\<crew talk\>

Q: Mr. Wallace, may we'd start with\-- if you'd just introduce yourself
to us, please, and tell us a little bit about yourself.

**Jamie Wallace:** I'm **Jamie Wallace:** And I've been very fortunate
to have been uh.. in most of my adult life, here in Selma, Alabama. I
initially worked for the *Selma Times Journal*, and later was editor of
that newspaper. Covered the civil rights era here in Selma. And then
went into radio for 17 years. And ended my career of 17 year, president
of the Selma Dallas County Chamber of Commerce. So I've seen a lot of
history in Selma, Alabama, in throughout those years.

Q: Well, welcome! We're very curious about that history, obviously.
Maybe you could take us back to\-- they call it the "Jim Crowe" era\--
maybe you'd describe a little about that time, and maybe kind of set for
us your impressions during that era.

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, certainly it was a period of uh.. segregation
throughout, not only the school system, which has gotten a lot of
attention through the years. But your public facilities, and\-- but most
of all uh.. there was a- a lack of minority uh.. voters registered to
vote throughout the State of Alabama, as well as poor whites. Uh.. the
laws were designed so that not only would they prevent minorities from
registering in a great number, but also preventing poor whites from
registering as well. And I recall when I graduated from the University
of Alabama in 19 uh.. 58, I went to\-- I was going to register to vote,
and uh.. my friend of mine said, "Do you know the preamble to the
Constitution?" And I said, "Well, I don't know it word for word." He
said, "Well, you better refresh your memory, because you may be asked
that when you go to register to vote." And sure enough, when I
registered to vote, I had to- I had to uh.. to tell them the preamble of
the constitution. Of course, I did, and- and I was registered. But can
you imagine a person who has little or no education, going to a board of
registrars, and being asked to uh.. recited the preamble of the
constitution, and other questions that they had to fill out on a long
questionnaire as well. So that was one method that was used to prevent
uh.. uneducated people from being able to register to vote. And then
there were other methods that were used as well. There was something
called a voucher system, whereas, you had to have another registered
voter, who was a property owner in that county come with you to the
board of registrars and vouch for you. And of course, there were very
few people who were willing to do that, because of the economic
pressures that could be brought on them if they did so. The pole tax was
not a factor. It was probably two dollar pole tax, which wouldn't have
been a factor. Some people set that up as a big factor, but I d\-- I
never saw it as a deterrent as much as the other things were involved.
But during that period of time, you had a lot of veterans coming back
from the Korean War, and even some World War II veterans, of course.
They were coming back. They had been able to fight for their country,
they were minorities, and yet, when they got home, they couldn't
register to vote! And they began to ask questions. "Why can't I register
to vote? I can serve my country and be shot at, but I can't register to
vote!" So I think the very bedrock of the voting rights movement started
from those uh.. men who came back from- from the army, or the military
during that period of time. And uh.. as we say now, "The rest is
history." Uh.. the movement started here in Selma, the voting rights
movement started here in Selma, and moved on from that.

Q: We talked briefly earlier. Why Selma? Why did this become the focal
point? And really the kind of\-- the genesis of the movement?

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, Dr. King never went anywhere that he wasn't
invited. He did not invite himself to somebody else's party. So uh.. he
had- he had worked uh.. in a voting rights movement in- in Albany,
Georgia, and had not been successful there. So he was looking for
another area, and there was an established uh.. organization here that
had been active for several years prior to this time in late 1964. the
voting rights, uh.. the National Voter's League\-- or the Dallas County
Voter's League, I should say, and Reverend F.D. Reece \[ph?\]. So the
Voter's League got together, and invited Dr. King to come to Selma to
lead voting rights marches early in 1965. And it was a natural uh..
historic thing to that, too, because Mrs. King was from adjoining Perry
County. Uh.. Ambassador Young's wife\-- his late wife\-- was from Perry
County as well. So they had family here. They had friends here. There
was uh.. a- an educated group here of teachers and- and so forth. There
was a- a black business community here that could help support. And
there was a willingness on the part of the churches to foster this kind
of relationship with the organization. So it was a natural to come to
Selma, Alabama. But of course, there also was Jim Clark, the Sheriff of
Dallas County, who wore a big "Never" button, uh.. saying, "Never." Uh..
and of course, you'd look at that, and you'd think, "Well, that means
"never," I'm never gonna be able to vote." That's the way it was
interpreted. So there were a lot of factors involved. Uh.. but I think
the fact that Reverend Reece and his organization was willing to sponsor
this in Selma, Alabama was a major factor.

\<crew talk\>

Q: If we could pick back up to kind of the climate of Selma and it's
role of being the initiator of the movement. You were telling us about
proximity, economy. The African-Americans here were educated and ready
to take this initiative.

**Jamie Wallace:** Uh.. Selma, by nature, it's location has always been
looked upon also as kind of the center of what we call the Black Belt in
Alabama. Not meaning Black people, but the soil that we have here
throughout the years, going back into the 1800's. Selma was a commercial
and center of this section of Alabama. So it also was a natural that
people would come in here from throughout our area. So that was another
reason to have uh.. the voting rights movement centered in Selma. Uh..
but in nearby Marion, Alabama, there\-- a great deal of work had been
done also over there, because as I said, that was Mrs. King's home
county. In fact, her mother and father ran a little country store over
there. But uh.. I- I think there\-- all the factors that I mentioned
uh.. concerning Selma, probably uh.. figured into the movement actually
starting here. And uh.. of course, uh.. you know, once it all started,
the name Selma's pretty well-known pretty much throughout the world now.

Q: You're absolutely right! Was the discrimination overt or indirect and
subtle? How did it take shape here?

**Jamie Wallace:** You know, uh.. actually the board of registrars in
Dallas County, uh.. you have to understand the way the Board of
Registrars was set up back in those days. There was three people on the
Board of Registrars. And by state law they could only meet twice a
month. And had all this paperwork that the state had endowed them with.
And even they had wanted to register a lot of minorities, they\-- the
best they could have done was probably twelve each day. And if they did
twelve, then they had one day that they registered people, and then they
had a day that they did paperwork. And that was the only two days they
were authorized to work during the month. So you're not talking about a
full-time board of registrars. But actually, in Dallas County they had
registered probably 300 uh.. blacks, which was probably the best in the
state, as far as registration was concerned. But certainly it was uh..
it was not- not nearly what, you know, it should've been. Don't get me
wrong. I'm not defending them, I'm just saying there were some uh..
reasons that they didn't register more people though than just a- an
outright uh.. unwillingness to do so. Now did they make it tough on
people registering? Yes, they did. It was scary to go up there to
register to vote. Uh.. but there was some state laws that- that uh..
precluded you from doing some things that some of the counties might
have done had they been able to do so. So the blame can't all be placed
at the feet of local registrars. It also has to be placed at the feet of
uh.. of state government.

Q: That whole\-- the criteria for registration, you mentioned some of
that. The preamble, and some other things, was that specifically
designed to avoid African-Americans registering, or was that just a
general way that the system worked?

**Jamie Wallace:** It was, I think, specifically designed to- to uh..
prevent African-Americans and poor whites from registering to vote. And
it was a- a system that had been set up by the Alabama Constitution of
1901, which\-- some of which is still in effect today, not dealing with
registration, because the federal courts have changed much of that. But
uh.. it was a system that had been in place since 1901, when the
planters, meaning the plantation owners, the big farmers in Alabama
actually had taken back state government from the reconstruction period.
And they said, you know, we're not gonna let this happen again. So they
set up laws that would preclude minorities and poor whites from
registering to vote.

Q: Was there a clash of\-- if I were here in that era\-- would I see
overt discrimination. Would that be an obvious thing, or was it subtle?

**Jamie Wallace:** Some of it was subtle, some of it was- was just
brazen. Some of it was wide open. But some of it was subtle. Uh..
economic reprisals that might be taken against someone was very subtle.
And uh.. unless you were the one that uh.. that was the victim. But it
was very subtle. And of course, there was an unwillingness by many
people to speak out. Both white and black. Uh.. speak out on it because
of the friendships, and uh.. and not wanting to rock the boat, so to
speak. Uh.. I happened to work for a newspaper, that if you looked at
our editorial policy today, you'd say, "Well, that wasn't very strong."
But we- we took a stance that uh.. was not usually taken in the Deep
South. In which we said uh.. "We must change. But we can do it
ourselves." 'Cause prior to the voting rights march, there had been a
biracial committee of businessmen\-- black and white\-- meeting in Selma
for some time trying to affect change. And uh.. there were certain
obstacles that they weren't over to\-- able to overcome, or else we
might've had some change underway. Of course, the change would not
nearly have been as swift as it was under federal court order. But uh..
I think, you know, change would've come. But it would not have been as
fast as it did under federal court order.

Q: You were a young man returning from the service. You were anxious to
get back to Selma? This is where you wanted to live.

**Jamie Wallace:** Uh.. I was very anxious to get back here. As I said,
I had been a reporter here. I'd been sports editor of the newspaper
here. And uh.. I had been promised a job here when I returned from the
military. And I'd served 21 months in Germany during the Berlin Crisis.
Uh.. and I came back with the newspaper. And of course, I got back in
uh.. in November, just as\-- days after President Kennedy had been
assassinated in fact. I got back uh.. into Selma, went back to work, and
we were immediately confronted with- with the voting rights movement.

Q: And did that polarize your friends and relatives?

**Jamie Wallace:** It- it polarized some friendships. Uh.. there was a
feeling here that if we didn't cover the events\-- and we made the
conscious decision that we would- we would cover it as it was. We would
tell the truth, and we would present the picture as it was, and of
course, that was not very popular with some people in Selma. It was not
popular with some of subscribers. Their feeling was, "If y'all'd just
stay out from down there, and don't run all these pictures, and do
stories, well, this'll go away!" And we said, "No, it's not going away.
That our being there is not causing this to be here." Now we did have
some st\-- large papers in this state that would cover Selma marches,
but would not cover one outside their own door. And that was an economic
decision for them. So we- we found that rather peculiar, and- and we
weren't real happy with it, to be honest with you. But uh.. we did what
we needed to do journalistically, and ethically. And uh.. and I think in
the long run we're the winners for it.

Q: Well, the whole nation, the whole world is. I think you can take
great pride in that. Looking back, did your family argue on either side
of these issues? Or was it just accepted?

**Jamie Wallace:** My family\-- uh.. my brother and I, there was two-
two sons in my father and mother's family\-- my\-- our families had been
entwined with black people all of our lives. My father was uh.. worked
for the Norfolk Southern Railroad for 50 years. And uh.. he was always
looked upon as an extremely fair person. And so there was- there was
never a hint of racism in our home. So uh.. while they may have
disagreed philosophically with certain things that uh.. transpired, uh..
you know, they weren't real excited about the marches every day. And
they weren't real excited about me being down there every day, 'cause
they thought I was in harm's way. I never looked at it like that. But
uh.. uhm.. there was some consternation about that. But I think they
understood also that e- every person deserved the right to vote.

Q: So the editorial policy was pretty well accepted on both sides of the
street, so to speak.

**Jamie Wallace:** It was. We had some advertising boycotts against us.
We had some\-- we lost some subscribers. And uh.. every now and then, we
probably lost a friend, uh.. because we were there. And uh.. there were
publications that were writing scandalous stories about it. Things that
were tra- trans\-- that were o- occurring in the- in the area of brown
chapel and things like that. Which did not happen. And we were being
taken to task daily about, "Well, why aren't y'all telling the truth?"
And we'd say, "We *are* telling the truth!" And "We can't\..." uh.. you
know, "We can't help what they might be doing, or what they're writing."

Q: I know there were lots of allegations about orgies and all kinds of
things. Were those reported in the paper? Were those\...

**Jamie Wallace:** Not in our paper they were not! And not in what I
consider legitimate news stories, they were not. Because we never saw
any- any of that. And we were there 17/18 hours a day, virtually seven
days a week during that period of time. 'Cause we only had three
reporters on staff. And somebody had to write the obituaries. Somebody
had to do the other things that a newspaper has to do, in addition to
this. So we- we kind of uh.. in one of our- our uh.. managing editor was
uh.. authorized by the newspaper, and by the city to be one of the
negotiators for the City of Selma, with all of the- the envoys from
President Johnson, and uh.. and others who were on the negotiating team.
And he was with them. So a lot of the\-- his time was spent\-- taken up
with the negotiating team. So uh.. that left two of us uh.. a lot of
times to do a lot of the legwork.

Q: It's been suggested to us that the death of Jimmy Lee Jackson in
Marion was kind of the flashpoint. Could you tell us a little about
that?

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, I really\-- uh.. uh.. other than what I've
read\-- we weren't actually involved in covering that. Uh.. but it- it
did uh.. add, I think, an immense uh.. fuel to the flame. Uh.. even
though there were lots of rumors, uh.. counter rumors, uh.. other things
about what happened that night over there. But it- it did help matters
here in this respect, uh.. we had a- a public safety director named
Wilson Baker, who I think is one of the heroes of Selma. Uh.. Wilson was
one of the first educated, college graduate, law enforcement people in
the State of Alabama. He was brought here by Mayor Joe Smitherman
\[ph?\], who had just been elected in 1964, had defeated an entrenched
political uh.. party here. And brought Mr. Baker back to Selma as his
public safety director. Well, uh.. Mr. Baker was a uh.. a realist. In
fact, uh.. did almost the unheard of uh.. when it was determined that
Dr. King was coming here. Mr. Baker flew to Washington, and met with
Attorney General Katzenbach, and former Attorney General Kennedy, and
said, "Gentlemen, Dr. King is coming to my city. What should I do?" And
one of the great stories out of that meeting, uh.. General Kennedy said,
"Use the marshmallow theory." And Mr. Baker said, uh.. "Senator Kennedy,
I don't understand." And he said, "Well, if you push a marshmallow
against a brick wall, you leave a lot of marsh\-- and pull it off, you
leave a lot of marshmallow. But if you press a marshmallow against a
flexible object, you don't leave marshmallow." He said, "I understand.
You're saying non-violence against non-violence." And that was Mr.
Baker's policy. You won't find any history of any incident in this city
during all of those weeks and months where a city policeman was involved
in an altercation with a demonstrator. But I say that to- to get back to
Jimmy Lee Jackson. That was a nighttime incident in Marion. On occasion,
Hosea Williams, who was the cheerleader for the movement, Hosea came up
with the idea that they'd have a night march in Selma. And Mr. Baker
went to- to uh.. Ambassador Young and other leaders, and said, "To this
point, I have not interfered with y'all. But if you attempt a night
march, I will have to stop it. Because I cannot protect you on a night
march." Well, Hosea knew that he was right, because Hosea had been
beaten badly in St. Augustine, Florida, an earlier situation. So they
called off the night march. But the Jimmy Lee Jackson situation very
likely was the catalyst for not having the night march here. And so I
think, it helped a great deal that we didn't have night marches here.
And it was- it- it was good level-headed thinking on the part of Mr.
Baker and the movement in not having night marches. But Mr. Baker and
Sheriff Clark were bitter, bitter enemies. They did not like each other,
they did not agree with each other. And you have to understand that once
the demonstrators left their headquarters at Brown Chapel, and marched
to the Dallas County Courthouse, which is probably five blocks, once
they got to the courthouse square, they were in Sheriff Clark's
jurisdiction. 'Cause uh.. constitutionally in Alabama, the sheriff is\--
his- his constitutional duties, among others, is to protect the sanctity
of the court. And Judge James Hare was a circuit judge, and held court
in the courthouse on the second floor, and with demonstrators walking
around outside the courthouse, Judge Hare would send down a court order,
ordering them to cease and to disband, because they were disturbing the
court. And Sher- Sheriff Clark would come out on the courthouse steps,
wave the order, read it, and said, "I'm giving you ten minutes. Disband.
Or else you're gonna get in those busses over there." Well, they didn't,
and he did. Took them to a- a former National Guard armory, booked them,
and released them on their own recognizance, and the same people were
back at the courthouse at 2:00 in the afternoon! So it really wasn't a
deterrent at all. But it was a- a show of force. But he and Mr. Baker
did not agree philosophically at all. And uh.. later uh.. after the uh..
movement was over, and uh.. or after the demonstrations were over, and
the voting rights bill had been signed into law, or the federal court
order ordering blacks registered, uh.. Mr. Baker ran for Sheriff in 1968
against Sheriff Clark. Defeated him in the primary. In the Democratic
Primary. Sheriff Clark a\-- the most effective writing campaign that
I've ever seen an almost defeated Mr. Baker in the general election! So
he had to run against him twice. 'Course in Alabama today you can't do
that under the Sore Loser Law, they call it. \<laughs\> But back then
you could. But Mr. Baker remained sheriff until his death uh.. quite a-
a great time later. And uh.. and Sheriff Clark, of course, went on to-
to other things after that.

Q: The Sheriff Clark and Mayor Smitherman, you kind of hear different
interpretations of those gentlemen. They were obviously in kind of
difficult positions. How would you characterize the?

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, Mayor Smitherman ran again\-- as I said against
the entrenched uh.. mayor, who's uh.. his uh.. he and his- his followers
had been in office for some time. And before them, he was\-- they were
kind of passing the mayor's chair down from one generation to the next
to the next. Well, Mayor Smitherman was an upstart city councilman, who
was an appliance salesman, who had intended to run for- for mayor in
1968, but his friends talked him into moving that timetable up four
years to- to 1964. And he did, and he won a very bitter campaign. And of
course, he was just in office from about October when Dr. King decided
to come. And he had brought Mr. Baker back. Who\-- Mr. Baker had been on
the police force here at one time. So he brought him back. And Mr. Baker
was strong enough that he could kind of mold and shape opinion. Uh.. and
he had a great deal of influence on the mayor, and saying, "Look Mr.
Mayor, this is what we got to do." Well, it wasn't very popular. Here ya
got a new mayor in, you know, in office that just won, you know, just
eked out a win. He's aggressive, he wants industry in the city, he wants
to do all these things, and here he's got this happening to him. But
uh.. he did\-- he was a good listener. And of course, he remained the
mayor of this city for 36 years. And so he had to do something right. He
was a populace mayor. Uh.. the previous administration had indicated
that they wouldn't take federal funds, because too many strings were
attached, that it was tainted money. Well, Smitherman's famous
statement\-- saying, when he went into office\-- was, "The only thing
tainted about that money is there t'ain't enough of it!" So that's\--
\<laughs\>\-- oh you gotta get the drift there of a fact that he was a
popular\-- a brick and mortar person uh.. as mayor. And remained in
office for a long period of time, until he ch\-- was defeated in the
last election.

Q: I remember the chronology, that the first flare-up, if you will, was
the teachers' march to the courthouse. Did you cover that?

**Jamie Wallace:** I did. It was on a Friday evening. I think it was
probably\-- and- and uh.. Reverend Reece, and I agree on this\-- we
agree on most everything. And he's- he's a great person. He was the
leader of that march as he was of the voter's league. Uh.. once the- the
teachers up to that point had been reluctant come involved, because they
felt like now that the school board would not renew their contracts.
Well, I- I happened to know the school board, most of them, and I don't
think that would've happened, because they were part of a uh.. movement
in the city that says, "Change has to come." But there was the air there
that they might not. So the teachers had reluc\-- and had been
reluctant, some of them. Well, when this march occurred, you had a c\--
a vast majority of the black teachers in this city\-- Selma City School
System\-- and probably some from Dallas county were involved in this
march. And I really thought that it was a catalyst that set in motion
what was to come in the- in the days ahead. They were the recognized
people. They were the ones that other people had looked up to, because
they were educated, they were teachers in the schools, and they were
principles in the schools, so it had a great impact on- on cat\-- on- on
bringing together the black community in- in support of the movement.

Q: I've looked at a little of that uh.. footage, and there- there's some
real bravery in that conflict. Maybe you could describe that a little
with when Reverend Reece arrived at the courthouse.

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, it was uh.. one of those times, and- and there
were a few of those, uh.. where you could, as they say, cut the tension
with a knife. Because they didn't really know what would happen. Didn't
really know what would happen when they walked up to the courthouse.
Uh.. how Sheriff Clark would treat- treat that uh.. situation. And uh..
fortunately, it didn't, you know, it wasn't\-- it didn't explode\--
we'll put it that way. But I do think that was a real turning point in
the whole- whole time.

Q: When you look back on it then, suddenly the events are happening very
quickly, it seems to me, in such a short amount of time. Maybe you could
take us through those few weeks in there.

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, when you look uh.. look back, uh.. there was a
time when I felt like it went on for two years. But it was really
intensely for about three months. And then you moved from- from all of
these\-- as I call them, almost preliminary events\-- until you got to
the first uh.. you got to the- the first Sunday of March of that year.
And then you had uh.. the group that uh.. was really making a symbolic
march across the bridge. There was\-- I mean, we were very relaxed,
media wise. We were very relaxed mo\-- Dr. King wasn't here. Uh.. when
Dr. King wasn't around, most of the national media departed with him. So
you didn't have a lot of media coverage that day. And we knew there
wasn't a- a serious march to Montgomery, because ladies had on high-heel
shoes, and Sunday dresses, and there had been no uh.. no preparation
made uh.. to go to any further than uh.. than just across the bridge and
kneel and pray. So\-- plus we had uh.. a young man who was Governor
Wallace's legal advisor who was a friend of ours from Selma, and- and
uh.. he had uh.. uh.. told us, I mean, in the local media that morning,
that Sunday morning that- that they'd worked out an agreement of what
could happen, and uh.. that there wouldn't be any trouble. And uh.. so
we were kinda, we walked across the bridge that day, almost leisurely.
But when we got to the top of that bridge, I told a co-worker of mine, I
said, "We got a real problem here." 'Cause I saw t\-- just a horde of
state troopers. I saw sheriff deputies, I saw all these people gathered
up over there. I looked over to my right, and I saw the f\-- mounted
posse. And I said, "We got a real problem here today." And of course,
they came down. Major John Cloud, who was in charge of the uh..
troopers. And ordered them to uh.. to turn around and go back to the
church, or wherever you came from." That was his words. And that they
could pray, and but they would have to turn around and go back. Well,
when they finished praying, they\-- everybody uh.. stood and uh.. and
they didn't move. And he ordered them to move. And the troopers uh.. put
their uh.. their uh.. crowd control uh.. devices\-- better known as
Billy Clubs, I guess\-- up shoulder, and started wading into the crowd,
pushing. Well, once they started pushing, uh.. it was kind of like you
see at a rock concert sometimes. They just started pushing, people
started falling over each other. And then Billy Clubs were swung. People
were hit in the head. Tear gas was fired. And there was a great amount
of panic. And I guess, you know, my greatest fear was that when people
retreated back across the bridge, that they panic to the point that some
of them jumped off. But fortunately, that did not happen. Nobody was-
was, you know, was uh.. there was some\-- a couple of uh.. concussions,
and some scrapes and bruises and things like that. But no grave injuries
from that- that situation. But there again, you had a- a collision
between uh.. Mr. Baker and Sheriff Clark. Because once- once they left
the Selma side of the bridge, the west end of the bridge, and went
across, they entered into Mr. Clark's jurisdiction. Well, Mr. Baker's
sitting there beside the bridge in his vehicle, and once it happens, I
really didn't know what this big guy was gonna do. He weighed about 250
pounds. He was about 6'4", 6'5". Big guy! And I- I tell people now. I
said that ch\-- that car was just jumping up and down he was so mad. And
he actually ordered his policemen to pick up people and take them back
to the church, or out to the hospital uh.. from the scene. And uh..
there was certainly no love lost at that point between Mr. Baker, and-
and Sheriff Clark and the others that were involved in that incident.
But uh.. it- it gave rise, and it g\-- it has given rise to the funny
story that uh.. that Congressman John Lewis tells in his- in his book
about\-- that he Hosea Williams were leading the march and uh.. when
they got to the top of the bridge and they saw all those troopers, and
they saw all those sheriff's deputies over there, he turns to Hosea and
says, "Hosea, can you swim?" And Hosea said, "No, can you, John?" And he
said, "No." He said, "But I think we're fixing to learn how." \<laughs\>
The river was beneath them. So John, who's a great friend of Selma, he
and Mary Smitherman became great friends. And- and uh.. John's been back
here. He's even helped the city here on some projects. And- and uh.. we
call him our most effective congressman sometimes, \<laughs\> in
Washington, at times, during those years. But uh.. it was just a- a
little touch of humor in the midst of a great deal of consternation
there on top of that bridge we found out years later between those two
people.

Q: What were your emotions?

**Jamie Wallace:** My emotions. Well, I'd just come back from military.
I just had gra\-- gas drills two weeks before I rotated back to the
States. Never thought I'd use in my own hometown. But we were gassed
uh.. that by a "friend" of ours, who\-- and the troopers\-- who
definitely knew who we were, but he- he gas\-- he hurled a canister to
us. And- and uh.. I kind of helped my buddies best I could on what to do
and not to do with tear gas. But uh.. it\-- I\-- there are times now I
get emotional when I think about the fact that I- I never had to use my
gas drill training from the military till I got back to my own hometown.

Q: That is quite a comment, isn't it? Let me ask you, so it looks now if
we review that footage, that it was a very violent, maybe "over"
reaction. Did that seem that way in those days?

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, it was a horrible scene. Uh.. there's no doubt
about that. And like I said, uh.. you know, the panic contributed to it.
When the tear gas, and people not having, ever had, any experience with
anything like that. There was a panic situation. And uh.. it was not
a\-- and- and we were angry because we were- we were a community
newspaper. You know, uh.. the other media's gonna be gone to another
location somewhere. And we gotta live here. And we gotta put it all back
together. And we gotta learn to live together. So there- there was an
anger there, because on Friday before he left town, Dr. King had
indicated to some of his people that so far he had not been successful
in Selma, and that\-- you know, they hadn't had any incidents, hadn't
anything. And he was considering going, moving on to Mississippi. And of
course, this event was the catalyst that put it all together, because
President Johnson, who had been much more interested in the Vietnam War,
and the problems he had with it, than he had any voting rights movement,
suddenly saw that film on TV that night, and immediately we- we got
congressmen, senators, uh.. clergy, uh.. union leaders, uh.. people from
throughout the nation converged on Selma within 24 hours. And set in
motion, of course, the- the uh.. three weeks later, the Selma to
Montgomery march.

Q: You brought up a good point earlier that this was maybe the first
live news coverage. Review that for us. And the impressions that
created.

**Jamie Wallace:** It was. Uh.. and you know, for the first time there
were images of people other than talking heads uh.. you know, on your TV
screen, and from the field. Uh.. a guy reporting from the Dallas County
Courthouse. Uh.. live from the Dallas County Courthouse. So it was a- a
new era of television. And of course, that's uh.. I guess that the trend
for today when you have imbedded reporters, and uh.. so many other
things that uh.. the phones, picture phones that bring you instant
communication. I can only imagine what it'd been like if we had picture
phones here in those days. \<laughs\>

Q: Right. I always kind of\...

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Q: If I could take you back to the bridge just one more moment. Those
night sticks. I had never seen those before. Was that a usual tool, or
was that something of that particular era, time\...

**Jamie Wallace:** It was a usual tool. Most policemen or officers
carried a night stick, or Billy Club, they called it. They uh.. some of
them are of different lengths, probably, and some are uh.. larger
cities, they look\-- seem to be a little smaller. And they had a- a grip
on them. And uh.. they were used in uh.. crowd control and things like
that. It was- it was not a non-traditional type of piece of equipment
that officers carried.

Q: It looked like they went beyond a single blow. That they were really
at some point it almost looks like a fever takes over.

**Jamie Wallace:** I'm sure there was a rush on the part of uh.. of some
of the people involved. I'm sure there was an adrenaline rush. Like when
you get into situations like that. I mean, even today we have incidents
that occur where there's\-- an officer's involved and there's an
adrenaline rush, and he does things that he wouldn't have do\-- wouldn't
have done otherwise. Uh.. and you know, in those days, there were a lot
of rumors floating around about what some of these people were involved
in the movement were, and were not. And- and uh.. some of these\-- some
of the officers were actually probably feared, you know, that they
were\-- that they could uh.. lose their life in a situation like that.
Uh.. I never saw any evidence of uh.. of that among the recognized
organizations, such as Dr. King's. Uh.. you know, but there were a lot
of rumors about other peripheral type organizations that did not adhere
to the non-violence of Dr. King. And they did get involved in movements
from time to time in cities throughout the country. So there was that
hint of\-- that there could be some real trouble here among people. But
uh.. and they may have fueled a little bit of it. But I think the
adrenaline rush when they waded in there and people screaming and
hollering and everything just got out of control.

Q: Someone mentioned to me they deputized some people. I used the word
posse earlier. But maybe there were some there that weren't quite as
experienced in that, disciplined in that crowd control.

**Jamie Wallace:** You know, they- they trained regularly. And they had
uh.. they had been a great force in this county and city in earlier
years when they were formed. Uh.. we had two hundred year floods almost
back to back here. And they had actually\-- some of those men\-- had
actually uh.. risked their life to save black people that lived on the
river, and down on plantation\-- on big farms. And uh.. and so forth.
But it moved from that until they were\-- some of them were a mobile
posse, to where they went to other locations where uh.. there were
school desegregation problems and there were other things that Sheriff
Clark had loaned them out, so to speak. And he himself would go from
time to time to help other sheriff's keep control of situations. So
they- they uh.. there probably wasn't as we would recognize today, the
professional law enforcement training. But there was some training. Uh..
I think they met basically on a weekly basis to train and so forth. And
there was some well meaning good people in the- in the group. But uh..
you know, they- they just was involved in a- in a tough situation,
horrible situation. And- and that uh.. probably changed their life. In
fact, I- I know that some of those men who happened to\-- I happened to
know, uh.. later uh.. changed their life, you know, lifestyle uh..
totally in dealing with this question of uh.. of race relations.

Q: Rethought to the point where\...

**Jamie Wallace:** Right, right. As Mayor Smitherman, for example. When
you ran in the south in Alabama, and in Dallas County, when you ran for
public office in the '60s you- you could not uh.. you had to be a- a at
least publicly in a vow of segregation. So you wouldn't never get
elected. So when he went in office as a segregationist. And later said,
"I was wrong!" You know? "I was wrong." And uh.. and as did George
Wallace, for example. "I was wrong." In fact, Governor Wallace, as a
result of what happened over there that first Sunday in March uh..
became extremely angry, called uh.. a number of people to his office in
Montgomery, and literally ch- chewed them up for- for embarrassing the
State of Alabama. And- and one of those he called was Mayor Smitherman,
and one other one was Wilson Baker. Well Baker set\-- think\-- he's
sitting there thinking, "Hey, you got the wrong man here! If they'd done
what I said, then this wouldn't have happened!" But uh.. a little while
later, the\-- Al Lingo, who was the State Director of Public Safety,
uh.. suddenly uh.. wasn't in that office anymore. And uh.. governor had
always denied that he fired him, but we always thought that uh.. that
Lingo was probably asked to resign, because the incident across the
river.

Q: What did you report after Bloody Sunday? What was the editorial tone
and description of those events? I know you said it was very candid. And
no one was glossing anything over. What were some of those writings?

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, of course, we were\-- as I said editorially,
and in the news columns, we reported what happened. Uh.. just as it
happened. And uh.. editorially, what\-- the opinions supported the fact
that uh.. that this is uh.. this is not the kind of action or reaction
that we need in Selma, Dallas County. And uh.. but uh.. that's the way
we approached it.

Q: You mentioned that change was inevitable, and that was kind of a
premise that the paper took. Uhm.. was that widespread, or did you feel,
"Boy, I'm pretty singular here?"

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, it- it wasn't exactly widespread, no. But our
publisher was on the biracial committee that had been formed some time
ago that was trying to- to negotiate and effect some change. And- and he
was on that committee. So it wasn't like that we weren't involved with
the community in- in doing this. And uh.. you know, there was a\-- at
times you felt like you might be on a small island. But uh.. by and
large, uh.. I think generally good-thinking people realized that uh..
that this had to happen.

Q: When you kind of recovered from those events, you didn't have much
time before Martin Luther King was in town, and were you apprehensive?
How did those events unfold?

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, we had in this city during that time all of the
major groups that covered the racial divide. We had J.B. Stoner, the mad
bomber from Georgia. We had Jimmy\-- uh.. George Lincoln Rockwell, the
head of the American Nazi party. We had Jimmy Ray Robinson, the head of
the American States Rights party. We had Stokely Carmichael, who was on
the other side, and was a\-- not an advocate of non-violence at that
time now. We had uh.. Malcolm X came through. Uh.. at that time
Malcolm's people were not\-- Dr. King did not want Malcolm appearing
with him. Uh.. so we had a- a mix here that never got together. So it
never got the cap to the dynamite, so to speak. So uh.. Mr. Baker did a
skillful job of keeping those people apart. Now we had uh.. hundreds of
people coming in and out of the city. For example, I- I tell people
sometimes, "A good example of what we went through sometimes was on a\--
on the day that Malcolm X held a press conference at Brown Chapel. Uh..
a man standing next to me asked some very, very inflammatory questions
of Malcolm. And his bodyguards were beginning to kind of show that they
had a piece on him. They had a weapon on them. And we start out of the
church, and a- a police detective stops me, and he said, "What are you
trying to do in there?" And I said, "I didn't try to do anything. I
didn't ask a question." And he said, "Well, the national media people
came out and said, "There's a red-headed guy in there asking all kind of
inflammatory questions." And I said, "Well, Dan, it wasn't me!" He said,
"Well, I didn't think you would do that." And I said, "No! I just wanted
to get it over with!" As it happens, the guy that was asking those
questions was arrested later that day for breaking into a reporter's
room at the local hotel, stealing his press credentials, among some
other things, shows up at the press conference. He was an escaped mental
patient from the state mental hospital." Now that's just a good example
of the mix we had here at times that never\-- you know, that never got
together. So, it was uh.. it- it was something to behold sometimes. But
by and large, most of the times there wasn't that much uh.. tension in
the air. A few times, but by and large. And Dr. King having been in and
out of here, uh.. when he came back this time, and with all the senators
and uh.. congressman, and uh.. Father Hessberg \[ph?\] from Notre Dame,
and uh.. Walter Ruther's brother, and- and uh.. Leroy Collins from
uh..\-- who was uh.. former governor of Florida, who was from President
Johnson's staff. Uh.. they were all in here. Plus you had a lot of
federal court orders being asked for. The- the local National Guard
units were federalized. The judges should order to\-- that they could
march to Montgomery. Uh.. and the- the preparations for the march got
underway for that third Sunday in- in March of uh.. 1965. 'Course uh..
not to defend G\-- uh.. Governor Wallace, but Governor Wallace's
philosophy had been\-- his stated philosophy I should say\-- had been
that, "You can't march from Selma, Montgomery, because of logistical
reasons."\
Because it was a major east/west federal highway from the East Coast to
the West Coast at that time. There were no interstates. And it- it was
heavy, heavy traffic. Well, some 13 miles of Highway 80 between Selma
and Montgomery was through a swamp. A two-lane highway through a swamp.
There's no place to get off or whatever. So he\-- his- his uh.. stated
policy was that, "You can't do it, because it's too dangerous." Of
course, you know, underneath that we all knew why he didn't wanna do it.
But the federal court came in and federalized the local National Guard
unit. Uh.. and uh.. ordered them to allow them to proceed with the
march. Uh.. from here, from Selma to Craig Air Force Base, which is five
miles east of- of Selma. As many could march as they wanted\-- as wanted
to. But once you reached Craig, uh.. only 50 could march at the time. So
uh.. what you had was, you had uh.. some people would march for a mile
or two miles or five miles, and they would- and they would drop off, and
somebody would take their place. There was like 11 people that marched
all the way. So uh.. a lot of people that marched from Selma to
Montgomery, actually it was like a relay team almost. And of course,
along the way they had stopped. They had tent cities. And all of this is
being included, of course, in the Selma to Montgomery Trail today. Uh..
but the uh.. the preparations went on. The- the uh.. stations were set
up for meals. Uh.. for restroom stops, and so forth. Uh.. as they- as
they prepared to get ready for that Sunday. And uh.. I- I think my
memory's dimming a little through the years, but I think uh.. some\--
you know, there were thousands of people that left Brown Chapel that
Sunday to march across the bridge into Craig. And then, of course, the-
the 50 started out from there.

Q: What was your editorial response to the march itself? Was that seen
as a positive thing then after\...

**Jamie Wallace:** For us, it was a matter of "maybe we're coming to the
end of all these days of turmoil." It had affected commerce greatly in
the city because of the reluctance of people to come downtown, which was
the major shopping area at that time. It was before the days of the
malls, the Wal-Marts and so forth. And uh.. the city had lost thousands
and thousands of dollars in tax revenue, plus they had spent thousands
and thousands of dollars in overtime for their law enforcement and
others. So we had to look at it f- from then on how\-- after this, how
do we rebuild the structure that we've had? How do we bring people
together? Uh.. what is gonna be\-- what happened in the aftermath of- of
all of this? So we were\-- probably once the- the march left Dallas
County, uh.. we- we were more inclined to look toward those kind of
things than we were what had happened in the past.

Q: Well, it did have an amazing impact. I still am so surprised how
swift Johnson's reaction was. And how quickly that voting rights act
was- was passed. One of the mysteries that kind of comes up is some
people say that they were denied really getting to the capitol in
Montgomery. Looking at the footage, it sure looks like they got to the
capitol. Was that issue in those days?

**Jamie Wallace:** I didn't\-- don't recall it being an issue. Uh.. of
course, anytime, uh.. for example, uh.. \<sighs\> several years ago when
President Clinton came to Selma on the anniv\-- on the 35^th^
anniversary of the Voting Rights March, I'm sure there were people that
said, "Well, I was denied access to the area." And that was true!
Because you had to have security. And there had to be security with this
march, because you had a lot of high profile people in this march when
it went up to the state capitol. So I'm sure that there were some people
that were denied access, because by virtue of the fact that they weren't
in the original line of march going up to there. It was\-- it would just
be the same thing that would occur uh.. with that large a crowd, uh.. at
any event really. But I've not heard that, to be honest with you.

Q: Did you go to Montgomery?

**Jamie Wallace:** I did not go to Montgomery.

Q: And the capitol, I guess, is a great symbol. I think that's why it
might have touched us as an issue listening to other accounts.

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, and also, you know that Governor Wallace had
been invited to speak to the crowd. And he did not do so. But uh.. it
uh.. I think there were a lot of people that wanted him to see if he
would actually do that. And along the way there were a lot of
entertainers had joined the group, you know. And at the City of St.
Jude's on uh.. the night before, they marched the capitol. You had a lot
of nationally known entertainers there, and sang and performed, and I
won't say it was a party-type atmosphere the night before. But it was
certainly a- a celebration worthy of uh.. of that, is my understanding
is that everybody was delighted that they had finally made it, you know,
to Montgomery. And uh.. and uh.. were going to the capitol the next day.
It was a great deal of symbolism in that.

Q: Was there a recognition that this probably would, in fact, result in
legislation, or some major change that\...

**Jamie Wallace:** There was. And uh.. of course, there's also
recognition that it was gonna change the political landscape, uh.. of
Selma and Dallas County forever. And not only Selma and Dallas County,
but Alabama as well. Especially in the Black Belt area. But you know,
we- we talk about the Voting Rights Act being uh.. aimed at southern
states, but I would point out to you that uh.. prior to the Selma to
Montgomery March, and the Voting Rights Act, there had never been a
black mayor of Cleveland. There had never been a black mayor of New York
and New Jersey. There had never been a black mayor of Chicago. There had
never been a black mayor of Detroit. What the Voting Rights March did,
and the Voting Rights Act, it not only allowed blacks to register to
vote in the southern states, but it empowered black people in these
other pl\-- cities, who had not 1) either taken the time to register to
vote; or else, 2) by economic reasons, especially in Chicago, had been
told who they would vote for or not vote for. So in short order, you had
a black mayor of Detroit, who happened to be\-- his family's from Selma.
You had a black mayor of Cleveland, whose family happens to be from
Alabama. You had a black mayor of Newark, whose family happens to have
roots in Alabama. And later, of course, uh.. Mayor Washington in Chicago
is from Greensboro, Alabama, which is about 45 miles from here. So if
you- if you look at that\-- at it from the broadest perspective, it not
only impacted Alabama, and the southern states, but it also had a great
impact on some other states as well, and heightened the awareness of
people. I mean, even uh.. Hispanics, or- or Orientals, or whatever, uh..
it- it was for the whole country, really, while it was aimed at the
southern states.

Q: I mentioned the "never lose sight of freedom" project that we're
doing these interviews for. We have some youngsters that are trying to
learn as much as they possibly can about the movement, or again it's
means, and it's impact. I'd be very curious about what advice you might
be giving to young people today, having gone through this experience.

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, uh.. since I've been a student of history for a
long time, ever since I was a very young person, love history. Uh..
Selma and Dallas County happened to be uh.. just uh.. very\-- it's an
untapped resource of history throughout all these years. And- and when I
was at the Chamber, people would come in from day to day, and say, "Have
you ever heard of this happening in Dallas County?" And I said, "No, but
we'll find out!" Uh.. I would encourage all young people to realize that
they need to know and understand history and what it's wrought for them.
There is a movement afoot today that I certainly uh.. become real upset
with. It\-- rewriting history. Uh.. suddenly some nations have tried to
rewrite their history. Uh.. people try to rewrite history. And uh.. to
me, that is a gro\-- uh.. an\-- a grievous offense to try to rewrite
history. Would we like to\-- that things would've happened different in
Selma, Alabama in March of 1965? Yes, we would have preferred they not
happen. But we also recognize that the greatest piece of social
legislation that in our lifetime, was the Voting Rights Act, and what it
brought to people in this country. And that's a part of history that
we're a part of. And we shall always revere. So I think that\-- you
can\-- if you just look at that one fact, and you look at history in
that context, then you understand how important it is.

Q: I've been asking you a lot of questions. And you've been very
fascinating. What would you like to say, to have included in this film
that maybe we haven't touched on, or that you feel very personally
committed to?

**Jamie Wallace:** I've uh.. I've said this to uh.. and of course, we
had cadres of uh.. US Justice Department attorneys in our city for many
years. Various and sundry things, you know, suits and so forth. And uh..
I was fortunate enough to become friends with some of the young
attorneys. And- and I\-- and my favorite saying to them was, "Don't look
at where we are. Look at where we came from." Because uh.. schools, for
example. In- in 1953, there were over a hundred schools in Dallas
County! And now schools can be counted at 14 or so. Because a lot of
those schools were one-room schools. I'm not saying that they weren't\--
educationally they were probably pretty good. One teacher, one school, a
lot of grades. But if you start from that point to where we are today,
you can't start where we are today, and judge us by that. You gotta say,
"Where did we come from in a relatively short period of time?" So, I- I
use that analogy, because in the same way in- in the Voting Rights
movement. Don't look at where we are necessarily. Even though I happen
to think that if I was a political science professor, and I had it\--
the- the wherewithal to do so, I would bring my class every year to
Selma, Alabama, because this is where it's happening politically in the
changing face of politics in this nation. There's a great lesson to be
learned from- from bringing students to this city, and to see and
actually reach out and touch the people that were involved in making
history as we know it today. So that's the message I'd like to- to give
to- to young people today.

Q: Wonderful examples of courage for them here.

**Jamie Wallace:** And just sheer determination, and sheer ability to
have groups sit down and work it out! Did we scream and holler at each
other? Probably far too much. But we were screaming and hollering at
each other politically when there were\-- when it was total white
domination of the political office! That's just kind of the way we've
always done business. I don't agree with it, but that's the way we do
business. So somewhere beneath the heat uh.. things get worked out!

Q: What are the issues you see that maybe we direct youth toward? What
are some of the concerns that these kids might apply themselves toward?

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, I work for a multi-county agency now, uh.. in
my retirement years. I- I work for a ten county agency, which covers
many of the Black Belt counties. And without a doubt, uh.. we need great
help in economic development jobs. Uh.. we- we have been uh.. we have
been left behind. Uh.. the state has moved off and left us. Uh.. there
appears to be a lack of willingness at some times for\-- to promote our
area as industrial, because they think, "Well, not well educated. Don't
have people that can do a job." But we have great workforce in our area.
Their- their work ethic is- is as good as any I've ever seen anywhere.
The people love to work, and they love to work hard. But somehow or
another, there's gotten to be a cynicism about our area that's got\--
we've got to get past that. And uh.. of course, we have\-- economic
development is a major need. You say, "Well, education." They're one and
two. But if you have economic development, then you can have a strong
education system, because you got more resources to put into it. More
people have a good job. They feel better about themselves. And uh..
right now, uh.. eight of our ten county area has double digit
unemployment. And if you go to a county that has 16 percent
unemployment, the ability for those people to look forward, and have
great dreams and visions, is not always there because of the
circumstances they're in.

Q: Well, we're very grateful for your time. I hope we haven't run you
dry. We look forward to reviewing this, including it in our film. If
there's anything else you'd like to add, please do so.

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, I was pleased to be involved with the
initiation of the Selma/Montgomery Trail some years ago, at- at the
Chamber of Commerce. And have kept abreast of the- of the development of
the\-- of it. And I think it's gonna be one of the great trails. And as
I said earlier, it's the only trail that the park service has ever done
where the participants are still alive. So when you hear that people
don't always agree with the park service on- on what- what that should
be on the trail or- or other things, then you gotta realize that the
people are still alive. Lewis and Clark, if they came back would
probably say, "Well, we don't like what you did to our trail!" But uh..
it's been fascinating. And I've lived through a great and wonderful
period of time in history.

Q: You sure have. Thank you, Mr. Wallace. We appreciate it very much.

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