From lubell at nist.gov  Fri Oct  8 17:31:58 2004
From: lubell at nist.gov (Josh Lubell)
Date: Fri Oct  8 16:40:44 2004
Subject: [step-os] STEP Modules Repository EXPRESS Model (STEPmod)
	Specification
Message-ID: <4167074E.7010309@nist.gov>

I created an initial vesion of documentation for the XML schema for 
EXPRESS models that the STEP Modules Respository uses. Typical module 
developers probably won't be terribly interested, but this may be useful 
for implementers of STEP software tools as well as those developing XSLT 
for the modules repository.

The URL is http://stepmod.sourceforge.net/express_model_spec/

I created the documentation in a "Java Doc"-like manner by first 
converting the EXPRESS model DTD into RELAX NG, adding annotations 
documenting the elements and attributes, and using XSLT to transform the 
RELAX NG structures, front matter, and documentation to HTML.

The source code is in stepmod/doc/spec in the CVS repository on SourceForge.

Feedback is welcome.

Josh
From lubell at nist.gov  Wed Oct 13 15:47:41 2004
From: lubell at nist.gov (Josh Lubell)
Date: Wed Oct 13 14:55:47 2004
Subject: [step-os] updated version of STEPmod EXPRESS model documentation
Message-ID: <416D865D.2070707@nist.gov>

I added documentation for more EXPRESS constructs and fixed some display 
problems with Internet Explorer. I also added a link to the stepmod home 
page (http://stepmod.sourceforge.net) pointing to the documentation.

The updated document is at 
http://stepmod.sourceforge.net/express_model_spec/

Josh

-- 
Joshua Lubell
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8263
Gaithersburg MD 20899-8263, USA
Phone: 1-301-975-3563, Fax: 1-301-975-4694
Email: lubell@nist.gov

From golux at comcast.net  Wed Oct 13 16:00:56 2004
From: golux at comcast.net (Stephen Waterbury)
Date: Wed Oct 13 15:10:12 2004
Subject: [step-os] updated version of STEPmod EXPRESS model documentation
In-Reply-To: <416D865D.2070707@nist.gov>
References: <416D865D.2070707@nist.gov>
Message-ID: <416D8978.10102@comcast.net>

Josh Lubell wrote:
> I added documentation for more EXPRESS constructs and fixed some display 
> problems with Internet Explorer. I also added a link to the stepmod home 
> page (http://stepmod.sourceforge.net) pointing to the documentation.
> 
> The updated document is at 
> http://stepmod.sourceforge.net/express_model_spec/

I just skimmed the document -- nice work!  It looks very clear and
well organized.

Thanks for doing this, Josh!

Cheers,
Steve

From david.price at eurostep.com  Mon Oct 18 07:06:19 2004
From: david.price at eurostep.com (David Price)
Date: Mon Oct 18 06:19:12 2004
Subject: [step-os] FW: SF
Message-ID: <000001c4b502$7ed84040$2101a8c0@esukpc20>

Anyone know anything about this?
David

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Spiby [mailto:Phil.Spiby@Eurostep.com] 
Sent: 18 October 2004 11:26
To: Rob Bodington; Nigel Shaw; David Price
Subject: FW: 


We may need to consider the issues discussed in this article, before we
depend too heavily on SourceForge.
 
Phil
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Mats Lindeblad [mailto:mats@lindeblad.se] 
Sent: 16 October 2004 18:55
To: phil.spiby@eurostep.com
Cc: fredrik.wanman@volvo.com; mats.lindeblad@volvo.com
Subject: 



Phil,

 

How open is sourceforge?

 

Check out the following article:

 <http://www.fsfeurope.org/news/article2001-10-20-01.en.html>
http://www.fsfeurope.org/news/article2001-10-20-01.en.html

 

Regards,

Mats

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From edbark at nist.gov  Mon Oct 18 12:02:56 2004
From: edbark at nist.gov (Ed Barkmeyer)
Date: Mon Oct 18 11:10:19 2004
Subject: [step-os] FW: SF
In-Reply-To: <000001c4b502$7ed84040$2101a8c0@esukpc20>
References: <000001c4b502$7ed84040$2101a8c0@esukpc20>
Message-ID: <4173E930.4060206@nist.gov>

David Price wrote:
> Anyone know anything about this?
> ...     
>     Check out the following article:
> 
>     http://www.fsfeurope.org/news/article2001-10-20-01.en.html

A quick look at this says that it is OLD NEWS.  The original of this 
article was posted 11.11.2001!!!  (The English version is dated July 
2004, but the translations have earlier dates.)  The earliest of the 
translations on the site is in Spanish from Feb 2002, and is not 
substantially different in content from the most recent revision of the 
English text. The Spanish version also claims that the Savannah server 
will be available "at the end of the year".  So whatever the problem may 
be, it began about July of 2001.

It is my personal opinion that the author of this piece was justifiably 
concerned about the legal wrangle with SourceForge, in that he had 
contributed to the SourceForge toolkit and was in the process of 
launching a "competitive" site -- the Savannah site -- and had doubtless 
taken the 2001 edition of the SourceForge tools as part of his software 
base for the Savannah site.  And I imagine that arrangements with VA 
Linux on the subject of the SourceForge software maintenance toolkit are 
rather more complicated than the other freeware arrangements.  But I 
don't see this as a concern for most of us.

I don't know anything about the current state of export from 
SourceForge, but I am sure it has been upgraded since the end of 2001.
If export is generally problematic and has gotten more difficult in the 
last few years, that may be a more serious concern.  But export of the 
maintenance record, export of all current configurations, and export of 
a single snapshot of the code package are also three entirely different 
concerns.

Transferring maintenance of a software package from one system to 
another is like transferring maintenance of a mechanical design from one 
PDM to another.  The only approach likely to succeed is to transfer one 
baseline, or one set of baselines, to the new system, build the 
configuration management structures on the new system, and continue from 
there.  Anything else is too much dependent on the internal structure of 
configuration and change management in the two PDM systems.  To transfer 
those structures, you have to define an exchange standard and formalize 
the intended business practice in terms of that standard.  That is why 
the STEP PDM Schema, and why there are assorted CDIF, ISO and OMG 
standards in the software engineering area.  But those SE standards have 
conflicting models (probably matching various native models), and it may 
be a whole new software project to render the Sourceforge maintenance 
and configuration models into one of those standard forms.

It is my impression that the issue that prompted the original posting in 
late 2001 was "transferring maintenance" in "native mode" for the 
SourceForge maintenance tools.  And I repeat, I don't think that is a 
problem for the open-source STEP promulgation work.

I could be completely wrong about where Dachary was coming from, and 
others of you may disagree about the significance to the STEP-os work. 
I do suggest that we get better-educated information before we start 
worrying...

-Ed

-- 
Edward J. Barkmeyer                        Email: edbark@nist.gov
National Institute of Standards & Technology
Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8264                Tel: +1 301-975-3528
Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8264                FAX: +1 301-975-4694

"The opinions expressed above do not reflect consensus of NIST,
  and have not been reviewed by any Government authority."
From edbark at nist.gov  Mon Oct 18 12:04:41 2004
From: edbark at nist.gov (Ed Barkmeyer)
Date: Mon Oct 18 11:12:04 2004
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [step-os] SourceForge]]
Message-ID: <4173E999.7030407@nist.gov>



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [step-os] SourceForge]
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:55:21 -0400
From: David Flater <dflater@nist.gov>
To: Ed Barkmeyer <edbark@nist.gov>
References: <4173E10B.8030408@nist.gov>

In a message dated 2004-10-18 11:28-0400, Ed Barkmeyer wrote:
> Dave,
> 
> My reading on this is that it is old news, and the original author was 
> in an unusual position.  But you may be able to shed more light on this.

The changes seem to affect only people who are involved in the
software that *is* Sourceforge, as opposed to open source projects
that are hosted *on* Sourceforge.  The copyright grab seems to me
little different than what happened when Mosaic became Netscape (long
before Mozilla walked the earth).  Perhaps VA Linux is trying harder
to collect documentation so it will hold up in court, but Netscape
never got a release from the organization(s) that supported Mosaic and
it held up anyway.  (Probably if you just say "trade secret" and
"proprietary" a lot and withhold all the evidence, you get out of jail
free.)

On the face of it, OMG should see this as an opportunity to schmooze
with another struggling software company rather than a threat to its
hosted projects.  If a threat does exist, it's not in this article you
sent me to but in the fine print of the Sourceforge hosting agreement.
Somebody should read it carefully to make sure there is nothing in
there that could be used to make a grab for hosted projects.

You practially need a full-time lawyer to guard against this stuff
nowadays.  Every agreement has a loophole to the effect of "...and you
agree to accept any future changes to this agreement if they are
published and you don't react within [insanely short time period while
you are on vacation]."  Who can keep up?

-- 
David Flater, National Institute of Standards and Technology, U.S.A.



-- 
Edward J. Barkmeyer                        Email: edbark@nist.gov
National Institute of Standards & Technology
Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8264                Tel: +1 301-975-3528
Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8264                FAX: +1 301-975-4694

"The opinions expressed above do not reflect consensus of NIST,
  and have not been reviewed by any Government authority."
From golux at comcast.net  Mon Oct 18 12:10:02 2004
From: golux at comcast.net (Stephen Waterbury)
Date: Mon Oct 18 11:23:26 2004
Subject: [step-os] FW: SF
In-Reply-To: <000001c4b502$7ed84040$2101a8c0@esukpc20>
References: <000001c4b502$7ed84040$2101a8c0@esukpc20>
Message-ID: <4173EADA.4030809@comcast.net>

David Price wrote:
> Anyone know anything about this?

That was the first I had seen it.  However, I know that several
open-source projects only put their releases on SourceForge,
rather than relying on SF project management features.  That
way, it is easier to move to another site (or their own) if
necessary.  Twisted (http://twistedmatrix.com) is one of
them -- I use Twisted, which is open-source, and I never have
to visit SF for it because they offer it from their own site
(which is sponsored by DivMod, a project that also uses
Twisted, on which some of the developers of Twisted work).

Cheers,
Steve


From radack at ctc.com  Mon Oct 18 12:26:29 2004
From: radack at ctc.com (Radack, Gerald)
Date: Mon Oct 18 11:33:51 2004
Subject: [step-os] FW: SF
Message-ID: <58BD7BA1E81ED54E88F2266E149D93D630529F@ctcjst-mail1.ad.ctcgsc.org>

At the direction of SC4, the SC4 Secretariat has already set up a server to mirror the modules site on SourceForge as a backup in case SourceForge went away.  Given the uncertaintly over licensing, couldn't we make that the development site, and use SourceForge for releases (or not at all)?

Are we really dependent on proprietary SourceForge features, or could we use the last public release of SourceForge, or other open source software to run the site?

At least if we had the master copy on the SC4 site, we would know that the SC4 site is up to date.

At present, the SC4 Modules Mirror page on SC4ONLINE has the following cryptic message:

Repository last updated (latest tarfile received at): 2003-07-23 22:44:22

Local repository last updated (last successful HTML build) at: 2004-10-11 23:10:32

Does that mean that no source has been transferred from SourceForge to SC4ONLINE for over a year?

				Gerry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of 
> Stephen Waterbury
> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:10 PM
> To: STEP Open-Source
> Subject: Re: [step-os] FW: SF
> 
> 
> David Price wrote:
> > Anyone know anything about this?
> 
> That was the first I had seen it.  However, I know that several
> open-source projects only put their releases on SourceForge,
> rather than relying on SF project management features.  That
> way, it is easier to move to another site (or their own) if
> necessary.  Twisted (http://twistedmatrix.com) is one of
> them -- I use Twisted, which is open-source, and I never have
> to visit SF for it because they offer it from their own site
> (which is sponsored by DivMod, a project that also uses
> Twisted, on which some of the developers of Twisted work).
> 
> Cheers,
> Steve
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov
> http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 

From Nettles at aticorp.org  Mon Oct 18 12:40:35 2004
From: Nettles at aticorp.org (Nettles, Darla)
Date: Mon Oct 18 11:47:54 2004
Subject: [step-os] FW: SF
Message-ID: <03642EC064085F4DBB3B40DB5D82F2A2016FC5C6@SCRA_NT1.SCRA.ORG>



Rather than a true mirror, I believe the SC4 modules page originally was to house an html build of the repository to facilitate browsing. However, browsers can now read xml and xsl without requiring plug-ins.
--Darla

-----Original Message-----
From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
[mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of Radack, Gerald
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:26 PM
To: STEP Open-Source
Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF


At the direction of SC4, the SC4 Secretariat has already set up a server to mirror the modules site on SourceForge as a backup in case SourceForge went away.  Given the uncertaintly over licensing, couldn't we make that the development site, and use SourceForge for releases (or not at all)?

Are we really dependent on proprietary SourceForge features, or could we use the last public release of SourceForge, or other open source software to run the site?

At least if we had the master copy on the SC4 site, we would know that the SC4 site is up to date.

At present, the SC4 Modules Mirror page on SC4ONLINE has the following cryptic message:

Repository last updated (latest tarfile received at): 2003-07-23 22:44:22

Local repository last updated (last successful HTML build) at: 2004-10-11 23:10:32

Does that mean that no source has been transferred from SourceForge to SC4ONLINE for over a year?

				Gerry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of 
> Stephen Waterbury
> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:10 PM
> To: STEP Open-Source
> Subject: Re: [step-os] FW: SF
> 
> 
> David Price wrote:
> > Anyone know anything about this?
> 
> That was the first I had seen it.  However, I know that several
> open-source projects only put their releases on SourceForge,
> rather than relying on SF project management features.  That
> way, it is easier to move to another site (or their own) if
> necessary.  Twisted (http://twistedmatrix.com) is one of
> them -- I use Twisted, which is open-source, and I never have
> to visit SF for it because they offer it from their own site
> (which is sponsored by DivMod, a project that also uses
> Twisted, on which some of the developers of Twisted work).
> 
> Cheers,
> Steve
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov
> http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 

_______________________________________________
step-os mailing list
step-os@step.nasa.gov
http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os

From david.price at eurostep.com  Mon Oct 18 12:54:22 2004
From: david.price at eurostep.com (David Price)
Date: Mon Oct 18 12:01:54 2004
Subject: [step-os] FW: SF
In-Reply-To: <58BD7BA1E81ED54E88F2266E149D93D630529F@ctcjst-mail1.ad.ctcgsc.org>
Message-ID: <000701c4b533$1e4d79d0$2101a8c0@esukpc20>

SCOnline is never going to support CVS as it's not a server for software
development. As far as a backup of STEPMod itself, each developer has that
on his/her laptop... at least we each have a baseline set of XML at a given
point in time so I'm not that worried about that part either. From Ed's
comments, I'm not sure we have any problem at all... that's why I asked if
anyone's seen that email/announcement or read the fine print.

As for the SC4 mirror, I know nothing....

David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov 
> [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of Radack, Gerald
> Sent: 18 October 2004 17:26
> To: STEP Open-Source
> Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> 
> 
> At the direction of SC4, the SC4 Secretariat has already set 
> up a server to mirror the modules site on SourceForge as a 
> backup in case SourceForge went away.  Given the uncertaintly 
> over licensing, couldn't we make that the development site, 
> and use SourceForge for releases (or not at all)?
> 
> Are we really dependent on proprietary SourceForge features, 
> or could we use the last public release of SourceForge, or 
> other open source software to run the site?
> 
> At least if we had the master copy on the SC4 site, we would 
> know that the SC4 site is up to date.
> 
> At present, the SC4 Modules Mirror page on SC4ONLINE has the 
> following cryptic message:
> 
> Repository last updated (latest tarfile received at): 
> 2003-07-23 22:44:22
> 
> Local repository last updated (last successful HTML build) 
> at: 2004-10-11 23:10:32
> 
> Does that mean that no source has been transferred from 
> SourceForge to SC4ONLINE for over a year?
> 
> 				Gerry
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov 
> > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of Stephen 
> > Waterbury
> > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:10 PM
> > To: STEP Open-Source
> > Subject: Re: [step-os] FW: SF
> > 
> > 
> > David Price wrote:
> > > Anyone know anything about this?
> > 
> > That was the first I had seen it.  However, I know that several 
> > open-source projects only put their releases on SourceForge, rather 
> > than relying on SF project management features.  That way, it is 
> > easier to move to another site (or their own) if necessary. 
>  Twisted 
> > (http://twistedmatrix.com) is one of them -- I use Twisted, 
> which is 
> > open-source, and I never have to visit SF for it because 
> they offer it 
> > from their own site (which is sponsored by DivMod, a 
> project that also 
> > uses Twisted, on which some of the developers of Twisted work).
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Steve
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > step-os mailing list
> > step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 

From radack at ctc.com  Mon Oct 18 13:25:00 2004
From: radack at ctc.com (Radack, Gerald)
Date: Mon Oct 18 12:32:27 2004
Subject: [step-os] FW: SF
Message-ID: <58BD7BA1E81ED54E88F2266E149D93D63052A0@ctcjst-mail1.ad.ctcgsc.org>

Dave:

> SCOnline is never going to support CVS as it's not a server for software development.

As Peter Pan would say, never say "never."

SC4ONLINE is a Web site intended to meet the needs of the SC4 community and its user base (right, Secretariat?).  If those needs include a CVS server, why couldn't that service be provided?  Do you think that running a CVS server is so difficult that the SC4 Secretariat could not do it?

Do the copies on people's laptops include all the old versions of files, configuration records, etc., or just the latest version?  I believe we have a requirement to be able to regenerate documentation for old baselines.  Otherwise, why are we now capturing configuration records with releases of module packages?

I recollect that the Secretariat was asked to set up a mirror so that if SourceForge went away, we could resume work with minimal interruption.

With regard to the HTML build, how can you have an up to date HTML build if you don't have a mirror, or at least a copy of the latest version of each file?

So can anybody tell me: Is the HTML build on SC4ONLINE in fact a build of the current state of the SourceForge repository, or the way it was 2003-07-23.

				Gerry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of David Price
> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:54 PM
> To: 'STEP Open-Source'
> Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> 
> 
> SCOnline is never going to support CVS as it's not a server 
> for software
> development. As far as a backup of STEPMod itself, each 
> developer has that
> on his/her laptop... at least we each have a baseline set of 
> XML at a given
> point in time so I'm not that worried about that part either. 
> From Ed's
> comments, I'm not sure we have any problem at all... that's 
> why I asked if
> anyone's seen that email/announcement or read the fine print.
> 
> As for the SC4 mirror, I know nothing....
> 
> David
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov 
> > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of 
> Radack, Gerald
> > Sent: 18 October 2004 17:26
> > To: STEP Open-Source
> > Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> > Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> > 
> > 
> > At the direction of SC4, the SC4 Secretariat has already set 
> > up a server to mirror the modules site on SourceForge as a 
> > backup in case SourceForge went away.  Given the uncertaintly 
> > over licensing, couldn't we make that the development site, 
> > and use SourceForge for releases (or not at all)?
> > 
> > Are we really dependent on proprietary SourceForge features, 
> > or could we use the last public release of SourceForge, or 
> > other open source software to run the site?
> > 
> > At least if we had the master copy on the SC4 site, we would 
> > know that the SC4 site is up to date.
> > 
> > At present, the SC4 Modules Mirror page on SC4ONLINE has the 
> > following cryptic message:
> > 
> > Repository last updated (latest tarfile received at): 
> > 2003-07-23 22:44:22
> > 
> > Local repository last updated (last successful HTML build) 
> > at: 2004-10-11 23:10:32
> > 
> > Does that mean that no source has been transferred from 
> > SourceForge to SC4ONLINE for over a year?
> > 
> > 				Gerry
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov 
> > > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of Stephen 
> > > Waterbury
> > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:10 PM
> > > To: STEP Open-Source
> > > Subject: Re: [step-os] FW: SF
> > > 
> > > 
> > > David Price wrote:
> > > > Anyone know anything about this?
> > > 
> > > That was the first I had seen it.  However, I know that several 
> > > open-source projects only put their releases on 
> SourceForge, rather 
> > > than relying on SF project management features.  That way, it is 
> > > easier to move to another site (or their own) if necessary. 
> >  Twisted 
> > > (http://twistedmatrix.com) is one of them -- I use Twisted, 
> > which is 
> > > open-source, and I never have to visit SF for it because 
> > they offer it 
> > > from their own site (which is sponsored by DivMod, a 
> > project that also 
> > > uses Twisted, on which some of the developers of Twisted work).
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > Steve
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > step-os mailing list
> > > step-os@step.nasa.gov 
http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 

_______________________________________________
step-os mailing list
step-os@step.nasa.gov
http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os

From david.price at eurostep.com  Mon Oct 18 13:41:00 2004
From: david.price at eurostep.com (David Price)
Date: Mon Oct 18 12:48:34 2004
Subject: [step-os] FW: SF
In-Reply-To: <58BD7BA1E81ED54E88F2266E149D93D63052A0@ctcjst-mail1.ad.ctcgsc.org>
Message-ID: <000001c4b539$a2465c60$2101a8c0@esukpc20>

Gerry,

First, I don't think the step-os exploder is where you're really going to
get answers to SC4/module/html build questions.

On the technical questions, no my laptop only has the latest and greatest.
Don't know where the baselines are stored, if anywhere except SF.

On the server question, I imagine SC4Online doesn't do it because it would
cost money and we already get that service for free elsewhere. *IF*
SourceForge becomes a problem, then somebody, somewhere will have to step
in. My email was not intended to give anyone any idea that we were nearing
that point. I was just curious if anyone knew more details about the
SF/commercial software issue. As Ed said, it seems that SF is not-a-problem
at the moment.

David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov 
> [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of Radack, Gerald
> Sent: 18 October 2004 18:25
> To: STEP Open-Source
> Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> 
> 
> Dave:
> 
> > SCOnline is never going to support CVS as it's not a server for 
> > software development.
> 
> As Peter Pan would say, never say "never."
> 
> SC4ONLINE is a Web site intended to meet the needs of the SC4 
> community and its user base (right, Secretariat?).  If those 
> needs include a CVS server, why couldn't that service be 
> provided?  Do you think that running a CVS server is so 
> difficult that the SC4 Secretariat could not do it?
> 
> Do the copies on people's laptops include all the old 
> versions of files, configuration records, etc., or just the 
> latest version?  I believe we have a requirement to be able 
> to regenerate documentation for old baselines.  Otherwise, 
> why are we now capturing configuration records with releases 
> of module packages?
> 
> I recollect that the Secretariat was asked to set up a mirror 
> so that if SourceForge went away, we could resume work with 
> minimal interruption.
> 
> With regard to the HTML build, how can you have an up to date 
> HTML build if you don't have a mirror, or at least a copy of 
> the latest version of each file?
> 
> So can anybody tell me: Is the HTML build on SC4ONLINE in 
> fact a build of the current state of the SourceForge 
> repository, or the way it was 2003-07-23.
> 
> 				Gerry
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov 
> > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of David Price
> > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:54 PM
> > To: 'STEP Open-Source'
> > Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> > Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> > 
> > 
> > SCOnline is never going to support CVS as it's not a server
> > for software
> > development. As far as a backup of STEPMod itself, each 
> > developer has that
> > on his/her laptop... at least we each have a baseline set of 
> > XML at a given
> > point in time so I'm not that worried about that part either. 
> > From Ed's
> > comments, I'm not sure we have any problem at all... that's 
> > why I asked if
> > anyone's seen that email/announcement or read the fine print.
> > 
> > As for the SC4 mirror, I know nothing....
> > 
> > David
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> > > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of 
> > Radack, Gerald
> > > Sent: 18 October 2004 17:26
> > > To: STEP Open-Source
> > > Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> > > Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> > > 
> > > 
> > > At the direction of SC4, the SC4 Secretariat has already set
> > > up a server to mirror the modules site on SourceForge as a 
> > > backup in case SourceForge went away.  Given the uncertaintly 
> > > over licensing, couldn't we make that the development site, 
> > > and use SourceForge for releases (or not at all)?
> > > 
> > > Are we really dependent on proprietary SourceForge features,
> > > or could we use the last public release of SourceForge, or 
> > > other open source software to run the site?
> > > 
> > > At least if we had the master copy on the SC4 site, we would
> > > know that the SC4 site is up to date.
> > > 
> > > At present, the SC4 Modules Mirror page on SC4ONLINE has the
> > > following cryptic message:
> > > 
> > > Repository last updated (latest tarfile received at):
> > > 2003-07-23 22:44:22
> > > 
> > > Local repository last updated (last successful HTML build)
> > > at: 2004-10-11 23:10:32
> > > 
> > > Does that mean that no source has been transferred from
> > > SourceForge to SC4ONLINE for over a year?
> > > 
> > > 				Gerry
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> > > > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of Stephen 
> > > > Waterbury
> > > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:10 PM
> > > > To: STEP Open-Source
> > > > Subject: Re: [step-os] FW: SF
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > David Price wrote:
> > > > > Anyone know anything about this?
> > > > 
> > > > That was the first I had seen it.  However, I know that several
> > > > open-source projects only put their releases on 
> > SourceForge, rather
> > > > than relying on SF project management features.  That way, it is
> > > > easier to move to another site (or their own) if necessary. 
> > >  Twisted
> > > > (http://twistedmatrix.com) is one of them -- I use Twisted,
> > > which is
> > > > open-source, and I never have to visit SF for it because
> > > they offer it
> > > > from their own site (which is sponsored by DivMod, a
> > > project that also
> > > > uses Twisted, on which some of the developers of Twisted work).
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Steve
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > step-os mailing list
> > > > step-os@step.nasa.gov
> http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > step-os mailing list
> > step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 

From lubell at nist.gov  Mon Oct 18 16:22:27 2004
From: lubell at nist.gov (Josh Lubell)
Date: Mon Oct 18 15:29:49 2004
Subject: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge
Message-ID: <41742603.5050307@nist.gov>

Various folks have been discussing bath an article raising concerns 
about the openness of SourceForge as well as whether the SC4 Secretariat 
needs to take any action to safeguard the module repository.

The two principal SourceForge services we have been using are CVS 
repository hosting and email exploder hosting. Since the stepmod-devel 
exploder will soon be migrated to the Secretariat, the only remaining 
concern is the CVS repository.

CVS is an open source tool, and there are lots of other CVS hosting 
venues besides SourceForge. It would be easy to switch to one of them at 
some point in the future if we had to. However, in order to do so we 
would have to copy our entire repository as it exists on the SourceForge 
CVS server to the new host. A repository snapshot on a developer's hard 
drive lacks the version information and change history recorded in the 
repository on the CVS server.

SourceForge creates nightly "tarballs" (.tar.bz archives) for each 
project's CVS repository. Although we don't do this, it would be smart 
to download the stepmod tarball on a regular basis and back it up so 
that, in  the event we have to make a sudden switch from SourceForge to 
another host, little work will be lost.

If the SC4 Secretariat were to assume the responsibility for mainting 
this backup, we would be protected from a sudden SourceForge disruption. 
And maintaining the backup would be an easy task for the Secretariat to 
take on.

For more information on backing up SourceForge projects, read 
http://sourceforge.net/project/admin/backup.php?group_id=27487.

Josh

-- 
Joshua Lubell
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8263
Gaithersburg MD 20899-8263, USA
Phone: 1-301-975-3563, Fax: 1-301-975-4694
Email: lubell@nist.gov

From brazyj at dcnicn.com  Mon Oct 18 16:22:37 2004
From: brazyj at dcnicn.com (brazyj)
Date: Mon Oct 18 15:38:01 2004
Subject: [step-os] FW: SourceForge
Message-ID: <36F19C69F0F7BC4981C55DD1E472AE1F01DE20@earth2.dcnicn.com>

Dave and Gerry,

   I agree with Gerry and Peter Pan about the "never say never" business
and I agree with Dave about a normal business case. But then, SC4ONLINE
does not follow a normal business case.  

Let me provide a little clarification about SC4ONLINE resources. While
the SC4ONLINE web-server is a Bill Gates (Win2K server OS - hosted on a
Dell 26xx rack mount server), the STEP Modules Repository Mirror (part
of SC4ONLINE - http://www.tc184-sc4.org/private/STEP_Modules_Mirror/ )
is hosted on a Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES Server (also a Dell 26xx Rack
Mount Server) - and yes we have installed CVS, but it is currently
dormant (i.e. no active users).  

I have heard that Subversion (http://subversion.tigris.org/) is an
open-source version control system that is a compelling replacement for
CVS in the open source community (according to their web page).

If you think, you would like to try out Subversion, please let me know.




Kind Regards,
Joe


Joseph P Brazy
Sr Systems Engineer/SC4ONLINE Administrator
LAMP/IDE Project
 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Price [mailto:david.price@eurostep.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 1:41 PM
To: 'STEP Open-Source'
Cc: SC4Sec
Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF

Gerry,

First, I don't think the step-os exploder is where you're really going
to
get answers to SC4/module/html build questions.

On the technical questions, no my laptop only has the latest and
greatest.
Don't know where the baselines are stored, if anywhere except SF.

On the server question, I imagine SC4Online doesn't do it because it
would
cost money and we already get that service for free elsewhere. *IF*
SourceForge becomes a problem, then somebody, somewhere will have to
step
in. My email was not intended to give anyone any idea that we were
nearing
that point. I was just curious if anyone knew more details about the
SF/commercial software issue. As Ed said, it seems that SF is
not-a-problem
at the moment.

David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov 
> [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of Radack, Gerald
> Sent: 18 October 2004 18:25
> To: STEP Open-Source
> Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> 
> 
> Dave:
> 
> > SCOnline is never going to support CVS as it's not a server for 
> > software development.
> 
> As Peter Pan would say, never say "never."
> 
> SC4ONLINE is a Web site intended to meet the needs of the SC4 
> community and its user base (right, Secretariat?).  If those 
> needs include a CVS server, why couldn't that service be 
> provided?  Do you think that running a CVS server is so 
> difficult that the SC4 Secretariat could not do it?
> 
> Do the copies on people's laptops include all the old 
> versions of files, configuration records, etc., or just the 
> latest version?  I believe we have a requirement to be able 
> to regenerate documentation for old baselines.  Otherwise, 
> why are we now capturing configuration records with releases 
> of module packages?
> 
> I recollect that the Secretariat was asked to set up a mirror 
> so that if SourceForge went away, we could resume work with 
> minimal interruption.
> 
> With regard to the HTML build, how can you have an up to date 
> HTML build if you don't have a mirror, or at least a copy of 
> the latest version of each file?
> 
> So can anybody tell me: Is the HTML build on SC4ONLINE in 
> fact a build of the current state of the SourceForge 
> repository, or the way it was 2003-07-23.
> 
> 				Gerry
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov 
> > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of David Price
> > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:54 PM
> > To: 'STEP Open-Source'
> > Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> > Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> > 
> > 
> > SCOnline is never going to support CVS as it's not a server
> > for software
> > development. As far as a backup of STEPMod itself, each 
> > developer has that
> > on his/her laptop... at least we each have a baseline set of 
> > XML at a given
> > point in time so I'm not that worried about that part either. 
> > From Ed's
> > comments, I'm not sure we have any problem at all... that's 
> > why I asked if
> > anyone's seen that email/announcement or read the fine print.
> > 
> > As for the SC4 mirror, I know nothing....
> > 
> > David
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> > > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of 
> > Radack, Gerald
> > > Sent: 18 October 2004 17:26
> > > To: STEP Open-Source
> > > Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> > > Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> > > 
> > > 
> > > At the direction of SC4, the SC4 Secretariat has already set
> > > up a server to mirror the modules site on SourceForge as a 
> > > backup in case SourceForge went away.  Given the uncertaintly 
> > > over licensing, couldn't we make that the development site, 
> > > and use SourceForge for releases (or not at all)?
> > > 
> > > Are we really dependent on proprietary SourceForge features,
> > > or could we use the last public release of SourceForge, or 
> > > other open source software to run the site?
> > > 
> > > At least if we had the master copy on the SC4 site, we would
> > > know that the SC4 site is up to date.
> > > 
> > > At present, the SC4 Modules Mirror page on SC4ONLINE has the
> > > following cryptic message:
> > > 
> > > Repository last updated (latest tarfile received at):
> > > 2003-07-23 22:44:22
> > > 
> > > Local repository last updated (last successful HTML build)
> > > at: 2004-10-11 23:10:32
> > > 
> > > Does that mean that no source has been transferred from
> > > SourceForge to SC4ONLINE for over a year?
> > > 
> > > 				Gerry
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> > > > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of Stephen 
> > > > Waterbury
> > > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:10 PM
> > > > To: STEP Open-Source
> > > > Subject: Re: [step-os] FW: SF
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > David Price wrote:
> > > > > Anyone know anything about this?
> > > > 
> > > > That was the first I had seen it.  However, I know that several
> > > > open-source projects only put their releases on 
> > SourceForge, rather
> > > > than relying on SF project management features.  That way, it is
> > > > easier to move to another site (or their own) if necessary. 
> > >  Twisted
> > > > (http://twistedmatrix.com) is one of them -- I use Twisted,
> > > which is
> > > > open-source, and I never have to visit SF for it because
> > > they offer it
> > > > from their own site (which is sponsored by DivMod, a
> > > project that also
> > > > uses Twisted, on which some of the developers of Twisted work).
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Steve
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > step-os mailing list
> > > > step-os@step.nasa.gov
> http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > step-os mailing list
> > step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 


From golux at comcast.net  Mon Oct 18 16:39:04 2004
From: golux at comcast.net (Stephen Waterbury)
Date: Mon Oct 18 15:47:31 2004
Subject: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge
In-Reply-To: <41742603.5050307@nist.gov>
References: <41742603.5050307@nist.gov>
Message-ID: <417429E8.8000102@comcast.net>

Josh Lubell wrote:

I second everything in Josh's message, and *especially*:

> SourceForge creates nightly "tarballs" (.tar.bz archives) for each 
> project's CVS repository. Although we don't do this, it would be smart 
> to download the stepmod tarball on a regular basis and back it up so 
> that, in  the event we have to make a sudden switch from SourceForge to 
> another host, little work will be lost.

YES!!  Not only to enable switching, but also to have another backup.
I think SourceForge is pretty trustworthy in this respect, but there
is a huge amount of work here and multiple backups are *always* a
good idea.

> If the SC4 Secretariat were to assume the responsibility for mainting 
> this backup, we would be protected from a sudden SourceForge disruption. 
> And maintaining the backup would be an easy task for the Secretariat to 
> take on.

I would additionally suggest that any organization that has a large
interest in the repository also set up a regular backup -- this would
include PDES, Inc. and PLCS, at least.

Steve

From rob.bodington at eurostep.com  Tue Oct 19 02:11:06 2004
From: rob.bodington at eurostep.com (Rob Bodington)
Date: Tue Oct 19 01:18:24 2004
Subject: [step-os] FW: SF
In-Reply-To: <000001c4b539$a2465c60$2101a8c0@esukpc20>
Message-ID: <000c01c4b5a2$6b59c070$6401a8c0@esukpc30>

Hi
SC4ONLINE "should" be doing nightly CVS update i.e. downloading the latest
versions of the files, building the HTML and making that available on SC4ONLINE,
and downloading a tar file of the stepmod CVS repository so that we could
install a new CVS repository if Sourceforge goes away.



Regards
Rob

-------------------------------------------   
Rob Bodington
Eurostep Limited
Web Page: http://www.eurostep.com http://www.share-a-space.com
Email: Rob.Bodington@eurostep.com
Phone: +44 (0)1454 270030
Mobile: +44 (0)7796 176 401



-----Original Message-----
From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
[mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of David Price
Sent: 18 October 2004 18:41
To: 'STEP Open-Source'
Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF

Gerry,

First, I don't think the step-os exploder is where you're really going to
get answers to SC4/module/html build questions.

On the technical questions, no my laptop only has the latest and greatest.
Don't know where the baselines are stored, if anywhere except SF.

On the server question, I imagine SC4Online doesn't do it because it would
cost money and we already get that service for free elsewhere. *IF*
SourceForge becomes a problem, then somebody, somewhere will have to step
in. My email was not intended to give anyone any idea that we were nearing
that point. I was just curious if anyone knew more details about the
SF/commercial software issue. As Ed said, it seems that SF is not-a-problem
at the moment.

David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov 
> [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of Radack, Gerald
> Sent: 18 October 2004 18:25
> To: STEP Open-Source
> Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> 
> 
> Dave:
> 
> > SCOnline is never going to support CVS as it's not a server for 
> > software development.
> 
> As Peter Pan would say, never say "never."
> 
> SC4ONLINE is a Web site intended to meet the needs of the SC4 
> community and its user base (right, Secretariat?).  If those 
> needs include a CVS server, why couldn't that service be 
> provided?  Do you think that running a CVS server is so 
> difficult that the SC4 Secretariat could not do it?
> 
> Do the copies on people's laptops include all the old 
> versions of files, configuration records, etc., or just the 
> latest version?  I believe we have a requirement to be able 
> to regenerate documentation for old baselines.  Otherwise, 
> why are we now capturing configuration records with releases 
> of module packages?
> 
> I recollect that the Secretariat was asked to set up a mirror 
> so that if SourceForge went away, we could resume work with 
> minimal interruption.
> 
> With regard to the HTML build, how can you have an up to date 
> HTML build if you don't have a mirror, or at least a copy of 
> the latest version of each file?
> 
> So can anybody tell me: Is the HTML build on SC4ONLINE in 
> fact a build of the current state of the SourceForge 
> repository, or the way it was 2003-07-23.
> 
> 				Gerry
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov 
> > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of David Price
> > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:54 PM
> > To: 'STEP Open-Source'
> > Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> > Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> > 
> > 
> > SCOnline is never going to support CVS as it's not a server
> > for software
> > development. As far as a backup of STEPMod itself, each 
> > developer has that
> > on his/her laptop... at least we each have a baseline set of 
> > XML at a given
> > point in time so I'm not that worried about that part either. 
> > From Ed's
> > comments, I'm not sure we have any problem at all... that's 
> > why I asked if
> > anyone's seen that email/announcement or read the fine print.
> > 
> > As for the SC4 mirror, I know nothing....
> > 
> > David
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> > > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of 
> > Radack, Gerald
> > > Sent: 18 October 2004 17:26
> > > To: STEP Open-Source
> > > Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> > > Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> > > 
> > > 
> > > At the direction of SC4, the SC4 Secretariat has already set
> > > up a server to mirror the modules site on SourceForge as a 
> > > backup in case SourceForge went away.  Given the uncertaintly 
> > > over licensing, couldn't we make that the development site, 
> > > and use SourceForge for releases (or not at all)?
> > > 
> > > Are we really dependent on proprietary SourceForge features,
> > > or could we use the last public release of SourceForge, or 
> > > other open source software to run the site?
> > > 
> > > At least if we had the master copy on the SC4 site, we would
> > > know that the SC4 site is up to date.
> > > 
> > > At present, the SC4 Modules Mirror page on SC4ONLINE has the
> > > following cryptic message:
> > > 
> > > Repository last updated (latest tarfile received at):
> > > 2003-07-23 22:44:22
> > > 
> > > Local repository last updated (last successful HTML build)
> > > at: 2004-10-11 23:10:32
> > > 
> > > Does that mean that no source has been transferred from
> > > SourceForge to SC4ONLINE for over a year?
> > > 
> > > 				Gerry
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> > > > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of Stephen 
> > > > Waterbury
> > > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:10 PM
> > > > To: STEP Open-Source
> > > > Subject: Re: [step-os] FW: SF
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > David Price wrote:
> > > > > Anyone know anything about this?
> > > > 
> > > > That was the first I had seen it.  However, I know that several
> > > > open-source projects only put their releases on 
> > SourceForge, rather
> > > > than relying on SF project management features.  That way, it is
> > > > easier to move to another site (or their own) if necessary. 
> > >  Twisted
> > > > (http://twistedmatrix.com) is one of them -- I use Twisted,
> > > which is
> > > > open-source, and I never have to visit SF for it because
> > > they offer it
> > > > from their own site (which is sponsored by DivMod, a
> > > project that also
> > > > uses Twisted, on which some of the developers of Twisted work).
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Steve
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > step-os mailing list
> > > > step-os@step.nasa.gov
> http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > step-os mailing list
> > step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 

_______________________________________________
step-os mailing list
step-os@step.nasa.gov
http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os


From rob.bodington at eurostep.com  Tue Oct 19 02:16:12 2004
From: rob.bodington at eurostep.com (Rob Bodington)
Date: Tue Oct 19 01:23:30 2004
Subject: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge
In-Reply-To: <41742603.5050307@nist.gov>
Message-ID: <000d01c4b5a3$2247e410$6401a8c0@esukpc30>

Hi
I believe that the secretariat downloads the tar ball that Josh is referring to.

Is that correct Joe?

Regards
Rob

-------------------------------------------   
Rob Bodington
Eurostep Limited
Web Page: http://www.eurostep.com http://www.share-a-space.com
Email: Rob.Bodington@eurostep.com
Phone: +44 (0)1454 270030
Mobile: +44 (0)7796 176 401



-----Original Message-----
From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
[mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of Josh Lubell
Sent: 18 October 2004 21:22
To: step-os@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
Subject: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge

Various folks have been discussing bath an article raising concerns 
about the openness of SourceForge as well as whether the SC4 Secretariat 
needs to take any action to safeguard the module repository.

The two principal SourceForge services we have been using are CVS 
repository hosting and email exploder hosting. Since the stepmod-devel 
exploder will soon be migrated to the Secretariat, the only remaining 
concern is the CVS repository.

CVS is an open source tool, and there are lots of other CVS hosting 
venues besides SourceForge. It would be easy to switch to one of them at 
some point in the future if we had to. However, in order to do so we 
would have to copy our entire repository as it exists on the SourceForge 
CVS server to the new host. A repository snapshot on a developer's hard 
drive lacks the version information and change history recorded in the 
repository on the CVS server.

SourceForge creates nightly "tarballs" (.tar.bz archives) for each 
project's CVS repository. Although we don't do this, it would be smart 
to download the stepmod tarball on a regular basis and back it up so 
that, in  the event we have to make a sudden switch from SourceForge to 
another host, little work will be lost.

If the SC4 Secretariat were to assume the responsibility for mainting 
this backup, we would be protected from a sudden SourceForge disruption. 
And maintaining the backup would be an easy task for the Secretariat to 
take on.

For more information on backing up SourceForge projects, read 
http://sourceforge.net/project/admin/backup.php?group_id=27487.

Josh

-- 
Joshua Lubell
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8263
Gaithersburg MD 20899-8263, USA
Phone: 1-301-975-3563, Fax: 1-301-975-4694
Email: lubell@nist.gov

_______________________________________________
step-os mailing list
step-os@step.nasa.gov
http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os


From howard.mason at baesystems.com  Tue Oct 19 07:15:48 2004
From: howard.mason at baesystems.com (Mason, Howard (UK))
Date: Tue Oct 19 10:41:27 2004
Subject: [step-os] FW: SF
Message-ID: <6A084F60D1BB8242B9FAC267863EB4FC012E975D@glkms0007.greenlnk.net>


We had a long debate about this at an earlier SC4 meeting, and I would like to summarise in order to clarify some of the incomplete statements made in the thread.

To manage the risk of Sourceforge disappearing or charging money, a CVS environment has been established on SC4ONLINE.  As Joe says, it is not used at present, but should be available for immediate use.

The Secretariat should meanwhile be downloading the Sourceforge repository on a daily basis so that we have a backup, as well as running the HTML extract to SC4ONLINE.

Could Joe please confirm this and explain the different date messages indicated by Gerry?

Thanks

Howard Mason

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Bodington [mailto:rob.bodington@eurostep.com]
Sent: 19 October 2004 07:11
To: 'STEP Open-Source'
Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF


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either from an external partner or the Global Internet.

     Keep this in mind if you answer this message.


Hi
SC4ONLINE "should" be doing nightly CVS update i.e. downloading the latest
versions of the files, building the HTML and making that available on SC4ONLINE,
and downloading a tar file of the stepmod CVS repository so that we could
install a new CVS repository if Sourceforge goes away.



Regards
Rob

------------------------------------------- 

Rob Bodington
Eurostep Limited
Web Page: http://www.eurostep.com http://www.share-a-space.com
Email: Rob.Bodington@eurostep.com
Phone: +44 (0)1454 270030
Mobile: +44 (0)7796 176 401



-----Original Message-----
From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
[mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of David Price
Sent: 18 October 2004 18:41
To: 'STEP Open-Source'
Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF

Gerry,

First, I don't think the step-os exploder is where you're really going to
get answers to SC4/module/html build questions.

On the technical questions, no my laptop only has the latest and greatest.
Don't know where the baselines are stored, if anywhere except SF.

On the server question, I imagine SC4Online doesn't do it because it would
cost money and we already get that service for free elsewhere. *IF*
SourceForge becomes a problem, then somebody, somewhere will have to step
in. My email was not intended to give anyone any idea that we were nearing
that point. I was just curious if anyone knew more details about the
SF/commercial software issue. As Ed said, it seems that SF is not-a-problem
at the moment.

David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov

> [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of Radack, Gerald
> Sent: 18 October 2004 18:25
> To: STEP Open-Source
> Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
>

>

> Dave:
>

> > SCOnline is never going to support CVS as it's not a server for

> > software development.
>

> As Peter Pan would say, never say "never."
>

> SC4ONLINE is a Web site intended to meet the needs of the SC4

> community and its user base (right, Secretariat?).  If those

> needs include a CVS server, why couldn't that service be

> provided?  Do you think that running a CVS server is so

> difficult that the SC4 Secretariat could not do it?
>

> Do the copies on people's laptops include all the old

> versions of files, configuration records, etc., or just the

> latest version?  I believe we have a requirement to be able

> to regenerate documentation for old baselines.  Otherwise,

> why are we now capturing configuration records with releases

> of module packages?
>

> I recollect that the Secretariat was asked to set up a mirror

> so that if SourceForge went away, we could resume work with

> minimal interruption.
>

> With regard to the HTML build, how can you have an up to date

> HTML build if you don't have a mirror, or at least a copy of

> the latest version of each file?
>

> So can anybody tell me: Is the HTML build on SC4ONLINE in

> fact a build of the current state of the SourceForge

> repository, or the way it was 2003-07-23.
>

> 				Gerry
>

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov

> > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of David Price
> > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:54 PM
> > To: 'STEP Open-Source'
> > Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> > Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> >

> >

> > SCOnline is never going to support CVS as it's not a server
> > for software
> > development. As far as a backup of STEPMod itself, each

> > developer has that
> > on his/her laptop... at least we each have a baseline set of

> > XML at a given
> > point in time so I'm not that worried about that part either.

> > From Ed's
> > comments, I'm not sure we have any problem at all... that's

> > why I asked if
> > anyone's seen that email/announcement or read the fine print.
> >

> > As for the SC4 mirror, I know nothing....
> >

> > David
> >

> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> > > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of

> > Radack, Gerald
> > > Sent: 18 October 2004 17:26
> > > To: STEP Open-Source
> > > Cc: sc4sec@tc184-sc4.org
> > > Subject: RE: [step-os] FW: SF
> > >

> > >

> > > At the direction of SC4, the SC4 Secretariat has already set
> > > up a server to mirror the modules site on SourceForge as a

> > > backup in case SourceForge went away.  Given the uncertaintly

> > > over licensing, couldn't we make that the development site,

> > > and use SourceForge for releases (or not at all)?
> > >

> > > Are we really dependent on proprietary SourceForge features,
> > > or could we use the last public release of SourceForge, or

> > > other open source software to run the site?
> > >

> > > At least if we had the master copy on the SC4 site, we would
> > > know that the SC4 site is up to date.
> > >

> > > At present, the SC4 Modules Mirror page on SC4ONLINE has the
> > > following cryptic message:
> > >

> > > Repository last updated (latest tarfile received at):
> > > 2003-07-23 22:44:22
> > >

> > > Local repository last updated (last successful HTML build)
> > > at: 2004-10-11 23:10:32
> > >

> > > Does that mean that no source has been transferred from
> > > SourceForge to SC4ONLINE for over a year?
> > >

> > > 				Gerry
> > >

> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> > > > [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of Stephen

> > > > Waterbury
> > > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:10 PM
> > > > To: STEP Open-Source
> > > > Subject: Re: [step-os] FW: SF
> > > >

> > > >

> > > > David Price wrote:
> > > > > Anyone know anything about this?
> > > >

> > > > That was the first I had seen it.  However, I know that several
> > > > open-source projects only put their releases on

> > SourceForge, rather
> > > > than relying on SF project management features.  That way, it is
> > > > easier to move to another site (or their own) if necessary.

> > >  Twisted
> > > > (http://twistedmatrix.com) is one of them -- I use Twisted,
> > > which is
> > > > open-source, and I never have to visit SF for it because
> > > they offer it
> > > > from their own site (which is sponsored by DivMod, a
> > > project that also
> > > > uses Twisted, on which some of the developers of Twisted work).
> > > >

> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Steve
> > > >

> > > >

> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > step-os mailing list
> > > > step-os@step.nasa.gov
> http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> > >

> >

> > _______________________________________________
> > step-os mailing list
> > step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> >

>

> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
>

> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
>


_______________________________________________
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step-os@step.nasa.gov
http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os



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From brazyj at dcnicn.com  Tue Oct 19 11:52:32 2004
From: brazyj at dcnicn.com (brazyj)
Date: Tue Oct 19 11:13:24 2004
Subject: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge
Message-ID: <36F19C69F0F7BC4981C55DD1E472AE1F0244C0@earth2.dcnicn.com>

Hi Rob and All,
  Yes, I think we need to check the download script as it is apparently
reporting the wrong download date for the tarfile.  Date of latest
tarball (zip) file is 2004-10-11? (this is the date displayed when you
hover over the linked zip file at:
http://www.tc184-sc4.org/private/STEP_Modules_Mirror/ 

Kind Regards,
Joe


Joseph P Brazy
Sr Systems Engineer/SC4ONLINE Administrator
LAMP/IDE Project
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Bodington [mailto:rob.bodington@eurostep.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 2:16 AM
To: 'STEP Open-Source'
Cc: SC4Sec
Subject: RE: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge

Hi
I believe that the secretariat downloads the tar ball that Josh is
referring to.

Is that correct Joe?

Regards
Rob

-------------------------------------------   
Rob Bodington
Eurostep Limited
Web Page: http://www.eurostep.com http://www.share-a-space.com
Email: Rob.Bodington@eurostep.com
Phone: +44 (0)1454 270030
Mobile: +44 (0)7796 176 401



-----Original Message-----
From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
[mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of Josh Lubell
Sent: 18 October 2004 21:22
To: step-os@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
Subject: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge

Various folks have been discussing bath an article raising concerns 
about the openness of SourceForge as well as whether the SC4 Secretariat

needs to take any action to safeguard the module repository.

The two principal SourceForge services we have been using are CVS 
repository hosting and email exploder hosting. Since the stepmod-devel 
exploder will soon be migrated to the Secretariat, the only remaining 
concern is the CVS repository.

CVS is an open source tool, and there are lots of other CVS hosting 
venues besides SourceForge. It would be easy to switch to one of them at

some point in the future if we had to. However, in order to do so we 
would have to copy our entire repository as it exists on the SourceForge

CVS server to the new host. A repository snapshot on a developer's hard 
drive lacks the version information and change history recorded in the 
repository on the CVS server.

SourceForge creates nightly "tarballs" (.tar.bz archives) for each 
project's CVS repository. Although we don't do this, it would be smart 
to download the stepmod tarball on a regular basis and back it up so 
that, in  the event we have to make a sudden switch from SourceForge to 
another host, little work will be lost.

If the SC4 Secretariat were to assume the responsibility for mainting 
this backup, we would be protected from a sudden SourceForge disruption.

And maintaining the backup would be an easy task for the Secretariat to 
take on.

For more information on backing up SourceForge projects, read 
http://sourceforge.net/project/admin/backup.php?group_id=27487.

Josh

-- 
Joshua Lubell
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8263
Gaithersburg MD 20899-8263, USA
Phone: 1-301-975-3563, Fax: 1-301-975-4694
Email: lubell@nist.gov

_______________________________________________
step-os mailing list
step-os@step.nasa.gov
http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os


From radack at ctc.com  Tue Oct 19 12:50:33 2004
From: radack at ctc.com (Radack, Gerald)
Date: Tue Oct 19 11:57:51 2004
Subject: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge
Message-ID: <58BD7BA1E81ED54E88F2266E149D93D60B3710@ctcjst-mail1.ad.ctcgsc.org>

Joe:

If you are referring to the file http://neptune.dcnicn.com/stepmod-html-20041011.zip which is linked from the hyperlink "Module Repository (HTML) Zipped (65MB)", this appears to be a collection of the generated HTML, not the tarball from SourceForge, which should contain XML.  Could you add a link to the actual tarball from SourceForge so that the WG3 and WG12 quality coordinators (I wish) and/or conveners can verify that the process is taking place?

Also, according to its name, the HTML zip file is still a week old, whereas the process of downloading the tarball and generating the HTML is supposed to happen on a daily basis.

				Gerry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of brazyj
> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 11:53 AM
> To: Rob Bodington; STEP Open-Source
> Cc: SC4Sec
> Subject: RE: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge
> 
> 
> Hi Rob and All,
>   Yes, I think we need to check the download script as it is 
> apparently
> reporting the wrong download date for the tarfile.  Date of latest
> tarball (zip) file is 2004-10-11? (this is the date displayed when you
> hover over the linked zip file at:
> http://www.tc184-sc4.org/private/STEP_Modules_Mirror/ 
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Joe
> 
> 
> Joseph P Brazy
> Sr Systems Engineer/SC4ONLINE Administrator
> LAMP/IDE Project
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Bodington [mailto:rob.bodington@eurostep.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 2:16 AM
> To: 'STEP Open-Source'
> Cc: SC4Sec
> Subject: RE: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge
> 
> Hi
> I believe that the secretariat downloads the tar ball that Josh is
> referring to.
> 
> Is that correct Joe?
> 
> Regards
> Rob
> 
> -------------------------------------------   
> Rob Bodington
> Eurostep Limited
> Web Page: http://www.eurostep.com http://www.share-a-space.com
> Email: Rob.Bodington@eurostep.com
> Phone: +44 (0)1454 270030
> Mobile: +44 (0)7796 176 401
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of Josh Lubell
> Sent: 18 October 2004 21:22
> To: step-os@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> Subject: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge
> 
> Various folks have been discussing bath an article raising concerns 
> about the openness of SourceForge as well as whether the SC4 
> Secretariat
> 
> needs to take any action to safeguard the module repository.
> 
> The two principal SourceForge services we have been using are CVS 
> repository hosting and email exploder hosting. Since the 
> stepmod-devel 
> exploder will soon be migrated to the Secretariat, the only remaining 
> concern is the CVS repository.
> 
> CVS is an open source tool, and there are lots of other CVS hosting 
> venues besides SourceForge. It would be easy to switch to one 
> of them at
> 
> some point in the future if we had to. However, in order to do so we 
> would have to copy our entire repository as it exists on the 
> SourceForge
> 
> CVS server to the new host. A repository snapshot on a 
> developer's hard 
> drive lacks the version information and change history 
> recorded in the 
> repository on the CVS server.
> 
> SourceForge creates nightly "tarballs" (.tar.bz archives) for each 
> project's CVS repository. Although we don't do this, it would 
> be smart 
> to download the stepmod tarball on a regular basis and back it up so 
> that, in  the event we have to make a sudden switch from 
> SourceForge to 
> another host, little work will be lost.
> 
> If the SC4 Secretariat were to assume the responsibility for mainting 
> this backup, we would be protected from a sudden SourceForge 
> disruption.
> 
> And maintaining the backup would be an easy task for the 
> Secretariat to 
> take on.
> 
> For more information on backing up SourceForge projects, read 
> http://sourceforge.net/project/admin/backup.php?group_id=27487.
> 
> Josh
> 
> -- 
> Joshua Lubell
> National Institute of Standards and Technology
> Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
> 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8263
> Gaithersburg MD 20899-8263, USA
> Phone: 1-301-975-3563, Fax: 1-301-975-4694
> Email: lubell@nist.gov
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov
> http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov
> http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 

From lubell at nist.gov  Tue Oct 19 12:51:57 2004
From: lubell at nist.gov (Josh Lubell)
Date: Tue Oct 19 11:59:15 2004
Subject: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge
In-Reply-To: <36F19C69F0F7BC4981C55DD1E472AE1F0244C0@earth2.dcnicn.com>
References: <36F19C69F0F7BC4981C55DD1E472AE1F0244C0@earth2.dcnicn.com>
Message-ID: <1098204717.4175462ddd1f3@webmail.nist.gov>

Joe,

The sc4online modules repository mirror does not appear to have the CVS
repository tarball. It does have a zip file containing a recent HTML build of
modules repository, but that is a completely different animal.

The CVS repository tarball is a .tar.bz2 file containing the contents of a
project's CVS repository. It is generated by SourceForge nightly and is made
available for download.

Josh

Quoting brazyj <brazyj@dcnicn.com>:

> Hi Rob and All,
>   Yes, I think we need to check the download script as it is apparently
> reporting the wrong download date for the tarfile.  Date of latest
> tarball (zip) file is 2004-10-11? (this is the date displayed when you
> hover over the linked zip file at:
> http://www.tc184-sc4.org/private/STEP_Modules_Mirror/ 
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Joe
> 
> 
> Joseph P Brazy
> Sr Systems Engineer/SC4ONLINE Administrator
> LAMP/IDE Project
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Bodington [mailto:rob.bodington@eurostep.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 2:16 AM
> To: 'STEP Open-Source'
> Cc: SC4Sec
> Subject: RE: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge
> 
> Hi
> I believe that the secretariat downloads the tar ball that Josh is
> referring to.
> 
> Is that correct Joe?
> 
> Regards
> Rob
> 
> -------------------------------------------   
> Rob Bodington
> Eurostep Limited
> Web Page: http://www.eurostep.com http://www.share-a-space.com
> Email: Rob.Bodington@eurostep.com
> Phone: +44 (0)1454 270030
> Mobile: +44 (0)7796 176 401
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> [mailto:step-os-bounces@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov] On Behalf Of Josh Lubell
> Sent: 18 October 2004 21:22
> To: step-os@ned.gsfc.nasa.gov
> Subject: [step-os] SC4 Secretariat and SourceForge
> 
> Various folks have been discussing bath an article raising concerns 
> about the openness of SourceForge as well as whether the SC4 Secretariat
> 
> needs to take any action to safeguard the module repository.
> 
> The two principal SourceForge services we have been using are CVS 
> repository hosting and email exploder hosting. Since the stepmod-devel 
> exploder will soon be migrated to the Secretariat, the only remaining 
> concern is the CVS repository.
> 
> CVS is an open source tool, and there are lots of other CVS hosting 
> venues besides SourceForge. It would be easy to switch to one of them at
> 
> some point in the future if we had to. However, in order to do so we 
> would have to copy our entire repository as it exists on the SourceForge
> 
> CVS server to the new host. A repository snapshot on a developer's hard 
> drive lacks the version information and change history recorded in the 
> repository on the CVS server.
> 
> SourceForge creates nightly "tarballs" (.tar.bz archives) for each 
> project's CVS repository. Although we don't do this, it would be smart 
> to download the stepmod tarball on a regular basis and back it up so 
> that, in  the event we have to make a sudden switch from SourceForge to 
> another host, little work will be lost.
> 
> If the SC4 Secretariat were to assume the responsibility for mainting 
> this backup, we would be protected from a sudden SourceForge disruption.
> 
> And maintaining the backup would be an easy task for the Secretariat to 
> take on.
> 
> For more information on backing up SourceForge projects, read 
> http://sourceforge.net/project/admin/backup.php?group_id=27487.
> 
> Josh
> 
> -- 
> Joshua Lubell
> National Institute of Standards and Technology
> Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
> 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8263
> Gaithersburg MD 20899-8263, USA
> Phone: 1-301-975-3563, Fax: 1-301-975-4694
> Email: lubell@nist.gov
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov
> http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> step-os mailing list
> step-os@step.nasa.gov
> http://step.nasa.gov/mailman/listinfo/step-os
> 
> 
> 
> 


Josh Lubell
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8263
Gaithersburg MD 20899-8263, USA
Phone: 1-301-975-3563, Email: lubell@nist.gov