780

                                 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                                 FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

                ELOUISE PEPION COBELL, et    .
                al.                          .
                                             .
                         Plaintiffs,         .  Civil Action 96-1285
                                             .
                    v.                       .
                                             .  Washington, D.C.
                DIRK KEMPTHORNE, Secretary   .  Monday, June 16, 2008
                of the Interior, et al.      .  1:37 p.m.
                                             .
                         Defendants.         .

                . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

                           TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL - AFTERNOON SESSION
                             BEFORE THE HONORABLE JAMES ROBERTSON
                                 UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

               APPEARANCES:

               For the Plaintiffs:         DENNIS GINGOLD, ESQ.
                                           Law Offices of Dennis Gingold
                                           607 14th Street, NW
                                           Ninth Floor
                                           Washington, D.C.  20005
                                           202-824-1448

                                           ELLIOTT H. LEVITAS, ESQ.
                                           WILLIAM E. DORRIS, ESQ.
                                           Kilpatrick Stockton, LLP
                                           1100 Peachtree Street
                                           Suite 2800
                                           Atlanta, Georgia  30309-4530
                                           404-815-6450

                                           KEITH HARPER, ESQ.
                                           JUSTIN GUILDER, ESQ.
                                           Kilpatrick Stockton, LLP
                                           607 14th Street, NW
                                           Suite 900
                                           Washington, D.C.  20005
                                           202-585-0053

               APPEARANCES con't. on next page.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            781

               APPEARANCES, con't.

                                           DAVID C. SMITH, ESQ.
                                           DANIEL R. TAYLOR, JR., ESQ.
                                           Kilpatrick Stockton, LLP
                                           1001 West Fourth Street
                                           Winston-Salem, North Carolina  27101
                                           336-607-7392

               For the Defendants:         ROBERT E. KIRSCHMAN, JR., ESQ.
                                           JOHN WARSHAWSKY, ESQ.
                                           J. CHRISTOPHER KOHN, ESQ.
                                           U.S. Department of Justice
                                           1100 L Street, NW
                                           Washington, D.C.  20005
                                           202-307-0010

                                           JOHN T. STEMPLEWICZ, ESQ.
                                           Senior Trial Attorney
                                           JOHN J. SIEMIETKOWSKI, ESQ.
                                           Trial Attorney
                                           U.S. Department of Justice
                                           Commercial Litigation Branch
                                           Civil Division
                                           Ben Franklin Station
                                           P.O. Box 975
                                           Washington, D.C.  20044
                                           202-307-1104
                                           202-514-3368

               Court Reporter:             JACQUELINE M. SULLIVAN, RPR
                                           Official Court Reporter
                                           U.S. Courthouse, Room 6720
                                           333 Constitution Avenue, NW
                                           Washington, D.C. 20001
                                           202-354-3187

               Proceedings reported by machine shorthand, transcript produced
               by computer-aided transcription.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            782

         1                          P R O C E E D I N G S

         2               COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Please come to order and remain

         3     seated.

         4               THE COURT:  Mr. Siemietkowski?

         5               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  Good afternoon, your Honor.

         6               THE COURT:  Good afternoon.

         7               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  The defense calls Ed Angel.

         8               THE COURT:  All right.

         9               COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Do you solemnly swear that the

        10     testimony you should give to the Court in this case now on trial

        11     will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so

        12     help you God?

        13               DR. ANGEL:  I do.

        14               COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

        15               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  A couple of preliminary matters,

        16     your Honor.  Number one, we'd like to alert the Court that Dr.

        17     Angel will be testifying in three different areas.  The three

        18     areas of his testimony are, number one, the availability of

        19     receipts and disbursement records; number two, government

        20     practices and system controls reflected in those records; and

        21     number three, a critique of Plaintiffs' calculation of alleged

        22     benefit to the government.

        23               THE COURT:  Fine.  All right.

        24               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  Next, your Honor, we'd like to

        25     remind the Court that the Court qualified Dr. Angel as an expert

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            783

         1     in October in the history of federal Indian relations and

         2     federal Indian records, and we would like the Court to again

         3     consider him as an expert in those same fields for his testimony

         4     today.

         5               THE COURT:  Without objection I will of course do

         6     that.

         7          EDWARD ANGEL, Ph.D, WITNESS FOR THE DEFENDANTS, SWORN

         8                            DIRECT EXAMINATION

         9     BY MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:

        10     Q.   Dr. Angel, would you please state your full name for the

        11     record?

        12     A.   Yes.  My name is Edward Angel.

        13     Q.   And what is your profession?

        14     A.   I'm a historian.

        15     Q.   Where do you work?

        16     A.   I work at Morgan, Angel & Associates.

        17     Q.   Is that here in Washington?

        18     A.   It's at 1601 Connecticut Avenue, Northwest in Washington,

        19     D.C.

        20     Q.   Dr. Angel, let's turn first to the topic of availability of

        21     receipts and disbursement records.  Do you recall testifying

        22     about that in October?

        23     A.   Yes, I do.

        24     Q.   And what was your conclusion in October concerning the

        25     aggregate receipt and disbursement records for funds in the IIM

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            784

         1     system?

         2     A.   We noted that while there are some aggregate receipt and

         3     disbursement records going back as far as 1909, for the most

         4     part aggregate receipt and disbursement records on IIM weren't

         5     kept.  For the most part these records are more at an individual

         6     level then they are kept maintained at an aggregate level.

         7     Q.   When were they first kept at the aggregate level?

         8     A.   Consistently beginning in about 1998 with the Treasury

         9     Department publication, the consolidated financial statements of

        10     the United States.

        11     Q.   Now, was the IIM system designed to track data more at the

        12     aggregate level or more at the individual level?

        13     A.   As we've done our research over the course of the years in

        14     this case, what we found is that for the most part IIM records

        15     were not kept at the aggregate level.  When we were doing our

        16     research if we were looking for issues related to appropriated

        17     funds, for example, we might find voluminous records concerning

        18     how the money came from Congress to Interior and then worked its

        19     way down to the agency level.  This truly is history from the

        20     bottom up.  These records literally begin at ground level and

        21     work their way up to the individual, and there aren't a lot of

        22     aggregate receipt and disbursement records.

        23     Q.   And Dr. Angel, what have you learned since October about

        24     the availability of aggregate receipt and disbursement

        25     information?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            785

         1     A.   Generally speaking since October my opinion, as I

         2     indicated, remains the same.  There aren't many receipt and

         3     disbursement aggregate records, so saying we did locate some

         4     aggregate receipt and disbursement records, which have limits,

         5     we have located certain documents that give us year-end account

         6     balances and we've located forms, three forms in particular,

         7     that show promise for giving us receipt and disbursement

         8     records, though we couldn't get far in that research.

         9     Q.   And where have you located this additional information?

        10     A.   For the most part the additional information has been

        11     located at the National Archives and they've been located in

        12     different record groups:  Interior, Treasury, congressional

        13     record groups.

        14     Q.   And would you please remind the Court of your testimony in

        15     October regarding in which repositories you've located the data

        16     on receipts and disbursements and year-end account balances?

        17     A.   Over the course of the years we've located them in a number

        18     of places, but for the most part we've located these at National

        19     Archives, both locally and at regional branches, we've located

        20     them at Department of Interior library, Treasury department

        21     library, different repositories.

        22     Q.   What have you done with the additional information you've

        23     located since October, Dr. Angel?

        24     A.   With the additional information that we've located we've

        25     updated our IIM chart that we introduced back in October and

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            786

         1     we've given information to both FTI, Ms. Herman, and to NORC,

         2     Dr. Scheuren.

         3     Q.   Now, Dr. Angel, you mentioned your total IIM chart.  Do you

         4     recall DX 94, your total IIM chart which was admitted into

         5     evidence in October?

         6     A.   I do.

         7     Q.   And have you updated that since?

         8     A.   Yes, we have subsequently updated it with the additional

         9     information that we've located.

        10     Q.   Dr. Angel, at this time I'd like to show you on your screen

        11     what's been marked as DX 483.  Do you recognize that, Dr. Angel?

        12     A.   Yes.  That's our updated version of our total value of IIM

        13     system funds chart.

        14     Q.   And what does this chart represent, Dr. Angel?

        15     A.   This chart represents known data points between 1908 and

        16     1985, and it contains information about receipts, disbursements,

        17     IIM system funds in banks, whatever component parts we can get,

        18     and year-end account balance information.

        19     Q.   I'll ask Matthew to slowly cursor through the different

        20     pages of the chart and ask you, Dr. Angel, do any particular

        21     portions of the chart reflect any historical trends?

        22     A.   Matthew, would you slide back one, please?

        23               Certainly one of the trends that we can see is the end

        24     of the Depression on year-end account balances and on the

        25     receipt and disbursement element of the IIM chart.  We can

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            787

         1     see -- please, forward one, please.  Thank you.  We can

         2     certainly see increases following World War II and better

         3     economic times.  And please, one more.  We can see increases,

         4     particularly during the energy crisis years when Indian oil and

         5     gas revenues grew so greatly, and I'm talking about the period

         6     particularly, and you can see it on the chart, 1977 forward, so

         7     historical trends are reflected in the chart.

         8     Q.   Now, Dr. Angel, the additional documents you've located to

         9     use to update this chart, have you received any of those

        10     documents from government attorneys?

        11     A.   None.

        12     Q.   All the other documents that went into the original genesis

        13     of the chart, did you receive any of those documents from

        14     government attorneys?

        15     A.   None.

        16     Q.   And Dr. Angel, again to refresh the Court's recollection

        17     regarding what you said in October, why does the chart stop in

        18     1985?

        19     A.   We were asked to stop the chart in 1985 because FTI would

        20     pick up with the so-called electronic era beginning in 1985.

        21     Q.   At this point, Dr. Angel, I'd like you to explain to the

        22     Court, please, wha is new on the chart since October.

        23     A.   What's new on the chart since October are two particular

        24     elements.  One is we located some very limited receipt and

        25     disbursement data for the period 1922 to 1949.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            788

         1     Q.   I'll ask Matthew to cursor back to that page, please.

         2               I'm sorry to interrupt you, Dr. Angel.

         3     A.   We located receipt and disbursement information for the

         4     period 1922 to 1949.  There was no report for 1945.  And we

         5     located year-end account balance information for the period 1930

         6     to 1944.

         7     Q.   Now, Dr. Angel, looking at the far right column, DX source

         8     document number, what does that represent?

         9     A.   Those of course represent the exhibits that we've used.

        10     Any exhibit in the 300 series to 400 represents a more complete

        11     version of exhibits that we introduced back in October.  That

        12     would be such information as annual reports, the commissioner of

        13     Indian Affairs congressional hearings and investment reports.

        14     Any DX number beginning 402 or higher is a new document, and

        15     those would be such documents as the receipt and disbursement

        16     data and the Indian service, special disbursing agent year-end

        17     account balance data.

        18     Q.   Now, at first glance, Dr. Angel, it doesn't seem like there

        19     is a great deal of new information on the chart.  Can you please

        20     explain to the Court what you've been doing since October?

        21     A.   Well, of course like everyone, we didn't learn of the trial

        22     schedule until March 5th.  At that point we engaged heavily in

        23     trying to locate archival records that might give us aggregate

        24     receipt and disbursement records.  At that time we located these

        25     1922 to 1949 receipt and disbursement records and the ISSDA

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            789

         1     reports, the Indian service special disbursing agent annual

         2     reports.

         3     Q.   And in your opinion, Dr. Angel, were you not able to locate

         4     more between October and the current trial?

         5     A.   Well, once again, as I said at the beginning, is we've gone

         6     through records at Archives, as we've gone through published

         7     historical source what we're seeing is that typically if they're

         8     going to be aggregate reports, full reports, they come from

         9     appropriated funds and work their way down.  Really there's very

        10     little that starts at the lease level at the ground level and

        11     works its way back up.

        12     Q.   Dr. Angel, can you describe by category the new source

        13     documents you have discovered since October?

        14     A.   Sure.  We located Indian service special disbursing agent

        15     reports for the period 1930 to 1944 and receipt and disbursement

        16     reports for the period 1922 to 1949, as I said, minus 1945.

        17     Q.   The Indian special, the ISSDA reports for 1930 and 1944,

        18     what were they, Dr. Angel?

        19     A.   These were reports that were sent to the Treasury

        20     department at the request of the Treasury department.  They show

        21     year-end account balances and these year-end account balances

        22     are broken down into four distinct segments.

        23     Q.   And who do the special disbursing agents submit those year-

        24     end account balances to?

        25     A.   They were submitted to the Interior department, which

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            790

         1     compiled these ISSDA reports for the Treasury department.

         2     Q.   And you also mentioned a separate category, the receipts

         3     and disbursements records, Dr. Angel?

         4     A.   That's correct.

         5     Q.   What were those?

         6     A.   In July of 1906 -- excuse me.  On June 30th, 1906, Congress

         7     passed a Sundry Civil Appropriations Act.  Section five of this

         8     act called on all branches of the federal government, all

         9     executive departments, to send to the Treasury department any

        10     receipt and disbursement information concerning money that did

        11     not enter the general Treasury of the United States.

        12     Q.   How long do these reports last?

        13     A.   They began -- as near as we can tell they begin in 1922.

        14     In 1921 the president issued an executive order that listed many

        15     reports that should be submitted annually and these section five

        16     of the act of June 30 of 1906 report were among the reports

        17     listed and they end in 1950 as a result of the Budget and

        18     Accounting Act of 1950.

        19     Q.   At this time, Dr. Angel, on your screen I'm going to show

        20     you DX 27, which was admitted in October, specifically pages

        21     seven through nine.  Do you recognize this, Dr. Angel?

        22     A.   Yes.  This is one of the receipt and disbursement reports

        23     that we were able to locate prior to the October trial.

        24     Q.   All right.  If you could, I'd ask Matthew to go to the

        25     first page.  And then if you would just talk your way and

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            791

         1     explain to the Court what's represented on these pages, Dr.

         2     Angel.

         3     A.   Okay.  The first page is from the secretary of the Treasury

         4     to the speaker of the United States house of representatives.

         5     It states, of course, that it's in compliance with the act of

         6     June 30th, 1906, and he's transmitting -- and he's transmitting

         7     reports relating to monies not paid into the general fund of the

         8     United States Treasury.  And also disbursements that were

         9     made -- that were not disbursed from the general fund of the

        10     United States Treasury.

        11     Q.   And looking on the subsequent pages, Dr. Angel, what do

        12     they represent?

        13     A.   The subsequent page is a letter from the assistant

        14     secretary of the Interior to the secretary of the Treasury

        15     noting that in compliance with this act, Interior is

        16     transmitting statements in accordance with the act of June 30th,

        17     1906.

        18     Q.   And then the third page in that series, Dr. Angel?

        19     A.   The third page highlighted, you can see individual Indian

        20     monies received and disbursed for fiscal year 1933 without being

        21     paid into the general Treasury of the United States.

        22     Q.   Thank you.  And I'll ask that that be removed from your

        23     screen at this time.

        24               And Dr. Angel, knowing the relatively limited amount

        25     of new information you've added since October, what then in your

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            792

         1     opinion is the relevance of your total IIM chart for this

         2     particular remedies trial?

         3     A.   Well, it's multiple.  First of all, we were able to gather

         4     some receipt and disbursement information, but the receipt and

         5     disbursement information we were able to gather clearly is

         6     limited.  It's limited in the number of years that it's

         7     presented and certainly it's limited in the scope of what's

         8     presented.  This is not all receipts and all disbursements.  It

         9     gave us an additional number to work with.  I certainly hoped,

        10     as I added it to the IIM table, that it would be beneficial to

        11     statisticians and modlers as long as they understood the

        12     limitations of the data.

        13     Q.   Now, what if you had unlimited additional time and

        14     unlimited additional resources, Dr. Angel?

        15     A.   If we had unlimited additional time and unlimited

        16     additional resources, I think there is a chance, a good chance,

        17     that we could find additional receipt and disbursement data, but

        18     if we had additional time the one thing I would like very, very

        19     much to have done was to present the report with a more -- the

        20     Court, I should say, with a more full understanding of what

        21     exactly these receipt and disbursement reports from '22 to '49

        22     encompassed.

        23     Q.   Now, you just mentioned some of the limitations of the new

        24     data.  Did you convey any of these limitations to anyone?

        25     A.   Oh, definitely.  I conveyed them to both FTI and to NORC.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            793

         1     We had lengthy discussions about this and they certainly were

         2     clear in my mind about the limitations of the data that I

         3     presented, that this was not neither complete receipts nor did

         4     it represent complete disbursements.

         5     Q.   So just to be clear for the Court, then, Dr. Angel, all the

         6     research you've done, which are the only years that you have

         7     found complete aggregate receipt and disbursement data?

         8     A.   We found them in commissioner's report, commissioner of

         9     Indian Affairs reports for 1909, 1910, 1911, and we find a diggg

        10     for 1955 in the GAO report of that year.

        11     Q.   Now I'll ask you be shown DX 32 at this point, page seven,

        12     on your screen.  Do you recognize that cover page, Dr. Angel?

        13     A.   I do.  It's the annual report for the commissioner of

        14     Indian Affairs, is contained within the reports of the

        15     Department of the Interior for a fiscal year-ended June 30th,

        16     1909.

        17     Q.   And I'll ask Matthew to go to page seven, please, and to

        18     enlarge the highlighted section.  Would you please explain to

        19     the Court, Dr. Angel, what this represents and how you used it

        20     for your chart?

        21     A.   This represents total receipts, total disbursements, and

        22     year-end account balances for the year, or the year-end account

        23     balance for the year.  You'll notice that on receipts we have

        24     such information as interest, we have monies received from

        25     leasing in bonded banks; things like that.  In disbursements we

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            794

         1     have paid direct to Indians by disbursing officers and returned

         2     to unsuccessful bidders, checks drawn by Indians on bank

         3     accounts, and then, as I said, we've got a total balance figure.

         4     Q.   Are the 1910 and 1911 reports similar to this one, Dr.

         5     Angel?

         6     A.   That's correct, that's correct, they are.

         7     Q.   I'd like to now show you, Dr. Angel, DX 63.  What is this,

         8     if you recognize it, please?

         9     A.   This is the report by the General Accounting Office to

        10     Congress.  It's an audit report regarding the administration of

        11     the individual Indian monies by the BIA.  The report date is

        12     November of '55 but it was submitted to Congress in 1956.

        13     Q.   I'll ask that you now be shown page six of it.  And if

        14     Matthew could enlarge the highlighted portion, please.

        15               What is this, Dr. Angel?  How did you use this for

        16     your chart?

        17     A.   The highlighted portion shows receipts and disbursements

        18     for IIM accounts for fiscal year 1955, and we added that to the

        19     report, and there are the receipt and disbursement categories,

        20     along with taking the year-end balance from this report.

        21     Q.   Now I ask that that be removed from your screen at this

        22     time.  And let me ask you, Dr. Angel, of the sources we've

        23     discussed, how many came from publicly available repositories or

        24     publicly accessible repositories?

        25     A.   The information that comprises the total, the IIM chart,

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            795

         1     all but seven documents came from either National Archives, a

         2     library, a publicly-accessible report.  Seven of the reports are

         3     Bureau of Indian Affairs annual investment reports, and we

         4     gathered those at the American Indian records repository.

         5     Q.   Is the ERR publicly accessible?

         6     A.   Yes.

         7     Q.   Do you know whether any attorneys ever visited the ERR?

         8     A.   Yes.  We have worked with tribal attorneys.  In fact, on

         9     one case, in a tribal trust case where we engaged in a

        10     collective document-gathering project.  Now, so saying, I should

        11     add that you need permission to go to ERR.  You have to request

        12     permission from the Office of Trust Records.  But typically it's

        13     given and it's given without too much problem.

        14     Q.   Now, moving away a bit from the documents sourced for your

        15     total IIM chart, what other documents have you located that

        16     might bear on receipts, disbursements, and year-end account

        17     balances for the IIM system?

        18     A.   In the course of our research we located three forums that

        19     looked to us like potentially they could be of great value to

        20     determining receipts, disbursements, and year-end account

        21     balances.  One of the documents is called the Statement of

        22     Funded Checking Accounts, and it's standard form 1189.

        23     Q.   Let me show you DX 488 at this time, Dr. Angel.  And ask

        24     that that be enlarged a bit so it can be better seen by the

        25     Court and by the witness.  What is this, Dr. Angel?

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                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            796

         1     A.   This is an example of one of the statement of funded

         2     checking accounts that we located.  This particular form is

         3     dated in 1960, although we think the forms go back to the early

         4     '50s.  These forms were filled out by the Indian service special

         5     disbursing agent and it contains information regarding beginning

         6     balance of IIM, receipts into the system, disbursements from the

         7     system, and then the ending balance for the month.  At this

         8     point in history there are about twelve Indian service special

         9     disbursing agents.  They were represented by the area offices,

        10     so in other words, it's no longer agency-by-agency basis, no

        11     longer talking about a hundred reports a month, but

        12     approximately twelve.  The number of area offices shifts over

        13     the years.

        14     Q.   And so how often did the ISSDA submit these reports?

        15     A.   These reports were submitted monthly.

        16     Q.   And who were they submitted to?

        17     A.   They were submitted to the Treasury department.

        18     Q.   Dr. Angel, let me next show you DX 489 on your screen and

        19     ask once again that it be enlarged, if you recognize this and

        20     how so.

        21     A.   This is the standard form 1219, a so-called statement of

        22     accountability.  At some point during the 19 -- early 1960s

        23     these forms appear to have replaced the statement of funded

        24     checking accounts that I just discussed a moment ago.  Like the

        25     statement of funded checking accounts, these show receipts

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                                                                            797

         1     beginning balance for IIM, receipts and disbursements into and

         2     out of the system, and then month-end balance for IIM.

         3     Q.   And was it the twelve ISSDAs that were submitting these,

         4     Dr. Angel?

         5     A.   For a while it was the twelve ISSDAs who submitted these,

         6     and then by 1966 or 1967 it was a single ISSDA located in

         7     Albuquerque, and so these reports would go from twelve a month

         8     to one a month.

         9     Q.   And again, how often, once a month?

        10     A.   Once a month.

        11     Q.   And submitted to whom?

        12     A.   Submitted to the Treasury department.

        13     Q.   Finally in this series, Dr. Angel, let me show you what's

        14     been marked Defense Exhibit 490 and ask you to look specifically

        15     at page nine, which is the last page in this particular series.

        16     Once enlarged could you please identify that for the Court if

        17     you recognize it?

        18     A.   Certainly.  This is a standard form 1220, a statement of

        19     transactions.  And these forms contain supporting detail on

        20     individual Indian monies, so it would have been submitted

        21     traditionally with the statements of account balance and would

        22     contain supporting detail.

        23     Q.   And who would have submitted them?

        24     A.   Oh, I'm sorry.  The Indian service special disbursing agent

        25     would have submitted them.  At this point I believe I know --

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            798

         1     this is going back to the very first page -- that it was John

         2     Veil who was the ISSDA during this period.

         3     Q.   And how often were they submitted?

         4     A.   Once a month.

         5     Q.   And again, to whom?

         6     A.   To the Treasury Department.

         7     Q.   Thank you.  I'll ask that that be removed from your screen

         8     now.

         9               Though we've mentioned it briefly, Dr. Angel, let's

        10     talk a little bit more about what assistance you provided to FTI

        11     and to NORC.  Could you please describe for the Court in general

        12     terms what you've done with those two organizations?

        13     A.   We've worked with those two organizations to supply them

        14     with two things.  First of all, any documentation that they

        15     wanted from our IIM table which might include annual investment

        16     reports, General Accounting Office audit reports, the various

        17     sources that go into making up the IIM table.  We also tried to

        18     work with them to make sure that they understood the limitations

        19     of the data itself.  For example, the limitation of the

        20     limitations of those receipt and disbursement reports that we've

        21     discussed.

        22     Q.   And for what years were those again, Dr. Angel?

        23     A.   1922 to 1949.

        24     Q.   Now aside from providing historical documents and

        25     historical context to FTI and NORC, did you provide those

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            799

         1     organizations anything in addition?  Did you do any work with

         2     FTI at all on any estimates?

         3     A.   Okay.  With FTI we supplied estimates concerning tribal,

         4     individual Indian monies, and we assisted them in locating Osage

         5     records for their Osage chart.

         6     Q.   And for what years did you provide estimates of tribal IIM

         7     to FTI?

         8     A.   Period 1934 to 1985.

         9     Q.   Now, Dr. Angel, are you familiar with FTI's concept of

        10     buckets?

        11     A.   Yes, I am.

        12     Q.   And what does that refer to?

        13     A.   FTI's concept of buckets include money that entered the IIM

        14     system but were not disbursed to or but did not go to IIM

        15     accountholders.

        16     Q.   Now, let me show you now DX 32, Dr. Angel, something that

        17     was admitted in October.  Do you recognize the cover of that

        18     document?

        19     A.   Yes.  It's the Annual Report For the Commissioner of Indian

        20     Affairs for the year ended June 30th, 1909.

        21     Q.   And I'll ask that you be shown page seven specifically, and

        22     if we can highlight or I should say enlarge the highlighted

        23     portion, and please explain for the Court if you can, Dr. Angel,

        24     what buckets, if any, are evident in this particular

        25     highlighting.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            800

         1     A.   In this particular highlighting we notice on the

         2     disbursement side monies paid direct to Indians by disbursing

         3     officers and returned to unsuccessful bidders.

         4     Q.   Now, under Receipts, Dr. Angel, do you see the line that

         5     says "On hand July 1st, 1908"?

         6     A.   I do.

         7     Q.   Would you please read the second sentence out loud

         8     underneath that?

         9     A.   This concerns money in bonded banks to the credit of

        10     individual Indians, and it's $3,108,625.94.

        11     Q.   Let me next show you, Dr. Angel, DX 33, another exhibit

        12     admitted in October.  Do you recognize this?

        13     A.   Yes.  This is the Annual Report of the Commissioner of

        14     Indian Affairs for the fiscal year ended June 30, 1910.

        15     Q.   I'll ask that we go to page two on this exhibit, please.

        16     Can you see that or do you need that enlarged, Dr. Angel?

        17     A.   It would be great to have it enlarged, please.

        18     Q.   All right.  Now, are you able to explain for the Court

        19     what, if any, buckets are evident on this page of this

        20     particular CIA report?

        21     A.   On the receipt side we see bids on allotments, bid on

        22     timber allotments, and those are two things that I think would

        23     fit into Ms. Herman's buckets.  Subsequently the winning bid --

        24     some of the bids would be returned, some would remain in the

        25     system.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            801

         1     Q.   Now, I'll ask that Matthew now show the right side of that

         2     screen at the top portion which was highlighted in yellow.  What

         3     does this show as opposed to what you just explained for the

         4     Court?

         5     A.   On the disbursement side you'll see return to unsuccessful

         6     bidders, two million seven hundred twenty thousand plus.

         7     Q.   Thank you, Dr. Angel.  I now ask that you be shown DX 485.

         8     What is this, if you recognize it, Dr. Angel?

         9     A.   This is an audit report conducted by the Bureau of Indian

        10     Affairs division of audits, or I should say the Department of

        11     Interior division of investigations.  We gathered this report

        12     from the National Archives downtown from records of the Bureau

        13     of Indian Affairs.  The report is dated February 10, 1940, and

        14     it's an audit of individual Indian monies at the Winnebago

        15     agency.

        16     Q.   Dr. Angel, as Matthew enlarges this and cursors through the

        17     pages slowly, I'd like you to identify, if possible, any of

        18     those buckets for the Court.

        19     A.   Okay.  Please go down.  At the bottom of page two you'll

        20     note the tribal funds with deposit with the superintendent

        21     consisted of the following balances, and it gives the three

        22     reservations under the Winnebago agency, the tribal funds for

        23     each, and you'll notice that the last sentence at the bottom

        24     begins all tribal funds are taken up on official receipts and

        25     deposited to the credit of the tribes and individual Indian

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            802

         1     money.

         2               Please continue down.

         3               Next there is description of money in the revolving

         4     credit funds that were on deposit as of December 30th, 1939.

         5     You'll see that that totals $12,644.40.

         6     Q.   What's the sentence immediately following that $12,000

         7     figure?

         8     A.   The revolving fund accounts were also handled through

         9     individual Indian monies.

        10     Q.   What about the bottom paragraph on that screen, Dr. Angel,

        11     what does that refer to?

        12     A.   Once again we see a third category.  The rehabilitation

        13     trust funds are handled through individual Indian money, and

        14     this accounts for the balances in those particular funds for the

        15     various agencies -- for the various reservations.  Excuse me.

        16     Pardon me.

        17     Q.   While you're getting yourself a drink of water, Dr. Angel,

        18     let me ask that you be now shown DX 487.

        19               I'm sorry, your Honor.  I meant to ask for DX 486.

        20               Can you identify this for the Court, please, Dr.

        21     Angel?

        22     A.   Yes.  This is another audit of individual Indian monies,

        23     again for the Winnebago agency.  It's dated August 16th, 1941,

        24     and it's submitted to the commissioner of Indian Affairs.

        25     Q.   And again I ask you, once enlarged, to cursor through this

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            803

         1     and please identify for the Court any of the buckets that may

         2     not be pure IIM.

         3     A.   This is, as we indicated, an audit of the individual Indian

         4     money accounts, the Winnebago agency.  You'll notice that at the

         5     beginning of the third paragraph it states, The balance of

         6     individual Indian money on hand as of May 30th, 1941 was

         7     $71,358.37.  It's then further broken down to credit funds,

         8     travel funds, cemetary funds, and you'll notice that the amount

         9     to individual Indians, the amount to individual Indian account-

        10     holders is $40,069.43 of the total of $71,358.37.

        11     Q.   I'll ask that Matthew cursor down through that document,

        12     please.  Now, at the top of that page is something called

        13     cemetary funds.  Any idea what that refers to, Dr. Angel?

        14     A.   Yes.  I had read about these in the different documents,

        15     but it was a tribal cemetary.  This is a fund that's created to

        16     care for an agency cemetary.

        17     Q.   And again, where were those funds maintained?

        18     A.   This were maintained in the individual Indian monies.

        19     Q.   What about the last sentence on your screen beginning with

        20     "the student activity"?  What does that refer to, if you know?

        21     A.   Could you cursor down, please?

        22               This is a student activity fund, which was part of the

        23     individual Indian monies.

        24     Q.   And what does that sentence just after the 660 figure

        25     state?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            804

         1     A.   The revenue is from picture shows, dances, school parties,

         2     etcetera.  Payments from the fund are initiated by student

         3     officers of various groups, approved by group sponsors, and

         4     further approved by the school principal.

         5     Q.   And again, where would these funds have been kept?

         6     A.   Individual Indian monies.

         7     Q.   Thank you.

         8     A.   This is an audit of individual Indian monies at the agency.

         9     Q.   I now ask that you be shown DX 487.  What is this, if you

        10     recognize it?

        11     A.   This is another audit of individual Indian monies.  It's

        12     conducted by the Department of Interior director of

        13     investigations and it's submitted to the commissioner of Indian

        14     Affairs, dated May 16, 1940.

        15     Q.   Again I will ask Matthew to cursor through this document

        16     and ask you, Dr. Angel, to please identify the buckets for the

        17     Court.

        18     A.   This is a fairly interesting one.  It shows IIM on hand

        19     March 31st, 1940, aggregated $188,794.02, and it's spelled out,

        20     it's broken out into the various component parts.

        21               Please cursor down.  Please go down just a bit more,

        22     Matthew.  There we go.

        23               The semi-annual reports -- I'm reading now from the

        24     last paragraph, semi-annual reports for the calendar year 1939

        25     show receipts aggregating $157,944 and disbursements amounting

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            805

         1     to $152,872.69.  The principal sources of income were indicated

         2     as follows:  Rehabilitation and revolving funds, and these are

         3     typically tribal enterprise funds.

         4     Q.   Thank you, Dr. Angel.  I'll ask that that be removed from

         5     your screen now.  Now, Dr. Angel, having discussed these

         6     examples, as a historian what is your opinion regarding what

         7     these buckets show regarding the IIM system?

         8     A.   In my opinion as a historian, I think it shows that monies

         9     went into the IIM system that did not go to the individual

        10     Indian accountholder.

        11               THE COURT:  Actually, would you put that last exhibit

        12     on the screen again?

        13               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  DX 487, Matthew.  It was either

        14     the last page or next-to-last page.

        15               THE COURT:  Dr. Angel, CCC wages deposit, is that what

        16     I think it means?

        17               THE WITNESS:  There was a civilian conservation core

        18     Indian division that was separate from the regular CCC.

        19               THE COURT:  And those were wages identified for

        20     individual Indians that were paid to the Indians and paid

        21     through the IIM accounts?

        22               THE WITNESS:  Your Honor, I can't say that exactly.

        23     Whether they were -- it would appear to be that the CCC wages

        24     were deposited into the IIM accounts.

        25               THE COURT:  Not even a new deal trusted the Indians,

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            806

         1     huh?  They were trustee for their wages.  That's quite

         2     interesting, actually.  I don't know what bearing it has on

         3     here.

         4               THE WITNESS:  Quite often of course the CCC workers

         5     were younger folks.

         6               THE COURT:  Yes.

         7               THE WITNESS:  So, you know, I cannot speak to this

         8     obviously directly, but it could be.  It's possible that they

         9     were young -- they hadn't reached -- some of them hadn't reached

        10     their majority.  I don't know that to be a fact, though.

        11               THE COURT:  Okay.

        12     BY MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:

        13     Q.   Dr. Angel, having discussed the availability of receipts

        14     and disbursement data, let's now move to the second general area

        15     of your testimony, and that is, government practices and system

        16     controls reflected in the historical records.  Do you recall

        17     testifying a bit in October about settlement packages?

        18     A.   I do.

        19     Q.   Briefly would you please refresh the Court in terms of what

        20     these were?

        21     A.   These were packages that were submitted by Indian service

        22     special disbursing agents to the General Accounting Office for

        23     examination and review.

        24     Q.   And was GAO the first organization to conduct this process?

        25     A.   The process started for all disbursement agents, not simply

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            807

         1     ISSDA, but all disbursing agents relatively early in the 19th

         2     century.  It was conducted by the Treasury department.  The

         3     Treasury handled this function until the creation of the General

         4     Accounting Office.

         5     Q.   And when did the General Accounting Office take it over?

         6     A.   The General Accounting Office took this function over

         7     subsequent to the Budget and Accounting Act of 1921, and in

         8     fact, that branch of Treasury that conducted the audits simply

         9     moved over to the General Accounting Office.

        10     Q.   And how long did GAO perform this function?

        11     A.   GAO performed this function from 1921 to 1951.

        12     Q.   Dr. Angel, what kind of review had you conducted of the

        13     settlement packages?

        14     A.   Well, my review of the settlement packages is more of a

        15     historian obviously.  Obviously I'm not an auditor or an

        16     accountant.  My primary interest was to see what kind of

        17     documentation was in those packages and maybe to make a

        18     historian's determination of what level of review was conducted

        19     by the GAO of the ISSDA packages.

        20     Q.   Now, how thick are these packages?

        21     A.   Well, they can vary.  Some of them are fairly summary, but

        22     I've seen them well in excess of three thousand pages.

        23               THE COURT:  Fourteen hundred feet, he told us the last

        24     time.

        25               THE WITNESS:  That's correct.  I'm sorry, your Honor.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            808

         1     I was speaking to --

         2               THE COURT:  No, I understand.

         3     BY MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:

         4     Q.   Dr. Angel, before focusing on any government system

         5     controls that may be evident in the settlement packages, do you

         6     have an opinion about the packages' utility in terms of an

         7     aggregation of receipts and disbursement data?

         8     A.   In my opinion, after looking at many of these settled

         9     account packages, they would provide the basis for total

        10     receipts and total disbursements on an agency-by-agency basis

        11     and quarterly to semi-annual basis.

        12     Q.   By region?

        13     A.   By agency.

        14     Q.   By agency.

        15     A.   It's an agency by agency, yes.

        16     Q.   Dr. Angel, at this time I'm going to show you on your

        17     screen DX 256, specifically page one.  What is this, if you

        18     recognize it, please?

        19     A.   This is the annual report from comptroller general for the

        20     United States, fiscal year ended June 30th, 1939.

        21     Q.   I'll ask Matthew to show you now page two on the screen and

        22     to enlarge the highlighted portion, please.

        23     A.   This is forwarded.  It's written by the comptroller

        24     general, and he explains one of the purposes of this report.  He

        25     knows that the preceeding year, 1939, the annual report was not

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            809

         1     published, but one of the things it showed was the work of audit

         2     and settlement of accounts and claims, including showing in some

         3     detail of the many questions and probably which arise from in

         4     connection with these because --

         5               MR. SMITH:  If I may raise an objection at this point.

         6     We have a summary judgment decision saying GAO did not audit

         7     these settlement of accounts.  I would object to the testimony

         8     that contradicts the existing opinion from Judge Lamberth on

         9     that point.

        10               THE COURT:  We're not going to contradict Judge

        11     Lamberth, but I'll hear the testimony.  The objection is

        12     overruled.

        13     BY MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:

        14     Q.   Before we move on to the next page, let me ask you next,

        15     Dr. Angel, whether this limited process was limited to Indian

        16     funds.

        17     A.   No, it was not limited simply to Indian funds.  It was all

        18     disbursing agents of the United States government.

        19     Q.   Looking next to page 14 of DX 256, once enlarged, what does

        20     this highlighted portion show?

        21     A.   A portion of the comptroller general's report.  It goes

        22     through the audit process generally, and a portion of it then

        23     goes to the issue of individual Indian monies.  And regarding

        24     individual Indian monies, it says these accounts embrace an

        25     accounting by agents of the Indian service for providing funds

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            810

         1     of individual Indians received and disbursed.  The audit

         2     consists after determination as to compliance with the laws,

         3     regulations, and decisions governing the expenditure of Indian

         4     monies.  The complete accounting embraces both collections and

         5     disbursements for the account of the individual Indian, the

         6     decisions for application.  Those are the former comptroller of

         7     the Treasury, the comptroller general, the Secretary of the

         8     Interior, and the courts.

         9     Q.   Let's move next, Dr. Angel, to DX 246.  Well, before we

        10     move, specifically do you recognize this document from your

        11     collection?

        12     A.   Yes.  This is one of the settled account packages that I

        13     introduced during my testimony in the October trial.

        14     Q.   And how thick was this one?

        15     A.   This one actually was over three thousand pages.  It's

        16     divided into two PDFs, 246 and 247.

        17     Q.   Let's look then at pages 57 through 63 initially, and once

        18     enlarged, as Matthew enlarges these and cursors through them

        19     slowly, I'd like you to please explain what significance, if

        20     any, from a historical viewpoint these pages show.

        21     A.   Sure.  May I go to the last page that you mentioned?  I

        22     believe it's 63.

        23     Q.   63.

        24     A.   This is a letter from J.E. Fisner, chief clerk accounting

        25     section.

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                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            811

         1               Please, Matthew, back to the first now.

         2               And it's to W.O. Roberts, superintendent and special

         3     disbursing agent of the Pineridge Agency.

         4     Q.   What does this indicate, what's the letter about, if you

         5     can tell?

         6     A.   In this letter the GAO official says audit of individual

         7     Indian monies, vouchers, number 21 and 22, discovered some

         8     problems and the GAO official.  Goes on to note what the

         9     problems were.

        10               For example, in the first part he talks about checks

        11     to individual Indians, listing check number, date of the check,

        12     the account of the individual Indian, and the amount, that

        13     lacked specific authorities for disbursing.

        14               Could you scroll down, please?  Thanks.

        15               And these are the checks that he's questioning

        16     specifically.

        17     Q.   Let me turn your attention next then to page four of the

        18     document, Dr. Angel.  What does this page represent?

        19     A.   This is Superintendent Roberts' response to the General

        20     Accounting Office.  He states, This is in reply to your letter

        21     of May 17, 1945 relative to the audit of my individual Indian

        22     monies, voucher 21 and voucher 22.  Here you see he's added the

        23     citations of authority that the GAO official requested, and he

        24     goes on later in this letter to address other issues that the

        25     GAO raised by his individual Indian monies accounts.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            812

         1     Q.   I'll ask Matthew next to show you pages 51 through 56,

         2     please.  Please explain for Court as Matthew cursors slowly

         3     there what these pages represent.

         4     A.   These are specific issues that were related to the GAO's

         5     question about -- excuse me.  Could we go to the first page of

         6     that document, please?  I'm sorry.

         7     Q.   Page 351?

         8     A.   Please.

         9     Q.   Can you enlarge it please, Matthew?

        10     A.   No, I'm sorry.  I'm talking about the very first page of

        11     the letter.

        12     Q.   Okay.  Page 57, would that be?

        13     A.   I believe so.

        14               Okay.  This is part of the GAO's letter to

        15     Superintendent Roberts.  I'm sorry.  I got confused for a moment

        16     about whether this was the response from Roberts to the GAO.

        17     But this is the letter from GAO to Roberts.  Now please go

        18     ahead.  I'm sorry.

        19     Q.   Now, if we go back, Matthew, to 51 through 56, and again,

        20     what does this represent, Dr. Angel?

        21     A.   These are issues that the GAO had with the settled account

        22     package involving individual Indian monies.

        23     Q.   What does the first paragraph describe?

        24     A.   In regard to the cancelled official receipts, or official

        25     receipt number?  These effectively address the complaints of the

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            813

         1     GAO on a point-by-point basis and explain what's been done.  For

         2     example, with the first one there was a question about a dollar.

         3     This amount was redeposited by currency, one dollar, March 9,

         4     1942.  It gives a receipt number, and there's a tick mark by it.

         5     Q.   Thank you, Dr. Angel.  I'll ask that that be removed from

         6     your screen, and ask you generally how many agencies produce

         7     these settlement packages?

         8     A.   Roughly speaking, at this time there were a hundred

         9     agencies in the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

        10     Q.   And how often did these agencies produce these packages?

        11     A.   It varied by time period.  Quarterly to semi-annual, at

        12     least for the settled account packages.  They submitted other

        13     financial records more routinely, but by the GAO period, I

        14     believe after 1927 for the most part the GAO addresses IIM semi-

        15     annually.

        16     Q.   Can you evaluate this information as an accountant?

        17     A.   No certainly.

        18     Q.   Can you evaluate as a statician?

        19     A.   No.

        20     Q.   What about as an attorney?

        21     A.   Definitely not.

        22     Q.   So what do these packages tell you, if anything, Dr. Angel,

        23     as a historian?

        24     A.   These packages tell me as a historian that a second agency,

        25     the General Accounting Office, was conducting a fairly extensive

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            814

         1     examination of individual Indian monies on a very check-oriented

         2     basis.  In other words, down at the check level they're

         3     examining receipts and disbursements, and there's a lengthy

         4     exchange between the Indian agent, the ISSDA, and the case of

         5     what we just saw Superintendent Roberts and the GAO official

         6     actually doing the audit.

         7     Q.   So what does that tell you about government practices at

         8     that time regarding collections into and disbursements from the

         9     IIM system?

        10     A.   As a historian looking at these packages it tells me that

        11     there was government oversight.

        12     Q.   Now, as a historian, what do these records tell you

        13     regarding the reliability of the data in them?

        14     A.   As a historian I feel a lot more comfortable knowing that

        15     one agency has produced records and another agency has reviewed

        16     those records at a very high level.

        17     Q.   As a historian, what do the system controls lead to

        18     conclude, if anything, regarding the possibility of funds

        19     leaking out of the IIM system undetected?

        20     A.   Again, all I can say is that there's a good level of

        21     oversight involved in this process, and I think it's shown as

        22     you look at the various settled account packages.

        23     Q.   And likewise, Dr. Angel, as a historian what do the system

        24     controls tell you, if anything, regarding the positive funds

        25     accumulating unnoticed in the IIM system?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            815

         1               MR. SMITH:  Objection.  I'm not sure a historian is

         2     qualified to make that determination.  He's not an accountant.

         3               THE COURT:  That one I'm going to sustain.

         4     BY MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:

         5     Q.   Dr. Angel, aside from the settlement packages, are there

         6     other examples of oversight in Interior administration of IIM?

         7     A.   Yes, there are.  The ISSDA reports, those year-end account

         8     balance reports that we discussed earlier, were submitted to the

         9     Treasury department for review, and of course the receipt and

        10     disbursement reports that we discussed under the act of June

        11     30th, 1906 were submitted first to Treasury for review and then

        12     to the United States Congress.

        13     Q.   Now, having discussed, Dr. Angel, the availability of

        14     receipts and disbursement data, and having discussed any

        15     government system controls reflected in that data, let's move

        16     now to discussion of Plaintiffs' calculation of alleged benefit

        17     to the government.  First of all, have you reviewed and analyzed

        18     Plaintiffs' March 19 remedies brief, including its attachments?

        19     A.   I have.

        20     Q.   Have you reviewed and analyzed Plaintiffs' April 22 reply

        21     brief?

        22     A.   I have.

        23     Q.   Generally speaking, what can you tell us about historical

        24     factors that would impact any calculation of alleged benefit to

        25     the government?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            816

         1     A.   There are several things that struck me as I went through

         2     those reports, as I went through Plaintiffs' calculations.  One

         3     thing concerned the very slow process of allotment.  For

         4     example, allotment began actually about at the time of the Dos

         5     Act.  There were over five hundred thousand acres already

         6     allotted, but by 1910 there were only about 14,600,000 acres

         7     allotted under the Dos Act, so a total of a little more than 15

         8     million acres had been allotted by that time.

         9     Q.   Out of how many that were ultimately allotted?

        10     A.   Ultimately 42 million acres were allotted.

        11     Q.   How can that calculation prior to 1910 --

        12     A.   What that means, there is a gradual process of allotment

        13     involved in this, and I don't know how a linear interpolation

        14     going backward would account for the gradual process of

        15     allotment.

        16     Q.   Dr. Angel, did you review Plaintiffs' handling of the Osage

        17     payments?

        18     A.   I did.

        19     Q.   What is your opinion regarding their analysis?

        20     A.   One of the problems I saw with their analysis of the Osage

        21     payment is that as they looked at annuity payments to the Osage

        22     Indian prior to 1908 they used the multiplier of 2,229 Osage

        23     Indians.  That figure was established in April of 1908.  Prior

        24     to that, annuity payments were actually made on the number of

        25     Indians registered at the agency, and quite often that number

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            817

         1     was significantly less than 2,229.  Also prior to 1908 we know

         2     from criticisms in the commissioner of Indian Affairs reports

         3     that at times much of the money was paid directly to individual

         4     Osage Indians rather than going through the individual Indian

         5     money account system.

         6     Q.   Let me show you, Dr. Angel, DX 484.  Do you recognize that?

         7     A.   Yes, I do.  It's the annual report of the commissioner of

         8     Indian affairs for 1889.

         9     Q.   And I'll ask that you be shown page two on that document,

        10     please, and if Matthew could enlarge the highlighted portion,

        11     please.  This section is cash payments to Indians, and it talks

        12     about payments made during the fiscal year to fulfill treaty

        13     stipulations and the like.  And page three, please.  Enlarge the

        14     highlighted portion, please.

        15     A.   This shows on page three there were at this time almost

        16     1,500 Osage Indians, 1,496 Indians at the Osage agency.  Under

        17     the Osage agency, I should say.

        18     Q.   Thank you.  Let move from Osage and talk about tribal IIM.

        19     A.   I'm sorry.  I think there was a page that may have been

        20     overlooked.  The page shows the amount of the payment.

        21     Q.   We don't have that handy right now, so perhaps we'll take

        22     that up later if appropriate.  What I'd like to do now, next,

        23     Dr. Angel, is show you if I could or ask you more generally

        24     about tribal IIM.

        25     A.   Uh-huh.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            818

         1     Q.   Did you review Plaintiffs' analysis of tribal IIM as part

         2     of total IIM?

         3     A.   I did.

         4     Q.   And as a historian do you have a view as to how plaintiffs

         5     handled tribal IIM?

         6     A.   My impression was that prior to 1972 they did not include

         7     tribal IIM as a part of IIM system monies.

         8     Q.   Now let me show you, Dr. Angel, DX 26 at this time.  What

         9     is that, if you can recognize it, please?

        10     A.   This is a report to Congress concerning an investigation of

        11     the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

        12     Q.   And if you would, take a look at --

        13     A.   I'm sorry.  It's dated 1952.

        14     Q.   I'm sorry, 19?

        15     A.   52.

        16     Q.   Thank you.  If Matthew could show you page one, please, and

        17     if you can enlarge the highlighted portion.  What does this

        18     reflect?

        19     A.   Table entitled Data on Reservation, Individual Money

        20     Accounts, and you can see reading across the top it encompasses

        21     reservations by state, and then at the very top you see grand

        22     total all states and Alaska.  The top row across is total dollar

        23     amount and it includes individual funds, $39,040,000.  It

        24     involves tribal funds, $13,126,000, and special deposit funds.

        25     Q.   Now look at this chart, Dr. Angel.  How can you tell those

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            819

         1     references to tribal funds fit within the IIM system?

         2     A.   Well, this is the table itself is entitled Data on

         3     Reservation, Individual Indian Money Accounts.

         4     Q.   Next Dr. Angel let me show you DX 76, please.  Do you

         5     recognize this?

         6     A.   Yes, I do.  It's an audit report by the United States

         7     Department of the Interior, Office of Survey and Review.  It's

         8     dated August 1972.

         9     Q.   And I'll ask that you be shown page two of this document,

        10     and enlarge the highlighted portions, please.

        11     A.   Okay.

        12     Q.   Now, vis-a-vis tribal IIM, how was this relevant, Dr.

        13     Angel?

        14     A.   This report examines, among other things, tribal accounts

        15     that these particular agencies, and as you see, the very first

        16     point is that it's not specifically authorized using the system

        17     as a permanent depository for tribal funds.  It's not

        18     specifically authorized.

        19     Q.   Let's take a look next at page three of this document.  Now

        20     we've got highlighting within the highlighting.  Please explain

        21     to the Court what this means, Dr. Angel.

        22     A.   This audit involved funds belonging to tribes, or I should

        23     say included funds belonging to tribes or tribal groups, and

        24     they say it's seven of the locations say visited.  They

        25     identified 110 accounts maintained for the benefit of tribes or

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            820

         1     tribal organizations.  You'll see that to continue on within the

         2     category of liabilities applicable to individual tribes and

         3     other groups these accounts represented only about one percent

         4     of the total number of accounts but their balances totaled

         5     approximately 4.6 billion -- 4.6 million as of December 31st,

         6     1971.  This 4.6 million constituted about 40 percent of the 11.4

         7     million total balance under this individual account category.

         8     Q.   In light of this document and the one we just showed you,

         9     as a historian what is your opinion then of Plaintiffs'

        10     treatment of tribal IIM?

        11     A.   Tribal IIM is part of monies that entered the IIM system.

        12     Q.   Is it distinguishable from IIM identified for individual

        13     Indians?

        14     A.   It would take an accounting to segregate those funds.  The

        15     1952 report, for example, broke it out, but tribal IIM does

        16     represent money in the IIM system that is separate from monies

        17     that are paid to individual Indian accountholders.

        18     Q.   So how then would Plaintiffs' inclusion of tribal IIM

        19     affect their calculation of alleged benefit to the government?

        20     A.   Well, it would make the total amount received and disbursed

        21     higher.

        22     Q.   Thank you.  I'll ask that that be removed from your screen

        23     now.

        24               Dr. Angel, earlier today you testified about four

        25     specific years, I believe, where actual receipt and disbursement

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            821

         1     numbers exist.  Do you recall that?

         2     A.   I do.

         3     Q.   And again what were those years, please?

         4     A.   1909, 1910, 1911, and 1955.

         5     Q.   Dr. Angel, are you aware of how Plaintiffs used numbers for

         6     those four years?

         7     A.   My understanding, well, my review is that they included the

         8     receipts figures for those years but not the disbursement

         9     figures.

        10     Q.   What is your view as a historian on that approach?

        11     A.   Essentially if you're going to use one you've got to use

        12     both.  Youve at least got to show what the second number was,

        13     the disbursement figure in this case.

        14     Q.   Now, what about the years 1915 to 1920, are you familiar

        15     with Plaintiffs' use of data for those particular years?

        16     A.   I am.  I reviewed that.

        17     Q.   And what is your view regarding their calculations for that

        18     time period?

        19     A.   My view --

        20               THE COURT:  Counsel, I know history is a very broad

        21     discipline, but you've got this man as a historian basically

        22     answering what sound to me more like accounting questions.  I

        23     mean, what does he think as a historian of adding receipts but

        24     not disbursements?  Well, what do all of us think of that?

        25     Let's keep him channeled to his own discipline and to the

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            822

         1     expertise that he quite properly claims.

         2     BY MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:

         3     Q.   Let me show you then, Dr. Angel, Plaintiffs' exhibits,

         4     which we have, 45 through 50.  I'll ask that this be enlarged

         5     enough so that you can see those.  Now I'd ask Matthew to cursor

         6     through those, please, and if you see anything, Dr. Angel,

         7     regarding tribal IIM or unallotted lands, would you please bring

         8     those to the Court's attention?

         9     A.   Certainly.  In reviewing Plaintiffs' calculations, what we

        10     attempted to do, your Honor, was to look at the source materials

        11     that they used and make sure that looking at the source

        12     materials they used that we could replicate their figures, okay.

        13     That is, by looking at such issues as what's on the screen right

        14     now, land lease for mining purposes.  Could we show the other

        15     pages as well, please?  Use of glazing lands belonging to

        16     Indians.

        17               Please go back.

        18               Agricultural lands belonging to Indians, and the first

        19     one I believe involved land sales.  I'm sorry.  It's toward the

        20     bottom of the page.  This involves totals for land sales, so

        21     what we did was we took the total from each of these categories,

        22     so, for example, for 1915 we took proceeds for noncompetent

        23     sales, proceeds for inherited land sales.  We took the totals

        24     all the way throughout and we add them up and by so doing we

        25     were able to get the same figure that Plaintiffs give on their

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            823

         1     Schedule A.  We then went back through their chart and their

         2     supporting exhibits and we came to some conclusions concerning

         3     the way they had used these.  First of all, it appears that

         4     they've used revenues as synonymous with receipts, which they

         5     aren't because in certain instances we know monies are paid

         6     directly to individual Indians rather than hitting the system.

         7     Q.   What is that sometimes referred to as, Dr. Angel?

         8     A.   Direct payments.

         9               Another area that we questioned would probably be best

        10     shown in the glazing table.

        11     Q.   What's significant about this page, Dr. Angel?

        12     A.   You'll notice that on this page there are -- the table is

        13     broken into revenues for allotted lands and unallotted lands and

        14     then totaled, and what Plaintiffs have done is they've taken the

        15     total, the 1,346,000 figure, and they've used that as opposed to

        16     the allotted income.  Now, many Indian reservations were never

        17     allotted.  In fact, by 1935 the end of the allotment period

        18     which ended actually in 1934, of the 213 reservations only 118

        19     had been allotted.

        20     Q.   Dr. Angel, what's the difference then between allotted and

        21     unallotted?

        22     A.   Well, allotted lands are, generally speaking, what generate

        23     revenues to allottees.  Unallotted lands typically are travel

        24     lands.

        25     Q.   I'll ask that that be removed from your screen at this

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            824

         1     time, unless the Court is still looking at it.

         2               Dr. Angel, you testified earlier that you had reviewed

         3     Plaintiffs' filings.  Are you familiar with their 73-page

         4     historical compilation of comments from various reports

         5     regarding the reliability of government data?

         6     A.   Yes, I am.

         7     Q.   And from your research what is your view of the reliability

         8     of government data?

         9     A.   First of all, let me --

        10               MR. SMITH:  Objection again.  I'm not sure a historian

        11     can testify about the reliability of government data.

        12               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  If he can't talk about how

        13     reliable one source is, your Honor, what can a historian testify

        14     to?

        15               THE COURT:  Well, let's see.  You can talk about the

        16     civilian conservation core.  He can talk about -- let me go back

        17     and review this question.

        18               What is your view of the reliability of government

        19     data?  That's a huge question.

        20               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  Limit it to what he's looked at so

        21     far, your Honor, with regard to these records.  Isn't that what

        22     he testified?

        23               THE COURT:  I'll hear his huge answer to that huge

        24     question and deny the objection and accord the answer such

        25     weight as I think it deserves.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            825

         1               Go ahead.

         2     BY MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:

         3     Q.   Did you need the question repeated, Dr. Angel?

         4     A.   Yes.

         5     Q.   What's your view based on your review of these Indian

         6     records of the reliability of the data contained in them?

         7     A.   Generally speaking, we know that -- first of all, let me

         8     preface my question, if I may.  Many of the documents that are

         9     cited to in the 73-page compendium I believe came from my

        10     records collection, so I'm very well aware of the audit reports,

        11     the problems that were found with IIM over the course of the

        12     years.  Generally speaking, despite this, I think that the

        13     records are reliable, that they do present us with our best data

        14     to understanding individual Indian monies.

        15     Q.   If we were to conclude your testimony in summary fashion

        16     then, Dr. Angel, what points would you leave the Court with?

        17     A.   One point that I'd leave the Court with is that there isn't

        18     a great deal of receipt and disbursement documentation

        19     concerning monies into and out of the IIM system.  We've looked

        20     and I think we've given it a good shot and I think that

        21     aggregated material is very, very hard to find.  Secondly, there

        22     are definitely problems with the IIM system.  There are problems

        23     that are revealed by the audit reports themselves, but generally

        24     speaking, as we've looked at, as we've conducted projects

        25     reviewing the IIM system we've been able to show receipt and

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            826

         1     disbursement information.  And third, there are problems with

         2     Plaintiffs' calculations.

         3     Q.   Thank you, Dr. Angel.

         4               Your Honor, I have no further questions.

         5               I would like to move the admission of several

         6     exhibits.  Although we have several from October previously

         7     admitted, we do have some additional ones.

         8               THE COURT:  Go ahead.

         9               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  They are DX 483, Dr. Angel's total

        10     IIM chart, DX 484, the 1889 commissioner's report containing the

        11     Osage number, DX 485, 486, and 487, the examples of the buckets

        12     that Dr. Angel had testified regarding.  DXs 488, 489, and 490.

        13     Those are respectively the statement of funded checking account,

        14     the statement of accountability, and the statement of

        15     transactions.  Finally, your Honor, we would like to move the

        16     admission of all of the DX 300s and 400s on Dr. Angel's total

        17     IIM chart.  As he testified, these are the new or complete

        18     source documents which form the basis of his total IIM chart.  I

        19     have them by number if you'd like, but they are the 300s and

        20     400s contained on his chart, which is DX 483.  We ask that they

        21     be received in evidence at this time.

        22               THE COURT:  All right.  Any objection?  Hearing none,

        23     it will be received.

        24               (Defendants' Exhibit Nos. DX 483-DX 490, and

        25               all DX 300s and DX 400s received into evidence at

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            827

         1               about 2:53 p.m.)

         2               MR. SMITH:  Good afternoon, your Honor.

         3                            CROSS-EXAMINATION

         4     BY MR. SMITH:

         5     Q.   Dr. Angel, you have been personally involved in matters

         6     relating to this case since I believe 1999; is that correct?

         7     A.   That's correct, Mr. Smith.

         8     Q.   And your company, Morgan Angel, has been involved since I

         9     believe 1997?

        10     A.   That's correct.

        11     Q.   So for over ten years you or your company has been doing

        12     historical work for Interior or the justice department; is that

        13     true?

        14     A.   Yes.

        15     Q.   You mentioned a number of forms that you said you would

        16     like to look at, and the first one was form 1189, which was in

        17     the ISSDA monthly report.  Do you recall that?  Did I get the

        18     form number right?

        19     A.   Could you tell me the name?  Is it the statement of funded

        20     checking account?

        21     Q.   Checking accounts, exactly.

        22     A.   Yes, uh-huh, yeah, that was one.  You know, just to fill

        23     that answer out, we would have liked to have turned those over

        24     to people, you know, more qualified than we are to put them

        25     together, but yes, I think they gave us an opportunity at

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            828

         1     receipt and disbursement information.

         2     Q.   And when did you first become aware that there was a form

         3     1189 or a monthly checking report?

         4     A.   As we reviewed our document collection, looking for

         5     anything that we might have already related to receipt and

         6     disbursement information, subsequent to March 5.

         7     Q.   Okay.  So after March 5 you learned of the existence of

         8     this particular form?

         9     A.   We had already collected it but we had not looked at it in

        10     that -- in relation to receipt and disbursement.  We selected it

        11     as an example.

        12     Q.   And about what time would you have collected it, how many

        13     years ago?

        14     A.   I could not say offhand.  I could perhaps tell if I looked

        15     at the document, but I couldn't say offhand.

        16     Q.   Okay.  And would that be true of the other forms you

        17     mentioned, the statement of accountability and the statement of

        18     transactions, that you had them in your possession but weren't

        19     particularly aware of them until more recently?

        20     A.   That's correct.

        21     Q.   Okay.  Are you familiar with a form, standard form 224,

        22     regarding transfers from the 14X6039 account to other accounts,

        23     have you ever heard of that form?

        24     A.   I've heard of a standard form 224, yes.

        25     Q.   And have you seen copies of that particular form?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            829

         1     A.   I don't think offhand.

         2     Q.   Do you know where those forms would be located?

         3     A.   I can't say offhand.

         4     Q.   Okay.  GAO settlement packages, how long have you been

         5     aware of those particular packages?

         6     A.   Probably, I knew of them before the Cobell case.

         7     Q.   Okay.  And particularly how many have you reviewed

         8     personally?

         9     A.   Personally, at least fifty.

        10     Q.   At least fifty?

        11     A.   At least fifty.

        12     Q.   Okay.  Going forward you or your company has prepared a

        13     large number of historical reports relating to this particular

        14     case, that is fair?

        15     A.   Yes.

        16     Q.   And while you may not have personally authored all those

        17     reports, were you involved in some aspect of their preparation?

        18     A.   Yes.

        19     Q.   And you have certainly reviewed all of the Morgan Angel

        20     reports prepared in preparation for this litigation; is that

        21     correct?

        22     A.   Yes.

        23     Q.   And you've testified about many of them in the past; is

        24     that fair?

        25     A.   Yes.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            830

         1     Q.   Is it customary for you to prepare a written report in

         2     advance of testimony during litigation?

         3     A.   Yes.

         4     Q.   And have you prepared a written report in advance of your

         5     testimony today?

         6     A.   No.  Just the table.

         7               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  Relevance, your Honor.  Objection.

         8               THE COURT:  Overruled.

         9     BY MR. SMITH:

        10     Q.   We've heard some discussions, your testimony about meetings

        11     you've had with FTI or meetings with Dr. Scheuren.  Are any of

        12     those set forth in any documents that you prepared, any written

        13     materials other than the source documents themselves?

        14     A.   No.  At least not on my part, is what I'm saying, of

        15     course.

        16     Q.   Okay.  And the discussions you've had, you've mentioned

        17     discussions with Ms. Herman and Dr. Scheuren.  Have you had

        18     discussions regarding your own investigation in preparation for

        19     testimony today?

        20     A.   Please repeat.  I'm sorry.

        21     Q.   You've talked about discussions you've had with Ms. Herman

        22     or Dr. Scheuren.  Have you discussed your investigation with

        23     anybody else outside counsel regarding your conclusions?

        24     A.   In the course of our conversations there were other people

        25     present at Interior department, for example.  As I discussed my

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            831

         1     findings?

         2     Q.   Exactly.

         3     A.   So Dr. Scheuren was present, Ms. Herman.

         4     Q.   Anybody else that you recall other than attorneys?

         5     A.   Interior department officials at OHTA, for example, at the

         6     Office of Historical Trust Accounting.  Certainly when I say Ms.

         7     Herman and Dr. Scheuren I should say there were other members of

         8     their firms there as well.

         9     Q.   Okay.  Let's turn to your testimony about collections and

        10     disbursements.  I think you stated pretty clearly that receipt

        11     and disbursement data on the IIM trust is not easy to find, is

        12     that fair?

        13     A.   That's correct.

        14     Q.   And for the period from about 1909 to 1920, the Department

        15     of Interior prepared some pretty detailed annual reports that

        16     discussed IIM activities; is that correct?

        17     A.   Yes.

        18     Q.   And sometimes they would break it down between tribal and

        19     IIM and sometimes they wouldn't and they'd mix it all together;

        20     is that correct?  They'd have tribal and IIM as one group, is

        21     that fair?

        22     A.   I think that would depend on which particular chart you're

        23     talking about, Mr. Smith.

        24     Q.   Okay.

        25     A.   May I ask which particular chart you're talking about?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            832

         1     Q.   Sure.  Let's ask generally.  Sometimes they would break it

         2     down between tribal and IIM and sometimes they wouldn't; is that

         3     correct, on particular charts?

         4     A.   On some charts, for many of the charts they had it divided

         5     between tribal and individual.

         6     Q.   Um-hmm.

         7     A.   Or allotted and unallotted, and that's what I'm kind of

         8     struggling with right now, and at other times they did not.

         9     They would show reservations statistics or something like that.

        10     Q.   And that was my point.  Sometimes they would, sometimes

        11     they wouldn't.  Now, is it fair to say that after 1920 that

        12     level of statistical details started to decrease?

        13     A.   That's correct.

        14     Q.   The reports sometimes may be two or three volumes and then

        15     you get to a little pamphlet?

        16     A.   That's correct.

        17     Q.   I recall one of the Morgan Angel reports saying there was

        18     an inverse relationship between the size of the reports and the

        19     IIM problem itself.  Do you recall that statement?

        20     A.   I don't.

        21     Q.   Okay.  Is it fair to say that the commissioner of Indian

        22     Affairs made an expressed determination not to publicly provide

        23     that level of detail in about 19 -- I believe it was about 1921.

        24     Do you recall that?

        25     A.   As I understand the situation, Mr. Smith, this was true of

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            833

         1     all government agencies, that the level of detail begins to

         2     diminish after 1921.  That's my understanding of the situation.

         3     There wasn't something unique to the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

         4     Q.   Okay.  And that's something Congress was complaining about,

         5     is that fair, that we want to find more information on the IIM

         6     trust and we're not getting it from Interior.  Do you recall

         7     that?

         8     A.   Please tell me which period you're talking about, Mr.

         9     Smith.  I'm sorry.

        10     Q.   Let's look at Exhibit 74.

        11     A.   Okay.

        12     Q.   Do you recall this document, speech by William King in

        13     1933?

        14     A.   I do.

        15     Q.   I believe you've referred to that document in some of your

        16     reports.

        17     A.   I have indeed.

        18     Q.   And if we could turn to page 33 to 34.

        19     A.   Um-hmm.

        20     Q.   And if we could focus in on the highlighted section at the

        21     bottom of the page.  If you could just look at that.  And does

        22     that reflect your recollection there were complaints from

        23     Congress about Interior ceasing to publish estimates regarding

        24     Interior data at least at that point in time?

        25     A.   Certainly Mr. King was very upset about it.  I have cited

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            834

         1     to his speech.

         2     Q.   Okay.  And he indicated that about half the total estimate

         3     was a mere guess unsupported by statistical facts; is that

         4     correct?

         5     A.   That's what Mr. King is saying.

         6     Q.   So based on your own investigation, as you've testified,

         7     there is no publicly available data that would precisely

         8     identify what the collections and disbursements were from the

         9     IIM trust for each year of the trust, is that fair?

        10     A.   Insofar as -- are we excluding the settled account packages

        11     from this discussion, because I do believe the settled account

        12     packages would indeed give receipt and disbursement -- would

        13     indeed give receipt and disbursement information.

        14     Q.   But today you've only looked at fifty of those and you

        15     don't know what that receipt and disbursement information would

        16     show, is that fair?

        17     A.   Well, I've seen receipt and disbursement information in

        18     those packages.

        19     Q.   But can you give us aggregate numbers?

        20     A.   No.  I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to imply that, that could I.

        21     Q.   Let's talk about aggregate numbers.  Is it fair to say you

        22     can't come up with aggregate numbers on receipts and

        23     disbursements for every year of the IIM trust based on the

        24     review of the historical records?

        25     A.   Not come up with them, but I do believe if the settlement

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            835

         1     packages were reviewed in totality we could have fairly good

         2     receipt and disbursement numbers.  I can't say complete because

         3     those records are old.

         4     Q.   Okay.

         5     A.   But I think they would provide a gateway into receipt and

         6     disbursement numbers.

         7     Q.   In subsequent years do you recall that the annual reports

         8     do provide aggregate tribal and IIM documentation combined?

         9     A.   Subsequent to the 1933, Mr. King's speech?

        10     Q.   Yes.

        11     A.   Yes.

        12     Q.   So some of the annual reports do have combined tribal and

        13     IIM information, it's all lumped together in aggregate numbers,

        14     do you recall that?

        15     A.   I do not.  I do not.

        16     Q.   Let's move on then.

        17               I noticed in the designation of your testimony you

        18     were specifically identified to testify regarding collections of

        19     money into the IIM system, is that fair?

        20     A.   I did research on collections into the system, yes.

        21     Q.   And what are you talking about when you say the IIM system,

        22     collections into the IIM system, what are you talking about?

        23     A.   When I'm talking about the IIM system I mean the twofold

        24     individual Indian money accounts as well as such items as money

        25     that does not -- that enters the system, like tribal IIM, but

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            836

         1     does not get necessarily down to the individual Indian.

         2     Q.   Okay.  So would you agree with me that the individual

         3     Indian monies include not only those that may go into an

         4     individual account but may go elsewhere in the system?

         5     A.   That's correct.

         6     Q.   In fact, is it fair to say that the term "individual Indian

         7     monies" was never really used until, I believe, 1904, is that

         8     fair?

         9     A.   That's my memory.

        10     Q.   Based on a regulation by Interior?

        11     A.   That's my memory.

        12     Q.   And by 1913 the Department of Interior specifically

        13     prepared a definition of individual Indian money.  Do you recall

        14     that?

        15     A.   I do.

        16     Q.   Do you recall what that definition was?

        17     A.   Monies belonging to individual Indians is basically the way

        18     it was.  I don't have -- I cited in one of my reports and I've

        19     reviewed the regulations, but I can't remember it verbatim of

        20     course.

        21     Q.   If we could look at Exhibit 75, you've seen these before,

        22     the regulations for Indian money in 1913?

        23     A.   I do.

        24     Q.   And if we could look at page three of that document.  And

        25     at the top of that page the first paragraph is highlighted.  Is

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            837

         1     that the definition that was provided at that time of what

         2     individual Indian monies is?

         3     A.   That's correct.

         4     Q.   Okay.  Regardless of their deviationnn, which belonged to

         5     individual Indians and which come into the individual of

         6     disbursing officer?

         7     A.   That's correct.

         8     Q.   And that same definition was carried down for deviationss;

         9     is that correct?

        10     A.   That's correct.

        11     Q.   It didn't make a difference where the government agent put

        12     that money, whether they put it into a bank, Treasury, or

        13     cardboard box, it was still considered Indian money; is that

        14     correct?

        15     A.   That's the definition here, but we do know that money is

        16     coming into the system, is being collected in the system that

        17     does not go to individual Indian accountholders.

        18     Q.   And we're going to talk about that.  You're talking about

        19     tribal IIM, correct?

        20     A.   Well, tribal IIM, the bid money that entered the system and

        21     subsequently left the system, some of the administrative fees;

        22     issues like that.

        23     Q.   Okay.  So when we are talking about individual Indian

        24     money, you're not limiting yourself to money that's specifically

        25     put into an individual Indian account, is that fair?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            838

         1     A.   That's the distinction I've been trying to make, which I

         2     hope I've made at least, is money, individual money system and

         3     individual money accounts.

         4     Q.   Okay.  When you were talking about collections of IIM

         5     money, do you include individual Indian money that may be placed

         6     into a tribal account?

         7     A.   Could you please give me an example of that, please?

         8     Q.   Sure.  Is it fair to say that prior to 1908 it was fairly

         9     common to put individual Indian money into tribal accounts?

        10     A.   My understanding of it is that prior to the establishment

        11     of individual Indian money regulations prior to the 1904

        12     definition that we discussed, that these monies went into

        13     miscellaneous receipts of the Indian agent.

        14     Q.   Let me show you Exhibit 76.  Are you familiar with this

        15     report by Historical Research Associates?

        16     A.   I believe I've seen this, yes.

        17     Q.   And HRA is another one of the government's contractors in

        18     this case, is that true?

        19     A.   That's correct.

        20     Q.   If we could turn to page sixteen of that report.  And I

        21     think we're looking at page fourteen.  Two more pages.  And we

        22     could focus in on the highlighted language.  Does it indicate

        23     that at that time in the early 1900s monies, IIM monies were

        24     collected into class three tribal accounts and then were

        25     disbursed to individuals by the local Indian agent?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            839

         1               (Witness reads document.)

         2     A.   It does.

         3     Q.   Okay.  In doing your research did you make any attempt to

         4     make any determination as to what individual Indian trust

         5     collections there might have been prior to 1909 that went into

         6     tribal accounts?

         7     A.   I do not recall seeing any in the course of our research.

         8     Q.   Okay.  Now, talking about tribal accounts, is it true that,

         9     I believe it was 1907, Theodore Roosevelt took the tribal money

        10     and basically divided it up among individual Indians; is that

        11     correct?

        12     A.   He provided the mechanism for it to be done, but my

        13     understanding is that it wasn't, you know, simply turning it all

        14     over.  Indians has to be considered, as we've said the term of

        15     the day, competent.  They had to make the request; things of

        16     that nature.

        17     Q.   Okay.  But he provided in 1907 for the apportionment of

        18     tribal trust funds to individual Indians; is that correct?

        19     A.   He provided the mechanism, yes.

        20     Q.   And that was money in tribal accounts that was intended for

        21     individual Indians?

        22     A.   It was money, it was like annuity payments, for example.

        23     An individual Indian could request and receive a pro rata share

        24     of an annuity payment.

        25     Q.   And the same thing happened again I believe in 1918; is

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            840

         1     that correct, the President said we're going to divide up the

         2     tribal money in the tribal accounts and a portion among

         3     individual Indians, is that fair?

         4     A.   I don't recall the 1918 example that you're talking about.

         5     Q.   If we could look at Exhibit 102.  Are you familiar with

         6     this report entitled the Historical Development of Individual

         7     Monies, Policies and Problems?

         8     A.   Yes.

         9     Q.   Who prepared that report?

        10     A.   I did.

        11     Q.   And if we can could look at page 53 of that report.  Does

        12     it say -- if we could focus in on the second paragraph.

        13     A.   Oh, yes.

        14     Q.   Okay?

        15     A.   Yes.

        16     Q.   Does it indicate in fact in May 1918 that the bureau had a

        17     policy of individualizing tribal trust funds and admitted the

        18     1907 act?

        19     A.   Yes.

        20     Q.   So does that refresh your recollection whether in fact in

        21     1918 the money held in the tribal accounts was to be divided

        22     among individual Indians; is that correct?

        23     A.   Yes.  It could be divided into subject to withdrawal for

        24     payment to individual loaners or expenditures for their benefit

        25     under regulations governing the use of other individual Indian

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            841

         1     monies.

         2     Q.   Let's turn to tribal IIM because you've testified about

         3     that.  And that's basically income that may be tribal but for

         4     whatever reason shows up in an IIM account, is that true, or in

         5     the IIM system?

         6     A.   For the most part those are tribal enterprises that had

         7     been created in accordance with the Indian reorganization of

         8     October of 1934 or the Oklahoma Indian Welfare Act of 1936.

         9     Tribal funds, as I understand it, normally have to be or at that

        10     point in history had to be appropriated by Congress, so these

        11     tribal enterprises are on a different plain.  They're using IIM

        12     as a way to fund these enterprises as a way to allow an Indian

        13     tribal enterprise like a stock racing association to have

        14     immediate access to its own money, so these really aren't tribal

        15     funds, per se, as I understand tribal funds.

        16     Q.   Okay.  So your testimony is the only tribal money in IIM

        17     accounts was associated with these business organizations;

        18     things of that nature?

        19     A.   Well, some tribal money of course would come in by special

        20     deposit accounts.

        21     Q.   What about per capita funds, do those go in a tribal IIM

        22     account?

        23     A.   Would they go -- I don't know.  I don't know the answer to

        24     that.

        25     Q.   Now, Ms. Herman has testified that for the period 1934 to

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            842

         1     1985 there was an estimate made of tribal IIM money from ten to

         2     fifteen percent based on the data that you provided.

         3     A.   Correct.

         4     Q.   Now, can you tell us how you calculated that ten to fifteen

         5     percent?

         6     A.   Certainly.  What we did was we looked at documents we had

         7     collected over the years.  These included such documents as

         8     audit reports which have been referred to in here already.

         9     These included such documents as Indian trust accounting

        10     division accountings of tribal individual Indian monies.  These

        11     included a review of my review of settled account packages,

        12     along with the review of others in my office.  These included

        13     the 1951 report to Congress, the 1952 report to Congress, the

        14     1972 OSR audit.  These included a review of correspondence.  Our

        15     audit was also based on -- or excuse me, our estimate was also

        16     based on a review of reports that showed how much money the

        17     United States government lent to tribal enterprises from the

        18     period 1934 to 1949.  It was something like $13 billion, a

        19     little over $13 billion.  We took these estimates, we took this

        20     data and I made an estimate and that's what it is, an estimate,

        21     and my estimate was also based on historical circumstances.

        22     1934 it would have just started up.  I took the first part of

        23     that estimate at ten percent to 1945 figuring that World War 2

        24     drew many Native Americans away from the reservation, both to

        25     fight in the war obviously and to participate in wartime

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            843

         1     activities, and the second part from 1945 to 1985 based largely

         2     on the various reports that I had seen.

         3     Q.   Okay.  Now, Dr. Angel, I'm a little bit at a disadvantage

         4     because I have not seen all those documents that you just

         5     mentioned.  Did you provide them to Justice?

         6     A.   These are part of Morgan Angel's.

         7               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  Objection, your Honor; relevance.

         8               THE COURT:  Overruled.

         9               THE WITNESS:  These are part of Morgan Angel's

        10     document collection.

        11     BY MR. SMITH:

        12     Q.   Did you compile those documents?

        13     A.   No, I did not.

        14     Q.   You didn't provide them to Interior or provide them to the

        15     justice department?

        16     A.   I simply provided an estimate as requested to FDI.  I cited

        17     some of the document that I used, but I provided the estimate.

        18     Q.   So you have not provided the backup documentation for your

        19     ten to fifteen percent estimate?

        20     A.   No.

        21     Q.   Can you tell us how many documents did you review on 1934

        22     that showed the percentage of tribal IIM in the account, in the

        23     IIM system?

        24     A.   Off the top of my head, no, I don't know that I could tell

        25     you for any specific year the percentage.  I could say that

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            844

         1     we've looked at audit reports.  I could say that we've looked at

         2     reports that indicate how much money was loaned to tribal

         3     enterprises, to, excuse me, to help them get started.

         4     Q.   You can't tell me for any particular year what report you

         5     looked at and what the percentage was you found?

         6     A.   No.  I'd have to go back through the documentation to do

         7     that.

         8     Q.   Dr. Angel, do you have a degree in statistics or

         9     mathematics?

        10     A.   I've already testified I'm a historian.

        11     Q.   Did you have anybody assist in you making that calculation

        12     of ten to fifteen percent?

        13     A.   Several people in my office.

        14     Q.   And you?

        15     A.   This had the same documentation and reviewed it together.

        16     Q.   And do any of them have degrees in accounting or

        17     mathematics or statistics?

        18     A.   No.

        19     Q.   You would agree with me, would you not, that since at least

        20     the 1950s if there was tribal money in the IIM system it was not

        21     supposed to be there, is that fair?

        22     A.   No.  There would have been tribal money that would have

        23     come into special deposit accounts.

        24     Q.   And I'm talking specifically about tribal IIM accounts, the

        25     money was not supposed to be in the IIM system; is that correct?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            845

         1     A.   No, that's not correct.  We've got documentation that

         2     states that there is no specific authorization; however, the

         3     Bureau of Indian affairs recognized what was going on and

         4     approved the use of.

         5     Q.   Let's look at Exhibit 77.  Dr. Angel, this is a copy of the

         6     Interior regulations from 1951, and do you see the section there

         7     on Voluntary Deposits?

         8     A.   I do.

         9     Q.   And you're familiar with voluntary deposits?

        10     A.   I am.

        11     Q.   And does it indicate that those voluntary deposits will not

        12     be accepted except under cases of substantial hardship?

        13     A.   I'm aware of that but I'm also aware that the Bureau of

        14     Indian Affairs at the same time as producing this report to

        15     Congress showing that tribal IIM is part of individual Indian

        16     monies.

        17     Q.   Okay.  Now, you've looked at a lot of the audits from the

        18     '40s, the '50s, the '60s on?

        19     A.   Correct.

        20     Q.   Is it fair to say that many of these audits criticized

        21     these agencies, were having tribal IIM money in the tribal IIM

        22     system?

        23     A.   There is, particularly by the  '70s and '80s, an effort to

        24     move tribal IIM out of the IIM system.  However, it's recognized

        25     in the audit reports, it's recognized in the annual investment

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            846

         1     reports, that this is part of the system.

         2     Q.   But the audit reports say it's in there but it shouldn't

         3     be, correct?

         4     A.   Many of them do.  The 1972 report does, but they're looking

         5     for a way to get it out of the system, but there is no

         6     indication to me of illegality.

         7     Q.   Okay.  Let's look at Exhibit 78.

         8               THE COURT:  How much more cross do you have, Mr.

         9     Smith?

        10               MR. SMITH:  I have a fair amount.  Do you want to take

        11     a break?

        12               THE COURT:  Let's take a break.  We'll be in recess

        13     for about ten minutes.

        14               COURTROOM DEPUTY:  This Honorable Court stands in

        15     recess until 3:35.

        16               (Recess taken at about 3:35 p.m.)

        17               COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Please come to order and remain

        18     seated.

        19               MR. DORRIS:  Your Honor, I was to report back to you

        20     about our discussions about the exhibits that Mr. Quinn tendered

        21     with respect to Michelle Herman's testimony.

        22               THE COURT:  Yes.

        23               MR. DORRIS:  In light of the way we've handled

        24     exhibits here, and her Exhibits DX 372, the five-volume set, as

        25     I appreciate it being offered to show what's supporting

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            847

         1     information she used for her calculations more so than the truth

         2     of the matter stated in it, we don't have any objections to the

         3     exhibits Mr. Quinn called out last Thursday that were offered

         4     for Ms. Herman.

         5               THE COURT:  All right. Thank you.

         6               MR. QUINN:  Yes, your Honor.  One note:  Looking over

         7     the transcript from last Thursday I'm not sure if I misspoke or

         8     if there was a typographical error, but Defendants' Exhibit 327,

         9     which is a binder set which we used the first binder with Ms.

        10     Herman and there were five numbered binders supporting of Sage,

        11     supporting records, we were intending to include that in our

        12     set.  As Mr. Dorris commented, I'm sure he understood that was

        13     part of our set, but in one area of the transcript it's referred

        14     to as Exhibit 342.  Thank you.

        15               THE COURT:  What I have to report to all of you is

        16     that Tiger Woods is up two strokes.

        17     BY MR. SMITH:

        18     Q.   Dr. Angel, before we were talking about tribal IIM, and

        19     Plaintiffs' Exhibit 78, which is an audit report for Anadrako,

        20     indicated March 1985.  Do you see that?

        21     A.   I do.

        22     Q.   And do you recall reviewing this document as part of your

        23     work for Interior?

        24     A.   I may have, Mr. Smith.  I can't say specifically.

        25     Q.   Okay.  If we could look at page two of that document.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            848

         1     A.   Um-hmm.

         2     Q.   And focus in on the highlighted area, the top half of the

         3     page.  And does it indicate the number of accounts and the

         4     balance of those accounts, about $34.5 million?

         5     A.   That's correct.

         6     Q.   Okay.  And if we can now turn to page twelve of that

         7     document.  And do you see a section in the middle highlighted on

         8     tribal IIM accounts?

         9     A.   I do.

        10     Q.   And if you read that, does it indicate that the tribal IIM

        11     was roughly $670,000?

        12     A.   In February -- the very first sentence?

        13     Q.   Yes.

        14     A.   Yes.

        15     Q.   Which would be roughly two percent of $34.5 million.  I'll

        16     tell you, Dr. Angel, that's how I calculate it.  Does it appear

        17     to be significantly less than fifteen percent?

        18     A.   Yes.

        19     Q.   Okay.  Let's look at Exhibit 79.  This is an audit report

        20     for the Pauny Agency, July 1985.  Do you recall reviewing this

        21     document?

        22     A.   Again, I may have.  I can't say that I would remember every

        23     audit report that I read.

        24     Q.   Okay.  Let's look at page two of that document.  Focus in

        25     on the top half.  Do you see there's roughly just under five

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            849

         1     thousand accounts with $2.3 million in them?

         2     A.   Yes.

         3     Q.   And if we could turn to page nineteen, please, and focus in

         4     on the first paragraph under Tribal Accounts.  Does it indicate

         5     that the tribal IIM accounts had a balance of $45,000?

         6     A.   Could we go back to the very first page, please?

         7     Q.   The first one we looked at?

         8     A.   Yes, please.

         9     Q.   Which was page two.

        10     A.   Okay.  Please now go back to the --

        11     Q.   Page nineteen?

        12     A.   Please.

        13     Q.   My question was:  Does it indicate there were only about

        14     approximately $45,000 in the tribal IIM accounts?

        15     A.   Might I see the whole page?

        16     Q.   You sure can.

        17     A.   Thank you.  Please, the next page, if I may.

        18     Q.   Sure.

        19     A.   Thank you.

        20               Yes.  Thank you.

        21     Q.   Okay.  And again, by my calculations it's somewhat less

        22     than two percent but significantly less than your fifteen

        23     percent calculation, is that fair?

        24     A.   Yes.

        25     Q.   If we could look at Exhibit 80, please. Does this appear to

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            850

         1     be an audit report for the -- you may be able to pronounce this

         2     better than me.  Is that the Concho agency or Concho?

         3     A.   Concho agency.

         4     Q.   July of 1985?

         5     A.   Yes.

         6     Q.   And if we could look at page two of that document.  And

         7     does it indicate there is roughly 5,700 accounts with $7.7

         8     million in them?

         9     A.   It does.

        10     Q.   If we could turn to page 24 of that document.  And look at

        11     the top of the page.  It says, as of March 1984 the agency was

        12     maintaining 21 tribal accounts with balances totaling about

        13     $85,000, eight of those accounts with balances of about $36,000

        14     related to tribal operations; is that correct?

        15     A.   Correct.

        16     Q.   So by my calculations that is roughly one percent, but

        17     again significantly less than your calculation of about fifteen

        18     percent, is that fair?

        19     A.   Please let me --

        20     Q.   Sure.  Take your time.  Go ahead and look at it.

        21     A.   Would you scroll down, please?

        22     Q.   Sure.

        23     A.   Thank you.

        24               Okay.  Thank you.

        25     Q.   Okay.  My question was whether it's obviously significantly

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            851

         1     less than your calculation of fifteen percent.

         2     A.   It is.

         3     Q.   Okay.  And if you could focus in on the highlighted

         4     language toward the middle of the page, it says the remaining 13

         5     tribal IIM accounts with total balances of about $34,000 contain

         6     per capita funds for tribal members who cannot be located or

         7     whose eligibility is being questioned for various reasons.  Do

         8     you see that?

         9     A.   I do.

        10     Q.   So does it appear that per capita funds are in fact

        11     contained in tribal IIM accounts?

        12     A.   In this instance it does.

        13     Q.   In this instance it's over half of the tribal IIM money?

        14     A.   Yes.

        15     Q.   Did you do anything in calculating your ten to fifteen

        16     percent to figure out how much of the money was in the tribal

        17     IIM accounts as tribal and how much was actually IIM money?

        18     A.   No.

        19     Q.   Are you aware of anybody who's attempted to make that

        20     calculation?

        21     A.   I'm not aware.

        22     Q.   If we could look at Exhibit 81.  Let's move ahead.  If we

        23     could look at Exhibit 82, please.  Dr. Angel, this is a report

        24     dated May 1996 from GAO regarding BIA's tribal trust account

        25     reconciliation results.  Do you recall reviewing this document

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            852

         1     at any time?

         2     A.   I have seen this one before.  It's been a while.

         3     Q.   If we could focus in on page 21 of that document.  I think

         4     we're on page 20.  Look at the highlighted language in the

         5     center of that page.

         6     A.   I see it.

         7     Q.   Okay.  And essentially is it fair to say that GAO was

         8     talking about the problems with tribal IIM accounts and the fact

         9     that they couldn't separate individual transactions from tribal

        10     accounts, is that fair?

        11     A.   That's a fair statement, but this is after the period that

        12     I, you know, was reviewing.

        13     Q.   Okay.  Do you know what kind of review GAO was attempting

        14     to do?

        15     A.   I don't recall at this moment.  I don't recall this report,

        16     this specific report.

        17     Q.   Are you familiar with the special procedures pilot work

        18     that was done for the five tribes that is mentioned in this

        19     paragraph?

        20     A.   No.

        21     Q.   How far back in history it went?

        22     A.   No.

        23     Q.   Suffice it to say that you have not attempted to separate

        24     tribal IIM or tribal money from individual money that may be in

        25     the tribal IIM accounts, is that fair?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            853

         1     A.   That's fair.

         2     Q.   And you are not aware of anybody who's been authorized to

         3     try to do that, is that fair?

         4     A.   I don't know if it was done during the electronic period or

         5     not.

         6     Q.   So today you can't tell us how much of that ten to fifteen

         7     percent you've calculated is actually individual money in those

         8     tribal accounts?

         9     A.   No.

        10     Q.   You talked about, I believe it was DX 32, and you probably

        11     recall it's a 1909 report that mentioned money being returned to

        12     unsuccessful bidders.  Do you recall that?

        13     A.   Okay.

        14     Q.   I believe you showed us a 1909 report and a 1910 report

        15     that has a similar figure.

        16     A.   That's correct, yes.  I don't remember whether it was 1910,

        17     1911, but yes, you're right, I did show two of those reports.

        18     Q.   Can you tell me another year where it's contained in an

        19     annual report that where collection information includes money

        20     to be returned to bidders?

        21     A.   I did not see.

        22     Q.   So you're aware of those two years and those two years

        23     alone?

        24     A.   That's correct.

        25     Q.   Let's talk about DX 483.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            854

         1               Your Honor, if it would be helpful I'm going to be

         2     referring to this document.  I have a hard copy.  If I could

         3     hand that up.

         4               THE COURT:  All right.

         5     BY MR. SMITH:

         6     Q.   Now, Dr. Angel, did you prepare this entire document?

         7     A.   Yes, I did.

         8     Q.   Did anybody outside of your company assist you in putting

         9     together this information?

        10     A.   No one outside of Morgan Angel.

        11     Q.   Did you personally compile all the information in here?

        12     A.   With the assistance of other Morgan Angel staff.

        13     Q.   And it's fair to say, as you've already testified, looking

        14     on the left-hand first two columns, there's a number of years

        15     you found no receipt and disbursement information, is that fair?

        16     A.   That's correct.

        17     Q.   Particularly up to 1908 and then 1913 to I believe 1921; is

        18     that correct?

        19     A.   Please?  I'm sorry.

        20     Q.   You don't have receipt and disbursement information up to

        21     1909 and then 1912 through I believe it was 1921?

        22     A.   That's correct.

        23     Q.   Now, you do have over on the right-hand side balance

        24     information or what you call total IIM system funds?

        25     A.   Yes.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            855

         1     Q.   And is it your understanding that this balance information

         2     was information NORC was going to use in some way in their

         3     calculations?

         4     A.   Yes.

         5     Q.   And do you know how they intended to use that work, that

         6     information, did you discuss that with them?

         7     A.   No.  I don't know exactly how they were.  I am not quite

         8     aware of their methodology.

         9     Q.   Okay.  You're not a statistician?

        10     A.   Yes.

        11     Q.   And neither am I.  We're on even terms.

        12               But you understood that NORC was going to be relying

        13     on the information that you provided in these figures?

        14     A.   Yes.

        15     Q.   For example, if we look at the balance information on

        16     the -- let's go down to 1919.

        17     A.   Um-hmm.

        18     Q.   I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  If we could go to the prior page.

        19     A.   I apologize.

        20     Q.   And if you look on the far right column, it says

        21     specifically what exhibit your balance numbers come from, is

        22     that fair?

        23     A.   Correct.

        24     Q.   So for example, 1912 through 1917, it will come from?

        25     DX 4-25 for DX 74-2, is that fair?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            856

         1     A.   I wonder if I might ask everybody's indulgence and just get

         2     a paper copy of this.  May I get a paper copy of this rather

         3     than --

         4               MR. SMITH:  If I may approach, your Honor.

         5               THE WITNESS:  This one is just a little bit easier for

         6     me to read.  Thanks.  Oh, not greatly easier.

         7               (Witness reviews document.)

         8     Q.   Okay?

         9     A.   Uh-huh.

        10     Q.   If you look at the right-hand column, those balance numbers

        11     for those earlier years beginning in 1912 come from a document

        12     DX 374102, at least the complete version, is that fair?

        13     A.   Uh-huh, yes.

        14     Q.   And if we could look at DX 374.  And is this a copy of that

        15     particular document?

        16     A.   Yes.  That's a copy of the report of the commissioner of

        17     Indian Affairs for the fiscal year ended June 30th, 1919.

        18     Q.   And if we could look at page 102 of that document.  And

        19     does this appear to be the column where that information came

        20     from for those early years?

        21     A.   Yes.

        22     Q.   And if you focus in, it says funds in banks and in hands of

        23     superintendents and then has a list, 1919, 30 million 9 hundred

        24     30-some thousand, 1918, 23.  And that corresponds to the balance

        25     information in your report?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            857

         1     A.   Yes.

         2     Q.   Now, it was mentioned earlier today that at least on some

         3     of the later reports like this there is a footnote there at the

         4     top, is that fair?

         5     A.   Yes.

         6     Q.   And I believe Mr. Dorris was asking Ms. Herman about some

         7     subsequent to 1920 and they say data incomplete, special

         8     deposits are not included?

         9     A.   Yes.

        10     Q.   And in the early years has that same footnote, is that

        11     fair, or a similar footnote?

        12     A.   My understanding is the first one that appears is the 1916

        13     report.

        14     Q.   Okay.

        15     A.   And the last one that appears is the 1921 report.

        16     Q.   Okay.  And if we could focus in on footnote number one,

        17     which is at the bottom of the page.  This time it simply says

        18     data incomplete.  It doesn't refer to special deposit accounts,

        19     is that fair?

        20     A.   Correct.

        21     Q.   And if you look at the columns, if you go back to the full

        22     page, there's a lot of blanks?

        23     A.   Yes.

        24     Q.   And as you mentioned, if you go back to 1916, 17, 18,

        25     you'll see similar issues; is that correct?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            858

         1     A.   Yes.

         2     Q.   When you prepared DX 483, did you note on there that for

         3     those years the data was incomplete?

         4     A.   We did not.

         5     Q.   You did have a footnote on that particular column; is that

         6     correct, if you could go back to DX 483?

         7     A.   Yes.

         8     Q.   I believe it's footnote three, under total IIM system

         9     funds.  Do you see that?

        10     A.   Right.

        11     Q.   And if you look at footnote three, which is on the last

        12     page, page four, it says, total IIM may include tribal funds and

        13     other funds temporarily placed in special deposit accounts.  Do

        14     you see that?

        15     A.   That's correct, yes.

        16     Q.   And can you tell us why you also did not mention that the

        17     data was incomplete?

        18     A.   No.

        19     Q.   If you go to the first page again, who came up with the

        20     title Total IIM System Funds, is that something you came up

        21     with?

        22     A.   That's something we discussed in our office.

        23     Q.   Did you discuss it with anybody at Interior or Justice?

        24     A.   We talked about IIM system funds with Justice, certainly.

        25     Q.   And did you --

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            859

         1     A.   Or please.

         2     Q.   I'm sorry.  Go ahead.  I don't mean to interrupt you.

         3     A.   No, I interrupted you and I apologize.

         4               Justice Department or Interior did not come up with

         5     this title.  Is that, or is that your question?

         6     Q.   My question was who came up with it, that is something you

         7     came up with?

         8     A.   I would have come up with it or, you know, it would have

         9     been discussed in my office, but I would certainly if it was

        10     discussed in my office it would be me.

        11     Q.   Okay.  Now, that's different phraseology than what's on the

        12     actual reports.  The reports actually say Funds in Banks and In

        13     Hands of Superintendents; is that correct?

        14     A.   That's correct.

        15     Q.   Okay.  So it's somewhat different than how you've labeled

        16     that particular column?

        17     A.   Yes.

        18     Q.   Now, when you were looking at these charts, did you try to

        19     go back and verify whether the information in the charts was

        20     accurate?

        21     A.   To the degree that we could we did.  But for the most part

        22     by looking at individual agencies, for example, which are often,

        23     you know, shown in these charts, but, no, we could not do a

        24     specific agency-by-agency review.

        25     Q.   So some of the agencies actually do their own reports and

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            860

         1     have some receipt data in there; is that correct?

         2     A.   Please say that again.  I'm sorry.

         3     Q.   Sure.  Some of the, for example, in 1919 there may be some

         4     agencies that did their own individual reports and you can

         5     compare it to the full set of data contained on that chart; is

         6     that correct?

         7     A.   No, I'm sorry, that's not what I'm saying.  I was just

         8     going through the chart itself comparing it to previous and post

         9     years, taking whatever historical context I could have in

        10     putting it in that, but I couldn't actually do an

        11     agency-by-agency review.

        12     Q.   Okay.  Have you ever seen annual reports by the Union

        13     Agency for the five civilized tribes?

        14     A.   I have.  Well, no.  I've seen annual reports of various

        15     agencies from National Archives materials.

        16     Q.   Okay.  And one of those would be the Union Agency for the

        17     five civilized tribes.  Have you seen that?

        18     A.   It could be.  I don't recall specifically seeing it.

        19     Q.   Let's look at Exhibit 121.  Does this appear to be an

        20     annual report for 1913?

        21     A.   It does.

        22     Q.   And if you can to page 259 of that particular report.  I

        23     apologize, your Honor.  If we could look at page 259.  I'm

        24     sorry.  262, I apologize.  And do you see the similar table to

        25     the ones we've looked at before at the top of the page, Value of

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            861

         1     Indians Individual Property, June 30, 1913?

         2     A.   It's the same.  In other words, if we scrolled up a couple

         3     of pages we'd have the same heading.

         4     Q.   Yeah.  And do you see the column, third one, Funds in

         5     Banks, etcetera?

         6     A.   Uh-huh, yes.

         7     Q.   And do you see an entry for the five civilized tribes of

         8     $1,441,918?

         9     A.   I do.

        10     Q.   If we could look at page 461 of the same document.  And

        11     does it appear that there's a discussion from the Union Agency

        12     of how much money they had for the five civilized tribes?

        13     A.   $1,651,000 on June 30th, 1913.

        14     Q.   Approximately two hundred thousand more than was in the

        15     chart that you used; is that fair?

        16     A.   That's correct.

        17     Q.   Okay.  Now, it also mentioned another fact.  It says they

        18     deposited $328,596.18 with the Treasury.  Do you see that?

        19     A.   Um-hmm.

        20     Q.   Can you tell us where your chart accounts for money

        21     actually deposited in the Treasury?  And Doctor, I don't mean to

        22     confuse you.  Is it fair to say that if individual Indian money

        23     was placed into the Treasury it wouldn't be reflected in your

        24     chart; is that correct?

        25     A.   We do have a column for that.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            862

         1     Q.   But do you have anything for 1913?

         2     A.   I don't.

         3     Q.   Okay.  So if you went back and you saw this document you

         4     would realize that there should be some money in Treasury for

         5     1913; is that correct?

         6     A.   I'd have to look at this a little bit more closely, Mr.

         7     Smith.  I've got to admit that this one has kind of got me a

         8     little bit confused.  I don't know if we're talking strictly

         9     individual Indian monies or individual Indian monies and tribal

        10     funds in this particular paragraph.  That's what I'm saying,

        11     trying to determine right now.

        12     Q.   Okay.  Let's go on and look at another one.  Let's look at

        13     Exhibit 91.  Does this appear to be the annual report for 1915?

        14     A.   Yes.

        15     Q.   And if we could look at page 198.  And again, you have the

        16     same chart as we've seen in prior years' funds in hands of

        17     superintendents, correct?  And actually, once again we have the

        18     footnotes at least it was there in 1915 as well, correct?

        19     A.   Yes.

        20     Q.   And if we could turn to page 201.  And once again if we

        21     could focus in on the five civilized tribes you see an entry

        22     there for $2.8 million?

        23     A.   Correct.

        24     Q.   And if we could look at page 376 and focus in on the

        25     section individual funds.  If you could take a look at that.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            863

         1     Does it indicate once again that individual money is being

         2     deposited with Treasury, and in this case, approximately

         3     $210,000?

         4     A.   I understand what you're saying, and I think what's

         5     throwing me on this, Mr. Smith, is there something called

         6     Treasury Checking Accounts that I don't know that I'm not that

         7     familiar with, and that's why I don't know what this means.

         8     It's going into the general fund of the United States Treasury,

         9     the Treasury general account, or whether this indicates that

        10     it's going into a Treasury checking account which was used for

        11     disbursements.  I don't know.

        12     Q.   Regardless of that, it says the $210,000 was deposited with

        13     the treasurer of the United States; is that correct?

        14     A.   Correct.

        15     Q.   And that number is $2.8 million is roughly $210,000 more

        16     than the number on your chart?

        17     A.   Yes.

        18     Q.   So to the extent money was deposited with the treasurer of

        19     the United States, apparently it was not included on that column

        20     that we've been looking at, is that fair?

        21     A.   The column on the chart, you know, reflects what was in

        22     funds held in the top of the chart, the top line of the chart.

        23     Q.   Okay.  So funds held in banks and in the hands of

        24     superintendents?

        25     A.   Correct.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            864

         1     Q.   And to the extent Treasury had money, it's not on your

         2     chart?

         3     A.   That's correct.

         4     Q.   How about Osage, did you include Osage money in your chart?

         5     A.   I did.

         6     Q.   Let's look at Exhibit 123.  Does this appear to be a report

         7     of the Department of Interior, 1917 annual report?

         8     A.   It does.

         9     Q.   And if we could look at page 194.  And once again we have

        10     the same chart with the same footnote at the top?

        11     A.   Correct.

        12     Q.   And individual funds in banks and in hands of

        13     superintendents?

        14     A.   Um-hmm.

        15     Q.   And if we could turn to page 197.  Actually let's turn to

        16     page 339.  And do you see the section starting the problem

        17     with ...?

        18     A.   Um-hmm.

        19     Q.   If you read that, does it indicate there are nearly $5.7

        20     million of trust funds in the United States Treasury belonging

        21     the Osage Indians?

        22     A.   Yes, but that doesn't say whether they're tribal funds or

        23     not, and if they're tribal funds they'd be earning interest, and

        24     that's what again is kind of throwing me about this.

        25     Q.   Does it say it is estimated that the per capita portion of

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            865

         1     the Juno wealth is over $10,000?  When you're talking about per

         2     capita, is that individual or tribal?

         3     A.   Individual.

         4     Q.   Okay.

         5     A.   But again, I can't say that this, because the trust funds

         6     are in the Treasury and that's what's really throwing me about

         7     this whole line of questioning, I can't say whether that's in

         8     the Treasury general fund or whether that's in a tribal account

         9     which would be interest-earning.

        10     Q.   So whatever you can say today you don't know?

        11     A.   I can say I don't know.

        12     Q.   And whatever it is, those amounts of money are not included

        13     on your chart?

        14     A.   That's correct.

        15     Q.   Wherever they are?

        16     A.   Yes.

        17     Q.   What about liberty loan bonds, what are liberty loan bonds?

        18     A.   Those were bonds that were issued during World War 1 and

        19     they formed a fairly significant amount of IIM purchases.

        20     Q.   Okay.  And are liberty loan bonds included in your chart?

        21     A.   My understanding is that they are, just from reviewing the

        22     information in the commissioner's reports.

        23     Q.   Let's look at Exhibit 123.  This is the one we just had.

        24     Do we have page seven of that document?  Do you see a section

        25     entitled Liberty Loan Bonds?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            866

         1     A.   Yes.

         2     Q.   And if we could focus in on the highlighted language.  It

         3     says, Probably the most noteworthy showing was the subscription

         4     of seven Indians, including incompetents and minors aggregating

         5     roughly $3.9 million.  Individual amounts range from 50 to

         6     $640,000?

         7     A.   Yes, I see it.

         8     Q.   And then the largest subscription it says was by someone

         9     through his guardian, is that fair?

        10     A.   Um-hmm.

        11     Q.   If you look at page 194 of this document.

        12               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  I'm going to object, your Honor,

        13     as to relevance.  I'm not sure how liberty loan bonds are

        14     pertinent to IIM.

        15               THE COURT:  We may find out.  Overruled.

        16     BY MR. SMITH:

        17     Q.   Were individual monies invested in liberty loan bonds?

        18     A.   Yes, they were.

        19     Q.   And looking at this chart, if you look down at the

        20     footnotes, second page, try third page here, are you aware of

        21     anywhere in these charts that talks about these charts including

        22     liberty loan bonds?  That's my question to you.

        23               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  Same objection, your Honor.

        24               THE WITNESS:  My guess is they were included in

        25     individual Indian monies.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            867

         1     BY MR. SMITH:

         2     Q.   But they didn't separate it on the particular charts?

         3     A.   No.  My understanding on liberty loan bonds is they would

         4     be included in total IIM.

         5     Q.   Would they be included in bonds in the hands of

         6     superintendents and in banks?

         7     A.   Yes.

         8     Q.   Let's move on to the 1920s.  Now, is it fair to say that

         9     beginning in the 1920s you began to rely on similar charts?

        10     Let's look at DX 395.  And look at page 31, and I believe we

        11     looked at this earlier with Ms. Herman, but beginning in 1921

        12     for your balance information you looked at similar charts that

        13     were in the annual reports; is that correct?

        14     A.   That's correct.

        15     Q.   And these are the ones that indicated that the data was

        16     incomplete and special deposits were not included, is that fair?

        17     A.   That's fair.

        18     Q.   Okay.  And once again, the column is Funds in Banks and In

        19     Hands of Superintendents, so once again, it would not include

        20     money in Treasury, is that fair?

        21     A.   That's fair.

        22     Q.   Okay.  And if you go back and look at DX 483, for that

        23     period beginning until 1928, you have no funds in Treasury, no

        24     funds in government securities, no funds in banks; is that

        25     correct?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            868

         1     A.   That's correct.  I believe 1921 was the last year that had

         2     that footnote.

         3     Q.   Okay.  If you look at this chart again, 1924, 1924 to 1925,

         4     does it appear that the revenue actually drops by roughly $3

         5     million, 28.634 to 25.485?

         6     A.   Please tell me where.

         7     Q.   If you look at the Receipts column.

         8     A.   Uh-huh.

         9     Q.   1924 to 1925 revenue drops by roughly $3 million, is that

        10     fair?

        11     A.   That's correct.

        12     Q.   And in 1925 disbursements exceed revenues by roughly $3

        13     million, a little over $3 million?

        14     A.   And just so we're correct about this, Mr. Smith, this is

        15     these receipt and disbursement figures are from the 1906 act

        16     with the limitations I tendered.

        17     Q.   Right, and we're going to talk about those in a second.

        18     A.   All right.

        19     Q.   But if you go over to the column for total IIM system

        20     funds, 1924, 35.6 million, and in 1925, 56.8.

        21     A.   That's correct.

        22     Q.   Now, would the receipts dropping and disbursements

        23     increasing, were you able to determine how the total IIM system

        24     funds increased by $20 million?

        25     A.   I know that they increased largely because of oil and gas

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            869

         1     revenues, but no, that was one of the things that troubled me

         2     about these receipt and disbursement figures.  I could not link

         3     them to year-end account balances.

         4     Q.   Okay.  So the receipt and disbursement information appears

         5     low in comparison to the $20 million increase in the balance?

         6     A.   That's correct.

         7     Q.   And in fact, in 1926 it suddenly drops to -- the total IIM

         8     system funds drop by $12 million and then increase by $30

         9     million?

        10     A.   We attempted to explain that.  In fact, using the Bureau of

        11     Indian Affairs report for 1926 you may notice that their figure

        12     was $22 million.  What we did is we went back to that report, we

        13     took all the figures from the various columns, Funds Held

        14     column.  We retotaled it to get that $44 million figure, and

        15     yes, it still seemed low to me.

        16     Q.   So like me when I looked at it and raised a red flag, it

        17     raised a red flag with you as well?

        18     A.   It did indeed.

        19     Q.   The numbers just didn't seem to make sense?

        20     A.   That's correct.

        21     Q.   Now, did you consider when looking at that that in fact

        22     perhaps there was money invested in government securities during

        23     that period?

        24     A.   Yes, there was.

        25     Q.   That is not reflected on your chart?

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            870

         1     A.   I believe my understanding is that funds held in the hands

         2     of Indian agents does include liberty loan bonds and securities.

         3     Q.   Okay.  Does it include liberty loan bonds as well as

         4     securities?

         5     A.   Well, my understanding is that it includes securities and

         6     liberty loan bonds.

         7     Q.   That it includes?

         8     A.   That the agent was -- I'm sorry.

         9     Q.   I'm sorry, go ahead.  Your understanding is?  I apologize

        10     again.

        11     A.   Please.

        12     Q.   Your understanding includes Treasury securities?

        13     A.   Yes.

        14     Q.   Okay.  If we could look at Exhibit 124.  Do you recall this

        15     report prepared by Mr. Kehoe?

        16     A.   I do.

        17     Q.   And in fact, I think he's going to testify later this week.

        18     A.   I believe so.

        19     Q.   And you've reviewed this report prior to today?

        20     A.   I have.

        21     Q.   Okay.  And if we could look at this report beginning at

        22     page fifteen, page fifteen of the document.  Do you see in the

        23     last paragraph it says -- if we could focus in on the last

        24     paragraph.  Despite such costs such attitudes the BIA did begin

        25     to invest significant amounts of IIM in federal government

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            871

         1     securities during the 1920s.  By 1926 Assistant Commissioner

         2     Merit could report that $27 million of monies held in trust for

         3     individual Indians are invested at the present time in United

         4     States government bonds and notes, and it goes most of which

         5     bear interest at four-and-a-quarter percent.  Do you recall

         6     that?

         7     A.   Yes.

         8     Q.   Now, you do not have the $27 million entry under Government

         9     Bonds on your chart for that year, is that fair?

        10     A.   Well, as I'm reading this I believe, I think that's a

        11     cumulative figure.  So Merit is saying in 1926 $27 million is

        12     held, but I don't think he means that 27 -- that's a cumulative

        13     figure as I'm reading that.

        14     Q.   Cumulative for that year?

        15     A.   No, no, no.  Cumulative.  Total figure.

        16     Q.   For?

        17     A.   For years -- I'm sorry.  As Merit is saying it, if I'm

        18     reading this correctly, and I certainly would like to see the

        19     document involved with this, but I think that what he's saying

        20     is that during the 1920s they're investing money in federal

        21     government securities.  By 1926 he could report that this total

        22     number, $27 million as opposed to the number in 1926.  Have I

        23     lost you, Mr. Smith?  That's not my intention.

        24     Q.   You have, but perhaps we ought to look at the original

        25     report and we can check on that.

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         1     A.   Okay.

         2     Q.   Is it fair to say that prior to 1928 your chart doesn't

         3     reflect any funds invested in government securities, except to

         4     the extent they may be included in some other column?

         5     A.   Oh, correct.  Okay.

         6     Q.   Now let's talk about who is responsible for reporting

         7     government securities.  If you could look at Defendants' Exhibit

         8     42, DX 42.  And this is the government document that the

         9     government produced to you.  If we could see the entire

        10     document.  Is this one that you've looked at before?

        11     A.   It is.

        12     Q.   Okay.  And it's entitled Indian Funds From the Comptroller

        13     General of the United States back in, I believe it was published

        14     in 1929?

        15     A.   Correct.

        16     Q.   If we could look at 42-15 and focus in on the highlighted

        17     language.  If you could take a second and read that.

        18               (Witness reviews document.)

        19               Have you had a chance to read it?

        20     A.   I have.

        21     Q.   And does it indicate that accounts for monies in the

        22     depository banks are kept with a local agency?

        23     A.   That's correct.

        24     Q.   But the treasurer keeps the records for funds invested

        25     represented by coupon bonds in the custody of a superintendent

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                                                                            873

         1     for funds invested in bonds registered in the name of the

         2     superintendent as trustees or guardian for a minor or

         3     incompetent Indian; is that correct?

         4     A.   That's correct.  And in fact, Mr. Smith, I've always

         5     wondered about the relationship of that to the receipt and

         6     disbursement figures that I collected.

         7     Q.   Okay.  So that raises some concern for you as well; is that

         8     correct?

         9     A.   No.  I was just hoping it would be a way to explain the

        10     receipt and disbursement figures.

        11     Q.   Your receipt and disbursement figures for those years are

        12     as reported by the ISSDA, the Act; is that correct?

        13     A.   Yes.

        14     Q.   And that's for funds not invested or not placed in

        15     Treasury; is that correct?

        16     A.   The receipt and disbursement?

        17     Q.   Right.

        18     A.   Well, the general Treasury of the United States, correct.

        19     Q.   And in fact, the last sentence says, No accounts are

        20     required to be kept at the agencies for securities purchased by

        21     a superintendent; is that correct?

        22     A.   Um-hmm.

        23     Q.   So to get that kind of information the agent isn't going to

        24     have it, or the agency -- it's going to be at the Treasury

        25     level, is that fair?

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         1     A.   That's correct.

         2     Q.   Now, let's look at --

         3     A.   May I just see, scroll up just a bit on that same page?

         4     Q.   Sure.

         5     A.   It appears to me that they're using, the comptroller

         6     general's figures and ours are the same, total amount of

         7     individual Indian monies since June 30th, 1928.

         8     Q.   1928.  And in 1928 you actually have a figure for funds

         9     invested in government securities; is that correct?

        10     A.   Yes.

        11     Q.   Which you didn't have for prior years?

        12     A.   That's correct.

        13     Q.   Okay.  Let's look at DX 426.  If you could look at the last

        14     paragraph and take a look at that and read that, please?

        15     A.   I see it.

        16     Q.   Does it in fact indicate that at some point in time they're

        17     actually accounting for Treasury's as property rather than

        18     funds?

        19     A.   It does.

        20     Q.   Okay.  So if you're looking at at least in some years

        21     looking at funds, it's not going to be reflecting what may be

        22     invested in Treasuries, is that fair?

        23     A.   I don't know if that's the case with the rendering of IIM

        24     for settlement in the semi-annual period.

        25     Q.   Have you been able to come up to any extent to figure out

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                                                                            875

         1     how much was actually invested in Treasury securities prior to

         2     1928?

         3     A.   Prior to 1928 I don't believe so.  Please let me look.

         4               (Witness reviews document.)

         5               No.

         6     Q.   There's no doubt in your mind that money was invested in

         7     Treasuries prior to 1928, but you don't know how much?

         8     A.   That's correct.  In 1917 we know that money was being

         9     invested in liberty loan bonds.

        10               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  Your Honor, may I ask the Court to

        11     remind the witness to please speak into the microphone.  I've

        12     having a little trouble hearing him.

        13               THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.  Will do.

        14               THE COURT:  I don't think I have to.  I think he just

        15     did.

        16               THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

        17     BY MR. SMITH:

        18     Q.   Let's look at your receipt and disbursement information for

        19     the same period.  You've testified that that came from something

        20     called the Sundry Civil Appropriations Act; is that correct?

        21     A.   That's correct.  Active June 30, 1906.

        22     Q.   Right.  And essentially all of your information from 1922

        23     to 1949 comes from reports made pursuant to that particular Act;

        24     is that correct.

        25     A.   Yes.

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         1     Q.   Let's give an example of that.  If we could look at DX

         2     414-1.  Is this one of the documents that you pulled and

         3     provided to Interior?

         4     A.   Yes.

         5     Q.   And it says it's being prepared in connection with the act

         6     of June 30, 1906 which you mentioned, is that fair?

         7     A.   Yes.

         8     Q.   If we could then turn to the second page.  And this is the

         9     actual report that's been prepared, is that fair?

        10     A.   That's correct.

        11     Q.   And the only reference to individual money is on the bottom

        12     of the page, and it says, In addition to the foregoing,

        13     disbursing agents collected and paid out approximately $5.5

        14     million of individual Indian money?

        15     A.   That's correct.  That was --

        16     Q.   I'm sorry.  Go ahead.

        17     A.   That was actually one of the documents that struck me like

        18     the 1926 number for total IIM as being out of bounds with

        19     everything else, and in fact, I had mentioned it to NORC that

        20     this number did not strike me as a realistic number based on

        21     everything else we saw.

        22     Q.   So you put it on your chart, but you told --

        23     A.   I felt obligated to put it on our chart rather than ignore

        24     its existence.  It seemed to me that that was my only options:

        25     I would either put it on or say that, well, you know, try to

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                                                                            877

         1     hide it.

         2     Q.   So any number, even if it was unrealistic to you, was

         3     included on this chart?

         4     A.   And it was reported to NORC in particular as what they call

         5     an outlier as something that does not make sense.

         6     Q.   Okay.  Have you ever looked at that particular statute, the

         7     one you've referenced as the Sundry Civil Appropriations Act?

         8     A.   Yes, I have.

         9     Q.   If we could look at Exhibit 125.  Focus in on the

        10     highlighted language.  If you could look at that.  Is that your

        11     understanding of what you read?

        12     A.   Yes, it is.

        13     Q.   And basically as I understand it there's three

        14     requirements:  Number one, it's got to be public money, right?

        15     A.   Um-hmm.

        16     Q.   Does it reference public money in there?

        17     A.   I'm sorry.  Were you asking something?  I wasn't aware that

        18     was a question.

        19     Q.   Proceeds are public property?

        20     A.   Correct.

        21               THE COURT:  Are you asking him about the meaning of a

        22     statute, counsel?  Why don't you just assert what the meaning is

        23     and move on.

        24               MR. SMITH:  Okay, sure.  I'll do that.

        25     BY MR. SMITH:

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                                                                            878

         1     Q.   Is it fair to say that it's supposed to be public money

         2     that's not paid into the general Treasury, correct?

         3     A.   Yes.

         4     Q.   And it's they're required to provide a detailed accounting,

         5     is that fair?

         6     A.   Detailed account of all the payments, yes.

         7     Q.   Okay.  So if we take that $35.5 million number, did you

         8     ever see a detailed account supporting it?

         9     A.   No.

        10     Q.   On any of the receipt and disbursement figures that you

        11     have in your report for 1922 through 1949, did you ever see that

        12     detailed account information?

        13     A.   What I was able to get, most of these are from House of

        14     Representatives.  I believe we located most of these documents

        15     and records of the House of Representatives were just the

        16     summary reports, but I can't say that a detailed accounting did

        17     not serve as the basis for the report.

        18     Q.   Okay.

        19     A.   I did not locate detailed accounting, but that's not to say

        20     that one did not exist.

        21     Q.   And that was my question, did you ever see in all your

        22     research did you ever see the detailed account statement

        23     supporting your figures?

        24     A.   I did not.

        25     Q.   Let's look at DX 414-1.  And looking again at page two, the

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         1     $5.5 million figure.

         2     A.   Yes.

         3     Q.   And that's the number you adopted in your report because

         4     you felt you had to tell everything; is that correct?

         5     A.   That's correct.

         6     Q.   You didn't include a footnote on your report that says this

         7     doesn't look right, it looks low?

         8     A.   No.  I mentioned that to NORC and FTI.  I mentioned it as

         9     something that didn't strike me as right in the same manner that

        10     I mentioned the 1926 total figure.

        11     Q.   If we could look at Exhibit 126, please.  Does this appear

        12     to be an annual report for 1922?

        13     A.   It does.

        14     Q.   The same year you have that $5.5 million figure?

        15     A.   It does.

        16     Q.   I'm sorry?

        17     A.   It is, yes.

        18     Q.   And if we could look at pages 21 to 22.  Do you see a

        19     section starting oil and gas in the five civilized tribes?

        20     A.   Yes.

        21     Q.   If you could turn to the next page.  And is there a number

        22     there for oil and gas for 1922 for restricted Indians?

        23     A.   Yes.

        24     Q.   That's almost 3.9 million?

        25     A.   Correct.

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                                                                            880

         1     Q.   So roughly $3.9 million of the 5.5 would come from one

         2     tribe, is that fair?

         3     A.   Yes.  And I'm sure adding Osage would push it over.

         4     Q.   And how many allotted Indian tribes were there at that

         5     time?

         6     A.   At that time how many allotted?  There would be a total of

         7     118.  But by that point it would be some number less than 118.

         8     Q.   Okay.  And if you look at page 24, in fact, is there a

         9     number there for Osage of 22.1 million?

        10     A.   Yes, there is, but that's of course not all allotted I

        11     don't believe, but I don't.

        12     Q.   But don't know?

        13     A.   No.

        14     Q.   So is it fair to say that the numbers that are reported by

        15     the disbursing agents may or may not be accurate, is that fair?

        16     A.   In the case of 5.5 million, you know, I did believe it was

        17     accurate but also I didn't feel that I could withhold it just

        18     because I felt it was inaccurate.  I didn't think that would

        19     be -- I just didn't feel that would be right, to withhold a

        20     number just because it was inaccurate.

        21     Q.   On that point -- can we look at DX 483?  The figure for

        22     1969, and you have a figure if we could focus in on 1969 would

        23     be the next page, and do you see it says IIM system funds and

        24     banks, $40.8 million?

        25     A.   Yes.

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                                                                            881

         1     Q.   And go ahead to the right.  IIM system funds invested in

         2     government securities, $29 million roughly?

         3     A.   Um-hmm.

         4     Q.   And total IIM funds, $69.8 million.

         5     A.   Correct.

         6     Q.   And if we could look at DX 72.  This is an Office of Survey

         7     and Review Audit Operations dated 1969.  Do you see that?

         8     A.   Yes, I do.

         9     Q.   And that's one of the documents you've used in your

        10     calculations, is that fair?

        11     A.   That's correct.

        12     Q.   If we could look at 72-4.  Focus in on the highlighted

        13     language.  It says the individual Indian money account system

        14     has many attributes of a commercial banking operation.  Some

        15     pertinent statistics are cash receipts are running at the rate

        16     of $121 million per year.  Do you see that?

        17     A.   Yes.

        18     Q.   That's roughly twice your balance number; is that correct?

        19     A.   Yes, but money is being disbursed.  I guess I don't see the

        20     ...

        21     Q.   Did you include that under Receipts under 1969?

        22     A.   The $121 million?

        23     Q.   Yes.

        24     A.   No.

        25     Q.   Can you tell us why you didn't?

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                                                                            882

         1     A.   I can only think that I missed it.

         2     Q.   So you didn't tell Dr. Scheuren that there were $121

         3     million of receipts in 1969?

         4     A.   No.

         5     Q.   Certainly that would be important information you would

         6     want to convey to him to get accurate information?

         7     A.   Yes.

         8     Q.   Is that correct?

         9     A.   Yes.

        10     Q.   When we're looking at these receipt and disbursement

        11     information that you've taken from these reports, these 1906

        12     statutory reports, do you consider the fact that Interior

        13     commonly used the phrase "disbursement" to mean not only money

        14     disbursed to individual Indians but also put into banks on their

        15     behalf?

        16     A.   Please say that again.  Where are you looking, at the 1906

        17     act reports?

        18     Q.   Right.  You've referred to these 1906 reports, that all

        19     they have are receipts and disbursements?

        20     A.   Correct.

        21     Q.   No backup documentation, correct?

        22     A.   That's right.

        23     Q.   And did you consider that perhaps Interior commonly used

        24     the word "disbursements" to be not only money given to the

        25     individual Indians but also put into banks or invested on their

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                                                                            883

         1     behalf?

         2     A.   I can only go by what the report itself said.

         3     Q.   Okay.  Have you seen instances where the phrase

         4     "disbursements" doesn't mean actually disbursed to an individual

         5     Indian?

         6     A.   Yes.

         7     Q.   If we can look at Exhibit 87.  And this is a 1918 annual

         8     report; is that fair?

         9     A.   Yes.

        10     Q.   If we could look at page 459.  And do you see this is a

        11     part of the report dealing with the five civilized tribes, do

        12     you see that at the top of the page?

        13     A.   I do.

        14     Q.   And go ahead and scroll down.  And there's a section

        15     beginning "disbursements" on that page.  Do you see that?

        16     A.   I do.

        17     Q.   And if we could go to page 460.  And do you see toward the

        18     bottom of the page highlighted it's talking about disbursements

        19     for individual Indian and miscellaneous monies?

        20     A.   Yes.

        21     Q.   And it has $1.7 million paid to Indians, and then $5.5

        22     million for the purchase of liberty loan bonds, and $294,000 for

        23     the purchase of war savings stamps.  Do you see that?

        24     A.   I do.

        25     Q.   If we could go on to the next page.  And look at the top

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                                                                            884

         1     half of the page.  And then it talks about other Indian monies

         2     paid to Indians, 631,000, again the purchase of liberty loan

         3     bonds, five thousand, purchase of war savings stamps, $208,000,

         4     and they total it up for total disbursements.  Do you see that?

         5               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  Your Honor, same objection as

         6     before.  Again, we fail to see the relevance of an examination

         7     regarding liberty loans and war savings stamps.

         8               MR. SMITH:  Your Honor, these are investments of IIM

         9     money and they're characterized in the investments as

        10     disbursements.

        11               THE COURT:  Overruled.

        12     BY MR. SMITH:

        13     Q.   And my question is, they use the term "disbursements" but

        14     sometimes when they're talking about disbursements they're

        15     simply talking about money used to invest IIM funds, is that

        16     fair?

        17     A.   But you're also relating to the 1906 act.

        18     Q.   Let's talk about this first.

        19     A.   Okay.

        20     Q.   In this context the disbursements include investments on

        21     behalf of the Indians?

        22     A.   Yes.

        23     Q.   Do you know how they use the term "disbursements" under the

        24     1906 act, whether they're talking about money actually disbursed

        25     to an individual Indian or simply disbursed on their behalf?

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                                                                            885

         1     A.   My understanding of the 1906 act is what it says, and that

         2     is, the general monies that were not paid into the general

         3     Treasury of the United States or disbursed from it.

         4     Q.   Right, and that could include money simply placed into a

         5     bank; is that correct?

         6     A.   I don't know.  I couldn't answer that.

         7     Q.   You don't know?

         8     A.   I don't know.

         9     Q.   Because you've never seen any documentation at all to

        10     support those disbursement numbers, correct?

        11     A.   That's correct.

        12     Q.   If we could look at, moving ahead, 1968.  I'm sorry.  On DX

        13     483, the bottom of the page 1968.  Can you focus on the bottom

        14     line?  Maybe you can't.  Okay.  1968, it begins $41 million,

        15     $41.8 million?

        16     A.   Yes.

        17               THE COURT:  What's the heading on that column?

        18               MR. SMITH:  Yes, if we could get that.

        19     BY MR. SMITH:

        20     Q.   $41.8 million is --

        21               THE COURT:  System funds in banks, isn't it?

        22     BY MR. SMITH:

        23     Q.   Do you see that, Dr. Angel?

        24     A.   I do.

        25     Q.   And then the next item, Invested in Government Securities,

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                                                                            886

         1     $29 million?

         2     A.   I do.

         3     Q.   And then total IIM system funds, $66 million.  Do you see

         4     that?

         5     A.   I do.

         6     Q.   Can you tell me how $41 million plus $29 million totaled

         7     $66 million?

         8     A.   We took that figure from two different documents.  One was

         9     the GAO report, I believe, and the other was a congressional

        10     report, and they are for two different time periods.  The GAO

        11     report, if I remember it correctly, was September, and I could

        12     be wrong.  I could have these reversed, but the report to the

        13     House of Representatives was from an earlier period.  I felt the

        14     most accurate way to represent that was by doing it this way,

        15     but the two figures come from two different documents.

        16     Q.   Okay.  Both documents come from 1968?

        17     A.   Correct.

        18     Q.   And one document, whatever it is, shows a total IIM system

        19     funds of $66 million?

        20     A.   That's correct.  I believe that's a General Accounting

        21     Office report.

        22     Q.   And then the other two documents show closer to $71

        23     million?

        24     A.   Yes.  I believe that's the House of Representatives report.

        25     Q.   So you elected to make sure you put the lower amount under

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                                                                            887

         1     total IIM system funds; is that correct?

         2     A.   Well, it comes from different time periods, and I believe

         3     that the GAO report, and it was correct to the fiscal year,

         4     which is what we were using, but I also felt that in fairness I

         5     had to include everything.  Again, that's why we have those, the

         6     three different figures in there.

         7     Q.   And now did you tell Dr. Scheuren that actually at one

         8     point in time during the year the total IIM system funds were

         9     $71 million?

        10     A.   We did talk about that, yes.  Again, I don't know if it was

        11     specific may I say NORC?

        12     Q.   Okay.  We've talked a little bit about things you excluded

        13     from your data.  And one was that 1969 report, the one we talked

        14     about, the $120 million plus on receipts, correct?

        15     A.   Correct.

        16     Q.   Okay.  Now you've talked this afternoon a little bit about

        17     some of the reports that came out in 1914, '15, '16, that had

        18     some statistical data on individual Indian money; is that

        19     correct?

        20     A.   The commissioner's reports.

        21     Q.   That's correct?

        22     A.   Yes.

        23     Q.   If we could look at Exhibit 130.  Is that the 1916

        24     commissioner's report?

        25     A.   It is.

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         1     Q.   And look at page 169.  If you focus in up at the top you

         2     actually have a chart for sales of Indians allotted lands during

         3     fiscal year ended June 30, 1916.  Do you see that?

         4     A.   I see it.

         5     Q.   And for noncompetence and inherited land sales?

         6     A.   Yes.

         7     Q.   And as totaled by year.  You can figure out what was sold

         8     and what the proceeds were; is that correct?

         9     A.   Yes.

        10     Q.   Is this information that you could use in determining IIM

        11     funds for that particular year?

        12     A.   Not if we don't know what's paid directly to an individual

        13     and what is not.

        14     Q.   Okay.  Noncompetent sales, are you dealing with

        15     individuals?

        16     A.   We are, yes.

        17     Q.   How about page 112.  And here we're looking at least

        18     agricultural land, and you see there's a section there for

        19     allotted?

        20     A.   I do.

        21     Q.   And shows what the income was?

        22     A.   I do.

        23     Q.   Does that income reflect individual beneficiary income for

        24     that particular year?

        25     A.   I don't know.  I don't know what's paid directly to an

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                                                                            889

         1     allottee and what -- there were direct pay provisions, so I

         2     accept the $2,600,000 figure as revenue for allotted lands, but

         3     I can't say how much of that was paid directly and didn't hit

         4     the IIM system.

         5     Q.   Now, are you telling me that Interior actually kept records

         6     of direct pay transactions?

         7     A.   What I'm saying is that this is a total figure.

         8     Q.   Well, that's my question:  Did Interior keep records of

         9     direct pay transactions?

        10     A.   I do not know.

        11     Q.   Let's go to page 117.  Same thing for glazing lands, you

        12     can figure out what was leased, what was allotted, and what the

        13     income was, is that fair?

        14     A.   That's correct.

        15     Q.   Okay.  Go to page 174.  And you have the same table for

        16     mining; is that correct?

        17     A.   Yes.

        18     Q.   And it shows what the revenue was, advanced royalties,

        19     royalty on production, bonuses; is that correct?

        20     A.   That's correct.

        21     Q.   If you look down at footnote two at the bottom, it tells

        22     you whether it's unallotted or allotted land?

        23     A.   Yes.

        24     Q.   Now, all of this information you don't include in your

        25     chart, do you?

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                                                                            890

         1     A.   No.  And I don't, you know, if I cannot distinguish what's

         2     paid directly and what's not paid directly, no, I can't.  It's

         3     not, that's my point, is that I can simply include revenue and

         4     equate it to receipts into the IIM system.

         5     Q.   Now tell us where in this report this money is being paid

         6     directly rather than into the system.

         7     A.   I don't know.

         8     Q.   Can you tell me where in this report or any other report it

         9     says they're keeping records, Interior is keeping records of

        10     direct pay transactions?

        11     A.   I know Interior has kept records earlier regarding the

        12     number of allotments that receive direct pay, but I can't in

        13     this report, no, but these are revenue figures, not receipt

        14     figures.

        15     Q.   Let's talk a little bit about the history of the

        16     disbursements.  Isn't it fair it was quite common during the

        17     early periods of this trust to withhold money from

        18     beneficiaries?

        19     A.   Please explain that.

        20     Q.   Sure.  If you are a minor you didn't get your money,

        21     correct?

        22     A.   If you're a minor --

        23     Q.   The government kept your money in trust?

        24     A.   There were provisions for making some disbursements, but,

        25     yes, it was kept in trust.

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            891

         1     Q.   If you were incompetent the money was kept in trust except

         2     for certain disbursements; is that correct?

         3     A.   Correct.

         4     Q.   They didn't hand over the money to people they considered

         5     incompetent; is that correct?

         6     A.   Correct.

         7     Q.   And I mean, is it -- I want to be careful about what I say,

         8     but at that time in U.S. history if you were considered white

         9     you were competent; if you were Indian, more than fifty percent

        10     Indian blood, you were not, is that fair, is that common?

        11     A.   Please tell me what period we're talking about.

        12     Q.   1909/1910 that was the standard, wasn't it, you were

        13     presumed to be incompetent if you had more than fifty percent

        14     Indian blood?

        15     A.   Quite often that was the case by 1909.

        16     Q.   And it was a different age?

        17     A.   Yes.

        18     Q.   And so if you had more than fifty percent Indian blood you

        19     were treated as incompetent and the government withheld your

        20     money and gave you periodic disbursements, correct?

        21     A.   That's correct, in 1909.

        22     Q.   Do you recall when that standard was eliminated?

        23     A.   By about 1917 when Kayto Cells was commissioner of Indian

        24     Affairs he issued a declaration of policy.  We very much

        25     loosened disbursement regulations, did not abolish them but

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            892

         1     loosened them up.  It wasn't until about 1951 when most

         2     everything was taken off, most of it.  Nonetheless, so saying

         3     there were within the IIM regulations various provisions that

         4     would allow a superintendent to disburse more money under

         5     specific circumstances:  the need to buy agricultural supplies;

         6     things of that nature.

         7     Q.   So the disbursement of the money wasn't unrestricted until

         8     the 1950s?

         9     A.   That's correct.

        10     Q.   Except for Osage?

        11     A.   With Osage I know that quite a bit of money was paid

        12     directly.  We read that through the historical record.

        13     Q.   Let's look at Exhibit 85.  How about 86?  I'm sorry.

        14     Exhibit 86 appears to be the 1909 annual report for Interior?

        15     A.   Yes, it does.

        16     Q.   If we could look on page 67.  If you could focus in on the

        17     highlighted language.  Just take a look at that.

        18               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  Objection, your Honor, relevance

        19     in terms of what the policy was for payment.

        20               THE COURT:  Sustained.  We've seen this before anyway.

        21     Tie this to receipts and disbursements, but let's not dwell on

        22     this.

        23     BY MR. SMITH:

        24     Q.   Is it fair to say, Dr. Angel, that you would not expect

        25     disbursements to equal receipts in those early years when you

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            893

         1     had these restrictions on Indian money?

         2     A.   What period again, please, Mr. Smith?

         3     Q.   Beginning 1909 through, say, 1930.

         4     A.   We would not expect to see receipts, equal disbursements,

         5     equal receipts.

         6     Q.   Right, for all the money received to be disbursed?

         7     A.   I don't know that that's the case at all.

         8     Q.   Let's look at Exhibit 91.  Looking at the 1915 report, do

         9     you see that?

        10     A.   I do.

        11     Q.   Pages 376 to 377.  Focus in on the section marked

        12     Individual Funds.  This is the one we looked at before, but does

        13     it reflect -- I'm sorry.  If you could actually go take it away

        14     off the highlighting.  Go on to the -- go to the next page.

        15     Okay.  This is the wrong document.  Let's go forward.  If we

        16     could look at Exhibit 131, please.  Does this appear to be an

        17     annual report of the commissioner of Indian Affairs for 1929?

        18     A.   It does.

        19     Q.   And if we could look at page 20.  And you see there's a

        20     section on the five civilized tribes.  And there is $14 million

        21     taken in and only $4.8 million disbursed?

        22               MR. SIEMIETKOWSKI:  Objection, your Honor; relevance

        23     and cumulative.

        24               THE COURT:  Overruled.

        25               THE WITNESS:  It says during the fiscal year there was

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                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            894

         1     disbursed from the restricted individual Indian monies the

         2     aggregate sum of $4,869,000, but this is from restricted funds,

         3     right, so there could be other individual Indian monies

         4     disbursed.

         5     BY MR. SMITH:

         6     Q.   Okay.  Okay.

         7               MR. SMITH:  Your Honor, I have another maybe thirty,

         8     forty minutes.  Do you want to stop for today or do you want me

         9     to go forward?

        10               THE COURT:  I'm tempted to just let you play the whole

        11     thing out today, counsel, but we have a criminal matter right

        12     behind you that they've been waiting for half an hour for you to

        13     finish.

        14               MR. SMITH:  Okay.

        15               THE COURT:  In vein.  We'll recess until tomorrow

        16     morning at 9:30.

        17               (Proceedings adjourned at about 4:59 p.m.)

        18                            - - -

        19

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        25

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            895

         1                            I N D E X

         2

         3     WITNESSES:

         4

         5     EDWARD ANGEL, Ph.D

         6          Direct Examination by Mr. Siemietkowski
                    Cross-Examination by Mr. Smith
         7

         8

         9

        10
                                 E X H I B I T S
        11
               Defendants'
        12     Exhibit
               No.       Identification         Marked         Admitted
        13
               DX483-                                             826
        14     DX490

        15     All                                                826
               DX 300s
        16     and DX 400s

        17

        18

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        21

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        23

        24

        25

                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter

                                                                            896

         1                           CERTIFICATE

         2               I, JACQUELINE M. SULLIVAN, Official Court Reporter,

         3     certify that the foregoing pages are a correct transcript from

         4     the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

         5                            __________________
                                      JACQUELINE M. SULLIVAN
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                                    Jacqueline M. Sullivan, RPR
                                     Official Court Reporter