**Cost Reimbursement Systems for Managers**

**BLM National Training Center Telecast**

**April 9, 1997**

This transcript is from the closed-captioning file produced during the
telecast.

It may contain errors in transcription and omissions.

Announcer: the Bureau of Land Management Satellite Network Presents Live
from the BLM National Training Center in Phoenix, Arizona, \"Cost
Reimbursement Systems,\" An Interactive Seminar for BLM Managers on
Acquiring Funds and Services for Public Land Activities. And Now, the
Host of Your Program, Mike Pool.

Pool: Good Morning, Everyone. Welcome to Our Satellite Seminar On Cost
Reimbursement Systems. Our Vision for this Seminar Is For BLM Managers
to Use More Effective, Efficient Cost Reimbursement Systems That Will
Result in Enhanced Customer Service. As Our Objective, We Want You,
BLM\'s Decision Makers, to Have The Tools You Need to Make Sound
Management Decisions. A Major Goal of Today\'s Training Is to Motivate
Everyone to Make Full Use of Our Legal Authority To Acquire Funds and
Services From Sources Other than Direct Congressional Appropriations.
Joining Me for Our First Segment Today Is Roger Hildebeidel. Roger Is
BLM\'s Deputy Assistant Director for Policy and Budget At the
Headquarters Office. Roger, Nice to Have You with Us This Morning.

Hildebeidel: Thank You, Mike. It\'s a Pleasure to Be Here in Phoenix and
Participate in this Important Training Seminar.

Pool: Thank You. Also with Us from the Department Of Interior
Solicitor\'s Office Is Nicholas Targ. Nicholas, We\'re Delighted to Have
You.

Targ: Mike, Thanks Very Much. It\'s Good to Be Here in Phoenix With You.

Pool: Before We Begin Our Discussion, I Would like to Mention That
Throughout this Program You Will Be Able to Communicate with Us via
Telephone and Fax Using the Numbers Provide to Do Your Offices. You Can
Send Us a Fax Question At Any Time. Use the Form Provided to Your
Office. Please Print Your Question with A Dark Marker and Be Sure to
Include the Phone Number in Your Viewing Room in Case We Want to Get
Back with You on the Air. You May Call Us Whenever You Would like. Our
Operators Are on Standby. In Most Cases, However, We Will Only Be
Putting Calls on the Air During Our Scheduled Interactive Segments at
Each End of the Instructional Unit. I Would Also like to Mention Our
Target Audience Today Is Line Managers. So Questions Should Be
Management Oriented Rather than Technical. If We Don\'t Have Time to Get
to Your Question Our Subject Matter Experts Will Get Back to You via
Groupwise after the Show. You Should All Have a Copy of The Bureau
Packet for this Seminar Which Was Sent to Your Offices. You Will Need to
Refer to it Throughout Our Program. Before We Start with Roger and
Nicholas, Let\'s First Go Live to Washington, D.c. and Joining Us Now Is
Mat Millenbach, BLM Deputy Director. Mat, Thanks for Being with Us This
Morning.

Millenbach: Thank You, Mike. First of All, I Want to Thank All the Field
Office Managers And Other BLM People That Are Involved in Cost Recovery
for Their Hard Work and for Taking Time out of Their Schedules to
Participate in this Broadcast. This Focus on Cost Recovery Is An
Important Part of Our Effort To Save Dollars and Financial Resources in
These Days of Declining Budgets. First We Have to Manage Our Cost
Recovery Programs More Efficiently. For Example, a 1990 Ig Report, 95‑i
747 Indicates We Are Spending Far More Money to Process Applications
than We\'re Collecting in Processing Fees. We\'re Losing Approximately
\$640,000 Annually Bureauwide. Within BLM, Cost Reimbursement Has a Long
History. Especially in Management of Rights‑of‑way with the Changing
Fiscal and Political Environment We Have to Expand the Use of Cost
Reimbursement Principles to Other Programs to the Greatest Extent
Possible. The Cost Recovery and Other Revenue Source Report Located in
Your Training Packet Contains Examples of Where We Could Increase Our
Cost Reimbursement Collections. For the Programs and Services That BLM
Provides. You Also Have a Copy in Your Course Training Packet of the
December 5th, 1997, M Opinion Issued by the Solicitor Entitled BLM\'s
Authority to Recover Costs For Mineral Document Processing. This Opinion
Provides an Excellent History and Summary of BLM\'s Authority to Collect
Processing Fees for a Wide Range Of Services Provided. The 1996 and 1997
a Appropriations Acts Expanded BLM\'s Authority to Collect Fees Through
Establishing up to 100 Demonstration Recreation Pilot Projects. BLM\'s
17 Approved Pilots Are All New Sites Where We Will Collect Entrance Fees
and Fees at Visitor Centers. We Intend to Direct 100% of the Fees Back
to the Site of Collection for Maintenance, Project Work, Health and
Safety Improvements and to Reduce Environmental Degradation. The
Collection of Processing and Other Fees Will Free up Available Dollars
for BLM Field Offices and Maximize Additional Resources to Provide
Customer Service and on the Ground Management. During this Broadcast You
Will Being Here from District Managers in Moab and Worland, Who Will
Provide Examples of How Expanded Cost Reimbursement Activities Are
Facilitating Resource Management on Our Public Lands. I Cannot Emphasize
Enough the Importance of Efficiently Managing Our Cost Recovery
Programs. It\'s Required of Us. It\'s Plain Good Business Management.
And We Will Have More Dollars With Which to Do Our Jobs.

Pool: Thank You, Mat. Before You Leave the Broadcast, Do You Have Any
Closing Thoughts Or Recommendations to Our Field Office Managers on How
They Can Become More Proficient in the Use of Cost Recovery Systems,
Particularly Those Managers That Have Limited Experience?

Millenbach: Yeah, Mike. I Think There Are Several Things They Can Do.
For Example, in the Packets That We Provided, There\'s a Lot of Basic
Information about Cost Recovery and Cost Reimbursement That They Should
Avail Themselves Of. I Think Another Thing to Do Is To Consult with Some
of Their Fellow Managers and Some of Our ‑‑ Some Parts of Our
Organization in the Field, for Example in Moab and Worland, We Have a
Lot of Experience That Our Line Managers Have Gained Over the Years and
I Think That If They Would Talk to Some of Their Peers in the Field, Our
Managers Can Get Some Good Advice. Finally, I Think If They Would Talk
to Some of the Technical People in the State Offices and In the
Washington Office Who Have Been Working on Cost Recovery for a Long
Time, I Think That\'s Another Source of Information That Really Will
Help People Get on Top of this Program.

Pool: Well, We Thank You for Being with Us this Morning, Mat And
Appreciate Your Perspectives On this Important Program.

Millenbach: Thank You, Mike.

Pool: You Bet. Before We Continue, I Would like To Mention Our Seminar
Today Will Be Presented in Two Units Separated by a Short Break. If You
Go to Your Viewer Packet, You Can See That the Objective Of Our First
Unit Is as Follows: We Want BLM Decision Makers to Be Able to Apply
Financial Tools To Bureau Management Activities Within the Current
Political Environment Consistent with Our Legal Authorities and Our
Budget Trends While Meeting Expectations of Our Customers. To Kick
Things off in That Arena, We Are Going to Start With Roger Hildebeidel,
Who Will Discuss What Is Happening on Capitol Hill and Some of the
Administration\'s Initiatives. Roger?

Hildebeidel: Thank You, Mike. Before We Discuss the Current Events on
Capitol Hill, and Some Of the Initiatives That We Have, I Would like to
Mention Today That Our Program Will Discuss Three Distinct but Separate
Types of Cost Reimbursement Techniques. For Clarity We Have Called Them,
1, Dedicated Fees, Which Are Returned to BLM for Program Accomplishments
Such as the Recreation Fees; Second Is the Cost Recovery for Services
Provided to Benefitting Customers Such as Right‑of‑way Applicants, and
Third Are Funding Partnerships Either Through Contributions of Funds To
BLM or Challenge Cost‑share Projects Where Partners Match BLM Money.
They Are Distinct Because They Have Separate and Distinct Legal
Authorities and Concepts of the My Co‑panelist, Nicholas Targ, Of the
Solicitor\'s Office, Will Discuss Some of the Legal Concepts in a Few
Minutes. But I Would like to Mention Too They Are Similar in That the
Funds Are Not Derived from Our General Tax Revenues Such as Our Regular
Operating Accounts, the Management, Lands and Resources Account and the
O&c Account. While There Is Authority Provided in the Appropriations
Acts Language to Use the Fees And the Dedicated Fees That Come Back to
BLM, They Are Treated Somewhat Differently in the Budget Process Because
of the Relationship of the Income and The Expenditure, and They\'re Not
Looked at Quite in the Same Way As Our Normal Operating Accounts Are. So
the First Question You Might Have Is: Why Are We Doing this? Why Are We
Doing this Seminar to Emphasize Cost Reimbursement and The Uses of These
Funds? Well, There Are Several Reasons. One, There Is a Long‑standing
Administrative and Statutory Policy That Requires BLM to Obtain
Reimbursement for the Cost of Providing Special Services to Customers.
We\'re Not Doing it Because We Want to Be Mean and Nasty as an
Organization, but We\'re Required To Do it by Law and by Policy.
Secondly, There Are Currently a Lot of Budget Pressures on Us to Stretch
Our Appropriated Resources to Meet Additional Demands for BLM Services
and Programs. And, Thirdly, We Are Trying to Get More Dollars into on
the Ground Activities and Meet the New Demands of Our Customers. Cost
Reimbursement Authority Has Been Around a Long Time, as Mat Indicated in
His Introduction. Omb Circular A‑25 Sets up User Fees and Has Been in
Existence a Long Time. But There Are Renewed Interests In Using These
Authority Effectively. Some of this Interest Arises Because Both the
Congress and The President Have Agreed That They\'re Committed to
Achieving a Balanced Federal Budget by 2002. President Clinton
Highlighted This Goal in His Second Inaugural Address and Members of The
Congress a Clearly Indicated That this Is Also a Goal That They\'re
Headed Toward. By Moving Toward this Goal of a Balanced Budget by 2002,
There Are Limits on What the Congress And the President Are Able to Do
With the General Tax Appropriations. So the Effect of Having a Balanced
Budget Goal Is to Put An Increasing Squeeze on That Part of the Federal
Budget That Includes BLM\'s Funding. Our Out‑year Projections of What
Our Budget Will Look like over The next Five Years Are Basically a Flat,
No‑increase Budget. When You Look at the Graph That\'s on the Monitor in
Front Of You, You Will See in Nominal Terms Our Dollar Line Increases
Slightly, but When You Factor in The Effect of Cost Increases and Pay
Raises, You Will Note That The Line Is Essentially Flat. So What Can We
Do? For Us to Meet Growing Program Demands and to Provide Services That
Customers Want, We Have Several Choices. We Can Cut Costs, Which We\'re
Trying to Do. We Can Eliminate Certain Services or Programs. Or We Can
Seek to Use These Additional Authorities for Partnerships, Dedicated Fee
and Cost Recovery. In Response to Current Administration Initiatives and
The Taxpayers\' Demand That We Have a Government That Works Better and
Costs Less, We Have Been Streamlining Many of Our Processes. We Have
Been Trying to Reduce Our Overhead Costs, and We Have Been Cutting Our
Process Costs. We Need to Keep Doing That. But We Also Need to Become
More Active in Seeking Additional Funding Through These Other Sources
That Are Available to Us. I Think That Most People Who Want Services
from BLM Are Willing to Pay Fair Fees If They Get a Good Response and a
Quality Product from the Bureau. This Means That We Need to Be Sure That
We Understand the Costs of Our Processes and That We Charge Reasonable
Fees. At the Headquarters Level, We\'re Also Working to Try and Make
Sure That These Dedicated Fees That Are Collected by the Bureau Are
Returned to the Bureau and To the Office of Origin for Providing this
Improved Service And Program Delivery, and Mat Mentioned That in ‑‑
Specifically in Terms of the Recreation Fee Demonstration Pilot Program.
This Program, Which Has Established 17 New Recreation Fee Pilot Sites to
Test Various Fee Systems, Is One of Two Very Recent Events by the
Congress That Shows Our Support ‑‑ Their Support for Our Efforts to
Improve Cost Recovery. All of the Funds Collected Are Returned to BLM
and to the Site Of Origination. Secondly, There Is Also Additional
Language in Our \'97 Management of Lands and Resources Account That
Provides Us Authority to Use All Fees in Excess of \'96 Collections for
Public Lands, Authorizations, Public Land Resources and Providing
Specific Services to BLM Customers. This Is Clear Congressional
Authorization and Support for BLM to Increase Our Efforts in These
Arenas. As a Final Related Item, I Would Like to Mention That Several
Weeks Ago There Was Another Satellite Broadcast in the Bureau Discussing
the BLM\'s Strategic Plan Which Is Now Being Prepared. This Strategic
Plan Outlines the Major Guidance and Direction for The Bureau over the
next Five Years and Is Closely Tied to Our Out‑year Budget Projections.
One Major Theme of the Strategic Plan Is to Get More Resources Onto the
Ground and to Serving Customers. And a Second Fact of the Strategic Plan
Is it Contains Several Performance Goals That Are Directly Tied to
Enhancing Cost Recovery and Funding Partnerships. In Light of These
Events, I Think It\'s Very Important and Very Timely That We Be More
Active in Using These Authorities That We Have to Collect and Retain
Fees and to Do Work Which Our Customers Want And for Us to Be Able to
Manage The Public Lands. So, Mike, I Think That Covers The Points I
Wanted to Make at This Time.

Pool: Great. Thank You, Roger. It Appears the Message Is Clear\...
Because of Our Decreasing Capabilities, Not Only in Budget, but Also in
Staff, BLM Needs to Make Better Use of Existing Authorities to Increase
the Dollars We Need to Accomplish Our Mission. But Why Haven\'t We Done
More of This in the past? To Some Extent There Has Been a Lot of
Misunderstanding about Just What Our Authority Really Is. People Have
Been Afraid of Lawsuits, and it Hasn\'t Always Been Clear as to the
Amount of Management Attention That Is Necessary. So to Get Everyone on
the Right Track in Understanding the BLM\'s Authority with Respect to
Cost Reimbursement, Let\'s Go to Nicholas Targ. Nicholas?

Targ: Thanks, Mike. I Am Very Pleased to Be Invited To Participate in
BLM\'s Training Program. Too Frequently the Office of the Solicitor
Becomes Involved with BLM Issues after They\'ve Turned Into Problems.
Thus, We Are Frequently in a Crisis Mode, Which Can Limit Your Options
and Can Make Us Seem, Well, Maybe Just a Little Bit Defensive. Many of
You Think of Us like This. By Working with Us Earlier in The Process,
You May Start to See Us in a Different Way. I\'m Going to Talk about
Legal Tools Which Bring Back Money to BLM and Can Help You and the
Public and Individual Applicants Get Projects Completed or Petitioner\'s
Requests Answered Faster at a Time When Budgets Are Tight. Importantly,
the Tools Can Also Help Strengthen the Bond Between The BLM and the
Public. From Your Solicitor\'s Point of View, Best of All, You Can Use
These Tools with Very Little Risk of Litigation. I Would like to Start
off by Talking about Cost Recovery. Cost Recovery Has Been Around For a
Long Time Now. The Independent Office\'s Appropriation Act, the Ioaa,
Was Passed in 1952, about 45 Years Ago. The Ioaa Is Still in Force and
Is Supplemented by Cost Recovery Authority under Flpma and the Mineral
Leasing Act. All of These Statutes Have Been Litigated Extensively,
Which Is A Good Thing for You. Each Time a Case Is Decided, the Court
Puts up a Sign Post Telling the Agency How to Implement its Authority
and Let\'s the Public Know What to Expect. The Litigation for the Most
Part Is Historical Now. BLM Published Cost Recovery Regulations in the
Rights‑of‑way Context and as Required by a Matter of Law Implemented
Them About 10 Years Ago. The Regulations Are Based on What We\'ve
Learned Through the Litigation, and since That Time, BLM Has Only Been
Sued a Handful Of Times, Even Though the Agency Uses its Authority about
3,000 Times Annually. Of the Cases Brought, We Haven\'t Lost One. What
We Know Is this\... To Do Cost Recovery, We Need Three Things: We Need a
Statute, We Need Regulations Implementing The Statute for a Specific
Cost Recovery Activity, like Rights‑of‑way, We Need Appropriations
Language Authorizing the Recovered Monies Use and We Need to Have Some
Guidance and We Have All of Those Things. We Have the Statute, We Have
the Regulations, and We\'ve Been Using it and Been Using it Effectively.
The New Solicitor\'s Opinion Gives Us the Guidance That We Need as Well.
I Would like to Talk First about What Exactly Is Cost Recovery? Cost
Recovery Allows BLM to Recoup Specific Charges from Identifiable
Recipients of Services That Provide a Special Benefit Not Shared by the
Public. Each Word There in Each Phrase Is Pretty Highly Nuanced. Court
Cases Have Defined the Meaning of These Phrases, and I Want to Go
Through a Couple of Them in Some Greater Detail. One of the More
Important Terms Or Phrases Is a Special Benefit Not Shared by the
General Public, and this Includes Activities Related to the Permit, Not
Just the Permit Itself. For Example, it Includes the Nepa Compliance
That We\'re Required to Conduct. So it Could Include an Ea,
Environmental Assessment, or an Eis, If That\'s What\'s Required. It Can
Include the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act,
Nagpra. And Other Activities That Are Required to Get the Permit
Process. Now, the Applicant May Not See These Kinds of Analyses as to
Their Benefit, but They Are, Because They\'re Required in Order to Get
the Permit Processed. Without Conducting this Kind of Analysis, There Is
Simply No Way For Them to Get the Permit That They Want or Grant of
Right‑of‑way. The Special Charges ‑‑ Excuse Me, the Specific Charges:
What Can We Charge for? As I Just Said, You Can Charge For the ‑‑ All
the Analysis, the Direct Processing Costs of the Application. What You
Can\'t Charge for Is the Management Overhead That\'s Not Directly
Related to the Permit Or Request That\'s at Issue. So, for Example, Mike
Pool or Hord Tipton Who We Are Going to See a Little Bit Later On, Their
Salary Is Going to Have to Come From Some Other Source, but I Wouldn\'t
Worry about That Too Much. I Think That They Aren\'t Going To Be Missing
Any Meals. To the Extent That Your Solicitors Are Providing You
Services, However, Their Costs Can Be Included. I Want to Address One
Other Point on this Issue, and That Is The Fastest Way to Lose a Case,
Really the Only Way to Lose a Cost Recovery Case, If You Follow the
Regulations, Is by Not Documenting Your Costs. Epa Recently Lost a Case,
and They Lost the Case Not Because They Didn\'t Have the Authority To
Collect Costs from Their Permitting and Compliance and Enforcement
Program, but They Simply Didn\'t Document Their Costs. They Didn\'t
Explain Their Billing in a Way That the Court Said Was in \"Plain
English.\" The Applicants Have a Right to Know What You\'re Charging
Them For and They Have a Right to Know How You Came up with That Number.
Keep Good Records. If You Keep Good Records and Keep to the Regs,
You\'re Going To Be Just Fine. Cost Recovery Is Mandatory. The
Departmental Manual Provides That ‑‑ Requires That a Charge Which
Recovers the Costs for Services Which Provides Special Benefits to an
Identifiable Nonfederal Recipient. It\'s Been the Policy of the United
States since 1952 Through Omb Circular A25 to Collect Costs and to Make
the Agencies Self‑sustaining for Benefits Conferred to Private
Individuals, and It\'s the Department\'s Mandate to Go Forward and
Collect Those Costs. There Are 2 Statutes Which Give Us Authority,
Principal Authority, to Collect Money Through Cost Recovery and Those
Are Flpma and the Mineral Leasing Act. I Want to Address Some of the
Factors under Flpma. Flpma Allows Us to Collect Money For Permits and
the Rights‑of‑way, as I Said. However, it Doesn\'t Allow You to Collect
All of the Money Associated with the Permitting Process. It Only Allows
You to Collect The Reasonable Costs of the Permitting or the Application
Processing, and There Are Specific Reasonableness Factors Which You Need
to Consider in You\'re Going to Be Undertaking a Major Right‑of‑way
Activity, a Right‑of‑way Activity That Exceeds \$1,000. Those Are as
Follows. I Just Want to Touch on Them. The Actual Cost of the Service,
The Monetary Value of the Privilege Provided, the Efficiency of the
Processing, The Portion of the Cost Benefitting the Public, and the
Public Service Provided. Now If You Have a Class 1 Through Class 4
Application for A Right‑of‑way, an Application Under \$1,000, You Don\'t
Need to Consider These Factors Because They Have Already Been Imputed In
the Cost Classification. However, If You Have a Class 5 Application, Go
Through, Consider Each One of the Factors, Describe How You\'re Thinking
about Using Them, or How You Thought about Using Them, Allow Us If We
Need to in Court to Demonstrate That to the Court. Finally, under the
Mla, it Covers Rights‑of‑way, but Only In the Oil and Gas Context. While
It\'s More Narrow in the Sorts of Costs That You Can Collect, It\'s
Broader Because You Can Collect the Fair Price, The Fair Cost, Rather,
Not Just The Cost as Imputed Through the Reasonableness Factors. I Want
to Touch Briefly on Another Tool That You Have, and Those Are Partnering
Tools. From Your Lawyer\'s Perspective, There Are Two Types of
Partnering Tools. In Fact, from Your Lawyer\'s Perspective, You Can
Divide the World this Way: Legally Defined Partnering Tools and
Nonlegally Defined Partnering Tools. The Nonlegally Defined Partnering
Tools Include Interagency Agreements, Economy Act Agreements, Grants,
and Procurement Contracts. I Would like to Mention on Procurement
Contracts That Those Cover Both Services and Products. So, for Example,
You Can Outsource for an Eis If You Need To. In Terms of the Not Legally
Defined Partnering Tools, Those Include Agreements Generally. Now,
People Typically Think of Agreements as Coming in Two Forms: Moas and
Mous, Memorandums of Understanding. These Two Things Are the Same Thing.
They\'re Both Agreements. There\'s No Legal Distinction Between Them.
These Can Be Used to Harmonize Policies for Mutual Gain and Benefit. In
the Rock Springs Area, Michelle Chavez Has Been Using These Very
Effectively for the 150th Anniversary of the Mormon Trail. She Has Been
Coordinating with The Counties and the Church of Latter Day Saints for
Law Enforce Ment and Tourism. One Way That You Can Really Leverage the
Power That We Have And Really Gain Benefits for All The Parties
Involved, Is Through Contribution Authority That You Have. And You Have
Great Deal of Contribution Authority. However, I Want to Mention a
Couple of Things That You Have To Be Careful about. These Will Keep You
out of Trouble. Be Consistent with Your Authority. Simply Because You
Have the Authority to Collect Money Doesn\'t Give You the Right to Act
Outside of Your Mandate. Keep Impeccable Records. The Ig May Want to
Know What it Is That You Used the Money for And How You Used It. So May
the Contributor. Don\'t Use the Gift Authority to Avoid Contract
Situations. Quid Pro Quos Are Really Frowned Upon. And Please Do Not
Accept Gifts In Your Personal Capacity. The Office of the Solicitor Can
Keep You out of Trouble and Can Help You. If You Take Money in Your
Personal Capacity We May Not Be Able to Be There for You and Neither the
Department of Justice. So Contact Your Office of the Solicitor Early.
We\'re Here to Help You. We\'re Here to Keep You out of Trouble and
We\'re Here to Protect You. I Would like to Thank You Very Much for the
Participation That You\'ve Afforded Me Today.

Pool: Nicholas, Let Me Ask You a Question. From Your Perspective, Is it
Proper for BLM to Give a Higher Degree of Priority to Customers That Are
Paying for a Processing Fee or Other Related Costs?

Targ: Mike, It\'s an Interesting Question. The Reason Why ‑‑ One of the
Reasons Why It\'s Interesting Is Because Cost Recovery Is Mandatory, All
Entities, All Applicants Should Go and Pay for The Cost of Their
Application Processing. If You Aren\'t Paying for That, Then You\'ve Got
a Problem. However, If Money Is Made Available, and If the Agency
Wouldn\'t Have the Resources Otherwise to Conduct the Cost ‑‑ To Conduct
the Application Processing, Then You Can Absolutely Increase the
Capacity Based on the Contribution or the Money Provided Through the
Cost Recovery Authority.

Pool: Okay. Great. Thank You Very Much.

Targ: Thank You.

Pool: Nice Tie, by the Way. At this Point We Would like to Look at How
Cost Reimbursement Relates to BLM\'s Budget Management and the
Importance of Cost Reimbursement to BLM. Roger, I Believe You Have Some
Information for Us on this.

Hildebeidel: Yes, I Do. Nicholas Has Discussed the Legal Basis and
Authority for the Different Types of Cost Recovery And Fee Collections
That We Have. People Want to Know, I Think, How Significant Is this on
Our Budget. Well, Our Current Operating Budget for the Bureau of Land
Management Totals about \$990 Million, and of That, about 9% Of Those
Resources, Roughly \$90 Million, Comes from a Combination of Dedicated
Fees, Cost Recovery and Dollars Contributed to BLM from Nonfederal
Partners to Help Us Do Our Work. So it Is a Significant Part of Our
Capability to Manage the Lands and to Provide Services in The BLM. Some
of These Sources Have Existed for a Long Time and I\'m Sure Many of You
Are Familiar With Them. The 8100 Account, the Range Improvements
Account, for Example, Is Derived from a Portion of the Grazing Fee, and
This Account Has Been in Existence since the Mid‑1930s. Others Are Very
New, Such as the Recreation Fee Pilot Demonstration Program That We\'ve
Referred to a Couple of Times. This Just Started this Year. So We Have a
Wide Distribution Of These Kinds of Authorities And Funding Across the
Bureau. I like to Just Run Through a Few Of Them So Many of You People
Are Familiar with Them and Perhaps You\'re Not Familiar with All of
Them. The First, for Example, the \$100 Mining Claim Holding Fee That
The Miner Pays to Hold an Unpatented Mining Claim Provides Funding for
the Bureau of Land Management to Run the Entire Mining Law
Administration Program. This Is about \$32 Million a Year. The
Right‑of‑way Processing Fees, the 5100 Account That Many Of You Are
Familiar With, Is Used by the Bureau to Process Applications for
Rights‑of‑way And Due Compliance on Rights‑of‑way Grants. The Wild Horse
and Burro Adoption Fees, the Copy Fees, Road Maintenance Fees, the New
Communication Site Management Program, the 1492 Subactivity Provides Us
\$2 Million to Manage Communication Sites. This Is a New Authority That
We Have. And We Have Other Service Charges That Are in the 5,000 Series.
Many of You Are Familiar with Them. We Have the Forest Ecosystem Health
and Recovery Fund, the 5900 Account, Which Is Derived From Timber
Salvage Sale Receipts. And We Have the Recreation Fees, Both Those
Derived from the Land And Water Conservation Fund Sites, like
Campgrounds and Recreation Permits, and the New Recreation Fee
Demonstration Program. And Then Finally We Have the Contributions That
Are from Nonfederal Sources Such as the California Off‑highway Vehicle
Fund and Other Types of Income Coming from Different Nonfederal
Partners. So We Do Have a Number of These Kinds of Accounts and I\'m
Sure Many of You Are Familiar with Them.

Pool: Roger, If I Could Briefly Interrupt, I Would like To Take a Minute
and Mention to The Downlink Sites We Will Be Going to the Phones in a
Few Minutes for Our First Question And Answer Period. So If You Have a
Question or Comment for Either Nicholas or Roger, Please Give Us a Call
or Send Us a Fax. Remember, to Avoid an Echo Effect When You Call, Stand
Away From Your Tv or Turn down the Volume. Don\'t Get Frustrated If You
End Up on Hold for a While. We\'ll Get to You as Fast as We Can. Back to
You, Roger.

Hildebeidel: Thanks, Mike. Many of You Are Saying \"Well, What Does this
\$90 Million Provide?\" Well, for One Thing, it Pays for About 900
Full‑time Equivalent Employees in Our Work Force. These Are People That
Would Either Have to Be Paid from General Funds or Wouldn\'t Even Be on
Our Payroll, but They\'re There Because of These Sources Of Funds and
They Are There to Provide the Services to Our Customers That They\'re
Paying For. By Using These Funds, Particularly the Cost Recovery Funds,
We Deliver Specific Services to Our Customers Such As the Rights‑of‑way
Applicants And Rights‑of‑way Grant Holders. We Also Provide Service to
People Who Want Copies of Public Land Records and in the Recreation
Program, for Example, We Provide Services to People Who Find Recreation
on the Public Lands. So Without These Funds, We Could Not Provide the
Service or the Quality or the Timeliness of the Service That They Want.
Also from These Sources of Funds We Provide Some on the Ground
Management in Terms of Projects With Our Partners and from
Contributions. So They Are an Important Way in Which We Stretch Our
Budgets That Complement Our General Fund Appropriation Budgets. They Are
Important Parts of Our Future Budgets Scenario, Especially in These
Times of the Balanced Budget Goals. I Know That Many of You Are
Concerned in the Field About, Well, We Collect this Money and What
Happens to It? From a Bureauwide Policy Perspective, Those of Us at
Headquarters Are Working, One, To Have These Dedicated Fees Returned to
the BLM So We Can Use Them to Provide Services and To Do Program
Management. Secondly, We Are Trying to Work To Assure That They Are
Being Returned to the Office of Origin, Such as in the Recreation Fee
Pilot Demonstration Program. These Funds Provide Dollars Directly to
Your Offices to Do Work and to Respond to Customer Demands. So They Are
an Important Source Of Funding for Us All. In the Arena of Cost
Recovery, I Think It\'s Important to Remember That We Have to Collect
the Proper Amount of Reimbursement. If We Do Not, We Are Shifting The
Burden of Paying the Costs Of Providing These Services to Our Regular
Operating Budget, And in Times of Tightening Budget Levels, this Means
That We Squeeze out Other Funds That We Need to Do Other Work, and
We\'re Subsidizing or Paying Costs That Should Be Recovered From the
Applicant. Similarly, in Programs Supported By Dedicated Fees, like the
Recreation Program, it Is Important That We Proceed Diligently in Your
Offices and On the Ground to Collect These Fees, since the Money Does
Come Back to BLM and Then Back to the Office of Origin to Do the Kind Of
Program Work That\'s Needed on The Ground, Maintenance and Site
Improvement and Operations. Finally, the Active Use of Funding
Partnerships like the Challenge Cost Share Projects Will Enhance the
Bureau\'s Ability to Do Our on the Ground Resource Management Job. So
They Are Important Sources of Funding. Other Panelists in this Program
Will Discuss Some of These Techniques and How They\'ve Been Used in
Depth Later in the Program, but at this Point, I\'d Like to Ask Mike If
We Have Any Phone Calls or Faxes That We Need to Respond To?

Pool: Yes, We Do. In Fact We Are Going to Go Ahead And Take a Phone
Call. Gary from Phoenix, Arizona. Hi, Gary, You\'re Online.

Caller: Hi, Mike.

Pool: off Question for Our Panel Members?

Caller: Yes, Probably for Roger. I Was Wondering in the Whole Process of
Looking at Cost Recovery Whether as a Bureau We Have Really Considered
the Kinds Of Costs That We Take on for Project Proponents That Really
Don\'t Lend Themselves to Direct Dollar Reimbursement. For Example, If
We\'re in the Bonding Regs Requiring Small Miners To, You Know, Use
Licensed Professional Engineers To Calculate Reclamation, Wouldn\'t it
Be Reasonable That We Would at the Same Time Look At Things like
Requiring Certified Engineers to Ensure Compliance for Oil and Gas
Development, Large Rights‑of‑way, Things like That So That We Can Free
up a Lot of Our Time That\'s Spent on Compliance and Also on Things Like
Perfecting Incomplete Applications? I Think the Bureau Has Done a Lot of
What I Call Consulting With Proponents That Really Cuts Into Our
Capability to Carry out Bureau Motion Activities.

Pool: Roger? You Want to Respond to That?

Hildebeidel: Thanks, Gary. It\'s an Important Question. I\'m Not Sure
It\'s One That I Can Answer Alone. I\'m Going to Ask My Co‑panelist
Nicholas to Help Me Because I Think it Has Some Legal Implications as
Well as Funding Applications in That When We Establish the Regulations
and The ‑‑ Go Through the Cost Recovery Analysis to Determine The Types
of Charges That We Should Be Recovering, I Think This Is Part of the
Process of Determining the Appropriate Fees And the Reasonableness and
Also Fits Within What Is Our Authority to Recover and What Parts of
Program Costs Are, in Fact, Recoverable. Nicholas, I Think Maybe You Can
Help on This, Too, Can\'t You?

Targ: Sure. It\'s an Interesting Point. You Can Absolutely Outsource for
Conducting Analysis, and That\'s, I Think, What We\'re Talking About.
For Example, We Can Either Through a Procurement Contract Get Somebody
out on the Ground To Take a Look to See What\'s Going on Who Has the
Expertise Necessary, but What You Really Can\'t Do Is You Can\'t
Delegate Away BLM\'s Decision‑making Authority to Some Private Entity.
I\'m Not Sure If That Helps. Is There Another ‑‑.

Pool: Gary, Did We Answer Your Question?

Caller: What I\'m Looking At, The Way I Read the Regs Right Now, for
Example, in Oil and Gas, It\'s Really the Company\'s Responsibility to
Ensure Compliance, Yet We Do a Great Deal of the Compliance Inspection
and I Can Remember Back in the Mid‑\'80s We Developed Qa/qc Programs for
Large Project out in Western Wyoming. I Know Jerry Crockford in New
Mexico Has Taken Some of That Information and Has Been Doing Good Things
with Industry in Terms of Really Putting the Burden Where it Belongs on
Them To Ensure Compliance and Allowing the Bureau to Operate a Much More
Downscaled Oversight Program Rather than Being out There on the Ground
Providing Specific Direction On, You Know This, Culvert Isn\'t in Right
or That Ditch Was Done Improperly, Et Cetera. I Think We\'re ‑‑ I Have
Always Referred to it as Sort of Indirect Cost Recovery. It\'s Not
Dollars, per Se, but it Really Does Take a Lot of Our Capability Away
from Things That We Could Be Doing.

Hildebeidel: Well, We Certainly Do Have the Capability To Require the
Applicant to Do Certain Things as a Condition of Having the Permit or
Lease and Do Them at Their Own Expense. I Think What We\'re Talking
about Perhaps Is Somewhat of a Transition as We Move Through This
Process to Looking at Other Things That We\'re Now Doing and Whether or
Not They Are Within The Realm of Cost Recovery and Ought to Be
Considered. I Think a Little Later Hord Tipton Is Going to Talk about
Some of the New Draft Regulations That Are Being Prepared, and this
Might Be an Area That\'s in That Kind of Arena. That\'s about the Best I
Can Do For You, Gary, on the Question. I Hope it Helped.

Pool: Okay. Thank You, Gary.

Caller: Thanks.

Pool: Appreciate You Calling In. Okay. Before I Introduce Our next
Panel, I Would like to Take a Minute to Briefly Summarize Some Important
Points Raised by Roger Hildebeidel and Nicholas Targ. It\'s Important to
Remember That BLM Has the Authority and a Mandate to Use Cost
Reimbursement Systems. There Is Also Renewed Interest In Using Cost
Reimbursement, Dedicated Fees and Funding Partnerships to Enhance BLM\'s
Capabilities to Manage the Public Lands and Meet Customer Needs. Some Is
Driven by the Pressure That Will Be Placed on BLM Appropriated Funding
over the Next Five Years as the President And Congress Move Forward to a
Balanced Budget by the Year 2002. If BLM Is to Accomplish its Management
Goals, Conserve its Resources and Provide Services As Desired by Our
Customers in a More Timely Manner, the Agency Should Take Full Advantage
of Using Existing Authorities to Generate Dollars in Addition to
Appropriated Funds. Congress and the Administration Are Supportive of
Our Efforts to Expand the Use of These re Courses for BLM Activities and
Services. ‑‑ Resources for BLM Activities And Services. Next We Would
like to Shift Our Focus to the Topic of Customer Service. As You Know,
BLM and Many of Our Public Land Users Have Mutual Goals. We Care about
the Health of the Land and the Condition of the Resources. In Many
Cases, We Both Want to Optimize the Use of the Resources and to
Eliminate as Much Red Tape as Possible. It Is Also in Everyone\'s Best
Interest to Make Good of Available Resources as We Engage In Various
Activities on Public Lands. One of the Best Ways We Can Improve the Way
We Do Business Is to Increase the Communication Between Us and Our Land
Users. So to Shed Light on the Role of Our Public Land Customers with
Respect to Cost Reimbursement Activities, We Have with Us Today Leigh
von Der Esch, with The Association of Film Commissioners International
and The Utah Film Commission. Good Morning, Leigh and Welcome.

von Der Esch: It\'s Nice to Be Here, Mike. Thank You. We Have a Lot of
BLM Land in My State and We Enjoy Working with Your Directors and
Managers.

Pool: Great. And from the Rocky Mountain Oil And Gas Association, Claire
Mosely Is Here to Give Her Views On Working with BLM this Arena. Thanks,
Claire.

Mosely: Thank You, Mike. I Appreciate Being out of Denver Where It\'s
Snowing.

Pool: a Little Warmer down Here in Phoenix, Right? Claire Will Be
Starting Things Off by Giving an Industry Perspective on BLM\'s Customer
Service and Cost Reimbursement Issues. Claire?

Mosely: Great. Thanks, Mike. It\'s a Pleasure to Be Here Today, and for
Those of You Who Don\'t Know Rmoga, We Are a Trade Association
Headquartered in Denver Which Represents Both Independent and Major
Companies. But Before I Talk about Rights‑of‑way, I Would like to Point
out That Public Lands Are Key Elements to Maintaining a Viable Oil and
Gas Industry. Consequently, Maintaining a Good Working Relationship with
BLM Will Benefit Us All. Industry Is Also Willing to Pay Its Fair Share
to Operate on Federal Lands. But in Order to Facilitate Transportation
Activities, It\'s Important for the Right‑of‑way Industry and BLM to
Form Partnerships Which Foster Good Management and Environmentally Sound
Operations. Of Primary Concern to the Oil And Gas Industry Is Whether
the Department Is Trying to Balance BLM\'s Budget Outside the
Appropriations Process by Increasing Fees for Public Land Users. BLM
Should First Strive to Work Within its Budget Constraints Just as
Businesses Do and While Industry Doesn\'t Object to Recovering All Costs
to Which They Are Entitled, We Don\'t Support the Government Collecting
Undedicated Fees That Will Go to the General Fund Simply to Offset the
Deficit. Now, as I Mentioned, the Oil and Gas Industry Is Prepared to
Pay Its Own Way, Which It\'s Done Historically Through Payments of
Application and Other Assessed Fees. We Encourage BLM to Make Sure All
New Cost Recovery Efforts Are Reasonable and Not Simply Used as
Alternative Funding for Other Programs or to Balance the Budget. Most
Importantly, Commodity Users must Not Be Singled out by BLM\'s Cost
Recovery Efforts. All Public Land Users must Share The Burden of
Shrinking Federal Budgets. The Fees ‑‑ If Fees Are to Be Increased, What
Customer Service Improvements Are Planned by BLM? Fee Increases Should
Be Accompanied by Service Improvements. We Recommend BLM Hold Industry
Workshops to Identify Problem Areas Which Need Rectifying, and Industry
Is More than Willing to Work with BLM to Devise a Mutually Acceptable
Approach to Cost Recovery. Now, How Will BLM Overcome Prolonged or
Inconsistent Right‑of‑way Processing Times And Requirements? It\'s Been
Our Experience That BLM Often Allows the Application Process to Stop If
the Assigned Officer Is Absent Due to Illness, Vacation or Other
Reasons. Some Area Offices Have Required Additional Arc Surveys Before
Approving Activities down Predisturbed Corridors, While Others Have
Delayed Drilling Permits on Split‑estate Lands Until an Operator Shows
Proof of The Damage Settlement or Restoration Agreement with the Surface
Owner. Provisions must Be Made to Accommodate the Business Needs Of the
Customer Such as Reassigning Personnel to Help Carry out the Duties of
the Absent or Overburdened Staff. For Example, the Rawlins District Went
a Step Further by Assigning Specific People to Specific Companies.
Things like this Help Generate Mutual Respect. Conditions of Approval
must Be Reasonable, Flexible and Take Into Account the Existing on the
Ground Situation. Is it Really Reasonable to Require Additional Surveys
for Improvements or Facilities in Areas That Have Already Been Disturbed
or Surveyed? We Also Recommend BLM Develop a Bureauwide Policy for
Dealing With Split‑estate Land Issues. How Will BLM Avoid Right‑of‑way
Back Logs? Alternatives Should Be Available To Reduce Those Back Logs
While Outsourcing or Partnering Our Options, They Are Only Temporary
Solutions, and as I Mentioned Earlier, We Would Not Expect BLM To
Recover More Funds than the Normal Workload Costs Through Processing and
Application Fees. Our Expectations, Industry Expects Service from BLM to
Be Commensurate with Fees Paid for Processing. Industry Needs to Know
the Rules. The Restrictions. The Time Frames, et Cetera. So They Can
Make Economic Determinations Regarding the Feasibility of a Project on
Public Lands Before They Start. In Order to Streamline or Reduce
Permitting Delays, Industry Recommends BLM Allow Application Processing
and Approvals to Be Conducted Using Internet Access. In Closing, Rmoga
Urges BLM to Focus on Incentives That Encourage Companies to Operate On
Public Lands. Keep in Mind That the Prospect Of Higher Costs Will Drive
Many Companies from Public Lands, Especially Small Companies Who Are
Typically Responsible for Making the Initial Petroleum Discoveries. That
about Finishes up My Sermon, Mike, and I Would Be Glad to Answer Any
Questions People Have after Leigh Is Finished.

Pool: Okay. Thank You, Claire. Before We Go to Leigh, I Would Like to
Mention That We Will Be Going to the Phones Again in About Five Minutes.
So If You Have a Question or Comment or There Is Something That You
Would like to Share With Everyone Concerning Customer Service, Please
Give Us A Call or Send Us a Fax. At this Time Leigh Well Share Some
Information for Our Viewing Audience about What Customers Expect from
BLM When Working on Public Lands, Especially Motion Picture Work. Leigh?

von Der Esch: Thank You, Mike. It\'s Nice to Be Here with You. As a
Representative of Those Who Work with the Visual Industry, The First
Thing I Would like to Do Is Give Your Viewers an Example of Responsible
and Cooperative Filming on Public Lands.

Announcer: the World\'s Favorite Airline Brings 24 Million People\...
Together.

von Der Esch: this British Airways Commercial Courtesy of Saatchi and
Saatchi Shot on Five Different Public Locations in Utah. The Commercial
Required the Cooperation of over 25 Public Agencies, the Use of 6,000
School Students and Three Months Of Preparation for Five Days of
Shooting. It Gave Us Revenue and Exposure For the State of Utah.
Particularly in the Rural Areas Of the State. It Could Not Have Been
Done Without the Efficient and Cooperative Efforts of Agencies Such as
the BLM. The Motion Picture and Visual Industries Represent a Vital
Piece of Economic Development Programs Throughout the World. The Export
of American Motion Picture Productions Constitutes The Second Largest
Export Offsetting the Trade Deficit. More and More Pictures, Television
Projects and Commercials Are Being Shot on Location. BLM Managers Are
Often Besieged With Production Permit Requests Needed as Soon as
Possible, If Not Immediately. We Know BLM Offices Are Strained By
Multiple Demands May Not Be Able to Respond as Quickly as Film Makers
Would like. Consequently, BLM Offices Are Accused by These Customers as
Being Unresponsive or Uncooperative. Questions Often Arise from Both The
Permitting Agency and the Customer about the Appropriateness of Permit
Response Time, Permit Fees and Location Fees. Partnerships for
Production must Be Created with the BLM to Assist Productions or ‑‑ Are
a Great Source for Economic Development Often in Our Most Rural Areas
Will Be Lost Outside The Country. And an Opportunity for Revenue
Generation Will Also Be Lost to The BLM. Why Assist the Production
Community? As I Mentioned Previously, the Motion Picture Industry
Creates Jobs. It\'s a Clean Industry Which Pays Its Own Way. And It\'s
Also a Profitable Resource Sustaining Activity for Public Lands.
Additionally, Films, Television And Even Commercial Productions Create
an Awareness of Public Resources and Can Greatly Influence Tourism in an
Area. Utah Is Still the Tourist Beneficiary of John Ford‑john Wayne
Movies Shot in and Around Monument Valley and Moab. Many States Have
Tracked the Tourist Visits Resulting from The Release of Films and
Television Programs. Montana Created an Entire Tourist Campaign Around
the Release of \"A River Runs Through It\". Contrary to Popular Beliefs,
Filming Requests Are Not Always About Bad Planning. Often I Hear
Comments from Permitting Agencies like \"Why Do They Wait until the Last
Minute?\" In Actuality, Today\'s Shooting Schedules for Television Are
Shorter than Ever and Planning Is Even More Critical. On Big Features,
Planning Will Be Extensive and Yet Who Can Predict the Freak Snowstorm
That We So Often Can Enjoy on Public Lands in the West in June When They
Are in the Middle of Making A Planning Schedule in March? The Most
Important Thing to Remember Is That Time Is Money To the Visual
Industry. While Their Requests Should Be Reasonable, Their Time
Constraints May Appear Unreasonable. Flexibility as Managers When
Meeting Location Needs Is Important. If You Feel the Location the Film
Maker Has Chosen Is Not Available, Whether Due to Environmental Concerns
or the Needs of Other Users, Feel Free To Offer Other Alternatives. The
Most Helpful Resource Manager Is the One Who Doesn\'t Answer and Stop at
\"No,\" but Who Says Instead, \"How about this?\" This Often Will Save
You Both Time in the Permitting Process. Also, Remember That Most
Commercials Are Far More Immediate in Their Time Frame Than Other
Projects and Can Often Go in Concept to Air Date In 30 Days. Let the
Film Maker Know up Front What Your Requirements Are. The Best Permitting
Requirements Must Meet the Following Test: Clarity, Consistency and
Speed. Were You Clear about What You Needed for the Permit? Were You
Consistent in All Permits? Have You Told the Filmmaker How Quickly it
Can Be Processed? Do You Know Your Local Film Commissioner? The Creation
of Film Commissions Throughout the World Shows the Importance of the
Visual Industry as a Part of Government Economic Development. All 50
States Have Film Commissions as Well as Regions, Counties and Cities
Across the U.s. You Should Know Your State And Local Film Commissioners
and Establish a Good Working Relationship with Them. One of the First
Questions You Can Ask the Filmmaker Is: \"Are You Working with the Film
Commission on the Project?\" If They Are Not, or Have Not Even Notified
the Film Commission They Are Filming, You Should Call the Film
Commission And Make Certain They\'re Aware Of Their Project. No
Filmmaker, at Least Any I Have Met in 12 Years, Intentionally Sets out
to Make a Badly Planned or Executed Movie. And More and More We Are
Seeing Film Makers Who Are Who Approach Projects with an Environmental
Sensitivity and a Genuine Desire To Leave the Location Better Than They
Found It. Keep an Open Dialogue with Your Local Film Commissioner. While
You Need Not Include Us in The Planning of All Location Shooting
Requests, We Are More Than Happy to Attend Any Meeting That You May Have
Regarding Filming on Your Resource Area. We Talk to Each Other as Film
Commissioners about Location Problems and Solutions. We Do Reality
Checks with Each Other about Production Requests That Are Reasonable as
Well as Unreasonable. Producers That Are Easy to Work With and Those Who
Are Not. BLM Managers Can and Also Should Share Their Own Ideas for
Solving Location Problems. If You Are Concerned about the Use of the
Location, You Can Require the Production Company To Hire and Pay for a
BLM Staff Person to Be on Site to Monitor Activity. Cost Recovery
Partnerships and Revenue Enhancements\... Filming On Public Lands Can Be
a Good Partnership with the BLM. Costs Can Easily Be Recovered For Use
of Personnel, Equipment And Locations. Film Credits Are Frequently
Negotiated and Donations Are Welcomed to Be Given by the Production
Companies. For Example, Donations from the British Airways Included
Computers Badly Needed for Schools on the Reservation and Band Uniform
Monies in Various School Districts. As Both Roger and Nicholas Mentioned
Earlier, There Are Legal and Reasonable Opportunities for You to Enhance
Your Revenues for Your Area. If You Frame the Request as a Donation,
That Will Enable to You Preserve and Perhaps Improve The Resource the
Film Make Certificate Using, You\'ll Have Better Response. Oftentimes
They Will Give More Than Is Asked When it Is Taken Out of the Context of
a Fee. As Claire Mentioned, We Are Willing to Pay Our Way. Now Is the
Time to Communicate More than Ever with the Visual Industry and Work
Together to Enhance Our Public Resources. Finally, I Have Three Last
Slides Courtesy of 20 Think Century Fox. They Show the Activities of
Movie Making on BLM Lands. We Are Proud of the Opportunity To Again
Showcase Our State and Appreciated the Assistance of The BLM in Making
\"Independence Day\". Mike, It\'s a Pleasure to Be Here With You.

Pool: Great, Leigh. Thank You. Particularly, That Was a Nice Video
Segment on British Air Yeas. I Was Quite Impressed with That. We Are
Going to Go Ahead and Take Some Faxes We Just Received. This Is from Ray
in Washington, D.c. and I\'ll Direct this to You, Leigh. How Should BLM
Determine the Value of a BLM Credit in a Film As an Offset to the
Payment of Cost Recovery Fees by a Film Maker?

von Der Esch: I Think the Value to a Credit Is Different In Different
Districts N Some Areas Where There May Not Have Been as Much Exposure
and They May Be Interested Increasing the Tourism Visits, Certainly the
Value of a Credit Would Be Higher. In Those Areas That Have Had a Lot of
Exposures and They Are Finding it Very Difficult to Meet Their Resource
Needs in Terms of the Amount of the Money Being Budgeted for Them, Then
Certainly I Think the Donation Or Location Fees Are More Important. But
I\'m the Kind of Gal That Says Go for Both in Most Areas Of the Country.
And I Think the Production Companies Are Willing to Work That out.

Pool: Okay. They Can Be Flexible Both Ways.

von Der Esch: I Think You Should Be Flexible. There Are Certain Movies
That When They Reach the Top of the Box Office Have a Viewership of 170
Million People Worldwide. That\'s the Kind of Billboard That No One of
Us in the Public Agency World Could Buy.

Pool: Exactly. Okay. Thank You. I Have a Question for You, Claire, That
Came in from Larry In Albuquerque, New Mexico. Does Rmoga See Any
Difference in Response Time by BLM Between Actions That Charges a Fee,
for Example, Right‑of‑way, and Those That Do Not, Example, Apds?

Mosely: It\'s Interesting You Should Ask That. I Checked with Some of My
Members Before Coming Here Today, and I Found That in Areas That Are Not
Controversial, in Most Cases, Apds Are Approved Much More Quickly than
Rights‑of‑way. Typically ‑‑ Well, the Requirements Are That Apds Are
Approved Within 30 Days. There Are No Such Requirements For
Rights‑of‑way, and I Think That\'s, You Know, the Reason for That
Discrepancy. One of the Things That We Could Probably Do Is Try to Have
Companies File Their Rights‑of‑way Requests along With the Apds So They
Could Have One On‑site Inspection for Each Project Instead of Having to
Wait for a Later Time.

Pool: Okay. Very Good. Thank You. I Would like to Thank Both Ray And
Larry for Sending in Their Faxed Questions, and I Would Like to Thank
You, Leigh, for Coming in Today.

von Der Esch: It\'s Been a Pleasure. Pool School Claire, Thank You.

Mosely: Thank You.

Pool: You Provided Us with Excellent Information. Thank You. At this
Point We Will Take a 10‑minute Break as We Promised Earlier. When We
Return, We\'ll Visit with Some BLM Field Managers and Hear Firsthand How
They Make Cost Reimbursement Work out on the Ground. And Hord Tipton,
BLM\'s Assistant Director for Minerals, Realty And Resource Protection
Will Be Joining Us to Discuss Reimbursement Options for BLM Managers and
Ways to Be More Proactive in Working with Our Customers. We\'ll See You
in a Few Minutes!

Pool: I Would like to Welcome Everyone Back to Our Seminar on Cost
Reimbursement Systems in BLM. With Us for the Second Half of The Show Is
Hord Tipton BLM\'s Assistant Director for Minerals, Realty and Resource
Protection.

Glad to Be Here. Mat Millenbach, I Saw the Weather Forecast in
Washington This Morning. So I May Have to Be out Here a Few Extra Days.

Pool: I Think That Includes All of Us. To Share Some on the Ground
Experiences, Moab District Manager Kate Kitchell Is Here. Welcome, Kate.

Kitchell: It\'s Good to Be Here. I Would like to Say a Special Good
Morning to My Friends with The Utah Leadership in Vernal This Morning.

Pool: and Darrell Barnes Is Also Joining Our Panel. Darrell, Welcome.
Barn.

Barnes: Thanks, Mike. It\'s Nice to Be Here and These Are Important
Issues and We Need To Be Discussing Them.

Pool: the Objective for the Second Unit of Our Seminar Today Is as
Follows: We Want BLM Decision Makers to Be Able to Identify Practical
Applications Of Cost Reimbursement Methods And Options to Increase
Revenues To Benefit Public Land Management. Based on the Information
Presented in the First Half of Our Program, We Would like Hord To Share
His Observations on BLM\'s Cost Reimbursement Authorities. Hord?

Tipton: Thanks, Mike. Earlier We Had the Pleasure of Hearing Roger
Hildebeidel and Nicholas Targ Give Us Some Good Information on the
Budgetary Impact of Cost Collections and Some Legal Tools to Facilitate
Cost Reimbursements. We Now Have Some Good Information on the Data and
Analysis to Further Enhance Our Cost Reimbursements. We Also Heard from
Leigh and Claire, Two Good Customers and We Got Some Valuable Customer
Input. From That I Think We Heard That The Industries Are Willing to Pay
Fair Prices for Services Delivered but They Do Expect Good, Timely
Service. We Want to Be Reminded this Morning That BLM Managers Have
Broad Authority to Utilize Cost Reimbursement, Dedicated Fees And Cost
Sharing to Perform BLM Functions. This Is Not Business as Usual. Doing
Things the Same Way as We Did Last Year Simply Doesn\'t Work Anymore,
and We\'re Looking For New and Better Ways and New Opportunities to
Recover Some of Our Costs. The Funds Already Available to BLM from Fees,
Service Charges And Other Receipts Dedicated Fees and Costs, Are Very,
Very Significant. Roger Told Us this Morning That There Are over \$90
Million Collected in That Some Sense Go Back to the Programs in the
Field. As an Example, in the Right‑of‑way Program, for Example, We Have
\$2.2 Million Collected Last Year from the Processing of the
Rights‑of‑way Applications and the Associated Project Monitoring. Those
Collections Are a Very Significant Source of the Operating Funds for
Your Field Offices. We Also Heard Other Comments on Our Back Logs in the
Areas like This. We Have to Be Reminded That We Have over 3,000
Applications Backlogged Nationwide. We Have Opportunities to Collect
Costs to Process Those. Our Customers Expect Those to Be Processed. And
It\'s up to Us to Face up to The Challenge of Finding out Just Exactly
How to Be More Efficient, More Timely and to Work That Backlog down.
3,000 Is Simply Too Big a Number To Write off as Working Inventory. Also
We Heard That the Entire Surface Management Program Is Funded by Mining
Claim Holding And Processing Fees. This Is \$32.6 Million, Funding
Something like 507 Ftes. This Is a Prime Example of How Dedicated Fees
Can Be Used to Help BLM. The Fining Community Does, However, Expect
Services for This. ‑‑ the Mining Community Does However Expect Services
for This. It\'s a Good Position to Be in That We Have Supporters of Our
Budget to Assure this Money Gets Returned Us To. If We Develop Good
Customers and We Have in the Mining Community, Then They\'re in There
Supporting Our Budgets and We Get Assured This Money Comes Back. We Also
Need Support for Maintaining Holding Fees Because That Fee Does Expire
in 1998. The BLM\'s Also Committed to the Concept of Challenge
Cost‑sharing and We Use this to Improve Resources on Public Lands. We
Look for a Minimum of a One To One Match of Appropriated Funds ‑‑ Funds
or In‑kind Goods Or Services Raised by the Private Sector. Last Year We
Asked in Our Budget For \$4 Million for Reclamation Of Abandoned Mine
Lands. Through Reconciliation We Wound Up with \$1 Million. We\'re Very
Pleased to Report and Report Back to the Committee This Year That We Got
a 7 to 1 Return in Leveraged Dollars on The Million Dollars That They
Provided. That Went over Very Well with The Committees. Along the Way We
Developed Some Very Good Partners with the States of Colorado and
Montana, The Fish & Wildlife Service, Forest Service and Many, Many
Others. Good Examples. Also We Have Some Outstanding Examples of the
Success of Cost Sharing and in Bring Back the Natives Program Which
Involved Some Partnerships with BLM, the Forest Service, the National
Fish and Wildlife Service and Trout Unlimited Designing Projects That
Were Intend to Do Restore Native Fish Species. We Have Partners in
Flight Which Deal with Issues on Grazing and Tropical Migratory Birds.
Many of You Have Opportunities At a Local Level to Develop Such
Partnerships. We Note We Have over 65 Partnerships with Recreation and
Fish & Wildlife Areas That Are Involved in the Cost Sharing Program.
Throughout BLM We Are Emphasizing the Collection of Costs and Other
Methods to Increase and Retain Funds for BLM Use. This Management
Philosophy Applies to All Programs. As I Said Earlier, Just Applying
That to the Programs in Areas That We Applied Last Year, We Need to Take
That the next Step. Helping Us to Look for That next Step Has Been Some
Work from Our Revenue Enhancement Team. This Team Has Developed a Plan
To Assist Us in Implementing Cost Recovery Techniques and Guidelines for
Consistent National Application. The Team Will Also Look into Potential
Legislative Changes That Would Allow BLM to Retain All or Part of the
Funds Received from the Sale or Rent Of Lands and Resources. A Summary
of Their Report Is Part of Your Training Package. Let\'s Talk a Minute
about Some Draft Rules. We\'re Looking for Ways to Update The Cost and
the Schedules That We\'ve Been Operating on from About a Decade Ago, and
We\'re Also Looking for Areas in There That May Have Some New Areas That
We Haven\'t Touched for Cost Recovery. One of These Teams Is the Energy
And Minerals Cost Recovery Team And They Have Drafted a Rule Which We
Are Currently Working On to Recover Processing Costs For Mineral‑related
Documents. The First Phase of this Is Going To Focus on Our Big‑ticket
Items, and by \"Big‑ticket Items,\" I\'m Talking about Mineral
Patenting, an Area Where We\'re Only Recovering a Fraction Of the Costs
it Really Costs Us To Issue the Patents. Other Areas Such as in the Oil
& Gas Amendments and Changes and Notices, the Increases May Appear
Small, but If We Apply Them Across the Board, Small Increases, Small
Dollars Add up To Big Dollars. First Thing You Know It\'s Real Money. We
Have Another Real Making on Going in the Right‑of‑ways ‑‑ Rule Making
Going on in the Right‑of‑ways Program for the Realty Program. You Will
Probably Remember Last Year We Did a New Rule on the Communication Sites
and Have Some New Schedules That Is a Way Of Efficiently Streamlining
That Process. Many Seems to Be Working Quite Well. BLM Managers Should
Make the Best Possible Use of Cost Reimbursements That Are Available for
BLM under Existing Rule and Fee Structures. What Happens Today\'s Course
Is All about. What Can We Do with the Rules as They Are Today? So the
Message Is, Don\'t Wait. Rule Making Takes Quite a Long Time Now, and We
Need to Operate With the Cards That We\'re Dealt. A Good Example on That
Might Be To Select the Proper Cost Reimbursement Categorizations For
Right‑of‑way Applications to Collect Your Processing Costs And Do That
up Front. Make Sure You Get the Categorization Category Correct On the
First Go‑round, Way In, Early On. As You Know, It\'s Impossible to Get
One of These Things Changed Once You Decide What Category it Falls In.
Managers must Be Aware of the Correct Accounts Where These Funds must Be
Deposited. For Example, When Trespass Settlement or Bond Forfeitures
Occur, Depending upon the Program Specific Requirements, Certain Costs
Are Deposited in Accounts Available for BLM Use And the Remainder Goes
to the Treasury. If You Don\'t Put the Money in The Right Code, You
Can\'t Be Assured You\'re Going to Get the Appropriate Money Returned to
You. So Correct Coding of the Fund Account Is Necessary to Maximize Our
Return of These Type of Collections. Last I Will Mention Fair and
Reasonable Cost Approach. We\'re Not in this to Make a Profit. We Have
to Be Sure That the Money We Collect Goes Back to The Projects, and Then
We Don\'t Want to Confuse this with Full Cost Recovery, Either. As
Nicholas Explained, Different Laws Have Different Requirements, and in
Some Cases, We Needful Cost Recovery, Other Cases We Need to Apply Full
and Reasonable Standards on this. We Have Guidance, and I Think We Now
Know How to Do That. Now, Mike, We Would like to Hear For Some Real Live
Industrious Film Managers Who Used Cost Reimbursements Techniques in
Leveraging of BLM Dollars and Have Provided Some Very Good Timely
Service, Customer Service.

Pool: Thank You, Hord. Next Darrell Barnes Will Explain How a Cost Share
Project Can Be Managed and He Will Give Us a Firsthand Account of His
Experiences with Cost Reimbursement in the Rights‑of‑way Program.
Darrell?

Barnes: Thank You, Mike. The First Thing I Would like to Talk about Is
Right‑of‑way Cost Recovery. For Flpma, this Involves Five Right‑of‑way
Categories. The First Four Are Minor Categories. Prize Range Between 125
and \$925 For Processing These. These Dollar Figures Include a Reduction
for Reasonable Cost Factors. The Fifth Category Is a Major Category, and
this Is Any Project That Is More than \$925 In Processing Costs.
Managers Need to Pay Close Attention to These That We\'re Putting Them
in the Proper Category. It Isn\'t Very Difficult to Get Above That \$925
Level for the Fourth Category. If We\'re into a Major Project, What
We\'re Dealing with Is Reasonable Costs, and That\'s Negotiated Between
the Manager And the Applicant. Reasonable Costs May Be Actual Costs, but
it Has to Be Determined by Agreement. The next Area I Want to Talk About
a Little Bit Is the Mineral Leasing Act. In this Particular Area We Have
Six Right‑of‑way Categories, Again Based on the Level of Difficulty. The
First Five Are Minor, Cost Range 125 to 1,000. Again, We Need to Pay
Attention That on That Fifth Category That We Categorize Properly. The
Sixth Is Major. In this Area We Collect Not less Than \$5,000, and We
Will Go After Actual Costs for Mineral Leasing Act. This Isn\'t New to a
Lot of You. Many of You Are Aware of These Categories and Are Wondering
Why We\'re Talking about this Again. The Ig Indicated We Are Losing Over
\$600,000 a Year by Having These Mine Categories in an Improper Low
Category. So We Need to Pay Attention to This. This Is Big Bucks. The
next Thing I Would like to Talk about a Little Bit Is a Major Project
Example in Rights Of Ways. This Is the Express Pipeline Project. The
Cost Recovery in this Kind Of a Project Is Significant. It Crossed Two
States, Involved Several Hundred Thousand Dollars Of BLM Salaries over a
Two‑year Period. It\'s a Major Budget Workload Item That We Need to
Monitor and Pay Close Attention To. This Line Went in on Schedule Last
Summer. The next Area I\'d like to Discuss Briefly Is Program
Management. I Think in Program Management on These Major Project, We
Need to Stress the Propriety to Our Employees of Charging for the Work
That They\'re Doing. I Think There\'s a Reluctance at Times on the Part
of Employees, They\'ll Think We Should Be Charging Applicants for this
Kind of Work, but We Need to Stress That it Is Proper and Get The Money
That Is Due Us for This Work. Again, Assure the Proper Categorization,
and We Need to Keep in Mind That If We\'re Not Collecting the Proper
Level of Funding, It\'s Hurting Our Other Programs Because We Still Have
To End up Doing the Work and it Comes out of Another Pot of Money. We
Need to Track Costs. Management Is Responsible. As Was Point out Earlier
by Industry Representatives, They Expect to Periodically Have an
Accounting, and We Need to Be in A Position to Provide That to Them.
It\'s Good Business. Also, If We Get into a Court Situation, as Nicholas
Pointed Out Earlier, We Need to Have These Good Tracking Accounts in
Order to Justify Use of Those Fees. Another Item of Importance Is to
Maintain Our Accounts. We Need to Maintain These Major Project Accounts
in a Positive Balance. The Way We Do this Is to Bill The Applicant
Periodically. We Estimate What the Expenses Are Going to Be in the
Future And Make Sure That the Account Has Sufficient Monies for the Work
That We\'re Projecting. Just to Kind of Summarize this Particular Area,
You Know, It\'s Gratifying to Me as a Manager Having Been Involved with
the Writing of These Regulations That Are in Effect Now in the Mid‑\'80s
and See They Do Work Quite Well. Nicholas Pointed out That We\'re
Legally Sound. I Think the Fee Schedules Have Worked Well. We Need to Do
a Better Job Again Of Making Sure That We\'re Collecting the Proper
Amount. The next Area I Would like to Talk about Is Cost‑sharing. You
Know, What Is Cost‑sharing? I Think Traditionally We Think Of the Things
like Contributed Funds, Challenge Cost‑share Grants, Gifts, Interagency
Agreement. We\'ve Done a Lot of That Work. That\'s Nothing New to the
Field. But I Think Today, You Know, Being a Partner, a Good Partner, Is
Defining a New Reality for The BLM. What Better Method Can We Put Forth
a Public Service Message Than Through Partnerships. I Think the ‑‑ My
Definition Is Any Entity That Has the Capability and Desire to Help BLM
in a Cost‑share Partner Venture, You Know, We Can in Many Cases Cases
Reach Agreements with Them and Do Good Work for Them as Well as for Us.
There Are an Awful Lot of Groups Out There Now, Local Government
Entities, Individuals, Ranchers. We\'ve Got Elk Foundation Interests and
Such That Are More Than Happy to Be Working with Us To Meet Mutual Goals
and I Think We Need to Be More Aggressive in This Area. It\'s Just Good
Business. It\'s Good Public Service but It\'s Also Very Cost‑efficient.
You Know, Why Is this Important? The Budget Goes Further, it
Demonstrates Good Public Service, We Can Defuse Conflict By Building
Trust, We Meet Multiple Goals, We Improve Communications with These
Different Interests, and Bottom Line, it Benefits the Public Land
Resources. What Can Partnering Bring? It Brings New Ideas. I Think
Sometimes We Think We Understand What the Public Has In Mind, and When
You Sit down And Actually Talk to Them, It\'s Something Different, and I
Think It\'s a Good Reality Check, Getting the New Ideas from Them. These
Partners Have Special Skills. They Can Provide Labor, Money, Equipment,
Space, and They Can Help Us Achieve Goals in a Shorter Time Frame by
Combining Our Limited Resources. I Would like to Mention Real Briefly
One Project That I\'m Particularly Proud Of. This Is the Hogan/luce
Campground Project in the Cody Resource Area in Wyoming. This Involved a
Number of Different Partners in Developing This Facility. Wyoming Game &
Fish, Park County, Trout Unlimited, Back Country Horse Men, the BLM and
Also the Private Land Owner. This Involved Development of an Access Site
Campground, Trailhead Facilities into the Back Country as Well as
Fishing Opportunity with Trout on a Walk‑in Fish. The Total Project
Costs Were \$70,000. The Partners Contributed \$37,000 Of That. This Is
Just One Example, and If We Had More Time We Could Go Into a Lot of
Other Examples Similar Where We\'re Getting a Lot of Benefits and
Support from These Partners. That\'s about All I Wanted to Say On This,
Mike. Again, this Is an Important Area, and We Need to Really Focus on
Doing a Better Job Here.

Pool: Thank You, Darrell. To Give Us Some Experience of Another Field
Manager, Kate Kitchell Has Some Examples of Cost Reimbursement and
Actions Involving Recreation and Minerals. But Before We Turn it over to
Kate, I Would like to Mention to Our Viewers That Right after Kate\'s
Presentation, We\'ll Be Starting Our Final Question and Answer Period.
So If You Have a Question or Comment for Our Panel, Get Ready To Start
Dialing. Kate?

Kitchell: I Will Be Sharing With You this Morning Two Case Studies, Two
Very Contrasted Case Studies. The First Is about a Recreation Management
Partnership in Southeastern Utah at a Place Called the Sand Flats Just
Outside of Moab. The Second Contrasting Case Is a Mineral Material
Example from The Las Vegas Valley. Let\'s Start First with the Moab
Example. Moab, Utah, Has Recently Become World Renowned for its Outdoor
Recreation. It\'s Frequently Called the Mountain Biking Mecca of the
West. The Best Known Mountain Biking Attraction Is the Slick Rock Bike
Trail above Moab in the Area Known as the Sand Flats Recreation Area
Shown Here. In less than Five Years, Use Has Grown from a Few Thousand
to Over 150,000 User Days in 1995. In the Spring of 1993, We Experienced
a Meltdown in Moab In the 7,000 Acre Recreation Area. Thousands of High
School and College Spring Breakers Descended on the Area, Setting Up
Large Camps Willy‑nilly Across the Countryside, Pulling Over Juniper
Trees and Throwing Them in Bonn Fires and Causing Problems with Human
Waste and Sanitation. We Had a Problem on Public Lands But BLM Didn\'t
Have the Funding Or the Capability to Address the Problem by Itself.
Crisis Became a Catalyst, and BLM, Citizens, Users and the County Came
Together to Address Problems. The Problems of Resource Degradation,
Human Waste, User Needs and Demands and the Protection of a Key Economic
Asset in the Moab Area in Terms Of its Tourist Economy. We All Realized
That We Needed Facilities on the Ground Presence, Education to Visitors
And the Community about Responsible Land Use, Law Enforce Ment and
Search and Rescue. As a Result, Two Things Happened: First, BLM
Completed The Sand Flats Recreation Area Management Plan to Guide the
Overall Management of the Sand Flats Area. Secondly, and Probably More
Importantly, BLM Entered into a Cooperative Agreement with Grand County
under the Signed Cooperative Agreement, Grand County Collects the
Dollars and The Fees at Sand Flats and Administers Those Fees out of The
County. Fees Are Deposited and Tracked In the Sand Flats Recreation Area
Maintenance and Protection Fund. Funds Go Back on the Ground Under Grand
County Supervision To Implement the Sand Flats Plan. Also Are under the
Agreement, The County Has Established a Seven‑member Citizen Stewardship
Committee to Maintain a Linkage Between the Local Community, the Users
and BLM. The Stewardship Committee Has a Number of Roles. They Develop
an Annual Operating Plan Jointly Between BLM and the Grand County
Council. In That Operating Plan, They Outline Specific Actions to
Implement the Broad Management Plan. They Specify How the Fees Collected
by the County Will Be Spent to Administer Sand Flats. Thirdly, the
Stewardship Committee Establishes the Fee Schedule for the Fees
Collected At Sand Flats. They Are There to Ensure That The Fees We
Collect at Sand Flats Are Reasonable, and We\'ve Talked a Little Bit
Earlier About Fair and Reasonable Fees. For Day Use at the Sand Flats, a
Three‑day Pass Costs an Individual \$3 per Vehicle. For Camping the Fee
Is \$4 per Vehicle. Pretty Reasonable Rate, I\'d Say. Another Credit You
Will Element Of the Sand Flats Partnership Has Been over \$200,000 in
Grants From the Americorp Program. The Americorp Program Gave Us a Shot
in the Arm to Get the Program up and Running by Having People on Site
Collecting the Revenue Stream So We Could Get Over the Hum to That Get
Recreation Management in Place. Other Other Thing That the Americorp
Program Does, it Employs Local Community Members To Work on Our Public
Lands. In 1995 and \'96 Alone, over \$250,000 in Fees Have Been
Collected at the Sand Flats. People Are Glad to Pay the Fee When They
See Those Dollars Coming Back Going into Actions And Accomplishments on
the Ground. In 1995 and \'96, 18 Americorp Members Were Employed. They
Communicated a Land Stewardship Message to over 90,000 Day Users and
Campers in The Area So That When Those Folks Leave the Sand Flats, They
Have the Minimum Impact Land Use Message, Hopefully a Little Bit
Instilled in Their Behavior. A Number of Facilities Have Been Developed.
Installation of a Wide Variety Of Signage and Fencing, over 140
Campsites Have Been Developed And Maintained, We\'ve Expanded And Paved
the Slick Rock Bike Parking Lot, and Last but Not Least, We Have
Installed over 10 Toilets to Deal with the Human Waste Problem. In
Addition, over 40,000 Dollars Have Gone to a Local County Share You Have
to Address Search And Rescue and Law Enforcement Concerns. Probably the
Best Outcomes from This Partnership Have Been the Maintenance of a
Significant Public Land Resource and an Economic Asset to the Community.
We Now Have a Self‑sustaining Recreation Area in Place Where The Fees
Collected Are Adequate To Maintain and Operate the Facilities for
Recreational Use. We Have Happy Visitors. They\'re Glad to Have the
Service They Have and to See the Land Properly Managed. Also a Great
Deal of Community Pride and Ownership in the Public Lands Has Come out
of Our Partnership Through the Stewardship Committee and with The
County. Last but Not Least, Good Will And Trust Between the BLM and
Grand County Has Grown out of This Partnership. Next, I Would like to
Move to a Very Different Case Study. It\'s in the Las Vegas District
Where Urban Development Has Run Smack into Desert Tortoise Habitat. In
August of 1989, the Desert Tortoise Was Listed as Threatened, and BLM
Had to Close Down the Community Pits for Mineral Materials in Desert
Tortoise Habitat. But There Was Still a Need for Mineral Materials from
the Community Pits. To Reconcile the Need for Mineral Materials and the
Mandate to Protect the Desert Tortoise, the BLM Devise Add Unique
Solution in Consultation With the Fish and Wildlife Service. The Net
Result Was That Four Community Pits Were Reopened With an Additional Fee
Attached To Sand and Gravel Sales. The Fee Is a 25 Cent per Cubic Yard
Fee Collected from All the Operators and Placed in a Specific Desert
Tortoise Mitigation Account under Disturbed Land Reclamation. In Fy‑96
Alone, over \$200,000 of Fees Were Collected under this Mitigation
Account and Deposited In That Account. Since 1989, over a Million
Dollars Have Been Collected for The Protection of the Desert Tortoise.
Outcomes from These Funds Have Accomplished a Number of Things Toward
Protecting the Desert Tortoise. Close to 300 Work‑months Have Been
Funded Toward the Protection of the Tortoise. We Have Been Able to
Install Desert ‑‑ Tortoise Proof Fencing And Cattle Guards in the
Community Pits. BLM as Collected, Maintained and Translocated Desert
Tortoises Affected by the Community Bits. And the Funding Is Also
Enabled BLM and the Fish & Wildlife Service to Support Ongoing Research
on Desert Tortoise Requirements and Improvement of Habitat. Thanks
Terrific Example of Applying Existing Authority in a Creative Manner to
Solve a Very Compelling Problem. Again, We Are Shown the Creativity Is
One of Our Greatest Assets in BLM. Thanks Again for this Opportunity. I
Hope These Two Case Studies Have Given You a Little Food for Thought to
Think about How You Can Apply Cost Reimbursement on Your Public Lands.
Thanks.

Pool: Thank You, Kate. This Time We\'re Going to Take Some Phone Calls
and Faxes That Came in and We\'re Going to Start Off with a Phone Call
from Mike Ford in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Mike, You\'re on Online. Do
You Have a Question for Our Panelist Members?

Caller: Yes, but First, Senior Mr. Pool, I Noticed You Didn\'t Leave
with Glasses When You Left New Mexico. Arizona must Be Hard on You.
There Has Been a Lot Said Today About Business Analogies and Doing
Things to Kind of Make Us More like the Private Sector Here and One of
the Concerns That Most of the Field Managers Have, Hord, Has to Do with
Local Flexibility. We Are Being Encouraged to Go Out, Generate
Partnerships, Use Cost Recovery, but I Will Tell You What the Fear Is
out Here Locally, That the More Outside Dollars That We Bring In, the
More That We Will See Reductions In the Appropriated Funds. We Need Some
Incentives and Protections. I Guess My Question Would Be, What Are You
Doing to Make Sure If We Go out There and We Can Bring in 50% from the
Outside That We Don\'t Take an Appropriate Whack in Our Appropriated
Funds and Essentially Result in No Gain?

Tipton: Mike, There\'s Risk, I Suppose, in about Everything That We Do,
and this Is Not the First Time That That\'s Come Up. But, on the Other
Hand, We\'ve Given Several Examples of Programs with Dedicated Fees and
What Not That Have Not Resulted In Those Type of Reductions. Quite
Frankly, It\'s Refreshing To Go into Congress and To, First of All,
Point out to Them That BLM Is the Number Four Collector of Revenue for
the Treasury, Much of Which Is Returned to the States, and Also That We
Have Extensive Cost Recovery Programs. Now ‑‑ and They Note and Continue
to Put Authority in Our Budgets for Us to Do this. I Think a Lot of this
Has to Do With the Fact That BLM, Unlike a Lot of Other Agencies, at
Least Has Been Able to Maintain a Flat Budget and Has Hopes for Doing
That. Now, We\'re Not Looking for Increases in Our Budget, but Whether
We Maintain That Budget Flat with a Collection of Appropriated Dollars
or Whether It Comes Through Collected Dollars Is a Good Position to Be
In When We Can Say Not Necessarily That We\'re Operating On Cost Centers
but That Our Programs Are Basically Free to The Customer and to the
Service. So I Don\'t Think I Would Use That as an Intimidating Factor
All Together to Not Take Full Advantage of the Opportunities. If We
Don\'t Do it We\'re Apt to Get Our Budgets Reduced Anyway.

Pool: Did That Respond to Your Question, Mike?

Caller: Yes, That\'s Takes Care of It. Hord, I Appreciate It. I Know
Some of Us Have Beat on That for a Long Time. I Wanted to Leave That
with You. We\'re Going to Continue to Do The Needful Thing out Here but
We Need Your Support to Support The Innovation and Flexibility That\'s
Going on Here on the Ground and I\'m Sure We\'re Going To Get It.

Tipton: Thanks for the Question.

Pool: Thanks, Mike. We Have a Fax in from Burley, Idaho and I Will
Direct this to You, Darrell. It\'s Two Parts: We Have Used Partnerships
in the past and Continue to Do So. How Do We Identify Partnerships That
Don\'t End up Costing Us More Time for Our Limited Staffs? Let\'s Take
the First Part of That First.

Barnes: I Think That\'s a Real Good Question. You Know, What Are We
Going to Be Using Our Staffs to Do? I Think it Is Going to Require Some
Extra Time. I Think That this Whole Thing Builds upon Itself. What
Better Use of Our Staffs Is It than to Serve the Publics That We\'re out
There to Serve? And That Is Going to Involve Some Time. And I Think
Initially There\'s More Upfront Time as We\'re Learning How to Pursue
this to The Best Efficiency as We Go on And Have More Experience with
It, it Seems That the Processes Are a Lot Faster and less Time
Consuming.

Pool: Okay. Kate, I Am Going to Let You Tackle the Second Part of this
Question.

Kitchell: Oh, Boy, Here We Go.

Pool: How Can We Focus Our Partners on the You High Priority Work When
They May Have Their Own Agenda?

Kitchell: I Guess for Me the Best Way to Try to Respond to That Is Just
Thinking of Specific Examples in Our Particular Area Around Moab, and
Probably, as in Any Case, Much Of What We Do in Multiple Use Is Finding
Middle Ground or Taking Conflicting Situations, Finding The Commonality
and Finding a Solution Through Finding That Commonality. So Probably the
Way I Would Approach a Situation like That Would Be to Try to Understand
What the Objectives of a Particular Entity Would Be and See Where the
Linkage Between Their Objectives or Their Priorities Might Be Between ‑‑
Between Their Priorities and BLM\'s Priorities. Try to Find That Middle
Ground And See If There Is Actually Some Connection Between What They
Had \'Like to See Happen and Where BLM Is Trying to Go in Terms of its
Priorities. Focus on That Common Ground.

Pool: Okay. Thank You, Kate. And Thank You for That Comment From Burley.
Let\'s Take Another Fax Question Here and this Is Coming from Greg in
Worland, Wyoming. I\'ll Direct this over to You, Hord. Do We Anticipate
Hiring More Staff Utilizing Cost Reimbursement Fees to Ensure Our
Customers Receive Better Service For Their Increased Costs?

Tipton: I Sure Am Glad We Got That Question. Over the past Few Years
There\'s Been a Real Reluctance ‑‑ Actually There Has Been a Freeze On
Hiring That Has Stymied Our Attempts to Be as Customer Responsive as We
Would like to Be. As in My Mention of the Right‑of‑way Situation
Earlier, That, I Think, Is a Good Example Whereas We Have to Look Very
Closely at Places Where Our Backlogs Are and Where We Need People and
Quit Worrying about Ftes, Look at the Money, Look at What the Income
Streams Look Like and Budget Around That. We Have to Be Customer Service
Oriented and We Cannot Do That If We Don\'t Have People to Do That.
We\'re at a Stage Now That Our Customers Externally Recognize That We
Don\'t Have People and Things Are Slowing Down, and I Think this Is to
Some Degree Part of the Reason That They\'re Quite Willing to Sit down
and Talk to Us and Commit Funds for Delivery, and You Are Right, We
Cannot Deliver Without Having a Capable and Trained Staff to Do That.

Pool: Okay. Thank You. And Thanks for Sending in That Question, Greg.
Let Me ‑‑ I Have Another Fax Message in Here. This Is from Julia in Palm
Springs, California. I\'ll Direct this over to You, Darrell. Is it
Appropriate to Charge Annual Cost Recovery Fees for Monitoring a
Built‑out Right‑of‑way Project Such as a Wind Energy Facility?

Barnes: That\'s a Good Question. You Know, We Can Charge ‑‑ Properly
Charge for Monitoring On Those Projects, And, You Know, I Think We
Should Be Doing That. That\'s Part of the Responsibilities That We Have.

Pool: Okay. Great. Thank You. And Thank You, Julia, for Sending That
Question In. Before We Wind Things down Today, I Would like to Mention
If We Were Not Able to Get to Your Call or Fax on the Air, We Will
Follow up with Everyone via Groupwise after the Show and Get You an
Answer to Your Questions. Now Hord Will Share Some Final Thoughts on
Cost Reimbursement From a Headquarters Perspective. Hord?

Tipton: Thanks, Mike. I Would like to Close Today, First of All, by
Giving a Hearty Thanks to All the Field Office Managers and Other
Personnel out There Who Have Participated in Today\'s Broadcast. Also a
Hearty Thanks to Kate and To Darrell for Sharing Some Success Stories in
Their Respective Districts. All of You Need to Know That We In
Washington Are Not Naive Enough to Think That All of this Is Going to
Work Without Your Full Support. It Doesn\'t Matter How Many Regs, How
Many Directives, How Many Policies We Send out to the Field, Unless
You\'re Convinced This Is a Good Idea and Can See The Benefits of It, We
Know That It Simply Won\'t Work. So We Appreciate Your Interest And Are
Counting Ow. I Also Would like to Thank Claire Mosely and Leigh von Der
Esch for Participating in the Broadcast. You Made Sure We Are Aware
Every The Customer\'s Needs and Your Willingness to Make Our Programs
And Services Better. I Would Note That the Attitudes Have Not Always
Been like That. It Hasn\'t Been All That Long Ago When Government Has
Been Looked At as a Provider of Free Services, but with Downsizing, Less
People, less Ability to Do That, I Think There Is an Expectation Now
That We Function More like a Business, and They\'ve Brought That to Our
Attention and Have Demonstrated Some Excellent Cooperative Attitudes.
Mike, If I Could Give Just a Quick Summary of Some of the High Points, I
Think, That Have Come to the Broadcast Today and Do That Before We
Leave. Let Me Mention the Solicitor\'s M Opinion. This Has Come up a
Couple Times. Mat Talked Bit Earlier. We Want to Use this as a Good
Reference Document. It Has a Lot of Effort Put into It, a Lot of Time, a
Lot of Debate, and it Addresses Our Broad Authority under Flpma to
Recover Costs on Our Mineral Related Actions the It\'s a Good Summary
Dock. It\'s Good Background. Although it Specifically Addresses Mineral
Actions, it Applies to Other Program Areas Equally Well. Also We Have a
Good Document and Product from Our Revenue Enhancement Team. They\'ve
Produce Add Report That, As I Mention, off Summary Of. So the Two Things
to Leave from This Are the M Opinion and Our Recently Issued Enhancement
Report. Also We Have Heard and Want to Emphasize That it Is Federal and
BLM Policy to Recover Appropriate Costs for Services Rendered. We Need
to Enhance Our Ability To Acquire Funds and Services From Sources Other
than Direct Appropriated Dollars from Congress. Keep in Mind There Is
Full Support, Authority and Actual Legal Requirements to Recover Our
Costs. We Can Begin with the Congressional Requirements. We Have
Presidential Executive Orders. We Have Omb Circular A‑25 Has Been
Mentioned. We Have Flpma. We Have the Mineral Leasing Act. We Have BLM
Regulations. We Have Cost Recovery Manuals And Handbooks. We\'re Even a
Product of Reinventing Government. What Else Do We Need? There Is Total
Full Support. I Think Mike\'s Appearance and Moderation Today of the
Panel Gives Us Another Signal of Support from the Assistant Secretary\'s
Office, Which Have We Are Greatly Appreciative. Our Field Office
Personnel Need To Be Totally Proactive with Respect to Reimbursement Our
Cost Activities. Managers Should Recognize and Fully Utilize Cost
Reimbursement, Opportunities Within the Legal Authorities and The BLM
and Departmental Policies. Look for Opportunities for Sharing Through
Partnership and Challenge Cost‑sharing Opportunities. Field Office
Managers Need to Expand the Reimbursement Activities in Our Local Field
Offices and We Want to Start With Small Steps Such as Proper
Categorizing of Our Minor Categorization Classes, and Properly Coding
Manager Time to Major Projects. Manager\'s Time as an Management
Function Cannot Be Coded, but When You Participate, Make Sure Your Time
Gets Coded as Well. Field Officer Managers must Take That Extra Step to
Ensure Our Customers Pay Appropriate Cost Reimbursement Fees, Receive
Quality Service, While Still Protecting the Public Interest. And
Managers Need to Be Sensitive to the Quality of That Service Provided.
And the Timeliness of That Service. Enhanced Customer Service Is Our
Goal. I Also Heard a Lot of Talk on Training and the Washington Office
and the National Training Center Do Have Cost Reimbursement Training
That Can Be Presented at the Local Field Office Level upon Request, and
This Training Can Be Tailored to Meet Your Specific Needs of That Field
Office Manager. Also the National Training Center Has Short Courses That
Are Taught with Industry. Claire Mentioned the Need for Workshops with
Industry in the Oil & Gas Business. We Have Started Those. There Are
Directives to the State Offices to Better Educate Ourselves and the
Industry about Our Application Needs. So the Key Word Here Is Training.
We Continually Need to Train. Now, in Conclusion, I Would like To
Challenge Each State Director To Submit an Example of an Innovative
Project Involving Cost Reimbursement or a Partnership During the Current
Year. These Examples Will Be Distributed Amongst Other BLM Offices for
Sharing of Ideas and The Winners, by the Way, Will Be Notified at the
next Year\'s Budget Allocation. I Heard a Question from Gary in Arizona
this Morning, Which I Thought Was Very Good, and That Might Make a Very
Good Innovative Project, Gary. So We Can Talk about That Later. Again,
We Are Faced with Changing Times and Reduced Budgets and Anyone Who
Thinks We Are Going to Get More Money in The Future Is Living in a
Fantasy World. So We Have to Be on Our Toes, Looking Ahead, and Be
Proactive And Figure out and Recognize We Are in a New Way of Doing
Business. It\'s Not Business as Usual. So Thanks to the National
Training Center for Their Leadership Role in Producing This Broadcast,
And, Again, Mike, Thanks to You and I Will Leave You with the Motto
Adopted By Our Cost Recovery Teams and It Is: \"Show Me the Money!\"

Pool: Thank You, Hord. Darrell, We Have a Few More Minutes, Do You Have
Any Closing Comments or Thoughts for Our Audience Today? Any Message
Would You like to Leave Them with?

Barnes: Yes, Thanks. I Want to Thank Everybody for Allowing Me to Be
Here and Participate in this. Again, Thanks Real Important Topic Area. I
Think We\'ve Got the Tools Necessary to Do a Good Job in The Cost
Reimbursement Area, and Managers, All of Us, Need to Keep Paying Close
Attention to That So That We Are Getting the Monies That We Have Coming
to Us. Additionally, in the Area of These Partnerships, Again, We\'ve
Got the Legal Authority, and I Think There\'s No Better Way than Through
Partnerships to Demonstrate Good Public Service. It\'s a Different Way
of Doing Business from the past. We Have to Spend More Time Directly
Dealing with These Partners and Keeping an Eye out For All the
Opportunities in This Area.

Pool: Okay. Thank You. Kate, Any Closing Comments?

Kitchell: First, I Would Probably Say Ditto to What Darrell Said. But
Two Additional Things I Would like to Share. One Is Sort of a Follow‑up
Hord\'s Response to Mike Ford\'s Question, and That Is, Let\'s Remember
That with Our Partnerships and Effective Cost Reimbursement We Have
Happy Customers, and If Our Public Is Happy, I Think That Ends up Being
a Very Effective Support For BLM in the Broader Picture. So That Is
Certainly One of Our Objectives in Partnerships and Cost Reimbursement.
I Think the Second Point I Would Like to Share with Folks Is We As
Managers Need to Challenge Our Employees and Reward Them For Challenging
Some of Our Old Ways of Doing Business. I Think That\'s What ‑‑ Been One
Of the Key Messages Here Today, That Is, We Have the Authority. Let\'s
Be Creative in Using It, And That Way We\'ll Hopefully Have Happier
Customers and Healthier Landscape. So Let\'s Reward Our Employees For
Doing an Excellent Job, Too.

Pool: Thank You, Kate. Darrell, Hord, Kate, Thank You For Being with Us
this Morning. We Really Appreciate Your Comments and Looking Forward to
Seeing You on the next Round. That about Wraps it up for Our Seminar on
Cost Reimbursement Systems. If You Need Additional Information on
Reimbursement Requirements, Contact: Ron Montagna at the Washington
Office or Nicholas Targ, in the Solicitor\'s Office. I Would like to
Remind All Coordinators to Have Viewers Sign the Attendance Roster and
Fax it into Ntc after Today\'s Show. We Would Also like Everyone to
Complete the Program Evaluation And Fax it Back to Ntc as Soon As
Possible Following this Broadcast. Both the Roster and the Evaluation
Are in the Packet Sent to Your Offices Before Today\'s Show. I Would
Also like to Mention Some Upcoming Ntc Distance Learning Events. On May
1st, Ntc Will Transmit a National Interagency Workshop on Implementing
Western Riparian Restoration. On May 7th and 8th, an Overview Of the
Office of Workers Compensation Program Will Be Presented for Managers,
Supervisors and All Employees. And a Three‑day Course Which Will Provide
an Introduction to Interpretation, Will Be Broadcast on May 21st to the
23rd. For Information on These Telecast, Contact the Training Center. Or
Visit the Ntc Home Page. To Help Your Office Participate In Future Ntc
Broadcast, See the BLM Satellite Downlink Guide or Visit the Ntc Home
Page on the World Wide Web. Ntc\'s Internet Address Is Www.ntc.BLM.gov.
Transcripts of this Telecast and Other Ntc Broadcasts Are Available on
the Home Page. I Would like to Thank Everyone Who Participated in
Today\'s Show, Especially Everyone from The Field Who Called or Faxed Us
During Our Interactive Segments. We Hope We Have Motivated You to Pursue
Cost Reimbursement Activities in Your Area and to Try Some New Things as
Opportunities Come along. Using BLM\'s Cost Recovery Authority Is Just
One More Example of How We Can All Work Together to Improve the Way We
Do Business. Thank You and Have a Good Day.