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4 DENALI NATIONAL PARK AIRCRAFT OVERFLIGHTS

ADVISORY COUNCIL MEETING

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7 February 7, 2008

Lake Lucille Best Western Inn, Frontier Room

8 Wasilla, Alaska

1:07 p.m. to 4:21 p.m.

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16 Participants:

Mike Tranel

17 Elwood Lynn

Miriam Valentine

18 Adrienne Lindholm

19 Council Members:

Nancy Bale, Denali Citizens Council; Erika Bennett,

20 Alaska Airmen\'s Association; Lt. Col. Scott Babos,

U.S. Air Force; Tim Cudney, ERA Helicopters; Nan

21 Eagleson, backcountry user; James W. Edwards, Federal

Aviation Administration; Joan Frankevich, National

22 Parks Conservation Association; Tom George, Aircraft

Owners and Pilots Association; Sally Gibert, State of

23 Alaska ANILCA Implementation Program Coordinator;

Brian Okonek, local landowner; Suzanne Rust, K2

24 Aviation; Charlie Sassara, American Alpine Club.

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1 MR. TRANEL: We have everyone

2 present on the Advisory Council, so we\'ll go ahead

3 and call the meeting to order. This is the first

4 meeting of the Denali National Park and Preserve

5 Aircraft Overflights Advisory Council. My name is

6 Mike Tranel. I\'m the chief of planning for Denali

7 National Park and the designated federal official

8 for the Council. That role will be transitioning

9 at the next meeting to Miriam Valentine, who is

10 also here.

11 We will introduce the membership.

12 We do have a quorum since all 12 members are

13 present, so we have a confirmation of that. The

14 status of membership on the agenda is that

15 everyone is present, so we have that on the

16 record.

17 The first item will be that Elwood

18 Lynn, the acting superintendent of Denali, has a

19 few words.

20 MR. LYNN: Welcome, everyone. I\'m

21 Elwood Lynn filling in for Paul Anderson, who\'s

22 down on a detail in Atlanta serving as the

23 Southeast Regional Director. I\'m glad to be

24 convening this first meeting of the Denali

25 Aircraft Overflight Advisory Council. This is

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1 really a big first step that will help the Park

2 begin implementing some of the commitments that

3 were made in the backcountry management plan.

4 I\'d like to say thanks in advance

5 to the 12 members of the committee for your time

6 and energies. They\'re greatly appreciated and

7 will help us move forward with these commitments.

8 Really, the Council is an important part of

9 implementing the backcountry management plan, and

10 there\'s a significant challenge providing advice

11 to park management on the overflight issues. It\'s

12 important for the Park to continue providing

13 access to visitors and users, but at the same time

14 meet our legal responsibilities to protect the

15 wilderness values of the park.

16 This advisory council is really a

17 critical partnership which will help us better

18 meet these mandates and look forward to working

19 with everybody and moving this forward.

20 MR. TRANEL: Thanks, Elwood. Also,

21 we\'d like to, on behalf of the Council, welcome

22 all the attendees from the public here this

23 afternoon. So we\'ll be meeting until 4:00, and

24 there will be a break in between. We do have on

25 the agenda an opportunity for verbal public

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1 comment that can go on the record. We have a

2 court reporter present today to record all of what

3 goes on this afternoon. So we will have a written

4 record of the proceedings and also, of course,

5 written comments are welcome at any time. There\'s

6 a comment form in back as part of the handouts, so

7 any written comments that you want to leave in

8 addition to the oral comments are welcome.

9 Miriam has a couple things as far

10 as procedures and the ground rules for how the

11 Council will operate. Since this is the first

12 meeting, this is information that we\'ll just

13 review the first time, and then in the future the

14 assumption will be that we\'ll operate according to

15 these ground rules.

16 (Presentation by Miriam Valentine.)

17 MS. BALE: Is there just one public

18 comment time for the whole four hours \-- or three

19 hours, or are there spots where there could be

20 public comment maybe twice during the entire

21 meeting rather than just one time? Just because

22 people think of \-- they get ideas and also people

23 come and go and have to leave. Did you have a

24 thought on that?

25 MS. VALENTINE: If I\'m correct in

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1 looking at the agenda, there currently is one spot

2 on the agenda for public comment for people who

3 want to come and speak. That\'s not to say,

4 though, that there\'s not opportunities for people

5 if they have to leave early, to write something

6 out. It could be that during the break, make

7 yourselves available so if people want to speak

8 informally to you about a comment.

9 Currently, though, there\'s only one

10 spot. Mike, I\'m assuming that\'s formal agenda

11 process.

12 MR. TRANEL: Yeah, that is

13 something that we could do differently in the

14 future if we decide that would work better.

15 There\'s a fair amount of background information

16 that we need to get through today, so if we think

17 we\'re okay with the one segment as scheduled. The

18 next item on the agenda is to review and approve

19 the agenda for today, so it would be an

20 opportunity to change it if we decide to do so.

21 You did publish the agenda with the one segment on

22 there.

23 MS. VALENTINE: So, Nancy, would

24 you be comfortable with \-- the committee will need

25 to decide on approval of the agenda. Mike\'s

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1 suggestion is that we try it.

2 MS. BALE: We\'re doing a lot of

3 learning today, but there may be another meeting

4 where the public might like to have a couple of

5 opportunities.

6 MS. VALENTINE: Okay. Based on the

7 issues. Do you want that in a ground rule, or do

8 you want that just part of the work of the

9 committee, that we would adjust the agenda to \--

10 MR. TRANEL: What we\'ll do is

11 we\'ll note the consideration for the agenda for

12 the next meeting is to have more than one segment

13 for public comment.

14 Is that acceptable to everybody?

15 MR. OKONEK: Yes.

16 MS. VALENTINE: Suzanne.

17 MS. RUST: The agenda can be

18 changed. I think it\'s important for us to know

19 that and, really, the agendas need to be flexible

20 and if somebody has a pressing issue, we need to,

21 as far as the process, figure out how to make

22 things timely. If somebody can only be here for a

23 little while and needs to speak, that we do that.

24 It might be good to actually ask

25 that question, if there\'s somebody who only has a

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1 little bit of time and has to leave and made a

2 trip here, it might be good to ask that question.

3 If not, continue with the agenda the way it is and

4 if there is somebody, then it gives them the

5 opportunity. How about that maybe?

6 MR. TRANEL: Okay.

7 MR. EDWARDS: I think I\'d be

8 comfortable with the idea that if we\'re going to

9 have an agenda and topics on the agenda, after

10 some discussion we take public comment on each

11 agenda item.

12 MR. GEORGE: Yes. I like that.

13 MR. TRANEL: So let\'s \-- if we\'re

14 okay on the ground rules, let\'s go to the agenda.

15 Okay.

16 MS. VALENTINE: Was there anything

17 to be added to the ground rules or any edits to

18 the ground rules? Okay.

19 MR. EDWARDS: We haven\'t come to a

20 decision on this particular item.

21 MR. TRANEL: What I\'m suggesting,

22 Jim, is that we \-- that your idea is on the table

23 for discussion as part of approving the agenda, so

24 we\'re talking about moving away from just saying,

25 the ground rules are okay and putting that on \--

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1 that\'s part of the next topic of discussion. So

2 we have \-- I mean, if we\'re okay with this, the

3 agenda that we have that we handed out has 12

4 things on it on the handout there, 12 things on

5 the agenda and then at the bottom is a list of the

6 membership. The item up for discussion right now

7 by the Council is review and approval of agenda.

8 So, in the review and approval of the agenda, we

9 have on the table to make the modification that we

10 insert additional opportunities for public

11 comment. Sally.

12 MS. GIBERT: I would say that that

13 could be handled at each meeting on a case-by-case

14 basis. On the agenda there may be two or three or

15 four opportunities for public comment. Today one

16 might be good because it\'s mostly you guys telling

17 us background, but I think we can probably keep it

18 flexible for each meeting, so it\'s kind of

19 tailored to what we know to be public interest and

20 what we anticipate are issues.

21 MR. TRANEL: Okay. Well, so with

22 the ideas that we have out there, to just give you

23 a little more so everybody knows kind of what to

24 expect for the agenda, we\'re on item 4 right now,

25 which is review and approve agenda. Item 5 is

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1 superintendent and National Park Service staff

2 reports, and that consists mainly of some

3 background information on the whole federal

4 advisory committee process, which I will be

5 giving. It also includes a review of the sound

6 monitoring program in the park, which Pam Sousanes

7 will be giving, and that\'s what No. 5 is.

8 No. 6, member reports, we do have

9 one presentation from Lt. Col. Babos on the

10 military use of air space that affects Denali

11 National Park. And then after that we will move

12 mostly into developing priorities for the Council

13 to work on, is what most of the rest of the time

14 will be comprised of. So we could \-- the idea was

15 that we consider having a public comment

16 opportunity after each item on the agenda.

17 What are you \-- any ideas on that

18 now that you know a little bit more about it?

19 Brian.

20 MR. OKONEK: Well, I think it would

21 be good for the public in that everything is fresh

22 on your mind right then; we\'re on a particular

23 topic. The only thing we can\'t do is get so

24 bogged down that it takes the whole rest of the

25 meeting, so it needs to progress. You know,

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1 comments needs to be precise and we can take any

2 information, ask questions and whatnot, then move

3 on. Then if we have time at the end of the

4 meeting and there\'s still additional things as far

5 as public comments, we can go back to any of those

6 topics.

7 MR. TRANEL: Okay. So, other

8 thoughts?

9 MS. BALE: I would tend to support

10 waiting until item 7, because I think the public

11 would benefit from hearing the background before

12 commenting. So I would tend to want to wait until

13 item 7 to provide an opportunity for public

14 comment, at least.

15 MR. TRANEL: Which means that we do

16 the three presentations and then \-- so from this

17 moment starting right now, we would do three

18 presentations and then we would have an

19 opportunity.

20 MS. BALE: Potentially.

21 MS. GIBERT: That makes a lot of

22 sense, because that way we\'ll get the

23 presentations and then before working on the

24 priorities where we have to actually start doing

25 something, before that we\'ve heard something from

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1 the public.

2 MR. TRANEL: Okay. Jim.

3 MR. EDWARDS: When we\'re talking

4 about ground rules, which is where we started

5 this, we\'re not talking about ground rules for

6 today; we\'re talking about ground rules for the

7 operation of the committee and its existence, are

8 we not? So I\'d suggest not only do we need to

9 have a ground rule about when we have comment, but

10 we also need some ground rules about

11 decision-making rules and who is going to chair

12 the meetings and some issues like that. But I

13 think before we get too far down the road, before

14 we can even make a decision on the item under

15 discussion, how are we going to make decisions

16 needs to be addressed.

17 MR. TRANEL: I have that as part of

18 the background on how the committee came about and

19 how it operates. I was planning to cover that

20 part of it, and there are some decisions that have

21 to be made by the Council.

22 MS. RUST: So where would that

23 happen? It would seem that that would be a

24 decision-making process, and that would probably

25 happen before we got into setting priorities.

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1 MR. TRANEL: It would, yes.

2 MS. RUST: Okay.

3 MR. TRANEL: It\'s part of the NPS

4 staff report item on the agenda. It\'s part of

5 that, because I was going to present just the

6 background on how the Council is supposed to

7 function according to the law that it functions

8 under.

9 MS. RUST: Then, we would discuss

10 and set up a process \-- this group will set up a

11 process, establish a process for, I guess, trying

12 to meet the objectives.

13 MR. TRANEL: Right.

14 MS. RUST: Okay. It\'s just not

15 clear.

16 MR. TRANEL: We know we need to

17 talk about it and it\'s coming up.

18 MS. RUST: Okay. Looking forward

19 to it.

20 MR. GEORGE: So, maybe to Jim\'s

21 point, since this is a more formal group than some

22 of the settings some of us have worked in before,

23 it sounds to me like we at least need to hear what

24 provisions for that fact are. It think we can

25 come back to the ground rules, if need be, after

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1 we understand that process a little better to make

2 modifications.

3 MR. CUDNEY: This is a little

4 different environment. Personally, I think we

5 want as much public involvement at various points

6 along the process that the public is willing to

7 provide, so the question is just how to do that in

8 an orderly fashion, and we probably need to

9 understand the ground rules and then we can

10 revisit that and figure out how to do it best.

11 MR. TRANEL: So, these are a

12 placeholder subject to modification by the Council

13 maybe as soon as five minutes from now.

14 MR. GEORGE: Just like the

15 backcountry plan.

16 MR. TRANEL: Okay. With that, we

17 need to approve the agenda to move forward. So

18 with the provisions that have been given, is

19 that \-- do we have \--

20 MR. CUDNEY: Want somebody to make

21 a motion?

22 MR. TRANEL: Well, if we have a

23 general consensus to approve the agenda, we\'ll

24 move forward. I\'ll get into how we make

25 decisions.

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1 MS. RUST: So we want to approve it

2 with added opportunities for public comment after

3 8, 9 \-- after item 7; is that what you\'re \--

4 MR. TRANEL: Well, after item 6.

5 MS. RUST: Okay. After item 6,

6 then, opportunities for public to comment.

7 MR. TRANEL: Right. So the agenda

8 is approved with the condition that there\'s an

9 opportunity for public comment inserted after item

10 6, in addition to the other place that it shows up

11 on the agenda. Okay.

12 So, moving forward, then, we

13 have \-- the next item is superintendent and NPS

14 staff reports, and we have some visual aids that

15 we will use.

16 While we\'re bringing that up, I\'ll

17 just mention a few things. The handouts that are

18 available for the meeting, the way that we would

19 like to do this in the future, and continue as

20 we\'ve done before, that all of the background

21 information is available at the meeting or

22 preferably before the meeting. So what we\'ve done

23 is made this information available through the web

24 site. There\'s a Denali National Park web site

25 that cross-references all this information and in

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1 addition to that will be a designated web site for

2 the Advisory Council.

3 (Presentation by Mr. Tranel.)

4 MR. TRANEL: Comments? Discussion?

5 Jim.

6 MR. EDWARDS: I\'d like to rephrase

7 No. 4. No. 4 should be, I need to understand

8 differences in our positions, so that we can move

9 towards No. 3. Because many times \-- I agree that

10 this is much better decision-making rules than

11 Robert\'s Rules, but basically when you get to No.

12 4, the benefit of that is to try to bring out the

13 differences, why people see things differently,

14 because in that there\'s often a more creative

15 solution.

16 MS. VALENTINE: So that I capture

17 this, Jim, I need to understand the differences in

18 order to move to No. 3?

19 MR. EDWARDS: Often when I

20 understand why somebody sees it very different

21 than I do, it gives me the opportunity to move

22 towards their position.

23 MS. FRANKEVICH: Jim, I\'m wondering

24 if 5 already incorporates that maybe with slightly

25 different wording because there might be sometimes

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1 when I understand it, but people simply are going

2 to disagree.

3 MR. EDWARDS: I see No. 5 as a

4 qualitatively different thing. For example, one

5 of the issues in one of those blocks is safety.

6 My agency has a regulatory obligation towards

7 safety. I don\'t know that the National Park

8 Service does. So in some matters, I have no

9 flexibility. I need to get the information,

10 provide it to the committee as to why my agency

11 can\'t approve something or move on something.

12 That could be a legal matter that I have no

13 ability to move on.

14 MR. GEORGE: I agree that \-- I

15 think they\'re two slightly different things and

16 I\'d suggest both are appropriate. I would make

17 the one just identified as No. 4 and I\'d push the

18 rest of them down; 5 becomes, I\'m blocking this

19 and 6 becomes, I need more information. The

20 objective, obviously, is where we can we need to

21 understand differences in perspective and move

22 ahead rather than just butt heads all day. Again,

23 I think there may be a time that \-- essentially,

24 you\'re saying the unblocking means that\'s an

25 intractable position that I can\'t move away from.

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1

2 MS. RUST: I think that I\'m

3 blocking this, I think that that is something that

4 does need to stay intact, because I think everyone

5 here needs to be able to speak strongly to

6 something they believe in. And I think having 4

7 and 5 is fine, or whatever the numbering is. I

8 think the other two could be incorporated, because

9 I think you\'re basically trying to come to more

10 information or understanding differences and is

11 trying to get you back up to where you can agree

12 in some form.

13 MS. VALENTINE: So your suggestion,

14 Suzanne, is to incorporate?

15 MS. RUST: I\'m blocking, this is to

16 stay intact, and the other two could go together

17 or be they could be broken apart. I think it\'s

18 just a matter of what makes everyone happy. I

19 think either will work. What\'s nice about this is

20 it\'s communicating where you are on the issue and

21 what it might take to get you somewhere else.

22 MR. TRANEL: And that was the

23 goal \-- and, Sally, I know you have a comment.

24 That was the goal that I wanted to mention before,

25 is that we were looking for a model that\'s better

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1 than a simple voting process and also that allows

2 for people to accurately represent their

3 constituency, you know, on the scale. Sally.

4 MS. GIBERT: I like this and I like

5 the direction it\'s going. I definitely think it\'s

6 better than yes or no or Robert\'s Rules. I think

7 that \-- I think many times something this refined

8 and showing how important it is where everybody is

9 at is real important. I think there will be a lot

10 of times where we don\'t need this amount of detail

11 or thought. I know when I run meetings where we

12 kind of move right along and there seems to be

13 good consensus, what I will often say is, any

14 objection to this?

15 MR. EDWARDS: That puts it up above

16 the line automatically.

17 MS. GIBERT: Yeah, yes. It puts it

18 above the line, and it\'s where you wouldn\'t need

19 this amount of detail, but it would be sort of a

20 first cut. Then if there\'s a need to discuss it

21 or if there\'s interest in using this approach to

22 kind of cut it more finely, then that would be

23 great, but sort of not to insert this amount of

24 complexity when we don\'t need it.

25 MR. CUDNEY: I agree. I actually

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1 think the same thing between acceptable and I can

2 live with it. That\'s so close. I mean, I think

3 blocking needs to stay and the 4, need to

4 understand is so close to need more info as well.

5 We\'re making it more complicated than it should

6 be. I think that can be narrowed down to four

7 easily.

8 MR. TRANEL: So Tim\'s proposal is

9 combining these two and combining those two. Two

10 and 3 are combined and the last two on the bottom.

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12 MS. VALENTINE: And Sally\'s

13 suggestion is before it even starts, ask the

14 question, is there any objection?

15 MR. TRANEL: Right. I guess,

16 Sally, I was kind of operating and using that as

17 the default mode, because I\'m using to \-- you

18 know, if there are objections, you have to speak

19 up. So we could add to the ground rules that

20 silence equals consent. So if we say, are we okay

21 with this, can we move forward, that if you\'re

22 opposed, you need to speak up and if someone

23 speaks up in opposition, then we go to this.

24 MS. RUST: I wanted to say I don\'t

25 mind \-- I think any objection puts it kind of in a

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1 negative. I kind of actually like what you guys

2 came up with. It\'s yes or I can live with it or I

3 can\'t live with it. You know, just to kind of put

4 where you are in terms of \-- it also opens things

5 up for discussion. Why are you not feeling

6 comfortable with this, or why can you just live

7 with it? Is there something we can do?

8 I\'ve been in lots of meetings

9 where, does anyone have an objection, and

10 everybody sits there, you know, more silently. I

11 think it might be a better place, where is

12 everyone standing on this issue? Is it

13 acceptable? Yes or I can live with it or I can\'t

14 live with this.

15 MR. TRANEL: Are you okay if we

16 don\'t use this for simple things like approval of

17 the agenda?

18 MS. RUST: I think so. I think for

19 any issue of substance, I think this is a good

20 thing because I think it gets conversation going

21 between people.

22 MS. GIBERT: It\'s not meant to hide

23 issues. I\'m trying to think if there\'s a better

24 word besides objection, because objection implies

25 a negative. Are we okay with moving on kind of

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1 thing.

2 MR. TRANEL: So what we would have

3 on the table right now, then, is the proposal that

4 we modify the decision meter with the \-- I guess

5 the Tim Cudney model is on the table at the

6 moment, which is, we have a No. 1, yes, we have a

7 No. 2 that combines these two, and then we have a

8 3 and a 4 that are below the line. And the 3 is,

9 I\'m blocking, and the 4 is understand differences,

10 need more information. So that\'s what\'s on the

11 table. We can modify this and test it right now,

12 unless there\'s further discussion or ideas on it.

13

14 MS. RUST: Instead of saying

15 objection, we can ask who\'s in favor. Who\'s in

16 favor of this? It\'s more of a simple thing.

17 MR. TRANEL: Okay. So if we modify

18 this as proposed, we\'ll do a roll call on it right

19 now, and you can \-- maybe we\'ll make cards for the

20 future, but for now it might have to be just

21 fingers. So modifying it as just discussed with

22 four levels: Yes; acceptable, can live with it;

23 I\'m blocking, and need more information,

24 understand differences, those four levels. So

25 that\'s how we\'ll rewrite this; that\'s how we\'ll

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1 make decisions.

2 So we\'ll start with Brian, and give

3 us 1 through 4 on where you are on that idea.

4 MR. OKONEK: Go for 1.

5 MR. TRANEL: Okay. Brian\'s at a 1.

6 Jim? One. Scott, one.

7 MS. RUST: One.

8 MS. EAGLESON: One.

9 MR. SASSARA: One.

10 MR. TRANEL: So we have unanimous

11 1\'s on that. That\'s adopted as the model for how

12 this group will make decisions.

13 MS. VALENTINE: On issues of

14 substance.

15 MR. TRANEL: On issues of

16 substance. Okay.

17 MS. FRANKEVICH: I\'m not sure if

18 you\'re going with this, but the second of that is,

19 does it have to be all 12 of us above the line or

20 not?

21 MR. EDWARDS: Yes.

22 MR. GEORGE: That\'s the idea.

23 MR. TRANEL: Well, that\'s the

24 premise, however, if \-- I mean, we\'re not locked

25 into \-- this is not going to be a regulation and

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1 it\'s not going to be part of the federal book of

2 regulations right after the meeting. So the

3 Council has the option of making modifications in

4 the future, and if on a difficult issue the

5 Council feels that, well, on this thing we need to

6 depart from this and issue a minority and a

7 dissenting opinion, that\'s okay. I Mean, that\'s a

8 decision you can make. Sally.

9 MS. GIBERT: I was going to say the

10 minority opinion thing, that\'s something that \-- I

11 was just on the Denali Task Force. We had to take

12 that approach for part of our \-- the scope of our

13 work was fairly broad. For one part of it there

14 was no way we could reach consensus, so we

15 established the majority/minority report, broke

16 them down and moved on, because we had a lot of

17 stuff to work on. So there are times where that

18 may need to be done because you can\'t reach

19 consensus, but not jump to minority reports

20 because it pretty much weakens the strength of the

21 group\'s work. It pretty much kind of kills it,

22 actually.

23 MR. TRANEL: Yeah, that\'s a really

24 good point. You know, the diversity of interests

25 represented here, if this group does a resolution

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1 with unanimous support from the 12, that\'s a very

2 powerful recommendation because of the diversity

3 of the group. That\'s worth a lot. The way that

4 the \-- if we did have to go to a dissenting or

5 minority opinion, maybe that comes out of the I\'m

6 blocking and here\'s my counterproposal and we have

7 the majority line and the minority line and

8 there\'s no way to reconcile the two, that could

9 happen. Jim.

10 MR. EDWARDS: But you could come to

11 a consensus agreement that that\'s the way it\'s

12 going to go. So you could still use this

13 decision-making model even in that case.

14 MR. TRANEL: Okay. So that\'s

15 adopted, and we\'ll rewrite, clarify it so it\'s

16 available on the board for future meetings.

17 So the next item, to continue

18 moving through our background information,

19 Adrienne has some brief information to present on

20 the model for the Grand Canyon National Park.

21 What we wanted to do, the objective of this

22 segment here is just some brief background

23 information from Adrienne, but the objective here

24 is that this clarifies how this group basically

25 operates differently from what\'s happening in the

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1 Grand Canyon and the Lower 48.

2 (Presentation by Ms. Lindholm.)

3 MR. TRANEL: Okay. Jim.

4 MR. EDWARDS: I think it might be

5 appropriate for me to make a comment or two at

6 this point.

7 MR. TRANEL: Okay.

8 MR. EDWARDS: When I was named to

9 this group, the manager \-- or the associate

10 administrator for the Western Pacific Region, Bill

11 Withicum (ph), wanted to know what this was all

12 about. He was worried that we were going to

13 encroach on his authority and responsibility. And

14 the distinctions you\'ve made are well taken.

15 We are not a rule-making body,

16 because we\'ve been exempted under law from that

17 requirement. We don\'t want to be, and we don\'t

18 see my role here as rule-making. However, I would

19 suggest to the group that if the group doesn\'t

20 perform, that that\'s always a possibility, that

21 they would include this under the current

22 rule-making efforts that are going on, and it

23 would shift out of Alaska for management on the

24 FAA\'s side of the house. If that should happen,

25 it would go back to Washington and, therefore, to

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1 the group that\'s managed out of the Western

2 Pacific Region that\'s doing that for the United

3 States as a whole.

4 So I am going to liaison with that

5 group so they\'ll know what\'s going on up here, but

6 there\'s no interest in the FAA\'s side of making

7 this a rule-making body in any way.

8 MR. TRANEL: Thanks, Jim. Okay.

9 (Presentation by Ms. Sousanes.)

10 MR. SASSARA: I wanted a

11 clarification on the dB level. Is normal talking

12 voice at 60 dB?

13 MS. RUST: No, I think 35 to 40 is

14 talking.

15 MS. SOUSANES: Well, I\'m going to

16 have to revisit that chart.

17 MR. SASSARA: And then they\'re

18 saying high or very high, not less than 60. That

19 means two guys camping, talking?

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. TRANEL: We need to go back and

22 look at this.

23 MS. SOUSANES: I need to find where

24 those decibel levels are pulled from.

25 MR. GEORGE: I guess one comment I

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1 just want to make at this point is on this whole

2 issue of the standards that were adopted in this

3 planning. As anybody who commented on the plan, I

4 think, realized, there really wasn\'t much data. A

5 number of us on our comments on the plan pointed

6 this out. And you made the comment about, really,

7 the intention in the plan wasn\'t to necessarily

8 rein in anything; it was to kind of capture where

9 you are today.

10 And so one of the issues is having

11 enough monitoring to be able to, in fact, figure

12 out if the standards that were adopted in the plan

13 match where we are today or not. And I think

14 there\'s a provision, I believe, that\'s even in the

15 handout that you provided listed the different

16 criteria in the final column, and it says the Park

17 Service agrees that we\'ll come back in five years

18 and take a look at those, recognizing that there

19 wasn\'t much data.

20 I guess that\'s part of why I\'m

21 acutely interested in the data collection efforts.

22 I think we all need a good objective baseline that

23 we can agree represents where we are today to

24 evaluate those baseline standards and figure out

25 whether they\'re really as meaningful as they need

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1 to be to help us out.

2 In the greater scheme of things, I

3 think those two \-- I mean, that\'s why this

4 five-year time interval was recognized. We can\'t

5 really turn the clock back and monitor prior to

6 the start of the plan, so we kind of have to start

7 somewhere, and my understanding is that\'s that

8 five-year window at least to try and capture that.

9 You can look at other metrics. If in that five

10 years if other indicators went through the roof,

11 obviously that influences it. But right now,

12 frankly, we\'re dealing with a lack of data to even

13 be able to evaluate how well those standards

14 reflect this kind of baseline that we\'re trying to

15 achieve.

16 MS. BENNETT: I think we all need

17 to be educated well enough that we know about

18 decibel levels. Like somebody who\'s a third

19 party, like somebody comes in who\'s a sound man or

20 somebody who can tell us, okay, this is a

21 nationally or federally-accepted level for

22 talking. Instead of seeing a number on a screen

23 and saying, well, this is a published study.

24 Well, who published it and what do they know?

25 That\'s where I\'m coming from. I know a little bit

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1 about sound levels, but not enough to consider

2 myself relevant right now.

3 MS. RUST: It just seems to me,

4 this is a lot of information to take in, and I

5 hope that in some way we can get more familiar

6 with it and pull it apart more because \-- and then

7 I had a question to clarify. I was just curious.

8 There was \-- you had natural

9 soundscapes, as I recall, in one of the slides

10 from Stampede area, and then we show sounds from

11 the Ruth area with no natural sounds, or showing

12 very little.

13 MS. SOUSANES: Biological sounds,

14 birds, insects.

15 MS. RUST: Biological sounds. I

16 guess the question is: Have you measured \--

17 oftentimes when there aren\'t airplanes, what

18 natural sounds there are? What is the \-- because

19 it\'s different being on the north side of Denali

20 and hearing birds and the trees and the wind, but

21 if you\'re comparing that to being on the Ruth

22 Glacier.

23 MS. SOUSANES: Ruth Glacier, that

24 slide that compared the two, it doesn\'t even have

25 any human intrusion. The only thing that was

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1 showing up was wind. It was just a physical. So

2 it\'s a fairly quiet place.

3 MR. TRANEL: So the biological

4 sounds on the Ruth Glacier are wind and occasional

5 avalanches that you hear in the distance.

6 MS. RUST: Okay.

7 MR. TRANEL: So, no birds.

8 MS. SOUSANES: Neither one of those

9 showed aircraft.

10 MS. RUST: I just needed to clarify

11 that for me.

12 MS. SOUSANES: Stampede was

13 biologically and physically loud. Then, what I\'m

14 hearing is we really need to make an effort to go

15 into detail with the data, the analysis, sound

16 levels. Have somebody come in and go through and

17 get this whole group familiar with what the

18 standards are and how they\'re being measured.

19 MR. SASSARA: Does that include the

20 buses as well?

21 MR. TRANEL: Yeah. So as a first

22 step for the Council, the goal here was to present

23 the background on the methodology, and there were

24 some questions about that that we need to follow

25 up on. So that\'s kind of a first step. Then,

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1 once we all understand how the monitoring is done,

2 then we can go into more of the specifics of the

3 data, which would be \-- we envision more as a

4 Phase 2 for next time, because as we\'ve discovered

5 already, it\'s a bit of a challenge to understand

6 how the monitoring is done, how we got there, what

7 are some of the improvements that need to be made

8 as we move on with the program.

9 What we were trying to do and we\'ve

10 made, I think, exponential improvements in the

11 last ten years, because when we started the

12 Backcountry Management Plan, we were more in the

13 mode of, well, we have a lot of field observations

14 and we have a lot of what are called anecdotal

15 data on sound disturbance. And all of that

16 information very much pointed in the direction of,

17 well, it\'s changing significantly from, say, 1980

18 to the year 2000. So our obligation is to get a

19 handle on, well, that\'s a resource that we\'re

20 legally mandated to protect, and so how do we

21 monitor that in a scientific, systematic way that

22 everybody can understand.

23 And the Council \-- it would be

24 entirely appropriate for this group to make

25 recommendations to Park management about the

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1 monitoring program.

2 MR. CUDNEY: I have some of the

3 current data by aircraft, by elevation, by

4 take-off, fly-over and stuff with the decibel

5 levels. So I\'ll share that stuff. It\'s all in a

6 pretty detailed chart that actually was used for

7 the Grand Canyon work group. It\'s by aircraft,

8 take-off, landing. It will surprise you.

9 MS. BENNETT: Does it say what kind

10 of aircraft?

11 MR. CUDNEY: Yes, it does.

12 MR. TRANEL: Tim, if you can get

13 that to Miriam, and then we\'ll circulate it and

14 make it available to the public as well. Tom.

15 MR. GEORGE: One more detail on,

16 again, helping bring the group up to speed on

17 sound or the monitoring. This does need to get

18 pretty specific, especially in the early days of

19 the program, and you can acknowledge that in a lot

20 of cases you picked airstrips from an access

21 standpoint, which makes perfect sense. It\'s a big

22 place for strolling around on the ground. But we

23 really need to know the physical proximity of the

24 sensors, like how far from the airstrip because \--

25 I mean, I\'ve been to other presentations where the

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1 Park Service has played these sound clips, and if

2 you literally have a sensor right off the end of

3 the airstrip, I\'m sorry, that\'s not representative

4 of an area the size of the Park. Again, that\'s on

5 the education side of this. We can get into the

6 footprints of noise that airplanes make, and it\'s

7 certainly much worse at take-off in a defined area

8 than it is later on. So we really do need to get

9 into that in enough detail to have confidence in

10 the data and/or make recommendations as to how to

11 make that data better so we can all stand behind

12 it, eventually, when we actually need to apply it.

13 MS. SOUSANES: That\'s a good point,

14 and that\'s a good reason to go back to the random

15 grid where those grids are in place and they\'re

16 not at airstrips necessarily and they\'re not

17 located at the north end of the Ruth Glacier strip

18 where it\'s going to be really loud. I think that

19 that park-like grid is where we can get

20 objective data. We\'re not putting them in places

21 where we expect to hear something; we\'re putting

22 them in places that\'s pretty random and what we

23 hear is what we hear. So that\'s a good reason to

24 go to the grid, but maybe the timeline needs to be

25 different. Maybe we need to have one, say,

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1 somewhere in there where it\'s monitored \--

2 MR. GEORGE: Or half a dozen sites

3 that continuously are required to supplement your

4 roving sites; otherwise, it will be 100 years

5 before you get enough data.

6 MS. SOUSANES: When we were

7 targeting those points, that was earlier when we

8 were first starting. The technology for sound

9 monitoring is evolving so quickly it\'s amazing

10 where we\'ve come in six years. That was kind of a

11 trial and error. That\'s not \-- like you said,

12 it\'s not objective and for objective standards

13 we\'re going to have to look at something like that

14 grid system. That\'s a good point.

15 MR. TRANEL: Okay. So we need to

16 take a break before too long. We could do that

17 now and come back with Lt. Col. Babos. We could

18 take a break and come back with Lt. Col. Babos

19 with a presentation and then take some public

20 comment and move forward?

21 MR. CUDNEY: That sounds good.

22 MR. TRANEL: Nan has a question.

23 MS. EAGLESON: In this approach to

24 get more real data about the soundscape, are there

25 real numbers available coming from the commercial

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1 air traffic for how many flights you do over the

2 Park? I see numbers for how many landings on the

3 Ruth Glacier, but are there real numbers available

4 for how many flights going over from Denali Air or

5 Kantishna Air or Talkeetna?

6 MR. CUDNEY: Well, they\'re

7 available. Now, whether the individual operator

8 might want to share them \-- as I said, I don\'t

9 particularly want my competitors to know exactly

10 what I\'m doing. Now, I don\'t have a problem

11 sharing it with the Park and having it sanitized,

12 but I\'ve been through this process before and it\'s

13 \-- you know exactly what I\'m talking about.

14 MS. EAGLESON: I mean, I might be

15 naive in asking that.

16 MR. CUDNEY: No, no, no, you\'re not

17 at all. You\'re not at all.

18 MS. EAGLESON: I\'m just trying to

19 understand what is happening out there.

20 MR. CUDNEY: The air tour operator

21 group that we work on on the helicopter, we take

22 information from all helicopter operators as far

23 as a safety survey from Grand Canyon, from Hawaii,

24 from Las Vegas, from New York, from Alaska, et

25 cetera. They\'re all turned in on the number of

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1 flights, number of hours, number of passengers and

2 then it\'s all sanitized to reach a graph. I have

3 no problem with sharing that information, as long

4 as it\'s sanitized and it doesn\'t show X operator

5 did X, Y, Z. I mean, there\'s no reason that all

6 the operators \-- because there\'s approximately

7 40,000 flights over the north side of X. We\'ve

8 had this discussion before when you asked me for

9 sanitized information.

10 MR. EDWARDS: I\'d suggest that this

11 falls in the same area as the decibel issue, that

12 there\'s a methodological issue here that we need

13 to address before we start collecting and making

14 decisions on this kind of data, because there are

15 people transiting the Park as well as people who

16 are operating into it.

17 MR. SASSARA: And there\'s planes

18 that are supposed to be there, Park Service planes

19 that are contributing to it.

20 MR. GEORGE: I think at a later

21 meeting we need to build some materials and just

22 share a little bit more about how aviation works.

23 Unfortunately, I\'m not aware of any single place

24 you could go to get overall measures like that

25 because, again, it\'s a mixture of commercial

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1 traffic, noncommercial traffic, jets at 30,000

2 feet, et cetera. So I think we need to lay out

3 for you a little bit about just how varied some of

4 those uses are to get a better handle on what air

5 traffic around the Park is like.

6 Right now I can\'t think of a single

7 place you could actually go get numbers. There\'s

8 been a project, the Capstone Project, which has

9 attempted to do that on a statewide basis to

10 establish kind of where people fly, for the need

11 for aviation safety in Alaska and even that has

12 been extremely difficult. We can look at the data

13 that they collected over the Park, but they don\'t

14 have to tell you why half of what the commercial

15 operators do isn\'t reflected in that at all. It\'s

16 a very challenging thing. It\'s almost as

17 imprecise as the sound collection data.

18 MR. TRANEL: So on the part of the

19 agenda that talks about prioritizing work for the

20 Council, it might be good today to set up \-- to

21 prioritize some information needs and how we\'re

22 going to address them, because there might be some

23 homework assignments. A lot of the information

24 that\'s just been discussed in the last five

25 minutes is information we need help from some of

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1 you to get. So maybe next time around there will

2 be a lot more member reports and fewer NPS

3 reports.

4 Anyway, why don\'t we break for ten

5 minutes, and we\'ll come back with the military

6 presentation and an opportunity for public

7 comment. So we\'re adjourned for ten minutes.

8 (Break taken.)

9 MR. TRANEL: So for the next

10 segment we have Lt. Col. Scott Babos from the

11 Department of Defense. And after that we\'ll talk

12 about how we\'ll structure the public comment

13 section so you can \-- if you want to say any more

14 by introduction, go ahead.

15 (Presentation by Lt. Col. Scott

16 Babos.)

17 MR. TRANEL: Any questions or

18 discussion from the Council?

19 MR. GEORGE: Yeah, Scott, a couple

20 things. You don\'t get off the hook quite that

21 easy.

22 No. 1, do you have figures, not

23 right now but later, you could share with us on

24 the use of that Susitna MOA?

25 LT. COL. BABOS: Yeah.

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1 MR. GEORGE: Because I know you

2 track statistics on that and that would help one

3 of the questions of, well, how much aircraft is

4 there.

5 The other part, I think, is just we

6 need to broaden out a little bit more in terms of

7 that military operations area is air space that

8 has been specially designed where you can do just

9 maneuvering kind of training, high speed in excess

10 of 250 knots. It doesn\'t mean that military

11 aircraft aren\'t fully legal and able to fly

12 through the rest of the air space under 250 knots,

13 and there are some other provisions there. So, in

14 fact, we do see military aircraft at other parts

15 of the Park outside that air space.

16 So I think it\'s important to

17 recognize that that air space that he\'s talking

18 about there is specifically for this kind of

19 training and there are still military aircraft,

20 and they may be less now that the A-10s are gone,

21 but I\'ve personally jostled nose to nose with the

22 A-10s in Windy Pass at well below the peak

23 altitude, and they were legally within their

24 rights to be there.

25 So unless you\'re telling us the

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1 military is actively prescribed they can\'t fly at

2 all in the Park, yeah, it\'s not that we shouldn\'t

3 expect that we\'re going to see them in some

4 places, but not in a training environment, high

5 speed, all the things that you mentioned.

6 LT. COL. BABOS: That\'s a very good

7 point. You will see \-- I mean, during the

8 summertime, we probably have in excess of probably

9 3- to 400 air crews that come TDY to Elmendorf or

10 to Eielson for training. And if they move back

11 and forth between bases, they\'re perfectly legal

12 to file VFR and fly through some of this air

13 space. That\'s where you\'re going to see them.

14 Now, they are discouraged \-- I

15 mean, every briefing that is given to TDY air

16 crews explains to them that this is our backyard

17 and if you\'re going to come and mess in our

18 backyard, you\'re going to be sent home. I have

19 seen air crews sent home for violations of noise

20 complaints or buzzing somebody. We do try to

21 enforce it, but it is very possible that you may

22 see aircraft training through Denali National

23 Park.

24 MR. SASSARA: Could they get

25 permission, though \-- say, they asked, would the

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1 commander give them permission or would he say, at

2 your discretion or \--

3 LT. COL. BABOS: Permission from

4 who? Permission from the military boss?

5 MR. SASSARA: From the military

6 boss.

7 LT. COL. BABOS: They\'re probably

8 not asking the question.

9 MR. SASSARA: We do see them every

10 year without exception, maybe ten times a year. I

11 was climbing in there a year ago and I saw two

12 Raptors come down to Ruth, you know, 500 feet or

13 less, but it doesn\'t happen every day. But I

14 think these are transitional aircraft that are

15 going back and forth between the air bases and

16 they just do a little side trip in there. There\'s

17 no dog fighting. But they are maneuvering around

18 and they are going fast and slow.

19 MR. TRANEL: Are there other

20 questions or discussions?

21 MR. LYNN: There is some other

22 training that military aircraft do that we

23 appreciate, and that\'s helping us in certain base

24 camps on the mountain.

25 LT. COL. BABOS: Yeah. The Army

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1 Chinook helicopters do a lot of work and they may

2 go into Denali for training themselves or to

3 assist the National Park as required. This

4 audience is the right crowd: Do you have more

5 problem with helicopters or with fighter jets?

6 Because they\'re two different groups of people

7 with the military. As we go through this, I\'ll

8 get a better feel if it\'s more the helicopters or

9 the fighters that are causing any issues, so we

10 can watch for them.

11 MR. LYNN: I\'m not aware of any

12 problems with the helicopters.

13 MR. SASSARA: I think it\'s the

14 fighters, C-130s. I\'ve seen those before.

15 Typically those transitional planes. Helicopters

16 seem to know more what\'s going on up there. They

17 know the Park and know the frequencies for the

18 most part.

19 LT. COL. BABOS: Thank you.

20 MR. TRANEL: Thank you.

21 So the next thing we agreed to when

22 we approved the agenda, we\'re complete with No. 6,

23 and we agreed that we would have an opportunity

24 for public comment at this time. So if we could

25 see by a show of hands anyone who would like to

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1 make some comments for the record just to start.

2 So we have one, two, three. If we

3 could keep the comments to within three minutes,

4 would be good. And for the purposes of recording,

5 if you could give your name \-- and if you need

6 help with the spelling, ask for it \-- and

7 affiliation if you want to. That part\'s optional.

8 But if we could get your name for the record, that

9 would be great. We\'ll go in order of sign-up.

10 So, Adrienne, do you have the

11 sign-up sheet?

12 Brian.

13 MR. OKONEK: You know, if there\'s

14 only three people with comments, do we really need

15 that tight of constraint on time? We\'ve only got

16 three people.

17 MR. TRANEL: Five?

18 MR. OKONEK: Let\'s just see how it

19 works.

20 MR. TRANEL: Well, based on a lot

21 of public meeting experience, I highly recommend

22 having a time limit. But, I mean, that\'s

23 Denali-related and maybe that\'s why, but \--

24 MR. EDWARDS: Some of us would like

25 to hear what the public has to say. I would like

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1 to see how it works.

2 MR. TRANEL: Well, Jim, I\'m not

3 questioning that at all. I\'m just recommending

4 there be a time limit.

5 MR. EDWARDS: I\'m opposing that,

6 and the reason I\'m opposing it is I think it will

7 work out that it\'s not going to be an issue. If

8 it turns out to be an issue, then we\'ll limit the

9 time.

10 MR. TRANEL: Well, are there other

11 feelings on that?

12 MS. BENNETT: I think to have a

13 general time constraint in mind would be a good

14 start, but if we have one comment person and

15 half-an-hour allotted for the comment period, that

16 person \-- I don\'t know. I think having a time in

17 mind is a good idea or it could get out of hand.

18 MR. CUDNEY: I agree.

19 MS. RUST: I think it\'s practical

20 in that it\'s 3:22, so we have still some other

21 things to accomplish. So it would seem that a

22 reasonable time amount \-- and then those things

23 also could be \-- they could be discussed in other

24 new business, and we could readdress if there\'s

25 something that needs to continue for longer.

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1 Maybe an initial five minutes and then if we need

2 to continue, we can. I\'m just suggesting.

3 MR. TRANEL: I should also remind

4 you that the Federal Advisory Committee Act

5 requires that written comment be accepted at

6 meetings. There\'s no requirement for anything

7 beyond written comments, so that\'s an additional

8 opportunity that we\'re providing. So if \-- we\'ll

9 suggest five minutes as a guideline?

10 MR. GEORGE: Okay.

11 MS. RUST: Then we could revisit.

12 MR. TRANEL: Per person. Is that

13 okay, Jim?

14 MR. EDWARDS: I can live with it.

15 MS. LINDHOLM: We have Dan first

16 and then Jim.

17 MR. TRANEL: Okay. If you could

18 stand, maybe come a little closer so everyone here

19 can clearly hear you. Go ahead.

20 MR. ELLIOTT: My name is Dan

21 Elliott. I\'m a member of Alaska Quiet Rights

22 Coalition. Just as an aside, those helicopters

23 that I see aren\'t flying in the Park. They\'re

24 flying over my cabin when they\'re transversing

25 from Fairbanks to Anchorage. I have a cabin along

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1 the Susitna River.

2 My main point that I\'d like to make

3 is what I see as a weakness in this Board or

4 setup, and that is that there\'s no direct State

5 park member. There is a couple national park \--

6 there are a couple national park people, an FAA

7 person, a U.S. Air Force person, and there are a

8 number of national park conservation

9 organizations, climbers in the Park, not climbers

10 in the Park, and landowners outside the Park, but

11 there\'s nobody that has a direct responsibility

12 with the State Park, although I\'m sure Sally would

13 do her best.

14 I think someone familiar with some

15 of the Denali State Park issues would be of value.

16 Lacking that, I would hope that you would

17 unofficially keep in mind that half of this air

18 traffic is flying over \-- although some stuff in

19 the south end \-- is flying over Denali State Park.

20 And the reason for that is because of the National

21 Park, and the National Park is actively working

22 with the State Park to create a national

23 destination on the south side, south of Denali.

24 You always hear about.

25 That South Denali means Denali

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1 State Park Visitor Center. So certainly it\'s a

2 key component to what you do indirectly and

3 actually directly, also. The Alaska Quiet Rights

4 did request both to the National Park and the

5 director of the State Park to include Denali State

6 Park in consideration of decisions that were going

7 to occur through this process. And I realize with

8 federal funding \-- I realize how it comes about

9 that the State Park doesn\'t, but I think at least

10 try to unofficially keep in mind that the State

11 Park is the neighbor, particularly in something

12 like the sound measuring.

13 I would think that it would be a

14 no-brainer to have a sound monitoring point on the

15 Susitna River, which is the boundary of the

16 National Park, and gets an awful lot of traffic,

17 as well as the Chulitna River, and even on Curry

18 Ridge where they plan to put a visitor center for

19 the National Park Service.

20 So how you can do that, I don\'t

21 know, but I would encourage you to realize when

22 you see that high density area and all that, that

23 blank space you see underneath there, that\'s the

24 State Park that\'s equally high and, in fact,

25 probably even more concentrated with sounds.

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1 Being interested in quiet, I hope you come up with

2 the quietest solution.

3 Thank you.

4 MR. TRANEL: Thank you, Dan. Sean.

5 SEAN: My name is Sean. I\'m the

6 president of the Denali Lodges. Denali Lodges

7 owns two properties, one in Kantishna, Denali

8 Backcountry Lodge, and Denali Cabins right at the

9 Park entrance. We provide a very, very valuable

10 service for the elderly folks who come out for

11 hiking in the Park. This is the only kind of

12 backcountry experience they can get by riding our

13 buses to the Park and staying at the lodge for a

14 few days, maybe do a small amount of walks here

15 and there, but not major hiking and for them

16 there\'s no alternate. They cannot be camping,

17 which is ideal for the younger folks, but not for

18 the people that are on the cruise ships. So we

19 provide a very valuable service.

20 We would like that to be recognized

21 and proper accommodations be made for us to

22 conveniently continue that business. We need the

23 flight services between the two lodges from the

24 Park entrance to Kantishna and we need the bus

25 service. Both of them are noise issues, but

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1 there\'s a lot of other noise there now, too. So

2 we should get our share of that. We also are

3 local. We provide a lot of employment. We pay a

4 lot of taxes to the Borough. Pay a lot of Park

5 entrance fees to the National Park Service, and

6 also for the guided hiking we pay additional fees

7 over and above the entrance fees. So we are quite

8 heavy contributors to the Park Services.

9 We also on our own have instituted

10 conservation donations, so everybody that stays at

11 our lodge pays \$2 per day, not compulsory, but it

12 is voluntary, and when we collect those funds,

13 those are turned over to the National History

14 Association which in turn helps the Park Service.

15 We have designated those for the Kantishna Area

16 National History Association. We will continue to

17 do that, but we need to be recognized for it and

18 we need to have our accommodations in terms of

19 needed flights and the bus service. Thank you

20 very much.

21 MR. TRANEL: Thank you. We have

22 another probably.

23 MR. MCGREGOR: My name is Dan

24 McGregor. I work for Denali Air in the Denali

25 National Park on the east end. We\'re tied in to a

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1 lot of pilots who go in and out of there on a

2 frequent basis and are also users of the

3 backcountry. There\'s no reason why we would want

4 to interfere on that. I think what happens here

5 is when you think of the amount of people that are

6 coming into the Park and the way they can see the

7 Park, not everybody can hike the Park. There\'s

8 numbers up there, 70 percent of all people coming

9 in, bird noises, noises from airplanes and we\'re

10 affected by this stuff. On top of that, that

11 percentage is probably relatively small to the

12 overall amount of people that are coming into the

13 Park, and how they\'re seeing that is by bus

14 traffic or by airplane traffic.

15 Those are the only ways a lot of

16 people, as Sean mentioned, are going to get in

17 there and see this area. I think if you\'re \-- as

18 we embark on this, you\'ve got to think of the

19 price of, say, restricting this and putting this

20 back, because it\'s going to cut down on the amount

21 of numbers that are able to see the Park and

22 people that are able to access the area. They

23 can\'t get in on the ground and if they\'re in

24 corridors or in altitudes or certain things,

25 they\'re going to resist our ability to fly safely

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1 into the Park, and you\'re going to cut down on the

2 numbers that can get into the Park overall.

3 So I think that\'s a point that

4 comes fundamentally with whatever here on the

5 panel is discussing, and we need to keep that in

6 mind as a basis at the start of this. That\'s what

7 I \-- I think this is very preliminary, I guess, to

8 what we\'re getting at, and there will be a lot of

9 steps along the way, but something that should be

10 brought up.

11 MR. TRANEL: Thank you. All right.

12 So, with that information and all

13 of what\'s been presented before, we have No. 7 on

14 the agenda, setting priorities for Advisory

15 Council work. One of the things that\'s come out

16 already is information needs. So I guess I would

17 start off with \-- Miriam, if you\'re able to record

18 some things on the chart for us. It\'s open to the

19 Council. I mean, this is not something that

20 Elwood or I are wanting. It\'s really up to the 12

21 of you to decide what are the priorities to work

22 on in order to move further toward achieving the

23 goals of the committee, which are outlined in the

24 charter.

25 So how do we get there? What are

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1 the next things we need to do?

2 Charlie.

3 MR. SASSARA: If I may. I think

4 there was a general discussion of the sound

5 monitoring, the methodologies that were being

6 historically used and what\'s going forward in the

7 future, and then how that matches up with the

8 standards that were established so we understand

9 sort of where this topic is.

10 MS. VALENTINE: The sound

11 monitoring methodology. You want it further

12 explained or described or more information and how

13 it matches up with the standards as part of that?

14 MR. SASSARA: Yes. Because there

15 were questions about they said, like 100 decibels

16 for an airplane, well, which airplane? There was

17 also the random sampling methodology and, you

18 know, there\'s some questions about that. We just

19 need to understand how it\'s put together and then

20 what information exists currently, you know,

21 about have there been \-- what are the \-- have they

22 been exceeding the standards and such or have they

23 not been exceeding the standards.

24 MR. TRANEL: There were a number of

25 questions about the methodology that we committed

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1 to answer \--

2 MR. SASSARA: That\'s the general \--

3 MR. TRANEL: \-- the National Park

4 Service, so the questions that came up were, Tom

5 asked about why \-- what\'s the reasoning behind the

6 five rotating wind and sampling. How do we

7 explain that? So that\'s one specific thing I had.

8 We\'re also \-- Tim is providing the aircraft level

9 of noise information, the decibel information to

10 the committee, so we\'ll have that. There was also

11 a question from Tom about what\'s the proximity of

12 the monitoring equipment to the sound that\'s being

13 recorded, so there\'s more information on the

14 positioning of the microphones.

15 Would that be accurate, Pam?

16 MS. SOUSANES: It depends. If

17 we\'re going to analyze data that\'s already been

18 processed, then it\'s really important. But if

19 we\'re going to move on and go with the random

20 sampling, it\'s not as important. Is sounds like

21 we need to have more discussion.

22 MR. TRANEL: So we could give some

23 examples of when these sounds were recorded.

24 MS. SOUSANES: It\'s all documented.

25 MR. TRANEL: There was also some

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1 discussion of, what is 60 decibels and what does

2 that sound like? So the idea from Charlie, I

3 think, is that the National Park Service can do a

4 demonstration of here\'s what it sounds like. Put

5 the boom box there and play the sound. So we

6 could do that.

7 Then, the one other thing Suzanne

8 asked about was getting copies of information

9 about what are the sound monitoring locations. We

10 can do that. Go ahead, Joan.

11 MS. FRANKEVICH: I just wanted to

12 clarify, Charlie, that you wanted to make sure how

13 it matches up with the standards in the Denali

14 Backcountry chart.

15 MR. SASSARA: Exactly.

16 MS. VALENTINE: So it sounds from

17 the priority listing, the National Park Service

18 has a lot of information to provide to the

19 committee, and Tim will be providing information

20 back to the committee.

21 MR. TRANEL: So far \-- this is

22 related to Charlie\'s suggestion. The other

23 information we discussed was something that Nan

24 brought up on numbers of overflights, in general,

25 commercial aviation, et cetera, and it was

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1 information that the National Park Service doesn\'t

2 have. We could facilitate the gathering of it,

3 but we would need to figure out how to put that

4 together. If it\'s important enough for us to

5 pursue, we would need to figure out how to get it.

6 \"We\" the committee. Jim.

7 MR. EDWARDS: I\'m not sure yet I

8 understand what the function of this committee is,

9 so I think the first priority is to focus on what

10 our mission is and come to an agreement on that

11 and then try to figure out what do we have to do

12 to get there.

13 MR. TRANEL: Okay. Well, I guess

14 what we should do is maybe clarify some terms in

15 the charter. Maybe that would help. Because I

16 read from the charter with the assumption that

17 everybody understood what we were saying, but if

18 we need to clarify, we should do that.

19 MS. GIBERT: I know for me the

20 charter is pretty clear, pretty well-defined, but

21 even for me looking at it saying, what does this

22 actually mean we\'re going to do? I don\'t know.

23 So I think it is \-- maybe we don\'t need to know

24 just yet. Maybe we need more information, but it

25 is a big question. It\'s a fairly narrow thing,

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1 but it\'s a big question, what do we do.

2 MR. EDWARDS: I agree. We need to

3 discuss it and come to a consensus of what it is

4 we\'re trying to achieve and what we need to do to

5 get there.

6 MS. GIBERT: I\'m not sure we\'re

7 going to be able to answer it, but we can start

8 the discussion.

9 MR. EDWARDS: Once we start the

10 discussion, I think the issues will clarify.

11 MR. TRANEL: Well, there\'s kind of

12 two things in the charter. One is \-- it says \--

13 so the product that the charter refers to is

14 voluntary measures for assuring safety. So safety

15 is \-- to keep that utmost in mind. That\'s an

16 important consideration, not to be forgotten

17 about.

18 And then the second part is for

19 achieving desired future resource conditions.

20 Now \-- so what that means is, okay, so we have

21 this map. We have the different colors, the

22 zoning in the backcountry of Denali, and the

23 Backcountry Management plan says, in each of these

24 zones here is what the public can expect as far as

25 the sounds go.

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1 So the assumption is, and based on

2 all of our information and public comment as part

3 of the Backcountry Management Plan, that the

4 National Park Service is operating on the premise

5 that the soundscape on Denali has changed over the

6 last two decades, and that we have a legal

7 responsibility to address that. We\'re asking the

8 Council to provide some good ideas as far as

9 voluntary measures of how do we get there. So

10 there\'s a number of steps.

11 First of all, there\'s been a lot of

12 discussion today about, well, what is \-- what is

13 the soundscape and how are you monitoring that and

14 questions about the data and all of that. So it

15 seems to me that there\'s \-- there needs to be an

16 understanding of how we do the monitoring. Before

17 we start analyzing results, we have to understand

18 the goals of the plan and how the monitoring

19 follows from that, and then we get into some

20 specific areas of like that one \-- the one slide

21 with lots of numbers that Pam showed that was

22 titled Exceedance Data showed examples from around

23 the Park where the sound that has been monitored

24 exceeds what the Backcountry Plan says people can

25 expect.

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1 So we have numerous examples of

2 where the reality and the plan are not in synch.

3 So how do we bring about the desired conditions

4 documented in the plan.

5 MR. EDWARDS: Even your language

6 causes me concern. I hear words like protect.

7 I\'m not sure that this committee can reduce,

8 protect or hold current levels, because technology

9 is continuing to move, the Park is continually

10 being bombarded by change that\'s outside the

11 influence of this committee to manage. Therefore,

12 I think we need to look at what is it we can

13 reasonably expect to do and achieve? Are we

14 tasked with holding the line, or are we tasked

15 with looking at the environment and seeing what

16 can be done? So those are kind of issues that I

17 think need to be thought about when we start

18 looking at the purpose of this group.

19 MR. TRANEL: The implication is \--

20 well, as the charter says, achieving desired

21 future conditions, means as prescribed in the Plan

22 achieving those conditions; how do we get there?

23 MR. EDWARDS: If we can get there.

24

25 MS. GIBERT: We aren\'t the Park

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1 Service, so it\'s not our job to meet those.

2 MR. EDWARDS: That\'s why I\'m saying

3 that we need to make clear what we are expected to

4 do.

5 MS. GIBERT: Yes.

6 MR. TRANEL: Suzanne.

7 MS. RUST: I\'m just reading, The

8 Council develops voluntary measures for ensuring

9 the safety of passengers, pilots and mountaineers

10 and for achieving the desired future \-- so we\'ve

11 spoken and we\'re right now kind of grappling with

12 the second half. I\'m just not certain the first

13 half is not something we\'ve even addressed or

14 is \-- nor do I know if we could or how we would,

15 but it\'s there. It may be miswritten, I\'m not

16 sure, but I don\'t know if it was more intended to

17 read that we were interested in achieving these

18 desired resource conditions voluntary measures for

19 these desired future conditions with the safety of

20 passengers, pilots and mountaineers in mind, or if

21 you\'re actually trying to do \-- are you guys

22 following me?

23 MR. SASSARA: Yeah, but I don\'t

24 think you can change the filter because we sort of

25 signed up for this.

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1 MS. RUST: No, I\'m not trying to

2 change the filter. I\'m just trying to say that

3 our full concentration in these conversations has

4 only been \-- so I think \--

5 MR. TRANEL: The way that \-- having

6 been there in the backcountry planning process all

7 along and since that\'s quoted directly from the

8 plan \--

9 MS. RUST: I\'m not wanting to

10 change it.

11 MR. TRANEL: I\'m trying to answer

12 your question. If there are sort of two different

13 things, they\'re both important. There shouldn\'t

14 be any \-- we shouldn\'t read into it, well, one is

15 more important than the other, so one comes first

16 and then the other. There are two things that are

17 important and that\'s what\'s before the Council.

18 So if you\'re saying, let\'s not just do one and

19 forget the other \--

20 MS. RUST: That\'s what I\'m saying.

21 MR. TRANEL: There shouldn\'t be any

22 assumption that we have to do the one first and

23 then the other. It can go either way.

24 MS. RUST: It\'s interesting the way

25 the whole presentation has been today. We have

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1 kind of focused on one and if the scope is

2 broader, we should look at the mission to direct

3 us and be thinking in terms of a broader scope

4 than just the resource \-- desired future

5 conditions. That we need to be thinking in terms

6 of the passengers, the pilots, the mountaineers,

7 their safety and experience. Also, we heard from

8 folks out here about access and the importance of

9 access and balancing it with quiet.

10 MR. GEORGE: As has been pointed

11 out, there\'s this whole second element that\'s

12 safety that we haven\'t talked about at all. Are

13 there issues there or concerns that need to be

14 looked at? Are there concerns about safety in the

15 Park today? We have focused on sound.

16 MR. TRANEL: I guess when we looked

17 at what are the issues through the National Park

18 Service, we are confident that the operations \--

19 there are a lot of improvements that have been

20 made over the last ten years in safety for a

21 number of reasons, and the individual operators

22 should take most of the credit for doing that.

23 There is coordination with each other, the work

24 they did with the FAA and all of that.

25 So our understanding is that things

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1 are in pretty good shape, but it\'s entirely

2 appropriate for the Council, if there are safety

3 concerns out there that need to be raised and need

4 to be discussed, it\'s you all\'s responsibility to

5 bring those out.

6 So, Jim and then Sally and Suzanne.

7 MR. EDWARDS: You may have answered

8 my question, but that was one of the issues. Is

9 there data \-- are there aviation safety concerns

10 that already exist and, if so, who\'s going to

11 present those to us?

12 MR. TRANEL: Elwood, do you have

13 any \-- as far as safety issues from the last

14 couple operating seasons? Things have been going

15 really well.

16 MR. LYNN: Well, there\'s been some

17 splinter work groups that have tried to

18 establish \-- and maybe, Tim, you know more about

19 it \-- which frequencies to use on the north side

20 versus the south side and flight patterns that

21 folks have agreed to so they reduce the potential

22 of conflicts. I\'ve had calls from people saying,

23 how do I get hold of those flight plans, those

24 agreements. I\'m wondering if that\'s something

25 this group can start to make more formal and make

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1 available to folks, because there\'s little pods of

2 people that have been trying to take it on

3 themselves just to make things safer.

4 MR. TRANEL: Do you think it would

5 be useful for the Council to have a presentation

6 on background information on safety, where we are

7 now and how we got there. Just that talks about

8 what Elwood is referring to, how we came up with

9 the reporting points and the frequencies some

10 background on that.

11 MR. EDWARDS: And who\'s currently

12 tasked with maintaining it?

13 MS. BENNETT: Well, it\'s all

14 voluntary right now.

15 MR. TRANEL: We could provide that

16 background, even if it\'s like a ten-minute

17 overview of that. That might be a good thing to

18 have.

19 MR. LYNN: Are there folks on this

20 committee that already have \-- Tim, do you have a

21 fair amount of that? Is that a presentation that

22 you could make?

23 MR. CUDNEY: It\'s not a

24 presentation. The operators on the north side

25 have gotten together and discussed going on since

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1 that radio frequency change, and we need to do a

2 better job because we always forget somebody, but

3 there hasn\'t been an agency participation, a

4 volunteer group. Somebody picks up the phone and

5 says, we\'re going to meet on X date and talk about

6 this because we have new pilots. I know they have

7 done it on the south side as well.

8 MR. TRANEL: So there were some

9 hands up. Nancy has been trying to make a comment

10 since back before, so go ahead.

11 MS. BALE: I look at the safety and

12 I think that safety wasn\'t really touched on in

13 the backcountry plan, but if you recall, it was

14 safety that triggered a lot of the overflight

15 regulations that happened in Grand Canyon because

16 there was a crash. There have been near misses on

17 the mountain. I don\'t know if the FAA has a

18 program of documenting near misses in Alaska

19 aviation. That might be interesting data that Jim

20 could provide.

21 But I\'m thinking that there could

22 be a time when safety concerns trigger voluntary

23 limits before resource conditions work, so that

24 it\'s appropriate for us to consider both of the

25 topics. Because safety is a huge topic, but there

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1 are people here qualified to comment on it and

2 provide data on it. So when you have areas that

3 are narrow and allow landings, you may have a

4 safety concern before you have a soundscape

5 concern. You may have a soundscape concern before

6 you have a safety concern, but I think the two

7 kind of work together.

8 I feel really uneducated, so we

9 would need some information on that.

10 MR. TRANEL: So, there were some

11 comments over here. Sally.

12 MS. GIBERT: I was going to make a

13 specific proposal for the board, that for the next

14 meeting that we hear from \-- and perhaps from a

15 couple committee members what safety measures are

16 working now. How does it work now. What maybe

17 some of the emerging concerns are currently under

18 discussion. Also, hear from other constituents if

19 there are other safety issues that aren\'t

20 primarily flight safety. But, anyway, if there\'s

21 any other safety issues, to hear about those. And

22 then related to this issue about public comment,

23 opportunity for public comment just on safety. I

24 think that would be good to have.

25 MR. TRANEL: All of this for the

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1 agenda for the next meeting?

2 MS. GIBERT: Yes.

3 MS. BENNETT: This tags directly

4 onto that. As a voluntary proposal out there for

5 enhancing safety in the Park is to help or at

6 least \-- how do I put it \-- promote the equipage

7 of aircraft inside that operate solely within

8 Denali National Park and preferably all over the

9 state, equip the airplanes with the Capstone

10 technology that is being used in other parts of

11 the state to help the pilot with their situational

12 awareness, in the future weather reporting, and

13 most importantly up there, as a pilot in the past,

14 looking and finding other airplanes. Because

15 let\'s say in a perfect whatever world all of the

16 aircraft up there are equipped with this

17 technology, they\'ve got boxes on board the

18 airplanes that talk to each other. They can see

19 each other, and even though we\'re reporting

20 points, everybody might not be exactly where they

21 say they are, heaven forbid, and you can mitigate

22 that \-- you can see somebody on your little screen

23 in the airplane and avoid the conflict before it

24 ever happens.

25 Now, I can bring in and Tom also

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1 has some data on this that we can bring in that

2 goes into greater detail on why this would be a

3 good voluntary measure sometime in the future.

4 There\'s lots of things going on in the state,

5 there\'s an incentive program, a grant or loan

6 program to help even general aviation users equip

7 their planes in the state for this. Because it\'s

8 a statewide safety program that\'s hopefully going

9 to be implemented and it\'s all on a voluntary

10 basis.

11 So this is a good forum or a good

12 platform as to how do we make it safer and this

13 could be one avenue. That would be \-- it\'s called

14 Capstone, ADSB.

15 MR. TRANEL: Would it be

16 appropriate to task you and/or Tom with a member

17 report on what that is so that everybody

18 understands it?

19 MS. BENNETT: I will be responsible

20 for that, yes.

21 MR. TRANEL: Okay. All right.

22 Jim.

23 MR. EDWARDS: We also need to think

24 about transit traffic, especially people coming up

25 from the Lower 48 that don\'t know anything about

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1 Denali that are going to be transiting this air

2 space. There are a lot of issues about how to

3 take the work that\'s been done and disseminating

4 it.

5 MR. SASSARA: That\'s been,

6 unfortunately, a longstanding issue.

7 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, it has. It\'s

8 one that needs to be addressed.

9 MR. TRANEL: We need to wrap up

10 within the next five minutes here. So as far as

11 where we are on the agenda, a couple things on

12 here are somewhat optional and already have been

13 covered. I guess at this time maybe we need to

14 conclude this section. There are other major

15 tasks for next time or thoughts that we don\'t want

16 to lose for the next meeting that could be added.

17

18 MR. GEORGE: I think we need to

19 refine the sound piece. Obviously the soundscape

20 is probably the biggest issue and also the most

21 fuzzy issue. In my mind that sound monitoring, we

22 need to understand a little better the results of

23 the monitoring done to date, not only how it was

24 done, but to what extent it matches the standards

25 that are identified in that plan, recognizing how

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1 those standards came to be. We still need to

2 understand where we are relative to those

3 standards today. I think we have to understand

4 that before we go any further on looking at, you

5 know, mitigation and whether there\'s any need to

6 mitigate.

7 Then, the second piece of that was,

8 okay, and what\'s the plan for a more uniform data

9 collection process in the future, which I think

10 this group \-- based on what we heard today, this

11 group needs to become more educated. So there\'s

12 really those two parts that we\'ve got to get the

13 sound piece before I think we can take any steps

14 beyond that.

15 MS. VALENTINE: Do you kind of

16 envision \-- so the group won\'t meet again for a

17 period of time and we can either provide you with

18 information, e-mail so the committee feels a

19 little bit more up to speed on it. How do you

20 feel about \-- but you also want the public to have

21 an equal understanding. Some of that can be

22 that \-- it\'s in handout form, you know, whatever

23 we provide to the committee is also available on

24 the web site. I\'m just kind of \-- certainly we

25 could review that, then, with presentations. I

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1 guess I\'m asking about, do you want everything

2 beforehand so everybody has an opportunity to look

3 at it? And then also kind of review and maybe

4 move forward with it when we have the next

5 meeting?

6 MR. GEORGE: Obviously anything you

7 can put out in advance on the web site so that

8 everybody has access to it is fine. We\'re still

9 going to need to talk about it and be able to ask

10 questions as a group at the next meeting, so we

11 have to devote time on the next meeting agenda to

12 understanding and asking questions.

13 MR. CUDNEY: I think it would be

14 beneficial to everybody, whether it was a Park

15 Service employee or anyone, an individual to help

16 with the soundscape and put data together to come

17 and give a small ten-minute presentation at the

18 next meeting for the public and the committee.

19 I\'ve sat through some of those and they\'re very,

20 very enlightening as far as what perceived noise

21 levels are versus actual and such.

22 MR. TRANEL: So specific examples

23 of places where we\'re saying that it\'s out of

24 line.

25 MR. GEORGE: Not even just

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1 examples. We need to see a map. I mean, show us

2 where based on your monitoring today you think

3 that we\'re outside the standards that are defined,

4 so we can, again, get a picture and understand

5 that.

6 MS. VALENTINE: So basic education

7 and then application to this process.

8 MR. GEORGE: Uh-huh.

9 MR. LYNN: I think demonstrations

10 of the equipment and reproducing the sound levels.

11 What does 40 decibels sound like? Because it\'s a

12 complex topic. If this was Sound 101, then next

13 time we need Sound 102 to build on it.

14 MS. RUST: We also need to have the

15 locations exactly of where the sound is being

16 monitored. Moving on from that, I think that one

17 thing we need to also do is look at access. I

18 think access is important. I know it\'s important

19 to a lot of people. That\'s what we heard from

20 Sean and Dan, I think. I think that it\'s good for

21 us to know, to look at this holistically and to

22 look at where is sound being made, but where are

23 the people and what are the patterns and what\'s

24 happening out there? So I think that that\'s going

25 to be an important component.

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1 How people are getting there and

2 what their expectations are. I know that some of

3 that, for you guys who work at Park Services, it

4 comes more naturally. For us, it\'s nice that you

5 do a presentation, but I don\'t think we\'re real

6 aware of where everybody is going and what

7 everybody is doing. I think that that\'s

8 important.

9 Just to the safety matter, one more

10 thing and I promise I\'ll stop. There are great

11 things happening with safety. I think a

12 presentation on what operators are currently doing

13 is really important and how some of the decisions

14 are made, the background with the Denali

15 Backcountry Plan, how that is really important.

16 Because initially when we started this process,

17 there was discussion of air routes and following

18 some of what Grand Canyon was doing and we were

19 comparing apples and oranges. Grand Canyon has

20 300-and-something days of good weather; we don\'t.

21 They have a lot of good weather. So where

22 airplanes go and how things are congested and the

23 importance of being able to fly where the weather

24 is good and understanding that, I think, is really

25 important. Also keeping in mind that Grand Canyon

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1 does hundreds of thousands of flights, I think,

2 and they also have 40 operators. We\'re talking

3 about four operators on the south side. So this

4 is important information for the committee. And

5 how many on the north side? Probably four.

6 So we\'re talking about eight

7 operators working really well together. I think

8 that\'s important stuff for this committee to

9 understand, that we are meeting, that we have

10 reporting points. What are those reporting

11 points? How does that work when Erika is flying

12 around the mountain? How does she communicate

13 with another airplane? Without access

14 information, it\'s hard for us to know what\'s

15 important. Sounds like it\'s going to be

16 multi-faceted. We need a lot of information.

17 MR. TRANEL: One of the things, so

18 we can move on \-- we don\'t have to resolve all of

19 what\'s going to be on the agenda next time. I

20 would suggest, Miriam, that the agenda for the

21 next meeting be \-- that there be some

22 communication, e-mail, et cetera about what are

23 the important items, help us prioritize these

24 things so that we get all the right background

25 information presented the next time to facilitate

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1 further discussion.

2 MR. GEORGE: I was going to say,

3 frankly, a lot of this talk is about air, but I\'m

4 interested to hear what some of the nonaviation

5 stakeholders that are using the Park, what their

6 uses look like and how that fits or doesn\'t fit

7 with some of the things going on today. We\'re

8 looking at a number of different facets here. So,

9 yeah, aviation needs to be included on how

10 airplanes work and how they generate noise or

11 quiet. But I think we need to hear on some of

12 these other facets of it as well to get the total

13 picture, so we can start working toward what, if

14 anything, do we need to do different?

15 MR. TRANEL: Yeah, that\'s a good

16 idea. The National Park Service has published

17 studies from backcountry users and there\'s also

18 probably a lot of information that some of our

19 long-term users, like Nan, could provide. So

20 that\'s something that\'s good.

21 MS. VALENTINE: Nonaviation use

22 patterns; is that what you were interested in?

23 MR. GEORGE: Yes.

24 MR. OKONEK: Some of that sort of

25 use is not going to be available because, for

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1 example, in Denali National Park the only thing

2 you have to register for is a Mount Foraker or a

3 Denali climb. So people can be dropped off

4 anywhere on the south side of the Park for

5 mountaineering and hiking. There\'s no

6 registration. The Park Service doesn\'t have the

7 data of what\'s happening out there.

8 MR. GEORGE: You\'re exactly right.

9 That\'s why, rather than hearing all this from the

10 Park Service \-- I mean, I\'m happy to hear what

11 everyone in the Park Service has to say, but we\'ve

12 got representatives from some of these other

13 stakeholder groups, so whatever their feedback

14 through the constituents is is another way to get

15 a handle on this. Just like the FAA doesn\'t have

16 a handle on all aviation data, nor do I expect the

17 Park Service to have it on all the other uses.

18 That\'s actually one of the good things about

19 having this Council with the broad-based

20 representation just to make sure we aren\'t missing

21 something just because it\'s not being counted.

22 MR. TRANEL: So we know that your

23 time is valuable, and we greatly appreciate your

24 contributing your time this afternoon. Out of

25 respect for your time, I guess, I\'d like us to

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1 honor our closing time or as close to it as we

2 can \-- unless there\'s an enthusiastic consensus to

3 continue. So the last important thing that we \--

4 kind of a mandatory item to accomplish is setting

5 the time and place of the next meeting.

6 MS. BALE: May I make a comment

7 before we do that? I am in favor of having at

8 least an interim presiding officer, because I

9 think that person could work with Miriam in the

10 interim and help get knowledge disseminated. I

11 just like having a leader in these groups because

12 I think it provides a steadying influence. It

13 would be someone taking on perhaps a little bit

14 more work, but keeping all of us, like, are you

15 getting this done or getting that done. Maybe

16 Miriam is willing to take on that role. But I

17 think if it was one of us, I think we\'d start

18 taking more ownership in that regard.

19 So I have someone in mind to

20 recommend. I just wanted to see if people thought

21 that was a good idea or not.

22 MR. TRANEL: We did promise that at

23 the beginning, that we would take names for

24 potential chairs of the committee, which is to run

25 the next meeting with a lot of organizational

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1 assistance from Miriam. So, Nancy, would you like

2 to make a nomination?

3 MS. BALE: I asked Sally if she

4 would be willing to do this when we were breaking,

5 and taking on a long-term commitment might not

6 have been her cup of tea. She seems more

7 receptive to the idea of being an interim leader.

8 I would like to nominate her, Sally Gibert.

9 MR. TRANEL: So Sally has been

10 nominated as chair.

11 MR. GEORGE: Second.

12 MS. GIBERT: With the idea that

13 it\'s interim while we get to know each other and

14 hopefully we\'ll find somebody else. Because I

15 think that whoever is the chair, it is extra

16 responsibility and I have a lot going on right

17 now. It\'s not something I really want to take on

18 but for a short term.

19 MS. VALENTINE: Sally is signing up

20 for the interim or for the chair position or for

21 whenever the group decides to vote on the chair?

22 Sally, are you signing on to be \--

23 MR. TRANEL: That is a one-year

24 term.

25 MS. GIBERT: I\'m not nominating

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1 myself. I\'m saying if anybody else is interested,

2 that\'s cool, because I don\'t really want to do it,

3 but I would be running like one or two meetings

4 until we have some permanent person.

5 MR. TRANEL: So you\'re accepting

6 the nomination for the position as a limited

7 tenure?

8 MS. GIBERT: Yes.

9 MR. TRANEL: Okay. The vote is not

10 going to be done today. It will be done closed

11 ballot. If we need to vote, we\'ll need some more

12 nominees, so \-- other nominees. You can nominate

13 yourself or someone else. Sally said only one or

14 two meetings, so if someone were willing to

15 volunteer, that would help for longer.

16 MS. GIBERT: Or we could end up

17 doing rotating chairs.

18 MR. TRANEL: That\'s another option,

19 is to just rotate it. Any other nominees?

20 Volunteers? Well, hearing none, could we \--

21 MS. RUST: We can discuss this at a

22 later time. We have an interim chair and we

23 can \-- and as we all get comfortable with one

24 another, maybe have this discussion again.

25 MR. TRANEL: We could have Sally

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1 chair the next meeting and leave the longer-term

2 chair open for now?

3 MR. CUDNEY: Let\'s define the next

4 meeting. How soon?

5 MR. TRANEL: That\'s what we need to

6 decide. There\'s been \-- most of the discussion

7 has been that meeting at least three times a year

8 would be good to continue the momentum here. As

9 far as a location and time of the next meeting, is

10 Talkeetna available? Talkeetna is a possible

11 location for the next meeting and we need to

12 decide the timing. We could suggest Talkeetna in

13 April or May.

14 MR. CUDNEY: I recommend the last

15 week of April because it\'s start-up time for a lot

16 of the operators.

17 MS. RUST: How about mid-April?

18 MR. TRANEL: We could do the third

19 Thursday in April.

20 MR. OKONEK: I go to work the

21 middle of April and won\'t be back until the first

22 of September.

23 MR. GEORGE: When do you start?

24 MR. OKONEK: Middle of April and

25 I\'ll be out of contact until June.

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1 MR. TRANEL: So April 17th would be

2 out, so how about Thursday, April 10th in

3 Talkeetna?

4 MR. OKONEK: That would work for

5 me.

6 MR. TRANEL: Check your date books.

7 MR. CUDNEY: Are you putting this

8 in stone now or making the recommendation or

9 what\'s \-- if we have April 10th and then we don\'t

10 do another thing until the end of September, it\'s

11 quite a spread in between the meetings.

12 MR. TRANEL: It is. The rules, the

13 federal regulations for this Council require that

14 it have a quorum to do anything. A quorum is

15 defined in the charter as half plus one, so seven

16 people is a quorum. So as long as there are at

17 least seven council members present, business can

18 be conducted.

19 MS. GIBERT: We have to meet at

20 least three times a year?

21 MR. TRANEL: The goal is to meet

22 often enough to continue making progress.

23 MR. CUDNEY: I think it\'s a good

24 idea at the next meeting, because we\'re still

25 getting our feet wet on this, as many members as

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1 present as possible are there. Taking into

2 consideration that Brian might be gone and figure

3 out a meeting three months from that for the next

4 meeting. We\'ve been here already three-and-a-half

5 hours and we\'ve just barely touched the surface.

6 I\'m fine with the 10th, if everybody else is.

7 MS. FRANKEVICH: Two things for me.

8 April 10th sounds good, but I have to check my

9 calendar at home. If we could make this

10 provisional until we all check calendars. The

11 second thing is it takes a fair bit of staging for

12 all of us to get here and set this up, so if we

13 could go longer than three hours, that would work

14 for me. Maybe 10:00 to 5:00 or 10:00 to 4:00 or

15 11:00 to 5:00.

16 MR. TRANEL: So an all-day, but not

17 quite all day, like six hours.

18 MS. FRANKEVICH: Yes. For almost

19 all of us it\'s a couple-hour drive.

20 MR. TRANEL: Six-hour time block?

21 MS. FRANKEVICH: Maybe six hours.

22 MR. TRANEL: Okay. This is all \--

23 Miriam, we can just confirm it by e-mail. Here\'s

24 the date, time, location, based on this

25 information.

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1 Other critical information related

2 to that?

3 MR. OKONEK: Information on how to

4 get ahold of each other would be really nice to

5 have. And one thing we haven\'t touched on at all

6 is, you know, we have some fairly broad groups

7 that we\'re representing, getting in touch with

8 these different people for representation and just

9 some networking and whatnot. I guess we can leave

10 that for the agenda next time, but there\'s \-- for

11 some \-- most people on here, there\'s a lot of

12 information to gather from a pretty big area to be

13 able to represent our various interests. That\'s

14 going to be a very time-consuming, big topic, a

15 challenging one to be taken care of.

16 MR. TRANEL: Okay. So you just

17 would like to see that as a discussion item at the

18 next meeting, that there\'s some clarification of

19 what the representation is of each member or

20 something?

21 MR. OKONEK: Right.

22 MS. VALENTINE: Also, how they\'re

23 communicating with their constituency?

24 MR. OKONEK: Yeah, gathering

25 information, communicating with them. You know,

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1 is it going to be mailouts to every property owner

2 or just how do we perceive doing that? I\'d like

3 some guidance on that.

4 MR. TRANEL: Okay. Good. All

5 right. Other comments or questions from the

6 Council?

7 MS. RUST: I\'d like the time where

8 we have a little bit time to brainstorm the

9 presentations and scheduling some of that to just

10 go through and spend the time prioritizing,

11 because it takes more time than 30 minutes. Even

12 breaking into groups and coming back, but just

13 having time to where it doesn\'t feel so pressured

14 for everybody to throw out their idea on how to

15 make it all fit together in a thoughtful way.

16 So I\'d like to see \-- I don\'t know

17 if we even broke out to small groups or spent time

18 brainstorming issues, safety or this issue, this

19 is what we heard today so that we identify when we

20 leave that we have a clear picture of what we

21 heard and what was important.

22 MR. TRANEL: Okay. The way the

23 Council is supposed to work is basically a working

24 session in public view is how it goes. So it\'s

25 very much a working group as opposed to a

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1 traditional public meeting or more kind of

2 presenting information to the public or something.

3 So it\'s meant to continue, you know, as it goes

4 along, should become more and more of a discussion

5 and work session among the membership.

6 MS. BALE: So do we want our

7 designated officer to provide some kind of minutes

8 to us and then we can hash them out?

9 MS. VALENTINE: We have a court

10 reporter, so we\'ll have fairly extensive minutes

11 for today, but I think what I\'m hearing from

12 Suzanne is this idea of how the \-- sit down and

13 really work on a topic instead of just this very

14 formal \--

15 MS. RUST: I think it\'s nice to be

16 able to at least identify what those issues are

17 instead of everybody kind of in this big group

18 throwing things out. It\'s nice to kind of go

19 through and people come back and people add. It

20 might help to identify five big topics that we\'re

21 going to discuss and after we\'ve gathered

22 information, then somehow pare it down or spend

23 time on each of those.

24 MS. GIBERT: Talking about maybe

25 breaking up into subgroups?

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1 MS. RUST: Yeah, subgroups and then

2 maybe having time and coming back to the whole

3 group so there\'s nothing ever missed. Just the

4 process.

5 MR. TRANEL: That\'s something we

6 would have to check the rules on.

7 MS. RUST: We can\'t?

8 MR. TRANEL: Well, there can be any

9 number of subcommittees, but the \-- then they\'re

10 not subject to it all being done open to the

11 public and everything. Subcommittees, there are

12 fewer rules. Anyway, but it is an option.

13 MS. FRANKEVICH: If we want to meet

14 in smaller groups, instead of doing that at the

15 big meeting, it might be better to have

16 subcommittee meetings in addition to our \--

17 MR. TRANEL: That\'s another option

18 that we haven\'t even talked about today. If there

19 are specific tasks to be accomplished, there can

20 be a subcommittee appointed from the committee

21 here. It\'s good to have at least one person on

22 the Council, but there can be one person from here

23 with a couple other people who aren\'t on the

24 Council to go do an assignment and report back to

25 the next meeting. So that\'s another option to get

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1 some work done. That\'s probably going to have to

2 come into play to do the large tasks.

3 So we have an opportunity to do a

4 lot of follow-up communication over the next

5 couple months to especially prioritize the items

6 for the agenda for next time. And I know it\'s

7 kind of a daunting task to pull everybody together

8 and really make progress the first time, but we

9 had to start somewhere. And I really appreciate

10 your time and efforts to be here and your

11 contributions. Everybody here contributed

12 significantly to the beginning, I think, a good

13 solid foundation and beginning for this Council.

14 It\'s a challenging assignment, but it\'s something

15 that can be done and as I think I said to Suzanne

16 at the break, if these 12 people can\'t do it, then

17 nobody can.

18 So I wish you the best and I\'ll

19 help Miriam as much as I can in the transition.

20 Thanks again.

21 MR. LYNN: There was a request from

22 Brian to have maybe a sign-up sheet with contact

23 information that then we could disseminate to

24 everybody.

25 MR. TRANEL: We\'re going to do that

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1 through e-mail.

2 MR. LYNN: So you have all the

3 information already?

4 MR. TRANEL: Yeah. We\'re going to

5 do the contact sheet to publish on the web site.

6 Here are the 12 people and here\'s how to get ahold

7 of them. We\'re going to publish that information.

8 And then in addition to that is for the 12

9 members, here\'s how to get ahold of each other in

10 between meetings. We\'re addressing both of them.

11

12 Thank you, again. Thanks for the

13 members of the public who attended and we\'re

14 adjourned.

15 (Meeting adjourned at 4:21 p.m.)

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1 CERTIFICATE

2

3 I, LESLIE J. KNISLEY, Notary Public for

4 the State of Alaska, and Shorthand Reporter, do

5 hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings were

6 taken before me at the time and place herein set

7 forth; that the proceedings were reported

8 stenographically by me and later transcribed by

9 computer transcription; that the foregoing is a true

10 record of the proceedings taken at that time; and

11 that I am not a party to, nor do I have any interest

12 in, the outcome of the action herein contained.

13 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set

14 my hand and affixed my seal this 14thh day of March,

15 2008.

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17

18 \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_

LESLIE J. KNISLEY

19 Notary Public, State of Alaska

My commission expires: 02/22/11

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