Q: So after the euphoria of the march and the speech, you guys had to
really kind of climb this voter registration hill.

**Charles Robertson:** Right. But I'm- I'm gonna tell you that uh..
probably the greatest pain that I have is that I recognize the- the
effort that went into uh.. the voting process. And to see, uh..
especially our younger people, because some of the statistics indicate
that, like, uh.. maybe 16% of the 18 to 24-year-old range, actually
vote. Okay. So we have a problem, with our younger people, voting. And
also we have a problem about them consistently voting. And while voting
is a problem, in my opinion, it makes us political entities if we don't
participate in the process, because if we don't- if- if a politician
look and see that this constituency does not vote, then I don't need to
address any issues that would be relevant to that constituency. So I
think that uh.. that- that that is probably the most painful thing
because I have seen, and I know of people being killed, I mean, people
dying, you know, because they are trying to get folks to vote. And so my
visual recollection of the value of- of the effort that went into it and
to see people not participate in the process, is very painful. And like
I- I have driven 70 miles to- to vote. And, I mean, you know, uh..
because I believe- I've- you know, rain, I mean there have been times
that I could not have, but I pledged myself that uh.. that I will. And I
think that that is the most painful thing, is for somebody who existed
prior to the- the Voters Right Act, to see what happens today. And I
tell you, it is very painful. And uh.. NSA- you know, and it's one of
that- I've worked in a couple of campaigns and I've went- I've went to
homes to get people to uh.. to register- "Well I'm not. I'm not going.
Why should I?" You know, I mean, this- this- this century, this period.
And uh.. and- and I'm- I'm just sad to see some of the attitudes that
prevail about the vote, among young black people. Uh.. I think that uh..
that the older people are very religious about it. I know that uh.. my
mother uh.. she- she voted- she was 92 when she died, and she voted in
every election, and I would have to- to take her and to see her go and
vote. I mean, she did not do absentee ballot. She went. And uh.. and
I've seen other people who were, you know, in the older generations,
uh.. 50's and so forth, and how they- they valued the vote, because they
have seen the effort. But our young people, perhaps they have not seen
enough. They have not been told the story, as vividly as uh.. as the
older people have been told and witnessed the story by way of
television, and witnessed uh.. sharecropping and witnessed some of the
kinds of uh.. exploitation of women that naturally occurred in the
south, that they had not. And so these things are images that they
cannot identify with. It's like if you're- if you're- if you're a fool,
you know- I mean, for somebody to say they're hungry, you know, you- you
think that uh.. that that's something that doesn't concern you, uh.. to
see somebody. So we have developed a kind of an immunity to uh.. to- to
and a- an immunity indifference to some of the things that we oughta
value as a people, particularly the vote. And particularly education,
that's another thing that I'm concerned about.

Q: So how do you reach young people today? As I indicated from the very
beginning, this is something we hope will have an impact on young people
who might come and see this.

**Charles Robertson:** Okay. But you know, I'm- I'm going to say that I
have found, in the bitterest- you know, young people who are just
totally bitter and ugly and defiant, that if we approach them,
sincerely, you know, not in a confrontational manner, that they will
respond reasonably, you know. Like I've- I've had kids that- I live in a
neighborhood where there are old people- there's- there's a- there's a
uh.. an independent living place where they have counselors coming by,
checking on people, as they are fairly ambulatory, and uh.. there's a
school right by the house, it's the School of Discovery. And uh.. and so
uh.. I see and I hear kids, I mean, cursing like sailors- you know,
they're fighting, and I've stopped fights. You know, I mean, I'm- I'm
somebody who I believe in them and I have actually intervened and they
have responded, every time, reasonably well. Okay. And I think that as
adults, we have to say that here's a child who needs my involvement.
And- and we have to do that uh.. every- every child is the
responsibility of every person in the village. And so if we take on that
responsibility and interact with young people, I think that uh.. we will
begin to uh.. to shorten the gap, because what has happened is that we
are having a lot of young people having children, and having them at an
age that they are unable to- to really nurture them, because they need-
they haven't been fully nurtured themselves. So the baby is demanding
the same thing that this young mother is demanding, which is attention.
And uh.. so we have so many kids that are being born and they are not
nourished and they're not really properly cared for because they have
young parents who are struggling for a kind of a independence
themselves. And- and- and- we have too much of that. And that's one of
the things that we have to rectify in the community.

Q: Yes. I remember doing a little piece once on young mothers.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum.

Q: And it struck me once, this young girl, so beautiful and so bright.
She said, "I want another baby." I said, "Why?" She said, "It's the only
person in my life who loved me." And so I'm supporting what you said
about attention.

**Charles Robertson:** Yeah. Uh-hum.

Q: This isn't profound, babies having babies. And I thought to myself,
wow.

**Charles Robertson:** Well, you know, that- that unfortunately is- is-
is the status of things in the black community, and- and I think that if
we could address that problem, that we would really solve many of our
problems before they become white problems.

Q: Right. I hear what you're saying.

**Charles Robertson:** Uh-hum.

Q: Final words for young people today, who might come to this museum and
see this film, and to see you.

**Charles Robertson:** Okay.

Q: This film is about freedom, societal freedom. Does that have value
and meaning for young kids today?

**Charles Robertson:** I think- I think freedom uh.. has meaning but the
other half of freedom has not really reached the young people because
with freedom comes responsibility. And one of the things that uh.. that
I think our young people are missing and that is because we don't have
enough adults, seasoned adults, to help them to see that they- they have
a responsibility for each act they initiate. And uh.. and freedom gives
them the- the unlimited possibility of acting, of doing, of going, and
uh.. and- and they- they should not treat that callously. And I think
that that's what's happening, is that we have too many young people who
are too free of the responsibilities for their acts. And uh.. and- and
they- they- they really are trying to pawn them off on institutions.
They're pawning the problems off on institutions. And uh.. and- and
they're not really addressing uh.. that internal desire to be fulfilled.
And uh.. and it is not about doing what I want to do. It's about doing
what is right. It's about uh.. being compassionate. It's about showing
kindness to others and- and I- I tell you, one of the things that
happened to me \<laughs\> is that uhm.. is that uh.. when I do something
nice, I feel a great kind of reward and I think that- that- that that's
a universal feeling. So if we can identify some nice things to do for
others, and then we can test it and see how we feel about it, I think
more young people will become more compassionate and more humane in
their relationship with others. And I think also that with this
humanity, becomes a responsibility for our young people to become more
literate and to become more readers uh.. to- to really- uh.. to look at
the older people in our community and our family and to- to talk to them
and to uhm.. to really ask them about things in the past. Because the
more our young people know about the past, the more they are going to be
prepared for the future, because we are having that circle uh.. that
we're experiences- what has happened, happens again, and if we don't
take advantage of a lesson of the past, we tend to repeat the thoughts
in the future. So I'd encourage young people to talk to their- their
family members, the people- the older people in the community. I mean,
don't discount them because they- they- they're decrepited. Don't
discount them because they- they walk humpbacked and so forth. Talk to
them and I think that we'll be enriched as a result.

Q: Good.

\<CREW TALK\>

Q: Take your time.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** Uh-hum. Now did you want me to start this of by
how I got involved?

Q: If that's what you'd like to do.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** In- in the movement.

Q: Again, it's collaborative and I don't have any set approaches.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** Okay. Okay. \<clears throat\> Okay. Yeah.

\<CREW talk\>

Q: You start any way you want to. But you wanted to start about how you
got into this.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** \<laughs\> Yeah.

Q: Knock yourself out.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** Yeah. I- I- I think- I'll- I'll start there
because it would set uh.. the stage for where I'm going. I was read
{ph?\] in Savannah, Georgia. It's a seaport town in southwest Georgia, a
beautiful city. And uh.. after spending uh.. a hitch in the Marine
Corps, I moved back home. And uh.. I got a job at the- on the
waterfront, as a longshoreman. And uh.. I says, "Gotta be a better way
of making a living than doing this." Uh.. so I went to one of the plush
hotels downtown. I had a friend working there and he gave me a job as a
bellhop. And uh.. I did that for- for a number of years. Now my second
job uh.. was uh.. shooting pool. Uh.. I was not just an average 9-ball
pool- pool shooter. Uh.. I was excellent, if I might say so myself. And
uh.. that was sorta my second job. And there was a guy by the name of
Jose Williams, uh.. who every day, at noon, it was- you could set your
watch by- at noon, every day, Jose Williams marched three or four
hundred people downtown, Savannah, and he would assemble them in a park,
right across the street from the hotel where I worked. And uh.. he would
climb up on Indian Chief by the name of Tommy Chee-Chee \[ph?\]- the
statue is still there. And Jose would talk about white folk, like I've
never heard anybody talk about white folk, before, in my lifetime. And I
said, either this man's gotta be crazy or he is one heck of a leader. So
I started following him, just- just listening. And I found out that they
wanted to integrate the hotels and motels and restaurants in Savannah.
And the hotel where I worked, which was the Manga \[ph?\] Hotel, one of
the plush hotels, uh.. they were gonna come to the hotel to try to
check-in. Well, I decided that I was gonna leave the door unlocked,
because every day at noon, we were told, "Lock the doors" until the
demonstrators would leave. So I left the door open, and some of Jose
folks came in and, of course, they went up to the counter to try and
check-in and, of course, they wouldn't do it. And they sat in. And they
were locked up. Well, the innkeeper asked, "Why and who left the door
open?" And how he figured out I did it, I do not know to this day. But
shortly after everyone was arrested, I was called into the innkeeper's
office and told that I was fired. And uh.. I started following Jose even
more. And then uh.. Dr.- Jose had Dr. King to come to town. And he came
to the pool room where I was playing pool one evening- uh.. one
afternoon. And uh.. I'll never forget it. I- I was getting ready to play
the 8-ball in the side, the 9-ball in the corner, and get paid. And he
said, "If you fellows don't mind, would you just give me a few minutes
of your time." And I said, uh.. "Yeah. I've got time for that." And I'm-
racked up the ball- I had the balls racked up and I was getting ready to
break. And he came over to me and he said, "Excuse me." He said, "What's
your name?" I said, "My name's Willie Bolden. What's your name?" He
said, "My name is Martin Luther King Junior." Okay. He said, "Just give
me a few minutes of your time." So I sat up on the bench and he talked,
and uh.. he left. Well, that evening I went home to get cleaned up so I
could come back out to have fun, to party. And while I was taking a
bath, something went off in the back of my head and I heard him talk
about he was gonna be at this church, speaking that night, and he was
inviting everybody to come. And I thought, maybe I'll- I'll go. And I
didn't want my boys to know, that I was going, of course. So I went two
streets over, all the way around, to get to the church, to keep the boys
from seeing me go. And when I got there, I'll never forget it. I leaned
back on the wall with my arms fold, just listening to him. And the man
was awesome. He was just picking people up out of their chairs, seats,
putting them back down, lift them up. So. And then there I was at times,
chill bumps. And I said to myself, I said, "Now you know, another man is
not supposed to make another man feel the way this man is making me
feel." And when he finished, folk were just clapping, clapping,
clapping, clapping, and lining up around the walls to go shake his hand.
So I decided I would go around and shake his hand. And when I got to him
and I reached out, to shake his hand, I said, "Dr. King, I- I enjoyed
your message." He said, "I'm so glad and- and Willie, I'm glad you
came." Now you could imagine what that did to me. Uh.. this man had been
in town for two or three days. He'd met hundreds of people then. Why
would he remember little old me? I didn't have on the same clothes I had
on when he saw me in the pool room, but he remembered my name. Well,
several weeks after that, Jose called me and said, "Dr. King want you to
come to Atlanta. He wants to interview you. He wants to talk to you." I
said, "Talk to me about what?" Uh.. "Coming to work with the SCLC." I
said, "Jose, that- that's that- that's that non-violent group, right?
Uh.. that's the group that let people spit on them and slap them and-
and they don't say anything and they don't fight back, right." He said,
"Yeah." And I said, "Well why don't you tell Dr. King that that's- that
movement is not for me. Because, you see, if somebody slap me, if they
have a face, I'm gonna slap 'em back. And if somebody spit on me, if
they have lips, I'm gonna try to knock 'em off." He said, "Well, Bolden,
I would suggest that you just go and when you get there, tell him that."
Well I came to Atlanta, and I met with Dr. King. I started working with
the SCLC. It was three years, before I came back, to Savannah. Uh..

Q: They said King could play some pool too, couldn't he?

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** He could play a little bit. He could play a
little bit.

Q: Not like you.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** Yeah. But uh.. it- it would just- it would just
amaze him to- to- to see me- to see play because, you know, I'm
65-years-old now, but uh.. back during that time I was what? About 21,
22, had a sharp eye, a steady hand, and uh.. and I could play. And he-
he was just amused- and, matter of fact, uh.. we would go to- uh.. when
we would go to some communities organizing, he would say, "Just take
Bolden to the pool room and- and- and he'll get the folk attention. You-
you all just get him to the pool room." And we had another guy, by the
name of Big Lester, was a crap shooter. You know, it was almost like
Jesus. All of Jesus' disciples uh.. had something. You know, none of
them were- were perfect folk. Uh.. but he took all twelve of 'em and-
and turned them around and- and changed the world. And- and it's amazing
because Dr. King took people like me and many others uh.. who- who were
not uhm- uh.. your cream of the crop. Okay? But uh.. he saw something in
us. And- and in my own right, I was a leader in my community because I
had my crew who followed me, you know, so. And I guess he detected all
of that and- and- and he took what we had on the inside and just helped
develop it. And- and we took those skills and went all over the world,
uh.. organizing- organizing people.

Q: I think some members of our audience might find this astounding. You
guys were all, and women too, but mostly men...

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** Uh-hum. That's true. That's true.

Q: ... were very young.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** Uh-hum.

Q: Talk to me about youth and organization.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** Well, a- and I think \<clears throat\> it was
good for us to uh.. to- to get involved at- at a young age because uh..
some of the dangerous situations we went into uhm- take a guy like me, I
just think I could die. Okay. Uhm.. not so much of Martin Luther King.
But, you know, if I had to, I felt like I could protect myself. Uh.. I
knew how to do that, and- and I've done it all my life. Uhm.. but- but
we found that when we got in these communities- and uh.. we would
basically go to high schools. It was easy for us to organize high school
students, to get them involved. What a lot of people don't realize is
that the whole Civil Rights Movement didn't start out, with old folk. It
started out with youth- you know, from Nashville, right on down- uh..
Julian Bond, John Lewis, uh.. Andy Young, Jose, uh.. Dr. Fred Sungsworth
\[ph?\], the new president of the Southern Christian Leadership
Conference, uh.. me, and many others, we were young. And a lot of
students got involved, college students got involved. Uh.. we organized
the SCOPE project and that was basically young college students who we
went all over the world to recruit, to come back south to go to Selma
and- and St. Augustine and Atlanta and other places, registering black
folk, to vote. So they were young people. And uh.. that's why- I- it's-
it's hard for me to understand why we don't get young people involved
today. Because had Dr. King and those not taken the time, and the
chance, on pulling us in, we would have never gotten involved. And it-
it- it hurts me today because young people, they- the seem to not want
to get involved. Uh.. and- and I don't believe it's because uh.. they
don't understand what's happening. I- I believe it's because those of us
who have gone through the fire, have not taken the time to take down and
do what folk did to us. And that is, teach us. If anybody had told me
that I would end up coming out of a pool room, and for the most part a
pool hustler, and end up going to Harvard University and getting a
Master's in Education, and attending the John F. Kennedy Institute of
Politics- if anybody had told me that in 1960, 1961, I'd have said, "You
gotta be out of your mind." But it happened. And it happened because
some people saw something in me and they helped develop it. And that's
what we're gonna have to do, today. Too many of our jails are filled
with young blacks, and not just young blacks- young blacks, poor whites,
and Latinos. When you go to the jailhouse, that's who you find in there.
And it's not because they're all bad. They may have made a bad choice,
but they can still be saved. And if we want to reduce crime, if we want
to reduce the number of blacks, poor whites and Latinos in the prison,
we got to work with them out on the street, the way Dr. King and
Reverend Abernathy and others worked with us.

Q: Right. I saw a statistic- I don't know the validity of the statistic,
but some guy, just off the top of his head suspects that about 50% of
America's future brilliance is located in prisons.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** Uh-hum.

Q: \<laughs\>

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** That's right.

Q: Against all of the kids going to MIT or Harvard and all this other
stuff. You mean that most of our brilliance is in prison? What does that
say about us as a society?

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** That's right.

Q: Yes.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** You know, the cure for HIV and cancer could very
well be locked up.

Q: In somebody's prison.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** In somebody's prison. You know- uh- uh.. and not
only in prison. Uhm.. if- if- if you don't believe it, go around Atlanta
and- and stop under some of these bridges and talk to some of these
people who are homeless. Everybody think that they are ignorant and-
and- and, you know, they're worthless. Many of 'em are intelligent, and
very, very, very articulate. I mean, when they walk up to you on the
street, you know, and not, "Gimme". You know, they know exactly how to
speak. But they just fell on a hard time. And America, you know, we
gotta- we gotta do something about that, and stop just talking about it.

Q: We're going to move to Selma.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** Okay.

Q: But you wanted to place Selma within a larger context, because there
were things that led up to Selma.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** Well, you know, Selma \<clears throat\> Selma
was, in fact, a great movement, no question about it. Uh.. and it did
get the Voters Right Act, there's no question about it. Uh.. I was on
the bridge on Bloody Sunday. Uh.. I- I was a part of the first march
with uh.. Dr. King, Reverend Abernathy, Jose John Lewis, and I was there
on the frontline, during the second march. Uh.. I was assigned to Selma
to help uh.. organize Selma and other communities around. But I think
some of the other movements made Selma a bigger and more profitable
movement. Now why do I say that? It's because- because of some of the
winds that other movements uh.. had. For an example, St. Augustine. I
think St. Augustine, Florida, played a major role in helping to bring
about the '64 Civil Rights Act, because we were there trying to
integrate the hotels and motels and beaches. We were beaten every day we
went to the beach by the Klan. Uh.. Dr. King's house, where he was
staying, was- was shot up. Uh.. Jos- uh.. Andy and I both were beaten in
downtown St. Augustine, at the Slave Market, and the Slave Market is
still there. Uh.. in June of this year, I'm going back for the 40^th^
year celebration, uh.. they're having me to come back to- to be the
keynote speaker. So, uh- uh.. those movements- uh.. Albany movement,
where Chief Pritchard was- those movements helped, solified, if you
will, uh- uh.. Selma. Uh.. Selma was a great movement, no question about
it. Uh.. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_- loss of life
out on Highway 80, uh.. transporting uh.. supporters back and forth. Uh-
uh.. Preece Reed \[ph?\] and- and another uh.. gentleman was beaten down
and killed in downtown uh.. Selma. Uh.. Jimmy Lee Jackson was shot and
killed. The night Jimmy Lee Jackson was killed, Dr. King was supposed to
go there to speak but developed laryngitis and asked me to go instead
and me and five other of our staff went over and- and I spoke that night
and uh..- and- and as we were coming out of the church, the State Patrol
came in and beat us out of the church, into the street. But not only did
they jump on us, but they jumped on the television cameras because they
had national television there- uh.. and- and the sheriff had one of his
henchmens to say, "Get that nigger right there." And he- and he jacked
me up by my overalls and carried me over to the sheriff. And when I got
there, he asked me, he said, "What is your name?" And when I got ready
to tell him my name, he stuck his 38 in my mouth and cocked the trigger
back and say, "If you breathe, nigger, I'll blow your so-and-so brains
out."

\<CREW talk\>

Q: Let's go back to Selma a little bit. This guy, Jamie Wallace, a white
reporter, told me a story about how Wilson Baker had gone up to talk to
Robert Kennedy about how he should handle these demonstrations. And
Kennedy had told him a story about a marshmallow. How pushing a
marshmallow against a brick wall, your finger would go through it and
you would come back with some marshmallow on your finger. But if you
yield, if you have a yielding surface and you push on the marshmallow,
the marshmallow will still be \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. The idea being
that there was a lesson learned in Albany.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** In Selma.

Q: No. There was a lesson learned in Albany.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** Oh yeah.

Q: By people in Selma.

**Rev. Willie Bolden:** Oh yes. Oh yes.

Q: Because Senator Kennedy referenced Albany. And it's true that you
guys, the SCLC...

\#### End of CD 9 \####