**FTS-HHS-ACF**

**Moderator: Rob Colombini**

**December 12, 2007**

**1:00 pm CT**

Coordinator: ...are in a listen-only mode. To ask a question during the
question and answer session, please press Star/1 on your touchtone
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I\'d like to turn the meeting over to your host for today\'s call, Mr.
Rob Colombini. Sir, you may begin.

Rob Colombini: Good morning. This is Rob from the Region X Training and
Technical Assistance Network. Welcome. It seems so odd to being doing
this over the phone and not in front of a group of people.

So thank you for connecting today. We are really excited. There\'s been
a lot of requests recently from Training & Technical Assistance Network
in Region X regarding playground information. And we are lucky enough to
have as our speaker today someone who has been working in this field for
many years.

(Bobby Crooks) who\'s our speaker today is from the National Head Start
Resource Center in Arlington, Virginia. He\'s a Senior Program Area
Specialist in facilities. And so we want to welcome him. He\'s also a
private consultant for project teams in construction management.

And (Bobby\'s) going to talk to us a little bit about the federal
standards as far as playgrounds, maybe some ADA accessibility and what
that means as well as, what may be appropriate or inappropriate for
outside play areas. And then for the last ten or fifteen minutes, we
will have time for you to ask some questions. So welcome (Bobby):

(Bobby Crooks): Rob, thank you very much. And everyone that\'s come
onboard with this little training today, I hope that we can get to
everyone\'s questions and everyone can kind of have an opportunity to
maybe express concerns or issues they may be having on an individual
basis or a regional basis because I know there are also TA folks out
there that cover a large area.

But again, thank you for the invitation. It was my pleasure back in
October to work with the Oregon Head Start Association. So I think this
is kind of a offspring of that. But I enjoyed the time out there in
Eugene and it\'s beautiful country. And thank you for the invitation
then and thank you for the invitation now.

As Rob indicated, we\'ll be talking mostly about playgrounds. And I want
to, you know, if at any time, and I don\'t want to cut playgrounds short
or limit anyone\'s issues and concerns and questions about playgrounds.
But if there are other things at the end that you wanted to get into,
that would be fine with me too.

Or you can give me a call and even follow-up questions or concerns that
you may have, and you call me on my 800 number and that is 800-303-
0705. And that\'s a free call.

Rob Colombini: Yeah!

(Bobby Crooks): So go ahead and make the call if you want.

Now, in terms of playgrounds, first of all there are no federal
regulations on playgrounds. So there a lot of standards and as everyone
knows that came out. I think they came in emails from Rob \-- is that
there are last February, we had a IM that came out concerning, primarily
dealt with the uses zone issue of our playgrounds.

And the use zone, as we all know, is that area around our play apparatus
that is placed there to help prevent critical injury primarily to the
head and spine and those kinds of - but it, you know, also is to help
broken arms and fingers, and legs, and what not.

So other than that, the US Consumer Product Safety Commission has a
handbook out. It\'s the handbook on public playgrounds safety. And that
has been out for quite some time. And if you\'re looking for a standard,
if you\'re looking for a document that is widely used and widely
accepted, that\'s going to be it.

Many states and I can\'t think of any states in the Northwest. But there
are several states that their Departments of Education or their
Education Advisory Committees or however that state government is
organized, required, or mandated, they apply the criteria of the
Consumer Product Safety Commission\'s handbook on public playground
safety.

They apply that document to their playgrounds. And in many instances,
those playgrounds must comply with those criteria in order to be
approved. And that\'s in the planning stage. So given that, you know, if
they don\'t have that document, you can go online and get it.

It\'s not that difficult to download or you can send me an email or give
me a call, I\'ll be happy to send a copy to you. You can also call the
US Consumer Product Safety Commission and they can send one as well.

So having said that, that\'s the first thing that I think everyone needs
to realize. And that document is going to be used. Now going back to
that IM of last February, realize that our office of Head Start like
many other government entities they will use a document or they will use
an opportunity to get their toe in the door and then make the door
hopefully it gets open more and more and more open.

So if you kind of read between the lines, that document appears to be
what is going to be or what will be used in the future. Now in that IM
they\'re saying that beginning in January of \'08 which is next month,
that document will be used for all federal reviews specifically as it
applies to the uses zone.

And again, that use zone is that area, that cushioned area, that
protected area around play apparatus and elevated play structures. And
there is a chart in that document in the Consumer Product Safety
Commission handbook there\'s a chart in that document that kind of gives
you a guide as to how or what those depth requirements are.

So use that and realize that if you\'re scheduled for a review or
you\'re planning on a review and we all will have them. And so, you
know, you might as well start thinking about them now. That document
will be used.

Now what I mean by getting the toe in the door, because there are no
real hard concrete regulations for playgrounds and that US document is
being used, the Office of Head Start will probably and I can\'t say this
for certain but I would not rule it out. There will be probably more and
more interest being paid to that document as a guide for your onsite
federal reviews.

So just, you know, a word to the wise and a heads up for those that are
in facilities and their responsibilities include those playgrounds. It
would not hurt you, it would not be ill advised recommendation to, when
you\'re looking at your playgrounds pay very, very close attention to
what that document is calling for. So please be aware.

That\'s the primary focus of that IM or that was or that is the primary
focus of that IM that came out in February. So be aware of it. The other
thing that I think it\'s really important for everyone to realize is
what regulations do we really have when it comes to playgrounds?

And I think there\'s a lot of misunderstanding about what a playground
should look like and what it shouldn\'t look like. And, you know, how
big an apparatus should we buy? And how many play components should it
have? And what should a playground look like and so and so forth?

And you really have to go back to the 1304.53, those are your
performance standards, revised performance standards, 1304.53 deals with
facilities, equipment and materials and playgrounds are mentioned. And
it does give some guidelines and some information about, you know, the
75 square feet of child usable space in the playground and so on and so
forth.

And those kinds of things that, you know, we have and we know, and we
understand. But I think there\'s a couple of things that are maybe a
little bit overlooked.

One of those is what the regulations talk about in terms of what should
be on the playground. And realize now I say this with a little bit of
tongue in cheek because I do know there are state licensing folks out
there that they like those play apparatus. They like them. They think
that they\'re, you know, the most important thing on playground.

Where we at the \-\-- and I\'m not an Office of Head Start employee, but
I work with them very closely on all of these issues \-- and all of us,
we are really, really committed to the fact that the revised performance
standards simply talk about a variety of play activities on a variety of
play surfaces in which the child performs a variety of, you know, play
movements. And that\'s the key under it all.

There\'s nothing in those performance standards that says that you\'ve
got to go out and spend \$40,000, \$50,000 for a play apparatus that has
20 or 30 play components on it. The whole idea behind a Head Start or
even an early Head Start is to make the child move. That\'s the effort.

That\'s what was trying - that\'s the underlying component of those
revised performance standards. And in many instances, those play
apparatus, those elevated play structures really don\'t meet that the
intent of the revised performance standards.

Now I don\'t want everyone to get the idea that I\'m really opposed to
these things. They\'re not my favorite. I really don\'t particularly
support the idea of elevated play structures because I think that really
does take away from what the performance standards are trying to
promote.

I think the performance standards are trying to say, whatever you do on
your playgrounds, the intent is to create play activities in which the
child actually moves. And it\'s an extension, the second part of what we
really want to get out of the revised performance standards is that the
play yard, the playground is an extension of the classroom.

The classroom is an area for learning. And that doesn\'t mean that the
playground is not an area for learning. And I think that\'s one of the
other elements of the revised performance standards that we sometimes
kind of miss, you know.

I grew up in an age in which we had recess. And, you know, we all looked
forward to recess because we get to go out and burn off the energy, and
the steam and everything. You know, when we\'re a kids, we have a lot
energy to burn. For Head Start though and for our early Head Start
programs that isn\'t necessarily the case.

The case for Head Start is the learning component and bringing the child
into a learning environment and that learning environment is both inside
and outside. And I think that\'s really one of the secondary issues or
the secondary emphasis of what the revised performance are trying to
create. And of course it talked about supervision and, you know, so and
so forth.

So in terms of our regulations, those are the kinds of things that I\'d
really like for you to kind of keep in the back of your mind. Realizing
that the IM that came out deals with the critical height and the fall
zone material or the fall zone depth and what it\'s supposed to do.

And of course that IM \-- backtracking just a little bit \-- that IM
really doesn't say that you\'re suppose to use this material or that
material or whatever material. There are those standards and those
recommendations and depth charts that are in the document, the Consumer
Product Safety Commission\'s document.

And then we all know there are the woodchips. And there\'s tree
engineered wood materials and there\'s the pour and place materials. And
there\'s a wide variety of stuff out there. And the Product Safety
Commission does in some ways talk about them.

There are things that the Consumer Product Safety Commission says that
is acceptable that we on the Head Start side don\'t necessarily agree
with. And those things are sand and pea gravel.

So when you\'re looking at your playground and you\'ve got sand on
there, remember when it comes to sand because of the attraction that
some of our pets have to sand, we call for that sand to be covered. And
if you\'ve got it as a fall zone it makes it extremely difficult to
cover that material on a nightly basis.

And the pea gravel particularly dealing with small children can and I
guess any aged child, very likely can end up as a projectile or
something that they put in their mouth and swallow. So again, the fall
zone materials we\'d really like for you to stay away from sand and pea
gravel. But the wood chips, the wood matting, the wood carpet, the pour
and place, the pre-engineered wood chips, all of things are good.

When you\'re looking at fall materials, you really want to look at
something that does not compress against sand and pea gravel due to
press. But one of the issues that you will have if you use a woodchip is
the fact that it\'s going to compress. And then that\'s going to hold
water. And then grass is growing up through it and, you know, you\'re
right back to square one.

If you\'re using any, any wood product as your fall zone that has got to
be maintained. We really recommend that you get a small tiller and with
an adjustable tilling blade on it and till it up. And keep it mulched.

Or use a pitchfork if you have, you know, if you have the manpower and
the elbow grease to do it is to get a pitchfork and go out there and
turn it over. And keep it turned in order for it to not collect moisture
and to not grow moss and bacteria in it and, you know, those kind of
things.

So fall zone materials, if you\'re using anything other than a pour and
place, will require a maintenance program that\'s going to keep it
turned over and fresh, and maintained and cleaned and those kinds of
things. Just be very careful in using it.

Be very careful in the elevated play structure that you buy because the
ADA regulations will have a direct impact or they have a direct impact
on the number of play activities or play components that you have on
your play yard.

In the ADA regulations it talks about an elevated play structure having
a certain number of play components that are not ADA accessible. And for
those numbers, then there\'s a chart that goes in there. If you can\'t
find it, let me know and I\'ll be really happy to send it to you so you
can get an idea.

But it talks about for an elevated play structure with a certain number
of play components on that structure, you have to have a certain number
of additional play components on the accessible route. Now remember that
when you\'re dealing with play components and accessible route, dirt is
not accessible.

Mulch is and others - a lot of arguments about whether mulch is really
accessible or not. But of course concrete, your tricycle tracks and your
sidewalks, those are all ADA accessible or whether it be an asphalt
material.

ADA have a very specific list of what is accessible material and wasn\'t
accessible material. So in that chart of the ADA chart talking about
playgrounds and ADA, the number of elevated play components on an
elevated play structure requires additional play components on the
accessible route.

Now the accessible route has got to go to that play component. And on
that route you have additional play activities in order to comply with
the ADA requirements. Now the other part of that is those additional
play components, a certain number of those additional play components
must be different.

For example \-- and I\'m just pulling this off the top of my head
because I think I\'ve used it before \-- if you have a play component
with 15 play activities or if you have a play apparatus with 15 play
components, it seems to me like there has to be five additional play
activities along the ADA route or the accessible route. Of those five
play components, three have to be different.

So that gives you an idea of how that play component is going to affect
your design and development of that play yard. And I think for me,
that\'s the one reason why when I\'m working with a lot of programs, I
kind of go back and I say, ask that program, do you really want a play
apparatus? Or do you want play components? Because you can make as many
of them accessible on the accessible route or not, you know.

And some of them, they\'re just simply not going to be accessible no
matter. You know, if you have a slide that goes up to a certain height
\-- and slides we really like to keep the slide under six foot tall \--
you\'re not going to make the slide accessible no matter what you do.

So, you know, those are the kinds of things that you have to make a
decision. And again, as I said before, there are a lot of licensing
folks out there that they like play components. They like the elevated
play structure because it provides, you know, a wide variety of play
activities and some of them require the child to move and some of them
don\'t. Remember the philosophy of Head Start is to get the child
moving.

So you\'ve got your playground design. You\'ve got the ADA regulations
that come into effect and to think about how all that works. And what an
elevated play component and then a number of play components that you
have on the accessible route and so on and so forth.

I think that when it\'s all said and done about the playground is that
for me, and again this is just me talking and it may not have a lot
validity to your particular area or your particular licensing person or
your particular playground, I would much rather see play activities that
are not elevated and, you know, that provide more of a challenge to the
child.

You know a mound of dirt to me is a great opportunity for a child to dig
and climb and run and, you know, those kinds of thing then it would be
to have an elevated play structure. But I\'m not going to beat this
horse to death any longer.

We talked about the ADA accessibility and playground alternations and
the idea there is - One of the best, one of the very best ADA play
activities is the tricycle track not a standard three foot tricycle
track. But make the tricycle track five feet or six feet in order to get
a wheelchair on it and tricycles at the same time going in the same or
opposite directions that is fine.

Also when you\'re looking at your tricycle tracks, you can use that
track as your ADA route, your accessibility route. And it doesn\'t just
have to be just a round circle. They can meander in and around the
playground. It could take you to a variety of locations in the
playground.

And, you know, concrete does cost. But if you\'re looking at the price
of concrete versus the price of an elevated play apparatus, I think
you\'ll quickly understand that concrete is a lot less expensive.

So use the tricycle track for a ADA accessible play activity meandering
it around the playground in order to get to those other play components
that are ADA accessible. And for the most part, in that instance,
you\'re going to be in compliance with all of your ADA requirements. And
you\'re going to probably have a pretty good layout for your playground
as well.

Some of the concerns that we\'ve had in the past concerning
inappropriate play equipment and I\'m going to use one of my programs
here and kind of give you an idea of what we\'ve talked about in the
past. Let\'s see if I can find it here. Let\'s see.

I know we talked about crushed or shear. And we talked about - let me
find it. I had it here and then I lost it. So if you just hang on with
me just a second I\'ll try to pull this thing back up. Here we go. No, I
thought I had it but I didn\'t. Well anyway let me look at it while I\'m
talking with you.

The inappropriate equipment, obviously is things like your teeter
tooters, and your monkey bars, and elevated climbing poles, and oh geez,
there\'s so many of them. I think if you\'re looking - rather than
trying to talk about the things that are inappropriate, I think it would
be better if we talked about some of the things that were appropriate.

And a lot of information on playgrounds and a lot of the appropriateness
of playground equipment is talked about in the Head Start Center Design
Guide. And that second edition came out, in what about three years ago
something like that. Again, you can get it online. It is in a book type
form. And if you don\'t have a copy of it; let me know. And I\'ll be
happy to send you a copy of it.

But again, you can also get it online. And you\'re welcome to give me a
call if you can\'t find it and I\'ll be happy to send it to you that
way. Let\'s see what time it is? It\'s about, I\'ve got about 1:30. Rob
did you have any other areas that you wanted to talk about?

Rob Colombini: No, (Bobby) I think those were it. Maybe we need to open
it up for questions now. How\'s that sound? Can you do that for us
(Julie)?

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Rob Colombini: Still there (Bobby)?

(Bobby Crooks): I\'m here yes.

Rob Colombini: Yes I think there\'s, you know, there\'s been a lot of
conversation in our office just around looking at playgrounds. When you
do design a playground and what can be used instead of play structures.
And, you know, we\'ve seen some really neat things out there that have
just used berms, and you know, roadways for bicycles as well as just
plain grass versus the big play structures.

So I\'m imagining you\'re seeing some of those changes across the
nation?

(Bobby Crooks): Oh yes. And it\'s really exciting. One of the biggest
changes that is occurring is in your early Head Start playgrounds. And,
you know, honestly there are very few companies out there - well let me
take that back. There\'s a lot of companies out there that make
playground equipment for the age group of infants and toddlers. And, you
know, some of the, just like any of it, it\'s just like any of it. Some
of it is appropriate and some of it isn\'t.

But what we\'re beginning to see is there\'s a lot of thought going into
early Head Start, infants and toddlers\' playgrounds in which - and if
you think about it, the things that stimulate and particularly an infant
are their senses. And there are architects that are working with a lot
of early Head Start programs that are developing sensory gardens.
Gardens that are sensory playgrounds and you can kind of go both ways.

But playgrounds that are designed specifically for the sense of smell,
the sense of touch, the sense of hearing and the sense of feel. And
that\'s where you may have like a crawling area rather than a tricycle
track or a small crawling track in which maybe you\'ve got a pour and
place material so it\'s not real hot or real hard.

And then maybe you\'ve got some things embedded in like marbles they can
feel as they go over or round things or square things or whatever. And
then on the sides, they\'ve got chimes or bells or things that blow in
the wind.

And, you know, like wind chimes and then wind socks for the visual, and
wind wheels that turn with the various colors and a lot of sensory
things. And it doesn\'t have to be a really large area. You know, it
could be an area that obviously you want it fairly well shaded. But
something that is easily maintained and not out in the open where other
activities are going around it.

Because that\'s more appropriate for the infant side of it. And on the
toddler side of it, we\'re seeing a lot of playgrounds in which I don\'t
know if in the Northeast area they have what they call box woods. It\'s
a low growing hedge. And you can shape in it in any way that you want.

But they\'re using these hedges, low growing say no more than a foot and
a half to two feet. And they\'re building labyrinths out of them in
which obviously, you know, the child can see over the top of it. So
it\'s not a scary thing in which they\'re feeling trapped and enclosed,
you know.

But they can get the feeling of trying to figure things out. Walking
through them and seeing where they\'re going and, you know, making
decisions as to paths and location and how to get from Point A to Point
B. And, you know, kind of figuring things out.

And a lot of things with small bridges and walking areas and, you know,
again tricycles if they\'re getting into those. So I think the greatest
changes that we\'re seeing in playgrounds is really happening with early
Head Start playgrounds not so much the Head Start playgrounds.

Head Start\'s been around for so long. And there\'s been so much theory
and so much experimentation that have gone on with our Head Start
playgrounds. And Rob, you\'re right a lot of berms, a lot of mounding.
We really are seeing some programs be real creative in getting away from
the chain link as a separating barrier and getting into plank fences and
picket fences.

And using what like a split rail but protecting the split rail with
shrubs and hedge and those kind of things. So it\'s, you know, I mean
it\'s not something that the child is going to be able to walk through
or get through. But it takes away the hardness of a chain linked fence
and things like that.

You know, there\'s a lot of creativity going on. And of course, we
really like, in terms of the shade and other issues that we\'re seeing
some changes on. There\'s a lot of shade structures going on which is
good. There\'s nothing wrong with it. And of course natural shade is the
best in which you\'ve got trees and those kind of things.

But you\'re also seeing a lot of programs using shade or extending the
eves of their centers out particularly if you have a classroom that has
direct access to the playground. A center is maybe extending the eve of
the building out maybe as many as ten feet. And they\'re using that as a
shaded area.

And they\'re also using that in times of inclement weather where you can
still go outside. And it\'s the extension of the playground in which
they can go outside and be outside but yet they\'re out of the weather
and they\'re not in the classroom.

And they\'re doing some creative things without either enclosing it or
keeping it open. It just depends on what your weather requirements or
what your weather demands have for you. But some other neat things going
on with infant and toddler playgrounds particularly, quite interesting.

Rob Colombini: (Julie) do we have questions on the line?

Coordinator: There are no questions at this time.

(Bobby Crooks): Wow, no questions. That\'s mean I\'ve answered every
single thing anyone could ever possibly ask about a playground.

Rob Colombini: Another question (Bobby) I had was, you know, a lot of
times I think grantees struggle with trying to develop these playgrounds
whether they\'re new or they\'re redoing an existing one. And it\'s hard
to find contractors that understand early childhood education.

Are there links out there to people? Are they to call you? Because I
know you\'re a consultant for that. But I think sometimes as a director,
you may not know where to go for those kind of things.

(Bobby Crooks): Well if you\'re building a new building, you obviously
want to include that as part of your design contract. I don\'t know that
I would necessarily include it as part of the construction contract. But
I would definitely want my architects to be involved with design of the
playground. They\'re the professionals in the field obviously. They are.

If they don\'t have the expertise in-house, at least they know landscape
architects and design architects and early child architects that are
pretty good in the field or in the area. And they can go from there.
There\'s really not any kind of a clearinghouse of information about
architects that are good and architects that aren\'t good in terms of
playground design.

And I really it think it has to do I think a lot of times when we\'re
looking at design and how we want a playground laid out, maybe a lot of
times we\'ve relied a little too much on outside expertise or outside
knowledge or outside architects. And I say outside not really meaning
outside of Head Start but outside folks like an architect.

I think over the years, I\'ve really come to be a little leery of an
architect that says that they\'ve got maybe design experience with an
elementary school or a daycare. And they think that this is just an
extension of that which it really is not.

And not only in the playground design but in the overall, you know,
design of our Head Start centers. We are really quite different than an
elementary school as we all know. And that difference extends really
into the playground because I don\'t know that a lot of architects
really have a full understanding of a playground being an extension of
the classroom.

And that because of that difference, sometimes it is very hard for an
architect to - You know, and saying all of this, and I say it because I
think that in our regions, in our centers, in our Head Start
associations, and in our groups of people that we know and associate
with whether it would be a migrant Head Start program or a early Head
Start program or preschool program. Or whether we\'re in Alaska or
Oregon or anywhere in between, we really have a lot more knowledge and a
lot more expertise than we give ourselves credit for.

I think that in most Head Start programs that have been around for a
while, they know what works. People really do know what works. And it
may be sometimes that we have to bend a little bit and, you know, if
we\'re old school. And we\'re seeing a lot of new stuff coming along, we
have to really be open and allow that stuff to come into our programs.

But I think that over the years, we have learned so much about Head
Start and early Head Start and what works in the playground. Just like
we\'ve learned what works in the classroom. That a lot of good expertise
resides within our staff and people who watch the children and
understand children\'s movements and the activities children need so
really good resources.

And I\'m not saying that to say that you should not use an architect.
Because I think there are some architects out there that do understand
it. But for the most part a lot of them don\'t. I get plans all the time
looking at a building and looking at a design, and looking at a
playground. And I do that for free.

I mean there\'s absolutely no cost if you\'ve got a drawing or you\'ve
got an idea of a playground and you would like to have someone on the
outside look at it, I\'m all for it. I do that free all the time. The
only cost that it\'s going have to you is the postage to put it in a
tube or if you can put it on a PDF file and send it to me by email,
absolutely all of that stuff free.

And I really try to turn them around quite quickly. If you get it to me,
you know, late in the afternoon, it may be, you know, say if you send it
to me on a late Monday afternoon, I may not be able to get it to it
until some time Tuesday and you may not get it back until Wednesday. I
try to get it turned around, you know, within a couple of days no matter
what it is.

And the same kind holds true with, you know, design and ideas and plans
for a construction project. If you\'re looking at a classroom or overall
building design, I do all of that free. Anything that I can do in my
office for you is free, completely. Whether it be looking at plans.

If you\'ve got a maintenance program that you\'re looking at or if
you\'ve got 1309 application that you\'re trying to put together, if
you\'ve got issues with or concerns with, you know, those kinds of
things. If you just have questions and concerns about whatever there is,
maintenance, operations, facilities, designs, construction, hiring,
firing, whatever.

Anything I can do over the Internet, on the telephone or in the office,
all of that stuff is absolutely free to every Head Start program
anywhere. So the only cost is when I come out and actually have to
perform like I mentioned earlier in Oregon at the Oregon Head Start
association and we did a great, a large amount of training over a three
day period.

And Rob was right. I do construction management. But, you know, of
course that\'s a whole job. That\'s everything from hiring the
architects, to working with the architects, to putting the project
together, and getting it built. And closing it out and everything in
between. And those projects come, you know, along very - every so often,
not a great deal.

But so that\'s the kind of things that I do. So it\'s not, you know,
don\'t be afraid to call me thinking well if I call him, he\'s going to
charge me. No, no, that\'s not what I do and that\'s not really the way
that I want any of this to come across.

Rob Colombini: (Bobby), another quick question. Do you have any ideas
for programs that have an existing play structure and it\'s either
woodchips or whatever that ground may be of maybe making some changes
that could be potentially inexpensive but also, you know, embellishing
their existing playground?

(Bobby Crooks): You mean like keeping the structure in place?

Rob Colombini: Right, yes. Because obviously when, you know, a lot of us
who run Head Start programs have inherited those structures or have had
to put those in and obviously they\'re quite expensive. And so trying to
either maintain them or add additional activities is one way of, you
know, making some changes.

(Bobby Crooks): You know, I really don\'t. Because well first of all I
think that people that design things, they\'re really smart. So they
design them in which, you know, if you want to add anything to them you
almost have to add stuff that they manufacture otherwise it\'s not going
to fit. Or it\'s not going to look right. It\'s not going to work. You
know, these folks are very, very smart.

So I really don\'t know that there\'s anything. And you\'re right, a lot
of our structures we inherit, you know. And that\'s why I really don\'t
know that there\'s a lot that we can do with something that is there. I
really think that you\'ve got to look at the structure first of all to
see if it\'s age appropriate.

And I think secondly you\'ve got to look at the structure to see what
the ADA, how ADA is going to be applied to that structure. Do you have
accessible components? Do you have a transfer station in which a person
in a wheelchair can transfer onto the component or to the apparatus and
are there any components on that apparatus that then become accessible
to that person with the disabilities and the challenges.

So, you know, those are the first two things that you\'ve got to look
at. Then I think you really have to look at your fall zone and the
measurements of it. And the way that you put the fall zone together. A
lot of fall zones, I hate to say this, but when we first started talking
about fall zone and uses zones. Actually we first started talking about
it, the company called them fall zones. And then we changed it to use
zones. But whether you use fall zone or use zone it\'s still the same.

When we first started putting these things in place we really didn\'t
know for the most part back in the 90s and maybe even as early as the
80s when we started putting all these use zones, we really didn\'t know
what we were doing. We would go out, we\'d buy mulch. Or we would buy
something and put down there. And we\'d think, you know, we\'ve got it
all figured out now.

But the bottom line is after a few years we saw mold and mildew. And we
saw grass growing up. We didn\'t know how to get rid of it. There is a
way that you use landscaping fabric and you can use gravel, several
inches of gravel, three inches or four inches of just regular, old,
cheap driveway gravel.

And then another layer of landscaping fabric. And this is the
landscaping fabric that breathes. It\'s not the plastic, it\'s a fabric
where water can penetrate it. Because one of the things that you\'re
trying to do is get the water down off of that top surface.

And pulling it down with the rock or helping there with the rock. The
rock actually helps remove the water from the area. And it, you know,
helps prevent the molding and the mildewing and all of that stuff.

But then once you\'ve got a layer of landscape fabric on the ground.
You\'ve got gravel and then you\'ve got another landscape fabric. And
then you\'ve got the fall zone. And you\'ve got the mulch material or
whatever you\'re using. And that really is the best design for a fall
zone or a uses zone.

Because one of the issues again, is grass growing up. If you\'re using
the landscaping fabric obviously the grass isn\'t going to grow up. But
having said all of that, all of that still does not take the place of
just simply going out with a pitchfork or rotor tiller or tiller that
has an adjustable blade on it where you can\'t go down but two or three,
four inches at a time. And till it up and keep it moving. And keep it
turned over. That\'s the best thing that you can do for your playground
or for your use zone.

Other than that, you know, the only thing that you\'re really going to
do with these apparatuses is to take care of them and keep them
maintained if you have wood apparatus. And some of there are wood. You
really have to have a maintenance program in place to maintain that wood

Meaning that if you are in a climate that is harsh whether it be heat
and sun in the summer and cold in the winter and rain and ice and snow
and sleet in the winter, you\'re going to have to have a polyurethane
program in place.

And sometimes that may be more than twice a year or at least twice a
year and in many instances more than twice a year in which you\'ve got
to go out inspect those play apparatus for splinters and breaks and
those kinds of things. And then polyurethane it and keep it maintained
where the apparatus itself doesn\'t become a health and safety issue for
the children.

But I know that a lot of our playgrounds have the plastic elevated play
structures. And, you know, for the most part those are fairly
maintenance free. Now they\'re not completely maintenance free and
don\'t think that they are. Even though a manufacturer would you tell
you, yes once you have it installed it\'s forever maintenance free.
That\'s not the truth.

The truth is it still has to be maintained. It still has to be inspected
on at least an annual basis. And remember in your performance standards,
your center and your playground is required to have received at least an
annual health and safety checklist or health and safety inspection. And
so yes, you really need to be careful with that play apparatus.

And simply because the manufacturer said, you know, it\'s going to be
there for the next hundred years and it\'s not going to need anything
done to it. It stills needs to be inspected. It stills need to be
maintained. The parts will break, parts will wear out.

And particularly on the play apparatus that has a slide or, you know, an
area in which the child has an accelerated movement off the apparatus
onto the play surface, you\'re going to get holes and dips and those
kinds of things. So all of that has to be maintained and taken care of.

One of the biggest issues that I see with elevated play structure is
that the height from the blade of the slide to the uses zone is not what
the manufacturer calls for or is not an appropriate height for an infant
or a preschooler. We\'re, you know, talking short legs and small fall
areas.

So you really want to very, very - be very, very careful when you\'re
putting those elevated play structures in place. And you\'ve got to know
where your uses zone height is going to come up to in order to make sure
that you don\'t have an extended area or an extended height between the
use zone and the blade of the slide.

And then remember that the Consumer Product Safety Commission handbook
calls for around at a minimum six feet. All the way around any play
apparatus whether it be a elevated play structure or whether it be a
non-elevated play structure, you\'ve got to have a minimum of six feet
use zone all the way around it. And a lot of times you get - you don\'t
get that six feet from the blade of the slide to the edge of the use
zone.

And the other thing that you want to be real careful if you do have
swings and, of course, you know, there\'s a lot things. But are we
suppose to have swings? Are we not suppose to have swings? There\'s
nothing in the revised performance standards that says no you cannot
have swings.

We talk about the swings going back to earlier what I mentioned was that
it\'s more important for the child to move than it is for the apparatus
to move. And, you know, (unintelligible) well if they\'re in the swing,
they\'re moving. No, technically the child isn\'t moving. The swing is
moving but technically the child is sitting in the swing.

So, you know, maybe the person\'s behind the child pushing them is
getting a lot of movement out of it but for the most part the child is
just along for the ride, dragging their feet as they go along and
creating another hole that has to be maintained.

But if you do have swings or if you\'re thinking of purchasing a swing
or installing a swing on your playground, there are some pretty good
height standards, not requirements but criteria or suggestions or
standards for you to look at.

And, you know, something not over six feet for a preschool and I think -
or is it eight, I think maybe eight feet for preschool and six foot for
a infant and toddler. And no more than two swing buckets or swing set
seats per day.

You know, there\'s a lot of measurements and things that we go. A lot of
swing apparatus have gone away from the S hooks which is very, very
good. They\'ve gone away from them.

And they\'ve come up with some very good, very safe, and very secure
locking mechanisms for the bucket or the seat to go lock onto the chains
that doesn\'t create pinches or finger entrapments for the children and
those kinds of things so.

Coordinator: Excuse me please, we do have questions from the phone if
you\'d like to take them?

Rob Colombini: Oh sure.

(Bobby Crooks): I\'m ready. I was just rambling along.

Coordinator: Thank you sorry. Our first question comes from (Allison
Laughlin).

(Allison Laughlin): Can I speak now, can you hear me?

(Bobby Crooks): I can hear you.

(Allison Laughlin): Okay isn\'t that great. Okay, hi (Bob) this is
(Allison). Thank you, it\'s lots of wonderful information.

(Bobby Crooks): You\'re welcome.

(Allison Laughlin): One thing I keep getting questions about is critical
heights.

(Bobby Crooks): Yes.

(Allison Laughlin): And I\'m looking at the chart on critical heights
from page five of the handbook for public playground safety.

(Bobby Crooks): Yes?

(Allison Laughlin): And it\'s the issue of a six inch uncompressed
(unintelligible) woodchips. You\'ve got a four foot structure or a one
and half fall zone on a structure. And how much, you know, it just gives
you the uncompressed depth for a seven foot high critical height fall
ground, critical height I mean.

What do you do with heights less than that? I mean I see programs who
have the plastic structures that are about a foot and a half critical
height and they have them on grass. Is that adequate?

(Bobby Crooks): A foot in the height - I mean, I\'m sorry.

(Allison Laughlin): A foot...

(Bobby Crooks): A foot and a half height, 18 inches and they\'re using
uncompressed depth at six inches and what they\'re saying is the
critical height is...

(Allison Laughlin): Seven feet.

(Bobby Crooks): Seven feet, yes.

(Allison Laughlin): There\'s nothing less than seven feet on the chart.

(Bobby Crooks): Yes. I think that what\'s being communicated there with
this handbook is that that is their minimum if I\'m understanding your
question. I think that is what they\'re using as their minimum height
standard. Does that sound like what you\'re talking about?

(Allison Laughlin): A minimum height so you\'re saying a 1½ foot
critical height structure would need a fall ground?

(Bobby Crooks): Yes. Anything up to that would be - yes. I think that
everything is going to have to have a uses zone underneath it. I think
that\'s what they\'re using. Let\'s see if I\'m reading this right.
You\'re talking about loose fill material?

(Allison Laughlin): Well I was just using woodchips as an example. I
mean when you look at a playground, you\'ve got things flat on the
ground. And then you have everything from an inch high, you know, a
balance beam...

(Bobby Crooks): Yes?

(Allison Laughlin): ...six inches high to a foot and a foot and a half.
And I just don\'t know what height you have to start having...

(Bobby Crooks): Well if you look underneath that table, over you\'ve got
two columns. Over on the right hand column, the full first paragraph, it
starts with the word table one. And it says for example, uncompressed
woodchips is used as a minimum of six inches to critical heights of
seven feet.

So what I understand using this is that anything up to seven feet must
have six inches period. That\'s the minimum - six inches is the minimum
amount that you can have up to seven feet.

(Allison Laughlin): Okay. That makes sense. But can I have another
question or do you have a big pile?

(Bobby Crooks): Okay, yes.

(Allison Laughlin): So it\'s about you started out with a real nice
description of natural playgrounds. And I wondered what was the minimum
you could have to make it a playground? I keep thinking, you know, I
visualize the berms and the green grassy fields and the pile of dirt.

But when I look at the performance standards, it talks about climbing
opportunities. How are we getting climbing opportunities in natural
playgrounds?

(Bobby Crooks): Well the climbing opportunities is just the mounds
themselves. I mean that\'s the climbing opportunity for the most part,
if you\'re really trying to create a natural playground, a climbing
opportunity is not going to involve any steps.

It\'s just going to be involve elevation or grade elevation changes
from, you know, one elevation to a higher elevation. And there\'s a
slope in which the child has to, you know, manipulate and maneuver up
that slope.

I think that\'s really what we\'re getting at when we talk about natural
playgrounds or (apparatusless) playgrounds, maybe we should say. Does
that make sense to you?

(Allison Laughlin): Thank you that really helps. Yes, thanks.

(Bobby Crooks): Sure.

(Allison Laughlin): I called in twice so you might get my name next.

(Bobby Crooks): All right.

Coordinator: The next question (Carolyn Kiefer).

(Carolyn Kiefer): Hello. I have a lot experience with playgrounds in my
past life as a center director, not a Head Start center but another one.
And found that some of the best play and best learning occurred with
various amounts of water from a washtub and buckets...

(Bobby Crooks): Isn\'t that the truth.

(Carolyn Kiefer): ...paint brushes to the water that could be, you know,
carried and dumped and schlepped and all that sort of thing. For the
movement, for the balance, for all those things, healthy things for
children. And I wondered if you would comment on some of the better
water features that you have seen in both very small children as well as
preschool children?

(Bobby Crooks): Well I\'ve seen a lot of water features. The thing that
stands out in my mind is that first of all, the water feature requires a
lot of maintenance. And the ones that I have seen that work are really
new. And the older they get, they more they become just a play table. Or
they put rocks on them or they put something or marbles or something \--
not marbles because marbles go in the mouth \-- they end up being
something other than what they were originally intended.

(Carolyn Kiefer): Well see if I was thinking beyond just the water table
idea. This is where water can be, you know, carried. Like I said I\'ve
seen it from a large galvanized tub which is pretty low tech and simple
and not much maintenance.

(Bobby Crooks): That\'s exactly...

(Carolyn Kiefer): But two things where there\'s like small canals or
little ditches you might be able to (unintelligible)...

(Bobby Crooks): The...

(Carolyn Kiefer): ...wide and go down a concrete kind of concourse. But
with places for adding dirt and sand and rocks and floating things.

(Bobby Crooks): Yes exactly.

(Carolyn Kiefer): They\'re really good stuff.

(Bobby Crooks): It brings to mind one of the programs that I had a
wonderful experience with in Medford. I don\'t know if anyone is from
Medford is on line. But they opened a center I want to say Redwood
Center or that may not be the right name of it, Redwood or Cedar Wood or
something like that. I brand new -

And what they do have a water activity that they use. It\'s all natural.
It\'s almost like what you described. It\'s using all natural material.
And it has a recycling. And so there\'s not a constant need for water.
You know, in some areas we have water shortages and water is an issue.
So it has a recycling pool and a recycling mechanism.

But it\'s water that goes over rocks and sings. And it\'s a wonderful
activity and it\'s part of the playground. And it\'s been absolutely a
wonderful, natural, all natural. And as you said, very low key, very low
tech. They didn\'t even have buckets or tubs or anything. I mean this is
a pump is just there. And it just recycles the water and then they have
activities associated with that water mechanism.

I don\'t see a lot of them. A lot of programs stay away from them
because of the having to change clothes and, you know, the mess that
they could create and those kinds of things. But I definitely,
definitely like your idea. I think that\'s a wonderful idea. I\'d like
to hear more about it.

(Carolyn Kiefer): Well maybe at another time since there could be other
questions.

(Bobby Crooks): Okay. (Carole), where are you from? What town?

(Carolyn Kiefer): I\'m in Idaho. I\'m the Idaho Head Start Collaboration
Director. But I\'m a long time early childhood person and, you know,
have done the nitty gritty parts of it as well.

(Bobby Crooks): Right.

(Carolyn Kiefer): The other thing that I saw in some my experience was
that sometimes children, there were fewer accidents on the natural
material, the large rocks or carefully stacked stones for climbing than
there were on the, you know, man made kind of structures with their
smooth, powder coated purposes and such.

And I think maybe some of this that there\'s more of the tactile
stimulation, that neuro sensory development that occurs when children
have surfaces that have irregularities and roughness. And the importance
of having that as part of physical development.

(Bobby Crooks): Oh yes, I think you\'re exactly right. I think all of
that is a part of and should be taken into consideration in designing an
all natural playground. I think you\'re exactly right. One of the things
that we were - well I did a Head Start center in Salt Lake City.

And we spent a lot of time looking at rocks just, you know, boulders and
the placement of them. And, you know, how to use them to create climbing
areas and climbing materials without, you know, I mean you want to make
sure that you try to protect the child as much as possible. And we did.
And we did layout some uses zones around some of the natural materials.

But it worked out well. It worked out very well. And in looking back on
it and seeing how the children responded to it. You know, the program
spent a lot of money on the plastic stuff. But it seems like that
there\'s a very instinctive draw to the natural material. And you see a
lot of children just, you know, you go over there and they climb on
them. They sit on them. They play around them. And it\'s a very
comforting thing. It\'s fun to watch.

(Carolyn Kiefer): Well and I think you probably want the place to be
safe. You can\'t, I mean no self-respecting four year old wants
something that doesn\'t have a little bit of risk.

(Bobby Crooks): Self respecting, I like it.

(Carolyn Kiefer): How do you make it so that they can test themselves in
some ways against this without undue, you know, risk. But...

(Bobby Crooks): And I think in fact...

(Carolyn Kiefer): ...if it\'s always clean and it\'s always safe, it\'s
not usually very much fun.

(Bobby Crooks): ... That\'s right. And I was saying, I think you want. I
think you as a early child professional, you want to see the child
challenge themselves. You know, you want them to experience what their
limits and their boundaries are. Otherwise, they\'re never going to
know.

But again I agree. You know, as the adult we can see dangers and
concerns and prepare for those events where a child can\'t. So, you
know, using the use zone and the placement of....

(Carolyn Kiefer): Absolutely.

(Bobby Crooks): ...certain natural materials and those kind of things
that all becomes a part of our job as well as keeping the child
challenged and stimulated to be as creative with their own energy as
they possibly can.

Rob Colombini: (Bobby), this is Rob again. I noticed we\'ve reached our
hour on the call.

(Bobby Crooks): Oh.

Rob Colombini: I don\'t want to disregard any other questions. So I just
wanted to check in, (Julie), to see if there were any other questions
that were waiting to be asked?

Coordinator: We have one more question.

Rob Colombini: Okay.

Coordinator: Would you like to take that?

Rob Colombini: Please.

Coordinator: (Sarah Kuenzli), your line is open.

(Sarah Kuenzli) Hey good morning Rob and (Bobby). And this is (Sarah
Kinsley) and I live in Alaska in Fairbanks. And so I really do
appreciate everything that\'s been said and the ideas in the natural
environments. What our concern is being able to have outdoor play areas
that don\'t have, well they\'re going to have snow and ice which is not
appropriate for a fall zone.

And so I don\'t know if there are other alternatives other than taking
the swings down or blocking off the play structure and the kids play in
the snow berms which I agree is healthy. But, you know, there\'s just
not much you can do once there\'s snow and ice...

(Bobby Crooks): You know (Sarah)...

(Sarah Kuenzli) ...that\'s there for so long.

(Bobby Crooks): ...you really bring up a great point. And I had the
privilege of taking a summer course at Harvard in which we talked about,
you know, early child design. They invited a child design professional
from Denmark. And I don\'t know if you know anything about Denmark but
their climate...

(Sarah Kuenzli) Yes.

(Bobby Crooks): ...I would assume is going to be very, very, from the
pictures that I saw, their climate is very, very similar to yours.

((Sarah Kuenzli)): Yes.

(Bobby Crooks): And they did embrace the snow and they created snow
environments specifically designed to get the children out of the
classroom, into the snow environment.

((Sarah Kuenzli)): Yes.

(Bobby Crooks): And they had activities and they had structures
specifically designed for snow.

((Sarah Kuenzli)): Okay.

(Bobby Crooks): So it can be done.

((Sarah Kuenzli)): Okay.

(Bobby Crooks): I don\'t think that you\'re going to beat the weather.

((Sarah Kuenzli)): No.

(Bobby Crooks): But you can...

((Sarah Kuenzli)): Use it.

(Bobby Crooks): ...(unintelligible) as part of your design. And they did
it.

((Sarah Kuenzli)): Cool, okay.

(Bobby Crooks): And I\'ll be happy to share some of those slides with
you if you\'ll send me your email address or your mailing address.

(Sarah Kuenzli) I will do that (Bobby), thank you.

(Bobby Crooks): I\'ll probably have to mail them to you. But I\'d be
happy to share some of their ideas with you.

(Sarah Kuenzli) Cool, thanks.

(Bobby Crooks): Sure.

Rob Colombini: Thanks (Sarah), thanks (Bobby). We\'re at the end of our
conference call. Just so you know, we\'ll have a transcript of this
phone call and we\'ll be able to email that out to you. And also I think
part of that, (Bobby), if you don\'t mind, I\'ll be glad to give out
your contact information at the same time.

(Bobby Crooks): Oh that\'d be great.

Rob Colombini: So that way anybody can call you. But I do appreciate you
spending the time with us and giving some insight into what\'s happening
across the nation and some new ideas. So I appreciate that. So thank you
so much.

(Bobby Crooks): Thank you for the invitation everyone. And again, call
me or email me and I\'ll do whatever I can to respond.

Rob Colombini: Great. Thanks. (Julie), that\'s the end of our phone
call.

Coordinator: Thank you for participating in today\'s call. You may
disconnect at this time.

END