\<crew talk\>

M1: So it's Montgomery Interviewee. Willy Segal Levanthal, Take 9.

Q: Yeah we were all over at the St. James last night.

M1: Sound is for us, Jeremy.

M2: Thank you.

M1: this boy, Willy Fred.

M2: Willy Ferd.

Q: Uhm.. You know, you guys mostly white students from UCLA and other
northern schools going to say, Ahh.. who wanted to know, what kind a
interaction action did you ever have with white folk in the south, and
uhm.. you know, anecdotes and stories and memories about all a that,
uh.. almost- to- I want- cur- curious about that. Did ya have a- was the
ever part of the mission?

**Willy Levanthal:** Uhm.. In Macon it was act- actually both in Macon
in Americus there was some interaction. Uhm.. In Macon uhm.. there was a
little bit of sympathy uh.. for what we were doing at uhm.. at the
Mercery University. There was some young f- in folks over there who we
did make contact with. Uh.. I didn't spend a lot a time with em, but
there was a couple did. Uhm.. Other than that, uh.. pretty much the
white people. We did actually get- get invited by the White Citizens
Council to come talk to them, which we did. I was a part a that group.
And they were, you know, they were peaceful, and actually somewhat
respectful in trying to discourage us from what were doing. They
explained to us why we were making such a bad mistake and being
manipulated by the communists. We had been, you know, commie dukes,
basically. Uhm.. Other than that, uhm.. until the- until after I went
back uh.. after the project ended and stayed for a while to help an
election, the only contact we had with whites was them threatening us.

Q: Uh.

**Willy Levanthal:** And then there was no uhm.. uh.. interchange. It
was- it was uh.. I did not have real bad experiences, just people
yelling at me. There was experiences where uhm.. and these were reported
to the Justice Department where a white man would come up with a
revolver and stick it in one of the volunteer's face and where we were
soliciting those downtown. We'd been afraid to go to town initially,
downtown initially, and then I found out we could get people quicker
into the courthouse getting em from the local area than trying to drive
em down there, wasting a lot a time doing that. So we did go downtown
and uh.. We had some people had some guns stuck in their face and told
if, you know, if they were still there 20 minutes later, they'd come
back and blow their heads off. But those particular people didn't-
didn't come back. I did not have that experience. Uh.. Later when I came
back from Americus, there was a white woman who did contact me, I mean
Betty Adams, who was involved with the Methodist Church. And she said,
you know, you're still here and you've been working with these black
people, and these, part a these young people. You know, I work with the
Methodist Church and young people. Why don't we get these young white
people and these young black people to meet. These young Methodists. The
uh.. a- the African Episcopal Methodists and the young white. And she
invited us to the houses. And we had a nice meeting at her house. Uhm..
I- She was the only person. She was kind of a rebel. She had worked in
the Post Office, one a the first women. And her husband was o.k. with
it. He was a pretty much down home southern, but he knew his wife was a
very strong willed lady. And she said it's time that we try and get
people talkin.

Q: Uhm.

**Willy Levanthal:** Uh.. That was the only uh.. And Bill Randall,
William P. Randall, was such a pervasive force in that town, had so much
respect from people that might not like him, i.e. the sheriff or other
people. When I got arrested, they got me out, and they called the
sheriff and balled the sheriff out. What a you doing arresting this kid
when he said da da da da. And he said, Willy, the sheriff would like to
drop the charges, if you'll let him. And I said, well, I don't know,
Bill. What a- what a you think? I mean, I- I'd never been arrested
before til 2 hours earlier. And he said, well, I think you know, you're
not gonna have the- these men aren't gonna do that anymore. And so we, I
think you should let him drop the charges. Playing with me. But Bill
Randall ran that- that movement for us. Uhm.. And so, you know, he- I
didn't talk to the sheriff and when the policeman arrested me, he said I
was a, excuse the language, he said I was a smart alec and a nigger
lover. And I said I didn't know that was against the law. And I was just
happy that they didn't turn into the bush, because we'd read these
things, the cops take you out in the woods, and beat you, or kill you,
or whatever. And when he took me to jail, I was happy to go to jail. And
that was all that happened. Now in Americus, I ended up going to jail
and got shot at and, you know, there was white people that'd shoot me.
They wanted to kill me. I mean they were literally shooting at me on two
different occasions. And the same kind a threats, I mean it- Americus
was a battle zone, I mean, people were getting released from the jail.
Right out a the fire station they were shooting ball bearings out a
sling shots. I mean, there was these, ball bearings were being shot, you
know, with high powered sling shots from the fire station.

Q: Um hm.

**Willy Levanthal:** Uh.. Which was nearby the jail. And there- there
were shootings going on almost every day, and uhm.. no white people. I
mean the great story uh.. from Americus was Warren Fortson, was a friend
a Jimmy Carter's. Jimmy Carter was gone that summer of '65, and to just
tell ya how difficult it was. Warren Fortson's brother was Ben Fortson.
He had been the Secretary of State for Georgia for many, many years. He
was the current Secretary of State. All Ben Fortson did was come out for
a bi-racial committee. And he was driven out a town within- by threats,
within two months. And his brother was a sitting Secretary of State and
he didn't feel safe to say. So it was very hard for white people to make
moves because of the terrorists, the clan, who were essentially
terrorists, uh.. scared everybody. And they scared the white people,
too. Uh..

Q: O.K. Let's cut for a second.

**Willy Levanthal:** I'm sorry.

Q: Oh, no, you don't have to apologize. Let's cut for a second.

M1: Do you know your ocra man?

M2: Yeah.

M1: Oh, it's good.

M2: It's really good. It was, you know, I'll tell ya, it was o.k.

Q: All right. Good.

**Willy Levanthal:** Can I get a plate lunch with ocra?

Q: Yes, down in \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. Uh.. All right. Voting rights.

**Willy Levanthal:** They aftermath of the signing.

Q: Selma. Aftermath. You know. Run it down.

**Willy Levanthal:** O.K. Uhm.. I think what was clear to SCLC, and-
and- and some- uh.. movements. Nick when I say it's SCLC's, it's Nick,
the- the movement people. And the people in the local communities in
Selma and other places, was that the Selma march did not finish the push
to the voting rights act. What it did, is it forced the federal
government to address that problem. It- almost immediately, before they
wanted to. The story is from Walter Flaunteroy, he went to Johnson in-
in, you know, or late '64. Said we want a voting rights act. We can't-
I- I can't get it for ya. I got the vote of the civil rights act, I
can't do this. I'm- you just have to wait. Well, Selma pushed that
agenda so it could not be ignored. So then the- the- the task was, there
was southern congressional resistance. How do you break that to get the
bill enacted, signed, you know, passed by the Congress, signed by the
President. So one a the things the SCLC did is they had prob- this
school project in 90 counties. And at one point in late July, when the
bill was kind of stalled in Congress, because they were trying to block
the voting rights bill, probably maybe not as much as they had tried the
civil rights act of '64, which a long filibuster, but there was
maneuvering going on. The bill, they wanted the bill passed in early
June. Remember Selma was March. Johnson brought up the bill in March. It
was not signed til August. SCLC had hoped to get it signed at the
beginning of the summer, so we could then register more voters under the
new act. It didn't get done. And when it became clear that the
negotiations weren't- weren't working, there was the uhm.. street
demonstrations in Americus, and then Jose Williams, who had wanted to
put a lid somewhat on the street demonstrations, said go ahead, you've
documented this stuff. And 70 counties went out in one week. And those-
those records are documented in Jose's files. And so the local people
kind of told their Congress people, damn, get this bill passed because
then we're not gonna have any peace. These people ain't stopping. They
got these white kids here. The local people are working with them. Their
stronger, or at least they're as strong enough to get out in the
streets. Be marching to our courthouses. The papers are coming, you
know, it wasn't it wasn't good for the business community. People,
essentially the resistance uhm.. was fatigued, as well as the movement
being fatigued. And the movement had got more troops. And SCLC brought
in more troops. And the- the labor and uh.. some a the power circles in
Washington were supporting the voting rights act. So, uhm.. you know,
uh.. Selma was kind of the early assault and then there were additional
waves that- that pushed it through to conclusion. And- and had it not
been pushed through, we saw- seen that the black community in different
sectors over the country exploded in rage and frustration because of all
the injustice that had been put upon them for so many years. And the
voting rights bill, uhm.. there was a time table to- for the civil
rights movement to accomplish that. And they did before those explosions
happened. At least that was accomplished.

Q: There's a lot. That's good. Thank you. That's good. Now, there was a
lot of talk, well, let me put it this way. After Bloody Sunday, and that
infamous showing of the footage on ABC, there was a lot a outrage across
the country. What are the things that we could also need of the
characterization of that outrage, if you will, for to respect someone's
perspective like yours, I mean, you know, all the way out in California.
What did you pick up on, I mean, what did you- what a do you remember?

**Willy Levanthal:** Uhm.. I do vaguely remember the reaction to that
footage on Bloody Sunday. As I said, for me it was a little different
cause I maybe had a little high- higher awareness, cause I had been.
Cause I remember distinctly uhm.. seeing that January 2^nd^ news report
in the LA Times. Jack Nelson, who was a great journalist, was covering
that for the LA times. Later on would be bureau chief in Washington. And
uh.. so they had coverage through- right through Selma. What I remember
more the march that came after it. There was tremendous publicity on
that march. When Johnson went before one a the cameras and said we shall
overcome. That was a big, big uhm.. thing. Because that was the- the-
and then you had the president saying the words of the movement.

Q: Um.

**Willy Levanthal:** That was tremendous impact that I remember. And I
also remember very much all the people coming to support the march. Not
so much the beating. That- I- I just for whatever reason, didn't
remember that personally so much. Uh.. But then the- all the people went
to Selma. The National Guard was there. And then when uh.. Reverend
Reeve was killed, uh.. I remember that clearly. And uhm.. uhm.. the old
leaod \[ph?\] so, and- and you know, Jimmy. And it- strangely, Jimmy Lee
Jackson's death happened earlier before that. And that didn't cause much
of- on the news. We remember him, hopefully remember now that's a lot
what it was about. That Jim Belvel went and said, and we gotta take his
body to the State Capital and make these people understand, you know,
what they're doing. Or whatever the language was. And apparently Dr.
King's initial reaction was, well, do you think we can really get people
to march all the way to Montgomery. And he said, go ahead. Dr. King let
his staff try and do these things. And the events unfolded. But there
was tremendous publicity uh.. coverage of the march itself. It was a
little break in to that Bloody Sunday, but then there was every night
tremendous coverage of that march. And I remember that.

Q: Cut. Excellent. Excellent.

**Willy Levanthal:** Great run.

Q: Yeah when you.

**Willy Levanthal:** O.K. Uhm.. I think that- that in talking about the
movement that took the shock of Bloody Sunday through that uhm.. uh..
publicity uh.. of the march itself, that continuation of work was led by
a lot of unsung, unknown, what Dr. King called the unknown ground crew
of people in Snick {ph?\] and SCLC, and local communities all across the
south- south. Young, uh.. black, uh.. little more than boys and girls.
Teenagers, and many times just teenagers, were a lot a the people we
worked with in Macon were 15, 16 years old. But SCLC staff member, Jimmy
Wells, who is not the- the uhm.. Chief Deputy Marshall in- in uh..
Fulton County in Atlanta, he was a field secretary at 19, traveling in
many counties around the south, giving courageous leadership. Willie
Bolden recently retired from the school district there, uhm.. ex-marine,
ex-football player, great, courageous leadership uh.. in those
communities. And- and he was at Bloody Sunday here in Selma. And James
Orange, uhm.. Ben Clark, who's now dead. Leon Hall. Uh.. These people
who I'm afraid the young people, black and white, uhm.. don't know these
heroes. And they were heroes. Uhm.. And they were the people that
allowed those of us who were white, who were very inexperienced in this
kind of thing, uh.. and also very young, to have some roll models. And
some buddies. These were my buddies that taught me how to survive and,
you know, uh.. on the ground. Uh.. Jesse Jackson was called non-violent
warriors. And I think that's uh.. a good- a good uhm.. way to describe
it. But those were the people that carried uh.. if you think of it, in
terms of Selma got it to the 50 yard line. There was 50 more yards to
go, and it was those young courageous. And then Americus women, Lean
Turner, and Gloria Wise, and there's a whole list. Every community could
do a oral history on their local leaders. The young people, black and
white. Uh.. mostly black, predominately black in the south, that led
that movement. Uhm.. And men and women, yu- yu- young- young- young
people that just were as big a heroes as, you know, the military
recognizes they're heroes. And they should. Every Memorial Day, and they
give the medals and they put things. And that's fine. The movement uh..
in the country, I think, doesn't know who Lena Turner is, and Gloria
Wise, and the Barnums in Americus. And all these communities have these
leaders. And uh.. I hope that the- that this film can stimulate some of
those local communities. Recognizing. Some do. But many don't. These are
just great people. And I was- I was blessed. It enlarged my life and
enriched my life to know people like that. Uh.. It- it- it broadened my
world.

Q: And cut. Good. We're done. Excellent.

M1: Selma and Montgomery. Interviewee Jean T. Martin. Take 9.

Q: All right. We're rolling.

\<crew talk\>

Q: You look absolutely stunning.

**Jean T. Martin:** Oh, I'm sure.

Q: I'm so glad you wore color.

**Jean T. Martin:** Oh, I get the more color. I'm white.

Q: Ha ha ha. So I'll start with this business about the city council.
You're a elected member of the city council and, boy, I tell you must
have seen lots of changes over the years in Selma, particularly between
the relationships between peoples. All the various peoples who are
citizens here. Talk to me just a little bit about that.

**Jean T. Martin:** I came back to Selma. I'm a native. My husband was
military. We came back to Selma in 1961 because uh.. he had gone back to
school. Gotten his graduate degrees. Was teaching and then uh.. wh- was
working in Montgomery. My home was here. My father was dead. My mother
was still home. So we came back to Selma to my family home, which is
where I still live. My sons, at that time, were in oh, elementary school
and were in junior high school. They good bit older than my daughter,
who was an infant. And we came back for several reasons. One, because
you can go home again. And I had lived in many places in the world. And
enjoyed it and met so many different kinds of people. But still, this
was home. And my children- my sons were tired of being dragged from
school to school and place to place. So we came home. This was- I
suppose history is gonna term it the turbulent '60's. I'm not sure. It
was a time. It was after the Brown decision with the schools. It was a
time when Selma was beginning to face the reality of the fact that we're
all God's children. Perhaps that's the nicest way I can put it. Our
schools were supposed to be integrated, and in the elementary schools
were perhaps beginning to be. And I believe in high school not quite
yet. I can remember I was, of course, I was working for the government.
The Air Base, so my loyalties had to lie with government policies and
principles. Economically speaking. In fact, my husband went back to
graduate school the year my oldest son graduated in a college. And my
daughter entered kindergarten, all in the same year. And somebody had to
go to work. So I went back to the government. But at the time, there
were constant articles in newspapers, in news magazines, of- on
television. And what of the old about integration and what was going to
happen, how it was going to be done. Reactions from various groups and
people to it. On one side, we had a population of Selmians uh.. to whom
change was anathemy. It was foreign. It was- and most of us dred change.
We're afraid of it until it happens and we see that the world does not
come to an end. And then the other we had a group of people I suppose-
turn the pig. Anyway they were- they were standing up for the first time
in their lives many of them, and shouting about their rights as citizens
of this country. This democracy. Their right to vote. Their right for a
decent income. Their right to eat in a restaurant and order a cup a
coffee. The right any citizen is entitled to. And this was happening in
the '60's. As it began to escalate, the- still we had- some was
fortunate, I think. And he's still alive today, by the way. The
publisher of our local newspaper was a very fair minded man who wrote
the truth and did not mind writing an editorial about the way things
should be. The way they shouldn't be. What we should not do. I can
remember, too, the churches. I'm Epsicopalian. I'm very proud to say
that our church doors were open and shortly thereafter so were those of
First Presbyterian, who's members stuck. Was truly a man of God. Some of
the churches did not feel that way. But there was not a big push about
that. I just heard some news discussion on Public TV, and they said,
again, the most segregated alum \[ph?\] are first led McCott \[ph?\]
from Sunday morning. This was uhm.. a black man who said it. But he
said, in my opinion, that's the way it should be. I like my church. And
I think we feel that way. So that was a not a big issue. I think the
schools were the big iss- issue in the '60's. After this group of black
school teachers very bravely, and it was brave, and I know many of em
and knew them, marched on the courthouse when they had been refused time
and again the right to register to vote. These educated people. And they
were not allowed to register to vote. After they took their courage in
their hands, and marched on it, that's when things escalated to the
point that begin to really attract attention nationally first. This uh..
small town that had always been pretty peaceful ever since the Yankees
burned in the civil way, had been pretty peaceful and quiet, and
attracted very little attention. Suddenly everybody knew Selma. They
were turbulent times. They were. I had two sons in school, and my- my
husband, as some of my acquaintances said at the time, well, what a you
expect. After all, she married a Yankee. My husband was a Yankee. That
had nothing to do with it. It's just that we had lived in so many
places, met and gotten to know so many people of all ethnic backgrounds
that perhaps we came home feeling a little differently than an average
citizen of the deep south.

Q: So now, let's talk about these average citizens of the deep south,
cause I'm kind a curious. We have lots of people who are gonna tell us
about the marches.

**Jean T. Martin:** Yeah.

Q: The struggle. Going across the Pettis Bridge both times. You know.
And you, because of your, you know, I'm presuming, because of your
social stance, your social situation, you got a chance to see the
reaction to all of this from the other side, if you will. Characterize
it for me. Paint me a picture. I know it was varied. I know that there
were people who quietly, you know, white folks, who quietly supported
this effort.

**Jean T. Martin:** Yes.

Q: So tell me what it was like.

**Jean T. Martin:** There were many people growing up in the deep south
when you- when I was young. It was the way things were and you just
accepted life is that. But as you began to get older, you noticed. I can
remember the first real impact. Uh.. Realization of just what
segregation meant. I was going in the old Carnegie Library, which is now
Center for Commerce. My whole family's- we're all readers. My paw was a
great reader. And the library was as much as- as much a part of our
lives as our home was. And as I started up the steps, and I was perhaps
in, maybe in high school, junior high, there was a young, black boy
standing near there and he said, Miss. So I must a been in jun- in
senior high. Miss, what's in there . And I said, books. All kinds of
books. And he said, could I see them sometime? And I thought, dear Lord,
that's what this is about.

Q: Um hm.

**Jean T. Martin:** Uh.. And I would \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ the energy up here,
and perhaps it's- it's not on the time line. There was a librarian in
Selma in the '60's. Her name is Pat Blaylock. She no longer lives here.
She's retired. And Pat before the segre- before- well, before the law
was passed, the end of segregation. Pat battled with the Board,
convinced them, talked them- and she was small, but determined. And she
integrated the public library before that was the law of the land. So,
she's one of the people in Selma that were part of that rather quiet but
determined group. And there were many. Charles' house today we buried
her friend, Marium Lewis, who's husband, Art Lewis, they lived in Selma
a number of years. They were a Jewish couple. And Marium well, lived in
Atlanta at her death but wanted to come home to be buried. But they were
part of the group that- People would get together and talk about what
they could do, and try to ease things. Make it easier. Because no one
wants to see your town destroyed. It- it finally reached the point,
however, through publicity. And the march of the school teachers, and
the demonstrations that were not allowed, that uh.. March 7^th^ came
along. The march on the bridge. And that was when I think the impact of
what was happening really hit Selma. Before that there'd be uh.. 2 or 3
black march, a demonstration, and I had two sons in school. They're four
years age difference. And every day when I went to work and they went to
school, I would say, you come straight home from school and don't you
get involved in that. They- they did. They were interested in what was
happening. And when the high school became integrated with the first
students, my sons made friends with them. Some- some they already knew.
You know, what people don't understand that, forever, there's been
friendship and love between the races. For many, many families and
people. So uh.. and there were students at the school who didn't feel
that way because our children reflect their families' beliefs. And uhm..
one a my sons do- are you familiar with the term SDS?

Q: Um hm.

**Jean T. Martin:** Which is a terrible, terrible thing. And one of mine
was accused of being a member of the SDS, and that's what was wrong with
him. Oh, I lived through that. I lived through Beatles, and lor on that
my sons, and the arguments, and the dinner tables with, are you going to
get a hair cut? Or did you now want your allowance this week? But, but
that- what- what it came down to, again, people were being denied their
rights as citizens. And in Selma, this is what we talked about. Some
people were absolutely opposed. Uh.. Perhaps not opposed, as you said,
they- they closed their eyes to it, and did not want to get involved.

Q: Well, yeah, I think I need to get a sense of, and it must have been
terribly frustrating for a lot a people. Over here you got Jim Clark, a
posse. You've got all of the things that I'm sure that- even people who
just wanted to keep quiet. Decent people would say, this is not right.
And over here you've got decent people who wanted to speak up and were
trying to find a way, but they're in the middle, you know, from the
history I've read, and from the things I've said, it's like, well, why
couldn't- where was the power here? It was like, it was as if, it was as
if Clark and those folk had.

**Jean T. Martin:** The power here was in a judge, Hale. You've heard of
him. Who was, I would say, total segregationist. Jim Clark, and his
power, was only in the people who supported him. And I would say, not so
much local businessmen, as perhaps the owners of lots of land that-
cause there was still in Selma then some of that hold over from the
plantation days. That- that type mentality, if you wanna call it. That
was still here. And I know if they were businessmen who wanted to open
the soda fountain and the drug store to everybody who wanted to let a
black woman come into the department store and try on a dress that she
wanted to buy. Who felt that it was ridiculous to have uh.. black people
sitting in the balcony in the movie theater and white downstairs. But
the economic pressure was great. When you have a family, a business, and
you're threatened economically with perhaps somebody's on a board of a
bank and who says, hey, I'm gonna call your loan in if you do so and so.
And this happened and not just in Selma. It happens today in many
respects. So it was a difficult- it was very difficult if not impossible
for a liberal thinking, white person, member of the community is well
known, to stand up and speak out and say, hey, this is wrong. People did
begin to do this and our pulpits. Some of the ministers did this. And
our newspaper, Roswell Falconberry, the editor and publisher did it. His
house was regularly egged with rotten eggs and all kinds of things. But
he did it. But- and it took courage. At Craig, as you probably know, and
we don't need to go into the march cause I was not part of that. But
they were housed there at times. And people walked there. And I remember
vividly, I worked with two women. We became good friends. One was a
black attorney. The other was, I believe, in personnel. She was an all
woman college graduate. And you probably going to be talking to her
husband. I'm not gonna call her name. But we would have lunch together
out at the Base. And even people who were federal employees were very
critical of us for that. She and her husband became the first black
social friend. She might say, why you knew each other, liked each other,
loved each other. They were the first. That was a long time ago, because
my husband's been dead almost 30 years, so. But that gives you an idea
of some of the things. Our church doors were open, as I said. Jonathan
Daniels attended our church. I was in the choir then where I was
forever. And that gave me a great view of who came to church. And I can
remember uh.. the people coming in from the east and north after the
first incident on the bridge. They came, and they would come to church.
And he was one of them. And I felt good. I think most of us did. That
our church was standing for what was right. That wa- that was a good
feeling. But our streets. There were other things that, if you have ever
been in- trying to know what to compare it to. All of a sudden, our
quiet, sleepy little town was over fullen with strangers and some
strange people uh.. who came. I think a century ago they'd a been called
camp followers. And that's pretty much. You know, selling all kinds a
things on street corners. Uh.. setting up their business in empty
houses. But that- that's all part of it I understand. And I think it's
happened in other cities. But that's the part that- that turned a lot of
people aside from seeing what was really happening. Cause that's a bad
part about it. But just the same, it proceeded. The schools were
integrated and peacefully. For a long time it was just- in the '90's
that there was some problems for any. It grew from something else. Not a
integration uh.. problem. And I won't even get into that.

Q: O.K.

**Jean T. Martin:** But, Selma more and more, I- I think accepted the
fact that the world had changed. And we had changed with it. And I say
again, I think our business communities were responsible for a lot of
it, because after all, this is men in business to make money. To make a
livin, and they saw how the wind was blowing. When people were allowed
to register to vote finally, by law, they were supposed to. That law was
passed. There were still some problems. And I will tell you. I'll give
you one personal incident. There was a- a woman that had been really
part of my family for so many years. Liz Taylor. She- my father had
cancer and was ill several years before he died. She was devoted to him,
and to us, when we were growing up. She was part a the family. We loved
her. And she came to me one day and said, I went to vote and they turned
me aside. My father was dead by then. So I said, I'll go with you. And I
did. I went to the courthouse and went into the room where this Board of
Registrars presided. And they're all dead now, I think. So it's all
right to talk about it. But I won't use names. And he said, what are you
doing here? And I said, I'm here as a witness for this woman to register
to vote. And he said, and what would your father think, young lady, of
he were alive? And I can remember so well saying, and you must remember
young women in the south were not reared to speak that way to their
elders. I can remember saying, if my father were alike he would be here
with her in my place. And he would've been. And there are many people in
Selma who would've been and I want- I want so much- that's a so-called
side bar to history because as you expressed, it's difficult- it's
difficult to talk about it. But there were people who did. And by the
way, Ollie is registered to vote and she never missed an election. Which
was great. That meant so much to her. And I thought, have we sort a
taken it for granted. Although, when I registered to vote you still had
to pay poll tax. My father took us up when we reached the voting age.
Paid the poll tax. We pa- and anyway, that was uh.. I think- I- I have
always thought was one way they tried to keep women from voting. I
wouldn't be a bit surprised. Cause it's not like we were born with
brains, you understand. We don't, but I just hope uh.. my daddy is
looking down from heaven to see me on the city council. Up--- he'd like
that.

Q: He'd like that. As a journalist, and I'm watching the time carefully,
I know you got to split. Yet as a journalist, I'm being- and most of us
who have been, are observers, whether we're trained or not we lean
towards keen observation. The political changes that have happened have
resulted in, well now, you know, a black mayor here in Selma. Lots a
black officials around this area, in Lough's \[ph?\] County.

**Jean T. Martin:** Oh, yes, in the black belt.

Q: As you've so carefully done, I don't need names. I don't need this.
How has this generation past Selma adapted. Especially the white
generation? How have they adapted to these shifts in political fortune.
These kind a shifts in economic moves. Or, give me your observation of
all that.

**Jean T. Martin:** Well, in the first place, uh.. I can tell you. Let's
go back to economics first to- to explain this to you. Some years back
there was- this city had a group of young men, businessmen, called the
Committee of One Hundred. Trying to get industry here. You may have
heard of it. Forward thinking men. Most of them pretty liberal minded.
And there was a chance to get Hammermill Paper Company to build a plant
here. They worked so hard to do it. And it- and had to step forward,
speak out, make promises, but they succeeded. And I've always thought
that pushed the door wide open for people to understand. You can't get
around the fact that economics plays a major role in what has happened.
Now as far- I have a picture on the wall of my museum that shows the
first integrated city council. And it was some years back. Uh.. You
would recognize some of the faces. And the world did not come to an end.
And everything continued. Some laws changed. It's interesting and I'm
sorry he won't talk to you, because Smotherman \[ph?\] had a very good
working relationship, as you've probably heard, with most of these
people and received- every election that he ran- a large number of votes
from within the black community. A racist he's not. Then you begin to
see clerks in stores where they'd formerly been all white. You begin to
see mixed groups in restaurants. Church not so much, but that's never
gonna be in. I mean, the- and that's- I mean religion's a personal
thing. That is not my problem. That doesn't concern me. You began to
hear less criticism, less cursing, about the federal government and the
laws. Things- things began to change. Peaceful. That has- this economy
again, I think parity has played a major role in many of the problems.
And what's is not realized, I don't believe by the country at large, is
that there were probably as many very poor white people as black people.
And there still are. The black belt has suffered financially. Part of it
because of our history. I think with the- the uh.. incident on the
Pellis Bridge. By the way, I'm gonna give ya a side bar. I had a call
not long a go from a journalist in New York. New York Times. And asking
a question. I've gotten so old I'm called on achelon \[ph?\] so I answer
their questions. And he- he said- I said something about the bridge
incident. He said, what bridge was that? And I said, thank you, Lord. Ha
ha. That he knew Selma for something besides. But, there were- I guess
you'd- you'd saying a white peace came back to Selma in some ways, after
everybody saw the bridge was not gonna fall in the river. And the town
was not going to come to an abrupt halt. And they began to accept. And
integrate. And now there've been bridges built between the community
deliberately by a number a people. When the publisher of our local
newspaper came to me and said, I need a community editor. I need someone
who can help build a bridge and walk across it, and he asked me to do
it. And I tried very hard to do that. And many, many people have done
that. And you may cut this out, but I will tell you something I'm quite
proud of. I received the Bridge Builder's Award from Mrs. Sanders last
year at one of the meetings. And that made me feel proud cause it means
that acceptance by people that you have wanted to be accepted by.

Q: Well, it's a nice metaphor, bridge builders, bridge building, you
know. Just a little side bar from us, we interviewed a guy named Peter
Pettis.

**Jean T. Martin:** Um hm.

Q: On Friday. You've heard of Mr. Pettis?

**Jean T. Martin:** Yes.

Q: Mr. Pettis and Ms. Pettis relates in his interview how he's a distant
relative of Edmond Pettis.

**Jean T. Martin:** Edmond Winston Pettis, yes.

Q: And a lot of his photographs, by the way, have been selected and
purchased and are gonna be in the museum, which are very, very special.

**Jean T. Martin:** Good.

Q: Very, very special for.

**Jean T. Martin:** That's great.

Q: Yeah. So we, you know, I promised you, and we are just about done.
You're magnificent, you know. A better bridge builder they couldn't
have.

**Jean T. Martin:** Oh, thank you.

Q: But, you know, but this is your opportunity for final words now.
You've said something, you said a lot that's been interpretive and
descriptive and analytic and just heart felt genuine. And I truly
appreciate it. What final words do you have for us. And think about
what's, you know, might be necessary for this film which is where we're
trying to get across to young people, too. Especially young people.

**Jean T. Martin:** Well, for one thing, I started this- I think one of
my first sentences were we're all God's children and we are. And I want
our young people to know this. And they do. If you go to for a ball
game, you go to a party, if you see a parade downtown at Christmas, they
are mingling. One of my fellow council women, and I have sponsored for
ten years, a group called You Think Off It Much.

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