1





         1    PUBLIC HEARING ON MINE RESCUE TEAMS

         2      AND MINE RESCUE TEAM EQUIPMENT

         3

         4             November 1, 2007

         5                9:00 a.m.

         6

         7

         8

         9

        10                CAPTION

        11

        12        The Mine Safety and Health

        13  Administration held a Public Hearing

        14  on their proposal for Mine Rescue

        15  TEAMS and Mine Rescue Team Equpiment

        16  on November 1, 2007 at 9:00 a.m. at

        17  the Sheraton Hotel, 2101 Richard

        18  Arrington Jr. Boulevard, Birmingham,

        19  Alabama.  The above hearing was

        20  transcribed by Susan Bell, CCR#14,

        21  Notary Public in and for the State of

        22  Alabama.

        23

                                                   2





         1              PANEL MEMBERS

         2

         3   Patricia W. Silvey, Director of the

         4  Office of Standards, Regulations, and

         5  Variances for MSHA

         6

         7   Cherie A. Hutchison, MSHA Office

         8

         9   Matthew C. Ward, Attorney with the

        10  Office of the Solicitor

        11

        12   Michael G. Kalich, Office of Coal

        13  Mine Safety & Health and Team Leader

        14  for this project

        15

        16   Dr. Jeffrey H. Kravitz, MSHA

        17  Technical Support Center in

        18  Pittsburgh

        19

        20   Phuc T. Phan, Economist at MSHA

        21

        22   William (Bill) Wilson, Metal

        23  Non-Metal Mines Health & Safety

                                                   3





         1               PROCEEDING

         2

         3            MS. SILVEY:  Good morning.

         4  My name is Patricia W. Silvey.  I am

         5  the Director of the Mine Safety and

         6  Health Administration's Office of

         7  Standards, Regulations and Variances.

         8  I will be the moderator of this

         9  public hearing on the MSHA's proposal

        10  for Mine Rescue TEAMS.

        11           On behalf of Richard E.

        12  Stickler, Assistant Secretary of

        13  Labor for Mine Safety and Health, I

        14  want to welcome all of you here

        15  today.

        16           The MSHA members of the panel

        17  who are principally responsible for

        18  drafting the proposal -- and I might

        19  add, before I start introducing them,

        20  that some of the members of the panel

        21  have many years of practical mine

        22  experience doing Mine Rescue TEAMS

        23  work.

                                                   4





         1           That was particularly

         2  important as the Agency started out

         3  to draft a regulation dealing with

         4  Mine Rescue TEAMS.  So I just want to

         5  make sure that people are aware of

         6  that.

         7           To my left is Michael Kalich,

         8  and he is with the Office of Coal

         9  Mine Health and Safety.  To his left

        10  is William (Bill) Wilson with the

        11  Office of Metal Non-Metal Mines

        12  Health and Safety.  To his left is

        13  Jeffrey Kravitz, who is with the

        14  Office of Technical Support in

        15  Pittsburgh Center.

        16           To my right, is Cheri

        17  Hutchison, who is in my office.  To

        18  her right, is Matt Ward, who is our

        19  lawyer on the project with the Office

        20  of the Solicitor.  To his right, is

        21  Phuc Phan, who is an Economist in my

        22  office.

        23           Before we start the hearing

                                                   5





         1  this morning, I would like it if you

         2  would join me in a moment of silence

         3  in memory of the miners and rescuers

         4  who have lost their lives in mine

         5  accidents; particularly, the recent

         6  tragedy at Crandall Canyon.  So, if

         7  you would, join me in a moment of

         8  silence.

         9           (A moment of silence was

        10  observed.)

        11           MS. SILVEY:  Thank you.

        12           This is the last of four

        13  public hearings on this proposal.  As

        14  many of you know, we held the first

        15  hearing in Salt Lake City, Utah on

        16  October 23rd; the second hearing in

        17  Lexington on October 25th; the third

        18  one this past Tuesday in Charleston;

        19  today's hearing is the last and final

        20  hearing.

        21           We will be holding a public

        22  hearing on the Mine Rescue Team

        23  Equipment proposal.  It says "this

                                                   6





         1  afternoon;" but, as soon as I

         2  conclude this hearing, I will convene

         3  the Mine Rescue Team Equipment Public

         4  Hearing in this same room.

         5  Obviously, we are holding the two

         6  public hearings on the same day so

         7  that persons interested in both

         8  hearings can attend.

         9           The Mine Rescue TEAMS

        10  proposal applies only to underground

        11  coal mines.  We have copies of the

        12  "Federal Register" that contains the

        13  proposal on the table with the

        14  attendance sheets.

        15           The comment period for

        16  proposal ends on November 9th.  MSHA

        17  must receive your comments by

        18  midnight Eastern Standard Time

        19  November 9th.  This is

        20  significantly -- this is the first

        21  time that we have announced a time

        22  zone in the "Federal Register" for

        23  receipt of comments.  To avoid any

                                                   7





         1  confusion and for clarity, we want to

         2  let everybody know that when we say

         3  "November 9th," that means midnight

         4  Eastern Standard Time.

         5           As of October 30th, we have

         6  received three comments in the

         7  proposal, and that's not unusual

         8  because most people wait until the

         9  last minute to put in their written

        10  comments.

        11           You can view the comments on

        12  MSHA's website, at www.msha.gov on

        13  the Rules and Regulations.

        14           The proposal would implement

        15  the provisions of Section 4 of the

        16  Mine Improvement and New Emergency

        17  Response (MINER) Act of 2006, which

        18  strengthens training requirements and

        19  addresses composition, availability,

        20  and certification requirements for

        21  coal mine rescue teams.

        22           The purpose of these hearings

        23  is to receive information from the

                                                   8





         1  public that will help us evaluate the

         2  requirements in the proposal and

         3  produce a final rule that will

         4  improve overall mine rescue service,

         5  mine emergency response time, mine

         6  rescue team effectiveness, and the

         7  quality of mine rescue team training.

         8           The proposal discusses the

         9  provisions in the rule and includes a

        10  number of specific requests for

        11  information.  As you address the

        12  provisions, either in your testimony

        13  here today or in written comments,

        14  please be as specific as possible.

        15           I can't underscore that

        16  enough.  You will hear me saying that

        17  over and over.  Be as specific as

        18  possible about how the changes would

        19  affect the safety and health of

        20  miners and mine rescue team members.

        21           MSHA also requests detailed

        22  information and data on costs and

        23  feasibility of implementing the

                                                   9





         1  provisions.

         2           I will now reiterate the

         3  specific requests for information

         4  that are in the preamble to the

         5  proposal.

         6           MSHA requests comments on the

         7  proposed reorganization of 30 CFR

         8  part 49 and on the approach taken.

         9  The Agency requests comments on the

        10  designation of the existing standards

        11  as subpart A for underground metal

        12  and nonmetal mines and the creation

        13  of a new, separate subpart B

        14  containing both the existing

        15  standards and the proposed new MINER

        16  Act provisions for underground coal

        17  mines.

        18           Expect as provided in the

        19  MINER Act -- and I will underscore

        20  this, too -- MSHA did not propose

        21  changes to the existing standards.

        22           MSHA is proposing that team

        23  members of State-sponsored teams who

                                                  10





         1  are full-time State employees may

         2  substitute their regular job

         3  experience for 50 percent of the

         4  training requirements.  MSHA requests

         5  comments regarding the types of State

         6  relationships with teams and team

         7  members that will qualify the team

         8  members as employees and the team as

         9  "State sponsored."

        10           The Agency is proposing that

        11  mine rescue teams be available at the

        12  mine within one hour from the mine

        13  rescue station.  That, of course, is

        14  in accordance with the MINER Act.

        15           MSHA solicits comments on

        16  whether some existing stations may

        17  need to be moved to meet this

        18  requirement.

        19           To assist in developing our

        20  regulatory economic analysis, the

        21  Agency would like to know how many

        22  additional mine rescue stations would

        23  be needed to comply with the new

                                                  11





         1  requirement.  Where would the new

         2  rescue stations be located?  Do any

         3  stations have to be moved?

         4           The Agency also solicits

         5  comments on whether mine operators,

         6  State agencies, or other entities

         7  will encounter any difficulties in

         8  meeting this requirement.  MSHA asks

         9  that the commenter include specific

        10  feasibility information; such as,

        11  cost or technical capability, in

        12  support of their position.

        13           MSHA requests comments on the

        14  proposed 64-hour training

        15  requirement.  Specifically, whether

        16  the proposed hours of training should

        17  be increased or decreased in the

        18  final rule.

        19           The existing annual training

        20  requirement, as you know, is 40

        21  hours.  The commenter should address

        22  the rationale for any amount of

        23  training, type of training, the

                                                  12





         1  number of hours of training that

         2  should be required for specific

         3  activities, and the impact of such a

         4  requirement on the mining industry's

         5  ability to form additional mine

         6  rescue teams or retain current mine

         7  rescue team members.

         8           The proposal requires mine

         9  rescue teams to train at each mine

        10  serviced by the team.  Under the

        11  MINER Act, teams serving mines with

        12  36 or fewer employees -- and the

        13  MINER Act refers to these mines as

        14  small mines -- must train at each

        15  covered mine semi-annually.

        16           Mine-site teams and State-

        17  sponsored teams, which are required

        18  to train at large mines annually,

        19  would have to train at small mines

        20  semi- annually if they service a

        21  small mine.

        22           Contract mine rescue teams

        23  would have to train quarterly at each

                                                  13





         1  of the large mines they service.

         2  Composite teams would have to train

         3  semi-annually at each of the large

         4  mines they service.

         5           MSHA invites comments

         6  regarding the training.  MSHA also

         7  requests comments on whether the

         8  training at the mine service needs to

         9  be conducted underground.

        10           The Agency solicits comments

        11  regarding the types of teams that are

        12  available to mines having 36 or fewer

        13  employees and whether these mines

        14  should be able to use other types of

        15  teams; such as, the composite team,

        16  consisting of one team member from

        17  each covered mine rather than two

        18  team members from each covered mine

        19  as required by the MINER Act.

        20           Would additional mine rescue

        21  teams be needed to comply with the

        22  new requirement for teams to train at

        23  each covered mine?  What would be the

                                                  14





         1  make-up and composition of new teams?

         2           The commenter should explain

         3  any suggested alternatives;

         4  including, supporting documentation

         5  and data.

         6           As I stated at the outset --

         7  you heard me say you'll probably hear

         8  this a lot this morning -- please be

         9  as specific as possible regarding any

        10  suggested alternatives that you might

        11  have.  If you have information on

        12  your particular situation, as far as

        13  the impact of the proposal, please be

        14  as specific as possible regarding the

        15  impact on your particular situation.

        16           The proposal requires

        17  underground coal mine operators to

        18  provide certified mine rescue teams

        19  and includes criteria for certifying

        20  a mine rescue team.

        21           The proposal would require

        22  each mine operator to submit an

        23  annual statement to the District

                                                  15





         1  Manager certifying the qualification

         2  of the Mine's mine rescue teams.  To

         3  make this certification less

         4  burdensome, the Agency developed a

         5  form that can be filed on line.

         6           MSHA welcomes any suggestions

         7  on the form and requests comments and

         8  recommendations for other

         9  alternatives for certification of

        10  mine rescue teams.

        11           The proposal requires mine

        12  rescue teams to participate in two

        13  local mine rescue contests each year.

        14  MSHA developed criteria for local

        15  mine rescue contests and requests

        16  comments on the proposed criteria.

        17           The Agency solicits comments

        18  on whether there should be a minimum

        19  amount of annual training prescribed

        20  for contest judges.  The Agency is

        21  considering allowing an attendance at

        22  training on contest rules and

        23  interpretations to satisfy the

                                                  16





         1  requirement for annual training for

         2  judges.

         3           MSHA requests comments on

         4  this approach or whether some other

         5  training is more appropriate.

         6           The proposal would allow

         7  other training that provides an

         8  equivalent realistic simulation

         9  exercise; such as, Mine Emergency

        10  Response Development, (MERD) drills,

        11  to substitute for participation in a

        12  local mine rescue contest.  MSHA

        13  requests comments on this

        14  alternative.

        15           MSHA has prepared a

        16  Preliminary Regulatory Economic

        17  Analysis for the proposal, which

        18  contains estimated supporting data on

        19  costs and benefits.  MSHA estimated

        20  that the proposal would result in 28

        21  additional mine rescue stations, 56

        22  additional mine rescue teams, and no

        23  change in the level of service

                                                  17





         1  provided by State-sponsored teams and

         2  stations.

         3           MSHA estimated a total annual

         4  compliance cost of 3.1 million

         5  dollars.  MSHA requests comments on

         6  all of the assumptions and data used

         7  in deriving the cost estimates.

         8           This hearing will be

         9  conducted in an informal manner, and

        10  formal rules of evidence will not

        11  apply.  The panel may ask questions

        12  of the witnesses.  The witnesses may

        13  ask questions of the panel.  However,

        14  cross-examination, as you know --

        15  many of you -- is not allowed.

        16           MSHA will make a transcript

        17  of the hearing and post it on the

        18  Agency's website within one or two

        19  weeks after the conclusion of this

        20  hearing.

        21           If you wish to present

        22  written statements or information

        23  today, please clearly identify your

                                                  18





         1  material and give it to one of the

         2  panel members.

         3           You may also submit comments

         4  following this public hearing by any

         5  of the methods listed in the "Federal

         6  Register Notice."  To be considered,

         7  as I said earlier, the Agency must

         8  receive your comments by November

         9  9th.

        10           We ask everyone in attendance

        11  this morning to sign the attendance

        12  sheet.  If you plan to testify, we

        13  ask that you sign the speakers list.

        14           If you have a hard copy or an

        15  electronic version of your

        16  presentation, please provide it to

        17  the court reporter.

        18           We will now hear from those

        19  who signed up to speak.  If you

        20  would, please begin by clearly

        21  stating your name and spelling it for

        22  the reporter so that the reporter --

        23  we have an accurate record.

                                                  19





         1           Our first speaker today is --

         2  I'm trying to remember because I

         3  don't see the list.  I think it's Ken

         4  Russell.  It's Ken Russell from

         5  Bevill State Community College,

         6  Sumiton campus.

         7           MR. RUSSELL:  My name is Ken

         8  Russell; K-e-n, R-u-s-s-e-l-l.

         9           On behalf of Bevill State

        10  Community College and our President,

        11  Neil Morrison, we thank you for this

        12  opportunity to speak today.

        13           We applaud the efforts of the

        14  Mine Safety and Health Administration

        15  on improving the safety of mines and

        16  mining, and especially Section 4 of

        17  the MINER Act.

        18           Any time there can be an

        19  improvement on mine emergency

        20  response time, improved team

        21  effectiveness, and increased quantity

        22  and quality of mine rescue team

        23  training, we should seize that

                                                  20





         1  moment.  However, we do wish that

         2  more input had been sought from

         3  institutions such as ours and from

         4  industry before the final passage of

         5  the MINER Act.

         6           We are convinced a better and

         7  more workable law could have resulted

         8  from a broader spectrum of input from

         9  individuals, the mine rescue

        10  community nationwide, institutions,

        11  and coal companies with actual

        12  experience in emergency mine rescue

        13  situations.

        14           Bevill State has housed and

        15  been responsible for equipping and

        16  training the two State of Alabama

        17  mine rescue teams for over 25 years.

        18  One of our teams is made up entirely

        19  of state mine inspectors, and the

        20  other is made up of volunteers from

        21  several of the mines which we are

        22  responsible for covering.  A

        23  composite team.

                                                  21





         1           During the intervening 25

         2  years, our teams have participated in

         3  several fire fighting, rescue, and

         4  recovery operations.  We know mine

         5  rescue.  This district knows mine

         6  rescue.

         7           We were never afforded an

         8  opportunity to speak, other than the

         9  hearings.  No one asked for any

        10  information.  No one solicited any

        11  comments or a panel.  We feel like

        12  this district and other districts

        13  across the nation in the mine rescue

        14  community know mine rescue.

        15           If you'll refer to Part

        16  49.11, the chart on page 51-332, the

        17  note at the bottom of the chart --

        18  I'll begin with that -- it states:

        19  "Team members of State-sponsored

        20  teams who are full-time State

        21  employees whose primary job duties

        22  include inspecting underground mines

        23  for compliance with State safety laws

                                                  22





         1  or training mine rescue teams or

         2  conducting mine safety training or

         3  other similar duties that would

         4  enhance their mine rescue knowledge

         5  may substitute for regular job

         6  experience or 50 percent of the

         7  training requirements for non-State

         8  employee mine rescue team members."

         9           We believe that the proposed

        10  requirement allowing the 50 percent

        11  reduction in training requirements

        12  for teams made up of State inspectors

        13  should definitely apply to the mine-

        14  site portion of the training, since

        15  these individuals will already

        16  possess extensive knowledge of these

        17  locations; but we do not believe the

        18  other training requirements should be

        19  halved.

        20           The time spent in wearing an

        21  apparatus is essential for conditions

        22  for an actual situation and should

        23  not be reduced.

                                                  23





         1           Pertaining to 49.12(f), the

         2  one-hour travel time, I would like to

         3  read to you a letter that I had to

         4  send out to a mine superintendent of

         5  a mine that we provide coverage for.

         6  I will leave the name of the mine

         7  out.  It's addressed to the mine

         8  superintendent.

         9           "Due to the new MINER Act

        10  requirements for underground coal

        11  mine operators and mine rescue teams,

        12  Bevill State Community College,

        13  representing the State of Alabama,

        14  will no longer be able to provide

        15  mine rescue coverage for blank mining

        16  effective December 15th, 2007.  The

        17  coverage cannot be extended for

        18  reasons stated in 30 CFR Part

        19  49-12(f).  No mine served by a mine

        20  rescue team shall be located more

        21  than one-hour ground travel time from

        22  the mine rescue station with which

        23  the rescue team is associated.  A

                                                  24





         1  satellite station is not a feasible

         2  option because of the cost to

         3  maintain two rescue stations, and any

         4  moves further east from its current

         5  location would place the current

         6  station outside of the one-hour

         7  ground travel time for other mines

         8  within the mine rescue coverage

         9  area."

        10           There is a new mine that will

        11  be starting up within three miles of

        12  this same location.  We traveled this

        13  route from the station to this

        14  particular mine twice.  One time, it

        15  was an hour and 16 minute.  One time,

        16  it was an hour and 13 minutes.

        17           So, with that said, we would

        18  like to comment on that reduction in

        19  allotted ground travel time on

        20  station to covered mines.  Why was

        21  this time halved?  What evidence

        22  exists that two hours is not a

        23  workable time?  What recent situation

                                                  25





         1  has been exacerbated by team arrival

         2  within two hours?

         3           Again, we in the mine rescue

         4  community also know that if teams

         5  were on site within one hour, would

         6  the MSHA Control Rescue Fire Fighting

         7  Recovery Command Center be

         8  sufficiently functional or staffed to

         9  permit team entry?

        10           We understand the desire to

        11  establish more teams and more

        12  stations; but, considering the

        13  additional cost of the difficulty of

        14  maintaining remote stations, is it

        15  not just as likely that some

        16  organizations might decide to simply

        17  decline to support remote mines?

        18           It is our belief these well-

        19  intentioned regulations may actually

        20  reduce the number of teams, stations,

        21  and mines.  It is highly possible

        22  that some states will decide to

        23  eliminate their state teams rather

                                                  26





         1  than face increased costs and drastic

         2  increases in the amount of time away

         3  from other duties their employees

         4  would face.

         5           At the last sentence of this

         6  letter that I wrote, I did make this

         7  statement.  "I will petition the

         8  District Manager in MSHA District 11

         9  to grant us a waiver so that we may

        10  continue the coverage for your mine."

        11           We are asking that the MSHA

        12  District Manager be granted the

        13  authority to grant waivers on the

        14  one-hour ground travel time from mine

        15  rescue stations in certain given

        16  situations.

        17           Part 48-18, concerning

        18  training for mine rescue teams.  This

        19  is a question.  If personnel are

        20  available with extensive mine rescue

        21  experience and knowledge who have

        22  passed the required physical

        23  examination and have maintained the

                                                  27





         1  necessary apparatus time but have not

         2  participated in competition, not a

         3  part of the team members, are these

         4  people going to be denied the

         5  opportunity to contribute in an

         6  actual situation?

         7           By that, I mean, there are

         8  people who have experience and

         9  expertise.  I have over 27 years of

        10  experience in mine rescue.  I have

        11  been in every situation, I guess,

        12  that is out there.  Would I be denied

        13  entry by an overzealous MSHA

        14  inspector because I have not competed

        15  in two competitions?

        16           There are certain people who

        17  have skills; such as, paramedics,

        18  ventilation engineers, people with

        19  electrical backgrounds and electrical

        20  engineering backgrounds.  If they

        21  keep their allotted time of mine

        22  rescue training up and meet the

        23  requirements of the physical, would

                                                  28





         1  they be excluded from the entrance of

         2  a mine in a disaster?

         3           We feel there are individuals

         4  with expertise at all locations that

         5  could be utilized that are not

         6  current team members.

         7           Part 49-20, requirements for

         8  all coal mines and requirements for

         9  composite teams.  I would like to

        10  present a scenario using our current

        11  situation as a starting point.

        12           I want you to remember I have

        13  one fully staffed state inspector

        14  team of eight.  I have one fully

        15  staffed composite team of eight.

        16  They are all made up of experienced

        17  team members.  They have been where

        18  the wars are fought.

        19           Suppose we are responsible

        20  for the coverage of 15 mines?  We are

        21  not in this state yet.  The State of

        22  Kentucky does.  The State of West

        23  Virginia does.  Probably more than

                                                  29





         1  that.

         2           The new regulations require

         3  that we add two more team members

         4  from the other mines being covered.

         5  If I covered 15 mines, that would be

         6  30 people, which could bring our team

         7  totals as it stands right now, as a

         8  composite team and an inspector team,

         9  to a total of 38.

        10           Will we have to release our

        11  highly experienced team members to

        12  make room for those other two team

        13  members representing each mine?  Does

        14  this also mean that we would have to

        15  maintain 38 apparatus?

        16           We feel that we need to visit

        17  the mines twice a year and meeting

        18  with a liaison, one or two people at

        19  each mine site that could show us the

        20  ventilation, show the roof control

        21  plan, show us the escapeways, all the

        22  pertinent information about

        23  transportation, all of those things.

                                                  30





         1  It is not necessary to displace team

         2  members as we have them now.

         3           Who will pay for these

         4  people?  Who will pay for their time?

         5  Do you see how unworkable a situation

         6  some of these new requirements could

         7  create?

         8           It's been our experience --

         9  again, the mine rescue community, if

        10  you check nationwide, during several

        11  actual situations -- that there are

        12  personnel out there available at the

        13  mine that provide knowledge and could

        14  be a liaison person to the mine

        15  rescue teams during these events.

        16           That's all I have.

        17           MS. SILVEY:  Thank you.

        18           First of all, Mr. Russell,

        19  let me say for everybody here that we

        20  at MSHA recognize the long and

        21  significant and necessary service and

        22  the tradition of mine rescue teams in

        23  this country; and we appreciate that.

                                                  31





         1  At every hearing that I have had so

         2  far, at some point during the

         3  hearing, I have said words to that

         4  effect.

         5           So, by proposing these

         6  regulations -- and I will say this

         7  now -- and I'm going to repeat

         8  something that I said at the first

         9  hearing we had, the Salt Lake City

        10  hearing.  We did not intend to take

        11  any action that would negatively

        12  impact mine rescue team service or

        13  mine rescue team members or mine

        14  rescue teams; but -- and I know you

        15  understand that.

        16           Obviously, Alabama has it's

        17  congressmen in Congress and it's two

        18  senators.  You understand that the

        19  Congress passed and the President

        20  signed the MINER Act.

        21           MSHA had to do what it could

        22  to try to give meaning to the MINER

        23  Act and regulations and do the best

                                                  32





         1  job we could in proposing the

         2  regulations and yet allowing the

         3  public, and particularly the mine

         4  rescue team community -- see, that's

         5  the community personally affected by

         6  these regulations -- to allow the

         7  public to have input into them.

         8           So we tried to find a way

         9  where we could give meaning to the

        10  MINER Act, what Congress did and the

        11  President signed; but, at the same

        12  time, we tried to effectuate a

        13  situation where we would allow that

        14  long wonderful and necessary

        15  tradition of mine rescue service to

        16  go on.

        17           That's where we are.  That's

        18  why we're here in Alabama today.  So

        19  I just want to say that at the

        20  outset.  We appreciate what you're

        21  doing and what your college is doing

        22  and what everybody in this room who

        23  is involved in mine rescue is doing.

                                                  33





         1           We never -- and another

         2  thing.  We never want the occasion to

         3  arise where we need mine rescue

         4  teams, but sometimes we do.

         5  Sometimes the occasion is like it was

         6  at Crandall Canyon or unfortunately

         7  like it was here in Alabama at Jim

         8  Walters a few years ago.

         9           Then, sometimes, it's not so

        10  disastrous a situation.  It may be a

        11  lesser catastrophic accident, but

        12  still the mine rescue team is just as

        13  necessary in all those situations.

        14           So, before I go further, I

        15  did not want to leave this hearing

        16  without make that statement on behalf

        17  of the panel here, and on behalf of

        18  MSHA, quite honestly.

        19           We appreciate your comments,

        20  too.  I have a few things that I

        21  would like to ask you about what you

        22  said, and maybe the panel members

        23  might have a few questions.

                                                  34





         1           With respect to the State of

         2  Alabama, I'm glad to hear the

         3  information that you said about the

         4  State of Alabama teams.  With respect

         5  to the State of Alabama's two teams,

         6  you all are the designated primary

         7  team coverage for how many mines in

         8  Alabama?

         9           MR. RUSSELL:  Right now, we

        10  cover five mines.  We are the primary

        11  and the backup on three of those

        12  mines.

        13           MS. SILVEY:  Okay.

        14           MR. RUSSELL:  And we are the

        15  backup on the other two.

        16           MS. SILVEY:  Okay.  You said

        17  that one is all state inspectors, and

        18  the second one is like a composite

        19  team?

        20           MR. RUSSELL:  Yes.  They are

        21  made up of -- it's not exactly two

        22  from each mine.  They're made up from

        23  those particular mines; but that's

                                                  35





         1  not all that we cover, though.

         2           MS. SILVEY:  Let me ask you

         3  another thing.  In terms of the ones

         4  that you cover, as to the MINER Act

         5  -- and I said that in my opening

         6  statement about the designation now

         7  of the 36 or fewer for the small

         8  mines and 37 or greater for the large

         9  mines.

        10           Are all of yours in one

        11  category?

        12           MR. RUSSELL:  No.  We have

        13  one small mine.

        14           MS. SILVEY:  Under the MINER

        15  Act categorization?

        16           MS. RUSSELL:  Yes, ma'am.

        17           MS. SILVEY:  Okay.  The

        18  letter that you provided -- and

        19  that's very useful.  That's the kind

        20  of information that we need from

        21  everybody here.

        22           Even if you don't want to

        23  testify today, if you don't want to

                                                  36





         1  come forward, if you have the same

         2  kind of impact that Mr. Russell had,

         3  if you would, let us know.  Send it

         4  to us before November the 9th before

         5  the record closes.

         6           That is the specific kind of

         7  information that we need to direct us

         8  if we have to do something

         9  differently.  If we have to do

        10  something differently, we need to

        11  know the impact, the specific impact.

        12           That's the only kind of

        13  information that I can take forward

        14  to say that this has impacted these

        15  people.  This is going to cause a

        16  change.  That's the kind of

        17  information that we need.

        18           MR. RUSSELL:  Patricia, could

        19  I add some to that?

        20           MS. SILVEY:  Yes.

        21           MR. RUSSELL:  There is a new

        22  mine that is starting up very near

        23  there.  I'm sure it will start out as

                                                  37





         1  a small mine, less than 36.  They

         2  will still need the coverage.

         3           MS. SILVEY:  Right.

         4           MR. RUSSELL:  Like I said, we

         5  were an hour and 13 minutes one way,

         6  and coming back it was an hour and 16

         7  minutes.  It could be more at peak

         8  traffic time.  I'm just telling you

         9  that's the time frame.

        10           Would we still respond?  Yes,

        11  we would still respond, of course;

        12  but we would not be listed as their

        13  primary and secondary teams.  They

        14  would have to do something under the

        15  MINER Act.

        16           MS. SILVEY:  Okay.  Well, I'm

        17  getting to that.  That's a good --

        18  that's the next thing I was getting

        19  to.

        20           For the mine, you read from

        21  the letter, you are no longer able to

        22  provide coverage.  I've got several

        23  questions.  Was that the only -- is

                                                  38





         1  that the only mine that you've had to

         2  send a letter that you would have to

         3  terminate your coverage, as of

         4  December whatever date?

         5           MR. RUSSELL:  We technically,

         6  actually, thought there may have been

         7  two.  We exceeded the speed limits.

         8  So I would have been given several

         9  tickets.

        10           I have approached an MSHA

        11  supervisor, and he's willing to do

        12  this, to ride in a patrol car with us

        13  if we need to, or whatever, to try

        14  and beat the hour and 13 minutes.

        15  That's a technicality that's in the

        16  MINER Act that we could get around.

        17  It doesn't say -- whatever.

        18           I can assure you our mine

        19  rescue truck will not make it in an

        20  hour and 13 minutes to that location;

        21  but, us in a car or us in a patrol

        22  car, we could get police escorts any

        23  time.  We could have it on all the

                                                  39





         1  plans, if necessary.  We can do all

         2  these things, and we're willing to do

         3  that.

         4           We thought there may be one

         5  other mine.  We made it under that

         6  time limit.  Right now, there's just

         7  one.  Again, there's another mine

         8  starting up there.

         9           I don't want to discourage --

        10  part of my job -- we manage grants.

        11  I know you're familiar with the wired

        12  initiative and all these work force

        13  developments.

        14           MS. SILVEY:  Yes, I am.

        15           MR. RUSSELL:  That's what

        16  we're all about.  I don't think --

        17  you have one Governmental Agency

        18  saying "Put people to work" --

        19           MS. SILVEY:  Right.

        20           MR. RUSSELL:  -- and then we

        21  are putting them out of work in

        22  another one.

        23           MS. SILVEY:  No.  You're

                                                  40





         1  exactly right.  I just read the

         2  Assistant Secretary for Employment

         3  Training Administration is presenting

         4  testimony on the state of workers in

         5  the energy sector, and that includes

         6  mines.

         7           So you are exactly right.

         8  She was talking about the wired

         9  initiative.  So I understand what

        10  you're saying.  You're right.

        11           So the mine, though, that you

        12  didn't call the name on that you

        13  terminated -- that you were telling

        14  them, informing them, what size was

        15  that mine?

        16           MR. RUSSELL:  They have in

        17  the neighborhood of, I think, about

        18  50 to 53 employees.

        19           MS. SILVEY:  Now, what will

        20  that mine do?

        21           MR. RUSSELL:  That is the

        22  question.

        23           MS. SILVEY:  I want everybody

                                                  41





         1  -- all these questions I'm asking

         2  Mr. Russell, if people are similarly

         3  situated and have like situations, I

         4  would really be most appreciative, if

         5  you are impacted, if you would

         6  provide specifics about some of the

         7  same things he's telling us now.

         8           When you say that, what

         9  options do they have, though?

        10           MR. RUSSELL:  The options

        11  they have are, one, going out of

        12  business.

        13           MS. SPIVEY:  But that doesn't

        14  seem to be a viable.

        15           MR. RUSSELL:  It could be if

        16  they're struggling now -- and I don't

        17  know what their status is, but small

        18  mines work on not quite the budgets

        19  that larger mines do.  If they're

        20  struggling to put 12 apparatus and 12

        21  team members, they don't have the

        22  personnel to do that, again, we could

        23  not -- we ourselves cannot afford a

                                                  42





         1  satellite station.

         2           MS. SPIVEY:  When you say you

         3  can't afford a satellite station, you

         4  mean setting up --

         5           MR. RUSSELL:  The State of

         6  Alabama can't purchase 12 units.  I

         7  mean, it's -- a replica of our

         8  station that we have now is just

         9  unfeasible, and maintaining that

        10  station on an annual basis just

        11  couldn't be done.

        12           MS. SILVEY:  Okay.

        13           MR. RUSSELL:  So the options

        14  they have -- I'm asking you what

        15  options are y'all giving them?  When

        16  I'm an hour and 13 minutes away with

        17  a police escort, we could probably

        18  cut some of that off; but it will

        19  still be more than an hour.

        20           Again, one thing I want you

        21  to understand is, in every situation

        22  requiring mine emergency, there was

        23  really nothing wrong with the

                                                  43





         1  two-hour law.  I know we have a law

         2  we have to work with now.

         3           MS. SILVEY:  I understand.

         4           MR. RUSSELL:  Even just --

         5  this law has done nothing to improve

         6  response time.  It has done nothing

         7  to improve response time.

         8           I can assure you that in West

         9  Virginia, Kentucky, Virginia,

        10  Pennsylvania, and Alabama we are

        11  aware of that.  It has done nothing

        12  to improve response time.

        13           It's hurting these small

        14  operations that can't afford these

        15  things, and it would discourage

        16  entrepreneurs from investing in coal

        17  mines or starting new developments.

        18           MS. SILVEY:  I hear you.

        19           Now, when you went on to talk

        20  about asking the District Manager

        21  here in District 11 for a waiver --

        22           MR. RUSSELL:  I have not -- I

        23  said I would petition.  I have not

                                                  44





         1  petitioned yet.

         2           MS. SILVEY:  Yeah, I

         3  understand.

         4           MR. RUSSELL:  But I will.

         5           MS. SILVEY:  What I was going

         6  to say is -- and I want everybody

         7  else to think about this -- are you

         8  -- how can I say this?  If you could,

         9  please provide specific criteria

        10  like; list, if you can, one criteria

        11  or more than one criteria under what

        12  conditions that you think a waiver

        13  ought to be granted.

        14           MR. RUSSELL:  Yes, ma'am.  I

        15  will add those comments and get those

        16  in by November 9th.

        17           MS. SILVEY:  Yes.  Everybody

        18  else in here, too.  If you have a

        19  similar situation, you do that, too.

        20  That would be helpful.

        21           The other thing I want to say

        22  is that you talked about maybe not

        23  every member of the team being able

                                                  45





         1  to participate in local contests.

         2           If you all recall, from the

         3  opening statement, I did say that we

         4  included in the proposal some

         5  alternatives to local contests; such

         6  as, MERD drills and realistic

         7  simulation training.

         8           We have heard testimony at

         9  some of the other public hearings

        10  from mine rescue teams that

        11  participated in certain simulated

        12  training, smoke training.  They gave

        13  us examples of certain training.

        14           So, if you all have certain

        15  training like that, that you think

        16  would provide a reasonable

        17  alternative to contests, then,

        18  include that, too.

        19           MR. RUSSELL:  With these non-

        20  team members, could we provide a list

        21  of those names that are affiliated

        22  with our teams that we feel like

        23  could provide expertise or that would

                                                  46





         1  not be active team members but would

         2  be -- they would take physicals and

         3  they would keep the current

         4  requirements for mine rescue

         5  apparatus, the wearing of the

         6  apparatus, the donning of the

         7  apparatus and those kinds of things

         8  but not compete.  We could just do

         9  some things with them at the mine

        10  sites when we do the underground

        11  visits and when we do things like

        12  that.

        13           I just don't want to get in a

        14  situation where there could be people

        15  missing somewhere -- and we have mine

        16  rescue teams that are quite capable,

        17  but then there are those in this

        18  district and other districts across

        19  this country that have expertise that

        20  would be valuable -- invaluable in

        21  those types of situations, and they

        22  need to be a part of a team.

        23           MS. SILVEY:  Okay.  So what

                                                  47





         1  you are talking about -- do the

         2  members that you are talking about --

         3  you say "I know they wear the

         4  apparatus."  They have certain

         5  maybe -- you know, I'm just making

         6  this up.  They may be trained EMTs.

         7           MR. RUSSELL:  There you go.

         8           MS. SILVEY:  They have maybe

         9  certain expertise.

        10           MR. RUSSELL:  They have

        11  certain skills that set them apart --

        12           MS. SILVEY:  Certain skills,

        13  I understand that.

        14           MR. RUSSELL:  -- and their

        15  experience factor that they have been

        16  in about every situation there is.  I

        17  don't want for these people to be

        18  excluded during the first three days

        19  of an event if their expertise could

        20  be used.

        21           MS. SILVEY:  But do they

        22  participate in any kind of other -- I

        23  assume they participate in some other

                                                  48





         1  kind of emergency training.

         2           MR. RUSSELL:  These people

         3  that I'm speaking of, they're around

         4  mine rescue.  They set up problems,

         5  or they're helping -- I'll use myself

         6  as an example.

         7           I'm the Director of Training

         8  at the Alabama Mine Training

         9  Consortium or the Mine Academy in

        10  Mine Technology at Bevill State.  I'm

        11  technically the head of the mine

        12  rescue portion of it, also.  That's a

        13  part under me.  I've had a lot of

        14  experience.

        15           If a particular mine had an

        16  event and it required -- there were

        17  missing people or something like

        18  that, I would want to be a part of

        19  that portion of it because I feel

        20  like I have that expertise and

        21  knowledge.

        22           There are other people in

        23  this district -- and I could name

                                                  49





         1  names, and you would know exactly who

         2  I'm talking about -- in the area who

         3  are mine rescue, are savvy and around

         4  it all the time.  It's a part of

         5  their life.

         6           I just don't want them or

         7  myself to be excluded from anything

         8  like that because we all know the

         9  risks associated with mine rescue,

        10  and that's a part of it.

        11           That's just a portion, those

        12  skilled people that are not team

        13  members.  We would provide a list of

        14  maybe -- there wouldn't be probably

        15  over three or four from us that we

        16  would do that way.

        17           There may be other mining

        18  companies or other industries that

        19  would want the same thing that would

        20  list engineers or pumping

        21  specialists.  Not everybody can pump.

        22  Shoal Creek, in this state, can pump

        23  water.  They know how to do it.

                                                  50





         1           I'm just saying there are

         2  people with expertise out there that

         3  you need to utilize whenever

         4  possible.  Just because they're not

         5  on a team at this particular time,

         6  they have had all the experience in

         7  mine rescue training and apparatus

         8  training in different situations; and

         9  I think we should include them.

        10           MS. SILVEY:  Okay.  That's

        11  really, I think, all that I have.

        12           Do you all have anything?

        13           MR. KALICH:  I've got a

        14  question.

        15           You mentioned -- you talked

        16  about certain credits for state

        17  inspectors.

        18           MR. RUSSELL:  Yes.

        19           MR. KALICH:  You felt that

        20  that was good for the underground

        21  training but not other portions of

        22  the training --

        23           MR. RUSSELL:  Right.

                                                  51





         1           MR. KALICH:  To give a

         2  credit.

         3           Would you expound on that a

         4  little bit?

         5           MR. RUSSELL:  I just feel

         6  like they need to don that apparatus

         7  at all times because that is part of

         8  the training, whether it's in the

         9  heat, those requirements -- there are

        10  only eight hours every two months.  I

        11  don't think we need to shorten that

        12  time on training.

        13           The mine site training, they

        14  are there way more than in this

        15  state.  I accuse our inspectors of

        16  being there every three weeks and are

        17  technically there every 45 days.  So

        18  they are at these mine sites.  So

        19  they see that because they're there.

        20           I just feel like the

        21  training, as a group in the comradery

        22  phase of it and in the training

        23  competition phase, they need to be a

                                                  52





         1  part of that.

         2           MR. KALICH:  Going to the

         3  one-hour travel time, you suggested a

         4  District Manager be able to grant a

         5  waiver to the one-hour travel time.

         6  As Pat has asked, if you would, give

         7  us some specific alternatives.

         8           MR. RUSSELL:  I replied that

         9  I will have that to her by November

        10  9th, and the written comments.

        11           MR. WILSON:  This is a two-

        12  part question.  You said the State of

        13  Alabama could not afford to establish

        14  a new station, it's not feasible.

        15  How much would it cost for you -- for

        16  the State of Alabama to buy the

        17  equipment, buy the building, lease

        18  the build, roughly; and how much is

        19  it annually to maintain it?

        20           MR. RUSSELL:  I have really

        21  not run all those figures.  I know

        22  what it costs to maintain for two

        23  units.  We're replacing our units.

                                                  53





         1  We are going through a phase of

         2  replacement.

         3           I purchased two units at

         4  about $18,500.  I'm buying spare

         5  parts.  All of those things for this

         6  year's budget.

         7           It's $87,000 to maintain the

         8  units that we currently have.  That

         9  does not include all the other

        10  things, like the gas detectors.

        11           We feel like we try to go

        12  above and beyond on equipment, as far

        13  as having boots, coveralls, hard

        14  hats, and belts that we can load into

        15  the truck right there that have their

        16  size and their name and everything

        17  they want in there.

        18           We have first aid equipment.

        19  We have everything that you could

        20  possibly use in a mine rescue event

        21  because we realized at some of the

        22  mines we would be self-sustaining.

        23  So we would have to have everything

                                                  54





         1  there is.

         2           So the answer that question

         3  is:  I can get you figures.

         4           MR. WILSON:  Approximate

         5  figures.  Could you submit them?

         6           MR. RUSSELL:  I can tell you

         7  what it costs to maintain our team.

         8  It's $240,000 a year.  That's what it

         9  costs to maintain two teams in the

        10  State of Alabama.

        11           We have absolutely nothing in

        12  the budget.  We are squeaking the

        13  last month of the year.

        14           MR. WILSON:  If you could,

        15  provide that cost and the costs to

        16  establish a new station.  We've

        17  received some estimates, but I want

        18  to make sure we have a broad

        19  spectrum.

        20           MR. RUSSELL:  I looked at

        21  some of those estimates that you

        22  have.  I don't agree with those.  I

        23  don't know where all those came from.

                                                  55





         1           MS. SILVEY:  If you remember,

         2  I said that in the opening statement,

         3  to comment on MSHA's estimates in

         4  deriving the cost estimates.  If

         5  anybody has different cost numbers or

         6  different assumptions, if we used the

         7  wrong assumptions, just let us know.

         8           MR. RUSSELL:  Mr. Wilson, I

         9  will get you those numbers.

        10           MR. WILSON:  Thank you.

        11           MR. RUSSELL:  At least by

        12  November 9th.  You have given me a

        13  lot of homework.

        14           MS. SILVEY:  We've given it

        15  to everybody.  Everybody that has the

        16  courage to come up to the microphone

        17  is getting a lot of homework.  Not

        18  everybody is coming up here.

        19           MR. RUSSELL:  I understand.

        20           MS. SILVEY:  I probably

        21  shouldn't have said that because that

        22  means that the people who don't come

        23  up to the microphone -- it's not that

                                                  56





         1  they don't have courage.

         2           We may be getting written

         3  comments from people who don't come

         4  up to the microphone, either.  A lot

         5  of times, that's what happens.

         6           Anymore comments?

         7           Thank you very much.

         8           MR. RUSSELL:  Ms. Patricia,

         9  I'd like to say one thing.  Roll

        10  Tide.

        11           MS. SILVEY:  Roll Tide.

        12  1969.  It's been a long time.

        13           Next, then, I think -- we

        14  don't have a listed speaker, but

        15  Mr. Byram, are you testifying?

        16           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, ma'am.

        17           MS. SILVEY:  Okay.

        18           MR. BYRAM:  Good morning.  My

        19  name is Dale Byram; D-a-l-e,

        20  B-y-r-a-m.

        21           I work with Jim Walter

        22  Resources in Brookwood, Alabama.  I

        23  do appreciate the opportunity to

                                                  57





         1  speak with you today on such an

         2  important issue as mine rescue.

         3           What I would like to do is

         4  just read my comments that I

         5  presented Ms. Silvey with, and then I

         6  will be glad to entertain any

         7  questions or comments that you may

         8  have.

         9           The Department of Labor, Mine

        10  Safety and Health Administration's

        11  Mine Rescue Teams and Equipment;

        12  Proposed Rules will have varying

        13  effects on teams and operators.

        14           We reviewed the proposed

        15  regulation with two basic positions.

        16  First, how would it affect the safety

        17  and efficiency of our Jim Walter Mine

        18  Rescue Teams?  Secondly, how would it

        19  affect our nations mine rescue teams?

        20           Our comments reflect both

        21  positions.  With respect to the

        22  Panel's request for specifics, some

        23  of our answers are generalized; but I

                                                  58





         1  will go back and try to expand if you

         2  ask questions related to that.

         3           Under Part 49.12(B)(f),

         4  Availability of Mine Rescue Teams, it

         5  reads:  "No mine served by a mine

         6  rescue team shall be located more

         7  than one hour ground travel time from

         8  the mine rescue station with which

         9  the team is associated."

        10           We recognize the value of

        11  rapid response and believe that one

        12  hour or less response time from a

        13  mine rescue station to a covered mine

        14  is a realistic goal.  Yet, at this

        15  particular point in our industry, we

        16  do not believe that there is an

        17  infrastructure in place to meet this

        18  requirement.

        19           We believe that a variance

        20  with reasonable time lines should be

        21  granted to operators who cannot

        22  currently meet this part of the

        23  regulation.

                                                  59





         1           Even when seeking a variance,

         2  they should be held to a maximum of

         3  two hours ground travel time, as

         4  currently listed in the reg, with

         5  efforts directed towards compliance

         6  within a reasonable time frame.

         7           Also, under 49.12(g),

         8  Availability of Mine Rescue Teams,

         9  the last sentence in the section

        10  reads:  "The requirement that mine

        11  rescue teams be available shall not

        12  apply when teams are participating in

        13  mine rescue contests or providing

        14  services to another mine."

        15           The purpose of the MINER Act

        16  was to improve the health, safety,

        17  and survivability of our miners.  We

        18  strongly disagree with this position.

        19           JWR knows the value of having

        20  teams to assist with another Mine's

        21  emergency; and we recognize that

        22  participating in mine rescue contests

        23  builds confidence, team work, and

                                                  60





         1  instinctive moves that will be used

         2  in an actual event; but we cannot

         3  validate leaving our miners

         4  unprotected for these reasons.

         5  Reconsideration should be given to

         6  this area of the proposed regulation.

         7           The next section I will skip.

         8  We will come back to it on equipment.

         9           49-20, Requirements for All

        10  Coal Mines.  Composite Teams.  Jim

        11  Walter has three mine rescue teams,

        12  one of which is a composite team.

        13           We can agree with and comply

        14  pretty much with the way this

        15  regulation was written.

        16           Looking at a contract team

        17  issue, though, where other teams in

        18  the country or other mines in the

        19  country will be affected, we polled

        20  our teams and found that even though

        21  there is benefit to having someone

        22  with a team that knows the contract

        23  mine, unanimously, our teams felt

                                                  61





         1  more confident in having a

         2  knowledgeable person available on

         3  each shift at the contract mine to

         4  accurately brief the teams rather

         5  than trying to incorporate a contract

         6  team member into our existing teams

         7  that work well together.

         8           75.1501, Emergency

         9  Evacuation.  75.1502 reads:  "The

        10  responsible person shall be trained

        11  annually in mine emergency response.

        12  Training shall include knowledge in

        13  the following" -- and there is a list

        14  of things; such as, organizing a

        15  command center, directing fire

        16  fighting personnel, and deploying

        17  fire fighting equipment.

        18           "Training shall include

        19  knowledge in the following" means to

        20  us that this person will be informed

        21  of these actions, yet their

        22  responsibility will remain clearly as

        23  listed that they are to direct the

                                                  62





         1  emergency evacuation of the mine.

         2           We found it a bit confusing.

         3  When we read it the first time, we

         4  took issue with way it was written

         5  because we thought that our

         6  responsible person was being given

         7  these additional responsibilities.

         8           It's our request that the

         9  Panel consider clarifying this so

        10  that other operators, especially new

        11  operators, will not have that

        12  confusion.  That responsible person

        13  has a very vital job.

        14           Finally, I have two areas for

        15  topics that were not covered in the

        16  regulation that we would like to

        17  present for consideration.

        18           Increased Emergency Medical

        19  Training for Mine Rescue Team

        20  Members.  In every mine rescue event,

        21  teams will be faced with a

        22  possibility of a team member down;

        23  such as, what happened at Crandall

                                                  63





         1  Canyon.  In those events, where teams

         2  were searching for missing miners,

         3  the chance for needed emergency care

         4  was even more evident -- Jim Walter,

         5  Sago, Alma, and others -- yet there

         6  is no provision in this regulation to

         7  meet this identified need.

         8           All mine rescue team members

         9  should be trained to a minimum

        10  standard; such as, a DOT First

        11  Responder.  In addition, as with the

        12  mine rescue equipment that we'll talk

        13  about later today, there should be

        14  emergency care equipment available

        15  for these team members to use at the

        16  fresh air base or at other strategic

        17  locations.

        18           Lastly, Special Skills

        19  Provision.  The regulation outlines

        20  the physical requirements, training,

        21  and competition requirements

        22  necessary to be an active mine rescue

        23  team member.  During many rescue

                                                  64





         1  operations, we have used individuals

         2  who have special skills to meet

         3  critical needs.  These individuals

         4  have been mine rescue trained

         5  paramedics, ventilation technicians,

         6  and pumpers.

         7           The regulation, as written,

         8  fails to recognize this group of

         9  individuals who bring value to an

        10  emergency.

        11           Consideration should be given

        12  to expanding the regulation to

        13  provide opportunity for these

        14  individuals to be used.  In addition,

        15  to facilitate the process prior to an

        16  emergency, some form of preapproval

        17  should be available through the

        18  District Manager.

        19           The preapproval could

        20  incorporate a review of the

        21  individual's background, his mine

        22  rescue training, and his physical.

        23           Mine rescue is an invaluable

                                                  65





         1  asset.  We owe it to our teams and to

         2  the operators and miners to develop

         3  regulations that protect them and

         4  help to enhance their chances for

         5  success.

         6           Thank you.

         7           MS. SILVEY:  Thank you.

         8           Mr. Byram, with respect to

         9  the Jim Walters teams, you

        10  mentioned -- I had down here first I

        11  was going to ask you:  How many teams

        12  do you have?  I think --

        13           MR. BYRAM:  We have three

        14  teams.

        15           MS. SILVEY:  They service how

        16  many mines?

        17           MR. BYRAM:  Two.

        18           MS. SILVEY:  The three teams

        19  service the two mines?

        20           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, ma'am.

        21           MS. SILVEY:  Right now, you

        22  are able to meet the one-hour

        23  requirement?

                                                  66





         1           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, ma'am.

         2           MS. SILVEY:  Okay.  I'm going

         3  to go through your testimony a little

         4  bit.

         5           With respect to that sentence

         6  you talked about, the last -- I just

         7  want to clarify something.  The last

         8  sentence in 49.12(g), that was a

         9  sentence that's in the existing

        10  regulation, just so everybody knows.

        11           At some point along the way,

        12  I started putting in the opening

        13  statement that this proposal did not

        14  change the existing regulation.  The

        15  goal of MSHA was to implement the

        16  MINER Act in the proposal and not to

        17  change the existing regulation.

        18           Not to disagree with what you

        19  said, that even if mine rescue teams

        20  are away at an emergency or are

        21  participating in contests or

        22  providing services to another mine,

        23  the members still need service.

                                                  67





         1           This sentence -- I've been

         2  there at MSHA so long, I did the

         3  original regulation.  So I remember

         4  this sentence.  This sentence was put

         5  in there in direct response to

         6  comments at that time, 19 whatever it

         7  was, when the Mine Rescue Regulation

         8  was done, '80, I think.

         9           It was put in there for

        10  persons who felt like the mine should

        11  not be penalized, with respect to the

        12  two-team provision, if the teams were

        13  away providing service to another

        14  mine.

        15           So that's why that

        16  sentence -- just so everybody knows,

        17  that's why that sentence was put in

        18  there.  So, not to disagree with you;

        19  but that was put in the initial

        20  regulation in direct response to

        21  comments.

        22           With respect to -- you are

        23  exactly right.  I want to say that.

                                                  68





         1  I'm glad you included that in your

         2  comment, with respect to the duties

         3  of the responsible person.

         4           The proposal said that the

         5  responsible person shall be trained

         6  in these activities; organizing a

         7  command center, directing fire

         8  fighting personal, deploying fire

         9  fighting equipment.  It says

        10  "trained."  It doesn't say "take on."

        11           I'm glad you pointed that

        12  out.  Several other people who

        13  commented thought that these were all

        14  the duties of the responsible person,

        15  but it said, "Shall be trained in

        16  those things."  We will make sure we

        17  clarify that in the final ruling.

        18           Mr. Russell talked about this

        19  somewhat, too.  You said, "The topics

        20  that are not covered by the

        21  regulation."  For my own information,

        22  the Department of Transportation

        23  First Responder Standard or

                                                  69





         1  Regulation, I assume that that

         2  requires training in certain due

         3  procedures or provisions or whatever?

         4           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, ma'am.

         5           MS. SILVEY:  About how long

         6  is that training?

         7           MR. BYRAM:  It's a 40-hour

         8  training program.

         9           MS. SILVEY:  Oh, it's a 40-

        10  hour training program?

        11           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, ma'am.  It's

        12  above --

        13           MS. SILVEY:  I was going to

        14  ask you -- and I know you're going to

        15  tell me what it is, but does it go --

        16  it goes beyond the training that we

        17  require for the MINER Act in our

        18  regulation?

        19           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, ma'am.  As a

        20  matter of fact, I think on the back

        21  of that handout, I have a copy of the

        22  "National Curriculum" cover page.

        23           MR. WILSON:  I think other

                                                  70





         1  organizations -- I think American Red

         2  Cross or others have 60 hours.  So

         3  different organizations have

         4  different requirements.

         5           I'm a former First Responder

         6  myself.  It depends on the

         7  organization as to how long.  The

         8  training is a little different, a

         9  little more or less in depth in

        10  certain areas.

        11           MR. BYRAM:  We got permission

        12  to do certain variations on our

        13  training for our team.  We took

        14  delivering babies and put more trauma

        15  methods.

        16           Seriously, it's far more

        17  viable to a mine rescue team need.

        18  We are mine rescue team members.  We

        19  respond to emergencies.

        20           We have team members and have

        21  experienced team members down in

        22  hostile environments.  You've got to

        23  have the training to take care of

                                                  71





         1  that guy and get him back to a fresh

         2  air base, beyond just grab and drag;

         3  and we can do this.

         4           MS. SILVEY:  With respect to

         5  the special skills, I want to make

         6  sure that I, and maybe some of the

         7  panel members, clearly understand

         8  what you're saying.

         9           Are you saying that these

        10  certain designated persons with this

        11  special expertise should be available

        12  for the team but not necessarily one

        13  of the five members and an alternate?

        14  Are you saying that they should be

        15  available so the team can call on

        16  them if they need to?  What exactly

        17  are you saying?

        18           MR. BYRAM:  Okay.  That may

        19  be a good way to look at it.  I think

        20  Jeff -- I could yield to him, as many

        21  emergency responses as he has been

        22  involved in.  There is always a need

        23  for some special expertise during an

                                                  72





         1  event.

         2           The way the reg is

         3  structured -- Ken and I have talked

         4  about this; and other operators have,

         5  too.  The way the reg is structured,

         6  we believe that it would prevent a

         7  person such as Ken or myself from

         8  being involved in the actual hands-on

         9  rescue effort because we are not

        10  affiliated with a formalized active

        11  team that's competing.

        12           MS. SILVEY:  I see.

        13           MR. BYRAM:  That shouldn't

        14  negate our wearing the apparatus for

        15  two hours as outlined in the other

        16  parts of the reg, and for physical

        17  requirements and things like that.

        18  We are missing a available tool.

        19           MR. WILSON:  Because we are

        20  missing one certain aspect of a

        21  requirement of the total mine rescue

        22  team.

        23           MR. BYRAM:  Part of a total

                                                  73





         1  rescue effort, yeah.  They wouldn't

         2  necessarily be tied to a team, but

         3  they would be mine rescue trained and

         4  approved to be able to function.

         5           The reason I put in for

         6  preapproval is, like Ken said -- as

         7  y'all know, the first two days of an

         8  event are critical times.  The first

         9  10 hours is a critical time.

        10           In trying to get this worked

        11  out, sometimes in the heat of the

        12  battle, it's a hard thing to do.  It

        13  needs to be able to be preapproved

        14  and accepted.

        15           MR. WILSON:  You and

        16  Mr. Russell talked about attendance

        17  at local contests.  I guess, as I

        18  understand what you all are saying,

        19  it's the least important of these

        20  requirements.  If these consultants

        21  or skilled people did everything

        22  else, met all the other requirements

        23  but attended a local contest, they

                                                  74





         1  should be allowed to participate.

         2           MR. BYRAM:  Yeah.  They would

         3  meet all the other requirements but

         4  not necessarily be affiliated with a

         5  team, per se, like one of the six

         6  working team members.

         7           MS. SILVEY:  It almost seems

         8  to me that maybe what you're saying

         9  is that the teams should have access

        10  to persons with special expertise if

        11  they need those persons.

        12           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, ma'am.

        13           MR. KALICH:  Would you

        14  suggest that special person replace a

        15  team member or accompany a team?

        16           MR. BYRAM:  Accompany a team.

        17           MS. SILVEY:  That's what it

        18  sounds like to me.  If anybody wants

        19  to clarify that, if Mr. Russell wants

        20  to come back, I'm just trying to

        21  figure out what you mean.

        22           Anybody else?

        23           MR. KRAVITZ:  If you've got

                                                  75





         1  requirements from the two teams and

         2  the team members have the criteria

         3  here, they are basically ancillary

         4  people.  Other people are actually

         5  participating in the emergency.  If

         6  they still have the hazard training

         7  and still go underground, it's up to

         8  the command center to participate

         9  with special skills.

        10           MR. BYRAM:  That's good to

        11  know.  We were concerned that by the

        12  rewriting if the reg, it might

        13  prevent that, unless it was addressed

        14  specifically.

        15           MR. KRAVITZ:  If you can

        16  identify instances where it might

        17  hinder people from participating, we

        18  would like to know that.

        19           MR. BYRAM:  Okay.

        20           MR. KRAVITZ:  For your three

        21  teams, did you provide coverage for

        22  any other mines?

        23           MR. BYRAM:  No, we do not.  I

                                                  76





         1  appreciate you bringing that up

         2  because I want to make reference to

         3  something Pat talked to Mr. Russell

         4  about.

         5           That unnamed mine in question

         6  is 57 minutes from our mine rescue

         7  station.

         8           MS. SILVEY:  Is that right?

         9           MR. BYRAM:  57 minutes.

        10  That's on the edge, isn't it?

        11  However --

        12           MS. SILVEY:  But you all --

        13           MR. BYRAM:  -- we don't

        14  contract services.  Now, would we

        15  respond if that mine --

        16           MS. SILVEY:  You would.

        17           MR. BYRAM:  In a heartbeat.

        18           What happens is when an

        19  operator elects to contract to -- an

        20  operator elects to contract.  That's

        21  out of his realm of normal business

        22  practice.  You just subjected your

        23  teams to hazards you chose to do, and

                                                  77





         1  I don't know that that's a position

         2  that an operator needs to be put

         3  into.

         4           If a variance could be given

         5  to where there's time to work through

         6  these things, then we would certainly

         7  support that kind of legislation.

         8           MR. KALICH:  You had

         9  mentioned about the First Responder

        10  training and emergency care

        11  equipment.  If you would, submit what

        12  type of equipment you would like to

        13  see for the team and exactly what

        14  type of training you would like to

        15  see and how many team members.  Do

        16  you suggest the entire team?

        17           MR. BYRAM:  We have looked at

        18  that, Mike.  We initially had said

        19  three team members per team.

        20           MR. KALICH:  If you would,

        21  submit that to us so we can have that

        22  on the record.

        23           MR. WILSON:  I would defer to

                                                  78





         1  Pat, but I would think the equipment

         2  you suggested might go into the

         3  equipment portion later on.  I don't

         4  know.

         5           MS. SILVEY:  This is fine.

         6  What you did here is fine on that

         7  issue because what you're doing is

         8  you're bringing it up within the

         9  context of the mine rescue team.  You

        10  see it as an additional requirement

        11  for the team.

        12           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, ma'am.

        13           MS. SILVEY:  That's fine.

        14           Anything else?

        15           Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Byram,

        16  very much.

        17           Is there anybody else who

        18  wishes to make a comment or provide

        19  testimony?  Anybody else in the

        20  audience have additional comments or

        21  testimony?

        22           Nobody else.  Okay.  If

        23  nobody else, then, wishes to testify,

                                                  79





         1  I will conclude this Mine Safety and

         2  Health Administration's Public

         3  Hearing on Mine Rescue Teams.

         4           As I do so, I want to thank

         5  everybody that came today, the

         6  persons who testified and provided us

         7  with valuable information and those

         8  who attended and may not have

         9  testified but showed that they had an

        10  interest in the proceedings.

        11           I do want to reiterate, too,

        12  just so people know because people

        13  have expressed different thoughts to

        14  us about this, this proposal in no

        15  way was intended to reflect any

        16  negativity about the current mine

        17  rescue team situation.  In each of

        18  the unfortunate events that we have

        19  had to suffer through over the last

        20  several years, I think the mine

        21  rescue teams responded admirably,

        22  quickly, and beyond reproach.

        23           I think anybody in MSHA and

                                                  80





         1  anybody in the mining community will

         2  say that.  So we say, again, thank

         3  you.

         4           As I said, we have the MINER

         5  Act.  We've got the proposal, and

         6  we're going to do the best we can to

         7  craft a final rule that implements

         8  the MINER Act but does so in a manner

         9  that continues that long and

        10  important tradition of mine rescue

        11  team service in this country.

        12           I ask that anybody who has

        13  specific impact along the lines of

        14  those offered by Mr. Russell and

        15  Mr. Byram, if you would, submit your

        16  comments to us before November 9th.

        17  Anybody who testified today and said

        18  they would provide additional

        19  information, if you would, do

        20  likewise.

        21           At this time, we appreciate

        22  your coming, and we appreciate your

        23  testimony.  The Mine Safety and

                                                  81





         1  Health Administration Public Hearing

         2  on the Proposal on Mine Rescue Teams

         3  and Underground Coal Mines is now

         4  concluded.  Thank you.

         5           (Recess.)

         6           MS. SILVEY:  Good morning.

         7  My name is Patricia W. Silvey.  I'm

         8  the Director of the Mine Safety and

         9  Health Administration's Office of

        10  Standards.  I will be the moderator

        11  of this public hearing on MSHA's

        12  proposal for Mine Rescue Team

        13  Equipment.

        14           On behalf of Richard E.

        15  Stickler, the Assistant Secretary of

        16  Labor for Mine Safety and Health, I

        17  want to welcome all of you here.

        18           The MSHA members of the

        19  panel -- and these are the persons

        20  who are principally responsible for

        21  the drafting of this proposal -- are,

        22  on my left:  William (Bill) Wilson,

        23  with Metal and Non-Metal Mine Safety

                                                  82





         1  and Health and the team leader for

         2  the project; Michael Kalich, with the

         3  Office of Coal Mine Safety and

         4  Health; and Jeffrey Kravitz, with the

         5  Office of Technical Support at the

         6  Tech Support Center in Pittsburgh.

         7           On my right, is Cheri

         8  Hutchison from my office; Matt Ward,

         9  an attorney with the Office of the

        10  Solicitor; and Mr. Phuc Phan, who is

        11  an Economist in my office.

        12           Before we start the hearing,

        13  as we normally do, I would like to

        14  ask you to join me in a moment of

        15  silence in memory of all of the

        16  miners and rescuers who lost their

        17  lives in mine accidents throughout

        18  this country; particularly, those at

        19  the recent tragic accident at

        20  Crandall Canyon.  So, right now, if

        21  you would join me in a moment of

        22  silence, I would appreciate it.

        23           (A moment of silence was

                                                  83





         1  observed.)

         2           MS. SILVEY:  Thank you very

         3  much.

         4           Before I proceed further,

         5  also, I want to say that our agency,

         6  the Labor Department, appreciates

         7  very much the sacrifices and the

         8  altruistic service.  I don't think we

         9  can put enough terms to the type of

        10  service that is provided by mine

        11  rescue team members.

        12           We do very much appreciate --

        13  that is a necessary service; and we

        14  very much appreciate the effort, the

        15  service, and the many sacrifices made

        16  by mine rescue teams and their

        17  members.

        18           This is the last of four

        19  public hearings that we've held on

        20  this proposal.  The first one was in

        21  Salt Lake City, Utah on October 23rd.

        22  The second one was in Lexington,

        23  Kentucky on October 25th.  The third

                                                  84





         1  one was this past Tuesday in

         2  Charleston, West Virginia.

         3           Of course, we are holding

         4  both hearings on the same day so that

         5  persons interested in both rulings

         6  can attend.

         7           Significantly, the Mine

         8  Rescue Team Equipment Proposed Rule

         9  applies to all underground mines;

        10  metal, non-metal, and coal.  We have

        11  copies of the "Federal Register" that

        12  contains this proposal on the table

        13  with the attendance sheets.

        14           Also, I would like to ask

        15  you -- and I hope we have separate

        16  attendance sheets for Mine Rescue

        17  Team Equipment Rule.  Even if you

        18  signed the attendance sheet for the

        19  Mine Rescue TEAMS Proposal, if you

        20  would, please sign a separate

        21  attendance sheet for this proposal,

        22  the equipment one, because these are

        23  two separate rules; and we are making

                                                  85





         1  two separate rule-making records.

         2           The comment period for the

         3  proposal ends on November 9th.  We

         4  must receive your comments by

         5  midnight Eastern Standard Time on

         6  that date.

         7           As of October 30th, we have

         8  received five comments.  You can view

         9  the comments on the Agency's website

        10  at www.msha.gov, under the section

        11  Rules and Regulations.

        12           This proposal addresses Mine

        13  Rescue Team Equipment at mine rescue

        14  stations serving underground coal and

        15  metal and non-metal mines.  MSHA

        16  proposes to amend the existing

        17  standard to reflect advances in Mine

        18  Rescue Team Equipment Technology.

        19           It is critical that mine

        20  rescue team members be provided with

        21  the latest in protective equipment so

        22  that they can safely and effectively

        23  carry out their mission.

                                                  86





         1           The purpose of the hearing is

         2  to receive information from the

         3  public that will help MSHA evaluate

         4  the requirements in the proposal and

         5  produce a final rule that enhances

         6  team safety and effectiveness.

         7           The preamble to the proposal

         8  discusses the provisions and the rule

         9  and includes a number of specific

        10  requests for information.  MSHA

        11  requests comments on all of the

        12  proposed equipment provisions and on

        13  the validity of the Agency's

        14  assumption in deriving cost

        15  estimates.

        16           As you address these

        17  provisions, either in your testimony

        18  here today or in your written

        19  comments, please be as specific as

        20  possible about how these changes

        21  would affect the safety and health of

        22  miners and mine rescue team members.

        23           MSHA also requests detailed

                                                  87





         1  information and data on the cost and

         2  feasibility of implementing the

         3  provision.

         4           I want to summarize the

         5  substantive changes in the proposal.

         6  The Mine Rescue Team Equipment

         7  Proposal upgrades and enhances

         8  certain types of equipment required

         9  in mine rescue stations and increases

        10  the amount of critical supplies that

        11  must be available.

        12           The proposal would upgrade

        13  requirements for self-contained

        14  breathing apparatus, SCBA, from a

        15  two- hour to a four-hour device.

        16  MSHA determined that all mine rescue

        17  stations in the United States

        18  currently have the four-hour

        19  breathing apparatus.

        20           The proposal would increase

        21  the required number of extra oxygen

        22  bottles from one additional bottle to

        23  two additional bottles to provide an

                                                  88





         1  added measure of safety for mine

         2  rescue teams during time-sensitive

         3  rescue operations.

         4           The proposal would increase

         5  the amount of liquid air, liquid

         6  oxygen, pressurized oxygen, or

         7  oxygen-generated chemicals and carbon

         8  dioxide-absorbable chemicals to

         9  maintain self-contained breathing

        10  apparatus for eight hours rather than

        11  the existing six hours because

        12  industry practice is to stock these

        13  supplies in bulk.

        14           MSHA assumes that there are

        15  no costs associated with the

        16  requirements, but specifically

        17  requests comments on the Agency's

        18  assumption.

        19           The proposal would require

        20  mine rescue stations to be equipped

        21  with full gas detectors appropriate

        22  for each gas which may be encountered

        23  at the mine served.  If methane,

                                                  89





         1  oxygen, or carbon monoxide may be

         2  encountered, a gas detector must

         3  measure the concentration of methane

         4  from 0 percent to 100 percent of

         5  volume, oxygen from 0 percent to at

         6  least 20 percent of volume, and

         7  carbon monoxide from 0 parts per

         8  million to at least 10,000 parts per

         9  million.

        10           MSHA is particularly

        11  interested in comments on its

        12  assumption that all mine rescue

        13  stations, including those serving

        14  non-gassy, metal, and non-metal mines

        15  would choose to purchase four

        16  multi-gas detectors with multiple

        17  sensor heads rather than four

        18  single-gas detectors for each gas

        19  likely to be encountered.

        20           The proposal would delete the

        21  existing requirements for flame

        22  safety lamps and oxygen indicators

        23  due to advances in gas detector

                                                  90





         1  technology.  These outdated devices

         2  could still be used as a backup.

         3           Mine rescue teams have relied

         4  on self-contained self-rescue

         5  devices, SCSRs, or self-containing

         6  breathing apparatuses, SCBAs, to

         7  revive or help survivors breath

         8  during rescue operations.

         9           These devices are heavy and

        10  may not be appropriate for

        11  unconscious persons or those who have

        12  stopped breathing.  Lightweight

        13  oxygen resuscitators weighing about

        14  six pounds with the oxygen bottle are

        15  now available through at least one

        16  manufacturer.

        17           MSHA requests comments on

        18  whether an oxygen resuscitator should

        19  be required at a mine rescue station

        20  by a mine rescue team.

        21           MSHA's estimated cost for

        22  compliance with the proposal are

        23  contained in the preamble.  There is

                                                  91





         1  no separate preliminary regulatory

         2  economic analysis.

         3           MSHA estimated a total and

         4  in-compliance cost of $237,000 for

         5  underground coal mines and $131,000

         6  for underground metal and non-metal

         7  mines.  This cost estimate supports

         8  our finding that the proposal is

         9  economically feasible.

        10           MSHA requests comments on all

        11  of the assumptions and data used in

        12  deriving the Agency's estimate.

        13           The hearing will be conducted

        14  in an informal manner.  Formal rules

        15  of evidence will not apply.

        16           The Panel may ask questions

        17  of the witnesses, and the witnesses

        18  may ask questions of the Panel.

        19  Cross-examination is not allowed.

        20           MSHA will make a transcript

        21  of the hearing and post it on the

        22  Agency's website within one to two

        23  weeks after the completion of the

                                                  92





         1  hearing.

         2           If you wish to present

         3  written statements or information,

         4  please clearly identify your material

         5  and give it to one of the panel

         6  members.

         7           You may also submit comments

         8  following this public hearing by any

         9  of the methods listed in the

        10  proposal.  As I said earlier, to be

        11  considered, the Agency must receive

        12  your comments by November 9th.

        13           We ask everyone in attendance

        14  to sign the attendance sheet.  If you

        15  plan to testify, please sign the

        16  speakers list.

        17           If you have a hard copy or an

        18  electronic version of the

        19  presentation, please provide a copy

        20  to the court reporter.

        21           We will now hear from those

        22  signed up to speak.  Please start by

        23  stating your name and organization

                                                  93





         1  and spelling your name for the

         2  reporter.

         3           Our first speaker today -- on

         4  my list, I have Mr. Russell; but I

         5  don't know if you intend to speak on

         6  the equipment.

         7           MR. RUSSELL:  No.

         8           MS. SILVEY:  I wasn't quite

         9  sure.  You don't intend to speak.

        10           I think Mr. Byram intends to

        11  speak.  You can come up at this time.

        12           MR. BYRAM:  Hello.  My name

        13  Dale Byram; D-a-l-e, B-y-r-a-m.  I

        14  work with Jim Walter Resources in

        15  Alabama.

        16           Thank you for this

        17  opportunity to speak.  I have just a

        18  few brief comments about mine rescue

        19  equipment, beginning at 49.15, Mine

        20  Rescue Station, through 49.16,

        21  Equipment and Maintenance

        22  Requirements.

        23           49.16(a)(3) was a bit

                                                  94





         1  confusing to us.  The regulation

         2  reads:  "Two extra fully charged

         3  oxygen bottles for every six

         4  self-contained breathing apparatus."

         5           Our question is:  What was

         6  the intent of the regulation?  Is it

         7  to have two extra bottles per

         8  apparatus for a total of twelve extra

         9  bottles; or is it for the six

        10  apparatus to have two additional

        11  bottles for a total of eight?

        12           MS. SILVEY:  I will answer

        13  that.

        14           MR. BYRAM:  We continued on

        15  in my written copy that you have.  We

        16  say that depending on what the answer

        17  is, we believe that there should be a

        18  minimum of one extra bottle for each

        19  of the six apparatuses.

        20           We are concerned that our

        21  teams could get -- again, our teams

        22  aren't really affected by this at Jim

        23  Walter because we have ample supplies

                                                  95





         1  of the bottles for apparatuses.

         2           Looking down the road for new

         3  teams and teams that may find

         4  themselves in rural areas, we believe

         5  it's more efficient for the teams to

         6  have one extra bottle per apparatus.

         7           49.15(c) reads:  "Mine rescue

         8  station shall provide a proper

         9  storage environment to assure

        10  equipment readiness for immediate

        11  use."

        12           We agree that the storage

        13  environment must protect our

        14  equipment for immediate use, yet we

        15  would like consideration related to

        16  two specific pieces of equipment.

        17  These are as follows:

        18           49.16(a)(5) reads:  "Twelve

        19  permissible cap lamps and charging

        20  rack."  Instead of housing twelve cap

        21  lamps at a mine rescue station where

        22  they will seldom be used -- at least

        23  we hope that's the case --

                                                  96





         1  consideration should be given to

         2  allow credit for teams that have

         3  access to multiple cap lamps at a

         4  covered mine.

         5           We believe that the

         6  maintenance and the reliability of

         7  the lamps from the covered mine is

         8  better than the lamps stored for a

         9  long period of time at a rescue

        10  station.

        11           Equally so, 49.16(a)(16)

        12  reads:  "Four gas detectors

        13  appropriate for each type of gas that

        14  may be encountered at the mine

        15  served."  The same consideration

        16  should be given for accessibility of

        17  gas detection equipment when it can

        18  be proven that the required detectors

        19  are available at the covered mine.

        20           Again, we believe that the

        21  maintenance of these pieces of

        22  equipment where a mine or a mine

        23  rescue team can prove that they have

                                                  97





         1  access to ample numbers would be a

         2  good consideration for the teams.

         3           That's the end of my comments

         4  on equipment.

         5           MS. SILVEY:  Okay.  Thank

         6  you.

         7           To go back to your comments,

         8  actually, all the proposal did was

         9  change the one extra bottle in the

        10  existing regulation to two extra

        11  bottles.  Maybe the existing

        12  regulation could have been a little

        13  better clarified.  It says:  "One

        14  extra fully charged oxygen bottle for

        15  every six breathing apparatuses."  We

        16  made it two extra bottles for every

        17  six breathing apparatuses.  So that

        18  really meant two extra for six.

        19           MR. BYRAM:  For a total of

        20  eight bottles.

        21           MS. SILVEY:  No.  For a total

        22  of four bottles per station.  Two for

        23  every six.

                                                  98





         1           MR. BYRAM:  For each team,

         2  yes, ma'am.

         3           MS. SILVEY:  Right.  You

         4  follow?  That was -- just so

         5  everybody understands, that was the

         6  intent of the regulation.  All we did

         7  was substitute "two" for "one."

         8           The existing rule right now

         9  is one for every six.  So you would

        10  have to have two, a total of two at

        11  the station.  So, instead of having

        12  two, you would have to have four.

        13           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, ma'am.

        14           MS. SILVEY:  Okay.  Just so

        15  you know.  I understand what you

        16  said; but, just so everybody

        17  understands, that's what we meant.

        18           Now, your next comment on

        19  mine rescue stations and the proper

        20  storage -- I hate saying this.  This

        21  is the legalistic part that I don't

        22  like saying.  That's an existing

        23  regulation.  We didn't propose any

                                                  99





         1  change in that one.

         2           So, theoretically, at this

         3  point, what I'm supposed to say is:

         4  That's beyond the scope of the rule

         5  making.  I understand what you're

         6  saying, but we didn't propose any

         7  change to that one.

         8           The next one, on the gas

         9  detectors, you were saying -- we did

        10  propose a change to that one; but

        11  your comment is going to where the

        12  gas detector is to be stored, as

        13  opposed to making a comment on the

        14  type of gas detector that we

        15  required.

        16           I have a comment I want to

        17  ask you; and that is:  At your mine

        18  rescue station, do you all use

        19  multi-gas detectors?

        20           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, ma'am.

        21           MS. SILVEY:  That measure the

        22  specific percentages that we included

        23  in the proposal?

                                                 100





         1           MR. BYRAM:  We have those on

         2  order, but it doesn't do that at this

         3  point in time.

         4           MS. SILVEY:  Oh, yours don't

         5  have it right now.

         6           MR. BYRAM:  We have them at

         7  the mine site, though.

         8           MS. SILVEY:  Yes.  But you

         9  have them on order for the stations?

        10           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, ma'am.

        11           MS. SILVEY:  Right.  Okay.

        12           I think we got enough comment

        13  in the record, I believe, on costs

        14  for these detectors.

        15           If you all -- as you just

        16  said, you all have the mult-gas

        17  detectors.

        18           I don't know if there are any

        19  metal/non-metal operators here or

        20  not.  I did want to ask, if there

        21  were any, a couple of questions on

        22  that issue from the metal/non-metal

        23  operators; but I'll get to that.

                                                 101





         1           MR. BYRAM:  One of the things

         2  that we anticipate is that with the

         3  new regulations and sampling

         4  requirements, you will see these

         5  detectors now available.

         6           MS. SILVEY:  Right.  Yeah, we

         7  heard that, too.

         8           I do have a question, though,

         9  because I heard some information at

        10  another public hearing on the oxygen

        11  resuscitators.  As you all know, we

        12  didn't require that; but we raised

        13  that issue in the preamble, that this

        14  light-weight resuscitator is now

        15  available from at least one

        16  manufacturer.

        17           I want to ask you, Mr. Byram:

        18  Does Alabama have any specific

        19  requirement relative to the use of

        20  oxygen resuscitators in an emergency

        21  situation?

        22           MR. BYRAM:  They do, as far

        23  as the Emergency Medical Services

                                                 102





         1  Systems.

         2           What I would recommend is

         3  that the Panel could query any

         4  State's Department of public Health

         5  Division for their requirements on

         6  oxygen.  You may see variances across

         7  the country, but it's the EMS

         8  division for the Department of Public

         9  Health; and each state would have

        10  that.

        11           For me to -- I can give you

        12  my understanding of it, but I would

        13  rather it be specific as to what the

        14  State says.

        15           MS. SILVEY:  Okay.  I agree.

        16  Yeah.

        17           MR. WILSON:  You talked about

        18  -- you suggested that credit be given

        19  -- instead of the station having gas

        20  detectors, the covered mine would

        21  have those detectors; and we would

        22  give credit for that.

        23           Isn't it possible that might

                                                 103





         1  be an issue, though, where a covered

         2  mine might have X-type gas detectors;

         3  and the team -- I'm concerned -- I

         4  would be a little concerned about

         5  whether the team would receive

         6  adequate training on those types of

         7  detectors if they were located at the

         8  covered mine versus at the station.

         9           I appreciate what you said

        10  about the maintenance at the station,

        11  and they may not be -- they might be

        12  a different type.  That's my only

        13  concern.

        14           MR. BYRAM:  I'm speaking from

        15  Jim Walter's perspective where we

        16  have in-house teams.  They're the

        17  guys from the mines that use those

        18  detectors.

        19           That's why we put the

        20  statement in "where it could be

        21  proven it would be adequate."

        22           MR. WILSON:  Okay.  That's a

        23  good point.  There are some teams in

                                                 104





         1  covered mines that are not in your

         2  situation that would encounter

         3  different types of detectors.

         4           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, sir.  I can

         5  see where -- I can see how that can

         6  be a problem for them.

         7           MR. WILSON:  That's a good

         8  comment.

         9           MS. SILVEY:  Anything

        10  further?

        11           So you understand now on the

        12  oxygen what the requirement is.

        13           Is there -- do you all see

        14  any costs related to that

        15  requirement?

        16           MR. BYRAM:  If you don't

        17  mind, I'm just going to kind of

        18  generalize some things.

        19           One is, we would go back to

        20  the State to see what level of

        21  training is required to be able to

        22  apply oxygen because in some states,

        23  oxygen is considered a drug.  You

                                                 105





         1  can't -- I would be concerned to say

         2  "Okay, everybody, get oxygen units;

         3  and put them on the patients."

         4           MS. SILVEY:  No.  I'm sorry.

         5  I'm talking about the cost of the

         6  oxygen bottles.

         7           MR. BYRAM:  Oh, the bottles?

         8           MS. SILVEY:  Yes.

         9           MR. BYRAM:  That shouldn't be

        10  an issue for a team.

        11           If you're going to be

        12  developing a mine rescue team,

        13  there's going to be some significant

        14  dollars involved.  A couple of extra

        15  bottles is no big deal.

        16           MS. HUTCHISON:  How much do

        17  they cost?

        18           MR. BYRAM:  We have some

        19  vendors here that sell them.  They

        20  would be the ones that could give you

        21  that specific price.

        22           You're looking somewhere --

        23  if you started a brand new team, you

                                                 106





         1  would be looking at $350,000 plus, if

         2  you did 12 apparatuses, bottles, RZ

         3  detectors, and everything.

         4           MR. WILSON:  Including the

         5  training?

         6           MR. BYRAM:  No.

         7           MR. WILSON:  And not

         8  personnel costs?

         9           MR. BYRAM:  No.

        10           MR. WILSON:  You're talking

        11  about building and storage?

        12           MR. BYRAM:  If you look at

        13  the average mine -- well, again, I

        14  don't want to get into vendors areas.

        15           The type of apparatus that we

        16  use, you're looking at about $9,000

        17  something per unit.  Then you have

        18  the tester, which is of significant

        19  cost.  Then you have extra parts that

        20  are a significant cost.  Then you

        21  have all the other associated costs.

        22           MR. WILSON:  So the $350,000

        23  is just the equipment; the building;

                                                 107





         1  the trailer, perhaps; whatever,

         2  roughly?

         3           MR. BYRAM:  It just depends

         4  on whatever someone would --

         5           MR. WILSON:  And training and

         6  personnel costs and annual

         7  maintenance costs are above that?

         8           MR. BYRAM:  We spend probably

         9  between -- we spend at Jim Walter

        10  Resources probably between $400,000

        11  and $450,000 a year on mine rescue.

        12           MS. SILVEY:  Let me ask you

        13  something.  In terms of your

        14  situation, do you all have a separate

        15  facility for the station?

        16           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, ma'am.

        17           MS. SILVEY:  Is it pertinent

        18  to the mine site?

        19           MR. BYRAM:  Yes, ma'am.  It's

        20  housed at our training center, which

        21  is centrally located.

        22           MS. SILVEY:  It's housed in

        23  the training center.  Okay.  Right.

                                                 108





         1  I got it.  That makes sense.

         2           MS. HUTCHISON:  That's what

         3  you spend on mine rescue after you

         4  already have the equipment and you

         5  already have the station?

         6           MR. BYRAM:  Well, you have

         7  equipment maintenance issues through

         8  the year.

         9           When you look at -- you see,

        10  in Alabama, we're not close to

        11  anything other than a few local

        12  contests.  So, if our teams compete

        13  in other additional contests, we're

        14  sending teams away for a week.

        15           Kentucky has a contest that

        16  is relatively close, but our teams

        17  end up going to Beckley.  Some of

        18  them go to St. Clairsville.  You're

        19  looking at a $3,000 to $5,000 cost

        20  per contest just for the travel

        21  associated with it.

        22           Individual companies, however

        23  their employee structure is set,

                                                 109





         1  their insurance and things like that,

         2  it all costs a certain amount per day

         3  per person.

         4           I think Jim Walter does more

         5  training by far than the minimum

         6  requirement.

         7           MS. SILVEY:  I understand.

         8  Okay.

         9           MR. PHAN:  You said that it

        10  will cost you about $350,000 to start

        11  a team.  I think that there are

        12  some -- you just mentioned that you

        13  do above some of the requirements.

        14  So, when we do a cost estimate, we

        15  need to make sure we don't factor in

        16  the extra that you go beyond the

        17  requirement.

        18           Also, if you can, break down

        19  the 350 on how you came up with --

        20           MR. BYRAM:  What I would

        21  really rather do is -- we recommend

        22  that you would talk to the vendors.

        23  There are only a few vendors in the

                                                 110





         1  country that you can rely on to

         2  provide mine rescue equipment.

         3           That would be your most

         4  accurate way to get the costs -- just

         5  the base costs of starting mine

         6  rescue teams.

         7           MR. PHAN:  Okay.

         8           MS. SILVEY:  Anybody in the

         9  audience, also, if you have the costs

        10  associated with -- the equipment is

        11  one thing; but, if you have -- and

        12  Mr. Russell talked about that this

        13  morning in a different way; but he

        14  made the point.

        15           If you have cost associated

        16  with, for example, a facility, and

        17  then you've got separate costs --

        18  Mr. Byram just noted the training,

        19  and then you've got the annual cost

        20  to train.  If you all -- if you have

        21  your own information on that, that

        22  would be useful to provide to us.

        23           MR. BYRAM:  This will vary

                                                 111





         1  from state to state.

         2           MS. SILVEY:  Yes.

         3           MR. BYRAM:  Because if you

         4  live in West Virginia, you've got a

         5  lot of contests close by; and you

         6  don't have to travel.

         7           MS. SILVEY:  Right.  Anything

         8  else?

         9           Okay.  Thank you very much.

        10  We appreciate it.

        11           Now, I was going to ask:  Is

        12  there any metal and non-metal

        13  operators in the audience?

        14           (No response.)

        15           MS. SILVEY:  Any operators of

        16  underground metal or non-metal mines?

        17           (No response.)

        18           MS. SILVEY:  Is there anybody

        19  else who wishes to make a comment?

        20           (No response.)

        21           MS. SILVEY:  If nobody else

        22  wishes to make a comment, then I want

        23  to say, again, that we appreciate

                                                 112





         1  your coming here today.  We

         2  appreciate the testimony that we got.

         3  We appreciate the people who came and

         4  attended the hearing and have an

         5  interest in the rule making.

         6           We will take your comments

         7  and testimony and try to develop a

         8  final rule that updates the equipment

         9  and provides for at least the best

        10  most appropriate mine rescue

        11  equipment technology that is

        12  available so that the mine rescue

        13  teams can be protected as best as

        14  possible.

        15           I will therefore conclude

        16  this hearing at this time.  I will

        17  let the record show that the Panel

        18  will be here at 2:00 o'clock in case

        19  persons come who have not been here

        20  before and intend to provide

        21  testimony at 2:00 o'clock.

        22           At this time this hearing is

        23  concluded.

                                                 113





         1           (Lunch recess.)

         2           MS. SILVEY:  We will now

         3  reconvene the Mine Safety and Health

         4  Administration's Public Hearing on

         5  the Agency's Mine Rescue Team

         6  Equipment Proposal.

         7           There not being any persons

         8  in the audience at this time who wish

         9  to speak, I will now conclude the

        10  Mine Safety and Health

        11  Administration's Public Hearing on

        12  the Mine Rescue Team Equipment

        13  Proposal.  The hearing is now

        14  concluded.

        15           (Whereupon, the hearing

        16  concluded at 2:15 p.m. on Thursday,

        17  November 1, 2007.)

        18

        19

        20

        21

        22

        23

                                                        114





          1             CERTIFICATE

          2  STATE OF ALABAMA    )

          3

          4  COUNTY OF JEFFERSON )

          5

          6         I hereby certify that the above and

          7   foregoing deposition was taken down by me

          8   in stenotype and the questions and answers

          9   thereto were transcribed by means of

         10   computer-aided transcription, and that the

         11   foregoing represents a true and correct

         12   transcript of the testimony given by and

         13   witness upon said hearing.

         14         I further certify that I am neither

         15   of counsel, nor kin to the parties to the

         16   action, nor am I in anyway interested in

         17   the result of said cause named in said

         18   caption.

         19

         20                 Susan Bell, Commissioner

         21                 Certified Court Reporter

         22                 ACCR#14-Expires:  9/30/08

         23                 Commission Expires:  10/10