Q: Thank you for your patience.

**Mayor James Perkins:** That's okay.

Q: Mayor, I've been asking a lot of questions, what would you like to be
saying to youngsters or the general public in this day and age as we
move through the threshold of the future.

**Mayor James Perkins**: That's a challenge \<cough\> in the challenge
because uhm.. we really need to stop and think a moment. I think as a-
as a society we need to stop and think. There's a lot of dialog and
people are having individual thought processes but there's not a col- a
lot of collective thought going on in many of the decisions I'm seeing
in society and I think- I think there's this huge disconnect that we're
seeing uh.. between the federal government and the needs of the people.
Between this country and the needs of the rest of the world. There seems
to be a disconnect.. between our children and the adults. There needs to
be more collective dialog and collective thought going on. Uh.. and so
if there was uhm.. a- a single of uh.. suggestion that I would make, it
would be uh.. to, "Let's talk. L-let's just stop and start having some
collective dialog. Uh.. communications is beautiful when you get it
right. But it's- it creates chaos when you get it wrong. The realities
are, the things that I've said to you, when others hear them, they will
hear- there will be as many interpretations of what I am saying as there
are people who are hearing it. Uh.. and unless we stop ourselves in this
dialog and start asking the question, "What did you hear me say? What is
it that you heard." Uh.. b- th-then we'll continue to go in this circle.
Ha-have you ever been in a conversation when uhm.. you make a statement
and then the person's response is totally uhm.. unexpected? A-and you
wonder, "Well- well where did that come from? Why did you say that?"
It's because.. the- what the person heard, the words that you used meant
something different to the person you're talking to. I mean that's sort
of like the difference between a sofa and a couch and a loveseat. Well
it depends on who you're talking to, so what you're really referring to,
uh.. and we need to star- we need to start that process, I think, in
this country. And we need to be serious about it because there's some
serious disconnects going on.

Q: I know that Selma is taking on a reconciliation process.

**Mayor James Perkins:** Yes.

Q: Could you describe a little about it in almost practical terms? I
think we would all agree that we need it but how do you do it?

**Mayor James Perkins:** Well the- the first thing uhm.. that we needed
to do was we needed to understand uh.. some basic fundamental
definitions. Things like, "Well, what is truth?" I mean y- I mean,
that's not something we've ever had any dialog about in this country.
"What does truth really mean?" Uh.. well, uh.. the- the definition that
we have accepted is whatever agrees with final reality is true. But
then-then you have to ask the question, "Well what is final reality?"
Well, final reality happens every second. Uh.. in the previous final
reality I put my fingertips together. Uh.. in the- in a prior final
reality I have this discussion with you. Every second produces a
separate final reality and whatever agrees with what that final reality
is, is the truth being told about that final reality. So, once you
understand w-what that truth is, at that point then you can start
talking about some kind of reconciliation process. Because you can't
reconcile without truth. You have to first admit uh.. whatever is true.
I- there was a discussion that we had in the council chamber about-
about the movement. And the question was uh.., "Who was on the bridge
uh.. March twenty-first, I believe, in 1965 and if you were there, stand
up." And several people stood up, white and black. And the
African-Americans looking around the room were saying, "You weren't
there!" And they said, "Yes.. I was. I was just on the other side of the
issue." Well, so the truth in that room, you know, was inconsistent
because of the vantage point they were looking. Uh.. bloody Sunday, I
was at home. I had participated in many marches. My mother wouldn't let
me come to that march because she had heard that there was going to be
trouble. And so there were no- I cried. I-I cried like what I was. I
cried like a baby because I couldn't be there. But my mother was called
she was- because she was e-emergency room nurse and she was called in to
help uh.. attend to the injured. And so uh.. being on maternity leave
uh.. she- my father took her in. When they left, I ran out of the back
door of our homes and ran over to GWC and Brown Chapel and I was there
as many of the marchers were coming back in.. with tear gas in their
eyes and- and uh.. weeping and just moaning from the- the trauma of that
experience. And I saw uh.. deputies riding on their horseback with the-
with the billyclubs swinging at people. And though I wasn't injured, but
I was there and I saw. And did it impact me? Yes, it did. Uh.. now we
need to start dealing with that but how do we deal with- how do you deal
with reconciliation in a community where the ancestors of Confederate
soldiers still live and their great-grandfather's buried in Live Oak
Cemetery uh.. who fought in the Confederate War. How do you deal with
reconciliation when you had all of these different factions uh.. moving
through the voting rights and the Civil Rights Movement. Uh.. and many
of those people still live here. We say in Selma, "History still lives
in Selma. S- now we want to reconcile uh.. you know, we have uh..
embraced a new medallion for the city and it says, what it reads it
says, 'From Civil War to Civil Rights and Beyond.'" It looks to our
past. It looks at the threat in our past and then it comes forward and
it talks also about our future. And on that medallion there's a picture
of Sturdyvant \[ph?\] Hall, an old antebellum structure of the 1800's,
constructed in the 1800's. And then there's a picture of the Edmund
\[ph?\] Pettis \[ph?\] bridge and then above in the top corner there's a
little butterfly. And that butterfly represents our future. It is the-
it is- it is symbolic of the metamorphic change that our community's
experiencing. And i-if you think about a caterpillar crawling and
becoming this beautiful butterfly, that's- that's the Selma that's in
our future. That's where we're going and that's why reconciliation's so
important. What community would be better poised to show the rest of the
world how to reconcile, to live one with another in harmony, but Selma?
We paid our dues and it's our turn now to really show the rest of the
world why we have had to endure. So many ground zero struggles for
people of color and I believe that it was because we were being prepared
for this process that we are looking at now, this reconciliation
process. And again, we're gonna do that one person.. at a time.

Q: What do you think your feelings are going to be next Sunday when they
all cross the bridge with you.

**Mayor James Perkins:** You know, uhm.. I think we need to tell the
story. I think every time, every opportunity we get to reenact it we
need to tell it. I think our kids are really benefiting from hearing the
stories. And- and again, it really is about making sure, making certain
that they remember, that our children remember uh.. from whence we have
come. If there ever was a people who had- who could justify resentment,
feelings of resentment, feelings of hostility and bitterness, it would
be African-American people in this country. Yet, as a young
African-American who've lived through all these- all of these- these
seasons in our lives, I choose to embrace reconciliation over revenge.
Now, why is that important for Selma at this time? Selma is not just any
community. I am mayor of a city that has a majority minority community.
I've always told people that the only person who can stop a fight is the
one that's on top. If you on top, you- t-that's the only one who can
stop the fight, so now here we are. The African-American community. On
top. We lead our community uh.. as in- politically uh.. strong economic
activity. Uh.. strong spiritual base. We are the leaders in the
community. What do we do with that? Do we change positions from being an
oppressed only to become an oppressor? Does that make us any better than
the people who oppressed us? We must embrace reconciliation. It is nes-
it is- it is a necessity and when we do, when we accept that
responsibility as our own, individually, then we will be able to show
the rest of the world what needs to happen in this situation. And so
when we walk across that bridge, I will be saying, "Thank God. Because
you brought us a mighty long ways." Because see, at one point, when Dr.
Reese \[ph?\] led that march and John Lewis led that march across the
Edmund \[ph?\] Pettis \[ph?\] bridge, when they went across there the
first time what they saw was nothin' nice. Now we walk across the bridge
with the Selma City Police Department being under the management
authority of an African-American mayor, and we have state troopers who
are there to aid and assist and to provide safety to those marches. And
not people there to brutalize them and beat them back uh.. to Brown
Chapel Church. It will be a glorious day and I just look forward to
every opportunity to celebrate the life, the legacy and the liberty of
the people in our community. What we have to do is understand now that
we are liberated and that is not something that's always understood. You
ever heard the story about the- I believe that history, if my history's
correct, when the- the uhm.. uh.. at the end of World War 2, I believe,
on this island somewhere in the Pacific, they continued to fight for
several months because they didn't know the war was over. A lot of
people still are fighting.. many of the old struggles because they don't
know that they are already liberated. I believe that everything that a
person needs to be emancipated in our society today, we already have.
What we have to do is u- is-is convert it from a kinetic uh.. from a
potential resource to a kinetic resource. And apply the power we already
have. Much- in many instances we will use the- we will attempt to use
the wrong power that's in our authority to solve the wrong problem.
Oftentimes we really have to just stop and really re-assess where we are
as a community, as a society. Did I say that we don't have any problems?
No, I did not. As long as we have had multi-culturalism, we've had
problems communicating. But it doesn't just stop there. When you stop
and look at what family members are doing to family members. We have
mothers killing their own children, we have fathers uh.. raping their
own daughters, we have- we have- we have uh.. just uh.. let's- let's
just be real here. When you look at the crime statistics, white people
mistreat white people more than black people mistreat white people as it
relates to crime. Black people mistreat black folk more.. than any other
people.. when it relates to crime. What are we doing? What is going
wrong? There is something else that's going wrong. That's why I keep
saying that the issue cannot be limited to race relations, our cultural
differences and diversity. It has to get down to the individual level
because once we get it right at the individual level, then I won't
mistreat my daughter. I won't mistreat my wife. I won't mistreat you
when I see you on the street. I won't mistreat ya because you're poor. I
won't mistreat ya because you're homeless. I want to take care of you. I
want to do what's good and what's right by you. That's why I think this
thing is much bigger.. than what we talk about. And we- we r-really- we
really want to- sometimes we really wanna make it something that it
really isn't. It's not a race problem. It's a human condition that we
have that's stopping us from embracing other people. Stopping us from
doing the things that are necessary to just treat folk right. And most
of the time, sir, it's fear. It's fear. We are afraid to embrace one
another.

Q: Well Mayor, you're an inspiration to us all. I appreciate all your
time today. Let me give you one more opportunity if you'd like to
address the people that are going to see this film. I want to give you
every chance \<audio breakup\>. I want to give you every chance.
Inspiration is obviously what we all need and some kind of galvanizing
power I can see that you brought to Selma and the rest of this country.

**Mayor James Perkins:** Public service is a ministry. Uh.. and it is-
i-it- when you go into public service, it needs to be a calling. A-and
not, it-it-it- and that needs to happen before you are elected. And when
you get there you'll know your purpose, you'll know why you're there and
what you're doing and then one should never forget that you can't
breathe without God. You can't achieve without God. You can't do
anything without a God above and so we should never, ever forget to give
God the praise and the glory for the things that He's done for us, to
us, allowed to happen to us, and so I end with this simply- this simple
phrase, "To God, be the glory."

Q: Thank you mayor.

**Mayor James Perkins:** Alright, thank you.

\<tape cut\>

\<inaudible\>

\<loud beep\>

Q: Tony, if you'd introduce yourself and tell us a little about
yourself.

**Anthony Sanders:** Oh, good deal. Well, my name is Anthony Sanders.
I'm employed at Selma High School where I teach advanced placement
economics and advanced placement government. I'm a graduate of Alabama
State University and I'm also a member of Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity
incorporated where I serve as the state director uh.. for the
fraternity. I'm also involved with the March of Dimes of America where I
am chairing the 2004 Walk America program for Selma-Dallas \[ph?\]
county. And I'm also working with the Alabama Fatherhood Initiative
along with people such as Dr. Clyde Williams, Richard Arrington \[ph?\]
and Malcolm Thomas.

Q: What was the Walk you mentioned?

**Anthony Sanders:** Uh.. Walk America is..

Q: What is Walk America?

**Anthony Sanders:** Wa- I'm sorry?

Q: What is Walk America?

**Anthony Sanders:** Walk America's a program uh.. that was developed by
the March of Dimes in an effort to help raise money for premature babies
uh.. money that would be used to help pay for hospital costs and to
assist families who are going through this very tough time in regards to
childbirth.

Q: So you're very civically engaged. Is everyone as civically minded as
you?

**Anthony Sanders:** Well, I'll tell you, we just try to do the best
that we can. Uh.. we would like for more people to become involved in
their communities and to connect themselves to something larger than-
than what they are individually. I think Tavis \[ph?\] Smiley \[ph?\]
said it best when he uh.., "Service is the price that we pay for the
space that we occupy." And I try to uh.. lend myself to that quote.

Q: Excellent. I was just over at the Confederate Cemetery.

**Anthony Sanders:** Right.

Q: Give us a little of Selma's history, if you would please.

**Anthony Sanders:** Selma's a wonderful place and I have a smile on my
face because one need to be able to embrace and appreciate the uh..
difference within our history. When you look at Selma you think of a
town one our very uh.. wonderful event uh.. if I can use that term, a
search for a battle. But the battle of Selma took pla- place here in
Selma, Alabama uh.. a battle between the Confederacy and also the Union.
Uh.. Selma was a place where a lot of the ammunition was made for the
Confederacy. In a likewise manner, Selma was the birthplace for the
Voting Rights Movement. Uh.. when you look at this wonderful town you
can notice that the architecture is something that is- it lends itself
to a riverfront community so its just a wonderful place to live. A
wonderful place to learn about history and a wonderful place to
appreciate history.

Q: Martha Boyer's \[ph?\] question was always, "Why was Selma the
'chosen place', if you will, for the Voting Rights Movement?"

**Anthony Sanders:** I think when you look at the inequities in regards
to the right to vote, uh.. Selma was definitely a city that was unique
in that regards. Uh.. there was just a great disparity among the number
of registered black voters and the number of registered white voters.
When you also look at the courageous people that we have in this town,
uh.. that led the movement, just common people that do common everyday
things, people such as Dr. F. D. Reese \[ph?\], uh.. Reverend L. L.
Anderson, Marie Foster, Amelia Borington \[ph?\]. I can name uh.. a
number of other people but they- they really set the tone to why Selma
was the place to kick off and to start the Voting Rights Movement.

Q: Is the situation improving regarding some of that disparity that I
mentioned earlier? Have you made progress?

**Anthony Sanders:** I think we made a great deal of progress here in
Selma. Uh.. in 2000, we elected our first African-American mayor, Mayor
James Perkins, whom I hope to get a chance to meet this weekend. But not
only that, our city council is majority Black now. Uh.. the vast
majority of department heads in this great community happens to be
African-American. Uh.. we have a black police chief. We have a black
postal uh.. postmaster. Uh.. we have a black fire chief. So we've made
tremendous progress in this city in regards to politics and public
service. However, we're not satisfied. We do think that there is a need
to continue our progress and to hopefully bridge the economic gap
between African-Americans and whites in this community.

Q: Take us back to ..

\<crew talk\>

Q: Take us back to the Jim Crow days here in Selma. What would it have
been like in those days prior to the Civil Rights Movement?

**Anthony Sanders:** Well, the Jim Crow days here in Selma were some
very intense times. Uh.. to begin with, you and I, in most cases, would
not be having this dialog. There were a timeframe whereby people were
abused, uh.. degraded, and relegated to living life as though they were
sub-humans. Uh.. most blacks had service-related jobs whereby they
either- worked as a mechanic uh.. a plumber or just basically cleaning
someone's home. Not saying that there's anything wrong with doing that
but there were very few options for African-Americans in this town in
regards to careers and vocations. So we had a very strong uh.. Jim Crow
system that really did a lot in regards to dividing the races and it
really made this town a very sick town during that timeframe.

Q: Hatred?

**Anthony Sanders:** Great deal of hatred. Uh..

Q: Describe some examples of that in the community.

**Anthony Sanders:** Well, you can look at, for an example, the- the
murder of two white ministers that took place in this town. Uh.. would
be an example of the hatred. You can look at the fact that the hatred
led to uh.. development whereby if you even desired to vote, your house
coulda been burned, you could've been lynched, and also physical harm
coulda been displayed on your family. So, there was a great deal of
hatred that really manifested itself to be a great beast in this town.

Q: The point you made earlier I've heard quite a few times. You were
fortunate having leaders, people who stood up and were willing to
struggle. Who stands out in your mind?

**Anthony Sanders:** Well I tell you, the first name that came up in my
mind was Dr. F. D. Reese, I must admit. For several reasons. Dr. F. D.
Reese was a teacher, I'm a teacher as well and he had the courage to- to
stand up and to do the right thing even though his job was placed on the
line. Uh.. they were warned that if the teachers were to unite that they
could easily l-lose their jobs. And when Dr. F. D. Reese organized the
teachers in this community, it made everyone else follow. Uh.. teachers
at that point in time had a great deal of respect in the community. And
to see the teachers stand up, it really motivated the masses to do the
same. So the person that really stands out right now is someone that is
still alive and that's Dr. F. D. Reese.

Q: Would you take us back to the teacher's march. It's not often spoken
about.

**Anthony Sanders:** Right.

Q: But it seems like it was a central part in this movement.

**Anthony Sanders:** Well it was the first part of the movement to be
honest with you. Uh.. the teachers organized and when the teachers
organized, various funeral homes organized, hairdressers organized,
students began to organize. Uh.. many of you may be familiar with Rachel
Wess \[ph?\] and Miss Cheyenne Wille-Crisberg \[ph?\]. All of those
people were motivated by what the teachers did. So it was the
centerpiece in regards to gettin' people organized and doin' the right
thing and taking the leadership to stand for what was right in this
community.

Q: I hope that we've met a few of the future leaders in our group of
students there. What advice do you give to young people as they reach
the voting age?

**Anthony Sanders:** Well the first thing that I would tell young people
is that they need to develop a high sense of political ethicacy. It's
one thing to have the right to vote and it's another thing to understand
the importance of the vote and to understand who they need to vote for
in regards to issues that may be present to them. But I also would like
to leave them with a quote from Louis Farrakhan uh.. Louis Farrakhan
once said that, "Politics without economics is symbol without
substance." I think our young students have to understand that one
cannot separate politics and economics, that they must be paired
together in order to bring about change within a community.

Q: And how are we doing? Do you see leaders out there?

**Anthony Sanders:** I see a- a number of leaders. We ran into a number
of leaders down in Tuskegee at the seminar. Uh.. the kids that I noticed
that were in Tuskegee that came aboard with the Never Lose Sight of
Freedom seminar will be change agents within our community. I think we
have with those, future U.S. senators, uh.. future representatives,
future corporate heads and I think these will be kids that will do the
right thing in regards to uplifting the downtrodden.

Q: How do we draw out that courage that seems to be so essential and
seems to be really fertile here in Selma?

**Anthony Sanders:** I think what we have to do is try to make people
understand that they can do it. I don't know whether that makes sense or
not, but you don't have to be a well-known person nor do you have to be
a so-called great person to bring about a change. And when they look
back at history, and I think it first starts there, to have an
understanding of history, when they look back at history we must teach
it realistically and let them know that these were just common, everyday
people. And when we do so I think our young students will be more prone
to become leaders.

Q: As you know, the title of our program is Never Lose Sight of Freedom.

**Anthony Sanders:** Right.

Q: How do you think we're doing in that regard? Have people kind of
forgotten what it takes or are they mobilized?

**Anthony Sanders:** I think we have become extremely satisfied with our
present condition. And I think we must understand that freedom isn't
free. Uh.. when you look at the forefathers of this great nation, it
made mention to that, that in order to maintain freedom we must continue
to press for everyday issues and issues that are relevant in today's
sight and time. I will say this though, I really wish we could do more
Never Lose Sight of Freedom seminars around this great country. What I
saw take place this weekend was arguably the most motivating and most
inspiring event that I've participated in in my life. And I certainly
want to commend you and Wade Black and Miss Byers for all that you've
done to organize and to make sure we bring this dream to a reality.

Q: I feel awfully good about it to. The word pride comes to mind and I
think the more we spread it around, we are trying to make it available
to schools across Alabama. Tell us a little about how that fits into a
youngster's life.

**Anthony Sanders:** Well this weekend, as well as what you guys will be
doing in regards to packaging the video presentation and to teach
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ kid. It would give them a hands-on, an understanding of
the Civil Rights Movement. Too many times we relegate a kid's learning
to dry pages in a history book, but when they have an opportunity to
look at live video footage, when they have an opportunity to walk on
hallowed ground like our kids did this weekend, it is such an
inspiration and such a motivating factor in their life to make them want
to stand and do the right thing and to understand the importance of
civil disobedience.

Q: What's going to be swirling through your mind when we walk across the
bridge on Sunday before the jubilee?

**Anthony Sanders:** 1965. Just the thought that.. people were
courageous enough to stand unselfishly.. for folk that they would not
know in the future. You know, people were beaten for me, Tim, people
were beaten for my children, people were b- were beaten for my future
grandchildren. And for someone to make that type of ultimate sacrifice,
that's the one thing that will be going across my mind. But to also
think about the fact that, "Here we are, on this very historic site,
going across this very historic bridge, that we'll also be walking hand
in hand. Tim, you and I will be together and I think it speaks volumes
for the- the progress that we've made. Not only here in Selma but also
in this great country.

Q: We've been trying to suggest that those rights that were so
hard-fought for were not just for African-Americans but to stand up for
all citizens, all Americans. Do you have that sense as well?

**Anthony Sanders:** Oh definitely. I think too many times we relegate
the Civil Rights Movement merely to the- a movement for
African-Americans. What we need to realize, that this was a movement for
human rights and that it was a movement to benefit all Americans. And I
think that's exactly what took place with the progress that we've made
and with the passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 as well as other
acts on \[movements?\] that were made.

Q: You've been very patient and I've asked all the questions. I'd like
to give you the opportunity to speak to any topic or issue that you'd
like to have included in this program. As you know, it's going to go all
across Alabama and hopefully, if we do it right, all across this
country. What kind of statement would you like to have us include in
that?

**Anthony Sanders:** I think the number one statement that I would like
for you to include within this topic is that we all should be committed
to being united as one country, as one people. You know, right now
America's too much like a salad bowl uh.. we can identify the various
elements within this bowl. What I would like to see is for this great
country, after this great program is- is manifested around this great
state, is that for us to really truly become a melting pot. That we can
blend our thoughts, we can blend our philosophies and we can come
together on one accord and truly make this the great United States that
it should be.

Q: Wonderful. LaQuita, would you have a question?

**Woman:** Well you talked a little bit about the racial disparity in
Selma. Can you go a little bit more into the generational disparity
because there's that powerful statistic out there that 30% of voters
between 18 and 25 vote, so the other 70% are not voting.

**Anthony Sanders:** Right.

**Woman:** And I don't want to say the responsibility of the prior
generation, but do you think there's a responsibility of the prior
generation to commit to this generation?

**Anthony Sanders:** Definitely. And if I may just correct you, th-the
percentage is actually twenty six. That's the latest statistic. Uh.. and
its very troubling. Uh.. I am proud to say that I did register thirty
kids to vote last week and I'll be turning that in today before I go
back to school. But to get back to the point in the question that you
have at hand, it is a very pressing issue and I think older people in
the older generation must connect themselves to the youth in trying to
explain the power of the vote, the struggles that we went through to get
the right to vote and how we shouldn't diminish voting by our young
people not voting. Uh.. there are a number of issues that we'll facing
age group between age eighteen and twenty-four. The vast majority of
African-Americans that are without employment fall within that age
group. Maybe if we vote for those candidates that could see the
importance of our issues in regards to employment, education and other
factors of importance maybe the kids will be more connected to
understanding why it's important to vote and also going out and making a
conscious vote.

Q: So moving on to the next generation, I saw some pretty bright-eyed
kids there. Does that give you confidence?

**Anthony Sanders:** It gives me confidence and hope. Uh.. and its good
to see that we have so many kids with a wonderful perspective on life as
well as the fact that they should be committed to uplifting this great
country.

Q: Tony, thank you very much, we appreciate you taking the time and we
look forward to our next session.

**Anthony Sanders:** Definitely. Tim, thank you.

\<crew talk\>

\<beep beep\>

\<crew talk\>

Q: Mrs. Anderson, if you would, please introduce yourself and tell us a
little about yourself.

**Pauline Anderson:** I am \<cough\> Pauline Dinkins \[ph?\] Anderson. I
was born in Selma. My parents uh.. were William H. Dinkins \[ph?\] and
Amelia Were-Werewold \[ph?\] Dinkins \[ph?\]. He was uh.. president of
Selma University for many years and she was a music teacher.. at home.

Q: And she must have inspired you?

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes. I decided when I was maybe six years old that
I was gonna be a music teacher 'cause that's all that I knew. I thought
every- every mother was a music teacher \<laugh\>.

Q: Tell us a little about back in time when there was rampant
discrimination and a Jim Crow Law environment.

**Pauline Anderson:** Well uh.. there were two worlds. A white world and
a black world. Those worlds did not cross except uh.. sometimes for a-
reasons of employment, but otherwise we were separate. We had separate
schools, separate churches, separate facilities in every way and uh..
that was just the way of life and we didn't question it too much but
everybody went on his own way. We went to school and to church and went
to- as growing up I didn't have that much social life but all of our
activities uh.. centered around the school and the church. My-my father
was a-a- was worked- was in education and my mother was a organist of
the church so we uh.. spent most of our time in the- in those two areas.
And uhm.. I went to school.. here. At that time, Selma University had a-
h-had uhm.. elementary and high school department and I went there for
m- all the way through high school. After high school I w- my life
changed and I went to- uh.. to Oberton \[ph?\] College in O-Ohio. There-
oy.. there was no segregation there. Everything was integrated.
E-everyb- every- they had students there from everywhere, all over the
world and uh.. every student was- did what he w- uh.. according to his
own uh.. accomplishments. And I stayed there four years.

Q: So you saw that there could be an integrated world.

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes. I lived in a completely integrated world.
Integrated dormitories uh.. classrooms, everything. There was no
distinction between uh.. races there. They did not have uh.. sororities
and fraternities on the campus because they didn't have any organization
that no student could- would be able to join. So\... that was the
college I went to.

Q: What was it like returning to Selma and the old ways?

**Pauline Anderson:** Well it was- it was normal \<laugh\> as I had been
brought up.

Q: It didn't make you angry or disappointed?

**Pauline Anderson:** No, I-I-I felt no uh.. hatred toward anybody. I
uh.. went on- went where I had to go and other people went where they
had to go and we did not mix. But.. I had had that experience in college
of mixing.

Q: I understand the church was very important for a lot of reasons.
Maybe you can tell us a little bit about the importance of the church in
those years.

**Pauline Anderson:** Well uh.. \<cough\> our life was centered around
the church and the school and we went to various activities with the
church and later on, much later, I married a minister and uh.. he was at
this church tabernacle for forty years and I was there with him. He was
a- he was the pastor and I was the organist for awhile. At first my
mother was the organist and after her death I became the organist there.
But I worked with the children's choir before- before her death. And
uh\... as I said, our- our life centered around the church.. and the
church a-activities.

Q: When you were a young person, would you call that a sanctuary? What
was the relationship of the church to the bigotry and discrimination
that was going on?

**Pauline Anderson:** Well uh.. I just- I don't know. I wouldn't say we
had too much uh.. had too much influence because our worlds did not mix.
We had- you had o-one world over here and there ano- was a white over
here and uh.. we didn't have very much contact. However, there was some
contact because uh.. my father being at the school, he had- he had uh..
contact with uh.. uh.. organizations of uh.. various sorts. And uh\...
he had uh\... been i-in his own uh.. education. He had- he had been uh..
uh.. in integrated schools. In fact, he went to Brown University and
when he was at Brown University he was the- for awhile he was the only
black student in the school. Huh. But he came out Phi Beta Kappa in his
junior year which uh.. set him apart from.. uh.. I wouldn't say the
other black students because there were no others. Except one year he
said there was one other black student in the school. But uh.. he loved
Brown University and every opportunity he had he- he would go back there
to visit.

Q: It was wonderful that he came here and made his contributions.

**Pauline Anderson:** Well he was here- h-he was- he was uh.. from
Selma. In fact, he was born in Marion, Alabama but his- he was born here
while his fath- he was born in Marion but his father had been a
president of Selma University also, before him and so he lived in Selma
all his- most of his life.

Q: What happened to make Selma such an important place as far as the
Civil Rights Movement?

**Pauline Anderson:** Well, for one thing it was one of the first uh..
cities to have a \<cough\> a campaign for civil rights. There had been
the campaign in Montgomery and uh.. Birminha- uh.. but Selma was the
first s-small city where there was uh.. much activity. I don't know why
they chose Selma.. t- but uh.. they did. And it came here- the-the
movements came to Selma and uh.. met some opposition as you know.

Q: Maybe you can tell us a little about that opposition.

**Pauline Anderson:** \<laugh\> Well uh.. you can probably ge- find more
about it from the newspapers than you can from me because- I- that
afternoon I was not there. I was at home and uh.. we- we were at home
and it was a Sunday afternoon and uh.. 'bout uh.. 3 or 4 o'clock the
telephone started ringing. "Have you heard about what happened in- on
the bridge?" We didn't know anything about it and we turned on the
television and we found out.. what was going on and uh.. E-everybody
knows about what had- what happened then. But uh.. we were not there
that day but on the uh.. the day they had the- three weeks later, they
had another march and we participated in that march. I had been ill and
uh.. I was not able to do a whole lot of walking at that time but uh..
I-I did march across the bridge and I got off- I got out of- out of the
march. I didn't march all the way to Montgomery. I got out of the- out
of the march after we were across the bridge but my husband stayed in
the march a little longer. H-he didn't march all the way to Montgomery
but- but uh.. h- the night before the uh.. the big march in Montgomery
t-t-the march uh.. uh.. climaxed in Montgomery, we had a big rally at
uh.. the St. Jude uh.. complex and we went- we attended that rally. It
had a lot of entertainments and- of various sorts. A lot of- a great
crowd of people. And uh..

Q: What was going through your mind as you watched that concert?

**Pauline Anderson:** Well it was- it was entertainment. Fir- first I
didn't- I didn't realize the uh.. import of the Civil Rights Movement.
As it turned out to be g-going through it, it was just activity. Every
day, every night there was something going on. Activity. And uh.. I
didn't attend uh.. all of the ax- all of the meetings but I did go to
some of the mass meetings and some of the marches. But I was a mon-
mais- mainly at home and uh.. in those days uh.. the hotels and
restaurants were segregated so visitors coming in had to stay in the
homes of the people and uh.. I ha- I don't know how many people stayed
in my home. Some of 'em for a day, some of 'em for a.. two or three
days, some of 'em for a week, but always there was somebody coming in
and out and we- th-the citizens of Selma had to uh.. take people in
their homes because the uh.. hotels, motels and restaurants were closed.
So mostly I was a hostess \<laugh\> at home. Feeding people and housing
them.

Q: So the entire community volunteered?

**Pauline Anderson:** Well- well we had to but there was so many people
coming in from various places and at that- they s- they had to stay in
the homes of the people.. here. The local.

Q: Miss Anderson, you mentioned mass meetings, I know they're gonna have
one at the Tabernacle in a couple of days and we're going to be there
and we're looking forward to it.

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes.

Q: Tell us a little about a mass meeting.

**Pauline Anderson:** Mass meetings uhm.. well there was always a lot of
si- uh.. singing uh.. group singing, congregational singing.. of freedom
songs and uh.. there would be speakers.. from various places, some of
'em local, some of 'em from out of town. And uh.. and they would take up
an offering and uh.. that was mainly the format of the uh.. mass
meetings. And the first mass meeting was held at our church tabernacle.

Q: And that was your husband that would have officiated there?

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes.

Q: What did he speak about at some of these mass meetings?

**Pauline Anderson:** Oh.. well they spoke about freedom, and about
voting and about education and uh.. civil rights, obtaining your civil
rights and uh.. that was mainly what they were talking about\... And
uh.. finally.. the civil rights came.

Q: Tell us a little bit about your husband's involvement in the
movement. He was involved from the very start.

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes he was. He- he told me he went to jail
thirteen times. One time he went to jail and I didn't know where he was.
I thought he was in the jail here in Selma. So I went up t- went up to-
I hadn't been to the jail before uh.. and I was sorta afraid so I got my
father to go with me. So he went up there and we- we went up on the
third floor of the jail and I went up there and asked the jailer, "Where
was he?" Uh.. he told me he was in a camp out there at S- Camp Selma
where they- they would take the children, the uh.. young people. And he
was out there in camp and he was the only adult with them. About a h-
over a hundred uh.. young people in this- this uh.. \[road?\] camp and
that's where they were and so the jailer told me. I said, "I just came
to bring him a change of clothes," 'cause he'd been gone about three
days and I said, "He needs some- n-needs some uh.. clean clothes I
think." So, that's what I went up there for. And he said, "Well, as soon
as uh.. he-he'll be here in a little while to get his breakfast. And as
soon as he gets his breakfast, we're gonna release all of 'em." So..

Q: I understand he was a champion not just in Selma but he traveled
throughout the Black Belt.

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes, he we- he went to jail in many places, not
just in Selma, but in many counties in Alabama.

Q: What was he arrested for? What would get him in jail?

**Pauline Anderson:** O-one thing, contributing to the delinquency of
minors, having a lot of children following him \<laugh\> and uhm.. it
was- back there it was an honor to go to jail. If you hadn't been to
jail you had- you nobody \<laugh\>. So I guess I was nobody. I never
went. I never put myself out there to go but uh.. many hundreds of
people. And after the Civil Rights Movement was over they dismissed all
of the ca- cases. They didn't charge anybody with anything. But uh..

Q: As I remember, your husband led that very first march to the
courthouse.

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes.

Q: What was their goal? What were they after?

**Pauline Anderson:** Uh.. I guess that was the right to vote. I don't
know. He was arrested so many times s- he said it was thirteen times..
So..

Q: I guess too many people were carted off to jail.

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes. We had a- a minister, an elder- elderly
minister who used to pastor in uh.. Atlanta and he had moved to Los
Angeles, California and he was pastoring out there and he came to Selma.
He said he came just to go to jail. He wanted to go to see what it was
like to go to jail \<laugh\>. But Dr. King, who knew him in Atlanta,
persuaded him that he didn't need to go to jail. That he was too old and
he was- he didn't need to go to jail. F- but he expressed his feelings,
he- he just wanted to see what it was like to be in jail. So, he stayed
in our house about a week and uh.. he wanted to- and there were a number
of people who were like him from all over the country coming to Selma
t-to get arrested because they wanted to see what it was like.

Q: What were some of the other sacrifices that people made for the
movement?

**Pauline Anderson:** Well uhm.. of course people made personal
sacrifices in- in going to jail and having- having uh.. uh.. uh..
visitors staying in their homes and feeding them and going to meetings
and.. uh.. of course there was a lot of financing. It was a sacrifice
for- for many people to- to uh.. pay for the entertainment for f-, and
one nigh- they were- and uh.. food was sent here from all over the
country. Canned goods and.. uh.. I remember one time, the First Baptist
Church was so loaded with k- the whole basement was full of canned goods
that people had sent here to take care of the uhm.. the uh.. the
families of people who had gone to jail and visitors.. and uh..

Q: I understand some people put their jobs at risk?

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes. S-some people lost their jobs and uh\... a-
I- there were all kinds of sacrifices people had to make.. in order to
uh.. in order for the movement to progress. And uh..

Q: Well we're sure grateful people made those sacrifices. How do you
think we're doing? Did we make progress? Have things changed as a result
of all those sacrifices?

**Pauline Anderson:** Oh yes \<cough\>. Well the uh.. the main thing was
the Voting Rights was p-passed. And then uh.. the Public Accommodations
Rights was- was passed so that you no longer had the segregation in uh..
uh.. public places like hotels and restaurants and schools. And uh..

Q: You must be proud of you and your husband's efforts in that regard.

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes, his more than mine because I was mostly at
home \<laugh\> and going to work every day.. But uh.. he was out there-
o-out front.

Q: Well those were important people, great leaders in that day, how
about the next generation? Do you see courageous leaders coming up and
coming along?

**Pauline Anderson:** Well they're not as vocal.. and uh.. but we do
have some leaders. We have more people uh.. in p- running for office.
More people, black people, running for off- office. And you have uh..
black people in jobs which they never had before. A-all kind of uh..
governmental jobs and community jobs. And uh.. so uh.. employment has
opened up.

Q: What do you say to young people to inspire them to stand up?

**Pauline Anderson:** Well I don't uh.. I'm not actively associated with
too many young people except for a f-few who come to me uh.. to study
music just individually. I'm not uh.. engaged in-in school teaching
anymore but u-uh.. and so I don't know what's going on in the schools
except for what I read in the papers about the activities but uh.. there
are some people who are striving and you have more young people going to
college.. and uh.. trade schools and- and that's opened up an avenue of
employment.. for- for African-Americans- jobs that they never had before
because before that you were uhm.. most of the jobs were service jobs.
But uh.. since then, all kind of jobs have opened up in the industry, in
business uh-uh.. in government service and uh.. well any kind of job has
opened up. And uh.. young people are going to college.. and preparing
themselves.

Q: Is the struggle over or is there still more to do?

**Pauline Anderson:** There's always more to do \<laugh\>. Always be- we
never reach our climax. There's always something else that we can aspire
to. And uh.. some- some young people are aspiring for higher quality of
jobs. And then some are satisfied with- with uh.. what they have, but I
think uh.. in general, we have more people who are going- who are
aspiring to things of higher nature and uh.. you're always reading in
the newspaper about somebody who has succeeded in his area of- of uh..
expertise. S- so I think the Civil Rights Movement has helped. It's
inspired young people to do whatever they want to do.. and to go as high
as they can go.

Q: Each year you have the Jubilee and that's coming up.

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes.

Q: Tell us a little about that.

**Pauline Anderson:** Well uhm.. the Jubilee is here to remind us-s
of-of the past, and remind us of what happened on the bridge and what
happened in the various activities of the sk-Civil Rights Movement.. And
I suppose we do need celebrations from time to time to remind us,
otherwise it would be too easy to forget.

Q: The title of the program that we're working on is Never Lose Sight of
Freedom. We sure hope you're right.

**Pauline Anderson:** Yes. \<laugh\>

Q: Let me ask you if there's a message you might want to give to young
people, to the next generation.

**Pauline Anderson:** Well my- my first advice would be to stay in
school and stay with the church because those are the two fundamental
o-organizations for development of young people. That was- and uh..
study hard, many s-students go to school but they don't study too much.
Try to learn as ofte- a-as much as you can about as many things as you
can. And that's why reading is important.. And uh.. you should always be
reading. I learned to read from my father, he was- he read all the time.
Every time you saw him, he had a book. And if you come to our house
you'd find at least thirty bookcases all full of books. I don't know who
read all those books or who would ever read 'em but they're there. So,
we always had books in our house.. and newspapers and magazines but
everybody was not that fortunate. Everybody- everybody uh.. d-didn't
f-focus on reading. But that's the main thing I would tell the children.
To read, read everything.. you can. And stick with the church and the
school.

Q: What are some of the problems that..

\<crew talk\>

\<blank from 01:01:24 on\>

\#### End of CD 11 \####