UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
       NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD
                 WASHINGTON, D.C.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  x
                                     :
PUBLIC HEARING IN THE MATTER OF:     :
                                     :  No. DCA
COLLISION AND DERAILMENT OF          :  99-MR-003
AMTRAK 59, THE CITY OF NEW ORLEANS,  :
WITH AN EASTBOUND TRACTOR,           :  Volume I
SEMI-TRAILER AT RAILROAD/HIGHWAY     :
GRADE CROSSING NEAR BOURBONNAIS,     :  Day I
ILLINOIS ON MARCH 15, 1999           :
                                     :
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  x
                        Monday, September 13, 1999
                        The Guildhall
                        The Ambassador West Hotel
                        The Wyndham Grand Hotel
                        Chicago, Illinois
          The Public Hearing in the above-entitled
matter was convened, at the Ambassador West Hotel, The
Guildhall, 1300 North State Parkway, Chicago, Illinois,
pursuant to notice, at 9:00 a.m., Before the Board of
Inquiry of the National Transportation Safety Board.
APPEARANCES:
     THE BOARD OF INQUIRY:
          GEORGE W. BLACK, JR., Chairman
          National Transportation Safety Board
          JAMES S. DUNN,
          Hearing Officer
          ROBERT C. LAUBY, Director
          Office of Railroad Safety
          BARRY SWEEDLER, Director
          Office of Safety Recommendations and
          Accomplishments
          CLAUDE HARRIS, Deputy Director
          Office of Highway Safety
APPEARANCES: (Continued)
     THE TECHNICAL PANEL:
          TED TURPIN, Operations Specialist
          Office of Railroad Safety
          DR. GERALD D. WEEKS, Chief
          Human Factors Division
          Office of Railroad Safety
          RICHARD DOWNS, Survival Factors
          Specialist, Office of Railroad Safety
          RUBEN PAYAN, Signal Specialist
          Office of Railroad Safety
          BURT SIMON, Human Performance Specialist
          Office of Highway Safety
          BYRD RABY, Heavy Vehicle Specialist,
          Office of Highway Safety
          THOMAS JACKY, Event Recorder Specialist
          Office of Research and Engineering
          MIRIAM KLOEPPEL, Transportation Research
          Analyst, Office of Research and
          Engineering
     PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER
          TERRY WILLIAMS
APPEARANCES (Continued):
     ADMINISTRATIVE AND TECHNICAL SUPPORT
          EVELYN HEMINGWAY
     PARTIES TO THE HEARING:
     NATIONAL RAILROAD PASSENGER CORPORATION
       (AMTRAK):
          LEE W. BULLOCK, President, Amtrak
            Intercity
          TRAVIS HINTON, Chief Operating Officer,
	  Amtrak Intercity
          CHRIS BLACK, Director, Public Affairs
          T. MICHAEL KERRINE, Associate General
            Counsel, Tort Litigation
          GEORGE BINNS, General Manager,
		  Standards and Compliance
          PETER HALL, Director of Safety, Amtrak
            Intercity
          MARK MEANA, Director of Safety,
		  Corporate
          CLAYTON BROWN, Assistant Vice-President,
            Corporate Operations
     CANADIAN NATIONAL/ILLINOIS CENTRAL RAILROAD:
          ED HARRIS, Vice-President,
            Midwest Division
          JOHN PRENDERGAST, Risk Manager
          CHARLES WEBSTER, General Counsel, U.S.
          JOHN SHARKEY, General Manager,
            Communications and Signals
APPEARANCES (Continued)
     CANADIAN NATIONAL/ILLINOIS CENTRAL RAILROAD:
          (Continued)
          MYLES TOBIN, Vice-President,
            U.S. Legal Affairs
          BOB KEENE
     FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION:
          DAVID BLACKMORE, Deputy Regional
            Administrator
          ALLEN HALLSTROM, Principle Inspector,
            Indianapolis
          JEFF THOMAS, Signal and
            Train Control Inspector, Chicago
          ROBERT MYERS, Assistant
            Grade Crossing and Trespass Manager,
            Chicago
          PATTY SMITH, Grade Crossing
            and Trespass Manager, Chicago
     FEDERAL HIGHWAY ADMINISTRATION:
          RUDY UMBS, Chief, Safety Design Division
     ILLINOIS COMMERCE COMMISSION:
          MICHAEL STEAD, Rail Safety Program
            Administrator
          JOHN BLAIR, Railroad Safety Specialist
          STAN MILEWSKI, Railroad Safety
            Specialist
          DON RICHARDSON, Railroad Safety
             Specialist, State Coordinator,
             Illinois Operation Lifesaver
     BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS:
          WILLIAM C. WALPERT, Vice-President
          JOHN P. TOLMAN, Special Representative,
            International Division
          LARRY JAMES, Coordinator,
            Education and Training Department
APPEARANCES: (Continued)
          CARL FIELDS, Safety Task
            Force
          TOM O'BRIEN
     UNITED TRANSPORTATION UNION:
          THOMAS P. DWYER III, Director
     MELCO TRANSFER, INC.:
          MELVIN MARSHALL
          JUDY MARSHALL
          BRAD PURCELL, Counsel for Melco
            Transfer, Inc.
                 C O N T E N T S
                                              PAGE
Opening Remarks and Introductions              09
Sworn Testimony of Ted Turpin                  20
Sworn Testimony of Byrd Raby                   27
Sworn Testimony of Angel R. Flores             38
  Examination by the Technical Panel           39
  Examination by the Canadian
    National/Illinois Central Railroad         49
  Examination by the Illinois Commerce
    Commission                                 52
  Examination by the Brotherhood of
    Locomotive Engineers                       53
  Examination by the United Transportation
    Union                                      56
  Examination by the Board of Inquiry          58
Sworn Testimony of Troy Schultz                66
  Examination by the Technical Panel           66
  Examination by the Federal Highway
    Administration                             83
  Examination by the Brotherhood of
    Locomotive Engineers                       84
  Examination by Melco Transfer, Inc.          86
  Examination by Amtrak                        87
  Examination by the Board of Inquiry          93
Sworn Testimony of Cathi S. Oliver            107
  Examination by the Technical Panel          108
  Examination by the Brotherhood of
    Locomotive Engineers                      123
  Examination by Amtrak                       124
  Examination by the Board of Inquiry         125
  Further Examination by the Technical Panel  132
Sworn Testimony of Aubrey Q. Fosburgh III     135
  Examination by the Technical Panel          135
  Examination by the Illinois Commerce
    Commission                                151
  Examination by the Brotherhood of
    Locomotive Engineers                      152
  Examination by Canadian
    National/Illinois Central Railroad        153
           C O N T E N T S (Continued)
                                              PAGE
Sworn Testimony of Aubrey Q. Fosburgh III
    (Continued)
  Examination by the Federal Highway
    Administration                            156
  Examination by the Board of Inquiry         156
  Further Examination by the Brotherhood
    of Locomotive Engineers                   165
  Further Examination by the Illinois
    Commerce Commission                       167
  Further Examination by the
    Board of Inquiry                          168
Sworn Testimony of Luis Nieves                170
  Examination by the Technical Panel          171
  Examination by the Brotherhood of
    Locomotive Engineers                      195
  Examination by the United Transportation
    Union                                     196
  Examination by Melco Transfer, Inc.         197
  Examination by Canadian
    National/Illinois Central Railroad        199
  Examination by the Illinois Commerce
    Commission                                201
  Examination by the Board of Inquiry         204
  Further Examination by Melco
    Transfer, Inc.                            207
  Further Examination by the Illinois
    Commerce Commission                       207
Adjournment                                   210
                 E X H I B I T S
NUMBER                                  IDENTIFIED
  2A  Photo - Aerial View of Accident       20
  2B  Photo - Close-up Aerial View of
        Accident                            20
  2D  Photo - Aerial View of McKnight
        Road                               145
  2E  Photo - Broken East Gate             156
           E X H I B I T S (Continued)
NUMBER                                  IDENTIFIED
  2F  Photo - East Gate Looking East
        With Broken Tip                    156
  2H  Left Wheel Assembly Rear Axle of
        Semi-trailer                        33
  2I  Left Wheel Assembly Front Axle of
        Semi-trailer                        33
  2J  Photo - Right Wheel Assembly
        Front Axle of Semi-trailer          33
  2K  Photo - Accident Tractor with
        Exemplar Semi-trailer and Cargo     32
  2L  Photo - Beginning of Scrub Mark
        at Site                             29
  2M  Diagram - Accident Scene              31
  2U  Plan View, Point of Collision         20
  2W  Photo - Damage to Lead Locomotive
        Amtrak Train No. 59                 34
  5A  Photo - Amtrak Fare Collection
        Hand-held Device                    20
              P R O C E E D I N G S
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  This public hearing has been
convened by the National Transportation Safety Board
under the authority of Section 304(b) of the
Independent Safety Board Act of 1974.
          The hearing is part of the Safety Board's
investigation of the accident involving the collision
of Amtrak Train Number 59, the City of New Orleans,
with an eastbound semi-tractor trailer at a railroad
highway grade crossing near Bourbonnais, Illinois on
the 15th of March 1999.
          As a result of the collision, 11 passengers
were fatally injured, and 122 passengers and crew
members sustained serious or minor injuries.  The truck
driver sustained minor injuries.  Estimated damages
exceeded $14 million.
          I am George Black, a Member of the National
Transportation Safety Board and Chairman of these
proceedings.  The other members of the Board of Inquiry
from the National Transportation Safety Board in
Washington are, on my far left, Mr. James S. Dunn, who
is the Hearing Officer and the Investigator in Charge
of the accident.
          To my left is Mr. Robert C. Lauby, Director
of the Office of Railroad Safety.  To my right is Mr.
Claude Harris, Deputy Director of the Office of Highway
Safety, and on the right end of the panel, here on my
right, is Mr. Barry Sweedler, Director of the Office of
Safety Recommendations and Accomplishments.
          The action mentioned above is being
investigated by the National Transportation Safety
Board.  We have been assisted in the investigation of
this accident by representatives of the parties to this
hearing.
          The purpose of this hearing to extend our
field investigation, tests, and interviews and to
develop a factual record for determining the probable
cause of the accident; two, to report on the facts,
conditions, and circumstances collected so far related
to this accident; and three, to assist the National
Transportation Safety Board in making recommendations
to prevent similar accidents from occurring.
          We are planning on concluding this hearing on
Wednesday.  This hearing is an administrative
fact-finding procedure with no adverse interests and no
adverse parties.  It is not our purpose to assign blame
or to determine legal rights and/or the liabilities of
persons or organizations, and the Safety Board will not
make any attempt to do so.  Matters directly related to
such rights and liabilities will be excluded from these
proceedings.
          Pursuant to the Safety Board rules, a
prehearing conference was held in Washington, D.C. last
week.  The prehearing conference was attended by the
Members of the Board of Inquiry; the members of the
technical panel, and the parties to the hearing.
          The parties to the hearing, the areas in
which they are to be questioned, and the issues to be
addressed were discussed and agreed upon by the
participants.  In addition, exhibits to be introduced
into evidence were identified.
          Copies of the witness list developed for this
hearing have been made available.  Mr. Terry Williams,
a Safety Board Public Affairs Officer, is here to
assist the Press and the public, and he can furnish a
copy of the witness list and provide access to
exhibits.  Mr. Williams is assisted by Mr. Phil Frame,
also of Public Affairs.
          I would say I noticed part of the media
trying to videotape the exhibits on the placards in the
outer office here.  They are also available on compact
disk in Power Point format.
          The docket containing the exhibits, the
transcript of testimony that will be taken, and all
other related materials will be available for
inspection at the Safety Board's Washington D.C.
Headquarters.
          Copies of the transcripts, exhibits, and
photographs introduced during this hearing may be
obtained for a fee from the court reporter.
          The conduct of this hearing will be governed
by the Safety Board's Rules of Practice.  Under these
rules, the witness will be questioned first by the
technical panel, then by the spokesperson for each
party, and finally by the Board of Inquiry.
          Cross-examination in a legal sense will not
be permitted.  After initial questioning, I may allow a
second round for any follow-up questions and/or
clarifications.  However, I expect the follow-up
questions to be limited to those necessary to clarify
the record or to address any new matter that has been
raised.
          The formal issues which will be addressed in
the public hearing and to which testimony and
questioning will be limited are as follows:  One, the
effectiveness and reliability of current active
railroad grade crossing warning devices; two, State,
Federal, and Amtrak safety oversight programs; three,
the effects of heavy truck traffic volume on the safety
of grade crossings; and four, new technologies and
grade crossing safety.
          Although the circumstances of this accident
have generated some concern about the status of the
truck driver's commercial driver's license at the time
of the accident, the Safety Board has chosen to address
this issue and others related to it in a future forum.
          A public hearing scheduled for early next
year concerning the crash of a motorcoach in New
Orleans, Louisiana on May 5, 1999, the Mother's Day
accident which claimed the lives of 22 persons, will
address numerous issues relating to commercial drivers
licensing at the state and Federal levels.
          The Safety Board has asked the truck driver
involved in this accident to appear as a witness at
this hearing, but he declined on advice of his
attorney.  However, the previous interviews with the
truck driver by the Safety Board are a part of the
public docket.
          The parties to this hearing will have the
opportunity to submit proposed findings of facts,
conclusions, and recommendations to the Board of
Inquiry after the close of the hearing.
          I strongly encourage the parties to make use
of this opportunity.  If you decide to submit proposed
findings, conclusions, and/or recommendations, submit
them to the Investigator in Charge, Mr. J.S. Dunn, at
the National Transportation Safety Board within 60 days
after the close of this hearing.  You should also send
copies of any such submissions to each of the other
parties.  If you need the addresses, we will provide
them.
          Any proposals will be made part of the public
docket of the investigation and will receive careful
consideration during the Safety Board's analysis of
evidence in preparation for the final report on this
accident.
          At this time, I would like to introduce the
Members of the Safety Board's Technical Panel.  Mr. Ted
Turpin is an Operations Specialist, Office of Railroad
Safety.  He is at the table here.
          Dr. Gerald Weeks, Chief, Human Factors
Division, Office of Railroad Safety, is probably
somewhere in the back.  Mr. Burt Simon, Human
Performance Specialist, Office of Railroad Safety, is
also in the back.
          Mr. Ruben Payan, Signal Specialist, Office of
Railroad Safety, is also in the back.  Mr. Richard
Downs, Survival Factors Specialist, Office of Railroad
Safety is next to Ruben.  Mr. Burt Raby, Highway Heavy
Vehicle Specialist, Office of Highway Safety, is at the
witness table.
          Ms. Miriam Kloeppel, Transportation Research
Analyst, Office of Research and Engineering, is also in
the back; and Mr. Thomas Jacky, Event Recorder
Specialist, Office of Research and Engineering, is in
the rear next to the window.
          Also present are Mr. Terry Williams, as I
mentioned earlier, from the Safety Board's Office of
Public Affairs; and Ms. Evelyn Hemingway, who is over
here next to the witness panel, is from the Office of
Railroad Safety to offer administrative assistance.
          I would also like to recognize, first of all,
the families of some of the victims of this tragedy who
are seated to my left at the tables in the front.  We
are glad they could be here today to witness this
hearing.
          Also present here today is a Past Chairman of
the National Transportation Safety Board.  Mr. Jim
Burnett (phonetic) is observing today.  We also have
Mr. Jamie Finch (phonetic), in the audience who is the
Director of Government, Public, and Family Affairs for
the Safety Board; Ms. Betty Scott (phonetic), who is
the Deputy Director of that organization for Government
Affairs.
          We have Mr. Dwight Foster, who is the Deputy
Director of the Office of Railroad Safety somewhere
here; Ms. Deb Smith (phonetic), who is the Special
Assistant to Chairman Jim Hall.  We have Carolyn Dargan
(phonetic), as the Conference Planning Specialist who
has made this thing operate.  She is somewhere around.
          Ms. Candy Venes (phonetic), who is my
Confidential Assistant, is also helping Carolyn with
the event, and Anton Downs (phonetic), is offering
technical services to our operation here today.
          I will now call on the parties to the hearing
and ask each spokesperson to stand and identify
themselves, their affiliation with the party they
represent, and introduce those other persons at their
party's table.
          The National Railroad Passenger Corporation,
Amtrak?
          MR. BULLOCK:  Lee Bullock, President of
Amtrak Intercity.
          MR. HINTON:  Travis Hinton, Chief Operating
Officer, Amtrak Intercity.
          MR. BLACK:  Chris Black, Director of Public
Affairs.
          MR. KERRINE:  Michael Kerrine, Associate
General Counsel, Amtrak.
          MR. BINNS:  George Binns, General Manager,
Standards and Compliance.
          MR. HALL:  Peter Hall, Director of Safety,
Amtrak Intercity.
          MR. MEANA:  Mark Meana Director of Safety,
Corporate.
          MR. BROWN:  Clayton Brown, Assistant
Vice-President, Corporate Operations.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you.
          The Canadian National/Illinois Central
Railroad?
          MR. HARRIS:  Ed Harris, Vice-President,
Midwest Division, CNIC.
          MR. PRENDERGAST:  John Prendergast, Risk
Manager.
          MR. WEBSTER:  Charles Webster, General
Counsel, U.S.
          MR. SHARKEY:  John Sharkey, General Manager,
Communications and Signals.
          MR. TOBIN:  Myles Tobin, Vice-President U.S.
Legal Affairs.
          MR. KEENE:  Bob Keene.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  The Federal Railroad
Administration?
          MR. BLACKMORE:  David Blackmore, Deputy
Regional Administrator with FRA in Chicago.
Immediately to my left, I have Allen Hallstrom, who is
a Principle Regional Inspector at Indianapolis.  Next
to him on my farther left is Jeff Thomas, Signal and
Train Control Inspector in Chicago.
          In the far left corner is Bob Myers
(phonetic), who is Assistant Grade Cross and Trespass
Manager in Chicago; and the next one is Patty Smith
(phonetic), who is our Grade Crossing and Trespass
Manager in Chicago.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you, sir.
          I see the Federal Highway Administration is
still trying to get here from Washington I assume.
          The Illinois Commerce Commission?
          MR. STEAD:  My name is Mike Stead, Rail
Safety Program Administrator for the Transportation
Division, Illinois Commerce Commission.
          MR. BLAIR:  John Blair, Railroad Safety
Specialist, Illinois Commerce Commission.
          MR. MILEWSKI:  Stan Milewski, Railroad Safety
Specialist.
          MR. RICHARDSON:  Don Richardson, Railroad
Safety Specialist, State Coordinator, Illinois
Operation Lifesaver.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  The Brotherhood of
Locomotive Engineers?
          MR. WALPERT:  I am William Walpert,
Vice-President, Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers.
On my left, I have John Tolman, who is a Special
Representative and Zone Leader for our Safety Task
Force.  On my right is Larry James (phonetic), who is
the Coordinator of our Education and Training
Department.
          Also, we have here Carl Fields (phonetic),
who assisted in the accident investigation from the
Safety Task Force and Tom O'Brien (phonetic), who also
assisted in the accident investigation.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you, sir.
          United Transportation Union?
          MR. DWYER:  Tom Dwyer, United Transportation
Union, Transportation Safety Team.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Sir, are you the only
representative to UTU?
          MR. DWYER:  Yes, sir.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Melco Transfer?
          MR. MARSHALL:  Melvin Marshall, President of
Melco, and my wife, Judy.  I will let  this man
introduce himself.
          MR. PURCELL:  Counsel for Melco Transfer,
Brad Purcell.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you for your patience
in listening to this what I call boilerplate.  At this
point, the Hearing Officer, Mr. Jim Dunn, will
introduce the exhibits to be used in the hearing.  Then
we will begin calling the witnesses and taking the
testimony.
          MR. DUNN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
          A prehearing conference was held in
Washington, D.C. at Headquarters on September 7th.  At
this prehearing conference, the witness list and all
the exhibits were gone over and agreed to by all the
parties, so I will not go over every exhibit we did at
the prehearing.
          Four exhibits were added to the docket and to
this hearing.  They were Exhibits 2U, 2B, and 2W, and
5A.  Copies of those exhibits have been distributed to
the parties -- they are on your tables -- plus the CD
ROM with the entire docket.  So, I will, at this time,
call the first witness to this hearing.
          Mr. Ted Turpin, would you please stand.
          SWORN TESTIMONY OF TED TURPIN
          MR. DUNN:  Mr. Turpin, who are you employed
by?
          MR. TURPIN:  National Transportation Safety
Board.
          MR. DUNN:  For how long?
          MR. TURPIN:  For three years.
          MR. DUNN:  What are your duties and
responsibilities?
          MR. TURPIN:  I am an Accident Investigator,
and I specialize in Operations.
          MR. DUNN:  Were you the investigator on the
Bourbonnais accident?
          MR. TURPIN:  Yes; I was the Group Chairman
for Operations.
          MR. DUNN:  I understand you have an overview
of the accident for us.
          MR. TURPIN:  That is correct.
          MR. DUNN:  If you would.
          MR. TURPIN:  Good morning, Ladies and
Gentlemen.
          On Monday, March 15, 1999, about 9:47 p.m.
Eastern Daylight Time, a southbound Amtrak Train Number
59, the City of New Orleans, consisting of two
locomotive units and 14 cars derailed when it struck an
eastbound truck tractor semi-trailer at a railroad
highway grade crossing near Bourbonnais, Illinois.
          The accident occurred at McKnight Road where
it crosses the Illinois Central Railroad track about 51
miles south of Chicago.  As a result of the collision,
11 passengers riding in the third car, the sleeping
car, were fatally injured.  Also, 122 passengers and
crew members sustained serious or minor injuries.  The
temperature was 30 degrees, and the skies were clear.
          Train Number 59 departed Chicago three
minutes late at 8:03 p.m. on March 15, 1999.  The
engineer reported that prior to leaving Chicago, he
inspected the headlight and ditch lights.  He said that
they were working properly.  He also said that after
departing Chicago, the ditch lights oscillated properly
at the crossings when he was blowing the horn.
          In addition, he stated he had numerous
opportunities to use the brakes on the train, and they
responded properly.  Just prior to the accident, the
conductor stated that he had conversed by radio with
the engineer about an upcoming 40 mile per hour speed
restriction at mile post 55.6.
          He explained he was walking through the coach
behind the diner when he heard the train brakes apply
in emergency, felt a bump, thought the train
accelerated, and then the car rolled over on its side.
          The assistant conductor stated he was
attempting to reach the operating crew's office in the
dormer transition car.  He said was in the vestibule
when he heard a loud bang.  The car started riding
roughly.  He described it like being on a pony ride,
and then he struck his head against something.
          The engineer stated that as he neared the
McKnight Road crossing, he saw a truck slowly moving
through the crossing.  He said that he blew the train
whistle to warn the truck driver.  He said when he
realized that the truck would not clear the crossing,
he applied the train's brakes.  However, the train
could not stop before hitting the truck.
          The engineer was unable to recall if the
warning lights were functioning at the crossing.  He
also could not recall the position of the gates at the
crossing.
          According to the event recorder in the lead
locomotive, the train was traveling an authorized speed
of 79 miles per hour immediately before the collision.
          The truck had been loaded with 60 feet long
three quarter inch diameter steel reinforcing rods,
sometimes referred to as rebar, at the Birmingham Steel
Company plant near the accident location.
          The truck's gross vehicle weight was 74,800
pounds.  The truck left the plant compound, turned
right on McKnight Road, and traveled about five hundred
feet to the railroad crossing which was protected by
warning lights and gates.
          The truck driver stated he was moving between
15 and 20 miles per hour and had begun traversing the
crossing when the warning lights activated.
          The National Transportation Safety Board's
investigation revealed that the train struck the truck
at its trailer's last axle.  Also after derailing, the
passenger train struck two freight cars that were
parked on an adjacent siding west of the main track.
          The nearest car was a gondola loaded with
bars of steel.  The second car was a covered hopper
loaded with fly ash.  A fire also erupted from ruptured
locomotive diesel fuel tanks.  When the train came to a
stop, the engineer stated that he contacted the
assistant conductor and the engineer with his radio.
          The engineer stated that he was trapped
inside the locomotive.  The assistant conductor said
that he would go help the engineer.  The conductor
remained at the car and helped passengers evacuate.
          The Safety Board was notified of the accident
about 1:30 a.m.  A Safety Board go team was launched
with investigators from Headquarters in Washington,
D.C. and from its regional offices in Los Angeles,
Chicago, and Atlanta.
          The Safety Board was aided in the
investigation by the Federal Railroad Administration,
the Federal Highway Administration, Illinois Commerce
Commission, Amtrak, the Illinois Central Railroad, now
the Canadian National/Illinois Central, the Brotherhood
of Locomotive Engineers, the United Transportation
Union, the Bourbonnais Fire and Rescue, and the state
and local police.
          I will now present a short video.  Some of
the video is of the wreckage soon after the collision.
 Portions contain graphic scenes of the aftermath.
Please do not feel compelled to watch if you believe
this will be disturbing to you.
          (Video Shown.)
          MR. TURPIN:  This opening scene was taken
approximately an hour after the collision.  These shots
are at ground level from the southwest.  As the camera
moves to the left, it shows the Birmingham Steel
Company plant and the staging area for the emergency
response.
          Next is a nighttime aerial view of the
derailment.  Now, the shot is zooming in on the fire
fighters attempting to extinguish the fire.  Again, we
see the staging area for the emergency responders.  The
local community responded to the accident with 47
ambulances, 16 tankers, 14 engines, 2 phone units, and
21 technicians.
          Also on the scene were numerous police
officers, doctors, hospital personnel, the Salvation
Army, and the American Red Cross.  Several commendable
individuals from the nearby Birmingham Steel Company,
Simms Metal Company, and close-by private citizens
assisted in the response to the accident.
          Now, the aerial view will move to the north
and show the crossing where the collision occurred.
Zooming in, you can see the truck trailer and where it
came to rest after being struck by the train.
          Here is the view on the following day.  The
cars of the train have been separated to clear McKnight
Road.
          This is a final scene taken several days
later.  It depicts an overview from the same direction
the train was traveling.  Note the grain elevators to
the right and the parked railroad cars beside the main
track, and finally, the McKnight Road crossing.
          This concludes my presentation.  I will turn
the proceeding back over to Mr. Dunn.
          MR. DUNN:  Thank you very much, Mr. Turpin.
          (Witness excused.)
          MR. DUNN:  It is about 9:30 a.m., and the
National Transportation Safety Board calls its next
witness, Mr. Byrd Raby.
         SWORN TESTIMONY OF MR. BYRD RABY
          MR. DUNN:  Mr. Raby, for the record would you
please state and spell your entire name.
          MR. RABY:  Byrd Raby; B-y-r-d, R-a-b-y.
          MR. DUNN:  Mr. Raby, are you also employed by
the National Transportation Safety Board?
          MR. RABY:  Yes, I am.
          MR. DUNN:  For how long?
          MR. RABY:  Fourteen years.
          MR. DUNN:  What are your duties and
responsibilities?
          MR. RABY:  I work in the Office of Highway
Safety.  I am a Highway Accident Investigator
Specialist for Heavy Vehicles.
          MR. DUNN:  Were you also on the Bourbonnais
accident?
          MR. RABY:  Yes, I was.
          I was Chairman of the Highway Heavy Vehicle
Group.
          MR. DUNN:  I understand you also have an
opening statement.
          MR. RABY:  Yes, I do.
          MR. DUNN:  Would you proceed.
          MR. RABY:  The scene of the accident where
the City of New Orleans collided with a tractor
semi-trailer on March 15, 1999 at the highway railroad
grade crossing of McKnight Road and the Illinois
Central tracks was documented by the NTSB Highway
Factors Group from March 16th to March 19th, 1999.
          Documentation consists of measurements and
physical characteristics of the crossing and highway
approach, the marks left by the truck and the point of
final rest of the truck.  In addition, the Vehicle
Factors Group examined the mechanical condition of the
truck, collision evidence on the truck, and collision
evidence on the front of the Amtrak locomotive, the
lead locomotive.
          The highway evidence is documented in the
Highway Factors facts report located in the exhibit
book under the Tab 3(b).  The vehicle evidence is
documented in the Vehicle Group facts report, which is
not part of the exhibit book.  However, it is available
in the public docket.
          I will now present the Highway and Vehicle
exhibits for this hearing.  The first is Exhibit 2A.
This is an aerial view of the accident.  On the
photograph, the tracks are aligned horizontally running
left to right, north being to the right of the
photograph.
          McKnight Road is aligned vertically, west
being the top of the photograph, and the road runs east
and west.  The train was traveling southbound on the
tracks, and the semi-trailer was going eastbound on
McKnight Road.
          In the upper left corner is the steel plant
from which the accident truck had exited shortly before
the accident.  The driver stopped at the scales.  The
scale house is located here (indicating).  You can see
the trucks lined up and coming across the scales in
this particular photograph.
          After being weighed, the truck comes into the
parking lot here (indicating).  Sometimes, they come
out the exit in this way, or if they have room, they
can swing around in here, and they secure the load and
tarp it before proceeding.
          Then the trucks leave the exit and come down
McKnight Road and cross the tracks on to the main
highway just beyond the tracks here.  The collision
occurred at the intersection of McKnight Road and the
railroad tracks located here (indicating).
          The next exhibit is Exhibit 2L.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Raby?
          MR. RABY:  Yes, sir?
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Let me ask a clarification
question:  This truck did not make that loop through
the yard though, did it?
          MR. RABY:  Yes.
          They had to secure the load.  When a truck
comes into the plant, they come in here (indicating).
They enter the parking lot, and they announce on their
CB radio to the scale house operator that they are
there.
          The scale house calls into the main office of
the plant and informs them the truck is there for
delivery.  When they are ready for them to load, then
the scale house notifies the truck.  The truck comes
in, crosses the scales, weighs the truck, goes in, they
load it, and he comes back out and weighs again so they
can get the weight of the steel.
          Then he parks in this lot, and he has to
secure the load.  They don't secure the load in the
plant.  As I said, depending on the amount of activity
here, generally, they can swing inside the parking lot,
make a loop in there and park.
          Some of them back over here (indicating).
They pull around back in here and secure the loads.
This is the entrance to the parking lot, and this is
the exit.  They are marked.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Okay.
          MR. RABY:  The next is 2L.
          This photograph was taken by the Bureau of
Crime Scene Services of the Illinois State Police.  It
shows the tire marks attributed to a set of tires on
the forward axle of the trailer.  I know the photograph
is not that well, but this break in the crossing here
is the center line, about the center line of McKnight
Road.  This would be the eastbound lane.  This would be
the westbound lane here.
          Right here is where the tire marks start to
show up just to the north of the center line of
McKnight Road, and they continue across with a little
bit of zigzagging until they get here.  There is
another tire mark here and a tire mark here, and there
is a third one over here on the rail itself.  This
would be the number four axle of the tractor
semi-trailer.
          The next exhibit will be 2M.  This is a
graphic that makes it a little easier to see the
crossing.  It is based on observations and measurements
and the police photographs as the ones just previously
seen.
          As you can see, there is the westbound lane
of McKnight Road.  The center line is depicted there,
and here, these are the gates.  This is the east gate.
 This would be the west gate, the main line track.
This is the siding track.
          The photograph previously shows that the tire
marks start right about here just past that joint in
the crossing and continue across the track and end
about here, and these are the other three scrub marks
we found on the track.
          The next exhibit will be 2K.  This is a
photograph of the actual tractor.  That is the actual
accident tractor connected to an exemplary semi-trailer
loaded with the same type and approximate weight load
of steel that was used on the accident semi-trailer.
          This semi-trailer was furnished to us by the
carrier, which is the same manufacturer and model as
the accident trailer, and the steel was furnished by
the steel plant and loaded in the same configuration as
best they can recall of the accident truck.
          For clarification to the hearing, you may
hear the axles referred to as the front axle of the
trailer or the rear axle of the trailer.  However, this
is a five axle rig, so we also give a number to the
axles.  Number one, of course, being the front two,
three, four, and five (indicating).
          So, you could hear these axles referred to as
the front axle of the trailer or the number four axle
just for clarification.
          On this vehicle, the distance between these
two axles is ten feet, and the overall length from the
front bumper of the tractor to the end of the load
hanging out here is approximately 77 feet that whole
rig.
          The next exhibit is 2H.  This is a photograph
of the left wheel assembly of the rear axle of the
accident trailer or axle number five.  Note that the
tire, of course, is deflated, and the rim has severe
impact damage all around it.  The center hose is torn
lose.  This is the only wheel on the truck that has
this type of damage.
          The next exhibit is 2I.  This would be the
left forward axle or axle number four, the left wheel
of the accident semi-trailer at its final resting
position at the scene.  The interesting thing to look
at here are these imprints on the trailer tire and some
scrape marks.
          They run diagonally across the tread.  They
are at approximately 90 degree angles, the scrape marks
too.  That is axle number four, the left wheel assembly
of axle number four, the front axle of the trailer.
          The next exhibit will be 2J.  This would be
the right wheel assembly of that same axle and its
final resting position.  Note there are no scrape marks
on this set of tires.  This item here is mud.  That is
mud that was splashed on the tires.  Those are not
scrape marks.
          I should note that on this actual assembly,
the spring brakes -- that is the rubber air ride system
there.  This is the front train and the truss bar, but
the brakes on this particular axle are equipped with
the required spring power parking brake.
          The spring is held compressed by air, so if
there is ever a loss of air pressure, the mechanical
forces of the spring apply the brakes.  In this case,
as soon as the truck was hit, air lines were ruptured,
there was a loss of air pressure, and these brakes were
applied.  So, these wheels came to pretty much of a
stop right at the accident.  They didn't sit there and
roll around or anything.
          The last exhibit would be 2W.  These are
pictures of the front lead locomotive after it was
righted and sitting back up on the tracks during the
recovery process.  I realize this a photograph you
cannot see that well, but what it depicts is, it shows
here in the front here, the coupling is right here
(indicating), the coupling unit.
          Just above that is the cowling of the front
of the locomotive.  When you see the actual photograph,
you will see similar to what you see here.  You will
see the marks which resemble the marking of the rebar
print on it.
          They come across the front, around the
corner, and down the side.  It is a distance of ten
feet from the center of the train where the coupling
is, around this corner down to where the rebar stops.
The measurement from the back of the trailer from the
end of the rebar to the center of axle number five is
ten feet.
          This photograph here is right there
(indicating).  It is a close-up of that area right
there, that little separation of the front cowling.  It
shows the marks, the little rib-looking marks of the
rebar.
          In my report, I have close-ups of this corner
where you can see the photographs show that where those
marks wrap around the corner, there is bluing in the
indentures which would indicate heat.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Raby, would you tell
everybody what rebar is.
          MR. RABY:  Yes.
          Rebar is, I guess, the acronym for steel
concrete reinforcing bar.  They are the bars used in
concrete anywhere, but in this particular case, this
rebar was probably used in construction.  It is of
rather large diameter, but it is the steel placed in
new concrete to reinforce it.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  These ran the entire length
of the truck?  They were 60 feet long?
          MR. RABY:  Sixty feet long.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  They have little notches on
them so they will dig into the concrete and hold.  That
is what produced the little dots that are on the
picture.
          MR. RABY:  This is factual, but you are
correct.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  I understand.
          MR. RABY:  That completes my presentation,
Mr. Dunn.
          MR. DUNN:  Thank you very much, Mr. Raby.  I
will turn it back to the Chairman who wants to go out
to the parties to see if they have questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Let's start in the order
they were introduced, and then I will rotate the order.
          Another thing we might do, Carolyn, you
might, since a couple of the parties are at back
tables, we might rotate the party locations over the
two or three days so we will give everybody a chance to
be on the front row here.  You can take care of that.
          Amtrak first.
          MR. BULLOCK:  We have no questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Canadian National/Illinois
Central?
          MR. ED HARRIS:  We have no questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Federal Railroad?
          MR. BLACKMORE:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Federal Highway has no
questions because they are not here.
          ICC?
          MR. STEAD:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  The Federal Highway has
arrived.  Rudy, your table is over here (indicating).
We were holding it for you.
          Do you have any questions, Rudy?
          MR. UMBS:  No, I don't.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Why don't you introduce
yourself.
          MR. UMBS:  I am Rudy Umbs with the Federal
Highway Administration.  I am Chief of the Safety
Design Division.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  ICC?
          MR. STEAD:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  The BLE?
          MR. WALPERT:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  UTU?
          MR. DWYER:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Melco?
          MR. MARSHALL:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you.
          MR. DUNN:  Thank you very much.  You may step
down.
          (Witness excused.)
          MR. DUNN:  The National Transportation Safety
Board calls as its next witness Angel R. Flores.
       SWORN TESTIMONY OF ANGEL R. FLORES,
          MR. DUNN:  Thank you very much.  The time is
9:45.
          Mr. Flores, for the record, would you please
state and spell your full name.
          MR. FLORES:  My name is Angel R. Flores,
A-n-g-e-l, R, and then F-l-o-r-e-s.
          MR. DUNN:  Who do you have with you today?
          MR. FLORES:  Mr. Scott Wright, my local union
representative.
          MR. DUNN:  Mr. Wright, would you please spell
your full name for us.
          MR. WRIGHT:  Scott, S-c-o-t-t; W-r-i-g-h-t.
          MR. DUNN:  Thank you.
          Mr. Flores, who are you employed by?
          MR. FLORES:  National Transportation
Passenger Service, Amtrak.
          MR. DUNN:  What is your occupation?
          MR. FLORES:  Locomotive Engineer.
          MR. DUNN:  For about how many years have you
worked as a locomotive engineer?
          MR. FLORES:  Almost 25 years.
          MR. DUNN:  Were you the locomotive engineer
on the Amtrak Train 59 on March 15, 1999?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, sir, I was.
          MR. DUNN:  At this time, I will turn the
questioning over to Dr. Gerald Weeks from the Safety
Board.
        EXAMINATION BY THE TECHNICAL PANEL
          MR. WEEKS:  Good morning, Mr. Flores.
          MR. FLORES:  Good morning.
          MR. WEEKS:  Mr. Flores, first, I am going to
have a few background questions about your
certification and work schedule as a locomotive
engineer.  Then I will turn the questioning over to Mr.
Turpin.  You stated you had a long history as a
locomotive engineer.
          My first question is:  Do you recall when you
were last recertified as an engineer?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I can't remember.
          MR. WEEKS:  Are you currently certified as an
engineer?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, sir.
          MR. WEEKS:  What is the length of the
certification period?
          How frequently are you recertified?
          MR. FLORES:  I think every three years.
          MR. WEEKS:  As part of that certification or
otherwise, do you recall when your last vision and
hearing examination was?
          MR. FLORES:  I am not sure, but maybe last
March.
          MR. WEEKS:  In the course of that
examination, did they take any exceptions to your
vision or hearing?
          MR. FLORES:  No.
          MR. WEEKS:  Do you wear corrective eyeglasses
or contact lenses?
          MR. FLORES:  No, sir, I don't.
          MR. WEEKS:  When was the date of your last
complete physical examination prior to March?
          MR. FLORES:  Just before my last birthday.
          MR. WEEKS:  When would that be?
          MR. FLORES:  September 25th.
          MR. WEEKS:  Last fall?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, sir.
          MR. WEEKS:  Again, did they note any
exceptions in the course of your physical examination?
          MR. FLORES:  No.
          MR. WEEKS:  In the three days or so prior to
the accident, did you take any prescription
medications?
          MR. FLORES:  No.
          MR. WEEKS:  In that same time period, three
days prior to the accident, did you take any
over-the-counter medications such as pain relievers or
cold remedies?
          MR. FLORES:  No.
          MR. WEEKS:  Are you qualified on the physical
characteristics of the territory that you were
operating on that March 15th?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, sir, I am.
          MR. WEEKS:  Do you recall the date of your
qualification on that territory or requalification?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I can't remember.
          MR. WEEKS:  Would that have been done in
conjunction with your recertification?
          Do they do that at the same time?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I don't think so.
          I think, you know, the recertification is
conducted at one time, and then the requalification
some other time.
          MR. WEEKS:  How long have you been assigned
to that territory?
          MR. FLORES:  Twelve years.
          MR. WEEKS:  Can you estimate in that period
how many trips or round trips you have made over that
territory, or would it be easy to pick a narrower time
frame, let's say from January to March?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I can't exactly.
          MR. WEEKS:  Can you estimate it on a monthly
or a weekly basis?
          MR. FLORES:  Four days per week probably.
          MR. WEEKS:  On March 15th in the early
morning, were you assigned to Train 58, the Train 58
job north to Chicago?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, I was.
          MR. WEEKS:  Where did you board Train 58?
          MR. FLORES:  I could not hear you.
          MR. WEEKS:  Where did you start that job?
          MR. FLORES:  Carbondale.
          MR. WEEKS:  At about what time did you depart
Carbondale on that early morning of the 15th?
          MR. FLORES:  Well, around 3, between 3:30 and
3:45.
          MR. WEEKS:  When did you arrive in Chicago?
          MR. FLORES:  I was scheduled to arrive
Chicago that day at 9:30, 9:45, and I probably got
there that day about ten, ten something.
          MR. WEEKS:  Between the time you arrived in
Chicago about ten, as you say, in the morning and the
time you reported for duty that evening, would you
describe your activities during the day.
          MR. FLORES:  I really didn't have that much
of activities that particular day.  I went to have
breakfast, and then as I remember, I went back to bed
and rested until it was time for me to go to work.
          MR. WEEKS:  You got off duty and went to
breakfast?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, sir.
          MR. WEEKS:  Do you have lodging facilities?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, we have lodging facilities
in Chicago at the Quality Inn.
          MR. WEEKS:  So, you returned to the Quality
Inn.
          Did you sleep most of the day, or can you
estimate the length of time that you would have rested
or slept?
          MR. FLORES:  I probably slept over eight
hours.
          MR. WEEKS:  What time were you called for
Train 59 that evening?
          MR. FLORES:  I think I was on duty around 7,
7:30.
          MR. WEEKS:  Did you have dinner that evening
before going on duty?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, I did have some dinner at
the station.
          MR. WEEKS:  At the station?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, sir.
          MR. WEEKS:  Those are all the questions I
have at the moment.  I turn it over to Mr. Turpin.
          MR. TURPIN:  Good morning, Mr. Flores.
          MR. FLORES:  Morning.
          MR. TURPIN:  Why don't we just backtrack a
little bit just to somewhat of your career.
          When did you start working with a railroad?
          MR. FLORES:  I started working for the
railroad in 1970 at Santa Fe Railroad.
          MR. TURPIN:  Where was that at?
          MR. FLORES:  Kansas City, Kansas.
          MR. TURPIN:  What were you doing?
          MR. FLORES:  I was working on the section
gang, and eventually, I become a locomotive engineer in
1976.
          MR. TURPIN:  For the Santa Fe?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes.
          I worked from 1976 until the time that I
transferred to Amtrak, which it was 1987.
          MR. TURPIN:  1987?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes.
          MR. TURPIN:  For those years, that was
freight operations?
          MR. FLORES:  Freight, correct.
          MR. TURPIN:  Let's go to March 15th.
          If you would, please describe your trip out
of Chicago.
          MR. FLORES:  Well, the best I remember is
that I reported for duty around 7:30, and I waited
around at the GB Office to get my general orders,
checked the bulletin board to see if there is something
that will affect me that particular day.
          After that, I waited for the conductor to get
the okay and that general orders that I use on my trip
returning from Chicago.  Then I proceeded to check the
entire train, check the engines to see if everything
was working properly.  After doing so, I went back to
the head end and checked with my conductor to tell him
that I was ready to go whenever he was.
          MR. TURPIN:  Did you perform an air test on
the train?
          MR. FLORES:  I performed an air test leaving
Chicago, but I checked that the brakes were checked
before that by checking all the paper work for that
particular train on that day.
          MR. TURPIN:  Was everything working properly?
          MR. FLORES:  Everything was okay.
          MR. TURPIN:  After leaving Chicago, what was
your first stop?
          MR. FLORES:  My first stop was Homewood.
          MR. TURPIN:  Do you recall how long you were
in Homewood?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I can't remember.
          MR. TURPIN:  Did anything special transpire
at Homewood?
          MR. FLORES:  Not that I remember.
          MR. TURPIN:  Do you recall what time you left
Homewood?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I can't.
          MR. TURPIN:  What was the purpose for the
stop at Homewood?
          MR. FLORES:  Well, it is a regular stop.  I
left off some passengers.  So, we stop regular at that
station.
          MR. TURPIN:  Let's move on down towards
McKnight Road.
          If you would, just explain to me, as you
approached Bourbonnais, basically what was going on and
what you recall.
          MR. FLORES:  The only thing I remember is
that approaching that location, I saw a truck on the
crossing moving slowly, and I just started blowing the
horn and started applying the brakes.  After that, I
put the train in emergency, and that is the best I
remember.
          MR. TURPIN:  It has been a while since we
have talked specifically about that crossing.
          Since then, have you recalled?
          Do you know if the lights were flashing or if
the gates were in the down position?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I can't remember.
          MR. TURPIN:  Have you ever had a crossing
accident in the past?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, I have.
          MR. TURPIN:  Could you expand on that and
explain some of those.
          MR. FLORES:  Well, I had an accident a couple
of years back around Mattoon, Illinois, and it involved
a fatality at the crossing.
          MR. TURPIN:  Was that a truck or a car?
          MR. FLORES:  It was a car.
          MR. TURPIN:  Did you place the train in
emergency then?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, sir, I did.
          MR. TURPIN:  Again, you were unable to stop?
          MR. FLORES:  That is correct.
          MR. TURPIN:  Have you had any close calls
where the car or truck was just clear the crossing?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, I have those too.
          MR. TURPIN:  Have you ever placed the train
in emergency in those circumstances?
          MR. FLORES:  I can't remember.
          MR. TURPIN:  This is really hard, and just
give me the way you feel about this.
          How do you decide to put the train in
emergency when there is a vehicle on the crossing?
          MR. FLORES:  Well, this is a judgment call.
Your experience, the time you have worked, will tell
you when to do that, and you do the best you can.
          MR. TURPIN:  Thank you.
          Have you ever considered the Kankakee,
Bourbonnais area as being different than other areas as
far as the crossings?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I never.
          MR. TURPIN:  Are there any particular areas
between Carbondale and Chicago that you are concerned
about as far as crossings or that have more than the
normal near misses?
          MR. FLORES:  Well, no.
          I am concerned about every crossing actually.
          MR. TURPIN:  Thank you.
          As just kind of a general statement, do you
have any suggestions at all, as a locomotive engineer,
as to how you might improve crossings?
          MR. FLORES:  Not at this time.
          I just can't tell you something that
specific.
          MR. TURPIN:  Thank you, Mr. Flores.
          Mr. Dunn, I am done questioning.
          MR. DUNN:  Mr. Chairman?
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  The party, the Canadian
National/Illinois Central Railroad?
          MR. ED HARRIS:  CNIC, were you calling us,
Mr. Chairman?
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Yes, sir.
           EXAMINATION BY THE CANADIAN
        NATIONAL/ILLINOIS CENTRAL RAILROAD
          MR. ED HARRIS:  Mr. Flores, I am Ed Harris of
the Canadian National/Illinois Central.  It is nice to
see you again.  You will remember we rode on 392 out of
Carbondale about a year ago.
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, sir, I remember.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  Mr. Flores, I have a couple
of questions.  Number one, you had stated that as you
were coming upon the McKnight crossing, you saw the
truck moving at a slow rate of speed.  Earlier comments
by Mr. Turpin indicated the driver said he was moving
15 to 20 miles an hour.
          Can you recall or make a recollection of the
actual speed in line with what you saw?
          MR. FLORES:  I cannot tell you the actual
speed of the truck.  To me, it was moving slowly, and
that is all I can tell you.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  That is fine, Mr. Flores.  I
was just looking for a point of clarification.  This
may be a particularly hard question to answer, and if
you don't recall, I certainly do understand based on
the circumstances.
          Mr. Flores, after the accident and the engine
was on its side, do you remember Mr. John Tuckett
climbing up the side of the engine and opening the door
and checking on your condition?
          MR. FLORES:  I remember Mr. Tuckett talking
to me, but he did not open no door or nothing.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  Did he holler through the
doorway or through the window or anything like that?
          MR. FLORES:  He was saying something, but I
could not hear what he was saying.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  That is understandable, and I
certainly do appreciate that.  Mr. Tuckett had
mentioned to us that he had remembered you saying, that
you had made the comment that the truck had gone around
the gates.
          Do you remember that comment?
          MR. FLORES:  No, sir, I don't.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  That is fine.  Those are all
the questions I have, sir.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Could you identify who Mr.
Tuckett is for the record.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  John Tuckett is a local track
supervisor that lives in the Bourbonnais area, and he
is responsible for track maintenance and track repair
in that particular area.  Mr. Tuckett had heard of the
accident over a radio, literally heard the accident
happen, and scooted right over to the accident scene to
assist in whatever way he could.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Dunn, have we
interviewed this gentleman, Mr. Tuckett?
          MR. DUNN:  I don't recall.
          Do you have a statement from Mr. Tuckett?
Would you please give me his name so we can talk to him
also.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  We don't need to do it right
now.  If you could, supply it if we have another person
to give information to the hearing.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  We would be more than happy
to do that.  We have that statement on file.  I am
sure, Jim, the statement was offered to you folks.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  I don't recall it, and I
have read the whole thing.  I don't recall seeing it.
          Federal Railroad?
          MR. BLACKMORE:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Federal Highway
Administration?
          MR. UMBS:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  The Illinois Commerce
Commission?
 EXAMINATION BY THE ILLINOIS COMMERCE COMMISSION
          MR. STEAD:  Mr. Flores, can you recall where
the truck was located when you first saw it and first
identified there was a truck?
          Was he on the tracks or was he near the
tracks?
          MR. FLORES:  It was on the crossing when I
first saw the truck.  Yes, that is the best I remember.
          MR. STEAD:  You said he was on the tracks.
          Was the entire tractor and trailer on the
tracks, or what portion of the truck was on the tracks?
          MR. FLORES:  Well, the front portion was on
the crossing when I first saw the truck.
          MR. STEAD:  Did you notice any other vehicles
in the area of the crossing at that time?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I didn't.
          MR. STEAD:  Can you estimate how much time
transpired between the time you first saw the truck and
the time you impacted the truck?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I cannot.
          MR. STEAD:  Can you estimate how far back
from the crossing you were, you and the train were, at
the time you first saw the truck?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I cannot.
          MR. STEAD:  No further questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you.
          The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers?
         EXAMINATION BY THE BROTHERHOOD
             OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS
          MR. WALPERT:  We have a few questions, thank
you.  Good morning.
          MR. FLORES:  Good morning.
          MR. WALPERT:  You spoke earlier that you
became a locomotive engineer in 1976.
          Were you required to go through any specific
training program to become a locomotive engineer?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, I was.
          MR. WALPERT:  How long was that program
approximately?
          MR. FLORES:  10 to 13 months.
          MR. WALPERT:  Thank you.
          Were you required to pass examinations to
become a locomotive engineer?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, oral and written
examinations; simulator school also.
          MR. WALPERT:  Where was the simulator school?
          MR. FLORES:  Topeka, Kansas.
          MR. WALPERT:  Have you been back to simulator
school since that time?
          MR. FLORES:  No.
          MR. WALPERT:  Are you familiar with a program
called Critical Incident Stress Debriefing?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I am not.
          MR. WALPERT:  You don't know whether or not
Amtrak has such a program in effect?
          MR. FLORES:  I can't remember.
          MR. WALPERT:  Were you offered any sort of
debriefing to cope with the accident subsequent to the
accident?
          MR. FLORES:  Not immediately.
          MR. WALPERT:  At the McKnight Road crossing,
have you seen the gates being activated in the past?
          I know you say you don't recollect in this
particular case.
          Do you recall seeing them activated in other
trips?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, I remember that.
          MR. WALPERT:  So, you are familiar with what
that would look like in the event they were activated?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, sir.
          MR. WALPERT:  Have you ever seen trucks go
around the activated gates at this crossing before?
          MR. FLORES:  No.
          MR. WALPERT:  Do you recall if there were
cars, rail cars, on the siding that may have restricted
you in any way?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I can't recall that.
          MR. WALPERT:  Mr. Turpin asked a question.  I
am going to ask it a little more specifically.
          From your point of view, do you have any
changes that you think could be made to prevent this
sort of thing from happening again?
          MR. FLORES:  Well, I am a little bit
concerned about the engine turning over.  Through all
these years that I have worked for the railroad, I
never, you know, have any incidents or heard about that
the engine turned so easily to me.
          Immediately after that accident, there was
another engine that turned over.  So, I would like to
maybe think to check the design or something.  I don't
know.  Maybe there is something we can find out with
the engine.
          MR. WALPERT:  Something that needs to be
investigated?
          MR. FLORES:  Maybe.
          MR. WALPERT:  Thank you, Angel.
          That is all I have for now.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  The United Transportation
Union?
  EXAMINATION BY THE UNITED TRANSPORTATION UNION
          MR. DWYER:  Mr. Flores, did you hear the
testimony of Mr. Raby about the crossing, the gentleman
who spoke about the truck?
          MR. FLORES:  Would you please repeat that.
          MR. DWYER:  There was a slide which showed
the crossing at McKnight Road.  I am wondering if you
can recall what the location of the truck was.
          Was it in the middle of the crossing or was
it towards you?
          How was the truck positioned on the crossing?
 Can you recall that?
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  We can put up that slide
again if you would like.
          You are talking about the aerial photograph?
          MR. DWYER:  I am talking about the actual,
yes, from the crossing.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  I think that was the first
one, the one that shows the whole area.
          MR. DWYER:  If the train is headed south, Mr.
Flores, was the truck in the middle of the crossing?
          MR. FLORES:  No, it was not in the middle.
          It was around there, a little bit farther.
When I first saw the truck, it was around that location
(indicating).
          MR. DWYER:  The truck was coming across the
crossing, in railroad terms, against the current of
traffic?
          MR. FLORES:  You say that the truck was
coming against the current traffic?
          MR. DWYER:  Was he on the wrong side of the
street on the crossing?
          MR. FLORES:  I could not tell you.
          MR. DWYER:  I have no further questions.
          Thank you, Mr. Flores.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Melco?
          MR. MARSHALL:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you, sir.
          Dr. Sweedler?
       EXAMINATION BY THE BOARD OF INQUIRY
          MR. SWEEDLER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
          Welcome, Mr. Flores.  I have just a couple of
questions.
          Can you recall what the speed of your
locomotive was when you first noticed the truck in the
crossing in front of you?
          MR. FLORES:  Around between 77, 79 miles an
hour.
          MR. SWEEDLER:  About how far from the
crossing could you estimate when you first noticed the
truck in front of you?
          MR. FLORES:  I just can't remember how far.
          MR. SWEEDLER:  You indicated you applied the
emergency brakes.
          Do you know if there was any perceptible
slowing of the train at all before the impact?
          MR. FLORES:  Well, if the train slowed down,
it didn't slow down that much.
          MR. SWEEDLER:  Have you had any training or
guidance about what to do if you notice a large vehicle
in front of you on the tracks?
          MR. FLORES:  No; just blow the whistle and
try to call his attention.  That is it.
          MR. SWEEDLER:  You did sound the whistle in
this case?
          MR. FLORES:  Sure, yes, sir.
          MR. SWEEDLER:  You have not received any
specific guidance about steps to take or actions to
take?
          I guess it is what you said; it was just
instinctive.
          MR. FLORES:  That is correct.
          MR. SWEEDLER:  Are you familiar with the
Operation Lifesaver Program?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, I am.
          MR. SWEEDLER:  Have you participated in that
program?
          MR. FLORES:  No, but I know it; I heard about
it.
          MR. SWEEDLER:  Thank you, sir.  I appreciate
your answers.
          That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Harris, Claude Harris?
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Good morning, Mr. Flores.
          One question:  On your approach to the
McKnight Road crossing, do you remember seeing any
other vehicle traffic at this particular crossing?
          MR. FLORES:  No, sir, I don't.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  You just remember just
the truck at the time of the accident?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, sir.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Thank you.
          MR. DUNN:  Thank you.
          Mr. Flores, I know the locomotive turned
over.
          How did you get out of there?
          MR. FLORES:  Somebody helped me get out from
under somehow.  That is all I remember.
          MR. DUNN:  Then you were transported to the
hospital?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes; that is what happened.
          MR. DUNN:  Can you recall how long or were
you passed out?
          MR. FLORES:  I passed out several times
probably.
          MR. DUNN:  When did you start remembering
things?  In the hospital?
          MR. FLORES:  Actually, I can't remember when
I started remembering.
          MR. DUNN:  Do you recall a fire at all?
          MR. FLORES:  I recall a smell of some sort,
probably fire, brakes, something.
          MR. DUNN:  I have one final question, and I
want to put you in an automobile.
          If you are driving your automobile and you
come up to a crossing and the lights start flashing,
what does that mean to you?
          MR. FLORES:  Well, that there is something
coming; there is a train coming.
          MR. DUNN:  What do you do?
          MR. FLORES:  I stay there until it clears.
          MR. DUNN:  So, you would stop?
          MR. FLORES:  That is correct.
          MR. DUNN:  Have you ever gone around gates?
          MR. FLORES:  Never.
          MR. DUNN:  Thank you very much.  Those are
all the questions I have.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Lauby?
          MR. LAUBY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
          Mr. Flores, I have just a couple of
clarification questions.
          As you approached the crossing at McKnight
Road, did you ever see the truck driver?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I didn't.
          MR. LAUBY:  You never made eye contact or saw
the truck driver look up the track or anything like
that?
          MR. FLORES:  No.
          MR. LAUBY:  You only saw the truck; is that
correct?
          MR. FLORES:  Yes, that is correct; yes, sir.
          MR. LAUBY:  You testified earlier that you
had not had trucks running around gates at that
particular crossing; is that correct?
          MR. FLORES:  That is correct.
          MR. LAUBY:  The McKnight Road crossing had a
great deal of truck traffic.
          Was that considered to be any more hazardous
than other crossings on this line?
          MR. FLORES:  I could not tell you that.
          To me, a crossing is a crossing.  You know, I
have to be aware of every crossing.
          MR. LAUBY:  There is no special concern by
yourself or any of the engineers, other engineers that
you talk to?
          MR. FLORES:  No; I don't think so.
          MR. LAUBY:  Between Chicago and Carbondale,
are there any crossings that stand out in your mind as
especially dangerous or a bigger problem than others?
          MR. FLORES:  No.
          I can't recall that right now.
          MR. LAUBY:  One other question about a
derailment, and I understand this was a traumatic
experience and you don't remember everything.
          Do you remember, after hitting the truck,
anything that happened?
          MR. FLORES:  No, I don't.
          MR. LAUBY:  Do you remember at what point the
locomotive derailed, or was it immediate?
          MR. FLORES:  I don't think it was
immediately, but that is the best I remember.
          It just took forever, you know, to me; and
then everything went blank.
          MR. LAUBY:  Thank you very much, Mr. Flores.
 No more questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you, Mr. Lauby.
          Again, Mr. Flores, we appreciate your
cooperation in this today.  I know this is probably not
an easy thing to do, and I can easily understand how
you cannot recall individual elements as a person who
is going along and everything is okay, and within
literally a matter of seconds, things are not okay any
more.
          I would like to ask you a couple of little
questions here.  One, you mentioned simulator training.
          Where did you have that simulator training?
          MR. FLORES:  Topeka, Kansas.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  I got to go through the one
at Kansas City on the BNSF a few years ago.
          As a part of that training, do they simulate
a railroad grade crossing accident?
          Do they have that capability?
          MR. FLORES:  I can't remember that, if we
have that in that simulator training program.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  The other question I have
is:  When you saw the truck in this particular
accident, and I think you said it was just coming on to
the main line track ahead of you when you saw it, do
you remember what color it was?
          MR. FLORES:  No.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Did you, at that time, know
from your experience that this was going to be a very
severe problem?
          In other words, was your action from that
point forward everything you could do to reduce the
throttle, put the brakes on?
          In other words, when you first saw it, did
you know you were in trouble?
          MR. FLORES:  I kind of had a feeling that,
you know, I need to apply the brakes as soon as
possible.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Would your first action be
to reduce the throttle and then go to the brakes?
          MR. FLORES:  That is the common procedure,
yes.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you for your help in
this.  We appreciate your coming.  Good luck.
          MR. FLORES:  Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Any further questions from
any parties?
          MR. WEEKS:  I have no further questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Turpin?
          MR. TURPIN:  I have no further questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you, sir.
          (Witness excused.)
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Let's take, at this point, a
15 minute break and reassemble here at about 20 minutes
until the hour.
          (Recess from 10:16 a.m. to 10:39 a.m.)
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  We are progressing beyond
our estimate in time, and we are going to have to take
a witness out of order here because the witness that
was originally scheduled isn't quite ready yet.
          So, Mr. Dunn, would you proceed.
          MR. DUNN:  We are flip-flopping two
witnesses.  The National Transportation Safety Board
calls Troy Schultz.
         SWORN TESTIMONY OF TROY SCHULTZ
          MR. DUNN:  Mr. Schultz, for the record, would
you please state and spell your entire name.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Troy Schultz; T-r-o-y,
S-c-h-u-l-t-z.
          MR. DUNN:  Mr. Schultz, were you in the
vicinity of Bourbonnais on March 15th, 1999?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, I was.
          MR. DUNN:  Where were you?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I was at my job operating a
crane.
          MR. DUNN:  Where was that?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Simms Metal America in
Kankakee, Illinois.
          MR. DUNN:  Thank you very much.
          I will now turn the questioning over to Ruben
Payan from the Technical Panel.
        EXAMINATION BY THE TECHNICAL PANEL
          MR. PAYAN:  Good morning, Mr. Schultz.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Good morning.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can we put Exhibit 2A up, please?
          I have several areas of questioning.
          On March 15th, do you remember what time you
went on duty?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Seven o'clock.
          MR. PAYAN:  Are those your normal working
hours?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. PAYAN:  What are your duties and
responsibilities basically?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  We load buckets for Birmingham
Steel, which makes rebar and stuff.
          MR. PAYAN:  On the screen, there is Exhibit
2A.
          Can you point out where your crane is
located?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Let me see.  I think it is
right about there (indicating).
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you describe it?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  There it is.  It is right here
(indicating).
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you describe the movements
you perform when you are doing the normal operation of
your crane?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          The bucket sits to the east of my crane, so I
am looking, just like looking at that picture now where
the crane is sitting.  I pick up metal and drop it in
the bucket.  Periodically, I am facing away from this
angle, but not too often.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you give an approximate
amount of time required for you to perform each of
those movements with your crane?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Anywhere from 10 seconds to 30
seconds.
          MR. PAYAN:  10 seconds, 20 seconds to do
what?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Go from a drop and making a
lift into the bucket to the piles and back to the
bucket.
          MR. PAYAN:  Is that about the same amount of
time each time, or is there a significant difference?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It is about the same time.
          MR. PAYAN:  From your operating position of
the crane, can you estimate about how far you can see
in all directions?
          You can use an exhibit if that helps.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  You can see real far.  I mean
you are up in the air quite a ways, and you can see
like all where people are standing on the crossing
right there.  You can see that.
          MR. PAYAN:  Which railroad crossings can you
see from your position?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I see right down here
(indicating).  There is nothing blocking the view.  You
see over the buildings pretty good.
          MR. PAYAN:  Is that the only crossing you can
see?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          The other crossing, which is a mile to the
north, has grain elevators that block it.
          MR. PAYAN:  Do you know the name of that
crossing that is visible to you?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I do believe it was McKnight
Road.
          MR. PAYAN:  Is that railroad crossing
illuminated in any way?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          I think I understand your question.
          MR. PAYAN:  From the crane, you say you
normally face towards the crossing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, I do.
          MR. PAYAN:  Which way do you turn, or do you
turn away from the crossing during your operation of
the crane?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I will, we may, you know, the
crane turns 360 degrees, so sometimes, I mean I will be
spinning all the way completely around.
          MR. LAUBY:  You asked a question about
illumination.  Would you please repeat that to make
sure Mr. Schultz understood that question.
          MR. PAYAN:  Okay.
          Can you recall if the railroad crossing is
illuminated in any way?
          I mean street lights or outside illumination
outside of the flashing lights.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No.
          You are talking if it is lit up in that area?
          MR. PAYAN:  Yes.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No.
          For a long time, it has been pretty dark.  It
is hard to see.
          MR. PAYAN:  There are no street lights or any
--
          MR. SCHULTZ:  There are little ones in the
parking lot and stuff, but right at the crossing, there
is none.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you describe what you can see
at the crossing when no trains are around there?
          How much detail can you see from your
position of the crane?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  You really can't.
          You can see the crossing gates when it is
fairly dark, but otherwise, you really can't see; but
when they light it up, you can see the crossing gates.
          MR. PAYAN:  When it is dark, you can make out
the gates?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. PAYAN:  Do you normally observe trains
through there?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          I see them come through all night long.
          MR. PAYAN:  Do you make it a habit of looking
at the crossings a lot?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          Usually, when you see the signals light up, I
have a tendency to look around for a train to see where
it is at.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you describe what you
normally see at the crossing when a train is
approaching?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Just usually the flashing
lights.  That is all.  That is all you really can see.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you see the train before it
gets to the crossing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes; yes, you can.
          MR. PAYAN:  About how far away?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Well, it would be, I don't
know, three quarters of a mile heading north.  Then
just when it clears the edge of Birmingham's building
when it is northbound, I can only see it about right
here (indicating).
          MR. PAYAN:  You said you can see the
flashers.
          How about the gates?
          Can you see them when they are activated?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, you can see them.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you make out if they are in
the up position or down?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  You could tell if they are up
or down.
          MR. PAYAN:  How about vehicles on the
highway?
          Can you make out vehicles when it is either
dark or illuminated?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, you can see vehicles.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you distinguish what kind of
vehicle it is?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  What do you mean?
          MR. PAYAN:  Just in general when you look at
it.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. PAYAN:  You can?  Okay.
          I would like to go back to the night of March
15th just prior to the accident.
          Can you tell us what you remember seeing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I was in the middle of loading
a bucket, and I was swinging north when I noticed the
crossing lights come on.  I looked to see where the
train was and didn't notice nothing.  A little bit
farther up to the north, I saw it coming.  There were
railroad cars and stuff with a grain elevator, and that
is when I noticed the train heading southbound.
          I made a lift of material and went back to
the bucket.  When I dropped it in, I kind of looked
back up to see where the train was to see if I could
see it.  About that time, it was at the crossing, and
that is when I noticed the impact.
          MR. PAYAN:  You mentioned when you started
you were facing north.
          You were looking at the crossing at that
time?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I was, yes, facing northeast.
          MR. PAYAN:  Is that the beginning of your
movement to load stuff into the bucket?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It just depends what I am
getting at the time.  There are different kinds of
metal.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you describe the amount of
time or do you have an estimate of the time it took you
to pick up the material, put it in the bucket, and turn
around?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  At that particular point right
there, I would say 15 to 20 seconds, somewhere in that
area.
          MR. PAYAN:  You said you saw the lights.
          Did you see them activate or were they
already activated when you saw them?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  When I looked up, the lights, I
just noticed they were on.
          MR. PAYAN:  No train was visible yet?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I didn't see it at first,
right.
          MR. PAYAN:  Then you made your movement with
the crane after you saw it?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          When I was making a lift, that is when I
looked back up, and I noticed the train was on the
tracks.
          MR. PAYAN:  You looked away from the
crossing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. PAYAN:  About how long did you turn away
from the crossing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I don't know.  Maybe, I don't
know, 10 seconds.  It was not that long.
          MR. PAYAN:  Then your movement then turned
you back to the crossing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I was turning from looking at
the crossing to the bucket, which I was loading with
strees (phonetic), but I could still see the crossing.
 I just, like, looked to my left a little bit back
towards the crossing, and that is when I saw everything
happen.
          MR. PAYAN:  When you turned back, you were
facing the crossing again after you finished putting
the material in the bucket?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          I started to turn back that way (indicating).
          MR. PAYAN:  Did you see the train then?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, I saw the train before I
even went to the bucket.
          MR. PAYAN:  Could you estimate where the
train was from the crossing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Maybe half a mile maybe; I
don't know even know if it was that far.
          MR. PAYAN:  Half a mile from the crossing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. PAYAN:  Were the lights activated at that
time, the flashers?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, they were.
          MR. PAYAN:  How about the gates?
          Could you see what position --
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I don't remember the gates.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you recall any vehicles near,
on, or around the crossing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  At the time, I didn't, you
know, see them.
          I don't pay attention to them I mean that
good, and that night, I don't recall seeing any
vehicles on their own tracks.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you tell us what you did
after you saw the accident?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I got my radio, which I
communicated with Birmingham Steel, the Mill Shop, and
I started getting a hold of my melter.  I told him that
a train just crashed and there was a fire and to call
911.  Then I noticed it was an Amtrak, and I let him
know that too.
          MR. PAYAN:  What did you do after that?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Shut my crane down and told my
supervisor or lead man, and then I got down and
proceeded to go over to help.
          MR. PAYAN:  Did you make it to the site?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, I did.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you describe what you saw and
what you did?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I saw a lot of cars piled up,
and there were people coming from all over.  There were
some Birmingham people coming out, and they started to
cut open the fence which keeps us from the railroad
tracks.  We started getting them through the fence and
into some of the buildings over there until medical
help got there.
          MR. PAYAN:  Did you have any conversations
with the truck driver or anybody?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No, I didn't.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can we get an exhibit?
          I don't know the number of the three shot
view.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  You might want to bring that
exhibit between the Board and the witness panel here.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you describe what we are
looking at, basically what you can see from here?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  That is a view from where I sit
in my crane.
          MR. PAYAN:  What position is your crane in?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I am looking northeast right
now.
          MR. PAYAN:  Is the crane facing northeast, or
are you seated northeast?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  The crane is facing northeast.
          That thing that looks like a pole in between
is --
          MR. PAYAN:  You can use the laser pointer if
you would like.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Okay.
          This pole, that is called my dipper arm, and
there is a grappler on the bottom which grabs the
steel.  So, that is how I was looking making a grab
that night that, that happened.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you describe what we are
looking at?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  You are looking at the railroad
crossing right on McKnight Road, I guess right where
the accident happened.
          MR. PAYAN:  Is that what you recall seeing?
          Is that about the field of view?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. PAYAN:  What were the weather conditions
on the night of the accident?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It was, I don't know, pretty
clear.  It was about just like what you are looking at
right now.
          MR. PAYAN:  About the same amount of light?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Well, there is more light on
out there now.  I don't know, but it used to be a
little darker than that.
          MR. PAYAN:  Thank you.  Mr. Simon will have
some questions for you.
          MR. SIMON:  Hello, Mr. Schultz.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Hello.
          MR. SIMON:  Can you tell us how far
approximately the crane is from the McKnight Road
crossing out there at the railroad?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I would say maybe three hundred
yards.
          MR. SIMON:  Did you see the truck that was
involved in the collision with the train at any time
prior to the impact with the train?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I think I saw something on the
tracks just before impact, but it all happened so
quick.
          MR. SIMON:  Did you see the truck perhaps on
the parking lot at Birmingham Steel or moving on
McKnight Road at all?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No; I didn't notice any
vehicles moving.
          MR. SIMON:  At the time of the collision with
the train, were you able, from your position, to
determine where in the roadway the truck was?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No, I could not.
          MR. SIMON:  You don't know if it was to the
right or to the left or to the center of the road?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No.
          I could not tell where it was at.
          MR. SIMON:  At the time you saw the truck,
did you see brake lights illuminate on the truck?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No.
          I didn't observe anything about the truck at
all.
          MR. SIMON:  With respect to the truck, what
were the positions or what was the position of the
gates at the crossing at the time of the impact?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  That night, I don't recall if
the gates were up or down.
          MR. SIMON:  What attracted your attention to
the approach of the train other than the signal?
          Was there anything else?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No.
          MR. SIMON:  Were you able to hear the
approach of the train, perhaps the train's horn?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No, I didn't.
          I did not hear anything.
          MR. SIMON:  In your position in the crane on
previous occasions or any occasions since the night of
the accident, have you observed the operation of those
signals and other vehicles crossing at the McKnight
Road grade crossing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I didn't understand what you
were asking me.
          MR. SIMON:  I'm sorry.
          Have you observed the operation of the
signals on previous occasions?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  Have you observed vehicles,
including truck traffic, cross the crossing on previous
occasions?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  Have you noticed anything unusual
about the signals or about the use of the crossing by
trucks or other vehicles on previous occasions?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No, nothing unusual.
          MR. SIMON:  Have you ever seen an accident
occur at the crossing prior to this one?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No, I have not.
          MR. SIMON:  Since the accident, have you paid
any attention to the traffic and the signals at the
McKnight Road crossing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  What have you noticed, if
anything?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I really have not noticed
nothing new.
          MR. SIMON:  The signals are operating in what
you consider to be a normal fashion?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Well, they worked on them after
the accident quite a bit.  That is all I noticed, but I
don't know if they were malfunctioning after if that is
what you want to know.
          MR. SIMON:  Are there any observations you
might consider useful or helpful to us since the
accident occurred?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No.
          MR. SIMON:  How was it you came forward to
get in touch with the Safety Board and describe your
observations to us?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I don't know.
          I thought it was the right thing to do, to
come forward.
          MR. SIMON:  Thank you, Mr. Schultz.
          I don't have any other questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Payan?
          MR. PAYAN:  Those are all the questions at
this time.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Blackmore?
          MR. BLACKMORE:  No questions at this time.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Umbs?
          MR. UMBS:  I have a couple of questions if I
may ask them.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Certainly.
EXAMINATION BY THE FEDERAL HIGHWAY ADMINISTRATION
          MR. UMBS:  The photos, are they true to life,
the color photo, the range?
          Is that exactly what it looked like, or is it
closer?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I can't see the photo.
          That is just about exactly what I see, yes.
          MR. UMBS:  True to life?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Umbs, let me interpose
here.  That is a question I had also, and I have been
assured that is about a 50 millimeter lens in a 35
millimeter film format, which is about normal human
eye.  So, we thought about that.
          MR. UMBS:  Have you ever seen any vehicles
going around the gate?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I have never noticed none.
          MR. UMBS:  Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  The Illinois Commerce
Commission?
          MR. STEAD:  No questions at this time.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  The Brotherhood of
Locomotive Engineers?
         EXAMINATION BY THE BROTHERHOOD
             OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS
          MR. WALPERT:  Yes, we have a few questions.
          Mr. Schultz, you said you did not hear the
whistle blowing on the train; is that correct?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. WALPERT:  Did you hear the explosion or
impact?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No, I did not; I did not hear
any noises that night at all.
          MR. WALPERT:  Can you state the distance in
yards that the crane is from the crossing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  About three hundred.
          MR. WALPERT:  Three hundred yards?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. WALPERT:  I see that you are wearing
glasses.
          Do you have a particular vision problem that
the glasses correct?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. WALPERT:  Can you tell us what that is?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I am not sure what condition my
eyes were in.
          MR. WALPERT:  Were you wearing your glasses
at the time?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, I was.
          MR. WALPERT:  You also stated you could not
see northward on McKnight Road due to the rail cars
were parked?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. WALPERT:  Is that correct?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          They had some scattered up and down the track
there.
          MR. WALPERT:  You said you saw the train
about a quarter of a mile from the crossing when you
first noticed it; is that correct?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No.
          I saw it.  It would be up probably, it would
be at least half a mile up when I noticed it.
          MR. WALPERT:  Half a mile?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, the first time.
          MR. WALPERT:  The cars parked near the grain
elevator did not obstruct your view at that point?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It was obstructed, I can't
remember exactly where, but I did, could see the train
at one time.
          MR. WALPERT:  You could see the train?
          Did you see the headlight of the train first
or the actual train?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I noticed the headlight.
          MR. WALPERT:  You noticed the headlight
first?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. WALPERT:  That is all I have for now.
Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you.
          The United Transportation Union?
          MR. DWYER:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Melco?
       EXAMINATION BY MELCO TRANSFER, INC.
          MR. MARSHALL:  I just have two questions.
          Troy, when you saw the impact, did you see
the impact, or did you see the glow of the flash?
          What was the first thing you saw?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I can't recall exactly what I
saw right at the impact.
          That happened really fast.
          MR. MARSHALL:  When you are up in your
position in the crane on a normal night, when trains
come through there, can you normally hear the horn on
the train?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  You can kind of hear the
whistle at times.
          That night, I do believe there was a wind
blowing northeast, and that might have been why I
didn't hear anything.
          MR. MARSHALL:  That is all I have got at this
time.
          Thank you, Troy.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Amtrak?
              EXAMINATION BY AMTRAK
          MR. BULLOCK:  Hello, Troy.  My name is Lee
Bullock.
          First of all, I would like to say thank you
very much for your assistance on March 15th with our
customers and with our employees.  We deeply appreciate
that, and we appreciate you coming forward to tell us
what you saw of this tragedy.
          A couple of points of clarification for me:
You said when you are in your work location, you cannot
see the grade crossing that is next to north of the
McKnight grade crossing; and you thought that was about
a mile north or something, but that you could see up to
the grain elevators.
          I am trying to get a sense of how far are the
grain elevators up from the McKnight crossing.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I am not sure how far that
distance is.  I don't know if it is even a mile.
          MR. BULLOCK:  Would you say it is at least a
half a mile?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          I mean I am not sure if that is a half mile
of road or a mile in between both roads.  I could see
the train halfway, but the grain elevator itself is up
on -- is it Saint George's Road?
          MR. BULLOCK:  When you saw the train, first
of all, you said often you see the lights and that
triggers your attention that a train is coming, and you
saw the lights on the grade crossing activate first.
          Is that what caught your attention first?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          I just noticed they were on.
          MR. BULLOCK:  You noticed they were on?
          That was the point you started looking for a
train?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. BULLOCK:  Then you looked up and you saw
a train.
          Where was the train at that point with
reference to the grain elevators?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It would have been just maybe a
couple of hundred yards only past the grain elevator
where I was able to see.
          MR. BULLOCK:  Just south?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, just south.
          MR. BULLOCK:  Mr. Chairman, I would
appreciate if -- I am trying to get a sense, and I
understand Troy is try trying to recollect the best he
can -- just so I have a sense and we have a sense, I
believe, if I am not correct, Troy, you said it was
about 15 or 20 seconds after you saw the train that
somewhere in the range of 15 or 20 seconds that you
looked back again, and then you subsequently saw the
collision?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. BULLOCK:  I would ask Mr. Chairman if we
could stop for that short 20 seconds and just observe
for our own observation how long that 20 second period
if that is all right.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Are you asking that we time
20 seconds out?
          MR. BULLOCK:  That is what I am asking.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Are you ready?
          MR. BULLOCK:  Yes, sir, let's say now.
          (20 Second Pause.)
          MR. BULLOCK:  20 seconds is up.
          Troy, would you say that is approximately the
time you think elapsed would you say?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It would be pretty close to it.
          MR. BULLOCK:  Thank you.
          I don't have any further questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you, sir.
          The Canadian National/Illinois Central?
          MR. ED HARRIS:  Hi, Troy.  I am Ed Harris,
Vice-President of the Midwest Division for the CNCI.
          Again, I would like to second Mr. Bullock's
comments.  Your quick actions on the 911 call and
emergency response time you folks started were very
exemplary.  That is a straight-forward comment and
attributable to your operation of quick actions.
Again, I express that for myself and the train as well.
          Troy, do you remember, from your perch up
there on that crane, what we call a security light that
burns in the evening hours next to the signal house?
          That would be just northwest of the crossing
itself.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  That light was illuminated
that night?
          Do you recall that?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I do believe it was.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  Troy, you also mentioned,
from your position on that crane, you noticed the
activation of the lights, the crossing lights
themselves, and then looked back towards the north.  I
would assume you saw the glow of the headlight.
          Would that be a correct statement?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          The first time I looked, I did not see
nothing, but I was in the middle of doing my job.  I
just glanced, and I didn't see nothing.  Then I did
look a couple of seconds later and saw it.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  You saw the glow of the
headlight after you took a second glance; is that
correct?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  This was, again, after the
activation of the crossing lights themselves?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  Once you saw that glow of the
headlight and the flashing lights working, you
proceeded to pick up your bucket of scrap, and this is
the 20 second time frame that you went over and
released this bucket back into the hopper that you dump
the scrap into; is that correct?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  When you came back over, that
is approximately when you saw the accident take place?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Well, I started, when I noticed
it, I had started to make the grab.  Then I dropped it
off, spun to my right, and dropped it off.  Then I
didn't even really turn my crane.  I just kind of
looked up, and that is when I saw it all happen.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  This may be a bit of a
reiteration of an earlier question, but I want to make
sure I understood your response.  This is in result of
a statement you made that week after the accident
itself.
          Do you recall in that statement that from the
illumination of the headlight from the Amtrak train,
that you did see the impact of the engine to the rear
axle of that truck?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I do.
          I am pretty sure that, that is what I saw,
and it was getting, at the time, I was not positive,
but I mean I know it hit something.  I could not tell
at the time if it hit a car or what it was.  I saw
something.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  Troy, those are all the
questions I have.  Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you, sir.
          Dr. Sweedler?
       EXAMINATION BY THE BOARD OF INQUIRY
          MR. SWEEDLER:  Mr. Schultz, welcome.
          Were you involved in the post-accident tests
to determine the different sight lines and what you saw
on the night of the accident, post-accident tests?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I was not -- I don't know.
          I am not sure if that is the same.
          MR. SWEEDLER:  Did they actually try to
simulate after the accident, a few days later, just
what you might have seen?
          Were you involved in those tests?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes; I was there.
          MR. SWEEDLER:  What they were actually
simulating, did that seem pretty close to what the
conditions were the night of the accident?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. SWEEDLER:  Thank you.
          That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Good morning, Mr.
Schultz.
          Two questions to you:  You mentioned earlier
in your testimony that you observed the truck departing
the Birmingham Steel parking lot and heading toward the
grade crossing.
          Did you observe any activities of the truck
before it departed the parking lot?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I didn't understand you.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Did you see the truck
before it departed the parking lot en route to the
grade crossing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No, I did not.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Did you observe any other
trucks in that parking lot at the time?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No.
          I think there were some trailers parked over
there, but I am not sure if there were any trucks.  I
mean there are always trucks over there, but that
night, I don't recall if there were any in the parking
lot or not.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Just to clarify it in my
mind, you mentioned earlier that you did not see any
other vehicle activity other than the truck on McKnight
Road prior to the collision?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          I didn't see anything.  I didn't see any
vehicles that night.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Lauby?
          (No response.)
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Dunn?
          MR. DUNN:  Thank you.
          Mr. Schultz, I know I was in that crane and a
lot of others were, and we did do the tests.
          How high in the air are you when you are
sitting in that bucket?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Fifty feet off the ground
maybe.
          MR. DUNN:  Could you describe what the
explosion or fire looked like, how high in the air.
          Would you go through that for me.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It was almost out of my view.
When all the cars were finally coming to a rest, I
noticed a fire.  It started to get bright, and then I
noticed an explosion and the fire.  Then a good sized
fire ball rose about a hundred to 150 feet in the air.
          MR. DUNN:  This wasn't at the time right at
the collision; this was seconds later?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, maybe a few seconds later.
          MR. DUNN:  I would like to talk a little bit
about the emergency response.
          If you would, could you put up Exhibit 2A for
me?
          I would like you to use your laser.  I know
you climbed out of the crane and went to assist.
          Could you show me the route you took?
          I know you described it to us, but I didn't
understand it too well, but this way, I definitely will
if you will show me how you got to the accident.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I came down, I do believe it is
right here, this road (indicating), which comes around.
 I went around the buildings, and I came out right over
in here.
          MR. DUNN:  You said you helped take some of
the passengers out of the train?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Well, I didn't help take them
out of the train.
          There were other people, but they were all
coming up to the fence there, and we helped them cross
the ditch.  Then some of them, the kind of critical
ones, we helped in the trailer, helped them into the
trailer we have over there.
          MR. DUNN:  From the time you started to help,
how soon was the first emergency responders up?
          Besides the police and maybe the first
ambulance, how much time elapsed?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Eight minutes maybe; I am not
sure.
          Everything was going pretty quick.
          MR. DUNN:  It was pretty quick they were
there?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It seemed like it.
          I am not sure how long it took them though.
          MR. DUNN:  Did you tell me that you were a
volunteer fireman also?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, I am.
          MR. DUNN:  Were you able to observe the
emergency responders' actions?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          I observed the first engine that got down to
the scene.
          MR. DUNN:  Did you take exception to anything
they were doing, or did they appear to be doing what
they should be?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          They got there, the engine, and they went
right to attack the fire that was on the one
locomotive.
          MR. DUNN:  Were the Birmingham employees at
all in the way or being asked to get away from the
scene at all?
          Did you hear any of that?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I never heard anything.
          MR. DUNN:  I guess you cross the crossing
once each day about five days a week I guess or twice.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          I cross it twice three to five days a week.
          MR. DUNN:  You have never seen anybody go
around the gates at all?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No, not this one.
          MR. DUNN:  What do you do when you see a
flashing light at the railroad crossing?
          I asked the engineer what he does in his
vehicle.
          What does it mean to you when you are coming
up on a crossing and you see the lights start to flash?
          What does that tell you as a driver?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  There is a train coming and to
stop.
          MR. DUNN:  Not hurry up and go, but stop?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, stop.
          MR. DUNN:  That is what you do?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. DUNN:  Last question:  Did you know truck
driver?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes; I do know him.
          MR. DUNN:  Did you have a conversation with
him the night of the accident?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No, I did not.
          MR. DUNN:  Have you had conversations with
him since the accident?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No, I have not.
          MR. DUNN:  In what way did you know him?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  He is a friend of my dad's.
          MR. DUNN:  I have no further questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Lauby?
          MR. LAUBY:  Just a few more questions, Mr.
Schultz.
          Can you tell me just a little bit more about
your job as a crane operator?
          Basically, what are your duties throughout a
typical day?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  We get scrap in from the
different local scrap yards, and we put it in sorted
piles for loading different menus, different kinds of
steel for the steel mill.  We load buckets all day long
for the steel mill.
          MR. LAUBY:  How many buckets would you say
you load in a typical day?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It ranges up to, say, 17 of
them a day.
          MR. LAUBY:  The movement you were making at
the time of the collision -- I guess you were picking
up metal from one pile and dropping it into the bucket
-- you do that all day long throughout your shift or
most of the day?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          You do that throughout the entire day until
you are relieved by the next crew that comes in to
work.
          MR. LAUBY:  How long have you been doing
this?
          How many years?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  About four and a half.
          MR. LAUBY:  These movements you make, do you
do them fairly consistently?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  There is a certain time that you
know that you can fill a bucket?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          It takes you about the same amount of time
every time to load a bucket.
          MR. LAUBY:  How much time would that be
about?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It takes you probably 20
minutes.
          MR. LAUBY:  How many of these movements would
be required to fill a bucket?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  40, 50.
          MR. LAUBY:  40, 50 movements?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Movements, uh-huh.
          MR. LAUBY:  After the accident, you met with
some Safety Board investigators at the crane; is that
correct?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  During that meeting, what was
done up on the crane?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  They wanted to see what I do at
my job and the way I was positioned and what I saw.
          MR. LAUBY:  Were the movements made that you
made the night of the accident, were those recreated
during that meeting?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  The movement from picking up a
piece of metal from one pile and dropping into the
bucket, was that recreated?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  During this period, times were
registered.
          To the best of your knowledge, were those
times accurate with the movements you made the night of
the accident?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Probably, yes; yes, they were.
          MR. LAUBY:  I want to ask just a couple of
other questions.  One thing that you remarked the night
of the test was that the oil was not heated up.
          What did you mean by that statement?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  When it is cold out, they have
a heater that heats all the hydraulic equipment, and it
helps the crane move a little faster.  When the oil is
cold and thick, the turning of the cylinders don't move
real fast.  It slows it down just a little bit.
          MR. LAUBY:  Typically, when you are loading a
bucket, is the oil heated up by the movement?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No.
          There is a regular heater that is inside.  I
don't know how to explain it.  There is like, say the
oil heater is on.  There is like a rod in the oil that
warms the tank up that holds like three hundred
gallons.
          MR. LAUBY:  On the night of the accident, do
you remember if the crane was moving freely or whether
it was delayed?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, it was moving freely.
          MR. LAUBY:  It was moving freely on the night
of the accident?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  Do you normally watch trains as
they go through this area?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  Do you kind of keep tabs on
freight trains and Amtrak trains as they move through?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No, not really.
          You sit up there all night by yourself, so
you just, when something exciting goes by, you watch.
          MR. LAUBY:  How do you first know that a
train is coming if you are up in the crane?
          What happens first?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Usually, the warning lights
will go on.  That is what catches your attention.  That
is about it.
          MR. LAUBY:  Do you monitor the movement of
the train as you are doing your work?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Sometimes.
          MR. LAUBY:  In this particular case, what
caught your attention to begin with?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  I just noticed the lights.  I
don't know what caught my attention.  I just looked and
saw it.
          MR. LAUBY:  You noticed the lights, you made
a movement, and then you looked back and you saw the
accident; is that correct?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  Again, following up on just a
couple of things that Mr. Dunn brought up.
          You use this crossing twice a day to go to
work and to go home; is that correct?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  Did you ever see anything unusual
at this crossing?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No.
          MR. LAUBY:  Any failures or trains going by
with the gates up or the lights off, anything like
that?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No.
          There has been, the gates have been down
before with the lights on.
          MR. LAUBY:  Have you heard any of your
colleagues at work complaining about this problem,
sir?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No.
          MR. LAUBY:  Thank you very much.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  First of all, I, like Amtrak
and the Railroad said, I would like to thank you for
being a good citizen and coming forward that night and
also to help us today.
          I have a couple of summary questions here.  I
will make sure that everyone understands me and
everyone else understands exactly what we are talking
about here.  You have crane that -- and I am going to
use my arm -- you pick stuff out of one pile here.
          That is the scrap metal; is that right?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Then you move it over and
put it in a bucket?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Then you go back and get
another one?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  That is what they timed as
the time from here to here and back to here?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  I want to make sure everyone
understands that.
          Where is the engine that drives the crane?
          Is that under you, behind you, on the ground,
or where?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It is behind me.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  It is directly behind you?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Is it very loud?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  No, it is not.
          It is loud, but you know, you can still hear
what is going on around you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Is it diesel or gasoline?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It is an electric motor.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  It is electric?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  I see.
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It runs on a hydraulic pump.
That is all it is used for.  It is an electric motor.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  There is an electric driven
hydraulic pump?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Do you normally work the
night watch or night shift?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  It is a swing shift.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Can you tell when the gates
are up on one of these photographs over here?
          When the gates are up, but the lights are on,
on the gates, can you actually see that?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  You can distinguish the
difference between they are up or they are down by
those lights?
          MR. SCHULTZ:  Yes, you can.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  For the record, I think we
measured the distance.
          Jay, wasn't it about 1,400 and some odd feet?
          MR. LAUBY:  I believe it was 1,700 feet.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  1,700 from the crossing?
So, that three hundred yards is about right.  That is
all I have.
          Any further?
          (No response.)
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  You are excused.  Thank you
very much for coming.
          (Witness excused.)
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  We will take about a five
minute break here while we get our next witness lined
up.
          (Recess from 11:31 a.m. to 11:34 a.m.)
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Could you bring your next
witness, please.
          MR. DUNN:  The National Transportation Safety
Board calls its next witness, Ms. Cathi S. Oliver.
       SWORN TESTIMONY OF CATHI S. OLIVER
          MR. DUNN:  Ms. Oliver, for the record, would
you please state your full name and spell it for us.
          MS. OLIVER:  Cathi S. Oliver, C-a-t-h-i, S.,
Oliver, O-l-i-v-e-r.
          MR. DUNN:  Who are you employed by?
          MS. OLIVER:  Amtrak.
          MR. DUNN:  As?
          MS. OLIVER:  An On-board Services Train
Attendant.
          MR. DUNN:  How long have you done that?
          MS. OLIVER:  Since I was hired January 18th
of this year.
          MR. DUNN:  Were you working on Amtrak Train
Number 59 on March 15, 1999?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes, I was.
          MR. DUNN:  Thank you very much.
          I will turn the questioning over to our
Technical Panel, Mr. Richard Downs.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Before we start, could you
introduce who you have accompanying you there?
          MS. OLIVER:  This is Dave White, the Product
Line Manager for the City of New Orleans, and Noreen
Ellis (phonetic), Manager of Employee Communications.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Welcome too.
        EXAMINATION BY THE TECHNICAL PANEL
          MR. DOWNS:  Thank you, Member Black.
          Good morning, Ms. Oliver.
          MS. OLIVER:  Good morning.
          MR. DOWNS:  Thanks again very much for
appearing here today.  We understand this is a very
trying time for you, but we do very much appreciate
your testimony here.  First off, I would like to get
into a little bit of background.
          Would you tell us something about your
professional background and training at Amtrak.
          I am talking about training you might have
done as part of your preparations for your position.
          MS. OLIVER:  They have an in-classroom
training where you learn the technical, literal side of
the training; and then they also have on-the-job where
they take you into the cars, each of the cars, and do
different training exercises with you in there also.
          MR. DOWNS:  This is a pretty extensive
program that goes on for several weeks?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. DOWNS:  As part of the training, is there
role-playing that goes on at all?
          Do they have actors or anything like that, or
is there just an instructor that gives you --
          MS. OLIVER:  The instructor does the
in-classroom training with you.  Then he takes you out
on to the train, and veteran employees of the crew
based where I work at, they come and do simulated
things with you, simulated, you know, accidents and
injuries, things like that.
          First, they test your reaction.  Then they go
about showing you the right way to handle the
situation.
          MR. DOWNS:  In your estimation, it was pretty
extensive?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. DOWNS:  Was there any emergency
situations training as part of that?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. DOWNS:  Let's go back a little bit just
prior to the accident on the particular day on the City
of New Orleans train.
          Can you give us a little bit of a rundown of
what occurred on that particular day -- was it a
routine departure, things of that sort, just
point-by-point -- as best you can recall?
          MS. OLIVER:  We arrived like we normally do
to get the train, the cars, get each of the cars set
up; got our instructions from our conductors; went
about loading our passengers when it was time; got
everybody settled in.  I think we were a few minutes
late leaving the station, but nothing out of the
ordinary.
          MR. DOWNS:  Nothing that really stretched the
schedule because there is, I presume, time built into
the schedule, that sort of thing?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes; we have time built in.
          MR. DOWNS:  Would you characterize this as
pretty much a routine --
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. DOWNS:  -- departure that particular day,
nothing out of the ordinary?
          MS. OLIVER:  No.
          MR. DOWNS:  As a train attendant, your
attention is what, to one or two cars?
          On this particular day, what was your job
assignment?
          MS. OLIVER:  I was to work what we call
short-haul coaches, and I had the 30 car and the 31
car.
          MR. DOWNS:  Was the train pretty much full
that particular day?
          MS. OLIVER:  My two cars were pretty full,
but they usually are at the beginning of the trip.
          MR. DOWNS:  Normally, how many train
attendants are on a routine run like this total, five
or ten, something like that?
          MS. OLIVER:  Just train attendants or --
          MR. DOWNS:  Train attendants, right.
          MS. OLIVER:  -- or service attendants also?
          MR. DOWNS:  Well, yes, the full breakdown if
you can recall the numbers.
          MS. OLIVER:  Approximately, I think eight to
ten.
          MR. DOWNS:  That is a typical set-up for that
particular train?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. DOWNS:  As the train was approaching
Bourbonnais, can you give us kind of a point-by-point
of your activities that you were involved in on that
particular day as best as you can recall?
          MS. OLIVER:  Before we got to Bourbonnais?
          MR. DOWNS:  Just before the accident.
          Were you working the car?
          Were you on break?
          MS. OLIVER:  I was supposed to go to break
and eat my dinner because the other attendant, once we
let people off at one of our next stops, she would go
down for the night, and then I would be up until one in
the morning; but I decided to go ahead and go on back
and help her load at Kankakee because there was just a
few and then I would go eat.
          So, I went down to take my break and to smoke
a cigarette because the car that we load them on to is
where the smoking car is also located.
          MR. DOWNS:  You were on the lower level
lounge at that particular time?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. DOWNS:  Normally, you might be, say,
taking your dinner break, but just by happenstance, you
happened to --
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. DOWNS:  -- with somebody else?
          If you could, continue a little bit on that
point.
          You were having your cigarette with a few
fellow passengers I presume.
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          I was talking to some of my passengers that
were down there with me, and they, you know, were
telling me their destinations.  They were asking me
questions about what it was like to work for Amtrak and
just chitchat, you know, watching the time waiting to
get into Kankakee.
          MR. DOWNS:  Nothing out of the ordinary in
the course of the conversation --
          MS. OLIVER:  No.
          MR. DOWNS:  -- just sitting around lounging
around, and all of a sudden, all heck broke loose?
          MS. OLIVER:  Basically, it started, the
tracks started to, I don't know, it was just like a
sudden jerk.
          MR. DOWNS:  Were you tossed about the car a
little bit with some of your fellow passengers there?
          MS. OLIVER:  Just a minute.
          MR. DOWNS:  Certainly.
          MS. OLIVER:  We were sitting there, and then
it felt like a jerk.  Then the tracks felt like they
were getting really rough.  Then I could feel -- it
felt like the brakes had been, the emergency brakes had
been put on.  We had to do that once before on another
one.
          All of a sudden, I grabbed on to the seat and
the table where I was sitting at, and I started
hollering at my passengers to hold on.  The lights were
flashing on and off, and people were starting to --
          MR. DOWNS:  That is quite all right.  We will
move on at this point.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Let me interrupt.
          Take as much time as you need.  We
understand, so don't worry about that at all.
          MR. DOWNS:  Let's change the subject a little
bit, Ms. Oliver.
          Do you remember which car this was, how far
back from the locomotive?
          It was the smoking car I believe you
mentioned.
          MS. OLIVER:  Seventh; it was either the
seventh or eighth car back from the -- I mean if you
get the close up area, I can show you exactly what car
I was on.
          MR. DOWNS:  Would you like to see one of the
exhibits?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. DOWNS:  Let's put up Exhibit 2B. That is
the close-up aerial view.  That is our aerial view
there, and just to refresh your memory, we have the
grade crossing on the right there.
          We have the number of cars lined up more or
less on the track.  There are about four of them kind
of in alignment.  Then you have the cars that turned
and zigzagged.  I believe the smoking coach was the
first one that started to zigzag.
          MS. OLIVER:  That one (indicating).  That is
the car I was on.
          MR. DOWNS:  It sounds like it was a pretty
harrowing time.
          When everything came to rest and the dust
started to settle, maybe you can give us some thoughts
as to what occurred next.
          I presume there were some passengers that
were petty shaken up along with yourself.
          MS. OLIVER:  As soon as we stopped moving and
I realized I was not dead, I got up and ran out and hit
my blower; went up the stairs screaming at people
asking if everybody was okay; and went towards the
front of the car.  When I got to the front, there were
no cars in front of us.
          I had passengers behind me hollering and
screaming, and we were all trying to figure out what
happened.  I had one passenger, I had told him to stay
by that front and not let anybody past it because there
were no cars in front of us and it is a long drop.
          I went back to the back.  There were
passengers in the lounge car, which was right behind
us, and he was by the door.  He helped me get across
into the lounge car because one the first things in
training is you don't open the doors and just
automatically jump out because you don't know where you
at.
          He helped me to cross into the lounge car.  I
was hollering at them asking them if they were okay and
if anybody was injured, please speak up.  I went down
the stairs, and by then, Tim, the LSA, our Lounge
Service Attendant, he was already outside and helping
his passengers off.  He told me it was okay to open my
doors.
          I went back upstairs, told the people that
were upstairs in the sight-seeing to go ahead and go
downstairs.  He was starting to unload them.  One
helped me back across into my car.  I put somebody in
charge there and went downstairs.
          The smoking car had jammed, the door.  I
could not get it opened, so I hollered at the people
inside that they were going to have to get the window,
take out the window.  I opened up my door.  I dropped
my ladder and my step stool down to help because it was
a good little jump down.
          Two of my male passengers helped me down.
Then they got down, and they proceeded to help get the
rest.  As the passengers came off, they helped get them
off while Tim and I helped get the ones in the smoking
room out of there by pulling them out through the
windows.
          Then next, I had a guy come around from the
back to tell me that there was a woman sitting upstairs
saying she was going to jump because her kids were in
the, that her kids were in the cars, one of the cars in
front of us, and she had to get to her kids.  I talked
her out of it, and some guy pulled her back and took
her down the right way.
          By then, there was a steel worker that came
out of nowhere and told me that they cut a hole in the
fence for us and that we could take people up to the
factory and there was a trailer up there to take
people.  Because it was cold, nobody had coats.  Some
of them didn't even have their shoes on.
          I got up to the road, and --
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Take your time.
          MS. OLIVER:  -- the reality of the whole
situation kind of hit me.
          MR. DOWNS:  Did the fire department begin to
arrive at that point?
          MS. OLIVER:  Not yet.
          I could hear them in the distance, but they
had not made it yet because when I got up to the road
down to -- if I am facing the factory, down to the
right of me was a bunch of people that were just
standing up on the road, passengers, where they had
been unloaded -- there was a woman and little girl on
the road.
          I told the woman that you need to move the
little girl because the EMS would be coming through.
We had to get her off the road.  She told me that we
could not.  She didn't say anything.  I just followed
her gaze.
          MR. DOWNS:  Ms. Oliver, if would you like to
take a moment, certainly feel free.
          MS. OLIVER:  She is holding some kind of
cloth at the bottom of the little girl's leg where her
foot used to be.  That is when the whole reality of the
accident hit me.  I just told her to keep her there.
          I turned around, and I started hollering at
the people down the road to follow me, to come up here.
 I was going to take them up to a trailer where they
could get warm.  They started following.  When most of
them had gone up, we went back and started going
through the cars checking for other people.
          I know one of the other attendants went to
the car that was laying on its side, which was one of
my cars that I was in charge of while I was working,
and started helping people out of there.  We were just,
I mean people were straggling out, and we were just --
children, we are taking their children and taking them
up to the trailer for them so that they could get warm;
pointing people in the right direction; helping the
people; if they were hurt and bleeding, getting the EMS
to them.
          MR. DOWNS:  I believe at some point you
previously mentioned you immediately walked back around
toward the end of the train, towards the rear of the
train.
          MS. OLIVER:  That was when I was helping.
Yes, I was helping one of the passengers try to find
her children.
          The whole train was still on the track.  They
had not removed any of it from the crossing yet, so you
had to go through the train to get to the other side
because they had people that had gotten off the train
and had taken them to like a lumber place or something.
 I didn't even pay attention to the building.
          MR. DOWNS:  At that time point, the
ambulances and such were --
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          By then, the EMS and fire and everybody was
there.  Steel workers were everywhere.  People, I mean,
just came out of the woodwork and were out there.  It
was me and another TA were looking, helping look for
these children.
          MR. DOWNS:  Thank you very much, Ms. Oliver.
          Is there anything else you would like to
relay in closing, any kind of thoughts you would like
to pass along?
          MS. OLIVER:  No.
          MR. DOWNS:  Thank you very much.
          Mr. Turpin?
          MR. TURPIN:  I have got a few.
          I understand you have a policy book or a
guide book that you use.
          MS. OLIVER:  Map 21; I call it my Bible.
          MR. TURPIN:  Go ahead.
          MS. OLIVER:  On all my runs, in my work bag,
it was with me at all times.  It had our codes, our
rules.  Everything, you know, you could think of was in
this book.
          MR. TURPIN:  Does it have emergency
procedures in it?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. TURPIN:  Did you feel that they were
complete enough and helped in this accident?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. TURPIN:  Are you aware that the operating
crew, the conductor and the engineer, they also had a
policy and rule book?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. TURPIN:  Is it the same as the one you
have?
          MS. OLIVER:  I am assuming so.
          I have never actually looked at one of their
books.
          MR. TURPIN:  From where you were in the
train, could you hear the train whistle?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. TURPIN:  Had you heard the train whistle
previous to the accident?
          MS. OLIVER:  At our last, yes, when we go
through intersections, I can.  When I am downstairs in
the smoking room, I can hear it real good.
          MR. TURPIN:  From Chicago all the way to the
accident, you were able to hear the train whistle?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. TURPIN:  Is there anything you would like
to have seen after the accident available to you or
different or could have helped you?
          MS. OLIVER:  I don't understand.
          What do you mean?
          MR. TURPIN:  Once the accident occurred, what
would you like to have seen differently?
          Was there anything that could have been
improved or been better for a response?
          MS. OLIVER:  I don't know.
          I mean just, I didn't think about anything
like that.  I just had my job to do.  I had to make
sure my passengers were safe.  I mean I did -- I don't
know if anything could have been done differently then
to change the situation.  I mean, that is, after the
accident.
          MR. TURPIN:  Thank you very much.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you.
          Federal Highway?
          MR. UMBS:  No questions.
          I just want to thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Illinois Commerce
Commission?
          MR. STEAD:  We have no questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Brotherhood of Locomotive
Engineers?
               EXAMINATION BY THE
       BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS
          MR. WALPERT:  I just have one question.
          Do you recall at what point in time the
emergency application of the brakes occurred?
          MS. OLIVER:  I know it was before the cars
started sliding all over the place.
          I mean it was like, like I said, it felt kind
of like an impact thing, and then the next thing you
know, that is when I knew that or I assumed that the
brakes had been hit because I had felt that feeling
before.
          MR. WALPERT:  Thank you.
          That is all I have.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  United Transportation Union?
          MR. DWYER:  No questions, thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Melco?
          MR. MARSHALL:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Amtrak?
              EXAMINATION BY AMTRAK
          MR. BULLOCK:  I just have one question.  I
guess somehow I missed them in the event at
Bourbonnais, but you indicated you actually removed the
windows or somebody removed the windows in the smoking
lounge and, I guess, in another car as well.
          Was that part of the training, Cathi?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. BULLOCK:  Did it come out the way it was
supposed to?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. BULLOCK:  When you pulled the rubber
grommet from around it, was it easy enough to remove?
          MS. OLIVER:  Actually, there is a metal thing
that we grab and pull on it.  It pulls the sealant off
of it, and then you have to work to get the glass out.
 I mean there is like -- I don't know how to explain
it.  I can show you better than I can explain it, but
yes, it worked.  It was no problem.  I mean "boom," and
it was out.
          MR. BULLOCK:  Did you actually remove the
window?
          MS. OLIVER:  No.
          We explained to the passengers inside how to
do it.
          MR. BULLOCK:  Then they removed them?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. BULLOCK:  I just want to express my
appreciation for your being willing to come, Cathi.  I
know this has not been easy, and I was concerned about
that; but I really appreciate your being here, and we
look forward to working with you to get you back in the
work force with us.  Thanks.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Canadian National/Illinois
Central?
          MR. ED HARRIS:  We have no questions for
Cathi other than just a big round of thanks for coming
out here.  So, thanks again.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Federal Railroad?
          MR. BLACKMORE:  No questions.
       EXAMINATION BY THE BOARD OF INQUIRY
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Sweedler?
          MR. SWEEDLER:  I have no questions, Mr.
Chairman.
          I just want to commend Cathi for the fine job
she did during that tragic evening.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Harris has no questions.
          Mr. Dunn?
          MR. DUNN:  I want to thank you for coming
also.
          What does hit the blower mean?
          MS. OLIVER:  It is a switch that every car is
equipped with upstairs and downstairs that
automatically stops the circulation of the air in the
car so that if there is a fire, it is not spread all
the way through the train.
          So any time anything like that happens, you
hit the blower; it shuts down the circulation; and the
smoke from fire and so on and so forth isn't spread
through the rest of the car.
          MR. DUNN:  Was this part of your training?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          That is one of the main things right there.
No matter what happens, you always hit that blower.
          MR. DUNN:  Do you feel that Amtrak's training
helped you to react the way you did in this accident?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. DUNN:  Did you at all see the engineer,
Angel R. Flores?
          MS. OLIVER:  No.
          MR. DUNN:  Would you know the engineer on
your train?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. DUNN:  Have you worked with him before?
          MS. OLIVER:  I don't remember seeing him
before.
          This was my first trip on my own.  I was in
training up to that.
          MR. DUNN:  Thank you very much for coming
forward.  I know it has been tough.  Thank you.
          Those are all the questions I have.
          MR. LAUBY:  I have a couple of questions, Ms.
Oliver.  Again, it surrounds the training you received
to react in an emergency.  Let me start it in Chicago.
          After the train leaves Chicago, do you
provide any information to passengers on any safety
information?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          You start out by welcoming them on train.
You explain the usual things -- where the restrooms are
and so on and so forth.  You explain to them we would
appreciate them not going without their shoes, that we
do have a lot of pinch points.
          We explain to them how to get through the
cars because in between the cars, there is a lot of
pinch points there too.  So, we explain to them that is
why we have the candy stripe bars, you know.  We
explain to them please have their children with them;
do not leave your children unattended because we cannot
watch them for them.
          We explain to them where the emergency
windows are and briefly explain to them how to work
them and explain to them that with each window, there
is a little thing on it explaining how the windows are
opened.  We also explain not to open up the doors or
the windows down on the doors.
          In case of an emergency, the first thing that
they are to do if they can is to locate their train
attendants, you know, unless of course we are hurt.
Then it is basically a common sense thing.  We tell
them where the stops and what the stops are, you know.
          Then I go through one-on-one and answer any
questions they might have.  If I didn't get it across
to them on the PA system, I go through and answer any
questions they have.
          MR. LAUBY:  Are there any written materials
in the cars for them to refer to?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes, we have those.
          They are in the pouch on the back of each
seat.  We also tell them about that too.  I forgot
about that.  We tell them it is there, that it explains
also how to open the windows and what to do in an
emergency.
          As a matter of fact, in the card, it explains
there that unless the car is on fire, you are not to
leave it; you are to stay in the car unless, of course,
it is over-run by smoke or fire; and in an emergency
situation, look for your conductor or your train
attendant.
          MR. LAUBY:  How often would you repeat any of
this information during a run?
          MS. OLIVER:  At the main stop, when we leave
Chicago, we do it over the PA system.  Then everybody
that comes on after that, because of the evening, at
night, the PA, we shut it down at ten for people to
sleep.  When we bring someone on to the train and seat
them, we explain everything to them personally.
          MR. LAUBY:  You individually brief people
that come on in an overnight --
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  The training you received in how
to respond in an emergency, can you just give me a
short synopsis of what is included in that training?
          Mr. Dunn just talked about the blower switch,
and that is one of the items on the checklist.
          What else is on the checklist?
          MS. OLIVER:  They show us how to operate all
the fire extinguishers, where our glow sticks are.
          MR. LAUBY:  What are "glow sticks?"
          MS. OLIVER:  They are like those little
things you used to get at the fair.  You break them in
half, shake them, and they glow in a neon color.  They
light up so you can see.
          We used a lot of them that night at the
accident because up where the fence was cut, there was
a stump.  So, we busted those up and placed them around
that stump for the people going through it.  Plus, it
helps you see in the dark because they illuminate quite
a bit.
          We have a sledgehammer that is also in our
emergency compartment, and you are explaining how to
use that:  You don't just go up and hit the glass with
that because it is Plexiglass, and it hits back.
          Our electrical box, they show us what
switches to shut down in that in case of an accident.
We have a crowbar in there that also helps.  It will
help with opening the windows at times too, depending
on, you know, if they have sustained any kind of damage
or anything.
          MR. LAUBY:  Were any of those tools used in
this case in the cars that you were in?
          MS. OLIVER:  I didn't have to use any.
          MR. LAUBY:  Once an accident occurs, what is
your number one concern based on the training you have
received?
          MS. OLIVER:  Like I said, no matter what, you
know, in an accident like that, the first thing I do is
I hit the blower.
          MR. LAUBY:  What about the passengers?
          MS. OLIVER:  Then right after that, that is
when -- well, like that night, I was hollering the same
time I was hitting the blower and asking was everybody
okay; anybody that wasn't, please holler, you know.
          Everybody in my car, other than being shaken
up and bounced around a little bit, seemed to be okay.
 Anybody that would have been seriously injured in my
car, they would have been, I would have somehow with --
the other passengers that were on there helped me get
them off and get them to medical attention.
          My passengers were my priority that night.  I
was not worried about myself.
          MR. LAUBY:  Thank you very much.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Are there any secondary
questions from any of the parties?
          Mr. Downs?
    FURTHER EXAMINATION BY THE TECHNICAL PANEL
          MR. DOWNS:  Ms. Oliver, I have one follow-up
question.
          That evening after the derailment, was the
emergency lighting working in the cars that you were in
and had the courage to walk through?
          MS. OLIVER:  As I told them before, I really
don't know if it was the lighting or if it was the
lights from the steel mill.  That, I am not sure about.
 I want to say I think they were, but I can't be a
hundred percent sure.
          MR. DOWNS:  The doors did open when you
pushed the door release button.
          That is an electrical door; correct?
          MS. OLIVER:  Airlock, yes.
          MR. DOWNS:  So, you would need power to move
the door.
          MS. OLIVER:  It used the last bit of air to
open the doors.
          MR. DOWNS:  You were able to successfully
open the doors and egress that way.
          Did you have to climbed out any of the
emergency windows with anybody?
          MS. OLIVER:  My passengers in the smoking car
did.  In the downstairs, in the smoking lounge, they
did have to crawl out.
          MR. DOWNS:  There is a little bit of a drop
from the window height down to the ground?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          They crawled out, and we basically carried
them.  You know, they were crawling out at an angle
like this (indicating) on to us, and then we were
setting them down.
          MR. DOWNS:  Sounds like you had pretty much
of a take-charge situation.
          Did you have, I guess, some passengers that
were able to help you in some of your tasks?
          MS. OLIVER:  Yes.
          Basically, if you were not hurt, I put you to
work.
          MR. DOWNS:  Again, thank you so much for your
testimony here, Ms. Oliver.  It was very important.
          MS. OLIVER:  Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  I don't have any questions
for you.  I think you did an excellent job.
          I used to be, before I retired, in a position
where I had some people working with me, and I would
have hoped that they would have always behaved as
responsibly and professionally as you did in this.
          I am very impressed.  Obviously, the training
took.  I thank you for what you did and for coming and
putting up with us today.  You are excused.  Thank you.
          (Witness excused.)
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  I would like to take a lunch
break.  Be back at about 1:45.
          (Recess from 12:07 p.m. to 1:45 p.m.)
         A F T E R N O O N  S E S S I O N
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Dunn?
          MR. DUNN:  The National Transportation Safety
Board calls its next witness, Aubrey Q. Fosburgh III.
    SWORN TESTIMONY OF AUBREY Q. FOSBURGH III
          MR. DUNN:  Mr. Fosburgh, for the record,
would you please state your full name and spell it.
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Aubrey, A-u-b-r-e-y;
F-o-s-b-u-r-g-h.
          MR. DUNN:  Mr. Fosburgh, were you in the
vicinity of Bourbonnais, Illinois on March 15, 1999?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I was.
          MR. DUNN:  Were you in the vicinity of
McKnight Road on that night?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I was.
          MR. DUNN:  I will now turn the questioning
over to our Technical Panel, Mr. Burton Simon.
        EXAMINATION BY THE TECHNICAL PANEL
          MR. SIMON:  Good afternoon, Mr. Fosburgh.
          Can you tell us what you were doing on the
evening of the accident in the vicinity of Birmingham
Steel Plant?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  I had just got my truck and
trailer loaded there at the steel company, and I was
tarping my load outside the gates.  I had just finished
up everything I loaded.
          MR. SIMON:  When you say tarping your load,
is that a term for covering a load to keep it safe from
the elements?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  Prior to the collision, did you
have the opportunity to see the truck that was involved
in the collision with the train?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I did.
          MR. SIMON:  Would you describe where you
first saw it.
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Well, I was facing towards the
intersection of the accident, and I looked in my mirror
and I seen the truck coming across the scale.  He
proceeded to McKnight Road and made a right and
proceeded towards the intersection of the train
crossing.
          MR. SIMON:  If we could, could we put up
Exhibit 2A, please?
          I believe on the table there, Mr. Fosburgh,
you will find a laser pointer.  Feel free to use that
once the photograph, Exhibit 2A, comes up.
          Could you point with the laser pointer in the
vicinity of where your truck was parked.
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Right there (indicating).
          MR. SIMON:  Where did you first see the truck
that was involved in the collision?
          You said you saw it in your rear view mirror
at first?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          He was about right here (indicating) when I
seen him in my mirror.
          MR. SIMON:  In which direction was the truck
traveling?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  He was heading towards
McKnight Road, right here (indicating).
          MR. SIMON:  He did not pass you in your
parked position on the parking lot, but went directly
to McKnight Road through that exit or entrance you just
pointed to?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  That particular one, which would
be the westbound, the most westerly exit or entrance
from the parking lot?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  When the truck turned, you said
it turned right and went toward the crossing; is that
correct?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  Where were you at that time?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  When he came up the side of my
truck as he was passing me, I was half in and out of my
truck.  I had my foot on the step of my truck.
          MR. SIMON:  You were stepping out of your
truck or stepping into it?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes; I was stepping back out.
          MR. SIMON:  Did you watch the truck move
toward the McKnight crossing?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I did.
          MR. SIMON:  Explain that to us, please.
          MR. FOSBURGH:  I noticed he had an over-sized
load on it.  You know, I had been there a few times
before, and I had never seen an over-sized load come
out of there.  It caught my attention, so I just
watched him proceed up to the tracks.
          MR. SIMON:  Was the vehicle illuminated in
any way with headlights, tail lamps, brake lights,
marker lights, anything like that --
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, it was.
          MR. SIMON:  -- the full complement of
lighting equipment that you would expect to see on a
truck?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, it was.
          MR. SIMON:  Nothing unusual to your eye?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          It just had the over-sized red flag on the
back of the load.
          MR. SIMON:  How far would you estimate that
the load was over the back end of the trailer?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Three or four foot.
          MR. SIMON:  As the truck proceeded eastbound,
what is the next thing that you saw?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  He came up to the intersection
of the tracks.  I seen the brake lights come on, and he
proceeded across the tracks.  He never came to a
complete stop.  I just seen the lights come on, and
then he proceeded across the tracks.
          MR. SIMON:  How long do you think the brake
lights were illuminated?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Two or three seconds.
          MR. SIMON:  Were you able to hear the truck
pass as well as see it?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I was.
          MR. SIMON:  Could you hear it shift gears?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          That is another thing that brought my
attention.  When he shifted gears -- I have a Jake
brake on my truck, and he must not have turned it off
because I heard it kind of muffle down like the Jake
brake was still on.  Then he proceeded to shift the
gears again.
          MR. SIMON:  The Jake brake, to your ear,
provides a unique sound --
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, it does.
          MR. SIMON:  -- that helps you recognize what
it is?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  When the truck got in the
vicinity of the crossing, did you notice any signals
illuminated at the crossing?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  I didn't notice any as he
proceeded across the tracks.
          MR. SIMON:  Was there a time you saw the
signals illuminated?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  The only time I seen them
illuminated was after the accident had happened.
          The gates were down, and the lights were on
then, but as he went across the tracks, I didn't see
any lights.
          MR. SIMON:  Did you notice the position of
the gates at the time the truck was struck by the
train?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  They were up as he went
across.
          MR. SIMON:  Did you notice any other vehicles
in the area of the parking lot or on McKnight Road?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Not on McKnight Road, but
inside the parking lot, there was another truck.
          He was approximately right there
(indicating).  He had just came out of the steel mill
too.  He was loading.  Well, he was tarping his load.
Then all these vehicles right here (indicating) were
there too.  That is all the vehicles I seen.
          MR. SIMON:  You didn't see any automobiles in
the area?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          MR. SIMON:  What was the lighting at the
intersection of the tracks and McKnight Road at the
crossing?
          Was there any illumination there?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          The only illumination was coming from the
parking lot because the parking lot was very well lit.
 It kind of glared over there, but it was not lit up a
lot.
          MR. SIMON:  As the truck crossed the tracks,
what was its position with respect to the center of the
road?
          Was it to the right, to the left, in the
center of the road?
          Can you give us an indication of where it was
as it crossed the tracks?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  He was kind of towards the
left side of the road.  He was over the center line
just a little bit.  He was not way over the center
line.
          MR. SIMON:  Was there a time you saw the
gates of the crossing descend?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No, I never seen them descend
down.
          After the accident, the other driver and I,
we ran towards the train, and I never noticed them down
at that time.  I had came back to my truck probably two
or three hours after the accident happened, and I
noticed they were down at that time.
          MR. SIMON:  From the position where your
truck was parked on the parking lot of Birmingham Steel
to the crossing, what would you estimate that distance
to be?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Between 75 to 100 yards.
          MR. SIMON:  Did you see the approach of the
train?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          There is, like, a little hill right here
(indicating).  It blocked my view from seeing it right
here.  I only seen it right up in here.  Just before
impact, they came behind the berm that was there.
          MR. SIMON:  If you would, would you mind
stepping down from your chair and coming over here.  I
will meet you there, and we will discuss the
positioning of the vehicles further.  Stand over on
this side here (indicating).
          If you would, please place your truck in the
position where it was parked.
          (Witness complies.)
          MR. SIMON:  You have placed your truck in 15,
16, and 17J; is that right?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  Would you point out with your
hand, with your finger, where you first saw the
accident truck.
          MR. FOSBURGH:  It was about right here
(indicating).
          I seen him out of my right-hand mirror as he
was coming across the scale.
          MR. SIMON:  That would be in about block 19I;
is that correct?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  (Pointing.)
          MR. SIMON:  When the truck passed you, did
you hear it going through the gears?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I did.
          I heard it at about right here (indicating).
 He was going through a gear.
          MR. SIMON:  Do you have an estimate about
what speed he was traveling and what gear he was in?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  I don't know about a gear.  He
was probably going, at this time, probably about 10, 15
miles an hour.
          MR. SIMON:  No estimate on what gear he was
using?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          MR. SIMON:  Would you take this other truck,
please, and put it in a position where you observed it
when the collision occurred.
          (Witness complies.)
          MR. SIMON:  If you would, please, move the
locomotive engine and put it in place.
          (Witness complies.)
          MR. SIMON:  From what you said previously, do
I understand correctly that at this time, you did not
see any lights illuminated at the crossing?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  That is right.
          MR. SIMON:  The gates were vertical without
any lights on the gates?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  You saw no other cars in the
area?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No, I didn't.
          MR. SIMON:  Before we go back to our seats,
is there anyone on the Board of Inquiry that might want
to do something more here?
          MR. DUNN:  I got one question.
          What side of the truck was he standing on?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  My driver's side of the truck
is right here (indicating).
          MR. DUNN:  That is the only question I have.
          MR. SIMON:  We can go back to our seats.
          The witness and I were just using, for the
record, Exhibit 2D to identify the locations of the
vehicles in the vicinity of the accident.
          Did you hear the horn of the train before the
accident?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No, I didn't.
          MR. SIMON:  Did you see the train actually
strike the truck, or was your attention drawn to the
crossing because of the collision?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  I had seen the truck.  I seen
the train come through, and as the truck was going
across, I never thought he was going to get hit, but I
seen the impact; and all the way down the track, the
trains moved.
          MR. SIMON:  Would you describe what you saw
when the collision occurred.
          MR. FOSBURGH:  As soon as on impact, I seen a
ball of flame underneath the train, and then the cars
just started falling off the track.  Then as closer
towards the end of the stop, the front part of the
train had exploded.
          MR. SIMON:  At that time, you were standing
next to your truck near the driver door?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  Would you describe after the
vehicles, the train and the truck, stopped moving after
the collision.
          Would you describe the post-accident scene,
please.
          MR. FOSBURGH:  It was a mess.  There was,
like I said, the other driver that was there and I, we
just took off running towards the train and jumped over
the fence and started helping people out that were
trapped inside.
          MR. SIMON:  What assistance were you able to
render to people that were on the train?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  We had helped quite a few
people out of the sleeper car that was on fire.
          MR. SIMON:  After the accident, other than
emergency equipment, did you see any other vehicles in
the area?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No, not after the accident.
          On the other side of the tracks, I guess that
would be the eastbound side of the tracks, there were
vehicles coming in over there.  Other than emergency
vehicles, I didn't see no other vehicles.
          MR. SIMON:  At what time did you leave the
area after the collision and after you assisted with
victims and so on?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  It was the following morning,
probably 10:30 in the morning.
          Birmingham Steel had to make us a road and
cut a gate in their back fence to let us out.  They
said there was no other access for us to leave the
premises.
          MR. SIMON:  The load that you had from
Birmingham Steel, where did you take it?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Detroit, Michigan.
          MR. SIMON:  Was it sometime after leaving
Birmingham Steel that you became aware that what you
had seen would be important to investigators?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No; I knew at the time.
          I had left my name and address with the
police officer there, and I went on the road for four
or five days.  I returned home and asked my wife has
anybody called.  She said no, so I contacted the
Illinois State Police.
          MR. SIMON:  Why did you do that?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Because I knew what I had seen
would be important to figure out what actually
happened.
          MR. SIMON:  When did you first talk with
either police investigators or NTSB investigators?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  The first time was the
Saturday after or Sunday after.  I had just returned
home from a long run.  It was Saturday or Sunday I
talked to them.
          MR. SIMON:  You met them at your home in
Indiana?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  How often do you cross the
McKnight Road crossing there near the steel plant?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  I don't cross it very often at
all.  That was the last time I crossed it this year so
far.
          MR. SIMON:  The night of the accident was the
first time in 1999 that you were at the steel plant and
used that crossing?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, it was.
          MR. SIMON:  Thank you, Mr. Fosburgh.
          Mr. Payan may have some questions for you.
          MR. PAYAN:  I just have a few follow-up
questions.
          You mentioned you were in the parking lot
tarping your load?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. PAYAN:  Had you just picked up that load?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I did.
          MR. PAYAN:  Did you, by any chance, have a
chance to talk to the driver of the accident truck?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          He had pulled in as I was pulling out of the
building.  He had pulled in, so I never seen him.  I
don't even know what he looks like.  I just seen the
truck pulling in as I was pulling out of the building.
          MR. PAYAN:  You mentioned that when you first
saw the truck, you were sitting in your cab?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I was.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you kind of show us up there
where it was?
          Were you looking at the truck the whole time
while you were getting out of your truck, or at what
point did you get off the truck?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  I seen him when he was about
right here (indicating).  He was coming behind my truck
to go here (indicating).  I had opened up my door.  I
lost sight of him for probably five seconds.  He was
about right here (indicating) as I was exiting my
truck.
          MR. PAYAN:  While you were outside of your
cab, you saw him the whole way up to the crossing?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I did.
          MR. PAYAN:  The exhibit we are seeing right
now, it shows some vehicles in 6E, F, and G.
          Were any of those there when you were tarping
your load?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, sir, they were.
          MR. PAYAN:  Did they block your view of the
crossing at all?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          This was an empty flat bed that was there.
There were two other trucks sitting here, but they were
over here (indicating).  There was nothing blocking my
view.
          MR. PAYAN:  You do remember seeing both gates
before the train got there?
          You could make them out?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I could.
          MR. PAYAN:  Do you recall when you first saw
the train?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  There was, like I said, there
was a berm there.  This berm right here (indicating),
that was blocking my view.  I could not see the train
until about right here (indicating), and that is the
first time I had laid eyes on the train.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you estimate how long it took
before the train got there and the truck?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  It was just a matter of
seconds.  It was not very long at all.
          MR. PAYAN:  Thank you.
          That is all I have at this time.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Party questioning from the
Illinois Commerce Commission?
 EXAMINATION BY THE ILLINOIS COMMERCE COMMISSION
          MR. STEAD:  Mr. Fosburgh, I want to clarify
one thing.
          Had you seen or did you notice if the warning
lights at the crossing were on at the time of the
impact?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Not at time of impact, I
didn't.
          MR. STEAD:  You mentioned earlier that you
had noticed the truck.
          Was most of your concentration fixed on that
truck?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, it was.
          MR. STEAD:  Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  The Brotherhood of
Locomotive Engineers?
               EXAMINATION BY THE
       BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS
          MR. WALPERT:  Mr. Fosburgh, have you ever
been over that crossing before?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I did.
          MR. WALPERT:  How many times?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  It was only two or three other
times I had been across it.
          MR. WALPERT:  Have you ever seen the gates
activated and down?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I have.
          MR. WALPERT:  How many times?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Once.
          The other time, I was stopped by a train
coming by.
          MR. WALPERT:  Those are all the questions I
have.  Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  United Transportation Union?
          MR. DWYER:  No questions, Mr. Chairman.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Melco?
          MR. MARSHALL:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Amtrak?
          MR. BULLOCK:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Canadian National/Illinois
Central?
           EXAMINATION BY THE CANADIAN
        NATIONAL/ILLINOIS CENTRAL RAILROAD
          MR. ED HARRIS:  Mr. Fosburgh, in line with
the comments that you have just made, you had mentioned
that you were concentrating on following the truck?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  As you were following the
truck, you also mentioned that as he crossed your line
of vision directly adjacent to where your truck was
parked, you thought he was doing 10 to 15 miles per
hour at that point in time?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, roughly about that.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  You also mentioned, Mr.
Fosburgh, that you did see that the brake lights of the
truck had come on at the grade crossing?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  You did not see the
activation of the signals?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No, I did not.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  Did you see or did you hear
the whistle of the train?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No, I did not.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  You did hear the truck
shifting gears going down McKnight Road?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  When he was right next to me.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  Mr. Fosburgh, did you see the
glow of the headlight in the distance over the berm
that you referenced?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  I really was not paying
attention, not from that direction.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  As you were following the
truck, you indicated you saw the brake lights come on
the truck.
          Why do you think the driver put on his brake
lights?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  I don't know.
          I touch my brakes whenever I go over a
railroad track too just to slow down a little bit in
case they are a little rough.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  In reference to your line of
vision as you were standing adjacent to your rig there
inside the steel parking lot, you had clear sight to
that grade crossing?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I did.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  If you saw that trailer's
brake lights applied up to that grade crossing, what
you are saying, again, is you did not see any
activation lights, any bells on it.
          You did not hear any bells on the crossing?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No, I did not.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  You did not see the gates in
motion whatsoever?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  The gates were not down at
all.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  You think possibly focusing
on the trailer and the brake lights itself or the
over-extended load that you may have missed that?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  I could have missed the lights
flashing, but I could not miss those gates going down
because the truck never made any abrupt moves like he
was moving to miss anything.  He just stayed in his
lane that he was in.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  We have no further questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Federal Railroad
Administration?
          MR. BLACKMORE:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Federal Highway
Administration?
EXAMINATION BY THE FEDERAL HIGHWAY ADMINISTRATION
          MR. UMBS:  Just one question.
          Aubrey, where was the truck when the lights
went on?
          Can you just point that out?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  The lights?
          MR. UMBS:  When the brake lights went on,
where was he?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  The front of his cab was right
here (indicating).  Right before he went over the
tracks, I seen the brake lights illuminate for a brief
second or two, and then he proceeded across the tracks.
          MR. UMBS:  Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you, sir.
          Mr. Sweedler?
       EXAMINATION BY THE BOARD OF INQUIRY
          MR. SWEEDLER:  Could I ask that Exhibit 2E
and then 2F be shown on the screen.  I have one
question for Mr. Fosburgh.  Both of these exhibits are
looking east and they show that -- you can put the next
one up too -- and they show that both of the gates are
broken.
          When you were watching the truck crossing the
crossing at any other time, did you notice or have any
information that you could share with us that might
help us understand how these gates were broken?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          I never even noticed the gates.  When I came
in, you know, they were not on or anything, so I never
noticed if they were already broken or was it broken
from the accident.
          MR. SWEEDLER:  Thank you, Mr. Fosburgh.
          That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Claude Harris?
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Mr. Fosburgh, you
mentioned earlier in your testimony about the extended
load on the accident truck.
          Did this appear to you to cause any
maneuvering problems for the driver of that truck?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  It could affect turns because
it also hung off the front of the trailer too.  It was
a very long load, about maybe two, a foot or two foot
off the front of the trailer, so it made it pretty
close to the cab of the truck.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Did he have any
difficulty turning on to McKnight Road?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          He took the turn really wide.  There was no
traffic, so he had plenty of room to maneuver out to
McKnight Road.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Did he appear to be
traveling slower than normal truck traffic on the
approach to the accident grade crossing?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          It was normal.  There was nothing different
about that.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Did you observe any sight
obstructions on the approach to the crossing?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Just that berm that is on the
left-hand side; as you come up to the tracks, there is
a berm up there.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Do you want to describe
where it was?
          Can we put back up Exhibit 2A?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  This right here (indicating)
is like a mound of dirt that was there at the time, but
I can't see how it would obstruct right here.  It
obstructed my view over here.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Is that your view towards
the approaching train or your view to the grade
crossing itself?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  My view to the train.
          I was over here, and I could only see this
much of it (demonstrating).
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  You could clearly see the
crossing itself?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I could.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Dunn?
          MR. DUNN:  Earlier in a presentation by one
of our investigators, he said the normal procedure for
trucks is to swing in the lot and park them, I guess,
and then leave.
          Since he didn't have the tarp, he just pulled
out, got on to the scales, and pulled right out?
          Is that what he did?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, he did.
          MR. DUNN:  He didn't swing in the lot at all;
right?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No, he did not.
          MR. DUNN:  What is a Jake brake?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  A Jake brake, it causes
compression in the engines so it slows down the truck,
you know.  You may even use them when you are going
down a mountain so you don't overheat your brakes.
          MR. DUNN:  It has something to do with the
engine more than, what, than with the brake shoes?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. DUNN:  Did you know the accident truck
driver, or have you had conversations with him since
this accident?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No, I have not.
          MR. DUNN:  Do you know of any statements or
were you privy to any statements where he said that the
lights did come on prior to going or at the crossing?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No, I was not.
          MR. DUNN:  Did you say that the gates or
lights never came on, and it was two hours later when
you came back that you noticed them down?
          Is that what you said?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  The gates were not down, and I
never noticed them being down until two or three hours
after I had came back to my truck.  I noticed the
lights and gates were -- the lights were flashing and
the gates were down.
          MR. DUNN:  I am talking about during the
emergency response.
          The gates were not down at that time?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  I don't know.
          I was never down there.  I was always over by
the wreckage.  I was never down in this area
(indicating).
          MR. DUNN:  That was my next question.
          How did you get from where your truck was --
if you would, use the pointer -- to where you started
to help?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  That other driver and I, we
ran here (indicating).  There is a fence right here.
We jumped over the fence, and we went right over here
to where the main fire was and started helping people
out.
          MR. DUNN:  Emergency response questions:
          How long did it take before the emergency
responders started to show and you were over there
helping?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Between five and ten minutes.
 It seemed like forever, but it was no longer than ten
minutes.  It was between five and ten.
          MR. DUNN:  How long did you stay helping?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  All the way up to where the
fire was completely out.  It was two or three in the
morning before I returned to my truck.
          MR. DUNN:  I know you gave it, but how many
times have you gone across that crossing?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Maybe a total of three.
          MR. DUNN:  Would you go over it at 20 miles
an hour and feel it was all right to go over that at 20
miles?
          I am just picking a speed out.
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. DUNN:  How fast do you think the truck
was moving when it was at the crossing?
          He hit his brakes, and you saw the brake
lights?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. DUNN:  How fast do you think he was doing
when that happened?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Probably between 15 and 20
miles an hour.
          MR. DUNN:  Those are all the questions I
have.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Lauby?
          MR. LAUBY:  Mr. Fosburgh, I have a couple of
questions.
          In your testimony, you say that you didn't
notice the gates down.  I wanted to ask the opposite
part of that question.
          Did you notice the gates staying up?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  I never noticed the gates at
all.
          They were not down as he proceeded across.  I
never even noticed the lights.  I know I could not miss
the gates being down, but I could have missed the
lights being on.  I concentrated on the truck, but the
gates, I never seen the gates down at all.
          MR. LAUBY:  You didn't make a note, a mental
note that they were still up when the truck was
proceeding across either?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No, I did not.
          MR. LAUBY:  My other question has to do with
another truck driver that I believe was in the area, in
the lot.
          Was there anybody else in that lot at the
time?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, there was another driver.
          He was tarping his load as the accident
occurred.  He was facing the same way I was, but he was
out of his truck, and I believe he was on the passenger
side of his truck, which blocked his view.
          Because of his load and everything, he could
not see.  He was right here (indicating), and I was
over here.  He was on the passenger side of his truck I
do believe because that is where he came running from
when we ran over towards the fence.
          MR. LAUBY:  Do you know what first alerted
him to the accident?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  He just said that he heard a
big bang, and that is what alerted him.
          MR. LAUBY:  The noise of the collision?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  Did he say anything to you
directly after the accident?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          MR. LAUBY:  Did you talk to him at all?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I did.
          They had made us move our trucks to the next
parking lot over, and we had slept there.  We had
talked in the morning.  We had coffee in the morning
too, but he never said anything to me.
          MR. LAUBY:  Did he talk at all about the
accident, about seeing anything during the accident?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No, not when he seen; just
what we had seen as we were helping people out.  That
was it.
          MR. LAUBY:  He didn't give you any
information about what he might have seen at the time
of the accident?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          MR. LAUBY:  Do you know who the other truck
driver was?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No; I never got his name.
          MR. LAUBY:  You have not seen him before that
or since?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          MR. LAUBY:  As far as picking up your load
from the steel factory, you were the first one to do
that; is that correct?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Out of the group of drivers
that was there, yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  Out of the three trucks we have
been talking about, my understanding is that you were
number one.  The accident truck driver was number two.
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No; he was number three.
          MR. LAUBY:  He was number three?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  Who was number two?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  The other driver that was in
the parking lot with me, he was number two.
          MR. LAUBY:  That was tarping his load?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  Thank you very much.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Are there any additional
questions from the parties?
          Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers?
           FURTHER EXAMINATION BY THE
       BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS
          MR. WALPERT:  Mr. Fosburgh, I have a couple
of follow-up questions.
          Did you hear the impact or the explosion?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, I did.
          MR. WALPERT:  Did you gauge it as extremely
loud?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes, it was.
          MR. WALPERT:  You stated earlier that what
drew your attention to the truck in the first place was
the over-sized load.
          Is that correct?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. WALPERT:  Was there any particular reason
for you to observe the truck all the way to the
crossing which, I think you said, was 75 to a hundred
yards away?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  When I started driving -- I
have only been driving about seven or eight years -- I
started in over-sized loads.  I was hauling over-sized
loads for my first company.  I have not hauled an
over-sized load in about five years now.
          It drew my attention because that was the
first thing I was put into as a truck driver starting
out is pulling over-sized loads.
          MR. WALPERT:  The final question, Mr.
Fosburgh, is just to clarify it in my mind.
          When did you actually see the train the first
time?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Just as it came past the berm.
 It was only a few seconds before impact.
          MR. WALPERT:  Thank you.  That is all I have.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you, sir.
          Illinois Commerce Commission?
           FURTHER EXAMINATION BY THE
           ILLINOIS COMMERCE COMMISSION
          MR. STEAD:  Mr. Fosburgh, you mentioned that
had you heard the accident truck hit the Jake brake; is
that correct?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Yes.
          MR. STEAD:  How many times do you recall him
hitting that brake?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  Well, he doesn't hit the
brake.  It is a switch on the dashboard that you turn
off or on.
          I only heard it that one time.
          MR. STEAD:  Approximately how far from the
crossing was that truck located when he hit the brake?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  He was right across from me.
He was probably 75 yards from the crossing at the time.
          MR. STEAD:  With one application of that Jake
brake, approximately how much slower would that truck
have been going before and after application of that
Jake brake?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  It only slows down a few miles
at a time, and it sounded like he turned it off right
away.
          It is just a switch on the dashboard.  He
probably just forgot to turn it off or something.  I do
that quite a bit myself.
          MR. STEAD:  Did you see other vehicles in the
area pull into the entrance to the parking lot?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          That was the only vehicle I seen on the road
at the time, was the truck involved in the accident.
          MR. STEAD:  Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you, sir.
          Mr. Sweedler has another question.
   FURTHER EXAMINATION BY THE BOARD OF INQUIRY
          MR. SWEEDLER:  Just one follow-up:  Did you
happen to see the driver of the truck after the impact?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No, I didn't.
          MR. SWEEDLER:  Thank you, sir.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Fosburgh, I want to
thank you for participating and also to thank you for
your efforts after the accident in helping.  A lot of
people don't want to get involved in things like that,
and we appreciate it.  I have a general question from
reading one of your previous statements.
          Let me ask you:  What is the obligation of a
driver -- let's say the flashing lights were operating
-- what is the obligation of a driver, any driver on
approaching flashing lights on a crossing?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  I always thought that if they
are flashing, that means stop because that means there
is a train coming down the tracks.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Very good; I must have
misunderstood the other part.
          Do you have anything else you would like to
tell us if we have not asked you something you would
like to say?
          MR. FOSBURGH:  No.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  You just want to go home or
go back to the truck and make some money.  Thank you
very much for your participation.  You are excused.
          (Witness excused.)
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  We are going to need to take
a few minutes to get set up for the next witness.  We
are going to break for about ten minutes.  If you need
to run out and make a call or something, please do.
          (Recess from 2:27 p.m. to 2:44 p.m.)
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Dunn, are we ready?
          MR. DUNN:  The Safety Board calls as its next
witness, Mr. Luis Nieves.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Would you like to produce
yourself, Ma'am.  I didn't get a chance to introduce
myself to you.
          THE INTERPRETER:  Good afternoon.  I am
Kathleen Porosco (phonetic) Spanish Interpreter from
Britannia Bilingual Services (phonetic).
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  I would remind the parties
that we need to allow time in this process.
          You will be doing sequential; is that
correct?
          THE INTERPRETER:  Mainly consecutive.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Is there anything you need
to tell the people who will be asking the questions
that will help you?
          THE INTERPRETER:  Not really; that is fine.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  It sounds like you have done
this before.  Thank you.
          SWORN TESTIMONY OF LUIS NIEVES
          MR. DUNN:  Mr. Nieves, for the record, would
you please state and spell your first name.
          MR. NIEVES:  L-u-i-s, N-i-e-v-e-s.
          MR. DUNN:  Mr. Nieves, were you in the
Bourbonnais area on the evening of March 15, 1999?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. DUNN:  At this time, I will turn the
questioning over to our Technical Panel, Mr. Burt
Simon.
        EXAMINATION BY THE TECHNICAL PANEL
          MR. SIMON:  Good afternoon, Mr. Nieves.
          MR. NIEVES:  Good afternoon.
          MR. SIMON:  Mr. Nieves, I know this is the
fourth time you have been interviewed by the National
Transportation Safety Board.
          MR. NIEVES:  That is right.
          MR. SIMON:  I apologize on behalf of the
Safety Board for the many inconveniences you have
suffered.
          MR. NIEVES:  No problem; that is fine.
          MR. SIMON:  The information you possess and
your observations on the night of the accident are very
important to our investigation.  The reason we are here
again today is because we want to assure that there are
no misunderstandings in what you observed.
          Please do not hesitate to make any comments
you choose at any time, ask for a break, ask us to slow
down if we are going too fast, whatever we can do to
help you get through this.
          On the night of the accident in Bourbonnais,
why were you there?
          MR. NIEVES:  I was looking for the address.
A car was being sold in the area.
          MR. SIMON:  Did you intentionally come into
the area of the grade crossing near the steel plant
there?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          I thought it was some dealership where cars
were sold.
          MR. SIMON:  You were not lost at the time?
          MR. NIEVES:  Usually, yes.
          MR. SIMON:  Say it again.
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes, at that moment in that
area, I was lost.
          That was the last stop that I was going to
make before looking for the exit to get on my way.
          MR. SIMON:  Mr. Nieves, had you ever been
there before?
          MR. NIEVES:  No.
          MR. SIMON:  At the time of the accident, what
kind of an automobile were you driving?
          MR. NIEVES:  I was driving a brown 1988 Chevy
Caprice.
          MR. SIMON:  Were there any other automobiles
in the area?
          MR. NIEVES:  There was one ahead of me.
          MR. SIMON:  Were there any trucks in the
area?
          MR. NIEVES:  There was a truck like a
semi-trailer.
          MR. SIMON:  Where was it in relationship to
his vehicle?
          MR. NIEVES:  There was a car in front of me,
and in front of that car, there was the semi-trailer.
          MR. SIMON:  Can we put up Exhibit 2A, please?
          Mr. Nieves, is the laser pointer there on the
table?
          Do you recognize this area from the
photograph?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, it looks a little blurry.
          MR. SIMON:  Can it be improved a bit by our
audio-visual people perhaps?
          Is that any better?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes, it is a little better.
          MR. SIMON:  Do you see the crossing in the
foreground?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes, I see it where the cars
are.
          MR. SIMON:  Would he point to the grade
crossing with the laser pointer, please.
          (Witness complies.)
          MR. SIMON:  Thank you.
          MR. NIEVES:  There it is.
          MR. SIMON:  Other than being in his car near
that crossing, can he tell us where else he was in this
photograph?
          MR. NIEVES:  More or less around here
(indicating).
          MR. SIMON:  How did he get there?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, I thought that, that is --
I turned there from that turn, and I turned.
          MR. SIMON:  He made a U-turn into the parking
lot and came back out toward the crossing?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  The other automobile that he saw,
when he came out of the parking lot, did he fall in
behind it?
          MR. NIEVES:  Could you repeat that, please.
          MR. SIMON:  How did he get in position behind
the other automobile?
          MR. NIEVES:  Because those things were
sounding, you know, when the train is going to pass,
those lights were on.
          MR. SIMON:  The other automobile was stopped?
          MR. NIEVES:  It was stopped in front of me.
          MR. SIMON:  Where was that automobile when he
first saw it?
          MR. NIEVES:  It was stopped in front of me.
          MR. SIMON:  When you were stopped in your
car, how far were you from the grade crossing?
          MR. NIEVES:  More or less from here
(indicating) to that wall; I don't know how far it is
in meters.
          MR. SIMON:  The witness is indicating the
wall at the back of the room.  I would estimate it is
about, help me, 60 feet away?
          MR. NIEVES:  No; I don't think so.
          I think that it is a little less.
          MR. SIMON:  Perhaps 50 feet?
          MR. NIEVES:  Something like that, 50, 55.
          MR. SIMON:  Fifteen meters perhaps?
          THE INTERPRETER:  15 or 50?
          MR. SIMON:  Fifteen meters.
          MR. NIEVES:  I would say maybe 15 to 20
meters, but not that far, something like that.
          MR. SIMON:  When he stopped behind the other
automobile, what were the signals, the lights on the
grade crossing, doing?
          Were they illuminated?
          MR. NIEVES:  The indication was on.  The
barriers were coming down.
          MR. SIMON:  Where was the truck at that time?
          MR. NIEVES:  The semi-trailer?
          MR. SIMON:  Yes.
          MR. NIEVES:  It was approaching the rail.
          MR. SIMON:  Was there a time that, when the
gates descended, one of the gates came into contact
with the truck?
          MR. NIEVES:  When the truck, when the
barriers were coming down, the trailer was already
almost on top of the track and, yes, contact was made
with one crossing gate.
          MR. SIMON:  Can we put up the exemplar
trailer and the photograph of the exemplar trailer and
tractor, 2K?
          Mr. Nieves, can you indicate with the laser
pointer where you saw the gate contact the truck?
          MR. NIEVES:  The barrier more or less around
here (indicating) in this area.
          MR. SIMON:  On which side of the truck, the
left side, the right side, where?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, it was going like this
(indicating), to the right side.
          MR. SIMON:  That would not be on the driver's
side, but would be on the opposite side?
          MR. NIEVES:  The opposite side.
          MR. SIMON:  When the gate contacted the
truck, was the truck moving?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  What happened to the gate?
          MR. NIEVES:  I just saw a piece of that gate
thing, that barrier break off.
          MR. SIMON:  Please tell us what happened from
then.
          MR. NIEVES:  I just saw the trailer kind of
like make a jump to get out of that area where he was
because he could tell that he was already trapped
between those gates.
          MR. SIMON:  Was the jump made by an
acceleration of the trailer, the tractor trailer?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes, apparently, yes.
          MR. SIMON:  Did he see the brake lights
illuminate on the trailer at any time?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          He usually had them turned on.  It was
nighttime.
          MR. SIMON:  I don't mean the lights, the tail
lights that are always on.  I mean the stopping lights.
          Did he see those illuminate?
          MR. NIEVES:  The truth is I did not notice; I
didn't notice.
          MR. SIMON:  If you would, with the laser
pointer, show us what area of the truck was over the
tracks when the lights first illuminated.
          MR. NIEVES:  This area (indicating), more or
less.
          MR. SIMON:  I have to clarify now.  I am not
speaking of the lights on the gates.  I am speaking of
the flashing lights, the alternating lights that come
on before the gates drop.
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, there was the front of the
truck, let's assume -- like this little portion right
here, you were talking about when those things were
coming down; right?
          MR. SIMON:  No.
          I would like to know if the truck, if any
part of the truck was over the railroad tracks when the
first red lights came on.
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  What part of the truck was over
the tracks?
          MR. NIEVES:  This part (indicating).  It was
this part of the truck more or less that was already
ahead inside of the tracks.
          MR. SIMON:  That is when the first red signal
appeared?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  In what position was the truck on
McKnight Road, on the street?
          Was it in the center, to the right, to the
left, or any combination?
          MR. NIEVES:  It was more or less in the
middle of the roadway, almost in the middle of the
roadway.
          MR. SIMON:  Tell Mr. Nieves, if you would, to
please leave his chair and meet me at this exhibit in
front of our table.
          Mr. Nieves, would you please place your car
and the car that was in front of you on this exhibit.
          MR. NIEVES:  That is the last two cars.
          Is that what you mean?
          MR. SIMON:  Your car and the car in front of
you.
          To help you along now, the truck would have
been moving in this direction, and this is the steel
plant (indicating).  In his previous testimony, he
indicated he turned around and came out in this
direction (indicating).
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, I am saying that because I
was going like this (indicating).  I am speaking of
this.  Let us assume that this is the plant where I
turned around, and I am going this way.  I am telling
you exactly the way that I was going, and I am
referring to the direction in which I was going.
          MR. SIMON:  Before the accident?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  After the accident, where was he
stopped?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, the way that I am looking
at this, the way it seems to me, this is kind of like
turned around this way.
          MR. SIMON:  Have him come over and stand next
to me.
          MR. NIEVES:  It is this section over here
that I don't understand how it is drawn.
          MR. SIMON:  Maybe I can help by showing him
the direction the train was traveling.
          MR. NIEVES:  I am still a little lost.
          MR. SIMON:  Did the train come from your left
or your right?
          MR. NIEVES:  The train was coming from my
left, the way that I was headed like this (indicating).
          MR. SIMON:  What you have done is confuse the
direction you were traveling.  The train was traveling
in this direction, which is south.  The truck was
moving in this direction, and if I may, I must assume
that these two cars, and this would have been your car,
would have been behind the truck.
          I apologize for taking that liberty, but I
think we are dealing with a bit of confusion, and I
apologize for probably causing some of it.
          Does this help?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  We know that the train was moving
in this direction.  If the train came from your left,
then your car must have been along this road somewhere
here.
          Do we agree or not?
          MR. NIEVES:  More or less.
          I had already crossed the path that crosses
over there coming out of the factory.
          MR. SIMON:  Please put in position the truck
when the lights first came on, when the red lights
first came on.
          (Witness complies.)
          MR. NIEVES:  The tractor trailer truck was
more less around here (indicating) already getting into
the area of the barriers.
          MR. SIMON:  Let me see if I can indicate that
he is showing it essentially on the center line of the
roadway in an eastbound direction with two vehicles
behind it.
          Please put the truck in position.  These can
be moved.  Please put the truck in position and show me
where the gate contacted the truck.
          MR. NIEVES:  When it made contact?
          MR. SIMON:  When it made contact with the
trailer.
          (Witness complies.)
          MR. NIEVES:  More or less around here like
this (indicating).
          MR. SIMON:  Where was your car parked?
          MR. NIEVES:  Mine was behind this car that is
in front.
          MR. SIMON:  Could he please put the train and
the truck in the position that he saw at the time of
the collision.
          (Witness complies.)
          MR. NIEVES:  More or less around here like
this (indicating).
          MR. SIMON:  Did you see the other gate in
operation?
          MR. NIEVES:  The truth?  No; I don't
remember, but this one was lowered (indicating).
          MR. SIMON:  After the collision, what did you
do?
          MR. NIEVES:  I turned around and went back.
          MR. SIMON:  Do you remember what the car in
front of you did?
          MR. NIEVES:  It turned around immediately and
left also.
          MR. SIMON:  Show me how.
          MR. NIEVES:  I went back, and this car
turned, you know, like this (demonstrating), and we
both headed in the same direction, but the road was
blocked.  So, we went back, and I just remember that we
came out through this canal, this canal area.
          It was the type of a road, well, the car was
jerking around a lot.  I was just following the other
one.
          MR. SIMON:  After the accident, where was the
train?
          MR. NIEVES:  What do you mean?
          MR. SIMON:  After the accident, was there a
train blocking the track like this?
          MR. NIEVES:  There were a lot of them.  I
just saw a big dust cloud, and yes, apparently you
could see that everything was blocked.
          MR. SIMON:  Blocked by the train?
          MR. NIEVES:  Blocked by the train, yes.
          MR. SIMON:  Did you see the truck driver
after the accident, this truck driver?
          MR. NIEVES:  No, I didn't see that.
          I only saw the truck that jumped over to one
side.  That is all I saw.  This (indicating) jumped
over to one side, and this one turned around like this,
and it came to land like this.
          MR. SIMON:  You did not see the truck driver
exit the truck?
          MR. NIEVES:  I didn't see anything.
          I just saw that the truck was like this
(demonstrating) apparently with the door half opened,
something like that.
          MR. SIMON:  How did you see that if the train
was blocking the track, the body of the train?
          MR. NIEVES:  Not all of the tracks were
turned.
          MR. SIMON:  I don't understand what he means.
          MR. NIEVES:  Not all of the tracks were
turned; that is, turned like this (indicating), knocked
down like this.
          MR. SIMON:  How did he see this truck if
there was a train car sitting across the street?
          MR. NIEVES:  As I repeat, not all of them
were turned over.  Some of them were kind of down on
their sides, and you can see it from underneath.
          MR. SIMON:  That explains your view of this
truck; is that correct?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          Not all of them were completely fallen over.
 Some of them were stuck like this (demonstrating) and
the others --
          MR. SIMON:  Do you remember which way you
drove out?
          MR. NIEVES:  I don't remember.
          I just remember that I turned to the right,
and I came out.  There was a lot of dust, and I let
myself be guided by the lights on the car in front of
me.  I just know that my car jumped in a very strange,
alarming way.
          MR. SIMON:  Because the road was bad, did
your car jump?
          MR. NIEVES:  The conditions of the roadway.
          MR. SIMON:  Is there anything that you would,
while we are standing here at this exhibit, is there
anything more that you would like to say about this?
          MR. NIEVES:  No; just that when I saw that
accident, I got very nervous and upset and I just
wanted to leave.  I just wanted to get out of there.
          MR. SIMON:  I understand.
          Are there any members of the panel that would
like to ask a question while Mr. Nieves is standing
here?
          MR. LAUBY:  I think Mr. Payan had a question.
          MR. PAYAN:  I would like to, before he
leaves, ask some questions.
          MR. SIMON:  Please.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you clear all the vehicles,
please, and just give him one car?
          Before we begin, I would like to make sure he
understands our drawing.  This here is McKnight Road
(indicating), and these two are the tracks.  This is
the dirt road.  This right here is the parking lot, and
this is one of the entrances and this is the other.
          Now, can I start from the first time he
crossed the track?
          If you can, give him a car and have him walk
us the whole way through the first time you cross the
tracks going into the plant.
          THE INTERPRETER:  The first time the witness
crossed the tracks?
          MR. PAYAN:  Yes.
          MR. NIEVES:  I came in this way.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you take us all the way --
how he made the turn and at what time he saw the truck?
          THE INTERPRETER:  And what?
          MR. PAYAN:  What time he saw the trailer.
          MR. NIEVES:  When I first came in, there was
nothing here.  I came in this direction
(demonstrating), and I was on my way in here.  I
thought that it was a car dealership.
          MR. PAYAN:  The first time he went through,
the gates were not activated?
          MR. NIEVES:  They were not activated.
          Everything was normal.
          MR. PAYAN:  Between the gates and here, had
he seen the trailer yet?
          MR. NIEVES:  There were other trailers parked
in the lot.
          MR. PAYAN:  When he made his turn, he didn't
have to wait for anybody?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, I came in, I turned around
up to the very edge.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you show us how?
          MR. NIEVES:  I made this whole entire turn,
the whole turn, and then I came out.  By the time that
I was coming out here, the truck was already coming
out.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you put it where he first saw
the tractor trailer?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, I was coming more or less
around here (indicating) --
          MR. PAYAN:  Was he in the middle of the road?
          MR. NIEVES:  -- when I saw him.
          MR. PAYAN:  Was he in the middle of the road
to one side or the other?
          THE INTERPRETER:  "He," the witness?
          MR. PAYAN:  The tractor trailer.
          MR. NIEVES:  What do you mean on the side,
outside?
          MR. PAYAN;  Was it in the right lane, left
lane, or in the middle?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, it was in the right lane.
          MR. PAYAN:  What did he do after that?
          MR. NIEVES:  I came out of here, and from
here, from this direction, there was a car coming.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can he show us where the other
car was?
          MR. NIEVES:  I was around here like this when
the other car passed by.  I went around the car, and I
positioned myself here (indicating).
          MR. PAYAN:  Could he see the gates at that
time or the lights?
          MR. NIEVES:  As this was approaching, it was
approaching, the lights were already making that noise.
          MR. PAYAN:  How about the gates?
          MR. NIEVES:  The barriers were coming down.
          MR. PAYAN:  The car in front of him and his
car, what did he do?
          MR. NIEVES:  This car moved to behind the
trailer and I as well, but this trailer continued on
moving.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can he continue?
          Could he see the train by that time?
          MR. NIEVES:  You could not see it, but you
could hear that whistle.
          MR. PAYAN:  Then what happened?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, the lights were already --
the trailer was already on top, on top.  The trailer
was not exactly going along its path.  It did like this
(demonstrating).  He tried to avoid this little thing
here because he was already up on top.
          MR. PAYAN:  The car behind him, could he see
them?
          What did they do?
          MR. NIEVES:  We were not moving.
          MR. PAYAN:  From the time that you stopped
behind him, it didn't move, the car in front of you?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, we were completely, you
know, we thought that he was maybe going to pass us
because this thing was already down, coming down.
          MR. PAYAN;  What do you mean "pass us"?
          MR. NIEVES:  To avoid or to pass.
          MR. PAYAN:  He swerved to avoid the gate?
          THE INTERPRETER:  Who?
          MR. PAYAN:  The truck swerved to avoid the
gate?
          MR. NIEVES:  To avoid breaking this
(indicating), I think.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you take us through what
happened next?
          MR. NIEVES:  This is coming down, the trailer
does like this (demonstrating) and goes around like
this, like this.  This thing even hit on those
materials that were on it, and it broke.
          MR. PAYAN:  Then what?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, the train went by, this
jumped (indicating) this.  Before the train went by, I
saw the trailer jump.
          MR. PAYAN:  Was that before or after the gate
came down on it?
          MR. NIEVES:  When the gates were lowered.
          MR. PAYAN:  When it hit the truck?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. PAYAN:  The train, at any time, can the
train be seen at this time?
          MR. NIEVES:  You could not see the train, but
you could see the light, the train light.
          MR. PAYAN:  Why could you see the light and
not the train, the headlight?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, of course, because it was
nighttime.
          MR. PAYAN:  Could he see directly?
          I mean he could see the headlight, not the
glow?
          MR. NIEVES:  The glow of the light.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can he estimate how far away it
was?
          MR. NIEVES:  I could not tell you; I really
could not tell you.
          There were some trees or some bushes there,
and you could not see it very well.
          MR. PAYAN:  Both of the cars were still
stopped?
          MR. NIEVES:  When the accident happened, no.
          MR. PAYAN:  At this time, where the truck is,
he still --
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes, yes, we were stopped.
          MR. PAYAN:  Where was the truck and the train
when he first saw them?
          MR. NIEVES:  More or less around here
(indicating).
          MR. PAYAN:  I meant the train and the truck.
          When the train first came into view, could he
position the truck also?
          MR. NIEVES:  More or less like this.
          MR. PAYAN:  Could he see the train before or
after he saw the truck jump?
          MR. NIEVES:  Could you repeat that, please.
          MR. PAYAN:  When he saw the truck jump, could
the train also be seen?
          MR. NIEVES:  No.
          MR. PAYAN:  After the truck got hit, can he
show us what the cars did using the model?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, this one left.  It got up
on the grass and turned around right here.  We went
back.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can you show us with the model?
          His car, where did he turn around?
          MR. NIEVES:  I went back, and I turned here.
 I was following this one, which was out in front.
          MR. PAYAN:  Hold on.
          When he backed up into the entrance, he let
the other car go ahead of him?
          MR. NIEVES:  Let the other car out, yes, the
one that was in front of me.
          MR. PAYAN:  Then what happened?
          MR. NIEVES:  This car apparently turned
around here because it was blocked off here.  I kept on
following to see if I could get out, and I saw that it
was blocked off.  We came out.  I don't remember along
which road, but I do remember that there was wire;
there were some train crossing areas; and some very
ugly looking ditches.
          MR. PAYAN:  About how much time does he
estimate the first time he went through and he turned
and got behind the stopped car?
          MR. NIEVES:  Me?
          MR. PAYAN:  Yes, the time it took you to turn
around.
          MR. NIEVES:  About two or three minutes.
          MR. PAYAN:  Can he tell how fast the truck
was moving?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, we were speaking of the
fact that I was moving, the two cars.
          Are you speaking of the cars or of the
trailer?
          MR. PAYAN:  The trailer?
          MR. SIMON:  I think he is describing his
departure after the accident.
          MR. PAYAN:  Okay; maybe I will hold off on
that.
          Can he tell how long when he saw the lights
activate and when he saw the train hit the truck?
          MR. NIEVES:  Could you please repeat that.
          MR. PAYAN:  From the time he saw the lights
activate to the time the train hit the truck, can he
estimate the time?
          MR. NIEVES:  It was very few seconds, maybe
five or six seconds.
          MR. PAYAN:  Thank you.
          That is all I have right now.
          MR. SIMON:  You can go back to your seat.
Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Simon, do you have any
redirect?
          MR. SIMON:  One moment, please.
          (Pause in the proceedings.)
          MR. SIMON:  Would either the witness or the
interpreter like to take a break?
          THE INTERPRETER:  We are fine; thank you.
          MR. SIMON:  Mr. Nieves, why did you not stay
at the scene of the accident?
          MR. NIEVES:  At that moment, upon seeing an
accident like that, what I wanted was to leave there.
          MR. SIMON:  Why, Mr. Nieves, did you
subsequently contact the authorities, the NTSB and the
police?
          MR. NIEVES:  Because I wanted to tell them; I
wanted to get what I had seen off my chest.  I wanted
to tell them how the accident had been, and that was
the only reason.
          MR. SIMON:  I have no other questions.
          Thank you very much, Mr. Nieves.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  The Brotherhood of
Locomotive Engineers?
               EXAMINATION BY THE
       BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS
          MR. WALPERT:  Mr. Nieves, did you hear the
train whistle blowing?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. WALPERT:  Did you see the headlight
illuminated on the train?
          MR. NIEVES:  Do you mean that light that is
on there?  Yes, you could see that.
          MR. WALPERT:  How far from the crossing did
you first see the train?
          MR. NIEVES:  Approaching the crossing?
          MR. WALPERT:  Yes.
          MR. NIEVES:  About 15 or 20 meters.
          MR. WALPERT:  That was all I have for now.
Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  United Transportation Union?
  EXAMINATION BY THE UNITED TRANSPORTATION UNION
          MR. DWYER:  Mr. Nieves, is your testimony
that the gate from in front of the truck began to flash
and come down before the truck was on the crossing?
          THE INTERPRETER:  Would you mind repeating
that question?
          MR. DWYER:  Mr. Nieves, is your testimony
that prior to the truck being on the crossing, the
crossing gate light began to flash and the crossing
gate arm began to descend?
          THE INTERPRETER:  I am very sorry.  I am
going to request that it be repeated one more time.
          MR. DWYER:  Mr. Nieves, is your testimony
that prior to the truck going on to the railroad
crossing, the signal gate began to flash and the signal
gate arm began to descend?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. DWYER:  Is your testimony also, Mr.
Nieves, that the truck continued on to the crossing
despite the gate coming down and the light being on?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. DWYER:  Thank you.
          We have no questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Marshall?
       EXAMINATION BY MELCO TRANSFER, INC.
          MR. MARSHALL:  I guess I would like to see
the exact positioning of the truck, first, when the
lights started flashing, and second, when the gates
came down.
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, I already showed it to you
there.
          MR. MARSHALL:  I thought I saw two different
scenarios.
          MR. SIMON:  Would you like to ask these
questions one at a time?
          MR. MARSHALL:  First would be the exact
position of the tractor when the gate light started
flashing.
          (Witness demonstrates.)
          MR. MARSHALL:  I don't understand.
          MR. SIMON:  May I clarify?  I think perhaps
there is a misunderstanding that we need to work out
here.
          Mr. Nieves, it is difficult to see, but in
addition to this gate, there is another set of lights
here.  These lights flash alternately, and there are
also lights that are on the gate.  On this side of the
track, there is another set of lights that flash
alternately.  Also, there are lights that are on the
gate.
          Now, would you like to ask the question again
or should I?
          MR. MARSHALL:  Go ahead.
          MR. SIMON:  The question is:  These lights
that flash alternately, where was the truck at the time
those lights illuminated?
          MR. NIEVES:  More or less around here.
          MR. MARSHALL:  Next question.
          MR. NIEVES:  This was, this here (indicating)
had still not come down.  The red ones were already,
you know --
          MR. SIMON:  Flashing?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. SIMON:  The gates were up?
          MR. NIEVES:  The gates were already coming
down.
          MR. SIMON:  Next question?
          MR. MARSHALL:  My next question was:  Where
was the truck when the gates started down?
          MR. NIEVES:  It was already in the front.  It
was about like this (indicating) when they started to
come down.
          MR. MARSHALL:  Nothing else.
          MR. SIMON:  Thank you, Mr. Nieves.
          Should Mr. Nieves stay there at this exhibit
or go back to his chair?
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  If he doesn't mind.
          Mr. Nieves, if you don't mind standing there,
it might come up again.
          MR. NIEVES:  That is fine.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Thank you.
          Were you finished, Mr. Marshall?
          MR. MARSHALL:  Yes.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Amtrak?
          MR. BULLOCK:  We have no other questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Canadian National/Illinois
Central Railroad?
               EXAMINATION BY THE
   CANADIAN NATIONAL/ILLINOIS CENTRAL RAILROAD
          MR. ED HARRIS:  Mr. Nieves, thank you for
coming forward for your testimony.  I think that is
important.
           Mr. Nieves, you had stated that you had
stopped as well as the car ahead of you had stopped?
          MR. NIEVES:  Uh-huh, yes.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  The reason I assume you
stopped was because the lights were flashing.
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes because the trailer was in
front of us.
          MR. HARRIS:  Mr. Nieves, did you hear the
whistle?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes, I heard it.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  Did you see the glow of the
headlight?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  Did the truck drive around
the down gates?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. ED HARRIS:  No further questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Federal Railroad
Administration?
          MR. BLACKMORE:  No questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Federal Highway
Administration?
          MR. UMBS:  Mr. Chairman, I would like to
double check on something.
          The time between the lights first flashing
and the gates descending?
          MR. NIEVES:  Could you please repeat that.
          MR. UMBS:  The time from the lights flashing,
the lower lights flashing, to the gate coming down?
          MR. NIEVES:  Almost immediately.
          MR. UMBS:  Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  You are finished?
          MR. UMBS:  Yes.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Let me start with Mr.
Sweedler.  I'm sorry, Mr. Stead, I forgot the ICC.
          MR. STEAD:  That is okay.
 EXAMINATION BY THE ILLINOIS COMMERCE COMMISSION
          MR. STEAD:  Mr. Nieves, you mentioned
previously that you used the parking lot of the steel
company to turn your vehicle around; is that correct?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. STEAD:  You had to stop at the entrance
to wait for the other car to pass before you could get
back on the roadway; is that correct?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. STEAD:  Where was that second car when
you came back after you turned around and came back to
the entrance?
          MR. NIEVES:  Could you please repeat that.
          MR. STEAD:  Yes.
          Could you show us on the exhibit there in
front of you with the model cars where you were and
where the second car was when you had finished turning
around and headed back out towards the road.
          MR. NIEVES:  Where who was, the trailer?
          MR. STEAD:  Where the second car was.
          MR. NIEVES:  When I came out of the parking
lot?
          MR. STEAD:  Yes.
          MR. NIEVES:  More or less around here
(indicating).
          MR. STEAD:  What I am asking is where the car
was at the time he was wanting to leave the parking
lot.
          MR. NIEVES:  The car was passing when I came
out from here to there (indicating).
          MR. STEAD:  Before you entered back out on to
the roadway, how long did you have to wait before that
car passed in front of you?
          MR. NIEVES:  Four or five seconds.
          MR. STEAD:  At that same time when you were
leaving the parking lot, did you notice where the truck
was on the roadway?
          MR. NIEVES:  It was in front of the car which
was in front of me.
          MR. STEAD:  Again, if you could point on the
exhibit there where in relationship to the crossing or
to the service road or to the fence on that depiction,
could you show us approximately where that truck was?
          MR. NIEVES:  Do you mean the trailer?
          MR. STEAD:  Yes.
          As his car was still getting ready to exit
the parking lot, where was the truck?
          MR. NIEVES:  It was getting close to
approaching the tracks like this (indicating).
          MR. STEAD:  Could you place your car in the
parking lot entrance and show us where the truck was
when your car was in the parking lot entrance?
          MR. NIEVES:  Where the trailer was?
          MR. STEAD:  Yes.
          MR. NIEVES:  More or less around here, this
car here.
          MR. STEAD:  Did you notice that the truck
stopped at the tracks before it proceeded through the
crossing?
          MR. NIEVES:  No; the truth, no.
          MR. STEAD:  You are saying that you don't
remember the truck stopping before it entered the
crossing?
          MR. NIEVES:  The truck was going along fine
when these things here were still normal.  You could
not see the lights.
          MR. STEAD:  Where were you when you first
noticed the lights at the crossing flashing?
          MR. NIEVES:  I was more or less coming out of
here (indicating).
          MR. STEAD:  Is that the first time you
noticed that the lights were flashing?
          MR. NIEVES:  It was when it started when the
train whistle was heard.
          MR. STEAD:  No further questions.
  EXAMINATION CONDUCTED BY THE BOARD OF INQUIRY
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Sweedler?
          MR. SWEEDLER:  I have no questions, Mr.
Chairman.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Harris?
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  One question:  Mr.
Nieves, did you see the brake lights on the truck
illuminated at any time before it went over the
crossing?
          MR. NIEVES:  The truth is I don't remember
having seen them.  I do know I just know that the
lights were on.  I saw them.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Which lights are we
talking about?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, I would assume the front
ones; the back ones when they were lit, the reflection.
          MR. CLAUDE HARRIS:  Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Dunn?
          MR. DUNN:  Mr. Nieves, could you tell me
about how fast the truck was moving from the dirt road
to the crossing?
          MR. NIEVES:  Would you please repeat that.
          MR. DUNN:  Could he tell me how fast the
truck was moving between the area of the dirt road
right there and the railroad track?
          MR. NIEVES:  I didn't understand that.
          From which crossing, this one here
(indicating)?
          MR. DUNN:  As he is coming to the crossing.
          THE INTERPRETER:  As who is coming to  the
crossing?
          MR. DUNN:  The truck, how fast the truck is
moving.
          Can he tell me is it 10 miles an hour, 5
miles an hour, 20 miles an hour?
          MR. SIMON:  In this space, what speed?
          MR. NIEVES:  It was going at about seven
miles an hour.
          MR. DUNN:  Seven miles an hour?
          MR. NIEVES:  More or less.
          MR. DUNN:  Thank you very much.  I have no
further questions.
          MR. LAUBY:  Mr. Nieves, I have just a couple
of questions.
          Did you hear any bells ring as you approached
the crossing?
          MR. NIEVES:  The bells from these things when
they are getting ready to come down?
          MR. LAUBY:  Yes.
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. LAUBY:  Where was the truck positioned
when you first heard the bells?
          MR. NIEVES:  It was coming up to the
crossing.
          MR. LAUBY:  Did the crossing bells and the
lights come on simultaneously?
          MR. NIEVES:  What do you mean?
          MR. LAUBY:  At the same time.
          MR. NIEVES:  The bells and the lights?
          MR. LAUBY:  The bells and the flashing
warning lights for the crossing.
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          When you heard the bells, those lights
started flashing immediately, the red ones.
          MR. LAUBY:  One last line of questioning:
Did you notice any flashing lights on the locomotive?
          MR. NIEVES:  No.
          MR. LAUBY:  Thank you.
          That is all I have.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Are there any other
follow-up questions?
          Mr. Marshall?
   FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MELCO TRANSFER, INC.
          MR. MARSHALL:  I would like to have one more.
          Did the gates hit the truck while they were
lowering?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. MARSHALL:  Thank you.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Any others?
          Illinois Commerce Commission?
           FURTHER EXAMINATION BY THE
           ILLINOIS COMMERCE COMMISSION
          MR. STEAD:  Mr. Nieves, you mentioned several
times today that you used the parking lot to turn
around; is that correct?
          MR. NIEVES:  Yes.
          MR. STEAD:  When you were still in that
parking lot, did you see the truck going down the
roadway?
          MR. NIEVES:  When I turned, because I came up
to here -- this is a large area, a large area -- I saw
the truck once I was already coming out of here.
          MR. STEAD:  Could you place your car in the
parking lot at the point where you first saw the truck?
          MR. NIEVES:  I was coming around like this
(indicating).
          MR. STEAD:  At that point, could you also
show us exactly where the truck was when you first saw
it?
          MR. NIEVES:  More or less around here
(indicating).
          MR. STEAD:  Could you estimate for us how far
you were from the roadway at the point that you first
saw the truck?
          MR. NIEVES:  Well, as I have said, I was
coming out of the parking lot.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  I think we are getting
dangerously close to repeating questions.  This is the
same position he put the vehicles in the last time this
question was asked.
          Do you have another one?
          MR. STEAD:  Yes.
          We want to find out if he can give us an
estimate of the distance of how far he was at that
point to the roadway.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Well, sir, that diagram is
to scale and it will be on the videotape.  You can
measure it.
          MR. STEAD:  You are not going to allow me to
ask him that question?
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  You have already asked it,
and it has already been answered.
          MR. STEAD:  It has not been answered.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Unless you have a scale for
him to measure it, I would say you can measure it
later.  He has already positioned the vehicles in that
position once before.  I have been letting these repeat
questions go.
          MR. STEAD:  That is fine.  We will measure
that.  No further questions.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  You may take your seat back
on the other side, Mr. Nieves.
          Mr. Nieves, I would like to thank you very
much for your participation, for taking the time off
today and coming over to answer these questions.  I
know that it is very frustrating sometimes to have to
do the same thing all over again, and you were very
patient with us.
          We no longer have any further questions for
you today, and you are free to go wherever you like,
but thank you very much for coming by.
          MR. NIEVES:  Glad to do it.
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  Mr. Dunn will come over and
meet with you.  Thank you very much.
          (Witness excused.)
          CHAIRMAN BLACK:  This will be the last
witness today since it took so long.
          If any of the media are still with us back
here, Mr. Nieves and also Mr. Fosburgh have cited that
there were other witnesses there who have not come
forward.
          It is not too late for us to get testimony
from those witnesses.  There should be a truck driver
somewhere who was putting a tarpaulin over his load
that Mr. Fosburgh described.  We would really like to
speak with him.
          Certainly the people who were in the car that
Mr. Nieves described in front of him could be of help
in substantiating or refuting the testimony we have
heard today.  So, I make the appeal again that these
people should contact us.
          We are at the Wyndham Ambassador West Hotel.
 If you would call for anyone from the Safety Board, we
will be more than happy to talk with you.  With that,
today's session is adjourned.  Thank you.
          (Whereupon, at 4:09 p.m., the proceedings
were adjourned to be reconvened the following day,
Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 9:00 a.m.)
             CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
          I certify that the foregoing is a correct
transcript from the record of proceedings in the
above-entitled matter.
____________________________    September 21, 1999
Elizabeth Hudson Telson
Executive Reporting Company, Inc.
	EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC
	301-565-0064