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          5                         REVIEW PANEL ON PRISON RAPE
                                     U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
          6                          OFFICE OF JUSTICE PROGRAMS

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          8                     HEARING ON RAPE AND STAFF SEXUAL
                                    MISCONDUCT IN U.S. PRISONS
          9                   TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE
                                       HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS
         10                         WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2008

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                                                                     2

          1                         APPEARANCES

          2   PANEL MEMBERS:

          3     MR. STEVEN McFARLAND (PRESENT VIA TELEPHONE)
                Director
          4     Task Force for a Faith-Based and Community
                Initiatives
          5     U.S. Department of Justice

          6     MS. CARROLL ANN ELLIS (PRESENT VIA TELEPHONE)
                Director
          7     Fairfax County Police Department Victim Services

          8     MR. WALTER RIDLEY (PRESENT VIA TELEPHONE)
                President and CEO
          9     Ridley Group and Associates, LLC

         10     MS. SHARON F. HOWELL
                Director of Legal Affairs/Office of General Counsel
         11     Texas Department of Criminal Justice
                Huntsville, Texas
         12
                MR. RALPH BALES
         13     Safe Prisons Program Manager

         14                       PANEL TESTIMONY

         15
                MR. JAY TIMOTHY MORGAN
         16     Assistant Warden, Corrections Corporation of America
                Winnfield, Louisiana
         17
                MR. ALFONSO CASTILLO
         18     Warden, Estelle Unit
                Huntsville, Texas
         19
                MR. NATHANIEL QUARTERMAN
         20     Director
                Correctional Institutions Division
         21     Texas Department of Criminal Justice
                Huntsville, Texas
         22

         23

         24

         25
                                                                     3

11:13     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, while we're waiting

          2   on Mr. Quarterman and we're not on the record yet, let

          3   me just introduce, via the mystery of telephone -- the

          4   Panel consists of, to my right, Ms. Carroll Ann Ellis,

12:00     5   who some of you have met.  Ms. Ellis is the director of

          6   the Victims Services Division of the Fairfax County

          7   Police Department, which is one of the largest in the

          8   country.  And to my left, the newest addition to the

          9   Panel, we're very privileged to have Mr. Walter B.

12:00    10   Ridley, R-I-D-L-E-Y, and Mr. Ridley has an extensive

         11   career in corrections about -- from every different

         12   perspective, warden and director and everything in

         13   between.  So -- and my name is Steve McFarland and I am

         14   the third member of this Panel.  All of us have day

12:01    15   jobs, so this is something that we feel is important and

         16   our purpose is to learn from you all what -- what can be

         17   done, should be done, or should not be done to reduce

         18   the incidence and likelihood of sexual assault by staff

         19   or by inmates on inmates.  Before we start, and let me

12:01    20   ask you, Sharon, is there -- do you think we should wait

         21   for Mr. Quarterman?

         22                  MS. HOWELL:  I think that we can probably

         23   go ahead and proceed without him.  I think we'll be

         24   okay.  I know he wants to be here and he is just on the

12:03    25   other side of the door and I believe he is on a phone
                                                                     4

12:03     1   call that is impossible for him to get off of, but may I

          2   ask you a question also before we proceed?

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.

          4                  MS. HOWELL:  We promised you at the last

12:03     5   hearing a number of documents.  We have them gathered

          6   and we have them printed out here in front of me but

          7   each of them is capable of being transmitted to you in

          8   electronic form.  Which would you prefer?

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  Oh, electronic is fine.

12:03    10                  MS. HOWELL:  Okay.  We'll take care of

         11   this today.

         12                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay, great.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  Do you solemnly swear or

         14   affirm that the testimony you're about to give this

12:03    15   Panel will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

         16   but the truth, so help you God?

         17                  WARDEN CASTILLO: I do.

         18                  WARDEN MORGAN: I do.

         19                  MR. McFARLAND:  Again, my name is Steve

12:03    20   McFarland and I'm joined by the other two Panelists,

         21   Mr. Ridley and Ms. Ellis.  As you know, the National

         22   Inmate Survey was taken in 2006.  So let me ask,

         23   Mr. Castillo, when did you become warden at the Estelle

         24   Unit?

12:04    25                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  In March of '07.
                                                                     5

12:04     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  And have you

          2   spoken to anyone in TDCJ about how the inmate survey was

          3   taken in '06 at your unit?

          4                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

12:04     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  Well, then, I'm

          6   going to -- for efficiency purposes, most of the

          7   questions are going to be directed to the year 2006 just

          8   to be fair to you all, because that is when the survey

          9   was taken and that's why we're grateful to have

12:04    10   Mr. Morgan here.

         11                  Mr. Morgan, when were you the senior

         12   warden at the Estelle Unit?

         13                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I believe it was -- I'm

         14   not sure of the month, but I'm going to say it was 2002

12:05    15   or 3, I believe, until February of 2007 is when I left,

         16   retired.

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.

         18                  WARDEN MORGAN:  And I'm not positive of

         19   that, but off the top of my head.

12:05    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.  Mr. Morgan,

         21   how did you prepare for this hearing?

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I had received a -- some

         23   information from the State that listed, just reviewed

         24   some of the Safe Prison information and so forth just to

12:05    25   revive my memory.  I have been gone a little over a
                                                                     6

12:05     1   year.

          2                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  Who have you

          3   spoken with about this hearing?

          4                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I have spoken to

12:05     5   Ms. Sharon Howell.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  And -- and what

          7   did Ms. Howell tell you about the purpose of this

          8   hearing?

          9                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Was that it was before

12:06    10   the Panel, I guess, liken to the PREA in our Safe Prison

         11   Plan and you all had some questions about the survey

         12   that had come up, that it was a number, and I have never

         13   seen the survey but that it was quite a few inmates, I

         14   assume, that had said that they had some type of a

12:06    15   sexual assault of some nature.  I'm not sure.

         16                  MR. McFARLAND:  Have you reviewed any

         17   documents in preparation for this hearing?

         18                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir, I have.

         19                  MR. McFARLAND:  Which ones?  Could you

12:06    20   name them all, please?

         21                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.  I have got it

         22   here.  I have got a copy of our classification

         23   procedure, Safe Prison Plan, an article from the

         24   Huntsville Item, a summary of litigation and response to

12:07    25   a Step 1 Grievance.
                                                                     7

12:07     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  So those sound like the

          2   documents that we asked be in front of you for this

          3   hearing?

          4                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir, I have got them

12:07     5   sitting right here.

          6                  MS. HOWELL:  For the record, we provided

          7   him with exactly those documents.

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah, that's great.  I

          9   appreciate that.  What other documents, just in terms of

12:07    10   background, Mr. Morgan, have you had an opportunity to

         11   review, if any?

         12                  WARDEN MORGAN:  None, sir.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  And how about any

         14   other witnesses, any folks who were on your staff in '06

12:07    15   or later, have you had a chance to talk with about their

         16   recollection of how things go in the area of sexual

         17   assault at Estelle?

         18                  WARDEN MORGAN:  None, sir.

         19                  MR. McFARLAND:  And, Mr. Castillo, let me

12:07    20   just ask you the same questions.  What documents have

         21   you had a chance to review other than the ones just

         22   listed, and who have you spoken with to refresh your

         23   recollection about the sexual assault issue at Estelle?

         24                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Same documents that

12:08    25   Mr. Morgan indicated, and I have talked to Captain
                                                                     8

12:08     1   Jenkins and Captain Dawson.

          2                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  What did they have

          3   to say?

          4                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  They -- they actually

12:08     5   briefed me on the Panel hearing and testimony that they

          6   had offered.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.  Was legal

          8   counsel present when you talked with them?

          9                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

12:08    10                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  Well, tell me what

         11   they had to say.

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  They talked about

         13   cameras that were being used, they talked about sexual

         14   assaults, how could we curtail sexual assaults,

12:09    15   percentages of offender sexual assaults, why was it that

         16   high at Estelle.

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  What did they -- did they

         18   offer any explanations?

         19                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  As far as?

12:09    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  Why they were so high at

         21   Estelle, according to the survey?

         22                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No.  What we talked

         23   about is that was an inmate's survey.

         24                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  You still there?

12:09    25                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.
                                                                     9

12:09     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  And what about -- what

          2   about it being an inmate survey?

          3                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Why -- why was it so

          4   high?

12:09     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  What did they say

          6   about that?

          7                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, they indicated

          8   that possibly what had -- why the numbers were high were

          9   due to maybe strip searches, pat searches that were

12:09    10   conducted, maybe the way we reported incidents.

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  What else?

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  About inmates being

         13   mis-housed on the unit.

         14                  MR. McFARLAND:  What did they say about

12:10    15   that?  Did they say that that has happened on occasion

         16   at Estelle?

         17                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Oh, yeah.  It does

         18   happen, but they're not mis-housed -- they're housed

         19   with the same custody level.

12:10    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  Okay.  Well, we'll

         21   get into that.  What did Captain Jenkins or Captain

         22   Dawson say was the most revealing or damaging thing that

         23   came out of the hearing?  What did they say, you know,

         24   the real surprise we had or the, you know, the high

12:11    25   point or low point of the hearing came when -- fill in
                                                                    10

12:11     1   the blank.

          2                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, they didn't

          3   indicate that to me, just why the percentage was so

          4   high.

12:11     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  And other than -- and in

          6   answer to that question, other than saying:  Well, it

          7   was an inmate survey and maybe it's the strip searches

          8   or the pat-downs and maybe we're misclassifying some

          9   folks on occasion, is it your testimony that they,

12:11    10   Captain Jenkins or Captain Dawson, didn't offer any

         11   other suggestions as to why the number is so high?

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  All right.  Well,

         14   Mr. Morgan, what constitutes sexual assault by staff, in

12:11    15   your understanding?

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, anytime that --

         17   well, there are several, I guess, different aspects that

         18   you could look at.  You're saying inmate-on-inmate or

         19   staff?

12:12    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, we're talking about

         21   staff sexual assault of an inmate by staff.

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I would, of course

         23   -- to me, if it were a sustained sexual assault, I would

         24   classify that as making some type of penetration either

12:12    25   by the mouth or anus.
                                                                    11

12:12     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  Uh-huh.

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  In the case of

          3   male-on-male.

          4                  MR. McFARLAND:  Uh-huh.  Is there

12:12     5   anything else that would constitute sexual assault by

          6   staff, as you understand it, in --

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, unless they were --

          8   some type of masturbation, possibly.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  Is it a rule violation

12:12    10   for your staff at Estelle to have sexual contact with an

         11   inmate even if it is consensual?

         12                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  Even if the staff and the

         14   inmate, they both want it?

12:12    15                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I'm in Louisiana now, but

         16   to my -- my recollection, it's a felony for that to

         17   occur in the State of Texas.

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.  And when you

         19   were warden at Estelle, if -- how many times did you

12:13    20   hear of a staff member sexually assaulting an inmate at

         21   Estelle?

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I'm familiar with --

         23   off -- to my recollection one time.

         24                  MR. McFARLAND:  One time.  So in the

12:13    25   period from 2002 to February of 2007, it's your
                                                                    12

12:13     1   testimony that you heard of one staff sexual assault

          2   incident; is that correct?

          3                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.  To my

          4   recollection, I'm sitting here trying to remember if

12:13     5   there were any others, but yes, sir, that was and it was

          6   turned over to the Office of Inspector General.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  If this is a felony in

          8   Texas, does that concern you when you heard about this

          9   one incident, did that concern you?

12:14    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Very greatly.

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  So is it fair to say that

         12   if there had been other felonies of any nature committed

         13   by your staff in your five years as warden at Estelle,

         14   it probably would come to mind; is that correct?

12:14    15                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

         16                  MR. McFARLAND:  And with all due respect

         17   and I -- and in no way -- this is just lawyer

         18   requirement, but you're not under a doctor's order or

         19   under any prescriptive medication at the time of this

12:14    20   hearing, are you, sir?

         21                  WARDEN MORGAN:  No.  Other than

         22   cholesterol or high blood pressure medication.

         23                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.  Well, you and

         24   me both.

12:14    25                  WARDEN MORGAN:  All right.
                                                                    13

12:14     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.  And again, I

          2   am not impugning your credibility.  I just -- I'm just

          3   supposed to ask those sorts of things.

          4                  Do you believe, sir, that staff-on-inmate

12:15     5   sexual assault ever occurred more than once at -- well,

          6   let me back up.  Did you believe that that one reported

          7   incident was true?

          8                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir, I do.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  And why do you think

12:15    10   that?

         11                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, and I'm unsure if

         12   this has gone to litigation or not, if I could consult

         13   counsel before we discuss it?

         14                  MR. McFARLAND:  Of course you can.

12:15    15                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I don't know if this has

         16   ever gone to court or --

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, what is the name of

         18   the complainant then?

         19                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That's been a couple of

12:15    20   years ago and I don't remember.  But the crux of the

         21   issue was is that the complainant, which is the inmate,

         22   withheld some DNA that was sent off, my understanding,

         23   to DPS and it was tested and came back a positive match

         24   for the DNA from the officer.

12:15    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  What else -- well, all
                                                                    14

12:16     1   right.  Do you believe that staff-on-inmate sexual

          2   assault occurred at Estelle more than that one time

          3   during your tenure?

          4                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That's all that I'm aware

12:16     5   of, sir.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  No, I'm asking what do

          7   you suspect, as the chief executive officer of that

          8   institution?  Do you think that there was only one

          9   occurrence?

12:16    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  To my recollection and

         11   that I can remember, sir.

         12                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, I understand that's

         13   how many reported, and I'm not asking you to speculate

         14   but I'm asking what your professional opinion is.  Did

12:16    15   you suspect that this was the tip of the iceberg and

         16   that there was more than one staff-on-inmate sexual

         17   assault, be it consensual or nonconsensual, between 2002

         18   and 2007?

         19                  WARDEN MORGAN:  There -- you know, we --

12:16    20   there may have been some female possibly but in -- to my

         21   recollection, I -- we never had proof that it was going

         22   on but that the possibility of that there were possibly

         23   a female, and I'm not sure how many, but we had

         24   suspected it possibly may have been done or could have

12:17    25   happened.
                                                                    15

12:17     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  Now, given that Estelle

          2   is an all-male inmate unit, you're suggesting that you

          3   suspected that there may have been female staff who were

          4   perpetrating sexual assault on inmates at Estelle; is

12:17     5   that what you are saying?

          6                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That was information that

          7   was being received.  Now --

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  Who -- who gave

          9   you that information?

12:17    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Sir, I don't -- I don't

         11   remember that.

         12                  MR. McFARLAND:  Where would you expect --

         13   who would you expect, what of your -- which of your

         14   subordinates would you expect to tell you if a felony

12:17    15   was occurring by any of your correctional officers

         16   against inmates during your tenure?

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, of course, our line

         18   staff, a sergeant or a lieutenant or captain who is in

         19   close contact that may suspect -- that may have, you

12:18    20   know, gotten information from an inmate or things of

         21   that nature.  I mean, I don't recall the specifics of

         22   it.  If ever we thought that there was any credence to

         23   it at all, we would turn it over to the Office of

         24   Inspector General.

12:18    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  Well, you wouldn't
                                                                    16

12:18     1   expect a line officer to come to your office, so --

          2   would you?

          3                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That's never happened.

          4                  MR. McFARLAND:  Right.  What would be the

12:18     5   -- what was the protocol in 2006 at Estelle for

          6   reporting by staff of suspected staff-on-inmate sexual

          7   assault?

          8                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, of course, all

          9   staff in in-service and when we talked to them, even

12:18    10   when our Safe Prison coordinator would talk to the

         11   turnouts, we always made it very clear that we had a

         12   zero tolerance for, you know, any type of sexual assault

         13   or strong-arm-type activity.  Of course, it's not

         14   tolerated and went over the signs and so forth for, you

12:19    15   know, people to recognize to help them understand to be

         16   sure that they know what to report.  And, of course, we

         17   would most certainly trust that our staff would turn

         18   that to their immediate supervisor for action to be

         19   taken, for an investigation to be begun or for -- if

12:19    20   we had any inkling that it had happened, we most

         21   certainly would remove that inmate and probably put him

         22   on transient status and initiate an investigation and

         23   possibly the assailant depending on what the situation

         24   was.

12:19    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, let's -- if you
                                                                    17

12:19     1   would just walk me through, Mr. Morgan, the -- the

          2   procedure that you understood would have been or should

          3   have been used in 2006 if an inmate said to one of your

          4   line officers:  Hey, last night my cellie raped me.

12:20     5   What would be your expectation of the procedure?  What

          6   should that line officer do with that -- with that

          7   inmate, with that information?  Who should he or she go

          8   to?  What form should they fill out?  What's the

          9   procedure and how does it make its way or should have

12:20    10   made its way to your attention?

         11                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.  Well, first of

         12   all, if the officer, if they were on the cellblock, to

         13   me, the officer should have taken the inmate immediately

         14   then and went to the -- request a supervisor, advise the

12:20    15   supervisor of what had happened.  Now, I have been gone

         16   over a year.  I'm not exactly sure what exactly each one

         17   of the forms is called, but immediately an investigation

         18   would be started.  If it was during the day when our

         19   upper management was there, I think it would be turned

12:21    20   over immediately to the captain, preferably to the

         21   major, and the major would initiate an investigation,

         22   place that person in, like I had said, in transit and

         23   complete that information by a call of witnesses, you

         24   know, any pertinent staff or anybody else that had any

12:21    25   information that would lead up to that.  If there had
                                                                    18

12:21     1   been an assailant or assailants identified, those people

          2   as well would be isolated from the population.  Upon

          3   completion of that investigation, to go before a

          4   committee and from the committee, they would make a

12:21     5   recommendation to say whether it was sustained.  Of

          6   course, during this process from the very beginning we

          7   would have -- OIG would have been involved and gotten,

          8   you know, into the investigation, too.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  And at what point

12:22    10   would you expect to have been advised that this was

         11   going on?

         12                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Immediately.  Even if it

         13   was at night, I would expect my staff to call me at the

         14   house to advise me of such.

12:22    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  And, of course, if we

         17   thought that it had -- if it was -- and if a medical

         18   examination was required, we would -- I believe we

         19   called it a, not a counselor but a person that we had

12:22    20   that would be the representative for the inmate during

         21   that forensic --

         22                  MR. McFARLAND:  I think an advocate.

         23                  WARDEN MORGAN:  There you go.  I have

         24   slept since then.  I am remembering these things.

12:22    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  I understand.  I
                                                                    19

12:22     1   understand.  Now, tell me what do you mean by the

          2   witness -- or the victim would be placed in transit?

          3   What does that mean?  Where would they be placed?

          4                  WARDEN MORGAN:  They would be isolated

12:22     5   away from other inmates, you know, for any type of

          6   possibly ridicule or any further perpetration toward

          7   that inmate in any way.

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  Sure enough.

          9                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Or any type of

12:23    10   retaliation.

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  Physically, which

         12   cellblock or which building would they be put in or

         13   should they have been put in?

         14                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I can't -- let me think.

12:23    15   I think it was -- I believe it was A Block or A Wing.  I

         16   believe that's our pre-hearing transient area over there

         17   at Estelle.  And I'm going by my memory on this.

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  Well, let me ask

         19   Mr. Castillo.  Mr. Castillo --

12:23    20                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  -- if you heard this

         22   morning that a sexual assault had occurred, where would

         23   you expect your people to take the complainant?

         24                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Sir, that inmate would

12:23    25   most likely be housed on A Wing.
                                                                    20

12:23     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  Is A Wing where you have

          2   your administrative segregation or closed custody unit?

          3                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.  A Wing is a

          4   separate housing and it houses -- a portion of it houses

12:24     5   pre-hearing detention, solitary, so it's away from the

          6   general population.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  Now, we had the

          8   pleasure of an extensive tour and, I should say, Mr.

          9   Castillo, that your staff were very, very accommodating

12:24    10   and helpful and a credit to your institution.  We

         11   enjoyed it and appreciate it very much.

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, thank you, sir.

         13   It's a pleasure.

         14                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, I don't know if it

12:24    15   was for them.  (Laughter).  But if you could just --

         16   because we have a general picture of the layout there,

         17   where is the A Wing in relation to the RMF?

         18                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  All right, sir.

         19                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir.

12:24    20                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  If you come into my

         21   unit -- and it's a telephone style -- you come into

         22   central control, you take a right or you take a left.

         23   Now, all those -- if you take a left and you take a

         24   right, those are housing areas that you are going to be

12:25    25   passing by, but behind the major's office -- and there
                                                                    21

12:25     1   is a disciplinary office, behind that is where A Wing is

          2   located at.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  Now, this is not

          4   the same as the safekeeping wing; is that correct?

12:25     5                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  Now, as I recall,

          7   the safekeeping wing, as you come in the central office,

          8   you would turn right?

          9                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

12:25    10                  MR. McFARLAND:  And a stone's throw from

         11   there on the right you -- would be the safekeeping --

         12   three-tiered safekeeping wing; is that right?

         13                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  You're absolutely

         14   correct.

12:25    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  Just after the infirmary?

         16                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  What information would it

         18   take, Mr. Morgan, in 2006, for your staff to decide to

         19   put the alleged predator or assailant in some segregated

12:26    20   cell?

         21                  WARDEN MORGAN:  You kind of broke up a

         22   little bit, sir.  Can you repeat the question?

         23                  MR. McFARLAND:  I'm sorry.  I think you

         24   said earlier that you might or might not put the

12:26    25   assailant, if he had been identified, in isolation?
                                                                    22

12:26     1                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

          2                  MR. McFARLAND:  What would it take, what

          3   kind of facts or information or testimony or proof would

          4   it take for you or your staff to decide to put that

12:26     5   assailant in isolation?

          6                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I would -- I would act on

          7   it immediately, whether we believed it or not, until we

          8   completed the investigation, to find out for sure.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  So if the victim, in this

12:26    10   case, the inmate, said:  Hey, Sergeant Jones raped me in

         11   the second shift last night, you're going to do what to

         12   the staff person because you're not really putting a

         13   staff person in incarceration, are you?

         14                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I don't have that

12:27    15   authority, sir.

         16                  MR. McFARLAND:  No.  So what would happen

         17   if the assailant is a staff person?  And that's what

         18   we're talking about right now is staff-on-inmate sexual

         19   assault.  I understand the victim or alleged victim is

12:27    20   placed in transit or he's isolated in A Wing.  What do

         21   you expect should have been done to the staff person?

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, what I would do,

         23   sir, and probably would be common practice within the

         24   department, would be, of course, we would gather all

12:27    25   that information, look at it, contact the Office of the
                                                                    23

12:27     1   Inspector General since it involved staff, and we would

          2   probably, depending on the recommendation from OIG, and

          3   the director probably would be brought into that, either

          4   to probably suspend him temporarily with pay or put him

12:28     5   into a non-contact position such as out on a picket or

          6   whatever.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  Is that like a --

          8                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That's one of the towers

          9   on the outside.

12:28    10                  MR. McFARLAND:  Oh, yeah.  All right.

         11   Would you -- would you ever allow a staff person who is

         12   accused of sexual assault to resign in lieu of further

         13   investigation?

         14                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

12:28    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  And why do you do that if

         16   they have just committed a felony?

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I mean, if he wants

         18   to resign, that's his right to do so, but keeping in

         19   mind that that had been referred to OIG, and even though

12:28    20   he resigns does not mean that the charges or the issues

         21   leave; I mean, they're still going to be there.

         22                  MR. McFARLAND:  Do you, Mr. Morgan,

         23   believe that the Estelle Unit had a serious problem with

         24   sexual victimization in 2006?

12:29    25                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, in my opinion, sir,
                                                                    24

12:29     1   if we have one, one is too many.  You know,

          2   unfortunately, I don't know the exact number that we had

          3   by the survey or what the actual number was, but in my

          4   opinion one is too many.  There is not an acceptable

12:29     5   amount of number.  You know, we had programs in place,

          6   posters, educate our staff, our inmates aware that they

          7   can come forth without fear of reprisal or retaliation,

          8   and we most certainly take each complaint very

          9   seriously.  You know, I can't -- you know, as I, as any

12:29    10   other warden in this department, are going to try to run

         11   a safe prison, you know, for the inmates to be there

         12   during their incarceration, and we're going to do

         13   everything we can to make sure that they leave safe and

         14   that they have done their time and paid their penance to

12:30    15   society.

         16                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Morgan, you may have

         17   already answered this.  I don't remember if it was you

         18   or Mr. Castillo, but have you had a chance to read the

         19   Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report released

12:30    20   December 16, 2007 on sexual victimization in state and

         21   Federal prisons reported by inmates in 2007?

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  No, sir, I don't believe

         23   I have.

         24                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.  That report,

12:30    25   based on the survey of 26,000 inmates in 146 prisons,
                                                                    25

12:30     1   including your own --

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  -- indicated that for

          4   every 1,000 inmates at Estelle in 2006, which had an

12:31     5   approximate population of 2,760, that 251 out of a

          6   hundred -- out of a thousand, have reported that they

          7   had some willing sexual misconduct with staff, and 129

          8   out of a thousand said that they had unwilling sexual

          9   conduct with staff.  Assuming the accuracy of those

12:31    10   numbers, does that surprise you?

         11                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

         12                  MR. McFARLAND:  How do you explain those

         13   survey results?  We've talked about what Captain Jenkins

         14   and Dawson might have said, but how do you as a chief

12:31    15   executive officer at that time explain those kinds of

         16   results?

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  And you said 250 --

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  Two hundred fifty-one out

         19   of a thousand.  In other words, they had eighty-four

12:32    20   percent response rate which was well above the national

         21   rate, so eighty-four percent of the folks who were

         22   invited randomly to testify did and your unit had the

         23   highest incident rate of any prison in the country.

         24                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

12:32    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  How do you explain those
                                                                    26

12:32     1   numbers?

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I -- I really

          3   can't, sir.  That really astounds me that it would be

          4   that high.  As I said, we have always encouraged staff

12:32     5   to report and we've always encouraged our inmates to

          6   feel free to come forward and we most certainly take

          7   every complaint very seriously and that quite frankly

          8   is -- is stunning to me that it would be that high.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, Mr. Castillo, how

12:33    10   would you explain those survey results?

         11                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  I was -- when I heard

         12   about it, sir, I was actually stunned.  I couldn't

         13   believe that those numbers were that high.

         14                  MR. McFARLAND:  Assuming that they are

12:33    15   accurate, or assuming they're half accurate and only 125

         16   out of a thousand -- of every thousand inmates are

         17   engaged in sexual assault, at least in 2006 with staff,

         18   how would you explain that?  What would be -- assuming

         19   the accuracy of that or even half that figure, how would

12:33    20   you as the present warden explain how that could

         21   possibly be?  Where would you look?  What would you

         22   question?  What are the questions?

         23                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  I would -- I would

         24   certainly -- if I believed that those numbers were that

12:34    25   high, we have a management problem starting from the
                                                                    27

12:34     1   bottom all the way to the top.  That's the only way that

          2   I could explain that, sir, that obviously correctional

          3   staff, supervisors, majors, assistant wardens, and

          4   wardens do not have or are not involved in their unit

12:34     5   operations.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  So what have you done,

          7   Mr. Castillo, in light of these survey numbers, if

          8   anything, to improve the numbers at Estelle?

          9                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  To -- to --

12:35    10                  MR. McFARLAND:  What have you done in the

         11   last four months to prevent a recurrence of this level

         12   of prevalence of sexual assault at your unit?

         13                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  I believe that we have

         14   -- it was emphasized prior to my arrival during shift

12:35    15   briefings, and it's emphasized during in-service

         16   training, but I think more than ever we have

         17   reemphasized it during shift briefings and I even came

         18   up with an idea.  If you have time, I'll relay it to

         19   you.

12:35    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah, if you can go into

         21   as much detail as you can, and I didn't understand what

         22   kind of briefings you were saying there of being

         23   reemphasized.

         24                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Those are shift

12:35    25   briefings.  However, we had a meeting, it's been about a
                                                                    28

12:35     1   month ago, and I discussed that there is a -- there is a

          2   television set on every unit that was set up for Crime

          3   Stoppers.  We used to show Crime Stoppers to the inmate

          4   population, and I provided an idea that maybe we could

12:36     5   show tapes on the prevention of sexual assaults, maybe a

          6   five-minute tape, during the evenings that would be

          7   played to the inmate population on TVs and that idea

          8   will most likely be taken.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  It hasn't -- it hasn't

12:36    10   been done yet?

         11                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, but we -- they have

         12   already -- the administration has sent out e-mails

         13   requesting to know what would it take to set up those

         14   TVs in motion.  I know mine in my unit is set up already

12:36    15   to take a five-minute video that would be conducted on

         16   the prevention of sexual assaults and we could show it.

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  What else, if anything,

         18   has been done, to your knowledge, to avoid

         19   staff-on-inmate or inmate-on-inmate sexual assault at

12:37    20   your unit?

         21                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Just emphasizing it

         22   more, talking to inmates.  As a senior warden or an

         23   assistant warden or a major, you have to be very visible

         24   within your unit.  You cannot supervise a unit from a

12:37    25   corner office and I really believe in that.  You have to
                                                                    29

12:37     1   be involved.

          2                  MR. McFARLAND:  How are you involved,

          3   sir, in making yourself visible to inmates?

          4                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  I have always been

12:37     5   involved.  I didn't start being involved the last month,

          6   but I have always been involved in that I'll go out and

          7   I conduct inmate interviews, you're visible with your

          8   staff, you're involved with your staff.  I have even

          9   stood out there in the middle of the hallway and

12:38    10   conducted pat searches myself.  If I can conduct a pat

         11   search, then your correctional staff and your

         12   supervisors should be able to conduct pat searches.  So

         13   that sends a message to your staff that your

         14   administration is involved.

12:38    15                  MS. ELLIS:  Mr. Morgan, how do you do?

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Very well.

         17                  MS. ELLIS:  Mr. Morgan, I am curious

         18   about the atmosphere and the relationship that exists

         19   within the -- or might have existed during your stay

12:38    20   before your retirement.

         21                  Was it your sense that there was a lot of

         22   talk about sexual behavior between inmates and staff?

         23   Did it ever come to your attention that this might have

         24   been common behavior and that people typically talked

12:39    25   about those kinds of relationships or that kind of
                                                                    30

12:39     1   behavior?

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  No, ma'am.

          3                  MS. ELLIS:  And I suppose I'm curious

          4   because I do recall the discussion that we had with

12:39     5   Captain Jenkins and Captain Dawson when we were in

          6   Texas.  And we talked about gossip, just common gossip

          7   that goes on in institutions and I believe, and of

          8   course the record would bear me out on this, that they

          9   did -- they did acknowledge that they were aware of the

12:39    10   gossip that does go on, particularly about female --

         11   female officers and male prisoners.  Has that ever --

         12   does that have any meaning to you?  Does that strike a

         13   chord with you?

         14                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I think in any

12:40    15   business, especially if it's a large group of people,

         16   there is going to be people who are going to gossip,

         17   ma'am, whether it's in prison or at Wal-mart.  I myself

         18   don't participate in gossip, and I -- no one -- I'm not

         19   joining in with that type of -- you know, unless we have

12:40    20   got factual information to deal with.  I mean,

         21   especially in a prison setting, a lot of times the

         22   inmates will start things and get gossip going just to

         23   get things started and just to perpetuate the issues,

         24   but as far as me participating in gossip, no, ma'am, I

12:40    25   hadn't done that.
                                                                    31

12:40     1                  MS. ELLIS:  I wasn't necessarily

          2   suggesting that you were participating in it.  I was

          3   just wondering if you --

          4                  MR. McFARLAND:  Heard it.

12:40     5                  MS. ELLIS:  -- were aware and heard it

          6   and could somehow draw from that that there might be a

          7   particular atmosphere that exists there in the prison

          8   regarding such matters?

          9                  WARDEN MORGAN:  No, ma'am, no more than

12:41    10   what we had talked about earlier where during my tenure

         11   there that there was some, you know, information that

         12   possibly that some females were having inappropriate

         13   relationships and where that -- you know, what had taken

         14   place, I don't know other than to really phrase it as an

12:41    15   inappropriate relationship.

         16                  MS. ELLIS:  I see.  What did you -- what

         17   did you see as your biggest challenge in implementing

         18   PREA during your stay there?

         19                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, in our department

12:41    20   even before PREA had come, I mean sexual assault in --

         21   in our environment is a very serious issue.  We have

         22   always tried to talk to staff as long as I have been in

         23   corrections about that it's an unacceptable act and that

         24   it is to be reported immediately and to take action.

12:42    25                  MS. ELLIS:  What was your guidance or
                                                                    32

12:42     1   what were your procedures in terms of officers chancing

          2   upon two inmates involved in sexual behavior?

          3                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, that's a violation

          4   of the rules and they would be written up for sexual

12:42     5   misconduct, and of course, they probably would be taken

          6   from there to pre-hearing detention, awaiting the

          7   investigation and their disciplinary action to be gone

          8   to Court.

          9                  MS. ELLIS:  What do you see as an

12:42    10   inmate's greatest fear in being incarcerated?  What is

         11   it that they dread?

         12                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I think probably just

         13   the -- especially a smaller person being in that

         14   environment with that strong of personalities and people

12:43    15   that are there.  It's a lot of people that are -- you

         16   know, that are in prison and just to be alone and you

         17   don't know anybody and to have to walk into those --

         18   those issues and to have to deal with them to fit in --

         19   into the culture of the prison.

12:43    20                  MS. ELLIS:  So fitting into the culture

         21   of the prison?

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, ma'am.

         23                  MS. ELLIS:  Are you aware that some time

         24   ago there was a study that addressed that very issue and

12:43    25   it was found that most male prisoners fear being raped?
                                                                    33

12:43     1                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I could understand that,

          2   ma'am.

          3                  MR. RIDLEY:  Good afternoon, sir.

          4                  WARDEN MORGAN:  How are you, sir?

12:43     5                  MR. RIDLEY:  Very well, thank you.  Just

          6   a few questions for you.

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

          8                  MR. RIDLEY:  Mr. Morgan, how long have

          9   you been in corrections?

12:43    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I retired last year.  I

         11   think twenty-eight and a half years, almost

         12   twenty-nine years.

         13                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  Mr. Castillo?

         14                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

12:44    15                  MR. RIDLEY:  How long have you been in

         16   corrections?

         17                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Twenty-four and a half

         18   years, sir.

         19                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  Couple of follow-up

12:44    20   questions to that.  In prison work, you develop

         21   intelligence resources?

         22                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         23                  MR. RIDLEY:  Let me ask you:  Did any of

         24   your intelligence reveal to you allegations of sexual

12:44    25   assault by either staff or inmates during the course of
                                                                    34

12:44     1   your service?

          2                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, staff.

          3                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  What were they?  Give

          4   me a couple instances.

12:44     5                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, if you conduct

          6   interviews and when you talk to the inmate population,

          7   at times they'll tell you that officer so-and-so is

          8   having a relationship with an inmate.  Now, do you

          9   believe everything you hear?  No, you don't.  However,

12:45    10   if you hear it over and over and over, there could be

         11   some validity to those allegations.  So what happens is

         12   that you start looking at this person and maybe have a

         13   conversation with their supervisor:  Hey, you might want

         14   to take a look at this person and gather some

12:45    15   information, some intelligence, pass it over to the

         16   Office of the Inspector General until the allegations

         17   can be proven.  And in my experience, if you give it a

         18   little time, most likely they will fall into that trap.

         19                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.

12:45    20                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  So it's all about

         21   intelligence.

         22                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  Do you have an

         23   investigative unit in your institution?

         24                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  The Office of the

12:46    25   Inspector General.
                                                                    35

12:46     1                  MR. RIDLEY:  That's housed within your

          2   institution?

          3                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  There is an

          4   investigator based out of my unit.

12:46     5                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  So potentially if you

          6   heard those allegations or rumors and you had reliable

          7   sources of information, which we do in this business,

          8   right?

          9                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

12:46    10                  MR. RIDLEY:  You would allow your

         11   investigative team to become engaged and provide you

         12   with some findings or conclusions or recommendations?

         13                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Recommendations.

         14                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  Okay.  Have you ever

12:46    15   had an occasion to do that since you have been at

         16   Estelle?

         17                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, I can give you an

         18   incident that occurred last week.  I had a warden from a

         19   private unit that's located in the Livingston area call

12:47    20   the unit and speak to a lieutenant, and he wanted to see

         21   if we could conduct a cell search of a particular inmate

         22   because the officer, one of his employees was -- had

         23   established a relationship while she worked for the

         24   Texas Department of Criminal Justice at the Gibb Lewis

12:47    25   Unit.  So we assisted him.  We conducted a cell search
                                                                    36

12:47     1   of the inmate's property and we found pictures of her.

          2   The inmate indicated to us that she had had a sexual

          3   relationship with him and that she was pregnant with his

          4   child.  So I forwarded the information to the warden and

12:48     5   I also advised our Office of the Inspector General, my

          6   investigator that is based on my unit, and yesterday he

          7   conducted an investigation with the inmate and the

          8   inmate told him that that, in fact, had occurred, so

          9   he'll be -- he will pursue that.

12:48    10                  MR. RIDLEY:  "He," the OIG investigator?

         11                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.  His next

         12   step will be to pursue it in free world charges if they

         13   were substantiated.

         14                  MR. RIDLEY:  Against whom?

12:48    15                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Against the former

         16   employee.

         17                  MR. RIDLEY:  The female/now pregnant

         18   officer?

         19                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Right.  She has already

12:48    20   had the child.

         21                  MR. RIDLEY:  And is she still an employee

         22   of TDCJ?

         23                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No.  She was a former

         24   employee but she was now assigned to the private unit, a

12:49    25   private unit that is located in Livingston, Texas.  She
                                                                    37

12:49     1   does not work for the Texas Department of Criminal

          2   Justice.

          3                  MR. RIDLEY:  All right.  So who called

          4   from Livingston to your unit with this intelligence?

12:49     5                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  The senior warden.

          6                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  So Livingston's

          7   senior warden says:  Hey, I've got a former employee of

          8   yours down here who just gave birth to a -- recently to

          9   a child and I have reason to believe the father is one

12:49    10   of your inmates; is that right?

         11                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  That's correct.

         12                  MR. RIDLEY:  And to corroborate this, you

         13   might want to do a cell search of who turns out to be

         14   the father?

12:49    15                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  He told us if we would

         16   be able to conduct a cell search and see if we could

         17   find pictures of her or either correspondence.  And we

         18   were able to find pictures, find the correspondence, and

         19   not only that, but the inmate admitted to us that he had

12:50    20   had a sexual relationship while she was a correctional

         21   staff member at the Gibb Lewis Unit, which is a Texas

         22   Department of Criminal Justice.

         23                  MR. RIDLEY:  Have you ever used snitches?

         24                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, I don't like to

12:50    25   call them snitches but informants.
                                                                    38

12:50     1                  MR. RIDLEY:  Yeah, okay.

          2                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.  I mean you

          3   get all kinds of information.

          4                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  Have you cultivated

12:50     5   your informant process to the fact that they give you

          6   reliable information?

          7                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Sir, there are inmates

          8   out there that will provide you with reliable

          9   information, and then there are some inmates that will

12:51    10   not provide you with reliable information but they give

         11   you this information to think that they're doing

         12   something constructive.

         13                  MR. RIDLEY:  But have you cultivated your

         14   informants so that they give you reliable information?

12:51    15                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         16                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  Have any of your

         17   reliable informants shared with you information about

         18   the sexual assaults either by staff-on-inmates,

         19   inmates-on-inmates during your tenure at Estelle?

12:51    20                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir, not

         21   inmates-on-inmates.  But like I said, they will tell you

         22   that so-and-so -- officer so-and-so is having a

         23   relationship, but as far as having a sexual

         24   relationship, no, sir, not while I have been at Estelle.

12:51    25                  MR. RIDLEY:  Do you have a homosexual
                                                                    39

12:51     1   population at Estelle?

          2                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir, any given

          3   unit has a homosexual population.

          4                  MR. RIDLEY:  Any issues with that

12:52     5   population as it relates to sexual assaults?

          6                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

          7                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  What kind of inmates

          8   are the most vulnerable to sexual assault by other

          9   inmates?

12:52    10                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Your safekeeping.

         11                  MR. RIDLEY:  And who are the kind of

         12   folks that you want to put in safekeeping?

         13                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Weaker, vulnerable

         14   inmates are the ones that you want to put in

12:52    15   safekeeping.

         16                  MR. RIDLEY:  And what makes somebody

         17   vulnerable besides their stature or lack thereof?

         18                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Homosexuality.

         19                  MR. RIDLEY:  So if you have got

12:52    20   homosexuals at Estelle Unit on every block, I think you

         21   just testified, then you have got some vulnerable

         22   individuals on every block; is that correct?

         23                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.  The

         24   possibility exists, yes, sir.

12:53    25                  MR. RIDLEY:  And what are you doing about
                                                                    40

12:53     1   them?  If they're vulnerable and they're still in the

          2   general population, aren't they a sexual assault waiting

          3   to happen?

          4                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, if they bring it

12:53     5   up to our attention, we're going to take the appropriate

          6   measures.

          7                  MR. RIDLEY:  Well, if you don't -- if you

          8   know that an inmate is homosexual, then is it fair to

          9   say that everybody in the general population knows that

12:53    10   he is gay; is that correct?  There is not going to be a

         11   secret?

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  That would be safe to

         13   assume, yes, sir.

         14                  MR. RIDLEY:  Yeah.  So if everybody in --

12:53    15   if 2,800 inmates know that this guy is homosexual in

         16   orientation, then isn't it fair to say that everybody in

         17   the general population considers this person vulnerable

         18   and fresh meat?

         19                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir, could happen.

12:54    20                  MR. RIDLEY:  And so given that the TDCJ

         21   has a zero tolerance policy for sexual assault, does

         22   that lead you to want to do some preventative measures

         23   so that you safe keep vulnerable individuals before they

         24   get raped, not after you learn about it?

12:54    25                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  But we do that, sir, at
                                                                    41

12:54     1   times.

          2                  MR. RIDLEY:  At times.

          3                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  If -- as an

          4   administrator, if you believe that the inmate is going

12:54     5   to have problems in your general population, the best

          6   thing that you can do is to classify him into a

          7   safekeeping status.

          8                  MR. RIDLEY:  As I recall, safekeeping is

          9   physically identical to any other general population

12:54    10   cellblock; isn't that right?

         11                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         12                  MR. RIDLEY:  And so if you fill up those

         13   three tiers in your current safekeeping, you can

         14   designate any other parts of cellblocks to be

12:55    15   safekeeping; isn't that correct?  So you're never going

         16   to run out of safekeeping cells; isn't that right?

         17                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         18                  MR. RIDLEY:  So if there is a limitless

         19   supply of safekeeping cells, why wouldn't you put every

12:55    20   known homosexual inmate in safekeeping before they get

         21   raped?

         22                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  The inmate could

         23   possibly indicate to you that he does not want to go to

         24   safekeeping.

12:55    25                  MR. RIDLEY:  All right.  That's fair
                                                                    42

12:55     1   enough.  Any other reason why you wouldn't do that

          2   preventative safekeeping?

          3                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

          4                  MS. ELLIS:  We're going to change

12:56     5   genders.

          6                  MR. RIDLEY:  This is Mr. Castillo that we

          7   have been speaking with, isn't that correct?

          8                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

          9                  MR. RIDLEY:  Now, can I just back up and

12:56    10   ask Mr. Morgan, you have heard this testimony and we can

         11   go over all the same questions but maybe just in terms

         12   of efficiency, is there anything that you've heard

         13   that -- about the Estelle Unit thus far about the use of

         14   intelligence and knowing about homosexuals and

12:56    15   cultivating your snitches and so forth that was

         16   different at Estelle in '06?

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Would you remind -- would

         18   you ask the questions again so I --

         19                  MR. RIDLEY:  Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm just

12:56    20   trying -- that's a very compound question.

         21                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir, you're covering

         22   a lot of things in a lump there.

         23                  MR. RIDLEY:  Yes, I sure am.  All right.

         24   I'll back up then.  When you were a warden, did you have

12:56    25   sources of intelligence, informants that you cultivated
                                                                    43

12:57     1   and you considered credible?

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  What do you mean by

          3   cultivated?

          4                  MR. RIDLEY:  Encouraged.  You didn't

12:57     5   punish them when they came forward with information but

          6   rather rewarded it in some manner so that there was an

          7   incentive for people to tell you before a felony occurs

          8   rather than after?

          9                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, when we're talking

12:57    10   about an informant, I mean in my dealings with

         11   informants I don't promise anybody anything.

         12                  MR. RIDLEY:  Yeah.

         13                  WARDEN MORGAN:  If someone gives

         14   information, they are giving it of their own free

12:57    15   volition and then we take it from there and consider

         16   whether or not it is a viable issue or not.

         17                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.

         18                  WARDEN MORGAN:  You know, I'm just not

         19   going to take the word of anybody that comes up or I'm

12:57    20   going to give you something in return.  I don't do that.

         21                  MR. RIDLEY:  Yeah.  Yeah.  All right.  In

         22   your twenty-nine years of experience in corrections,

         23   what reasons do inmates have for giving intelligence

         24   about other inmates or about staff?

12:58    25                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, it's been my
                                                                    44

12:58     1   experience that inmates that come forward, sometimes

          2   they are doing the right thing, that they want to do

          3   what is right and -- or don't want to see someone get

          4   stabbed or sexually assaulted or strong-armed or

12:58     5   whatever.  I mean, our inmates, some of our inmates do

          6   do the right things.

          7                  MR. RIDLEY:  And so did you ever punish

          8   anybody for telling you about -- about felonies or

          9   sexual assaults or rule infractions?

12:58    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I don't understand your

         11   question.

         12                  MR. RIDLEY:  When you were warden at

         13   Estelle, did people come to you and say:  I think

         14   officer so-and-so is involved with so-and-so inmate

12:59    15   sexually?

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  No, sir, not to my

         17   recollection, no.

         18                  MR. RIDLEY:  Did any of your staff come

         19   to you and say:  I have heard from an inmate who I

12:59    20   consider to be reliable that something is going on

         21   between a staff and an inmate?

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  To my recollection, there

         23   may have been a few times that a supervisor may have

         24   come to me and said that he had heard now, you know,

12:59    25   that this may or may not have been going on, and anytime
                                                                    45

12:59     1   that occurred, we always referred that to the Office of

          2   the Inspector General because they also have quite a few

          3   informants that they work with so that they have a piece

          4   of the puzzle and they know also what is going on so

12:59     5   that we can monitor the situation.

          6                  MR. RIDLEY:  In 2006, Mr. Morgan, the

          7   Estelle Unit had 151 -- according to your department's

          8   information, had 151 incidents of staff or employee

          9   discipline and -- at Estelle.

13:00    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

         11                  MR. RIDLEY:  And of those 151, not a

         12   single one was a 42D rule violation, namely sexual

         13   misconduct with an offender.  Do you think that is an

         14   accurate figure or do you think, well, you might have

13:00    15   missed a few?

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I'm not going to

         17   say it's perfect.  You know, anybody can come up and

         18   make an allegation.  Whether the allegation is

         19   substantiated or not is the issue that you have to come

13:00    20   up with that you can pursue an investigation on an

         21   employee.  You know, there is a lot of times that an

         22   inmate may be just doing that just for retribution

         23   against an employee for whatever reason, from

         24   disciplinary to whatever.

13:01    25                  MR. RIDLEY:  Sure.
                                                                    46

13:01     1                  WARDEN MORGAN:  And I think you would

          2   agree, but, you know -- and there have been times that

          3   we may have thought there may have possibly been

          4   something there but there wasn't enough to prove it to

13:01     5   take action but, you know, what few of those that came

          6   up, we always pursued it and -- again, through our

          7   branch, of our investigative branch would be the Office

          8   of the Inspector General.

          9                  MR. RIDLEY:  Well, do you agree,

13:01    10   Mr. Morgan, with Mr. Castillo's testimony a couple

         11   minutes ago that if they kept hearing over and over and

         12   over that some staff, an officer might be having a

         13   relationship, that maybe they might want to take a look

         14   into it and refer it to OIG; is that the way things were

13:01    15   at Estelle in '06?

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Oh, yes, sir.  We didn't

         17   have to hear it over and over, sir.  As I -- I believe I

         18   said earlier, anytime we got information, we always gave

         19   it to our office of Inspector General so that they --

13:02    20   whether we could substantiate it at that time or not so

         21   that they knew exactly what was going on, and that

         22   through their channels and avenues that they may have

         23   that we don't, that they could also be monitoring for

         24   that situation.

13:02    25                  MR. RIDLEY:  All right.  In '06, were
                                                                    47

13:02     1   there homosexuals in your inmate population at Estelle?

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

          3                  MR. RIDLEY:  And what did you do with

          4   them if -- if you knew that they were a homosexual?  Did

13:02     5   they go -- did you put them all in safekeeping unless

          6   they asked not to be?

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Those that had been

          8   identified and I believe approved through the Bureau of

          9   Classification to be placed into safekeeping status.

13:02    10                  MR. RIDLEY:  Well, that's my question is

         11   who got into safekeeping status and why, and then I'm

         12   specifically just talking about folks who -- well, let

         13   me back up.

         14                  Do you agree that a homosexual, a known

13:02    15   homosexual is vulnerable to sexual assault at Estelle?

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Any inmate is vulnerable

         17   to assault.

         18                  MR. RIDLEY:  Yeah.  Is a known homosexual

         19   more likely to be targeted than any average prisoner?

13:03    20                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I mean -- and I

         21   have been in the business almost thirty years.  I have

         22   seen people that were in prison that were homosexuals,

         23   was not practicing that lifestyle while they were in

         24   prison, and they functioned very well and had no

13:03    25   problems.
                                                                    48

13:03     1                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  Well, I believe you

          2   testified earlier, Mr. Morgan, that one rape is too

          3   many.  So I'm assuming that when you were warden at

          4   Estelle in '06, you were committed to zero tolerance; is

13:03     5   that right?

          6                  WARDEN MORGAN:  You're correct.

          7                  MR. RIDLEY:  All right.  Then you must

          8   have some idea of the kinds of inmates that were more

          9   likely to be victimized than others, right?

13:04    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, yes, sir.

         11                  MR. RIDLEY:  People that are small of

         12   stature, people that are perceived to be gay or are, in

         13   fact, gay; is that correct?  Those folks are a part of

         14   the profile of someone who is more likely than the

13:04    15   average prisoner to get assaulted sexually?

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir, I suppose that

         17   is true.

         18                  MR. RIDLEY:  Isn't that indeed part of

         19   your Safe Prison Plan training that you give your staff,

13:04    20   you know, what kind of inmate is more vulnerable, you

         21   know, who to look out for?

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Correct.

         23                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  So given your

         24   understanding of who is vulnerable, who are the most

13:04    25   likely candidates, not guaranteed but the more likely
                                                                    49

13:04     1   than not to be your victims, if you knew an individual

          2   was a known homosexual, did you wait until they claimed

          3   to have been assaulted before you would put them in

          4   safekeeping or did you do it preventively?

13:05     5                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, we -- I -- you

          6   know, if someone is functioning out in the population, I

          7   mean again, as I said awhile ago, just because they're a

          8   homosexual doesn't mean that they have to be on

          9   safekeeping.  From what I hear you saying is that every

13:05    10   homosexual should be on safekeeping.  Is that your

         11   point?

         12                  MR. RIDLEY:  No, I'm not making any point

         13   because I'm just asking questions here.

         14                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I'm with you.

13:05    15                  MR. RIDLEY:  You know, you're the expert

         16   on this, so --

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

         18                  MR. RIDLEY:  What type of staff are most

         19   likely to commit sexual misconduct with an inmate?

13:05    20   What's your assessment?

         21                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Repeat your question,

         22   please, sir.

         23                  MR. RIDLEY:  What is the profile of your

         24   staff member that you would suspect would be more likely

13:06    25   than the average staff member to get involved sexually
                                                                    50

13:06     1   with an inmate?

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, possibly someone

          3   who has recently gotten a divorce, someone with low

          4   self-esteem possibly.

13:06     5                  MR. RIDLEY:  Did you have anybody like

          6   that in '06 at Estelle on your staff?

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I think there was a whole

          8   lot of them in the world.

          9                  MR. RIDLEY:  Yeah.  No, well, my question

13:06    10   is about Estelle in '06?

         11                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I would suppose yes, sir.

         12                  MR. RIDLEY:  Well, I don't want you to

         13   guess.  Do you have reason to believe that you had staff

         14   in '06 at Estelle who were recently divorced or were --

13:06    15   had suffered from low self-esteem sufficient to make

         16   them consider getting involved sexually with an inmate?

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I could not give you a

         18   specific person, no, sir.

         19                  MR. RIDLEY:  That wasn't my question.

13:07    20                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Okay.

         21                  MR. RIDLEY:  Did you as the chief

         22   executive officer at Estelle in 2006 have reason to

         23   believe that you had those kinds of people on your

         24   staff?

13:07    25                  WARDEN MORGAN:  There could have possibly
                                                                    51

13:07     1   been, yes, sir.

          2                  MR. RIDLEY:  And did you take any action

          3   to make sure that those possible assailants didn't work

          4   in a position to get involved sexually with an inmate at

13:07     5   your unit?

          6                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I -- just because

          7   someone had just had a divorce, I wouldn't necessarily

          8   call them an assailant, but --

          9                  MR. RIDLEY:  That's true.

13:07    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  You know, we have an

         11   employee assistance program within the department and

         12   anybody -- our supervisors always encourage to -- if

         13   someone is having any type of problems, family, divorce,

         14   any types of problems like that, that those programs are

13:08    15   there for their assistance if they need it.

         16                  MS. ELLIS:  Mr. Morgan, would those two

         17   qualifications apply to males and females, recently

         18   divorced, low self-esteem?

         19                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Possibly, yes, ma'am.  I

13:08    20   could possibly see that, yes, ma'am.

         21                  MS. ELLIS:  Are there any others that

         22   come to mind when you think about characteristics of a

         23   person who might get involved with an inmate?

         24                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Just sitting here

13:08    25   thinking, those are the only two that I can think of
                                                                    52

13:08     1   right now, ma'am.

          2                  MR. RIDLEY:  How about -- what about

          3   their sexual orientation?

          4                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Would you explain?

13:08     5                  MR. RIDLEY:  Did you ever have a gay

          6   staff member in '06 at Estelle?

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I don't know.  I couldn't

          8   tell you, sir.

          9                  MR. RIDLEY:  When you were warden in '06,

13:09    10   did you ever hear from any source, be it a staff or

         11   inmate, that you had a homosexual on your staff?

         12                  WARDEN MORGAN:  No, sir.  To my

         13   recollection no one ever told me that, no, sir.

         14                  MR. RIDLEY:  How do you create a culture

13:09    15   in Estelle of reporting rather than some code of silence

         16   among staff?

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  As far as reporting

         18   sexual assault?

         19                  MR. RIDLEY:  Yes, sir.

13:09    20                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Again, we go over this in

         21   our pre-service, in-service, shift turnout meetings we

         22   talk about it.  They receive, I think, at least a half

         23   hour of the Safe Prisons Program in in-service I -- it's

         24   one of them.  And our officers, I believe when they come

13:10    25   in, I think in pre-service it's four hours that they
                                                                    53

13:10     1   receive in reference to those issues and so forth, and

          2   as I said, sir, we've always taken it quite serious and

          3   we -- and as Mr. Castillo had said earlier, you have to

          4   be available to your staff and as well as the inmates.

13:10     5   I myself as the warden spent a lot of time in the back

          6   visiting with staff, visiting with inmates for an open

          7   line of communication and encouraging a line of

          8   communication.  To create a good culture within the

          9   prison population, those are the types of things that

13:10    10   need to happen.

         11                  MR. RIDLEY:  Were there any tests

         12   administered to your staff on their understanding of the

         13   pre-service or in-service training they received about

         14   sexual assault?  Were they tested on this?

13:11    15                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I know -- I know that

         16   they are tested but that I'm unsure of, sir.  I don't

         17   recall.

         18                  MR. RIDLEY:  Yeah.  And what happened if

         19   they flunked?

13:11    20                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I would suppose they

         21   would have to retake that session again.

         22                  MR. RIDLEY:  Was it considered if their

         23   -- in decisions for promotion of staff, their

         24   performance on PREA-related tests or quizzes?

13:11    25                  WARDEN MORGAN:  No, sir, not that I'm
                                                                    54

13:11     1   aware of.

          2                  MS. ELLIS:  Mr. Castillo, are you

          3   satisfied that your staff has been adequately trained

          4   regarding PREA?

13:11     5                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Somewhat, but you could

          6   always use additional training.

          7                  MR. RIDLEY:  But isn't it fair that you

          8   can motivate folks a little bit better if there are

          9   consequences to sleeping through the training?  In other

13:12    10   words, it has implications for their promotion, that

         11   will get their attention real quick, won't it?

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.  Another

         13   thing that I might want to interject is that most times

         14   nowadays when an employee applies for a promotion, on a

13:12    15   promotion board most likely what you are going to see is

         16   PREA-related questions.  That has occurred.  That has

         17   happened many times.

         18                  MR. RIDLEY:  Mr. Morgan, if a staff

         19   member wanted to get away with a sexual relationship or

13:13    20   encounter at Estelle, when and where would they do it?

         21                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, you know, I don't

         22   know of a specific time.  You know, anywhere, I would

         23   suppose, that it's an isolated area that a person is

         24   left alone, you know, where there is not as many --

13:13    25   staff intensive and there is not very many people around
                                                                    55

13:13     1   and I would assume probably at night would be -- or late

          2   at night when there is less staff, a lot of your -- your

          3   upper administration and so forth is not there, you

          4   know, possibly in the kitchen or laundry, too, you know,

13:13     5   they are just areas that are out of the way.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  In addition to the

          7   kitchen or laundry, where else would you want to --

          8   well, do you think are the more vulnerable or dangerous

          9   areas for either staff-on-inmate or inmate-on-inmate

13:14    10   sexual activity?

         11                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Closets maybe.  You know,

         12   any -- anytime when you have an administrative

         13   segregation, the high-security type where you have got

         14   inmates that are in cells that are locked up, you know,

13:14    15   rounds have to be made every thirty minutes to check on

         16   everybody and, you know, that's why -- one of those

         17   reasons why we are making those rounds to be sure that

         18   everybody is okay and if there is anything going on or

         19   that's, you know, that's not within the rules and

13:14    20   regulations that we address those issues.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  Isn't it true that you

         22   could have a couple inmates in the meat cutting locker,

         23   in the kitchen prep area, for up to thirty minutes

         24   unsupervised without a correctional officer present and

13:15    25   with no windows into that facility?
                                                                    56

13:15     1                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir, I suppose

          2   that's a possibility.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Castillo, is that

          4   still a possibility?

13:15     5                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir, it could

          6   happen.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  And in the laundry, do

          8   you still have just three officers supervising the

          9   laundry during the first shift?

13:15    10                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  And you can have how many

         12   inmates in there working with -- working around those

         13   large washers and dryers?

         14                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Approximately sixty

13:15    15   inmates.

         16                  MR. McFARLAND:  There are lots of spaces

         17   around those -- around that equipment where they would

         18   not be in view of any of those three officers; isn't

         19   that true?

13:15    20                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  If -- if you had the

         22   wherewithal to put in more video cameras, where would

         23   you put them?

         24                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Those would be ideal

13:16    25   areas to put cameras on.  Your housing areas, your
                                                                    57

13:16     1   laundry service, your kitchen areas, commissary in the

          2   kitchen, but also we shouldn't forget housing areas.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Tell me more about the

          4   housing area.  Where would you want to put video cameras

13:16     5   in the housing areas?

          6                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  On the runs.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  Do you have any now?

          8                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  In the day rooms.  Yes,

          9   high-security has video cameras.

13:16    10                  MR. McFARLAND:  High-security as in the

         11   Ad-Seg?

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  The Ad-Seg, yes, sir.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah, I saw those, but

         14   you don't have any in -- in the general population?

13:16    15                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

         16                  MR. McFARLAND:  So on none of those tiers

         17   that we saw are there video cameras even on the runs?

         18                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

         19                  MR. McFARLAND:  And there are obviously

13:17    20   no cameras looking into what is happening in the cells,

         21   right?

         22                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

         23                  MR. McFARLAND:  How about on the runs of

         24   the safekeeping cells?

13:17    25                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.
                                                                    58

13:17     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  Where else would you --

          2   let me ask that of Mr. Morgan.  Mr. Morgan, if you had

          3   had the opportunity to install more cameras, where would

          4   you want to put them in order to prevent sexual

13:17     5   assaults?

          6                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I would -- I would go

          7   along with Mr. Castillo, what -- the recommendations

          8   that he had made.  Possibly in the reception area where

          9   the inmates come in from the chain, probably in that

13:17    10   area, too.

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  Do you have the -- in

         12   '06, did you have enough staff available to monitor more

         13   video cameras if you had had them?

         14                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Possibly, depending on

13:18    15   how it was set up.

         16                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, how would it need

         17   to be set up for you to pull it off?

         18                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, if you put that

         19   many cameras up, you are going to have to have a big

13:18    20   bank of cameras somewhere --

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir.

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  -- for staff to observe

         23   and watch what is going on and, you know, the control

         24   picket would be a place.  But, you know, back in the

13:18    25   kitchen, I would say you'd almost have to have a staff
                                                                    59

13:18     1   member monitoring in those areas, in that general area

          2   where the cameras are located at.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Now, Mr. Castillo, the

          4   video cameras that you do have, are those recorded or

13:18     5   live monitored only?

          6                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Live monitored.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  You don't keep -- you

          8   don't videotape what is going on in the high-security

          9   runs?

13:19    10                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  Do you think that would

         12   be a good idea to -- so that you didn't have to have

         13   officers monitoring continuously live feed but you could

         14   -- you could have the feed, you know, videotaped and

13:19    15   then fast forwarded, or for proof purposes you could go

         16   back and say:  Oh, at 2 a.m., son of a gun, the officer

         17   Smith is, in fact, going into the closet with inmate

         18   Jones?

         19                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir, that would be

13:19    20   an excellent idea.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  What is keeping you from

         22   being able to do that, dollars?

         23                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, I don't know --

         24   Mr. Quarterman.

13:20    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, you've got -- we
                                                                    60

13:20     1   heard from Mr. Quarterman and Mr. Livingston that it's

          2   one of the highest priorities of TDCJ is to no longer be

          3   labeled with these kinds of survey numbers and I -- and

          4   my question to you, Mr. Castillo, is how high a priority

13:20     5   would it be for you to --

          6                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  That would be a Number

          7   1 priority.

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  How you all doing?  I got

          9   -- we've got more questions, but I don't want to make

13:20    10   this an endurance contest.  Anybody need to take a break

         11   or?

         12                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I'm ready to roll.

         13                  MS. HOWELL:  I think that -- I think --

         14   this is Sharon speaking.  I think that we would all do

13:21    15   well with like a five-minute break just to move.

         16                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.  We'll take --

         17   we'll just leave you on here and take five minutes.

         18                  MS. HOWELL:  Thank you.

         19                  MR. McFARLAND:  Thank you.

13:27    20                  (Short break held)

         21                  MR. RIDLEY:  Mr. Morgan, Mr. Castillo?

         22                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir?

         23                  MR. RIDLEY:  When you heard about the

         24   survey, okay, however you heard about it, when you heard

13:28    25   the numbers, okay, were awesome and not very healthy,
                                                                    61

13:28     1   why do you think the survey numbers were as they are?

          2                  MR. McFARLAND:  Start with Mr. Castillo.

          3                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Sir, honestly, I don't

          4   know.  I don't know why Estelle's numbers were that

13:28     5   high.

          6                  WARDEN MORGAN:  And may -- I was there

          7   during that span of time.  This is Warden Morgan.

          8                  MR. RIDLEY:  Yes, sir.

          9                  WARDEN MORGAN:  If that many -- if that

13:28    10   much activity was going on, they -- it -- it would be

         11   near to impossible for not to know that that many things

         12   were going on and not be brought to light.  I just --

         13   really it just dumbfounds me that it would be that high.

         14   I don't have an excuse or why it happened.  I don't

13:29    15   know, but we have trained staff and that is just an

         16   exorbitant amount of numbers and that's -- today is the

         17   first day I even knew that and it's just stunning to me.

         18                  MR. RIDLEY:  Had you heard about the

         19   report before today?

13:29    20                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I have been gone for over

         21   a year.

         22                  MR. RIDLEY:  So you did not hear about

         23   the report until today?

         24                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That -- that the results

13:29    25   of it, yes, sir.
                                                                    62

13:29     1                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  When the survey was

          2   being conducted, what was your posture?

          3                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I -- you know, to my

          4   recollection, and I vaguely remember I believe when

13:29     5   those people came, was that, you know, I -- you know, go

          6   back there and accommodate these folks, do whatever we

          7   need to do to, you know, to get this thing done and, you

          8   know, full cooperation.  I mean, I would have -- if

          9   somebody would have told me that day I would have -- it

13:30    10   would have floored me.  I just -- it just really still

         11   it stuns me now.  I just can't believe it's that high.

         12                  MR. RIDLEY:  You know about the climate

         13   and the culture in the Estelle Unit, right?

         14                  WARDEN MORGAN:  At the time, yes, sir,

13:30    15   when I was there.

         16                  MR. RIDLEY:  What do you think the

         17   climate was as it related to sexual assaults?

         18                  WARDEN MORGAN:  The climate, well, as I

         19   see it, sir, what we did, we followed procedures that

13:30    20   were in place.  I mean I -- you know, I -- I was in that

         21   hallway every day.  I'd sit at the desk out there along

         22   the cellblocks, and I do that to make myself available.

         23   If that many things were going on, I just -- I just

         24   can't believe that someone would not have come up to me

13:30    25   and told me:  Warden Morgan, you're not going to believe
                                                                    63

13:30     1   what is going on around here.  I mean, that's just --

          2   that many people, even if it was half that many, a

          3   fourth of that many, I can't believe that someone would

          4   not come forward and say:  Warden Morgan, this is going

13:31     5   on.  Or staff:  If that many staff members are

          6   participating, they're -- I mean we've got some great

          7   staff at Estelle that -- that I just -- there would have

          8   been some word that would have come up to say this is

          9   going on.

13:31    10                  MR. RIDLEY:  Mr. Castillo, what do you

         11   think?

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, like I said

         13   awhile ago, sir, I was just stunned.  I can't believe

         14   those numbers.  I mean that's just too high, and I'm

13:31    15   going to reemphasize what Warden Morgan indicated.  If

         16   you're out there in the hallway and just -- and if you

         17   take an active role in your unit operations, your

         18   day-to-day operations, you would have heard.  Even if

         19   there was one or two, you would have heard that.  And

13:32    20   we're talking about a hundred and what, 25, or 250?

         21   That's just too high, sir.

         22                  MR. RIDLEY:  What do you attribute that

         23   to?

         24                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Maybe more awareness.

13:32    25                  MR. RIDLEY:  Explain.
                                                                    64

13:32     1                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Making the inmate

          2   population aware in prevention of sexual assaults, pat

          3   searching, maybe an increase in the pat searching, strip

          4   searching.

13:32     5                  MR. RIDLEY:  I'm sorry, are you saying,

          6   Mr. Castillo, that that may be the reason why the

          7   reports of numbers are so high is because of those

          8   activities?

          9                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir, but I think

13:33    10   more -- I'm going to lean more towards awareness.

         11                  MR. RIDLEY:  Oh, so the more --

         12                  MS. ELLIS:  I have a --

         13                  MR. RIDLEY:  Go ahead.

         14                  MS. ELLIS:  I have a question about that.

13:33    15   Sir, you -- you indicate that you think the reason might

         16   be that people are better informed about sexual assault,

         17   that might account for the numbers?

         18                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, ma'am.

         19                  MS. ELLIS:  I don't understand that.

13:33    20   Help me understand that -- that rationale, that now that

         21   I'm informed about it I might be more willing to talk

         22   about it, tell the truth about it or use it?

         23                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Maybe more the

         24   advertising that we do, the more training that we do,

13:33    25   now inmates are familiar and are aware they can at any
                                                                    65

13:33     1   time report --

          2                  MS. ELLIS:  I see.  I see.

          3                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  That we're more

          4   approachable.

13:33     5                  MS. ELLIS:  So that -- so I see.  That

          6   would be a positive -- a positive way --

          7                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes.

          8                  MS. ELLIS:  -- explaining, that now that

          9   inmates are more aware of sexual assaults and their

13:34    10   rights as victims of sexual assault --

         11                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  That's what I'm getting

         12   to.

         13                  MS. ELLIS:  -- they would be more

         14   comfortable in coming forth and reporting that these

13:34    15   events, this behavior is taking place?

         16                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Could possibly be, yes.

         17                  MR. RIDLEY:  Mr. Morgan, do you agree

         18   with that, that -- that more training about a sexual

         19   assault and the fact that it's illegal, the fact that

13:34    20   it's zero tolerance and that you should definitely

         21   report it, that that may be one of the reasons why the

         22   numbers in the survey are so high for Estelle?

         23                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir, that possibly

         24   could be, yes, sir.

13:34    25                  MR. RIDLEY:  Well, then, I hear both of
                                                                    66

13:34     1   you saying that the numbers quite likely could be true?

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I don't believe they are.

          3                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  I don't believe that

          4   those numbers are true, sir.

13:35     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.  Well, then

          6   I'm -- I'm sorry, I'm a little confused here.  Seems to

          7   me that if -- if numbers are real high, there are at

          8   least two explanations, one, the inmates are lying or,

          9   Number 2, the inmates now know that they're not going to

13:35    10   get punished for reporting what actually happened, and I

         11   just heard both of you say that you think the greater

         12   training has produced more of the latter, more of the

         13   reporting, being -- folks being free to report on what

         14   has actually been happening.  I didn't hear either one

13:35    15   of you say that, gee, I think talking about sex so much

         16   just gave these inmates a malicious idea on how they

         17   could screw their wardens or -- or officers they don't

         18   like.  Neither one of you suggested that and I thought

         19   your testimony under oath just now was that you thought

13:35    20   this is a good thing, we're training them, we're telling

         21   them they ought to report it and they are.  So I'm a

         22   little confused.  Why do you not think that the numbers

         23   are accurate?  Let me put it in the positive.  Why don't

         24   you believe the numbers?

13:36    25                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, you -- this is
                                                                    67

13:36     1   Warden Morgan.  If I may continue what we had started to

          2   speak about awhile ago, and that was my -- the very next

          3   thing is -- what I was going to say is I think that

          4   those numbers are skewed for the very fact that I think,

13:36     5   you know, and I believe that you can understand that any

          6   time you're housing people against their will and

          7   keeping them there, they don't want to be there.

          8   They're unhappy.  They -- nine times out of ten they

          9   don't like -- you know, they are going to have

13:36    10   retribution against the facility when they can.  That's

         11   just a reality.  Now, I'm not saying every one of those

         12   are, but I believe that a large part of that is -- I

         13   believe that that's part of the issue right there.  But

         14   now, that's my opinion.

13:36    15                  MR. RIDLEY:  Why would the Estelle Unit's

         16   number be so high?

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I don't know, sir.

         18                  MR. RIDLEY:  I don't disagree that

         19   inmates, you know, have the potential to get back, do

13:37    20   all other kind of things, but comparatively speaking

         21   from a national perspective --

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

         23                  MR. RIDLEY:  -- why are the Estelle Unit

         24   numbers so high?

13:37    25                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Other than, you know,
                                                                    68

13:37     1   what we have already talked about, sir, I don't know.

          2                  MR. RIDLEY:  Any speculation?

          3                  WARDEN MORGAN:  No, sir.

          4                  MR. McFARLAND:  Are there any other

13:37     5   explanations, gentlemen, and we're -- again, this is not

          6   a criminal inquisition.  We're just trying to really dig

          7   down into what can be done to make zero tolerance a

          8   reality, not just in your facilities but everywhere in

          9   the country.  And I know that you share, or trust that

13:38    10   you share, that goal, so we're trying to figure out

         11   what -- what's the cause of these high numbers.  And can

         12   you think of any third explanation other than the

         13   inmates are lying or the inmates are now freed up to

         14   tell the truth?  Is there any other third explanation

13:38    15   for why the numbers should point to Estelle as being --

         16   having the highest prevalence of sexual assault in the

         17   country?  Can you think of any other reason?

         18                  WARDEN MORGAN:  No, sir.  As we -- as --

         19   this is Warden Morgan.  As I had said before, I mean, we

13:38    20   -- you know, I feel like we have a great program in

         21   place with our safekeeping, Safe Prisons Plan.  You

         22   know, something that we hadn't touched on as well is our

         23   intelligence.  We have our gang intelligence officers,

         24   we have an extortion officer, we have a lot of people

13:39    25   that are out there in the population, not just myself
                                                                    69

13:39     1   and the staff but in OIG; we have a lot of people that

          2   are out there that are gathering information and

          3   looking, you know, for things that are not right.  And I

          4   have full confidence in the staff that I had then and I

13:39     5   have confidence in that staff now, that if those things

          6   were going on, they would have brought it to attention.

          7                  MS. ELLIS:  So then it's -- you really

          8   doubt or don't believe that those things were happening

          9   to this degree that the numbers indicate?

13:39    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I'm not going to say that

         11   -- you know, I'm not going to say the number, but I

         12   would say that is a very large amount, a number that I

         13   just don't understand it.  I just don't believe that --

         14   I'm not going to say it's perfect, but I don't believe

13:39    15   it's -- I can't say that it's that high.

         16                  MS. ELLIS:  Do you feel stigmatized by

         17   that, by those numbers and that they have been released

         18   throughout the nation, and certainly it casts a certain

         19   light on Estelle?

13:40    20                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I take it

         21   personally myself.

         22                  MS. ELLIS:  Do you?

         23                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir -- yes, ma'am, I

         24   do, and it -- and, you know, that's -- that's why

13:40    25   this -- when I got here today, that's the first time
                                                                    70

13:40     1   that I had heard that the number was that high, and it

          2   -- that really -- it really bothers me.

          3                  MS. ELLIS:  I'm amazed that you hadn't

          4   heard this before, that this information has been public

13:40     5   for some time and we certainly spent some time there in

          6   Texas talking about it and you have not had any

          7   discussions with your colleagues about what their

          8   thoughts might have been about the numbers.  I find that

          9   -- that a bit surprising.

13:40    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I'm in Louisiana now.

         11                  MS. ELLIS:  But still no -- no feedback

         12   or no contact with folks in Texas, particularly about

         13   something that's this important?

         14                  WARDEN MORGAN:  This is the first time

13:40    15   that I have even talked to Warden Castillo since he took

         16   my place, ma'am.

         17                  MS. ELLIS:  Oh, I see.

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Castillo, how many

         19   inmates -- what is the count today?

13:41    20                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Approximately 3285.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  And how many Cos do you

         22   have on staff?

         23                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Currently 500.

         24                  MR. McFARLAND:  Is that total staff or

13:41    25   custodial staff?
                                                                    71

13:41     1                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, that's currently

          2   security staff.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  And that's over

          4   all three shifts, right?

13:41     5                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, but I am

          6   short-staffed.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  How many -- what's

          8   your turnover rate for staff at Estelle?  In other

          9   words, how many openings open up every year at Estelle?

13:41    10                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, right now

         11   currently I'm 200 -- I have 200 vacancies for

         12   correctional staff.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  200 out of -- and how

         14   many do you need?  If you were fully -- what would you

13:42    15   define as fully-staffed?

         16                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  701.

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  And how -- what is the

         18   turnover rate among the rookies that come your way?

         19                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  On any given month,

13:42    20   possibility I lose maybe five.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  Five out of how many --

         22   how many rookies do you get every month?

         23                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, I'm talking about

         24   five staff members per month.  On an average, three to

13:42    25   five resign their positions.  We also work a lot of
                                                                    72

13:42     1   overtime.  We allow employees from other units to come

          2   and work overtime.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  And that's because you're

          4   -- you have so many vacancies?

13:43     5                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  And do you pay time and a

          7   half for overtime?

          8                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  So it would be a lot

13:43    10   cheaper to fill those vacancies, huh?

         11                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         12                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Morgan, is that --

         13   was that the case at Estelle in '06, that you had a lot

         14   of vacancies and you'd prefer not to be paying overtime

13:43    15   for it?

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir, we were

         17   probably along those lines, yes, sir.

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  What was in '06 your

         19   desired ratio of custodial staff to inmates?

13:43    20                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I would think probably

         21   somewhere either three or four to one ideally, and I

         22   think that's from the Ruiz --

         23                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah, yeah.  Four

         24   custodial -- four inmates to every one custodial

13:43    25   officer?
                                                                    73

13:43     1                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I believe so and I'm

          2   going by my memory.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Castillo, is that --

          4   would you agree?

13:44     5                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  How and where would you

          7   deploy additional staff if you had those 200 vacancies

          8   filled?  Where would you most -- where would be the --

          9   for every vacancy you fill, where would you want to --

13:44    10   where would you first put the new staff?

         11                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, you're --

         12                  MR. McFARLAND:  And I'm directing it to

         13   Mr. Morgan.

         14                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.  What I would

13:44    15   like to say first, sir, is that -- and let me explain

         16   this to better help you understand.  We were

         17   short-handed, as you say.  We have a staffing plan that

         18   is set forth that we have to go by that has all of the

         19   positions that we have to man.  Every one of those

13:44    20   positions have been manned, to assure for safety

         21   purposes for the staff and the inmates both.  We may

         22   have had to pay overtime to accomplish that, but we have

         23   never worked in short-handed where we left a position in

         24   a housing area open, we never did anything like that and

13:45    25   I would imagine that's still the case today.
                                                                    74

13:45     1                  MR. RIDLEY:  Mr. Morgan?

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

          3                  MR. RIDLEY:  What is your critical

          4   minimum?

13:45     5                  WARDEN MORGAN:  On a shift?

          6                  MR. RIDLEY:  Yes, sir.

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  And I'm going by my

          8   memory.  It's been -- I would -- I would think it was

          9   forty-two or forty-six, depending on the shift.

13:45    10                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  That's what it is,

         11   forty-two.

         12                  MR. RIDLEY:  Was that Mr. Castillo

         13   confirming forty-two?

         14                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

13:45    15                  MR. RIDLEY:  Per shift?

         16                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         17                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  Can we go through

         18   each shift, please?

         19                  WARDEN MORGAN:  What do you mean each

13:45    20   shift?

         21                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  Number 1 shift, what

         22   is your critical minimum?

         23                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Sir, I don't -- I don't

         24   remember.

13:45    25                  MR. RIDLEY:  Mr. Castillo?
                                                                    75

13:45     1                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Approximately, I would

          2   -- on first shift that you would need to man would be

          3   close to forty, forty to forty-five.

          4                  MR. RIDLEY:  Forty to forty-five.  Number

13:46     5   2?

          6                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  It's less, but -- it's

          7   less than forty-five.

          8                  MR. RIDLEY:  Do you run twelve-hour

          9   shifts?

13:46    10                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  There's a twelve-hour

         11   shift in high-security.

         12                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  What about Number 3

         13   shift, what is the critical minimum?

         14                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  I don't know.  I don't

13:46    15   know.

         16                  MR. RIDLEY:  At some point could you get

         17   that to us?

         18                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes.

         19                  WARDEN MORGAN:  It just -- we just have

13:46    20   to look at the staffing plan.

         21                  MR. RIDLEY:  Sure.  I understand.

         22                  MS. HOWELL:  Mr. Quarterman -- this is

         23   Sharon.  Mr. Quarterman has indicated that he can get

         24   the numbers for you.  We believe that we may have it in

13:46    25   a document close at hand.
                                                                    76

13:47     1                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  Now, in order to meet

          2   your critical minimums, you go to overtime?

          3                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

          4                  MR. RIDLEY:  How do you select for

13:47     5   overtime?

          6                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Volunteers.

          7                  MR. RIDLEY:  They get on a list?

          8                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

          9                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  Do you have a

13:47    10   requirement that they can only work so many hours of

         11   overtime --

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         13                  MR. RIDLEY:  -- per week?

         14                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

13:47    15                  MR. RIDLEY:  What might that be?

         16                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Sixteen.

         17                  MR. RIDLEY:  They can only work

         18   sixteen hours of overtime per week?

         19                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, no, no, per day, no

13:47    20   more than sixteen.

         21                  MR. RIDLEY:  Could they work

         22   sixteen hours a day, five days a week?

         23                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes.

         24                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  How do you look at

13:48    25   the fatigue factor?
                                                                    77

13:48     1                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Oh, that's Number 1.

          2   You have to be very careful and they have to take a day

          3   off within their schedule.  One day off is required.

          4   They must have one day of rest in between schedules.

13:48     5                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  So could you have, or

          6   let me ask you:  Do you have, Mr. Castillo, staff who

          7   are working sixteen hours a day two, three, four,

          8   five days consecutively?

          9                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Oh, yeah, that can

13:48    10   happen.

         11                  MR. RIDLEY:  And if they had the one day

         12   off after five days, they can do another sixteen-hour

         13   day on the seventh day?

         14                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes.

13:48    15                  MR. RIDLEY:  Does that happen now?

         16                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Not necessarily, not

         17   sixteen hours.  Most of the times it's twelve hours.

         18                  MR. RIDLEY:  So you could have somebody

         19   who could work sixty hours in six days with the one day

13:49    20   after -- one day off after five days; is that correct?

         21                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Right.

         22                  MR. RIDLEY:  And that same employee could

         23   then come in and do another twelve or sixteen hours for

         24   a total of seventy-two to seventy-six hours in a seven

13:49    25   -- over seven days; is that correct?  Does that happen?
                                                                    78

13:49     1                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sixty hours is

          2   total.

          3                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  You could do -- well,

          4   I think we get that, yeah.  Do you pay time and a half

13:49     5   for over forty hours or is it time and a half over

          6   eight hours on a day?

          7                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, it's over forty.

          8                  MR. RIDLEY:  So do they get -- do they

          9   get time and a half for working more than eight hours in

13:50    10   a day?  In other words, if they did sixteen hours, you

         11   know, for a couple of days, have they earned any

         12   overtime?

         13                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, they would.

         14                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Time and a half.

13:50    15                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes.

         16                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  I'm sorry.  I'm a

         17   little confused.  If -- if I work a sixteen-hour day two

         18   days in a row, I've now logged thirty-two hours, and

         19   then I don't work the rest of the week, do you owe me

13:50    20   any overtime?

         21                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No.

         22                  MR. RIDLEY:  Am I correct in my

         23   understanding that the qualifications for being a

         24   custodial officer at Estelle are minimum age of

13:51    25   eighteen, no felonies, and no drug misdemeanors; is that
                                                                    79

13:51     1   correct?

          2                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

          3                  MR. RIDLEY:  Are there any other

          4   qualifications, any educational or other work-related

13:51     5   minimums?

          6                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

          7                  MR. RIDLEY:  Do they have to have a GED?

          8                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

          9                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  Do you have -- would

13:51    10   you like to see, Mr. Castillo, the addition of more

         11   qualifications than that?

         12                  Would you like to be more selective or

         13   are you in such a pickle trying to get enough bodies

         14   there, that the last thing you can afford is being more

13:52    15   selective?

         16                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  I would like to be more

         17   selective, sir.

         18                  MS. ELLIS:  And Mr. Castillo, would you

         19   like to see a physical fitness program implemented?

13:52    20                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir -- yes, ma'am.

         21                  MS. ELLIS:  I see.  Mr. Morgan, during

         22   your time there, was there ever any effort to institute

         23   a physical fitness program?

         24                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, ma'am.  Out in our

13:52    25   officer BOQ we have weights out there for the officers
                                                                    80

13:52     1   and we had a -- within the department back then, we had

          2   a fitness program that we had going on that encouraged

          3   -- it wasn't a requirement.  I believe it was called the

          4   WIN Program, I can't remember what that stood for,

13:52     5   Wellness Initiative something, but we -- yes, ma'am, we

          6   did encourage staff to participate in that and we did

          7   keep up with it during the year.

          8                  MS. ELLIS:  Was it successful?

          9                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, ma'am, I think it

13:53    10   was.  Some of our folks lost weight and did better, and

         11   we often always have tried to do that.  I mean, of

         12   course, some staff participate and some don't.  It

         13   wasn't a mandatory program, I guess, is what I'm trying

         14   to say.

13:53    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  Gentlemen, let me ask you

         16   about the eleven inmate-on-inmate sexual assaults

         17   allegations that are reported by TDCJ on three pages

         18   dated Wednesday, February 27th, 2008.  Have you got that

         19   three-page document?

13:53    20                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.  And knowing

         22   that this transcript will be public, I have agreed with

         23   your counsel that I will not use the names of the

         24   offenders or any of the other names, so I'm just going

13:54    25   to walk down this list and use the EAC number, and if
                                                                    81

13:54     1   you could respond to the particular question, that would

          2   be great.

          3                  Now, Mr. Morgan, these are all on your

          4   watch --

13:54     5                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  -- and I understand

          7   they're allegations, they're not necessarily sustained,

          8   but we're interested in -- in just how they played out,

          9   and I realize you haven't -- this has been a couple of

13:54    10   years and you have been away from the whole system for a

         11   year, but just tell me your best recollection because I

         12   think you testified earlier that you consider these

         13   felonies and they're -- the one instance was at least

         14   indelibly burned into your mind, so maybe some of these

13:54    15   will -- you'll be able to recall, as well.

         16                  The first one, EAC Number 01-06.  It's --

         17   I guess it's 00196-01-06.  This one is in litigation,

         18   and so I'm not -- with agreement by your counsel, I'm

         19   not going to ask about that one.

13:55    20                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Okay.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  The second one is 02-066,

         22   and my question is, what happened to the alleged

         23   perpetrator who allegedly used a handmade screwdriver

         24   and forced the victim to perform oral sex?

13:55    25                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I have got the
                                                                    82

13:55     1   disposition on that here now.  I was just consulting

          2   with Sharon -- could I go ahead and -- but I'm going to

          3   tell you the truth, very little do I -- from memory do I

          4   have of these issues.

13:56     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  Oh, well, go ahead and

          6   consult your -- the --

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I  -- she said --

          8   go ahead, Sharon.

          9                  MS. HOWELL:  If I can interject at this

13:56    10   point.  What Mr. Morgan is looking at is the updated

         11   alleged sexual assault list that we had promised to

         12   provide to the Panel.  And on that updated list we have

         13   a disposition, I believe, for each alleged perpetrator.

         14                  MR. McFARLAND:  Great.

13:56    15                  MS. HOWELL:  Okay.  And the Panel will be

         16   supplied with this list, I believe, later in the day if

         17   we can send it electronically.

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay, and so I want to be

         19   cognizant of everybody's time.  Ms. Howell, are you

13:56    20   saying that if I was to look at the document you have in

         21   front of you, it's going to answer all our questions

         22   about what happened to the alleged perpetrator in each

         23   case, each of these eleven reports?

         24                  MS. HOWELL:  Yes, sir.

13:56    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  Then I'm not going
                                                                    83

13:56     1   to belabor it.  I appreciate that.  But let me just ask

          2   some other questions.  On the third one, 02250, reported

          3   on February 27th, '06, it says that there was no rape

          4   kit used, quote, due to time lapse.  How many days

13:57     5   lapsed such that a rape kit was no longer worth using?

          6                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That is -- I don't know

          7   the exact time, but that would be determined by our

          8   Office of the Inspector General, the police entity

          9   within the department.

13:57    10                  MR. McFARLAND:  Isn't there a -- isn't

         11   there a department-wide portion of the Safe Prison Plan

         12   that says:  Hey, you run a rape kit unless the victim

         13   says this happened more than ninety-six hours or more

         14   than, you know, 120 hours or more than forty-eight hours

13:57    15   or something?

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  What was your

         18   understanding, Mr. Morgan, as to what that deadline was?

         19                  WARDEN MORGAN:  To me -- to me, I would

13:58    20   have deferred to the Office of Inspector General.  As

         21   the police entity, they were handling the investigation

         22   and made the determination whether to do it or not.

         23                  MR. McFARLAND:  So you don't have -- you

         24   don't have an understanding of what the -- how many days

13:58    25   would each have; is that right, sir?
                                                                    84

13:58     1                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Ninety-six hours within

          2   the Safe Prison.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Oh, okay.  So your

          4   testimony is that in '06 a rape kit should have been run

13:58     5   on a -- on these alleged sexual assaults if it happened

          6   within ninety-six hours?  Did I understand that fully?

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir, I believe

          8   that's coming from the Safe Prison, yes, sir.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  Are you referring

13:58    10   to the Safe Prison Plan for that answer or is this your

         11   recollection?

         12                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, really my

         13   recollection.

         14                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  All right.  What

13:59    15   -- I notice in that -- in the second, third, fourth,

         16   fifth, seventh, eighth -- in other words, just about

         17   every one of these, ninth and eleventh and tenth, all

         18   but one of them say that the offender was seen by

         19   medical and mental health services.

13:59    20                  Mr. Morgan, what was your understanding

         21   of what was supposed to be -- what services were

         22   supposed to be rendered by mental health for someone

         23   alleging inmate-on-inmate sexual assault?

         24                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I guess for any

13:59    25   type of issues that they might need to talk about or
                                                                    85

13:59     1   need help with in counseling and so forth.

          2                  MR. McFARLAND:  Can you be specific what

          3   -- and, you know, obviously you don't need to guess.

          4   Did you know what your staff and mental health should

14:00     5   have been providing to a victim or an alleged victim of

          6   an inmate-on-inmate sexual assault?

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I would suppose

          8   that one issue would be, of course, for the possibility

          9   of suicide -- is why we would want to talk to them

14:00    10   immediately, but the medical department -- and as going

         11   through the Office of Inspector General, whether a

         12   forensic examination was going to be required or not,

         13   would -- would be to them as them being the

         14   investigative branch.

14:00    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Morgan, directing

         16   your attention to Page 2, this is the sixth report.

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  Number 05986-05-06.

         19                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

14:01    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  It indicates on the

         21   fourth line that underwear have been changed.  Was it

         22   ever located?

         23                  WARDEN MORGAN:  From my recollection,

         24   sir, I don't know.

14:01    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, I wouldn't expect
                                                                    86

14:01     1   you to remember that but I mean does --

          2                  Counsel, the information you are going to

          3   provide us on disposition, does it have any information

          4   about evidence?

14:01     5                  MS. HOWELL:  I don't believe it has

          6   additional information about evidence.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  Do you have anything that

          8   would shed some light on this particular -- this

          9   particular case?  The reason why I am honing in on this

14:01    10   is obviously it's one thing to have a lot of written

         11   policies and it's another -- it's more illuminating to

         12   know how it actually works or doesn't work.  So that's

         13   why I'm wondering, was an effort made to locate the

         14   underwear of an individual who allegedly had been raped?

14:02    15                  MS. HOWELL:  And if I can interject right

         16   here, I'm sure that there was and I'm sure that it was

         17   done at the direction of the Office of Inspector

         18   General, and they are going to be the ones who are going

         19   to have the information about whether the underwear was

14:02    20   located and what was done because they take very

         21   seriously their jobs about preserving crime scenes and

         22   the collection of evidence, so we're not going to have

         23   it.

         24                  MR. McFARLAND:  That is great.  So, Ms.

14:02    25   Howell, I am just going to ask on the record then, if --
                                                                    87

14:02     1   because I think it will be responsive to -- we're

          2   talking about the Estelle Unit, it's not the whole TDCJ,

          3   and we're talking about sexual assault in particular and

          4   we're talking about it happening in 2006.  Needless to

14:02     5   say, probably isn't much more important information, at

          6   least from my perspective, than knowing exactly how were

          7   these reports investigated -- were they investigated

          8   consistent with the way Mr. Morgan, the warden, wanted

          9   them to be and what he expected?  So may I ask that of

14:03    10   Mr. Quarterman, if you would provide and you'll

         11   supplement any information that the OIG can provide us

         12   on any of these eleven alleged IOIs?

         13                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Okay.  I believe

         14   that we can.  What I would like to tell you is that when

14:03    15   Warden Morgan was in charge of the Estelle Unit, we had

         16   --

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  Can I interrupt you for a

         18   second, Mr. Quarterman?

         19                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Uh-huh.

14:03    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  Let me just remind you

         21   that you're still under oath.  We are still convened

         22   under the earlier deal and I won't ask you to swear

         23   again --

         24                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Okay.

14:03    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  -- but just you are under
                                                                    88

14:03     1   testimony.

          2                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Okay.  Well, great.

          3   What I was going to tell you is when Mr. Morgan was in

          4   charge of the Estelle Unit, we had the situation in

14:04     5   Texas where the OIG would not give those wardens the

          6   information that you're asking now.  It was -- it was

          7   done transparently.  It was clear transparent lines

          8   where it was no communications with my staff, my unit

          9   wardens in relation to the majority of these

14:04    10   allegations.  Once it's reported, we didn't get any

         11   information on these -- on those facts.  Well, this

         12   legislative session, they passed a law that's requiring

         13   them to communicate with me and I am meeting with them

         14   in the next week to talk about how we translate that

14:04    15   information and improve communications where we will

         16   know that kind of information to make the decisions that

         17   is necessary.  So the law was passed, and it was passed

         18   because of PREA, and it was passed to pass that

         19   information on to us and I can get my hands on what you

14:04    20   are asking for now --

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  Sweet.

         22                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  -- and we will do

         23   that and try to get anything we can relating to what did

         24   they do in their investigation because right now, it's

14:05    25   like a question mark to us when you ask us these
                                                                    89

14:05     1   questions because we should have been in the know and,

          2   you know, we're not.  So, it's been fixed by our

          3   legislators, so we were happy about that.

          4                  MR. McFARLAND:  That's great.  That's

14:05     5   great.  Well, then, Ms. Howell, would you just let me

          6   know when we can expect the OIG to provide that

          7   additional information about these eleven incidents?

          8                  MS. HOWELL:  I shall.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  Thank you so much.  Thank

14:05    10   you, Mr. Quarterman.

         11                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Okay.

         12                  MR. McFARLAND:  Let me just direct, Mr.

         13   Morgan, your attention to the seventh incident, 07931.

         14   It says under disposition that the UCC, which is the

14:05    15   Unit Classification Committee; is that correct?

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  Recommended that the

         18   offender, the alleged assailant, be released back to GP.

         19   Why would that ever be done?

14:06    20                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I'm reading -- just a

         21   second, please, sir.  Well, the only reason that I could

         22   say, sir, is that they felt that there was not enough

         23   there to pursue the investigation, I would assume.  I

         24   don't have the whole thing there.  That's my assumption.

14:06    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  Does the UCC keep files
                                                                    90

14:06     1   on their investigations of felonies?

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.  It should be

          3   in the packet of information with the Safe Prisons forms

          4   and so forth.

14:06     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  Can we see whatever you

          6   have -- the UCC folks have on any of these eleven

          7   incidents?

          8                  MS. HOWELL:  Absolutely.  I hadn't

          9   understood before that you were not provided with the

14:06    10   individual OPIs, but we're delighted to follow up with

         11   that.

         12                  MR. McFARLAND:  Thank you so much.  Yeah.

         13   A three-page synopsis is everything we have got on these

         14   eleven IOIs.

14:07    15                  MS. HOWELL:  Okay.

         16                  MR. McFARLAND:  Then on, Mr. Morgan, the

         17   bottom of the second page 08377?

         18                  WARDEN MORGAN:  We're going back to the

         19   second page?

14:07    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir.  I was -- my

         21   previous question was also on the second page.

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Okay.  I'm sorry, sir.

         23                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  The bottom of that

         24   page, it indicates that, during the investigation, it

14:07    25   could not be determined who, which staff member, in
                                                                    91

14:07     1   other words, had escorted the alleged assailant to the

          2   cell of the victim.

          3                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Let me read right quick,

          4   please, sir.  And we're on the second page, third one,

14:08     5   526?

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  The fourth one at the

          7   bottom, EAC Number 08377-07-06.

          8                  WARDEN MORGAN:  And it's date reported

          9   5-26-06.

14:08    10                  MR. McFARLAND:  Date reported 7-20-06.

         11                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That's my third page.

         12   Okay.  I'm at the -- it's at the top of the page?

         13                  MS. HOWELL:  For the record, what

         14   Mr. Morgan is looking at is the updated list.  What the

14:08    15   Panel is looking at is the list that we have provided to

         16   them, so your page numbers are not going to match up

         17   exactly.

         18                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I'm sorry, sir.

         19                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay, no, I'm sorry.

14:08    20   Yeah, we're looking at the list as of February 27th, so

         21   we'll just rely on the EAC number.

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I'm with you.  7-10-06.

         23   Okay.  Your question again?

         24                  MR. McFARLAND:  7 -- 7-20-06, the one

14:08    25   right below that.  This is a case where the victim
                                                                    92

14:08     1   alleges that another -- that the assailant was escorted

          2   into his cell, and my question is:  Did you ever

          3   identify which staff member escorted this assailant?

          4   Because he was, in fact, found in the cell.  This isn't

14:09     5   just an allegation.  This guy, the alleged assailant,

          6   was found in the next shift in the wrong cell.

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Without -- without having

          8   that information, sir, in front of me, I -- I don't

          9   remember.

14:09    10                  MR. McFARLAND:  And as warden,

         11   Mr. Morgan, what would you have --

         12                  WARDEN MORGAN:  What comes to my mind,

         13   the first thing we should have done is gone back to the

         14   roster and find out who was working that wing.

14:09    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yep.

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  ... is exactly what we

         17   would have done and what I would have assumed.  I don't

         18   have the investigation in front of me to see who was

         19   working that wing, and if it wasn't that person, that

14:10    20   person was on the wing and should know who came on that

         21   wing.

         22                  MR. McFARLAND:  Would you consider this

         23   to be a serious breach of -- of rules by your staff?

         24                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Oh, yes, sir.  Yes, sir,

14:10    25   and I'm trying my best to remember if there was a --
                                                                    93

14:10     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  No, I'm assuming you are.

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I was -- I was

          3   trying to figure out who -- what action we took because

          4   we most certainly would have taken action on something

14:10     5   like that.  That's -- that's -- you can't tolerate that

          6   type of behavior.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  Is counsel -- well, what

          8   you are going to send us, the workup from either the UCC

          9   or -- and the OIG, are they going to answer questions

14:10    10   about this one, like what time this perpetrator was

         11   escorted, what time, what day, for that matter, it

         12   happened, because it indicates the rape kit was not used

         13   due to time lapse and so forth?

         14                  MS. HOWELL:  I think that you're likely

14:11    15   to have a substantial -- you're likely to get that

         16   information.

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  And counsel, I'm

         18   looking at the end of that paragraph of the synopsis.

         19   It says that the -- that the alleged assailant was

14:11    20   released from custody on 6-15-07.  Given the fact that

         21   it was reported on July 20, does that sit -- should that

         22   be an 8?  Was he released on August 15th, '07?  Oh, I'm

         23   sorry, you know what, that's '07, so that was eleven

         24   months later.

14:11    25                  MS. HOWELL:  Yes, sir.
                                                                    94

14:11     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  The OIG, about the --

          3   should have -- I mean they had this investigation.  That

          4   information should be in their investigation.

14:12     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  I'm looking at the

          6   -- the ninth incident.  This is EAC 12850, reported

          7   November 2nd, 2006.

          8                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  Have you had a chance to

14:12    10   review that?

         11                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I'm looking at it right

         12   now, sir.  Okay, sir.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  Is it true that this

         14   alleged victim had a past record of allegedly being

14:12    15   sexually assaulted three times in a seventh-month period

         16   in three different units?

         17                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  I have to get his

         18   file to see.

         19                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Sir, I don't know.

14:13    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, I'm --

         21                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Off the top of my head, I

         22   don't know.

         23                  MR. McFARLAND:  No, I'm looking at the

         24   fourth sentence.

14:13    25                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Okay.
                                                                    95

14:13     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  Investigations reveal

          2   that this offender has past records of allegedly being

          3   sexually assaulted on the Connally Unit in December of

          4   '03, the Clements Unit in February of '04, and the

14:13     5   Allred Unit in July of '04.  So in a seventh-month

          6   period, he allegedly was sexually assaulted in three

          7   different places?

          8                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  And this is a fourth

14:13    10   allegation?

         11                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Okay.

         12                  MR. McFARLAND:  How many sexual assaults

         13   have to -- does an inmate have to put up with before he

         14   gets safekeeping in Estelle in 2006?  What the heck was

14:14    15   this gentleman doing not in safekeeping but in general

         16   population when the past records indicated this?  Either

         17   he is a pervasive liar and he's been -- none of these

         18   incidents have been sustained or he is just a --

         19                  MS. ELLIS:  Major victim.

14:14    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  -- a major guinea pig, an

         21   assault waiting to happen?

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  And I understand what you

         23   are saying.  Without all of the information here, I

         24   can't really give you a good answer other than the other

14:14    25   issues were allegations as well, correct?
                                                                    96

14:14     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir.

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  But not that I'm saying

          3   he is right or wrong, but I -- without having that full

          4   information, I really -- it's hard for me to give you an

14:14     5   answer for that, but I understand where you are coming

          6   from, though.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, it doesn't matter

          8   where I'm coming from, it's where you're coming from.

          9   And I want to know, sir, if you had information as

14:14    10   warden of Estelle, that any inmate had previously

         11   alleged to have been sexually assaulted, would you have

         12   done anything about that?  Would you have given them --

         13   would you have put them in safekeeping or would you have

         14   ordered, you know, an investigation into whether that

14:15    15   earlier allegation had been sustained?  Would you have

         16   taken any action on the basis of one previous allegation

         17   in a different unit of being sexually assaulted?

         18                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I think that it

         19   would have come into play and I can't say whether I

14:15    20   would or not.  The indication is yes, from this, I

         21   would, but I would like to see the complete report

         22   before I would say I would or wouldn't.  The face value

         23   here from what I could see, yes, sir, it is a

         24   possibility it should have been.

14:15    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  So it's your sworn
                                                                    97

14:15     1   testimony, Mr. Morgan, that as the senior warden at

          2   Estelle in 2006, it would have been your pattern or

          3   practice to put in safekeeping an inmate who had

          4   previously alleged that he had been sexually assaulted

14:16     5   in another unit?

          6                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, possibly.  Again,

          7   without having the full information, sir, I couldn't

          8   say.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  What other information

14:16    10   would you want to know before --

         11                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I would like to see the

         12   full investigation.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  What are you looking for

         14   in the full investigation?

14:16    15                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, and I'm not saying

         16   this is in this case, but there are times that there

         17   could have been some type of information that the inmate

         18   had been manipulative on another unit or whatever, but

         19   it -- does it say there that he was not -- he was

14:16    20   transferred for protective reasons, assailant was

         21   assigned to the Telford Unit, right?

         22                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir.

         23                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Okay.  I'm just -- I'm

         24   just reading to myself.  Excuse me, sir.  I -- what was

14:17    25   the question, sir?
                                                                    98

14:17     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  My question was:  What

          2   additional information would you have wanted as warden

          3   before you made a decision to put this individual in

          4   safekeeping or not?

14:17     5                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, first of all --

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  You said that, you know,

          7   you would want to know whether he has got a reputation

          8   of being a liar.  That makes sense.

          9                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, of manipulation,

14:17    10   and I'm not saying this is or not, but I mean those are

         11   things that come into play.

         12                  MR. McFARLAND:  Sure.

         13                  WARDEN MORGAN:  But without having all

         14   that information, it would be hard for me to say yes, I

14:17    15   would or no, I wouldn't without having the full

         16   information and the information from the Unit

         17   Classification Committee and the investigation to

         18   consider.  I mean, I have got a very general synopsis.

         19                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir, so do we.  Do

14:17    20   you remember -- it says the Estelle Unit administration

         21   recommended that the -- that the victim be transferred

         22   for protective reasons.  Do you remember signing off on

         23   that transfer recommendation?

         24                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, we are -- the unit

14:18    25   is not the transferring authority.  The Bureau of
                                                                    99

14:18     1   Classification is the one that approves and disapproves

          2   all transfers of inmates, so I -- that's the system, but

          3   I don't recall doing anything of such what you are

          4   saying.

14:18     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, was it your job in

          6   '06 as warden of Estelle to make recommendations, not

          7   the decision, but the recommendations to -- to transfer

          8   an inmate for protective reasons?

          9                  WARDEN MORGAN:  It would -- I would

14:18    10   assume that came from the Unit Classification Committee

         11   recommendation.

         12                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, my question is

         13   about your understanding of your job description and

         14   authority in '06, sir.

14:19    15                  Did you make recommendations or sign off

         16   on your staff's recommendations about inmates needing to

         17   be transferred for protective reasons to another unit?

         18                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, we don't, per se, I

         19   sign off on it.  The Unit Classification Committee would

14:19    20   make the recommendation and submit it to the bureau of

         21   classification.

         22                  MR. McFARLAND:  Would you even see it?

         23                  WARDEN MORGAN:  There is a possibility I

         24   may not.

14:19    25                  MR. RIDLEY:  Let me ask a quick question.
                                                                   100

14:19     1   What is the procedure?  What does the policy stipulate

          2   to take place?

          3                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, we go through the

          4   investigation that we have already talked about earlier,

14:19     5   correct, and it goes through -- the major looks at it,

          6   makes his recommendations in the summary, goes to the

          7   Unit Classification Committee, which is comprised of at

          8   least three people at a minimum who -- one has to be an

          9   assistant warden, a captain or above, and a non-security

14:20    10   or classification person.  They review the information

         11   and make a decision about how or what they should

         12   recommend as a committee of where this person should be

         13   transferred or not.  That, in turn, is sent to the

         14   Bureau of Classification and a State classification

14:20    15   committee person will look at that and consider it and

         16   they -- they get back in touch with us at the unit level

         17   and they give us their decision whether there was enough

         18   information there to transfer the inmate, what the

         19   custody level he was going to be going under.  If it was

14:20    20   administrative segregation protection, it would have

         21   to -- it has to meet their approval and I assume that is

         22   still -- that is still the way it is.

         23                  MR. RIDLEY:  While that is taking place,

         24   what is the status of the inmate?

14:21    25                  WARDEN MORGAN:  He should be in a
                                                                   101

14:21     1   transient status.

          2                  MR. RIDLEY:  Transient meaning he's

          3   moving?

          4                  WARDEN MORGAN:  No, it's a housing area

14:21     5   where he's being housed separate from the population.

          6                  MR. RIDLEY:  He'd be in the A Wing,

          7   right?

          8                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

          9                  MR. RIDLEY:  So you don't get involved at

14:21    10   all?

         11                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Oh, yes, sir.  Yes, sir,

         12   they are keeping me informed as to what the issues are

         13   and what is going on throughout the investigation,

         14   especially in these cases of sexual assault.

14:21    15                  MR. RIDLEY:  So that's your only

         16   involvement is being informed?

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, it's up to Bureau

         18   of Classification.  They're the transferring authority.

         19                  MR. RIDLEY:  And they don't ask for you

14:21    20   to agree or disagree with a protective custody transfer

         21   recommendation?

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  They send all pertinent

         23   information and they review that, sir.

         24                  MR. RIDLEY:  No, I'm asking what do they

14:21    25   ask of you?  Do they want to know what you think about
                                                                   102

14:21     1   the recommendation?

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  There have been times

          3   that, yes, sir, they have called and asked me about it.

          4                  MS. ELLIS:  Do you have any capacity to

14:22     5   override or object?

          6                  WARDEN MORGAN:  If we -- if we disagree,

          7   our recourse would be to appeal it to the director's

          8   review board if -- in any case that we disagreed with.

          9   If they -- for instance, as an example I'll give you, if

14:22    10   they said he didn't need to be transferred and I thought

         11   that he did, well, that's when I would appeal it, just

         12   as an example.

         13                  MR. RIDLEY:  Do you think that process

         14   promotes a healthy environment --

14:22    15                  WARDEN MORGAN:  What do you mean?

         16                  MR. RIDLEY:  -- for alleged victims?

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I mean they are --

         18   since my tenure with the department, this is the way

         19   transfers have always been done.  You know, the

14:22    20   information is sent to them and they get the

         21   information, as I -- if my memory is correct, and they

         22   look and make those decisions because that's what they

         23   are basing their decision on -- whether to place them in

         24   --

14:23    25                  MR. RIDLEY:  But as a corrections
                                                                   103

14:23     1   professional --

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Sir?

          3                  MR. RIDLEY:  -- I'm asking you, do you

          4   think that promotes a healthy environment for the

14:23     5   alleged victim?

          6                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I do, sir, because I

          7   believe everything is being taken into consideration.

          8                  MR. RIDLEY:  The length of time and

          9   everything?

14:23    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Sir, he's been on

         11   transient status and I mean he's being protected.  He's

         12   away from the general population while that

         13   investigation is being conducted and that process is

         14   being taken place.

14:23    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Morgan, at Estelle in

         16   '06, did your classification committee or whoever was

         17   doing the initial classification of your new inmates --

         18                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir?

         19                  MR. McFARLAND:  -- did they have access

14:24    20   to past records of alleged sexual assault?

         21                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I would assume that that

         22   would be in with the information that arrived with him

         23   from the previous unit that he was coming from.

         24                  MR. McFARLAND:  Do you know if that

14:24    25   information is typically provided by the previous unit?
                                                                   104

14:24     1                  WARDEN MORGAN:  To my knowledge, yes,

          2   sir, it is.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Castillo, today do

          4   you have information from any transferring unit about

14:24     5   allegations of sexual assault for your new fish?

          6                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  For your new what, sir?

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  Your new inmates?

          8                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Sir, on any given day

          9   on incoming chain, you are going to see inmates that are

14:24    10   coming in for -- and while reviewing their file, there

         11   is going to be previous OPIs in there, offender

         12   protection investigations.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  Is it your expectation,

         14   Mr. Castillo, that you will -- you'll have that

14:25    15   information or your staff will have that information

         16   before you make a decision to put anybody in GP?

         17                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Oh, yes, sir.  You will

         18   have the file, the classification file and you'll have

         19   that information plus a travel card and, you know, the

14:25    20   classification file travels with the inmate from unit to

         21   unit.

         22                  MR. McFARLAND:  Now, for the record, Ms.

         23   Ellis is going to need to slip out here, so we thank you

         24   for your participation.

14:26    25                  MS. ELLIS:  Certainly.
                                                                   105

14:26     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Castillo, if you were

          2   aware that an offender had alleged sexual assaults in a

          3   previous unit, would you -- what would you do?  It

          4   wouldn't make any difference, or would you put them in

14:26     5   safekeeping?

          6                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  If the allegations were

          7   substantiated, he would end up in safekeeping.

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  And how would you

          9   substantiate the allegations?  Who would you ask or --

14:26    10                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No.  If the inmate

         11   arrived at my unit where the allegations had been

         12   substantiated on another unit, yes, he would go to

         13   safekeeping.

         14                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  Ms. Howell, the --

14:26    15   is my understanding correct that the information either

         16   from OIG or UCC that you are going to send us on this

         17   event, 12850, is going to -- should be able to tell us

         18   what information Mr. Morgan's staff had when this

         19   particular offender arrived?

14:27    20                  MS. HOWELL:  It is likely to and it

         21   should.  There is a possibility that telephone

         22   conversations may have taken place.  I don't know.

         23                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Well, can I make a

         24   comment?  This is Mr. Quarterman.

14:27    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir.
                                                                   106

14:27     1                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  I think what we are

          2   going to have to supply to you is the OPI and also the

          3   investigation because I cannot tell you the -- I cannot

          4   tell you the credibility of their investigation because

14:27     5   they don't work for me.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir, I understand

          7   that.

          8                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  But one thing I can

          9   give you, I can give you what we initially started when

14:27    10   we reported it to them and what evidence we had to call

         11   them aboard to take care of that -- that situation.  And

         12   I think that's important that we provide that to you and

         13   ask them to provide you with the whole file of their

         14   investigation.

14:28    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.

         16                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  So we're going to

         17   ask for both -- we're going to give you the OPI because

         18   that's something I think is important and then I think

         19   the investigation itself that they did, if they will

14:28    20   release it -- we'll try to get that to you.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  And, Mr. Quarterman, that

         22   is great.  Is the OPI the offender profile investigation

         23   or something?

         24                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Yes.

14:28    25                  MS. HOWELL:  It's the offender protection
                                                                   107

14:28     1   investigation, sir.  And to answer the question I was

          2   answering before, usually on the forms, the committee

          3   will write down the specific reason it relied on for

          4   making the particular recommendation to the State

14:28     5   classification committee for transfer or placement in

          6   safekeeping or whatever, so usually it's going to be

          7   clear from the face of the investigation why he was --

          8   why the recommendation was made.

          9                  WARDEN MORGAN:  And why he was being

14:29    10   transferred to our facility should be on there, too.

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.

         12                  MS. HOWELL:  Anyway, you should get a lot

         13   of information from the investigations and, anyway, I

         14   think they will be helpful.

14:29    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  Turning to the

         16   information you all provided about employee discipline,

         17   so we're turning from inmate-on-inmate assault to any

         18   violations by staff in 2006.  It indicates that the

         19   Estelle Unit, as I mentioned earlier, had 151

14:29    20   disciplines in calendar '06 but zero of them were for

         21   sexual misconduct with an offender.

         22                  Mr. Morgan, do you think -- do you

         23   believe that your staff in '06 did not commit a single

         24   act that would qualify as sexual misconduct?

14:30    25                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, as the record
                                                                   108

14:30     1   indicates there, we didn't discipline anybody, and I can

          2   assure you if it had been brought to our attention, that

          3   we would have, sir.

          4                  MR. McFARLAND:  So your answer is -- is

14:30     5   what, that you -- you don't believe that they committed

          6   a single act?

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Not to my knowledge.

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  What do you suspect?  I

          9   think you indicated earlier that you recalled one felony

14:30    10   involving staff-on-inmate sexual conduct in '06, if I'm

         11   not mistaken?

         12                  WARDEN MORGAN:  We're talking about the

         13   DNA; is that the one that you're talking about from

         14   earlier?

14:31    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  I don't know if it's --

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  And that may have been in

         17   2005.  I can't -- I don't remember.

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah, all right.

         19                  WARDEN MORGAN:  But it may have been in

14:31    20   '06, but it may have been in '05.  I -- I don't -- I

         21   don't remember.

         22                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Castillo, you arrived

         23   in March of '07, how many 42D violations were -- were

         24   entered in Estelle in 2007?

14:31    25                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  I have not ran any
                                                                   109

14:31     1   42As.

          2                  MR. McFARLAND:  42Ds?

          3                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Ds.

          4                  MR. McFARLAND:  Which is sexual

14:31     5   misconduct?  Is it 42A or 42D?

          6                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Delta, D.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  What is 42A?

          8                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That may just be -- I

          9   think that may just be inappropriate relationship.

14:32    10                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Inappropriate

         11   relationship like letters and just talking, no touching,

         12   just inappropriate communications.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  Who was that that just

         14   testified?

14:32    15                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  This is

         16   Mr. Quarterman.

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Quarterman, okay.

         18   Mr. Morgan -- or Mr. Castillo, do you think that failure

         19   to report by staff about staff improprieties or sexual

14:32    20   misconduct by staff is an explanation for why there is

         21   not a single, you know, allegation or discipline against

         22   the staff for sexual misconduct?  Do you honestly think

         23   that nothing occurred, or do you think that maybe some

         24   -- some of your officers are looking the other way?

14:33    25   They have got to work with these people, and if it's a
                                                                   110

14:33     1   consensual quickie in a closet by one of your fellow

          2   officers, you do not want to have the reputation of

          3   turning in your peers?  Am I way off on that or could

          4   that --

14:33     5                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, I don't think that

          6   you're way off.  I think that -- that if a person has

          7   knowledge of another person, most of the time I believe

          8   that the person that is engaged in a relationship -- and

          9   at times there is other people that know about -- about

14:33    10   it but are not going to report it.

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  How might you as the

         12   warden, Mr. Castillo, motivate folks to not stay silent

         13   on the commission of sexual misconduct by staff?

         14                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, I'm glad that you

14:34    15   brought that up because on newly arrived employees --

         16                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir.

         17                  WARDEN CASTILLO -- as a senior warden,

         18   you are tasked to go in into the shift briefing and

         19   giving the newly arrived employees a one-hour block of

14:34    20   instruction, and that has always been one of my favorite

         21   block of instructions on the inmates that are capable of

         22   manipulating staff if you allow them to.

         23                  MR. McFARLAND:  So you like to spell out

         24   for your new staff that once you're compromised by an

14:35    25   inmate, that --
                                                                   111

14:35     1                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  You're ineffective,

          2   sir.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir.

          4                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  You're ineffective once

14:35     5   you're compromised by an inmate.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  He's got the goods on

          7   you, he's got you over a barrel; isn't that right?

          8                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  And it could lead to

14:35    10   contraband, it could lead to all kinds of things?

         11                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Oh, it could lead to

         12   the introduction of contraband, it puts your staff in --

         13   it jeopardizes the staff, your unit operations.

         14                  MR. RIDLEY:  Mr. Castillo, Walter Ridley

14:36    15   again.

         16                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         17                  MR. RIDLEY:  Two pieces.  One is, the

         18   survey is out and you and Mr. Morgan and -- while it is

         19   just debatable, okay, about the data, but it's out

14:36    20   there.  What do you plan on doing to assure that if

         21   another similar survey is done, it will not reflect the

         22   same results?

         23                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Can you repeat the

         24   question?

14:36    25                  MR. RIDLEY:  Sure.  Okay.  The survey
                                                                   112

14:36     1   that is out there.

          2                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

          3                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  Whether you agree or

          4   disagree, the reality is the numbers are out there.

14:37     5   Understanding that, what do you plan to do to assure

          6   that those kinds of numbers will not be reflected if

          7   another survey were to be done?

          8                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  More training.

          9                  MR. RIDLEY:  Training in what?

14:37    10                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Of staff.

         11                  MR. RIDLEY:  In what?

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  More in-depth training

         13   and reporting and their responsibilities.

         14                  MR. RIDLEY:  Do you think there is a need

14:37    15   for a culture change or a climate change in the

         16   institution?

         17                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  I don't believe so.

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  I ask that

         19   question because something, again, has caused the survey

14:38    20   to be what it is.

         21                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         22                  MR. RIDLEY:  And I think it's -- it would

         23   be -- I think it would be prudent upon you to somehow

         24   ascertain what the real climate is --

14:38    25                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.
                                                                   113

14:38     1                  MR. RIDLEY:  -- and not make necessarily

          2   an assumption but to dig down and say:  Hey, why are

          3   those numbers here?  Just a thought.

          4                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

14:38     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Castillo, when was

          6   the last time there was a substantiated complaint

          7   against any of your staff for sexual harassment of an

          8   inmate?  Has that ever happened since you arrived?

          9                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

14:39    10                  MR. McFARLAND:  Do you remember --

         11   Mr. Morgan, was there ever a substantiated complaint

         12   against any of your staff for sexual harassment of an

         13   inmate during your tenure there?

         14                  WARDEN MORGAN:  The only -- and again,

14:39    15   from my recollection, sir, is the one that we had

         16   discussed earlier where that DNA had come back that was

         17   matched.

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  As a result of the

         19   report from Livingston?

14:39    20                  WARDEN MORGAN:  No, sir.  No, sir.

         21   Repeat yourself.  I'm not sure if I understand you.

         22                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, let me -- I'm

         23   looking at a document that you all provided dated --

         24   it's a letter to Dennis Mills --

14:39    25                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Oh, yes, sir.  Yes, sir,
                                                                   114

14:39     1   I have got it in front of me.

          2                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  And that's your

          3   signature?

          4                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

14:39     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  Do you remember this

          6   incident of racial harassment?

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  When is the last time --

          9   and during your tenure at Estelle, was there ever any

14:40    10   similar discipline for sexual harassment by staff?

         11                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Not -- not to my

         12   knowledge, sir.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  Do you think it happened?

         14                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Do I think it happened?

14:40    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir.

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Not to my knowledge.  I

         17   mean, you're asking me to speculate.  I don't believe

         18   that it did.

         19                  MR. McFARLAND:  I'm just wondering if you

14:40    20   ever had a suspicion.  Let me put it this way:  This is

         21   one area of a sustained complaint for racial harassment.

         22   Do you think this was the only incident of racial

         23   harassment?

         24                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That was reported, that

14:40    25   was brought to my attention.
                                                                   115

14:40     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  Did you ever have any

          2   suspicions that it wasn't the only incident of racial

          3   harassment among your staff in your four or five years

          4   there?

14:40     5                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I'm -- you know, I'm not

          6   going to say the possibility could have possibly been

          7   there but, you know, anything that's ever reported as in

          8   this case, I can assure you we took appropriate action

          9   and addressed the issue.

14:41    10                  MR. McFARLAND:  The OPI, the Offender

         11   Protection Investigation log, you have got a document

         12   there that talks about Unit Classification Procedure

         13   10.00 dated July 2005?

         14                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Where are we at again?

14:41    15   I'm just getting my book.

         16                  MS. HOWELL:  It's at the front.

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Front?  Under

         18   classification procedure?

         19                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir.

14:42    20                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Okay.  Offender

         21   Protection Investigation form?

         22                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir.

         23                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Okay.  We're looking at

         24   the form.

14:42    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  Did you have this log
                                                                   116

14:42     1   when you were there?

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I'm trying to make sure

          3   I'm on the right one here.  Just a second.  The Offender

          4   Protection Investigation log?

14:42     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, sir.

          6                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir, I believe it

          7   was.

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  And how was it used?

          9                  WARDEN MORGAN:  It was used to log in, I

14:42    10   believe -- let me look here right quick again, I -- this

         11   was used to log in any type of complaints for offender

         12   protection requests to keep, I assume, the timeline on

         13   it there.

         14                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  How often did you

14:43    15   refer to it, the log?

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, the Safe Prison

         17   Program sergeant would come and we would talk about

         18   issues and look at it and review it.

         19                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, my question is:

14:43    20   How often did you as warden look at who was listed on

         21   the log?

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  You know, I'm trying to

         23   remember back.  I would say a couple of times a month.

         24                  MR. McFARLAND:  How about you, Mr.

14:43    25   Castillo, do you have occasion to look at it?
                                                                   117

14:43     1                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

          2                  MR. McFARLAND:  How do you use it?

          3                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, classification

          4   chief is the person that keeps the log.

14:44     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  So you delegate that to

          6   him or her or do you -- do you want to see that log

          7   yourself?

          8                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, it's delegated to

          9   her.

14:44    10                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  When is the last

         11   time you looked at it?

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Last week.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  And before then when was

         14   the last time you had looked at it?  I'm just trying to

14:44    15   get an idea of whether this is something that wardens,

         16   you know, look at on a weekly basis, a semi-annual

         17   basis, or what?

         18                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Possibly every -- once

         19   a month.

14:44    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  And what were you

         21   looking at for -- what was relevant to you on this log?

         22                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Just the inmates that

         23   are on -- investigations that have been conducted on

         24   particular inmates.

14:45    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah, but what I'm
                                                                   118

14:45     1   getting at is how, if at all, was this useful in

          2   preventing sexual assaults?

          3                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Oh, it -- well, the

          4   only thing it's going to indicate on there is who -- the

14:45     5   name of the inmate that an Offender Protection

          6   Investigation has been conducted on and the disposition.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  How many -- Mr. Castillo,

          8   how many new inmates come in at a time on a given day?

          9   It can vary, I'm sure, so --

14:45    10                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Oh, twenty, thirty.

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  And how long does it take

         12   for your classification people to figure out where to

         13   bunk them?

         14                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  That's a task.  At

14:46    15   times that becomes a task.  Oh, well, prior to them

         16   getting there, they should have a bunk already reserved

         17   for them and where they're going to be housed at.

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  And how is that decision

         19   made and who makes it?

14:46    20                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  The classification

         21   chief.

         22                  MR. McFARLAND:  Who is your

         23   classification chief right now?

         24                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Ms. Ballard.

14:46    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  And what
                                                                   119

14:46     1   information do you expect her to have when she is

          2   deciding on who a new inmate is going to be -- have as

          3   his cellie?

          4                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Oh, what information?

14:46     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes.

          6                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  As far as his height

          7   and weight?

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  Height, weight, sexual

          9   orientation --

14:47    10                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Right.

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  Past sexual assault

         12   allegations, whether this guy is a -- is violent,

         13   whether this guy is a -- a flaming homosexual who -- who

         14   is proud of it and makes no bones about it, whether this

14:47    15   person is -- is -- you know, what information does she

         16   have in front of her when she is deciding who to put in

         17   there in a cell with him?

         18                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, she has got a --

         19   she has got her computer screen.  All this information

14:47    20   is on screen.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  And does -- what

         22   information does she have or get from the previous unit

         23   or from the jail that's transferring this new inmate?

         24   You know, is it -- other than name, rank, and serial

14:47    25   number, what else?
                                                                   120

14:48     1                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, we get a

          2   classification file when the inmate arrives on the unit.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.

          4                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  And a travel card.

14:48     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  So if you get it when

          6   they arrive, but I think you just testified that

          7   Ms. Ballard makes -- has already assigned them.  So I

          8   take it that there is nothing in the classification file

          9   that plays any role in where they get assigned?

14:48    10                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, they got --

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  If -- not to be Perry

         12   Mason here, but if there is any discussion among you, if

         13   you'd just let us know, that would be helpful.

         14                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Yeah, this is

14:48    15   Mr. Quarterman.  I was trying just to grasp on what you

         16   are trying to get at, but I just want to make both of

         17   you aware that we process the inmates in our receptions.

         18   When they come into intake, they're not intaked at only

         19   those facilities.  They're intaked on our -- our intake

14:49    20   facilities where we make up their classification, their

         21   profile.  All that information is put in the database

         22   and we are given a travel card that travels with the

         23   inmate along with the file.  So when he arrives on the

         24   warden's unit, they have all that information at their

14:49    25   access to make a decision where to house these folks.
                                                                   121

14:49     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah, but that was my

          2   point.  The travel card travels with the inmate.  The

          3   information -- the classification file I was just told

          4   was -- travels with the inmate and two minutes ago we

14:49     5   heard that the decision about where that person is going

          6   to be housed is made before the inmate gets there.

          7                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Oh, no, they're

          8   made when they get there in reclass.  When they get

          9   there in reclass -- they've got a chain list of who is

14:50    10   coming in but the decision is made -- when they come

         11   into classification, they are seen by UCC.  UCC

         12   determines what job they get, what assignments they get,

         13   what level of assignments, what custody they're going to

         14   be and at that point it goes to housing.  And at that

14:50    15   point, the housing will make the decisions where this

         16   inmate will be according to all that information.  And

         17   that's done on every facility.  Now, if we can't

         18   classify this person in time, we'll put him in transient

         19   pending classification.  That's the procedure as it

14:50    20   stands in Texas.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, Mr. Castillo --

         22                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         23                  MR. McFARLAND:  -- is, in fact -- in your

         24   sworn testimony, is that the way it actually happens at

14:51    25   Estelle, namely that nobody is put in -- is housed until
                                                                   122

14:51     1   this person arrives and has been interviewed by the

          2   classification person, Ms. Bales (sic) or Ms.  -- well,

          3   whoever it is and the -- all the information that

          4   Mr. Quarterman has just described has all been available

14:51     5   to them and reviewed?  Is that -- is that the way it

          6   actually happens?

          7                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir, that is

          8   correct.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  And how do you pull that

14:51    10   off when you have got twenty or more individuals all

         11   arriving on a bus on one day?  Is that --

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  You have a -- you set

         13   up a classification hearing and one by one you're

         14   reviewing their file.  The committee reviews their file

14:51    15   and determines where the inmate is going to be housed

         16   and the job.

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  How many inmates can come

         18   in on one day?  I mean, you mentioned twenty, thirty.  I

         19   mean, can -- sometimes you can have as many as what?

14:52    20                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Oh, you can have as

         21   many as fifty.

         22                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  And that would be

         23   fifty hearings.  And what I'm getting at is what do you

         24   -- you can't get through fifty classifications unless

14:52    25   you -- you know, and review for each one all this
                                                                   123

14:52     1   information, can you, in one day and still get these

          2   people into a cell that night?

          3                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

          4                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, you can do it?

14:52     5                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, you can do it.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.

          7                  MR. RIDLEY:  What kind of quality goes

          8   into that?  Do you have a quality assurance program to

          9   tell you whether or not, you know, you are effectively

14:52    10   classifying people?  How do you do that with quality,

         11   rush-rush?

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No.  They can also come

         13   back and conduct audits to make sure that you're in

         14   compliance and in accordance with agency policy.

14:53    15                  MR. RIDLEY:  Or does that happen after an

         16   incident?

         17                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No.

         18                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.

         19                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Morgan, what is your

14:53    20   understanding of how much of a rape kit is supposed to

         21   be, you know, used -- let me back up.

         22                  In '06, should your staff have done an

         23   anal or an oral exam only if the victim said that he was

         24   anally or orally penetrated?

14:54    25                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That would be left to
                                                                   124

14:54     1   Office of Inspector General to request that or I would

          2   defer to the medical department with the situation.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Castillo, what is

          4   your understanding of what happens there?

14:54     5                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  That is left up to the

          6   Office of the Inspector General, sir.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  So do you not know what

          8   goes on and what is the protocol in RMF that once a rape

          9   kit is opened, whether an anal or oral exam is going to

14:54    10   be -- is going to be done?

         11                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir, that's left up

         12   to the investigator.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, the physician in

         14   your RMF with whom we spoke on March 27th said that it

14:55    15   is done even after -- before or after ninety-six hours,

         16   it's going to be done and it's going to be done --

         17   they're going to do the anal and oral exam regardless of

         18   whether the individual alleges that it was just oral

         19   sex.  They are going to do an anal exam as well.  So

14:55    20   does that refresh anybody's recollection as to what the

         21   procedure is or was for the administration of a rape kit

         22   and anal and oral exams?

         23                  WARDEN MORGAN:  As I said, it would be at

         24   the Office of Inspector General with his investigation

14:55    25   as to what the issues were, or the medical department as
                                                                   125

14:55     1   to what they thought, again, whatever the issue, whether

          2   it was anal or by the mouth or whatever -- as to what

          3   they thought as a medical professional, what they felt

          4   needed to be done at the time.

14:56     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  I just have a couple more

          6   questions.  How are gay, bi-sexual, lesbian, and

          7   transgender inmates dealt with to prevent sexual

          8   assaults at Estelle?  Let me start with Mr. Morgan.

          9                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, I think that boils

14:56    10   down to the classification.  You know, in my --

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  And will that information

         12   be available on the --

         13                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, if I could

         14   continue, please?

14:56    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  Oh, I'm sorry.

         16                  WARDEN MORGAN:  When we receive an

         17   inmate, that's by way, again, of the Bureau of

         18   Classification.  If, say, we had a transgendered inmate

         19   who came into the system and he came in through our

14:56    20   diagnostic process, the determination is made at that

         21   time whether he should go to a male or female facility

         22   and to what custody level he should be, whether it

         23   should be general population or whether it should be in

         24   safekeeping.  That is a recommendation that they give

14:57    25   us.  Upon arrival at the unit we look at that and
                                                                   126

14:57     1   consider what they have, "they" being the transferring

          2   authority and the chief entity within the classification

          3   bureau, what their recommendation is.  We review the

          4   file.  Obviously, if you have a man come in with large

14:57     5   breasts, it's going to attract attention toward him and

          6   I most certainly would not put him in population.  I

          7   mean, it's on a case-by-case basis as to how we're going

          8   to do that.  You know, I have seen cases where those

          9   types of people had to go straight to protection because

14:57    10   we had to protect them because, you know, we have gang

         11   showers and you can imagine what a commotion it would

         12   be.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  What's a gang

         14   shower?

14:58    15                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That's where all the

         16   inmates -- it's a big shower, like twenty inmates may

         17   shower at a time.

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  And is that supervised by

         19   custodial staff?

14:58    20                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.  Yes, sir.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  Male and female?

         22                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Most of the time it's

         23   male.

         24                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Male.

14:58    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Morgan, did you ever
                                                                   127

14:58     1   have an instance where this has actually -- it sounds

          2   like you've actually had this happen.  Did you ever have

          3   a transgendered inmate in your facility?

          4                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

14:58     5                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  We currently have -- I

          6   have seen one at Estelle and he's housed in safekeeping.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  Mr. Morgan, how

          8   did you deal with the transgender inmate?  Was this

          9   inmate immediately put into safekeeping?

14:58    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  The one that I'm speaking

         11   of, I don't -- it wasn't at Estelle, I don't believe.  I

         12   was on four or five other different units.  We had

         13   requested he be put on protection because his -- you

         14   know, some of them come in with small, some of them with

14:59    15   big.  These were too big for him not to be harassed so I

         16   mean, to me, it's just common sense that he would need

         17   to go.

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  Gentlemen, is it fair to

         19   say that if you recommended that somebody be put in

14:59    20   safekeeping, it's going to happen?  I mean there is

         21   nobody in -- in Austin or Huntsville who is going to

         22   veto what a warden says is necessary for the safekeeping

         23   of one of his inmates?  Is that a fair assumption to

         24   make?

14:59    25                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  As a warden or an
                                                                   128

14:59     1   assistant warden and a senior warden, there is times

          2   that you can make recommendations and it is sent to the

          3   Bureau of Classification and they could veto that, your

          4   vote.

15:00     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  Even a recommendation by

          6   you about the safekeeping of someone who is -- is, you

          7   think, susceptible or vulnerable to sexual assault?  Has

          8   that ever happened?

          9                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, it has happened

15:00    10   and that's when the -- a line of communication -- and

         11   you pick up the phone and you talk to classification and

         12   you tell them:  Hey, it's imperative that I place this

         13   inmate in safekeeping, and most of the time they're

         14   going to assist you with that.

15:00    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Morgan, did you ever

         16   have a different experience?  I mean --

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  You know, what I would

         18   say, you know, nine times out of ten they are going to

         19   agree with what the unit recommends.

15:00    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  You bet you.

         21                  WARDEN MORGAN:  We have had times that I

         22   have picked up the phone myself, but in each time that

         23   we did that, there was cooperation.  Maybe the

         24   classification department didn't send enough information

15:00    25   that they -- we needed to finish it up, but I can assure
                                                                   129

15:01     1   you when a warden calls up there and says we've got a

          2   problem, they're going to listen and if they don't, we

          3   always have the director's review board and all we have

          4   to do is call a regional director and it's going to be

15:01     5   taken care of.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  The regional director is

          7   going to back you --

          8                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Oh, yes, sir.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  -- ninety-nine percent of

15:01    10   the time, right?

         11                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.  Yes, sir,

         12   because --

         13                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes.

         14                  WARDEN MORGAN:  -- and I'm sure -- back

15:01    15   when I was here and I'm sure now, you know, we don't

         16   call much but when we do call, we are needing some help

         17   --

         18                  MR. McFARLAND:  You bet you.

         19                  WARDEN MORGAN:  -- and that's the way it

15:01    20   should be.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Morgan, do you

         22   remember the inmate by the name of Juan Lopez?

         23                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Other than what I -- I

         24   had forgotten about him until I read this and I looked

15:01    25   back and I -- yes, sir, it's in litigation.
                                                                   130

15:01     1                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  Is that the

          2   individual you were referring to earlier?

          3                  WARDEN MORGAN:  No, sir, that's another

          4   one.

15:01     5                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.

          6                  WARDEN MORGAN:  And I might add

          7   ludicrous.

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  Mr. Lopez was ludicrous?

          9                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That it's --

15:02    10                  MR. McFARLAND:  His allegation of sexual

         11   assault is ludicrous?

         12                  WARDEN MORGAN:  As far as that I did,

         13   yes, sir.

         14                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.  Well, since

15:02    15   you said that, do you have an opinion as to the -- well,

         16   I won't ask you that.

         17                  MS. HOWELL:  Thank you.  I would note

         18   that the defendants in the lawsuit are the senior

         19   warden, the two assistant wardens, a major, two

15:02    20   captains, a lieutenant, and a sergeant.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  All of whom allegedly

         23   raped him.

         24                  MR. McFARLAND:  You've got that January

15:02    25   25, 2008 article in the Huntsville Item in front of you?
                                                                   131

15:02     1                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I could get it there,

          2   sir.  Let's see here.  Okay, sir.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  This is an allegation --

          4   oh, no, this is a report, a factual report --

15:03     5                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  -- presumably, of an

          7   inmate who died in Estelle February 6th, 2007, so this

          8   would have been right about the time you were leaving,

          9   Mr. Morgan?

15:03    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  Do you remember the

         12   inmate dying?

         13                  WARDEN MORGAN:  He may have died after I

         14   left, I don't remember, but yes, sir, I think I did.

15:03    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, how often does an

         16   inmate die at Estelle?

         17                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Well, considering that we

         18   have a geriatric center, we have quite a few, and the

         19   regional medical facility we have.

15:04    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.  How many

         21   inmates die violently and not by old age at Estelle?

         22   Pretty rare occasion or is that a --

         23                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.  Yes, sir.

         24                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  So can you recall

15:04    25   whether he died on your watch or not?
                                                                   132

15:04     1                  WARDEN MORGAN:  To tell you the truth,

          2   sir, I don't remember.  It was right -- it was right

          3   on -- there -- it may have been me.

          4                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  Now, the article

15:04     5   says -- because we don't have anything else about this,

          6   the article says that -- it quotes Inspector General

          7   John Moriarty, who we had at an earlier hearing, as,

          8   quote:  It's my firm belief we got to the bottom of what

          9   happened, he said, pointing at a lack of proper medical

15:05    10   response within the prison.  And then he says that

         11   investigators came to the, quote, collective conclusion

         12   we had a criminally negligent homicide.  Do you think

         13   that there was a -- a lack of a proper medical response

         14   in this particular case at Estelle?

15:05    15                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I don't have the medical

         16   background to make that determination, sir.

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  What did you do, Mr.

         18   Castillo, if anything, to prevent the recurrence of what

         19   happened to Mr. Cox at Estelle?

15:05    20                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Well, the only thing

         21   that we have emphasized is that you make an effort and

         22   try to solve the problem, calm the inmate, and also to

         23   place the inmate in an upright position whenever

         24   possible and just follow your use of force plan.

15:06    25                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  This is
                                                                   133

15:06     1   Mr. Quarterman.  I would like to make one comment on

          2   that incident.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  Can I get your

          4   comment just as soon as we finish this -- the factual

15:06     5   testimony about Mr. Cox and then I'd love to hear what

          6   you have to say.

          7                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Okay, great.

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  So, Mr. Castillo, did any

          9   policies change, did any training change, did any

15:06    10   assignments change, was there any staff discipline, did

         11   anything change after Mr. Cox died with a broken back

         12   and a -- neck injuries, head injuries and neck injuries?

         13                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir, not that I'm

         14   aware of.

15:07    15                  MR. McFARLAND:  As senior warden there,

         16   and I -- and understanding that it was about, you know,

         17   a matter of days or a couple weeks right before you got

         18   there, I guess, I imagine this would be a pretty -- this

         19   would attract plenty of your attention, I would think;

15:07    20   is that right?

         21                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         22                  MR. McFARLAND:  And you had a key state

         23   senator being quoted on the -- in the newspaper talking

         24   about staff shortages and, quote:  I think there is

15:07    25   enough blame to go around, close quote, and so forth.  I
                                                                   134

15:07     1   imagine this was a pretty big deal when you arrived?

          2                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.  Well, the

          3   only thing, like I indicated, awhile ago is emphasizing

          4   a training, emphasizing things that could go wrong and

15:08     5   just ensuring that your staff is following the policy.

          6                  MR. McFARLAND:  What policy was violated

          7   here?

          8                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  There was no violation

          9   of policy.

15:08    10                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.

         11                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  You just want to make

         12   sure they're following policy.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  So other than keeping the

         14   person upright, there is nothing that you thought needed

15:08    15   to be changed in the handling of this -- the handling of

         16   a case like Mr. Cox?

         17                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

         18                  MR. RIDLEY:  Question, do you all use

         19   video cams for incidents like this?

15:09    20                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         21                  MR. RIDLEY:  Did you use one in this

         22   situation?

         23                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

         24                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.  And it reflected

15:09    25   what?
                                                                   135

15:09     1                  WARDEN MORGAN:  That all staff acted

          2   appropriately and were cleared through the Office of

          3   Inspector General.

          4                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, that inspector

15:09     5   general said that the collective conclusion was

          6   criminally negligent homicide, but I don't think the --

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  I think that was -- other

          8   than security, I believe that was on medical, sir.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  Oh, I see.  These are

15:09    10   your prison medical staff, though, right?

         11                  WARDEN MORGAN:  They're contracted by the

         12   University of Texas Medical Branch.

         13                  MR. RIDLEY:  They report to --

         14                  MS. HOWELL:  If I can interrupt right

15:09    15   here.  It's a very complicated statutory reporting

         16   structure.  The legislature has imposed -- has required

         17   the prison system to contract with two of the flagship

         18   universities in the State of Texas, one of which is the

         19   University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, the

15:10    20   other which is Texas Tech University out in Lubbock.

         21   They had the State divided.  UTMB has about two-thirds

         22   of the State and the Estelle Unit falls within their --

         23   the medical people report to a correctional-managed

         24   health care committee and it's all set up by statute.

15:10    25   And UT -- and the prison system has some -- has some
                                                                   136

15:10     1   oversight of medical practices but cannot -- through

          2   audit, et cetera, but cannot tell medical what to do.

          3                  MR. RIDLEY:  So the warden within the

          4   confines of his institution has very little, if any,

15:10     5   authority over the medical?

          6                  MS. HOWELL:  That would be correct, sir.

          7                  MR. RIDLEY:  Okay.

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  And Mr. Castillo, is it

          9   correct that no one was criminally prosecuted in that

15:11    10   case?

         11                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.  As of this

         12   time, yes, there is -- nobody has been charged.

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah.  And was anybody

         14   disciplined, any staff disciplined in that incident?

15:11    15                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Not correctional

         16   staff.

         17                  MR. McFARLAND:  I'm sorry, did you

         18   answer, sir?

         19                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Not correctional staff.

15:11    20                  MR. McFARLAND:  Any of your 500 staff at

         21   the time, were any of them -- have any of them been

         22   disciplined in connection with the death of Mr. Cox?

         23                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

         24                  MR. McFARLAND:  Have you recommended that

15:11    25   anybody be disciplined?
                                                                   137

15:11     1                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

          2                  MR. McFARLAND:  So you would attribute

          3   any criminal negligent homicide to the medical

          4   contractors, not anybody that you have any control over;

15:12     5   is that your testimony?

          6                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Could you repeat the

          7   question?

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  The inspector general is

          9   quoted as saying that the -- this is a case of

15:12    10   criminally negligent homicide, and I'm trying to find

         11   out whether anybody was prosecuted or disciplined for

         12   such negligence.

         13                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, not correctional

         14   staff.  Now, as far as medical, I don't know if they

15:12    15   took any action against medical staff.

         16                  MR. McFARLAND:  Let me ask you this:  If

         17   you thought that the medical staff had allowed an inmate

         18   in your institution to lay in his own filth on the floor

         19   with a broken back and neck injuries and then die, would

15:13    20   you have no authority to affect -- to prevent that from

         21   recurring?

         22                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes.  I mean you

         23   couldn't -- if that actually happened like that, sir,

         24   you couldn't allow it as a senior warden.

15:13    25                  MR. McFARLAND:  I'm sorry, you could or
                                                                   138

15:13     1   you couldn't prevent that again?  Couldn't you appeal to

          2   somebody and say, I don't care what you think about

          3   these Galveston County Medical folks; these folks are

          4   incompetent and here's proof and we're not -- you know,

15:13     5   we're not going to have these people taking care of or

          6   ignoring our prisoners anymore?  Is there no mechanism

          7   in TDCJ for you as the senior warden to change that?

          8                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, you can.

          9                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  So you don't think

15:14    10   that needs -- that anything needs to change in light of

         11   the Cox case?

         12                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  In medical?

         13                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yes, in medical.

         14                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  I would think that they

15:14    15   have -- most likely have made some changes.

         16                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, my question is:

         17   Did you insist on it?  Have you asked anybody to make

         18   some changes so that this would not happen as a result

         19   of -- of anything that your medical staff in prison are

15:14    20   doing or not doing?

         21                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  No, sir.

         22                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.  Well, I don't

         23   have any other questions.  Counsel, will the travel

         24   cards be included in those -- the information you are

15:15    25   going to send us on those eleven Estelle IOIs?
                                                                   139

15:15     1                  MS. HOWELL:  I shall make it so.

          2                  MR. McFARLAND:  Thank you.  That would be

          3   great.  Well, Mr. Morgan and Mr. Castillo, thank you

          4   very much for putting up with three and a quarter hours

15:15     5   of questions.

          6                  WARDEN CASTILLO:  Yes, sir.

          7                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  And Mr. Quarterman, you

          9   had a comment you wanted to make on the record?

15:15    10                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Yes, several

         11   comments but in relation to the Cox case, it was medical

         12   disciplinaries and terminations and it was some action

         13   done by the agency towards UTMB that was important for

         14   us to establish a good line of communication from

15:15    15   security to medical and then provide 911 service as

         16   necessary to bypass anything of that sort again.

         17                  Also, I want you to know that it was a

         18   senate hearing where we were requested to be there to

         19   testimony on this particular case.  It was also

15:16    20   investigated by the Texas Rangers and other law

         21   enforcement that cleared our security staff.  It is

         22   another review of licenses being taken from the medical

         23   people.  It's being done.  And it was an emergency

         24   meeting with my directors to talk about any -- any

15:16    25   inappropriate medical attention we think is necessary
                                                                   140

15:16     1   for our offenders, we will shout it, we will call, we

          2   will notify upper brass to get help there.  These are

          3   just some of the things we did.  Now --

          4                  MR. McFARLAND:  But none of that was the

15:16     5   result of your senior warden insisting on it being done?

          6                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Well, no, because

          7   when the report came to us we took action.

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  Yeah, okay.

          9                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  But let me tell you

15:17    10   about some other things that I wanted to put on the

         11   record.  And it was good because, you know, you came to

         12   Texas, you talked to a lot of my staff members, and it

         13   was some briefing done out to a lot of our -- because

         14   in, generally, the five units -- we're talking about a

15:17    15   big system of 118 units.  We wanted to make sure that

         16   we're going in the positive way.  One of the things we

         17   are looking at and we are redeveloping and we are about

         18   to put out, at least on our five units as the five units

         19   that were identified in PREA, we're going to use them --

15:17    20   those five units as pod sites for some additional

         21   training relating to silence, officer silence and try to

         22   make it effective.  We are going to try that training

         23   this month on our new wardens.  That training to me is

         24   real critical.  It was published by Brenda Smith.  We

15:17    25   think that is going to be in addition to the training
                                                                   141

15:18     1   that we are giving now.  We are going to modify a lot of

          2   that element into our consistent training we are doing

          3   now.

          4                  The second thing we're doing is -- and we

15:18     5   have done this in the last three years -- when we put in

          6   camera systems now, they will have the capability of

          7   recording.  We believe that you cannot do one without

          8   the other.  It's a necessity and it's a standard that

          9   we're putting in place that we will be able to record

15:18    10   all our -- our video of surveillance we do throughout

         11   the system.  Now, one of the things that I am working

         12   really tough on is prioritizing how we lay that program

         13   out and we're looking at that quite clearly.

         14                  One of the things we've mentioned is

15:18    15   staffing, and the staffing is done by our security

         16   system.  There's a department within CID, my agency, my

         17   department, my division and in that staffing we have

         18   priorities.  We have priority 1 positions, priority 2s

         19   and priority 3s and it outlines what activity.  When we

15:19    20   don't have available staff, we have -- it's mandatory

         21   that every warden has to do their priority 1s and

         22   priority 2 positions.  Their priority 3 positions is

         23   what relates to activities, outside activities.  Those

         24   things are reduced when we have shortfalls of employees

15:19    25   and that is common throughout the nation, and this is
                                                                   142

15:19     1   something that we work with NIC to develop and we are

          2   going to audit all our units before October 1st to

          3   establish guidelines of where that activity will stop

          4   and will pick up and we will continue the activities by

15:19     5   other means, so that's something.

          6                  Another thing that came out after you

          7   left is a new recruiting strategy where we are now

          8   paying on Estelle Unit, as a matter of fact, a $1,500

          9   sign-on bonus.  Any employee who -- new hire that will

15:19    10   go to Estelle will get paid an additional $1,500.  We

         11   have now reduced our career ladder that new employees

         12   are getting a lot better pay, ten percent more than the

         13   last employees got last month.  So that's one of the

         14   things we're doing to enhance our ability to hire and to

15:20    15   compete with the market that's here in Texas.  And I

         16   just wanted to put it on the record that that was some

         17   of the things, and some of the things -- recommendations

         18   you made about the rape kit being logged in and tracked,

         19   that is in place.  So we have looked at our testimony

15:20    20   and things that were said by both Panel members at our

         21   hearing and we are looking at ways to better our

         22   processes.

         23                  And I think intel came out -- a little

         24   about intel.  And one of the things I want to share with

15:20    25   you about intel, that we get information by several
                                                                   143

15:20     1   elements, our gang intelligence, our extortion officers,

          2   our Safe Prison sergeants, and also our mail room.

          3   We're trying to put up ways that we can communicate that

          4   information across the board because it is a common

15:21     5   factor.  It's a common factor that victims are

          6   victimized pretty much consistent across all those

          7   elements and we wanted to kind of share that information

          8   in one database that we can prevent possible

          9   victimizations being done, so that's one of the things

15:21    10   we're working really hard on.  And that's it.  I didn't

         11   want to bore you too much, but I think --

         12                  MR. McFARLAND:  No, sir, I appreciate it.

         13   That's great stuff.

         14                  DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN:  Well, and we're

15:21    15   serious.  And I want to reply with Mr. Livingston, we

         16   are very serious about it, we are not taking it

         17   backseat, we are moving forward, we are funding these

         18   positions that were part of the grant and we are -- our

         19   legislative leadership has had three hearings.  In that

15:22    20   hearings we have reported on the PREA process, so it is

         21   a lot of attention being given to PREA here in Texas

         22   that will continue and we will continue our effort to

         23   better ourselves.

         24                  MR. McFARLAND:  Well, I sure appreciate

15:22    25   that, Mr. Quarterman.  And Mr. Morgan, could I ask you
                                                                   144

15:22     1   one last question?  You still there?

          2                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

          3                  MR. McFARLAND:  Where are you now?  What

          4   are you doing in Louisiana in corrections?

15:22     5                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir, I work for the

          6   Corrections Corporation of America.

          7                  MR. McFARLAND:  Oh, CCA, all right.  And

          8   may I ask, did you leave -- did you leave on good

          9   standing from TDCJ?

15:22    10                  WARDEN MORGAN:  By all means, sir.

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.

         12                  WARDEN MORGAN:  The man is here.  The

         13   director can tell you if you don't believe me.

         14                  MR. McFARLAND:  I believe you.

15:23    15                  WARDEN MORGAN:  This thing here coincided

         16   at a bad time just when I -- and he -- as a matter of

         17   fact, he and I had a lot of dialogue about this even

         18   after I was gone about the issues and what was going on

         19   with that thing and it was just a very unfortunate issue

15:23    20   -- thing that happened.

         21                  MR. McFARLAND:  You mean Mr. Cox?

         22                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Yes, sir.

         23                  MR. McFARLAND:  So you had a lot of

         24   dialogue on that but you didn't have any dialogue on

15:23    25   sexual assault?
                                                                   145

15:23     1                  WARDEN MORGAN:  Not after I left.

          2                  MR. McFARLAND:  Okay.  All right.  Well,

          3   thank you, gentlemen, and thank you, Sharon and Cindi

          4   and Mr. Bales and we appreciate very much your

15:23     5   accommodating this and I hope that we can continue to

          6   work together to prevent this from ever recurring.

          7                  MS. HOWELL:  As do we, sir.

          8                  MR. McFARLAND:  All right.  Thank you

          9   all.

15:23    10                  MS. HOWELL:  Thank you.

         11                  MR. McFARLAND:  Bye-bye.

         12                  (Adjourned at 3:23 p.m.)

         13               *******************************

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                                                                   146

15:23     1   STATE OF TEXAS

          2

          3                    REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

          4                        April 30, 2008

15:23     5

          6       I, Cindi L. Bench, the undersigned Certified

          7   Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas,

          8   certify that the facts stated in the foregoing pages are

          9   true and correct.

15:23    10       I further certify that I am neither attorney or

         11   counsel for, related to, nor employed by any parties to

         12   the action in which this testimony is taken and,

         13   further, that I am not a relative or employee of any

         14   counsel employed by the parties hereto or financially

15:23    15   interested in the action.

         16       SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO under my hand and seal of

         17   office on this the _______ day of _____________________,

         18   ______.

         19                             ______________________________

15:23    20                             Cindi L. Bench, CSR
                                        Texas CSR 752
         21                             Expiration:  12/31/08
                                        CINDI BENCH REPORTING
         22                             101 Southwestern Blvd., #145
                                        Sugar Land, Texas  77478
         23                             281 565-8222  Fax 281 565-8220
                                        Firm Registration No. 56
         24

         25