From - Tue May 19 16:40:20 1998
Message-Id: <00001AA8@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:24 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: FW: ARIN and "non-profit things" -Forwarded -Forwarded
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:48 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: FW: ARIN and "non-profit things" -Forwarded
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>
Cc: "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: FW: ARIN and "non-profit things"
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:38:37 -0500
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----------
From:     Jim Fleming[SMTP:JimFleming@unety.net]
Sent:     Saturday, May 16, 1998 7:33 AM
To:  'arin-council@arin.net'; 'ARIN list'
Cc:  'Dave Farber'; 'John C Klensin'; 'Jon Postel'; 'Randy Bush'; =
'Steve Wolff'
Subject:  ARIN and "non-profit things"


Several people have asked what sorts of things
ARIN could be doing or could have done to make
it more "non-profit in nature". In my opinion there
are numerous things but one that stands out is
involvement in the formation of the new IANA Inc.

As people should know, I suggested that the ARIN
non-profit vehicle could be used to give the new
IANA Inc. a ride to get it started. This would have
been a helping hand to the industry. It would have
been the type of community outreach that some
may have expected from a truely non-profit. With
all of the money that ARIN is raking in, it would have
been trivial to spend some of that money on helping
to set up the new IANA Inc.

Since some of the functions that ARIN currently
handles clearly have to move to the IANA Inc. and
since Jon Postel is already on the ARIN Board it
would have saved money and time to have ARIN
help to get the IANA Inc. launched. This is apparently
something that ARIN is not interested in helping
with.

This could have been something that ARIN could
have "contributed" even if it was only for 6 months
or a year. This could have been something that ARIN
could have done to help repay the U.S. Government
and other parties for the IPv4 assets that ARIN now
controls. This could have been a "non-profit thing" that
ARIN could have done to help "advance" the interests
of the community.

See also...

http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/index.html

http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/bus-orgs.html

@@@@ http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/bl-req.html

"A business league, in general, is an association of persons having
some common business interest, the purpose of which is to promote
such common interest and not to engage in a regular business of a kind
ordinarily carried on for profit. Trade associations and professional
associations are considered to be business leagues. The business league
must be devoted to the improvement of business conditions of one or
more lines of business as distinguished from the performance of particular
services for individual persons. It must be shown that the conditions
of a particular trade or the interests of the community will be advanced."

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM





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From - Tue May 19 16:40:21 1998
Message-Id: <00001AA6@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:25 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: ASNs and the new IANA Inc. -Forwarded -Forwarded
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:46 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: ASNs and the new IANA Inc. -Forwarded
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'arin-council@arin.net'" <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'ARIN list'"
      <naipr@arin.net>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Dave Farber'"
      <farber@cis.upenn.edu>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'John C Klensin'" <klensin@mci.net>, "'Jon Postel'" <postel@ISI.EDU>,
        "'Randy Bush'" <rbush@verio.net>
Cc: "'Steve Wolff'" <swolff@cisco.com>
Subject: ASNs and the new IANA Inc.
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:12:15 -0500
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Will ASN "sales" and management be moved to
the new IANA Inc. when it is formed ?

http://www.arin.net/asnform.html

Since ASNs have nothing to do with IPv4 addresses
and since they span ARIN, APNIC, and RIPE wouldn't
they be best managed by the new IANA Inc. ?


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:22 1998
Message-Id: <00001A99@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:27 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: Who owns 12.0.0.0 ? AT&T or ARIN ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:49 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: Who owns 12.0.0.0 ? AT&T or ARIN ? -Forwarded
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Message-ID: <01BD80AD.E93F9E00@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Kamau Wanguhu'" <kamau@crl.dec.com>
Cc: "arin-council@arin.net" <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'dpz@APPLE.COM'"
      <dpz@APPLE.COM>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>,
        "jis@MIT.EDU" <jis@MIT.EDU>, "'ARIN list'" <naipr@arin.net>
Cc: "'David Wimsey'" <wimsey@rtci.com>
Subject: RE: Who owns 12.0.0.0 ? AT&T or ARIN ?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:35:05 -0500
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On Saturday, May 16, 1998 9:28 AM, Kamau Wanguhu[SMTP:kamau@crl.dec.com] =
wrote:
@Jim;
@Add to this the class B that came with NeXT 129.18/16...
@
@It still seems that the best way to get address space is still
@acquisitions. =20
@
@I hope negotiators take this into account when they are pegging a price
@on their company.
@

I have a feeling that as soon as the new IANA Inc. is formed
companies will be working hard to make sure that their IN-ADDR.ARPA
"domain names" are moved to the IANA Inc. At the moment those are
handled by ARIN. This puts companies into the hands of the private
company ARIN and they never agreed to have this happen. Since the
U.S. Government will apparently be overseeing the IANA Inc. this will
provide companies better protection of their assets.

The new IANA Inc. should be able to manage the IN-ADDR.ARPA zone
and keep it on the legacy Root Name Servers operated by the U.S.
Government. ARIN, APNIC and RIPE will only need a few entries to
handle the /8s they have managed to get from the IANA. Other for-profit
companies will be able to take their places as peers with ARIN, APNIC
and RIPE to make for a competitive IPv4 address space market.

Once this transition occurs then the route table entries will have to
be addressed. Because of the complex ways that routes can be
set up it will be impossible to tie routing to address management.
This is going to become more obvious with IPv6 and IPv8. It is going
to be an interesting world.

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:22 1998
Message-Id: <00001A9D@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:30 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Is APNIC Only One of Three ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:51 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Is APNIC Only One of Three ? -Forwarded
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" <apnic-talk@apnic.net>,
        "'arin-council@arin.net'" <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'ARIN list'"
      <naipr@arin.net>
Cc: "'Adam Todd'" <at@ah.net>, "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: Is APNIC Only One of Three ?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:10:03 -0500
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In the ad for a new "director general" the APNIC
claims to be one of only *three* organizations in
the world that coordinates resource allocation.

Is that true ?
What about the IANA (or IANA Inc.)?
What about all of the LIRs of RIPE ?
What about the companies that now are dividing up their /8s ?
What about @Home ?

@@@@@ http://www.apnic.net/jobs/dg.html
"director general=20
* IT/Communications Industry=20
* Package >US$90,000 Negotiable=20
* Location: Brisbane, Australia

The Asia Pacific Network Information Center (APNIC) co-ordinates
resource allocation for internet service providers across the Asia Pacific =
region.
It is one of only 3 organisations who perform these functions world-wide."

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


By the way...is $90,000 (U.S.) per year for Australia a good salary ?


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:23 1998
Message-Id: <00001AA5@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:30 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: How does the IANA collect money ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:52 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: How does the IANA collect money ? -Forwarded
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Message-ID: <01BD80B4.17943760@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Jon Postel'" <postel@ISI.EDU>
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>,
        "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'"
      <apnic-talk@apnic.net>,
        "'arin-council@arin.net'"
      <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Christopher Ambler'" <cambler@iodesign.com>,
        "'Don Mitchell'" <dmitchel@nsf.gov>
Cc: "'Don Heath'" <heath@isoc.org>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'ARIN list'" <naipr@arin.net>, "'Simon Higgs'" <simon@higgs.com>
Subject: How does the IANA collect money ?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:19:20 -0500
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Jon,

If the current IANA is not a "company" how can it receive $50,000 ?
Where does the money get deposited ?
Does this go to the NSF ?
Does this go to ARIN ?
Does this go to USC/ISI ?
Does it go to the ISOC ?

@@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/financial_status.htm#c3_2

"Service fees which consisted of the APNIC payment of
US $50,000 to the IANA in April, 1997;"

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:23 1998
Message-Id: <00001A9F@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:32 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Is APNIC Only One of Three ? -Forwarded
     -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:53 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Is APNIC Only One of Three ? -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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Message-ID: <01BD80B7.FF2C3660@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" <apnic-talk@apnic.net>,
        "'arin-council@arin.net'" <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'ARIN list'"
      <naipr@arin.net>,
        "'Pindar Wong'" <pindar@HK.Super.NET>
Cc: "'Adam Todd'" <at@ah.net>, "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Is APNIC Only One of Three ?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:47:17 -0500
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On Saturday, May 16, 1998 6:41 PM, Pindar Wong[SMTP:pindar@HK.Super.NET] =
wrote:
<snip>
@
@I believe that the three organisations are refering to APNIC, ARIN and =
RIPE.
@

Yes, I assumed that was the three...that was not the question...

What about the IANA (or IANA Inc.)?
What about all of the LIRs of RIPE ?
What about the companies that now are dividing up their /8s ?
What about @Home ?
What about AT&T and their 12.0.0.0 ?
     http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/html/nanog/msg02336.html


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:23 1998
Message-Id: <00001AA1@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:36 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Domain Names and IP Addresses -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:54 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Domain Names and IP Addresses -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'arin-council@arin.net'" <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'ARIN list'"
      <naipr@arin.net>
Cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" <apnic-talk@apnic.net>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: Domain Names and IP Addresses
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:11:41 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Many Internet leaders have tried to baffle government officials
by misleading them into thinking that domain names and IP
address allocations have nothing to do with each other. Over
and over this "party line" has been played out on mailing lists
whenever people want to try to end conversations they do not
like.

I have made the point several times that I think that Internet
Governance should begin from the base of TLDs via a structured
root. This distributes the control to a diverse world-wide
community. People who do not want to give up control do not
like this plan. Instead, they return to the "party line" that IP
addresses and domain names are separate.

This is hardly the case. As we have seen with RIPE
<ttp://www.ripe.net/centr/index.html> and now APNIC, the
organizations which claim to be IP addresses only, end up
in the middle of domain name issues[1]. They are able to make
policies and make them stick because they hold IP address
resource allocation as a lever.

In summary, while the leaders are telling people that IP
address resources and domain names are disjoint they are
working to set policies that impact both. I claim that they
have tried to separate the population in a divide and conquer
strategy but this has not worked. The U.S. Government has
easily been able to see that Internet Resource management
includes many things and they are intricately tied together.

Jim Fleming


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

[1] @ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/vital_stats.htm#c1

"Whether the Executive Council should make the final decision on whether
an organization requesting the xxNIC.NET domain is appropriate for
delegation to occur after which the Executive Council agreed that it was
their responsibility to make the decision;"
...
"Whether APNIC should contribute and/or support a survey of national top
level domains in the AP region, after which the decision was in the =
affirmative;"

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@



-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


--=_EDB9B43F.CFAEC2A3--

--=_EDB9B43F.CEAFC3A2--
From - Tue May 19 16:40:24 1998
Message-Id: <00001AAC@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:36 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: ARIN and APNIC Staff Sizes -Forwarded -Forwarded
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:56 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: ARIN and APNIC Staff Sizes -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
id LAA00632; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:28:44 -0500
Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail
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Message-ID: <01BD80BD.0468E740@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Kim Hubbard'" <kimh@internic.net>
Cc: "'arin-council@arin.net'" <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'ARIN list'" <naipr@arin.net>
Subject: ARIN and APNIC Staff Sizes
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:23:13 -0500
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Kym,

How was the current ARIN staff size determined ?
...it appears to be much larger than APNIC...

@@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/vital_stats.htm#c1

"In comparison with APNIC's peers, APNIC's staff to member ratio at
the end of 1997 is 36.36 to 1. This may be compared to RIPE-NCC with
approximately 900 members and 36 staff (a ratio of 25 to 1) and ARIN with
approximately 130 members and 14 staff (a ratio of 9.28 to 1). When =
comparing
hostmaster ratios, APNIC has a hostmaster to member ratio of 200 to 1,
whereas RIPE-NCC's ratio is 69.23 to 1 and ARIN's ratio is 21.66 to 1."

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:24 1998
Message-Id: <00001A9B@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:37 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Why is the APNIC in the Domain Name Business ? -Forwarded
     -Forwarded
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:57 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Why is the APNIC in the Domain Name Business ? -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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Message-ID: <01BD80BF.1CC93860@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" <apnic-talk@apnic.net>
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>, "'Adam Todd'" <at@ah.net>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Barry Raveendran Greene'" <bgreene@cisco.com>,
        "'cgomes@internic.net'" <cgomes@internic.net>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Cc: "'laina@singnet.com.sg'" <laina@singnet.com.sg>,
        "'ARIN list'"
      <naipr@arin.net>,
        "'Pindar Wong'" <pindar@HK.Super.NET>, "'Jon Postel'" <postel@ISI.EDU>,
        "'Richard J. Sexton'"
      <richard@SEXTON.COM>
Subject: Why is the APNIC in the Domain Name Business ?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:38:11 -0500
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Why is the APNIC in the business of reserving .NET domain
names and deciding who should get them and who should not ?

Isn't this domain name speculation ?

Also...what country code does "AP" stand for ? By the convention being
established below xxNIC.NET implies that AP is the country code. Has
the APNIC.NET given itself a special exception ?


@@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/resource_status.htm#c4_1

"In addition, as an attempt to promote a common naming system for national
Network Information Centers in the AP region, APNIC reserved xxNIC.NET
domain names where "xx" is the 2-letter ISO-3166 country code for =
countries
in Asia and the Pacific Rim. As a result, APNIC has the authority to =
delegates
these xxNIC.NET domains to appropriate organizations in the Asia and =
Pacific
Rim regions and this delegation authority rests with the APNIC Executive =
Council.

To date, the following xxNIC.NET domains have been delegated:

THNIC.NET
AUNIC.NET
KRNIC.NET
TWNIC.NET
JPNIC.NET
MYNIC.NET

Requests have been received in the past for TONIC.NET (Tonga),
CNNIC.NET (China), SGNIC.NET (Singapore), PHNIC.NET (Philippines),
INNIC.NET (India), IDNIC.NET (Indonesia), LKNIC.NET (Sri Lanka),
VNNIC.NET (Viet Nam) and PKNIC.NET (Pakistan), however no additional
delegations have yet occurred as the organizations in question did not =
meet
the criteria (i.e., obtain a "rough consensus" of the Internet community =
in the
country in question and/or represent the government of the country in =
question
directly) for the delegation to occur prior to the end of 1997."

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Also...why would the APNIC be deciding on the above countries
if the IANA (old or new) has already delegated a TLD to someone
in the country ?

Does this mean that the APNIC does not agree with the IANA selections
and blocks these countries from getting domain names ?


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:25 1998
Message-Id: <00001AAA@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:40 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: APNIC IPv4 Address Allocations -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:58 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: APNIC IPv4 Address Allocations -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Antitrust List'" <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'"
      <apnic-talk@apnic.net>,
        "'arin-council@arin.net'"
      <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'ARIN list'" <naipr@arin.net>
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Daniel Karrenberg'"
      <Daniel.Karrenberg@ripe.net>,
        "'David Farber'"
      <farber@cis.upenn.edu>,
        "'Hilarie Orman'"
      <ho@baskerville.CS.Arizona.EDU>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>
Cc: "'Karl Denninger'" <karl@mcs.net>, "'John C Klensin'" <klensin@mci.net>,
        "'Jon Postel'" <postel@ISI.EDU>, "'Steve Wolff'" <swolff@cisco.com>
Subject: APNIC IPv4 Address Allocations
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:00:31 -0500
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According to the APNIC Annual Report, the data base of information
is not accurate[1]. Despite this, the APNIC received an additional =
allocation
of over 16 million IPv4 addresses in April of 1997. That appears to be the
same time that the APNIC paid the IANA $50,000 in service fees. This also
appears to be at a time when the APNIC had not used the addresses it
already had.

Why does a private company like APNIC, set up in an off-shore haven
like the Seychelles, and operating out of Tokyo, with apparently no taxes
being paid to Japan[2], be allowed to obtain additional IPv4 address space
with apparently no justification and an admission of poor record keeping
while U.S. ISPs and other companies around the world are put through
the ringer for a few IPv4 addresses ?


Jim Fleming


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=

http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/resource_status.htm#c4_1

Percentage
Used
-------------------------
0%   61.x.x.x <-------- April 25, 1997
0%   169.208.x.x
0%   169.209.x.x
0%   169.210.x.x
0%   169.211.x.x
0%   169.212.x.x
0%   169.213.x.x
0%   169.214.x.x
0%   169.215.x.x
80%  202.x.x.x
80%  203.x.x.x
12%  210.x.x.x
12%  211.x.x.x

@@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/financial_status.htm#c3_2

"Service fees which consisted of the APNIC payment of
US $50,000 to the IANA in April, 1997;"

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

[1] @@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/future_directions.htm#c=
6_1

"Database Cleanup
The current registry database system is has significant amounts of
incorrect data. This is a significant issue as the registry database is =
intended
to be the location of authoritative information on which organizations =
control
which resources. It is likely that unless the registry database system is =
revised,
conflicts will arise when organizations attempt to obtain Internet =
connectivity
with historically allocated resources but which no longer have up to date
information in the registry database."

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

[2] @@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/other_activities.htm#c5=
_2

"APNIC Headquarters Relocation

Around first quarter 1997, APNIC began to investigate what would be =
required
to hire additional staff for the APNIC office in Japan. After lengthy =
consultations
with various organizations, it was established that the question of =
whether APNIC
needed to pay tax in Japan was somewhat indeterminate. Specifically, =
according
to two of three accountancy firms, APNIC should pay taxes, while the third =
indicated
exactly the opposite. After significant discussion, it was decided to =
evaluate the
costs of doing business in Japan vis-a-vis doing business in other Asia or =
Pacific
Rim locations."

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:26 1998
Message-Id: <00001AC3@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:41 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: The Registry Industry Implosion or Explosion -Forwarded
     -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:01 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: The Registry Industry Implosion or Explosion -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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Message-ID: <01BD810A.65D5AC00@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'charles mueller'" <cmueller@metrolink.net>
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>,
        "'Antitrust List'"
      <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'"
      <apnic-talk@apnic.net>,
        "'arin-council@arin.net'"
      <arin-council@arin.net>,
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      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>
Cc: "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>,
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        "'ARIN list'"
      <naipr@arin.net>,
        "'Richard J. Sexton'" <richard@SEXTON.COM>
Subject: The Registry Industry Implosion or Explosion
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 20:37:08 -0500
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Charles,

Your comments on monopolies[1] can be applied to the Registry Industry
which is currently going through its early development years. Of special
interest is the notion of *implosion*. I am not sure I agree that =
implosion
comes from size and bloat. Instead, it can come from consumer rejection
of a system that taxes them to a point where they walk away or "route
around the damage" using one of the Internet slogans.

It appears that the Registry Industry is about to go through a serious =
period
of implosion. The U.S. Government has spent a considerable amount of
time and energy studying the Registry Industry and they are now poised to
start getting it under control. Unfortunately, it appears that their =
solutions for
controlling the industry will NOT result in expanding competition but =
instead
will focus on bringing the small group of insiders into a small common
structure that will allow the U.S. Government to watch them with a large
spot-light.

This will likely make the structure implode because these insiders have =
not
been used to any scrutiny and have moved freely from one place on the
planet to another with little or no government supervision. As people try =
to
escape this government scrutiny, the small circle of insiders will get =
smaller
and consumers will have a clearer picture of what is happening under the
hot lights of that big spot-light. The combination of consumer exodus and
participant exodus makes the structure implode.

At several points in this process it appeared that the U.S. Government was
going to support helping to make the Registry Industry an *explosive" =
situation.
It should not be surprising that the industry insiders recommended against
this because this would have pulled their small power structure apart as
the big bang expansion occurred and companies moved away from the
small circle of friends that control all of the resources. It should not =
be surprising
that given a choice between an implosive solution and an explosive plan =
the
U.S. Government would opt for the implosive approach. There are several
reasons for this:

     1. The U.S. Government can control the implosive plan.
     2. The implosive approach does not frighten people.
     3. The explosive approach could be unpredictable.
     4. The explosive approach allows people off the hook.
     5. The implosive approach requires far less understanding of the
          industry on the part of the U.S. Government.
     6. The implosive approach does NOT preclude the explosive
          approach to happen at the edges.

The last 2 points are probably the most compelling reasons why the U.S. =
Government
will opt to control the Registry Industry to a point where it implodes as =
opposed to
becoming involved in explosive strategies. They do not have the time and =
energy to
really understand the Registry Industry and while they "help" the insiders =
implode
other people can work to facilitate the expansion of a new Registry =
Industry at the
edges and the U.S. Government can stand back and watch with little or no =
effort
or knowledge required.

In summary, you and others might be mistaking the apparent support of the
U.S. Government for monopolies with the U.S. Government's two pronged =
approach
to the problem. One, round up the monopolists into smaller and smaller =
cliques
and watch them carefully while, two, taking a hands-off approach to the =
people and
companies that offer explosive solutions that may catch on if the clique =
is not allowed
to expand. Unfortunately, this does not look good because it gives the =
appearance
that the U.S. Government is devoting all of its resources to the monopolist=
s. This
is no different than what happens on school yards all around the world. =
The teachers
spend their time rounding up the small number of children that misbehave =
to watch
them carefully, while the other children are left unsupervised to grow and =
prosper.
It is unfortunate that all of these systems favor the approach where =
resources are
spent on the small minority of monopolists that cause the majority of =
society to
suffer by denying them more explosive opportunities. The key to moving =
forward
is for society to understand what the U.S. Government is doing to provide =
them
freedom to provide something better. If that happens then the majority of =
resources
will be shifted to the explosive solutions which is the way it should be.

Jim Fleming

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

[1] On Saturday, May 16, 1998 3:29 PM, charles mueller[SMTP:cmueller@metrol=
ink.net] wrote:
@        A century after a gang of Robber Barons successfully monopolized =
the
@U.S. economy under the slogan, 'Monopoly Is Efficient,' we're seeing a
@reenactment under precisely the same banner.  We never learn.  Over 200
@years ago, Adam Smith was quite clear that, far from being a fount of
@efficiency, monopoly is the mother of bloat:  "Monopoly, besides, is a =
great
@enemy of good management, which can never be universally established but =
in
@consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody =
to
@have recourse to it for the sake of self-defence." =20
@
@        Bloated costs are an inevitable effect of economic monopoly and,
@with those inflated costs, monopolies have no choice but to charge
@higher-than-competitive prices, thus imposing on the public what Smith =
aptly
@characterizes as a 'private tax,' one levied precisely in the interest of
@economic INefficiency:  "It is for the most worthless of all purposes too
@that they [consumers] are taxed in this manner.  It is merely to enable =
the
@[monopoly] to support the negligence, profusion, and malversation of =
their
@own servants [managers and employees], whose disorderly conduct seldom
@allows the dividend of the company to exceed the ordinary rate of profit =
in
@trades which are altogether free, and very frequently makes it fall even =
a
@good deal short of that rate."  In time, monopolies implode, becoming so
@bloated that--even with their inflated prices--they can't earn even a
@normal, competitive profit.  U.S. Steel, IBM, GM, Xerox, Sears, the list
@goes on.
@
-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:26 1998
Message-Id: <00001AAF@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:43 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: ARIN Discussion on NANOG -Forwarded -Forwarded
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:02 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: ARIN Discussion on NANOG -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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Message-ID: <01BD8120.E271FE60@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'arin-council@arin.net'" <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'ARIN list'"
      <naipr@arin.net>
Cc: "'Antitrust List'" <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'Karl Denninger'" <karl@mcs.net>
Subject: ARIN Discussion on NANOG
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 23:18:06 -0500
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One of ARIN's target markets is the NANOG community. The NANOG
mailing list is normally reserved for network operators to discuss
network operations topics. When people discuss topics not desirable
to the Internet insiders, they are quickly attacked by the NANOG people
who claim their list has to be reserved for more important discussions.

Despite the fact that there are several ARIN lists, some which the public
can see and some which they can not, occassionally ARIN advocates
make their way to the NANOG forums to continue their marketing efforts
to sell or lease more IP addresses or services. NANOG people seem to
welcome these discussions with open arms.

One of the recent discussions starts with "ARIN allocating /20 netblocks?"
<http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/html/nanog/msg02412.html>

If you follow the discussion[1] you will see that some people recognize =
the
fact that ARIN is doing ISPs a dis-service with this new policy. They also
note that this helps to increase the revenue for ARIN. Most importantly =
the
discussion focuses on how unfair this is to small ISPs and how large
companies are immune from the extra costs. What is surprising is the
lack of knowledge on the part of some of the smaller ISPs in what is =
really
going on.

Karl Denninger, a large and experienced ISP has taken the time to describe
why the /20s are a bad idea and more importantly other approaches that =
could help
smaller ISPs and which would be fair. It is surprising that people do not =
recognize
that Karl's suggestions could help the small company get started. The ARIN
policies do not do this. What always seems to come into play are people =
that
claim they had to get put through the renumbering ringer so therefore =
everyone else
is also required to do this. There is little concern for the true costs of =
this to the
industry and the grief this causes ISPs and customers. There is also =
little
recognition that it is not necessary, except by people like Karl.
<http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/html/nanog/msg02436.html>

In my opinion, ARIN is building a "for-profit-style" business on the past =
policies
of ISP "initiations and hell-week tactics". This is like the Marine Corps =
or the Navy
Seals leaders deciding that it was best for them so it is best for all new =
recruits.
It is a shame that companies do not yet have a clear choice of vendors in =
the North
American IPv4 Address business. One thing the U.S. Government should =
consider
doing when the new IANA Inc. is formed is to immediately allow a few other =
IPv4
registries to become established to allow different service models to be =
allowed.
Not every ISP needs to join the "ARIN Corps" and to endure the policies =
which
experts agree are technically flawed, and anti-competitive and predatory =
on the
small company that is trying to get started.

Jim Fleming


=3D=3D=3D=3D


[1] ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Mark D. Nagel
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Patrick W. Gilmore
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Jeremiah Kristal=20
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Mark D. Nagel
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Alex P. Rudnev
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? James Rishaw
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Kim Hubbard=20
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Jon Lewis=20
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Jon Lewis=20
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Karl Denninger=20
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Jon Lewis=20
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Karl Denninger=20
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Jon Lewis=20
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Karl Denninger=20
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Michael Shields
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Karl Denninger=20
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Michael Shields
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Karl Denninger=20
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Brett Frankenberger=20
Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Jon Lewis=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:26 1998
Message-Id: <00001AB1@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:45 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:02 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <01BD8126.EF7B0880@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" <cwl@singnet.com.sg>
Cc: "'Antitrust List'" <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'"
      <apnic-talk@apnic.net>,
        "'arin-council@arin.net'"
      <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>
Cc: "'ARIN list'" <naipr@arin.net>
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 00:01:25 -0500
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On Sunday, May 17, 1998 7:53 AM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] =
wrote:
@
@I have a suggestion. Join them in organising the 99 seminar/workshop and
@you will know the details then. Many ISPs in the region had benefited
@tremendously from APRICOT and for about US$500 per person, that is
@knowledge for a song. I have attended the ones held in Singapore and HK.
@Great stuff....
@

You are missing the point. I am sure it is great stuff. With
99 seminars and workshops it should be able to pay for
itself. Taxes from IPv4 address allocations should not be
used to subsidize that operation. Does APRICOT plan to
pay APNIC back ?

Also, if people are "employed" by both APNIC and APRICOT
money can be transferred from APNIC to APRICOT to pay
them. This can create a false impression on the books of
APNIC because people might assume that people are paid
a token salary when they are really receiving compensation
via money taken out of APNIC and used to subsidize other
activities, like APRICOT.

Besides the money there is the influence that comes with
IPv4 address allocations. Are companies told they will get
IP allocations if they support APRICOT ? Is that why APRICOT
is a success ? Are IPv4 addresses obtained from the
U.S. Government being used to influence other activities ?

Furthermore, some of the people that have been paid to
participate in APRICOT are also influential in the U.S.
in making sure that APNIC gets IPv4 addresses. Do we
now have a situation where IPv4 addresses are sent to
APNIC where they are "sold/leased" and then the money
is transferred to APRICOT to pay for these people to fly
to the Asia/Pacific region for meetings and seminars ?

If this is the case, then IPv4 addresses are being bartered
for other goods, services, trips, etc. This is not something
U.S. Government contractors should be doing in my opinion.


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:27 1998
Message-Id: <00001AB5@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:46 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F1A5A823.BCDDB1D0"

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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:04 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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     id <01BD8128.F650B040@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:15:56 -0500
Message-ID: <01BD8128.F650B040@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" <cwl@singnet.com.sg>
Cc: "'Antitrust List'" <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'"
      <apnic-talk@apnic.net>,
        "'arin-council@arin.net'"
      <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>
Cc: "'ARIN list'" <naipr@arin.net>
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 00:15:55 -0500
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On Sunday, May 17, 1998 8:18 AM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] =
wrote:
<snip>
@
@You are missing my point. I am saying go ask them direct. You will not =
get
@any answer here.
@

Is this because you have no answers or because discussing
these matters may result in you not getting IP allocations ?


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


--=_F1A5A823.BDDCB0D1--

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From - Tue May 19 16:40:28 1998
Message-Id: <00001AB7@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:49 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents -Forwarded
     -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:06 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <01BD812B.31230F40@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" <maruyama@nic.ad.jp>
Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" <APNIC-TALK@apnic.net>,
        "arin-council@arin.net"
      <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "at@ah.net" <at@ah.net>, "bala@apic.net"
      <bala@apic.net>,
        "BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "davidc@apnic.net" <davidc@apnic.net>
Cc: "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" <ec-satou@kdd.co.jp>,
        "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp"
      <intl-wg@nic.ad.jp>,
        "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" <ip-wg@nic.ad.jp>,
        "Ira Magaziner" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM" <jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM>,
        "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" <kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp>
Cc: "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" <mo-abe@kdd.co.jp>, "naipr@arin.net"
      <naipr@arin.net>
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 00:31:53 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Sunday, May 17, 1998 9:28 AM, MARUYAMA Naomasa[SMTP:maruyama@nic.ad.jp] =
wrote:
<snip>
@
@I think APNIC were run, and is running very democratically. The
@problem here to be discussed is how we can legally implement APNIC
@activity for continuing democratic operation so far. The points I
@wrote in the previous messages are about the legal framework, not
@current operation of APNIC.
@

So, your concern is that when APNIC moves to Australia it might
not be run in a democratic way ?

What do you think about the new APNIC now being run as a "for-profit"
operation ?


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:28 1998
Message-Id: <00001ABD@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:51 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: APNIC Employees -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F6A2AF24.B8D9B5D4"

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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:07 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: APNIC Employees -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <01BD812B.C4656C80@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" <maruyama@nic.ad.jp>
Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" <APNIC-TALK@apnic.net>,
        "arin-council@arin.net"
      <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "at@ah.net" <at@ah.net>, "bala@apic.net"
      <bala@apic.net>,
        "BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "davidc@apnic.net" <davidc@apnic.net>
Cc: "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" <ec-satou@kdd.co.jp>,
        "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp"
      <intl-wg@nic.ad.jp>,
        "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" <ip-wg@nic.ad.jp>,
        "Ira Magaziner" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM" <jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM>,
        "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" <kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp>
Cc: "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" <mo-abe@kdd.co.jp>, "naipr@arin.net"
      <naipr@arin.net>
Subject: APNIC Employees
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 00:36:00 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Sunday, May 17, 1998 9:28 AM, MARUYAMA Naomasa[SMTP:maruyama@nic.ad.jp] =
wrote:
@>From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
@>Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:08:39 -0500
@
@>Your bravery to make these comments restores my faith
@>in humanity. I have had similar concerns. People will note
@>that my questions went un-answered.
@
@"Humanity"?
@

Speaking of humanity...

How do current APNIC employees report their income taxes ?

The company is based in the off-shore have of the Seychelles
but it appears to operate from borrowed space in Tokyo.
What tax jurisdiction do the APNIC employees fall under ?

It seemed clear that one of the reasons that APNIC is moving
to Australia is to avoid taxes in Japan. Are those corporate
taxes or taxes on personal income ?


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


--=_F6A2AF24.B9D8B4D5--

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From - Tue May 19 16:40:29 1998
Message-Id: <00001ABF@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:52 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Bounding APNIC's Money Flow -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F6A2AF24.BADBB7D6"

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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:08 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Bounding APNIC's Money Flow -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <01BD812F.5EE42D20@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" <maruyama@nic.ad.jp>
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>,
        "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net"
      <APNIC-TALK@apnic.net>,
        "'APPLe '" <apple@apnic.net>,
        "arin-council@arin.net" <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "at@ah.net"
      <at@ah.net>, "bala@apic.net" <bala@apic.net>
Cc: "BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "davidc@apnic.net"
      <davidc@apnic.net>,
        "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" <ec-satou@kdd.co.jp>,
        "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" <intl-wg@nic.ad.jp>,
        "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp"
      <ip-wg@nic.ad.jp>,
        "Ira Magaziner"
      <Ira Magaziner>
Cc: "jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM" <jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM>,
        "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" <kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp>,
        "'laina@singnet.com.sg'" <laina@singnet.com.sg>,
        "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" <mo-abe@kdd.co.jp>,
        "naipr@arin.net"
      <naipr@arin.net>
Subject: Bounding APNIC's Money Flow
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 01:01:48 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I hope that you agree that APNIC is leasing/selling assets
provided by the U.S. Government, namely IPv4 addresses.
That makes APNIC special in some people's minds, especially
U.S. taxpayers. For APNIC to be financially coupled to APRICOT
opens the door for money to flow from the IP address business
to other businesses. This does not seem to be a good thing.
If that is allowed to happen, then assets from the U.S. Government
are used to control the commerce in the rest of the region. In
my opinion, there should be a money barrier as shown below.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
http://www.apnic.net
=3D=3D=3D=3D money barrier =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
http://www.apricot.net/
http://www.apia.org/report.htm
http://www.getit.org/founder.htm
http://www.itu.int
http://www.iana.org


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:29 1998
Message-Id: <00001AC1@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:54 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: APNIC Funding For APRICOT -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:09 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: APNIC Funding For APRICOT -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <01BD8134.E5A32A00@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'MARUYAMA Naomasa'" <maruyama@nic.ad.jp>
Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" <APNIC-TALK@apnic.net>,
        "arin-council@arin.net"
      <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "at@ah.net" <at@ah.net>, "bala@apic.net"
      <bala@apic.net>,
        "BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "davidc@apnic.net" <davidc@apnic.net>
Cc: "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" <ec-satou@kdd.co.jp>,
        "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp"
      <intl-wg@nic.ad.jp>,
        "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" <ip-wg@nic.ad.jp>,
        "Ira Magaziner" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM" <jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM>,
        "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" <kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp>
Cc: "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" <mo-abe@kdd.co.jp>, "naipr@arin.net"
      <naipr@arin.net>
Subject: APNIC Funding For APRICOT
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 01:41:21 -0500
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According to the following...
http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/other_activities.htm#c5_1
APRICOT 1997 cost $318,030.68.

Can you provide similar information for APRICOT 1998
and also information on how much APNIC money was spent
on each person below ?


@@@@@ http://www.apricot.net/html/instructors.html
Eric Allman
Butch Anton
Robert J. Berger
Scott Bradner  <------ ARIN
David Conrad  <------ APNIC
Gene Deutsch
Barb Dijker
Paul Ferguson
Stewart Forster
Barbara Fraser
Laina Raveendran Greene <--- APIA
Geoff Huston <--------- APNIC
Hugh Irvine
Andrew Khoo
Anne Lord <---- APNIC (RIPE)
Ron Masson
Evi Nemeth
Sam Ramadan
Danny Smith
Philip Smith
Paul Vixie
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:30 1998
Message-Id: <00001ABB@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:56 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Questions for Michael Dillon of the ARIN Advisory Council
     -Forwarded -Forwarded
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:10 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Questions for Michael Dillon of the ARIN Advisory Council
     -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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Message-ID: <01BD8139.7022F4E0@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'michael@memra.com'" <michael@memra.com>
Cc: "'Antitrust List'" <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'arin-council@arin.net'"
      <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'Karl Denninger'" <karl@mcs.net>
Cc: "'Kim Hubbard'" <kimh@internic.net>, "'ARIN list'" <naipr@arin.net>
Subject: Questions for Michael Dillon of the ARIN Advisory Council
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 02:13:51 -0500
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Michael,

1. If you do not think that renumbering is that big a deal then
why did you spend so much time at Priori working the ARIN
discussions to make sure that Priori had their own address
space ?

2. Why aren't these discussions on the ARIN lists ?

3. Why aren't ALL of the ARIN mailing lists available to the public ?

4. Also, why do ARIN personnel need to attend NANOG meetings ?
Isn't the clerical job that ARIN performs pretty well understood by
NANOG members ? Why does ARIN spend money on that ?

5. Are you a member of ARIN ? According to the ARIN web site
members of the Advisory Council have to be members of ARIN.

Jim Fleming

@@@@ http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/html/nanog/msg02449.html

Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks?

To: nanog@merit.edu=20
Subject: Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks?=20
From: Michael Dillon <michael@memra.com>=20
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 23:14:46 -0700 (PDT)=20
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=3DUS-ASCII=20
In-Reply-To: <19980516213501.39690@mcs.net>=20
Organization: Memra Communications Inc.=20
Sender: owner-nanog@merit.edu=20

On Sat, 16 May 1998, Karl Denninger wrote:

> agency).  Renumbering THEM would be a job out of the depths of Hades=20
> itself; even broaching the subject would likely cost us the account.

I see. So if you tell the customer that they need to renumber, then they
tell you to stuff it and switch to a new provider who... tells them that
they must renumber out of your soon-to-be-reassigned address space.

I just don't see this as a realistic example of a situation in which a
renumbering ISP is at a severe business disadvantage. In fact I can't
remember ever seeing any such realistic example nor do I ever remember
hearing of a case in which an ISP lost a significant amount of business
because of renumbering.

--
Michael Dillon                 -               Internet & ISP Consulting
Memra Communications Inc.      -               E-mail: michael@memra.com
http://www.memra.com           -  *check out the new name & new website*

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:30 1998
Message-Id: <00001AB9@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:57 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: ARIN Elections -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:12 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: ARIN Elections -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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Message-ID: <01BD813D.5314C460@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'John Curran'" <jcurran@bbnplanet.com>
Cc: "'arin-council@arin.net'" <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Don Mitchell'"
      <dmitchel@nsf.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'ARIN list'" <naipr@arin.net>
Subject: ARIN Elections
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 02:41:41 -0500
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John,

Why are ARIN Advisory Council elections held in secret ?

Last year when you were calling people and selling them
on the ARIN plan you claimed ARIN would be open and
would serve the Internet community. Why is ARIN now
a closed organization ?

Jim Fleming

@@@@@@ http://www.arin.net/archives/arin-members.9805

From owner-arin-members  Fri May 15 21:39:56 1998
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) id =
VAA11468=20
for arin-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 21:39:56 GMT
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VAA11463=20
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with=20
SMTP id VAA11427 for <arin-members@arin.net>; Fri, 15 May 1998 21:39:19 =
GMT
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:39:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Member Services <memsvcs@arin.net>
To: arin-members@arin.net
Subject: AC Election Begins
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980515172713.10809A-100000@ops.arin.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=3DUS-ASCII
Sender: owner-arin-members@arin.net
Precedence: bulk

This is a reminder that the election for the AC position is now
underway.Candidate information is available on the members web page.
Please submit your vote between 5/15/98 and 5/31/98 via email to
member-services@arin.net or by surface or air mail to: ARIN
attn: Member Services 4506 Daly Dr. Suite 200, Chantilly, Va 20151.
You may use pgp when voting by email. See the members web page for pgp
information.
If you haven't yet signed up for the Members Web Page, please do it soon!
Go to https://members.arin.net/
Member Services Team

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:31 1998
Message-Id: <00001AB3@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:59 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: RE: RE: ARIN's View of Magaziner's DCISOC Appearance
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:13 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: RE: RE: ARIN's View of Magaziner's DCISOC Appearance
     -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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Message-ID: <01BD817D.46596240@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Mathias Koerber'" <mathias@staff.singnet.com.sg>,
        "naipr@arin.net"
      <naipr@arin.net>
Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" <apnic-talk@apnic.net>,
        "apple@apnic.net"
      <apple@apnic.net>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "tld-wg@ripe.net" <tld-wg@ripe.net>
Subject: RE: RE: RE: ARIN's View of Magaziner's DCISOC Appearance
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:19:27 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Sunday, May 17, 1998 12:32 PM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staff.singne=
t.com.sg] wrote:
@> On Sunday, May 17, 1998 11:45 AM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staff.sin=
gn
@> et.com.sg] wrote:
@> @> On Saturday, May 16, 1998 11:08 PM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staf=
f.
@> sin
@> @> gnet.com.sg] wrote:
@> @> @This is not ARINs view of his comments, but a synopsis of his
@>  remarks.
@> @> @Your subject line was misleading, but the article itself was
@>  interesting,
@> @> @so thanks for reporting it here...
@> @> @
@> @> <snip>
@> @> @> From: Member Services <memsvcs@arin.net>
@> @> @> To: arin-members@arin.net
@> @> @> Subject: Remarks by Ira Magaziner to DCISOC
@> @>=20
@> @> It was from ARIN's Member Services is that not from ARIN ?
@> @
@> @Sure, but it did not contain anything akin to their VIEW of things,
@> @only a report of what was said. No ARIN opinion was voiced in that
@>  piece!
@> @
@>=20
@> Who wrote the material ?
@
@What does the material contain? A report or an opinion.
@Whose words are reported?
@
@

Since the material is not a "transcript", similar to what
you might see from a court reporter or in a deposition
it is the "view" of the person writing it. This may not be
the way you view things in Singapore, but this is the
common view from the U.S. where a free press has been
in place for a long time.

If you do assume that the ARIN view that was reported
is equivalent to a transcript, then we have to agree to
disagree, which is probably what we should have done
long ago. I think that most people view the reporting that
came from ARIN as their view of Magaziner's presentation.

I am certain there are probably aspects which are left
out. There are probably aspects that are given more
emphasis than Magaziner intended. It is a shame that
Magaziner and all of the people involved in these matters
do not engage in mail list discussions. Then you would
see exactly what they say and you could draw your own
conclusions.

Let's face it, most of the people trying to control the
Internet resource allocation process are afraid of using
the Internet. Why...???...I'll let you decide that...

=20
-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:31 1998
Message-Id: <00001AC5@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:08:01 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: NANOG and ARIN -Forwarded -Forwarded
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:15 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: NANOG and ARIN -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'nanog@merit.edu'" <nanog@merit.edu>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: NANOG and ARIN
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:52:11 -0500
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How come all of these discussions about ARIN
are not on the ARIN mailing list(s) ? Could it be
because some of the ARIN mailing lists are not
available to the public ? Why is that...?

Or...Is it because these are really IANA discussions
and there is not a public IANA discussion list ?

Will that be one of the first things that the new IANA Inc.
does...??...(i.e. create an open discussion list)...

=3D=3D=3D

By the way...since there appears to be interest from
NANOG members in these topics....here is my 2 cents...

1. People have been suggesting for years that /19 allocations
should be easy to get and totally free of subjective decision
making. I and others have suggested that TWO signed affidavits
from upstream providers that will be providing the ISP with at
least DS1 connections should be all that is required to obtain
the allocation. If the ISP goes out of business, the registry gets
to recover a larger block that can be easily recycled. Having
many different sizes costs more in administrative costs and
requires companies like ARIN to spend more money and
therefore charge more.

2. It should be clear to everyone that the IPv4 address space
is a mess and the IPv4 core transport network will eventually
be replaced. There are a variety of strategies for how to do this.
Which protocol is used is not the major issue. The Address
Management Plan is more critical. The IPv4 plan is the result
of years of strife, there is no IPv6 plan, and the IPv8 plan is
oriented toward the ideas that some NANOG members have
expressed here about NAT and RFC 1918 10.x.x.x networks
behind proxy/firewalls. It is encouraging to see that NANOG
members are moving in that direction. It is a shame they are
being forced there because the IPv4 policies are so onerous
and biased toward large telcos, ISPs and the regional registries
like ARIN, RIPE and APNIC who are taxing everyone with
millions of dollars in fees for a very minimal service.


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:32 1998
Message-Id: <00001ACB@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:08:03 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:16 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
id LAA03762; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:08:40 -0500
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     id <01BD8183.61010E80@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:03:10 -0500
Message-ID: <01BD8183.61010E80@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" <cwl@singnet.com.sg>
Cc: "'Antitrust List'" <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'"
      <apnic-talk@apnic.net>,
        "'arin-council@arin.net'"
      <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>
Cc: "'ARIN list'" <naipr@arin.net>
Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:03:09 -0500
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On Sunday, May 17, 1998 6:59 PM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] =
wrote:
<snip>
@
@Of course i do not have an answer. It is your imaginary issue with APNIC.
@For your info, APNIC has been very efficient with IP address allocation. =
I
@have no problem getting them.=20
@

Again, you missed the point. If you speak out, you could
have a problem getting IP addresses in the future.

@You had been crying out in this list for quite some time, i do not see
@anyone coming forward to enlighten you. Either there is no issue or no =
one
@see any point in discusing. Maybe i should take a cue from the majority
@silence.
@

Another explanation is that people are concerned that if they speak
out they will not be able to obtain IP address resources that they need.
This is because IPv4 address allocations are tightly controlled by a
small group of insiders. That is going to change soon, real soon.

Then we will see how willing people are to speak out...about the past...


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:32 1998
Message-Id: <00001AC9@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:08:05 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: APNIC Members Do Not Participate...Why ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:16 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: APNIC Members Do Not Participate...Why ? -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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Message-ID: <01BD8186.35C2C6C0@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" <cwl@singnet.com.sg>
Cc: "'Antitrust List'" <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'"
      <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'"
      <apnic-talk@apnic.net>,
        "'arin-council@arin.net'"
      <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>
Cc: "'ARIN list'" <naipr@arin.net>
Subject: APNIC Members Do Not Participate...Why ?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:23:25 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Sunday, May 17, 1998 6:59 PM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] =
wrote:
<snip>
@
@You had been crying out in this list for quite some time, i do not see
@anyone coming forward to enlighten you. Either there is no issue or no =
one
@see any point in discusing. Maybe i should take a cue from the majority
@silence.
@

Another explanation is provided on the APNIC web site...

@@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/future_directions.htm#c6_1=


"Unfortunately, in the past, the membership has not been particularly =
active in
guiding APNIC, despite establishing a mailing list for discussion =
(apnic-talk@apnic.net)
and requesting input on numerous occasions."

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Why is this ?




-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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From - Tue May 19 16:40:33 1998
Message-Id: <00001AC7@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:08:06 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: NANOG and the USG Ex-Parte Rules -Forwarded -Forwarded
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-K
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:17 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: NANOG and the USG Ex-Parte Rules -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'nanog@merit.edu'" <nanog@merit.edu>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: NANOG and the USG Ex-Parte Rules
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 14:04:11 -0500
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NANOG is supported by Merit
     and Merit is supported by the NSF
          and the NSF is supported by the U.S. Government
               and the U.S. Government is supported by U.S. =
taxpayers...

This makes NANOG conversations about Internet Governance
topics subject to the Ex-Parte rules of the U.S. Government.

I will try to include the right CCs so that the NTIA's web site
can be up to date.

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/


-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM


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