[070420asi0830]{.underline}

Anchi Hoh:

Good morning, everybody. My name's Anchi Hoh, I'm Special Assistant to
the Chief of the Asian Division and the Chief Executive Secretary for
the Asian Division Friends Society. Professor Walter Andersen, Director
for South Asian Studies at SAIS in Johns Hopkins was originally the
general moderator for today's symposium. He's not able to be here with
us today so I'll play the role, so bear with me please. It's my great
pleasure to welcome you all to today's symposium titled, "Patronage and
Power: Women Movers and Shakers in the Indian Subcontinent." After a
year of tireless planning and collaboration between several
organizations with many wonderful individuals involved, today we're
proud to present to you 12 leading scholars and experts in South Asian
studies from various well-known academic and research institutions who
will be speaking on four topics: Women and Religion, Female Rulers and
Nobility, Women in India's Independence Struggle, and Women and Art.

In order for more interested people to be able to access the symposium,
and for archival purposes, this symposium is being recorded and will be
available soon on the Library of Congress Web site, Web cast. So please
note that during the question and answer sessions, by asking a question
you also give us the permission to make your appearance available on the
Library's Web site. Since we have a full agenda today, let's begin right
away. We have several very distinguished speakers today to give their
welcoming remarks. The first speaker is Dr. Deanna Marcum, Associate
Librarian for Library Services at the LC. Dr. Marcum.

\[applause\]

Dr. Deanna Marcum:

On behalf of the Librarian of Congress, I'm very pleased to welcome all
of you. It's an exciting day for us always when we can bring the
scholarly community together with our rich collections, and to make sure
more of you know that we have these collections in the Library, and that
they are here for everyone to use. So please spread the word about our
collections after you go home. I'm also pleased to host the symposium in
what I believe is the most beautiful room in Washington; it's
spectacular. This is a room that is reserved for the use of members of
Congress, and it's always nice when members of Congress allow us to make
this room available to others. So we're especially grateful to
Congressman Chris Van Hollen for lending us the room for today.

\[applause\]

You will notice that the mural on one wall is devoted to history and the
mural on the other wall is devoted to law, and in between are all of the
muses on fabulous silk paintings. And we always hope that the muses will
rain down on Congress in all the right ways.

\[laughter\]

The Library of Congress is very pleased to co-host this very special
symposium to explore the role that women have played in different
sectors of South Asian society. We are grateful to the Congressman for
his support of this symposium, to the School of Advanced International
Studies at the Johns Hopkins University, and prominent scholars and
community leaders for working with us to organize this important event.
Anchi has already mentioned that we have four panels scheduled during
the day on very important topics related to the role of women on the
Indian subcontinent.

I particularly want to acknowledge the receipt of the latest in a series
of important donations by Kenneth and Joyce Robbins. We just have to
acknowledge you, Mr. Robbins, and tell you how grateful we are for your
helping us build collections in the library. The collections that they
have donated are princely state documents from India. And these are very
important, hard to acquire materials. And I heard some of the scholars
talking this morning about how many dissertations have been based on
these papers. And it's really wonderful when an interested scholar and
collector decides to make these materials more widely available, so we
are deeply grateful. Later today I hope you will take time to look at
the Library's collections; they're on display in the Asian Division
reading room.

These are works by and about the individuals discussed in the symposium,
and it's our attempt to show you the vast range of materials that we
have in our collections. And you will see there some of the imagery that
these women have inspired, as well as text and all kinds of documents.
The materials are works in English and Indian languages published in
South Asia, England and the United States, and some of the documents
that have been donated by the Robbinses are also on display. I sincerely
appreciate the sponsorship of Professor Walter and Mrinalini Andersen,
Rama and Arun Deva, David Good and the Tata Group, Dr. Ken and Joyce
Robbins, and Ranvir and Adarsh Trehan, and the Trehan Foundation. To all
of you our sincere thanks, and I welcome each of you to the Library of
Congress. Thank you.

\[applause\]

Anchi Hoh:

Thank you, Dr. Marcum. Now it's our honor to have Representative Chris
Van Hollen to be a co-host of this symposium. Representative Van Hollen
was elected to Congress in 2002 and has earned a reputation as an
active, engaged and effective member of Congress. He's the Vice Chairman
of the bipartisan Renewable Energy and Energy Efficiency Caucus,
co-chairman of the Chesapeake Bay Watershed Taskforce and Vice Chairman
of the Democratic Taskforce on Budget and Tax Policy. The son of a US
State Department Foreign Service officer, Congressman Van Hollen was
born a United States Citizen in Karachi, Pakistan. And he has also lived
in Turkey, Sri Lanka and India.

He received an undergraduate degree from Swarthmore College, a master's
degree in Public Policy and National Security Studies from Harvard
University's Kennedy School of Government and a law degree from
Georgetown University Law Center. Representative Van Hollen has been
recognized for his leadership in the areas of education, foreign policy,
the environment, health care, energy policy, protecting the rights of
federal employees and civil rights. Let's welcome Congressman Van
Hollen.

\[applause\]

Congressman Chris Van Hollen:

Well thank you, Dr. Hoh, and thank all of you for gathering here today
for what I think will be a very wonderful experience and presentation
with respect to the role of women on the Indian subcontinent, and the
role they have played in so many different areas from art to politics to
religion and many other areas. I want to start by thanking Dr. Hoh and
Dr. Marcum and the Library of Congress for all the work that they do.
And as someone who represents a Congressional district that is right
close by to the nation's capital, I must say it is always nice to be
able to come to work with many of my constituents.

And Dr. Marcum is not only a constituent but a neighbor in Kensington,
as are some others in the room. So I want to thank them for all they do
here at the Library Congress, but within the federal government as well,
because I think the individuals who work for our federal government have
just made so many contributions in many different ways. And the Library
of Congress is a very special place, and this is a special room, and I
know many of you, when you look at what's coming out of the Congress,
wonder many days whether the muses are really doing their job in
transmitting that wisdom to members. And I would say we have our good
days and we have our bad days, and hopefully the good days will
outnumber the bad days in the Congress. I'm pleased; I think things are
headed in a good direction these days, at least on Capitol Hill, in
terms of what the activities here are.

I want to thank not just the Library, but the Asian Division here for
your work. I want to also thank SAIS, through Johns Hopkins University,
for their participation, as well as the Friends of the Asian Division
for their organizing this great effort. Let me also thank the sponsors,
and I want to also thank Ken and Jane \[sic\] Robbins for their
contributions they made, and also a special thanks to my friends Rama
and Arun Deva. I know Rama is here, and thank you for bringing this
event to my attention. As was said, I'm sort of a child of South Asia,
and I grew up many of my formative years in South Asia. I was born in
Karachi, Pakistan. My father was a Foreign Service officer there. He'd
previously served, before I was born, in India.

He later served as our Ambassador to Sri Lanka. And when he was serving
there, I went to school for two years, boarding school, in a place
called Kodaikanal School in southern India, in Tamil Nadu, and had a
really wonderful experience during those formative years, and have had
the opportunity to go back to India a number of times since, and to
other places in South Asia. And I must say that as all of you who've
been to India know, you just have to sort of observe and experience the
life and activity in India to know the many contributions of the women
of India. I mean, India's been in many ways powered by the activity of
women, whether it's in the cities or in the villages. But I think we
also know that just as when the history of this country has been written
in the past, that the contributions of women in the United States have
not always been fully reflected in the written history. And there are
many historical contributions to where this country is today.

So too with respect to India in many of the different areas, whether it
is art or religion or in leadership. So I think this presents a great
opportunity to shine a light and provide greater focus on those untold
stories and those contributions that have not yet been brought to light.
And I can tell you that my sister Cecilia is the member of the family
who is really focused on these issues. She is an anthropology professor
at Syracuse University, where she also focuses on South Asian issues.
She's fluent in Tamil, and has been back many times looking into issues
including the contributions of women and trying to empower women in
modern day India. And let me just end with this. I think it's important,
very important, to look historically at those contributions, but also
not just in and of for themselves; but also as a foundation for moving
forward, and to look at what future opportunities and doors that we can
open for everybody in India, just as we try and open more and more doors
in the United States and hope that we will open doors to opportunity.

For women in places around the world, we can continue to use this lens
of the contributions that women have made in India in the past to
encourage greater participation in women in India in all sectors now,
whether it's in the biggest cities or in the most remote villages in
India. And so there's a lot to learn from one another. I want to thank
the scholars especially for being here, and the presentations they're
going to make; I'm going to look forward to hearing some of the findings
and conclusions and observations that are brought out today. But I just
wanted to be here at the start to thank you very much, all of you, for
participating in what I am sure will be a very rich and rewarding
experience today. So thanks to all for participating.

\[applause\]

Anchi Hoh:

Thank you, Congressman Van Hollen. The next speaker will be Dr. Hwa-Wei
Lee, Chief of the Asian Division. Dr. Lee.

Dr. Hwa-Wei Lee:

Good morning. I'd like to welcome you to this very special symposium. I
think we are very fortunate to have such a distinguished slate of
speakers and scholars to share with us their research and other
information about women; their contributions in the southern Indian
continent. And I want to also thank Congressman Van Hollen for your
support and your guidance making possible for us to host this symposium
here, and also to my boss, Deanna Marcum; I think he already mentioned,
acknowledged or thanked many of the sponsors and co-organizers. And I
want to also take this opportunity to thank a person particularly;
besides Ken Robbins and the major donations, I also want to express my
gratitude to Ambassador Raminda Singh \[spelled phonetically\] and Jasso
\[spelled phonetically\].

The Ambassador unfortunately cannot be here today himself, but his wife
Dr. Sumichwa \[spelled phonetically\] Jasso is going to be a moderator
for our session this afternoon on women's leaders in India's
independence struggles. So we want to thank them for their participation
and playing a very important role in this symposium. The Asian Division
begin in 1928, but we began our coalition, actually, some 140 years ago
in the year 1865. Over these last 142 years, we have worked very hard to
build a very strong, very comprehensive Asian collection of 2.8 million
publications; about 16,000 active serial titles. This hobby is one of
the best Asian collection resources in the world today. In the last few
years we are also making a great effort to view our digital resources;
we've acquired many digital publication databases.

Also we try to digitize some more rare Asian materials; made them
accessible online for scholars, researchers in any part of the world.
This is a time consuming, major undertaking in all parts, but we are
working on that. We hope that gradually we'll have very strong digital
resources available to our scholars and researchers. In the last four
years since I came to the Library of Congress, I learned that we've been
given a very special collection by Ken Robbins. In my last annual report
I mentioned that we already received about 30,000 documents on the
prints, states \[spelled phonetically\] and stamped publications. And
actually I am out of date since last year's annual report; now we're
approaching 100,000 items.

This is going to be a major research resource for scholars, and for many
graduate students, as Deanna mentioned. I think we can easily support
five doctoral researchers using these very rich resources together with
the other resources we have available in the Asian collection. And
Deanna also mentioned our reading room just on the whole; if you have a
chance, taking a break or during lunchtime, you're most welcome to visit
the Asian reading room whenever you have time. We have a little display
of material relevant to the sessions this morning, today, and also Ken's
donation of paper; just a sample of 100,000 pieces of very valuable
publications. And I'd like now to ask Dr. Robbins to \-- his welcoming
remark.

\[applause\]

Dr. Ken Robbins:

Thank you all for coming. We really appreciate all your support, and \--
Joyce?

Joyce Robbins:

My thank yous may be repetitive because they've been said before, but
they're well deserved, so I will repeat them. Thank you Representative
Chris Van Hollen for securing this room. Thank you to the Asian staff of
the Library of Congress, headed by Dr. Lee, who's been marvelous. Thank
you for all of Anchi Hoh's superb organizational efforts, and for the
marvelous book display by Allen Thrasher and Nozat Katune \[spelled
phonetically\]. Where would we have been without Walter Andersen of SAIS
at Johns Hopkins, who was the great organizer with his wife Mrinalini.

Jennica Cole \[spelled phonetically\] of SAIS worked so well in the
administrative matters. There would have been no conference at all
without the efforts of Rama Deva and Arun Deva, David Good and the Tata
Group, and Ranvir and Adarsh Trehan and the Trehan Foundation. Ken, why
are none of the lectures about Muslim women? In the Islamic world the
mosque is primarily an arena for male activity, with little visible
participation of women in the rituals. Does that mean that the Muslim
women did and did not have important voices in religious matters?

Dr. Ken Robbins:

Joyce, think of those marvelous \[unintelligible\] paintings where
female esthetics or yoginis are used to symbolize a Sufi lover in search
of enlightenment in the beloved.

Joyce Robbins:

Those are images based on poems, not actual women. But there are actual
Sufi women, and saints and singers.

Dr. Ken Robbins:

I was thinking of Bibi Fatima Sam and her shrine near the Oberoi Hotel
in Delhi. One of the greatest Sufis said of her, "When the lion comes
out of the forest, nobody asks if it's male or female."

\[laughter\]

And I know many of you have seen Abida Parveen and the various critiques
of the Orthodox establishment in her public concerts. And those of you
who have seen how women are in the private sphere have seen the way in
which Muslim women, through singing, have voiced their opinions.

Joyce Robbins:

Muslim women have headed governments in Bangladesh and Pakistan. How
could we have left out the Begums of Bhopal?

Dr. Ken Robbins:

Well, first of all we would've needed a whole conference on the Begums
of Bhopal.

\[laughter\]

In all the hundreds of Hindu states in the 20th century, only Prafulla
Devi of Bastar ruled in her own name; they always found a way of putting
a male on the throne. And in Bhopal, through most of its history, either
directly or indirectly, women reigned. Now, during her rule in the 18th
century, one of the queens, Mamola Bai, who was born a Hindu, actually
ruled the state through several reigns. And she was followed by Kudzia
Begum \[spelled phonetically\], who was a regent, and some people feel
was actually a ruler in her own name. But then we come to three
remarkable women after that.

Sikandar Begum. Now, Sikandar Begum was a pretty wild woman. She went on
a Hajj; one of the first ruling Muslims of India to go on a Hajj. She
and her husband did not like each other; it was a political marriage.
And I still have these images \-- I don't know if they're true or not
\-- of her being on horseback with her sword, running after her husband,
and him running away.

\[laughter\]

Now, the card on the right that you see, this image of her, is on a
group of cigarette cards called "Savage and Semi-Barbarous Chiefs and
Rulers of the World."

\[laughter\]

So, perhaps \-- along with Sitting Bull; this was appropriate, that's
another Indian Chief. Her daughter was Shah Jahan Begum. Now, what do
you think about Shah Jahan Begum?

Joyce Robbins:

Didn't she have two husbands? And didn't she choose to marry a Wahabi
against the wishes of the British and her family? Why?

Dr. Ken Robbins:

So, I mean, you wonder why this woman \-- she's reigning and she's a
widow, and she marries a guy who's going to put her in a burka, and he's
going to do this, the family hates him, he's trying to get his own sons
in power. How does this happen? So we asked the family historian, who
among other things asked us to send him copies in Bhopal of the Mishna
\[spelled phonetically\]. Only in India could this happen. He said it's
very simple: "Look at her first husband. He was old. Her mother, who she
hated, picked him."

So this was the choice that she made; the second husband who she thought
was incredibly handsome and sexy. And he had to defend himself against
charges of being a Wahabi by the British. The third one was Shah Jahan
Begum. Well, you think there must be some retrogression; you saw a woman
riding around on horseback go running after her husband, and now you see
this woman. So what would you think about this? People didn't know how
to take this, and their status was very interesting. Because this woman,
Nawab Sultan Jahan Begum was a Lady of the Imperial Order of the Crown
of India, a Dame of the Grand Cross of the most Excellent Order of the
British Empire, but also a Knight Grand Commander of the Eminent Order
of the British Empire.

So she was both a knight and a dame, and they didn't know how to deal
with her. So what would you think this woman would've been? This woman
writes a multiple number of books. And she doesn't only write about her
political activities, she writes about her relationships with her family
and the deaths of her daughters, and her terrible relationship with her
mother because all of these women had terrible relationships with their
mothers. But these are two of the other books that she produces. She
goes on a Hajj, writes about the Hajj \-- and she's in danger a number
of times and has to be rescued, because those were not the days where
one could safely go on a Hajj. And she writes a book for Muslim women as
a guide to Muslim women.

Joyce Robbins:

So many lectures today, so many dates, so many places, won't the art be
confusing? It will be easier when you think to keep it straight. Won't
everybody know when the Indian lady came from Omnabod \[spelled
phonetically\]?

Dr. Ken Robbins:

Oh yeah, that was this picture; we have a picture from Omnabod that we'd
like to show you. I think all of you will realize that this lady did not
live in this time that this picture was made in Omnabod, and that she
didn't come from Omnabod.

\[laughter\]

So that's an Indian lady for you.

Joyce Robbins:

What about the picture of me?

Dr. Ken Robbins:

Oh, the picture of you.

\[laughter\]

Joyce Robbins:

Actually, some friends gave this to me as the Rani of Jhansi. I guess we
have to figure out how relevant the stories of these elite women were of
the past, for today. Things change over time.

Dr. Ken Robbins:

Right. And that's why we picked Maharani Shiv Kumari of Kota, who was
born in 1916. Her father was the most important, I think \-- in my mind,
politically \-- Maharaja Ganga Singh of Bikaner. He was in the war
cabinet at the time, and he was fighting the Imperial War. He also was
in the negotiations for the Versailles peace treaty and served in the
League of Nations. But she grew up in a time where as a young girl she
was allowed to wear a turban, male clothing, and hunt. And even in olden
days women were allowed to hunt, but they had to hunt privately. And as
soon as she reached her menarche, of course she was put in the zenana,
and by the age of 14 she was married.

So she grew up in a very different time, and she grew up in a time where
she had this remarkable father who built her character. And one searches
in the archives for all sorts of information. Usually one finds dirt
that somebody had an affair, or the guy said one thing publicly and he
did something privately, but only in India could you find the exact
opposite of what you found. And this is a letter that has been
rewritten, and they made a thousand copies of it. And this is a secret
letter that her father Ganga Singh wrote to the Chief British Official
in Jodhpur. Jinah Rain Vayes \[spelled phonetically\], who's one of the
Indian freedom fighters, had vilified Ganga Singh every name under the
book.

They wouldn't let him into Jodhpur, and so Ganga Singh writes to Jodhpur
and says, "My God, all these other guys are crooks and charlatans and
opportunists, but this guy is the real thing. I don't care how he's
vilified me; you've got to let him in. In fact, he was thinking of
quitting politics and going into the cinema, and I sent my friend to him
to tell him not to quit politics because soon we Maharajas and the
British are going to be out of here. And we're going to be ruled, and we
don't want a state like the Soviet Union; we want a state that is ruled
by good people."

Now, how many times have you gone into the archives and found something
like that? And the experience of giving it to this woman, and seeing her
get quiet and everybody else had to keep quiet while she read this
letter, and seeing her hands shake, and then seeing her sense of duty
and honor \-- just like a soldier, coming up straight \-- I think was
one of the great experiences of my life; to understand the positive
aspects of \[unintelligible\], but you know, tradition.

Joyce Robbins:

Now I have the privilege of introducing one of my favorite people, Rama
Deva, who's worked so hard on this conference to make it a reality. Rama
is going to read the greetings from the Maharani Shiv Kumari, another
one of my favorite people.

Dr. Ken Robbins:

Rama?

\[applause\]

Rama Deva:

As Ken said, this is the greeting from the Maharani, and I'm reading it
from her letter to us:

"I deem it an honor to be asked to convey my greetings and felicitations
to the organizers of the symposium on 'Patronage and Power: Women Movers
and Shakers in the Indian Subcontinent.' Please convey my warm greetings
to Honorable Chris Van Hollen, House of Representatives," \-- he just
had to leave \-- "the Asian Division of the Library of Congress, the
Asian Division Friends Society, and the Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced
International Studies, Johns Hopkins University, and the co-sponsors
Professor Walter and Mrinalini Andersen, Rama and Arun Deva, David Good,
the Tata Group, Ranvir and Adarsh Trehan, and the Trehan Foundation. I
wish to make special mention of both of you; my good friends Joyce and
Ken.

About you, Ken, for not only arranging to donate a large volume of
documents to the archive of the Library of Congress in honor of my
father, late His Highness Sir Ganga Singh of Bikaner, one of the most
outstanding rulers of Indian princely states, but also for consistently
working to organize talks, exhibitions, seminars and events like the
present one, which will help me bring out in much sharper focus the role
of women down the ages in the Indian subcontinent. On the vast canvass
of the history of India, even though there have been many examples of
valor, courage, sacrifice and leadership by women, these have tended to
get overshadowed by the role of men.

This symposium, therefore, comes at a good time when Indian women are
making a mark for themselves, not only in India, but even outside.
Speaking about myself, I grew up under the influence of a father who not
only worked tirelessly to modernize and develop his desert kingdom, but
also made a huge impact on the national and international stage. He was
head of the Chamber of Princes in India, and had the unique distinction
of representing India at the round table conference after the First
World War. However, what I consider his greatest achievement is getting
water from the rivers of Punjab to the parched land of the desert state
of Bikaner through the Ganga Canal, thereby making part of it a virtual
granary.

My mother always felt very strongly that for any state of people to
develop, it was important that girls also get education. And so in the
early '20s she started a girl's school in Bikaner. Since then, providing
opportunities for girls' education has been my passion as well. I've
always believed that if you educate a man you educate one person, but if
you educate a woman you educate a family. I got married at an early age
and came to Kota. Those were days of strict parda, but many things were
slowly changing in the princely states and in India. My husband, late
His Highness Maharao Bim Singh of Kota, being an extremely enlightened
person who became the Ope Raj Bromok \[spelled phonetically\] of the
newly created state of Rajasthan and had the honor of representing India
at the UN, encouraged me to move out with him and participate in
different fields of activity.

This started as it usually did in the princely states with hunting, but
soon that changed to clay pigeon shooting. In the late '50s women had
just started participating in this sport, that I managed to win the
national championship. Since then I have been a life member of the
National Rifle Association of India. With all this also came the
opportunity to travel to different parts of the world. Being very keen
to do whatever I could to bring the Rajful \[spelled phonetically\]
community out of its feudal past and more inline with the new emerging
Democratic India, I joined the Kshatriya Mahasabha and became its
president in Rajasthan, and the Vice President of the all-India body.

During the 1965 Indo-Pak War, I toured the border villages of Rajasthan,
which was one of the theaters of that war, to mobilize the villages in
support of the Indian Army. In 1967 I made a brief entry into politics
by winning a seat in the Rajasthan Legislative Assembly. However, girls'
education and helping to provide them the proper opportunities, and when
necessary the support they needed to do so, remained my main area of
interest. Being Vice President of the Board of Governors of the Maharani
Gayatri Devi Girls' Public School, Jaipur since 1949 enabled me to help
many girls to get good education and stand on their own feet.

Indian classical music and preservation of our heritage have been my
other interests. I'm a life member of Intac \[spelled phonetically\] and
DCWA, the Delhi Commonwealth Women's Association. Today it is heartening
to see more and more women, especially from the erstwhile princely
families, coming out of their homes and working in charitable and
cultural organizations, educational institutions, patronizing various
art forms, entering politics and manning their own family properties
like Heritage Hotels, and most importantly, making an impact in whatever
they do.

It is good to note that during this event, different panels will be
discussing the role of prominent women of India in different fields. And
that includes two of my contemporaries; late Rajmata Vijayaraje Scindia
of Gwalior and Rajmata Gayatri Devi of Jaipur. I wish the organizers all
success for the symposium, and hope there will be more such events to
follow. Shiv Kumari, Rajmata of Kota."

Thank you.

\[applause\]

Anchi Hoh:

Since we have a full agenda, let's begin our first panel. In general
there's one hour and a half for each panel and 30 minutes for each
presentation, and there will be probably 15 minutes or so for question
and answers. So we would like to encourage your participation. Do we
have the moderator and speaker, please?

Rachel McDermott:

Welcome to the first panel. My name is Rachel McDermott. I'm from
Barnard College, Columbia University. We're starting a little bit late
for the first panel, so we were going to have about 45 minutes for each
paper; I'm going to request to the speakers to try to make it within 25
minutes so we have 10 minutes for discussion.

Laurie Patton has generously come today on her way to something else in
California, so she has to give her paper and immediately rush to the
airport, and so we're so pleased that she was able to come. And so I'm
going to ask them both to speak, and we're going to do Laurie and then
Laurie's questions, and then Nancy and Nancy's questions. So first we're
going to have Laurie Patton from Emory University, speaking about
Katyayani's complaints. And please, Laurie, come to the podium. Thank
you.

\[applause\]

Laurie Patton:

Thank you so much. It's a delight to be here this morning. One ancient
Buddhist text, the version of hell of the writer of that ancient
Buddhist text is that one is close to something one loves and cannot
enjoy it. And that is exactly the way I feel today, having to speed off,
so my apologies in advance. I'll try to make my appearance worth your
time. And before I begin, let me also thank the people that have done so
much to make this conference happen. I've been looking forward to it for
many, many months now, since I got a phone call from a very nice man
named Ken Robbins, who I feel as if I know well now, even though I've
just met him last night, and to Rama and Arun Devi and also Ken's wife
Joyce, to Congressman Ken Hollen \[sic\], to Deanna Marcum and my
wonderful and gracious hosts Smitta \[spelled phonetically\] and Raminda
Jasso, who've been just really great to get to know during my time here.

I work on the area of early Indian religions which is particularly
concerned with the study of Sanskrit texts and ideas about Hinduism;
concerned with the earliest compositions that we have pretty much
anywhere in the world that could be understood as religious compositions
called the Veda. But my interest also became much broader than that when
I began to look at how women Sanskritists in 20th and 21st century India
have really come into their own, and that is what my paper is about
today. And it's called "Katyayani's Complaint," and you'll see why. Will
the nature of Sanskrit and Hindu religious experience change as a result
of its being increasingly in the hands of women? Will women tell
different stories about their ancient past as a result?

Are they newly empowered as we might want to describe it? One young
woman Sanskritist, Pragnya Deshpande \[spelled phonetically\] makes the
following comparison: "Sanskrit is difficult, but it is also like
prasadam, the food of the gods. When someone offers you prasadam, you
have to eat it, even when there is a stone in it. Modern people reject
the stone. They say, 'There's a stone in this,' and then they throw it
away. Sanskrit is also like a cat. When the cat comes into the
courtyard, the older women will call it bhaooji \[spelled
phonetically\], brother-in-law. Even the cat is bhaooji like a
brother-in-law in that house, but the modern girl will say, 'Go away,
cat.' In this way, modern researchers can accept some doubt about the
Sanskrit tradition; they can be critical. Now, these teachers still love
Sanskrit, and they love anyone who is learning Sanskrit, but they also
tell it to go away sometimes like a cat."

This young woman's comments indicate a certain domestic welcoming of the
opportunity to learn and to study Sanskrit, even if it comes in the less
pleasant form of a cat. Before I explore my ideas about elite women
imagining elite pasts in more detail, let me begin with some background.
What is the situation of Sanskrit education in contemporary India? In
its recent volume on the role of the Pandit, Alex Michaels \[spelled
phonetically\] outlines the dual education system in contemporary India
in which traditional teachers find themselves caught. The university
system, based loosely on the English model of government schools and
universities and the Pathshalas and \[unintelligible\], where Sanskrit
is taught according to traditional methods. There the Guru-shish
\[spelled phonetically\], or relationship between teacher and student is
the primary model, where teacher stands for wisdom, memory, personal and
moral guidance.

And after the publication of the report of the government of India's
Sanskrit Commission, various agencies have been implementing its
recommendations since 1970, even though the report was issued in 1958.
Despite dire predictions, in fact Sanskrit has hung on. According to one
report, almost all of the recommendations of the Sanskrit Commission
have been implemented. With 4,000 new Pathshalas funded by the
\[unintelligible\] as well as many other Vidiapitas \[spelled
phonetically\] and Sanskrit colleges all around. The study of Sanskrit
in secondary schools has also been a major priority, with more limited
success because of the other options of language study in English
regional languages; Hindi, Tamil and so on recommended by the
governments in India.

And the BJP government support for the study of Sanskrit in the '90s was
higher, of course, than previous governments, but with little
improvement in the overall system of traditional education, as India
increasingly also competed on the global stage in technology, science
and engineering; hence our very interesting dilemma today. In the
English university system, Sanskrit has become a humanity subject with,
in their view, less qualified students, or students with lesser need for
high incomes flocking to the registration desks. One crucial and
overlooked element in this dual system is that of gender. Recent
academic work is commendable indeed for keeping the study of Sanskrit
alive in the scholarly imagination, but this work has totally ignored
the role of women in a very interesting sea change in the study of
Sanskrit.

In some parts of India the dual education system is also clearly a dual
gender system. Let me be more specific. In post-colonial India, Sanskrit
has become a marker of the religiosity of Hindu women as well as men. In
certain places, if this trend continues, it will soon become entirely
the prerogative of women. With the massive entry of men into fields of
science, technology and engineering, this change has happened without
the help of secular feminism, either Indian or Western. And it will
continue without that help. My larger book project, *Grandmother
Language*, of which this paper is a part, is a study of women
Sanskritists through their personal narratives. And I'll examine in that
book their lives, their religious commitments and practices, and their
understanding of their new roles as teachers and scholars of an ancient
tradition.

Such change is only possible with an unlikely amalgam of factors.
Traditional Hindu ideologies of gender combine with a historical
emphasis on women's educational reform in states like Maharashtra to
create a unique environment for innovation. It is now possible for women
to take on new roles as caretakers of a classical language that has been
prohibited to them for millennia. Some basic facts about Maharashtra:
Sanskrit is still alive and well, with major independent research
institutes, universities offering degrees up to PhD; 33 major Sanskrit
manuscript collections. Indeed the personnel required to maintain this
tradition is extensive, and the bulk of that personnel is increasingly
comprised of women. With one retirement the University of Pune
Department of Sanskrit will consist entirely of women. The ratio of
male/female students registered for the MA in Sanskrit this present year
is 1:6.

In the Deccan College Dictionary project at Pune there are seven women
and two men on the regular research staff, Bhandarkar Oriental Research
Institute is 50 percent women, and the number of \[unintelligible\], or
women Hindu priests \-- according to one report in Maharashtra, these
women ritual specialists now outnumber their male counterparts in
certain neighborhoods in Pune. And one of my friends and colleagues in
that area who's done a major research study in Marathi on the
\[unintelligible\] or women priests say that their popularity is due to
two things: one, they don't cheat you, and two, they come on time for
the rituals.

\[laughter\]

I have completed 80 oral life narratives of women in the field of
Sanskrit literature in Maharashtra, using as my starting point the
questionnaire about family life, educational experience and visions for
the future.

Our conversations were meandering, sometimes lasting two to three hours
each and longer. They were conducted in English, my native language,
many in conversational Hindi, and some occasional short exchanges in
conversational Sanskrit. And my collaborator on this project, Maitreyi
Deshpande \[spelled phonetically\], also conducted several interviews in
Marathi, and asked clarifying questions in Marathi when my English,
Hindi or Sanskrit failed. Perhaps the story of my fieldwork sums up the
tensions in the coming years, as this dual education system unfolds. One
young woman in my study who requested not to be named was part of a team
that hired two young traditional Pundats \[spelled phonetically\] to
teach at a major Indian university.

The student wanted to get exposure to this traditional method of
learning, and the local Pathshala was happy to help. One of the young
men Pundats approached her, red faced, and asked embarrassedly whether
the young women he would be teaching could absent themselves during
their menstrual periods so he would be spared the problems of impurity
that might result. She replied \-- she's 28 \-- "Sir, perhaps I might
ask you to consider whether our respective institutions are going to be
around in 50 years. I can as much as guarantee you that my university
will be here and standing, and probably teaching Sanskrit then. However,
neither I nor you can guarantee that your Pathshala will survive that
long. Given that this is the case, I request you comply with the
university system, where no such concerns about monthly cycles apply."

\[laughter\]

What I want to focus on for the rest of today is the ways in which these
women conceive of themselves as public intellectuals who also teach
about an ancient tradition of Indian history. Let me start with the idea
of Sanskrit as a historical mother. Several of the women in my study
began by re-imagining history as that of motherhood, not just of
fatherhood. We know, as a kind of truism, of the independence movement
that Gandhi thought of the Gita as mother, and two of the older women I
interviewed mentioned this. And more significantly, several of the women
in my study over 75 years of age who were involved in the freedom
movement expressed a more expansive and universalist idea of the
Sanskrit language. As one woman described her bicycle ride across India,
collecting money for the Quit India Movement, "We chanted slokas all the
way across; slokas for Gandhiji."

A sloka is a very common type of Sanskrit verse. She goes on, "It didn't
occur to us that Sanskrit was an elite language; it was just Indian."
Three of these older women also quote the Maharashtra in
\[unintelligible\] who in some fashion argued that the one who recites
the Gita obtains the same fruit as the one who knows its meaning. To the
Gita, as a mother, there is no distinction of learned and unlearned. So
just as my mother does not distinguish between who is learned and
unlearned, neither does the Gita. There was a wonderful example of one
older woman that I interviewed whose grandmother had taught her the Gita
and had inspired her to learn Sanskrit. And I only learned at the end
that her grandmother was illiterate; some very interesting combinations.

One woman, Dr. Kala Acharya, in the prime of her career as the Director
of Sanskrit Institute, uses maternal metaphors for Sanskrit as she
speaks of helping her mother as she was dying. As she puts it, "Sanskrit
was a mother to my mother. If some difficulties come in life, mantras
will work. First when my mother was ill, I recited prayer from the Gita.
I alternated it with other prayers I knew, and then went back to the
Gita. Sanskrit was a mother to my mother as she was dying." The story of
the woman who gave me the title for my book, *Grandmother Language*, is
also instructive. She said, "Most everyone thinks of Sanskrit as a
father language, and that's how we learned it. But how can we think of
it that way? It is our grandmother; it gave birth to all other
languages. It is more like ajibash \[spelled phonetically\], a
grandmother language, but don't tell anyone I said this."

Later I did receive permission to tell people that she said this, and
indeed use it as my book title. Very many people correct me when I tell
them what my book is about: "No, no grandmother language. Sanskrit is
not grandmother, Sanskrit is grandfather, and that's how we must see it.
Mothers don't teach it." But we are finding more and more as the
generations of post-independence India are comprised of women Sanskrit
teachers that in fact mothers do teach. Many of my respondents in my
survey also perceive themselves as public intellectuals who can
contribute to public intellectual life. As we'll see in a second in our
play about Katyayani, many of these women submit poetry or plays in
Sanskrit composition context. And they are very clear that these ancient
contests are something that are being continued today, and that these
ancient public speaking contests must have involved women in public
performance.

Thus the ancient past is understood as a public past where both men and
women could gain the stage to tell stories, to compete in dialogues and
offer Sanskrit in the public square. In Pune this is called the
Paoranica debates \[spelled phonetically\], and many women go on the
weekend to see Paoranica debates and participate in them themselves. As
one woman quotes the Veda and says, "It is part of our ancient
Democratic tradition, and the Rishi said so, that we should gather on
the public square." And indeed, several of these contests are things
that particularly invite women to participate. Third and relatedly is
women's understanding of what ancient tradition called the Vedas also
tells us about ancient history. One older woman spoke of the recitation
of the Veda as a capstone to her everyday experience, and in addition,
including the Gita in her idea of the Veda. She says, "The Bhagavad Gita
can be the answer to our quest."

She did not simply mean the substance of the text of the Bhagavad Gita,
but its actual recitation in certain moments. She says the slokas of the
Gita involve the word kartavyam, what is to be done, because it gives
her a sense of duty and direction when she is unsure. She said, "When I
was growing up, the Gita was too big a text for me and I was too small
for it. But now that I understand the idea of kartavyam or duty, then I
can recite and I don't feel too small." Here again we see that her own
experience reciting these Gita verses had both social and personal
benefits, and could act as a kind of commentary on a situation; both her
own situation as well as that of her family's and society's.

And here I want to invoke the work of anthropologist Charles Briggs, who
speaks about the invocation of sacred scripture in a common, everyday
context as something that entirely changes the context once you recite
it. And suddenly the world around you, once it is uttered, has a kind of
wonderful patina of the sacred. And he does this study of Miztec culture
in a New Mexico town, but I think that this idea of sacred text and the
utterance of sacred text as creating a world as soon as you do it even
in an everyday situation is very, very important. I argue in my
introduction to my new translation of the Gita, coming out with Penguin,
that the Gita is a proverbial text as much as it is a sacred text.

Indeed, many of the women I talk about also recite small little
aphorisms as well as mantras for protection like the Ram Raksha in many
interesting situations like in the delivery room of the Bombay Hospital,
and in the kitchen. And so part of my argument here is that the domestic
placement of Sanskrit puts this ancient holy language in an entirely new
medium. And one of my most wonderful memories of my field experience was
being with a mother/daughter pair of Sanskrit teachers, and the younger
daughter had just become a new mother and had brought her baby home. And
they were speaking in Sanskrit about, "The baby is crying, you go take
care of her," "No, you go take care of her," and it was a totally
different experience than anything we understand about Sanskrit in the
West. Another very senior woman, the one who rode the bicycle ride
across India, used a Sanskrit mantra to get over the grief of her
husband after he died.

She says, "Even the use of the verb tenses in ancient Sanskrit express
something that is about to happen in the immediate future, and this
means that the Sanskrit is a kind of hope for me that something is about
to happen. But the one that I recite mostly is a twilight mantra; that
is to say that it has helped me in the twilight of my life to make it
through my sunset period." This woman was able to understand the
technical term called sandya basha, which literally means "twilight
language" in Sanskrit, but she also \-- it's an esoteric language,
difficult to be seen; that's the reason why it has its term. But she
also applied the term twilight to the twilight of her life. So for these
women, recitation in everyday context brings the ancient world into the
present; in delivery rooms, in kitchens, in bedrooms, in sick rooms. And
what's interesting about this as well is the way in which we think about
the tradition as choosing these women, rather than as them choosing the
tradition.

One of the women in my study, Asha Gurjar, wrote several plays, and
that's what I'd like to spend the rest of my time speaking about today.
Her office was filled with sun and light and piles of papers which had
clearly been untouched for decades. And when she told me about her
plays, I asked her to show me some and she couldn't find them. She
looked everywhere; it was clear that she did not value her own
intellectual production the way I did. And when I finally got her to
find them, I went out and had them bound for her so that she could honor
her own work. One of her first plays is about a colleague whose name is
left off of a title page of a dictionary project \-- clearly it was
autobiographical \-- and what kind of academic mayhem ensues when
someone is not given credit for something. It was a Sanskrit satire.

The second play is the play about Katyayani's complaint. And this is a
re-reading of the basic passage in the Upanishads. As the well-known
story goes, Yajnavalkya had two wives, Maitreyi and Katyayani. Of the
two, Maitreyi was the woman who took part in theological discussions.
And one day as Yajnavalkya was preparing to undertake a different mode
of life, he said to Maitreyi, "I'm about to go away, so come let me make
a settlement between you and Katyayani, my other wife."

And Maitreyi says, "No, I want to possess your wisdom; I don't want to
possess your worldly goods." And Yajnavalkya said, "Wisdom is the only
thing that will make you immortal, but in fact, wealth will not. And
you've always been my favorite wife, and so therefore I will teach you
about Brahman; Brahman, that beautiful, wonderful force that inspires
the entire universe and how our individual souls, atman, are connected
to Brahman."

And he goes on to a long discourse about Brahman with Maitreyi, while
poor Katyayani is looking on. In the traditional Upanishadic narrative,
Katyayani is forever banned from this discourse; she remains the
opposite of all that Maitreyi thinks about with her husband. It is even
more ironic that the metaphor for thinking about Brahman, the all
inspiring and all creative force, is the family itself in Yajnavalkya's
discourse. He says, "You should not think about loving the wife because
one loves a wife, or loving the husband because one loves a husband; you
should think about loving as a part of Brahman."

So Katyayani stands doubly removed as they speak about the family and
exclude her at the same time. She only appears again at the end of the
Upanishad as the mother of a great lineage of sages, but that is all we
know. In the 20th century hands of Asha Gurjar, my friend in the study,
we see another theme emerge. Here Katyayani makes a dialogue, and there
is, as Asha Gurjar writes, a great speech between Katyayani and Maitreyi
where Katyayani challenges Maitreyi as to the better form of wisdom.
\[Hindi?\] "How does wisdom grow?" asked Katyayani. And Maitreyi begins
by explaining kind of condescendingly about Brahman and atman and all
those wonderful things. Katyayani interrupts her discourse, which sounds
an awful lot like her husband's, to say \[Hindi?\] from pots and pans
\[Hindi\], wisdom grows \-- \[Hindi\] \-- from the mud.

Maitreyi thinks at first that Katyayani is just saying lots of other
places where Brahman could be found, and praises her. But then Katyayani
responds, \[Hindi\], "You don\'t understand my intention." And she goes
on to argue that there\'s a difference between contemplating Brahman and
supporting those who contemplate Brahman. \[Hindi\]; "I cause you to
grow and prosper," says Katyayani to Maitreyi. \[Hindi\]; "You don\'t
grow by yourself." Then they enter into a long debate where Katyayani
challenges Maitreyi by describing every piece of household work that she
performs. And Maitreyi attempts to make it into a teaching of some kind,
with Katyayani roundly rejecting all of it as she did in the example I
gave you above. In the end Maitreyi must admit defeat, and asks to bring
firewood and place it at Katyayani's feet.

This is the Upanishadic sign of someone who has been defeated in a
verbal contest. This gesture is all the more significant; it is also the
act of household maintenance, something that Katyayani has been doing
the whole time, and the thing that she is pressing Maitreyi to remember
in the first place. I will avoid the tempting comparisons to the Mary
and Martha story in the New Testament and instead remark on several
interesting ideas that Asha has conceptualized for us. When we spoke
about the play, Asha told me she was interested in creating a situation
that we know must have existed, but only have beeges \[spelled
phonetically\], or seeds about. "These beeges," she said, "were clues
for us to pick up on as interpreters. Veda is filled with these little
signs for us," she says. Notice here that Asha does not assume the
traditional feminist way of interpreting, whereby one is recovering
something that is forgotten by men and repressed by the tradition.

Rather, she is assuming that the hint is a seed, and that the small
mention of Katyayani in the Upanishads is an invitation for Asha herself
to imagine; an intentional invitation from the Veda itself. She says,
"The Veda invited me to do this." The texts of the ancient world, then,
have intentions. In addition, Asha assumes as an interpreter that daily
realities pertain to the ancient world as much as they do to today. She
goes on to say that "Sapatni or sahapatni, the co-wife situation which
is also the Sanskrit term for any rivalry, is something that we still
see today. Even if we are not in that situation," she says, "we are
still in many situations of rivalry. \[Hindi\]," she says, and laughs;
"the situation of rivalry. So we might as well use the ancient world to
help us today. Don\'t forget," she says, "Sanskrit is a personality
development program."

\[laughter\]

Asha\'s way of thinking of history involves traditional views of
Sanskrit, but made into a contemporary mode of exegesis. It does not
involve the recovery of women\'s voices, but even without the explicit
agenda of the recovery of women\'s voices, we still are thinking and
recovering women\'s voices. And the same could be said of my final case,
Devi-ti \[spelled phonetically\], the oldest living disciple of Upasani
Baba, the founder of Kanyakumari Ashram in Sakori, Maharashtra. Upasani
Baba was a disciple of Shirdi Sai Baba, and he frequently dressed as a
woman and taught that women and shudras were the most Dharmic of all
beings; the most appropriately sacred in some ways in their conduct, of
all beings, because they abandoned social prestige and gave up worldly
comforts by virtue of their status. Very interesting re-read on what it
means to abandon status and become Dharmic; women and shudras are the
most Dharmic.

This is the ashram that has, since the 1930s, trained women priests; the
Sri Poruhi \[spelled phonetically\] priests I mentioned above. They have
taken off in recent decades. Devi-ti wears a bright saffron sari, and is
filled with lore about the beginnings of the ashram. When I asked her
how they made their arguments, which at the beginning did include legal
battles \-- she doesn\'t speak of legal tactics, and she does not speak
of the rights of women. Rather, she started to recite. "\[Hindi\]," she
said, in response to my question, in a low monotone. When she was
finished, she said "I have composed an anu krama ni \[spelled
phonetically\]." An anu krama ni is based on the Sanskrit word krama, or
order, or following order, literally.

And what Devi-ti did was to take the women Rishis, and the names of the
women Rishis \-- \[Hindi\] \-- and so on, and create a chant out of
their names. "The women who speak Veda, they must have an anu karma ni,"
she says; "a mala or garland of sound, same as all the others." And this
was her argument, or her response to me. How she made the argument was
to create a sacred text, a chanted text which would place the names of
the women Rishis in the same status as others. And the ancient texts,
the arsha nu krama ni \[spelled phonetically\] of course includes these
women\'s names, but does not feature them. Therefore, she took an
ancient form of indexing the Veda as the argument for women priests in
contemporary world. Notice here, too, there is an absence of a feminist
style of exegesis, but at the same time a recovery of those women\'s
voices.

So, what do these women\'s views of their own ancient world have to do
with patronage and power, the theme of this wonderful conference? First,
as women emerged as caretakers of a tradition usually prohibited to
them, I have discovered that they must think of themselves as part of
that tradition; not as oppositional or resistant, but continuous with
the tradition. And an idea of continuity is for them a way of claiming
power. It cannot be about the powerlessness of women in the past for
them, but the sense that they were always there to be understood as
powerful; not excluded, but rather in potentia. They are not forgotten
women, but women waiting to be discovered; women in waiting.

Traditional forms such as Devi-ti\'s, or the woman who recited the Rig
Veda as her twilight language in the twilight of her life also
understand tradition this way. And perhaps Asha\'s story of Katyayani is
the best example of this. We here, and even in secular India could
easily and mistakenly view these ideas as resistant discourse, even
Marxist discourse, about the empowerment of women. But for Asha Gurjar,
Katyayani's speech is a new spiritual insight which just took a few
thousand years to come to fruition. Empowered women, the Sanskritists
would say, are not claiming the tradition, but rather, now that these
women Sanskritists have the wisdom, they are at last and in good time
letting the tradition, their mother, claim them. Thank you very much.

\[applause\]

Rachel McDermott:

We have about 10 minutes for questions, and Laurie, I\'d like to ask you
to receive your own questions although it\'s a little bit hard to see.

Laurie Patton:

Raise your hand high, high \-- there\'s a high person.

Female Speaker:

\[Inaudible\] about the content, the content of the Vedas that they now
have the wisdom of, particularly about women.

Laurie Patton:

They have much more to say about the content of Manu than they do about
the content of the Vedas, A, because Manu is a legal text that is really
made famous, more famous than another legal text which was more
traditionally used; the Yajnavalkya Smriti is far more used by British
colonialists, and then by Indologists and so on. And there what\'s
interesting is that while many folks who are motivated by a very
specific feminist hermeneutic want to analyze the modes of oppression
\-- so they\'ll focus on Chapter two and not Chapter nine of Manu, or
Chapter nine insofar as it kind of contradicts Chapter two, and so on.
Even with the Veda there are times when women simply accept that that\'s
the way it is. And, well, there are two very interesting corollaries to
that; first of all, whether women know the content of the Veda at all is
entirely regional. So in Maharashtra, where most of the women in my
study were, they know the content of the Veda. And it\'s very matter of
fact; "Yes, this is the way women are understood."

And there are all these other counter examples, and it\'s our job as
women to be in continuous tradition with those counter examples. My
favorite story is Sero Jepate \[spelled phonetically\], the first woman
who recited publicly Veda in 1961, the year I was born; I was very happy
about that. And what\'s interesting about her story is it was in a
Pathshala which has since become more university-like. And she got up,
and she \-- it was a Sanskrit recitation contest ,and everyone knew from
the meter that she had chosen, what she was reciting; that she was about
to recite Veda. And many people murmured, and there was kind of a
little, small uproar from the crowd. And her teacher got up and said,
"Anyone who would like to leave, they may. Anyone who would like to
stay, they may."

So some people left and some people stayed, and that was that. That was
the first instance. And I said, "What did you do after that?" And she
said, "I got on the bus and I went home." And it\'s very matter of fact
in a certain way. So, they are the women who know the content of the
Vedas. And Chennai women are still not allowed even to study Mimasa
\[spelled phonetically\]; it\'s a radical act to study interpretive
traditions about the Veda, so only one or two women are doing that. So I
would say there\'s really not an interest in analyzing modes of
oppression the way that a Western or even secular feminist Indian
scholar would do. There\'s a real interest in placing oneself as
continuous, because that\'s the thing that will give them authority as
Sanskritists, and nothing else. Yes?

Colonel Datar:

Colonel Datar from Foreign Policy Association, and I'm from India.
According to Ayurveda, it prevents women doing yoga. Why?

Laurie Patton:

It\'s a wonderful question. I\'ve heard two answers to that question;
the first is that yoga will interfere with their menstrual cycle, and
therefore with the reproductive possibilities. The second is that \--
the same reason is given as what the Buddha gave when he originally
argued with his disciple about whether women should be taught the Dharma
or the teachings of the Buddha, and that is that they will be in public
places, and it will be more dangerous for them.

Those are the traditional answers. And again, just back to this earlier
question, you know, there are so many women who now teach and write
yoga; not just in the way that we think about in the United States, but
in very traditional ways they write and teach in Sanskrit and the
Sanskrit texts. One of the women in my study was a yoga teacher as well
as an expert in the Yoga Shastrit tradition. And it\'s very interesting
there, because her understanding of it is that it\'s a kind of argument
that is called calli varja \[spelled phonetically\]; that what is
necessary for the calli age, what is necessary for this age is very
different than what is necessary for the age when Ayurveda was composed.

Colonel Datar:

There was dual credit given to the differentiation between a man and a
woman. So why is it that most of the instructors in India itself are
women, of yoga?

Laurie Patton:

Yes. I think that\'s very much a recent phenomenon which is very similar
to the kind of phenomenon that I\'m talking about here; that we can
argue for \-- there\'s a wonderful scholar in America named Probert who
talks about pink collarization of a tradition. And because this
conference was not about that particular aspect of my work, I will
mention it here; that with the role of technology and science becoming
so important for India in a post-liberalization economy from the early
'90s, there is simply no money in these kinds of local teaching. Of
course there\'s money in the big schools, and so on.

And so as a result, women see it as part of their dharma because they
don\'t need the salary. And this was over and over again I heard this;
either as yoga teachers, yoga experts or Sanskritists in general. The
average salary, insofar as it came up in my study was about \$100 a
month for these brilliant researchers doing this amazing work, in Jayan
material that had never been translated, archival material and so on. So
I think it\'s very much a function of present day post-liberalization
economics that began after independence.

Male Speaker:

Where did you find the most Sanskrit-speaking women in India? I think
you mentioned Maharashtra and Chennai, but where else?

Laurie Patton:

Yes. I went all over, and it was such an incredible privilege to do this
because once you start with the women\'s network of Sanskritists, it\'s
just overwhelming. And I could do at least 100 more interviews. My main
cities concentrated in Pune and Bombay and Sangamner and Aurangabad and
Maharashtra; very different kinds of communities. And Sangamner in
particular is a rural community, and there you have women Sanskritists
defending and speaking about the role of Sanskrit even in rural
populations. And as a comparative base I went to Bangalore, Chennai,
Delhi and Calcutta and Nagpur. And what\'s interesting about all of
these different places is that the role of Sanskrit and the caste
connection as well as the gender connections are absolutely regionally
based.

So the most women Sanskritists are probably in both Chennai and Pune.
The reasons for that have to do with several different things. I think,
Calcutta being a sort of close second there\'s, that there are
traditions of educational reform for women in each of those cities which
are very, very strong, and have to do with local leading intellectuals
who also became well-known figures in India more nationally. Pule, for
instance, is an example. And so in Chennai, what\'s very different about
it is \-- most of the women Sanskritists in Pune are Brahmin women \--
not all, but most \-- who can also recite the Veda. So, there you have a
maintenance of a certain caste idea of Sanskrit and what its role is.
Whereas in Chennai, because there\'s been so much push against caste
hierarchy, all of the women who graduated from Queen Mary College in
2002 were either OCBC or SC women; they were all non-Brahmin women.

And the interesting thing there, as I mentioned to this question
earlier, is that women there are not really allowed still to recite the
Veda. And Mysore is another city that I went to. So what also interested
me is the way in which the relationship between the university and
Pathshala also had some very interesting implications for whether women
could recite or not, and how many women Sanskritists there were. So even
though there were as many in Chennai as there were in Pune \-- and it
was quite funny, because when I went it was clear that they wanted to
compete with Pune and say "No, no, we\'re going to have as many as \--
you must write your book focused on Chennai" \-- that there only one
person who was studying Veda \-- only one woman was studying Veda, and
she did so because her family didn\'t allow her to get degrees.

And every time she got a degree, her uncle would burn it. And so she got
another one. And so she became this highly educated woman in this
competition with her uncle about whether she would get degrees. And so
when I asked, I said, "You know, studying the Veda is kind of
controversial. You sure you want to do that? Why did you choose that?"
She said, "Because they said no."

\[laughter\]

You know, it was that straightforward. So, I\'m sorry, it\'s a very
wonderful question. I could go on and on, but that gives you an idea. I
think I need to stop.

\[applause\]

Rachel McDermott:

Thank you, Laurie, so much for coming and sharing your book project with
us. And we\'re going to miss you for the rest of the day. I\'d like now
to introduce Nancy Martin from Chapman University, who is an expert on
the figure of Mirabai. And her paper is tantalizingly entitled just
Mirabai, no subtitle. So, please welcome Nancy Martin.

\[applause\]

Nancy Martin:

First I want to add my thanks to those that have already been expressed
today for those who have organized this wonderful program, and for the
privilege of being here with you. In the interest of keeping us on time,
I\'m going to try to shorten my presentation as I do it, which is always
a little bit dangerous. But I\'m going to mention a number of things
about Mirabai, so if something catches your attention, I want to be sure
and leave time for questions so that we can pursue those lines of
interest.

And my title actually was a little bit longer, but it didn\'t make it
into the program. So the title of the presentation is "The Leela of
Mirabai: Validating Women\'s Religious Authority." Just going to switch
glasses here a minute to make sure that I can read clearly.

"Lord, make me your servant. Your servant I remain. I plant a garden,
carefully choosing buds to offer. Everyday I rise. Our eyes meet. I
adorn your feet with garlands. Your every need I attend, staying with
you in the forest, the servant of your feet. Pay me the wages of your
name, Lord, cutting the noose of rebirth. I become a shadow. No word
escapes my lips. I neither come nor go, wearing only he who clothes all.
What he gives is what I get. My eyelids for a broom I sweep the path and
lay down my heart in the groves, the lanes, the forest. Mad for love I
sing, "govind \[spelled phonetically\], govind." The Yogi came to
practice yoga, the ascetic to give wisdom on the shore. To repeat the
Lord\'s name the Sadu came, Mira, to sing songs of love. Peacock crown,
yellow silk, jeweled garland at your neck. Come and meet me now in
Vrindavan, oh enchanting flute player.

He who lives in the heart is Mira's. Why are my eyes still restless? At
midnight, Lord, my destiny awaits; to see you on love's shore. A
beautiful woman, her face aglow, told her guru in a tear choked voice,
of a vision she had just experienced. In her vision, Mirabai sang this
song in a hauntingly beautiful voice. Mira\'s guru wept as he heard her
sing, but a gluttonous Sadu criticized her emotionalism, insisting that
knowledge and austerities were essential for finding and serving God; a
pursuit accessible only to men, in any case. Invited to a gathering of
holy men for further discussion, Mira\'s guru declined to go, saying he
no longer walked the road of liberation through knowledge and had turned
to Mira\'s path of devotion."

This visionary woman, Indira Devi, the principle disciple of Dilip Kumar
Roy, who recounted this song and this story, was surrounded by
spellbound devotees in the Hare Krishna Mandir in Pune, Maharashtra. Her
voice strained with emotion, she reported that after this Krishna
himself appeared to her, and she fell to her Lord\'s feet. As she spoke,
the sweet fragrance of sandalwood filled the air. And when she finished
her account, she touched each devotee, transmitting the holy perfume.
Indira Devi often encountered Mira when, as her own guru sang, she
slipped into trance. She would return from such encounters singing songs
and reporting Mira's teachings, and details of her life. Mira had been
coming to her for 17 years at the time of this vision in 1966. And 30
years later, in 1996, when I asked her if she still met Mira in this
way, she answered with a sparkle in her eye, "Do you think I would tell
you if I did?" But then she did. Mira still appeared to her, although
with much less frequency particularly after her guru passed away, and
usually in a time of need. She died a year later.

Who is this saint that came to play such an important role in her life?
Many of you undoubtedly already know this beloved 16th century bhakti
woman devoted to Krishna well. But what Mira do you know? The Mira
brought to life by Subbulakshmi, in audio recordings of Mira's songs and
in her classic portrayal of Mira on film? Or perhaps you know the
Mirabai of Golzar\'s 1979 cinematic depiction; at once a glamorous
princess, and other-worldly saint. Or is it the swooning Mira of the
Amar Chitric Qatar \[spelled phonetically\] comic book series, who has
the full support of her husband and takes her cues always from a man,
whether human or divine, husband or saint?

Or the Mira found in Rajasthani historical chronicles, or Hindi
literature or world literature texts; a good wife who turns to devotion
only after the loss of her husband and others dear to her? Perhaps it is
the Mira of devotional hagiographies, or of the religious dramas of her
life performed during \[unintelligible\] in Vrindavan that you know. Or
the Mira of romantic urban dance dramas, or alternately of village folk
dramas; the lover, hopelessly in love with the inappropriate man, though
in her particular case he is divine.

Or is it Gandhi\'s Mira; the epitome of nonviolent devotion who endures
the violence directed against her with courage and dignity, and in the
end converts her husband and wins him over? Or is it the Mira your
mother or grandmother sang in the early hours of the morning as she
engaged in routine domestic chores; a saint, singing out of her great
love and longing, as many Hindi scholars report in their texts? Or is it
the Mira of Rajasthani oral traditions; a woman who must negotiate
complex power relations and multiple types of coercion, and who
willingly embraces the simple life and the social ostracism that marked
the lives of members of the lowest castes?

Perhaps you or a woman you know has been called by her name, in
admiration of your artistic talents or your deep religiosity or your
independent spirit, or theirs. Or even with a bit of sarcasm, referring
to an untoward rebelliousness, or an unacceptable disregard for familial
or social expectation. Mirabai is extremely popular. But who was she,
and how can we understand her role in the lives of Indira Devi and other
women? Not only could she, but does she in any way empower and validate
the religious authority of women today? I will argue that she does. But
first we must look at Mirabai herself. Who was she, and who decides?

The attempt to reconstruct a historical biography, while a laudable
goal, yields only very limited results. And those who claim to be
writing the historical \"truth\" about Mira, such as Munchi Devi Prasad
\[spelled phonetically\] in the final years of the 19^th^ century,
necessarily begin with the hagiographic events in her life, rather than
historical sources. I see no reason to question that a woman named Mira
did indeed live in the 15th or 16th century in Rajasthan. But we do not
have sufficient historical sources to say much more about her with any
absolute certainty; not even when she was born, or died, or whom she was
married to.

Our first references to her come to us instead through the hagiographic
literature of the bhakti community. There is no pretense of historical
objectivity in these devotional texts. What we find instead is a
celebration of Mirabai, the saint. In Nabadas's Baktamal \[spelled
phonetically\], about 1600 for example, Mira is depicted as a defiant
woman who is the embodiment of love itself; fearless, unashamed and
without restraint, caring nothing for worldly notions of honor and
shame, and demonstrating the same love the cowherding gopi women showed
to Krishna when he roamed the forests of Braj. When Priadas \[spelled
phonetically\] adds his commentary to Nabadas's terse poetic description
in 1712, a fuller portrait of Mira emerges.

She\'s the daughter of the Ranthor house of Merta, in the kingdom of
Marwar in western Rajasthan, married against her will to the Prince of
Mewar in southern Rajasthan. She\'s devoted to Krishna from childhood,
and sees herself as married only to him. She quickly angers her new
in-laws by refusing to honor the family goddess or her husband, so newly
married, because she is devoted to none but Krishna. They seek to
isolate her, a move which backfires because she sees this as an
opportunity to freely practice her devotion and to associate with holy
men, bringing further shame to her marital family.

Her sister-in-law tries to talk her out of this behavior, but when she
fails, then her in-laws begin to think of a more permanent solution to
their problem. The Rana, the ruler of Mewar, sends her poison. She
drinks it, but she is not only unharmed, but radiant. He sends a spy to
find out when she\'s in the company of holy men, when a report comes
that she\'s laughing and talking with a lover in her private chambers.
The Rana comes running, his sword drawn, ready to do her in. But
there\'s no one there; only Mira and her image of Krishna. She
innocently invites the Rana to enter the presence of her Lord. The Rana
is frozen in his tracks, and then slowly backs away, bewildered and
ashamed.

Priadas then tells us of three encounters Mira has with men outside the
family. In the first, a lustful so-called Sadu tells her that Krishna
has ordered her to make love to him. She agrees readily, asks him to
have a meal, and then sets up a beautiful bed in the company of
devotees, and then invites him shamelessly to do as Krishna has
commanded. He of course is completely disarmed. He begs her forgiveness
and becomes her devotee. In the second encounter, the Emperor Akbar
greatly admires this beautiful woman so in love with her Lord, and so he
and Tansin \[spelled phonetically\] come. Priadas is not entirely clear
whether they come to see Mira or Krishna, but other tellings suggest
that he comes in disguise to meet Mira, and in some case gives her a
gift either for herself or for her Lord.

In a third incident related by Priadas, Mira goes to Krishna's holy city
of Vrindavan, where she meets Jiva Goswami. Priadas merely says that the
holy man gave up his vow not to converse with women in order to meet
her. Other sources suggest that he refused to meet her, and she sent
back a reply thanking him. She\'d learned something new; she had thought
that there was only one man in Vrindavan, and that all souls were as
women in his presence. But now she\'d learned that there were actually
two. He was immediately chagrined, of course, and agreed to meet her.
Such test encounters are a standard part of the hagiographies of women
devotional saints, as A.K. Ramanujan has pointed out, where women must
overcome the assumption of male gurus about women, and prove their
spiritual knowledge.

Priadas, belonging to the same Sampradaya as Jiva Goswami, may not have
been inclined to describe the encounter in this way, but it may also be
from a later or alternate strand of tradition. Finally, Mira goes to
Dwarka to settle, even as Krishna did after his youthful escapades in
Vrindavan. But Priadas tells us that the Rana had a change of heart, and
sent a delegation of Brahmins to bring her back. She refuses; they tell
her they will fast to the death if she does not come with them. Not
wanting to be complicit in their deaths, she asks only to be able to say
goodbye to Krishna.

She goes to the temple and is drawn into the image of Krishna. He takes
her to him, and when they come into the temple she is gone. As Priadas
tells her story, her divine beloved stands in stark contrast to human
men; the cruel and uncompromising Rana, the lustful and unholy Sadu, and
the religious teacher who views women as religiously inferior and an
impediment to the religious life. Akbar\'s case is slightly different.
He appears here as a patron rather than one who tests her. In the
hagiographies of male saints he often tests them, but here and in the
biographies of other women saints and their encounters with rulers he
takes the role as a patron. Though in some accounts of Mira's life, this
is a further excuse to kill her. They try other ways to kill her; a
snake in a basket, a scorpion, toe rings, a lion who is ravenous but
lays down quietly before her when she worships him as Nara Simha.

There\'s also another tradition, in a text dating to the same period of
Priadas, from the Punjab region, that suggests that Mira's guru is
Ravidas, the chamkar, and this too is sometimes a reason for her
persecution. Again, these are hagiographic accounts; we take them as
that. And there are others and other expansions on this. In some
subsequent accounts \-- I\'m going to recount just one to you from the
18th or 19^th^ century \-- we see the developing of this tradition, such
that Mira's life story becomes a language to talk about other things,
not only about the saint. One example comes from Mira Reparchi of
Suksaran \[spelled phonetically\], a Rajasthani text, 18^th^, 19^th^
century; the dating is difficult on these. This type of text, parchi, is
both an introduction to the saint and often a story about miracles
associated with the saint. And they often have a didactic character, as
when Kalawert \[spelled phonetically\] has suggested calling them texts
of subtle indoctrination.

Speaking about the works of Anuntadas \[spelled phonetically\], he
reports that while these hagiographies must have brought about sincere
feelings of devotion in devotees, one has the impression that the saint
is less important than the sermon the author wants to give with each
story told. And this is also the case with the story that Suksaran
tells. I\'m just going to abbreviate this quickly; the story has to do
with Mira's life, of course. It begins with her past life, setting her
in the context of Vrindavan as a Brahmin woman who is among the Brahmin
women who go to give food to Krishna and his companions after the
Brahmin men refuse to do so. She is a woman whose husband finds out what
they\'re doing and ties her to a chair and refuses to allow her to go.
She leaves her body and shows up. Krishna eventually sends all of the
women back.

She asks, "Please don\'t make me go back to this guy." But Krishna says,
"Yes, you need to go back. But you will meet me in another life." And
she\'s reborn as Mirabai. The tale that he then goes on to tell is a
tale which is full of miracles associated with Mira; she\'s clearly
extraordinary. And at each point in the tale, her behavior is contrasted
with the behavior of ordinary women. And it\'s very clear that she is an
exception; that bhakti is a great thing, but not the example to be
followed. And indeed, there\'s a considerable discussion about how one
can bring together bhakti and the domestic life quite easily. And
Suksaran even goes so far as to tell women that even if their husbands
are abusive, as this Brahmin woman who becomes Mira's husband was, they
should go back to them. He also, to give him credit, says that men
should not beat their wives, and this brings down the men to do such
things. But the message is clear; Mira's voice becomes one that
supports, basically, the status quo.

Okay. Let me jump ahead to where I was here. Okay. Coming back into my
written text. Clearly Mira is recognized, herself, as having religious
authority, and so Suksaran draws on that authority to support his
message. At the same time he makes a case for her exceptionalism, in
order to be able to simultaneously draw on her power, but undercut
imitation of her by other women. Thus, this extraordinary woman\'s
behavior appears not to empower women, but to help them to adjust; to
endure as she did, and to remain devoted. Others, too, have sought to
draw on the love which people have for Mira, and on her authority to
validate other agendas. Nationalists in Bengal drew on her as an example
of courageous Indian women.

In Rajasthan, as the Rajputs began to take note of this and also to
reaffirm and retell their own history, they also sought to reclaim Mira.
Some have argued that they repressed her story because she didn\'t
behave as a good Rajput woman should. The evidence of that, again, is
not strong enough for us to know that definitively, but certainly we
know that when they began to reconstruct their history, they also began
to write histories of Mirabai, but again, on very shaky grounds. But the
stories they write show Mira as a good Rajput wife who has the support
of her husband through the entire thing. She only turns to serious
devotion after his death. Her mother also dies when she\'s young, and
she\'s raised by her grandfather, so this explains why she doesn\'t
behave properly as a woman should. And the stories they tell are based
on the same narrative structure as the stories of heroines like the Rani
of Jhansi.

Okay. Her story is compelling; it\'s a tale of romance, of suffering, of
triumph in the face of terrible oppression, and of unshakable
conviction. And many people can identify with different aspects of her
story. No single telling of her story emerges that can supersede the
others, although the nationalists and Rajasthan historians, and later
Hindi literature specialists who really wanted her to be a good woman
tried very hard to get their version out. But they have not been able to
do so, because the power of her character lies to a significant degree
in her overcoming opposition. Attempts to make her behavior less
objectionable, to lessen the opposition she faces, and to decrease the
suffering she endures cannot eradicate other possible, more challenging
tellings; tellings with the potential to call into question gender and
caste norms, and high caste religious authority. This is also part of
her power.

We can see this power in the way in which low caste communities in
Rajasthan have appropriated her also. They sing her songs. The songs
they sing in her name are songs \--for example, one in which she rejects
everything the Rana has. She rejects his palace, fine clothes, good
food, jewelry, everything, and instead embraces living in a simple hut,
wearing simple clothes, eating simple food, walking on foot. She stands
in solidarity with these same low caste people. She endures the same
kind of oppression that they endure, particularly in the stories which
tell of what happens when her husband finds out she has Raidas \[spelled
phonetically\] as her guru. And she becomes one of their community, in a
sense. She also affirms a different value system; one based on our
common humanity as created by a divine master potter, and based on our
religious authority.

Okay. She doesn\'t directly challenge the structures of oppression \--
in this case, in a call for revolution. Instead she seems to stand in
solidarity with these low caste people, sharing their poverty and
oppression and standing with them to claim dignity from a position of
subordination. Some have argued, as a result of this kind of language
and also her use of the language of marriage, simply transposing it but
keeping the differential in power relations, she transposes it into the
human divine realm. Some have argued that she\'s not a good model,
particularly for women. In her careful analysis of the use of the
language of subordination within the poetry attributed to Mira, Kumkum
Sangari has made the following insightful comments about the inherent
danger of Mirabai as an example for women that might equally apply to
these low caste people.

She says, "Mirabai's bhakti is contradictory. It protests and assists in
its appropriations, has both a radicalizing potential and compensatory
character; a product of social change aspiring to level certain forms of
inequality. It also participates in making a vocabulary, and structures
of feelings which can compensate for the absence of those desired
freedoms. It traverses the perilous path of Brahminical injunction,
salvation schemes and feudal relations in medieval Rajasthan; negotiates
the webbed terrain of oral traditions and of overlapping patriarchies,
but neither finds nor creates an unsullied space. Her bhakti is
eternally poised to lose the ground it sets out to gain. For us,"
Sangari says, "Mirabai represents a struggle, not a victory."

I would agree with her that Mirabai does not find or create a space for
either low caste people or for women, which is unsullied. Real people
live in this sullied space of the world, which is marked by inequality,
suffering, coercion and the absence of complete freedom. Sita's role as
a model similarly might be questioned, but Maru Kishvar's \[spelled
phonetically\] ethnographic work leads her to affirm Sita as an
empowering force for women. I would argue that Mira, too, can empower
women, even while identification with her can also bring consolation.
Her life story opens up a real space for women\'s leadership, offering a
template particularly for high caste women. And her name becomes
synonymous, indeed, with women\'s religious authority. Ample examples
could be cited of women in later centuries and today who are called by a
variation of Mira's name precisely because they demonstrate the
intellectual ability and religious insight to speak up in this men\'s
realm, in equal terms. And there are many examples of this; Ann Gold
\[spelled phonetically\] gives a particularly good one.

Mira's power comes because she is real, in my estimation; because she
lives in that same world of suffering and struggle. And yet she does in
many ways triumph, and this is an important part of how people actually
appropriate her. And we can discuss whether she\'s a good model or not,
but the fact is women do draw on Mira; they do turn to her. And her
power lies not simply in people calling someone Mira or Mirabai because
she is in fact able to speak with religious authority; it\'s much deeper
than this. Her life and voice have facilitated the development and
validation of religious authority of some particular women in radical
ways which transcend mere struggle. These women come into their own as
religious leaders through a much more complex interaction with the saint
in society, so that both they and the wider society come to interpret
and accept their life choices and authority in terms of Mira.

In my forthcoming book on Mira, I\'ve written about a number of these
women who demonstrate this. The poet Mahadevi Varma is a nonreligious
example, for she was called a modern Mira by those who admired her. But
they also used Mira as an interpretive category to make sense of this
woman. She was unmarried, independent; a celebrated poet with a strong
commitment to a simple, Gandhian life style. She moved in the literary
world of men. Varma herself also drew on Mira's example for inspiration,
and used this identification and encouraged this association to draw on
her authority and to find acceptance for her choices in life. There are
other women who have become religious leaders in their own right, and
found acceptance, though sometimes after considerable familial
opposition including attempted exorcisms, and this kind of thing. They
came into their own right as religious leaders, and found this
acceptance through an identification with Mirabai.

Some, like the Rajput woman called Miraji from Mewar, composed in Mira's
name, refused to marry, and in Miraji's case, she established an ashram
on the outskirts of Vrindavan. She did so with her guru, a Nimbarka
Sampradi Sadu \[spelled phonetically\], who subsequently embraced
Sakibav \[spelled phonetically\]. So she is the Sadu, and he is the
woman in a sense. Others, like the woman called Mira Mataji, who also
now resides in Vrindavan but is originally from Utar Pradesh \[spelled
phonetically\] \-- she left her husband and her child. She's established
a small community of women disciples, all spaced about 10 years apart,
so a community that will continue after her death. Her followers have
built \[unintelligible\] across three states, where women can come to
worship and stay. And she, too composes Mira-like songs performed in
these places, some of which mention Mira specifically.

There are others as well. They are all upper caste so far; Rajput and
Brahmin. I have met some lower caste women leaders like this; they
don\'t seem to draw on Mira. But all these women have drawn on Mira to
construct an alternate identity. Many of them went through a crisis in
adolescence, didn\'t know what was happening, came out of that crisis
looking to Mira, finding consolation in Mira's words, beginning to
compose in Mira's language; finding their own voice through her voice.
Their life stories are told, comparing them to Mira. In the case of Mira
Mataji's community, they created their own Leela of Mira, in which Mira
does not encounter Krishna in the everyday reality, but in her periods
of medication and Samadhi. I can tell you more about these women if you
would like to ask in the question session.

Indira Devi is a more extreme case because she met Mirabai in these
trance experiences. She learned about Mirabai's life, sometimes with
Mira telling her, sometimes observing it, and the same thing with the
songs; sometimes she heard them, and then she began also to write down
songs in which her identity and Mira's seemed to merge. The songs were
referred to as her Mira budgeons \[spelled phonetically\]. She always
considered herself separate from Mira; she says, "Isn\'t being Indira
enough?" But on the other hand, she spoke out of the vision, sometimes
in the first person, and then sometimes she is watching Mira, and then
Mira is watching the gopis in India. So there\'s a continuum between
Indira Devi\'s identity and other devotees' identity \-- I would argue
Mira's identity, and then the identity of the gopis.

Mira becomes a kind of bridge; you can identify with her more. But
people enter into the tradition to such a degree that I would describe
this as Leela; in much the same way that they enter into the Leela of
Krishna\'s incarnation with the gopis. They in a sense become Mira; Mira
becomes like them. The stories they tell make Mira over in their image,
even as their lives are structured and made over in her image. And we
have a kind of blending of the traditions going on like this.

And Mira is alive in that sense. She\'s a living reality, rather than
someone in the past to whom we can come back and touch. And in
conclusion, I would simply say that her life becomes transformative
Leela; the saint, a living reality in people\'s lives. And she opens up
a real space for women to step out of the normative roles for their
gender, and to come into their own as women outside of that norm, and
independent women \-- creative, artistic women, religious leaders. The
space is limited. It\'s predominantly a religious one, but it\'s a very
important and very valuable one. And Mahadevi's example suggests that it
is not necessarily confined to that religious space, but has the
potential to empower women beyond that. And I\'ll stop there.

\[applause\]

Rachel McDermott:

Thank you, Nancy, so much. We have about 10 minutes, so please feel free
to field your questions. Yes?

Colonel Datar:

Colonel Datar, Foreign Policy Association, also the President of the
Indian Regiment Officers Association. I am deeply interested in Mirabai.
She\'s a tall figure in the Bhaktiras \[spelled phonetically\]; ageless
in the religious philosophy of worshiping. I love her. She was not a
devotee, but she was a lover as she took Krishna as her lover, but then
of course as sung by Suva Lakshmi, as well as, I think, according to me,
Johti Carre of Bengal \[spelled phonetically\] has sung excellent verses
all about her. I wouldn\'t mind regaling one. \[Sings in Hindi\] This is
Mirabai's verse, but who is she really calling? Whose Yogi? Krishna was
not a Yogi. Krishna was a lover. Is there a controversy created by this
particular verse, which I believe she was devoted to, or did she have a
second life?

Nancy Martin:

Okay. I don\'t think she had a second life. There are a number of songs
in which she refers to a Yogi. This is one of my favorite songs of hers,
and from my own interpretation, it is her experience of Krishna\'s
absence and his abandonment. And he seems as if he has as little concern
for her as someone who has renounced the world entirely. And so in this
song she asks him, "Don\'t go. I fall at your feet. Tell me the way.
I\'m yours, don\'t leave me." And then she asks him to build a funeral
pyre, and to take this ash and rub it upon his limbs; let flame be lost
in flame. And this is where Mira comes to the point of almost merging
her identity completely with Krishna. And nothing but the beloved
exists, in the same way in which many other mystic poets have spoken in
this kind of way, where she has both the feeling of his absence but also
the sense that she doesn\'t exist apart from him.

That\'s my interpretation of that particular verse. Some people have
raised questions about her. And they raise questions about all other
women who are associated with male gurus. Indira Devi is one; Miraji
also has a guru. There\'s always a question about this, and one of the
types of women who get called Mirabai are women who are the principle
disciple of a male guru. And people raise questions about that
relationship. But that\'s always going to happen, just as there are
questions raised about Mira's actions in multiple ways, and any woman
who steps out of the norms and takes this kind of life. The Sadus also
get questioned about this, and suspicion directed at them.

Female Speaker:

\[Inaudible\] mostly transmitted through an oral tradition, or is there
a body of literature or writing, you know, that records these?

Nancy Martin:

Okay. This is a great question, because one of the things I wanted to
find out was precisely this: how is the tradition preserved? There are
some early manuscripts with fragmentary puds, \[spelled phonetically\]
here and there. There is no early large manuscript tradition that we
know with any kind of certainty that we can date at an early period, of
Mirabai songs. Now, however, we\'ve got a huge number of manuscripts
available. We also have lots of printed collections of Mira's songs. It
appears that initially the traditions were passed on orally, and there
are a lot of reasons for arguing that, based on the structure of the
songs and the lack of written material. Now the two traditions weave
back and forth into each other, so you have people in the oral tradition
who read the written tradition, people recording, like myself, the oral
tradition; making it into written tradition.

Indira Devi songs, incidentally, that she brought back from her
experiences \-- some of the songs sung by Suva Lakshmi \-- she went and
learned them from Indira Devi. So, are those Mira? Well, some of the
songs Indira Devi brings back are very close to other texts we have.
Some are quite different. Some are very different. So the tradition is
sort of ongoing in that sense. But in terms of where are the reservoirs
of active tradition, where people have performed Mira's songs over the
centuries, I would say that they are indeed oral for the most part, and
that the tradition is not fixed, as oral tradition often isn\'t, but
that there is a constant creativity there. Though if you talk to the
actual people that are singing the oral tradition, they\'ll say, "No,
this is Mirabai; I didn\'t have anything to do with creating it."

And yet you can see some of the pieces that go together to make what
people call authentic songs; different phrases, whole stanzas, ideas
that are Mira. So when a singer sings those, perhaps they\'re not
singing them in a way anyone ever sang them before. But they don\'t see
themselves as doing something new, because it\'s Mirabai, and it\'s
recognizably Mirabai.

Male Speaker:

\[Inaudible\]. Has there been any attempt to establish which of the
songs are authentic Mira songs, and also, because when you look at the
songs, you find three languages; one are in pure Hindi, which is closer
to \[unintelligible\], and then there are songs which are in Rajasthani,
which probably was Mira's language, and then there are others which are
in the Gujarati language. So, is it \-- maybe Mira knew all three
languages, which was not unusual given that period? And also, the
question is whether these three songs composed in three languages were
actually written by Mira, or they were later on kind of merged with the
main body of all the songs, and they all went under the general rubric
of Mira songs?

Nancy Martin:

Okay. This is also an excellent question. People have tried. There have
been some reports of early manuscripts; most of these reports have been
brought into question, so we don\'t have an early manuscript tradition.
The basis for deciding which ones are more authentic, which ones are
older \-- very shaky ground again, because we could have something that
Mira composed, for example, in Rajasthani, but was early on translated
into some other language that is closer to an original than something
which seems linguistically closer later. So in 1993 I was in Chittur
when there was a gathering of scholars from all over India, precisely to
try to decide "How do we know what\'s authentic?"

Well, the grounds on which most of those decisions were made had to do
\-- in this particular gathering was which songs could people all agree
were most characteristically assigned to Mira, and everyone agreed that
"These have got to be Mira." And then there were secondary ones based on
other considerations, and everyone had to agree on the consensus of what
they were going to put in. So, some people said "Well, any reference to
the Rana has to be thrown out. Those aren\'t authentic. And any
reference to Raidas, that\'s not authentic. We\'re not taking that." So
it was more based on popularity and which things were more popularly
acclaimed to belong to Mira. They also rejected songs which clearly had
some poetic problems, and other things like that as probably later
interpolations.

I also asked this question of singers, to find out how did they decide
what was Mira? And sometimes a song can be sung in the name of two
saints, or are very close to the same song. Generally, their debates
were not about content or anything else; there\'s one Mira song which
clearly doesn\'t fit the sort of normal standard things. But the
question was, do people regularly sing this in Mira's name? If they do,
then it\'s Mirabai. If they usually sing it in another saint\'s name,
then it\'s the other saint\'s. So this was more of their way of
discussing the authenticity of something; was, whose name do you sing it
in normally, and who is it associated with?

The other thing is, if you sing a song that is the same, essentially the
same words, and you sing it in the name of Kabir, or you sing it in the
name of Mira, when you sing it in the name of Mira, it has a different
meaning because it imports all of that life story and experience into
the way in which those words are sung. So we also find that kind of
phenomenon happening in the popular tradition.

Female Speaker:

I have a question about the kinds of communities and traditions that
have evolved around Mira; whether separate communities of women, for
instance, have appropriated her story and constructed a community around
her; you know, the image of Mira, just as the Kabir bantees \[spelled
phonetically\] are devoted to Kair? So, are there similar things to do
with Mira?

Nancy Martin:

I went to India to investigate this, too, because there was an early
19^th^ century reference to a community of Mirabais. There\'s also a
later reference to something similar in our time, but when I went to see
the scholar who wrote it, he said, "Well, actually what I was referring
to was individual women who often are widowed and end up living at a
temple; living like Mira." But I didn\'t give up there. I kept asking,
are there women that live like Mirabai, and that\'s how I found the
women that I wrote about. And Mira Mataji's community has the potential
to become an ongoing community of women associated with Mira. I\'ve also
heard from Monica Til-Horsemen \[spelled phonetically\]. She reported on
a Darupanthi \[spelled phonetically\] community, and Laurie was just
telling me about one of her graduate students working on a community of
Dasnami \[spelled phonetically\] nuns who have a particular tradition
around Mira.

There is the potential for that. There has not in the past been a
Mirabai punth \[spelled phonetically\]. And there are a variety of
arguments we could say for why that doesn\'t happen. In part, Mira
isn\'t even accepted into the regular, other Sampradayas as an official
member of their Sampradayas, I think in part because of her behavior as
a woman, but also because of the nature of her bhakti. Her bhakti and
the bhakti of these women who act like her \-- I would call it patibav
\[spelled phonetically\], in which they see Krishna as their husband.
And that\'s outside of the usual ways of thinking about Vishnava
\[spelled phonetically\] devotion a little bit. And it does not allow
for religious authority figures to supersede that relationship, I would
argue. And so she\'s been well loved by everyone, pretty much, except
there are some Pushti Margee \[spelled phonetically\] texts which
condemn her. She\'s well loved, but she\'s a bit difficult to
incorporate into a structure, especially if that structure is ultimately
going to be male dominated. So we\'ll see what happens in the future;
the potential is there.

\[applause\]

Rachel McDermott:

I\'m so sorry to cut this off; we've had two marvelous papers. Thank
you, Nancy. Thank you Laurie, speeding on the way to the airport. And I
think now we have a break.

\[end of transcript\]