MINUTES OF THE 
FEDERAL INTERAGENCY COMMITTEE ON
EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES (FICEMS)
Ambulance Safety Subcommittee

DATE & TIME:June 3, 2004 9:00 a.m.  LOCATION:	National Emergency Training 
Center (NETC)
Building J, Room 101 
16825 South Seton Avenue
Emmitsburg, Maryland 21727
MEMBER AGENCY REPRESENTATION:Department of Homeland Security
Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
Mr. Bill Troup
United States Fire Administration

Mr. Steve Dyer  Intern working for 
United States Fire Administration
Department of Agriculture
No Representation
Department of Commerce (DOC)
No Representation
Department of Defense (DOD)
Department of the Navy
CDR. Duane C. Caneva
Bureau of Medicine and Surgery
Department of Health and Human Services
(DHHS)
Ms. Nancy Romano 
AS Subcommittee Chair
National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH)

Indian Health Service
Cathy Stueckemann
Office of Clinical and Preventative Services
Leah Hess
Office of Clinical and Preventative Services
Department of Interior
No Representation 
Department of Justice (DOJ)
No Representation 
Department of Labor
No Representation 
Department of Transportation (DOT)
Mr. Dave Bryson
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)

Mr. Drew Dawson
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Department of Veteran Affairs
No Representation
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)
No Representation
Federal Communications Commission
No Representation
General Services Administration (GSA)
No Representation
OTHER ATTENDEES PRIVATE SECTOR:American Ambulance Association
Mr. Kurt Krumperman
American Integrated Training Systems (AITS)
Mr. Billy Rutherford
American Society Testing & Materials (ASTM)
Mr. Pete Chambers
Council of Governments
Ms. Christine Woodard

Maryland Institute for Emergency Medical Services System
Ms. Rene Fechter
National Volunteer Fire Council (NVFC)
Mr. Joe Robison
VFIS
Mr. Richard Patrick
DIAL-IN PARTICIPANTS:Centronia Ambulance Corps
Mr. Larry Wiersch
Commission on Accreditation of Medical Transport Systems
Ms. Eileen Frazier
Department of Health and Human Services
(DHHS)
Ms. Nancy Romano 
AS Subcommittee Chair
National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH)
Estero Fire & Rescue Department & IAOFC
Dr. Jeff Lindsey
Harlem Hospital
Ms. Nadine Levick
International Association of Fire Fighters
Mr. Jonathan Moore
Little Rock, AR, Metropolitan Emergency Medical Systems (MEMS)
Mr. Jon Swanson 
The Insurance Professionals
Mr. Bill Leonard

I.	WELCOME

Ms. Nancy Romano called the meeting to order at 9:00 a.m. and proceeded with 
introductions. 

II. 	INTRODUCTIONS and REVIEW OF ATTENDEESS' INVOLVEMENT IN AMBULANCE SAFETY 
PROJECTS

Attendees introduced themselves and Ms. Romano made a motion to approve the 
meeting minutes from March. Minutes were approved. 

Dial-in participants continued to express their difficulty hearing people in the 
room, and though efforts were made to improve this condition, those on the phone 
reiterated experience difficulty hearing. 

Ms. Romano, NIOSH,  mentioned that the subcommittee continues to grow and let 
take this opportunity to go around the room and talk about the projects each of 
you are working on and share those with the group.

Mr. David Bryson, NHTSA, discussed the proposed purpose/agenda for a 1-day event 
similar to this subcommittee, however, plans to invite other participates as 
well.  NHTSA welcomes feedback on the agenda and topics listed on the draft 
handout, see attachment.  The anticipated location is at NHTSA sometime in 
November.  

Mr. Pete Chambers, ASTM, suggested doing a track at one of the annual 
conferences such as the EMS Expo or a similar event.

Mr. Drew Dawson, NHTSA, mentioned that combined meetings have not been received 
well.  The federal participates seem to have very limited ability to send 
multiple people on travel at the same time, therefore reducing the federal 
participation if combined at a national/annual conference.

Mr. Bill Troup, USFA, also noted that funding availability is sensitive to the 
timing of the event.

Mr. Bill Leonard, The Insurance Professionals, asked if there is a list of the 
EMS industry related conferences available.  Ms. Romano will provide a list of 
Federal agency meetings/conferences to Mr. Leonard. (ACTION ITEM)

Mr. Kurt Krumperman, AAA, provided a comment for David Bryson regarding the 
presentation on the black box; he suggested putting out a broad invite to 
various vendors of driving safety providers.  

Mr. Pete Chambers, ASTM, commented that this approach might open up pandora's 
box since Mr. Bryson is looking at specific data collected by NHTSA vs. a 
technology driven data.  

Mr. David Bryson, NHTSA, agreed with both Mr. Krumperman and Mr. Chambers that 
it is important to key in on the data vs. technology so that we keep Pandora's 
Box closed.

Ms. Cathy Stueckemann, IHS, currently has been working on Emergency Vehicle 
Operation Courses, three which have been completed thus far at our national 
training center. 

CDR. Duane Caneva, U.S. Navy, mentioned they are trying to figure out who will 
be riding on their ambulances.  Traditionally it has been our corpsman but over 
the past several years, it has been switching between personnel and other 
staffing. We are trying to figure out what is the best approach, who will be the 
project manager etc Other areas of interest may be; DREAMS, a Research & 
Development program, which provides a telemedicine capability on an ambulance 
meant for the field core in conjunction with a large civilian piece (may be 
related to the black box).  We have also been receiving a lot of information 
back from Operation Iraqi Freedom on the gold standards used on the battle 
field. It is probably more related to helo safety protocol but that could indeed 
apply to the civilian world.  

Ms. Nancy Romano recommended he talk more about this at the September FICEMS 
Meeting.  Commander Caneva said he would confirm a volunteer to talk more about 
these issues for the main FICEMS meeting in September. (ACTION ITEM for Main 
FICEMS)

Mr. Billy Rutherford, reported that there is a lot of information & work 
available in these areas that Commander Caneva mentioned. If interested in this 
work, contact Mr. Rutherford and he will be glad to share that information.

Ms. Nancy Romano, NIOSH, mentioned that they are still analyzing crash testing 
and pretty soon will be able to present this data. They are moving into the next 
phase of the Occupant Safety project which relates to the human factors.

Mr. Bill Troup, USFA, addressed that the USFA has just finished up the Emergency 
Vehicle Safety Initiative.  They hope to have the report printed and on the 
website sometime this summer.  Mr. Troup expressed thanks to those who helped on 
this initiative.  Now entering phase two, they are taking the recommendation 
from the Emergency Vehicle Safety Initiative and partnering with the three major 
national fire trade groups to take the recommendations and develop targeted 
strategies for implementation with their constituent groups.  

USFA is working with the Society of Automotive Engineers  received funding from 
the federal community, addressing science & technology issues to prevent the 
blinding of oncoming drivers (loss of night vision).

Another project on the horizon is the Traffic Incident Management Systems, USFA 
is partnering with International Fire Service Training Association to look at 
layouts of vehicles on the highway to prevent fire fighters & vehicles from 
being struck. 

Reports: Other Interested Parties

Ms. Renee Fechter, MIMS, reported that the commercial ambulance division has 
been focused on ambulance safety for sometime.  Currently we are trying to 
create a database to focus our efforts and where we can go to increase the 
safety issues and improve ambulances.  Mr. Bill Troup suggested contacting Paul 
Moore; the interest is similar to the study that Paul Moore is conducting on 
crash testing.  

Dr. Nadine Levick, Harlem Hospital, expressed that there is a lot of 
reproduction in regards to data collection and research that we are all doing.  
We need to optimize what has already been done in the States and throughout the 
world.  She will be happy to share data & to ensure we are not duplicating 
research that has already been done.  The real concern is this is reinventing 
the wheel.  Ms. Fechter commented that she would be interested in the data.  Mr. 
Bill Troup will forward Dr. Levick's contact information to Ms. Fechter (ACTION 
ITEM) 

Mr. Rick Patrick,VFIS, commented about Operation Safe Arrival, an initiative 
which began 2-years ago to address the issues of emergency vehicle collisions.  
The internal research showed that the majority of the issues appeared to be lack 
of management driven for safe driving. Operation Safe Arrival is an incentive 
based program, now in 5 focused states, asking them to participate in this 
campaign to make a cultural change from the top down.  Phase I deals with 
intersections since it is the primary area of concern.  Eventually, we will 
hopefully roll-out to the rest of the states (Hawaii is not an issue based on 
the data collected).  The future phases are Phase II  planned to deal with roll 
overs, & Phase III  addressing highway safety.  Our programs have nothing to do 
with tangible risk control products; it's based on 100% prevention on the human 
component. Ms. Romano asked that he provide a short presentation on this program 
at the September meeting. (AGENDA ITEM) Mr. Patrick will let Ms. Romano know how 
much time to a lot for the presentation. (ACTION ITEM)

Mr. Vic DeSantis, SafetyTech International Inc., nothing to report at this time.

Ms. Christine Woodard, Council of Governments, nothing to report at this time.

Mr. Billy Rutherford, American Integrated Training Systems, reported AITS 
continues to be involved in train-the trainer course for the EVOC course. He 
also mentioned they are doing a lot of work in emergency response/responder 
work, but the Air Force is doing a better job developing training documentation.

Dr. Jeff Lindsey, Estero Fire & Rescue Department, reported and discussed 
simulation and effects/benefits.  When in a simulation environment, you are 
looking at two learning transfer environments 1) near and 2) far.   In 
Lafayette, we looked at a near learning transfer environment study.  Far 
learning transfer is not exactly the same as what they learn when they get into 
a different/multiple vehicles.  He mentioned that he does not advocate that 
simulation is a replacement for true emergency vehicle driving training but it 
has shown in multiple disciplines a true effect on teaching individuals how to 
operate different types of vehicles has shown a number of great effects.  This 
is the first research that has dealt with EMS drivers using a simulator to test 
the effects of the study and if there are significant effects, I am happy to 
report that the effects were indeed significant.  Ms. Romano also suggested 
adding a short presentation at the September meeting. (AGENDA ITEM)

Mr. Joe Robison, National Volunteer Fire Council, reported he was looking 
forward to your report (USFA) coming out in September.  Mr. Robison recently 
visited the Mediterranean and is interested in why European emergency vehicles 
run with their lights on all the time.  This question was posed for Ms. Levick 
who was not on the conference call at this time.

Mr. Pete Chambers, ASTM, noted that ASTM deals more in terms of the 
specifications and the science behind the vehicles themselves.  When we begin 
talking about Dr. Levick data as cross over data, he doesn't understand how the 
data can be cross-over data since Europe do not have ambulances that are similar 
to those used in the states.  

With the important information coming out of the testing, the industry 
improvements, testing methods are getting better but right know we keep 
discussing and reiterating the safety issues.  Mr. Chambers expressed that he is 
not sure what the subcommittees focus is right now.  His understanding was that 
discussing the human factor was the next step.  He expressed that he would like 
a more focused approach from the group on whatever we choose to deal with.  The 
outcomes would become more valuable if we become more focused.  Each meeting we 
continue to hear introductions on new efforts which indefinite extend the effort 
the group can put forth.

ASTM has used Mel's KKK standard as the basis and moving forward and trying to 
put science behind them.  ASTM & Mr. Chambers are looking for the science behind 
them vs. the anecdotal variances.  Mr. Chambers expressed he would like more 
leadership on the focus of this subcommittee.

Mr. Kurt Krumperman, AAA, defers to Larry Wiersch to report on the AAA 
activities.

Mr. Larry Weirsch, AAA, mentioned that they have accomplished the ability to 
make sure science is recognized as a significant issue. He noted that overall 
they have had a relatively poor response from the states in relation to data 
collection. When they get the data, they are going to attempt to put science 
behind the data.  We have seen a huge change from the human factor perspective.  
Essentially, we are addressing the human factor with additional training.  
Participating in the VFIS program and we are seeing behavioral changes with 
positive impact on the human factor.  Progress is slow but we are getting all on 
the same page.

Dr. Jeff Lindsey, IAOFC & Estero Fire & Rescue Department, reported that he is 
working with Operation Safe arrival with Mr. Patrick, working on a research 
study using simulation of emergency response drivers.

Mr. Bill Leonard, The Insurance Professionals, reported an increase in stretcher 
issues which seem to be a center of gravity issue, and the other is the lack of 
use of shoulder restraints inside the vehicles.  Dr. Jack Lindsey mentioned that 
since the institution of their program, Operation Safe Arrival, they have seen a 
dramatic change in that mentality just by additional recognition and monitoring.

Ms. Eileen Frazier, Commission on Accreditation of Medical Transport Systems, 
wanted to add to Larry Wiersch's comment about data.  Ms. Frazier attended the 
National Association of State EMS Directors Meeting last year and one of their 
projects is to collect ambulance accident data on a nationwide basis.  We should 
be able to get collective data shortly.  

III.	SUBCOMMITTEE OBJECTIVE
	
The section was not discussed at length other than Mr. Chambers mentioning his 
interest in the subcommittee becoming more focused and requesting additional 
leadership from this aspect.

IV.		ACTION ITEM REVIEW	

Mr. Bill Troup investigated the possibility of developing web links from 
the FICEMS Page of the USFA website that could include Federal agencies that 
participate in FICEMS as members, and potentially non-member organizations. 
Update: At this point, since FICEMS is not an advisory committee, the web links 
should pertain to Federal participants.   

Ms. Nancy Romano sent members the database that she and Mr. John Russell are 
putting together with good information on crash data and information on 
organized training programs.

Mr. Jeff Lindsey was scheduled to do a presentation on his paper on using 
simulators to train emergency drivers at the June meeting. Update: This 
presentation has been moved to the September meeting.
Ms. Nancy Romano will forward information to the group from Mr. Brian Walker 
regarding dealing with bio-terrorism events.  Update: Ms. Romano will forward 
the information once she receives the information from Mr. Walker.

NEW ACTION ITEMS from this meeting: 

1. Ms. Romano will provide a list of Federal agency meetings/conferences to Mr. 
Leonard.
2. Ms. Nancy Romano recommended he talk more about this in the September FICEMS 
Meeting.  Commander Caneva said he would confirm if a volunteer could talk more 
about these issues for the main FICEMS meeting in September. (ACTION ITEM for 
Main FICEMS Meeting)
3. Mr. Bill Troup will forward Dr. Levick's contact information to Ms. Fechter.
4. Ms. Romano asked that Mr. Rick Patrick provide a short presentation Operation 
Safe Arrival at the September meeting. Mr. Patrick will let Ms. Romano know how 
much time to a lot for the presentation.
5. It was suggested and agreed upon that the AS would have frequent 
teleconferences due to time issues and difficulty hearing when calling into 
FICEMS.  Ms. Romano agreed to have the teleconferences and use the quarterly 
meetings for more subcommittee updates.

V.	NEXT MEETING AGENDA 
	
	Presentation by Mr. Rick Patrick on Operation Safe Arrival
	Presentation by Dr. Jeff Lindsey on Simulation Effects and Benefits

VI.	NEXT MEETING

September 2, 2004, 9:00 a.m.
Building J, Room 107
NETC, Emmitsburg, MD

VII.	ADJOURNMENT

Meeting adjourned at 10:30 a.m.

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FICEMS Ambulance Safety Subcommittee DRAFT Minutes  June 2004

FICEMS Ambulance Safety Subcommittee DRAFT Minutes  June 2004