Q: Major Andrews maybe we'd start just by introducing yourself, telling
us a little about yourself.

**Charles Andrews:** Okay, I'm Major Charles Andrews, I'm the Chief of
the Administrative Division of the Alabama Department of Public Safety.
I've been a trooper with the uh.. Department of Public Safety since
1980, have 24 years of experience and I work out of headquarters which
is located in Montgomery, Alabama.

Q: Welcome...

**Charles Andrews:** Thank you.

Q: We're glad you're here we're looking forward to this. The Department
of Public Safety had an important role in the voting rights movement -
you've shared some stories earlier maybe we could talk a little about
the importance of the department.

**Charles Andrews:** I'd be glad to. Uhm.. well you know at the time
that that movement took place and uh.. I was nine years old so I wasn't
actually there at the bridge but uhm.. over the years I've heard some
different accounts that\-- and some instances were not known to the
general public. Uh.. I do\-- heard of an account of one situation where
the march was scheduled to take place and it was delayed and uh.. that
decision was made by people from the Department of Public Safety because
they had intelligence that uh.. once they got outside the city limits of
Selmore that an ambush may take place. Uhm.. you know several other
stories uh.. for instance that the uh.. what you always see on TV is the
troopers engaged in the marches that for the bridge but you know we were
told then uh.. that the first encounter actually took place on the
bridge involving the Dallas County Sheriffs Office uh.. but these were
the things that I picked up over the years uhm.. that is part of the
department's history uhm.. and because of uh.. the march that took place
at Selmore I think that the direction in which the department uh..
proceeded in- in later years changed drastically. Uh.. you probably saw
a lot more change take place quickly had it uh.. not been for the march
there at the bridge.

Q: The Department of Public Safety has \<crew talk\> maybe got a bit of
a bum rap there; I don't think I've heard those stories before, how is
that portrayed among the members of the department?

**Charles Andrews:** Well you know we uhm.. uh.. it is- is\-- I've never
seen it documented anywhere. Uh.. it has mostly been past down uhm..
from members who had uhm.. were actually employed at that time; a lot of
those people have since retired or they passed away uhm.. and you know
there are- there's still some of the- the older members of the
department that are around there if you can locate them they could
probably confirm those stories. Uh.. I've not seen it actually
documented uh.. anywhere. Uhm.. you know during that period of time
uhm.. the department had to\-- was basically charged with trying to
maintain order uh.. in uh.. in peace within the community and uhm..
evidently it was recognized that there was potential for this order is
the reason that they was ordered to be there at the bridge. Uhm.. during
that period of time the troopers\-- the troop commander was a Major John
Cloud I believe and uh.. a lot of the decisions had to be made\-- were
made there on the scene by him. Uhm.. and- and as I say you go back uh..
and I've traveled over the country since I've been with uh.. the
Department of Public Safety and that's- that's one of the- the things we
have to live with that's in our past but at the same time we have to
talk about the positive changes that took place since then. Uhm..
roughly eight years later in 1972 the first black troopers were hired
with the Department of Public Safety and that resulted from a uh.. civil
suit filed in Federal Court by Philip Paradise known as Paradise versus
State of Alabama and it required a one-for-one hiring of minority uh..
personnel until the force was basically 25 percent minority.

Q: And that ratio today?

**Charles Andrews:** The ratio today is probably pretty close still to
uhm.. along those same lines, the high water mark I think is that we
were as high as thirty seven percent minority at one time. Uhm.. we had
minority representation in all of the ranks.

Q: Congratulations.

**Charles Andrews:** Thank you sir.

Q: Let me ask you - nine years old during kind of a difficult type in
our history, what are your recollections of that era?

**Charles Andrews:** Well you know it- it kind of goes back be\-- before
the actual march there I remember uh.. President Kennedy's assassination
uh.. I think I was in 3^rd^ grade and was coming home on the school bus
when the rumor started and I got home and we were one of the few
families in \_\_\_\_\_\_ county that had a television set so everybody
was glued to it to see what was going on. Uhm.. we learned later about
the march that took place there at the uhm.. the- the bridge in Selmore
we saw some of the same television pictures that other people saw and
you know there was a lot of concern uhm.. not just at Selmore but in
other parts of rural Alabama because there was so much different impact.
Uhm.. you were talking about changing the way of life of the people
uhm.. you know and I think you have found uh.. certain instances where
it\-- people registered to vote that they were forced to leave their
land and uh.. or their homes where they were staying, not necessarily
that they owned the land but uhm.. those were things uh.. that took
place during that period of time and\-- but because of that march you
know so many things have changed. Uhm.. I actually feel uhm.. that the
position I hold and I was the first uh.. African American to be promoted
to the rank of Major in the Department of Public Safety in 1994 and uh..
I was interviewed by some of the newspapers and I said then and I still
feel that if it had not been for the blood and sweat shared by those
civil right activists back during that period of time, I never would
have had that position and I actually feel I'm in the position but it's
not actually mine, it's their position, they earned it.

Q: That's an interesting way of putting it. Let me ask you as you look
back over that period, did you have any personal experiences with
discrimination?

**Charles Andrews:** I remember when I was a little boy uh.. probably
about six years old, six - seven years old you know just going into
1^st^ grade and learning to read and write uh.. there was a service
station on there in Monroe County and when I walked in I was thirsty and
I went to go up to the uh.. water cooler and it had there in big bold
letters 'white only' and I also remember we used to\-- I used to go and
get hair cuts and at that particular point in time where our barber shop
was located there was a restaurant right in front but if you wanted food
you had to go through the back door - you couldn't go in the front. So I
have- I have a few experiences with it.

Q: Have you in kind of looking back over this period, have you found
that people are positive about the change that's occurred or there's
still kind of reactionary types?

**Charles Andrews:** You know I\-- I think you have a few out there that
still may be the reactionary types but as you go back there and- and
look at the change that occur and how rapid that change occurred I think
you had uh.. people once they started to understand the different
cultures they more or less started to understand each other and uhm..
that made a- a big difference. You know you can't expect to- to change
an entire culture and- and take on all of the aspect of another culture
but I think uhm.. the races learned from each other over that period of
time. Uh.. some of the assumptions that have been made in the past you
know people started to find out that they were not true. Uh.. some of
the- the\-- you know there used to be a lot of times there were doubts
about the capabilities of African Americans, I think a lot of those have
been erased.

Q: There was violence, we see those images looking back at that historic
footage - would you say that was necessary or some people have kind of
suggested to me that maybe you have to have that violence periodically
to kind of make that rapid change.

**Charles Andrews:** Well you know as- as I go back and uh.. knowing
uh.. what I know now about the Department of Public Safety and you see
the violence on TV, you don't see all of the circumstances, the
incidents that happen before uh.. you know who set it off uhm.. I do
know at- at certain points of times that they're uhm.. orders that are
issued based on court rulings or what have you and it is uh.. their
responsibility to maintain order. I think when you get in a situation
like that uh.. sometimes it's difficult to control a large number of
people and uh.. you will on occasions have individuals that may do
things that are not uh.. consistent with your protocol and I think that
some of the things that you saw happen there on the bridge uh.. you know
once it- it really started for a while there you had chaos and you know
that's where uh.. a lot of things come from; order comes from chaos and
unfortunately uhm.. you had some individuals and- and the other thing
you must realize in that video, all of those law enforcement officers
were not Alabama State Troopers; you had sheriffs deputies, other people
who were deputized who were also involved in this.

Q: I heard today the word 'posse' I haven't heard that very much, what
does that mean exactly?

**Charles Andrews:** Well\-- and you really don't uhm.. that is- is
pretty much a historic term and that is where the sheriff of a county
would go back in and uhm.. because of a lack of personnel for a better
way of putting it, he would deputize individual people and uhm.. make em
deputies and they would act under his orders and these- these people
would mostly be ordinary citizens that had no law enforcement training.

Q: So that must have been difficult for those people who didn't have
that discipline that you now get as part of your training...

**Charles Andrews:**Mmmm...

Q: It looks like it got a little out of control.

**Charles Andrews:** And- and you know if- if uh.. I think as you go
back and- and\-- even in the videos there's as you see with the- the
troopers uhm.. none of those people reacted uh.. from what I saw in the
videos you actually did not see them engage anybody until it seems as if
a command was given, well you know things were going on prior to that
uh.. such as it had been described to us about the incident that
happened back on the bridge uh.. you know the training uhm.. we go
through now if we- we train for civil disorder and uhm.. the training
that we engage in now has- has been modified some since then but uhm..
the- the troopers have been trained uhm.. to show restraint until you
actually have to engage someone and then at that point in time it's not
a rapid procession because what you want to do is to give crowds an
opportunity to react you know, to- to fall back to move out the way.
Uhm.. one of the big parts of our training now uh.. in that restraint
is- is to get people to not respond to uhm.. voice threats uh..
accusations uh.. name calling or things of that nature and that's a big
part of our training.

Q: When you look at the civil rights movement there was a lot of
violence elsewhere - where do you think it kind of occurred in Selmore
and this area?

**Charles Andrews:** Well you know it's during a period of time in which
I was growing up and uhm.. from talking to other people I think that
uhm.. you know Selmore was a- a point chosen uh.. by leaders of the
movement. Uhm.. they were looking for I think a venue in which to uh..
show the- the world that uh.. one man one boat did not exist here and
uhm.. they saw this as an opportunity. They had people uh.. and- and\--
from what I've seen and- and observed in the past you had people who
were willing to uh.. to step forward and demand that right.

Q: The word 'courage' always comes up, do you admire those people?

**Charles Andrews:** Yes I do.

Q: When you think back each person had to kind of make up their mind to
stand up, what do you think some of the issues are that face us today?

**Charles Andrews:** Well I think some of the issues out there are still
somewhat uh.. economic parity. Uhm.. education uhm.. employment
opportunities I think of some of the issues that- that still face us.
Uhm.. as you- you go back and- and look at things that happened within
the last few years I think that there has to be more of a emphasis on
family. Uhm.. you know the\-- in some instances what you see out there
now is uhm.. where you have young people uh.. be they're male or female
who don't have that other parent figure within their life uh.. to help
control them and some of this goes back to pay\-- into the power of the
economic standpoint. You got one parent out there that's having to work
two or three jobs well that parent's not actually raising that child now
and you know some of the other things and uh.. I don't know if we touch
on this or not but uh.. in order to know where you're going you have to
know where you come from and I'm not sure how much exposure that is
actually given to our young people when it comes back to talking about
civil rights era. Uh.. if that exposure is not given uh.. some of the
same rights that we've won or liberties we enjoy we may lose.

Q: Well that's' one of the reasons why we're doing these interviews and
we're very excited about preserving the past and keeping that memory
alive, what are some of the things you might say to youth today?

**Charles Andrews:** I would say get involved in history uhm.. look at
the opportunities that you have; you have uhm.. February which is Black
History month uh.. you know if it's not uh.. addressed in your schools
speak up and get it addressed. Uh.. it's something for everybody to
share you know the- the history here in Selmore is not just history for
African Americans, it's history for this nation and uhm.. we don't need
to forget that- that history and uh.. I would encourage all to take a
look at this civil rights era you know uh.. just even some of the
speeches that were made uh.. drives home a point and uh.. I think we all
need to know that.

Q: Who were some of your personal heroes from that era?

**Charles Andrews:** My personal heroes? Uhm.. Martin Luther King was
one of them. Uhm.. I had his name on the tip of my tongue he was a
minister up in Birmingham uhm.. I'll try and come back to that. Uhm..
during that period of time one of the- one of the people was Jessie
Jackson uh.. whom I actually had an opportunity to meet uhm.. the uhm..
there's a representative uh.. from- from uh.. Georgia that actually
comes over here uh.. I'm bad with names \<laugh\> uhm.. can't think of
his name now but uh.. you know it was people those- those eras uhm..
Rosa Parks uhm.. you know it- it took courage uhm.. to actually finally
say that you know enough is enough uh.. I'd gone out and I put in a hard
day work just like everybody else and I think that- that I shouldn't be
made to move just because of my color you know and all of those- those
people during that era that had the courage to- to take a stand.

Q: Well courage is the right word I think I wonder if one of the reasons
that we're doing this in fact is to remind young people that it does
take courage to stand up. Are there events going on now that are
comparable that might be next times turning point?

**Charles Andrews:** Well the\-- you know some of the events I think
would have to be cognizance of uh.. have to do in- in the area of
education uh.. and a lot of the areas you go back and you look at what's
happening now in some of the schools they're becoming minority schools
all over again uhm.. I think some of the other events have to do with
the uhm.. well for instance the amount of funding that we're willing to
invest in public education because if you don't put it there, one of the
things that's going to happen is that the gap between the haves and the
have nots is going to spread and you know even in this job uh.. it
requires you to be prepared and if you're not prepared then you can't
compete and that's where the- the\-- some of the big issues out there
being prepared to compete uhm.. is going to be one of the things I think
that will keep us from having that uh.. gap again.

Q: I've asked all the questions, maybe there's some things that you'd
like to offer to the movie and I wanted to give you that chance before
we close here - are there some things that you might want to address
about either the civil rights movement or some of the topics that we've
touched on that you'd like to share?

**Charles Andrews:** Well you know I think uh.. what you have to look at
is that the civil rights movement was an opportunity and it could have
very easily passed us by and things could not have changed but you had
the example that was set uh.. for young people, especially minority
young people that if you had the mindset and you seized those
opportunities you can affect change and that's- that's what it's all
about you know so many times I see young people out there these days
they have opportunities present themselves and they don't recognize them
and uh.. that's what I would encourage from this. Uh.. this was a great
opportunity uh.. we will have other great opportunities that will
present themselves in the future and we will need to be prepared to uh..
recognize them and seize the moment.

Q: Thank you for taking the time to be with us, I enjoyed it very much.

**Charles Andrews:** Okay, you're welcome.

Q: \<crew talk\>

Q: Reverend Reese, welcome.

**Fredrick Reese:** Yeah.

Q: Please introduce yourself to us and tell us a little about yourself,
if you would.

**Fredrick Reese:** Well, my name is Fredrick Douglas Reese. I'm a
Selmian, born in Selma. Attended elementary school, high school here.
And then went to uh.. Alabama State University. Also to Livingston
University. And uh.. Selma University. And, of course, I've had uh..
some experience uh.. in education for some 50 years. And also
simultaneously pasturing the church here in Selma, Alabama, the Ebenezer
Baptist Church, located 1540 Le Grand Street here in Selma. And I've
been there for 39 years. And, of course, I'm here now as chairman of the
Advisory Council of the National Historic Trail uh.. which uh.. took
place, you know, in Selma, from Selma to Montgomery, in 1965. And that's
a little about myself.

Q: Wonderful. If you would, take us back to 1965, and maybe you could
tell us about conditions uhm.. before March. What were things like in
Selma, Alabama?

**Fredrick Reese:** Well, in 1964, '63, '64, in Selma, Dallas County,
there were less than 300 registered black citizens in Dallas County, out
of some uh.. potential voting age population of 15,000. And, of course,
in 1964, uh.. there was an effort to make sure that uh.. there would not
be any mass registration of uh.. minorities. And so it was in 1964 the
Circuit Court here in Dallas County, issued an injunction prohibiting
any further mass meetings that was being held in churches, which would
uh.. give uh.. credence to uh.. the type of uh.. incentive needed to go
out and request registration at the Dallas County Courthouse here. And
that particular injunction was issued to uh.. discourage any further
registration of minorities. And that injunction was uh.. enforced from
July, 1964 to December of 1964, at which time there were no mass
meetings held. And, of course, there were eight of us. When I say eight
of us I have reference to eight uh.. members of the Dallas County Voters
League, of which I served as president at that time. We were to meet in
homes, sometime in offices, in light of that injunction. And, of course,
in December of 1964, we decided that we would no longer allow that
injunction that was issued by the Circuit Court to prohibit us any
further from pursuing the right to vote by holding mass meetings, and
therefore we decided we were going to break that injunction. It was in
December of 1964 when meeting in Mrs. Amelia Boynton's office, a house
at that time, who was one of the courageous eight, uh.. we decided that
uh.. we would uh.. invite Dr. King and the members of the Southern
Christian Leadership Conference, to come to Selma to further assist us
in our quest for the right to vote. When I say further, I mean that
prior to 1965, there- we had uh.. in Selma SNCC organization. The
Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, that we invited here to uh..
in fact they were considered to be pioneers in the quest for encouraging
citizens of Dallas County, Selma, to get registered to vote. And so it
was then uh.. in December, '64, as president of the Dallas County Voters
League, I signed the official invitation inviting Dr. King and the
members of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference to come to Selma
to further assist us- and I say us, I have reference to the Dallas
County Voters League- in our quest for the right to vote. And we decided
that we would break that injunction on January the 2^nd^, 1965, after
having checked with some of the pastors in the city area here, about
holding a meeting to break that injunction. There were pastors who were
somewhat skeptical about allowing such a meeting to be held in light of
that injunction. But uh.. having some relationship uh.. in terms of
friendship with the pastor, uh.. Brown Chapel, AME church here, uh.. the
Reverend P. H. Lewis at that time was pastor. And as I approached him
about holding that meeting at Brown Chapel, he said he would check with
the Bishop, Bishop Bonnar at that time of the AME church, to get
permission for that meeting to be held, even in light of that
injunction. He received that uh.. permission, informed me, and therefore
I proceed then to distribute announcements or leaflets around in the
community announcing that we were going to break that injunction at
Brown Chapel Church January the 2^nd^, 1965. And those persons who
wished to come and be a part of that meeting were invited, at which time
Dr. King agreed that he would come and be our guest speaker. And so on
January the 2^nd^, 1965, I must say that I remember that date. The day
before it snowed. And there were those who thought no one would show up
at that meeting in light of that injunction. But uh.. on January the
2^nd^, 3:00 o'clock, Brown Chapel AME church, the church became filled
with citizens. In fact, there were those standing on the outside because
the church was filled to its capacity. And then Dr. King made the speech
that day. And, of course, we found that those uh.. law enforcement
officers who came around the church to observe what was going on,
because we had indicated that those persons who would come and be a part
of this ma- uh.. that mass meeting, could risk being arrested. And so at
that time, those law enforcement agencies came around, and saw all of
us, that number of persons, Brown Chapel Church. And I should imagine
they felt that there were too many of us for them to put all of us in
that little jail downtown. And I also say there were too many of us for
them to feed at that time, too. So then uh.. no one- no one was arrested
on that date. In fact, the law enforcement agencies then made sure that
those persons who drove to that meeting had uh.. parking spaces. And
therefore that injunction, then, became nill and void. We resumed our
mass meetings, and that mass meeting then led to what I consider the
teachers' march on January the 22^nd^, 1965. The Lord had me in the
right place, I guess the right time, with the right commitment. I was
also president of the Selma City Teachers Association. I was a teacher
of science and mathematics at the R. B. Hudson High School here. And as
president of the Selma City Teachers Association, I suggested that
teachers would become involved in that movement, because prior to that
time, teachers were not involved. Only the laity in the community. But
now, when those teachers were challenged to come and be a part of that
uh.. particular movement, that we could no longer allow others to do for
us what we could do for ourselves as teachers. And therefore I met with
those teachers in the cafeteria at R. B. Hudson High School then. And,
of course, uh.. I was very eloquent in suggesting that they would uh..
engage in a teachers' march for the first time on January the 22^nd^,
1965. And I asked them to sign uhm.. the role indicating their desire to
be present at that particular uh.. march. And so it was that on January
22^nd^, 3:00 o'clock, when school is usually out for the elementary as
well as the high school, we were to meet at Clark Elementary School, up
on the 2^nd^ floor in the chapel, the same school that I attended when I
was in elementary school from the first through the sixth grade, Clark
Elementary School. And meeting on the 2^nd^ floor in that uh.. chapel,
at 3:00 o'clock, about one car was on the campus. That was mine. But
then after the teachers were dismissed from their classes, then they
came to Clark Elementary School chapel. Filled that chapel up. There was
about- almost 200 of us who were there to participate in the first
teachers' march. And so we decided that we would march from that school
uh.. Clark School, to the County Courthouse, which was the site for
registration. And uh.. we left Clark Elementary School double file. The
person who marched with me at the head of that line, was Mr. A. J.
Durgen, who is deceased now but he is my 10^th^ grade biology teacher.
And I must say that when I went to that uh.. chapel that day, and I saw
seated in that chapel, before we left, going to the Courthouse, I saw my
3^rd^ grade teacher. I saw my 4^th^ grade teacher, 2^nd^ grade teacher.
And my 1^st^ grade teacher came and told me, he said, come here, boy.
Said now, I'm not able to walk down to that Courthouse today, but I'm
gonna sit right here until you get back. That was one of the most
encouraging remarks of that day, knowing that my teacher was there to
give support to the leadership that I was giving at that time. And so we
left Clark Elementary School, going down to the County Courthouse, where
Jim Clark, at that time, who was the vicious sheriff. He was the symbol
of resistance in the South. And we went to that County Courthouse. And
they had planned uh.. to have present, when we got to the Courthouse,
the Superintendent of Education, the chairman of the school board was
there to encourage or to request that I would uhm.. dismantle the
approach to the Courthouse and then lead teachers back to the school, or
to the church. And it was that the reason that the Superintendent of
Education was there, and the chairman of the board, because well, you
know, they uh.. were all of the finances of teachers. And that it was
thought that uh.. that present would have some affect upon whether or
not we would continue. But when getting to that uh.. Courthouse, I
indicated to the Superintendent, as well as the chairman of the school
board, to step aside. We had a right to be at that Courthouse. And the
Courthouse was our Courthouse, as well as anyone else's. And we had a
right to come to the Courthouse to see if the Board of Registrars was
open so that teachers might could be registered. And it was so that
there were teachers who had master's degrees, who had gone down many
times to get registered, and were not registered. And so we then decided
that we would uh.. insist that we had a right to go inside the
Courthouse to see if the Board of Registrars was in session. Well I knew
that the Board of Registrars were never in sess- in session on Friday.
But I had sent a registered letter to the chairman of the Board
indicating that we desired the uh.. Board of Registrars to be in session
to register teachers who were not registered. I knew that they were not
going to be open. But we all indicated a desire for the Courthouse to be
open for registration any day of the week. If I could pay my taxes any
day, Monday through Friday, ought to be able to register. And so then
the- the County Sheriff, Jim Clark, uh.. insisted that the Board was not
in session and I indicated that we had a right to go inside our
Courthouse to see whether or not the Board was in sessions for
ourselves. He had the deputies across the door, the door leading from
the Alabama Street side of the Courthouse. And as we went up those
steps, and he gave us a minute to move off of those steps, and after the
minute expired, he took his Billy club and jabbed us down those steps,
on the sidewalk, and my partner, who was my 10^th^ grade teacher, who
was really not used to that kind of uh.. uhm.. treatment, as I was in a
sense. He asked me after being jabbed down on the sidewalk, he said,
now, what shall we do? And he had some big, pretty eyes. I said- I said,
we are going back. He said, hm? I said, we are going back. We went back
up the steps a second time, and he gave us a minute to move. And at the
expiration of that minute, he jabbed us down those steps the second
time. And my partner asked me the same question. I said, we are going
back. And he said, hm hm. And so on the third time, and the sheriff
indicated that if we were not off of those steps in a minute, that he
was going to arrest us. And really that's what I really wanted. I wanted
to get every teacher arrested, because at that time teachers represented
the largest, black professional organization in Dallas County. And
therefore teachers were not even aware of the kind of influence they had
at that time. And so just before the expiration of that third minute,
there were members of the Courthouse staff, and of the Court, I should
imagine, on the inside of the door. And before that minute expired, they
asked Jim Clark, the sheriff, to come inside. I didn't go in there with
him, but I could imagine what they told him. For goodness sake, don't
arrest those teachers, because they represent the largest, black
professional- professional group, rather, in Dallas County. And so
instead of arresting us, uh.. ja- he came out and he jabbed us down the
steps the third time. I knew then that we're not going to get arrested.
So then we left the County Courthouse, went to Brown Chapel Church, not
back to the school chapel. And there were parents who followed us from
the Courthouse to- to Brown Chapel. And there were students who were
jumping for joy because now all those students had been arrested. None
of my teacher is involved in this movement. And that teachers' march,
and we received a heroes' welcome at Brown Chapel that day. And then the
movement really gained momentum, at that point. Then other groups and
organization wanted to march. The undertakers got together and- and they
marched. The beauticians, they engaged in a march. And there were
others. And so the teachers' march then was a spark that really gave and
energized that particular movement there, at that point. And so from
that point, of January 22^nd^, uh.. to- to march. Well, in Marion,
Alabama, which is a city about 35 miles from here, from Selma, uh..
there was this movement being spread to Marion from Selma, because those
field workers who had been working in the movement here, after their
love in the movement, so to speak, after the teachers' march. And so
down in Marion, Alabama, there was planned what I call a night march.
And at which time uh.. from that church uh.. a march was planned and the
State Troopers, who were there around the church, then someone shot
lights out around the church and- and, of course, pandemonium broke out.
But then there was a young man, who's name was Jimmy Lee Jackson, who's
parent was in a- a cafeteria not too far from that particular church.
And uh.. he went in to protect his mother from the- from the attack of
the State Troopers, he was shot. And subsequently he was brought here to
Selma, and he expired here in Selma. That was the first uhm.. fatality
of the voting rights movement here. Jimmy Lee Jackson. And from that
particular incident, the idea of why don't we uhm.. go to the State
Capitol and inform the governor, Governor George Wallace at that time,
that there are those uh.. in Alabama who have been denied access to the
ballot, and the quality of life is not what it should be to address
those issues. And so then the idea of a march from Selma to Montgomery
was conceived. And then the idea was taken back to the Southern
Christian Leadership Conference. And that idea was adopted. And, of
course, then plans were made to proceed uh.. with that march, January,
or March, the uh.. 7^th^, 1965. And so plans were made uh.. by uh.. the
members of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and the staff.
Jose William was asked to actually bring, to plan uh.. the logistics for
the march. And uh.. to determine the various camps that uh.. would uh..
be used as we marched from Selma to Montgomery, this 50 mile march. And
so it was then that we decided that we would begin this march, March the
7^th^, 1965. And of course, we met at Brown Chapel Church. It was my
particular responsibility to make sure, knowing that there was an
injunction connected with uh.. well, not only a injunction, but uh.. an
ordinance that prohibited parading or marching less than three feet
apart for the uh.. uh.. the threat of being arrested. And so as we
formed that march that day, I made sure that every uh.. double file
march- marcher would be at least three feet from the double file before
them. So we would not get arrested before we got to the bridge here. And
so we left Brown Chapel Church, going down at that time, the name of
that streets was Sylvan Street, cause now it's been changed to Martin
Luther King, Jr. Street. We left there and went down Alabama Avenue,
down to Broad Street, and Broad Street is the main street that leads
through town, out across that bridge. And as we got to that bridge that
day- I vividly remember that bridge. And got to the apex of that bridge
and looked down on the other side of that bridge, I saw a sea of blue,
blue helmets, blue State Trooper uniform, blue State Trooper cars parked
parallel on the side of the highway. And those State Troopers who had
their Billy clubs, their gas masks, and the leader of the State Trooper,
Major Cloud, on a bull horn, announced to the marchers and to us that he
had orders from the governor not to allow that march to continue. That
we were to disperse and go back to our homes or to the church. We'd
already decided we would not uh.. uh.. turn unless we were turned. And
so it was then that we decided that we would allow the march to
continue. And as we approached those uh.. State Troopers, then they took
their Billy clubs and moved in on the line of State Troopers.

Q: Let me stop you here.

\<crew talk\>

Q: If we could go back to the sea of blue, please. I'm sorry for the
interruption.

**Fredrick Reese:** Yeah. Approaching the Edmund Pettus Bridge, and at
the apex of that bridge, looked down on the other side of that bridge, I
saw a sea of blue, blue helmets, blue State Trooper uniform, blue State
Trooper cars parked parallel on the side of the highway, Highway 80
East. And the State Troopers who had their gas masks, their Billy clubs,
on. And the leader of the State Troopers, whose name was Major Cloud,
had a bull horn, and announced that he had orders from the governor not
to allow that march to continue. We were to disperse and go back to our
homes, or back to the church. And we'd already decided we would not turn
unless we were turned. And so then uh.. he gave orders for the State
Troopers to move in with their Billy clubs clutched on both ends. And
literally went down the line of marchers, toppling those marchers over
as if you would topple bowling pins in a bowling alley. They withdrew
and then took the Billy club in one hand and began to beat heads. I saw
blood flowing. Pandemonium broke out in the crowd. There was a state of
disbelief that this was happening in these United States of America. And
then they were given orders to withdraw, and then to lob gas canisters
over into the crowd. If you've ever been in gas, you have to try to find
some fresh air. And so then those marchers then dispersed to the east
side of that highway, and about 15 to 20 minutes then they came back
from that field to the east side, back to the highway, going back across
the bridge, being pursued, not uh.. necessarily by the State Trooper,
but by the sheriff posse. These were men who were deputized by the
sheriff department and they were on horseback. And then they pursued us
on horseback. And those of us who were able to get back across that
bridge, because there were some who were injured, on the highway from
that beating, and going back across that bridge on the way back to Brown
Chapel Church, then the long sticks were used and it- and the horses
used to- as if they were going to run over these marchers that being-
that were being pursued back to the Brown Chapel Church. Oh, yes, I got
uh.. beaten on the head, shoulders, going back across that bridge also.
And back to Brown Chapel Church. And getting back to that church that
day, uh.. as president of the Dallas County Voters League, I saw those
persons and marchers who had come to that church. And I looked into
their eyes, who's eyes I'd looked into many days before then. I saw a
question mark. And that question mark was whether or not we should
pursue the non-violent uh.. method that we had pursued from that point,
based on what hap- what happened across that bridge. And- and then while
in that sanctuary we- I had prayer, scripture read, and tried to give
whatever words of comfort I could to those uh.. marchers who were back
at the church. And while in the church, the telephone rang in the
pastor's study. It was Dr. King. He called me. He said, Mr. President.
Well, he called me Mr. President because I was president of the Dallas
County Voters League, the- the league that sponsored the movement here,
the local league. And he was being facetious. He says, I understand you
had a little trouble down in Selma. I said, Dr. King, that's the
understatement you're making. I said, we've had a lot of trouble down
here in Selma. And he said he had sent out a call over the nation to
invite ministers and other persons to come to Selma to assist us in our
quest for the right to vote, to lend their bodies and their assistance.
And while in that church that same night, about almost 10:00 o'clock,
there was a group uh.. persons who had chartered a plane from New Jersey
and had come to Montgomery, Alabama, and had chartered a bus from
Montgomery to Selma, while we were in that sanctuary. They walked in
that sanctuary that night, and said we have seen on the television
screen what happened across that bridge today. And we have heard the
call of Dr. King, and we're here to lend our bodies and our assistance
to the people of Selma. And I can assure you, that's one of the most
exhilarating and inspiring moments of that day. After having gone
through all of the indignities and the violence of that day, now you had
a feeling that there were those who wee concerned about the plight of
the people of Selma, and those who were trying to pursue the right to
vote. And so those same persons whose eyes I looked into prior to that
time, I looked into those same eyes, and I could see then renewed hope,
that there was a feeling that now we were ready to resume our commitment
to pursue this right. And they were ready to go out again to face
whatever opposition that might have been theirs to face. And so it was
then that people from all over the world came to Selma. Selma became an
ecumenical gathering of all races, all nationalities, all religions.
They came to Selma to actually be a part of that movement for the right
to vote. And so from that point on, we had what we call- everybody who
came to Selma wanted to march. We had marches going on all over Selma
every day from that point on uh.. until we decided two weeks later after
having been told by the Federal Court to allow the federal judge to
determine whether or not we had a right to march across that bridge down
Highway 80 East. And so we had to wait about two weeks before he ruled
after having that hearing. But he did rule that we had a right to march
down Highway 80 from across that bridge to Montgomery, and to be
protected. And so then we decided we were going to engage in the
successful march on March the 21^st^, that's 1965. And we left Selma
uh.. on, I guess about 3:00 o'clock, going across that bridge. And then
uh.. there were those who were willing and ready to engage in that
march, but the Court had indicated at a certain point we had to kind of
pare down the number, and only have, I guess, about from three to five
hundred on the way that would go to march to Montgomery, because of the
safety factor. And so then on that Sunday, the 21^st^, we left Selma,
and we camp- we camped three times, getting to the outskirts of
Montgomery on- on March the 24^th^. And then because on March the 25^th^
we were to march all the way from St. Jude campground in Montgomery to
the capitol. And so form Sunday to Wednesday, we marched from Selma to
the outskirts of Montgomery. And that night, that Wednesday night, there
was a long flatbed truck used as a stage to entertain us, and we had
uh.. entertainers from all over the world to come and entertain us on
that stage, such as Harry Belafonte, Peter, Paul and Mary. You had uh..
also many other persons who came there to share. James Baldwin and uhm..
Sammy Davis, Jr., to share in uh.. their support and the commitment that
we had for the right to vote, because the next day, Thursday, we were to
get up and then proceed from that point of St. Jude to the Capitol of
Montgomery when Dr. King was to make that speech on Thursday, March
25^th^ on the steps of the Capitol. And so we formed the line of march,
the Thursday, Thursday morning. And I can remember that front line. To
my left was Jose Williams holding his daughter. I marched next to him
and Mrs. King marched to my right. Dr. King marching next to her. And
then Dr. Ralph Bunch, the first African American Nobel Peach Prize
winner, marching next to him. And to his right, marching Mrs. Abernathy,
to her right marched her husband, Ralph Abernathy. To his right marched
John Lewis, who today is the United States Congress from Georgia. To his
right, marched A. Philip Randolph, who at that time was president of the
Porters' Union. And he helped to organize the 1963 march on Washington,
where Dr. King made that famous speech, I have a dream. And to his
right, marched Rosa Parks. As the front line they are moving down Dexter
Avenue, 50,000 people, a sea of humanity, moving down Dexter Avenue on
the way to the Capitol to hear Dr. King make that speech that day. I
have the folder from which he made that speech. As I sat on that
platform, looking over that sea of humanity, I had a feeling of great
triumph and victory, after having gone through all of the indignities
and all of the sacrifices. And that all seemed worth it, because then
Lyndon Baines Johnson, the President of the United State, then signed
into law the 1965 Voting Rights Act based on what happened beginning in
Selma, Alabama. And now that all minorities, and all persons regardless
of color, will now the opportunity to register to vote and to
participate in the political process. Many lives had been affected. May
lives given really for the right to vote. And every chance I get I try
to encourage young people, citizens of Selma, citizens of all America,
to actually take advantage of this great right, the right to vote,
because then you have an opportunity to participate in the political
process that would determine the quality of life in every community in
our nation. And so I stand today, not uh.. saying how great I am, but
how great God is. It was he who led and directed even my life and the
lives of others who are part of that great movement. And I stand here
today to encourage those who would uh.. want to participate in the
political process, to let nothing stand in their way, because lives were
given, sacrifices were made, and now you have that glorious right, the
right to vote.

Q: That's marvelous. I can imagine there must have been a lot going
through your mind. You were one of the courageous eight. Perhaps you
could talk a little about the courage that you saw displayed during
those eventful two weeks.

\<crew talk\>

Q: If we could perhaps have a bit of an insight into the courage that it
actually took, that you witnessed, that you conjured up yourself.

**Fredrick Reese:** Well, it was uh.. certainly uh.. a time wherein you
really had to of had a commitment, you know, for this particular right
to vote, because efforts were made to really discourage any
participation by any citizen, you know, to uh.. actually pursue this
right. And therefore, in light of the injunction that I mentioned that
was issued, in 1964, we were not allowed to uh.. hold mass meetings in
churches, because the mass meetings prior to that time were used
somewhat as uhm.. the Indians used what we call the pow wows, wherein
they would hold a pow wow, and they would drum up great uh.. courage and
uh.. enthusiasm for going out and doing whatever needed to have been
done. And so those mass meetings wherein we would go and we would have
prayer, we'd sing songs, and you would hear of persons who had gone out
on uhm.. on marches for that particular day, and they would come back
and- and they would give a account of the courageous uhm.. acts that
were really given at any particular time of that day. How some were
arrested. Some were uh.. actually uh.. beaten in a sense uh.. at some
points. But there, again, uh.. it took the kind of courage and
commitment. And when you come to the mass meeting, and there were young
people who started really uh.. the movement in a sense, and then parents
would come to the mass meeting to find out what happened to their child
the day- uh.. that they had done uh.. the march, because their children
were in jail. And consequently sitting in that mass meeting, listening
to speakers, myself and others, talking about uh.. the courageous acts
that had gone on before, the kind of commitment there was for the right
to vote, then those parents, many of the- of the parents then, caught
uh.. that same degree of enthusiasm. And then not only were students
arrested, but now you had students and their parents arrested, staying
in the jail together. And so then because of that injunction, and we
were prohibited from holding any further mass meetings, the eight of us
who were basically officers of the Dallas County Voters League, who
decided we were not going to let them just keep us from really kind of
keep the fire burning until at such time we could really uh.. resume the
mass meetings and involve those other persons in the community. And so
the eight of us, the eight officers who were there, we would meet in
houses. We'd meet in offices, but we would- we met to keep the fire
burning. And to make additional plans, because we looked forward to
actually breaking that injunction, and to get whatever assistance that
we needed in order to pursue that right to vote. And that was a
commitment that uh.. we had. And those officers would meet, and we would
strategize and we would uh.. uhm.. actually share ideas and
opportunities for making sure that we would pursue that right. And so
the- the phrase was coined, you know, after the movement for the
courageous eight. In fact, I didn't know what we were being called until
after that time. But the courageous eight, because we were the ones of
the Dallas County Voters League, who kept, so to speak, the fire burning
during the period, the period of time when the injunction was issued by
the Circuit Court here.

Q: Why did all of this occur in Selma? Why did Selma become such the
leadership, such the progenitors of such a movement. Why was it Selma,
Alabama?

**Fredrick Reese:** Well, I think that uh.. several things, I guess,
accounted for that. First of all uh.. Selma had been uh.. the seat of
where the White Citizen Council was- this was the, I guess, the birth
place, Selma. And there was tremendous opposition to uhm.. basic uh..
rights of minorities. Of course, that was all over the South, but Selma
seemed to have been uh.. embedded with resistance. You had a sheriff
here that was uh.. known for his resistance. And the kind of uh.. of
opportunities that were denied uh.. the basic rights of minorities was
quite obvious. And, of course, Selma had people in it who were
courageous and- and some people didn't know it. And therefore, when the
uh.. the opportune time presented itself, then the opportunity to show
the courageous uh.. atmosphere that existed among certain citizens
became apparent. Now, I was born in Selma. Selma's my home. I said I
attended elementary, high school and- and uh.. ca- came back to Selma.
And, of course, always said that regardless of the personnel that you
might have uh.. available to carry out a mandate, uh.. being a
Christian, I believe that God intervenes in people lives, and he
intervenes in- in, not only in people, but in situations that uh..
really we are not keenly aware at certain points in life. And I can
recall that even when I was in the 10^th^ grade, something happened in
my life that uh.. I uh.. could look back, and I could point to that
particular incident. There's a incident that was preparing me to lead a
non-violent movement in my home town, Selma. I was in the 10^th^ grade,
and we loved to uh.. well, at that time, we didn't have any cafeteria.
You brought your lunch from home, and you would have uh.. recess on the
campus. And everybody went out for recess and ate your lunch and your-
in the bag you brought from the house, or whatever. But then as a part
of that ground, recreational ground, we called it down and ground. On
that part of the ground at recess time, boys went to that part of the
ground, and we would wrestle a box, and he stood on any part of that
ground, anyone could challenge you, could box you down or wrestle you
down to the ground during the recess period. I just loved to go to down
and ground. I went to the down and ground and that day uh.. after having
wrestles several ones, and I was still standing. But then one fellow
came and slapped me as hard as he could slap me, and that slap
reverberated all over the campus. And my peers knew that I had a little
temper. And they knew what to expect. And so, you know, if they would
form a round, a ring around the circle so that- like a boxing ring, so
they could see uh.. me perform my usual attack. But something came over
me that day. And said, now, when are you going to learn some sense? And
I answered that question in my mind. When am I going to really learn,
because I had a temper. And that day, instead of retaliating, I walked
out the circle of my peers. I didn't even strike that boy back. And I
went to the office, the principal, and reported the incident, for the
first time. I had a feeling of great release because for the first time
I had learned how to control my temper. And I rose- I say this to any
young person from my experience, if I could see that boy I would thank
him for that slap. That slap made me a man. For then I learned that the
measure of a man or a woman is not determined behind what you can give,
but how much you can take. For the first time, I was able to take and
that slap made me a man. Nor was I aware that that slap was preparing
me, 20 years later, to lead a movement here in my home town, Selma,
Alabama.

Q: You mentioned one of our playing sessions for the New User \[ph?\]
Center, you mentioned some incidents of discrimination there I wish you
would share. The story that stands out in my mind was selecting shoes.
But I'm sure you had some other examples of the kinds of discrimination
that you and yours experienced.

**Fredrick Reese:** But well, during that particular time, as you said,
that uh.. during a period of segregation and discrimination, uh.. you
could walk uh.. in a store, per se, and, of course, ladies were not
necessarily allowed to try on the dresses and their garments at that
time, and also, so far as shoes were concerned. So then, you know, have
to guess the right size. Or if you had uh.. a pattern was meant that
you- if you had a piece of pasteboard, that uh.. gave the outline of the
width and the length of your foot, then you might uh.. indicate uh.. the
size shoe that uh.. you could wear. So there were many acts of
discrimination, you know. And then uh.. you could not uhm.. you could
not go to the front door uh.. of a white citizens house. You had to go
to the back door. And due to the fact that you had uh.. segregation on
buses, you could not sit in the front of the bus. You had to go to the
back of the bus. And uh.. and one occasion wherein I was riding the bus
from Selma to Montgomery, prior to that uh.. particular movement
however, that the bus was filled with passengers. And there were blacks
standing in the aisle. And there was one seat that was vacant next to a
white woman on the bus. And because there was a black woman standing, I
asked her if she wanted to be seated. And she said, no. I took the seat.
And then the driver looked back through the rear view mirror, and uh..
saw me sitting there. And, of course, I had indicated that, you know, I
was not going to be moved unless I was moved. I enjoyed that ride from
all the way from Selma to Montgomery that night. But there were those
others who stood in the aisles because uh.. they could not sit. A number
of incidents wherein uhm.. I desegregated uhm.. the cafeteria here in
Selma. I went to the Parron's \[ph?\] Cafeteria here on Broad Street and
I went there during the- the well, it was during the dinner hour. And,
of course, there were those who stood in the cafeteria line, whites who
were ready to be served. And I walked in and uh.. I had my hat and coat.
I put my hat and coat on the rack, and got in line. And as the line
proceed down the serving table, and one of the persons behind the
serving line asked me if uh.. they could help me. I told him, no, I
didn't need any help. I was there to get my dinner like everybody else.
And so this lady then went and she got the manager. And he came and
indicated to me if he could help me. I said, no, I don't need any help.
I'm- I'm just like everybody else here, you know, I can get my own, you
know, food. And he said that we don't serve colored folk in here. And
when he said that, I got loud. I said, what do you mean you don't serve
colored folk in here? Well I, you see I had already informed the FBI
that I was going to desegregate that particular place. And he was seated
there, cause they didn't know that he was there. And uh.. so then I got
my coat and hat and they had a hearing about a week later down in the
uh.. Federal Court building here. And it- it only lasted about, I guess,
about 30 minutes and the proprietors of that- of that cafeteria were
told that if uh.. they refuse to serve uh.. any citizen, regardless of
color, and that particular cafeteria is right on Highway 80 East, right
on Broad Street here, that they would close the cafeteria down. And, of
course, then they had to agree to that. And so I left that particular
hearing that day. Went back to the same cafeteria, just about lunch
time. Had the same hat and coat on. Put my hat and my coat on the hat
rack, got back in line, and then moved down that line, served myself, as
there and paid. And there was a- a large window right next to the
sidewalk on Broad Street here, uhm.. and I got a seat right in that big
window so everybody to come by could see me sitting there in Parron's
Cafeteria. And everybody would- the food weren't too good that day, but
I- I was waving at everybody come by so they could see me sitting in the
cafeteria window. So there were little acts, and that- that little acts
that uh.. I participated in, you know, and uh.. desegregating. And
actually uh.. finding uh.. the real source of uhm.. discrimination in
different avenues of life here.

Q: Your example of standing up to the bully made me think of your talk
about confronting Sheriff Clark. What was going through your mind there?
I know you had a strategy but you must have feared for your physical
safety. You'd brought a distinguished group of teachers there. What was
going through you mind personally?

**Fredrick Reese:** Well actually, uh.. when you have a commitment- a
great commitment drives out fear. You- you don't uh.. focus on fear but
on the objective that you have set before you. And consequently your
mind is not on how afraid you are, because you have made a decision. And
whatever eventuality that might be a part of whatever you're doing, then
you're ready to accept that. And then you move with great dispatch and
courage, not depending on basically your own strength, but being a
Christian, on the strength that come from God. Because Jesus said, said
without me, said you can do nothing. He said, I am the vine, and you the
branch. And a branch cannot ever exist unless it stays connected to the
vine, because it's to the vine that the branch receive all of its
nourishment, and as children of God, we receive strength, nourishment,
for all that is necessary. So then it's not us. It's not me. It's him
that you serve.

Q: Could I ask when the beatings were going on there at the bridge, and
you described those horrible sticks, was that still the same case? You
had no personal fear, or were you worried that maybe this could turn
into something very dangerous and deadly perhaps?

**Fredrick Reese:** When I said that uh.. commitment drives out fear.
And whatever comes then you accept that, and you put yourself uh.. in
the hands of the Lord, really. And then he directs. He guides, because
you've already uh.. committed yourself to allow him to direct, to
protect, to keep you. And whatever comes, you accept that, because you
know that all things will work together for good to those who love God,
and who are called according to his purpose.

Q: I don't want to take too much of your time, but I hope you could
speak maybe directly to our students. I don't know if you remember
meeting them, but they were very impressed with you. They were from all
across Alabama, and could you say to them.

**Fredrick Reese:** Well, I would uh.. say to all young people, first of
all they should have a goal in life that would be commensurate to
helping others. In whatever phase of life they might be in, but most of
all, being a Christian. And I'm a Christian. I have to indicate that
they should uh.. dedicate their lives and themselves to the things of
God and the word of God says that if you would seek first the kingdom of
God and his righteousness, then all these things would be entered unto
you, whatever they might be. Because that's the answer. The answer is
Jesus. I've had a lot of experience, and this is what I tell young
people all the time, that they should always seek Jesus. And put him
first, and I guarantee you that your life will be a life that will be a
blessing to many people. That's the answer. The answer is Jesus.

Q: Thank you, Reverend Reese. If there's anything else you would like to
add this would be a \<tape break\> You took the step of sitting next to
that white woman.

**Fredrick Reese:** Yes. I was uh.. a passenger and the name of that bus
was The Trailway Bus. And uh.. getting on the bus, uh.. I found that
there were blacks standing in the aisle, and there was one seat
available, because at that time blacks did not sit in the front of the
bus. They sat in the back of the bus. All the back seats were filled by
blacks. There was one seat that was not filled by a white. And there was
a black woman standing in the aisle, and I asked her to be gentleman
like, if she would like to be seated. And she said, no, because she was
afraid, I should imagine, because that was the order of the day. So then
I readily sat down. And then the bus driver looked back through the rear
view mirror, and saw me sitting there, and I was in- I'd indicated I was
not going to move unless I was moved. I enjoyed that ride all the way
from Selma to Montgomery at that time.

Q: You've had a long, wonderful ride, Rev. Reese. Thank you very much
again.

**Fredrick Reese:** O.k.

Q: Thank you, sir. My pleasure to be here.

**Fredrick Reese:** O.k. All right. Now those uh.. young people.

Q: Yes, sir.

**Fredrick Reese:** Yeah.

Q: They'll be here Saturday.

**Fredrick Reese:** Today is Saturday.

Q: But pretty much \<inaudible\>

\#### End of Tape A22 \####