30 CFR Parts 58 and 72
RIN 1219-AB24

Measuring and Controlling
Asbestos Exposure
___________________________








          

  













Pages:    1 through 13

Place:    Spokane, Washington

Date:     May 14, 2002                          


		DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

		MINE SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION
     
     
     30 CFR Parts 58 and 72
     RIN 1219-AB24
     
     Measuring and Controlling
     Asbestos Exposure
     ___________________________
     
     
     
                             May 14, 2002
     
     
     
                                 - - -
     
     
     
         BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, Pursuant to the Virginia Rules
      
     of Civil Procedure, the hearing on Measuring and Controlling     

     Asbestos Exposure was taken before Marta M. Rice, a      

     Certified Shorthand Reporter, and a Notary Public for the     

     State of Washington, on May 14, 2002, commencing at the hour
     
     of 9:03 a.m., the proceedings being reported at The Days 
     
     Inn, 4212 Sunset Boulevard, Spokane, Washington.


                         P R O C E E D I N G S
                                                      (9:00 a.m.)

              MS. SMITH:  Good morning.  My name is Rebecca
     Smith.  I'm the Associate Director of the Mine Safety and
     Health Administration's, Office of Standards, Regulations,
     and Variances.  I will be the moderator for this public
     meeting today.

              On behalf of Dave Lauriski, the Assistant
     Secretary of Labor for Mine Safety and Health, I want to
     welcome you here today.

              Also here today are several other individuals from
     MSHA.  To my left, Dr. Carol Jones is our program manager
     for our health division for metal, nonmetal.  Wendy Hoch is
     from our technical support center.  Al Ducharme is from our
     solicitor's office.  On my right, Carlos Mosley is from our
     coal organization.  And Jim lynch is from MSHA's standards
     office.

              This is the second of seven public meetings. The
     first meeting was held on May the 2nd in Pittsburg,
     Pennsylvania.  The remaining meetings will be held on May
     16th in Vacaville, California; May 29th in Canton, New York;
     June 5th in Phoenix, Arizona; June 12th in Virginia,
     Minnesota; and, June 20th in Charlottesville, Virginia.

              The initial announcement of these meetings was
     contained in the Advanced Notice of Proposed Rule Making,
     published on March the 29th, 2002 in the Register.

              A subsequent Federal Register Notice published on
     April the 18th, announced that the date of the
     Charlottesville, Virginia meeting was changed to June 20th
     and a public meeting would be held in Phoenix, Arizona on
     June the 5th.  These two Federal Register Documents are
     available to you in the back of the room.

              The purpose of these meetings is to obtain
     information from the public that will help us evaluate the
     following five issues.

              Number one, whether to lower our asbestos
     permissible exposure limit.

              Number two, whether we should replace our existing
     fiber analysis method referred to as Phase Contrast
     Microscopy with a more sensitive method, which is
     Transmission Electron Microscopy.

              Number three, whether we should implement
     safeguards to limit take-home exposures.

              Number four, whether our field sampling methods
     are adequate and how our sampling results are being used.

              And number five, what is the likely benefit and
     cost impact of any rule making action we would take on these
     issues.

              These five issues were discussed in the March 29th
     Federal Register Document.  The scope of the issues we are
     addressing with this Advanced Notice of Proposed Rule Making
     is limited.  Therefore, this public meeting will be limited
     to hearing public input on the five issues I just mentioned.

              In the Advanced Notice of Proposed Rule Making, we
     asked several questions related to each of these five
     issues. And we're particularly interested in responses and
     information relating to the these questions.

              Now, I'd like to give you some background which
     has led us to be here today.  MSHA's current asbestos
     standard for coal mining and for metal and nonmetal mining
     is two fibers per cubic centimeter of air.  And these
     standards date from the mid-1970s.

              In 1980 we requested that the National Institute
     for Occupational Safety and Health, or NIOSH, investigate
     health problems at vermiculite operations around the
     country, because our sampling data at that time showed
     higher than average asbestos exposure among minors.

              The results of the NIOSH study were published in
     1986 and verified our sampling results that indicated high
     occupational exposure prior to 1974 at a vermiculite
     operation in Libby, Montana.

              The highest exposures were in the mill.  The NIOSH
     report showed that in 1974, the mine began to use a wet
     process to concentrate vermiculite in the mill, and
     occupational exposures dropped remarkably.

              The asbestos-exposed miners employed at the
     vermiculite mine in Libby, Montana; however, inadvertently
     carried asbestos fibers home on their clothes and in their
     personal vehicles, thereby continuing to expose themselves
     and family members.

              At that time, we had encouraged the operator to
     change from dry to wet processing of material and also to
     reduce take-home contamination by installing showers and
     requiring the miners to change clothing before leaving the
     site.

              In November of 1999, a Seattle newspaper published
     a series of articles about the unusually high incident of
     asbestos-related illnesses and fatalities among individuals
     who had lived in Libby, Montana.

              Because MSHA had jurisdiction over the mine, the
     Department of Labor's Office of the Inspector General began
     evaluation of MSHA's role at the Libby mine.  The findings
     and recommendations of the Office of the Inspector General
     was published in March of 2001.  Three of their
     recommendations would require additional rule making by
     MSHA, and those issues are the subject of this public
     meeting today.

              These Office of Inspector General recommendations
     were that MSHA lower the existing permissible exposure limit
     to a more protective level, that MSHA use a more sensitive
     method, Transmission Electron Microscopy, to quantify and
     identify fibers in our samples rather than the Phase
     Contrast Microscopy method currently used, and that MSHA
     address take-home contamination from asbestos.

              Recently, MSHA adopted new asbestos sampling
     techniques, and we have increased the scope of sampling from
     airborne asbestos fibers at mines in an attempt to better
     determine miners' exposures to levels of asbestos.

              Our efforts have included taking samples at all
     existing vermiculite, taconite, talc, and other mines to
     determine whether asbestos is present and at what levels.

              Since the spring of 2000, we have taken almost 900
     samples at more than 40 operations employing more than 4,000
     miners.  Our preliminary review and analysis of these
     samples showed that there are very few exposures occurring
     during the sampling period which were above the OSHA
     eight-hour timeline average of .1 fiber per cubic centimeter
     of air.

              The sampling results are now available to the
     public on our web site at www.msha.Gov.  Also, the sampling
     results will be made part of the rule-making record, if we
     move forward.

              The issues surrounding asbestos exposure are
     important to MSHA, and we will use the public meetings to
     help decide how best to proceed to address these five
     issues. So we want to hear the public view.

              These meetings will give mine operators, miners,
     and their representatives, and other interested parties an
     opportunity to present their views on these five issues that
     we are considering for potential rule-making action.

              The format of this meeting will be as follows:
     formal rules of evidence will not apply, and this meeting
     will be conducted in an informal manner.  Those of you who
     have notified us in advance of your intent to speak or have
     signed up today to speak, will make your presentations
     first. After all scheduled speakers have finished, others
     can request to speak.  When the last speaker is finished, we
     will conclude this public meeting.

              If you wish to present any written statements or
     information today, please clearly identify your material,
     and when you give it to us, we will identify it so for the
     record.

              You may also submit comments following the
     meeting. And please submit those to us by June 27th, which
     is the close of the comment period.  Comments may be
     submitted to us by electronic mail, fax, or regular mail.

              Please note that our headquarters in Arlington,
     Virginia will be moving on June the 10th, and therefor we
     have new address, telephone, and fax information. And that
     new information is also available to you in the back of the
     room.

              A verbatim transcript of this public meeting will
     be available upon request.  If you want a personal copy, you
     may make arrangements with the court reporter, or you may
     view it on our web site.  It will be posted there within
     five days of the close of this public meeting.  The
     procedures will be the same for each of the other public
     meetings.

              We will begin with persons who have requested to
     speak.  And to assure that we obtain an accurate record,
     when you speak, please begin by clearly stating your name
     and organization for the record.  Our first speaker this
     morning is Judy Olson.  Judy.

              MS. OLSON:  Good morning.  My name is Judy Olson. 
     I'm the Eastern Washington Director for U.S. Senator Patty
     Murray here in the Spokane office.  And I'd like to thank
     you for holding this hearing here in Spokane. We very much
     appreciate it.  This morning I have some comments that I
     would like to make on behalf of Senator Murray.

              Senator Murray is very concerned about what has
     happened in Libby, Montana.  This issue resonates for people
     here in Spokane for a couple of reasons.  The first is that
     a lot of people from Libby have moved here and have received
     medical care in this community.  Libby is only 160 miles
     from Spokane.

              Second, during the 1950s and 1960s, Vermiculite
     Northwest Incorporated had a plant here in Spokane which
     processed vermiculite from Libby.

              Last summer Senator Murray held a hearing on
     Asbestos and Workplace Safety in the Senate Health Education
     Labor and Pension or HELP Committee.  Dr. Alan Whitehouse, a
     chest physician and pulmonologist, from Spokane testified at
     this hearing in Washington, D.C.

              He has treated approximately 400 people from Libby
     in varying -- with varying degrees of lung damage caused by
     exposure to asbestos.  Approximately 25 percent of his
     patients never worked for or had a family member who worked
     for W.R. Grace.  Their only exposure to asbestos in Libby
     was environmental.  Five of his patients who were exposed
     only to asbestos in the environment have died.

              Senator Murray hopes that MSHA will -- is making
     asbestos and other harmful mineral fiber exposures at mines
     throughout the country a very high priority.  Senator Murray
     is glad that you are holding these public meetings, but
     hopes that the agency will follow up with rule making in a
     reasonable time frame, hopefully by the end of the year.

              Like so many others, Senator Murray is struggling
     to understand how Libby could have happened, despite all of
     the laws and regulations already in place to protect miners
     and workers.

              She strongly supports implementing as soon as
     possible the recommendations made by the Department of
     Labor's Inspector General well over a year ago.

              Lowering MSHA's permissible exposure limit for
     asbestos to match OSHA's.  Currently, the limit is 20 times
     that -- 20 times weaker -- excuse me.  Currently, MSHA's
     limit is 20 times weaker than -- this doesn't make sense.
     Somebody else wrote it.  Anyway, it refers to the limits on
     -- of centimeters per cubic centimeter of fiber.  Use more
     precise methods to measure asbestos and to address the
     take-home contamination from asbestos.
 
             Senator Murray believes that implementing the
     Inspector General's recommendations is an important first
     step in strengthening the protection of miners, their
     families, and surrounding communities.

              She hopes that MSHA will consider expanding its
     review to include the nonregulated asbestos minerals such
     as, winchite and richterite and nonasbestos from a variety
     of regulated forms.  These other forms have also been found
     in Libby.

              It may be that our current regulatory framework
     doesn't protect people well enough because of the narrow
     definition of asbestos currently in place.

	      The name of the mineral is far less important than
     whether there is evidence suggesting fibers of certain
     dimensions pose threats to human health.
 
              Senator Murray will submit a more detailed written
     comment for the record.  Senator Murray is currently working
     on legislation to ban asbestos in consumer products.  The
     bill will make it illegal by 2005 to deliberately or
     knowingly produce products containing asbestos, the six
     currently regulated forms.
 
             The bill also requires EPA to create a blue ribbon
     panel within -- from MSHA, NIOSH, and OSHA to provide
     recommendations on asbestos and currently nonregulated
     minerals.

              Senator Murray's hoping to introduce the bill in
     the next couple of weeks.  If anyone would like more
     information about Senator Murray's work on asbestos, they
     can visit her web site at www.murray.senate.gov.  The site
     provides a link to the Health Education Pensions Committee.

              If you have any specific questions about the draft
     legislation, anyone should contact Anna Knudson, Senator
     Murray's legislative assistant, at 202-224-2621.

              Thank you very much for providing this opportunity
     for Senator Murray to present her comments.  Thank you.

              MS. SMITH:  Thank you, Ms. Olson.  Could you spell
     Ms. Knudson's last name for us.

              MS. OLSON:  Yes, I will.  Anna Knudson,
     K-n-u-d-s-o-n.

              MS. SMITH:  Thank you.  Before you leave, Ms.
     Olson, do any of the panel members have any questions for
     Ms. Olson?  Thank you, very much.

              MS. OLSON:  Thank you again.  And the Senator will
     be providing written comments.

              MS. SMITH:  Thank you, very much.  At this time,
     we do not have any other speakers who have indicated an
     interest in presenting information.  So we will go off the
     record at this point, and we will remain.  And if we do have
     other speakers come in, we will go back on the record at
     that time.  Thank you.

              (Recess.)

              MS. SMITH:  We're going to go back on the record
     for just a second.  It's 10 o'clock.  We don't have any
     other speakers signed up as yet.  What we'll do is, we'll
     stay until 11 o'clock.  If we have no other speakers by 11
     o'clock, we'll close the record officially.  So we'll go
     back off the record now.

	(Recess.)

              MS. SMITH:  We're back on the record.  It's 11
     o'clock.  We have no further speakers indicating an interest
     to present information, so we're going to officially close
     the record on this public meeting.  Thank you.
  
	(Whereupon, the hearing concluded at 11:03 a.m.)
//                        REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
     
     DOCKET NO.:        N/A
     CASE TITLE:        Measuring and Controlling Asbestos Exposure
     HEARING DATE:      May 14, 2002
     LOCATION: Spokane, Washington
     
         I hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence are
     contained fully and accurately on the tapes and notes
     reported by me at the hearing in the above case before the
     Department of Labor, Mine Safety and Health Administration.
     
     
                        Date:  May 14, 2002
     
			Marta M. Rice     
                        Official Reporter
                        Heritage Reporting Corporation
                        Suite 600
                        1220 L Street, N. W.
                        Washington, D. C.  20005-4018