Announcer: Excuse me. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ introduce to you
our speaker this morning. Our speaker this morning is none other than
the Reverend C.T. Vivian.

\<applause\>

Announcer: \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ willing always to challenge
authority especially when that authority was disobeyin' the law and when
we ever- whenever we hear the term civil disobedience I think even
Webster could very easily place his name there as an example of civil
disobedience, someone willing to do and give his all for what he thought
to be right regardless as to what the establishment had to say. Uh..
We're gonna see another video later on durin' our travels when you will
actually see this man go up against one of the most notorious
individuals in law enforcement at the time in the city of Selma, s- uh..
Sheriff uh.. Jim Clark, and we thought Bull Connor was terrible in
Birmingham and you've heard of that name. Well, you remember to just
think about Clark bein' the same way in Selma. Reverend Vivian was on
Dr. King's staff and helped to establish SCLC, the Southern Christian
Leadership Conference. He was active nine years in civil-rights efforts,
nine years before the Montgomery bus boycott, and uh.. everything he did
was nonviolent, direct action in Peoria, Illinois. He was active
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ in Africa with his hands placed
in concrete at Durban's- Durban City Hall. He was also a speaker at the
World Conference against racism. Let's welcome Reverend C.T. Vivian.

\<applause\>

**C.T. Vivian:** Hello, good people. You don't mind if I move around, do
you? Okay, good. \<laughs\> Yeah, I know you won't. \<laughs\> Can't
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ just see people standing, right. Okay, good.
So let's move around a little. First place\-- First thing is so we can
get down TUI to it, right, is that a movement starts for one reason.
That's because there is a problem, huh, and you have problems a long
time before there's a movement because nobody has a means, a method, for
solving it, all right, and so people get blamed because of what they
don't do but people should not be blamed because until leadership comes
up with the solution people have nothing to do but talk, all right, huh.
There has to be a strategy and in fact remember that because you are
going to have to create some strategies for new problems in your time
like somebody had to create and follow strategies in our time and in the
time before that and the time before that. Understand that no movement
stands by itself. We have all learned from the strategies that went
before. We saw their limitations, we saw their possibilities, we took
them as far as they would go and when I saw we I mean the people, right,
took them as far as they would go. We had the idea, had this or had
that. No. In the final analysis the issue is will the people go with
you. It's not your movement, it's the people's movement, all right, and
if you can't move the people don't blame 'em. I have a book that uh..
right down the spine it says don't blame the people, huh, and I had it
right inside. We have books all over the place and- but right inside the
opening uh.. when you open the door I put a set of books there and right
down that spine it says don't blame the people. Do you know why I put it
right there? 'Cause when I open the door in the evening I want to see
it. I don't want to come home and, you know, you're all uh.. feeling bad
'cause things didn't go right and then you'll start talking about if
they hadn't this and what eh.. eh.. eh.. uh.. is it. The issue comes
back to what have you done, what did you not do, how did you poorly
handle a situation. The central evaluation all the time is on you,
right, and the people expect you, you're at college, all right, you're
going to graduate. Only one out of so many of you have that ability and
the thing is- not ability, have the opportunity, all right. Don't think
that- \<laughs\> that\-- I grew up in the days where we eh.. kinda
thought that uh.. because we went to college we was somethin' special.
We had not very\-- No. We had a lot more knowledge, we didn't have
anymore brains, all right. Uh.. Uh.. Uh.. Un- eh.. Un- Un- Un-
Understand that so you don't put people down, right. We had a lot of
knowledge, that's what you were able to get, and remember get all the
knowledge you can before the action happens, huh, because once the
action happens it's too late then. The great thing about Martin King, he
had a Ph. D. before the action so when the action started he knew what
to do. He had already thought it through. Those years that you get at
school are the most valuable years of your life if you use 'em, huh, but
they're the most valuable years of the lives of everybody that you will
have a opportunity to work for whether they hire you or not. That's the
people, all right. Now we gotta get those kind of things straight but
you have to have a method to be effective. You may have a deep desire to
do something, huh, but you have to have a method. Do you know what
leadership really is? Leadership is\-- A leader is one who follows so
well that they find themselves out front, huh, and good leadership looks
for- looks for where the best strategies are bein' acted out for the
cause that they're concerned about, huh. It's not just that you're just
doin' somethin'. Where's the best strategies for it, huh, right, because
the issue is that the problem is there, the problem is destroying
people, the problem is keep creating chaos, the problem continues to
erode confidence in people, where is your stratedid- strategy to change
it. Lerone B[ennett said in uh.. The Black Mood, uh..]{.underline} The
Negro Mood the first time I read it. It was later called [The Black
Mood]{.underline}. Next time it'll be called [The African American
Mood]{.underline}. I don't know what it'll be called after that, right,
uh.. but uh.. when I first read it I was in prison in Jackson,
Mississippi, right, and uh.. remember when you go on demonstrations put
a good book in your pocket, right, 'cause the only thing in jail are
comic books and newspapers and the comic books have even been stepped on
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ so, you know, you don't want those either, right.
All right and now \<laughs\> uh.. uh.. the point is- is put a good book
in your pocket, right, because you're gonna have time to read and you're
gonna have time to think about what you have done and we used the jail
as ways of preparing for what we were gonna do when we got out and
that's a great place for it and it's just accordin' to how you handle
your jail experience. If you're in there sobbin' and wondering and- and-
and mad and upset, you won't get anything done, right, but if you take
all that time and the group together uses it as a planned setting so
that you have a conference right there in the jail\-- Now uh.. you can't
take tapes with ya, right, uh.. uh.. \<laughs\> uh.. but you can take
the process with you, huh. See, when we first went to jail in whatever
town is that uh.. they thought we were going to run to get our food. We
didn't run to get our food, we organized ourselves so that we had two
people at each table who went and got the food and brought it everybody
and set it there. It was like it was the Kellogg Center, all right,
\<laughs\> \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ uh.. we had stuff to do,
you know, the point being is- is get yourself ready for a movement. The
most important thing that's gonna happen is the need for a movement,
right. I'm gonna give it to ya. About every 35, 40 years there's a new
movement in America. Those movements have been more important than all
the political stuff. In fact, it created the main politics of this
nation yet there's no courses in it, right. This is why you're having to
catch up with this one, huh, uh.. uh.. is because there weren't any
courses but what you learn from this is basic to your understanding of
America, right, is that Lerone Bennett put it this way. He says the
African Amer- uh.. the- the Negro dilemma at that time, the African
American dilemma was this. He says that if we- if we fought back
violently we would be destroyed violently, huh. It was- uh.. It was a
strategy that wouldn't work. Just gettin' mad and wantin' to shoot
somebody, uh.. uh.. kill the guy who killed you, that doesn't work, huh.
Uh.. Uh.. Uh.. It- It doesn't work. You're just killin' folk, right. It
didn't matter whether they black or white, enemy or- or friend, is that
killing is just killing, right, and is not solving anything, right. So
it's- but\-- So if we fought back with violence we would be destroyed
violently. Then he said but if we didn't fight back we would be
destroyed morally and spiritually. Remember that frustration you were
talkin' about over here when you saw the film, huh? Remember all of
that? Is that\-- That's upsetting, that's destructive to life. The
important is you're to be upset but not for the sake of being upset, you
want to be upset for the sake of findin' a solution, all right. That's
what you have to do is think what are the solutions, what am I gonna be
working on, no matter how small or how large, is gonna change this
condition, all right. That's the important thing, all right. That's the
impor\-- That's why you got a brain, right, and that's why you use it,
okay, is that- but don't- don't miss me. Emotions without\-- Uh.. Brains
without emotions don't mean much either, okay. Uh.. It's just a matter
of how you discipline and control them. That's where Martin King came on
the scene, huh, is that when if we didn't move we would be destroyed
morally and spiritually, if we did move violently and we thought that's
all there was to it. When Martin King came on the scene, what he did was
to bring a whole new strategy. That's what has to be seen. No other
strategy that we've come with was working. Martin brought a new
strategy. We were caught in the dilemma that Lerone Bennett talked about
and that stritegy- strategy was nonviolent, direct action, huh,
nonviolent, direct action, yeah. Two things. Both of these are
important. It's accordin' to who they are, they want to talk about oh,
we must be nonviolent, but nonviolence is not an end in itself, huh.
Nonviolence is a part of a direct action toward the evil so that you
remove it. Now what that means is that you have to organize people
because to be nonviolent by yourself just to say oh, I was nonviolent,
that doesn't mean anything in terms of the larger picture. You have to
be able to organize people. Can you organize folk. That's the issue. You
know, it's interesting. You saw this film. They shifted you from
Jackson, Mississippi, right into Selma all of a sudden. You know what
I'm sayin'? They didn't talk about how Selma happened, \<laughs\> right.
Selma happened because the same people that was in Mississippi couldn't
produce in Selma, all right. You noticed they didn't show a picture of
Martin Luther King Jr. on there. Isn't that interesting. They moved into
Selma and didn't show you anybody that made the movement. Now uh.. eh..
so you always have to ask yourself certain kind of questions. Who made
the film \<laughs\> a- a- and why, all right, all right. Uh.. Uh.. Why
did they leave out the most important single person in the 20^th^
century, all right. In fact, Johnson said that the- that the movement in
Selma was\-- Uh.. How- How did he put it. I- In a sense uh.. it was uh..
uh.. the- uh.. uh.. says uh.. c- uh.. the Voting Rights Bill was the
most important single piece of legislation in our time. Do you know what
created that legislation? It wasn't done in Congress, it was done in the
streets, huh. That moved the sweets.(ph?) That's what you have to
understand, right, is that- uh.. uh.. uh.. so that when you look at all
the legal strategy that came we knew that wouldn't work anymore because
they'd already learned how to get around that. That's why you had to
have a Martin King. So when- when Martin worked and we went into the
streets, that was able then to pass new legislation. The legislation
didn't come because of legislators, huh uh. In fact, one of the reasons
that they were elected is because they weren't gonna do it, right. That
was understood. If you were in the South, it was understood you weren't
gonna get elected. In fact, you could get killed but you were not gonna
get elected, all right. It was because they wanted things as they were.
Let's look at that for a moment. It's that you have to be able to define
things. Don't forget that organization matter, all right, don't- don't
just because I didn't spend a lotta time on it. You have to go through a
great deal of organizing and the ability to organize and you have to
have people behind you, huh, 'cause by yourself you can be destroyed,
everything you're talking about \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. It's not
important whether you're killed or not, it's important whether you gain
your goal and you can't do it by yourself and you can't do it with poor
organization. You've got to organize well. That was the important\--
When they shifted, they didn't say that some of the people that uh..
uh.. made the film had been there and hadn't pulled it, right. The
people of Selma had to come and get Martin King. In fact, it was my job
to go in and make certain that before we came in that we knew what we
were comin' into. So when I got the word to come to Selma 'cause I was
the national director of affiliates, which means branches if you were
the NAACP. I mean m- eh.. any organization that had the SCLC's name on
it, right. So- So when I came in, I talked with the president who was
one of the ministers in the city, talked with uh.. one of the women that
re- registered more people than any- than anyone else, those were the
two that stood out, and about three or four other people that
represented \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ and what they said was we like the
people that have been here but the success has not come, all right,
would Martin King and SCLC come in because we had succeeded in
everything that we'd done. We wanted a place that we could bring the
Voting Rights Bill. That was a part of our strategy but could you pull
it in a little backwoods town in a backward place in a backward state.
Could you? Huh? That's the issue. You can do it if in fact the people
are there, huh. If the people are committed you can do it, huh, huh. If
the people are not, you can't do it. The last place you want a major
movement is New York. \<laughs\> You're swallowed up there, you're not
gettin' nothin' there, right. Eh.. Uh.. Uh.. It's because the- the
larger picture is- is can you take it from Selma to Washington.
Differences in strategy. Remember strategy is so important, all right.
One organization had the idea that you go to the grassroots, that's hard
to describe, but you go to the grassroots and you organize them so well
that over a period of time they rise up in that town, all right, and do
what, change that town. Another thing is you go to whatever city you
choose and you do it so well that you make Washington change the whole
structure. What do you want to change, the town or the structure, right.
See, it's how you think. You have to learn how to think. Let me tell you
about thinking is that the greatest strategy is that one which changes
the greatest number of people. The greatest strategy is that one which
changes the structures of a society 'cause that's what you're captured
in. All of us are in jail. All of us are in jail all the time, huh.
We're in jail to the structures that be. For instance, let me tell you.
We had to get a Voting Rights Bill, right. You know what your job is?
It's to make certain our vote is counted. \<laughs\> See, we just found
out in the last- last Presidential election that you vote but that
doesn't mean it gets counted. Am I right? You- You- You understand what
I mean, right. See, don't assume nothing. We assumed that it got
counted. When they picked up the vote at the voting booth, we assumed
that it's taken to the right place to be counted, right. Don't assume
nothin', right. In the coming election we're gonna demand that whoever
picks it up signs off, right, and that there is another piece of paper
at the other end that when they hand it over that they sign that they
gave it to 'em and they sign back. The new machines can be changed just
by if you get inside the machine you can make it do anything you want
to. See, that's the thing about high tech. Eh.. Uh.. It's not truth,
it's not \<laughs\> justice, it's not love, it's nothin'. It's- uh..
It's a machine, you know what I mean, and you can make it do anything
you want to. You can make it drop every 10^th^ card. So if you're in-
uh.. if you're- if it's in- if it's in- in an area where you don't want
the people to vote, huh, and you know how you're gonna vote so you just
have it dropped every 10 \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. All that you count is
nine, right, so uh.. uh.. uh.. uh.. I- I- I lived in Chicago where they
didn't even have to do it that way. \<laughs\> They just put out the
word, right, and- uh.. uh.. and the people that uh.. they knew were
gonna vote against it weren't picked up so that they couldn't even go
down and vote, right. You see, what I'm giving you is do not think that
any of this is simple and don't think it's as simple as a march because
one of the things that's bothered me is young people right now think if
they can get 50 people to march that the walls ought to come tumbling
down and they don't understand that the march is one part of a strategy
and it's about the fourth or fifth part of the strategy. It is not the
strategy, all right, and in fact the major reason for havin' a march and
the march on Washington even, which was the largest of the- of- of- of-
of social- in social history, it appeared the reason for it is not to
march, the reason of it is to so put on the agenda of public thought the
idea that you are pushing, that they can't escape from it. Remember evil
doesn't just go away because you say oh, well, you got 1,000 people out
here and you say uh.. they don't care about that, right, \<laughs\> the
point bein' is can you get 100,000, huh. Do you understand what I'm
saying? Not until the agenda is ripe. The great contribution that Martin
set on in- in America was this, right. He taught us how to reach the
consciousness of people, huh. That's what's important, huh. Martin
taught us how to solve social problems without violence. If you have to
go up against violence, you're gonna lose, right. Now you say but I
might get killed. So what. People are dyin' every day. The point bein'
is are you committed to something so deeply that dyin's a secondary
matter and the issue is not do you want to live or die, the issue is do
you want to win and the issue is do you want to win on the part of the
people, that's what it's all about, or do you want to see the end of
suffering, do you want to see people fulfill their potential, their
personalities, huh, do you s- want to see the next generation not have
to put up with the mess you've put up with. Those are the issues, right,
and when you really come to that point, I mean whether you're livin' and
dyin' is secondary, uh.. uh.. is that- so that- so that you- you have to
come up with a strategy. Martin came up with the strategy of nonviolent,
direct action, right, and they didn't know what to do with it, right, is
that they didn't know what to do with it in India, the uh.. British
didn't know what to do with it in India, and- and- and- and the southern
racist and all those that supported them didn't know what to do with it
in America, right. Uh.. Uh.. I remember a cartoon about the time of-
uh.. of Montgomery uh.. uh.. where- where this policeman uh.. uh.. was
talking to his captain and he s- he says uh.. uh.. Captain, says they
just keep walkin' by the bus, says shall we break their legs and throw
them on. The point bein' is- \<laughs\> is that- is that we learn how to
win by not doin' somethin' that was doing somethin', right. Now that was
terribly important, right, because in a movement you've got to change
the mindset of the people. Remember they have been under that oppression
so long and uh.. sometimes for generations that they think that's the
way things are supposed to be, huh. Is it\-- In fact, I remember a white
millionaire who was on our staff. You know what he told us? Now he- he
left- he left money to build our staff he said because I learned this
when- he says I had to come back from the war to learn that I didn't
have to be poor. He said be- I thought I had to be just like my daddy, I
thought I had just to be another poor white boy, all right, right, and-
uh.. uh.. and black folk think well, I'm just supposed to go along with
this 'cause everybody's doin' it, huh. You may be mad but you'll figure
well, if nobody else is doin' it then why should I. That's exactly why
you should be doing something, all right. That's exactly why you should
be doing something, all right, and remember when- when I said the
greatest number of people, not just black folk, black folk, white
people, yellow people, "boom," when you eh.. change the structures of
the society you free everybody. Uh.. The movement freed more people than
anything we've had in America, anything we've ever had in America, huh.
Now think about that, all right. Uh.. The thing is that- is that it
freed white people from these false assumptions that they had, from
their sense that they were superior based on nothin' but their skin
color, all right. Uh.. Uh.. Uh.. It freed us from the oppression and the
suppression that kept us down. It freed everybody, all right. You know
what it did economically? Economically is that- is that nobody would
bring a billion-dollar company into the South before the civil-rights
movement because any argument over race could- just kept everything
destroyed. If you- If you- I- If- If the owner of the company found that
he had a brilliant black guy, he couldn't put him in charge of nothin'
'cause the white guys said well, no- uh.. no, well eh.. black man,
\<laughs\> as it turned, uh.. uh.. you caught the meaning, \<laughs\>
all right, uh.. uh.. uh.. uh.. no black man's gonna be over me, not
gonna tell me what to do, right, I'll tear up this place first and they
would and the Klan would come in and do it. Who's gonna put a billion
dollars up there and the South didn't own nothin' really. The South was
really-, you got to see this 'cause it's- we're talkin' about freein'
everybody, the South was really a colony of the Eastern bankers. Later
the Eastern bankers and the Western bankers were fightin' over who's
gonna be in charge. You have to \<laughs\> really know your history to
understand the problem that you face in order to really solve it and to
find out who you're gonna work with and who will work with you, all
right. See, remember all of this is part of strategy. It's not easy,
huh, and you have to do your research, you have to know somethin', huh,
huh, and that's where your intelligence comes in so you don't make
stupid mistakes, all right. You'll make some mistakes but not stupid
ones. See, that's- that's what you got to keep on. You gotta learn
somethin', you gotta know somethin', right, and remember don't get so
caught up in arguin' over little details that you don't act. Remember
this. It's in the action that you find out who you really are. It's in
the action you find out what a nation is like. It's in the action you
get rid of the lies and the myths and the nonsense, huh. It's in the
action that solutions come serendipity up out of the action, huh,
because you can get paralyzed by just thinking and thinking is so nice.
I mean you-, you know, you- you philosophize and everybody says that's
wonderful, you see, until you just want to philosophize, all right, but
you don't have the solution until you find out in the action, huh.
Remember that. Most important, right, but once you have the action you
find out really what works and what doesn't work, huh, and then find out
how to organize people and how not to organize people. You'll know who
to blame and who not to blame. You don't know that until you act. All of
that is part of the action, okay. Got to know that, yeah. Let's see.
Let's look at this thing, this method that Martin used in nonviolence.
See, is that Martin understood somethin' very, very basic but very, very
deep, all right, is that the end you seek, huh, must be inherent in the
means you use. Sounds tough, doesn't it, huh, and what it really means
is there's only methods and ends, huh. If you start with violence,
you're gonna end with violence. If you start compromisin', you're gonna
end with compromises, all right. Whatever you start with, whatever your
method is, that's what you're gonna end with, all right, huh. If you use
nonviolence, you can then end with a loving community, huh. If you
don't, you\-- Whatever you use, you're gonna end with, right, so you
have to know what your ends are before you even start the battle, right.
Becomes very, very basic to it all. Now let- let- let me give you uh..
uh.. just a couple of other kinds of things that I think should be
important to you 'cause I don't know how long I have and- and they
alway- they always give me that five-minute thing because I'll talk to
you to death, all right. Uh.. Uh.. Uh.. When I see your eyes begin to
turn, then I- I begin to close, you see, and uh.. that could be this
afternoon \<laughs\> I said- I said m- uh.. but uh.. uh.. uh.. i- is
that- uh.. uh.. but- you see but you have to understand that if you're
going to really understand and know and do, huh, that you have to be
able to explore the situation, you have to literally think it through so
you don't make the mistakes. Let me give you an idea. I was uh.. uh.. in
charge of, of course I- \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ make it work.
That is movement is that those people that see it and think that's it,
huh, they- and uh.. all I have to do is get this done and get that done,
they're missing. Do you know what. Martin King was constantly on the
telephone, constantly on the telephone, hearing stuff from all over the
world. People were calling Martin all the time and when Martin would
come in late for a speech and- uh.. and you would say oh, there he is,
wonder what he's been doin', eatin' chicken, huh. Uh.. See, uh.. anytime
you hear somebody say that, just count them out as stupid, all right.
See, they- they don't understand nothin'. They think that what they see
is the movement. What you see isn't the movement, huh, is that all the
stuff that's happened behind is what causes you to be able to move, huh.
So Martin's mind went all kinds of things which he had to put together
and be responsible for, right. If he made a mistake, all of us would
make a mistake, huh. He understood that, huh. If W.B. Dubois made a
mistake, every black person in his time made a mistake. You have to
understand that. Major leader works constantly, never stopping, huh.
Martin was tired so that he'd have to go to the hospital and lay up for
a week. Now we didn't say that. It's a hell of a thing. He's just tired
from overwork. Get my point, is that you have to understand the power of
leadership. Now one other thing. You have to understand personality.
What kind of leader do you want to be, huh? When we talk about movement,
what kind of leader do you want to be, all right. When we showed another
film, I talked about a lotta action for ya but we're- we're- uh.. we're-
we're dealin' here, right, is that what kind of leader are you gonna be.
There are two major kind of leaders, right. There's the power leader,
huh. That is the really out-front guy that really can do stuff that- and
people will listen to and people will follow, huh. That's the power
leader. You hope that he also has enough going with that other than
personality and charisma. You hope he has the brain to match it but if
he doesn't or even if he does there has to be influence leaders around
him, huh, influence leaders that influence him, help him carry out the
task, right, so that you have to understand that when you see a great
figure that there's also a great number of people behind him that were
helpin' him do it, huh, and don't think you can do it by yourself
anymore that you can win a basketball game by yourself, all right, is
that- uh.. uh.. and that- uh.. that is happening. What role can you
play, do you want to play, and it gets back to that thing is that you
follow so well you find yourself out front, the action you take is
normal, huh. Now I want you to have a lotta respect for just folk, huh,
is that because if you don't you're gonna miss a lot, huh, and you're
going to play down people that should be played up. In Peoria, Illinois,
uh.. where I first had a movement nine years before Montgomery, right,
nonviolent, direct action, the president of the NAACP was a fellow that
was a janitor in uh.. one of the uh.. uh.. uh.. stores down- downtown.
Uh.. He was a janitor but he was president- he became president of the
NAACP, all right. Uh.. He said janitor, no kiddin', oh, yeah, huh. You
know why? 'Cause he was brighter than everybody else and he didn't make
mistakes and he understood people and he worked like mad and he was
consumed with helping people, huh, and that's it, that's the reason.
Remember uh.. uh.. uh.. uh.. uh.. who was the sidekick to uh.. the head
of Cuba, was- was murdered. Well, it doesn't make any difference, right,
uh.. Che. You know what, Che said, and it was on the Methodist calendar
when I read it so that-, you know, so the- \<laughs\> so the cameras are
here, you understand. Uh.. Eh.. I don't even think you understand, do
ya, huh? Let me give it to ya. It's because what they always wanted to
say is they were communists, huh. These leaders, they were just
communists so we got to kill 'em. So if I quote Fay- uh.. uh.. Che
Guevara, right, I better put it with somethin' that has to do with
religion and preaching and all that and then they can say oh, he's a
good man, huh. You don't see my point. Nonsense. My point \<laughs\>
bein' is those \<laughs\> who- those who- those who have revolutions are
revolutionaries. It doesn't care whether they have it there, it doesn't
care whether it's here, it doesn't care where the- wherever it is,
right, and you learn from everybody who's led a people's movement.
Remember that, huh. Che Guevera said don't forget a revolutionary loves
people, huh. That's what Jesus said too, huh, loves people. If you don't
love people, right, you may have a secondary or thirdary role, huh, but
you have to love somebody. Remember when Martin King said in one of his
most famous speeches that you hear at the funeral, he said uh.. uh..
uh.. I want them to say that I loved somebody, all right. That's the
issue. Do you really care, are you really in love with folk, and
remember as you teach it and as you read it that those people that went
out on the line loved somebody, huh, huh. Now Martin King could have
been super rich. He didn't choose to be. You know why? Because he chose
to love somebody, all right, huh, but as soon as you take the big money
you also compromise big time, all right, and when you compromise they've
got your soul, right, but as long as you don't you are in charge of your
life. Remember, there's only one thing you have. There's only one thing
you have, huh, only one thing you have, huh, and that is you, your
integrity, your sense of being, your desire to be, huh, and when you
compromise that you're just another guy on the block. It doesn't matter
what house you live in, it doesn't matter what car you drive, huh,
you're just another guy on the block, all right. In fact, you will fit
into somebody's niche and you will never be able to help people around
you very much. The last thing about ordinary people. We were in the same
prison cell at different times, uh.. uh.. uh.. uh.. sick and tired of
bein' sick and tired. What am I talkin' about? Who uh.. uh.. uh.., M-
Mississippi Freedom Party, uh.. w- uh.. uh.. who\-- Huh? No. Uh.. A
woman. Eh.. That's it. Now Sister Emma(ph?). Do you know what we found
out, that she was always helping people on the plantation in Mississippi
before she had an opportunity to help at a higher level. See, just- she
didn't just start when someone walked in and said we ought to have the
right to vote, huh. She already knew that. \<laughs\> She was already
helping all kinds of people with all kinds of problems. She was the one
that went to uh.. the guy who owned the plantation and said that this
isn't right. Of course, she had to say it, you know, nicely, but she
didn't mind sayin' it, all right, and the people knew that. She was a
leader before the big movement happened, right, \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, is that uh.. who do you want to be,
what kind of person do you want to be, all right, how much do you really
want to help, how much does the history that you're getting mean to you?
Does it mean that you want to continue it, huh? It's nice to know it.
It's far better to continue it. There are all sorts of problems around
ya. The biggest issue for you now is the economy, huh, huh. Most of the
problems that black people have we either have overcome or could
overcome if we had access to money, huh. If we had stable incomes, we
would overcome 'em. Who is going to solve that problem? Remember when
Martin was tryin' to put a floor. Remember, Martin's last act was not I
have a dream, all right. His last act was the poor people's campaign,
huh, and that's when he was murdered, not when he was dealing with the
racism, but when he was dealing with what, tryin' to see that poor
people, black, white, yellow, pink, or polka-dot, right, would have a
floor under them that they could never fall below economically, huh, is
that America wants to talk about almost anything, love, justice, truth.
They know how- know how to play that little game, huh, but when you
start talkin' about money, that's the hardest thing to talk about in
America, right. Isn't- Isn't it interesting we're a capitalistic system
and you will go all the way through college, grade school, high school,
college, and never have a course in capitalism, huh? In grad school you
might have it if you're a business major. Isn't that interesting? Why is
that? When you start talkin' about money, nobody wants to talk, right,
huh, is it uh.. uh.. uh.. one of our problems is- is that we don't want
to talk about people and money together. Give ya what I'm talkin' about.
See, you have to learn to redefine everything, right, you have to learn
to redefine everything, is that the Southern way of life. Whose South,
huh? Whose life, huh? Where's the value in the term? For whom?
Understand what I'm sayin', is that we don't see things the same black,
white, not because we're black and white but because the oppressors and
the oppressed never see things the same, huh. Take away the color
scheme. You can be a\-- Eh.. Eh.. Uh.. You can go back in 16^th^-century
Europe. Do you think the peasants saw things the way of the rich? Huh
uh, all right. Total redefining of everything if you're gonna overcome a
structure, got to redefine it, all right, is that that's what's
important. We redefined everything and let me give you an idea is that
my great-great-grandfather, and I knew him, huh, and lived with him. He
was born in slavery, all right, there for about six or eight years,
about eight years I think, he's- best that he can figure it, right. Now
the thing is- is they called him a slave. Well, a slave is a piece of
property, all right. I knew he wasn't a piece of property, he was one of
the finest human beins' everybody- anybody would want to meet. I don't
want to meet any ghost, right, 'cause that's just not some- I mean I
don't like to even think about it but I tell ya but now I don't- I don't
want to think about that. It's nonsense, right, but I tell ya what. I
prayed that my- I'd meet my grandfather sometime, huh, my
great-grandfather, right. I don't care where I'd be. I don't care what
night, what day, what room, what anything, I'd like to meet the old man
just to see him smile, just to be with him, all right. He was no piece
of property, he was one of the finest human beins' there, but you see
they called the guy who owned him, huh, huh, a master. He wasn't a
master, he was a murderer, all right, huh. How do you define, see. If
there's a\-- You never define any way that the oppressor defines. They
weren't masters, they were murderers, right. They killed folk, they beat
the life out of folk, they took away everything that people had, and you
call 'em masters, masters of what, huh? If you defined him as master, he
will think he's supposed to be in charge of somethin'. If you defined
them as murderers, you know, he's got to be gotten rid of, huh, and
because you're decent and because you understand the end results, you're
not gonna know he was a murderer, right. You gotta organize people so
they can see he is a murderer, not a master, huh, and when you do that
you're beginning to have a movement. You have to redefine everything,
right, is that- uh.. uh.. uh.. and you can then make life whatever you
are strong enough to make it, not by your muscle but by your ability to
organize folk, huh. That's the thing that counts and you'll create the
new world and remember a new world's got to be created, got to be. This
one is not\-- The way we live it is not good enough and the whole world
knows it, that how they live is not good enough and how we live is not
good enough and if you don't know that y- you are- you- uh.. you should
go back to first grade, huh. It's that basic, just that basic, all
right, but when you begin to know that you're on your way to real
understanding, real wisdom, and the possibilities of helping people that
need help as well as yourself, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

\<applause\>

Announcer: This is not quite your five-minute warning but we've got
about 10 minutes left and I was gonna s---

**C.T. Vivian:** Good. I'm gonna say and questions and answers, yeah.
Yeah. That's- That's what I\-- I\-- Now uh.. whether it sounds like it
or not, I'm always more concerned about the questions you ask than what
I say. I talk only to bring out of you what you want to know, right,
because I want to talk to you about what you want to know, and that's
important, after hearing what are your questions.

Q: \<inaudible\>

**C.T. Vivian:** Uh.. Yeah. Uh.. Oh, uh.. that someone said to me? Uh..
Uh.. Uh.. Some of what they said to me you wouldn't want to hear but-
uh.. uh.. uh.. uh.. is that- uh.. uh.. uh.. but- uh.. but if we're
talkin' about ideas, most important, you know, one of the things I
learned? A prison in Jackson, Mississippi- well, it was a prison right
outside of Jackson, right, is that- is that the people who were our
guards were as imprisoned as we were. In fact, I found out that the
black folk inside who were in the movement were the only free people in
that jail. Now what I'm getting at is, let me give you an idea. Uh.. I
was beaten, right, and so it didn't sound like I was free, huh,
\<laughs\> is that uh.. I- uh.. I was beaten because I was free,
\<laughs\> all right, \<laughs\> uh.. and that was hard for them to deal
with, right. Uh.. Remember uh.. that people who are enslaved are very
envious of people who are not especially when they think they're in
charge, okay. \<laughs\> You gotta understand that, right, is that uh..
uh.. uh..\-- So- So- So uh.. uh.. uh.. they beat me and they need a
doctor, right, to come and help me, right. So the doctor, he's- he's\--
They opened up my head here, that's it, so uh.. the scar was there for
years. I can't show it to you now, it d- disappeared, uh huh, but the-
but- but- uh.. but uh.. this doctor came and he wanted to find out what
was wrong. They pointed to uh.. my head but you know what he did? He got
in between himself and them and he wouldn't ask me questions, he'd just
look up in my eye and he just felt everywhere 'cause he figured I'd been
beaten everywhere but that they were not gonna mention it but he
couldn't ask me because they would call him a nigger lover and here are
two guys that work in a place where uh.. uh.. anybody who had any
education, anybody who had- was- had a chance to make any money at all
wouldn't be workin' in a prison, right. A prison guard in Mississippi,
\<laughs\> right. There's not much lower, you know, \<laughs\> all
right, uh.. 49 out of the 50, \<laughs\> all right. Now- Now what I'm
getting at is here was a doctor, huh, uh.. with a medical degree, goin'
through college, uh.. that was one of the very few that could even get
through a med school and he had to bend and bow to these. He was a
prisoner. He was a prisoner, right, he was a prisoner. He couldn't even
practice his profession straight up because he was wonderin' about what
they thought about him 'cause if the word got around that he really
liked those people, and that's how they'd put it, all he was doin' was
practicin' his profession, huh. He didn't want to be ostracized, right,
is that uh.. uh.. uh.. uh.. I learned very clearly that we weren't just
freein' up black folk, we were freein' up this nation and until there's
that sense of freedom this nation can never become what it says it is,
all right, huh. Uh.. Uh.. Uh.. I started to give you another kind of
quote but let's\-- Uh.. My wife says I give long answers to short
questions and I do. Susan.

Q: Will you describe your role in the---

**C.T. Vivian:** All right. As- As only\-- Well, yeah, \<laughs\> you-
uh.. you've seen it of course. You were mentionin' the whole story. Now
let me start out with a different thing is that my real role was number
one, to set up uh.. Selma, uh.. uh.. number two was to train people for
the role, all right, is that people came in from all over the country.
My main group to train were the clergy. No matter where they came from,
no matter what color, no matter what denomination, we all met not at-
uh.. at Brown Chapel but First Baptist, right. Remember, down on the
corner is First Baptist, Brown Chapel's in the middle of the block down-
down the street, right, on the other side, right, is that uh.. my main
thing was to deal with the clergy, right, is that uh.. and prepare them
for what was coming and make certain that their stuff was answered
because their questions and their attitudes and what reaches them is
theological and that's me, you understand my point, is that uh.. in fact
I defined the entire civil-rights movement. I didn't then 'cause I
wasn't capable of doin' that right then, right, I had to learn about it.
I mean process everything that happens, right, is that- uh.. uh.. uh..
is that uh.. the whole thing was a struggle between good and evil but
that's too simple. It was a struggle over whose god is God, huh. Is God
a god of separation, is He a God who's worried about color schemes, huh,
huh. \<laughs\> Is He a God of segregation and separation and- and et
cetera or is He a God of love and truth and justice? That's the issue,
that central issue. As soon as we got that into white church heads, they
couldn't fight no more. Do you understand my point? See, couldn't fight
no more. How you gonna go to church on Sunday, huh, and fight black folk
all week long, huh. See what I mean? It's impossible. Now we always knew
it was impossible. In fact, uh.. uh.. my great-great-grandparents in- in
the cotton fields knew it. You know what\-- You know how they put it,
don't ya? Everybody that's talkin' about heaven ain't goin' there and-
uh.. and the master settin' out on the front porch, right, murderer that
he was, right, knew- didn't think that they were talkin' about him but
they were. They thought he was singin' a nice, little diddy, and isn't
it nice to hear these colored folk come up in the evening and sing their
little songs and they were singin' everybody that's talkin' about heaven
ain't goin' there and they were lookin' at him and laughin' with each
other, huh. Uh.. Uh.. We've always known, right, we've always known. The
one thing that's kept us is God. The one thing that's kept us is our
belief that God is in charge and will in fact deal and Lincoln said,
right, not black, \<laughs\> Lincoln said that he- it's a- it- he- he-
he\-- How did he put it? The idea is that he worries about this country
if God is a god of justice, huh, and the story isn't all over yet, you
know, \<laughs\> the story isn't all over yet, right, is that- uh.. uh..
uh.. uh.. is that- and so that was my main job there but I also led
demonstrations and so forth and you've seen me leading a demonstration
in Selma in "Eyes on the Prize" where I have this uh.. c- uh.. this-
eh.. uh.. a dialog uh.. with Sheriff Clark, \<laughs\> all right, is
that\-- Uh.. Uh.. Eh.., You know, uh.. it's interesting how that caught
the ju- \<laughs\> uh.. caught the c- uh.. conscience of people and- and
just their interest. I had six countries when we were doin' it across
the bridge like we do- will do next week, you know, in- uh.. in uh..
Selma there were people from six countries there and they had me to
repeat that thing six times so that it could be in their language,
telling the story of how it all happened and is that uh.. uh.. not one
after the other, thank goodness. I never had that kind of time though
but- but the- but over the period of three days, right, is that\-- Uh..
Pardon me. Another question? Right there, please.

Q: What was your lowest point when it seemed like everything was goin'
wrong and---

**C.T. Vivian:** Do you know, Chris, now this sounds like a lie. I never
had one. I never had one. It's just like sayin', you know, uh.. uh..
uh.. weren't you scared. No. If you were uh.. in- in this business
there, know what I'm sayin', huh, 'cause you know you're gonna get beat,
you know you can get killed, you know anything can happen to you. So if
that's your problem, \<laughs\> go somewhere else, all right, uh.. uh..
uh.. uh.. uh.. uh.. see, uh.. uh.. uh.. uh.. is that I never had a low
point and the reasons were number one, I was called to what I was doin'.
God is on our side and that's what you've got to know. God is on your
side, right, right. What you also have to know, that justice is truth
and love are the most important things in life, all right, and if you
believe those and you want those to dominate the world in which you
live, huh, is that you don't have to worry, you don't have to worry. If
all you can think about is how much money you want, you're too selfish
for a movement, you're not concerned about nobody else, all right. You-
You- You see what I mean is that so it never bothered me. I was called
in my time, right. In- In fact, even when I was beat on a- on a elevator
in Selma, right, and they took me up and- and- uh.. and just threw me
and \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ said well, a guy beat me on the
elevator eh.. uh.. uh.. uh.. before and- uh.. and I was lucky, they
didn't stop the elevator, right. See, a number of guys in the movement,
right, they stopped the elevator eh.. in the- between floors. You see,
in those t- old-time elevators you- you worked 'em by hand, right, and
the- and they stopped at a floor and beat guys on the elevator, right.
The guy that was there to beat me, right, was a huge guy, I mean he-
uh.. he was big. I mean he should have been playin' on the Chicago Bears
because he was one. \<laughs\> Uh.. Uh.. Uh.. What I mean is- is that he
was a huge guy, right. He begged the jailer who was takin' us up, you
know, with this old hand elevator thing, he begged him to let him beat
me. So the elevator operator and the eh.. w- warden of the jail, turned
and looked at him as though you-, you know, what is wrong with you,
right, but you see he couldn't say nothin' again, do you see my point,
right, huh, because he couldn't act like he cared. He certainly couldn't
tell him he was a dummy, huh. He couldn't say nothin' like that because
if he did he'd be for black folk and against white folk, huh, and the
word would be out and he'd lose his job and everything else, right. So
he just turned away and looked uh.. straight ahead and that guy had a
club and he- and I knew it was coming, I just instinctively knew it was
comin', and when I saw the guy turn in the elevator I knew it was
coming, right, and so I put my hands behind my head to catch the blow
but I intended to do this right quick. What woulda happened if I'd
actually got 'em there and that blow hit me, huh. It would broken all
those\-- Huh? Just as I got it here, my fingers like that, perfect to do
what I wanted to do, huh, is that the blow hit, right, and uh.. uh..
by\-- Uh.. See, and he was a big guy and I was in there and the other
guy was in there, it was a little elevator, and by the time he got
turned around for the next one the guy stopped the elevator in- on my
floor, right. So- So- \<laughs\> I didn't get hit twice but once was
quite enough. I- I- \<laughs\> I- uh.. I- I didn't feel the ends of some
of these fingers for three days, right, so you know what would have
happened if I had been like this, huh, or if I'd not gotten there at
all, just the right s- moment, all right, and- uh.. and- and- and that
saved me for it but the- uh.. but they threw me in the jail cell and I
fell down on my knees and said thank you, Lord, and I wasn't meaning
thank you 'cause I didn't get killed, I mean thank you because I- uh..
my head was still in one piece, right, thank you because I did my job
like I was supposed to do it. I had had this encounter with Sheriff
Clark which you will see, right, right, and furthermore it went to the
whole world, as I mentioned six nations that seen it, right. Now the
thing is I did not become violent. That was the issue, right, is that-
is that uh.. in fact uh.. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ said that had
I- that had I not h\-- Uh.. How did he put it. He put it the other way.
Had I- Had I not remained nonviolent, we would not have the Voting
Rights Bill. Now I like to repeat that. It's not totally true, of
course, but it's a great idea \<laughs\> but- uh.. uh.. but the idea is
that if you- if you become violent you've already lost it, right, you've
already lost it. Another---

\<applause\>

**C.T. Vivian:** Uh.. Bu\-- This\-- As you- Uh.. As you were on the
time. \<laughs\>

Announcer: I think we're gonna have to call time temporarily. Reverend
Vivian is gonna join us for lunch so you will have some more time to
talk with him but I think that you can understand from hearing him why
we thought it was important for him to be here. One of the things that
his presence here I think points up about this seminar, going on over
two weekends and then we'd be extending work beyond that, is that this
is not a seminar about history, it is not simply to make you informed.
What Reverend Vivian has been talking about is how to become an agent of
change and if we can come out of this seminar as skilled agents of
change, we will have done something that's very important. Now we're
about to leave for lunch. When we come back, we'll be talking some about
how we go about making change. We'll come back. If you have a chance, if
you haven't done it already look through the section on the challenge of
diversity that you have both in your binder or the pages that you have
in your book because we will start this afternoon with the training for
how to become change agents. We've got the motivation now. We have
Reverend Vivian here to tell us why we want to do this and we'll spend
much of the rest of the seminar talking about how we do this, not just
history. History informs us but we have to learn the skills to permit us
to make change. Reverend Vivian, just as a present for our appreciation,
one, I believe you know this woman.

**C.T. Vivian:** Yeah. Oh, sure. In fact, uh.. uh.. by the way, uh..
uh.. uh.. uh.. we were together having dinner in uh.. Huntsville one
afternoon, uh.. four or five of us, and uh.. uh.. uh.. Mrs. Parks said,
uh.. in that very quiet voice of hers, she said-, and she was smiling,
she said a little girl came up to me last week at one of the schools she
was at and said I thought you were dead \<laughs\> and she was like- it
was because it's hard to believe that anybody as great as Mrs. Parks,
as- \<laughs\> as- as lifted and as talked about as Mrs. Parks, as
historical as she is, is still alive and these little kids just couldn't
believe it. In fact, there are a number of people, and they don't have
to be little kids, that believe that all of us should be dead, how can
you be alive, uh.. uh.. uh.. \<laughs\>. All right. Okay. Thank you.

Announcer: I also have another tape and this is because I think the way
he's talked about this tape has been very important today. Much of the
movement took place between the scenes that you see in all of the tapes
on the civil-rights movement. It is the organizing, it is the gathering
of people together, it is all the things that he's been talking about,
and I'd like for you to use this tape so you can continue to talk
about---

**C.T. Vivian:** Thank you.

Announcer: \--what happens between those moments that show up in the
media, between those big events that are what we normally are taught
because it's the things that go on in between that are critically
important for the existence of the big things that get filmed. Reverend
Vivian, I'm really glad you're here.

**C.T. Vivian:** Thank you. We are book collectors in our house. We
have, uh.. between the wife and I, all right, 5- uh.. uh.. we are
approaching 5,500 books by black writers, all right, and- uh.. and the
only- and now we're tryin' to find all the tapes. So I thank you because
I have too few tapes, all right, \<laughs\> oh, okay.

\<applause\>

**C.T. Vivian:** Thank you.

Q: We're gonna get ready to go to lunch but when you come back I want
you to find this in your graphic organizer section just in case he still
has a few minutes to talk with us. It's entitled "Circle, Square,
Triangle," something I learned that squares with\--

\#### End of Tape A3 \####