1              U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

            2                 BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT

            3         CALIFORNIA DESERT DISTRICT ADVISORY COUNCIL

            4

            5

            6

            7

            8
                        REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
            9

           10

           11

           12   LOCATION:           HERITAGE INN & SUITES
                                    2050 N. Norma
           13                       Ridgecrest, California 93555

           14
                DATE AND TIME:      Saturday, November 15, 2008
           15                       8 a.m. to 3:57 p.m.

           16
                REPORTED BY:        JUDITH W. GILLESPIE, CSR, RPR
           17                       (No. 3710)

           18
                JOB NO.:            67620JG
           19

           20

           21

           22

           23

           24

           25
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1                   A P P E A R A N C E S

            2
                MEMBERS PRESENT:             REPRESENTING
            3
                  CHAIRMAN DON MABEN         Elected Official
            4
                  GEARY HUND                 National/Regional
            5                                Environmental Protection

            6     RANDY BANIS                Public-at-Large

            7     JAMES FITZPATRICK          Public-at-Large

            8     MEG GROSSGLASS             Public-at-Large

            9     THOMAS ACUNA               Transportation/Rights of
                                                  Way
           10     DINAH O. SHUMWAY           Non-Renewable
                                                  Resources
           11     RICHARD HOLIDAY            Recreation

           12     RON SCHILLER               Recreation

           13     RICHARD RUDNICK            Renewable Resources

           14     PATRICK LLOYD GUNN         Wildlife

           15
                STAFF PRESENT:
           16
                  DIRECTOR STEVE BORCHARD, California Desert District
           17     JACK HAMBY, Associate District Manager, CDD
                  STEVE RAZO, Deputy District Mgr, Outreach, CDD
           18     DAVID BRIERY, Public Affairs Specialist, CDD
                  ALAN STEIN, Deputy District Manager, Resources, CDD
           19     GREG MILLER, Alternate Energy Program Manager, CDD
                  ROB WAIWOOD, Geologist, CDD
           20     SUE ROCHA, Deputy Fire Management Officer, CDD
                  JENNIFER WOHLGEMUTH, Staff Assistant, CDD
           21     WILLIAM (MICKEY) QUILLMAN, Barstow Field Office
                       Resources Chief
           22     MICHAEL AHRENS, Needles Field Office Acting Manager
                  HECTOR VILLALOBOS, Ridgecrest Field Office Manager
           23     VICKI WOOD, El Centro Field Office Manager
                  JOHN KALISH, Palm Springs Field Office Manager
           24     TERRY ALLEN, Law Enforcement Ranger
                  DANIEL STEWARD, Resources Chief
           25
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1                        I-N-D-E-X
                ITEM                                           PAGE
            2   Welcome/Pledge of Allegiance (Chair)             4
                       Introductions                             4
            3
                Twentynine Palms Land Withdrawal Update         13
            4     (William Mickey Quillman)

            5   Summary of Field Tour                           31

            6          Approve July 25 Meeting Transcripts      39
                       Review Agenda                            39
            7
                Public Comment For Items Not on Agenda          40
            8

            9   State Director's Report (Kristin Hoggan)        53
                District Manager's Report (Steve Borchard)      74
           10
                Morning Break                                   99
           11
                Council Reports/Council Renewable Letter (DAC)  99
           12
                Field Office Summary Reports                   131
           13     Council Questions to Written Reports

           14   Lunch Break                                    152

           15   Current Status of Aggregate Mining in CDD      156
                  (Rob Waiwood)
           16
                Renewable Energy Program Update (Miller)       181
           17
                Firewood & Off-Highway Vehicle Noise Issues    205
           18     (Terry Allen)

           19   Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area Trash      210
                  (Daniel Steward)
           20
                Afternoon Break                                216
           21
                Fire Planning Update (Sue Rocha)               216
           22
                Public Comments                                230
           23
                Wrap-Up and Summary (Chair)                    248
           24     Selection of Next Meeting Location and Agenda

           25   Adjournment                                    256
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   Ridgecrest, CA             Saturday, November 15, 2008

            2

            3                   P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

            4

            5

            6                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Welcome to the DAC

            7   meeting.  On behalf of my colleague Tom Davis, I want

            8   to welcome you to Ridgecrest and Eastern Kern County.

            9   We will begin today's meeting with a pledge led by

           10   Mr. Ron Schiller.

           11                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  No mikes today?

           12                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  You have to speak up.

           13   I know you have a great personality.

           14                 (Pledge of Allegiance.)

           15                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I will have to really

           16   try.  My name is Ron Schiller.  I have been on the DAC

           17   now for six years.  This happens to be the end of my

           18   appointment in December the 31st of this year.  This

           19   will probably be my last meeting.  I live here in

           20   Ridgecrest, and I have been very active in multiple

           21   use and access issues for quite a number of years.

           22   Most of the folks around here know me.  That's pretty

           23   much it.

           24                 MEMBER GUNN:  I'm Lloyd Gunn.  This is

           25   my first meeting with the Desert Advisory Council.
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   I'm a member of the Society For Conservation of

            2   Bighorn Sheep.  But I also have been doing volunteer

            3   work with BLM for many years.  I'm out in the desert

            4   quite a bit.  And I'm honored to be part of the Desert

            5   Advisory Council.

            6                 MEMBER HUND:  Hi.  I'm Geary Hund, and I

            7   represent conservation groups on the DAC.  I'm about

            8   midway through my three-year term.  It's been really a

            9   great experience thus far, including yesterday's field

           10   trip and barbecue afterwards.  I work for a state

           11   agency called the Coachella Valley Mountains

           12   Conservancy.  We primarily acquire land in the

           13   Coachella Valley and surrounding areas for

           14   conservation.  And I also do volunteer work for my

           15   former employer, the Wilderness Society, as an

           16   advocate for federal legislation, including wilderness

           17   preservation.

           18                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  I'm a geologist,

           19   economic geology.  Terramins Incorporated, Mining and

           20   Geology, Economic Geology Consultants.  I am currently

           21   the chairman of the Mojave Desert Advisory Council.  I

           22   am trying to relinquish that position.  I have been

           23   the chairman/representative for many years on the

           24   educational committee of the Society of Mining

           25   Engineers, Southern California Mining Section, about
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   300 members.  I have been in the mining industry for

            2   about four years, and I am a new member of the DAC and

            3   this is my second meeting.

            4                 MEMBER BANIS:  Good morning.  Randy

            5   Banis.  I'm representing the public-at-large, at the

            6   second meeting here at my term for the DAC.  My wife

            7   and I run an Internet development firm for large

            8   publishers, East Coast publishers, in Lancaster,

            9   California.  And we live just on the edge of the

           10   desert in Leona Valley, California.  I'm a member of

           11   the Ridgecrest Steering Committee, Hector's mini-DAC,

           12   so to speak, and that's where I had the privilege of

           13   meeting most of the folks here in the audience and

           14   working with them here in the Ridgecrest area and with

           15   Ron and others here on the board.

           16              So it's nice to see this meeting coming

           17   into Ridgecrest and seeing the friendly faces and

           18   folks that I used to see every month.  Good to see you

           19   all again.  On a couple TRT's along the way.

           20   Hopefully they won't load me down with too many more.

           21                 MEMBER ACUNA:  I'm Tom Acuna.  I

           22   represent the transportation and rights-of-way.  I

           23   work with Sempra Utilities, and that's Southern

           24   California Gas and San Diego Gas and Electric.

           25              What my team does, we prepare environmental
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   documentation for applications to regulatory agencies.

            2   I'm finding this team, this advisory group wonderful

            3   to work with.  BLM is great to work with and great

            4   relationships with them.

            5              I want to thank Richard Rudnick for that

            6   great barbecue we had yesterday.

            7              (Applause from the audience.)

            8              And of course, the BLM team for taking us

            9   up Surprise Canyon and helping us along the top of the

           10   canyon.

           11                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I'm Steve Borchard

           12   for the BLM, and these folks on the Council here are

           13   gracious enough to allow me to take an honored seat at

           14   the table with them, and I serve as the federal

           15   designated official taking advice and recommendations

           16   from the Advisory Council.

           17                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Don Maben, Second

           18   District Supervisor in Kern County, and I am

           19   representing the local representatives on the DAC.

           20                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  Richard Rudnick,

           21   part-time barbecuer.  We did have a lot of fun, and

           22   thank you guys for all your help.  Thanks to Hector

           23   and his crew and everybody that participated.

           24              I'm a cattle rancher on the desert.  I have

           25   dealt with, especially the Ridgecrest BLM, for 30-plus
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   years, and I have had a great relationship.  I was on

            2   the DAC -- we didn't call it then in the 1980s -- I

            3   think it was the second council that was formed.  And

            4   I have always had an interest in the desert and love

            5   it and would like to see it prosper.  Thank you.

            6                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I'm from ORBA,

            7   public-at-large.  I'm sorry I'm late.  Really sorry.

            8                 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  What is ORBA?

            9                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  It's a great

           10   association of off-road businesses, off-road

           11   businesses.  So if there are no places for people to

           12   ride or drive their off-road vehicles, my members

           13   can't sell their products.  And I ride a dirt bike and

           14   have been going to the desert since the early

           15   eighties.

           16                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  I'm a recreationalist.

           17   I'm a member of the TRT for the Imperial Sand Dunes

           18   Recreation Area.  Multiple board member for the

           19   American Sand Association.

           20                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Jim Fitzpatrick.

           21   This is my first meeting.  I am currently -- I

           22   represent public-at-large and am the deputy director

           23   of the California Film Commission.  I oversee all the

           24   film permitting on parks, beaches, freeways, and

           25   prisons and government buildings in the state of
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   California.  Prior to that, I was eight years as a

            2   lobbyist for the Motion Picture Association for the

            3   studios, and during that time I helped craft and lobby

            4   for PL 106206, which is the public law that allows

            5   Departments of the Interior -- the BLM, Parks Service,

            6   Fish and Wildlife -- and also in agriculture, the U.S.

            7   Forest Service to collect fees, cost recovery and

            8   location fees and keep about 90 percent of that in the

            9   park, which was not true previous to that time.  This

           10   gives the parks an incentive to want to help filming,

           11   which is an economic driver in California, although

           12   not everybody sees it that way.

           13              So before that, I filmed as an assistant

           14   director and location manager since the early

           15   eighties, at least in the desert, and actually lived

           16   in Cathedral City while doing a series and did much of

           17   my work south of Twentynine Palms all the way to the

           18   Mexican border.

           19                 MEMBER CHARLTON:  My name is Dave

           20   Charlton, and I'm renewable resources and represent

           21   California Native Plant Societies.  This is my fifth

           22   year and the last meeting.  I missed the last meeting

           23   because I was at an international botanical

           24   conference.  I'm sorry I didn't make the meeting

           25   yesterday, but I just had hip replacement surgery two
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   weeks ago.  I'm lucky to even be here.

            2              I am also on the TRT and will continue on

            3   with the Dumont Dunes TRT.  I am a biologist at

            4   Edwards Air Force Base, where I have worked since

            5   1989.  I spent five years at Fort Irwin and did most

            6   of the science for the expansion.  Apparently almost

            7   the only vegetation science that's been done in the

            8   last 20 years in the Mojave Desert, it's been done by

            9   me, and it's summarized in third edition of

           10   Terrestrial Vegetation of California.  So I was

           11   surprised to find that out a couple of weeks ago when

           12   I was leafing through the book.  But that's primarily

           13   what I have been up to.

           14                 MR. RAZO:  Steve Razo, external affairs,

           15   California Desert District, and I would like to

           16   introduce David C. Briery, who has just come on staff,

           17   it's been a couple months now.  He is assistant public

           18   affairs officer, so you will be seeing him involved a

           19   lot with the work of external affairs in the

           20   California Desert District.

           21                 MS. HOGGAN:  Kristin Minster-Hoggan.

           22   I'm doing work in the congressional and legislative

           23   areas for the director.

           24                 DR. GILLESPIE:  I'm a visitor.  I'm the

           25   husband of the court reporter.
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1                 MR. BELTRAN:  Tom Beltran.  I'm with the

            2   California Native Plant Society, San Diego.  I'm here

            3   as an observer.

            4                 MR. MATTHEWS:  David Matthews, general

            5   public and oldtimer.  I have been trying to make these

            6   meetings, but it's been difficult recently.  I'm also

            7   here representing my grand kids and their future,

            8   which is rapidly -- they are not kids anymore.  They

            9   are becoming adults.  --

           10                 MR. STEIN:  Al Stein, chief resources

           11   manager for BLM down in Moreno Valley.

           12                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  I'm Hector Villalobos,

           13   field manager at Ridgecrest.

           14                 MR. SMITH:  Steve Smith, retired BLM

           15   employee.  Worked out here for 32 years for BLM at the

           16   Ridgecrest office.

           17                 MR. HILLIER:  I'm Gerry Hillier.  I

           18   guess I almost qualify as an oldtimer, don't I, Dave?

           19   I'm here today as a consultant with San Bernardino

           20   County, and I also serve as executive director of

           21   State and Local Government Authority, which is a

           22   four-state regional group involved in Endangered

           23   Species Act issues.

           24                 MR. STEWARD:  Daniel Steward, resources

           25   branch chief for the El Centro field office.
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1                 MS. WOOD:  Vicki Wood, El Centro.

            2                 MR. QUILLMAN:  William Quillman, chief

            3   of resources, Barstow BLM, and acting field manager

            4   while Roxie Trost is on vacation.

            5                 MR. AHRENS:  Mike Ahrens, recreational

            6   wilderness branch chief and acting field manager of

            7   the Needles field office.

            8                 MR. KALISH:  John Kalish, field manager

            9   in Palm Springs for the BLM.

           10                 MR. HAMBY:  Jack Hamby, associate

           11   district manager out of Moreno Valley.

           12                 MR. WALDHEIM:  Ed Waldheim, Friends of

           13   Jawbone and in partnership with John.

           14                 MR. SELLARD:  Michael Sellard, now

           15   Mojave Rands Energy out of California City.  Enjoy my

           16   Jeep in the desert and enjoy the environmental side of

           17   the desert but also the Jeep side.  And we need to

           18   find a good balance with energy, as well.  I'm

           19   involved with Ridgecrest Steering Committee, but not a

           20   representative.  And I am representing business, my

           21   family, my grand kids and friends and family that like

           22   to go out and enjoy the desert.

           23                 MR. MADDUX:  Bill Maddux.  And member of

           24   BLM Steering Committee here in Ridgecrest.

           25                 MR. STEWART:  John Stewart, Natural
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   Resource Consultant for California Four-Wheel Drive

            2   Clubs.

            3                 MR. DUNLOP:  Chris Dunlop, California

            4   Motor Safety Program, Division of Motorcycle Safety

            5   Foundation.  Also active duty over at China Lake.

            6                 MR. LATIMER:  John Latimer, dirt bike

            7   enthusiast.  I love the desert and I'll see what you

            8   guys have to say.

            9                 MR. WALDHEIM:  Ed Waldheim, president of

           10   Trail Users Coalition, on the Advisory Steering

           11   Committee in Ridgecrest, on the DAC for Dumont Dunes.

           12   Past commissioner for the OHV program, State of

           13   California.

           14                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Thank you all for

           15   coming out on a nice Saturday morning.

           16              Next item on the agenda is a summary of the

           17   field tour.  Who wants to take that?  I'll exercise

           18   the prerogative of the chair and take one item out of

           19   order.  Twentynine Palms Land Withdrawal Update.

           20   Mickey, if you could do that, please.

           21                 MR. QUILLMAN:  I have given everybody a

           22   copy of my slides.  I don't know if they are on the

           23   computer or not.  But I appreciate your indulgence.  I

           24   have a family crisis that I need to deal with this

           25   morning, so in my handouts there is a copy of the
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   Barstow quarterly report.  There is also a copy of the

            2   NOI, the Notice of Intent to do an EIS for the

            3   Twentynine Palms expansion.  And the last page of my

            4   handout actually has the schedule of the three public

            5   hearings that are going to happen.  They are scheduled

            6   for December 3 in Twentynine Palms, December 4 in

            7   Victorville, and December 5, that's a Friday, at the

            8   Ontario Convention Center.

            9              Next slide.  This is the Barstow field

           10   office.  Some of these slides are the ones from the

           11   last quarterly report.  As we go through them, we will

           12   address some issues.

           13              Next slide.  This is a map of the Barstow

           14   area.  You can see we have about 3.2 million acres we

           15   deal with.  Population:  Los Angeles is 14 million

           16   people, Antelope Valley/Victorville area, 300,000

           17   people; Pahrump/Las Vegas, a million people; San

           18   Diego, 2 million people, all within a three-hour drive

           19   of the desert.

           20              There are five OHV areas within four hours,

           21   two are within three hours, and one is within two

           22   hours of the L.A. area.

           23              The recreation programs include wilderness,

           24   nonmotorized, special recreation permits, volunteers,

           25   OHV vehicles, operations and maintenance.
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1              It's a very diverse area, five areas set

            2   aside for OHV area:  Diverse terrain, Dumont Dunes, El

            3   Mirage, lots of places to go ride.

            4              There are the recreation areas:  Dumont

            5   Dunes, Rasor, Johnson Valley, Stoddard Valley, El

            6   Mirage, and back country routes throughout the Barstow

            7   field office.

            8              Dumont Dunes, 84 acres of riding area, you

            9   can ride the slide.  I was out at Dumont Dunes this

           10   last Halloween weekend and they tell me that the

           11   attendance at Dumont over this last Halloween weekend

           12   was down by 30 to 40 percent from last year, and I

           13   guess that's a reflection of the economy where you are

           14   going.

           15              And that's just a picture of Competition

           16   Hill out there.

           17              El Mirage, we just had our grand opening on

           18   the 25th of October after three years of arguing or

           19   more than that in trying to get this building put

           20   together.

           21              This is a picture of Roxie Trost, our

           22   Barstow field office manager, Ed Waldheim, being

           23   presented a certificate by Brad Mitzelfelt, First

           24   District Supervisor of San Bernardino County.

           25              Probably the most important thing we are
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   going to talk about today is Johnson Valley.  It's

            2   188,000 acres; it's the largest off-road vehicle area

            3   in the country.

            4              Twentynine Palms has a contiguous border

            5   with the eastern edge of Johnson Valley and in August,

            6   they submitted a segregation request and they actually

            7   -- next slide -- they submitted a segregation request,

            8   and they basically drew a box around their

            9   installation and segregated 422,000 acres around that

           10   area.  What does segregation mean?  The BLM can no

           11   longer issue any long-term activities.  We can't issue

           12   rights-of-way for mining; we can't issue rights-of-way

           13   for solar or wind energy during this segregation

           14   period, which is currently for two years.

           15              During this two-year period the Marines are

           16   going to look at where they want to expand, what will

           17   fit best with their intended maneuvers, and what they

           18   need to do to protect our country.  The segregation

           19   request includes the bulk of Johnson Valley off-road

           20   vehicle area.  Next slide?  No more slides.  Well,

           21   there we go.

           22              On the back of your handout, as I alluded

           23   to earlier -- and there is more on the back table for

           24   other people if they need it -- the NOI listed five

           25   alternatives, plus a no-action alternative.  They are
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   going to have three public scoping meetings to address

            2   their purpose and need.  But we had two segregation

            3   meetings where BLM explained our responsibility during

            4   the segregation period, and we -- they were attended

            5   by 150 to 200 people both at the Twentynine Palms

            6   location and about the same number as the Victorville

            7   location.

            8              So basically, in the next two years, the

            9   Marines are going to make their decision as to how

           10   much land they need of that segregated area, whether

           11   they are going to be west into Johnson Valley or east

           12   or a combination of both.  So with that, pending

           13   questions.

           14                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  The NEPA process

           15   will take more than two years.

           16                 MR. QUILLMAN:  The segregation process

           17   is for two years.  Once they figure out what their

           18   alternative is and they start their discussion, then

           19   we will know where they are going to go.  And they

           20   could unsegregate, and then what is going to happen?

           21   I imagine it's going to take five years to get to the

           22   point where they are actually going to get any land.

           23   If you look at Fort Irwin, it took them 20 years to

           24   get the land they needed.

           25                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  So they could extend
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   the segregation period?

            2                 MR. QUILLMAN:  Fort Irwin was extended

            3   seven or eight times.

            4                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  They are just two-

            5   years period by law.

            6                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  So this means in

            7   particular that in the Johnson Valley, no plans of

            8   operations or requests for rights-of-way would be even

            9   considered or just not allowed?

           10                 MR. QUILLMAN:  They won't even consider

           11   anything during the segregation process.

           12                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  No applications?

           13                 MR. QUILLMAN:  No applications for any

           14   long-term activity.  If you are going to have an

           15   off-road vehicle event, that's okay during the

           16   segregation period as long as it's currently acted.

           17   But they will not entertain any mining requests, solar

           18   projects.

           19                 MR. BORCHARD:  We will continue to

           20   process existing applications that are in a processing

           21   phase.  But if there is a wind farm and there is a

           22   wind farm application, those applications we are

           23   processing right now will continue to be processed if

           24   the applicant wishes to go forward.

           25                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Any questions?
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1                 MR. WALDHEIM:  I would like to take this

            2   opportunity on behalf of Daphne Green and the Friends

            3   of El Mirage for the incredible work that Mickey did

            4   to get our Visitor's Center going.  When he came on

            5   board, Roxie turned the whole building project over to

            6   him.  Without his expertise and making do, we would

            7   never have gotten that thing done.  So I personally

            8   want to thank Mickey for making it happen.  A 20-year

            9   project came to fruition because this guy really dug

           10   in and made it happen.  So let's give him a hand.

           11                (Applause from the audience.)

           12                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  I saw a hand in the

           13   back.

           14                 MR. HILLIER:  Gerry Hillier, San

           15   Bernardino County.  From the statement that you and

           16   Steve just made relevant to segregation, you say you

           17   won't process new applications.  But what would the

           18   situation be if there were valid existing rights, for

           19   example, an existing mining claim that the person

           20   wanted to go in and do work on.  Would that be

           21   precluded, the exercise of valid existing rights?

           22                 MR. QUILLMAN:  No.  They can continue to

           23   do anything they have been authorized to do.

           24   Segregation just means we cannot issue any new

           25   rights-of-way for long-term activity, new mining
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   claims.

            2                 MR. HILLIER:  I know that you can't

            3   file.  It's withdrawn.  But with the existing claim if

            4   it's otherwise found to be valid, the right of ingress

            5   and egress is, of course, permitted, isn't it?

            6                 MR. QUILLMAN:  Yes, it is.

            7                 MR. MATTHEWS:  Dave Matthews.  I'm

            8   wondering if there is any way that the public can

            9   provide input to the Marine's planning.

           10                 MR. QUILLMAN:  Absolutely.  That's what

           11   these next three meetings are about.

           12                 MR. MATTHEWS:  Other than that.

           13                 MR. QUILLMAN:  I have been getting

           14   e-mails, so you can send e-mails to me at

           15   William_Quillman@ca.blm.gov or you can go onto the

           16   Marine Corps, Twentynine Palms Marine Corps.  You can

           17   find their Web site, you can make comments via that

           18   way.  You can send comments in writing to the Barstow

           19   BLM office, and the address is on the Web site.

           20                 MR. NOSALA:  Wayne Nosala.  To address

           21   that question, you can go to pfjv.org and there is a

           22   form.  You can download it and print it out, fill it

           23   out, and it goes directly to the Barstow BLM office.

           24   It's pfjv.org.

           25                 MR. HILLIER:  Gerry Hillier, San
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            1   Bernardino County again.  I had hoped this morning

            2   that First District County Supervisor Brad Mitzelfelt

            3   was going to be here.  He is in town.  I just couldn't

            4   find him.  He was expecting it to be on the agenda

            5   later today, so he is not available and I know he did

            6   plan to make some kind of a statement to the Council

            7   relative to the County's involvement.

            8              This is a big deal as far as San Bernardino

            9   County is concerned.  A number of constituents are

           10   very deeply concerned relative to the effects of a

           11   potential Marine Corps expansion to the west.  The

           12   supervisor wrote a fairly comprehensive and I would

           13   characterize it probably as potentially controversial

           14   letter to Senator Feinstein's staff and has been

           15   having meetings with other congressional leadership on

           16   the issue.

           17              We have in front of the County not only the

           18   Marine proposal, but we have continuing discussions --

           19   and I think they have been fairly common knowledge --

           20   relative to further expansion of the Natural

           21   Wilderness Preservation System in the California

           22   desert, sort of the finish of the 1994 California

           23   Desert Protection Act.  And the Fish and Wildlife

           24   Service has issued their revised draft of the Desert

           25   Tortoise Recovery Plan, which basically re-enforced
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            1   and restates the quasi-wilderness preservation system

            2   there established through the conservation areas.  So

            3   you have all these in the air, plus, of course, as

            4   everybody knows, the renewable energy press.

            5              And what Supervisor Mitzelfelt called for

            6   was that all of these things -- none of these things

            7   be looked at in isolation, but rather there really

            8   does need to be a comprehensive look at all of these

            9   and how they balance out so that the constituents and

           10   the Marines and others are taken care of and that

           11   there would be a recognition of all these values.

           12              And I think at this point we still haven't

           13   got a resolution there for the whole Board of

           14   Supervisors to speak on the issue there, but we

           15   probably will have within the next 30 days.  So it

           16   will be probably put forth there with the County's

           17   input.

           18              But at any rate, I think the fundamental

           19   thing is that there are a lot of things in the air and

           20   most of them are for further restriction of public

           21   access in the desert.  And that's what really concerns

           22   the County, and of course, you know, not only the

           23   constituent concerns but filming industry concerns and

           24   others.  If Brad were here -- if he does show up later

           25   today I would hope the Council could make an
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            1   opportunity to hear directly from him.  But I think I

            2   speak safely for him on his behalf that the County is

            3   concerned.  We support -- fully support the military

            4   and the need for the expansion, but we need to look

            5   comprehensively.  I hesitate to use the word "Desert

            6   Plan," but at any rate, these things all have to be

            7   looked at in an integrated scheme and not in isolation

            8   from each other.

            9                 MR. STEWART:  John Stewart, California

           10   Association of Four-Wheel Drive Clubs.

           11              Mickey mentioned one slide that talked

           12   about 14 million people in the L.A. basin area, as far

           13   as population and two million in San Diego County.  I

           14   think it's important to realize that the San Diego to

           15   L.A. basin area is one of the fastest growing areas in

           16   the nation.  In addition, just east across the border

           17   in Clark County, Nevada, is another high growth

           18   demographic where people are moving to.  And these are

           19   people coming into an area looking for a recreation

           20   opportunity.

           21              What Gerry Hillier said, and I support

           22   completely, is we need to look at a comprehensive

           23   overview as to how the recreation demands are going to

           24   be met in conjunction with the requirements of

           25   military and the requirements for mining, for solar
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            1   energy, and all these.  Somehow we have to find a

            2   balance.  And with the rate of growth in that area,

            3   probably a question that should be asked:  Is that the

            4   appropriate place to have live-fire exercises with the

            5   booming metropolitan area so close to that type of

            6   activity?

            7                 MEMBER BANIS:  Thank you.  If I could

            8   touch briefly -- Randy Banis.  I would like to touch

            9   briefly on something that Gerry said in hopes that

           10   Gerry can maybe even correct or clarify.  San

           11   Bernardino County in recent years has taken actions to

           12   restrict the use of off-highway vehicles in the county

           13   on private property.  Is that correct, Gerry, that

           14   there have been ordinances?

           15                 MR. HILLIER:  The Board has passed some

           16   ordinances there dealing with private land.  I can't

           17   speak directly to their content because I haven't been

           18   involved in it, but I am aware that there are -- there

           19   are both concerns from the standpoint of property

           20   owners which the ordinances were intended to respond

           21   to.  And since the ordinances, there have been --

           22   there have been input to the Board relative to access

           23   issues from the off-road vehicle community.

           24              It's my understanding that supervisor's

           25   staff, personal staff is taking another look at it,
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            1   whether there be revision or not.  But I think he is

            2   well aware there is a bit of controversy on the

            3   ordinances.  But they were basically to respond to

            4   trespass use.  And I hesitate to use the word, but on

            5   private land and was -- the constituents were up in

            6   arms relative to some of the private land use issues.

            7                 MEMBER BANIS:  My point would simply be

            8   that that discussions over those ordinances were done

            9   with the expectations and knowledge that there are OHV

           10   areas in San Bernardino County that are appropriate or

           11   most appropriate for OHV activity.  And Johnson Valley

           12   certainly is the most important one there.  And I

           13   think that so many -- so much planning and management

           14   activities have occurred throughout the county and

           15   neighboring counties that are depending on these OHV

           16   areas to be there.  And having it be displaced would

           17   have a detrimental effect on the effectiveness of

           18   implementing policies in those sprawling areas that

           19   are trying to keep peace and quiet in the

           20   neighborhoods.

           21                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Having been involved

           22   in these issues for a long time, it's troubling that

           23   there is always a demand, such as the expansion of

           24   Fort Irwin and now we have the expansion of Twentynine

           25   Palms being proposed.  I have heard of several
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            1   proposed wilderness areas to be "buffer zones" for

            2   military lands.  Now, what concerns me is we've got

            3   areas like Cuddeback where the military has left a

            4   mess.  It seems to me if we are going to start giving

            5   more land, they should go back to clean up areas where

            6   we no longer have access to in those old gunnery

            7   ranges that are closed, like Cuddeback.  Any response

            8   to that?

            9                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  Sounds good to me.

           10                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  How many of these do

           11   we have?  But we have messes out there that they

           12   haven't cleaned up from years and years back.

           13                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  My response is I

           14   think that's an excellent question to bring up during

           15   the expansion process and commenting on the expansion

           16   process, maybe in the context if additional lands are

           17   needed and there are other past lands used for

           18   supporting our nation's military mission that aren't

           19   needed anymore, then shouldn't those lands be

           20   evaluated and cleanup started so that they would be

           21   available for additional uses?

           22                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Is it too much to

           23   ask maybe to have the military come to our next DAC

           24   meeting and answer some of our questions?  I don't

           25   know if that's out of line or not.
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  They were in our

            2   Riverside meeting.

            3                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  We didn't know quite

            4   as much as we know now.

            5                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Since this issue

            6   will be with us for years to come, maybe it should be

            7   suggested as a standing agenda item where we request

            8   representation at each of our meetings, which may be a

            9   way to move forward now.  It's going to be an issue

           10   that's going to be on our minds for a long time to

           11   come.

           12                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I like that idea.

           13   Thank you.

           14                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Jim Fitzpatrick.

           15   Public-at-large.  Two specific questions:  No. 1, am I

           16   to understand that the segregation process can go on

           17   ad infinitum with no limit?

           18                 MR. QUILLMAN:  It can be renewed in

           19   two-year increments for as long as -- I don't know,

           20   Steve.  Is there a limit?

           21                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I don't know if

           22   there is a limit or not.

           23                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Can someone

           24   investigate?

           25                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  We can and get back.
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            1                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Okay.  Because I

            2   have parallels with the BRAC process which didn't have

            3   sunsets on it and dragged on forever.  This could

            4   certainly be a similar situation where you tie

            5   something up unreasonably, I think.

            6              No. 2, for my own devil in the details,

            7   when you say you can't consider new projects that are

            8   of long-term duration, what is that?  For example, if

            9   I have a film company that comes out there and they

           10   want to build temporary things for a month or so, are

           11   they going to be denied because of this segregation

           12   process?

           13                 MR. QUILLMAN:  No.  What we are talking

           14   about is preventing -- we are not accepting new

           15   applications for wind or solar plants or new

           16   applications for mining rights-of-way.

           17                 MR. FITZGERALD:  So permanent?

           18                 MR. QUILLMAN:  But short-term, less than

           19   two-year duration projects would certainly be

           20   considered.

           21                 MR. NOSALA:  I just want to enter into

           22   the public record if at all possible, if there is

           23   enough pressure, to have the BLM deny the withdrawal

           24   application on the west side of the base.

           25                 MR. BORCHARD:  A point of clarification.
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            1   The authority to grant a withdrawal for military

            2   purposes that exceeds 5,000 acres is not a BLM

            3   decision.  It's a congressional decision.  So this

            4   particular exercise we are going through actually

            5   falls under the Engle Act.  And the question of

            6   withdrawal will be considered by Congress, not BLM.

            7                 MR. WALDHEIM:  I would like to

            8   respectfully request by the end of the day that this

            9   DAC come up with a very specific motion in dealing

           10   with the Twentynine Palms segregation for the Johnson

           11   Valley.  And what I am looking for from you is to make

           12   a motion that you support the Twentynine Palms

           13   expansion, but respectfully request they go east and

           14   they protect the public's access to Johnson Valley.

           15   That has been given to the public during 17 years of

           16   management planning, and to have the rug just pulled

           17   out from underneath them right now is criminal.

           18              And so I think a strong message needs to be

           19   sent from the DAC board members that though we respect

           20   the military wanting expansion, there are other ways

           21   for them to go, as Ron mentioned.  There are other

           22   areas, other things that they can do.  So I think by

           23   the end of the day it would be kind of cool if you

           24   could do that after you listen to Supervisor Brad

           25   Mitzelfelt, and before you adjourn come up with a
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            1   strong message that can be entered into the record.

            2   We certainly would appreciate that.

            3                 MR. HILLIER:  Gerry Hillier, San

            4   Bernardino County.

            5              Just to correct one thing for the record,

            6   Johnson Valley was affirmed as an off-highway vehicle

            7   area in 1980 in the Desert Plan.  So as far as being

            8   an integral part of that statement, that's gone on now

            9   for 28 years.  The Desert Plan was signed off on by

           10   the Secretary in December of 1980.

           11              Actually, the formal designation, and I

           12   guess respecting by BLM of the use in there goes back

           13   to 1972, which is even a much longer period, 36 years,

           14   with the original ICMP, the Interim Critical

           15   Management Plan for off-highway vehicles.  So Johnson

           16   Valley really has been out there as a public-use area

           17   for almost 40 years.  It was obviously an informal

           18   area and then in '72, BLM did its first planning.  So

           19   Johnson Valley was so designated formally in that,

           20   along with several other areas, several of which have

           21   gone bye-bye.  And so that is really a very -- what Ed

           22   says is very solid in terms of its designation as a

           23   public recreation area.

           24              I might also add for the record, because of

           25   that use pattern and because of the recognition of
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            1   public use, when Fish and Wildlife Service designated

            2   critical habitat for desert tortoise in 1994, while

            3   they did embrace several areas that have proved to be

            4   somewhat controversial in terms of critical habitat --

            5   by definition that's areas that are not part of

            6   otherwise protected systems -- they excluded

            7   specifically Johnson Valley.

            8              There are tortoise populations in there, in

            9   remote areas.  And all that is known.  But it was not

           10   deemed to be critical habitat, while the grazing

           11   allotments and all those north of the Ord Mountain area

           12   were included in that critical habitat.  So there has

           13   been an institutional framework established which

           14   recognized and respected the public use values in

           15   Johnson Valley.

           16                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  If no further

           17   questions, thank you, Mickey.

           18                 MR. QUILLMAN:  I want to personally 

           19   thank the DAC for the opportunity to be here.  And the

           20   field trip yesterday was fantastic.  Thank you so

           21   much.

           22                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Good luck, Mickey.

           23   Thank you.

           24                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  This brings us back to

           25   the schedule.  Summary of the field tour.  BLM staff.
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                      GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.


            1   Are you the chief staff?

            2                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I think our tour

            3   leader, Hector Villalobos, will give us an excellent

            4   summary and will facilitate an informative discussion.

            5                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  For those of you that

            6   weren't with us on the field trip yesterday, we

            7   started yesterday at a location called Isham Canyon.

            8   Isham Canyon is one of the dispersed -- one of many

            9   dispersed trails that we have in the desert.  We

           10   probably have approximately, I would say hundreds,

           11   maybe a thousand miles worth of -- not that exactly,

           12   but routes that are outside of the more heavily used

           13   OHV areas that extend from the Ridgecrest area all the

           14   way to the Nevada border near Fish Valley.

           15              So this is an example of the kind of

           16   recreation that a lot of people enjoy in four-wheel-

           17   drive vehicles.  Some of the roads are very

           18   challenging.  I think what you saw yesterday was one

           19   of the more challenging routes for four-wheel drive

           20   enthusiasts.

           21              Some of the other routes are standard where

           22   four-wheel drive vehicles can negotiate without any

           23   problems, and they really provide a lot of access for

           24   the desert people that like and enjoy the desert,

           25   especially in areas where they want to get away from a
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            1   few thousand people recreating.  They want to get

            2   away, go out hunting, and explore some back-country

            3   areas.  We had some old mining areas that we are

            4   trying to make more -- well, we are trying to make

            5   these safe and prompt people's awareness of the safety

            6   concerns we have out there.

            7              But basically a lot of neat, dispersed type

            8   of four-wheel-drive activity.  But it also provides

            9   access to -- what I like about in some of these areas,

           10   they take you to a trail head and from there you can

           11   put on your boots and walk for quite a while.  So you

           12   got a little example of that at Surprise Canyon where

           13   you go there and you drive on a little four-wheel

           14   drive or sort of a rough, rutted road.  You get to

           15   Chris Wicht Camp and put on your boots or tennis shoes

           16   and get out there and take a look at the area there.

           17              At Surprise Canyon, you know that old route

           18   was washed out in many places and the situation now is

           19   that we are doing a planning effort there to either

           20   reopen that route the way it was used in the past, or

           21   look at several alternatives.  Or, you know, the other

           22   option is to leave it like it is right now.  And we

           23   are working with the Park Service on the

           24   environmental review of that.  And it's been quite a

           25   controversial situation.  I didn't necessarily want to
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            1   get into the controversies yesterday.  I think

            2   everyone is aware of them.

            3              So I wanted -- my goal was to just to get

            4   people out there, take a look and see, and in your own

            5   mind kind of be thinking of what the future situation

            6   is for Surprise Canyon.  And that was my goal for the

            7   DAC is to show you the situation there and show you

            8   that kind of recreation.  And then for your own mind,

            9   kind of think where we are going when we get going

           10   with this process again.

           11              We finished our tour at the Pinnacles, the

           12   Trona Pinnacles, which I sometimes call Tent Rocks

           13   because I get my mind mixed up on areas that I enjoy.

           14   But Trona Pinnacles is a very unique location where we

           15   have these geologic formations that have been used as

           16   backdrops in a whole bunch of movies and commercials.

           17   It's a very popular destination.  It's called a

           18   National Natural Landmark, and it's existed for a long

           19   time.  In fact, some of the folks that have filmed out

           20   there have helped us mitigate some of the impacts that

           21   we get from the public visiting the area.

           22              There were -- one time in one of the movies

           23   we had lots of trails and people actually wanted to

           24   just drive up to the Pinnacles for some reason and get

           25   out and take a picture and get back in their car and
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            1   drive away.  So they were leaving a lot of tire tracks

            2   in that area.  So when a few movie companies came in,

            3   they actually did some restoration of those areas and

            4   put rocks back into place where they kind of deter

            5   that kind of activity.

            6              But we really enjoyed the Pinnacles and if

            7   you really want to get a feeling for it sometime, go

            8   out there during the middle of summer and you will

            9   feel that heat.  And I have done that with my kids

           10   just for the heck of it.  We go to kind of experience

           11   what it might be like out there.  And it is -- I think

           12   when we went out there one time it was 116 degrees and

           13   we darn near fell over after just walking about 50

           14   yards.  Let's get back in the car and get out of here.

           15   But it's a real unique place.

           16              We had a great barbecue and I really

           17   appreciate Mr. Rudnick insisting that we have a

           18   barbecue.  And it was planned that maybe we would go

           19   over to the other side of the valley after our field

           20   trip -- not the valley but on the other side by the

           21   eastern Sierras.  As it was, we were there until I

           22   don't know how late we were.

           23                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Past my bedtime.

           24                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  But everybody got home

           25   and everybody had a great time, I think.  And so I
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            1   appreciate everybody's participation in that.  Any

            2   questions for me?  I will be glad to answer them?

            3                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Thanks again.

            4                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Did we give Richard

            5   a round of applause?

            6               (Applause from the audience.)

            7                 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  My name is

            8   Cynthia (unintelligible).  It was declared an ACEC

            9   back in 1980.  I believe it was 1983, was it?

           10                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  The Pinnacles?

           11                 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Are there any

           12   plans to upgrade it in the future?

           13                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  No.  It's also a

           14   different designation.  It may also be an ACEC or an

           15   area of critical environmental concern.  No, we are

           16   not planning to change any designations there.  But

           17   it's also called a National Natural Landmark.  And I

           18   had somebody from the Park Service one day that called

           19   me up and they wanted to inspect the area.  And -- why

           20   is the Park Service coming out to that area?  But

           21   there is some kind of tie to the national designation

           22   to the Park Service, but they don't manage it, they

           23   just kind of oversee, I think in general, national-

           24   type things.

           25                 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Thank you.
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            1                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Any other questions?

            2                 MEMBER HUND:  Geary Hund.  I happened to

            3   find a plaque out there when I was walking around the

            4   Pinnacles that indicated that there was Federal

            5   legislation passed on August 21, 1935 that created

            6   that category of National Natural Landmark and just

            7   thought I would share that.  And apparently the Park

            8   Service does have some kind of role in administering

            9   them but not managing them.

           10              And secondly, I was wondering if you could

           11   share with the group how the Pinnacles were formed

           12   because I found that to be pretty fascinating.

           13                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  The Pinnacles were

           14   formed -- they were under water.  They were under

           15   water.  There were seeps, certain seeps that were

           16   creating those Pinnacles, very similar to what we've

           17   seen at Mono Lake.  And so there are -- there is

           18   also -- it also encourages the microbes to seek these

           19   different -- these little different areas and these

           20   microbes together with the seeps that are occurring

           21   there start to grow these formations.  So actually you

           22   have a little bit of a microbe action occurring

           23   underwater where there are seeps.  And it's favorable

           24   to that kind of growth.

           25              And they kind of form those Pinnacles the
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            1   way they are, so if you take a close look at them,

            2   even if you were to look at them under a little bit of

            3   a hand lens, you would see some kind of funny

            4   formations in that rock, which is a tufa formation.

            5   And it's basically calcium carbonate is what's being

            6   formed right there at the bottom of the lake.  So it

            7   might be a little bit warmer water that might be

            8   seeping through the bottom of the lake.

            9              I know I put on my little travelogue, I

           10   think that area was several hundred feet under water

           11   at one time, and we've had -- through geologic time

           12   it's dried up, and what you saw at Searles Lake, the

           13   company that is actually mining in situ, in other

           14   words, solution mining of some of the minerals that

           15   are under the lake.  So a lot of interesting

           16   formations that occurred right there, and those are

           17   the very unique -- don't-happen-everywhere-type

           18   formation.

           19                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Just as a side note --

           20   this is a side note.  There used to be more of those

           21   over toward the Searles, Searles Trona Road, but they

           22   were cut down.  And it's interesting to note the

           23   oldest building in Ridgecrest, which is right down the

           24   street here at Norma and Ridgecrest Boulevard, is made

           25   from sodden tufa.  And it's kind of a local landmark
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            1   but it's kind of interesting.  It was soft enough to

            2   cut up in blocks to make one of the early buildings in

            3   Ridgecrest.  In fact, the oldest building in

            4   Ridgecrest.

            5                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  I don't want to

            6   steal the Chair's thunder, but since Hector is up

            7   there, I would like to take this opportunity to thank

            8   him and his staff for the wonderful field tour that we

            9   all experienced not only for the DAC, but on behalf of

           10   the public and everyone that attended.

           11                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  Thank you.  Well, we

           12   enjoyed ourselves.

           13                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Thank you, Hector.  It

           14   just was pointed out that I missed approval of the

           15   July 25 meetings transcript, so are there any

           16   corrections or questions regarding those transcripts?

           17                 MEMBER BANIS:  Just one, please, on the

           18   transcript minutes, page 60, line 22.  I apologize for

           19   my poor diction.  The name of the canyon is Woodpecker

           20   Canyon, please.

           21                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Is there a motion?

           22                 MEMBER BANIS:  If there are no further

           23   corrections, I would like to move acceptance of the

           24   transcript.

           25                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Second.
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            1                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  All in favor, aye.

            2   (Voice vote taken.)  They are approved.  Thank you.

            3   This gets us back on schedule again.

            4              We were now at the public questions for

            5   items not on the agenda.  And Mr. Dunlop, you have a

            6   card submitted.  Would you like to make your

            7   presentation now, or question?

            8                 MR. DUNLOP:  Sure.  I teach Motorcycle

            9   Safety Foundation's dirt bike class, close range

           10   exercises, Tread Lightly Program.  And I was wondering

           11   if there could be some sort of I guess class or

           12   something else, some sort of requirement so that

           13   people understand what they are doing to the

           14   environment or what impact they are having or a

           15   requirement to get into a State Park or something like

           16   that, for example.

           17              Unfortunately, I'm not Tread Lightly

           18   Program-certified, but it's part of the dirt bike

           19   course.  It seemed very worthwhile, and it could be

           20   kind of giving something back.  It's kind of painful

           21   paying a fee to just get in there and have everybody

           22   else doing their free-for-all thing.  I think it would

           23   be a lot better, for example, El Mirage, I have heard

           24   a lot of the uproar that there is a fee again there

           25   now.  If there is a quick little class where you could
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            1   explain what these trail signs look like or

            2   environmental impact of staying on the trail or off

            3   the trail, I think that would be a great benefit for

            4   the community and for the environment also.  That's

            5   about it.

            6                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Thank you.

            7                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  Thank you.  I couldn't

            8   agree more.  I couldn't agree more and thank you for

            9   bringing it up.  Education and learning about the

           10   desert and how to use it properly is most important,

           11   and I think that's a very good suggestion.

           12                 MEMBER BANIS:  We might want to point

           13   out that the BLM Ridgecrest office, per the direction

           14   of the West Mojave Plan, recently enacted an

           15   education -- a rider education and permit program for

           16   the environmentally sensitive Rand Mountains.  It's an

           17   unusual program.  It's one of the first programs of

           18   its type, and therefore, is being received with a bit

           19   of controversy among some of the users.

           20              But it's a permit program that is based on

           21   a brief course for a brief educational program.  And

           22   that program will grow and be expanded next year when

           23   the fees for accessing that area are implemented.  And

           24   that could be something that we will all want to keep

           25   an eye on to see if that approach is going to work in
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            1   such sensitive places.  Thank you.

            2                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Next?

            3                 MR. MURA:  John Mura.  Question for

            4   Randy.  Are you saying you want to start charging fees

            5   to use the land out here?

            6                 MEMBER BANIS:  No.  No.  I'm saying that

            7   we were stuck with a directive when the West Mojave

            8   Plan was adopted by the BLM, a plan about this thick

            9   (indicating) and was nearly a decade-long process,

           10   with a large number of major changes that are

           11   affecting access to the public lands, particularly for

           12   motorized vehicles.

           13              And my own -- this is going to be my own

           14   observation here -- is that there was so much on the

           15   table during the West Mojave Plan to look at,

           16   particularly specific certain routes, important routes

           17   in areas of the Black Mountain, Opal Mountain areas,

           18   down by Barstow, areas up in Ridgecrest, and we were

           19   busy looking at all the route maps, what are you

           20   keeping open and closing?  And once this Mojave Plan

           21   was finally signed and put into effect, we started

           22   combing through this plan as users and seeing what

           23   else might be in there and lo and behold, we find

           24   among a number of other issues there is this Rand

           25   Mountains permit program.  About three or four
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            1   paragraphs within the West Mojave Plan.

            2              And this plan said that the BLM will have

            3   to develop an education program, and that it will be a

            4   fee program -- this is in the language -- in order to

            5   allow continued use of the Rand Mountains Management

            6   Area by motorized vehicles.  This plan was passed four

            7   years ago, perhaps, and there was a time line for this

            8   implementation.  And we were approaching and passing

            9   the time line on that particular plan.

           10              And as a user, I became concerned that --

           11   let me just say the Rand Mountains planning area is a

           12   fairly large area that contains a large number of

           13   miles of trails.  I'm sorry, 150 -- 120 miles of

           14   trails.  If this Rand Mountains Planning -- this

           15   education permit program were not put into place, we

           16   would have faced the possibility of additional

           17   lawsuits that have potentially shut down the entire

           18   Rand Mountains Management Area to motorized use.

           19              So the reason that I tried my best to

           20   spearhead the Rand Mountains Permit Program was to get

           21   it off the ground so that we would not lose all the

           22   routes in that entire area.  Do I think that that

           23   program should be exported to other environmentally

           24   sensitive areas and carry a fee with them?  No.  But

           25   I'm awfully, awfully curious and anxious to see what
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            1   happens with this particular program.  I'm calling it

            2   a pilot program only because it's the first one that

            3   we were aware of of its type.  And I'm hoping it has a

            4   good effect on educating people.  And we are just

            5   going to have to see.

            6              This first year is free and the fee won't

            7   be implemented until next year.  What that fee is I

            8   don't know.  The fee -- the fee in the West Mojave

            9   Plan will have to cover the cost of administrating

           10   that permit program.  But let me say there are some

           11   key things in there.  The education program must be

           12   brief -- those are the words used -- so it's not going

           13   to be restrictive or have a list of 500 questions that

           14   you have to answer correctly or anything like that.

           15   And that the fee must be a modest fee.  So I hope that

           16   those guidelines continue to be stuck to for all of

           17   us.  Thank you for indulging me with a long

           18   explanation, but it's an explanation that I felt was

           19   important, due to my role in this particular permit

           20   program.

           21                 MR. DUNLOP:  Where can I find out more

           22   information on that?

           23                 MR. WALDHEIM:  Jawbone.org, the Web site

           24   that has all the information about the permit.

           25                 MEMBER BANIS:  Thank you for bringing
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            1   that up.

            2                 MR. WALDHEIM:  It says public questions

            3   for items not on the agenda.  I have some other

            4   statements, but I will do that at 2:45 when you have

            5   other comments.

            6              This one is questions for items not on the

            7   agenda.  Two items.  I would like the DAC to please

            8   put on the agenda Daphne Green at your next meeting

            9   for the specific purpose of elaborating on education.

           10   At the next commission meeting which will be

           11   December 3 up at Sacramento, brand new commissioners,

           12   they haven't had a meeting in almost a year.  I have

           13   been working with her very closely due to a statewide

           14   education program.  And so we hope from the December

           15   3rd meeting that she will be able to unveil or

           16   encourage those commissioners to really get behind it.

           17   And I think with the education that you are talking

           18   about, with what we are doing in the permit system, I

           19   think it's high time the California Desert, especially

           20   the DAC, would become involved in what she is doing.

           21              No. 2, I would like to put on the agenda

           22   the cumulative effects of the loss of access to our

           23   public lands with the renewable -- no, with the solar,

           24   geothermal, wind, military applications that are

           25   coming down on us.  As you know, the president has
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            1   made it very clear that renewable resources --

            2   energy -- renewable resources be pushed very hard.

            3   Governor Schwarzenegger in his addresses at public

            4   meetings that he has had and in conferences we have

            5   had on the telephone call, he has made it clear he

            6   wants to see a shovel in the ground.  BLM is right in

            7   the middle of the eye of this hurricane.

            8              When I talked to Mr. Mike Pool, I told him

            9   yes, we approve of that.  We like that, but we cannot

           10   continue to have an erosion of access to our public

           11   lands in order to accommodate this new renewable

           12   resource phenomena that's taking place.  So I think

           13   the DAC needs to be an integral part of how we are

           14   going to manage our public lands or renewable

           15   resources and still fulfill our requirement to the

           16   public for access to our public lands, not just for

           17   renewable resource.

           18              It's a big issue.  I'm not against

           19   renewables, but I want to protect the access to our

           20   public lands.  And I think these two items, if you can

           21   put them on the agenda, I think it would be a

           22   worthwhile topic for you to discuss.

           23                 MR. STEWART:  John Stewart, California

           24   Association of Four-Wheel Drive Clubs.

           25              One issue that keeps coming up time and
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            1   time again is the designation of routes within the

            2   planning areas.  One of the things that we from the

            3   recreation side are having trouble finding is accurate

            4   maps that reflect where routes are open.  And this is

            5   something that -- some process should be put in place

            6   much like with the Forest Service.  Within the Forest

            7   Service process they have on their Web site their

            8   topographical maps that they use in order to develop

            9   their Parkview GIS layers for the transportation

           10   system.  Something like this from the BLM as far as

           11   making these maps easily downloadable for the public

           12   and something that's an updated repository that's

           13   easily accessible would be a major improvement of

           14   keeping the public informed and giving them an

           15   opportunity to obtain updated maps within a reasonable

           16   cost and within a reasonable timeframe.

           17                 MEMBER BANIS:  In the July 25th

           18   transcript, I requested that.  But I think that might

           19   have got missed in the planning.  Thank you.  I second

           20   Mr. Stewart's suggestion.  Thank you.

           21                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Will that be on our

           22   next agenda?

           23                 MR. RAZO:  I will explain to you why it

           24   wasn't this time.  But, yes, we think we can be ready

           25   next time.
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            1                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Seeing no further.

            2                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Is this an appropriate

            3   time for a DAC member to ask a nonagenda question?

            4                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Go for it.

            5                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  The first comment or

            6   question I had was I see now that the BLM has -- no

            7   longer has on their Web site employee directories for

            8   the areas.  It makes it difficult now to contact one

            9   of your employees regarding an issue.  And I just

           10   wonder if that's going to be changed, if it's

           11   temporary or permanent?

           12                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  That's permanent.

           13                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  It is?

           14                 MEMBER BANIS:  So the fact that I loaded

           15   that page in here is providence.

           16                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  The other question

           17   that I have is after the Desert Bill or the -- excuse

           18   me -- Desert Plan was finalized and enacted, and we

           19   started having amendments to the plan, for many years

           20   there was a call for public input for amendments to

           21   the plan.

           22              Now all I see is a lot of stuff coming from

           23   the BLM saying we are going to do a Desert Plan

           24   amendment here and there.  But there is no opportunity

           25   now for the public to provide suggestions for plan
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            1   amendments to the 1980 Desert Plan.  And I think

            2   that's something that really should be changed and we

            3   should go back to the way it was in the eighties where

            4   there was an opportunity.

            5              And the reason I say that is because now

            6   we've got WEMO, NEMO, NECO and all of these which

            7   were -- are now designated as plan amendments to the

            8   Desert Plan.  And I see places and times now where we

            9   are going to need opportunity -- we may need to have a

           10   route washed out and we need to mitigate that or some

           11   other attraction that the public needs access to.  And

           12   I think that there needs to be some mechanism for the

           13   public to make suggestions on that Desert Plan.

           14                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Well, certainly the

           15   public can request a plan amendment at any time.

           16   There is no prohibition on the public requesting a

           17   plan amendment.  Maybe one way to let the public know

           18   that BLM will always consider requests for plan

           19   amendments would be for us to post maybe the plan

           20   amendment request process and our position on our Web

           21   site.  We could do that.

           22              But certainly the door is always open for

           23   the public.  We just -- we haven't been advertising

           24   and soliciting requests for plan amendment.  If that

           25   was done earlier in our existence, but it isn't
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            1   something that we actively solicit today.  However,

            2   that doesn't -- because we are not soliciting it, that

            3   does not mean that the process or the public's access

            4   to request plan amendments has changed.  It's still

            5   the same.

            6                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I got the impression

            7   that it has changed.

            8                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  No, there are no

            9   changes.

           10                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  Along with Ron's first

           11   comment about access to the employee's phone numbers,

           12   names, and such, perhaps it would -- I would like to

           13   see when we traveled around the desert to the

           14   different areas, could we have more access to the

           15   employees in that area office?  Could they participate

           16   with us a little more, not only the people that are

           17   giving reports, but other folks that we deal with or

           18   dealt with on a daily basis?  I would like to see them

           19   and meet them.  And hopefully, they would like to talk

           20   to us.

           21                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  What would you

           22   suggest as -- that would be a casual, conducive forum?

           23                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  Another barbecue.

           24                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  That's exactly what

           25   I was thinking.
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            1                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Just invite the

            2   whole field office to the barbecue.

            3                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I think in our

            4   second barbecue here after our one at Needles that Ron

            5   hosted, you, too, have set the standard for meals and

            6   gatherings to come.  And that we will never be eating

            7   at a restaurant again.

            8                 MEMBER HUND:  Geary Hund.  I just wanted

            9   to also comment on taking down the employee

           10   directories.  I found those to be incredibly useful,

           11   and I really thought it was great that the BLM did

           12   that because it made BLM more accessible to the

           13   public.  And without getting into the reasons why BLM

           14   made that decision, I would think at a minimum it

           15   would be good to continue to post at least everyone's

           16   name and title in an office so -- and then with a

           17   general contact number so people knew the different

           18   folks that were in an office that might be the person

           19   to contact to ask a question about or give assistance

           20   with a particular issue that they are interested in

           21   like real estate, geology, wildlife, whatever.  So I

           22   just wanted to make that suggestion that at a minimum,

           23   people at least know the structure, like an org chart

           24   in there, so folks can see who the different

           25   specialists are and managers.
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            1                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Even if you don't

            2   have an extension, just a main number and resources,

            3   recreation, renewable energy.  These are people that

            4   you ask for.

            5                 MEMBER HUND:  Exactly.

            6                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  We can take that

            7   suggestion forward and see what kind of response we

            8   get.  I guess I will just very briefly tell you that

            9   the directive to change our directory structure came

           10   down through our headquarters with advice from our

           11   solicitors as to what new structure each office was to

           12   adopt nationwide for BLM.  So let me assure you this

           13   is not a local decision.

           14                 MEMBER HUND:  We didn't think it was.

           15                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  I think a lot of it

           16   had to do with standardization nationally.  They did

           17   it with our Web pages, so it was not something they

           18   solicited from the field on, but it came down from the

           19   director.  We can have Mike Pool find out if they are

           20   open to us doing that.  This is the new standard

           21   nationwide, and these are the numbers you can have up

           22   and names you can have up.

           23                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  It's not a legal issue

           24   or problem?  It's just a policy?

           25                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I believe it has
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            1   something to do with our interpretation of the Privacy

            2   Act.

            3                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I know the Forest

            4   Service, you can still do a search for employees and

            5   you can find their phone number and e-mail.

            6                 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  What do lawyers

            7   know?

            8                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  I think it's a perfect

            9   segueway into the state director's report.

           10                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  I'm Kristin Hoggan,

           11   and as I said, I do congressional affairs for Mike

           12   Pool, and I'm here representing him today.

           13              Mike has been in Phoenix this week working

           14   with the ELT, which is their Executive Leadership Team

           15   for the Bureau nationwide, and they are working on a

           16   lot of transition issues, being that we are coming on

           17   to a period of transition.  They're going to try to

           18   figure out ways to make this as painless as possible

           19   and continue on with the work we are doing, despite

           20   the change of leadership on every level in the

           21   Department of Interior and the Bureau.  So Mike

           22   apologizes he couldn't be here.

           23              He wanted me to pass on a couple of things,

           24   a few national and statewide updates, and then if you

           25   have any questions, I would be happy to see if I could
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            1   answer those at the end.

            2              First of all, Mike did want me to welcome

            3   the new members of the DAC and thank you for the

            4   service, giving advice and input on the difficult

            5   issues we face.  Obviously, BLM covers the whole

            6   state, but some of our most controversial issues are

            7   the desert issues.  So I appreciate your time and

            8   attention to those in helping our managers to be able

            9   to do their jobs well.

           10              First thing I wanted to say, just to give

           11   you a few updates on legislation, we still do not have

           12   a budget passed for '09.  We are working on a

           13   continuing resolution that right now is going to go

           14   through March of '09.  So that continues us at last

           15   year's funding level.  But no new programs or funding

           16   can be enacted until the Congress acts upon that.

           17   They will have to act by March either with another

           18   continuing resolution or a passed budget, and we are

           19   hopeful for the second.

           20              Also right now, we have this Omnibus Lands

           21   Package that is in the Senate, and we have four

           22   specific bills that are a part of that, three of which

           23   have passed the House.  And they all were put into

           24   this big lands bill.  And when Congress wanted to

           25   recess in October, we didn't know if there would be
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            1   any hope for those being passed.  But Harry Reid has

            2   indicated they are coming back for a lame duck session

            3   in the Senate on Monday, the 17th, and he has

            4   indicated although the focus is going to be on the

            5   financial rescue, he is hoping to bring the Omnibus

            6   Land Package to the floor.

            7              The House will be back in session for a

            8   lame duck session on the 19th, Wednesday, the 19th, so

            9   there is a small possibility that these bills could

           10   get passed.  I will give you a little bit of

           11   information on which ones we have in there.  The first

           12   is the National Landscape Conservation Act, which

           13   basically codifies our National Landscape System.

           14   That passed the House and is now in the Senate, but

           15   interestingly enough, this is one of the bills that is

           16   under a lot of controversy now and possibly holding up

           17   the passage of the Omnibus Land Bill.

           18              A few Congressmen from western states that

           19   have concerns about the NLCS Bill adding to basically

           20   the bill of taking care of our public lands, so right

           21   now there is a holdup there.  Also on October 30th,

           22   the US Chamber of Commence came out against the bill

           23   as well, the National Landscape Conservation Bill, and

           24   asked that it be taken out of the Omnibus Land Bill.

           25   They could take that Omnibus bill forward and take
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            1   that piece out, but that is right now more of an issue

            2   than we thought it would be.

            3              Secondly, we have the Bono Mack and Boxer

            4   Wilderness Bill, which is the California Desert and

            5   Mountain Heritage Act of 2008.  It designates a lot of

            6   wilderness and scenic rivers in Riverside County.

            7   That's passed the House last spring.  It's been

            8   waiting quite a while to go to the Senate floor.  And

            9   we made a few -- there were a few changes made with

           10   the help of BLM to make room for some energy

           11   corridors, but we have supported this bill and look

           12   forward to that going forward.

           13              The other one introduced in May of 2008 was

           14   the Eastern Sierra and Northern San Gabriel Wild

           15   Heritage Act of 2008.  This was Boxer and Congressman

           16   McKeon putting this forward.  Basically this will

           17   designate 230,000 acres into the wilderness system as

           18   well as designating parts of the Amargosa River as a

           19   Wild and Scenic River.  But this one has not passed

           20   the House.  It's an Omnibus Land Bill in the Senate,

           21   so if it passes in the Senate when the Omnibus goes

           22   back to the House, it could be included with all of

           23   these.

           24              The fourth one we have is one in Northern

           25   California.  It's an Indian Lands transfer, so that
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            1   doesn't affect us as much.

            2              So those are the main ones we are looking

            3   at.  We will probably know within the next few weeks

            4   if those are going to go forward or have to be

            5   reintroduced in the new Congress next year.

            6              The other issue that Mike wanted me to

            7   bring up, obviously, is renewable energy, a very hot

            8   topic.  And although most of our applications are here

            9   in the desert and this is the primary area, he did

           10   want us to remind you that we do have a few

           11   applications elsewhere in the state, and it's an issue

           12   we are looking at statewide.  And right now we have 80

           13   solar applications and 90 wind applications statewide

           14   for different areas on BLM land.

           15              But something quite interesting, too, is we

           16   are working closely with the State, and it looks like

           17   the governor is going to be signing an executive order

           18   on renewable energy possibly in the next few weeks.

           19   As part of that, we are going to be entering into a

           20   Memorandum of Understanding with the State Energy

           21   Commission, State Department of Fish and Game, and

           22   Fish and Wildlife Service and BLM.  So there should be

           23   more information on that if things go as the State is

           24   indicating they would like it to.

           25              Lastly, I wanted to pass out a press
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            1   release that came from the Washington office on the

            2   Wild Horse and Burro Program.  And Steve will comment

            3   on that.  And I will put out any extras I have.

            4              On November 10th, the Government

            5   Accountability Office issued a report on the long-term

            6   options for our Wild Horse and Burro Program.  There

            7   are a lot of problems right now with just too many

            8   horses, not having the funding levels that we need,

            9   adoptions are down for a variety of reasons.  So

           10   basically this report from the GAO has gone to the

           11   House Resources Committee and the Chairman of the

           12   House.  But we did issue the statement from the

           13   Washington office, which I'm passing out.  And for

           14   right now that's BLM's complete statement on the

           15   report.

           16              This next Monday our Horse and Burro

           17   Advisory Council, the national one, is going to be

           18   meeting in Reno.  And our assistant director, Henri

           19   Bisson is going to be there, and basically they are

           20   going to figure out how we are going to go from here

           21   on out.  So we are waiting for word from them on how

           22   we are going to take this GAO report and move forward

           23   with the Wild Horse and Burro Program.  But for now,

           24   our complete statement is before you.  This has a lot

           25   of effect on us here with the Ridgecrest Corral, but
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            1   it's a nationwide crisis we have right now.

            2              Are there any questions or comments that

            3   you want me to specifically take back to Mike other

            4   than the ones you have been giving?

            5                 MR. WALDHEIM:  Save our access to public

            6   lands.  Ed Waldheim.

            7              I talked to Mike at the El Mirage open

            8   house.  We cannot forget about the public.  It seems

            9   like the public is getting the short end of the stick

           10   every single time.  And enough is enough.  And so when

           11   all these applications come in -- and I know

           12   Schwarzenegger has been working on trying to ease up

           13   the regulations so we can get a shovel in the ground.

           14   And Cal Fish and Game needs to be involved to make

           15   sure it happens.  Like here in Canteel, they were now

           16   fighting and holding us up for seven months not

           17   letting us work on a private property alfalfa field

           18   that has sludge on it.  They want mitigation.

           19   Insanity.  Absolute insanity.

           20              So Mike needs to take a real strong

           21   position that, yes, we will work with you, but the

           22   public access to our lands needs to be preserved.  And

           23   I think there is not one of you in this room that will

           24   disagree with me on that.  So he needs to get a real

           25   strong message:  Remember us, the public.  Right, Ron?
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            1                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Hear, hear.  Right.

            2                 MR. SELLARD:  Michael Sellard.  Could

            3   you give us kind of an overview of what the executive

            4   order -- approximately what it's going to say.

            5                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  The statewide one?

            6   We were not sure on that.  It has to do with involving

            7   multiple agencies, and I think it's going to revise

            8   previous goals set for renewable energy.  But at least

            9   the portions that we know have not been made public.

           10                 MR. NOSALA:  Wayne Nosala.  What we just

           11   touched on, on this Canteel project, US Fish and

           12   Wildlife Service and Fish and Game were requesting

           13   some ridiculous mitigation compensation properties for

           14   a private property project.  And the question was

           15   raised, Who oversees Department of Fish and Game.  And

           16   she said the governor does.  So we need to send a

           17   message to the governor asking him to loosen up some

           18   of the really super tight restrictions that some of

           19   the renewable projects on private property that

           20   affects our access to other properties elsewhere as a

           21   result of mitigation.

           22                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  I will bring that

           23   back.

           24                 MR. STEWART:  Go back and clarify the

           25   Bono -- the McKeon Boxer Wilderness Proposal.  What
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            1   was the acreage you said that included?

            2                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  430,000.  That's

            3   not all BLM.  The large portion of it is Forest

            4   Service, but we have this one large area and a couple

            5   of small ones.

            6                 MR. STEWART:  So it is 430,000 acres.  I

            7   thought you said something different.

            8                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  Yes.

            9                 MEMBER BANIS:  The National Landscape

           10   Conservation System proposal was developed with the

           11   strong association of special interest groups and

           12   their participation.  Recent studies and reports have

           13   come out criticizing the development of that program

           14   and how it cozied up to special interest groups in

           15   doing so.

           16              The general public, as you know, through

           17   the last decade has become increasingly frustrated

           18   with the role the special interest groups are playing

           19   in today's government system.  Individual members of

           20   the public don't have the same kind of access that the

           21   special interest groups do.  It's hard words for me to

           22   say here with the body of colleagues, most of which

           23   are representatives of special interest groups.  But

           24   this body is at least here together in the same room

           25   discussing issues, whereas the criticism that I have
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            1   recently read on the development of that landscape

            2   system proposal was that it was done in a vacuum and

            3   that this might jeopardize its passage.

            4              Is that any -- one of the reasons why it

            5   might be pulled out of the Omnibus Bill is to have

            6   that considered separately?  I would like to see it

            7   pulled from the Omnibus Bill so we can get right to

            8   the heart of how this bill was crafted and who was

            9   allowed at the table and who was not.  Thank you.

           10                 MEMBER HUND:  Did you want to respond?

           11                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  No, go ahead.

           12                 MEMBER HUND:  I just have to -- feel I

           13   need to share a little bit different point of view

           14   than Randy's on that legislation.

           15              I worked as an advocate for the National

           16   Landscape Conservation System representing the

           17   Wilderness Society for more than two years.  And I

           18   think that there is in some instances a lack of

           19   understanding of just exactly what that legislation

           20   would do and what its implications are.  And I do

           21   think it's a good bill and I hope that further

           22   discussions with the US Chamber of Commerce will take

           23   place and ultimately they will support it.

           24              The reason I feel that way is because these

           25   areas would essentially be managed the same way that
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            1   they are being managed right now.  That would not

            2   change.  But what this legislation would do is it

            3   would make permanent the BLM's system of conservation

            4   lands.  And I know we have a range of opinions on

            5   this, but I just want to share some of the potential

            6   benefits of that very briefly, or one of the biggest

            7   benefits.

            8              And that is that recognition of the system

            9   and giving it permanence would enable the BLM

           10   ultimately to have a better chance of getting

           11   permanent support funding for the management of the

           12   system, which would benefit all of the units within

           13   the system.

           14              So -- and again, what it really does is it

           15   just codifies something that only exists

           16   administratively right now, but it doesn't change the

           17   underlying management of the system, including the

           18   development of management plans which guide the way

           19   these units are operated and maintained.  Thank you.

           20                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Patrick.

           21                 MEMBER GUNN:  Patrick Lloyd Gunn.  I

           22   just wanted to make a comment about the renewable

           23   energy for you to take back to the director of the

           24   BLM.  And this paper is from -- it's put out by

           25   Department of the Interior.  In 2002 California
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            1   established their Renewable Portfolio Standard Program

            2   requiring an annual 1 percent increase in renewable

            3   energy with the goal of increasing the percentage of

            4   electrical generation from renewable energy to 20

            5   percent by 2017.

            6              And a lot of groups quote this as our rush

            7   to use many -- up to a million acres of desert land

            8   for solar and wind.  But this also goes on to state

            9   that to reach that 20 percent goal by -- that we are

           10   on track to reach that 20 percent goal by 2010.  And

           11   also DWP has lately stated that we are on track to

           12   meet the 20 percent by 2010.  That's Department of

           13   Water and Power, David Nahai, chief executive of

           14   Department of Water and Power.

           15              So we are on track to reach these goals

           16   without any damage to the flora and fauna of the

           17   Mojave Desert.  And I hope people will remember that

           18   and not rush to take many thousands of acres of desert

           19   land from the public.

           20                 MR. SELLARD:  Michael Sellard.

           21              I was at that meeting at Canteel Beacon

           22   plant with CEC, and I was really appalled at Fish and

           23   Game.  I saw a very responsible report of the power

           24   and light company to the biology of the area.  Very

           25   responsible company.  I think they did an excellent
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            1   job in their presentation.  I was very disappointed

            2   with Fish and Game.  I think CEC stated that we are at

            3   9 percent of our energy level.  In other words, we are

            4   really way behind.  Thank you.

            5                 MEMBER ACUNA:  Just to bounce off on the

            6   renewables.  I concur with the statement just made,

            7   that some utilities are closer to meeting that

            8   renewable goal.  Perhaps L.A. Department of Water is

            9   there.  But the other utilities are not.

           10                 MEMBER GUNN:  The other paper I read

           11   from was from the Department of Interior, BLM.

           12                 MEMBER ACUNA:  I have a question for

           13   Kristin.  You mentioned in the Bono Wilderness Bill

           14   some discussion about energy corridors, federal energy

           15   corridors.  What was the main thought on that?  Are

           16   they going to create additional areas with no

           17   opportunity for energy corridors, or they were going

           18   to consider that?

           19                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  Recently there were

           20   boundary changes that were tweaked because of some

           21   wilderness boundaries were nearby some proposed energy

           22   corridors.  They were minor, but yet enough to give

           23   some room so there were opportunities for those

           24   corridors to go in.  We have some specific maps, if

           25   you are interested -- I can show you later on; I don't
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            1   have them here with me -- where they made these

            2   tweaks.  But they were accepted in and that's what is

            3   part of the bill in the Senate now.

            4                 MEMBER ACUNA:  One last question.  And

            5   thank you, Kristin.

            6              Geary, you mentioned that there would be a

            7   benefit to the Landscape Bill, portions of the bill

            8   for BLM in that they would have some permanency in

            9   funding.  How is that different than today?  I mean,

           10   is the government going to ante up additional funds

           11   just like that so the BLM can do more work?

           12                 MEMBER HUND:  Well, what it is there

           13   is a system of, say, National Monuments and National

           14   Conservation Areas right now that the BLM has the

           15   responsibility for managing.  And right now there are

           16   funds that are dedicated to the management of those

           17   areas and recognition that they have the system to

           18   manage.  But this system right now is only on paper.

           19   It was developed administratively during the -- one of

           20   the previous administrations, during the Clinton

           21   administration.

           22              So what making the system permanent will do

           23   is help to ensure that those funds continue to be

           24   authorized, but also in the future, when hopefully our

           25   economy is better and there are opportunities for the
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            1   BLM to seek funding for land management, that gives

            2   them a stronger case because they are saying that they

            3   are managing this system of conservation areas that is

            4   in a sense a parallel to the National Park Service

            5   system, although they are managed differently because

            6   of the BLM's mission and mandate and also because of

            7   what the system was envisioned to be, less developed

            8   areas, less Park Service-like, with a lot of control

            9   and delineated facilities, but more dispersed camping

           10   and use.  Basically how they are being managed right

           11   now.  But it formally recognizes the BLM has this very

           12   awesome responsibility and mandate.  And it ensures

           13   that, one, they continue to receive that funding; and

           14   two, that there are opportunities to get more funding

           15   which can benefit all the different interests on this

           16   body and also out in the audience.

           17                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Kristin, maybe you

           18   know the answer to this.

           19              I understand that in this current

           20   administration there were some back-door moves

           21   contemplated to declare or to promote wilderness

           22   legislation but exempt the military.  Do we know if

           23   that's the case in any legislation coming down?

           24                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  I don't know anything

           25   about it.
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            1                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I have not heard

            2   that particular rumor.

            3                 MEMBER HUND:  I wanted to comment

            4   further on the accommodations that were made in the

            5   Riverside County bill for energy corridors, being one

            6   of the persons that helped develop that legislation

            7   and has continued to work on it throughout the

            8   process.

            9              And just to give a specific example, there

           10   was a proposed addition to the Oracopia Mountains

           11   Wilderness Area on the north side south of Interstate

           12   10.  And it was identified that a portion of it could

           13   potentially affect future energy corridor development

           14   in that location.  So the boundaries were adjusted

           15   southward to ensure that that designation would not

           16   interfere with -- it's already an established energy

           17   corridor, but they were anticipating future expansion

           18   or additional facilities within that corridor that

           19   could have been affected.

           20                 MR. WALDHEIM:  Kristin, you said

           21   Amargosa River Scenic.  Did the BLM make sure that we

           22   retained the access to the Amargosa River for the

           23   Sperry Wash for recreational purposes from Dumont

           24   Dunes?  That is what our agreement was, and I sure

           25   hope to God that whatever you supported, you didn't
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            1   change that.

            2                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Yes, the crossing to

            3   get to Dumont Dunes is not --

            4                 MR. WALDHEIM:  And the confluence of

            5   Sperry Wash.  Not only the crossing.  Sperry Wash is

            6   one thing, and just like Caltrans got the exception

            7   from the north, we want to make sure that from

            8   confluence of Sperry Wash down Amargosa River to cross

            9   the Dumont Dunes is recreation, not just wild and

           10   scenic.  I want to make sure that BLM didn't sell us

           11   out on that, please, because that was our agreement

           12   with McKeon's bill and talking with Bob Howard.

           13   That's the way we had it.  Now she is scaring me --

           14                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  When you use the

           15   word BLM selling us out, I really don't appreciate

           16   that.  Because --

           17                 MR. WALDHEIM:  I apologize.

           18                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Let me explain,

           19   maybe the process how BLM actually provides

           20   information to a senator or a congressman.  Their aide

           21   comes to us and asks us for all the information we can

           22   give them about public uses and uses we have

           23   authorized on the public lands in any of the areas

           24   that they are studying.  BLM actually does not make

           25   any recommendations one way or the other to a
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            1   congressman or a senator regarding whether an area

            2   should be considered for wilderness designation or

            3   not.  All we do is provide information about how we

            4   have been administering the public lands, what

            5   authorizations we have issued in the past, mining

            6   claims, transmission line corridors, what types of

            7   public uses are typically enjoyed on those public

            8   lands.  We don't -- we are not allowed --

            9                 MR. WALDHEIM:  Kristin said the BLM

           10   supported it.

           11                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  We did in

           12   testimony.  That's the one time that we --

           13                 MR. WALDHEIM:  That's the one difference

           14   between providing information and supporting.  I want

           15   to make sure that you provided what we as the TRT

           16   worked out.

           17                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  What the BLM through

           18   the Department of Interior does is have a speaker at a

           19   congressional hearing when the committee reviews that

           20   bill and the Department of Interior issues a public

           21   statement about the proposed legislation.  That's how

           22   BLM either supports or does not support proposed

           23   legislation.  It's through the public hearing at the

           24   committee hearing, and it becomes part of the public

           25   record.
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            1                 MR. WALDHEIM:  I want to make sure,

            2   please, make sure that that is in there, if you could

            3   make sure to follow up on that.  If not, Ron Schiller

            4   and the rest of us have to get together with McKeon

            5   and make sure it's in the bill.

            6                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  It would be

            7   appropriate for you to talk to McKeon because it's

            8   their bill.  The only comment we have made is in that

            9   testimony, so I would think it would be more

           10   appropriate for you to go back to them, being that we

           11   don't negotiate on testimony with them -- or on a

           12   bill, that is, with them.

           13                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  One thing I would say

           14   to Ed and a question to you, Kristin, is you mentioned

           15   the Boxer McKeon bill introduced in May.  Those bills

           16   have changed.  They are not what they were in May.

           17                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  There are

           18   amendments made to them.

           19                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Yes, and not to the

           20   advantage of motorized access.

           21              Secondly, the S-3069 passed committee with

           22   amendments.  It's terribly difficult for us to get the

           23   new language of those bills.  Senator Boxer's staff

           24   has promised me on three occasions to get that new

           25   language to me within the week.  And it's been months
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            1   ago since the last amendment.

            2                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  We can give you the

            3   language.

            4                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Of the latest?

            5                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  Of what passed.

            6                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  And that differs from

            7   HR-6156, which is McKeon's counterpart to that bill,

            8   which now I have been unable to get the amendments

            9   from his office for over a month now.  I did finally

           10   get a copy from my congressman of the Senate bill,

           11   which is completely amended.  I mean, completely

           12   stricken and rewritten.  So when you say you support

           13   the bill as it was introduced in April or May, excuse

           14   me, May 22nd, that tells me you don't know what is in

           15   the new bill.  How could you continue to support it?

           16                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  When we supported

           17   it in testimony, the bill as it was at that point.  So

           18   I will give you my information, and why don't you call

           19   me next week and we can talk about it and I can give

           20   you what we have.

           21                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Okay?  Do you have a

           22   card because I can't get your number on the Web site.

           23                 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN:  I will give it to

           24   you.

           25                 MEMBER HUND:  Just very briefly for Ron
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            1   and others -- and I don't know that it's necessarily

            2   the very latest version has been posted or not, but

            3   you may or may not know it.  There is a site if you

            4   Google just the word "Thomas" on Google, that gets you

            5   to the Library of Congress and you can search by bill

            6   number.

            7                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I have already done

            8   that for weeks.

            9                 MEMBER HUND:  I just wanted to tell you,

           10   generally in my experience, I have been able to pull

           11   up the most recent version of the bill, but not

           12   always.  I trust that you were unable to, but I just

           13   wanted folks on the DAC and in the public to know that

           14   that's a resource if you are trying to get a copy of a

           15   bill.

           16                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Thank you, Kristin, for

           17   your report.  And now we go to District Manager's

           18   report.

           19                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Okay.  Ed, I want to

           20   see if I can find out -- it's Spitzer Trail?

           21                 MR. WALDHEIM:  Sperry Wash.  Sperry Wash

           22   is the beginning in the north.  It's a confluence with

           23   the Amargosa River.  It comes down and crosses Dumont

           24   Dunes and ends up across the highway.  That's the

           25   portion that we want to make sure is for recreation,
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            1   not for wild and scenic.

            2                 MR. BORCHARD:  I will see what I can

            3   find out.

            4                 MR. WALDHEIM:  That was our agreement

            5   with Ron Schiller, with all Dumont Dunes TRT.  It's in

            6   our management plan to manage as such, and we want to

            7   make sure we preserve that.  And I apologize again for

            8   the "sellout."  It was a slip of the tongue, but I

            9   hate surprises.  I totally hate surprises.

           10                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Okay.  Thank you.

           11              I guess first of all, I would like to

           12   personally welcome Lloyd Gunn and Jim Fitzpatrick to

           13   their first DAC meeting.  As you can see, we often

           14   have lively discussions here and share a broad

           15   spectrum of points of view, which is exactly what we

           16   want to have happen at these meetings and we encourage

           17   it.

           18                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Thank you.

           19                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I would also like to

           20   express my personal appreciation to Richard for last

           21   night's barbecue and he set the bar pretty high.  And

           22   what I think I will do with the request to have more

           23   of our BLM field office employees in the hosting

           24   office present, I think maybe for our next meeting I'm

           25   going to lead the charge and see if I can get a few
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            1   BLM employees to join me personally in hosting our

            2   next barbecue.

            3                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  So we have some

            4   competition?

            5                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  The master griller.

            6                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  We can have a menudo

            7   cookoff.

            8                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I guess, thirdly, I

            9   would like to congratulate our members who are -- that

           10   are here today at our last DAC meeting and those that

           11   aren't here today, for their long years of service to

           12   the California Desert Conservation Area and express my

           13   appreciation to Ron Schiller and Dave Charlton in

           14   their last meeting, as well as two folks that were not

           15   able to come today, Bill Presch and Tom Davis, for

           16   your service to our community in helping craft wise

           17   decisions and maintain public access to the desert is

           18   greatly appreciated.  Later on we will be presenting

           19   you with a small token of our appreciation.

           20              I don't want to steal the thunder of some

           21   of our more detailed presentations on the agenda, so

           22   I'm going to touch on a few points from the 20,000-

           23   foot-elevation viewpoint, and then some other folks

           24   will give you some specific presentations, subject

           25   presentations.
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            1              So I guess maybe as I go through this and

            2   you think about questions, I encourage you if the

            3   agenda item is a specific agenda item such as

            4   renewable energy, maybe it would be best to hold any

            5   thoughts you have based on my 20,000-foot-elevation

            6   remarks for maybe that detailed discussion later on in

            7   the agenda.

            8              The first example is renewable energy.

            9   There is a presentation later by our district program

           10   manager on that subject.  But this is just my high-

           11   point view.

           12              As Ed mentioned, it's on the Obama

           13   administration's mind and I think we won't anticipate

           14   any surprises there.  We all know there is interest

           15   there and strong support for continuing development of

           16   the program.  However, the Wall Street meltdown has

           17   affected all of us personally as well as -- I suggest

           18   its effect on individual project applicants such as

           19   Goldman Sachs may influence our overall number of

           20   applications we are processing in the future.  Cash is

           21   going to be more difficult to come by.  The cost of

           22   capital to build a project will increase, and this may

           23   make some of the plays unprofitable.  And I anticipate

           24   it will reduce the overall number of project

           25   applications we have in the future.
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            1              Kristin mentioned an executive order by the

            2   governor being considered, as well as a Memorandum of

            3   Understanding.  I refer to this in my office as the

            4   secret MOU because I heard of its existence from

            5   sources outside my own agency.  The MOU that we are

            6   looking at and considering moving forward with would

            7   be between the BLM and the Cal Fish and Game and the

            8   California Energy Commission as well as the Fish and

            9   Wildlife Service.  And it would establish something

           10   called the California Renewable Energy Action Team or

           11   CREATEAM.  That means we could call the members of it

           12   if you add i-n-s to the end "Creatins."

           13              The overall objectives of this group, as

           14   was outlined in the draft MOU, are to develop a

           15   conservation strategy to protect and conserve natural

           16   resources in the California District Conservation Area

           17   while allowing solar and wind projects to be built.

           18   And it's expected that this group would complete their

           19   charge in two and a half years.

           20              This group would develop a multispecies

           21   conservation strategy that would facilitate Endangered

           22   Species Act and California Endangered Species Act.  It

           23   would ensure public involvement by hosting stakeholder

           24   meetings and reviews of their proposed work product.

           25   It would reduce timelines for siting development,
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            1   permitting and construction of renewable energy

            2   projects, and it would establish best management

            3   practices to guide siting and to minimize

            4   environmental impacts.

            5              As a forecast for what we can expect to see

            6   from the Obama administration, I think all of you are

            7   aware we have nominations open now for five vacant DAC

            8   seats.  I think that nomination period closes on the

            9   30th of November -- am I right, David?

           10                 MR. BRIERY:  First of December.

           11                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  First of December.

           12   We will be -- BLM will be forwarding our

           13   recommendations to our Washington office and to the

           14   Department of Interior at some point in December.  I

           15   suspect because at that timeframe the actual

           16   selections and approval of DAC members will be

           17   completed by the Obama administration.

           18              Currently BLM employees are working with

           19   the Obama transition team attempting to tell them how

           20   to spell BLM and preparing lots of briefing materials.

           21   So we are all kind of working together in a great

           22   education process for these folks so they can make

           23   wise appointments that will help us and support the

           24   BLM mission.

           25              Currently we don't anticipate any
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            1   surprises.  I think the objectives are fairly

            2   transparent out there right now.  One of the things we

            3   don't have on the agenda that I will briefly talk

            4   about is an update on the border.  The fence

            5   construction is moving quickly.  We expect all of the

            6   California segments to be completed by December 30th

            7   with the exception of a fence segment that's adjacent

            8   to the Otay wilderness area.  I expect the Otay is

            9   extremely mountainous, very challenging territory to

           10   build anything.  And because of this, they have had to

           11   do some redesign work.  We expected the redesign to be

           12   completed this week and expect construction to begin

           13   in January.

           14              Another thing we are working on the border

           15   is mitigation funding for impacts with the

           16   infrastructure construction.  Fifty million dollars

           17   has been identified as the need to mitigate those

           18   impacts, primarily impacts to T and E species.  DOI

           19   agencies, BLM, Fish and Wildlife Service are

           20   collaborating across the three states to submit their

           21   mitigation plan.  And BLM California's play, we are

           22   seeking long-term funding in the amount of 1 million

           23   dollars per year for our participation in the

           24   mitigation.  And that would primarily be mitigation

           25   and monitoring.  I'm sure we would be involved with
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            1   any acquisition of habitat to offset impacts since we

            2   are kind of -- have a lot of experience and capability

            3   in that regard.

            4              Another issue along the border is violence,

            5   and I'm sure you are all aware that the chief of

            6   police in Nogales was murdered about two and a half

            7   weeks ago.  This does have the potential -- this

            8   violence along the border does have the potential to

            9   affect public access.  It's just become a dangerous

           10   place.  It affects the way we conduct our operations

           11   and the care we take in having our employees work in

           12   the border area that we actually consider the border

           13   area 100 miles north of the border.

           14              We expect the Obama administration to focus

           15   primarily on mitigation and monitoring as their

           16   primary interest associated with the border

           17   infrastructure.  Currently we have an assessment going

           18   on by Don Maruska and Company, who is developing

           19   models for our DAC subgroups we call TRT's, look at

           20   our charter to determine their subgroups.  The

           21   objectives of Don Maruska's assessment and report will

           22   be to make sure BLM is complying with the Federal

           23   Advisory Committee Act rules to develop an appropriate

           24   set of stakeholder organizations to serve the needs of

           25   the California Desert Management; to enhance working
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            1   relationships between user interests and BLM field

            2   staff; to ensure that BLM has the right tools for the

            3   job, the structure, the roles, the operating

            4   principles that fit the needs of the specific

            5   subgroups; to apply best management practices and

            6   teamwork in decision making processes and delegation

            7   in pursuit of these goals; and try and optimize our

            8   use of your time as volunteers who serve on our --

            9   your voluntary participation and others who serve on

           10   our subgroups; and to establish a model for working

           11   subcommittees, California statewide.

           12              I would also like to update you briefly on

           13   our BLM staffing changes that have occurred since we

           14   last met.  BLM has decided to raise the bar on our

           15   abandoned mine lands program and to do that we have

           16   established a district AML coordinator position.  And

           17   I have moved our field manager from Needles, Sterling

           18   White, into that position primarily because of his

           19   national office experience and the field experience

           20   with the program and his ability to aggressively lead

           21   our field offices in implementing our brand-new

           22   district AML strategy.

           23              Most recently he led the -- supported the

           24   DMG in their sponsorship of a "Fix a Shaft Today

           25   (Fast)" meeting on November 6.  It was a great success
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            1   at Barstow.  Over 80 people attended that workshop

            2   from California agencies.  Parks Service, Forest

            3   Service was there.  County governments, military, as

            4   well as some vendors and contractors who do work for

            5   the agencies on the AML.

            6                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  What is DGM?

            7                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Desert Managers

            8   Group.  Both ends of the spectrum were discussed at

            9   this meeting, the need to protect the public from AML

           10   hazards, while at the same time protecting wildlife

           11   habitat that some of our shafts and adits present to

           12   wildlife, while at the same time meeting our

           13   regulatory requirements.

           14              We are working to increase our realty

           15   specialist staff since they are critical with our

           16   renewable energy workload.  And we have two people,

           17   existing BLM employees, that are going to attend or

           18   are attending currently a BLM land school, one from

           19   the El Centro office and one from the Barstow office.

           20              We are also recruiting new specialists.

           21   I'm happy to announce the selection of the Needles

           22   field manager, Rusty Lee, the assistant Monument

           23   manager from the Grand Staircase-Escalante National

           24   Monument in Utah has graciously accepted our offer to

           25   come lead our team at Needles.  He has 12 years
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            1   experience with the BLM in Tonopah, Winnemucca and

            2   Escalante.  He also has four years of experience with

            3   the Forest Service in two Utah offices.  He is a

            4   graduate of the US Navel Academy in Annapolis and

            5   holds an engineering mining degree from Colorado

            6   Schools of Mines.

            7              We are recruiting the resources division

            8   chief for the Ridgecrest field office.  We lost a very

            9   good employee when Dave Shausted (as pronounced) went

           10   to Denver, Colorado, so we are aggressively pursuing a

           11   quality replacement.

           12              We have hired 18 new law enforcement

           13   rangers in 2008 at the CDD.  And right now the

           14   national office is considering a proposal to establish

           15   pilot renewable energy offices at CDD.  We are making

           16   a play.  We have thrown our hat in the ring to be one

           17   of the locations for pilot offices.

           18              As Kristin mentioned recently, the GAO

           19   issued a report on our wild horse management dilemma

           20   that the BLM faces across the West.  And the fact is

           21   that the board meeting is meeting on Monday.  The

           22   numbers of animals removed have greatly exceeded our

           23   ability to adopt animals out, and our population that

           24   have been short- and long-term holding have increased

           25   dramatically over the last two years and the cost of
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            1   caring for the animals has increased dramatically.

            2              In 2000, we spent about 7 million a year

            3   caring for animals that we are holding onto that we

            4   removed from the range.  In 2007 that number had

            5   swelled to 21 million and 2008, short- and long-term

            6   care costs consumed 74 percent of our Wild Horse and

            7   Burro Management budget.

            8              BLM has limited options of dealing with

            9   unadoptable animals.  The GAO report that was recently

           10   released recognized our limited options.  And also

           11   recognized that the 1978 amendment to the Wild Horse

           12   and Burro Act gave BLM the authority to either sell

           13   horses without limitation that have been passed over

           14   for adoption at least three times.  We also have the

           15   authority in this law, which we have never exercised,

           16   to -- I don't know if I can pronounce this word --

           17   euthanize animals.  The GAO report recommends that BLM

           18   initiate discussions with Congress on ideas for how to

           19   address our current dilemma.  And I emphasize that no

           20   decisions have been made and this topic is going to be

           21   one of the primary topics discussed at the meeting

           22   this weekend in Reno.

           23              That's all I have.  Any questions?

           24                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  Yeah, I have -- I just

           25   have a comment on the development of the subcommittee.
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            1   I would strongly encourage the BLM to at least have a

            2   subcommittee for any location that has user fees.  And

            3   my point there is that I want to see that the user

            4   fees that are dictated are dedicated to a given area.

            5   We have visibility -- the public has visibility over

            6   those budgets in great detail.  It's the visitors'

            7   money that's going into those accounts, and those

            8   visitors need to have visibility of those

            9   expenditures.  So I think that right now I know we

           10   have a TRT for Dumont Dunes, but any other places,

           11   possibly El Mirage or any of these places that have

           12   dedicated fees, need to have one of these

           13   subcommittees of the DAC set up.

           14                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Okay.

           15                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I have two questions.

           16   You mentioned the cost of the Wild Horse and Burro

           17   program, talking about -- I don't remember the figure

           18   you said, but the cost of maintaining those

           19   unadoptable animals.  Does that cost -- is that

           20   inclusive of the cost that we pay the private ranches

           21   and -- that is included in that figure?

           22                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Yes.  I think the

           23   current contract price, it's a bid process where

           24   individuals bid to provide long-term care.  And I

           25   think the current price bid is about $1.25 a day.
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            1                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Per animal.  It's

            2   cheaper than long-term health insurance for us.

            3                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Start e-mailing on that

            4   one.

            5                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Yeah, it seems like a

            6   tremendous amount of money.  And when you said

            7   "euthanize," does that mean other than -- does that

            8   mean you can allow -- you are allowed to put them down

            9   in the area that they exist?  In other words --

           10                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Yes, I think just

           11   the authority is there in the law that allows it.

           12   There is no specific -- I don't think BLM has a policy

           13   on how it's going to be applied because it hasn't been

           14   used.

           15                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I guess for the record

           16   as a member of the DAC, I have always been frustrated

           17   with that.  In fact, I am an equestrian user.  I have

           18   several of the adopted horses myself, one that I ride

           19   myself.  But I think it's just a terrible waste to

           20   continue to have these ornery, unadoptable, worthless

           21   animals to have to continually perpetuate their

           22   existence at that exorbitant cost.  And I personally

           23   believe it should be dealt with as a public asset.

           24   We've got to get dog food and cat food and animal food

           25   from someplace, and if somebody in another country
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            1   wants to eat them like any other game animal, I don't

            2   see why the BLM shouldn't turn them in to at least

            3   some cash return for them.

            4              I know I'm going to get beat up for saying

            5   that, because I have been constantly, including from

            6   within my own family.  But you've got to look at

            7   something somewhere and determine what you can afford.

            8              The second question or at least a comment I

            9   have is on the abandoned mine lands.  One of the

           10   concerns I have had is that there doesn't seem to be

           11   any public process or notification of what actions

           12   that the BLM is going to take on any particular adit

           13   or shaft, and I would just like to point out that some

           14   of those adits are very important to some of the gem

           15   and mineral collecting.  There is some significant

           16   mineral specimens that the public can collect in

           17   those.

           18              Now, I know that there is a hazard.  I know

           19   that that's always been claimed that, well, people get

           20   in there and get hurt.  I have no problem personally

           21   with a shaft.  I don't know how we survived out here

           22   in the desert for so long with all these holes.  But

           23   now we have these people coming up that don't seem to

           24   have any sense, falling down the holes.  I can

           25   understand that, but we have other activities on our
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            1   public lands that are a hazard if no appropriate

            2   precautions are taken.  Motorcycles, mountain

            3   climbing, rock climbing, mountaineering where we have

            4   safety considerations.  And I just would like there to

            5   be some mechanism for the public to make comments on

            6   which adit you are considering closing or where you

            7   are wanting to close off access to some of the areas

            8   around Randsburg that you mentioned for the arsenic.

            9   That includes areas where we have picked up agates and

           10   other type of workable material in the past.

           11              And so if you made something available for

           12   the public to provide the comments on, I would

           13   certainly appreciate it, knowing that there is a

           14   certain hazard if you are not careful.  But at least

           15   consider some of these particular areas where some of

           16   these specimens are important to collectors.  I know

           17   that's not a popular idea, either.

           18                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  I would like to

           19   segueway off of that.  Perhaps we need like an

           20   adopt-an-adit program for mineral societies.  They

           21   would have to gate and maintain the adit and be

           22   properly trained to go in them.

           23                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  There is an idea.

           24                 MR. MATTHEWS:  Then we have to get the

           25   engineers in.
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            1                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  We have back gates on

            2   a lot of them, so if you could have access to those,

            3   although I don't know --

            4                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Would that be a

            5   seven-step process to adopt an adit with AA?

            6                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Just watch out for A-

            7   step.

            8                 MEMBER BANIS:  I would like to tee off

            9   what Ron said.

           10              I don't know how many of you have actually

           11   read the Inspector General's report from July.  It

           12   started out with the phrase that they were "gravely

           13   concerned" about the condition of these lands and the

           14   impacts that the mining has had on them.  And when you

           15   continue to read it, you just get the sense that they

           16   are really not from around here.

           17              I have to apologize for some of the members

           18   of the public who were specifically cited in that

           19   report, and I wish I could have pulled it up to read

           20   from it.  But the Web site, DOI Web site is down.

           21   Anyway, for example, the one who pulled the fence

           22   aside, drove his truck to the edge and lowered himself

           23   down into the adit with a cable or chain off his

           24   bumper and the chain snapped and he fell -- those -- I

           25   apologize, these are the people who are bringing these
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            1   problems to the front.

            2              But I don't think those are the real

            3   priority problems.  The real priority problems are the

            4   ones where people are unintentionally and accidentally

            5   falling in, particularly on the ones right adjacent to

            6   roads and trails.  This report put forth a number of

            7   suggestions and ideas for how this problem can be

            8   addressed.  It to me looked like, as I heard others of

            9   my colleagues say, an attempt to sanitize the desert.

           10   Remarkable if you go through and read all the steps

           11   proposing to be done.  It's really over the top, in my

           12   opinion.

           13              But we all know that not every hole is ever

           14   going to get filled.  There is no way.  Money just is

           15   never, ever going to be there.  But there will be

           16   money for filling holes.  And I would like to see that

           17   the priorities for those holes be the ones closest to

           18   the full road drive trails and the motorcycle trails,

           19   the ones that are really close.

           20              I was disappointed how they dragged in the

           21   aspects of the historic cabin programs into it.  I

           22   think that's an entirely separate issue.  But I guess

           23   I would like to -- I'm more, as Ron says, I'm more and

           24   more concerned about the priority we would have.

           25                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  One of
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            1   prioritization criteria in our district strategy is

            2   proximity to recreational use.  High on the list of

            3   the criteria.  We have established criteria for

            4   prioritizing what places to address first, and I'm not

            5   talking about mineral collection; I'm talking about

            6   schools and motorized travel use.

            7                 MEMBER BANIS:  Thank you.

            8                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  It is the recreational

            9   occurrences.

           10                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  We have some folks in

           11   the audience, and we are getting close to breaks.  So

           12   please --

           13                 MR. WALDHEIM:  Follow up with

           14   Mr. Holiday's comment about the responsibility,

           15   transparency of the fees that are being charged.

           16   Steve, I would like to see if there is a way that you

           17   could come up from your office on a standard approach

           18   to this.  Randy, myself, Ron on the Dumont Dunes TRT,

           19   when we go, we get financial reports.  We get a

           20   budget.  We see what have we spent to date to see how

           21   things are going, but sometimes it's one form,

           22   sometimes it's a different form.

           23              In El Mirage at the last meeting before

           24   Roxie left, I asked her, Roxie, would you please have

           25   your staff prepare for us a budget of how you intend
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            1   on spending the fee from El Mirage.  Where are we to

            2   date, and what are the collections you have done and

            3   what are the priorities?  How are we going to spend

            4   this so it's an open transparency?

            5              It was not forthcoming because it's brand

            6   new and I can understand that.  The Rands, if we start

            7   with the fee, I agree with you 100 percent, this DAC

            8   and I appreciate the DAC, you created Dumont Dunes

            9   because we do not have a group that is constantly

           10   meeting, so Dumont Dunes TRT was created.

           11              The Friends of El Mirage have been meeting

           12   every month now for the last 12 years, every month

           13   they meet.  And I appreciate you giving us the support

           14   that we could act as a quasi-TRT because it's open to

           15   the public.  Anybody could come.  Jawbone Station, the

           16   same thing.  For the last 15 years we have been

           17   meeting and everyone from boards of supervisors -- Don

           18   Maben is a charter member of the group, we meet and we

           19   discuss the issues.

           20              But Steve, I think the district needs to

           21   have some format that -- a plate that you say, okay if

           22   you have a fee, this is what I would like you to

           23   follow up.  No matter what group you are in, bring it

           24   like this so we have it.  We don't really have a

           25   standard thing where it totally shows the transparency
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            1   and at one point where the public can make input on

            2   how you want to spend these funds.

            3              I'm a little concerned that some of the

            4   funds -- oh, we have this money, let's go spend it.

            5   Well, none of us have agreed to any of the ways the

            6   monies are being spent, especially of the fees.  And

            7   Wayne Nosala, because he is on the e-mail and on the

            8   Web sites, he gets the brunt of the complaints:  What

            9   are you doing, both in El Mirage and over up here?

           10   Are you crazy?  And it's very hard for him to be able

           11   to answer it because we don't have all the facts.

           12              So the transparency thing that Mr. Holiday

           13   brought up is a very good point and I appreciate you

           14   doing that.  And I think for any place you in the

           15   desert have a fee, let's come up with standard forms

           16   so no matter what group is working on it and providing

           17   the input from the public, that we can follow that

           18   process very easily and put on the Web sites and --

           19   just put it on the Web sites, period.  That's cool.

           20   Thank you.

           21                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Clarification

           22   question.  Do those fees stay in the desert in the

           23   park, or do they go back to Washington?

           24                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  No, they stay right

           25   in the recreation area where they are generated.
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            1                 CHAIR MABEN:  Question over here.

            2                 MR. LATTIMER:  John Lattimer.  I have a

            3   question about horses and stuff like that.  Why can't

            4   we introduce them someplace else?

            5                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Well, there is no

            6   place else.  The reason we remove horses from the

            7   range is for several folds:  To protect the condition

            8   of the land, the condition of the resource, the

            9   condition of the wildlife habitat.  It provides for

           10   other species that depend on that habitat in that

           11   location.  Also, we do it to protect the health of the

           12   herd that's there that we are trying to maintain.

           13   That herd and that management area has a population

           14   that's set for it that the BLM believes is an amount

           15   that will maintain its integrity and viability and

           16   genetic health.  And that herd shares that land with

           17   other wildlife, other plants and other uses such as in

           18   some cases livestock raising.

           19              And all the land that BLM manages is

           20   planned out.  And allocation of the forage, the

           21   wildlife, and the horses and other authorized uses

           22   depend on there is all allocated.  So we don't have

           23   any other place to put them.  That's why we do

           24   long-term holding facilities on privately-owned land

           25   because those folks can manage their land.  And that
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            1   land can withstand and host those animals and provide

            2   a healthy environment for them.

            3                 MR. DUNLOP:  Chris Dunlop.  Maybe

            4   Mr. Schiller can help on this.  Has there been any

            5   promotion of the adopting of these wild horses or

            6   maybe rental from the facility, just to -- if someone

            7   wanted to ride a horse and take it around or some sort

            8   of fee to offset the costs?

            9                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  We have a very

           10   active adoption program.  And actually, California has

           11   the multiple year, most long-term success in adopting

           12   out animals throughout the U.S.  California is the

           13   leader in BLM's nationwide adoption program.  So we

           14   have a very extensive, very well-publicized, very

           15   well-marketed adoption program.  However, in this past

           16   year what we have seen is due to the economy and the

           17   price of hay tripling from one year to the next, our

           18   adoption rates have fallen.

           19                 MR. DUNLOP:  I never knew about the

           20   program.  That's why I was asking.

           21                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Those people are

           22   actually abandoning horses from the county because

           23   they can't afford to feed them.

           24                 MR. DUNLOP:  Is that promoted in

           25   equestrian magazines or local newspapers or how?
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            1                 MR. SCHILLER:  Everywhere.

            2                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  We do magazines,

            3   radio spots, newspapers advertisements, we use most

            4   media opportunities.  We have the nonprofit groups

            5   that assist us.  One of our successful programs is the

            6   Extreme Mustang Program where we have a training

            7   program.  Horse trainers volunteer to take animals for

            8   a set period of time -- is it 100 days, Steve? -- and

            9   they train the animals.  And it's a little bit like

           10   Extreme Makeover.  We have Extreme Mustang Makeover

           11   program and that's a great publicity tool for us.  And

           12   it's amazing what these trainers can do for these

           13   animals.

           14                 MEMBER HUND:  Maybe a reality program

           15   where we get revenue.

           16                 MEMBER ACUNA:  One quick question.  I

           17   realize there is a sensitivity for keeping these

           18   animals and not putting them down.  But the question

           19   here is if it's 21 million dollars and if we were to

           20   get rid of the ornery ones that nobody wants, could

           21   you take that same money and use it for other programs

           22   or does it go back to Washington?

           23                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  If we could cut our

           24   costs of managing the Wild Horse and Burro program, it

           25   would go back to the other programs that it was
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            1   redirected from by request from BLM and authorized by

            2   Congress about six or seven years ago.  I used to

            3   administer four other programs in our Washington

            4   office that gave blood to the Wild Horse and Burro

            5   program through a congressional reprogramming

            6   permission.  So I assume it would go back to other

            7   programs.

            8                 MEMBER ACUNA:  Thank you.

            9                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I guess -- maybe I'm

           10   getting too old.  It's interesting to watch the way

           11   attitudes change.  I recall here locally actually in

           12   Randsburg every year we had a barbecue, a burro

           13   barbecue, and it was a fundraiser and everybody went.

           14   It didn't taste that bad.  So now I see everybody has

           15   a problem with that, and I just have a problem

           16   understanding that.  I would say maybe you could have

           17   a cook-off challenge between the BLM and Mr. Rudnick

           18   and have a barbecue.

           19                 MR. RUDNICK:  Bring my own horses.

           20                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  One last thing.

           21                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Question and comment

           22   about abandoned mines.  I talked with Sterling White

           23   briefly.  He called me a month ago or six weeks

           24   something like that.  And in the past, the BLM has

           25   obliterated old prospect areas; some are mines, most
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            1   were not, most were just prospects.  But as a

            2   geologist in the mineral business, these are all data

            3   points.  And there were a lot of scams out there,

            4   probably still are a lot of scams, but most of these

            5   prospects were on a geological feature that had some

            6   importance at the time.  So they are all data points.

            7              And I have nothing against filling up a

            8   shaft that's near a trail or something like that.

            9   There are lots of examples where you could easily go

           10   off.  But I do think there has to be some sensitivity

           11   about where these are and some baseline study or

           12   something that's done for all these things.

           13              And also, my second comment is the State of

           14   California Geological Survey also has a database.

           15   They have been working on this abandoned mine thing

           16   for a long time with our Surface Mining and

           17   Reclamation Act classification program.  So there are

           18   databases out there.  And I would hate to see BLM

           19   reinvent the wheel where they could incorporate known

           20   databases for these points.  And there is one with the

           21   State that has something like 26,000 separate data

           22   points.

           23                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Thirty-eight.  We

           24   are aware of it.

           25                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Good.  As you know, I
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            1   don't like to see secret databases.  But the

            2   preservation of the physical and chemical nature of

            3   these sites is important, especially in our future

            4   mineral identification process.  Whether we will ever

            5   have mines in California is another story, but still

            6   geologically they are important databases.

            7                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  With that, we will take

            8   a quick break and resume at 10:45.

            9               (Morning break was taken from

           10                   10:35 to 10:49 a.m.)

           11                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  We are going to the

           12   item on -- under Council reports.  We will start with

           13   Council Renewable Letter.  Geary, you have got the

           14   floor.

           15                 MEMBER HUND:  At our last meeting, as a

           16   result of I would say unanimous concern about the

           17   potential impact of renewable energy projects on the

           18   desert, including natural, cultural, scenic,

           19   recreational resources, mineral resources, we agreed

           20   that we would -- that a couple of the DAC members,

           21   including myself, would draft a letter to the BLM

           22   addressing our concerns about all of these proposed

           23   renewable energy projects.

           24              So there is a draft letter in front of you,

           25   fellow DAC members, that was also sent out via e-mail
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            1   for your consideration.  And if we do make any changes

            2   today, my suggestion is that I try to capture those in

            3   the form of an edited letter, and then I would send it

            4   back out for people to ensure that I was successful in

            5   doing that.

            6              But I would like to suggest today that we

            7   try to adopt a letter with whatever changes the group

            8   wants to include, and then I will actually finalize it

            9   after the meeting, but circulate it to make sure that

           10   I have captured the changes or additions folks might

           11   want to make.  So hopefully you have had a chance to

           12   review the letter, so I will just take comments.

           13                 MEMBER ACUNA:  One question.  Thanks for

           14   writing this.  A nice job.  And this is to the BLM.

           15   There is some discussion about having some sort of

           16   bonding so there could be site restoration after the

           17   renewable has ended on that property.  Is there some

           18   sort of feature for that that the BLM has in place?

           19                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Yes, reclamation

           20   bonding is a standard requirement; in fact, it's a

           21   statutory requirement or a regulatory requirement that

           22   BLM actually secures a reclamation bond as part of the

           23   issuance of the right-of-way process.

           24                 MEMBER ACUNA:  Thank you.

           25                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  I have a question also.
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            1   Probably it is at the discretion of the local area,

            2   but it seems like as far as each contract goes to

            3   everything on public land, they are using the public

            4   resources.  With sand and gravel, you charge by the

            5   ton to remove, or oil or gas leak, you charge by the

            6   gallons removed.  Shouldn't there be some fee

            7   structure associated with the amount of generation

            8   from the plant?  I know it's not taking a resource out

            9   of the system, but it is money that the company is

           10   making off that resource.

           11                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  When BLM authorizes

           12   a use, it follows the laws that Congress has passed

           13   regarding that use, and then the regulations that the

           14   agency promulgates as how it's going to go about

           15   complying with that law.  So we follow the laws that

           16   Congress passes and the regulations that are developed

           17   to comply with that law.  And those regulations and

           18   laws govern how the public receives benefit from

           19   consumptive uses, whether it be oil and gas or

           20   minerals, for example.

           21              The laws and regulations that apply to

           22   renewable energy, specifically solar and wind, at

           23   least for solar -- let me just address solar -- tell

           24   BLM that the way they will -- the public will be

           25   reimbursed for the public land is via a rental of the
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            1   land and has specifically addressed how that rental

            2   rate will be calculated.  So the laws and regulations

            3   did not provide for a royalty such as you would -- the

            4   public receives for oil and gas.  It simply states

            5   that the land will be rented for a set number of

            6   years, and how that rental rate will be calculated.

            7                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  Is that calculation

            8   based on the amount of generation or anything for that

            9   area, or is it strictly an acre?

           10                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I'm going to take my

           11   shot at it and let Al correct me if I haven't got it

           12   right.  But the rental rate is calculated by comparing

           13   comparable rental rates that a similar project would

           14   pay a private property owner.  So it's kind of the

           15   market value out there in the private land.  So that

           16   theoretically, a person renting public lands would pay

           17   the same amount they would pay -- you know, it's

           18   appraised, it's prepared by an appraiser, so the

           19   person, the project proponent would pay the same

           20   amount for the public land or the American public as

           21   they would a private landowner.

           22                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  That seems kind of

           23   interesting because I believe a private landowner

           24   would get a royalty off of that.

           25                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Anything you want to
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            1   add, Al?

            2                 MR. STEIN:  BLM, Al Stein.  We have in

            3   the past had wind energy projects where we have

            4   assessed rental and also assessed a fee, depending

            5   upon how much power was generated.  We haven't really

            6   determined which way we are going to go at this point,

            7   but assessing rental based on partially or wholly the

            8   amount of power that's generated is a very cumbersome

            9   process in terms of monitoring all their books and

           10   making sure that they provide the appropriate

           11   information as to how much power they are generating,

           12   how much power they are getting paid for, and it takes

           13   a lot of work to do that.

           14              So that's part of what may be factored into

           15   whatever decision Washington makes, because they are

           16   going to make a decision Bureauwide.

           17                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  I can tell you that the

           18   amount of power that's generated by the facility is

           19   monitored every four seconds.  There is a transducer

           20   there and that energy goes to some location, the

           21   amount that is coming out of that plant, every four

           22   seconds.  So the amount of trouble to monitor it --

           23   you can put your own transducer in there and monitor

           24   that every four seconds.  And that's usually part of

           25   these contracts for the wind farms when Edison had
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            1   them.  We actually had transducers there and we

            2   monitored every four seconds the output of that plant,

            3   so we can calculate the amount of kilowatt hours

            4   almost on an instantaneous basis.

            5                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  I guess my question is

            6   for Steve.  On an ACEC, which is restricted to this

            7   kind of power, wind power or solar now, I assume?

            8                 MR. BORCHARD:  The current policy that

            9   is being -- that is undergoing rewriting, the current

           10   policy does prohibit wind development in ACECs.

           11   However, we have come out publicly and told the public

           12   that policy is being rewritten right now.

           13                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  The same for solar?

           14                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  No.  Solar is not --

           15   from a policy perspective, there is no policy

           16   restricting solar development in ACECs currently.

           17                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  What is the process for

           18   redoing the boundaries or doing away with an ACEC if

           19   it's found that an ACEC is not necessary?  Things

           20   change?

           21                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Well, ACECs are

           22   designated through a land use planning process.  So I

           23   would assume if we were considering taking that

           24   designation off -- de-designating an ACEC, it would go

           25   through the same public land planning process.
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            1                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Any other Council

            2   reports?

            3                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Council report?  Or

            4   are we still on the letter?

            5                 MEMBER HUND:  I think as a group we need

            6   to decide whether or not we are going to adopt the

            7   letter.  I realize that we haven't summarized that

            8   letter at all to the members of the audience, and I

            9   was thinking maybe I could take just two or three

           10   minutes to summarize the letter to the public, if you

           11   folks agree.

           12                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Any objection to that?

           13                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  It might be better to

           14   summarize it when the Council comes to a consensus on

           15   the letter.  It seems a little premature right now.

           16                 MEMBER HUND:  Sure.

           17                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I thought the letter

           18   was well written and I thank you for writing it.  I

           19   just wanted to note that in one part you stated that

           20   there is no alternative -- no action alternative would

           21   be included in all of that, and I believe if you look

           22   by law, it even requires no action alternative on

           23   everything to reflect the standards of the public

           24   notice, what the existing is.

           25                 MEMBER HUND:  Yeah, that's correct.  The
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            1   way it's written, it's just basically reminding them

            2   of what the Council on Environmental Quality says that

            3   they need to do and ask that they specifically follow

            4   that.  So to an extent, it's redundant, but on the

            5   other hand, I think it's helpful to remind them.

            6                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I have no problem with

            7   that.

            8                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  What is our next step

            9   here?  Just review it and come back with additional

           10   comments?

           11                 MEMBER HUND:  Today what I would ask is

           12   we consider the adoption of the letter so that our

           13   Chair, on behalf of the rest of us, can send it to

           14   Steve.  And I would recommend that we cc Michael Pool

           15   and perhaps the appropriate person in D.C., as well.

           16                 MEMBER BANIS:  I guess, if I may for

           17   parliamentary reasons so we can discuss this and

           18   potentially offer amendments to it, I move that we

           19   accept this letter.  Just so we can start the

           20   discussion.

           21                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Is there a second?

           22                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  I'll second.

           23                 MEMBER BANIS:  All in favor of this.  A

           24   chance to offer amendments and changes.

           25                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  I would like to start
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            1   it off by discussing.  I find it ironic that I would

            2   agree with Geary on something like this.

            3                 MEMBER HUND:  That's surprising.  I

            4   tried to make the letter representing all of us.

            5                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  However, I do have two

            6   important considerations.  First, "recognizes the need

            7   to reduce the nation's dependency on foreign oil."

            8   Developing alternative methods of generating

            9   electricity does not reduce our dependence on oil

           10   unless, and importantly, our country segueways in a

           11   very big way to electric vehicles because oil is

           12   strictly transportation related.  It's not the same as

           13   generating electricity.  So I think that that sentence

           14   either needs to be modified in some way to include

           15   transport -- using electric vehicles in a major way,

           16   not just the way we have it now or even projected into

           17   the future, but in a major way.

           18              And secondly, reducing pollution is always

           19   a needed thing to do if we can.  However, there is no

           20   scientific evidence that the generation, human or

           21   otherwise, of CO2 drives climate change.  So I think we

           22   need to modify that or simply leave it out.  But

           23   generating alternative ways of generating electricity,

           24   developing alternative ways of generating electricity

           25   is pretty much in our political culture by mandates.
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            1   I agree with Geary's proposals, especially in

            2   principle, as a land user.

            3                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  I have to disagree with

            4   you on the electric vehicles.  I think it ought to be

            5   alternate fuel vehicles because there is more than one

            6   source of power.

            7                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Yes, something like

            8   that.

            9                 MEMBER HUND:  Just quickly in response,

           10   I think what I was trying to accomplish here is a

           11   general statement of our understanding of this problem

           12   and our reasonableness.  So that's why I said we

           13   recognize the need to reduce the nation's dependency

           14   on foreign oil and reduce greenhouse gases because

           15   those are national goals.

           16                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I do have a little

           17   bit of an issue of the greenhouse gas issue because

           18   there are experts that you go both ways.  There is an

           19   expert that says it will cause climate changes and

           20   those who say it doesn't.  And I'm not sure that is

           21   appropriate.  It's such a controversial issue, I think

           22   about our body, being so diverse, we should step away

           23   from that comment.  I would just be more comfortable

           24   if that was just left out.

           25                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  I would agree with
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            1   that.

            2                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  May I follow up there?

            3   And also, this letter addresses the mandate of the BLM

            4   to accommodate proposals for alternative energy;

            5   right?  So regardless of what is driving the mandate,

            6   the BLM is forced to do it.  So our reasons, which are

            7   scientifically -- I don't think is scientifically

            8   controversial -- what we are trying to do is provide

            9   the BLM with some kind of usable advice.  And I think

           10   that the reasons for doing this are irrelevant.  The

           11   BLM is mandated to do it, so therefore, we should be

           12   in a position of helping them make these decisions.

           13                 MEMBER CHARLTON:  I almost quoted the

           14   paragraphs in this Newsweek article that said that the

           15   United States is about the only country in the world

           16   who still considers greenhouse gas issue controversial

           17   because of the present administration's policies and

           18   collusion with the petroleum industry.

           19              I spent months reading articles and going

           20   to conferences on it and everything else, and I don't

           21   see anything controversial about it at all.  There is

           22   a controversial term about what percentage is man

           23   driven and what percentage is part of a natural cycle

           24   that's taking place.  But it's taking place and it's

           25   causing problems.  And these problems are bigger than
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            1   the economic problems that we have right now.

            2                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  I have a question,

            3   Steve.  State of California has legislation related to

            4   greenhouse gases and their management.  Are you

            5   subject to that legislation, or because you are a

            6   federal agency, you are not under it?

            7                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I don't know.  It

            8   seems to me if you get to the crux of the matter, the

            9   State of California regulation specifically addresses

           10   just carbon dioxide reduction and sets goals for

           11   achievement of reduction of carbon dioxide.  So

           12   without saying -- without reaching agreement that

           13   carbon dioxide is the scientific cause of climate

           14   change, I think what we can do is address the issue of

           15   carbon dioxide reduction.  Maybe if this body cannot

           16   reach agreement on a mutually agreeable statement

           17   about greenhouse gas reduction, this body might be

           18   able to reach agreement that they support the state

           19   legislature's mandate to reduce carbon dioxide

           20   emissions.

           21                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Maybe rather than

           22   "support," say "recognize" the mandate.  Support

           23   implies something totally different.

           24                 MR. BORCHARD:  Stay away from the word

           25   "greenhouse gas" and focus on those things we can
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            1   support, or recognize mandates that are already out

            2   there in this renewable mandate that BLM has.  It's a

            3   good idea to focus on that.

            4                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  I think the mandate is

            5   to acknowledge that we need to reduce our dependence

            6   on fossil fuel, for whatever reason, economic or

            7   climate change or anything.  It's something that we

            8   need to reduce, and that's what the renewable

            9   resources are for is to reduce our dependency on

           10   fossil fuels.

           11                 MEMBER HUND:  I understand.  I think I

           12   can rewrite the sentence to talk about the CO2 mandate

           13   and reduction on dependency on foreign oil and drop

           14   the greenhouse gases.  And I do want to say I think we

           15   all have to get where we can live with this letter

           16   because we are all going to have things that we don't

           17   feel 100 percent behind, but try to get to a place

           18   where we all feel like we can lend our name to this,

           19   even if we don't agree 100 percent.

           20              So I would suggest that we rewrite that

           21   sentence to reflect the discussion we've had, and we

           22   could adopt the letter with that change and any others

           23   that we might make as we go along in our discussion

           24   here.  And then I will rewrite it to try to capture

           25   that and send it back out to the group and if
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            1   everybody agrees with it, we can have an official --

            2                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I don't have any

            3   other problems with the letter.

            4                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  I think if we can put

            5   that in a little different context, we can approve it.

            6                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Is there any further

            7   discussion?

            8                 MEMBER BANIS:  Just simply restate my

            9   motion and if it's okay with the seconder of the

           10   motion, I think I would like to achieve the term we

           11   brought in to say that the DAC approves in principle

           12   the letter that has been drafted, and accepts the

           13   suggestions or the plans that Geary will modify that

           14   letter for our approval.  Is that okay with the

           15   seconder of the motion?

           16                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Yes, I second it.

           17                 MEMBER HUND:  I want to quickly say I'm

           18   recommending a change to third paragraph, towards the

           19   bottom where it says "as such."  I just used the word

           20   "ensure" twice, so I rewrote the sentence to say "As

           21   such, it's imperative that processes be developed to

           22   ensure that renewable energy projects are

           23   appropriately limited in size, number, and location so

           24   they do not cause unacceptable harm."  Just a very

           25   slight change to make it read better.
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            1                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  With that, all in

            2   favor.  Aye.  Opposed?  (Voice vote taken.)  Motion

            3   carries.

            4                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Thank you for your

            5   effort.

            6                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  I would like to divert

            7   from the agenda briefly.  I believe Supervisor from

            8   San Bernardino County is here.

            9                 SUPERVISOR MITZELFELT:  I'll wait until

           10   public comment.

           11                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  You want to wait until

           12   public comment?

           13                 SUPERVISOR MITZELFELT:  Yes.  Thank you,

           14   though.

           15                 MEMBER HUND:  Should I briefly summarize

           16   the letter?

           17                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Yes, sir.

           18                 MEMBER HUND:  So for the members of the

           19   public, what we did was we drafted a letter to Steve

           20   Borchard and the BLM about proposed renewable energy

           21   projects in the desert.  And I will briefly touch on

           22   some of the high points of the letter.

           23              One does say that the DAC recognizes the

           24   need to meet California CO2 mandates and reduce the

           25   nation's dependency on foreign oil.  And we go on to
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            1   say, "We support this goal.  However, as a diverse

            2   body of individuals representing an equally diverse

            3   group of constituents and geographic areas, we are

            4   very concerned that the rush to accommodate renewable

            5   energy projects in the California desert could result

            6   in the permitting and development of projects which

            7   cause unacceptable impacts to the resources of the

            8   California Desert Conservation Area, projects which on

            9   balance will be of greater cost than benefit."

           10              And then we go on to talk about specific

           11   ways that the BLM could help to ensure that those

           12   kinds of impacts don't happen.  And we talk about

           13   acceptable project areas, and we ask that that

           14   projects avoid areas containing important natural,

           15   cultural, and recreational resources.  And among those

           16   recreational resources are off-highway vehicle --

           17   designated off-highway vehicle areas since those don't

           18   have coverage under NEPA that would help protect them.

           19              We also ask that the BLM prioritize

           20   disturbed or otherwise impacted areas near existing or

           21   officially designated electrical transmission

           22   corridors.  For example, those that were determined in

           23   the writing and development of the California Desert

           24   Conservation Area Management Plan.  Might not be a

           25   corridor right now, but those corridors were
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            1   identified through lots of public input and consensus.

            2              We also talk about asking the BLM to

            3   carefully evaluate the need for each project, its

            4   purpose and need.  We ask them to look at

            5   alternatives, including locating the plants on private

            6   lands and also on military land that has been

            7   abandoned, is no longer being used.  That either is

            8   where they could be developed now or where remediation

            9   of the site can allow for development.

           10              We ask that they include a cumulative

           11   effects analysis.  We specifically talk about

           12   potential impacts to recreational resources and ask

           13   that those be considered, including not only the off-

           14   highway vehicle areas, but also motorized and

           15   nonmotorized trails, rockhounding areas, and other

           16   recreational resources.  We ask that they look at

           17   potential impacts to wildlife movement, because in

           18   some cases they propose very large projects, large,

           19   long linear projects on both sides of Interstates for

           20   miles that could block wildlife movement, and for that

           21   matter, the movement of the motorized and nonmotorized

           22   recreational users.

           23              We also asked them to really take a look at

           24   economic viability and compensation, making sure that

           25   the public is fairly compensated in the event that
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            1   projects are approved, and we discussed that a little

            2   bit.  Also, best management practices.  The Wind

            3   Energy Programmatic Environmental Impact Statement

            4   developed best management practices for the siting,

            5   development and maintenance of these facilities.  And

            6   we want to make sure where they are permitted and

            7   developed, that they have consistent best management

            8   practices that ensure that impacts are minimized.

            9              Also project remediation, we want to make

           10   sure if a project is approved, that there are

           11   sufficient funds to provide for the site's reclamation

           12   in the event that it's abandoned or otherwise

           13   terminated.  Oh, and I think a very important aspect

           14   of it is public participation in the NEPA review

           15   process, because it is possible when this Programatic

           16   EIS is completed for solar energy, that some projects

           17   could be done with an environmental assessment.  It's

           18   not likely, but it's possible.  And they don't

           19   automatically require public input.  And so we wanted

           20   to ensure that all solar projects individually have a

           21   process by which the public can be involved in giving

           22   them input because we feel that's good public policy.

           23                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Thank you, Geary.  We

           24   are going to hold off on public comment on this

           25   particular issue since this is a DAC issue.
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            1                 MR. WALDHEIM:  Is this just BLM land,

            2   not private land?

            3                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Just federal property.

            4                 MEMBER HUND:  I just wanted to mention

            5   that we do recommend that BLM, in consideration of

            6   alternatives, look at the alternatives that the energy

            7   companies might have on private land or military land

            8   or other locations or even outside the desert:

            9   Rooftop, solar development of smaller facilities

           10   closer to where the energy demand is.

           11                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Any other Council

           12   comments?

           13                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Are we on Council

           14   reports or on his letter?

           15                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  His letter is part of

           16   Council reports.

           17                 MEMBER HUND:  The two agenda items were

           18   sort of melded together.

           19                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I have a couple

           20   comments/requests, and I don't know if I'm even

           21   allowed to do this.  I would request that the next

           22   meeting be held in Barstow and we have a tour of

           23   Johnson Valley and possibly the Hammers.  It's an

           24   extreme rock crawling area that is near and dear to

           25   the hearts of many off-roaders.
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            1              I also wanted to make a couple of

            2   statements with the withdrawal meeting that the

            3   military held.  They held a withdrawal meeting to

            4   explain to the public that segregation.  In that

            5   meeting they just held an open house-type meeting.

            6   You walked in and there were story boards.  They

            7   didn't actually give you a presentation and explain

            8   the process.  And I was very disappointed with that

            9   format.

           10              I really think for something that's going

           11   to have this type of an impact to the public, that

           12   they should make some type of formal presentation

           13   because your general public, Joe Blow public-at-large

           14   probably doesn't understand the NEPA process.  And

           15   this process is a little bit more confusing than the

           16   regular NEPA process, withdrawal, segregation, and all

           17   that other good stuff.

           18              And so I would like to request that the DAC

           19   as a body write a letter to the military explaining

           20   that we were a little bit disappointed with that

           21   format and that we would like that the scoping

           22   meetings that are coming up have a formal

           23   presentation.  It's very hard for the public-at-large

           24   without any framework to understand -- without them

           25   putting up the framework of the process, to engage in
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            1   constructive comments or have constructive input.  I

            2   think that's very important.  And I have been getting

            3   the feeling that the military is not going to put on a

            4   formal presentation at their scoping meetings.  And I

            5   think that's very important.  And I will write the

            6   letter.  Geary can help me.  Whatever.

            7                 MEMBER HUND:  I'll skip one.

            8                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I will write the

            9   letter and circulate it to the DAC if that is okay

           10   with everyone.  I don't know if you need a motion.

           11                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Can we make a comment?

           12   I will object to a letter.  There are opportunities

           13   for the public.  The Friends of the Johnson Valley or

           14   something like that have regular meetings and they

           15   always have a presentation from the publicity guy from

           16   the military to do that.  And we have already --

           17   haven't we already resolved to have somebody from

           18   Twentynine Palms to come at our future DAC meetings

           19   and have a regular meeting?  Didn't we decide on that

           20   this morning?  I know my mind is going, but I don't

           21   object to a letter.  I'm not sure it will do much

           22   good.

           23                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I think it's

           24   important that we tell them how we feel, so therefore,

           25   we are not just back here complaining about what they
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            1   are doing.  That we are clear about our feelings about

            2   how public input should be taken.  So if there is any

            3   objection, does anybody want to make a motion?

            4                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  Send a letter around.

            5                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Okay.  I wanted to

            6   know if it is appropriate for the DAC to submit

            7   official scoping comments on the NOI for PEIS.  Is

            8   that an appropriate thing for us to do?  Since I'm

            9   new, I don't know if you make comments on public

           10   documents.

           11                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I guess the DAC

           12   charter suggests that the purpose of the body is to

           13   provide assistance and recommendations to the BLM on

           14   land management.  So I mean, under that purpose, I

           15   don't see why not.  I mean, this is a public land

           16   management issue.

           17                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I'm more than

           18   willing again to write those comments and send them

           19   around to everybody for editing.

           20                 MEMBER HUND:  I wasn't necessarily

           21   volunteering, but I would be glad to help out.  But

           22   just not author it.  Maybe the meeting after next if

           23   we have a letter.

           24              But would it possibly be that, based on our

           25   charter, the appropriate way to do that, would it be
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            1   for us to make comments to you with a copy to the

            2   military?  Or is that -- or could we just -- you think

            3   we could comment directly to the military?

            4                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  I think it would be

            5   better to make comments to the BLM, and we can send

            6   copies to them.

            7                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Under the NEPA, the

            8   military is the lead and BLM is a cooperator.  So if

            9   the DAC wants to make comments during the scoping

           10   period, who they come to, I guess I don't -- I'm not

           11   going to worry about that detail.

           12                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Either way, they

           13   have to be folded into a NEPA.  But you get them

           14   directly from the military, since you are a

           15   cooperating agency; correct?

           16                 MEMBER HUND:  If you are a cooperating

           17   agency, then in essence, we would be writing those

           18   comments to you as well as to them.

           19                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  It's a fine line.

           20                 MEMBER ACUNA:  I'm in support of where

           21   you are going.  I think we are better off as a group

           22   having our own voice and saying that to the military,

           23   cc'ing the BLM if we have that authority.  Let's not

           24   throw more stuff on the BLM to do.  And there is also

           25   the intervenor process that is available, which gives
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            1   you a higher status if you pushed it further into the

            2   proceeding of the actual action.

            3                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Is that only in a

            4   lawsuit?  Is there an intervenor process in the NEPA

            5   process?

            6                 MEMBER ACUNA:  Isn't there a process,

            7   Steve, where you can actually file for a higher level

            8   in the beginning, in the noticing?

            9                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Al, can you help us

           10   with this?

           11                 MR. STEIN:  The DAC is part of BLM.

           12   They are part of BLM's process to develop BLM's

           13   opinion and views in management of public lands.  So

           14   in that, you are -- you are in essence a part of our

           15   cooperating agency status.  So you can comment to us

           16   or comment directly to the military with a copy to us,

           17   but it really is part of BLM, and entering into

           18   something like an intervenor status, independent of

           19   BLM, really I don't think is appropriate.

           20                 MEMBER ACUNA:  So to conclude, maybe

           21   that's something that ORBA would want to do on their

           22   own?

           23                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I never heard that,

           24   but I will gladly write the letter.  And our one last

           25   thing I would like to officially request that a
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            1   military representative be here at these meetings.

            2   And if that's a letter that the DAC has to write

            3   instead of the BLM, I will write that letter also.

            4   Would you like that?

            5                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Let me see what I

            6   can accomplish and save you that work and see if I can

            7   get a commitment for them to come.

            8                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Okay.

            9                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  If I can't, then

           10   possibly a letter from you would be --

           11                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  That's all I have.

           12   I'm trying to be brief.

           13                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I have a question.

           14   Under this process where you are talking about the

           15   withdrawal, who makes the decision, the Army or the

           16   BLM?  If the Army is holding the meetings --

           17                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Who makes what

           18   decision?

           19                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Well, that's the

           20   question I'm asking.

           21                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  The presentation at

           22   the scoping meeting?

           23                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Right.  We are talking

           24   about a scoping meeting -- I'm a little confused on

           25   who is the lead agency here and who is the deciding
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            1   officer in this process.  If it's BLM-administered

            2   public land, doesn't the BLM make the decision and not

            3   the Army or the Marines?  And why are the Marines

            4   holding the scoping meetings if it's a BLM-

            5   administered land?

            6                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Because they are the

            7   lead in the NEPA process.

            8                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Even though -- even

            9   though it's BLM-administered land?  Because I have a

           10   concern with the format, as well.  It's well known --

           11   or excuse me -- the process used is called the Delphi

           12   process.  It was developed by Rand to hold the meeting

           13   in that format.  And I would urge anybody that's

           14   interested to look at the Delphi process up on the

           15   Internet and it gives an explanation of that process,

           16   because I believe that process and that format is

           17   contrary to NEPA.  But I'm a little surprised that the

           18   Army is controlling the meetings in this case.

           19                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Al might be able --

           20                 MR. STEIN:  You are talking about

           21   writing a letter, but that letter itself is not

           22   necessary.  The DAC can at this meeting discuss it and

           23   decide to approve in consensus that BLM encourage the

           24   military to hold open public meetings.  That is an

           25   option for the DAC that could be accomplished
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            1   immediately.

            2                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I will be happy to

            3   talk to the military, as we did at the last meeting.

            4   Roxie told the colonel that he was going to do a

            5   public meeting.

            6                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I think we need

            7   something in writing.

            8                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Yeah.  I will be

            9   happy to call my boss and have my boss talk to general

           10   Leonard about that.

           11                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I talked to your

           12   boss in El Mirage.

           13                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I don't have a

           14   problem with that at all.

           15                 MR. WALDHEIM:  You have to make very

           16   clear that what Meg is talking about is two separate

           17   meetings.  What we just went through was a BLM

           18   meeting.  It was not a military meeting.  That was a

           19   BLM meeting, so if there was criticism in the format,

           20   that should be going to Steve.  It was BLM, it was not

           21   military.  I want to make sure we do not blame the

           22   military for something over which they had no control.

           23              Now, the meetings that are taking place

           24   from now on, yes, those are military.  But the two

           25   scoping meetings or the two meetings we had on the
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            1   withdrawal, they were run by Roxie, BLM meetings.  If

            2   that format wasn't acceptable, please do not badger

            3   the military on that.  Do you want the military to do

            4   something differently?  Of course.  But let's not mix

            5   the two together.  They are not going to like that.

            6   It was a Roxie BLM meeting, not a military meeting.

            7                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Thank you.  Any other

            8   Council comments?

            9                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I would like to

           10   report.

           11              As you know this is my last meeting.  My

           12   term expires the end of next month.  I would like to

           13   say it's been a very rewarding experience.  If I had

           14   any recommendation to the new people coming on, I

           15   would have to say participate and maintain a good

           16   sense of humor, because sometimes you will need it.

           17   But I can't believe six years have gone by so fast.

           18              As I came into the room this morning, in

           19   the six years I have been on the DAC, we haven't had a

           20   meeting in this room.  But I thought it was ironic

           21   that the very first public land management meeting I

           22   ever attended was in this very room at a DAC meeting

           23   in 1983 when Inyo County Supervisor Johnny Johnson was

           24   the chair and Gerry Hillier was the manager rather

           25   than the District Manager.  And it was interesting,
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            1   Marie Brashear was a member.  Richard Rudnick was a

            2   member at that time.  And I remember Patty McClain

            3   being the local resource area manager.

            4              And it was interesting that I came to this

            5   meeting over an Inyo National Forest issue.  I didn't

            6   know any difference from one to the other.  It just

            7   happened that Johnny Johnson did solve a problem for

            8   me.  But I just thought it was very ironic that my

            9   first public land meeting and my last DAC meeting

           10   would be in this room.

           11              The only two disappointments I have really

           12   had are that the two hot issues when I came on the DAC

           13   six years ago were Surprise Canyon and Furnace Creek.

           14   I have been on the TRT for Surprise Canyon, and we

           15   still have no resolution on that issue yet after six

           16   years.  I hope to be considered on future TRTs by this

           17   group, and I would like to say thank you to all of

           18   you.

           19                (Applause from the audience.)

           20               DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Since you are talking,

           21   come up here and stand up.  This is as good a time as

           22   any to present you with this award as a small token of

           23   BLM's appreciation for your six years of diligent and

           24   active participation as a DAC member.  You greatly

           25   enriched the dialogue and well represented the
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            1   stakeholder groups that you served on this board.  And

            2   we sincerely appreciate your participation.  I for one

            3   look forward to your continued participation via the

            4   TRTs on subjects of your interest.  So thank you very

            5   much, Ron.

            6                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Thank you very much.

            7                (Applause from the audience.)

            8                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I very much appreciate

            9   this.  Just to let you know that you are not rid of

           10   me, I'll still be at the peanut gallery out there.  So

           11   thank you very much.

           12                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Very good.  Thank

           13   you.

           14                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  We do have another.  We

           15   might as well do this all at once.

           16                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I will walk around

           17   the table to Dave, since he is here despite the two

           18   weeks, the short time that's passed since his surgery.

           19   Dave, you also contributed six years of time.

           20                 MEMBER CHARLTON:  Five.

           21                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Five years of active

           22   and helpful participation as a DAC member representing

           23   your interests and the interests that you were

           24   nominated to serve for.  And also your participation

           25   has enriched the dialogue and represented well your
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            1   constituency.  So thank you.  And I also would offer

            2   to that your participation on the Technical Review

            3   Teams is also welcome, if the DAC so decides to elect

            4   your participation through that forum.  So thank you

            5   very much.

            6                 MEMBER CHARLTON:  Again, it's a learning

            7   experience for me.  I did a lot more listening than I

            8   did talking.  I enjoyed it.  I don't want to leave.  I

            9   could go on with this endlessly.  I just hope that I

           10   will continue to get the e-mails.  And the ones that I

           11   am close enough to like Barstow, I will attend as many

           12   as I can, continue to learn.  It's been a very

           13   enriching experience for me and enjoyable.  There has

           14   been very few contentious items.  We had our

           15   Adopt-a-Cabin program.  We spent a lot of time with

           16   that.  It was an unanimous decision and working in a

           17   good area there, and it was very pleasant.  Thanks.

           18                (Applause from the audience.)

           19                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Randy.

           20                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  May I interrupt on

           21   a matter of public safety because I have to deal with

           22   the CHP.

           23              Fire updates.  Right now the Riverside

           24   freeway is closed.  There are two fires burning out of

           25   control in Yorba Linda and Corona.  The Newhall Pass
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            1   is closed to all traffic, north and southbound, except

            2   for emergency personnel responding to the Sylmar fire

            3   and spreading possibly to Granada Hills.  And there is

            4   a fire burning out of control in Rancho Palos Verdes.

            5   So I wouldn't be able to get home.

            6                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  We have good motels up

            7   here.

            8                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Sorry to interrupt.

            9   But I thought people would want to know that.

           10                 MEMBER BANIS:  I would like to

           11   recommend, please, that the BLM apply for a grant this

           12   Spring, an OHV grant, to develop an e-maps program

           13   with GPS routes to help with back country travel.  I

           14   would like to suggest that the BLM implement RSS feed

           15   for their news area so that folks can get news items

           16   automatically without having to visit the Web site

           17   periodically.

           18              And I would like to thank the BLM for

           19   waiving the fees on Veteran's Day for its recreational

           20   use areas.  I'm not a Veteran, but I certainly

           21   appreciate everything the Veterans have done for us

           22   and that was a very kind gesture to do it.  I hope

           23   that continues with the BLM.

           24              I would also like to ask the BLM to

           25   consider doing its own EIS for Surprise Canyon for its
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            1   areas below the National Park.  And lastly, I would

            2   like to reiterate my request for the BLM to consider a

            3   hiking path into the Surprise Canyon area.  Let me

            4   just say that we did take a nice, vigorous walk

            5   yesterday.  But the real choked-up sections that makes

            6   it difficult to get through were about 30 minutes

            7   beyond where we stopped.  So what you saw in the lower

            8   canyon was not what I call the choked-out section.

            9   But even then, it was a little willy-nilly for us

           10   getting up to where we did.  But thank you very much.

           11   That's all I have.

           12                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Any other?  Okay.  With

           13   that, we will get on to field office reports.  You

           14   have some kind of order you want to do that in?

           15                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Well, we could go

           16   alphabetically, although Barstow is not here.

           17                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Barstow first.

           18                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Mickey already

           19   presented his report.  I think you all have paper

           20   copies of the report.  And some of them were posted on

           21   the Web on time and some of them weren't, so I

           22   apologize.  We will continue to work at getting those

           23   reports posted on the Web for you.  We agreed to two

           24   weeks prior to the meeting time slot.

           25              I would suggest that we open it up to
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            1   members of the DAC to ask questions of the

            2   representatives of each of the field offices who have

            3   a report here, I guess in the interest of time

            4   consumption, rather than have my field managers come

            5   up and reiterate what we have already provided for you

            6   in the report.  Maybe you individual members, if they

            7   have any questions about items that are in the report,

            8   that you will have our field managers or their actings

            9   or otherwise respond to those questions.

           10                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Why don't we take it

           11   by resource areas instead of jumping around?

           12                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Just let each member

           13   ask a question, and I believe you are ready to go.

           14                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  I have some questions.

           15   We were given the budget for the Imperial Sand Dunes

           16   Recreation Area.  And I provided you guys with some

           17   questions that I had for the management there.  And

           18   again, the budget items that we were given does not

           19   look like, to me anyway -- it's kind of way over

           20   stated for the amount of money we are going to collect

           21   from the permits.  So I need to have a question

           22   answered this morning.  And again, I have a list here.

           23   Does this represent all the expenses and revenue for

           24   the 2008-2009 season?

           25                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Is Vicki here?
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            1                 MS. WOOD:  I am here, but I can't hear a

            2   word of what you are saying with this air conditioner.

            3                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Come on down.

            4                 MS. WOOD:  So, yes, we did provide the

            5   little handout, and it does include all of the revenue

            6   and all the expenditures that we know to date.

            7                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  You anticipate getting

            8   $3,700,000 from permits?

            9                 MS. WOOD:  That's our best estimate

           10   based on last year's numbers.

           11                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  In the -- what makes up

           12   the $1,300,000 of funds to start for next year?  Is

           13   that for labor and trash service or contracts.

           14                 MS. WOOD:  One million for the fee

           15   contract.  And $376,000 to be divided up between

           16   toilet maintenance and toilet rentals and cleaning.

           17                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  Do you anticipate a fee

           18   increase next year?

           19                 MS. WOOD:  We do not anticipate a fee

           20   increase.

           21                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  For the reduction in

           22   trash service that we will be having another

           23   discussion on here, is that going to allow any

           24   additional improvements in the area, like not

           25   spending -- I know it was a budget deficit, but if we
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            1   are going to reduce the amount of trash, is there

            2   going to be any additional improvements?

            3                 MS. WOOD:  Well, since we can't open the

            4   crystal ball and predict how much we are going to

            5   collect at this point, balancing the budget does not

            6   include any additional projects on the ground for next

            7   year.

            8                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  So this represents a

            9   balanced budget as far as you are concerned?

           10                 MS. WOOD:  Yes, sir.

           11                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  Okay.  One of the

           12   questions -- other questions that came up that I ran

           13   across here in doing research for these questions was

           14   in the area of the fee contractor.  The contract fee

           15   we have, as you know, the last year the amount of

           16   money that was paid to vendors other than a contractor

           17   was split between the users -- when I say user/BLM and

           18   the contractor, they split that fee.  For this year,

           19   from what I have heard from the contractor, is the

           20   user, the BLM, is paying the total amount of that

           21   vendor fee; is that correct?

           22                 MS. WOOD:  That's correct.

           23                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  Why did we change from

           24   the visitors paying a portion of the fee to the

           25   visitors paying all the fee?
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            1                 MS. WOOD:  That really wasn't even how

            2   it was intended to be split out or anything like that.

            3   This is a whole new animal, the way we are running fee

            4   collection this year because it's a contract, not an

            5   assistance agreement with a partner.  And so anything

            6   that came out about how the contractor is getting

            7   paid, how much he's getting paid, was done through

            8   contract negotiations.  And to get any more specific

            9   with that, you would need to ask the contracting

           10   officer.

           11                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  There was nothing in

           12   the contract to specify -- I worked on the contract,

           13   and there was nothing in the contract to specify that

           14   the users were going to pay the vendor fees.  And in

           15   fact, the gentleman that I worked with in doing the

           16   contracts bid this job thinking that that was part of

           17   his responsibility.  So to now have the users having

           18   to pay that 10 percent is not something that I am real

           19   happy with, and we will have to see what remedies we

           20   have for that.  That's all I have.

           21                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Any other questions for

           22   her?

           23                 MEMBER ACUNA:  Hi, Vicki.  I have a

           24   question regarding Truck Haven geothermal leasing

           25   area.  Couple questions.  As you are doing your EIS,
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            1   is there a preferred alternative proposed in the EIS?

            2   What is it?

            3                 MS. WOOD:  Truckhaven is already a

            4   Record of Decision.  That process is done.

            5                 MEMBER ACUNA:  All 14,000 acres?

            6                 MS. WOOD:  Yes.

            7                 MEMBER ACUNA:  I was just looking at the

            8   report here, and I guess I lost that.

            9              By the way, what is the potential?  Do you

           10   have any numbers on geothermal megawatt possibilities

           11   that could be produced from that area?  Has anybody

           12   ever given -- this is a curious question.  I heard

           13   that the Imperial Valley is supposed to be heavy

           14   geothermal and a lot of energies could come from the

           15   Valley.  And I was wondering if Truckhaven -- any

           16   idea what that would be?

           17                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I think there was a

           18   number in the EIS.  I don't know what it is.

           19                 MS. WOOD:  We can get back to you on

           20   that.  I'm not exactly sure.  There are some known

           21   geothermal resources in that area.  That's the reason

           22   it was selected.

           23                 MR. STEIN:  Let me clarify that a little

           24   bit.  The Truckhaven EIS had an assumption for a

           25   reasonably foreseeable development in the area in
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            1   terms of what the development would look like and how

            2   many megawatts it would generate.  The Truckhaven EIS

            3   that we just finished is for leasing, not for

            4   development.  There will be additional analysis and

            5   public involvement for development when we get

            6   proposals from the companies.  But before they do

            7   that, they have to unitize the whole area of Truck-

            8  haven as developed as a unit rather than each

            9   independent piece.

           10                 MEMBER ACUNA:  Thank you for that

           11   clarification.  That makes perfect sense.  Just the

           12   idea of leasing is one idea, and the disturbance on

           13   the ground is another.

           14                 MS. WOOD:  And will be considered later

           15   as a separate project.  So there will be another

           16   environmental look.  Yes.

           17                 MEMBER ACUNA:  Thanks.

           18                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Thank you.  Ron.

           19                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I have a question on

           20   the Ridgecrest.  Under the heading "Mineral

           21   exploration, drilling proposal for the Timber Line

           22   Resources Corporation," it notes that this -- that

           23   there are 4,000 comments from the public concerned

           24   over that proposal.  I'm curious as to the nature of

           25   those comments?  Are those all one way or the other?
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            1   Do they look like they were solicited and put together

            2   or form letters or how would you characterize those?

            3                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  Hector Villalobos, BLM

            4   field manager in Ridgecrest.

            5              We received a couple of waves of comment

            6   letters that came in, generally generated through our

            7   computers or through computers.  They were form

            8   letters for the most part that used maybe a half dozen

            9   different formats.  And they were generated from the

           10   public through Web sites that they had access to.

           11   Generally, I think the Web sites were like Center for

           12   Biodiversity and another Web site.  So we got some

           13   waves of comments that came in, basically expressing

           14   the concern about the exploration and future mining

           15   that it might lead to.  They generally preferred that

           16   this project be looked at as an EIS rather than EA, as

           17   we have already proposed.

           18              They also expressed in general that they

           19   would rather see this area  -- that is now

           20   being considered for wilderness, they would rather

           21   continue looking at this area for wilderness.  It's a

           22   relatively -- very little disturbance has occurred in

           23   this area except for the existing exploration that has

           24   happened over a decade or two in the past.

           25              And that was -- we also got some specific
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            1   comments from individuals.  Maybe around a dozen

            2   individual comments that took the time to write more

            3   details along those lines.  I don't think there was

            4   any letters that I remember seeing that were in

            5   support of it.

            6                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  How do you count these

            7   obviously generated letters?  Do you count them each

            8   as an individual, or do you say these are one comment?

            9   OR do you put more weight on it as a generated or an

           10   individual letter does?

           11                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  No, we don't put more

           12   weight on it because there is a volume of letters that

           13   we got.  Generally we look at the comments that we

           14   have received.  We break them up into certain

           15   categories and say okay, umpteen letters we got asked

           16   about -- asked about or commented on the need to do

           17   this as an EIS.  So pretty much all of them did.  So

           18   to me, if we were addressing it further, it would be

           19   that a lot of people prefer that it be an EIS.  So I'm

           20   not going to say such and such said this should be an

           21   EIS.  Such and such said this should be an EIS.

           22                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  The reason I ask,

           23   Hector, is because I suspect that when you have a

           24   large volume like this, they are obviously solicited

           25   and generated and so on and so forth.  The question I
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            1   have and what disturbed me I guess is that if you

            2   believe in the opposite point of view, do you have an

            3   advantage with your office in trying to generate 6,000

            4   letters on a letter generator, even though the source

            5   is presumably the same?

            6                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  I can't say.  It's one

            7   way of the public offering their comments, and really,

            8   it's difficult for me to say one way or the other is

            9   better.  But I know that if we get one letter that

           10   says we support this project, you are also going to

           11   recognize that one letter.

           12                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  The reason I say that

           13   is participating in the public process --

           14                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  I think Alan may have

           15   something to say.

           16                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  -- I avoid that sort

           17   of the thing.

           18                 MR. STEIN:  Ron, Meg has heard my speech

           19   before.

           20              There are two categories of comments.  One

           21   is a substantive comment and the other is a vote on

           22   the project.  And we are not really looking at

           23   tallying votes and saying okay, there are so many

           24   votes for and against.  We are going to go for the

           25   votes for because they got a lot more.  That's not the
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            1   way we make public land management decisions.

            2              We make them based on that input and other

            3   factors.  So it's the substantive comments that raise

            4   issues and provide valuable information that really

            5   result in the value of the input.  The number of

            6   comments that we have for or against are just a small

            7   part of what we take into account.

            8                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Because sometimes it

            9   disturbs me when I see a decision made, and one of the

           10   rationale is that we received 10,000 comments from the

           11   public on this, knowing they were generated from

           12   someplace.  And I'm saying, does the other side really

           13   want to bog down the BLM with the faxes and the stuff

           14   if there is an advantage.  That was my point.

           15                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  Do you have a question

           16   on the same subject?

           17                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  I have a comment.

           18                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  Why don't you go ahead

           19   and ask it.

           20                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  My comment -- I don't

           21   know anything about this project.  However, I know

           22   quite a bit about mining and exploration.  And

           23   exploring is not the same as developing a mining

           24   prospect.  It's simply one of the preliminary

           25   activities that is required before you can make a
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            1   decision that costs millions of dollars of investment

            2   and provides in return raw materials that we all need

            3   to continue our society.

            4              And in California, which has the most

            5   rigorous regulations regarding mining on earth, we

            6   know that projects that do successfully go through

            7   based on economics and regulatory approval, community

            8   consent, are going to be developed with environmental

            9   considerations.  But there is always going to be a

           10   trade-off.  Now, as far as the BLM making a decision

           11   regarding approving reclamation for -- not an EIS for

           12   a mining project, but an exploration approval, maybe,

           13   process which impacts the land a lot less.  Now there

           14   are a lot of people -- and I would like to remind our

           15   DAC members as well as members of the public who don't

           16   know this -- to categorically categorize or classify

           17   land as wilderness without some kind of -- maybe a lot

           18   of knowledge about what kind of mineral resources that

           19   land hosts for community use now or in the future is

           20   folly.  So it's incumbent on our society and maybe our

           21   DAC here to advise BLM who is managing these lands to

           22   make sure that they know what's there before we start

           23   classifying areas of wilderness.

           24              I can tell you from personal experience

           25   there are a lot of places out there that have been
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            1   classified as wilderness that have very high potential

            2   to provide mineral resources for society.  So I think

            3   that when we make decisions based on public input from

            4   people who obviously don't want mining anywhere, any

            5   time, we need to consider those.  And I think our BLM

            6   management does consider those things.

            7              I just want to remind people that the only

            8   way to know what is there is to look, and the only way

            9   to look is to do some drilling.  That's it.  It's not

           10   a reflection on you.  I think the BLM really does a

           11   pretty good job of managing those things.  But we need

           12   to be careful about what kind of input we get from

           13   people who don't want mining anywhere.

           14                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  You are up.

           15                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  I have two questions,

           16   Hector.  Under the Recreation and Wilderness

           17   Maintenance Programs, how successful would you say and

           18   what is your success rate in these different rehab

           19   project restoration projects and all that on the

           20   desert?

           21                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  We have been doing some

           22   monitoring of the restoration efforts that we have

           23   been doing throughout some of our areas.  And it's

           24   getting pretty high percentages.  In some cases, it's

           25   getting up to 90 percent.  And in other cases it's
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            1   about 70 percent.  When we do restoration in an area,

            2   70 percent of the time it's going to remain and stay

            3   restored, up to 90 percent.

            4              It seems like there is a little bit of a

            5   correlation with the distance of the rehab to the more

            6   heavily used areas.  So we seem to be finding that the

            7   closer the rehab is to, say, an open area, the higher

            8   the percentage of impact to that restored area may

            9   result in that area.  So we are trying to get a

           10   handle.

           11              Monitoring also helps us identify what we

           12   call hot spots.  In other words, an area that we go in

           13   and do restoration and for some reason it gets blown

           14   out again, and so we go back and try and readdress it

           15   and see what else can we do to kind of figure out how

           16   to remediate the site.  Some areas, for example, we

           17   don't even do rehab.  We just put up a sign, a closed

           18   sign or a barricade of some sort.  And it stays good

           19   for a long time.  It depends on how much in the back

           20   country it is.

           21                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  Where are you

           22   concentrating?  In the back country?

           23                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  No, we are trying to

           24   concentrate on the heavily used areas because we

           25   have --
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            1                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  But your success rate

            2   is not as good as you would like?

            3                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  I will say one thing.

            4   It's hard for us to use taxpayers money because

            5   basically we are using a lot of gas tax and

            6   Greensticker money in the form of grants to put into

            7   the ground.  So I will give you an example.  I think

            8   in the Rands area we put something like 2.5 million

            9   dollars worth of restoration work in that area.  That

           10   includes signing, maintenance, restoration, fencing,

           11   and that sort of thing.  And in one busy weekend, I

           12   expected Thanksgiving weekend we might have several

           13   tens of thousands of people recreating in the area.

           14   If just 100 people don't pay attention to our efforts

           15   out there, they can cause an awful lot of damage and

           16   that means your investment out there on the ground is

           17   being impacted.

           18                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  You also mentioned that

           19   you maintain 300 miles of roads and trails.

           20                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  Uh-huh.  Approximately.

           21                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  It seems like when you

           22   get through with that, do you start back again?

           23                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  Actually, some of the

           24   volunteers, like Ed here, helps maintains.

           25                 MR. WALDHEIM:  The closer we are on the
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            1   open areas, we almost have to do them on a monthly

            2   basis.  The further we go to Coso Valley and the areas

            3   of less population, we can get away with them, maybe

            4   twice a year.  And then the weather is a big thing.

            5   On the single track trails when the rain comes, it

            6   does a bad -- does erosion on it, we go right back in

            7   and fix it.

            8              This year we have had the most active trail

            9   maintenance in the Jawbone Dove Springs then we have

           10   ever had.  And we also do the closing of the trail

           11   with the agreement of the Rudnick family.  Any trail

           12   that is not part of the map, we close it, we put a

           13   sign up, we get it out of the system.  So as soon as

           14   it happens, we are right on it and we take it out.

           15              That's in coordination with the BLM.  And

           16   also in the Rands as we speak we have a grader working

           17   on SB-40 and SB-50, SB-60, so we are actively working

           18   with the Bureau of Land Management on those designated

           19   routes only areas to make sure we control it and

           20   manage it properly.  That's our commitment for Friends

           21   of Jawbones and Hector.

           22                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  It's not Rudnick family

           23   anymore.  The ranch is sold, and it's now Renewable

           24   Resources Group.

           25                 MR. WALDHEIM:  So we will have to get
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            1   together with the Renewable Resources Group.

            2                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  But there are places

            3   that -- and I'm sure Keith Axleson has brought to your

            4   meetings places like Butterbredt Peak.

            5                 MR. WALDHEIM:  Keith is part of our

            6   team.  He helps us working on it.  So he is definitely

            7   part of our team, Friends of Jawbone.

            8              The one thing that I want to make sure,

            9   when you say 2 million dollars for restoration, we

           10   have to take into consideration we are talking about

           11   the Rand Mountain area, the arsenic area.  That's

           12   where the majority of the gobble of the money went.

           13   Trust me, Friends of Jawbone have not gotten 2 million

           14   dollars.  We work on RTP grants, recreational trail

           15   grants, which is what we have been surviving on for

           16   the last two years and the sales of the books in the

           17   Jawbone station.  That's how we have been able to do

           18   tractor work and maintenance stuff.  The big money was

           19   for the arsenic.

           20                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  How much money would

           21   you need to maintain the trails in that area?

           22                 MR. WALDHEIM:  We plan on putting in

           23   this year at least $300,000 for a tractor and worker

           24   for the gas and the wages in each area; $300,000 for

           25   Jawbones, $300,000 for the Rands area.  What you have
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            1   left over you can go to the El Pasoes and go to the

            2   other side of 395.

            3              For us to do the trial the way it's

            4   supposed to be done -- right now the Ridgecrest office

            5   has the best maintained trails and I will put them

            6   against any field office in the whole state of

            7   California because we are actively managing those

            8   trails.  So you have about 300,000, 600,000 for the

            9   two of them.  But understand, you have close to 5, 600

           10   miles of trails out there to do.  So it's going to

           11   take that kind of money to get the job done so the

           12   public has an enjoyable recreational opportunity and

           13   the resources get protected.  You maintain a trail

           14   system, they will stay on that trail.  They are not

           15   going to get off the trail.  Trust me, we have gone

           16   through that way and we have proven 100 percent they

           17   will stay on the trail.

           18                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  It's not 100 percent --

           19   you know that -- that they stay on the trail.

           20                 MR. WALDHEIM:  You are correct.

           21                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  Like I said, it's a

           22   small percentage, over tens of thousands of people,

           23   that use these areas.  A small percentage can make a

           24   problem for us, and it could be 100 people.

           25                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  I understand that.  But
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            1   signing and directions -- people are lost and they

            2   don't understand where they are.  They know they need

            3   to go back over a certain mountain, certain direction.

            4   If they don't have a sign telling them the correct way

            5   to go, they tend to go on any trail they may find or

            6   make one.

            7                 MR. WALDHEIM:  That is the educational

            8   process.  We were out 140 miles checking the trails.

            9   I was appalled at the people that I would catch off

           10   the trail.  If I were a sheriff, I could have issued a

           11   whole bunch of tickets.  They don't know any better.

           12   There is a new crop of people coming into the BLM

           13   lands and the Forest Service that have no clue what is

           14   going on.  That is why the education program is

           15   probably the most important, and law enforcement.  Law

           16   enforcement is key.  Between the Kern County Sheriffs

           17   and the law enforcement is key for us to make sure we

           18   are out there and we have a presence.  You don't obey

           19   the law, you get a ticket.  End of discussion.

           20                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  I can't agree with you

           21   more, education and enforcement.

           22                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  May I clarify a little

           23   bit more?  Some of our trails -- and I know Ron has

           24   had an issue with us on these things before -- some of

           25   our trails are not the more heavily used trails.  They
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            1   are the ones similar to the ones that we were on

            2   yesterday out there going towards Surprise, going up

            3   the Panamints, going to Saline Valley.  And those

            4   trails we don't pay a whole lot of attention to

            5   because most of our efforts are going into the area

            6   where we have tens of thousands of people, not 100

            7   people going in during the year.  So we use our

            8   resources as best we can, the limited resources as

            9   best we can in areas that we know we have to deal with

           10   compliance issues as we do.

           11              And in other areas they don't want us to

           12   touch their trails.  If we put a blade down in some

           13   places, I will hear about it the next day.  They say,

           14   Hey, I like to drive my Jeeps the way they are

           15   designed to be driven, and I don't want a nice smooth

           16   road to ride on.  So we will take that into

           17   consideration too.  Although we haven't touched some

           18   trails in the El Pasoes for years now.  And we have to

           19   start kind of taking that into consideration.  There

           20   is a lot of the rainfall and they are rutted out and

           21   they are whoop-de-do, and we are going to see what we

           22   can do.

           23                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  I have one more quick

           24   question.  Change of directions a little bit.

           25              Under the grazing program, you mentioned
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            1   here that you have one permit that is up for

            2   relinquishment.  Under the relinquishment, are other

            3   operators, other ranchers in the area, are they given

            4   the opportunity to apply for that permit?

            5                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  That's a process that

            6   we are starting to look at from a new perspective

            7   because we haven't done too many relinquishments.  The

            8   allotment that we are talking about right now is the

            9   Pilot Knob allotment.  The Pilot Knob has had -- that

           10   was acquired through the Desert Tortoise Preserve

           11   Committee.  So they are willing to put that one to

           12   rest.  I think that was also addressed in our land use

           13   management plan as one of those that we were going to

           14   relinquish in desert tortoise habitat.  So.

           15              In that area, public input was already

           16   considered at that situation.  We did have, I

           17   remember, a long time ago another operator that said,

           18   well, can I take a look at that in the future?  And we

           19   said, hey, we are going to look at it through our land

           20   use management plan, either WEMO or NEMO.  And

           21   basically that was a decision made through the plan

           22   process to relinquish that one.  There are others in

           23   the future, and there is one allotment in the Eastern

           24   Sierras that we are looking at the possibility of

           25   doing that too.
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            1                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  I would hope that in

            2   your process of relinquishment, when one operator

            3   decides to give up on a permit, that you would allow

            4   other operators in the area to be able to take that

            5   permit over.

            6                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  I think there is some

            7   regulatory requirements.  If we do that, we do it

            8   through a public review process.  And that might be an

            9   opportunity where that question is looked at or issue

           10   is brought up.

           11                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Thank you, Hector.

           12   With that we are going to adjourn for lunch and return

           13   here at 1:15.

           14                 (Lunch recess taken from 12:07 p.m.

           15                  to 1:19 p.m.)

           16                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Are there any members

           17   that have any more questions for any of the field

           18   offices?

           19                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  I have one question.

           20                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Okay.  Which office?

           21                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  For Hector.

           22                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Just when you

           23   thought it was safe to get back in the water.

           24                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  I talked to you about

           25   this.  Darwin.  All right.  I notice that -- who did
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            1   the studies for the Darwin studies?  Who took the

            2   samples?

            3                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  The samples were

            4   collected by BLM with the assistance of the Sacramento

            5   state office.

            6                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  State BLM people.

            7                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  Yes.

            8                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  I would like to comment

            9   for the record because people aren't aware that Darwin

           10   is a known and long-lived lead/zinc mining area which

           11   was essentially hydrated in the past and still has

           12   resources which in this economy are probably not

           13   economic.  So right now it's a resource.  So it would

           14   not be unexpected to see such high bpm levels since

           15   it's a known lead/zinc mine area.

           16              There is going to be some future studies on

           17   this to look at the hazards, especially for the casual

           18   user?

           19                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  Yes.

           20                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Do you know when these

           21   will be scheduled?

           22                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  Don't know.

           23                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Who will fund them?

           24                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  BLM.  I'm not sure what

           25   the status is of that site as a surplus site or
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            1   potential surplus site.  Funding could come by way of

            2   our central Hazmat funding.

            3                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Now, should that

            4   happen -- well, should these studies come out, will

            5   that preclude any future development of that site as

            6   de facto or legitimate mining area?

            7                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  I don't believe so.  A

            8   lot of the area that is where the potential for future

            9   mining exists, a lot of that's already patented.

           10                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Right.

           11                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  The area that we are

           12   probably more concerned about is the old tailings that

           13   are positive out there.  And for the most part I know

           14   that they've been continued pretty much in the areas

           15   where the tailings have gone on downstream or down the

           16   washes.

           17                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  So they have encroached

           18   in the public area?

           19                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  Yes, but like I said,

           20   the patented mining land is probably the area that has

           21   the most concern for future mining, and that will be

           22   on private property, basically.

           23                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  My concern would be

           24   that if a legitimate operator came in with a proposal

           25   or even for further exploration of the site, I'm sure
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            1   that they would be required to do additional cleanup

            2   and things like that, but you don't want the cost of

            3   the cleanup to preclude looking at the site as a

            4   viable resource.

            5                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  We have those kinds of

            6   proposals already on some other areas that we are

            7   contemplating cleanups.

            8                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  It's important for the

            9   public to understand that much of this kind of

           10   background level of metals especially is endemic to

           11   the formation of these deposits.  So you would expect

           12   things like arsenic background levels in commonly

           13   known gold producing areas.  It's one of the

           14   signatures and it's part of the hydro systems.  It's

           15   just part of the natural system.  Thanks.

           16                 MR. VILLALOBOS:  Uh-huh.

           17                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Any further questions

           18   for Hector?  It looks like you are off the hook.  Any

           19   other field office?  Seeing none, we will move on to

           20   current status of aggregate mining.

           21                 MEMBER ACUNA:  I was just looking at the

           22   calendar here, and it looks like we are running

           23   roughly about an hour behind.  And I was wondering,

           24   would it be okay with the DAC if we tried to figure out

           25   the way to streamline the meetings maybe in terms of
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            1   comments, maybe save the comments for the public at

            2   the end.  Is that something that we might want to

            3   consider just to get ourselves back on schedule?

            4                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I would second that.

            5   Save public comment for the end where it says public

            6   comment to 2:45.  Yes.

            7                 MEMBER ACUNA:  So that's my motion.

            8                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Second.

            9                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Motion and second.  All

           10   in favor.  Aye.  Opposed?  (Voice vote taken.)  Motion

           11   carries.  All right.

           12              Back to the item, the current status of

           13   aggregate mining in the CDD.  Who has that?

           14                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Rob Waiwood.  I'm the

           15   district office mineral program head lead for minerals

           16   in the California Desert District area.  It includes

           17   the conservation area as well as what we call the non-

           18   CDCA or the old metro area, Orange, L.A., San Diego.

           19              Real quick to give a refresher, I want to

           20   thank the public and the Council for having me give

           21   you the presentation.  I will try to go through it

           22   quick because I've been through with court reporters

           23   four times this year, and I know how expensive they

           24   can be.

           25              Anyhow, we have three disposal categories
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            1   for mineral resources on public land.  The General

            2   Mining Law of 1872, coalescent of the 1866 and 1870

            3   Acts.  In 1920 they withdrew certain minerals of

            4   common occurrence, leasable minerals that we dispose

            5   of by lease:  coal, oil and gas.  In 1970 they lumped

            6   geothermal into that category and solid sodium

            7   potassium, phosphate and so forth.

            8              The stepchild of all those is the Mineral

            9   Material Program, construction aggregates, industrial

           10   materials, and what we consider mineral materials for

           11   the most part.  These are materials of extremely

           12   common occurrence.  And generally of high bulk volume,

           13   low bulk value.  Okay.  You can probably run through

           14   these real quick.

           15              To give you a little statistic about

           16   aggregates in the US or just generally, it's from the

           17   National Stone and Center Gravel Association.

           18   Aggregates, including sand and gravel primarily and

           19   crushed rock, which are evenly distributed, represent

           20   half of all solid mineral production in the United

           21   States, and that includes coal.  Again, it uses about

           22   38,000 tons per four-lane highway.

           23              During the past 60 years, production area

           24   has more than quadrupled, looking at it in terms of

           25   3.5 tons per person per year, to over 10 tons, mostly
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            1   because of the required infrastructure associated with

            2   it.  General figures, about 5 million tons for the

            3   International Airport at Denver, and 17 million tons

            4   for Grand Coulee.  Public works projects really pull

            5   in a huge amount of tonnage of these resources.  And

            6   again, a small six-room house, about 400 tons of

            7   aggregates.  And 15,000 tons for a general public

            8   works, school or hospital.

            9              Nationwide, we produce about 1.3 billion

           10   tons of aggregate valued at about 8 billion dollars.

           11   Complementary to that, we produced about 1.7 billion

           12   tons of crushed rock, which is usually complementary

           13   aggregate products valued at about 14 billion dollars.

           14              Coal, we only produced about 1.8 billion

           15   tons, although its value is by far much greater.  But

           16   in terms of tonnage, between sand and gravel and

           17   crushed rock, that represents two-thirds of production

           18   of hard minerals in the United States.  And naturally,

           19   because of the economy, we have seen a 16 to 30

           20   percent reduction depending on where you're at.  We

           21   have about 6300 operations.  These are operations,

           22   mining resources of greater than 25,000 tons per

           23   deposit.

           24              California is the leading aggregate

           25   producer in the United States.  Again, 46 percent of
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            1   that going in concrete aggregates and the remaining

            2   distributed mostly into road and construction fill.

            3              Again, the distribution is -- if you look

            4   real closely at this, most aggregate products are

            5   transportation dependent.  You are going to see all

            6   these deposits being mined at or near major

            7   transportation resources.

            8              California sand and gravel production,

            9   Division of Mines and Geology, which track these

           10   things under the State Mining Act, about 190 million

           11   tons valued at about 2 billion dollars.  And about 231

           12   million last year.  So about 16 percent decrease.  We

           13   have about 912 operations in California active as of

           14   2007.  About 128 of those are in the California Desert

           15   District area, of which only about 36 are on public

           16   lands.

           17              Just giving a brief history of how these

           18   are disposed on public lands under the 1947 Materials

           19   Act.  What it basically said, Secretary of Interior

           20   and at this time only the Secretary of Interior can

           21   dispose of what we consider common variety --

           22   sandstone, gravel, pumice, pumicite -- from public

           23   lands.  It also allowed us to sell certain vegetative

           24   material, of which we lump into this category.  The

           25   key requirement of the '47 Act is that it had to be in
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            1   the public interest, could not be prohibited by other

            2   laws, and had to be sold at fair market value.

            3              Again, in the Act itself, we have to go

            4   competitive unless there is no competitive interest.

            5   Whether we sell one ton or 10 million tons, we have to

            6   identify whether or not it has competitive interest.

            7   We also issue free use.  And that's actually where a

            8   lot of our material in terms of tonnage or cubic yards

            9   goes is into public works project.  State -- County

           10   highway departments, County public works, certain

           11   government organizations, certain nonprofit

           12   organizations can get free use of mineral materials

           13   from public lands.  And we issue those in 10-year

           14   contracts.  There is no upper limit except for

           15   nongovernment organizations, which is limited to

           16   25,000 tons.

           17              Free use also falls within another category

           18   of the hobby collecting of petrified wood, which was

           19   specifically mentioned in this Act, as well.  Again,

           20   where it's impractical to obtain competitive interest,

           21   we can go noncompetitive.

           22              I put in mining claims on this Surface Use

           23   Act because a lot of the aggregate development in

           24   California as well as oil and gas development was

           25   under mining claims originally.  Most of our cinder
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            1   operations in the desert and some of our pumice

            2   operations and landscape crushed rock are still under

            3   mining claims located prior to 1955.  As a matter of

            4   fact, one of our largest operations in Imperial County

            5   was under mining claims in 1948 and '53.

            6              So basically what it says in the 1955

            7   amendment to that act related to mineral materials.

            8   And again, the big issue is no deposit of common

            9   varieties.  When Congress puts in what we consider

           10   weasel words like "common," requires us to consider

           11   what is "uncommon."  This becomes a problem because we

           12   can have claimants go out and claim an aggregate

           13   deposit that has a unique depositional environment,

           14   lowers the cost of processing, that is no longer a

           15   common variety, even though it's a common aggregate.

           16   Nonetheless, we do have mining law issues associated

           17   with aggregate development on public lands.

           18              Block pumice, that was taken out -- if all

           19   of you come up to Lee Vining up 395, up on the

           20   right-hand side is U.S. Pumice.  Because their material

           21   is greater than two inches, it's considered block

           22   pumice; that's a locatable mineral.  If it's smaller

           23   than two inches, its a common variety mineral, subject

           24   to sale by the Bureau.  We sell pumice; we have block

           25   pumice under mining claim.
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            1              Petrified wood or any agatized, opalized

            2   material, collect free use.  This kind of conflicts

            3   with our regulations under 8365, which is general

            4   category for hobby collection of noncommercial rocks

            5   and minerals on public lands without need for permit.

            6   Commercial operations for petrified wood you do need a

            7   permit or contract, but this does allow up to 250

            8   pounds per year and one piece.

            9              We issue contracts.  Unlike the Mineral

           10   Leasing Act and Leasing Or Mining Law, which those two

           11   acts create a property interest by defined legal

           12   description, contracts are issued by volume or

           13   tonnage.  Issue them in terms of cubic yards of tons.

           14   It depends on how we are going to determine product

           15   verification, either by survey or truck tally, one or

           16   the other.  We don't like to use too many conversion

           17   factors in some deposits because if we are looking at

           18   a lot of different commodities in there, it's very

           19   difficult to convert back from one to another.

           20              But nonetheless, we do have small sales

           21   where the field office will recognize the need for a

           22   local rancher or individual to look for small

           23   tonnages, small amounts, that we will set up what we

           24   call a community pit which is under what we call short

           25   form contracts.  These are contracts less than 2,000
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            1   dollars and generally don't last more than a couple

            2   months in terms of its use.

            3              Kind of a bad thing, but nonetheless, our

            4   process in the program is that we issue and renew

            5   contracts and free-use permits to state and local

            6   organizations.  We issue contract cancellations and

            7   extensions, we do a lot of those.  We appraise.  We

            8   have to because of the requirement for fair market

            9   value, we have to appraise every contract that we have

           10   for competitive offer or for negotiated over-the-

           11   counter contracts.  We establish community pits in

           12   common use areas.

           13              This is big in Nevada where Nevada and Las

           14   Vegas area produce over 8 million tons of material out

           15   of their community pits alone under longer term

           16   contracts annually.  They are the largest public land

           17   provider of aggregate materials in the United States.

           18   They have over 22 million tons of material under

           19   contract at any point in time.  By far much more than

           20   anywhere else.  We do pre and post inspections both

           21   for environmental and compliance, but also product

           22   verification.  We require some operators to have

           23   annual surveys done so we can run these things through

           24   our systems and determine whether or not materials

           25   have been taken in amounts authorized under those
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            1   contracts.

            2              We review mine reclamation plans and

            3   modifications.  We have coordination with most of the

            4   state lead agencies under State Mining Act so we don't

            5   duplicate these processes.  We determine or verify

            6   bond amounts; the obligation is on the operator.  One

            7   of our bigger programs that we had started in the late

            8   eighties or early nineties is unauthorized use.  We

            9   came down heavy on a number of major operators, so

           10   this isn't a major problem anymore in terms of large

           11   operations.  We ended up looking at four areas in

           12   which we had trespass damages in the amount of up to 4

           13   million tons of material taken, mostly on lands that

           14   are split estate where we only own the mineral estate.

           15              Again, we process those and maintain that

           16   entry and case tracking, which is very important

           17   because our budget is now based on how our units of

           18   progress -- our budgets come in based on the amount of

           19   work we do on the contracts we issue.

           20              Also, beginning in 2004, issuance of the

           21   work done on these contracts is a cost recovery

           22   program.  So the operator has to pay for all costs

           23   associated with issuing that application.

           24              The evaluation, coordination, review and

           25   oversight of all the programs within the district
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            1   itself.

            2              Permits and free use.  Again, we can issue

            3   these up to ten years.  There is no open-ended for

            4   government organizations.  Again, the free use of

            5   petrified wood, 250 pounds per year plus one piece, 25

            6   pounds per day.  Again, the noncommercial collection,

            7   personal collection of rocks and minerals on public

            8   lands are actually under the regulations of 8365.

            9              We conduct inspections.  We have to ensure

           10   that all removals have been authorized, quantities

           11   taken in compliance with the contract terms, the sites

           12   are properly maintained and reclaimed.  And that one

           13   of the problems of the big dump in a hole in the

           14   ground that isn't occupied, it ends up being landfills

           15   for anybody that doesn't want to pay tipping fees for

           16   landfills.

           17                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Do you know where that

           18   site is?  Do you recognize the site?

           19                 MR. WAIWOOD:  I should, I took it.  But

           20   I don't remember.

           21                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  You took a lot.  Maybe

           22   you will remember it later.

           23                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Yes, it's right over here,

           24   Vanderbilt.

           25              We do maintain this in our record system
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            1   both in terms of input of annual production, contract

            2   values, appraisal values, as well as collection

            3   billings system that links into that system so it can

            4   ensure that we are actually getting paid for what's

            5   being reported and produced.  And each operator has to

            6   have and submit a report by the 15th of every month

            7   for production that they have done that preceding

            8   period.

            9              California statistics from just public

           10   lands.  We are not a major player.  One of the

           11   problems with California is that we are transportation

           12   dependent, where we have what we consider the economic

           13   limit to haul.  Generally these are communities,

           14   cities, and that we are outside that boundary.  Mostly

           15   private land operations account for the 127 million

           16   tons that are produced of aggregate per year.  But by

           17   far most of what we sell here is sand and gravel.

           18              That's the distribution in California, in

           19   Southern California, and in the California Desert

           20   District.  You can see in the larger red dots are the

           21   federal contracts.  If you notice along all the

           22   highways, you will see pits.  These are Title 25 aid

           23   to highway rights-of-way.  The Caltrans has a special

           24   Memorandum of Understanding under the Highways Act

           25   with Department of Transportation that those sites are
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            1   actually on BLM managed under right-of-way, not under

            2   Materials Act contract.  It's a little different.  We

            3   actually don't manage those except to issue the right-

            4   of-way and approve right-of-way construction

            5   facilities.

            6              This is -- for planning purposes, BLM

            7   accepts and recognizes the State of California's

            8   productive consumptive region assessments and what

            9   they call their MRZ, mineral resource zone

           10   classifications.  We look at aggregates as a 50-year

           11   reserve base.  And these are the actual PC Regions,

           12   productive consumptive regions, the state has

           13   identified within the CDD, all mainly associated with

           14   population centers, again, transportation dependent.

           15              The only reason that I brought this one up

           16   is you can actually see the amount of the 50-year

           17   demand.  I'm not sure that's going to continue after

           18   September of this year's economic forecast, but

           19   nonetheless, the permitted amount is generally much

           20   less.  If you look at San Diego County, the amount of

           21   permitted material versus what is going to be needed

           22   represents only 17 percent of their demand.

           23              One of the interesting things about San

           24   Diego is they are sand deficient.  They produce a lot

           25   of crushed rock and what they called manufactured
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            1   sand, but they don't have enough sand for stucco and

            2   other purposes.  They actually have to import that

            3   from Imperial and Riverside counties.

            4              This is the distribution of authorizations.

            5   A lot of the our sales are short form in terms of

            6   numbers.  And we like that because Washington looks at

            7   numbers for budgeting.  These are short-form community

            8   pit sales.  We have a number of free use permits and a

            9   number of pending.  We have about half a million tons

           10   of pending permits in review at this point.

           11              Mineral material sales both competitive and

           12   noncompetitive, however, account for most of our

           13   tonnage.  And the one large one in Palm Springs is the

           14   now CEMEX or Transit Mix case which is a 56 million

           15   ton contract that's still waiting to be authorized.

           16   Well, we have authorized it.  We have a dual process

           17   in this state, so we are waiting for state

           18   authorization.  Nonetheless, that shows that in this

           19   particular case, we do have a lot of large-ton

           20   contracts.  We have about 2 and a half million tons

           21   under application under review at this time right now.

           22              In terms of our production units, this is

           23   both cubic yards and tons.  You can see that for the

           24   most part, we are seeing about one to one and a half

           25   million tons produced annually of construction
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            1   aggregates.

            2              And if you notice, the 2008 is a real big

            3   drop.  Some of our pit operations have dropped up to

            4   70 percent in terms of production, simply because

            5   housing in that area was so dependent on these

            6   particular sources that they are just not building

            7   anymore.  Again, you will see a spike in 1997.  That's

            8   a trespass that we resolved.  Actually, it was

            9   resolved much earlier; it's when they put it in the

           10   system.  We saw a steady increase in dollar value

           11   mainly because of the requirement we have to

           12   reappraise every one of these contracts every year.

           13   And this doesn't include the value of free use, which

           14   almost can double this amount of material.  We issue

           15   about a million tons a year in free-use

           16   authorizations.

           17              And looking at the distribution of

           18   production value by field office, Ridgecrest, Palm

           19   Springs and El Centro account for most of the

           20   production in the area because that's where most of

           21   the demand is.  Actually, Ridgecrest production is

           22   most of out of a specialty stone.  The Palm Springs

           23   and El Centro, mostly sand and gravel aggregate.

           24              We don't have much of Needles and Barstow

           25   mainly because of the availability of private land
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            1   pits or the lack of demand, Needles specifically.

            2   However, they do have considerable free use

            3   authorization.

            4              And again, looking at it in terms of just

            5   this year, this is where we are at in terms of

            6   production.  And in the background, one of our bigger

            7   issues is reclamation.  It's much easier in gravel

            8   pits than in any other mining we do.  We can restore

            9   these sites pretty well to meet the 25 percent density

           10   diversity requirements generally in three years.

           11              Okay.  And that's the end of that.  Just

           12   briefly in terms of budget, we take a hit every time

           13   budget allocations have been readjusted.  Typically

           14   the program was about a 400 to 450,000 dollar program

           15   being cut down to about 285,000 dollar per year.

           16   Again, mainly because a lot of this is cost recovery

           17   coming in from the operators and users.

           18              That's it.  Any questions?

           19                 MEMBER BANIS:  Out of Palmdale just

           20   south of us is Santa Clarita.  And there has been a

           21   hot bed of political issue regarding CEMEX, Mixed

           22   Transit, an operation in Soledad Canyon that's very

           23   close to the communities and where people are living

           24   in Santa Clarita.  The City of Santa Clarita did all

           25   it could to stop the production at that mine, and the
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            1   County of Los Angeles, as well.

            2              But then Congressman McKeon was called into

            3   play and he had -- he has worked very hard to

            4   negotiate a plan for Mixed Transit to be able to find

            5   their aggregate or replace that aggregate source of

            6   Soledad Canyon somewhere else.  But there is a -- you

            7   would think that he negotiated a great compromise.

            8   Sure, there is a source over here; you give up this

            9   one.  But everybody is happy.  But it has to go

           10   through Congress.  And it has to go through

           11   Congress -- if you could explain why.  It has to do

           12   with tax; right?  Are you familiar with that

           13   particular issue?

           14                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Tax?

           15                 MEMBER BANIS:  The reason why this has

           16   to go through Congress in order to allow Transit to

           17   switch their claim from Soledad Canyon to the

           18   Victorville area?

           19                 MR. WAIWOOD:  They don't have a claim

           20   but they do have a contract.

           21                 MEMBER BANIS:  The contract, excuse me,

           22   thank you.

           23                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Well, the only difference

           24   is because what the contract is.  It's a contract.  So

           25   until we mutually cancel the contract, which our
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            1   regulations allow, they can enforce that contract as a

            2   property interest.  Even though they have no right,

            3   title and interest to that property, they do have a

            4   right to an interest in 56 million tons of material.

            5   So in order for us to alleviate that particular

            6   situation, we have to provide them with 56 million

            7   tons elsewhere.  It's also allowed by our regulations.

            8   That's not an easy task.

            9                 MEMBER BANIS:  But this had to go to

           10   Ways and Means Committee in order for Ways and Means

           11   to waive some kind of taxes they would have had to pay

           12   on that swap.  The bill is languishing in Congress.

           13   I'm hoping I could get more details out of it so we

           14   could all learn more than just the skeletal bit that I

           15   know.

           16              But it was frustrating to me that there was

           17   I think a good solution worked out among all the

           18   parties involved.  And it now sits in Ways and Means

           19   and will die there at the end of this session, and who

           20   knows where it goes from there.  And that was

           21   disappointing that they couldn't work that out right

           22   here and now.  And now we have to wait for another

           23   session.

           24                 MR. WAIWOOD:  The situation is that if I

           25   issue a mineral material contract, it's not assessed
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            1   as property tax under state ad valorem until it's sold

            2   or exchanged.  And that became the issue.  They would

            3   have been assessed 28 million dollars if we had

            4   exchanged it for something else.  That's the issue.

            5                 MEMBER BANIS:  I see.

            6                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Because the state would

            7   have considered it real property at that point.  Right

            8   now it's just a contract.  And under ad valorem it's

            9   at value.  It doesn't have value until you are in

           10   production.  So they can hold this as a contract ad

           11   infinitum without having to pay royalty or pay

           12   property tax.  But if you exchanged it, it's real

           13   property.

           14                 MEMBER BANIS:  Thank you.  And I would

           15   like to thank Congressman McKeon's office.

           16                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  I have a question.  Is

           17   the sale price the same as it was when that contract

           18   was first negotiated?  And I think that was like 50

           19   cents a ton.  Is it still the same?

           20                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Yes.  Only because of the

           21   agreement we made.

           22                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  It might not be lower

           23   than market right today, but it would have been a year

           24   ago?

           25                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Yes, it would have been.
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            1   We are required to appraise at not less than two-year

            2   intervals.  The problem with this particular contract,

            3   it's by court settlement.  So a lot of things thrown

            4   into it that are not part of our regulatory process.

            5   Back to back 10-year contracts, for example.  That's

            6   why this is a 20-year project instead of 10-year

            7   project.  So when we appraised it -- or actually, they

            8   won it in a competitive offer back in 1990.  The

            9   agreement that we had with them is that we would not

           10   reappraise it for the next two years after production

           11   begins.  Well, we are still waiting.

           12                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Production never

           13   happened?

           14                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Exactly.

           15                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Can I just ask one

           16   more.

           17              Under what circumstances does a

           18   noncompetitive interest kick in?

           19                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Well, where we can find

           20   noncompetitive interest.  Let's say, for example, you

           21   come in Barstow and submit an application for

           22   material near Four Corners.  We will solicit -- if we

           23   find that in our planning -- that's never really been

           24   an area that we have had competitive interest -- we

           25   will go to companies and ask -- and we will actually
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            1   solicit and I have done this on a number of occasions as

            2   to whether or not they have interest in this area.  If

            3   any of them come in and they have competitive

            4   interests, we attach that as a competitive offer.  And

            5   we will proceed with it in that way.

            6              There are a number of mechanisms we can do

            7   in terms of clearing up the environmental issues,

            8   reclamation and mine claims and so forth so the burden

            9   isn't on the applicant but on the highest bidder.  But

           10   nonetheless, we are required by law to go competitive

           11   unless we can find a noncompetitive interest.

           12              Now, let's say we have a situation, which

           13   we do in Barstow, in which access prohibits anybody

           14   else but the existing operator to access material on

           15   the public lands.  That doesn't necessarily mean that

           16   there is no competitive interest.  We will still go

           17   with the competitive offer because we cannot as an

           18   agency say whether or not another bidder might be able

           19   to acquire access or not.  That will come in, and that

           20   will reconcile itself when we open the bids or have

           21   the oral auction.

           22                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  I can think of a

           23   situation where -- of course, the economy has changed

           24   everything, but I could think of a situation where

           25   sources, say, in the Inland Empire would become
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            1   depleted or close to depletion in ten years.  And the

            2   obvious place to move is to the high desert.  High

            3   desert has a lot of public lands that would be

            4   suitable for construction aggregate.  So a company

            5   comes in and it does all the due diligence, the

            6   testing, the whole thing, but that site which is on

            7   BLM land, would still go out to competitive bid.

            8   There is still no mechanism for recompensing a company

            9   for doing the preliminary due diligence?

           10                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Well, the regulations

           11   allow any individual to go out and dig a boring or put

           12   in a boring or a trench or whatever.  We have to

           13   acquire that data, but nonetheless, that goes into the

           14   competitive offer.  Now, whether we share that

           15   information or not really depends on how it's

           16   acquired.  Nonetheless, where we have more of a

           17   significant problem is where we have no real up-front

           18   competitive interest but we know that it exists.  So

           19   go ahead and we will offer and tell the operator to go

           20   ahead and prepare all the environmental documents, all

           21   the compliance, including maybe compensation for

           22   endangered species and any other mitigation, but in

           23   the bid announcement we will say that whoever wins it--

           24   picks up the winning bid-- is going to have to

           25   compensate the original applicant for all costs
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            1   associated with that.  So in essence, there is no net

            2   loss.

            3                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  All right.  Thank you.

            4                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Easier said than done.

            5                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I just have a couple

            6   questions.  First, if I wanted to go out and get a

            7   pickup full of sand for my own personal use at my

            8   place or a landscape boulder or two, what restrictions

            9   would apply to that?

           10                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Well, the 8365 regs -- we

           11   are the only one that has that; Forest Service doesn't

           12   and it's one of the main problems -- really pertains

           13   to hobby mineral collecting, meaning going out and

           14   picking up a rock.  To pick up a landscape boulder,

           15   that becomes somewhat problematic.  The problem is if

           16   8365 covered picking up a boulder on public land, does

           17   that mean that 19 million people in Southern

           18   California can do the same thing in the same spot.  We

           19   think not.

           20              In those particular cases where we see an

           21   interest or need for a boulder or two, we can direct

           22   you to one of our existing operations or existing

           23   community pit.  Or direct -- and if there is enough

           24   community interest or public interest, we can

           25   establish a pit for that purpose, community pit, so
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            1   that we can issue small contract sales.  We used to do

            2   that as a matter of routine.  Three to ten dollars per

            3   ton.  You would be surprised at how many tons you can

            4   pick up in your pickup.  But that's the way we would

            5   have to do it in that case.

            6                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  So I would have to

            7   apply for it.

            8                 MR. WAIWOOD:  You would have to let us

            9   know what you want, and we can try to accommodate you

           10   because you would be the only one that wanted that

           11   particular granite boulder.  And if we can't, we would

           12   have to direct you to an existing contractor to

           13   purchase a lot of them.  A lot might give them away

           14   because they become problematic in some of these

           15   sites.  If there is a lot of community interest in

           16   this, we can establish a community pit in which we

           17   would direct everybody in there under short-form

           18   sales.

           19              My personal opinion -- and I'm not a

           20   lawyer -- but we don't think the regs at 8365 pertain

           21   to that.  And the reason being was if you looked at

           22   the statement in the law where it says that where no

           23   other law allows this, you can do it under this law.

           24   Well, this is the law that allows that, the Materials

           25   Act.  And therefore, it must go that route because
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            1   FLPMA, no other law allowed for hobby collecting and

            2   mineral materials.  The 8365 portion of FLPMA is

            3   really out of Title III of the 8365 regs on general

            4   hobby collecting out of the FLPMA use and occupation

            5   section, not under the materials section.

            6                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  My second question

            7   is -- I'm a rock hound and I do go out and collect for

            8   lapidarian specialty and my personal use.  My question

            9   is, I see a lot of advertisement on the Internet for

           10   materials, specimens, and such as that and cutting

           11   material advertised for sale.  And I'm curious how the

           12   law applies to that activity.

           13                 MR. WAIWOOD:  It may be a mining law

           14   issue.  They may have collected that material under

           15   the mining law.  It may be an uncommon material.  If

           16   we see -- let's say -- nobody sells on the Internet

           17   small pieces of gravel -- but pumice, block pumice, if

           18   they collect it on public lands under the 8365

           19   provision, which is hobby and mineral collecting, and

           20   offer it on the Internet, well, it's a violation of

           21   the regulations.  But we are probably not going to go

           22   after it unless it's some major significant issue.

           23   Mainly because that conflicts with the two-inch

           24   elimination under the act, which then becomes a mining

           25   law matter.
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            1                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Because pumice is a

            2   salable mineral, whether it's a piece of agate --

            3                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Well, agate could be

            4   (unintelligible) under it also.  It's very difficult

            5   to look at what is common variety versus uncommon

            6   variety.  Generally when we get into those

            7   determinations, we are dealing with dimension stone or

            8   rock, which has a particular character, color,

            9   variance or vagarity that allows it to be outside the

           10   common variety and subject to sale.  For example,

           11   Ridgecrest sells Rand Schist or facing, very thin and

           12   so forth.  We sell it out of Bouquet Canyon, off the

           13   National Forest.  National Forest is allowed to sell

           14   material under Forest Act under the 55 Act.

           15              But in Arizona, it's under mining law

           16   because that particular material has a particular

           17   carry that warrants a higher value in the market.  So

           18   if they are getting 90 dollars per square yard for

           19   Bouquet Canyon and Rand material and getting 180

           20   dollars out of Arizona for their material, thiers is

           21   uncommon because it commands a much higher price than

           22   common material.  This is -- it takes us two weeks to

           23   teach our mineral examiners.  It's a real complex

           24   issue.  And that common variety weasel word -- if

           25   Congress had just said sand and gravel, that would be
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            1   pretty simple.

            2                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Thank you.

            3                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  No further questions?

            4                 MR. WAIWOOD:  Thank you.

            5                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  This brings us to -- a

            6   lot of people have been waiting for this one --

            7   Renewable Energy Program Update.

            8                 MR. MILLER:  My name is Greg Miller.

            9   I'm the renewable energy program manager for the CDD

           10   BLM.

           11              I'm just going to talk to you.  Some of you

           12   may have already seen portions of these slides

           13   already.  I apologize for the duplicates, but there

           14   is some additional information in some of these as

           15   well, so we have some update on this.

           16              What the BLM wants to do is establish a

           17   renewable energy development program on the CDD and by

           18   hopefully identifying some BLM-administered lands

           19   suitable for utility-scale renewable energy.  That's

           20   part of the Impact Statement being developed through

           21   the Washington office with the national -- with the

           22   Department of Energy.  They are helping us to develop

           23   a Programatic Environmental Impact Statement that may

           24   identify some lands, BLM-wide, suitable for utility-

           25   scaled solar or energy development for solar.
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            1              We want to consider the need for additional

            2   transmission corridors across BLM-administered lands,

            3   and there is a West Flight Energy Transmission

            4   Corridor Programatic EIS now, draft, I believe, so

            5   that's another thing we are looking at the same time.

            6   And potentially amend the BLM land-use plans in the six-

            7   state area for the solar development to address

            8   renewable energy development.  And that's what the EIS

            9   may look at, too, is maybe doing some amendments to

           10   land use plans.

           11              Current guidance and policy:  The Energy

           12   Act of 2005 which requires the BLM to have at least

           13   10,000 megawatts of renewable energy on public lands

           14   by 2015.  And that's non-hydro-related energy, so it's

           15   solar, wind, and geothermal.  Of course, Executive

           16   Order 13212 requires actions to expedite review of

           17   energy-related applications, and we are working our

           18   best to get that running.

           19              And of course, California Renewable Energy

           20   Portfolio Standard, we are trying to help California

           21   meet its goals of 20 percent of renewable energy by

           22   2010 and even 33 percent by 2020.  Currently 13

           23   percent of power is from renewable energy in

           24   California.  So the program -- there are several

           25   different things working at the same time.  The draft
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            1   West Side Energy Corridor, like I said.  Programatic

            2   EIS.  The Wind Energy Programatic EIS, which came out

            3   in June of 2005 somebody mentioned earlier about best

            4   management practices associated with that one.

            5              There is also the Solar Energy Programatic

            6   EIS due Fall of 2010.  That's the plan scheduled for

            7   the solar energy.  And then, of course, we have the

            8   Final Programatic EIS for Geothermal Leasing in

            9   Western US came out last month.  So all of these

           10   environmental impact statements, all of these new

           11   renewable energy program analyses are coming out all

           12   at almost the same time frame.

           13              Programatic for Energy Corridor, this is

           14   the West Side Corridor.  It covers those states,

           15   western states and gives you an idea of what corridors

           16   they are looking at.  Some of these may be amended,

           17   changed a little bit as it gets developed.  Southern

           18   California Desert, you can see a lot of those

           19   correspond with the California Desert Conservation

           20   Area, the corridors that were established in that.  In

           21   the transmission corridors, not just energy corridors,

           22   but right-of-way corridors for pipelines, transmission

           23   lines, all kinds of different linear type of permits

           24   that might go through.

           25              The Wind Energy Development Programatic
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            1   EIS, that's the final one.  This gives you an idea of

            2   what the medium high potential for wind energy is on

            3   BLM land across western states.  It shows that Wyoming

            4   is really windy.  If you have ever been there, you

            5   know that.  And in Southern California we have

            6   Tehachapi and out near Palm Springs by just the

            7   visibility of those windmills out there.

            8              And then, of course, there is a lot of wind

            9   off the coast.  Unfortunately, it's difficult to put

           10   windmills off the coast of California because the

           11   continental shelf drops off very quickly, so the

           12   supports for those windmills would have to be very

           13   deep.  They can do it off the Atlantic coast because

           14   it goes out for miles and miles.  But in the

           15   California coast, it goes off and drops off.  So if

           16   you get out to a spot where you can get a good wind

           17   away from any sort of visual impacts, it's too deep

           18   for them to put in windmills.

           19              Currently we have 69 wind energy

           20   applications on the Desert District, mostly for

           21   testing and that's putting up -- Richard, what are

           22   they called?  Anemometers.  Putting up met towers.

           23   Met towers -- we were having fun at lunch on that --

           24   for testing.  The met towers are on the left side.

           25   It's just a tower with guidelines that hold it up that
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            1   measures the velocity, direction, speed over the

            2   course of years.  And they usually do that for three

            3   years before they apply for another permit that puts

            4   in wind turbines -- that might put in wind turbines.

            5   Doesn't necessarily do it, but it might.  Ninety-three

            6   statewide.  So gives you an idea that two-thirds of

            7   the testing, two-thirds of the windmill or the wind

            8   testing projects or applications are on the CDD in

            9   Southern California.

           10              The green area, real light kind of

           11   fluorescent green is where our wind energy

           12   applications are right now.  Barstow, many around

           13   Barstow.  In and out I-40 up towards the Cosos there

           14   and out on the edge by China Lake.  There are some

           15   there.  So it gives you an idea where they are at.

           16   These are multiple acres looking at to try to put in

           17   wind towers, met towers to test.  So maybe down the

           18   line they will put in wind turbines.

           19              The Solar Programatic EIS covers six

           20   western states.  Approximately 200, total,

           21   applications in all the states right now, and probably

           22   more than 200 now.  In the CDD more applications are

           23   being filed.  Seventy-seven first-in-line solar energy

           24   applications, which means that they have the spot

           25   first.  There are 20 second-in-line solar applications
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            1   right now, which means that they have applied on top

            2   of an existing first-in-line, assuming that the

            3   first-in-line applicant will drop off or won't be able

            4   to pay for it or they will be rejected or something

            5   like that.  Their application is withdrawn, and they

            6   are next in line to be able to potentially develop on

            7   that site.

            8              Again, for California Desert District -- 78

            9   statewide solar applications, first-in-line, 77 on the

           10   Desert District.  That one is in Eagle Lake, and it

           11   sounds like it's not going to be there much longer.

           12   It sounds like they are going to drop it off.  So we

           13   will be down to all of them in the Desert District.

           14              And the reason why?  There are a couple

           15   technologies that are being proposed.  Concentrated

           16   solar power is one of them with the solar troughs and

           17   if you drive by Kramer Junction, those are the solar

           18   troughs right there.  They use a liquid, the sun

           19   reflects to the liquid, and the liquid heats up, heats

           20   up water, water turns to steam, steam pushes the

           21   turbines, turbines makes electricity.  How is that for

           22   quick, huh?

           23              The Stirling engine, upper left.  That's

           24   the new one that's coming out.  El Centro is going to

           25   have that luxury.  They are solar too.  That's one of
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            1   the newer technologies where hydrogen is being heated

            2   up in that little thing at the top of their little

            3   nose there, and using the mirrors to reflect the

            4   hydrogen, again hydrogen is heated up, the hydrogen

            5   makes steam or whatever.  That's a different

            6   technology I don't know yet.

            7              The concentrated solar towers, those are

            8   using heliostats.  That's going to be -- if you are

            9   familiar with the ISEGS project out near Primm,

           10   Nevada -- I-S-E-G-S.  The Ivanpah Solar Energy

           11   Generating System, ISEGS.  They are going to use

           12   heliostats to reflect the sun's light to the tower

           13   which uses molten salt; salt is heated up, heats up

           14   water, water steams, steam turns turbines, turbines

           15   generate electricity.  Pretty much from the different

           16   technologies, they are just heating up liquid to make

           17   steam to push a turbine.  That's just the different

           18   technologies.  Depends on what they are doing and

           19   where they are doing it, defines how many numbers of

           20   heliostats or how many numbers of Stirling engines

           21   they are going to use.

           22              The Ivanpah project is going to use 130,000

           23   heliostats with four towers.  The Solar Two project,

           24   30,000 solar engines.  And each one of those can

           25   produce like .75 megawatts.  Something like that.  It
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            1   takes more than that.  I think it takes 12 of them to

            2   make 1.5 megawatts.  So they are going to put 30,000

            3   of those out there so they are hoping for 400

            4   megawatts.

            5                 MR. HILLIER:  What is the scale of what

            6   we are looking at there?

            7                 MR. MILLER:  30 feet high; 40 feet wide,

            8   something like that:  30 by 40.  The panels are

            9   about -- the solar troughs, you have driven by them by

           10   Kramer Junction.  They are about 10 feet high and on

           11   their tilted access may be a little higher.  The power

           12   towers could be 400 feet tall.  So -- but with all

           13   those heliostats around them, it concentrate the solar

           14   energy to one spot on top and that runs the power out.

           15                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Clarification:  The

           16   panel itself is called a solar engine?

           17                 MR. MILLER:  That's what they are

           18   calling it, Stirling solar engine.  It's called the

           19   sun catcher.

           20                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  So when you talk

           21   about 30,000, you are talking about that device?

           22                 MR. MILLER:  30,000 of those devices.

           23                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  They are in dual

           24   arrays, so you are counting two as one?  How do you

           25   count?
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            1                 MR. MILLER:  No, no.  They're

            2   individually -- they are individual solar catchers,

            3   and they are individual units.  So 12 of those, 12 of

            4   those units right there, it looks like a satellite

            5   dish; right?

            6                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  You could put one of

            7   those at your house, stand-alone generator.  There is a

            8   generator at the end of each one of those shafts or

            9   towers.

           10                 MR. MILLER:  So this is the Stirling

           11   engine.  It's about 21 percent efficient, which means

           12   it's really efficient.  They tested this out -- tell

           13   me, where did they test this?  Sandia, New Mexico.

           14   They tested this out for like 20 years, so it's not a

           15   new technology as far as they are concerned.  They

           16   have been doing this for a long time.  This sun

           17   catcher here, all those mirrors will focus the energy

           18   of the sun inside this little Stirling engine.  That

           19   heats up their hydrogen, and then the hydrogen -- I

           20   think the engine itself pumps, makes electricity, and

           21   the electricity comes down into an array, and they

           22   push it into a transformer and it goes out to the

           23   transmission line at that point.  So that's kind of

           24   interesting.  Personally, I think it's a really cool

           25   technology.  I would like to see it happen.
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            1                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Push the little

            2   button.

            3                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  How much do those

            4   generate per unit?

            5                 MR. MILLER:  If you put 12 of them

            6   together, it's 1.5 megawatt for 12 units.  1.5

            7   megawatts.

            8                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  That's if the sun

            9   shines on them.

           10                 MR. MILLER:  Those will track the sun.

           11                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  But it doesn't make it

           12   at night?

           13                 MR. MILLER:  No.  So they are looking at

           14   different storage methods for night.

           15              So moving along.  So why Southern

           16   California?  Well, the red here is -- these are areas

           17   that have been excluded because military or something

           18   like that and wilderness.  But everybody else shows

           19   that Southern Nevada and Southern California and

           20   Western Arizona is the hot spot -- no pun intended --

           21   for solar energy for the solarity for concentrated

           22   solar power.  So that's why they are looking at so

           23   much in this area.  Arizona right now has -- I think

           24   in this area has been application for a 225,000-acre

           25   permit application for solar energy.  And they want to
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            1   develop the whole thing.  So there are some questions,

            2   how big is enough?  So we are talking to them right

            3   now.  Everybody is talking about that.

            4              The other thing we use is photovoltaic.

            5   Those are the panels -- this is actually photovoltaic

            6   that follows the sun and just soaks in the sun's

            7   energy and pulls it down just like a solar dish, just

            8   like the Stirling dish.  These have, of course, the

            9   chips for the modules that just -- instead of

           10   absorbing the heat, it absorbs the sun's rays and uses

           11   that -- I'm not familiar with that technology at all.

           12                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  The ones you

           13   pointed to are fixed, but the others move across?

           14                 MR. MILLER:  Those are definitely fixed.

           15   Those are flat.  And this is what we will see more of,

           16   the flat ones.

           17                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Is that because

           18   they are cheaper?

           19                 MR. MILLER:  Yes, cheaper and probably a

           20   little more efficient.

           21                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Are they more area

           22   intensive, obviously?

           23                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  It seems they will get

           24   dirtier being flat.

           25                 MR. MILLER:  Yes.  So again, the
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            1   solarity for photovoltaic, tilted photovoltaic, is

            2   very good in this area here.  And you have more in New

            3   Mexico there.  That's why there is such a "land rush"

            4   for solar power on California Desert District at this

            5   time.

            6                 MR. HILLIER:  Two questions.  One --

            7                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Gerry, no questions.

            8                 MR. HILLIER:  Okay.

            9                 MR. MILLER:  Sorry, Gerry.  So where are

           10   our solar applications?  All the red is solar

           11   applications.  We have a large concentration off I-10,

           12   large concentration over here in that Cadiz area.

           13   Here is the Ivanpah site.  There is another site above

           14   it, Opti Solar.  Stirling is here, El Centro.  So the

           15   two that are the furthest along is our Bright Source,

           16   Ivanpah.  That's the concentrated power towers, 400

           17   foot towers with the heliostats.  And our Solar 2

           18   Stirling engine site down here in El Centro right off

           19   of I-8.  Those are the two furthest along.

           20              Others are pending plans and development

           21   being developed.  And for us to accept those plans and

           22   development, they have to be decent enough to describe

           23   what the project is, where it's going to be, what

           24   impacts may occur.  A decent project description.  And

           25   then we can move forward to a Notice of Intent for
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            1   developing an EIS.

            2              The reason why we are going straight to an

            3   Environmental Impact Statement for this is because

            4   it's land use intensive.  The other thing, like I

            5   mentioned before, as far as land use plan amendments,

            6   the land use plans we have now do not have mention of

            7   management for renewable energy this intensive.

            8              So what we are doing is -- what happens

            9   with these solar energy projects is they pretty much

           10   eliminate all other uses because they fence the whole

           11   thing off.  So what we are doing for land use plans,

           12   because they are going from a multiple land use class,

           13   limited, to intense for that site.  So that amends the

           14   land use plan.  So we have to do an EIS and amendment

           15   for land use plan at the same time.

           16              So it's a process that's enormous.  And not

           17   to mention that with the concentrated solar power

           18   projects, those also do have to go through what's

           19   called the Energy Commission Process for an

           20   Application for Certification.  So we are trying to --

           21   the California Energy Commission and the BLM have

           22   developed a Memorandum of Understanding to merge our

           23   two processes together to try to come up with one

           24   environmental document that answers the questions and

           25   addresses the issues for that power project.
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            1              Photovoltaic, the California Energy

            2   Commission doesn't care -- I should say that.  Has no

            3   jurisdiction over photovoltaic, only concentrated

            4   solar power.  And of course, the first two projects

            5   out of the shoot, concentrated solar power.

            6              So geothermal.  I'm just learning.  I'm

            7   just getting up to speed on geothermal.  Here is the

            8   Final Programatic Environmental Impact Statement.  It

            9   came out October 2008.  Three volumes, it's pretty

           10   thick.  It's pretty good.  I haven't read it

           11   completely yet.  We have three, I believe, the Coso

           12   site here.  There is Truckhaven there.  Is that Truck

           13   Haven, Vicki?  Yes.  What is this one down here?  East

           14   Mesa.

           15              So we have three that we are looking at.

           16   There is another one that's being proposed pretty soon

           17   called West Coso, right off 395 right west of the

           18   China Lake Air Base there, Navy Air Weapons Station.

           19   That is being -- soon it will be developing a

           20   Programatic EIS for that area, for competitive leasing

           21   in this area as well.  That's down the line too.

           22              So BLM and renewable energy.  Of course,

           23   there are multiple use agencies responsible for the

           24   protection, use, and the appropriate development of

           25   public lands.  So we have to look at everything.
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            1   Renewable energy is both a national and state

            2   priority.  And if you paid any attention to the

            3   election debates and the political stuff that happened

            4   over the last year, you know that renewable energy is

            5   a high priority.

            6              Public land in California -- you saw the

            7   thermal and where we could -- the solarity for

            8   Southern California.  We have significant

            9   opportunities to contribute to the needs for RPS, the

           10   Renewable Portfolio Standard for California.  But it

           11   presents a significant challenge to the BLM because we

           12   are just learning about this.  This is something new

           13   that the BLM really hasn't had to do right-of-way

           14   permits.  And this is the right-of-way grant for these

           15   huge projects.

           16              By the way, we also have to pay attention

           17   to the California Desert Conservation Area which

           18   contains valuable resources.  And some of those like

           19   wilderness areas, ACECs, DWMAs, Desert Wildlife

           20   Management Areas are off limits to solar and wind.

           21   Wind is off limits to the ACECs and DWMAs.  But as

           22   Steve has mentioned before, the new IM coming up,

           23   Instructional Memorandum I believe it's called, is

           24   going to possibly redirect that so that based upon the

           25   objectives of the ACEC, it may be compatible.  A wind
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            1   development may be compatible on there.  We are still

            2   not certain about solar.  That's still being

            3   developed.

            4              Looking at the impacts on the desert, some

            5   of them are going to be substantial, changing

            6   landscapes.  So that's why each one of the solar

            7   projects are requiring an EIS.  Plus they are going to

            8   have to tier towards the Programatic EIS, which we are

            9   developing -- hopefully developing best management

           10   practices for.  They are going to have to upgrade

           11   nearby communities with upgrades to existing roads,

           12   transmission lines and infrastructure.

           13              Transmission is a huge dog in this fight

           14   that we haven't even touched yet.  Because what we are

           15   hearing from California Energy Commission is that you

           16   think about -- everybody is familiar with the Sunrise

           17   Power Link.  If you think about that power link, that

           18   500 kv line, in order for us to compensate for all the

           19   projects we are trying to get done in California, we

           20   need seven more of those across Southern California.

           21   That's what the Energy Commission is estimating, seven

           22   more of those 500 kv lines.  So how do you get power

           23   from A to B if you don't have lines there?  So that's

           24   huge.

           25                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  And it doesn't transmit
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            1   at night.

            2                 MR. MILLER:  Right.  Some of it doesn't.

            3   The wind does.

            4                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Only if it's blowing.

            5                 MR. MILLER:  So where are we going to

            6   allow these areas to be developed and what conditions

            7   is a huge challenge to BLM.  We were -- before the

            8   Programatic EIS came in, we were thrown all these

            9   applications.  We had 78 to 80 applications even

           10   before the Programatic EIS said stop.  And then we had

           11   to let more in because it was just one of those

           12   things.  We said okay.  We want to hold off until we

           13   get the PEIS done.  But what happened is that

           14   Washington said no, no, no.  We are going to go ahead

           15   and allow more applications to come in while we are

           16   developing PEIS.  California was already saturated.

           17   Nevada had half of what they do now.  So they have

           18   doubled since that injunction or moratorium was

           19   lifted.

           20              Of course, you need to recognize concerns

           21   about impacts to the desert's environment and other

           22   traditional uses of public lands including OHV

           23   recreation.  So we are looking at everything.  And the

           24   EIS, because it allows a 90-day public comment period

           25   because it's a land use plan amendment, that's a good
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            1   time to be able to -- and in these meetings and

            2   talking with Ed and talking with Meg, it's a good time

            3   to listen to whatever is going on out there.

            4              All right.  So if you want to write down

            5   real quick where these are at, I will leave it up for

            6   a minute.  But if you don't want to, I think you can

            7   get this somewhere.

            8                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  It will be in the

            9   minutes.

           10                 MR. MILLER:  I could e-mail.  This is

           11   slides.  Just the slide.  It shows you where to get

           12   the BLM info.  Where our renewable energy site is.

           13   Where the wind EIS is.  Where the corridor EIS is.

           14   Final geothermal and solar energy and who I am.  Oh,

           15   wait.  That's not me.  Steve Borchard.  That's not who

           16   I am.  That's all I have.

           17                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  On the concentrated

           18   solar power, how much water is used in the different

           19   type of processes?

           20                 MR. MILLER:  Good question.  We are

           21   finding it depends on the technology.  Some are using

           22   dry cooling, which they don't use water at all.  Some

           23   are using a lot of water, and we are not through the

           24   plans of development.  We haven't found equilibrium,

           25   happy medium anywhere.  I couldn't tell you the
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            1   numbers, but there are large numbers that say how many

            2   acre feet per year compared to maybe very little acre

            3   feet per year, depending on the dry cooling.  Now,

            4   Stirling -- can you help me out, Al?

            5                 MR. STEIN:  Either three or seven acre

            6   feet.

            7                 MR. MILLER:  For the whole project?

            8                 MR. STEIN:  Yes, and it's primarily for

            9   washing --

           10                 MR. MILLER:  They are using it to wash

           11   the mirrors.

           12                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  I hear just the other

           13   day that the one at Kramer Junction that still uses a

           14   million gallons of water a day.  I don't know how many

           15   acre feet that is, but a million gallons is a lot of

           16   water.

           17                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Excuse me.  That's

           18   exceeding.

           19                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  But it has a big

           20   cooling tower there.

           21                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  They cool the steam,

           22   but the net loss was a million gallons a day.

           23                 MR. MILLER:  I don't remember what they

           24   said.  I just toured that site three weeks ago.

           25                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  It seems to me that
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            1   some of those things should be considered and they

            2   have to be considered.

            3                 MR. MILLER:  Yes, and that's a huge

            4   issue that the public brought up in the scoping

            5   sessions for the PEIS.  Water is a huge issue because

            6   in the desert, there is very little water to be able

            7   to use for cooling or any other resource that you need

            8   out there.  So, yeah, I mean, for dry cooling would be

            9   maybe a technology that would maybe go through easier

           10   because it doesn't use water, rather than wet cooling.

           11   But we have to look at all technologies in order to

           12   figure out where we are going to go.

           13                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Can somebody get the

           14   lights back on?

           15                 MEMBER GUNN:  I've talked to Bright

           16   Source people.  And from what I understand, that

           17   technology that they are using with those power towers

           18   is experimental.  And the company that originally

           19   thought of this idea went bankrupt.  And now it's a

           20   new company.  And is any of this taken into

           21   consideration -- oh, and also, the environmental

           22   impact, someone said, well we should have a minimum

           23   environmental impact, if possible.  But when I talked

           24   to them, they said 95 percent of the land is

           25   bulldozed, so I don't know how you could have a
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            1   minimum environmental impact.

            2                 MR. MILLER:  No, it all depends on the

            3   technology.  As far as the power towers go, Daggett --

            4   there's a site out at Daggett that had a power tower

            5   for 20 years now.  So that's been using the same

            6   technology.  There might not be molten salt.  It might

            7   be a different liquid they are heating up.

            8                 MEMBER GUNN:  Right.  And what they are

            9   doing is they have a boiler on top of that tower where

           10   everything has to be directed towards that boiler.

           11                 MR. MILLER:  Same with the others.  It

           12   has to be directed toward the top of the tower.

           13                 MEMBER GUNN:  What I read was they are

           14   about 60 feet tall.

           15                 MR. MILLER:  Oh, yeah.  Definitely the

           16   Daggett tower is shorter than what is going to be at

           17   Ivanpah.

           18                 MEMBER GUNN:  I imagine you know more

           19   than I do about the molten salt, but I was told it was

           20   oil.

           21                 MR. MILLER:  From what I read, it's

           22   molten salt.

           23                 MR. MATTHEWS:  It could be either.

           24                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  One at a time.  We have

           25   to let our court reporter catch up.
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            1                 THE REPORTER:  If you want this down,

            2   one at a time.

            3                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  No more questions, but

            4   you can catch him after he is done.  How is that?

            5   Better be quick.

            6                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  I notice from your

            7   maps it looks like a lot of Native American lands are

            8   not part of this.  You may not know the answer.  Are

            9   these companies trying to also gain access to the

           10   tribal lands, or are they not interested, or how is

           11   that working out?

           12                 MR. MILLER:  I haven't heard of anybody

           13   trying to place a project or apply for a project on

           14   tribal lands at this time.  What we are looking at is

           15   just the BLM-administered lands.  There may be some --

           16   there may be some negotiations later for tribal lands

           17   for some of the companies, but I haven't heard of that

           18   yet.

           19                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  When you look at

           20   those four states, you have a tremendous amount of

           21   tribal lands.

           22                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  The tribal lands, they

           23   are going to ask an arm and leg.  If I had my own land

           24   and they came to me, I would negotiate some kind of

           25   arm and leg for them.  But am I to understand then
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            1   that the proposals that are being submitted right now

            2   do not have transmission facilities already planned as

            3   part of their proposal?

            4                 MR. MILLER:  No.  All of their proposals

            5   must have at least some sort of an idea, identifying

            6   where they are going to transmit their power from/to.

            7                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  But let's assume that

            8   the process goes forward and they get to a point where

            9   they have to -- where they are actually going to get a

           10   permit or you are thinking of issuing a permit.  At

           11   that time they would have to have transmission in

           12   place?

           13                 MR. MILLER:  They would have to have

           14   what's called a Systems Interconnect Study,

           15   interconnectability Study.  They would have to have

           16   that done.  And that's what the Cal-ISO, California

           17   Independent Systems Operators does.  They would also

           18   have to have power purchase agreements in place, and

           19   that's with the company that they are going to sell

           20   their power to.  They cannot have a grant for that

           21   project until they have those two things in place for

           22   sure.

           23                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  So that assumes that if

           24   the taxpayers allow them to go forward with whatever

           25   compensation they get, taxpayers are going to be
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            1   assured that this is going to be a viable project?

            2                 MR. MILLER:  Correct.  That's the other

            3   thing we are looking at too.  It's not just about

            4   environment.  It's not just about humans.  It's about

            5   whether they can -- actually this project is viable.

            6   Can they do it?  So right now California Independent

            7   Systems Operators are charging 250,000 dollars just to

            8   do the study.  Now, if they don't have control of the

            9   land, another 250,000 to get that.  None of these

           10   projects have control of the land because we haven't

           11   issued a grant to them.  So that's 500,000 dollars to

           12   start, just to get in the queue, just to be assured

           13   that they will get studied.  That's huge bucks for me.

           14   That's Steve's salary.

           15                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Steve, you are

           16   buying dinner tonight.

           17                 MR. MILLER:  That's just to get started.

           18   So what we are thinking and the BLM is thinking is

           19   that a lot of these companies who have thrown their

           20   hat into the ring are going to see this and say, Whoa,

           21   it costs too much for me.  I'm going to back out.  So

           22   we are looking at 78 applications or 77 applications

           23   on the CDD.  Who knows how many are going to go

           24   through, but it's probably unlikely that all of them

           25   are going to go through.  Any other questions from the
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            1   Council?

            2                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  That's it.  I think you

            3   are done.

            4                 MR. MILLER:  All right.  Thank you very

            5   much.

            6                 MEMBER BANIS:  Thank you.

            7               (Applause from the audience.)

            8                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  This brings us to

            9   Firewood and Off Highway Vehicle Noise issues.

           10                 MR. ALLEN:  Terry Allen.  I'm a law

           11   enforcement officer at the Ridgecrest office, and I

           12   was asked to speak about firewood and noise issues on

           13   public land.  And I can only speak for what is

           14   happening at the Ridgecrest field office.  I'm not

           15   privy to what is going on at the CDD.

           16              The firewood issue pertains to burning of

           17   pallets, and I understand at the Ridgecrest office we

           18   don't have a supplemental rule at this time where we

           19   can enforce that happening on public land.  I believe

           20   there is only one resource area in CDD and that would

           21   be the Barstow office that has that right now.

           22              We do use -- at the Ridgecrest office we

           23   use other laws under the CFR's to help curtail the

           24   burning of pallets.  And I know over the years I have

           25   seen less pallets out there, and I think that helps.
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            1   The trick was finding everybody in the area in the

            2   resource area or Jawbone or Dove Springs that are

            3   intending on burning them.

            4              What we do is we talk to them, we explain

            5   the problems with it.  A lot of times what I do is I

            6   tell them that if I come back and I find nails, we

            7   will cite them for littering.  And if you think you

            8   can get all the nails out from the fire pits, go

            9   ahead.

           10              We usually take pictures and I will write

           11   down license plates and it has been working.  And I

           12   have seen a lot less pallets.  We talked about doing

           13   it even more to get out there and make sure that

           14   everybody knows that we are aware of it and we will be

           15   watching.

           16              As far as the noise issues, I know -- I

           17   believe the law was passed in 2003, noise issues,

           18   sound issues on motorcycles and quads.  We have been

           19   doing courtesy checks for about five years that I know

           20   of.  We have three instruments in our office that we

           21   can check.  I believe we have four or three officers

           22   that are qualified to do the checks and one park

           23   ranger.  I know the last couple years what we have

           24   been doing, we have been doing Greensticker

           25   checkpoints where we check for Greenstickers.  And if
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            1   we have an officer available, we will do sound checks

            2   as well.

            3              And every year we have been stepping up our

            4   enforcement on it.  We have been getting more

            5   violations every year.  We've talked recently about

            6   doing that again this year at checkpoints, so

            7   hopefully we will probably get more violations.

            8              We have been basically doing an educational

            9   deal.  We have been trying to educate people about the

           10   sound issues, and it seems to be working.  But it's

           11   hard to enforce unless we do check points and stop

           12   people.  That's about all I have for those two

           13   questions.

           14                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  What is the db base

           15   line or what is the db that's acceptable?

           16                 MR. ALLEN:  It's 96 decibels for

           17   anything after 1986.  And it's 101 before 1986.  There

           18   is another decibel level.  It's the same decibel

           19   level, but it deals with the year -- it's the off-

           20   track motorcycle quads.  But it's 98.

           21                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  On that, can one

           22   get a special permit to exceed that.

           23                 MR. ALLEN:  Not that I know of, no.

           24                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  We have huge issues

           25   with pallets in El Centro.  Is it possible for you to
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            1   write down the CFR or what you are citing on and get

            2   that to the people in El Centro?

            3                 MR. ALLEN:  I was just there for

            4   Halloween and I did talk to that individual.  We use a

            5   littering law.  There are several of them that you can

            6   use.  The trick is to make sure that they see you

            7   write down the license plate or you take their

            8   identification.  And you write that down and you tell

            9   them you are going to come back and check.  I have

           10   come back and raked it.  And I have seen it's spotless

           11   and it's the cleanest pit I have ever seen.  So it

           12   does work.  Taking pictures helps a lot, too, if you

           13   take pictures of the pallets if it does go to court.

           14   You have to have all your ducks in a row.  But it's

           15   just basically a littering law.

           16                 MEMBER BANIS:  What makes the OHV so

           17   loud, the manufacturers or the after market?

           18                 MR. ALLEN:  Most of them have silencers,

           19   but some of them take them off.

           20                 MEMBER BANIS:  So it's users?

           21                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  When they come from

           22   the factory they have to be a certain db level.  It's

           23   20-inch test, it's a 50-inch that the DBA requires.

           24   So everything that comes out that has a Greensticker

           25   is 96 dba.  Most people, they modify it or take the
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            1   core out, and that's how it comes out.

            2                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I'm just curious, now

            3   that you bring this up.  Is this unique to BLM or is

            4   the Forest Service have the restrictions?  I know they

            5   can be very irritating when I'm out there.

            6                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I don't think they

            7   have their own --

            8                 MR. ALLEN:  It's a California state law.

            9                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  Then it would apply to

           10   Forest Service.

           11                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I know that Bill

           12   Dart is trying to work to get Forest Service to get

           13   their own regulations for that, I believe.

           14                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Am I to understand that

           15   they can burn pallets if they pull all the nails out?

           16                 MR. ALLEN:  They can burn the wood if

           17   they can pull all the nails out.  Then it's no longer

           18   a pallet.  It's just wood.

           19                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  But if they pull it out

           20   of the fire pit, then that's not illegal.  It's only

           21   after they burn it and leave stuff behind?

           22                 MR. ALLEN:  When they leave it behind,

           23   yeah.  I have asked people not to and explained why.

           24   And I have seen them hauling out their pallets at the

           25   end of the weekend.  It's a matter of contacting and
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            1   educating people.

            2                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  It's the residue that's

            3   important?

            4                 MR. ALLEN:  It's the nails left behind.

            5                 MEMBER GUNN:  Why is it or is it -- is

            6   that just the off-road group that burns pallets?  Why

            7   not bring firewood out?

            8                 MR. ALLEN:  I'm not going to say it's

            9   just the off-road group, but we see it mostly on the

           10   OHV areas.  A lot of them work at construction sites.

           11   I have talked to them.  You will see a lot of old

           12   construction wood from framing houses and whatnot.

           13   And I have actually said I would love that piece of

           14   lumber, but they are going to burn it.

           15                 MEMBER GUNN:  Just curious.

           16                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Any other questions?

           17   Thank you very much for your patience.  You took a

           18   long time to get here.

           19              Next we have Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation

           20   Area trash.  Who is talking trash?

           21                 MR. STEWARD:  I'm Daniel Steward, the

           22   resource branch chief in El Centro, and I'm going to

           23   talk to you all about the trash collection in Imperial

           24   Sand Dunes.

           25              As you are aware, Imperial Sand Dunes is an
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            1   extremely busy OHV recreation area; thus, we have lots

            2   of issues with garbage and trash.  We have done a lot

            3   of different things to try to manage trash, ranging

            4   from just the regular 33-gallon trash cans all the way

            5   up to the big 40-yard dumpsters.  Currently we are

            6   using little six-yard dumpsters, and everything has

            7   its own pros and cons.  As you can see here, those

            8   were the 40-yard dumpsters and we had a lot of trash

            9   piled on the ground after holiday weekends and stuff.

           10              A lot of this is because the old 40-yard

           11   dumpsters weren't ADA compliant.  It's hard to throw

           12   your trash up and over.  They weren't covered.  We had

           13   problems with people going through and digging out

           14   cans and things like that.  It was kind of a

           15   nightmare, and after every holiday weekend we had a

           16   couple days' labor from all of our park rangers out

           17   there to pick up this mess.

           18              So anyway, now with some of the economic

           19   conditions we are seeing and with the increase of fuel

           20   costs, increased inflation, things like that, we are

           21   going to be stopping our trash collection as of

           22   February 1st.

           23              You can see here we have the six-yard bins

           24   we are currently using.  And this helped clean up the

           25   dunes a great deal because now with the six-yard bins
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            1   we had multiple dumpings per day, and that increased

            2   our capacity and kept a lot of the trash off the

            3   ground.  But one of the problems with this is it's

            4   expensive.  Our cost is running about 400,000 dollars

            5   a year.  These were off contracts that were let about

            6   five years ago, so these prices were negotiated a few

            7   years back, so any subsequent contracts we are going

            8   to do are going to be much higher with the increases

            9   in fuel costs and inflation and stuff like that.

           10              And we have also seen some pretty

           11   significant drops in our fee revenues, decreases in

           12   visitation because it's really expensive to get out

           13   there with the RV and stuff right now because of fuel

           14   costs.  So the bottom line is we can't afford to keep

           15   paying the 400,000 dollars or more to keep the trash

           16   service and maintain the other levels of services that

           17   we need to provide out in the dunes.

           18              So we know that having the service like

           19   that for the public and then taking it away, this is a

           20   really risky thing for us.  And we don't want to have

           21   dunes trashed and we want to maintain all of the

           22   levels of service out there.  So we embarked on a

           23   major public outreach campaign, working with a lot of

           24   our partners, ASA, United Desert Gateway, Imperial

           25   County.  All these other groups have been really
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            1   instrumental in helping us get the word out to the

            2   public.  We have been focusing on how do you pack it

            3   in, pack it home.  So when you come back to the dunes,

            4   be prepared to bring your trash bags back home to

            5   dispose of through your municipal trash service.

            6              We worked with United Desert Gateway and

            7   ASA on developing the outreach plan.  This plan kind

            8   of outlined how we would get information out and kind

            9   of divide and conquer with our labor and efforts to

           10   try to reach as many people as possible.

           11              We have put together some brochures here --

           12   I have a few out front -- on the cost of trash.  It

           13   talks about some of the reasons behind why we are

           14   having to end our trash service, as well as some of

           15   the benefits behind relieving the trash service out

           16   there.  We have worked with United Desert Gateway on

           17   their annual publication.  And on page 6 of this

           18   little newspaper, we have a big flyer in there about

           19   the end of the trash service as well as signs next to

           20   all of our dumpster letting the public know as of

           21   February 1st the dumpsters will not be there.  We've

           22   done radio shows, talk shows.  The motor sports talk

           23   show in San Diego, one of our spokesmen went up there

           24   and did an interview with them and as much outreach as

           25   we can possibly do with some of the public meetings,
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            1   such as the Sand Force Super Show in Costa Mesa.

            2              We are still working with all of our

            3   partners and looking for more partners to try and keep

            4   the word going out.  And if any of you know of any Web

            5   sites or anything like that that we don't have this

            6   advertised on, let us know.  And we can get you

            7   information that we can try and get it out to as broad

            8   a market as possible.

            9              We are currently trying to work with some

           10   private landowners and private businesses out in the

           11   Imperial Sand Dunes to try and work out some more

           12   solutions to maybe getting some private trash

           13   collection or something like that.  It's in the early

           14   phases.

           15              One of the key components of trying to have

           16   success out of this is going to be enforcement.  And

           17   we are going to be out in force with law enforcement

           18   and park rangers contacting people and letting them

           19   know about the trash service and writing citations if

           20   folks are not complying.  So enforcement is going to

           21   be a very serious issue for us this year and in the

           22   future to try and make this program work.  We are

           23   really depending on our users to be responsible and

           24   help us out, and we are really hopeful.

           25              And there are a few benefits to this.  One
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            1   of the major things we are getting at is we are in

            2   pretty tough economic times impacting everyone.  And

            3   we want to maintain the safety of our users out there.

            4   We want to maintain a pleasurable experience, protect

            5   the environment.  And elimination of this trash

            6   service is all in an effort to allow us to balance our

            7   budget and still maintain the level of service that we

            8   have right now.  So thank you very much for your time.

            9                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Any questions?

           10                 MEMBER BANIS:  Just a stupid one.  I

           11   take it that the savings of 400,000 a year will result

           12   in lower fees for our users down there and greater

           13   access for the public?

           14                 MR. STEWARD:  We are hoping it's going

           15   to create an increase in fees.

           16                 MEMBER BANIS:  Just as long as I get my

           17   point in to lower the fees, better for the public.

           18                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  Can I make one quick

           19   comment?  In the Jawbone Dove Springs areas which is

           20   heavily used by off-road vehicles, has there ever been

           21   a trash --

           22                 MR. WALDHEIM:  The major holidays we put

           23   two dumpsters at the Jawbone station and two big

           24   dumpsters at C-94, the entrance.  Monday comes around,

           25   they get removed immediately.  Everything else is pack
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            1   it in and pack it out.

            2                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  My point is it's one of

            3   the cleaner areas I have seen.  They really do pack it

            4   out and on a consistent basis there is not the

            5   dumpsters there only on major weekends, but people

            6   take care of it.

            7                 MR. WALDHEIM:  Just on the holidays.

            8                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  People take care of it

            9   pretty good.

           10                 MR. STEWARD:  We get an incredible

           11   amount of support from our user communities with trash

           12   cleanup.

           13                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  You had a comment?

           14                 MR. HAMBY:  We also provide money to

           15   Inyo and Kern counties for assistance with dumpster

           16   use in this area up here.  So we are cooperating with

           17   them and we do pay them out of our pockets.  It

           18   doesn't come out of any user fees but out of BLM base

           19   dollars.

           20                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  All right.  That brings

           21   us to Fire Planning Update.  Do you want a short

           22   break?

           23              (Afternoon break was taken from

           24                   2:53 p.m. to 2:57 p.m.)

           25                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Back in session.  We
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            1   have fire planning update.  Sue, you are on.  Listen

            2   up, Gerry.

            3                 MS. ROCHA:  Hi, everyone.  Sue Rocha,

            4   deputy fire management officer at the CDD.

            5              Anyway, it says on the schedule that I'm

            6   here to talk about fire planning, but fire planning in

            7   my definition will bore you to death.  So -- because

            8   we are actually doing a federal fire planning program

            9   right now and it's just crazy.

           10              But I think the fire -- I read through the

           11   transcripts from your previous meeting you guys had.

           12   And so I'm going to go through that because you guys

           13   had certain questions, and I think that's why I'm here

           14   today.  But basically you know, I'm going to answer

           15   questions.  But if you would allow me just a few

           16   minutes and I will go through what I think your

           17   concerns were in your last meeting.  And I think it

           18   was a division between two topics:  One would be a

           19   fire preparedness operations topic and the other one

           20   would be more of a community assistance, fire

           21   mitigation, Fire Safe Council topic.  So they are

           22   divided into two definitions there.

           23              Anyway, as far as the Fire Safe Council,

           24   Community Awareness Planning and Preparedness,

           25   prevention and fuels mitigation work hand and hand.
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            1   And I know in the California Desert District, we have

            2   a pretty big -- especially in the southern end of the

            3   CDD realm, we have a pretty big mitigation, fuels

            4   mitigation and prevention program.  And those guys go

            5   to many Fire Safe Council meetings with the

            6   communities.

            7              And thank you, John Kalish, because I read

            8   through the transcript and you gave a pretty good

            9   definition of what Fire Safe Council meant and what

           10   community assistance meant.  And thank you for that.

           11   So he pretty much summed it up for you guys last time.

           12              But our fire mitigation people go to the

           13   meetings, and it's people like yourselves that go to

           14   these Fire Safe Councils and give us concerns.  You

           15   guys are the ones that come up with the projects.

           16   Maybe you guys have an area of concern, you know, such

           17   as thick vegetation.  And of course, California's high

           18   fire danger.  So you come to us and we get together

           19   and we prioritize as far as the whole state of

           20   California.  But within the CDD, we prioritize these

           21   projects and we come up with funding and we apply --

           22   well, not we, but you guys as community members, you

           23   guys apply for the grants and get some money.  And we

           24   help you guys get contractors and maybe even we could

           25   get some fire crews in there and we work hand and hand
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            1   with Cal Fire and the county fire departments.  They

            2   are big cooperators with us.

            3              So it's not just solely us, BLM.  Of

            4   course, we have cooperation with all the agencies and

            5   actually county and the state.  And the county guys,

            6   they are a big player because they are actually

            7   responsible for the private lands and around in the

            8   communities.  But we are there to help get all these

            9   projects going.

           10              So as far as the Fire Safe Councils, yeah,

           11   we have numerous Fire Safe Councils.  I know in the

           12   northern part of this Eastern Kern County, I was the

           13   fire mitigation person that worked out of the

           14   Ridgecrest field office a few years back and working

           15   with Mike Antonucci, who was the fire chief at the

           16   time, we worked diligently to work in this area, Cal

           17   City, Northern Mojave, all the way up through this

           18   whole area.  Twice we sent out fliers to all local

           19   businesses and some of the -- I think, you know,

           20   supervisors.  And I guess timing wasn't right or

           21   whatever.  We didn't get many responses back at all.

           22              Since then I know Mike Antonucci went to a

           23   different job somewhere down south, but anyway we did

           24   try to get a Fire Safe Council going in this area with

           25   Kern County and Cal City Fire Departments.  And I
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            1   think they are still trying.  It's a struggle.

            2   Everybody is so spread out it's really hard.  And

            3   there might not be the concerns out here in this

            4   desert area that we might have in some other areas.

            5              But I know that was a question I think

            6   directed to Hector.  But I know we are still working

            7   on that, still trying to get a -- we are going to call

            8   it, with the Eastern Kern County, Eastern Kern County

            9   Fire Safe Council as a specific.  But we are still

           10   working on that.

           11              Let's see.  What else?  I think I covered

           12   most of the Fire Safe Council questions.  As far as

           13   fire preparedness, preparing in a fire operations

           14   situation, we do in the springtime, even before spring

           15   because everybody knows in California, especially in

           16   the desert communities, our fire season can start in

           17   the spring and go year-round.  But look what is

           18   happening right now?  And I will give you guys a fire

           19   update if anybody is interested when I'm done.

           20              But anyway, so in springtime there are

           21   operations planning agreements.  We have agreements

           22   with the US Forest Service, the Angeles Forest, Cleveland

           23   Forest, San Bernardino Forest, Inyo National Forest

           24   and Cal Fire, Kern County Fire Department, Riverside

           25   Ranger Unit Cal Fire, San Bernardino Ranger Unit Cal
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            1   Fire.  We have cooperating agreements with all these

            2   folks, and we separately in all these different zones

            3   have springtime meetings, Ops meetings.  Who is

            4   responsible for what; who's going to help with what;

            5   what kind of staffing we have; how many engines;

            6   helicopters we are going to have; air tankers.

            7              So we all kind of get together and have

            8   meetings supposedly before fire season starts.  And so

            9   then we know what kind of resources everybody has out

           10   there.  And at that time, too, we talk about what kind

           11   of fuels programs we do have going on as well.  So we

           12   have these Ops meetings and hopefully a lot of

           13   questions get answered as far as preparedness at that

           14   time.

           15              And then -- and another concern reading

           16   through your transcripts of last meeting was large

           17   fire.  Large fire.  I think there was a local fire up

           18   here.  Some ranch owners had some questions regarding

           19   large fire Ops.  So I know that when these large fires

           20   happen anywhere, but in the desert, because we are

           21   talking about California desert, a team comes in, a

           22   separate team probably from somewhere else.  If it's a

           23   smaller fire, it will be a small localized team.  And

           24   we always have a base camp or a base situation set up

           25   somewhere in an office.  We always have community
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            1   meetings.  We are always inviting the community to

            2   come in and voice their concerns.

            3              So just, for instance, the particular fire

            4   that was in question, it was a large team, a Type 1

            5   team.  And there is public meetings, and we try to

            6   announce them in the newspapers, on the radios,

            7   whatever, where the meetings are going to be.  You are

            8   always welcome to come into our fire camp and ask.  We

            9   try to also vocalize when our AAR, After Action

           10   Review -- we always have an After Action Review of a

           11   large fire or even a small fire, any, actually, hazard

           12   situation.

           13              But in this large fire realm we have AAR,

           14   After Action Review, and the public and the concerned

           15   citizens are welcome to come to these AAR meetings and

           16   voice concerns.  I know there was concern with some

           17   resource advisors that might not have been

           18   coordinating as well as we probably should have

           19   anticipated.  But this is a place that you can voice

           20   your concerns in these AAR meetings.  And there we

           21   just learn from maybe our mistakes, and then we try to

           22   not make those mistakes in the future.

           23              So that's a big -- that's a big planning

           24   tool that we have.  Public meetings.  Feel free to

           25   come to these meetings during our large fires or even
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            1   small fires.  You can go to the local district, local

            2   field offices and voice your concerns.

            3              But as far as preplanning -- and all these

            4   teams that get together for these large fires like

            5   this last fire season, of course, Northern California

            6   was overwhelmed.  But we try to prepare the best that

            7   we can.  The teams get together and we do scenarios.

            8   We do tabletop exercises.  We really try our best.

            9   It's so hard.  Fire behavior, we try to predict it as

           10   much as we can.  But as you know looking down south,

           11   when the wind kicks in, they couldn't even fly the

           12   aircraft until 12 o'clock today because it was 60, 80

           13   miles an hour down in Southern California.  And even

           14   then, the aircraft -- it's hard with the wind.  The

           15   fire is just going and going.  And we don't want to

           16   put anybody out there in front because that's very

           17   dangerous.  I don't want my buddies, I don't want the

           18   public to get hurt.

           19              And that's another thing with evacuation

           20   that came up in your last meeting.  And there again,

           21   it's safety.  I know we ask residents to evacuate.  We

           22   ask them.  We cannot force them to.  You were free to

           23   stay.  Some of these homes or ranches that are out

           24   away from maybe major municipal water sources, my

           25   suggestion is work with Fire Safe Councils and get
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            1   something going, have your own hydrants.  Have your

            2   own little system.  And you can stay in there.  You

            3   can stay in place if you have done your weed

            4   abatement, cleaned your leaves out of gutters because

            5   actually, well-done fire, it's not the flames hitting

            6   your homes and burning your house down.  It's a mile

            7   away.  It's a little ember that gets up in the smoke

            8   column, a little tiny thing that blows up in the air

            9   and blows a mile away and lands in your gutters

           10   because you didn't clean your gutters out.  And that's

           11   what is going to get your house.  And your eaves

           12   underneath your home, the older homes, the embers get

           13   up into your attic, and we can't see that, plus there

           14   is not that many fires resources to go to every single

           15   structure.

           16              That's really hard for us.  We wish we

           17   could go to every structure.  It's hard for us to see

           18   a fire this little in an attic.  If we could get to it

           19   we would.  So we ask the people to clean their

           20   gutters, clean vegetation away from your house, trees

           21   overhanging.  Go to these Fire Safe Council meetings,

           22   a lot of the stuff is on-line.  You can dial up Fire

           23   Safe Council and it's great information.  Anyway, I

           24   kind of went on a tangent there.

           25              Yeah, you can tell that I'm excited about
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            1   what I do for a living.  So I think I covered

            2   everything that I thought you guys had concerns with.

            3   So now I'm prepared for you guys to hit me with

            4   anything.

            5                 MEMBER CHARLTON:  Could you comment on

            6   your coordination with military bases?

            7                 MS. ROCHA:  Yes.  Matter of fact, I

            8   think we are getting ready to sign something with

            9   China Lake Fire in this local area.  And while it's

           10   very dangerous with the military -- are you talking

           11   about the property specifically?

           12                 MEMBER CHARLTON:  All the coordination

           13   and also if military starts a fire, like, with a plane

           14   crash.

           15                 MS. ROCHA:  Their lands are very

           16   dangerous.  They have a lot of hazardous things around

           17   in their property perimeter.  And that's why a lot of

           18   times -- and I can only speak from example being here

           19   in this area, in China Lake, it's hard for us to cross

           20   that line because of hazardous things.  I don't know

           21   specifically if they drop things out of their planes

           22   and they parachute, and they just do crazy things.

           23   And there are things on the ground that are hazardous.

           24   So we don't want them and we don't want ourselves to

           25   be wandering around and have something go wrong.
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            1              But when there is a fire on their land --

            2   and there were actually plane crashes on the China Lake

            3   property -- what they do is they contact I think Kern

            4   County, too, but I know that specifically because our

            5   land is all adjacent to all their property, they

            6   called our fire management officer in this area.  And

            7   they coordinated with him and asked him, hey, can you

            8   assist us?  And we did end up bringing a helicopter

            9   in, and we worked on funding.  And I haven't read the

           10   proposed agreement right now, but we do work with them

           11   hand in hand.

           12              And as far as funding, I'm not sure how

           13   that's working out.  But we were able to help them.

           14   The neat thing about their property is it's vast land.

           15   There is not a lot of structures in the way if they do

           16   end up starting a fire.  So there is not a lot of life

           17   and property that's at threat.  So a lot of time we

           18   can do water drops with aircraft up in the air, not

           19   people on the ground, but up in the air and kind of

           20   curtail and herd a fire.

           21              And this ecosystem, ecosystems usually in

           22   all military property, it's a desert ecosystem.  And

           23   usually when the sun goes down or the wind stops, the

           24   fire pretty much dies down really good.  And we can

           25   get in there and hit it hard with aircraft.  But we do
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            1   coordinate with them.  All right.  What else?

            2                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Any other questions?

            3                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Can we get a fire

            4   update?

            5                 MS. ROCHA:  Okay.  That's important

            6   stuff.  Okay.  There is a fire that started in the

            7   Sylmar area.  If you know the 210 freeway and the 5

            8   freeway right there, a bit of trivia, that's the old

            9   loop fire fatality area.  Back in '66, there were some

           10   folks that didn't have significant radio

           11   communications.

           12              Anyway, 5,000-plus acres.  So the corner of

           13   210 and 5.  They are calling that the Sayre fire.

           14   Then there was a multiple -- approximately five fire

           15   starts in around the area of Corona.  And hopefully,

           16   there is nobody -- anyway it's going through the Santa

           17   Ana drainages right now.  The drainage of Santa Ana

           18   Creek.  Chino area too.  But that one is giving them

           19   some problems right now.

           20                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Is 15 still open?

           21                 MS. ROCHA:  I don't know that.  I could

           22   find that.

           23                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  14 is not open.

           24                 MS. ROCHA:  If you guys are going back

           25   in those areas, I will find out.  Before you guys
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            1   leave, I will get on the phone and talk to my

            2   dispatch.  I will be able to tell you guys.

            3                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  I'm late because I

            4   was checking on that.  The Newhall Pass is still

            5   closed.  Part of the 91-71 still closed.  Now there is

            6   a fire in Anaheim Hills.  I couldn't see what closures

            7   are affecting that.

            8                 MR. WALDHEIM:  You could still take

            9   Angeles Crest.

           10                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  I wouldn't say no.

           11   Because I'll bet they are closing Angeles Crest

           12   because fire is in the Angeles National Forest up to

           13   Little Tujunga.

           14                 MS. ROCHA:  On the other side of Tujunga

           15   Drainage.

           16                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  I'm sorry, I missed

           17   it.

           18                 MS. ROCHA:  Anaheim Hills is part of all

           19   that Corona -- there was like five of them this

           20   morning.  But those are giving them a heck of a time

           21   down there right now.  The winds are still strong.

           22              There is a new one in San Diego County.  We

           23   don't know if it's on the eastern side of San Diego,

           24   but I'm not sure, but in the Monte Vista Ranger Unit

           25   area for Cal Fire.  So that's like the newest fire.  I
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            1   don't have much information on that one.

            2                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Still have the one in

            3   Santa Barbara County?

            4                 MS. ROCHA:  That one, of course.  I

            5   heard they are okay with that one because their winds

            6   on that west side have died down a little bit.  I

            7   think they are kind of getting a handle.  You never

            8   know.

            9                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  It's all our resources

           10   are there?

           11                 MS. ROCHA:  Yeah.  That was actually

           12   something else in the last meeting or last

           13   meeting you guys had.  Somebody, it might have been

           14   you, were talking about with all those fires that

           15   happened all at once in California, that our resources

           16   are spread thin.  And then we bring resources from out

           17   of the area, and they are staged to fight the initial

           18   attack fires, new fires in an area, let's just say.

           19              Well, what we do in that case, like say a

           20   Northern California engine came down and covered for

           21   this area right here.  They are not familiar with this

           22   area.  There is a battalion or division chief within

           23   the county or even BLM or Forest Service in a certain

           24   area.  What we do is we brief them.  We give them

           25   maps, phone numbers.  We try to give them as much
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            1   information as we can.  We give them street maps with

            2   addresses and all that kind of stuff.  So it tries to

            3   prepare them better that they can be successful in an

            4   initial attack.

            5                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Sue, do any BLM

            6   resources have fire assignments right now?

            7                 MS. ROCHA:  Right now we are trying to

            8   assemble a task force.  Four of our engines, our

            9   light engines and three of our Type 3 engines and the

           10   water tender, we are putting all those together in the

           11   California Desert District.  And I don't know which

           12   fire they are going to go to.  But GAC, Geographic

           13   Area Command down in Riverside, they are coordinating

           14   and we are putting that together to assist in one of

           15   the fires down there.

           16                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Thank you very much.

           17                 MS. ROCHA:  I will check on road

           18   conditions because I think you guys are going to be

           19   done pretty quick.  So I will check on road conditions

           20   and see what is closed.

           21                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Appreciate it.  Thank

           22   you very much.  Believe it or not, we are ready for

           23   public comments.  Brad, I know you have been patiently

           24   waiting, and I thank you for that.

           25                 SUPERVISOR MITZELFELT:  Brad Mitzelfelt,
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            1   County Supervisor, First District, San Bernardino

            2   County.  I know a lot of you.  Not all of you.  But I

            3   think there is a great forum here.  And so I'm glad I

            4   attended today and I will attend more.

            5              Just a few comments I would like to touch

            6   on, issues of concern.  I have about 8 million acres

            7   of public land in my district, and that doesn't

            8   include the military.  I have all or part of the five

            9   military bases on top of that.  So a lot of federal

           10   land and a lot of issues are pressing all at once.

           11              As you know -- and it was discussed

           12   today -- with the situation with the Marine Corps

           13   Aircraft Combat Center proposing to expand.  And we

           14   are also dealing with the renewable energy projects

           15   and that conflagration of those.  It's quite an

           16   interesting time to be in my position.

           17              As a former Marine, looking at the

           18   Twentynine Palms expansion, I understand the need for

           19   it, would like to accommodate it; however, there are

           20   two -- it's no secret -- there are two side effects,

           21   both of which are unacceptable.  One is an almost

           22   complete loss of the Johnson Valley open area, which

           23   is really critical for recreation and for economy in

           24   the Morongo Basin and Lucerne Valley and out there.

           25   And the other is the loss of Amboy Road, which is a
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            1   critical highway for my district and the residents in

            2   my district in San Bernardino County.

            3              So we will be very involved in the process,

            4   as with the renewable energy projects.  I spoke during

            5   one of the scoping meetings from the PEIS process for

            6   the solar.  And one of the things I touched on was, as

            7   you know, we have an MOU.  We cooperate on a lot of

            8   things, and one of them is protecting our groundwater

            9   sources, our aquifers in unadjudicated desert basins.

           10              And one of those basins happens to be in

           11   the Ivanpah area and one that I'm very concerned about

           12   because of the amount of water that Primm uses on the

           13   Nevada side.  There are competing uses that may

           14   compete for the same water on the California side.  So

           15   that's something that I have been focusing a lot of

           16   attention on.

           17              In addition to that, I spoke about the need

           18   to look -- and I'm glad you have this letter going out

           19   with regard to the greenhouse gases, because that's

           20   really where a lot of the impetus for the renewable

           21   energy projects are coming in.  We are dealing with

           22   AB-32 at the county level.  State passing AB-32 and

           23   SB-375 have profound impacts on us as counties.  My

           24   county was sued by the attorney general over our

           25   general plan.  We settled and we set forth a process
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            1   for accounting for and taking credit for things that

            2   we are doing to address greenhouse gas emissions.  I

            3   voted against that settlement, just for the record.

            4   But the fact is that the vote was taken, so we are

            5   doing it.

            6              And I mentioned during the PEIS testimony

            7   that we are going to be seeing about 100 square miles

            8   of warehouses being built in San Bernardino and

            9   Riverside County to accommodate goods movement from

           10   international trade.  And that's a lot of rooftops.

           11   And so 20 to 30 percent of those rooftops potentially

           12   will be located in Southern California in Victorville.

           13   That is the former George Air Force base whose reuse

           14   authority I chair.  And I think I could be helpful in

           15   making sure that those rooftops have solar panels on

           16   them.  And we need to take credit for that so that

           17   when we look at the west and how much of the solar

           18   burden is being carried, that it's not only desert we

           19   are looking at.

           20              If we have 200 applicants for solar in the

           21   California desert, and let's say 10 percent of them

           22   result in a power plant, that may be seen as not

           23   meeting our share.  They may say 20 solar power plants

           24   might not meet your share.  But don't forget about the

           25   rooftops.
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            1              And don't forget about the possibility of

            2   working with local government for the transmission

            3   corridors.  For instance, we are building a new

            4   highway from Victorville to Palmdale, and we have a

            5   Joint Powers Authority with Los Angeles County.  And

            6   we have set up that JPA so we can do utility

            7   corridors; we can do rail; and we can do the highway,

            8   the toll road that we want to do.  And this project is

            9   five years away from its first phase starting.  And

           10   it's something I think we should look at cooperation

           11   on if you are looking for transmission corridors.

           12              Another one would be if Amboy Road ends up

           13   being realigned as a result of the eastward

           14   portion of the expansion at the Marine base, then look

           15   at that as a potential utility corridor.  I prefer

           16   that to using Route 66, for instance, which I believe

           17   is currently the plan or one of the plans.

           18              So with regard to, again, the Marine

           19   expansion, I have proposed and I will be meeting with

           20   the congressional members to talk about this, and some

           21   people say it's a nonstarter.  But I believe that we

           22   have to look at all options.  And I just wanted to get

           23   on the record here that I believe that there is

           24   potential for more areas in the eastward portion, such

           25   as the Sheephole area and Cadiz Dunes where some of it
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            1   could be -- could remain wilderness and some of it

            2   could become Marine base and it would have a lot less

            3   conflict than we would see on the other side with

            4   Johnson Valley.

            5              60,000 acres I believe of private property

            6   they would have to acquire.  Lots of residences in

            7   Lucerne Valley and Johnson Valley.  Lots of impacts if

            8   the Marines go into Johnson Valley.  800,000 visitors

            9   a year go there, and it's something we really need to

           10   keep, if at all possible.

           11              So I think that the government really needs

           12   to look at all the options.  And the County of San

           13   Bernardino is going to be engaged probably more than

           14   you have ever seen in these issues.  I'm committed to

           15   that.  My constituents expect that from me, and it's

           16   going to be a challenge and a learning experience.

           17   But so far, I appreciate the cooperation of the BLM

           18   and I appreciate your attention today.  Thank you.

           19                (Applause from the audience.)

           20                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Okay.  Comment card

           21   from David Matthews.  David Matthews here?

           22                 MR. MATTHEWS:  I need to stretch.  Dave

           23   Matthews, general public.

           24              First of all, as a resident of Ridgecrest I

           25   would like to welcome everybody here to the meeting.
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            1   We always welcome your dollars being spent here,

            2   although nobody buys any of my stuff, even my words

            3   sometimes, so it doesn't benefit me that much.

            4              I had a question this morning and I got

            5   here too late to fill out a request for it.  I forget

            6   that was the procedure.  But my question is regarding

            7   Surprise Canyon management plan or whatever it is.

            8   Why is it taking so damn long?  We have gone through I

            9   don't know how many different Desert Advisory

           10   Managers, numerous public affairs officers.  It's the

           11   speed of government, and somehow we've got to learn

           12   how to speed that up.

           13              Ron probably remembers when the area got

           14   closed over there.  I don't remember exactly, but I

           15   know it's been a long time.  I'm getting old.  I would

           16   like to see it resolved before I leave.  For those

           17   that may not remember or don't know, you can go down

           18   here to the Historical Society and probably see some

           19   pictures.  You used to be able to drive up that canyon

           20   all the way up to Panamint City and beyond in a

           21   two-wheel drive vehicle.  Now, you guys were over

           22   there and you saw what it takes now.

           23              I still think we need a route up in there.

           24   Unfortunately, they probably didn't leave enough

           25   cherry stem out of that whole mess.  But there was a
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            1   road there and that was part of the history of this

            2   area and this country.  It was built by the miners up

            3   there, and I don't know why we can't rebuild it, put

            4   something in that resembles it.

            5              I think Mr. Waldheim was rather gracious

            6   this morning in his apology for his sell-out statement

            7   because -- and for the people here present, that may

            8   have been appropriate.  But I have seen and others in

            9   this room have seen when the higher levels, DAC, we

           10   get sold out.  And maybe it's the Congress, maybe it's

           11   whoever.  But there has been too much of that because

           12   back there, eventually -- and one of them was the

           13   solicitors.  They cave in.  And we are the public.  We

           14   have as much right as these special interest groups.

           15   And Mr. Banis hit it right on the head this morning in

           16   his comment that the general public generally is

           17   getting the short end of the straw.  And mainly

           18   because we are individuals.  We like to go out on our

           19   own.  We don't have the time or resources to join a

           20   group, which takes a lot of organization.  And some of

           21   these other groups I think are getting themselves --

           22   their members sold short by their leadership.

           23              Okay.  I kind of resented the fact that you

           24   didn't take questions after each presentation from the

           25   public because some of the people are already gone.
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            1   And some of us don't write down questions that arise

            2   at the time.

            3              However, with regard to the renewable

            4   energy, I do have some comments to make.  Of course

            5   County Supervisor with San Bernardino right here hit

            6   something right on the head that I was going to

            7   mention.  As far as solar is concerned, we are

            8   looking, as big government always does, at the big,

            9   widespread major projects.  Well, I got news for you.

           10   Solar energy doesn't have to be a big project.  We

           11   have lots of roofs around.  We've got lots of parking

           12   lots.  In fact, the City of Ridgecrest has been

           13   looking at something like that right now for their

           14   complex.  It can be distributed.

           15              And a number of meetings back, Sam Burke

           16   and I coming back from one meeting down below, we said

           17   why don't we put solar energy panels on all these

           18   transmission towers already existing?  Well, nobody

           19   said anything about trying to do that.  It's entirely

           20   feasible.  Distribute energy generation.

           21              And if the BLM needs some advice in that

           22   particular area, there has been an association in

           23   existence for a very long, long time, probably even

           24   longer than I have, really, called the American Solar

           25   Energy Society.  They are -- they have a Web site.
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            1   They have been into this stuff for many, many years.

            2   And some of these things that I have already

            3   mentioned, the rooftops, the local individual solar

            4   panels, they are already out there.  They are being

            5   used.

            6              One comment on the Stirling engine.

            7   Stirling engine has been around for a long time.

            8   Probably just the technology has been improved

            9   recently.  And I think the gas is really helium and

           10   not hydrogen.  What it is, is just the same thing as

           11   your combustion engine in your car except it's closed

           12   cycle.  The gas doesn't go out.  And it's heated and

           13   recooled again.  In fact, about a month or two ago, a

           14   gentleman here in town who was interested in solar

           15   energy for many years, he had a little parabolic

           16   mirror set up at one of the meetings I attended,

           17   Stirling engine mounted on the top.  It sounded like a

           18   little put-put lawn mower going.  And you could attach

           19   a generator or whatever you want to the back of that

           20   thing, and it will generate your electricity or turn

           21   your still or whatever you want to hook it up to.  In

           22   fact, I think I will look into that.

           23              Okay.  Let's see.  What else do I have

           24   here?  Oh.  As far as the wild fires, this may not

           25   necessarily have anything to do with planning, but I
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            1   am very concerned that in many of the cases where the

            2   Forest Service and the BLM get together, they are

            3   really not going by the same policies.  And what I am

            4   citing is that -- I think it was last summer we had a

            5   fire up here in the Sierras and they let it burn.

            6   Well, that's fine, except that all that smoke came

            7   over here and started causing breathing problems for

            8   the humans in the valley and up north, you know.  And

            9   it's causing health problems.  You have to consider

           10   what the fires are doing when you let them burn.  The

           11   human element is too often left out.

           12              I guess other than that -- oh, I forgot to

           13   mention I usually try to make the field tours, but I

           14   have a family situation now where I can't leave very

           15   long or too far away, and I didn't make the one

           16   yesterday.  I was hoping to maybe join you folks for

           17   dinner last night, but I didn't know where it was

           18   going to be until I called Ron Schiller's wife and

           19   found out it was going to be out there at the

           20   Pinnacles.  And I said I can't get out there for it.

           21   But I'm jealous.  Next time you have a barbecue here

           22   in town.  And we can make a burro for them.

           23                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Thank you, David.

           24   Okay.  Sophia Merk.

           25                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I would like to make a
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            1   quick comment regarding something that David

            2   mentioned.  When Ron Kemper was the chair, this was

            3   always an issue on the public having questions.  By

            4   the time they get to ask their question, the resource

            5   person is gone.  And Ron during his chair, we

            6   established that we would have a brief question period

            7   for the public after each item.

            8                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  We are trying to

            9   finetune the program.

           10                 MEMBER SCHILLER:  I understand that, but

           11   I think that was very good to continue that, if you

           12   could.

           13                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  It's good to have the

           14   public comment.  So Sophia.

           15                 SOPHIA MERK:  My name is Sophia Merk.  I

           16   live here in Ridgecrest.  I wanted to welcome you guys

           17   to Ridgecrest.  It's been a hard battle to get you

           18   guys back up here.  It's been a couple years.  And it

           19   would be really, really nice if the DAC committee

           20   could schedule their meetings and go to each district

           21   and do it on a -- instead of holding them all down at

           22   where the CDD is and all that.

           23              But one of the things that makes this group

           24   so wonderful is the diversity in this group.  Asking

           25   questions from the mining, asking questions from
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            1   public-at-large and commenting on how some of these

            2   meetings are being held for the public, because the

            3   public is what makes up public lands.  And sometimes

            4   we forget that.

            5              One of the things I would like to comment

            6   on is Surprise Canyon.  I know that -- I just want to

            7   comment briefly on that.

            8                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  On what?

            9                 MS. MERK:  On Surprise Canyon.  And in

           10   2001 there was a public notice put in the Federal

           11   Register that an EIS would be forthcoming from the

           12   BLM.  Now, I understand today that it's going to be in

           13   conjunction with Death Valley National Park.  I truly

           14   hope that the BLM also does it and not just leave it

           15   up to Death Valley National Park and just write off on

           16   it.  That's all I have to say about that.

           17              But one more thing I want to comment on,

           18   too, is the Programatic EIS's coming up.  I would like

           19   to see in the verbiage of some of these Programatic

           20   EISs that they have a review period every two to three

           21   years.  And the ones that I have read have not

           22   specifically spelled that out, and they should because

           23   technology changes.  Just like we are finding out

           24   information on the Stirling engines, how much water

           25   it's going to use and how much water this one uses, as
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            1   technology develops, we need to find that information

            2   out.  So we need to have a review process for all

            3   these Programatic EIS's.  And thank you very much for

            4   your time.

            5                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  John, did you want to

            6   say anything else?

            7                 MR. STEWART:  Yes.  John Stewart,

            8   natural resources consultant with California

            9   Association of Four-Wheel Drive Clubs.

           10              Over the last five or six or seven years

           11   ago, there was major planning efforts undergone to

           12   come up with the WEMO/NEMO/NECO and all these various

           13   desert plans.  We are far enough down the pipeline of

           14   trying to implement those plans that now it's time to

           15   look at some of the travel management and some of the

           16   decisions made within the scope or framework of these

           17   plans in order to validate that they are still in

           18   existence or still appropriate today.

           19              This is more important as we see these

           20   increasing impacts, such as the Twentynine Palms

           21   proposed expansion, proposed wilderness expansion,

           22   proposed solar, wind, geothermal, transmission lines.

           23   All of these are competing uses along with

           24   recreational access or the public access to the public

           25   lands.
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            1              While not -- I'm not going to say one use

            2   is better than the other because they are all valid

            3   uses.  But it's going to entail a lot of planning and

            4   consideration from a number of different aspects.

            5   Some of these aspects, as more and more attention is

            6   focused on the open areas themselves, I would hope we

            7   would not lose sight of the fact that there is an

            8   existing network of dispersed recreation routes out in

            9   the desert that's just as important to public access

           10   as the open areas are.  Those are the ones that

           11   provide access to bird viewing areas, bird hunting

           12   areas, dear hunting areas, rockhounding.  Those are

           13   four-wheel drive touring opportunities.  And these are

           14   important aspects that the public is looking for

           15   recreational opportunities.

           16              And within that framework, it's also

           17   important to note that the California Desert District

           18   sits surrounded by some of the largest population

           19   centers and the rapid growth centers in the nation

           20   with the Clark County, San Bernardino, the L.A. basin

           21   area.  With this increase of population comes an

           22   increase of people wanting to come out and view what

           23   is in their backyard:  The deserts, the mountains.

           24   Within that framework it's going to be very important

           25   that we have more accurate maps of routes to go,
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            1   showing people where they can go, what they can see.

            2   Some of the wonders -- a little bit more explanation

            3   about the wonders such as the Pinnacles and the other

            4   areas out there.  Point people to where you want them

            5   to go.  People are there.  They are coming.  They are

            6   going to want to get out.

            7              I hope that this next go-around of planning

            8   is that the cumulative effects of all of the

            9   discussions or proposals on the table are looked at.

           10   And the one thing that has always been left at the

           11   bottom being public access for the public, that that

           12   is given up and looked at as a highly important

           13   criteria in these decisions.

           14                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Thank you.

           15   Mr. Waldheim, do you have further?

           16                 MR. WALDHEIM:  Yes, I would like the

           17   Council to join myself and the Friends of Jawbone in

           18   thanking Hector Villalobos and his entire staff for

           19   getting our 5 and our 50 opened up in the Rands, a

           20   six-year project since it was close to getting it

           21   open.  Now, these days BLM doesn't open these things.

           22   But we got 15 miles back and thank you, Steve, for

           23   November 1 being the due date.  I don't know if you

           24   got the picture in the newspaper.  Did you get that

           25   picture?  So he is in the paper, and it was a
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            1   fantastic event.  So I want to thank you very much for

            2   doing that.

            3                   (Applause from the audience.)

            4              I already thanked the Barstow office for El

            5   Mirage opening, so I don't have to go over that again,

            6   but that was a milestone.  It was a 20-year project.

            7   I made the motion up as a commissioner to put a

            8   million dollars in.  Mike Ahrens, the one who dared me

            9   to do it, and I did it, he wrote the grant.  He said

           10   not a fat chance you are ever going to get that back.

           11   What we didn't plan on was two million dollars where

           12   Mike Pool, the director of state office, he was

           13   gracious enough to find the other million dollars.

           14   Otherwise, we wouldn't be saying hallelujah, we

           15   finally got it.  So it's a fun thing.  The Friends of

           16   El Mirage are running the visitors store and book

           17   store.  So two milestones were done in the last two

           18   weeks, so we are really proud of that.

           19              The last thing:  I would strongly urge you

           20   to come up with some kind of a resolution from your

           21   board.  You have had Brad from the supervisors from

           22   San Bernardino County.  He is taking the lead in

           23   trying to save public access to the recreational areas

           24   for all folks and businesses in the San Bernardino

           25   County Association -- what do they call it? -- the
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            1   movie association.  Anyway, they do a lot of movies in

            2   that area.  It would be devastating to our economy if

            3   we were to lose that.

            4              So I think it would be cool if you as

            5   Council members joined Brad and the rest of us

            6   multiple users in saying, yes, we agree, you need to

            7   expand.  One of the reasons they did 420,000 acres

            8   instead of 185,000 acres is so they can study the rest

            9   of the story.  And we worked very hard with

           10   Partnership for Johnson Valley, with the military.  I

           11   personally have been at their base with the generals

           12   and making the Power Point with Wayne Nosala.  So we

           13   have done our pushing.  Brad now, thank God, he is

           14   stepped in with Gerry Hillier working very hard.  So

           15   please before you leave, come up with some resolution

           16   so we can move forward saving Johnson Valley.

           17                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Mr. Dunlop, do you have

           18   anything?  Last card here.

           19                 MR. DUNLOP:  Chris Dunlop, California

           20   Motorcycle Safety Program.

           21              I saw you got all your requirements for

           22   ATVs for certain age children having to have a safety

           23   course or anything else.  Has that been expanded on

           24   for possible dirt bikes or any other sort of program

           25   as a blanket requirement for all ATV users or all dirt
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            1   bike users?

            2                 MR. WALDHEIM:  I can answer that.  It's

            3   a state law that was passed when we were on the

            4   commission.  We got the ATV program going through.  It

            5   doesn't apply to older people.  16 years and under,

            6   U.S. kids have to have a training, including the

            7   parents, to be able to drive a four-wheel drive.  The

            8   motorcycles, it doesn't cover it.  But we are

            9   encouraging all the young kids to take the course even

           10   though you are on a motorcycle to do it.  That's state

           11   law.  The OHV division is the one that handles that

           12   from the Parks and Recreation Division.  They are the

           13   ones that work on that, not the BLM.  That's a state

           14   issue.

           15                 MR. DUNLOP:  Oh, state issue.  Oh, never

           16   mind, wrong people.

           17                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  That concludes the

           18   public comment.  That takes us down to wrap-up and

           19   summary.  Next location.  There was a request for the

           20   Barstow office.  Is that the consensus of the

           21   committee?

           22                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I want to see the

           23   Hammers.

           24                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  I don't see anybody

           25   jumping up and down and saying no, so our next meeting
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            1   will be at Barstow.  And any wrap-up comments from

            2   anybody?

            3                 MR. RAZO:  Shall we check on dates,

            4   potentials?  Usually we meet late February or early

            5   March, we try.

            6                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Perfect.

            7                 MEMBER ACUNA:  March.

            8                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  February.

            9                 MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Late February.

           10                 MR. RAZO:  March 20, 21.

           11                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  March 20 and 21?  That

           12   works for me.  Anybody have any objections with those

           13   two dates?  Last chance.

           14                 MEMBER RUDNICK:  I will let you know.

           15                 MR. RAZO:  We are going to go for March

           16   20, 21 in Barstow.  Agenda topics, things you want to

           17   cover?

           18                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Want a military

           19   representative.  And I would like to tour the Hammers.

           20                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  I think obviously

           21   Johnson Valley is the hot topic.

           22                 MR. RAZO:  Johnson valley.  The Hammers.

           23                 MR. WALDHEIM:  Daphne Green.  Steve's

           24   got her down.

           25                 MR. RAZO:  Rock climbing demo.  We can
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            1   all work together on that.  Certainly.  Do we still

            2   have somebody here from Barstow?

            3                 MR. WALDHEIM:  No, they all left.  Mike

            4   Ahrens wants to jump in.

            5                 MR. RAZO:  We need to tell them somebody

            6   is coming.

            7                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  You know, we had our

            8   issue of public comment during the time.  And I think

            9   there is some validity to allowing questions during

           10   the presentation.  Possibly we could set up some kind

           11   of a light system or something to cut down -- keep the

           12   time frame to a manageable level and not letting them

           13   go on and on, but still allow people to make comment.

           14                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  There is a

           15   difference between asking a question and grabbing the

           16   bully pulpit.  And I would suggest maybe an effort

           17   made to restrict questions to questions.  But

           18   allowable to put the context to the question.

           19                 MEMBER HOLIDAY:  Yeah, I think there is

           20   some validity to the idea of asking questions.

           21                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Maybe to put it in

           22   questions rather than commentary.

           23                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Can we have

           24   questions at certain periods, like questions after the

           25   field managers give their reports, like three
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            1   different times for the public to ask their questions

            2   so it's a little bit more structured, I guess is what

            3   I am looking for.

            4                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  I think what we need to

            5   do is take a look to see what's going to work.  Today

            6   was the first experiment with the Waldheim method, and

            7   obviously it takes a long time.  So we need to try to

            8   get down to a better time.  All of this came out of

            9   our last meeting in Riverside.  We made an effort

           10   today.

           11                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  I'm new, but just

           12   to be clear, I've been testifying for ten years.  And

           13   even before Congress you usually have max, ten

           14   minutes.  Most of the time on the State hearings you

           15   only get three to five.  And in the city councils and

           16   county councils, the most time is two to three

           17   minutes.  I think for the question part -- I know this

           18   is not those things -- but the question part maybe we

           19   could -- they have a timer or bell.  And then maybe

           20   after the whole thing, the commentary, whether the

           21   presenters are still here or not, could be allowed

           22   after the whole meeting is over.  But I think you need

           23   to keep it tighter.  That's my suggestion.  That's

           24   all.

           25                 MEMBER CHARLTON:  I have been to a lot
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            1   of these, and you get two problems.  One is being able

            2   to ask all the questions; the second is throwing the

            3   timing so far off that people who come here to hear

            4   something at a certain time miss it.  And the changes

            5   that were made today was to try to get back on

            6   schedule.  And every meeting is different.  Some of

            7   them end early; some of them drag on longer than

            8   possible.  And it's hard to finetune these things.

            9   Every meeting is different.

           10                 MEMBER BANIS:  Will it be the time for

           11   elections of new officers at that next meeting since

           12   the chairman and potentially the vice chairman may not

           13   be back with us?  And may I suggest that that might be

           14   a more appropriate time to bring up the discussion

           15   since it is the next chairman that will be enforcing

           16   this rule.  And he will want to do something probably

           17   that's comfortable for him -- or her.

           18                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Any other wrap-ups?

           19                 MEMBER CHARLTON:  I had one little

           20   comment that I wanted to make.

           21              I have spent most of my adult life writing

           22   environmental documents.  And some of the newer

           23   documents are so vague that the old documents are

           24   better.  I hear lots of complaints about the Desert

           25   Tortoise Recovery Plan, as an example.
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            1              And then second is, I spent four years

            2   working on the EIS for Fort Irwin expansion and as a

            3   contractor.  And just thought I would bring it up.

            4   There was absolutely no communication between the poor

            5   contractor writing the document and the military about

            6   what they really wanted.  The very important part of

            7   these military training operations is the length and

            8   the width of the valleys they are in.  We wrote a

            9   document before I came, and the military took a look

           10   and said that's not where we want to expand.  It was a

           11   quarter of a million dollar document that we ended up

           12   having to completely rewrite.

           13                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  The military is the

           14   lead agency, so they are going to be dealing directly

           15   with that contractor.  That's my understanding;

           16   correct, Steve?

           17                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I don't know how

           18   their communications are going with their contractor.

           19                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  But it's their

           20   contractor, not ours?

           21                 DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Yes, the Marines

           22   have contracted for the services of preparing the

           23   environmental analysis.

           24                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  We would hope they

           25   would be communicating with their own contractor.
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            1                 MEMBER CHARLTON:  Yeah.  No, I just

            2   wanted people to know that it could be a serious

            3   problem.  Everybody is assuming that it's not

            4   happening.

            5                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Maybe that's a question

            6   we need to ask at the next meeting.  Are you talking

            7   to your contractor?

            8                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Of course, that

            9   would be insulting.

           10                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  Anything else?

           11                 MEMBER BANIS:  I would like to thank the

           12   two Steves for a marked improvement of the

           13   notification of the meetings, the agenda items,

           14   planning documents.  I know about six months to a year

           15   ago you took a lot of comments from folks that things

           16   weren't timely.  Terrific improvement I felt, much

           17   more on the ball this time for this meeting.  Thank

           18   you both.

           19                 (Applause from the audience.)

           20                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Being new, I have a

           21   procedural question with regard to Mr. Waldheim's

           22   request.  Does the chair or someone decide to act on

           23   that or push it to another agenda?  I'm just curious.

           24                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  You are bringing it up

           25   for discussion.  What do you want to discuss?
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            1                 MEMBER ACUNA:  I think at the next

            2   meeting we have a greater opportunity to proceed with

            3   real issues.  We are going to get a good feel for

            4   things and I think we will be better able to address

            5   that comment that Ed Waldheim -- a statement from us

            6   would be appropriate at that time.

            7                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Personally, I want

            8   to say yes.  But I also am going to do my damnedest to

            9   get to the December 5th presentation because I feel

           10   like we need to give the Marines their due.  And right

           11   now I'm not doubting anybody's veracity, but at the

           12   same time I would like to weigh what was said here and

           13   what they are presenting and then make a decision.

           14              So I have a two-pronged question.  If you

           15   vote it for now, I would have to say I withhold or

           16   abstain.

           17                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  I think Tom had a good

           18   suggestion.  That's going to be the meat of the next

           19   meeting and might be a better decision after hearing

           20   that.

           21                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  If we have an

           22   opportunity before the next meeting --

           23                 CHAIRMAN MABEN:  There is no rush to

           24   judgment.  Most of us will be off the DAC before that

           25   decision will be made.
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            1                 MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Normally when the

            2   public makes a suggestion like that, we don't have to

            3   do anything.  If one of us on the DAC decides to do

            4   it, we can make a motion to that effect.  Just for

            5   future reference, I want him to know that procedure

            6   also.

            7                 MEMBER FITZPATRICK:  Thank you.

            8                 CHAIR MABEN:  Well, with that, I think

            9   we are adjourned, folks.

           10              (The proceedings concluded at 3:57 p.m.)

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            1          R E P O R T E R ' S   C E R T I F I C A T E

            2

            3

            4          I, JUDITH W. GILLESPIE, a Certified Shorthand

            5   Reporter, CSR No. 3710, for the State of California,

            6   do hereby certify that the foregoing pages comprise a

            7   full, true and correct transcription of the

            8   proceedings had and the testimony taken at the hearing

            9   in the hereinbefore-entitled matter of Saturday,

           10   November 15, 2008.

           11              Dated this 4th day of December, 2008, at

           12   Riverside, California.

           13

           14

           15

           16

           17

           18           _________________________________________
                        JUDITH W. GILLESPIE, CSR, RPR (CSR #3710)
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