U.S. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION

OFFICE OF POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION

**PUBLIC REGIONAL HEARING ON**

**NEGOTIATED RULEMAKING**

Wednesday, October 15, 2008

9:00 a.m. -- 3:02 p.m.

Cuyahoga Community College

Corporate College

East 4400 Richmond Road

Warrensville Heights, Ohio

**P R O C E E D I N G S**

**MR. MADZELAN:** Good morning, everyone. Welcome to this sixth and
final hearing that we have scheduled and we have had here at the
Department of Education here to get information from the community, you
people, about what we need to do in terms of regulatory activity, a
regulatory agenda, to implement the reauthorization of the Higher
Education Opportunity Act.

The first thing I want to do, though, is thank Claire Rosacco and her
team here at Cuyahoga for agreeing to host this event and providing us
with what I\'d have to say is kind of an \"ace-one\" meeting space here.
As I mentioned, this is the sixth in our series of hearings. We
published a notice back in the first part of September in the Federal
Register announcing these meetings, indicating the requirements,
essentially, that we have under the Higher Education Act which is to
engage in a process of rulemaking by negotiation for the programs
authorized by Title IV of the Higher Ed Act, which are the student
financial assistance programs.

Part of our charge\--as part of this negotiated rulemaking process is to
gather information from affected parties, interested parties, regulated
parties, which, of course, for us in this area are students, colleges,
universities, other postsecondary education providers, lenders, banks,
guarantee agencies, servicers for the loan program, et cetera. And
again, that is the purpose of these hearings, is to gather that kind of
information, and what the affected community thinks the Department ought
to pursue in a rulemaking process. When\--as I mentioned, this is the
last of our series over the next few weeks. We have already begun to
assemble that which we have heard, at the staff level. We will develop a
series of recommendations for consideration by our policy officials.
That\'s going to take us another couple of weeks, and that\'s going to
take us into the first part of November.

Our plan\--you\'re looking at a couple of people up here that are career
employees. You know, we\'re going to continue doing this, irrespective
of our leadership. The question is, at what time will we do that? Again,
we have a plan to move forward with this process this fall and winter.
But that could change within the next couple of weeks. We have,
again\--those that you see before you today, we\'ve been through a
number of these transition periods, and sometimes they are pretty
smooth, and for us, in the Education Department, and sometimes a little
bit less so.

So, at any rate, we have a process in mind, and\--which we will pursue,
unless our political officers ask us to hold off for a while. If we hold
off for a while, basically, it means a two-month delay in the process,
and we are still nonetheless faced with other statutory deadlines around
promulgating final rules, a master calendar, and that sort of thing.
Joining me here today from the Department, my colleague Gail McLarnon,
from the Office of Postsecondary Education. And also helping out now
standing at attention in the back of the room is Marty Guthrie, also
from the Office of Postsecondary Education. So, these\--I guess the last
thing\--well, next to last thing that I want to mention, is that
this\--our hearing today is being webcast live by the college here. So,
I hope that does not mean that some people who have signed up to speak
will now choose not to speak. But again, just so you are aware of that
fact.

We do have, as you know, the sign-up sheet in the back of the room. We
will go in the order that you have signed up. You should be aware that,
even though we have these ten-minute intervals, it has been our
experience that not everyone uses the full ten minutes. So, we\'ll\--the
morning may sort of speed up a little bit. We do have a break scheduled
at 10:30, I believe, and then break for lunch at noon. Again, those are
not hard and fast. We\'re going to try and be as flexible as we can,
because we are primarily interested in what you people, the community,
has to say. We are really not here to answer questions. That doesn\'t
mean we won\'t answer questions, but primarily we are in listening mode
here. We want to hear what you have to say, what you think is important,
and what you think we need to do over the next several months in terms
of producing a\--beginning a regulatory process with an eye towards
publishing a final rule next November 1st\--next, next November 1st,
November 1, 2009. So, with that, I will ask my colleague Gail if she has
anything to add or\...

**MS. McLARNON:** Just another big thank you to Claire Rosacco and
Cuyahoga Community College staff for such lovely accommodations. We\'re
not really used to this high-tech setting and we\'re very appreciative.
We\'re very, also, appreciative of the turnout here today. We\'re almost
approaching what looks like a full schedule, and that\'s wonderful
because, as Danny said, it\'s very important for us to hear what the
community has to say. It informs our rulemaking process to a great
degree, and Danny and I have been through lots of rulemakings together.

And so, again, I would like to welcome all of you. Thank you for coming
and thank the Cuyahoga Community College staff for putting together such
a wonderful facility for us.

**MR. MADZELAN:** So, we will start this morning with Nancy Hoover. And
Nancy, if you and others who follow you can, when you get to the podium,
again, state your name for the record and where you\'re from, who you
represent. And also, it will be inevitable that we will butcher
someone\'s name. I\'m a little bit used to that, but please correct us
when you come to the podium.

**MS. HOOVER:** Thank you. I\'m Nancy Hoover. I\'m the Director of
Financial Aid at Denison University, a private liberal arts college here
in Ohio.

I\'m also representing the National Direct Student Loan Coalition, which
is, as I indicated in my statement\--is a grassroots organization that
supports the Direct Loan Program. First of all, I want to express my
appreciation to the Secretary for the opportunity to present comments to
the Department of Education on several points of concern with the Higher
Education Opportunity Act.

It is crucial that practicing financial aid professionals be allowed to
provide input on legislation that can both provide or hinder our
students from having access to a college degree. As I indicated in my
opening statement, I am the Director of Financial Aid at Denison
University. And today, though, I will be speaking on behalf of the
National Direct Student Loan Coalition. This is a grassroots
organization that represents over 1,300 schools throughout the Nation
that participate in the Federal Direct Loan Program. The mission of the
Coalition is to ensure the success of the Federal Direct Student Loan
Program by promoting its benefits for students, families, taxpayers, and
institutions. The National Direct Loan Student Coalition is comprised of
practicing financial aid administrators from all types of colleges and
universities. Therefore, this testimony will address several areas of
concern in the Higher Education Opportunity Act that are beyond the
student loan area. It is crucial that you hear thoughtful commentary
from administrators at all types of schools who can offer
recommendations for crafting of the final rules that ensure program
integrity without preventing access for students to all sources of
funding for their college education.

The areas of concern that I wish to address:

Point one, in the Federal Direct Student Loan Program, the new
provisions introduced by HEOA that require DL schools and the DL
servicer to comply with each requirement listed under Section 433 of the
HEA that apply to the FFELP lender. The Coalition clearly supports all
of the disclosures that are required for student loans in both the DL
Program and FFEL Program. The Coalition encourages the Department to
adhere to the conferees\' intent that loan servicers can maintain their
current organizational structure of providing to students the
disclosures that are in compliance with these new requirements.

Point two, new institutional disclosures on cost of tuition and fees.
The model that the Department creates for schools to provide
transparencies of cost in net price must be based on thoughtful
consideration of comments from college administrators from all areas of
institutions who are involved in developing the institution\'s pricing
structure for tuition and fees. Any instrument developed to calculate
the net price of college cost must incorporate the fact that
universities do not utilize any uniform methodology or policy to award
their respective institutional, need-based, and merit award aid in
addition to the federal and state sources of aid.

Point three, additional new disclosures required by schools to current
and prospective students. To effectively and efficiently collect all of
the required disclosures, current and new, from schools the Department
needs to develop a standard data collection instrument with an
industry-standard file format that is compatible with the respective
administrative computer systems currently used by colleges. The
disclosure requirements could be created from data within the school\'s
respective systems, and exported from the schools to a data warehouse,
similar to the common origination and disbursement system that is used
by all schools that process federal aid. If the required disclosure
information was collected in a standardized format, it could be
programmed to update more efficiently the websites to provide public
consumer information about colleges and universities. This project
should have at least three years to be developed to streamline and
standardize this massive data collection for both the Department of
Education and the universities.

Point four, private student loans. Thorough negotiation is crucial to
develop for students of private loan disclosure process that is not
confusing and cumbersome. The final rules must provide schools
flexibility in generating and providing the new disclosure form to
students who are applying for private loans. The intent of this process
must always focus on informing students about their eligibility for
other aid rather than become an obstacle in the application process
because of possible processing delays.

Thank you again for the opportunity to provide comments on the Higher
Education Opportunity Act at today\'s hearing at Cuyahoga Community
College on behalf of the National Direct Student Loan Coalition. Our
organization is committed to helping students have access to affordable
college degrees. The Coalition looks forward to working with the
Department to finalize the best rules and regulations for all of the
federal financial aid programs so that students will not be thwarted in
their efforts to achieve their dream of a college degree.

Thank you.

**MS. McLARNON:** Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you, Nancy.

Just to follow up one moment on my initial remarks, I should also
mention, since Nancy has indicated her organization\'s willingness to
help us out here, we think that we will have in this negotiated
rulemaking process probably four separate committees, and that means we
need a lot of non-federal negotiators to help us out. So, again, at some
point this fall, we will publish another Federal Register Notice laying
out sort of a more formal approach or a better structure of what we\'re
thinking in terms of process, as well as solicitation of nominations for
non-federal negotiators. So again, I hope that you and all of your
friends and colleagues will give some thought to helping us out and
volunteer to be non-federal negotiators.

Our next speaker is Greg Shields.

**MR. SHIELDS:** Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Greg
Shields, Regional Director of Operations for National College, based in
Roanoke, Virginia. On behalf of our approximately 10,000 students
enrolled in 24 campuses located in central southeastern United States,
including four campuses located here in Ohio, it is my pleasure to have
this opportunity to speak to you this morning. We applaud the
Department\'s efforts, under Secretary Spelling\'s leadership to advance
the Higher Education Act to bring meaningful reform to higher education
in our country. This morning, I would like to briefly discuss two very
important issues that are currently facing the career college sector:
90/10 and proposed revisions to the method in which cohort default rates
are calculated. These are just two of the many very important issues
currently facing our sector that are included in the Higher Education
Act.

Today, approximately 2.8 million college students are at risk unless
immediate reforms to the 90/10 rules are enacted. This is a very
difficult time for our students given the current economic climate and
the continuing credit crisis that, in some instances, has brought the
availability of credit to a grinding halt.

The elimination of numerous sources of private loans has created
additional hardship for a number of our students who no longer have
access to these lending sources. Many of our students must work to
support their families while pursuing their dream of a college
education. The reduction in access to these private loan sources has
made it even more difficult for our sector to serve this population and
placed greater pressure on our ability to meet the federal government\'s
90/10 tuition requirements. In the past, career colleges have been
limited in the non-Title IV program\'s revenue that they can include in
the 10 percent calculation. The HEA reform allows revenue from non-Title
IV programs that have been approved by the state or an accrediting
agency. Our programs offered here at our campuses in the State of Ohio
do not require approval for each individual program, but rather these
approvals are part of an overall institutional approval. We would prefer
the Department adopt a rule that allows program revenues to be included,
so long as such programs are considered part of an overall
accreditation, or the programs do not otherwise require a specific state
approval.

The HEA allows institutions to include the net present value of loans
they themselves make to students between July 1, 2008 and June 30, 2012
in the 10 percent calculation. The Department needs to realize that
career colleges initiate multiple class starts throughout the year. For
instance, National College has eight class starts during our academic
year. If the Department were to require that our member schools disburse
funds on a class start basis, this would create unnecessary delays and
frustration for our students, not to mention higher costs for
administering this regulation. We would recommend that our institutions
be allowed to provide a single loan at the beginning of the students\'
academic year, with the loan itself spread out over the institution\'s
fiscal year. Should institutions be allowed payment deferments until
after graduation, such deferments should likewise be allowed.

The second topic of importance that I would like to address today is the
proposed revisions to the method in which cohort default rates are
calculated. Career colleges, such as National College, provide an
important role in educating a segment of our population that is
underserved by traditional higher education. Many of our students tend
to be first-generation college students. They work full-time to support
their family and face numerous obstacles on a daily basis just to attend
classes.

Given time, I could share with you numerous stories of students that
were able to overcome these obstacles in order to graduate with their
degree and go on to start a successful career, not just another job. The
law provides that, beginning with the Fiscal Year 2009 cohort default
rates, the rates will be calculated for a three-year period, but it also
provides that no sanctions may be imposed on an institution until three
years of the three-year cohort default rates have been published. In the
interim, the Department will have to publish both two-year and
three-year rates for the Fiscal Year 2009 and Fiscal Year 2010. It will
be important for institutions to be able to have access to the full
range of appeals and corrections for both the two-year and three-year
rates for both of these years. I appreciate the opportunity to share my
comments with you today. Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you, Greg.

Jill Noble.

**MS. NOBLE:** Good morning, and thank you for having me and giving me
this opportunity to speak to you this morning.

We had two previous speakers who spoke of financial information and the
need based on our economy and other things, but I\'m here today as a
representative from the American Council of the Blind, which is a
consumer organization in this country for blind and visually-impaired
individuals, and this relates to accessibility of educational materials.
So, what I wanted to say is, is that the financial part is important,
but also another part of the Higher Education Opportunity Act is
accessible textbook materials\--or instructional materials, I should
say.

The American Council of the Blind would like to serve on the study
commission as a member in order to provide their expertise in working
with the language that should go into\--become part of the legislation
for accessible textbooks. They were very involved with the K-12 portion,
which became a part of IDEA in 2004. They worked tirelessly with other
blindness organizations and also with textbook publishers to come up
with a standardized file format and repository for accessible textbooks
and materials. And we would like to do this on the postsecondary
education level. We have people who are very well versed in public
policy as well as the technological background to provide their
expertise on this commission. And we also have a great resource in our
national affiliate, which is in the National Alliance of Blind Students.
It\'s an affiliate of the American Council of the Blind, the national
organization. And they also being primarily a group of college students
could really assist with this part of the Higher Education Opportunity
Act.

So, not only is there the financial part of this but there\'s also the
part of actually having accessibility to educational materials. And
it\'s\--like I said, it\'s a very important issue.

So, thank you very much for your time.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you. One question, Jill. Since we\'re\--the
folks here from the Department, we\'re college, university,
postsecondary education types, and we know a little bit about IDEA
because there\'s\--

**MS. NOBLE:** Right.

**MR. MADZELAN:** From time to time, the Higher Education Act and
individuals in the IDEA touch each other. But I\'m hearing from your
testimony that, because of the work that you\'ve done previously on the
K-12 level, you think that a lot of that work would easily translate
into\--for discussion by, what I\'m guessing, for you, would be a new
audience here in postsecondary education.

**MS. NOBLE:** Yes, definitely. Well, and I\--I mean, just from my own
personal experience, there\'s a lot of differences in K-12 materials. We
all know\--a lot of us who have gone to college or are in college
actually have\--know the expense of textbooks and how quickly they
change, and the publishers come out with a new edition, things like
that. It\'s a little bit different than the K through 12 portion,
because the books, once they\'re produced or whatever, in a certain
format\--let\'s say, for example, a Braille book in elementary school
can be used for several years before a new edition or a change comes
about. In college, it\'s a lot different, and in college, there\'s a lot
of subject material that is difficult to put in certain formats. But I
think the whole idea of the file format being consistent and also the
repository would really apply to this particular\--to postsecondary
education.

And there are a lot of materials, and especially with college textbooks
because they\'re quite large, the materials would be\--for example, a
Braille chemistry book in college would be very difficult produce, but
supplementary materials and other things like that would be a
possibility. But standardization\--I heard Nancy speak about that as far
as providing information to students, websites being updated and a
repository. And so, here, once again, we\'re repeating that in
standardization of formats and a repository for accessible instructional
materials as well.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you.

**MS. NOBLE:** Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Our next speaker is Galen Graham.

**MR. GRAHAM:** Good morning. My name is Galen Graham, and I am a
Regional Vice President and Columbus Metro President for DeVry
University. Today, I come wearing many hats, representing, as I do,
DeVry Incorporated, its schools, and all of its 80,000 students. On
behalf of the university and its Keller Graduate School of Management,
Chamberlain College of Nursing, Brost University, Apollo College, and
the Western Career College, thanks for this opportunity to speak today.

DeVry is focused on creating value for students, for its employees, and
for society at large. This means addressing the unmet needs of society
by providing high-quality student-centered, career-oriented
opportunities to thousands of students every year. We have a long and
proud history of producing graduates who are prepared, highly skilled,
and ready to hit the ground running with careers that meet today\'s
workforce needs. So, creating value, especially for our students and our
graduates is intrinsic to our culture and certainly guides everything
that we do. So, it is with a great honor that I represent our
institutions today. We applaud the United States Congress for
reauthorizing the Higher Education Act through the passage of the Higher
Education Opportunity Act.

DeVry is greatly encouraged by provisions that, among other things,
enable dual enrollment at high school and college, that increase the
maximum Pell Grant award while simultaneously providing for year-round
Pell Grant eligibility, that expand professional judgment for financial
aid administrators, that increased the annual and aggregate Perkins
Loans limits, that reduce the number of payments required for
rehabilitation of defaulted Perkins Loans, and that preserve Title IV
eligibility for quality foreign medical schools, and expanded
eligibility for market-funded foreign nursing schools. There\'s a good
deal for us to be excited about, and we are an engaged participant in
the negotiated rulemaking process. Our institutions at DeVry are
diverse, much like higher education as a whole. We believe that this
diversity is one of American higher education\'s great strengths. With
this in mind, we encourage the Department to develop and refine
regulations through community-wide involvement. We respectfully request
the broad and diverse group of institutional representatives actively
participate in the rulemaking process to discourage a one-size­fits-all
approach.

Given some of the complex issues that are involved in the negotiated
rulemaking, like balancing the absolute need for transparency and full
disclosure while being mindful of the demands of institutional
day-to-day operations, we believe that diverse institutional
participation is essential.

I will be brief today since DeVry and its divisions have also submitted
written testimony to the Department. I\'d like to highlight just a few
areas that are of special importance to us, namely year-round Pell,
institutional loans, preferred lender lists, recourse loans, and
retention rate disclosures. With respect to year-round Pell Grant,
eligibility is essential for student access and affordability and
positively impacting time to degree. We request that the Department give
institutions the necessary flexibility to determine on a
student-by-student basis which award year to use for crossover payment
periods. Broad interpretation will provide the maximum benefit for these
students. We are relieved by new provisions that treat select Stafford
Loan distributions in excess of loan limits as non-Title IV revenue.
However, because loans are divided into multiple disbursements across
award years and vary according to academic progressions and other
outside resources, many institutions are left in a quandary and unable
to determine how to attribute the extra loan amounts. It\'s critical
that schools be permitted flexibility to allocate funds on a
student-by-student basis.

With respect to preferred lender lists, many provisions in the Higher
Education Opportunity Act require institutions to have at least three
unaffiliated lenders on an institution\'s preferred lender list.
However, some institutions may be unable to find three unaffiliated
lenders or may have a preferred lender cease making loans. We submit
that the Secretary specifically address this issue in future
regulations. We also ask that forthcoming regulations identify what
constitutes a preferred lender list, allow for institutions to add a
third lender should one cease making loans, and enable an institution to
provide lender information unassociated with their preferred lender
list. With respect to recourse loans, new provisions in the bill
prohibit select interactions between private lenders and institutions.
The manager\'s statement noted that legislative intent was not to
prohibit recourse loans so long as institutions do not provide improper
quid pro quo to a lender. We urge the regulatory language not place any
further restrictions on recourse loans, as these loans are pivotal in
affording educational access to so many students across higher
education.

With respect to retention rate disclosures, public disclosures of
first-time, first-generation student retention rates requires detailed
attention concerning how the rates are calculated. Students who withdraw
for reasons outside of an institution\'s control, including active
military service, serious illness, or leave of absence, should be
excluded form this calculation.

So, in conclusion, let me say that DeVry is looking forward to
continuing to be a participant in this process. And on behalf our
students and our institutions, I\'d like to thank you for the
opportunity to speak today. Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you.

**MS. McLARNON:** Thanks.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Ralonda Ellis-Hill and Louis Milo \[sic.\].

**MR. NIRO:** Good morning. I\'m also delighted to be here this morning
and I also have multiple hats.

I am the Director of Educational Opportunity Program here at Cuyahoga
Community College, but I\'m also representing the state association
known as the TRIO Association, also known as HAEOPP, or Higher
Association of Educational Opportunity Program Personnel. That\'s a
mouthful. That\'s why I developed an accent, by the way, because
rambling all those acronyms\--or because I\'ve worked with TRIO for 35
years. A small story\--I have to tell this story because it\'s
interesting and has\--I started at Cuyahoga Community College some 35
years ago, and within two or three years in the program, I received a
call from Washington that I took on the program officer by the name of
Linda Byrd-Johnson-­was going to come and pay us a visit to review our
programs. Well, I was very excited. Linda Byrd-Johnson was\--this is the
office of Cuyahoga Community College. So, I informed our institutions
and we were prepared for this exciting visit.

To our surprise, this talented, intelligent, young
professionally-looking African-American lady comes to our door and Linda
Byrd­Johnson\--but the story is, the same Linda Byrd-Johnson today, that
Linda Byrd-Johnson, happens to head the national TRIO programs. It\'s
one of the largest discretionary programs within the Department of
Education. So, we are delighted that she\'s heading this program and I
had the opportunity to work with her. She did find\--provide us with
some technical assistance, then, and she also told us that we were in
compliance. So, one of the main-­I\'m really out of this regulatory\--by
the way, welcome on behalf of the TRIO programs, welcome on behalf of
Cuyahoga Community College. I\'m just going to give you a very brief
overview. As I\'ve been here for more than 35 years, I think I have this
somewhat clownish way of presenting things.

And then my TRIO colleagues here will be presenting some specifics in
relation to the negotiating rulemaking in relations to the new
provisions within the regulations.

Again, I\'m Louis Niro. I\'m delighted to be here, and on behalf of the
six TRIO programs here at Cuyahoga Community College\--and we are
serving more than 4,000 students at these institutions. And on behalf of
the state TRIO association, I welcome you and thank you for this
opportunity. The TRIO programs have been serving the Ohio\'s educational
opportunity and throughout this country for over 40 years. And here at
Cuyahoga Community College, we have had TRIO programs almost that long
as well. Now, with the new legislation, we will be able to extend our
services to a wider population. The provisions will make TRIO stronger,
and we look forward to its implementations and to the final rulemaking
hearings.

Some of the specifics that have\--in the new provisions\--I think are
very meaningful to us, and I\'ll be mentioning some of them, and my
colleagues will be talking more about the specifics later. The\--which
one of the provisions extends the\--all TRIO grants from four years to
five years. We\'ve been really advocating for those for a number of
years. It also increases the minimum of TRIO grants to \$200,000 per
grant. It also, for the first time\--it\'s very important for Cuyahoga
Community College, because we have multiple branch campuses, as many
other institutions throughout this country will have an opportunity to
apply for TRIO grants for each campus, and we look forward to the next
competitions of the Student Support Services, which we can apply for
each of the three campuses. It also allows TRIO grantees to target
student populations with particular needs\--and this has been done in
the past but this is\--gives us a greater emphasis, for example, for
students with limited English proficiency. Also, with\--there\'s a
greater emphasis with disabled populations, disabled students. And for
the first time, I think, this is going to be very challenging for you,
but also the TRIO community, they have added the homeless and the foster
youth to be served by TRIO. So, that\'s going to be a very interesting
and challenging format\--process.

It also animates\--it\'s especially important for me because I worked
with veterans for a number of years. This also allows us to extend
eligibility for veterans Upward Bound programs to include older
veterans, and also for veterans who have served as reservists, and those
who were called to action on or after September 11, 2001. There are
many, many other provisions which I will not be able to go into, but
some of my colleagues will talk to some of them. But I think once you go
through this process, we hope that this will really improve the
regulations and for us to implement within our applications and our
daily activities at our institutions.

And this was a large segment of our county, our state, and our national
community\--will have the opportunity to become active, integrated,
member of our economy. And that\'s really the ultimate goal, for them to
become successful in their own lives. The new provisions will enable
TRIO to better serve in a more comprehensive way our students. So, I
wanted to thank you for this opportunity. And again, thank you for the
time that you take and enjoy our campus and our weather that we have had
in the past couple of weeks.

**MS. McLARNON:** You\'re welcome.

**MS. ELLIS-HILL:** Good morning. My name is Ralonda Ellis-Hill, and I
currently work as an advisor at Cuyahoga Community College with the
educational Talent Search Program.

Currently, our program serves 1,250 students throughout Cleveland, Ohio.
And today, I am here to make a request that\--for two things, in fact. I
wanted to first request that, looking at the amendments that are
included in this Higher Education Act, I would like to request that
there be a reduction in the minimum number of students that a program is
required to serve from the 600 minimum as it is stated in the HEA. Also,
I would like to request an increase in the number of students\--cost per
students in order to meet these new mandates, specifically looking at
new requirements such as a mandate to provide high-quality academic
tutoring services to our students. That is something difficult to
accomplish on a budget of approximately \$400 per student.

Currently, we do have other programs that are able to accomplish this,
such as our Upward Bound Program, but they are working on a budget of
about \$4,000 per student. So, for our program, it is\--we are already
stressed, having been level-funded for these past few years, and we are
currently doing all we can to ensure that our students are important,
but given the new mandates, I feel that these two requirements are
essential. At this time, I have Ms. Amonica Davis, Director of our
educational Talent Search Program who would like to add, too.

**MS. DAVIS:** Thank you. As stated in Section 402(b)1(B)\--

**MR. MADZELAN:** Excuse me. Can you just, again, state your name,
because we have\--

**MS. DAVIS:** Okay. I\'m sorry. As Ms. Hill stated, my name is Amonica
Davis, Director of TRIO educational Talent Search at Cuyahoga Community
College.

As stated in Section 402(b)1(B), the recommendation is to strike the
language but to have the ability to complete such programs. It is very
important that that language remain. Talent Search was designed for
students who possess the potential to succeed, who demonstrated
educational talent, but due to the fact that they were low-income,
first-generation, they did not enter postsecondary education because
they lacked the motivation and the information necessary to access
higher education, specifically, the availability of financial aid, in
addition to the financial aid process, and the process of selecting,
applying to, and entering college. Presently, our staff provides our
students with the motivation and the information necessary to access,
because we work with such a population. If the language changes relative
to our population, it will become a very, very different program. So, we
would like for you to take that into consideration.

Thank you.

**MS. SZELTNER:** Good morning. My name is Julie Szeltner. I am the
Manager of Talent Search at Cleveland Scholarship Programs. Thank you
for the opportunity to speak today.

I just want to add two points to what my colleagues have already
mentioned. A lot of changes to Talent Search proposed in the Higher
Education Opportunity Act, two more that would affect us greatly, and
it\'s largely because of the number of students that we serve, a minimum
of 600, is how it\'s now written, and the funding that we do
receive\--again, we receive approximately \$400 per student. By raising
the standards to include new outcomes such as assuring that our students
do complete a rigorous secondary school program. One point is the
rigorous program is not always available to our students through our
schools, and two, because of the students we serve, as Ms. Davis
mentioned, they are not always prepared as we need them to be, by
striking the issue that she mentioned\--sometimes our students are not
going to go to a four-year college but we need to prepare them for a
two-year degree or a vocational school. Second point\--additional\--is
that Talent Search would now be responsible to see that our students
complete a postsecondary education. This, in effect, extends our
services for at least four years beyond what we already have to track.

Currently, we send our students out after they are enrolled in a
postsecondary institution, and we are not responsible for tracking them
beyond that; this is a new provision.

Please consider all of these points, and I appreciate the time that
you\'ve given us.

**MS. EAFFORD:** Good morning. My name is Felisa Eafford. I am the
Director of the Upward Bound Program here at Cuyahoga Community College,
and came with this team of individuals representing the Ohio TRIO
programs, and I just wanted to make about three points regarding the
annual performance reports and how that would affect our programs with
the changes in the legislation. Annual performance reports are required
for all of the TRIO programs, generally about 90 days after the end of
the grant. They\'ve been generally due in November and December. With
the recent changes of the legislation, we are basically encouraging the
Department to revise the reports as soon as possible, and to get them
out to the project directors.

The annual reports\--the data included in the annual reports show our
program effectiveness by evaluating them. And so, with the new changes,
our programs want to be able to accurately reflect the data that the
Department is going to look at and then evaluate whether we are able to
receive continual funding based on the data that we provide. So, with
the changes in the legislation, they refer to some of the required
services that our TRIO programs offer and also the permissible services
and programs report the services that have been provided for the
students. Therefore, as soon as the Department can make changes to these
annual reports and get them out to the TRIO community, we will know
exactly what data is required and what we are to report.

Just one additional comment I do want to make is that prior experience
is calculated\--is looking at the quality and effectiveness of how we
administer our TRIO programs. And prior experience is calculated based
on data that we report in the annual report. And due to the changes, now
that Congress has defined prior experience as opposed to the Department
of Education, we want to make sure that the TRIO community again knows
how to accurately track the data that\'s being required so that the
annual report data that we are going to be reporting on an annual basis
not only reflects the agreed upon objectives of the grant, but also the
prior experience criteria so that, as we apply for new grants, we are
able to get all of the points that the projects have earned based on the
quality of services they have provided for their program. And again, I
thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with my colleagues
regarding the changes in the legislation and how it would affect the
TRIO programs.

**MS. McLARNON:** Thank you. Before we move on to the next speaker,
could we ask that the three speakers that followed Ms. Ellis-Hill and
Mr. Niro to please sign in at the front desk so we have your full names.

Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Yes. Thanks for your comments. Just real briefly. I
can\'t remember the last time we actually regulated in the TRIO program.
I think it was before 1994 or so, but what I do know is that we have not
regulated in the TRIO program in sort of our negotiated rulemaking era.
This will be a first time for the TRIO community as well as for us with
this\--well, I guess we have had a round of negotiated rulemaking with
Gear Up. I was about to say that we\'ve not done much negotiated
rulemaking with our discretionary grant programs.

So, again, we appreciate all of your comments, and again look forward to
the TRIO community\'s participation in our process as we move forward.

Karen Sarrasa \[sic.\]\--please help me out.

**MS. SARACUSA:** Saracusa.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Okay.

**MS. SARACUSA:** Thank you.

Good morning. My name is Karen Saracusa. I\'m the Director of the Office
of Disability Support Services at Mt. Union College in Alliance, Ohio.
And today, I\'m here to speak on behalf of the Association on Higher
Education and Disability.

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak with you today.
First, let me say that AHEAD fully supports the Higher Education
Opportunity Act Reauthorization, which we believe will support the
efforts of institutions of higher education and our core constituency to
improve transition, support, and instructional services-­services and
instruction for all students with disabilities. With 77 percent of
students with disabilities\--I\'m sorry, while 77 percent of students
with disabilities hope to go to college, only 31 percent of students
with disabilities actually attend. We are hopeful that these new
regulations will increase the opportunities for all students with
disabilities and thereby make higher education a reality for all. AHEAD
is a professional membership organization of individuals involved in the
development of policy and in the provision of quality services to meet
the needs of persons with disabilities involved in all areas of higher
education. At this time, it boasts more than 2,500 members throughout
the United States and other countries.

AHEAD is fortunate to have formal partnerships with 30 regional
affiliates and numerous other professional organizations working to
advance equity in higher education for people with disabilities. AHEAD
dynamically addresses current and emerging issues with respect to
disability, education, and accessibility to achieve universal access. As
such, it is actively involved in all facets of promoting full and equal
participation by individuals with disabilities in higher education and
supporting the systems, institutions, professions, and professionals who
attend to the fulfillment of this important mission. There are five key
provisions that AHEAD wishes to address, and which impact higher
education and disability in transformative ways. Point one, preparing
general education teachers to more effectively educate students with
disabilities. AHEAD supports a structured multi-sensory approach as
outlined in 2000 by the National Reading Panel which highlighted the
five pillars of literacy that are critical to essential reading skills.

To that end, AHEAD supports the use of research-based methodologies in
determining the best approaches to instruction in reading and
mathematics. The education of teachers traditionally takes place within
the context of higher education, once philosophical and ideological
approaches toward instruction disability and accommodation are formed
within the context of teacher preparation programs and those teachers
encountered in other academic classes. By modeling appropriate teaching
techniques in teacher education programs or modeling best practices
towards providing accessible educational courses in higher education, we
can make great strides towards increasing consistency and teaching and
equality of opportunity in education.

Also, a long-term benefit of the structured multi-sensory approach is a
replicable methodology for young professionals to use and model. Point
two, advisory commission on accessible instructional materials and
postsecondary education for students with disabilities. AHEAD fully
supports all efforts to make instructional materials in a timely and
usable format accessible for all students with disabilities. This is
particularly important to those students with print disabilities, as was
outlined in the Wall Street Journal article from September 17, 2008,
which chronicled the increasing numbers of students with learning
disabilities entering postsecondary education and their needs for
varying levels of alternatives to print.

AHEAD and its members have been important early leaders in the creation,
development, and expansion of services to fill the void of alternatives
to print such as Bookshare.org, and has encouraged recording for the
blind and dyslexia\'s\--efforts to provide its materials in a digital
format. AHEAD member institutions have an obligation to ensure
non-discrimination of all persons with disabilities in accordance with
the language of the Americans with Disabilities Act, and the
Rehabilitation Act of 1973.

Therefore, AHEAD feels that the current definitions as listed in the
Higher Education Textbook Access Act of 2007 referring to print
disability would exclude or not sufficiently encompass all people with
disabilities who would participate in or benefit from the use of books
in electronic format. The definition needs to be revised and updated so
as not be based on the outdated NLSA definition, but on a definition
that reflects today\'s scientific realities. As our campuses are
beginning to deal with issues confronting returning servicemen and
women, the need to be broader in our ability to understand and address
disability-related impacts to reading and other academic tasks is
essential.

AHEAD believes that an advisory commission will be able to examine a
broad spectrum of materials and needs to encourage the common approaches
and flexibility in format that will allow students to move between and
within our educational systems. AHEAD stands ready to participate,
consult, and assist in all such efforts. Point three, e-text
clearinghouse model demonstration programs to support improved access to
postsecondary instructional materials for students with print
disabilities. Through its e-text initiative, a collaborative project
involving its members, the students, and institutions they serve,
publishers and numerous organizations, AHEAD has developed an
understanding of stakeholder positions and current capacities. AHEAD
supports the idea of a national clearinghouse for accessible text. AHEAD
sees it as a necessary and efficient first step in the seamless
provision of accessible digital text directly to students with print
impairment. AHEAD fully supports the goal and intention of this
legislation to improve timely, usable access to printed instructional
materials for people with disabilities.

AHEAD realizes that, while this current section is not the final answer
to issues of text accessibility, it clearly provides for a critical
first step in attacking a significant barrier to equality for people
with disabilities in higher education, including many with learning
disabilities, physical mobility-related disabilities, and blindness and
visual impairment. As higher education seeks to more fully include
people with disabilities, legislation supporting that movement is
tremendously important, and we applaud the committee\'s efforts in
assisting to build systems that can lead to systematic change. The
ultimate beneficiaries will be the hundreds of thousands of people with
a varying array of disabilities who seek full and equal access to the
benefits of higher education.

Point four, transition programs for students with intellectual
disabilities into higher education. With authorization of a new program
of model demonstration projects to promote the successful transition of
students with intellectual disabilities into higher education,
clarification is necessary regarding appropriate accommodations
institutions are to provide within existing courses, and the distinction
between self-contained programs that may be non-degree granting. AHEAD
is glad to be a partner in the collaborative discussions between
interested groups that include parents, students, and secondary
educators. A college experience, peer-appropriate activities, and
preparation for becoming a member of society, the workforce, the
community are part of a student\'s transition to independence.

AHEAD recognizes that these transition programs and grants, open
enrollment, and the availability of federal financial aid may provide
opportunities to some students previously unavailable. However, AHEAD
believes that it is critical to identify educational options and
expectations prior to assuming financial aid debt. Point five, data
collection. Colleges will be asked to report the \"percentage of
undergraduate students enrolled at the institution who are formally
registered with the office of disability services of the institution or
the equivalent office as students with disabilities.\" The collection of
data on students with disabilities has been inconsistent over time and
across institutions. The lack of consistent data has hindered the
evaluation of our progress toward inclusion, our identification of best
practices, and our ability to predict future resource needs. AHEAD sees
the simple headcount of students with disabilities seeking services or
accommodations as an opportunity to develop an infrastructure for the
collection of more meaningful data and the development of reliable
models for service delivery and resource planning. We are pleased to see
the addition of this provision, because students with disabilities, like
all other minority populations on campuses, deserve to be included and
counted.

Currently, there is no defined system or methodology in place to count
college students with disabilities. Determining how this task will be
accomplished is critical. Some of the issues that need to be considered
are\--AHEAD recognizes the lack of a universal system in defining
disabilities categorically. Effective collection of data will require a
common nomenclature. AHEAD recognizes that the need to register with
disability services offices varies based on the age and state of the
building environment. The use of universal design and instruction and
curricular programs and recency of disability status, such as may be the
case with wounded veterans accessing benefits under the GI Bill. Based
on this, we support the development of regulations that encourage a full
and accurate count of students with disabilities by using processes
similar to collecting data on race, gender, and veteran status. AHEAD
recognizes the importance of

enrollment\--numbers of students with disabilities, and supports a
process that will help identify both students who have self-identified,
as well as those students who make no formal request for accommodations.

AHEAD recognizes that a simple headcount of identified students with
disabilities has limited utility, and encourages the Department to
consider the long-term utility of tracking categories of disability or
clusters of accommodation needs when developing regulations that will
establish a foundation for future data-driven policy decisions. AHEAD
feels that further clarification is needed in order for the data
collection to be effective and meaningful. AHEAD would be happy to
participate, consult, and assist in this discussion.

Thank you again for the opportunity to speak with you today and to share
the views of the Association of Higher Education and Disability. We have
submitted our written comments already. Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you.

**MS. McLARNON:** Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Erin Redle.

**DR. REDLE:** Good morning. I am Dr. Erin Redle, and I\'m a speech
language pathologist at Cincinnati Children\'s Hospital Medical Center,
and an Adjunct Faculty Member at the University of Cincinnati.

Thank you for the opportunity to share the perspective from speech
language pathologists and audiologists on the issues of the Higher
Education Opportunity Act impacting our profession. I\'m here today
representing the American Speech Language Hearing Association, or what
we call ASHA. ASHA has over 130,000 members who specialize in treating
speech, language, swallowing, and hearing disorders. There are three
main areas this law will impact the fields of speech language pathology
and audiology, including student loan forgiveness, accreditation, and
inclusion of speech language pathologists, or what we call SLPs, and
audiologists in funding for teacher preparation programs. There is a
significant educational expense in becoming an SLP or an audiologist.
For SLPs, the master\'s degree is the entry-level degree. In almost
every program across the country, this requires six years of higher
education.

In audiology, the clinical doctorate is now the entry-level degree,
requiring seven to eight years of higher education. Unlike many fields
where one can obtain a bachelor\'s degree and then seek assistance from
an employer in pursuing the master\'s degree, SLPs must have that degree
to begin their professional career. My own personal student loan debt
when I completed my master\'s program was over \$60,000. And from
discussing this with some of my colleagues, this was not an abnormally
high number. Both the additional educational expense and time have
contributed to the existing shortage of speech pathologists across the
country, and more significantly, the predicted shortage in the future.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that between 2004 and 2014,
approximately 14,000 additional speech language pathologists and 3,000
additional audiologists are needed in the United States. Specifically,
in Ohio, an informal study completed by Nada Calendar, the Director of
the Ohio Master\'s Network Initiative Program in June of 2007 found that
116 unfilled school-based speech language pathology positions existed in
57 counties across this state. Student loan forgiveness programs would
provide a necessary incentive to recruit SLPs to work in the educational
setting. Traditionally, there are settings for SLPs with both higher
salaries and better perks, but as the number of children with speech
language and swallowing disorders continues to increase, we have a
responsibility to recruit and retain highly qualified SLPs to ensure
these children receive an appropriate education.

The second area I would like to address is accreditation. ASHA supports
the current statutory requirements related to accreditation, and
requests the Department of Education not consider accreditation as part
of the negotiated rulemaking. The determination of student achievement
should remain at the discretion of the individual institutions. ASHA has
worked diligently with graduate programs across the country to ensure
students acquire the necessary knowledge and skills to best serve
individuals with speech language, swallowing, and hearing disorders.

And finally, ASHA requests the Department of Education include SLPs and
audiologists among the service providers who are eligible for funds
under professional preparation programs in Title II. This would offer
another source of funding to both recruit and retain SLPs in the
schools, as well as to offer the same training for all individuals of a
student\'s educational team. Allowing states the flexibility to use
funds for training SLPs and audiologists would benefit children in both
regular education and special education.

Thank you for your time and consideration. ASHA looks forward to working
with the Department on these matters. Do you have any questions for me?

**MR. MADZELAN:** No.

**DR. REDLE:** Okay. Thank you.

**MS. McLARNON:** Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you. Marty Mehringer.

**MR. MEHRINGER:** Good morning. My name is Marty Mehringer. I am the
Director of Student Financial Services at Indiana Business College, and
I\'m here to represent Indiana Business College this morning.

I would like to briefly discuss two points that have been briefly
touched upon this morning, the first one the year-round Pell Grant.

At Indiana Business College, we operate on a quarterly basis, and we
have four or five starts a year depending upon the program. In this
scenario, the student could potentially earn one-and-a-half Pell Grants
within a year, depending on which award year you attribute the crossover
term. We would like to request that the Department interpret this
provision to allow institutions the widest possible flexibility to
determine on a student-by-student basis which award year to use for a
crossover payment period to provide the maximum benefit for each
individual student. The second point that I would like to discuss is the
additional \$2,000 in unsub that was passed through the ACASLA act. The
law provides that for loans disbursed from July 1st of 2008 to June 30th
of 2011, an institution can treat as non-Title IV revenue the amount of
Stafford Loan disbursed to a student that exceed the loan limits that
existed prior to the ACASLA Act. The intent was to allow funds that
otherwise would likely have been provided by private lenders but will
now be provided under the authority of the increase in loan limits to
count toward 90/10 compliance.

Some implementation opportunities arise. Because loans are divided into
multiple disbursements, the question arises as to how the institution
will attribute the extra loan amounts, especially in instances where
some disbursements will cross over into the next fiscal year. The most
sensible method for handling this would be to attribute the extra loan
amount to each payment period in proportion to its relation to the
amount of the Stafford Loan as it was initially packaged.

Schools should not be required to go back after the close of fiscal year
and reattribute the loan to the regular Stafford Loan if the student
subsequently drops out and does not receive the remaining disbursements.
Similarly, if a student drops out during the fiscal year and the funds
are subject to the return of Title IV refund calculation, the amount of
Stafford Loan repaid should proportionately attribute the extra and
regular Stafford Loans for the purposes of the 90/10 calculation. I
would like to thank the Secretary for the opportunity to present my
views and comments this morning.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you. Don Yearwood.

**MR. YEARWOOD:** Good morning. My name is Don Yearwood. I\'m President
of Carousel Beauty Colleges and the Spa Institute, and a member of the
American Association of Cosmetology Schools, AACS, Board of Directors.

I want to begin by thanking the Department for convening these meetings
seeking public comment and recommendations in the development of
regulations implementing the Higher Education Opportunity Act of 2008. I
am honored to be with you today and provide testimony on behalf of my
institution, and also the entire AACS membership. I am very proud to
announce, also, that Carousel Beauty Colleges and the Spa Institute,
which was founded in 1959, in 2009, we\'re getting ready to celebrate
our 50-year anniversary. So, we\'re very excited and proud of that. I
provided at the registration desk a letter addressing all of our
membership\'s regulatory priorities and recommendations, and I think
you\'ve got copies of those at the Panel.

My testimony will focus on three proprietary, specific areas where AACS
was actively involved in the development of the legislation, and are
looking forward to working with the Department as we enter the final
critical phase of the most recent reauthorization of the Higher
Education Act, implementing the provisions contained in HEOA.

The first area, year-round Pell. As the primary advocate on behalf of
the proprietary institutions of higher education for the new year-round
Federal Pell Grant Provision, AACS looks forward to working with the
Department to ensure the regulations provide all students with the
opportunity to complete their education and training in the shortest
amount of time possible, enabling them to enter the workforce sooner
while receiving access to all the Title IV grant funds they are eligible
to receive. To this end, AACS requests that the Department agree to
suspend implementation of and/or place a moratorium on the previously
promulgated regulations regarding the period used to determining the
awarding of Federal Pell Grants under the definition of prior minor year
charges, which were never subjected to federal negotiated rulemaking.
Specifically, review the effectiveness of requiring institutions to
award and disburse Federal Pell Grants using payment periods, not
academic year, in light of the new statute. Finally, include this issue
for deliberations as a specific part of the 2009 HEOA federal negotiated
rulemaking process.

The second area, cohort default rates. AACS suggests that the Department
focus particular attention on the provisions in the statute requiring
default prevention taskforces, reports to and technical assistance from
the Department, and the earlier two-year regulatory relief appeal. These
provisions call for more of a partnership between institutions and the
Department, which we hope will result in increased understanding of the
efforts undertaken by institutions to prevent student loan defaults.

Establish the interaction between the institution\'s default prevention
taskforces, and the Department\--not simply as a paper-shuffling
exercise, but as a full and open line of communication, and a way to
establish whether an institution should be held responsible for default
rates exceeding the threshold, or if default rates are actually a
reflection of external factors, such as the economic circumstances of
the student population it serves, which are truly outside the
institution\'s control. Finally, afford AACS the opportunity to
negotiate the outcome and resolution of this provision as a primary
negotiator appointed to the federal negotiating team assigned to address
this issue.

The third area, 90/10. In light of the most recent increases in student
financial aid, we are particularly concerned about how the regulations
will account for the \$2,000 increase in unsubsidized Federal Stafford
Loans disbursed between July 1, 2008, and June 30, 2011, and how those
loans will be tracked and counted as non-Title IV revenue. We recognize
that the attribution of these funds as non-Title IV revenues for the
purpose of 90/10 pose considerable problems as it relates to
disbursements, refunds, and the appropriate allocation of funds in the
calculation. We look forward to working with the Department and address
these complicated issues both with the near-term and throughout the
negotiated rulemaking process. AACS also requests that the Department
follow the statute closely and eliminate or modify those regulations in
conflict with the statue. This would include the treatment of
institutional loans through Fiscal Year 2012, tuition discounts counting
non-Title IV eligible program tuition as revenue, and also including
Section 529 accounts as revenue.

AACS is concerned about how institutions with fiscal year ends just
completed, September 30, those with calendar fiscal year ends soon to be
completed, and their CPAs are to assess and attest to an institution\'s
compliance with a new law which took effect upon enactment, August 14,
2008.

AACS recommends that the Department include a safe harbor provision in
the soon-to-be published dear colleague letter ensuring the institutions
that have made good faith effort to comply with the spirit and intent of
the law are not sanctioned or penalized for inconsistencies in
interpretation or reporting prior to the development and promulgation of
the regulations. Provide AACS the opportunity to negotiate outcome and
resolution of this provision as a primary negotiator, representing the
interest of the largest block of institutions measuring programs and
clock hours appointed to the federal negotiating team assigned to
address these proprietary, specific eligibility issues.

Thank you for allowing me to present these concerns to you. AACS looks
forward to submitting nominations to serve on the federal negotiating
committee assigned to implement the provisions we worked closely with
Congress to enact. Thank you very much.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you. Tom Siu.

**MR. SIU:** Ms. McLarnon, Mr. Madzelan, I am Tom Siu, Chief Information
Security Officer at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland Ohio.

Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I\'m going to discuss
the provisions of HR 4137, which address peer-to-peer file sharing
issues.

By the way of background, I am an information and network security
professional, with applicable experience in the private sector, the
federal sector, and in higher education. Case Western Reserve University
is a private research university, enrolling approximately 10,000
students with 4,000 undergraduates, 6,000 in graduate and professional
students. The majority of our undergraduates reside on campus, and our
graduate and professional students are enrolled in our medical, dental,
law, nursing, management, social work, engineering, and arts and
sciences colleges. Our Fiscal Year 2008 externally-sponsored research
was approximately \$375 million. We have approximately 20,000 network
users. My testimony will address three issues: What \"effectively
combat\" means, technology deterrence, the customer relationship model
in higher education\'s mission. The first is focused on Section 488 of
HR 4137, specifically related to the term \"effectively combat,\" which
is ambiguous and requires some clarification. Based on my experience as
the Chief Information Security Officer at the university, I recommend a
simply, five-level approach drawn from the National Institute of
Standards and Technology security program maturity levels. To define
effectively combat, these include, level one, written policies in place,
level two, procedures in place, level three, implementation of
procedures, level four, compliance testing, and level five, integration
into university operations.

I would like to provide an example of the ways in which the university
has been addressing issues related to P2P systems for several years. Our
effectiveness is, in part, the result of experiences learned from the
student judicial process. Those experiences have shown us that measures
of effectiveness should be pertinent to the matter and appropriate to
the context of the university; for example, residential universities
versus non-residential. Globally, the number of notifications is an
ineffective measure in this capacity, because locally the universities
experienced fully 20 percent of all the copyright infringement claims
that we receive are unverifiable and invalid. We suggest a self-reported
maturity level as a simple, qualitative measure. As a research
university, we have a technology infrastructure, and a program that
pretty much meets level five, but other colleges may not be at that same
level.

The second item I will address focuses on Section 488 and 493, which
both emphasize specific technology-based deterrents, and alternatives to
illegal file sharing. The legislative language assumes a static picture
of the issue of copyright violations. In our experience of security risk
management at the university, the IT role has flattened during the past
few years. Each measure taken to inhibit one behavior elicits a market
response with new products that circumvent each measure. This
cat-and-mouse game is similar to the vulnerability management and
antivirus problems that IT uses experience daily. These risks are
constantly present and, in some cases manifest as problems. On the issue
of legal alternatives, we advocate a marketplace approach, services such
as iTunes, to fill a market need. I recommend the Department abstain
from rulemaking that drives colleges and universities to picking a
market winner in terms of technical deterrence or alternative services.
Additionally, I recommend a reporting solution to the Department by
creating a small council of college and university chief information
security officers in concert with the American Council of Education, the
Association of American Universities, and Educause.

The council would participate in a negotiated rulemaking process and
develop an annual report to Congress with empirical information on the
operational status of the P2P networking and copyright infringement
issues.

The third issue I will discuss is the engagement of students through the
customer service relationship of a university with its students and user
populations. The university\'s mission is to provide its customers with
an environment conducive to preeminent research, education, and the
advancement of creative endeavor. Much of the research conducted at our
university capitalizes on the efficiencies provided by P2P technology.
The fulfillment of the educational mission may also include the
character development of the future leaders of the Nation, and through
responsible governance, we have an imperative for responsible behavior
of individuals. The rules established need to resonate with the primary
mission of the universities in educating and encouraging responsible
behavior and avoid creating an adversarial relationship with our
customer.

In conclusion, the university fully supports the enforcement of
copyright law. We believe an effective strategy for addressing the issue
is through a five-level security measure. The rulemaking on technology
and alternative services should defer to market forces, and we need the
flexibility to address responsible governance through our relationships
with our customers.

Ms. McLarnon and Ms. Madzelan, thank you for the opportunity to testify
today on P2P file sharing issues. I\'m prepared to answer any questions,
if you have any.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Any questions? Thank you very much.

**MS. McLARNON:** Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** John Shop \[sic.\].

**MR. SCHUPP:** Thank you for having me this morning. I appreciate it.
My name is John Schupp from Cleveland State University\--that\'s okay,
the name is often mispronounced. I represent the SERV Program at
Cleveland State University. It stands for Supportive Education for the
Returning Veteran.

I created this program in 2006 to address the needs of the veterans on
campus. It wasn\'t started from the top down; I had to work from the
bottom up. And what I did was I went to the VA (Veterans Administration)
and met with veterans from the Vietnam, the Persian Gulf I era, and
asked them, when they were on campus back then, what did they wish they
had available to them? Why did they drop out? The usage rate of the GI
Bill, and I got this from different sources\--the usage rate, the
complete usage rate, is less than eight percent, meaning they don\'t
graduate, and there\'s reasons why they don\'t graduate, and that\'s
what I found out. When I listened to the vets from Vietnam and Persian
Gulf I they gave me many reasons for it, but the top five are the ones
that I use to address the SERV Program.

The first one is that first day on campus. I walk them through the
registrars, the \"bursars,\" the cashiers, the admissions process\--I
walk them through personally, because when they get out of the military,
they don\'t know where to go, and they walk on campus and the first
thing they see is they see someone behind a desk and they say, \"I want
to go to school,\" and they say, \"Oh, you\'re in the wrong building.
You want to go over there, then you go over, then back over there, then
come back here.\" Well, they\'re home by that time. So, I address that
personal walkthrough.

The second issue is we have classes set aside just for vets. The Gen Ed
classes, English 101, Math 101, and so on\--and what I have found-­we\'ve
been doing this now since fall of \'07\--spring of \'08 was when it was
enacted. What I have found is when they are among themselves, they have
the camaraderie that they had when they were in the military. They are
succeeding because of that. When I talked to the Vietnam vets they told
me that, \"John, we\'re not stupid; we just couldn\'t concentrate. That
was our problem.\" And if you can\'t concentrate, and you can\'t
remember, you can\'t pass the exam, and then you fail the class. So,
what I did was is I though, if I can create an environment for them that
they can relax in and concentrate, perhaps they could pass, and this is
what has happened.

When I had my first set of classes\--and I teach chemistry there\--when
I had my first set of classes, I had 14 students in it. I gave out the
first exam and I was concerned about how they were going to react to it.
I gave out the first exam, it was chemistry, it wasn\'t easy\--it
wasn\'t like \"fill in the blank and circle this.\" They took it­-they
had an hour to take it, they were fine, they got up, handed the exam in,
didn\'t have any problems. I graded it on a higher average than my
civilians. So, then I asked them the question the next day. I said,
\"When you walk into a classroom full of civilians, a hundred or so, in
a Gen Ed class\--a hundred civilians\--does this go through your mind:
\'Okay. I\'ve got civilians in here. I\'ve got people in here I may try
to protect, people who may try to attack me, I\'ve got to find the
exits, I\'ve got to see what I have to do, if I hear a noise, what\'s
wrong with that noise, why am I thinking this way\--what\'s question
one?\"

That\'s what goes through their mind. They are trained to protect
civilians and trained to protect themselves, and when they walk into a
room full of civilians, that\'s what they have to do. If a civilian
walks into a classroom for a test, \"What\'s question one?\" I went back
and talked to the VA and talked to the vets, they all said,
\"Absolutely, that\'s what we go through.\" Now, put them in a room full
of vets. They walk in, it\'s all military. \"I don\'t have to worry
about it. I don\'t have to protect them and they\'re not going to try to
kill me. What\'s question one?\" That\'s why it works.

So, what we\'re doing at CSU and then Section T of the Higher Ed Act,
which I appropriate the DOE putting together\--what we\'re doing is
we\'re creating a comfortable environment for them to learn to
concentrate, remember, take exams, get confidence, so that, in the next
semester\--now, we offer four classes the first semester\--12 credit
hours for full-time accreditation, full-time benefits, and then the next
semester we only offer nine so that they have to take another class in
civilian world, just so that they can get used to going into civilian.
The third semester, then, is going to be six credits in SERV and six
credits in civilian. This way, they take baby steps back into civilian
world. It helps in the transition. The third item that I\'ve implemented
is bringing the VA to the campus. These people have questions, they have
concerns, they have issues that an academic world really can\'t answer,
and I don\'t want to have academics involved in that.

The VA are the experts. Bring them in. Have an office. They\'re there
for them all the time, one day a week, one day a month, whatever. With
the new GI Bill being implemented August 1, 2009, just to give you some
numbers\--if 70 percent\--got to make sure I get this right\--if 70
percent of the 1.7 million deployed vets since 9/11 attend community
colleges, the cost of living allowance, the \$950 just to go to school,
above and beyond tuition and books\--the cost of living allowance would
be \$20.5 billion going into the communities and towns of that college.
If 40 percent transferred then to universities and continued on\--these
are not big numbers, now. 40 percent transferred, you\'re looking at
\$16.4 billion going into the towns, just for these guys and women to
live, buying food, cars, whatever.

Now, the personal impact of the veteran is tremendous. The transition
that\'s occurring right now is remarkable. They will be able to talk
about their experiences before class starts. They\'re able to discuss
what they saw, what they felt, what they heard, and then English starts,
and they have English. Then they talk about it again for ten minutes and
then math starts. And what I\'m seeing that\'s occurring is it\'s easier
for them to talk about their past experiences when they\'re immediately
focused on their future. That\'s what I see happening right now. And
they\'re also getting used to the civilian world slowly while they still
have their comfort zone with their group in their class. Lastly, I would
encourage the Nation\'s universities and community colleges to take
advantage of Section T in the Higher Ed Act. It provides funding for the
same kind of program I have at CSU. When I developed it\--and I worked
with Senator Brown to create this Bill\--when I developed it, I knew
that the university would have a tough time trying to come up with the
money to get this program going. That\'s why I did it, and that\'s why
I\'m so pleased that it\'s in the Higher Ed Act. I\'m so excited for
these vets when they come back because they need to have the
universities and community colleges at their disposal. I feel that, with
the widespread use of Section T in the Higher Ed Bill, we can make this
generation the next Great Generation.

Thank you for your time.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you.

**MS. McLARNON:** Thank you.

MR. MADZELAN: Well, we will take a break now for about ten minutes, and
then we will reconvene at about 10:40. Thank you.

**\[Brief Recess.\]**

**MR. MADZELAN:** We\'re going to reconvene. And our speaker is Dave
LaRue.

**MR. LaRUE:** My name is Dave LaRue. I represent Akron Institute of
Herzing College. Akron Institute has been an institution in northeast
Ohio since 1970. The Herzing College System has been in existence since
1965.

My personal experience: I\'ve had 29 years in proprietary education, 19
of those was with ITT, the last 10 years have been with Akron Institute.
Through these committee hearings, you will here testimony again, later
on today, throughout the day, as well as in the previous hearings from
both public, private, and proprietary schools. All three venues have a
purpose in serving the community of students wanting postsecondary
education. The access to Title IV funds, the rules and regulations
through the Higher Education Act apply to all of these institutions, but
not necessarily equally. In the 29 years I\'ve seen regulations been
passed and gone away, new ones revised, new ones modified, and they
don\'t always equally treat all of the participants in the programs.
What I would ask in this testimony today is that, through these
hearings, through the committee work, that all three levels,
proprietary, private, and public institutions be given the opportunity
to not only present information, but also be members of the committees
as represented earlier this morning and allow for participation from all
of these organizations.

Not all students that seek further education, postsecondary education,
are geared towards traditional schools. Career schools are necessary for
those people, again, through previous testimony today\--those students
that don\'t have the desire or the need to go to traditional schools. It
is our job as a career school to provide that opportunity, and we have
to have equal footing with other institutions to provide that
opportunity. In particular, all schools should be required to have the
same disclosures through accrediting agencies that have to be approved
periodically through the Department of Education. Those accrediting
agencies have safeguards to prevent violations of those rules and
regulations.

States have their own rules and regulations governing the opportunities
to education to postsecondary. Those regulations are reviewed, are
monitored, the accrediting agencies are required to review and monitor
the operations of the schools. They should be equally responsible at all
levels, public, private, and proprietary. One of the things that it was
asked that we present during testimony is in reporting of disclosure of
retention rates within a school. We have a clientele that\--we have
allied health programs, primarily\--probably about 85 percent of our
student population is female. We have students that become pregnant and
have to stop their education. They are not dropping out, they are
stopping their education for a short time. They plan\--we ask them to
sign a plan saying that they are intending to come back, assuming that
all procedures and everything occur as expected. Those students do not
count to benefit our drop rate. Those students are counted as a drop,
but they do not readily fall back into place as part of the retention
rate.

Another disclosure, and again, previously stated in testimony, is the
template or a standard of reporting. Another area of reporting is
employment rates. Career schools are measured by the employability of
their students. As a general term associated with it, their outcomes.
The outcome of their education is, are they doing what they\'ve been
trained to do. Education is vital. Education is important. But what they
do with that education upon completion is the most critical item. The
last thing I\'d like to identify, because Herzing College does also have
an online campus, and one of the discussions in the regulations is the
distance education verification. There are means in which that can be
monitored, but as mentioned previously, just like with spyware and
viruses, every time somebody comes up with a new plan, there\'s always
somebody to come up with a plan to go against that plan.

No matter what verification, no matter what method is used, there\'s
always going to be a way in which someone will be able to abuse, not
use, the system. I would ask the Department, in consideration of rules
and regulations concerning distance education verification look at the
financial as well as the practical aspect of doing the verification. One
of the suggestions was utilization of a PIN number. The Department of
Education currently uses PIN numbers for the students for financial aid
to be able to go in and look at their FAFSA, make adjustments to their
FAFSA, and so forth. There is no verification just because somebody has
a four-, five-, or six-digit PIN\--there is no verification that the
person actually entering that PIN is the one that is looking at that
screen. There is also no verification that the person entering the PIN,
although it may be their PIN and they are actually entering it in, there
is no verification or clarification that that is the individual actually
doing the work at the time whether it be through an educational course,
whether it be filling out forms, or whatever the case may be.

We all hear everyday about identity theft. People may be able to get
identities of people, use their PINs, use their access, unbeknownst to
the person, or known to the person for the intent of doing better than
what they necessarily are qualified to do. Again, I would like to thank
the opportunity of the Department of Ed to present this testimony. I
would also encourage the Department to allow proprietary schools equal
access to the rulemaking process so that we can provide the education
that we have provided for so many years, an effective education.

Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you. Nick York.

**MR. YORK:** Good morning. My name is Nick York. I\'m a Partner with
the law firm of Tucker, Ellis, and West, and I\'m here today
representing the Recording Industry Association of America, or RIAA.

For the past few weeks, you have heard from representatives of both the
entertainment and education communities, all of whom have provided you
with examples of effective solutions and arguments for flexible
regulations. I won\'t spend time rehashing all the details, but I would
like to take this opportunity to sum up the importance of the file
sharing provisions in the HEOA and the ways in which administrators can
best follow their guidelines to their schools own benefit.

The requirements of Section 488 of the HEOA highlight the fundamental
importance of alerting students to the hazards and penalties of illegal
file sharing. As others have mentioned, most schools by now include at
least a basic explanation of these issues in their acceptable use
policies, but again, it is the clarity and the accessibility of these
policies that determine their effectiveness. Including such policies in
orientation materials with periodic and thorough reminders is essential.
And finally, enforcement of such policies must be swift and meaningful.

As policies are only as good as their enforcement, schools should
implement consequential punishment schemes and impose penalties upon
students who violate stated policies. Section 493\'s discussion of
adoption of legitimate services reflects the widespread understanding of
the effectiveness of such a step. In fact, according to a new Educause
survey, 15 percent of U.S. schools already offer some type of
campus-sponsored music or movie download services, and another 17
percent have plans to or are considering implementing them.

For years, the entertainment industry heard individuals, including
students, excuse online theft because they didn\'t have an alternative
to acquire their content online, but today there are countless
opportunities for people to get their music online, from download
services like iTunes and Amazon to subscription services like Rhapsody.
If universities can wean their students off of abusing the schools\'
networks by adopting and offering a legal alternative, it just makes
sense to do so, particularly if that service is free to both the
students and the school. Finally, we have heard much about Section
493\'s requirement that schools develop plans to address this illegal
activity, including through the use of technology-based deterrents. We
have heard about the significant cost savings such technology can
provide, and the security and network integrity offered by adoption of
these solutions.

Of course, we\'ve also heard the requests for flexibility in their
implementation, and we agree with this call for flexibility, as
different schools have different network sizes and architectures. The
fact is that technologies that many of us have been discussing including
Audible Magic and Red Lambda provide administrators with considerable
flexibility in their configuration. These solutions are not
one-size-fits-all. They account for schools\' unique situation and
provide reasonable and appropriate solutions, including the limiting of
their use to residents\--hall networks, where a large portion of the
infringement occurs. And of course, these businesses want to work with
schools. The more flexible they are, the more schools will be willing to
implement them, and we hope that the Department will encourage schools
to contact these providers and find solutions, truly effective
solutions, for their own networks. Again, we thank the Department for
holding these hearings, and allowing us to provide you with information
on how schools can best perform the provisions outlined in the HEOA. We
hope the Department will continue to include representatives of the
entertainment and content industries to provide ongoing assistance in
the rulemaking process.

Thank you very much.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you. Todd Jones.

**MR. JONES:** Good morning. My name is C. Todd Jones, and I\'m
President and General Counsel of the Association of Independent Colleges
and Universities of Ohio.

AICUO represents independent, nonprofit colleges and universities in our
state, ranging in size from 130 students at the Art Academy of
Cincinnati, to 10,000 at the University of Dayton.

Our members graduated over one-third of the state\'s baccalaureate
degree recipients last year, and award degrees from the associate to
doctoral levels. Our institutions include dozens of liberal arts
colleges and faith-based institutions, a historically Black college,
major research institutions, professional graduate programs,
single-purpose colleges for the arts, nursing, and medicine, and
institutions with major online presences. AICUO thanks the Department
for holding these meetings here to gain an understanding of the
interested public\'s view about HEOA. AICUO was supportive of efforts to
reauthorize the Higher Education Act, in part because the law has many
helpful elements, and because it\'s been years since a reauthorization
has moved through the legislative process. At the same time, we have
serious concerns about the burdens, the provisions the law will pose on
our member institutions. To that end, our comments will focus on three
areas: general comments on the law, reporting requirements, and
regulatory process.

Through its elective representatives and the President, the people have
spoken, HEOA represents compromises and consensus on areas of major
federal interest. The regulatory process that follows should address the
practical limitation of those issues. While every administration and
federal agency stands behind the principle that the law is the law, and
there are always cases of principle being discarded in the breach.
\"Shall\" has been read to mean \"may.\" Advisory panels have been
stacked to preclude views opposed by the current administration, and
rulemaking practices have been stretched beyond limit to achieve
particular ends.

Our association strongly recommends that the U.S. Department of
Education reflect on its experiences in rulemaking over the past four
decades, and reaffirm its interest in being stewards of the will of the
elected legislature, re-embracing the role of practical\--administrator
should be a paramount concern as the law is implemented. Secondly, on
reporting requirements. There\'s no question that Congress has asked the
American higher education institutions to hold themselves publicly
accountable through government reporting mechanisms. Arguments for other
means, both more and less burdensome and intrusive were rejected through
the interest-balancing process of legislative democracy. But now that
Congress has spoken, the U.S. Department of Education retains the
responsibility of implementing what was passed in the least burdensome
manner that still meets the agency\'s responsibilities under the law. To
that end, AICUO offers several principles to improve the implementation
of Ed\'s reporting responsibilities.

First, use existing mechanisms whenever possible. While there are many
new reporting obligations in HEOA, there is little requiring that new
systems of collection be developed. We recommend that, whenever
possible, Ed use existing means of collection. Use IPED\'s definitions
whenever possible. Consolidate reporting requirements together. Use
existing public reporting and dissemination systems, even if they are
privately held. To put meaning to that last example, when the Department
has the choice between collecting and publishing information about
colleges or simply requiring a college to publish information on its own
website, the latter option should always be viewed as preferable. Not
only is it more likely the information will be consumed by people
interested in that institution, but the cost of doing so will be less,
and the likelihood of it being revised in a timely manner will be
increased. Similarly, non-governmental efforts offer ED the
opportunities to identify best practices.

For example, the Department is to be commended in turning COOL into
college navigator, a significantly more appealing design, yet both pale
in comparison to U-CAN, a simplified effort developed by the National
Association of Independent Colleges and Universities. U-CAN leverages
colleges\' own websites and creates a more functional repository for
policymaker information. ED should capitalize on these successful ideas
instead of offering pale imitations by deferring to such non-federal
public sector resources whenever possible.

The concise design of U-CAN itself highlights another core concept: less
is more. It is simply not possible to underestimate the real impact of
regulatory burden on small colleges. Most of my 51 members do not have a
full-time institutional researcher, and any new reporting requirements
are going to fall on staff who have other existing responsibilities. The
concern is valid and will result in real increased tuition costs to
students. Our smallest institution has 130 full-time equivalent head
count. Every simplified financial aid application, every unduplicated
reporting requirement, every day saved in professional development about
how to report to the U.S. Department of Ed is meaningful for that
institution. For an institution of that size, reporting is done by
professors themselves, and administrators who also teach. Every hour you
save means actual educational value for students.

Third, embrace flexibility. Just as institutions and states differ in
form and function, so too they differ in relevance to policy issues and
regulatory implementation. At times, ED elevates the need for perfect
uniformity above flexibility. For example, the Department continues to
wrestle with efforts to align public and private college accounting data
even though the professional standards for reporting that data differ
substantially. ED compounds the error by assuming what has been reported
actually reflects what is happening at different institutions, when
instead the need for perfect alignment has created data that no one
honestly believes is similar.

In a break from the past, ED should seriously consider with every
reporting requirement whether the form or content of data reporting
should vary by institution\'s size, type, or form, for example, public,
independent, and for-profit colleges. In nearly every area, ED has the
authority to make these kinds of distinctions but chooses not to do so
because, a, establishing an appropriate justification for a distinction
is difficult as setting a standard for the distinction itself and, b,
the desire for uniformity is a powerful administrative motivator. AICUO
recommends that ED embrace this challenge and review every rule for the
opportunity to be flexible in the implementation of rules across type of
institutions.

Fourth, provide interim guidance. Thoughtful regulation takes time, but
many of the provisions of this Bill took effect immediately upon
President Bush\'s signature. While the Association understands that ED
shares the college community\'s burden of implementing the law in this
manner, it is only the colleges, and ultimately their students through
tuition costs and lost services, who will be penalized for actions that
are only judged in hindsight as failures to comply, and for whom errors
in guidance lead to higher costs and lost opportunities. The interaction
between the provisions in Title IV, which is subject to negotiated
rulemaking and Title I, which is not, are murky at best. Ed should offer
interim guidance and do so with the greatest of care. Though I shudder
to think it, negotiated rulemaking and the arrival of a new
administration could mean these provisions are in place for a long time.
We strongly encourage you to exercise the greatest care in creating that
guidance.

Lastly as to the regulatory process. For regulatory process, AICUO makes
recommendations in two areas. First, speaking as one who has
significant, high-level, recent experience with the development of
advisory panels in the U.S. Department of Education, on behalf of AICUO,
I most strongly recommend that ED attempt to identify negotiators for
the rulemaking process that represent a consensus of constituent
communities about whom would be an appropriate negotiator. Nominating
individuals that meet statutory requirements but who are selected for
their personal willingness to meet particular policy ends sought by
senior officials is not an acceptable means of implementing
proposed\--implementing negotiated rulemaking provisions. We recommend
that the Department pick negotiators in a manner that reflects the will
of constituencies, even when that may run counter to administration
priorities. ED owes this to the people who have entrusted the power to
them through a democratic process. Whether one agrees with negotiated
rulemaking as created by Congress, it\'s the law and should be reflected
as such.

Second, in previous departmental forms, many have suggested that certain
technical panels be made up of interested specialists to address narrow
policy considerations. To that, AICUO and private colleges dissent. File
sharing, articulation practices, and other controversial topics that
have reached compromise through legislation deserve review by special
and general interests alike. The most impacted of those, and those
partially or minimally impacted, have differing interests, but equally
deserve the right to a voice. We encourage the Department whenever
possible to ensure that subgroups and special panels are kept open to
broader input and that their recommendations are subject to full review
by larger stakeholder interest.

Thank you very much for your time.

**MS. McLARNON:** Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you. Ken McGhee.

**MR. McGHEE:** Good morning. My name is Kenneth McGhee, and I work here
at Cuyahoga Community College as the Executive Director of Financial
Aid.

Good morning. Thank you for selecting our college as one of the few
locations nationwide to hold this important event. The Higher Education
Act of 1965 as amended has an interesting history. I hold in my hand a
copy of the original legislation. The first sentence of this document
reads as follows: \"An Act to strengthen the educational resources for
our colleges and universities, and to provide financial assistance for
students in postsecondary and higher education.\" Working as a financial
aid professional for the past 13 years, I have firsthand knowledge that
the federal legislation has an important impact upon numerous students
and their families. Financial aid administrators have four core duties
and responsibilities.

First, we work to provide comprehensive financial assistance services to
students, parents, high schools, and the general public, and our local
community.

Second, we coordinate efforts with numerous campus departments to fully
utilize technology to streamline the financial aid awarding process, and
to better assist students by offering more options online.

Third, we review office operations for compliance for federal and state
regulations.

Fourth, we consider industry best practices to see if they are a good
fit for our institution. As I read the changes in the law, it appears
that an attempt to create a balance between these four competing themes
was in place.

I applaud your efforts to do so. I would like to now comment on specific
areas of the latest version of the law which directly relate to the task
which financial aid administrators juggle on a daily basis.

Number one, year-long Pell Grant funding. I support your efforts that
led to the realization that some students attend school year-round. This
change has the potential to increase student access to attain the
college degree. My suggestion is that recordkeeping and eligibility
monitoring requirements, which are necessary, and they\'re also pending
development, be made keeping in mind a way to keep accountability, but
not at the same time add too much administrative burden to a financial
aid office.

As you are aware, front line financial aid administrators have to
balance their time between advising current and future students about
numerous financial aid options, at the same time by reviewing every
single document that is turned to the office for legal compliance. That
is a constant juggle for financial aid administrators on a daily basis.

Second of all, I would like to talk about the provision for professional
judgments for student loans. As you are aware, the definition of a
family continues to change. Over the past 13 years, I have witnessed an
increasing number of students in a family be able to document neglect or
abuse. At the same time, more parents are refusing to serve as a main
financial support for their children\'s educational cost. I understand
your efforts to increase student access by providing flexibility for a
financial aid administrator to award a student an unsubsidized loan in
this type of situation. Two concerns come to mind related to this
provision.

First, many middle class families may utilize this option instead of
following the standard financial aid process. Efforts are already
underway, led by the U.S. Secretary of Education\'s office to make the
FAFSA process easier for students and their families. The new
professional judgment flexibility may not support the efforts by the
Secretary\'s office to make the FAFSA process more straightforward.

My second concern is first-generation students and low-income students
have shown that many are not comfortable with the financial aid process
and overall college process. Research, mainly out of the University of
California, Southern California College of Education, has shown that
many low-income and first-generation students are just uncomfortable
with the Internet altogether. Many dedicated financial aid
administrators and other educators are working very hard to provide
workshops and other outreach efforts to assist students and families in
this situation. The new professional judgment flexibility could result
in many Pell Grant eligible students not completing the financial aid
process due to fear of the process and, in essence, only receive an
unsubsidized student loan.

My other concern relates to professional judgment adjustments
altogether. The change in the law now allows nursing home expenses not
covered by insurance, unusually high dependent care expenses, and
student dislocated worker status as examples of areas a financial aid
administrator may use to make professional judgment to a family\'s data
elements. It appears to me this flexibility was already in place due to
Section 479 of the Higher Education Act, which reads as follows:

\"Nothing in this part should be interpreted as limiting the authority
of the financial aid administrator on the basis of adamant document to
make adjustments on a case-by-case basis. However, this authority shall
not be construed to permit an administrator of financial aid to deviate
from contributions expected in the absence of special circumstances.\"

By the law now specifically naming a few circumstances, it appears many
financial aid administrators may continue to request clarification
related to the topic \"professional judgment.\" It appears to me the
spirit and intent of Section 479 already allows for special
consideration to making a case-by-case decision for a student and their
family. My suggestion is no further unusual or extenuating circumstances
be added to the current professional judgment doctrine. In closing, I
would generally request that the next steps in a negotiated rulemaking
process keep in mind the language and ideas and the original law in
1965, and the original themes appear to be student access, community
service, and federal support for state colleges and universities.

Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you. Karen Solinski.

**MS. SOLINSKI:** Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity of
testifying before you this morning.

My name is Karen Solinski, and I am the Assistant Director for Legal and
Governmental Affairs with the Higher Learning Commission of the North
Central Association. The Higher Learning Commission is one of seven
regional accrediting agencies that provide institutional accreditation
within areas of jurisdiction that are defined by regional boundaries
across the United States.

The regional boundaries of the Higher Learning Commission encompass 19
states, contained in an aggregate nearly two million square miles from
Arkansas to Arizona. Within this Region, the Commission has granted
accreditation status to over 1,000 institutions. The total head count of
students at these institutions accredited by the Commission is nearly
5.9 million students. The Commission\'s membership includes institutions
with a broad range of institutional mission. Within the membership are
several major public and private research institutions such as the
University of Michigan or Ohio State Northwestern, and prominent liberal
arts colleges such as Oberlin College right here in Ohio.

But further broadening the Commission\'s membership are nearly 350
community and technical colleges, including this fine institution,
Cuyahoga, as well as free-standing seminaries, schools of law, schools
of medicine, schools of psychology, and schools of nursing. The
Commission membership truly exemplifies the broad range of higher
education at various degree levels being offered across the U.S. The
Commission has been recognized by the U.S. Department of Education since
it began recognizing accrediting agencies many years ago. The Commission
believes that it is providing an important service to its membership by
engaging in the regulatory process and voluntarily submitting to review
by the Department in order to be recognized as a gatekeeper agency.

The Commission acknowledges that, in the past, federal regulations
governing the recognition of accrediting agencies have, in general,
fairly asked accreditors to demonstrate their appropriate stewardship of
the task entrusted to them of assuring for public benefit the quality of
institutions to which they have granted status. It is in the spirit of
maintaining this fair and balanced inquiry in the regulatory process
that I offer my comments on a few areas in the new provisions of the law
affecting the recognition process for accrediting agencies.

First of all, due process. The Commission has a longstanding commitment
to procedural fairness and due process in every aspect of its processes,
but particularly in processes that result in the actions to withdraw or
deny accreditation. However, the Commission believes that it is very
important for the agency to continue to be able to withdraw or deny
accreditation and to be able to do so in a reasonably timely manner.
Excessively stringent regulations related to due process could have the
effect of significantly slowing the process and prolonging the ability
of institutions that may no longer qualify for accredited status to
retain that status and to continue to recruit and admit students while
doing so. We cannot imagine that that result is one that Congress, the
Department, or the public would want. After much debate during the
legislative process about the appropriate extent of due process that
should be afforded to institutions, Congress seems to have struck a
reasonable balance between approaches that were suggested by various
parties. We would urge the Department to accept the moderate approach
outlined by Congress to allow agencies to take various approaches
reasonable to the agency and not expand the expectations of due process
beyond the clear boundaries set in the new provisions of the law.

Secondly, transfer credit. The language in the Act seems to set a clear
expectation that accreditors confirm that an institution has transfer of
credit policies that are publicly disclosed and include a statement of
the criteria established by the institution regarding the transfer of
credit earned at another institution. This is a new regulatory demand
both for accreditors and for institutions. While we are willing to rise
to meet the challenge and believe that our institutions will do so as
well, we ask the Department to move with some caution in drafting
regulations on a topic that was very controversial during the
legislative process. While there may be voices that urge the Department
to craft regulations that add more specificity, we believe the language
in the Act is clear on its face, and there is no need for regulations
that provide additional refinements or reopen some of the concerns
expressed by institutions about retaining their autonomy to make
reasonable decisions about the quality of academic credits provided by
individual students transferring into their institutions.

Thirdly, distance education. Distance education is a complicated and
rapidly changing phenomenon in higher education. There is an increasing
level of expertise developing in higher education from such
organizations as WCET and from individual\--key individuals who invested
professional careers in understanding and advancing quality distance
education. It\'s important that accreditors have the freedom to work
both with their institutions and with these experts to implement
accrediting approaches that provide reasonable rigorous authentication
of students while at the same time taking account of appropriate privacy
implementation and cost concerns. Excessively detailed or prescriptive
regulations, especially ones that may be drafted before there was a
clear understanding or consensus on how best to approach this challenge
may very well move how both higher education and accreditation\--into
approaches that do not provide the most long-term, effective solution to
the challenge of student authentication.

We urge the Department to remember the report language that indicates
that Congress did not intend to mandate a specific methodology or
technology in this area.

Finally, we ask the Department to adopt flexible rules, not only in
relation to technology and methodology, but also in relation to
timetable. It will take some time for accreditors and institutions to
move beyond passwords and ID cards, but we believe that working together
with the Department in a flexible regulatory environment, we can achieve
appropriate solutions for the challenge of authenticating students in
ways that protect students and the public.

Finally, monitoring institutional growth. The Commission acknowledges
that it accredits some of the institutions that have experienced some of
the most significant growth in recent years. We are mindful of our
current responsibility under provisions of the law that continue, in
effect, to ensure that these and all other institutions the Commission
accredits remain in compliance throughout the institution\'s
accreditation period with all the Commission\'s accrediting standards.

To fulfill this obligation, we are already collecting large amounts of
financial and non­financial data, including enrollment data and
conducting follow-up monitoring in relation to this data. The Commission
also has substantive change policies that allow it to take special steps
to review certain types of institutional growth and that mandate
monitoring of growth of sites where significant enrollment growth is
also likely to occur. In short, we are already monitoring extensively in
multiple ways that relate to institutional and enrollment growth.

While there is a sense in this new legislation that enrollment growth at
accredited institutions is a concern, we wanted to remind the Department
that enrollment growth, where conducted responsibly, can mean that more
students have access to education at accredited institutions. Increased
access for students is an important national goal, as this Department
has already indicated. Regulatory approaches that lay out a detailed
framework that institutions and accreditors must satisfy before an
institution may be permitted to grow or that require an accrediting
agency to set quantitative thresholds for growth or limitations on
growth, or that even control or halt growth under certain circumstances,
would be burdensome for the Commission to implement, but, more
importantly for accredited institutions, likely to have a chilling
effect on the expansion of access to higher education. We would urge the
Department to adopt a flexible regulatory approach that allows
recognized agencies to build on policies and procedures already in place
and that are based on accreditors\' judgment of institutional
individual\'s history, and the knowledge that the institution gain
through the peer review process. If the regulations do permit a flexible
regulatory approach on this topic as we are requesting, we would also
ask the Department staff at all levels to adopt a consistent approach
that does not stray from the plain meaning of the regulation as it
evaluates the compliance of individual agencies over the next few years.
As many of you know, an enormous challenge for accreditors in recent
years has been interpretations of regulations that not only differed
from one Department staff member to another, but seemed significantly to
extend or even violate the plain meaning of the regulation. Such an
environment creates uncertainty, not only for accreditors, but for
institutions that go about the important task of trying to educate
students.

In conclusion, I want to express the commitment of regional accreditors
to work with the Department through the negotiated rulemaking process,
to achieve appropriate regulations that accreditors and institutions can
effectively and flexibly address, and that will also meet the needs of
the Department. Accreditors, both regional and specialized, can provide
the best input on how we do our work and how our work can be adapted to
meet the demands of the new legislation. Accreditors stand willing and
ready to work with the Department to meet the expectations of these
legislative changes, and to stimulate the best results in our accredited
institutions.

Thank you very much.

**MS. McLARNON:** Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you. Julie \[sic.\] Joseph-Silverstein.

**MS. JOSEPH-SILVERSTEIN:** Good morning. It is my pleasure to
officially welcome you to Cuyahoga Community College. We\'re honored to
have been chosen as a site for these hearings.

My career spans over 20 years working at university commuter campuses
and the community college, institutions that often serve large numbers
of students for which financial aid plays a crucial role in their\--

**MR. MADZELAN:** Excuse me. Just, can you state your name and who you
represent, just for our transcriber.

**MS. JOSEPH-SILVERSTEIN:** I\'m sorry. My name is Jacquelyn
Joseph-Silverstein. I\'m the Executive Vice President for Academic and
Student Affairs at Cuyahoga Community College.

In my current role as the Executive Vice President for Academic and
Student Affairs, a significant portion of my work is dedicated to
ensuring not only that our students have opportunities to access higher
education, but also that they are provided with the programs and support
services that are needed for them to successfully achieve their goals. I
appreciate the financial support you have provided to assist our
students in meeting their educational goals. During the last academic
year, 2007-2008, 12,216 Cuyahoga Community College students received
approximately \$43 million in federal grants and student loans. The vast
majority of federal funding is from the Pell Grant Program. Others from
our institution will be giving testimony later in the day. The sections
of the law that are related to year-round Pell Grant funding, veterans
issues, Federal Work Study, and college admissions requirements
certainly demonstrate a federal commitment to college access.

I\'m very pleased to see the changes made to the Pell Grant Program that
provide year-round access to these funds for students. The literature
shows that student retention and ultimately graduation is positively
correlated with summer enrollment. Thus, these changes not only impact
student access to education, but will impact student success as well.

Community colleges face real challenges as the numbers of under prepared
students who face many competing personal responsibilities and financial
issues come through our doors. We take our responsibility to help these
students successfully complete their education very seriously. As a
participant in the National Community College Initiative founded by the
Lumina Foundation that is called Achieving the Dream, Cuyahoga Community
College has extended its access mission to include students\' success,
and has a number of programs and services to this end. Ultimately,
public colleges and federal government share the goal of educating
students, enabling them to make positive contributions to our global
society.

Thank you very much.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you. Chuck Knopfle.

**MR. KNOPFLE:** Hello, my name is Chuck Knopfle. I am the Assistant
Provost and Director of Student Financial Assistance at Miami University
here in Ohio.

Miami is one of 13 four-year public universities in Ohio. We have three
campuses: our main residential campus in Oxford, our regional commuter
campuses in the cities of Hamilton and Middletown. Miami, which will
celebrate our 200th anniversary in the upcoming year, enrolls 21,000
students and we manage a federal Title IV aid budget exceeding \$75
million. First and foremost, let me thank you and the Secretary for your
efforts over the last two years to bring us excellent guidance in
relation to the College Cost Reduction Act, and the Ensuring Continued
Access to Student Loans Act.

I understand how much time has gone into the changes you\'ve been asked
to manage, and please know how much we appreciate your efforts. From the
new ACG, SMART, and TEACH Grants, to the recently increased Federal
Stafford Loan limits, not only have I found the guidance to be delivered
in a timely fashion, but I and my staff feel that the details have been
covered sufficiently for our needs. Today, I\'d like to give my thoughts
on a few provisions in the Higher Education Opportunity Act of 2008. I
hope that you take my comments into account when the various negotiated
rulemaking committees are established and charged. I\'d like to start
with the topic of lender lists and Sunshine laws as covered in Sections
152 and 153. Miami University applauds the effort our Congress has made
in ensuring that students are informed of any relationship or agreement
between schools and lenders. It\'s critical for us to regain the lost
confidence that we\'ve seen nationwide from students. It\'s imperative
that the process of negotiated rulemaking not water down the language as
currently written. Students need to know that schools are fully
disclosing all aspects of the process by which we choose the lenders
that we recommend to students and their families. The law as written
provides that assurance, and I hope it is fully implemented as intended
by our elected officials.

On that same note, however, I believe there could be an unintended
consequence of some language in Section 154. Miami, a Direct Loan
school, would fall under the provisions of this Section. As currently
worded, it could possibly be concluded that individual Direct Loan
schools will be required to provide the loan disclosure to students that
is currently allowed to be provided by lenders in the FFEL Program.
Please don\'t misunderstand me: I think being upfront and disclosing
full loan terms to students is critical, both in direct lending and in
FFEL; however, the administrative burden of providing that disclosure
should remain with either the lender or the guarantor which, for direct
lending schools, is the Department of Education.

Second, I\'d like to focus for a minute on the issue of private or
non-federal loans. I have to admit that I was disappointed with the
provisions in the Reauthorization Act addressing private loans.
Specifically, I was hoping to see legislation that eliminated
direct-to-consumer loans by requiring all education loans to be approved
by a school\'s financial aid office. I also encourage you to consider
making the same disclosure requirements of private loans that currently
exist for Stafford and PLUS. Hopefully, there\'s enough flexibility in
the regulations as passed to allow these important changes to the
ever-increasing and financially dangerous private loan market.

Third, I ask the Department take full advantage of the wording in
Section 473 that allows the Secretary of Education to work closely with
the IRS to create a simplified student aid application process. It seems
to me that such an arrangement is a win-win-win for families, schools,
and the Department. Families get to file a greatly simplified FAFSA
form, schools virtually eliminate the verification process, and
subsequent financial award changes, and the Department will find that it
will not need to process nearly as many FAFSA change records.

And finally, as you go forward with the selection of negotiators for
negotiated rulemaking hearings, I urge you to choose at least one
negotiator whose primary role is to represent direct lending schools. As
a direct lending institution looking at the makeup of past negotiated
rulemaking groups, I\'ve seen individuals from lenders, guarantors, and
even from associations created by the lending community. As I\'ve said
earlier, with the Department of Education as our lender, and with its
committed position of non-favoritism for the discussions between direct
lending and FFEL, it is not possible for our lender to represent the
needs of the direct lending program. I ask that a member of the National
Direct Student Loan Coalition be asked to serve in this capacity for any
negotiated rulemaking group that will tackle loan issues.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. I find it
reassuring that we are being asked to provide input for this
all-important phase of reauthorization.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you very much.

**MS. McLARNON:** Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Well, we have come to the end of our list for the
morning, but we do have some people who have signed up for the period
immediately after lunch, and I\'ll see if they\'re in the room now and
would like to speak. So, I\'ll see if Jackie Fairbairn is here. Yes, she
is. And if she would like to speak, she may come forward. And again,
just as a reminder, would you again state your name and the organization
you\'re with for our transcriber.

**MS. FAIRBAIRN:** Good morning. My name is Jackie Fairbairn. I\'m the
Director of Policy and Regulatory Compliance for Great Lakes Higher
Education Guarantee Corporation.

Great Lakes is a private, nonprofit corporation that administers the
Federal Family Education Loan Programs, otherwise known as FFEL. As a
leading guarantor of student loans for over 40 years, Great Lakes is a
nonprofit guarantee agency serving over 2 million student loan
borrowers, 2,700 schools and 1,400 lenders across the Nation. We work
with these students, borrowers, schools, lenders, and community
organizations to change lives for the better through higher education.
Our mission is to make the dream of education a reality by providing
financial education and operational support at every stage of the
educational journey.

To begin, Great Lakes endorses the testimony given by Shelly Saunders on
October 8th, representing the National Association of Student Loan
Administrators, otherwise known as NASLA. Great Lakes strongly believes
that negotiators should be seated who are closest to the operating level
that will be most directly impacted by the regulatory framework.
NASLA\'s membership is comprised of the four of the largest guarantee
agencies in the country, and all of the original VFA guarantors, and is
the singular organization representing unbundled standalone guarantors.

As a private, nonprofit, voluntary membership organization, NASLA has
been an effective voice for student loan guarantors whose mission is to
ensure consistent and reliable student loan services to America\'s
students, parents, and postsecondary education institutions. As such,
Great Lakes supports the call for NASLA to be represented in the
negotiated rulemaking activity. In addition, Great Lakes believes that
the implementation of the Higher Education Opportunity Act through the
negotiated rulemaking process presents an excellent opportunity to
revise federal regulations toward enhancing borrower benefits,
simplifying student loan borrowing, and promoting successful loan
repayment.

In that regard, Great Lakes endorses and supports the issues identified
by NASLA, and encourages the Department to focus on improvements to the
regulations that increase borrower access to critical default prevention
services, loan forgiveness and discharge entitlements, and that
strengthen but do not unduly burden our collective oversight
responsibilities.

In addition to our support of the issues raised by NASLA, Great Lakes
also supports the following additional list of issues for negotiation,
and I\'m only going to mention a few of them; the rest of them were in
the NASLA testimony. The first is the Income Based Repayment Program.
Despite the success of last year\'s negotiated rulemaking, the
discussion with respect to Income Based Repayment Program, otherwise
called IBR, was quite complex and there was limited time to fully
consider whether the draft regulations might contain any unintended
consequences. One such consequence has come to our attention related to
IBR eligibility, and we are concerned that others may surface as the
community works to implement the new IBR repayment plan. The specific
consequence deals with the proposed regulations in 682.215(a)4 that
outline the eligibility criteria for a partial financial hardship, which
is the nexus of the IBR Program.

According to the regulatory language, the loan holder must use the
borrower\'s payment amount as calculated on a ten-year repayment plan to
determine eligibility. We believe that the negotiators agreed with the
requiring lenders to use the ten-year repayment plan that is calculated
at the time the borrower initially enters repayment under the belief
that using these initial payment amounts would avoid disparate treatment
of borrowers. However, as we work to implement the IBR plan, we now
believe this decision may negatively impact many borrowers for whom IBR
would be provided\--the relief intended. In some cases, a determination
of eligibility for IBR will be based on old data that is no longer
relative and no longer demonstrative of a borrower\'s ability to pay. As
such, we contend that lenders should be required to use the greater of
the ten-year monthly payment amount established at the time the borrower
initially enters repayment or the monthly payment amount in effect at
the time the borrower requests IBR.

We have examples that I have provided in writing to you at the end of my
testimony that will help illustrate this point, and the cohort of
borrowers who would be ineligible for the full benefit of IBR unless IBR
regulations are again examined and the unintended consequences of the
existing regulations are appropriately revised. The next issue is
economic hardship deferment eligibility and the treatment of non­taxable
income. Great Lakes believes the economic hardship deferment regulations
regarding the option for a borrower to provide his monthly income to
demonstrate eligibility for this deferment requires clarification.
Section 682.210(s)6vii of the regulations define monthly income as
either the gross income amount of income received by the borrower from
employment and other sources, or one-twelfth of the borrower\'s adjusted
gross income as recorded on the borrower\'s most recently filed federal
tax return. If the borrower submits information from his or her tax
return, the figure utilized in the calculation to determine hardship
eligibility reflects the IRS instructions for determining AGI, a figure
that does not include non-taxable income.

The instructions define this non-taxable income as child support, life
insurance proceeds, gifts, and bequests. However, it is not clear if
these non­taxable sources are to be excluded when a borrower is providing
the lender with the gross amount of monthly income received from
employment and other sources. Some in the loan community define other
sources to include child support, and as a result, this source is used
when determining the eligibility for economic hardship deferment. We
would like the Department to consider revising the regulations that
clarify the monthly income used for determining economic hardship
deferment eligibility be treated the same as one one-twelfth of the AGI,
limiting it to income that is taxable and not including non-taxable
income such as child support, insurance proceeds, gifts, and bequests.
We believe excluding non-taxable income, regardless of whether the
borrower is providing monthly income statements or tax filing
documentation is consistent with the intent of the regulations, and
therefore requires clarification.

The third issue is total and permanent disability and its eligibility
criteria. As mentioned, Great Lakes supports the comments made by NASLA
with respect to the implementation of the new statutory standard for
meeting the eligibility requirements for total and permanent disability
discharge. We also concur with NASLA\'s belief that the Higher Education
Opportunity Act provides an opportunity to revise regulations to reflect
a more reasonable discharge standard for all borrowers, as well as
address several subjective and onerous processing standards that have
created undue hardships for our most vulnerable borrowers. In addition
to identifying and tracking the subjectivity and subsequent negative
repercussions of the current process on otherwise eligible borrowers,
Great Lakes has been working with student advocacy groups to develop
alternative methods that we feel would simultaneously result in a higher
quality of service and improved oversight to protect against fraud.

We encourage the Department to consider us a valued resource and partner
in the disability discharge process, and we would appreciate the
opportunity, through the negotiated rulemaking process, to share these
alternative methodologies in detail.

The fourth issue, and final, is direct-to­consumer private loans and
student protections. Great Lakes endorses the comments made by the
Institute for College Access and Success with respect to private
direct-to-consumer student loans. We also believe that the Department
should do as much as possible to assure the highest level of counseling
and disclosure is provided to help students and their families
distinguish between private loans from federal student loans. We further
encourage the Department to maximize all opportunities to tie these DTC
loans into the school certification process, and we agree that increased
oversight is needed to protect against fraud and abuse. All of these
efforts are necessary to ensure the lowest level of non-federal
borrowing. We also believe that guarantors in their role as
borrower-advocates should support these counseling and disclosure
requirements, and we encourage regulatory guidance toward that end.

Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you. Margaret Richards.

**MS. RICHARDS:** Good morning. My name is Margaret Richards, and I\'m a
Client Services Representative in the Midwest Region at EDFUND.

EDFUND is a not-for-profit public benefit corporation and one of the
Nation\'s leading providers of student loan guarantee services under the
Federal Family Education Loan Program. EDFUND offers students a wide
range of financial aid and debt management information while supporting
schools with advanced loan-processing solutions and default prevention
techniques.

EDFUND was founded in 1997, and in 2006­07, processed more than \$9.3
billion in student loans, and we manage a portfolio of outstanding loans
valued at more than \$30 billion. EDFUND is based in California, and we
operate with regional representatives such as myself located throughout
the Nation. I am pleased to be with you here today to discuss just a few
issues that are of particular importance to EDFUND and the schools,
families, and students we serve. I will keep my comments brief here
today, but will let you know that we will be submitting additional
written testimony covering these topics and a few additional issues.

Before I address the specific issues on behalf of EDFUND, I would like
to take this opportunity to applaud the U.S. Congress for reauthorizing
the Higher Education Act through the passage of the Higher Education
Opportunity Act. I would also like to applaud the Department for moving
so quickly with the negotiated rulemaking process.

We at EDFUND believe the law contains many new provisions that will
continue to open the doors of opportunity for millions of American
families, and we look forward to working with you in conjunction with
our trade associations to implement the new law in the best interest of
the students and families we serve at the forefront.

The first topic I\'d like to discuss relates to entrance and exit
counseling activities performed by lenders and guarantee agencies in
conjunction with school personnel. Language included in Section 493(e)
of the HEOA explicitly states that entrance and exit counseling
activities are not considered a gift under the gift ban section. The law
also explicitly allows lenders and guarantors to perform exit counseling
service in Sections 422(d) and 436(c) under the supervision of school
personnel. Conversations with congressional staff have indicated that
they believe the language adopted in the HEOA permits lenders and
guarantors to provide both entrance and exit counseling. Based on the
legislative citations provided and the express congressional intent, we
request that the Department modify its regulatory position on guarantors
and lenders performing both entrance counseling and exit counseling on
behalf of any institution that requests it. EDFUND believes that
allowing lenders and guarantors to assist both Direct Loan and FFEL
schools with entrance and exit counseling activities is good for
schools, good for the loan programs, and most importantly, good for
students.

As financial aid offices are increasingly stretched for resources,
lenders and guarantors are best equipped to provide the most
comprehensive and accurate information to student borrowers on the
specifics of their loan obligations, and what options and programs
federal, state, and institutional, exist to ensure a successful
repayment experience. Additionally, some of the new repayment options
and program benefits available to borrowers will require more than
sound-bite-type counseling for borrowers to fully understand the options
available to them. The new Income Based Repayment option, for example,
may require significant explanations from knowledgeable staff in order
for borrowers to understand how to fully take advantage of the new
program, a goal I believe we all agree is important. We suggest the
Department align its regulations with the HEOA and with the
congressional intent with regard to entrance and exit counseling
performed for any FFEL or direct lending institution that may require
assistance.

The second topic I\'d like to address relates to a new provision in the
law that requires schools with cohort default rates of 30 percent or
more to assemble a default prevention taskforce that will create a
default prevention plan to be submitted to the Secretary. EDFUND, along
with our guarantor colleagues, believes we can play a valuable role in
this process, working directly with schools to develop strategies to
lower their cohort default rates. Guarantors have consistently
demonstrated that we play an important role in assisting students to
successfully manage their student loan debt. The growing importance of
this role has been emphasized by increased requirements for guarantee
agencies to provide financial literacy information and other resources
to both schools and students, showing our agencies to be knowledgeable
and effective, trusted agents.

A school with a higher-than-desired default rate likely does not have
the resources and experience needed to effectively assist its particular
constituencies avoid delinquency and default. By including the guarantee
agency in the taskforce designed to help the school develop and
implement its default prevention plan, schools are able to take
advantage of existing resources and expertise as well as ensuring that
these default prevention plans become effective tools as intended.
Guarantors can help them find the best tools and implement solutions
based on what we know and learn in the field from others.

Additionally, we can act as a third party to help facilitate the
discussion and we are seen as the trusted advisor so we can guide the
direction and help schools focus their goals. The financial aid office
should not be the only department on campus held accountable for
defaults. Until the entire campus community understands its role,
students will continue to fall through the cracks, and some will default
on their student loans.

The financial aid office will need support from an outside, neutral
party to get the discussion going and gain support of other campus
officials. A guarantor can help in this process. Guarantors could also
work with the Department globally to help develop some default
management plan best practices that can be provided to both FFEL and
direct lending schools nationwide. The two topics I have addressed here
today represent two opportunities for the Department to strengthen the
student loan programs by utilizing the demonstrated experience of the
guarantor community to better serve postsecondary institutions and the
students we all serve.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. Any
questions\--or that\'s not been any questions?

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you very much.

**MS. McLARNON:** Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** We\'re going to go ahead now and break for lunch, and
we will reconvene at 1:00.

Thank you.

**\[Recess.\]**

**AFTERNOON SESSION**

**MR. MADZELAN:** Welcome back. We will continue the hearing at this
time, with Nina Turner. Nina. And again, as a reminder, please, when you
come to the podium, state your name and where you\'re from and who you
represent for our transcriber.

**MS. TURNER:** Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Nina
Turner. I am a professor here at Cuyahoga Community College, as well as
a Senator for the State of Ohio. And it certainly is an honor to have
the opportunity to discuss today the issue of financial aid, its
challenges, and opportunities.

Again, I speak today as a person serving two roles: in my capacity as an
educator at Cuyahoga Community College, as well as a State Senator
representing the concerns of over 330,000 Ohio residents. In both roles,
I hear many personal stories from students and their families who are
attempting to pay for day-to-day expenses and afford a college
education. The challenges impacting Ohio families-­college access has
received recent media attention. On August 25, 2008, USA Today published
an article entitled \"College Work to Keep Students in School Until They
Earn Degree.\" Governors of several states, including Ohio, Arizona, and
Michigan made a commitment to produce more college graduates to meet
workplace demands. One of the numerous challenges for college students
to surmount is obtaining the funding to complete a college degree.

On September 9, 2008, the Crest News reported that, based upon a July
survey by the National Association of Student Financial Aid
Administrators, more than 90 percent of financial aid administrators
were concerned about the student loan crunch. On September 14, 2008,
MSNBC reported on a story entitled \"Ohio Housing Market Troubles Spill
into Financial Aid Offices.\" Many Ohio families, as well as families
nationally, are finding it difficult to leverage private student loans.
While these loans should be a last resort, some students and their
families need these funds to bridge the gap to pay for college expenses.
This difficulty, as all of us understand, is rooted in the international
credit crisis. Even before this epidemic became apparent to the rest of
the Nation, the Greater Cleveland area was in the eye of the foreclosure
tsunami. The negative impact of this situation has ravaged our
neighborhoods and now threatens to sabotage our future growth. We can,
however, change this trajectory with investment in our human capital.

At the Euclid Chamber of Commerce Business Development Luncheon last
week, Ohio Board of Regents Chancellor Eric Fingerhut talked about the
goals of the university system of Ohio. I believe these goals are at the
pinnacle of our future progress as a state. They are, number one,
graduate more students from our colleges and universities.

Number two, keep our graduates in Ohio.

And Number three, attract more talent to our region. It is critically
imperative that we work vigilantly to provide an environment that
cultivates young minds. This cultivation is the catalyst for a strong
Ohio, a stronger America, and stronger world. Moving forward, an
unshakeable commitment at the state level to work towards the goal of
keeping educational costs affordable while maintaining a quality
educational experience and producing more college graduates is
priceless.

Cuyahoga Community College is a committed partner in this regard. Just
as important, however, is continued federal support for college students
to assist states in meeting their goals. As a first-generation college
graduate from a poor family, a family of a single mother and seven
children, I understand how important it is to have access to grants, to
scholarships, and to loans. With the proper guidance, investment, and
direction, people from all walks of life can overcome seemingly
insurmountable odds. And I want to share with the members that I myself
should have been a statistic. My mom had seven children. She was not a
college graduate, and studies show that I should have had a house full
of children and no college education. But it is because of places like
Cuyahoga Community College that first-generation students like myself
had an opportunity to surmount those obstacles, and surmount them I did.
And it is because of relationships with professors and teachers and
administrators who really care\--surmount those obstacles, I was able
to. So, the mission is clear: Government must increase its efforts
through the vehicle of economics and public policy to provide access for
young people to obtain a college education. And although times seem
bleak right now, I do believe that there is promise in the problem. I,
in my capacity as an educator, as a legislator, and as a mother of a
college student at Youngstown State University, I remain committed to
helping others live out their greatest greatness, using education as the
prime medium to reach their goals.

I thank the members of the U.S. Department of Education for this
opportunity. I thank you for coming to Greater Cleveland area, and
particularly Cuyahoga Community College, and I am happy to answer any
questions that you may have.

Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you.

**MS. TURNER:** Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Tina Royal.

\[Pause.\]

**MR. MADZELAN:** Let\'s see. Paul Frank. Paul.

**MR. FRANK:** I apologize for not having copies of my remarks. I\'ve
been sketching them out through most of the day, but I will be sending
in a copy to the Department.

My name is Paul Frank. I\'m the Director of Government Relations for the
Federation of Independent Illinois Colleges and Universities. Our
association represents 58 nonprofit private institutions that enroll
more than 204,000 students in Illinois. Our institutions include very
large research institutions with international reputations that you\'ve
heard of, the largest private college in the Midwest, and many small
liberal arts institutions, also. The private colleges in Illinois,
together, are now larger than the public university system in Illinois.
We enroll more students, produce more graduates annually. We\'ve become
an important foundation and an important choice for students in Illinois
and throughout the Midwest, and nationally and internationally, of
course.

In Illinois, we\'re in the midst of a public agenda planning process,
creating a new future map for higher education in our state. We\'re
looking at all the issues that the Congress has been looking at in
recent years that culminated with the passage of this opportunity act,
but our state finances are in peril, that\'s creating a growing
affordability gap, and we like to refer to it as an affordability lag.
There is a significant disparity\--a significant increase in how much
college affordability has decreased in the past ten years. It used to be
our state grant program would help needy students afford 100 percent of
public university tuition, and as much as 30 percent of tuition at some
of the private institutions. That grant program now affords about 60
percent at the public universities due to the increases in tuition and
lack of ability to increase those grants. And at the private
institutions, it\'s down to about 20 percent. Luckily, our institutions
contribute a significant amount of institutional resources to grant aid.
And despite the increase in the use of loans, our students\--our
graduates generally graduate with only about \$3,000 more in debt than
public university graduates do. So, we\'re quite proud of the work that
our institutions do to help needy students from all backgrounds attend.

The rest of my comments would be directly towards, hopefully, the future
of what the Department is going to do with this legislation and the
rulemaking. Our institutions have asked us to remind you that sometimes
when it comes to reporting requirements and definitions and data
collection that less is more. We believe that this bill is definitely
going to add to operating costs of colleges and universities. It\'s
going to be especially burdensome on some smaller institutions that
don\'t have the staff with excess workload capacity. The burden of new
reporting requirements in this bill is very large. Of course this is the
law now, but please bear in mind that the bill did also make some steps
to ease this burden, and that includes the usage of existing IPEDS
definitions when possible, converting some of the provisions that
started off as mandates into institutional reporting requirements, and
using new tools like posting on campus websites instead of necessarily
submitting reports to the Department.

We urge the Department and all of those involved in negotiation of the
rules to keep in mind simplicity is a good rule of thumb, and to use
existing definitions continuing\--going forward, when possible. It\'s
going to help ease implementation on the campuses where staff resources
are limited sometimes.

We also urge you to please select legitimate representatives of the
interested parties and associations. Certainly, we have a particular
type of institution that we represent as well as the national
associations that we belong to. We have heard from our institutions, our
presidents, that in recent years negotiators with very narrow
perspectives have been selected to represent broader sections of the
higher education community. This can sometimes be a disservice not only
to the community, but to the representatives themselves who are put in
untenable positions and end up being torn between organizations that
they may be employed by or that they represent and the broader sectors
of higher education.

We urge you to select negotiators who will accurately and directly
represent the various sectors of our higher education system. And
lastly, regarding the illegal downloading of files, we were disappointed
that the Higher Education Opportunity Act singled out higher education
institutions with regard to this activity, the illegal downloading of
files. Most of this activity does not occur on college campuses. That
said, the rules of this section will have an impact on the operation of
our information networks in terms of staff, time, cost, and network
stability. It\'s important that the Department get the implementation of
this section right. Please avoid a one-size-fits-all approach.
Institutions require a great deal of flexibility in how they deploy
technology, and how the deploy efforts to combat infringement, and how
they offer alternatives.

That concludes my remarks. We thank you for your time, and I\'ve enjoyed
my visit here in Cleveland.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you. Tina Royal. Thomas Klecan. Rob Bird. Those
are the people that we have signed up for this afternoon who have not
yet spoken. At this point, we\'ll just recess until one or more of these
persons arrive and provides testimony. So, as I said, we\'ll recess for
the moment and we will reconvene when our next speaker arrives.

Thank you.

**\[Brief recess.\]**

**MR. MADZELAN:** Let us reconvene and ask Tina Royal to come and speak.

**MS. ROYAL:** Hi. Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you.

**MS. ROYAL:** Good afternoon. My name is Christina Royal, and I am the
Executive Director of Distance Learning at Cuyahoga Community College.
We have a very robust distance learning program at my institution. Our
accreditation is through the Higher Learning Commission, and it was
recently expanded to include some fully online degree programs.

The reauthorization of the Higher Learning Act includes language that
accreditors\' verify that colleges take some steps to establish that the
student who registers for a distance education course or program is the
same student who participates, completes, and receives academic credit
for that course or program. I believe it\'s important that we do not
create a double standard in higher education by specifically addressing
this issue for only distance learning. Many institutions, including
Cuyahoga Community College have the exact same learning outcomes
applying to courses whether they are taught in the classroom or via
distance learning. And while the pedagogical approaches to teaching and
assessment in a classroom-based and a distance course may differ, the
expectation for meeting the learning outcomes is the same regardless of
the delivery mode.

I would encourage you to consider looking at policies and practices in
place for the traditional classroom before considering a separate
standard for authenticating students in distance learning courses or
programs. I would also ask that you consider pedagogical approaches in
addition to technological solutions when considering issues of
authentication of students in all types of courses, including distance
learning. Knowledge of best practices to ensure high quality and
integrity of a distance course or program, research on student success
in distance and online learning, and technological advances of the
systems through which distance and online courses are offered have
evolved substantially in the 21st century.

Distance learning and specifically online learning has earned the
respect as an equal to its classroom counterpart, and the policies and
practices established at the federal level should reflect this. I would
also encourage you to consider this approach when looking at not only
academic issues such as authentication of students in classroom and
distance courses and programs, but also when reviewing Student Support
Services, including financial aid.

Thank you for your time.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you.

**MS. McLARNON:** Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thomas Klecan. Please help me with your surname.

**MR. KLECAN:** Klecan, it\'s fine. Good afternoon. My name is Thomas
Klecan. I have been a firefighter with the city of North Olmsted for
over 29 years, and the Fire Chief of the Department for the last six.

I am here today speaking on behalf of the Ohio Fire Safety Coalition,
and as an ex-Board Member of the Northeastern Ohio Fire Prevention
Association, and as past President of the Northeast Ohio Fire Chiefs
Association. I\'ve been concerned with public fire safety for over 20
years, and I will be speaking specifically about the language pertaining
to Campus Fire Safety Right to Know. The language for Campus Fire Safety
Right to Know was first proposed as legislation in the year 2000
following a fire at Seton Hall University, which killed three students,
and injured over 50 others. The legislation, when finally passed in 2000
received bipartisan support. This new law requires schools to report
fire safety information annually to the Secretary of Education. This
information is to be included, but not limited to, the number of fires,
number of fire injuries and fatalities relating to fires, damaged caused
by fires, number of beds protected by sprinklers and fire alarms, and
the amount of fire safety training provided to the students.

In addition, the Secretary of Education is to compile a list of best
practices. All of this information is to be made publicly available. The
primary focus currently is on on-campus residence halls, and does
include off-campus housing or housing not owned by the schools.

The information is intended to assist prospective parents and students
to evaluate the level of fire safety at a school and to have this
information included in the decision-making process when selecting a
school. Public disclosure of this information will allow for a more
level playing field by requiring uniform reporting, and additional will
encourage schools to improve, if necessary, the safety components they
currently have in place thereby improving fire safety for students,
faculty, and visitors. Most, if not all, schools already have this
information on hand; however, in the past, reporting of it was voluntary
only and there were no uniform means of reporting. This allowed schools
with poor fire safety practices to ignore or gloss over their poor
practices.

Today, many schools have already started compiling and posting this
information. Other schools have taken even stricter measures to ensure
student safety. Unfortunately, many of those have done so following a
catastrophic event which cost several lives. After almost 30 years in
the fire service, I have learned that most fires are preventable, and
with the technology available today, the fires that do occur are
increasingly more containable. Many people, especially our young people
today, are quite naïve to the real destructive power of fire. As a
society, we have almost totally contained that destructive nature;
however, movies and television take quite dramatic license in portraying
impossible situations for the purpose of entertainment, yet yearly we
are tragically, and often fatally, reminded of fire\'s destructive
nature. I am here to remind you of Congress\' intent when crafting your
rules as they pertain to campus fire safety. I wish I could stand here
and report that there was no need for this legislation, but there is.

I do, however, have a great deal of hope that, with the proper rules and
regulations in effect, we will some day in the very near future ensure
that the safety of every student at school is as good or better than his
safety at home.

Thank you for your time. Do you have any questions?

**MR. MADZELAN:** Yeah, I was wondering if I could ask you to comment on
something, and after you comment, I\'ll tell you why I asked\--

**MR. KLECAN:** Okay.

**MR. MADZELAN:** \--if that\'s okay. I\'m wondering, in your
experience, what-­I\'m interested in learning about relationships between
colleges and universities and local fire departments. And you probably
know that, for a number of years now, here in the Education Department,
we\'ve been collecting from institutions the Clery Act crime statistics.
And that\'s been pretty successful and a part of that is due to the fact
that many campuses have police departments. I\'m guessing there aren\'t
too many campuses that have fire departments. I\'m sure there\'s one or
two out there somewhere, but\--so, again, I\'m wondering if you could
talk a little bit about your experience there.

**MR. KLECAN:** Sure. Most schools rely on the municipality in their
location to provide them with fire protection, and it is a big issue.
The State of Ohio has mandated in new construction of dormitories to be
sprinklered, which is a great thing. Unfortunately, we have a lot of
older schools and a lot of off-campus housing.

The relationship between the fire departments and the schools runs the
gamut from very, very good to sometimes quite poor. Sometimes it\'s the
fault of the fire department, sometimes it's the fault of the school,
and somewhere in the middle. I think both the schools and the fire
departments want to ensure the safety of the students and the faculty
and the visitors as best they can, and I think this is a good step in
providing that.

**MR. MADZELAN:** And the reason for asking that is, again, going back
to collecting our crime statistics. I mean\--because many campuses do
have police departments. That kind of\--that reporting to the
Department, which schools were never required to do before, and we
implemented it via electronic means, a Web-based data collection tool.
That\'s\--and again, we\'re just thinking not so much rules but process,
if that eight or ten years ago, when we first started doing this, we
knew that cops knew about computers because they\'ve been dealing with
them for a long time. And so, I guess\--again, I ask the question more
in the context of a process issue around ensuring that the reporting by
colleges and universities on fire safety, those specific categories that
you mentioned\--that we will be able to accomplish that in a way\--

**MR. KLECAN:** Right. In our own industry, we recently went to a
\"near-miss\" reporting system, where we went with the fire service and
accidents that were missed but could have been severe, and you would be
surprised how often the statistics as they proved out\--and they are now
taking that data and looking at changing certain procedures and tactics,
because too often we\'re missing the boat and we\'re incurring too many
near misses, and eventually one of those will become a fatality that we
could have prevented.

I agree. I think the statistics, once they come out, will start to show
that maybe the problem is a little more\--a little larger than it\'s
been portrayed to be, and that\'s not unlike the general public, either.

In the State of Ohio, we are required to report any unfriendly fire
which starts as a means­-and probably 80 to 90 percent of those go
unreported every year. So, it will help to ensure student safety and
that of the faculty and staff and visitors. So, I applaud this
legislation.

Thank you.

**MS. McLARNON:** Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Rob Bird is not in the room at the moment, but he is
actually scheduled for a little bit later this afternoon.

So, again, at this time we\'ll take a recess, and when our next speaker
is ready to speak, we will reconvene.

Thank you.

**\[Brief Recess.\]**

**MR. MADZELAN:** We will now reconvene and hear from Rob Bird. And Mr.
Bird, when you come up, please state your name and who you represent for
the record here.

**MR. BIRD:** I\'d like to thank everybody for their patience. I realize
there was a bit of a timing issue.

Good afternoon. My name is Rob Bird, and I\'m the President and founder
of Red Lambda, a software security company based in Orlando, Florida.

I\'ve worked in technology in education for over 15 years. I used to be
the Network Architect at the University of Florida prior to founding Red
Lambda. And I\'ve also served as an expert witness to the U.S. Congress
regarding the mitigation of peer-to-peer file sharing, as well as
advising the technical committee for the joint committee of higher
education and the entertainment industry. I\'d like to thank the
Department of Education for giving me the opportunity to speak to the
HEA at provisions that address the use of university computer networks
for illegal file sharing.

My purpose here today is not to go over that problem one more time; I
think that\'s been discussed quite a bit, but what I am here to do is to
discuss some of the great successes that have been had by people trying
to implement technology controls.

For a little background, I founded Red Lambda in 2005 after licensing my
own technology from the University of Florida. It was something that we
had developed there to combat illegal file sharing on campus, and it was
a rampant problem just like it was everywhere else.

The software called Integrity was developed in conjunction with the
Student and Faculty Senate, campus educators, and psychologists from the
campus counseling center. Our hope was to develop a solution that would
change user behavior and promote the educational mission of the
university in the process.

Integrity was designed with three goals in mind: It had to preserve the
privacy and academic freedom of the network users while making them
accountable for their behavior. It had to be able to detect any type of
peer-to-peer behavior, whether it was encrypted or not. And it had to be
flexible enough to adapt to changing policies, applications, and network
infrastructure. Since then, Integrity has continued to evolve to meet
the diverse needs of university administrators, shaped by both our
customers and the input from the higher education community.

To highlight what is possible with technology controls, I would like to
share the exceptional results achieved by two of our customers, the
University of South Florida and the University of Florida. Although they
are only separated by about a hundred miles, and part of the same
university system, the approaches taken to the file sharing problem and
how they would solve it by those two institutions could not be more
different. In fact, it is their remarkable success in spite of this
difference that I believe makes the application of technology control so
compelling. At the University of Florida, the school chose to prohibit
the general use of P2P, using case-by-case exceptions to provide
flexibility for faculty and students. The judicial affairs staff elected
to implement a three-strikes policy, with escalating punitive
enforcement for repeat offenders to be applied automatically by
Integrity whenever P2P was detected.

When first deployed, Integrity\'s impact was staggering. Bandwidth use
was reduced by 85 percent. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act
complaints, DMCA complaints were reduced to zero, and in fact they\'ve
never received another one since 2003, and recidivism, perhaps the must
useful statistic for determining the impact on user behavior was reduced
to less than 10 percent.

In stark contrast, the University of South Florida chose not to restrict
the use of P2P in any way, which is completely opposite of what the
University of Florida did, instead opting to advise students in real
time who were using P2P that they could be exposing themselves to
unintended liability. Integrity took no punitive action against anyone.
Instead, automating the communication with the student when activity was
detected. The results were just as dramatic at USF as they were at UF.
And in fact, USF, who was ranked number three on the RIAA worst offender
list, dropped to number 233 in their first month alone. What\'s even
more interesting about the University of South Florida is the fact that
they chose to only protect their dormitory network. So, over 90 percent
of the campus was left unprotected, and yet they were able to have such
a tremendous impact on the greater use of file sharing on the campus,
simply by advising people that they could be exposing themselves to
liability. While each school chose to solve the problem in different
ways, their solution really shared three vital components:
accountability via identity, consistency, and immediacy. What is clear
from these examples is that it is possible to use existing technology to
preserve academic freedom, privacy, and collaboration while drastically
reducing or eliminating the abuse of file sharing.

What is also interesting to note is that both schools had previously
updated their policies, created educational materials, and special
programs all in the hopes of educating students and changing behavior,
all to no avail. To quote one university student that we spoke to when I
was initially employed at the University of Florida, he said, \"Well, we
knew that no one was actually looking, so why care.\" As we explore
solutions to the challenges faced by universities, it is vital that we
not vilify P2P as a technology in the process. We must be cognizant of
the fact that P2P is merely an enabling technology, one which will have
broad implications for the future of computing.

Ironically, Integrity, our software, is itself a P2P application, albeit
one used for security. Instead, we must focus on better ways to provide
universities with the transparency and accountability required to
effectively administer policy. That\'s what it really comes down to.
Policies are written for people; they\'re not written for IP Addresses,
and that\'s fundamentally the challenge that administrators face.

We look forward to continuing to work with the higher education
community, and to continue to provide affordable and effective solutions
to file sharing.

Thank you.

**MR. MADZELAN:** Thank you very much. Well, we, at the moment, have no
other speakers signed up for this afternoon.

We will take a recess until 3:00, maybe a little bit\--it would be a
little bit sooner if another speaker comes up, and then, at 3:00, we\'ll
assess where we are.

**\[Brief recess.\]**

**MR. MADZELAN:** At this time, we have no more speaker signed up to
speak, so we will adjourn this hearing. But before I do so, again, I
want to thank all of the persons who came out today and shared their
ideas and their thoughts around how we should go about\--we, the
Education Department-­should go about regulating the reauthorization of
the Higher Education Act.

And again, once more, I just want to extend our thanks on behalf of the
Department, to Claire Rosacco and her team here at the Cuyahoga
Community College for providing us with this wonderful venue to hold our
hearing. So, with that, I will ask my colleague Gail if she has anything
to add.

**MS. McLARNON:** No, I would simply echo Dan\'s comments. Again, a big
thank you to Claire and her staff, and our Webmaster, and our
transcribers, and our signer, and all of the folks that made this a very
successful hearing. Thank you very much. And we will certainly take all
the comments that we heard into consideration as we move forward and
hopefully organize some negotiating teams and write\--what would be our
next step\--another Federal Register Notice letting the public know what
our plans are.

Again, thank you very much to everyone.

**MR. MADZELAN:** And with that, we are adjourned.

**\[Whereupon, at 3:02 p.m., the public hearing was adjourned.\]**