Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                        36

would get up and pantomime different people and Prof, the way he paced, used to stick his

thumbs in his pockets and wave his fingers back and forth. He had certain characteristics

that were pretty easily recognizable and they would go through pantomimes and stuff like

that. So that was good. Well, I decided that if I was going to be the only American, I'd

better learn Hungarian, so I got a book on Hungarian and started trying to work on it, but

then they hired Dick Steele and now with two Americans, they had to switch to English and

so now the parties were in English.

AK:  Of course, he spoke English . . .

DP:  Oh yeah, they all spoke English real well, it's just that when they got together, even their

   friends were Hungarian and so it was easier to do it in Hungarian. Never gave it a thought.

AK:  But I suppose when more and more non-Hungarian speaking people came, he then had to

  decide what people were going to call him.

DP:  Yes. I'm. . .

AK:  I'm Prof and this is Profne.

Dp:  Because I can remember him explaining to me that I wouldn't be able to pronounce his



      name.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004

AK:  So tell me again about the wives policy.

37

Dp:  Well, the reason for hiring the wives and having them have the proper job, he said that they

   should never have the wife work for the husband, but have the wife work for somebody else

   and so he had his wife work for Csuli Szent-Gyorgyi and Csuli Szent-Gyorgyi `s wife

    worked for him. So that this he felt was the proper mental and political switch, so that

   people would not criticize, or if any little things happened it could be blown into mountains

    out of molehills. It worked out really very well. When I came to NASA, the Director of

   Life Sciences had a wife who got cancer and was operated on successfully, but was told

   "You've got to occupy your mind. Go back to school and get your Master's Degree, and

   why not get it in electron microscopy because you'll have access to that?"

So she came down, wanted to know if she could do it, and I said, "Wonderful." Taught her

electron microscopy and she was so good at it that I said, "From my experience in Woods

Hole, I think it would be great if you came here and you worked on projects for the director,

who's having some electron microscopy done, because then at night, when you're having

supper, you can discuss what you want to get done. It will be much more productive," and I

said.

But the way to do it, knowing from what I had learned in Woods Hole, was that she should

not work for her husband. She should work for me, and that she should observe the rules

that Szent-Gyorgyi had set up for the wives and that was that they were to be treated


exactly the same as anybody else in the lab, so that everybody in the lab would know that

they're not getting special treatment and to be told that if you make a mistake, you will get

yelled at exactly the same as anybody else, and the director's wife told me, "Yes, thank you.

That's exactly what I want. You now made me feel welcome."

AK:  A wise policy.

Dp:  Yes, it was. It was amazing the amount of spin offs and things that I got from working for

    him.

AK:  Now, as you and I are sitting here at your table in Sunnyvale, to my right is a . . .

Dp:  Microtome.

AK:  Piece of technology there, a microtome. Could you tell me about that and how that fits into

   your work at Woods Hole?

DP:  This is an integral part of Prof and Del Philpott. When I went to the institute, I immediately

   showed Prof some drawings I had and I said that I had worked on the development of an

   ultra microtome and worked out all of the parameters that needed to be done to build one,

   and this is my drawing. But I said, "They did not allow me to build it in the last place and

   we have to have an ultra microtome in order to do the work that we're doing." I was


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                        39

prepared for a half hour talk on it but, with his great brain, he didn't need anything except

the proper reason.

He said, "Okay, I got a machinist in Connecticut. Build it," and he built it for four hundred

dollars, which was great, and when he called me up and told me he had it done, I grabbed

an airplane, because I had a commercial license. I could get an airplane pretty easy and rent

it, fly it. Flew to Connecticut to get it, because I was so anxious to get it and get it back,

and then the guy kept saying, "Well, this is how it works. This is"-and I said, "I designed

it. I know how it works."  " No, no, no, no, I can't let it go. I'm so proud of this. I got to tell

you. I got to tell you."

Finally, to shut him up I offered him a ride in the airplane. He took that. We put it in the

back of the airplane and I gave him a ride, came back and dumped him off. Flew back, got

back, at about, oh, twelve o'clock, a little after, and the Hungarians always ate lunch late, so

by the time I got back and could set it up, they had gone to lunch. I remember thinking to

myself, "Thank God, because if doesn't work, I'll have time to think of some excuses."

Well, I turned it on and it worked. Then I was mad! Why were they at lunch? Why

couldn't they come here? Why couldn't I show it to them?

Well, then the next thing I found out, and here's where Prof really put his brilliant brain

together again. I found out that since my lab faced south and it was a thermal advance

microtome, that when the sun came in and shone on the microtome, it would start moving it


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                         40

  and it would start cutting, and if I didn't pull the shade down part way, it would not only not

  cut thin, but then it would start cutting thicker and thicker and thicker. So I said to myself,

  "Hey! I can use the window shade to run my microtome." So I took a piece of paper,
marked it off in angstroms and then put it up beside of it, watched the colors and stuff for

the amount of sunlight that was coming on it, and I calibrated my microtome with the

window shade.

Then Prof came in and said, "Well, how are things going?" I said, "Have I got something to

show you. Watch this. Look through the binocs and I'll call off the colors that you see as

the sunlight is shining on that microtome." He looked at it. He looked up and he says,

"Perfect, when I was in Budapest, a prince was where we got our money to do our research.

Now, we had to cobble everything together, and in order to do that, we had a lot of pieces

hung up to the next one, to the next one, to the next one, and so there was a lot of things

that had to be exactly right on each little piece or it would bum out. Well, since there was

so many things to remember, we had a wire recorder4idn't have tape recorders then-and

the requirement to be an officer in the Hungarian Army is to be able to swear for twenty

minutes without repeating yourself, and then you can be an officer in the Hungarian Army."

And he said, "We got somebody who could swear for twenty minutes and put him on the

wire recorder. That was hitched up to it, so if it was not turned on properly, the wire

recorder would come on and start swearing away at you, and keep swearing until you got it

correct. Well, word went out that we had this thing working that way. The next time the


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June $2004                         41

prince came, he walked in and instead of wanting to look at a test tube that had a precipitate

and an explanation and everything else, we said, `What can we show you?' and he says,

`Turn the equipment on incorrectly, I want to hear the wire recorder."' So he said, "We

turned it on incorrectly, it started swearing away like mad, and we kind of cringed and he's

there with a big smile and finally he says, `Okay, you can turn it off.' We turned it of, he

says, `You boys know exactly what you're doing. You got your money,' and walked off."

So he says, "That window shade is the same as that wire recorder. From now on when a

site visit man comes, I'm calling you on the phone. I'm going to find out what time the sun

comes in. That's when I will bring him by your lab. You'll be all set and we'll cut sections

with a window shade," and sure enough, the next site visit guy that came, came in. I had it

all set and I said, "Here, I want to show you how we run our ultra microtome."

So I start running the window shade up and saying, "Okay, is it cutting?" "Yeah, it's

cutting." "Gee, gee. Hey, let me run the window shade." [laughs] So that's what we were

doing, we were working it with the window shade. We got through. It was the first time I

ever had a site visit they didn't want to know anything about the science I was doing. "Boy,

that's great. You really know what you're doing," and off they went. So from then on, we

cut sections with the window shade and it was beautiful. We got our money.

AK:  Now, that was a serendipitous finding.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004

DP:  Oh, yeah.

42

AK:  How would you have cut them, without the sun?

DP:  Oh, it's a thermal advance. See where the two wires are there?

AK: Yes.

Dp:  I had a Variac and the Variac just fed current from a 110 plug.

AK:  But the shade worked better?

DP:  Well, it worked the same. It wouldn't work better, but it worked the same as with the

   Variac. Then obviously you couldn't wait for the sun to do your sectioning. A lot of times

   you didn't have the sun.

AK:  But it was kind of neat.

Dp:  Of course you had to have the other, but I don't think after the word went around on that, I

  don't think anybody ever came to the lab that didn't want to play with the window shade

  there. I had that big strip, you know, angstroms, running up. [laughs] It still works.


AK:  It's an example of the kind of creative thinking, looking at things-what did Szent-Gyorgyi

   always say, discovery is seeing what everybody else sees, but thinking what nobody else

   has thought.

DP:  That's right. When I left, he said, "You've got to take that microtome with you." He says,

   "We've had so much fun with it. They'll just throw it out here. You've got to take it with

   you."

AK:  This was an invention of yours.

DP:  Yeah.

AK:  What year was that, did you do that?

DP:  When I first went there. That was almost the very first thing I did because we had to have

   that. When I worked out the principles for doing ultra thin sectioning, I realized that I

   could take a Spencer 820 microtome-you're probably familiar with one of those. It's a

   very heavy piece of equipment for cutting light microscope sections in par&n. The thing

   just goes up and down, and that's it and it rubs when it comes up, obviously, but it doesn't

   matter. It's cutting them so thick, it makes no difference. But with that, you don't dare go

   by and put an electric charge on it, and maybe rough the surface up a little bit. You've gotta

   miss, and so I reasoned that I would not have to modify the Spencer 820 microtome at all.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                         44

All I needed was a tongue depressor with a notch cut in it, and what I did was I put the

plastic block that we wanted it in-and you had to have a really highly polished knife. You

had to have a good edge.

That was another problem. You had a really good edge, and then run it up and down until

it cut, and then until it wouldn't cut anymore because it was just up and down. Then I'd

push a little bit with the tongue depressor, push a little bit with the tongue depressor so that

it cut enough so that it's now going to miss when it comes up. Now, all you have to do is

get just the amount of pressure on it, and you can cut an ultra thin section. I actually

published it. I've forgotten where it went. Nobody wanted to do it that way.

AK:  But it worked.

DP:   But it worked. That's how I got my first ultra thin sections, with a tongue depressor and I

remember showing it to somebody and they said, "You should publish that."

AK:  Now, we've talked a lot about the pleasure, the sense of humor, the sense of joy and

   discovery. Did you ever see Szent-Gyorgyi frustrated in his work? Upset?

DP:  I don't think I ever did. Of course, I wasn't up there, like Jane [McLaughlin] was with him

   all the time, but it seemed like he always had some idea he was trying, and he worked on

   books, published some books. I remember one of at least, and there was another book that


Interview with Delbert E. Philputt, June 3,2004                        45

was published where somebody had a drawing of the MBL and they had Prof and just a pen

like drawing, you know, where his Institute was. Then they had Del and pointed at the spot


in MBL where I was. But I don't remember him ever being that way.

One time, Prof was going to give a Friday night lecture at the MBL. I think he gave at least

one every summer and some people came by my lab and they said, "Boy, we were really

laying for him. We've looked over all his work and his theory of muscle contraction, we've

got some good holes in it and boy we're really going to clobber him tonight." They were

bragging to me, knowing I guess that I work for him and I better be there so I could seen

him get his comeuppance.

So I went to Szent-Gyorgyi and said, "Hey, so and so has been in the lab and they're

bragging about that and I thought you ought to know about it." He said, "Oh, okay." He

seemed nonplussed about it, so I thought, "Well, I guess it was okay to tell him." What he

did was come up with a completely new theory of muscle contraction. He did not talk

about what they expected at all, and they sat there and never said a word because what they

had the ammunition for wasn't any good. I walked away saying, "Geez, no wonder the guy

got a Nobel Prize. He's brilliant."

AK:  I&huh. There must have been a real change then between summer and-what would you

   call it? The off season? The winter? Was there a name for that period, the nine months of

   the year?


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004

DP:  Well, of course, he worked in his lab year round.

46

AK:  Year round, right.

DP:  So there was no change for him, and then for me, of course, I went immediately to the

  people who were coming in. I had to schedule them, figure out what they were doing, how

  best we could approach what they were doing, what we could look for, how we could fix

   things, how we could cut things and do things like that. So by the time summer was over, I

  was pretty close to an emaciated wreck, and I took my vacation then and then came back

   ready to dive in and get the work done.

I got pretty well known for stuff I was doing. I was starting to get offers to give lectures at

different places. One time I guess I'd had several in a row and I went up to Prof again and

told him I had an offer, and I could tell he was a little upset I was going to be gone so much,

and I thought, "Oh-oh, I better be a little bit careful how many of these I accept." So then I

kind of paced myself, you know, how many times I went off and gave lectures.

AK:  Well, now, you mentioned earlier in our interview about his support for your Ph.D. work at

   Boston University.

Dp:  Yeah.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                        47

AK:  And that he really wanted to make sure that you could do that.

Dp:  When I first went with him, I told him I didn't have a Ph.D. and I wanted to be sure that I

   wasn't there under false pretenses.

AK: Right.

DP:  And he said, "If it works out between us, I'll help you get it." See, and then ten years

   later-well, I had I think 48 or 49 publications and when I realized the number I had, I

   thought, "Gee, if I quickly write one more and send it in, then when I have my application, I

   can put down 50," because when I was a student before, one student had one publication

   and the teacher kept bringing it up all the time and it kind of bothered me after a while. If

   they want to bring mine up, they can bring up fifty this next time around. Anyway, when

  ten years had gone by and we'd had a wonderful time, like I say, I don't have to worry about

   where I go when I die, because I had my heaven on earth for ten years, and that's as much as

   anybody can expect.

He came in my lab and says, "Well, I'm only one person and I only have a small institute,

working mostly on cancer now. You're a lot younger. You have a future ahead of you and

the Ph.D. doesn't mean a thing to me. It never has, and we both know it didn't, but out in

the cold world it will." So he says, "I think this is the right time for you to get your Ph.D."


AK:

DP:

AK:

DP:





AK:





Dp:

He approached you?

uh-hmm.

Did he know that you might want to do it, or did he just come up with it?

He only knew that I didn't have it and that I had told him . . .

When you first started.

When I first started, but he also knew the cold world and knew what I would face without

it. The limitations on advancement and the impossibility of ever having a lab group and

directing it myself without it.

AK:  So he actually helped initiate your . . .

Dp:  Oh, yes, yes. He told me that I should do it.

AK: Okay.

Dp:  And he was absolutely right.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004

AK:  Yeah. Then you did it.

49

DP:  Oh, yeah.

AK:  You got your Ph.D. in `63.

DP:  Oh, yeah. Well, I of course announced that I was looking for a place to go and because in

  the ten years I had been there, I had never used German-even though I was pretty fluent in

  German-or French once in my scientific work, I felt that the requirement to have those two

  languages was the dumbest thing that anybody could ever make a guy waste his time for.

  So to go back after ten years is going to be harder, and I didn't want to go back to a school

  where the Language Department gave the exam because then I would have to kill myself

  learning the languages, and maybe after ten years they wouldn't even allow credit for my

   German that I had passed at the University of Indiana.

AK:  Some people might forget now, because requirements have changed, that up until fairly

  recently, you needed to be scientifically proficient in two or three different languages to get

    a doctorate.

DP:  Pretty stupid. They have all the international meetings and stuff in English. It was crazy. I

  had oodles of offers pouring in, wanting me to come and do electron microscopy and set up

  an electron microscopy lab for the universities, but the Language Department would give


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                         50

the exams, and I didn't want to kill myself doing that. One of them called up and said,

"Well, we can cut it to one for you and then we'll have a math exam for you to take. Would

that be okay?" [laughs]

I got all kinds of offers like that, but Boston University, the department itself gave the

exam, so now you knew you didn't have to kill yourself, and they agreed that the summer

before I went up there, because I still ran the electron mic that summer in Woods Hole, that

I could take the German exam in the summer, so I wouldn't even have that one to worry

about. Once I started, I'd only have the French, and that was an easy French thing. It wasn't

much, and they flunked me the first time just so it looked good on paper, I guess. I didn't

do as well the second as the first, and got passed. But anyway, that took care of that.

Then there was one more twist to it. The assistant chairman of biology was supposed to

take over the electron tic lab-see, I put in for a grant, got the biggest grant they'd ever

had, eighty thousand, bought a German electron microscope, got Jack Kennedy, who later

became President, to take the eight thousand dollars tax off the microscope because it was

for a school in Massachusetts, which he was representing at the time. Bought a second

used RCA and set them up with a nice teaching set up that they could have, but the assistant
chairman who was supposed to take over never came up once to see how the thing was run

and who was supposed to run it.


So later I found out that for my Ph.D. orals, when I told them that so and so was on my

Ph.D. orals, and that I knew the guy and that I thought it would be fun to have him as one

of the people, he had planned to flunk me, so I'd have to stay another year and take care of

it for him. Since that guy was a friend, he wouldn't be able to get him to flunk me, so he

ran and he got Metalsky, who I never heard of, and put him on with only a couple days to


go. So I rau like mad to Metalsky, carried my thesis over and said, "I'm sorry that they put

you on so late, but here it is. I hope you have time to look at it because I'd really like to

have you understand what I've tried to do here for my Ph.D. thesis," and he says, "Oh," he

says, "in a couple days I'll call you doctor." So that made me feel a little better.

Well, I passed because it took two to flunk me. Pat voted against me, but it was only one,

so that didn't flunk me. I immediately went down to Woods Hole to tell Prof that I had

passed, and I walked in and he had a smile on his face and before I could open my mouth,

he says, "Well, I hear you passed. " "You hear I passed? How did you hear?" He said,

"Metalsky called me up." "Metalsky. 7" "Yes, he was a student of mine in Budapest."

AK:  You had not known that?

Dp:  I did not know it. [laughing] It was like taking off a friend and putting an uncle on my

    board.

AK: Wow.


DP:  So that was sort of a last little sweet touch, you know, that went into it.

AK: Very nice.

DP:  It was great.

AK:  He never told you that until you passed.

DP:  The minute that Metalsky had been put on the oral exam committee. He called Prof and

   says, "I'm on your man's Ph.D. thesis," and so Prof knew he was already on it.

AK:  He knew he was on it, but he didn't tell you that . . .

DP:  Well, I wasn't back in Woods Hole.

AK:  Yeah, you weren't there.

DP:  I was up at BU sweating it out. It came back. Isn't that a neat little touch?

AK:  My goodness. Quite a story.

DP: That's great.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                         53


AK:  You know, I imagine that on the one hand, it was part of his honesty, part of his charm, part

  of his idealism, part of the white, when you talk about white versus black, part of the white

  part of the goodness of Szent-Gyorgyi that he had this kind of `money's not as important as
  other things.' On the other hand, in a way, it also gave him some trouble, that he didn't

  seem to understand the fund granting, or he did understand the fund granting process, and

   just didn't want to play.

Dp:  He hated it.

AK:  He hated it.

DP:  Yes-two things. One, the insurance company published that they would give ten thousand

  dollars to several people to do research and one of the conversations we would often have is

  that how the hell can we write proposals saying what we're going to discover, when we

  don't know what we're going to discover? How can we do it? He said, "Almost everybody

  who has to do research, finds something but doesn't say it. Write the proposal that that's

  what they're going to discover and have this lag time built in, in order to keep going with

   their granting stuff." So he says, "I've seen this ad for ten thousand dollars and I have

  written them a letter saying `I offer you my services to spend ten thousand dollars of your
  money on biochemical research,' signed Dr. Albert Szent-Gyorgyi , Nobel Prize Winner,

    and I mailed it to them. I did not tell them what I was going to do, and I think I'll get a

   letter from them." This was at tea.


A week later he comes in and whenever he wanted the floor, he always did this, he put a

finger up and we were all quiet to listen. "I heard from them." "Yes?" He said, "They

called up and said, `We got your letter, but we don't understand it."' So he says, "I went

ahead and I explained it to them. When a baby is born, it can be a Hitler or an Einstein,

there's no way of knowing, and that is what people ask you to say when you write a grant, is

it going to be a Hitler or an Einstein, and there's no way you can say it." So he said, "I went

ahead and I explained the whole thing to them and they said, `Hmmm, okay, you got your

ten thousand."' [laughs]

Now, let me tell you something else that I think is a real key to Prof. I asked him about his

discovering vitamin C because, gee, here's this one chance in ten billion other people that
can ask him. He says, "Oh," he says, "that's really interesting." He said, "I had isolated
only enough ascorbic acid to be pretty sure of what I had, but I had to have some more and I
was trying and trying to find stuff that would have enough in it. I came home for supper
and my wife had cooked peppers. I hate peppers, and I didn't want to eat them. Hmmm,

how can I get out of this?" So he said, "You know, I haven't tried peppers yet. Ya, I got to

try these."

So he said, "I quickly grabbed up everything, and then I said to my wife, Well, did you
cook anymore?' because I figured if she had some waiting, she'd bring a second bowl," and
she said, "Well, yes, I did." So he said, "Oh, oh, we got to put these in the pot, too." So he

put them in there and then his brilliant mind worked and said, maybe there's some raw ones


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                         55

  in the refrigerator, see. So he said, "Do you have any more in the refrigerator?" She said,

  "Well, yes I do. " "Oh, I'll take those," so he had everything she had. Now, his plan he said

  was to go to the lab, throw them out and just go ahead with his work, but here's the key to

  Prof. When he got there and thought about throwing it out, he's so honest, that he said to

  himself, "You know, I can't go home tonight and tell her I threw it out. If she asks me, I


   have to be honest and I have to tell her. I can't tell her that. I'll have to run it," and he says

  he ran it, and there it was, "I had my vitamin C."

AK:  That's a great story.

DP:  And that I think illustrates Prof a lot, about how honest he is. The only troubles I ever saw

   him get into was because he was totally honest.

AK:  Now, as he was encouraging you to get your Ph.D., I almost have the idea that he's thinking

   ahead for you.

DP:  Uh-hmm. Because he said, "It's only a small institute. You're a lot younger than I am."

AK:  So he was expecting that you were going to leave, or anticipating that you would leave, or

   maybe that he would not outlast you.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                         56

Dp:  Well, there's two things he was expecting. Everybody expects to live forever, but he's a lot

  older. He's off on cancer, so his directions have changed some. He doesn't need electron

   microscopy as much.

AK: Isee.

DP:  And the life of the Institute is not going to be the life of my professional career. So all

   these were factors in his mind.

AK:  Tell me a bit, then, about your decision to leave. You did go to the University of Colorado

   Medical School, was it?

DP:  Yeah. The decision had a couple steps in it. I felt that the electron microscope, the ultra

  centrifuge that had just been put in, both needed to be running through the nine months in

   the winter in order to be tunable when summer came. They would be a basket case by the

  time summer came, sitting in Woods Hole and all that moisture and all that stuff and not

  run. And then there was the need to have professional operators on both of them. They
  should hire somebody for the ultra centrifuge, and they should have somebody for the

  electron microscope. Unfortunately, a lot of the old diehards that had come there every

  summer through their career at their universities, had their pet lab they came to for three

    months.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                         57

So they allowed the MBL to be shut down for nine months, this big operation dead for nine

months until Prof came and this area around just him for quite a while. So I said that this

really should be done, since everything was working great and so on. That what I should do

is get a grant, and with the grant, I could work on my grant the nine months in the winter,

and I could run it for them in the summer. Now, the Director of the MBL at the time, the

one that I had to take the tie off for, I've got to get him back into this thing. I got a hold of

one of the granting agencies, somebody I knew. You get to know pretty well all around,

NSF I believe it was, and told them what I wanted to do and so on. They said, "Oh, fine."

They were all for it, so it looked like it was going to be an approved grant. Wrote it, gave it

to MBL to type and the Director said, "Well, you didn't put in rent," and I said, "The

granting agency doesn't allow rent." I don't know if they do now or not, but they didn't

then. And I said, "They won't approve it if you put rent in it," and he said, "I'll rewrite it so

they can't tell it's in there." I said, "Well, I don't think they'll be that stupid. You know, I

think they'll be able to figure it out, no matter how you rewrite it and put the stuff in the

budget with it. " "No, no, that's the only way it's going to be done." So he did and they

rejected it, so I couldn't get my grant and I had to leave. So that's why I left Woods Hole.

Now, I've never been real sure-1 think that the rule was correct, and that it had to be done,

but I'm not dead sure. There's always little devil with a pitchfork inside of you saying that

the Director got even with me.

AK:  For having to admit you to the reception without a tie.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                        58


DP:  Well, to have to accept me. I hope I'm wrong. That part of me is not a Szent-Gyorgyi , I


    guess.

AK: Soyou...

DP:  But they fued the Director shortly after that, and like I say, sometimes there's moments that

  are kind of nice. He met me on the bridge by Captain Kidd's after he was fired, cried on my

  shoulder about why he got tired, and I thought, "I'm enjoying this moment." [laughs]

AK:  But you then needed to go find . . .

Dp:  Yeah. See, so then I looked around and I could have gone with Csuli and Shinya Inoue up

  to Dartmouth. They wanted me to come up there and be with them, and I said, "Well, geez,

  I really think I should be out on my own." It was a terrible decision, whether to go up with

   them or on my own. I got the offer to go to the Department of Biochemistry in Denver,

  Colorado, so I went there, which turned out to be the wrong thing to do. And I had lots of

  offers that would have been pretty good.

One of them was in Canada-I'll say Quebec, I'm not sure. Maybe Montreal. Can't

remember now. The Histology chairman was interviewing me and there was a book laying

on his desk, and while he was interviewing me and talking to me about the position, he

asked me about electro microscopy and I said, "Well, do you want to see a photograph of


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                        59

mine? Look at the cover of your book." He looked at it, paged in there, "photographed by"

me. Picked up the lab manual, picture on the cover by me. [laughs] He turned to me and

said, "Well, hmm, I suppose if you want the job."

AK:  Tell me about leaving Woods Hole. You had been there a long time.

DP:  Well, ten and then the three, so thirteen years. Well, I left by myself. I had been married

   all the while, but let's say that there was an-of course, you go to school, you don't spend as

   much time with your wife or there at Woods Hole with her. And an Air Force navigator

   turned out to be a better navigator than just navigating an airplane. Without going into

   details, that was the end of the marriage. I had the airplane and so I figured, well, it would

   be tough for her for a while and I hadn't paid an awful lot for the house. I gave her the

    house and the car. I sold my airplane and bought a car and went to Colorado.

AK:  You said goodbye, of course, to Szent-Gyorgyi .

DP:  Oh, yeah.

AK:  Tell me about that. He was generally supportive of your leaving?


Dp:









AK:








Dp:

Oh, yeah. He was very supportive of that, because like I say, he had gone into cancer work.

Rather than really working with him, I worked with Csuli, see, and then Csuli left. So a lot

of the people in the Institute had left and he was pretty much down to just his lab.

Tell me about your contacts with Szent-Gyorgyi and Woods Hole after you left, because

you maintained a relationship with him.

Oh, I can tell you one really good one. When I came to [NASA] Ames Research Center,

they had a package like this and were kind of running from office to office. They said,

"Well, I'm busy. Why don't you just take the package and go to the next building and take

it to room such and such," and I thought "Well, there's no reason why I can't take a look." I

took a look. There was a blank piece of paper on the top of everything and it said, "This

man was unconditionally recommended by a Nobel Prize winner."

AK: Wow.

DP:  I said, "The rest of that's junk." [laughs]

AK:  Somebody had written that on there?

Dp:  Yeah.


AK:  That's quite a compliment.

DP:  I thought so, too.

AK:  And a nice thing for him to do.

DP:  Oh, yeah. We always had a rapport that was excellent, and I remember telling Csuli one

  time, I said, "Geez, Csuli," I says, "it's so hard for me when I interact with Prof to realize

  he's the boss. He's like an uncle." I said, "It's really hard." He says, "Yes, but please

   always remember it." So I always tried to, so I wouldn't be smarting off or anything like

    that.

AK:  Now, did you go back to Woods Hole from time to time?

DP:  Well, the arrangement in Denver, and I made this as part of an arrangement any place I was

   going to go, that I could go back in the summer. I had so many friends that I had published

  and worked with that having a little space in a lab was slam-dunk, you know. There was

   nothing to that. So the first year in the Department of Biochemistry I made all the

  arrangements for going back. I was all set. I think I was like two weeks from it or

  something for leaving for the summer and the chairman told me I couldn't go. He wouldn't

   let me go.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                         62

I was back in the black world. When I got there, I'd been told that I would be paid for my

moving and when I got there, he said, "Well, you really can't do that, but if you tear the

stamps off of everything you sent me, I'll reimburse you for the stamps." Now that was my

clue that I'd made a mistake. Then everybody else that came-1 remember another person

came in that he hired and was actually crying in my office and he'd only been there two

weeks, because of the way he got treated after he got there. I said, "Have you burned all

your bridges?" and he says, "Well, maybe not." I said, "You got a bridge you can get on,

get on it. Get the hell out of here."

AK:  But you did maintain touch, though, with Szent-Gyorgyi ? You did go back to Woods Hole

   from time to time?

DP:  Well, I would go back and visit him.

AK:  But you didn't spend any extended research periods?

DP:  No, none. I was onto doing different things.

AK:  You mentioned some photos that you had taken around his 90* birthday.

DP:  Oh, yeah. See, he had an 80' and a 90th, and like I say, I was really flattered to find out that

  on the first list of five, I was on there for being invited.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004

AK:  And also to take the pictures.

63

DP:

Oh, yeah, and to bring a camera. He would buy me or give me enough money for some

flashbulbs and a couple rolls of film before each party, and what I did-see, we'd have the

party on Saturday night and on Sunday I would go in and develop the film. Then on

Monday morning, I'd come in early and I'd print and I would print everything up on 8 X

lo's, because I knew we'd have tea at four to four-thirty and that's the ideal time because

that's what you're going to talk about, the party, see? So I would come up, pass the pictures

out. Then people could all go around and look at the pictures, and then they were for Prof

to take home with him.

AK:  How did you hear of his death?

Dp:  Gosh, he had kidney failure and they offered to put him on dialysis, and as it was explained

   to me-it was somebody from Woods Hole that called. You know, mentally I was more on

   him and what had happened than who was calling, but he refused with the statement that it

   would only prolong things and that it in the long run it wouldn't be worth it. Like I say, his

   mind went for the most correct-not the only, but the most correct-answer that one could

   come up with. I was always amazed at how fast he would do it.

AK: Yes.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                         64

DP:  One time there was a local city problem and they were going to have a town meeting, and

  the town physician was there. He worked on schistosomiasis and I took pictures for him.

  The physician turned to Prof and says, "What do you think we should do?" and Prof

  immediately said, "You have to make a big noise right away, or forget it," and that was it in

    a nutshell. You stand up and fight for it, but you don't sit around and whimper about it.

  That's another sort of clue to how he thought.

AK:  I would like it if you could take a look now at some of the points that you had prepared and

  to see if we have covered everything.

DP:  We should have covered a lot.

AK:  Because I want to make sure that we get to the things that you wanted to mention.

Dp:  Okay. New Year's celebrations I don't think we covered.

AK: We didn't.

DP:  New Year's for the Hungarians was very important, and the one thing they did that was

  different than any place I've ever been in, they had a tub of water and they melted lead in a

  crucible for holding lead, and they cast the lead into the water. Of course, it has a period of

going through some air and then into the water and then hardening. When it hardened, they


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                         65

had somebody that was pretty good at making up fortunes, and they would get this out and
have the light either cast a shadow or find the right angle to look at it, and then they would

tell your fortune for the coming year.

AK:  Oh, that's nice.

Dp:  That was really neat in the way that we did it. Oh, here's something we didn't do. A site
  visit was in progress up on the third floor, where you could look out on the ocean, and

  because of the beautiful view the site visit-I don't know if it was one or two people-were

  looking out. When they looked back, Prof and Csuli were gone. I mean, just like that, they
  weren't there. So they walked around, "Where did they go? Where did they go?" They

  came back to the window and looked out the window and Prof and Csuli were fishing.

  They were actually fishing out in front. He said, "Geez, I don't believe this." Pretty quick
  they're back in with their poles, put their poles away and Prof says, "You'll have to forgive
  me. You'll have to forgive me, but," he says, "Csuli came in and said the Blues were
  running. Bluefish. He says, "They're running," and he says, "you know, they go right

   through. If I would have explained to you that I wanted to go out and fish for it, they'd have

   been gone. So I'm sure that you understand that we had to run out and take advantage of it,
  and now we're back." [laughs] The guy says, "You're right. I would have done it, too."

   [laughs] But again, you get a little clue to how he did things.


Oh, here's something else. When we had our parties, he believed if you played games, it

meant a lot more if you bet money, but it was wrong to bet large sums of money and it

didn't matter how much money you bet. If you had money involved the amount never

matters. So he kept a cigar box full of pennies and when we had the games, he got this

cigar box out with these pennies. So we all got our supply of pennies and we bet pennies

with it. So that's how we would do the games.

He often played chess with people and he was very good at it. So he would smile and tell

me that "I!m going to get my lawn mowed Saturday. I have a game of chess with so and so.

He's coming out to play chess with me. I'll get my lawn mowed." I said, "Well, how's

that?" He said, "Well," he said, "I look, I move, and then I tell him, `When you're ready and

have made your move, come and get me,' and I go out and I mow and I mow and I mow,

and finally they come and get me. I go in, take a look, I make a move and I say, `Okay,

when it's time, you come out and get me." I mow and I mow and I mow." He said, "I

always get it mowed by the time we're done playing chess." [laughs]

We had a Dutch fellow hired that was a mathematician and had calculated that the unit

membrane in the two little black lines were not wide enough. Biochemically they had to be

wider than what we could see in the electron microscope and that was one of his jobs.

Obviously, this guy's Dutch, he's good at chess. He says, "I just got here. Prof invited me

to come up and play chess. Can you tell me anything about being with Prof?" and I said,

"Well, Csuli always said `Don't forget he's the boss,"' and I said, "You're probably pretty


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                        67

good at chess, so maybe to start with, would be better if you don't beat him." And, "Oh,

okay." That was just casual conversation. Monday morning he comes in with a huge smile

on his face and he said, "I want to thank you. I want to thank you," and I said, "What for?"

He said, "Well, I got to playing and I got really involved. Suddenly I realized I was

winning." He said, "I had a terrible time losing, but I lost! I lost!" [laughter]

Another thing-when the pharmaceutical companies got the idea that Vitamin C would

cure a common cold, they overdid it in terms of advertising and Prof wrote to them and told

them that you cannot do that. It's not a cure for the common cold. Now, after they got his

letter, advertisements by them came out again. That was the only legal thing that they had

to stand on in terms of suing them. Before that, I guess legally you couldn't until you

warned them, but he warned them and they did it anyway.

So they made a financial settlement with him, and it's all him and stuff he's done before

he'd even come to Woods Hole, but he gave each one of us four hundred dollars because he

said, "You're part of the Institute. You're part of what's going on. You've got to be part of

what comes in," and he gave us each four hundred dollars. You know, like I say, I lived in

the world of white. Of course, you've heard the story about how he gets up and lectures and

always says he fishes with a big hook.

AK:  Yes, he'd rather not catch the big fish than not catch the little fish.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                        68

DP:  He wants to catch the big one. Did I show you the picture . . .

AK: No.

DP:  Since I was doing a lot of photography all the while, I got the idea that since I had watched

  Prof stand up and lecture and point at pictures on the screen, and point at places in muscle

  where things biochemically were going on, that it would be nice to have a picture of him

   there pointing. So we put the picture together and there was a book that was going to be

  published. [George] Gamow, who was the father of the big bang, also had showed us how

  to pile books off a table so the top one was further off and wouldn't fall; of course if there

  was enough weight if you had three books it won't fall. And that's in the book, too.

So I put it together and since I had the magnification of the muscle on the picture, we then

calculated it for a six foot person, and measured the length on the picture, and we put the

linear shrinkage of Prof on there. I of course showed it to him to make sure it's okay, and

he was extremely proud of the picture, because, "The only time in public I've been linearly

shrunk." So he went around very happy and bragging about the picture and I gave him a

number of copies that he could do something with, if he wanted to.

AK:  A copy of that you've given to me.

DP:  Yeah, so that you can have it.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004                         69

AK:  We've covered what I planned to cover with you, but is there anything else, any anecdote or

  anything you would like to say about Albert Szent-Gyorgyi as we conclude this very

  interesting review of your experiences with him during those very productive years at

    Woods Hole?

DP:  Yes, it was probably the most productive decade of my scientific life. I did well with the

  space agency, but the spinoff of being with him, the methods of doing research, the

  charisma of having been associated with him, all followed me and were very beneficial for

  me. I suppose if there is such a thing as the hereafter, I'd like to think that he's listening

   and smiling right now. When I think back on it, I often think that fate seemed to often step

  in at the right moment for me so that things could happen that made me the luckiest person

   that I could ever imagine to be.

When you grow up in a little town of 1200,120l actually-when I went off to war a buddy

wrote to me and told me they crossed off the "1" and were buying German war bonds

[laughter]-and I peddled newspapers for a dollar a week, and then I think of all the things

that came about and how they happened, and it seems incredible. One person even

mentioned to me that if I were a cat I'd be dead because they have nine lives and I've had

more than that. I got blown up and was wounded in the war; I've crashed an airplane that I

was actually the pilot of; been in a huge car crash pileup, on and on, and it just seems that

there's some hand that's hovering over me.


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004

AK:  And Szent-Gyorgyi was a big part of that providential good luck.

70

DP:  Oh yes, because you are bound to pick up, let's say habits, ways, methods, approaches,

  ways of looking at things that you know are the best ways to look at it in the long run. And

  early on I had made up my mind that to be successful I would never walk over anyone to be

    successful. And anytime I could put my hand out and help them I would, even if it meant

  taking longer to get where I was going. That didn't matter. I'm very grateful when I look

  back on that, I wonder how many other people are ever this lucky?

AK:  Dr. Philpott, that is a nice note to end our interview on. Thank you very much for

  welcoming me to your home and for sharing all this information with me. . . .

[End of Interview]


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott, June 3,2004

                        Index

71

American Heart Association  ..................................................... 25
Ames Research Center [NASA]  .................................................. 61
Boston University  ........................................................ 5,51,53
Chaet,Alfred  ................................................................. 21
Dartmouth  ................................................................... 59
Gross,Paul ................................................................... 19
Hillier,Jim  ................................................................. 9,lO
   As major designer of electron microscope ...................................... 9
Hutson,Marcia ................................................................ 32
Jnoue,Shinya  ................................................................. 59
Institute for Muscle Research  ...................................... 8-l 1,14,30,61,68
   Atmosphere of  .......................................................... 14
Marine Biological Laboratory  ...................................... 8-12, 19,46,57,58
Martha's Vineyard  ..........................................................  19-21
MassGeneralHospital ........................................................ 5,15
McLaughlin, Jane .............................................................. 45
Naples Marine Biological Laboratory  .............................................. 13
National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)  .............................. 37
NationalScienceFoundation(NSF)  ............................................... 58
PenzancePoint ............................................................ 7,8,22
Philpott, Delbert
   And contact with Szent-Gyorgyi after leaving Woods Hole .................... 61,63
   And first meeting with Albert Szent-Gyorgyi  ................................. 4,7
   And interest in photography ........................................ 4,59,63,69
   And interview with Albert Szent-Gyorgyi   ..................................... 7
   And moving to Woods Hole  .............................................. 1,2 *
   And offers to give lectures on work being performed  ............................ 47
   And relationship with Andrew Szent-Gyorgyi  .............................. 15,33
   And respect for Albert Szent-Gyorgyi   .................................. 3, 13,22
   Andreturningtoschoo1forPh.D.  .................................... 5,6,51,52
   AndtensionswiththeDirectoroftheMBL  .......................... 12,13,58,59
    AndworkatlMR  .................................................. 14-16,39
   And work on electron microscopy ................................... l-3,6,9,10
   AndworkingatWoodsHole  ................................... 1,2,8,13,19,51
   Educational background. .............................................. 3,5,50
   Familyof  .............................................................. 60
    On "culture" of Woods Hole  ......................................... 29,53,68
   On being a commercial pilot  ............................................... 20
   On being he first American hired by Szent-Gyorgyi  ............................. 30
   On calling Szent-Gyorgyi "Prof"  ........................................ 35,37


Interview with Delbert E. Philpott., June 3,2004                         72

  On hearing of Szent-Gyorgyi `s death  ........................................ 64
  On leaving the University of Illinois Medical School  ........................... 1,3
   On leaving Woods Hole ................................................... 60
   On New Year's celebrations ................................................ 65
  On Szent-Gyorgyi `s teachings at Woods Hole  ................................. 26
R&h,Stephen .............................................................. 23,34
Sjostrand,Fritioff ........................................................ 12,13,16
Steele, Dick  .................................................................. 30
Szent-Gyorgyi , Albert ....... l-9, 11-15,20,21,29,34,35,38,43,45,46,53,54,58-62,70,71
  And ability to make the right decision immediately  ............................. 22
   And his "wives policy" ................................................. 37,38
   And his commitment to science ............................................. 28
   AndhisworkatWoodsHole.. ........................... 2,6,8,13,19,23,26,38
   Andhis workonmuscle  ................................... 14,23,24,30,46,69
  And positive motivation techniques ....................................... 18,22
   AndwinningtheLaskerAward  ............................................. 25
   AndwinningtheNobelPrize ........................................... 1,3,22
   Characteristicsof  ..................................................... 36,56
    Deathof.. ............................................................. 64
  On supporting Philpott on getting Ph.D.  ...................................... 56
Szent-Gyorgyi , Andrew  .................................................. 15,33,35
Szent-Gyorgyi , Csuli ................................ 14, 15,20,33,37,59,61,62,66,67
University of Colorado Medical School  ............................................ 57
University of Illinois Medical School  .......................................... 1,5, 17
UniversityofIndiana  ......................................................... 3,50
Wald, George ................................................................. 16
   AndNobelPrizeforworkontheretina.. ..................................... 16
Washington University  ......................................................... 32
WesternUnion.. .............................................................. 34