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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: 2 Apr 1998 04:41:22 GMT
From: babic at physics.uq.oz.au (Boris Babic)
Message-ID: <6fv4ti$7m2$1 at nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
Organization: Department of Physics, The University of Queensland
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Subject: RA-DEC from DSS headers
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Hi 
 I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to calculate an objects RA and 
 DEC from the plate solution co-eff's as given in the DSS fits headers.
 with the skyview headers its possible to calculate the positons given
 CRVAL1,CRVAL2 ,CDELT2,CDELT1 and the NAXIS1,NAXIS2 values ,although it
 doesnt appear that simple with the DSS headers. Note: Skyview returns
 the DSS headers if the field is small,so in this case i cant work out the
 RA-DEC either.
 thanks boris



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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 12:03:49 -0500
From: Vincent Kargatis <kargatis at jackaldog.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <3523C4F5.41C6 at jackaldog.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center -- Greenbelt, Maryland USA
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Subject: [!] Web Tools for Astronomical Catalog Viewing
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New Web-based Archive Tools at the ADF

Richard A. White, Cynthia Cheung (NASA GSFC)
Kirk Borne,  Ed Shaya, Jim Blackwell, Vincent Kargatis (Raytheon STX)
Jeff de La Beaujardiere (UMBC)

The Astrophysics Data Facility (ADF) at NASA Goddard Space Flight
Center has introduced a new series of World Wide Web based tools for
browsing and manipulating the Astronomical Data Center (ADC) archives
and using the results to query other data centers for information.
These developments serve both to modernize access to the ADC and to
come into compliance with Astrobrowse, the communication protocols
being established for astronomical data centers.

These Web based tools are:

1) VIEWER - a fast and simple way to view ADC catalogs and create
subset tables based on user selected data ranges.

2) CATSEYE - creates plots of table data and allows interactive query
for information on individual plotted data points.

3) IMPReSS - searches a database for observations made by NASA
missions that are within user selected regions of the sky, plots the
perimeters of these observations on a sky map, and queries the archive
sites for the data and browse data.  IMPReSS may also be used
independently with user supplied coordinates or object names (which
are resolved into coordinates through hidden queries to NED and
SIMBAD).

To reach all these web tools and for more about future developments,
see the web page located at:
  http://adf.gsfc.nasa.gov/adf/visualization/

Full descriptions:

  VIEWER

The VIEWER can be accessed in several ways at the ADC home site.  It
begins either with its own catalog selection page or through the
ReadMe page of any ADC catalogs or journal table holding selected
through the standard ADC pages.  Each catalog in the ADC is composed
of one or more tables and the user is prompted to select from amongst
these.  Then, detailed information on each column composing that
table, is presented, including the range limits (for numerical
fields).  The columns of interest can be selected and for each column
user preferred limits on the range of values can be set.  The
requested subset of the catalog is returned along with a legend that
includes information on the units and meaning of each column.

One can sort the output table by the values of a chosen column,
download the file, or rename for further use.  If the table is not
renamed, it is overwritten by subsequent tables.  User work areas are
identified by cookies that expire after 4 days.  All of the user
created tables can be plotted by another tool called CATSEYE.

  CATSEYE

CATSEYE is a tool that makes scatter plots of numerical columns from
the VIEWER output tables.  It first presents a list of all of the
tables that a user has created in the last 4 days.  The user selects
which tables should be plotted together and which columns of each
table are to be used for the x-axis and the y-axis.  Several plot
symbols are available.

Below the plot there is a table to fill in that allows one to reset
limits for the axes or to change to logarithms in either or both axes.
All plots are GIF images and may be saved locally by the user's
browser and printed.  When the mouse is used to click on a datapoint
of interest, the entry line from the appropriate table and that
table's name are displayed in a third frame.  In crowded plot regions,
more than one line from one or more tables may be displayed.  Finally,
one can click on the letter "I" (for IMPReSS) at the beginning of the
entry line to input the positional coordinates of the object to
IMPReSS.

  IMPReSS (IMage PeRimeters of Sky Surveys)

IMPReSS is a graphical interface to astronomical observing logs that
presents the user with plane of the sky outlines or silhouettes of
pointed observations obtained by space-based telescopes.  It searches
for NASA missions that have observed within the user selected region
of the sky.  It displays the aperture footprints (fields-of-view) on
the sky, overlaying multiple observations where necessary.  The search
can also be restricted by the observation date.  Once the user has
selected sets of observations of interest, IMPReSS will aid in
retrieving publicly available data by sending requests to data archive
sites for detailed information, browse images, and data files.

Although the emphasis is on obtaining targeted mission data, IMPReSS
also provides links to all-sky surveys and automates the procedure of
obtaining cutouts that cover the user's selected region.

The primary archive sites for which IMPReSS currently holds metadata
are: the National Space Sciences Data Center (NSSDC), the High Energy
Astrophysics Science Archive Research Center (HEASARC), and the Space
Telescope Science Institute (STScI).

-- 
Vincent Kargatis                Address:  Code 631
Archive Scientist, Raytheon STX           Goddard Space Flight Center
PH   301-286-6128                         Greenbelt MD 20771
FAX  301-286-1771               e-mail:   kargatis at xfiles.gsfc.nasa.gov


From owner-fitsbits  Fri Apr  3 10:34:34 1998
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 08:48:32 +0100
From: Juan Jose Garcia Adeva <gajuan at essex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <35249450.EDEB2B35 at essex.ac.uk>
Organization: JET Joint Undertaking
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Subject: FITS data format
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<<< No Message Collected >>>

From owner-fitsbits  Mon Apr  6 09:21:55 1998
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:06:08 +0100
From: Dave Strickland <dks at star.sr.bham.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3528C530.7571 at star.sr.bham.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK.
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Subject: Re: FITS data format
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Juan Jose Garcia Adeva wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I have to implement some code in C or C++ for writing and reading FITS
> files. I have the definition of the format, and I wonder if some one
> knows about some pointer to find public source code for this tasks, as I
> find it a bit hard to start from scratch. Thanks,
> 
> Juanjo

Try  http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/software/fitsio/fitsio.html
if you haven't already found out about it...

Dave


From owner-fitsbits  Thu Apr  9 09:23:24 1998
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 12:01:51 -0400
From: Doug Mink <dmink at cfa.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <352B9F6F.266971B5 at cfa.harvard.edu>
Organization: Harvard University University Information Systems
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Subject: Re: RA-DEC from DSS headers
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The WCSTools package, at

 http://tdc-www.harvard.edu/software/wcstools/

has code to decode the DSS header information.  That code has
been included in the SAOimage, SAOtng, and Skycat image browsers
for several years now.  It is in C and is fairly modular for easy
inclusion in other software.  WCSTools includes programs to
convert lists of (x,y) coordinates to RA and Dec (J2000 or B1950)
and vice versa.

-Doug Mink


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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 07:26:03 GMT
From: caviegr2 at boat.bt.removethis.com (Gary)
Message-ID: <352b2636.3483419 at news.axion.bt.co.uk>
Organization: BT
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Subject: fitsio package
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Hi all,

I downloaded the fitsio package from the heasarc site, but cannot get
anything to compile, not even the cookbook program. I'm running
Borland C++ v4 under Windows 95, and would appreciate any tips as to
what I'm doing wrong. 

TIA

Gary


From owner-fitsbits  Thu Apr  9 11:52:26 1998
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:49:13 -0400
From: pence at tetra.gsfc.nasa.gov (William Pence)
Message-Id: <199804091549.LAA08667 at tetra.gsfc.nasa.gov>
To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Re: fitsio package
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Gary,

The 'makepc.bat' batch file was designed to build CFITSIO with Borland C++.
If this fails send me a listing of the error messages.

-Bill Pence 

> Hi all,
> 
> I downloaded the fitsio package from the heasarc site, but cannot get
> anything to compile, not even the cookbook program. I'm running
> Borland C++ v4 under Windows 95, and would appreciate any tips as to
> what I'm doing wrong. 
> 
> TIA
> 
> Gary
> 
> 



From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Wed Apr 15 11:08:57 1998
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From: Richard White <rwhite at nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-Id: <199804151424.KAA17054 at nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Draft of FITS standard revision 1.2 available for comment
To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu, iaufwg at nrao.edu, vlbi at nrao.edu, comm5 at nrao.edu,
        aips2 at nrao.edu, bananas at marmoset.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:24:31 -0400 (EDT)
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PLEASE REDISTRIBUTE WIDELY



Call for comments on Revised FITS Standard


The NASA/Science Office of Standards and Tecnology (NOST) Draft Standard
100-1.2, Definition of the Flexible Image Transport System (FITS), is now
available for review and comment. This is a major revision to the previous version 1.1 of the FITS standard that was adopted in 1995.  This Standard is being
developed by a NOST-sponsored Technical Panel.

FITS Technical Panel
Robert J. Hanisch, Chair			STScI
Barry M Schlesinger, Secretary			NASA/FITS Support Office
Allen Farris					STScI
Eric W. Greisen					NRAO
William D. Pence				NASA/GSFC
Peter J. Teuben					UMd
Randall W. Thompson				STScI/CSC(formerly at GSFC/IUE)
Archibald Warnock				A/WWW Enterprises

The purpose of distributing this Draft Revision to the NOST FITS Standard is to
provide for community review and comment.  The Technical Panel will review and
respond to all comments.  The Panel will either incorporate the substance of a
comment into the Standard, or it will instead provide the reasons for not doing
so and describe any revision to the Standard motivated by the comment.  After
the panel has completed review of and responded to all comments, the final
version will be submitted to NOST for certification.  Upon certification, the
final version number will be 2.0.  It will then be submitted to IAU Commission 5
for formal acceptance as the IAU standard.

Copies of the standard are available in two ways: paper copies and access to
electronic copies via the WWW.  Electronic copies are available formatted for
LaTeX, PostScript, gziped Postscript and html.  The electronic versions are
posted on the FITS Support Office web site homepage at
http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/

Paper versions may be requested from the National Space Science Data Center
Coordinated Request and User Support Office (CRUSO) at

Coordinated Request User Support Office (CRUSO)
Code 633,
National Space Science Data Center
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
Greenbelt, Maryland 20771, USA

E-mail: request at nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov
Telephone: (301) 286-6695
FAX: (301) 286-1635

All comments should be mailed to the fitsbits exploder at
fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu, or posted to the newsgroup sci.astro.fits. 
Dr. William Pence, a member of the technical panel,
will oversee the reading, discussion, and panel response to all comments.
There will be an approximately 3 month period for comments.  All comments
should be submitted by July 15, 1998.

The development of the standard and its certification is supported by the FITS
Support Office in the Astrophysics Data Facility at NASA's Goddard Space
Flight Center.

FITS Support Office
Code 631
NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center
Greenbelt, MD 20771
USA

e-mail:	fits at fits.gsfc.nasa.gov
http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/
+1-301-286-6695 


List of Significant Changes Between Versions 1.1 and 1.2 (Draft) of the NOST
FITS Standard

Section            Description of Changes
-------    ---------------------------------------------

 3:       Definitions have been added, deleted, or revised:
           Added: ASCII NULL, DAT, Fraction, Heap, IAUFWG,
                      Mantissa, Primary HDU, Repeat count
           Deleted:   AIPS, CfA, ESO, NOAO, NRAO, STScI
           Revised:   Entry, Floating point, Indexed keyword

 4.6:     New section describing Physical Blocking.  Incorporates some text
          previously contained in Appendix B.

 5.1.2.2: Explicitly states that null-valued keywords are allowed.

 5.1.2.3: Keyword comment, if present, must be preceeded by a slash.

 5.2:     References to ANSI FORTRAN-77 have been removed and
          replaced with explicit definitions of free format values.

 5.2:     Keyword values are restricted to be a single value
          and not an array of values.

 5.2.1:   Fixed format character string values no longer need to be
          padded with blanks to be at least 8 characters long.
          (e.g., XTENSION= 'TABLE' is now a legal keyword record).

 5.2.1:   Previous requirement that reading the data values should
          not require decoding any more than the first eight
          characters of a character string value of a keyword has
          been dropped.

 5.2.2:   Explicitly states that a logical value must consist
          of a single `T' or `F' character, followed only by a
          space or a slash character.

 5.2.3:   Explicitly states that an integer value must not contain
          embedded spaces and is always interpreted as a signed
          decimal value.

 5.2.4:   Explicitly states that a real floating point value must not
          contain embedded spaces. The decimal point is not required,
          so values like 12, and 1E30 are valid, but E30 is not.

 5.2.5:   Fixed format for complex integers is no longer defined.
          Free format complex integer values must be enclosed in
          parentheses separated by a comma, e.g. (14, -45).

 5.2.6:   Fixed format for complex reals is no longer defined.
          Free format complex real values must be enclosed in
          parentheses separated by a comma, e.g. (14.5, -4.5E+5).

 5.4.1.1  Explicitly states that no other keywords may intervene between
          the SIMPLE and last NAXISn keyword in the primary header.
          The SIMPLE keyword must not appear in extension headers.

 5.4.1.2  Explicitly states that no other keywords may intervene between
          the XTENSION and last NAXISn keyword in an extension.

 5.4.2    The description of the DATE and DATE-OBS keywords has been
          modified in accordance with the new Y2000 FITS agreement.

 6.3      Definition of IEEE floating point has been moved to appendix H.

 8.1      Explicitly states that no other keywords may intervene between
          the XTENSION and TFIELDS keywords in an ASCII table extension.

          The TFORM format codes must be in upper case.  Numeric values
          in ASCII tables are always decimal, and never binary, octal,
          hexadecimal, or other representation.

 8.1.5    New discussion about selecting a format appropriate to the
          data.   References to ANSI FORTRAN-77 have been removed and
          replaced with explicit definitions of how each format should
          be interpreted.

 8.2      Definition of the image extension has been added.

 8.3      Definition of binary table extension has been moved from
          Appendix A into the standard itself.   The TFORM format codes
          must be in upper case.

 8.3.4    Explicit definitions are given for the possible display formats.

Appendix A: (new) gives a formal syntax for keyword card images.

Appendix D: (new) discusses time scale issues related to the new
            DATE-OBS keyword format.

Appendix H: (new) defines IEEE floating point formats


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Types of keywords that are explicitly allowed in the new FITS standard
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

KEYWORD =                      / the value of this keyword is undefined
XTENSION= 'TABLE'              / string can be less than 8 chars long
REALVAL =                   14 / decimal point is not required for reals
COMPLEXI=            (12, -45) / complex integer value
COMPLEXR=       (12.5, 5.6E-3) / complex real value
DATE    = '2000-01-01T11:45:59.999' / new date format


Types of keywords that are explicitly disallowed in the new FITS standard
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

KEYWORD =               3.1415   Value of Pi (no slash before comment)
KEYWORD =          1,2,3,4,5,8 / arrays of values are not allowed
LOGICAL =                 TRUE / logical values must be only T or F
INTVAL  =                 0777 / must not be interpreted as octal number
INTVAL  =               124 56 / embedded spaces not allowed in integers
REALVAL =            1.34 E+11 / embedded spaces not allowed in reals
REALVAL =                  E20 / number preceeding the exponent is required




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Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:29:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cotton <bcotton at nrao.edu>
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: FITSview family update
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            Update of FITSview Family (Windows, XWindows, Macintosh)
                             April 14, 1998

   Updates of the FITSview family of FITS image viewers are now
available for FITS format astronomical images.  These viewers feature
manipulation of the display (brightness, contrast, pseudo color), zoom
and scroll, blinking images for comparison, displaying 3-D images as a
"movie", and determining the celestial position and brightness of
features in the image.  Celestial positions are determined for WCS,
DSS and IRAF CD-matrix positions.  All defined FITS data types are
supported (8, 16, 32 bit integers and 32 and 64 bit IEEE), as are
blanked pixels.  Two and three dimensional simple FITS images are
supported.  In addition, gzip compressed files may be read directly.
Extensive online documentation is included.

This release features 1) more intelligent guesses of the
range of pixel values to display for high dynamic range images, 
2) a histogram equalization option and 3) support for IRAF
CD-matrix positions.

FITSview family members
-----------------------

FITSview version 2.0 (MS Windows 95/NT)
First native Windows 95/NT release.  
Additional new Features:
- Toolbar
- Revised online help
- Improved installation procedure
- Now uses 128 colors (was 64)

FITSview version 2.0 (MS Windows 3.1)
Additional new Feature:
- Now uses 128 colors (was 64)

XFITSview version 1.2 
XFITSview runs on Unix/X-Windows systems and requires the use of
Motif.  This version is distributed as source with binaries for
selected systems. 
Additional new features:
- Improved on line help
- Now uses 128 colors (was 64)

MacFITSview version 1.4 (Apple Macintosh 68k and PPC)

Availability
-----------

   All of these are available at no cost via anonymous ftp server
fits.cv.nrao.edu:

 FITSview for Windows:
    ftp://fits.cv.nrao.edu/fits/os-support/ms-windows/fitsview
    These are distributed as self extracting installation kits, see
    ftp://fits.cv.nrao.edu/fits/os-support/ms-windows/fitsview/fitsv20.txt
    for installation details.
  for Windows 95/NT:
    ftp://fits.cv.nrao.edu/fits/os-support/ms-windows/fitsview/FV32v20.exe
  for Windows 3.x:
    ftp://fits.cv.nrao.edu/fits/os-support/ms-windows/fitsview/FV16v20.exe

 MacFITSview:
    ftp://fits.cv.nrao.edu/fits/os-support/mac-os/macfitsview
    These are distributed as BinHex encoded executables.
    Online documentation and test FITS files are  also available.
  for Power PC models:
    ftp://fits.cv.nrao.edu/fits/os-support/mac-os/macfitsview/MacFITSview.PPC.hqx
  for 68K models:
    ftp://fits.cv.nrao.edu/fits/os-support/mac-os/macfitsview/MacFITSview.68k.hqx

 XFITSview:
    ftp://fits.cv.nrao.edu/fits/os-support/unix/xfitsview/
    The source is distributed in a gzipped tar archive:
    ftp://fits.cv.nrao.edu/fits/os-support/unix/xfitsview/XFITSview1.2.tar.gz
    Selected binary executables are available, see the readme file for
    details. 

Bill Cotton


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Message-ID: <35352030.730C at jach.hawaii.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:01:36 -1000
From: Maren Purves <m.purves at jach.hawaii.edu>
Organization: Joint Astronomy Centre, Hilo, HI
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: fitsio package - on VxWorks
References: <199804091549.LAA08667 at tetra.gsfc.nasa.gov>
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Hi all,

I'm trying to run fitsio on a VME crate running VxWorks. The test
program runs fine and with the expected (hoped for) output.

Now comes the part where it doesn't anymore:
I can create a file, write some header information to it
and then the data array. When adding more header information
at some point it starts corrupting my data array. I have traced
it down to that the data array gets corrupted in the routine
that writes it. Adding more header lines neither moves nor
increases the size of the corrupted area.

Has anybody seen a similar problem?
Any idea what I might be doing wrong?

Thanks in advance,

Maren Purves,
UKIRT, Hilo, HI



From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Wed Apr 15 17:30:13 1998
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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:27:13 -0400
From: pence at tetra.gsfc.nasa.gov (William Pence)
Message-Id: <199804152127.RAA16583 at tetra.gsfc.nasa.gov>
To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu, m.purves at jach.hawaii.edu
Subject: Re: fitsio package - on VxWorks
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Maren,

Send me more details (offline from this group) about which version of
fitsio you are using and what fitsio subroutines are being called.

-Bill Pence

> I'm trying to run fitsio on a VME crate running VxWorks. The test
> program runs fine and with the expected (hoped for) output.
> 
> Now comes the part where it doesn't anymore:
> I can create a file, write some header information to it
> and then the data array. When adding more header information
> at some point it starts corrupting my data array. I have traced
> it down to that the data array gets corrupted in the routine
> that writes it. Adding more header lines neither moves nor
> increases the size of the corrupted area.

> Maren Purves,
> UKIRT, Hilo, HI



From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Thu Apr 16 11:02:26 1998
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Subject: Re: Draft of FITS standard revision 1.2 available for comment
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Dear friends of FITS,

>>>>> "R.White" == Richard White <rwhite at nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov> writes:
    R.White> The NASA/Science Office of Standards and Tecnology (NOST)
    R.White> Draft Standard 100-1.2, Definition of the Flexible Image
    R.White> Transport System (FITS), is now available for review and
    R.White> comment. This is a major revision to the previous version
    R.White> 1.1 of the FITS standard that was adopted in 1995.  ..

Acting as Chair of the IAU FITS Working Group (the body which controls
the FITS standard), I want to take this opportunity to thank NASA
Headquarters, the NASA/NOST and the FITS Support Office at NASA/GSFC
for supporting this project to produce a comprehensive, definitive
version of the FITS standards. Their demonstrated will to maintain
their support of this project for so many years in the face of budget
difficulties and organizational changes is admirable.

The FITS Technical Panel (Hanisch [Chair], Schlesinger, Farris,
Greisen, Pence, Teuben, Thompson, Warnock) which produced this
document gets my highest praise for their service to the community.
The Panel asked for my opinion on several technical issues in recent
years. During those discussions I became quite aware of the
dedication, professionalism and attention to detail which has
characterized their work.

As an example of "attention to detail", I cite the subtle wording of
the last sentence in section 5.1.2.1 (Keyword) on page 15: 'For
indexed keywords with a single index the counter shall not have
leading zeroes.' Why do they say 'with a single index'?!? Well, the
answer is that, although the indexed keywords mentioned in the
document (e.g., NAXIS2, CRPIX1) obey this traditional rule, the panel
want to leave open the possibility for double-indexed keywords to have
fixed format; such keywords are likely to be needed in a future World
Coordinate System [WCS] agreement.  So, this document is not merely
codifying existing FITS practice (the formal mission of the NASA
project), it is also establishing meta-rules which prepare the path
for the evolution of FITS.

    R.White> The purpose of distributing this Draft Revision to the
    R.White> NOST FITS Standard is to provide for community review and
    R.White> comment.  The Technical Panel will review and respond to
    R.White> all comments..
    R.White> All comments should be mailed to the fitsbits exploder at
    R.White> fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu, or posted to the newsgroup
    R.White> sci.astro.fits..

I urge the entire worldwide FITS community to review this document and
comment on it in sci.astro.fits/fitsbits. The document is destined to
become the definitive response to the question 'what are the FITS
standards?' and it is, therefore, important that the official answer
should represent a true consensus of the entire astronomy community.
Public discussion in this newsgroup/mailing-list is the best way to
create and exhibit such consensus.

    R.White> .., the final version.. will.. be submitted to IAU
    R.White> Commission 5 for formal acceptance as the IAU standard.

After NOST certifies that the work of the Panel appears to represent
consensus of the community, the document will be considered by the
three regional FITS committees. After all three have approved it by
formal votes, it will be considered by the IAU FITS Working Group. The
IAUFWG has the authority, under a resolution of the IAU General
Assembly, to declare the document (by a formal vote) to be the
official version of the FITS standards, superceding the various papers
which have been published in Astronomy and Astrophysics Supplements
over the past 17 years.  I intend to argue that a version of this
document should also be published in an issue of A&A Supplements,
because it is critical to our long-term archiving strategy that the
documentation of our bitstreams should be available in archival
professional journals which will survive at least as long as our
bitstreams will survive.

-Don
-- 
  Donald C. Wells         Associate Scientist         dwells at nrao.edu
		    http://www.cv.nrao.edu/~dwells
  National Radio Astronomy Observatory                +1-804-296-0277
  520 Edgemont Road,   Charlottesville, Virginia       22903-2475 USA


From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Thu Apr 16 14:41:23 1998
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Message-ID: <35364A2B.617 at jach.hawaii.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:12:59 -1000
From: Maren Purves <m.purves at jach.hawaii.edu>
Organization: Joint Astronomy Centre, Hilo, HI
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Subject: fitsio on VxWorks - solved
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Dear all,

as I had a number of very helpful people sending me email without
copying them to the list, Bill Pence solved my problem by suggesting
we upgrade fitsio (we were running 1.2). I got the new version of 
fitsio, made the usual VxWorks modifications, and it works now.

Usual VxWorks modifications:
The problems with VxWorks are:
- there is no Fortran that I know of (so all Fortran files and
references have to be removed, otherwise gmake falls over)
- there are no main() routines (so one either has to rename them or
to move them out of the way too)

This is on a Heurikon Nitro 60 board in a VME crate, with the
operating system being VxWorks 5.3.1/Tornado 1.0.1, cross compiled
on a Sun clone (running Solaris 2.5), writing FITS files to a NFS
mounted disk.

Thanks to everybody, expecially Bill Pence,


Maren Purves



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From: jcm at urania.harvard.edu (Jonathan McDowell)
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
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The new FITS standard draft seems pretty reasonable. I may not have been
paying attention to the Y2K discussion enough, but I am puzzled by the
statement in 5.4.2.1 that UTC shall be used for the DATE keyword
'for all data sets created 
on earth'. Is it felt that there are practical difficulties in realizing
UTC for computers not on earth? This seems unlikely to the accuracy
required by the DATE keyword; it is also not a frivolous question;
there are enough laptops flying on Shuttle and Mir missions which might
in principle store their data in FITS. I suggest removing the 'on earth'
qualification (or replacing it by 'in the solar system', since I can
see there might be simultaneity issues for interstellar probes...)

  - Jonathan McDowell



From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Thu Apr 16 17:22:36 1998
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From: arots at xebec.harvard.edu (Arnold Rots)
Message-Id: <199804162107.RAA01133 at xebec>
Subject: Re: FITS standard
In-Reply-To: <199804161933.PAA01740 at urania> from Jonathan McDowell at "Apr 16, 98 03:33:03 pm"
To: jcm at urania.harvard.edu (Jonathan McDowell)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:07:10 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
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Jonathan McDowell wrote:
> 
> The new FITS standard draft seems pretty reasonable. I may not have been
> paying attention to the Y2K discussion enough,

You got that right! ;-)

> but I am puzzled by the
> statement in 5.4.2.1 that UTC shall be used for the DATE keyword
> 'for all data sets created 
> on earth'. Is it felt that there are practical difficulties in realizing
> UTC for computers not on earth? This seems unlikely to the accuracy
> required by the DATE keyword; it is also not a frivolous question;
> there are enough laptops flying on Shuttle and Mir missions which might
> in principle store their data in FITS. I suggest removing the 'on earth'
> qualification (or replacing it by 'in the solar system', since I can
> see there might be simultaneity issues for interstellar probes...)

You took the two easy examples: low earth orbit and outside the solar
system.  As you probably have guessed, the 'for all data sets created 
on earth' was added later.  It was argued (correctly, I believe) that
on the earth's surface, UTC is well defined and useful, but even on a
nearby planet like Mars it is not clear that UTC would be the system
of choice - TDB might be better.

What you see is the text as adopted by the IAU FWG displaying a
traditional FITS solution strategy: The convention is specific where
we know that it is sensible to do so.  In all other situations you are
free to follow the same convention if that works well; if not, then at
least we didn't paint ourselves into a corner - you can use something
that makes sense, as long as you document it in the comment field.

  - Arnold Rots

> 
>   - Jonathan McDowell
> 
> 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arnold H. Rots                                         AXAF Science Center
Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory                tel:  +1 617 496 7701
60 Garden Street, MS 81                              fax:  +1 617 495 7356
Cambridge, MA 02138                             arots at head-cfa.harvard.edu
USA                                     http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~arots/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------



From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Fri Apr 17 11:28:43 1998
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:26:43 -0400 (EDT)
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From: Don Wells <dwells at nrao.edu>
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Subject: OBJECT names (was Re: Draft of FITS standard revision 1.2..)
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Dear NOST Technical Panel (and FITS community),

I recommend that some additional text be appended to the single
sentence associated with the 'OBJECT Keyword' entry on page 23 in
Section 5.4.2.2 (Keywords Describing Observations).

This text should recommend that new software implementations which
read and write FITS files should support OBJECT strings with lengths
of at least 26 characters, and preferably 32 (maybe 36?) characters.

The text should also recommend that data systems which originate
OBJECT strings (e.g., telescope/instrument data systems) encourage
observers to use strings which conform to the recommendations of the
Designations Task Group of IAU Commission 5 (Astronomical Data). The
text should cite "IAU Recommendations for Nomenclature"
<http://cdsweb.u-strasbg.fr/iau-spec.html>.

-Don Wells

	  -=-=- Background information on the problem -=-=-

1) Archivists at the Data Centers routinely encounter ambiguous
designations, which are due in part to the habit among astronomers of
truncating existing designations. It is likely that often designations
are truncated in order to fit into the 8-character effective limit to
FITS "OBJECT" strings. The decision by the NOST Technical Panel that
in Section 5.2.1 (page 16) they should drop the '..previous
requirement that reading the data values should not require decoding
any more than the first eight characters of a character string
value..' will make it possible to eliminate the FITS excuse for
truncating designations.

2) Astronomers are using source surveys across many different
wavelength regimes so the need for the acronym part of the designation
is becoming essential and thus 8 characters is insufficient to
uniquely identify sources whose designation involves coordinates.

3) Astronomers who generate surveys and catalogs are now voluntarily
submitting their acronyms to the IAU designations registry and thus
having their designations screened by the Designations TG for
non-conformity before publication. There is a growing recognition that
this process eliminates a significant source of ambiguity and
confusion in the literature and archives.

		-=-=- OBJECT length requirements -=-=-

The IAU Acronym Registry <http://vizier.u-strasbg.fr/cgi-bin/Dic>
already contains a registered entry for the Sloan Digital Sky Survey
which needs 24 characters, and at least two additional suffix
characters should be allowed for ambiguity resolution and slightly
longer acronyms. This is the basis for the recommendation of 26
character minimum length for software implementations of OBJECT.
Probably it will be prudent to support 32- or maybe even 36-character
OBJECT lengths in new datasystems. Examples:

    0        1         2         3
    123456789012345678901234567890123456  Length
    ------------------------------------
    UCAC 39100201                           13
    NGC 598:HBW 1282                        16
    ICRF JHHMMSS.s+DDMMSS                   21
    FIRST J094044.5+363328                  22 (already in the literature)
    SDSS J125740.44+333827.9                24 (longest current real case)
    Lynds 1427:JHSMS JHHMMSS.ss+DDMMSS.s    36 (extreme hypothetical case)


From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Sun Apr 19 21:11:52 1998
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:12:29 -0400
From: William Thompson <William.T.Thompson.1 at gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <3537E1DD.9EEE9547 at gsfc.nasa.gov>
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center -- Greenbelt, Maryland USA
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Subject: Re: Draft of FITS standard revision 1.2 available for comment
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Don Wells wrote:

> Dear friends of FITS,
>
> >>>>> "R.White" == Richard White <rwhite at nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov> writes:
>     R.White> The NASA/Science Office of Standards and Tecnology (NOST)
>     R.White> Draft Standard 100-1.2, Definition of the Flexible Image
>     R.White> Transport System (FITS), is now available for review and
>     R.White> comment. This is a major revision to the previous version
>     R.White> 1.1 of the FITS standard that was adopted in 1995.  ..
>

I no longer have access to the original message.  Where is the draft
standard?  I went to the NOST page, and couldn't find it.

Bill Thompson




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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:26:21 -0400
From: William Thompson <William.T.Thompson.1 at gsfc.nasa.gov>
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Jonathan McDowell wrote:

> The new FITS standard draft seems pretty reasonable. I may not have been
> paying attention to the Y2K discussion enough, but I am puzzled by the
> statement in 5.4.2.1 that UTC shall be used for the DATE keyword
> 'for all data sets created
> on earth'. Is it felt that there are practical difficulties in realizing
> UTC for computers not on earth? This seems unlikely to the accuracy
> required by the DATE keyword; it is also not a frivolous question;
> there are enough laptops flying on Shuttle and Mir missions which might
> in principle store their data in FITS. I suggest removing the 'on earth'
> qualification (or replacing it by 'in the solar system', since I can
> see there might be simultaneity issues for interstellar probes...)
>
>   - Jonathan McDowell

I'm a little confused by the phrase "accuracy required by the DATE
keyword".  My understanding of the Y2K proposal is that it does not impose
any limitations on the accuracy of date/time values, other than the
limitation imposed by the 80 character limit of a header line.

That said, I agree with Jonathan that limiting the use of UTC to the Earth
is a little odd.  I work with the SOHO satellite, which is ~5 light seconds
out from the Earth, and we have no trouble relating the times of
observations to UTC.  Obviously, one needs to be aware that different
observers will observe the same phenomena at different times, because of
the speed of light, but that's true for Earth-based observers as well at
the millisecond level.

Perhaps the writers wanted to leave open the possibility that times might
be converted to light arrival times at the solar system barycenter, or some
other such scheme?

Bill Thompson



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Date: 19 Apr 1998 23:53:23 -0700
From: sla at ucolick.borg (Steve Allen)
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In article <3537E51D.AD7C4BF8 at gsfc.nasa.gov>,
William Thompson  <William.T.Thompson.1 at gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>That said, I agree with Jonathan that limiting the use of UTC to the Earth
>is a little odd.  I work with the SOHO satellite, which is ~5 light seconds
>out from the Earth, and we have no trouble relating the times of
>observations to UTC.

Unless I am misinterpreting, the entire argument of this posting is
relating to the 'DATE-OBS' keyword, whereas the "on earth" clause
pertains to the 'DATE    ' keyword.

>Perhaps the writers wanted to leave open the possibility that times might
>be converted to light arrival times at the solar system barycenter, or some
>other such scheme?

See in the appendix to the Y2K agreement that this is explicitly the
case for the 'DATE-OBS' keyword, but not for the 'DATE    ' keyword.
-- 
Steve Allen          UCO/Lick Observatory       Santa Cruz, CA 95064
sla at ucolick.borg     Voice: +1 408 459 3046     FAX (don't): +1 408 454 9863
WWW: http://www.ucolick.borg/~sla               PGP public keys:  see WWW
Junk mail is irrelevant -- my return address has been assimilated.


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In article <199804161933.PAA01740 at urania>,
Jonathan McDowell <jcm at urania.harvard.edu> wrote:
>paying attention to the Y2K discussion enough, but I am puzzled by the
>statement in 5.4.2.1 that UTC shall be used for the DATE keyword
>'for all data sets created
>on earth'. Is it felt that there are practical difficulties in realizing
>UTC for computers not on earth? This seems unlikely to the accuracy
>required by the DATE keyword; it is also not a frivolous question;
>there are enough laptops flying on Shuttle and Mir missions which might
>in principle store their data in FITS. I suggest removing the 'on earth'
>qualification (or replacing it by 'in the solar system', since I can
>see there might be simultaneity issues for interstellar probes...)

Note that the "on earth" clause under discussion pertains to the 'DATE    '
keyword, not the 'DATE-OBS' keyword.  The 'DATE    ' keyword is the
time of creation of the FITS HDU, not the time at which the data were
obtained.

At the time of the insertion of this clause the Y2K agreement had
already left the cabal of Rots, Wells, and myself, passed thru the
WGAS vote, and was in the hands of the IAU FWG.  Although I wasn't
officially party to the evolution of the agreement at this phase, I
suspect that my suggestion was responsible for it.

My reasoning follows.  We usually presume that the equipment which
obtains the data has a clock suitable for defining a value of
'DATE-OBS' in whatever is the most convenient time scale.  However,
these data may not be stored immediately as FITS, but may be
transferred to some other computing device which casts them into
FITS.  It is the responsibility of that machine to create the 'DATE    '
keyword, and there need be no requirement that it has a clock which is
set to any particular timescale.  Furthermore, the 'DATE    '
keyword should be rewritten if the original data are reprocessed.

On earth the most available timescale may, without much loss of
generality, be presumed to be UTC.  Note that there is no prohibition
against using UTC for data sets created off earth.

It was my assertion that it was asking too much to presume that a
computer in the data processing center at Farside Lunar Observatory,
or Mars Base 1, or of a L5-based amateur who is simply playing with
the data, should have a clock which is set to UTC.  The clocks of such
non-terrestrial, non-data-acquisition computers should be permitted to
be set to whatever is the most available timescale.  In general, I do
not think that likely to be UTC.

I do not see any significant compromise in permitting the use of other
timescales for 'DATE '.  Indeed, my suggestion to members of the IAU
FWG indicated that I felt that, without this clause, such
non-terrestrial FITS creators would simply curse the Y2K amendment,
and then proceed to disregard it.  With this clause in place, the Y2K
agreement should be able to withstand all solar system use.
(Interstellar applications will beg the question of the use of the
earth-based Gregorian calendar, but that is a matter for a future FITS
working group ;-)
-- 
Steve Allen          UCO/Lick Observatory       Santa Cruz, CA 95064
sla at ucolick.borg     Voice: +1 408 459 3046     FAX (don't): +1 408 454 9863
WWW: http://www.ucolick.borg/~sla               PGP public keys:  see WWW
Junk mail is irrelevant -- my return address has been assimilated.


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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:30:58 +0100 (BST)
From: Clive Page <cgp at leicester.ac.uk>
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Subject: Comment on draft FITS standard revision 1.2
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The FITS Technical Panel is to be congratulated on drafting a new version
of the Standard.  I have, however, a few suggestions for clarifications, 
and one more substantive suggestion at the end.


1. Section 5.3 Units - how to specify physical units in headers?

This section implies that FITS header keywords may have physical units,
but does not give any indication of how this is to be done.  This issue
has been debated a number of times, and the pragmatic solution agreed at
the last HEADCC meeting is now implemented in FITSIO: the units may be put
in square brackets at the start of the comment field of any header line.
Since this convention is now beginning to be used widely, I think it ought
to be mentioned somewhere.  This could be a new section in Appendix B, with
suitable references from sections 5.1.2.3 and 5.3.


2. Section 5.3 Units - do columns have to use degrees not radians?

When it says "degrees are the required units for celestial coordinate
systems" it is not clear to me whether this applies only to header keywords
such as those using the WCS, or is intended to be more general than that,
e.g. applying also to columns in tables.   I note that the sections on
units in ASCII and binary tables (8.1.2 and 8.3.2) refer to section 5.3.

If the more general interpretation is implied, I would like to disagree
with the implication that degrees and not radians are to required for
angular quantities in FITS tables.  FITS headers were designed to be 
legible to humans, and in this case degrees may well be a better choice of
unit, but the same does apply to columns in tables especially binary
tables, which always have to be processed by machines.  In my opinion
radians are the better choice in such cases: the radian is the SI unit of
angle, and it is also the unit used for trig functions in languages such as
C and Fortran.   Tables containing degrees nearly always have to be
converted to radians before use: this uses unnecessary cpu cycles, and may
lose accuracy.


3. Section 8.3.2, table 8.6.

Iw should be Iw.m to be consistent with section 8.3.4.


4. Section 8.3.2, table 8.6.

The specification "integers only" for B/O/Z formats does not make it clear
whether these formats may also be used for bit (X) and byte (B) data types.
Most reasonable interpretations would assume so, but this would be better
made explicit.

I think it would also be useful to have a note in the table caption that
the ".m" and "Ee" sections of each format are optional.  This is specified
in detail in section 8.3.4 but you have to read the dense prose rather
carefully to see that this is so.


5. Section 8.3.3.1 - Logical

When it says "A zero byte indicates an invalid value" it may not be
absolutely clear whether this means hexadecimal zero or the character "0",
although I think that the former is intended. The qualifier "hexadecimal"
is used in similar contexts elsewhere, and it would be clearer to see it
used here.


6. Section 8.3.4 Data Display - Integer data

I think it should explicitly say that integer, bit, and byte data may use
format codes Iw.m etc.

This section also leaves unclear what is required for complex data (types C
and M), though I assume that a single instance of any of the formats usable
for real data will suffice.

7. A Suggestion for support for sexagesimal output

FITS tables, especially binary tables, are often used to store
lists or catalogues of celestial objects.  Large collections of them, such
as the CDS, have FITS tables as a principal export format.
Such tables invariably
include columns of Right Ascension and Declination. Astronomers seem
firmly attached to the habit, established in Babylonian times, of showing
such coordinates in sexagesimal notation: hours-minutes-seconds for RA,
and degrees-arcminutes-arcseconds for DEC.  Unfortunately there is no way
of specifying that a sexagesimal display format should be used when RA or DEC
values are present in FITS tables.  

I note, however, that the TDISP indexed keyword merely specifies the
"recommended" display format for each column, so the introduction of
additional TDISP format codes should not cause problems with existing
software, which could simply ignore them (as do some current systems when
faced with EN or ES formats). I would like to suggest  that there should
be two additional TDISP format codes, to be added to those in table 8.6.,
namely:

  USw.d   Unsigned sexagesimal: displays field as hh:mm:ss.s...
           
  SSw.d   Signed sexagesimal:   displays field as Sdd:mm:ss.s... 
          where S is the sign "+" or "-".

In both cases the "w" parameter specifies the overall width, "d" specifies
the number of digits after the decimal point in the seconds/arcseconds field.  
For these codes to be valid the TUNIT field would have to specify the units
within the FITS column which should be either degrees or radians, and any
display program would have to perform the appropriate, if rather trivial,
calculations to convert them to hours or degrees and sexagesimal fractions.


-- 
Clive Page,
Dept of Physics & Astronomy,        
University of Leicester.         




From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Tue Apr 21 09:39:50 1998
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:02:28 +0100
From: Peter Bunclark <psb at ast.cam.ac.uk>
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I would have thought that terran space-travellers who prefer to stay
synched to earth time,
perhaps because it suits their circadian rthyms, could stick with UTC,
probably running
ntp like the rest of us; or at lease, EXO-NTP when it comes out.  These
people can then quite
easily write their FITS tapes (have you ever tried loading a
6250-streamer in zero-G? Me neither)
using UTC.
	On the other hand, the Martian settlers may prefer to divide one Sol
into 24 hours etc etc.
Now these folk would naturally use MTC (Marsiversal Coordinated Time; 
the achronym is dyslexic
in honour of another terran language that used to be tbe lingua
franca...).  However, their
equipment is always dusty so archiving the data is about as far down the
pipeline as it goes.
	The Jovians don't matter because they're still waiting for their first
clear night, and
the Europeans just splash about under the ice all day. And night.

	And back in the real world, Voyager data can be clocked to
high-accuracy in UTC, so
what's the problem?

Peter.

Steve Allen wrote:
> >see there might be simultaneity issues for interstellar probes...)
>


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:04:31 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lucio Chiappetti <lucio at ifctr.mi.cnr.it>
To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Re: FITS standard :-)
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On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Peter Bunclark wrote:

> the Europeans just splash about under the ice all day. And night.

  :-) actually it's quite sunny down here.
  And our main concern are Euro's (the new unified currency, you know)
  [at least this side of the ChUnnel ... :-) ]




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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:10:30 -0400
From: Tom McGlynn <tam at silk.gsfc.nasa.gov>
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Subject: FITS standard--random groups and other nits.
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I've put together some comments on the new FITS standard.
Most of these are nits which I wouldn't worry about
in a less formal document.  In general it seemed a very
reasonable and useful. 

The one more serious comment is that the discussion of
random groups data is unnecessarily obscure.  I get the
impression that the writers were trying to 'hide' the existence
of this format.

		Tom McGlynn


Section 3:

I'd prefer to get rid of all of the "Abbreviation of" and just expand
the acronym.  If retained acronym would be a better word than
abbreviation.

ASCII blank -- This definition is misleading or incomplete.
  Something like "The ASCII character for blank which is represented
  by a bit pattern with the hexadecimal value 20 (decimal 32).
  
Byte -- Bytes are not strings.  Probably something like:
    In this document bytes are treated octets,
    a group of eight bits treated as a single entity.

Deprecate[d] -- Only the usage within this document should be
    referenced.  Also, I'd recommend not using words like "ought" since we
    are not in the business of knowing what the right decision is
    for a user.  Something like:
    Usages not recommended for use in future FITS files are marked
    as deprecated.  Deprecated FITS elements remain valid FITS.

FITS logical record -- Either bytes are 8 bits (see above) or not.
    If we want a more careful word we should probably use the
    word octet.
    
Floating point -- This can be misinterpreted as written.  Maybe something
    like:
    A computer representation of a real number -- typically subject to
    truncation error.
    
[HDU] -- is an acronym that will probably be strange to many users
    reading this document but is not visible where expected alphabetically.
    Something like:
       HDU --  see Header Data Unit
    might help users.
    
Heap -- Probably shouldn't restrict this usage to binary table extensions since
    future extensions could use it.
    
IEEE special values -- If this is actually a useful entry it
    should describe the meaning of all of the values included.
    I'd personally just get rid of it and reference the appendix
    where appropriate.

Section 4.

I find the way Random groups data are discussed here to be a little
confusing and I'd suggest that the FITS organization be given as something
like:

  Primary HDU
    Primary Header
    Either  Primary Data Array
	or  Random Groups Data
	or  nothing 
  0 or more extension HDUs
    Header
    Optional data
    
I have the impression that there's been a lot of work to avoid
treating Random Groups data as a special case, but I think it
makes the discussion harder to follow.   E.g., the way this is
structured we have a sentence "The primary HDU and every extension
HDU will consist of..." which leaves a reader wondering what happens
for a Random Groups structure since it's explicitly excluded from
both of those


I find figure 4.1 hard to read.  I think something that read
horizontally would be easier, or the vertical orientation would
be easier to read if left justified.  I.e., I'd prefer
  a(1,1,...,1), a(2,1,...1), ..., a(naxis1,1,...), ... a(1,2,...1), ...
         
	  
	  
4.4.2

It's not clear in this context that the unique type name
refers to the extension format, not to extensions within a
given file.  Maybe:

   For each approved format a unique identifier is given
   (see Appendix I).  This identifier is used as the value
   for the XTENSION keyword for any extension using this
   format.


Section 5.

5.4.2.5

I would think some reference to the standardization efforts underway
for world coordinate systems would be appropriate.  The latest draft should
be included in the bibliography.  I'd suggest that at least the
standard values for the CTYPEn keywords be included in an appendix.


Section 6.

6.3

I'd truncate the next to last sentence in the first paragraph as
"The full IEEE set of number forms is allowed for FITS Interchange."
The next sentence is redundant with the opening paragraph of the chapter.


Section 7.

I believe the opening paragraph is inappropriate.  Many of the modern
FITS readers handle random groups or can be modified to do so easily -- 
especially the large number of readers based on FITSIO.  I've
personally written IDL and Java FITS readers which handle random groups
data.  I imagine that AIPS handles random-groups just fine and I would be a
little surprised if IRAF cannot.  Many FITS readers cannot handle
binary tables but I don't see any statement telling people
not to use them.

A discussion of why random groups is deprecated should be based
upon merits of the various formats.

It is also incorrect that random groups format can be implemented
with standard binary tables as is strongly implied (though I'll grant not
quite stated) in this introduction.  To support something equivalent
to random groups, one needs to have something like the TDIM convention
but that is not part of the standard.


Section 8.

8.1.5

There may be a tiny broadening of the rules here which I'm
not sure is intentional.  I had thought that previously an
Ew.d field required an E for the beginning of the exponent
and a Dw.d required a D.  The new rule seems to be that they
are completely interchangeable -- which is fine but
makes the E and D formats completely redundant with the F format.


Appendix A:

What is the status of a card like:

    C2345678=1

I.e., I'm not sure that this is explicitly said to be illegal, but it
does not meet the criteria for either a comment card
or a value card (needs a space after the =).

Appendix F:

The image extension should have PCOUNT=0.


HTML

In the HTML version of the document there seems to be a jump from 5.4.1.1
to 7.1.1.1 and from 7.1.1.9 back to 5.4.1.2.  Somehow LaTex2HTML has
been confused.  Here I'm referring to the links using the next
and previous buttons.



From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Wed Apr 22 09:24:28 1998
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Date: 22 Apr 1998 00:42:11 -0700
From: sla at ucolick.borg (Steve Allen)
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Many thanks to the NOST Technical panel for putting this together.

Section 5.2.1

Now the minimum string length is no longer required to be 8 characters.
Presumably a null string is now a legal possibility, represented
AKEYWORD= ''
I've written regular expressions which correctly interpret this, but
does this need any special mention to distinguish it from a broken
attempt to encode an apostrophe?

Consider pathological cases akin to
AKEYWORD= ''    / isn't this funny?  'concatenated'' ''comments'

5.2.4 and 5.2.5 vis a vis 8.1.5

I am aware of the existing cases of FITS ASCII tables where there are
spaces embedded within integers and floating point numbers.  Does the
new prohibition against spaces within real and floating point values
imply that there are no known cases of FITS headers with embedded
spaces in the keyword values?

I know that I have constructed such things while exercising FITS
reading code, so it seems dangerous to proclaim that they need
not be handled anymore.

5.4.2.2

This is something I wish I'd caught during the wordsmithing of the Y2K
text.  The intent of the phrase
"shall be UTC for dates since 1972 and UT before" is perfectly
clear to someone who understands that the UTC epoch began
1972-01-01.  To others, however, it would be clearer if the
text were more explicit, say
"shall be UTC for dates beginning 1972-01-01 and UT before".

5.4.2.5

The definitions of DATAMAX and DATAMIN might be a little clearer if
the wording was "maximum valid physical value represented by the array"
instead of "in the array".  This would serve to emphasize that the
DATAMAX/MIN apply to the values after application of BSCALE/BZERO.
Alternatively, other language could make this equally clear.

8.3.2

TFORMn values for binary tables will all-too-soon face the need
for 64-bit integers.  The P format could be pressed into service
for this, but it would be better if the question of 64-bit integers
were addressed directly.

8.3.4

Data display of binary table data requires the FORTRAN behavior of
writing asterisks ***** when the value does not fit the field.
Is this constraint really necessary?  Can't we permit a broader
view of data than this, such as is seen in C printf?

Appendix A

I can't say thanks enough to those who worked out the BNF.  With this
it looks like Don Wells might simply write a one or two page RFC
proposing the FITS MIME types and incorporate NOST 100-1.2 by
reference.

For tidiness, page 53-54 splits the definition of decimal_number
across the page.  These definitions would be best not broken.

Appendix E, point 34

there's a typo BIMTABLE instead of BINTABLE
-- 
Steve Allen          UCO/Lick Observatory       Santa Cruz, CA 95064
sla at ucolick.borg     Voice: +1 408 459 3046     FAX (don't): +1 408 454 9863
WWW: http://www.ucolick.borg/~sla               PGP public keys:  see WWW
Junk mail is irrelevant -- my return address has been assimilated.


From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Wed Apr 22 10:08:32 1998
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:53:58 -0400 (EDT)
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From: Don Wells <dwells at nrao.edu>
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Steve Allen writes:
 > .. Appendix A
 > I can't say thanks enough to those who worked out the BNF.  With this
 > it looks like Don Wells might simply write a one or two page RFC
 > proposing the FITS MIME types and incorporate NOST 100-1.2 by
 > reference..

I do intend ask IAU-FWG to approve filing for MIME [Multipurpose
Internet Mail Extensions] content-type codes after NOST 100-1.2 is
approved by NOST and by the FITS committees.  As you suggest, the
application will probably consist of a formal Internet RFC
[Request-For-Comments], which will reference our standards document
and summarize it tersely.  This approach will be required because FITS
should get top-level codes (probably 'image/fits',
'application/fits-image', 'application/fits-table' and
'application/fits-group'), and IANA [Internet Assigned Numbers
Authority] requires a published RFC to get such codes assigned.

-Don Wells [Chair, IAU-FWG]
-- 
  Donald C. Wells         Associate Scientist         dwells at nrao.edu
		    http://www.cv.nrao.edu/~dwells
  National Radio Astronomy Observatory                +1-804-296-0277
  520 Edgemont Road,   Charlottesville, Virginia       22903-2475 USA


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Steve Allen <sla at ucolick.borg> writes:

> 5.4.2.2
>
> This is something I wish I'd caught during the wordsmithing of the Y2K
> text.  The intent of the phrase
> "shall be UTC for dates since 1972 and UT before" is perfectly
> clear to someone who understands that the UTC epoch began
> 1972-01-01.

Not so:  UTC started in 1960.  See Trans. IAU Reports, XIA, 362-364 or,
more accessibly, the table in

   ftp://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/tai-utc.dat

1972 is when they stopped using rate adjustments and introduced leap
seconds instead.


Patrick Wallace
____________________________________________________________________________
Starlink Project Manager                        Internet:  ptw at star.rl.ac.uk
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory                       Tel:    +44-1235-445372
Chilton, Didcot, Oxon OX11 0QX, UK                   Fax:    +44-1235-446667
____________________________________________________________________________



From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Fri Apr 24 21:29:49 1998
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:41:16 -0600
From: James Durbano <jdurbano at telusplanet.net>
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Organization: Big Sky Observatory
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Hello,

I was wondering if anyone here could do me a small favour?  I would like
to take a look at a more-or-less typical CCD image of one of the
following planets; Jupiter, Saturn, and/or Uranus.  In particular, I was
hoping to see if the major sateliites of these planets are also shown on
the image.  If you can help me out with this I would greatly appreciate
it!  Please send the images to my e-mail address located below.  One
last thing, if you can convert the image format from FITS to just about
any other graphic format (BMP, GIF, PCX, TIF) that would help me out a
lot too!  I hope that this isn't asking too much!  If you know of a
website that has images like this, maybe you can just give me the
address instead?

Thank-you!

James Durbano
jdurbano at telusplanet.net


From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Fri Apr 24 21:31:34 1998
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:12:40 -0700
From: "Christopher E. Spratt" <cspratt at islandnet.com>
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How does one align images to get correct co-ordinated blinking. My
images aren't eaxctly aligned. ASTRMETRICA allows me top align two
images and then blink. How does one get proper alignment in Fitsview?
I'm using a WIN 95 version.



From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Fri Apr 24 21:35:09 1998
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Organization: Istituto di Fisica Cosmica e Tecnologie Relative
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:19:26 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lucio Chiappetti <lucio at ifctr.mi.cnr.it>
Reply-To: Lucio Chiappetti <lucio at ifctr.mi.cnr.it>
To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Re: Draft of FITS standard revision 1.2 available for comment
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> All comments should be mailed to the fitsbits exploder at
> fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu, or posted to the newsgroup sci.astro.fits. 

  Here they are.

First of all I would commend the very useful work done in providing a
comprehensive and up to date view of the standard, and in particular I feel
that having it on line on the Web, in a very friendly way to consult, is
great. [I look forward to the pleasure to tell to somebody, 'look your
program is wrong, see http://.....' :-) ]

Therefore the comments are minor


General

I endorse Don Wells comment that the revised standard shall somehow be
also published on a journal (probably a supplement series).

General

deprecated feature shall be hilighted in the text (e.g. boldface, on 
standalone lines)

1.2 Scope

would it be the right time to freeze and discourage use of some of the earlier
extensions (random groups and ASCII tables) which are no longer justified ?

4.3.1

just for clarity redefine here a "card image" as an 80-byte card image.

4.3.2

in describing array storage order, a note that this is the storage order used
by Fortran would be useful.

4.5

are these special records really necessary ?


node53.html : NAXISn Keywords

"A value of zero for any of the NAXISn signifies that no data follow the
header in the HDU. If NAXIS is equal to 0, there should not be any NAXISn
keywords." 

is this not somewhat redundant and confusing, since already a NAXIS "value of
zero signifies that no data follow the header in the HDU." ?


http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/documents/nost_1.2/node56.html
http://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/documents/nost_1.2/node57.html

the description of the XTENSION Keyword should more properly appear in the
second of these pages


TELESCOPE and INSTRUME

is it worth clarifying that for space missions TELESCOPE is the spacecraft
and INSTRUME a combination of eventual optics systems and detector ?


6.3

the text is not clear about the endianness of the IEEE data, while we know
this is a critical item. A reference table in appendix about the most common
OS usages should be useful.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - IFCTR/CNR - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)      
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fuscim donca de Miragn        E tornem a sta scio' in Bregn                 
Che i fachign e i cortesagn   Magl' insema no stagn begn                    
Drizza la', compa' Tapogn                            (Rabisch, II 41, 96-99)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For more info : http://www.ifctr.mi.cnr.it/~lucio/personal.html             
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
From: Kevin Reardon <kreardon at na.astro.it>
Subject: Comments on FITS Standard 1.2
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Dear FITS committee members,

included below are my comments  and suggested corrections to the proposed
FITS standard. Overall, the committee has done an excellent job. Most of
these comments are rather trivial in nature and some may be attributable to
my misunderstanding of the FITS standards.

Section 3 :
----------
Array - "A sequence of data values, arranged in zero or more dimensions"

Array value - the definition mentions the linear transformation from array
to physical value, but I would not assume such a transformation need not be
linear (for example, the logarithmic transformation of  photographic
density to flux). True, the BSCALE and BZERO keywords can represent only
linear transformations, but that doesn't mean other transformations are not
possible.

DAT - mention that DAT is also know as 4mm tape (especially since this term
is used later in the document!). Also, why define DAT but not, for example,
Exabyte/8mm tapes?

Physical value - again, assumes all transformations are linear

Picture element - "A single location within an array" (i.e. eliminate word
image)

Record - is this the same a logical record? maybe include a "Logical record
- see Record" line.

Section 5 :
----------

5.1.1 - Syntax - header card images can also an optional values indicator
(see 5.1.2.2). The line would become "Header card images consist of a
keyword, and optional value indicator, and optional value, and an optional
comment."

5.2.1 - Character String - it seems to be permissible to use two quotes one
ofter the other ('') as a character string and one would assume this would
indicate a null value for the keyword (and in fact this simplifies the
programming of FITS readers and writers). But section 5.1.2.2 seems to
indicate the preferred way to encode a null value for a keyword is a null
field consisting entirely of spaces (so sometimes character string values
would _not_ have two quotes in the value field!). If two sucessive single
quotes are indeed acceptable, I think it should be stated clearly in this
section.

5.2.2 - Logical Variable - the heading for this section is Logical
Variable, but in other points in the document these seems to be referred to
as "Logical Constants" (e.g. the definition of the SIMPLE keyword). A
standard notation should be assumed.
If there is no free format for a logical variable, this should be clearly
stated.

5.2.3 - Integer - the definition seems to imply that numbers without
leading signs (+ or -) are not acceptable. I would think this would
invalidate many FITS headers and is contrary the common assumtion that a
number without sign is assumed to be positive (and contrary to the syntax
defined in Appendix A).
- explicity state the ASCII hex values corresponding to + and -.
- To avoid confusion, instead of "Such a representation is..." I would say
-"The integer representation described here is ..."

5.2.4 - Real Floating Point Number - "A decimal number consists of an
optional sign (+ or -) followed by a sequence of ASCII digits containing a
single decimal point ('.')" - defines signs, specifies ASCII digits and
constrains number of decimal points.
- the correct adjectival form is "fractional" - hence, the "fractional part
-of the floating point number". Technically, I guess one should also talk
-about the "integral part" of the number as well, but "integer part"
-doesn't sound nearly as bad as "fraction part".

5.4.1 - Mandatory Keywords - I would specify _where_ mandatory keywords are
required, e.g. "Mandatory keywords are required in every HDU as
described..."

BITPIX - what is the suggested value of BITPIX to use if there are no data
following the header? I think a value of zero should be acceptable in this
case, and would be consistent with the value of zero for the NAXIS and
NAXISn keywords.

NAXIS - what is an "ordinary data array"? Would it better to say the
"primary data array"?

5.4.1.2 - Conforming Extensions - it isn't clear, at least from the opening
sentence, when these keywords are considered mandatory. I would rephrase
the opening to: "When the HDU contains an optional extension, it shall also
be mandatory to include the following keywords in the primary header and
extension header."

5.4.2.1
ORIGIN - what exactly in meant by "organization"? How can an organization
physically create a FITS file? Perhaps a better wording would be
"identifying the organizational entity responsible for the creation of the
FITS file".

DATE-OBS - when referring to the DATE keyword in the first sentence, refer
to the appropriate section number as well (see 5.4.2.1).
- There is one statement in the second paragraph stating that the DATE-OBS
-refers to the start of the observations. The closing paragraph qualifies
-this by stating that this assumption shall not be made for observations
-made in the 1900's. This is all fine, but these two statements should be
-made together in a single paragraph.

OBSERVER - I would recommend that it be stated that this keyword can refer
to more than one person. I would consider rephrasing the sentence to
"identifying the person or persons responsible for acquiring the data
associated with the header".

OBJECT - accept that some objects have more than one name; switch "the" to
"a" -> "a character string giving a name for the object observed".

EQUINOX - can refer to both header and data -> "the celestial coordinate
system in which positions of either or both the header and/or the data are
expressed.

CTYPEn - I would state here that "units must follow the prescriptions of
section 5.3", since this is the only keyword of this set that actually
specifies a unit.

CRVLn & CDELTn - remove the "units must follow..." phrase (implied if these
values are given in units of CTYPEn).

DATAMAX & DATAMIN - a floating point number representation can be identical
to an integer number representation, so it would make more since to say
these fields "shall always be interpreted as a floating point number."
- I would state more clearly that these values no refer to the physical
-values, perhaps with a phrasing like "the [minimum|maximum] valid physical
-value represented in the array, after transformation to physical values
-and exclusive of any special values." (e.g. BLANK, NaN?)

Appendix A -
-----------
integer_value - here the sign is said to be optional; this needs to be
reconciled with section 5.2.3
decimal_number - the syntax here seems to imply the use of the decimal
requires the inclusion of the fractional part as well, which is not in
agreement with section 5.2.4. I think the desired syntax here would be:
 [sign][integer part]['.' [fractional_part]]  <- i.e. nested brackets

Appendix D -
-----------
"see: Explanatory Supplement ... OR http://"

"Use of GPS time (19  s behind TAI) is deprecated"
Does GPS time refer to Global Positioning Satellite time? The explanation
of the acronym should be stated.
Secondly, why is it deprecated? For many amateurs or smaller observatories
this may be the easiest way to get an precise time measurement.

Again, the trivial nature of many of these corrections testifies to the
excellent job the committee has done in preparing this draft standard.

sincerely,
kevin reardon
Osservatorio Astronomico di Capodimonte
kreardon at na.astro.it
http://arthemis.na.astro.it/





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Kevid Reardon wrote:

> "Use of GPS time (19  s behind TAI) is deprecated"
> ...why is it deprecated? For many amateurs or smaller observatories
> this may be the easiest way to get an precise time measurement.

I think the deprecation refers to use of the timescale, not the method
of getting the time.

Patrick Wallace
____________________________________________________________________________
Starlink Project Manager                        Internet:  ptw at star.rl.ac.uk
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory                       Tel:    +44-1235-445372
Chilton, Didcot, Oxon OX11 0QX, UK                   Fax:    +44-1235-446667
____________________________________________________________________________



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Date: 27 Apr 1998 10:42:23 +0100
From: Clive Page <cgp at nospam.le.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: Draft of FITS standard revision 1.2 available for comment
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In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.980417173858.28733T-100000 at poseidon.ifctr.mi.cnr.it>,
Lucio Chiappetti  <lucio at ifctr.mi.cnr.it> wrote:

>would it be the right time to freeze and discourage use of some of the earlier
>extensions (random groups and ASCII tables) which are no longer justified ?

I would support this, except for the fact that ASCII tables seem to be
alive and well.  For example the CDS at Strasbourg has an unrivalled
collection of source catalogues and other tabular data.  They hold them in
some internal form, but produce FITS tables for export.  But these are
always ASCII tables.  I asked CDS staff last year why they didn't use
binary tables (because more efficient, no loss of numerical precision,
etc);  they vigorously defended the use of ASCII tables.  Unfortunately I
don't recall now all the reasons they cited - perhaps someone from the CDS
reads this group and can enlighten us?

-- 
-- 
Clive Page,
Dept of Physics & Astronomy,        
University of Leicester.         


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From: arots at xebec.harvard.edu (Arnold Rots)
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Subject: Re: Comments on FITS Standard 1.2
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980427093515.32444A-100000 at rlsaxps.bnsc.rl.ac.uk> from Patrick Wallace at "Apr 27, 98 09:41:33 am"
To: ptw at star.rl.ac.uk (Patrick Wallace)
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Patrick Wallace wrote:
> Kevid Reardon wrote:
> 
> > "Use of GPS time (19  s behind TAI) is deprecated"
> > ...why is it deprecated? For many amateurs or smaller observatories
> > this may be the easiest way to get an precise time measurement.
> 
> I think the deprecation refers to use of the timescale, not the method
> of getting the time.
> 
> Patrick Wallace

That is correct.  Most GPS applications and devices, I believe, will
convert the GPS time automatically to UTC, but internally the GPS
maintains its own time scale, different from everybody else's %-)

  - Arnold

> ____________________________________________________________________________
> Starlink Project Manager                        Internet:  ptw at star.rl.ac.uk
> Rutherford Appleton Laboratory                       Tel:    +44-1235-445372
> Chilton, Didcot, Oxon OX11 0QX, UK                   Fax:    +44-1235-446667
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> 
> 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arnold H. Rots                                         AXAF Science Center
Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory                tel:  +1 617 496 7701
60 Garden Street, MS 81                              fax:  +1 617 495 7356
Cambridge, MA 02138                             arots at head-cfa.harvard.edu
USA                                     http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~arots/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:12:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cotton <bcotton at nrao.edu>
Message-Id: <199804271812.OAA23870 at gorilla.cv.nrao.edu>
To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Comments on NOST FITS Standard 1.2
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   I would like to raise a strenuous objection to the "deprecation" of
the random groups format in the current draft NOST FITS definition
document.  I'm not sure exactly what the term "deprecated" means but
I interpret it as implying that it will be disallowed at some point
in the future.
   Random groups FITS format is used heavily by the radio
interferometry community to contain interferometer data.  A few years
ago it was thought that binary tables would replace random groups as
the primary format for interferometer data but this has not happened
and is unlikely to happen for the foreseeable future.  A format
actively used by a nontrivial fraction of the astronomical community
should not be deprecated. 

-Bill Cotton


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From: Tim Pearson <tjp at astro.caltech.edu>
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Subject: Re: Comments on NOST FITS Standard 1.2
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On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Bill Cotton wrote:

>    I would like to raise a strenuous objection to the "deprecation" of
> the random groups format in the current draft NOST FITS definition
> document.  I'm not sure exactly what the term "deprecated" means but
> I interpret it as implying that it will be disallowed at some point
> in the future.
>    Random groups FITS format is used heavily by the radio
> interferometry community to contain interferometer data.  A few years
> ago it was thought that binary tables would replace random groups as
> the primary format for interferometer data but this has not happened
> and is unlikely to happen for the foreseeable future.  A format
> actively used by a nontrivial fraction of the astronomical community
> should not be deprecated. 
> 
> -Bill Cotton

I agree with this. There are a lot of radio and optical interferometer
data stored in this format, and programs to read the format will be
required indefinitely; and while the major analysis packages (aips,
aips++) expect data in this format, programs will be written to create
data in the random groups format. So the format should not be
deprecated. It (together with a set of rules, implicit in aips, about
how the data should be organized within the random-groups file) is the
de facto interchange format for interferometry data.

- Tim Pearson




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Date: 28 Apr 1998 10:08:35 -0700
From: sla at ucolick.borg (Steve Allen)
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Subject: Deprecation of Random Groups
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Bill Cotton and Tim Pearson object to deprecation.  The text states
only that "its use for future applications has been deprecated".  This
says nothing against its use for existing applications.  Indeed, the
mere existence of section 7 appears to be acknowledgement that random
groups will always be acceptable as FITS.

Would another term with definition "should not be applied to any new
applications" be more acceptable?

-- 
Steve Allen          UCO/Lick Observatory       Santa Cruz, CA 95064
sla at ucolick.borg     Voice: +1 408 459 3046     FAX (don't): +1 408 454 9863
WWW: http://www.ucolick.borg/~sla               PGP public keys:  see WWW
Junk mail is irrelevant -- my return address has been assimilated.


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From: pence at tetra.gsfc.nasa.gov (William Pence)
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Re: Comments on NOST FITS Standard 1.2
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Just a couple clarifications regarding the deprecation of random groups:

1.  Deprecate is defined in the FITS standard as: 

    "To express earnest disapproval of.  This term is used to refer to
     obsolete structures that ought not to be used but remain valid."

This does not imply that deprecated features will be disallowed in the
future.

2.  The random groups structure was deprecated in version 1.0 of the
NOST FITS definition that was approved in June 1993.  The current draft
version 1.2 of the document that is available for public comment has
not made any changes in this regard.

-Bill Pence

>    I would like to raise a strenuous objection to the "deprecation" of
> the random groups format in the current draft NOST FITS definition
> document.  I'm not sure exactly what the term "deprecated" means but
> I interpret it as implying that it will be disallowed at some point
> in the future.  [snip]
>
> -Bill Cotton



From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Wed Apr 29 11:17:47 1998
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:29:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cotton <bcotton at nrao.edu>
Message-Id: <199804291129.HAA02554 at gorilla.cv.nrao.edu>
To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Randon Groups and NOST Document
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   Apparently, I did not make myself sufficiently clear in my
previous comment on the "deprecation" of random groups by the NOST
standard under discussion.   Random Groups format FITS files are the
principle data format of the entire radio interferometry and at least
part of the optical interferometry community.  This has been true in
the past, is true at the present and will remain true for the
forseeable future.  This being the case, it really doesn't matter
whether "deprecated" means "to be disallowed" or simply "discouraged",
it is unacceptable to apply it to a major working format.
   It is true that Random Groups was "deprecated" without objection in
a previous version of this document; at that time it was hoped that a
binary tables based format would replace the Random Groups format for
interferometer data.  Unfortunately, this changeover has not happened
and is now unlikely to happen.

   If NOST cannot properly document the usage of the entire
astronomical FITS community then it should not be permitted to define
the FITS standards. 

-Bill Cotton, National (USA) Radio Astronomy Observatory


From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Wed Apr 29 12:08:09 1998
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:05:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Stephen Walton <swalton at galileo.csun.edu>
Reply-To: Stephen Walton <swalton at galileo.csun.edu>
Subject: Re: Deprecation of Random Groups
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With regard to the draft standard's statement that random groups are
deprecated, Steve Allen comments:

> Would another term with definition "should not be applied to any new
> applications" be more acceptable?

As someone with no vested interest:  I believe that, in context, "deprecated"
means that new code which can read the old files can be written, but that new
applications should not _write_ random groups.  In the same way, several
classic Fortran-77 constructs are "deprecated" in the Fortran-90 standard. 
This means that some future standard will delete them, and that a code which
uses these constructs is not standards-conforming (and thus, potentially, the
interpretation of such code is dependent on the compiler).  Clearly AIPS 2050
will still be able to read random groups :-) .

--
Stephen Walton, Professor of Physics and Astronomy,
California State University, Northridge
stephen.walton at csun.edu



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Organization: Istituto di Fisica Cosmica e Tecnologie Relative
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:31:06 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lucio Chiappetti <lucio at ifctr.mi.cnr.it>
To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Re: Deprecation of Random Groups
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On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Stephen Walton wrote:
> With regard to the draft standard's statement that random groups are
> deprecated, Steve Allen comments:
> 
> > Would another term with definition "should not be applied to any new
> > applications" be more acceptable?

  Probably yes, specially if handled as a "recommendation".

> As someone with no vested interest:  I believe that, in context, "deprecated"
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Me too. I never used random groups nor ascii tables.
  I will never plan to use the former in X-ray astronomy (and I understood
  they were going to be replaced by binary tables in radioastronomy, but I
  have just learned that was not the case) and I believe the latter can
  also be replaced in a more compact form by binary tables (at least that is
  what I will use for any tabular material).
  
> means that new code which can read the old files can be written, but that new
> applications should not _write_ random groups.  In the same way, several

  One could perhaps state "outside of specific discipline fields where 
  actively used" ?

> classic Fortran-77 constructs are "deprecated" in the Fortran-90 standard. 
> This means that some future standard will delete them, and that a code which

  That's a different story.
  I do not regard the "deprecations" in f77->f90 as always fortunate, and
  anyhow the "once FITS forever FITS" principle does not allow cancellation.

  (Of course if one is writing a SPECIFIC reader, and not a GENERAL PURPOSE
  reader, one can always assume to be more restrictive and RECOGNISE some
  extension and just say "I do not support them")

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - IFCTR/CNR - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)      
For more info : http://www.ifctr.mi.cnr.it/~lucio/personal.html             
----------------------------------------------------------------------------




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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:54:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tim Pearson <tjp at astro.caltech.edu>
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Re: Deprecation of Random Groups
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>From the proposed standard (Section 7): "The binary table extension
... can accommodate the structure described by random groups."  I
think that the binary table extension can also accommodate the
structure described by the Primary Data Array, but we have not
"deprecated" that.

Software exists to read and write data in the random groups structure
(e.g., cfitsio), so why not let application designers decide for
themselves whether the random groups structure or a binary table is
more appropriate?  Putting data in a binary table format does not make
it immediately accessible - applications still have to be written that
understand the physical or astronomical meanings of the various
columns. This is presumably why the binary table format has not
replaced random groups in radio interferometry.

I would welcome more discussion of the relative merits of random
groups and binary tables. The only advantage of a binary table that I
can see is that generic software can - in some degreee - display,
edit, or restructure the table, but this does not particularly help in
designing a real application that needs to know the meanings assigned
to the rows and columns of the table.

Perhaps everybody would be happy with a slight change of wording, such
as: "The binary table extension can accommodate the structure
described by random groups, and offers advantages over the random
groups format, so it is recommended for new applications," rather than
"its [random groups format's] use for future applications has been
deprecated", with the implication (Section 3) that a "deprecated"
structure is "obsolete".

- Tim Pearson



From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Thu Apr 30 10:39:21 1998
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:54:55 +0800
From: Gordon <dgb at doplar.wa.astro.gov.au>
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Subject: Viewing fits files
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I am putting togther an photography project for my astronomical
society.  I got hold of some graphic inages of objects of interest from
the Digitial Sky Survey site but I cannot not find a viewer.  I would
like to view the fits images believing them to be more detailed than the
images in the gif format.  Is there anywhere on the net I get get a
simple fits viewer.    

Any advice would be appreciated.
Gordon


From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Thu Apr 30 10:43:37 1998
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:31:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cotton <bcotton at nrao.edu>
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
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Subject:  Re: Deprecation of Random Groups
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   I'd like to support Tim Pearson's proposed solution to the
"deprecation" problem:

> Perhaps everybody would be happy with a slight change of wording, such
> as: "The binary table extension can accommodate the structure
> described by random groups, and offers advantages over the random
> groups format, so it is recommended for new applications," rather than
> "its [random groups format's] use for future applications has been
> deprecated", with the implication (Section 3) that a "deprecated"
> structure is "obsolete".

   While it's true that Random Groups are in a sense a subset of
binary tables with a different header and are therefore redundant,
it's also true that Random Groups have a long history, as long as FITS
images, and are deeply entrenched in the radio interferometry
community.  As Tim points out, a FITS reader is merely a front end to
a program that understands the contents of the file.  Having a more
widely understood format (e.g. binary tables) is of little use if the
underlaying software is unable to make sensible use of the
information. Specialized software will always be necessary for
complicated data such as interferometer visibility measurements.
Software issues have gotten so politicized in recent years that the
additional burden of needing "obsolete" data formats is an undesirable
complication.  

   As an amusing historical note, binary tables were invented for the
purpose of attaching calibration data to Random Groups files.

-Bill Cotton


From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Thu Apr 30 11:52:15 1998
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:50:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Cotton <bcotton at nrao.edu>
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To: dgb at doplar.wa.astro.gov.au, fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
CC: bcotton at gorilla.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Re: Viewing fits files
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dgb at doplar.wa.astro.gov.au writes:
 > I am putting togther an photography project for my astronomical
 > society.  I got hold of some graphic inages of objects of interest from
 > the Digitial Sky Survey site but I cannot not find a viewer.  I would
 > like to view the fits images believing them to be more detailed than the
 > images in the gif format.  Is there anywhere on the net I get get a
 > simple fits viewer.    
 > 

   You don't say what operating system you're using but the FITSview
family of viewers (http://www.cv.nrao.edu/~bcotton/fitsview.html)
covers Windows, WIndows95/NT, Macintosh and Unix/X-Windows.

-Bill Cotton


From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Thu Apr 30 13:29:33 1998
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: 30 Apr 1998 16:30:42 GMT
From: hodge at bowline.stsci.edu (Phil Hodge)
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Subject: Re: Deprecation of Random Groups
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To say that random groups are "deprecated" is a value judgement,
and I agree with Bill Cotton that this is not appropriate for a
format that is in widespread use.

The IMAGE extension is another viable alternative to random groups,
isn't it?

					Phil Hodge


From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Thu Apr 30 13:29:33 1998
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:32:01 -0400
From: Doug Mink <dmink at cfa.harvard.edu>
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Subject: Re: Viewing fits files
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Gordon,
Check out http://tdc-www.harvard.edu/astro.image.html
I have a list of sources of FITS data on the Web and
programs which can read FITS.
-Doug Mink


From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Thu Apr 30 21:43:17 1998
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 08:14:31 +0800
From: Gordon <dgb at doplar.wa.astro.gov.au>
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Thanks guys for your help.

Gordon