**This person interviewed is NOT Peter Pettus as labeled on the
paperwork.-- CD1 of Peter Pettus -- this is a different person -- This
name sounds like "Scottsby" \-- Production Transcripts**

**Q:** We can pick any moment that we want to pick in terms of beginning
with this. One of the things that -- I'm just gonna warm us up a little
bit. When we were outside talking, you expressed a profound love for the
people of Lowndes County --

**Scottsby:** Uh mmm.

Q: The folks that you ran into down here when you were working with
SNCC, what kind of people here -- talk to me about the kinds of folk
that are here that you ran into when you were working here?

**Scottsby:** It was the spirit. I dedicate this, uhm- discussion to
those in Lowndes County who have a certain spirit, a historical spirit,
based on the fact of how they relate to Africa.

Q: Okay, let's start again. Now, as we --

\<crew talk\>

Q: What I've asked you. Sometimes if you start, you know, they don't
know what the subject of this thing is. So, if somehow or another,
factor a portion of my question into your answer. Like, if I said,
"Well, describe to me the beautiful, wonderful people of Lowndes
County?" you might just start by saying, "Well, you know, I ran into the
people of Lowndes County when I came down here --" so we know what we're
talking about and who we're talking about.

**Scottsby:** Okay.

Q: And try to avoid going off on excursions?

**Scottsby:** Okay.

Q: So that makes you really focused and tight, but you can emote, you
can relate, you can smile, you can do anything you want to do; and I'll
sit here and I'll be nodding like a dumb monkey because I don't want to
say anything -- the microphones are very sensitive and they'll pick up
my voice and they shouldn't hear it, okay?

**Scottsby:** Uh huh.

Q: So let's talk about Lowndes County because the key thing to this film
will be the people, the description, the impressions of the people.
Those are the people who fought for voting rights, it was the people who
-- so, you know, talk to me about these folk that you encountered. Any
time you want to tell me a little story about a particular person,
whether you name that person or not, that exemplified an idea that you
had, let it rip. Are we still rolling? Go.

**Scottsby:** Well, the people in Lowndes County, the spirit is what got
me. I met them in a church, at Mount Gilliard Baptist Church, during the
time after Viola Liuzzo was killed.

Q: Okay, let's start one more time. Now I know this is a little
frustrating -- I won't do this except at the beginning of this. You're
squinting your eyes, squinting your eyes at me as you started to grab a
thought. Some people look up at the sky, some people look at the ground;
everybody has their kind of technique of reaching for a thought and
grabbing it. Stay focused on me. If you see me do this with my finger --

**Scottsby:** Stay focused!

Q: Stay focused on me, you know, and try and keep your eyes open --
otherwise people will say, "Why is he squinting? \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
putting too much light on."

**Scottsby:** Okay, I'm okay.

Q: Go for it.

**Scottsby:** Uhm- it was the people in Lowndes County. It was their
spirit. When I met them in a mass media, at a church at Mungilly \[ph?\]
Baptist Church. We went there with Stokely and, uhm- all the members of
SNCC, and also, uhm- those at SCLC, and in this church I was looking at
the audience, those were there, they were willing to accept us, and I
was amazed at the large amount of crowd of people that were there. They
had a- a certain kind of expression on their faces. Now, that- that's
what got me, and their expression was, they were strong. They weren't
fearful and holding their heads down, or looking up at the ceiling; they
were looking at us as to what they want us to do, what they want to do
themselves, by us telling which way to go. It was Matthew Jackson.
Matthew Jackson was the main family in Lowndes County, and Matthew was
so proud for us to be there and show people what they could do
themselves, with themselves, for a concern that we haven't the right to
vote. But Matthew was started speaking, and he introduced us. I looked
around in the crowd of people there, and what I -- there was something
unique about these people. What it was I didn't understand what it was,
but I found out later on it was based on the Southern heritage of being
proud of being black, of having the heritage of coming from Africa. When
you look at the history of the Lowndes County, those that are there, the
names, you realize that a large number of them come from slave families
in the plantations. That's how they got their last names, because when
you signed your name in the Freedom Bureau, you had to use the last name
also, and the \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ of plantation they worked on as a last
name. So they carried that over, and I was so happy that I found some
people who were so proud of themselves and not humble that I said, "I
must stay here and be with them all the way." And I have.

Q: Now, this idea, this image of black people as being strong or proud,
or strength, of independence, it really kind of, in those days, cut
against the prevailing wisdom.

**Scottsby:** Yes.

Q: Against everything we have.

**Scottsby:** Oh yes.

Q: So the rest --

**Scottsby:** They weren't humble; they wouldn't back off. They would
say, "We- we're gonna go forward; we could go together and go forward."
In Lowndes County, when they decide to move, they will move. They will
move heaven and earth once they decide to go ahead and go. But until
then, they- they- they- they'll wait; they'll hold back and watch. But
when they decide to go, you can't stop them.

Q: Tell me --

\<crew talk\>

Q: So how did you get here? Tell me a little bit about yourself. I don't
want to know your whole biography; I want a capsule. Tell me how you got
here and why you came?

**Scottsby:** It was a- it was a phone call from the Chicago SNCC Office
in New York -- in Chicago. They called for volunteers to come to- to
Selma, and asked me would I come to Selma, and I was working in the
Chicago Playboy Club at that time. And I got the phone call, I thought
about it, I said, "Okay." King's calling for volunteers, I guess I'll
go. So I just up and just packed my bags, and took off based on the- on
the fact of the march going down, after Bloody Sunday. And then, when I
got here, that's when I joined those in SNCC \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ asking me to
join them in Mississippi, and I joined them here in- in Selma.

Q: Had you ever been south before?

**Scottsby:** Yes, I was stationed in the south, in Louisiana.

Q: Okay. Well, now, start over and give me a full sentence -- "Yeah, I
had been in the south once before" or something like that. Go ahead.

**Scottsby:** Uhm- I had been in the south before, uhm- when I was
stationed in the Air Force in Louisiana. I was in a Air Force base -- in
the Air Force base at- in Louisiana. I was stationed there. Then I went
to Kent in Mississippi as a volunteer back in '63 and '64 before Cheney
\[ph?\] and some other guy get that wiped out. I was down here then.

Q: So, the behavior, the attitude, the perspective of a white focus on
all of this, none of this was new to you?

**Scottsby:** No. I- I- I learned more about it, about how- how it was
controlled and how it was done, after being down here, because I was
northern raised and northern born. I didn't have any idea about certain
mores that you didn't therefore cross and certain things you didn't
normally do because you were a black man. You didn't look at a- a -- at
a white woman too long, because if you did, you caused them, uhm- mainly
white person, to get angry at you because you were looking too long at a
white woman. And I- I- I learned these things in Louisiana; then when I
came back to- to Kent and Mississippi, uhm- I found out about how the
black people were being treated, with- with corps -- and I became a
volunteer.

Q: Then when you got to Selma, it was like you were ready to rock and
roll, huh?

**Scottsby:** When I got to Selma, I was ready to- willing to
participate and be involved in what was going on concerning the march,
but when I got to Lowndes County, that's when my soul got into it.
That's when I say, "Okay, this is what I'm gonna rock and roll with.
These people are win- willing to go, and they- they wouldn't be
stopped." And- but to organize them was very difficult, because he had
the problem of Uncle Tom and the "nervous Nellies", and then when you go
to certain people's houses, and they will see you coming, they will run
out the back door from you, knowing that you're gonna be talking about
voter registration and for them to exert themselves in a humane basis of
being equal to the white peoples there in town, they had them under
control -- economical control, and also the use of fear -- the fear of
violence, the fear of getting their homes shot into, the fear of their-
their cow being poisoned, the fear -- the main thing was their dogs. In
the country, if you kill a person's dog, that person does not have any
way of being alerted that you're out there after them. So when the dogs
start getting- getting killed, and the dogs being poisoned, the people
knew that something was wrong and somebody was coming after them.
Whereas if the use of high fear is permeated, is how the fears can't be
used against them to psychologically mould them into a certain kind of
human being where they're always cringing, they've always got their
heads down, they're always being humble. Folks in Lowndes County would
be humble and smile and be all nice and congenial, and then get behind
somebody's back and go down to the courthouse and try to register, or go
to the mass meetings. And that's what- what got me was at the mass
meetings. The mass meetings -- the mass meetings, uhm- we had two mass
meetings that- that it became so popular, because they didn't have
anything going on in the county themselves from their own social point
of view doing things. They could get together easy at a mass meeting and
meet one another and talk about what's going on or what big deal we're
gonna try to do, and listen when we had the sale by going to the
courthouse, and- but they weren't allowed to go to the courthouse with
the rest of the people. They were asked to go to the jail. The jail in
Lowndes County was a jail that was used as a form of intimidation,
because a lot of black men were going to a jail, and the- the jail man
hangs you -- they would not come out alive, or would come out alive but
never seen again. They got a private graveyard down at there. They would
put people- the bodies in there in those graveyards where nobody would
ever find them later on. That's in \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ of
the day. If they tried to look up where graves are, they couldn't find
them. Stokely did get a good hunch of where the graves are located and
how they buried people. They told me about how they used bulldozers and
stuff like that to bury the bodies, but, uhm- you could never find them.
But even if you had a good idea where they were located at, but --

Q: Let me just say this, though. I hear you clearly, and I know you want
to go on to another thought. Maybe I'm a kid, 17, 18 today, and I come
here and I see this film and I'm listening to you, and somebody might
say, "Yeah, old Scottsby, he has a vivid imagination; he's
exaggerating." A lot of kids don't believe this stuff today. What would
you say to them?

**Scottsby:** I would tell them that --

Q: Well now, who is the "them" we're talking about here?

**Scottsby:** To the children, the young black children, also young
white children. It's easy to therefore criticize or try to figure out a
way of not seeking the truth, but the truth is there; all you have to do
is read about it; all you have to do is ask questions, and you will find
out the truth, once you find out what was actually going on down there.
But you got to reach the people to want to tell you the truth, that's
the thing about it. The Aunt Jennys and nervous Nellies and also the
Uncle Toms will always say why there were violence in a demonstration or
you did a certain thing. But the truth of the matter is, they only got
that from different ones that were involved themselves personally. Those
that I know of down here, I see them, they see me, "Hi, Scottsby, how
you doing?" We know each other because we trust each other, that's the
thing that SNCC has developed down here very seriously. But Stokely and
I and others, we worked together as- as a team; we worked on
consistently of getting the people to trust us. If I say I'm gonna be
here at 9 o'clock, I'm here at 10 minutes before nine. If I say I'm
gonna be here at 5 o'clock, I'm 10 minutes before 5 o'clock. I'm not at
6-30, colored folks time, I don't play colored folks time, I play
country folks time -- I'm here on time. And that's what you got to get
across to them, and once they got that, it was never no stopping them.
It- it was very difficult at the beginning, uhm- because of the number
of people that were shot at, the number of homes that were shot into,
uhm- the accidental \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ that happened, that didn't happen, on
the- on the highway. The oil was spread on the highway where a car
could- could be driving down the highway and- and try to make a turn,
and the oil slick that's laid out there would cause a- the car to over-
overturn. That happened to Matthew Jackson; he was killed there, he- by
the plan. They use- used oil on- on the -- on the highway that caused
his truck to overturn, and so you had to take those kind of chances. You
took them, with the understanding that you were doing something for your
people. As my grandmother told me, "Do something for my people", and
that's what I intended to do, and I haven't changed ever since.

Q: Cut. Excellent!

**Scottsby:** Oh, thank you!

\<crew talk\>

Q: Now, I've seen footage of people, not just only registering to vote
but also voting on a particular day way back in '65, '66 in Lowndes
County. Just back up just a second. How did this business about the
Lowndes County Freedom Party, it was called, or Lowndes County Freedom
--

**Scottsby:** Freedom Organization.

Q: Freedom Organization, and the Black Panther, tell me that story about
how all of that -- the reason I ask this question, I've got 16 zillion
different versions of this --

**Scottsby:** Okay.

Q: So, you were there, you know what the deal is; tell me how this
symbol, emblem of the Black Panther, how did that thing start?

**Scottsby:** Well, the most important thing was the fact that we were
talking about it in- in the- in the freedom house, that people were
willing to fight --

Q: Here again, the --

**Scottsby:** We.

Q: - audience doesn't know who or what it is we're talking about, so I
need this --

**Scottsby:** Right.

Q: - idea of voting, because wasn't it that there were emblems, there
were a lot of poor, ignorant, you know, illiterate people, and every
party had a symbol, right?

**Scottsby:** Okay, all right.

Q: The Democrats had the \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, so I'm guessing at,
that's one story I heard, but go ahead, you tell me your story.

**Scottsby:** What happened was those in the Sticks naf- staff were
talking about how the people were looking for a form to fight back.

Q: Okay, now I want people to hear this, and hear it clearly, so just
start gently again. You said "SNCC's staff" or "staff SNCC" --

**Scottsby:** Right.

Q: I want it to be clear because -- beginnings and endings, you know
what I mean? Go ahead, start again.

**Scottsby:** Those in the- on the Stick's- SNCC's staff --

Q: Stop. Do it again.

**Scottsby:** I'm sorry.

Q: It's okay.

**Scottsby:** Those on the SNCC's staff, such as Stokely, myself, Bob
Mants and Jimmy Rogers, we were discussing inside of the Freedom House,
the \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ kind of White Hall, how we seen that the
people were willing to fight back against the oppression that was coming
on to them concerning shooting back at those that shot at them. It
became a theme inside of SNCC as to how, what do we do when people's
houses that we ain't involved in, or in, were being shot at. What do we
do as individuals inside of SNCC? And that's where the theme came in it.
The theme that came in it was the fact of how they need to protect
themselves, and that's when they decided, we would go along with them to
fire back. If anyone shot at us, we would shoot back at them. That's
where the theme concerning self-defense came from. Now they used that
with the fact of the symbol of the black cat. In the south, as you know,
throughout the world a black cat has certain superstitious symbols
around the cat image itself -- being black, not being able to see it at
night besides the- the color of his eyes. Korten \[ph?\] and Cox brought
two symbols down from New York; they were drawn by Jennifer Larson. She
drew two symbols: one was a black cat and one was a clenched black fist.
We asked the people in a mass meeting which one of the symbols do they
like, that they could identify with. Everyone that was illiterate, that
could not identify with the symbol's writing would identify immediately
with the black cat. So we said, "Okay, when you swish \[ph?\] across the
cat's face with the leather and came back, you have voted." And they
understood they had done the most important thing of their lives, was
they had their right, and they did vote. By going across the cat's face
and laughing about it, and going back the other way, and then they knew
they had voted. So we decided to use the black cat as a symbol, plus
when you get a cat cornered in a corner, he will come out fighting, so
we and- understood that, and we used that in our mass meetings to
discuss with people, if they're cornered, to fight back, not back off --
to fight back. Fighting back means to use the shotgun or a gun. People
in Lowndes County begin to arm themselves immediately. At a mass
meeting, I pulled out a 38, and I told \_\_\_\_\_\_\_, "Here the power
of God right here, that I have in my right hand." And I laid it,
luckily, not on top of the Bible -- they thought I was going to -- but
on the side of the Bible, and telling them, "If you have to, use it. If
you don't have to, you still got it." They understood me and they- they
went- went crazy with the very fact that I had given them permission to
therefore defend themselves. This had never been done before. So once I
did that, Stokely took on- up on the theme himself, and then that's when
this whole thing about self-defense came down. The important thing was,
during the battle of Fort Deposit, the night that election went down,
the whites had jumped on a black man in Fort Deposit and beaten him. We
got the word from different ones in the community that the clan was
gonna come in. Those in SNCC, members of SNCC and supporters of SNCC in
Selma, came into Lowndes County in large numbers. We got in trucks, we
went to Fort Deposit armed, ready to defend the black community should
the clan came in. They never showed up! The FBI went crazy; the State
Police went \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ crazy about, "They
coming, they coming!" We said, "We ready for them." The clan never
showed up. Then we knew, and the people knew, that once they stood up
for themselves against the clan they had- they had the next step. And
that was to go ahead and keep voting. That's how it happened. But the
story was never told because nothing happened that night. But we knew
what happened. Jamal was there; Rap was there; Terry Kendell \[ph?\] was
there; Mark Clifford \[ph?\] was there; a lot -- Jimmy Rogers was there;
we were all armed, and ready waiting for the clan, hoping the clan would
come here so we could take them on. They never showed up.

Q: Got it. Good -- that's a good story.

**Scottsby:** Well it's true. But \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ got me was that John
Lewis and Jim Foreman \[ph?\] didn't understand that those of- of us out
in the field were getting hammered consistently with the very fact we
had to fight against that fear. They never understood that. They- they
would go make speeches, but when they- they go out in the field with us,
they understood how the people were reacting, that's what got us close
on the other \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ and everything, and getting sick the way
they were, because they were trying to go along with King's theory about
non-violence. And that did- that only went to a certain point, it was a
tactic to be used, but not a strategy to use all- all your life. And you
could not get across to them the- the- the rednecks down here
\_\_\_\_\_\_ they only use violence all the time they wanted to because
they throw their right to beat- to beat a slave, a ex-slave. That was
their right. But when us slaves had no fun when the rabbit \[ph?\] got
the gun. When the rabbit got the gun, that's when it's no- no fun. And
they understood that. That's the theme, and no one's got it. It ain't no
fun when the rabbit got the gun. And I believe in being a rabbit with
the gun! \<laughs\> That's the truth! \<coughs\> And that theme went
through out of step as to why it happened in Lowndes County, that people
were there in Lowndes County were willing to fight back. It- it- it
affected Mississippi, it affected those in Georgia, Louisiana,
Tennessee, \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ to West Carolina, and John Lewis and Jim
Foreman were going crazy trying to keep it down, and say, "No, no, no,
we got to be non-violent; we got to be non-violent." People in the
northern part of the cities -- Cincinnati, Chicago, New York, Detroit
were saying, "Hell, no; fight back. Hell, yes, we'll fight back." And
then when the people came out like that, they could not control it. This
was close to a grassroots movement -- it wasn't a the- a ideology write
down by us; it was a grassroots theme that was fought by the people they
went along with.

Q: I hear you clearly, and I need you to talk a little bit about this
grassroots, because given the SNCC folk
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, you know, who'd been on interviews
and what have you, you get the sense that there was no -- that all of
this, whether it was SCLC or SNCC, this notion, all of these notions,
you know, came down from the north some place \<inaudible\> was here.
These were grassroots, is that true?

**Scottsby:** Yes. The- the- one of the strategies was trying to get-
trying to develop in the north base on what the people in the south were
saying. When they would talk to us about -- when we go to their houses,
their homes, or on the -- on the side of the road, about what we were
trying to do concerning encourage them to go to the courthouse or expect
the jailhouse to register to vote. They would talk back to us and tell
us certain things on their mind. As they talk back to us, we would- our
theme with the SNCC was that we would try and develop leadership within
the community, that those in the- in the community had that leadership,
we therefore follow and go along with that leadership. They were the
ones which were, uhm- being oppressed, not us. They were the ones that
go through the- going through the hell. So we were listening to what
they had to say. And when we got those- their feedback, we were going to
have our meetings and tell those in the meetings what the people in the
community were saying. That's where that grassroots power started moving
at. And when that power started moving, we had to go along with it. We
couldn't say, "No, don't do this. Yes, okay, you want to do this? We
will go along and do it your way." We did that. That was the- that was
the most beautiful thing about SNCC, by the fact they were wanting the
best for people and go along with the people and therefore encourage
them to keep going on, never stop, never take a step backwards. Always
try to take two or three or more. And then once we did that, that's when
we got that emphasize- emphasis to us about what the grassroots was
really saying. And once you tap into that power, nothing to stop you.
\<coughs\>

Q: Now, you came down -- do you want to take a little break or
something?

**Scottsby:** No, it's all right.

Q: You came down after Bloody Sunday. Did you see that stuff on TV?

**Scottsby:** Yes, I seen it on TV --

Q: Again, they don't know what I'm talking about; they will not, so
gotta get

**Scottsby:** \<coughs\>

Q: \<inaudible\> Sunday into it.

**Scottsby:** Uhm- Hugh Hefner -- at the Hugh Hefner's office there in
Chicago, in the Playboy Club, I seen Bloody Sunday on TV. It was being
shown on TV. That's one thing I admire about Hugh Hefner -- he's not
only a liberal person but he's a radical person. And he's -- different
ones on the job could see what was going on. Well, I \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
got the phone call on my job from different ones at SNCC urging me to-
to leave Chicago and go to- to Alabama and to assist them with the- with
the- the voter registration where it was going on down there. Uhm- I
said, "okay". I left my paycheck, left a good job, the bunnies -- they
were very -- the bunnies in Chicago are very important, because they
were \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ on various demonstrations that were going
in the south, and help us raise money. But Hugh Hefner never stepped in
to say, "No, you don't do that." When this one \_\_\_\_\_ got the job,
and would meet Gravy \[ph?\] and myself and others down on the south
side of Chicago at the Village Club \[ph?\], they would come in the door
and let every man in the whole house stand up to them, and I said, "My
God, who is that? Who- who- who is that?" And we were sitting down at
the bar, looking at all \_\_\_\_\_\_sitting back, with this fine woman
who was sitting alongside of us, and we would raise money in the bar.
\<coughs\> \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ doesn't normally do that. Well, I would go
along and get Gregory \[ph?\] and have a good time with him, and
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ doing that, and the money would be sent to SNCC and, uhm-
uhm- every club and Hefner would have a party at his house, and I would
have different ones I knew on the south side, and \_\_\_\_\_\_ in the
streets, I would tell them about Hefner having a party, and I would get
\$200 a head for going to the party. You know, I'd take that money and
send it to- to Atlanta.

Q: Okay. Now, what I need from you is an impression: you were in the
north, you ultimately went to the south, you know, to participate, work
for SNCC. What was the sense that you had of the broad reaction to all
that footage?

**Scottsby:** Anger -- pure anger.

Q: Tell me what you were mad about?

**Scottsby:** Okay. What I was mad about --

Q: No, no, no. I'm not only talking about your reaction; I'm talking
about the general mood of the people. It shocked the nation!

**Scottsby:** It angered a large number of the black population that had
got beaten that way, who were treated that way. It angered them. They
were angry at Wallace. \[ph?\] They were very angry and very upset at
the very fact it was -- used horses were used to run over them, and beat
them and drag them down the streets. That's - when you felt that raw
emotion come back at you, it was like being hit with- with cold water.
And I just looked and said, "Well, what am I gonna do?" Because I was
getting these phone calls, "Are you coming? Are you coming? Are you
coming?" I said, "I'm coming. Uhm- ain't- ain't no way I'm gonna get out
of this one. There's a fight going on, and I want to be involved in that
fight." And that's what I decided to do.

Q: So now, you were there in a few days?

**Scottsby:** \<coughs\> Overnight. I took the next- I took the first
bus out.

Q: There's no rush here, so \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ yourself. I want you to
\<inaudible\>

\<crew talk\>

Q: You mentioned some church?

**Scottsby:** Yes, the church was in Lowndes County, named Mount
Gilliard Baptist Church. Mount Gilliard Baptist Church was the first
church where a mass meeting was held concerning voter registration and
going to the courthouse which was transferred by the people in the
courthouse to the jailhouse for people in Lowndes County which were
black to register to vote. That church became known as the Mother
Church. Mount Gilliard Church actually it was a double church. That's
where slaves - during the period of time of slavery -- were allowed to
attend the white church to get into the religion through the American,
uhm- Missionary Society. That's where that came from. And then, by them
being a double church, the blacks, after the Civil War was over, were-
were given land by the white ch- church members, brought them land to
still go with their religion concerning the Baptist religion. That's
where that church is very- very historically known for, and that's where
we had our first church. If you look at the way where Mount Gilliard is
located, you see it goes out- the road goes out into the black belt
area, the \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ area, it goes \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ where
the large number of black population of people live at. They came from
those areas into \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ to the church at Mount
Gilliard for the various mass meetings, and that's - and Stokely's idea
as well as myself and Jimmy was to crack the county, we were to start
from White Hall and go down to Fort Deposit, establishing SNCC workers
in various areas at the time. And I- I became the project director of
Hayneville, and from there I just kept raising hell in the- in the
community of Hayneville, and that's when I came in- in contact with
little Jackson. The people would come out from those areas -- Collarene,
Black Belt \[ph?\] -- and would come to the jailhouse, not the
courthouse, the jailhouse, to intimidate them. We stood in long lines.
One time little Jackson wanted to shoot me because I-- he came out of
the- of the jailhouse door pulling his gun. I took a bone that I was
wearing at that time and put it in front of his face and told him- for
him to call me from now on Mr Scottby. "You don't call me Scottby, you
call me Mr Scottby." When I got that message across to him, he ran back
in- inside of- inside the jailhouse, and the people in- in- in line were
just overwhelmed that this actually happened, that little Jackson, which
was known to kill black men, in jail and outside the jail, was
frightened because of Scottby and his bone. I got the nickname, called
Boneman. Well, after getting various nicknames, I got the nickname
called ScottyB because of what Wallace did.

Q: What did he do?

**Scottsby:** Wallace got mad at an impromptu press conference and
called me a black son of a bitch, because we were asking questions about
what was going on in Beaufort \[ph?\] County, and that's when he got cut
off the air. And the people in- in the mass meetings were so tickled
that Wallace was cut off the air by the Federal Government, they would
laugh, but they couldn't call me a son of a bitch in church, so they
called me ScottyB, and that's how I got the nickname. \<coughs\>

Q: You come down here after Bloody Sunday, within days, and you start --
there's another march to take place.

**Scottsby:** Stokely came in --

Q: Can we continue?

**Scottsby:** Stokely came into the Freedom House where a large number
of people would- were gather at for coming in concerning the march. And
he came into the Freedom House and said, "I need some volunteers. Do we
have any volunteers to go with me to Lowndes County?" I laying there
\[ph?\], looked at him, I said, "Okay, I'm- I'm -- count me in, I'll go
with you." And then he just laughed, but no one knew wh- what
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ was all about. I didn't know what it barely was. I
was so young, I'd go with him, because I trusted Stokely. So I went-
went in there with him, and Bob Mants said, yes, he would go, Jimmy
Rogers said he would go, and we all got in the car and went to- and went
to Lowndes County at this mass meeting. That's when I seen the people.
What I seen then, and they were all waiting for this to- to hear what
was going on. They were ready for it. I said, "All right, these people
are ready." Where you go then, there ain't no stopping them. That's all
I wanted to know. This was a group of people which were willing to go
back and fight. Non-violent true enough, but in case they were attacked
\<coughs\> they would fight back.

Q: Okay. So now, tell me about this march?

**Scottsby:** The march was very cold. Weather-wise, it was very cold.
Uhm- King was vacillating back and forth, with when to start, when not
to start, what the conditions were. We did not know what was going on.
Uhm- then, when the march got started, it was only a certain number of
people that got involved in the march. I decided to come with those on
night watch. A night watchman would be somebody that would guard the
marchers, and because the march was at night, and that's what I did.
Therefore I could participate in the march and really have- have
obviously a meaningful thing I'd be doing, rather than just marching
along.

Q: Okay, now you've got to help us out here, because the deal is that
some of the people who are going to come to this museum and see this
film aren't going to know Jack Dookey squat \[ph?\] about these marches,
how they took place, how they were organized, how they looked. I need
you to tell me in shorthand fashion, you know, "We started out in Selma;
crossed the Pettus Bridge, crossed Route 80, but we couldn't make -- ".
You know what I'm saying -- I'm not putting words in your mouth, but you
go a ways, you would stop and you would camp. You would go a ways, you'd
stop and you'd camp. You'd go a ways, you'd stop -- eventually you got
to Montgomery. I mean, I'm doing far much to it -- you know exactly what
happened. I need a short capsule expression of how -- you see what I'm
saying?

**Scottsby:** Right.

Q: Okay, go for it.

**Scottsby:** Well, in Selma at \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_Chapel Church, we
got together and there was a discussion about how- how we gonna gather-
how many c-could go because of- of the size of the highway. And
different ones which were- which were able to make it because of the-
the condition of the shoes, \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ to wear because it
was so cold, they were decided that way. Those which wanted to be
involved - it was a volunteer thing - as night watchmen, they in turn
volunteered themselves as night watchmen. On the march, the various
churches we would pass would- would have dynamite inside the churches
for- as booby traps to blow up or if we damaged the church. That
dynamite was found by Idaho Dynason. \[ph?\] He was the one that would
go underneath the churches and find out where the different ones they
had placed dynamite or some kind of instrument to therefore blow up
during the time the marchers would go by. The National Guard was brought
in by President Johnson which made the National Guard into the Army. A
man named Mr Daniels was the one that was in- outside of Selma that
told- came- after he'd seen Bloody Sunday go by, what happened on TV, he
came into Selma and told King that he could use his land in Dallas
County as one of the campsites \<coughs\> which had cattle there on the
land.

Q: Just \<inaudible\>

**Scottsby:** They had cattle on the land, and we used this campsite
there, with the agreement that the women would be on one side and men be
on the other, and we would go as night watchmen on- on- on night watch,
alongside the- the line near the cattle fencing. The National Guard men,
which was from Alabama, would \_\_\_\_\_ up the fence and use the fence
posts as- as wood to keep themselves warm at night. And the Army would
have to therefore pay the different ones to, uhm- pay for the damage
they had done to their fencing. There's this field which is still in
Lowndes County became the second campsite -- the same thing happened to
her. During the time you were marching during the day, it would rain,
just cold, drizzly rain, that would just- you could just feel in your
bones it was cold. With us marching and singing, people would come in
from other small county roads and join the march \<coughs\> passing food
to us, drinks, laughing and joking, encouraging us to keep on marching
-- don't stop marching -- and would run back home to watch it on TV as
to what was happening, that was going on. They were- they were seeing
their preachers be involved in it, say encouraging words to us. It was-
it was just awesome to them, and they -- I could understand them well,
with the historical point of view to go on with at that time. When we
got to the third campsite, Gardner's campsite, we \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
on the highway again, same procedure. We were camping out -- it was
raining. It would rain, intermittently back and forth, cold rain,
drizzles, and very little sunshine. I- I remember all the \_\_\_\_\_\_,
drizzly like, and we weren't getting too much sleep because we were on
night watch, watching over the people at night.

Q: How many people in this march are we talking about?

**Scottsby:** \<coughs\> Oh, I would say 300 as they got out of- out
Selma, and then it gathered to about 2,000 out- outside, and in the
highway, got larger. That's when it gathered up. By the time we got to
Gardner's, the number of people that came in from the various -- you got
to understand when you look at the map, you see where the small county
roads became loaded with people coming in to join and they'd let their
children off or their parents off, their friends off the highway to join
us on Highway 80 from the conjunction of the small county highways, and
that's when- that's when we begin to build up, and build up, and build
up. By the time we were going to Montgomery, we got to St. \_\_\_\_\_\_
church \<coughs\> - the number was close to 25,000. That night I do
believe the number came close to 50 next morning, because the whole
section of West Montgomery became a mass of people, moving people like
ants, was- was vibrating back and forth, people coming in, going back
out, bringing food in, bringing food back out, bringing food in,
bringing friends in, back and forth, until we made the march to the
State capital, I believe the number that grew was over 25,000 or more,
it was close to 50,000, because they came from \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ all of
the states -- Mississippi; they came in from Georgia, they came in from
Mobile, Birmingham -- they showed up.

Q: I thank you and I appreciate you talking about people coming, because
there might be an impression in somebody's head that, lo and behold, all
these folk came from the north and then, hey, they were the power behind
the march. It was ordinary people.

**Scottsby:** Yes, that's where it came from. The people what- that
showed up were folks that lived in Greensboro, lived in, uhm- uhm- small
town Eufaula \[ph?\], lived in, uhm- Lake Eufaula, Clayton, uhm- small
towns, small areas. They came into that knowing for the fact that King
was speaking or- or they were going for just Wallace. That was the most
important thing. They were showing Wallace that they want to hit back
and they want to be recognized as human beings. Wallace would throw them
back. \[ph?\] The Confederates -- they were the Confederacy, didn't
know- know how to handle that. And they should be very glad they're
still alive today. That no black woman did not poison them when they
were feeding them their breakfast or their dinner at night. Or they
start twitching -- doesn't matter, "What's wrong with you?" Or some
black may decide, I'm a fixing that for good. And they did -- they
should be- \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ going on hands and knees every night, and go
to bed and hear me say, "I'm glad my grandfather's still alive."

Q: In the work that I've done over the years, I've seen a lot of the
footage from the Selma marches. And one that stuck with me, I only saw
it once -- I haven't seen it again -- was this old black
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ like on the first day of the march,
and it was clear that he had come from some rural area. And somebody
said to him, "Have you ever met Dr Martin Luther King?" And he said,
"No, sir." But, you know, it was King who was asking the question. And
the man said, "I've never met Dr King." And King said, "You have now."
That was a powerful kind of a moment.

**Scottsby:** Oh, yes.

Q: And I bet you there were all sorts of powerful moments throughout the
march and what have you. Do you recall any?

**Scottsby:** Uhm- the- the most important thing I- I recall was the
fact, uhm- of the white National Guard men that were talking about the
fact of the white women that were there with the black people, and the
white men that were there with the black people. They really were angry
about that, very, uhm- highly upset that somebody white would join the
march. I recall, uhm- talking to the National Guard members \<coughs\>
and, uhm- they were angry about it. That's when they start tearing the
fence posts up because it was so cold in the night, to keep themselves
-- make a- make a fire for themselves to keep warm. Uhm- I remember one
black woman that was carrying a baby, and she carried the baby like she
was from Africa. It was like a shawl wrapped around where the baby was
hanging on her, not over her shoulder -- it was hanging on her. And she
carried with her hand, and the way she carried her baby underneath with-
with her other hand, she was like supporting the baby. And she was
turning the baby all around so the baby could see what was going on. The
child was holding on to- to the- her coat. The way the child hook- and
was looking, fascinated all what the mother was telling the child. She
was telling him about this is history, this is what's going on. This is
how momma's rocking. Daddy's not here, but daddy could be here, but
daddy's right now he's at work, but he knows we'll be
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, we gonna see daddy later on. And the child would
talk to the mother, and the mother kept walking. She never faltered one
time. She walked to the point what God me with -- she took her shoes
off. It was cold, but she said her shoes were bothering her, they were
too tight. But she felt better with walking bare-footed.

Q: It's a funny thing, you know, we've got pictures of those black
people taking their shoes off and putting them in the muddy water.

**Scottsby:** Mmm, oh yeah, wade in the water -- that's where that theme
come from. Let's wade in the water together, children. That's where the
word came from, but, uhm- she got me because she took her shoes off, put
her shoes back on after a period of time, and kept walking, but she
carried her baby that way, and then what got me was, the baby was
getting carried in a African way. It- it was carry- over her shoulder.
Then she would move the child around where she would hold it, and then
she put it over her shoulder with this here large like a blanket-like
thing which she kept tied around her and would keep on going. And then
she had food inside of the- where the child was located, where she would
feed the child.

Q: So, we get to Montgomery and there's this big speech --

**Scottsby:** Uh huh.

Q: - at a place where probably a lot of black folks probably said,
"There would never be a speech like that ever made before."

A It was the night before, that's what got everybody. The entertainers.
I met the guy that was fr- involved in Bonanza, one of the guy, uhm- the
big brother, the oldest brother, uhm- I forgot his name. Uhm- he was
there. Uhm- I seen a- a number of movie stars but I was sort of keeping
watch over them but they- they asked me to watch over them, and I
watched them. I watched over them, and I- and I met different ones, but
this guy, this, uhm- played in Bonanza, he- he really impressed me. He
was there, his wife was scary, she was nervous as hell, but he was just
firm and believing what was going on was right, and he wasn't gonna
change. He would calm her down, and he had his mind focused on the very
fact of what they were seeing together. That impressed me a great deal.
From then I became a Bonanza fan, it was then. \<coughs\> But I forgot
his name, but he- he's a- he's the brother, the oldest brother, and,
uhm- I forgot his name, but I-

Q: Well let's stop for a second. I'm trying to think of his name, too.
\<inaudible\> Well, it doesn't matter.

**Scottsby:** It does matter, because he encouraged others -- he walked
around with people. He did not behave as "I was a movie star and above."
He was, "I am so and so, so and so, how you doing?" He was- he gave the
impression and the belief that he was proud to be with local people.
They were- they were so fascinated behind him, they were walking right
behind him. Everywhere he went, I had a crowd to, "Get back, get back."
And they'd say, "I want to see him. I want to \_\_\_\_ talk to him." And
he'd just treat them like, you know, "Hello, how are you? This is my
wife so and so, so and so. She's scared too. It's all right." Boom,
boom, boom. He's just in \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, I was so impressed, I- I-
I just said, "This man really has my mind and my heart the way he's
handling himself." He was, I would say, an outsider being an insider.

Q: Was Harry there at night, Belafonte?

**Scottsby:** Yes. And when we got to singing, oh man, Sammy Davis
Junior put on a performance that was- that was beyond comprehension.
When he got to sing \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ song, and sing, "We shall
overcome", the white people -- understand this, now, they would look at
-

\#### End of CD2 \####