1                  U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

            2                     BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT

            3            CALIFORNIA DESERT DISTRICT ADVISORY COUNCIL

            4    

            5    

            6    

            7    

            8    

            9    

           10    

           11    

           12               REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT  OF PROCEEDINGS

           13    

           14    

           15    

           16    LOCATION:         RIVERSIDE MARIOTT 
                                   3400 Market Street
           17                      Riverside, California
                 
           18    DATE AND TIME:    FRIDAY, JULY 25, 2008
                                   1:08 P.M. to 5:09 P.M.
           19    
                 
           20    REPORTED BY:      DENISE J. CURTIS, CSR
                                   CSR NO.  9319
           21    
                 JOB NO.:          1-67416
           22    
                 
           23    
                 
           24    
                 
           25    
                 

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            1                       A P P E A R A N C E S

            2    MEMBERS PRESENT:                REPRESENTING
                 
            3      CHAIRMAN WILLIAM PRESCH       Public-at-Large
                   (Absent)
            4    
                   ACTING CHAIRMAN THOMAS DAVIS  Public-at-Large
            5    
                   GEARY HUND                    National/Regional
            6                                         Environmental
                   DON MABEN                     Elected Official          
            7    
                   THOMAS ACUNA                  Transportation/Rights of
            8                                         Way
                   RON SCHILLER                  Public-at-Large
            9    
                   RONALD VERNON JOHNSTON        Pulbic-at-Large
           10    
                   MEG GROSSGLASS                Public-at-Large
           11    
                   RANDY BANIS                   Public-at-Large
           12    
                   DINAH O. SHUMWAY              Non-Renewable
           13                                         Resources
                   RICHARD HOLIDAY               Recreation
           14    
                   APRIL SALL                    Wildlife
           15    
                   RICHARD RUDNICK               Renewable Resources
           16    
                 
           17    STAFF PRESENT:
                 
           18      DIRECTOR STEVE BORCHARD, California Desert District
                   STEVE RAZO, Deputy District Manager, CDD
           19      STERLING WHITE, Needles Field Office Manager 
                   HECTOR VILLALOBOS, Ridgecrest Field Office Manager
           20      VICKI WOOD, El Centro Field Office Manager
                   JOHN KALISH, Palm Springs Field Office Manager
           21    
                 
           22    
                 
           23    
                 
           24    
                 
           25    
                 

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            1                             I-N-D-E-X

            2                                                  PAGE

            3    Welcome/Pledge of Allegiance                     4 
                 
            4    Approve September '07 Meeting Transcripts        4
                 
            5    State Director's Report                         15
                 
            6    Council Member Reports                          15           
                            Ron Schiller                         25 
            7               Don Maben                            34
                            Richard Rudnick                      46
            8               Dinah Shumway                        47
                            Ronald Vernon Johnston               49
            9               Geary Hund                           51
                            Richard Holiday                      57
           10               Meg Grossglass                       59
                            Randy Banis                          59
           11               April Sall                           62
                            Thomas Acuna                         64
           12    
                 Break                                           67
           13    
                 Public Comment for Items not on the Agenda      67
           14    
                 Field Manager Summary Reports                   78 
           15    Council Questions to Summary Reports
                 
           16    CDD Renewable Energy Program Review            105
                 (Gregory Miller, CDD Renewable Energy Program
           17     Director)
                 
           18    Closing Comments/Adjourn                       143
                 
           19    
                 
           20    
                 
           21    
                 
           22    
                 
           23    
                 
           24    
                 
           25    

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            1           RIVERSIDE, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, JULY 25, 2008

            2                             1:08 P.M.

            3    

            4                       P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

            5         

            6              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  We are a little late only 

            7    because we were trying to get a quorum together.  So I 

            8    think we are ready to go.  

            9              First of all, welcome everybody.  I am acting as 

           10    Chairman today.  My name is Tom Davis.  Our Chairman is 

           11    absent.  And we will go ahead and if you want to stand, we 

           12    will do the pledge of allegiance.  

           13                      (Pledge of allegiance.)

           14              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  We have got some new faces   

           15    here, so we can do introductions.  Start over here with  

           16    Don Maben.

           17              MEMBER MABEN:  Don Maben.  I represent all of the 

           18    elected people.  

           19              DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  If I could get your 

           20    introductions to be a little longer.  I would like to 

           21    explain our situation first with our new appointees.  We 

           22    currently understand as of 45 minutes ago, the appointment 

           23    letters were actually found sitting on the Secretary's 

           24    desk.  And the Secretary is in the building, and meaning 

           25    the Secretary of Interior.  And we are hoping that we can 

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            1    get approval for those letters -- appointment letters for 

            2    our five new members and that they can be signed today.  

            3    And that our new members that are -- our new member that 

            4    are elects that are sitting around the table with us here 

            5    can become full-fledged acting members today.  

            6              But we did invite them to this meeting in 

            7    anticipation of receiving those appointment letters and 

            8    they are here.  So if, you know, rather than a short 

            9    introduction, if you could give us -- if each of us could 

           10    give a little detailed introduction, I think that would be 

           11    helpful to the new members.  

           12              MEMBER MABEN:  I have the Cal Coolidge method of 

           13    speaking, which is not to say much.  Any how, I am the 

           14    Second District Supervisor for the County of Kern.  I have 

           15    been involved in the desert activities.  I sit on Desert 

           16    Manager's Group representing Kern County.  And I am also 

           17    part of Ed Waldhiem's with the Jawbone.  I have been 

           18    involved with the desert most of my life.  

           19              Too loud?  

           20              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  You are fine.  

           21              MEMBER MABEN:  Usually, it's so soft.  That's 

           22    pretty much it in a nut shell.

           23              MEMBER RUDNICK:  How are you going to vote?  

           24              All right.  Good morning.  Good afternoon, I 

           25    guess.  I have been traveling all morning.  My name is 

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            1    Richard Rudnick and I represent Renewable Resources.  I am 

            2    a cattle rancher in the Western Mojave primarily in the -- 

            3    from Jawbone Canyon to Onex, California, on the Onyx 

            4    Ranch.  

            5              And previously, in the '80s, I was on this 

            6    council and it was quite a different makeup in those days.  

            7    And I am really happy.  It seemed like the years have gone 

            8    by and I am an old-timer already.  

            9              So I would like to welcome all the new members.  

           10    And I know how you feel, I still feel like a new member.  

           11    So welcome.  

           12              MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Hi.  My name is Dinah Shumway.  

           13    I am a geologist.  I received my Bachelor's at Long Beach 

           14    State College, that was Long Beach State College in Long 

           15    Beach, California.  I have a Master's Degree in Economic 

           16    Geology from Dartmouth College.  I have worked for a 

           17    variety of public agencies, cities, counties.  

           18              Most recently, I spent ten years finishing up my 

           19    Public Sector Degree with the State of California in the 

           20    Department of Conservation in the Classification Program 

           21    where my area of responsibility was Mono County through 

           22    Imperial County including Kern County and San Bernardino 

           23    and Riverside County.  

           24              I have been in the mining business for 40 years.  

           25    And I now have my own consulting company.  Most of my 

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            1    clients are, of course, mining companies and people who 

            2    have properties that may have some mineral potential.  

            3              As you know, since mining includes biology, I 

            4    work with a variety of scientists that have a variety of 

            5    expertise, including botanists, biologists, water people, 

            6    air people.  You name it, I will work with them.  

            7              I have been past Chairman of the Society of 

            8    Mining Engineers.  I currently hold a position as the 

            9    Educational Chairman.  I am an active member and develop 

           10    curricula.  I also have a teaching credential for the 

           11    California Chapter of Women in Mining.  

           12              I am also active and associated with 

           13    geoscientists.  And I currently am the Chairman of the 

           14    Mojave Desert Mining Chapter.  

           15              MEMBER JOHNSTON:  My name is Ron Johnston and I 

           16    just had the pleasure of meeting Dinah.  

           17              MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Thank you.  

           18              MEMBER JOHNSTON:  My name is Ron Johnston and I 

           19    live in San Diego and Joshua Tree.  I try to split the 

           20    times as equally between the two as I can because I really 

           21    love the desert and grew up in loving the desert.  My 

           22    grandfolks started taking me out there when I was about 

           23    four years old.  

           24              We are property owners in Joshua Tree and have 

           25    been in Yucca Valley, as well.  I am a member of Joshua 

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            1    Tree Chamber of Commerce.  I have been for about two 

            2    decades.          

            3              And I live in San Diego the rest of the time.  I 

            4    am the owner and president of a wholesale distribution 

            5    company for life insurance products for about forty life 

            6    insurance companies.  And in San Diego, Chair a Historic 

            7    Preservation Task Force Commission and have served as 

            8    leader in Chair in other community organizations within the 

            9    San Diego area.  

           10              I have also done about 30-some-odd television 

           11    commercials and a couple of films and have had the great 

           12    pleasure to be involved in this organization since January 

           13    of '07.  

           14              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Geary?  

           15              MEMBER HUND:  Hi.  My name is Geary Hund and I 

           16    represent conservation interests on the Desert Advisory 

           17    Committee.  I have a little over 30 years of experience in 

           18    the conservation field.  Twenty of those years were with 

           19    the California State Parks, but I have also worked for the 

           20    Federal Government Fish and Wildlife Service and Nonprofit 

           21    Nationwide Conservation Group of the Wilderness Society.  

           22              And I have come full circle.  I reinstated with 

           23    the State of California.  And I am now with the Coachella 

           24    Valley Mountains Conservancy.  And, of course, as the name 

           25    implies, we focus on the Coachella Valley and the 

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            1    surrounding mountains.  We have a 1.2 billion acre 

            2    territory and we acquire lands, acquire grant lands for 

            3    conservation and make grants to others for acquiring 

            4    conservation lands.  

            5              We work very closely with nonprofit organizations 

            6    and other State agencies and the BLM and the Forest Service 

            7    and other Federal agencies in that endeavor to acquire and 

            8    manage conservation lands in our area.  

            9              And just backing up a bit, when I was with 

           10    California State Parks, the first half of my career, I 

           11    served as a ranger and I was a law enforcement officer that 

           12    was involved in all aspects of park management.  And one of 

           13    my stints was as the Chief Ranger in Ocotillo Wells State 

           14    Vehicle Recreation area, so I certainly have a good sense 

           15    of management of off-road vehicle recreation.  

           16              And then the second half of my career, I served 

           17    as an ecologist doing ecological restoration and managing 

           18    the resources of the Inland Empire District of State Parks.  

           19    Thanks.      

           20              DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Well, I am not a DAC member, 

           21    but I am sitting here at the table getting to meet my new 

           22    DAC members, so maybe I will introduce myself at the same 

           23    time.  I am Steve Borchard.  I am the District Manager for 

           24    BLM here in the California Desert.  I have been in my 

           25    current position for about two and a half years.  

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            1              I have been managing natural resources 

            2    professionally now for 32 years.  I have worked in fire 

            3    programs, soils and vegetation inventory or watershed 

            4    restoration.  

            5              I spent eight years in my career in our 

            6    Washington office working on policy and budget.  I have 

            7    crossed several natural resource subactivity as well as 

            8    spent time on the Hill as a Senate staffer.  

            9              I have -- my educational background is in soil 

           10    science.  I enjoy working with all of the partners and all 

           11    of the BLM employees in the area and the Advisory Council 

           12    Members and all of the State and Federal agencies we get to 

           13    work with.  I look forward to learning more about you all, 

           14    both on the clock here at the meeting and after the meeting 

           15    social setting.

           16              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Social setting is always the 

           17    most fun.  

           18              My name is Tom Davis.  I have the pleasure 

           19    serving as the Vice Chair of the Council.  

           20              In my daytime job, my real job is I am a Chief 

           21    Planning Development Officer for the Agua Caliente Band of 

           22    Cahuilla Indians located in the Palm Springs/Western 

           23    Coachella Valley area.  We manage, oversee about 32,000 

           24    acres.  

           25              My background is -- I am an Educational Landscape 

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            1    Architect, but by public an Urban Planner.  And I serve 

            2    basically as a subset of by public-at-large, but as a 

            3    representative of the Native American interests.  

            4              I also am a Governor's Appointment to the 

            5    Colorado River Regional Water Quality Board.  I serve on 

            6    that Board.  And I am also presently on the Board of 

            7    Directors of Guide Dogs of the Desert.  So if you need to 

            8    know where to send a check, see me.  

            9              It is a pleasure to be here.  I think my tenure 

           10    on the DAC is about the same as Steve's.  

           11              Ron.  

           12              MEMBER SCHILLER:  My name is Ron Schiller.  I 

           13    represent recreation and this is getting near the end of my 

           14    last term.  My term expires December 31.  I was pretty much 

           15    raised in the California desert.  I did high school in 

           16    Ridgecrest, Barstow and Twentynine Palms.  My career 

           17    included 34 years at the Naval Air Warfare Center at China 

           18    Lake.  I retired not quite a year ago.  

           19              I participate in many forms of recreation, both 

           20    motorized and nonmotorized.  I am an avid hunter, 

           21    fisherman, rockhounds.  I am Vice President of the Local 

           22    Gem and Mineral Society in Ridgecrest.  

           23              I also chair the High Desert Multiple Use 

           24    Coalition, which is a Ridgecrest-based organization of 

           25    multiple users who have a stake in public lands and 

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            1    participate in many of the agencies' ongoing projects with 

            2    the BLM Enforcement Services web.  

            3               Thank you.  

            4               MEMBER HOLIDAY:  My name is Dick Holiday.  I 

            5    represent the recreation.  I am retired from the Southern 

            6    California Edison Company.  I worked for them for 30 years 

            7    as a manager at the Interview Energy Control Center taking 

            8    care of the computers and the power system.  

            9              I am also a member of American Sand Association 

           10    on the Board of Directors.  I am on the Action Committee.  

           11    I don't know if you are familiar with the Action Committee.  

           12    They give out money for recreation areas.  That's about all 

           13    for me.  

           14              MEMBER GROSSLASS:  My name is Meg Grossglass and 

           15    I represent public-at-large.  I am an employee for the 

           16    Off-Road Business Association, the Trade Association of 

           17    Off-Road Businesses.  And I have been a recreation advocate 

           18    probably since the early '90s.  

           19              Previously, I was a homemaker.  And now I have a 

           20    teenager, so it is time to get out in the real world.  

           21    That's it.  

           22              MEMBER BANIS:  Good afternoon.  My name is    

           23    Randy Banis.  I am one of the new members appointed to or 

           24    any minute to be appointed as a representative of the 

           25    public-at-large.  

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            1              I was originally born and raised in Northern 

            2    Maine adjacent to the northern terminus of the Appalachian 

            3    Trail, but after 18 years of pumping water out of my dad's 

            4    basement and not seeing the forest through the trees, I 

            5    cashed -- I sold my guitar amplifier for a one-way ticket 

            6    and moved to Beverly, Hills, that is.  Actually, to UCLA to 

            7    study Political Science with an emphasis in Public 

            8    Administration.  

            9              But fast-forwarding, eventually, my time -- my 

           10    enjoyment of recreation in the desert led me to move to the 

           11    Desert District.  I now live on the edge of the District in 

           12    Leona Valley on the outskirts of Palmdale.  And about six 

           13    or seven years ago, I was pleased to be welcomed by folks 

           14    in the Ridgecrest area and in the Kern County area to join 

           15    them in working with the BLM and other agencies and helping 

           16    to collaboratively influence their development and 

           17    recreation strategies.  And I have enjoyed that very much. 

           18    And since, served with the Ridgecrest Steering Committee 

           19    and on the Dumont Dunes TRT.  

           20              So this is, indeed, very much a pleasure for me 

           21    and a privilege and an honor.  I would like to thank those 

           22    who took the time to support my candidacy.  You all know 

           23    how long and how much I had hoped at some point to be a 

           24    part of this body.  So I am looking forward to my time here 

           25    with all of you.  Thank you.  

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            1              MEMBER SALL:  Thank you.  My name is April Sall 

            2    and I am also soon hoping to be appointed any minute.  I 

            3    work for a nonprofit organization called the Wildlands 

            4    Conservancy and Preserve Manager for Yucaipa Canyon Mission 

            5    Creeks Preserves and our Conservation Director and they 

            6    work on renewable energy issues.  

            7              And the Wildlands Conservancy does a lot of 

            8    collaborative work with BLM and has donated land for the 

            9    Bureau of Land Management and worked on a lot of projects 

           10    that border our preserves.  

           11              Previously, I worked for the National Park 

           12    Service in Natural Resources and in Fire Facts and received 

           13    education in Northern California at Humboldt State in 

           14    biology.  And transferred back to the desert.  

           15              I am a third generation resident in a town called 

           16    Pike's Canyon, which is near Yucca Valley and Pioneer Town 

           17    area and now I manage a preserve that includes my 

           18    grandmother's homestead.          

           19              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  All right.  I guess the next 

           20    item is approve the September '07 Needles meeting minutes.  

           21              MEMBER MABEN:  Mr. Chairman, I have a correction.  

           22    On page 81, line two, where it says Compton Road, it should 

           23    be Conklin, C-O-N-K-L-I-N.  

           24              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Any other comments, corrections?   

           25              MEMBER MABEN:  Motion to approve as a member.   

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            1              MEMBER RUDNICK:  Second.

            2              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  All those in favor say aye?  

            3    Opposed?  Note that the chair is abstaining.  Okay.  

            4              State Director's Report.  

            5              MR. DEARING:  My name is John Dearing.  I work 

            6    for Jan Bedrosian in the Internal Affairs office.  I am 

            7    here on behalf of Mike Pool, the State Director, to give 

            8    you an overview of a few state and national issues.  

            9             And first of all, I want to let you know that I am 

           10    a Media Relations person in External Affairs, but also 

           11    do the -- I am also the Advisory Council Liaison, so this 

           12    long process of getting you new nominees appointed has been 

           13    pretty much on my lap for the last three weeks.  Virtually, 

           14    every day I have been on the phone with Washington trying 

           15    to see where the heck your package is and why it isn't 

           16    signed yet.  

           17              And I do apologize for it taking so long.  It is 

           18    a rather rigorous process.  Once it gets back to 

           19    Washington, it goes through 24 different signatures for 

           20    approval before it gets to the Secretary's desk.  And it 

           21    has taken an inordinate amount of time this time.  

           22    Hopefully, we will fix that in the near future.  The new 

           23    applications are almost due, Steve, so we get to do this 

           24    again pretty soon.  

           25              Mike Pool does send his thanks to each of you for 

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            1    serving.  He values your views and observations and your 

            2    counsel.  And he thanks you very much for serving on the 

            3    Council.  

            4              I would like to welcome the new nominees at this 

            5    point.  I was hoping to bring good news today and saying 

            6    the letters were signed, but as Steve mentioned about an 

            7    hour ago, they were still on the Secretary's desk.  So, 

            8    hopefully, by the end of the day, but it is getting late 

            9    back there, so soon.  

           10              First of all, let me go into a couple of national 

           11    priorities of BLM Director Caswell.  His priorities are the 

           12    helping the Lands Initiative.  This includes the CDCA 

           13    Landscape Initiative, which is new for FY 2009.  It might 

           14    bring some money with that initiative.  There is a flyer 

           15    like this I think that is in your binder that explains a 

           16    little bit about what that initiative is all about.  It's 

           17    also on the national office web page as well.         

           18              His other priority is managing for excellence.  

           19    That doesn't affect you here in the desert.  They already 

           20    are a three-tier system with field offices, the District 

           21    Manager and then the State Director, so it is three-tier.  

           22    Northern and Central California are going to go to that 

           23    system or back to that system.  

           24              The other priority is the National Landscape 

           25    Conservation System.  I will get into that in a moment.  

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            1    And then, of course, Development of Domestic Energy 

            2    Resources, which is very huge right now.  

            3              First of all, appropriations, the markup which 

            4    was scheduled for earlier this week was canceled.  It 

            5    doesn't look good that the Appropriations Bill will be 

            6    passed this fiscal year and that we are going to be on a 

            7    continuing resolution through the first part of the fiscal 

            8    year, which starts in September, I believe.  Right?  And 

            9    probably not until the new administration is in place, 

           10    whenever that may be.  

           11              So in the meantime, we will be operating on the 

           12    current fiscal budget, so things will remain flatline for 

           13    the foreseeable future, anyway.  

           14              Other legislation, there are a number of pieces 

           15    of legislation before Congress that are very important to 

           16    you, four of them in particular, the National Landscape 

           17    Conservation System Act, the Bono Mack Bill, the Boxer 

           18    McKeon Bill and the Pechanga Bill.  

           19              The National Landscape Conservation System Act is 

           20    part of the Omnibus Public Lands Bill.  This Act would 

           21    codify the designation of the National Landscape 

           22    Conservation System.  That's wherever monuments, wild 

           23    scenic rivers, wilderness areas, special areas, forest 

           24    reserves, all follow under that conservation system.  

           25              Currently, this Act is in the queue and it's 

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            1    supposed to be on the Senate floor by late summer or early 

            2    fall.  

            3             Bono Mack Wilderness Bill or otherwise known as 

            4    the California Desert and Mountain Heritage Act, had passed 

            5    in the House in June.  This bill designates Federal lands 

            6    in Riverside County as wilderness or a wild and scenic 

            7    river and so on.  This bill would affect Beauty Mountain, 

            8    Orocopia Mountains, Pinto Mountains and Chuckwalla 

            9    Mountains.  Additional changes were made to move wilderness 

           10    boundaries away from designated energy corridors.  That was 

           11    a bit of a contention at first.  

           12             Next is the Boxer and McKeon Wilderness Bill, 

           13    otherwise known as the Eastern Sierra and Northern Gabriel 

           14    Wild Heritage Act of 2008.  It was introduced in May.  This 

           15    act would add over 430,000 acres to the National Wilderness 

           16    Preservation System.  If enacted, it would designate the 

           17    Grand Mountains Wilderness and other small pieces of 

           18    wilderness attached to the Forest Service.  It would also 

           19    designate the Amargosa Wild and Scenic River and it is a 

           20    larger compromise bill with Senator Boxer of an assistant 

           21    drafted bill that was introduced by Representative McKeon 

           22    last year.  BLM recently testified in favor of all three of 

           23    these bills with some slight changes.        

           24              The Pechanga Band of Pechanga Luiseno Indians 

           25    Land Transfer Act of 2007, this bill passed in the House 

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            1    last year.  It would transfer about 1,200 acres of land in 

            2    Riverside and San Diego Counties to be held in trust for 

            3    the Pechanga Band.  Land use is restricted to protection of 

            4    archeological, cultural and wildlife values.  It also 

            5    conveys the utility corridor to San Diego Gas and Electric 

            6    Company.  We also testified in favor of this bill.  

            7              Renewable energy, as you all know, is huge right 

            8    now.  It's very important to the Director Caswell and the 

            9    State Director Pool as well as the Governor of California.  

           10    One of the things that is going to do to happen that 

           11    affects this Council, there will be a representative for 

           12    renewable energy on the Desert Advisory Council effective 

           13    the next nomination cycle, which is coming up soon.  

           14              BLM recently added Greg Miller as the Renewable 

           15    Energy Project Manager here in the desert district.  Greg 

           16    will be making a report, I believe, later on this afternoon 

           17    on renewable energy applications and so on in the desert.  

           18              And this week, earlier this week, we brought on 

           19    board a presidential management fellow by the name of 

           20    Ashley Conrad Sada (as pronounced) as the Renewable Energy 

           21    Project Manager in the state office.  

           22              And as you may know, the Solar Programmatic 

           23    Environmental Impact Statement is on the way; however, the 

           24    applications moratorium was lifted and we are receiving 

           25    applications and we will process them as quickly as we can.  

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            1              There are also geothermal, wind and soil 

            2    renewable project proposals throughout the state including 

            3    Northern California and Central California, not just here 

            4    in the desert.  

            5              Finally, fire preparedness.  We are already into 

            6    a very tough and early fire season, which started in 

            7    Northern California.  As of yesterday, there were 2,093 

            8    fires.  2,062 of them have been contained, but there is 

            9    still 31 raging out of control.  

           10              BLM is working closely with our sister agencies 

           11    and with the state and we remain on high preparedness to 

           12    attack these fires, particularly, where they threaten homes 

           13    and businesses.  With the help of the community fire 

           14    councils, fire state councils, we ask you and the public to 

           15    keep vigilant and diligent in creating defensible space 

           16    where applicable.  So it's going to be a tough season.  We 

           17    anticipate the fires moving down this way later on, but we 

           18    are prepared.  

           19              Any questions?  With the help of Steve and his 

           20    staff, I will do my best to answer what I can.  

           21              MEMBER HUND:  Was it BLM's decision, which I 

           22    applied to prepare a Programmatic EIS Solar Energy 

           23    Development, how will that effect, if at all, the existing 

           24    applications and proposed projects?  

           25              DIRECTOR DEARING:  Well, the Programmatic EIS is 

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            1    supposed to get like an umbrella from which to operate 

            2    from; however, each project will have its own environmental 

            3    impact process.  It will be on a case-by-case basis.  So 

            4    that will exist as the applications are processed and 

            5    accepted.  If they are accepted, they will have to go 

            6    through that process.  

            7              Until the Programmatic Environmental Impact 

            8    Statement is completed, that's the way we are going to 

            9    continue to operate.  

           10              Is that pretty much the way you understand it?   

           11              DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Well, some of the other 

           12    products that we hope to see coming out of the Programmatic 

           13    EIS are best management practices that would be applied to 

           14    individual projects.  And, of course, BLM is not completed 

           15    approval of a single project that is also in its parallel 

           16    track at the same time PEIS is going and those best 

           17    management practices would be applied to that individual 

           18    project.  

           19              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Programmatic EIS has also been a 

           20    tenuous area given that you have one at the start and then 

           21    for years afterwards, people are coming back, in fact, a 

           22    negative declaration for all documents.  This just seems to 

           23    be a particularly messy issue for sort of EIR because you 

           24    have got people asking for 10, 20, 100 times more land than 

           25    they could ever hope to use.  

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            1              And so how do you come with a Programmatic EIR 

            2    that deals with this never-never land of how much of the 

            3    desert is being asked to put in a particular area?  

            4              DIRECTOR DEARING:  I don't particularly have an 

            5    answer to that.  I know that Greg Miller is probably going 

            6    to addressing that later on.  

            7              Steve?  

            8              DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I know one of the objections 

            9    or questions that had been posed during the scoping is a 

           10    question very similar to that, Tom, is how do we come up 

           11    with siting, potentially siting criteria that would avoid 

           12    or minimize conflicts with other values and other existing 

           13    in the future potential uses.  

           14              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  It is an opportunity to have an 

           15    overarching document which allows you to have more 

           16    opportunities to plan, which I think is great.  But the 

           17    other danger it is an overarching document which takes away 

           18    all of your ability to plan later on.

           19              DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  People have a tendency to 

           20    rely on that document, not what the mechanism under which 

           21    it is originally framed.  

           22              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Sure.  Anybody with any brains 

           23    uses the strategy to get as much as you can through 

           24    initially because then all of these things will roll on 

           25    later on and then you can say it's a Programmatic EIR.  And 

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            1    to say it is insufficient, it doesn't matter because it has 

            2    already been adopted.  There is a little bit of a problem 

            3    with that.  

            4              Don?  

            5              MEMBER MABEN:  Yes.  I just wanted, your last 

            6    comment on Fire Safety Councils, if you would take a 

            7    message to Mr. Pool and thank him for BLM's Bakersfield 

            8    office, which is stationed in Kern County's Fire Safe 

            9    Council.  They have been a valuable partner.  

           10              DIRECTOR DEARING:  Yeah.  We value those Fire 

           11    Safe Councils immensely.  They are just a huge help and a 

           12    huge success.  I think they have done some outstanding 

           13    things out there.       

           14              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Randy?

           15              MEMBER BANIS:  Randy Banis, public-at-large.  The 

           16    National Landscape Conservation System Proposal, what 

           17    additional tools might that provide to BLM in its toolbox 

           18    that it doesn't already have for managing the lands?  

           19              DIRECTOR DEARING:  Well, the primary importance 

           20    to the Act passing is it doesn't codify it.  It's not just 

           21    a proposal or a suggestion anymore.  It's actually in 

           22    books.  

           23              It does add a little bit more importance to it, 

           24    maybe a touch more conservation aspect to it, but we are 

           25    already managing in that regard anyway.  It just adds just 

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            1    a tiny level of importance in conservation of it.  It does 

            2    codify it.  It becomes law.  

            3              DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  There are those that think 

            4    that codification into law will -- could lead to funding, 

            5    additional funding appropriations.  

            6              DIRECTOR DEARING:  Anything else?  

            7              All on behalf of Mr. Pool, I thank you very much 

            8    for letting me come down and be with you this afternoon.  

            9              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Thank you, Mr. Dearing.  

           10              Before we go to Council member reports, Tom Scott 

           11    has entered the room.  Tom, prior to you getting here, we 

           12    all did a little introduction because we have new faces and 

           13    you are obligated to identify yourself and tell a little 

           14    about your background.  

           15              MEMBER SCOTT:  I am Tom Scott.  I represent 

           16    Wildlife on the DAC.  And I am with University of 

           17    California and, actually, in cooperative extension, which 

           18    means I do outreach for land owners primarily dealing with 

           19    this question on how do we integrate wildlife into a 

           20    credibly rapidly developing state with a lot of conflicting 

           21    resource and land use.  

           22              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Thank you.  

           23              All right.  Council member comments?  Wild, crazy 

           24    ideas?  

           25              Do you want to start, Ron?  

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            1              MEMBER SCHILLER:  I will start.  Sure.  

            2              I would like to address three issues that I am 

            3    right now extremely frustrated with and they are 

            4    long-lingering issues, the first one being Furnace Creek.  

            5    For those of you who don't know, Furnace Creek is a route 

            6    that was designated in the eastern side of the White 

            7    Mountains many years ago.  The route indicates to be over 

            8    100 years old.  It was closed by a lawsuit and it was 

            9    closed in 2002 by an emergency closure by the BLM after the 

           10    Center for Biodiversity lawsuit.  

           11              Over a year ago, the EA was completed by the BLM, 

           12    who was doing the U.S. Forest Service BLM Joint Process.  

           13    BLM completed the EA and the policy over a year ago.  The 

           14    BLM protested and BLM was instructed, as I understand it, 

           15    to rewrite the EA.  I don't see anything happening on that 

           16    at all.  

           17              I have gone to the Forest Service.  The Forest 

           18    Service says, well, we are waiting on the BLM.  The BLM 

           19    says, oh, we are waiting on the Forest Service.  It is kind 

           20    of frustrating.  

           21              Now we are to the point where we have got 

           22    wilderness considerations in that area.  Neither one of the 

           23    agencies has finished the process.  Those were issued -- 

           24    that issue started before I was appointed in my first 

           25    appointment.  I am now finishing my second three-year term, 

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            1    and we still aren't any farther on that process than we 

            2    were the day I started.  

            3              The second issue that I am concerned about is 

            4    Surprise Canyon.  Surprise Canyon was closed in 2002, 

            5    again, as a temporary closure as a result of a settlement 

            6    agreement.  And we still haven't got anywhere on that.  I 

            7    was assigned to that TRT, Technical Review Team, the very 

            8    first meeting I attended.  We have had, oh, I think we 

            9    might have had two meetings and we still aren't anywhere 

           10    near the settlement on that process one way or the other.  

           11    I think the public deserves a little more consideration 

           12    than that after, what, six years, five, yeah, six years.  

           13              The third issue I am concerned about is a portion 

           14    of the West Mojave Management Plan.  The Record of Decision 

           15    was signed over two years ago.  And in that Record of 

           16    Decision, it said that the BLM would start a process for 

           17    the El Paso and the Ridgecrest Resource Area in developing 

           18    the collaborative access planning area and start doing 

           19    inventory and assigning routes.  

           20              As I review it, and I have got the pertinent 

           21    information from the West Mojave here with me if anybody is 

           22    interested, but it clearly states that you will start that 

           23    within five years or complete that within five years.  We 

           24    haven't even started.  

           25              As far as I am concerned, I think that's 

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            1    inexcusable.  I have been told we don't have the funding to 

            2    do that right now.  But if you don't get it done, we are 

            3    going to be back in court and a lawsuit and an emergency 

            4    closures to close down areas again.  And I think that's 

            5    very frustrating and I think that we should do that.  

            6             I understand that some of the routes have been 

            7    designated into El Paso Mountains based on the '85/'87 

            8    inventory.  That is inappropriate.  That is, according to 

            9    the West Mojave Plan that states that the '85/'87 routes 

           10    will be used in the interim in the ACEC El Paso Mountains 

           11    until the CAPA or the collaborative process is done with 

           12    local government and I just think that's inexcusable.  

           13    That's my statement.  

           14              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Do you want to respond to that, 

           15    Steve, or the field manager to address any of those 

           16    subjects?  

           17             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Well, I think I will take a 

           18    shot at Furnace Creek and Surprise Canyon and maybe I will 

           19    ask Hector to, I guess, share what he envisions for the     

           20    El Paso.  I know Hector and I talked about it infrequently.  

           21             Furnace Creek first.  A new forest supervisor has 

           22    come on board.  And as you mentioned, our environmental 

           23    assessment and decision on Furnace Creek is a -- will be a 

           24    combined agency decision because the lower part of Furnace 

           25    Creek is on BLM land and the upper part is on Forest 

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            1    Service, so any decision on a route transcends down where 

            2    it should be collectively completed with the two agencies 

            3    who manage that route.  

            4              The forest supervisor has asked BLM to wait until 

            5    his forest archeologist has time to complete his highest 

            6    priority project, which is route designation work on the 

            7    forest.  Once their archeologist completes that work, then 

            8    he will be -- he or she will be able to work with the BLM 

            9    on completing the cultural resources work necessary and the 

           10    tribal consultation work necessary to complete the Furnace 

           11    Creek planning.  

           12              At that point in time, we will revise our 

           13    Environmental Assessment, put it out for another 30 days.  

           14    I don't have a time line.  I can't tell you, unless Hector 

           15    has been given a time line by the forest supervisor there.  

           16    I don't know what the time line is on that.  

           17              We can't move forward on the lower part of the 

           18    route and make a decision and then leave the upper part of 

           19    the route hanging.  That would be unwise.  

           20              Surprise Canyon, here again, we have a situation 

           21    where the route begins on BLM and then moves into the Park 

           22    Services Death Valley Park, so we went down that doing a 

           23    joint Environmental Impact Statement with Death Valley and 

           24    in working with Death Valley to create an analysis of the 

           25    issues that suits each agencies' needs.  That's been a slow 

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            1    process.  I think currently we are in our third draft of 

            2    the Environmental Impact Statement where we work on 

            3    sections of those and sending to the Park Services and they 

            4    send it back.  

            5              That's been a low priority for us.  I will admit 

            6    that and go on the record.  It's been a low priority for 

            7    us.  And unless something changes in my priority setting, 

            8    it will continue to be a low priority for us.  

            9              You are going to hear time and again and we have 

           10    already heard it, we have limited funding and limited 

           11    staffing and a lot of issues that face us.  And, frankly, 

           12    when you are in that situation, as much as you are in your 

           13    own budgeting situation, you will set your priorities and 

           14    do what you can do and that's what we can do.  

           15              We are setting our priorities.  And they are 

           16    setting the national office and the state office and it 

           17    tiers down to us.  Surprise Canyon is going to remain low 

           18    priority unless I am told differently by my supervisors.  

           19              Hector, do you want to give us your thoughts and 

           20    a time line for El Paso?  

           21              I know Hector and I have talked about El Paso and 

           22    our need for funding to move forward on that project.  

           23              MR. VILLALOBOS:  My name is Hector Villalobos, 

           24    Field Manager in the Ridgecrest area.  

           25              The West Mojave Plan Amendment identifies a large 

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            1    area in the El Paso and Ridgecrest for future planning 

            2    effort.  It probably covers around 300,000 acres.  The area 

            3    includes some historic wilderness area.  Probably around 

            4    600 miles of route that are already open in the area.  And 

            5    none of those have been closed, to my knowledge.  So they 

            6    are all open right now.  The public is able to use all 

            7    those routes and gain access other than to the wilderness 

            8    area.  

            9              West Mojave did provide the interim existing 

           10    route situation out there while we launch into the planning 

           11    effort.  Now, the planning effort is supposed to be 

           12    collaborative with the county and other stake holders in 

           13    the area.  

           14              By the way, also, the area is open to sheep 

           15    grazing.  Sheep grazing occurs there.  So, you know, the 

           16    lack of planning in the area has not impacted the multi-use 

           17    in the area.  

           18              We still have a lot of recreation going on in the 

           19    area.  We still have sheep grazing going on in the area.  

           20    And there are other multi-uses occurring in El Paso.  

           21              The problem has been for us in Ridgecrest is that 

           22    our capacity with staffing and funding.  Over the years, I 

           23    believe we have at least identified the need for funding 

           24    the planning effort at least two or maybe even three  

           25    times.  The latest was for FY '09.  We identified it as 

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            1    priority to get planning money.

            2              As I see it right now, in FY 2009, future 

            3    planning did not provide any funding for the planning 

            4    effort for Ridgecrest.  So that's where we are at.  We have 

            5    no funding.  

            6              Our limited staffing right now is really going to 

            7    a lot of high priority stuff that we have on our plate.  

            8    The renewable resources are on our plate right now along 

            9    with a few other of these types of situations.  

           10              So I can understand your frustration, Ron, with 

           11    the lack of moving forward with CAPA.  However, I want to 

           12    let everybody know that multi-use is still occurring in   

           13    El Paso.  Lots of trails are still open.  And I don't see 

           14    the impacts that might lead us down the road to a closure.  

           15              And in the future, I think we have to put these 

           16    things in perspective.  We do have our staffing right now 

           17    working on a number of renewable energy projects.  We have 

           18    to get those off our plate.  We have a few other projects 

           19    that we need to move forward on, too.  

           20              One of the priority ones that I am looking at is 

           21    the grant that happens to get that rider education program 

           22    completed in that area, too.  

           23              So we are going to continue to identify it as a 

           24    priority in Ridgecrest and continue to ask for funding to 

           25    do that planning effort.  We need to do inventories and 

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            1    more complete route inventory of the area along with 

            2    resource inventories.  

            3              It does have other conservation concerns in that 

            4    area.  We do have Mohave ground squirrel and some of the 

            5    area has some Desert Tortoise wildlife concerns in the 

            6    area.  So it won't be -- it will be an effort that we need 

            7    to be able to dedicate resources both in funding and 

            8    staffing to get that complete.  

            9              MEMBER SCHILLER:  Thank you, Steve, for your 

           10    response.  I still have the frustration, though, with 

           11    Furnace Creek issue because that hasn't been done and, 

           12    therefore, now, we have the wilderness legislation that 

           13    wants to take it over and there is nothing in response to 

           14    that.  

           15              Secondly, the Surprise Canyon issue is 

           16    frustrating to me because we do have private property 

           17    owners in there.  But I know we do have some that bought 

           18    the property after it was closed, but we do have private 

           19    properties and there are several of them who do have 

           20    property in there that was legitimately owned and one is 

           21    a -- Family City is actually private property now.  

           22              Finally, my concern with the El Paso, and I 

           23    acknowledge that we are still having multiple use and I 

           24    appreciate that; however, we still have an inventory like 

           25    you said to do, which can be very time consuming and 

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            1    expensive.  We have public processes and stuff that has to 

            2    take place.  

            3              We have already used two-thirds of our time as 

            4    specified by the West Mojave Plan, which gave us five 

            5    years.  We have passed two years now.  So where are we 

            6    going to be when we have another Center for Biodiversity 

            7    come along and sue like they the did last time.  Most of 

            8    that I think was unfounded, but, nevertheless, the end 

            9    result was emergency closures until we went through some 

           10    process.  And that's just exasperating for many people.  

           11              Thank you very much.  

           12              DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I can address one of your 

           13    comments or at least your concerns and maybe put you at 

           14    rest.  

           15              I guess, first of all, I failed to say that I 

           16    share your frustration.  I pushed hard on both Furnace and 

           17    Surprise for a couple of years and shared the same 

           18    frustration that you continue to share.  It's not as fresh 

           19    on my mind as it has been in the past.  

           20              Your concern about litigation because of half the 

           21    time frame going by, I -- that doesn't concern me because I 

           22    am aware of a court decision that came out of Utah that did 

           23    not result in a negative decision affecting the land 

           24    management agency on a planning issue.  And that I think -- 

           25    that is a precedent that makes me not worry about that time 

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            1    line that was set in WEMO.  

            2              And, basically, what the judge said in that case 

            3    was, well, if the agency wasn't given money to do the job, 

            4    then you can't hold it to the time line that was written in 

            5    the plan.  

            6              So if we are not giving money to work in the    

            7    El Paso and we don't comply with that time line, I am not 

            8    concerned about being litigated based on that time line 

            9    alone.  

           10              MEMBER SCHILLER:  Okay.  Thank you.  You are lot 

           11    more comfortable with it than I am except that this is my 

           12    family tradition and my recreation is my back door that I 

           13    enjoy with my grandkids and I don't want it to go away.  

           14              DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I hear you.  

           15              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Don?  

           16              MEMBER MABEN:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.  Don Maben for 

           17    the record.  

           18              In our last meeting in March, we had a request 

           19    that the public be allowed to comment at the end of each 

           20    topic so that their comments would be relevant and I just 

           21    ask that we comply with that request.

           22              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Okay.  Steve, I wasn't at the 

           23    last meeting.  What exactly is the protocol for public 

           24    comment?  

           25              DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  If that is what the Board 

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            1    would like to do, the Council would like to do, then the 

            2    Council can support that; however, I would caution the 

            3    Council, if we go that route, I think there should be a 

            4    time limit put on comments at the end of each topic.  

            5              The conduct of the last meeting where there was 

            6    audience participation without first being given the floor 

            7    by the speaker did not make for a productive and timely 

            8    meeting.  If the Council would like to make a vote upon the 

            9    idea of having a comment period, then that's the Council's 

           10    pleasure.  

           11              MEMBER MABEN:  What I would like to offer is what 

           12    we do at the County is at the end of a -- when we have an 

           13    agenda item, the public is allowed three minutes, each to 

           14    speak.  You can ask questions.  We do not answer or respond 

           15    to the questions until all of the public is through 

           16    speaking.  And it is at that point, staff will respond to 

           17    the questions, so you don't get this interaction that goes 

           18    on forever.  

           19              It works fairly well and most people won't even 

           20    take two minutes let alone three.  

           21              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Well, if that's the pleasure of 

           22    the Council.  I know I am familiar with the public hearing 

           23    process with the State.  Normally, there is items on the 

           24    agenda that are identified as public hearing items and then 

           25    there are items that are maybe discussed items, Legislative 

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            1    items that are not open to public comment.  And then 

            2    generally speaking, comments are made during the public 

            3    comments portion.  

            4              So right now, we have nonagenda item public 

            5    comment item on the agenda and we were going to add a 

            6    public comment at the end of this day's meeting to 

            7    accommodate public comments for people that are here in 

            8    addition to the one tomorrow.  

            9              So what is the Council's desire otherwise?  

           10              MEMBER SCHILLER:  Well, having been in both ends 

           11    of the room, it can be very frustrating to be in the 

           12    audience and have two or three agenda items come up and not 

           13    be able to respond when the atmosphere is gone onto other 

           14    nonrelated items on the agenda.  I would suggest after each 

           15    subject is discussed, a brief comment period should be 

           16    allowed.  

           17              I know Ron was sensitive to that when he was 

           18    chair.  And I know that several in the audience have asked 

           19    for a comment period just very briefly on an agenda item 

           20    that is the subject.  That's what I would feel comfortable 

           21    with.  

           22              Besides that, I am going to be out there pretty 

           23    quick.  

           24              MEMBER MABEN:  On second thought.

           25              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  So -- well, okay.  Let's do 

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            1    this.  First of all, we need to complete the Council Member 

            2    Reports.  

            3              Is that something that you want to have a public 

            4    comment follow-up on?  

            5              MEMBER MABEN:  On the Council member reports, I 

            6    don't think that is an agenda item.  When we get to the 

            7    meat of the agenda, Council members are basically -- 

            8              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Okay.  

            9              MEMBER MABEN:  Our reports are just like the 

           10    public reports, but they are not agenda items.  

           11              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  So I am going to lead to the 

           12    assumption here that the items on the agenda that are bold 

           13    typed would be those items which would follow up with 

           14    public comment.  

           15              MEMBER MABEN:  I would concur.  

           16              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  I am trying to get a consensus 

           17    here.  

           18              Is there any more comments or other discussion on 

           19    that particular item?  

           20              So why don't we do this by motion.  

           21              DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  So, Tom, can you give me an 

           22    example what would allow the public to comment on looking 

           23    at this agenda?  

           24              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  If you go to the second page of 

           25    the agenda, there is a CDD Renewable Energy Program Review 

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            1    that's in bold type.  That's an agenda subject, agenda 

            2    item.  

            3              We also have the public comments not on the 

            4    agenda which follows this discussion.  And then we will 

            5    have a public comment period following that, that item that 

            6    is scheduled for 3:00.  

            7              And then tomorrow, you have bold typed items, 

            8    South Coast Resource Management Plan update, International 

            9    Border update, Adopt-a-Cabin update, Twentynine Palms 

           10    Expansion update, SB 742 and Rand Mountain TRT update, we 

           11    will all have public comments following those.  

           12              MEMBER MABEN:  Mr. Chairman, if you have the 

           13    public comment of nonadgenda items and the public comment 

           14    on those bold items, I don't think you need an additional 

           15    follow-up public comment on top of it.

           16              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Okay.  So we will eliminate the 

           17    public comment at the end of the day today that we 

           18    anticipated.        

           19              MEMBER MABEN:  Fine with me.  

           20              MEMBER HUND:  I just support the direction we are 

           21    heading.  I didn't want to say that my support would be 

           22    contingent upon what Steve said, that whoever speaks is 

           23    recognized by the Chair, otherwise, we cut them off.  And 

           24    then, also, we do have a time limit, normally three 

           25    minutes, and maybe at the Chair's discretion.  If we don't 

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            1    have a packed house, we can use our discretion how tightly 

            2    we stick within that three minutes.  I think, you know, at 

            3    least that should be within reason, stay within the time 

            4    limit.  

            5              And then also, Don, I wanted you to reiterate, 

            6    how do you handle the questions issues so that you don't 

            7    have a lot of back and forth because I -- 

            8              MEMBER MABEN:  The staff will note the questions 

            9    and then after all of the public comments are done, the 

           10    staff will reply to the questions; otherwise, what happens 

           11    if you reply initially, you end with the conversation going 

           12    on and the meeting goes on forever.  

           13              It's not the fairest system in the world, but 

           14    it's better than nothing.  

           15              MEMBER HUND:  My concern is if things go on and 

           16    on with one agenda item, that tends to take away from other 

           17    items that are of importance to members of the Council and 

           18    the public.

           19              MEMBER MABEN:  One of the other things that we do 

           20    is if we have 100 people in the audience that are here for 

           21    a particular issue, we will set a 30-minute time limit for 

           22    pro and a 30-minute time limit for con.  And if one person 

           23    uses the 30 minutes, the rest are off.  We express that in 

           24    the beginning so there is pressure to keep them moving.

           25              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Hopefully, we don't have that 

                      Gillespie Reporting and Document Management, Inc.    39



                                                                             

            1    happen.  

            2              MEMBER MABEN:  I know, but if for some reason we 

            3    did -- it's the only way you will ever get the meeting 

            4    done, but at least you have a meeting that people can 

            5    participate in to a degree.

            6              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  I understand.  I think it's 

            7    good.  

            8              MEMBER ACUNA:  30 minutes utilized by one person 

            9    at the cost of everyone else, I would suggest that maybe we 

           10    have one minute -- kind of assess how many people there are 

           11    and divide it fairly.  

           12              MEMBER MABEN:  You could do that.  

           13              MEMBER ACUNA:  Yu just don't want one person to 

           14    dominate the conversation.  

           15              MEMBER MABEN:  It's never happened at our 

           16    meetings because there is usually some big guy in the 

           17    audience that gets them moving

           18             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Also, what I do, I facilitate a 

           19    general issue of planning of reorganization and what I do 

           20    is I ask folks, you know, if they acknowledge that they 

           21    support or don't support a particular item, if that's 

           22    possible.  And also not to repeat the same comment over and 

           23    over.  Comments may be so duly noted and not to repeat 

           24    themselves.  

           25              So anyway, Richard, any comments on the Council 

                      Gillespie Reporting and Document Management, Inc.    40



                                                                             

            1    member comments section?  

            2              MEMBER HUND:  Sure.  Picking on me.  

            3              Do you want to start with Don then?  

            4              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  I thought Don was -- 

            5              MEMBER MABEN:  I think I am finished 

            6              MEMBER HUND:  Well, recently, in renewable 

            7    resources, we have all experienced it seems like in the 

            8    desert and in the mountains and the big fire season we are 

            9    having.  And it seems to me in working particularly on the 

           10    Piute Mountain fire which includes Forest Service, BLM and 

           11    private -- and I don't have that much experience with fires 

           12    and I understand there is a task force with the county now 

           13    and BLM -- but it seems to me that a little planning ahead 

           14    of time -- we know there is going to be fires, but in 

           15    working with the folks, the BLM, the Forest Service, the 

           16    strike teams that come down from out-of-state don't know 

           17    the area.  

           18              A lot of times the local land owners and the 

           19    local citizens are forgotten about as to what is there, 

           20    what is valuable, and they make overflies, and one agency 

           21    does one thing and one agency is thinking another.  There 

           22    is not the coordination that I think that there should be.  

           23              And in some of these cases, there is not much you 

           24    can do, but it seems to me that the BLM, the Forest Service 

           25    could have some kind of initiative to have the planning for 

                      Gillespie Reporting and Document Management, Inc.    41



                                                                             

            1    firebreaks, where when fire strikes, where should you put 

            2    these.  

            3              I see firebreaks going in areas where it was 

            4    totally irrelevant to the fire and irrelevant to the 

            5    private land and the land to protect.  And also to the 

            6    timber.  

            7              So it just is fresh in my mind because we have 

            8    just gone through this, that there needs to be a little 

            9    more planning in this area it seems like to me.  

           10              And grazing continues to be diminished in the 

           11    desert.  That's kind of a personal pet peeve of mine, but 

           12    the last few dry years we have had, there hasn't been the 

           13    opportunity for the grazing as much as in the past

           14              I heard kind of a frightening thing from a water 

           15    engineer the other day, that his thoughts and some of his 

           16    colleagues were that the last hundred years, we have just 

           17    experienced what might be the wet time and we are looking 

           18    towards the dry time for the next hundred.  We will take it 

           19    one year at a time and see what happens.  

           20             Thank you.

           21             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Any response from staff?  

           22             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I am thinking maybe John might 

           23    know best about -- the Palm Springs office has been very 

           24    involved with community planning in the development of fuel 

           25    treatments and firebreaks.  

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            1             And maybe, John, if you could -- I think you are 

            2    probably familiar with the process that our people work 

            3    with the communities that are affected by fire and how we 

            4    plan fuel treatments.  Maybe you could best address the 

            5    concern that Richard has raised that involving planning of 

            6    preparedness for fires and fuel treatment.  

            7              I have to admit to you that I thought we were 

            8    fairly involved in our fuel treatment planning processes 

            9    and did involve property owners and community members in 

           10    that regard.  I know John goes to various community 

           11    meetings where that topic is discussed.

           12              MR. KALISH:  Yes.  My name is John Kalish,   

           13    Field Manager in Palm Springs.  Within Western Riverside 

           14    and San Diego counties, we have been very active in 

           15    planning for fire and planning fuel reduction projects, 

           16    working with fire safe councils.  A lot of close 

           17    coordination with CAL FIRE, between CAL FIRE, Forest 

           18    Service and BLM, just in a preplanned stage.  

           19              We have one group in San Diego County that border 

           20    the area fire council that involves all of the agencies 

           21    that are down close to the border.  It gets involved in 

           22    really the whole gamut of issues that tied into fire 

           23    protection, fuel reduction, potential for fuel reduction 

           24    projects as well as education providing safe zones around 

           25    occupied dwellings and that sort of thing.  

                      Gillespie Reporting and Document Management, Inc.    43



                                                                             

            1              So it's really a coordinating effort between the 

            2    various agencies involved, you know, with CAL FIRE and 

            3    county agencies and the federal, of course, with us, which 

            4    is Forest Service, Official Wildlife Service and BLM.  

            5              And then from an overall safety standpoint, we 

            6    bring in law enforcement and border patrol and those 

            7    agencies.  

            8              So that's really how in San Diego County and 

            9    Western Riverside how that's being handled.  We have 

           10    certainly gone through a whole planning process of where 

           11    the most effective fuel breaks ought to be placed.  

           12              And from a BLM standpoint, we have been able to 

           13    obtain funding to go out with some substantial contracts to 

           14    do the environmental work, make sure we are not impacting 

           15    some of the listed species, you know, the Checkerspot 

           16    Butterfly and the like.  

           17              And then that's when they bring the crews in to 

           18    do the fuels reduction.  And in some areas, we have been 

           19    very successful.  I mentioned earlier this morning, the 

           20    Fuel -- the Sunrise Fuel Break up in the Julian area, that 

           21    was a joint BLM/CAL FIRE project that on two different 

           22    fires has very remarkably saved the community of Julian 

           23    from some real high potential damage fires, very intense 

           24    fires at the time.  So it has been working fairly 

           25    successfully down in San Diego and western Riverside 

                      Gillespie Reporting and Document Management, Inc.    44



                                                                             

            1    counties.  

            2              The Fire Safe Councils are also a very effective 

            3    venue really to get out and really get the ideas to what 

            4    the local concerns are from needs of the communities.  I 

            5    know they are very well organized and we take a very active 

            6    role in coordinating with each of the community Fire Safe 

            7    Councils and getting their input as to their views on what 

            8    would be the most effective and especially in preparation 

            9    in our area where, you know, late summer, fall, when the 

           10    red flag, Santa Ana winds come through San Diego County, 

           11    that's the time that we really gear up.  So it is a 

           12    combined very coordinated sort of way between all of the 

           13    agencies.  

           14              MR. SCHILLER:  I am wondering, Hector, do you 

           15    know or, Richard, do you know if there is a Fire Safe 

           16    Council?  

           17              MR. RUDNICK:  There is. 

           18              MR. MABEN:  Can I respond to Richard's comments, 

           19    please?  

           20              Don Maben.  

           21              A couple of things that affected this fire; one, 

           22    the Fuel Reduction Plan and Timber Ambers Plan for the 

           23    Forest Service area was in the process of being implemented 

           24    when the lawsuit stopped it, so there was no fuel reduction 

           25    done.  

                      Gillespie Reporting and Document Management, Inc.    45



                                                                             

            1             Second, the fire crews, particularly the many Kern 

            2    County fire crews, because we had up to a thousand fires at 

            3    one time in the State of California, so there was a slower 

            4    response in getting a lot of the crews back on the lines.  

            5             And third, because of the switching wind problems, 

            6    it is sort of a horse you couldn't ride.  They thought they 

            7    would be protecting an area and the wind would switch and 

            8    go around them and come back in other areas.  So the 

            9    firebreaks, a lot of the firebreaks they were putting in 

           10    were basically last ditch.  And, of course, the rain came, 

           11    so that problem created a different problem.  

           12             MR. RUDNICK:  I guess one of the -- and I 

           13    understand all what you said, Don.  And the fire was,   

           14    that particular fire was short-handed.  But it seemed   

           15    when the firebreak, in particular, along Calsa Valley Road 

           16    (as pronounce) was put in, there was an archeologist out -- 

           17    it -- it was on BLM to be sure they didn't go through our 

           18    sites and destroy any natural habitat, also, that tried to 

           19    go around that and protect that.  

           20            The Forest Service had their group.  The BLM had 

           21    their group.  And you -- one, I don't think they, although, 

           22    they did have meetings, and they planned these fires very 

           23    good in the mornings and go out and implement the things.  

           24             There was a lot of things that could have been 

           25    planned in advance, I think, so that we didn't have people 

                      Gillespie Reporting and Document Management, Inc.    46



                                                                             

            1    crossing paths and going back and forth and stumbling over 

            2    each other.  

            3             In my little area, which is right close, we ended 

            4    up with Ridgecrest archeologists and ended up with 

            5    Bakersfield BLM archeologists and they are trying to figure 

            6    out who is the boss.  

            7             But it's something I don't want to belabor.  Just 

            8    a comment that we ought to look in the future.  

            9             MEMBER MABEN:  It sounds like we need better 

           10    coordination between the archeologists.  

           11             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Duly noted.  

           12             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Dinah, you don't have any 

           13    comments?  

           14             MS. SHUMWAY:  You mean in my area of expertise?                

           15             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Or comments.  It's the time for 

           16    Council member comments.  

           17             MS. SHUMWAY:  I am not aware that I am an official 

           18    Council member yet, but I won't shirk my duty.  I do have a 

           19    few comments and they all have to do with military 

           20    expansions on the BLM land.  

           21             In particular, the people out at the Hector spot 

           22    are concerned that the proposed military road as of a few 

           23    years ago between Fort Irwin and Twentynine Palms was, I 

           24    guess, in abeyance right now, but if that road is located 

           25    to the west of their plant, then they are going to be 

                      Gillespie Reporting and Document Management, Inc.    47



                                                                             

            1    dealing with a lot of transport dust from activity on that 

            2    road.  So that's an important thing to take care of it, 

            3    that dust mitigation will have to done on that road because 

            4    during certain seasons when, of course, it's all the time 

            5    now, it seems that there is a lot of military activity and 

            6    that does generate a lot of dust on those roads when those 

            7    vehicles go by, so that needs to be mitigated in some way 

            8    if that road is ever proposed.  

            9              In addition, the Twentynine Palms expansion to 

           10    the west in particular will literally engulf several iron 

           11    deposits.  Actually, it is the highest -- it's the largest 

           12    magnetic anomaly in the State of California.  And it 

           13    indicates that there at least is some big iron deposits 

           14    that they have subsurface data to indicate that that is, 

           15    indeed, a real potential.  So that is an important thing to 

           16    consider for the mining of the streets in the eventual 

           17    expansion in the Twentynine Palms Air Base -- or Marine 

           18    Base.  

           19              And my next comments are more in general.  Right 

           20    now, we are in an economic slowdown, so the production of 

           21    construction aggregate is not as important as it was two 

           22    years when we couldn't make enough to supply our growth.  

           23             Recent numbers in the High Desert area are 9.5.  

           24    9.5 is an incredible number considering that only three 

           25    years ago, the Department of Finance indicated that the 

                      Gillespie Reporting and Document Management, Inc.    48



                                                                             

            1    High Desert growth rates were around 7 percent for the 

            2    foreseeable future, which in their terms is about 20 years.  

            3    That's what an incredible amount of construction aggregate 

            4    should be if the economy comes back and it will probably 

            5    soon after the election.  

            6              And urban areas, San Bernardino, Yucca Valley, 

            7    Palm Springs identified construction aggregate resources 

            8    deplete.  We will be pulling more from the High Desert, 

            9    especially along the I-15 corridor, which as you all know, 

           10    a lot of that is BLM land.  

           11              So we are going to be looking at identifying 

           12    resources that are going to be able to be mined in the next 

           13    30 to 50 years.  And I think that's an important thing to 

           14    consider when we are talking about using other land for 

           15    uses that may not be compatible with mining.  For example, 

           16    solar.  Maybe not necessarily wind, but solar and wind will 

           17    take away areas that potentially could be as future 

           18    construction aggregate resources.  

           19             That's the end of my comments.

           20             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Ron?  

           21             MR. JOHNSTON:  Inasmuch as out of the desert 

           22    looking for comments regarding issues of import there, one 

           23    of the things that has recently come up is, and it echoes 

           24    what we have been talking about by Don and others 

           25    previously and that's the concern about fires.  

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            1              Last year with Pioneer Town, that whole area 

            2    being destroyed and, of course, a little over a year ago 

            3    the Santee fire in San Diego that destroyed thousands of 

            4    acres.  

            5             One thing that has been brought in up in local 

            6    papers in both San Diego and in the High Desert area after 

            7    recent studies, it showed that the likelihood that these 

            8    fires started from overhead wires, from the electric power 

            9    transmission by these overhead lines.  

           10              Why couldn't we look at, or maybe this is not 

           11    appropriate for our body to consider asking, by why 

           12    couldn't we look at what the Europeans are doing, the 

           13    underground DC current lines because the DC current lines 

           14    won't start fires.  

           15              So that's something that has been brought up at 

           16    the Chamber of Commerce in Joshua Tree as well as local 

           17    papers in the High Desert area.  

           18              And that's really all I wanted to pass on at this 

           19    point.  

           20              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Geary?  

           21              MEMBER HUND:  Geary Hund

           22              I want to speak of a couple things.  First, 

           23    regarding the proposed solar energy developments in the 

           24    Desert.  I think I can speak for the environmental 

           25    community saying that environmental community certainly 

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            1    supports some development of renewable energy because of 

            2    the beneficial effects it has on encountering global 

            3    climate change, global warming.  

            4             But there is a general concern for the Mojave and 

            5    Colorado Deserts that I think many of us share and 

            6    represent different interests on this Council about moving 

            7    ahead too fast and too quickly like what happened in the 

            8    early days of wind energy development and possibly the 

            9    short-term and/or long-term expense of other valuable 

           10    important resources in the desert.  

           11             So, personally, I think that it would be best if 

           12    these projects were put on hold until such time that 

           13    Programmatic EIS could be completed so that each of these 

           14    projects could be looked at in the context of all the 

           15    others and also in the context of the new transmission 

           16    lines that have to be developed for some of the projects.  

           17              But, regardless, I think it's very important that 

           18    for each of these proposals, that they are looked at in the 

           19    context of the other proposals and that as management 

           20    practices are developed for their siting, their 

           21    developments and their maintenance is that a hard look is 

           22    taken of what type of impacts these proposed projects will 

           23    have on natural, cultural, recreational resources when they 

           24    are in the process of going through the approval process.  

           25             So, secondly, I just want to speak a little to the 

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            1    Surprise Canyon issue as well, since Ron brought it up.  

            2    And I certainly understand, I believe, his point of view on 

            3    it and I respect it.  

            4             I did want to elaborate a little on the history of 

            5    the closure and the -- in March of 2000, the Center for 

            6    Biological Diversity and the Sierra Club and others filed 

            7    suit in Federal District Court against the BLM for alleged 

            8    violation of Section 7 of Endangered Species Act, which was 

            9    for failure to consult with the service regarding the 

           10    potential effects of the 1980 CDCA Plan.  

           11             And I think that was a valid concern because, 

           12    certainly, any land use management plan potentially could 

           13    have impacts on endangered species.  

           14             And the stipulation that the -- the settlement 

           15    agreement for Surprise Canyon was that EIS would be 

           16    completed for Surprise Canyon to evaluate a range of 

           17    options for access to the canyon.  So it wasn't necessarily 

           18    a temporary closure that would result in the end and the 

           19    resumption of off-road use in the canyon.  

           20             When I worked for the Wilderness Society, we were 

           21    one of 11 environmental groups, regional, state and 

           22    national groups that were opposed to the resumption of 

           23    vehicle use in the canyon.  And the reasons for that are 

           24    the fact that, first, it's a perennial stream in an 

           25    otherwise very iridescent and riparian area.  

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            1             And those of you that are familiar with Surprise 

            2    Canyon, it's a very narrow canyon.  And the so the riparian 

            3    area is that big broad area where you have to have 

            4    alternatives for access.  If you were to consider vehicle 

            5    access be.  The vehicles literally have to drive up 

            6    portions of the stream in order to access the canyon.  

            7             Also, it would be extreme off-road vehicle use 

            8    involving winching vehicles literally up waterfalls.  So 

            9    the issue with that is there are a number of endemic 

           10    species found in that canyon as well as endangered species.  

           11    And a number of those endemic species are only found in the 

           12    riparian areas.  So any damage to the very limited riparian 

           13    areas is very significant.  

           14              And, also, those species that don't entirely 

           15    depend on the riparians, most of the desert species, even 

           16    though they normally live in the more barren portions of 

           17    the desert, utilize the riparian areas during some part of 

           18    their life cycle.  

           19             So the real conundrum here is that even though 

           20    it's for some, it was an exciting recreational experience 

           21    to take a vehicle up there, the benefit may not be worth 

           22    the cost.  And in our view, the benefit is not worth the 

           23    cost.  

           24             And I might also point out that there are two 

           25    presidential executive orders that the BLM must comply with 

                      Gillespie Reporting and Document Management, Inc.    53



                                                                             

            1    in considering off-road vehicle use.  And those are very 

            2    clear about not allowing off-road vehicle use to have 

            3    unacceptable Impacts.  

            4             Also, it's an area of critical environmental 

            5    concern surrounded by wilderness.  And the very objectives 

            6    of the 1982 ACEC Management Plan states that there is 

            7    management goals including protecting springs and 

            8    preventing further degradation of stream environment and 

            9    riparian vegetation.  

           10             And the plan objectives of the ACEC are the 

           11    protection and enhancement of significant resources on the 

           12    public land.  And so it's very important just to be in 

           13    compliance with the ACEC Management Plan to not have uses 

           14    that would cause that kind of damage.  

           15             I also wanted to -- I want to conclude by saying 

           16    that the BLM's own conclusions, their own findings in field 

           17    studies in monitoring that were conducted in Surprise 

           18    Canyon in conjunction with a representative of California 

           19    Department of Fish and Game and the Lahontan Regional Water 

           20    Quality Control Board determined that motorized vehicle use 

           21    in the canyon was causing adverse impacts to a variety of 

           22    land resources including general wildlife habitat, aquatic 

           23    habitat, water quality and wilderness values.  

           24             So I just wanted to give the Council and the 

           25    audience, you know, a perspective on that from the 

                      Gillespie Reporting and Document Management, Inc.    54



                                                                             

            1    interests that I represent.  I certainly, again, respect 

            2    the position of Ron and other folks of that aggregate sport 

            3    resuming vehicle use there.  

            4             I would really highly recommend that any of you 

            5    that have not been to Surprise Canyon, make a visit there 

            6    and see just what kind of resource it is and how fragile it 

            7    is and how important it is.  

            8             Thank you.  

            9             MEMBER SCHILLER:  I thought you were trying to 

           10    keep people out of Surprise Canyon.  

           11             MEMBER HUND:  I think -- the way I look it is that 

           12    we have to look at any use regardless of what it is and 

           13    evaluate the impacts.  And there might be periods of time 

           14    or places where, you know, even hiking could have an 

           15    unacceptable impact.  Hiking, obviously, has less impact 

           16    than driving a vehicle upstream.  

           17             MEMBER SCHILLER:  Where is it?  I would like to 

           18    go.           

           19             MEMBER HUND:  It's in the Panamint Mountains on 

           20    the west side of Death Valley National Park.  It's just a 

           21    ways up of Ridgecrest.  

           22             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Ron has got a question.  

           23             MEMBER SCHILLER:  Ron Schiller.  I have, actually, 

           24    a couple questions.  

           25             Having intervened into that lawsuit and been 

                      Gillespie Reporting and Document Management, Inc.    55



                                                                             

            1    present during the -- in the courtroom during the 

            2    proceedings and as well as the negotiations, I am just 

            3    curious, first, what endangered species is identified 

            4    there.  We certainly couldn't find any when we were in the 

            5    courtroom who suggested the Annual Brown Towhee.  I happen 

            6    to have had the recovery plan for that, which is now called 

            7    the California Towhee.  

            8              And secondly, as far as the water qualities 

            9    concern, I do have a question about that since I have a 

           10    water quality report that was taken before, during and 

           11    after the last Cal four-wheel event there to determine what 

           12    the impact of the vehicles was on that area since most of 

           13    that repairing at that time was bedrock.  If you can answer 

           14    that, I would certainly appreciate it.  

           15              MEMBER HUND:  Are you addressing the questions to 

           16    me?  

           17              MEMBER SCHILLER:  Well, you mentioned endangered 

           18    species, you know, and the only ones that we could discuss 

           19    at that point was the Parish's Phacelia daisy, the annual 

           20    Brown Towhee, which has changed names now, and there was a 

           21    toad, but none of them we could identify as endangered 

           22    under or listed species.  

           23              And I am just curious if you have the listed in 

           24    there now?  

           25              And, secondly, how are you determining the water 

                      Gillespie Reporting and Document Management, Inc.    56



                                                                             

            1    quality of the impact of the vehicles in that area?  

            2              MEMBER HUND:  Well, I will speak to that very 

            3    briefly since I know we need to move on.  The Towhee 

            4    actually is a listed species at not only at the Arogus 

            5    Mountains (as pronounced), but it has been now detected in 

            6    Surprise Canyon in the riparian areas.  And also, it is 

            7    also potentially Least Bell's Vireo and southwestern 

            8    wildlife habitat.  

            9              And then speaking of the water quality, though, 

           10    the study that you are referring to, there have been some 

           11    questions about, you know, the rigor of that study and what 

           12    I am basing the water quality comments on are more 

           13    long-term evaluation of the water quality that has been 

           14    done by the BLM and others that have shown water quality 

           15    impacts.  

           16              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Richard?  

           17              MEMBER HOLIDAY:  Yeah.  I have a couple of issues 

           18    here.  I didn't mention earlier, I am on the TRT for the 

           19    Imperial Sand Dunes recreation area.  And we are a 

           20    supporter of the ESA and we had a listing petition in for 

           21    the Person's Act (as pronounce), which was turned down 

           22    after about five years of study by the Fish and Wildlife 

           23    Service.  

           24              What that means to us is that we now have to put 

           25    more emphasis on the next Recreational Area Management Plan 

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            1    that is going to be produced for that area in order to try 

            2    to get some of these areas reopened and that administrative 

            3    closure.  

            4              So I just want to make sure that we -- make sure 

            5    that we get to keep that recreation plan moving along.  

            6    It's a long process.  We realize it's going to take two to 

            7    three years, probably or in the 2010 to get results, but we 

            8    want to keep that process moving.  

            9              Also, at the last DAC meeting, Vicki Wood from  

           10    El Centro gave a report on some special rules that were 

           11    going to go in effect as far as the burning of pallets.  We 

           12    have been concerned about the inconsistency of rules across 

           13    the California Desert District where, for instance, at 

           14    Dumont in Barstow where there is a rule against burning of 

           15    pallets.  We don't have that same rule in the Imperial Sand 

           16    Dunes recreation area and we would like to see that rule.  

           17              And I know that that was proposed back at that 

           18    last DAC meeting and we haven't seen those rules completed 

           19    yet.  And I would just like to see that they get done as 

           20    quickly as possible.  It has to be a -- I believe there has 

           21    to be a Federal Register Declaration.  

           22              I am under the understanding from another member 

           23    here, somebody had told me that that can't be done across 

           24    the whole Desert District without some kind of public 

           25    comment period.  If that's the case, then maybe we could 

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            1    just make that a new rule for the Imperial Sand Dunes to 

            2    match the rule for Dumont.  That's all for me

            3             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Meg?  

            4             MEMBER GROSSLASS:  Meg Grossglass.  Actually, I am 

            5    going to give you a break today and not have any comments.

            6             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Thank you so much.  

            7             MEMBER GROSSLASS:  You are welcome.

            8             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Randy?  

            9             MR. BANIS:  Randy Banis.  Sorry.  I won't be quite 

           10    so generous, but I will be brief.  First, I have a request 

           11    for an agenda item.  For the future, I understand that the 

           12    California Desert District is reevaluating its maps for the 

           13    public, the former Desert Access Guide series of maps are 

           14    currently being worked on and produced.  I believe there 

           15    are -- at least I have issues that related to that that I 

           16    would greatly appreciate an opportunity to comment on and 

           17    have input on.  If that can be added at some time or if 

           18    there is another appropriate venue for me to seek 

           19    information and participate in that, I would appreciate 

           20    that.  

           21              I would like to, also, please, touch on Surprise 

           22    Canyon on a slightly different aspect of it, however.  In 

           23    the discussions that we have heard regarding the El Paso 

           24    CAPA and the Surprise Canyon, both not seen progress, so to 

           25    speak, and motion.  In one of those cases, it's actually 

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            1    paralysis.  And I would say that's the Surprise Canyon.   

            2    The El Paso is not in a state of paralysis.  There is still 

            3    things happening there.  

            4              But in Surprise Canyon, the road to Surprise 

            5    Canyon was closed to motorized vehicles.  That's what the 

            6    emergency closure was.  In the time since that closure, 

            7    Surprise Canyon has undergone an extraordinary 

            8    rehabilitation in the lower sections, particularly, the 

            9    riparian zone.  

           10              If you haven't been there since the early field 

           11    trips that the DAC took six years or so ago, you will be 

           12    shocked at the lower stretches of Surprise Canyon.  The 

           13    vegetation and the greenery is, and I am going to say this, 

           14    it's almost choking out foot traffic in the lower 

           15    stretches.  

           16              I am not a Herculean hiker, but my favorite 

           17    activity is to follow a road until its end and then don the 

           18    backpack and go from there.  But at over four hours of 

           19    traveling up Surprise Canyon through multiple crossings, 

           20    crisscrossings, really there is no established route for 

           21    even foot traffic in that lower section.  Four hours it 

           22    only took me to Whipawu Canyon (as pronounced).  

           23              Now, I had some other folks on our committee 

           24    saying, boy, Randy, you really need some exercise.  You 

           25    have got to learn how to get out.  But I will contend that 

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            1    I don't think I am any less than the average person who 

            2    would like to venture up to the beautiful site of Panamint 

            3    City.  We couldn't make it that day.  It was winter.  

            4    Shorter days.  Better weather for hiking.  

            5              But my point is, is that I brought this up -- I 

            6    bring this up, that the canyon is closed pending an 

            7    environmental review for whether or not to allow motorized 

            8    vehicles in that canyon.  

            9              There is no closure to foot traffic and I don't 

           10    believe that there is anything preventing the BLM from 

           11    embarking on some sort of plan or strategy to manage the 

           12    foot traffic in that lower stretches so that folks can know 

           13    where to go.  

           14              It is a deep canyon.  It is high sides and the 

           15    trampling that is going on in lower section, I don't think 

           16    that that was the intent of the closure either.  So I would 

           17    like to urge the BLM to -- if it can't move the 

           18    environmental document process any faster, it could at 

           19    least take some aspects of managing that canyon out of 

           20    paralysis and perhaps consider better accommodating the 

           21    foot traffic up to canyon in the meantime.  The public 

           22    would appreciate it.  

           23             Thank you.

           24             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  April?  

           25             MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Can I make a comment?  

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            1             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Sure.  

            2             MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Follow-up?  

            3             I would like to reiterate Randy's comments or at 

            4    least add to them.  I agree that -- I am a conservationist 

            5    in the legal and traditional sense of the word multiple 

            6    use.  And I think that the BLM should be in the business of 

            7    managing our public land for public use and sometimes 

            8    financial benefit, if that is warranted.  

            9              And I agree, certain areas, Geary made Surprise 

           10    Canyon -- I haven't been there in about ten years -- sound 

           11    pretty wonderful.  But if the physical conditions of the 

           12    canyon make it impossible to get to the top for anybody, 

           13    well, then maybe we better look at our strategy.  

           14              If it is going to be a wilderness area and you 

           15    are going to manage people out of it or it's a managed area 

           16    where people can actually benefit it by whatever means.  

           17    And that could be scenic beauty, hiking, hunting or mineral 

           18    resources, solar resources, whatever, that may end up to 

           19    be.  

           20             So thank you for your comments.

           21             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  April?  

           22             MEMBER SALL:  Yes.  I would like to make a few 

           23    comments and first note that I support Geary's comments 

           24    regarding some of the conservation community concerns to 

           25    the Programmatic EIS for solar that is occurring as far as 

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            1    the concern that a lot of projects are being submitted in a 

            2    feeding frenzy that is occurring in Mojave Desert Renewable 

            3    Energy.  

            4              Although, maybe groups are supportive of the 

            5    renewable energy, there is a lot of concern about how BLM 

            6    was overtaxed in terms of staffing and funding, of course, 

            7    to deal with the applications that are being submitted and 

            8    the lift on the moratorium from Congress.  

            9             The State is going through a process with the term 

           10    "RETI, The Renewable Energy Transmission Initiative."  And 

           11    they are currently going through the process of trying to 

           12    designate California's Renewable Energy Zone called CREZ.  

           13    And the citing criteria involves many layers including an 

           14    environmental layer.  And, you know, we will know more of 

           15    CREZ Program when the EIS comes out.  

           16             But I would hope that BLM consider the cumulative 

           17    impacts of not only of all the other projects and the wind 

           18    projects that are going on in a separate process and the 

           19    EIS has already been approved, but that existing 

           20    transmission and other issues with renewable energy 

           21    development projects be weighed in that light.  

           22              Also, a topic for discussion tomorrow, there has 

           23    been a lot of concern in the area near Twentynine Palms in 

           24    the communities towards Joshua Valley, Twentynine Palms 

           25    Marine Base Expansion and particularly the effects that 

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            1    could have on Joshua Valley area.  

            2             And many groups are, of course, concerned about 

            3    the loss of acreage for that area as well as what that 

            4    would have in terms of impacts for surrounding communities 

            5    and trespass problems because of having limited areas to 

            6    ride.  So that is a concern that has been expressed 

            7    throughout the communities.  

            8             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Tom, prior to your arrival, 

            9    because we have some new faces, we introduced everybody and 

           10    told them about ourselves, so if you could give a real 

           11    brief introduction of yourself and background and then any 

           12    comments.  

           13              And I think, Tom, you have not had an opportunity 

           14    to speak.  We are getting close to needing a break.  I am 

           15    especially concerned about our court reporter.  If we can 

           16    get done with that.  

           17              MEMBER ACUNA:  Well, welcome new members.  I am 

           18    Tom Acuna.  And I work today at SDG&E facility.  I was 

           19    appointed to this board to represent the transportation and 

           20    rights of way.  And I am really enjoying this experience.  

           21    And I think you will really enjoy the experience, too.  

           22    It's a great forum for all of us to talk about our 

           23    differences, help BLM.  So I think I am getting close to 

           24    near the end of my term, also, probably at the end of this 

           25    year, but you will enjoy it.  

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            1              My thoughts on where we have come as a group, we 

            2    hear a lot about what BLM should be doing.  AndI just want 

            3    to say something positive of them.  They are faced with an 

            4    enormous task.  Energy is our country's number one issue 

            5    right now, probably more important than some of the other 

            6    items.  

            7              And when I started with this group, less than two 

            8    years ago, there was just a handful of renewable 

            9    applications.  And what we have seen as a group as this has 

           10    grown up to be close to 110 applications for half a million 

           11    acres of land.  And I think as a steward of the land here, 

           12    that's the BLM, I think they have done a remarkable job in 

           13    responding to that with almost no resources added to the 

           14    staff.  

           15              And I think that the PEIS is a logical step in 

           16    the right direction trying to do it in the right manner and 

           17    evaluate that and get everyone's input as to what's the 

           18    right way to do renewables.  

           19              I think they have, from the utility prospective, 

           20    they have helped clarify processes for people.  And I think 

           21    the MOU with the California Energy Commission, how they 

           22    work together to look at projects and develop environmental 

           23    documents is really important.  

           24              I think what they have done with Fish and 

           25    Wildlife, a similar agreement that defines those features.  

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            1    I think with the Riverside County Board, another great 

            2    opportunity to communicate.  

            3              I think the plans they have developed where, when 

            4    it should occur, solar, the best locations, they have 

            5    provided for the Board here, to Council, an opportunity to 

            6    see where those locations are.  And we now know there is 

            7    some transmission issues.  

            8              So I think as a group, we have an opportunity to 

            9    help all of the country's energy policies and help that 

           10    along.  I wouldn't go as far as to say that we are going to 

           11    come up with the perfect solution in every case, but I 

           12    think the public is going to have an opportunity to address 

           13    each of those projects.  

           14              So, anyway, Kudos for the BLM and their staff and 

           15    things that they are doing.  I look forward to working with 

           16    you and hearing your perspectives.  

           17              Thank you. 

           18              CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Just real quick, Tom.  

           19              MEMBER ACUNA:  I only came to say I must be 

           20    going.  I assumed I had two more meetings based on when I 

           21    got my letter and not when I was appointed, so I am no 

           22    longer on the DAC.  So it's an honor to have served with 

           23    all you guys.  I want all you guys to address your wildlife 

           24    questions to April.  

           25              And deference to Ed and Joan and all my friends 

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            1    in the audience who faithfully come here often that don't 

            2    sit on the DAC.  I am going to go sit in the audience.  

            3                           (Applause.) 

            4             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Next on the agenda is public 

            5    comments for nonagenda items.  Are there folks here in the 

            6    audience who want to speak?  

            7              Do you mind if we take a break right now and come 

            8    back to you after the break because we are just running 

            9    over time and I think several of us need a break.  

           10              So we will reconvene at 3:10.

           11                          (Recess taken.)

           12             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Call the meeting back to order.  

           13             We now have public comments on nonagenda items.  I 

           14    have two cards for public comment nonagenda items.  

           15             Mr. Ed Waldheim.

           16             MR. WALDHEIM:  Waldheim.  

           17             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Waldheim.  

           18             MR. WALDHEIM:  Staff members, my name Edward 

           19    Waldheim, representing California Trail Users Coalition, 

           20    Friends of Jawbone, Friends of El Mirage.  I would like to 

           21    digress just a minute, though, two issues that was 

           22    presented on Surprise Canyon.  

           23              Geary, you failed to mention that that was an 

           24    area that all my friends used to go up in station wagons to 

           25    camp up the hill.  It was not what you explained as it was 

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            1    before.  Mr. Banis was 100 percent correct, you hardly can 

            2    get through it now because it's totally, totally overgrown.  

            3              So to say that this is repairing what we found 

            4    here and so forth, I really get upset about that because it 

            5    was a road for many, many years.  Why did it not become a 

            6    road anymore, just because the County didn't have the money 

            7    to maintain the road?  If they had had the money, it would 

            8    have been done.  

            9              It was a cherished stem in the wilderness area, 

           10    Congressional record for a cherry stem.  And I get very 

           11    upset that we put things in the record for Congress and 

           12    because of neglect, we lose the opportunity.  So it makes a 

           13    sham of cherry stems with the Congressional record and 

           14    that's not the way for us to work, so I want to make sure 

           15    the record is clear on that.  

           16              The second thing, Mr. Chairman, I would like to 

           17    ask you, you stated that only the items that we will have 

           18    an opportunity to talk are those that are highlighted in 

           19    bold.  I would like to suggest that we add the bold to the 

           20    field managers' reports, put them in bold, also, because 

           21    this is the opportunity where people with comment or to ask 

           22    questions or bring something up for the field managers, 

           23    which, normally, they do not have the opportunity or 

           24    privilege of working with the field managers like myself 

           25    and some people do, but there is others of the public who 

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            1    may want to take the opportunity to talk with the field 

            2    manager or bring something up.  They have not been able to 

            3    bring up.  If you could make that change, I would 

            4    appreciate it.  

            5              I put the maps of Friends of El Mirage -- Friends 

            6    of Jawbone and California Trail Users Coalition.  I put 

            7    those out there for you to show you what we are working on 

            8    as far as getting grants.  We are very successful in 

            9    getting from three nonprofit groups of the RTP plan, 

           10    Recreational Trails Program.  It's a Federal government 

           11    program that helps and assists to managing of public lands 

           12    for motorized recreation.  I share with you what we doing 

           13    there.  

           14              Our next round, we are going to work on possibly 

           15    making a map for the Indio forest.  And Bishop BLM office 

           16    is working on that.  We will probably have another map 

           17    going east of -- I mean west of Santa Barbara adding a map 

           18    there.  And Sterling now passed probably doing two maps in 

           19    the Needles Field Office.  Roxie hasn't asked me for 

           20    anything significant, so I am pretty safe there right now, 

           21    on the maps at least.  Those are things we are working on 

           22    there.         The other issue that I would like to bring 

           23    up that I am really upset at, is if you read your Minutes 

           24    in Needles, we left undone the issue of Conklin Road.  The 

           25    DAC said, well, we don't know if it is BLM land or public 

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            1    land.  It is BLM land.  It was closed per BLM notice.  It 

            2    is BLM land.  A road that has been used for 40 years was 

            3    closed under BLM's nose.  

            4              I just want to set the record straight because 

            5    now we have information, we will go forward.  There was a 

            6    question mark, was it private or was it BLM.  And the DAC 

            7    Board wanted to know about it.  So if you see in your 

            8    Minutes, we see that this is the issue, this is BLM land.  

            9    We need to get that opened up again.  

           10              Last issue I have is the issue of noise.  Chris 

           11    Reel got some good -- he's an expert in noise issues in the 

           12    Dirt Rider magazine and the American Motorcycle Issues 

           13    magazine, he got a write-up about the noise issue.  

           14              We have ordinances taking place on noise issues.  

           15    Why?  Because the laws that we have in the books are now 

           16    being enforced.  We have to change that.  The Bureau has to 

           17    make it a priority.  If you have a loud bike, ticket it, 

           18    take the bike away from them, do not under any 

           19    circumstances let them on the public lands.  That's where 

           20    it starts.  

           21              If you don't do that, the cities and the counties 

           22    are going to start meddling in the noise program when they 

           23    don't have to because the law is already in place.  We have 

           24    an existing law.  It's the enforcements that's having 

           25    problems with.  And that's the cities and counties.  Both 

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            1    the Kern County Sheriffs and Los Angeles County Sheriffs, 

            2    they have to take the noise seriously because it comes back 

            3    to bite us in ordinances we don't really need.  

            4              And so if you read the articles, and if you want, 

            5    I can share it with Chris at an answer and question period 

            6    and he can make a copy and send it to you.  It tells you 

            7    clearly noise is our biggest issue as far as motorized 

            8    recreation.  And we do need your help to see that the 

            9    agencies enforce.  

           10             Thank you.

           11             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Thank you, Mr. Waldheim.  

           12             The next card I have her is John Stewart.  

           13    Identify yourself.

           14             MR. STEWART:  Good afternoon, Council Members.  

           15    John Stewart, a Natural Resource Consultant for California 

           16    Association of Four-Wheel Drive Clubs.  

           17             Just a brief comment here on the issue about 

           18    comments.  I would like to draw your attention to the 

           19    Desert Advisory Council Charter of which Item No. 6, Duties 

           20    of Council, one of the points is to hear public testimony.  

           21    Comments is of one of the ways the public has a way to give 

           22    testimony.  

           23             I would also like to extend a thank you to   

           24    Carrie Simons, the archeologist at the El Centro Field 

           25    Office.  I had reports from two clubs that have been 

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            1    dealing with her and they have learned a lot.  They have 

            2    been very thankful for her professional approach to getting 

            3    the permit through for Superstition Mountains and some 

            4    other work that yet-to-be-resolved issue at Devils Canyon.  

            5    But they have really enjoyed working with her very much.  

            6    They found out she was very professional, very helpful.  

            7              Also, something I am surprised that is not an 

            8    agenda item and I am glad to see it sitting up there, is 

            9    this little booklet called Recreation and Visitor Services 

           10    Strategy.  This is something that should be an agenda item 

           11    in the future and that this is a plan, this is a direction 

           12    of something that does show that there is an effort working 

           13    towards recreation opportunities within the -- not only the 

           14    Desert District like this but throughout the State of 

           15    California.  So thank you to BLM for turning this out and 

           16    should be a good benefit. Thank you.  

           17             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Thank you.  Any other public 

           18    comments or nonagenda items?  

           19             Mr. McArthur, could you please identify yourself 

           20    for the record.

           21             MR. MCARTHUR:  I am Carl McArthur, University of 

           22    California Cooperative Extensions.  And these are some 

           23    pamphlets on some wildfire education programming that we 

           24    are going to be doing in a place near you pretty soon.  I 

           25    just wanted that to be included with this.  The ones that 

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            1    actually show the live burner, we are doing a live burn at 

            2    both locations.  We are looking at building materials and 

            3    new regulations in the wild and urban interface area.  

            4             So if you have any questions, there is phone 

            5    numbers.  And that's about it.  

            6             MEMBER MABEN:  You have an address, but you don't 

            7    say what town, for those of us who don't live there.

            8             MEMBER SHUMWAY:  This is Apple Valley, isn't it?

            9             MR. MCARTHUR:  One is Apple Valley and the other 

           10    one is going to be up in Yucca Valley.  

           11             MEMBER MABEN:  Is there two of them?  I just have 

           12    one for -- 

           13             MR. MCARTHUR:  I kind of had to run these things 

           14    through.  This would be more of a standard one with the 

           15    burn picture.  But the Apple Valley, they came up with more 

           16    of the landscaping and the fire scaping poster in the 

           17    middle.  And they kind of did their own thing.  They 

           18    weren't really too much on the green stuff, on the wild 

           19    land part of this when I talked to them, so it is kind of 

           20    interesting they picked up the blurb at the end that I had.  

           21              Whereas, really, the thing we do with this is 

           22    people really care about their own house and property.  So 

           23    I bring the building materials expert down and he talks 

           24    about building materials for fire safety and especially in 

           25    the high fire hazard zones.  And people get to see this and 

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            1    kind of identify with their own property and their own 

            2    house.  

            3              And that's kind of the bacon I wrap around the 

            4    fill for other things like the danger of your house and the 

            5    landscape might have, your personal landscape might have to 

            6    the larger landscape.  So they are all going to include a 

            7    little bit of this wild land focus as well as the household 

            8    and the property owner prospective.  

            9              Anyway, one is going to be in Apple Valley, two 

           10    days in a row.  They are hoping -- if anybody wants to 

           11    come, we will have refreshments.  I am thinking, I have 

           12    never worked with the city before on one of these things, 

           13    but the Apple Valley Fire Protection District, which 

           14    actually goes way beyond the city limits and is in a local 

           15    responsibility area that has areas that are also high 

           16    hazard, classified as high hazard.  

           17              Anyway, it's kind of an interesting mix of people 

           18    I am working with.  It's probably going to be more like a 

           19    fire fair at the Apple Valley events.  The other one will 

           20    be more sedate and educational.  We are expect the 50-plus 

           21    people in Yucca Valley.  

           22              I am trying to get April to do a little thing 

           23    there.  She doesn't know it yet.  A little cameo.

           24              Yes.

           25              MR. RUDNICK:  Are prescribed burns going to be 

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            1    part of this presentation or is that part of the program at 

            2    all?  

            3             MR. MCARTHUR:  I am not really sure.  In the Apple 

            4    Valley event, Chief -- his name is gone right now, but he 

            5    is going to be contacting the BLM.  That's why I say, he's 

            6    kind of -- these things, we have done a lot of them and I 

            7    have hosted them on the forest side of the hills, the 

            8    Desert Natural Resources they have provided for UC.  They 

            9    all have been fairly small and he's talking about a fire -- 

           10    wrapping a fire fair and he's expecting maybe 500 people, 

           11    so...  

           12             What was your question again?  

           13             MS. GROSSGLASS:  You mean Art Fischer?  

           14             MR. MCARTHUR:  Art, yes.  

           15             So if he brings in the BLM fire protection 

           16    people -- and I am still asking them what do you want -- 

           17    they will probably discuss it.  They have got one person, 

           18    and they can't come up with his name, that they are going 

           19    call in on the burn area recovery team and they are going 

           20    to have a talk and he will probably address wild land 

           21    issues as well, the interface issues, you know, between 

           22    wildfires and the built environment.  

           23              And then, by the way, your comment on fire plans, 

           24    when Art showed me his fire plans and how he can just hand 

           25    these booklets over to the crews, never even been in the 

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            1    area, based on these different quadrants, I was quite 

            2    impressed.  But I don't think that is something that the 

            3    public would like.  

            4              However, maybe the DAC would like to invite some 

            5    of these fire captains and fire people in maybe one at a 

            6    time to explain how they do this.  And maybe you can 

            7    interact and, say, well, this is what we would like to 

            8    have, too.  Because I know as a rancher, it is a lot 

            9    different than a typical three-acre homeowner.  When they 

           10    tell us get out, we don't because if we did, we would lose 

           11    everything.  

           12              Anyway, so take a look at these.  We will be 

           13    putting this on-line and sending out mailers and different 

           14    other avenues.  And I just thought that DAC should get this 

           15    first.  

           16             Thank you.

           17             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Thank you.  Any other speakers 

           18    nonagenda items at this time?  We will close the public 

           19    comment period.  

           20             MEMBER ACUNA:  Tom, I just had a real quick 

           21    question.  This is just a general a question to Ed Waldheim 

           22    about noise enforcement.  

           23             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Yes. 

           24             MEMBER ACUNA:  I know a lot of other government 

           25    agencies have noise meters and they are able to on-the-spot 

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            1    check a vehicle for noise.  And if it's inappropriate, they 

            2    issue a ticket.  

            3             Does the BLM have that equipment?  What is the 

            4    policy for the BLM when a ranger runs into something like 

            5    that or is that something that they don't really get  

            6    addressed too much?  

            7             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Well, if we talked law 

            8    enforcement issues, it's not a conversation that I have 

            9    listened to.  I don't know if we decimal meters or -- we do 

           10    have.  Okay.  Maybe you and John can talk about it.  That's 

           11    a piece of equipment we actually have for each of our law 

           12    enforcement offices.  

           13             Do we have Federal Code or do we have to rely on 

           14    State Code to enforce -- do we have Federal Noise Statutes?  

           15             MR. WHITE:  Sterling White, Needle Field Office 

           16    Manager.  Our rangers carry the decimal meter when they are 

           17    working with the Colorado River District.  They are in  

           18    Lake Havasu and the decimals are for boats along the river 

           19    working with the Wildlife Refuge.  But out on the desert, 

           20    it would be something that we would enforce under State 

           21    Statute.  It's typically not a common practice for us other 

           22    than with boats on the river.

           23             MEMBER ACUNA:  Thank you.  

           24             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Next we have Field Manager 

           25    Summary Reports.  And because of the interest of time, 

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            1    practice in the past and if you have your Field Manager 

            2    Reports, we would normally ask specific questions if we 

            3    have them on the reports themselves.  And the field 

            4    managers also have the opportunity to add to their reports 

            5    verbally.

            6             What is the Council's desire with regards to 

            7    public comment aspect what was requested earlier?  

            8             MEMBER RUDNICK:  Keep it short.

            9             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Public comment section under 

           10    Field Manager Reports.  

           11             MEMBER RUDNICK:  What was the question?  

           12             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  The question came up during 

           13    public comments that we agreed to have public comments 

           14    after each bolded subject item on the agenda.  If the Field 

           15    Manager Reports are not subject to -- 

           16             MEMBER SCHILLER:  I would think as a group after 

           17    all of them.  Most of the time, you don't get to talk with 

           18    all of the BLM members at once.  That would be unique.  If 

           19    you had questions for a field manager, I would think that 

           20    would be a good time to do it, after all of them are 

           21    presented.  

           22             MEMBER HUND:  I would support it as well as doing 

           23    it after all of them are presented as long as, again, the 

           24    person is recognized by the Chair, turns in a speaker slip 

           25    and we limit them to three minutes so we can keep the 

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            1    meeting moving along.  I think we should try that out.  I 

            2    do agree, it's an opportunity for the public to speak to 

            3    the range of issues presented by the field managers in 

            4    their reports.  

            5             MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Can I comment?  

            6             I agree.  And it also would be informational to 

            7    the members of the Commission as well in a timely manner.  

            8    I mean, most of us are only familiar with our local BLM 

            9    district, and so this would give us a chance to find out 

           10    what the other issues are, should people choose to show up 

           11    and comment on during the field manager's comments.  

           12             MEMBER SCHILLER:  Sometimes we forget this is an 

           13    element of the public participation, too.  I feel the 

           14    public is a very important component even though a lot of 

           15    them don't always show up.  The opportunity should be 

           16    there.  

           17             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  So it sounds like I have a 

           18    consensus that what we will do is first entertain Council 

           19    Member comments or questions of Field Managers' Reports.  

           20    Second, we will offer to the field managers if there are 

           21    any additional comments on the reports.  And then we will 

           22    close that up and open it up to public comments with the 

           23    three-minute limitation.  Okay.  

           24             Any questions or comments regarding the Field 

           25    Manager Summary Reports.

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            1             Ron?  

            2             MEMBER SCHILLER:  I have just a couple, regarding 

            3    the Ridgecrest Field Office.  I am not trying to pick on 

            4    Hector here.  I was just curious of -- I noticed there is 

            5    five endurance horseback rides permitted.  

            6             Can you tell me in what those areas those rides 

            7    are taking place right now?  I am just curious.

            8             MR. VILLALOBOS:  Hector Villalobos, Field Manager 

            9    for the Ridgecrest field office

           10             The rides that I am aware of usually happen every 

           11    year almost on an annual basis.  Some of them are El Paso, 

           12    some around the trails and loops around El Paso.  Some of 

           13    the long horse rides goes through the Rand Mountains and on 

           14    to -- going on towards Death Valley and -- not Death 

           15    Valley.  I am sorry, Sterling Valley.  Yeah, Sterling 

           16    Valley Minerals -- no.  I want to throw minerals in there 

           17    for some reason.  But that's generally where they run,    

           18    El Paso, the Rand Mountains, Sterling Valley.  

           19             MEMBER SCHILLER:  Those are competitive events, so 

           20    they would not be allowed in a -- 

           21             MR. VILLALOBOS:  No.  They are not competitive 

           22    events.  They are -- 

           23             MEMBER SCHILLER:  Oh, they are -- 

           24             MR. VILLALOBOS:  I don't think they are 

           25    competitive.  They compete against themselves, more or 

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            1    less, you know, going cross-country in long distances.  

            2             MEMBER SCHILLER:  They even have 25, 50, 100 miles 

            3    included with each event.  They are competitive.  In fact, 

            4    they require some vehicle support because the -- they have 

            5    to have vet checks, so on and so forth.  But I wasn't 

            6    exactly sure, since Jackie has left Ridgecrest, I am not 

            7    sure where the -- 

            8             MR. VILLALOBOS:  I think some other folks have 

            9    come in and filled in for her because I know they come in 

           10    to our office and get authorizations to do those.  

           11             And again, yes, you are right, they do have 

           12    vehicle support for foods and vets to check the condition 

           13    of the animals.  

           14             MEMBER SCHILLER:  Just one last question, I notice 

           15    there is a special camping permit.  I am curious -- 

           16             MR. VILLALOBOS:  Those are back country 

           17    backpackers that go out for wilderness experience for an 

           18    extended period of time.  Thank you.

           19             MEMBER SCHILLER:  That's all I was curious about.  

           20    Thank you.

           21             MR. VILLALOBOS:  Any other questions?  

           22             MEMBER RUDNICK:  Since you are up there, Hector.  

           23    You mentioned earlier that renewable resources were a high 

           24    priority with your office.

           25             MR. VILLALOBOS:  Yes.

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            1             MEMBER RUDNICK:  Can you explain a little bit the 

            2    part of renewable resources?  

            3             MR. VILLALOBOS:  Renewable resources such as 

            4    grazing?  

            5             MEMBER RUDNICK:  Whatever you meant, Hector.  

            6             MR. VILLALOBOS:  renewable resources such as 

            7    grazing would mean the largest grazing program in the 

            8    desert and it is almost equal to some of the other grazing 

            9    programs outside of the desert.  We have something like 24 

           10    grazing permits that extend from the Eastern Sierras all 

           11    the way to Fish Lake Valley and south of the White 

           12    Mountains, for example.  We have both camel and sheep 

           13    grazing that occur in our area.  So that's kind of what 

           14    renewable resource use is.  

           15            MEMBER RUDNICK:  Well, I understand that part.  But 

           16    you said it was high priority.  

           17            MR. VILLALOBOS:  The high priority renewable 

           18    resource is more or less renewable energy resources that we 

           19    are trying to work on.  

           20            We have geothermal, for example, at Coso that is an 

           21    operation that has been running since the '70s.  We are 

           22    trying to extend the life of the geothermal field out 

           23    there.  For example, by providing some -- or we are 

           24    evaluating the needs to import water into the reservoir.  

           25    So we are looking at that opportunity.  

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            1            The other one is that we do have wind energy that 

            2    has been going on at the Tehachapi area for a long time, 

            3    turbines that stem from Tehachapi area along Barren Ridge 

            4    just south of Jawbone Canyon.  And now there are proposals 

            5    north of Jawbone Canyon all the way to Tehachapi area for 

            6    wind.  So we have some proposals that we are looking at for 

            7    future development.  

            8            There is also a lot of in-fill, I would call it, 

            9    proposals in the existing wind farms right now in the 

           10    checkerboarded land patterns south of Tehachapi, for 

           11    example.  And so there is there a companies that are 

           12    looking in some of that checkerboard land to fill in along 

           13    with the private property to put in wind turbines in those 

           14    area

           15            MEMBER RUDNICK:  So renewable energy highest 

           16    priority?  

           17            MR. VILLALOBOS:  Yes.  Definitely.  

           18            MEMBER RUDNICK:  Thank you.  

           19            MR. VILLALOBOS:  Any other questions?  

           20            Since I am up here, I might just share with you 

           21    Surprise Canyon keeps coming up, so it's always a surprise 

           22    to me.  We have a project being planned for August, I 

           23    believe it's August the 22nd and 23rd.  We are going to be 

           24    doing some weed work in Surprise Canyon.  Anybody that 

           25    wants to come out and join us, we are going to being to 

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            1    looking at -- it's a treatment that we have been doing in 

            2    Surprise Canyon all year.  So the 22nd and 23rd.  

            3            Anyway, that's -- we are going to have that project 

            4    pulling some weeds out there, some soft seeders and explore 

            5    the possibility of an old trail that goes on the north side 

            6    and goes up towards Paul Canyon, so we are going to take a 

            7    look at that and see what that is like.  

            8             Anyway, just for those who might want to join us 

            9    up there pulling weeds.  

           10             MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  At 120?  

           11             MR. VILLALOBOS:  I don't think it will get to 120.  

           12    It might get about 104, 105.  

           13             Thank you.  

           14             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Any other question, comments?  

           15             MEMBER ACUNA:  I think I have one for the        

           16    El Centro office.  I guess we got this news released today 

           17    or the 28th.  It's about the McCain Valley area.  And I 

           18    guess you want to add or make some changes to the proposed 

           19    Resource Management Plan to accommodate more wind energy.  

           20            My question here, Tom, would be what impact would 

           21    that have to the OHV area there because I understand that 

           22    the wind turbines have a large area that they need of 

           23    clearance around in case they lose a blade or something 

           24    like that?  Would that become a no-man's land, how do you 

           25    see that?  

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            1            MR. ZALE:  Tom Zale, Bureau of Land Management 

            2    Associate Field Manager for El Central Field Office.  

            3            Well, if you look at the proposed RMP final EIS and 

            4    look at the differential alternatives that we analyzed, one 

            5    of the alternatives we did look at the compatibility there 

            6    or coexistence, rather, of potential wind energy resources 

            7    and the recreation use.  The press release that you are 

            8    referring to announces the initiation of a 30-day public 

            9    comment period on changes in the proposed RMP that would 

           10    actually change the preferred alternative from not making 

           11    Lark Canyon available in part to wind development to making 

           12    that available.  

           13             If there is a proposed, assuming that the record 

           14    of decision, you know, ends up supporting that idea, any 

           15    potential wind development would be subject to a site 

           16    specific environmental analysis.  So absent a specific 

           17    proposal, exact placements of the proposed turbines would 

           18    be difficult to I guess answer your question in detail at 

           19    this point.  

           20              MEMBER ACUNA:  Thank you.  

           21              MEMBER HOLIDAY:  For the El Centro thing here and 

           22    the other action thing here, there is a little comment here 

           23    about Mesquite landfill and it says that if you are not 

           24    aware of the landfill that the City of L.A. is putting in, 

           25    it's a gold mine out there and the conditional use permit 

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            1    is for them to deliver the trash out there by railroad.  

            2              They have a problem getting the railroad in 

            3    there.  And so they are now trying to change their 

            4    Conditional Use Permit to have for 200 trucks a day go out 

            5    there from L.A. with trash.  

            6              And part of the El Centro thing here is County of 

            7    Imperial and BLM has submitted scoping comments and will 

            8    participate in a secret review of this proposed amendment 

            9    of the Conditional Use Permit.  Can you give me a little 

           10    idea, what's your opinion on that or what do you have in 

           11    here as part of participating in a secret review?  

           12              MR. ZALE:  Tom Zale.  We did submit scoping 

           13    comments.  It's been some time ago and I am not sure that I 

           14    could reiterate comment by comment exactly what they were, 

           15    but I do know we expressed concerns about the potential 

           16    impacts of that additional truck traffic to users of the 

           17    Imperial Sand Dunes.  

           18              I am not exactly sure where the County is in that 

           19    secret process.  I don't believe that a draft of the 

           20    document has been issued, but I can look into that to make 

           21    sure that that is correct.  At least if one is out there, 

           22    it hasn't come to my attention.  I don't believe they 

           23    actually released the draft yet.  

           24             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Randy?  

           25             MEMBER BANIS:  Randy Banis, Public-at-Large.  

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            1             Tom, on the report, the building of the new 

            2    visitor contact station in the South Dunes of the Imperial 

            3    Sand Dunes recreation area, is the fee money for the 

            4    project?  

            5             MR. ZALE:  Actually, no.  I think there is a 

            6    variety of sources used and I probably couldn't account for 

            7    all of them.  I know Congressman Filner got some money I 

            8    think through the ICT program.  There probably is some fee 

            9    dollars in there.  In fact, I am sure there are.

           10             MEMBER HOLIDAY:  We allocated -- the TRT allocated 

           11    $75,000 to help with the paving of the parking lot.  That 

           12    was about the only fee money that was allocated for that.  

           13             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Without the parking lot, it's 

           14    just under two million bucks and that is actually 1,653 

           15    deferred maintenance money allocated dollars by Congress.  

           16             MEMBER BANIS:  And may I also please, you 

           17    mentioned that you are working on reducing and eventually 

           18    eliminating trash service from the recreation area.  

           19             Mr. Waldheim and I are probably the only two 

           20    people on the Dumont Dunes TRT that would like to see trash 

           21    service up there.  But let me just -- those are the TRT 

           22    probably -- the Imperial Sand Dunes TRT might recognize.  

           23             We worked on the issue of trash in the local 

           24    communities of the Dumont Dunes area.  And we have spent a 

           25    tremendous amount of time meeting after meeting putting our 

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            1    heads together, spending out time brainstorming and coming 

            2    up with butkis.  

            3             It further exacerbated the problem when Indio 

            4    County ran into money problems and thought that they might 

            5    look at savings by eliminating trash collection service at 

            6    the collection sites in some of the outlining towns such as 

            7    as Tecopa.  That immediately brought the response of some 

            8    of the surrounding towns that it's the duners that are 

            9    filling up our trash and are causing the expenses for the 

           10    County that they are trying to avoid, so the reason they 

           11    are not going to haul trash is because of duners.      

           12             It is a difficult situation to be put in and talk 

           13    around and through and attempt to resolve.  And I just want 

           14    to give you the heads up on that.  Don't take that one 

           15    lightly.  The community is a great partner to have and, 

           16    boy, they sure want to have a place to put their trash.  

           17             Thank you for letting me share that.  

           18             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Tom.  

           19             MEMBER ACUNA:  Randy, I couldn't agree with you 

           20    more.  If I understand you right, they are going to do away 

           21    with trash in sand dunes, the place for people to dump; is 

           22    that true?  

           23             MR. ZALE:  Well, what we are proposing at this 

           24    point is to have a reduced trash collection service, 

           25    reduced from what we have provided in the past and to 

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            1    collect trash at a limited number of locations for the 

            2    first portion of this next season with the ultimate idea of 

            3    phasing out trash collection completely and promoting 

            4    instead that the people pack it out, take it home where 

            5    they have already paid for their trash pickup service and 

            6    not incur that kind of cost in the dunes.  

            7             MEMBER ACUNA:  It sounds like a good way to save 

            8    money, but it doesn't sound like it is going to help the 

            9    off-road community with the environmental groups when you 

           10    start taking photos of what the dunes look like with all 

           11    the trash floating all over the dunes and to the other side 

           12    of the highway.  

           13             Boy, oh, boy, I wish you could do something about 

           14    that, Tom.  

           15             MR. ZALE:  Well, we are going to work on education 

           16    and outreach.  And as I said, we are phasing this out over 

           17    a period of time, at least that is plan at this point in 

           18    time.  

           19             We don't take lightly your comments.  

           20             MEMBER MABEN:  Don Maben.  On the trash issue, I 

           21    also looked in your report.  You were -- it looks like you 

           22    are issuing a new vendor report for the dunes.

           23             MR. ZALE:  We are issuing a new contract for 

           24    collection.  Is that what you are referring to or -- we 

           25    also issue permits to vendors to provide different kinds of 

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            1    goods like, you now, ice cream and ice.  

            2             MEMBER MABEN:  And why not make that part of your 

            3    vendor contracts to provide trash service an let them haul 

            4    it out?  

            5             MR. ZALE:  That's a proposal that we considered.  

            6    At this point, we do issue a contract for trash removal 

            7    and -- 

            8             MEMBER MABEN:  If the vendors are contributing to 

            9    the problem, why not be part of their vending contracts 

           10    that they provide?  

           11             MR. ZALE:  Oh, that they provide their own trash 

           12    service?  That's a good idea and we will take that into 

           13    consideration.

           14             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Any other comments or questions 

           15    for the field managers?  

           16             MEMBER SALL:  I have got a question for        

           17    Palm Springs.  

           18             John, in regards to the -- April Sall, wildlife.  

           19             In regards to some of the transmission projects 

           20    being proposed and the applications for going through the 

           21    Palm Springs office, Los Angeles Department of Water and 

           22    Power recently stated that their documents submitted to BLM 

           23    Palm Springs office in June superseded the 2006 

           24    application.  

           25             Does the BLM recognize that or accept that as 

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            1    being a document that supersedes the original right-of-way 

            2    application in 2006 because this information is different?  

            3             MR. KALISH:  John Kalish, Field Manager,       

            4    Palm Springs.  

            5             This is in regards to the Los Angeles Department 

            6    of Water and Power's Green Path project, the purpose of 

            7    which is to transmit green energy from Imperial County and 

            8    to the L.A. service area, into their service area.  

            9             The project as proposed would come up out of 

           10    Imperial County through Coachella Valley to the Dever's 

           11    Substation running north of Palm Springs and then head 

           12    north through the Big Morongo Preserve across through  

           13    Yucca Valley and through the Pikes Canyon area and then 

           14    kind of wrap around.  There is some alternative routes that 

           15    are being proposed.  Ultimately, go to Victorville and down 

           16    the Cajon Pass.  

           17              So it is quite an involved project.  We have been 

           18    working with LADWP for a couple years really on their 

           19    project.  They did originally submit an application and 

           20    which identified that proposed route, although it did not 

           21    really specify exactly what was going to be proposed south 

           22    of the Dever's Substation or the section between Imperial 

           23    County and the area right north of Palm Springs or the 

           24    Dever's Substation.  

           25               We have been involved in some detailed 

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            1    discussions with the LADWP about their project.  We have 

            2    initiated the processing of their proposal.  And as such, 

            3    as we go through kind of a pre-application prescoping phase 

            4    of this project with LADWP looking at preliminary issues 

            5    involved, kind of educating them on resource issues and 

            6    values that we are aware of in the area and what to expect 

            7    from an environmental analysis standpoint and bringing in 

            8    other agencies that need to be involved in the process such 

            9    as the U.S. Forest Service, we have through that process 

           10    worked into the potential of identifying additional 

           11    alternatives through the proposed project and some 

           12    agreements between us and LADWP as far as how the overall 

           13    project will be processed.        

           14             The LADWP last weekend did hold their own meeting 

           15    in Yucca Valley on the Green Path project.  That meeting 

           16    was held by them and for them.  We were not involved, 

           17    although we did have staff in the audience at the time.  

           18    But the intent is to go into a scoping process in which we 

           19    are going to draw the notice of intent to prepare the 

           20    EIS/EIR trying to meet with the LADWP on Green Path and 

           21    then have scoping workshops and identify issues and 

           22    potential alternative alignments for this project.  And 

           23    then move into the draft phase of the development of the 

           24    EIS/EIR.  

           25             So from that standpoint, we have considered, since 

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            1    our initial pre-application phase of this project, we have 

            2    considered this as our working with LADWP hugely as a CEQA 

            3    lead agency and the joint development of the document.  And 

            4    through that process, we are just moving forward toward 

            5    implementing the notice of intent that would be published 

            6    in the Federal Register and the initiation of public 

            7    scoping.  

            8              So from that standpoint, we haven't really 

            9    considered that there has been any break in the application 

           10    process or that communication that you are referring to 

           11    negates the original application.  

           12              We are working through this project jointly for 

           13    the proposed transmission line.  

           14              MEMBER SALL:  Thank you.  

           15              MEMBER JOHNSTON:  Ron Johnston.  

           16              Coincidentally, I was in Yucca Valley last week 

           17    when that meeting was held.  

           18              Did you happen to hear any of the results of the 

           19    turnout and the public comment at that meeting or have you 

           20    been sensitive to the public comment out of Yucca Valley, 

           21    Pioneer Town, Pike's Canyon and the Morongo Valley?  

           22               MR. KALISH:  I think we have been very informed 

           23    and also very sensitive to the public issues or the issues 

           24    that have been identified by the public up in the Yucca 

           25    Valley area.  I did not attend that meeting.  We did have 

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            1    our associate field manager and our assistant field manager 

            2    in attendance at the meeting.  I understand that there were 

            3    and I have been told up to a thousand people in attendance.  

            4             MEMBER JOHNSTON:  That's about what I heard as 

            5    well, yes

            6             MR. KALISH:  And I heard various summaries about 

            7    the meeting, but I think everybody really felt like it was 

            8    a great opportunity to listen LADWP's stance and kind of 

            9    clear up some of the issues of survey monuments, center 

           10    line monuments that are placed on lands in Yucca Valley and 

           11    north of Yucca Valley.  

           12             Initially, there was a perception that was a BLM 

           13    requirement, which it wasn't.  And we tried to clear that 

           14    up and we think that that finally was cleared up at the 

           15    meeting.  That was not generated by BLM.  But it certainly 

           16    provided the public an opportunity to speak directly to the 

           17    LADWP about the project.  

           18             I talked to the project manager and he feels that 

           19    they went back to their office with a lot of respect for 

           20    the issues that had been identified  at that meeting and 

           21    the issues and concerns.  

           22             I do think that a lot of the issues that were 

           23    brought up at the meeting on Saturday were very similar to 

           24    the issues that we had been raising as kind of the local 

           25    office and the local agency that has been working with the 

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            1    various resources and the public that are involved -- will 

            2    be involved in this project.  

            3             I think LADWP heard many of the same issues that 

            4    they have been hearing throughout the process with us as 

            5    far as initial issues that they should be concerned with 

            6    and are aware.  

            7             MEMBER JOHNSTON:  One of the things that continues 

            8    to be brought up about that project and the Sunrise 

            9    Powering Project are the fire hazards generated by the 

           10    transmissions.  And why isn't that being more accurately 

           11    addressed, I am curious, when it is an issue that continues 

           12    to be brought up.  500 kilowatt AC lines are fire hazards.  

           13    The forest industry department has announced that as well.  

           14             MR. KALISH:  On other projects, we were the 

           15    project manager Valley Rainbow to look at alternative over 

           16    on the west side of Lake Elsinore and the LEAPS Project 

           17    alternative to that project.  And the potential fire 

           18    hazards was a big issue in looking at various alternatives 

           19    for that project.  So we have been involved in that level 

           20    of analysis in the past.  

           21             In our communication with the Forest Service 

           22    involving this project, I know the one alternative would go 

           23    through San Gorgonian Pass and then follow really the west 

           24    boundary line of the San Bernardino National Forest and cut 

           25    across the valley that way.  

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            1             I know initially in our pre-application issue 

            2    identifications meetings that we have had that that has 

            3    definitely been an issue that was brought up.  

            4             In the process of analyzing this project, we are 

            5    just in the very early stages.  I think, you know, the next 

            6    step, like I said, was our going out with the notice of 

            7    intent and then formally going into a scoping process.  

            8             The meeting on Saturday was, like I said, it was 

            9    put on by LADWP for LADWP and may have been perceived by 

           10    some folks as a scoping meeting, although it is really not 

           11    a formal scoping meeting from the standpoint of development 

           12    of EIS/EIR.  All that will come after the notice is 

           13    published in the Federal Register and we initiate workshops 

           14    and really get into the detailed aspects of issue 

           15    identification.  And that certainly is an issue that needs 

           16    to not only be brought up, but needs to be very thoroughly 

           17    analyzed.

           18             MEMBER JOHNSTON:  Thank you.  

           19             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Any other comments for field 

           20    managers?  

           21             MEMBER SHUMWAY:  I have one comment.  This is a 

           22    comment for all field management on this issue.  All the 

           23    field managers seem to be dedicating incredible amount of 

           24    times towards renewable energy issues.  I think everybody 

           25    can say that.  

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            1             And from my perspective as a representative from 

            2    the mineral development community, I am happy that all of 

            3    the potential uses of the desert, especially those who may 

            4    provide revenue back to the citizens who own the property, 

            5    will get the adequate amount of attention they need for 

            6    their proposals whether they are accepted or not.  

            7             I think also as a commission advising the managers 

            8    of the district, we should recognize that these proposals, 

            9    especially for solar and wind energy and their 

           10    transmission, not only take an incredible amount of staff 

           11    time, detracts from other issues that we all consider 

           12    important, access habitat, scenic, whatever, as well as 

           13    mineral resources.           

           14             For types of energy that are the most expensive 

           15    and will provide less per acre than let's say a traditional 

           16    coal, hydro or natural gas kind of plant, I think we need 

           17    to weigh those issues when we consider these.  And I don't 

           18    if the managers have it in their capacity to weigh those 

           19    kinds of things, too, but the commission should certainly 

           20    be aware of it.  

           21             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Thank you, Dinah.  

           22             MEMBER SCHILLER:  Just one more comment regarding 

           23    the field manager reports in general.  I would -- at one 

           24    time we were getting them in an electronic file.  This time 

           25    I notice we had several FedExes.  I think that is a waste 

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            1    of lot of waste of lot of paper.  

            2             And the other issue is I am very strong on public 

            3    participation and keeping the public involved.  I have 

            4    about 30 other people who I distribute this stuff to.  It 

            5    would be a whole lot easier if I received it electronically 

            6    and then kept the others informed as well through that.  

            7    Anything we can do electronically, I certainly would 

            8    appreciate it.  

            9             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  What we tried to do this time 

           10    and we did do this time was post all of the field managers 

           11    reports as well as a lot of the documents on the website 

           12    rather than actually e-mail them to folks, besides 

           13    restrictions affect that, so we posted all the reports and 

           14    various attachments.  You received the printouts on our 

           15    website and notified folks, I thought of their availability 

           16    on the website.  

           17            MEMBER SCHILLER:  I wasn't aware of that.  Thank 

           18    you.  

           19            MEMBER SHUMWAY:  I wasn't aware of that either.  

           20            DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  That is standard operation 

           21    practice and the easiest way of distribution.  

           22            MEMBER HUND:  I would like to suggest that the 

           23    process be as soon as they are available, that you posted 

           24    them and send an e-mail to each of the Council members 

           25    identifying that they are available with the link.  And for 

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            1    whatever reason, I missed that as well.  You may have done 

            2    it, but I missed the e-mail.  

            3            But if I know that is the standard operating 

            4    procedure, I will be looking for it.  I don't know how the 

            5    other Council members feel about it.  But if you do that 

            6    and you do it with preferably like a week before the 

            7    meeting minimum -- I realize sometimes you folks with all 

            8    the workload that you have, you are lucky to get them out 

            9    before the meeting.  But, anyways, the first possible.  

           10            MR. RAZO:  We better make sure of e-mails because I 

           11    went name by name to make sure everybody was covered when I 

           12    sent the e-mail out to say these are now on the web.  So we 

           13    better cross reference your e-mail addresses.  

           14            MEMBER HUND:  Once you have all of our e-mail 

           15    addresses and we agree that is standard operating 

           16    procedure, I for one would not need a paper copy.  Perhaps 

           17    you could save on the postage and the paper just by making 

           18    them available to us electronically and having paper copy 

           19    available at the meeting or upon request.  That way, we can 

           20    each take responsibility for downloading and print out a 

           21    copy if that's the way we chose to review it.  

           22             What do you folks think about that?  

           23             MEMBER MABEN:  I concur.  

           24             MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  As long as there is a paper 

           25    copy for us when we get here.  

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            1             MEMBER SCHILLER:  I just have a question.  I am 

            2    curious if there is a requirement somewhere else as far as 

            3    informing the public of what is going to be on the agenda 

            4    as far as time frame ahead of the meeting.  I had the 

            5    impression it was 30 days.  I know you advertise in the 

            6    Federal Register before the meeting.  But it's very often, 

            7    like this time, you know, we were still getting agendas a 

            8    couple days ago.  

            9             MR. RAZO:  The agenda didn't change.  We posted 

           10    the subjects for the agenda almost 30 days ago on the 

           11    website.  On the California State BLM State website, under 

           12    the Desert Advisory Council, it gives the date of the 

           13    meeting, what the agenda items are.  That has been there 

           14    for at least 30 days.  

           15             MEMBER SCHILLER:  I know I looked I don't remember 

           16    how long ago, but I noticed we were still having Minutes 

           17    missing from 2007.  

           18             MR. RAZO:  That was the last meeting.  

           19             MEMBER SCHILLER:  Right.  And so the Minutes still 

           20    hadn't been posted for quite sometime ago.  

           21             MR. RAZO:  The September 2007 Minutes are the 

           22    latest ones that are there because that is the last 

           23    meeting.  

           24             MEMBER SCHILLER:  As I recall, the last time I 

           25    looked, everything had not been updated.  Anyway, I was 

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            1    curious if there was some kind of requirement how far in 

            2    advance the agenda needs to be published for the public.  

            3             MR. RAZO:  30 days prior.  

            4             MEMBER SCHILLER:  Thank you.  

            5             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Unless anybody else -- I have a 

            6    comment regarding the Palm Springs office.  Collaborated on 

            7    the creation of the trail map.  

            8              Do you have a copy with you, by chance?  

            9              MR. KALISH:  I do not have a copy of the trail 

           10    map.  I wish I brought it.  

           11             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  This trail map that was produced 

           12    in collaboration with the BLM, Fish and Wildlife Service 

           13    and our offices, our EIS department collaborated by far one 

           14    of the finest trail maps, being a hiker and all.  Geary has 

           15    got one.  He should have one.  

           16             Anyway, pass it around.  It is very high quality.  

           17    Excellent job.  I just a wanted to make a note of that.

           18             MR. KALISH:  No. It's an excellent map and I think 

           19    it is an example of some of the best collaboration and what 

           20    can be accomplished.  

           21             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Very high quality.  Thank you.

           22              Unless there is no other comments from the 

           23    Council, I will open the public comment on the field 

           24    manager reports.  Please state your name for the record.  

           25    And I remind you you have three minutes.  

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            1             MR. WALDHEIM:  Edward Waldheim, California Trails 

            2    Users Coalition, which is CTUC, El Mirage, Jawbone, Kerns.  

            3             The noise issue, I would like to ask Mr. Borchard 

            4    to please put that on the agenda for your law enforcement 

            5    people to do it.  It makes no sense when they are in 

            6    Dumont, Glamis or El Mirage where they pay a fee to come 

            7    in, that they don't abide by noise because when they end 

            8    end up at Ridgecrest next to city -- or California City, 

            9    you can't stand the noise that is taking place.  Those have 

           10    to be muffled, they have to be shut down.  They need to be 

           11    confiscated and taken off of public land.  End of 

           12    discussion.  I want the BLM to really hit strong on that 

           13    issue.  It is State Law and Federal Law.  

           14             The trash issue, I am very, very concerned.  When 

           15    I was on the commission, I started in 1984, I told 

           16    everybody buy your Armadas, buy your toilets, bring your 

           17    trash can from Camping World.  I totally hated those 

           18    things.  I was totally against any Armadas.  I have come a 

           19    long way around.  

           20             I found out people just won't do it.  They will 

           21    just come and turn our desert into a toilet.  They will 

           22    take our Joshua tree and go and use the shade and put a 

           23    fire underneath it and burn our Joshua tree.  And they will 

           24    go take their trash and put it back in the pickup truck and 

           25    the wind blows it out into the middle of the road and we 

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            1    have got a trash situation.  

            2             I am sorry.  We cannot get out of the trash 

            3    business.  You are charging a fee.  Add a fee to it for the 

            4    trash.  Use as an example of the Ridgecrest office.  They 

            5    don't have a fee, but on heavy holiday weekends, we have 

            6    two dumps for SC 94.  As soon as Monday comes in, boom, 

            7    those cans are gone.  We cannot not provide a trash thing. 

            8    People will not take it home.  You are not going to leave 

            9    your trash in your house for very long.  What makes you 

           10    think a motor home is any different.  It's their house.  

           11    They are not going to travel with the trash sitting next to 

           12    them smelling.  Please do that.  

           13             Sterling, I love you for doing the noise in 

           14    Havasu.  I didn't know he was doing that.  You need to come 

           15    to Needles in front of my house and do the same thing on 

           16    the Colorado River.  That thing is incredible.  

           17             From your El Mirage Visitors Center, Roxie told me 

           18    about the visitors center, I want to make sure you put that 

           19    on your calendar.  It's October 25.  It's a cleanup that we 

           20    have.  Seven o'clock, we will have breakfast.  We will have 

           21    lunch at 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock, whenever the schedule is.  

           22    We would like to invite you all to come to the grand 

           23    opening of the visitors center.  That's a big joy.  That is 

           24    something we have been working on for the last 10 years.  

           25    Personally, I have been working on it for the last 30 years 

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            1    trying to get that in place going.  So that's something we 

            2    really want to do.  

            3              And remember -- I don't know when your next 

            4    meeting is -- the last weekend of April is the cleanup of 

            5    Jawbone and the first weekend in May is our El Mirage days.  

            6    So those are the things we would like to have the DAC 

            7    members join us.  

            8             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Right on three minutes, that was 

            9    great.

           10             MR. STEWART:  Good afternoon, Council Members.  

           11    John Stewart, California Association Four-Wheel Drives 

           12    Natural Resource Consultant with them.  

           13             To the reports, I would like at some point some 

           14    information on one of them deals with Palm Springs and the 

           15    other one with Ridgecrest.  Both are on the topic of 

           16    signing.  I have been receiving reports from various 

           17    California Association Four-Wheel Drive club members that 

           18    signs are being placed in the ground in the Ridgecrest area 

           19    up in the Argos Mountain range and the area Minneata Mine 

           20    Road area.  They are questioning the reason why so many 

           21    signs are going in where they appear to be on routes that 

           22    are supposed to be open.  

           23             And, also, the Palm Springs office talks about a 

           24    signing program going on in their region.  I would like to 

           25    see a little bit more of a clarification as to the status 

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            1    where the signs are going just so that I know when the 

            2    clubs get out there, they start seeing signs on the ground 

            3    and at least I can say, yes, those signs have been planned.  

            4    They are a work in process and, you know, just some kind of 

            5    general update on those would be appreciated.  

            6             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Thank you.  Any other public 

            7    comments on field reports?  We will close up public comment 

            8    period on that particular item.  

            9             Next item is a CDD Renewable Energy Program 

           10    Review.  Are you ready for that presentation?  

           11            DIRECTOR BORCHARD.  Before we do that, do we want 

           12    to talk about our potential dining opportunities?  

           13            MR. RAZO:  You have on the table there, there 

           14    should be a Riverside dining -- and you have some options.  

           15    In the past, we tried to get a group together as far as the 

           16    social aspect to get to know each other and find a place to 

           17    go.  You have options here in Riverside.  When we have met 

           18    in Riverside, we have used the Las Campanas restaurant at 

           19    the Mission Inn because you don't need  a reservation 

           20    there.  The food is pretty good.  There is a nice bar area, 

           21    lounge area to hang out in, as a possibility.  

           22             You have the Lake Alice Restaurant, which is on 

           23    Mission -- the next street down.  It's on the brochure 

           24    there.  This is all within walking distance.  They are 

           25    little more sports bar type of atmosphere, a more little 

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            1    noisy and they serve sandwiches, salads, as well as pasta.  

            2             You have the Spaghetti Factory which is just on 

            3    the other side of the freeway.  That seems to be a popular 

            4    place, also.  

            5             If you want to go snooty, you can go to the 

            6    Seville and a topless bar there.  

            7             MR. SCHILLER:  Topless?

            8             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Topless?  

            9                    (Laughter.)

           10             MR. RAZO:  So whatever is the pleasure of the 

           11    council and, of course, it's not a requirement, per se, but 

           12    certainly if you can all decide, then we can all know where 

           13    we are going to meet and I have a runner ready in case you 

           14    are going to go to a restaurant that requires a 

           15    reservation, he is ready to get on the phone right now and 

           16    get a reservation, if we need to go that route.  

           17             So I think your only choices, unless you see 

           18    something in there that you like, the Las Campanas and the 

           19    Lake Alice I believe you don't need reservations.  

           20                           (Discussion.)

           21             MR. RAZO:  We can bring it up after the 

           22    presentation.  Is that enough time for you?  Maybe sooner 

           23    is better.  

           24             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  What's the pleasure of the 

           25    Council?  

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            1                           (Discussion.)

            2             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Greg Miller, who you will 

            3    meet, was here.  He had a very important serious 

            4    commitment.  He thought he would be done by now.  We 

            5    thought we would be.  He had to go, but Allen is here to 

            6    fill in.  

            7             MR. STEIN:  Yes, I apologize.  This is -- my name 

            8    is Alan Stein.  I am Deputy District Manager for Resources.  

            9    And Greg Miller, our new Renewable Energy Program lead, 

           10    prepared this presentation and finalized it earlier this 

           11    morning when I was in another meeting, so I really haven't 

           12    had a chance to see this yet.  But I kind of know something 

           13    about the renewable energy in the desert.  So I will start 

           14    with that.  

           15              We wanted to go through -- I think some of you 

           16    have at least some element of this presentation before.  

           17    BLM has through the Renewable -- through the Energy Policy 

           18    Act, has established goals for BLM to develop renewable 

           19    energy on public lands.  And part of what we are doing 

           20    now -- and we will go through some of this in terms of the 

           21    different elements of the Renewable Energy Program both 

           22    nationally and in the Bureau -- some of the planning that 

           23    we have done up until this point in the California Desert 

           24    has essentially set the basis for identifying lands that 

           25    are suitable or unsuitable for renewable energy development 

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            1    and the Programmatic EIS is going to do a little bit more 

            2    of that.  

            3             One of the problems that we have in terms of 

            4    settings goals, too, is that you can't look at the energy 

            5    development project independently of the transmission.  And 

            6    they don't always occur simultaneously.  Sometimes they 

            7    occur at a little bit different points in time.  So it 

            8    gives us a little bit of difficulty in trying to make these 

            9    go through a coherent process from step to step.  

           10             Years ago, I was dealing with some of what we 

           11    mentioned before in terms of coal projects and coal power 

           12    plants.  In those days, we have a coal-fired power plant up 

           13    in Nevada or Utah and we follow the transmission line all 

           14    the way down to the L.A. basin.  

           15             We are really not doing that with these 

           16    transmission lines that we are dealing with right now 

           17    because we don't develop one project and then have a 

           18    transmission line for that project, have another project 

           19    and have another transmission line for that project.  All 

           20    of that is going to have to feed into an existing 

           21    transmission system and a transmission system that's going 

           22    to have to be upgraded.  

           23             This is dealing potentially -- what we are talking 

           24    about here is the Programmatic EIS on solar energy 

           25    elements.  And that's going to deal with a six-state area, 

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            1    which includes California, Arizona, Nevada, as well as 

            2    other states.  But most of the proposals are going to be in 

            3    California, Arizona, Nevada.  New Mexico, Utah and Colorado 

            4    will have an isolated solar energy project.  

            5             But in terms of renewable energy, we also have a 

            6    fairly aggressive program for wind energy development as 

            7    well as geothermal.  

            8             As I mentioned before, the current guidance comes 

            9    out of the Energy Policy Act and you can see the goals 

           10    there:  10,000 megawatts from public lands of renewable 

           11    energy.  Right now there is -- a large proportion of that 

           12    has already been met in terms of wind and geothermal.  We 

           13    don't have any solar yet, but wind and geothermal has 

           14    basically met those goals or comes pretty close.  

           15            Then we have got some other executive orders as 

           16    well as the California Renewable Energy Portfolio 

           17    Standards, which has really given the utility companies in 

           18    California the impetus to develop renewable energy and 

           19    several other states also have Renewable Portfolio 

           20    Standards.  So it's trying to encourage -- it's set up by 

           21    the states and it is trying to encourage the utility 

           22    companies to change the mix of energy generation that they 

           23    have less carbon-based, more renewable energy.

           24              Right now, here are some of the other things that 

           25    we have going on.  The Draft Westwide Energy Corridor 

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            1    Programmatic EIS has been released in October of 2007.  

            2    Some of the corridors that were established in that EIS did 

            3    not match the corridors that we designated in the 

            4    California Desert Plan in 1980.  

            5             In the California Desert Conservation Area Plan, 

            6    we designated utility corridors so that we would not have 

            7    these linear facilities going all over the desert and we 

            8    would have them in fairly identified areas so that 

            9    everybody could look at that and say that's where we need 

           10    to go.  If we can't go there, we need to be able to just 

           11    find a place to hook into that corridor so we are not going 

           12    every which way across the desert.  

           13             The Wind Energy Programmatic EIS was finalized in 

           14    June of 2005.  It amended the land use plans for a lot of 

           15    states, but did not amend the land use plans in California.  

           16    But it does provide some best management practices and 

           17    other kinds of guidance that we can use to develop wind 

           18    energy in California.  

           19             The Solar Energy Programmatic has completed its 

           20    scoping process earlier in the month.  I think it was   

           21    July 15 was the end of the scoping period.  And that's a 

           22    joint EIS between BLM and the Department of Energy.  And 

           23    they are currently in the process now of looking at the 

           24    scoping comments, including some comments that they 

           25    received internally and will be preparing a draft EIS.  

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            1             There is also a Draft Geothermal Programmatic that 

            2    was released in June.  The comments on that draft EIS are 

            3    due in September of this year.  

            4             And this -- you can go on through that.  Those are 

            5    some of the corridors that were identified in the Westwide 

            6    Corridor EIS.  As I mentioned, some of those, they have 

            7    revised them to match up a little bit better.  Sometimes 

            8    you might hear those corridors called 368 Corridors.  

            9    That's the section out of the Act that identifies those 

           10    corridors.  And I think some other states may have been a 

           11    little bit farther behind us.  That was the Wind Energy 

           12    Programmatic EIS

           13             This shows where some major wind energy 

           14    development potential is located.  We have quite a bit down 

           15    here.  

           16             That's another map.  

           17             Right now, within the California Desert, we have 

           18    about 97 applications for wind energy.  Most of those 

           19    applications are for testing.  Solar energy and wind energy 

           20    are a little bit different in process and the procedures 

           21    that we go through.  

           22             Typically, a company will file an application for 

           23    wind energy testing, and that they will be issued a 

           24    three-year permit to test the wind, during which time they 

           25    can complete some studies of bird studies or other 

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            1    biological studies and cultural studies of the area.  

            2             When they file the application for testing, they 

            3    typically "reserve," I will put that in qoutes, "certain 

            4    acreage for development."  And nobody can file applications 

            5    over that area for wind energy, so we don't have layered 

            6    applications for wind energy.  

            7             By the end of the three-year period, that company 

            8    files an application for wind energy testing has to submit 

            9    a plan of development to -- for us to go see and develop 

           10    that area.  How they plan to put it in, how many turbines 

           11    and so forth as well as how they are going to hook into the 

           12    energy grid.

           13             This is not really a good -- this map doesn't show 

           14    up very well.  It's much clearer if it's just a page size 

           15    map.  But you can see many of the applications are in 

           16    green, so these applications are pretty well spread out 

           17    over all five field offices.  

           18             There is the solar energy just kind of gives you 

           19    an idea.  There are 125 applications for solar energy -- we 

           20    do have some applications that are stacked one on top of 

           21    another because there is no -- nothing that prohibits that.  

           22    So if the company that has the application that is first in 

           23    line drops out, then somebody else can take their place.  

           24    But we don't look at two applications at the same time.  

           25    The only one we look at is the one that is first in line.  

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            1             In terms of solar energy, there is two basic 

            2    different kinds of technology.  There is concentrated solar 

            3    power.  And what you see here is, that's the Sterling 

            4    engine.  You can see the mirrors here.  And the engine is 

            5    up here on the top.  And that's what creates the energy.  

            6             This one right here is photovoltaic.  That's the 

            7    type of technology that you would put on top of your house 

            8    or on top of the building.  That's the power tower.  This 

            9    is not -- these are -- excuse me.  These are all 

           10    concentrating solar power.  

           11             This one, there is a large number of reflectors 

           12    that point to the top of the power tower.  And that's where 

           13    the electricity is generated.  These are parobolic troughs.  

           14    And this down here is a tube that runs oil that is heated 

           15    by that trough of solar reflectors.  And that follows the 

           16    sun and it keeps heating that fluid to about 700, 700 plus 

           17    degrees, which then in turn is taken to create steam and 

           18    run the generator.  

           19             This is photovoltaic.  This looks like a Sterling 

           20    engine, but it's not.  It is photovoltaic.  This here is 

           21    the same type photovoltaic that you might put on your 

           22    house.  And this, again, shows, like the wind, shows the 

           23    resource potential and most of it is down in this part of 

           24    the country.  Some of it depends on the elevation.     

           25             Surprisingly enough, some of the hottest areas may 

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            1    not be the best.  It may be better -- one of the -- some of 

            2    the greatest areas, the areas with greatest potential are 

            3    in the High Desert.  There is plenty of sun.  They are a 

            4    little higher so there is less atmosphere to pass through 

            5    so the potential is a bit greater.  

            6             And this shows a map of our solar applications.  

            7    It's not 100 percent current, but it kind of gives you 

            8    another idea of the widespread nature of these 

            9    applications.  

           10             There is another EIS, as I mentioned, that is 

           11    geothermal leasing.  Okay.  I apologize.  Give me a minute 

           12    to think.  

           13             What we are faced with right now is that under our 

           14    Desert Plan, we have created a lot of land use decisions 

           15    which have identified restrictions and types of uses that 

           16    may be available or not available.  

           17             Right now, the desert plan provides that renewable 

           18    energy development must be addressed through a plan 

           19    amendment because there were no renewable energy plans 

           20    identified in the Desert Plan.  But because of the 

           21    restrictions that we have in some areas, it may not be 

           22    suitable for wind or solar energy development.  

           23             Obviously, in wilderness areas, it's not 

           24    appropriate.  And it's totally excluded.  In areas of 

           25    critical environmental concern, there may be management 

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            1    constraints which would make it very difficult to develop 

            2    renewable energy.  

            3             In our critical environmental areas like desert 

            4    wildlife management areas and the habitat for the ground 

            5    squirrel, we have one percent disturbance limitations, so 

            6    only one percent of that particular area, public lands in a 

            7    particular DWMA, may be able to be disturbed and no more.  

            8    So that's going to control what we can do.  

            9             What we have done as far as solar energy because 

           10    solar energy, is so all-encompassing and disturbs 

           11    virtually -- disturbs or fences in virtually the entire 

           12    project area, we have tried to encourage applicants to stay 

           13    out of desert wildlife management areas.  And for solar 

           14    energy to this point, they have done that, but we really 

           15    don't have any way to predict what is going to happen 

           16    beyond this point now that we are accepting applications 

           17    again.  We do recognize that there are tremendous amount of 

           18    concerns.          

           19             One of the things that we are struggling with is 

           20    how to address cumulative impacts because we have no way of 

           21    knowing or predicting which projects or how many projects 

           22    may go in.  

           23             We have developed a -- to handle the solar 

           24    projects or the concentrating solar projects, we have 

           25    developed a Memorandum of Understanding with the California 

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            1    Energy Commission.  The only solar projects they are 

            2    responsible for are concentrating solar projects.  They are 

            3    not responsible for photovoltaic, so we will be working 

            4    jointly with California Energy Commission on those 

            5    projects.  And the Ivanpah is the first project right along 

            6    I-15 right at the Nevada that we are working on with them.  

            7             Another project, Solar Two, Sterling Solar Two 

            8    project down in the El Centro field office area, they just 

            9    filed an application for certification with CEC, so we will 

           10    be working on that pretty soon.  

           11            We have developed a Memorandum of Understanding 

           12    with Fish and Wildlife Service to try and set up a process 

           13    where they can expeditiously prepare biologic opinions on 

           14    the solar projects and the wind projects.  

           15            We have also have a Memorandum of Understanding 

           16    with San Bernardino County where we will work with them on 

           17    projects that they have responsibility for.  So we have 

           18    tried to set up -- set the stage for working together with 

           19    agencies that we need to work together with to get this 

           20    work done.  And what we have listed there is several 

           21    websites that are pertinent to energy development.  

           22             So that's basically the summary of where we are 

           23    right now.  

           24             MEMBER SCHILLER:  So, essentially, all what you 

           25    said is can't be in wilderness study areas, can't be in 

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            1    wilderness areas, can't be in ACEC areas, can't be in DWMA 

            2    areas.  What's left?  

            3             All that's left is recreation areas.  That looks 

            4    like it's going to come out of open areas and areas set 

            5    aside for recreation under the plan

            6             MR. STEIN:  What's left is there is -- 

            7             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  Excuse me, Al.  You know how 

            8    they say "a picture is worth a thousand words"?  

            9             Here's the picture of where we were just looking 

           10    at, nothing but sunshine on the land.  See all the red, the 

           11    really dark red?

           12             MEMBER: SCHILLER:  Yes.

           13             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  That's just looks at 

           14    "solarity" values or how the sun shines on the ground.  All 

           15    Right.  Then you start subtracting lands out like the 

           16    wilderness areas and DWMAs.  

           17             So this next picture subtracts -- this is 

           18    everybody's land, everybody's Federal land.  Now you 

           19    subtract out the land and you just show the same data that 

           20    only showed on BLM land.  You've got less red.  

           21             Now, a third screen, you subtract out on the BLM 

           22    land, you subtract out DWMAs, wilderness areas, wilderness 

           23    study areas, areas of critical environmental concern, 

           24    Flat-Tailed Horned Lizard, and we will have the squirrel 

           25    habitat.  Subtract those three out.  And this is what you 

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            1    end up with.  

            2             However, you just appended your statement, what 

            3    about open areas or places that are OHV areas.  We don't 

            4    have a solar application in an open OHV area.  Zero.  We 

            5    have turned them all away.  We have three wind  

            6    applications to cover part of one open OHV area and that's 

            7    Johnson Valley.  

            8             MEMBER SCHILLER:  I would have to say that's 

            9    pretty good except most of the public doesn't recreate in 

           10    open areas.  We recreate in the limited areas in areas 

           11    where there is mineral collecting opportunities, where 

           12    there is hunting opportunities, where there is fishing 

           13    opportunities, although, we don't have any fishing 

           14    impacted.  We do have areas where equestrian use is taking 

           15    place and other kinds of events.  And I am just concerned 

           16    that we are not looking at mitigating those opportunities.

           17             MR. STEIN:  That's a valid concern, but let me 

           18    tell you what we are doing.  When we talk with an applicant 

           19    about an application, about a project going in, we do 

           20    discuss with them routes, access routes that will be cut 

           21    off and that they need to make sure that the same level of 

           22    access continues to be provided across wherever that 

           23    project area is.  

           24             We are not just going to allow a company to plunk 

           25    down a project and ignore the access that's been 

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            1    eliminated.

            2             MEMBER SCHILLER:  But you still have acreage 

            3    consumed by large solar reflector areas you can't -- I 

            4    mean, so you can go across, but where are you going to go?  

            5    You still lose acreage.  What I would suggest is look at 

            6    some of the areas that we closed off in or routes that we 

            7    designated in NECO and some of the other areas that were 

            8    existing routes that should be reconsidered and to mitigate 

            9    these opportunity losses.

           10             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Dinah, did you have a question or 

           11    comment?

           12             MEMBER SHUMWAY:  I do have a question and comment.  

           13             Dinah Shumway.  In my business, to get approval, 

           14    you have to show you have a viable project, so you do a 

           15    cash flow analysis, the whole thing.  So if you got sun and 

           16    you got sun in certain areas and you are eliminating areas 

           17    that cannot be used for a variety -- in this case, mostly 

           18    habitat or land steward types of issues.  And, also, the 

           19    OHV is also eliminated.  I am not an OHV person, but I use 

           20    other areas of desert as well.  And I am sure a lot of 

           21    other people do.  

           22             Even if you assure access, for example, through a 

           23    solar facility, you are totally taking away any kind of 

           24    scenic value that that route may have had in the past.  

           25    That's my comment.  

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            1             My question is, these are energy resources that 

            2    the -- that are heavily subsidized.  They are very 

            3    expensive.  I have worked on solar projects before.  I am 

            4    not convinced that they can be demonstrated to have been 

            5    economic projects, especially without subsidy, which the 

            6    taxpayer is going to have to address.  So what kind of 

            7    financial benefits do we hope reap from allowing any of 

            8    these projects, assuming that some do get permitted?  

            9             MR. STEIN:  First of all, let me clear something 

           10    up.  I did not intend to imply that there would be access 

           11    through a solar project.  It might be around it to provide 

           12    access from a location on one side to the other.

           13             MEMBER SHUMWAY:  My comment about scenic value 

           14    still holds true.

           15             MR. STEIN:  Right.  It does.  And that's certainly 

           16    something that would be explored when we do an 

           17    Environmental Impact Statement.  It's obvious it's a 

           18    single -- clearly affects visual resources.  It clearly 

           19    affects scenic value.  Those are factors that we would look 

           20    at when we examine the impacts.

           21             MEMBER SHUMWAY:  What about the economic?  

           22             MR. STEIN:  That would be part of the analysis of 

           23    the economic value in terms of whatever BLM would collect 

           24    rental, but that rental essentially goes to the U.S. 

           25    Treasury.

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            1             MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Let me rephrase my question.  

            2    What kind of economic benefit can the American taxpayers 

            3    expect to get from the use of this land as you proposed?  

            4             MR. STEIN:  Economic benefit, that I don't know.

            5             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Wait a second.  This is a 

            6    question that came up over a year ago.  I think it was in 

            7    Barstow.  And we started talking about the solar 

            8    development and all the applications coming down the pipe 

            9    because of the incentive.  And the question was, we 

           10    understand BLM gets rent.  There is two aspects of that.  

           11             These will generate over the long terms 

           12    theoretically a great deal of money for the developer, the 

           13    applicant, the end user, of course, hopefully, it actually 

           14    works and is feasible.  

           15             MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Big assumption.

           16             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Big assumption, I know.  The 

           17    situation is, though, that, if I may use that, when we talk 

           18    about this, I am not sure that, number one, the BLM rental 

           19    agreement system does what it needs to with regard to value 

           20    of the development; in other words, we never really 

           21    answered the question.  Are you talking about rent per acre 

           22    based on agricultural basis or commercial basis?  

           23             MR. STEIN:  No.  It would have to be done based on 

           24    an appraisal and fair market value for whatever the use is 

           25    going to be.

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            1             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  The use or the land?  

            2             MR. STEIN:  The use.

            3             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Because -- okay.

            4             MS. SHUMWAY:  Excuse me.  That's a whole -- then 

            5    that should be based on discounting cash flow that 

            6    addresses potential revenue.  

            7             So are you suggesting that the amount of rental 

            8    would be related to the cash revenue generated by such a 

            9    project?  

           10             MR. STEIN:  I can't answer that question.  I am 

           11    not an appraiser.  

           12             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  I am under the impression that 

           13    it would be the same rate if a company went out and leased 

           14    private land and built a facility like this.  

           15             MR. STEIN:  Right.  

           16             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  But the rental rate would be 

           17    paid to the Federal Government.  It's the same rate that 

           18    would be paid to a private landowner.

           19             MEMBER SHUMAY:  That would be a private party 

           20    agreement between two private party companies.  It could be 

           21    a royalty.  It could be a percentage of cash flow.  It 

           22    could be a flat monthly rate.  It could be anything.  

           23             I am asking what's the method here?  Are we going 

           24    to expect to benefit based on some kind of revenue from 

           25    these energy companies?  

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            1             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  It doesn't change.  It's the 

            2    same rental rating a private property owner is expected to 

            3    receive.  

            4             MR. STEIN:  That's what the fair market value 

            5    would be.  

            6             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  But the County and the State 

            7    will receive -- we had this discussion yesterday.  It's 

            8    going to be -- this idea was discussed yesterday that the 

            9    County or State would receive like property tax value on 

           10    improvements, so the value of the improvements on the land 

           11    are subject to like property taxes.  

           12             MEMBER MABEN:  State law prohibits any solar 

           13    facility paying property tax.  The only time you pay 

           14    property tax is if they sell it to a new owner.  

           15             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  If they invest a billion 

           16    dollars -- 

           17             MEMBER MABEN:  Billion bucks tax free.  

           18             DIRECTOR BORCHARD:  The county is getting screwed.    

           19             MEMBER SHUMWAY:  Screwed.  The taxpayers are.  The 

           20    point to my one question is, when we are looking at this 

           21    and we are looking at the resources that we are all in this 

           22    room discussing right now, staff is spending time on, my 

           23    concern is for what the taxpayers and the citizens who own 

           24    this land are giving up in terms habitat, scenic value, 

           25    public access, for whatever reasons, just driving our 

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            1    vehicles across to have a picnic one afternoon.  I feel the 

            2    public asking to give up a lot to generate the most 

            3    expensive-type energy that we know of, for which not very 

            4    few companies can actually show they make a profit.  

            5              So my question is, if I own that land personally, 

            6    I would get an annual fee for the use of that land and it's 

            7    paid up front, not whether they make a profit or whether 

            8    there -- for whatever reason, the potential profitability 

            9    may be.  

           10              I want, just as if I was going to say, hey, 

           11    listen, you have got 50 acres here and I want to take a 

           12    drill rig and I want to go out and see what I have got.  

           13    The property owner is going to say, okay, give me $5,000 a 

           14    month and you get three months to do something.  

           15              I think the taxpayers deserve to get fair market 

           16    value for this or at least something.  And so I am 

           17    concerned the taxpayers are going to get no revenue for the 

           18    use of their land.

           19             MR. STEIN:  No.  Their rental would not be based 

           20    on their profits.  Their rental would be whatever the 

           21    appraisal came out to be.  And if they didn't make money, 

           22    they didn't make money.

           23             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  This is the flaw we talked about 

           24    before.  This is different than someone basically renting 

           25    out, subleasing or whatever the case may be.  

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            1             What was talked about prior was, number one, when 

            2    the subject came up was, I think it was Geary that 

            3    mentioned, because the BLM was going to be burdened with 

            4    these applications and the work that needed to be done, 

            5    both from the environmental standpoint, the application, 

            6    the process standpoint, et cetera, was that we get extra 

            7    money from Washington to help the processes.  

            8            The other side of the conversation was we ought to 

            9    be getting return of the dollar of the income off of the 

           10    development itself; in other words, if I am a private 

           11    property owner and a solar developer comes to me and I am 

           12    going to give him guaranteed minimum rent to me, plus a 

           13    percentage of the generation.

           14             MR. STEIN:  That would be something I would see 

           15    being addressed in the Programmatic EIS because that's 

           16    really a programmatic issue.

           17             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  And then that royalty, per se, 

           18    returns to the district and does not get sent to Washington 

           19    to end up in a black hole.  

           20             MEMBER HOLIDAY:  When you do a lease -- let's say 

           21    you lease some land for sand and gravel, do you get a 

           22    percentage on that, a royalty on what is taken out of the 

           23    ground?  

           24             MR. STEIN:  Well, you are talking apples and 

           25    oranges.  

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            1             MEMBER HOLIDAY:  I understand what I am saying -- 

            2             MR. STEIN:  Sand and gravel is saleable.  

            3             MEMBER HOLIDAY:  Well, the energy is a saleable 

            4    product, also.  I am trying to understand if the BLM gets 

            5    the royalty for -- if they have a vendor on site and that 

            6    vendor is charged based on the amount they sell.  

            7             MR. STEIN:  In terms of energy, we can talk energy 

            8    because we have got a number of different kinds of 

            9    energy-related activities.  What we are talking about is 

           10    not doing something based on profitability or anything like 

           11    that.  That becomes very labor intensive in order to 

           12    monitor the company's books and everything.  

           13              So what we are really -- what we are really 

           14    looking at, as I understand it, is for an appraiser to 

           15    establish a rental, however that appraiser does it.  Part 

           16    of it is going to be on the statement of work that we 

           17    provide to the appraiser.  

           18              And, obviously, that statement of work isn't 

           19    going to be something that I am going to write here for the 

           20    California Desert District.  It's something that needs to 

           21    be written nationally for solar projects everywhere, for 

           22    wind energy projects everywhere so that it is all 

           23    consistent.  And that's why we use an appraiser because it 

           24    may be a little bit different, depending on the location, 

           25    what fair market value would be.  

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            1             To some degree, it is going to value of the lands, 

            2    but I don't think that that's going to be the major factor 

            3    of the appraisal.  And the major factor of the appraisal is 

            4    going to be what it is used for.  I think the major factor 

            5    in the appraisal is going to be what it's being used for.

            6             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Geary, you had -- 

            7             MEMBER HUND:  Yes.  I had a comment.  

            8             I wanted to make a point and that's while I   

            9    agree with much of what has been said here by my fellow 

           10    Council Members and I want to reiterate that this    

           11    process is absolutely imperative that it be done 

           12    thoughtfully and responsibly as it relates to the resources 

           13    and to the public and their public lands, there is a  

           14    larger public benefit that is driving much of this and that 

           15    is the reduction -- anticipated reduction in carbon 

           16    emissions and the urgent need to fight global life change, 

           17    which imposes a serious threat to not only human beings 

           18    from the standpoint of natural disasters, but also how that 

           19    relates to the economic affects of climate disruption 

           20    change.  

           21             So I think there is some economic benefit and some 

           22    potential survival, and I don't think that should be lost 

           23    on us or on this discussion.  But at the same time, I do 

           24    have the concern that because there is, I believe, actual 

           25    urgency to start reducing -- drastically reducing carbon 

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            1    emissions, that because there is that urgent need, that we 

            2    don't sweep aside all the normal checks and balances that 

            3    exists to make sure that we do things properly.

            4             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Don?  

            5             MEMBER MABEN.  I would like to respond to Geary.  

            6    A couple of things.  

            7             Solar fields in the desert are not economical.  

            8    They are not good for the economy because, one, they take 

            9    tax dollars and redirect them.  If you really want to get 

           10    economic advantages and reduce carbon emissions and less 

           11    damage to the environment, just solarize the rooftops.  We 

           12    don't need transmission lines.  Just put them on the 

           13    building that uses it.  

           14             MEMBER HUND:  I am with you all the way on that.

           15             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Meg?  

           16             MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  I have a question about the 

           17    wind turbine projects in Johnson Valley.  I have been told 

           18    a couple different things.   

           19             My first question is once the military puts in 

           20    their withdrawal application, which we are expecting at the 

           21    end of the summer, will it then totally stop these wind 

           22    applications, the processing of the wind applications?  Let 

           23    me get that straight.  

           24             MR. STEIN:  We wouldn't be able to make a decision 

           25    on it until that application for withdrawal has been 

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            1    processed.  

            2             MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  Would you continue with the 

            3    need of process on those, like we just got done with 

            4    scoping for Wes Fry, would you continue and put out a draft 

            5    and then a final and then just wait on the record for the 

            6    decisions until the withdrawal was processed, or how does 

            7    that work?  

            8             MR. STEIN:  I believe we would continue with the 

            9    process, but we couldn't make a decision.  And that's -- 

           10    certainly because most of this is done under cost of 

           11    recovery and the company is paying the bill.  

           12             If the company doesn't want to pay the bill and 

           13    would prefer to wait, then we would wait.  But if the 

           14    company agreed to go ahead and process it, we would 

           15    continue to process it without reaching a decision.  

           16             MEMBER GROSSGLASS:  That sort of answers both my 

           17    questions then.  Thank you.

           18             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  April? 

           19             MEMBER SALL:  Just a comment regarding Don's 

           20    comments and Geary's comments.  You know, there has been a 

           21    lot of pressure I feel in articles like the Scientific 

           22    American Article and the recent one that we got a copy of 

           23    from Fortune Magazine.  

           24             Mojave Desert is to take sort of the brunt of this 

           25    solar energy development on public lands.  And I think it 

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            1    is important when talking about the cumulative impacts of 

            2    these decisions, that we also address the issues that are 

            3    other great solar opportunities outside of the California 

            4    Desert District Map.  And that also includes opportunities 

            5    on private land, on rooftops as well as on other degraded 

            6    lands, abandoned military sites, et cetera.  

            7             So in terms of making decisions, just the BLM very 

            8    conservative approving large solar projects due to the 

            9    timing of the process in terms of technology, the 

           10    technology is rapidly changing.  There are other 

           11    opportunities in terms of upgrading transmission like super 

           12    conductor DC wires.  

           13             And also, solar technology itself is, of course, 

           14    changing very rapidly.  That that all be addressed when 

           15    considering the fact we have a limited amount of public 

           16    land left and we are trying to balance the multi-use 

           17    mission of BLM and in terms of not making this an issue of 

           18    recreation lands versus wilderness and who should sacrifice 

           19    to mitigate -- we consider, again, that there are areas 

           20    outside of the California Desert District to meet those 

           21    needs.

           22             MR. STEIN:  Yeah, that certainly is a valid 

           23    consideration.  And many of those concerns, such as putting 

           24    solar on rooftops and all those kinds of consideration, are 

           25    something that we'll have to address each time we have a 

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            1    project.  

            2             But the other thing we need to look at, and that's 

            3    why the consideration of solar on rooftops is important, is 

            4    how much energy is going to be needed at the load center.  

            5    And that's something that needs to be factored into the 

            6    determinations and the analysis as well.  

            7             And part of that in California is with the 

            8    California Independent System Operator, and they are the 

            9    ones who look at energy generation and transmission and how 

           10    much additional transmission is going to be needed and 

           11    where and who is going to pay for it and all those kinds of 

           12    considerations.  

           13             With the number of projects that we have right now 

           14    on the books that are pending, you know, one of the things 

           15    we would have to look at, if we were looking all in one 

           16    box, is that much energy needed in the load center.  And if 

           17    it's not needed, the company, regardless of how much they 

           18    generate, it isn't going to have anywhere to go if it's not 

           19    needed.  

           20             So in short, we really don't look at all of the 

           21    applications we currently have on hand, that all of them 

           22    are going to go forward.  It's not going to happen.  But 

           23    how many of them are going to go forward, how many of them 

           24    are going to be needed, is something that we can't do that 

           25    analysis ourselves.  

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            1             We need the help of other agencies like Cal ISO, 

            2    like the energy companies, like public, everybody needs to 

            3    be part of this process.  And that's what we are trying to 

            4    do when we go through the NEPA process.  

            5             Right now, as far as solar energy goes, we don't 

            6    see any more than about a dozen projects at the maximum 

            7    that would start through the environmental process by the 

            8    end of this calendar year and I don't even think there will 

            9    be that many that will start.  

           10             MEMBER SALL:  I understand.  And I just want to, I 

           11    guess, sympathize with the BLM for the pressure that you 

           12    are receiving and this process and the lack of staffing and 

           13    just more to, I guess, to generate some knowledge about the 

           14    support needed to keep a slow and mindful process with this 

           15    because there are other options on the table.

           16             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Any other -- 

           17             MEMBER BANIS:  Randy Banis.  If I may, just a 

           18    general comment is that there is a national priority to 

           19    just award to protect our freedoms.  We all share in that 

           20    pain, Americans collectively, we all share in that.  The 

           21    development of alternate energy -- alternative energy is a 

           22    national priority and it has been stated so from the White 

           23    House down.  I just don't see that we are all going to be 

           24    sharing in the pain.  I think that some will be feeling 

           25    more pain than others, and I would like to just keep in 

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            1    mind and see how we continue to make this.  

            2             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  We do have a public comment 

            3    session, so we will open that and then we will bring it 

            4    back to Council for wrap-up on this issue.  

            5            State your name for the record and remind you that 

            6    you only have three minutes.  

            7            MR. STEWART:  Good afternoon.  John Stewart, 

            8    Natural Resource Consultant, California Association 

            9    Four-Wheel Drive Clubs.  

           10            This is an energy issue that is going to be an 

           11    emotionally charged issue with no easy answer.  If you 

           12    focus on the area of the Council's charter being within the 

           13    public lands of the California Desert District, that 

           14    narrows the scope of the problem to dealing within the 

           15    district or within the public lands within the California 

           16    Desert Conservation District only.  

           17            I would suggest that this problem and probably a 

           18    solution lies much further, much greater and it is more 

           19    than just the apparent solutions for wind and solar.  There 

           20    are a lot of overriding issues, a lot of points that 

           21    neighboring communities and neighboring states need to be 

           22    brought into the mix.  Some creative thinking is going to 

           23    be needed in order to come up with a solution.  

           24            On one hand, I can see a logical point.  Just put 

           25    it on the rooftops.  Well, there you are potentially 

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            1    impacting homeowners on private property that may not have 

            2    the financial wherewithal to pull it off.  So somewhere 

            3    somebody is going to pay big bucks.  And this taken outside 

            4    of the box might even have to go back and revisit some of 

            5    the decisions made on land issues or land use 

            6    classifications 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago in light of new 

            7    information.  Thank you.

            8             MR. WALDHEIM:  Ed Waldheim for California Trail 

            9    Use Coalition.  

           10             This whole issue is just absolutely driving me 

           11    insane.  The California public has a right to recreate on 

           12    the public lands.  You have gone through a process to 

           13    designate the blame, including recreation, which means any 

           14    person who drives or walks off the payment becomes an 

           15    off-roader.  It doesn't matter if you are running like 

           16    crazy or if you are driving, you are an off-roader any way 

           17    you look at it.  

           18             We have to think about where are we putting these 

           19    things.  The knowledge or the thinking that only open areas 

           20    or recreational areas are up for sale is ludicrous.   

           21    McCain Valley, they are going to change that.  Now, all of 

           22    a sudden, an off-highway vehicle area is open for 

           23    recreation.  

           24             The supervisor from San Bernardino, Brad 

           25    Mitzelfeldt said why with are we lifting the moratorium?  

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            1    We haven't even done a cumulative study on that issue.  

            2    California came up with a 20 percent they want of renewable 

            3    resource.  They only obtained 11 percent at this point.  

            4             There is a Proposition 7 in November that they are 

            5    going to require the energies to go to 50 percent.  There 

            6    is no way we can apply for that.  

            7             I mean, you talk about solar energy, solar energy 

            8    system BLM land were feasible.  What are we doing here?  

            9             Fry Mountain, you have a document in front of you 

           10    that some groups are trying to come up with a mitigation.  

           11    It is ludicrous, totally ludicrous.  

           12             When you do mitigation for things -- mitigation we 

           13    have been talking about for the last 30 years about 

           14    mitigation -- if we are going to take some recreational 

           15    opportunities away from the public, you should at least 

           16    have one for ten, ten acres for one acre that is taken away 

           17    from you.  Give them something in replacement.  

           18              Roy Denner made it very clear at every DAC 

           19    meeting, if you are going to take something away, then 

           20    replace it with something.  Why all of a sudden everything 

           21    is gold and locked up except the public's recreational 

           22    opportunity.  It makes absolutely no sense.

           23              And I think the Bureau has an obligation to the 

           24    other folks, recreational community, I don't care if it is 

           25    ORV or film industry, I don't care if it is military, 

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            1    solar, wind, geothermal, those folks need to go someplace 

            2    else.  They need to go military, go east.  The solar people 

            3    can go buy private property like in they do in Camp 

            4    Pendleton.  They bought 3,000 acres to put the solar pocket 

            5    up there.          

            6              I talked to Tom today from the Hanson Ranch on 

            7    the way down here.  He said, Ed, we have so many ranges 

            8    that you could put wind energy up on the Tehachapi on the 

            9    Hanson Ranch that makes your head spin.  Why are we 

           10    fiddling around with Johnson Valley?  It makes absolutely 

           11    no sense.  

           12             There are other alternative.  And I hope this 

           13    Council takes a strong position.  Enough is enough.  We 

           14    have gone through the planning system.  Why does the public 

           15    have to give up because of National Energy Policy.  There 

           16    are other alternatives that can be used.  It should not be 

           17    on our back.  

           18             I would like to add on the document I passed on to 

           19    you, CORVA and California Four-Wheel Drive are not taking 

           20    part in anything that is going to take place on Fry 

           21    Mountain.  They are totally opposed to any mitigation that 

           22    is being worked on right now, which is totally ludicrous.  

           23    We want to preserve our recreational opportunities.  

           24             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Next speaker?  

           25             MR. HILLIER:  Wow, Ed, you are a tough act to 

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            1    follow.  Ed and I go way back.  

            2             Gerry Hillier, and I am here today representing     

            3    San Bernardino County, for which I am a consultant.  

            4    Actually, I didn't have any comment.  Our Supervisor,   

            5    Brad Mitzelfeldt, has spoken on several occasions relative 

            6    to the alternative energy and we will be commenting 

            7    directly.           

            8              There were two clarifying questions I wanted to 

            9    ask, though.  One, you had the slide up relative to the 368 

           10    Corridors and I thought I heard you say that the comments 

           11    on the draft were due September 15.  It was my 

           12    understanding that the scoping comments were July 15 and 

           13    that they were going to issue a draft sometime during the 

           14    fall.  And there was not yet a draft on the street on that.  

           15             Did I hear you wrong or did you get the dates 

           16    wrong?  

           17             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Why don't we get your questions 

           18    and comments and then again we will have staff response.  

           19             MR. HILLIER:  And the second question was to you, 

           20    Don.  You had said that solar was not taxable.  Is that 

           21    specific state law that excludes solar, because it was my 

           22    understanding that at least a capital improvement on public 

           23    lands like a microwave tower or something like that could 

           24    be taxed as property, even though it was located on Federal 

           25    lands.  

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            1             MEMBER MABEN:  I will wait to answer.

            2             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Any more public comments, 

            3    questions?  Okay.  Seeing none, close the comment period.  

            4             Does staff want to respond?

            5             MEMBER MABEN:  Mr. Chairman, I would like to 

            6    respond to the last question since it was directed at me.  

            7             Solar is totally exempt, whether it be on private 

            8    property or public lands, from property tax.  And that 

            9    means not only the mirrors, but all of the administrative 

           10    buildings, everything that goes with project.  

           11             The only thing that solar has to pay is if County, 

           12    they have to pay the one percent property tax on the 

           13    purchase of the land, and that's it.  

           14             Wind industry pays property taxes whether they own 

           15    the land or just the equipment on public land, they end up 

           16    paying property tax.  For the County standpoint, that's a 

           17    benefit.  Solar is not.  

           18             MR. HILLIER:  Thank you for your research on that.    

           19             MS. SHUMWAY:  Dinah Shumway.  To Ed's question, 

           20    going back to my previous comments about solar in general, 

           21    one of the reasons that your private solar companies don't 

           22    want to go to your Hanson Ranch, who has all the wind 

           23    stuff, is because it would be a private party agreement and 

           24    your friend at Hanson would ask for money up front, just as 

           25    any reasonable property owner would do for the use and cash 

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            1    generation of the use of their land for any purpose 

            2    whatsoever.  

            3             Unfortunately, at lease in this case, it seems 

            4    that the public is not reaping adequate benefits, even in 

            5    planning, from the use of our lands to generate what would 

            6    hopefully be energy.  And as I said, and I hope I am on 

            7    record for, I am not convinced that these would be 

            8    companies that reasonable people would invest in.  

            9             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Alan, do you want to respond to 

           10    the question regarding timing?  

           11             MR. STEIN:  Yes.  Alan Stein.  Geary, the comment 

           12    period on the solar energy programmatic ended July 15.  The 

           13    comment period on the geothermal extends into September, 

           14    but the scoping period for the solar ended July 15.  

           15             MEMBER HUND:  What about the DOV corridor study?  

           16    That was the one that had the 368 corridors on it.  

           17             MR. STEIN:  The draft EIS is out, comments are 

           18    done on that, and they are in the process of revising it 

           19    and preparing a final.  

           20             MEMBER HUND:  So that September 15 date, that date 

           21    is all long past?  

           22             MR. STEIN:  Yeah.  

           23             MEMBER HUND:  Okay.  Thank you.  

           24             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Well, it seems to me that we have 

           25    a number of concerns as a Council regarding the proposal.  

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            1    And Steve and I had a little side bar, and I think it's a 

            2    good idea that we possibly establish maybe a subcommittee 

            3    that drafts a letter to the Department of the Interior, the 

            4    State Director, whomever, listing the concerns of the 

            5    Council specifically on this particular issue.  

            6             And that's a suggestion I am making, and I would 

            7    like to get your feedback.  

            8             MEMBER JOHNSTON:  Great idea.  

            9             MEMBER HUND:  Ron and I had the same conversation.   

           10             MEMBER SALL:  I agree with that.  I want to make a 

           11    comment.  AB-811 recently passed and that provides 

           12    opportunities for low-cost loans for energy efficient 

           13    improvements on your home, including PV solar panels, 

           14    air-conditioning, et cetera, so that just recently passed a 

           15    week or so ago.  And that should help County and -- 

           16             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  That was originated with the City 

           17    of Palm Desert?  

           18             MEMBER SALL:  Uh-huh.  It did.

           19             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  So how would Council like to do 

           20    this?  Do we have a protocol for doing such a thing in the 

           21    past?  

           22             MR. BORCHARD:  We have done a letter like that in 

           23    the past.  I think a small group of members agreed to 

           24    draft.  

           25              I suggest that those members be current members 

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            1    because, again, I just got word that the Secretary 

            2    apologizes for the nine-month delay in signing your 

            3    letters, but he will sign them on Monday.  And didn't do us 

            4    any favors.  It will be signed on Monday and faxed out.  So 

            5    we are still operating as they are volunteers.  So if you 

            6    are going to do some kind of action like that, I suggest it 

            7    be with -- 

            8              MEMBER MABEN:  Mr. Chairman, in the past, we have 

            9    had the committee draft it and e-mail it out to all 

           10    members, so if we get permanent committee members, 

           11    everybody will be able to participate.

           12             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Well, I need three volunteers.  

           13    We need like Thomas Jefferson -- 

           14             MEMBER JOHNSTON:  Geary and I will volunteer.      

           15             MEMBER HUND:  Would you be willing to give us 

           16    feedback from members of the public?  

           17             MEMBER SALL:  Yes.

           18             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Is that -- 

           19             MR. SCHILLER:  I am not actually sure how you are 

           20    proposing this to work.  We all represent different 

           21    interests.

           22             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Right.

           23             MEMBER SCHILLER:  I am sure I will have some 

           24    concern.  So I am just curious -- 

           25             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  What we are proposing is that 

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            1    someone has to draft the letter.  We would work on the 

            2    letter and e-mail it in draft form to each Member of 

            3    Council for comments.  And hopefully before our next 

            4    meeting we will have a letter that everybody can agree to.  

            5             When I have seen these letters happen in the past, 

            6    briefer to the point is better; therefore, there is less 

            7    dialogue between parties.

            8             MEMBER SCHILLER:  Sure.

            9             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Is that a consensus?  

           10             MEMBER JOHNSTON:  Yes.  

           11             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  I would also like to suggest 

           12    before we wrap up is that staff -- based on the comments 

           13    made earlier on public comments, that the staff    

           14    basically draft a -- I like the term "institutionalized 

           15    public comment guidelines" for our agendas in the future so 

           16    future Chairmen and Councils have a record of how to 

           17    operate.  

           18             MEMBER MABEN:  It might be if we can get it down 

           19    to a short sweet paragraph just on the bottom of our 

           20    agenda.

           21             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  Yes.  Something bold and noted 

           22    implied.  That would be great.  

           23             Any other closing comments?  

           24             I will entertain the motion to adjourn.  

           25             MEMBER MABEN:  So moved.  

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            1             MEMBER RUDNICK:  Second.

            2             CHAIRMAN DAVIS:  All in favor?  Motion carries.

            3             

            4                 (Proceedings ended at 5:09 p.m.)

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