From - Tue May 19 16:30:31 1998
Message-Id: <00001B05@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:59:44 -0500
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Re: Who owns 12.0.0.0 ? AT&T or ARIN ? -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:00:19 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Re: Who owns 12.0.0.0 ? AT&T or ARIN ? -Forwarded
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Received: from localhost (jlewis@localhost)
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     Sat, 16 May 1998 00:17:29 -0400
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:17:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jon Lewis <jlewis@inorganic5.fdt.net>
X-Sender: jlewis@tarkin.fdt.net
Reply-To: Jon Lewis <jlewis@inorganic5.fdt.net>
To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
cc: "'arin-council@arin.net'" <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'ARIN list'" <naipr@arin.net>,
        "'Antitrust List'" <antitrust@essential.org>,
        "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" <antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: Re: Who owns 12.0.0.0 ? AT&T or ARIN ?
In-Reply-To: <01BD7F14.B3AA5540@webster.unir.net>
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On Thu, 14 May 1998, Jim Fleming wrote:

> According to the following, AT&T is now allocating IPv4 addresses
> in the 12.0.0.0 range and companies are advertising them on other
> networks.

This happens all the time when a company multihomes but doesn't have its
own CIDR block.

> As shown below[1] apparently ARIN maintains the ownership records
> of these blocks.

These "ownership records" look suspiciously like swipped networks.  Last I
checked, there's no charge for swipping space...and it's highly
encouraged.

> Why would a company pay ARIN if they can go to AT&T to obtain
> address space ?

Hmm...now you're suggesting ARIN go into the NSP business?  Maybe ARIN can
make money on the side selling T1's too.  "Would you like T1's with your
CIDR block?"

> Why does AT&T have a /8 to allocate in this manner ?
> How do other companies get /8s ?

You get into the game very early before all the rules have been fleshed
out.

> [1] $ whois -h whois.arin.net 12.0.0.0
> Aborting search 256 records found .....
> 360 Group (NETBLK-360GROUP-1864)360GROUP-1864         12.7.18.64 - =
12.7.18.127
> AFL/ Air Line Pilots Association (NETBLK-AIRLINEPILOTS-640) AIRLINEPILOTS=
-640
>                                    12.4.64.0 - =
12.4.64.255

This does demonstrate another problem caused by the 256 record truncation
does by ARIN and Internic.  How do I find the whois data at rs.arin.net
for the 12/8 entry?  It didn't show up in the above querry.  It
would be very nice if when you did a whois
NETBLK-360GROUP-1864@rs.arin.net, instead of just telling you:

   Netname: 360GROUP-1864
   Netblock: 12.7.18.64 - 12.7.18.127

it also told you the netnames of all parent blocks.

------------------------------------------------------------------
 Jon Lewis <jlewis@fdt.net>  |  http://noagent.com/?jl1 for cheap=20
 Network Administrator       |  life insurance over the net.
 Florida Digital Turnpike    | =20
______http://inorganic5.fdt.net/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key____

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From - Tue May 19 16:30:32 1998
Message-Id: <00001B07@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:59:47 -0500
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Is APNIC Only One of Three ? -Forwarded
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:00:23 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Is APNIC Only One of Three ? -Forwarded
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To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>,
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        "'ARIN list'" <naipr@arin.net>
From: pindar@HK.Super.NET (Pindar Wong)
Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Is APNIC Only One of Three ?
Cc: "'Adam Todd'" <at@ah.net>, "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
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At 10:10 AM 5/16/98 -0500, Jim Fleming wrote:
>
>In the ad for a new "director general" the APNIC
>claims to be one of only *three* organizations in
>the world that coordinates resource allocation.
>
>Is that true ?

[ snip ]

>It is one of only 3 organisations who perform these functions world-wide."=

[ snip ]

Jim,

I believe that the three organisations are refering to APNIC, ARIN and =
RIPE.

Could be four with AFRINIC ...

Regards,

Pindar

PS:

Apologies for not pruning the cc-list, which is getting a tad long.

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From - Tue May 19 16:44:02 1998
Message-Id: <00001ADE@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:17:11 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: FW: Think Global and Act Local -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:07:08 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: FW: Think Global and Act Local -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>
Cc: "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: FW: Think Global and Act Local
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:41:17 -0500
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----------
From:     Jim Fleming[SMTP:JimFleming@unety.net]
Sent:     Sunday, May 17, 1998 7:34 PM
To:  'Andy Linton'; 'Adam Todd'
Cc:  APNIC-TALK@apnic.net; asjl@NETLINK.CO.NZ; davidc@apnic.net;=20
ec-satou@kdd.co.jp; intl-wg@nic.ad.jp; ip-wg@nic.ad.jp;=20
kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp; 'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'; mo-abe@kdd.co.jp;=20
sanjib@MOS.COM.NP
Subject:  RE: Think Global and Act Local

On Sunday, May 17, 1998 7:14 PM, Andy=20
Linton[SMTP:Andy.Linton@netlink.co.nz] wrote:
<snip>
@>
@> ...think global and act local...
@
@And the local action you suggest I take is...?
@--
@Mailto:Andy.Linton@netlink.co.nz              Tel: +64 4 916 5312

If you want to help the Internet grow, especially in
New Zealand, I would work with people in that region
to help organize the G6 TLD. Adam Todd in Australia
can probably provide more details.

More specifically, you could work on these delegations...

6:71    NZL     (NEW-ZEALAND)
6:130   NZ      (NEW-ZEALAND)

If you want to get very involved, you could check out
your "neighbor net" situation here:
     http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt

As an example, you could view NZL as seat 6:71
in a large auditorium. You would contact the people
sitting around you. .TK might be easy to find and
also .TUV. Let's say you could locate people backing
those TLDs. Then the three of you become the trustees
for all of the TLDs in between. You might find the people
backing .NOC and then you have a complete neighbor
net because all of the seats are filled from .TK to .NZL.
That becomes your local area to grow.

6:69 TK (TOKELAU)
6:70 NOC
6:71 NZL (NEW-ZEALAND)
6:72 GARAGES
6:73 FLOUR
6:74 FIELD
6:75 TUV (TUVALU)

On the other side of you, between .NZL and .TUV
you may have more work to do. If you find out that
those TLDs (.GARAGES, .FLOUR, .FIELD) are no
longer supported you might want to change the names
and invite new people to join your neighbor net.

G6 only has 256 TLDs to coordinate. By working
together with all of the other people in that G-overnance
region, you keep the thing together. Eventually, you
will run across 6:130 NZ  (NEW-ZEALAND) which
is a little closer to home. Check out the neighbor net
for that seat (6:130) and teach them how it works....

G6 will only be as good as the people there make it...
...have a ball...

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM

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From - Tue May 19 16:44:03 1998
Message-Id: <00001AE0@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:17:12 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: FW: Legislative RED ALERT! -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:07:09 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: FW: Legislative RED ALERT! -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "inet-access@earth.com" <inet-access@earth.com>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: RE: FW: Legislative RED ALERT!
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:09:08 -0500
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On Sunday, May 17, 1998 9:15 PM, J.D. Falk[SMTP:jdfalk@vix.com] wrote:
<snip>
@
@    That's why the Internet industry needs to have a strong and
@    vocal presence on the Hill.  As long as we're hiding behind
@    well-worded posts that our elected representatives would have
@    no idea how to find, we're gonna continue to get shafted.
@

I did not realize that you were hiding. :-)

People in Washington, D.C. have e-mail addresses.
Why not use them ? If you do, they may post your
messages...

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM

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From - Tue May 19 16:44:03 1998
Message-Id: <00001AE2@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:17:14 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: FW: Filtering /19s (WAS: DUAL T's OR MULTIHOME) -Forwarded
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:07:10 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: FW: Filtering /19s (WAS: DUAL T's OR MULTIHOME) -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
id WAA05003; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:26:42 -0500
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'patrick@priori.net'" <patrick@priori.net>
Cc: "'arin-council@arin.net'" <arin-council@arin.net>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'ARIN list'" <naipr@arin.net>
Subject: FW: Filtering /19s (WAS: DUAL T's OR MULTIHOME)
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:21:10 -0500
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Patrick,

Hopefully, there will be a change in the administration
of the IANA Inc. very soon. When that happens you
may have a better chance at getting the address space
that you need.

Jim Fleming

----------
From:     Patrick W. Gilmore[SMTP:patrick@priori.net]
Sent:     Sunday, May 17, 1998 8:57 PM
To:  inet-access@earth.com
Subject:  Re: Filtering /19s (WAS: DUAL T's OR MULTIHOME)

At 05:35 PM 5/17/98 -0500, Jeff Carneal wrote:
>On Sun, 17 May 1998, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
>
>> Avi, you say you aggregate before you send out the announcement.  How =
do
>> you expect your downstream to get any type of real value out of
>> multi-homing with you?  People have told me DIGEX aggregates before
>> announcing.  I'm wondering why anyone would even think of multi-homing =
with
>> DIGEX?
>
>I'm wondering what your rationale is for thinking this is a problem?  =
This
>is absolutely what you'd want if you were connected to DIGEX and wanted
>your routes to slip through the filters of...oh...say sprint?

I'm not suggesting the DIGEX not announce the aggregate.  Priori announces
their full CIDR as the full CIDR, and I'd expect everyone to do the same.
I'm suggesting that if they do not announce the more specific route
originated from your ASN *in addition to* the aggregate (as Priori does),
then multi-homing with DIGEX is rather useless.  Hell, if Digex accepts =
the
more specific from their peers (and a quick check of nitrous shows that
they do - at least from me), then it's possible that NONE of the traffic
will flow down your link to them.  They might pick the more specific route
and send the packets to your other upstream.  Of course, they might hear
your more specific route internally and just aggregate on the way out.  =
But
then only DIGEX and the backbones filtering the more specifics would send
traffic down your DIGEX line.

I find this truly mind-boggling.  DIGEX has been very considerate to us as
a peer, and the engineer with whom I worked (Hank Kilmer formerly of
Sprint) was cluefull, and very nice guy. ;)  I guess things are either in
"transition" and stuff is getting lost in the translation, or something is
really FUBAR'ed over there.

BTW, there is still a problem if everyone filters more specifics.  If
*everyone* filters, then no traffic will flow down your second link.  =
Well,
unless con ARIN into a /19 of your own.

It seems like you just can't win.  Why don't we just give up and all =
single
home until we're big enough to have our own /19.  Oh, and all you people
with small but busy web farms, or people using stuff like Mega-POP, and
most of all, people who are trying - and succeeding - to conserve address
space extremely well - guess what?  You're SOL.  You'll never get to
multi-home.  Unless you can find a couple upstreams who happen to be close
enough to use something like Dave's idea of mutual /19s, you just can't =
get
any real benefit out of multi-homing.  The people who happen to have the
"need" more IP space - whether their business is bigger, more important,
more complicated, more cluefull, more whatever, or whether they just suck
at conservation and can con ARIN (or whomever) into a portable block - get
to multi-home.  And you get to pray your upstream is perfect.

The longer this goes on, the more discouraged I get.  It seems like the =
big
guys just care about squishing anyone's announcement that's under a /19 -
or even if it's larger than a /19 but just part of a larger CIDR.  I see
stuff like UUNET getting a /11 and wonder how the startup type company =
will
ever be able to compete.

>  Jeff Carneal - Sys Admin - Apex Internet         =20

TTFN,
patrick

**************************************************************
Patrick W. Gilmore                      voice: +1-650-482-2840
Director of Operations, CCIE #2983        fax: +1-650-482-2844
PRIORI NETWORKS, INC.                    http://www.priori.net
              "Tomorrow's Performance.... Today"
**************************************************************

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From - Tue May 19 16:44:04 1998
Message-Id: <00001AE4@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:17:16 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Why did Geneva not Deliver the $1,000,000 ? -Forwarded
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:07:11 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Why did Geneva not Deliver the $1,000,000 ? -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Don Heath'" <heath@isoc.org>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET'"
      <DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: Why did Geneva not Deliver the $1,000,000 ?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:33:39 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Don,

Did the following lack of follow-through on the part of
the Geneva, Switzerland organizing committee have
anything to do with the fact that the ISOC has not been
able to deliver CORE the various TLD entries in the
Root Name Servers that were promised ?

@@@@@ http://www.isoc.org/isoc/general/trustees/98-022.shtml

"He pointed out that the original projections from the Geneva
organizing committee for sponsorships of well over $1,000,000, were
well short of their mark; and, accordingly, in January, we were compelled
to take action to consider a change in venue. The amount raised by that =
date
(January) was essentially nil."

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

--=_C89C911B.A3C2AECF--

--=_C89C911B.A2C3AFCE--
From - Tue May 19 16:44:04 1998
Message-Id: <00001AE6@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:17:18 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: FW: NANOG and the USG Ex-Parte Rules -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:07:12 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: FW: NANOG and the USG Ex-Parte Rules -Forwarded
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>
Cc: "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: FW: NANOG and the USG Ex-Parte Rules
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 00:22:25 -0500
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----------
From:     Hank Nussbacher[SMTP:hank@ibm.net.il]
Sent:     Monday, May 18, 1998 1:19 AM
To:  nanog@merit.edu
Subject:  Re: NANOG and the USG Ex-Parte Rules

At 02:04 PM 5/17/98 -0500, Jim Fleming wrote:

NANOG is supposed to be be a "controlled" list - can't the owner remove
posting privs for Jim?   -Hank

>
>NANOG is supported by Merit
>    and Merit is supported by the NSF
>         and the NSF is supported by the U.S. Government
>              and the U.S. Government is supported by U.S. =
taxpayers...
>
>This makes NANOG conversations about Internet Governance
>topics subject to the Ex-Parte rules of the U.S. Government.
>
>I will try to include the right CCs so that the NTIA's web site
>can be up to date.
>
>http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/
>
>
>-
>Jim Fleming
>Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
>IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
>AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM
>
>

--=_CF9B961C.9DFC90F1--

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From - Tue May 19 16:44:05 1998
Message-Id: <00001AEA@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:17:20 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: More on Neighbor Net for .WINE  -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:07:13 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: More on Neighbor Net for .WINE  -Forwarded
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Message-ID: <01BD822D.7CF4D040@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: Annie Renard <Annie.Renard@nic.fr>,
        "'Hank Nussbacher'"
      <hank@ibm.net.il>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Dave Crocker'"
      <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>,
        "'DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET'"
      <DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>,
        "'John Gilmore'" <gnu@toad.com>, "'Don Heath'" <heath@isoc.org>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>
Cc: "'Kent Crispin'" <kent@SONGBIRD.COM>,
        "'Michael Dillon'"
      <michael@memra.com>,
        "'Jon Postel'" <postel@ISI.EDU>, "'Scott Bradner'" <sob@harvard.edu>,
        "tld-wg@ripe.net"
      <tld-wg@ripe.net>,
        "'vinton g. cerf'" <vcerf@MCI.NET>
Subject: RE: More on Neighbor Net for .WINE 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:20:50 -0500
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 3:58 AM, Hank Nussbacher[SMTP:hank@ibm.net.il] =
wrote:
@At 02:41 PM 5/15/98 +0200, Annie Renard wrote:
@>
@> In your previous mail you wrote:
@>
@>    Until we get the entire list filled in, you may have
@>    to expand the diameter of your neighbor net to
@>    include more G:S slots.
@>   =20
@>    http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt
@>   =20
@>    G:S TLD       RP   Web Site
@>    --------------------------------------------------
@>    3:207 FR (FRANCE) <------
@>    3:208 ATHENS
@>    3:209 FLAKE
@>    3:210 DK (DENMARK) <-------
@>    3:211 MLT (MALTA) <-----
@>    3:212 VIDEO
@>    3:213 WINE <---------- jc.praud@ludexpress.com  ?? web site ??
@>    3:214 RAILWAY
@>    3:215 BALLOON
@>    3:216 SVK (SLOVAKIA-(Slovak-Republic)) <-----
@>    3:217 DNK (DENMARK) <-----
@>    3:218 GRC (GREECE) <-----
@>    --------------------------------------------------
@>   =20
@>    The following is a good source of leads for the above
@>    TLDs with the arrows.
@>   =20
@>    http://www.ripe.net/centr/tld.html
@>   =20
@>    For slots where we can not locate people, for example,
@>    3:215 BALLOON, the people around that slot become
@>    the "managers" of the slot and help someone introduce
@>    a new TLD alias for the slot.
@>   =20
@>    For example, David Rogers might want to use that slot
@>    for the .LTD TLD he is working on. Via the neighbor net
@>    approach, people can easily find a slot and add a new
@>    TLD that does not conflict with other TLDs. This is very
@>    much like entering an auditorium with 2,048 seats,
@>    looking around, and asking people..."is that seat taken ?".
@>   =20
@>>>> what is this raving ???
@
@Annie,
@
@Jim is what one science fiction story termed an "agent provocateur" =
(where,
@when the world is totally wired and everyone is on email, along comes a
@person who talks the talk and walks the walk but is a bit demented and =
only
@a few people can see thru his techno-mumbo-jumbo as being garbage).  His
@purpose in life is to drum up controversy and to have people run off in
@directions that are unproductive.  Becky Burr, Ira Magaziner, Wilkenson =
and
@other political people cannot often differentiate people who know what =
they
@are talking about and others who mention IPv8 and who sound knowledgable.
@
@It is our responsibility to make sure that our voice is heard and not =
Jim's.
@He emails more than we do, he is far more persistent than we are, but if =
we
@fail to counter his "ravings" - we will soon see people discussing the
@benefits of stargates and IPv8 galaxies and balloons.
@
@-Hank
@

Hank,

Some people remember that you were a member
of the Blue Ribbon IAHC. Just because you did not
get mentioned in the list below does not mean that
you are not remembered.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Here are the people that I feel are MOST responsible
for the IAHC/CORE plan. I hope that history remembers
what they have contributed in this area.

1. Jon Postel - IANA/USC/ISI
2. Don Heath - ISOC
3. Dave Crocker - IMC
4. Robert Shaw - ITU
5. George Strawn - NSF
6. David Maher - McDonalds
7. John Gilmore - EFF
8. Vinton Cerf - MCI
9. Michael Dillon - Priori
10. Gordon Cook - Cook Report
11. Perry Metzger - NY
12. Bill Manning - USC/ISI
13. Scott Bradner - ISOC
14. Ken Crispin - LBL
15. Rick Wesson - SF/CA

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

I find it interesting to read that you think your voice should
be heard over others. In my opinion, your voice has been
heard and many people have decided, on their own, to listen
to other voices. This is what freedom and choice are all about,
at least in the United States of America. You might want to
keep that in mind over there in Israel.

Also, you might want to note that your recent request to have
me removed from the North American Network Operators (NANOG)
mailing list (partly funded by U.S. Government grants) was not
well received. I am curious why you think that you can sit over
there in Israel and dictate who should and should not be on a public
mailing list in the U.S. Is this the sort of thinking that came from
being on the IAHC ?

Please explain in more detail what you are trying to do...

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM

--=_CE9A971D.9FFE92F3--

--=_CE9A971D.9EFF93F2--
From - Tue May 19 16:44:05 1998
Message-Id: <00001AEE@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:17:22 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Making Your Voice Heard -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:07:14 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Making Your Voice Heard -Forwarded
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Message-ID: <01BD8232.2B705640@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Hank Nussbacher'" <hank@ibm.net.il>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET'"
      <DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'Scott Bradner'" <sob@harvard.edu>,
        "'tld-wg@ripe.net'"
      <tld-wg@ripe.net>
Subject: Making Your Voice Heard
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:54:21 -0500
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Hank,

I do not think that people like myself and others should be
required to advertise your meetings of the the Internet Society
in Israel. I think that it is up to you to join the various open
discussions in these areas and tell people what you are doing.

You and Scott Bradner should be pros at this by now.

I am sorry that people may have missed your meeting below.
Maybe next year you can make it more widely known. That is
your job, not my job.

In the meantime, we can try to make people aware that there
are many activities going on behind the scenes. Just because
myself and others are focused on the U.S. Government's
activities does not mean they are the only events that matter.
If you recall I recently pointed out an ISOC event that just
took place in Washington, D.C. <http://www.dcisoc.org>.
We try to make people aware of everything that is happening.
It helps to know in advance of the meeting. Also, be sensitive
to the fact that people are still free to choose whether they
want to attend your events and listen to you.

Jim Fleming

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D

From: hank@interall.co.il (Hank Nussbacher)
Subject: Internet Society of Israel conference registration now open
Date: 08 Dec 1997 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <66gama$q2i$4@news.ibm.net.il>
Organization: Hank Nussbacher, consulting
Newsgroups: israel.amix,israel.internet,israel.irc,israel.jobs.misc,israel.=
lists.aix-il,israel.news.admin

The Internet Society of Israel is pleased to announce that registration to =
its=20
conference to take place on Jan 7th, 1998 at Kfar Hamacabiah is now open
at http://www.isoc.org.il/conf98

Registration can be done online via our secure server or you can contact
the conference organizers directly.

This years guest speaker will be Scott Bradner who is an area chair in =
the=20
IETF, a member of the IESG and a Trustee of ISOC.  He was also codirector
of the IETF IP next generation effort and is coeditor of "IPng: Internet
Protocol Next Generation" from Addison-Wesley.  He also runs the famous=20
Harvard Benchmark Lab and is a weekly columnist for  Network World.

Hank Nussbacher
ISOC-IL Board member

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM

--=_CE9A971D.99F894F5--

--=_CE9A971D.98F995F4--
From - Tue May 19 16:44:06 1998
Message-Id: <00001AF0@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:17:22 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Why Focus On Cencorship -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:07:15 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Why Focus On Cencorship -Forwarded
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From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Hank Nussbacher'" <hank@ibm.net.il>
Cc: "'Annie Renard'" <Annie.Renard@nic.fr>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET'"
      <DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>
Subject: Why Focus On Cencorship
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 08:15:46 -0500
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Hank,

It seems that you spend a lot of time over there in Israel
trying to censor speech and viewpoints and to control how
people communicate. This was also a hallmark of the
IAHC process where you were a member of the Blue Ribbon
committee.

Recently you tried to tell Annie Renard from France that she
should not listen to me. Have you also given here these views
below ?

Jim Fleming

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

From: hank@interall.co.il (Hank Nussbacher)
Subject: Re: CFV (Call for Votes) : Creation of the israel.francophones =
newsgroup
Date: 18 Dec 1997 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <67bius$prk$1@news.ibm.net.il>
References: <3498F1B2.76DC@hotmail.com> <34993150.DF81644B@orbotech.co.il>
Organization: Hank Nussbacher, consulting
Newsgroups: israel.news.admin

I vote against.  Why not use IRC to talk frenchto each other?  Why does =
there=20
have to be a newsgroup to talk in French?

-Hank

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM

--=_CD99941E.9BFA96F7--

--=_CD99941E.9AFB97F6--
From - Tue May 19 16:44:06 1998
Message-Id: <00001AEC@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:17:25 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: Making Your Voice Heard -Forwarded -Forwarded
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:07:16 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: Making Your Voice Heard -Forwarded
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Message-ID: <01BD8239.0277E300@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Hank Nussbacher'" <hank@ibm.net.il>
Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET'"
      <DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'" <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'Scott Bradner'" <sob@harvard.edu>,
        "'tld-wg@ripe.net'"
      <tld-wg@ripe.net>
Subject: RE: Making Your Voice Heard
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 08:43:19 -0500
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 9:33 AM, Hank Nussbacher[SMTP:hank@ibm.net.il] =
wrote:
@At 07:54 AM 5/18/98 -0500, Jim Fleming wrote:
@
@I am not sure that Becky Burr and Ira Magaziner and the domain-policy =
list
@and the tld-wg list care about a 6 month old posting to 6 Israeli =
specific
@Usenet groups about an ISOC-IL conference, which has absolutely nothing =
to
@do with anything.
@
@-Hank
@

Since you are not sure, let me explain. You have been complaining
that your voice is not being heard. I was pointing out that it is up to
you and people like Scott Bradner to make sure your voice is heard.

Now, you seem to prefer to do that by censoring people, by having
people removed from the discussions. I suppose that would make it
easier for you and Scott Bradner to be heard, but I do not think that
is acceptable to the majority of people.

As for being specific to Israel. You might want to work with the
government officials in Israel to make sure that they formulate a
policy that helps to make your voice heard louder in the U.S. That
is something I do not think that you have done. I do not recall seeing
anything from the government in Israel on the U.S. Government's
web site where these comments get posted.

Again...I do not think that it is my job to help you get your message
out. I know that Scott Bradner submitted material to the U.S. Government
because it is listed along with other "paper" submittals. Here is the
URL.

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/scanned/index.html

As for submissions from you or Israel, I suggest that you provide
the links to those. It is not our job to help you make your voice
be heard.

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM

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From - Tue May 19 16:44:07 1998
Message-Id: <00001AE8@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:17:29 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: RE: More on Neighbor Net for .WINE  -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:07:27 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: RE: More on Neighbor Net for .WINE  -Forwarded
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Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP
id LAA07865; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:35:58 -0500
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Message-ID: <01BD8250.5B89E440@webster.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>
To: "'Michael Dillon'" <michael@memra.com>
Cc: Annie Renard <Annie.Renard@nic.fr>,
        "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'"
      <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
        "'Dave Crocker'" <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>,
        "'DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET'"
      <DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET>,
        "'John Gilmore'" <gnu@toad.com>, "'Hank Nussbacher'" <hank@ibm.net.il>
Cc: "'Don Heath'" <heath@isoc.org>,
        "'Ira Magaziner'"
      <Ira Magaziner>,
        "'Kent Crispin'" <kent@SONGBIRD.COM>,
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        "'Richard J. Sexton'" <richard@SEXTON.COM>
Cc: "'Robert L. Shearing'" <robert@priori.net>,
        "'Scott Bradner'"
      <sob@harvard.edu>,
        "tld-wg@ripe.net" <tld-wg@ripe.net>,
        "'vinton g. cerf'" <vcerf@MCI.NET>
Subject: RE: More on Neighbor Net for .WINE 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:30:26 -0500
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 3:22 AM, Michael Dillon[SMTP:michael@memra.com] =
wrote:
@On Mon, 18 May 1998, Jim Fleming wrote:
@
@> @Jim is what one science fiction story termed an "agent provocateur" =
(where,
@> @when the world is totally wired and everyone is on email, along comes =
a
@> @person who talks the talk and walks the walk but is a bit demented and =
only
@> @a few people can see thru his techno-mumbo-jumbo as being garbage).  =
His
@> @purpose in life is to drum up controversy and to have people run off =
in
@> @directions that are unproductive. =20
@
@It is my studied opinion that Jim Fleming is not demented, that he has a
@specific goal in his provocateur activities and that he is likely being
@paid to do this by the U.S. telco industry. His goal is to discredit the
@Internet governance infrastructure in order to manipulate the U.S.=20
@government into creating an FCC-like regulatory infrastructure for the
@Internet. The U.S. telcos (and indeed national PTTs the world over) like
@this sort of structure because they know that, with it they can control
@the Internet by the same sorts of political manoeuverings they have
@perfected over the past several generations.=20
@
@So Hank is basically right that the best response is to take some time to
@do more talking to government. However don't be misled by Jim's email =
spew
@into thinking that a few emails to the right places will suffice. It is
@far more effective to take the time to write a cogent discussion of the
@issues and then snail-mail the document to the government agency. Or to
@visit them in person for a face-to-face discussion.
@
@--
@Michael Dillon                 -               Internet & ISP Consulting
@Memra Communications Inc.      -               E-mail: michael@memra.com
@http://www.memra.com           -  *check out the new name & new website*
@
@

Michael,

Your participation in the development of the IAHC/CORE plan
and Hank Nussbacher's role as a member of the IAHC committee
are well known. Also, your involvement with the creation of ARIN
and your role on the ARIN Advisory Council are well known.
Also, your various attempts to commute from Canada and to work
in the United States are well known. Your constant focus on the
U.S. ISP marketplace is well known. Why don't you become a
U.S. citizen ? Then you could have a larger voice with the U.S.
Government. If that is not your pleasure, then I suggest that you
lobby the Canadian government to carry your message to the
U.S. Government.

As for Mr. Nussbacher. He seems concerned that his voice is
not being heard in Israel. Despite this, he clearly does not want
other voices to be heard. Here is one small example. I selected
this example because Mr. Nussbacher was recently trying to
convince Annie Renard the .FR (France) TLD administrator not
to listen to me.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

From: hank@interall.co.il (Hank Nussbacher)
Subject: Re: CFV (Call for Votes) : Creation of the israel.francophones =
newsgroup
Date: 18 Dec 1997 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <67bius$prk$1@news.ibm.net.il>
References: <3498F1B2.76DC@hotmail.com> <34993150.DF81644B@orbotech.co.il>
Organization: Hank Nussbacher, consulting
Newsgroups: israel.news.admin

I vote against.  Why not use IRC to talk frenchto each other?  Why does =
there=20
have to be a newsgroup to talk in French?

-Hank

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

In all of these cases, it seems clear that we have people like
yourself and Mr. Nussbacher who are not working via their
governments to make sure your voices are heard. Instead,
you seem to think that you can enter the U.S. via electronic
networks to dominate this marketplace and the U.S. Government.

I have a feeling that the U.S. Government is on the look-out
for this type of activity and will listen to their taxpayers before
you or Mr. Nussbacher. If they do not, they then have to deal
with U.S. taxpayers at the next election or in person.

As a U.S. citizen and U.S. taxpayer my recommendation is
for the U.S. Government to start dealing with other governments.
This will allow them to have the Canadian government present
a more balanced view from your country. Likewise, the same
can be said for Israel.

I encourage you to follow your own advice and contact YOUR
government officials. Let the U.S. taxpayers and government
officials work together on our own plan. We will let you know
how it comes out.

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM

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From - Tue May 19 16:44:07 1998
Message-Id: <00001AF4@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:18:56 -0400
From: "Karen Rose" 
To: Herschel Gelman
Subject: Re: ARIN Mailing Lists -Forwarded -Forwarded
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:08:53 -0400
From: "Becky Burr" <bburr@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov>
To: Karen Rose
Subject: Re: ARIN Mailing Lists -Forwarded
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 04:42:13 +0100
From: Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>
Organization: IEG. INC.
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To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@unety.net>, John Curran <jcurran@bbnplanet.com>
CC: "'arin-council@arin.net'" <arin-council@arin.net>,
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John, Ira, Jay, Jim and all,

  This is an official response from the official representative of INEG =
and its
300 plus affiliates or wholly owned companies.

Jim Fleming wrote:

> John,
>
> Why aren't the e-mail discussions to which you refer
> posted on the ARIN web site ?

  John, Jim makes a good point here by asking this question we feel.  As
a responsible ARIN board member it would appear that neglection to
post this discussion to the ARIN list for other members to review, was
purposeful.  I for one  hope this was not you motivation.

>
>
> Also, aren't these discussions subject to the "ex parte"
> rules because ARIN and IP number management is part
> of the Green Paper process ?

  Ira, is this indeed the case?  Please advise.  If not it seems to me =
that they
should
be.  Please advise.

>
>
> Jim Fleming
>
> @@@@@ http://www.arin.net/archives/arin-members.9805
>
> >From owner-arin-members  Tue May 12 21:57:42 1998
> Received: (from majordom@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) id =
VAA05569
> for arin-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:57:42 GMT
> Received: (from pdenitto@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) id =
VAA05564
> for arin-members@arin.net; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:57:41 GMT
> Received: from rs.arin.net (rs1.arin.net [192.149.252.21]) by arin.net
> (8.8.5/8.8.0) with SMTP id AAA11926 for <arin-members@arin.net>; Mon, 11
> May 1998 00:49:28 GMT
> Received: (qmail 24081 invoked from network); 11 May 1998 00:49:27 -0000
> Received: from sword.bbnplanet.com (199.94.209.25)
>   by rs1.arin.net with SMTP; 11 May 1998 00:49:27 -0000
> Received: from jcurran.bbnplanet.com (jcurran.ne.mediaone.net
> [24.128.40.80])
>         by sword.bbnplanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA07453
>         for <arin-members@arin.net>; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:49:27 -0400 =
(EDT)
> Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980510204354.00cecac4@mail.bbnplanet.com>
> X-Sender: jcurran@mail.bbnplanet.com
> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32)
> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:43:54 -0400
> To: arin-members@arin.net
> From: John Curran <jcurran@bbnplanet.com>
> Subject: Regarding the email discussions of the last two months
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
> Sender: owner-arin-members@arin.net
> Precedence: bulk
>
> [... This message being resent due to delivery failure on first attempt
> ...]
>
> Dear ARIN Members:
>
> You are all very much aware of the recent email volume over the
> last few months on the Advisory Council list and the ARIN Members'
> list discussing various aspects of ARIN policy and operation.
>
> The purpose of this letter is to make clear that the ARIN Board of
> Trustees is also very much aware of this discussion.  The Board is
> interested in much of the subject matter and topics raised.  However,
> the Board also regrets the tone that some of the exchanges have taken.

  We all, I believe are indeed regretful of some of the tone of many of =
the
posts that have been made in the recent weeks.  It is also unfortunate =
that
as an ARIN member, many are hearing very little from the ARIN council
on questions that have been posed inquiring of policy concern's and =
possible
considerations.  It is paramount to creating a mistrust situation in not
openly discussing these issues with the general membership as well as
the Internet community at large.  We hope in the future that this will
change and any and all discussions amongst the council will be shared on =
the
ARIN membership mailing list.

  We sincerely regret that such an environment may exist where openness is
not the norm and would beseech you to please consider this request
sincerely.

>
>
> The Board looks forward to hearing from the Advisory Council (AC) on
> many of the topics that have been raised, and has directed the AC to
> proceed with civil discussion towards consensus and recommendations.

  We as well, some 300 plus commercial and non commercial organizations
strong, also share your sentiment here as well, John.  We as I said above
would like to see several changes in the operation of the AC and the ARIN
council.  Two of which would be the posting of all minuets of all meetings
of the AC and the ARIN council on the ARIN member ship mailing list
unedited.  In addition an opening up of the AC and the ARIN council
for direct participation of its members on a fairly regular basis on the =
ARIN
membership mailing list.  In taking these two small steps, it is our =
belief that

a stronger trust can be established with the Internet community and most
especially with the ARIN membership in general.  Please feel free to =
contact
me via E-mail if you wish to discuss this request further.

>
>
> The ARIN Board will be meeting on June 30, the day after the AC meeting,
> and looks forward to any recommendations from the AC on these matters.

  John, we would like to know if the minuets of this meeting unedited, =
will be
posted on the ARIN membership mailing list?  Please advise.

  Ira, is it possible that you also might second the recommendation for a =
open
dialog and production of the minuets of any and all meetings of the ARIN
council and the AC?  Please advise.

>
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Curran
> Chairman
> Board of Trustees
>
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
> -
> Jim Fleming
> Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net
> IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race
> AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM

 Regards,

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Jeffrey A. Williams
DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com

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