INTERVIEWER: Edwin Barce, Chief Historian, Washington Office of the
National Parks Service

ALSO PRESENT: Blair Hubbard, Harpers Ferry Center; Blake Lambert &
Barbara Tagger, Southeast Regional Office

LOCATION: Office of Frederick D. Reese, Principal of Selma High School

**\[01:09\]**

**Q:** I want to start off, Dr. Reese, by asking you to give us a little
background about yourself: your education, occupation and family. Are
you a native of Dallas County?

**A:** Yes, I\'m a native Selmian. And of course I was born in Selma and
of course I\-- November the 28th, 1929. And of course I attended
elementary, high school here in Selma, and graduated from high school
and went to Alabama State University, and subsequently to Livingston
University and Selma University also, and of course that\'s where I got
all of my formal training. Of course, I attended the University of
Alabama for\-- also Clarke College for certain studies.

**\[02:22\]**

I came out of college with a Bachelor\'s Degree in secondary education,
and of course with a major in science, minor mathematics. And I went to
Wilcox County to Millers Ferry, Alabama, where I did my first teaching
engagement. I taught at Millers Ferry at the high school for nine years.

**\[03:06\]**

In 1960 I left Wilcox County training school and came back home to
Selma. I taught at R.B. Hudson High School, which at that time was all
black student body. Well, one or two white staff members, in 1960. And
that student body had about 1500 students. I taught mathematics and
science at R.B. Hudson High School. And after being on staff for nine
months the first year I came back, I was elected president of the Selma
City Teachers Association, which at that time was an all-black teachers
association. The associations were segregated.

**\[04:05\]**

And of course during my tenure as president of the Selma City Teachers
Association, there are many things that I did which in the interest of
teachers at that time, such as going to the superintendent, getting
appropriate sick leave, getting leave of absence and so forth, which did
not exist at that time. And the things I did for the teachers really
gave teachers a lot of confidence in me in my administration as
president.

**\[04:54\]**

And of course the very first thing that I did was to file\-- had a
proclamation. I wrote a proclamation to those teachers, indicating to
them that they should go down to the Board of Registrar and file
application to become a registered voter. We had teachers who had gone
down to that board some five times and had been denied. Some had
Master\'s Degrees. And of course I read that proclamation in the
presence of the superintendent and assistant superintendent of this
school system, who were white, and of course that was almost unheard of
at that time. You just didn\'t talk about the right to vote. And of
course blacks had been denied that right and had not had the privilege
since Reconstruction, so to speak.

**\[05:52\]**

And of course there were even members of the Selma City Teachers
Association who thought \-- I guess they thought they had elected a
president who was cuckoo. And of course there was great silence in that
meeting. And I reiterated the fact that I thought that if we had
teachers who were teaching citizenship and were not first-class citizens
themselves, they should proceed then to go down and get registered to
become registered voters. And of course that was not an easy thing to
do, however. But we wanted to drive home the fact that teachers should
spend time now in getting registered.

**\[06:37\]**

I also went to the superintendent and asked that he would permit
teachers to go down to the county courthouse to the Board of Registrar
during their preparation period, which I knew he was not going to do, to
go ahead and get registered. But after persisting, teachers then went
down after school and many of the teachers got registered. And of course
at that particular point, when many teachers got registered, I posed to
the teachers the fact that as leaders in the community and the teaching
profession was the largest black profession in Dallas County, that we
should take the lead in trying to get the right to vote for every
citizen, regardless of their status.

**\[07:33\]**

And of course because I had been engaged in mass meetings from 19, well,
\'63 on, and teachers just were not involved in the movement, in the
mass meetings. They were middle class people, supposedly had it made, so
to speak, and did not want to muddy the water in terms of being pioneers
in pushing for the right to vote, because it was not easy, because any
person who presented themselves as being interested in this type of
thing could be ostracized. They could be\-- they could lose their jobs
and these type things, and of course physical harm could come.

**\[08:27\]**

But I told them I thought that as teachers we need to set an example,
that we need to march down to the county courthouse to make it known
that as teachers we were concerned about those citizens in the community
who did not have the right to vote, and therefore I recommended that we
would engage in a teachers march on January the 22nd, 1965, on a Friday.
I had written to the Board of Registrar a registered letter asking that
they would be open on Friday, January 22nd, which I know that ordinarily
would not be open, but just for the record and documentation I wrote the
letter that we were coming down as teachers to become registered.

**\[09:24\]**

Well, there were many people that thought that that never would happen,
because when I met the mass meeting that Wednesday before the 22nd at
Tabernacle Baptist Church here, I told the mass meeting that on Friday
teachers would march. This man joking, \"Teachers will never march.\"
But I said, \"Oh yes.\"

And so it was on that Friday when I left R.B. Hudson High School and we
were to meet at Clark Elementary School, the elementary school that I
attended when I was in elementary grades. And at 3:30 when I got on
campus at Clark School, only one car was there, but shortly after I got
there then cars started coming in, parking, and we had 99%
participation.

**\[10:25\]**

There were teachers who were quite elderly. In fact, several teachers
who taught me when I was in elementary school still on the staff. And
they came to that meeting and I shall never forget that several sat
there as my former teachers and told me, said, \"Now listen boy, now I
cannot march down to the courthouse but I\'m here, and I\'m going to sit
here until you get back.\" And so that was tremendously encouraging.

**\[10:58\]**

And of course when we organized inside that elementary schoolhouse and
walked out that front door, which was just in the same neighborhood of a
project area, there were students and teachers standing out on the
sidewalk, across the street. I should never forget that scene, for when
those teachers filed out of that schoolhouse, I saw parents shouting,
some were crying, students were shouting, because they felt that now\--
prior to that time students had been arrested in 1964 and what have you,
and now we have teachers who were looked up to by students and by
parents, now have made a decision to go and become involved.

**\[12:05\]**

That was the greatest moment. I said that that was the turning point.
That gave the movement the momentum it needed, because from that point
on it led to the march to Montgomery and then\-- and activities
thereafter.

But on the way to the courthouse\-- and I will get through with this I
guess\-- on the way to the courthouse we saw businessmen, men who really
knew that teachers had accounts in their businesses, standing on the
sidewalk and saying that teachers had enough courage to forego any
thought of being\-- receiving closed-out accounts because of their
participation.

**\[13:02\]**

And when we got to the courthouse, Jim Clark, who was at that time a
symbol of resistance in the South, standing across the door with his
deputies, had the door of the courthouse blocked. And we were walking
double file. We went up the steps and I almost rubbed noses with Jim
Clark, and of course the incoming president, A.J. Durgin(?), was my
partner. And we went up the steps and he indicated to us to get off the
steps, that we were making a mockery of that courthouse, that he\'d give
us a minute to move off, if not, he was going to move us.

**\[13:46\]**

Well, truly, I really wanted to get every teacher arrested. I ha asked
that they would bring their toothpaste and face towel, so if they got
arrested they could be in jail probably that Friday night and Saturday
night, and Sunday night I had some lawyers standing by so that they
could get them out so they\'d be in the classroom on Monday. But we went
up the steps and we did not get off the steps in a minute time, so he
took the billy club, the deputies, and jabbed us down the steps, down
the sidewalk.

**\[14:24\]**

And my partner asked me, \"What shall we do?\" I said, \"We will go back
the second time.\" Because he was not too enthusiastic about it, but we
regrouped, went back up the second time, we had another minute, we
didn\'t move, and he jabbed us down the steps the second time. He said,
\"What shall we do?\" I said, \"We\'re going back the third time.\"

And when the third time and he gave us a minute, and about I guess 15
seconds before the minute had expired someone came from behind, came
from within the courthouse, behind the door there, and came out and
pulled him inside the courthouse. I don\'t know what they told him
specifically but I should imagine what they told him: \"For goodness
sakes, don\'t arrest those teachers.\" Because that would have given the
kind of momentum to that movement that really would have really
increased the pace.

**\[15:22\]**

But so then undoubtedly he abided by their suggestion. So he came back
out and knocked us down the steps a third time. So I saw he was not
going to arrest us, so then I asked the teachers to\-- I led them back
to Brown Chapel Church, which is the church wherein the\-- was the focal
point of the meeting place of the movement.

If I might just back up before that time now, in 1964, as you know, the
Public Accommodation Act was passed and we were desegregating lunch
counters, and we had invited SNCC organization in here. SNCC
organization came in to assist. They were really pioneers in opening up
opportunities and making people in Selma and Dallas County aware of the
right guaranteed by the constitution and so forth, the right to vote.
They came in to help us.

**\[16:32\]**

And so in 1964, the latter part of \'63 and \'64 and toward\-- well in
July of 1964 I was in jail. I was arrested for contributing to the
delinquency of a minor. We were demonstrating with some plaques and so I
was arrested and jailed. And the circuit judge wrote an injunction. And
by the way, I was president at the same time of the Dallas County Voters
League. So simultaneously I was president of the Selma City Teachers
Association and then connected with the Dallas County Voters League.

**\[17:21\]**

So we were enjoined from meeting. When I saw we, I mean the Dallas
County Voters League, could not any longer hold any more mass meetings,
that if we held mass meetings or if five or more people were found
congregating on the streets discussing the right to vote, they would be
arrested. And so that really put a damper on the movement from July 1964
until January the 2nd, 1965, at which time although the officers of the
Dallas County Voters League would meet from house to house. We didn\'t
meet in churches but we met from house to house.

**\[18:04\]**

And at that particular time we were deciding what are we going to do
about that injunction. And we decided we would not let a piece of paper
really deter us from proceeding with pursuing the right for all citizens
to vote. So we decided since SNCC resources had dwindled\-- when I say
dwindled, that means their financial resources as well as their person
there, during \'64, and things were somewhat stalemated.

**\[18:43\]**

So then in December 1964 I met with a field worker from the Southern
Christian Leadership Conference and we asked for their assistance, Dr.
King. And December 1964 I signed the invitation for Dr. King and SCLC to
come into Selma to assist us as we pursued the right to vote, which
would include breaking that injunction. It was on January the 2nd, 1965
that injunction was broken. We took a chance on being arrested.

The church was packed. And really what happened when the law enforcement
officers came and saw such a large crowd of people at that meeting,
nothing was mentioned about arresting anybody. The only thing the law
enforcement officers did was to see that everybody who had a car had a
parking space. I should imagine they looked at the crowd and said it was
too many people to feed in that city jail so they\'d forget about it.
And so that did away with the injunction. The injunction became nil.

**\[20:01\]**

And from that point on we then resumed our meeting nightly. And these
mass meetings were meetings for motivation, stimulation, injecting
courage to resist and to oppose the existing status quo. You could not
come to a mass meeting and sit there and listen to those speakers and
those who had been involved in this thrust, the right to vote, and not
become caught up. And then you had people there who had been arrested,
who had exhibited courage. You had people there who had undergone
certain suffering, but yet they were living testimony, being a part of a
movement that had some validity to it, and it made a person feel proud
to be a part of it. And those people who had not been arrested were
almost outcast. If you had didn\'t have an arrest record, then you had
to hurry up and get arrested in order to be a part of it. That\'s the
kind of feeling that was generated.

**\[21:21\]**

And so it was then after January 22nd\-- I mean, January the 2nd, that
we asked Dr. King to come in. And then we kept meeting, and that\'s when
the Teachers Association, when I was president of the Teachers
Association, led that group of teachers down on the 22nd of January,
1965.

**\[21:43\]**

And then we kept meeting after that point, it led to March 7th, where
then it was a decision made by SCLC Board of Directors upon my
recommendation and acceptance of the suggestion coming from a field
worker. His name was James Bevel, the field worker for SCLC, regarding
the possibility of marching to Montgomery, walking to Montgomery. And he
posed that question to me and I thought it was a grand idea. I said that
would at least exhibit the impression that we are poor, we can\'t drive,
we don\'t have any car to ride in so we had to walk. And also to address
the governor, to make him aware of the lack of housing, sewage, as well
as other denials in the community, as well as the lack of having the
right to vote here.

**\[22:47\]**

And so that was presented to the board and it was accepted. So then only
the logistics were worked out regarding moving from Selma to Montgomery
and stopping at said points, and then proceeding to the capitol on the
indicated time. But really there was a discussion on that Sunday, which
is March the 7th, in the pastors parsonage, which is next to Brown
Chapel, regarding a statement that came to the leaders in that room,
that has been confirmed, that we had state troopers across the Edmund
Pettus Bridge and so forth. And someone said well then why we don\'t
elude the state troopers and go down 14 to Montgomery.

**\[23:48\]**

Well that was debated and I felt that we had a right to march down
Highway 80. I did not go along with trying to evade anything. And that
was the general feeling of the other leaders. We had persons there from
like SNCC, CORE, Dallas County Voters League, SCLC, different
organizations at that time.

**\[24:14\]**

And so then we proceeded to get people in. I came out and as President
of the Dallas County Voters League to get people in companies, 50s and
100, to march. And they had to be at least two\-- at least three feet
apart. The city ordinance said that you must be at least three feet
apart if you\'re going to march\-- participate in any type of, they call
it parade. And so to keep the marchers from being arrested in the city
limits we made sure they were at least three feet apart, in order to get
to the bridge.

**\[24:56\]**

And so we did that, and then when you got to the Edmund Pettus Bridge
you looked, and you get on the apex of that bridge and looked down, you
could see a sea of blue: blue helmets, blue uniforms. And state trooper
cars were parked on either side of the highway. And there\'s Captain
Cloud over the bullhorn, said, \"We\'ve been instructed not to allow you
to march.\" In other words, this was in essence what he said, that \"for
your protection, safety and so forth, and therefore you are being asked
to disperse, go back to the church.\"

Well we had given orders to those marchers that we would not turn back
unless turned back. And so I went up and down the line at a point and
told the marchers to kneel. The state troopers prior to that time came
in with the billy club, exposed(?) at both ends, as if you were going to
literally force these people back. But after making contact with the
front line, then it became a beating situation, and you had people who
were injured, blood was flowing.

**\[26:26\]**

And then they were asked to withdraw and they got the gas canisters off
their belts and lobbed those gas canisters over into the crowd. Well, if
you\'ve ever been in gas, you couldn\'t stay there, then you had to move
out. And these people went to the right, toward the East side of the
highway, behind a building, into a field, to get out of that gas. And I
didn\'t really understand it myself. You know, I was in the gas, but I
don\'t remember getting decapacitated with the gas. I was busy trying to
help the other people get in that field.

**\[27:07\]**

And then after getting behind the building in that field, the state
troopers formed a parallel line at the corner of that building, coming
back into the highway, and the marchers in the field after about 15, 20
minutes, whatever, had to walk through the parallel line of state
troopers coming back to the highway, going back across the bridge, in a
sense. But at the end\-- there was no more violence on the part of the
state troopers coming through that parallel line\-- but at the end of
the parallel line you had the sheriff posse, and the posse on horseback
had the long sticks and so forth. And as the marchers came back they
were pursued on horseback. And of course these long sticks were used to
hit heads and shoulders, making sure that they be pursued all the way
back to the church.

**\[28:07\]**

And being pursued to the church, I can vividly remember the fact that
there was one person who had been pursued back and he wanted to go in
his house and get his shotgun. I told him, I said, \"You better get back
in the house with that shotgun. We had indicated if you could not be
nonviolent that you would not get in this march and that the only thing
you\'re going to do now is to get a lot of folk hurt with that
shotgun.\" So I prevailed upon him. He went back and took the shotgun
back in the house. I could understand how he felt, because his family
were in the march and were part of that violence that took place.

**\[29:05\]**

But anyway, getting back to the church, you had the state troopers then
cavalry, on horseback, and had rifles down at the corner of the street
from the church. I had talked to those people many times in the mass
meeting, looked in their eyes at times and\-- but when I looked into
their eyes that day after that violence, I could see a big question
mark, wondering whether or not nonviolence was the proper procedure to
follow. And of course I read scripture, read prayer, this type of thing.

**\[30:02\]**

And we stayed in that church and about nine or nine-thirty that night,
after all this had been flashed on the TV all over the country, and
there were those people in disbelief that that was happening here in
America. And about 9:30, one of the most exhilarating and profound acts
of motivation took place, when a group of people who charted a plane
from New Jersey came to Selma after they had gotten a call\-- and by the
way, as we got back to the church, I got a call from Dr. King. He was in
Atlanta. And he called me Mr. President. He said, \"Mr. President, I
understand that you all had a little trouble down at Selma.\" I said,
\"Dr. King, that\'s an understatement.\" I said, \"We\'ve had a lot of
trouble here but we are surviving.\" He said, \"I have sent out a call
to the nation, anyone that wants to come to Selma would be welcome.\"

**\[31:21\]**

And so at 9:30 that night that group walked in the church door. That was
one of the most exhilarating acts. They said, \"We are here from New
Jersey. We have seen what has happened and we are here to lend our
bodies and our assistance to you people in Selma.\" And those people who
had undergone that afternoon, that violence, and the great question
mark, felt then that they had some support, they were not alone, and
that truly nonviolent deserved another chance. And so their spirits were
lifted and they then were recommitted to the nonviolent method.

**\[32:25\]**

So from that point on, we said, mass meetings and people came to Selma,
Selma then became an ecumenical gathering here: all nationalities, all
religions, what have you, were represented here. People in Selma opened
their doors, opened their houses, and they slept on the floor and
allowed these people who were here to sleep in their beds, and it was
just a great outpouring of, I guess of cooperation and appreciation.

**\[33:01\]**

And of course we had the Berlin Wall, what they called the Berlin Wall,
that was just an act, but then the time that we were stopped at the
bridge, then the question was whether or not we were going to go back
the next day or whatever to try to get on to Montgomery. And there were
those who really wanted to do that. But we were approached\-- Dr. King
and of course Abernathy were approached about allowing the courts an
opportunity to make a decision whether or not we had the right to march
down Highway 80. There were those who came to Selma, they want to march.
That\'s what they came here for.

**\[33:48\]**

So in order to try to pacify all these folk coming down to march, we
would organize a march and we would march to the point of confrontation
across the bridge, and then we\'ll march back to the church. And this
was done several times. And then we had marching all over the city. Some
said we want to march, march in the community where the mayor\'s office
was, anywhere to march.

So all that was done to try to give the court and Montgomery Judge
Johnson an opportunity to make a decision, to make a ruling, on whether
or not we had the right. So then we got that ruling and it was on the
21st that we then proceeded on that march. The first leg of the march
was out here past, at that time, Craig Field. And then we had certain
other legs of the march. I did not stay with the group every day and
night because I would march and I would come back here to the church
because we still had meetings here and someone needed to be giving
directions and leadership here. So it was a matter of shuttling, in a
sense.

**\[35:13\]**

But there were those who stayed with the group and marched every\-- I
mean, they were with the group from the time they left until the time
they reached Montgomery. And of course efforts were made, you know, I\'m
sure there was certain opposition you had when they were trying to get
certain points for camping. It\'s a question, whose land shall we camp
on? You had whites who owned land, would not be disposed to allow any
camping, not for that reason, on their land, so it was a matter then
having to get land that some blacks had some connection with or whatever
the case might be. All right. So that was all worked out and some, at
certain points, some of the marchers stayed in churches and you had
people, just outpouring of bringing food and whatever, clothing and
blankets and so forth.

**\[36:24\]**

So then the people in Selma, you had a tremendous number become involved
at that point. And even when we were\-- before we had the injunction\--
I mean, had the permission from the court to march, Wilson Baker, who
was at that time the Public Safety Director in the city, he had a rope
across the street there right by Brown Chapel Church. And we said
that\'s Berlin Wall. \...(inaudible) rope but we could have called it
just a rope. But we slept in the street out in front of the church as an
act of, you know, just waiting. And we would march in the daytime and
sleep out there at night until we got the ruling. It was kind of a, the
camaraderie was tremendous at that point. And people felt, being a part
of this great movement, that there was some historical significance to
it in a sense.

**\[37:35\]**

So it was at that particular point when we marched and we got to
Montgomery, the night before there were entertainers that were there who
performed on the grounds of Saint Jude. And of course the next morning
we grouped and lined up and marched onto the capitol. This is history,
you know what I mean?

**\[38:09\]**

But my commitment, I guess I would end this by saying that my commitment
had been even from the time I left Wilcox County, before I came back
home, because in Wilcox County there were no black voters. And I had
developed an interest and concern the year before I left there coming
back here, and so when I came here the first thing I did was connect
myself with at that time the Voters League, which is nothing more than a
holding organization. Because we only had a 175 voters, black voters, at
that time in all of Dallas County. And in 1964, out of 15,000 eligible
black voters, at that time we only had 300 black voters in all of Dallas
County. And so I connected myself with the Voters League when I came
back here, to become more actively involved, and brought that particular
Voters League to the forefront and really pursuing the right to vote for
all.

Okay. I\'ll stop right there and you can ask me whatever.

**\[39:40\]**

**Q:** When did you register to vote yourself?

**A:** I registered to vote when I came back here. I went down\--

**Q:** In Wilcox County?

**A:** In Wilcox County, so I came back in 1960, and it was after about
a year. I had gone down one time and I was told that the courthouse was
closed. After school I went down after, after school. And I had, you
know, whatever I had to do, I had plenty of time to do it, but it was
about a quarter to four and they said I didn\'t have time.

**\[40:17\]**

And so due to the fact that I had really exerted myself as a person who
was really trying to give leadership in that area, the next time I went,
you see, they allowed me to get registered. I guess they said, well now
since this man is projecting himself, we probably let him register and
shut him up, he can go back and\--

**Q:** Could you describe the process when you did register that they
put you through?

**\[40:45\]**

**A:** Yeah. First of all, you had a written part of the test. We called
it test. You were asked certain questions, you had to write the answer
to certain questions, after your demographics and so forth, name and all
that information. And plus you had to have someone to vouch for you,
character witnesses, regarding your residence and character, I guess.
And then after you shall have completed filling out these forms, then
they would take you back in the little back room back there and you had
to undergo an oral test. And the oral test was a test on the
constitution of the State of Alabama. Any question that you were asked
regarding the constitution of the State of Alabama, then you had to
answer them correctly, otherwise you would not be registered.

**\[41:47\]**

So you had this kind of thing going on. And you know, it was just a
matter of a front really, because at one point they would get ridiculous
about the question they would ask you, like how many bubbles in a bar of
soap. Well you know, obviously. But we knew what was going on, and
everybody knew that. But we had to actually attack that particular
procedure and technique, and so we started dealing with this.

**\[42:26\]**

**Q:** Next question is what was Amelia Boynton\'s role in the voting
rights movement in Selma.

**A:** Well first of all, her husband was connected with the Dallas
County Voters League prior to my coming back to Selma, and he was one of
the main persons that I considered to be the holding power of that
organization. And she was connected also with the Voters League, giving
support to his program and she was definitely involved in it, and she
was a dynamic, courageous woman. And when I came back, shortly after I
got back, her husband passed, and then she became more active. In fact,
we used to meet at her office when we were under the injunction.

**\[43:32\]**

And she was just courageous, courageous woman. So she had been out in
the\-- on the battlefield, so to speak, here, even before I came back.
So her role was a role of really trying to encourage, to organize people
to make them keenly aware of their rights. And she would give them
advice about what they should do in order to stand up for their rights.
Not only voting rights, I\'m talking about any other rights.

**\[44:19\]**

**Q:** The teachers march, you directly attributed great importance. You
met at the school where you went to grade school. Could you describe the
route taken from the grade school to the courthouse and indicate the
doorway or the approach you used when the confrontation took place.

**A:** Okay. Clark Elementary School is located on Lawrence Street
across from a project area. We came out of the door of Clark School, we
went south down Lawrence Street to Alabama Avenue. We proceeded then
west on Alabama Avenue down to the courthouse.

**\[45:32\]**

We formed a line on Alabama Avenue with a line starting at the steps of
the courthouse on the Alabama Avenue side, because you got a lot of
\...(inaudible) Alabama Avenue side to the courthouse. So then on the
Alabama Avenue side, the line was formed from the steps, extending
westward. And I think there might have been six or eight steps going up
to the door of the courthouse on the Alabama street side. And that\'s
where the deputies and the sheriff were standing across the doorway with
their billy clubs and so forth and so on at that time.

**\[46:32\]**

**Q:** The next one, we\'ve heard in some of the interviews and some of
the literature we\'ve read, and of course everybody remembers my age.
These two people are too young to remember him, Sheriff Clark. Sheriff
Clark in many ways, if you wanted to pick a person to give the movement
a good image, he would be a person that reflects the stereotype of the
southern law enforcement person who likes to throw his weight around.
Would you give us your evaluation of Jim Clark?

END OF #510

BEGINNING OF #511

**\[00:14\]**

**A:** Jim Clark, who was the sheriff of Dallas County, represented that
segment of the community, he felt, that really wanted to maintain the
status quo. He acted with the thought of some other officials that he
felt he represented and wanted to also maintain the status quo here, and
he felt he had the backing, and in fact he did. Because the injunction
that I mentioned earlier that I received in 1964 was given by Judge
James Hare. And of course\--

**Q:** I\'m going to ask you about next, so \...(inaudible)

**\[01:19\]**

**A:** Okay. So then he was the type of individual, Judge Hare, who
really was perceived by some blacks, and I imagine rightly so by some
whites, that he had a weird philosophy about blacks. He was extreme, if
you want to say a racist, he felt that blacks were inferior. He had this
weird thing about blacks, and even where blacks came from, this type of
thing.

Well anyway, he was the judge and he issued the injunction. Clark felt
comfortable with trying to enforce that injunction. And Clark acted in
an atmosphere of representing that particular segment of the community
that was\-- that represented the segregationists, those that represented
keeping the community segregated, and those who saw nothing wrong with
all acts of discrimination that had transpired in the past and that
would transpire in the future. So he felt he had the backing. And
therefore he used that to intimidate, to harass.

**\[02:50\]**

Even when we would have in 1964, when we would have sometimes 500 people
standing in line from the Lauderdale Street side of the courthouse all
around, winding around the court house down the Alabama Avenue side,
down Church Street side, which is the next street down, middle of that,
standing in line to be registered, he would go up and down the line and
find some person standing out, push him back in the line, some reason to
harass them. And when standing in line, the line sometime would be
inside the courthouse leading to the door to the Board of Registrar. And
there was another person inside the Board of Registrar\'s office who was
almost just about as bad as Jim Clark. But\--

**\[03:53\]**

**Q:** Who was he?

**A:** Victor\-- hm. His last name is skipping me right now. But anyway,
I\'ll get back to that. But he would come out with deodorant spray, go
down the halls to insinuate that we don\'t want you here and you\'re
fumigating the halls and this type of thing. And Jim Clark would
sometimes be on the outside\-- Atkins is his last name, Atkins, the
person that I had reference to, who was chairman of\--

**\[04:26\]**

**Q:** The Registrar.

**A:** Right. And he and Clark would come out and be on the outside on
the Lauderdale Street side with his billy club and finding some reason
to get people in line and anything and to make certain statements that
might represent in the possibility of threats of violence and this type
of thing. In fact, in one instance I remember the picture that probably
you\'ve seen of this lady with Jim Clark on the ground, that type of
thing.

**\[05:06\]**

So but that was the kind of atmosphere and I think the whole aim was to
generate in the minds of black, you know, fear, that connected with the
right to vote was a possibility of violence and therefore that would
discourage people, particularly elderly people who said, \"Well, I
don\'t want to have violence or this kind of disturbance, I don\'t want
to be involved.\" And that was the whole aim, to keep the people from
becoming registered. So that\'s the kind of atmosphere he operated in.

**\[05:42\]**

And of course now he was the symbol of resistance I say in the South,
because he would go to different other places in the South and he\'d
make his speeches and say, those persons who had the same philosophy
that he was espousing, then they accepted Jim Clark and he would go and
he would be like an advisor in other communities about how to handle
situations.

So I saw him as a pawn in the hand of the establishment doing what they
wanted done, so then he\'s representing them. He was a prime person to
get done what we wanted.

**\[06:35\]**

**Q:** What would have happened if\-- or would the establishment have
suffered a person that had been more diplomatic as sheriff, who maybe
thrown obstacles in their way but not thrown his weight around, billy
club.

**A:** We would not have achieved\--

**Q:** He\'s an ideal man.

**\[07:03\]**

**A:** Yes. He would not have\-- we would not have achieved with the
same rapidity, nor would we have reached the goals that we had set if
there had been a person who even like Wilson Baker\--

**Q:** That\'s the next one I was going to get to.

**A:** \--who was a little more diplomatic and he was a little more
political-minded from the standpoint of being able to know how far to go
and yet not give too much but just enough to hopefully pacify. So then
had Jim Clark been another person, as you said, who was more diplomatic,
we would have not reached the goal we did at such speed as we did.

**\[08:00\]**

**Q:** In certain ways for the movement he was the ideal\--

**A:** Ideal person.

**Q:** You couldn't have created a better person.

**A:** There\'s not a better person on earth than Jim Clark in 1965. In
fact, at one meeting we, was almost jokingly, but we gave him the Civil
Rights Plaque of Honor for being such a good supporter of the civil
rights movement.

**\[08:32\]**

**Q:** Judge Hare, Clark representing the establishment, probably the
way that they would be better off \...(inaudible) not having represented
them. In the white community, did you have many supporters in the local
community such as we\'ve heard remarks on the Lewises.

**\[09:00\]**

**A:** Yes. There were certain whites who were situated financially and
had the kind of influence where it didn\'t particularly matter that they
were on the peripheral, would lend certain support and be involved to
some small degree, in many instances behind the scene, and yet not being
blatantly open to actually irritate a large section of the white
community. But they were considered to be men and women of their own,
not necessarily dictated by others. But there again, they had a certain
distance that they went, and the procedure, the technique they used, was
quite diplomatic.

**Q:** Do you particularly remember Muriel and Art Lewis?

**\[10:17\]**

**A:** Yes, I remember him very well.

**Q:** Any comments on?

**A:** Well actually, you know, I thought that they were people who
really represented some degree of courage and also people that you could
really feel somewhat comfortable knowing the kind of chances they had
taken, not knowing what might have been the response of the white
community. But I feel they were courageous people and felt that they
gave support to a certain degree that was very helpful in getting us
where we wanted to go. I considered them as a pretty good friend.

**\[11:08\]**

In fact, it was, I think must have been \'67 that I was engaged in
buying an automobile, getting an automobile, and it was in fact I think
it was an automobile that his wife had a demonstration automobile that I
purchased from the Buick place that they were associated with. And the
reason I purchased from there was because I felt he was a pretty good
person to deal with.

**Q:** How about Ralph Smeltzer?

**\[11:51\]**

**A:** Yes. Smeltzer came down, was a religious\-- he represented, I\'ve
forgotten the exact religious group that he represented, but he came
down as kind of a mediator person who kind of moved around between the
opposing forces to try to bring about some hopefully understanding that
could be reached to bring about the achievement or the goal that we\'re
trying to reach, because you had flaps on both sides, and so he was
somewhat of a mediator.

**\[12:36\]**

**Q:** Were you present at the protest by the CWCA, Concerned White
Citizens of Alabama, the organization, the group by Reverend Elwinger
(?), the Lutheran minister? Does that ring a bell at all?

**A:** Yeah, I remember Elwinger and I remember the father Elwinger
was\-- well he was, I tell you, I think at one point he was the only
white member of the Dallas County Voters League. And he had a son, if I
recall correctly\-- been so long now\-- that was associated, I don\'t
know whether he was in Birmingham at that point or somewhere, but then
he became involved. And of course Elwinger was very open in his
association here with the movement, and he stands out very vividly.

**\[13:46\]**

Now, so far as this particular meeting that you\'re talking about, I\'m
sure that I was somewhere around, but all the activities connected at
that time, I don\'t recall all of those.

**Q:** On the 17th day of February up\-- 18th day of February up in
Marion, Jimmie Lee Jackson was shot and beaten. What effect\-- did that
have much of an effect down here, 20 miles off, down in\-- on the
movement here in Selma?

**\[14:28\]**

**A:** Yes. Selma was somewhat of the center of activity. It was from
Selma that you had spin-off in the other surrounding communities for
this movement. Marion was one of those communities. And when that took
place, the death of Jimmie Lee Jackson, that was very well tied in,
because you had people commuting really to Marion and back here to
Selma. It was just a constant going and coming. And because several
times I went down to Marion at the mass meeting down there, and then you
had subsequently down here in Lowndes County, you know, surrounding
counties.

**\[15:26\]**

So then, but when that took place\-- and by the way, I was teaching
still, and I recall that I asked the superintendent if I could be
excused to go to my brother\'s funeral. Well, prior to that time the
superintendent and I really had words, ever since I became president of
the teachers association, and I did not relinquish at all the right to
participate or do whatever, and whatever the consequences were, then I
was willing to accept them. I made my own decisions about my
participation. And of course my contract was not renewed after 1965
however here in the city.

**Q:** \...(inaudible)

**\[16:24\]**

**A:** After \'65. But anyway, at that particular point I had asked the
superintendent if I could be absent, because I knew he was not going to,
because he had called me in prior to that time when I made that request
and reminded me of my absence from my classroom. I have no bones about
it. I felt that students could learn more at that time in the streets
than they could in the classroom. It was a kind of laboratory as far as
I was concerned. And I made no bones about it, I encouraged
participation in the movement. In fact, I would leave school, because
most kids were out in the street anyway. There weren\'t many people in
school. And so I wound up with the students.

**\[17:26\]**

In fact, I encouraged them to go out, because I felt that at that
particular point somewhere along the line the right to vote had to be
obtained and those same students who would have been in the classroom
still would have been second-class citizens, and I felt being involved
would be very advantageous to those students. And of course I was out
there with them too. And many times the superintendent would look on the
news, the six o\'clock news, instead of me being in the classroom I\'d
be leading a group of students and people down at the courthouse.

**\[18:14\]**

And of course he called me in at that particular day when I made the
request to go to Jimmie Lee Jackson\'s funeral, reminding me that he was
aware that I had absented myself from class, responsibility, and if I
knew what I was doing. I told him I was very much aware of what I was
doing, and while I was there I wanted him to give me permission to go
down to my brother\'s funeral, Jimmie Lee Jackson. But you know, he
raged. But anyway, I was going anyway, regardless. That was not\-- I
only asked him since he raised the question.

**\[18:57\]**

But I went to Jimmie Lee Jackson\'s funeral that day and of course that
and people from Selma left here to go on there. So it was kind of a
community type situation, because we felt close to those people out in
Marion because they were trying to do some of the same things that we
had started here, so that\'s\-- it had an effect.

**Q:** In the years since 1965, would you be sitting where you are now
if it hadn\'t made a difference? Would you give us a number of
differences that have occurred in Dallas and Selma because of the march,
which galvanized one of the most important events, the Voting Rights
Act, and what it means to vote as a black man, as an American and as a
successful administrator and worker for better racial relations in Selma
and Dallas County \...(inaudible)?

**\[20:18\]**

**A:** Ok, well, first of all, it meant that blacks not only in Dallas
County but all over the nation could feel comfortable with the right to
vote as guaranteed by the constitution. And Selma and Dallas County, as
I mentioned, at that time we had about 15,000 eligible. And of course I
don\'t know the exact number but we had\-- because we had, because we
had to put it in the books (?) here, but I\'m sure that county-wide now
we have more black registered voters than we do white, which I should
imagine 18-20,000 black voters. And of course now city-wide the whites
could still have an edge, city-wide, but not county-wide.

**\[21:23\]**

So then increase in black representation at the polls. We\'ve had
increase\-- well, we had blacks then being represented on the city
council. I served on the city council for 12 years. Now on the county
commission for the first time, and by the way, blacks now have the
majority on the Dallas County Commission. Blacks serve now on the Dallas
County Board of Education, also the City Board of Education. The City
Board of Education has majority black members.

In \'65 you didn\'t have blacks serving as cashiers in the various
establishments here. We do have blacks now in the banks. That\'s a long
story too, we can talk about that, what\'s involved in. Since 1965 we
have blacks on the\-- as deputies, sheriff deputies. We have more blacks
on this city police force. Didn\'t have any blacks as firemen at that
time, but we do have blacks now, firemen.

**\[23:02\]**

You have blacks holding leading positions in federal programs here. The
Community Action Agency, black director. You have increased
representation on the various boards in the city as well as the county
now. And of course education-wise, well you know, well you see I\'m
sitting here. But you have a black superintendent.

**\[23:48\]**

All of these things and many other things have transpired since then,
but all these things came about as a result of the 1965 Voting Rights
Act. You have a heighten of self-esteem, self-respect. You have blacks
now who thought there was no hope and could only see an America that was
really laden with great acts of discrimination, segregated society and
blacks being systematically kept from enjoying all of these rights
guaranteed by the constitution. But now there seemed to be hope now. And
we know that blacks have more responsibility in shaping their destiny
than ever before. When I say that, after having\-- receiving the right
to vote, then it\'s up to you to go vote. That\'s the point.

**\[25:13\]**

And to develop a greater quality of life in the community, in America,
to be able to work together as people, black, white, red and yellow, to
share in the resources of our country, to be involved in allowing all
citizens the right to participate in this mainstream that we call this
vessel America, and to do that it\'s most appropriate to maximize the
use of all these resources, both human and natural resources in our
great country. This idea of this America was brought about because of
the right to vote, in a sense.

**\[26:28\]**

**Q:** And why what you just said so eloquently is all a legacy of what
happened here in the march. Now if you were Parks Services site-oriented
and trail site-oriented, if you were given the responsibility of
identifying for some type of wayside exhibit, interpretive exhibits that
would be linked along this historic trail, leading from the Selma area
to the capitol in Montgomery, what would you say are the most important
sites as you would see along this trail of history and to the legacy
\...(inaudible)?

**\[27:23\]**

**A:** Well I guess you would start\-- I don\'t know, I guess you would
start with Selma here and looking at the various locations of the
churches and other buildings of importance\--

**Q:** \...(inaudible) identify what you think are the most important.

**A:** Okay. Standing out in\-- because let me make this statement first
of all. During the time we were holding mass meetings, at a point now we
rotated mass meetings around these churches, before that injunction was
issued in 1964. But standing out vividly in 1963 we had Tabernacle
Baptist Church as being the place where that first meeting was held and
so forth and so on.

**\[28:17\]**

And then\-- well, the meeting\-- Dr. King came through here back in
1961, \'62 or \'63, whatever, and he had a meeting at AME Zion Church on
Green Street here. Now, he was just passing through at that\-- that\'s
before the movement really got all\-- I\'m just making this statement.

But now dealing with the 1965, I would say Tabernacle, First Baptist,
Brown Chapel. Of course there were other churches now, because you had
the Catholic church open their doors. When I say church I mean open
their facilities. Sometimes we would meet in the fellowship hall there
for meetings, strategizing for the next movement, and other churches,
you know, I can name other churches. Now\--

**\[29:47\]**

**Q:** The more important ones.

**A:** Well I think I named the more important ones in the movement.
Those churches. Yes.

**\[30:04\]**

So then and in this trail from Brown Chapel and down Sylvan Street at
that time, it\'s Martin Luther King now, that\'s the name of it.
There\'s a story behind that also. I was able to get that through the
council when I was on the council. Changed the name of Sylvan Street to
Dr. Martin Luther King Street. That was a show.

But the trail down Martin Luther King at this time to Alabama, and
sometimes we would stop at the Public Safety Building. At that time it
was the city hall, where the mayor was. And other times we would go on
straight on down Alabama, because the city hall is on Alabama too, the
front of it, and down further to the \...(inaudible) down further we had
the courthouse. So that trail.

**\[31:07\]**

Naturally the bridge is always a symbol. And of course I don\'t know
what\-- I see during the point of confrontation that field behind. I
don\'t know, that field rests with me some kind of way, because that\'s
where those marchers really had to retreat to to get out of the gas.

**Q:** Is the brick building still there that you \...(inaudible)

**A:** I think the brick building is still there. There was a
mattress\-- I think it was a mattress company. I need to\--

**\[31:45\]**

**Q:** Which side of the road was that on?

**A:** It was on the east side. The east side of the road. You see,
going across the bridge, on either side is east and west. You\'re going
north\-- I mean, you\'re going south. You\'re going across the bridge
from here. You\'re headed south across the bridge.

**\[32:02\]**

**Q:** It would be on the left.

**A:** It would be on the left, east. And of course going down the
highway and so forth, whatever type of market or whatever, but then the
first leg of the march, each leg of the march\--

**Q:** The campsite that night.

**\[32:24\]**

**A:** That\'s right. I think it should be, you know. And I don\'t know
what you could do to get some of those people who were on that march\--
I don\'t know how far you want to get into this anyway. But some of
those people, I don\'t know what kind of memorabilia they might have.
You might want to give if there was a place designated along the trail
that this is what I would like to submit, if there was a place somewhere
indicating certain items or certain things. I\'m talking now in terms of
something other than a marker. I don\'t know what you have in mind, but
I\'m just saying this.

**\[33:35\]**

You know, like I have a pair of shoes that I wore to that march, a pair
of Hush Puppies. And by the way, it was\-- was it last year when we
marched? We had a gathering with Montgomery and we marched from Saint
Jude School down to the capitol, and I wore the same shoes. But now
grant you, when I got there the seam\-- I had to get those shoes glued
back together\-- the seam was so rotten until I had\-- it split there.
That reminded me, I had to glue it back. But I\'d be willing to submit
those to somebody, and some other paraphernalia that I have.

**\[34:79\]**

But I\'m sure that you have that kind of thing, and I\'m not sure
whether that\'s within the preview(?) of your concern at this point, but
I know you\'re concerned about the trail, I understand that too. But
certainly the ground where those performers really performed that night,
and of course along the trail, and then the field where we gathered to
really organize for the final leg to the capitol. Yes. Because I can see
the picture now in my mind.

**Q:** That\'s what we want to get. We want to mark these places so
people 200 years from now, 500 years from now \...(inaudible).

**\[35:45\]**

**A:** And naturally, of course we were saddened by Mrs. Viola Liuzzo\'s
death. So along the trail somewhere there could be marked in some way.
These things come to mind.

I know that many people would be\-- I sometimes think about this\-- many
people in Selma I\'m sure have pictures, they have items that were
connected with that movement. And they have their own stories, because I
know you have to pick out the most\-- such thing as important points,
but tremendous stories of individual involvement that played an integral
part in making the movement what it was here in Selma.

**\[37:10\]**

It was probably the\-- well, after 1964 Public Accommodations Act was
passed, when Dr. King went to Lyndon Baines Johnson and requested
support for another civil rights bill through congress and he told them,
wait, it just passed, the 1964 Public Accommodations Act, how can you
even imagine the congress passing another civil rights bill in 1965?

Well, he left and came back and Selma was sitting ready. And I think
that Selma was ready because we had set the tone. The tone was already
set when Dr. King came in, was here. It was just a fertile ground to
plant a seed that would grow and would spring up into a movement that
was mature, that ended up in Congress passing the 1965 Voting Rights
Act.

**\[38:30\]**

**Q:** So in other words, you\'re a strong supporter of the proposal?

**A:** Oh definitely. Definitely.

**Q:** \...(inaudible) a few remarks with your eloquence there, and even
the most conservative one in congress would have to support it.

**A:** So suddenly it has my most ardent and 100% support,
recommendation.

**Q:** \...(inaudible)

**\[39:16\]**

**A:** You mean I covered everything?

**\_\_:** You\'re very outstanding.

**\[39:20\]**

**Q:** Because you covered the narrative so well and then all we had
were the ones\-- you covered most, 75% of the questions except the kind
of nit-picking ones that I had to come in with you later.

**A:** My good pleasure.

**Q:** There must have been a \...(inaudible) time when you came back
here and got yourself registered. Have you always thought of what the
importance of coming back to Wilcox County? What made you come back to
Wilcox?

**\[39:54\]**

**A:** Well, basically my mother was here. I was born here to my family,
and\--

**Q:** \...(inaudible)

**A:** Yeah. My mother was somewhat ill and I wanted to come back home
to kind of be in the vicinity of my mother, who at that time was
somewhat ill. But I\'ll say this, I don\'t give any credit to myself
anything, by the way. I believe that the Lord really used me as an
instrument. I only saw myself as an instrument in the hand of God.

**\[40:46\]**

**Q:** The way of the Lord \...(inaudible) Sheriff Clark in that
position for the ideal person.

**A:** That\'s right. The right time.

**Q:** Instead of having someone like Baker as the sheriff.

**\[40:59\]**

**A:** Pure act of providence. It was a pure act of providence that I
was in the right place, which means I was President of the Teachers
Association and the Voters League, and had the right influence with the
right people, with the right commitment to bring about a change.

**Q:** And make that decision on the teachers march at the right moment,
the right day.

**A:** Exactly right.

**Q:** With the right reaction when you got there.

**\[41:30\]**

**A:** Right. Exactly right. Looking back, that\'s it. That\'s it. You
see yourselves as, as I said, instruments, and feeling proud that you
were chosen as a vessel.

**Q:** That you were chosen as an instrument was a great design.

**A:** Yes.

**Q:** Thank you so much.

**A:** Thank you.

**Q:** Thank you. And I\'m sorry that we\--

**A:** That\'s all right.

## END OF INTERVIEW