\<CREW talk\>

Q: A few too many days to be in Selma.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum.

\<CREW talk\>

Q: So SNIC comes in, King is called, the locals want to get this thing
moving.

**Charles Robertson:** Right. Right.

Q: And so it starts to heat up. There are more protests and more
marches. What do you remember?

**Charles Robertson:** Well, you know, the thing is is that there was
not any more, it is just that King dr- drew the camera. So the media
followed him. So, but at the time, we were looking at the fact that we
were doing all of the work. We were the field people now. Th- there was
some guys that came through- Bevel \[ph?\] would come through, uh.. but
in terms of immediacy, like field workers, we were the field hands and
uh.. they- there were- there were people who came in and- and- and- and
did do the- we worked with uh.. James Bevel \[ph?\], uh.. I worked with
a- with a lot of the uh.. SCLC fieldworkers, uh.. because they had the
money, we didn't. \<laughs\> I mean SNIC- we might have got \$16.00 a
month uh.., you know, periodically, you know. But we lived off of the
land. But we were the- we were the people who got along extremely well,
in the community, where the community felt that we were doing a job that
had value and as you- we talked earlier about the Jackson's- like they
house- I mean the Jackson's, they were kind of like the father of SNIC
in Lowndes County. Uh.. and they had a history of supporting uh.. black
movement, progressive movement- uh.. they- they have a private uh- uh..
burial ground, on their property, uh.. which is that they had that kind
of independence throughout their father's development in Lowndes County.
But back to uh.. to Selma and uh.. King. So when King came uh.. he
brought the cameras. And so uh.. the- the idea was that we had done all
of the work. You know. \<laughs\> It's like before Bloody- Bloody
Sunday, when we started uh.. the first Bloody- the first march, uh..
King wasn't here. Okay. And that was when everybody was beaten. And as a
result, the camera and King and- and everybody came. But the idea was
that uh.. we felt uh..- many- many of us felt slighted, by the media and
we felt slighted uh.. because what we were doing uh.. was secondary to
what was happening uh.. with- with King and some of the others, and we
felt that it was just as valuable, because we were the ones that was
taking the risk. We were the ones that were being shot at. We were the
ones that were being shot at and- and brutalized. I mean, hey, kids- uh-
uhm.. Bob Fletcher and people would drive him- I mean we were just- we
were brutalized. And I don't- I can't imagine that happen- having
happened to anybody else, at the level that it happened to SNIC workers.
And uh..- and- and like uhm.., you know, there were a couple of people
that hid in the- in the- in the parade at the courthouse and this kind
of thing, but nobody, nobody but SNIC got the dirt at night- got the
dirt when they were, quote, off-duty, kind of. Uh.. we got it, you know,
the- the whole thing about the changes in Mississippi, Philadelphia,
that whole thing. That was- that was SNIC. So- so that was the feeling,
that- that we had been slighted, and I still feel that we're slighted by
history, and I hope that uh.. that- that what you're doing will kind of
address some of those slights that uh.. that we have- have- have
experienced, because I think that we- we played a great role, as young
people in the Civil Right Movement of the sixties.

Q: Yes. And I think the rural people, the ordinary people that we've
talked to affirm that.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum.

Q: No question about it. There's only one SCL person we're going to be
interviewing for this. And it's not to slight them necessarily.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum.

Q: But this is clearly your story.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum. Okay.

Q: It's your story. It's a local story. From my perspective, it's a
story about the heroism of local folk.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum. Okay. Thank you. Uh-hum.

Q: Who housed you, who fed you. Right?

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum. Uh-hum.

Q: Okay. And who cared for you.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum. Okay.

Q: I was telling them yesterday, one lady said, "Who really loved us"

**Charles Robertson:** Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's
good.

Q: How did you experience this though?

**Charles Robertson:** Well, you know- well, as a qu- quasi-local
person, uh.. one, my mother uh.. who worked uh.. as a domestic, as an
aide, uh.. she lost her job, but at the same time, she felt that there
was something positive in what we were doing so she would house people,
uh.. like every- most of the people at the time knew- know her- knew her
and would come back through and see her. I mean, she's deceased for a
couple of years ago but uh..- but- but because of the fact that I was
different because I was from the area, and most of the Civil Right
workers were from other geographic areas- uh.. Georgia, uh- uhm..
Jersey- we had folks from uh.. Connecticut. We had people, black kids
who had come from uh.. all parts of the country. But because I was
local, uh.. I had a little bit of a- of a- of a foothold in that I was
going to be fed. And when my mother didn't feed me, I would be fed by
other relatives and so would the other guys that I knew. And uh.. most
of the- most of the SNIC workers, they had developed- because that's one
thing about us, at the time- you could take a SNIC worker in any city,
at the time- uh.. when it was black and white on the other side of the
track- and within uh.. a couple of hours, we would have the political
structure all mapped out in terms of who were the black powerbrokers. We
would be able to get to the nerve of any city within a very brief period
of time. And it was the nature of- of- of us and our youth and how we
would approach a- a new community. And we would go to the bars, we would
go to the barbershops, we'd go to the beauty shops, and we would go to
the church halls, and uh.. we would be able to know where the pulse is
in any city within a very brief period of time. And, at the same time-
uh.. because uh.. most of us- I mean, there were a few and- and- and
there were a few uh.. young people who were out for very personal uh..
means. They wanted to exploit women. They wanted- they- they had
personal goals that were not Civil Right goals, but for the most part,
all of the young people, uh.. SNIC people, uh.. were people who were
very dedicated to- to a very sound philosophy of one-man, one-vote- and
uh.., for the most part. Okay?

\<CREW talk\>

Q: Based on what little information I have, I'd love to just take you on
now to the marching and Bloody Sunday and all that.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum.

Q: Anything between, that you want to add as a perspective on the
experience of being a SNIC worker? If anything comes to you, you just
let it rip. Okay?

**Charles Robertson:** Okay.

Q: So what do you recall about that? And I'm really interested in the
impressions. Paint me a picture. I've got lots of people telling us what
happened -- "And then we marched" and this, that and the other. On that
day, you didn't know that this was going to happen.

**Charles Robertson:** Right. Right.

Q: But there must have been some anticipation in the air.

**Charles Robertson:** Oh yeah. Well we- we knew...

\<CREW talk\>

Q: What did it feel like to be preparing for that march? That was one of
the biggest marches to have happened to that date. Right?

**Charles Robertson:** Right. Well it, as you said, it was one but...

Q: And there was a special reason for the march, and I want you to
mention that.

**Charles Robertson:** Okay. Well- well let- let me say that uh.. part
of this whole dynamic period is that it was a high alert period. You
know, like everybody- like my Uncle Max had come through, uh.. some of
us had talked with my Uncle Max, some of us had national and global
identification. So this was a time in which we uh.. had transcended
this- this local mentality- that many of us had gone national, gone uh..
international, gone globia- global- like for an example, Bob uh.. and-
and people who- we had people go to Africa, and we had people who really
had over-identified with- with the Africanness, to the point that we
were more African than Africans. But the point is is that this was a
period that we were like on a- on a high level of intensity. And so we
expected- we knew the police- they- they were coming through so we were-
and we were daily alert uh.. as to what- what they would do, what they
could do, what they were capable of. And so uh.. so the Bloody Sunday
was not really a surprise, to us. Uh.. but to take you back to what
happens at- at the church. I mean, it was totally chaotic, you know.
There were- there were people in the projects. And one of the things I
have to say is that uh.. Brown Chapel became the church that was
centered and associated with the Civil Rights Movement in Selma. But one
of our early leaders was Reverend Anderson, uh- uh.. early- sensitive,
very directed, a super spokesman, and uh..- and it was a tabernacle
church. So we were meeting there but that was on Broad Street and it's a
major throughway. So police and- and civilians could- white civilians
could easily come through, take tag numbers, see people take pictures.
Whereas when we- when- and then we went to uh.. First Baptist, which was
on a- on a less traveled street, it was on Jeff Davis- and uh.. then in
Brown Chapel, which was right in the center of the projects, so it was
totally a black pocket that it was in the center of. So anyone walking
through would be very conspicious \[ph?\], and so it gave a little bit
of privacy for people coming to go to meetings, and this kind of thing.
Uh.. so uh.. so it was a high intensity clans- uh.., as a matter of
fact, during this time, uh.. clans would come through uh.. church sites,
and they would just drive through, and- and some of us would laugh and
some people, it would- it would really provoke to them that old
historical fear. But to most of us, we thought that it was funny- you
know, the lights on and so forth, you know, which is there now. But, I
mean, at that point, for us, the young people, it had- it did not evoke
the fear that it did on some of the older people. Okay. So- so what
happened uh.. is that uh.. there was- there was this- this- this long
walk, long, peaceful- I mean, it was quiet. I mean, it was quiet. People
were walking and people were- you know, except for uh.. those people who
were really uh.. guarding and proctoring- like the leadership was
standing on the outside of the line or walking down, uh.., you know,
kind of telling people- they said, "Everything is gonna be okay. We're
gonna go." And so we walked to uh.. to the bridge. And uh.. they let us
cross- they let us cross the bridge. And when some of us got across the
bridge, the pol- the- the troopers on horses, they would try to ride the
people into the river. You know, like because we had crossed, and they
would start. And so many people would go under the bridge and uh.. and
they would come down to- come down close to the bank where- trying-
hoping that they would get folks to- to go into the river, the Alabama
River. And uh.. there were- there were people who were- who were really
severely hurt. And so coming back, it was- it was very chaotic- uh..
ambulance- uh.. it was just very chaotic. And in the church, it was
chaotic. And uh.., you know, people- people were- were taken uh.. on
pallets and things, and it was just totally chaotic. People were
looking- parents were looking for children and this kind of thing. And
uh.. the other thing that is important is that while uh.. there were
many adults involved, in Selma movement, kids were the ones who were the
first leaders, the advance leaders, and the parents came to make sure
that they were okay. \<laughs\> So uh.., you know, so that- that's
something that history have to see and have to feature the fact that it-
the sixties, aside from young college students, it was high school
students who really played a very dynamic role in- in really the- the
movement, the whole attitude. And so the kids were educating the
parents- when they would sing freedom songs, when they would uh..- when-
when they would talk in terms of- and using their own spirituals that
the parents had been using as a ritual, we are now using these
spirituals as a motion for forward progressive directions. Okay. And so
uh.. so we have to acknowledge the young people, who are now uh- uh..
adults. There's a young man, Charles Malden, in Birmingham, that you may
have interviewed.

Q: I sure did.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh.. Charles Bonner, a lawyer out in uh..
California, from Selma- uh.. Cleophis \[ph?\] Hobbs. Uh.. there were a
lot of young- there was Chapman in Mobile. There were a lot of young
people who really, really took what was verbalized and- and internalized
that to mean let's move- we're- I'm not gonna take this anymore- for
freedom or- you know \<laughs\> and- and it was- it was- it was great.
So back to uh.. to Bloody Sunday. Uh.. John Lewis was there. Bob Manse
and- and most of the uh.. the- the civil righters that uh.. that- that-
that we know. Uh.. Bevels, I think he was there. Uh.. there was some of
the SCLC uh.. people there. I believe uh.. James Bevel was one. I'm not
sure. But uh.. for the most part, it was- it was a student- it was a
SNIC and young people out front. We had the Boynton's \[ph?\], the
Dallas County Voters League- those people were there and those- those
were really the strong heroes that you've already talked to, because
uh.. they were people who really uh.. moved beyond their time, you know,
because the time was to accept things as they are. But here were people
who moved beyond their time. And I- I want to make this- this- this
parenthetic statement for you. Uh.. Reverend Reece, F. D. Reece, is
Frederick Douglas Reece. Okay. So somebody knew when they named him that
he had to do something. Okay. \<laughs\> But uh..

Q: Or was supposed to.

**Charles Robertson:** Yeah. Yeah. And he- he was quite a- quite an
honorable uh.. person, or by- quite a rational person, and uh..- and-
and he was easy to work with- because we- we really did not take a lot
of new ideas, to these people. Okay. I mean, they were ready. We just
brought to them the vehicle to act. And uh.. Reece and Doyle and these
people, I mean, they were brave people. I mean, to go and register- to
go and qualify for the City Council, at that time, was a brave move. And
so these people were ready and they were just waiting on somebody to
tell them. Bernard Lafayette uh..- you know, waiting on people to come,
to- to incite them, to facilitate them to do the things that they w- the
wanted to do. Okay.

Q: Excellent.

**Charles Robertson:** Thank you.

Q: Very good. So where do you want to go from here?

**Charles Robertson:** \<laughs\>

Q: Because I don't know particularly about your involvement. This is the
Selma to Montgomery Trail.

**Charles Robertson:** Okay.

Q: So then King issues the call.

**Charles Robertson:** Okay.

Q: And lo and behold, preparations are made for the march and the legal
things going on.

**Charles Robertson:** Okay. Well I have to- let- let me tell you one
thing.

Q: Go brother.

**Charles Robertson:** Is that uh..- okay now, we- we were in meetings
with high profile lawyers from- from- from- from Washington, from all
over the country. Uh.. and Jail Chesternutt \[ph?\]- I don't know if
anybody's ever told you, but Jail Chesternutt was a drunkard. Jail
Chesternutt- uh- uh.. Jail Chesternutt was a uh.. was a Selma lawyer-
very bright- Jail Chesternutt and Bruce Boynton, Mrs. Boynton's son,
were two li- two young protégés, who came back, to work in civil rights,
uh.. as- as- as attorney. But Jail Chesternutt experiences were- were-
was so negative. Like, for an example, he couldn't win a case. I mean,
you know, and so he didn't win a case because the- he couldn't win,
there were white judges. And so uh.. Jail Chesternutt was really talked
about- you know, "So you need to get you a lawyer." You know, they-
they- the- the defendant would lose the case and the judge would say,
"You need a lawyer- and he ain't no good." You know. And Jail- so Jail
Chesternutt took that, and he was beaten man, he was beaten. He was
revived, his life was restored by Rose and Hank Sanders, when they came
through. But Jail Chesternutt, we were at- at some meetings, and uh..
and Jail Chesternutt would uh.. would- would wake up and make a comment,
and uh.. Kussler would say, "Chesternutt"- Kussler, Bill Kussler would
say, "Chesternutt, that- that's good. Can you repeat that? Did I
understand you to say that..." He'd say, "Folks, I think Ches got to
be..." Here this drunk guy, in his drunk stupor was very profound. I
mean, he- he was a remarkable guy, as I think we have found out now that
uh.. that- that his law practice is- is going so well and he's just
accepted all over the country as one of the- the Sam Irving's of the
south, because he is some kind of speaker. But Jail Chesternutt, uh.. he
would really- uh.. people would be startled with- with- with his mind,
in a drunk stupor. And I'm saying, if he's that smart drunk, brother if
he gets sober. And he's sober now.

Q: Right.

**Charles Robertson:** Okay. I had to say that about the brother.
\<laughs\>

Q: It's alright. I appreciate it. Okay. So then, what was your role as
matters progressed and the march starts to take place?

**Charles Robertson:** Well I was just part of the keeping folks in
place, uh.. cheering, participating at leadership levels- when I say
leadership levels, uh.. we're getting everybody in place. Uh.. I'm on
the side and folks- and remembering folks to don't- don't provoke them.
You know, don't do anything- you know, we're- we're just kind of talking
and proctoring people on how to be non-violent, how to act non-violent.
Okay. Because SNIC never accepted the philosophy of non-violent. SNIC
accepted non-violent as a tactic for change. And so uh.. so they were
never uh.., you know, the- most of the people, never subscribed to
non-violent as a philosophy, which is what SCLC did. Okay.

Q: Right. As I said, I grew up in the south and I wasn't here for all of
that experience. I was too far north to even get close to the happenings
down here when I was in college. But I never accepted their idea of
non-violence.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum. Uh-hum.

Q: And I don't think most black folks in the south accepted it.

**Charles Robertson:** Right. Right. Yeah.

Q: I used to tell kids I went to school with, "We have lots of guns in
our house."

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum.

Q: And I said, "You don't know half the story about the tit for tat kind
of relationship between white folks and black folks." They had no idea.
And it was probably pretty hard for people to swallow this non-violent
focus that they.

**Charles Robertson:** Yeah.

Q: Especially rural black people.

**Charles Robertson:** Totally new, and alien.

Q: Yes.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum. Yeah.

Q: I was profoundly moved by Miss Boynton talking about how she was
beaten on the bridge.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum.

Q: It must have been very difficult to see.

**Charles Robertson:** Oh yeah. It...

Q: A woman like that just...

**Charles Robertson:** And- and it is not necessarily recorded but there
were many people, I'm learning, who by virtue of the fact that they were
around the teargas, their life has been affected, their health has been
affected, uh.. and that happened a lot. But, I mean, it's- it's kind of
like, at this point, uh.., you know, you- you're going back and you're
seeing and you're really uh.. giving attention to people who are really-
I mean, their- their- their body is contorted, you know- their face is
contorted with the violence perpetrated by the state troopers and so
forth. And, you know, without being over dramatic, uh.. that is
something that really makes you value life and it- it- it makes you
value the time. And it also, I think uh.. if- if I can digress and say
that my involvement in the movement uh.. made me a different person from
the person I was on track to be. Okay. Uh.. because I'm not a person
with middle-class values. Uh.. I am not apart from the masses. And I
think that I was on track to be that way. Okay. And- and I think that
uh.. that part of that is- is to- to be working uh.. around people that
grow up on porches where, you know, you'd have to be careful because if
you step wrong, you're gonna fall through. And to go into houses and to
uhm.. to know that you are treated nicely, but that the people who are
treating you nicely and offering you food and it may be their last, you
know. And- and so, you know, you- you get a certain humanity as a result
of that. And I think that the- the movement has been a very religious
experience for me. And uh.. and for many of us, like I saying, and I- I
marvel at Bob because Bob is the custodian of the Civil Rights Movement,
of SNIC, and uh.. and I think he's handling it extremely well. But I
think that that period may- was- was such a- a- a baptism, that- that
none of us are what we would have been, had we escaped that. And I'm
proud of that. So I'm not saying it as, you know, something- because
money is not an important factor in my life, and uh.. and, you know, I
think that I was on track to be like that. Okay. Okay. Just wanted to-
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_.

Q: That must have been a profound experience for all of you. I marvel at
how many of you stayed south.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum. Uh-hum. Uh-hum.

Q: It made it interesting. And how many of you guys who were on the
frontlines and were pardoned wanted to come back.

**Charles Robertson:** Right. Now I have to put a pin in that. Now I
left- I left. I went to St. Louis. I lived in St. Louis. I taught School
in St. Louis. I went to New Jersey. I worked at Rutgers University in
New Jersey. I vacationed on Martha's Vineyard. Uh.., you know, some of
the people that I interreacted with on the island was uh.. Ed Brooks.
You know, it's just to say that uh.., you know, that it was a life of
leisure. Uh.. I- I- uh.. my wife deceased. I moved back to Indiana, I
taught school, I came back to Alabama. But I came back- it was kind of
like I stayed away but once I came back to visit, uh.. there was
something that beckoned me to come back, you know. And- and the one
thing that I think that I- that I have gotten out of the period, is an
appreciation for uh.. history, state history, African American history
uh.. as meaning the accomplishment, the kind of things that have gone on
in Alabama uh.. with blacks, uh.. from- from the inception. Like I've
identified uh.. some of the uh.. the burial sites for some people I've-
like, for an example, I know where the Jackson people are and I- and I
went through uh.. some of the archives uh- uh.. history data which
showed that uh.. the Jackson's were one of the f- the- the family, the
Jackson family, were fr- one of the free blacks in Lowndes Country,
prior to emancipation. So they have a history of freedom that they have
to- to- to really uh.. pro- that propels them into a role of leadership
because they were not. I mean, they- they- they had private property at
the time. They- you know, they- they owned. They were- their family was
never a sharecropper. And this is another thing that- a reenactment of
slavery was through the sharecropping idea. We had sharecropping at that
level in Lowndes County as late as '77 and 80's. Okay. Sharecropping,
where people would make money that you would spend at my store, you
know. And so they were constantly re-enslaving. And I can't say what is
happening now, but that has- that was something that was documented in
the late 70 and early 80's, in Lowndes County, and probably other parts
of the s- of the south, as well- that sharecroppers, they were- they-
they had money, that was really made- like I go and make money now, with
the copier, and so you can spend it at my store.

Q: Yeah. Script. \[ph?\]

**Charles Robertson:** You know. And- and that's the way they've-
they've- they've re-enslaved. So uh.. so the Jackson's- uh.. and- and
there were- there were others in the county who were freed, from that
kind of re-enslavement, and it gave them a little bit of a freedom
perspective. And uh..- and I think that that's one of the reasons that
that family has embraced. I mean, they take- I mean there's- you've met
Johnny, he's a very arrogant. \<laughter\> You know, Johnny- Johnny uh..
showed me his uh.. his f- his uh.. FBI file, when uh.. when he went- I-
I haven't been brave enough to look at mine. Okay. But I don't want to
look at mine when I saw Johnny's. Johnny's is that thick and uh.. Johnny
Jackson- I mean, he- he was just- he was just a m- marvelous person. And
uh.. and he's uh..- he's- he- he takes no crap from anybody. Uh.. he's a
very matter-of-fact person but, you know, I'm saying- I believe that
uh.. the history of that family, having been set apart from the masses
in general in that they never endured uh.. the- the sharecropping
mentality and so forth. I mean, they- they endured everything else when
they went to the store, but they did have a bit of- of human dignity
left in that they owned the land. Okay.

Q: Were you in Montgomery when the march got there?

**Charles Robertson:** I came to Montgomery, yes. St.- we camped over at
St. Jude and uh.. we went through that. And we uh.. we went to uh..- we-
well I marched through the capital and uh.. and King uh.. and others
uh.. made their profound speeches and uh.. we uh.. we were on the
sideline, most of us.

Q: Hum. How did that feel?

**Charles Robertson:** Well, you know, uhm.., actually, we felt really
left out. And we did not have to be but some- I think sometime a lot
happened because we internalized the out- from the outside. But like,
for an example, I was at meetings. I was at meetings. I was not denied
meetings so I did go to meetings that were strategy planning meetings.
But somehow, I guess we felt outside because, you know, the- the camera
thing. We were never invited to be- they never flashed the camera, uh..
flashed an interview, uh.. they- but King was the magnetism. And I
think, in retrospect, that we have to admit that for that time, to
create a one person, like King, because he was a created entity- that-
that he could really draw and he could really emphasize, where the
problems are. So, at that time, we were unappreciative, of that. We did
not participate in it because we were one-man, one-vote, as a
philosophical concept.

Q: Yes. That's an interesting perspective, the idea that he was as much
a media created image as he was his own person.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum. Uh-hum.

Q: And advanced all of our interests and causes but there was a dynamic
between him and the camera and the media. And he created himself to
serve.

**Charles Robertson:** Right. Right. Right. He- he uh..- and didn't
deserve- and I mean, this is not, it's just that- you know, and I want
you to be able to see that I'm talking about where we were, where I was,
mentally, and where I believe many young college educa- college students
were, mentally, at the time. And that's the way we saw the- the
movement, that's the way we saw uh.. the involvement of others, of CORE,
of- of all of the- the national civil rights organizations. Uh.. the
NAACP, while it had played a strong role- and I think the NAACP- NAACP
with Julian Bond- I think the NAACP is becoming a very relevant uh..
2004, 20, 30 uh.. century uh.. organization. I think that it is- it is
rallying to focus on people, and to focus on the needs of people and not
from a uh.. hierarchical perspective. And that- that's where I think
that many of these organization had- had really gotten to- that we were
just as hierarchy as uh.. as- as the president, you know. And uh.. and I
think that was one of the things that uh.. that- that Baker and- and the
SNIC leadership was that, you know, no man is more important than any
other person. And I think that uh.. that- that- that's where we are
today.

Q: So then the Voting Rights Act gets done in about a year or so. And
you're still down there, in the trenches.

**Charles Robertson:** Right. In the trenches.

Q: Yes. Trying to get people registered to vote.

**Charles Robertson:** Trying to get people...

\#### End of CD 8 \####