Archived Information

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1 THE SECRETARY\'S COMMISSION

2 ON

3 OPPORTUNITY IN ATHLETICS

4 CHICAGO TOWN HALL MEETING

5 THE DRAKE HOTEL

6 140 EAST WALTON PLACE

7 CHICAGO, ILLINOIS 60611

8 (312) 787-2200

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10 SEPTEMBER 18, 2002 - WEDNESDAY

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12 9:00 o\'clock a.m.

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L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

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4 OPENING REMARKS BY TED LELAND\...\...\...\...\...\... 3

5 INTRODUCTION OF COMMISSIONERS\...\...\...\...\...\... 3

6 BRIEF OUTLINE BY TEL LELAND\...\...\...\...\...\..... 5

7 BRIED COMMENTS BY CYNTHIA COOPER\...\...\...\...\... 11

8 SUBCOMMITTEE DETAILS BY TED LELAND\...\...\...\.... 13

9 SUBCOMMITTEE BREAKOUT SESSION\...\...\...\...\...\... 17

10 REPORT FROM SUBCOMMITTEE ONE\...\...\...\...\...\.... 54

11 REPORT FROM SUBCOMMITTEE TWO\...\...\...\...\...\.... 59

12 REPORT FROM SUBCOMMITTEE THREE\...\...\...\...\..... 68

13 CLOSING COMMENTS BY TED LELAND\...\...\...\...\..... 73

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L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

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1 MR. LELAND: I would like to bring the

2 meeting to order.

3 First of all, let\'s start off this

4 morning. We are now and formally in session and

5 welcome everyone to the second day of our public

6 meetings here in Chicago.

7 I thought we had a great day

8 yesterday and made a lot of progress. Because

9 of the physical layout here and the small little

10 name tags we have, let me start off by asking

11 all of the commissioners \-- we\'ll go around

12 clockwise, I guess, it is, and ask all of them

13 to identify themselves so the general public

14 can get some idea of who or whom we are.

15 I\'m Ted Leland, director of

16 athletics at Stanford University.

17 MS. COOPER: I\'m Cynthia Cooper,

18 former head coach of the WNBA and former

19 player.

20 MR. BATES: Percy Bates, faculty

21 athletic rep, University of Michigan.

22 MS. FOUDY: Julie Foudy, soccer player

23 or something like that, water girl.

24 MS. de VARONA: Donna de Varona,

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

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1 co-chair of women\'s \-- co-chair United States

2 Olympic Committee, Government Relations Committee.

3 MS. SIMON: I\'m Rita Simon. I\'m a

4 professor at American University in the law school

5 and school of public affairs.

6 MS. STROUP: I\'m Sally Stroup. I\'m

7 the assistant secretary for post-secondary education

8 at the United States Department of Education.

9 MR. JONES: I\'m Brian Jones, the

10 general counsel for the U.S. Department of

11 Education.

12 MR. REYNOLDS: My name is Jerry

13 Reynolds. I am the assistant secretary for the

14 Office of Civil Rights for the Department of

15 Education.

16 MR. SPANIER: Graham Spanier,

17 president of Penn State University.

18 MS. McGRAW: Muffet McGraw, women\'s

19 basketball coach, University of Notre Dame.

20 MS. GROTH: Cary Groth, athletic

21 director of Northern Illinois University.

22 MR. GRIFFITH: Tom Griffith, assistant

23 to the president and general counsel of Brigham

24 Young University.

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1 MS. KEEGAN: Lisa Keegan, CEO of the

2 Educational Leaders Council in Washington.

3 MS. PRICE: Debbie Price, and I\'m the

4 executive director for the Commission.

5 MR. LELAND: Well, thank you. Welcome

6 everyone.

7 Just to lay some ground rules out,

8 under the Federal Advisory Committee Act, that\'s

9 under the federal statute in which we\'re working,

10 today\'s meeting will be open to the public, but the

11 public will not have an opportunity to participate.

12 So all of our \-- the objective

13 here is to make our deliberations transparent and

14 open to the public, yet I think they need to be

15 between the commissioners. We do have a couple more

16 meetings; one in Colorado Springs and one in San

17 Diego where there will be a chance for public input

18 and we look forward to input at that time.

19 Of course, again, I\'ll make the

20 offer that anyone who wishes to submit written

21 documents to the Commission can and there are

22 assurances that they will be passed out to all

23 of the Commission members.

24 I want to start off by sort of

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1 just outlining the way we see today working \-- when

2 I say \"we,\" I mean Cynthia and myself. I\'m going

3 to make some briefly introductory comments here sort

4 of on the process and then Debbie will introduce a

5 staff person that we are bringing on to help us

6 write the report. Then Cynthia will have some

7 comments generally about what the report might

8 look like or what the finished product might look

9 like, I should say.

10 Then my hope is to go around the

11 commissioners and make sure that if there\'s any

12 issues that they want to bring up regarding the

13 process so far and any piece of information that

14 they haven\'t gotten so that we can get that from \--

15 input from the Commission.

16 Then our \-- we will break up into

17 subcommittees, which we have already identified and

18 the committee commissioners have already agreed to

19 serve on, and we will have one table here, one table

20 here, and one table there. The idea is that those

21 subcommittees, which have been sort of assigned

22 questions out of the Commission charge to help us

23 answer, those subcommittees will meet for about two

24 hours. Then our hope is to get back here at noon

L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292

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1 and then move forward from there and kind of check

2 and see where we are and adjourn at 1:00 o\'clock.

3 The one forbearance that I ask

4 from the general public today is that we weren\'t

5 quite as organized as we should have been regarding

6 the setup. I shouldn\'t say that, but I sort of \--

7 let\'s put it this way, I sort of changed our mind

8 on how we\'re going to do this thing early this

9 morning. So when we set up into three

10 subcommittees, we may need to physically move chairs

11 around and stuff.

12 It won\'t be as smooth of a

13 transition as you\'ve seen maybe in other places,

14 but we do \-- because of the sort of spirit of

15 the federal regulations under which this Commission

16 has been charged, I want the public to be able to

17 listen to the subcommittee deliberations, but we\'re

18 physically not set up in a way that \-- that\'s

19 going to make that easy. So we\'re just going to

20 ask everybody to try to be as comfortable and

21 convenient with each other as you possibly can.

22 I think we\'re still in the

23 process of gathering information. We\'re still in

24 the listening stage. This morning, as the \-- as

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1 we have more opportunity to do that, as I said

2 earlier, we\'re \-- we shouldn\'t, I don\'t think, be

3 in a position of reaching conclusions at this stage

4 and I think one of the concerns that many of the

5 commissioners have had, and myself specifically,

6 is how do you \-- at such a public hearing, how do

7 you have a fair intellectual debate?

8 How do you answer the tough \--

9 ask the tough questions and how do you put out

10 alternative answers without being, you know, sort

11 of painted into a corner publicly or with your

12 fellow commissioners. So I ask not only the

13 commissioners, but the general public and also

14 the press to be careful about attributing positions

15 to people simply because they ask a question and

16 be careful about attributing opinions to people

17 because they offer alternatives.

18 You know, coming from a \-- working

19 on a university campus for the last 30 years, I\'m

20 very used to intellectual banter where crazy ideas

21 are put out and they are talked about and thought

22 about and either discarded or accepted and we\'re

23 used to that process on a campus. I don\'t know how

24 it works in a situation like this, but I do know

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1 that if we\'re going to meet our charge and if we\'re

2 going to do the best job we can for the sports

3 community in America, we need to be able to ask

4 the difficult questions and offer alternative

5 and maybe controversial solutions without being

6 stereotyped in a way that it limits debate. I

7 think it\'s going to be very difficult for us to

8 do it again.

9 Again, as I said earlier, this

10 is a work in progress for me and for Cynthia. We\'ve

11 not done this before. It will be interesting to

12 see how it goes, but I do \-- my biggest concern

13 right now is that we have a Commission that\'s very

14 willing to learn and listen, we have a Commission

15 that\'s very willing to tackle tough issues, but

16 it\'s in a \-- we\'re going to be operating a little

17 bit in the fish bowl and I want to make sure that

18 we\'re able to operate in the best interest of our

19 clients, which is the athletic community in America.

20 So I sort of wanted to make some

21 opening statements and I\'ll turn it over to Debbie

22 Price from the Department of Education who will talk

23 a little bit about what the written report might

24 look like.

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1 MS. PRICE: Actually, I\'m going to

2 introduce the commissioners Jay Diskey. Jay, would

3 you stand just a second? I don\'t know how many of

4 you have had an opportunity to meet him as we had

5 breakfast or lunch or whatever.

6 Jay has been hired to be our

7 outside editor. He will be working with all of you

8 taking drafts, taking your input and forming it

9 into a readable, legible document, from all of those

10 perspectives.

11 Jay is the president of Diskey &

12 Associates, which is a Washington-based consulting

13 firm and he has worked with many of the departments

14 in working with the different commissions \-- various

15 commissions and as an editor in their report

16 writing. He basically will take all of our input

17 and pull it together and, as I said, put it in

18 intelligible and readable form. He is a great

19 person for that. He has done a good job with it.

20 Most recently, he just put the

21 finishing touches on the report for the Special

22 Education Commission, the White House initiative \--

23 the White House Commission. So Jay will be working

24 with you all and he may be sitting in a little bit

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1 at each of the subcommittee tables today, but he

2 will be participating.

3 That\'s Jay. Jay?

4 MR. LELAND: Oh, stand up, Jay, so

5 everybody can see you. Thank you for your help.

6 MS. COOPER: Thanks, Jay.

7 Now, I want to talk about some

8 thoughts on how we should go about the business of

9 producing this final report. I\'m going to go right

10 down my list because I want to be very clear on what

11 I\'m talking about.

12 As the Secretary of Education and

13 other administration officials told us at our first

14 meeting, they do not want or expect any particular

15 result from the Commission\'s report. The President

16 and the Secretary asked us to serve the country by

17 carefully studying the issues and listening to all

18 witnesses with an open mind. Of course, that \-- we

19 haven\'t finished that. Again, as Ted said, that\'s a

20 work in progress.

21 The president and the secretary

22 have expressed their trust in us as commissioners

23 and simply want to learn from our expert analysis of

24 these issues. From dealing with other commissions,

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1 the secretary has learned that there are some

2 procedural issues that are very important.

3 With regard to the Commission\'s

4 findings, we have been asked to present the

5 secretary with the report that lays out main

6 arguments from each side \-- main arguments from each

7 side. Under the seven questions, we should attempt

8 to accurately capture the two main competing

9 arguments.

10 The co-chairs and the chairs of

11 each of the subcommittees should take careful steps

12 to ensure that all of the commissioners will be in

13 agreement with this portion of the report, fully

14 understanding the competing viewpoints \-- that

15 competing viewpoints is a necessary starting point

16 in any intellectual exercise.

17 Moreover, if this is all that

18 the report accomplishes, it will be a worthwhile

19 achievement. Much of the controversy and the

20 current debate comes from overheated arguments

21 from both extremes. The country will be well

22 served if the best arguments from each prospective

23 are presented in an objective, studious way.

24 It will at least help the public

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1 to understand that both sides have strong arguments

2 and that reasonable people can debate these issues,

3 come to different conclusions, and still respect

4 each other.

5 With regard to any recommendations

6 from the Commission, we are not to present a report

7 nor we should not or probably not present a report

8 that has a majority and minority opinions. We want

9 to come together as a group and come to some

10 conclusions as a group. This should allow us to

11 operate in a collaborative fashion. This will give

12 us more freedom to trust this process and trust our

13 fellow commissioners.

14 Now, I want to pass it back over

15 to Ted. I hope I was very clear, and if not, so

16 what. No, I\'m just kidding. If you guys have any

17 questions, we\'ll answer them later on.

18 MR. LELAND: Great. Let me \-- I\'ve

19 got to talk a little bit about the subcommittees

20 for a second and then we\'ll open it up for

21 discussion from the commissioners regarding the

22 process and questions that you might have of

23 ourselves, Debbie or Jay, who is going to hopefully

24 write the report.

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1 Subcommittee one, which is over

2 here, will meet at that table over there, is chaired

3 by Tom Griffith, is Bob Bowlsby, Deborah Yow, not

4 here, Cary Groth, Muffet McGraw and Jerry Reynolds.

5 Their topics, I\'m doing this mostly for the public

6 so they\'ll be able to maybe follow where their

7 interests are \-- are really questions one and two

8 that I outlined yesterday in my opening remarks.

9 Question one is are Title IX

10 standards for assessing equal opportunity in

11 athletics working to promote opportunities for

12 male and female athletes?

13 The second question is, is there

14 adequate Title IX guidance that enables colleges

15 and school districts to know what is expected of

16 them and to plan for an athletic program that

17 effectively meets the needs and interests of their

18 students.

19 Subcommittee two, which will meet

20 at this table back here, we may have some logistics

21 trying to get some public input there, is \-- will be

22 chaired by Lisa Keegan, Percy Bates, Donna de

23 Varona, Mike Slive, who called in this morning and

24 couldn\'t make it today, myself and Sally Stroup, Ex

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1 officio. They have three questions.

2 Question number one to them is

3 further guidance or other steps needed at the

4 junior and senior high school levels, where the

5 availability or absence of opportunities will

6 critically affect the prospective interests and

7 abilities of student athletes when they reach

8 college age?

9 The second question that they

10 have is how do revenue-producing and large roster

11 teams affect the provision of equal athletic

12 opportunities? The department has heard from some

13 parties that whereas some men athletes will walk on

14 to intercollegiate teams, without athletic financial

15 aid and without having been recruited, women rarely

16 do this. Is this perception accurate and, if so,

17 what are the implications for Title IX analysis?

18 The third question that

19 subcommittee two has, again, meeting to my left in

20 the back, is in what ways do opportunities in other

21 sports venues, such as the Olympics, professional

22 leagues, and community recreation programs, interact

23 with the obligations of colleges and school

24 districts to provide equal athletic opportunity?

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1 What are the implications for Title IX?

2 The third subcommittee, which will

3 meet at this table up here, is chaired by Gene

4 DeFilippo, Julie Foudy, Graham Spanier, Rita Simon,

5 Cynthia Cooper and Brian Jones, Ex officio.

6 For the members of that

7 committee \-- subcommittee, the first question is how

8 should activities such as cheerleading or bowling

9 factor into the analysis of equitable opportunities?

10 The next question is apart from

11 Title IX enforcement, are there other efforts to

12 promote athletic opportunities for male and female

13 students that the Department of Education might

14 support, such as public/private partnerships to

15 support the efforts of schools and colleges in this

16 area.

17 I have a couple more comments and

18 then we\'ll open up. I don\'t think, I would hope,

19 and I think I speak on Cynthia and my and maybe

20 Debbie\'s behalf, I would hope the subcommittees

21 not be reaching conclusions.

22 The first job, I think, of the

23 subcommittees is to find out what more information

24 that you need. We still have plenty of time for

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1 public comment, but we need to get going with

2 invitations and find out who we need to have in

3 and what kind of information, and find out who

4 might present this information to the Commission.

5 Then I think we need to \-- the

6 subcommittees may need to begin to handle and

7 talk about the main arguments. What are the best

8 arguments for the competing viewpoints that they\'ve

9 heard, fully understanding the competing viewpoints

10 are an essential starting point for any dialogue or

11 debate of any kind of intellectual enterprise.

12 That\'s sort of what we see is

13 laying out today and then we will get back together

14 at noon and maybe get a report from each one of the

15 subcommittees on how they did and away we go.

16 So let\'s open it up now for

17 commissioners only for thoughts and concerns.

18 Donna?

19 MS. De VARONA: Given the view that

20 we\'ve really heard about the proportionality debate

21 and the interest studies debate, I think it would

22 be really helpful for all of us to have a panel of

23 speakers that address how they implemented Title IX,

24 the schools that are in compliance, how they found

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1 how to do it.

2 Because I think that, you know,

3 those that are worried about non-revenue producing

4 sports disappearing, especially men\'s, I think it

5 would be helpful to us if we found colleges like

6 yours, and universities that have found a way to

7 come into compliance and how they\'ve done it from

8 Division I, Division II, Division III, so we can

9 hear \-- so we can see some role models for that.

10 MR. LELAND: Okay. Graham and then

11 Muffet?

12 MR. SPANIER: Two things; it would be

13 helpful to have some understanding of what the plan

14 is for future meetings. If, indeed, we\'re each

15 going to be in these subcommittees from now until

16 the end, that would feel a little frustrating to

17 me because there are just two questions in my

18 subcommittee, which I don\'t think get quite to the

19 heart of some of the issues as questions being

20 discussed in other subcommittees, and I do have

21 some things, I think, to contribute to the broader

22 discussion.

23 So I would hope that there is

24 some format in which we can all talk about what our

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1 reflections are based on the 100 or so people we

2 have heard from already.

3 That leads me to another

4 observation. While I think it is important for

5 people at all the sites to have an opportunity

6 to speak to us, after having heard the first

7 100 people give their viewpoints, it\'s somewhat

8 difficult to imagine what we haven\'t heard already.

9 I\'m not sure there is a large body of additional

10 information that is going to be important for us

11 to hear that we haven\'t been briefed on already,

12 but I would hope that instead of having another

13 100 people say many of the same things again in

14 subsequent hearings, that we might begin to think

15 about fewer panels and fewer speakers, more written

16 testimony, and more of our time together to really

17 talk about these issues, which we are hearing for

18 the first time.

19 There is a lot to talk about.

20 That\'s just sort of a conclusion that I have

21 after four days of, you know, hearings.

22 MS. COOPER: And more breaks, right?

23 MR. SPANIER: Well, I don\'t care

24 about \-- I don\'t care about the breaks, but\...

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1 MR. LELAND: Okay. Muffet?

2 MS. McGRAW: Well, kind of getting

3 back to what Donna was saying, I agree. I would

4 like to hear how people are doing it and also,

5 how the ones that are struggling, why is that?

6 What about the state of finances?

7 I think we need to have somebody come in and just

8 tell us what it\'s like at the college level.

9 Economically, what are they trying to \-- how are

10 we going to be able to make it work? I would like

11 to hear more about the EADA, the Equity and

12 Disclosure Act, and how that\'s impacting how we

13 are looking at the proportionality issues.

14 I thought we had a good sense of

15 exactly what the law of Title IX is. I\'m wondering

16 if \-- if it would help us if somebody came in and

17 talked about the actual cases and gave us a little

18 more insight into the problems that we are having

19 with that.

20 MR. LELAND: Julie \-- oh, excuse me.

21 Rita?

22 MS. SIMON: In terms of the future,

23 can you tell me when this final report \-- when we

24 will be working on our final report?

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1 MS. PRICE: We\'ll be \-- well, the

2 second day of each of the rest of our \-- of the

3 two town hall meetings that are two-day meetings,

4 Colorado Springs and San Diego \--

5 MS. SIMON: Right.

6 MS. PRICE: \-- are working our report

7 time.

8 MS. SIMON: Ah-hah.

9 MS. PRICE: The December meeting is

10 only working on our report.

11 MS. SIMON: Right.

12 MS. PRICE: Town hall meetings are

13 over. We\'ll have a full day of working on the

14 report as we will also in January.

15 MS. SIMON: All right. Now, what \--

16 in January, what did you say?

17 MS. PRICE: January, hopefully at

18 that time, it will be pretty much getting all of

19 the \-- this will be when Jay\'s work really gets

20 hard. We\'ll have all of what \-- you know, the

21 information that we want in the report, he as an

22 editor has to make sense out of that and put it

23 in its place so it makes a readable,

24 understandable \--

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1 MS. SIMON: And we\'ll all be \-- I

2 won\'t be there, but everyone \-- you\'ll all be there

3 at that January meeting \--

4 MS. PRICE: Yes.

5 MS. SIMON: \-- to work on it?

6 MS. PRICE: Yes.

7 MS. SIMON: Okay. All right.

8 MS. PRICE: And in responding to

9 Graham, you know, one of the things of today, as

10 we work in \-- we go to the subcommittees and we

11 look at these questions, it would be really helpful

12 to get some directions about next time, do you want

13 to meet totally as a whole, do you not want to meet

14 as a subcommittee, you know, lesser time in a

15 subcommittee, more time as a whole?

16 Certainly, every commissioner

17 should have equal input into the report in all

18 areas, but because of the questions asked in the

19 report, it\'s a lot to focus on when you have

20 basically four or five hours to focus on the

21 report.

22 That\'s why we all thought that

23 subcommittees were to get good focus on those

24 issues, but certainly not limited \-- each

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1 commissioner is not limited to their area of the

2 subcommittee.

3 Is that helpful?

4 MS. SIMON: Debbie, I know we are

5 inundated with paper, but we will, if possible,

6 get any surveys that have been done on interests \--

7 on assessment of interests.

8 MS. PRICE: Absolutely.

9 MS. SIMON: And will we get copies of

10 the decisions at the Appellate Court level that have

11 been made on top of that?

12 MS. PRICE: Yes. We can get you

13 those.

14 MS. SIMON: I\'d like that.

15 MS. PRICE: If you \-- if you let me

16 know you need a document, we will get it for you.

17 MS. SIMON: Thank you.

18 MS. PRICE: Many people are submitting

19 documents to us \--

20 MS. SIMON: Yes.

21 MS. PRICE: \-- and you got a bundle

22 this week.

23 MS. SIMON: Yes.

24 MS. PRICE: We have \-- let me ask one

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1 question of the staff.

2 Have the transcripts arrived?

3 Okay.

4 MS. MUNOZ: No.

5 MS. PRICE: Okay. We do have

6 transcripts. We had some difficulty with the

7 formatting on the transcripts, but they should

8 be arriving so you would be able to have last

9 time\'s complete transcripts to work with at

10 some point in the subcommittee time. They are

11 coming Fed Ex today.

12 MS. FOUDY: Just to touch on what

13 Donna, Muffet and Graham were talking about, I

14 agree in that, I think, three things we could

15 look at hopefully at future meetings, the financial

16 side and I know \-- I believe there\'s the most

17 recent NCAA report that\'s coming out in the next

18 couple weeks and getting, you know, perhaps

19 Mr. Fulks on a panel to talk about that because,

20 I think, that\'s obviously a key issue in this

21 whole debate.

22 From the legal side, we\'ve

23 heard from one person. I think it\'s important

24 that we really get a grasp on the legal issues

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1 and I don\'t think one person can represent that.

2 I think we need to hear different sides on that.

3 And then finally, when Donna

4 talked about solutions, I would love to hear from

5 some ex-athletic directors who aren\'t bound to

6 constituents right now and can speak openly and

7 freely and maybe some past presidents also who

8 have been close to the issue and are still close

9 to the issue.

10 MR. LELAND: Cary?

11 MS. GROTH: What everybody said.

12 Julie too.

13 MR. GRIFFITH: Ditto.

14 MS. STROUP: Yes.

15 MS. McGRAW: Ditto.

16 MS. FOUDY: Ditto.

17 MS. COOPER: I just want to go on

18 the record. We talked \-- Debbie and I talked about

19 cheerleading. We haven\'t gotten much testimony on

20 cheerleading and should we actually consider that

21 as a sport or not and I just want to go on the

22 record saying that we would probably need more

23 information on cheerleading, bowling, and just

24 to determine whether they should be considered.

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1 MS. KEEGAN: Ted, just to sort of

2 follow-up on this whole issue of how we\'re going

3 to spend our time from now in and writing the

4 report, is it possible that the subcommittees

5 today sort of come up with \-- these are the

6 questions as we see them being laid out to us

7 now, here\'s the information that we need, and I\'m

8 not quite sure past that point if this is best

9 done in subcommittee because after that, after

10 you\'ve defined what the issues are that we still

11 need information on, et cetera, A., we\'re going to

12 need it, and that takes time, and B., we\'re going to

13 need \-- I mean, I benefit from hearing what people

14 on this panel think about these issues and I don\'t

15 think that can be done on subcommittee because you

16 lose too much information.

17 MS. COOPER: So what you\'re saying is

18 once we establish what the findings are \--

19 MS. KEEGAN: Yeah, or once \-- what

20 we \--

21 MS. COOPER: \-- we should come

22 together and discuss it?

23 MS KEEGAN: I \-- I think so, Cindy.

24 I think \-- or even here\'s what we know and here\'s

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1 what we don\'t know so we could say to you could

2 you \-- like Julie just said could we get the

3 person who wrote this report in or could we get

4 some people who are ex-ADs and really have

5 no \-- that can speak freely or whatever it is we

6 think we need to hear, get those people here and

7 then let the Commission sort of together come to

8 the major topics.

9 I just don\'t see how beyond \--

10 I mean, we don\'t have very much time left really

11 for hearing what this panel thinks about different

12 issues and quite frankly, we haven\'t \-- we haven\'t

13 had that open discussion yet unless I missed it in

14 Atlanta, but it was my fault.

15 MR. LELAND: Other thoughts before

16 we break up? I just have one \-- oh, Percy?

17 MR. BATES: I just have one question.

18 Given the task that we have, I guess, I have a

19 little concern as to having two more meetings and

20 a session together whether or not we need to find

21 additional ways to get information that\'s going to

22 be needed because I just have a feeling that the

23 time is going to be a problem given the format and

24 the time that we\'ve already allotted together. It

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1 seems to me there are other kinds of issues that

2 we\'re going to have to deal with whether we are

3 talking to ex-presidents, ex-AD\'s. This is

4 certainly valuable input, but I don\'t see it as part

5 of this sort of public hearings in the two other

6 places that we have and then the minimal amount of

7 time that I think we\'re going to have. So I think

8 we need to think about ways of getting some

9 additional information that we may not be able to

10 get in terms of the current format.

11 MS. PRICE: One of \-- one of the major

12 roles of the Commission\'s staff and my job is to get

13 you the information that you need and \-- and being

14 under the Federal Advisory Committee Act, any piece

15 of information that we get, all of the e-mails that

16 we have received, every document needs to come from

17 the Commission office to you all so we have a copy

18 of it because we have to have all of the

19 documentation.

20 So if you make a request to us

21 for anything that we can get you, any \-- or even

22 if you get \-- it could be specific, it can be broad.

23 We need a report that deals with ex-issue.

24 MR. BATES: Yes.

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1 MS. PRICE: We will get that to you.

2 MR. BATES: Okay. And I feel

3 comfortable with that, Debbie. I guess I\'m raising

4 a different kind of question.

5 MS. PRICE: Uh-huh.

6 MR. BATES: It seems to me that \--

7 that we have committed to four public sessions with

8 public input and there may be the need, for example,

9 to hear from ex-presidents or ex-athletic directors

10 that I don\'t necessarily see fitting into that and

11 we \-- we need that kind of information and I\'m just

12 a little concerned as to how \-- as we identify it,

13 how do we go about fitting that into the kind of

14 schedule that we have if we \-- if we decide that

15 that\'s important?

16 I mean, I don\'t know that either

17 Colorado Springs or San Diego would be served well

18 by bringing in either, let\'s say, ex-presidents or

19 ADs. I imagine they could be there, but we may need

20 to hear directly from them in some other way and I

21 would just like as we \-- as we deliberate to think

22 about how we might go about getting that that might

23 be in addition or outside and I\'m certainly not one

24 who\'s looking for additional work because the time

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30

1 is limited, but I am concerned that we get

2 everything that we need and somehow be able to fit

3 it into the current process.

4 MS. PRICE: Well, let me ask you a

5 question. The charter or the Commission mandates

6 that we have a minimum of three town hall meetings.

7 We\'re having four because we wanted to have one

8 that clearly focused on high school and two-year and

9 junior colleges that we had yesterday.

10 I mean, wouldn\'t the format \--

11 I mean, if we had the athletic directors in, would

12 it be different than a panel format? Would it be

13 different \-- I mean, it would have to be a public

14 meeting. We\'re mandated that every meeting that we

15 have be a public meeting.

16 MR. BATES: Yeah. Well, I \-- it

17 seems to me that\'s what we would have to talk about,

18 whether it means modifying the sort of existing plan

19 if we \--

20 MS. PRICE: Sure.

21 MR. BATES: \-- decide on that.

22 MS. PRICE: Okay.

23 MS. GROTH: And, Debbie, just to

24 follow up, I think it\'s important that the public

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1 hear a lot of the things that we\'re wanting to hear

2 so that when we \-- when we do our report and provide

3 a report, they have that information.

4 MR. LELAND: Cary, mic?

5 MS. McGEE: Whoops! I\'m sorry. I

6 just think it\'s important that these people be part

7 of the panel so the public will have the opportunity

8 to hear what we\'re hearing as well. I think that\'s

9 real important.

10 MS. PRICE: Okay.

11 MR. LELAND: Julie?

12 MS. FOUDY: And in regards to

13 information that gets passed along to us, is there

14 a system in place right now for how often that will

15 come? I\'m on the road all the time so I just \--

16 if there is a system, I could give you address

17 updates on all of that.

18 MS. PRICE: Sure. We\'ll try and get

19 it out. As I lay \-- I wasn\'t sleeping well

20 last night so I was processing all of these thoughts

21 in my head.

22 But obviously, in the beginning,

23 information came slower. Now that the Commission

24 has been running, we\'ve had now, you know, basically

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1 one and a half or two town hall meetings, whichever

2 you want to say, information is coming in and we

3 would hope to get it out to you on Fridays.

4 So we will send you whatever

5 testimonies we\'ve received, you know, all \--

6 yesterday, we had several people who wanted to speak

7 at the open mic time. They provided written

8 testimonies. All of those will be distributed to

9 you.

10 Any one of the commissioners who\'s

11 asked for specific documentation, we\'ll put that in

12 the package as well as news clips that we\'ve

13 received, anything that is helpful for you in your

14 process, and we\'ll try to get that out and just send

15 it out on Fridays.

16 MS. FOUDY: Fridays, okay.

17 MS. PRICE: And we\'ll most likely

18 Fed Ex it so you have it at your fingertips as soon

19 as you need it. And hopefully it\'s not so big each

20 time you get it that it\'s, like, overwhelming to try

21 and process it.

22 MR. GRIFFITH: It takes me a while to

23 process things and I\'m now just thinking about what

24 Graham said.

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1 MS. COOPER: It was 15 minutes ago.

2 MR. GRIFFITH: Yeah. A couple hours

3 later, I\'ll respond to what Donna and Julie said.

4 I share some of Graham\'s concerns

5 about the repetitive nature of the public comments,

6 but I want to add this note of caution, and I\'ll do

7 it by a story that I told Lisa and a couple of the

8 others yesterday as the public testimony was going

9 on and on.

10 Years ago, there was a famous

11 Congressman from Arizona named Mo Udall, who was

12 the chairman of the House Interior Committee and

13 he had a habit of saying at Interior Committee

14 meetings that everything has been said, but not

15 everyone has said it.

16 And \-- but I think there\'s a real

17 value to that. I know Graham \-- I don\'t think

18 would disagree with this. I think this is a real

19 important part of our process is to allow the public

20 to come and maybe say the exact same thing that

21 everyone else has said, but so \-- I don\'t know how

22 we can balance both.

23 I think we need to be careful

24 about the limited amount of time that we have. I

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1 would like to see more deliberative time amongst

2 each other. I know in formal settings where I have

3 heard from various commissioners, I\'ve learned a

4 tremendous amount and I\'m very anxious to hear what

5 members of the Commission feel about these various

6 issues.

7 At the same time, I think it\'s

8 important that we continue to provide in some \--

9 I\'m not saying the amount of time that we devoted

10 to it is the precise time that ought to be spent

11 to it, but I think it\'s an important ingredient to

12 allow the public to come and respond even if we

13 don\'t hear anything new, we might, but even if we

14 don\'t hear anything new, I think it\'s an important

15 outlet for members of the public to respond.

16 MS. PRICE: And \-- and just as one

17 thought, it is required in the charter that we hear

18 from the general public. It doesn\'t say how much we

19 hear from the general public, but it\'s a big portion

20 of what we\'re called to hear from. So \-- but we can

21 work with this \-- you know, work within the

22 schedule.

23 MR. JONES: It doesn\'t say \-- it

24 doesn\'t say how much or in what format. So I think

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1 one thing that Graham proposed was that we take

2 written testimony and that sort of thing. So that\'s

3 an option.

4 MR. SPANIER: Well, yeah. I\'m not

5 suggesting cutting off the flow, but what I would \--

6 what I would suggest is, you know, instead of having

7 three panels, maybe one or two, and have those be

8 people that have information that \-- we\'re hearing

9 now several people say we need more of. You know,

10 we\'re hearing \-- we\'re hearing different viewpoints,

11 but we \-- we haven\'t heard much about the actual

12 context in which these decisions are being made and

13 the decision-makers are making the decisions.

14 What we haven\'t heard about the

15 realities of the lay of the land out there. I mean,

16 nobody has stepped forward who really has to make

17 these decisions as the university president or an

18 athletic director and say here\'s what I\'m dealing

19 with. Here are all the variables. Here\'s what goes

20 into the thinking. Here\'s what I\'m up against.

21 Yes, I know all of your points of view here, but

22 here\'s \-- here\'s what the deal is.

23 I mean, that kind of thing might

24 be \-- might be a missing link and we\'ve heard a

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1 couple other things about people. You know, if

2 there\'s interest in hearing while some programs

3 seem to have done it, how did they do it? You

4 know, then, we need to have people come and say,

5 okay, here\'s how I did it. I put more money into

6 it. I added women\'s sports and I\'m seriously

7 engaged in roster management, if that\'s what they

8 did. You know, let\'s hear an example or two of a

9 plan that we know \-- if \-- you know, if you\'re going

10 to meet the current guidelines, here\'s what you do.

11 You might want to get a couple of people who aren\'t

12 \-- who

13 are way outside of the guidelines. I mean, that

14 might be hard to get somebody to admit that, but \--

15 MR. GRIFFITH: There is a fifth

16 amendment privilege.

17 MR. SPANIER: Well, I mean it. You

18 know, and say okay, yeah, we\'re \-- we\'re struggling

19 to get there and here\'s why I don\'t think I can get

20 there. I mean, you know, that might be interesting.

21 But then I would focus the

22 remaining panels on that and, you know, I\'ve heard

23 now \-- well, we\'ve all heard from 100 people with

24 opinions on this, but I haven\'t heard from a single

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1 person around this table about what they\'re

2 thinking. I\'d like to try to, you know, start \--

3 MS. COOPER: Right.

4 MR. SPANIER: \-- moving a little more

5 in that direction.

6 MR. LELAND: Yes, Rita?

7 MS. SIMON: This is just one specific

8 kind of question. Is there \-- are the only sports

9 about which there is some question, bowling and

10 cheerleading? I haven\'t heard fencing discussed,

11 for example. Is there consensus about what all the

12 sports are and could we have a list of them so we

13 know what all the sports are that are being

14 considered and the two that are apparently under

15 discussion are bowling and cheerleading.

16 MS. COOPER: And cheerleading.

17 MR. REYNOLDS: Such as?

18 MS. COOPER: Are you trying to get

19 a list of all activities that should be \-- or that

20 we\'re considering to be \-- to name as sports or are

21 you trying to get a list of non-revenue that are

22 being dropped?

23 MS. SIMON: I want to know if you

24 say how should activities such as cheerleading or

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1 bowling factor into the analysis, are there other

2 such, quote, activities that we\'re not considering

3 and what are all the activities that we do define

4 as sports, what are they?

5 Is that not a reasonable question?

6 MR. LELAND: I think that\'s the bigger

7 question inside the little question about bowling.

8 MS. SIMON: Okay.

9 MR. LELAND: Yeah. I think you\'re \--

10 my perception \-- you\'re absolutely correct. We

11 heard from the High School Federation, their

12 definition of what a sport is and \--

13 MS. SIMON: Right.

14 MR. LELAND: \-- what\'s it really like

15 on a campus.

16 MS. SIMON: Yes.

17 MR. LELAND: What about ultimate

18 frisbee? How do \--

19 MS. SIMON: That\'s right.

20 MR. LELAND: \-- all of these things

21 work?

22 MS. SIMON: Martial arts, for example.

23 MR. LELAND: Because the OCR has made

24 some determinations about what they would consider

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1 as part of your proportionality computations and

2 what they won\'t and how do \-- is that fair, is that

3 right, what that \--

4 MS. SIMON: I would like data on that.

5 I would like to hear that. I would like to hear

6 that.

7 MR. LELAND: I think it\'s fair to

8 extrapolate that question.

9 Donna?

10 MS. De VARONA: I think Gerald was

11 first.

12 MR. REYNOLDS: Okay. I just want to

13 add that OCR has decided that it\'s not going to be

14 in the business of deciding what\'s a sport. There

15 is a category that we call emerging sports and we

16 have a laundry list of factors that we look at.

17 And if you satisfy a good number of them, then, we

18 will presume that it\'s a sport.

19 For instance, you have to have a

20 schedule, you have to provide scholarships, you have

21 to be competitive, but we have stayed away from an

22 imperial approach where we say, okay, that is a

23 sport and that is not.

24 MS. FOUDY: It\'s case by case, is that

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1 correct?

2 MR. REYNOLDS: That\'s correct.

3 MS. de VARONA: Actually, there is a

4 study that\'s been done at one university and I can

5 get it for the Commission on looking at cheerleading

6 as a sport within the university system.

7 I also \-- aside from the finances,

8 I would love to have a solution panel.

9 MR. GRIFFITH: A what?

10 MS. de VARONA: A solution panel.

11 I don\'t care if people think outside the box or

12 not. I mean, I\'m \-- I always think outside the

13 box. I mean, my feeling is you\'re going to have

14 to think outside the box if you\'re going to leave

15 a legacy.

16 So I would love to invite people

17 that have proposed \-- I know former Congressman

18 Tom McMillan wrote a paper on thinking outside the

19 box as it related to accommodating athletes on

20 campuses. So I think that that would be important

21 even though our mandate may not be that, I think

22 that \-- I personally feel that we\'re not doing our

23 job if we don\'t come up with some solutions or

24 suggestions on how to look at this and how to think

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1 about it not \-- not for the next five years, but

2 for the next 25 years. So that\'s my suggestion.

3 And maybe we could do it \-- you

4 know, I know we\'re just working very hard from the

5 9:00 to 5:00, but maybe we take a break and have a

6 dinner and just \-- I wouldn\'t have a problem with

7 using my evening to continue discussions.

8 MS. COOPER: Yes, but they have to be

9 public.

10 MS. de VARONA: It will be public.

11 MS. PRICE: Oh, yes.

12 MS. KEEGAN: Okay. Yes.

13 MS. FOUDY: Touching upon the

14 subcommittee issue that Tom and Graham brought up,

15 I think, you know, maybe after we meet today with

16 our subcommittees, we can get a grasp on \-- we have

17 a full two hours, if that was enough to touch upon

18 and decide because I\'m looking at we have two other

19 days, you know, to actually share information and I

20 agree with Lisa and everyone else, that I think we

21 need a greater representation in the question so

22 maybe after today, we can decide do we need more

23 subcommittees or can we go on into a general session

24 on the two other days.

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1 MR. LELAND: How about if we left it

2 this way on the subcommittee issue. I mean, I think

3 we saw the subcommittees as a tool. You can always

4 throw the tool away.

5 Why don\'t we do what Lisa

6 suggests, which is try to define, you know, in sort

7 of shorthand what the major issues are and what your

8 need for more information is as specific as you can

9 make it, specific information, not gee, we\'d like \--

10 or I shouldn\'t say that.

11 General \-- if it needs to be

12 general, but as specific as we can make it and then

13 when we get back together at noon, we can decide

14 collectively whether the subcommittees should

15 continue or whether their work is done and where we

16 meet as a group as a whole.

17 MS. KEEGAN: I\'ve got one question.

18 Jerry, if I could just follow-up

19 what you just said, and I realize those of you who

20 work in this realm all the time probably think that

21 this is a normal thing, but for those of us who

22 come to proportionality from this moment on and

23 see proportionality as a number which you divide

24 by to get \-- and to hear you say that there\'s no

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1 fixed definition of a sport, all sorts of bells

2 and whistles go off in my head saying there\'s \--

3 I mean, maybe it\'s just \-- Rita, I don\'t know if

4 that\'s where you were going, but I just need to

5 kind of \-- sort of put on the table that if that

6 thing is always moving, I\'m not quite sure how we

7 bring anything to this debate because how can \--

8 I mean, proportional to what?

9 Somebody, somewhere at some point, probably in

10 your office, makes a decision, and I was teasing

11 Jerry yesterday, if I was going to be heinously

12 manipulated by somebody, in my opinion, I\'m glad

13 it\'s towards Jerry\'s end and so, you know, I just

14 need to, I guess, get my hands around them.

15 Maybe it\'s not to be answered now, but I can\'t

16 help solve the problem that I didn\'t \-- need

17 defined for me somehow.

18 MR. REYNOLDS: Well, there are a lot

19 of issues. There are a lot of moving targets. In

20 the case of emerging sports, I think the key thing

21 to remember is that it\'s emerging. Over time,

22 certain things \-- certain activities, people get

23 serious about.

24 People start to view it in a

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1 competitive fashion and, I guess, you could make the

2 argument that this is how all sports have \-- have

3 evolved. And the primary difference is that certain

4 sports have huge head starts, but that \-- the only

5 point that I was trying to make is that OCR just

6 does not dictate what\'s a sport.

7 I mean, we have a list of factors

8 that we look at and \-- and that list helps us \--

9 well, it prevents schools \-- it enables us to tell

10 when a school is trying to manipulate the process in

11 order to get its numbers right.

12 For instance, if you wanted to

13 affect your numbers, you could say that juggling is

14 a sport and create teams, but the process that we

15 have in place, we\'re not going to say that juggling

16 is not a sport, but we\'re going to ask is there a

17 schedule in place? Are there many schools that have

18 this particular activity? Are they competing?

19 MS. KEEGAN: But so it\'s fixed

20 criteria, though?

21 MR. REYNOLDS: Yes.

22 MS. KEEGAN: Something has to be fixed

23 somewhere.

24 MS. SIMON: Wait a minute.

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1 MR. REYNOLDS: The criteria, it\'s a

2 laundry list and if you can satisfy most of them,

3 there\'s a presumption that it\'s a sport or not a

4 sport.

5 MS. SIMON: But why, then, are we

6 focusing \-- why is the subcommittee focusing on

7 bowling and cheerleading? Are they not \-- why

8 aren\'t we focusing on martial arts?

9 MR. REYNOLDS: It\'s \-- for me, it\'s

10 illustrative. I mean, these are \--

11 MR. SPANIER: Oh, it\'s just

12 illustrative?

13 MR. SPANIER: Such as bowling.

14 MR. REYNOLDS: Yeah. These are

15 examples.

16 MS. SIMON: I don\'t know what \"such

17 as\" means in this context. I mean, what are you

18 comparing bowling to?

19 MR. REYNOLDS: Well, the way I

20 view it, it\'s the entire universe of emerging

21 sports, activities that people haven\'t viewed,

22 at least traditionally, as a sport, but they\'re

23 in the process of transitioning to a competitive

24 sport.

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1 MS. SIMON: Then, Jerry, is there a

2 list that you have or anybody of what emerging

3 sports are?

4 MS. GROTH: Yes. There \-- there\'s \--

5 there are sports listed within the NCAA and then

6 there\'s a list of emerging sports. That might be

7 helpful to the Commission that we can provide.

8 MS. SIMON: I would \-- see, as an

9 outsider, I would like to see that.

10 MS. KEEGAN: But has the OCR bought

11 off on the NCAA\'S list?

12 MR. REYNOLDS: No.

13 MS. KEEGAN: Okay. I mean, I would

14 hate to be a real pain here, this is fundamental to

15 me.

16 MS. SIMON: This seems \--

17 MR. GRIFFITH: I think there\'s a lot

18 of overlap.

19 MR. SPANIER: That\'s a part of the

20 question \-- there ought to be a question on that

21 because the history of enforcement of Title IX seems

22 to be \-- to go back to what the NCAA has defined as

23 sports, areas in which they offered championships,

24 areas in which they set scholarship limits, areas

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1 that are reflected now in reports that are required

2 by law for universities to provide.

3 But while Penn State, for example,

4 operates 29 NCAA sports, we have another 50 club

5 sports. We have another 50 competitions in

6 intramurals involving 90,000 students a year.

7 That\'s, I think, part of what we\'re dealing with.

8 How \-- how are you \-- and then the NCAA now has a

9 list of emerging sports and at some point, they will

10 decide that some of those merging sports should

11 become like other NCAA sports, right? Percy, I

12 mean, these are questions that are on the table now.

13 So I think that these discussions

14 need to take place both in relation to and with some

15 knowledge of what the NCAA has decided, but also in

16 relation \-- putting the NCAA aside, what\'s the right

17 thing to do. We\'re really trying to give some

18 guidance here back to the Department of Education

19 and OCR, right? So it\'s kind of a two way thing.

20 MR. REYNOLDS: Yes.

21 MS. SIMON: Especially if we\'re

22 thinking of Title IX as it will operate in the

23 future. We have to know what, of the current,

24 quote, emerging sports, are likely to result in

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1 the scholarships.

2 MS. FOUDY: Well, didn\'t \-- didn\'t

3 Judith Sweet in the last town hall say that they

4 were going \-- I don\'t want to put words in her

5 mouth, but we need to get a confirmation on this

6 because this will take away this whole debate on

7 the bowling side. Didn\'t she say they were going

8 to sanction it as a new sport to Debbie Yow?

9 MS. COOPER: I think she said that

10 her \--

11 MS. GROTH: Did she?

12 MS. KEEGAN: Did she?

13 MR. LELAND: Yes, it is. It is.

14 MS. FOUDY: Because I think we need to

15 take that off the list because that\'s already been

16 determined. I think cheerleading is the issue we\'re

17 looking at, correct?

18 MR. REYNOLDS: You\'re referring to

19 bowling? That\'s \-- I\'m sorry. I lost you there.

20 MS. FOUDY: Last week \-- or last

21 month when Judith Sweet from the NCAA spoke as a

22 panelist, I believe, and I haven\'t seen the

23 transcript, but she said something to Debbie Yow

24 to the effect of that bowling had been decided

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1 that it was a sport. So if that\'s the case, I

2 think we need that updated because we don\'t need to

3 discuss that.

4 MR. LELAND: Let me break in here as

5 the traffic cop here for a second. I think this is

6 absolutely the kind of discussion we need. We need

7 more facts. I think, to end this, the fact is the

8 NCAA has recognized bowling as an emerging sport.

9 That still doesn\'t answer what Jerry is still over

10 here in terms of the OCR. Now, they look at this

11 thing. I don\'t think the definitions are identical.

12 MR. REYNOLDS: Yeah. There\'s a lot of

13 overlap.

14 MR. LELAND: Yeah. But let\'s stop

15 for a second. I mean, what I\'d like to do is try

16 to get us into subcommittees so that \-- Cynthia

17 and I sort of think that this kind of discussion,

18 identifying these types of issues that need more

19 drawing out is what we\'d like you to do in

20 subcommittee for a while.

21 Then, let\'s get back together

22 and continue to discuss it because this is a \-- I

23 mean, I think this is the kind of discussion we

24 need to put off until we sort of identify an agenda

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1 of items that we can handle in a more organized way

2 because I think \-- but this is exactly the kind of

3 conversation we need to get into eventually.

4 I\'m just not \-- I would like

5 to move to the subcommittees fairly soon.

6 Yes?

7 MR. GRIFFITH: Is another way to

8 state \-- I agree with you, that this is subcommittee

9 discussion, but is another way to state it simply

10 how should emerging sports factor into the analysis?

11 Isn\'t that what we\'re really saying rather than

12 focusing on bowling and cheerleading? I mean, I

13 think that the subcommittees should look at how do

14 emerging sports enter into this.

15 MS. COOPER: And I think the

16 subcommittee will, but right now, we\'re not in a

17 subcommittee. So we\'ve kind of got to get moving.

18 MR. LELAND: Yeah. I just have \--

19 because I have one other question I\'d like to ask.

20 I want to make sure that, you know, within the

21 eight or seven questions that we have, that the

22 issues that are really \-- affect athletes and the

23 athletic community as a result of Title IX are

24 somehow captured in those questions.

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1 Those questions were sort of

2 handed to Cynthia and I and Debbie and all of us

3 and here\'s the questions, answer them, and we\'ve

4 heard a lot of testimony and I want to make sure

5 that we have some way of addressing other issues

6 that relate to Title IX that might affect \-- I don\'t

7 have any issues that aren\'t \-- that can\'t be covered

8 with the seven or eight questions that we\'ve been

9 given.

10 So I\'m \-- but if your issues,

11 you say, you know, gee, I\'m hearing from public

12 testimony or I\'m hearing from the people or my

13 professional background tells me that this is a

14 problem and it\'s not covered anywhere in the

15 questions, let\'s bring that up at some point in

16 time and try to \-- try to identify it because I

17 do think this is \-- our Commission is a, you know,

18 once in a period of time shot to try to make this a

19 law as good as we can make it and the effects of it

20 as good as we can so let\'s make sure we don\'t miss

21 anything just because it\'s not a question. We have

22 to answer the questions, but let\'s take a look at

23 other issues that you\'ve \-- that you\'ve come across.

24 Yes, Donna?

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1 MS. de VARONA: Yeah, in the

2 context of the revenue-producing sports on campus

3 and how they impact minor sports, I think the

4 way \-- the way the question is phrased takes a turn

5 because then we talk about walk ons instead of just

6 simply the question, which is, how does revenue

7 producing sports impact minor sports. I think

8 that\'s separate as to how walk ons impact the sports

9 community. So I would like to see that two-part

10 instead of one.

11 MR. LELAND: Okay. Is there any

12 other \-- I didn\'t want to stifle the debate too

13 badly, but we do want to \-- so I guess we\'ll ask

14 people to go ahead and move to their subcommittees

15 one, two, three and we\'ll try to accommodate the

16 general public as best we can. Please forgive

17 us for not having a spectator line.

18 (Whereupon, after the

19 subcommittee sessions

20 were had, following

21 proceedings were held

22 accordingly.)

23 MR. LELAND: Okay. Let me start

24 off by thanking everyone for their forbearance in

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1 terms of making the accommodations to sit around

2 in circles and have the subcommittees\' comments

3 public. I thought it worked okay.

4 I apologize to everyone for not

5 making it more clear that we couldn\'t \-- because

6 of the way the committee is set up, because of the

7 sort of rules and regulations under which we have

8 agreed to operate, we couldn\'t allow public comment

9 and public interaction during the subcommittee

10 meeting. So on behalf of Cynthia, Debbie and I,

11 we apologize for having to go around and stop.

12 I didn\'t \-- it\'s my fault for not

13 making it more clear in the beginning that that was

14 sort of the ground rules, but I\'ll try to make it

15 clear next time. I \-- I did tell a few people that

16 were \-- were asked for public comment like myself

17 and Tom, that their federal marshals are outside

18 from Leavenworth. The penalties are about a year at

19 Leavenworth \-- no, I\'m just kidding, of course, but

20 I don\'t want to be made too much fun of a rule and

21 regulation that we\'ve decided to abide by, but we\'ve

22 agreed to abide by it, but we\'ll do a better job of

23 making it clearer.

24 What we\'ve decided to do now is

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54

1 ask \-- there is a written set of notes from each one

2 of the subcommittees that will become part of the \--

3 we did not take transcriptions, but we took notes \--

4 detailed notes and those notes will be part of the

5 public record and we\'ll put them on \-- post them on

6 the website as soon as we can get them done. But I

7 would ask each one of the chairpeople of the three

8 subcommittees maybe to make a short one or two or

9 three-minute report on how their discussions went

10 and some of the issues and some of the requested

11 information that they might have and then we\'ll pass

12 on at that time \-- we\'ll open up the commissioners

13 for any other thing that\'s for the good of the

14 cause, any other concerns people have, and then

15 we\'ll be in a position to adjourn.

16 So, Tom, do you mind starting?

17 MR. GRIFFITH: Sure.

18 MS. FOUDY: Wait. Here he comes.

19 MS. COOPER: Testing! Hey!

20 MR. GRIFFITH: I\'ll make a report,

21 but I hope that the members of the subcommittee will

22 feel free to correct and revise if I got it wrong.

23 In actually quite a stunning development, in our 45

24 minutes together, we solved all the problems. It

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55

1 was amazing.

2 MS. COOPER: So did we.

3 MS. GRIFFITH: On question one,

4 which is the effectiveness of Title IX as it\'s

5 currently interpreted and being implemented, we

6 decided that there were three comments to make

7 about its effectiveness.

8 There is a group that thinks,

9 yes, it\'s effective and no correction is needed,

10 we\'re on the right path.

11 There\'s also another group that

12 says, yes, it has been very effective for women,

13 but there have been some unintended consequences

14 for men that need to be addressed. And it was our

15 sense that the major argument there had to do with

16 proportionality.

17 But we thought another theme that

18 should be stated is we\'re laying out the arguments

19 for, and against, is that it\'s important to note

20 that virtually everyone that we\'ve heard from thinks

21 that Title IX has \-- has had significant benefits.

22 So that\'s sort of an over-arching \-- over-arching

23 theme.

24 Now, with regard to the

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1 information that we think the Commission needs on

2 question one, we came up with several categories.

3 First of all, we feel that we need to have reliable

4 participation figures. We just need to get a better

5 sense of what the participation levels are. The

6 suggestion was that we go to NCAA and the National

7 Federation of High Schools as places that might be

8 good sources for some objective information on

9 participation.

10 We thought that this would be a

11 great place to pick up on Donna and Julie\'s idea

12 to have athletic directors and decision-makers

13 come and tell their story about how they achieved

14 compliance and also have other decision-makers

15 come to talk about their frustrations at not being

16 able to achieve compliance. So I put this down as

17 we need decision-makers to come tell their stories.

18 We think it\'s important to hear

19 on the compliance side that \-- from those who were

20 in compliance, we think it\'s important to hear from

21 folks who complied through prong one, folks who

22 complied through prong two and folks who complied

23 through prong three.

24 There was also a suggestion that

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1 in this \-- coming to hear the stories that are told

2 that it might be helpful in addition to athletic

3 directors to perhaps hear from \-- from heads of

4 conferences who might be able to give them a larger

5 view and then a very good suggestion that Muffet

6 just made that it might be good to hear from some

7 finance experts to try and get at this \-- this \--

8 whether what\'s happening here is responding to the

9 coercive effects of a regulatory scheme or if they

10 are simply resource decisions that are being made

11 and to understand the interplay between the two.

12 I fear I\'m running out of time so

13 let me just quickly \-- when it got to question two,

14 we didn\'t think \-- we thought that the information

15 that would be addressed to question one is probably

16 going to answer question two as well.

17 On question two, we understood

18 that question to be simply is the law clear? Is the

19 law clear enough so that people can understand that

20 they are in compliance or out of compliance and it

21 was the sense of our subcommittee that that\'s not

22 that interesting a question, no offense, it\'s an

23 important question because we thought it pretty

24 clear that folks \-- that prong one is fairly clear

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1 and that prongs two and three are less clear and,

2 therefore, because they are less clear, there is

3 some anxiety about consistency of application, but

4 we never got to what the \-- is there any information

5 that we need other than the stuff that we\'re going

6 to get from question one that we need for question

7 two.

8 I just realized that I skipped

9 over my notes, perhaps the most significant

10 discussion that we had, in terms of the information

11 we need on question one and that is we need to have

12 people come and give us their views on

13 proportionality, whether it works, what would happen

14 if you changed the meaning of substantial

15 proportionality, what would happen if you did away

16 with proportionality, what would the world look like

17 in that sort of \-- in that sort of regime and then

18 for those who don\'t like proportionality, we\'d like

19 to put them to the task of telling us what might

20 work.

21 Muffet, Cary, Jerry, have I \--

22 MS. GROTH: All done.

23 MR. GRIFFITH: I think that\'s where we

24 are.

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1 MR. LELAND: Thank you. Jerry?

2 MR. SPANIER: That did solve all the

3 problems.

4 MR. GRIFFITH: Jerry has something.

5 MR. REYNOLDS: Okay. I\'ll make this

6 quick. Under question number one, there are a lot

7 of other subcategories that are \-- that I believe

8 should be discussed; traditional students versus

9 non-traditional students, stuff like that. So we

10 didn\'t unpack all of the concepts that were involved

11 in the first question.

12 MR. LELAND: Any other comments from

13 the committee?

14 MS. COOPER: Subcommittee two?

15 MS. KEEGAN: We had three questions

16 and actually we sort of combined the first and the

17 third questions which were is there enough guidance

18 at the high school level and also what \-- how do we

19 fold in what\'s going on in community sports and

20 sports outside the school setting into this picture.

21 It became very clear to us that we

22 do not know that much about what goes on in the K-12

23 system in terms of data. The reason for that being

24 that these systems are locally controlled in every

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1 sense of the word. Usually, there are very few

2 instances of centrally controlled information.

3 The question that Donna asked was

4 how do we know what\'s happening if \-- you know, if

5 we don\'t have good data. So there\'s a desire to try

6 and fix some numbers on participation rates and

7 what\'s really going on. So that\'s one thing we\'re

8 looking for.

9 Obviously, those numbers probably

10 have to come from the sports themselves, but we were

11 acknowledged that there are several activities,

12 maybe even the majority of activities, although I

13 don\'t know, that go on for children who are in K-12

14 that are outside of any sort of organized

15 organization where you could find those kind of

16 numbers.

17 You certainly are going to be able

18 to get the numbers where they are counted, but so

19 much of what goes on in the schools themselves is

20 informal and because of local control arrangements,

21 you don\'t have in most states any sort of counting

22 at that level. You begin to have it in high school,

23 junior high school just a little bit, but we

24 definitely said we wanted to get those numbers.

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1 Then the question was also asked

2 what happens at OCR. Maybe we need some information

3 from OCR, Jerry, about what are the complaints filed

4 at that level for the most part. Try to get a fix

5 on where are these problems. I made the comment

6 that I thought it was interesting when we went about

7 from a leader\'s council standpoint trying to collect

8 information on what are your situations in K-12,

9 there aren\'t as many readily organized groups

10 around these issues.

11 You have them in abundance at the

12 university levels. They are \-- they are not as much

13 in evidence, for whatever reason, in the K-12 system

14 immediately although you certainly have the high

15 school athletic organizations and you have a lot

16 of \-- we all could come up with stories of things

17 that we had managed on behalf of individual students

18 or individual cases. It doesn\'t seem to be as well

19 organized in terms of advocacy or opposition to a

20 certain way of handling things.

21 For all that that says, either

22 it\'s just unorganized or there aren\'t that many

23 problems or there\'s a ton of problems no one knows

24 what to do about it. It\'s just an interesting

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1 difference in the way these things are being handled

2 from the K-12 system and the university systems.

3 There also was a comment about

4 states that independently passed echoing legislation

5 to the Federal Title IX legislation; Georgia,

6 California, Donna said, has that, I think, New

7 Jersey. It would be interesting to hear from those

8 states why they did that, if they think it makes a

9 difference, maybe from states who didn\'t pass

10 echoing legislation, why they didn\'t do it and did

11 they think they meet the same ends with just federal

12 legislation in place. Is that something that we\'d

13 even want to talk about having states echo the Title

14 IX intent in their own laws.

15 The issue that we may \-- we

16 probably spent the most time on was our second

17 question, which was how to revenue large roster

18 revenue-producing teams, how does that affect

19 other sports and is the issue \-- is the walk on

20 argument true that men walk on and women don\'t?

21 The discussion that we had was

22 probably, and I think Percy put it well, people

23 walk on to teams or want to be affiliated with

24 teams that have a tradition of being really

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63

1 successful when they\'re not \-- when they know they

2 may not be able to play very much, they want to be

3 there if there is a sense of that\'s an important

4 place to be. That probably is not so much men or

5 women driven as it is men have a longer tradition of

6 teams generally and so you have that going on more.

7 Somebody asked the question do

8 the Tennessee Volunteers, as a women\'s team, do

9 they have that walk-on problem, situation, because

10 that\'s such a strong tradition and has been for so

11 long. So that\'s an \-- that was an interesting

12 question.

13 It sort of led us, though, into

14 the whole question of we probably got into your

15 discussion over proportionality or how you deal \--

16 how you manage rosters if you do have to in these

17 large teams, is it possible we could come up with a

18 way to create a huge amount of opportunity for all

19 students, equal opportunities for young men and

20 young women athletes at the same time and still

21 allow people who just want to play to play who

22 seem to be cut from potentially being on a team

23 because at that point, you would have too many

24 people \-- too many men on a given roster and not

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1 enough women playing.

2 We obviously weren\'t in the

3 business of trying to solve that problem. We

4 decided, though, that solutions are probably

5 going to come from thinking outside \-- not just

6 tweaking with this system the way that we have

7 it, but thinking outside of that.

8 The question was posed how are

9 the independent sports \-- are they the Olympic

10 sports interacting with collegiate sports?

11 Could sort of we be making better use of shared

12 facilities, shared revenue available, et cetera? Is

13 it possible we even need to count participation a

14 little bit differently than we do given all of the

15 different accesses to sports at the university that

16 everybody has?

17 Also, we had a discussion about

18 what are outside resources, endowments, et cetera.

19 What are they \-- how are they affecting what is

20 happening at the university and should they be

21 allowed? Donna had a good story about what had

22 happened at UCLA in water polo. When that was \--

23 they wanted to have that endowed. Is that something

24 that can and should be allowed and what happens to

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1 other sports when that happens?

2 So I think what we were looking

3 for in terms of information was just sort of stories

4 about how that\'s happened and also we had the same

5 desire to hear from athletic directors. I thought

6 Julie\'s idea about people who are retired would be a

7 little bit more free to speak right now about what

8 really goes on and what they did to either maintain

9 some sort of compliance or why they had difficulty

10 staying there and what all of these issues \-- how

11 they affected them, but probably the best people to

12 hear from are those who have tried to make these

13 systems work.

14 And Percy and Donna and Ted, you

15 can add to that if I missed anything.

16 MS. FOUDY: Can I just comment on one

17 thing? With the high school data collection, when

18 we talked to Mr. \-- I believe his name was Gardner

19 yesterday with the NFHS?

20 MS. KEEGAN: You\'re right.

21 MS. FOUDY: I think that will be a

22 good idea is to get ideas from people in that

23 community. We talked about solutions at the

24 collegiate level and hearing from all the different

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66

1 divisions, but we did have someone tied into that

2 that would know how to collect that because I know

3 that\'s a big issue.

4 MS. KEEGAN: We did write down \-- it\'s

5 Bob Gardner\'s name and also somebody spoke about

6 getting the Title IX \-- I think, Donna, that was

7 you \-- talking to the Title IX commissioners in

8 every state. We actually had, I think, on our list

9 of potential people to talk, the Tennessee Title IX

10 coordinator had, said he might be willing to come

11 and talk about that because those are probably

12 people we need to hear form. What kind of

13 complaints do they get or congratulatory comments or

14 whatever even though people don\'t call you up just

15 to say how wonderful life is.

16 MS. de VARONA: I have something to add

17 to it. Our sentiment also during the discussion was

18 our acknowledgment that, at least in our group, that

19 \--

20 MS. GROTH: We can\'t hear you, Donna.

21 MS. de VARONA: I think there was a

22 sentiment in our group that was expressed that \--

23 that we\'re \-- we feel for women that are blamed

24 for \-- for the cutting of men\'s sports, that the

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1 blame game is something that\'s damaging to both

2 males and females in the college environment \--

3 the sporting environment and that there are

4 forces that have to be acknowledged and that

5 proportionality isn\'t the only force, that we

6 have to look at finances, that we\'re very interested

7 in really exploring the finances and how

8 revenue-producing sports impact this discussion.

9 The pressure of athletic directors

10 to try to meet the guidelines, but also manage the

11 sport environment and that goes back to the question

12 of talking to athletic directors that have been able

13 to comply with Title IX and how they\'ve done it.

14 MS. KEEGAN: And probably I would

15 echo, Donna, that Ted made the point we need to talk

16 to these finance directors that I think, Tom, you

17 brought up in your group, the same thing. What have

18 actual expenditures been on the really big teams?

19 Have those gone up considerably and is that what

20 actually is cutting perhaps or impacting other teams

21 in addition to any other roster concerns that people

22 have.

23 MR. LELAND: Okay. Is that it?

24 MS. GROTH: That\'s it.

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1 MR. SPANIER: Graham?

2 MR. SPANIER: I\'m substituting for

3 Gene DeFilippo.

4 Our topics related to emerging

5 sports and the \-- any potential role for the

6 Department of Education in fostering public/private

7 partnerships in support of athletics.

8 On the subject of emerging

9 sports, we talked a little bit about what some of

10 the underlying issues were that may have motivated

11 a question like that and the pros and cons of

12 putting more emphasis on emerging sports.

13 And I think it got us a little

14 bit into a territory that overlapped with some of

15 the other discussions that you\'ve been reporting

16 on. Among the issues behind the question of why

17 we might be so interested in adding sports like

18 cheerleading is the fact that you have a men\'s sport

19 like football that involves a lot of participation

20 and that leads to \-- has lead to schools looking at

21 women\'s crew and equestrian and cheerleading and

22 maybe some others that might hold more interest for

23 women and whether that can be brought into the

24 picture to help with issues of proportionality,

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1 which, then, of course, raises the same issues of

2 how important is strict proportionality as a goal.

3 But we then also talked about

4 emerging sports and what do we mean by that?

5 What are the definitions? I think that the two sets

6 of issues \-- there are \-- one important issue is

7 should the Department of Education and the Office

8 of Civil Rights be using NCAA definitions of what

9 is a sport or not a sport or an emerging sport and

10 to what extent should we be focusing on data that

11 the NCAA produces as defining all of the different

12 topics as a basis for deciding whether a school is

13 in compliance with Title IX.

14 So there is an important set of

15 issues there about what the definitions are and

16 what\'s being counted and what all the rules are

17 for scholarships between the NCAA and what the

18 federal government\'s larger interests might be.

19 But, then, secondly, what \--

20 we need more information on what these emerging

21 sports are, what do the cheerleading people

22 nationally say about cheerleading, what is that

23 sport all about and what does it mean to be

24 competitive and have schedules and compete. We

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1 need to hear a little more on where we can get

2 that information. We don\'t need people to testify.

3 We just need some data and some paper about what

4 the whole deal is there and that might help inform

5 us.

6 In terms of public/private

7 partnerships, that\'s a concept that, of course,

8 sounds very good on the surface, but I think

9 that there\'s a genuine question, is there really

10 legitimate role for the U.S. Department of Education

11 in fostering partnerships for colleges and

12 universities? I don\'t know.

13 We talked about the possibility

14 that there might actually be a role for certain

15 national organizations like wrestling organizations

16 nationally or gymnastics organizations in promoting

17 those sports. They have a general interest in it.

18 They care about the Olympic movement and so on and

19 maybe their needs to be a closer partnership with

20 colleges and universities and perhaps there\'s an

21 opening for funding streams in that direction.

22 When you talk about public/private

23 partnerships, corporate support, mostly that\'s going

24 to happen at the level of a given college or

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1 university, all of whom raise money through

2 sponsorships and partnerships in a number of

3 different ways and, of course, that\'s happening

4 now and maybe should be encouraged, but it\'s

5 a little unclear how that would fit to in the

6 mission of the Department of Education.

7 MS. FOUDY: Just one thing. Graham,

8 I don\'t think you said this in the last bit, but

9 Brian\'s suggestion about looking at possible

10 relationships formed by the Department of Education

11 at the high school level and how you can do programs

12 really into the high school level and Graham

13 mentioned it might be hard to do at the university

14 level, but doing it at the high school level and

15 encouraging, you know, sports participation and I

16 know the Department of Health and Human Services

17 does things with non-smoking that our team has

18 worked on so something maybe partnering with

19 that, which I thought was a very good idea.

20 MR. LELAND: Okay. Any other

21 comments? I think we\'re \--

22 MS. PRICE: The girls right now

23 are bringing in the transcripts that we\'ve been

24 expecting to arrive since the night before we got

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72

1 here. One is almost 300 pages long and the other

2 is 200 pages long.

3 If you want to take them with

4 you, you are welcome to take them with you if you

5 need to have them. Otherwise, it breaks my heart

6 to say this since it took so long to get them

7 here, we will Fed Ex them to you. The will be

8 eternally Fed Ex\'d somewhere across this country,

9 but we do have them if you want to take them,

10 you\'re welcome to take them with you.

11 We would be happy to Fed Ex

12 them to you and just as a reminder, your notebooks,

13 whatever you need us to Fed Ex back to you, please

14 put your name in them, not just a piece of paper

15 with your name on it because it will get lost and

16 we\'ll make sure we get it back to you just like

17 before.

18 MS. McGRAW: I just \-- I have one

19 concern about the speakers that we bring in in

20 that I would hope that they would have a bigger

21 frame of reference, maybe than just their one

22 school.

23 I think when we had the

24 Division III people come in at Atlanta, it was

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1 good, but I didn\'t know if what they were doing

2 was what everybody in Division III was doing so

3 I think when we start calling people, it would

4 be good if they had a little more frame of

5 reference for a bigger group, if somebody could

6 speak for all of I(A) or I(AA) or Division II

7 because obviously what happens at Notre Dame

8 is not what happens at Northern Illinois and

9 I think for us to hear, you know, from every

10 state or from every school, we obviously can\'t

11 do that. So the more national people, maybe

12 conference commissioners or somebody higher

13 than that, I don\'t know, would be good.

14 MS. GROTH: Again, Ted, should

15 we recommend speakers for our specific areas

16 or overall or how \-- how should we proceed?

17 MR. LELAND: Yes. I don\'t think

18 you need to do it right now, but let Debbie

19 know who you would like to see. We can\'t

20 promise anything because we sort of have to

21 negotiate it out \-- not only ourselves, but

22 other people in Washington, but we\'ll do the

23 best we can.

24 I think we\'re ready to adjourn.

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1 By the way, I think the subcommittees did very

2 well.

3 MS. COOPER: Great job.

4 MR. LELAND: I was a little skeptical

5 about how it was going to go, but you did a great

6 job. Thank you for your input and we\'re further

7 ahead than we were.

8

9 (Whereupon, the proceedings in

10 the above-entiled cause were

11 adjourned.)

12

13 -ooOoo-

14

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18

19

20

21

22

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1 STATE OF ILLINOIS )

) SS.

2 COUNTY OF C O O K )

3

4 I, LORI ANN ASAUSKAS, a notary

5 public within and for the County of Cook and State

6 of Illinois, do hereby certify that heretofore,

7 to-wit, on the 18th day of September, A.D., 2002,

8 personally appeared before me at The Drake Hotel,

9 140 East Walton Place, in the City of Chicago,

10 County of Cook and State of Illinois, The Secretary

11 of Education\'s Commission on Opportunity in

12 Athletics, Chicago Town Hall Meeting, called by

13 the United States Department of Education in a

14 certain cause now pending and undetermined before

15 the appointment Commission.

16 I further certify that the said

17 testimoney was by me reduced to writing by means

18 of shorthand in the presence of said Commission

19 and afterwards transcribed upon a computer, and the

20 foregoing is a true and correct transcript of the

21 testimony so given as aforesaid.

22 I further certify that the

23 taking of the proceedings were pursuant to public

24 notice, and that resent at the taking of the

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1 proceedings were the aforementioned parties.

2 I further certify that I am not

3 counsel for nor in any way related to any of the

4 parties to this suit, nor am I in any way interested

5 in the outcome thereof.

6 In testimony whereof I have

7 hereunto set my hand and affixed my notarial seal

8 this 24th day of September, A.D., 2002.

9

10 \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_

LORI ANN ASAUSKAS, CSR, RPR.

11 Notary Public, Cook County, IL

Illinois License No. 084-002890

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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L.A. REPORTING (312) 419-9292