Q: I noticed that your husband was very active in the arts and I wanted
to ask you a little about the Black Belt Arts and Culture.

**Pauline Anderson:** Oh, that was uhm..- the Black Belt Arts and Cu-
uh.. that was a group of students who presented plays and uh.. they-
they would present at least one play every year and they- they started
the movement in the basement of our church because that was their
meeting place. He was not uh.. particularly associated with the group,
except for- for furnishing a place for them to meet. But they are s..- I
think they are still in operation, if Mrs. Sanders- she was head of that
group.

Q: What was the role of the arts in the movement?

**Pauline Anderson:** Well they would present uh.. programs- plays- and
at least one play a year. And- and they had uh.. African dances and..
such to present the uh..- uh.. let the uh.. young people- it was a group
of young people, high school students mostly. And they were uh..- they
were learning something about the culture of Africa and.. I don't know
that they learned too much about the culture of uh.. Americans during
the period of slavery. People don't talk about that much. That's- that's
a taboo subject. That's one- one phase of America that America is
ashamed of and so uh.. you don't hear too much about that. But- but it
was a fact of life. And my grandfather, on my father's side, and mother,
were both born in slavery. Of course they were children at the time of
the emancipation. But uh.. they were- they were fortunate. They were
able to go to college and he uh.. became a college president and she was
a music teacher also.

Q: A grand tradition.

**Pauline Anderson:** \<laughs\>

Q: That's wonderful. We were over this morning at the cemetery that
seems to celebrate the confederacy and a lot of that.

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes.

Q: It's kind of a strange thing to find in Selma.

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes, the old Live Oaks Cemetery has uh.. people of
all extractions buried there- cuz our- our family came in later and
they're buried in- in the black cemeteries. My- my father's family- the
Deacons- are buried in East Selma Cemetery. And the- my mother's family,
the Burwell's, are buried in the Lincoln Cemetery. And my grandfather,
my mother's father, Dr. Burwell, was a medical doctor uh.. back in the
1890's and uh.. he had to uh..- he didn't have a place to send his
patients. Well first he- he didn't have a- didn't get- have- have uh-
uh.. his pres- prescriptions refilled very well. So then he went back to
school to Howard University and studied- studied pharmacy and he- he
became a pharmacist and he opened his own drugstore. Uh.. he's- he had
his practice and he opened his own drug store. And then later he went
back and studied surgery at Howard and uh.. opened his own little
infirmary, and he operated his infirmary until his death in that ph\--
then the uh..- the Anderson's- uh.. Minnie Anderson, you- you've heard
of her and her husband- bought the infirmary and they operated it under
his name for the next 40 years until Mr. Anderson died. Then they
changed the name to Anderson. And by this time it had turned- they had
made it into a nursing home. So later they moved. They- that building
was getting old so they moved to a new building and uh..- out on the
Range Land Road. Later, after Mrs. Anderson's son passed away, she was
old and she couldn't operate it by herself. So she sold it and it- it
came under new management and they changed the name to The Lighthouse.
So.. those are the businesses that my other grandfather had. He had the
drugst- he had his own practice and he had the drugstore and the uh..
infirmary, for his patients.

Q: And those were segregated?

**Pauline Anderson:** Oh yes. They uh.. had white ho- doctors uh..
working at the hospital. But they would come in and then they would\--
this disturbed me. They'd- they would uh.. take patients, some patients
to the hospital for a operation and bring them back to the infirmary for
recovery. And I thought that was- I mean bringin' them right out of
surgery uh.. to another place for recovery was- I was wondering about
that. But at any rate, that's what they did for- that was the best they
could do.

Q: What are some other examples of those injustices and things that just
kind of divide?

**Pauline Anderson:** Well, you- you would go to uh.. public places and
you'd see water- water fountains. And over one water fountain, you'd see
color and the other one you'd see white. And that was- uh.. that was, to
me, unchristian. But uh.. that's the way life was. Everything was
segregated. On trains, you had separate cars and uh.. if you go to a
diner on the train, they had curtains up and you sat behind the curtain,
and uh.. all kind of indignities. But it was something we lived with.
When I went away to college, all of that was uh.. done away with- I
mean, didn't have that. So I saw- I found out what life was like.

Q: I was told that they wouldn't allow African Americans to try on shoes
or clothes. You had to face a lot of indignities.

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes. I don't know. I- I would go to Se- downtown
and try on dresses and shoes. I never had any trouble personally with
that, but some people did.

Q: Mrs. Anderson, I wanted to ask you about what effect did music have
on getting the Voting Rights message out and what effect did it have on
the young people of the movement?

**Pauline Anderson:** Well at all of the mass meetings, they had uh..
freedom- singing of freedom songs, and they- everybody participated in
the singing. And the- the songs were to arouse you uh- uh.. to make you-
get you in the feeling of the movement- feeling of the movement. That
was....

Q: What were some of the songs that were sung at those mass meetings?

**Pauline Anderson:** Well sometimes they sang the old spirituals- Oh
Freedom..- *before I'll be a slave, I'll be buried in my grave*- you
remember that song? Oh Freedom. That was one that- and uhm.. *I had my
mind set on freedom* and uh..- I can't remember all the songs. But at
any rate, uh.. there were some songs they sang every time- all the time.
Yes.

Q: When you hear those songs, how does that make you feel?

**Pauline Anderson:** Well it- it gives you a feeling that you are
somebody and that you have a..- that you have a history and you have-
you have some aspirations to do better and be better, and to contribute
to this- the development of this country. I uhm.. I work with children
and so I say to uhm.., "You sing this- My Country Tis of Thee. You know
that?" "No." \<laughs\> I say, "You don't know that. Don't you sing that
in school?" "No." I say, "What do you sing in school?" "Nothing. If
you're not in the choir, you don't sing." I say, "Well way back then
when I was in school, everybody sang." We had a- and every Friday we
would have what we called rhetoricals and we'd have programs and we'd
sing a song. We had a little hymn- a little songbook called The Twice 55
Community Songs- maybe you're familiar with that book. And we, as
children in the elementary school, we knew just about every song in the
book. But you could- but children don't know any songs. You go to
church, they don't know any hymns. And uh.. I wonder what happens- what
happened to that.

Q: Well as you pointed out.

**Pauline Anderson:** Maybe I'm- maybe I'm too old-fashioned. \<laughs\>

Q: \<laughs\>

**Pauline Anderson:** But uh.. we had that way back then when I was in
school- elementary school.

Q: I can tell you're young at heart. What advice do you give to children
now when you're telling them about the past? Do they ask you questions
about the past?

**Pauline Anderson:** Not too much.

Q: Do they want to know what it was like?

**Pauline Anderson:** They are more interested in what's happening now.
But uh..- but they need to know something about history. They need to
know the past. And uh.. a lot of black people don't want to think about
the past because that's a- that's negative. And they- they just want to
think about the future- the present and the future. But uh.. there is a
past and we should- we should never forget the past. We should never.
And there's a such a thing as slavery. There was such a thing as
slavery. And as I said before, two of my grandparents were born in
slavery. My grandfather was 7-years-old at the time of the emancipation
and my grandmother was 2-years-old so she probably wouldn't remember it.
But uh..- and my other grandparents were born after the emancipation.
So. But all of them had a chance to go to school and uh.. to make a
contribution to the world.

Q: The movie we're working on is going to be shown all around the
country. People are going to be looking to you for advice. And I've
asked a lot of questions.

**Pauline Anderson:** Oh. \<laughs\>

Q: I'd love to hear what advice you might give and what you might like
to have going out from this film.

**Pauline Anderson:** Well for young people, as I said before, the main
thing is education, and religion. If you can keep- if you can keep your
mind and body and soul together and productive, you can make it in the
world, anywhere. But you do have to have some- you have to have
character, as well as ability. And those two things can carry you a- a
long way- character and ability can carry you a long way, in the world.

Q: Well Mrs. Anderson. Thank you very much. You were very kind to come
down and we enjoyed talking to you, and I think these are important
words to share with our young people.

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes.

Q: You were great. Thank you.

**Pauline Anderson:** Thank you.

\<END OF INTERVIEW\>

\<CREW talk\>

Q: Tell us a little about yourself.

**Joanne Bland:** Now? \<laughs\>

Q: Right now. It's coming.

**Joanne Bland:** My name is Joanne Bland and I'm a native Selmian
\[ph?\], meaning I was born in Selma, Alabama. I am now the Director of
the National Voting Rights Museum.

Q: What is important about voting rights?

**Joanne Bland:** Well, it gives you choices. I think uhm.. with voting
rights, uhm.. particularly to those who have been uh.. denied in the
past, uhm.. they had no choices, and now you can choose and have a voice
in your community on uh.. what happens. And it affects everything, from
the taxes you pay, where you live, where you go to school, even the
clothing you wear. So I think it's very important.

Q: Take us back to the days in Selma when they didn't have voting
rights.

**Joanne Bland:** I grew up here in Selma. Uhm.. in fact uhm.. I
attended my first mass meeting when I was 8-years-old when my
grandmother, Sylvia Johnson, took us to the mass meeting. I didn't know-
I had no idea what it was about. Uhm.. I thought I was going to see a
dog, but that's another story. But uhm.. after that meeting, my sister
Linda was asking so many questions and Grandmother was trying to answer
them for her. Uhm.. Grandmother told us a change was gonna come here in
Selma- that uhm.. when Black people would have rights like everyone
else. At 8, I didn't understand what she meant. But after that, it
became a succession of mass meetings and then different people came in-
like Dr. King, Bernard Lafayette and others came in- and uhm.. the
movement really heated up. Uh.. Grandmother was a member of what we
called the Dallas County Voters League and uhm.. she, along with others,
set about trying to register African Americans here to vote. The
organization was uh.. formed by Sam and Amelia Boynton \[ph?\] who were
our farm extension agents. By 1964, they only had 8 members left. They
wrote a letter to Dr. King and invited him to Selma and we started
marching every day. By that time, I was 11-years-old. I grew up in
George Washington Carver Homes, which is a housing projects, and uhm..
Brown Chapel \_\_\_\_\_\_ Church is right in the middle of that housing
projects. I grew up in Brown Chapel. It's uhm..- we're Methodist. And
uhm.. it was hard to not to be involved in the movement if you were in
that area or in Brown Chapel. So when- after Dr. King came, we started
marching every day to the courthouse, and the children started marching,
of which I played a big- uh.. I played a part in that because my
sisters- my older sisters- would go and there was no one to babysit me.
\<laughs\> So I had to go too. Which was fine cuz that meant I didn't
have to go to school. I still did not have a clear idea of what uhm.. we
were struggling for, that uh.. this particular battle was on the voting
rights struggle. I knew uhm.. some of the catch phrases- uhm.. one man
one vote- and if we got the right to vote, we could choose people who
looked like us, who understood us, who had lived what we had lived and
knew how- uh.. ideas on how to make it better. It was- at that time, no
African Americans served in any capacity in our- in our city, or the
State for that matter, that I can remember. After uhm.. going to jail
numerous times, uhm.. a young man in Marion was killed, named Jimmy Lee
Jackson- uh.. while we were marching here in Selma. Understand, we were
marching in all the counties around us too. Dr. King had sent
lieutenants to these particular counties. He had sent Reverend James
Orange \[ph?\] to Perry County. Reverend Orange was put in jail, along
with 700 students. And uhm.. when the people here in Selma learned that
Reverend Orange was in jail, Dr. Vivien \[ph?\], who Dr. King had left
here- C.T. Vivien here in Selma- went to Marion to uhm.. preach in
Reverend Orange's stead at the mass meeting that night. I understand
that after that uhm.. mass meeting, the people decided to go to the
jail, to try to save Reverend Orange's life because they heard that they
were gonna lynch him that night. Uhm.. when they left the church, they
were attacked by law enforcement officers. Uh.. Jimmy Lee Jackson's
grandfather had been beaten and he was trying to get him to the
hospital. His mother uh.. tried to help him. A trooper hit her and
Jimmy, without thinking, lunged at the- the trooper to stop him from
hittin' his mother. And I'm sure that's what I would have done. The
trooper shot him. He died 8 days later here in Selma. It was then that
the leaders decided to walk from Selma to Montgomery. Now uhm.. on the
day of uhm.. the first march, which later became known as Bloody Sunday,
it was a rally at the church that morning. I'm not sure I was in the
church when this rally was going on. You have to remember, I was
11-years old- I might have been outside playing. My sister told me later
that uhm.. at- at the church, they told them there was a possibility of
violence. Uhm.. but I didn't know that. So when they assembled, I just
got in the line too. Uhm.. my sister kept trying to get me to- my sister
Linda, kept trying to get me to be with her so that uhm.. we would be
together when we crossed the bridge, and I didn't want to- I wanted to
be with my friends who were closer my- to my age. And she was near the
front. So I get- uhm.. not at the very back but near the back- uhm.. it
may have been 50 people behind us. But when uhm.. we marched down the
street, I noticed it was quiet and nobody was singing the songs. Uhm..
at that age, the spirit of the movement is what moved me- uhm.. what
made me feel like I belonged cuz I loved the songs and I loved the
chants. And uhm.. nobody was singin'. But we walked and kept walking.
And then I don't remember seeing a lot of people- anybody on the street
either. But, of course, it was Sunday, and it's downtown Selma. So the
stores are closed. There is really no reason for a lot of people to be
on the street. But all our other marches, we had policemen everywhere-
uhm.. the sheriff's posse or the State Troopers were always present when
we were marching. We didn't see any of them and we went over the bridge.
When the line stopped, I kept waiting for the front to go on- down. You
see, normal procedure would have been that when we couldn't go any
further, we would kneel and pray. And, of course, bein' so far back, I
couldn't hear what was bein' said, but I could go down when the rest-
when the front went down. Suddenly we heard screams and gunshots. I
thought they were killing uhm.. the people down front. Before we could
turn to run, the front had turned and people were just running
everywhere. But with them came those men, uh.. swinging Billy-clubs,
just hittin' anybody- old, young. And I'm watchin' them hit people and
suddenly uh.. the- the smell of the teargas- the teargas came. We saw
the smoke and when we breathed in the teargas, now we couldn't see and
we couldn't breathe- uh.. the teargas burned my eyes and got in my
lungs. And.. when I could see, all I saw was pandemonium and people were
riding horses- men on horses- running people down. And the horses were
afraid. They were rear-uppin'. If you were in the way, you got trampled
and it was just terrible. Uhm.. a lot of blood. Blood was all over the
bridge. Uhm.. some people say they could hear the bones breaking. But I
don't remember that. I just remember being very, very afraid. And I
couldn't find my sister. I couldn't- I- you know, you would- I couldn't
see anybody that I knew. I didn't know any of the people on the bridge,
it seemed, and afterwards I knew everyone but I didn't know anybody at
that time- I was too afraid. When uhm..- the last thing I remember
seeing is this horse just running full of speed and this lady, as if in
a daze, just stepped right in front of it and the sound of her head
hitting that pavement was too much. I fainted. And when I awakened, I
was on- on this side of the bridge, in a car, with my sister Linda. She
had seen someone carry me across the bridge and she followed uh.. me to
the car. And they put us in the car. It was- uh.. the car belonged to
Mr. and Mrs. Jefferson. Mrs. Jefferson was a nurse at Good Samaritan
Hospital. It seems that uhm.. all the black nurses uhm.. call- called
each other and they came to the foot- foot of the bridge. And uhm.. they
were there to treat us- they knew- uh.. knew- in case it was violent.
Well we were in the car and when I became fully awake, I uhm..- Linda
was- I saw Linda and she was just crying and crying. And when I became
fully awake, I realized what fell on my face was not her tears, it was
her blood. She had been beaten on the bridge and had a wound in her head
that required 18 stitches in the back, and one over her eye that I think
had six. Uhm.. they tried to put us in a ambulance. But you know, uhm..
during segregation, we didn't have the big nice, fancy uh.. Emergency
ambulances the whites had. Uh.. we had to be transported in the hearses.
And uhm.. a hearse drove up and bein' children we were afraid to get in
it. And no matter what they said, we wouldn't get in it. We- we made it
back ho- back to- we- we just started walking. And we couldn't get home
uhm.. the short way, just to go straight there, which would've been only
a few blocks. We had to go all- all the way down and all the way around
because what happened at the bridge, when they started beating at the
bridge, it didn't stop at the bridge. It- it followed us uh.. back into
our neighborhood. And the closest uh.. we could get to home was uh..
First Baptist Church. And uh.. we went into First Baptist where others
had assembled. And we had been in there about an hour, uh.. nursing our
wounds and crying and wondering uhm.. why does it happen? We didn't
understand what we had done to make people treat us like that. And the
police came into the uhm.. church- uh.. a whole bunch of the sheriff's
posse. And they were lookin' for a girl with a red coat. Guess who had
on a burgundy coat? \<laughs\> So he takes this Billy-club. I never-
they lined us up and I've never been so afraid in my life- even more
afraid than I was on the bridge. He took his Billy-club and he lifted
the lapel of my coat and he said, "Is this that nigger?" And I was so
afraid he was gonna say yes. I thought I would just pass out at that
moment. And the guy came in and he said, "No, that's not her." It seemed
some girl with a red coat on had fought back, on the bridge, and uh..
she had hit him with a brick or something \<laughs\> and he was all
scratched up and- and bleeding and red. And they were- uh.. they were
looking for her as- uh.. and they were really, really angry. So when
the- when I was not the person that they were looking for, they
proceeded to run us out of the church. They started beating people
again. They picked a young man up and threw him through the baptismal
pool wall- no water in the- in the pool. He broke his arm. Uhm.. I saw a
lady fall all the way down, the steps, uhm.. at First Baptist. And just
after she fell down those steps, she just lay there as if she were dead.
And we were too afraid to go back and see\.... \<crying\> if she was
alright. And then they started shooting- the- the windows out in the..-
and out the houses across the street, people couldn't come out of their
houses. It was just terrible. Uhm.. it's important to me that the
children know that it just didn't stop at that bridge. It- it just went
on and on, all night long. Excuse me. \<sniffs\>

Q: Are you comfortable?

**Joanne Bland:** Not right now. \<laughs\> \<sniffs\> So, I didn't
see\-- the one of the worst parts about this whole thing was that uhm..
I didn't see my daddy. Uhm.. my grandmother had moved by this time to
uhm.. Uniontown and.. I didn't see my daddy. I couldn't find- we
couldn't find him. And \<sniffs\> we didn't know whether people were
dead or what. And we couldn't get to the house. So we couldn't- and it
turned out Daddy wasn't there anyway. They didn't- after it started,
they didn't let people back into that area. If you came into that area,
you were subject to be beaten up or what. \<sniffs\> And we didn't see
him till the next day. I thought\-- uh.. I needed that comfort uhm..
that my sisters couldn't give and I- I didn't get it, uh.. because we-
he couldn't get home. And it wasn't that he wasn't trying, he just
couldn't get back into the- uh.. the area. And that Tuesday, I think,
Dr. King came back and uhm..- huh- it's so funny. My daddy told me
that.. I didn't want any more freedom. Uh.. whatever change was gonna be
made, I didn't wanna play no more. Prior to that, it was fun- and even
going to jail. But after that, I didn't wanna do it anymore. And my
daddy told me if I- if I didn't go back, it would mean they won. And I
was so competitive with my sisters and brothers\-- you see, I'm like the
middle child. \<laughs\> And I was always the competitive one and uh..
he knew that uhm.. it would make me wanna win. So he said, "If you- if
you don't go, it means they won." So I went back to the church and when
they left, I hopped in the line again. And \<sniffs\> when we went
across the bridge, we were waiting. But I- I held Linda's hand this time
and then she didn't have to worry about me bein' anywhere else but with
her. I held her hand. And my dad also told me he would be on the other
side waiting for me- when we'd get on the other side, he'd be there and
nobody would bother us. Right? So, you know, your dad can move mountains
and when I went over the bridge, I kept lookin' for him and all I saw
was these white men in uniform. But it didn't occur to me uhm.. that he
couldn't get over. He told me that and I believed it, so I went. And
this time though the front went down cuz I saw the policemen this time.
I didn't see them before. I saw- I could see the line of policemen and I
could see the posse. I could see all these cameras and all this stuff.
Before, I didn't see any of that and uh.. when the front went down, we
kneeled and we prayed and uhm.. then when the front stood up, we stood
up but the line didn't move and suddenly we saw Dr. King and Dr.
Abernathy at the front line, coming back across the bridge. And.. we
didn't know what was goin' on. But I- and I think I was the only person
on the bridge that day that was relieved \<laughs\> that they turned
around. But uhm.. when we got back to the church, I understand they had
a mass meeting and he uhm.. told us that he had applied for the Court
Order to- uh.. where we'd have the legal right to- to go. And then on
March 21^st^, when they got ready to go to Montgomery, I got in the line
again. \<laughs\> I got in line again, with Linda. But Linda was goin'
all the way. And I walked with Linda\-- uh.. they said we could walk the
first leg. So I walked with uh.. Linda the first leg. And then we got on
buses and they brought us back. And then that Friday night, the last
night of the march, we went over to Montgomery, to St. Jude, and then
the next morning we walked the last leg- from St. Jude to the capital.
And then when the Voting Rights Act was signed, it was sort of like
uhm..- I don't know the phrase or the word- anti-climatic or something
that it uhm..- it- it was so much and then they signed the Act and you
say \<laughs\> and then it's over. You know? Uhm.. but it\-- I- I don't
know. I guess I- I expected 4^th^ of July or something. I wanted it to
be just as uh.. dramatic as Bloody Sunday was. And uhm.. it wasn't.
Uhm.. the adults were happy. The kids were like, "Okay, now what
happens?" And uhm.. it- I just felt it was over after that. And I never
thought today I'd be sitting here telling somebody about it and that
it'd still affect me. But. \<sniffs\>

Q: So you didn't realize how significant your contribution was at the
time?

**Joanne Bland:** No. No. Not at all. Uhm.. when- when you think about
the heroes and sheroes of this particular movement, uhm.. and people
talk about how brave the children were, uh.. you- you sort of take that
with a grain of salt because adults knew uhm.. what they were getting
into. Uhm.. here in Selma, we were fighting the people who uhm.. our
parents worked for, and our parents were fighting the people they worked
for. Uh.. one of the ways to stifle the movement would- was to fire
people from their jobs uh.. if they participated in the movement. And
the adults that came out anyway, knew that their livelihoods were in
danger, that they could be hung, killed, in- in some horrible way-
disappear forever, and their families would be- be left uh.. without any
help. But yet they still got up and did it. So those are my- the real
heroes of this movement. To me, the adults and uhm.. the older young
people who understood what uh.. the implications of what they were
doing. We didn't understand. Uhm.. I didn't understand. I should speak
for myself. Uh.. between 8 and 11, of course you don't understand what
happens. You just feel that you're a part of it and that uhm.. I- I was
fighting for my freedom. That was the- the catchword- fighting for my
freedom, freedom to do the things I couldn't do. I knew uh.. from
specific incidents in uhm.. those years that because of the color of my
skin, I couldn't do a lot of things. Now with this freedom that I was
getting, I was supposed to be able to do those things. One of 'em- them
was to go to the library or check out books. And my grandmother fostered
a love for us of reading. And uhm.. she would bring magazines and books
from the houses that she worked in. And we had this whole big library
that I couldn't go in but uh.. once a week. And when I could go in it, I
still couldn't check out the books, so I still had a problem. And our
schools were so inadequate- uhm..-ly uh.. equipped with books, I
couldn't get them from school either. So even if I read in a magazine
about a book that I wanted to read, I couldn't get it. And growin' up
poor, it's not like you're gonna run to the bookstore-
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ to run to the bookstore to get you a book
either. So those are the things I thought I was fighting for. Those
uhm..- my freedom to do the things that other children did who didn't
have the same skin tone as I had.

Q: Everyone suffered a lot of injustices. What are some examples that we
should be sharing with people who want to know this history?

**Joanne Bland:** \<sniffs\> Segregation was tough when you really look
back on it. Uhm.. I don't know who thought of these things. Uhm.. one
was that uhm.. this- uh.. the building that we're doing this taping in
used to be a- a movie theater. And uhm.. I've never been down here
before. But uh.. we could come to the movies but we had to go from the
outside upstairs. And uhm.. this was one of the stupid things of uh..
segregation. They would put the blacks upstairs and we had the best view
of everything, and the things we used to put down on their heads
\<laughs\> I can't even mention on camera and any other time. Uhm..
every time we left the movies, we had to run, uh.. because there'd
always be a fight of uh..- because we've ruined somebody's clothing or
they realized exactly what we put on them. So it was always a- a- a
biggie. The uhm..- one specific incident that comes to mind is a grocery
store that used to be over in G.W.C. Homes- right at the edge of G.W.C.
Homes- and it was called Gaston's IGA at that time. My grandmother asked
me to go to the store to get uhm.. a uhm..- ground beef for dinner. She
gave me the dollar. Now that might not seem like much but I was the next
to the youngest child. Right? And I had these older sisters that always
carried the money and always ordered. I could go to the store with them,
but I never had the important role of carrying the money and going
alone. Right? This particular day, Grandmother gave me the money and
told me to go. I looked behind because I thought she was talking to one
of my sisters- no one was there, so she's talkin' to me. I left the
house filled with importance cuz now I'm a big girl. Right? Uhm.. as I
got out the door, Grandmother came to the door and she said, "Don't
tarry." I knew that meant go straight there- don't- don't stop and play
with your friends. And it wasn't easy because we lived at one end of
G.W.C. Homes, and the store was at the opposite end. So now I gotta pass
all my friends playing \<laughs\>- not stop, don't talk. But since I'm a
big girl, I could do this. I held that money tight in my pocket and I
wouldn't take my hand off it and I rushed to the store, cuz I had to do
this right or she wouldn't trust me anymore. So I got in and see
Gaston's they had a meat counter that uh.. you could go in and order how
much of something you wanted. So I go to the counter. Nobody's there, as
luck would have it. And I said, "I want a dollar's worth of ground
beef." And the guy took a scoop and he stuck it in the ground beef and
he put it on a piece of paper. And just as he did that, a lady came up
on the right hand side, pushing a buggy- a white lady- and he looked
over and he saw her. He put my meat on the scale. And he had not seen
her for \<laughing\> years and years. He ran from behind the counter and
he grabbed her and they were just huggin' and talkin' and- uh.. both at
the same time- real excited about seeing each other. He proceeded to ask
her about everybody on her side of the family and she in turn did him.
And for a few minutes there it was alright because I was distracted by
uh.. the display. But uhm.. soon I realized that, you know, it's taking
a long time. He needs to give me my meat so I could go home. But growin'
up during segregation didn't give me that voice to say that uh.. "If you
give me my meat, I'll leave" or "Hey, did you forget me?" I- I didn't. I
was not raised that way. I knew I couldn't say that and then that it'd
might get real ugly if I did. So I stood there and waited. She looked
over in the meat counter and she saw some pork chops and he did
something I had never seen in my entire life. He took that whole tray
out and presented it to her. I had never seen him do my grandmother like
that. When she ordered pork chops, he'd just get whatever's on top, put
it on the thing and give it to her. Right? He picked through each one
and got the nice pork chops out. Right? "That one's beautiful. Give me
that one right there." Da-da-da-da-da. And when he put the pork chops on
the paper, he saw my meat on the scale. He picked it up and sat it to
the side and put her pork chops there. I said, "Okay." But by now I'm
getting worried because Grandmother's gonna think I'm playing somewhere.
Excuse me. She said, "Oh you know what? Give me one of those chickens."
And she proceeded to fill her whole entire meat order while I'm standing
there. And finally, after hours it seemed- it- it was only a few minutes
I'm sure, now that I'm an adult- but after what seemed like hours to a
8-year-old, he comes around and he hugs her and they promise to see each
other that night. And he- when she turns to leave, he sees me and he
says, "Oh." By now I have this huge lump in my throat cuz I know
Grandmother's not gonna trust me again- she's gonna think I'm a baby,
that I can't do what she told me to do and it's not my fault. Finally he
just- he picked up the meat and just wrapped it up and said, "Here." And
he had written a dollar on the paper. So I took- I ran up to the front
and I paid for it and I ran all the way home. But the closer I got to
home, the worse I felt- that Grandmother was gonna be fussin'- she's
gonna say that I played- da-da-da-da-da. And when I got- by the time I
opened that front door, I was hysterical- I was just cryin' and cryin'
and I was trying to tell her that I didn't stop and play, I went
straight there, I did everything she told me to do. And she saw how
upset I was. Now my grandmother was a fat woman, she was soft like a
pillow, and she picked me up and she put on her lap and she pulled me to
her breast and she said, "Don't worry baby. Things are gonna change
soon. It's alright. Don't cry." And I felt alright. I had no idea that
the very next week she would take me to my first mass meeting, and that
was the beginning of the change that uh.. she was talking about.

Q: Tell us a little bit about the mass meetings and the importance of
the church.

**Joanne Bland:** Well you know, during that time, uh.. we didn't have
places we could go and gather- uh.. very few places that uh..
African-Americans could host huge events. The churches were uhm.. our
meeting places that uhm.. ministers at that time played huge parts in-
in uhm.. any change that went on in our community because on Sunday
you've got a ready audience and you've got a captive, then that's the
time to teach not only the spiritual principles but uh.. the physical
prin- uh- uh.. principles of up- uplifting yourself. Uhm.. and then- and
that's the way the preachers were then. I don't know one that was not-
that uhm.. it was not just a spiritual part. But when the mass meetings
began at uhm..\-- the very first mass meeting was at Tabernacle. And
then Dr. King headquartered at uhm.. Brown Chapel. But all the churches-
I can't think of many churches in Selma that didn't have a- a mass
meeting at it- uh.. there. Uhm.. Dr. King might not have spoken at all
of 'em but Dr. King wasn't here a whole lot. Uhm.. but they had mass
meetings and rallies there. So.. when we started going to the- the mass
meetings- the mass meetings were fun too- uhm.. the songs were the best
part. You know, those preachers gettin' up talking to a child ain't so
handsome, but the songs, the wonderful music of that time. Uhm.. one of
the uhm.. SCLC workers, Jimmy Webb- uh.. Jimmy is short in stature and
he was only about 16 at the time. He had already graduated from college
so he was like the man for us- he was about our size. And he uhm..- he
taught us that- he taught us the freedom songs and he taught us how we
could make up verses for those songs. So we made- we felt like we were a
part of the whole thing that uh..- you knew how it felt to- that you
stood on the playground, with Jimmy Webb, and you made up a voice for a
song and you get that at night at the mass meeting and the whole crowd-
this church is packed- and the whole crowd is singing your words- you
know what that does to a person? That you made up this- this verse for
this song and they're singing it. The spirit of the mass meetings\-- the
mass meetings were uhm.. not only places to strategize- meetings to
strategize- they were meetings.. to gather information, and they were
motivational. Uh.. and the motivating part is the part that I liked- the
singing, the songs, the chants, the phrases, the anger of uhm.. the- the
oppressed. When people\-- the ministers would get up and say, "We're not
taking that anymore" and the people would say, "Amen", you know, and the
whole church would be- uh.. it was- it's just awesome. It's hard to
describe a mass meeting, except for the spirit.

Q: We're actually going to go to the Tabernacle this weekend. Joanne,
you've obviously been through a lot personally. But your real
contribution is today, at the museum and all the people that come and
see you. What do you want them to walk away with?

**Joanne Bland:** The feeling- one- first and foremost, the struggle is
not over. That playing field is still not level, uhm.. and that for
every right that has been gained, there was a struggle, and to continue
to struggle to keep gaining rights until all people share the same
rights. Uhm.. I- with the museum, I think uhm.. our- our main focus and
our vision is to make sure that people know the lessons from the past-
what we did right, what we did wrong, what worked, what didn't work- and
take those same lessons and make today better- period- and particularly
the children.

Q: Oh we're going to expose you to about a dozen or so on Thursday and
we're really looking forward to that.

**Joanne Bland:** Okay.

Q: What would be your premise to that? What would you talk to them
about?

**Joanne Bland:** As uhm.. a child uhm.. \<laughs\>- to coin- to uhm..
steal somebody's phrase- as a child of the movement, I can only share my
stories- uhm.. the movement through my eyes. And uhm.. over the years,
it has worked because history comes alive then. It's not something you
read about. It's- it's uhm..- it's what I saw with my eyes and I take
you through that history and some people say I'm a very good
storyteller, so I- I keep it interesting.

Q: Well I can attest to that personally. When you have the chance to sit
down with them one-on-one, what are we trying to pass on to them?

**Joanne Bland:** The legacy of the past, and- and that uhm.. with the
people who went before them, they owe us uhm..- that to continue this
struggle, that they- with the lessons of the past, they can see we tried
to make it right. It just didn't happen yet. But they are gonna have to
be the one to pick up the torch and go on and make it right. And that
has no color. Uhm.. they like to say these particular struggles were
Black struggles, but they were not. They were people struggles because
poor people of any kind, any color, could not vote, because of poll
taxes. And because of the way uhm.. our society was set up, most women
didn't vote because if you- if uhm..- the man was the head of the
household and he chose what happened in the political arena, and so
women didn't vote. With the signing of the Voting Rights Act, that
removed the obstacles for them too. We fought this movement primarily
because it benefited us as a whole. But if you look at the pictures and
uhm.. read about the history of it, it was not a Black movement- it was
a people movement. And the future has to be a people movement, until
injustice is stamped out in any form. We're- we're still strugglin'. But
not just a civil rights struggle, but all the struggles that we have had
in the history of the United States, that we need to take those lessons,
teach them to our children, and let them take them and make a better
future. And with the museum, I hope that's uh.. what I do. Uh.. there's
this phrase that says, "Mighty rivers are drop- are filled, drop by
drop." And I think if we add enough drops to that river, we'll have a
raging river that'll just wash this stuff away once and for all. But we
have to equip, our children, to do it. That uh.. we're not gonna be here
forever. They have to have the mind- same mindset that we do. If we pass
those legacies on, they too must pass them on, with the addition of
their history of struggle. And soon we won't have to pass anything at
all because we won't be struggling for anything. It'll be that beloved
community that Dr. King was striving for, that I still believe we can
get.

Q: Dr. King was working on a lot of fronts and a lot of issues he really
forecast into the future, not just voting rights but a whole list of
things. How are we doing on his checklist?

**Joanne Bland:** Sometimes it's- uh- uh.. sometimes when you look at
it, you get discouraged. Uh.. but it depends on who looks at it.
Uhm\.... I have a real problem with uh.. people not voting. And uhm..
from my history of living and growing up here in Selma, you can
understand why. I don't think people should have been beaten on that
bridge to give a person the right to vote and now you don't exercise it.
But in return, I still understand that even though I got the right to
vote, I didn't see any changes. I didn't see any changes. It was 7 years
later before any changes in our city government happened. So now
\<laughs\> if it took 7 years for a city government to change- and that
was not at the real leader- leadership uh.. level\-- like the mayor- we
only got- we only changed the mayors from this particular movement in
2000, in a city that's predominantly African-American. Something's wrong
with that. \<laughs\> Something's wrong with that. So I get discouraged
when I think about that. But if I get discouraged and let it weigh me
down and not go out there and- and find out why you didn't go vote, or
try to devise a- a way that would make you wanna vote, when you don't
have a job, when you're still living in poverty- that uhm.. when you
have all these ills that are personal to you, voting's probably the last
thing on your mind. But I need to find a way to politically educate you
enough to know that if you.. participate in this process, and you foster
that participation in every generation in your house and you keep doin'
it and keep doin' it, there is gonna be some change. We are not where we
were- we just ain't where we used to be. Okay? So uhm..\-- and I- I- and
I paraphrased that wrong. I should say, we're not where we were, but we
just ain't where you- we need to be. Okay? Now if- if we cease to
struggle, to try to make that change, who's gonna do it for us? Nobody's
gonna do it for us. So we are gonna have to be the ones to make that
change ourselves. But we, in turn, have to teach generations that come
after us that they have a duty to do that too, to make this world right.
And that's my drop. That's what I try to do.

Q: How many issues do you think are ahead of us? Do you have some
specific ones?

**Joanne Bland:** Oh, lot's of 'em. Uhm..- huh- lot's of 'em. Uhm.. the
one I'd like to uhm.. really put forth is the educational system here in
the United States. One of our greatest ills, uhm.. particularly in uh..
pub- the public school arena is that we separate our children when they
need to be getting to know each other. That uhm.. if you grow up lookin'
at people like you all the time, you will never know people that don't
look like you. You will never understand that I'm the same as you- I'm
just in a different package- that I hurt, I cry, I feel, I'm good
sometimes, or maybe sometimes I'm bad. But the people who look like you
are the same. There's the same ills in our communities that are in all
communities. And when we- when we separate our children- cuz children
don't care, they don't care who they play with. They could be with
uhm..- you could be a- a little orange man from Mars or somewhere and
they- if they're having fun, they don't care who it is. Whatever they
have at that age, we need to try to keep it and let it grow up in them,
because you have wonderful things that- in you and in your- within your
culture that my child needs to know. I have wonderful things within my
culture that your child needs to know. And once they grow up together
and they share those- those cultures, they know each other. It's im\--
now, today, with our educational system and with people allowing their
kids to be separated, when they get back together in real life, after
school, you still don't know me. \<laughs\> You're still afraid of me.
You still believe all that garbage you hear. You uhm.. bel- you just
believe the hype. And then we never get back together. We're always
struggling against each other, when it's a people struggle- not my
struggle, your struggle- it's our struggle. And until we change that
educational system. Uh.. people who put kids in white school cite- uh..
in white schools- I'm sorry- in private school, cite uhm.. different
reasons. The- the school system's not good enough for them. So rather
than you change the school system, you will put your child in a private
school. What about the poor kids who can't afford to go to private
school? So you just leave them out there to fail. That's the way our-
the United States has been set up from the beginning. Somebody has to
fail. Somebody has to be the underdog. When are we gonna stop that? That
if it's not good enough for your child, it darn sure shouldn't be good
enough for my child. And we should be working together to change it. Why
would you wanna pay from 3 to 20 thousand dollars a year for a child to
go to school when your tax money pays for schooling? Make it the best it
can be. Have them- \<laughs\> I don't think the curriculums at the
private schools are sacred. I don't think- most of 'em that I've uhm..
compared their curriculums, not even good as- good- as good as some of
the sys- uh.. school systems we have. Why would you put all that money
in there instead of making a- a system that's fair and good for
everybody, that you don't have to pay for? That's just ridiculous to me.
And I don't know how to change that. We've never had a battle for
education. When I was growing up, I was in the 7^th^ grade- 7^th^ grade.
I helped to integrate the white high school here- me along with 7
others. That was the first time I got a brand new book, that I could
write my name in it for the- on the first line. All the other times, I
had to use the books that had been used at the white schools for 4
years, and they got new books every 4 years. We got their old books, and
we used them for 4 years. So I'm already- what?- 8 years behind when I
get the first new book. Period. People talk about affirmative action.
Say, you know, "We've done this and we've done that." You ain't had no
business doin' that in the first place. If you hadn't made it wrong, you
wouldn't have to make it right now. But how you gonna tell me that we've
gone far enough with concessions when by the time I got my first new
book, I was 8 years behind? Now what about all those people who had gone
before me? How far behind are they? And you think you've paid your debt
by now allowing me to uhm.. get some slots in college? You mis-educated
me where you say, well we're not qualified- and you're a whole part of
that system. And people like to say, "Oh, you know, that wasn't me. I
didn't have anything to do with that." You ain't payin' for that. I pay
taxes just like you do. If it had been right in the first place, we
wouldn't be strugglin' now. So level the playing field now. Let's get
rid of all this nonsense now. I don't want my child to be no better than
anybody else's child. I don't wanna have- him to have any more
opportunity than any other child. But you can't start bein' fair to me
when the race track is on my child's side goin' up, and yours is level.
Period. Where you can just walk straight, my child got to struggle up a
hill. You can't start now talkin' about bein' fair. Period. Catch me up,
then make it fair. If my child starts the same time your child starts,
and has the same opportunities your child has, if my child fail, nothin'
to be said. But when my child is strugglin' up hill and yours just
walkin' with ease, I got a real problem with that.

Q: I know you were a teacher involved in schooling. Have you made some
progress in that area?

**Joanne Bland:** Depends. Uhm.. yeah, cuz now I get a new book.
\<laughs\> My child got a new book. Uhm.. the school buildings are
better- what's inside the school buildings don't necessarily have to be
better. Uhm.. teachers have been uhm.. almost put into restraints. With
uh.. segregation though, because we didn't have books and stuff, uh.. we
had a better style of teaching because teachers had to teach. Now they
have uhm.. almost to the day what they supposed to be teaching. You
know? Uhm.. whether the child \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ or not. And then you got
these stupid tests that you gotta pass at the end of uhm..- to see have
you learned it. If you don't pass the test, you don't graduate. I heard
a example last graduating season, in Hale County- excuse me- in one of
the blackbelt counties, one of our poorest blackbelt counties. How about
the valedictorian who couldn't walk? \<laughs\> She didn't pass the exit
exam. How can you be the val of your class and not walk? Period.
Couldn't pass the exit exam. So does that mean her grade- that she
didn't learn anything, somebody just gave her a grade, or did they just
not teach what they're testing them on? That's a real problem- a real
problem. Then we had tracking. Uhm.. \<laughs\> the people who make
rules in our uhm.. society, since I'm surrounded by white men, uhm.. I
don't know what they be thinking sometimes. They decided that now that
we have integration, that my child has to go school with their children,
we're gonna find another way to segregate them. So around 1972, a system
was put into uhm.. the schools. It was called leveling- you know, you're
on level one, you're on level two, you're on advanced, uhm.. you're on
uhm.. general, you're on special- in- in special education. Well here at
Selma we had four levels. So you received four different diplomas
\<laughs\> as a- at uh.. Selma High. You received special education- you
know, you would go to school 12 years meaning you- you really have a
real learning disability, but you can only go until you're like 18 and
then they give you a little certificate. Uh.. level two is one step
above uh.. special education- by the time you were in the 5^th^ grade,
you had learned everything you were gonna learn by the time you got to
the 12^th^ grade. Then they had level three, which really challenged you
a little bit, but you still could not take certain classes- uhm.. like
higher maths, uhm.. higher sciences, you couldn't do it. Then you had
uhm.. level four that prepared you for college, but that's where the
smart people were. Here in Selma, on level two, all African American.
Level three- didn't even have the decency to make it half and half- it
was like 80/20. And how 'bout level One- you got 98% white children.
That told my child that every black child in Selma was stupid and all
the white kids in Selma, except those five that they had on the other
levels, were smart. Then, our children started.. going to school, making
trouble, selling drugs, getting pregnant, and guess who they blame? The
parents. They said we were not raising our children. You know darn well
black folks raise their children. We raised you all. So you know darn
well we can raise ours. Period. You didn't turn out so bad. Why my child
got to turn out so bad? You see what I'm sayin'? Now, when we found out
in- we were upset. This started like in 1972, as soon as integration
came. I was- I was angry, to say the least, uhm.. about it. Our children
dropping out of school. First they can't pass the college entrance exam-
they can't even get out of school, because you have not prepared them. I
trusted you, which was stupid. You the same people I was fightin' for
every right that I had- that I have now- and I'm gonna trust you with my
most precious commodity, my child, and expect you to do right by them.
So now all these years have passed, you've damaged generations of
children, and you blaming me. Darn right I was mad. I was not just
angry. I was mad. I wanted to hurt somebody. When we found that out, we
demanded a fair curriculum. We said, "Uh-uh." And guess what? There was
no criteria for placement. No criteria. You could look at my child and
say, "He needs to be in Level Three." And there he goes to Level Three.
He starts school in 1^st^ grade at Level Three, by the time he get to
12^th^ grade, he's bored as hell. When children get bored, they act up.
Hell, when grown people get bored, they act up. So what do you expect
from a child? The child is bored. Period. Then you wasn't prepared to go
anywhere else and you've got this little diploma either- cuz you
couldn't pass- pass a college entrance exam. You have not been prepared.
So now you've got all these people walking around the street with this
little piece of paper that said they graduated from high school and
where are they gonna get a job at? So you compounded the problem. Now
here we are, stupid enough to trust in you again, and now we got this
huge problem and not only did we trust you to do it right, you in turn,
turn around and blame me for it. So yeah, we were angry. And uhm..- no-
but prior to that time, the school system was integrated. Now, here in
Selma, uh.. I think we have four black- white kids at Selma High and
they're orphans, from a orphanage here- can't afford to go to the..- the
coll- the private schools, uhm.. and nobody's makin' any effort to
improve our school system- oh they'll tell you they are. \<laughs\>
They'll tell you they are but they're not. I remember going to Selma
High when my son was there and in the room where I was meeting with the
teacher, the ceiling tiles were falling and it was- the walls were
awful. And I said, "Now who would want to come in here every day?" This
isn't a environment that my child would like to come in every day. No
wonder he doesn't want to spend any time at school." Period. Now we
couldn't change uhm.. that system, although we tried. We fought. We
turned Selma out. You would have thought it was the 60's all over again,
going to jail, everything- marching. But uhm.. couldn't change it. Uhm..
they fired the superintendent who was African American uh.. who not
necessarily didn't want the system to leave because he didn't believe
children could all learn at the same level. He uhm..- they had one
criteria put in place. So he had to go. \<laughs\> And uhm.. then we
finally got the superintendent we have now and uhm.. he has made a lotta
effort. Uhm.. it's just that when there's no money. When whites leave a
school, the money's gone. That's the bottom line. Cuz uhm.. not because
there's \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ money in our community- that the state is
always short of money when it comes to education for public school
because now white children are in- in- in there. If whites kids were in
there, they'd make special concessions and make sure enough money is
there. So it's a no-win situation. That's why voting is important. We
gotta get these people out. We- we have to vote for people who will
change that, who will make sure that all children have a fair ed-
education, not just the children that look like them.

Q: We're talking about statistics- that kind of 18 to 25- we were told
somewhere around 27% voted in \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. How can we....

**Joanne Bland:** Unless there's a critical issue in Selma, Alabama.
\<laughs\> They have to be fired up to come out. Okay? So we try to
create that assign- uh.. that excitement. Uhm.. this has nothing to do
with the museum. I belong to uhm.. some other organizations that uhm.. -
that I work faithfully in to try to create that excitement. I think
uhm.. if you don't put a issue out there, people aren't comin' out.
Uhm.. if you don't relate to them how it relates personally, to you,
there's not an issue. You see uhm.. when there was no big change after
this big war they called the Voting Rights struggle- right?- uh.. people
became disillusioned. They still didn't have jobs. They still went to
work for those same people they were fighting- had to because there were
no jobs- period. Throughout the years, I don't- uhm.. throughout the
years, we've made some progress but not as a whole. We still have the
same poor people. If you go over in the G- G.W.C. Homes, you see the
same people who were then when I was growin' up, or their children. So
the cycle continues, on. And it's hard to tell a person when they're
down, you know, you need to vote. Period. That.. in the scheme of
things.. is not gonna happen. What I do, uh.. particularly with uh..
young people is uhm.. you have to make it really simple. We talk about
goin' to the store and uhm.. usually they come in. When you're goin' on
a- a trip, you have on your- your best clothes, your new clothes- you're
gonna get something new to wear on this trip. So- and you can always
spot the new clothes. \<laughs\> You say, "Oh- oh, I love that shirt.
Where'd you get it from?" "At home." "What was the name of the store?"
"Uhm.. Sears." I said, "Oh, okay. How much was it- you don't mind me
askin' you?" "\$10.99." I said, "Oh, so when you went up to the counter,
you gave her a ten dollar bill and a dollar and she gave you a penny
back." "No mam. I had to pay taxes." "Taxes, what's that?" And then you
find out who determines taxes- who determines how much taxes you pay?
And they all know the answer- the government. Who determines the
government? Voters. \<laughs\> And when it starts to relate to simple
things- it could be a soda- and it becomes crystal clear that, "Okay,
I'm making sure he's \_\_\_\_\_\_\_." You know? Our taxes are 9 cent
here in Selma. I vote. I haven't been able to change that. But they're 9
cent. If enough of people who look like me who don't wanna pay that 9
cent vote, maybe we could get it back down to 5 cent and they'll find
the money- just like they used to find it when it was 5 cent \<laughs\>
and pay for this other stuff they need the 4 cent for. And then I have 4
more cents, that I can spend on things that I need, that I in turn, when
I have enough 4 cents can pay some more taxes on. You see what I'm
saying? But if children don't relate those things- and young people as a
whole don't do that. Remember, I told you we gave our children to ya all
to educate but it just ain't in uhm.. our neighborhood. White children
don't vote either. Young vote- they don't vote- for what? They say, you
know, white people are more ed- educated than us at times. They say,
"What are the choices?" \<laughs\> "I don't like- they all lie, they all
do this and they all do that." Well my people feel the same way. We just
say- say, what difference is it gonna make? Period. But you can't
keep\-- I think it's \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, their basketball players,
they used to miss all the time on the free zone and he'd say- you say,
"Why you keep trying?" And he'd say, "You gotta keep on shooting, you
might make one." And so I gotta keep on shootin'- I might get one.

Q: What do you think about- you said discouragement early on. What about
the 2000 election? What message did that send to young people?

**Joanne Bland:** Oh please.

Q: Was that good or bad?

**Joanne Bland:** That was so funny. Uhm.. possibly nothing. Let me tell
you why. Uhm.. the Voting Rights Act was signed August 6, 1965. Right?
An election was held in '66, and I started complaining then. You know, I
use that uh.. in the sense of my people- started complainin' then- "Oh
they're cheatin'. \<laughs\> Oh, they're doin' this. Oh they're doin'
that." People came in and they couldn't find enough fraud so they just
went away. But for 35 years I've been telling you the same things that
happened in Florida in 2000 and you ain't do nothin' about it. Right?
And then you thought I was gonna be upset in 2000 when them two rich
white boys were fighting about the presidency and then somebody
appointed Bush. I wasn't upset at all cuz now it's in your neighborhood
and you're gonna do somethin' about it. You see what I'm saying? When-
as long as it was affecting me, you didn't care. And you want me to
believe the charge to be outraged. To hell with 'em. I didn't need- you
know, I don't think young people even care cuz they- you know, that's
what they've been hearing all their lives, particularly in my
neighborhood. It didn't affect us, didn't- did- uhm.. you heard this
little mumble and then that was it. Didn't you all wonder why black
people were not enraged \<laughs\> that they appointed a president and
that all these practices were exposed? We were darn happy. It's about
time. It was the same way with drugs. Uhm.. in the early '40's, '50's
and '60's, and '70's, we had the cheap drugs like we got now. You know,
in our neighborhood they were killin' our children at alarming numbers.
Right? And all we could do was bury our babies and cry. When integration
came \<laughs\> and our children started goin' to school together. So
our children bringin' the cheap drugs, uh.. the other set bringin' the-
the good drugs- they interchanging drugs. So now the cheap drugs has
gotten into your neighborhood. Wasn't it about 70-something when it
became fashionable to say, just say no. \<laughs\> Just say no. You
know- billions of dollars was spent on this campaign to stop the cheap
drugs because now it's in your neighborhood. If you had stopped that
cheating mess when I first told you about it, it wouldn't have gotten to
2000. Who cares? I don't think it affected our children at all. Do you?
\<laughs\>

Q: We interviewed the other day Mayor Perkins and he mentioned that
there is going to be a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ called reconciliation. I'd like
your reaction to that.

**Joanne Bland:** You don't want me to talk about that on camera.
\<laughs\> Reconciliation. That's a wonderful word uhm.. and I hope he's
successful, uhm.. in doing this. Uhm.. what I find in most of these- and
Mayor Perkins is really innovative, he may have a way that uhm.. has not
been tried. I certainly hope so. Uhm.. what I find is missing outta all
these reconciliations, or gatherings, is true dialogue. You know? Uhm..
you know, put all the ills on the table and discuss it and come to some
solution how to get rid of it or how we can live- that if you gotta have
a portion of it, and then I need most of it gone, then we oughta be able
to come to some way that both of us'll be comfortable, and that's
reconciliation to me. Uh.. most of- most of the things that uhm.. they
have, particularly here in Selma, you don't have that true dialogue, you
don't have uhm.. the ills to come out and- and we thrash them about and
see how we could get rid of 'em. And uhm.. they just wanna pray and hold
hands. I ain't got time to pray and hold hands- I'm strugglin'. But
uhm.. I'm sure the mayor will have uh- uh.. a innovative way that I
don't have to just stand there and pray. I wanna pray after I see some
real change and I- I want to continue to pray for that change but I
wanna be standing there because my hand is uh.. black and yours is white
and we- we have reconciled. We have not. Not until all those ills are
gone, not only in my community but your community too. And I hope he's
successful cuz I'm gonna vote for him again, in case he sees this film.
\<sniffs\>

Q: Let me ask you, what do you expect out of this coming election? It's
hotly contested. Are there issues that are being expressed?

**Joanne Bland:** No. You know, I've never been \<laughs\>- I shouldn't
say that about the Selma election. The Presidential election, I have
never been so disinterested in a election in my entire life. Right? Uh..
I kinda feel like that about Selma, uhm.. in a way- maybe not on that
same- at that same level but in a way I kinda feel about that too. I
just think Perkins is gonna win without much uh.. craziness, uhm.. and
that the things he has begun and the things he has uhm.. done since he's
been in, that uhm.. you can't do in four years- you can't undo hundreds
of years of this in four years. So, and he's made a great start and done
some wonderful things here in Selma. He just needs to do it some more. I
don't want him to be mayor for 36 years now- hint, hint. \<laughs\> Cuz
I don't think nobody should be a mayor that long. But I do think that
four years is not enough to uhm..- to really judge what he's gonna-
what- his potential, because he has done some wonderful things in Selma.
Like we lost almost a thousand jobs. He maybe- uh.. he- he has about 800
of them back now. You know? Uhm.. we had uhm.. massive white flight when
the people- \<laughs\> when- when he was elected, you know. Uhm.. we
have a new city in Dallas County that's been incorporated- Valley Grand,
because the white people moved to Valley Grand so they wouldn't be under
his leadership. Uhm.. we lost- but they still work in Selma. I want them
to work in Valley Grand \<laughs\>. So. And take their stuff to Valley
Grand. Give people who don't have a job who are loyal to Selma to uhm..
those jobs. But that's just my personal thing. And uhm.. that has
stopped. I have seen uhm.. things- I've been in Selma again since 1989.
And I have seen things I've never thought I would see- uhm.. whites and
blacks workin' together, uhm.. and doing things, not just the surface
things you see in most cities, holding hands and somebody keeps your
program- I mean, real working together to build a community, to build a
city. So in re- in- in short, I've seen what I\'ve taught my son to
struggle for, I\'ve seen it here in Selma, I know we can work together,
that, uh, when they talk reconciliation, I don\'t think you can bring up
the bridge without a political statement. Uh, that you can\'t bring up
education without saying something about the inadequacies in schools,
and doing something\--

\[audio cuts off abruptly\]

\#### End of CD 12A \####