**Public Lands - Public Trust**

**BLM: Its Origins, Its Traditions**

**A BLM National Training Center Telecast**

**May 14, 1998**

This transcript is from the closed-captioning file produced during the
telecast. It may contain errors and omissions in transcription.

Dir Shea: Good Morning Everyone, and Welcome to the First Edition of
\"Our Public Lands, Public Trust\" Series. Today\'s Program Will Focus
on The BLM\'s History and its Traditions. To Help Me Explore this
Subject Are Four Very Special Guests: Governor Andrus, the Former
Secretary of Interior and Idaho\'s Governor. Welcome, Governor Andrus.

Gov. Andrus: Pat, Thank You Very Much. Great to Be Here with You this
Morning.

Dir. Shea: Glad You\'re Here. Ed Hastey, BLM\'s California State
Director Is Here to Share His More than ‑‑ Dare We Say It? ‑‑ 40 Years
of Experience in The Bureau. Good Morning, Ed.

Hastey: Good Morning. Thank You.

Dir Shea: the New Director of BLM\'s National Training Center, Marilyn
Johnson, Is Also Joining Us. We Appreciate You Venturing into The World,
Marilyn. Glad You\'re Here.

Johnson: Thank You, Pat.

Dir. Shea: and Completing Our Panel this Morning Is Elaine Zielinski,
the State Director For Oregon and Washington. Welcome, Elaine.

Zielinski: Good to Be Here, Pat.

Dir. Shea: this Group Represents More History and Tradition than Perhaps
Any of Them Would Want to Admit. Each of Them Offer a Unique Perspective
on BLM as the Public Land Management Agency. I\'m the New Person at the
Bureau, and the Idea for this Broadcast Came to Me in One of My Many
Middle‑seat Flights. I\'ve Been Impressed Very Sincerely by the Quality
of People Who Make up the BLM, the Breadth of Their Experience, and The
\"Can‑do\" Attitude. With the Great Facility We Have Here at the NTC and
the Outstanding People Who Run It, I Thought a Program Discussing the
History and the Tradition of the BLM Would Give Us All a Better Sense of
Ourselves. To Kick Things Off, First I\'d Like to Ask Everyone,
Beginning With Governor Andrus, to Give Us A Little Personal History of
Where They\'re from and What They Have Been Doing.

Gov. Andrus: If We Don\'t Have To Tell Everything, Let Me Say To You, I
Am a Lumberjack and a Political Actionist. I Grew up During the
Depression. Ed Is about Four or Five Months Older than I Am. So He\'s
the Oldest One\...

Dir. Shea: the Senior Person.

Gov. Andrus: Yes. But I Was Born in 1931, Raised As a Depression Kid out
in the Country in the Middle of the Willamette Valley Where My Dad
Worked as a Lumberjack and Sawmill Man When Work Was Available During
the Depression. It Wasn\'t and Easy Life, but it Wasn\'t That Tough. I
Graduated from High School in Eugene, Went to Oregon State, Went to the
Korean War, Came Back to Idaho Where I Had a Job Offer and Got Involved
in Political Controversy, Found Myself Elected to the State Senate When
I Was 29 Years Old, And 10 Years Later I Was Elected Governor, and When
the Election Of 1970 Took Place, Why, I Met a Man Named Jimmy Carter
from Georgia and Dale Bumpers from Arkansas and Ruben Askew from
Florida. We Became Part of the Freshman Class. A Few Years Later, Then
President‑elect Carter Asked Me To Be Secretary of the Interior. And
That about Gives You the Roundup of How I Served My Four Years There in
the Interior Building and Enjoyed, as You Pointed Out, the Wealth of
Outstanding Employees That We Have in the Federal Government Throughout
the Interior Department.

Dir. Shea: We\'re Glad You\'re Here Today. Elaine, Give Us a Little
Personal History.

Zielinski: I Was Born in Illinois, but My Father Was in The Air Force,
and So We Lived Really All over the World. We Spent Some Time in Japan,
England and Clark Air Force Base In the Philippines. But We Kind of Kept
Coming Back To Illinois to Scott Air Force Base. So I Consider That
Home. And I Went to College in Illinois. My First Job out of College Was
As an Accountant in Chicago. And Then I Got into an Intern Program with
the General Services Administration at That Point, and at the End of
That Program, Selected Going into the Planning and Environmental Field.
Then I Moved from Chicago to Denver and Applied for a Job With BLM after
a Couple of Years There When They Were Staffing up In Their Planning and
Environmental Field. So That\'s How I Got into It.

Dir. Shea: Is That Where You Met Bob Moore?

Zielinski: Yes, He Hired Me.

Dir. Shea: I Think That\'s Another Part of BLM That\'s Amazing, Just the
Interconnections People and How So Many People Help People Move Along.
Speaking of Help, Ed, Give Us a Little History of Yourself.

Hastey: Born in California, And Always Had an Interest in Natural
Resources, Primarily Through My Grandfather, Who Was One of the First
Forest Rangers In California Back in the Late 1890s. One of My
Grandmother\'s Brothers Was Also a Forest Ranger. Then in the Early
\'50s Worked For the Forest Service for a While, Did a Little Smoke
Jumping in Missoula, Then Went To the University Washington, Graduated
in 1957, and There Was Four of Us Was Offered a Job With BLM\... Cannon
Richards, Jim Anderson, and Fred Wolf and Myself. We Didn\'t Know Who
BLM Was. The Industry Was Tight. So We Just Accepted the Jobs. That\'s
How I Got to Work for BLM. Design and Construction Engineer In
California. Got Very Involved in Some of the Recreation Development in
the Early \'60s, and Back to Washington, the Budget Shop, Assistant
Director of Administration, and Then a State Director in California, and
Then Back to Washington as the Associate Director Where I Got Acquainted
with Secretary Andrus At That Time and Then Back to California. So It\'s
Been a Fun Career. I Have Never Had an Unhappy Day Since I Worked with
BLM. There Have Been Some Days Better Than Others, but Can\'t Complain.

Dir. Shea: I\'m about to Do Something Dangerous, and Elaine And Marilyn
Can Appreciate This, Govenor. I\'m Going to Give Ed a Heads‑up To a
Question So He Can Be Thinking about it While Marilyn Is Talking. I
Would Be Interested, Ed, in Thinking Through with You How The BLM You
Came to Is in Comparison to the BLM Today, Because I Do Think You Have
Great Perspective on That. But Be Nice. All Right, Marilyn?

Johnson: I Was Born in 1950 In Chicago, Illinois, but I Was Raised in
Rayville, Louisana, And I Graduated from Grambling College, and My
Career Aspiration after Graduating from College Was to Be a GS‑4 Postal
Clerk Because They Drove Cadillacs at That Time for \$7,000, and People
Bought Their Clothes. So I Thought That Was Really Cool. But I Had a
College Counselor That Intervened and Said, \"I Think You Have Slightly
More Potential than That.\" So He Shipped Me off to Washington, D.C.,
and I Worked In a Number of Agencies, One Being the Department of
Treasury, ASCS, and the Old Civil Service Commission. But I Got in BLM
by Way of a Fellow Named Ron Fox Who Was Good Enough to Take Me in and
Introduced Me to the Bureau. I Started out with Him as a Classifier,
Left There, I for a Little Bit Went to the Peace Corps as a Personnel
Office. Went out to Oregon Where I Met Elaine as a Personnel Officer
There. Went to Arizona as the DSD for Admin. Went Back to Washington and
Had Two Wonderful Jobs, Head of Human Resources and Associate State
Director at Eastern States, and Now I\'m in the Job Of a Lifetime Here.

Dir. Shea: and Tip Is Still Crying ‑‑ \> Johnson: I\'m Sure He Will Work
His Way Through.

Dir. Shea: Maybe We Can Advertise on the Internet like He Has Done with
the Wild Horses. Ed, Why Don\'t, If You Could, Give Us Some Thoughts as
to What The BLM Was Doing and What it Was like When You Started and What
You See it as Today.

Hastey: Well, When I First Started, Particularly in Western Oregon, the
Name of the Game There Was Production. It Was Getting the Trees out of
The Woods, Building Roads, and Very Exciting Times. We Worked Hard,
Played Hard, and Drank Hard, and Had a Good Time Doing Our Jobs. But
Then Things Started to Change. I Think in the Late \'50s and Early \'60s
We Started to Get in The Recreation Business. The Accelerated Public
Works Gave Us a Trememdous Opportunity Under President Kennedy to Really
Do a Lot of Work in Recreation, Developing Public Access. The Outer
Continental Shelf Program Was a Major Change. The National Environmental
Policy Act Brought in Some New Skills, More Sensitivity to What We\'re
Trying to Do on the Ground. Then I Think What Russ Penny Did In the Late
\'60s and Early \'70s With the National Conservation Area and the
California Deserts. So to Kind of Summarize That, I Think We Have Always
Been on Kind of an Improving Curve. I See a Few Bumps in That, the Nepa,
the Flpma, but We\'ve Always Changed, I Think, Each Year. We Continue to
Do Our Job Better, and It\'s Been Kind of an Exciting Career. A Lot of
Things We\'re Doing Today Are What We Did 40 Years Ago, but I Think
We\'re Doing Them Better.

Dir. Shea: One of the Things You Pointed out in the Interview You Did
with Jan Leading up to This Was Pointing out How Congressman Miller
Introduced Legislation in 1961 That Created The Kings Range National
Conservation Area and How That Was Really the Predecessor to Flpma.

Hastey: That\'s Correct. That Was Really an Unusual Piece Of
Legislation. President Kennedy Had Made His State of the Union Message
and Wanted to Give the Public Lands Much More Attention. Secretary Udall
Picked up on That. Clem Miller, Who Was a Congressman, Bought into That
And Developed a Piece of Legislation in \'61 That Resembled Much like
Flpma Did. It Gave Us Authority to Equalize Exchanges, Gave Us the
Authority To Have Mining Regulations, a Lot of the Things That Came from
Flpma. That Was Introduced in \'61. It Was Passed in 1970. And That
Legislation Is Kind of A Hallmark to What We Finally Came up with in
Flpma. And the Other Thing it Gave Us, Which Was Really Unique, Is it
Also Brought in the Private Lands Had to Be in Conformance With the Plan
That the Public Lands Had There.

Dir. Shea: Governor Andrus, When He Introduced Me Last February in
Boise, Slipped, I Think, a Little Bit but Probably Not Too Much, by
Saying I Was The Director of the \"Bureau of Livestock and Mining,\" and
I Came to Find out You Were the Creator of That Phrase.

Gov. Andrus: Well, When I Was Secretary of the Interior, it Irritated
Some People, but I Did Use the Terminology \"Bureau of Livestock and
Mining\" to Get Their Attention, Which it Certainly Did, Including Ed\'s
Over Here, but I Think That\'s What We\'re Talking About, the Evolution
of the History of BLM From 1946 On. We Started out with the Directions
from the Congress That We Were Extracting, We Were Producing, We Were
Utilizing the Resources, and Then We Have Progressed, as Ed Pointed Out,
And I Won\'t Repeat All the Good Points He Made There, but to Where
Flpma Came along in 1976, Signed into Law in October, That Basically the
People Said, via Congress, \"You Shall Now Manage These Lands.\"

Dir. Shea: You Were Secretary When All That Began to Happen, And You
Were Saying Yesterday About the Regulations and That. Can You Give Us a
Little Flavor Of That?

Gov. Andrus: Well, it Was a Tremendous Task in All the Divisions of
Interior, and Particularly in BLM, to Then Draft the Regulations That
Would, in Fact, Implement the Management Scheme of It. Heretofore, it
Was Kind Of, \"Well Those Are Federal Lands,\" When, in Fact, the
Concept Has Come about That They Are Owned By the Public and \"Managed\"
by The Federal Government. And You Have Totally Different Shareholders
Involved, the Recreationalists and the Others, As Well as the Cowboys
Who Graze The Lands and the Timber That\'s Extracted from It, and the
Minerals, and as Ed Pointed Out, Outer Continental Shelf. BLM Has That.

Dir. Shea: Elaine Has Been Heading up with Martha Hahn the Interior
Columbia Basin Project With Great Cooperation with the Forest Service.
Can You Tell Us in the Years You Have Been with the Bureau, since You
Are Much Younger than Ed, What Your Thoughts Are and How The Interior
Columbia Basin Project May Represent a Bit of The Future?

Zielinski: Sure. I Actually Came into the Bureau In That Era That Both
Ed and the Governor Talked About, That Transition, in Dealing with Nepa
And Dealing with Flpma. I Came in in January of 1977. I Think at That
Time Things Were Really Exciting, as They Usually Are in BLM. We Had
Grazing Environmental Impact States, Regional Coal Eiss That Were Going,
Oil Shale In Colorado, but That Era Was Really More Program Focused. We
Were Kind of Looking at Each Of These Entities, the Coal Program, Oil
Shale, Whatever, And Interior Columbia Basin, I Think, Is Really Looking
at That Big Picture, That Broad Scale of An Effort, and There\'s a Lot
of Things That We Have Been Doing, I Think, in BLM over the Years That
Tried That in Different Places, but this One Certainly Is the Biggest
Magnitude and the Partnership with the Forest Service, Looking at over
70 Million Acres of BLM and Forest Service Lands, Is Phenomenal. I Think
That\'s Kind of Where We\'re Going and Where We Should Be Going in BLM.

Dir. Shea: Marilyn Has Had a Lot of Experience with Personnel And Ed
Mentioned the Diversity That Has Come into Be in Terms Of Training and
in Terms of Background. Can You Give Us, since You Have Just Recently
Moved to Phoenix, A Little Sense of What You Think That Represents in
Terms of the Cross‑training That Goes on for People in BLM?

Johnson: I Think We Will Have To Move from the Traditional Occupations
We Have Been Traditionally Training, Range Cons. We Will Have to Go into
More Economists, More Socialologists, Some Occupations Probably We
Haven\'t Even Dreamed of Before, And It\'s Going to Take an Effort On My
Part and the Staff\'s Part Here to Do Some Futuring to Explore Some of
Those Occupations That Are Going to Help Us Go Forth into the 21st
Century.

Zielinski: I Think the Whole Team Concept That Everybody Is Moving to
Requires Different Skills from a Lot of Our Folks, And I Think That\'s
Something We Are Looking at More, but I See That as a Continuing Need to
Train Our Folks in How to Work As Members of Teams, What Consensus and
Collaboration Really Means.

Gov. Andrus: but There Is a Danger You Have to Be Careful Of, and That
Is the Fact You Don\'t Spend All Your Time Planning and Going to
Meetings And Talking to One Another. You\'ve Got to Get out on the
Ground and Talk to Those People That Live on the Ranches, the People Who
Recreate on the Grounds and the Rivers So We Find out What They Want.
And the Forest Service Does More Of It, or More of a Poor Job Than BLM,
but They Spend All Their Time Going to Meetings and Not out Producing
the Timber Programs or the Road Program or What it Might Be, and You\'ve
Got To Get out on That Ground That You Manage So That You Know it And
the People That Use it Intimately.

Dir. Shea: a Friend in BLM in Grand Junction Said That There\'s A Law of
the BLM\... The Closer the BLM People Are to The Land, the More Sane
They Are. And by Inverse Logic, the Further Away They Are, Perhaps The
less Sane They Are. I Have to Say One of My Frustrations as Director Is
I See the Huge Dollar Figures That Larry Bennett and the Budget People
Give Me, and Then I Try To Find out What Actually Gets To the
Operational Side, the People out in the Field, and That\'s One of the
Things I\'m Dedicated To, Is to Trying to Find Ways to Make Sure People
Not Only Are Empowered, the Collaboration Elaine Was Talking About Is
Important, but They Also Have Money. I Mean, That\'s a Very Important
Component to It.

Hastey: I Would like to Add What Elaine Talked about on the Columbia
Basin. I Think That the Wave of the Future Is What Is Happening in
Southern California Where We Need to Empower the Counties to Provide
Leadership in Doing These Multi‑jurisdictional Plans. It\'s Not Right
for Us Just to Plan, BLM and Forest Service Plan, We Have to Bring it
More Into a County‑type Plan That Brings in the Private and State Lands
and Look at the Large Landscapes like the West Mohave And San Diego, and
That Requires A Lot of Commitment of Time, in Some Cases Not Direct
Benefit to BLM, but Has Direct Benefits to The State or Country as We
Look At the Larger Landscape Approaches.

Dir. Shea: Can You Give a Brief Description of the Council On
Biodiversity You Have Been So Involved in California.

Hastey: this Came out What Was Happening in the Northwest With the
Spotted Owl, That We Had to Have a Better Way of Doing Business, and the
Biodiversity Council, Which Has 32 Federal and State Members, Along with
County Associations, Is a Commitment of a Bottoms‑up Type Planning of
Multi‑jurisdictional, Multi‑species, Multi‑habitat Planning, but Looking
at Large Landscapes. The West Mohave Is a Good Example of 9 1/2 Million
Acres. What Is Happening down in San Diego Is Just an Outstanding
Accomplishment of Using the Federal Lands, the State Lands And the
Private Lands, but Developing a ‑‑ You Might Say a Multi‑species,
Multi‑jurisdictional Plan That Really Takes Care of the Critters. The
One Thing That Always Concerned Me Is We Have Done a Lot of Habitat
Conservation Plans Through Fish and Wildlife Service, over 200 of Them,
but Many of Them Were Very Small Postage Stamp Plans That Don\'t Really
Benefit the Species but Benefit a Lot of Consultants. So We Need to Look
at the Larger Trade‑offs, and That\'s the Intent of the Biodiversity
Council, Is Commitment of Multi‑jurisdiction Planning.

Zielinski: I Know from the Experiences in the Northwest With the Forest
Plan, and Even In the Columbia Basin, Which I Think We Have Made Some
Real Inroads in Working More Closely With Local Communities and
Counties, but How Have You Department with the Fear Of, \"Well, If I
Enter into a Planning with the Federal Government, They\'re Going to
Dictate to Me What Happens on This\" ‑‑

Dir. Shea: the 800‑pound Gorilla Will Take over.

Hastey: We Don\'t Make it That Way. Agreements We Signed Turned the
Federal Lands over to the County Planners to Develop That. So the Trick
of That Is Get the Counties to Take That Leadership. That\'s When When
Can You Draw on The Other Skills You Were Talking about. You Don\'t Have
to Have Some of The Skills If the County Has Them in Their Planning
Staff This. This Always Sounds Easy, but the Time Has to Be Right. You
Can\'t Force Them to Do this. But If You Have a Crisis like an
Endangered Species Situation, People Will Come Together to Try To Solve
That, and That\'s Kind Of the American Way. You Have to Have a Crisis
Before People ‑‑

Dir. Shea: the One Thing I Wanted to Point Out, Too, Secretary Babbitt
Created the Resource Advisory Committees, And I Have Been Very Impressed
At the Effectiveness, but to Answer Elaine\'s Question, I Think the
Secretary, and Certainly Secretary Andrus in Talking about His
Experience, Made it Very Clear, There Needs To Be this Cooperative
Relationship Because the Resources Are Going to Require It That Way, but
at the End of The Day, We Have to Make Sure That Federal Authority and
Federal Statutes Are Complied With, and Sometimes That Will Be Done Very
Effectively Through Counties, Sometimes Through the States, but We
Should Not Leave Any Illusion That Somehow a State or County Official Is
Going to Dictate What the Federal Law Is, Because That\'s Our
Responsibility. It\'s a Tough ‑‑

Gov. Andrus: I Think as You Pointed out in February at the Symposium on
Public Lands That You Have to Look at the Good Neighbor Policy and
Science and The Cooperative Agreements That We Can Come up With, and the
Good Neighbor Policy Is the Best Way to Include Everybody In, and If We
Do That, You Alleviate a Lot of the Heartburn and the Pain That Goes On,
and I Have to Say to You in All Candor That That Doesn\'t Happen
Throughout The BLM. There Are Certain Area Managers That Are Continuing
to Try to Dictate to the Locals in a Manner That Is Not Acceptable in
The Western United States, and That\'s Got to Change. Now, Martha Hahn
in Idaho Is Doing a Good Job and Has Done a Good Job in Bringing about
the Cooperation, but We Still Have Some Redneck Cowboys and Some
Hard‑nosed Old Timers in BLM That Are Trying to Be Dictatorial and We
Have to Bring Those Together, in Your Terminology, the Good Neighbor
Policy.

Dir. Shea: Well, See, That\'s Where Marilyn at the National Training
Center Is Going to Make A Big Difference, Because One of The Things That
Came out of the ELT Meeting Two Weeks Ago Was a Commitment to
Reestablish a Program like the Caldron Which Went on up Through the
\'70s That Brought New People into the BLM To Have Them Talk for a Week
or Two about What the BLM Was and To Have People Who Had Had a Lot Of
Experience. So, Marilyn, I Am Interested in Your Thoughts about How the
National Training Center Can Work in Conjunction with the Training
Programs That We\'ve Got.

Johnson: as a Matter of Fact, In All of My Five Days Being Here, I
Discovered That Our Staff, They\'ve Already Gone into Some Efforts to
Alleviate Some Of Those Things You\'re Concerned About. They\'ve
Developed a Course Called the Gateways Community Course, and Some of Our
Behaviors Are Learned over the Years, and it Would Take an Effort to
Unlearn Some of Those Things. This Gateway Community Course Is Designed
to Show Communities, Local Communities, How to Sit Down with Local
Officials and Discuss Some of Their Concerns In a Logical and Formal
Manner Without the Emotion, Without the Dictatorial Behavior, and I Was
Quite Impressed That They Had Already Taken on That. Charles Praglar Is
Heading up That Effort and Nancy Golden, Who Is Our Liaison with Fish
and Wildlife Is Also Working on That. So We Have Taken Steps to Begin
That.

Dir. Shea: One of the Areas I Think Has Great Potential in That Regard,
and I Say this as a Lawyer and with Great Respect For Lawyers, We\'ve
Got Just Too Many Lawyers Making Our Life Difficult, and the Area of
Alternative Dispute Resolution And Learning the Skills of Mediation and
Facilitation, I Think, Is Going to Be a Key Component to These Core
Courses. Now, Some People, Just Understand it like Ed and They\'re Able
to Do It, but the Rest of Us Have to Get Trained a Little Bit, and I Do
Think That That\'s Something That Will Be a Stress Reliever, I Guess Is
a Good Way of Describing It.

Zielinski: One of the Things I like as a Model for Training, Because I
Think the Governor Is Right, a Lot of Our Training Makes ‑‑ People Are
Much More Connected to it If They Get out On the Ground, in Groups, and
It\'s Kind of a Real‑life Situation, and They Learn from That. I Think
Wayne Elmore and the Riparian Group That\'s a Joint Forest Service‑BLM
Group Where They Actually Go out on the Ground, They Look at a Stream,
They Have Constituents out There, the Rancher, the Environmentalists,
Whomever, and Are Talking about Real Life out There and What Can They Do
to Improve That Riparian Area, and They Really ‑‑ It\'s a Training
Exercise and That People Come Away, You Know, Having Learned How Streams
Operate, the Processes, and What They Can Do Better.

Gov. Andrus: Real Life Has Changed from the Disposal Method ‑‑ Keep in
Mind We Gave Away the Homestead Act, the Desert Entry Act, Mining Law of
1872, the Every Other Section to the Railroads. We Were in the Business
of Building a Strong Nation and Giving Things Away. Now We Have an
Entirely Different Concept. That Doesn\'t Mean the First One Was Wrong.
It Just Means We\'re in a Different Mode Now, and it Does Take That
Activity.

Dir. Shea: the Secretary Was Very Complimentary of Wayne and The
Outreach Program. Secretary Andrus Made the Point That the Public
Doesn\'t Make a Distinction Between the Forest Service and BLM or Fish
and Wildlife and National Parks. We Are Government Employees. Where
Wayne Has Been So Successful, and I Really Do Commend That Effort, Is to
Make Sure That Local Communities, and Particularly Local Schools,
Understand What\'s Going On. That\'s Where \"Beyond the National
Parks,\" Our Recent Publication That I Really Hope Everybody Will Have a
Chance to Look At, Again Is an Outreach Kind of Program. And I Think
with the Training Through the National Training Center Will Be Able to
Do Quite A Bit of That. I Would Be Interested in Each of Could You Give
Me an Example of The Most Memorable Character You Met in BLM and How
That Occurred, We\'lland Maybe Start With Ed Here.

Hastey: There\'s an Awful Lot Of Them.

Dir. Shea: Including Yourself, Right?

Hastey: Yeah, but I Think One Of the Ones I Think Would Be Russ Penny,
Who Was the State Director in California from 1965 To 1975. Russ, I
Think, Was Way Before His Time. He Came from the Grazing Service, but He
Was a Great Visionary, and in 1968, Russ Was Working with the Park
Service to Develop a Recreation Study of The California Desert, Which
Involved 12 Million Acres of Public Lands but 25 Million Acres of
Landscape That Was Right next to at That Time about 10 Million People
That Lived in The L.a. Basin. And Russ Identified in That Recreation
Study Kind of the Framework of What the Desert and How it Should Be
Managed in Terms of Off‑road Vehicle Use, In Terms of Having a Law
Enforcement Ranger Force. That Was All Embodied in the \'68 Plan, Which
Became a Foundation For Legislation That Led to the California Desert
Conservation Area in 1976 as Part of Flpma, And Then Later on with the
Help Of Secretary Andrus, 20 Years Ago Last Month, We Swore in Our First
17 Rangers in California Desert. Secretary Had a Little Bit of
Misgivings about to That Start With, but I Think What Happened In Those
Early Years with Russ Penny Were Just Amazing in Terms Of What He
Accomplished in the California Desert. And this Was A Plan That We
Worked on from \'75 to \'79 That Secretary Andrus Approved That Was a
Biregional Plan That Covered Three Deserts, 10 Ecosystems, Three
Transverse Ranches, and it Was a Major Ecosystem Plan Covering That 25
Million Acres, and I Think Russ\' Vision as to What the Public Lands and
How They Ought to Be Managed Was Really Something He Started in \'68.

Gov. Andrus: I Think the Apprehension That You Point To, As You Recall,
Was the Gun‑toting Idea That ‑‑ the Red Lights on the Vehicles. I Said,
We Have to Educate the People as to What We\'re Doing First, and That
Falls Right into Your Realm of Responsibility. But Ed Is Right, We Did
It, and It Worked out Very, Very Well.

Hastey: It\'s the Presence on The Public Lands. I Think Russ\' Vision
Was the Ranger out There on a Day‑to‑day Basis, His Job Is to Spend All
His Time in the Field, and He Becomes the Eyes and the Ears For the Area
Manager. So He Is Reporting Back Things That Are Happening on the Public
Lands and Making Contact.

Gov. Andrus: Many of Our Rural Counties in Idaho, They Call upon the BLM
Rangers When There Is a Violation to Help Them and They\'re Glad
They\'re There, Except for the Owyhee County Area. We Have a Little
Problem There. But That\'s a Different Breed of Cat.

Dir. Shea: Elaine, Who Would You Say Is the Most Memorable BLM Person
You Have Known?

Zielinski: Well, There\'s Two. One of Them Is Arnold Petty, Who Was the
Assistant Director for Administration When I Was Back In D.c., and Who
Was with the Bureau for a Long, Long Time. Ed, I Don\'t Know How Long
Arnold Was There.

Hastey: He Ran the Finance Shop Back in the Early \'60s When I Was in
the Budget Shop.

Zielinski: and I Learned a Lot from Him. He Was Kind of a Legend in the
Field. It Was like Arnold Petty, and it Was Like, Ooh, My, He Is Very
Conservative, He\'s Very Tight With the Money. If You Did Anything That
Was Even the Least Bit on the Edge For this Money and Sort of Stretched
the Regulations, You Thought, Arnold Petty Is Probably Going to Get Me,
Because I Think He Is Back There Looking at Every Single Piece of Paper
and Budget Document. And When I Got to D.c., I Had The Opportunity to
Work Fairly Closely with Him in the Departmental Program, and He Was One
of the Most Caring, Thoughtful, Loyal to BLM People I Have Ever Met. He
Was Just Absolutely Wonderful. So He Was One. The Other One, I Hate to
Admit It, but It\'s this Fellow over Here, Ed Hastey. He\'s a Legend in
His Own Time. I Mean, You Know, 40‑some Years In BLM, and I Found
Through the Years, and I\'ve Used this Many Times, I Can Just Call Him
Up, Ask for Advice, or Sometimes Just When I\'m Having a Lousy Day,
Whine to Somebody Who Is Not Going to Try and Solve My Problems but Will
Listen to Them And Say, \"You Can Do this. You Know, Get on with It,
Elaine, It\'s All Right.\"

Dir. Shea: Ed Is the Only Guy I Have a Conversation with Where There\'s
at Least Two Levels. The First Level Is What the Problem Is He Is
Presenting, and The Second Level Is the Solution He Has Already Arrived
At. Marilyn, Who Was the Most Memorable Person in BLM You\'ve Worked
with?

Johnson: Well, He Is More of A Contemporary Character. Rich Whitley, Who
Is Now the SD For Resources in New Mexico, Used to Work with Me in
Oregon, And I Was Personnel Officer in Oregon, and Rich Came in One Day,
Gave Me the Blues. It Was No Way in the World a Personnel Action Was
Supposed to Take a Month or More to Happen. I Am Trying to Sit and
Explain To Him, this Is Important Stuff, I Have to Be Careful, Blah,
Blah, Blah. He Said, Forget It, I Can Do Your Job. I Said, Fine. So We
Went into Bill Lesher, Bless His Heart, State Director In Oregon at That
Time, and Rich And I Proposed to Him We Switch Jobs for 30 Days, and He
Looked At Us like We Were Crazy, but He ‑‑ Rich Through this Bet Got Me
Introduced to Hands‑on Experience as Area Manager in Salem. I Got a
Chance to Walk the Hood River and Do a Briefing for the Wild and Scenic
Rivers Act, and Needless to Say, Rich Called Me And Said, Give Me My Job
Back. So I Thanked Rich for My Hands‑on Experience in Natural Resources.

Dir. Shea: We Might Try Some Of Those Additional Switches Although I
Think Some People Might Be Hard Pressed to Give Them Up. Governor, What
Memorable Character to You Remember?

Gov. Andrus: as Ed Pointed Out, There Has Been a Lot of Characters in
BLM and in the Situations We Found Ourselves We Had to Deal with. Dick
Hite Is a Name That Some People Might Remember. Talk about an Inside
Character That Ran His Own Show, Did His Own Thing, and Connived to Get
What He Wanted out of the System. That Was Dick. But There Are One or
Two of Those People Around, but I Think The Most Memorable Person Would
Have to Be Plural, the People Inside the BLM, the Professionals There.
You Know, We Hear about a Dick Hite or We Hear about Somebody That Maybe
Is Not the Best Employee. But They Seem to Get Recognition For What They
Did Wrong. And, Pat, You Have So Many Professionals There That Are
Outstanding That All We Have to Do Is Give Them Their Head, and I Will
Give You a Quick Example. Harry Thomas, a Lot of People Don\'t Know
Harry Thomas, but for Those of You in the Washington Area, He Is on the
City Council. He Was a 40‑year Employee of the Department of Interior.
Outstanding Individual and Still Serves the Public. In a Totally
Different Situation. But When We Did the Alaska Lands Bill, Memorable
Characters Were Not Necessarily Our Employees But the People That We Had
to Deal With, Including a Congressman by the Name of Don Young. You Talk
about a Character. Now, in My Opinion, There\'s One. But He Sits as
Chairman of the House Interior Committee Now. So You People out There in
BLM, Be Careful, Don\'t Get Don on the Wrong Side of this Thing. But Me
as an Ex, I Can Say What I Think. Memorable Character, Yes. Ted Stevens,
Outstanding United States Senator. Smart, Tough, Mean, but a Very, Very
Astute Individual Who Was a Great Help to Us. But the Boomers and the
People Up There, Characters, Full of Them. Sometimes I Would Rather Go
up And Deal with the Brown Bear Than Some of the Citizens We Had To Deal
with.

Dir. Shea: It\'s Interesting You Mentioning Senator Stevens And
Congressman Young. Our next Show, Which Is Going to Be on May 29th, and
I Hope Everybody Will Be Able to Watch And Participate, Is Going to Have
Senator Dale Bumpers from Arkansas, Senator Bob Bennett From Utah, John
Leshy, Our Solicitor, and Cynthia Quarterman, and We Are Going to Be
Talking Specifically about That Interface Between the Congress and the
BLM as a Natural Resource Manager. So I Think it Will Be Interesting.
Then Our Third Program, Which Will Be June 18th, Will Feature Secretary
Babbitt, Mike Dombeck From the Forest Service, Jamie Clark from Fish and
Wildlife, Bob Stanton from the National Parks and Myself Talking about
Natural Resource Management in The 21st Century. I Think We\'re Going to
Have Some Good Opportunities to Explore Those Topics.

Gov. Andrus: I Hope You Would Ask the Question about Congress Trying to
Micromanage Interior Instead of Giving the Policy and Then Letting the
Professionals Do What They\'re Hired to Do.

Dir. Shea: One of My Favorite Phrases When I\'ve Gone up to the Hill a
Couple Times, \"I\'m Not Trying to Tell You What to Do.\" But If You
Don\'t Do It.

Gov. Andrus: but If You Don\'t Do it ‑‑

Dir. Shea: and I Do Wanted to Mention Rollie Robison. He Is Someone I
Got to Know When I Was in Utah, and He Was State Director under Governor
Matheson, and the Secretary, Secretary Babbitt, Was Very Explicit I
Could Not Have Any Contact with the BLM until I Was Confirmed. And So
One Day I Call the Secretary up and I Said, Now, Rollie Has Agreed He
Will Take Me out on the Grand Staircase. And So He Said, Well, Ok, but
Just Lay Low. So We Went out and That\'s Really Where the Good Neighbor
Policy Came Along, Because it Struck Me From the Stories He Told Me and
The Stories I Have Heard Since, That the Real Distinguishing
Characteristic of BLM Is Their Can‑do Kind of Attitude and They\'re the
People That Live in The Neighborhood. They\'re the People Who Work with
People. And it Really Is in Many Senses, I Think, the Ambassadors for
the Federal Government to Many Local Communities, Particularly in the
West, Where There\'s Been a Lot Of Hostility and Animosity Generated. So
I Really Commend That.

Hastey: I Would like to Echo That in Terms of What the Governor Said and
You Said, Pat. I Think the Employees over the Last 40 Years I Have Been
Around Have Accomplished a Tremendous Amount, and What Happens Is That
Sometimes We Don\'t Talk about Our Accomplishments. We\'re Always
Worried We Haven\'t Got Something Else Done. There\'s Always So Much to
Do out There. I Think We Need to Spend More Time Reflecting on the
Things We Have Accomplished and Realizing We\'re Not Going to Get it All
Done but We Just Keep Chipping Away at It. This Organization Has Done a
Hell of a Lot with Very Little.

Gov. Andrus: and Make Those Decisions, and Not Have Decisions Held up
Because They\'re Apprehensive Their Chain Is Going to Be Jerked from up
Above or by Some Local Politician.

Hastey: Take a Few Risks.

Dir. Shea: Secretary Babbitt\'s Allocation of the Grand Staircase to the
BLM Was Premised on His Respect for the BLM\'s Ability to Make Something
Work and Make it Adaptive to the Communities That It\'s Supporting, and
I Think What Jerry Meredith Has Been Doing in Utah with Bill Lamb\'s
Help Has Been a Great Example, and as That 1.7 Million Acres Comes to
Fruition, and the Most Recent Announcement Last Week of the Settlement
with Utah Pending the Federal Legislation I Think Is a Good Example of
That Collaborative Effort. I\'d Be Interested If Each of You Would Give
Some Thought and Then Express Yourself as to What You Would Tell the
People Who Have Been in BLM for 15, 20 Years About What You Think
Opportunities Are That Would Be Of Interest to Them, Because I Think One
of the Things That Came out in the Elt Meeting When We Looked at a
Survey Was a Level of Discontent, and I\'m a Heavy User of E‑mail, and I
Have Been Getting a Lot of Very Good Thoughts and Suggestions, People
Appreciative That We\'ve Heard That Message, but I Would Be Interested
If You Could Give Some Thought, Elaine, to What You Tell Your People in
Oregon And Washington or What You Tell The People That Are Watching
Today.

Zielinski: Well, I Feel like The BLM Has Unlimited Opportunities from a
Variety of Angles. I Think, Number One, the Issues That We\'re Dealing
with Are Really on the Front Page of Most Newspapers These Days, That
the Public Is Much More Tuned into Natural Resources, and with the
Growing Populations and the Demands That Those Populations Have on Lands
in General, We\'re Getting a Lot More Attention Than We Ever Had Before.
So I Think from That Perspective, I Believe That Our Employees Have a
Tremendous Opportunity to Influence Public Land Management. One of the
Things I Have Always Liked about BLM Is the Fact That We\'re Not Real
Regimented or Turf Oriented. If You Have an Interest and Are Willing to
Put in Some Time on An Issue and Say, I Want to Work On This, I Think it
Will Have Some Payoff, You Can Get the Nod And People Listen and You\'re
Able to Do That. So Those Kinds of Opportunities Are Wonderful.

Dir. Shea: Good. Marilyn, What Would You Tell People and What Are You
Going to Tell Them at the National Training Center?

Johnson: with My Administrative Background, I Would like to See and
Invite More of the Administrative People to Get Experiences like I Got
on the Hood River. I Think Those People Are Sometimes Lost or Forgotten,
and If They\'re Invited to Participate in More of Our Hands‑on Natural
Resources Experiences, That You Would See A Happier Bunch There. And If
There\'s Anything I Can Do As Director at the Training Center to Enhance
Those Experiences or Opportunities for Those Experiences, I Would like
To Explore That.

Dir. Shea: with Your Recent Experience of Moving, We May Have You Do a
Training Program On Moving. It Is One of My Hopes, Actually, That We
Will Begin to Have Some Rotation Where People Will Be Able to Get Some
Experience in Washington and Then Be Back in The Field So That We
Reestablish That. So Do Think about That Video.

Johnson: Most Definitely.

Dir. Shea: Ed, What Would You Tell People, or What Are You Telling
People?

Hastey: to Echo What Elaine Said, I Think We\'re Only Conconstrained by
Our Imaginations in Terms of What We Can Accomplish. One of the Beauties
of the BLM, We Don\'t Have Any Boundaries, So We Can Go Anywhere We Want
in Terms of Working with Communities or Working with Other
Organizations, and I Think We Have to ‑‑ I Know a Lot of Our Folks Are
Unhappy Because They Don\'t Have the Wherewithal, The Budget and the
Manpower to Accomplish All They\'d like to Do. So They Feel Frustrated
They Can\'t Do More, and I Think What We Have to Do Is Be Positive,
Think about Our Accomplishments, And Understand That We\'re Not Going to
Get Everything Done. The Other Thing I Think We Have To Look to Is
Beyond the Public Lands. I Mentioned Earlier, We Can\'t Just Constrain
Ourselves to Look At Just the Public Lands. We Have to Look at the
Larger Landscapes, Which Involve Private and State and Federal And
Working with Communities, And That\'s Going to Require More Commitment
of Time. I Would Guess 20% of Your Time May Go into Things That Have No
Direct Impact on the BLM but Have a Major Impact in Terms of The Health
of the Larger Landscape, the Ecosystem, and Important to Not Just the
Counties but the State and the Country. So We\'ve Got to Keep Broadening
Our Horizons, and That\'s Going To Take a Lot of Extra Effort on Our
Folks\' Part. I Say Be Positive. Think of What You\'ve Accomplished. And
It\'s a Good Outfit to Work For. I Don\'t Think Our Employees Are
Unhappy with the Job as Much as A Little Frustrated about Not Being Able
to Do More.

Dir. Shea: Governor, You Have Been an Outstanding Public Servant, and I
Think One of the Things I Find Disturbing in Polls That Are Done of the
Young Generation, Kids in High School Or College, Is That Their Apathy,
If Not Antagonism, Towards Being Involved in Public Service. What Would
You Tell the People In the BLM Who Are Obviously Outstanding Public
Servants but Who Sometimes May Be Wondering Why They\'re Doing What
They\'re Doing?

Gov. Andrus: Well, Let\'s Take It a Step Before That and Say to The
Young People That They Can Have a Good Career, like These Professionals
Have, Inside of The BLM. Maybe Our Entry‑level Salary Levels Are Not
Quite What They Should Be, but the Benefits And, As You Work into It,
the Salary Levels Become Competitive, but It Gives You the Opportunity
to Really Feel Good about Yourself. And as Ed Pointed Out, It\'s Much
Broader than Just the Public Land That Goes out into the Horizons and
the Ocean on the Outer Continental Shelf Where Geologists and Mining
Engineers And Everybody Is Involved into The Mineral There. Any Job
Description That You Choose to Follow Is Available to You as a Young
Person, and to Those People That Are Already in Here, I Would Just Say,
You Know, Hang in There and Come up With an Idea as to What You Want To
Do. You as Director, If Could You Possibly with the Cooperation of Omb
Give Them the Flexibility Inside of Their Budget to Take On One of These
Projects That They See, If They Make a Case For It, That They Can Do it
and Prove Themselves. We Lost, Due to Some Activities A Few Years Past,
We Lost a Lot Of State Directors. And Personalities Were Involved. I
Won\'t Go into That. But it Cut Us Deeply at the Top Level with Some
People That I Wish Had Not Left When They Did. But as Usual, the Cream
Comes to The Top, and People Inside Moved Up. It Took Them a While to
Get the Old Curmudgeons like Ed Here to Teach Them the Ropes, but
Doggonit, They Have Proven Their Ability. We Lost Some Time. But I Would
Say, Stay with Us And Stay Involved, and Don\'t Let The Criticism of the
One or Two Bad Apples Slop over and Affect Your Work Product. You Have
Been Very Vocal in the Defense of Your Employees, and I Think, Pat,
That\'s One of Your Major Responsibilities. When Somebody Gets Mouthy
about Our Employees, Somebody Has to Step up and Defend Them, and You,
Secretary Babbitt, Bob Armstrong, the Other People, I Think That\'s
Something We Owe Them.

Dir. Shea: Absolutely. There Is a Deep Commitment on My Part Any Time I
Hear of Anyone In the Public, or an Elected Official Especially, Going
after Our Employee or Our Organization. I Am Going to Step In. I Am Not
Adverse to a Good Verbal Battle, but Sometimes I\'m Called Before the
Congress to Explain.

Gov. Andrus: You Remember the Mining Representative? You Were Courteous
to Point, and Then You Said \"Oh, Knock That Off,\" and You Told Her the
Way It Was.

Dir. Shea: That\'s Correct. There Are Two Things I Do Want To Mention,
and I Stress This, Because I Think as I\'ve Watched People Who Do Enjoy
Their Work With the BLM, They Generally Have the Presence of Mind Each
Day to Do Something for Themselves. I Think Sometimes We Get So Caught
up in a Particular Project That We Don\'t Think Through, \"What Am I
Going to Enjoy Today,\" and I Really Do Hope We Will Be Able to Get
That. Then We Have Tom Fry\'s Effort at Creating Interns, and I Have to
Tell You, We Had Through Michelle Chavez and Elva Garcia Burke, Pamela
Herrera Come to Work in Washington as My Shadow For Three Weeks, and I
Really Commend to Every BLM Employee to Think of Opportunities They Have
At Their Job to Bring Somebody In after School or During Weekends or
Even During the Work Day, Especially in the Summer, And Take Them out in
the Field. It Really Is Not That Hard to Do, and the Rejuvenation You
Feel ‑‑ I Mean, When Pam Left, I Think Everybody on the Fifth Floor
Said, \"Well, Where Is Our Essential Person?\" And I\'m Hoping We Can Do
That More Often as We Move Ahead. Ed You Were Going to ‑‑

Hastey: I Was Going to ‑‑ I Couldn\'t Go Through the Whole Hour Without
Making a Quote of Cannon Richards Who Worked in Washington, with the
State Director in Colorado, and Cannon Always Left with the Employees,
\"You Know, Guys, You Never Had It So Good.\"

Gov. Andrus: but That\'s Back To the Old Days, \"Guys.\" You Know ‑‑

Hastey: These Are \"Guys\" Right Here.

Gov. Andrus: but That\'s the Change, the Evolution Inside of All of
Government, and We Just ‑‑ an Outstanding Group of People.

Dir. Shea: I Have Talked with Mike Dombeck Probably Every Other Day,
Because We Share a Lot of Responsibilities, and That Was One of the
Observations He Made, Is That the ‑‑ and I Thought You Put it So Well,
with The Cream Rising to the Top. I Think Everybody Has to Appreciate
That Those Are Opportunities That Are There, And One of the Things We Do
Want To Do with Marilyn\'s Able Leadership Is to Get Some Training
Programs in Place So That People Wherever They Are in Their Career,
Whether They\'re in The Very Beginning, in the Middle or near the End,
Will Know of Additional Training Programs That They Can Take, and I
Think That\'s One of the Beauties of Having the Almrs System in Place,
Is That We Will Be Able to Exchange Some of Those Informations More
Quickly And Use the Modern Technology to Our Advantage Rather Than, as I
Sometimes Feel, Being Victimized By It.

Zielinski: One of the Things, Pat, That I Wanted to Mention in The Whole
Training Arena, I Think That It\'s Really Important For Us to Look at
Training and Design it So That it Gives People a Lot of Options and They
Can Kind of Choose How to Get These Knowledges or Experiences In
Different Ways, Because I Think What We\'re Finding, and as The Governor
Said, with Our Work Force Now Being Very Diverse, That Maybe the
Traditional Ways Of Getting Training or Getting Experience Don\'t Fit
Everybody Anymore, and We Really Need to Look at Kind of a Whole Kind of
Laundry List Of, You Could Do This or Do this or this or This, And You
Kind of Pick the One That Best Suits Where You\'re At, You Know, in Your
Life, in Your Needs. But it Also Benefits the Agency Because You Are
Getting That Experience That You Need to Be a Better Employee.

Dir. Shea: the Thing That Struck Me in Portland When I Came out There to
See You and Chuck and Everybody Was the Amount of Interaction That Was
Going On, and I Hope One of the Results of this Broadcast Will Be for
People in Their Own Office to Begin Talking and Having Conversations
about Opportunities They See or Problems They See, and That Kind Of
Openness and Collaboration Really Will Make a Difference.

Hastey: Don\'t Hesitate to Take That Idea and That Activity Up to the
Upper Level to Where You Have the Concurrence from Your Supervisors to
Let You Go Ahead and Develop That.

Hastey: this Is Where I Think The Managers Really Need to Spend More
Time with Employees In Developing These Individual Development Plans So
They Can Tailor the Training Programs Because There Is a Whole Range Of
Opportunities, and One of the Things I like to Always Push That We
Don\'t Do Enough of Is Just Good On‑the‑job Training Where People Are
Tied into a Person That Has Experience, They Can Really Get out on the
Ground, People like with Your Folks up There in Oregon, to Do That. But
the Individual Development Plan That ‑‑ and That Takes Some Quality
Time, Sitting down with The Employee and Working Those Things Through
and Not Just Waiting and Getting a Catalog And Picking What You like to
Go To. But Try to Put Some Thought into It.

Dir. Shea: I Don\'t Think There Is Any Training as Good as
Self‑initiated Training, and So When Somebody Sees an Opportunity, I
Think That\'s ‑‑ I Think, Elaine, Your Words Ring In My Ears, Take the
Initiative, Be Creative, Think a Little out Of the Envelope, and I Think
Marilyn\'s Example of Switching Jobs for a Week, I Mean, the Supervisor
‑‑ Let the Supervisor Know. I Was at a Meeting Two Weeks Ago Where the
Vice‑president Was, And We Actually Were Able to Change a Policy Within
Seven Days Where We Had Been Shipping Horses in These Double‑decker
Trailers and it Had Come to My Attention Through Henry and the Horse
Program That That Was Causing the Horses Some Problems. So We Literally
Were Able to Change It. But Only Because We Thought Outside the Box. So
We Need to Be Able to Do That.

Johnson: Speaking of Outside The Box, the Other Thing I Would Like to
See Maybe Our More Senior Managers Take a Good Look At, Is We Have a
Different Set Of Employees Now. We Have Things like Work at Home Now,
Programs Now, We Have like Shared Jobs Programs Now, We Have Sabbatical
Programs for People, and That Can ‑‑ and Back In Ed\'s Day ‑‑ the More
Senior People\'s Day, it Was \"Go to Work And Come Home When You Got
Through Doing Your Job,\" and It\'s Much Different Now. I Think There
Needs to Be a Greater Sensitivity on the Part Of Our Managers That
You\'ve Got A Different Work Force. They\'re More Family Oriented.
They\'re Going to Spend More Time With Their Children. They\'re More
Health Conscious. They Are Going to Spend Some Sometime on Themselves.
We Have to Build That into Getting the Job Done Also.

Dir. Shea: We\'re Coming down To near the End of the Program, And I\'d
like You All to Think of What You Would like to Say as a Conclusion. I
Do Want to Come Back to a Theme That Elaine Introduced, And That Is,
What Do You Think On the Long‑term? For Instance, I Have Introduced The
Idea Through the Three Themes of Being a Good Neighbor, Practicing Best
Science, and Promoting Multiple Use What I Call the Michael and Paul
Standard, My Two Boys, and How I Hope in 30 Years When They\'re Raising
Kids and Worrying about Bills and Things like That That They\'ll Be Able
to Look at Some Of the Landscape That Is under The BLM\'s Jurisdiction
and Take Pride in the Fact That Our Family in Moving Back to Mclean Did
Make a Difference with the Invaluable Help of Everybody in The BLM. I
Can\'t Stress That Enough. I Have Been Just Consistently Impressed, and
it Even Makes the Middle Seat of the Back of the Airplane Seem a Little
Bit More Comfortable, but That\'s a Very Important Thing to Me, Is to
Think of What Legacy That We Are Going to Leave for the Responsibilities
That We\'ve Had As Stewards of the Land and Natural Resources That Are
under The BLM Jurisdiction. Governor, Have You Got Some Thoughts, Sir?

Gov. Andrus: Well, I Think You Phrased it Very Well, and it Comes Back
To, I Don\'t Know Who I\'m Quoting, but We Want to Leave this World in a
Better Condition than When We Arrived. That\'s What You\'re Talking
About. But There\'s Lots of Things That We Have the Opportunity to Do,
And the Environmental Protection Act, When Epa Came into Being And We
Did the Eiss on the Outer Continental Shelf and Other Areas, We Started
Taking a Look At Science, but There Are Still Things We Have the
Opportunity To Do. We\'ve Got to Look at Different Levels of Aum Impact
on the Ground, the Riparian Areas Can Be Protected, You Could Take the
Aum Money and Fence That and Leave the Alleyways. Let Your People Come
up with the Constructive Suggestions, and Then Perhaps We Could Take,
\"We,\" Could Take it to the Congress and Sell the Concept For the
Amendments to the Mining Law of 1872. Not Repeal It, but Amend It. Take
out the Onerous Parts of It. And the Rangeland Protection, Outer
Continental Shelf, Getting Some of Those New Areas Looked At for
Hydrocarbon Potentials And Others. There\'s a Lot of Opportunity out
There, and I Would Just Say You Have Encouraged Your Employees To Do It,
and I Would Say Don\'t Take \"No\" for an Answer.

Dir. Shea: and Make Sure That We Support Each Other. For Instance, the
Oil and Gas People Have Done an Extraordinary Job Some of the Leases
Recently, and We Really Need to Commend Them, but at the Same Time, They
Then Equally Need to Be Supportive of the Range People and the Range
People Need Especially of the Recreation. So There Is That Mutual
Support. And If We Support Each Other, Then We Will Succeed. If We Begin
Sort of Nipping Here And Yon ‑‑

Gov. Andrus: Remember, the General Public out There Doesn\'t Know the
Difference Between the Brown Trousers and Green Trousers, and We All
Seem to Be Rolled into One Ball, and So We Do Have to Work, as Ed Says,
With the Other Land Managers in A Given Area, Ecosystem, or However You
Want to Choose to Say It.

Dir. Shea: Elaine, What Would You Say?

Zielinski: Well, I Certainly Agree with a Lot of What the Governor Has
Said, and I Would Say for Me We\'re Making Really Good Progress in
Working Together in an Interagency Environment, and the Forest Plan Was
Kind of the Jump Start to That, and One of the Things That Always
Resonates with Me Is When The President Says That He Wanted All of the
Agencies to Speak with One Voice. That Is an Incredibly Difficult Task
to Do with Our Different Missions and Some of the Different Legislation
That We Operate On. But I Think That\'s Where We Really Owe it to the
Public to Sit down and Try to Do That as Federal Agencies First And, You
Know, Kind of Agree on Goals and How We\'re Going to Get There. So
That\'s a Really Important Mission, I Think, for the BLM And One That I
Feel Very Confident Our Employees Are Taking on and Working Together
More as Members of Teams and Not, as You Said, Kind of Divisive.

Dir. Shea: Good. Ed?

Hastey: I Would Be a Little Repetitious. I Think the Legacy of the
Future Is to Really Continue These Multi‑jurisdictional Plans Where We
Have Heavy County Involvement Dealing with Private Lands along With the
Public Lands, and I Look at the Things That We\'ve Done. In a Preserve,
We Have Eight Different Landowners There, Along with a Private Land
Owner Who Wants to Be a Partner. We Manage it as One Project. The Work
That\'s Going on the West Mohave. We Have Recovery Plans Now for The
Tortoise Throughout the Whole Mohave Region There. I Commend the People
in Arizona, Nevada and Utah and California. Within the next Year We\'ll
Have The Tortoise Recovery Plans Completed. I Think That\'s a Major
Accomplishment for a Species That Is in Pretty Tough Shape, And I Think
this Is Only ‑‑ Only Come by this Working with Counties and the States
and Other Federal Agencies to Make These Things Happen.

Dir. Shea: I Took Real Pride In the Secretary\'s Announcement Last Week
of the Delisting of Some of the Endangered Species, And I Think with Our
Help and The Help of Other Agencies, We\'ll Be Able to Move Ahead on
That. Marilyn, What Would You Have to Say?

Johnson: the Thing That Impressed Me So with this Agency When I Came on
Board in the Midst of Getting Things Done, They Had Time to Give a Hug.
So I Hope That in the midst of Getting the Job Done, and Being
Automated, We Don\'t Forget to Give Each Other a Hug and Say, \"Job Well
Done!\" And So I Would Say Give a Hug.

Dir. Shea: Good. That\'s Important. I Have Got Before Me a Shirt From
Montana, and Each of the Participants Today Will Be Getting this
T‑shirt. It Shows the \"Eye of the Needle,\" and I Think Everybody Was
Shocked When the Vandals Destroyed That, and We Have Put Out a Reward,
but We Have Hadn\'t To Pay it Yet, but I\'m Hoping We Will Be Able to Do
That. We\'re Working with Some Private Groups to Restore this near the
Visitor Center There in Montana. But We Had a Contest That Larry
Hamilton Started in Montana with A High School Winner Who Painted This
Picture and We Had a Wonderful Meeting with Senator Mansfield Where We
Showed Him This, and I Would Encourage People to Think of Those Kind of
Innovative Approaches Where Something Bad Happens, and Then Instead of
Cursing the Darkness, We Light a Candle and We Say, \"We\'re Not Going
to Let Those People Get Us down. We\'re Going to Come Back and Going to
Make a Difference.\" So I Think We Can Do That. Now We\'ll Be Giving
Those out. And Again, I Hope That People Will Look at \"Beyond the
National Parks.\" It Really Is a Wonderful Opportunity for People to Go
out And Recreate on the Land That They Administer, and it Probably Would
Be a Good Idea, Too, If They Invited a Friend from the Forest Service or
Fish and Wildlife or National Parks or Any of the Other Federal
Employees Who Might Be Able to Share That Experience. I Think That\'s
Actually One of The Things, Governor, You Did in Idaho When You Were
Governor, Was to Bring People out.

Gov. Andrus: Yes, We Did That, and It\'s Important That You Have All of
Them Involved. But I Think You Look at the Numbers That You\'ll Find
That You Have as Many Visitors on BLM Land as They Have in the National
Parks and Probably More Because ‑‑

Dir. Shea: and It\'s Growing.

Gov. Andrus: Different Types Of Users. We Have Left out One ‑‑ in the
Quick 30 Seconds ‑‑ the Justice Department Has Not Been Mentioned Here,
but the Justice Department Is Your Lawyers That Give You Your
Evaluation, and I Think They Have to Be Brought Into this Act to
Recognize That Good Science and That the People On the Ground Know What
They\'re Talking about Before They Come Down with a Legal Edict That We
Will or Will Not Represent You. After All, You\'re Client and They\'re
the Lawyer, and Justice Department Can\'t Be Left out of This Mix and
Would Hope That John Leshy and the People Back There in the Solicitor\'s
Office Would, in Fact, Sit down with Their Colleagues over There and Be
the Good Neighbor Policy on Pennsylvania Avenue.

Dir. Shea: We\'re Going to Get Ed to Have a Law Course for Lawyers, Both
in the Solicitor\'s Office and in the Justice Department.

Hastey: One Way to Accomplish Part of Is That to Get Some of These U.s.
Attorneys ‑‑ We Find That the Success of That Is Getting Them out on the
Land So They Can See the Issues and Then The Light Comes On, and It\'s
Pretty Hard Sitting in an Office Reading Legal Briefs. Like You Said,
Not Only the Other Resource Agencies, but It\'s Good to Get Our Legal
Folks Out There.

Gov. Andrus: an Example, We Don\'t Have Time and I Won\'t Do It Here,
but Where All of the Forest Service Scientists, All Of the BLM
Scientists and the Private Operators and the Mining Venture Agreed upon
a Solution To Environmental Problems and Justice Wouldn\'t Let Them Do
It. Crazy!

Dir. Shea: I Want to Follow Up on Ed\'s Theme, and this Will Be an
Action That Maybe Will Result from the Broadcast, and That Is to Ask
Each of the State Directors to Make Sure in the Next Two to Three Months
That They Take the U.s. Attorney out To See Some of the Lands Featured
in \"Beyond National Parks\" or That They\'re Particularly Proud of or
That There\'s a Particular Problem With, Because I Think They Would Be
Surprised. And Not Just the Boss, but the Actual Staff Attorneys,
Because Those Are the Ones Who Can Make Your Life Very Difficult, or
They Can Also Call You up and Say, \"Hey, We Have a Solution.\" Rene
Stone in the Solicitor\'s Office Did That the Other Day. She Called Me
up and Said, \"I Know You\'ve Been Concerned about This, and Here\'s the
Answer.\" So it Really Does Work.

Zielinski: Pat, I Thought We Weren\'t Going to Get an Assignment out of
this One Interaction. I\'m Not Disappointed ‑‑

Dir. Shea: It\'s Outside the Office. So I Don\'t Consider That as an
Assignment. It Is Interesting and I Do Appreciate this. I Do Hope People
Will Think About the Broadcast next. It Is Going to Be Coming from
Phoenix on May 29th, and We\'ll Feature Senator Bumpers and Senator
Bennett. Both of Them Have a Lot of Experience in the Congress. Senator
Bumpers Is Retiring this Year. And John Leshy, Who You Mentioned, Always
Has Some Great Observations to Make. And Then Cynthia Quarterman Has
Been Dealing Extraordinarily Well with the Offshore Drilling. So We
Appreciate Your Participation. That about Wraps it up for the First
Edition of \"Public Lands, Public Trust.\" I Would like to Thank
Governor Andrus, Elaine Zielinski, Marilyn Johnson and Ed Hastey For
Sharing Their Time and Perspective. I Hope That You Will Keep up the
Dialogue We Have Started Here Today. I Encourage You to Think of How The
Traditions of Your Office Could Be Highlighted and Shared With Those You
Work with. We Can and Should Learn from Each Other. As We Continue to
Learn, I Am Firmly in the Belief That We Will Discover Within Ourselves
And the BLM Ways to Do Our Job And to Find Satisfaction. Our next
Telecast in this Series Is Called \"Checks and Balances.\" We\'ll
Explore the Relationship Between the Legislative and Executive Branches
of the Federal Government as They Relate to Natural Resource Management.
Our Guests Will Include Senator Bennett, Senator Bumpers, John Leshy and
Cynthia Quarterman as The Director of the Mineral Management Services.
Until next Time, Please, Take Care and Enjoy Yourself.