From - Tue May 19 16:34:46 1998
Message-Id: <0000190F@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:14 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: FW: 2 Letter TLDs -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:09 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: FW: 2 Letter TLDs -Forwarded
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>
Cc: "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: FW: 2 Letter TLDs
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 03:05:18 -0500
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----------
From:     Jim Fleming[SMTP:JimFleming]
Sent:     Saturday, May 02, 1998 3:00 AM
To:  DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET
Subject:  2 Letter TLDs

On Friday, May 01, 1998 6:28 PM, Antony Van Couvering[SMTP:avc@NETNAMESUSA.=
COM] wrote:
<snip>
@
@There are many domains, both generic and national, that are run as
@commercial operations.  In the case of national domains, each government
@has empowered a group to set policy and to provide technical services.

Some 2 letter TLDs were delegated by the IANA around the time
that the InterNIC started charging for .COM/.NET/.ORG names.
This was in the late Summer and early Fall of 1995.

The delegations were given to anyone remotely interested in the
country in question. In some cases, the people are not even in
the country unless you think Texas is in the Middle East.

Some business people have used these delegations to avoid paying
the $50/yr InterNIC "taxes". They can appeal to local companies with
names of the form, www.<name>.<tld>. They run the DNS Registry
as a part-time task with less resources and expertise than most ISPs.
Despite these facts, they are listed in the legacy Root Name Servers
controlled by the U.S. Government.

In some cases, the government has no involvement in the TLD or registry.
There has not been any empowerment. It is just a simple workaround
to the crowded .COM situation. People place much more significance
on the delegations than the situation warrants.

In some countries the ITU has helped to reinforce the notion that the
2 letter TLDs are sacred. This gives an air of officialness to the whole
affair, because Switzerland is a long way physically and culturally
from many of the small places the 2 letter names reach.

Now, with the artificial shortage of new TLDs, people are mining the
2 letter TLDs. In some cases, they are rapidly becoming generic tags.
This is often the only way to improve the financal value of these TLDs.
Since it appears unlikely that any significant number of new TLDs will
be added by the U.S. Government, the 2 letter TLDs will become more
lucrative and more generic. This may cause the local governments in
those countries to NOW start to take an interest. This may not please
some of the private citizens that have been taking advantage of those
delegations and who have no government endorsement.


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI


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From - Tue May 19 16:34:47 1998
Message-Id: <00001911@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:14 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: FW: Are 2 letter TLDs the property of governments ? -Forwarded
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:10 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: FW: Are 2 letter TLDs the property of governments ? -Forwarded
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>
Cc: "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: FW: Are 2 letter TLDs the property of governments ?
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 08:33:17 -0500
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----------
From:     Jim Fleming[SMTP:JimFleming]
Sent:     Saturday, May 02, 1998 8:28 AM
To:  DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET
Cc:  'Dotty Sparks'; 'editor@vibj.com'; 'jason@ICANECT.NET'; 'jlucas@UVI=
.EDU'; 'Peter deBlanc'; 'rhanscom@USVI.NET'; 'Steven Pitzl'
Subject:  Are 2 letter TLDs the property of governments ?

On Saturday, May 02, 1998 7:29 AM, Bob Allisat[SMTP:bob@WTV.NET] wrote:
@Dave wrote:
@>actually, it is very MUCH like that, if the government associated with =
the
@>ccTLD cares.  IANA will make an assignment absent a directive from that
@>government, but will always defer to the government's directive.
@
@ This is a situation RIPE for abuse.
@ IANA (Jon Postel) becomes sole arbitrer
<snip>
@
@ Solution - do nothing with a so-called
@ national domains until the government
@ itself takes steps to activate their domain.

When you say "their" domain, this implies "they" own it.

Would it not be easier to have a TLD be collectively owned
and governed by the stakeholders registered under it with
<SLD>.<TLD> domains ?

Also, what if a government does not want the silly 2 letter
name that Jon Postel and the ITU decided is best for their
country ?

Wouldn't it be better to let the country select the TLD that
it prefers ? Why restrict it to 2 letters ?

This might be like having Jon Postel and the ITU stating that
a country's flag can be any combination of the colors, red, white
and blue, and can have optional gold stars and is allowed to
have stripes. What if a country comes up with a green flag ?

Why not design systems that allow humans to collectively
be creative as opposed to constrained ?

Why not just admit that 2 letter TLDs are generic and are
preferred by some but not all ? Why not admit that these TLDs
mean different things in different parts of the world ? What
happened to all of the I* people's comments about the Internet
being "International" and crossing geo-political boundaries ?

As an example, there are at least six known uses of the .VI TLD:

     1. .VI - United States Virgin Islands
     2. .VI - British Virgin Islands
     3. .VI - Virgin Islands (generic)
     4. .VI Text Editor Users
     5. .VI - Roman Numeral for 6
     6. .VI - Very Intelligent or Very Important (short for VIP)

Why not have 5 groups of stakeholders assemble a round-table
on the Internet, not in some smoke-filled room, and decide on
the governance of the .VI TLD ? Maybe each group above can
appoint 2 representatives to the .VI Round Table ? That would be
12 people. That might allow diversity in the decision-making.

What is wrong with diversity ? Doesn't the Internet promote that ?


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

http://vi.caribnic.net


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From - Tue May 19 16:34:48 1998
Message-Id: <00001919@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:21 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: Clinton signs bill allowing NSF to spend Infrastructure $$
     -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:11 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: Clinton signs bill allowing NSF to spend Infrastructure $$
     -Forwarded
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Message-ID: <01BD75D4.F2CA4260@dial5.p0.unety.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <com-priv@lists.psi.com>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Don Heath'"
      <heath@isoc.org>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'vinton g. cerf'" <vcerf@MCI.NET>
Subject: RE: Clinton signs bill allowing NSF to spend Infrastructure $$
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 14:16:49 -0500
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On Saturday, May 02, 1998 2:15 PM, James Rishaw[SMTP:jamie@dilbert.ais.net]=
 wrote:
@Statement by the National Science Foundation
@WASHINGTON, May 2 /PRNewswire/ -- The following is a statement by NSF
@spokeswoman Beth Gaston:
@
@ The National Science Foundation is pleased that Congress has enacted, =
and
@the President has signed, a bill which enables the National Science =
Foundation
@(NSF) to use money collected in the domain name Internet Intellectual

<snip>

Maybe some of it will be spent on the IANA Inc. ?
Here are some suggestions on how to divide it.

@@@@ http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/03_23_98-2.htm

1. IP Addresses vs. Domain Names=20
- Reduce the Focus on Domain Names=20
- Increase the Attention on IPv4 Addresses=20
- Merge IANA Corporation and ARIN <http://www.arin.net>=20
2. The Proposed IANA Corporation=20
- Accelerate Schedule Using ARIN's Structure=20
- Phase-out USC-ISI and NSI Personnel=20
- Fund with 20% of the Intellectual Infrastructure Fund=20
3. The US. TLD=20
- Transfer to a COOP of ISOC/CORE/USC-ISI=20
- Require that <STATE>.US be Delegated to State Registries=20
- Encourage the Creation of COM.US.=20
- Fund with 20% of the Intellectual Infrastructure Fund=20
4. The U.S. Government's Root Name Server Cluster=20
- Remove the Servers Outside of the U.S.=20
- Move Remaining Servers to U.S. Government Facilities=20
- Encourage Private Companies to Create RSCs=20
5. Future NSF Funding=20
- Reduce Overall Funding=20
- Restrict NSF from Funding IPv6 (or IPv8)=20
- Restrict NSF from Funding USC-ISI for 10 Years=20
6. InterNIC=20
- Require AT&T to Remain Under Contract Until 2003=20
- Release NSI to Create WorldNIC=20
- Focus on Publishing .COM Information Widely=20
- Fund with 10% of the Intellectual Infrastructure Fund=20
7. Intellectual Infrastructure Fund=20
- Divide the remaining 50% of fund equally between all 50 States=20
- Delegate to Senators and Governors as NSF Grants=20
- Earmark the Funds for US. TLD Registries (see #3 above)=20
- Require the InterNIC Model of (IS, DS and RS) for Funding=20
8. IPv8 Plan Compatibility=20
- The Structured Root supports 2,048 TLDs=20
- IPv8 (and IPv4) addresses managed via TLD Authorities, Not ARIN=20
- Open round table approach grows naturally from a Structured Root=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

http://vi.caribnic.net


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From - Tue May 19 16:34:48 1998
Message-Id: <0000191F@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:22 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: FW: IPv8 .VI Update -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:11 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: FW: IPv8 .VI Update -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>
Cc: "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: FW: IPv8 .VI Update
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 07:45:17 -0500
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----------
From:     Jim Fleming[SMTP:JimFleming@DOORSTEP.UNETY.NET]
Sent:     Sunday, May 03, 1998 7:36 AM
To:  DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET
Subject:  IPv8 .VI Update

At this point in time, Unir is helping to build an IPv8 .VI registry
for the "area" called the Virgin Islands independent of country
boundaries.

More information on Netnames and the IPv4 .VI registry is here...
http://www.netnamesusa.com/country/vi.html

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

http://vi.caribnic.net




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From - Tue May 19 16:34:49 1998
Message-Id: <0000191B@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:27 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: .VI = Virgin Islands ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:13 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: .VI = Virgin Islands ? -Forwarded
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET"
<DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Dotty Sparks'"
      <dsparks@usvi.net>,
        "'editor@vibj.com'" <editor@vibj.com>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'Ivan Pope'" <ivan@NETNAMES.COM>,
        "'jason@ICANECT.NET'"
      <jason@ICANECT.NET>
Cc: "'jlucas@UVI.EDU'" <jlucas@UVI.EDU>,
        "'Peter deBlanc'"
      <pdeblanc@noc.usvi.net>,
        "'Jon Postel'" <postel@ISI.EDU>,
        "'rhanscom@USVI.NET'" <rhanscom@usvi.net>,
        "'Steven Pitzl'"
      <spitzl@usvi.net>,
        "'tld-wg@ripe.net'" <tld-wg@ripe.net>
Cc: "'william@TJNS.TJ'" <william@TJNS.TJ>
Subject: .VI = Virgin Islands ?
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 08:45:35 -0500
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On Saturday, May 02, 1998 9:30 PM, William X. Walsh[SMTP:william@TJNS.TJ] =
wrote:
<snip>
@
@The British Virgin Islands have their OWN 2 letter code, separate and
@unique from the US Virgin Islands code.
@

It makes no sense to carve up country code TLDs
along hard and fast political boundaries. Those boundaries
can change and people will want to continue to use their
domain names. Stability of domain names is one of the
arguments the ITU/ISOC/IAHC/POC/PAB/CORE use to
justify their plan. How can they do that when the IANA
(Jon Postel) plan for country codes does not support that ?

Also, what is the purpose of having country codes if people
ignore the boundaries ?

@@@ http://www.zbvi.vi

"ZBVI is the principal commercial and only "AM" radio station in the =
British Virgin Islands."

@@@@@@@@@@@

Again...just so people are clear...I suggest that a TLD
like .VI should cover the "region" known as the Virgin
Islands and I also suggest that the stakeholders be
the ones that determine the future of the TLD, not the
IANA (Jon Poste). The stakeholders are the <SLD>.VI
owners, in my opinion.
-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

http://vi.caribnic.net


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From - Tue May 19 16:34:49 1998
Message-Id: <0000191D@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:28 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: Are 2 letter TLDs the property of governments ? -Forwarded
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:12 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: Are 2 letter TLDs the property of governments ? -Forwarded
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET"
<DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Dave Crocker'"
      <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>,
        "'Dave Farber'" <farber@cis.upenn.edu>,
        "'Hank Nussbacher'" <hank@ibm.net.il>, "'Don Heath'" <heath@isoc.org>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Cc: "'Jon Postel'" <postel@ISI.EDU>, "'Steve Wolff'" <swolff@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Are 2 letter TLDs the property of governments ?
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 08:05:59 -0500
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On Sunday, May 03, 1998 4:06 AM, Roeland M.J. Meyer[SMTP:rmeyer@MHSC.COM] =
wrote:
<snip>
@>
@>ISO is just a private company. They decide what is a country or not
@>ans IANA defers to their judgements. Quick: which of the collowing are
@>countries: East Timor, Tibet, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Russia, Northern
@>Ireland, Czeckoslovakia, Russia.
@
@This brings up another subject. After the collapse of the Soviet Union,
@there were a whole bunch of new countries. Have they ever been incorporate=
d
@into the ccTLDs? What happens with a ccTLD after the country is either
@fragmented or changes name?
@

This has been brought up many times. The IANA (Jon Postel)
apparently ignores the problems and moves on. The ISOC/IAHC
appears to follow suit. The result is that many of the 2 letter
TLDs are left in a state of confusion. In some cases the governments
to which these TLDs were arbitrarily assigned do not even know
they have a TLD or the value of it.

I think that governments should have been allowed to select the
TLD they prefer and should have been involved in deciding if and
when they wanted one. At the present time, many of the 2 letter
TLDs are controlled by the first person that happened to ask. In
some cases, this person may no longer exist or be involved in
any way with the TLD administration. The IANA and the ISOC
apparently do little or no follow-up.

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

http://vi.caribnic.net


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From - Tue May 19 16:34:50 1998
Message-Id: <00001921@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:28 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: .VI = Virgin Islands ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:14 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: .VI = Virgin Islands ? -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <01BD7675.6A0F9820@dial5.p0.unety.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET"
<DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>
Cc: "'Antitrust List'" <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'Antony Van Couvering'"
      <avc@NETNAMESUSA.COM>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'charles mueller'" <cmueller@metrolink.net>,
        "'Dan_Cohen@ntia.doc.gov'" <Dan_Cohen@ntia.doc.gov>
Cc: "'dnrc-board@domain-name.org'" <dnrc-board@domain-name.org>,
        "'Dotty Sparks'" <dsparks@usvi.net>,
        "'editor@vibj.com'"
      <editor@vibj.com>,
        "'David Farber'" <farber@cis.upenn.edu>,
        "'Hank Nussbacher'" <hank@ibm.net.il>, "'Don Heath'" <heath@isoc.org>
Cc: "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'Ivan Pope'" <ivan@NETNAMES.COM>,
        "'jason@ICANECT.NET'"
      <jason@ICANECT.NET>,
        "'jlucas@UVI.EDU'" <jlucas@UVI.EDU>,
        "'Peter deBlanc'" <pdeblanc@noc.usvi.net>,
        "'Jon Postel'"
      <postel@ISI.EDU>
Cc: "'rhanscom@USVI.NET'" <rhanscom@usvi.net>,
        "'Steven Pitzl'"
      <spitzl@usvi.net>,
        "'Steve Wolff'" <swolff@cisco.com>,
        "'zbvi@caribsurf.com'" <zbvi@caribsurf.com>
Subject: RE: .VI = Virgin Islands ?
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 09:25:28 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Sunday, May 03, 1998 9:04 AM, Richard J. Sexton[SMTP:richard@SEXTON.COM]=
 wrote:
@>@@@ http://www.zbvi.vi
@>
@>"ZBVI is the principal commercial and only "AM" radio station in the =
British Virgin Islands."
@
@Waitta minute. NetNames site said "companies must use .co.vi".
@
@Whats going on here?
@
@I think if I paid thousands of dollars to NetNames to "protect my name"
@and they gave me, say netscape.co.vi, I'd be pretty annoyed if Microsoft
@(say) obtained netscape.vi and put MSIE there.
@
@Good thing the "government sets policy" and NetNames's Antony Van =
Couvering
@stated.
@
@.emacs anybody ?
@
@
@
@--
@Richard J. Sexton       |    Cheap ISDN + T1 feeds.
@richard@vrx.net         |    Creative domain names.
@VRx Network Services,   |    CGI/Database programmer.
@Toronto, Canada         |    Web design with an attitude.
@+1 (613) 473-1719       |    http://richard-resume.vrx.net
@
@

As a web designer, you also have to be concerned.
If you can NOT get names in .VI but other companies
can, then you can not design web sites. Or...your
customers may be forced to get a domain name
via Netnames under co.vi and they may not want that.

Hank Nussbacher over in Israel (not Illinois), and a member
of the Blue Ribbon IAHC claims that this is all well-organized.
If you recall, he wrote...

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D
----------
From:     Hank Nussbacher[SMTP:hank@ibm.net.il]
Sent:     Tuesday, April 28, 1998 2:46 AM
To:  Jim Fleming; 'tld-wg@ripe.net'
Subject:  Re: Should Two Letter TLDs Be Immune ?

At 03:20 PM 4/27/98 -0500, Jim Fleming wrote:

In your opinion?  Want to make a mess of nTLDs as has happened to gTLDs?
RFC1591 defines specific rules as to what is allowed or not allowed.

To quote:

3) The designated manager must be equitable to all groups in the
      domain that request domain names.

      This means that the same rules are applied to all requests, all
      requests must be processed in a non-discriminatory fashion, and
      academic and commercial (and other) users are treated on an equal
      basis.  No bias shall be shown regarding requests that may come
      from customers of some other business related to the manager --
      e.g., no preferential service for customers of a particular data
      network provider.  There can be no requirement that a particular
      mail system (or other application), protocol, or product be used.

4) Significantly interested parties in the domain should agree that
      the designated manager is the appropriate party.

      The IANA tries to have any contending parties reach agreement
      among themselves, and generally takes no action to change things
      unless all the contending parties agree; only in cases where the
      designated manager has substantially mis-behaved would the IANA
      step in.

      However, it is also appropriate for interested parties to have
      some voice in selecting the designated manager.

      There are two cases where the IANA and the central IR may
      establish a new top-level domain and delegate only a portion of
      it: (1) there are contending parties that cannot agree, or (2) the
      applying party may not be able to represent or serve the whole
      country.  The later case sometimes arises when a party outside a
      country is trying to be helpful in getting networking started in a
      country -- this is sometimes called a "proxy" DNS service.

      The Internet DNS Names Review Board (IDNB), a committee
      established by the IANA, will act as a review panel for cases in
      which the parties can not reach agreement among themselves.  The
      IDNB's decisions will be binding.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

http://vi.caribnic.net


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--=_22767BF2.8FEE82E4--
From - Tue May 19 16:34:50 1998
Message-Id: <00001915@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:33 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: Who is on the IDNB ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_22767BF2.8DEC80E6"

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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:17 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: Who is on the IDNB ? -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <01BD7683.C7B28240@dial5.p0.unety.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET"
<DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>,
        "'Dave Farber'" <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Gordon Cook'" <cook@netaxs.com>,
        "'Dave Crocker'" <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>,
        "'dnrc-board@domain-name.org'" <dnrc-board@domain-name.org>,
        "'David W. Maher'" <dwmaher@ibm.net>
Cc: "'Hank Nussbacher'" <hank@ibm.net.il>, "'Jon Postel'" <postel@ISI.EDU>
Subject: RE: Who is on the IDNB ?
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 11:08:18 -0500
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On Sunday, May 03, 1998 10:46 AM, Dave Farber[SMTP:farber@cis.upenn.edu] =
wrote:
@
@>
@>Who is on the IDNB ?
@
@No idea

Who would know ? Jon Postel ? Hank Nussbacher ?

Hank is the one that brought all of that RFC material
into this discussion. He was also on the IAHC. Maybe
he can enlighten us ?

@
@>Is that the same as the ITAG ?
@>
@NO NO NO NO
@

What ever happened to the ITAG ?

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

http://vi.caribnic.net


--=_22767BF2.8CED81E7--

--=_22767BF2.8DEC80E6--
From - Tue May 19 16:34:51 1998
Message-Id: <00001913@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:34 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: Who is on the IDNB ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_23777AF3.83E28EE8"

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-K
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Content-Type: message/rfc822

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:18 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: Who is on the IDNB ? -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_23777AF3.82E38FE9"

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Received: by dial5.p0.unety.net with Microsoft Mail
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Message-ID: <01BD7684.C9D6CC60@dial5.p0.unety.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET"
<DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>,
        "'Dave Farber'" <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Gordon Cook'" <cook@netaxs.com>,
        "'Dave Crocker'" <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>,
        "'dnrc-board@domain-name.org'" <dnrc-board@domain-name.org>,
        "'David W. Maher'" <dwmaher@ibm.net>
Cc: "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'Scott Bradner'" <sob@harvard.edu>
Subject: RE: Who is on the IDNB ?
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 11:15:31 -0500
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On Sunday, May 03, 1998 11:15 AM, Dave Farber[SMTP:farber@cis.upenn.edu] =
wrote:
@Itag is still advising Jon
@
@NOTE ADVISING
@

That is what Scott Bradner told me the IAHC was doing
when it was created. The IAHC was supposed to provide
suggestions and then decisions would be made by the
IANA. For some reason, the reverse occurred. The IAHC
and follow-on groups started making decisions and advising
the IANA (Jon Postel).

No one seems to want to make a decision, despite the
fact that this is what people are paid to do. Why is that ?

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

http://vi.caribnic.net


--=_23777AF3.82E38FE9--

--=_23777AF3.83E28EE8--
From - Tue May 19 16:34:51 1998
Message-Id: <00001923@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:34 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Who is on the IDNB ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_23777AF3.81E08CEA"

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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:15 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Who is on the IDNB ? -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_23777AF3.80E18DEB"

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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET"
<DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Gordon Cook'" <cook@netaxs.com>,
        "'Dave Crocker'" <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>,
        "'dnrc-board@domain-name.org'" <dnrc-board@domain-name.org>,
        "'David W. Maher'" <dwmaher@ibm.net>
Cc: "'Ellen Rony'" <erony@marin.k12.ca.us>,
        "'David Farber'"
      <farber@cis.upenn.edu>,
        "'Hank Nussbacher'" <hank@ibm.net.il>, "'Don Heath'" <heath@isoc.org>,
        "'Christian Huitema'"
      <huitema@bellcore.com>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>
Cc: "'Michael Dillon'" <michael@memra.com>, "'Jon Postel'" <postel@ISI.EDU>,
        "'Scott Bradner'" <sob@harvard.edu>,
        "'Steve Wolff'"
      <swolff@cisco.com>,
        "'tld-wg@ripe.net'" <tld-wg@ripe.net>,
        "'vinton g. cerf'" <vcerf@MCI.NET>
Subject: Who is on the IDNB ?
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 10:32:46 -0500
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On Sunday, May 03, 1998 9:55 AM, Richard J. Sexton[SMTP:richard@SEXTON.COM]=
 wrote:
@At 09:25 AM 5/3/98 -0500, Jim Fleming wrote:
@>As a web designer, you also have to be concerned.
@>If you can NOT get names in .VI but other companies
@>can, then you can not design web sites. Or...your
@>customers may be forced to get a domain name
@>via Netnames under co.vi and they may not want that.
@
@>From:   Hank Nussbacher[SMTP:hank@ibm.net.il]
@>
@>In your opinion?  Want to make a mess of nTLDs as has happened to gTLDs?
@>RFC1591 defines specific rules as to what is allowed or not allowed.
@>
@>To quote:
@>      The Internet DNS Names Review Board (IDNB), a committee
@>      established by the IANA, will act as a review panel for cases in
@>      which the parties can not reach agreement among themselves.  The
@>      IDNB's decisions will be binding.
@
@Well, it would seem to be a simple matter of sending an email to the
@IDNB then, wouldnt it ?
@

Who is on the IDNB ?

Is that the same as the ITAG ?


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

http://vi.caribnic.net


--=_23777AF3.80E18DEB--

--=_23777AF3.81E08CEA--
From - Tue May 19 16:34:51 1998
Message-Id: <00001917@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:37 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Why Not Use the Internet ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_23777AF3.87E68AEC"

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-K
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Content-Type: message/rfc822

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:18 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Why Not Use the Internet ? -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Received: from dial5.p0.unety.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with
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Message-ID: <01BD773A.40F13500@dial5.p0.unety.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET"
<DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Don Heath'"
      <heath@isoc.org>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'Jon Postel'" <postel@ISI.EDU>, "'vinton g. cerf'" <vcerf@MCI.NET>
Subject: Why Not Use the Internet ?
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:54:30 -0500
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On Monday, May 04, 1998 8:26 AM, Wm Mark Clifford[SMTP:wmc@MPINET.NET] =
wrote:
@There are lots of questions on this list that can be answered with the
@following answer:
@Because we are in a state of explosive growth.
@
@It really works quite well.  Consider the following:
@Jim Fleming wrote:
@>You will also note that he does not discuss these matters in open =
forums.
@>What a great Internet...it is a shame people do not use it...
@Well Jim, because he is doing work and doesn't have the time to respond
@to every pion that happens to envoke his name.  He knows better than to
@allow himself to be distracted.  Nice try though!

It is a shame that you view open discussions as a distraction.

Why is it that people have all the time in the world to fly around
the world to meet with people not involved in the Registry Industry,
yet they do not have the time to participate in open discussions
in forums that are known to have people interested in the industry ?

http://www.dcisoc.org

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

http://vi.caribnic.net


--=_23777AF3.86E78BED--

--=_23777AF3.87E68AEC--
From - Tue May 19 16:34:52 1998
Message-Id: <00001927@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:39 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: 100% Government Backed TLDs -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_24707DF4.85E488EE"

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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:19 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: 100% Government Backed TLDs -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET"
<DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>
Cc: "'David W. Maher'" <72135.1272@compuserve.com>,
        "'Tony Rutkowski'"
      <amr@chaos.com>,
        "'Antitrust List'" <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'APPLe '"
      <apple@apnic.net>, "'at@ah.net'" <at@ah.net>
Cc: "'Antony Van Couvering'" <avc@NETNAMESUSA.COM>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Christopher Ambler'" <cambler@iodesign.com>,
        "'Carl Oppedahl'" <carl@OPPEDAHL.COM>,
        "'Gordon Cook'"
      <cook@netaxs.com>,
        "'Dave Crocker'" <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>
Cc: "'Deborah Howard'" <deb.howard@2COWHERD.NET>,
        "'Don Mitchell'"
      <dmitchel@nsf.gov>,
        "'Dotty Sparks'" <dsparks@usvi.net>,
        "'Dan Steinberg'" <dstein@TRAVEL-NET.COM>,
        "'editor@vibj.com'"
      <editor@vibj.com>,
        "'Ellen Rony'" <erony@marin.k12.ca.us>
Cc: "'David Farber'" <farber@cis.upenn.edu>, "'John Gilmore'" <gnu@toad.com>,
        "'Hank Nussbacher'" <hank@ibm.net.il>, "'Don Heath'" <heath@isoc.org>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'Ivan Pope'" <ivan@NETNAMES.COM>
Cc: "'jason@ICANECT.NET'" <jason@ICANECT.NET>,
        "'Jay@Iperdome.com'"
      <Jay@Iperdome.com>,
        "'jlucas@UVI.EDU'" <jlucas@UVI.EDU>,
        "'Jason Hendeles'" <jnh@skyscape.net>,
        "'Jeff Williams'"
      <jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM>,
        "'Karl Denninger'" <karl@mcs.net>
Cc: "'KathrynKL'" <KathrynKL@aol.com>,
        "'kawchuk@idirect.com'"
      <kawchuk@idirect.com>,
        "'Ken Fockler'" <ken.fockler@sympatico.ca>,
        "'Kent Crispin'" <kent@SONGBIRD.COM>, "'Leni Mayo'" <leni@moniker.net>,
        "'James Love'" <love@cptech.org>
Cc: "'Marc Hurst'" <mhurst@fastlane.ca>,
        "'Michael Dillon'"
      <michael@memra.com>,
        "'Peter deBlanc'" <pdeblanc@noc.usvi.net>,
        "'Peter Deutsch'" <peterd@Bunyip.Com>, "'Jon Postel'" <postel@ISI.EDU>,
        "'rhanscom@USVI.NET'" <rhanscom@usvi.net>
Cc: "'Richard J. Sexton'" <richard@SEXTON.COM>,
        "'Simon Higgs'"
      <simon@higgs.com>,
        "'Steven Pitzl'" <spitzl@usvi.net>,
        "'tld-wg@ripe.net'" <tld-wg@ripe.net>,
        "'vinton g. cerf'"
      <vcerf@MCI.NET>,
        "'zbvi@caribsurf.com'" <zbvi@caribsurf.com>
Subject: 100% Government Backed TLDs
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:47:37 -0500
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On Sunday, May 03, 1998 7:50 PM, Adam Todd[SMTP:at@AH.NET] wrote:
@Looks like the Domain Policy list is warming up for news on the Green =
Paper
@results.
@

Actually, I think that things are getting quiet and falling into place.

People close to the new IANA Inc. formation report that there will
NOT likely be any significant number of new TLDs added. Supposedly
the IAHC/CORE group will be given the go ahead to compete with
NSI. They will be required to have a Registrar/Registry situation that
is similar to the WorldNIC/InterNIC transition that is taking place under
the supervision of the U.S. Government. The rumor is that CORE will
start with THREE TLDs, just like NSI.

Apparently, government officials from Australia and Europe were able
to convince the U.S. Government that they should be involved at the
registry level. Since they will need time to get up to speed, the approach
of giving only CORE the go ahead is a compromise. Essentially, the
ISOC is given the status of being a psuedo government in this plan.

After CORE gets rolling, and NSI continues to roll, people expect to
see other governments making proposals to the IANA Inc. to have THREE
TLDs added via a registry they back. This will provide the government-backe=
d
stability that some people feel is needed to protect consumers. It will =
also
allow countries to break from the shackles of the ISO TLDs that they may
not desire.

As this evolves, it appears that ALL TLDs at the registry-level (not =
registrar)
will end up with some government supervision. .COM, .NET, and .ORG will
be U.S. supervised. The CORE registry will be supervised by Switzerland
unless CORE moves to the U.S. following their upcoming May 14th meeting.
All of the Country Code TLDs will be supervised by the countries involved,
or so they say.

In order for companies to get the new IANA Inc. to add new TLDs, this
plan would require them to find a "country" (or government) to escort them
and back their registries. If this plan comes to pass, this will likely =
cause
small countries to come into the international spot-light as they are
lobbied to support THREE new TLDs from some registry confederation
that is willing to turn the TLDs over to the country for trusteeship as =
they
proceed to develop the registrar level of operations.

This plan results in the real money being made at the registrar level
with "Internet taxes" going to the registry level and probably to the =
country
that is backing the three-TLD confederation. Because of the size and
dominance of the United States, it will be unlikely that any companies
will be able to lobby them to add any more TLDs. They will be able to
live off of the .COM, .NET, .ORG, .US, .MIL, and .GOV for a long time.

This plan helps to take much of the pressure off of the proposed IANA Inc.
Rather than deal with companies who bring attorneys, the IANA can
deal with countries who bring ambassadors. The IANA has not had
a good track-record for dealing with companies. Because of the DOD
roots of the IANA, it should be more comfortable dealing with governments.

This plan helps to encourage the wide-spread clean-up of the two-letter
country code registries. There will likely be a surge in education as
companies begin to educate the various governments about the
Registry Industry in hopes of getting a government endorsement for
their proposed TLDs. Rather than move the Internet further from government
control, it will help to place it in the international government's hands
more tightly.

This placement is likely to help balance creativity and prudence in
the selection of the TLDs. It is unlikely that a recognized government
will come to apply for controversial TLDs. Their citizens would likely
object. Despite the commercial value of a .XXX or .SEX, it is unlikely
that these will appear. This frees the IANA Inc. from having to deal
with the potential censorship issues.

This plan can be best described as "the Postage Stamp Plan".
Countries currently design and print colorful and creative postage
stamps, which could be compared to TLDs. They do not print
stamps that would be considered objectional. Instead, stamps
tend to reflect cultural diversity but still maintain the official "look"
that goes with government-sanctioned designs.

If this plan comes to pass, it will likely signal a turning point for
the IPv4 Internet. The IPv4 Internet was built around the edges of
the "old-school" telecommunciations infrastructure. It leveraged
off it, but avoided being pulled into the massive beauracracy (and
cost) that goes with government control.

If the plan plays out as expected, the IPv4 Internet will likely become
a core collection of infrastructure that the average person can no
longer touch. If this occurs, the only solution is to start to build
around this core infrastructure. IPv8 was designed in anticipation
of this evolution. It appears that it will be needed sooner rather
than later, because apparently this plan will be moving forward
between now and September 1998.


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

http://vi.caribnic.net


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From - Tue May 19 16:34:53 1998
Message-Id: <00001925@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:40 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: FW: CORE, POC, and ISOC meeting with Ira Magaziner on April 24
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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:20 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: FW: CORE, POC, and ISOC meeting with Ira Magaziner on April 24
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Received: from dial5.p0.unety.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>
Cc: "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: FW: CORE, POC, and ISOC meeting with Ira Magaziner on April 24
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 05:37:02 -0500
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----------
From:     Jim Fleming[SMTP:JimFleming]
Sent:     Tuesday, May 05, 1998 5:29 AM
To:  DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET
Subject:  RE: CORE, POC, and ISOC meeting with Ira Magaziner on =
April 24

On Monday, May 04, 1998 8:51 PM, Jay Fenello[SMTP:Jay@IPERDOME.COM] wrote:
@FYI:
@
@http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/SusanDavis.htm
@

In my opinion, the U.S. Government is following the same path
that many people have taken. They got involved, they attempted
to help, they recognize they can not please anyone, they cut and
run...and leave the IPv4 Internet to the implosive group that is left.

The U.S. Government is now in a win-win situation. If the IANA Inc.
is a success, they can take credit for allowing it to proceed without
their involvement. If the IANA Inc. fails, they can point out that they
tried to help and they were rejected. Anyone close to these matters
will likely follow the U.S. Government's lead.

This will create what is commonly called a power vacumn. This is
an implosive (not explosive) situation where the usual suspects will
now all rush to try to be at the center of the circle. Only a few will
make it and those people are already there. Translation...cut and run.
Your time and energy is not appreciated and you will never be part
of their "inner circle", and besides, why would you want to be ?

The inner circle is a closed group that has all of the attributes of
the government and telecommunication bureacracies that the Internet
claimed to be routing around. In order to protect their power base,
the inner circle has become what they set out to circumvent. It is
true justice that they will now be on the inside looking out and the
world will now move forward to route around them.

For the 99.99% of humans on planet Earth who are on the outside
looking in, our task is to turn and become the group on the outside
looking out. This change in direction gives us unlimited potential
and frees us from the shackles of the inner circle who will now be
left to deal with themselves.

We have the potential, they do not. We have freedom, they do not.
We have the opportunity to create something better, they do not.
They get to deal with the other burearacracies, we do not. We are
truely the winners, if there is such a thing. We get to move forward.
The are stuck at the center of their inner circle with no place to go...

...on to IPv8...

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt
-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

http://vi.caribnic.net


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From - Tue May 19 16:34:54 1998
Message-Id: <0000192B@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:43 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: CORE, POC, and ISOC meeting with Ira Magaziner on April 24
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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:21 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: CORE, POC, and ISOC meeting with Ira Magaziner on April 24
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET"
<DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Dave Farber'"
      <farber@cis.upenn.edu>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'John C Klensin'" <klensin@mci.net>, "'Jon Postel'" <postel@ISI.EDU>,
        "'Randy Bush'" <randy@psg.com>
Cc: "'Steve Wolff'" <swolff@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: CORE, POC, and ISOC meeting with Ira Magaziner on April 24
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:19:52 -0500
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On Tuesday, May 05, 1998 7:45 AM, Eric Weisberg[SMTP:weisberg@TEXOMA.NET] =
wrote:
@Roeland M.J. Meyer wrote:
@
@> ... They almost have to do this.
@> There isn't enough time.
@>
@>
@
@The big problem I see is creating a representative board for the new =
entity in
@this time frame.  This board will at least influence, if not determine
@everything which follows, so its composition, balance and legitimacy will =
be
@critical.  I doubt they can  form the "representative" organizations
@contemplated in the GP and hold votes that quickly.  And, I do not =
anticipate
@they will attempt an e-vote.  Thus, we are probably going to have an =
initial
@board appointed by the USG, IANA, or some conglomeration of existing
@organizations which purport to represent the broad range of stake =
holders.
@That will probably result in a board of familiar faces.  The beauty of =
this
@board will be in the eyes of the beholders.  I am sure that some will =
find the
@result magnificent and others will be horrified.  However, the USG will =
be off
@the hook, which apparently is the primary point of the process.
@

Eric,

The ITAG has already been created. The decision makers are known.

@@@@ http://www.nsrc.org/

nsrc@nsrc.org : Randy Bush / John Klensin / Steven Huter / Dave Meyer / =
Sirin Palasri / Zita Wenzel=20

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Don't you remember how ARIN came about ?
Let's not waste time giving people the impression
they will have any input to the process. Even Ira
Magaziner apparently has learned this...the hard way...

To oppose these people just slows the process down.
They are going to do all of the work. Why not let them ?
They have a lot of work to do and clean-up to do before
September 1998. Why not just sit back and enjoy their
show ?


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race


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From - Tue May 19 16:34:54 1998
Message-Id: <00001929@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:47 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: From the Peace Corp to the Domain CORE -Forwarded
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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:22 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: From the Peace Corp to the Domain CORE -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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Message-ID: <01BD7845.ABBE64A0@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET"
<DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: RE: From the Peace Corp to the Domain CORE
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:48:45 -0500
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On Tuesday, May 05, 1998 4:00 PM, Alexander von Thorn[SMTP:alexvont@UUNET.C=
A] wrote:
@At 03:25 PM 05/05/98 -0400, Jim Fleming <JimFleming@UNETY.NET> wrote:
@>There is no doubt that capitalists will now figure out that the U.S. =
Government
@>is going to cave in to socialism for the development of the Registry =
Industry.
@
@That sounds like pure paranoia. I could believe that the US government =
might
@suffer an error in judgement and try to favor US-based stakeholders; I
@cannot believe that it would tolerate an outcome which explicitly favored
@non-US-based stakeholders ("socialist" or otherwise).
@

When you say the U.S. Government, you have to be careful.
The White House and the Department of Commerce might
be working in one direction, while the National Science Foundation
is headed in the other direction.

Here is an example:
     http://www.nsf.gov/cgi-bin/showaward?award=3D9616597

In my opinion, the White House (Ira Magaziner) under-estimated
what the $3.8 billion dollar annual budget of the NSF can do to them
in "cyberspace". They did not have a prayer. The academic and
international lobbyists supported by the NSF are a force that even
the White House and DOC can overcome.

I think that you will see the White House and the DOC walk away
(or run) as fast as they can. They have no choice. They can NOT
favor US-based stakeholders. This would devistate the international
Internet growth which the U.S. is funding via other agencies like
the NSF. This would be like shooting themselves in the foot with
their own gun.

Instead, I think you will see the White House and the DOC wisely
hand the IPv4 Internet to the international community. This will
result in MORE participation from the international community.
The international community is now "on the hook" so to speak.
Countries are now mobilizing. The IPv4 Internet will be in their
hands as soon as the U.S. withdraws. The ITU will likely help to
make sure it gets into the "right hands" in some of the remote
places. That is a role they have played for years.

Back in the U.S. the playing field will now be open for innovation
and next generation systems. The U.S. will not have to be saddled
with the ills of the IPv4 Internet. The international community will
get to deal with that. They wanted it, and may regret demanding it.
Only time will tell what becomes of it. At best, all we can hope for
is that the IPv4 Internet remains as a low-cost international bit
transport network with some minimal DNS services. Given that,
we can build next generation networks around the edges of this
aging structure. These next generation networks will bring the
opportunities that the U.S. stakeholders seek. Once deployed,
the IPv4 Internet can be scaled back and eventually decommissioned.
That will take a while, and may never happen in some countries.

In the U.S. the focus needs to shift to more modern solutions.
It is a shame that the international community does not recognize
what they are getting. Because many of the countries are just
getting connected, any system will look good. They will demand
the next generation solutions as they learn more about what is
going on. This will require education which is what I suppose the
Domain CORE will provide. Only time will tell...

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race


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From - Tue May 19 16:34:55 1998
Message-Id: <00001933@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:48 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: requesrt for information concerning the .arts TLD
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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:23 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: requesrt for information concerning the .arts TLD
     -Forwarded
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET"
<DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
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On Tuesday, May 05, 1998 6:24 PM, Dave Crocker[SMTP:dcrocker@BRANDENBURG.CO=
M] wrote:
@At 12:22 PM 5/5/98 -0400, Richard J. Sexton wrote:
@>.ARTS was deployed in August 1996 by Skyscape Corporation in Toronto,
@Ontario, Canada
@...
@>Skyscape's .ARTS was originally deployed in in the ill-fated Alternic
@...
@>You can register a .ARTS name by sengin a registration template to
@hostmaster@skyscape.net,
@
@In other words, .arts is not currently part of the domaine name service
@that is used by 99.5% of the Internet.
@

It is my understanding that Switzerland's backed CORE will open up with...

     .ARTS
     .STORE or .SHOP
     .WEB

Does anyone know when they will be added to the U.S. Government's
Root Name Servers ?


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race


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--=_27737EF7.7A1B7716--
From - Tue May 19 16:34:56 1998
Message-Id: <00001937@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:50 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Access to InterNIC Contact Information -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_287C71F8.74157918"

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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:24 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Access to InterNIC Contact Information -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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Message-ID: <01BD7A89.D65D7840@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Don Mitchell'" <dmitchel@nsf.gov>
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>,
        "'Antitrust List'"
      <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Meeks, Brock'" <Brock.Meeks@MSNBC.COM>,
        "'Carl Oppedahl'" <carl@OPPEDAHL.COM>
Cc: "'Chuck Gomes'" <cgomes@internic.net>,
        "'Clough, Christopher'"
      <chrisc@NETSOL.COM>,
        "'charles mueller'" <cmueller@metrolink.net>,
        "'daveg@netsol.com'" <daveg@NETSOL.COM>,
        "'dnrc-board@domain-name.org'" <dnrc-board@domain-name.org>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Cc: "'Jay@Iperdome.com'" <Jay@Iperdome.com>,
        "'Jason Hendeles'"
      <jnh@skyscape.net>,
        "'Karl Auerbach'" <karl@cavebear.com>,
        "'KathrynKL'" <KathrynKL@aol.com>,
        "'lsundro@nsf.gov'"
      <lsundro@nsf.gov>,
        "'Richard J. Sexton'" <richard@SEXTON.COM>
Cc: "'Simon Higgs'" <simon@higgs.com>, "'Steve Heflin'" <steve@domainbank.net>
Subject: Access to InterNIC Contact Information
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:01:45 -0500
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Mr. Don Mitchell
National Science Foundation

Dear Mr. Mitchell:

It has been brought to my attention that Mr. David Graves of
Network Solutions, Inc. is informing people that there is no bulk
access to the contact information that has been collected as
part of the U.S. Government's InterNIC operations. I claim this
is not the case. I suggest that you look into these matters as
the NSF Manager for the InterNIC.

In the late Summer of 1997, prior to the NSI IPO, common FTP
access to the contact information became restricted. The claim
made by NSI was that access had to be limited because of
security reasons. At the time, an announcement was made that
people needing access could obtain an FTP account and password.

I have seen responses that NSI has sent to companies to provide
this type of bulk access. Why Mr. Graves would be informing people
that no bulk access is allowed is beyond me. Furthermore, the
private company ARIN, must have had bulk access to the information
because their database contains the same information from the
InterNIC database and most people have had no contact or business
relationship to ARIN.

Please look into these matters and provide the U.S. taxpayers
with the information needed to gain access to the databases they
have paid to develop. Thanks for your time.

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race


--=_287C71F8.75147819--

--=_287C71F8.74157918--
From - Tue May 19 16:34:56 1998
Message-Id: <0000192F@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:51 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: Access to InterNIC Contact Information -Forwarded
     -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_287C71F8.76177B1A"

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-K
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Content-Type: message/rfc822

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:25 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: Access to InterNIC Contact Information -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_287C71F8.77167A1B"

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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
id RAA06160; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:06:51 -0500
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Message-ID: <01BD7AA2.EFD8DEE0@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Graves, Dave'" <daveg@netsol.com>, "'Don Mitchell'" <dmitchel@nsf.gov>
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>,
        "'Antitrust List'"
      <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Meeks, Brock'" <Brock.Meeks@MSNBC.COM>,
        "'Carl Oppedahl'" <carl@OPPEDAHL.COM>
Cc: "'Chuck Gomes'" <cgomes@internic.net>,
        "'Clough, Christopher'"
      <chrisc@netsol.com>,
        "'charles mueller'" <cmueller@metrolink.net>,
        "'dnrc-board@domain-name.org'" <dnrc-board@domain-name.org>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'Jay@Iperdome.com'" <Jay@Iperdome.com>
Cc: "'Jason Hendeles'" <jnh@skyscape.net>,
        "'Karl Auerbach'"
      <karl@cavebear.com>,
        "'KathrynKL'" <KathrynKL@aol.com>,
        "'lsundro@nsf.gov'" <lsundro@nsf.gov>,
        "'Richard J. Sexton'"
      <richard@SEXTON.COM>,
        "'Simon Higgs'" <simon@higgs.com>
Cc: "'Steve Heflin'" <steve@domainbank.net>
Subject: RE: Access to InterNIC Contact Information
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 17:01:25 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Friday, May 08, 1998 3:54 PM, Graves, Dave[SMTP:daveg@netsol.com] =
wrote:
@Jim,
@
@The password to which you refer only allows people to download the zone
@files, files that contain simply domain names and IP addresses
@associated with each.  If the password holder wants information about
@each registrant, the password holder must set up an automated query that
@repeatedly hammers the "Whois" database, extracting the data on a domain
@name by domain name basis.  Therefore, the data is not available in
@bulk.  In fact, people complain that they can only get the information
@with this piecemeal approach.
@
@David M Graves
@Director, Business Affairs
@Network Solutions, Inc.
@email: daveg@netsol.com
@

Thanks for your reply. According to the agreement that you
and NSI made with the United States Government via the
National Science Foundation, NSI (the RS contractor) agreed
to furnish the information to the DS contractor, AT&T. What
will you be doing with the information now that the DS contractor
has apparently ended their contract early ?

@@@@ http://rs.internic.net/nsf/review/section2.html

"NSI agreed to:

``... [provide the information from these assignments] to the directory =
and=20
database services provider to be made available to the entire Internet=20
community.''

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

The "directory and database services provider" is AT&T.

AT&T should have all of the "information" from the assignments.
AT&T has the duty to make that information available to the "Internet=20
community".
That is what AT&T agreed to do, as their part of the InterNIC contract
with the U.S. Government, via the NSF.

Surely AT&T understands what they have contracted to do
and will step forward and provide the required information as
the InterNIC contract(s) end. The AT&T contract lasts well
beyond the year 2000. The NSI contract ends soon. One
would assume that AT&T will be called upon to help manage
the transition for the next couple of years.

AT&T
DS Award - $4,543,336 (Estimated) - Expires September 30, 2003 (Estimated)
http://www.nsf.gov/cgi-bin/showaward?award=3D9218179

GA
IS Award - $4,793,092 - Expires September 30, 1998
http://www.nsf.gov/cgi-bin/showaward?award=3D9218748

NSI
RS Award - $4,369,334 (Estimated) - Expires September 30, 1998 (Estimated)
http://www.nsf.gov/cgi-bin/showaward?award=3D9218742

=3D=3D=3D

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race



--=_287C71F8.77167A1B--

--=_287C71F8.76177B1A--
From - Tue May 19 16:34:57 1998
Message-Id: <00001939@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:54 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: Access to InterNIC Contact Information -Forwarded
     -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_297D70F9.70117D1C"

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-K
--=_297D70F9.70117D1C
Content-Type: message/rfc822

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:26 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: Access to InterNIC Contact Information -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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Message-ID: <01BD7AA4.300808A0@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Graves, Dave'" <daveg@netsol.com>, "'Don Mitchell'" <dmitchel@nsf.gov>
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>,
        "'Antitrust List'"
      <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Meeks, Brock'" <Brock.Meeks@MSNBC.COM>,
        "'Carl Oppedahl'" <carl@OPPEDAHL.COM>
Cc: "'Chuck Gomes'" <cgomes@internic.net>,
        "'Clough, Christopher'"
      <chrisc@netsol.com>,
        "'charles mueller'" <cmueller@metrolink.net>,
        "'dnrc-board@domain-name.org'" <dnrc-board@domain-name.org>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'Jay@Iperdome.com'" <Jay@Iperdome.com>
Cc: "'Jason Hendeles'" <jnh@skyscape.net>,
        "'Karl Auerbach'"
      <karl@cavebear.com>,
        "'KathrynKL'" <KathrynKL@aol.com>,
        "'lsundro@nsf.gov'" <lsundro@nsf.gov>,
        "'Richard J. Sexton'"
      <richard@SEXTON.COM>,
        "'Simon Higgs'" <simon@higgs.com>
Cc: "'Steve Heflin'" <steve@domainbank.net>
Subject: RE: Access to InterNIC Contact Information
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 17:10:22 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Friday, May 08, 1998 3:54 PM, Graves, Dave[SMTP:daveg@netsol.com] =
wrote:
@Jim,
@
@The password to which you refer only allows people to download the zone
@files, files that contain simply domain names and IP addresses
@associated with each.  If the password holder wants information about
@each registrant, the password holder must set up an automated query that
@repeatedly hammers the "Whois" database, extracting the data on a domain
@name by domain name basis.  Therefore, the data is not available in
@bulk.  In fact, people complain that they can only get the information
@with this piecemeal approach.
@

Also...can you please explain how the private company, commonly
called ARIN, was apparently able to obtain the data base in bulk ?


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race


--=_297D70F9.71107C1D--

--=_297D70F9.70117D1C--
From - Tue May 19 16:34:57 1998
Message-Id: <0000192D@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:55 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: Access to InterNIC Contact Information -Forwarded
     -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_297D70F9.72137F1E"

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-K
--=_297D70F9.72137F1E
Content-Type: message/rfc822

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:27 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: Access to InterNIC Contact Information -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_297D70F9.73127E1F"

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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
id HAA13850; Mon, 11 May 1998 07:20:11 -0500
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     id <01BD7CAC.798ACA80@webster.unir.net>; Mon, 11 May 1998 07:14:45 -0500
Message-ID: <01BD7CAC.798ACA80@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Graves, Dave'" <daveg@netsol.com>, "'Don Mitchell'" <dmitchel@nsf.gov>
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>,
        "'Antitrust List'"
      <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Meeks, Brock'" <Brock.Meeks@MSNBC.COM>,
        "'Carl Oppedahl'" <carl@OPPEDAHL.COM>
Cc: "Gomes, Chuck" <cgomes@internic.net>,
        "Clough, Christopher"
      <chrisc@netsol.com>,
        "'charles mueller'" <cmueller@metrolink.net>,
        "'dnrc-board@domain-name.org'" <dnrc-board@domain-name.org>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'Jay@Iperdome.com'" <Jay@Iperdome.com>
Cc: "'Jason Hendeles'" <jnh@skyscape.net>,
        "'Karl Auerbach'"
      <karl@cavebear.com>,
        "'KathrynKL'" <KathrynKL@aol.com>,
        "'lsundro@nsf.gov'" <lsundro@nsf.gov>,
        "'Richard J. Sexton'"
      <richard@SEXTON.COM>,
        "'Simon Higgs'" <simon@higgs.com>
Cc: "'Steve Heflin'" <steve@domainbank.net>
Subject: RE: Access to InterNIC Contact Information
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 07:14:43 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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On Monday, May 11, 1998 7:02 AM, Graves, Dave[SMTP:daveg@netsol.com] =
wrote:
@Jim,
@
@ARIN did not receive the entire database.  They received only that
@portion that they needed to administer the IP address space.
@
@Dave Graves
@

ARIN is a private company. Correct ?

Are other private companies given bulk access or copies of the
data base, in whole or in part ?

Did the NSF authorize this transfer of the database contents ?

Why isn't Don Mitchell of the NSF answering these questions ?
They were directed to him.

I know that he uses e-mail regularly. I certainly get enough copies
of what he sends people privately. Why doesn't Don Mitchell of
the U.S. Government's NSF participate in "open" discussions ?

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


--=_297D70F9.73127E1F--

--=_297D70F9.72137F1E--
From - Tue May 19 16:34:58 1998
Message-Id: <00001935@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:56 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: IP Space -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_2A7E73FA.6C0D6100"

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-K
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Content-Type: message/rfc822

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:29 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: IP Space -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_2A7E73FA.6D0C6001"

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Message-ID: <01BD7CB5.8179A640@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "daveg@netsol.com" <daveg@netsol.com>,
        "dmitchel@nsf.gov"
      <dmitchel@nsf.gov>,
        "'Harold Feld'" <hfeld@cov.com>,
        "JimFleming@unety.net" <JimFleming@unety.net>
Cc: "amr@chaos.com" <amr@chaos.com>,
        "antitrust@essential.org"
      <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "antitrust@usdoj.gov"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "Brock.Meeks@MSNBC.COM" <Brock.Meeks@MSNBC.COM>,
        "carl@oppedahl.com" <carl@oppedahl.com>
Cc: "cgomes@internic.net" <cgomes@internic.net>,
        "chrisc@netsol.com"
      <chrisc@netsol.com>,
        "cmueller@metrolink.net"
      <cmueller@metrolink.net>,
        "dnrc-board@domain-name.org"
      <dnrc-board@domain-name.org>,
        "Ira Magaziner"
      <Ira Magaziner>,
        "Jay@Iperdome.com"
      <Jay@Iperdome.com>
Cc: "jnh@skyscape.net" <jnh@skyscape.net>,
        "karl@cavebear.com"
      <karl@cavebear.com>,
        "KathrynKL@aol.com" <KathrynKL@aol.com>,
        "lsundro@nsf.gov" <lsundro@nsf.gov>,
        "richard@SEXTON.COM"
      <richard@SEXTON.COM>,
        "simon@higgs.com" <simon@higgs.com>
Cc: "steve@domainbank.net" <steve@domainbank.net>
Subject: RE: IP Space
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:19:22 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Monday, May 11, 1998 7:16 AM, Harold Feld[SMTP:hfeld@cov.com] wrote:
@This may seem a naive question, but how much IP space is there =
remaining=20
to administer?  I thought that most of the IP addresses had been used =
(at=20
least, I have heard a tremendous amount about an IP address shortage).=20
 Also, what happens to IP addresses when the IP-address holder goes =
under?=20
 Is IP address space property that can be bought and sold along with a=20
business (or separately) (I know that Arin has a policy designed to=20
discourage "specualtion" in IP address space, but there is a difference=20
between speculation and sales of IP address space for legitimate purposes).=

@
@I confess, the model I'm familiar with is FCC and frequency licenses.
@

All very good questions...here are my answers...

You have to differentiate between IPv4, IPv8 and IPv6 address spaces.
This is a little like the difference in the AM and FM spectrums. Let's
assume that by IP you mean IPv4.

IPv4 space is hardly used up. If you take a top down view of the space
there are 256 hunks now commonly called /8s. Some of these /8s are
reserved for special uses. Some are allocated to companies like DEC,
HP, Apple, IBM, AT&T, etc. and are hardly used. Those companies use
other pieces of the IPv4 space, some of which is managed by RIPE in
Europe and APNIC in the Asia/Pacific (currently moving to Australia).

ARIN is new to the scene. The U.S. Government (mostly via the NSF)
approved the creation of ARIN to allow NSI to move into a position where
they just had the .COM/.NET/.ORG TLD management. It was more like
the classic movie comedy scene where the military leader asks for
volunteers to step forward and all of the smart people step back, leaving
the volunteers to be the people that did not move.

Via very clever timing and confusing labels and words, the NSF, NSI
and ARIN have worked to take the structure called InterNIC and strip
it of its assets. This would be like taking something called an Air Force
Base and making parts of it private to a point where all that remains
is the runway which is then turned into part of an Interstate highway
that happens to run down the middle of the private development. At
some point, people walk away and say..."Hmm, what happened to
that Air Force Base that used to be here?"

Continuing, ARIN has apparently been handed billions of dollars in
IPv4 assets. Because ARIN manages the IN-ADDR.ARPA zone, it
essentially controls the entire IPv4 address space. Yes, people will
claim that the IANA (aka Jon Postel) controls it, but Jon Postel is
on ARIN's Board of Directors. Also, the domain name registrations
handled by ARIN in IN-ADDR.ARPA determine who has been allocated
parts of the space. As an example, 1/256th of the IPv4 address space
has been allocated to DEC[1]. That is all 32 bit addresses that begin
with 16. The IN-ADDR.ARPA delegation would be 16.IN-ADDR.ARPA.

You could go through and do an inventory of all 256 of the /8s in the
IPv4 space by looking at the domain names (or DNS zones) such as:

0.IN-ADDR.ARPA
1.IN-ADDR.ARPA
2.IN-ADDR.ARPA
...
253.IN-ADDR.ARPA
254.IN-ADDR.ARPA
255.IN-ADDR.ARPA

If you did this you would find a very disorganized situation. Because of
years of chaotic management, mostly by the U.S. Government, we have
a situation where some groups have huge allocations and some have
small allocations. As a group, ISPs have a very small part of the IPv4
address space.

Much of the IPv4 address space remains "Reserved by the IANA".
This is a problematic policy position because IP addresses do not
wear-out. These blocks could be put into use to save ISPs and other
companies millions of dollars in renumbering costs and aniexty, but
instead, the IP space is controlled and made into a scarce resource.
This creates an artificial value, and now companies pay large sums
in the grey markets to obtain space which they should be able to
easily get from the U.S. Government and other governments. Of course,
this is not currently the case, because people are trying to move
the resources to private companies, like ARIN, so that selected
people can profit from the lease/sale of the assets. Yes, ARIN will
claim they are not selling or leasing addresses. They claim they
are providing a service for a fee and addresses just happen to come
with the service. [BTW, Why the IRS approved ARIN as an non-profit
company is beyond me. The IRS regulations clearly state that
non-profit companies can not be engaged in providing services
commonly provided by for-profit companies.]

Continuing...the point needs to be raised that IP addresses do not
wear out and as companies "go under" there should be a natural way
they are recycled. This is currently not the case. Because of the
mentality that IP addresses never come back, people in control of
these resources take the position that the resources must be handed
out slowly [and of course, they get paid high salaries to do that].

I have suggested for years that an approach be considered where
IPv4 addresses are allocated in a manner similar to IPv8 addresses.
People that earn high salaries managing IPv4 addresses disparage
these approaches. Unfortunately, the U.S. Government officials do
not understand the issues and they continue to make decisions in
favor of the scarce resource methods. All of this is back up by the
few companies that have huge allocations.

The good news is that IPv8 addresses will not be handled in this
manner. Huge blocks of IPv8 addresses are automatically delegated
to various Internet stakeholders in a fair and equitable manner. This
helps to prevent the situations we have today where the resources
are in the hands of a few and they are allowed to charge high fees
for what should be free or close to it.

As I pointed out in my comments on the Green Paper. I think that
more emphasis should be placed on IP address issues than domain
names. Domain names are the sizzle and IP addresses are the steak.
Domain names are the billboards and IP addresses are the farm land.
Internet leaders keep encouraging the domain name discussions
because they do not want people to get to the real issues which are
allocation of IP addresses.

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/03_23_98-2.htm
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt

Companies that have IP addresses prosper and save millions of
dollars in administration costs. Companies that do not have IP addresses
can struggle. ISPs are trained early in the game that they have to
pay homage to the people with the IP address resources or they
will not progress in the Internet industry. This is why they toe the line
and follow the IANA.

Recently, people are starting to realize that companies with huge IP
allocations have idle assets which can now easily be leased or sold.
People have also pointed out that these companies have a duty to their
shareholders to capitalize on these assets. In some cases, the CEO
of the company does not even know they have the assets which should
appear on their balance sheets and in their annual reports.

As various U.S. Government agencies get involved in these matters
we are beginning to see a better understanding of the issues. In the
past, the National Science Foundation managers were not prepared
to deal with these issues or they chose to make decisions that favored
their friends and cronies as opposed to what makes sense for society.
Why they were allowed to do this is a subject that needs a complete
investigation. The NSF has been alerted to the problems over the years
and still to this day continues to work behind the scenes to try to
manipulate these markets and the U.S. Government processes.

Hopefully, there will soon be a response from the Department of Commerce.
Some claim that another document will be released this week or next.
Hopefully, it will begin to address some of these issues. In the meantime,
from an IPv8 point of view, we have to proceed and assume that society
will get the IPv4 mess cleaned up. IPv8 only depends on IPv4 (and IPv6)
transports for the interim deployments. To that end, we should not care.
Unfortunately, it is hard to not care, when one sees so many people
suffering at the hands of a few.


[1]
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=

Digital Equipment Corporation (NET-DEC-INTERNET)

   Netname: DEC-INTERNET
   Netnumber: 16.0.0.0

   Coordinator:
      Reid, Brian K.  (BKR-ARIN)  reid@PA.DEC.COM
      415) 688-1307
   Alternate Contact:
      Digital Equipment Corporation  (DEC-NOC-ARIN)  noc@DIGITAL.COM
      1 888 622 5742, +1 415 688 1396
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:34:58 1998
Message-Id: <00001931@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:21:00 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: FW: $943,937 Estimated First Quarter Revenue -Forwarded
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:11:30 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: FW: $943,937 Estimated First Quarter Revenue -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
id NAA17997; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:30:54 -0500
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Message-ID: <01BD7DA9.6D10BB40@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>
Cc: "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: FW: $943,937 Estimated First Quarter Revenue
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:25:25 -0500
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----------
From:     Jim Fleming[SMTP:JimFleming@unety.net]
Sent:     Tuesday, May 12, 1998 1:24 PM
To:  'Jim Fleming'; 'ARIN list'
Cc:  'arin-council@arin.net'
Subject:  $943,937 Estimated First Quarter Revenue

On Tuesday, May 12, 1998 12:53 PM, Jim Fleming[SMTP:JimFleming@unety.net] =
wrote:
@
@ARIN Status Report
@------------------
@
@                             January         February        March
@
@     /24's Issued              2176            3265           5547
@     ASNs Issued                 26              60             85
@

Estimated First Quarter Totals

/24s - 10,988 - $858,437
ASNs - 171 - $85,500

Total Estimated Revenue - $943,937

This is based on 32 /24s for $2,500 and $500 per ASN.
No $1,000 membership fees are included.

With 16 employees, this amounts to $58,996 revenue per employee.
Assuming no growth, that is $235,984 per employee on an annual basis.


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:34:59 1998
Message-Id: <0000193B@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:23:32 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Re: ARIN Board Expanded ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:14:28 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Re: ARIN Board Expanded ? -Forwarded
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Received: from localhost (tomg@localhost)
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     Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:13:35 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:13:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Glover <tomg@boiled.egg.com>
To: Kim Hubbard <kimh@arin.net>
cc: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>, BBURR@ntia.doc.gov,
        cook@NETAXS.COM, Daniel.Karrenberg@RIPE.NET,
dcrocker@BRANDENBURG.COM,
        dmitchel@NSF.GOV, dstein@TRAVEL-NET.COM, erony@marin.k12.ca.us,
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        richard@sexton.com, sob@ACADEM.COM, sob@harvard.edu,
        sr-management@texoma.net, Stef@nma.com, vcerf@MCI.NET
Subject: Re: ARIN Board Expanded ?
In-Reply-To: <199804161605.QAA29243@arin.net>
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On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Kim Hubbard wrote:

> >
> Jim you're grasping again.  ARIN doesn't pay Gordon or you. =20

Jim has never had a grasp of anything. Especially reality.

>=20
> Kim
>=20
> > On Thursday, April 16, 1998 4:58 AM, Kim Hubbard[SMTP:kimh@arin.net] =
wrote:
> > @>=20
> > @> By the way, I expressed concern about the financial stability of =
ARIN
> > @> and your consultant Gordon Cook, seemed to take exception to that.
> > @
> > @Gordon Cook is my consultant just like you are in fact these days =
lots
> > @people have decided to consult me on ARIN issues :-)
> > @>=20
> >=20
> > There is one small difference...you have to pay Gordon...here is his =
"ad"
> >=20
> > ***********************************************************************=
****
> > The COOK Report on Internet            New Special Report: Building =
Internet
> > 431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 USA  Infrastructure ($395) available.=
 See
> > (609) 882-2572 (phone & fax)           http://www.cookreport.com/buildi=
ng.html
> > cook@cookreport.com                    Index to 6 years of COOK =
Report, how to
> > subscribe, exec summaries, special reports, gloss at http://www.cookrep=
ort.com
> > ***********************************************************************=
****
> >=20
> > Other people like myself work as volunteers...in all of these debates
> > it is always important to try to make a list of the people and then
> > also give an estimate of how much they are being paid per hour to
> > work on this stuff...
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > -
> > Jim Fleming
> > Unir Corporation
> > IBC, Tortola, BVI
> >=20
>=20


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Regards,
Tom
  ________________________________________________________________________
 |   "The Egg Domain"    |       "An engineer without a manager,          | 
 |    tomg@egg.com       |        is like a fish without a bicycle."      |
 | http://www.egg.com/   |                                                |
 |                       |                                                |


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--=_2B7F72FB.68096504--
From - Tue May 19 16:35:00 1998
Message-Id: <0000193D@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:23:32 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Re: IP Space -Forwarded -Forwarded
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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:14:29 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Re: IP Space -Forwarded
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Received: from [206.5.17.2] by exchange.chaos.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/1.acsd) with ESMTP id
da005619 for <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:35:17 -0400
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:35:14 -0400
To: Harold Feld <hfeld@cov.com>,daveg@netsol.com,dmitchel@nsf.gov,
 JimFleming@unety.net
From: Tony Rutkowski <amr@chaos.com>
Subject: Re: IP Space
Cc: KathrynKL@aol.com,karl@cavebear.com,dnrc-board@domain-name.org,
 steve@domainbank.net,antitrust@essential.org,simon@higgs.com,
 cgomes@internic.net,Jay@Iperdome.com,cmueller@metrolink.net,
 Brock.Meeks@MSNBC.COM,chrisc@netsol.com,lsundro@nsf.gov,
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Harold,

>This may seem a naive question, but how much IP space is there remaining
to administer?  I thought that most of the IP addresses had been used (at
least, I have heard a tremendous amount about an IP address shortage).
Also, what happens to IP addresses when the IP-address holder goes under?
Is IP address space property that can be bought and sold along with a
business (or separately) (I know that Arin has a policy designed to
discourage "specualtion" in IP address space, but there is a difference
between speculation and sales of IP address space for legitimate purposes).=


You have identified what is certain to emerge as
the most significant identifier-related issue.  By
comparison, DNS issues are trivial.  It is also an
area where there not only is relatively little=20
publicly available information, but also a dearth
of open policy making and policies.

The government, the judicial system, and the Assigned=20
Numbers Corp will have their hands full.


--tony


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--=_2C7875FC.6B0A6607--
From - Tue May 19 16:35:00 1998
Message-Id: <0000193F@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:24:21 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Re: ARIN Board Expanded ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_2C7875FC.65046809"

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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:15:18 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Re: ARIN Board Expanded ? -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822

Received: from hawk (hawk.mhsc.com [207.223.108.13])
     by condor.mhsc.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA16672;
     Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:46 -0700
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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:46 -0700
To: Kim Hubbard <kimh@arin.net>
From: "Roeland M.J. Meyer" <rmeyer@mhsc.com>
Subject: Re: ARIN Board Expanded ?
Cc: JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net (Jim Fleming), kimh@arin.net,
        BBURR@ntia.doc.gov, cook@NETAXS.COM, Daniel.Karrenberg@RIPE.NET,
        Ira Magaziner, Jay@Iperdome.com, karl@MCS.NET,
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In-Reply-To: <199804161358.NAA22207@arin.net>
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Since ARIN is now a corp, ARIN should have access to the same sources of
funds that MHSC has. There are $BUS waiting for the proper business plan.

At 09:58 4/16/98 -0400, Kim Hubbard wrote:
>>=20
>> By the way, I expressed concern about the financial stability of ARIN
>> and your consultant Gordon Cook, seemed to take exception to that.
>
>Gordon Cook is my consultant just like you are in fact these days lots
>people have decided to consult me on ARIN issues :-)
>>=20
>> As I have mentioned, RIPE is getting into the TLD business to broaden
>> their base. Their domain name was recently put on hold because they
>> did not pay NSI. I think that it is critical that people consider the
business
>> issues (and not just the technical issues) when they plan these =
registries.
>> If the U.S. Government provides an edorsement then people are going
>> to flock to the company (like ARIN). Financial stability should be a =
high
>> priority.
>
>ARIN is financially stable for the services that ARIN provides now, but
>no we do not have a bunch of money to fund or bootstrap services like
>the ones you're suggesting.
>
>-kim
>
>>=20
>> Has anyone considered what would happen if ARIN fails financially ?
>> Are there contingency plans ?
>>=20
>> -
>> Jim Fleming
>> Unir Corporation
>> IBC, Tortola, BVI
>>=20
>=20
___________________________________________________=20
Roeland M.J. Meyer, ISOC (InterNIC RM993)=20
e-mail: <mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com>mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com
Personal web pages: <http://www.mhsc.com/~rmeyer>http://www.mhsc.com/~rmeye=
r
Company web-site: <http://www.mhsc.com/>http://www.mhsc.com/
___________________________________________=20
SecureMail from MHSC.NET is coming soon! =20


--=_2C7875FC.65046809--
From - Tue May 19 16:35:01 1998
Message-Id: <0000194F@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:24:28 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Re: ARIN Board Expanded ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_2D7974FD.66076B0A"

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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:15:25 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Re: ARIN Board Expanded ? -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822

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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:13:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Glover <tomg@boiled.egg.com>
To: Kim Hubbard <kimh@arin.net>
cc: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>, BBURR@ntia.doc.gov,
        cook@NETAXS.COM, Daniel.Karrenberg@RIPE.NET,
dcrocker@BRANDENBURG.COM,
        dmitchel@NSF.GOV, dstein@TRAVEL-NET.COM, erony@marin.k12.ca.us,
        farber@cis.upenn.edu, heath@isoc.org, ho@cs.arizona.edu,
        Ira Magaziner, Jay@Iperdome.com, jcurran@BBNPLANET.COM,
        jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com, karl@CAVEBEAR.COM, karl@MCS.NET,
        KathrynKL@aol.com, naipr@arin.net, phil@CHARON.MILEPOST.COM,
        richard@sexton.com, sob@ACADEM.COM, sob@harvard.edu,
        sr-management@texoma.net, Stef@nma.com, vcerf@MCI.NET
Subject: Re: ARIN Board Expanded ?
In-Reply-To: <199804161605.QAA29243@arin.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980416091222.25807P-100000@boiled.egg.com>
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On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Kim Hubbard wrote:

> >
> Jim you're grasping again.  ARIN doesn't pay Gordon or you. =20

Jim has never had a grasp of anything. Especially reality.

>=20
> Kim
>=20
> > On Thursday, April 16, 1998 4:58 AM, Kim Hubbard[SMTP:kimh@arin.net] =
wrote:
> > @>=20
> > @> By the way, I expressed concern about the financial stability of =
ARIN
> > @> and your consultant Gordon Cook, seemed to take exception to that.
> > @
> > @Gordon Cook is my consultant just like you are in fact these days =
lots
> > @people have decided to consult me on ARIN issues :-)
> > @>=20
> >=20
> > There is one small difference...you have to pay Gordon...here is his =
"ad"
> >=20
> > ***********************************************************************=
****
> > The COOK Report on Internet            New Special Report: Building =
Internet
> > 431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 USA  Infrastructure ($395) available.=
 See
> > (609) 882-2572 (phone & fax)           http://www.cookreport.com/buildi=
ng.html
> > cook@cookreport.com                    Index to 6 years of COOK =
Report, how to
> > subscribe, exec summaries, special reports, gloss at http://www.cookrep=
ort.com
> > ***********************************************************************=
****
> >=20
> > Other people like myself work as volunteers...in all of these debates
> > it is always important to try to make a list of the people and then
> > also give an estimate of how much they are being paid per hour to
> > work on this stuff...
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > -
> > Jim Fleming
> > Unir Corporation
> > IBC, Tortola, BVI
> >=20
>=20


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Regards,
Tom
  ________________________________________________________________________
 |   "The Egg Domain"    |       "An engineer without a manager,          | 
 |    tomg@egg.com       |        is like a fish without a bicycle."      |
 | http://www.egg.com/   |                                                |
 |                       |                                                |


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From - Tue May 19 16:35:01 1998
Message-Id: <00001943@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:24:39 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: ARIN Force One -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:15:36 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: ARIN Force One -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822

Received: from meson (1Cust36.tnt14.atl2.da.uu.net [153.36.92.36])
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     Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:29:29 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199804161629.LAA24462@smtp2.mailsrvcs.net>
Reply-To: <abenhase@gte.net>
From: "Andrew M. Benhase" <abenhase@gte.net>
To: "Jim Fleming" <JimFleming@DOORSTEP.UNETY.NET>,
        "'Kim Hubbard'" <kimh@INTERNIC.NET>
Cc: <arin-council@arin.net>, <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Gordon Cook'" <cook@netaxs.com>,
        "'Dave Crocker'" <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>,
        "'Doug Humphrey'" <doug@good.joss.com>,
        "'Dan Steinberg'" <dstein@TRAVEL-NET.COM>,
        "'Don Heath'" <heath@isoc.org>, "'ietf@ns.ietf.org'" <ietf@ietf.org>,
        <Ira Magaziner>, "'Karl Auerbach'" <karl@cavebear.com>,
        "'Karl Denninger'" <karl@mcs.net>,
        "'Ken Fockler'" <ken.fockler@sympatico.ca>,
        "'Richard J. Sexton'" <richard@sexton.com>,
        "'Scott Bradner'" <sob@harvard.edu>,
        "'Steve Wolff'" <swolff@cisco.com>, "'vinton g. cerf'" <vcerf@MCI.NET>
Subject: RE: ARIN Force One
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:21:44 -0400
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You know Jim,

Your commentaries are amusing at some very low
primate levels, and would ultimately be better
served (and commented upon) on the alt.fan.comedy
newsgroup. Give it a rest would you, and leave
this list to more relevant issues... I am quite
certain that everyone here agrees with me.

Anyone else who feels this way let me know , and I
will make a motion to have him removed from the
listserver.

Regards,

Andrew M. Benhase
Executive Technology Consultant
Office: 407-725-6186
Fax:    407-726-8925
Email:  abenhase@gte.net
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Fleming
[mailto:JimFleming@DOORSTEP.UNETY.NET]
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 1998 11:24 AM
> To: 'Kim Hubbard'
> Cc: 'arin-council@arin.net';
'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'; 'Gordon Cook'; 'Dave
> Crocker'; 'Doug Humphrey'; 'Dan Steinberg'; 'Don
Heath';
> 'ietf@ns.ietf.org';
'Ira Magaziner'; 'Karl Auerbach';
> 'Karl Denninger'; 'Ken Fockler'; 'Richard J.
Sexton'; 'Scott Bradner';
> 'Steve Wolff'; 'vinton g. cerf'
> Subject: ARIN Force One
>
>
>
> Kim,
>
> Is it true that ARIN is constructing a 747
> called "ARIN Force One" ?
>
> I hear it will be able to carry the ARIN Board,
the
> advisors and the "press" (like Gordon Cook).
>
> I also heard that it will be equipped to be
capable
> of mid-air refueling and will have servers and
satellite
> communications links to the Space Shuttle and
MIR.
>
> What is that going to cost ?
> Do you think that you could get by with a used
707 ?
>
> Will "ARIN Force One" be ready for the next
NANOG meeting
> or the IETF meeting in Chicago ? You could sell
tickets and
> give tours and raise money to help fund the IANA
Inc.
>
> -
> Jim Fleming
> Unir Corporation
> IBC, Tortola, BVI
>



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From - Tue May 19 16:35:02 1998
Message-Id: <00001941@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:24:44 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: ARIN Force One -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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-K
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:15:42 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: ARIN Force One -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822

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Reply-To: <abenhase@gte.net>
From: "Andrew M. Benhase" <abenhase@gte.net>
To: "Jim Fleming" <jrf@doorstep.unety.net>, <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>,
        <kimh@INTERNIC.NET>, <richard@sexton.com>
Cc: <arin-council@arin.net>, <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>, <cook@netaxs.com>,
        <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>, <doug@good.joss.com>,
        <dstein@TRAVEL-NET.COM>, <heath@isoc.org>, <ietf@ietf.org>,
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Enough said...this is exactly what I mean;
obviously others do not feel the same way that I
do....

Possibly the first iteration was amusing, but Jim
just can not seem to stop himself there. He has to
continue until he gets people annoyed.

-Andrew

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Fleming
[mailto:jrf@doorstep.unety.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 1998 1:00 PM
> To: abenhase@gte.net;
JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net; kimh@INTERNIC.NET;
> richard@sexton.com
> Cc: arin-council@arin.net; BBURR@ntia.doc.gov;
cook@netaxs.com;
> dcrocker@brandenburg.com; doug@good.joss.com;
dstein@TRAVEL-NET.COM;
> heath@isoc.org; ietf@ietf.org;
Ira Magaziner;
> karl@cavebear.com; karl@mcs.net;
ken.fockler@sympatico.ca;
> sob@harvard.edu; swolff@cisco.com; vcerf@MCI.NET
> Subject: RE: ARIN Force One
>
>
> If the Board of Directors of ARIN is going
> to be expanded then that should be put into
> the planning for ARIN Force One.
>
> I have suggested to Don Heath that the ISOC
> should probably have a seat on the ARIN Board.
> The ISP/C and CIX may also be good groups to
> recommend people. The CORE registrars could
> be included and maybe some of the other groups
> mentioned in the U.S. Government's Green Paper.
>
> It might also be good to have some members
> from Mexico, South America, Africa and the
> Caribbean. Those are areas that evidently can
> be reached via ARIN Force One, although I do
> not think there is any place to land it in
> the Caribbean. I will check.
>
> Giving ARIN control over all of the IP addresses
> via the IN-ADDR.ARPA domain names is like
handing
> a small group all of the rights to oil-wells
> around the world. It seems prudent to expand
> the Board that oversees that group to make
> sure people's interests are served.
>
> Jim Fleming
>



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