
 5   than one name associated with it.
 6   Q.   When you say all the electronic data, what date range are
 7   you speaking of?
 8   A.   All of our analyses cover the entire electronic time frame,
 9   so it begins in 1985 through 2007, and we receive new data each
10   month from OST.
11   Q.   Does your name account investigation look at more
12   information, more accounts than the accounting population that's
13   been made part of the scope of the historical accounting
14   project?
15   A.   Yes, it does.
16   Q.   Does it look at every account that's been opened with some
17   name from 1985 through the present?
18   A.   Yes, it does.
19   Q.   Do you know approximately how many unique account names
20   you've come across?
21   A.   We've evaluated approximately 645,000 accounts.  I don't
22   know how many unique names are associated with those.
23   Q.   Could you describe for the Court the process by which you
24   identify unique accounts and make that information traceable by
25   the Office of Historical Accounting?
0460
 1   A.   We've assigned a number to each account that we refer to as
 2   a NAAN.
 3   Q.   A NAAN?
 4   A.   A NAAN.  N-A-A-N.
 5   Q.   What does a NAAN stand for?
 6   A.   Native American account number.
 7   Q.   Could you describe for the Court what the significance is
 8   of a NAAN to the historical accounting process?
 9   A.   When we issue statements, that's going to be the identifier
10   for issuing statements.  As we mentioned earlier, because
11   account numbers can be reused over time, we can't use the
12   account number itself for issuing statements.  And historically,
13   it was possible to also change account numbers over time.
14        So if you were to simply use the account number itself, you
15   wouldn't be able to pull all of the related transactions.  And
16   so this is an identifier that we've created to be able to pull
17   all of the transactions related to an account.
18   Q.   So if the NAANs are assigned properly, then you can
19   identify that unique account information?
20   A.   Yes, you can.
21   Q.   Is there another set of number -- codes that you developed
22   and assigned to aid that process?
23   A.   Yes.  The other code that we developed is referred to as an
24   NABN.
25   Q.   What does that stand for?
0461
 1   A.   Native American beneficiary number.
 2   Q.   Could you describe for the Court what the difference is
 3   between a NAAN and a NABN?
 4   A.   Just like many of us, if you have more than one account, an
 5   NABN could be associated with multiple NAANs.  So you could have
 6   one person with multiple accounts or multiple NAANs.
 7   Q.   What's the purpose of the NABN then?
 8   A.   We use that number in several of our analyses.  But in
 9   terms of the historical statement, it allows us to pull the most
10   current address for an individual in the hopes that we can mail
11   the statement to a current address.
12   Q.   Let's talk about this, because some of the data that's in
13   the data completeness reports that you prepared uses a term that
14   has a slightly different meaning as some of us have used it here
15   in court, and that term is through-put.  This is again marked
16   for identification Defendant's Exhibit 152 at page 15.  If you
17   could zoom in on that table.
18        Could you identify, first of all, for us, Ms. Herman, what
19   this document is that we're looking at right now?
20   A.   This is an excerpt from our overall report.
21   Q.   This is the narrative text that appears in the first part
22   of the report?
23   A.   Yes, it is.
24   Q.   And there's a table there, and ahead of that table, above
25   it, is a paragraph describing the term "through-put."  Could you
0462
 1   describe for the Court what the term "through-put" means as it
 2   relates to the data completeness analysis?
 3   A.   Through-put in terms of the data completeness analysis
 4   looks at every single credit transaction and every debit
 5   transaction in the system.  And so in this instance you're going
 6   to add up every transaction and that's going to equal
 7   through-put.
 8   Q.   Why do you do that?  What's the purpose of doing that?
 9   A.   We trace the flow of funds in the system, and so in order
10   to measure the amount of work that we're doing, this is how we
11   look at the data.
12   Q.   So with your use of "through-put," then, you're marking
13   every bookkeeping entry --
14   A.   Yes.
15   Q.   -- as it goes through?  Could you describe -- you have a
16   table there on the pages up on the screen on page 15.  Could you
17   walk through that example for the Court?
18   A.   Yes.  This example is of a credit coming into a special
19   deposit account, an SDA.
20   Q.   What is an SDA?
21   A.   An SDA is a temporary holding account.
22   Q.   So a collection to an SDA could be what?  What examples
23   that you've encountered?
24   A.   Lease collection, for instance.
25   Q.   Money paid in on a lease?
0463
 1   A.   Exactly.
 2   Q.   Go ahead with your --
 3   A.   So in this example you would have a credit in of a hundred
 4   dollars, let's say a lease payment, and then a transfer of that
 5   hundred dollars to the beneficial owners, to the individual
 6   Indian accounts.  So you'd have a debit out of a hundred dollars
 7   and a credit into those individual accounts of a hundred
 8   dollars.  And then the final line in that chart is the
 9   associated debit out of that same $100.
10   Q.   So for this one $100, unique $100 amount of money, how much
11   through-put is calculated in your example?
12   A.   In this example we would consider this $400 of through-put.
13   Q.   So when you speak of through-put in connection with the
14   data completeness validation, you're talking about adding up --
15   every time that hundred dollars flows through another pot in the
16   system, it gets counted.
17   A.   Exactly.
18   Q.   Do you have an understanding of how "through-put" has been
19   discussed here in the courtroom in a different sense?
20   A.   Yes, I do.
21   Q.   Okay.  Could you describe your understanding of this other
22   use of the term "through-put"?
23   A.   It's my understanding that it's of initial collection into
24   the system and disbursements from the system.
25   Q.   So in this latter use of the term, do you have an
0464
 1   understanding it's about money flowing into and then -- received
 2   into, and then disbursed out of the system?
 3   A.   Exactly.
 4   Q.   Would you expect the two through-put numbers to measure up
 5   against each other in the same way?
 6   A.   No.  In this example, for instance, if you were looking at
 7   the through-put as defined the second way, it would be $200, not
 8   $400.
 9             THE COURT:  That's not the way I look at it.  I think
10   you've got $100 of through-put.  That's my --
11             MR. QUINN:  Cash flow, Your Honor.
12             THE WITNESS:  Well, a hundred dollar collection, yes.
13             THE COURT:  I'm just interested in how much money has
14   flowed through the system from the intake end to the output end.
15             MR. QUINN:  I understand, Your Honor.  I want to
16   clarify this, if we go back to read any of the reports, which we
17   hope you will, on the data completeness, that you not be thrown
18   by any of the numbers that appear there.
19             THE COURT:  I'm just glad that Ms. Herman doesn't work
20   for the IRS and call all those taxable events.
21        (Laughter)
22             THE WITNESS:  Me too.
23   BY MR. QUINN:
24   Q.   You testified about reused accounts and account number
25   changes.  What other tests have been done as part of the DCV?
0465
 1   A.   Another one the tests we've performed is on transfers and
 2   reversals.  We refer to it as transaction mapping.
 3   Q.   Are there other tests that you've gone through, other
 4   checks?
 5   A.   Yes.  We have evaluated disbursements and looking at those
 6   relative to the Treasury records, we've evaluated accounts in
 7   terms of whether or not the account and the balance in the
 8   account agree.
 9   Q.   If you could give the Court a sense of the level of effort
10   that FTI, people who work with you on the DCV, have had to
11   expend in analyzing this data.
12   A.   Typically, our team ranges from 10 individuals to 45, but
13   in a given year in excess of 50,000 man-hours.
14   Q.   50,000 hours in a year spent?
15   A.   Yes.
16   Q.   In your experience on the data completeness?  Is that for
17   just your firm?
18   A.   That's only our firm.
19   Q.   And I take it there are other firms that have assisted with
20   this work?
21   A.   Yes.  As I mentioned earlier, in many instances we need to
22   turn to hard-copy documentation, so there's a firm stationed in
23   the AIRR in Lenexa that searches for those documents, and once
24   they're identified, they also have to be imaged and coded.
25   Q.   And there are other contracting firms that provide those
0466
 1   services?
 2   A.   Yes, there are.
 3   Q.   Do you request a lot of documents as part of your analysis?
 4   A.   Our first step is to try to resolve these issues using the
 5   electronic data, but yes, we've requested probably in excess of
 6   85,000 documents.
 7   Q.   Do you know how many documents you presently are waiting to
 8   hear back on at the AIRR?
 9   A.   Between 30- and 35,000.
10   Q.   30- and 35,000 documents as part of the ongoing work on the
11   data completeness?
12   A.   Yes.  There are 20 searchers devoted to our project.
13   Q.   Ms. Herman, do you recognize this chart?
14   A.   Yes.  It's an excerpt from our overall report.
15   Q.   From the September 30, 2007, report?
16   A.   Yes, it is.
17   Q.   Can you describe for the Court what this chart reveals
18   about the data you've looked at?
19   A.   The blue colors on the chart are the number of transactions
20   in each one of the buckets reflected on the bottom of the chart,
21   and the green bars are the dollars associated with the
22   transactions.
23   Q.   So in the zero to $1 range, that first bar graph, what is
24   that telling you?
25   A.   There are 9.1 million non-interest credits in that bucket.
0467
 1   Q.   And the dollar value associated with those 9 million
 2   transactions is?
 3   A.   2.6 million.
 4   Q.   If you move down to the larger transactions, the last
 5   chart -- the last bar graph on your chart, the $10,000 and above
 6   transactions, what does that indicate?
 7   A.   There's 60,000 transactions -- and now I need bigger
 8   glasses -- I believe that's 4 billion.
 9   Q.   4 billion something in dollar value, right?
10   A.   Yes.
11   Q.   Now, this chart that you prepared, does that correlate
12   directly to the accounting population that's part of the plan?
13   A.   No, it does not.
14   Q.   This covers a broader data set?
15   A.   Yes, it does.
16   Q.   Everything that you've looked at from 1985 forward?
17   A.   This goes from '85 through 2000, but it includes
18   land-based, judgment, per capita, special deposit, all of the
19   accounts in the system.
20   Q.   Could you describe what this little table you have below
21   the chart is -- what information it's conveying about the
22   makeup, composition of the data set?
23   A.   This is summarizing the percentage of transactions and the
24   associated percentage of dollars in each stratum that was
25   represented on the chart.  So that as you can see, most of the
0468
 1   transactions in the system are very small in dollar amount.
 2   Q.   If I read this right, 88 and a half percent of all
 3   transactions are below that hundred dollar, at or below?
 4   A.   Of the non-interest credits, yes.
 5   Q.   When you say non-interest credits, why is that the
 6   definition you're using for purposes of this data presentation?
 7   A.   I didn't want the chart to be skewed by the interest
 8   transactions, which may be lower in dollar value.
 9   Q.   And for this data set, for dollar transactions over a
10   hundred thousand dollars, what did you find in terms of how
11   they're represented in this data set?
12   A.   Very few transactions make up the majority of the money in
13   the system.
14   Q.   Now, the totals here, can you explain what they relate to,
15   what they represent?
16   A.   Again, this is non-interest credits between 1985 and 2000.
17   Q.   And this is all types of credits to all types of accounts?
18   A.   Correct.  So it includes special deposit accounts, judgment
19   accounts, land-based accounts.
20   Q.   Defendants' Exhibit 152, that's the overall report, the
21   actual report?
22   A.   Yes, it is.
23   Q.   I'd like to walk you briefly through -- let's go to the
24   next page.  Could you describe -- this is Defendants' Exhibit
25   153.  Could you identify this document for the record, please?
0469
 1   A.   This is the cover to our Alaska region report.
 2   Q.   One of the six regional reports you issued in September?
 3   A.   Yes, it is.
 4             THE COURT:  You say you're going to walk through each
 5   of them?
 6             MR. QUINN:  I'm just going to identify them for the
 7   record, Your Honor, unless you'd just like me to move them into
 8   evidence.
 9             THE COURT:  Well, I assume you've got a good ways to
10   go with this.
11             MR. QUINN:  I don't think we'll finish in the next 15
12   or hour.
13             THE COURT:  Let's break for the evening then.  It's
14   after our regular quitting time.  We'll be in recess until 9:30
15   tomorrow morning.  Thank you very much.  Have a pleasant
16   evening.
17        And I don't think you need to introduce each one of them.
18   Just introduce them.  There's six reports?
19             MR. QUINN:  Tomorrow's Friday.  We're not holding
20   court tomorrow?
21             THE COURT:  Lost my head.
22             MR. QUINN:  I was lost in the moment, Your Honor.  I
23   didn't even realize.
24             THE COURT:  Monday morning.  Monday morning.
25        (Proceedings adjourned at 5:03 p.m.)
0470
 1                                 INDEX
 2   WITNESS:                                                 PAGE:
 3   
      Katherine Ramirez      Direct Examination Continued...... 339
 4                           Cross-Examination................. 396
      Michelle Herman        Direct Examination................ 434
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0471
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 6                           *  *  *  *  *  *
 7   
 8                              CERTIFICATE
 9   
10        I, BRYAN A. WAYNE, Official Court Reporter, certify that
11   
12   the foregoing pages are a correct transcript from the record of
13   
14   proceedings in the above-entitled matter.
15   
16                       __________________
17                       BRYAN A. WAYNE