Q: Mrs. Jackson if you would start by introducing yourself, tell us a
little about yourself.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** My name is Richie Jean Sherrod Jackson. I am a
citizen of First World then of Selma, Alabama. I\'ve been living here
for quite some number of years and taught school for 30 years. So I have
been around the corner a couple of times.

Q: Take us back to the late 50's or early 60's what was it like living
in Selma as an African-American?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** As an African-American growing up in the south
you more or less had experiences or had been taught to know what you
could and could not do. Where you could or could not go. Where you would
or would not be appreciated and or accepted. So you sort of knew, even
though you knew that that was wrong but you had to accept the culture of
the times.

Q: Was there racism that was over then?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Oh sure, oh sure. You uh.. experienced things
every day that was racism. You knew what you could do and what\-- where
you could go into a restaurant for instance, there were white
restaurants and there were black restaurants. In the early 50's and in
the latter part, there were restaurants that you knew to just keep
passing by because you would not be served as a front door guest. You
could go around the back sometimes and put in an order and get it out of
the back door but as far as being seated as a patron it was not
accepted.

Q: I understand in theaters there was segregation?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yes there was. They uh.. the black clientele
had to go up into the balcony while uh.. the whites sat down on the
floor. This was a known pattern, so when you attempted to go to the
movies that's what you did, you went up to the balcony.

Q: Your schools were segregated?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yes, true, true.

Q: What was the difference between the white school and an
African-American school?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** The African-American schools in most parts got
the used marked up dilapidated desks that was brought out of the white
schools and given to the black schools. While the white schools got the
new furniture. Books the same way, pages torn, pages scratched up, this
was quite frequent.

Q: Was there harassment? Was there violence?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** As long as you stayed within your known
parameters you could be all right. But if you stepped over and attempted
to do or to be or to sometimes even think differently you would be
shunned. We had come a little piece as far as the hangings, you know,
and the\-- and this kind of thing were less frequent, but the idea and
the silent intimidation was still there.

Q: Ku Klux Klan was almost born here and what was that like?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uh.. the Ku Klux Klan ran or rode past my house
one afternoon when Dr. King was in my home. And uh.. a neighbor, a
friend of ours called and said did you know that the Ku Klux Klan was
riding by your house? And I said no, and I went back hurriedly to remove
Dr. King from where he was sitting, because he was so close to an
outside window. So I attempted to move him and to spread the alarm that
the Ku Klux Klan was out in front of the house. Instead of his moving
where I wanted him to go to, an inner area of the house where he would
be less likely to be harmed, he wanted to go to the window so he could
see them, so that was a tussle. But finally when we all realized and got
settled the parade had past.

Q: I gather it was more than parades, there was cross burning and racial
slurs?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** That\'s right.

Q: Tell us a little about that type of\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Well racial slurs were the same as you\-- as
I\'m sure you have heard the 'nigger', but you know the 'Uncle Tom' or
the 'Thomasina' or whatever, it was the vernacular of the day. It was
still around.

Q: Why the cross burning? Why is that a symbol of the KKK? Was that
going after the church? Was that\-- what was the symbolism of that?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Most as it is today, most groups or countries
or whatever, go to the Bible to sanction their own beliefs. Such as we
have today, we all serve supposedly a God, but my God says this to me,
your God says that to you. It's how we interpret what we read and what
we have been taught and teaching comes from the time a child says "Whaa"
if not before, because attitudes can influence our belief even a
prenatal child. So you go to something to validate yourself and often
time the Bible is where you go to validate your feelings and I\'m sure
that if you read the Bible you will find something there that you can
interpret from your thinking and from your teaching that will validate
what you want to believe. It may not be the truth or I might read the
same passage and see it in a totally different light, but your life
experiences and my life experiences and my culture and your culture may
be totally different and that\'s the reason why we see things
differently in some situations. So I think that the Ku Klux Klan was
really, really used the cross as a symbol to validate their godliness in
the separation of the races. And they were supporters of and felt like
or had been taught that they were better and God was on their side.

Q: And you were taught?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** I was taught that God\-- that I am a child of
God, you are no better and you\'re no worse than the least of these was
my training. You have to in some instances be better in order to achieve
but you must do your best. And if your best does not rise as far as you
want it to, or you may be in a situation where your expectations or
expectations for you are greater than you can achieve, as long as you
can satisfy your soul that you have done your best that's all that can
ever be asked of you.

Q: So the church was very important?

\<crew talk\>

Q: We were talking about the importance of the church in your life and
maybe you could suggest to us, is that a community cohesiveness? I see
so many churches in Selma that they must be great.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yes, there are quite a few. Uh.. that has\--
I\'ve noted that myself and I\'ve thought about that and I think one of
the answers that I have come up with is that people rather than trusting
their own understanding follow a person as a minister rather than
interpreting and finding for them self a piece within the parameters of
the faith that they are walking by. And I think we just go to this
church and that church and you know, I like him so I\'m going to his
church, I like her so I\'m going to her church. And a lot of times what
we are getting in the different churches is not necessarily what I would
call a true faith to walk by and a lot of us go to church because mama
went there, daddy went there, grandma went there, you know, grandpa went
there and my family has always been a member of this church and we own
this pew.

Q: I guess the other thing that is important in any community is the
economics.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: What were the differences black and white as far as the economy of
Selma is concerned? Were there many black businesses? Were there two
worlds or did they merge?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Two worlds, you had black businesses from birth
to death, you had black physicians who delivered, you had black funeral
directors who buried and you had businesses all in between. More so then
than now, because of "integration" they finally figured out that green
was green, money. So as far as now Selma is a totally different place
from where it was 1950, 1960, '70 even '80 and '90, it's different now.
It seems as if some times I think the world has sort of passed Selma by,
or Selma didn\'t keep up or has not kept up with the tide and the
movement of the world. We're just kind of stagnate here, businesses have
closed and left, entire cultures have left. Uh.. we don\'t have a lot of
choice in terms of where we can go to do whatever we need to do, often
times we have to go to Birmingham, favorite close by Montgomery to buy
whatever you think you need, unless you want to see yourself walking up
and down the street six times a day. So the choice is gone, even down to
grocery stores, so Selma is very stagnate now and I\'m very worried
about it, because I don\'t think we're moving in a direction that will
really bring the type of economy that the city really deserves. Because
there's nothing left here, but old folks and babies. There's really\--
the youth when they go off to school, they just keep going there's no
need in coming back home, there's nothing there, there's no opportunity
there for me to grow and to foster whatever it is that I have been
trained for so they don\'t come back. So the youth or the young adults
unless they just cannot go anywhere else are not here, they\'re gone. So
Selma is very stagnate.

Q: And here's a place with a great proud history.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yes.

Q: Why Selma? Why was Selma so critical in the Civil Rights Movement?
The whole notion of achieving voting rights. Why did that occur here?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Why Selma? Is that what you\'re asking?

Q: Yes, ma'am.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** I think Selma was God's chosen place, I think
things happen for a greater and higher reason, sometimes we don\'t
understand the selection or the reason, most times we don't. But I think
this area of our country was prime location for what really needed to be
done and all of the parties involved had a anchor or had a tie to this
area, Alabama, John Lewis Troy, Martin Luther King married a lady from
Marion, Reverend Abernathy, Monroe County, Mrs. Abernathy, Perry County.
So see the whole area had tie uh.. Andrew Young, wife came from Marion,
so there were- there were deep rooted ties in this area in Alabama that
brought and brought the really question and the feeling to light, why
not Selma? I think we- we see that it needed to have been here, things
had started here; things had begun to come up that would\-- you know the
invention of the television was an awful thing to put in the hands of
the black folk. We saw oh, look, see, you know people are doing other
things. I want some of that, why shouldn\'t I have to do or be able to
go and sit and do like I see. So this was- this was a fertile ground for
the change that needed to be made.

Q: Were you a registered voter I guess when you turned\-- I guess in
that day it would have been 21?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** No. No, I was not, didn\'t even try. Because I
knew what the story would be, may I give you an interesting uh.. story
and we use the word story loosely because it is the truth. My husband,
Dr. Sullivan Jackson finished high school in Anderson, Indiana, went to
college, West Virginia State College, dropped out or was drafted out of
West Virginia into the army, went in and served two and a half years as
a medic, often time behind enemy lines, picking up, sewing up, keeping
records of our injured and our dead in WWII. Came back, went back to
West Virginia, finished up his college, went on to medical school,
Meharry Medical School in Nashville, was trained four years as a
dentist, came to Selma to practice, had been a registered voter in the
State of Indiana, went down to register or to see about getting his
registration transferred, no such deal. Was told that he would have
to\-- how much land do you own? Had just got out of dental school, just
beginning to practice, how many people can you get to vouch for you? Oh,
by the way, how many gumdrops are in this jar? The person who put the
gumdrops in the jar didn\'t know, these were stepping stones to reject
him and he went back a couple of times. Now he has served and put his
life on the line for the very people who are denying him the right to
vote, but yet and still their prejudice was so strong until they could
deny him. And he had to go before the United States uh.. Civil Rights
Commission and testify that he was denied the right. Does that tell you
the attitude? Does that tell you the feeling? Does that tell you the
strengths that they would go to, to deny? Does that answer your
question?

Q: It sure did. It's a wonderful example of I guess we\'ve kind of
collected a few of these now and it seems to preposterous today\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: \--and yet you lived through that.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh.. today they\'re begging you to
register. But you see it's all about power, it's all about power and
control. As long as I have my little camp in order and I control I
don\'t want anyone else from the outside coming in and upsetting my
powerbase, and as long as I can keep you down and my foot on your neck
then I\'m in control. But if I let this one in and I let that one in,
sooner or later I\'m\-- my power base is going to have to expand and
I\'m not going to be able to control and as long as I\'m in control my
power to do whatever it is that me and mine want will be done. I'll take
your tax money, you must abide by the law but you have no voice.

Q: And yet you all recognized enough was enough. What was the kind of
turning points where those voting rights were insisted upon?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Well there was a group here called the
'Courageous Eight' and they had been working on this problem for quite
some time without any success or very little success uh.. and they
were\-- saw that Dr. King had had successes in St. Augustine, in
Birmingham and in Montgomery and they thought about this, we need
something done. There's always just a few somewhere out there that\'s
willing to step the extra step to push. And I have to give them credit
for the push to get something really done. And they invited Dr. King,
Dr. King was not a novice to what was going on, because he's in and out
of here all of the time\-- not all of the time, he was in and out of
here, our home was a pit stop between Atlanta and Marion. I had known
him when he had first came to Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery
because I was in on the graduate school at that time and had some ties
with his wife, even as a child. Because you know somebody that knows
somebody that knows somebody or families know some, you know, know
another family. So his stopping by our house was nothing unusual, he
knew the plight, he knew my husband's plight. So when the invitation
came to him, to look at Selma, to see if he and SELC could do anything
to really bring a movement about to change the voting rights
opportunities in this area and the whole country was a valid issue. And
that he did, he did look to see and he decided and he came and he won,
along with a whole lot of valiant soldiers, valiant people who rallied
to the cause.

Q: How did he recruit them? How did he galvanize that many people? This
movement was so successful.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** I really believe, I go back to my religious
training. When there is a call God will provide, when there is a need,
things just fell into place, people knew. Even the ones with their foot
on my neck knew that what they were doing was wrong, they knew.
Somewhere in their soul searching if they ever did any, they knew. This
was the time and the place and the soldier had been sent to lead the
battle.

Q: And he responded to the call?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** He responded to the call and the people
responded to him. You see by now he's a known personality, and you send
out the word to various people around the country, no matter what it was
he needed, he could send to a certain person or call two or three people
plus people just came. Just came because they knew it was right. So
that\'s what I\'m saying God will provide what you need, when you need
it if you\'re true, if it's something he wants done. That\'s my belief.

Q: It's a risk, got to demonstrate some courage\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yes.

Q: \--where do people find that?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Within their inner souls, you do what you have
to do when you know its right to do it. I\'ve been down so long, the
window is finally cracking so that I can see a little daylight. So I\'m
going to get out there and see if there's more light, more than that
crack. So they did what they had to do, their souls told them, this is
right.

Q: Organizing how did that work? Did you all devolve a plan or was it
more spontaneous? You had a leader, you had the church to provide faith
and solace? How did the plan devolve?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** The plan evolved I would say day by day, hour
by hour, minute by minute as pro\-- the progress or the stand still
areas or the problems as they would come up then they would be
addressed. There was never day one this shall happen, day five this will
happen, we'll do this on day seven. There was never a rigid outline for
a movement, never. We do what we have to do based on what we\-- the goal
that we want to reach and we summon in the strength to do that.

Q: We've heard that the voting rights movement was a movement of youth,
that the youth were galvanized and evolved\--

**Richie Jean Jackson: U**hm.. uh..

Q: Tell us a little about that?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** The youth true enough was galvanized. You had
two or three people who really were stalwarts in dealing with youth,
James Beville, James Orange, John Lewis, Jose Williams, they were the
people who really was in the street and I don\'t mean in the street as a
negative thought. I mean they were out there tapping the poles so the
people and they brought in and put forth the ideas which galvanized the
youth. You know when you\'re oppressed or when you don\'t see any hope
somebody comes in and tells you, well you know that there's hope here,
then that sort of pushes you up, plus youth has a bad habit of getting
into stuff anyway. Some times it's good stuff, some times it's bad stuff
but they want to flex their \<skip\>\--

\<crew talk\>

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Let me know when you go back on. Make sure that
as you go through your material and as you edit, make sure you get the
feeling or the information from people who walked the walk and talked
the talk and did actually feel the feelings. I have noticed that in a
lot of documentaries and a lot of print material where people are giving
opinions, I\'m just talking now, I don\'t want this on a disk. I have
read so much about people\-- from people being quoted as this and that
and the other, you know. People 25, 30 years old weren't even born,
people who were not even here, now they may have\-- I\'m sure that they
experienced being black some of the same situations but they\'re coming
off as experts on what happened here, and I think for if you\'re going
to influence the youth of today and tomorrow, it needs to be factual. It
needs to be where there is a true feeling of involvement rater than a
feeling of being on camera, being on this and I was there. Because I
have read stuff and seen stuff, that's one of the reasons I\'m very
dubious about doing documentaries, because people have been called in or
people have come in or people have volunteered to give their\-- they
don\'t even know what they\'re talking about, they read it, they heard
it, but they didn\'t see it and they didn\'t experience it. So be
careful.

Q: I think that's a wonderful warning, we're making every effort and I
think you could help us too if you'd direct us toward some of those
people.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** I'd wish you had\-- well gotten in touch with
people before you made your list. I\'m not saying that people don\'t
know, I\'m not saying that. But I think your material and from what I
understand the direction in which you need to go, young people of today
are not getting it, and you know why one of the reasons is the people
that\'s talking about it are not convincing the charisma, the feeling,
the facial expressions, the whole gondra (ph?) it's not there. And the
documentaries are not getting where they need to get. PBS, sometimes,
you know, one of the networks will do a little piece, but the
information is not getting where it needs to get. We have a whole
generation or a generation and a half who don\'t know, don\'t care, it's
not being taught in the home. It's not being taught at church, how many
of them are going, the school's are not teaching it, because we're in
worse shape in education than we were in the 50's, we really are. So the
material is really not getting where it needs to get in my opinion.

Q: How can we work on that?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** You see if you do a documentary and you want to
get it into the school's, a superintendent might decide\-- a
superintendent of a school system might decide oh this is old stuff,
I\'m 37 years old, this is old, we've got to get on with this. Another
superintendent might say well this is not in the state curriculum and I
have to follow the state curriculum, so it gets laid by. You\'re going
to have to attack this from whomever is in charge of the superintendents
on a national scale, on a federal scale to say hey this needs to be put
into the curriculum. This needs to be a part of a study, it needs to be
put out there so students can understand. There's a difference between
word calling and reading, you have to have some comprehension somewhere
and it's not getting there. It's not getting there. You have to put
material into the hands or into the minds of stu\-- of children where
first they can understand it, second it's somebody\-- the teachers they
don\'t know either. You know that's history, how much real history is
being taught, history or geography are two of the most left out subjects
in the- in the curriculum today. If you\'re going to learn by your
mistakes you've got to teach history. If you haven't been there and
you\'re going to talk about Ethiopia, they've got to know where Ethiopia
is. How many people have been out of the state of Alabama? I don\'t want
to take up all your time.

Q: Well it's fascinating because this is surely our goal and objective
and I\'m going to count on you helping us out here because I think
you\'re speaking just in the direction we'd like to speak to.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: We would like to get the youth energized and engaged\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh.. how many schools do you have right
here in Selma? Right here in Selma that are totally separated. So
integration is not here, the city high school 99.44%, 100% black, white
private schools you've got three. And the ones who can't afford to go to
the private schools here parents ship them off to somewhere else, that's
another reason Selma is dying.

Q: I'd like to change that, how can we get that point of reality
checked?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** I don\'t know, I think there are several
avenues that you could go down as far as education is concerned. The
teachers have to be taught what to say, what to do, how to teach it,
what will interest\-- you can't give a student a geometry book and start
talking about terms used in geometry unless he's had some background.
Teachers are going to have to \<skip\> teacher and put them up in front
of the class and give him materials, unless that teacher has studied the
materials, has made himself available to other uh.. information that may
or may not be in the documentary, to really give themselves a foundation
they have to give themselves a foundation in the subject that they
teaching or they should. So unless they have the foundation to teach
material, they just \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_.

Q: Well maybe you could help us with some of this because I think we're
looking to kind of renew the challenge, renew the interest in this
movement.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh.., uhm.. uh..

Q: And any tools that we can develop we want to do so.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: I\'m very curious that maybe there are some people that you might
recommend to us. Maybe there are some people who might review\-- we're
trying to develop some curriculum materials as part of this. Maybe you
can work with us in coming up with a group of people that are in fact
going to tell it like it is and sometimes it's the difficulty of
convincing administrators\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yes.

Q: \--the bureaucrats\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yes.

Q: \--and those people\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yes.

Q: \--so you have to take a new look, you have to have another look\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yes.

Q: \--I know we'd like to work with you and those you recommend to make
sure that happens. It's pretty frustrating for us too\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: \--you work hard on a documentary and education\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** And to see it pigeonholed.

Q: Exactly, so the only value in this is if it has an audience and if it
can impact on that audience. That\'s what we want and I think we want to
find likeminded people.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: As you say it's very easy to kind of hear a lot of talk, we need a
lot of convincing\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh.., uhm.. uh..

Q: \--and I'd love to work with you on it, we've got a pretty dedicated
group that would like to make this thing.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: We've called this little project 'Never Lose Sight of Freedom',
and\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: \--and it came to us out of a realization maybe we have forgotten,
maybe we have lost sight, maybe we don\'t see that the challenges are
still here. Nobody can rest on their lorals, as proud as we are of Selma
and what was accomplished\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: \--you realize that something \<skip\> \--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yeah, is being led and the citizens of this
country have gotten so numb they just\-- we're just allowing ourselves
to be led, whether it's down the garden path or whatever. We have gotten
out of or- or away from thinking for myself. We've gotten away from
thinking, there is no issue that's out there\-- that should be out there
that we're willing to really take on and attach ourselves to a star. Why
are we having to beg people to register to vote? Why are we having to
pay people to vote? Why are we having to pay people to do almost
anything? Money has become the name of the game, patriotism oh that's
the big word. Patriotism for a price, if I don\'t follow the jondra
(ph?) of the patriots, I\'m scared to say\-- not going there not going
to do that. We're afraid of repercussions, we have to follow the crowd
and that\'s dangerous and I\'m afraid that\'s the way our country is
going. We're following the crowd.

Q: I just can't imagine your frustration after doing all that you have
done, others have done and all the battles that have been fought.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: To have that sense\--

\<crew talk\>

Q: Maybe we could take a few minutes and take your recommendation on how
to avoid this frustration and how to bring this thing into the right
light and into the right focus, the right age, of the right\-- it seems
like we're adrift like you were suggesting that materialism how can we
be surprised that we're materialistic if all we get is TV and big stores
that keep goods and I\'d just love to have your recommendations on how
we might turn this around and get the next group of activists, the next
group of kids that we can count on carrying the torch\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Start in pre-K, start in kindergarten, start in
Head Start, building esteem, building confidence, teaching history. You
can teach history to a toddler, if you go about it in a right way. You
have to start when a child is young. In high school it's too late,
almost too late, I\'m not saying it's impossible, but it's late. You
need to start early and confidence in oneself is the name of the game
and teachers can do that. Teachers can do that if they have confidence
in themselves. Parents today with the economy in the country and in the
world the way that it is almost are forced to have two jobs, mama's
working, daddy's working if there is a daddy and time to build
confidence and to build uh.. family relations and to build a sense of
self worth, they don\'t have time to do it. And that\'s the fallacy of-
of our or the economy, they just don\'t have time. So consequently we're
turning out students and adults, young adults who more or less raised
themselves or the television raised them. They\'re not getting grounded
in values, and values have to come and start early, you can't start when
he gets his first job to instilling values, they have to start very
early and I think that's one of the places we have missed the boat and
the boat has sailed. We're not teaching our youngsters the value of
themselves, the value of learning, the value of being and living in the
greatest country in the world. We don\'t teach that and National
Geographic is not going to give it to us.

Q: We sure learned that one of the key factors in the willingness of
people to join the movement was in fact the teachers strike.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: Do you remember that?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: Maybe you can take us back there and suggest the\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** See the teachers by doing\-- well were taught,
they themselves were taught in their homes, in their churches, in their
community, the difference between right and wrong and that there needed
to be a better day. You see with "integration" we go to the big
university where none of this is ever mentioned. Because I\'m afraid
that I will step on his toes and you know, if I say this or if I teach
this, this is not valid. And much of our own personal history, I mean
use the word personal in terms of the country is just going away, nobody
ever hears it, nobody ever sees it, because it's offensive. We've passed
that and I don\'t want to make you feel bad by telling my story. So I
won\'t tell a story at all. That\'s what in my opinion is what's
happening.

Q: Sharing the stories?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: I think you obviously got the capability of sharing the stories, I\'m
pretty hopeful that once people can hear your voice something will get
moving. I\'m wondering what are the next issues for these kids to focus
on? If they\'re all watching television and all buying cars, where are
we going to get them to turn the corner?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** I\'m very worried about that, I\'m very worried
and I\'m very concerned. It's going to have to start with the school
system, because parents just don\'t have time to do it, or they don\'t
take time. Mama comes home at 5:30, 6:00, she's worn out, because she
has worked all day and the only thing she has time to do is to throw
some supper, if she didn\'t bring it in the door with her and get baths
and see to it that the kids get to bed. That\'s the best she can do, dad
is working either another job after he got off of the first job just to
make ends meet and the children are getting lost because they have no
guidance. They have no anchoring, they have no stability. So unless we
go back and do something in the schools to break up or to suffice for
that void that the home is not able to give, we're going to lose another
generation and the next time it's going to be worse than this one. We've
lost the ability to care, we've lost the ability to be sensible or
sensitive to the needs of others. We've lost the ability to love, we
don\'t know what that word means anymore. Love thy neighbor as thyself,
well then unless you live in my neighborhood I can't love you. Unless
you live in my neighborhood I think not about you. We need to get back
to some grounded truths that will work for us all and not just a few.

Q: One of the words that has come up a lot is tolerance, until we're
looking at the world alike\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** I don\'t like that word.

Q: Tolerance? Oh good, share that\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** I don\'t like tolerance, I tolerate you, why?
Because I have to, I tolerate you, tells me that I\'m forced to do this,
I have to tolerate you. And to me it has a negative attitude in there.
I\'m forced to do something, I\'m not understanding you, I\'m not giving
you a part of me and I expect for you to give me a part of you, or I
want to learn about you, I\'m tolerating you. That\'s an awful word to
be used in this context to me. Putting up with you, I\'m tolerating you,
because I\'m forced to. I\'m tolerating you until I can do better.
That\'s just me.

Q: Oh I think you made your point very well, maybe I should have tried
acceptance, I thought your word understanding had real merit because I
guess that's happened we don\'t seem to understand each other.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** No, we don\'t. And we don\'t care to because we
have no foundation to understand. You don\'t walk into the airplane and
look in the cockpit and understand. So how can you walk in my community
or see me or know me and unless you bring something with you, inside of
you, your soul how can you want to understand me? That\'s the way I see
it, I know I\'m, you know, way out in left field.

Q: Do you think you are?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yes.

Q: Just because we've moved so far\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yes, yes, there's only a few of us left, we're
being led, you\'re not looking to the right, not to the left, somebody
told you to go and you go. Because I if looked to the right or I looked
to the left I'll lose my place.

Q: Where do we go from here?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** I don\'t know, I know where I'd like to see us
go.

Q: Let's talk about that.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** I'd like to see us change our hearts, that\'s
where it's going to have to start I\-- one place, we're going to have to
start to understanding\-- I have to understand me before I can attempt
to understand you. I can't bring you part of me the way I\'m doing today
unless I know something about you. And I have to be open to the changes
that you will bring to me. You have to be open to receive changes that I
may offer you, you\'re understanding of me, my understanding of you, my
willingness from my heart, from my soul to know you as a person not as a
white man. I\'m not afraid of you, I\'m not afraid of me, because I know
me and I can come to you knowing who I am and not be intimated, because
I\'m grounded in me. I have confidence in me and I\'m willing to learn,
I\'m willing to look to the right and I\'m willing to look to the left
and I\'m not going to let you lead me, but so far unless I know where
you going. And if I don\'t like where you going hopefully I'll have the
courage and the strength to step aside and let the masses go, I'll catch
up if it's all right and if it's not, I'll be comfortable right here.

Q: I think you should be moving this off the ball\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm..

Q: I think you should be pushing us a little harder and not stepping
aside, I think we're looking for the people who aren't going to step
aside.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** The masses are tremendous, they don\'t want to
step, they don\'t want to look, they\'re not willing, because they
don\'t have the confidence in themselves. I often talk back to the
television, oh you stupid, did you just hear what you just said, you
know. And- and I\'m looking at- at our leaders, they\'re telling us
stuff as if we are peons, I\'m telling you this and you have to believe
it because I said it. So you swallow it and do what I tell you to do
because I said it, because I\'m mister so and so. I\'m your leader, I\'m
saying but you didn\'t answer the question. All we have learned that
skill well, I\'m standing over here and I ask the leader a question, I
stepped out of line, I step out and ask where you going? You just follow
me. Well how far are you going? I'll tell you when we get there, never
ask\-- answering, have you noticed that? Never answer a question, if it
is it's so tied up in legalisms or jargon until it's going to take you
the next day or two to figure out what it was he was trying to say. And
then when you figure it out you find out it wasn't much. We pretend to
love each other, we pretend to care about each other, we pretend we want
to know each other. I can't love you unless I love me and if I love me
and I know me there's not but so far you\'re going to lead me without my
stopping to ask where we going? Don\'t want to go there. We've lost the
ability to think for ourselves, we're being led.

Q: Well I'd sure like to get it back on track.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** I would too.

Q: Do you see that happening? I don\'t see you as a pessimist I see you
as a realist.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yes.

Q: How can we go a little farther so that people get this message and
take it to heart and work on those kinds of changes?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** People are going to have to start thinking,
people are going to have to start reading, people are going to have to
stop listening, start listening to something other than cartoons, even
though a cartoon sometimes can teach you a lesson. We ought to get to
the place where we as a people get their idea that there's always
something I can learn to improve myself and stop wallowing in your own
self pity. Now some of us we have a right to be concerned, you know,
about our situation. But are you thinking about how to get out of your
situation? Are you plotting? Are you trying to learn? Do what you can
within the ability which you have to do it. There's a place for us all,
the man that mows the lawn, the man that picks up the garbage should be
looked at no less of a person and a value than the man who has two PhD's
in chemistry and physics. And we've gotten past that, we don\'t care for
each other as person, not as a money maker, not as a power broker.

Q: How you doing?

**Richie Jean Jackson:** I\'m doing okay.

Q: Good, if we could take just a second and kind of speak directly to
let's say a 15 year old who might be looking for change, might have
taken some of those steps that you\'re talking about. What can you offer
them as an inspiration to take it a little further and develop some of
that self reliance, self confidence, that critical thinking that might
let them over away\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Learn, we still have to get in to our young
folk, learn, what you put in here nobody can take it away. What you put
in here is for your use, nobody can take it away. But you have to put it
in before you can use it and sitting on the corner or sitting on the
corner scratching is not going to put anything in, you've got to
develop. The more you learn, the more you learn the more confidence you
build, inspiration where grandma use to give it sometimes it has to be
self inflicted today. But once you get the idea that you have to
improve, you have to learn, even if you\'re self taught and so many of
our grandfathers were. Get up and do something about yourself, learn
something, read something, and don\'t read just one book by\-- on a
subject by one author, read three, come up with your own diagnosis. In
my classroom I never allowed only one textbook, or one book, who told
him he knew it all? Read his book, read his book, read what he says on
the subject, develop your own thinking, then you become confident, then
you want to learn more. It gets to be good to you. So I think that's
what\-- one of the ways that we're going to learning, if you\'re
stagnate you\'re left with the same ideas, the same impressions. But if
you\'re learning, you\'re creating a totally new environment for
yourself. We have teachers who don\'t care if your student learns or
not, I get my paycheck at the end of the year\-- at the end of the
month. We need some more or better inspired teachers. And a lot of the
good ones are getting out of the profession because they can make more
money\-- teachers need to be one of the most revered persons on the
universe, because we have the clay, the raw clay in the palms of our
hand and we are the ones who shape and mold and push and pull. Teachers
are the less respected and inspired people here. They don\'t care
nothing about\-- really don\'t care much about education period. Unless
you have climbed up that you can go to Yale or Harvard then you\'re
somebody. Ivy League, what does that tell you, money, power. That my
rich parents are paying for me to get in and out, so we have to go back
to really caring about students. We have to go back to teaching, not
holding a class, we have to go back to caring about what it is you do.
That\'s the only way I know.

Q: Well that's a wonderful model, if we could only care for each other
and I think you've pointed out very well that starts in here.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh.., uhm.. uh..

Q: Well you've been very patient with us and we appreciate it very much
your commentary. I wish had found you maybe a little earlier because I
have a feeling that you could be quite a spark plug to this whole idea
of finding out people who can help us with this. If possible I'd love to
learn of those you think we might be well served to talk to that could
share and inspire some of these students that or will see our film.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Uhm.. uh..

Q: We are making an effort at least in Alabama we know it's going to be
distributed as part of the curriculum, I\'m not sure about the national
scope yet. I think you can be very proud\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Do you have it in writing?

Q: Well you know that's a good point I\--

**Richie Jean Jackson:** You know we're fixing to change
superintendents?

Q: No, I didn\'t know that.

**Richie Jean Jackson:** Yes. The man who is now the superintendent of
education for the State of Alabama has resigned and will only be at I
think the end of next year, he will no longer be there and they\'re in a
squabble now as to who will take his- his place. So what was done in one
administration may not carry over into another administration, so by the
time you get your stuff together and edited and done and distributed or
ready for\--

\#### End of Tape A2 \####