Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:27:55 EST
Subject: Fwd: [FRCtech2002] Digest Number 45

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: RE: Extra Supplies
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      2. RE: speed control
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      3. Rules questioning
           From: "horkdoom" <horkdoom@hotmail.com>
      4. Re: Rules questioning
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      5. Re: Digest Number 44
           From: lewis.sussman@dartmouth.edu
      6. battery
           From: "icejake40" <icejake40@yahoo.com>
      7. No Robot Bill of Materials for 2002
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      8. Re: battery
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      9. Re: battery
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     10. Re: DB15 connectors
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     11. Helium Baloons
           From: "dubyaspretzel" <dubyaspretzel@yahoo.com>
     12. Re: Helium Baloons
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     13. Battery Charger
           From: "Danny L Levine" <danny.levine@zimmer.com>
     14. Re: Battery Charger
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     15. Modification to spike relay
           From: "concerodz" <CRODRIG3@CRDUS.JNJ.COM>
     16. Pneumatic cylinders as storage devices???
           From: "rageowner" <ragabash01@hotmail.com>
     17. Re: Modification to spike relay
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     18. On International Shipping
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     19. Regulators
           From: "sot507" <iteach@lunabeads.com>
     20. Urgent/ fuses
           From: "north66203" <north66203@yahoo.com>
     21. Re: Regulators
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     22. Re: Urgent/ fuses
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     23. Carpet
           From: K K <kwiens1@yahoo.com>
     24. Re: Carpet
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     25. Goal Detail
           From: "pbyerly1951" <psb@ycs.k12.pa.us>


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:51:17 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Extra Supplies

>would spare parts be along the lines of extra supplies?? 
>  
>frcengineers wrote: 
>
>Do we have to send our tools and extra supplies with the robot or 
>can we take them to the regional ourselves. 
>A)  You may take them to the regional yourself. 


A)  From team update 6 and message 767, You will have to ship all 
the spare parts after the 6 weeks build period, to make sure teams 
stop building after the time limit.  For the first regional your 
team attend, you may not bring any spart parts you build after 6-
weeks.  So, Extra supplies mean hand tools, raw material, fasteners, 
and other things you need in the Pit area.

After the first regional, however, you may bring to the next 
competition the spare/new parts you manufactured between right after 
regional and the Wednesday midnight following that weekend (about 4 
days) along with the extra supplies.  

-FIRST KL





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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:05:35 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: speed control

> >How can we modify the default program to slow our motor down?

A) yes.  Please contact www.innovationfirst.com for more information
on how this is done.
 
-FIRST KL


From: ddckeysrcblt@aol.com 
Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 1:57am 
Subject: Re: RE: speed control 

Obviously, this doesn't make a huge amount of sense.  I'll attempt 
to fill in the information gap :)  In the default program (the one-
stick version, anyway) there should be a few variables named PWM1, 
PWM2, etc.  You may have to add more for use with PWM outputs that 
are currently directly associated with an analog input.  Look at the 
SEROUT statement near the bottom of the main loop in the default 
program.  There is a version that is commented out which gives you 
the correct order.  Find the variable that is being sent out on the 
PWM you want to slow down and replace it with your newly created 
PWMx variable.  Somewhere above this in your code, you'll want to 
set PWMx to values based off the input you want (for example, p1_x) 
that scales it back so it isn't full speed.  When you set PWMx = 
255, it will be full ahead, PWMx = 0 is full reverse, and PWMx = 127 
is stop.  Values in between these will produce partial speeds.  The 
same values go for the analog inputs.  Here's some code that 
(hopefully; it's untested) will cut your motor speed by half, using 
PWM1 and p1_x as example variables:

PWM1 = (127 + p1_x) / 2

If you want to scale by more or less than a half, it gets much more 
complicated.  This one will let you scale by any fraction, but it's 
bigger:

Numerator con 1
Denominator con 2

if p1_x > 127 then GreaterThan127 ' to prevent negative numbers
PWM1 = 127 - ((Numerator * (127 - p1_x)) / Denominator)
goto EndDriveScale

GreaterThan127:
PWM1 = 127 + ((Numerator * (p1_x - 127)) / Denominator)

EndDriveScale:
' continue the rest of your code

I hope this helps your problem.  If it doesn't, email me with more 
details and I'll see what I can do.  Reading the Innovation First 
manual and the comments in the default program will probably shed 
more light on what my code is doing than I have already told you.  
I'm afraid I'm not too good at translating back from geekese ;)  
Good luck.






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Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 02:30:49 -0000
   From: "horkdoom" <horkdoom@hotmail.com>
Subject: Rules questioning

Recently we have come up with the concept of using a sort of net or 
sack to trap balls. Then after trapping a certain amount putting that 
sack into the goal and most likely detaching it from the robot.

I have not found a ruling in the rulebook saying that is illegal 
(though i admit i didnt look that closely). I talked to my team 
leaders and they said it would most likely be a judgement call, but 
advised me to ask the question here, where I could get an official 
ruling.

Would it be inside the rules for us to detach that sack or net with 
balls in it from our robot (inside the goal), and not be disqualified 
and still have the balls count for points?

Sincerely,
--Michael V.
  Creston High School
  Grand Rapids, MI




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Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:36:54 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Rules questioning

> Recently we have come up with the concept of using a sort of net or 
> sack to trap balls. Then after trapping a certain amount putting 
that 
> sack into the goal and most likely detaching it from the robot.
> 
> I have not found a ruling in the rulebook saying that is illegal 
> (though i admit i didnt look that closely). I talked to my team 
> leaders and they said it would most likely be a judgement call, but 
> advised me to ask the question here, where I could get an official 
> ruling.
> 
> Would it be inside the rules for us to detach that sack or net with 
> balls in it from our robot (inside the goal), and not be 
disqualified and still have the balls count for points?

A) No this is not allowed.  Please refer to Rule DQ7.

first-t





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Message: 5
   Date: 14 Feb 2002 09:33:28 EST
   From: lewis.sussman@dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: Digest Number 44

Please clarify this ruling:

--- You wrote:
Message: 9
   Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:14:57 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Operator controls.

> Is  it ok if we use one of the black plastic boxes that FIRST 
> provided us for the operator controls from the previous years for 
> our operator control box this year?
> 
A) NO.  This is not allowed.  
first-t
--- end of quote ---

I checked the additional hardware list and it allows "project box, black,
almond or grey."  Small parts also sells boxes.  Are you saying we just can't
use last year's, (which would be in contradiction of your rule about spare
parts being ok as long as they are identical to this year's) or are we not
allowed to use any other than provided with the kit?
-Lew Sussman
Team 95



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Message: 6
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:58:29 -0000
   From: "icejake40" <icejake40@yahoo.com>
Subject: battery

Can we add some handholds to the plastic on the top part of the 
battery?




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Message: 7
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:47:43 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: No Robot Bill of Materials for 2002

Contrary to the manual and other communications we may have made, 
FIRST is not requiring, or even asking, teams to submit a Robot Bill 
of Materials for 2002. Apologies for any confusion around this.

(To pre-empt an anticipated question, they won't be used for anything 
anywhere in the Competition. It would be a waste of teams' time to 
submit one.)

-FIRST MW




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Message: 8
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:55:03 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: battery

> Can we add some handholds to the plastic on the top part of the 
> battery?

A) No.  This would be an unsafe practice.  Chemically altering the 
battery is not allowed, however you could make a holder around the 
battery (such as velcro straps, latex tubing, etc.) as long as it is 
not glued to the battery. 

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 9
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:09:23 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: battery

Can we add some handholds to the plastic on the top part of 
the battery?

A) No. This would be an unsafe practice. Chemically altering the 
battery is not allowed, however you could make a holder around the
battery (such as velcro straps, latex tubing, etc.) as long as it
is not glued to the battery. 

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 10
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:14:30 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: DB15 connectors

                1) We're having trouble finding enough DB15 male and 
female solder
                pots that are in 2 rows instead of 3. We're wondering 
if it would be
                allowable to cut come of the DB15 cables included in 
the kit from
                this and past years and mount a small terminal block 
inside the
                operator control box so we can easily attach switches 
and pots.

Yes, that is allowed.

                2) Also, since we're running out of digital inputs and 
we still need
                to mount more switches can we have a pot inside the 
box set to some
                value and use a drop of hot glue to secure it after 
wiring an
                interrupt switch inline to one of the analog channels, 
since we're
                not allowed to use a simple resistor, or are we?

Yes, you may wire a switch in series with a potentiometer.  Resistors 
are not allowed except in the custom circuit board.  The difference is 
simply that resistors are not an allowed component, even though a 
potentiometer gives the same effect.  Just get a circuit board pot 
that can't be easily uncalibrated.


                3) The LED pins on the joystick ports seem to be the 
same pins as for
                the 2 auxiliary digital lines per port. I remember 
reading that you
                can set the LED pins to input or output, so I assume 
that's exactly
                what they are. Is that correct or am I missing 
something?

No.  The LED pins are outputs only.  Joystick ports 1 & 3 have the LED 
outputs while ports 2 & 4 have extra inputs.

                4) Going back to the resource problems, would it be 
possible to
                somehow multiplex the digital lines beyond using 
double-pull/double-
                throw switches?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, so here's an attempt to answer 
your question.

Although it is allowed, there is no point in wiring a switch to 
multiple inputs, because that just wastes inputs.  If you want a 
single switch to activate multiple output devices, just reprogram the 
Robot Controller or use a PWM/Relay Y-adapter to send one output 
signal to two devices.

If you want multiple switches to connect to one switch input, so that 
the switches are configured in series (i.e. all must be closed to be 
true) or parallel (any must be closed to be true), or combinations of 
serial and parallel, it is ok.

Theoretically, you could attempt to multiplex a group of switches to 
an single analog input by using a set of switches each in series with 
a potentiometer set at a different value (e.g. pot1=10Kohm, 
pot2=20Kohm, pot3=40Kohm, etc.), but this would be tricky and prone to 
erroneous readings if not calibrated very carefully.

FIRST ER




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Message: 11
   Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:47:25 -0000
   From: "dubyaspretzel" <dubyaspretzel@yahoo.com>
Subject: Helium Baloons

Are helium baloons (with the goal of reducing weight) permissable
(a)as non-functional decorations (as they will not affect the outcome 
of the match)?
(b)as part of the bumper (as the bumber is exempted from admissable 
parts rules)?




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Message: 12
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:38:52 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Helium Baloons

> Are helium baloons (with the goal of reducing weight) permissable
> (a)as non-functional decorations (as they will not affect the 

outcome 
> of the match)?


A) Helium balloons are allowed as non-function decorations on robots, 
however you may not use them to reduce the weight of your robot.
(i.e. something used to reduce weight has a function, please reread 
rule M9).
Also you are constrained by the starting volume of the robot (see rule 
M2).  


> (b)as part of the bumper (as the bumber is exempted from admissable 
> parts rules)?

A) Yes.  Please see rule M18 on guidelines for the bumper, any bumper 
(balloon made or otherwise) should abide by rule M18.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 13
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:32:40 -0500
   From: "Danny L Levine" <danny.levine@zimmer.com>
Subject: Battery Charger

Frcengineers:

Rule C20 states that only the battery charger supplied or one with equivalent
specifications may be used.

The charger manual indicates an output of 1 Amp hour, less than the battery's
capacity.  We have some level of concern that this may be inadequate for
recharging during a match.

Is it legitimate to use a charger of our own as long as its' output does not
exceed
battery specifications?  [For example, we have a charger that can output 2 Ah
in trickle charge mode or 10 Ah in quick charge mode.]

Dan Levine
Team 135

--
Danny L. Levine, Ph.D., P.E.
Zimmer, Inc. - Warsaw, Indiana, USA
mailto:danny.levine@zimmer.com
http://www.zimmer.com





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Message: 14
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:07:00 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Charger

> Frcengineers:
> 
> Rule C20 states that only the battery charger supplied or one with 
equivalent
> specifications may be used.
> 
> The charger manual indicates an output of 1 Amp hour, less than the 
battery's
> capacity.  We have some level of concern that this may be inadequate 
for
> recharging during a match.
> 
> Is it legitimate to use a charger of our own as long as its' output 
does not
> exceed
> battery specifications?  [For example, we have a charger that can 
output 2 Ah
> in trickle charge mode or 10 Ah in quick charge mode.]

A) You may not use that charger.  See rule C20.  You may use another 
charger that does not exceed the specifications of this years charger. 
 Please note that teams will be allowed to recharge their batteries in 
the Pits overnight.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 15
   Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:03:45 -0000
   From: "concerodz" <CRODRIG3@CRDUS.JNJ.COM>
Subject: Modification to spike relay

Panicked by blowing fuses, we are resorting to the modification of 
spike relay.

We contacted Innovation First to find out if substituting the fast 
blow fuse with a 20 amp circuit breaker in the spike relay was an 
acceptable modification to their design. They informed it was OK, but 
also told us to contact USFIRST and find out if it was allowed.  

- Fast Blow Fuse to a Circuit Breaker. - 

-Is substituting the fast blow fuse with a 20 amp circuit breaker in 
the spike relay allowed?

"It would be one of the circuit breakers provided in the kit from the 
electrical distribution panel."

Please Promptly Reply.






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Message: 16
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:24:31 -0000
   From: "rageowner" <ragabash01@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pneumatic cylinders as storage devices???

I have not yet seen an answer to my question regarding how many 
cylinders may be used- the kit of parts included 2 accumulators. Our 
robot uses both accumulators and 5 pneumatic "rod actuators" for a 
total of 7 cylinders. Previous posts have settled on a total of five 
cylinders- does this INCLUDE 2 accumulators or doesn't it??? This is 
getting kind of late in the game to not have an answer!!

ALSO- Is it OK to use standard industrial 30MM momentary-contact 
normally open pushbuttons in our operator interface? We don't want a 
third joystick just for buttons. I am speaking of common industrial 
buttons, IE: Allen-Bradley, Fuji, Cutler-Hammer, Square-D, etc. I 
plan to make a metal "C" bracket to hold the buttons- is this OK or 
do we need an enclosure?

ALSO- Are 12VDC Auto alarm sirens considered nonfunctional decorative 
devices? The team mentioned a "cop car" theme using the blue beacon 
cover.

ALSO- May we use stainless steel spring antenna stock (wire rod) as a 
limit switch actuator or curb feeler?

Thanks to a lot of last minute ???'s 

RAGErobotics
(team 872 advisor)




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Message: 17
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:45:25 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Modification to spike relay

> Panicked by blowing fuses, we are resorting to the modification of 
> spike relay.
> 
> We contacted Innovation First to find out if substituting the fast 
> blow fuse with a 20 amp circuit breaker in the spike relay was an 
> acceptable modification to their design. They informed it was OK, 
but 
> also told us to contact USFIRST and find out if it was allowed.  
> 
> - Fast Blow Fuse to a Circuit Breaker. - 
> 
> -Is substituting the fast blow fuse with a 20 amp circuit breaker in 
> the spike relay allowed?
> 
> "It would be one of the circuit breakers provided in the kit from 
the 
> electrical distribution panel."
> 
> Please Promptly Reply.

A) Yes, 20 amp circuit breaker can be a substitute for the fast blow 
fuse provided in the Spike relay.
first-t




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Message: 18
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:20:46 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: On International Shipping

Q: We are driving our robot to the first drayage.  After the 
competition we will be giving the drayage company our completed Fed Ex 
Airbill.
My question is will Fed Ex take the shipment to Toronto for us?  This
would be an international shipment and I need to know if we can use
the airbill they gave us for international shipments, or do I need an
International WayBill?  Do I need to do additional paperwork for
custom purposes.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks.

A: You can use FedEx to ship to Toronto, but you must get an 
International Weighbill and fill it in correctly.  Use the account 
number on your present weighbill.  Remember to check the correct box 
for freight.  All USA teams going to Canada will be receiving 
instructions about customs by Friday afternoon, UPS 2-day delivery.  
If you have questions, there is a phone number highlighted on the 
colored sheet.

FIRST TM



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Message: 19
   Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 14:05:54 -0000
   From: "sot507" <iteach@lunabeads.com>
Subject: Regulators

Are we required to use both regulators supplied with the pneumatics 
kit?




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Message: 20
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:27:30 -0000
   From: "north66203" <north66203@yahoo.com>
Subject: Urgent/ fuses

Is there a specific fuse we have to use on the buss panel??




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Message: 21
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:32:11 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Regulators

> Are we required to use both regulators supplied with the pneumatics 
> kit?

A) No, the Monnier regulator does not have to be used, the Norgren 
regulator must be used.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 22
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:41:59 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Urgent/ fuses

> Is there a specific fuse we have to use on the buss panel??

A) See the kit of parts in Team Update #1 for the listed Circuit 
breakers listed.  These are the only ones you should use.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 23
   Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:50:51 -0800 (PST)
   From: K K <kwiens1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Carpet

Can we used the carpet used for the competition floor
(S.S. Mills, Inc.) on our robot?  

=====
=========================
"Frog Blast the Vent Core!"
=========================

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



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Message: 24
   Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:09:06 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Carpet

> Can we used the carpet used for the competition floor
> (S.S. Mills, Inc.) on our robot?  

A) Only as a non-functinoal decoration (see rule M9) or as part of a 
bumper (see rule M18).

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 25
   Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 19:59:15 -0000
   From: "pbyerly1951" <psb@ycs.k12.pa.us>
Subject: Goal Detail

We are testing several goal latches and need to know whether the upper
deck pipe flange bolts are inserted with the head up or down?




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