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From: "Russ Smith" <russ@moon.jic.com>
To: <us-list@ntiant1.ntia.doc.gov>
Subject: RE: Automated .US Registration Site
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 20:00:05 -0400
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In reality, these rules are not always followed and ISI does not have
resources to verify all the stuff.  Note that Washington, DC is not
delegated so domains like consumer.washington.dc.us (which I registered) are
free since they are registered via ISI.  You can use the public DNS to do
the DNS (soa.granitecanyon.com) and you could use free redirection services
like ml.org to point it to a free web page service like xoom or geocities.
The response wouldn't be great and there would be outages but it would be
totally free.  If you spent something like a $50 setup and $20/month you
could run a site from a hosting service which would be sufficient for
business or individual wanting a good response.

3 of my domains were free consumer.washington.dc.us (via ISI),
alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us (via delegated ISP), and
times-square.new-york.ny.us (delegated ISP).  santa.north-pole.ak.us cost me
$40 setup and $30/year.  However, I am the only domain name in the North
Pole, Alaska domain so I can't really complain about the price above the
rules.  The web site of the ISP clearly stated the price on their site.  In
another case for atlantic-city.nj.us the ISP sent me a bill of about
$30-$40/yr only after I registered the domain (it took several weeks for
them to respond at all) so I cancelled it and I got atlantic-city.org via
Internic.  Even though the alcatraz domain was free I also registered
sanfran.net because the domain is so hard to type without making an error.

One thing I would consider is bidding out the name.city.state.us space with
the condition that free (or low cost) domains are provided to individuals.
The service could set up a robust DNS and possibly offer e-mail.  A
procurement could be done to solicit proposals to do this where the Postal
Service could compete.  A major factor would be the "deal" given to
consumers while the company could offer other premium services to those that
want to spend more.  Many web hosting services have this business model
(such as www.register.com) but the user must pay the $70 Internic fee.  I
also think there should be a reduced priced TLD (such as .nom) where
individuals could register for something like $10-$15/year but that is
another issue.

Russ smith
http://consumer.net
http://domainia.org

>The Overview clearly states that any charge should cover only reasonable
expenses and and gives the expectation that charges should be minimal
(http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/usdnr/usdom-overview.html#Cost).  I read that
as
suggesting that $10/year is not unreasonable.  I also recall an ISI
representative at the NTIA meeting saying that there had been service
providers that had been removed for gouging on registrations.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to think that a person
providing
free .us domain name service is bound to be different from a person charging
for it, and you prefer the free provider "type."  But isn't it just as
likely
that that type would be willing to provide the service still as a 'labor of
love' if they could recoup some of the necessary expenses?  I suppose it's
possible that a home pc and dial-up connection is sufficient, but if I could
get a new terminal and maybe a dedicated line out of it, I might consider it
myself.  8-)

Just wondering,
Charlie Franz
Not presuming to speak for NTIA but happily employed there as a policy
analyst.

.
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Subject: Re: Automated .US Registration Site
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Russ Smith a =E9crit:

> 3 of my domains were free consumer.washington.dc.us (via ISI),
> alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us (via delegated ISP), and
> times-square.new-york.ny.us (delegated ISP).

<snip>

> In
> another case for atlantic-city.nj.us

Alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us and atlantic-city.nj.us are
geographical location subdomains, as the .US domain space is defined
in RFC 1480, and as such should only be delegated to a network that
will sub-allocate domain names within them. You only got these
domains because the delegator - ISI or someone else - is sloppy and
indifferent, just like Jon Postel was, and isn't delegating domains
in .US according to the rules.
.
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From: "Russ Smith" <russ@moon.jic.com>
To: "dot-US list" <us-list@ntiant1.ntia.doc.gov>
Subject: RE: Automated .US Registration Site
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 21:36:27 -0400
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Third level domains such as san-francisco..ca.us and atlantic-city.nj.us =
are
the domains that are be delegated to networks that will subdeligate domai=
n
names (see page 25 of the RFC).  That is what happened.  Both were delega=
ted
to ISP's that provided me with domain names such as
alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us.  For the Atlantic City domain I asked for
boardwalk... or beach... when they told me about the fee.  Maybe you coul=
d
argue that Alcatraz should be a locality but that is not the way the rule=
s
are written now.  I read through all the rules and contacted ISI before I
did any of this.

I checked first to see if I had to actually be in a locality (or have som=
e
presence) to get a domain in a specific locality.  I could not find it
addressed in the RFC or the ISI web site so I called them and they told m=
e I
did not (much to my surprise).  So I registered them.  I set up the Alcat=
raz
domain with Alcatraz information but there is nothing that requires me to=
 do
so.  actually, if someone wanted a domain like
xxxx.alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us I would set it up for them free as it
would only take a minute but I never even considered that anyone would wa=
nt
such a beast for a domain name.  The only good thing about the Alcatraz
domain is that it shows up well in the search engines.  I set up the Sant=
a
domain with an e-mail autoresponder around Christmas.  I point the consum=
er
site to Consumer.net.  I haven't set up the times-square domain.

Russ Smith
http://consumer.net
http://domainia.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Sondow [mailto:msondow@iciiu.org]
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 1999 8:51 PM
To: russ@moon.jic.com; dot-US list
Subject: Re: Automated .US Registration Site

Russ Smith a =E9crit:

> 3 of my domains were free consumer.washington.dc.us (via ISI),
> alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us (via delegated ISP), and
> times-square.new-york.ny.us (delegated ISP).

<snip>

> In
> another case for atlantic-city.nj.us

Alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us and atlantic-city.nj.us are
geographical location subdomains, as the .US domain space is defined
in RFC 1480, and as such should only be delegated to a network that
will sub-allocate domain names within them. You only got these
domains because the delegator - ISI or someone else - is sloppy and
indifferent, just like Jon Postel was, and isn't delegating domains
in .US according to the rules.

.
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uss Smith a =E9crit:
>=20
> For the Atlantic City domain I asked for
> boardwalk... or beach... when they told me about the fee.  Maybe you co=
uld
> argue that Alcatraz should be a locality but that is not the way the ru=
les
> are written now.

Yes, I believe it is. All geograp[hical designations are network
subdomains, according to the basic definition of .US sub-domain
allocation. No one is supposed to get a geographical name as a
private domain name.

> I read through all the rules and contacted ISI before I
> did any of this.

ISI hasn't been administering .us properly, which is why it's got to
be reorganized. Postel himself didn't seem to want anything to do
with it, and gave the delegations to the first comer. After Postel,
it's been even worse.

> I checked first to see if I had to actually be in a locality (or have s=
ome
> presence) to get a domain in a specific locality.  I could not find it
> addressed in the RFC or the ISI web site so I called them and they told=
 me I
> did not (much to my surprise).

Postel apparently decided that you didn't have to have an address in
the locality to register within it. But you still weren't supposed
to get the name of the locality as a private delegation.

> actually, if someone wanted a domain like
> xxxx.alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us I would set it up for them free as it
> would only take a minute but I never even considered that anyone would =
want
> such a beast for a domain name.

Why not? It's a place, isn't it? And as I recall, at least in the
'seventies, there was some sort of reconversion of the old prison
underway. There's all the reason in the world to expect that someday
someone will want a domain name on Alcatraz island.

The atlantic-city.nj.us delegation is much more serious. That's a
total abrogation of .us policy to delegate that for other than
network use by the locality. How can you as an individual have a
city delegation, unless you're doing DNS for the residents? This is
just another hash-up caused by the confused and indifferent attitude
of Postel and ISI.
.
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Reply-To: <domainiac@home.com>
From: "domainiac" <domainiac@home.com>
To: "US reorg. list" <us-list@ntiant1.ntia.doc.gov>
Subject: RE: Automated .US Registration Site
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:36:01 -0400
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People just don't want these long names.  I think they would rather have new
TLD's rather than the long names.  I heard talks of putting luxury condos on
the Island.

atlamtic-city.nj.us is delegated to an ISP in NJ who issues domain.  I was
trying to register beach.atlantic-city.nj.us.

Russ Smith

>Why not? It's a place, isn't it? And as I recall, at least in the
'seventies, there was some sort of reconversion of the old prison
underway. There's all the reason in the world to expect that someday
someone will want a domain name on Alcatraz island.

>The atlantic-city.nj.us delegation is much more serious. That's a
total abrogation of .us policy to delegate that for other than
network use by the locality. How can you as an individual have a
city delegation, unless you're doing DNS for the residents? This is
just another hash-up caused by the confused and indifferent attitude
of Postel and ISI.

.