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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
+ + + + + 
CONSUMER ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING
+ + + + + 
THURSDAY,
 NOVEMBER 20, 2003
+ + + + + 
The meeting convened at 9:00 a.m. in Room
TW-C305 of the Federal Communications Commission, 445
12th Street, S.W., Washington, D.C., SHIRLEY L.
ROOKER, Chair, presiding.
CAC MEMBERS PRESENT:
SHIRLEY L. ROOKER, Chair
THOMAS ALLIBONE
MATTHEW D. BENNETT
DEBRA BERLYN
DAVID BRUGGER
DIANE BURSTEIN
ANNETTE CLECKNER
JIM CONRAN 
CINDY COX
MICHAEL F. DelCASINO
MIKE DUKE
LARRY GOLDBERG
JOSEPH GORDON
SUSAN GRANT
DAVID HOROWITZ
CHERYL JOHNSON
BRENDA KELLY-FREY
KAREN KIRSCH
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CAC MEMBERS PRESENT (Continued):
JEFFREY KRAMER
REBECCA LADEW
RONALD MALLARD
SUSAN PALMER-MAZRUI
 DAVID POEHLMAN
MARK PRANGER
JOY M. RAGSDALE
EUGENE SEAGRIFF
DONALD SNOOP
BYRON ST. CLAIR
CLAUDE STOUT
RICHARD T. ELLIS
ANDREA WILLIAMS
DIXIE ZIEGLER (present telephonically)
ALSO PRESENT:
JONATHAN S. ADELSTEIN, Commissioner, FCC
PATTY BANNIER, Hamilton Relay Services
CLAY BOWEN, Virginia Relay
AMY BROWN, Legal Adviser
PAM GREGORY, Chief, Disability Rights Office,
Consumer Information Bureau
CHRISTOPHER LIBERTELLI
Senior Legal Adviser, FCC
KRIS MONTEITH, Associate Bureau Chief for
Intergovernmental Affairs, Consumer and
Governmental Affairs Bureau, FCC
K. DANE SNOWDEN, Chief, Consumer and
Governmental Affairs Bureau, FCC
PAM STEWART, Maryland Relay
KAREN PELTZ-STRAUSS, Powrie V. Doctor Chair
for Deaf Studies, Gallaudet University
THOMAS WYATT, Deputy Bureau Chief, Consumer
and Governmental Affairs Bureau, FCC
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I-N-D-E-X
AGENDA ITEM                                     PAGE
Welcome and Call to Order                          4
Shirley L. Rooker, Chair,
Consumer Advisory Committee (CAC)
Meeting Logistics                                 6
Scott Marshall, CAC Designated Federal Officer,
Consumer & Governmental Affairs Bureau (CGB)
The Life of a Complaint                           15
Thomas Wyatt, Deputy Bureau Chief, Consumer &
Governmental Affairs Bureau (CGB)
Presentation: Voluntary Consumer Information      52
Code
Andrea Williams, Assistant General Counsel,
Cellular Telecommunications and Internet
Association
Introduction of the Chairman and Commissioners    82
K. Dane Snowden, Chief, CGB
Update on the Consumer & Governmental Affairs     83
Bureau
K. Dane Snowden, Chief, CGB
Working Group Recommendations and Progress       105
Reports
TRS Working Group                          105
Brenda Kelly-Frey, Chair
Broadband Working Group                    136
Larry Goldberg, Chair
Consumer Complaints, Outreach, Education   148
and Participation Working Group
Joy Ragsdale, Chair
Ancillary Services Working Group           163
Eugene Seagriff, Chair
Comments from the Public; Wrap-Up; Future        177
Meetings
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S1
(9:01 a.m.)2
WELCOME AND CALL TO ORDER3
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  If we could join4
around the table?  We have a very packed day, as5
usual.  I would also like to express some thanks to6
people.  The National Association of Broadcasters we7
would like to thank for lunch and breakfast. 8
Breakfast is certainly good.  So if lunch is equal to9
that, we're in good shape here.10
Also I would like to thank Betty Thompson11
and the other FCC staffers who made this meeting12
possible.  Of course, that would not happen at all13
without Scott Marshall, bless his heart.  I know he14
just gets so mad at me every time I say that. 15
Nevertheless, it's true because he does all the work. 16
He really does.  Amy Brown is also doing a great17
thing.  Thanks from us for keeping us legal, making18
sure we're not doing something that's wrong.19
In addition to that, Verizon and MCI have20
very generously donated teleconferencing services for21
the working groups.  We would like to thank them.  We22
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appreciate that very much because you really have made1
the facilitating of the working groups so much easier2
for us.3
We have a new representative, some changes4
in our membership from the National Urban League,5
Michele Moore, but, unfortunately, Michelle could not6
be with us today.  Joining us instead is her7
alternate, Lisa Malone.  Lisa, where are you?  Is she8
here yet?  Well, we hope she is going to be.  I think9
she is going to be joining us a little later.  And10
Stephen Gregory is no longer a member of the11
committee.12
I also would like to say that it has been13
very gratifying to see the work that has been going on14
in the working groups.  You were called to the working15
groups for a reason, obviously, because you have been16
doing a lot of work.  There has been a lot of17
activity, a lot of discussion, teleconferencing,18
e-mails, and then recommendations that have come out19
of it that will be presented today.20
There are a few of you who have not joined21
a working group.  I strongly encourage you to do so22
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because without your participation in a working group,1
you really are missing out on a lot of what is going2
on in the committee.  Let Scott know so that you can3
be plugged in to the meetings that take place and so4
that you will be getting all of the information in the5
e-mails.  Your participation is so important.  I just6
can't stress that enough.7
Now I am going to turn this over to Scott,8
who has some information that you need t pay careful9
attention to because it has to do with a drill that is10
going on here today.11
MR. MARSHALL:  Thank you, Shirley.12
MEETING LOGISTICS13
MR. MARSHALL:  Good morning, everybody,14
and welcome.  Several quick announcements.  As you15
know from our agenda, we will be breaking out into the16
working group sessions at the end of this hour.17
We do have cart services and sign language18
interpreters for all of those breakout sessions.  By19
the way, to the working group chairs, we can provide20
you with an uncorrected transcript of your21
discussions.  However, we have assisted listening22
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devices only here in the commission meeting room,1
where the TRS group will be meeting, and in one other2
working group room.  It's an interference issue.  And3
that's due to the proximity of the rooms here today4
that we are using.  We can only run two assisted5
listening device systems at one time.6
So it would be very helpful to us if you7
could identify yourself to us at this point if you8
plan to attend the broadband working group, the9
consumer complaints and outreach working group, or the10
ancillary services working group and if you need an11
assisted listening device.  If you could raise your12
hand and let us know what group so that we can set up13
that equipment between now and 10:00 o'clock? 14
Anybody?  Shirley?15
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  We have Joe, Rebecca.16
Who else?17
MR. MARSHALL:  Keep in mind that if you're18
going to be in the TRS group, you are not going to19
have a problem.  It's going to be right here.  And we20
are equipped in this room.21
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  I've got you and Joe.22
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MEMBER GORDON:  I think I would go to the1
consumer complaint meeting if you can have assisted in2
that.3
MR. MARSHALL:  Okay.4
MEMBER GORDON:  The word "complaint" is5
what I am doing now.6
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Which group?7
MEMBER GORDON:  Consumer complaint.8
MR. MARSHALL:  Fine.9
MEMBER GORDON:  Is that okay, Scott?10
MR. MARSHALL:  Fine.11
MEMBER GORDON:  Thank you.12
MR. MARSHALL:  And, Rebecca, you are going13
to stay here or you are going someplace?14
MS. LADEW (via interpreter):  I will be15
here.16
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  That solves17
that problem.18
MR. MARSHALL:  I hope you got that19
information.  It's the Consumer and outreach group20
that needs the portable assisted listening device21
equipment.22
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 Everyone has been very conscious of1
security after 9/11.  That's certainly true here at2
this agency.  This morning there will be a3
shelter-in-place drill taking place during our4
meeting.5
The shelter-in-place procedures are6
designed to protect you, our guests, and our staff in7
the unlikely event of a chemical or biological threat.8
Basically, the building shuts down and people are9
directed to designated shelter areas throughout the10
building.11
This morning, though, in order not to12
interrupt this meeting, what we would like you to do,13
we plan to adjourn the first session, Thomas Wyatt, at14
about 9:45.  We would like you to then quickly, as15
quickly as possible, move to the breakout rooms.  We16
will have staff available to show you the way. 17
They're just across the hall, actually, and down the18
corridor.  Of course, if you're in the TRS group, you19
stay right here.  There are also signs on the rooms as20
well.21
We would like you to get in those rooms as22
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quickly as possible and stay there for the duration of1
the drill.  The drill will occur at about 10:05.  And2
you'll hear a couple of announcements over our public3
address system.4
Please do not be alarmed by this.  It's5
only a drill.  Go about your business in the usual6
way.  Keep working in your working groups.  And there7
should be no problem.8
Then we would like to see you back here at9
noon in the commission meeting room for lunch and our10
luncheon presentation with Andrea Williams from CTIA. 11
Does anybody have any questions about the12
shelter-in-place drill?  Somebody said "Scott." 13
David, go ahead.14
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  I just want to know the15
break, then, is it 9:45?16
MR. MARSHALL:  We will be adjourning at17
9:45 to go to the breakout sessions, correct.18
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  At least one of us will19
need to jump outside for a few minutes.  And I didn't20
know if that would interfere with the drill thing or21
not.22
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MR. MARSHALL:  I would like you to go if1
you at all possibly could go directly to your room2
because the corridors are going to be very mobbed3
during this drill process, we believe, because people4
can't use the elevators and it's going to be a5
challenge.6
MEMBER BERLYN:  Scott, it's Debbie Berlyn.7
 MR. MARSHALL:  Hi, Debbie.8
MEMBER BERLYN:  Hi.  Question.  I don't9
know if this is the appropriate time, but if you10
belong to two groups --11
MR. MARSHALL:  You would have to make a12
hard choice, Debbie.13
MEMBER BERLYN:  Is there any way that you14
can?  Is there a point at which we can go from one15
group to the other during that period of time?16
MR. MARSHALL:  You certainly could after17
the half-hour drill time if you wanted to float18
between two groups.  That's certainly your option.  We19
would like you to stay in one spot during the20
shelter-in-place drill.21
MEMBER BERLYN:  Okay.22
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MR. MARSHALL:  Anything else?1
(No response.)2
MR. MARSHALL:  And, of course, restrooms3
are right out this door to my right and down the hall4
to the left.  They haven't moved since last time, I'm5
happy to say.  I guess that's it.  Back to you,6
Shirley.  Thanks.7
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Brenda, did you have8
a comment?9
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  This is Brenda10
Kelly-Frey.11
MR. MARSHALL:  Hi, Brenda.12
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Hi, Scott.  Just13
wondering, since the TRS working group has also been14
asked to consider homeland security as part of our15
job, would it be possible for someone from the working16
group to kind of observe what's going on with the17
sheltering in place so that we can possibly include18
some of the things that we have learned from the19
sheltering in place here at the FCC in our suggestions20
to the homeland security for disabled individuals?21
MR. MARSHALL:  I guess I'm not clear about22
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your question, Brenda.  We do have procedures in place1
for our employees and guests with disabilities if this2
were an actual emergency.  We have special procedures3
today because of this meeting going on in terms of4
what we're doing in order not to disrupt the meeting.5
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  I'm just wondering. 6
I think it would be very beneficial to see to maybe7
meet with the people who do this, who have done this8
drill, to just kind of find out what accommodations9
were made or will be necessary for us to include in10
our homeland security recommendations in the future.11
MR. MARSHALL:  Sure.  I think we can work12
that out.13
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Okay.14
MR. MARSHALL:  Yes.  After the fact, I15
think we can work that out without a problem.16
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Okay.  Great.  Thanks.17
MR. MARSHALL:  Just remind me.  Okay?18
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Thanks.19
MR. MARSHALL:  All right.  Anything else?20
(No response.)21
MR. MARSHALL:  All right.  Really back to22
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you this time, Shirley.1
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  All right.  Another2
reminder.  We are being televised.  So behave3
yourselves. Also I would like to ask you to please4
sign in the registration sheet -- I believe it's out5
in the hallway -- so that we have a record of your6
being here.7
With that, it gives me great pleasure to8
introduce our first speaker because I think that we9
have been asked that he come and speak to us again. 10
So, Thomas, you must have done something right the11
first time.12
We're delighted to have Thomas Wyatt, who13
is the deputy bureau chief, who oversees the consumer14
complaint and inquiry process.  He has graciously15
agreed to come back today, as requested by the16
consumer complaints working group, which is chaired by17
Joy Ragsdale.18
Thomas, welcome.19
(Applause.)20
MR. WYATT:  Thank you, Shirley.21
THE LIFE OF A COMPLAINT22
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MR. WYATT:  It's good to be here.  Scott1
informed me that I have a little less time than I had2
planned for.  So I intend to keep my remarks fairly3
brief.  I'm sure Scott will see to that.4
Also I believe you should have a copy of5
my slide presentation in your packet.  So that may6
help speed us along as well.7
I would like to talk about our consumer8
center operations and then more specifically about the9
informal complaint process.  I believe some of you10
have indicated that you want to understand the process11
from beginning to end a little better.  So I intend to12
focus on the consumer complaint process.13
My slides aren't up yet.  There they are. 14
The second slide.  Okay.  Well, our consumer centers. 15
You have heard us say this before.  Our consumer16
centers are typically the consumer's first point of17
contact with the FCC.18
They operate in two locations:  here in19
D.C. and in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania.  They really20
operate virtually as one because they share schedules.21
They don't duplicate any work.  Really, they do the22
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same functions in both centers.  So there's really no1
duplication.  It's virtually one center, but we refer2
to them as two.3
We have about 72 consumer advocacy and4
mediation specialists, or CAMS, as we call them, that5
handle the telephones, that handle the complaints, and6
respond to consumer inquiries.7
We also have a distribution center that8
supports the complaints process by sorting and9
scanning the incoming mail.  That's a pretty major10
challenge given the amount of mail that we get from11
time to time.12
I want to talk a little about training as13
well.  I believe that was a question someone had about14
training for the CAMS.  Joe has probably had one of15
the toughest jobs at the commission in my assessment. 16
He's required to have a pretty broad knowledge of17
various commission rules and policies.  As you might18
imagine, that's a pretty major undertaking, but we try19
to provide substantive training on a regular basis for20
the CAMS.21
For example, when the recent do not call22
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requirements came out, we had some pretty in-depth1
training for the CAMS on those requirements and how2
they needed to handle consumer inquiries and3
complaints.4
We are also doing it with what is local5
known affordability.  So that is something we put a6
lot of emphasis on.  When there is a major initiative7
by the commission, we try to make sure that the CAMS8
receive substantive training on those requirements.9
 We also have a practice of sending out10
daily e-mails on hot topics and special items of11
interest.  We also conduct in-depth monthly group12
training on current policy issues.13
Another thing we do is we put a lot of14
emphasis on team building.  So we have team-building15
training as well to make sure that we're working as a16
group.  It's very important.  We have a lot of diverse17
issues to deal with.  And we need to make sure that18
we're all working together so that we get it right.19
We also have research training for the20
camps periodically as well.  It's important that they21
understand how to get at information that consumers22
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need.  Again, with the volume of the work that comes1
out of the commission, it's important that they have2
the ability to track that information down and provide3
it to consumers.4
Finally, we put a lot of emphasis on5
customer service because consumers expect and demand6
excellent service.  I don't need to tell you all that7
because you deal with consumers and you know that they8
expect and demand excellent service.  That's pretty9
challenging sometimes because we will get calls and10
consumers will want something that we practically are11
not able to deliver, but we try to inform them of that12
in a very nice way.  Sometimes that doesn't even help.13
So if we can go to the next slide, I14
wanted to talk about the consumer center workload.  We15
divide the workload into two basic groups.  Basically16
it's the real-time work.  That's the phone call.17
When the phone rings, we have to answer18
it.  And we try to answer it as quickly as possible. 19
I don't have any available stats today, but generally20
we answer the phone within 30 seconds in most cases. 21
I don't have the specific stats on that, but we do a22
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good job of answering the phone very quickly.  On1
average, our CAMS take close to about 30,000 telephone2
calls a month.  That's speaking directly to the3
consumer.4
The next category, follow-on work we call5
it, and that's the work that follows on after the6
real-time work is done.  Usually after a phone call,7
there's some information that the consumer has8
requested or the consumer has filed a complaint.  So9
that has to be processed into our system and has to be10
worked.11
Sometimes the CAMS will be required to12
gather information and send out information.  So13
that's the work that falls on after the initial14
contact with the consumer.15
E-mail is a big part of that.  We average16
about close to over 15,000 e-mail a month as well. 17
These are e-mail that the CAMS are required to respond18
to, usually within two days.  Sometimes it takes a19
little longer depending on the complexity, but we try20
to respond to e-mail within two days of receipt.21
We also get quite a bit of paper through22
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the mail, paper complaints and inquiries.  We receive1
probably close to 9,000 of those each month.2
So let's go to the next slide.  I want to3
keep going here.  I wanted to talk about the informal4
consumer complaints.  I think I have sort of preached5
this over and over again, but we really put a lot of6
emphasis on this face.7
An informal complaint can be filed by any8
reasonable means.  What I have listed here on this9
slide is the most used means:  toll-free call, voice10
TTY.  When someone calls in a complaint, that11
compliant is manually entered into our database by the12
CAMS while she is on the phone.  Once that complaint13
is in the system, then it can be processed by the14
CAMS.15
E-mail is normally efficient because we16
can scan our menu into the database.  Personal mail17
probably presents the biggest challenge because we18
have to scan that into our database.  Our distribution19
center does that, but sometimes the mail is not in20
real good shape.  So it requires some extra work to21
get it into the system, and the same thing with fax. 22
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Sometimes fax communications aren't real legible and1
we have to really work with those to get those in.2
The internet is probably the easiest3
method of getting a complaint to us from our4
perspective because we can get that complaint directly5
into our database from the internet.  So it's really6
an efficient way of getting the complaint to us.7
The next slide I am going to go to is to8
talk about the informal complaint process.  I have a9
flow chart here on these next two slides that10
describes the process.11
As I said earlier, any reasonable means to12
file a complaint, let's say if someone files one via13
the toll-free call, that complaint is processed and14
logged into our tracking system, the same with e-mail,15
personal mail, fax, and internet complaints.16
Once they're logged into the system, the17
CAMS then evaluate the content and jurisdiction we18
have over the subject matter of the complaint.  If the19
content is not okay, then usually we try to obtain20
additional information from the consumer.21
If there's a jurisdiction problem, we22
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refer the consumer to another agency.  It could be a1
state or federal agency.  Sometimes we refer to the2
enforcement division for their expert review of it as3
well.4
Let's say that if the content and5
jurisdiction are okay, then, if you go to the next6
slide, the complaint is usually forwarded to the7
company or companies involved, usually within 20 days.8
Martha is in the audience.  I am looking9
to her to confirm because I don't want to say10
something that's really off base, but I believe we do11
a pretty good job of getting complaints to the12
carriers now, maybe within 20 days, Martha.  Once it's13
into our system, we can get it to the carrier within14
20 days.  And we're trying to improve that even.15
We started a project a little over a year16
ago electronically serving complaints on some17
carriers; actually, some of the carrier18
representatives here.19
I believe the process is still working20
pretty well.  We're always looking to refine it.  And21
we hope to be able to refine it more very soon.  But22
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that works very well because we can get it to the1
carrier sooner.  They can address it sooner.  And the2
consumer is happy sooner because the carriers do a3
real good job of making the consumer happy.  So we4
really want to see that process up.5
Let's say we have the complaint.  Whatever6
means it got to us, we process it into our system.  We7
determined that it can be served.  We served it.  And8
we get a response.9
We reply to the response.  Say the10
complaint is satisfied.  Well, we typically close it11
because we don't do much more with the complaint,12
although it could be subject to further review by the13
Enforcement Bureau for some possible violation, but we14
basically close it out once we hear from the carrier15
and the consumer that it has been satisfied.16
If it is not satisfied -- and I really17
want to emphasize these points because I think there18
is some misunderstanding about our informal complaint19
process.  It's really not designed to produce a20
decision on the merits.  We really try to facilitate21
some of the resolution for the individual consumer.22
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So if it's not satisfied, we may mediate1
on behalf of the consumer.  That might be a phone call2
to Mike, for example, asking if they could take a3
second look at it because we think there may be a4
problem.  Usually the companies are pretty good about5
doing that.  So we really try to facilitate some6
resolution for the consumer.7
Sometimes we will even require that8
companies provide us additional information.  So, for9
example, if someone gives us a response that says,10
"Well, we look at the complaint, and it's not valid,"11
we don't usually view that as a legitimate response." 12
We expect some explanation of the situation and how13
the company handled it.  So we may go back and ask for14
more information if we get that kind of response from15
the company.16
We also advise the complainant of options17
because, again, we don't issue decisions on the18
merits.  If a consumer expects us to issue a written19
decision that says, "Based on these facts, there was20
or was not a violation of this particular rule or21
order of the commission, they're not going to get that22
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via the informal complaint process."  But we'll1
explain to them what their options are.2
Under the commission's regulatory scheme3
for common carriers, that option is to file a formal4
complaint.  So we provide detailed information about5
how to pursue a formal complaint.6
If I can sort of go to the last slide, I7
guess, we want to talk a little bit about the8
difference between inquiry and the complaint because9
I get that question a lot.10
As you can see from the slide, inquiry is11
basically a communication to one of our consumer12
centers seeking information about an issue or problem.13
If the consumer doesn't name a company and14
ask for relief from that company, we generally don't15
view that as a complaint.  Complaints are any16
correspondence, communication to the consumer centers17
by or on behalf of a consumer which alleges a18
violation and seeks relief.19
So if a consumer calls, writes, or20
e-mails, whatever, and says, "In my dealings with X21
company, I experienced this problem.  And I think it22
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was wrong, and this is the relief I want," then that1
is definitely a consumer complaint.  We forward that2
to the company, which has the 30 days to respond.3
I would point out that -- I alluded to4
this earlier -- the companies that we serve complaints5
on generally do a good job of addressing those6
complaints.  We did an informal study a little while7
ago that showed about 80 percent of the complaints8
that we serve are resolved to the satisfaction of the9
consumer.  I think that's a pretty good ratio.10
We recognize there are at least 20 percent11
of consumers who may not be satisfied, but, again, the12
process is designed to facilitate informal resolution13
on behalf of the consumer.  I think it does a pretty14
good job of accomplishing that.15
So we are very pleased and proud of the16
process.  We are looking to refine it all the time. 17
We are always looking for suggestions on how to make18
it better.  We have regular discussions with the19
companies that we serve complaints on to make sure20
that we're not burning their systems and that we're21
working together to really make it a full and22
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effective process.1
So that essentially describes the2
complaint process.  And I guess I will open it up to3
questions if you have any.  Yes?4
MEMBER HOROWITZ:  Tom?5
MR. WYATT:  Yes?6
MEMBER HOROWITZ:  I'm just wondering.  Do7
you log these complaints as to the subject matter?8
MR. WYATT:  Yes, we do.9
MEMBER HOROWITZ:  Are those put on the Web10
site?11
MR. WYATT:  Well, we issue what we call a12
quarterly statistical report on top consumer13
complaints and inquiries.  That report only lists the14
top consumer complaints received for the previous15
quarter.16
We don't routinely put all of the17
complaint categories on the internet, but that18
quarterly report is available on the internet.  As a19
matter of fact, I am hoping that we will have one20
coming out today.21
MEMBER HOROWITZ:  This is just my feeling.22
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I feel that is really a good guide for people who are1
looking at the Web site to know percentages of2
complaints that come about certain issues -- it could3
be from home phones to cell phones to whatever -- and4
break those out.  And it would also be something that5
would really be interesting to the media because the6
media is always looking for the top ten this and the7
top ten that, but just to get an idea of what people8
are really complaining about.9
MR. WYATT:  That is something we are10
considering.  As I said earlier, right now we are11
focusing on the top categories.  We are looking at12
possibly broadening the scope of the report to include13
some additional categories, but that is something that14
we would appreciate some more comments on.  It's15
something maybe we will be able to do in the future.16
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  We have a lot17
of questions.  I saw Joe Gordon's hand first.  Let me18
just remind us, say who you are.  But before you start19
talking, hold your hand up so the people in the booth20
can find you.21
MEMBER GORDON:  All right.  I'm Joe Gordon22
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from the League for Hard of Hearing.  We represent a1
large population of consumers that use telephone2
really and watch closed captioning.  I have a question3
or I need some advice.4
Many times consumers would like to write5
a letter to the cable company, the TV company,6
telephone company, and not write a letter complaining7
to the FCC.  They don't get a response.  When they8
write a letter to the FCC, they do get a response. 9
How can we solve that problem that we get an answer10
from the company?  Should we write to the company and11
copy the FCC?12
The big thing is specifically with, say,13
closed captioning and television.  If a consumer14
writes to the cable company saying, "Why was there no15
captioning?" they are not going to reply.  If they16
write a letter to the FCC saying, "There was no17
captioning," they will get some acknowledgement.  How18
can we solve that problem?19
MR. WYATT:  And that's been a longstanding20
problem.  I think I alluded to this earlier.  Most21
companies are usually good about getting back to22
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consumers.1
We recognize that consumers don't always2
get the response they want or expect.  And we need to3
encourage consumers to copy the company when they send4
a letter to us because I think that does get their5
attention.  They're maybe more likely to respond6
directly to the consumer.  So the consumer has7
indicated their intent that they have sent this to the8
FCC.9
Our goal is to make sure that the10
consumers do get that response, which is why the11
informal complaint process is so important because if12
the consumer wants a response from the company and13
they send us a complaint, we will facilitate that14
process and make sure there is a response.15
Oftentimes the company is in a much better16
position to resolve something than we are.  Just17
facilitating that dialogue really speeds the process18
up.19
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  I'm going to20
try to get you in the order that I saw your hands. 21
David, I think you're next.  I see you, David.  Okay.22
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MEMBER POEHLMAN:  This is David Poehlman1
with the American Council of the Blind.  Hello,2
everyone.3
Thomas, thank you very much for presenting4
this very clear road map and a very clear distinction5
between an inquiry and an informal complaint.  This is6
something that a lot of people get confused about, as7
you said.8
I have a couple of real kind of logistical9
kinds of questions.  You say that e-mail can be10
scanned in.  Does that mean it's printed and then11
scanned or does that mean that there is some other12
process that you're referring to as scanning?13
MR. WYATT:  I believe that we print it and14
then scan it.  Usually the copies are very legible. 15
They're much easier to scan in.  I believe that's the16
process.17
We're looking at ways now to actually not18
have to scan it in but actually be able to input it19
into our system without that process, but that's20
something that we have in the works and hope to have21
it available in the not-too-distant future.22
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MEMBER POEHLMAN:  That's going to actually1
be part of my follow-up, and that is it's kind of2
hard, I guess, sometimes to verify the authenticity or3
genuinity of an e-mail.  So I imagine you get a lot of4
throw-aways.  I'm sure you have something in place5
that kind of helps screen that, but I'm sure it makes6
your job really tough.7
You alluded to the possibility of having8
a way to encode the e-mail directly.  Would one9
possible solution be to send an e-mail form back to10
the originator and have them like fill it in in an11
e-mail and return it?  Anyway, that's just an off12
side.13
I also was interested in the statistics of14
the types of the media of the communications with the15
FCC.  I noticed that e-mail is -- what is it? --16
practically double what paper is.  I find that very17
interesting.18
MR. WYATT:  Yes.  E-mail has become very19
prevalent.  I mean, we're getting a lot of e-mail. 20
And the number is always going up.  E-mail is also a21
way for a lot of people to really get a point across22
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to the commission.1
I'll give you an example.  We have been2
receiving a lot of e-mail recently about the Golden3
Globe award program.  During that program, -- you all4
might be familiar with it -- someone used the "f" word5
in describing his experience at the Golden Globe6
awards.7
A lot of people were really outraged that8
that was broadcast.  So we've gotten a lot of comments9
and complaints from consumers about the use of the "f"10
word on the broadcast.11
Most of them have come in via e-mail.  We12
get a lot of phone calls, but a lot of them have come13
in via e-mail.  It was thousands and thousands of them14
in a very short period of time.  So e-mail is a very15
prevalent tool that consumers have at their disposal.16
We recognize that.  Our job is to be17
poised and prepared to take that e-mail and work with18
it effectively.19
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Thank you, Thomas.20
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  Thank you.21
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  This side over here22
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seems to have a lot of questions.  I saw your hand1
first.  Go right ahead.  Start at the end and work2
your way up.  Tell us your name.  Okay.3
MEMBER ALLIBONE:  I'm Tom Allibone.  I've4
got a question for you.  In my real life, I am5
actually a consultant representing consumers.  I have6
filed on behalf of a number of consumers complaints7
with the FCC over the past years.8
It seems that the treatment or the process9
-- okay?  You did a very high level of review today of10
the process and without a lot of details.  I can tell11
you that as a consultant, for example, something is12
falling through the cracks in the informal complaint13
process.14
Definitely there is not a feedback loop. 15
And, in fact, even the consumers I represented also16
did not get adequate feedback.  So I want to bring17
that to your attention, at least, if it has not been18
brought up before in the past.19
The second thing is more of a comment. 20
Okay?  I have utilized your CAMS on a number of21
different occasions to inquire.  Quite frankly, part22
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of what I do in my investigations, I am kind of1
testing the waters all the time to see exactly what2
you know and what you don't know.3
I have to tell you that it's been kind of4
hit and miss.  I understand it's a tall task, you5
know, in this new world order to be kind of an expert6
in many, many areas, but what concerns me is that in7
this new world of deregulation, of long distance and8
local all coming back together again, phone bills are9
more complex and confusing than ever, when consumers10
bring complaints to you -- and I'll give you just a11
real simple example.12
A complaint comes forward where I'm being13
billed, I discover, for a dial tone line that I14
haven't had for 20 years.  On the surface, it would15
appear that that complaint may be better served going16
back to the local/state public utility commission. 17
But, in fact, the way that the phone lines are18
structured these days, there are multiple charges19
associated with that dial tone line, as you know.  And20
many of those charges are regulated by the Federal21
Communications Commission.22
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I am just curious.  Out of the statistics1
that you gather and you capture, when you are making2
a determination of what goes back to the state and3
where you have jurisdiction there are these gray4
areas.  There are very important gray areas.5
I asked a question of one of your folks6
several months ago.  I said, "Does anybody in the FCC7
actually track the number of FCC subscriber line8
charges that are being billed to nonexistent lines?" 9
It's kind of a squirrely question to ask.10
The reason I was asking that question is11
because that same complaint goes back to the state12
public utilities.  You find out that a consumer has13
been paying for a nonexistent line for 20 years and14
this money has been collected.  Okay?  I am just15
curious, things like that.16
It's just one example.  How are you making17
the tough call on some of these cases that could have18
state implications and FCC implications?  And how are19
you really sharing that data?20
MR. WYATT:  You pointed up a challenge21
that we have.  I mean, these are the tough issues. 22
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Some of the things you pointed out are issues that1
most attorneys here wouldn't be able to answer in2
response to the initial phone call.  They require some3
amount of analysis.4
I think our process is not structured5
towards having expertise on the phone.  We have people6
that are knowledgeable about tracking down information7
to give the information back to the consumers, but we8
don't have so-called experts on the phone who are able9
to answer really tough questions sometimes.10
A lot of them are really tough.  Frankly,11
we sometimes get the jurisdictional calls wrong.  But12
we work with our state counterparts to try to make13
sure that we get it right.  We're always looking to14
improve that process.  And that's why comments like15
yours are always appreciated, because it tells us that16
we need to work harder and figure out how to do things17
better.18
So I welcome those comments.  I know I am19
not really answering your question, but it's a tough20
question.  I don't have a ready answer for it.  We21
will look at the process, the types of complaints that22
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you describe.  We do get them, and we try to make sure1
that we have jurisdiction before we put any obligation2
on the companies to respond to us.3
I mean, it's not our role to require the4
companies to respond to matters that are more properly5
within the jurisdictions of the states.  So we try to6
do a good job of getting things to the state. 7
Sometimes they'll send them back.  And then the8
consumer may be left in the lurch a little bit.9
We try to figure out an answer eventually10
and get it back to the consumer.  It's not a perfect11
process but one that I think if we keep working to12
make it better and keep our focus on serving the13
consumer, we will get it right.14
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  Let's work our15
way up the table.  I think there were some hands.  Who16
was the next person?  Susan?17
MEMBER GRANT:  Good morning.  Susan Grant18
from the National Consumers League.19
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Put your hand up,20
Susan, so she can see you.21
MEMBER GRANT:  I have a two-part question22
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about inquiries.  If a consumer contacts the FCC about1
an industry-wide problem or perceived gap in the FCC2
rules and doesn't name a specific company, is that3
considered an inquiry, rather than a complaint?4
Secondly, do you track inquiries to see5
what people are asking about, which might be useful in6
terms of developing consumer education programs as7
well as looking at whether or not, in fact, there are8
systemic problems in telecommunications that might9
need to be addressed in a policy way.10
MR. WYATT:  In response to your last11
question, absolutely.  We track inquiries very12
closely.  It's something that we put a lot of emphasis13
on because the other bureaus rely on us to provide14
them that information about what consumers are15
inquiring about because the inquiries often point up16
a problem or an issue that needs to be addressed in17
some regulatory fashion or in some other fashion.18
So it also points up the need for us to do19
more outreach because if consumers are calling us with20
a lot of questions about a matter, it tells us that21
we're not getting good information out.  So we use22
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that information to develop outreach materials and to1
improve our fact sheets so that we can better educate2
consumers.3
Regarding your first question, generally4
no.  We don't generally treat that as a complaint.  If5
they're pointed up in industry-wide, what they view as6
an industry-wide problem, we don't generally track7
that as a complaint.8
We track that as an inquiry, although if9
we get enough of those, those are given a lot of10
attention as well because we have enough of those.  It11
tells us that there is something that we may need to12
address.13
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  Thank you. 14
Claude, I think you were next.  No?  Okay.  Is there15
any other one?  All right.  Joe, you have had one16
question already.  I've got to give Larry and then Joy17
a chance.  Sorry about that.  He's pouting.18
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  Hi.  This is Larry19
Goldberg from WGBH in Boston Media Access Group.  I20
had a question about both the reporting and21
potentially the policy decisions made on the volume of22
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these complaints.1
I am an avid reader of the daily digest2
and see a tremendous number of particularly slamming3
complaints that are received and resolved.  These are4
basically complaints made and decisions made based on5
the volume of the complaints, the top ten list also.6
I know there are a lot less complaints7
about access issues.  It's very hard for you to make8
any decisions based on the quality of a complaint,9
instead of quantity, but because there are so few10
access complaints, it's a smaller population,11
communications problems are endemic, I am concerned12
that all of those access issues are getting sort of13
buried.14
Certainly in the quarterly report, you15
won't see them in the top ten often.  Sometimes you16
will.  But there's a difference between a two-dollar17
overcharge in your phone bill and the fact that there18
were no captions during an emergency, for instance. 19
I know that's a quality issue.20
I think a lot of the disability access21
complaints are really played down significantly.22
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MR. WYATT:  If I can come in next, I would1
like to differ with you.  By all means, are they2
varied.  I think we probably scrutinize access3
complaints as much or more than any other complaints.4
You mentioned that we don't get as many. 5
That's very true.  We don't get a lot of access6
complaints, but we do scrutinize them.  We share7
information with the Enforcement Bureau.  We have a8
telephone accessibility specialist whose primary job9
is to really zero in on those complaints and identify10
issues that might require some explanation.11
I personally have been involved in12
mediating some access complaints over the past year. 13
That tells you as well that we take them very14
seriously.  And if there are issues raised that15
require more attention within the bureau, then they16
certainly receive it.17
So the fact that they don't appear on the18
quarterly report as one of the top categories by no19
means reflects the seriousness with which they take20
them.21
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Joy, I think you were22
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next.1
MEMBER RAGSDALE:  Good morning.  Joy2
Ragsdale with the Office of People's Counsel,3
representing NASUCA, state utility consumer advocates.4
I have several questions, the first one in5
regards to the jurisdiction.  How do you guide the6
consumer in understanding where they should go to file7
their complaint?8
NASUCA is also interested in establishing9
a point-to-point relationship with FCC, not10
representatives at the call center but key staff11
members where we can help guide our consumers without12
having to go through the normal process.13
My local office, the Office of People's14
Counsel for D.C., we have a good relationship with15
Martha Contee.  So we are able to call her directly. 16
And some of the other member offices would also like17
to establish that type of relationship across the18
country.  So that's I guess a two-part question.19
MR. WYATT:  Well, we really try to put a20
lot of information in our fact sheets that really draw21
the line in terms of what should come to us and what22
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should go to the states.  We are always looking to1
improve those fact sheets.2
We also post information on the internet. 3
And we also supply our CAMS with scripts that they can4
use in responding to questions along jurisdictional5
lines.6
It's a challenge because there are so many7
overlapping areas.  It's tough to sort them out8
sometimes, but what we try to do is make sure that our9
fact sheets are as clear as possible.  We have10
information on the internet.  Consumers can access11
that and make a decision about where to go.12
We also try to make sure that we can13
facilitate the exchange of information between us and14
our state counterparts.  So, for example, if we15
receive a complaint that we think belongs to a state,16
then we know who at that state to contact and send17
that complaint to.  So we try to speed the process18
along.  Sometimes we'll tell the consumer, "You should19
go there" or sometimes we'll take the complaint and20
actually send it there on a consumer's behalf.  That21
works as well.22
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So it's a challenge.  And I think the key1
is to try to get good information out to consumers,2
make sure that the CAMS are able to answer questions3
about jurisdiction and direct the complaints4
accordingly.5
MEMBER RAGSDALE:  So you said you would6
send it to the commissions as your counterpart or7
would you also be interested in sending it to the8
NASUCA offices or other consumer advocate offices?9
MR. WYATT:  We try to ascertain what other10
agency organization has some control or involvement11
with the complaints.  Once we identify who the best12
party is to handle the complaint, our goal is to get13
it to that party, so not necessarily a state14
commission.  It could be another state agency.  For15
example, local franchising authorities receive a lot16
of referrals from us on cable-related complaints.17
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Joe, if you have a18
short follow-up?  Stick your hand up.19
MEMBER GORDON:  Joe Gordon, League for20
Hard of Hearing.  I would imagine you get a lot of21
complaints that are not under your jurisdiction, but22
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do you ever write a letter of concern?1
I'm specifically speaking about TV Guide,2
which we all know no longer publishes "CC," "Closed3
Captioning," in their TV Guide, which is really4
something nobody understands.  If you get complaints5
on that and TV Guide doesn't fall under your6
jurisdiction, would you ever write a letter of concern7
about something like that?8
MR. WYATT:  Let me answer that this way. 9
That would be a call that would be made by probably10
someone well above me because clearly we have no11
jurisdiction over TV Guide.  I mean, who am I to call12
them and even give them a recommendation?  That's13
something that I would imagine that if the commission14
is inclined to do it, it would be a decision made by15
someone much higher than me.16
 this whole thing we typically don't do. 17
We don't have jurisdiction.  I mean, we don't inure,18
if I can use that word, to areas where we clearly19
don't have a jurisdiction because there are a lot of20
people that don't appreciate that.21
And we have so many areas where we do have22
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jurisdiction that it's somewhat of a resource issue1
for us as well.2
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Thomas, thank you3
ever so much for being with us.  Obviously everyone4
has enjoyed having you again.5
(Applause.)6
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  I'm sorry.  Thomas,7
can we bring you back?  I'm sorry.  Susan, I totally8
missed your hand.  Please forgive.9
MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI:  Okay.  This is10
Susan Palmer-Mazrui for Cingular Wireless.  I11
apologize for making you come back.12
I was wondering if there was a possibility13
of addressing some of Larry's concerns.  I know in14
terms of numbers the complaints won't be in the top15
ten for accessibility or other pertinent issues.16
I'm wondering if there could be a section17
that would talk about concerns or trends or issues18
that might highlight the dedication that your staff19
has on the issue and that as well on a daily release20
that that goes out because I think that there really21
hasn't been a lot of information.  It may be resolved,22
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but you might prevent some complaints if companies and1
organizations know that you're looking into it and2
taking steps to resolve things.3
MR. WYATT:  I think that's something that4
we can consider doing.  I don't know whether that's5
something that would come out of one of the working6
groups, their recommendations, but we're certainly7
willing to take that up as a recommendation and see8
what we can do with it.  I think it would have some9
value to consumers.  So I'm certainly more than10
willing to take that up.11
It's a clarification question for Scott. 12
Scott, is that something that would come to us as a13
recommendation?14
MR. MARSHALL:  I'm sorry,  Thomas.  What15
was the question again?16
MR. WYATT:  Expanding the scope of our17
quarterly report to include complaints that don't fall18
within the top categories?19
MR. MARSHALL:  Sure.  Yes.  That certainly20
would fall into the consumer complaints outreach and21
education working group's purview.22
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MR. WYATT:  Again, I would be happy to1
take that recommendation and work with it.2
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Debbie, if your3
question is very fast?  It's got to be fast.4
MEMBER BERLYN:  I hope so.  I just wanted5
to ask what you do to anticipate a new and high volume6
of complaints that might be on the horizon.  For7
example, on the eve of the implementation of wireless8
LNP, actually wireline LNP, I'm just wondering if you9
have taken any steps to anticipate complaints on that?10
MR. WYATT:  Oh, boy, have we.11
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  There is your answer.12
MR. WYATT:  We learned many hard lessons13
over the years.  We know now that we need to prepare14
when there's a major initiative launched by the15
commission because consumers are going to call us,16
they're going to e-mail us, and they're going to write17
us.  We need to be prepared to take that18
correspondence and deal with it.19
So we've had very detailed training for20
our CAMS.  We have talked extensively with our21
colleagues in the Wallace Bureau to make sure that we22
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understand what we should be saying to consumers.1
We've talked to some of our counterparts2
in industry about issues and how they're going to deal3
with them so that we can be as consistent as possible4
so that we'll know where to steer consumers as well5
because our goal is to really get consumers an answer.6
And if we know where to send them out to companies,7
then that really helps our process.8
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you ever so9
much for coming back.10
(Applause.)11
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Just a reminder, the12
drill starts at five after 10:00.  You need to be in13
your rooms.  You cannot go visit other groups while14
that process is going on for about a half an hour. 15
After that, if you want to sit in on several of the16
other working groups, you can do that.17
Does anyone have any questions before we18
break?19
(No response.)20
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  You will be back here21
at 12:00 o'clock for lunch.  As far as where you're22
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going?1
MR. MARSHALL:  The rooms are right out2
this door to my right and down the corridor.  They are3
on either side of the corridor.  There is signage4
there for each group.  And we have FCC staff that will5
be able to direct you as well.  Again, the TRS group6
will stay right here.  And the other three working7
groups will adjourn to those rooms.  It's 402 and 4458
B and C are the actual room numbers.9
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  Thank you10
much.  We will be back here at noon.11
(Whereupon, at 9:49 p.m., the foregoing12
matter was recessed, to reconvene at13
12:00 noon the same day.)14
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A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N  S-E-S-S-I-O-N1
 (12:11 p.m.)2
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  If everyone would3
come back to the table, please?  We've got an4
interesting presentation during lunch.  I appreciate5
your courtesy in doing that.  Hint, hint.6
It gives me a great pleasure to turn the7
CAC over to Andrea Williams, who is one of our8
members, who is going to talk about some new9
developments.  I am going to let you just take it from10
there, Andrea.11
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Thank you,12
Shirley.13
PRESENTATION:  VOLUNTARY CONSUMER INFORMATION CODE14
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  first of all, I wanted15
to thank Shirley and Scott for giving CTIA the16
opportunity to talk about some of the things that we17
are doing with respect to wireless consumer18
complaints, how we are trying to make it better for19
our consumers.20
And what I am going to talk about today is21
the CTIA consumer code for wireless service and also22
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let you know where we are on wireless number1
portability.  As we all know, that's four days away. 2
And we will let you know where we are.3
One of the things that we wanted to do4
when CTIA was developing a consumer code for wireless5
services, we are trying to find as many opportunities6
as we can to get the word out to consumers, what it7
is, what they can expect.8
We thought it would be great to have the9
consumer advisory committee make a presentation to10
members since you represent some of the largest11
consumer advocacy groups as well as some of the state12
agencies that deal with consumers and as a vehicle to13
really help us get the word out to consumers so that14
they can get information so that they can make15
informed choices about their wireless services.16
On September 9th, 2003, we, CTIA, publicly17
announced the consumer code for wireless service.  And18
we unveiled what we call the official seal of19
wireless-quality consumer information.  What I am20
going to tell you about a little bit, what the purpose21
is and also in terms of what the purpose of the seal22
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is, this program that CTIA has developed has been over1
a year in developing.2
Really, it started, I would say, almost3
two years ago with a phone call from Thomas Wyatt and4
Martha Contee to me saying, "We see a trend in5
wireless complaints.  Come over.  Let's talk about it6
and see where we're going."7
The research director, myself came over. 8
We had a meeting with Thomas and Martha showing us9
where they had seen a spike in number of wireless10
complaints.  Around that time, also things were11
happening on the Hill and in California and other12
states in terms of wireless services and getting13
information to consumers.14
So what we did, as CTIA always does, we go15
to the heads of our member companies, which are16
presidents and CEOs, and say, "How can we help our17
customers understand better how to make informed18
choices about wireless services?"19
Believe me, when you get six major20
competitors sitting in a room trying to reach some21
consensus, it's not easy.  To say that we have come22
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this far in a year, believe me, someone called me. 1
They said, you know, "Andrea, I'm going to give you2
sainthood for hurting CAS.  It's called sainthood for3
hurting wireless members."4
We realize that as a growing industry --5
and right now, as many of you know, we have6
experienced a fantastic growth, particularly in the7
last couple of years.8
What we are seeing is over 115 million9
subscribers.  The interesting thing, even though we10
have a large number and we continue to grow, we are11
finding that per capita, our wireless complaints have12
fallen or are holding steady based on our meetings,13
the information that we are getting from the FCC.14
We realize as a growing industry that we15
also have a responsibility to consumers.  What we are16
trying to do with the code is to help consumers better17
understand what they can expect from the wireless18
service provider.  It's the wireless industry I feel19
that is making an important statement about our20
commitment to our customers and to service quality.21
There are three basic tenets of the code. 22
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First is to provide consumers with information to help1
them make informed choices in selecting wireless2
services, help ensure that consumers understand their3
wireless service and rate plans, and to continue4
offering wireless services that meet consumers' needs.5
What we did in terms of looking at what6
should be in this consumer code for wireless service,7
there are basically ten points.  There is a handout8
that sort of gives you -- I am just going to go9
through basically the basic what the ten points are,10
but there is more information in terms of defining and11
explaining each of those ten points.12
What we did with the help of the FCC in13
terms of they provided us with some of the informal14
complaints as well as the inquiries and also talking15
to some of the state consumer agencies and even some16
of the consumer advocacy groups, trying to identify17
what were some of the issues of greatest concerns to18
consumers.19
And we found that they would basically fit20
in three areas.  First was how rates and terms of21
service are disclosed, including clear service area22
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maps and addressing termination rights and privacy1
concerns.2
What we came up with, again, is this3
ten-point consumer code for wireless service,4
disclosed rates and terms of service to consumers,5
make available maps showing where service is generally6
available, provide contract terms to customers, and7
confirm changes in service, allow a trial period for8
new service, -- and as part of the code, the trial9
period is a minimum of 14 days -- provide specific10
disclosures in advertising, separately identify11
carrier charges from taxes on billing statements,12
provide customers a right to terminate services for13
changes to contract terms, provide ready access to14
custom service, promptly respond to consumer inquiries15
and complaints received from governmental agencies,16
and abide by policies for protection of consumer17
privacy.18
When we launch this, you will find that19
many of the nation's large carriers are implementing. 20
Some already have fully implemented.  Some are still21
in the process.22
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For example, Alltel; ATT Wireless;1
Cingular; Verizon; Nextel; Sprint PCS; for those of2
you in the Midwest, U.S. Cellular; T-Mobile; U.S.A.,3
all of them have adopted these principles of the code,4
not only our large carriers but we're also finding5
many, many of our small carriers are also adopting the6
code.  Again, we're still in implementation stages. 7
So you are going to probably see what I will next show8
you as a seal on various Web sites.9
This is a seal of wireless quality10
consumer information.  You've heard that saying, "Look11
for the seal."  That's what we want customers and12
consumers to do, is look for the seal of wireless13
quality consumer information.14
Not everyone gets to use a seal.  What the15
seal does, it marks a carrier's voluntary16
participation in CTIA's voluntary consumer information17
code program.  And it signifies that the carrier18
supports not only the basic tenets of the code but19
also that they adopt the principles, disclosures, and20
practices that are outlined in the ten-point that you21
just saw, and that they are fully implemented, those22
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practices, throughout their operations.1
So you can imagine for nationwide2
carriers, this has been a tremendous process for them3
over the last couple of months, particularly if they4
wanted to use a seal.5
At CTIA, with any type of seal, there is6
always the question, "Well, how can you assure that7
people are going to stay in compliance?"  What we have8
done, we have set up an annual certification process,9
which is handled by CTIA's legal department, Mike also10
and me.11
In order to be awarded use of the seal,12
the company has to adhere to all ten points of the13
consumer code for wireless services, not just one or14
whatever they feel like; all ten.15
They have to certify to us in writing that16
they have adopted and have fully implemented the code17
throughout their operations.  Usually that requires a18
signature from someone in senior management at the19
president/CEO level or senior vice president/executive20
vice president.21
What we have is an annual recertification.22
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If you're not in compliance with the code, you will1
not be permitted to display the seal.  I can tell you2
just from the three months of the program being3
launched publicly, the carriers, the seal has become4
very much a competitive issue among them.5
I get calls from my members saying, "Well,6
you know, so and so member has a seal.  And did you7
see their coverage map?  You need to take a look at8
this, Andrea" or I'll have carriers even saying,9
"Well, we were the first one to be certified.  So we10
get to use the seal first."11
So it's having the impact that we had12
hoped it would.  And it's making them aware, our13
members aware, that this is going to be an area where14
they are going to be competing for consumers.  And it15
makes good business sense to voluntarily adopt the16
code.17
Because we are a trade association, it is18
a voluntary process.  One of the interesting things I19
found out last week was that in I think one of the ETC20
proceedings, the carrier, one of the requisites that21
is being required in order to get ETC status, said22
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they have to adopt the code, the CTIA consumer code1
for wireless service, in order to gain ETC status.2
At CTIA, we feel that is a major, major3
event because what that says to us is that on a4
federal level, we're being recognized that this is5
something good for consumers as well as for carriers. 6
If you want ETC status, adopt the code.7
In terms of if you want more information8
on the consumer code for wireless service, you can go9
to CTIA's Web site.  I am going to see if this works. 10
It should come up.  Well, while we're waiting,11
basically if you go to CTIA's Web site, there is a12
display of the seal.  When you click that on, there is13
all of the information.  Most of this is information,14
what you have in your handouts in terms of the15
consumer codes.  There's Q&A's.16
At any rate, in terms of those of you who17
have consumer advocacy groups and state consumer18
advocacy agencies, if you like for CTIA to come and19
talk to your groups about the code of consumer20
wireless, the consumer code for wireless service, we21
would be happy to do so.22
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 It's important that we get this1
information out to consumers.  Feel free to link your2
constituents, your clients, the public, whoever you3
deal with, to our site where they can get information.4
Eva Won, who is dealing with the state5
level on these issues, she is the contact person at6
CTIA or you can always call me.  Everyone here I think7
knows where they can reach me.8
Shirley, do you want me to divide this up9
in terms of taking questions on this and then talk10
about wireless number portability?11
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Why don't we take12
questions on your code because I have one?13
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Sure.14
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  I like what you're15
saying.  The question that I have for you is when,16
let's say, I as a consumer go to a retailer of17
wireless phones and services.  What is their18
obligation to provide me with this information?  You19
are talking about the major carriers; correct?20
Let's suppose I go to a small company that21
is a seller of these services.22
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MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Well, the wireless1
consumer code, we only represent carriers.  And we do2
have some members who are -- well, just one, really,3
Virgin Mobile U.S.A.  This is not something that we4
have heard yet.5
I think what you are talking about is the6
retail distribution program, like the Best Buys and7
the Radio Shacks.8
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Yes, or small vendors9
who also sell phones.10
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Like kiosks in the mall?11
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Yes, whatever,12
whatever size they might be.13
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Right.  We would love to14
have them.  Would they participate?  Right now the15
code is just being launched and implemented in the16
carriers' stores.  Unfortunately, we do not have, the17
trade association does not have, a relationship with18
those entities.19
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  The company20
ultimately is going to have me as a customer, one of21
your wireless carriers, right?  So would the carrier22
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then send me the information on the ten points and1
deal with me directly?2
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Yes.  You can go3
directly.4
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  I may not get it from5
this independent retailer, but I would get it from the6
carrier?7
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Yes.8
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.9
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Any carrier who10
voluntarily is participating.  And, as I said, on11
their Web site, you have a seal.  I wanted to show you12
what some of the carriers have also put out, brochures13
with this information as well.  All you have to do is14
call their customer service.  They'll send you the15
information you need.16
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Why don't we see? 17
Susan has a question and then Debra.  Oh, she has a18
follow-up to mine if you don't mind.19
MEMBER BERLYN:  Thank you.20
Wouldn't this code be on information when21
you go to purchase your wireless phone?22
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MEMBER WILLIAMS:  It is really up to the1
carriers in terms of how they display the information.2
Some carriers I know -- Susan, I hope you don't mind3
if I pick on you -- Cingular.  When you go to4
Cingular's Web site, there's a seal there.  You click5
it on.  And up comes the information on the ten-point6
program.7
Cingular also has in their stores at the8
point of display information about the code.  Also in9
their advertising, they have, in fact, said, you know,10
first nation carrier to be certified to use the seal. 11
And it has a number there where you can call to get12
additional information about the code.13
We wanted to also make the code in terms14
of how they use the seal flexible so they could use it15
in their advertising, their marketing, if they want to16
use it in their radio ads, if they wanted to use it in17
their television ads.18
 You have to remember we're dealing with19
not only nationwide carriers but also small carriers,20
rural carriers, and the goal here was to make it broad21
enough so everyone could use it.  Sometimes you have22
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different needs.  So that was quite a challenge.1
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  All right.  Susan?2
MEMBER GRANT:  I have not only a question3
but just to follow-up on Debra's point.  I think the4
point that she was making was that for the disclosure5
parts of the code, those are only meaningful if6
they're before the transaction has been completed, not7
afterwards.8
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Yes.  That's why in your9
information there is some more information in terms of10
what that entails in terms of disclosure.  Each of the11
carriers had decided how they are going to disclose12
those terms and conditions.13
It may be, for example, some carriers have14
decided to do it when you purchase your Cingular15
phone, your Cingular service.  You get all of this16
information in terms of what the ten-point code is,17
who you can call, and things of that nature.18
So it's really allowing the carrier the19
flexibility.20
MEMBER GRANT:  Okay.  Well, actually, that21
wasn't my comment or question, but I just wanted to22
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put that out.  So here's my comment and question.1
The comment is that National Consumers2
League has a very popular brochure, "Going Wireless,"3
which we developed with a grant from Sprint.  We are4
revising it slightly because of number portability and5
also translating it into Spanish.  If that is6
something that your members would be interested in7
using as an educational tool for consumers, we would8
love to talk to you about that.9
My question is, in regard to the bullet10
point in the code about abiding by privacy policies,11
what privacy policies are those?  Does CTIA have a12
privacy policy that --13
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  These are the privacy14
policies that each of the companies have developed for15
their own companies.  As you know, because you're16
dealing with a lot of the subscriber information; for17
example, even in wireless, there are certain ways that18
we have to handle customer proprietary network19
information, CPNI.  What that is saying that you agree20
that you are abiding by the CPNI rules, whatever state21
rules that there may be in terms of privacy, whatever22
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your own company policies may be in terms of privacy1
issues.2
MEMBER GRANT:  Okay.  Thank you.3
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  I think we're4
going to have to move on.  Maybe we can hold the5
questions until your next presentation and then if6
it's appropriate if you've got time.7
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Okay.8
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Because we want to9
get people a little bit of a break before we start our10
1:00 o'clock program.11
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Right.  Wireless number12
portability or, as we at CTIA know it as, a lot of13
sleepless nights lately.14
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Say that again.15
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  A lot of sleepless16
nights lately.  We have four days to launch on17
November the 24th.  I think this has been one of the18
most labor-intensive processes that we have been19
working on, particularly in terms of our networks,20
doing the appropriate testing, and getting technically21
what needs to be done to make this as smooth and22
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seamless as possible for customers.1
Basically, as we define wireless number2
portability, it means keeping your existing phone3
number and choosing the new carrier to provide your4
service.5
We have over the months been working on6
what we call wireless-to-wireless porting in terms of7
taking your number from one wireless provider to8
another.  Just last week we got an order from the FCC9
what I call explaining the rules of the road with10
respect to inter-carrier from wireline to wireless. 11
I'll talk about that a little more in just a moment.12
As you know, starting Monday, wireless13
number portability is going to be available in the 10014
largest metropolitan areas nationwide.  This is going15
to be one of our challenges we know in terms of the16
top 100 MSAs.  There are various definitions floating17
around in terms of what constitute the top 100 MSAs.18
Again, as I said, we have been working19
24/7 for months now trying to make this as pleasant20
and smooth as possible for consumers.  And, again,21
this sort of dovetails into our whole overall consumer22
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information program in terms of helping our customers1
understand and prepare for in this instance the2
porting process.3
What we have done at CTIA, we launched a4
consumer Web site.  Let's see if we can try this again5
now.  Hopefully this one will work.  There it goes. 6
What it does is it explains the meaning for consumers7
in terms of what it means for number portability and8
available, again, in the top 100 MSAs.  As you can9
see, we have over here a map.  We've got to give them10
a list.11
The most important thing is that it12
provides what we consider are very good consumer tips13
and frequently asked questions on what they should14
know if they plan to change their number, move their15
number from one wireless service to another.16
I know we are sort of short on time, but17
I just want to give you an idea of some of the things18
that it tells consumers, like explaining how you can't19
take your number if you live in California and you20
want to port your number to D.C.  Well, you can't take21
the same number because it's not within a local area.22
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We have some issues again with the1
wireline, what we call intermodal porting in terms of2
what do you consider local in terms of I guess the3
best way, what we call rate centers.  And that's an4
issue that hopefully the FCC is going to resolve for5
us by Monday; if not, maybe the courts.6
Also, in terms of what you should bring7
with you, knowing your current contract, finding a new8
phone and a new plan that fits for you.  We also want9
to go to consumer tips.  Well, that's taking too long.10
A copy of the consumer tips is in your brochure.11
What I think we are trying to help12
consumers understand is what is happening behind the13
scenes in terms of yes, this is a complicated process.14
What we are hearing from a number of analysts is that15
we can anticipate 15 to 20 million porting requests16
within the next 10 months.  The concern is, especially17
within the next week, how many of those 15 to 2018
million people will be moving.19
Also in the site, we have basically a20
step-by-step process that explains to consumers what21
they can anticipate.  This is what I show people in22
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terms of this is what is happening behind the scene1
when you want to port your number.  And, as you can2
imagine, any break or any glitch in one aspect of3
those arrows can create some glitches.4
We anticipate yes, there are going to be5
some glitches the first couple of weeks.  And we are6
doing our best, believe me, to work with our customers7
and work through those glitches.  Our brethren over on8
the wireline side, we have learned some things from9
them in terms of managing customers' expectations,10
which we know is going to be a challenge.11
In terms of the industry readiness, we12
have been testing our systems, our networks carrier to13
carrier in terms of wireless to wireless carrier.14
At this point we have what we call in the15
wireless world network lockdown. And that means that16
after November 18th no additional software can be put17
into the networks.  So it is what it is, the network,18
at this point.19
There is a lot of training going on in20
terms of customer service and sales staff.  I just21
found out last night from my sister, who works for22
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Nextel in human resources.  She said, "Oh, I went to1
my number portability training today."2
And I said, "You're in human resources." 3
She said, "Everybody in Nextel has number portability4
training."  And she said, "Oh, don't worry."  She5
said, "I understand all of our competitors are doing6
the same thing, too."7
The other readiness in terms of consumer8
education, CTIA's easy porting Web site is one thing9
that we are doing as a trade association; also, each10
of the carriers has on their Web sites or you call11
their customer service, have information to help12
consumers to understand what the porting process is.13
We also had a meeting last week with14
Thomas and Martha in terms of what we can anticipate15
in terms of some of the glitches, where some of the16
problems may be so we can anticipate educating with17
their respect CAMS, their customer service people and18
those particular problems that may come up.19
CTIA is a trade organization. We continue20
to monitor the testing on a daily basis.  And we're21
keeping our members informed of any developments with22
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respect to inter-carrier communications for the1
process.2
I must tell you because of the lateness of3
FCC's order with respect to wireline to wireless4
porting, it has not been as fully tested, I would say,5
as wireless to wireless because there were some things6
that we really still needed some guidance from the7
FCC.8
Wireless industry, we are planning, anyone9
who comes to us with a wireline phone number and they10
want a port, we're going to be there ready to help11
them.12
Basically, here are some of the challenges13
that we foresee over the next couple of months,14
particularly the first two weeks of implementation. 15
One is managing consumer expectations.16
To give you a class example, this morning17
I was coming over in the cab.  The taxi driver said to18
me, "Oh, where are you from?"19
I said, "Trade association."20
"Oh, wireless?"21
 I said, "Yes."22
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He said, "Oh, I'm going to be able to move1
my number."  He said, "I already know what service2
provider I'm going to."3
I said, "Well?"4
He said, "Do you think it's going to be5
easy?"6
I said, "Well, we're going to try to make7
it easy."  And I said, "What carrier are you going8
to?"9
And he said, "Well, I'm going from carrier10
A to carrier B."  I can't tell you because both of11
them are my members.12
Well, carrier A has one type of digital13
technology that's, say, CDMA.  Carrier B has another14
type of different technology that's, say, GSM.  I15
said, "Well, you know, you may have to get a new16
phone."17
"No.  I want to keep my same phone."18
I said, "Well, you have two different19
digital technologies.  And the phones are not going to20
work.  The same phone is not going to work on both21
systems."22
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He said, "Oh.  So I'm going to have to buy1
a new phone.  I didn't plan on that.  I'm glad you2
told me that.  I don't know.  Well, do you think3
they'll give me a deal?"4
I said, "Hey, I don't know.  You have to5
talk to them about that."6
And then there's also in terms of early7
termination of contracts, that's why we tell you8
please, please, please read your contracts because9
just because you have the opportunity to port, you10
need to understand that if you decide to leave a11
carrier, say you have a one-year contract and your one12
year is not up, you may have to pay early termination13
fees in accordance with the contract.14
The other issue in terms of managing15
consumer expectations is how long the process is going16
to take.  As I said, I showed you that chart before. 17
One glitch can create a problem.  We're going to try18
our best to get the porting process done within two19
and a half hours, but it may be longer.20
One of the things that came up at our21
executive committee meeting was in terms of business22
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customers.  For the wireless industry, say, for1
example, -- I'll use my husband's company --2
Bridgestone Firestone has an account with, let's say3
-- I'm going to pick on you -- Nextel and my husband4
decides he wants to change his service from Nextel to5
Cingular.  Well, he is not the customer.  Bridgestone6
Firestone is.7
So he may go into a store saying,8
"Cingular, here is my number.  Port it."  Well, he is9
not going to be able to because in terms of10
authorization, Cingular is not going to be able to11
move that individual because the customer is12
Bridgestone Firestone.13
So helping consumers to manage their14
expectations, again, we are going to be ready as much15
as we can be.  We do expect glitches, you know, but16
we'll work through them.17
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Andrea, I think we're18
going to have to call it a halt.  I'll give you19
another minute.20
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  In terms of some21
of the other challenges, I have them listed here.  I22
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think in terms of the fringe counties, again, that's1
a top 100 MSA issue.  We're finding that depending on2
if you use OMB or if you use Census Bureau, the top3
100 MSA may vary from one carrier to another.4
So carrier A may say, you know, "Howard5
County is in the Washington, D.C. area, top 100 MSAs,"6
and another carrier may say, "Well, no, not according7
to the Census Bureau."  So we expect some problems8
there as well and also with retail distribution9
outlets.10
Again, you have your Best Buys, your Radio11
Shack.  As you know, with a competitive wireless12
industry, they're selling five, six different service13
providers' services and may not have the level of14
knowledge as a store would have, what I call a15
carrier-owned store.  So we're expecting some16
challenges there.17
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Thank you ever so18
much.  I appreciate it very much.19
 MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Okay.20
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  We have a ten-minute21
break.  You need to be back here at 1:00 o'clock22
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promptly.1
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Thank you very much.2
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Thank you.3
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  And if anyone has any4
questions, I'm here.5
(Applause.)6
(Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off7
the record at 12:50 p.m. and went back on8
the record at 1:08 p.m.)9
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Please, if I could10
have your attention?  We have some guests with us, and11
we would like to welcome them.  So, please, if you12
could take your chairs, we would really appreciate13
that.14
It gives me a great deal of pleasure to15
welcome I believe the newest commissioner to the FCC,16
Commissioner Jonathan Adelstein.  We're lucky to have17
you with us here.  Thank you for joining us.18
(Applause.)19
MR. ADELSTEIN:  Thanks for having me.  I20
just wanted to thank you all for all the work you do21
on behalf of all of my colleagues.  I know how much22
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time and effort you put into these issues.1
It means a lot to us.  For example, we're2
really looking forward to hearing what you have to say3
on the TRS working group report.  That's going to I4
think form a basis for our actions.5
We're hoping to move quickly on that6
because we take the kind of work that you do extremely7
seriously.  We're hoping, for example, on the TRS to8
try to get an item moving early next year.  Your input9
on that is going to be the basis for our items.10
Just know that what you're doing here is11
going to see the light of day, that we are going to12
move on it.  Things like this are so crucial in the13
context of homeland security and the need for all14
Americans to have all the protections that they15
deserve.16
So it's wonderful to be here.  I see that17
we have ARP here today.  Reading the headlines this18
morning, I think this is a safe haven for you.19
(Laughter.)20
MR. ADELSTEIN:  You are all welcome here. 21
And we really do appreciate all the work that you do. 22
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I just wanted to let you know that we take it so1
seriously and that we plan to actually act on it and2
to thank you for your time and your dedication to3
serving us with nothing but the goodness of your4
hearts and knowing that you're doing the right thing5
for your country and to help us to do the right thing6
for the consumers, who are also the most important7
constituency that we serve.8
Our job, we have a telecommunications act.9
In the Telecommunications Act of '34, we focused on10
the public interest over 100 times.  So it forms the11
very essence of what Congress intended us to do.  And12
the public interest is shaped by what best serves13
consumers.14
So this is a crucial activity that you're15
involved in, and we really appreciate all your help16
and your input.  So thank you for being here.17
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Thank you so much. 18
We really appreciate it.19
(Applause.)20
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Do you want to take21
a couple of questions?  Do you have time to take22
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questions, a couple?1
MR. ADELSTEIN:  Sure.  If there is2
anything that you would like me to respond to, I would3
be happy to.  I don't want to impede your work, but is4
there anything on your minds?5
(No response.)6
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Thank you so much.7
MR. ADELSTEIN:  All right.  Well, thanks8
for --9
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  We really appreciate10
your being here.11
MR. ADELSTEIN:  Sure.12
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  I would like to take13
this opportunity to welcome Dane Snowden, who is the14
chief of the Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau15
and a familiar face to all of us.  Welcome, Dane.16
(Applause.)17
 MR. SNOWDEN:  Hello, hello.  I thank you18
very much, Commissioner Adelstein.19
INTRODUCTION OF THE CHAIRMAN AND COMMISSIONERS20
MR. SNOWDEN:  It's good to be back here21
with you guys.  It's been a little while.  I apologize22
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for being a little bit tardy.  I was on a phone call1
dealing with some local number portability issues, and2
I saw Andrea's presentation from my office.  So good3
job, Andrea.  I won't belabor some of those points.4
Before I got into some of my comments5
today, I wanted to introduce two members from the6
commission as well, Christopher Libertelli, who is the7
chairman's senior legal adviser.  You all may8
recognize Chris used to be a legal adviser in the9
Wireline Competition Bureau, and he moved up to the10
chairman's office and now has assumed the ranks as11
being the senior legal adviser.  So he keeps all of us12
in line.  Jennifer Manner, who is a legal adviser to13
Commissioner Kathleen Abernathy.  They wanted to come14
down and show their thanks and appreciation for all15
that you all do in serving on this committee.16
I wanted to join Commissioner Adelstein17
and others in saying welcome and thank you very much.18
UPDATE ON THE CONSUMER &19
GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS BUREAU20
MR. SNOWDEN:  It's been a very busy time21
since the last time you all were here.  We've gotten22
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a lot of things done, as you might imagine.1
Of course, I would be remiss if I didn't2
mention the TCPA and what we have done with the3
national do not call registry.  As you know, this has4
gone back and forth.  As we like to say, we are5
cautiously optimistic that the 54 million Americans6
who signed their name up on that list will be proven7
right and will be allowed to have this list and this8
registry stay in business, as it is right now.9
As you know, the registry and the issue of10
the constitutionality of it involved many courts. 11
And, of course, as I said earlier, it involved a12
district court judge, two federal courts, two federal13
agencies, United States Supreme Court, the White14
House, and the U.S. Congress.15
An interesting fact is that the U.S.16
Congress when the constitutionality of the do not call17
list was called in question, the United States18
Congress acted the quickest they have ever acted in a19
peacetime setting ever.  So that tells you, I think,20
our folks on the Hill realize that the Americans21
across the country wanted this list, they need this22
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list, and they are going to get this list according to1
what we are doing and what they are doing as well.2
I did want to mention some outreach3
activities that we have been working on here at the4
commission.  In August, we launched, the chairman5
launched, a rule, outreach initiative, where we are6
looking at ensuring that Americans across the country,7
particularly in rural America, have access to8
telecommunications services that so many of us who9
live in urban areas have.10
Just a couple of weeks ago, we launched a11
telemedicine effort, where we went down to the12
University of Virginia and saw firsthand how the goals13
of universal service, that fee we all pay on our14
telephone bill, how it's being put to use in rural15
America, ensure that medical attention is given to16
those Americans who live in rural America, the same17
levels that they are giving to all of us in urban18
areas.  So we are very excited about that.19
Part of that initiative will be doing more20
outreach events in rural America, partnering with the21
Appalachian regional council and other members in22
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rural America.  We are going to look at the delta1
communities; the breadbasket area; and, of course,2
Alaska and our tribal partners as well.  So there is3
a lot of activity coming from the commission on that.4
We also had an E911 coordination5
initiative, which was in October.  This is an6
important initiative because we believe and the7
chairman has said it quite clearly that if you pay on8
your wireless bill for E911 every month, you should9
have it.10
And so the commission, the chairman is11
using his bully pulpit to galvanize and pull and12
coordinate all of the parties together because we13
don't regulate all of the parties who are involved in14
the E911 process.  So we want to make sure that what15
we can do as our part is pulling everyone together.16
We recently had the governors' designees17
from across the country come and participate with us,18
talk about the issue, and what are the challenges that19
we're seeing that are being faced with having20
deployment with E911.21
We like to tell consumers, quite candidly,22
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decide on a carrier based on their E911 service.  That1
is very important.  Use that as a discriminate point2
of why you're going to purchase a particular product. 3
So we'll have more coordination issues in 2004, but4
rest assured this is a priority for the commission as5
we move forward.6
Finally, I would be remiss if I didn't at7
least mention local number portability, which is the8
topic du jour, which seems to be more the topic of the9
month.  I don't know how to say "month" in French, but10
topic of the month.  I can say mesa, which is in11
Spanish.12
We are very excited about this, the13
chairman on down.  We are leading our own.  Along with14
the members of the industry, I know CTIA is involved15
is involved in this as well.  We are leading our own16
campaigning, making sure that people are aware about17
what the options are about local number portability.18
This is a great, great thing for the19
American consumer.  Consumers wants it.  I know there20
might be some, even some in this room, -- I'm not sure21
-- who might contest our rules, but rest assured the22
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commission will stand to fight any legal opposition1
that comes toward us because this is something that we2
think is right.3
It's good for competition.  It's good for4
consumers.  And I have to say it's also good for the5
industry as a whole because it will make the industry6
be more competitive and fight for your business.  And7
I think that's good ultimately for the American8
consumer.9
In conjunction with the local number10
portability, we, of course, have launched some of our11
fact sheets and our checklists of what consumers12
should know.  We, of course, are very clear in the13
sense that we understand that this is going to be a14
bumpy road over the next couple of months as we roll15
out local number portability, but we also know that we16
have got to start somewhere.  And we're starting on17
November 24th.18
The chairman, some of us, you see, were a19
little tired.  We have been up since 4:00 this morning20
doing a satellite media tour that the chairman led21
getting across the whole country talking about local22
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number portability to various television stations.1
He did that, and he is committed to that2
because he wants to make sure:  one, people know what3
is coming; and, two, what they need to do.  I think4
Andrea talked about this a little earlier, about some5
of the steps that consumers should do.6
One, in particular, we like to say is read7
your contract beforehand and if you do decide to port,8
bring a telephone bill with you because it makes the9
porting process go so much smoother.10
We are very excited about a lot of the pro11
consumer initiatives that we have taken since your12
last meeting.  We look forward to your guidance, your13
thoughts, and your comments as we go forward.14
I would like to say before I close and15
take some questions the work that you all have done,16
when I got a briefing from my staff on the working17
groups, I just want to say thank you and commend you18
for your good work.19
 As some of you know, I joined the20
commission about three years ago, when we had CDTAC21
and now CAC.  Quite candidly, -- and I don't mean to22
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talk out of school here, but, quite candidly, this1
committee was finding its way.  I can tell you now by2
looking at the great work that is being done, this3
committee has found its way and is doing the work that4
the commission needs it to do as we go through and5
navigate some of these prickly issues, these technical6
issues, but these very important issues.7
 So I want to thank the working groups for8
all of their hard work.  And, of course, you're not9
off the hook.  So we hopefully will continue.  Please10
note that our sincere thanks from the chairman on down11
for the good work that you all have been doing, I know12
on your own time, not just when you're here but when13
you're outside this building.14
So, again, I thank you for that, and I15
will be more than happy to answer any questions you16
have before I have to go back upstairs.17
Yes, ma'am?18
MEMBER RAGSDALE:  Hello.  Joy Ragsdale19
from NASUCA.20
Can you tell us more about the satellite21
media tour?22
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MR. SNOWDEN:  Sure.  It's a process where1
you can get the biggest bang for your buck in a way. 2
We started this morning.  The chairman had to be there3
bright and early.  We started at 6:00-something, first4
interview.  Literally you do a series of about 30-some5
odd interviews across the country talking about the6
same issue.7
Basically TV stations log in through the8
satellite and start asking the chairman questions. 9
Bless his heart, he had to answer the same question10
probably over and over and over and over and over11
again, but he got it down.  I'll tell you that.12
It is a great thing.  It allows us to13
reach as many Americans as we possibly can.  We14
targeted the 100 markets, the 100 markets that the LNP15
is rolling out first.  That was intentional because we16
wanted to make sure people in those markets who can17
get it right now are aware of what the process is. 18
And so it's our way of trying to reach out to19
consumers more and more as we go forward with these20
consumer-type issues.21
You will see us doing things like this or22
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something similar to this when we have consumer-type1
issues, when we talk about the triennial review.  It's2
not something that most Americans understand or care3
about, although it is important in terms of what4
happens in the telecom world for them.5
We want to make sure we can get out there6
on these consumer issues.  We didn't necessarily have7
to do them on the do not call because I think the8
media did a very good job of covering this issue.9
We believe that, as you have seen in some10
accounts in the industry as well, on local number11
portability as of Monday, we will see more and more12
media outlets taking the lead in the bandwagon of13
sharing this information with consumers across the14
board.15
So that's what happens.  It's a great16
thing.  It's not an easy thing.  I will say that.  And17
the chairman was a trooper for doing it because it's18
a long day.  As you know, as I said earlier, we got up19
at 4:00 in the morning to make sure we were there on20
time.21
MEMBER RAGSDALE:  Is it a taped show?22
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MR. SNOWDEN:  No.  They're live programs. 1
The way the media works is that obviously they do a2
live segment first.  And then they will package it and3
show it throughout.4
I'm sure a lot of stations will run it5
again on Monday because we did, of course, show it6
here in this market, in Washington, and run it across7
the country, Minneapolis, Philadelphia, North8
Carolina.  Again, I've been up since 4:00.  So I am9
kind of blurring my states right now, but it was10
across the country.11
Any other questions?  Yes?12
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  Larry Goldberg here.13
Can you tell me, do you know what the14
status is of the FCC's reauthorization on the Hill?15
(Laughter.)16
MR. SNOWDEN:  Didn't you hear me say I got17
up at 4:00 this morning?18
(Laughter.)19
MR. SNOWDEN:  I believe it is in the20
omnibus bill right now and it is not out of committee21
just yet.  So we are still waiting to hear, and we are22
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eagerly anticipating that we would get what we need so1
we can keep moving.  We're optimistic.  Put it that2
way.3
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Can you hear me?4
MR. SNOWDEN:  Yes.5
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  Dane, I know that over6
the last couple of months, you all, particularly your7
bureau, has been doing a lot of work with respect to8
tribal nations.  I'm wondering how receptive and9
effective you found the work in terns of the forums,10
the different forums, you have been having and are11
they well-attended?12
MR. SNOWDEN:  That's a great question, and13
it's not a plan.  I'm glad you asked that question.14
MEMBER WILLIAMS:  No.15
MR. SNOWDEN:  You allowed me to give a16
commercial without having to pay for it.17
As some of you may know, when Chairman18
Powell became the chairman, one of the things he said19
to me directly was we need to do more with our Indian20
relations.21
We have a responsibility, a22
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government-to-government responsibility, with our1
tribal nations.  There are about 550 tribal nations2
across the country.3
So we have embarked on a very aggressive4
plan to reach out to tribal communities.  Recently, in5
September, members of my staff and the Wireline6
Competition Bureau and International Bureau, we all7
traveled to Alaska because we are looking at the8
unique issues that relate to the individual tribes and9
also relate to different geographical regions10
throughout the country that deal with tribes.11
No one tribe is alike.  At one point in12
the commission, we had the idea of having a massive13
meeting with all of the tribes coming together.  And14
as we talked to the tribes, we realized that they are15
at different stages of development and growth.16
Some tribes have their own17
telecommunications facilities.  Some are trying to18
figure out how to get their schools up and running. 19
So when you have those two vast differences between20
the tribes, we needed to come up with something new,21
something different.22
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And so we have launched our Indian1
telecommunications initiative.  The goal behind it is2
to bring some of the programs that the commission has;3
for example, the expanded lifeline linkup program that4
is only available to individuals on reservations. 5
We're making sure people are aware of those programs. 6
We're also bringing the commission to them.7
It's interesting as you look at the8
various tribes around the country and the various9
stages of development that they're in.  We want to10
make sure that they have access to the commission. 11
And we have been doing that.12
So the answer to your question about how13
effective it has been, I am probably not the best14
person to ask, but I will tell you my opinion.  I15
think it has been very effective, but we have a lot16
more work to do.  And we are committed to doing that17
work in the months and years to come here at the FCC.18
Any other questions?19
(No response.)20
MR. SNOWDEN:  With that, again, all the21
best for a successful meeting.  I thank you again for22
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making your way here.  And if there is any time you1
are here in town, even if you are not here for a2
meeting, please let us know.  We will be more than3
happy to sit down and talk with you.4
I know I see some of you somewhat on a5
regular basis.  I see Claude in front of me.  So I6
look forward to seeing more of you more often.  And I7
hope you all have a wonderful Thanksgiving and safe8
travels back to your homes.9
Thank you.10
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Dane, thank you.11
MR. SNOWDEN:  Thank you.12
(Applause.)13
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  We really do14
appreciate the time you give to us, Dane.  Thank you15
ever so much.16
I would just like to ask Chris and17
Jennifer if they want to say any words or anything. 18
Jennifer I believe has left, but, Chris, thank you. 19
Chris Libertelli, as you just heard, who is from20
Chairman Powell's office, welcome.  Chris?21
MR. LIBERTELLI:  Thank you very much.  I22
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won't take up much of your time.  Jennifer did have to1
go upstairs because she had an outside meeting, but I2
wanted to come down and just echo what Dane had said3
and thank you very much for coming here and expending4
your efforts.  I know the companies that are5
represented here do this as a matter of largesse.  And6
we appreciate your efforts.7
I also did want to say that the chairman's8
office is working closely with Dane's shop on some of9
the TRS issues that I know the task force is working10
on.  We hope to move those recommendations into11
action, as Commissioner Adelstein said, in the12
beginning of 2004.13
So I thank you for those efforts.  Good14
luck with today's meeting.  And if there's anything15
the chairman's office can do to help you with your16
efforts, please don't be shy and let us know.  Thank17
you.18
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Thank you very much.19
(Applause.)20
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  I do have a few21
announcements and a little bit of housekeeping to make22
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I promised to make.  We will be taking requests for1
cabs at the break.  So don't let me forget to do that,2
those of you who want to get a cab.3
Also, I just want to tell you that the FCC4
has some new fact sheets on the Web.  So you may want5
to look them up at fcc.gov.  There's quite a list of6
things.7
As a matter of fact, I have some of them8
here somewhere if I could find them, but, of course,9
I can't, not when I need it.  That's what you get when10
you have a pile of paper in front of you.11
Here we go.  The fact sheets include12
digital radio, do not call, homeland security,13
wireless number portability, digital phone and people14
with hearing disabilities calling 911 from a wireless15
phone, DTV, and closed captioning.  And that's just a16
sampling.  So you may want to go visit.17
Another thing that I want to tell you, you18
may be getting a call from the General Accounting19
Office.  As far of their requirements and as they20
normally do, they are doing a study of all of the FCC21
federal advisory committees.  Of course, that's what22
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we are.1
So you may be contacted to learn about2
your experiences on the CAC, which is a normal thing. 3
This is part of GAO's responsibility to keep oversight4
over these committees.  So don't be alarmed.  Answer5
any questions that they might have.  And do say good6
things about your experience here.7
Some other items.  Our next meeting -- we8
have a question, David?  I'm sorry.9
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  Shirley, I hate to ask10
this, but is there any way we can get that phone11
number so that we can be sure to answer the phone,12
those of us who have caller ID who don't answer13
telephone calls from numbers we don't know, or would14
they be kind enough to leave a message so we can call15
them back and talk to them?16
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  I suspect if they17
want you, David, they will leave you a message.18
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  I don't know.19
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  I think they'll get20
you.  They'll get you, David, we promise.  It's21
unlikely that you will get a call, but I just want you22
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to know that if you do, that is what is going on.  So1
don't be alarmed about it.2
As you know, the next meeting is scheduled3
for the 26th of March.  The day before, the FCC is4
hosting a summit meeting of the stakeholders with5
regards to the needs of people with disabilities6
during a disaster or terror attack.7
Now, I know that this was discussed8
somewhat during the TRS working group.  And what they9
are looking for is what to do in terms of emergencies.10
This meeting is going to take place the11
day before the regular CAC meeting.  Then the12
recommendations that come out of that 25th meeting13
will be considered by us on the 26th as part of our14
agenda.  So you will have those agenda items will be15
added.  They have to be on the agenda, but we don't16
know what the items will be.  So they will be up for17
discussion and recommendations for the commission.18
I really want to thank Brenda Kelly-Frey19
for her taking the lead in a lot of this.  She has20
been one of the guiding lights behind the summit21
meeting, and we are really appreciative of that.22
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TRS working group will be taking the lead1
in terms of participating in the summit meeting.  I2
suspect if others of you are interested, that you3
would be welcome to join it if you're not on the TRS4
working group.  But, anyway, that's kind of the story5
there.6
Also, another item -- and if you have7
agenda items that you would like to suggest for the8
March 26th meeting, just to let you know, you have got9
to get it to us at least six weeks in advance because10
that's so we can meet the requirements of the Federal11
Register.12
So if you've got some thoughts in your13
mind that you want something to put on the agenda for14
the 26th of March, you have got to let us know as soon15
as possible, really, because the agenda gets really16
cram-packed and there's not always room.  So do17
forgive us if we can't accommodate your request for18
any particular item.  Sometimes we just have already19
made the plans.  Anyway, the sooner you let us know,20
the better.21
Now to get on to our next order of22
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business.  Does anyone have any questions on anything?1
Yes, Joe?2
MEMBER GORDON:  Can you give me some more3
information on the meeting on the 25th?  Is it in this4
room, the hours?5
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  I don't have that6
information.  Scott, do you have it?7
MR. MARSHALL:  I can give you a little8
information.9
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Here we go.10
MR. MARSHALL:  Hi.  This is Scott11
Marshall.12
Joe, this is still in the planning stage. 13
I suspect it will be an all-day meeting on the 25th. 14
And it would be here in this room.15
MEMBER GORDON:  Thank you.16
MR. MARSHALL:  Okay.17
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  Any other18
questions?  Are we okay?19
(No response.)20
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  All right.  Well,21
then let's just get right to the order of business,22
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which is to hear from our working groups.  I want to1
say again how really excited I am and Scott is and, as2
you can hear, from the commission at the work that is3
being done by the working groups.4
I mean, it really is a very important5
process that we have been going through.  And you all6
have done a great job.  And it's because of you and7
your leaders.  So we really thank you.8
We're going to start out.  What we're9
going to do, this is what we're going to have happen. 10
We're going to have working group recommendations. 11
And after each of those, we will take it either as a12
whole or if you feel that it's important that we13
divide up the recommendations into separate items,14
they will be voted on.  They will either be voted up15
or down as to whether or not they will be presented to16
the commission as a recommendation of the entire CAC.17
Does anybody have any questions about that18
process?19
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  We can have a20
discussion, right?21
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Oh, we may let you22
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talk a little bit, David, yes.  Yes, we are going to1
definitely have discussion.  I cannot believe this2
group wouldn't have discussion.3
Well, let's start out.  We are going to4
start out with the TRS working group, which, as you5
may recall, has been asked by the FCC to make comments6
on the TRS.  So we're going to have that.  Brenda7
Kelly-Frey is the chair.8
Brenda?  Thank you again, Brenda, for all9
the work you have been doing.10
And you do have summaries of these in your11
agenda in your folder.12
WORKING GROUP RECOMMENDATIONS AND PROGRESS REPORTS13
TRS WORKING GROUP14
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Good afternoon,15
everyone.16
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  And I should just17
explain something.  I'm sorry to interrupt you.  Each18
working group has a half an hour.  So we have to get19
to the issues, and then we have to get to the20
discussion, and then we have to get to the vote.  So21
we do have a jam-packed half-hour.22
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I will give you a little leeway because I1
am looking at the clock because I know it's not right2
at 1:30.  And I'm sorry.  I really forgot my whip3
today to get everybody in line.4
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Start?5
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Go.6
MEMBER KELLY-FREY (via interpreter): 7
Okay.  First of all, I want to thank the FCC and8
Chairman Powell for inviting us and providing us the9
opportunity to make recommendations from NASRA, the10
National Association of State Relay Administration,11
and TRS industry consumer action network, as well as12
the consumers.13
We would like to thank the members of the14
working group, Becky Ladew, Stephen Gregory, Claude15
Stout, Pam Stewart, Clay Bowen, Dixie at Hamilton, and16
Patty Bannier, and also Joe Gordon.17
The objective of the TRS working group18
was:  first of all, to address public access issues19
for TRS information and networks, to determine whether20
the FCC has the authority or the jurisdiction over the21
TRS national network and outreach, and also the22
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mechanism established for the network and outreach.1
Considerations given to TRS include as a2
priority restoration in emergency situations,3
providing the framework for the FCC's summit to be4
able to focus on homeland security issues.5
And Clay will also be speaking about6
addressing the public access to TRS information and7
network.8
MR. BOWEN:  I'm Clay Bowen with Virginia9
Relay.  Brenda and I were asked to present a workshop10
on national outreach at the National Association of11
State Relay Administration's conference in September.12
We had worked on this prior to the FCC13
NPRM on national outreach.  So we decided to take that14
workshop as an opportunity to get feedback from the15
membership, from the consumers, from the vendors, and16
from the other stakeholders that were in attendance at17
the NASRA conference.18
We thought this would be an excellent19
vehicle to get feedback from a very diverse group, all20
of which are involved in TRS, and get answers to the21
specific questions that were addressed to this group22
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in the NPRM earlier this summer.1
Our workshop was scheduled for 45 minutes.2
We went almost an hour and 15 minutes before we were3
cut off.  Dixie Ziegler of Hamilton and I stayed on4
stage for almost an additional half-hour.  We got a5
lot of information to bring back.6
We summarized that information.  And we7
presented it at the workgroup meeting, the CAC8
workgroup meeting on TRS, in September.  To summarize9
that real quickly, these are specific responses to10
questions that were in the FCC NPRM.11
Approximately ten percent of outbound12
calls result in hangups.  We found that no state or no13
provider actually tracked the number of hangup calls. 14
The ten percent figure was based on anecdotal15
information that we receive from state relay managers16
and from CAs themselves.17
We also found out that we could not18
determine that any far-reaching outreach efforts19
existed in the states.  There were certainly states20
that had outreach programs, but they were specific to21
that state.22
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Outreach activities were also maybe1
specific to a provider, meaning a particular provider,2
such as Sprint or Hamilton, would provide information3
or outreach to those states which they provided4
services to, but there were no nationwide efforts of5
a particular relay vendor for outreach.6
What came up, which was also referenced in7
the NPRM, was the information that's in the front of8
all telephone directories.  This is perhaps the most9
common form of outreach that is out there.  However,10
there are problems with that, too.11
The language that's in the phone books is12
not standardized.  It's different in different areas13
of the country, even in different areas of the state. 14
It's sometimes not understandable.  But it's most15
often discounted by businesses, by the hearing16
population as TRS being a service only for the deaf. 17
And it's not considered a part of a business or an18
employment opportunity or another way to communicate19
for the hearing population as well.20
Based on these recommendations, the TRS21
work group would like to recommend to the full CAC22
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committee that a coordinated information and outreach1
program can achieve a national consciousness on the2
use and benefits of TRS.  And that's their3
recommendation to this committee.4
In our research, we found that the state's5
programs, as I had said, were either specific to a6
state, specific to a relay provider, or we found one7
example very close to home, that back last year,8
Maryland produced a series of commercials on relay9
that were specific to Maryland.10
However, DeVanie and Associates, the11
company, the marketing company, that produced those12
commercials, also made a generic version of that same13
commercial that spoke only of state, your state relay14
center, your state relay provider.  Therefore, it15
became a commercial that could be used by more than16
one state.17
Virginia as well as Montana and some other18
states took advantage of that.  We purchased the19
rights to that commercial.  Our state did not have to20
pay the development cost, the production costs.21
It was a very good deal, thanks to22
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Maryland relay, for us.  You will note at the end --1
we are going to show those commercials right now --2
that these commercials had a space for a tag line that3
any state could use for this generic commercial.  So4
if we could show those commercials right now?5
(Whereupon, a videotape was played.)6
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Accommodation of those7
is now in the legislation.  And there is regulatory8
action guiding us to determine the results for the9
FCC's work that we currently have the authority and10
jurisdiction to be able to establish and identify a11
funding mechanism for a national network program.  And12
here are some of the examples.13
We have section 255 communication14
amendment, the House of Representatives report on ADA,15
section 4-I of the Communication Act of 1934, specific16
court cases related to interpreting and the FCC17
responsibility or jurisdiction as being expansive on18
that, previous involvement with consumer networks and19
outreach, and education programs.20
For example, we have things such as the do21
not call list.  That is one way that the FCC is22
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advertising.  Another example would be outreach to the1
tribal nations.2
Another one we recently heard of this3
morning is the satellite media tour by Chairman4
Powell.  So that's really cool.  So why not look at5
that for TRS?  Think about it.6
Now, next the FCC has asked us to decide7
if the FCC has the authority over the national network8
campaign.  And we would recommend yes, the FCC does9
have the authority based on the other prior examples10
that we have shown you.11
And the funding for the national outreach12
campaign can be done through TRS contributions from13
the various carriers and their customers and various14
other funding mechanisms that exist within the FCC's15
responsibility.16
We have met with NASRA as a committee. 17
And, as Clay mentioned, they are recommending, first18
of all, what you just saw and the TRS funding to be19
used for this as well as for national outreach20
programs.21
Also, we should establish a separate22
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advisory board to help the FCC to be able to set up1
national outreach campaigns.  We can help to develop2
an RFP to recommend and perhaps hiring a professional3
marketing firm under the FCC as well as a special and4
separate board to be established.5
And the TRS working group offers our6
experience and expertise in the selection of the7
process for the board members to establish that new8
advisory board.9
And our suggestion for the composition of10
that new advisory board on the network marketing we11
feel should be as follows.  There should be two deaf;12
two hard of hearing; two hearing; one speech-impaired13
people who have hard of hearing as well as children of14
deaf adults, otherwise known as CODAs.  We should have15
a deaf-blind participant.  We should have participants16
from the relay industry, two participants; as well as17
two from NASRA; one from an administrative position in18
terms of the interstate funding; and a representative19
also from the local exchange carriers, or LECs.20
So that would be a 16-member group for the21
advisory board.  And that should be sufficient to be22
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able to provide information, assistance, and advice to1
the FCC to be able to select a marketing company and2
proceed with that goal.3
MR. BOWEN:  There is already an interstate4
TRS advisory council that makes recommendations on the5
funding from the TRS interstate fund.  Their expertise6
lies in relay and relay products and in funding for7
relay.8
Both NASRA and the workgroup felt that9
there needed to be a separate, as Brenda has just10
described, advisory council with the expertise in11
marketing or marketing to consumers or marketing to12
the general public.  That's why we decided not to13
include that in the existing interstate TRS fund14
advisory council.15
 So if this is accepted by the CAC as well16
as the FCC, the interstate fund provider would then17
have two advisory councils:  one to oversee funding18
issues for TRS, one to oversee outreach.19
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Okay.  And then next20
we would like the FCC to consider TRS as a vital21
service to the deaf and hard of hearing community. 22
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Therefore, we believe that we should have1
telecommunications services as priority established2
for relay.3
And TSP was established in 1988.  At that4
time, there was no relay.  Relay came about about5
1991.  So relay was not included in the current TSP6
plan.  And we feel that that is very valuable for7
restoration for the relay so that deaf people will be8
able to get telephone service on an equal and fast9
level, basically equal to hearing people.10
The recommendations for the TRS workgroup11
include that there be a call center.  The relay center12
will be selected as determined.  And the TRS call13
center will be designated as a key telecommunication14
facility in America and will receive top priorities15
for restoration in consideration if there is in the16
event of bad weather or an act of terrorism.  That's17
looking at emergency situations.18
We are also discussing that it would be19
extremely beneficial for the individual states and for20
their TRS providers to establish some kind of21
operation plan for TSP, for their facilities with22
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their local PSAPs, 911 centers, and LECs.1
We also recommend that the FCC host a2
summit to address the different homeland security3
issues related to people with disabilities.  We would4
recommend that the FCC host a two or three-day summit5
to address those concerns, especially considering6
those related to deaf and hard of hearing individuals7
as well as other people who have disabilities.8
So it would actually be two separate9
summits:  one that would be an all-day summit focusing10
on the hard of hearing and deaf issues.  And the other11
would also be an all-day summit focusing on other12
disability groups.13
The deaf group has communication issues14
that are very unique to that group; whereas, hearing15
people with other disabilities do not have problems16
with communications in the event of an emergency.  So17
we feel that it is very important to have a separate18
day for each of those.19
And so then there would be one final day20
where both groups would combine and have21
representatives from each participating to present to22
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the full committee for homeland security individuals.1
That day I believe Scott mentioned would2
be like the 25th of March, for one day prior to the3
next full CAC meeting on March 26th.4
We also suggest that different5
representatives from the disability groups participate6
in the panel after they have already had their7
pre-summit meetings to be able to hear the various8
perspectives and concerns and issues from the9
different disability groups.10
We also would like to suggest establishing11
some kind of mechanism for ongoing consultation to the12
homeland security group for new issues, problems,13
concerns that come up in the future.14
We don't want to be a one-time summit15
where we consider concerns have been heard and then16
drop it.  We know that more things will be coming up17
in the future.18
Also this morning the TRS working group,19
when we met, there were some new guests that joined20
us.  And we discussed the video relay services.  After21
that meeting, we believe that there are different22
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issues related to video relay service that do not have1
the same type of problems within the TRS, including2
ethical concerns, funding, setting up the calls, the3
role of the video relay operator, -- the TRS operator4
is a different type of role -- the impact on the5
supply and availability of the interpreters.6
Once VRS expands, they are going to be7
using a lot of skilled interpreters.  So what is going8
to happen to the consumers in everyday life that need9
interpreters in the workplace, doctor appointments,10
you name it?  Will we have enough interpreters for11
that need, one-on-one meetings, and so forth?12
We also need to determine minimum13
certification for video operators and what that is and14
how that will happen as well as numerous other issues15
that can be coming up as we go along because it is a16
very new technology and people love it.17
And that is the end of my presentation. 18
I would like to thank you for letting me go over my19
time a bit.20
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  You actually haven't21
exceeded your time.22
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MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Oh, I haven't yet? 1
Really?2
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  You have done all3
right.4
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Can we advance now?5
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  No, you can't talk6
more.7
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Oh, well.8
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Actually, I think if9
we can discuss it, it's an excellent presentation,10
Brenda.  Thank you ever so much, really excellent.11
I guess the first question that I have of12
the group is to decide whether or not we look at these13
recommendations as a whole or whether there are some14
that you feel need to be broken out and voted on up or15
down separately.16
So, keeping that in mind, I have people17
who are here.  I saw Eugene's hand first and then18
Susan.  And then do we have somebody else?  Okay. 19
Eugene, do you have a question or whatever?20
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  Yes.  Thank you for the21
presentation, Brenda.  It was excellent.22
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I want a clarification on two issues.  One1
is on the advisory council, there was some mention of2
input from marketing people, but I think you really3
want to have some on the team from the get-go so you4
can carefully select your marketing company.  That may5
be useful.6
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  I think there was a7
bit of a misunderstanding in that. What we are8
suggesting is that those people who are on that9
advisory committee be subject matter experts on the10
marketing and outreach, in addition to their own11
expertise or experience in terms of the providers and12
the deaf consumers, but also be aware of that and the13
funding issues.14
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  My second area of15
confusion was related to the telecommunication service16
priority.  I'm not sure of what the existing hierarchy17
is and then, therefore, where in the existing18
hierarchy you are suggesting TRS be put.19
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  We as the working20
group have suggested that we be put at an equal level21
to the LECs for priority telephone to have restoration22
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of phone service.1
If a hearing person has the ability to be2
able to make a phone call after an emergency situation3
has occurred, then we expect that a deaf person should4
be able to have the equivalent telephone access.5
MR. BOWEN:  Just one thing that we added6
in discussion on that, Eugene, was that right now7
relay is not even on the radar screen when it comes to8
priority restoration.9
And relay to deaf and hard of hearing is10
dial tone.  And as dial tone is reestablished for the11
hearing community, it should also have a priority for12
the deaf community.13
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  Susan?14
MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI:  Thank you for doing15
a lot of work.  It is really clear that the group has16
done a tremendous amount of activity on this issue.17
In terms of the emergency servicing, there18
is one thing that was said that I want to make sure is19
not put into writing in the way that I heard it20
anyway, which was that people with disabilities other21
than hearing disabilities don't have communication22
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issues.  I think what was meant was have different1
communication issues.  So I just want to make sure2
that that is reflected in anything in writing.3
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  I think that is4
exactly right, Susan.  Thank you, Susan.  Yes, you are5
correct in the way that that was misinterpreted.  Yes.6
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  We have7
another question.  David?8
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  Hi.  This is David9
Poehlman, American Council of the Blind.10
Short one for a change.  The information11
about the summits and the way it is ultimately being12
divided up, one of the things that caught me as I was13
reading through this and listening to what was being14
said is that there would be a summit for the deaf and15
a summit for everybody else.16
The question that came to my mind was that17
there are hearing people who have communications18
problems that are similar to the deaf, as is19
illustrated with the use of the TRS systems.20
So would those people also not be part of21
the issues for the deaf summit that you are going to22
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hold?1
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  I'm not really sure I2
clearly understand your point, David.  Can you give me3
an example of who you might be referring to?4
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  People with speech5
communication problems are going to have difficulty6
communicating in the same ways that people who are7
hearing-impaired are going to have difficulty8
communicating.  The TRS centers should be up and9
running as part of priority restoration for them for10
the reasons as they need to be up and running for11
people who are hearing-impaired.12
You already acknowledged this.  So I was13
wondering why the statement that people with hearing14
impairments would be for one summit and the other15
summit would be everybody else.16
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  I think perhaps we may17
be mixing two different things here:  first of all,18
talking about telephone service priority, or TSP, for19
restoration of the relay so that it would be equal to20
any telephone service restoration for hearing people;21
and then in a separate issue, we would be talking22
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about a summit related to the homeland security1
issues, where we feel that communication issues are a2
problem for deaf people, who cannot hear what is being3
announced on the radio or sometimes captions are not4
happening on television or sometimes maybe there is a5
power outage and then deaf people have no way to get6
the information.7
Hearing people who have a speech8
disability can still receive the information and hear9
what is happening on the radio or on the television,10
but deaf people are stuck in the dark, so to speak.11
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  Oh, I see.  So you're12
saying the telephone communication is not part of the13
discussion for the summit.  It's only information14
dissemination that you're talking about.15
 MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Well, it can be16
inclusive of all of that, but we're happy to get any17
comments or feedback from any disability group to be18
included.  What will happen is on the final day, we19
will have a full summit with the combination of20
participants, hearing, deaf, disabilities in general,21
to discuss all the issues on the table and their22
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individual concerns.1
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  Okay.  Well, thanks for2
clearing that up.3
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Claude, I think we4
will give you the last question.  Okay.5
MEMBER STOUT (via interpreter):  Yes. 6
This is Claude speaking.7
From that summit, I think that the people8
with hearing disabilities as well as people with other9
disabilities will be able to discuss what more10
recurring issues we have.11
In relation to her experience and comments12
about electricity going off, we can not see captions13
on the news then.  And then we can't use our14
computers, and we can't get information from the15
internet.16
And so, of course, if we go to drive in17
our car, we can't listen to the radio in the car.  So18
now, as the laws are currently written, TVs have to be19
13 inches or above to include the caption chip.  And20
we would like to see the law or the FCC make an effort21
to determine if that is reasonable and if the22
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producers of TVs that are smaller, if they can and if1
they have like a battery, have that come with captions2
so that people are armed with more power or if they're3
on the road and can't use the radio, they could turn4
on a battery-powered TV with captions included and see5
what is going on with relation to the given emergency.6
So the goal is that we hope with the FCC7
and industry and government to be able to develop8
increasing capability and to plan and resign to the9
concerns and to handle the emergencies as they occur.10
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  And other thing that11
I would like to add as Sue McNeil, she can answer any12
of your questions about the homeland security issues13
because she is the deputy to Kris Monteith.  So also14
--15
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  We're running pretty16
late here, folks.17
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  I would also like to18
thank Tom Chandler for being able to come today and be19
willing to listen to our report.  So thank you.20
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Just a couple of21
items before we begin a general discussion, we are22
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going to set up a new working group -- we will talk1
about that in a little bit -- to meet the homeland2
security issues that you have suggested.  Brenda,3
thank you very much.4
Also, the items in your packet for5
discussion from the TRS working group, there are some6
additions, as you have just heard about the summit7
meeting and a couple of other things.  Those things we8
can vote on now, but we will need to get from Brenda9
her slides so that they can be included for the10
commission.11
So now my first question to you is, do you12
feel comfortable with accepting the things that the13
TRS working group has proposed or do you want some14
particular items of discussion?  Susan?15
MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI:  I would like to put16
it all together, but I would like to discuss a few17
things first.18
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.19
MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI:  I think I would20
feel comfortable with some discussion first.21
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  Well, all22
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right.  Does anyone else also want to discuss items? 1
Let me just get a sense of what time we are going to2
have here.  Andrea also.  Okay.3
One of the working groups has generously4
given us some extra time.  We can cancel the break. 5
So there are your choices.  So let's start with6
Susan's comments.  Then we'll go to Andrea.  Then7
we'll see if there's enough of a consensus that we can8
take a vote.9
MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI:  I like the idea of10
having the summit.  I am concerned about isolating it11
to people with hearing disabilities, although I12
understand functionally why that is the case.13
I do have concerns that one of the issues14
from consumers that I have worked with around the FCC15
is a sense that maybe there's more concern, certainly16
because of the regulatory issues in the past and some17
of the legal things, that they're only concerned about18
those disabilities.  I don't believe that that is the19
case.20
 I don't think anybody here at the table21
believes that that is the case.  My concern is that22
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coming out with this and saying this is first maybe1
lend some credence or encourage people to think along2
those lines.  And I was wondering if the group would3
consider a general disability one.4
Obviously it's going to be heavily5
weighted toward hearing disabilities because of the6
issues that Claude mentioned, but I think if it is7
open and the agenda is open, that may help a little8
bit in terms of outreach to other communities as well,9
even if it is two days broken up into some other10
means.  So I was wondering if that was a possibility.11
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  If I can answer that,12
I think what Brenda has proposed -- and correct me,13
Brenda, if I am wrong here -- is that we have two14
days, one day with the deaf community and the other15
day with the homeland security issues for members of16
groups with other disabilities.  So that we're looking17
at then coming together on the third day.18
 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI:  Yes, I do19
understand that.  I am just saying that if that is the20
case, then I am concerned with the PR issue, really.21
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Oh, you mean the PR22
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issue for TRS?1
MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI:  No.  For the FCC.2
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Oh, I see.  Okay.3
MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI:  If you do one4
first, it looks like it's more important.  And that's5
the only thing.  If it's mixed in some way -- and I6
understand the issue with transportation and other7
things.8
I am just wondering if the group is9
willing to write it up some other way just to make it10
seem as though it's more across this vote,11
all-inclusive, although certainly I understand that12
some of the issues are certainly more heavily in terms13
of the deaf and hard of hearing.14
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  We have got a15
lot of hands up on this issue.  I think I saw Patty16
first.  Then, David, I will come to you.17
MS. BANNIER:  This is Patty Bannier.18
I just think I want to clarify.  I can see19
your concern about having one meeting one day and a20
second meeting on a different day.  It certainly could21
be that both groups meet at the same time.22
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The importance was that all of the various1
disability groups had an opportunity to really hash2
out what their specific concerns were so that they3
weren't overlooked.4
So if there was one day where the5
deaf/hard of hearing group got together specifically6
to address those issues, at the same time other7
disability groups could get together and discuss their8
concerns, then they could meet together and be more9
solid on the specifics of what is involved before they10
would go to meet with any technology provider or start11
to determine what needs to happen to resolve it and12
what is the best way to do it.13
Would you agree with that, Brenda?14
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Susan, does that15
address some of your concerns?16
MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI:  I think if you're17
talking about also having dates available when you're18
talking about it or there are other things because I19
think the response could very easily be, yes, we will20
have that meeting, maybe they will have something21
later.  I think we just have to be really sensitive to22
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some of the concerns in other groups.1
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  If I understand it2
correctly, what Patty is saying is to have them both3
on the same day.4
MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI:  That would address5
my concerns, but also I think --6
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Yes.  That's what she7
was saying.  She was saying to have the two groups8
meeting on the same day and then coming together on a9
second day, which really makes sense, coming together10
on the second day to address issues of common concern11
and your unique concerns.  Does that address your12
issues?13
MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI:  Yes.14
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  All right.  Now let15
me see.  I've got some other hands here.  David?16
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  This is David Poehlman,17
American Council of the Blind, again.18
That once again whittled me down to19
something short.  I propose for the sake of marketing20
that we call this something like consumer21
telecommunications homeland security summit or event22
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or whatever you want to call it.  And then we can1
bring everything in and set it up the way we need to.2
I think, for example, one day with two3
tracks and another day with everybody coming together4
may be a good idea.  We may just find we need three5
tracks.6
The only reason that I mention this is7
because if we open it up in such a fashion as we have,8
advocacy organizations, consumers themselves, various9
groups that deal with various issues that are10
concerned with the kinds of things that are going to11
be dealt with concerning homeland security, that we12
can get a lot of good momentum.13
I just want to say that this discussion14
again and this report have pointed out once again my15
request and my continued cry for captioned radio.16
Thank you very much.17
 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  And, Claude,18
you had a comment.19
MEMBER STOUT:  Yes.  Let's call March 25th20
the summit.  And any meeting prior to that, let's not21
call it a summit.  It will just be a meeting of the22
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working group because you may have the one group1
involved with people with hearing disabilities and2
another group involving individuals with other3
disabilities.4
And that way when we all meet together, we5
can see where it is we have common concerns and issues6
and where they might be different.  So that way we can7
put it all together.8
And then when CAC has their meeting on the9
26th, we can address all the issues as needed so that10
they are all issues for people with disabilities, not11
making such a distinct separation.  That way we can12
avoid the mentality of one size fits all because that13
is not what we are functioning on.14
We need to address as much as possible15
issue by issue because of the various disability16
groups' concerns.  So we want to start with that and17
then go from there.18
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Thank you, Claude. 19
I think you put that extremely well.  That's a very20
well-thought-out approach.  I think that that is very21
true.  It would not be called a summit.22
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Can we put those issues aside in terms of1
what we call it and the structure and then vote on the2
content of what was presented here today as to whether3
or not we want to make these recommendations to the4
FCC?  Is this okay to move ahead?  Is everybody5
comfortable?  All right.  Then can we put it to a6
vote?7
Do we want to accept the recommendations8
proposed by the TRS working group?  May I see a show9
of hands for?10
(Whereupon, there was a show of hands.)11
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Well, I don't have to12
count.  I think that's unanimous.13
Thank you, Brenda, very, very much.14
(Applause.)15
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  We do need, Brenda,16
copies of your slides so that we can have all of the17
recommendations in writing.  Okay?18
 And now we are going to the broadband19
working group.  Larry Goldberg has been doing a20
wonderful job.  Larry, the floor is yours.21
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  Thanks.  If you don't22
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mind, I will just sit over here and do the report from1
here.2
 BROADBAND WORKING GROUP3
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  It's a fairly simple4
report.  It's a very big and meaty issue:  broadband. 5
It's broad, and it's slippery.  You have an excellent6
group that really is giving each other very good,7
respectable hearings to each other's issues.8
We have been fishing around a little bit9
for what our particular role and recommendations could10
be.  If you remember, we started with a panel here --11
I guess it was at our last meeting -- which aired a12
lot of really good viewpoints on particularly the13
issues of level playing field and regulation in the14
field of broadband.15
Our ongoing discussions on the phone and16
in person had us batting back and forth what exactly17
we could do to add to the record on broadband, which18
has been discussed quite a bit in public, quite a bit19
at the FCC.20
The various issues that we have brought up21
and some draft recommendations came down eventually to22
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what you have in your package today, but we have even1
more yet coming.2
What is interesting is that because issues3
of regulation and marketplace versus regulation are4
sometimes contentious, we wanted to try to come up5
with something that was very consensus-oriented6
without backing away from making a statement on the7
issue because we're all very strong proponents of8
making sure that broadband is available to anyone who9
wants it and accessible to anyone who wants it.10
So with that said, after a number of11
drafts, we looked at what we could say that would add12
to the record.  Should we suggest more study?  Should13
we suggest that maybe consumer information could be14
better written and the consumers could be better15
educated?16
And then, all of a sudden, the voice over17
IP issue raised itself up as one of the hottest18
immediate issues in the world of broadband and one19
that hasn't yet generated such a large public record20
where maybe we could add something to it.21
At virtually the same moment, the FCC22
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announced that they were going to have a notice of1
proposed rulemaking, that they were going to have a2
voice over IP summit.  And we felt like we should at3
least point up some of the issues we wanted to make4
sure the FCC was going to address in this summit and5
in the NPRM.6
At that point, the chairman issued his7
announcement about the summit and all of our issues or8
most of our issues that we wanted to make sure were9
taken up or named.10
One thing that was not specifically named11
in the release was access for people with12
disabilities, which certainly raised a concern.  And13
so we added that to our recommendation.14
I have just learned that it's confirmed15
that at the December 1st summit, there will be a16
representative to talk about disability issues and17
access to voice over IP.  So we feel pretty confident18
that before we have even released this publicly or19
voted on it, most of what we would like to recommend20
has already been accepted.21
I think it would still be a fairly strong22
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voice to have the entire CAC recognize that.  I'm not1
sure whether I need to read this full recommendation2
through.  It was all sent to you in advance.  And you3
have got it in various formats.4
It's mostly raising the issue that within5
the broadband world, voice over IP is a new service6
that is being offered over the changing world of7
broadband.  Though it's new, it has a potential to8
become a widely used service, offers all kinds of9
benefits but raises questions about the impact it will10
have on consumer issues.11
As new services like voice over IP blur12
the legal distinctions between communications13
services, it is important to identify consumer14
protections.15
We then recognized Chairman Powell's16
stated agenda for the upcoming forum and subsequent17
NPRM, "to explore the best means to achieve important18
health, safety, and welfare policy objectives, such as19
E911, universal service, and homeland security."  We20
urge the commission to also pay close attention to the21
additional issue of access for people with22
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disabilities.1
An interesting addition to that is that we2
stressed that these consumer protections can and3
should be addressed, regardless of the ultimate4
regulatory treatment of voice over IP, which means5
either through voluntary means, marketplace issues, or6
regulation, we feel strongly these issues must be7
recognized.8
I have a further report from today's9
meeting, but if we would like to take up this10
particular recommendation first, we could do that.11
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Larry, I want to make12
certain that we know exactly what we are talking about13
here.  So what you are really suggesting that we vote14
on is identifying the consumer concerns in terms of15
the changing communications market, that we recognize16
the chairman's statement and objectives and support17
and strongly encourage that they be followed, and also18
to pay close attention to the issues for the19
disability community.20
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  Right.21
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Now, if there22
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anything else that I have missed?1
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  Just the final statement2
that we are making it additional that consumer3
protection should be addressed, regardless of --4
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Oh, yes.  Okay.5
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  -- how voice over IP is6
treated, particularly on the issue of is it an7
information service, is it a telecommunications8
service.  Regardless of whether that's determined, it9
still should be addressed.10
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  All right. 11
Yes, you're right.  All of this is in the information12
that we distributed.  All right.  We can open the13
floor for discussion.  Yes, Brenda?14
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Hi.  This is Brenda15
Kelly-Frey representing NASRA.16
Larry, as you just said in your report,17
the OIP is growing and is projected as becoming a18
major future telephony service.  You may or may not be19
aware that TRS and 911 services have surcharges20
attached to the telephone bills to pay for TRS as well21
as for 911 and E911.22
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I want the group to also consider the1
ramifications of that TRS funding that happens to be2
based on land line phones as well.3
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  We absolutely recognized4
all of that within our group and realized that our5
group wasn't able to recommend that it be explicitly6
not included, but it absolutely has to be part of the7
record in the upcoming forum and in the ongoing NPRM.8
So we all recognize those are two of the9
big issues.  And that's why we made sure that it was10
added to the agenda but couldn't conclude where it11
should go, either way.12
MEMBER KELLY-FREY:  Right.13
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  We don't feel it's14
appropriate.  Does that state the sense of the group15
well enough?16
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  And we had17
Donald.  I think you put your hand up.18
MEMBER SNOOP:  Larry put it very19
succinctly.20
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  What is the21
other discussion that we have?22
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(No response.)1
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Oh, my goodness.  You2
are going to get us back on track?  I can't believe3
it.  Somebody wants to take a break.  Okay.4
Then shall we have a show of hands as to5
whether we accept the proposal from the broadband6
working group and present it to the FCC?7
(Whereupon, there was a show of hands.)8
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  You all are9
unbelievable.  That's great work.  Thank you, Larry10
and your groups.  We really appreciate it.11
(Applause.)12
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  And you'll be hearing13
from us further shortly about our next issues and our14
next recommendations.15
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  Well, I like16
that, too.  Thank you very, very much.17
We have done a lot of work in this last18
hour or so.  We have a 15-minute break.  Did you hear19
that, folks, 15-minute break?20
(Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off21
the record at 2:26 p.m. and went back on22
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the record at 2:45 p.m.)1
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  I think it's2
appropriate right now to talk about setting up a new3
working group.  That would be the working group that4
would address the disability issues that we discussed5
other than the deaf issues relative to homeland6
security.  Is that right?  Am I correct?7
Is anybody interested in setting up a8
group like this and working on it and then giving9
input to the committee?  Larry?10
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  I just have a question. 11
The FCC does have a network security and homeland12
security advisory committee already.  Some disability13
advocates are on that committee.  So I'm just14
wondering how that meets up with what this group would15
do.16
I know AFB is represented and others on17
captioning issues and things like that.18
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  I can't answer that. 19
Can you answer it, Scott?20
MR. MARSHALL:  No, but we will investigate21
it.  No, I can't answer that, Larry, at the moment. 22
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I know that there are some disability organizations1
involved with the homeland security policy council,2
which is another federal advisory committee here.  But3
I am sure that as this thing develops, we will be able4
to coordinate because there has been some information5
shared to date.6
Is Sue McNeil here?  She might be able to7
address it.  I can't.8
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  I don't see her.9
MR. MARSHALL:  I am sure we will take that10
all into account, Larry.11
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Nevertheless, that12
still brings me back to my original question, who13
would be interested in serving on a separate working14
group that would address other homeland security15
issues, other than the deaf issues?  I see Mike.  We16
see Rebecca.17
MR. MARSHALL:  Mike as in Duke.18
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Mike as in Duke.19
MR. MARSHALL:  Okay.20
 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Rebecca.  Mike21
DelCasino.  Anyone else?  Mark Pranger.  Susan, not22
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Susan Grant, Susan Mazrui.  Who else has got a hand up1
over there?2
Claude, do you have a question or you want3
to serve on something?  Did you have a question?  Oh,4
I'm sorry.  Okay.  You have to be careful when you5
stick your hand in the air.  I call on you.6
Anyone else?7
(No response.)8
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  So we've got9
the beginnings of a working group here.  Thank you all10
very much.  We'll get you set up into an e-mail list. 11
And maybe somebody will volunteer to be the chair of12
it.13
MR. MARSHALL:  And David was which David?14
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Which David?  David15
who?  Was there a David who volunteered?16
MR. MARSHALL:  I wrote "David" down.  No?17
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  No.  Mark Pranger.18
MR. MARSHALL:  Okay.  Review:  Mike;19
Larry; Rebecca; Mike Duke, that is; Mike DelCasino;20
Mark; and Susan.  Is that correct?21
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Yes.  Mike Duke and22
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DelCasino.1
MR. MARSHALL:  Okay.  Got it.2
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  Scott, this is Larry. 3
I don't think I volunteered.  I was just asking a4
question before.5
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Yes.6
MR. MARSHALL:  Oh, you didn't volunteer?7
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  No, no.  Thank you8
anyway.9
MR. MARSHALL:  You see, that's the10
problem.  All right.  Got you off, got you off.11
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Now, who have we got?12
Show the hands again.13
(Whereupon, there was a show of hands.)14
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  We've got Mike Duke,15
Mike DelCasino, Mark Pranger, Rebecca, and Susan. 16
Okay.  Good.  That's great.  Thank you all very much.17
 MR. MARSHALL:  Yes.18
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Then let's move on to19
our next working group, the consumer outreach,20
education and complaints working group, which is21
chaired by Joy Ragsdale.  Again, Joy, thank you all so22
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much for your work.  And you're going to start this1
off.2
CONSUMER COMPLAINTS, OUTREACH, EDUCATION AND3
PARTICIPATION WORKING GROUP4
MEMBER RAGSDALE:  Today we're going to5
give a presentation of the consumer outreach,6
complaint, education and participation working group.7
Because of the size of the group and the8
number of issues involved, we after the April meeting9
divided into three small groups.  Consumer complaints10
is chaired by Mike DelCasino.  Consumer outreach11
issues are chaired by Debra Berlyn.  And modernizing12
the FCC and addressing electronic access issues is13
chaired by Susan Mazrui.14
We are going to have a brief progress15
report given by Debra and Susan.  However, our16
recommendations that will be presented to date for17
voting will be given by Mike DelCasino on behalf of18
the consumer complaints group.19
We have met with several FCC staff members20
over the course of six months.  Louis Sigalos and his21
staff have met with many of our members and gave us a22
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full presentation, which Debra will speak in detail1
about in a few moments.2
We have also met with various groups of3
the Electronics Express and section 508 compliance4
unit, also the webmaster, which Susan Mazrui will give5
you further details about that in her report.6
However, in some of our discussions, we7
also determined that we did not have the expertise in8
our group on the whole to address Indian and tribal9
issues.  So we presented to Vernon James whether he10
would be interested in heading up another subworking11
group.  He is not here today.  And we have not heard12
from him to confirm that.  But that is something under13
discussion.14
So at this moment, I would like to turn15
over the mike to Debra, who will give a report on our16
further activities for this year.17
MEMBER BERLYN:  Thanks, Joy.  Let me just18
start out by thanking you, Joy, for the outstanding19
work you do in managing a group that has such a broad20
set of issues to deal with.  Our subworking group --21
I guess that's what we call ourselves -- addresses22
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consumer outreach and education.  And after our first1
meeting, we recognize the need to find out what the2
FCC was already doing in terms of outreach and3
education.4
So, as Joy mentioned, we had a meeting in5
early August with the Division of Consumer Outreach6
that is headed by Louis Sigalos.  He brought some of7
his staff together with us.  Joy has I believe8
distributed a full report on our meeting with all the9
discussion points.10
One thing that our subgroup has recognized11
is that the FCC has come excellent information.  In12
fact, if you go out to the lobby area, you will notice13
that there are some wonderful fact sheets there with14
all sorts of information for consumers about wireless15
phone service, slamming, et cetera.16
The question I think that our group needs17
to address is how can we get that good information18
into the hands of all consumers, particularly19
consumers who are in areas where they may not have20
easily accessible internet Web site service, where21
they can download this information.22
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So there are several issues:  one, how do1
we let consumers know this information is out there;2
and then how do we make sure that we get this3
information in the hands of all consumers.4
In our discussion, one of the issues that5
was brought up by the Consumer Outreach Division of6
the FCC was a limitation in funding resources for them7
to accomplish all of the tasks that we would ideally8
like them to and they themselves want to.  So that is9
always in the back of our minds, what can we do with10
limited resources that the FCC has.11
As you will see, we talked about some12
efforts they have made to get on the road, again13
limited by funding resources, but they have gone to14
schools in the areas.  They have gone to do a15
roundtable at the Public Utility Commission in16
Pennsylvania.  They worked with seniors at a17
discussion in, I believe it was, Las Vegas, Nevada.18
So they have themselves tried to do some19
outreach.  And we support them and want to work with20
them in figuring out ways in which they can do more of21
that.22
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Our group today discussed kind of the1
second step to that, which is what are the best means2
for getting information out there.  We discussed ways3
in which we can perhaps work with the FCC to build a4
database that they are working on of all the contacts5
that they have, where they could immediately send6
information over the internet to a set of contacts. 7
And then those contacts would then distribute the8
information for them.9
And some of those groups we want them to10
include are libraries and community centers as well as11
perhaps other organizations.  We will be working with12
them in the future to help them build that database.13
The other thing we want to try and do is14
to get together with the Office of Media Relations and15
the Outreach Division and talk about ways in which16
this information could be placed in community17
newspapers.  Perhaps we discuss a monthly column or a18
bimonthly column that would address some key outreach19
issues for consumers, education issues for consumers.20
So, with that in mind, what we are going21
to work toward for perhaps our March meeting is a22
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plan, working closely with the Outreach Division and1
the Office of Media Relations to work on a plan, for2
doing some of these consumer outreach activities.3
Thank you.4
MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI:  First of all, I5
would like to say that I am one of the co-chairs of6
the modernizing the FCC working group.  Claude Stout7
and David Poehlman are also working on this as8
co-chairs.  I invite them to interrupt and correct me9
at any time.10
What we tried to do is look at some of the11
efforts the agency has done to go along with the12
modernizing efforts that have been taking place over13
a lot of different federal agencies.  In particular,14
we looked at Web access and information, how is that15
being shared with those outside the Beltway, and16
efforts along the lines of training.17
We recently had a meeting with the18
webmaster, the manager for EDOCS, and the manager for19
the electronic filing system.  That was very20
productive.21
Prior to the meeting, we had an22
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opportunity with a lot of input from members of the1
working group.  Larry Goldberg, for example, and David2
Poehlman, and Claude Stout were some of the ones who3
did a quick overview of the accessibility of the Web4
site.  And there were areas of concern.5
There were areas that were done very well,6
and that's one of the things we said things are great7
and commendable, efforts that have been done to8
clearly follow 508 guidelines.  And there are areas,9
let's say, that have opportunities for growth.10
So the inconsistency was one of the things11
that was of concern.  We found that our initial12
thoughts about improving the access on the Web site,13
both usability and accessibility, were really14
consistent with what the Department of Justice was15
making recommendations on across the board for all16
agencies.17
So what we are in the process right now of18
doing is we have drafted some initial recommendations19
from the working group.  We have just gotten comments20
back.  We should have that circulated out to the21
larger subcommittee and then the full committee before22
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the next meeting and would like to be on the agenda1
for the next meeting to talk about those2
recommendations.3
You will all have an opportunity to4
comment, make improvements, and provide feedback on5
this effort prior to the meeting as well as during the6
next meeting if we are put on the agenda as requested.7
Does anybody have questions?8
(No response.)9
MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI:  Okay.10
MEMBER RAGSDALE:  Mike?11
MEMBER DelCASINO:  Good afternoon.  I am12
Mike DelCasino.  I am happy to be able to present the13
recommendation from the complaints subworking group of14
our working group.15
I want to do a couple of things before I16
actually launch into that.  First is I want to thank17
the group members for their literally tireless18
efforts.19
What you have in front of you is a20
one-page recommendation, but I assure you that we had21
four or five meetings, -- I can't remember exactly how22
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many -- each of which were two and a half or so hours1
in length.2
So we had a tremendous amount of3
discussions and sharing of thoughts and ideas.  I want4
to thank and commend our working group members for5
that.6
The second thing I would like to do is I7
would like to thank two folks from the commission's8
CGB staff, Martha Contee and Cynthia Brown, who also9
participated in most of the meetings that this working10
group had.11
I think of particular note in that regard,12
the recommendation that we have, as we will talk about13
in a minute, has got a fairly narrow focus, but our14
discussions over all those meetings were very broad15
and covered lots of areas of the complaint process.16
Interestingly, as a result of some of that17
conversation, Martha and Cynthia actually took some18
things back and have already made some minor19
modifications and changes to the complaint process and20
to the commission's Web site.  So that kind of21
demonstrates that just discussing these things tends22
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to lead to some improvements.1
The third thing I guess I would like to2
say is that while this particular recommendation has3
a few new thoughts and suggestions, I think it is4
largely an expansion of a lot of the very good work5
that the commission has already begun to do, a lot of6
which you heard about today, some of which Dane7
mentioned this afternoon that we weren't even aware8
of.  So the point here is really that we think we have9
a couple of suggestions that will enhance a lot of the10
work that the commission is already currently doing.11
The last point I think I want to make --12
and then we can talk about the recommendation itself13
-- is to say that this particular group's work I think14
is very far from done.  We surfaced a lot of things in15
our discussions.16
As a result of that discussion, we seemed17
to focus around outreach and settled on bringing18
before you today this particular recommendation.  But19
I think you will see as we move forward that this20
complaint working group will be back to you with some21
additional recommendations regarding complaints.22
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You have all seen the recommendation. 1
It's not quite a page long.  I don't know as there is2
much point in reading through it.  Let me just comment3
that it is outreach-focused.4
Our recommendation here to the commission5
is to expand and elaborate on some of the activities6
that they already have in place.  We request that they7
use the resources that are available to them that they8
are currently funding through the universal service9
fund to enhance their outreach efforts regarding a10
consumer complaint and also to think about or test the11
possibility of using some of the newer technologies to12
do that.  And they are kind of outlined here.13
So utilize libraries, utilize14
universities, utilize the school systems, utilize15
conference calls.  They do town meetings, for example.16
If it's possible to arrange to have that town meeting17
webcast, you could expand the scope of the population18
that gets to hear that message; similarly, with19
something as simple as arranging for a conference call20
at a meeting where some subgroup of people can dial21
into the meeting and hear the message.  Our group22
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thinks that that would enable the outreach to get to1
a larger portion of the population.2
I guess let me leave it at that and ask if3
anybody has any particular questions or ask the other4
working group members if I left anything out and they5
want to add to it, please do that.6
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Do we have any7
comments or questions for Mike?8
(No response.)9
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  You just covered it10
all, Mike.  They're just stunned.  I can't believe11
this group doesn't have a question.  Oh, we did with12
David.13
Thank you, David, for saving us.14
MEMBER DelCASINO:  Are you sure you want15
to thank him?16
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Well, we'll wait.17
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  Hello.  This is David18
Poehlman with the American Council of the Blind.19
Since nobody else volunteered to come20
forward, I thought I would see if I could cobble21
something together to say or to ask.22
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I have actually been looking at this1
recommendation and looked at it several times in2
e-mail and in Braille here.  I am trying to find out3
if we have left anything out in the way of4
communications.  I am not sure that we have, but I am5
wondering if we take a look at the suggested modes of6
delivery, if there isn't something that we might want7
to add.8
I think at one point during our group's9
discussions, I had suggested adding something like10
"and others" or something like that to this list. 11
It's a great list, but I don't know if we left12
anything out.  So I just thought I would mention that.13
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  So you would just say14
that we would be leaving this open for other avenues15
of consumer outreach?16
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  Yes.  I would say "and17
others" or something like that.18
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  Do we have any19
other comments or discussions?  Okay, Larry.20
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  I'm interested in the21
use of all of these educational institutions as22
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vehicles for outreach and complaints, particularly1
public schools.2
I know in public broadcasting, we make a3
huge effort to create materials for use in schools. 4
And I don't know if the FCC actually has, like many5
sites, the kids' site or the kids' zone for FCC6
issues.7
It might sound dry, but, in fact, the8
technologies are fascinating to kids and whether the9
creation of materials and, therefore, matching class10
projects to have the class together file complaints or11
communicate with the FCC.12
It's sort of touched on in the first13
bullet point.  I don't know if the FCC has done that14
yet or not.15
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  They do.  Scott is16
telling me that they do.  Scott, do you want to talk17
to him about it?18
MR. MARSHALL:  Hi, Larry.  Scott Marshall.19
We do have a parents' page that is up and20
running at the moment.  I believe that we also have a21
kids' page that is under development.22
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CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  Do we have any1
other questions or comments?2
(No response.)3
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  Then we'll4
vote it.  We'll take a vote on whether or not to5
recommend to the commission the suggestions, the6
recommendations made by the subgroup of the sub of the7
group.  Long titled group here.  The consumer group. 8
Let's just make it a short title.9
Anyway, may I see a show of hands of10
people who would like to make this recommendation to11
the commission?12
(Whereupon, there was a show of hands.)13
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Well, once again, you14
all are breaking records today.  That was a unanimous15
vote.  Thank you very much.  So we shall make that16
recommendation to the commission, as you suggested. 17
Thank you all very much.  Joy, group, thank you.  We18
really appreciate that.19
Then moving right along here, we will go20
to Eugene Seagriff with the ancillary services working21
group.22
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MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  Thank you, Shirley, and1
thank you all for allowing us some time on the agenda2
today.3
ANCILLARY SERVICES WORKING GROUP4
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  Our working group5
consists of Karen Kirsch, Diane Burstein, Vernon6
James, Byron St. Clair, Dave Poehlman, Mike Duke,7
Larry Goldberg, and myself.8
We were studying if there were any issues9
related to the ancillary services in the current10
proceedings that the FCC is considering.  We held a11
number of conference calls and plenty of e-mail12
traffic to discuss these issues.13
With Scott's help, we were able to have14
briefings by FCC experts in several areas to inform15
our discussions.  For example, Steve Broeckaert16
briefed us on plug and play.  Rick Chessen briefed us17
on DTV.  And Ed DeLaHunt briefed us on digital radios.18
So those were the three areas that we were looking at.19
We determined that there were not any20
issues related to ancillary services in these areas21
that CAC could address in the form of recommendations22
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to the commission.  That was our opinion.1
However, we felt there is a much wider2
group here available to us, and we didn't want to take3
these things off the table entirely without at least4
flagging them for you and letting you know what a5
couple of the things that we found were.6
First is related to DTV.  In DTV, as in7
analog TV, there are cable must-carry requirements for8
program-related material.  There are a few things that9
are specifically called out as examples of10
program-related material, but one of them that is not11
included is material currently contained in the analog12
SAP that may be considered program-related.13
So the only debate we were having is,14
well, gee, should that stuff have been specifically15
called out as part of the program-related material or16
not?17
We didn't feel strongly that this should18
be a recommendation, but we wanted to get some19
feedback from the wider group before we shelved it.20
Does anyone have any comments or ideas on21
that issue?22
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MEMBER SNOOP:  This is Don Snoop.  Are you1
talking specifically on the SAP issue between analog2
and digital?3
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  Yes.  As Diane can4
explain much more eloquently than I can, there's not5
really going to be SAP per se on DTV, but the material6
that is currently in the analog SAP if it's considered7
program-related, should that be specifically called8
out in the must-carry portion of DTV?9
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  You're losing me with10
all of these initials.  I am assuming DTV is digital11
television.  What is SAP?  Don't tell me it's me.12
 MEMBER SNOOP:  Secondary program so that13
you can actually --14
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  What is it?15
MEMBER SNOOP:  Secondary audial program so16
that you can actually push a button on your TV set and17
you can get a second audio.  Sometimes it will be in18
Spanish.  Sometimes it will be --19
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  Thank you very20
much.21
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  Sometimes it's used for22
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a description for the blind as well.1
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  David?2
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  Yes.  David Poehlman3
with the American Council of the Blind.4
The reason why we are sort of putting this5
out on the table, this particular one, is because we6
understand that there is some discussion already7
underway concerning this and we didn't know if we8
should put it forward as a recommendation.9
We would like to hear from you all about10
this and some of the other things that we had.11
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  Okay.  I'll take that as12
it's not a big deal to anybody.  We didn't think so,13
but we wanted to make sure.  It was really a semantic14
thing about whether we should call this particular15
item out in the must-carry or not.16
Program-related materials are called out17
in must-carry.  And we kind of thought that was18
sufficient, but we wanted to get a wider input before19
we shelved it.20
A second issue is related to plug and21
play.  Plug and play is about enabling cable-ready22
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digital television sets essentially.  Part of the plug1
and play report and order mention that there would,2
could, and should be consumer disclosures about what3
people should expect to happen and how it is supposed4
to work.5
Right now those are just pretty much vague6
and have to be hashed out.  We didn't feel like the7
CAC should get involved in hashing that out or spell8
out what we felt should be in there, but we wanted to9
get an opinion from the wider group on that issue as10
well.11
Should we take a more active role in12
suggesting how the disclosure issue should play out?13
MEMBER SNOOP:  I have an opinion.  Plug14
and play, right now there's a number of things.  It's15
like a two-edged sword.16
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Donald Snoop.17
MEMBER SNOOP:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Yes.18
In other words, right now the cable19
industry, the CEA, the consumer communications20
electronics, have come to an agreement to have all of21
these cable-ready TV sets, have it so the customer can22
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just plug in a cable and have it work for the most1
part if you're a cable TV customer.  It does exclude2
direct TV.  It does exclude other technologies.  And3
that has already been bantered about a number of times4
by the FCC.5
Is it negative?  No.  From a consumer6
perspective, should we be addressing it?  We probably7
should keep it on our radar screen only because of the8
fact that there are a number of consumers a couple of9
years down the road when this becomes a reality.10
You may walk in and buy a TV set, be it11
DirecTV or Dish subscriber network or another12
technology, thinking that it is going to work and find13
out it actually doesn't.  So it may be something you14
might want to keep on the radar screen.15
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  We're not saying that in16
the future, as circumstances change, we wouldn't17
revisit an issue or take further action.18
MEMBER SNOOP:  Right.19
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  What we said is at this20
time, we didn't feel there were any concrete21
recommendations we could make.22
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MEMBER SNOOP:  Okay.1
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Shirley Rooker.2
Is it possible that this technology at3
some point will if you have Dish or DirecTV be4
available?I don't know that much about the technology.5
MEMBER SNOOP:  It's hard to say at this6
point because the press releases, almost on a weekly7
basis, press releases are going back and forth as to8
what is happening, what the objections are, and things9
of that nature.  So it's playing itself out.10
I'm sure at some point there will be11
because it's a numbers game.  There are millions of12
people with DirecTV and Dish Network along with cable13
customers.  So at some point I think they are going to14
have to.  I don't think it's something that we have to15
engineer, but I think from a consumer standpoint, I16
think we need to keep it on the radar screen.17
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  It seems to me like18
what you are saying is there is a consumer education19
aspect attached to this --20
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  Oh, absolutely.21
MEMBER SNOOP:  -- educating the consumers22
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that the TV that they think they are going to go plug1
in and play may not.2
MEMBER SNOOP:  Right.3
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  The plug and play order4
from the FCC includes a provision that disclosures5
must be made so that customers are not mislead or6
misunderstood.  Our discussion was, should we insert7
our committee into that proceeding or not?8
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  I see.9
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  And our feeling at the10
time was not.11
Last but not least, -- and I know I am the12
only thing between us and the end of the day -- is13
digital radio.  It seems that digital radio is still14
in its formative stages.  It's not fully codified and15
defined.16
It seems that multiple data streams will17
be possible, but it's not clear that there are any18
plans to include things like radio reading services or19
other services in those data streams.20
We weren't sure even if the FCC had a21
mechanism for encouraging such usage of the bandwidth22
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or not and whether it was going to really go one way1
or the other in the future.  Anyway, the crystal ball2
wasn't working so well.3
We felt that we would table it, but we4
wanted to also bring that to your attention beforehand5
as well.6
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  Do we have any7
comments or questions?  Claude?8
MEMBER STOUT:  Yes.  I just wanted to drop9
a thought off to your group.  I wanted to bring up the10
digital radio, to keep that in mind.  If there is any11
possibility that we could enjoy captioned radio while12
we are driving in the car or while we are using a13
global positioning system, we could see the caption,14
just keep that in mind.  We would like to see that15
happen.16
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.17
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  We'll keep that in mind.18
I'm not sure if that's an area the FCC can really deal19
with either.20
MEMBER STOUT:  I think people in Japan are21
using captioned radio technology if I understand22
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correctly, but maybe that's something that could be1
investigated and looked into.2
MEMBER GOLDBERG:  I think that Eugene's3
point is we might not be able to encourage that4
someone start such a service, but we will want to keep5
our eye on the technology so it can be supported. 6
There is nothing about the technology that would7
prevent anyone from providing captioned audio of any8
sort.  And that's where we will keep our eye on it9
because I don't know that any of us are yet fully10
informed about the capabilities and limitations of11
digital radio.12
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  Right.  And that is13
still forming.  But since there should or could be14
multiple data streams in a digital world, anything can15
be put in that data stream theoretically.16
So, Claude, to your point, there are17
really two sides to that problem.  One is the ability18
of the radios themselves to play and decode the19
captions, if you will, which I imagine is probably20
possible because all the satellites, radio systems21
show you the artist and title and that kind of thing.22
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However, the other side of the coin is1
getting the content captioned.  That's a content2
creation issue, which is a very difficult challenge to3
solve.4
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  David?5
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  I just wanted to add to6
Eugene's excellent report -- David Poehlman again with7
the American Council of the Blind -- that during our8
call on digital radio, some of these issues were9
raised.10
The thing that we are talking about here11
basically, though, is that FCC right now is basically12
concerned with helping to get digital radio up and13
running.  They did that by licensing a company I14
understand to provide the licensing and carrier15
services and that sort of thing.  It's one company16
that is doing it for all the facilities out there. 17
And now they're involved.18
They have been involved in the testing and19
the rollout and that sort of thing of that kind of20
thing.  And then they're also involved with making21
sure that transmitters and so forth are in compliance22
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with FCC regulations.1
There is a lot of interesting stuff,2
actually, in digital radio.  For example, one thing3
that you will want to know when you go out to buy your4
digital radio set in a few years, don't be afraid to5
go out and buy one because let's say that there are 106
or 15 stations in your market and only 2 of them are7
digital.That's okay.You're not going to lose the other8
11 or 12 or whatever because you will still be able to9
pick up the analog signal from your digital set.10
So I would encourage you in a few years11
when you start seeing them show up in the stores and12
they are cheap enough to buy, go out and grab one. 13
It's going to be very exciting.14
With regarding to captioned radio,15
something I have been pushing for for a while, I asked16
about this and some other things we asked about, the17
radio sets themselves, you know, what they're going to18
look like, what their interfaces are going to be.  And19
it's really too early for some of this information to20
be available.21
That was also the sense that I got about22
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captioned radio, not impossible.  Somewhere down the1
line, it may happen, but it's just too early to tell.2
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Thank you, David.  I3
really did not know that you could pick up analog on4
a digital radio.  That's good information.5
MEMBER POEHLMAN:  There aren't many of6
them out there yet, but when there are.7
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  When there are.8
MEMBER SEAGRIFF:  That's the conclusion of9
my report.  I would like to thank all the working10
group members for their help and support and11
participation.  I feel my role is just to keep all of12
these bright and active people engaged and to take a13
lot of notes.  So thank you all for your work.14
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Keep them working. 15
Thank you very much, Eugene.  I really appreciate it.16
I think we have looked at our working17
groups.  We have come up with some very excellent18
things today.  Congratulations to all of you for your19
hard work.20
I also wanted to put a question to you. 21
Do you think that we're addressing all of the issues22
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that are of concern to you?  Do you feel that we need1
other working groups?  That's something you don't2
necessarily have to answer today, but I would like for3
you to think about it because there are so many things4
that concern us that we want to make sure that we are5
being inclusive with everyone.6
We do have the working group that Vernon7
James heads up that we hopefully will get something8
from.  Am I correct, Scott?9
MR. MARSHALL:  Scott Marshall.10
He had expressed an interest in the11
possibility of a rural issues, Native American group. 12
I have not heard back from him about that.  So I don't13
know what the status is currently.  So that may be14
coming.  If I do get something, I will send it out on15
the list to ascertain if anybody is interested in16
pursuing that.17
It might very well fit with the18
commission's rural initiative that Dane mentioned19
earlier this afternoon.20
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Okay.  Then I would21
ask of you, as I said, to think about what we're22
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discussing and if you feel that there are gaps and1
things that we need to bring up.2
COMMENTS FROM THE PUBLIC;3
WRAP-UP; FUTURE MEETINGS4
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I don't have any5
other items of business except for our public, opening6
for the public.  Scott, do you have other information?7
MR. MARSHALL:  Except to ask if you8
haven't signed the registration form, it should be in9
the room here.  Please do so or at least see me. 10
Especially if you haven't spoken at the meeting, I11
don't know that you're here.12
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  He does not look at13
your hand waving.  Right?14
Okay.  Well, Debra?15
MEMBER BERLYN:  Yes.  I just wanted to16
make a general comment -- this is Debbie Berlyn --17
before we go to the public comments.  I found this18
format very helpful.  I would like to encourage Scott19
and you, Shirley, to include an opportunity for us to20
deliver reports and work together, perhaps not at the21
length we did today but at our next meetings.22
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CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Yes.  Thank you. 1
Yes.  We agree with you.  We feel it's very2
productive.  It's very productive because you all as3
working groups have done your job.  So it wouldn't4
have been otherwise.  We would have been sitting here5
looking at each other going, "What do we talk about6
now?"  So thank goodness for you working, industrious7
people.8
It's my pleasure to open the discussion to9
the public members who are attending here today and to10
invite you for your comments, questions, or concerns. 11
Do we have anyone who wants to address any issues to12
the committee?13
(No response.)14
CHAIRPERSON ROOKER:  Well, then if not,15
we're going to end early for a change.  I would like16
to thank all of you for making it such a wonderful17
meeting, look forward to seeing you in March, and also18
to wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving and happy19
holiday.  So, anyway, thank you very much.20
(Whereupon, at 3:25 p.m., the foregoing21
matter was adjourned.)22