1

          1       HEARINGS ON RAPE AND STAFF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT

          2                     IN U.S. PRISONS

          3   

          4       Ironwood State Prison & Schuylkill Federal

          5                Correctional Institution

          6   

          7            Tuesday, March 11, 2008; 9:00 a.m.

          8   

          9      U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice

         10                    Programs Building

         11    810 7th Street, Main Conference Room, Third Floor

         12                     Washington, D.C.

         13   

         14   

         15   PANEL MEMBERS:

         16   Steven McFarland, Chair

         17   Carroll Ann Ellis

         18   

         19   

         20   Reported by:

         21   David Corbin


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          1                    TABLE OF CONTENTS

          2   WITNESS                                         PAGE

          3   Allen Beck, Senior Statistical Advisor, BJS       10

          4   James Tilton, Secretary, CDCR                     27

          5   Wendy Still, Associate Director, Female           61

          6             Offender Programs & Services, CDCR

          7   Timothy Riddle, Lieutenant, Ironwood Prison       89

          8   Richard Anti, Associate Warden, Ironwood         116

          9   Lynn Thomas, Staff Nurse, Ironwood               134

         10   Debra Dexter, Warden, Ironwood                   146

         11   Harley Lappin, Director, FBP                     179

         12   Glenn Walters, Psychologist, Schuylkill FCI      222

         13   Bruce Kovach, Lieutenant, Schuylkill FCI     223/263

         14   David Steffan, Physician Assistant, Schuylkill   222

         15   Amy Leonard, Unit Manager, Schuylkill            264

         16   Tom Sniezek, Warden, Schuylkill                  315

         17   

         18   

         19   

         20   

         21   


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          1                TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Good morning.  This is

          3   the first hearing of the Review Panel on Prison

          4   Rape.  My name is Steve McFarland.  And it's my

          5   pleasure to chair the Panel.  This is, as I said,

          6   the first of two public hearings this week of the

          7   Review Panel which was created within the Department

          8   of Justice by the Prison Rape Elimination Act of

          9   2003.  Statutory mandate for this Panel is clear and

         10   narrow, to identify the common characteristics of

         11   both victims and perpetrators of prison rape and

         12   characteristics of the prisons that have been

         13   determined to have had the greatest and least

         14   success in preventing prison rape and staff sexual

         15   misconduct as of last year.  This hearing was

         16   announced in the Federal Register on February 19, on

         17   the Panel's Web site and by media advisory last

         18   Thursday.  The Panel will report to the National

         19   Prison Rape Elimination Commission and the Bureau of

         20   Justice Statistics in the Department of Justice its

         21   findings as to the common characteristics of both


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          1   victims and predators in prison as well as what

          2   appears to characterize the prisons with the

          3   greatest and least success in eliminating sexual

          4   assault.  When BJS issues in late April the results

          5   of its anonymous surveys of inmates in jails across

          6   the United States, the Panel will begin similar

          7   hearings with officials and employees of those jails

          8   that rank the best and worst in preventing rape and

          9   staff sexual misconduct.  But the subject of this

         10   week, this month, and in these hearings is sexual

         11   assault in state and federal prisons.

         12             After we hear from the prison systems that

         13   have the lowest incidence of sexual assault, meaning

         14   the Federal Bureau of Prisons and California,

         15   facilities in those two systems, we will convene

         16   tomorrow a second hearing and spend Wednesday,

         17   Thursday, and Friday hearing from staff management

         18   of some of the prisons from systems that have the

         19   highest incidence of sexual assault.  One facility

         20   each in Florida, Indiana, and Nebraska's Department

         21   of Corrections.  At the end of Friday we will recess


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          1   the hearing for a couple of weeks until Thursday and

          2   Friday, March 27 and 28, and we'll reconvene public

          3   hearings in Houston, Texas, South Texas College of

          4   Law moot courtroom.  There the Panel will hear from

          5   officials and employees at five prisons in the Texas

          6   prison system, which were among the ten U.S. prisons

          7   with the highest incidence of prison rape and staff

          8   sexual misconduct.  And then finally we will

          9   reconvene here again in D.C. in early April to hear

         10   from one witness that's unavailable, namely the

         11   warden of one of the Texas prisons.  So by early

         12   next month, after seven days of sworn testimony, the

         13   Panel will have scrutinized the features of ten

         14   prisons -- nine facilities in five state systems and

         15   one facility in the federal system.

         16             On behalf of the Panel, I want to thank

         17   several people for their excellent assistance in

         18   pulling this hearing together.  The Office of

         19   Justice Programs and the Department of Justice, led

         20   by Acting Assistant Attorney General Jeffrey

         21   Sedgwick.  And particularly Michael Alston, George


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          1   Mazza, Kathleen Severens, Debra Harris of the Office

          2   of Civil Rights of OJP.  Thank Andie Moss of the

          3   Moss Group, our expert advisor.  Ms. Camille Cain of

          4   the Associate Attorney General's office.  Mark Eply

          5   of the Office of the Deputy Attorney General.  And

          6   Mr. Robert Siedlecki, Junior, senior legal counsel

          7   in our office.  Very indebted to you and many others

          8   for putting this together.  We have just several

          9   requests for the witnesses, all the witnesses.  If

         10   you submitted written testimony, you may but

         11   shouldn't feel obligated to read it.  You might want

         12   to just summarize it.  We have read or we will read

         13   it and would strongly prefer to leave time for

         14   questions.  We will be very pressed for time and we

         15   want to be able to explore your comments, your

         16   verbal comments.

         17             Second, we want to ask, if you would,

         18   define any jargon or acronyms or prison slang.

         19   Third, the more specific and succinct and direct the

         20   better.  While your testimony will be under oath, I

         21   want to emphasize this is not a criminal inquest.


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          1   We're looking for what works and what does not,

          2   what's associated with high or low incidence of

          3   sexual victimization in prison.  We're not looking

          4   to place blame.  We want to just learn what can be

          5   done to stop prison rape and staff sexual misconduct

          6   in our prisons.  And finally our questions are

          7   directed solely at the prison facilities at issue,

          8   not the entire prison systems of whichever they are

          9   a part.  Thus, we would like your answers to relate

         10   specifically to the prisons at issue and not the

         11   whole prison system to which they belong.  The

         12   record will be left open until 30 days after the

         13   last hearing of the warden of the Estelle Unit,

         14   should any of our witnesses have additional or

         15   clarifying remarks or documents to provide to the

         16   Panel.

         17             It's my pleasure to introduce Carroll Ann

         18   Ellis, the other member of the Panel.  She is ably

         19   qualified as director of the Victim Services

         20   division of Fairfax County Police Department.  She

         21   conducts programs that assess the needs of crime


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          1   victims, she provides technical assistance on victim

          2   assistance, including community intervention

          3   systems, homicide support groups, and other

          4   standards on domestic violence.  And most recently

          5   she was appointed by the Governor of Virginia to

          6   serve on the Virginia Tech review panel that

          7   investigated the circumstances of the tragedy at

          8   Virginia Tech.  So -- and she has -- this is not her

          9   day job, so she's really one of our heroes in that

         10   she has freed up the entire week to spend listening

         11   and to analyzing and trying to distill the

         12   characteristics we're looking for.  Our other

         13   panelist, Ted Sexton, unfortunately had to resign

         14   last week because of his new responsibilities in the

         15   Department of -- Department of Homeland Security.

         16   He's a new assistant secretary there and with the

         17   bombing in New York City last week and other

         18   matters, he just didn't think that he could give the

         19   time that it deserves.  So two of us are the Panel

         20   at this point until a third person is appointed

         21   by -- by the Assistant Attorney General Sedgwick.


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          1   Our first witness will be Doctor Allen Beck, who is

          2   the Deputy Director of the Department of Justice's

          3   Bureau of Justice Statistics.  Doctor Beck had

          4   primary responsibility for the survey upon which the

          5   prisons that have been invited this week were

          6   chosen.  We've asked Doctor Beck to take about ten

          7   minutes to briefly summarize how the Bureau

          8   implemented and interpreted the national survey of

          9   inmates with the objective of clarifying the

         10   reliability and limits of the survey.  It's an

         11   extraordinary and precedent-setting survey.  It's

         12   almost insulting to only give him ten minutes, but

         13   to be honest, because he's here in D.C. we can talk

         14   to him at any time he has the time and many of you

         15   are coming from out of town so we have a limited

         16   length of time with you all.  We had the pleasure of

         17   spending several hours with Doctor Beck already.  So

         18   Doctor Beck's testimony is primarily for the benefit

         19   of the public at this point and we're indeed

         20   grateful for his time.  Doctor Beck, first need to

         21   administer the oath.  Do you solemnly swear or


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          1   affirm that the testimony you'll give the Panel will

          2   be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

          3   truth?

          4             ALLEN BECK:  Absolutely, yes.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Thank you.

          6             ALLEN BECK:  Good morning, everyone.

          7   Members of the Panel, I'm honored to be here this

          8   morning.  Thank you.  I would like to begin by

          9   providing a very brief overview of the 2007 national

         10   inmate survey.  I won't belabor the details.  You

         11   have my written testimony, I will not go through it

         12   verbatim.  I would like to, however, provide

         13   cautionary words to consider as you interpret the

         14   results for specific facilities over the next few

         15   days.  The Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003

         16   requires the Bureau of Justice Statistics to carry

         17   out for each calendar year a comprehensive

         18   statistical view and analysis of the incidence and

         19   effects of prison rape.  It requires BJS to provide

         20   a listing of state and federal prisons ranked

         21   according to the incidence of prison rape.  It


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          1   requires BJS to be in not fewer than ten percent of

          2   the facilities each year.  The report that we issued

          3   in December met the requirements of the Prison Rape

          4   Elimination Act for state prisons and federal

          5   prisons.  The survey consisted of a computer self

          6   interview in which inmates used a touch screen,

          7   interacted with a computer-assisted questionnaire,

          8   and followed audio instructions.  We staffed 150

          9   facilities.  All contacted correctional authorities

         10   agreed to participate in the survey.  Four

         11   facilities dropped out as a result of one being

         12   closed, one being sampled twice, and two of which

         13   the survey simply could not be conducted.  We

         14   interviewed approximately 23,000 inmates, obtained a

         15   response rate of about 72 percent, almost twice the

         16   rate of any other study that we know of in this

         17   area.  The inmates survey screened for specific

         18   sexual activities and categorized various forms of

         19   various incidents based upon the uniform definition

         20   set for -- adopted by BJS in 2004 and utilized in

         21   other surveys.  Reports of inmate-on-inmate sexual


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          1   violence, classified as either non-consensual sexual

          2   acts, more serious kind of acts, which we most often

          3   think about in terms of forceable rape or forceable

          4   sodomy, and abusive sexual contact, that means

          5   unwanted touching, specific body parts in a sexual

          6   way.  Staff sexual misconduct incidents were further

          7   classified as either willing or unwilling.

          8   Unwilling as a result of physical force, pressure,

          9   or offering special favors by department staff.  The

         10   actual facility-level estimates represent the

         11   reports of inmates indicating they experienced one

         12   or more incidents of sexual victimization in the

         13   facilities in the past 12 months or since admission

         14   to the facility, whichever was shorter.  Bounded

         15   victimization rate within the facility:  ten

         16   facilities had rates of 9.3 percent or greater; six

         17   facilities indicated no reported incidents; and an

         18   additional 31 facilities have raised that

         19   non-statistically different from zero.  Obviously,

         20   because this is a sample, these facility estimates

         21   are subject to sampling error.  And you need to be


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          1   aware of the caution, if you can, as you interpret

          2   these results.  Precision of each facility-level

          3   estimate was provided in the report based on its

          4   estimated standard errors.  So if you take the

          5   victimization rate of Estelle, it goes to

          6   15.7 percent.  That rate had a precision plus or

          7   minus 5.1 percent, or 95 percent.  That means we're

          8   95 percent confident that the true prevalence rate

          9   in Estelle unit is somewhere between 10.6 percent

         10   and 20.8 percent.  All of the rates are based on

         11   sampling, all of the rates are subject to sampling

         12   error.  And that necessitates particular care of

         13   interpreting the results, since many facilities the

         14   actual enumerator on which the rate is based is

         15   relatively small.  So for the largest ten

         16   facilities, the number of actual victims that came

         17   forward ranged from 11 in Coffield to 30 in Estelle.

         18   So we have relatively few people coming forward.

         19   Because it is a sample, they represent great -- a

         20   larger number of inmates, had we interviewed

         21   everyone and everyone had responded, we can make


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          1   estimates as to how many that might be.  But because

          2   the rates, the numbers are small, further

          3   decomposition in terms of the characteristics of the

          4   incidents, characteristics of the perpetrators,

          5   characteristics of the victims become somewhat

          6   difficult to do.  So we have provided some of that

          7   information to the ten largest facilities, ten

          8   facilities with the largest rates, as best we could.

          9   And you received those tables in recent days.

         10             I further caution it must be understood --

         11   and that it these estimates are based on

         12   allegations, allegations which have not been

         13   substantiated through investigation, but despite our

         14   efforts to reassure inmates that their responses

         15   about sexual violence would be kept confidential,

         16   some inmates may not have felt comfortable to come

         17   forward or confident in our representations and our

         18   confidentiality.  At the same time, some inmates may

         19   have made false allegations.  We know based on our

         20   demonstrated data collection that we have conducted

         21   over the last three years, a quarter of the


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          1   allegations brought to the attention of state and

          2   federal authorities, upon completion of an official

          3   investigation, are determined to have been

          4   unfounded, that is proven not to have occurred.  The

          5   survey results should not be viewed as the gold

          6   standard.  The survey cannot determine which

          7   allegations are true and which are false.  Despite

          8   extensive follow-up questions contained in the

          9   survey, some inmates admittedly may be making false

         10   reports.

         11             Facility estimates are based on incidents

         12   of varying types, varying levels of coercion,

         13   differing levels of seriousness.  Not all incidents

         14   are in fact the same.  In calculating rapes,

         15   however, we have included all reported incidents in

         16   those rates.  A close examination of the five

         17   facilities with the highest rates indicates that the

         18   primary component was staff sexual misconduct.  Each

         19   had staff-on-inmate rates exceeding 7.5 percent.  In

         20   each of the top four facilities, at least five

         21   percent of the inmates said the sexual conduct with


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          1   staff was willing.  Although this activity is wrong

          2   and illegal, it's quite different from activity

          3   involving physical force and pressure involving

          4   coercion, explicit coercion.  Abusive sexual

          5   contacts that involved unwanted touching are

          6   different from non-consensual sexual acts that

          7   involve oral, anal, vaginal penetration and are

          8   forceful.  Yet the overall prevalence rates

          9   apparently are the same.  The point is that, as you

         10   interpret the results, care must be exercised.

         11   Underlying the rates are considerable variations in

         12   nature and seriousness of incidents being reported.

         13   Facilities' rates are subject to unknown measurement

         14   error.  As with any measures of self-reported

         15   victimization, inmates may have faulty memories.

         16   For instance, they may report incidents that

         17   happened in another facility or outside of the

         18   12-month referenced period.  We confront the same

         19   problems as we conduct the national crime

         20   victimization survey with telescoping and false

         21   memories.  The former prisoner survey that we're


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          1   currently conducting may provide some insight to the

          2   extent of these problems, collecting information for

          3   the totality of the incarcerated period and not

          4   bounding the period, the referenced period, by 12

          5   months or admission to the facility.  Some types of

          6   sexual misconduct may be more susceptible to

          7   measurement errors than others.  Consider

          8   allegations of staff sexual misconduct, particularly

          9   unwanted touching.  The prevalence of these

         10   allegations may be strongly related to institutional

         11   climate, as dissatisfaction of the facility, with

         12   the staff, or the programming.  The prevalence of

         13   these allegations may also be related strongly to a

         14   frequency of pat-downs and strip searches, which

         15   inmates simply don't like.  In 2008, BJS intends to

         16   include measures of institutional climate and

         17   explore the extent to which allegations of staff

         18   sexual misconduct are related to pat downs and strip

         19   searches.

         20             Finally, in response to the NIS results,

         21   the inmate survey results, facility operators are


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          1   placed at somewhat of a disadvantage since BJS

          2   cannot provide detailed data on inmate allegations.

          3   In response to requests from correctional

          4   administrators, BJS is provided facility-level

          5   reports for the ten high-rated facilities.  These

          6   reports, as I mentioned, have already been provided

          7   to you.  We're constrained in the level of detail

          8   that we can provide due to confidentiality

          9   restrictions; however, we provided basic tabulations

         10   showing responses in multiple categories.  These

         11   tabulations will give administrators and the Panel a

         12   better sense of the allegations reported in the NIS.

         13   These tables will not provide the level of detail to

         14   permit administrators to investigate the validity of

         15   specific allegations.  However, they do provide a

         16   profile of inmates who experience such incidents,

         17   detail of when and where incidents occur, details on

         18   the type of coercion used, nature of injuries and

         19   characteristics, and information on the past

         20   employees for reasons -- and for reasons for not

         21   reporting.  I think this information may be useful


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          1   in evaluating current procedures and taking steps to

          2   reduce and eliminate sexual violence.  Thank you

          3   again for asking me to appear before you.  I'm

          4   available for questions.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Doctor Beck, thank you

          6   very much.  I just had a couple of questions.

          7   The -- you mentioned that a quarter of the

          8   allegations brought to the attention of the

          9   correctional authorities upon completion of an

         10   official investigation were determined to have been

         11   unfounded.  And were these uniformly official

         12   investigations of the correctional institution or

         13   its system or by outside investigators, law

         14   enforcement, district attorney?

         15             ALLEN BECK:  Well, when an allegation is

         16   brought forward, an investigation follows, so far as

         17   evidence to examine.  And when we collect data from

         18   administrators, we ask for not only the allegations

         19   but whether an investigation was conducted and the

         20   outcome of that investigation.  Now, the nature of

         21   the investigation varies from state to state, from


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          1   facility -- from system to system, and the jails

          2   obviously, from jail jurisdiction to jail

          3   jurisdiction.  In the 2004 report, which I can

          4   provide to the Panel, we examined some of that, and

          5   who conducts those investigations, as I recall.  So

          6   some of it may be done internally, some of it may be

          7   done by law enforcement, either local or state law

          8   enforcement.  Some may be referred to child

          9   protective services.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  In the case of

         11   California, they had an office that --

         12             ALLEN BECK:  Yeah, it really depends on

         13   the operations of the system.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I also wanted to follow

         15   up on your statement that in each of the top four

         16   facilities, at least five percent of the inmates

         17   said the sexual contact with staff was willing.

         18   Although this activity is wrong and illegal, it's

         19   quite different from activity involving physical

         20   force and pressure.  In what way is it different --

         21   can't -- is there such a thing as consensual sex


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          1   when there's a relationship of a guard and a

          2   prisoner?

          3             ALLEN BECK:  Absolutely not.  That's why

          4   it's illegal.  And that's why it's wrong.  However,

          5   I think one of the -- to face reality, that some of

          6   these incidents may have been initiated by the

          7   inmate, not by the staff.  And you do have to

          8   consider who is the victim in some respects to these

          9   incidents.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Would it be fair to

         11   say, though, that an inmate, such an inmate, might

         12   have ulterior motives and then as soon as he or she

         13   compromises the officer, he's got that guard over a

         14   barrel, so to speak, and can extort concessions,

         15   contraband, other things, so it may not always be

         16   consensual in the sense of an amorous desire but

         17   rather --

         18             ALLEN BECK:  That's correct.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So we will never know.

         20             ALLEN BECK:  That's a challenge to

         21   understand that dynamic.  We certainly found in our


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          1   administrative collections a large proportion of

          2   substantiated incidents of staff sexual misconduct

          3   involving female staff with male inmates.  And upon

          4   investigation, a large number of those incidents

          5   being characterized as willing or romantic or

          6   impossible to determine sometimes.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  My last question was

          8   related to BJS's attention to measure institutional

          9   climate and relationship to pat-downs and strip

         10   search.  When will that study -- when will we be

         11   supplied the --

         12             ALLEN BECK:  Well, we're going to

         13   introduce a battery of new questions in the 2008

         14   inmate survey.  And we're developing those questions

         15   using institutional climates that have been used in

         16   the correctional facilities in the past.  And so we

         17   feel these are equivalent appropriate measures for

         18   deeper understanding of staff sexual misconduct.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  When do you expect --

         20             ALLEN BECK:  Well, that will be -- the

         21   next round will begin data collection in September.


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          1   Expecting review and clearance on those measures.

          2   The prison -- prisons will be first -- the prison

          3   collection will be done largely upfront first as we

          4   get this year.  So we're talking four to five months

          5   for data collection.  So we're into March of next

          6   year somewhere.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Doctor Beck, we -- I

          8   want to just read excerpts of the testimony of the

          9   second expert with whom I think you're familiar,

         10   Doctor Gerald Gaes, who is a consultant.  Couldn't

         11   be here today, but we asked him for his opinion

         12   about the credibility of the survey on which these

         13   rankings are predicated.  And I won't read his

         14   entire testimony, but suffice to say he notes that

         15   the "national inmate survey is the most

         16   comprehensive and systematic assessment of sexual

         17   victimization in prisons that's ever been

         18   conducted."  And then he talks about various

         19   problems, some of which Doctor Beck has mentioned,

         20   assumptions, and "why research has demonstrated that

         21   the audio techniques, computer-assisted surveying


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          1   instrument techniques that Doctor Beck and his team

          2   developed, are better than other survey methods to

          3   elicit responses to sensitive questions.

          4   Furthermore, since the survey questions are

          5   transmitted orally over ear phones and the

          6   alternative responses are highlighted on the screen,

          7   even inmates who have minimal literacy skills can

          8   participate in the survey."  Then talks about how

          9   they overcame other issues, issues of consent, why

         10   this is superior to pencil-and-paper forms, the

         11   latter being used if it was too dangerous to take an

         12   inmate out of his or her cell.  He notes that "the

         13   overall response rate was 72 percent, which is quite

         14   good for a survey of this nature.  The statisticians

         15   on this project used weights based on inmate age,

         16   gender, race, date of admission, and sentence length

         17   to insure representation of the facility

         18   population."  And then he concludes with a

         19   discussion of competing biases, as Doctor Beck

         20   mentioned, the possible bias of underreporting due

         21   to coercion of the -- or suppression of candor on


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          1   the inmates, and the possibility of overreporting,

          2   if there is a sense that they wanted to make life

          3   difficult for their captors, so to speak, by

          4   overreporting incidents.  And he discusses how this

          5   can and was and might be further ameliorated in what

          6   BJS is planning to do in its next survey.  I want to

          7   thank Doctor Beck for your testimony.  Unless

          8   Ms. Ellis has any questions.

          9             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Thank you, Doctor

         10   Beck.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Thank you very much.  I

         12   screwed up and failed to give Ms. Ellis an

         13   opportunity to make some opening remarks.  If she

         14   doesn't mind, I'll give you now or would you rather

         15   do it tomorrow morning?

         16             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I'll do it now.  Good

         17   morning.  I am a victim advocate, and as such I am

         18   both motivated and challenged by the work of this

         19   Panel, which of course is focused on PREA, the PREA

         20   Act, efforts to eliminate prison rape.  Because it

         21   is such important work, I feel that we have the


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          1   opportunity to focus in on sexual assault and ways

          2   of eliminating it within a specific population and

          3   culture.  Rape, wherever it might occur, constitutes

          4   one of the most demoralizing acts of violence.  Rape

          5   is an act of aggression, regardless of the gender of

          6   the victim or the perpetrator.  It is neither about

          7   sexual desire nor deprivation, but it is motivated

          8   by power and control.  Sexual assault in any form is

          9   dehumanizing and insidious in ways that leave the

         10   victim traumatized, including shamed, self-loathing

         11   and the object of blame by others.  Sexual assault

         12   victims must deal with concerns of sexually

         13   transmitted diseases, the loss of sexuality --

         14   because of forced sexual violation, the loss of

         15   privacy, self-esteem, and the fear of future or

         16   continued sexual violence.  I am convinced that as

         17   we hear today and throughout the week from so many

         18   who will provide testimony, that such shared

         19   information will surely expand our individual and

         20   collective ability to assist victims of sexual

         21   assault, whether in prisons or in the wider world.


                                                                       27

          1   Also, the shared information will in the end help us

          2   as a society to strive toward a more civilized world

          3   where sexual assault in any form will not be

          4   tolerated and cease to exist.  I want to join the

          5   chair in thanking all of those who have worked so

          6   diligently to bring us to this point.  Thank you

          7   very much and I look forward to testimony.  Thank

          8   you.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Our next witness is

         10   Mr. James Tilton, who is the secretary of the

         11   California Department of Corrections and

         12   Rehabilitation.  Thank you for being with us,

         13   Mr. Secretary.  If you wouldn't mind raising your

         14   right hand.  Do you solemnly swear or affirm that

         15   the testimony you give the Panel will be the whole

         16   truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God?

         17             JAMES TILTON:  I do.  Thank you very much.

         18   My staff are here to follow behind me to give some

         19   more details, but you have my talking points I

         20   submitted to you, but I would like to walk through

         21   that a little bit to reemphasize how important I


                                                                       28

          1   think this is for my job in terms of secretary of

          2   Department of Corrections and some of the major

          3   reforms that California is moving forward.  And I

          4   consider this as one of the major issues in terms of

          5   creating a safe environment for our prison system.

          6   So let me walk you through a little bit, give you

          7   some highlights.  I won't go through all of them.

          8   But I think it's important for me to reemphasize how

          9   important I think the activities of this Panel are

         10   and for all of us to keep working to create safe

         11   environments.

         12             Again, thank you for the opportunity to

         13   testify in front of your Panel.  I can't think of

         14   anything more important as the secretary than

         15   creating a safe environment in the prison system in

         16   California for both staff and inmates.  And I'm very

         17   excited about the effort that California has taken

         18   in terms of -- in my view taking the issue of prison

         19   rape and prison rape elimination very seriously in

         20   California.  As you know, California passed its own

         21   law to make it not just a federal responsibility but


                                                                       29

          1   a state responsibility.  Eliminating sexual assault

          2   within our facilities and setting zero tolerance

          3   expectation, and prosecuting those who violate the

          4   laws let them know that you're creating a safe

          5   environment in the prison system of California.  We

          6   have written statewide policies, we created zero

          7   tolerance.  We put out memos to that effect.  We

          8   provide standard protocols of investigations.  We

          9   partner with researchers around the country to make

         10   sure we have clear policies in California.  We're

         11   creating evidence-based practices.  I know Doctor

         12   Beck has dealt with the issue of the statistics, but

         13   it's the best we have.  And I think it's important

         14   for us not to state lightly some of the variances,

         15   but to focus on what it does give us in terms of

         16   information and in terms of what's happening.  We

         17   partnered with NIC in our efforts to eradicate

         18   prison sexual assault and we're working very closely

         19   with the national standards (inaudible).  Again, my

         20   agency has zero tolerance for sexual assault in the

         21   prison systems as well as for the sole point of


                                                                       30

          1   creating a safe environment.

          2             The zero tolerance policy also provides

          3   four hours of managerial training.  We think this is

          4   key to not just have a policy statement, but make

          5   sure that all staff and inmates are aware of that

          6   policy.  Further, to protect that, we establish

          7   booklets and information for inmates and staff in

          8   order to get the word out in terms of what our

          9   expectations are.  We have a video that's being used

         10   for inmates so they are aware of their rights,

         11   trying to reinforce this issue that we have a safe

         12   environment and it's okay to report incidents that

         13   may take place.  We have done all we can in terms of

         14   publicizing that issue.  We established posters in

         15   the prisons and you'll hear more about that from my

         16   staff today.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  We've seen them.

         18             JAMES TILTON:  And I think the -- the

         19   other thing we've done that has been very

         20   educational for us is to look at housing policies,

         21   and not just in terms of asking the inmates to


                                                                       31

          1   evaluate the practice in terms of how we do that.

          2   We take face-to-face interviews, address their

          3   safety issues, height, weight, race, gang

          4   affiliation, commitment offense, sexual assault

          5   history as we assign housing.  And I think that's

          6   been a major positive influence on our ability to

          7   provide that safe environment.  We look at those

          8   factors which may be -- to set up a situation where

          9   we create a potential for the assaults.  We're doing

         10   research in California with the assistance of Doctor

         11   Bou Regents.  We know that establishing housing

         12   protocols and considering offenders' size and age is

         13   critical to the inmate safety.  We're currently

         14   taking on a second research project with Mercy

         15   California, Irvine, to provide evidence necessary to

         16   improve our operational policies and procedures

         17   related to transgender inmates.  We did a study and

         18   found out that they are more vulnerable to this, and

         19   so we think it provides a separate focus to look at

         20   the transgender inmate population and identify if

         21   there's other issues that we should be addressing in


                                                                       32

          1   that population.  We've partnered with a non-profit

          2   agency, Stop Prisoner Rape, to establish memorandums

          3   of understanding in individual institutions for

          4   local rape crisis centers to respond to incidents of

          5   rape in our prisons.  We put an inmate outreach

          6   program in 17 of our institutions, hoping to move

          7   forward with the rest of those and establish a --

          8   Stop Prisoner Rape has implemented a pilot program,

          9   Paths to Recovery.  At one adult male institution

         10   the CCI -- in one adult female institution, provided

         11   extended counseling to inmate victims of sexual

         12   assault no matter when the assault occurred.  It is

         13   my understanding that this is the first program of

         14   its kind in the nation.

         15             Again, as a system, I think it's very

         16   important for us to establish this issue of safe

         17   environments for prison.  Kind of a side comment, as

         18   you know, California is probably one of the most

         19   overcrowded prison systems in the nation, and that's

         20   been a negative impact on our ability to provide

         21   that safe environment.  We're on our major issue now


                                                                       33

          1   to rethink how we manage inmate populations in

          2   California, to get out of the warehousing mentality

          3   that we have had, and this issue, this program here,

          4   I think, is allowing us to focus on issues which

          5   will help us across the board in terms of addressing

          6   the issues in the prison system to create that safe,

          7   positive environment where inmates are better off

          8   when they leave than when they came into the

          9   department.  One other comment I want to make,

         10   though, in terms of the data.  You're going to hear

         11   from an institution that has zero incidents of --

         12   based on Doctor Beck's study.  And I don't mean this

         13   as a negative, it's a great institution, managed

         14   very well, but I also am not assuming that it is

         15   zero.  That it could be, if this was a situation

         16   looking at statistics, we could have a situation

         17   where inmates could be afraid to report.  I don't

         18   think that's the case here, but I want to put on the

         19   table.  In addition, I have institutions who have

         20   higher incidence based on Doctor Beck's studies.

         21   And when I look at those institutions, I'll be


                                                                       34

          1   candid, that I think those numbers are high based on

          2   the characteristics of those institutions.  But I'm

          3   not ignoring those institutions, and we need to look

          4   at the entire spectrum to make sure, again, we're

          5   creating an environment in the prison system where

          6   people are safe, do their time, and are free from

          7   rape and other issues and situations.

          8             In closing, I just want to thank you for

          9   your efforts.  I think it's very helpful for us to

         10   take a look at our organizations to make sure what

         11   we're doing -- to provide proper environments for

         12   inmates to serve their time, and I look forward to

         13   working with your Panel and seeing results and

         14   seeing if we can't do a better job in California

         15   than we already do.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Thank you,

         17   Mr. Secretary.  The written statement and your

         18   verbal summary suggests that Ironwood, the facility

         19   that was among the zero incidents facilities, that

         20   Ironwood is low because of underreporting.  And you

         21   explain or suggest that certain of your women's


                                                                       35

          1   facilities, including the Valley facility, are high

          2   because of overreporting.  Why do you make those --

          3   draw those conclusions, if I understand your

          4   testimony correctly?

          5             JAMES TILTON:  Well, the issue I have, I

          6   just want -- the data is the best we have.  But as

          7   Doctor Beck said, there's some variances there.

          8   Now, just because I made those statements doesn't

          9   mean we're not paying attention.  I think you're

         10   going to find some things at Ironwood that deal with

         11   inmate communication, training, using inmates as

         12   peer counselors and stuff.  Good positive things.

         13   But I do have a couple incidents that have been

         14   found at Ironwood.  I think there's been two.  So I

         15   just want to make sure that we don't get caught up

         16   in the numbers as much and not recognize -- I'm not

         17   saying there are zero in the other ones, I'm just

         18   saying that we need to be aware of the statistics.

         19   Keep looking at that, trying to fine-tune it.  One

         20   of the things -- it's not in my testimony but I want

         21   to add, besides the ombudsman process in California,


                                                                       36

          1   we have an independent outside investigation process

          2   that I think has helped us in California do a better

          3   job of our investigations when we had an issue of

          4   code of silence in California.  And that's what I

          5   just raised.  I just want to throw that out, the

          6   ideas.  We have an independent, outside oversight of

          7   all investigations of both staff and inmate

          8   behavior.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That's the office of

         10   Matthew --

         11             JAMES TILTON:  Matt Cate, Office of

         12   Inspector General.  To me, that's been a real asset

         13   to have that independent -- to feel comfortable that

         14   investigations are done fairly, completely and

         15   appropriate.  So I just want to throw that out, that

         16   that's an added asset for me as the secretary.

         17   We've got an outside watch-dog agency that oversees

         18   the investigation.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how is that office

         20   outside, who does he report to?

         21             JAMES TILTON:  Well, it's an independent


                                                                       37

          1   office, reports to the Governor and Legislature.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And the ombudsman

          3   reports to you?

          4             JAMES TILTON:  The ombudsman is an office

          5   within my office, yes.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And are there ombudsmen

          7   at every facility in CDCR?

          8             JAMES TILTON:  Not every one.  They are

          9   assigned to facilities.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How many would you say?

         11             JAMES TILTON:  I think we have about 12 or

         12   13 that go through 30, 32 prisons.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And the size of the

         14   budget for the ombudsman is what, any idea?

         15             JAMES TILTON:  No idea.  It's about 13, 15

         16   prisons and whatever traveling.  I'll be glad to

         17   follow up with that if you would like.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  If you wouldn't mind,

         19   that would be helpful.  It's pretty unique within

         20   the country.  And what authority does the office of

         21   sexual assault in detention and elimination


                                                                       38

          1   ombudsman have?

          2             JAMES TILTON:  Well, the office is set up

          3   to have an independent -- again, report to my

          4   office.  The idea is that they work with inmates in

          5   the facilities and we provide a fair and independent

          6   safe place to report, that they can ensure that this

          7   confidentiality and issues be addressed.  Again,

          8   reports right to my office.

          9             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  What is your systems

         10   biggest concern in implementing PREA?

         11             JAMES TILTON:  I think the issue for us is

         12   just a matter of getting communication out,

         13   establishing an environment where inmates feel safe

         14   to report the incidents.  I think we're taking a new

         15   approach to address the issue of victims, which you

         16   talked about.  It's no different in a prison system

         17   than outside.  And so are we providing that service

         18   that's necessary.  For me, one of my lead managers,

         19   who is taking this very seriously and she very much

         20   assisted us and paid attention to it -- we have a

         21   reputation in the prison system of being a little


                                                                       39

          1   callous to the people who we are providing care for.

          2   So this is an opportunity for us to demonstrate --

          3   to me it's the major reforms we're trying to put in

          4   California today.  Inmates -- the penalty is that

          5   you serve your time, not be penalized while doing

          6   your time.  So, to me, this is one symptom of how to

          7   provide a fair and safe environment.  At the same

          8   time, I'm concerned about issues with my staff,

          9   false reporting, to make sure they are protected

         10   also.  We have put some cameras in place.  I am

         11   putting them in other areas.  Cameras in the prisons

         12   have been very helpful, to be honest, in

         13   investigating incidents in the prison system.  So

         14   I'm looking forward to the paths we have with

         15   cameras, and I think I will move forward -- there is

         16   more on that, not just on the prison rape issue, but

         17   in terms of incidents in the prisons in terms of

         18   identifying those predators in the prison and not

         19   penalizing the entire prison population when you

         20   have incidents that have investigations.  I think

         21   right now the issue is what are we doing to make


                                                                       40

          1   sure that there's communication of good practices,

          2   health practices, do that from a public (inaudible).

          3   They're doing a very good job, I think, of

          4   communicating to the inmates the negative -- certain

          5   behavior that may have an impact.  So my issue, I

          6   think, is a lot of focus on the issue, it's

          7   providing management and a system that helps us in

          8   other areas beside rape elimination.  That's my

          9   point here, is that some of the things we're putting

         10   in here today assist us in creating a safe

         11   environment for both staff and inmates so they will

         12   be held accountable.

         13             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  You mentioned earlier

         14   making inmates or making victims aware of their

         15   rights.  And, of course, across the nation victims

         16   have rights in every state.  How is this conveyed

         17   within a prison environment to inmates, that they

         18   have rights?  What are those rights, how do they

         19   understand those rights in terms of their safety and

         20   ability to make reports?  How is that conveyed?

         21             JAMES TILTON:  You'll hear more details


                                                                       41

          1   from Ironwood in terms of what they're doing there,

          2   but the basic issue is we publicize, we do training

          3   of staff and inmates, we do all we can to make sure

          4   inmates -- I think you'll hear about inmate

          5   orientation that is provided when they first come

          6   into the facility at Ironwood.  It's one of those

          7   things that's done early on to communicate that.

          8   But it's up to us as managers of the system to make

          9   sure that, when people do raise those issues, they

         10   are followed through fairly, investigated, and

         11   prosecuted when appropriate.

         12             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  You also mentioned

         13   your partnerships with a number of national

         14   organizations, and you touched very briefly on your

         15   relationships and partnerships within the closer

         16   community.  Could you say a few more words about

         17   that?  You mentioned that you are in touch and in

         18   communication with community-based organizations.

         19             JAMES TILTON:  Right.  Well, what we have

         20   here -- and this is one of my pleasures of coming in

         21   as the secretary the last two years, I found that I


                                                                       42

          1   have a department that's reaching out, outside of

          2   our organization, for assistance.  This is one of

          3   those.  We're doing female gender-response

          4   strategies, we're doing issuing -- the same person,

          5   you'll hear from her shortly.  But the issue is,

          6   we're reaching out of the organization.  My

          7   observation is we in California have put up the

          8   walls a little bit in terms of -- I know fences are

          9   good for keeping people in, they are also used to

         10   keep people out.  And what we're trying to do is

         11   open ourselves up to anyone out there who has

         12   information that we can take advantage of and

         13   partner to learn best practices.  And so I think

         14   that's the issue we have here is that we have --

         15   we're not saying we don't have issues in California,

         16   we're saying we do have issues, but we're looking

         17   around the country and partnering with folks.

         18             Your background in terms of victims

         19   advocate -- I travel around institutions, and it's

         20   interesting when you start putting the rights of the

         21   victim on the individuals.  But all I can say here


                                                                       43

          1   is, and my staff has the details, but in reality

          2   we're opening ourselves up.  We're working with NIC,

          3   we're working with your Panel, we're working with

          4   victims organizations in our communities to have

          5   them assist us with the fact that we have victims in

          6   this business and we should be treating them like we

          7   would victims on the outside.  We're just opening

          8   ourselves up, try to take advantage of whatever

          9   assets, and we're finding people are raising their

         10   hands and assisting us and we sure appreciate that.

         11             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Thank you.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is it fair to say,

         13   Mr. Secretary, that CDCR is overcrowded, as you

         14   said?  I've seen a figure of 270 percent of

         15   capacity.  Is that approximately correct?

         16             JAMES TILTON:  Well, it's hard.  We talk

         17   about the numbers.  I even lose track of them.

         18   Reality is in California we have all the housing

         19   units stacked up as high as we can.  We have over

         20   18,000 inmates, or had over 18,000 inmates in gyms,

         21   day rooms, laundry rooms.  Pretty well overcrowded


                                                                       44

          1   in any term we have.  What we're doing now is we're

          2   going over a combination of reforms, some is

          3   building, but largely reassessing alternatives for

          4   population.  And our population is down 5,000 in the

          5   last six months.  So we're taking steps to do that.

          6   Because without getting a more reasonable

          7   population, it's hard to address basic fundamental

          8   services.  On top of that, we're bringing programs

          9   back in place.  So clearly when the Governor took

         10   over we had the label of California as the

         11   warehousing system.  I was there 20 years ago, I

         12   built 20 prisons, and when I got back a few years

         13   ago I completely had a warehouse.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What's the staff,

         15   quote-unquote, ratio to inmates?

         16             JAMES TILTON:  It's hard to say because it

         17   varies, but very clear California, by buildings and

         18   prisoners, has the leanest staffing.  I think

         19   48th or 49th in the country.  We have prisons with

         20   6,000 inmates or more.  So we did a good job in that

         21   goal.  But a little background.  I left the


                                                                       45

          1   department in 1998 and was in charge of improving

          2   staffing patterns as part of my job, and always felt

          3   I was very tight in my approval of staffing.  When I

          4   got back, through budget cuts they had eliminated

          5   4,000 positions without touching the inmate

          6   population.  So you walk into prisons, you have very

          7   little programming.  And I don't care what kind of

          8   staff, whether it's correctional officers, teachers,

          9   vocational instructors, administrative, maintenance

         10   staff were taken away.  So my task now is to reduce

         11   the overcrowding, put in place appropriate

         12   resources, provide proper supervision and programs.

         13   We did have a situation where inmates were sitting

         14   idle and our response to that was to lock the

         15   prisons down.  We're now unlocking the prisons,

         16   realizing that there are predators, we isolate the

         17   predators, and create safe environments to bring

         18   programs and services back into that.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is overtime a problem

         20   for your budget?

         21             JAMES TILTON:  Well, it was.  Because one


                                                                       46

          1   of the budget cuts they had was they shut down the

          2   correctional officer pipeline to hire, which is

          3   industry-wide.  So we have been basically for the

          4   last 18 months -- we have fixed that.  We're now

          5   hiring, we will be fully staffed by the summer.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Fully staffed to what

          7   ratio or --

          8             JAMES TILTON:  Well, it's kind of

          9   interesting.  We will be up probably no less than

         10   five percent vacancies.  Many of our prisons are

         11   fully staffed -- just a matter of getting the

         12   process up and recruiting.  We pay very well in

         13   California for our correctional officers, so it was

         14   an issue of just getting the process going.  More

         15   important even than the staffing issue is putting

         16   the programs back in place.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Well, how can you have

         18   programs when it's kind of overcrowding?  The panels

         19   at Folsom and Sacramento -- we went into the gym,

         20   they were triple-bunked in the gym.  One hundred

         21   four inmates, two officers.  One of the guy -- the


                                                                       47

          1   cage, not on the floor.  Two officers -- I asked one

          2   of them, if you heard a scuffle down the third row,

          3   number one, how would you know what was going on;

          4   and number two, what would you do about it?

          5             JAMES TILTON:  Or who it was.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Or who it was.  And

          7   they had two convex mirrors to go around a corner.

          8   That was -- that was the line of sight for 104

          9   inmates.  How realistically can you have programs

         10   when the gym is full of beds and you have a very

         11   high ratio, you're overcrowded, and you can't afford

         12   overtime?

         13             JAMES TILTON:  You're right.  And that's

         14   one of the reasons I didn't walk into the

         15   Legislature and say, by the way, I need $100 million

         16   for programming.  I got to find a safe environment.

         17   But we're finding out that we have the ability to --

         18   give you an example.  Had a prison that was locked

         19   down for 18 months, if you can imagine.  The whole

         20   prison was locked down.  So we took steps to

         21   identify some incentives for inmates to behave.  For


                                                                       48

          1   example, those locked-down inmates were still

          2   getting all of the services, quote, unquote.  So

          3   what we did was take away some of those services and

          4   said, if you want to integrate and behave and do

          5   your time, then we will bring back those.  Well,

          6   three big facilities.  Now, one facility is ready to

          7   be opened up.  The second one is, it's got some

          8   issues.  The third one is not working well.  But

          9   instead of locking down all three of those

         10   facilities, we now have one facility that we're

         11   bringing the program back in place, we've gone

         12   through the inmates.  Those inmates are ready now to

         13   be willing to have a safe environment.  So it's a

         14   matter of what I call take back the prison a little

         15   bit and reinforce that.  You can't do all -- won't

         16   be able to turn it overnight, but we're finding that

         17   by identifying those inmates who are willing to

         18   program and then giving those programs we're having

         19   success.  It's one of the issues our population is

         20   down, we're providing some alternatives.  You're

         21   right, it's a huge challenge for us in California.


                                                                       49

          1   It's not a build your way out of it, but the most

          2   exciting thing for me in California is to build

          3   range facilities.  As you know, most of our

          4   prisoners are out -- it's a nice community, but it's

          5   a long ways away from the rest of California.  We're

          6   building community centers so that inmates will go

          7   back into those facilities in their communities up

          8   to a year before they get out, and there we will

          9   provide 100 percent programs.  So we have to

         10   prioritize our resource allocation, but we're

         11   excited about that and California communities are

         12   accepting part of the responsibility when their

         13   citizens are coming home.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Does your collective

         15   bargaining agreement mention the latitude you need

         16   to reduce the overtime?

         17             JAMES TILTON:  The overtime that we're

         18   running, to be honest with you, it's twofold.  One,

         19   it's driven by the agency.  We're addressing that.

         20   We also had a major effort in California -- I had a

         21   few court cases in California, not the least is the


                                                                       50

          1   thought of which is the medical one.  And we're

          2   working with that office and they are identifying

          3   significant resource allocations to increase

          4   resources to move inmates out for medical services.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Out of the institution.

          6             JAMES TILTON:  Yeah.  So that's providing

          7   overtime right now as we work with that office to

          8   validate, what's the need you have, establish the

          9   post, and then we will have the staff.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  In other words, you're

         11   spending a lot of personnel time escorting folks to

         12   ERs and outside medical facilities.

         13             JAMES TILTON:  That's right.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And a federal trustee

         15   is calling the shots so you spend what he says you

         16   spend.

         17             JAMES TILTON:  Well, we have transitions

         18   taking place now.  We had a receiver who was

         19   spending the money, wasn't communicating very well

         20   with me.  My words.  We have a new receiver who has

         21   taken a different approach to work with us so that


                                                                       51

          1   we can evaluate an efficient use of resources on

          2   that.  So I've been very excited in a matter of

          3   weeks that we will be working with -- yes, we need

          4   to make sure inmates get services, and yes, we will

          5   provide that service as part of my responsibility,

          6   but we're also working with that office to see if we

          7   can do a better job, a more efficient use of those

          8   resources and I think we will.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Mr. Secretary, you

         10   mentioned Doctor Genesis's report of April 27 of

         11   last year.  As you know, there are 322 random

         12   interviews of male inmates, and indicated four

         13   percent of them had been sexually assaulted, which,

         14   given 180,000 inmates, if that was actually

         15   extrapolated across, that's a lot of people getting

         16   sexually assaulted.  Do you have plans for doing a

         17   similar study at women's facilities and what did you

         18   learn from Doctor Genesis findings?

         19             JAMES TILTON:  That's the issue I raised

         20   about the transgender inmates, is that was a major

         21   focus of that study.  We will do some more work on


                                                                       52

          1   addressing policies in terms of housing, addressing

          2   that population.  We think it's a vulnerable

          3   population that we need to take steps in -- I think

          4   the rest was less than 1 percent.  I think four

          5   percent was that population, if I'm not mistaken.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So what you learned

          7   from this report was that you needed to do the UC

          8   Irving report on transgender?

          9             JAMES TILTON:  Yes.  Look into that

         10   population more carefully.  The issue for me on this

         11   one -- the whole issue here is I've got 33 adult and

         12   four or six now depending on -- we're going to pay

         13   more attention to this whole issue.  I think it's a

         14   symptom for me to manage my institution -- the Rape

         15   Elimination Act and process is a symptom of creating

         16   safe environments in my business.  So I'm using this

         17   as kind of a lead, it's already here, we're working

         18   with it.  But the same environment that will create

         19   a safe environment for inmates, the reporting of

         20   incidents, take proper steps to make sure they are

         21   investigated, that we do training, are the same kind


                                                                       53

          1   of things I see necessarily in my institutions to

          2   create programming in institutions, to create an

          3   environment where staff know who the inmates are.

          4   They are so big.  Talked about that gym -- we have

          5   over 200 inmates and two staff.  They don't know

          6   those inmates.  How do you know who they are?  And

          7   anonymous inmates are a problem.  And so one of the

          8   issues we're struggling with, I think, in California

          9   is how do you get back, provide that environment

         10   where it's safe, where an inmate can do their time,

         11   where they can do programming and try to improve

         12   their abilities and then provide a better transition

         13   out of the system and into the communities with

         14   appropriate services so that -- as I say all the

         15   time, the ultimate public safety is inmates don't

         16   come back because they are now productive citizens.

         17   So I'm looking at this entire area as a way for me

         18   to test what am I doing in terms of creating that

         19   good safe environment, for both staff to work and

         20   inmates.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is anybody looking at


                                                                       54

          1   California's sentencing, particularly the high rate

          2   of sending parole violaters back to prison even for

          3   short periods?  Are they looking at alternatives to

          4   sending them back?

          5             JAMES TILTON:  Yes.  In fact, my

          6   population is down 5,000 in the last six months.

          7   It's largely due to the impact I'm having on the

          8   violation rate.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  In the what, violation?

         10             JAMES TILTON:  Violation.  In other words,

         11   we had an environment where if you violated your

         12   parole condition, the options were do nothing or put

         13   you on a bunk for five months.  So we were putting

         14   inmates on bunks for five months.  But with the

         15   support of the Government and Legislature, I put in

         16   about 1,800 drug treatment beds recently.  We're

         17   looking forward to about 200 mental health beds.

         18   And so I just asked my parole board and staff, asked

         19   the question, is it better to put a person in

         20   services or to put them on a bunk?  And we're

         21   finding by putting in services they are getting more


                                                                       55

          1   supervision.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  These are outside.

          3             JAMES TILTON:  Outside.  So we contracted

          4   with programs, and I'm pleased to say that we're

          5   taking advantage of that and it's caused my

          6   population to be down.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  You don't have control

          8   over the parole office, so you're getting some

          9   cooperation from them?

         10             JAMES TILTON:  No, parole office is under

         11   my jurisdiction.  The issue is there were no tools,

         12   and so if you're a parole agent and you have no

         13   tools, the only tool you had was to put them back in

         14   prison.  So what we're doing is implementing tools,

         15   asking the parole board that looks at parole

         16   violations as an administrative body, to ask the

         17   question, would this person be better served by a

         18   program or sitting on a bunk?  When we have services

         19   out there, we're finding that they can make a proper

         20   decision by putting in the services programs.

         21             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I'm curious about


                                                                       56

          1   something, sir.  In reflecting back on our visit to

          2   California and having stepped into that gymnasium

          3   with so many inmates and just two guards, I'm

          4   wondering, are there morale issues in terms of the

          5   safety of your staff?  As they go into a workplace

          6   environment that is so volatile for them as well,

          7   and we talk about over time and those things that

          8   impact workers every day, those issues that they

          9   take home and that certainly direct their lives.

         10   What can you tell us about that?

         11             JAMES TILTON:  Let me give you a juvenile

         12   example because the juvenile justice system is under

         13   my purview.  And I had a facility that had --

         14   basically was a high-end juvenile population, was a

         15   very violent facility under -- courts everywhere.

         16   But I was in that facility about a couple months ago

         17   and talking to the staff.  And what we're trying to

         18   do -- we're trying to do two things.  We're trying

         19   to get the overcrowding down.  We're trying to

         20   provide tools for the staff.  In that case, we had

         21   provided some intervention training to staff.  And I


                                                                       57

          1   walked in and was talking to one of the officers

          2   there and he told me about six months before that he

          3   was afraid to come to work.  He was afraid to come

          4   to work.  He says, these inmates here, I don't have

          5   control, I'm afraid.  And he told me after he had

          6   gone through the training, it's not the pantasy of

          7   it basically, but he told me, I got some training

          8   and I came in this morning and felt the wards had a

          9   conflict.  He says normally I would have locked --

         10   before I would have locked the place down.  But, no,

         11   he walked up and started engaging them.  Next thing

         12   you know they were discussing NASCAR on the TV and

         13   how fast the cars go.  And he was able to channel

         14   their dialogue in a more positive way.  I'm not

         15   going to say that's reflective of all, but the issue

         16   to me is we're trying to fill positions, because we

         17   had huge vacancies.  I had over 4,000 pushed out.

         18   So if you're working double shifts, tired, yeah --

         19   so we're addressing that.  The other issue is we're

         20   breaking down and providing real tools for the

         21   staff.  We're -- had some major projects we can't do


                                                                       58

          1   statewide -- we're taking a series of prisons,

          2   reception center, GP, parole and starting to move

          3   through those -- how do we manage that institution,

          4   how do we identify the predators of the inmate

          5   population and move them out so we can create a safe

          6   environment.  Provide real tools for staff to manage

          7   that facility, create a safe environment and bring

          8   the resources in.  As we work through that in terms

          9   of training staff how to do that, how to reinforce

         10   our management strategies in terms of managing that

         11   population, as well as provide the encouragement for

         12   good behavior, we see positive results with that.

         13   Now, I wish I could tell you I could do that in all

         14   my prisons today.  I can't.  We're demonstrating to

         15   staff that we're going to hold inmates to their

         16   behavior.  And if you are willing to do your time

         17   and behave, you get some reinforcement.  That is

         18   starting to work.  And then those inmates who are

         19   the predators, we're taking some efforts to try to

         20   address that now and get those out of this business.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Mr. Secretary, how does


                                                                       59

          1   your department ensure accountability for the

          2   implementation of the state and federal PREAs?

          3   Whose job description does this responsibility

          4   reside on?

          5             JAMES TILTON:  I hate to point out, but I

          6   have an individual who you're going to hear from who

          7   is the associate director -- she heads my women's

          8   program.  At the same time she -- Wendy Still has

          9   picked up this as an issue.  And Wendy has clear

         10   access to me, to these issues, and I look to her to

         11   provide guidance to me of what I can do to reinforce

         12   the position of the PREA Act.  She has been

         13   invaluable in that effort, and I'm confident that if

         14   she believes the department is not being

         15   responsive -- she has taken on this issue very

         16   energetically, as well as lots of other issues she

         17   has, and so I lean on Wendy to let me know how we're

         18   doing and whatever I can do to assist in the

         19   implementation of PREA for both the federal and

         20   state level.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Finally, you mentioned


                                                                       60

          1   you're working with Stop Prisoner Rape.  I had heard

          2   that SPR has found it seemingly difficult to get

          3   into the facility that we're talking about this

          4   morning.  Do you --

          5             JAMES TILTON:  I had not heard that.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I hope it's not true.

          7   Do you have a system-wide policy or mandate that

          8   cooperation with community groups, advocacy groups,

          9   and others like these should be 100 percent --

         10             JAMES TILTON:  Yes.  In fact, I just

         11   recently established positions in all the prisons

         12   and that is going to be their responsibilities, to

         13   communicate with locals, as well as bring various

         14   providers from the communities into the prisons.

         15   It's one of those issues we have put in place.  But

         16   I haven't heard that.  I will follow up on that.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Thank you very much,

         18   Mr. Secretary.  Appreciate your coming and for your

         19   testimony and for your leadership in this area.

         20             JAMES TILTON:  Thank you.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  We will now call the


                                                                       61

          1   next panel.  Ms. Wendy Still, who Secretary Tilton

          2   was just introducing, as well as Lieutenant Timothy

          3   Riddle, Associate Warden Richard Anti, and Staff

          4   Nurse Lynn Thomas.  Good morning, welcome.  Raise

          5   your right hand.  Do you solemnly swear or affirm

          6   that the testimony you'll give the Panel today will

          7   be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

          8   truth?

          9             WITNESSES:  I do.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I think, Ms. Still, you

         11   wanted to go first.  Do you have any comments you

         12   want to make first or are you open to questions?

         13             WENDY STILL:  Actually, I do have a few

         14   comments.  On behalf of Mr. Tilton, I would just

         15   like to provide information that you requested of

         16   him relative to the ombudsman's budget.  Budget is

         17   $1.16 million.  Fourteen positions, 11 ombudsmen,

         18   one staff services analyst, and one executive

         19   assistant.  And also, yes, California is

         20   participating currently in a study very specifically

         21   on women's -- rape in women's institutions and


                                                                       62

          1   sexual assault.  Doctor Barbara Owen is the lead

          2   researcher on that effort.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  When are the results

          4   due on that?

          5             WENDY STILL:  I believe that she is going

          6   to have some preliminary results this spring, and

          7   I'm not certain her time frame for the actual

          8   publication of the final results.  Thank you for

          9   this opportunity to testify before the Review Panel

         10   on Prison Rape.  As Secretary Tilton said, I am the

         11   overall statewide coordinator, executive project

         12   manager for PREA.  But as you requested,

         13   specifically looking at what is the PREA

         14   coordinator's responsibility at Ironwood State

         15   Prison, the primary duties, I think it's important

         16   to note, are in addition to the staff person's

         17   regular responsibility.  And his regular

         18   responsibility is he's a facility captain, which

         19   means he runs a facility.  The normal duties of the

         20   coordinators are to liaison with headquarters and

         21   keep in touch with what the statewide changes are,


                                                                       63

          1   and then take that and communicate with the

          2   institution staff at the local level -- and

          3   communicate those policy changes.  That could be in

          4   the form of preparing a memorandum for the warden's

          5   signature and then disseminating it to staff.  Also,

          6   working with the in-service training manager to

          7   ensure that the training responsibilities and the

          8   training program is on track.  Every person working

          9   in a California prison mandatorily has to have

         10   four hours of training on PREA education, so the

         11   coordinator communicates with the IST manager to

         12   make sure the lesson plan is up-to-date.  Any

         13   changes received from headquarters, they are

         14   incorporated and revised into the training plan.

         15   Also, ensuring that the posters are up and

         16   throughout the facility, that the orientation and

         17   informational materials, including the inmate's

         18   rights, are consistently being provided to the

         19   inmate, and the videos are being ran.  Also, to work

         20   with the PREA education coordinator related to the

         21   PREA program on any changes that are needed and


                                                                       64

          1   communicated from down.  Also, taking headquarters

          2   and identifying challenges and issues, bringing that

          3   institutional-level feedback up to headquarters so

          4   we're aware of what's going on out in the field and

          5   that we can for a system-wide basis attempt to

          6   revise our policies and procedures around whatever

          7   the issues are.  And then also to be familiar with

          8   the research results -- for example, you mentioned

          9   Doctor Genesis's reports and findings.  And then, as

         10   they go about their duties, looking for ways in

         11   which they can further support our safety programs

         12   that we have.  And also communicate those ideas.

         13   Ours is unique, it has a PREA education and PREA

         14   coordinator program so we get a lot of good feedback

         15   from the institution.  I have not heard that the

         16   Stop Prison Rape was having a hard time getting into

         17   Ironwood.  I have not heard that.  We have a very

         18   good relationship with Louisa Stannow and also her

         19   staff, Linda McFarlane, so we will follow up on

         20   that.  But it's not been raised to our attention.

         21   We have a very good close working relationship with


                                                                       65

          1   them.  That's it, thank you.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Thank you.  Ms. Still,

          3   you've read obviously the BJS report on sexual

          4   violence.  What in your opinion, as the person most

          5   familiar with and responsible for implementation of

          6   PREA, is the explanation for zero incidents at

          7   Ironwood and yet a high incidence at the Valley

          8   State Prison and similar other prisons within the

          9   same system?

         10             WENDY STILL:  I think Ironwood, I believe

         11   they have a very effective program.  I've actually

         12   been down to the program, I've met with peer

         13   educators -- they are very effective.  Not only are

         14   they very effective in terms of enhancing the safety

         15   related to sexual assaults, but actually teaching

         16   the inmates how to protect themselves as they come

         17   into the system.  They also help protect and provide

         18   information on how to not spread STDs and talking to

         19   the inmate population.  They take that information

         20   and share it with their families.  So I think it's

         21   created the environment and culture not only to


                                                                       66

          1   staff -- well, staff are very dedicated to the

          2   program, but also inmates feel very safe about

          3   reporting.  And it's created that culture -- that is

          4   what our goal is, is to have a safe environment.  So

          5   I think the peer education program has had a major

          6   impact.  I think our statewide policies that we

          7   provided in training tools for both the staff as

          8   well as the inmates, you know, knowing their rights,

          9   all of that, I think all of those things have had a

         10   very positive effect.  Taking that and moving over

         11   to the women's prison, which I'm very familiar with,

         12   Valley State Prison, and why they have a high rate

         13   of reported incidents -- if you break down the

         14   incidents, it was inmate-on-inmate incidents.  And

         15   they are touching issues.  And I believe that this

         16   is a sign that's just indicative of the issues that

         17   women bring to prison.  They have poor relationships

         18   on the outside, they have poor boundary issues, and

         19   many of them come from abusive relationships.  So

         20   they have very significant boundary issues as well

         21   as lots of trauma in their lives.  And I believe


                                                                       67

          1   that that adds to, when they come in -- we're

          2   overcrowded in the women's institution, just like

          3   the men's.  We were built for four to a dorm and

          4   we actually have eight.  I believe that that's --

          5   the overcrowdedness is creating a problem.  But I

          6   also believe we need to develop a successful

          7   intervention on teaching women on how to have

          8   healthy relationships and how to have improved

          9   boundaries.  I've actually had some discussions with

         10   NIC and the Moss Group about my desire to move

         11   forward.  We also are participating in the study,

         12   the -- Doctor Barbara Owen's study, to further

         13   understand.  And in addition to that we volunteered

         14   Valley State Prison for Women to be one of the

         15   institutions or pilots to help set the standards.

         16   So we're continuing looking for ways to help improve

         17   that safety.  As well as staff.  The warden at the

         18   local level has met with her executive managers and

         19   they are doing several things, also, to ensure that

         20   their program is on track, which it is with the

         21   orientation materials and the brochures, and just a


                                                                       68

          1   heightened educational awareness of staff of what to

          2   be looking for and talking to the inmates about.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  A federal grant was

          4   awarded to you last -- a year ago, August, for a

          5   pilot program to examine the effectiveness of

          6   cameras as a deterrent.  And Secretary Tilton

          7   mentioned you're moving forward with some cameras.

          8   We understand those have been purchased, but tell me

          9   about the pilot where -- have you increased the

         10   number of video surveillance, is it audio as well or

         11   just video, and which institutions are participating

         12   in the pilot?  Ironwood, I understand, is not one of

         13   them.

         14             WENDY STILL:  That's correct.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How about Valley State

         16   Prison?

         17             WENDY STILL:  Yes, Valley is one of them.

         18   The goal of the pilot is to create a better

         19   detection or enhance a detection part of our

         20   program, as well as prevention.  And one of the

         21   elements -- it was actually through an NIC meeting


                                                                       69

          1   that the Moss Group arranged back in Arizona quite

          2   some time ago, hearing about what the different

          3   states had done.  I was very interested in the

          4   cameras.  I thought that that really -- the use of

          5   cameras had some merit and could help us in those

          6   two areas, prevention and detection.  And so we

          7   applied for the grant and received it.  The

          8   California Correctional Institute up at Tehachapi is

          9   one of the pilot institutions.  Valley State Prison

         10   for Women is another institution.  And in our DJJ

         11   facility, juvenile facility, at Ventura where the

         12   girls are at, is the third institution.  And we have

         13   the security cameras, we have installed the cameras,

         14   and we're just getting ready to go live with them.

         15   And the cameras are -- they are monitoring -- we put

         16   a work group together to determine where the

         17   appropriate placement of the cameras would be at,

         18   and we're placing them in areas where we feel that

         19   inmates could be in an at-risk situation.  And

         20   basically it's areas where an inmate could become

         21   isolated.  Might have, you know, a mop closet or a


                                                                       70

          1   culinary area.  Basically, we're going to be like a

          2   private room.  So the cameras will be monitoring

          3   those areas.  But also very important is to take

          4   into consideration, because they are in the housing

          5   units, the inmates' privacy.  Privacy is a very big

          6   part of their recovery, their self-esteem and

          7   self-efficacy.  So the way that -- we position the

          8   cameras in where the housing units are at so that

          9   they can't see into the actual units themselves.

         10   Basically, they see the doorways and just can

         11   monitor movement in and out so we can see if an

         12   inmate was going out of the dorm cell and into

         13   another area.  But --

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I'm sorry, were you

         15   finished?

         16             WENDY STILL:  I was just going to say that

         17   we think also the cameras -- what the goal of it is

         18   is to measure the incidence of overfamiliarity or

         19   reports of assault in the facilities that have --

         20   the facility that has a camera versus a facility --

         21   compared to those that do not.


                                                                       71

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Aren't cameras only as

          2   good as the number of staff that you can afford to

          3   have watching them, or is it just a prophylactic

          4   effect, they never know if somebody is watching them

          5   so it's an inhibitor?

          6             WENDY STILL:  I think there are two

          7   positive aspects to them.  One is, yes, absolutely,

          8   I think it has a prophylactic effect, but I also

          9   think that if you have -- because you do pick up

         10   intelligence that something may be going on.  You

         11   always have the ability to go back to the camera and

         12   watch.  It's continuous recording, it records to a

         13   DVD basically in a computer, and it's retained for

         14   30 days.  So I think that's also excellent in terms

         15   of for an investigative tool.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you find that

         17   victims of sexual assault many times will not report

         18   the next day, but rather it might be a couple months

         19   before they get up the courage to report an

         20   incident?  And, if so, what good is that tape going

         21   to be if it's been erased?


                                                                       72

          1             WENDY STILL:  Part of the problem with

          2   technology now is the storage-capacity levels of

          3   what you need.  In terms of -- we're very surprised

          4   at that.  But I would say that, yes, some don't

          5   report for quite some time, and I don't generally

          6   find it's two or three months.  It can be, you know,

          7   periods of time long after that.  And it's because

          8   of recovery.  I mean, it's very traumatic, the

          9   assault has a very traumatic effect, and sometimes

         10   it's months or even years later that they are

         11   willing to say something.  But for those incidents

         12   that occur, and a majority do -- and the majority of

         13   reports do come -- especially in the safer

         14   environment that you create in terms of inmate

         15   reporting, then the more timely the information will

         16   come.  But also predators, that's what I consider

         17   any staff that basically sexually assaults an

         18   inmate, they typically have a pattern also.  So it

         19   is a very good preventative tool and an

         20   investigative tool.

         21             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Good morning,


                                                                       73

          1   Ms. Still.  Nice to see you again.  I recall how

          2   helpful you were when we were in California.  Is it

          3   a crime for a staff member to have consensual sex

          4   with an inmate?

          5             WENDY STILL:  Absolutely it is, because

          6   there is no such thing as consensual sex with an

          7   inmate.  The inmate does not have the power to give

          8   consent.

          9             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  So the degree of the

         10   crime, is it a misdemeanor or felony?

         11             WENDY STILL:  Felony.

         12             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Felony.  How many of

         13   your staff have been criminally charged with sexual

         14   misconduct?

         15             WENDY STILL:  I'm sorry I don't have that

         16   information off the top of my head.  I'll be glad to

         17   get it for the Panel.

         18             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  And if they were

         19   charged, if there is a number there that you can

         20   report, what was the range of their sentences, if

         21   any; and is staff ever allowed to resign in lieu of


                                                                       74

          1   a full investigation?

          2             WENDY STILL:  They are absolutely not

          3   allowed to resign in lieu of.  In the event that

          4   there is any type of misconduct and the staff

          5   resign, we still complete the investigation and we

          6   still, if we have enough material, turn it over to

          7   the D.A. for prosecution, irregardless of whether

          8   that staff resigns or not.  In addition to that, the

          9   completed investigation, even if there is not enough

         10   to go forward with the prosecution, the completed

         11   investigation is retained and notice is in the

         12   employee's file.  So in the event that the employee

         13   ever tries to come back, that information is there

         14   and it will prevent that employee from coming back.

         15   And in terms of the prosecutions, every case that we

         16   can substantiate is referred to the district

         17   attorney for prosecution, and then it's up to the

         18   D.A. whether they will prosecute or not.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you know of a single

         20   correctional officer in your tenure that's been

         21   prosecuted successfully for sexual assault?


                                                                       75

          1             WENDY STILL:  In my tenure, I don't know

          2   of a case off the top of my head.  I know that we

          3   have had one.  I don't know if it was a correctional

          4   officer.  I know it was a correctional staff.  I'll

          5   have to get the specifics and get back to you.  What

          6   we really focus on is -- we focus on ensuring that

          7   we identify the behavior, that we do a thorough

          8   investigation, and we turn it over to the D.A. and

          9   then they take the appropriate action -- and that

         10   the staff is barred from ever coming back inside the

         11   facility.  After it hits the prosecution -- and then

         12   what happens to that staff person after that --

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That's out of your

         14   hands.

         15             WENDY STILL:  It's really -- my focus is

         16   really on what's happening inside.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Staff sexual misconduct

         18   hasn't been a felony for a long time.  And do you

         19   find that district attorneys are particularly

         20   motivated?  They have to do the triage, they have to

         21   decide what's worth their time and what isn't.  Do


                                                                       76

          1   you find that sexual assault by staff or by inmates

          2   within an institution is a high priority for D.A.s?

          3             WENDY STILL:  I think the D.A.s have a lot

          4   of cases they have to prosecute.  I don't think they

          5   have enough resources, and I think the answer to

          6   that significantly varies county to county depending

          7   upon their priorities and how overburden their case

          8   loads are.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you have one county

         10   in mind in California that is exceptionally astute

         11   and motivated, apparently, to prosecute -- at least

         12   investigate and to prosecute?

         13             WENDY STILL:  There isn't one that stands

         14   out.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How about

         16   administrative discipline?  Do you know of any CDCR

         17   staff, not just correctional officers, who have been

         18   administratively disciplined in any facility for

         19   staff sexual misconduct?

         20             WENDY STILL:  Oh, absolutely.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you have any idea


                                                                       77

          1   how many?  Say in 2006 or 2007?

          2             WENDY STILL:  I don't have the total

          3   number in terms of how many were disciplined.  What

          4   I will say, and I'll certainly be glad to get you

          5   that information, is that staff sexual misconduct,

          6   it's one of the most severe types of rule

          7   violations, and we take it very seriously.  If there

          8   is misconduct, staff are terminated, period.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  If you could include in

         10   your numbers the number that have been terminated

         11   for staff sexual misconduct, that would be great --

         12   in any period, 2006, 2007, last ten years, whatever.

         13             WENDY STILL:  Absolutely.  We have that

         14   data and I think you'll find that we consistently --

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  This would be very

         16   helpful because every prison we're going to hear

         17   from this week has a zero tolerance policy.  Every

         18   one of them look great on paper.  To be very frank,

         19   it's great to hear the people are committed, but the

         20   proof in the pudding is how many folks does this

         21   actually get implemented against, if it's happened.


                                                                       78

          1   Not looking for sacrificial lambs, but if your own

          2   study indicates four percent of random selected

          3   males having sexual assault, one would expect to see

          4   some prosecutions and some discipline.  That would

          5   be the proof in the pudding.

          6             WENDY STILL:  There will absolutely be a

          7   number of terminations.  And in addition to that, I

          8   want to go back to your question about which county.

          9   In -- Madera County has been -- it's been reported,

         10   and that's where our two women's prisons are at, in

         11   terms of our prosecution.  That county does come to

         12   mind.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What kind of

         14   activities, Ms. Still, would constitute staff sexual

         15   misconduct as you understand it?

         16             WENDY STILL:  Well, any type of -- any

         17   type.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  When does a pat-down

         19   become sexual misconduct?

         20             WENDY STILL:  Well, California has

         21   eliminated cross-gender pat-down searches for women.


                                                                       79

          1   We did that about two years ago.  And we did that

          2   because of concerns that were raised by the women

          3   that the pat down by men was re-traumatizing to them

          4   because so many of them have been prior victims of

          5   sexual abuse.  And we're very pleased with that.

          6   It's had a very good effect in terms of managing the

          7   population and creating a safer environment and

          8   also -- now, in converse, because in the men's

          9   prison, men have not been subjected to the same

         10   level of trauma as women inmates have, so therefore

         11   it is permissible for women to pat search male

         12   inmates.  So we do have gender-responsive policies

         13   and they are each different depending on the gender

         14   of -- whether it's the male inmate or the female

         15   inmates.  And our policies are supported by what's

         16   been upheld and tested in the courts.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about a staff

         18   verbally degrading -- not touching, but verbally

         19   degrading a prisoner in sexual terminology,

         20   especially in the presence of other inmates?

         21             WENDY STILL:  Definitely that would be


                                                                       80

          1   considered a violation of policy, not only from a

          2   PREA perspective but also from a respect -- you

          3   know, all staff are expected to remain professional

          4   and treat each other with dignity and respect.  So

          5   if they were to be saying things that were of a

          6   sexual nature, derogatory -- whether it be

          7   derogatory or otherwise, then they would be

          8   violating our codes --

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you think it

         10   happens?

         11             WENDY STILL:  Do I think it happens?

         12   Absolutely I do.  And I would say, and I hate to

         13   admit this, but I would say probably in my women's's

         14   prison is where I have the biggest challenge.  We

         15   actually did something about it because of my

         16   concerns.  We created 40 hours of training

         17   specifically for staff that are working with women.

         18   And, on many different levels, it's really important

         19   for staff to understand the differences so they know

         20   how to deal with them, in addition to providing

         21   training and education in terms of how to deal with


                                                                       81

          1   the difference in the populations, the men versus

          2   the women.  Also taking actions against staff.  I

          3   mean, that's really where the rubber meets the road,

          4   is if staff are mistreating, whether it's verbal

          5   mistreatment or any other kind, is taking

          6   appropriate action against them because that sends a

          7   message.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about withholding

          9   privileges, rec time, writing them up for, you know,

         10   arbitrarily, unless they provide sexual favors for

         11   the officer?  Would that be sexual misconduct?  No

         12   touching, no verbal degrading, just, hey, you're not

         13   going to the yard.

         14             WENDY STILL:  Absolutely.  I would deem

         15   that as coercion, the behavior.  That's how we would

         16   classify it.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And that would be a

         18   disciplinary violation?

         19             WENDY STILL:  Yes, it would be.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Would that be a crime?

         21             WENDY STILL:  Well, it depends upon the


                                                                       82

          1   nature of it.  If it was being withheld because of

          2   sexual -- you know, the staff person wanted sex,

          3   absolutely it would be.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How about if a staff

          5   person wanted to -- had voyeuristic, not any

          6   touching but I want to see you in the shower or

          7   you're not going to have rec time?

          8             WENDY STILL:  Yes.  Any action that

          9   basically is taken against an inmate because -- that

         10   is sexual in nature, whether it's touching or not,

         11   whether it's voyeurism, whether it's the language

         12   even as they're referring to the population, all of

         13   those things should be considered a violation of

         14   policy.  I think we're talking about standards here,

         15   and I would fully support that.  Because it's all

         16   those things that add up to creating an environment

         17   where the inmates aren't safe, and it's those

         18   building blocks to the actual physical assault.  So

         19   if you don't stop it in the very beginning, it leads

         20   to more and more endangering of that inmate.  And

         21   any of it is wrong.  They come to prison, they're in


                                                                       83

          1   prison to serve their time, period.  And they should

          2   not be subjected to any of those forms of sexual

          3   harassment or misconduct.  We're trying to

          4   rehabilitate them, we're trying to teach them how to

          5   be good citizens.  And if we ourselves can't behave

          6   as such, how can we expect the inmates to ever

          7   rehabilitate themselves?

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How do you separate the

          9   alleged predator from the victim?  What's the

         10   protocol you expect?

         11             WENDY STILL:  Well, if we have

         12   intelligence that we have actual staff sexual

         13   misconduct, more often than not the staff person is

         14   put out on administrative time off while the

         15   investigation ensues.  That's one way to quickly get

         16   that person out of the prison, working in the

         17   prison.  And the reason for that is if they would

         18   have assaulted one inmate, there is a potential to

         19   endanger the safety of others.  Sometimes, if we

         20   have some intelligence, kind of a different factor

         21   is, if we don't know we have enough intelligence to


                                                                       84

          1   really catch someone, we may put them in an

          2   administrative area where there's no inmate contact

          3   just until we can put them in ISU, investigative

          4   services perspective -- develop into enough

          5   intelligence for us to determine whether or not

          6   there's probable cause that something is occurring.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Would it be fair to say

          8   that often it's a swearing contest, so to speak,

          9   between the credibility of the staff, the alleged

         10   predator, and the inmate?  The inmate -- the camera

         11   shows the CO going into the cell, as you said

         12   earlier, can't see in the cell.  And there -- he or

         13   she is in there for some period of time, and there's

         14   a disagreement as to what was going on.  What kind

         15   of intelligence do you need?  I mean, you have an

         16   inmate saying he forced me to do such and such, and

         17   the CO of course says, no, I was doing a search for

         18   contraband.

         19             WENDY STILL:  Generally, our assaults

         20   don't take place in the cells, because in a women's

         21   prison, the Valley, which is where the majority of


                                                                       85

          1   the female population is at, other than one smaller

          2   prison down south, there is eight women to a dorm.

          3   And there's full glass windows as you go down.  So

          4   there's clear visibility, and I think that provides

          5   adequate protection for the women.  So that's not

          6   typically where an assault would occur.  It would

          7   occur in a broom closet or some other isolated area

          8   where there isn't inmate traffic and clear

          9   visibility.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How about same-gender,

         11   inmate-on-inmate alleged assault?

         12             WENDY STILL:  Well, inmate-on-inmate

         13   alleged assault, now that's where you typically find

         14   it does happen in the actual dorm.  But to get back

         15   to your question of when it comes down to

         16   credibility, there is a credibility factor.  You

         17   have staff and then you have inmates, and you have

         18   to have enough proof that something is going on.

         19   And each individual incident, it's the totality of

         20   circumstances.  And even if you can't prove it the

         21   first time around, I know our investigative services


                                                                       86

          1   unit is down -- we had an incident at one of our

          2   women's prisons, and I was talking with the warden,

          3   and what she had talked about is just how closely

          4   they monitor, even if they can't prove it the first

          5   time around, the staff person's behavior, to ensure

          6   that nothing else is going on or, if something is,

          7   that we're picking up and detecting it.  And there's

          8   things -- how you find out about it is just not by

          9   the action of what's going on in the prison.  I

         10   mean, staff, you know, you can find -- there's love

         11   notes written or contraband given to the women, or

         12   whether it be male or female, special privileges.

         13   There are a lot of indicators that our investigative

         14   services unit can look for and do to try and prove,

         15   versus -- you know, even if it's words, one word

         16   against the other, looking for all of those other

         17   factors that can prove and demonstrate what was

         18   going on.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What do you think the

         20   chances are of a fellow officer providing testimony

         21   against the alleged predator officer?


                                                                       87

          1             WENDY STILL:  I really feel comfortable in

          2   saying that, because Secretary Tilton said, our

          3   system has done so much work on the code of silence

          4   that if one officer knew that another officer was

          5   doing anything sexual in nature with an inmate, that

          6   they would tell.  Because they know not only would

          7   that one staff person get fired, they would get

          8   fired also.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That's the

         10   repercussions for the witness.

         11             WENDY STILL:  Yeah.  If they had knowledge

         12   and they didn't tell and they didn't do anything

         13   about it, absolutely.  They are as guilty for

         14   protecting.  And we don't find that happening now.

         15   I mean staff will come forward and they will -- if

         16   there's something going on, they will say -- they

         17   will tell someone.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is the failure to

         19   report a crime?

         20             WENDY STILL:  Failure to report.  I don't

         21   think the failure to report is a criminal act, but


                                                                       88

          1   it's certainly an administrative act if it can be

          2   proven.

          3             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  How quickly and how

          4   responsive would staff be to a complaint from an

          5   inmate who might be celled with someone who is

          6   abusive?  Would that happen instantaneously?  And

          7   how quickly would the system respond to an inmate

          8   who reports a staff violation, a misconduct?  Is

          9   there a downtime when that individual may be left in

         10   an environment where intimidation could continue or

         11   abuse could continue?  Or is that person immediately

         12   cordoned out?

         13             WENDY STILL:  I would say that the rule of

         14   thumb is that the person is immediately cordoned

         15   out.  When I say that -- if there's an allegation

         16   about a staff person, I'll describe what happens to

         17   that staff person.  If there is any type of evidence

         18   to prove that it could be true, like I said, more

         19   often than not they are often ATO immediately.  Now,

         20   if an inmate -- I will tell you what the policy

         21   says.  If an inmate comes forward and complains


                                                                       89

          1   about -- raises concerns about their safety or makes

          2   complaints about staff misconduct, we look at the

          3   individual circumstance, and that's what our

          4   policies say also, because our responsibility is to

          5   protect that inmate.  And so either we move that

          6   inmate to another facility or put that inmate in

          7   administrative segregation, because sometimes not

          8   knowing -- say for example if it's an

          9   inmate-on-inmate issue, you don't know what other

         10   inmates may harbor a grudge or take some type of

         11   retaliatory action.  So the totality of the

         12   circumstance is going to determine where you move

         13   the inmate to or if you move the inmate.  But you

         14   will always, per policy, take immediate action to

         15   protect or come in and to remove whatever the safety

         16   issue is from the -- what was -- what was creating

         17   the safety concern.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Thank you, Ms. Still.

         19   We're going to now turn to Lieutenant Riddle.  Good

         20   morning.  Do you have any initial statements you

         21   want to make?


                                                                       90

          1             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I'm ready for questions.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How long have you

          3   worked in corrections, sir?

          4             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  25 years.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how long have you

          6   worked at Ironwood?

          7             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Approximately 14.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is there a SART team at

          9   Ironwood?

         10             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  There's not a SART team

         11   per se.  I believe there's only one institution that

         12   has the whole assembled team.  I do field part of

         13   the responsibilities for that team.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What are those

         15   responsibilities?

         16             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  My responsibilities come

         17   into play as soon as there's an allegation made of

         18   inmate-on-inmate or staff-on-inmate sexual abuse of

         19   any kind.  So I respond immediately.  Some of my

         20   other team members will also respond immediately,

         21   assuring the parties are separated, making sure


                                                                       91

          1   evidence is collected.  I also ensure that other

          2   steps are taken, that he gets taken to an outside

          3   hospital, where also evidence will be collected.

          4   Just to make sure the whole process works.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What other positions

          6   have you had at Ironwood?

          7             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I have worked on the

          8   facilities as a correctional sergeant.  I came to

          9   Ironwood as an officer and went into the

         10   investigations unit as an officer, promoted to

         11   sergeant, was out on the main lines of the field, if

         12   you will, came back into the investigation unit as a

         13   sergeant, promoted to lieutenant, went back out to

         14   the field, spent a year or so out there, and then

         15   came back into the investigations unit.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Have you had duty in

         17   one of the residential units at Ironwood?

         18             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I've had a lot of

         19   contact.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So you're well familiar

         21   with where the blind spots would be in that


                                                                       92

          1   facility?

          2             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Yes, I am.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  If you wanted to, as a

          4   staff member, wanted to sexually assault or -- or

          5   even, quote, consensual activity with an inmate,

          6   where would you do it at Ironwood?

          7             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  First, let me say that

          8   the design of prisons have improved a great deal.

          9   When I started at Soledad years ago, there were far

         10   more many blind spots.  The design and layout gives

         11   the staff much greater field of view.  There are

         12   fewer blind spots.  They do exist.  For a staff

         13   member to do something in a housing unit would

         14   almost require them to go either into a cell that

         15   had less view of the other officers, which would be

         16   difficult because the other officers are watching

         17   each other constantly to protect each other.  They

         18   would have to go into what they call a supply room,

         19   or where they keep the cleaning supplies.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What time of day would

         21   you want to do that if you were doing it in a


                                                                       93

          1   residential unit?  What shift?

          2             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  That's difficult to say.

          3   I mean there are always other staff that are

          4   observing you.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Always the same

          6   number --

          7             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  No, it does lessen during

          8   first watch, which is 10:00 to 6:00 in the morning.

          9   There are less staff; however, it would be a

         10   difficult process to pull an inmate out of the cell

         11   and then go into a broom closet.  The behavior would

         12   be so unusual that the control booth officer who is

         13   watching the whole unit would take note of that.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Outside of the

         15   residential unit then, anywhere in -- that an inmate

         16   has access to or could be taken?  Where would you

         17   want to do that?  Where would be the safest place

         18   for staff to do that?

         19             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Most unseen places are at

         20   least monitored by other staff, such as the

         21   libraries.


                                                                       94

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Kitchen.

          2             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  The kitchens, back where

          3   they prepare the food.  There are some education

          4   areas that are less monitored where, at times,

          5   you'll have a teacher and an inmate student that

          6   might even be by themself.  That would be the prime

          7   opportunity.  That's generally during the daytime.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Are those teachers

          9   taught anything about sexual assault, are they given

         10   the PREA training?

         11             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Yes, they are.  Every

         12   employee at Ironwood is given that training.  They

         13   have what we call block training and they are

         14   required to go to the training.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is there any intention

         16   that you're aware of -- well, let me ask, is there a

         17   need for video cameras at some of these blind spots

         18   that you mentioned?

         19             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  As an investigator, I

         20   would love to see cameras everywhere.  I understand

         21   the need for privacy also, but I also understand the


                                                                       95

          1   climate that we work in is very dangerous at times.

          2   Given the two, you know, I can see a common ground

          3   somewhere where there is more cameras.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And obviously the

          5   limitations of budget, but where would you most want

          6   to put your first cameras at Ironwood?

          7             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Well, the thing about

          8   Ironwood is, because our sexual staff assault, or

          9   inmate-on-inmate, either, is such a low rate, our

         10   primary problems are different.  Our staffing

         11   assaults on inmates, our drug problems, that would

         12   place our cameras in different areas.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  If we were at Soledad,

         14   where would you want to have your first cameras put?

         15             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Culinary; in the housing

         16   units.  Some of the day rooms there in Soledad are

         17   very isolated, darker than some are.  Those would

         18   be -- like the library maybe.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I think Ms. Still said

         20   that there are eight to a bunk.  Eight to a dorm

         21   rather than four.


                                                                       96

          1             WENDY STILL:  Only in the women's prison.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That was the Valley.

          3   But what's the -- is Ironwood a dorm-style or is

          4   it --

          5             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  The only dorm settings we

          6   have are in our gymnasiums and in our level-one

          7   facility.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And the gymnasium has

          9   what, medium security?

         10             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Medium.  Well, generally

         11   the inmates that go in there are prime to go to the

         12   minimum facility to meet that criteria.  But they do

         13   live in a level-three environment.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Are they triple-bunked?

         15             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  We used to have some, I

         16   don't think we do any more.  Just double.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how many do you

         18   have in the gym?

         19             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  It varies.  The

         20   population varies.  It generally stays around 160 I

         21   think.


                                                                       97

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  One hundred sixty in

          2   the gym.

          3             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I think so.  He thought

          4   it was a little high.  Maybe 120.  I don't count the

          5   inmates too often.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What's the environment

          7   or culture in -- in your facility as to the topic of

          8   sex?  In other words, how are -- in the housing

          9   units, in the yard, in the dining room, you're going

         10   to hear a lot of sexual jokes, monitors, stories.

         11   There are going to be sexualized labels, names,

         12   folks, either staff or inmates, calling one another,

         13   you now, queens or fags or queers or cocksuckers or

         14   anything else.  Is that -- am I accurate that that's

         15   going to happen at Ironwood like any other prison?

         16             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I wouldn't say that it

         17   doesn't happen, because, you know, people are

         18   people.  I will say that it has improved

         19   dramatically over the years.  Years ago it was much

         20   worse.  Training has had a great improvement on

         21   that.  Our disciplinary process has made a big dent


                                                                       98

          1   in that because they know the consequences.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What are the

          3   consequences for a staff person who uses sexualized

          4   or derogatory -- keep it to sexualized comments,

          5   jokes, labels, towards an inmate?

          6             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  It's taken very seriously

          7   because it's considered harassment.  It will not be

          8   tolerated.  As soon as the conduct is discovered,

          9   actions are taken.  More than likely that officer

         10   will be removed from that position.  We will

         11   investigate it, because if those comments are being

         12   made, we're wondering, well, what else is going on?

         13   Investigate that.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  In your 14 years at

         15   Ironwood, how many -- how many of your fellow staff,

         16   including officers, have been disciplined in that

         17   way for that reason?

         18             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  It would be hard for me

         19   to give you a number.  There have been more than

         20   several.  Ranging from love letters to touching

         21   to -- had an officer who received a tattoo.  The


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          1   variety of conduct is pretty wide-ranged, but it's

          2   all been handled the same way, I would say.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Several in your 14

          4   years.

          5             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I would say it's higher

          6   than several.  I can't give you an accurate number.

          7   I would have to research the documents to find that.

          8   Fourteen years, if I had to give an estimate,

          9   probably 15 to 20.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And what do you expect

         11   or what do you find at Ironwood is the response of

         12   other officers if one officer labels an inmate a

         13   queen or something else of a sexualized nature?  Do

         14   you expect the officers -- in fact, do the officers

         15   run and tell the lieutenant, or do they just smirk

         16   and pretend they didn't hear it or something in

         17   between or what?

         18             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I would say that a

         19   majority is reported.  We do get a lot of reports

         20   from inmates as well as staff.  Like I said, the

         21   climate has changed a lot over the years, where they


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          1   know that there's going to be discipline, you know,

          2   you cover up a --

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Who would get those

          4   reports?

          5             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Ultimately -- again, it

          6   would be the facility lieutenant probably, or

          7   sergeant, and go through the chain of command and

          8   end up in my hands.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So you're going to know

         10   at Ironwood every -- ultimately every accusation or

         11   report of staff sexual harassment --

         12             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I should be, yes.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And it's your testimony

         14   that 15 to 20 folks have been disciplined at

         15   Ironwood for some kind of sexual harassment?

         16             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Over the past 14 years.

         17   It's a very rough number.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  But there would be

         19   written records of that?

         20             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Yes.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And is that something


                                                                      101

          1   we can see?

          2             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I'm wondering, do

          3   you -- do you have reports coming from gay men who

          4   are in prison, transgenders?  Do you have a number

          5   of complaints of sexual abuse coming from those

          6   populations?

          7             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I believe we have

          8   received a few.  I don't believe our population on

          9   those aspects are very high, that I'm aware of.

         10             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Are there any special

         11   kinds of protections that you have in place for

         12   individuals?

         13             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I know they are monitored

         14   very closely.  The staff in the housing units are

         15   very aware of who they are, they watch them closely

         16   because they know the likelihood of them being

         17   approached is much higher.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Lieutenant Riddle, you

         19   provided us with an evaluation of complaints in

         20   calendar 2006, and there are six summarized.  I had

         21   questions about four of them.  Are you familiar


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          1   with, for example -- well, is the identity of those

          2   complainants something you would like to keep

          3   confidential?

          4             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Absolutely, if possible.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So should I use a

          6   number or just hand you the, you know, the summary

          7   that you provided?

          8             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Well, if I hear the

          9   details of what happened, I should recall it.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And what about the

         11   officers that are involved, their names need to be

         12   withheld as well?

         13             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Yeah, our investigative

         14   files are highly confidential.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Okay.  Well, one event

         16   involves allegation of an officer who abruptly

         17   touched an inmate's penis as he conducted a clothed

         18   body search.  And we're wondering if there is any

         19   relationship between the investigator in that

         20   case -- occurred allegedly on January 23, 2006 --

         21   any relationship between the investigating


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          1   lieutenant, who was not yourself, and the subject of

          2   the investigation, that correctional officer alleged

          3   to have done this improper search.  Do you have that

          4   document in front of you there?

          5             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I believe I got it.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  It's entitled -- the

          7   document is entitled Evaluation of CDCR-Ironwood

          8   Prison Inmates' Complaints, Calendar Year 2006.  If

          9   you don't have it, we will come back to it, I'll get

         10   a copy of it made for you.

         11             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Just trying to make sure

         12   I had the right one.  Could you say the date of

         13   that?

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  January 23, 2006.

         15             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  That's the date of the --

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Of the allegation.  The

         17   alleged incident was to have occurred on that date.

         18   And after appeal through all three levels, a

         19   disposition was that it was denied on July 26, '06.

         20             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I'm not sure if I'm

         21   finding that.


                                                                      104

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I'll come back to those

          2   and we will get you a copy.  In your experience,

          3   Lieutenant Riddle, who are the inmates who are most

          4   vulnerable, most likely to be victimized in a

          5   prison?

          6             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  What I've seen in the

          7   past is generally younger, first-term inmates for

          8   the most part.  They are not familiar with inmate

          9   politics too well.  They are seen as being weaker.

         10   They are not as experienced in the system as some of

         11   the other ones are, so they are more easy to take

         12   advantage of.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How about

         14   developmentally disabled?

         15             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Absolutely.  I haven't

         16   seen too much of that.  Generally, those inmates are

         17   not -- don't want to say tormented, but they are not

         18   really picked on as much as you might think.  At

         19   least in my experience.  In fact, I've seen other

         20   inmates protect those inmates.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is gang membership an


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          1   issue?

          2             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  It's a very big issue.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Why is that?  Well, I

          4   mean an issue with respect to your likelihood of

          5   being victimized or not?

          6             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Yes, absolutely.

          7   Especially in, and I believe this to be true in most

          8   of the southern prisons, they have a very high

          9   Hispanic gang population.  Their own internal

         10   politics are very strict on any kind of sexual

         11   behavior.  We've had numerous stabbings where if

         12   someone comes in, the crime they committed on the

         13   street is sexually related, they will stab them.

         14   They don't tolerate that kind of behavior.  Exactly

         15   what generated that philosophy is kind of up for

         16   speculation, maybe it's their home values they

         17   receive when they are younger.  I don't know.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So sex offenders, those

         19   who are in for a sex offense, they are targeted.

         20             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  They are often targeted.

         21   Every once in a while they will give them a chance


                                                                      106

          1   to leave the facility, to lock up so to speak, or

          2   seek safety protective custody, as they used to call

          3   it.  Sometimes they will just stab them.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about a new fish

          5   that does not have, to your knowledge -- have a gang

          6   affiliation?  Does that person run the risk of being

          7   more vulnerable because there's less likelihood of

          8   retaliation or protection by gang members?

          9             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  That's a possibility.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That hasn't been your

         11   experience?

         12             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Not really.  Like I said,

         13   it has declined over the years.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What has declined over

         15   the years?

         16             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Sorry?

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Sorry, what has

         18   declined over the years?

         19             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Oh, it seems, from what

         20   I've seen, that the rape rate has declined a little

         21   bit over the years from what I've seen in the past.


                                                                      107

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  The rate of

          2   inmate-on-inmate assault?

          3             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Yes.

          4             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  In terms of those

          5   people who come in and are most vulnerable, or for

          6   anyone coming in, any inmate coming into the system,

          7   what kind of orientation are they provided with, a

          8   realistic orientation?  I know that they receive a

          9   lot of instruction regarding their life in prison,

         10   but what kind of realistic down and dirty

         11   orientation do they receive just about the issues

         12   we're talking about?  From officials, not necessary

         13   other inmates.

         14             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I think that one of the

         15   best things I've seen at Ironwood is, after they

         16   have come into the receiving and release unit, they

         17   see the video and everything, they go to a

         18   centralized location, into a housing unit, which is

         19   called the reception housing unit, where they are

         20   classified and go over the different directions.

         21   There's some very good officers that work in that


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          1   unit, and I believe they spend a lot of time

          2   communicating to those inmates, getting them

          3   adjusted to Ironwood and what they will be facing,

          4   how the programs work and those types of things.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Lieutenant, if a

          6   staff-on-inmate assault is alleged, when does the

          7   correctional officer or the correctional staff, who

          8   is accused, see the witness's or victim's

          9   statements?  At what point in the process are they

         10   supposed to be given a victim statement?

         11             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Not until far in the

         12   process, because the reports are collected and

         13   evidence is collected.  The warden will tell me to

         14   generate what we call a 989, which is an

         15   authorization to conduct an investigation or request

         16   to conduct an investigation.  We send that to our

         17   central intake unit, which is the Office of Internal

         18   Affairs.  They look at it, make a determination

         19   whether actually it should require an investigation.

         20   Once they approve it, it's sent to Southern Region

         21   investigators.  They investigate the matter.  After


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          1   that investigation is completed, it comes back to

          2   the institution to our employer relations officer,

          3   and then they confer with the warden and come to a

          4   decision.  Some point after that, there's a hearing

          5   that takes place.  They don't see those documents

          6   until that hearing takes place.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  As a practical matter,

          8   though, is there anything secretive in prison among

          9   the staff?  Has it been your experience that the

         10   accused actually doesn't know who has accused him or

         11   her of the assault?

         12             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  That's pretty rare.  I

         13   mean people know things, especially the people that

         14   might have witnessed it.  Are they supposed to talk

         15   about it?  No.  If we find out they do, we deal with

         16   that as well.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And I notice on one of

         18   the documents that you provided there is a reporting

         19   telephone line to OIA, internal affairs.

         20             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Yes.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is this used by


                                                                      110

          1   inmates?

          2             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Yes, they have used it --

          3   had responses back from the Office of Internal

          4   Affairs.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Staff use it?

          6             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Not that I've ever heard

          7   of.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Staff hasn't been

          9   beating down the doors to call internal affairs

         10   about their fellow staff person?

         11             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  No, sir.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Well, it turns out that

         13   the -- actually, the documents have -- that I was

         14   going to give you have some of our work product on

         15   it, so we're going to just have to -- what would you

         16   suggest?

         17             ROBERT SIEDLECKI:  Give them the case

         18   number.

         19             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  That will help.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you have that?  Do

         21   you have the -- any of those investigation reports?


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          1             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I see the appeals that

          2   were executed on that.  I have six in front of me.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Well, the first one

          4   involves a -- the rough touching over a clothed body

          5   search.  Do you have that there?

          6             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Make sure I have the

          7   right one here.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Occurring allegedly on

          9   January 23, '06.

         10             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Okay.  Sir, I have that

         11   one.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you remember being

         13   involved in this investigation?

         14             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I don't believe I was.  I

         15   think my predecessor was more involved in this one.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How long have you been

         17   the equivalent of the sergeant -- had your sexual

         18   assault responsibilities at Ironwood?

         19             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I had those

         20   responsibilities for quite a while.  However, there

         21   was a period when I made lieutenant that I was in


                                                                      112

          1   and out of the unit and there was also another

          2   investigative lieutenant there.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Would you look at the

          4   third case, which is -- alleges an incident during

          5   the third week of March of '06, and first two weeks

          6   of April, '06?  Do you have that?

          7             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Third one?

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Yeah, it was denied on

          9   January 29 of last year.

         10             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Okay, I believe I see

         11   that.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  This involves -- as you

         13   were testifying earlier, about the culinary

         14   location.  This involves a verbal exchange with a

         15   correctional officer.  Were you involved with this,

         16   do you remember this particular investigation?

         17             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I don't believe so.  You

         18   have to understand that part of the process of the

         19   appeals is it does go through this investigative

         20   process.  If it's determined by the investigator and

         21   the higher staff member that no further actions --


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          1   if they don't sustain the allegations here, it may

          2   not make it to my office.  It does not each time.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Just given the

          4   information about the number of witnesses, for

          5   example, there were at least -- there were some

          6   disparities among the inmate witnesses, at least

          7   three of whom, in addition to the inmate

          8   complainant, made allegations of the inappropriate

          9   sexual behavior by the correctional officer.  But

         10   those witnesses' testimony were -- was discounted.

         11   And, of course, I think it would be fair to say the

         12   traditional behavior of many inmates, if not most,

         13   is not to get involved, so the observations of the

         14   four other witnesses employed in the kitchen that

         15   they didn't -- didn't hear anything is not too

         16   surprising.  Is it common and appropriate to

         17   discount the observations of multiple witnesses to

         18   staff sexual misconduct?

         19             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I don't think it's

         20   common.  I think what happens is -- what lieutenants

         21   are taught, and sergeants actually do these queries,


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          1   is to look at the circumstances as a whole.  They --

          2   when they interview these inmates, they have to find

          3   out were they really in the area, were the other

          4   ones that aren't saying anything, were they in the

          5   area just not saying anything?  Or, you know,

          6   someone is saying yes, I saw it happen and weren't

          7   even assigned to that area, weren't even there that

          8   day, is a big contributing factor to things such as

          9   this.  Generally, if I might add, these statements

         10   seem very simple.  If you're going to get really

         11   good testimony from someone on something they have

         12   seen, generally you get a little more detail about

         13   what happened -- some verbal exchange or even

         14   physical actions, things as simple as where they

         15   were sitting or standing, and tell you if they

         16   actually saw what they saw.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Several of these

         18   incidents occurred in the C facility.  Is that

         19   facility known to be a bit more tolerant of

         20   unacceptable sexual harassment?

         21             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Not that I'm aware of.


                                                                      115

          1             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Only question I would

          2   have -- in the first instance that we discussed, the

          3   first case, is the accused individual still

          4   employed, and have there been any other allegations

          5   against him that you can tell us?

          6             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  On the first one?

          7             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Yes, the first one.

          8             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  Can I go back to that

          9   real quick?

         10             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Yeah.

         11             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  I believe that employee

         12   had one other instance of something of a verbal

         13   nature a few years ago.  I believe it was -- let's

         14   see the date on that.  I believe it was before this

         15   date, if my memory serves me correctly.  I know it

         16   was investigated; I believe that the findings were

         17   not substantiated, if I can remember correctly.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So you'll be able to

         19   provide us with the number of staff that have been

         20   disciplined during your tenure at Ironwood for any

         21   kind --


                                                                      116

          1             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  The ERO's office can, for

          2   the disciplinary aspect.  Because I don't do the

          3   business --

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What's the ERO?

          5             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  That's the employer

          6   relations officer.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Well, thank you,

          8   Lieutenant Riddle.  I think we're out of questions.

          9   But we want to get to Associate Warden Anti.  Thank

         10   you for your patience, Warden.  Is there anything

         11   you wanted to clarify or mention to us?

         12             RICHARD ANTI:  Only thing I might clarify.

         13   When you were talking to Lieutenant Riddle -- you

         14   have different officers who conduct business

         15   differently.  Some people are very black and white,

         16   go by all the rules and regulations, and other

         17   people are a little more tolerant and give a little

         18   leeway.  A lot of times if one person is very black

         19   and white, we see more complaints regarding that

         20   person because the inmates don't like them.  And by

         21   filing the appeals, a lot of times they are trying


                                                                      117

          1   to get that person removed from that area so that

          2   they can conduct the business that they want.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That's helpful.  Just

          4   for the record, Mr. Anti, what are your

          5   responsibilities at Ironwood?

          6             RICHARD ANTI:  I'm the associate warden,

          7   acting, central operations.  Central operations is

          8   tasked with filling the watches and security outside

          9   the prison.  Each facility is run by an individual

         10   captain.  Two facilities are under other individuals

         11   that oversee that.  So I have the armory, visiting,

         12   the watch office, inmate assignment, personnel

         13   assignment, the outside patrols, all under my

         14   jurisdiction.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Inmate assignment and

         16   staff assignment.

         17             RICHARD ANTI:  Yes, sir.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So you would be the

         19   responsible officer at Ironwood to decide on housing

         20   assignments, bedding assignments, for inmates.

         21             RICHARD ANTI:  When they come in through


                                                                      118

          1   R&R, which falls under mine -- yes, we do the

          2   intake, we determine through several different

          3   things, not versus just the race and gang

          4   association, where they can be housed.  All inmates

          5   arriving at Ironwood State Prison initially go to

          6   C-1, which is our intake building.  At that time,

          7   within 14 working days they are classified and then

          8   they are put out to one of the four facilities or to

          9   our local one, which is Ironwood.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How many new prisoners

         11   will arrive at a given time?

         12             RICHARD ANTI:  It depends on our intake,

         13   what they are doing, what the State is doing, the

         14   intake that we're taking in.  We don't have a -- I

         15   know you're looking for like a number like 40 a

         16   week.  We have had intake of 180 in one week and as

         17   low as ten on another week.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And would they come --

         19   would they come in one bus or --

         20             RICHARD ANTI:  No, normally several buses.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Over a number of days.


                                                                      119

          1             RICHARD ANTI:  Over the week, yes, sir.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  At any one time what's

          3   the most new fish that you would have arriving?

          4             RICHARD ANTI:  You mean off a bus?

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Off a bus.  How many

          6   folks are you going to have to place at one time,

          7   find beds for?

          8             RICHARD ANTI:  We have had four buses

          9   arrive in one day, and that was 120 inmates.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And do you have a tool

         11   by which you use to determine how to assign them,

         12   where to assign them?

         13             RICHARD ANTI:  As I said, all inmates go

         14   into C-1, our intake building, and we fill out the

         15   form, the 1882.  We interview the inmate.  The 1882

         16   initial housing review is done by either a sergeant

         17   or lieutenant -- goes through what they are in there

         18   for, committed offense, gang association, how long

         19   they are in for, if they are parole violated return

         20   to custody.  It also has their age, race, religion.

         21   We look at all these factors when we try to put the


                                                                      120

          1   inmates together.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about medical

          3   history?

          4             RICHARD ANTI:  Yes, medical is also there.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How much medical

          6   history do you typically get from the referring

          7   agency, be it jail or prison?

          8             RICHARD ANTI:  That goes to the medical

          9   department.  All inmates are interviewed by an R.N.

         10   at the reception center, and they are the ones that

         11   tell us if there is any medical restrictions we have

         12   to be aware of such as low tier -- anything along

         13   those lines.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about sexual

         15   assault?

         16             RICHARD ANTI:  We ask on this form, the

         17   1882, we actually ask that, "While incarcerated or

         18   jailed in prison have you ever been sexually

         19   assaulted, i.e. pressured, fondled, raped, as a

         20   victim, as an assailant, non-inmate claims or

         21   documents."  We review the C file for that.


                                                                      121

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Other than asking the

          2   inmate that question, do you have any corroborating

          3   information in front of you when you make your

          4   housing classification?

          5             RICHARD ANTI:  We're looking at their

          6   central file, their documentation.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Would the central file

          8   have information about sexual assault?

          9             RICHARD ANTI:  If the inmate has been in

         10   before, yes.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about the jails,

         12   are the jails telling you?

         13             RICHARD ANTI:  Yes, the jails now are

         14   putting into the files that come in any infractions

         15   that happen in the jail because we award

         16   disciplinary points for that when we figure out the

         17   classification score at the reception center.  So if

         18   they have been a victim there, then we're notified.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  When did that start?

         20   When did you start learning from L.A. County Jail

         21   about whether an individual had been sexually


                                                                      122

          1   assaulted under their custody?

          2             RICHARD ANTI:  I can't give you an exact

          3   date.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Year ago, 20 years ago?

          5             RICHARD ANTI:  You're talking -- the

          6   reception centers are the ones that primarily handle

          7   that, and we're not a reception center.  I mean, we

          8   have been cognizant of it for a long time, the jails

          9   have worked with us very well.  In fact, if they

         10   have an inmate that is a special need inmate for

         11   whatever reason, say he was raped or sensitive need,

         12   high priority -- notoriety or something like that,

         13   they normally -- I've been in the department 15

         14   years, so, you know, I've seen it during that time.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you ask -- does

         16   anybody ask, either at intake or the reception

         17   center, about sexual orientation of the inmate, the

         18   new inmate?  Do you ask them if they are gay, ask if

         19   they are lesbian, do you ask them if they're

         20   transgender?

         21             RICHARD ANTI:  That would be at the


                                                                      123

          1   reception center.  I'm not sure exactly how they

          2   approach that.  Most inmates when they come into

          3   Ironwood, you know, if they have a certain housing

          4   criteria that they are requesting, if it's not

          5   obvious, you know, like a transgender or something

          6   that's going through, you know, right now they will

          7   normally bring it up.  Because each one is

          8   interviewed privately in a room so that they can

          9   say.  One of the questions we ask, do you have any

         10   safety concerns, is there anything we haven't

         11   covered that you want to bring forward, any special

         12   needs?  Medical as well.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  The question of sexual

         14   orientation doesn't appear on the 1882, does it?

         15             RICHARD ANTI:  No, sir.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So unless it was

         17   volunteered in that -- by the inmate, and the inmate

         18   knew that that was relevant information, it's not

         19   going to be asked by the staff; is that right?

         20             RICHARD ANTI:  Yes, sir.  They will be

         21   treated appropriately unless they bring something


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          1   forward that's going -- that we have to look at

          2   different housing.

          3             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Obviously you feel it

          4   shouldn't be asked?

          5             RICHARD ANTI:  I didn't say that, ma'am.

          6             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Well, should it be

          7   asked?

          8             RICHARD ANTI:  We're not -- it's part of

          9   what we're taking into our housing.  If they are

         10   bringing it forward and feel that because of their

         11   gender, or sexual preference, that they need special

         12   housing, then we will look at it that way.  But we

         13   have to take everything into consideration when

         14   we're housing these inmates.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How long might they be

         16   in C-1, the intake, before their final housing

         17   classification is done?

         18             RICHARD ANTI:  They have to be classified

         19   within 14 working days.  That's a mandate, sir.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So if the inmate did

         21   not volunteer the information that he had been


                                                                      125

          1   sexually assaulted or that he was a sexual predator,

          2   that inmate would be housed for up to almost three

          3   calendar weeks in C-1 without any special

          4   arrangements having been made to protect him; is

          5   that correct?

          6             RICHARD ANTI:  Just like any other inmate,

          7   sir, he's counted as visual officers walking by

          8   visually checking on him, 24/7.  We count five times

          9   a day.  The officers in the reception center, or the

         10   reception unit, are a little more aware to look for

         11   signs of new inmates coming in that have not been in

         12   the system before.  Because not only do you have to

         13   look at this, but you have to look at suicide,

         14   mental health issues.  So when they go to the

         15   showers, or if an inmate is refusing to shower, that

         16   will send up a signal.  When you're taking their

         17   meals -- we have to visually see them when we're

         18   counting them and talk to them.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  When four buses with

         20   120 inmates roll in one day, how much time does your

         21   staff have with each of them to make their housing


                                                                      126

          1   classifications during that 14-day period?  How much

          2   time would they typically spend interviewing?

          3             RICHARD ANTI:  Well, they are interviewed

          4   in R&R and this form is filled out, and then they go

          5   to the housing unit, to C-1.  At that time, if the

          6   inmate brings up the problem, the floor staff with

          7   supervisors on that facility would then deal with it

          8   or make housing arrangements.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  R&R is the reception

         10   center?

         11             RICHARD ANTI:  No, that's receiving and

         12   release.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Receiving and release.

         14   And is that under your jurisdiction?

         15             RICHARD ANTI:  Yes, sir.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So you're familiar with

         17   what they do and don't ask in R&R?

         18             RICHARD ANTI:  Pretty much, sir.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Just so I'm clear,

         20   before a final housing classification is made during

         21   that 14 working day period --


                                                                      127

          1             RICHARD ANTI:  Excuse me, that's 14

          2   calendar days.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Calendar days.  During

          4   that two weeks before the housing classification is

          5   finalized, what information beyond the questions on

          6   the 1882 form do you have and you deem relevant to

          7   have to make that classification, other than what

          8   the individual volunteers when you ask the open

          9   question, is there anything else you want to tell

         10   us?

         11             RICHARD ANTI:  The counselors have to go

         12   through the central file and present -- and they do

         13   a workup.  At that time, they again present all the

         14   relevant information, the case factor, the history,

         15   their age.  And that is presented before a chair

         16   person, which has to be chaired at the level of

         17   facility captain or above -- captain or above.

         18   During that, you have a CC-2, CC-1, and a captain

         19   minimum, on that panel.  You can also have the

         20   education department there.  ISU often has

         21   representatives there.


                                                                      128

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  ISU, sorry?

          2             RICHARD ANTI:  Investigation services

          3   unit.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That would be

          5   Lieutenant Riddle?

          6             RICHARD ANTI:  His staff; not him.  He's

          7   got too much else to do.  And also, we have the

          8   input from the officers in C-1.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you have

         10   administrative segregation or protective custody?

         11             RICHARD ANTI:  We have administrative

         12   segregation, yes, sir.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And is that under your

         14   jurisdiction?

         15             RICHARD ANTI:  No, sir, that's under

         16   facility A captain -- I believe facility A and B.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Who is the AW,

         18   associate warden, who makes the decisions about who

         19   comes and goes out of that segment?

         20             RICHARD ANTI:  No, he doesn't make the

         21   decision on that, sir.


                                                                      129

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  He just oversees.

          2             RICHARD ANTI:  He oversees the housing.

          3   If an inmate is placed into administrative

          4   segregation, that has to be at the level of

          5   captain -- I mean lieutenant or above, that assigns

          6   the 114-D segregation notice.  Then the captain the

          7   next day will go and either make a determination

          8   within one working day to retain that inmate or

          9   release him.  If he retains them, then within ten

         10   days he has to be seen by the institutional

         11   classification committee, which is chaired by either

         12   the warden or the chief deputy or his designee, and

         13   they are the ones who make the determination whether

         14   to make him stay or leave.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is your ad seg unit

         16   overcrowded?

         17             RICHARD ANTI:  Do we have an overflow?

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Yes.

         19             RICHARD ANTI:  At this particular time,

         20   yes.  When I left there we had ten inmates in

         21   overflow.


                                                                      130

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That means that they

          2   are where?

          3             RICHARD ANTI:  They are in a building

          4   adjacent to it.  They are A-4 and A-5.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how many to a cell?

          6             RICHARD ANTI:  Two to a cell; same as in

          7   ad seg.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I understand -- final

          9   question.  What is the day -- does the ad seg unit

         10   look like?  Is it 23-hour-a-day lockdown, one hour

         11   out?

         12             RICHARD ANTI:  No, sir.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  No.  What does a day in

         14   the shoe look like -- ad seg look like?

         15             RICHARD ANTI:  They get two hot meals a

         16   day, breakfast and dinner.  Then a bagged lunch.

         17   They also have rotation for shower -- one shower

         18   every three days.  They also have yard privileges,

         19   which is normally a three-hour block, and they have

         20   to have ten hours within a week.  So they go to the

         21   yards at different times.


                                                                      131

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  With the general

          2   population?

          3             RICHARD ANTI:  No, these are all

          4   administrative segregation yards.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Which is your own

          6   fenced area?

          7             RICHARD ANTI:  Yes, sir.  Also -- then

          8   they also have medical appointments they go to, they

          9   have law library, classification, and visiting on

         10   the weekends, and that's behind glass.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How about any

         12   programming?

         13             RICHARD ANTI:  Programming how, sir?

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I'm sorry?

         15             RICHARD ANTI:  Programming as in what?

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  As in do they attend

         17   any vocational training, any kind --

         18             RICHARD ANTI:  No, sir.  We do have mental

         19   health in there.  They are very actively working in

         20   there, medical in there, and then mental health as

         21   well.


                                                                      132

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about their job

          2   assignment, their yard job assignment?  I take it

          3   they are excused from that as well.

          4             RICHARD ANTI:  No, they are required --

          5   removed from it per se.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And would an inmate

          7   who -- who would be put into the administrative

          8   segregation?

          9             RICHARD ANTI:  There is three reasons for

         10   an inmate to be placed in administrative

         11   segregation.  One, safety and security to the

         12   institution.  If he batters another inmate or

         13   something along the line, that line.  Safety of

         14   self.  Inmate comes up and says, I can't stay out

         15   here, I owe drugs, I'm being pressured for sex,

         16   whatever.  And the third is preserve the integrity

         17   of an ongoing investigation.  And the fourth is if

         18   there's no other housing available in the

         19   institution, inmate is received in R&R and we need

         20   to house them somewhere.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So you could have an


                                                                      133

          1   alleged victim of sexual assault in ad seg?

          2             RICHARD ANTI:  Yes, sir.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And would they be

          4   treated any differently than an alleged predator,

          5   sexual predator?

          6             RICHARD ANTI:  They would make sure mental

          7   health was there and they were observed.  We now

          8   have in ad seg -- all inmates coming into

          9   administrative segregation have a 15-minute check

         10   for two weeks to make sure that the confinement

         11   isn't causing them to have a mental problem that

         12   could possibly lead to suicide.  Those 15-minute

         13   checks are documented and monitored and collected.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  But as far as any of

         15   the other conditions that you just described about

         16   life in the ad seg, it's not going to differ between

         17   an alleged victim and an alleged predator?

         18             RICHARD ANTI:  No.  Unless mental health

         19   says that he needs to be moved or re-housed in a

         20   different area.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Thank you very much,


                                                                      134

          1   Associate Warden.  Ms. Thomas, thank you for being

          2   with us.  Thank you for your patience in waiting.

          3   How long have you worked in corrections?

          4             LYNN THOMAS:  This would be 13 years.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how long at

          6   Ironwood?

          7             LYNN THOMAS:  Thirteen years total

          8   Department of Corrections and I've been at Ironwood

          9   that entire time.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  When do you have direct

         11   communication with inmates?

         12             LYNN THOMAS:  I'm a public health nurse

         13   there, so I overlook all the infectious disease

         14   cases.  I see them at clinics.  If I'm called over

         15   to the reception center, an inmate comes in with

         16   concerns, the reception center nurse will call me --

         17   concerns that something is in the medical file that

         18   might be a public health issue, I'll interview them,

         19   talk with them.  I conduct a peer education program

         20   at the prison.  I train inmates regularly at the

         21   prison.  Between medical clinics and interviewing


                                                                      135

          1   them for sexually transmitted disease, whether they

          2   have syphilis, gonorrhea, HIV, hepatitis, I'm

          3   interviewing them and counseling them and discussing

          4   their health issues and referring them to better

          5   medical care.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do inmates need to take

          7   the initiative to request a sick call or something?

          8             LYNN THOMAS:  They present a form to -- a

          9   medical request form to us.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you make rounds?

         11             LYNN THOMAS:  I was going to address a

         12   couple things.  You did say about the two weeks in

         13   that C-1.  The nurse is coming through twice a day.

         14   There is a nurse assigned on the C facility.  She

         15   needs to go in there twice a day to do rounds.  And

         16   she goes to every new arrival, to their window, and

         17   collects -- asks them, do they have a form to fill

         18   out the medical requests?  They go around and

         19   collect those forms twice a day in that facility

         20   specifically, and that will happen even when the

         21   prison is on lockdown.


                                                                      136

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Does the inmate have to

          2   ask for a form?

          3             LYNN THOMAS:  It's available in the

          4   housing units.  They're readily available.  There's

          5   also a request for interview.  I get a lot of those,

          6   where they just have questions about their -- they

          7   don't really want to see the doctor per se.  They

          8   have questions on how this disease -- what about my

          9   family, what about this?  And they can just have an

         10   interview and bring them in to talk.

         11             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Are you trained as a

         12   SANE nurse?

         13             LYNN THOMAS:  Say that one again.

         14             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Are you a SANE nurse?

         15             LYNN THOMAS:  No, I'm not.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Sexual assault nurse

         17   examiner?

         18             LYNN THOMAS:  I try to be sane, but not

         19   S.A.N.E.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  You appear to be.  What

         21   about rape kits.  Do you have rape kits?


                                                                      137

          1             LYNN THOMAS:  The rape kits, I believe

          2   investigations --

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Lieutenant Riddle has

          4   the rape kits?

          5             LYNN THOMAS:  Yes.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And going back to

          7   Lieutenant Riddle.  What training have you and your

          8   staff received about use of rape kits?

          9             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  We have training, which

         10   is a basic and advanced detection training.  We've

         11   also gone to Mericose pathology to be recertified as

         12   an evidence technician.  They cover that -- the rape

         13   situations, photography, evidence collection.

         14   Primarily, we rely on the R.N.s that are certified

         15   to do the actual rape kit collection.  Once they

         16   have got all that collected, sealed and signed, and

         17   make sure it's taped up correctly and everything, we

         18   will take it from them, take control of it, and make

         19   sure the chain of custody is intact and take it to

         20   the Department of Justice of California where they

         21   process it.


                                                                      138

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Ms. Thomas, maybe you

          2   could walk -- if you would, walk us through the

          3   process when you get a sick call notice or somebody

          4   slips you a note on rounds saying, I've been raped,

          5   I've been assaulted, I need to see you.  What do you

          6   do?

          7             LYNN THOMAS:  That's going to be

          8   immediate, you know, response.  That's not going to

          9   be waiting for another timeframe.  We immediately

         10   take them out of their cell, wherever they have

         11   addressed that situation, the nurse will have them

         12   escorted to medical and begin the process of

         13   immediate evaluation.  If they begin to tell us that

         14   it was more than 72 hours since the incident, you

         15   know -- again we're going to be calling

         16   investigations right away, we're going to be calling

         17   the doctor on-call, the watch commander.  And

         18   depending on if this has just happened and evidence

         19   collection needs to take place, or did this happen

         20   prior to coming here, mental health is going to be

         21   brought in immediately.  We're going to be --


                                                                      139

          1   there's immediate -- if this just occurred, of

          2   course we're going to begin the steps of our

          3   checklist discussed:  was there traumatic injury; do

          4   they need to be seen at a hospital immediately for

          5   traumatic injury; and do they need HIV prophylactic

          6   medication or not?  Is this something that just

          7   happened?  We're going to go through the complete

          8   steps for that.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How old would the

         10   incident have to be before a -- some kind of a

         11   forensic exam, physical exam, would be unfruitful?

         12             LYNN THOMAS:  That's going to be

         13   determined -- we're going to be speaking to the

         14   forensic SART location that we have a contract with.

         15   We go to Pioneer Hospital, to Eisenhower Hospital,

         16   Riverside Hospital, and that would be spoken with

         17   that SANE nurse.  She will be determining -- I want

         18   him brought in anyway right now, bring the evidence

         19   and go on and process.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What's been your

         21   experience as to how many hours or days a forensic


                                                                      140

          1   examination is desired or necessitated by the

          2   on-call hospitals?

          3             LYNN THOMAS:  To be honest with you, at 13

          4   years, I've not had one in my shifts working at the

          5   prison.  I've not had one rape or sexual assault

          6   case come through while I am there, and even heard

          7   of.  If it wasn't first watch when I'm not there, I

          8   believe we're investigating it immediately.  The

          9   patient would be given to investigative services.

         10   Also, again, they are calling to the SART location

         11   and they are telling us that they want him brought

         12   in or not.  It's kind of determined by these

         13   specialists.  Again, if this patient was -- if it

         14   happened before, a year ago, mental health -- we

         15   have a request form immediately, we just make a

         16   phone call.  Mental health is there and we would be

         17   seeing that patient right away.  It would be under

         18   our direct supervision, make sure they are in no

         19   harm's way.

         20             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Am I to understand

         21   that you're saying you have not had a case?


                                                                      141

          1             LYNN THOMAS:  Per se for myself to

          2   witness.  That they did not go out immediately or

          3   not, I cannot -- I have not seen a case of rape or

          4   sexual violation between inmates.  When there was an

          5   allegation of one, the inmate -- I know they just

          6   said may be a possible sexual assault.  Again, that

          7   patient was immediately -- the process was started,

          8   the patient was taken out of our institution.  I

          9   think in retrospect I heard that it was not.  The

         10   patient wanted protective custody and he wanted to

         11   get out of the situation and get off the yard.  And

         12   sometimes they will use that to get out of their

         13   housing unit or their yard or something like that.

         14             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  But there would be a

         15   protocol in place if one occurred to allow you to

         16   swing into action, collect the evidence, ensure that

         17   the victim is not returned to the environment?

         18             LYNN THOMAS:  That's correct.

         19             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Receives assistance,

         20   counseling?

         21             LYNN THOMAS:  The suspect and the victim


                                                                      142

          1   will be immediately separated.  Our TTA's are well

          2   trained, our emergency room nurses are well trained.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That's triage.

          4             LYNN THOMAS:  Triage and treatment area.

          5   They are well trained to begin this process.  They

          6   have a checklist placed right there for them to call

          7   all the transportation teams, the doctor, get the

          8   proper forms, get the patient moving in the right

          9   direction.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is your medical staff

         11   expected to report, whether the alleged victim wants

         12   you to or not, report any suspected or actual sexual

         13   assault?

         14             LYNN THOMAS:  Say that one more time.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I'm trying to explore

         16   to what extent you have an obligation to report.

         17             LYNN THOMAS:  Right.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What if the victim

         19   says, I'm scared of retaliation, this guy has gone

         20   silly, they are going to know --

         21             LYNN THOMAS:  There is a form that the


                                                                      143

          1   patient can revoke.  He can say he does not want to

          2   go through the reporting system, his forensic

          3   testing, and all the details.  He can say what part

          4   he does not want to have happen.  I believe that the

          5   form says that he can try to, you know, keep his

          6   name free from it.  At that point, we have to take

          7   care of the patient, we have to assess their

          8   concerns right now, and we encourage them strongly

          9   to go ahead and get this reported.  I do believe

         10   they can -- as far as the victim of sexual crime

         11   form, there's a place where they can say they choose

         12   not to.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Can that veto your

         14   reporting?  I mean, if they check that box, you will

         15   not tell folks?

         16             LYNN THOMAS:  I don't -- because that's

         17   not my specialty area, I can't say we don't.  I

         18   would say that this patient is going to be cared for

         19   at that prison properly.  I believe, Mr. Riddle, if

         20   they say they do not want to report this --

         21             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  That's just a matter of


                                                                      144

          1   it becoming public record.

          2             LYNN THOMAS:  Public record, okay.

          3             TIMOTHY RIDDLE:  They can choose whether

          4   or not to have it publicized.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So they check the box,

          6   that just means they want to keep it out of the

          7   public record.

          8             LYNN THOMAS:  They also have to consent to

          9   have the forensic testing done.

         10             WENDY STILL:  There is a differentiation

         11   between medical exam.  All correctional staff have

         12   an absolutely mandatory duty to report.  If there's

         13   something that's jeopardizing an individual's

         14   safety, whether it's sexual assault or not, they

         15   have a mandatory reporting requirement.

         16             LYNN THOMAS:  We're reporting it as far as

         17   the inmate saying he's not going to participate in

         18   the forensic testing.  As far as us, a medical

         19   professional or teacher, anyone working at a prison,

         20   has to report if something has been told.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  It's not discretionary?


                                                                      145

          1             LYNN THOMAS:  No.  I wasn't sure whether

          2   you meant as far as the whole process of the

          3   forensic testing.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So what about, what

          5   happened to the confidentiality between the medical

          6   professional and the patient?

          7             LYNN THOMAS:  I know under mental health

          8   they may have other guidelines, but for us we do

          9   have to report to our immediate supervisor what's

         10   been told to us, and that is that the patient is

         11   saying he's been sexually harassed and it has to be

         12   reported.

         13             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  And investigated, the

         14   investigation.

         15             LYNN THOMAS:  Yes, and conduct the

         16   investigation.

         17             RICHARD ANTI:  You have to remember, all

         18   crimes are investigated any time there's an

         19   allegation.  We have a mandate to follow the laws.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Well, unless anyone has

         21   any elaboration on an earlier answer, we thank each


                                                                      146

          1   of you for your time.  And we're going to now ask

          2   for the Warden of Ironwood to come forward, and

          3   Ms. Debra Dexter.  Thank you very much.  Good

          4   morning, Ms. Dexter.  Would you raise your right

          5   hand, please?  Do you solemnly swear or affirm that

          6   the testimony you'll give the Panel today will be

          7   the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

          8   truth?

          9             DEBRA DEXTER:  I do.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Thanks for being here.

         11   How long have you been in corrections?

         12             DEBRA DEXTER:  Twenty-two years.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how long at

         14   Ironwood?

         15             DEBRA DEXTER:  About a year and three

         16   months.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And as warden the

         18   entire 15 months?

         19             DEBRA DEXTER:  I was chief deputy warden

         20   for a couple of months, and then I was a warden

         21   February 13th of last year, as the acting warden.  I


                                                                      147

          1   was appointed by Governor Schwarzenegger on November

          2   the 2nd of 2007.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  2007.  Yes.  Were you

          4   at Ironwood when the BJS inmate survey was taken?

          5             DEBRA DEXTER:  Not the initial one, no.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you have personal

          7   knowledge about the process and -- that was used in

          8   that survey?  In other words -- or was it just kind

          9   of word of mouth?

         10             DEBRA DEXTER:  No, I'm fairly familiar

         11   with it.  And at a warden's conference about a year

         12   ago they went over it and a presentation was given

         13   to staff.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Well, in your 15 months

         15   at Ironwood, is it fair to say you're pretty

         16   familiar with the physical plant?

         17             DEBRA DEXTER:  Oh, absolutely.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That's pretty

         19   fundamental.

         20             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes, I hope by now.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  If someone wanted to


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          1   engage in a sexual act in Ironwood's -- anywhere in

          2   Ironwood, where would be the best place, from the

          3   point of view of avoiding detection?

          4             DEBRA DEXTER:  Well, I have to agree with

          5   Lieutenant Riddle, I would think the culinary.

          6   Also, I would tend to think our canteen area; where

          7   we have our laundry areas.  Those places tend to

          8   have a few more blind spots.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  The canteen, culinary,

         10   and was there something else?

         11             DEBRA DEXTER:  And also our laundry.  Our

         12   laundry room.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And you single out

         14   those because there are -- there is the chance for

         15   one-on-one contact between an inmate and a staff?

         16             LYNN THOMAS:  Yes.  Normally, it's just

         17   one staff member in there.  Of course, the staff

         18   member has an alarm if they're working with a couple

         19   more inmates.  So -- be fairly easy if you wanted to

         20   compromise yourself to be found doing something like

         21   that in those areas.


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          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Are there -- what are

          2   you doing to prevent sexual assault from happening

          3   in those vulnerable areas?

          4             DEBRA DEXTER:  Well, basically what the

          5   Department of -- as a whole has done, just with the

          6   constant training, to orientation, and just asking

          7   my staff in general.  I consult with the staff to be

          8   a little bit more proactive in being out and

          9   checking in those areas.  So basically that's about

         10   all that we're doing.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you feel you have

         12   enough staff to make the rounds sufficiently to

         13   avoid compromising situations?

         14             DEBRA DEXTER:  If you'll ask any warden

         15   here -- and let me tell you, we never have enough

         16   staff.  We could of course always use more staff,

         17   but what we try and do, of course, is try to be more

         18   proactive in holding staff accountable of being out

         19   there and actually making the rounds.

         20             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  How would you explain

         21   the low incidence of sexual assault at your


                                                                      150

          1   facility?

          2             DEBRA DEXTER:  You know, I really -- I

          3   want to go back to our inmate peer education

          4   program, because I do brag on it and I think it's

          5   absolutely the best in the State of California, and

          6   I would probably even venture to say nationwide.  We

          7   have a very proactive team.  We train the inmates.

          8   We have currently about 130 inmates, and we graduate

          9   them about every six -- we do classes about every

         10   quarter, every six weeks or so.  And we -- they

         11   spend approximately three hours on just talking

         12   about sexually transmitted diseases.  And we have

         13   also -- because we believe in it so much, we have an

         14   operational procedure, also a dedicated correctional

         15   captain to the inmate peer education program, and

         16   those are the types of things that we discuss.  So I

         17   think by the inmates being a little bit more

         18   educated on disease, I venture to say that it

         19   probably helps a little bit.  And along with that is

         20   because of the peer education, we haven't had any

         21   major outbreaks of infections at the institution.


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          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Has that peer education

          2   program progressed to other institutions to your

          3   knowledge?

          4             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes, and actually currently

          5   Ms. Linda Still is working on developing it

          6   statewide.  It has been introduced, but I don't

          7   think to the level it has been at Ironwood.  And I

          8   give that -- basically all the credit to my staff

          9   and especially to Nurse Thomas, because it is an

         10   unfunded position and so she tends to volunteer

         11   quite a bit of her time in putting it out there.

         12   And because we have been successful, we just really

         13   believe in it.  And actually what we have had --

         14   we've been able to get the inmates to totally buy

         15   into it, and now we have staff that also buy into

         16   it.  Most recently we had an outbreak at an

         17   institution about five miles from mine, we had about

         18   500 inmates sick.  What we initially did at our

         19   institution was -- first thing we did was put our

         20   peer educators out there and try to, you know, to

         21   help with diffusing any panic among the population


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          1   and providing them with health information.  So I am

          2   100 percent behind it and I think that in reporting

          3   our low numbers of sexual assault I venture to

          4   believe that has something to do with it.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How many of your staff,

          6   to your knowledge, have been disciplined for

          7   inappropriate sexual harassment or misconduct?

          8             DEBRA DEXTER:  When you asked that

          9   question to Lieutenant Riddle I got on the phone and

         10   called the institution.  And since 1998 we have had

         11   13 cases of staff that have been terminated for

         12   having some sort of relationship with an inmate.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And criminal charges,

         14   do you have that?

         15             DEBRA DEXTER:  I'm not sure about the

         16   criminal charges.  Most of the time we terminate

         17   them.  And whether or not the district attorney -- I

         18   think two of the cases that I had submitted we did

         19   try and prosecute, and the district attorney's

         20   office denied to pick it up.  But as far as

         21   administratively, we have terminated them.


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          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you think that your

          2   facility is overcrowded?

          3             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes, it is.  Right now,

          4   with what California is doing in being proactive, in

          5   my institution most recently I was able to

          6   deactivate about 500 beds, and that's because we

          7   have started to send inmates out of state.  But

          8   currently, April or May, I'm scheduled to deactivate

          9   another about 400 beds, which would take the inmates

         10   out of my gyms.  At one time, we had inmates in the

         11   gyms and we also had them on the housing room

         12   floors, which was very difficult to manage.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  In those circumstances

         14   of overcrowding, how do you ensure inmate safety,

         15   including sexual assault?

         16             DEBRA DEXTER:  What we do do is hire

         17   additional staff and just -- basically that's it, we

         18   just hire additional staff.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Hire additional staff

         20   rather than overtime?

         21             DEBRA DEXTER:  I was going to say, we hire


                                                                      154

          1   them on overtime.  We don't get any new positions

          2   for it, but we hire the overtime for coverage.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  When we're talking

          4   about overtime, we're talking about 16 hours on the

          5   job, not a limit of eight hours, but working six or

          6   seven days a week; is that correct?  In other words,

          7   if somebody is working overtime, they are doing two

          8   shifts?

          9             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yeah, they could be.  It

         10   varies.  They could do a consecutive shift or hire

         11   someone to do a typical eight-hour shift.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you have the

         13   prerogative under your collective bargaining

         14   agreement with the union to hire new folks, or is

         15   your option limited to overtime for existing staff?

         16             DEBRA DEXTER:  Limited to overtime for

         17   existing staff.  I'm budgeted for so many positions,

         18   and I hate to say at one time Ironwood, even within

         19   the last year, we were very short-staffed.  But as

         20   of today we've got about 13 extra staff, so the

         21   Department has done a lot to kind of assist in that


                                                                      155

          1   area -- so I'm not hiring as much overtime as I

          2   normally would.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And what was the

          4   staff-to-inmate ratio last year?

          5             DEBRA DEXTER:  It was very poor.  Put it

          6   this way, I have 850 custodial staff, that includes

          7   my sergeants and lieutenants.  Six hundred are

          8   basically officers.  And I was down to a little

          9   under 500 officers.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  This was last year?

         11             DEBRA DEXTER:  Last year, yes.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how many inmates

         13   did you have in custody last year?

         14             DEBRA DEXTER:  Anywhere from 4500 to about

         15   4700.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  All-male facility?

         17             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes, sir.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And what range of

         19   security?

         20             DEBRA DEXTER:  It's considered a

         21   medium-security institution.  I house approximately


                                                                      156

          1   1,200 inmates serving life without parole, and I

          2   would say another 2,000 are anywhere from probably

          3   ten years to 100-and-some odd years.  So it just

          4   kind of varies.  Considered a level-three

          5   institution.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So the ratio last year

          7   at Lockwood -- 500 officers, up to 4700, was in

          8   excess of one to nine; is that correct?

          9             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And does that raise

         11   some concerns for you?

         12             DEBRA DEXTER:  Oh, absolutely.  But like I

         13   said, the best part of it is that the Department has

         14   made the efforts and we are no longer short-staffed.

         15             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  What is the gender

         16   breakdown with staff?

         17             DEBRA DEXTER:  I would say probably

         18   95 percent -- my custodial staff are all men, and

         19   the other 5 percent are women.

         20             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Do you have male and

         21   female staff on your senior executive team?


                                                                      157

          1             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes, I do.

          2             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Do you have any openly

          3   gay staff?

          4             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes, I have one.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And is that gay staff

          6   member -- where does he or she work?

          7             DEBRA DEXTER:  He's a cook in the kitchen.

          8   He's a supervisor cook.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So he would have -- he

         10   would be around inmates?

         11             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And could be a role

         13   model for inmates?

         14             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes.

         15             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Have you ever

         16   considered perhaps developing a program around

         17   having openly gay staff to perhaps intervene and act

         18   in terms of role-modeling within the institution?

         19             DEBRA DEXTER:  No, I hadn't.  And just to

         20   kind of give you a little bit of the dynamics of

         21   Ironwood, I do know that I have a population -- that


                                                                      158

          1   there may be a few openly homosexuals but not very

          2   many.  They typically don't come to my institution,

          3   so I never ventured or had an idea of doing

          4   something like that with staff.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  The inmates don't have

          6   a whole lot of choice, do they, as to where they are

          7   going?  Why do you think they don't come to your

          8   institution?

          9             DEBRA DEXTER:  Normally when they are in

         10   the reception center -- usually someone that's

         11   openly homosexual, they basically say so and they

         12   normally send them to a couple of the other

         13   institutions that typically house more inmates --

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Where would that be?

         15             DEBRA DEXTER:  Usually CMF Vacaville,

         16   California Medical Facility, it's located in

         17   Northern California -- has a very high population of

         18   inmates that are homosexual.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What do you expect your

         20   staff to do when making housing assignments in the

         21   first 14 days of reception?  What do you expect them


                                                                      159

          1   to consider as factors in making those housing

          2   assignments?

          3             DEBRA DEXTER:  I expect them, first of

          4   all, to be professional and consider the inmate's

          5   age, his ethnicity, his gang affiliation.  We also

          6   look at that because of the violence that are in

          7   California prisons.  You know, what type of

          8   vocational program they might be interested in.

          9   Their education.  We tend to look at quite a few --

         10   I would expect them to look at -- to really

         11   interview the inmate and get a real good idea where

         12   we think that he can safely and best be housed at in

         13   the institution, and positively programmed.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you expect them to

         15   ask about sexual orientation?

         16             DEBRA DEXTER:  I wouldn't say so unless

         17   there was maybe something that they noticed in the

         18   central file, or either the inmate's behavior that

         19   would tend to make them ask -- normally be a

         20   question that I would ask.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about sexual


                                                                      160

          1   assault history or victimization?

          2             DEBRA DEXTER:  Absolutely.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Where would they get

          4   that information?

          5             DEBRA DEXTER:  From the inmate's central

          6   files or during a private interview, because each

          7   inmate is interviewed prior to them being placed in

          8   a housing facility -- so during that time.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Does that interview

         10   take place when they are in R&R or when they are in

         11   C-1?

         12             DEBRA DEXTER:  Actually, it can take place

         13   in both places.  Initially, it's done in the

         14   receiving and release -- in R&R.  Then once they get

         15   to C-1, which is my orientation, they are also

         16   interviewed by their correctional counselor.  And

         17   that's also done in a private setting.

         18             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  On the peer education

         19   program, are there other aspects to that program in

         20   addition to the medical -- educating inmates

         21   regarding medical issues?  Are there any other


                                                                      161

          1   components to the peer education program that you

          2   believe help to ensure its success?

          3             DEBRA DEXTER:  The only other components

          4   that we do take a part with, it's basically all in

          5   the medical.  But one of the things that I think is

          6   unique about Ironwood is that we have incorporated

          7   PREA -- you know, talking specifically about sexual

          8   assault.  We do have pamphlets that we pass out.  I

          9   think that was included in your packet.  And you had

         10   asked a question a little earlier, I think it was to

         11   Secretary Tilton, are inmates given specific

         12   information as to what to do in case they are

         13   assaulted?  And we do have pamphlets that we do pass

         14   out to the inmate population to particularly tell

         15   them what to do and how to do it and who to tell --

         16   so we do that information.  And, actually, it's

         17   called the sexual assault awareness pamphlet that

         18   was developed by the Department of Corrections and

         19   Rehabilitation.  And we do go over that.  And as

         20   part of the peer education, just getting the

         21   information out there to them in case they are


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          1   sexually assaulted and what to do has been most

          2   helpful.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What's the culture or

          4   environment in your facility as far as sexual jokes,

          5   labels, comments?

          6             DEBRA DEXTER:  You know what, I'm really

          7   kind of proud to say I haven't seen that.  I'm not

          8   ignorant to the fact that it probably does happen,

          9   but when I review my appeal process and my staff

         10   complaint process, I would say maybe one or

         11   two percent -- just not very high.  And I don't

         12   typically deal with those type of issues, or I don't

         13   get those complaints from staff.  I usually get an

         14   earful of complaints, and that's something that

         15   hasn't been brought to my attention.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  These would be

         17   complaints from staff or from inmates?

         18             DEBRA DEXTER:  Actually from both.  I tend

         19   to walk the facility about once a week or so, so

         20   inmates do have an ear.  I do have an ear for them.

         21   So I would hear it.


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          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  You walk the facility

          2   once a week?

          3             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes, sir.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is that the only time

          5   that you would have face time with inmates?

          6             DEBRA DEXTER:  No.  On Thursday we do

          7   institutional classification committee review, when

          8   you were speaking about our administrative

          9   segregation unit -- during that period I also speak

         10   to the inmates.  And we're required to chair those

         11   committees as often as possible.  So I typically

         12   do -- it's just not a period where the inmate comes

         13   in, you say, okay, this is your punishment.  It's

         14   actually, you know, are you okay, are you okay with

         15   your cellmate, is there anything that we need to

         16   know?

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What are all the ways

         18   that an inmate could communicate or report their

         19   having been sexually assaulted or harassed?  What

         20   are all the avenues?  They might see you on the

         21   once-a-week walk-around, might see a nurse or be


                                                                      164

          1   able to successfully get a sick call slip out, but

          2   what are the other ways that reporting could happen

          3   in your facility?

          4             DEBRA DEXTER:  There's an inmate appeal

          5   process.  They can file an appeal.  They can also

          6   fill out a form that involves a request for

          7   interview.  Where they can send it -- they can also

          8   appeal to any supervisor in the facility, sergeant,

          9   lieutenant, or captain.  They also -- every inmate

         10   is assigned to a correctional counselor.  So

         11   there's, I think, quite a few avenues.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  When are the counselors

         13   around?

         14             DEBRA DEXTER:  The counselors should be on

         15   the facilities every day, but they are required to

         16   run, I believe it's ten hours open line a week,

         17   where an inmate -- where they just have an open

         18   door, inmate can come in and talk with them.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And you mentioned

         20   sergeants and lieutenants and captains.  When and

         21   how would an inmate approach -- be able to approach


                                                                      165

          1   them?

          2             DEBRA DEXTER:  That's any time they get

          3   ready:  during yard meetings; during yard time;

          4   during dining; during evening meal; the morning

          5   meal; while they are going out to their work

          6   assignment or education program.  Staff are very

          7   visible outside, so they are welcome to talk to

          8   them.

          9             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Warden, in your

         10   judgment, who would be the most likely staff to

         11   cross the boundaries and get into misconduct with

         12   inmates?

         13             DEBRA DEXTER:  Wow, that's kind of hard

         14   because I've kind of seen a little bit of it all.

         15   Gosh, well, working at a mental institution, I will

         16   have to say, and this is the only experience I've

         17   had working in men institutions, often seen the

         18   women fall in love with the men for whatever reason.

         19             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  A staff.

         20             DEBRA DEXTER:  Staff member, yes.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is there any other


                                                                      166

          1   profile other than their being predominantly female?

          2   What are other factors or clues that someone may be

          3   more at risk to become a predator on an inmate?

          4             DEBRA DEXTER:  I've seen quite a few

          5   teachers, I will say -- seen probably more teachers

          6   than I have of the other staff.  But I think some of

          7   the things that we can do a little bit better is by

          8   training.  The Department -- in this field, you

          9   typically tend to put people out there without

         10   enough training or experience.  There are other

         11   things to look for, things to watch?

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Who gets PREA training

         13   on your staff?

         14             DEBRA DEXTER:  All our staff.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Everybody with a pulse?

         16             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes.  When you come into

         17   orientation, everyone has it.  And then we're also

         18   required one more time through the year to give you

         19   four hours of training.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you use the National

         21   Institute of Corrections DVDs?


                                                                      167

          1             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes, we do.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Who sees those?

          3             DEBRA DEXTER:  Everyone, all of our staff.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about inmates?

          5             RICHARD ANTI:  Yes, they do see that DVD,

          6   during orientation.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Orientation.

          8             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes, when they go to C-1

          9   they see the orientation video.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you have outside

         11   stakeholders come and participate in any of the PREA

         12   training, either from staff or inmates?

         13             DEBRA DEXTER:  No, I haven't.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Local rape crisis

         15   center?

         16             DEBRA DEXTER:  No, they have not.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do inmates have

         18   access -- would they be able to contact,

         19   confidentially, a rape crisis center or are phone

         20   calls all going to be monitored?

         21             DEBRA DEXTER:  All phone calls are


                                                                      168

          1   monitored.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And do the rape -- the

          3   local rape centers have any role in reporting or

          4   treatment or counseling, or is this done all within

          5   your own shop?

          6             DEBRA DEXTER:  Well, once -- they do meet

          7   with us.  As a matter of fact, we just met with them

          8   a couple weeks ago.  Ours is called Coachella Crisis

          9   Rape Center.  And so they do meet with us, with

         10   staff.  I have a PREA coordinator.  And, at that

         11   time, if they have any literature they want to give

         12   out, they do do that.  But that's the avenue they

         13   go -- would go through, is through our PREA

         14   coordinator.  And departmentally, once or twice a

         15   year all the PREA coordinators do meet in Sacramento

         16   for additional PREA training.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How do you measure

         18   staff knowledge of sexual assault in PREA?  Do they

         19   have to take a test?

         20             DEBRA DEXTER:  Right now I would tend to

         21   say that in the last -- since the enactment of the


                                                                      169

          1   Act, since the Department has started ensuring that

          2   we do do training, it's just not that I call and

          3   say, yes, my institution did training.  I have to

          4   actually produce documents that they were trained on

          5   it.  So I would like to say now -- I would say at

          6   least 80 percent of our staff are very well aware of

          7   PREA.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Are they tested?

          9             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes, during their

         10   orientation.  It's a small little test.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And would their

         12   knowledge and familiarity with PREA play any role in

         13   their job evaluation?

         14             DEBRA DEXTER:  No, not at this time.  Not

         15   that I'm aware of.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How do you avoid hiring

         17   staff who may have a, in their past, sexual assault

         18   or sexual harassment?

         19             DEBRA DEXTER:  Well, typically before

         20   anyone is hired, if you're a peace officer, you've

         21   gone through a background investigation.  And if


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          1   you're a free staff, or an ancillary staff, we do a

          2   small background on you once you're hired.  And

          3   really, unless you have been convicted of the crime

          4   and it shows up as a felony or shows up as an arrest

          5   history, we wouldn't know.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So unless you're

          7   convicted of a sex offense, particularly the

          8   ancillary staff, like the folks in culinary, your

          9   supervising cook, your librarian, your teachers, the

         10   folks who are most likely to be on a one-on-one

         11   situation with an inmate, you're not going to know

         12   whether they have a profile of being a predator?

         13             DEBRA DEXTER:  Right, unless they were

         14   actually arrested.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Unless --

         16             DEBRA DEXTER:  Unless they had been

         17   arrested.

         18             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Is there a way that a

         19   staff can remove himself if and when his personal

         20   revulsion for a prisoner would otherwise interfere

         21   with his professional judgment?


                                                                      171

          1             DEBRA DEXTER:  Can he quit?

          2             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Can he be removed from

          3   a case, from a specific case?

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Or a cellblock.  Be

          5   moved from C to B because he can't stand that

          6   particular inmate or --

          7             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Or inmates in that

          8   particular cellblock.

          9             DEBRA DEXTER:  Well, I find -- your

         10   question, because they were attracted to the inmate

         11   or just they didn't get along with the inmate?

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Say the individual has

         13   a particular disregard for this case, for an

         14   effeminate male inmate, just thinking to himself all

         15   the time, this queen is just disgusting, if

         16   something happened to him in the closet it wouldn't

         17   be the worst thing that I could think of.  At that

         18   point, his professional judgment is compromised,

         19   would you agree?

         20             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes.  And then to answer

         21   your question, yes, they can ask for a job change.


                                                                      172

          1   Or, yes, they can ask for a job change.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how is that going

          3   to look on their employment file, this person asked

          4   to be transferred for personal reasons to a

          5   different post?

          6             DEBRA DEXTER:  Well, the process rules are

          7   a little bit different.  If an officer requested a

          8   job change, if the job was different than what they

          9   put in for, they wouldn't have to particularly give

         10   us a reason.  However, if it came to my level that

         11   he was having a problem because an inmate was openly

         12   gay, then I would have to deal with it a little bit

         13   differently.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how would you deal

         15   with it?

         16             DEBRA DEXTER:  I would remove him.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  From the facility or

         18   from the assignment?

         19             DEBRA DEXTER:  From the assignment, and

         20   probably initiate some sort of investigation

         21   depending on the information that I had gotten.


                                                                      173

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  If it came to your

          2   attention then, a correctional officer is going to

          3   know that that's not going to be positive for his

          4   future?

          5             DEBRA DEXTER:  Absolutely.

          6             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Are there any

          7   sanctions for offenders who falsely report sexual

          8   assault?

          9             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes, they can -- there are

         10   some repercussions if they do.

         11             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  And they are?

         12             DEBRA DEXTER:  Kind of depends on -- to be

         13   honest, I have never had to deal with it, just file

         14   false allegations against a staff member.  All the

         15   ones I've been -- had to deal with it, is they were

         16   founded.  But as far as people just making false

         17   allegations, other than sometimes during the --

         18   during the appeal process, you might find that

         19   something was unfounded or just didn't happen.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do family members of

         21   inmates have access to opportunity to communicate to


                                                                      174

          1   the administration at Ironwood that their loved one

          2   is at risk?

          3             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes, they do.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How do they do that?

          5             DEBRA DEXTER:  Currently, we have what we

          6   call an inmate family council, and I meet with them

          7   once a month.  And at that time -- initially, they

          8   started off talking for visiting, but it's kind of

          9   grown.  So that is an avenue.  I have pictures of

         10   all the inmate family council, the families up in

         11   the visiting rooms, and that's a process that they

         12   can use.  And they tend to bring you any kind of

         13   issues through that council.  That's one way that

         14   they can do it.  And they can always call the office

         15   or write a letter if there's some specific issues

         16   that they want to discuss about an inmate.

         17             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Have there been

         18   instances when family members did get that

         19   information to you and you acted on it and found it

         20   to be true?

         21             DEBRA DEXTER:  As far as sexual


                                                                      175

          1   misconduct?

          2             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Yes.

          3             DEBRA DEXTER:  No.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  You never had a -- how

          5   about not at Ironwood, but in your 22 years of

          6   corrections, have you ever had an instance in which

          7   family members communicated that their loved one was

          8   raped, was assaulted, pressured to be intimate with

          9   another inmate or staff?

         10             DEBRA DEXTER:  No, I haven't.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Never?

         12             DEBRA DEXTER:  No.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Nurse Thomas mentioned

         14   that you have agreements or arrangements with

         15   several hospitals for possible sexual assault

         16   victims.  How many officers need to escort an inmate

         17   when they are going to the E.R.?

         18             DEBRA DEXTER:  From where?

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  From your institution

         20   to the emergency room.

         21             DEBRA DEXTER:  We normally send two or


                                                                      176

          1   three people.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Two or three?

          3             DEBRA DEXTER:  Yes.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Does that include an

          5   advocate?  Can the inmate bring or be met by a

          6   mentor or some other --

          7             DEBRA DEXTER:  No, it's usually done by my

          8   investigative unit.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I thought I saw

         10   something in your materials that a victim can have

         11   an advocate with them.  But does that -- does that

         12   ring a bell?

         13             DEBRA DEXTER:  No -- have to check my

         14   notes.

         15             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  California two years

         16   ago --

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I see Ms. Thomas

         18   nodding her nod.

         19             LYNN THOMAS:  We have an agreement -- we

         20   have to call the advocate to tell them about it.  We

         21   have to tell them where to meet the patient.


                                                                      177

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So you call the

          2   Coachella Valley --

          3             LYNN THOMAS:  Last Monday they had a

          4   meeting at the institution with their PREA

          5   coordinator, and we have an agreement with our

          6   prison that we're expected to call for the watch

          7   commander when this happens -- they have to call

          8   their advocate group in Coachella Valley, and they

          9   have to tell them which hospital they are going to

         10   and they have to meet the patient there and be

         11   available for counseling.  Even if the patient wants

         12   to withdraw and not use them, this is our contracted

         13   Coachella Valley sexual assault services.  And they

         14   have to meet them there and be available, if they

         15   want to talk or not -- they have to be an advocate.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Thank you.  What

         17   procedures, Warden, should your staff follow if they

         18   receive a report that an individual had been

         19   sexually assaulted in another institution?

         20             DEBRA DEXTER:  They should first report

         21   it -- normally -- they typically report it to our


                                                                      178

          1   institution.  And then if it had to do with another

          2   institution, I would contact the warden at that

          3   institution and give them that information.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  The reason why I'm

          5   asking is because Operation Procedure 062 that you

          6   produced talks about a sexual assault that is,

          7   quote, current, but doesn't talk about any past

          8   assaults.  So I was wondering if that procedure

          9   differs.

         10             DEBRA DEXTER:  Once it's brought to my

         11   attention, I would contact the warden at that other

         12   institution and let him know.

         13             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Possibly my last

         14   question.  Please describe your grievance procedure

         15   that an inmate must follow when filing a civil

         16   lawsuit.

         17             DEBRA DEXTER:  He has an option.  If he,

         18   of course, doesn't want to file in the institution,

         19   then he basically would contact -- file the

         20   paperwork with the court.  We hope that they would

         21   give us the opportunity, however, at the institution


                                                                      179

          1   to look into it, but there's no mandate that he has

          2   to follow at the institution.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Well, Warden, thank you

          4   so much for your time.  Anything you wanted to

          5   clarify, add to -- anything that any of your staff

          6   mentioned, or supplement Secretary Tilton's

          7   comments?

          8             DEBRA DEXTER:  Just wanted to thank you

          9   for the opportunity to allow myself, and along with

         10   my staff here.  We do think that it's very positive

         11   what the Rape Elimination Act is trying to do, and I

         12   thank you and applaud your work.

         13             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Thank you very much

         14   for your time.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  We will break for lunch

         16   now for one hour and reconvene at 1:15 in this room.

         17   Thank you very much.

         18             (Lunch taken at 12:16 p.m.)

         19             (Resumed at 1:18 p.m.)

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Well, we're going to

         21   proceed without video or audio assistance.  But


                                                                      180

          1   we're privileged to have Mr. Harley Lappin, who is

          2   the director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, the

          3   largest prison system in North America at least, if

          4   not the world.  And Director Lappin, the floor is

          5   yours.

          6             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Mr. Chairman, Ms. Ellis,

          7   it's a pleasure to be here today.  I welcome the

          8   opportunity to appear before you today to discuss

          9   the Federal Bureau of Prisons' approach to prison

         10   management, particularly as it relates to minimizing

         11   the risk of sexual assault within federal prisons.

         12   The Bureau has a policy that addresses sexual abuse

         13   prevention and intervention.  But our strategy for

         14   preventing sexual assault and abuse is integrated

         15   into our overall management approach, which promotes

         16   safe, secure, humane environment for staff and

         17   inmates, and enhances community reentrance success

         18   and releasing inmates.  This approach relies on

         19   adherence to sound correctional basics and the

         20   provision of self-improvement opportunities that

         21   will improve to reduce recidivism.  The Bureau


                                                                      181

          1   operates 114 prisons in response to a little more

          2   than 201,000 federal offenders, with approximately

          3   85 percent housed in Bureau facilities and the

          4   remainder in privately-operated facilities, which

          5   include residential reentry centers, and to a lesser

          6   extent a handful of inmates in state and local

          7   government facilities.  The Bureau is a

          8   policy-driven agency, and all agency sites are

          9   required to follow policy.  In fact, nearly all

         10   aspects of institution operations are covered in

         11   policy.  Numerous executive oversight strategies and

         12   our comprehensive internal systems of control ensure

         13   compliance with the applicable regulations, laws,

         14   policies and procedures, identifies enhancement

         15   needed, and promotes efficient, effective management

         16   practices.  In addition to internal and mandatory

         17   external oversight, the Bureau also voluntarily

         18   subjects its institutions to external critical

         19   review by accreditation agencies to ensure they are

         20   performing in a manner consistent with the highest

         21   of standards.  Feedback from these independent


                                                                      182

          1   reviews helps us improve operations, enhance safety

          2   for our staff and inmates under our care.  Since

          3   2006, the Bureau has implemented various

          4   enhancements to our operations.  We have increased

          5   the number of staff, particularly custodial staff,

          6   who have direct contact with inmates.  We have

          7   enhanced technology and surveillance capabilities

          8   and updated the Bureau's classification system.

          9   With respect to the latter, the classification

         10   system, it's important that any classification

         11   system be evaluated on an ongoing basis to ensure it

         12   accurately reflects changes in the inmate population

         13   that can occur with time.  Institution security is

         14   enhanced through a combination of direct staff

         15   supervision, architectural design and physical plant

         16   features, security technologies, use of management

         17   concept and classification of inmates based on risk

         18   factors.  Our security classification system

         19   contributes significantly to safety by separating

         20   inmates with a propensity for violence and abuse

         21   from others.  Qualified, trained staff are a key to


                                                                      183

          1   inmate management.  Regardless of their specific

          2   discipline, all Bureau employees are correctional

          3   workers first, which means that each is responsible

          4   for safety, security, and good order of the

          5   institution, and for serving as a positive role

          6   model to the inmate population.  Engaging inmates in

          7   programming is appropriate to individual needs and

          8   keeping them constructively occupied are critical to

          9   ensuring safe and secure prisons and public safety.

         10   Programming reduces inmate items and stresses --

         11   stresses related to confinement, to help prepare

         12   inmates for their release.  Staff are highly visible

         13   throughout the facilities and continue to interact

         14   with inmates, and inmates may approach any staff at

         15   any time with their issues or concerns.  This

         16   promotes a more normalized environment and better

         17   positions staff to observe and respond to inmate

         18   behavior.  Locating staff offices in housing units

         19   facilitates access and proactive identification of

         20   potential issues.  Grievance procedures ensure

         21   investigation and timely response to any issues


                                                                      184

          1   raised by an inmate.  The Bureau's approach to

          2   discouraging staff misconduct begins with a clear

          3   understanding of the Bureau's zero tolerance

          4   philosophy, including trying to reinforce the

          5   agency's expectation regarding staff conduct, and

          6   involve staff reporting up the chain of command,

          7   which is both a responsibility and duty, and their

          8   observation or concerns that may become aware of

          9   incidents of misconduct.  Management staff have

         10   expended considerable effort over the past few years

         11   to remind staff of the importance to adhering to the

         12   agency's core values and standards of conduct, as

         13   well as the consequences for failure to do so.

         14   Inmates are encouraged to report incidents of

         15   misconduct and other inappropriate behavior.  All

         16   allegations of misconduct are referred to the Office

         17   of the Inspector General, which then refers back to

         18   the Bureau's Office for Internal Affairs those they

         19   want the Bureau to investigate.  Serious cases are

         20   referred for criminal prosecution.  And the Bureau,

         21   without a doubt, does not tolerate any type of abuse


                                                                      185

          1   of inmates.  Allegations of inmate-on-inmate sexual

          2   assaults, or nonconsensual sexual acts, are also

          3   taken very seriously, with a full investigation and

          4   prompt referral to the FBI in cases involving

          5   potentially criminal behavior and, if necessary,

          6   prosecution.  The Bureau's inmate discipline policy

          7   is also applied when investigation of institution

          8   rules have been violated.  Bureau policy on

          9   preventing sexually abusive behavior applies to

         10   inmates with a history of sexual victimization

         11   recordation, as well as those at risk of being

         12   victimized or perpetuating sexually abusive

         13   behavior.  The policy is designed to ensure staff

         14   and inmate awareness of the understanding of the

         15   Bureau's zero tolerance policy -- standardized

         16   protection and prevention procedures, prompt,

         17   effective response to victim needs, prompt

         18   intervention and investigation, and disciplining the

         19   prosecution of perpetrators.  This policy emphasizes

         20   the importance of using sound correctional practices

         21   to better prevent incidents of sexually abusive


                                                                      186

          1   behavior and, more importantly, as a deterrence.

          2   Staff receive training on policy requirements upon

          3   hiring and annually thereafter, and those that are

          4   directly involved receive specialty training.

          5   Inmates are advised of their rights and

          6   responsibility during orientation, and receive an

          7   information pamphlet that outlines significant

          8   aspects of the policy.  To ensure the safety of

          9   Federal inmates held at facilities under contract

         10   with the Bureau, the agency has made its expectation

         11   of the contractors quite clear.  They too must

         12   comply with zero tolerance policy.  The Bureau's

         13   management policies and practice continue to serve

         14   the agency well in that we have experienced very few

         15   sexual assaults, but even one such incident is too

         16   many.  The Bureau is committed to eliminating those.

         17   Mr. Chairman, this concludes my prepared remarks.  I

         18   will be pleased to answer questions of you or

         19   Ms. Ellis.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Thank you,

         21   Mr. Director.  You spoke of updating the BOP's


                                                                      187

          1   classification system.  Elaborate a little bit on

          2   how you have updated the risk assessment tools that

          3   are used by the Bureau for housing assignments.

          4             HARLEY LAPPIN:  When people ask me what do

          5   you think -- what initiative lends itself to a safer

          6   prison environment, something besides the type of

          7   staff and the training we provide staff, it comes

          8   down to your classification system.  And we have a

          9   long history of experience with classification

         10   systems in the Bureau.  Continuously, our staff are

         11   evaluating the factors that go into determining the

         12   risk associated with an inmate.  Because, as I

         13   indicated, over the course of time characteristics

         14   of the inmates change.  I'll give you an example.

         15   In the early 90s, with the changes made in Federal

         16   law, we observed a very different type of offender

         17   than we had previously.  With more drug offenders,

         18   we began to see more firearms violations, younger

         19   offenders, more gang-oriented, more violence, more

         20   willing to confront the status quo.  And given that,

         21   our staff evaluated each factor and its impact on


                                                                      188

          1   the classification system, and made adjustments to

          2   that in the way of age -- how much weight should age

          3   consider in the classification system?  Length of

          4   time between an assault, whether in the community or

          5   elsewhere, and its impact on classification, in an

          6   effort to ensure that we were properly housing

          7   individuals in institutions consistent with the risk

          8   needs.  Again, our objective is to house inmates in

          9   the lowest security level possible, but at a level

         10   consistent with their safety and security and needs.

         11   And although there's a tool there to gauge that

         12   risk, our staff are also expected to assess those

         13   individuals upon entry to that facility.  And I'll

         14   give you an example of that.  The classification

         15   tool may indicate an offender is a high-security

         16   inmate.  If they arrive and we see an individual who

         17   is very young in appearance, very immature, not a

         18   very good decision-maker, it's within the

         19   wherewithal of that employee, or our case manager or

         20   our oversight manager, to step back and say, is this

         21   person appropriate for high-security institution;


                                                                      189

          1   and consider reclassifying to a lower security level

          2   rather than putting them into a situation that

          3   may be more risky than necessary.  And the vice

          4   versa -- sometimes they belong in medium or low, and

          5   what you see on paper is not necessarily what you

          6   see in person.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What do you -- I don't

          8   want to get too much of the features, but what do

          9   you see on paper?  What do you expect your personnel

         10   making housing classifications to consider?  What

         11   are salient features?  You mentioned age, length of

         12   time since assault.

         13             HARLEY LAPPIN:  We can certainly provide

         14   our classification form.  It goes through -- if

         15   you've ever had detainers, is there a risk that they

         16   are going to be leaving our custody and going to

         17   someone else's custody, and, if so, what type of

         18   detainer?  Is it a violent offense?  And obviously

         19   the more serious offense, the greater weight that

         20   factor carries.  How long is their sentence, how old

         21   are they?  And a number of other --


                                                                      190

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about sexual

          2   orientation, do you ask about that?

          3             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Once the offender is

          4   assessed for custody, it takes into consideration

          5   violent offenses and other things.  I'm not sure

          6   that there is a factor specific to sexual offenses,

          7   but certainly it is in regard to institution

          8   misconducts of a sexual nature.  Once they have been

          9   in the institution and if they behaved in that

         10   manner, if there's incidents of sexual involvement

         11   or sexual misconduct, it would then apply to that

         12   aspect of the custody classification form.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So you were referring

         14   to the custody classification, not housing

         15   classification?

         16             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Well, it kind of goes

         17   hand-in-hand.  There is some consideration

         18   involved -- institution placement as well as how you

         19   decide a housing assignment for an individual.  If

         20   you go to most institutions, the housing assignments

         21   are similar in nature.  In a low, you're going to


                                                                      191

          1   expect more dormitory-style, less cells.  And as you

          2   get into medium and highs, you're going to pretty

          3   much have cell-type housing except in some of the

          4   older facilities.  So in most locations, mediums and

          5   highs, in the Federal system you're going to have

          6   cells -- typically two people to a cell.  Versus low

          7   or minimal, they are going to have more cubicles,

          8   more open doors.  So as far as if you mean housing

          9   to a certain specific bed assignment, it's going to

         10   vary by custody level and certainly within a

         11   facility given what's available.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  From the classification

         13   of custody to the separate classification, though a

         14   lot of overlap, for housing assignment, what

         15   additional factors do you think are important for

         16   your people to consider in making the housing

         17   decision?

         18             HARLEY LAPPIN:  They look at mental health

         19   issues, they look at health issues.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And within the health

         21   issues?


                                                                      192

          1             HARLEY LAPPIN:  They will look at gang

          2   affiliation.  We try to balance our institutions

          3   racially -- not only the institution, but housing

          4   units as well, so there's not an imbalance in those

          5   housing units.  There is a number of factors we look

          6   at in a specific housing area to make sure we have

          7   got balanced population.  We've taken into

          8   consideration offenders with mental health issues,

          9   health issues, other factors.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about a history of

         11   sexual assault?

         12             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Certainly an area if we're

         13   aware of that.  You mean of being assaulted?

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Yes, being the victim.

         15   Would you have that information?  Where would you

         16   be -- where would you get that information?

         17             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Typically through the

         18   inmate central file.  There would be documentation

         19   of that.  Or in interviewing the inmate.  As we

         20   interview the inmate to the institution, we would be

         21   asking them questions of sexual assault or


                                                                      193

          1   assaultive behaviors, so on and so forth.  So that

          2   would be taken into consideration as they are

          3   interviewing the offender upon entry.  There would

          4   be documentation in the inmate's central file, which

          5   goes with the inmate wherever they relocate to so

          6   that information is readily available to the staff

          7   for coming to a determination on housing.  But we do

          8   not have a special housing unit, that is a housing

          9   unit, for just folks who have indicated they have

         10   been sexually assaulted, other than special

         11   housing -- segregation.  If there's that much of a

         12   concern and we decide we feel, based on our

         13   evaluation, that there may be a threat to this

         14   person or he may threaten others, we may decide he's

         15   such a risk, we can place them in special housing

         16   until a determination is made for appropriate

         17   placement.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Both the alleged victim

         19   and the alleged predator will both be put in ad seg

         20   for --

         21             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Could be.  But


                                                                      194

          1   realistically we've got a new offender coming in who

          2   has been sexually assaulted in the past, and for

          3   whatever reason that intake screening person's

          4   assessment -- their concern about their ability to

          5   be successful out there, they may decide to place

          6   them in special housing before putting them out in

          7   the general population.  And other folks discuss the

          8   options and decide whether a transfer to another

          9   facility or a certain housing unit would be more

         10   appropriate.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Director Lappin, you've

         12   been in corrections --

         13             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Twenty-three years.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Twenty-three years.

         15   And you worked up through the system.

         16             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I started as a case

         17   manager in Texarkana, Texas, and then worked my way

         18   up through the system.  I was an associate warden.

         19   I was a warden in two locations.  Regional director.

         20   And then became director in April of 2003.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So do you have an


                                                                      195

          1   opinion as to if one of your -- if a profile, there

          2   was one profile of a staff person who might violate

          3   your sexual misconduct expectations, what are the

          4   warning signs?  Is there a profile of a subject

          5   person?

          6             HARLEY LAPPIN:  If there is, I would like

          7   to know what it is.  I wish it was that easy.

          8   Without a doubt, on occasion -- believe you me, I am

          9   very confident the vast majority of our employees

         10   are hard-working, dedicated, committed, law

         11   enforcement professionals who are committed to

         12   carrying out our mission responsibly within the law.

         13   But without a doubt we struggle when we either hire

         14   someone who, unbeknownst to us, has -- does not have

         15   a commitment to the agency or its mission, and in

         16   doing so ax out.  And obviously as well-versed as

         17   you are in prisons, in ways not only of a sexual

         18   nature but in other forms of misconduct, or through

         19   the course of a career, which we see through many

         20   systems, someone's attitude, someone's beliefs

         21   change, and they take advantage of those.  And I


                                                                      196

          1   wish we had an easy way to figure that out.  We've

          2   looked at a variety of different assessment tools

          3   prior to selection into the agency.  Not really

          4   satisfied with what we see.  And, again, it's our

          5   responsibility to know our staff.  On the other

          6   hand, they are guarded, we don't see them constantly

          7   every day.  Our staff work shifts in remote areas.

          8   Certainly -- basically makes it more difficult to

          9   identify a person or know of issues related to their

         10   personal life that might lend them to act out in

         11   that manner.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What kind of

         13   information do you get on prospective employees?

         14             HARLEY LAPPIN:  No different than any

         15   other law enforcement officer.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Criminal record check.

         17             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Thorough evaluation,

         18   integrity interview upon application.  So besides

         19   their own application and a reference check

         20   associated with that application, when they come in

         21   to interview -- there's an integrity interview that


                                                                      197

          1   asks about all the different types of -- have they

          2   ever been convicted of a crime, have they ever been

          3   fired from a job, for what reason?  So certainly

          4   some detailed background information that's in

          5   there.

          6             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Do they submit to a

          7   polygraph as well?

          8             HARLEY LAPPIN:  No, they do not -- not

          9   during the interview process.  There is a team of

         10   individuals, oftentimes a psychologist or

         11   management -- all our management folks primarily,

         12   unless it's a specialty area, who interview the

         13   individual.  And then there's a background check

         14   that all the law enforcement personnel must have

         15   conducted as part of the hiring process.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about your

         17   auxiliary staff in terms of the kitchen folks doing

         18   vocational training, folks that might be in the

         19   library?  Do they have the same background checks?

         20             HARLEY LAPPIN:  All of our employees who

         21   work in institutions are Federal law enforcement


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          1   officers.  They go through the same hiring

          2   procedures, must meet the same criteria, and all of

          3   them have the same background check, which reoccurs

          4   every five years.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about contractors?

          6             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Contractors is not as

          7   in-depth.  But there's NCIC checks, there are other

          8   reference checks that occur with contractors.  And

          9   then contractors then are split into categories.

         10   You have some contractors that can be unescorted,

         11   you have some -- many are escorted.  So besides the

         12   background checks -- and there's training for

         13   contractors.  And as part of that training we set

         14   the expectation in the way of conduct and behavior

         15   and so on and so forth.  So even if it's a

         16   contractor, which I know is a bit frustrating for

         17   some of our staff -- but not to have contact with

         18   inmates.  They might be coming to work on the roof,

         19   they go through the same process and procedures.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you have folks who

         21   work in the kitchen with inmates, library, chapel,


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          1   life connections, other programs, who are not

          2   full-fledged BOP employees but independent

          3   contractors who have therefore been through a less

          4   rigorous background check?

          5             HARLEY LAPPIN:  There are about 12 to

          6   14,000 contractors and volunteers with Bureau of

          7   Prisons.  The vast majority of the volunteers work

          8   in chapels area, or education.  I won't say -- I

          9   will say it's very infrequent that you have a

         10   volunteer in food service or some of those other

         11   areas.  It could happen.  Someone comes to us and

         12   they met overall procedures to become a volunteer

         13   and they have a specialty, we will certainly use

         14   them in that capacity.  Most of them work in

         15   religious services or education.  The volunteers go

         16   through our vetting process, reference-checking

         17   process.  They too are divided into categories of

         18   escorted, non-escorted, so on and so forth.  When

         19   they don't abide by those expectations, they no

         20   longer can be a volunteer.  And typically that

         21   information is passed up through the chain of


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          1   command so that they can't leave one institution,

          2   become a volunteer elsewhere if in fact their

          3   behavior assessment -- we have removed them from

          4   that responsibility at a similar location.  Even

          5   more so with contractors -- vetting,

          6   reference-checking.  If they are associated with a

          7   certain organization, we use some vetting of that

          8   organization.  So there's a fairly thorough -- even

          9   more so since 9/11 -- and to some frustrations.

         10   Unfortunately, we see a decline in volunteerism

         11   because it's a more rigorous review and evaluation

         12   than it was in the past.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do the volunteers go

         14   through any kind of PREA training?

         15             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I believe.  Again, you

         16   might want to ask some of the folks from Schuylkill.

         17   But I'm pretty sure that during -- I won't say it's

         18   specifically PREA, but there's certainly --

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Forty-eight hours.

         20             HARLEY LAPPIN:  -- a segment during their

         21   orientation that deals with misconduct:  bringing


                                                                      201

          1   something to an inmate; taking something out for an

          2   inmate; inappropriate relationship with inmates.

          3   And they are all made well aware that that type of

          4   behavior is unacceptable and will result in a

          5   removal from the program.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  We heard this morning

          7   that there are blind spots in every institution

          8   where there are particularly one-on-one contact

          9   between staff and inmates.  That would be frequently

         10   in the kitchen, library, maybe some of the

         11   programming.  So my question is directed at the

         12   rigor of background checks for staff.  Unless they

         13   have been convicted of a sex offense, they -- we

         14   don't -- the Bureau doesn't know what the -- what

         15   background they may have had short of a criminal

         16   offense that might place them at higher risk of

         17   either a victim or predator.

         18             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Talking about staff?

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Staff.  Contractors,

         20   staff.

         21             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Again, the background


                                                                      202

          1   check is a pretty rigorous process.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That's just for arrest

          3   and convictions, isn't it?

          4             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Very possibly.  Someone

          5   who was fired from a job for that behavior, there's

          6   going to be some limitations on what that former

          7   employer can provide to us.  But certainly there is

          8   vetting with former employers.  If they worked for

          9   the state correction system or a local correction

         10   system, or elsewhere, we certainly -- we do some

         11   vetting with those folks and we may come across

         12   information.  Which you're right -- I mean, most

         13   often it's arrests, convictions, bankruptcy, things

         14   that are documented in the record that we have the

         15   easiest access to.  The other information you may

         16   become aware of, you may not.  On the other hand, I

         17   can tell you, sometimes we go through the whole

         18   interview process and we have hired a person and

         19   then we get the background check and find they

         20   misled us.  It's typically lied to us on that

         21   application process is means for termination.  And


                                                                      203

          1   so it's very easily handled quickly if in fact that

          2   background information reveals they misled us during

          3   that interview process.

          4             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Director Lappin, in

          5   your opening remarks you mentioned safety and

          6   security and surveillance and classification of

          7   housing and training staff, and you also indicated

          8   that one of your values is instilling in staff a

          9   sense of modeling correct and appropriate behavior.

         10   I was very pleased to hear you say that because I

         11   believe so strongly that it is important that an

         12   appropriate behavior be modeled at all times for

         13   inmates.  How do you keep that alive?  What emphasis

         14   do you place -- I know the easy answer is

         15   training -- but what specific training -- how does

         16   that permeate throughout prisons?  What are you

         17   doing along those lines to push that?

         18             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Let me -- it's a very good

         19   question, and in one way very easy to answer.  We

         20   have been very fortunate in the Federal prison

         21   system that we have had a similar mission for 77


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          1   years and similar expectation, my guess, at least

          2   for the last 30 or 40 years.  Because I often speak

          3   with the former directors who were directors at that

          4   time.  And there's always been an expectation of how

          5   we manage to treat inmates, and always an

          6   expectation that you -- we emphasize the importance

          7   of inmate -- staff and inmate communication.  That

          8   has evolved into a philosophy, into a culture.

          9   Across the board, our turnover rate is relatively

         10   low.  If you look at the turnover rate of the

         11   Federal prison system, relatively low.  Oftentimes

         12   if an employee comes to work for us after a year,

         13   and they have adjusted and they think, yeah, this is

         14   for me, I enjoy working in a correctional setting, I

         15   can work with inmates, they oftentimes stay with us

         16   for a career.  Granted, if you go to certain

         17   locations, high cost of living areas, New York,

         18   Brooklyn, Los Angeles, wherever the facilities are

         19   located, it's little more of a challenge given the

         20   competitive nature of the weight salaries.  So it's

         21   a little more difficult.  But the benefit to that is


                                                                      205

          1   we have a very experienced staff.  It's not uncommon

          2   for many of our employees, some of them whom are

          3   sitting right behind me, to have 10, 15, 20 years of

          4   experience.  That goes a long, long way in carrying

          5   on this philosophy, this culture, that we expect you

          6   to interact with inmates, we expect you to listen to

          7   inmates and resolve most issues and concerns through

          8   open, honest communication.  If you come visit,

          9   you'll find that our staff -- we have no weapons in

         10   our institution, only the tower externally.  They

         11   don't carry batons, they don't carry gas, they get a

         12   set of keys and radio and body armor.  Then through

         13   that expectation -- the culture, philosophy and

         14   training that emphasize this approach, we continue

         15   to carry on that tradition.  I think it's really

         16   important.  I think certainly the direct supervision

         17   of inmates, the expectation of how we resolve

         18   issues, how we conduct ourselves in those

         19   institutions has influence on the environment of our

         20   institution.  Again, I think it's stronger in some

         21   locations than others.  We've opened, obviously --


                                                                      206

          1   if you're not aware, 1980, we had 26,000 inmates.

          2   Today, we have 201,000 inmates.  So in the last 27

          3   years we have built and opened many new

          4   institutions -- a bit of a challenge in bringing on

          5   that many new employees.  To offset, we try to move

          6   in a third or maybe more of the employees who are

          7   going to operate that facility from other locations.

          8   So they bring that expectation, that culture, that

          9   knowledge to assist us in training and developing

         10   new employees to come on board.  Are they

         11   necessarily as strong at those skills as other, more

         12   experienced people?  Not necessarily so -- but over

         13   the course of time.  Schuylkill, for example, 15, 16

         14   years old, relatively young compared to many of our

         15   facilities.  Thirty-seven of our facilities are 50

         16   years of age or older.  And so we think it's

         17   important.  It's a little more expensive, but we'll

         18   move a cadre of staff to those locations to assist

         19   us in training and developing those new employees as

         20   they come to work.  So I think the level of

         21   experience, our ability to retain qualified,


                                                                      207

          1   competent employees, allows that culture, that

          2   philosophy to carry out.  We've seen a little --

          3   obviously in the last few years we have hired a lot

          4   of employees, a new generation of employees that

          5   were brought up in a lock-them-up-and-throw-away-

          6   the-key environment.  Somewhat of a little difficult

          7   transition into this approach, but I think in most

          8   places we have been successful in carrying that out.

          9             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  What about your

         10   special programs?  What about the emphasis on

         11   special programs?  We heard a lot this morning about

         12   the peer education program and its success.

         13             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Have a number of those

         14   programs.  Obviously, you heard my comments

         15   emphasizing the importance of programs in the

         16   institutions.  If you look at our distribution of

         17   staff and you compare it to space, you'll see a

         18   significant difference.  Our ratio of correctional

         19   staff to inmates is about one employee, one

         20   correctional officer, to nine or ten inmates.  Now,

         21   our overall ratio is about one to 4.9.  The balance


                                                                      208

          1   of those employees are in program areas,

          2   psychologists, chaplains, teachers, food service,

          3   facilities work, all of whom are correctional

          4   workers.  Day in and day out, most of the time, our

          5   facilities run safely, we aren't locked down, we're

          6   not having disruptions, that allow those staff who

          7   are not in correctional services to focus on their

          8   primary responsibility, education, vocational

          9   training, drug treatment, programs like you've

         10   mentioned.  If there's a problem, if there's a

         11   disruption, we can take those staff and they will

         12   work as correctional staff until that dilemma is

         13   resolved.  That affords us the opportunity to have a

         14   lot of programming, a lot of opportunity for inmates

         15   to keep them conductively occupied in enhancing

         16   skills they need to be successful upon release.

         17   Every inmate has a job who is medically able to

         18   work.  And inmates are expected -- we don't force

         19   inmates into programs.  The only program we really

         20   force them into is work.  They all have a work

         21   assignment, unless they are medically unable to


                                                                      209

          1   work.  Certainly, a lot of the inmates are involved

          2   each and every day in the prison industry,

          3   education, vocational programs, and drug treatment.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Mr. Director, I believe

          5   your budget has not increased eight-fold along with

          6   your population, is that fair to say, in the last 27

          7   years?

          8             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Let me say, Mr. Chairman,

          9   the Bureau of Prisons has been very fortunate.  As

         10   it grew through the 80s and 90s and early 2002, we

         11   were provided for very well by the Congress and the

         12   Administration to open prisons and to staff prisons.

         13   Without a doubt, since 9/11 there's been a

         14   re-prioritization, understandably so.  We haven't

         15   seen the level of funding we enjoyed in the past.

         16   It has had an impact.  On the ratio, the ratio has

         17   grown.  There is fewer staff and more inmates.  We

         18   have had to do some streamlining, some consolidation

         19   that has impacted the programs.  I still firmly

         20   believe we have safe and secure institutions.  We

         21   provide as many skill-fitting programs for inmates


                                                                      210

          1   as we possibly can with the funding that we have.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Well, we're trying to

          3   isolate characteristics or recommendations that

          4   we can pass on to the Commission.  I'm wondering if

          5   you're comfortable with a ratio of one correctional

          6   officer to nine or ten inmates.

          7             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I am.  As long as the

          8   overall ratio --

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is one to 4.9.

         10             HARLEY LAPPIN:  To be honest with you,

         11   Steve, I think it's a little too high.  4.9.  I am

         12   concerned.  Again, I don't think there's a magic

         13   formula out there.  That's why I've kind of taken a

         14   position this year that we cannot reduce staff -- be

         15   quite honest with you.  I've taken a pretty firm

         16   position that we should not lower staff in any

         17   further institution than we already have.  I think

         18   that sends the signal that there is a concern on my

         19   part that we've gone as low as we can in the way of

         20   staff.  It's pretty simple:  more inmates, fewer

         21   staff, more idles, does not equal success.  Now,


                                                                      211

          1   again, I still believe we're operating safe, secure

          2   institutions, providing the programs -- but I think

          3   at some point you got to step back and say, I think

          4   we're at that point where we have to take a

          5   position.  And I am hopeful that we can be funded at

          6   a level that allows us to bring that ratio down a

          7   little bit compared to what it currently is.  But --

          8   I'm okay with the one to nine in the system that we

          9   have given the fact that all of our staff are

         10   correctional workers.  To me, I focus on the overall

         11   ratio, which right now is about 1 in 4.7, 1 in 4.9.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you have -- I don't

         13   know if there's any more questions, but Director

         14   Lappin, do you have an opinion as to why the

         15   Schuylkill facility has such a low incidence?

         16             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I think, again, they

         17   understand the policy, they do their jobs, as we

         18   expect them to do it.  Not unlike any of our other

         19   locations.  I think the classification system in the

         20   Bureau is effective.  It identifies inmates for

         21   appropriate placement at Schuylkill.  And when the


                                                                      212

          1   classification system has not addressed an issue,

          2   the folks realize that and step back and hold before

          3   they put somebody in the general population, either

          4   to a higher security level or a lower security

          5   level, depending on their assessment of the

          6   individual.  I think there's good oversight.

          7   Besides us being a policy-driven agency, and to some

          8   people -- find to be a detriment.  I mean, we do

          9   have a lot of policy.  We have an internal review

         10   process.  We have a program review division who goes

         11   out yearly and evaluates our staff's compliance with

         12   TASS, as well as American Correctional Association,

         13   Joint Commission on Health Care Organizations, who

         14   come in externally.  So there's quite a bit of

         15   oversight given that practice.  We also do

         16   institution character profiles, which really focuses

         17   on the communication that exists within an

         18   institution.  It's really focused on management.

         19   And we go in there and ask a series of questions of

         20   staff and inmates about the flow of communication

         21   within an institution, professionalism, about


                                                                      213

          1   community relations.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How often do you do

          3   that?

          4             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Once every three years.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  For all 140?

          6             HARLEY LAPPIN:  All 114 institutions.  And

          7   if we sense -- this is more of a management tool,

          8   they are not in there checking the boxes, are you

          9   following policy?  It's more of a sense of, is there

         10   good communication from the top to the bottom and

         11   bottom to the top?  Is there good communication

         12   between staff and inmates?  Do we see during the

         13   week we're there inmates approaching staff?  Do we

         14   see staff resolving problems?  We look at the

         15   administrative remedies.  Do we get a sense that

         16   there's a lot of remedies that come up that could

         17   have been resolved informally rather than formally?

         18   Recognizing some inmates who like to write.  We

         19   relate to that.  So you got to step back and assess

         20   all this.  This is, again, a management tool to get

         21   a sense of the climate, environment of an


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          1   institution.  I'm sure Schuylkill has been through a

          2   number of them.  I, as a warden, went through many

          3   of them, and as a regional director conducted many

          4   of them.  To be quite honest with you, as regional

          5   director, within a day, day and a half, I had a very

          6   good sense of how effective the executive staff of

          7   that facility -- warden, associate warden, executive

          8   leadership were communicating with the subordinate

          9   staff.  And when I observed situations that I didn't

         10   think were consistent with what we expected, we

         11   would make adjustments, either training, correction,

         12   advice, or personnel changes sometimes.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  With -- when I went and

         14   toured the Petersburg facility a couple years ago, I

         15   was really impressed -- at lunch you had the main

         16   line, where you had, in this case, the director of

         17   the BOP, you had the warden, associate warden,

         18   captain, all lined up, they are not eating, they are

         19   available.  Was that an exception or is that

         20   something you expect -- we should expect to find in

         21   any of your other facilities?


                                                                      215

          1             HARLEY LAPPIN:  You should expect to find

          2   that at all facilities that have a food service

          3   operation where the inmates come to a specific area

          4   to eat, to a dining hall.  So we have a few places

          5   that are jail-type facilities, inmates eat on the

          6   floor.  So 95 percent of our facilities, that's an

          7   expectation.  For the staff who are on assignment to

          8   be at a main line -- in fact, sometimes they are

          9   scheduled -- they want some at breakfast, they want

         10   some at lunch, the majority of them at lunch, they

         11   want some in the evening.  And given the fact that

         12   some of our staff have volunteered for compressed

         13   work schedules -- it actually affords you more of

         14   that opportunity because of someone working a

         15   ten-hour shift rather than an eight-hour shift,

         16   which means you can have more of them on a morning

         17   meal or noon meal or evening meal.  The jails.  The

         18   jails require staff to be more mobile.  They have

         19   got to go to the floors.  Because there's not a

         20   common area where inmates assemble to eat or to

         21   program, given the fact that jails oftentimes


                                                                      216

          1   operate on separate tiers within that jail,

          2   separated by floors rather than institutions.  At

          3   those locations it's a little bit different

          4   expectation, as far as staff are expected to be more

          5   mobile to make it to each of those floors over the

          6   course of the week and interact.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Talking about the jails

          8   that you rent beds from?

          9             HARLEY LAPPIN:  No, actually we operate, I

         10   can't remember exactly how many, but probably about

         11   ten or 12 metropolitan correctional centers or

         12   metropolitan detention centers -- New York,

         13   Brooklyn, Chicago, L.A., San Diego, Houston, Miami,

         14   Honolulu, Puerto Rico -- that are basically built to

         15   house pre- and post-trial inmates.  About

         16   35 percent, 30 to 35 percent, of the individuals

         17   coming to Federal custody pass through those jails

         18   prior to being assigned to an institution.  So it's

         19   a great tool for us.  We've got a burden of

         20   pre-trial phase, so we begin to gather information,

         21   unlike offenders who come to us from a county jail


                                                                      217

          1   or from a state facility, although I think relations

          2   are such that we're rather picking up the

          3   information from state and locals and them from us

          4   as more offenders cross jurisdictional lines.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I just have one last

          6   question.  You mentioned private facilities, and the

          7   importance of -- in your own facilities, of line of

          8   sight in reducing sexual assault.  Does the Bureau

          9   get involved in the design of these private

         10   facilities, Cornell, Yale, CCA and the rest, such --

         11   or are they otherwise motivated to think about line

         12   of sight as opposed to bottom line?

         13             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Steve, Mr. Chairman, I

         14   don't think we get directly involved in their

         15   design, but -- to my knowledge.  However, I don't

         16   think they really have a choice, because what we

         17   have learned -- design is critically important.

         18   What we have learned about design allows us to have

         19   a better line of sight -- not only a better line of

         20   sight, but run prisons more efficiently.  We could

         21   watch more people with fewer inmates -- I'm sorry,


                                                                      218

          1   more inmates with fewer staff, because we can see

          2   more from a given location.  And when you install

          3   cameras, you have more visibility than the

          4   older-designed facilities.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Are you moving to more

          6   cameras?

          7             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Oh, absolutely.  So all of

          8   our facilities, one, are designed in a manner that

          9   gives us the greatest range of view.  They are

         10   designed with cameras installed -- we're putting

         11   cameras throughout the prison system, even in older

         12   facilities -- little more challenge given the design

         13   of those institutions.  Without a doubt, the new

         14   design reduce costs.  As you can imagine, the

         15   privates just like us are looking at lowering cost,

         16   and I think they are driven by that without our

         17   direct involvement.  But what we do at private

         18   contract facilities, we have typically, at a

         19   minimum, three employees at our private contract

         20   facilities, 13 of them, and so there are three

         21   employees assigned there to oversee the contract.


                                                                      219

          1   We don't just award a contract and leave and come

          2   back once a month, twice a month.  We have staff

          3   onsite five days a week, sometimes on the weekends,

          4   ensuring the compliance with that contract.  They

          5   also go through a program review.  We've taken that

          6   same program review process that we have for our own

          7   institutions and adopted it for those contract

          8   facilities to have programming, so we ensure their

          9   compliance policies.  And our residential reentry

         10   centers, our halfway houses, we don't have staff

         11   onsite at every one of those but there are routine

         12   weekly visits, typically unannounced, to go in and

         13   assess their compliance with those contracts as

         14   well.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  You brought up RRCs.

         16   Do you have any means of oversight other than what

         17   you just described, drop-in visits, on the

         18   prevalence of sexual assault in those halfway

         19   houses?

         20             HARLEY LAPPIN:  As much of concern there

         21   as anywhere else.  They're still our offenders.


                                                                      220

          1   We're still responsible for their safe, secure

          2   incarceration.  So, again, the contractors that work

          3   there go through a vetting process, a background

          4   check.  When incidents occur, there is a referral

          5   and an investigation.  And if, in fact, we found the

          6   staff misbehaved, we're working with the contractor

          7   to make sure that that doesn't occur, person is

          8   removed, whatever the consequences of their

          9   behavior.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What percentage of your

         11   folks go through an RRC?

         12             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Bureau of Prisons?  Over

         13   80 percent of our offenders.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Eighty?

         15             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Eighty -- of offenders who

         16   are releasing to communities in the United States go

         17   through a residential reentry center.  We use them

         18   heavily because we see greater success upon release

         19   if they are transitioning out through a halfway

         20   house.  We rely on that very heavily.  We probably

         21   have about 250 contractors nationwide.


                                                                      221

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  250 RRCs?

          2             HARLEY LAPPIN:  We can get you the exact

          3   number, Mr. Chairman.  Again, over 80 percent of

          4   offenders go through.  The majority of those who

          5   don't are folks who are deemed --

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I take it you think

          7   that cameras are worth the expenditure not only of

          8   money but also of personnel to sit in front of the

          9   monitor?

         10             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Or inmates.  I think they

         11   are a good investment, because there's more eyes

         12   watching and there's more capability of us to go

         13   back and see what happened.  Many of those reviews

         14   of those tapes tell us a lot of information about

         15   inmates, who they are interacting with, who they are

         16   associating with, what type -- the manner in which

         17   they are conducting themselves.  So we certainly

         18   believe they are a very valuable resource.  We also

         19   record every single phone call.  We don't listen to

         20   all the phone calls.  We listen to a portion of

         21   them.  But certainly if we have a concern over


                                                                      222

          1   something that's going on with an offender, we might

          2   put them on a monitoring list and listen to all

          3   their phone calls or read all of their mail.  If,

          4   for whatever reason, we think there's a concern,

          5   investigation, or evidence to lead us to something

          6   going on that's inappropriate, the warden has the

          7   authority to say, I want every piece of mail, I want

          8   every phone call monitored on that individual.  And

          9   oftentimes that gives us insight into what's going

         10   on with a sexual relationship, inappropriate

         11   behavior, misconduct.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you have an opinion

         13   as to whether cameras are worth it from -- in order

         14   to record what happened and do the investigations

         15   even if you can't afford the personnel to sit in

         16   front of them and watch real time?

         17             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I do.  I don't think you

         18   have to have someone there watching every camera.  I

         19   think it has an impact just the fact that -- they

         20   know you've got more visibility, there is a record

         21   of what occurs.  We use handheld cameras when


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          1   there's an incident.  If you look at our use of

          2   force policy, it mandates a use of a camera to

          3   record the event and help us document what occurred.

          4             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Those occur, but I

          5   think I have all my questions answered.  I'm

          6   thinking about restorative justice programs, I'm

          7   thinking about the roles of victims in prisons and

          8   how important it is.  But I thank you.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Thank you very much,

         10   Mr. Director.  Appreciate your time and work.  We're

         11   now privileged to have the next panel, Glenn

         12   Walters, psychologist from Schuylkill.  What's your

         13   pronunciation of that name, Schuylkill?

         14             GLENN WALTERS:  Schuylkill.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Schuylkill.  Bruce

         16   Kovach, lieutenant from Schuylkill, and David

         17   Steffan, the physician assistant from that facility.

         18   Good afternoon.  Welcome.  Would you raise your

         19   right hand and I'll swear you in.  Do you solemnly

         20   swear or affirm that the testimony you'll provide to

         21   this Panel this afternoon will be the truth, the


                                                                      224

          1   whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

          2             WITNESSES:  Yes.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  It would be helpful if

          4   each of you would just take 30 seconds and describe

          5   what your job description is, what you do at

          6   Schuylkill.  We have a general idea, but I want to

          7   make sure we're right.

          8             GLENN WALTERS:  I'm one of the

          9   psychologists at SS Schuylkill.  During the period

         10   when the evaluation was being done, I was the sole

         11   psychologist, so I oversaw some of the assistant

         12   program coordinators for the sexual assault

         13   prevention program.  That's how I sort of got

         14   involved with this.  Right now I'm currently the

         15   drug treatment psychologist.  We have a chief

         16   psychologist, but she is relatively new.  That's

         17   basically my involvement.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about -- who is

         19   the PREA coordinator?

         20             GLENN WALTERS:  The PREA coordinator is

         21   the associate warden for programs, Trish Rodman.


                                                                      225

          1   The assistant PREA coordinator would be Doctor Terry

          2   Backer, our chief psychologist.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Are either of those

          4   folks here today?

          5             GLENN WALTERS:  No.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  The PREA coordinator

          7   would be the associate warden, Trish.

          8             GLENN WALTERS:  Rodman.  Associate warden

          9   of programs.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Okay.  Psychologist.

         11   No, Lieutenant Kovach.

         12             BRUCE KOVACH:  My title is special

         13   investigative supervisor.  My office is charged with

         14   staff misconduct, also inmate misconduct.  We also

         15   monitor gang activities.  We are in charge -- in

         16   speaking to the director about the cameras, we

         17   pretty much oversee the camera monitoring.

         18   Telephone monitoring falls upon us.  We also do drug

         19   monitoring, alcohol monitoring.  Any out of the

         20   ordinary misconduct or anything that could lead to a

         21   criminal prosecution runs through my department.


                                                                      226

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how long have you

          2   been in corrections?

          3             BRUCE KOVACH:  Twenty-one years.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how long at

          5   Schuylkill?

          6             BRUCE KOVACH:  Seventeen.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Mr. Steffan.

          8             DAVID STEFFAN:  One of the mid-level

          9   providers, actually trained as an physician

         10   assistant, one of five that work at Schuylkill.  We

         11   see inmates on sick call, chronic care clinics, and

         12   whatever inmates present for any type of medical

         13   assessment, injury reports, or any type of medical

         14   clearance.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how long have you

         16   been at Schuylkill?

         17             DAVID STEFFAN:  Since 1992.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how about generally

         19   in corrections?

         20             DAVID STEFFAN:  First institution.  Very

         21   happy there.


                                                                      227

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Great.  I didn't ask

          2   the same of you, Mr. Walters.

          3             GLENN WALTERS:  Twenty-six years in

          4   corrections, 16 in Schuylkill.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Doesn't sound like you

          6   have much turnover at Schuylkill.

          7             GLENN WALTERS:  No, we don't.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How would you describe

          9   the environment or culture as far as sexual remarks,

         10   jokes, stories, monikers, labels, either by staff or

         11   inmates, any of you?

         12             BRUCE KOVACH:  It's not tolerated, sir.

         13   We make sure that our staff are aware of the

         14   intolerance as part of the code of conduct.  Also,

         15   inmates are held to a higher code, no profanity, no

         16   racial remarks, although it's hard to enforce in any

         17   environment.  We try to make them understand that

         18   this is what we expect.  And I think we do a

         19   relatively good job at our institution because we

         20   have, since I've been there, since it opened, we

         21   have not had any racial tensions, so to speak.  We


                                                                      228

          1   haven't had any real drug problems as related to

          2   your question, sir.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And so am I to

          4   understand that if a correctional officer were to

          5   hear another officer refer to an inmate audibly

          6   as -- refer to his sexual orientation or that he was

          7   gay or fresh meat or something, that that -- what

          8   would be expected of the officer who made that

          9   remark or heard that remark?

         10             BRUCE KOVACH:  I would expect the officer

         11   hearing that remark to report that remark, if it was

         12   a derogatory statement.  If it's a statement of,

         13   this inmate appears to be gay, that's good

         14   information to pass along, I believe, along with,

         15   this inmate appears to belong to this gang.  It's

         16   information we need to know.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I'm talking about

         18   audibly saying it in front of other inmates.

         19             BRUCE KOVACH:  In front of other inmates,

         20   no, we don't tolerate that.  And I would expect the

         21   other officer, if one officer makes the discretion,


                                                                      229

          1   the other officer hearing that should correct that

          2   immediately.  And if it's a reportable incident, one

          3   of them needs to come to me.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So, Lieutenant, you

          5   mentioned you are in charge of staff misconduct and

          6   have been there for 17 years.  Have you been in

          7   that --

          8             BRUCE KOVACH:  No, just for the last four.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Last four.  But in the

         10   last four years, to the extent there was misconduct,

         11   you're going to hear about it firsthand; is that

         12   right?

         13             BRUCE KOVACH:  Yes, sir.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And what's your

         15   understanding of the -- the proper protocol for

         16   handling allegations of sexual misconduct by a

         17   staff?  What's suppose to happen?

         18             BRUCE KOVACH:  You mean staff and inmate?

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What did I say?  I

         20   meant staff-on-inmate misconduct, either harassment

         21   or touching or --


                                                                      230

          1             BRUCE KOVACH:  Allegations will be

          2   reported, whether it's from an inmate to a staff

          3   member, an inmate through a written complaint, or a

          4   staff member observing this and making a report of

          5   this, and then we follow up with it appropriately.

          6   As the Director said, we take whatever immediate

          7   action would be necessary to alleviate any ongoing

          8   problem.  We'd stop that.  I would make my concerns

          9   known to the warden and we would refer it up through

         10   OIA, OIG, and they may refer it back to me for

         11   investigation or take it upon themselves to

         12   investigate.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What are the different

         14   roles of OIA and OIG?

         15             BRUCE KOVACH:  OIA is Bureau of Internal

         16   Affairs.  We look for misconduct.  OIG would be

         17   brought in if it appears to be or possibly be

         18   criminal.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Staff-on-inmate,

         20   criminal, or inmate-on-inmate?

         21             BRUCE KOVACH:  Staff, inmate, criminal.


                                                                      231

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how would you know

          2   whether it appears to be criminal, as opposed to

          3   noncriminal staff misconduct?

          4             BRUCE KOVACH:  An example would be an

          5   inmate complaining of a staff pat search, says they

          6   became too familiar.  That's not criminal on part of

          7   that staff member's job.  I would investigate that

          8   as misconduct.  If we would receive a complaint of a

          9   sexual encounter, so forth, I would, again, through

         10   my administration, make referral to OIA, who would

         11   refer to OIG, because that would be considered a

         12   fusible ward if there was that type of sexual

         13   misconduct, whether it's, how can I say, beyond the

         14   everyday job of the employee:  you need this from

         15   me, I need sex from you type allegation, that would

         16   be a fusible ward.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That would go to OIG.

         18             BRUCE KOVACH:  OIG.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Mr. Walters, did you

         20   say that you are a part of the SART team?  Is there

         21   a SART team at Schuylkill?


                                                                      232

          1             GLENN WALTERS:  No.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  There is not?

          3             GLENN WALTERS:  SART team, referring to?

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Sexual assault response

          5   team.

          6             GLENN WALTERS:  Well, yeah, I mean -- when

          7   you use the word team, we don't really have a team.

          8   There's several of us that get involved, obviously.

          9   I'm involved at the level -- if there's an

         10   allegation made, I'll interview the inmate, any who

         11   would be involved, SIS lieutenant, administration,

         12   those sorts of -- medical will be involved.  In that

         13   sense, it's not really a team where we get together

         14   and meet and that sort of thing.  But we do have to

         15   confer, we do have to exchange notes and come to

         16   some conclusion and provide information to the

         17   warden to make a decision.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  But there's no set

         19   procedure or protocol, that you're supposed to

         20   spring into action, the following individuals are

         21   supposed to do the following forensics and go


                                                                      233

          1   through the following steps?

          2             GLENN WALTERS:  Sure, everybody has their

          3   responsibilities, and as the psychologist my

          4   responsibility would be to interview the inmates and

          5   then to provide any kind of follow-up if that's

          6   required.  That's my part of the whole --

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Who else is on the SART

          8   team?

          9             GLENN WALTERS:  It would also be the SIS

         10   lieutenant.  Yes.  Mr. Kovach.  Also would be a

         11   medical person, PA or whatever.  Right now we just

         12   have PAs.  Those would be the primary people.  Of

         13   course, Trish Rodman, who is considered the PREA

         14   coordinator, would also be involved sort of

         15   overseeing the whole process.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How long has she been

         17   in that position as PREA coordinator?

         18             GLENN WALTERS:  She's been at Schuylkill

         19   for approximately four years, five years.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  When was she appointed

         21   PREA coordinator?


                                                                      234

          1             GLENN WALTERS:  That I don't know.  I'm

          2   not sure.

          3             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Question:

          4   Mr. Walters, as the psychologist, one of the

          5   resident psychologists over there, you interview

          6   inmates frequently?

          7             GLENN WALTERS:  Yes.

          8             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  What do they tell you,

          9   if they ever comment in terms of their greatest

         10   fears of being incarcerated?  Do they ever express

         11   to you what it is they fear most?

         12             GLENN WALTERS:  Well, yes.  Well, fear is

         13   something that most inmates aren't willing to

         14   acknowledge in most cases.  They try to hide that.

         15   Yeah, I do run groups, I do run programs, I do get a

         16   little deeper than just the superficial intake

         17   interview we do with all inmates.  And the kind of

         18   things are things along the lines of, basically they

         19   have a lot of fears concerning -- I'm talking about

         20   inmates who actually show some degree of interest in

         21   making some changes.  One of the biggest fears they


                                                                      235

          1   have is asking if they can make it, if they go out

          2   there and they really do want to make it, making it

          3   or fail -- so fear of failure to try to make it.

          4   Other ones have a fear of being taken advantage of,

          5   not just sexually but in a lot of different ways.

          6   Being seen as weak is a big issue for a lot of

          7   inmates, so they have a real concern with other

          8   inmates seeing them as being weak or easily

          9   manipulated or abused or what have you.  So those

         10   are some of the common fears they express.

         11             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Do they ever express

         12   fear of staff?

         13             GLENN WALTERS:  On occasion.  Usually,

         14   it's more animosity toward staff than fear, but

         15   occasionally they might express.  I wouldn't say

         16   it's a common fear that I've come across, but there

         17   have been times, yes.

         18             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  You had indicated you

         19   run groups.  Do you run any groups specific on

         20   sexual assault?

         21             GLENN WALTERS:  No.  My groups deal more


                                                                      236

          1   with criminal lifestyle, drug lifestyle --

          2   lifestyles so individuals can live longer lives.  If

          3   we were going to work with someone who was sexually

          4   assaulted, it would be more individual, it would

          5   be -- what I would be evaluating is the degree of

          6   anxiety and turmoil and stress created by the

          7   assault, and then sort of working with those

          8   symptoms.  Post-traumatic stress syndrome is very

          9   common in people who have been sexually assaulted,

         10   so evaluating for that and helping them work through

         11   that.  I do realize one of the best interventions

         12   for post-traumatic stress disorder is group

         13   intervention, people who have gone through the same

         14   sort of experience.  We do not have that.  It's a

         15   very low rate, say, of verified sexual assault.  Not

         16   just at Schuylkill, but in the whole Federal prison

         17   system.  In addition to that, when you work in the

         18   prison you have to be careful of singling them out,

         19   identifying them.  You run groups -- I know in other

         20   prisons I've worked when I was in the military, we

         21   were running groups for sex offenders, and obviously


                                                                      237

          1   they were targeted by other people in the

          2   population.  So you have to be careful what kind of

          3   groups you run because you could be targeting them

          4   for some kind of retaliation or whatever.  So, for

          5   various reasons, we don't do groups of people who

          6   were sexually assaulted.  What we do is individual

          7   counseling to sort of help them work through the

          8   trauma and the stress and give them the resources to

          9   start coping with their situation.  Fortunately, we

         10   haven't had to do a lot of that.

         11             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  What kind of numbers

         12   have you seen in terms of inmates who have been

         13   sexually assaulted?

         14             GLENN WALTERS:  Very few.  To be honest

         15   with you, in the reporting period we went through,

         16   we had five incidents.  Four alleged

         17   staff-on-inmate, none of which was substantiated,

         18   and one inmate-on-inmate, which is still currently

         19   being evaluated by the FBI.  None of those were

         20   really verified.  I have worked at other

         21   institutions where I've worked with individuals that


                                                                      238

          1   have been raped, but I would say the numbers may be

          2   two or three inmates.  I'm not saying those are the

          3   only inmates that were ever raped or assaulted in

          4   the institutions I've worked in; those are the only

          5   ones I've worked with.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Those incidents

          7   occurred during what period?  You said a reported

          8   period?

          9             GLENN WALTERS:  The last one was whatever

         10   we reported -- 2006, I think it's 2006.

         11             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  When an inmate makes a

         12   complaint, is that inmate immediately set aside in

         13   another environment, or is that individual left to

         14   remain there in the same cell, in the same area?

         15             GLENN WALTERS:  No, they are normally put

         16   in segregation.  Not, again, for punishment --

         17   administrative attention is actually the official

         18   terminology -- for their own protection while we can

         19   investigate.  We certainly don't want to keep them

         20   out there in the population where they can be

         21   further intimidated or abused further or whatever.


                                                                      239

          1   As well as the alleged perpetrator, if we have that

          2   information -- also offer him up for administrative

          3   attention while the lieutenant did their

          4   investigation, got all that information together.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  The five incidents you

          6   mentioned, these are all at Schuylkill?

          7             GLENN WALTERS:  Yes.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  During calendar '06?

          9             GLENN WALTERS:  I can't remember if it was

         10   calendar '06 or fiscal '06.  It was last reporting

         11   period we used.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And to what extent were

         13   you involved in any of those?

         14             GLENN WALTERS:  I was involved in all of

         15   them.  Well, I can't say all of them.

         16   Inmate-on-inmate I was called in.  That happened on

         17   a weekend.  In fact, Lieutenant Kovach -- both of

         18   them had to come in that evening and do the

         19   interviews with the inmates and try to figure out

         20   what was going on.  Because what happens is, when we

         21   do our psychological interviews, Lieutenant Kovach


                                                                      240

          1   does his investigation, starts his investigation, PA

          2   will come in and do their evaluation, and we will

          3   send the inmate out to the hospital, they will do

          4   the rape kit and get all that information.  So we do

          5   respond quickly to those sort of things.  That's not

          6   something you wait two or three days to evaluate.

          7   You come right in and do that.  The staff ones, the

          8   alleged staff ones, none of those -- I think I might

          9   have been involved in one or two, talking to the

         10   inmates, but in those cases they weren't substantial

         11   enough for me to even get involved at that point.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What were the nature of

         13   their allegations?

         14             GLENN WALTERS:  One was -- two of them

         15   involved officers being overly aggressive in their

         16   pat searches.  One --

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  In a sexual way?  Were

         18   these -- these are just misconduct, not necessarily

         19   sexual misconduct?

         20             GLENN WALTERS:  Well, they were saying

         21   that they went through their crotch area too much.


                                                                      241

          1   That was something that was investigated.  In one

          2   case, I did talk to the inmate.  I knew the inmate

          3   and he knew me, so I did talk with him and deal with

          4   some of his feelings about that.  Sort of an ongoing

          5   thing.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Did you believe him?

          7             GLENN WALTERS:  Did I believe that he had

          8   been sexually assaulted?

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Yeah.

         10             GLENN WALTERS:  Not really.  I think he

         11   was -- my own personal opinion, I knew this inmate

         12   quite well, he was a litigious inmate, he would

         13   often bring lawsuits and things of that sort.  I

         14   think the officer certainly went into the crotch

         15   area, but that's what he's supposed to do.  Inmates

         16   will hide in those areas with the assumption that

         17   officers will be afraid to go and search that area

         18   properly.  And so my own personal feeling -- well, I

         19   won't say I thought he was lying.  I didn't really

         20   necessarily think it was the extent that he thought

         21   it was.  But I worked with him nonetheless, because


                                                                      242

          1   he obviously had some feelings about it, whether

          2   they were legitimate or not, and I just dealt with

          3   it face value, rather than making a judgment saying

          4   you're pulling my leg or you're lying.  And that's

          5   the way I try to approach things -- even if I don't

          6   necessarily believe in their allegations, I still

          7   treat it as if they are true and then we go from

          8   there.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  For purposes of

         10   treatment but not the investigation?

         11             GLENN WALTERS:  Not really -- in terms of

         12   our investigation, I simply relay whatever I find

         13   out in terms -- the psychological impact on the

         14   inmate.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  But you tell Lieutenant

         16   Kovach whether you think the person is credible?

         17             GLENN WALTERS:  I may.  If he asks me,

         18   yeah, for what it's worth.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you find many

         20   victims that you counsel, or alleged victims, to be

         21   credible?


                                                                      243

          1             GLENN WALTERS:  Yeah, I have found some.

          2   None of the ones we're talking about recently.  But,

          3   yes, I have had individuals who I truly believed

          4   were raped.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  At Schuylkill?

          6             GLENN WALTERS:  Not at Schuylkill, no.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Have you ever reached

          8   the conclusion that it was more likely than not that

          9   an inmate had been sexually assaulted at Schuylkill?

         10             GLENN WALTERS:  No.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Not in 17 years?

         12             GLENN WALTERS:  Not in 16 years?

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Or 16 years?

         14             GLENN WALTERS:  No.  I can honestly say

         15   that.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Can you describe who

         17   are the most vulnerable inmates?  From a

         18   psychological perspective, what's the profile of

         19   folks who are most likely to become victims?

         20             GLENN WALTERS:  Smaller inmates.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  In stature?


                                                                      244

          1             GLENN WALTERS:  In stature.  Can't defend

          2   themselves.  Inmates who don't have anybody to

          3   support them -- sort of loners, don't have a group,

          4   don't have the people from their hometown.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  No gang.

          6             GLENN WALTERS:  No gang or no affiliation,

          7   those sorts of things.  First-time offenders who are

          8   basically naive to the system are often prey -- at

          9   risk for being preyed upon.  Inmates who are

         10   basically just weak in terms of the --

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about perceived to

         12   be effeminate?

         13             GLENN WALTERS:  I could see that as being

         14   a possible --

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  It's a question, not --

         16             GLENN WALTERS:  I'm just trying to think

         17   through that.  I would see that more -- them seeing

         18   them as being weak, not being able to defend

         19   themselves.  There are some individuals who are

         20   actively homosexual, who consensually engage in sex

         21   with other inmates, and sometimes they can be some


                                                                      245

          1   of the most vocal, most dangerous inmates in terms

          2   of physical -- so you can't really make those kind

          3   of assumptions, just because someone is effeminate

          4   that they're going to be easy.  I think inmates have

          5   learned that, they know that you have to be very

          6   careful.  These individuals are very good at picking

          7   up on subtle cues, and the things they're looking at

          8   is the individual who doesn't seem like they have

          9   any support, seems to be weak, seems to be

         10   inexperienced, and doesn't know their way around the

         11   institution.  So inmates who are very effeminate,

         12   okay, outwardly, are actually, you know, very wise

         13   to the ways of the institutions.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Or they may have

         15   someone who controls them?

         16             GLENN WALTERS:  Yeah.

         17             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  What about older

         18   inmates, is that a vulnerability, age?

         19             GLENN WALTERS:  Sure.  In terms of just

         20   being taken advantage of?

         21             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Uh-huh.


                                                                      246

          1             GLENN WALTERS:  Yeah, being an older

          2   inmate, can't take care of yourself as well.  There

          3   are some inmates, some younger inmates, however,

          4   that will sort of take care of some of the older

          5   inmates.  They see them as not too bad a guy, say

          6   he's an old guy, he's got all these medical

          7   problems, he can't take care of himself.  So some of

          8   the young guys will step up for that individual.

          9   Certainly age could also be seen as a vulnerability

         10   if you can't take care of yourself.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about one of these

         12   folks that you mentioned earlier, an inmate who is

         13   known to be litigious?  Doesn't that make him,

         14   unless he's a gang member, more of a mark because

         15   nobody is going to believe him?

         16             GLENN WALTERS:  I guess that could happen.

         17   I see more that individuals who are litigious are

         18   often protected because other inmates use them to do

         19   their legal work, so they are often sought after.

         20   In certain groups -- certain organized crime groups

         21   will often use the more intelligent inmates and


                                                                      247

          1   litigious ones to do some of the legal things.  When

          2   I was at Leavenworth Penitentiary, there was a lot

          3   more violence, but also saw a lot of inmates who

          4   were more intelligent and were able to basically

          5   survive in that environment because they hooked up

          6   with gangs, groups who used their intelligence and

          7   litigious abilities for their own ends.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I would ask

          9   Mr. Steffan, what PREA training have you been given?

         10   What training on sexual assaults and protocols for

         11   treatment of forensic examination have you received?

         12             DAVID STEFFAN:  Nothing through PREA.  But

         13   on intake screening we ask them, have you been

         14   physically, emotionally or sexually abused, or

         15   assaulted in transit?  Has that happened?  Or if

         16   they are received from the compound up to our

         17   special housing, has anything occurred?  And through

         18   code of conduct, and our annual professional

         19   training, called A.R.T., we reinforce it's not

         20   condoned, it is unacceptable, they are a ward of the

         21   state, and staff-on-inmate, there's no sexual


                                                                      248

          1   contact at all.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What's the name of the

          3   program in B.O.P. on sexual assault?

          4             DAVID STEFFAN:  It would be our annual

          5   fresher training, A.R.T.

          6             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  What if a sexual

          7   assault occurs, what would be your role, how would

          8   you be involved?

          9             DAVID STEFFAN:  I would be usually called

         10   up or they would be bringing them down to health

         11   services, or I would go up to special housing and

         12   examine the patient there.  Basically look for cues

         13   on their behavior, how are they acting, their

         14   posturing.  A lot of their history from the inmate.

         15   We don't necessarily collect evidence, but we're

         16   looking at -- for evidence, for the physical exam.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Well, do you have a

         18   rape kit?

         19             DAVID STEFFAN:  No, we do not.

         20             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Who would then collect

         21   the evidence?


                                                                      249

          1             DAVID STEFFAN:  We tell the inmates, do

          2   not -- you know, don't shower.  The clothing is

          3   usually collected or they remain in their clothing.

          4   They will go directly down after their questioning

          5   in-house -- down to our local emergency room.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So they have the rape

          7   kit?

          8             DAVID STEFFAN:  Correct.  They do the

          9   actual collection of evidence.  We try to contain it

         10   and isolate it.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How many officers

         12   routinely need to escort such a victim to the E.R.?

         13             DAVID STEFFAN:  Minimum of two, and more

         14   depending on the security level of the

         15   institution -- or the inmate, sorry.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And what would be --

         17   when is the -- what shift, is it the first watch

         18   where you have the fewest number of custodial

         19   officers, Lieutenant?

         20             BRUCE KOVACH:  Right.  We call it the

         21   morning watch, the midnight to 8:00.


                                                                      250

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Midnight to 8:00.  And

          2   can you really afford to have two or three officers

          3   during that watch, the morning watch, leave the

          4   facility?

          5             BRUCE KOVACH:  We make them available.

          6   It's not just in sexual assaults, but if we have an

          7   inmate with a heart attack or serious medical

          8   condition that can't be managed at the institutional

          9   level, we send them out to an outside care facility.

         10   And we make it happen without delay.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  You don't -- you have a

         12   staff psychologist, or several?

         13             GLENN WALTERS:  Right.  Two.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Two.  And are you

         15   full-time now?

         16             GLENN WALTERS:  Yes.  Both full-time.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And so is the other?

         18             GLENN WALTERS:  Correct.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And you have five PAs?

         20             DAVID STEFFAN:  Correct.  We work up until

         21   about 11:00 o'clock -- 10:00 p.m., 11:00 o'clock.


                                                                      251

          1   After that time, we have an on-call system where you

          2   would contact the provider.  If we need to come in,

          3   we would come in to the institution.

          4             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  During this period

          5   when the inmate is being escorted out for -- for an

          6   examination or collection of evidence, with perhaps

          7   two people from the facility, who is addressing the

          8   inmate's needs psychologically at that time in terms

          9   of the impact of the trauma associated with the

         10   assault?  Victim advocate, someone trained who can

         11   then address those issues?

         12             GLENN WALTERS:  It would be the

         13   psychologist.  That's one of the times where we have

         14   to come in.

         15             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  So you would be

         16   involved throughout that period so that that person

         17   understands exactly what has happened to them and

         18   you can address those issues?

         19             GLENN WALTERS:  Correct.  That's what Dave

         20   was saying, we do -- we get all of the evaluation

         21   done before we send the inmate out.  So we have to


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          1   interview them before we can send them out.  So I'll

          2   come in or the other psychologist will come in, we

          3   will interview them, Lieutenant Kovach will

          4   interview, we'll do the preliminary investigation,

          5   do the initial psychological assessment before we

          6   send them out to the hospital.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Mr. Steffan, how would

          8   an inmate communicate to you that he needs to be

          9   seen for sexual assault?  What are the options?

         10             DAVID STEFFAN:  There is many options.

         11   First one would be sick call availability.  If they

         12   want to come up on sick call, they have privacy in

         13   the waiting room to not write anything on the sick

         14   call slip; they will be triaged that morning.  We

         15   determine whether or not they need to be seen that

         16   same day.  Usually it's one-on-one, there's nothing

         17   done in the waiting room, so they have that privacy

         18   issue right in front to tell us what the problem is.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What kind of permission

         20   do they need to get in order to go to sick call?

         21             DAVID STEFFAN:  None.


                                                                      253

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Just walk off the job?

          2             DAVID STEFFAN:  Sick call is available

          3   from 6:30 a.m. to 7:00, Monday through Friday.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  6:30 a.m. to 7:00 a.m.?

          5             DAVID STEFFAN:  Correct.  Then on

          6   weekends, emergencies -- if this would happen after

          7   what we call sign-ups, a detail supervisor would be

          8   calling us, a work supervisor at their worksite, and

          9   we would tell them they need to come over.  Another

         10   option would be they could write a cop out, they

         11   can --

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  A cop out?

         13             DAVID STEFFAN:  It's called an

         14   authorization to staff member.  It's an official

         15   form.  Or they can go and just write on a piece of

         16   paper, sometimes up in special housing they put a

         17   "PA stop here" sign or "need to see medical."  So if

         18   there's ever a privacy concern and they don't want

         19   other inmates to see it, or staff members to see it,

         20   they can at least speak to medical.  They also have

         21   the availability to speak to line staff, executive


                                                                      254

          1   staff who makes rounds up in our special housing

          2   unit.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Are the case counselors

          4   in the residential area?

          5             DAVID STEFFAN:  Correct.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And what are their

          7   hours?

          8             DAVID STEFFAN:  They are on suppressed

          9   schedules as well -- somewhere, usually, up until

         10   10:00 at night.

         11             BRUCE KOVACH:  The counselors and the team

         12   members do vary their hours so they are there early

         13   in the morning and throughout the day and into the

         14   evenings -- try to cover as many evenings as

         15   possible, barring sick leave and admin leave.  But

         16   we do schedule -- or the unit team members do

         17   schedule their hours to cover up through the time

         18   that the inmates are recalled to their cells for the

         19   count for the evening.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Lieutenant, if an

         21   inmate or staff member wanted to get away with


                                                                      255

          1   sexual conduct with another inmate, where would be

          2   the best place for them to try that?  Where is the

          3   blind spots?  If anybody knows them, you do.

          4             BRUCE KOVACH:  There are several blind

          5   spots.  As far as sexual misconduct, leading to

          6   that, for that type of conduct, I would have to give

          7   it a lot of thought.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I'm not necessarily

          9   talking about coitus, it may be -- it may be

         10   voyeurism, it may be a correctional officer wanting

         11   to -- you know, wanting the individual to undress or

         12   some kind of lesser touching.  Anything that meets

         13   your understanding of staff sexual misconduct, where

         14   could it happen?  Where is it most likely to happen?

         15             BRUCE KOVACH:  We're one of the

         16   institutions that didn't originally have cameras.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Didn't originally?

         18             BRUCE KOVACH:  We did not originally have

         19   cameras installed in our institution.  Right now

         20   we're up to 138 cameras.  And it worked like the big

         21   dog in your yard, could be the friendliest dog in


                                                                      256

          1   the world, but you never know.  There are a few

          2   places in the general housing units that still

          3   aren't camerad -- that would be where the

          4   counselors, the unit managers -- Doctor Walters has

          5   an office in one of these areas.  It's not camerad,

          6   and let's say an officer has an opportunity to take

          7   an inmate back to that area.  That would offer them

          8   some privacy.  But, again, we do monitor those

          9   doors, the coming and going through those doors, but

         10   not actually in that area.  There's some unmonitored

         11   areas in our facilities department where the

         12   plumbing, the carpenters, and so forth -- but it's a

         13   high-traffic area as far as other inmates and staff.

         14   So is parts of food service.  On camera, it's

         15   usually high volume -- lot of eyes, both inmate and

         16   staff.  So it would be -- I'm not saying we don't

         17   have any of those areas, but they would have to have

         18   a lot of thought into those areas.  And we do have

         19   them.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Kitchen?

         21             BRUCE KOVACH:  Kitchen is pretty high


                                                                      257

          1   volume, pretty open.  It would be maybe a warehouse

          2   area.  But, again, that's windowed, so it would be

          3   the opportunity for someone to look in.  Same with

          4   education.  All the classrooms are very windowed.

          5   We frown upon any obstruction over the windows in

          6   any of the areas, primarily for staff safety, but

          7   also it avoids issues that you're speaking about.

          8   That was designed into our institutional regionally.

          9   Some of the older institutions have more blind spots

         10   than what we have at our institution.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Doctor Walters, I think

         12   I owe you an apology.  I've been -- I assume you

         13   have a doctorate, Ph.D.

         14             GLENN WALTERS:  That's fine.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What is your

         16   educational and professional expertise?

         17             GLENN WALTERS:  I have a Ph.D. in

         18   counseling psychology from Texas Tech University.  I

         19   did my internship at Dwight Eisenhower Medical

         20   Center, Fort Jordan, Georgia.  And from there I went

         21   to the disciplinary barracks at Fort Leavenworth,


                                                                      258

          1   USP Leavenworth.  And I've been at Schuylkill for

          2   the last 16 years.

          3             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I have a question,

          4   Doctor Walters.  As a psychologist staff, are you in

          5   collaboration with any local victim assistance

          6   programs?

          7             GLENN WALTERS:  No.

          8             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  May I ask why?  Is

          9   that just something you don't pursue, or you're not

         10   contacted, or there's no effort to be in contact and

         11   have a relationship with community-based

         12   organizations, or victim assistance programs that

         13   could assist perhaps with victim assistance?

         14             GLENN WALTERS:  We do have -- well, let me

         15   rephrase that.  We have a victim impact class that

         16   we run.  Our drug treatment specialist, Ms. Rodman,

         17   has been instrumental in developing that program.

         18   She does bring people in the community that are

         19   victim advocates and they do talk to the inmates.

         20   But in terms of actually dealing with inmate

         21   problems through the use of outside groups, we don't


                                                                      259

          1   do that.  Our approach is that we deal with that

          2   in-house.  That if we can't handle it at Schuylkill,

          3   then we will send them out to a medical center or

          4   what have you.

          5             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I'm thinking in terms

          6   of training, in terms of victim assistance,

          7   certainly not in terms of victim assistance or

          8   anybody coming in and interfering --

          9             GLENN WALTERS:  You mean training for us?

         10             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Training for you and

         11   for your staff, and also perhaps what you can bring

         12   to the community as well too.

         13             GLENN WALTERS:  Right.  We have had some

         14   connections in terms of training.  As I say,

         15   Ms. Redrick has gone to several trainings in dealing

         16   with victims.  I have had -- the Bureau gives us a

         17   certain amount of money every year for training, for

         18   continuation education credits.  And we have a

         19   choice of doing programs, and there have been times

         20   when I have dealt with victim issues as part of a

         21   training program.  So in that sense, yes, we have


                                                                      260

          1   had that.  We don't have an active outreach in our

          2   community at this point.  And in the -- to be honest

          3   with you, the main reason is just time.  When you

          4   have one or two psychologists and 1600 inmates, you

          5   spend a lot of time putting out fires.  So to build

          6   those kind of community bridges and stuff, it takes

          7   time.  So I -- to answer your question, yes, we have

          8   made some efforts to try to incorporate some of

          9   those things, certainly get ourselves trained where

         10   we can deal with these issues, but in terms of

         11   making formal contacts with groups, I can't tell you

         12   that we have done that.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Lieutenant Kovach, in

         14   your 17 years, have you heard of any sexual assault

         15   by staff at Schuylkill?

         16             BRUCE KOVACH:  No, sir.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Have you heard of --

         18   whether it was corroborated or not, have you heard

         19   of any inmate-on-inmate sexual assault?

         20             BRUCE KOVACH:  Yes, there's been

         21   allegations of that.


                                                                      261

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you have a number in

          2   mind in your tenure, 17 years?

          3             BRUCE KOVACH:  In 17 years, the number

          4   that comes to my mind is three.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And were they

          6   investigated?

          7             BRUCE KOVACH:  Yes, they were.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you remember the

          9   outcome of those three?

         10             BRUCE KOVACH:  One is still open.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That's the one being

         12   investigated by the FBI?

         13             BRUCE KOVACH:  Yes, sir.  And the other

         14   two were non-substantiated.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  The one that's still

         16   open, when was that -- allegedly did it occur?

         17             BRUCE KOVACH:  That occurred in '06.  And

         18   it wasn't very concrete, as far as my investigation

         19   went where I turned it over to the FBI, there was no

         20   physical evidence --

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Were there


                                                                      262

          1   corroborating witnesses of inmates?

          2             BRUCE KOVACH:  No.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So it was a swearing

          4   contest between the alleged victim and alleged

          5   suspect?

          6             BRUCE KOVACH:  Right.  It was actually two

          7   suspects.  The two suspects' stories matched.  And

          8   we separated the two suspects immediately after the

          9   allegation, and the subject, and I'm recalling from

         10   memory here, the subject's story would change.  And

         11   we have never locked one story into him.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  This is not the victim?

         13             BRUCE KOVACH:  Yeah, the victim.  The

         14   victim's story was ever-changing.  The alleged

         15   perpetrators, their story stayed pretty much on

         16   point.  And in the absence of physical evidence, as

         17   you said, it was a swearing contest between he said,

         18   she said.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is it unusual for

         20   something to be still open this long after the --

         21             BRUCE KOVACH:  Something of this nature,


                                                                      263

          1   I'm not surprised that it hasn't been picked up.  We

          2   need to close that out.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Needless to say it's

          4   not an active investigation?

          5             BRUCE KOVACH:  No.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Have you ever -- have

          7   you had any interaction with the DA or the

          8   prosecuting attorney, whoever would prosecute such

          9   an assault if it in fact had happened?

         10             BRUCE KOVACH:  We have a pretty good

         11   relationship with the prosecuting attorney.

         12   Unfortunately, at this point he's helping the

         13   military effort and we get assigned different

         14   attorneys from time to time, but our assigned

         15   prosecuting attorney we have a very good

         16   relationship with.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Well, why don't we take

         18   an early break.  I think we're going to continue to

         19   talk to Lieutenant Kovach on the next panel.  But I

         20   want to thank Doctor Walters and Mr. Steffan very

         21   much for your insights and coming down here.  We


                                                                      264

          1   will recess for 15 minutes, until a couple minutes

          2   after 3:00.

          3             (Short break was taken.)

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Ms. Leonard, good

          5   afternoon.  Welcome.  Ms. Leonard, could you tell us

          6   what your responsibilities are at Schuylkill?

          7             AMY LEONARD:  My title is unit manager,

          8   I'm the supervisor of two of the four housing units

          9   at the FCI at Schuylkill.  I supervise two

         10   counselors per unit and two case managers per unit,

         11   a secretary per unit.  And although I'm not the

         12   direct supervisor of the officers in the unit, I do

         13   observe them and have input into their evaluation

         14   and do communicate with their direct supervisor.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how long have you

         16   been at Schuylkill?

         17             AMY LEONARD:  Seventeen years.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  You start when you were

         19   five or six?

         20             AMY LEONARD:  Thank you very much.  No,

         21   21.


                                                                      265

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And you've been in

          2   corrections how long?

          3             AMY LEONARD:  Seventeen years.  I did do

          4   an internship at a state facility during college for

          5   three months.  Other than that, all at Schuylkill.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  You folks don't want to

          7   leave this facility?

          8             AMY LEONARD:  It's a well-kept secret.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Have you had a chance

         10   to read the Bureau of Statistics report on sexual

         11   violence?  Not that it's household reading.

         12             AMY LEONARD:  I did peruse it.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Okay.  And in your --

         14   among the housing units, do you have anything to do

         15   with protective custody or the SHU, special housing

         16   unit?

         17             AMY LEONARD:  We do do each -- every

         18   single day, the unit team member has to make rounds

         19   of the special housing unit when an inmate under

         20   caseload is assigned to that unit, so we do have

         21   daily contact with them.  As far as placing someone


                                                                      266

          1   in protective custody, we would not be the

          2   individual who would actually order the placement in

          3   protective custody.  But working in the housing

          4   unit, we would frequently get requests for

          5   protective custody or would encounter inmates that

          6   may make allegations of a number of problems that

          7   would warrant their placement in protective custody,

          8   and we would immediately report that to the

          9   lieutenant on duty and then they would place the

         10   inmate in protective custody.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Who does validate the

         12   need of protective custody or need for disciplinary

         13   segregation?

         14             AMY LEONARD:  As far as validating their

         15   need for protective custody, if an inmate makes an

         16   allegation that he needs protective custody, if he

         17   claims he needs protective custody, even if he does

         18   not provide many details, much information, refuses

         19   to cooperate in an investigation, we still place him

         20   in protective custody.  The official determination

         21   is made by the lieutenant, but the procedure is that


                                                                      267

          1   they will be placed in protective custody until an

          2   investigation can be conducted.  And at that time,

          3   once the investigation is concluded, we can

          4   determine whether continued placement is necessary

          5   or not.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And the lieutenant's

          7   name is?

          8             AMY LEONARD:  It would be any lieutenant

          9   that's on shift at the time the allegations are

         10   made.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So there are three

         12   lieutenants that look over the SHU?

         13             AMY LEONARD:  There would be three shifts

         14   where there would be a lieutenant.  But I -- I think

         15   we have closer to 11 or 12 lieutenants, because they

         16   don't work seven days a week.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  They just rotate.

         18             AMY LEONARD:  Correct.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So there's no one

         20   person we can talk to who is intimately familiar

         21   with the operation of the SHU that's here today; is


                                                                      268

          1   that correct?  You refer folks there, but you don't

          2   make the decision, you don't open the door or

          3   determine when they get out?

          4             AMY LEONARD:  Correct.  But we do have,

          5   and I am involved along with the executive staff, we

          6   do have a weekly special housing unit meeting where

          7   all of the players involved in every case of every

          8   inmate in that housing unit, whether it would be for

          9   administrative attention or whether it be for

         10   disciplinary segregation, we review the status of

         11   their case to assess when they would be getting out,

         12   if they should be getting out, where the

         13   investigation was at at that point in time.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And which of you would

         15   be most familiar with what goes on in SHU?

         16             BRUCE KOVACH:  I would, sir.

         17             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I think I'm getting a

         18   little confused.  I thought I understood that you

         19   don't necessarily make the determination in terms of

         20   who goes in but that you do keep up on a daily basis

         21   with who is in the SHU?


                                                                      269

          1             AMY LEONARD:  Correct.  We would never put

          2   an inmate in the special housing unit and then just

          3   lose touch with them.  They still have day-to-day

          4   needs as far as telephone lists, visiting lists,

          5   requests for administrative remedy, which would be

          6   our grievance procedure, just questions about

          7   general well-being, any myriad of things.  So we

          8   still do maintain contact with them on a daily basis

          9   while in the unit.

         10             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Who determines their

         11   program once they are in that particular unit, in

         12   terms of activities, what they can do and what they

         13   can't do?

         14             AMY LEONARD:  There is a special housing

         15   unit lieutenant, but basically everything is

         16   policy-driven.  There is a policy, a special housing

         17   unit policy, that all institutions follow as far as

         18   the operation of the special housing unit.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What does life look

         20   like in the SHU in Schuylkill?  What does an average

         21   day look like?


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          1             AMY LEONARD:  Normally when I make rounds,

          2   a lot of times they are sleeping.  But they do have

          3   access to reading materials, books, magazines.  It's

          4   not just the unit staff that makes daily rounds, the

          5   officers make rounds every 15 minutes -- 30 minutes,

          6   I'm sorry.  So there is constant staff contact.

          7   There's rounds made once a week by psychology staff,

          8   chaplaincy staff, educational staff.  Every

          9   department pretty much is required to make rounds to

         10   that unit at least once a week so that we can

         11   provide for whatever needs are possible.  They do

         12   exercise --

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I should -- same

         14   question to Lieutenant Kovach.  What kind of

         15   educational opportunities, what kind of recreational

         16   opportunities does a SHU inmate have?

         17             BRUCE KOVACH:  Education as far as like a

         18   GED class, that's put on hold, a formal class.  They

         19   can request materials, keep up with education.  They

         20   are afforded -- we have a small law library there.

         21   Anything that's not in the special housing unit's


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          1   law library, we can request from the general law

          2   library that education.  They are afforded a

          3   one-hour outdoor recreation period five days a week.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  By themselves in a

          5   cage?

          6             BRUCE KOVACH:  Small groups or single,

          7   depending on the inmate's needs.  If we have an

          8   inmate that is singled out, identified as he needs

          9   to be away from all of the other inmates, which is

         10   very infrequent, he is rec'd alone.  Other than

         11   that, there is social interaction.  The rec area is

         12   just fencing, so he can talk to the inmate in the

         13   next rec area and so forth.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That's an hour a day?

         15             BRUCE KOVACH:  Correct.

         16             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Have there ever, to

         17   your knowledge or experience, been any complaints

         18   from inmates who are in the SHU of sexual assault?

         19             BRUCE KOVACH:  Oh, sexual assault.  I get

         20   complaints every minute every day.

         21             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  But sexual assault --


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          1   have there ever been any?

          2             BRUCE KOVACH:  No.  Not as far as I'm

          3   familiar with, no.

          4             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Any that you know of?

          5             AMY LEONARD:  I've never come across any.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Suffice it to say it's

          7   not a desirable place to be, is that true?

          8             BRUCE KOVACH:  Overall, no.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So somebody is not

         10   going to have an incentive to claim to have been

         11   sexually assaulted just so he can get into the SHU,

         12   right?

         13             AMY LEONARD:  It could depend upon his

         14   motivations and cost-benefit analysis.  If his

         15   ultimate reason was because he wanted to get a

         16   transfer, then that temporary placement there -- he

         17   might think that that was worth it if the overall

         18   end was to get a transfer.  So it would depend upon

         19   his motivation for possibly falsely claiming it.

         20             BRUCE KOVACH:  They are very good at

         21   manipulating what they feel they need.  If I don't


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          1   like it in that climate, I might allege that I'm in

          2   debt to another inmate and he's going to assault me

          3   if I don't pay up, and I can't pay up, so to speak.

          4   And he will get protective custody, we will

          5   investigate it, and determine whether he needs to be

          6   there or if he doesn't.  We have had inmates who

          7   verified that their story is not credible, they do

          8   not owe this debt, or the assault didn't take place,

          9   or the event didn't take place and they will refuse

         10   programs and come back to the general population and

         11   stay there.  And there's a number of inmates who do

         12   that as a matter of routine to manipulate transfers.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  If an inmate had in

         14   fact been sexually assaulted, wouldn't he

         15   consider -- have to think twice about reporting

         16   that, knowing that his next destination will be the

         17   SHU for some period of time during the

         18   investigation, even if it's for his own protection?

         19             BRUCE KOVACH:  It's possible.  I don't

         20   want to say it's probable, though.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And that's the same


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          1   place that the suspected predator is going to be

          2   located as well.  Not the same cell, but they are

          3   both going to the SHU; is that right?

          4             BRUCE KOVACH:  Right.

          5             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Lieutenant, I would

          6   like to shift a bit and ask a question about staff

          7   and ratting on each other.  Is there a code of

          8   silence that dictates that a staff person wouldn't

          9   necessarily report another staff person?

         10             BRUCE KOVACH:  There is, to a point.

         11   That's more of a TV version that's really played

         12   upon in a lot of TV programs.  And I understand what

         13   you're talking about.  There is a -- the staff tends

         14   to respect the code of honor.  They value their

         15   integrity very highly, in general.  And we do have a

         16   lot of self-reporting in a lot of aspects, not

         17   just -- in general, not with sexual misconduct

         18   specifically, and we also have staff that come up

         19   and say, "this staff member was out of line, he,

         20   she, did this and I don't feel comfortable keeping

         21   that a secret or dealing with that on my own."  And


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          1   they can bring it to any supervisor's attention, and

          2   it would go up to the warden's attention and be --

          3   decisions made on how to deal with it, whether it

          4   was a code of conduct or not.

          5             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  In your 17 years of

          6   experience, how frequently have you seen something

          7   of this nature occur?

          8             BRUCE KOVACH:  Generally speaking, let's

          9   say monthly.

         10             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Monthly.

         11             BRUCE KOVACH:  Not all huge issues.

         12   Sometimes they are trivial.  Sometimes as a

         13   supervisor, a staff member will come to me, ask me

         14   my opinion on how to deal with something that they

         15   have seen.  And I would look into it.  And I think

         16   Schuylkill is fortunate to have a lot of these staff

         17   members.

         18             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Steve, may I?

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Sure, Mr. Director.

         20             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I appreciate that, Mr.

         21   Chairman.  I think this is a very important issue.


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          1   I think, at the end of the day, we want to try to

          2   get the issues on the table.  I think your question

          3   is a good one, and I recently dealt with this issue

          4   in the Bureau of Prisons.  As good as we may think

          5   we are, whether it's Federal, state and local, in

          6   many cases there is an issue of code of silence, and

          7   so much so that here recently we have addressed it

          8   publicly.  I'll send you a message I sent out to

          9   staff addressing this issue, because the worst thing

         10   we can do is ignore it, assume it doesn't occur,

         11   when in fact it does occur, hopefully infrequently,

         12   as the Lieutenant indicated.  But certainly our

         13   investigations reveal, on occasion, staff were

         14   aware, saw something, read something, heard

         15   something that should have been reported but, for

         16   whatever reason, was not.  That's unacceptable.

         17   It's my opinion, the leadership of the Bureau, we

         18   shouldn't stand by and stick our head in the sand

         19   and assume that's not the case.  So we want to hit

         20   it front -- head-on.  So we've acknowledged that, we

         21   have sent a message out to staff.  I've asked, as I


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          1   visit institutions, as I have executive staff visit

          2   institutions, as we address the wardens and set

          3   expectations for them, we want them to deal with

          4   this issue.  We want to set the expectation that

          5   it's unacceptable.  And you all locally, you have to

          6   figure out how an employee can safely convey

          7   information to the leadership without putting a big

          8   target on their head that they have informed, as

          9   they should, a violation or a potential violation of

         10   code of conduct.  So I didn't mean to intervene and

         11   break protocol, but I think it's an important issue.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  You can intervene any

         13   time you want.

         14             HARLEY LAPPIN:  These are certain things

         15   that are a challenge for us to deal with, no

         16   different than employees who decide to misbehave.

         17   If we sit back and we ignore them as if it doesn't

         18   happen, I think that's wrong.  Again, that kind of

         19   goes where you're taking it, and the Lieutenant did

         20   a great job on that.

         21             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I appreciate your


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          1   honesty and openness on that issue.  Thank you.

          2             HARLEY LAPPIN:  You're welcome.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Lieutenant, you

          4   mentioned before the break that, I think it was you,

          5   that the DA, the prosecuting attorney, is in-service

          6   and therefore you have a new DA or a series of DAs.

          7             BRUCE KOVACH:  Yeah, series of whoever is

          8   available.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how does that

         10   affect the --

         11             BRUCE KOVACH:  Virtually none.  I'm sure

         12   you understand, once you create this relationship,

         13   I'm very comfortable talking to Mr. Hinckley, who

         14   took all of the cases out of the Scranton office.

         15   And he was very approachable, he was very friendly,

         16   he fit in personally.  The other DA's not a problem,

         17   but it's -- make that phone call and, okay, now I

         18   know who I'm talking to, whereas prior to his

         19   service it was just part -- more part of the team

         20   feeling of, hey, Todd, I'm looking at this, what do

         21   you think?  And I can still do that but not --


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          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What occasion do you

          2   have to talk with any of these DAs if you never have

          3   any charges?

          4             BRUCE KOVACH:  Well, we have

          5   inmate-on-inmate assaults.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Fights, not sexual

          7   assaults?

          8             BRUCE KOVACH:  Not sexual assaults.

          9   Physical assaults.  We have -- we refer all inmates

         10   who have been caught with weapons.  We speak to them

         11   and attempt to prosecute all drug introductions and

         12   possessions.  Those type incidents.  It's just not

         13   staff-on-inmate or inmate-on-staff, but it's a wide

         14   variety of law enforcement agencies.

         15             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I would like to ask a

         16   question on training on sexual assault.  What has

         17   your specific training been, associated with sexual

         18   assault?

         19             BRUCE KOVACH:  When I went to training in

         20   Aurora for the Bureau as a lieutenant.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  In Colorado.


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          1             BRUCE KOVACH:  In Colorado, yes.  We were

          2   taught to address the needs of the victim.  Yes,

          3   they are a victim first, and an inmate second at

          4   this point.  That was reinforced when I went to the

          5   SIS training, again in Aurora, Colorado.  And on the

          6   institutional level --

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  SIS?

          8             BRUCE KOVACH:  Special investigative

          9   section.  And again at the institutional level,

         10   annually at our annual training sessions, which we

         11   just concluded here last month.  Doctor Walters and

         12   the other staff psychologists have provided training

         13   over the years on the subject when there's a change

         14   in -- policy change or it comes up -- or a concern

         15   comes up.  It's addressed to the lieutenants

         16   specifically and staff in general on the issue on

         17   how to not only deal with the criminal aspect, but

         18   with the emotional aspect that the victim might have

         19   to deal with.

         20             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Ms. Leonard, do you

         21   have any specific training in the needs, the


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          1   specific needs, of sexual assault victims?

          2             AMY LEONARD:  No.  My training consists of

          3   pretty much what he was saying, every single year we

          4   have annual refresher training.  It's covered -- and

          5   it's covered mainly from psychologists that are

          6   there because they are most involved with the

          7   program.  But it is also brought up during another

          8   class on the standards of employee conduct, and

          9   Lieutenant Kovach touches on it in some of his SIS

         10   classes.  But that was my personal training.  But I

         11   know now all new employees -- we have an institution

         12   familiarization class that new employees go through

         13   at the institution prior to even going to the

         14   Federal law enforcement training center, where they

         15   receive further training.  But they also have a

         16   class in that prior to really ever coming into

         17   contact with the inmates.  That's not something I

         18   went through, but I know that's something they have

         19   in place now.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Ms. Leonard, let me ask

         21   you some questions, if I may, about the residential


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          1   units.  Is soft pornography allowed?

          2             AMY LEONARD:  No.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What about --

          4             AMY LEONARD:  As far as pornography, I

          5   mean, they have their Maxim magazines that they can

          6   get in the mail, but no other pornography.

          7   Everybody would be clothed in the photos.  I mean,

          8   it would be a standard magazine you could buy at the

          9   newsstand.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And what about, what's

         11   on the TVs?

         12             AMY LEONARD:  There is a listing of

         13   channels, but they are just basic television

         14   stations, news stations, Discovery, geography.

         15   Those kind of stations.  There's nothing that would

         16   have any questionable content.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  To your knowledge, is

         18   that system-wide with the Bureau or is it just

         19   Schuylkill?

         20             AMY LEONARD:  I believe it's system-wide.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What is your opinion of


                                                                      283

          1   the Prison Rape Elimination Act and whether it's

          2   much ado about nothing, there isn't much assault

          3   going on, you know, folks haven't seen anything in

          4   17 years?  Is this a far stretch from reality or

          5   what?

          6             AMY LEONARD:  Obviously, the Prison Rape

          7   Elimination Act is necessary because there have been

          8   reported cases and substantiated cases.  And I'm of

          9   the opinion that probably one case is one too many.

         10   I don't have any comparison, being at Schuylkill for

         11   my entire career.  I believe that it's always good

         12   to have laws in place and policies in place to

         13   continue to our good record, but I believe, as far

         14   as our institution goes, our culture and our staff

         15   would kind of hold those values anyway and would

         16   protect that anyway.  But for other institutions

         17   that may not have the same culture and history we

         18   do, of course it's necessary.  Like I said, to the

         19   degree of the problem out there, I don't have any

         20   personal knowledge of it.

         21             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Tell us again your


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          1   population.

          2             AMY LEONARD:  We're a medium-level

          3   facility.  We also have a minimum-level satellite

          4   camp.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Sixteen hundred; is

          6   that right?

          7             AMY LEONARD:  There's 300 -- approximately

          8   300 at the camp and approximately 1300 inside.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What do you consider

         10   sexual misconduct?  If you -- given the training

         11   that you described at the A.R.T.s and -- you went to

         12   Aurora as well?

         13             AMY LEONARD:  I have been to training in

         14   Aurora, but not specifically for PREA or sexual

         15   abuse prevention.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What's your

         17   understanding of what constitutes sexual misconduct

         18   by a staff member?

         19             AMY LEONARD:  It could be anything as --

         20   and I don't want to classify it as minor, but as

         21   minor as sexual comments toward an inmate, to sexual


                                                                      285

          1   intimidation, to demanding sexual favors, to even --

          2   even if it's consensual, staff relationships with

          3   inmates are inappropriate and not tolerated and

          4   illegal, because they are considered wards of -- in

          5   our custody and in our care.  So any kind of sexual

          6   conduct would be considered sexual abuse.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How about

          8   inmate-on-inmate, what about consensual activities

          9   between inmates?  Is that a problem?

         10             AMY LEONARD:  We do not knowingly permit

         11   sexual contact between inmates, even if it's

         12   consensual.  If we encounter in the middle of that

         13   for some reason, we would immediately put a stop to

         14   it and they would suffer disciplinary action.  But,

         15   obviously, we don't always encounter it.  I'm sure

         16   it does happen, consensual, but it's still

         17   prohibited, we don't allow it.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Lieutenant, what are

         19   the penalties that an inmate faces if he falsely

         20   reports sexual assault?

         21             BRUCE KOVACH:  There's provisions under


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          1   the disciplinary process.  Lying to staff is an

          2   infractional disciplinary process.  He would be

          3   written a report for that.  At a minimum,

          4   whatever -- however it progressed might be a

          5   violation of other rules.  And he would receive a

          6   write-up.  We call them an incident report.  And

          7   that goes through an entire disciplinary process.

          8   If I would write an incident report on an inmate,

          9   another lieutenant would go get that inmate's

         10   statement, investigate the facts as I stated them.

         11   He would refer them to their unit team, which would

         12   come to Amy, and he would continue through the

         13   disciplinary process.  They are looking at loss of

         14   privilege, segregation time, disciplinary

         15   segregation, loss of good time, and there is a

         16   variety of sanctions that can be imposed.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Would it be fair to say

         18   that, given the chances are pretty good that a claim

         19   is not going to be believed and that the penalty of

         20   not being believed is going to be the discipline you

         21   just described, do you think that has a chilling


                                                                      287

          1   effect on legitimate claims, grievances -- claims

          2   and so on?

          3             BRUCE KOVACH:  I think it all depends on

          4   the individual making a claim.  There is some

          5   stories or versions of incidents that occur that if

          6   we were to put them in a book they would have to be

          7   listed as fiction, because they wouldn't be

          8   believable to somebody outside of what we do.  There

          9   is a lot of bad decisions made by inmates.  If they

         10   see that it's a means to their end, no matter how

         11   slan, they suffer consequences, so it is a

         12   deterrent.  But, again, it's back to the individual

         13   making the claim.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Did I understand your

         15   earlier testimony that you've never heard a claim

         16   that you believed at Schuylkill with respect to

         17   sexual misconduct, touching, intimate pat-downs --

         18             BRUCE KOVACH:  Staff-on-inmate, we have

         19   not proven any allegation that --

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  My question is, did you

         21   ever believe that it was true?  Whether it was


                                                                      288

          1   proven or not, you were of the opinion that, more

          2   likely than not, it probably did happen?

          3             BRUCE KOVACH:  I try to approach each

          4   allegation that way and work backwards from "it did

          5   happen" to "did it really happen."  Benefit of the

          6   doubt is always there.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Always with whom?

          8             BRUCE KOVACH:  It's always with the

          9   individual making the allegation, initially, and

         10   then we work from there.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  The ultimate answer to

         12   my question was, no, you've never -- you've never

         13   concluded personally that a sexual assault or sexual

         14   misconduct by a staff on inmate has ever occurred in

         15   Schuylkill?

         16             BRUCE KOVACH:  Not in my determination.

         17             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Curiosity.  Have you

         18   had any homicides?

         19             BRUCE KOVACH:  No, ma'am.

         20             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Ever?

         21             BRUCE KOVACH:  No, ma'am.


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          1             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Director Lappin, my

          2   question is about homicides within the total system.

          3   Any numbers?

          4             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Yes, ma'am.  One moment,

          5   please.  I have to get my glasses out.  Homicides.

          6   So far this year, fiscal year 2008, we have had

          7   seven homicides Bureau-wide.  In fiscal year '07, we

          8   had 12.  Fiscal year '06, we had four.  In fiscal

          9   year '05, we had 12.  In '04, four.  In '03, three.

         10   In '02, three.

         11             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  What about suicides?

         12             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Suicides.  So far in '08,

         13   we have had 14.  In '07, 12.  '06, 13.  '05, 13.

         14   '04, nine.  '03, 11.  '02, 16.  Our rate is about

         15   eight or nine per 100,000.

         16             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Can you draw any

         17   emphasis -- or can you draw any inferences from

         18   those numbers on suicides?

         19             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I'm not sure, inferences

         20   in what manner?

         21             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  In terms of why --


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          1             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I'm sure -- on each of

          2   those suicides we do an aftermath.  And on many of

          3   those, we can draw some conclusions based on the

          4   evidence we collected, from their phone calls, from

          5   letters, from comments in the aftermath.  So I'm

          6   sure if you looked at the individuals, there would

          7   be some that we might be able to come to a

          8   conclusion of what was going on through the person's

          9   mind.  I can't say in the case of every one of them.

         10   There is someone here that could probably answer

         11   that if you want to ask him the question.  Doctor

         12   Baxter, who is the chief of psychology for the

         13   Bureau of Prisons, looks at all of those suicides

         14   and would be better able to respond specifically to

         15   that than I can.

         16             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I would be interested

         17   in what you have to say, sir.

         18             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Not going to put him on

         19   the spot.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  No.  But I am going to

         21   put him under oath.  Raise your right hand, please.


                                                                      291

          1   Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony

          2   you're about to give today is the truth, the whole

          3   truth, and nothing but the truth?  What's your name,

          4   for the record?

          5             JOHN BAXTER:  John Baxter.  I'm the

          6   psychologist service administrator for the Federal

          7   Bureau of Prisons.

          8             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I'm interested,

          9   certainly interested in the numbers of homicides

         10   that occur across the board in all of the prisons,

         11   and I'm certainly interested in suicides as well.  I

         12   asked the question earlier on about the greatest

         13   fear -- or what the fears might be among inmates in

         14   terms of their confinement within the prison gates.

         15   So could you talk a little bit about the suicides

         16   and homicides from your vantage point?

         17             JOHN BAXTER:  Homicides I really cannot

         18   address.  I've not done any formal study of

         19   homicides during my career.  Suicides are something

         20   that we, by policy, will do a reconstruction each

         21   time they occur, so I can better address that issue.


                                                                      292

          1   I have experience, both in my current role reviewing

          2   all the suicide reconstructions that come across the

          3   agency, as well as in a previous role as a regional

          4   psychology administrator actually having done a

          5   number of reconstructions myself.  And so I have

          6   reviewed literally dozens and dozens of cases of

          7   suicide over several years.  There are some general

          8   trends that emerge that we try to pay attention to

          9   and we train our staff to pay attention to, things

         10   such as persons who have been recently confined who

         11   are facing very long sentences.  In some cases, we

         12   have people who are in fear for their own safety.

         13   We have had some individuals commit suicide who

         14   were, for various reasons, seeking protective

         15   custody status, or who are in special housing and

         16   protective custody status.  We have inmates who may

         17   have committed suicide that seems to be related in

         18   some way to history of serious mental illness.  And

         19   so there are really a host of reasons.  We have some

         20   inmates who have committed suicide, and we monitor

         21   trend information, some inmates who have committed


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          1   suicide who have a history of preying upon others,

          2   and particularly those who have been convicted of

          3   child molestation.  We've seen a slight upward trend

          4   in suicide in that population.  What I would say

          5   generally, looking at our numbers over time,

          6   typically given the numbers of individuals that we

          7   confine, and comparing inmate suicides in our system

          8   versus suicides in the general population and

          9   society, our suicide rate for the last several years

         10   has been about half what it could be for the group

         11   that we confine.  So we're doing a very good job of

         12   monitoring inmates that may be at risk for suicide,

         13   intervening if we find any number of different

         14   indicators that the person may be a greater risk of

         15   suicide.  Our staff are trained to report those

         16   issues to the institution psychologist, who does an

         17   assessment.  We can then take any different number

         18   of actions, including suicide watch, medication,

         19   other kinds of interventions as appropriate.  Our

         20   staff are trained, we monitor trends over time, and

         21   we communicate those as part of our annual training


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          1   to all staff to make sure we continue to try to keep

          2   that rate as low as possible.

          3             HARLEY LAPPIN:  As far as homicide, we

          4   have done a similar assessment of the homicides,

          5   like Doctor Baxter.  But not unlike state or local

          6   organizations, you're going to find, a lot of times

          7   disrespect issues between an inmate or two that

          8   results in a homicide or some gang-related business

          9   that was ongoing.  Again, we can provide you kind of

         10   an overview of the homicides that have occurred and

         11   what we have determined could have been an aggregate

         12   matter.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Doctor Baxter, could I

         14   ask you a couple of questions as long as you're

         15   here?  The profile of a sexual predator in prison

         16   and a profile of a victim.  Who are the most

         17   vulnerable people and who are the most predatory?

         18             JOHN BAXTER:  Are you asking about

         19   predatory toward other inmates or staff?

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Start with

         21   inmate-on-inmate.


                                                                      295

          1             JOHN BAXTER:  I think those who are at

          2   greater risk upon preying on others are, first and

          3   foremost, typically people who have a history of

          4   violence in their background.  Those who prey on

          5   others typically have a pattern of disregarding the

          6   rights of other individuals.  They sometimes will

          7   study the individuals they expect to target for

          8   sexual favor or assault, and then they will groom

          9   that individual over time and try to establish a

         10   relationship where the target of their advance is

         11   perhaps -- owes them something or feels that they

         12   owe them something.  And so there's a -- I don't

         13   have as clear a pattern that I could offer you in

         14   terms of that.  I really have nothing to add other

         15   than what Doctor Walters' testimony was earlier in

         16   terms of adding to the profile that he presented.

         17   Certainly, inmates who -- are sophisticated in terms

         18   of understanding the interpersonal issues and the

         19   ways that they may present themselves in a prison to

         20   maintain their own personal safety.  Inmates who

         21   either grant favors or take favors from other


                                                                      296

          1   inmates may be at greater risk, perhaps further

          2   downstream, of being targeted for some type of

          3   sexual favor or they're targeted for something that

          4   they may have taken -- they thought was a gift but

          5   there's strings attached.

          6             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Doctor, is there --

          7   can you address the notion that frequently certain

          8   types of individuals gravitate toward law

          9   enforcement positions, and that they may have some

         10   issues of their own associated with power and

         11   control?  Can you address, just a notion?

         12             JOHN BAXTER:  I've not done any study of

         13   that, and I know that that is perhaps one of the

         14   stereotypes that may be presented in some of the

         15   entertainment media.  Frankly, I think the people

         16   that I work with are very dedicated professionals

         17   and I don't see that type of power orientation as

         18   any type of a mainstream influence in what brought

         19   them to decide to be civil servants and serve

         20   society in the way they do.

         21             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Seen any relationship


                                                                      297

          1   to staff who may have difficulty or may have had

          2   charges of domestic violence in their personal

          3   lives?

          4             JOHN BAXTER:  Our policy is very strict,

          5   and others here can comment on domestic violence,

          6   but we cannot employ someone as a Federal law

          7   enforcement officer, and all of us are considered

          8   Federal law enforcement officers, if they have a

          9   confirmed charge of domestic violence.

         10             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  If that becomes known

         11   during the course of their employment, what happens?

         12             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Actually, it has happened.

         13   A few years ago it was actually added as a criteria,

         14   and so as background investigations occurred on a

         15   five-year basis -- on a five-year basis, we learned

         16   of convictions for this type of behavior and we

         17   would then pursue termination procedures.

         18             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Very good.

         19             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Again, not all of them

         20   result in that because through the course of the --

         21   of course, the employees have rights, and sometimes


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          1   through a third party people are reinstated, but in

          2   many cases terminations occur.

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Lieutenant, do you have

          4   anything to do with the custodial classification of

          5   any -- of new inmates?

          6             BRUCE KOVACH:  We -- yes, the SIS office

          7   would consist of myself and technicians -- do go

          8   through receiving/discharge area when buses arrive.

          9   But we do look for standouts of gang activity,

         10   anybody that's had problems at other institutions.

         11   And we don't really play a part in a classification.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Where is that done?

         13   Who does that?

         14             BRUCE KOVACH:  Classification?

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Yes.

         16             BRUCE KOVACH:  It comes through receiving

         17   and discharge, and the unit team deals with that.

         18   We look for specific instances, for flags and so

         19   forth, and interview, like I said, gang members.

         20   Somebody that maybe Ms. Leonard or somebody from her

         21   department would see with tattoos that look like


                                                                      299

          1   they could be gang-related, and we'll often

          2   photograph those and evaluate those, but the actual

          3   classification is done more by the team.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Ms. Leonard, could you

          5   talk to us about what R&D -- how it classifies, what

          6   kind of factors?  We talked generally about it, but

          7   what specifically --

          8             AMY LEONARD:  The inmates are already

          9   pre-classified before they arrive at our institution

         10   by our community corrections staff.  They have

         11   access to the inmates, present their report.  If

         12   they're a brand new -- if they're a transfer from

         13   another institution, the staff from that institution

         14   would have already classified them.  So we have a

         15   pretty good idea of what general type of inmate they

         16   are or what special needs they might have, prior to

         17   them even arriving.  But as an extra step, when they

         18   arrive, a counselor or a case manager or myself,

         19   unit manager, would conduct what we call the intake

         20   screening process and social interview, where we

         21   would again go through that inmate's central file,


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          1   if one were already established, if he transferred

          2   from another facility, or go through his presentence

          3   report, judgment commitment order from the court,

          4   any other information that might be available.  And,

          5   again, determine -- make sure that that general

          6   classification, that preliminary classification, is

          7   in fact correct.  We also do a social survey, it's

          8   an intake screening questionnaire we ask the inmate.

          9   We specifically ask them if they have any concerns

         10   releasing to general population.  Maybe there's some

         11   sort of personal conflict with another inmate that

         12   they know is there from the street that we might not

         13   know about, might not be related to their offense,

         14   or if they have any gang affiliations that we might

         15   not know about.  If they claim that.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you ask specifically

         17   about sexual assault?  Sexual orientation?

         18             AMY LEONARD:  Yes, we do.  We do not ask

         19   sexual orientation.  We do ask each inmate two

         20   questions related -- the first question is, have you

         21   ever been sexually assaulted?  And then they have


                                                                      301

          1   the opportunity at that point to reveal things that

          2   could have happened at other institutions, could

          3   have happened in transit, or could have happened

          4   from childhood.  If they answer affirmatively to

          5   that question, we would forward that information to

          6   Doctor Walters or forward it to Doctor Terry Backer

          7   and her staff so that they can do proper follow-up.

          8   And then we also ask them, have you recently been

          9   sexually assaulted?  So even if during the first

         10   question, if they decide to disclose childhood

         11   events, we can also narrow it down to see if there's

         12   anything further.  One of the other questions, it's

         13   not a question that we ask the inmate because we

         14   don't expect the inmate to always self-disclose it,

         15   but there is a space on the questionnaire where we

         16   document that we have reviewed his file thoroughly

         17   and we note any sexually aggressive behavior --

         18   aggressive behavior that that inmate might have

         19   displayed in the past which would probably make him

         20   more likely to display sexually aggressive behavior

         21   in the future.  We also flag that and we also refer


                                                                      302

          1   that to our SIS lieutenant, the psychologist, so

          2   they can do proper follow-up and proper monitoring

          3   as far as that.

          4             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Steve, if I can.  Some of

          5   those folks that are flagged, that are such a

          6   concern, the lieutenant will actually create a

          7   posted picture card file, and that file will go in

          8   the lieutenant's office.  The warden signs off,

          9   saying, because of this behavior, because of this

         10   background, we want staff to be more aware of this

         11   individual's background tendency, so on and so

         12   forth.  The staff, I believe, are required to review

         13   the posted picture file.  How often?

         14             BRUCE KOVACH:  Correctional staff is

         15   monthly.

         16             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Every month.  So this file

         17   would be in the lieutenant's office, and every month

         18   staff are expected to review that file so they will

         19   see the high-profile inmates within that facility.

         20   The other checks and balances, correct me if I'm

         21   wrong, Ms. Leonard, even before the inmate arrives,


                                                                      303

          1   the institution receives the custody and

          2   classification form on the inmate.  Within a certain

          3   amount of time, they have to review that paperwork

          4   to make sure there were no errors in the

          5   preceding -- in the work preceding the receipt of

          6   that information to the institution.  So she

          7   mentioned the community corrections folks.

          8   Actually, now it's all done in one location, which

          9   is in Grand Prairie, Texas.  So every new

         10   commitment, all their information goes to one

         11   location, where there are staff who are trained on

         12   how to do the custody classification form.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Let me ask you about

         14   that, Director.  How does the classification differ

         15   for female inmates?

         16             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I think it's -- the same

         17   form, correct me if I'm wrong.  The same factors.

         18   But certainly could be some variation in the

         19   interview techniques, questions and so forth.  But

         20   they are the same factors for determining security

         21   and custody for females as males, although there are


                                                                      304

          1   really only two security levels for females, minimum

          2   and everybody else, because we primarily find just a

          3   handful of offenders who fall under the high

          4   category.  So when you look at the female population

          5   of the Bureau, which is about 14,000 offenders,

          6   probably 40 fall under what's considered the high

          7   category of behavior --

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Forty out of 14,000.

          9             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Correct.  The remainder

         10   fall into lows.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Be like Squeaky --

         12             HARLEY LAPPIN:  There's actually at least

         13   one offender on death row that would fall into that

         14   category.  But similar classification, maybe a

         15   little different approach in the interview

         16   discussion with the offender.  Prior to them

         17   arriving, the R&D staff look at the work that has

         18   been done.  If they identify a mistake, they go back

         19   to the designating -- or the folks that designated

         20   that individual and say, I think there's an error in

         21   here.  If they agree, they might change the


                                                                      305

          1   classification and the designation of that offender

          2   to another facility, if in fact there was an error

          3   made.  So a number of checks and balances in that

          4   process before it even gets to the unit staff who

          5   sit down, in many cases for the first time, and

          6   actually interview the offender and draw on that

          7   expertise and their assessment of that person as an

          8   individual as to the consistency of what the form

          9   says and what they actually see and observe and hear

         10   from the offender.

         11             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How does that custodial

         12   assessment differ from, or is it supplemented in

         13   regards to, housing?  What additional information,

         14   Ms. Leonard, are you going to want to know before

         15   you make a housing assignment, a cellmate

         16   assignment?

         17             AMY LEONARD:  As far as housing unit

         18   assignments go, there is also part of that form

         19   where it would indicate whether there is any

         20   pre-known psychological -- severe mental health or

         21   psychological problems.  So, again, we would refer


                                                                      306

          1   that to Doctor Walters and his staff, and he would

          2   make a determination based on that individual case

          3   what would be the most appropriate housing

          4   assignment for that inmate.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Who is making that

          6   assessment of severe mental health and

          7   psychological?

          8             AMY LEONARD:  Again, it would be from past

          9   records, from the presentence report.  For a new

         10   inmate, it would have been entered by staff at Grand

         11   Prairie, or if it were a transfer, from psychology

         12   staff at the prior institution.  Same thing for

         13   medical needs.  If they have any special medical

         14   needs that they might -- and a lot of times it's

         15   just the personal interaction with the inmate, what

         16   kind of fit would be best.  When you're there for so

         17   long, you get to know all the units and you get to

         18   know where people might best adjust.  We do look at

         19   demographics.  We try not to let any one group of

         20   inmates, whether it be older inmates, young inmates,

         21   white inmates, black inmates, whether it be


                                                                      307

          1   affiliations with certain gangs -- we try to balance

          2   all that out and spread it among the units so that

          3   we don't have any one group taking over an area.

          4   And not only do we do that with housing assignments,

          5   we do that with work assignments also.  We monitor

          6   that.  And if we see any one group trying to

          7   gravitate towards one area, we will redistribute.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Are you involved in the

          9   work assignments?

         10             AMY LEONARD:  Yes, I am.

         11             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I did have a question

         12   relative to racial issues.  And I guess the first

         13   part would be when an inmate -- do inmates typically

         14   abuse inmates of the same racial -- is it, for

         15   instance, white-on-white, black-on-black?

         16             AMY LEONARD:  I wouldn't know that because

         17   we haven't really had any cases.

         18             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Then I must go through

         19   the Director in terms of general information across

         20   the board that you may have related to some -- to

         21   certain racial issues.


                                                                      308

          1             HARLEY LAPPIN:  It varies.  There is

          2   certainly assaults that occur amongst the race, I

          3   guess.  It varies from location to location,

          4   incident to incident.  I'll go back to our research

          5   folks to see if we have specific characteristics of

          6   the assaults.  I'm not sure we go down that far.

          7   Certainly in my experience as a warden and associate

          8   warden in institutions, that violence certainly

          9   occurs against members of the same race, members of

         10   the same gang.  In fact, if you go back, take a look

         11   at, the look at these homicides, oftentimes it's

         12   within a gang, oftentimes it's within the same race.

         13   Sometimes it's not.  Oftenitems it's a disrespect

         14   issue, can be somebody from a different gang or

         15   different race that has kind of resulted in that

         16   type of behavior and conduct.

         17             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  But frequently they

         18   are racially?

         19             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Frequently they are from

         20   the same race or same geographic, own common

         21   denominator.


                                                                      309

          1             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  In terms of gangs,

          2   various groups, various cultures within cultures, do

          3   these folks gravitate together in terms of where

          4   they are housed?  Would we have like the Hispanic

          5   block?

          6             HARLEY LAPPIN:  As Ms. Leonard mentioned,

          7   given the fact they are responsible for assigning

          8   the housing, the bed that we assign that inmate,

          9   they can monitor that unit-by-unit basis.

         10             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  And you try as best

         11   you can --

         12             HARLEY LAPPIN:  To balance that

         13   institution.  We've taken the same approach

         14   Bureau-wide.  As the designators, they designate

         15   people -- they are monitoring that as well, what

         16   percentage of the population is African-American,

         17   Hispanic, white, so on and so forth, to try to have

         18   institutions that are balanced, as well as the

         19   numbers of known gang members, or STGs, that inmates

         20   would have certain assignments to try and do our

         21   best to balance that population out.  It's not easy.


                                                                      310

          1   There are a lot of gang members, a lot of inmates

          2   with special assignments that make it a challenge.

          3   We continue to try to improve on that system.  And

          4   then it's complicated because you have a number of

          5   offenders who are separated from other inmates.  I

          6   don't know exactly what percentage today, I used to

          7   know but I've forgotten, but inmates separated from

          8   somebody else in the system, either because they

          9   testified for or against someone, possibly got into

         10   an altercation in an institution, could have been

         11   assaulted in some way, and therefore we don't want

         12   them housed in the same facility.  So it does make

         13   it a bit complicated to try to get the folks in the

         14   right assignments.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Ms. Leonard, who has

         16   the authority at Schuylkill to change a housing

         17   assignment, change cellmates?

         18             AMY LEONARD:  Within the unit, the

         19   counselor in the unit makes all decisions -- almost

         20   all decisions for housing assignments.  If there

         21   would be a problem, if an inmate comes to me with a


                                                                      311

          1   complaint, as their counselor supervisor, I could

          2   certainly intervene.  But generally the counselor

          3   monitors the housing assignments within the unit.

          4   If, for some reason, the inmate would have a request

          5   to move from one housing unit to another housing

          6   unit, that decision would be made by the unit

          7   manager then.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Yourself.

          9             AMY LEONARD:  Yes.  Or if it was between

         10   my unit, I would make that decision myself.  If it

         11   was from my unit to the other unit manager, we would

         12   get together and make that decision.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What factors would be

         14   acceptable for granting such a request?

         15             AMY LEONARD:  Again, generally it would

         16   really have to be a very, very good reason, because

         17   we want to keep control of the housing assignments,

         18   not the inmates.  Typically, if an inmate is

         19   requesting to move from one unit to another, there's

         20   normally some sort of reason behind it.  Maybe he

         21   wants to get with another buddy from the street,


                                                                      312

          1   wants to live with him and they want to conduct some

          2   inappropriate activity.  Again, maybe all one gang

          3   is trying to locate themselves in one area.  I've

          4   seen them do it because they are in a softball

          5   tournament and he's a softball player and they need

          6   a good shortstop.  There's a variety of reasons.

          7   But, again, it would have to be something really

          8   serious or legitimate.  Maybe some sort of conflict,

          9   not enough of a conflict that we would separate the

         10   inmates, but just that it might be better if they

         11   stay away from each other, get out of the same unit,

         12   something like that.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Would one of the good

         14   reasons be that the individual expressed concern for

         15   their safety from a sexual predator?

         16             AMY LEONARD:  Absolutely.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Have you ever heard of

         18   that?

         19             AMY LEONARD:  I have never had anybody

         20   come to me and say they were concerned for their

         21   safety from a sexual predator.  But if that were the


                                                                      313

          1   case, if somebody were to come to me, most likely

          2   that housing unit assignment change would be to the

          3   special housing unit because they have made

          4   allegations of sexual victimization and we want to

          5   make sure we investigate it fully.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So their options are,

          7   keep on putting up with it or go to the SHU?

          8             AMY LEONARD:  If I were an inmate -- I see

          9   what you're saying, but I would not take my options

         10   as that.  I would say, if I was seriously being

         11   victimized, yes, I would go to the special housing

         12   unit.  But it's not punitive, it's not torture, it's

         13   not -- and the alternative would be to be a victim.

         14   I would much rather make sure that -- and I know the

         15   staff at Schuylkill would take my allegations

         16   seriously and rather have them investigate it.  And

         17   if my allegations were indeed true, take appropriate

         18   action that way rather than --

         19             HARLEY LAPPIN:  At that point, it's

         20   completely taken out of their responsibility.  If

         21   they are alleging they have been assaulted or fear


                                                                      314

          1   they're going to be assaulted, moving them to

          2   another housing unit isn't going to solve the

          3   problem because there's too many opportunities for

          4   those inmates to connect, either on a recreation

          5   yard, in an education area, in food service.  And

          6   number one is their safety.  Number one.  And if

          7   it's determined -- again, if someone made

          8   allegations to me, I'm going to assume it's true

          9   until it's proven otherwise.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do folks in the SHU

         11   have visitation rights?

         12             AMY LEONARD:  Yes.

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  The same as GP?

         14             AMY LEONARD:  They have visitation rights

         15   unless their privileges were taken for a punitive

         16   measure, for a disciplinary measure.  But they do --

         17   they can visit -- same visiting -- I believe it's --

         18             HARLEY LAPPIN:  There are two categories

         19   of segregation, disciplinary segregation and then

         20   there's ad seg.  So administrative segregation, you

         21   have many of the same privileges that others do,


                                                                      315

          1   other than movement.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Or education.

          3             HARLEY LAPPIN:  We actually do do some

          4   education in some ways.  It's limited, without a

          5   doubt.  Granted, in their eyes they do see it as

          6   punitive.  But the bottom line is their safety.  And

          7   we provide as many of those services we can possibly

          8   provide during that time they are in there.  It is

          9   very limited.  They will have visiting privileges,

         10   phone privileges, although limited, like other

         11   offenders.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I want to thank you all

         13   very much for your time.  We have Doctor Baxter,

         14   thanks for your ad lib testimony.  And we're now

         15   going to hear from the warden at Schuylkill.  Warden

         16   Sniezek, if you wouldn't mind coming to join us.

         17   Warden Sniezek, would you mind raising your right

         18   hand?  Do you solemnly swear that the testimony

         19   you're about to give will be the truth, the whole

         20   truth, and nothing but the truth?

         21             TOM SNIEZEK:  I do.


                                                                      316

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And your full name,

          2   sir.

          3             TOM SNIEZEK:  Thomas R. Sniezek.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And you're the warden

          5   at Schuylkill?

          6             TOM SNIEZEK:  That's what they tell you.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That's what they tell

          8   you.  That's what they pay you for?

          9             TOM SNIEZEK:  Yes, sir.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And how long have you

         11   been warden?

         12             TOM SNIEZEK:  Warden at that facility,

         13   approximately one year at that facility.  Total time

         14   with the Bureau, 31 years after graduate school,

         15   starting at Leavenworth.  And prior to coming to

         16   Schuylkill, I was warden in Elkton, Ohio for almost

         17   three years.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Were you warden at

         19   Schuylkill when your BJS survey was administered?

         20             TOM SNIEZEK:  Yes, I was.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Now, what was Ronnie


                                                                      317

          1   Holtz's term at Schuylkill, when did he --

          2             TOM SNIEZEK:  Believe it or not, I have a

          3   knack for knowing these little details.  I believe

          4   Ronnie started there August 8, 2004.  I'll bet you

          5   $100 on that.  Stayed there until April 28 of last

          6   year, until he got transferred.  The reason I can

          7   say that, sir, I started at Elkton, Ohio August 8,

          8   2004, which is the same day he started at

          9   Schuylkill.  That's the only reason I know it.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And why did he only

         11   last eight months at Schuylkill?  Nobody else seems

         12   to leave Schuylkill.  He became warden in August of

         13   '04 to the end of April of '05?

         14             TOM SNIEZEK:  No, no.  April '07.  My

         15   apologies if I said '05.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Okay.  We haven't

         17   talked to anybody that's been at Schuylkill less

         18   than 16 years.

         19             TOM SNIEZEK:  See, some of us are not as

         20   good as these staff.  That's what it comes down to.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What are you doing


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          1   about the blind spots at Schuylkill?

          2             TOM SNIEZEK:  I heard you ask that to

          3   several people.  First off, no system is perfect, no

          4   institution is perfect.  In fact, I can even relate,

          5   and this may be a little bit off the beaten path.

          6   Five years ago this Friday, I was assaulted at USP

          7   Lewisburg in front of a number of staff less than

          8   15 feet away.  The dining unit at Lewisburg seats

          9   480 inmates, and one time an inmate tried to cut my

         10   throat.  And I was talking to the psychologist and

         11   the business manager.  Now, this is on tape.  You

         12   can watch it.  He did it in 1.2 seconds.  Lewisburg

         13   is still a very safe facility.  Because after I went

         14   and got sewed up, I came back to the institution.

         15   Now, I can walk away -- at that time, I can leave

         16   with 31 years, I already had 26 in, I could have

         17   retired, I could have left.  But the agency is a

         18   great agency.  And number two, that's a very safe

         19   place to work and I would go back there in a

         20   heartbeat no different than I did on that day.

         21   People get killed in automobiles every day, but


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          1   nobody quits driving.  It's still a safe way to go.

          2   So you need to understand that in any element,

          3   whether in corrections, whether in the private

          4   sector, whether in the community, things happen.  It

          5   doesn't make it that the system is broke.  So going

          6   back to your question about blind spots, there are

          7   blind spots everywhere, absolutely.  But as

          8   Lieutenant Kovach said, with the 130-something

          9   cameras we have, is it perfect?  Absolutely not.

         10   But due to the efforts of staff getting out --

         11   Ms. Leonard is on the unit, she works the late -- we

         12   have usually unit staff from 6:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m.,

         13   Monday through Friday.  We have staff on weekends.

         14   We're open 24/7.  Now --

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Not open in the literal

         16   sense.

         17             TOM SNIEZEK:  Open in the sense if you

         18   call somebody will answer the phone.  How does that

         19   sound with that?  But even then the place runs

         20   different.  Myself, I go in at different times.  The

         21   place runs different on evenings, et cetera.  Now,


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          1   my situation is different, I'm older, my kids are

          2   grown, the whole deal, but I go in on the weekends.

          3   A lot of other staff do the same thing.  I'm not the

          4   only one.  But as a rule I still shake-down inmates,

          5   I still strip-search inmates.  We're all

          6   correctional workers first.  You should never forget

          7   that premise.  So going to your thing about blind

          8   spots, yes, they are.  Do we have the money to put

          9   in every place?  Absolutely not.  That's why it's

         10   imperative you get out of your office, you make

         11   rounds, you walk around here.  You have to be

         12   accessible.  These people cannot reach up to you,

         13   you have to reach down to them, and the only way to

         14   do it is getting out and about.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you tell new inmates

         16   where the blind spots are and warn them about it?

         17             TOM SNIEZEK:  No, absolutely not.

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Why not?

         19             TOM SNIEZEK:  Number one, I've never had

         20   anybody ask me.  Number two, you say warn them about

         21   it.  One thing is, I think it would be literally


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          1   impossible for me to cover every spot.  My first

          2   year at Leavenworth in '77, 13 inmates got killed

          3   and most of them didn't get killed in blind spots.

          4   And we had no cameras back at that time.  So what

          5   happens across the board here, warning them about

          6   it?  I can't cover every possible scenario.  I think

          7   that's literally impossible.  What I can tell them

          8   and what I do tell them during admission and

          9   orientation is how you carry yourself.  That is what

         10   is important.  Like I ask them -- I usually ask them

         11   every week, how many of you are doing less than ten

         12   years?  The overwhelming majority do -- say that,

         13   for instance, we have less than ten years.  Since

         14   the average man now lives until 77, and you're in

         15   your 30s, you're going to see the streets again, so

         16   why wouldn't -- if you stay out of the things like

         17   gambling, betting, that type thing, you know,

         18   consensual sex -- it happens.  Let's not deny that,

         19   it happens out here in the community.  We have

         20   10,000 police officers in New York City but crime

         21   happens every day.  It's not a perfect system.


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          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Can consensual sex

          2   occur in prison?

          3             TOM SNIEZEK:  Absolutely.  To say -- to

          4   not say it would say people don't breathe.  As

          5   Ms. Leonard said, do we tolerate it?  Absolutely

          6   not.  You can't do that.  Does it happen?

          7   Absolutely.  I think you would be naive to say that.

          8   I heard you mention earlier about this -- what are

          9   called the blue wall or code.  When Al Pacino

         10   starred in a movie back in 1977, he ran into what

         11   was called the blue wall.  I bring that up in A.R.T.

         12   every year.  Your true friends will not put you in

         13   harm's way.  They will not ask you to lie, they will

         14   not ask you to cover up.  Number two, you're putting

         15   your own livelihood -- we already know the

         16   difference between right and wrong, it's just a

         17   matter of whether we want to do anything about it.

         18   That's what it comes down to.

         19             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  If I may, what

         20   happened to the inmate that attempted to cut your

         21   throat?


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          1             TOM SNIEZEK:  His name was Jose Vega.  He

          2   was already serving a life sentence and a

          3   consecutive 99-year sentence.  He was a hit man for

          4   a Hispanic drug organization in New York.  I went to

          5   his sentencing in the Middle District of

          6   Pennsylvania, which is Williamsport, he pled out to

          7   an additional 15 years consecutive to his life

          8   sentence and 99.  Last I knew, he was housed at the

          9   Administrative -- excuse me, Florence, Colorado,

         10   which we refer to as our Administrative Maximum

         11   facility.

         12             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  What was the impact of

         13   that act on the entire prison?  Surely this isn't

         14   something that typically happens, that someone would

         15   approach the warden?

         16             TOM SNIEZEK:  Please, I was an associate.

         17   I was not the warden.  I was an associate warden at

         18   Lewisburg.

         19             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Even at that, it would

         20   seem to me that is not typical.  Was there an impact

         21   following that?


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          1             TOM SNIEZEK:  Here's the deal.  Being very

          2   candid about it.  In prison, you have to think with

          3   your mind, not with your heart.  Now, the typical

          4   reaction is you lock down, and the place did lock

          5   down for about three hours.  And the whole reason

          6   was, it was assessed that this was not gang-related,

          7   it was not an organized situation, that this was one

          8   person based on the information we had.  I came back

          9   that evening, I had to wait three hours because, you

         10   know, they triage you.  Like I tell inmates -- I

         11   only needed stitches.  So when I came back, I -- we

         12   opened back up at 6:00 p.m. that evening, I walked

         13   all the units that evening.  And the warden at the

         14   time said, I'm still leaving tomorrow, can you be

         15   acting warden?  That's fine.  There was staff that

         16   felt we needed to punish inmates and send a message.

         17   There were people that were very mad.  Fortunately,

         18   when we saw it occur, not only was it on camera, but

         19   another associate warden went and got a handheld

         20   camera and filmed this inmate the entire time so it

         21   couldn't be alleged, and he did eventually allege,


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          1   that we beat him, we drugged him.  Fortunately, that

          2   was all on tape.  There was people that felt we

          3   should lock down and punish these inmates.  But when

          4   I walked the cellblocks that evening, it was

          5   interesting, a lot of inmates said, you know, we

          6   thought you were going to unleash hell on us.  As I

          7   tell them, I'm like the mafia, it's not personal,

          8   it's business.  And it was an isolated case and it

          9   was not necessary to do that.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Is it ever necessary?

         11             TOM SNIEZEK:  I think each case is

         12   evaluated on its individual merits.  You have to

         13   make the determination from what information is

         14   available to you at that time, so I can't sit here

         15   and give you a textbook answer to that.  I think

         16   what you have to look at, based on the information

         17   we have, this was an isolated incident.  This

         18   individual did have some, quote, mental health

         19   issues.  However, when he was evaluated at our

         20   medical center in Springfield, Missouri there was no

         21   insanity, anything of that nature, and he came back


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          1   and pled out.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What kind of cases are

          3   there where you do need to teach the inmates a

          4   lesson?

          5             TOM SNIEZEK:  First off, I don't think

          6   there is a place like that.  Remember, there are

          7   some staff -- everybody has a different opinion.

          8   There are some staff who become very emotional about

          9   that.  I didn't say it was right or wrong.  No

         10   different than people in this country who became

         11   very emotional after 9/11, but it doesn't make

         12   everybody who is a Muslim a bad person.  So to

         13   answer your question, I can't say there aren't

         14   probably some people that think that way, but as --

         15   you don't let it come to fruition.  You have an

         16   obligation to take the high road here.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  We've heard a lot of

         18   testimony --

         19             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Mr. Chairman, I can't

         20   resist.  I think I got your question, is there a

         21   time we lock down to punish inmates?  Is that the


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          1   question?

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Yeah.

          3             HARLEY LAPPIN:  We never lock down to

          4   punish inmates.  We lock down to provide a safe,

          5   secure environment.  So based on that assessment, if

          6   it was determined that that incident was

          7   gang-related or had implications beyond that, the

          8   place might stay locked down for a week.  But not to

          9   punish inmates; to be sure we have a safe and secure

         10   environment.  Granted, as the warden said, I don't

         11   care if you go, some folks at the POG, we need to

         12   show these folks they can't do that and we need to

         13   lock them down just to send a message that is

         14   unacceptable.  That's not the reason we lock

         15   institutions.  We send messages sent out explaining

         16   to folks the rationale behind the locking of an

         17   institution down, and what needs to be assessed by

         18   the warden and the executive staff in doing so and

         19   determination of when it should come back on.

         20             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Are there other

         21   alternatives that might realistically be used?  Is


                                                                      328

          1   that inmate, Mr. Vega, going to have an untimely

          2   fall down the stairs in the blind spots.  Are there

          3   other ways to send a message?

          4             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I'm not sure I -- you mean

          5   is there a chance that someone can mistreat that

          6   inmate because he assaulted --

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  We need to send a

          8   message short of locking all --

          9             HARLEY LAPPIN:  If that occurred, it would

         10   be misconduct.  It might -- they might be breaking

         11   the law, they're abusing a ward of the court.  So

         12   could it happen?  Yes.  Has it happened?  Probably

         13   has.  But certainly that's not acceptable.  That's

         14   unacceptable behavior.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Has that ever happened

         16   in your 31 years?

         17             TOM SNIEZEK:  Would you reword the

         18   question, please?

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Has any officer in any

         20   institution you're aware of, or that you worked for,

         21   harmed an inmate for punitive purposes, to teach


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          1   them a lesson, to pay them back for having sliced

          2   the neck of an associate warden or something else?

          3             TOM SNIEZEK:  Let me first off, as the

          4   Director clearly said, I hoped what happened on

          5   March 14 five years ago showed that we were not in

          6   any way, shape, or form trying to hurt inmates.  We

          7   opened less than three hours after it was assessed.

          8   To answer your direct question now, have I heard

          9   stories?  Absolutely.  In 31 years, you hear a lot

         10   of stories.  Again, the operative word here is

         11   stories.  I think people as they tell it over the

         12   years, it's like a fish story, it gets bigger and

         13   bigger.  Now, as I mentioned earlier, we already

         14   know the difference between right and wrong.  We

         15   have an obligation to report this.  If I ever felt

         16   that this is bad, what I'm hearing, I'm going to

         17   report it.  People tell stories of 30, 40 years ago

         18   of what happened.  Is it true?  Heck, I don't know.

         19   When I first got to Leavenworth, they talked about

         20   back in the 60s to discipline inmates you could

         21   chain them outside their cell and let them stand


                                                                      330

          1   there all day.  Is that true?  I don't know.  That's

          2   back in the 50s and 60s.  I don't know.

          3             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Mr. Chairman, it does

          4   happen.  And when it has happened, we have

          5   prosecuted those employees, if the evidence allows,

          6   and we -- if convicted, we have them incarcerated.

          7   We had a recent incident where an inmate has

          8   assaulted an employee, and staff have acted

          9   inappropriately and assaulted the inmate.  So they

         10   are both guilty here.  They broke the code of

         11   conduct, they broke the rules, some broke the law.

         12   It happens on occasion.  And if it does happen and

         13   we become aware of it, number one, there's an

         14   obligation to report, as he indicated.  It's

         15   referred, we investigate.  If, in fact, the employee

         16   broke the law, we pursue prosecution.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Speaking of sexual

         18   assault, if not at Schuylkill, there have been some

         19   high-profile staff sexual misconduct case in the

         20   Bureau, have there not?

         21             HARLEY LAPPIN:  That is correct.


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          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  And what have you

          2   learned from those?

          3             HARLEY LAPPIN:  We probably learned

          4   something from each and every one of those.  We

          5   spoke earlier about the code of silence.  Some of

          6   those cases, some staff knew, saw, heard, and failed

          7   to report.  Can I guarantee that would have led us

          8   to the culprit?  Can't guarantee that.  Probably

          9   increase the chances.  We have enhanced training, we

         10   have raised the standard, the expectation.  We are

         11   assessing --

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Let me stop you there.

         13   We're talking about an institution with zero

         14   incidents, so I'm treading gently here.  But the

         15   person who is making your -- one of your unit

         16   managers is involved with work assignments and

         17   housing assignments, has not had any PREA-specific

         18   training other than the A.R.T., the annual stuff.

         19   What has the Bureau learned about enhanced PREA

         20   training from these high-profile sexual assaults.

         21             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Well, I think some staff


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          1   may be receiving, quote, PREA training and not

          2   realizing they are receiving it.  Let's just go back

          3   to the programs of which you have a copy of.  Again,

          4   staff are attuned to reading program statements, and

          5   most of whom, when they read it, understand the

          6   context, understand what their obligations are.  So

          7   at annual training they go over those more

          8   specifically and address issues related to what

          9   policy requires, whether it's sexual assault,

         10   whether it's use of force, whether it's how we treat

         11   and manage inmates.  For us to go in there and say,

         12   we're going to give you PREA training, that probably

         13   seldom occurs.  It's a relatively new term.  But

         14   staff receives training the first day -- first week

         15   they are on the job, I should say.  Actually, the

         16   first week they're on the job.  All the staff go to

         17   two weeks of institution familiarization, brand new

         18   employees.  And in the first two weeks, as part of

         19   that training, they get information about the

         20   policies, one of which is sexual assault, reporting,

         21   code of conduct.  A few weeks later, they go to


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          1   three weeks of training in Glen Cove, correctional

          2   techniques.  At Glen Cove, they get training.

          3   Nobody sits there and says, this is PREA training,

          4   this is the code of conduct, this is what you do

          5   when someone alleges they have been assaulted, these

          6   are the expectations.  And then, again, every year

          7   every employee goes -- you heard about annual

          8   training.  Every year every employee receives up to

          9   40 hours of training.  And there is an agenda, and

         10   part of that agenda typically is suicide prevention,

         11   reporting sexual assaults, and code of conduct.

         12   You're right, nobody has labeled it PREA training,

         13   but when you look at what the training is, it has a

         14   nexus now to what PREA is.

         15             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Warden Sniezek, do you

         16   have a sexual assault policy and procedure at

         17   Schuylkill?

         18             TOM SNIEZEK:  There is the national

         19   program statement, and each institution is required

         20   to have their own institution supplement.  An

         21   institution supplement is not designed to


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          1   regurgitate the national program statement.  In

          2   other words --

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Yes, I understand.

          4             TOM SNIEZEK:  You would identify it -- as

          5   Doctor Walters indicated earlier, Trish Rodman, the

          6   associate warden, is the coordinator.  It

          7   indicates -- I believe the last time I read our

          8   supplement it was only two pages long.  But the

          9   whole reason is, the national program statement is

         10   very in-depth and covers it so there's no reason to

         11   regurgitate all that.

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Let me ask you this.

         13   With respect to the previous witnesses, there wasn't

         14   a familiarity with a SART, what a sexual assault

         15   response team was, familiarity with procedure or

         16   protocol.  I'm just wondering -- and we have heard a

         17   lot of testimony about vulnerable individuals,

         18   Doctor Baxter and others, as well as the Lieutenant,

         19   profile folks who are vulnerable and folks who are

         20   likely to be predators.  And we've heard about

         21   venues, kitchens, libraries, and so forth.  And yet


                                                                      335

          1   I'm not hearing anything about, well, we -- perhaps

          2   some of the lessons we can learn are, we should do

          3   more of a background check on those who are the

          4   supervising cooks and the folks who are in the most

          5   vulnerable places, the blind spots.  Is that on your

          6   radar screen?

          7             TOM SNIEZEK:  First off, I think -- let me

          8   go back to what you indicated earlier.  The acronym

          9   that you used, you know, at -- each facility,

         10   whether state or Federal, uses different ones.  The

         11   issue comes down to, do you know the procedure?

         12   What I'm very comfortable with is, I feel very

         13   confident you can go to any of our staff, you could

         14   say PREA -- but if he said, an inmate was sexually

         15   assaulted, go, oh, no, we would get a hold of Doctor

         16   Walters, we have to get a hold of Mr. Kovach.  So,

         17   other than terminology, we do know.  And I think I

         18   can speak for the whole agency that way.  So I don't

         19   get caught up, and I'm not saying you are, with the

         20   semantics, but that's what the issue is.  Going

         21   back -- as I said earlier, we're all correctional


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          1   workers first.  I know some people indicated, and

          2   again each institution's layout is different with

          3   it, you indicated food service.  People are going to

          4   gravitate where they are most comfortable.  In my

          5   opinion, I would say most of the time it occurs in

          6   the housing unit, in their individual cell -- not

          7   individual, at minimum there's usually two people to

          8   a cell.  At Schuylkill, there's two to a cell there.

          9   So I would disagree.  Again, now, I didn't say I was

         10   right or wrong.  That's just based upon my personal

         11   observation.  I have no data to present to you to

         12   say I can prove it over anybody else.  I think what

         13   it comes down to is the people want to get together,

         14   whether staff want to hook up with an inmate, or

         15   inmates together, they are going to find that

         16   location.  No different than they do in the

         17   community where people rendezvous at a certain

         18   location.  So, again, I come back to this that for,

         19   one, the system -- our staff are very well aware of

         20   it.  And on these blind spots, again, we have 130,

         21   140-something cameras.  Is the system perfect?


                                                                      337

          1   Absolutely not.  There could be a blind spot -- I

          2   was just looking up here.  You walk this hallway,

          3   there's a blind spot.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  This is not a prison.

          5             TOM SNIEZEK:  It's not a prison.  But

          6   where I'm going is the layout.  There's offices, et

          7   cetera.  With that, it is on the radar screen.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Would you want to put a

          9   camera in your culinary area?

         10             TOM SNIEZEK:  There is one that's going to

         11   be put in the open dining room area.  If I feel --

         12   for instance, I would sooner have another camera in

         13   the rec yard where hundreds of inmates are.  I'm not

         14   saying it's any less, but I think you look for where

         15   the greatest numbers are.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Not for sexual assault?

         17             TOM SNIEZEK:  No, but I'm talking just

         18   across -- let's face it, we cannot just on the radar

         19   screen -- just focus on sexual, we have to focus on

         20   everything.  That's one avenue of it, but I

         21   looked -- most of the time when incidents occur,


                                                                      338

          1   they occur in areas where there's a lot of

          2   population.  Food service, what have you.  Do we

          3   track people?  Absolutely.  It was interesting, I

          4   heard a comment made earlier about these security

          5   threat groups.  I realize you don't have that, but

          6   in this folder here I track the religious leaders

          7   through Mr. Kovach, track, for instance, who is the

          8   leaders of the different security threat groups,

          9   whether gangs, Hispanic, black, white.  We even

         10   chart where they sit in the dining room.  And the

         11   whole reason is for the safety of everybody.  So in

         12   the big scheme of things, if you're making --

         13   saying, shouldn't you also be preventing sexual

         14   assaults and assaults in general, I mean that's what

         15   it is, to make it safe for everybody.  That is the

         16   driving issue.

         17             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Mr. Chairman, if I can.

         18   PREA is relatively new, and I can attest 23 years

         19   ago when I came to the Bureau, I had training in the

         20   Bureau on how to handle sexual assault.  I'm sure

         21   Warden Sniezek has in 31 years.  Now, has the


                                                                      339

          1   information provided evolved, is it more specific?

          2   It is.  I mean, once PREA was passed, it says it on

          3   the first page of our program statement.  Somewhere

          4   in here it says as a result of this law, "in keeping

          5   with Public Law 108, Rape Elimination Act of 2003,

          6   this reissuance changes the definition."  So as

          7   things changed, the program statement evolves, so

          8   it's a living document.  But going back -- and I

          9   think most reputable local, state, and Federal

         10   correctional facilities and -- had procedures in

         11   place to deal with these types of issues.  PREA has

         12   raised our awareness, but, candidly, we don't say to

         13   our staff, this is PREA training.  This is similar

         14   training you had in the past, program statement lays

         15   out what training people will get.  So it may be

         16   that some staff are familiar with the SART --

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I'm not hung up on

         18   acronyms, I'm hung up on why we wouldn't tell new,

         19   first-time inmates, who everybody today has said are

         20   the most vulnerable, inexperienced, not street

         21   smart, not gang-related, weak, small in stature, why


                                                                      340

          1   in the heck wouldn't we tell them, "you probably

          2   want to stay away from several of these places,

          3   there are no cameras there, there's one-on-one

          4   activity there, and you, I hate to say it, are a

          5   prime candidate"?  Why wouldn't we want to tell them

          6   that?  I'm hearing mainly, well, gee, it's going to

          7   happen and we can't put cameras everywhere and crime

          8   happens all over the country.

          9             TOM SNIEZEK:  Sir, if I could.  As the

         10   Director has been a warden and I've been a warden, I

         11   feel I can walk anywhere in a given institution, in

         12   particular Schuylkill.  I don't even draw a radio.

         13   I feel I can walk anywhere and be safe.  And I don't

         14   walk with a group.  I walk by myself.  I think I

         15   would be sending the wrong message to inmates, to my

         16   staff, if I said, "don't go here."  Then we're

         17   saying that we don't run this place.  That's how I

         18   would interpret it, and I take issue with that.

         19   I've always said, if you can walk there, I can walk

         20   there, and so I would have a whole lot of

         21   difficulty -- I have taken great pride, I think our


                                                                      341

          1   agency has taken great pride.  Thirty-one years ago

          2   this was emphasized, you should be able to go

          3   wherever you want and not be in fear.  Because if

          4   you are, then you need to address that area.  So

          5   from my standpoint, I go anywhere, and I do not draw

          6   body armor.  I didn't say I was better for it, but

          7   that's just what I believe.

          8             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Let's go back to your

          9   question on inmates, Mr. Chairman:  why is it we're

         10   not telling inmates don't go here and don't go

         11   there?  Because, again, if our staff carry out what

         12   we expect them to do, they are in those areas so

         13   there's always a fear of omnipresence of community

         14   policing, even in the institution.  I haven't seen a

         15   facility yet that doesn't have blind spots, that --

         16   the cameras are good, they are not the end-all,

         17   save-all.  If I get a camera, all it takes is

         18   somebody to put something over that camera lens.

         19   You no longer have a camera.  Or to disconnect it.

         20   Again, I think it goes back -- our expectations of

         21   staff, them carrying out the responsibility.  I


                                                                      342

          1   haven't seen a facility yet, if there was one we

          2   would certainly be looking at it, that don't have

          3   blind spots, that don't have offices that people can

          4   get access to.  Certainly, we limit their access to

          5   those offices at certain hours of the operation.  In

          6   the evenings there may be areas that we don't want

          7   anybody going to, there's no need for them to go

          8   to -- to preclude the availability of that.  Even in

          9   the housing unit, offices, no cameras in the office.

         10             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Granted that there are

         11   blind spots all around, what is wrong with making

         12   people aware of the dangers surrounding blind spots.

         13             I must go backward, Warden, to what you're

         14   saying in terms of you would walk anywhere.  And I

         15   just heard you describe that there was an attempt on

         16   your life, and that was out in the open, let alone

         17   in a blind spot.  It would seem to me that in the

         18   wider society we make people aware all the time of

         19   dangerous areas.  That's a responsibility in terms

         20   of crime prevention, to ensure that people are

         21   cautious and are enlightened about dangerous areas.


                                                                      343

          1   What is wrong, as Mr. Chair says, in making a young,

          2   vulnerable inmate aware?  We talked earlier this

          3   morning about the orientation that inmates receive,

          4   is it a down and dirty, realistic view of what

          5   prison life is about and the dangers and so forth.

          6   Would there be anything wrong across the board in

          7   terms of the morale in helping inmates to recognize

          8   where the danger areas are?

          9             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I think in general we --

         10   prisons are dangerous places.

         11             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Granted.

         12             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Bad things happen, no

         13   different than other locations.  We acknowledge

         14   that, there is a threat here.  How you manage

         15   yourself, how you conduct yourself, your adherence

         16   to our expectations to the codes, to the -- your

         17   behavior impact how well you're going to do here.

         18   Without a doubt, most of them have enough

         19   understanding of that to be cautious of where they

         20   go, who they associate with.  So those discussions

         21   occur.  We don't sit there and say, you shouldn't go


                                                                      344

          1   there and you shouldn't go there, because that, you

          2   shouldn't go here, shouldn't go there, could change

          3   to another location.  So bottom line is they

          4   understand, they should understand, through the

          5   orientation, that you're in a place that could be

          6   threatening.  You're going to associate with folks

          7   who try to take advantage of you.  There are going

          8   to be people who try to manipulate you.  Could be a

          9   number of those things.  If you have concerns about

         10   your safety, tell us.  Tell us, so we can address

         11   those issues specifically with the inmate.  I'm

         12   afraid to go into this area because of whatever.

         13   It's not because of the room, it's because of who is

         14   in that room or who has access to the room.  We need

         15   to get to the who, not necessarily the conditions of

         16   the facility, so we can deal with these individuals

         17   who are presenting that threat so we can remove them

         18   and house them in a more restrictive environment,

         19   higher security level, consistent with the behavior

         20   that seems to be prevalent during a period of

         21   incarceration.


                                                                      345

          1             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I would think there

          2   would be a heightened sense of fear, too, in a

          3   prison where someone has been hurt, where a warden

          4   has been hurt, certainly from staff and inmates as

          5   well.

          6             TOM SNIEZEK:  But if I could add to what

          7   the Director just said.  His point is so on target.

          8   It's not the area, it's the people that are

          9   threatening and being so cognizant of that.  I guess

         10   when I look at it, the area is very safe.  It's

         11   monitoring these people.  And there are people out

         12   there that are not here to follow the rules, there

         13   are people that want to prey on other people, and

         14   you know that well, so we remove that element.  I'm

         15   only one person.  If it wasn't for the staff behind

         16   me, the 284 staff and their commitment, we wouldn't

         17   be here.  This is not an Army of one.  It's like

         18   fingers on your hand coming together.  So, as a

         19   result, you can run a safe environment, a safe

         20   prison, like Schuylkill is, and its history is well

         21   established before I got there.  And I think, again,


                                                                      346

          1   it comes down to accessibility.  I'm on the compound

          2   every day, they are out there.  You have to reach

          3   down to these people.  Again, inmates, as a rule,

          4   want to be safe.  We as human beings want to be

          5   safe.  They will point out to you who they believe

          6   are predators, who is trying to run things, and

          7   there's times we have had situations where inmates

          8   will come, you locked up the wrong people.

          9             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Warden, do you train

         10   new prisoners how to protect themselves?

         11             TOM SNIEZEK:  Do I train them?

         12             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Does your staff train

         13   them?

         14             TOM SNIEZEK:  New prisoners.  You mean

         15   physically, like self-defense?

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How to avoid getting

         17   hurt?

         18             TOM SNIEZEK:  It comes down to what we

         19   talk about in admission and orientation, what Doctor

         20   Walters brought up here, what I bring up to them,

         21   what the Captain brings up to them in correctional


                                                                      347

          1   services, what unit management -- if you do your

          2   time and stay out of silliness -- example, you don't

          3   need to gamble.  That will cause you a lot of

          4   problems.  People gamble all the time.  You try to

          5   tell them avoid the pitfalls.  Don't borrow from

          6   people.  If you said, look, I have very little

          7   money, here, here's a six-pack of coke, you can pay

          8   me back later, that's going down a road that's

          9   probably not really good.  They're already got their

         10   foot in the door, so to speak.  Do we educate them

         11   on those kind of things?  Absolutely.  So avoid --

         12   don't --

         13             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you, in addition to

         14   not gambling or borrowing, do you tell them warning

         15   signals of sexual predatation?  How to tell that

         16   somebody is going to be coming on to you?

         17             TOM SNIEZEK:  I think --

         18             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Avoid those

         19   circumstances?

         20             TOM SNIEZEK:  To say I come out and say

         21   that directly, absolutely not.  Do I tell people how


                                                                      348

          1   you conduct yourself professionally with other

          2   people on the staff --

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  I'm sorry, I'm still

          4   with intake, admission, orientation, new prisoner.

          5   I just heard that you tell them don't gamble, don't

          6   borrow, don't get in debt.  Do you give them any

          7   guidance, does your staff give them any guidance,

          8   does Ms. Leonard give them any guidance about how to

          9   avoid -- how to spot somebody who may be ultimately

         10   going to assault you in some way, including

         11   sexually?  Warning signs, red flags?

         12             TOM SNIEZEK:  I think -- I can't speak for

         13   Ms. Leonard.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Why doesn't she come on

         15   up here.  Warden, were you done?  Excuse me, go

         16   ahead.

         17             TOM SNIEZEK:  I was just going to mention,

         18   sir, I think, again, it comes back to, there's

         19   always a story behind the story.  I think people, as

         20   a rule, determine either, one, you want something

         21   from me, whether you want me to pay back double, do


                                                                      349

          1   you want to establish a sexual relationship with it.

          2   We all have preconceived notions of who may be

          3   coming on to us, but I can't give you a textbook or

          4   one blanket answer.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Ms. Leonard, would you

          6   mind?  I guess you're still under oath.

          7             AMY LEONARD:  I did just want to clarify.

          8   First of all, this is, and I believe you have a copy

          9   of this, we've also redone it in a nicer version,

         10   but we do have a pamphlet that we hand out to the

         11   inmates immediately upon their arrival at the

         12   institution.  And on page six there's a listing of

         13   avoiding sexual assault.  So we do give the inmate

         14   written guidance as far as immediately when they

         15   enter the institution.  And while I'm speaking, if I

         16   could just clarify.  I'm sorry if I gave you the

         17   impression that I did not receive PREA training.  I

         18   didn't receive PREA training by the name PREA

         19   training, but I do have -- when I did say that I

         20   received annual refresher training, I do have the

         21   lesson plan that they go by for annual refresher


                                                                      350

          1   training.  That does include it and it does list the

          2   Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003.  But mainly,

          3   again, it's, I guess, terminology.  We term it as

          4   sexually abusive behavior prevention and

          5   intervention.  So we do receive the training every

          6   year, and I have received the training, I just did

          7   not -- it wasn't like it was a legal class on the

          8   PREA Act itself, but in practice and as far as

          9   response, we all receive that training.

         10             HARLEY LAPPIN:  While Ms. Leonard is here,

         11   let's address the issue, Steve.  Here's the

         12   individual who appears weak, who appears as though

         13   they could be taken advantage of.  As I mentioned,

         14   when the person rolls in the door and they are

         15   interviewed, if the interviewer senses that of the

         16   individual, they are going to share that, I would

         17   hope, with the inmate's unit team.  I was a former

         18   case manager, former unit employee.  Those types of

         19   discussions, in my experience, occurred one-on-one

         20   with that offender, through the unit manager, case

         21   manager, housing manager, saying, candid discussion,


                                                                      351

          1   you look young, you don't seem to be very assertive.

          2   These are things, and oftentimes we refer to

          3   psychology or elsewhere, to try to improve at least

          4   the appearance of confidence.  But those are inmates

          5   not unlike predators that we're being watchful of.

          6   I'm sure that continues to happen, when we see

          7   someone struggling, making poor decisions, who they

          8   are associating with, who they are communicating

          9   with, who they are wanting to hang out with, we

         10   certainly have those discussions with the

         11   individual.  Now, in a group at A and O you may have

         12   30, 40, 50 inmates.  That's more general in nature.

         13   We're not going to have this big discussion on these

         14   issues if, in fact -- even if there are folks in

         15   there, I think that would be done more one-on-one

         16   than to embarrass someone by saying, I'm talking to

         17   you, young man, because you look like this.  We

         18   wouldn't do that.  We would do it individually,

         19   confidentially to address that issue.  No different

         20   than a guy who comes in that's a predator.

         21             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Has that been your


                                                                      352

          1   experience?

          2             AMY LEONARD:  That's correct.  I have

          3   counseled inmates myself, personally during intake

          4   screening.  If there was a particularly small in

          5   stature, appeared weak or appeared timid, we have

          6   taken extra time and told them -- or if he has an

          7   objectionable offense.  Typically in a prison

          8   setting, sexual offenders, especially child

          9   molesters or related crimes there, tend to be

         10   targeted by the rest of the inmate population.  We

         11   kind of coach them on, you don't want to share your

         12   offense with anybody.  You don't want to share if

         13   you only have a small amount of time left.  You want

         14   to come up with some sort of other story if you're

         15   going to be asked what your offense is if you ever

         16   have any problems.  Maybe you want to cut your hair.

         17   Maybe you don't want to walk around with the long

         18   hair and the ponytail.  That might help you out a

         19   little bit.  We have counseled them individually

         20   when we do come across somebody that we believe,

         21   from our professional judgment, is particularly


                                                                      353

          1   vulnerable.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Do you consider those

          3   factors when you're making job assignments?  You

          4   mentioned earlier you're involved in job

          5   assignments.

          6             AMY LEONARD:  Correct.  All the job

          7   assignments we have, though, there's normally not a

          8   job assignment where you're not going to be

          9   supervised.  There are work supervisors for every

         10   job assignment.  But if there were someone maybe we

         11   thought they would need extra supervision, I might

         12   consider making them the administration orderly,

         13   where their job was to work in my office area to

         14   keep them so -- especially at least until he

         15   adjusted and we determine how he's adjusting and how

         16   well he's adjusted, and then once he comes back on

         17   the in-service and he feels safe and made a name for

         18   himself --

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  What security-level

         20   inmate can work some of these more vulnerable

         21   one-on-one areas, like culinary, library?


                                                                      354

          1             AMY LEONARD:  We're a medium-level

          2   institution, so pretty much almost -- I believe it's

          3   over 90 percent are medium-security inmates.  We

          4   have to have medium-security inmates in every

          5   detail.

          6             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  But don't you exercise

          7   a discretion, some are more medium than others,

          8   you're not going to send everybody one-on-one to --

          9             AMY LEONARD:  Correct.  We do have a work

         10   assignment committee where if an inmate requests a

         11   job change, we will investigate that case.  If the

         12   inmate has a history of escape, we might not want

         13   him working out on the compound.  We do that also

         14   for the sexually related.  It's not that we target

         15   that you might be a victim, because, like I said,

         16   every -- I'm not sure, maybe our institution is

         17   different, but I'm not sure where we're getting

         18   stuck on the kitchen.  My experience in the kitchen

         19   is it's very well supervised, that there are always

         20   staff there.  When we have meals, all staff stand in

         21   line.  There's always a constant foot traffic.  In


                                                                      355

          1   my experience, most of the jobs -- anybody would be

          2   safe there.  But if there were somebody who

          3   expressed some sort of hesitation, there are jobs

          4   available, like I said, like a unit orderly or

          5   education orderly where they would be around staff

          6   more frequently during their job assignment, and

          7   that would be a prime place to put them.

          8             HARLEY LAPPIN:  This monitoring of the

          9   inmates, it goes on continuously.  If the inmate

         10   begins to wear clothing too tight and comes across

         11   as being an effeminate, or could be transgender, we

         12   deal directly with those issues with the offenders.

         13   There is a dress code.  No different than the inmate

         14   who decides he's going to sag them back.  You're

         15   sagging back, that's unacceptable.  No different

         16   than an offender who appears to be effeminate or

         17   coming across that way, we're going to counsel that

         18   offender as to the consequences, what message he's

         19   sending.  And so those things continue -- the unit

         20   team has virtually all control of what occurs with

         21   that offender.  Probably has the closest


                                                                      356

          1   relationship.  No different than the person who

          2   comes into the screening who has assaulted people in

          3   the past.  Their discussion is going to be a little

          4   different.  Theirs is, hey, we see you had these

          5   incidents.  You misbehaved.  We don't accept that.

          6   We're going to monitor you more closely.  We might

          7   put you on a two-hour watch.  What does that mean?

          8   We might say, listen, we want you to check in,

          9   physically go to an employee, tell them who you are,

         10   show them your I.D., and that employee reports to

         11   the control center so we know where you are every

         12   two hours or every hour.  Again, it works on both

         13   extremes given the characteristics of the offender.

         14             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I do have a question.

         15   Is there a way that an officer or staff can remove

         16   himself if and when his personal attraction for a

         17   prisoner would otherwise interfere with his

         18   professional judgment?

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  How about we direct

         20   that to the Warden.

         21             TOM SNIEZEK:  Okay.  Would you repeat that


                                                                      357

          1   one more time, please?

          2             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Is there a way that a

          3   staff person, an officer, can remove himself if and

          4   when his personal attraction for a prisoner would

          5   otherwise interfere with his professional judgment.

          6             TOM SNIEZEK:  If a staff member came

          7   forward to me and said, I'm attracted to this

          8   inmate, in my opinion, it sends up a lot of signs

          9   where, number one, we have an obligation to protect

         10   these people.  And at which time I would look

         11   further in getting involved Doctor Walters and SIS,

         12   and sitting down with this individual -- I'm

         13   concerned at this point.  You've just admitted to

         14   me -- nowhere is that covered in your job

         15   description.  Number two, in my opinion, you're

         16   violating the code of conduct.  Now you're saying

         17   you're attracted.  What is next?  So that is a

         18   warning sign to me that I would definitely evaluate

         19   to take this further.  Because, as I said,

         20   otherwise, if you are talking about, you have an

         21   attraction to an inmate, that is not good at all.


                                                                      358

          1             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  So the word is going to

          2   get out to the CO you definitely don't want to take

          3   that request to the warden.  What about changing the

          4   scenario to personal revulsion?  I would like to get

          5   transferred to C block because if I see this guy

          6   masturbate in my presence one more time, I'm going

          7   to kill him.

          8             TOM SNIEZEK:  I would take it with this,

          9   at which point in time we all have biases and

         10   prejudices.  When you elected to come work for this

         11   agency, you made a decision to put yourself above

         12   this.  So if you feel that his crime is so

         13   heinous -- I can't start switching people around.

         14   Where does it begin and end?  Next thing, you know,

         15   are we going to start with race?  I mean, you have

         16   to put yourself above this, otherwise I would advise

         17   you you're going to need to look for another line of

         18   work.  Because I mean there's every possible

         19   scenario out there.

         20             HARLEY LAPPIN:  And we would deal with the

         21   inmate's misconduct of openly masturbating.  That's


                                                                      359

          1   a violation.  We would deal with that as well.  But

          2   I agree with the Warden, we have a heart to heart

          3   with the employee, are you in the right occupation?

          4   The reverse thought, never had it happen nor have

          5   ever heard it happen, when someone said, I'm

          6   attracted to this inmate.

          7             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  That's probably not a

          8   common problem.

          9             HARLEY LAPPIN:  No, it's not.  If it did

         10   happen, I assure you the Warden's concern -- I would

         11   first look at protecting the inmate.  Either remove

         12   the employee temporarily, put them in a different

         13   assignment, not allow them to work inside the

         14   institution, whatever, until we resolved the issue

         15   and decided, one, is this somebody -- again, we

         16   can't fire them.  You can't fire them from the

         17   standpoint of being attracted to offender.  On the

         18   other hand, you still protect the inmate.

         19             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Mr. Director, is it

         20   your testimony that you have never heard of a

         21   correctional officer being attracted to a female --


                                                                      360

          1             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I know it's happened, I've

          2   just not had anybody come to me and say, I as an

          3   employee in Bureau of Prisons am attracted to this

          4   offender.

          5             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Wouldn't that be

          6   because we just heard what would happen to them if

          7   they did?  That's a sure way to get your pink slip.

          8             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I don't think we could

          9   terminate them.

         10             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  The Warden thinks you

         11   ought to find another line of work, you don't have

         12   much of a future here based on what you just told

         13   me.  So when word gets around -- so it probably

         14   makes sense that you haven't heard.  I'm just

         15   wondering if -- we heard testimony this morning from

         16   the California system that romantic involvement by

         17   particularly female correctional officers does

         18   happen with male inmates for any variety of reasons.

         19   It's not unheard of, it's not just on TV.

         20             HARLEY LAPPIN:  That wasn't the question.

         21   Does that happen in the Bureau of Prisons, does


                                                                      361

          1   sexual conduct occur between male and female staff

          2   with male --

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Does that happen?

          4             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Sure it does, it happens.

          5   It's a violation, it's breaking the law.  For

          6   someone to come and say, I'm attracted to them, I

          7   just haven't had that happen.

          8             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  We just find out after

          9   the fact.

         10             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Yes, after the fact we

         11   find out, oftentimes.  But I just haven't had the

         12   experience of somebody coming to say -- it may have

         13   happened to other folks, I don't know.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Call me naive, but I'm

         15   just wondering if, given your testimony that it sure

         16   happens, and the testimony of California it sure

         17   happens, and the testimony we just heard that the

         18   consequence of being honest on the front end of it

         19   is you lose your job, certainly not going to get

         20   transferred, you might get transferred right out of

         21   the institution or a different line of work.  Would


                                                                      362

          1   it be worth thinking about providing means, not on

          2   the basis of race, not on the basis -- you know,

          3   it's not just, I like the vantage point from cell

          4   block B rather than C or I'm tired of the wallpaper

          5   in B, not that there's any wallpaper, but rather,

          6   hey, no questions asked, I cannot -- I think I am

          7   approaching the line of professionalism with an

          8   unnamed individual or individuals, either staff or

          9   inmate.  I can gut it out and you can -- hopefully,

         10   you know, we won't have a disciplinary incident

         11   report six months from now, but shouldn't there be

         12   an avenue for correctional officers to say that, I'm

         13   doing a lot of overtime, maybe that's not the case,

         14   certainly the case in California, I'm earning a lot

         15   of money but I'm putting in double shifts and I'm

         16   not sure I can take too much more of having feces

         17   thrown on my head by this lunatic who I just as soon

         18   kick down the stairs.

         19             HARLEY LAPPIN:  I guess I'm struggling

         20   here a little bit, Mr. Chairman, because you're

         21   talking about, one, somebody approaching you and


                                                                      363

          1   saying I'm attracted to the inmate.

          2             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  The original question

          3   was personal revulsion.

          4             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Then we went into, I don't

          5   like this guy.  I didn't testify that this person

          6   says -- I don't know exactly what would happen.  I

          7   didn't testify that person would lose their job.  I

          8   doubt they would lose their job.  But there's an

          9   opportunity for us to assess.  Employee approaches

         10   us, says they're attracted to an inmate.  We step

         11   back and, one, we're not going to let them together.

         12   We're going to separate them.  And then we would

         13   determine how to proceed, both with the employee and

         14   with the inmate.  So clearly, you know, the in --

         15   not immediately you're fired.  We don't have the

         16   wherewithal and authority to do that.  So there

         17   would be an assessment period, what do we do in this

         18   situation if it occurred?  It may have happened in

         19   the past, I'm unaware of it, but off the top of my

         20   head there would be an assessment, what do we do

         21   with the employee, what do we do with the inmate,


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          1   and the priority being the safety of the inmate.

          2   And we would figure out how to resolve it.  Employee

          3   could transfer elsewhere, inmate could be

          4   transferred.  A number of things to resolve that

          5   other than termination.  As far as, I don't like the

          6   inmate, I don't want to see him anymore, I agree

          7   with the Warden.  You -- you are expected to rise

          8   above that.  Because if employees begin to say, I

          9   don't like them because they're black, I don't like

         10   them because they're white, I don't like them

         11   because they're Muslim, I don't like them because

         12   they're Christian, that -- our expectation is that

         13   you will manage the inmates you have responsibility

         14   for.  If we sense there's -- does a conflict occur

         15   sometimes?  Do we think sometimes there's a

         16   personality conflict?  We deal with that.  I'm sure

         17   he deals with that occasionally, where, gee, I just

         18   don't think these two people like each other.  Could

         19   be the work supervisor with their employee, it could

         20   be the officer in the housing unit.  And, again, we

         21   step back and assess -- hopefully the employee is


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          1   worldly enough to get beyond that.  Once it's not

          2   this inmate, could be another inmate.  And if that

          3   continues over and over, obviously you've got a lot

          4   of training to do with that employee to get them to

          5   overcome this tendency, that you say, I can't be

          6   around this inmate.  So it happens on occasion.

          7   Sometimes it is the inmate.  Sometimes the inmate

          8   uses that to manipulate to get transfers, I can't be

          9   in the housing unit because I don't like Joe;

         10   therefore, you need to move me into another housing

         11   unit.  Well, we're going to be real cautious.

         12   Ms. Leonard is very cautious about how quickly we

         13   move inmates to other housing just because they

         14   don't like an employee.  Again, I think it's on a

         15   case-by-case basis, period of assessment.  If that

         16   requires them to be separated, we could do that,

         17   either to another housing unit, special housing,

         18   employee working elsewhere.

         19             TOM SNIEZEK:  If I could follow up with

         20   that, Mr. Chairman.  When your question was, the

         21   person came and said, I feel attracted -- number


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          1   one, you definitely have to evaluate.  You cannot

          2   turn a blind eye to that.  So number one, when I

          3   said I don't have a good feeling, one, I can't let

          4   that person walk out as he's apprised me of it, and

          5   we could lead to where we are -- where it becomes

          6   further intimate relations.  In my 31 years when I

          7   have had people -- usually they would say,

          8   hypothetically if you heard, I say, are we talking

          9   about you?  Or, I had a situation in my last

         10   institution, the person just said, you know, I'm

         11   attracted to this inmate.  Well, what turned out,

         12   they were taking phone calls on their cell phone,

         13   they had given -- this female staff member had given

         14   their phone number to inmate.  Had they done

         15   anything, well, they talked on the phone and on the

         16   cell phone.  That's why my -- we're all enclosed by

         17   our previous experiences, and so when I hear, I'm

         18   attracted, right away I'm thinking, every time I've

         19   gone down this road in 31 years it hasn't turned out

         20   very well, and so I do have concerns.  And I think

         21   any reasonable person, he or she would pursue that


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          1   to say we need to evaluate.  I didn't say we're

          2   going to kick him or her out of the door but, my

          3   gosh, we do have to evaluate.

          4             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Any final comments?

          5             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Just one.  I'll be honest

          6   with you, I'm a little concerned that too much of

          7   what I hear is people's perception from what they

          8   think, rather than what actually is occurring.

          9   There is millions of interactions with staff and

         10   inmates every single day, throughout the Bureau of

         11   Prisons, state facilities, most of which are handled

         12   appropriately and professionally.  In our experience

         13   we're talking about a handful of incidents that are

         14   unfortunate, that are unacceptable.  Without a

         15   doubt, we need to deal with those issues.  But I

         16   hope you, at least in our experience, realize day in

         17   and day out -- hundreds of interactions every day

         18   between staff and inmates, inmates and inmates, that

         19   are handled and carried out responsibly,

         20   professionally.  Without a doubt, every day

         21   incidents occur that are unfortunate, some of which


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          1   are a violation of code of conduct, some of which

          2   are violations of the law, and we certainly have to

          3   address those.  Some of what -- like I sympathize

          4   with her, what's the problem with food service?  I

          5   tend to agree with her.  Food service is oftentimes

          6   one of the safest places in the institution.  I'm

          7   more concerned about details that might be

          8   one-on-one, more isolated, more remote, how long

          9   that person has been on a detail.  Those types of

         10   things.  Again, that's just my experience, rather

         11   than, gee, it seems like a lot of these things

         12   happen in food service.  My guess is you might find

         13   a few of them that happened.

         14             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  If -- you've read the

         15   BJS survey?

         16             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Yes.

         17             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  In California, which

         18   has a facility under the lowest incidence, they have

         19   a random -- I don't think you were here this

         20   morning, they have a random survey that indicated

         21   4.4 percent of their staff had experienced sexual


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          1   misconduct or sexual assault.  That's system-wide.

          2             HARLEY LAPPIN:  This is inmates reporting?

          3             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Right.  And maybe it's

          4   overreporting, maybe it's underreporting.  And

          5   you've seen the BJS study that indicates that some

          6   institutions, which we'll be speaking with later

          7   this week, have incidence as high as 95 percent

          8   degree of probability, as high as 10 percent of the

          9   prison population experiencing sexual assault.  Now,

         10   if those numbers are true and you were the director

         11   of one of those systems, would that be more of a

         12   handful that you're talking about or is that a

         13   serious epidemic that really -- we need to see what

         14   we're doing and do something?

         15             HARLEY LAPPIN:  Don't get me wrong,

         16   Mr. Chairman, I want to deal with just a handful,

         17   whether it's one, ten, 50, or 100.  So believe you

         18   me, we're completely in agreement with

         19   philosophically what you're trying to do, the

         20   direction you're going.  On the other hand, prisons

         21   are challenging places.  There are human beings


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          1   there, human beings that have feelings, emotions,

          2   problems, you name it, both staff and inmate alike.

          3   They are human beings, they're not perfect.  And

          4   given that there are going to be unfortunate

          5   circumstances that occur, we want to do everything

          6   we can to limit or eliminate that to occur.  If

          7   there's a way we can better identify individuals

          8   we're hiring, strategies to do that, tests,

          9   evaluations, I think any of us would consider that.

         10   If we can improve the classification system, if

         11   we can improve the design of facilities, without a

         12   doubt we would all consider and move in that

         13   direction.  Whether it's one -- in my opinion, one,

         14   ten, 15, 20, 100, one is too many.  But I just hope

         15   you realize as well that, at least in our

         16   experience, most of the interactions that occur

         17   between staff and inmates, and many times inmates,

         18   are of an appropriate nature, or else I think we

         19   would be seeing a higher incidence of this type of

         20   behavior than you are, obviously, not only in the

         21   research that was done from BJS, but also the


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          1   survey.

          2             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  I would say, sir, that

          3   we do recognize that there are very positives that

          4   happen each day, and certainly understand the nature

          5   of the environment and culture in prisons.  It's so

          6   important that we have these hearings.  It's so

          7   important that we shed the light, ask the questions,

          8   have you respond to them, because that's the only

          9   way we can reach that perfect number that we all

         10   want to see.  So I hope you understand and recognize

         11   what we're doing is trying in every way that we can

         12   to improve our system.

         13             HARLEY LAPPIN:  We understand that.  Want

         14   to help in any way we can.

         15             CARROLL ANN ELLIS:  Appreciate it.

         16             STEVEN MCFARLAND:  Thank you very much.

         17   We will be adjourned until we reconvene a second

         18   hearing tomorrow at 9:00 o'clock in this area.  And

         19   we will focus on the Florida Department of

         20   Corrections.  Thank you very much.

         21             (Proceeding adjourned at 5:00 p.m.)


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          1                  DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

          2             I, David Corbin, a Notary Public in and
              for the District of Columbia, do hereby certify that
          3   the within named, HEARINGS, personally appeared
              before me at the time and place herein set according
          4   to law, was interrogated by counsel.

          5             I further certify that the examination was
              recorded stenographically by me and then transcribed
          6   from my stenographic notes to the within printed
              matter by means of computer-assisted transcription
          7   in a true and accurate manner.

          8             I further certify that the stipulations
              contained herein were entered into by counsel in my
          9   presence.

         10             I further certify that I am not of counsel
              to any of the parties, not an employee of counsel,
         11   nor related to any of the parties, nor in any way
              interested in the outcome of this action.
         12   
                        AS WITNESS my hand and Notarial Seal this
         13   31st day of March, 2008, at Washington, D.C.

         14   

         15   
                                       ________________________
         16                            David C. Corbin
                                       Notary Public
         17   

         18   

         19   My commission expires January 1, 2012

         20   

         21