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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 13:37:40 +0100
From: Nicolas POINTEAU <npointea at enserg.fr>
Message-ID: <37A2EE13.59B6A81C at enserg.fr>
Organization: University of Warwick, UK
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Subject: Fits convert into (bmp,tif,gif)
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I'm looking how the programming convert FITS images. I can open these 16
bits FITS images with the MATLAB code, and then I'd like to convert
image into 8 bits. I don't succeed. I think that we have to define High
and Low level to do this convertion, but I don't know how it works.

Thanks for your answer.

Research Student. J.FISCHER

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Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 16:22:01 GMT
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Subject: Re: Fits convert into (bmp,tif,gif)
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In article <37A2EE13.59B6A81C at enserg.fr>, Nicolas POINTEAU <npointea at enserg.fr> wrote:
>I'm looking how the programming convert FITS images. I can open these 16
>bits FITS images with the MATLAB code, and then I'd like to convert
>image into 8 bits. I don't succeed. I think that we have to define High
>and Low level to do this convertion, but I don't know how it works.

Conversion from 16 to 8 bit can be done quite simply by discarding the lower 8 
bits, that is by shifting right 8 bits. Now I'm sure you have tried this and 
I don't know MATLAB so maybe it's a problem due to the FITS specifications. In 
FITS there are two numbers called DATAMIN and DATAMAX: all samples fall within 
the range specified by these two numbers. Now if for example MINVAL=23 and 
MAXVAL=191 you can encode the FITS using 8 bits, 16 bits, 32 bits and even 
floating point values and all this numbers will be exactly the same. It this 
is the case then by shifting right you are destroying the information which is 
only placed in the lower bits! So I would try to scale the values (keeping 
into account BZERO and BSCALE) into the full 16 bit range or even direcly to 
the 8 bit range. Also a problem I have found with some FITS images is that 
they use only a part of the allowed range and are in need of a 
(histogram) contrast stretch. If this doesn't work let me know and I'll 
provide you some source code to read FITS into 8 bit gray and RGB.

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Fri Aug  6 09:41:53 1999
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 11:35:43 GMT
From: super_banane at my-deja.com
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Subject: Re: Fits convert into (bmp,tif,gif)
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In article <37A2EE13.59B6A81C at enserg.fr>,
  Nicolas POINTEAU <npointea at enserg.fr> wrote:
> I'm looking how the programming convert FITS images. I can open these
16
> bits FITS images with the MATLAB code, and then I'd like to convert
> image into 8 bits. I don't succeed. I think that we have to define
High
> and Low level to do this convertion, but I don't know how it works.
>

Hello:

If you are just looking for a utility that converts
FITS files pixel depths, you might be interested
in the following stand-alone C code:

http://www.eso.org/~ndevilla/saft

Go to the bottom of the page and have a look at
'iofits'. It does pixel depth conversion between
all possible FITS types. Beware that no scaling
is applied, though.

'iofits' is stand-alone, i.e. you do not need any
special library or compiler nor external programs
to compile and use it. Just do:

gcc -o iofits iofits.c

... and you're done.

Hope it helps,
--
Nicolas
PS: This posting address ( at my-deja.com) is phony
    to avoid spam.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Thu Aug 19 09:16:44 1999
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:49:36 -0700
From: "Dumbo" <dumbo at hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <SRLu3.604$26.133564 at typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Organization: SBC Internet Services
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Reply-To: "Dumbo" <dumbo at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: programs which support FITS
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William Pence <pence at tetra.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote in message
news:37A081BE.48C66C94 at tetra.gsfc.nasa.gov...
> Bob Denny wrote [to Bill Cotton]:
> >
> > I just wanted to thank you for FITSView! There's a lot of great
technology
> > hidden behind its modest user interface. I am just about to release some
> > amateur/educational software that generates and uses WCS, and I have
used
> > your program tons of times myself and for demonstrations to show why
> > everyone should be using WCS. Your histogram EQ is virtually perfect for
> > eyeball work without having to adjust the B and C controls.
> >
> > The port of fv from the FITS Tools is abysmal as far as its user
interface
> > goes. It won't even fit on an 800x600 screen, and the controls are
> > unbelievably baroque. Just try blinking images :-) Plus it has to
install a
> > monster load of emulation junk just for that one program.
> >
>
> Bob,
>
> Sorry you didn't have a good first impression of fv.  First, make sure
that
> you are using the latest 2.5 version that was released in May 1999; it
sounds
> like you may have an old version.
>
> Fv is designed to view and edit any FITS file, possibly containing
multiple
> tables and/or images, so the user interface has many menus and options.
> There is a short tutorial/user's guide available from the fv web site that
> explains how to use many of the features for new users.
>
> As for fitting on an 800x600 screen, you can select a default image window
> ranging from 300x300 to 700x700 pixels in size, which should suit any
screen
> resolution.  Regardless of the default size, you can interactively resize
the
> images by dragging a corner with the mouse.
>
> Blinking of 2 images can be done very quickly and easily: open and display
> both images (they initially appear side by side on the display canvas),
click
> on the 'merge graphs' option to combine both images in the same graph,
then
> click on 'blink images' to start the blinking.  You can blink any number
of
> images at one time (not just 2), and the position registration of the
images
> is determined by the WCS information, so the images do not need to have
the
> same size or scale.  You can also pan and zoom within the images while the
> blinking is in progress.
>
> Other useful image display features in fv are:
>
>   - draws a grid of RA and DEC lines over the image
>   - contour plots can be generated and combined with other
>     images (e.g., draw optical contours on top of a radio image)
>   - brightness/contrast and panning/zooming are interactively
>     adjustable by dragging the mouse over the image
>   - 20 different color mappings, and 3 different intensity scaling
>     options (linear, log, or square root) are provided.
>
> Histogram equalization is not currently provided, but that is high on the
list
> of enhancements for the next release.
>
> Finally, the installation of fv is intended to be easy and quick.  The
windows
> .zip file is only 2.6MB in size.  Fv is written in native Tcl/Tk code, so
it
> is not an emulation.
>
> So, we hope you will give fv another try. It is available from the fv web
site
> at:
>
> http://legacy.gsfc.nasa.gov/ftools/fv/
>
> We can also send a version on CDROM to Linux PC users.  Any questions,
> problems, or suggestions about fv should be sent to:
>
> ftoolshelp at athena.gsfc.nasa.gov
>
> regards,
> Bill Pence
> (for the ftools group)

Fv was the only viewer that let me look at the spectra stored at the ADC.

Bizzarely however after I tried unsuccessfuly using the fv with the full
Ftool install it wouldnt work. It just kept on giving invalid Fit file
errors every time I tried to view them. Frustrated I uninstalled it and some
days later and tried the lite fv download on its own. Voila, it worked.

Not sure why the lite download would work where the full one didnt but I
assume its down to an IUI error (Insufficient User Intelligence).

Anyways now I am happily looking at my spectra so the point is moot ;)
Thanks for a great (and free) product.

_dumbo

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Thu Aug 19 11:52:47 1999
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This difference is probably explained by the fact that the stand-alone version
of fv available from

http://legacy.gsfc.nasa.gov/ftools/fv/

is a later version than the one that was distributed with the ftools software
release.  This later version has more features and has fixed a few bugs.  Also,
this is not a 'lite' version in the sense that it has all the features, and much
more, than in the ftools release version.

-Bill Pence

Dumbo wrote:
>
> Fv was the only viewer that let me look at the spectra stored at the ADC.
> 
> Bizzarely however after I tried unsuccessfuly using the fv with the full
> Ftool install it wouldnt work. It just kept on giving invalid Fit file
> errors every time I tried to view them. Frustrated I uninstalled it and some
> days later and tried the lite fv download on its own. Voila, it worked.
> 
> Not sure why the lite download would work where the full one didnt but I
> assume its down to an IUI error (Insufficient User Intelligence).
> 
> Anyways now I am happily looking at my spectra so the point is moot ;)
> Thanks for a great (and free) product.
> 
> _dumbo

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Fri Aug 20 10:32:57 1999
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:37:49 GMT
From: Richard Dodson <rdodson at hoyle.phys.utas.edu.au>
Message-ID: <u3ogg34789.fsf at hoyle.phys.utas.edu.au>
Organization: Another Optus Customer
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Subject: Reading AIPS tapes with NT or VMS
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	I have a problem - a AIPS DAT tape made (with FITTP I believe)
on UNIX and no DAT tape drive.

	I have found a DAT tape drive on a VMS machine (don't ask!) and
a NT machine. 

	Has anyone got any suggestions how I can get to my data? 

			Richard

PS Best mail any suggestions - this news group appeared to be empty, I
don't think it is being downloaded here. 

-- 
Richard Dodson : Post-Doctoral Fellow (Radio Astronomy), University of Tasmania
email : Richard.Dodson at utas.edu.au
WWW   : http://www-ra.phys.utas.edu.au/~rdodson
Phone : 6248 5285 or 6226 2414 (Work)     ; Area Code : +61 3 (International)
        6223 5542 (Home), 6226 2410 (Fax)               03 (Australia)

      There is no hope to recover near future without any lack. 

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Tue Aug 24 16:07:32 1999
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:55:42 -0700
From: Lee Elson <elson at magus.jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <37C2CE8E.E42A6EDD at magus.jpl.nasa.gov>
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory - Pasadena CA
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Subject: Free visualization software
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology,sci.geo.eos,sci.astro.fits
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Dear Colleague:

We have made available the first full release of our free Java-based
science visualization and analysis package, WebWinds.
To download a copy of this release, go to http://webwinds.jpl.nasa.gov.
Key features of this package include:

* Cross platform capability: Windows (95/98/NT), Mac, Unix/Linux.

* The ability to present and manipulate 2 and 3 dimensional data in
  a variety of 1 and 2 dimensional display tools.

* The ability to subset and subsample data on input or display output,
  making it possible to handle very large data sets.

* Simultaneous display and analysis of multiple data sets which may be
  unrelated.

* Interactive data, image and color manipulation.

* The ability to act as a Web browser helper application, making it
possible to
  survey scientific data archives in interactive mode.

* A scripting language which allows session configuration, re-run
  and real-time network collaboration, automatically.

* A context sensitive help system.

* Complete documentation including examples.

This version has several new features:

1) Modified or original data may be saved in several formats including
FITS and NetCDF.

2) Most types of files may be stacked together (concatenated) to produce
a larger file.
This allows, for example, daily maps of a quantity to be combined to
produce a file
which can be animated. Subfiles within a file can also be concatenated
in some cases.

3) HDF files can be displayed using included geolocation information.

4) A new Overlay tool allows tabular (ASCII) data to be superimposed on
an Image.
These overlays can show variations in symbol size, color and range and
thus
represent the numerical value of the tabular data.

5) Shortcuts can be generated automatically with macros.

6) A new Pause tool allows the temporary delay of the execution of a
script,
allowing, e.g., the dynamic selection of a file.

7) Separate, complete installation packages for PC, Mac, Sun, SGI and
Linux systems. This
enables 'one stop' shopping and simple installation.

8) WebWinds is compatible with Java 2 (JDK 1.2).

9) The ability to display several types of coordinate projections for
some types of data.

10) An enhanced capability to read in different data types.

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Wed Aug 25 16:24:23 1999
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: 25 Aug 1999 19:19:36 GMT
From: nolan at alumni.caltech.edu (Michael C. Nolan)
Message-ID: <7q1fk8$fiv at gap.cco.caltech.edu>
Organization: Arecibo Observatory
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Subject: Complex images
Newsgroups: sci.astro.fits
Sender: owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu
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I need to make some complex-valued images.  As there is no complex
BITPIX, I guess I need a real/imaginary axis.  Does anybody
have established conventions for this?

Thanks,

-Mike Nolan
-- 
Mike Nolan +1 787 878 2612x334 Fax: +1 787 878 1861 nolan at *naic.edu
Arecibo Observatory/Cornell University, HC03 Box 53995, Arecibo, PR 00612 USA

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Sun Aug 29 14:22:05 1999
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:19:28 GMT
From: coldrake at escape.ca (David Ball)
Message-ID: <Qjby3.2766$1i4.174138 at typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca>
Organization: MBnet Networking Inc.
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References: <37C2CE8E.E42A6EDD at magus.jpl.nasa.gov> <7qbe55$91l at journal.concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Free visualization software
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology,sci.geo.eos,sci.astro.fits
Sender: owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu
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"Spamfree" <Spamfree at DELETETHIS.spamfree.net> wrote:

>Beautiful.  Yet more commercial spam.  Can't these turlingdromes understand
>that the world was not intended to be one huge advertisement?

>But then again - what would you expect from a government employee?

>--
>Friends don't let friends use e-bay
>E-bay: proud sponsor of Al Gore's 2000 presidential campaign

	It's sci.geo.meteorology, sir. One aspect of the science of
meteorology is the ability to visualize data. I don't have a problem
with a post like this, and I suspect there are many who don't. There
are regular posts to this group from people looking for software,
data, etc. I'm always on the hunt for new software that will help me
do my job a little better. While you are entitled to your opinion, it
is just that, your opinion. Until they rename this newsgroup,
sci.geo.spamfree, I don't believe it is appropriate for you to assume
that you have a either the wit or the intellect to decide for all of
the users out there what they might want to know about.

	--
	David Ball
	

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Sun Aug 29 14:22:05 1999
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: 29 Aug 1999 06:55:49 PDT
From: "Spamfree" <Spamfree at DELETETHIS.spamfree.net>
Message-ID: <7qbe55$91l at journal.concentric.net>
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
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References: <37C2CE8E.E42A6EDD at magus.jpl.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Free visualization software
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology,sci.geo.eos,sci.astro.fits
Sender: owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu
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Beautiful.  Yet more commercial spam.  Can't these turlingdromes understand
that the world was not intended to be one huge advertisement?

But then again - what would you expect from a government employee?

--
Friends don't let friends use e-bay
E-bay: proud sponsor of Al Gore's 2000 presidential campaign

Lee Elson <elson at magus.jpl.nasa.gov> wrote in message
news:37C2CE8E.E42A6EDD at magus.jpl.nasa.gov...
> Dear Colleague:
>
> We have made available the first full release of our free Java-based
> science visualization and analysis package, WebWinds.
> To download a copy of this release, go to http://webwinds.jpl.nasa.gov.
> Key features of this package include:
>
> * Cross platform capability: Windows (95/98/NT), Mac, Unix/Linux.
>
> * The ability to present and manipulate 2 and 3 dimensional data in
>   a variety of 1 and 2 dimensional display tools.
>
> * The ability to subset and subsample data on input or display output,
>   making it possible to handle very large data sets.
>
> * Simultaneous display and analysis of multiple data sets which may be
>   unrelated.
>
> * Interactive data, image and color manipulation.
>
> * The ability to act as a Web browser helper application, making it
> possible to
>   survey scientific data archives in interactive mode.
>
> * A scripting language which allows session configuration, re-run
>   and real-time network collaboration, automatically.
>
> * A context sensitive help system.
>
> * Complete documentation including examples.
>
>
> This version has several new features:
>
> 1) Modified or original data may be saved in several formats including
> FITS and NetCDF.
>
> 2) Most types of files may be stacked together (concatenated) to produce
> a larger file.
> This allows, for example, daily maps of a quantity to be combined to
> produce a file
> which can be animated. Subfiles within a file can also be concatenated
> in some cases.
>
> 3) HDF files can be displayed using included geolocation information.
>
> 4) A new Overlay tool allows tabular (ASCII) data to be superimposed on
> an Image.
> These overlays can show variations in symbol size, color and range and
> thus
> represent the numerical value of the tabular data.
>
> 5) Shortcuts can be generated automatically with macros.
>
> 6) A new Pause tool allows the temporary delay of the execution of a
> script,
> allowing, e.g., the dynamic selection of a file.
>
> 7) Separate, complete installation packages for PC, Mac, Sun, SGI and
> Linux systems. This
> enables 'one stop' shopping and simple installation.
>
> 8) WebWinds is compatible with Java 2 (JDK 1.2).
>
> 9) The ability to display several types of coordinate projections for
> some types of data.
>
> 10) An enhanced capability to read in different data types.
>
>

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Sun Aug 29 14:22:07 1999
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: 29 Aug 1999 16:51:54 GMT
From: fl_aggie at thepentagon.com (I R A Darth Aggie)
Message-ID: <slrn7sipd9.oep.fl_aggie at thepentagon.com>
Organization: Texas A&M University - Tallahassee
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References: <37C2CE8E.E42A6EDD at magus.jpl.nasa.gov> <7qbe55$91l at journal.concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Free visualization software
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology,sci.geo.eos,sci.astro.fits
Sender: owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu
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On 29 Aug 1999 06:55:49 PDT, Spamfree <Spamfree at DELETETHIS.spamfree.net>, in
<7qbe55$91l at journal.concentric.net> wrote:

+ Beautiful.  Yet more commercial spam.

Really? I thought it was free. Am I mistaken? have you filed a complaint
regarding misuse of a government computer to post commercial ads? do you
know what you speak of?

I'm sorry, but that wasn't spam by any known metric.

+ But then again - what would you expect from a government employee?

He took time from his schedule to alert us to a free, meteorologically-
oriented visualization package. It is an on-topic post for this group.

Remain calm.

James

-- 
Consulting Minister for Consultants, DNRC
The Bill of Rights is paid in Responsibilities - Jean McGuire
To cure your perl CGI problems, please look at:
<url:http://www.perl.com/CPAN/doc/FAQs/cgi/idiots-guide.html>

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Sun Aug 29 14:22:27 1999
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: 29 Aug 1999 16:53:09 GMT
From: fl_aggie at thepentagon.com (I R A Darth Aggie)
Message-ID: <slrn7sipfk.oep.fl_aggie at thepentagon.com>
Organization: Texas A&M University - Tallahassee
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References: <37C2CE8E.E42A6EDD at magus.jpl.nasa.gov> <7qbe55$91l at journal.concentric.net> <Qjby3.2766$1i4.174138 at typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Free visualization software
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology,sci.geo.eos,sci.astro.fits
Sender: owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu
Precedence: bulk

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:19:28 GMT, David Ball <coldrake at escape.ca>, in
<Qjby3.2766$1i4.174138 at typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> wrote:

+ 	It's sci.geo.meteorology, sir. One aspect of the science of
+ meteorology is the ability to visualize data. I don't have a problem
+ with a post like this, and I suspect there are many who don't.

*ding*ding*ding* And it wasn't even spam by any definition I'm aware of.

James

-- 
Consulting Minister for Consultants, DNRC
The Bill of Rights is paid in Responsibilities - Jean McGuire
To cure your perl CGI problems, please look at:
<url:http://www.perl.com/CPAN/doc/FAQs/cgi/idiots-guide.html>

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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:31:48 -0500
From: juan at lua.stcloudstate.edu (Juan Cabanela)
Message-ID: <juan-2908991431480001 at sol.stcloudstate.edu>
Organization: Saint Cloud State University
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References: <37C2CE8E.E42A6EDD at magus.jpl.nasa.gov> <7qbe55$91l at journal.concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Free visualization software
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology,sci.geo.eos,sci.astro.fits
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In article <7qbe55$91l at journal.concentric.net>, "Spamfree"
<Spamfree at DELETETHIS.spamfree.net> wrote:

>Beautiful.  Yet more commercial spam.  Can't these turlingdromes understand
>that the world was not intended to be one huge advertisement?
>
>But then again - what would you expect from a government employee?

Well, apparently a lot more than I can expect from you.  If you had taken
a moment before issuing your anti-spam diatribe, you would have realized
your attack was uncalled for.  

The WebWinds groups doesn't produce commercial software, but rather they
distribute FREE platform-independent visualization software useful to
astronomers (which is why NASA's government employees are involved) and
other scientists (explaining the message's placement in certain newsgroups
for sciences where visualization is important).  The software handles,
among other image formats, FITS images, explaining its placement in the
sci.astro.fits group.  All in all, the message was well targeted to those
groups who may have an interest in obtaining this FREE tool.

The message was not spam and your attack on the WebWinds group is uncalled
for.  They provide a free service to those of us who can use the
visualization software...so "Spamfree", until you contribue something of
comparable value to the community, I suggest you crawl back to the hole
you came out.

Juan Cabanela
(Astronomer Who Plans to Use WebWinds)

-- 
And the useful addresses to report all that junk mail to:
fraudinfo at psinet.com (general frauds), pyramid at ftc.gov  (MLM stuff)
enforcement at sec.gov  (investment fraud), jccheezum at uspis.gov (chain letters)
net-abuse at nocs.insp.irs.gov (to report MMF senders as possible tax cheats) 

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Mon Aug 30 16:22:47 1999
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:10:55 +0000
From: nick at webthing.com (Nick Kew)
Message-ID: <ffheq7.6k.ln at jarl.webthing.com>
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References: <37C2CE8E.E42A6EDD at magus.jpl.nasa.gov> <7qbe55$91l at journal.concentric.net> <Qjby3.2766$1i4.174138 at typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Free visualization software
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology,sci.geo.eos,sci.astro.fits
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> 	It's sci.geo.meteorology, sir. One aspect of the science of

ObPedant: it's a crosspost (I'm reading sci.geo.eos).  But I agree
that the original post was entirely appropriate here too.

Next issue: if governments fund development of [XYZ] - in this instance
JAVA visualisation software - it can make life hard for commercial
developers to compete in the same field (why pay for my product when
theirs is free, and backed by the public purse)?  As a developer of
scientific visualisation software in JAVA, I could be tempted to see
public funding for someone elses software as unfair competition.

Now, "spamfree" was posting anonymously, so we may never know if (s)he
is in this or some analagous situation.

-- 
Nick Kew

http://www.webthing.com/software/hyperlens/	- JAVA visualisation s/w
http://hyperdaac.webthing.com/			- The intelligent client
						  for NASA DAAC servers.

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Mon Aug 30 23:35:07 1999
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: 30 Aug 1999 18:34:12 PDT
From: "Spamfree" <Spamfree at DELETETHIS.spamfree.net>
Message-ID: <7qfbek$nb7 at journal.concentric.net>
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
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References: <37C2CE8E.E42A6EDD at magus.jpl.nasa.gov> <7qbe55$91l at journal.concentric.net> <juan-2908991431480001 at sol.stcloudstate.edu>
Subject: My appology (was: Re: Free visualization software)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology,sci.geo.eos,sci.astro.fits
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I am sorry.  My complaint was entirely uncalled for and I accept the
criticism as valid and well-stated.  My critics were far more civilized than
I.

Some days I get grumpy over what seems to be non-stop (offers, deals,
guarantees, porn, pyramid schemes, software, promises, vacations, lotteries,
psychic readings, chain letters, charity scams, et al ad nauseam) in
newsgroups (and e-mail) and at times I let this get away from me and I
overreact.  This is not an excuse, for there is none.  I should have paid
more attention.

I apologize to Web Winds, readers of the group and take the lumps I so
richly deserve.

--
Friends don't let friends use e-bay
E-bay: proud sponsor of Al Gore's 2000 presidential campaign

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Mon Aug 30 23:35:37 1999
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 02:50:27 GMT
From: Russell Martin <russell.martin at mail.wdn.com>
Message-ID: <37CB4355.4AC0 at mail.wdn.com>
Organization: R. L. Martin and Associates
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References: <37C2CE8E.E42A6EDD at magus.jpl.nasa.gov> <7qbe55$91l at journal.concentric.net> <Qjby3.2766$1i4.174138 at typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <ffheq7.6k.ln at jarl.webthing.com>
Reply-To: russell.martin at mail.wdn.com
Subject: Re: Free visualization software
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology,sci.geo.eos,sci.astro.fits
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Nick Kew wrote:
> 
> >       It's sci.geo.meteorology, sir. One aspect of the science of
> 
> ObPedant: it's a crosspost (I'm reading sci.geo.eos).  But I agree
> that the original post was entirely appropriate here too.
> 
> Next issue: if governments fund development of [XYZ] - in this instance
> JAVA visualisation software - it can make life hard for commercial
> developers to compete in the same field (why pay for my product when
> theirs is free, and backed by the public purse)?  As a developer of
> scientific visualisation software in JAVA, I could be tempted to see
> public funding for someone elses software as unfair competition.
> 

You raise valid points.  Two points to consider in reply:
1. As freeware you *may* get what you pay for in terms of support,
   future upgrades, etc.  Some people will want to go with a commercial
   supplier under the theory, at least, that these will be smaller
   problems.
2. Since the taxpayers paid for its development (presumably for some
   specific internal use, not just to be produced as a software
   package), why shouldn't they get to use it if possible?  That's one
   of the great things about the WWW, IMO.  Much of the stuff that
   taxpayers never used to have access to (in part because only a
   limited number wanted it so it was not fiscally feasible to make it
   available by traditional means, especially cheaply) can now be made
   available for no incremental cost to the taxpayer who already has
   a computer, ISP, etc.  Granted that's not everyone, but in this
   case if they don't have a computer, why would they want a JAVA
   visualization package? :-)

Just $0.02 worth.

Regards,
Russell Martin

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Tue Aug 31 09:11:55 1999
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:15:25 GMT
From: coldrake at escape.ca (David Ball)
Message-ID: <xFIy3.3102$1i4.203190 at typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca>
Organization: MBnet Networking Inc.
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References: <37C2CE8E.E42A6EDD at magus.jpl.nasa.gov> <7qbe55$91l at journal.concentric.net> <Qjby3.2766$1i4.174138 at typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <ffheq7.6k.ln at jarl.webthing.com> <37CB4355.4AC0 at mail.wdn.com>
Subject: Re: Free visualization software
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology,sci.geo.eos,sci.astro.fits
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	One other point to consider is that if someone, whether it was done in
government or outside of it, has gone to the trouble to create some
visualization software, it may be because no-one in the private sector
has stepped up to the plate to create something like it yet. No-one
likes to reinvent the wheel - at least wise people don't - and for
anyone to create something unnecessary is a real waste of time.
Clearly, there was/is a need for this kind of thing. 
	As far as the commercial software goes, I think many companies are
seeing the writing on the wall. When IBM takes Data Explorer (DX), one
of the slickest visualization packages around, and hands the source
code over to the development community it tells me that something is
going on...

	---
	David Ball

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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:50:31 +0000
From: nick at webthing.com (Nick Kew)
Message-ID: <7ktgq7.dc.ln at jarl.webthing.com>
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Subject: Re: Free visualization software
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology,sci.geo.eos,sci.astro.fits
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>> Next issue: if governments fund development of [XYZ] - in this instance
>> JAVA visualisation software - it can make life hard for commercial
>> developers to compete in the same field (why pay for my product when
>> theirs is free, and backed by the public purse)?  As a developer of
>> scientific visualisation software in JAVA, I could be tempted to see
>> public funding for someone elses software as unfair competition.
>> 
> 
> You raise valid points.  Two points to consider in reply:
> 1. As freeware you *may* get what you pay for in terms of support,
>    future upgrades, etc.  Some people will want to go with a commercial
>    supplier under the theory, at least, that these will be smaller
>    problems.

I think Linux's increasing 'mainstream' profile, together with the
dreadful track record of many commercial companies, are increasingly
demolishing that argument.  It won't go away, but it will certainly change.

> 2. Since the taxpayers paid for its development (presumably for some
>    specific internal use, not just to be produced as a software
>    package), why shouldn't they get to use it if possible?

That's the US Govt view - others govts take the opposite view (make
people pay for it, so in theory the taxpayer recoups some costs).
The trouble with govt funding in either case is that most of it
goes to whoever has the slickest pointy-haired weasel and maybe the
best hospitality, rather than the best ideas and/or developers.

-- 
Nick Kew

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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:18:16 +0000
From: nick at webthing.com (Nick Kew)
Message-ID: <87ogq7.08.ln at jarl.webthing.com>
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Subject: Re: Free visualization software
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology,sci.geo.eos,sci.astro.fits
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> 	One other point to consider is that if someone, whether it was done in
> government or outside of it, has gone to the trouble to create some
> visualization software, it may be because no-one in the private sector
> has stepped up to the plate to create something like it yet.  No-one
> likes to reinvent the wheel - at least wise people don't - and for
> anyone to create something unnecessary is a real waste of time.

Me-too-ism?

I should say the opposite is the case, as evidenced by - above all else -
Microsoft, whose entire history is of buying or reinventing ideas at the
point where their commercial value is demonstrated and growing rapidly,
and marketing them.

Governments are different, but with them the bottom line is (still) that
the expertise required to secure govt. funding has absolutely nothing to
do with the expertise required to carry a project through, and it seems
rather unusual for the two to coincide (as evidenced by the track record
of dismal failures in public-sector projects).

Having said that, it looks from here as if the US govt has a better track
record (with the make-it-free-to-the-public philosophy) than ours.

> Clearly, there was/is a need for this kind of thing. 
> 	As far as the commercial software goes, I think many companies are
> seeing the writing on the wall. When IBM takes Data Explorer (DX), one
> of the slickest visualization packages around, and hands the source
> code over to the development community it tells me that something is
> going on...

A big name vendor can market their product, whether or not it has
anything to offer over someone else's.  Smaller/unknown developers
without sharp suits must offer somthing that's *visibly* unique.

Publicly funded developments up the ante, and make non-funded
innovation harder and riskier than in a free market.

Some years ago, my own first attempt at such a product happened to
coincide with the announcement of an EU-funded and marketed competitor.
Despite serious problems with their system, I couldn't hope to compete.
Basically it was an idea whose time had come, and some pointy-hair had
convinced them to fund it.

Once burned .. HyperLens avoids competing with the 'big boys' including
WebWinds, by offering capabilities that are a good deal more novel.
You would use it alongside - not instead of - your mainstream GIS,
and image processing software.  Now the difficulty is that people
get budgets for mainstream GIS and image processing, not for something
they've never heard of...

As for IBM, they have moved heavily into consultancy and support
(like offering commercial support for the free Apache webserver).
I guess releasing their own product is part of the same strategy.

-- 
Nick Kew

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Tue Aug 31 14:47:00 1999
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:00:29 GMT
From: elson at poboxes.com
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References: <37C2CE8E.E42A6EDD at magus.jpl.nasa.gov> <7qbe55$91l at journal.concentric.net> <slrn7sipd9.oep.fl_aggie at thepentagon.com>
Subject: Re: Free visualization software
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In article <slrn7sipd9.oep.fl_aggie at thepentagon.com>,
  fl_aggie at thepentagon.com (I R A Darth Aggie) wrote:
> On 29 Aug 1999 06:55:49 PDT, Spamfree
<Spamfree at DELETETHIS.spamfree.net>, in
> <7qbe55$91l at journal.concentric.net> wrote:
>
> + Beautiful.  Yet more commercial spam.
>
> Really? I thought it was free. Am I mistaken? have you filed a
complaint
> regarding misuse of a government computer to post commercial ads? do
you
> know what you speak of?
>
> I'm sorry, but that wasn't spam by any known metric.

>
> + But then again - what would you expect from a government employee?
>
> He took time from his schedule to alert us to a free,
meteorologically-
> oriented visualization package. It is an on-topic post for this group.
>
> Remain calm.
>
> James
>
> --
> Consulting Minister for Consultants, DNRC
> The Bill of Rights is paid in Responsibilities - Jean McGuire
> To cure your perl CGI problems, please look at:
> <url:http://www.perl.com/CPAN/doc/FAQs/cgi/idiots-guide.html>
>

Just thought I'd make a couple of comments. This is a response to many
of the posts, not just this one:

1) Our motivation is to make useful software for the scientific
community and the public. Our sponsors believe that software developed
with government funding should be provided at the lowest possible cost
to the public. We are able to do it for free.

2) There are many areas where government and the commercial sector
compete. Is government funding of social security unfair competition to
private pension plans? I though government agencies were lumbering
inefficient beasts. It ought to be easy for small startup companies to
run circles around the government labs.

3)We also compete for funding in the (often irrational) shrinking world
of government funding. In the commercial sector, customers vote with
their dollars. In our world, people take our software and disappear. It
is extremely difficult to convince our sponsors that we are perfoming a
useful function since we don't often hear from people who have
downloaded and used our software. If you visit our website, you'll see
we are genuinely interested in user input, both positive and negative.

-Just another anonymous software developer at a dotgov.

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