**Announcer**: Selma to Montgomery. Interviewee: Jamie Wallace. Take 5.

**Q:** So you were telling me more about Baker and King and why King was
put in jail.

**Jamie Wallace:** Uh.. there's a letter from the Selma jail and it-- it
seems uh.. that M- Mr. Baker got wind that Sheriff Clark was going to
arrest Dr. King and put him in the county jail which is actually just
one floor above the city jail in the uh. public safety building- which
now is the public safety building. And Mr. Baker went to Dr. King or his
people and said that he was going to arrest Dr. King because he knew
what would happen to him in the city jail but he couldn't guarantee what
might happen to him in the county jail. So that's the story. And Mr.
Baker stuck by it all the way until his death. But uh.. there were a lot
of differences of opinion like that between the sheriff and between the
public safety director over how things should be done. Uh.. and during
the days of demonstrations the city was responsible for getting the
crowds to the courthouse and the sheriff was responsible for \'em once
they got on the courthouse square because by state law that's his
jurisdiction. And uh.. it- you know, a lot of people don't understand
too that all of this was not done in a vacuum. There would be meetings
late at night such as midnight between the SELC and the uh..- the law
enforcement people and- and say, okay, where are you- where are you
gonna march tomorrow? Uh.. and, you know, they'd say we wanna march down
Selma Avenue. Uh.. how many abreast? Three abreast. Well could you do
two abreast so we don't have to block traffic? There was a lot of give
and take on-- on the things like that that went on so they weren't
operating in a vacuum. But the public didn't see that. They didn't
understand that that was happening.

**Q:** So then there's Bloody Sunday and then there's the national
reaction. Boy that must have been something. What do you recall?

**Jamie Wallace:** It really was cause like I said earlier, I didn't
uh.. complete my statement, but we had been told that Dr. King had
confided to some of his people that he had been unsuccessful in Selma
because the city had used non-violence against non-violence and much
like Albany, Georgia, had done earlier you see. And uh.. he had confided
in some people that he was thinking about withdrawing from Selma and
going on maybe to Jackson, Mississippi or Memphis, Tennessee. But this
uh.. ended that once it happened on Sunday cause Dr. King was not there
and we had learned early on that no big events happen without Dr. King
being there. Course once Dr. King left uh.. to go back to Atlanta to
preach that Sunday in his church there the national media basically took
the weekend off so there was very little national media there for this
event on Sunday. In fact I think there was only one uh.. television tape
made of it. And uh.. but-- but that got on NBC and President Johnson saw
it on the nightly news and became uh.. furious and it-- he had been so
distracted by the Vietnam War that he hadn't really paid much attention
to the civil rights movement in- since the Public Accommodations bill
had passed. And uh.. this redirected his attention to- and he
immediately moved to get with uh.. Senator Everett Derkson \[ph?\] who
was a leading republican to effect a bill that uh..-- that would uh..
give voting rights to-- guarantee voting to uh..-- to blacks and-- and
other minorities in 16 southern states. Also it really was a bill that
was-- while it affected 16 southern states that actually gave voting
rights to the entire nation, because if you remember, prior to that time
there had never been a black mayor in Cleveland, Newark, New Jersey and
other cities that were predominantly minorities. Well now a short time
later there was a black mayor of Cleveland and Newark and then, of
course, a little bit later in Chicago. All of those guys were from
Alabama or had Alabama roots. Detroit for example: Coleman Young was-
had lived in Selma and Tuscaloosa and so it was amazing to me that uh..
in-- in the face of what happened in Selma that some of the people that
uh..-- that got rewards from it were guys who had roots in- in Alabama.

**Q:** Yeah I know I had heard that before. So then King issues the call
for people to come to Selma.

**Jamie Wallace:** Yeah, a- and the next day train- uh.. tr- train loads
but plane loads of people were coming in. The- the preaches were coming
in, the uh.. congressmen were coming in. In fact Dr. King let a group of
congressmen- of uh.. eight to 10 congressman that uh..- that just
suddenly appeared on Ms. Jackson's doorstep one day with very little
notice saying fix us some food. So she had to, you know- she had a big
group in and uh.. but that's the way Dr. King was sometimes. He would
just call on short notice and say we need food for so and so. But uh..
they came and then course the- three weeks later uh.. under the-- under
the uh.. guidance of uh.. federal- federalized national guard uh..
troops uh.. the uh..-- the march got off with about 20,000 people uh..
for the first leg of it. And, of course, the- the court order reduced
the size of the number of marchers to 50 once it got about five miles
outside of Selma. You have to understand that Governor Wallace's uh..
stance on this was I can't allow you to march from Selma to Montgomery
because it's so uh.. dangerous. It was a two-lane highway and about 10
miles of it was through a swamp. It was a federal highway; the-- one of
the most used coast-to-coast highways in the United States. It was
before the day of the interstate. So there was a bit of uh..-- of truth
to what he was saying. But, you know, we knew that he didn't want it
happen period. So he could use the infrastructure part as a reason for
not allowing it. But then the- the federal judge said 50 can march at a
time and, of course, they swapped of and- and there were a lot of people
who were able participate before it got to Montgomery.

**Q:** You were there covering it?

**Jamie Wallace:** We- we followed it to the county line and- and
collapsed. We give out. But uh.. the uh..- we- we had coverage of it the
rest of the way as well but we didn't physically cover our self.

**Q:** Well your story covered it, I've seen those. Very good. Cold too
wasn't it?

**Jamie Wallace:** Not too bad. Uh.. the first-- the Bloody Sunday was
probably in the 50s. It was kind of overcast. It was a typical March
day; not a whole lot of wind. Uh.. I'm sure there was some days uh..--
my memory's kinda dim on the weather next three weeks but I'm sure there
was some days then where you had some pretty good March winds and so
forth that were kind of bone chilling. But uh.. I don't recall being
uh.. very- you know, uh.. very chilled.

**Q:** Well something's just slipped by that I think other people don't
realize. Really, it's a long way to Montgomery.

**Jamie Wallace:** It is. It's 50 miles and only probably-- at least 15
to 20 of that was not four-lane highway; it was two-lane highway.

**Q:** So the people who marched it took them how long?

**Jamie Wallace:** Well they left on Sunday and they actually got to
Montgomery about Wednesday and they marched to downtown Montgomery on
Thursday I believe it was. So they camped out three nights of Mon- uh..
Sunday, Monday and Tuesday nights.

**Q:** Were you there for that?

**Jamie Wallace:** No I was not there. Bob Mance \[ph?\] was there for
that.

**Q:** So there must have been a real strong impulse in the community
here after these hoards of people. Is that true?

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, it was kind of a collective sigh of relief
that-- that uh.. with the exception of Reverend Reed \[ph?\], he was the
only person who was hurt in the city of Selma and of course he died as a
result of uh..- a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time in
front of a rather seamy bar and these guys came out and-- and assaulted
him and uh..- and he died as a result of that. So, that was the only
serious incident that occurred, you know, in this period of time in the
city of Selma and one of which was very regrettable of course. Uh.. he
and, as I said, many other ministers from throughout the nation had come
in during that period of time between uh.. the first Sunday in March and
the third Sunday in March. And of course there was the- after the march
in the uh..-- the case of Ms. Louzo, Ms. Thila Louzo \[ph?\] in Lawrence
County, uh.. was actually killed by three-- or three clansmen who were
from Jefferson County. Had no relationship to Selma or Montgomery or
Dallas county or Lawrence county. And one of them happened to be a FBI
informer, Garry Thomas Row \[ph?\], who later uh.. was helpful in-- in
the prosecution of them.

**Q:** The general feeling must have been that and maybe not from Clark
but from Baker, from others, that, you know, the process had got to get
started to fix this huh? Or was it?

**Jamie Wallace:** It- it was uh.. expected to be a protracted thing
because your next election was not until 19 uh.. 68 and it was uh..
pretty obvious that in 1968 there would be a lot of new black registered
voters and there would be a lot of change in the political waterfront.
So as politicians are out to do in ensuing uh.. time they begin to form
alliances, white and black politicians, and-- and uh..-- and uh.. you
know, some of the whites were reelected and uh.. some of them were not.

**Q:** Smitherman \[ph?\] sort of survived all of this.

**Jamie Wallace:** Smitherman's is an amazing politician. He survived it
all. And, you know, he will tell you today that he was a segregationist
student in the sixties. He would tell you that he was wrong. And while
he let- Mr. Baker was such a powerful person that Mr. Baker was able to
say to the mayor, look this is the way we're going to do this. And while
the mayor probably didn't exactly agree with him every time he let him
do it that way. And in fact \<clears throat\> Mr. Baker before- when Dr.
King announced he was coming to Selma, Mr. Baker called uh.. then uh..-
I mean the uh.. attorney- former attorney general uh.. Robert Kennedy in
Washington and he said uh.. Senator- he was Senator Kennedy then, he
said, "Senator Kennedy, Dr. King is coming to uh..- to Selma to lead
uh.. voting rights demonstrations." He said, "I just need to know how to
handle this." Well Mr. Baker has defied all uh.. logic for a southern
person who-- well he wasn't a politician at that time but he was in a
public office almost. He flew to Washington and met with uh..-- with
uh.. Senator Kennedy and the attorney general Nicholas Catsenback
\[ph?\]. Senator Kennedy- he said, "Senator Kennedy how should I handle
this cause you've been familiar with Dr. King's movement and so forth."
He said, "Use the marshmallow theory." Mr. Baker said, "Sir, I don't
think I know what you're talking about." He said, "If you push a
marshmallow against a solid brick wall and you pull it back you leave
some marshmallow. If you push a marshmallow against something that
gives, you don't leave marshmallow." He said, "I understand what you're
saying: non-violence against non-violence." He flew home and by the time
he got home there was a firestorm of-- of political outcry. Wilson
Baker's been to Washington to meet with those Kennedy's you know. And so
in the face of that the mayor I'm sure was-- was a little bit less than
happy about it but anyway it happened that way and-- and it didn't-- as
far as Mr. Baker was concerned he didn't bother him at all. But I'm sure
it did the mayor a little bit. But uh.. a lot of things like that
occurred during that period of time that uh.. now you look back on them,
you think, you know that was really amazing.

**Q:** And what we're trying to present to a lot of the youngsters who
will come to see this is that history lives. You know, stories live and
these were amazing times and through interviews with casts like you and
other people you get a sense and a feeling for all of this. The title of
this is Never Lose Sight of Freedom. It's kind of like a slogan and a
banner and it's a good title. People who were in the movement, black
people, do you think that freedom was what they were about. Is that a
decent charge? Is that a good charge to be laying out towards young
people, black and white, who come in to this today? What are your
reflections?

**Jamie Wallace:** Well, I think you have to look at it from this
perspective: the person who probably had more to do with uh..- with
voting rights than any other person in this country was President
Truman. Now you will not find any where in-- in history that that's
said. But it was President Truman that desegregated the military. A lot
of these black guys that fought in the Korean war side by side with
white guys came home and said I can fight and put my life on the line
for this country but I can't vote. And here's my friend that I had in
Korea that's white and he can vote. So that was really the genesis of
the voting rights march- uh.. struggle, was a lot of those veterans came
home and asked that question. And they were among some of the first that
went to try to register to vote. And I also think about, you know, there
were a lot of black people that couldn't register to vote but, excuse
me, there were also a lot of white- poor whites that couldn't register
to vote; uneducated. I know I graduated from the University of Alabama
in uh..- in 1958 and a short time later I went to register to vote. Well
when a friend of mine to me, he said, "You're going to register to
vote," he said, "you better make sure you know the preamble of the
constitution." And I said, "What?" He said, "You- you may be asked." So
when I went to register to vote uh.. in another county, not in Dallas
county, I went in and I filled out the paperwork and they said, "Do you
know the preamble of the constitution?" And I said, "Oh yeah." So I
recited it. Well can't you imagine a person who had an eighth grade
education, goes in, can barely fill out the paperwork and they go in and
ask him to quote the preamble to the constitution. It's not gonna
happen. But there- there was-- there was that kind of thing that went
on. There was the fact that uh..- that a person who appeared to register
to vote had to have a voucher. Now that doesn't mean money that means
that you had to have another registered voter who would appear with you
to vouch for you. Well if there were only 300 black registered voters in
Dallas county how many of them were willing to go to the courthouse and
vouch for somebody else to register to vote. They had to be a landowner,
had to be all this kind of stuff. So there was a voucher system that
probably had more to do with keeping people from registering to vote
than a lot of other things. Poll tax was a nuisance. That was all it
was. It wasn't a real big factor. So uh.. there were several ways that
people were kept from re\-- plus just physically the- uh.. under law
Board of Registrars in Alabama could meet to accept registrations once-
one day out of the month. And they had one other day out of the month
that they could use for administrative work to process the applications.
Well with the cumbersome application they had a- about the most they
could take in one day is 12 people. So you got 200 people lined up
outside the Dallas county courthouse to register to vote and you got
three people in there, registrars in there, trying to process this and
you said to these people well how long is it gonna take? How many years
is it gonna take to register those people if you're only able to do
about 12 a day. So they were hamstrung. I'm not saying that they were
real energetic about trying to register people but they were hamstrung
by state law as well.

**Q:** So, last words, final thoughts reflecting on all of this or
something that I might have missed that you would want to add to this.

**Jamie Wallace:** Well one of the things that uh.. I think Selma has
provided for the nation is that it's provided a microcosm of the new era
of politics in the south, uh.. where there has to be bridge building,
and we haven't had as much of that as we should have, but there also has
to be some give and take between all parties involved. And uh.. the
future of the south, the future of Alabama, the future of Dallas country
and Lawrence and Montgomery county rest in the fact of us being
effective in building teams regardless of the racial make up of that
team for the betterment of our people who are poverty ridden,
unemployed, and in- in so many ways need assistance. We've got to do
that. If we don't do that then we will continue to fall behind the rest
of not only Alabama but the nation.

\<crew talk\>

**Announcer:** Selma to Montgomery. Interviewee: Dorothy Frazier. Take
five.

\<crew talk\>

**Q:** How did you get involved in all this civil rights stuff?

**Dorothy Frazier:** Well I got involved because I lived in Montgomery,
Alabama and my parents were involved in the- uh.. the bus boycott. So I
grew up in a household that uhm.. we knew that individuals in the black
community didn't have the rights that- that the whites had. And when I
attended Alabama State it was just a natural progression cause I walked
on campus, I- I graduated in May of '64. I walked on campus, I went- I
went-- I attended summer school. And I saw that Alabama State's campus
wasn't like the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa. So I- I started in
August and in September I started \<laughs\>- I started to do what was
natural for me: protesting. So that's how it actually got started.

**Q:** Was the university a kind of seedbed for...

\<crew talk\>

**Q:** How did you feel about that answer? Do you want to do that again?

**Dorothy Frazier:** Well how I got started I graduated high school in
1964 and I entered Alabama State August of the same year. And I had
traveled to the University of Alabama campus to see and Alabama State's
campus and I saw that the two just weren't the same. And then I started
uhm.. to organize. That's how it started for me.

**Q:** Well, you were telling me earlier that organization and
protesting was sort of in the spirit of your family.

**Dorothy Frazier:** Yes. My family, on my mother's side especially,
they're from Pike county, Alabama. On uh.. her mother's side they
started their own school for Negroes. And uhm.. the- in the- in the
county because- and these people didn't even have-- they hadn't even
graduated from high school, nothing, they just started a school where
the family was attending. And I found that a lot of that was taking
place in Alabama that families were starting their own schools to
educate. I- my grandmother on my mother's side uhm.. really believed in
education so it started way back and when my parents moved to- my father
ran away from Pike county, cause it was really bad down there, and he
moved to Montgomery uhm.. joined the army at 15. Uhm.. and after he-
after the war he came back, married my mom, and they settled in
Montgomery and- in a place called Belle Aire \[ph?\]. It's over by
Alabama State. It's non-existent now. But that's where Nat- Nat King
Cole used to live, uh.. Centennial Hill and all of that. So we grew up
around that and uh.. my father was a master brick mason and we traveled
a great deal as a child and I got an opportunity to go to Chicago,
Indiana, Kentucky. So I had a home in the south, I had a home in the
north, and I was exposed to the finer things. Then at 15 they brought me
back to Montgomery and I have to admit uh.. I dumb it down because
honestly the kids in the north were a lot more uh.. advanced so I dumb
it down but then I did graduate from Carver \[ph?\] and then I entered
Alabama State. But all through that uhm.. it was a matter of calling on
what my family background was about and I saw that Alabama State was
just not up to par in terms of the finances and uh.. I'm not gonna say
it about some of the instructors because some of the instructors were
the ones that really saved my behind when I was out there protesting and
didn't fail me. So the- the Alabama State's uh.. instructors some of
them had very uh..-- a long history- histories of working, you know,
for-- for the cause.

**Q:** I grew up in the south as I told you earlier and I went to
school. I didn't finish high school here. When I got to the north and
the movement in the late 50s, the bus boycott was over, and I remember
discussing with the white kids about the movement and some black kids as
well and they basically would say, well it's not a movement yet and- but
then, you know, we're going to end this. All this is going to be better
once people in the north get fired up because that's where... I said, I
don't think so. I said I think that there's something real special about
black folk in the south. And the power and the passion is there. You
agree with that? I mean you talk about your family. I mean I find that
people that we've interviewed on this track, Selma to Montgomery, I mean
there's very special people in the rural areas. You talk about people
starting schools and this. I mean was there any doubt that if all of our
social situation in America were to change the impetus was going to come
out of here not the north.

**Dorothy Frazier:** Well I believe so because in the south that's where
the slaves were. You know, I mean they were like lynching black folk.
You know, uhm.. that uh.. in Montgomery, Alabama downtown, the square
was called \_\_\_\_ that's where they used to sell, as of my
understanding, slaves. And when I was a child uhm.. my mom and I used to
ride the bus before, you know- well after the bus boycott and before
there was a white side and there was a black side and I was always a
curious child. I'd always go on the white side. And my mother would tell
me get back over here, get back over here. Of course, I'd stay and there
were pigeons downtown and- and I would throw things at them and hit them
cause I didn't see uh.. a problem as a child. But I did notice that when
we would- we would ride the bus my mother couldn't sit down and I could.
And until this day my mother has Alzheimer's and she can reflect back
what went on many years and if I just prompt her she'll say, you know, I
remember that I couldn't sit but you- you could sit on the bus. Uh.. so
blacks in the south uhm.. we've come through a lot. You know, I enjoyed
the north because I was exposed but you really have to be strong to live
in Alabama and the other southern states. You gotta be strong. I don't
know how the people did it before me. You know, because I often told-
would tell my friends, I said if I was living back in those days they
would have to kill me cause I don't pick cotton.

**Q:** So you finish Alabama State and you pick up a protest sign. What
did you did was actually join SNICC is that right?

**Dorothy Frazier:** Right I did. And I-- I did that.

\<crew talk\>

**Dorothy Frazier:** Yes I did join SNICC. I joined SNICC because you
know, I- I uhm..- I knew about the NAACP, I knew about SCLC and I knew
about CORE. But for some reason SNICC was where the young people were
and it- it beckoned for me. And so with-- I was with SNICC, you know;
even going to jail because I was with SNICC; nearly being killed because
I was with SNIC. Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, yes, I like
the sound of that.

\<crew talk\>

**Q:** So paint me a picture of the organization SNICC. I mean I got the
idea that it was where the young people were. But it's very different
than SCLC and the King organization wasn't it? How so? More than just
youthful, what was the spirit behind the efforts of SNICC?

**Dorothy Frazier:** For me it was the- the--- SNIC was- was a way of--
it was something inside, in- in the heart. You know you have the- the
brain and then you have the heart but SNICC was in the heart. It was a
heart of the matter and we're gonna to help change the situation. We
would try different avenues of protest even though the older
organizations had tried, you know, different, we were fearless. That was
one thing that I found. I was fearless as a member. No one was going to
tell me that I couldn't do what I wanted to do because it was for the-
it was right. It was the right thing to do.

**Q:** Lot of SNICC people have told me too that that fearlessness was
matched by fearlessness in the community. They were surprised many of
them who came from the north at how courageous black folk were that they
encountered in rural situations.

**Dorothy Frazier:** Yes, they were. You know, uhm..- now I-- I was more
in Montgomery. I did travel to uh.. Lawrence county but my base was here
at Alabama State uh.. as it was at that time. And, you know, the
students came. I can remember uhm.. the Selma to Montgomery march when
uhm.. the students all were coming, I- we had students from Winnipeg,
Canada, and my father had just remodeled our house so it was a little
bit bigger and we had students that were sleeping all over the house.
And we have a very long living room and they were in the living room, in
the kitchen, in the den; they were in the bedrooms, they were, you know,
all over. Just stepping over. And- and my mother would cook and I tell
you that the na...

\#### End of CD 5 \####