Marcus Phillips 1988 interview

Transcribed by Mary Kallenberg Park Volunteer Nov 9, 1996

"I" stands for person doing the interview

"MP" stands for Marcus Phillips talking

Names of places and persons are spelled as heard-not necessarily
correctly

Words which are not clearly understood are in brackets \[ \].

Tapes are identified by writing on the actual tape

Tape marked "Marcus Phillips 3" side A

I This is continuing our interview on April 18 1988 with Marcus
Phillips. Tell me about the old Gorge road.

MP The Gorge road was a very picturesque road. And after you got \[it
past\] the camp it began to ascend the side of the mountain and was very
high. It was winding and it followed the contour of the canyons, in and
out, and being on the ledge it was really somewhat dangerous because it
was quite a drop off, a bluff, on the ah, down the mountain from it in
case you lost control of a car. This road continued in use until about,
in the 30's, they began to build the gorge road where it is now. And had
to do a lot of blasting and I worked on that project and the engineer
was Frank Ellsworth the father of our late Mayor, no uncle of our late
Mayor Tom Ellsworth. And that was my first experience I guess with
surveying I sharpened stakes on that job and blasted a log and built the
road out through the gorge as it is now. Then after they built it, the
next project was to try to return the gorge road, the original road,
back to nature. Soil had to be hauled and more or less bucketed up the
side of the bluff and put on the road and grass sowed and trees and one
thing and another. And I worked on that project for some time. And I
hated to see that road done away with because it was so picturesque but
it was dangerous. I know one particular time when the Olesh theater set
the town on fire across from Bath House Row and it burnt out a block or
a block and a half of the city and there was a traffic jam and that was
about 1926, and a lot of the traffic to get back to North Hot Springs
went out the gorge and there was some pretty dangerous traveling at that
particular time. And probably a few things like that that convinced the
government that the thing to do was to put the road where it is now.

I Tell me about some of the other old roads and trails in the park

MP Well also the gorge road, of course, was what we call the Sleepy
Valley road at one time and of course the development of Sleepy Valley
there. The Quarry people used it a whole lot in working along Indian
Mountain and then the other mountain adjacent to it. The next roads to
be changed were of course the ones on West Mountain. Well at this
particular time they contracted the work out, most of it. And there was,
of course this was during the great depression in the early 30's and
there was a lot of unemployed people and the contractors agreed to pick
their men from the unemployed and they began to use this. Well test
holes were made to determine the type of surface they would have to
build over and the amount of expense involved in making the cuts because
this is Nevaculite and it's very hard rocks. The contracts were let and
of course the roads were built but some of the contractors folded up
because it was more of an expense building through that Nevaculite and
so far as I know that was about the last blasting that was done. Then
the old roads of course they too were turned back to nature. They were
filled with soil, grass planted , trees planted, and so on. And we have
the roads as they are now. I remember one instance that happened , now
they could blast at that time, now they don't blast anymore. But, to
blast and to make it safe, they would build a large raft out of pretty
good size poles, and they would lay that over these holes, and of course
they had the wires in and the battery system that they shoved the handle
on and it ignited and blasted. Well that was pretty safe. But one day
they wanted to make a quick blast. And at this particular time there was
the road coming up much of where it is now from Whittington Avenue but
also a road came up another street there that some called Gem Street.
And some called Brooks, Brooks and Gem Street. And of course Gem street
was named by the colored people that lived on it that owned a lot of
property and they also owned the old Gem, they named the Gem theater
after Gem Street. Ah, that was a colored owned theater on Malvin Avenue.
It was a very popular theater in its day because the Creole people came
up from Louisiana and put on Vaudeville and so on, but ah, the colored
people or black people maybe as I should say that lived along this
street, there's quite a few houses on it, well they got in a hurry to
make this blast and left the raft off of the.. and they threw a large
rock into the air and it sailed up, way up into the air, kind of like a
Howitzer cannon would shoot , and arched over and came down on Gem
street, hit into the roof of this house, fell down through the house and
hit the eating table where these people were around the table eating
dinner. After that George Bolton, if you recall him, made us a safety
tote. And he said when that huge \[dong\] hit that table, said it rained
people for 30 minutes. So that was one of the instances I remember about
the building and changing of those roads. And of course old Gem street
was closed, the government bought it out and the houses, of course the
people moved out of there and it became government property, and at that
time the government had been authorized to buy the houses along
Whittington, on the south side where the mountain drive approaches. Now
all of this, there was nice homes up and down that side and of course
they sold to the government and the government moved it and returned it
to nature. I helped do some of this. The government, the National Park
Service, had its own quarry where they quarried very beautiful rocks, I
never did go to the quarry. But they had one of the building on
Whittington we called the Government barn, ah and I worked on the
project when they built, added to this and built more buildings. And the
crew of men went out and quarried the rocks and then they built this
building. I think the most I had to do with the building of it was
mixing mortar. I helped dig back the bank to make room for this and of
course, as you know they are beautiful buildings, this beautiful stone
work. Then there was a street on Whittington just I would say east of
the government barns that went into their gravel pit. Now that has been
closed off. I worked in this gravel pit quite a bit. And they would take
gravel to make fills wherever the government would need pit gravel for
fill. I believe they called it the big Fort Church. And they operated
this for a long long time and then they bought the street that went to
it and Housley was a veterinarian that had his office and his animal
hospital there and the government bought this animal hospital and then
that street has been closed out. The other little streets were closed as
the government bought land. But coming back to the mountain roads that
were built, I didn't work on the mountain roads so much. Now they
employed men then to build the gutter with flag stone. And the National
Park supervised that work more or less itself and I think it had some
masons that were regularly employed that built some of those. Then they
had their nursery up Whittington that they were quite active with at one
time and their greenhouse. The most of the work that I did on the west
mountain was a special , a special appropriation was made to employ men
to change the trails. Now this is where I worked most of the time. The
trails that went through the Park Service then on West Mountain, you
would follow a trail and then to go up they would build a flight of
steps out of masonry. Well this was quite a climb and was very dangerous
in the winter time when it iced over. They reached a decision to do away
with those trails and build gradually trails that just followed the
contour and was not such a climb. So all of this masonry helped dig,
tear this away. And we built the trails where they are now. And one of
the things I remember in building those trails we approached a dump,
pretty good size dump. And of course we young men didn't know what it
was and we asked some of the older men and they said, well this is a
railroad dump where they started to build the cog railway up the
mountain. A man got a franchise, a company did, from the city of Hot
springs to start in at Court Street which was of course where it was
anticipated that a courthouse would be built. The government let them
have that block there to build a courthouse. It wasn't hardly considered
feasible because Court Street is so steep. Later it was subdivided again
into lots and of course west of it the Levi hospital is situated. But
right there in that vicinity is where they started constructing up the
side of the mountain through the National Park the cog railway that was
to come all the way to the top of the mountain up there about where the
drive is just west of where the lookout station is up there. And I asked
them about the cog railway, they never did complete it. And since I've
been employed by the city of Hot Springs I found where the city of Hot
Springs granted to them the franchise for a cog railway of course they
had to work with the federal government also, but I have on this map
where the cog railway was to start you see, and where it was to continue
on up there and here's your lookout station you see which would have
been quite a thing had they had the money to complete it and had there
been enough demand for it to, enough people using it for it to pay off
of course it might have in that day before the automobile, it might have
been a paying thing. And that dump I'm sure is still visible and maybe
the park workers the men no doubt know about that dump they may not know
the history of it, but sometime Jeff and I may go up there and look it
over. But it would have been something nice had it been completed.
Besides building the trails, I helped build some trails where Canyon
street use to be east of Central Avenue. Canyon Street went east of
Central Avenue there by the DeSoto Hotel. And Mountain Drive went up
that mountain on up to the top of it and make a circuit there and
connected with the mountain drive that came off of Ramble street that
was called the North Mountain Drive and in turn they connected with the
tower. The National Park Service decided to do away with that road. And
I helped do away with that road and of course we would slope the bank,
and in those days in order to employ a lot of men they did not use
machinery, machinery was in vogue of course at that time but there was a
huge unemployment- (another voice is heard in the background but not
understood)-the great depression in the 30's. Now this was about 1938
when I started to work on that and I worked on through 39, 40 and into
41, as an employee, of course not of the National Park Service but of
the appropriations that were made. The National Park Service would make
applications, the government would appropriate money and the National
Park Service of course would supervise the work but they would pick men
out from the employees to be sub-foremen and Mr. Huey, who one time I
understand, now you can check the records on this, I think one time he
was a supervisor with the National Park Service but he was retired at
that time but he came out of retirement and supervised us on this
construction. And all these projects that I've been mentioning of
building new trails and doing away with old trails, Mr. Huey was the
supervisor over it. And of course George Bolton was then here and I
believe the ,am I right in saying at that time Mr. Libby probably was
the other man. And there was a nice home on Fountain Street where George
Boldton lived. We destroyed Canyon Street and the Mountain Drive. And as
we came on down and approached this edge of town close to the hotel, we
put some huge stone in there and blocked it, so people couldn't go on up
with their vehicles and whatever trails were built were built in other
places. But I know when we finished this the supervisor looked at it and
he said that's not right , that looks like someone put that stone in
there. He said we want the stone put in there where it looks like nature
put them in. So we put them in then, changed them very irregular, and
put them in. And that was the end Canyon Street and the drive from
Canyon Street, the Canyon Drive some people called it.

I Did you ever hear them say why they wanted to quit using that road
entrance?

MP I never did hear why. I think that one thing probably, with so many
roads there was a lot of trouble patrolling them as automobiles
increased and people were maybe inclined to throw out trash and other
things you see. And of course they improved the roads that they decided
to retain. I helped build trails around near the tower. And break up the
concrete and we made some changes there at lookout station. Of course
they built the park there where they had the sunrise service. I can't
think of any other attractions that I helped do. Now they built
buildings. Also I helped on the project where we dug a ditch all the way
from Whittington Avenue and laid a pipe line up to the lookout station
on west mountain.

I For a water line?

MP Yes, ma'am for the water there. Drinking water and for the restroom
facilities. I about forgot about that project and that was quite a
project. We dug it by hand. A ditcher could have dug it easily enough
you know, but it was dug by pick and shovel.

I Do you remember the other old roads on West Mountain, that went up by
the Mountain Valley, what is now the Mountain Valley water building?

MP Let me think just a minute. The Mountain Valley Water building? Oh,
yes. Well now that was Canyon Street on the west side and that
zig-zagged when you got up there. The trail it just went in a
serpentine.

I Was that suppose to be for cars?

MP Mostly for horseback riders. And that's about all that could use it.
Now in the old days there was a house up there and some private land.
And people used that to get into their home. I've past by and seen the
smoke going out of the chimney in wood burning days. And the government
bought that place and demolished the house. Back..I don't believe the
whole house... I believe that was after World War II when that old house
was torn down. So as long as that house was up there it had to stay
open. And when they bought that property out they could close it out. Of
course they've had some nice [walls]{.underline}. Now another project
that I worked on after World War II we had a terrific water shortage,
had some droughts. And of course the pipeline were laid from the
reservoirs on top of the mountain that I've been describing, the big
tanks. Came on down Cliff Street and came to the hub of Cliff and Pine
and Amber Streets where they come together and came to Pine Street, and
crossed Pine Street near the Presbyterian...and crossed Wheaton near the
Presbyterian Church off of Pine. From that point on we had to get
permission form the National Park Service to lay this large water line.
And of course it was being crowded because it was really an emergency
on, it was a drought then and we were having droughts every summer and a
lot of the hotels had their own deep wells. And a few of the times
instead of getting cold water they got hot water. And of course the Army
Navy hospital had it's deep wells, you just simply had to have it. The
hospitals had to have them because of emergencies. And the National Park
Service gave them the permit to do this, we put it underground, we put
the soil and everything back like it was. And we had to cross Canyon in
one place and there had to be an undergirding of steel, now here we're
on National Park Service land, that's why I'm telling you this, and had
to lay stone on top of it to give it a natural look. And finally we came
to Whipperwhill Street. When we came we came around the mountain we came
to this home site I was telling you about, and when we got to
Whipperwhill Street, of course we were on a street that had been
dedicated by National Park Service, their monuments are along there, and
we came down Whipperwhill Street with this pipeline, now that's about
all the good that it's ever been to the city. And then of course we
approached the city property, proper down at Exchange Street there. But
this is another project that we built across government property. Of
course we could not blast. And we came through some very very hard flint
and Nevaculiet. And all they could use was jackhammers. They could use
jackhammers and this was really some job. Day after day I watched them
with the jackhammers and make such little progress you know in some
places in laying this pipeline. Specially when they left
\[Winston\]Avenue and went up the side of the mountain there, between
the Presbyterian church and St. Mary's church, up the side of the
mountain there. I believe that's the last time, the last hitch that I
had working on National Park Service land, as I remember.

I Near the bath, the Whittington area in general, where the National
Park Service has it's little area, what's your earliest recollection of
what was there?

MP Well my earliest recollection there.. of course there's an artesian
well out there in the park. I don't think it comes up like it at one
time did because of the water table. Then there's also a little swamp
close to where the Mountain Drive comes in. I remember, the people of
course liked to take walks in this, I remember the Nursery that was in
the Whittington Park, I do not, I'm not old enough to remember the lakes
they had, they had done away with the lakes when I came along, at least
in memory. The trolley cars, you see in your old days if you'll notice,
if you look on a map , the original lay out of the town, the boulevard
there, the streets are very serpentine in formation and still that way
on one side. and if you wonder why the streets are so wide in one place
and so narrow in others well one time they had the same width because
both side of the street ran parallel. But to put the trolleys there and
to work it out with the city and with the government part of the time
the trolley would be on city and part of the time on government, well
then they had to lay it out straight. And I remember the trolleys going
up Whittington Park and of course Whittington Park was the show place of
the town. When I was a child and when the trolleys cars were taken up of
course the National Park Service, the city sold out or gave out, it
transferred any ownership it had to the National Park Service so that
side of Whittington, of the streets are very straight, opposed to the
other side that so serpentine. That was a direction of course we always
went to go to the park that the city laid out. And there was
some...the.. this was in cooperation with the people that owned both the
old water company before the Hot Springs bought it out and the
government and of course the city of Hot Springs And they called them
lipptydips in those days, there's another name for them now. What was it
you called them?

I Rollercoasters?

MP Rollercoasters, ok, they had those up there. The track I'm pretty
sure were build out of the old track where the mules had pulled the
street cars. And of course when they put in the electric cars which is
what I remember they had better track. But they could use that track for
the rollercoaster. And now we're off of the... but we're where the park
has bought, the park owns as part of the property now. The rollercoaster
went... it was just beyond the alligator farm, just west of it in that
open area where the fine arts building is now. But it went way over
towards the park, I don't think it got...it might be on some of what the
park owns now. But over the tree tops and through the woods. I rode that
one time. The girl I was with enjoyed the ride very much, but I promised
the Lord that that would be my last ride, and I kept that promise. But
anyway it was really dangerous, the thing finally had to be condemned
and torn down. Of course just beyond it was the ostrich farm. Now in the
old days the celebration would last about three days at the fourth of
July, they had the dancing pavilion there, they had an old theater
there, and the arcade and other things. And up Whittington Park is my...
I can remember my... the first Ice cream cone I remember, I was about 3
years old. And the woods, you could tramp in behind there, on what is
now the National Park Service property. Because they bought property
that surrounds it, you were on a part of it then, and you're hiking
around there. Of course they a little zoo. They had the red barn, the
big red barn where on about the second floor was the dance hall and the
bottom floor was where they kept the horses I spoke about that they
rented. And there was something else on the third floor that I don't
recall. Anyway, that's now housing development and then just north of it
the National Park Service has bought it and they have bought the Kempner
Homestead which of course they could homestead at that time because you
were out of the reservation. And they had a beautiful home there also
and a big gazebo that a hall went to it where they could eat in the
summer time, hot weather. And on up at the end of the Whittington Park
that the government now owns a lot of people lived. And of course right
after world war II they had a housing development by the Veterans
Administration and of course there was one model house built there. It
never did develop and the National Park Service owns all of that. Now as
far as remembering... Now one thing that I remember that was on park
ownership was the bandstand or gazebo just as you approach the first
greenway there. You probably know that there was a bandstand there. And
they would play the band there and of course they had the bicycle
race.....end of tape

Tape marked " 3 & 4" side B

First part of this side of tape is a repeat from other side starting
from "and you were on a part of it then and you're hiking around there.
Of course they had a little zoo.." Transcribing started where other side
of tape stopped.

MP And they would play the band there and of course they had the bicycle
races which went around the park. It was on public property but at the
same time it was surrounding the greenways that belonged to the National
Park Service. There was a parking place there also for the trolley cars
because they would have to put in extra trolley cars in those days to
carry the people up to the park, and they would be parked there and the
band would be there. The government more or less, instead of having of
course any amusement themselves on what they owned other just
beautification, the city and private interests ran the entertainment
part which was slightly off of government land. And where the Wyehouser
offices are just beyond them was the ball park. Now back this way
probably on what was government land was livery stables. And apartment
houses in the old days and the government has bought that up.
Fitzsimmon-Corbit fight up there. Thought they'd have \[blank and
Sullivan\] fight there but they ruled them out you know, in the old days
I heard the old timers talk about it. (small talk about the recorder
working) Of course the most that I remember about the Gum Springs Park
is the old ruins that had been left there because when the city began to
develop the Whittington Park and other private interests like the
Alligator Farm and Ostrich Farm, the Gum Springs Park was more or less
over shadowed. Now I'll get it The reason I brought this book along,
somewheres in it, and I haven't found it yet, is the manager. The man
that lived up there was in the census records, he gave his occupation as
being the manager of the Gum Springs Park. And I've never talked with
any of the old timers about what all they did have in Gum Springs Park
other than swimming, I think the swimming is probably what kept it alive
as long as it did. I will though look up some of the old timers and try
to get you more information on Gum Springs.

I Where did the road to it enter?

MP When you go up, going up Whittington, just before you come to the
Wyrhouser offices, you turn to the right and then you come to the little
streams, almost dried up now, the water level is down, and you go up the
little valley there, and have a little road up that, and have a little
road up on the ridge. And the Jamisons owned, their land is above that,
where their trailer park is. And so much of that was laid out and
expected to be used for Park purposes until they could own something
that the owners of Gum Springs Park owned. But I believe this is about
all I can recall about Gum Springs.

I When was it most popular?

MP Well, it was before any of the other, because when the government
laid out Hot Springs in 1876 and 77 and 78, the commission laid it out,
then the city immediately began to develop a park, the baseball park and
the dancing pavilion and other things. Now I think there was a dancing
pavilion in the Gum Springs Park, but I think then was when it's
competitions began, so it existed, I'm thinking right now out of the top
of my head, that it existed prior to that time. Of course the city was
able to, it and the people it leased to, was able to put in more
attractions, then a trolley cars went right up past the city park, to
park you see, and carried the passengers that way. I can't think of any
other interests right around there, there were other enterprises began,
of course the ostrich farm was quite an enterprise. I know, I was
talking to the man that was raised there, Eddy Colburn, and he said on
special occasions there had been as many as700 people went through the
ostrich farm in a day, and that's a lot of people when you get back in
the horse and buggy days. Let's see, you might ask me another question
if you can think of one. (pause). Where Gum Springs is, I'll be talking
while you're... The county bought some lots just to the east of it, and
which was their gravel pit, and they leveled out a lot of that big \[far
chirt\] in their gravel pit, which was of course was part of the Hot
Springs reservation.

I That's the pit that's still there as you turn right towards the
warehouse?

MP Yes ma'am. Leaving the Gum Springs and the park that was on
Whittington and the different attractions they had in the old days,
going on west of Whittington Avenue of course becomes the Black Snake
Road and winds it's way over the Sugar Loaf Mountain. A little ways
farther there was a homestead and a \[nole\] mine where a man dug for
gold. And it was \[paratese of iron\] but he jumped down in the hole and
killed himself when he found there wasn't anything to it. But if you
follow the road on up to the top of the mountain and of course there you
cross a trail that follows the comb of the mountain and going down the
Black Snake Road and it had it's right name, if you then take to the
left down the Bull Bayou Road there's an old trail goes up the Bull
Bayou to the Buffalo Lakes that the Indians and the trappers followed,
shot and killed buffalo at these lakes, but going down the Bull Bayou
Road and turning off of it , crossing the bayou, you get on the Music
Mountain Road which is on National Park property. Near this road is a
trail that came off the old Cedar Glades Road, it came around the ridge
of the mountains, the horseback riders used this and also the people
that lived on the old Cedar Glades Road at the Colored community, where
Aunt Nancy Green lived and the Colored cemetery is located, they would
follow this road and go to the Colored community that was at the end of
Black Snake Road. I might tell you the end of Black Snake Road is, it
crosses Bull Bayou Road and crosses the Mountain Pine hiway, goes to
Crystal Hill, turns south and comes out at Greenwood Church, which is a
Black church, and of course this 16^th^ section there was settled by the
Black people, it was a school owned section of land, which the
government gave every 16^th^ section to the school and Black people
bought and turned it into farms. So the Black Snake Road was used by the
Black community on Whittington, I say this because the government, the
National Park Service bought up a lot of the homesites that the Black
community owned. And this was the road those two communities stayed in
touch with each other on. But if you turn, as I started to say a few
moments ago on the Bull Bayou Road, and then turned left and get on the
Music Mountain Road, you're near the trail that they followed to go to
the Sour Rock Spring. And the Sour Rock Spring is just off the
government land a little ways. This was also a horseback riding road.
And Edna Mae Biggerstaff bought this land. And she laid out a Music
Mountain subdivision and she laid it out in about four phases, I think
there's about four different little subdivisions in there and quite a
few people have bought in there. Then of course the Boofoo Heights
subdivision is in there. And the government has been buying in that
direction. In fact they bought... The railroad was built from the old
diamond, the old Memphis Dallas and \[Goth\] railroad which went from
Hot Springs west towards Glennwood and the Missouri Pacific built the
road off of that road, the Memphis Dallas and \[Goth\] railroad was
abandoned and they used the trackage and laid it through the Music
Mountain area, of course it wasn't Music Mountain at that time, but it
is where the government, the National Park, is extending its lines and
stopping at that point, near the tracks. Well in the old days, it has
always been in Arkansas against the law to have rooster fights, but they
would take their game, chickens, out there and hide back in those
recesses and hold their rooster fights away from the law. And then, this
borders the beginnings of the Flatwoods which is out of the government,
National Park property and also the National Park property borders
property and probably owns some of the property that was a part of the
old county farm that existed there and the old cemeteries there. And
Garland county kept that as a place for elderly people and also a lot of
people that seemingly just couldn't stay afloat. Went out there on the
county farm, so to some extent it was a poor farm also and they operated
that for many years.

I Where was that?

MP Well, it lay on either side of the tracks through there. The
government owns a portion of it, a little portion of it and that's why I
brought in the county farm. The land that they cultivated would actually
be on the west side of the bayou in the flatlands there was what they
cultivated for land, but they had their homes along there on either side
and their orchards and so on. And of course we're out of the government,
National Park boundary a little a bit they had their dancing pavilion
there and many other things and this was the beginning of course of the
Flatwoods, but a lot of the people that were considered part of the
Flatwoods community lived on what is now government owned land. And
then.....

I When was this started, the county farm?

MP The county farm. Well, it was started right after Garland became a
county, in 1873. And it was sold out sometime before WW I, the land was
sold, I don't think they were even using it as a county farm at that
time. I've seen a list of all the merchandise and things that they had
to sell there at this place,. But then, some of the land in the National
Park was homesteaded by women. Now many times in the old days land was
homesteaded by women because if a man was a certain amount of Indian
blood he was not eligible to homestead. So the land that Edna Mae bought
had been, way back, homesteaded by women, Then there was some mines
operated in that area, Dr. Howsly, Boes Housley, operated a mine in
there, or owned a mine and had some people operating it for him. But
like many other mines, of no consequence, they looked for gold and they
looked for silver and they looked for other minerals. And the National
Park Service owns quite a bit of land where they mined for gold and
other minerals. This is the most that I know about Music Mountain except
after the time Edna Mae developed it. The Bulls Bayou itself which is
close to bordering government land in some places, there's many stories
about how it got its name. Of course one story told by the pioneers is
that a couple of bull buffalos fought themselves to the death there. But
probably the most plausible story since it's called bayou, is it was
originally the Bayou Bulls named by the French because it expanded its
banks it's such a tremendous water shed and the trappers, the French
trappers did work up and down that stream. And they count, the French
trappers were in and around what is now owned by the National Park
Service in those days and of course they had all the streams named with
French names. Coming back then to another project I worked on with the
National Park Service in the gorge where the gorge campground is. When
polio got so bad, this is a story that I got, that they had decided to
destroy the dam and I helped tear down the dam, and they did away with
it.

I What year was this?

MP All right, this was about 39 when I worked on that project and 40, 39
or 40, I believe, I believe it was in 40, the winter of 40. And just
upstream form the amphitheater was a wide place in the road and there
was a spring ran out of the mountain and many people use to park there
and drink that water and that's been kept over. Of course the..... I
can't think of any.... Of course there was the iron spring. Also near
where the swimming pool was, was a trail that run west through the
canyon there and I remember a lot of people all through the day walked
that trail.

I Even the.... Someone had told me that the city use to own that
property where the swimming pool was and then later gave it to the park.

MP Well, they may have. Now Colonel Fordyce gave the chamber of commerce
the property over there where the quarries are and that was given to the
National Park Service and the city may have had some little park there
that they gave to the government. The government had done considerable
expansion. The road was changed and a new approach was built to the
park, where it is now. There use to be a different approach into the
National Park.. Across from the gorge entrance, staying on the gorge
road, all of that huge bank there was blasted off to swing the road
farther away from the campground. I believe that the government bought a
part of what was the transit camp, is that right? Where the school has
some offices and the government has some offices? The transit camp was
built probably around 34 and 35. And people stayed in that and were
bussed to the government bathhouse where they took their treatments and
bathed. And they detained them there as you can see a fence around it.
Well the government has bought in next to that. You might stop it if you
want....

I I want to ask you... Earlier when you were mentioning that Colonel
Fordyce had let the state use his pond for fish hatchery, could you say
more about that?

MP I don't know a lot about that. I have some notes on it. But I can't
remember them, I'll bring them down. Now anything I that have notes on
I'll bring to you and we'll or I'll make a copy of them and bring them
to you. I have some notes. I'm more or less talking out of top of my
head right now. Of course he built the old mill there, the water mill
that you see, below that which is on government land. I believe the
government has bought the homesite on the hill haven't they?

I Not yet.

MP They haven't bought that yet? I use to go there, I went there when I
was a boy, and they had a tennis court up there, he had a lot of things
up there. Mr. Moreland, who was one time city engineer, lived there and
seen after that for Colonel Fordyce. Colonel Fordyce would go out and
explore Indian trails and as I said a little while ago, when we were
talking about him, he would get old maps or buy old maps from people and
look for buried treasures. Sometimes he's find old guns and things like
that. Of course he found a lot of Indian relics and collected those
together. He wrote an article when Hot Springs celebrated it's 50 year
centennial. I remember the centennial in 1932, the National Park
centennial, the state centennial, yes in 1936, 1919 along there Colonel
Fordyce wrote an article on Indian trails for the state. It went
in...well he wrote it for the Arkansas Gazette. It went into their
publication at that time.

I While we've got a little tape left, tell me what you remember about
the celebration in 1932 for the parks anniversary.

MP That was one of the greatest parades that I've ever seen. To me it
was greater than anything they put on TV, like the Orange Bowl parade,
or anything like that. Everybody went all out, the National Park went
all out. And of course the Army Navy hospital was in operation and they
went all out. The citizens went, everybody participated in it and of
course the bands, the Army Navy band paraded in that and the soldiers
that were stationed here, the Army and Navy were in that parade. And
then of course they had people from Little Rock and floats from
different parts of the state were in the parade. Then they had floats
that depicted the pioneers and the early settlers, the hunters and all
of this was in the parade. And one thing I remember that the band from
the Army Navy hill went down and played in the \[Como\] Square and as
they played in-between intervals for changes in the music the director
would shoot a pistol up in the air. I'm sure it was a blank pistol. And
then they danced the Virginia Reel in front of the Arlington Hotel.
People stood in the Arlington park there which is government land and
watched the dancing of the Virginia Reel. Of course I remember when
Roosevelt came to Hot Springs and he rode right down the sidewalk in
front of bathhouse row off the mountain. And when he got off the train,
was put in the car, Mcgaulton was expecting to ride with the president.
And he ...presidential guards wouldn't let him, they put him in a
different car. So they toured the mountain where the tower was, went up
this route and they came down off the mountain, and the people stayed in
the street. And of course there was no traffic. And the street in front
of the Arlington hotel was filled up with people. It was on a hot day
and people actually fainted right there in the crowd. And it was lined
up with guards, everywhere. And of course when they brought the
president down along with the motorcade it came right along the wide
sidewalk in front of bath house row. And the children over in the
Arlington park, as we called it, I don't know whether you call it
Arlington park now or not' but anyway they were putting on a pageant.
And the motorcade stopped long enough for Roosevelt to view the pageant
that was being put on and then he came on down the sidewalk area and
back and went on out of course to Couchwood for dinner and then
worshipped at the Rockport Methodist Church at Rockport which is the
oldest church in this state. That's..ah.. I remember when we had also
the saga of waters that played in the park when we celebrated the coming
of DeSoto in 1941. There was quite a... The National Park Service went
all out during that time. Any other questions?

I What did the Park Service do for this celebration?

MP Well, using this, setting up their props and everything for them to
put on the pageant there in the park. And just what their own personnel
did I really don't know. I know the schools, each one put on a play. And
of course they had Indians parading up and down the streets and the
school boys painted red, beating tom-toms up and down the streets, I
remember all that part. It was quite an occasion, but I can't recall
just what the ... other than the park displays they had here.

I They had put on plays down there in Arlington Park?

MP Yes ma'am they used it for their plays. And they would put on other
little acts in different parts of the town. Back when the hospital was
here, of course there was quite a bit of participation with that phase
of the government operation. The old Reynold bath house as I remember
the name of it. It was build like a, almost to me like a \[Mohammed
mosque\] . Was right over here on the sidewalk when I was a boy. Was a
beautiful thing.

I \[The Imperial?\]

MP Yes ma'am. Yes ma'am. I believe that was the name of it. They tore it
down about the time they built this museum or remodeled this museum here
I think. Of course they moved this fountain, they've moved this fountain
I don't know how many times but I think it's last resting place is up
where it is now, but I've drank from the fountain when it was down here.
And back then they would...they don't permit that anymore but of all the
people to be standing around that hot water fountain there would be a
fellow standing there and he'd stand up past the curb in the street, and
preach. They don't have that anymore. But one time they had a \[ruckus\]
but I think that the government let the city handle the problem, a
couple of preachers got on each others time preaching there and one hung
around shaking hands with people beyond the time when the other one was
to start ...end of this side of tape

tape marked " Marcus Phillips 4 end" side A

MP (first word or two I cannot understand)...place on Government
territory you see there and when they got it down in the city court well
(laughter ) the Judge signed it by having each preacher to get out and
pray and each one prayed that the Lord would forgive the other one for
the sins he had committed (laughter) You can tell I've run out of
anything to talk about. (Laughter). But go ahead and ask me some other
questions that might be on your mind, I'm willing to come back if we, if
you say we're running out of time.

I Yeah, I can't think of anything else right now. If you think of
anything else that , you know , that you want...

MP OK, ah

I that would be pertinent on the part, we can call back, set up another
time, we're scheduled to have these machines through the end of May...

MP Yes, ma'am. Well I was tied up kind of yesterday and I didn't prepare
anything and I've got some notes and things that, but I have moving men
filing a lot of materials that I have and I've got it scattered around
and I might have been better prepared to have something, but I might
think of something that occurred on Park property later on that you
would be interested in. If I did I'll try to put enough of it together
to make up a tape and come up here. End of this side of tape.

Tape marked "Marcus Phillips end 1" side B

MP....then it, ah, meandered over the mountain into Walnut Valley. It
went through Walnut Valley and crossed 7 hiway just south of Mountain
Valley community. And you can see the road coming in there. Now that
trail is one of the oldest in the country and it went on through what is
now Hot Springs Village, am I on the subject?, and it went on through
what is now Lake Wyona on the Salane River which is the Little Rock
water supply, that is at least one of the lakes of the Little Rock water
supply, and it went on and connected with a hub of trails near Moralton
or at that time Old Lewisburg, or Candron, up there there's several
Indian trails in the old days came in that the Indians and the French
trappers used. Then there was another trail that turned off of it....
end of tapeMarcus Phillips 1988 interview