Selma to Montgomery, interviewee Bobby Black, Tape 2.

Q: Well, I think that I couldn't have asked for a nicer guy to give me
this kind of perspective. I think what some of our colleagues are
looking for we're not gonna get, that's the sort of a feeling for the
kind of stridency, the kind of rigid opposition, the kind of hatred that
must have existed on the other side of the coin but you did see some of
that. You were a witness. That's your value to us. What did you think
about, durin' the march, white folks would come out and stand and just
scream at the marchers and they would call 'em names. What did you think
about that whole scene?

**Bobby Black:** Well, I was never a party to any of that and I just
keep goin' back to my old cliché that everybody's gotta have somebody to
look down to and somebody they look up to and they would shout at the
marchers and uh.. but that was their way of comin' back.

Q: Again this is for young people to help them understand what went on.
Is Alabama a better place?

**Bobby Black:** Uh.. Is that than it was? Eh.. Yes. It's a better
place. It has a terrible image but it- when you put things in their
perspective uh.. it's not a bad place to- to be from.

Q: It's changed and it's a better place. Is there still like a body of
belief in Alabama that the laws should never have been changed, black
people should be in their place, white people should be in their place?
You gave me an example of how the blacks in their Lions Club meetings
sit in the\-- I know what that's about and we can talk about that but
sit in the---

**Bobby Black:** Well, now, not only that but uh.. if you go down to the
municipal court, it's over on Ripley Street, and uh.. you\-- They got
uh.. seats on each side and an aisle down the middle. Inherently the
blacks will sit on one side and the whites will sit on the other side.
Nobody tells 'em they gotta do that but I guess they're just more
comfortable with that and uh.. it- there's nobody down at municipal
court that said okay, blacks sit over here, whites sit over here, but
they just do that, human nature.

Q: Realistically that kind of human nature, that wasn't the underlyin'
basis of the decision out of Plessy vs. Ferguson and it wasn't the
underlying decision about segregation as practiced for most of the
20^th^ century, was it really?

**Bobby Black:** No, not really. Well, we talk\--

Q: But it is a curious kind of thing to observe, isn't it?

**Bobby Black:** Yeah. Well, we talk about the Civil War. You know,
that's a misnomer. We like to refer to it as the War Between the States.
A civil war\-- I'll give you a history lesson. A civil war is where
someone- a group wants to overthrow the government and put their people
in. That wasn't what we wanted to do in the south. We wanted to get out
of Dodge is \<laughs\> what we wanted to do and we fought a war over it
and- uh.. but it's not- it wasn't a civil war. We've gotten accustomed
to referring to it as the Civil War but it really wasn't, not a civil
war.

Q: A lot of people like to think that the southerners are still fightin'
the War Between the States.

**Bobby Black:** Now? Well, \<laughs\> maybe some are but now me, I
don't hate Yankees. I will say that my hobby is reading the obituary in
[The New York Times]{.underline} \<laughs\> but I don't\-- Uh.. I have a
friend that doesn't like Yankees \<laughs\> but I don't and I just take
people for what they are. \<laughs\>

Q: I'm not a great fan of the Yankees either. It's a terrible baseball
team. What should kids understand about this whole experience as you
lived it? You didn't live it like other folks have lived it but we're
tryin' to help young people understand their position, their
circumstances, and their connection to all of this history.

**Bobby Black:** Well, my daughter in Wichita, they are great fans of
the Kansas City Chiefs and they had a watching party and my daughter,
bless her heart, she said Daddy, don't say anything bad about blacks
but- eh.. that'll embarrass me and I said I promise, Sister, that I
won't. So we got in the basement and we watched the Chiefs, I forget who
they were playin', and uh.. th- there was a lotta people from Wichita
there and they were much harder \<laughs\> on the blacks than I would
have been and I just turned and looked at my- the little girl and I said
uh huh and she said uh huh \<laughs\> but they were a- they were a lot
worse than me. I didn't do anything and I didn't say anything but they
were- they were very vocal. \<laughs\> In answer to your question, Mr.
Lacey, (ph?) uh.. what should young people do. Young people should
realize that everybody's got to get along whether you like it or not and
they should be eh.. brought up to believe that everybody has got to get
along. Now we have in the schools in Montgomery, public schools, they
are not too good, they're mostly black. The pro- The problem is that
eh.. they- there are so many single families that don't have any pride
in the schools and uh.. i- i- it's hard for me. I know that you- you
mentioned it wasn't Montgomery. One of the guys that- he's a retired
mailman and uh.. he said it's hard for me to get uh.. real interested in
a school on the other side of town. He said give us back our
neighborhood schools and we can take pride in 'em but I'm not gonna be
uh.. happy with this busing my family on that other eh.. side of town
and I can understand that.

Q: I think black families understand that.

**Bobby Black:** Uh huh.

Q: I grew up in Birmingham and my mother was never happy that I had to
be bused to school.

**Bobby Black:** No. As George the First said, George Wallace.
\<laughs\>\--

Q: George the First---

**Bobby Black:** Yeah. \<laughs\> Uh.. George Jr. and George the Second.
Uh.. That busin' the innocent little children is not the answer to it
uh.. and I don't know what the answer to it is. Uh.. Eh.. You can't help
the single families. I don't know of any way we can do anything about
that but we don't have to- eh.. eh.. they don't have the pride that they
should have in the schools in my judgment.

Q: The title of this film that's being directed by a fine director named
Tim Radford is "Never Lose Sight of Freedom." Do you think that's a good
title? Should that be a message that young people get, never lose sight
of freedom?

**Bobby Black:** Never lose sight of freedom. Freedom is taking
advantage of the opportunities that you are given. We have freedom, no-
no question about that. Not all people have the same opportunities but
you're free to do anyth- to make yourself anything you want to make
yourself eh.. and uh.. never lose sight of freedom, I don't think that's
a very good- uh.. good title for it because you make yourself what you
want to and you have freedom to do that.

Q: What I really meant was is it a good thing to tell kids today that
freedom is important? That's what it says, that freedom is important and
that this whole Selma, Montgomery, the SEMO trail, the whole experience,
was about freedom. Do you believe that? Do you think that's true and
that it's what we should be passin' on to our youngsters? A lotta
Alabama kids are gonna come and see this.

**Bobby Black:** Well, I'm afraid that we equate freedom with civil
rights. That's not\-- That shouldn't be the case. Never lose sight of
freedom. Uh.. We- We still have freedom. We have that.

Q: A pretty precious thing too, isn't it?

**Bobby Black:** Uh huh. Well, I noticed on the news we are sending all
these supplies to Iraq because of the earthquake, we'd had an earthquake
there.

Q: It's to Iran actually, Iraq.

**Bobby Black:** And- And uh.. those people, they- they don't want those
supplies and why sh\-- We got enough problems in this country that we
ought to be taking care of our problems rather than sendin' things to
Iran and Iraq to take care of their problem 'cause we- if they c\-- All
of the money that- that they could spend, they could spend it over here
a lot and get a lot more done. \<laughs\>

Q: Probably on our schools.

**Bobby Black:** Uh huh. Uh huh.

Q: You've been very forthcoming and gracious and I really do appreciate
it. I didn't throw anything at you that really would have upset you
but---

**Bobby Black:** Everybody gotta be someplace. \<laughs\>

Q: Thank you very much.

**Bobby Black:** You're welcome.

\<crew talk\>

Selma to Montgomery, National Park Service interviewee Amelia B.
Robinson, Tape 2.

Q: I represent the kind of uninformed audience which for this film will
be a lotta young people. We suspect and hope that once these trail sites
are set, especially the first one, school kids will come, young people
who have very little knowledge about any of this and there are two
objectives, to give them a sense of this history and the role of human
beings like yourself in shaping and forming this history and these
achievements but also I think young people want to know how do I fit
into this, why am I watching this old lady, what has she got to tell me.
So the director of this film has called this film "Never Lose Sight of
Freedom" and it's kind of imperative, it's kind of a charge, the title
is kind of provocative in a sense and so you'll hear me over time as we
talk bring up this notion of freedom and how you have to keep hope alive
as it were. More than hope these days it's basically keep the pressure
on---

**Amelia Robinson:** Uh.. Right.

Q: \--and as you were saying, you and your husband started the pressure
movement around these parts especially around Selma back in the '30s in
your voter registration effort. You were a young lady at that time.
How'd you get involved in all of this?

**Amelia Robinson:** Before I tell you that, \<clears throat\> I would
like to say and that young people---

\<crew talk\>

**Amelia Robinson:** \--that the young people whom I contact now by the
thousands, I let them know that that is the path, that's the foundation.
We built the foundation in order that you can continue to build on that
and I tell them about the time I came to Selma, Alabama, which was in
April 29, 1929, and that you couldn't register to vote until you were 21
at that age and when I became 21 I became a registered voter but before
then I had married a man who was a registered voter in Georgia and who
was the county agent, teaching people how to scientifically grow better
crops, giving less money. We got together and said well, I don't want to
continue to get these people's feet cemented on plantations, we're going
to get them to get off of the farm, get a place, fill out these
applications, and we began to teach them voter education in order that-
that we would know. Now we had the people in the rural district because
I was the county agent, he was the home- the- uhm.. he was the county
agent and I was the home demonstration agent and we taught them for
years. One or two people got through the net and became registered but
when uh.. the system found that we were holding by lamplight in the
rural district these voter-education programs then they turned on us and
we became uh.. people that they despised and of course we were targeted
to the extent that it eventually caused my husband's death but there
were many people who wanted to register when they saw that it was the
only way of cryin' out against the atrocities and they were terrible,
they were many, they could do nothin' about it. If you had a case your
case would not get any farther than the state because there was a thing
that just says this is our way of life, we don't want anybody to disturb
our way of life, and the more they put pressure on us the more we began
to get people to realize, to see that you better learn to register, you
better vote, because as we had in our office, a voteless people is a
hopeless people. We also had a l- a little sign, if you have not made an
attempt to register don't talk politics in here, and these things began
to arouse the people and the way they treated us unfortunately our
people became fearful and we were like effigies. All of the things that
it did\-- If we even went to the store to buy something, the price went
up. When we tried to get a- a- a license to- uhm.. to have uhm.. an
employment agency where we sent people to New York, the licenses were
\$30. When I went to get the license it was \$300. People who would come
to the office after my husband retired, and he retired because of health
and his health went down because of the pressure that they imposed upon
him, and he opened a real-estate and insurance agency and everything
they did to us made us more determined to get out there and tell these
people you're gonna have to register, you're gonna have to vote, and
when we had fought so hard for 30 years, people wanted to but they were
afraid. Then Rosa Parks sat on the bus \<clears throat\> and in the
meeting of E. D. Nixon, perhap you have heard of him, when he called
this meeting of the ministers and Dr. Martin Luther King became the
president we were able to talk with him. Even before then when he first
came to Selma- I mean to uh.. Montgomery as the pastor of ba- Dexter
Avenue Baptist Church \<clears throat\> we uhm.. went to the house
because my sister-in-law was one of the favorite uh.. members of Dexter
Avenue and she wanted us to meet her pastor and while talking to Mrs.
King he came in and that was the first time I met him. They had been
there in Alabama several months and from then on there was communication
and uh.. I know what we did was not wrong. \<clears throat\> When- Uh..
When Dr. King\-- When Rosa Parks sat on the bus and the organization
became Southern Christian Leadership Conference, we asked Dr. King to
come into Selma because we needed him, needed him badly. We had already
fought and people knew that we were fighting to get the right to vote
even though all of 'em did not come to the various little schools of
education that we had and uh.. it was only after my husband had passed
and later on he- uh.. he said I cannot come but I'll send somebody. Then
he sent in Bernard Lafayette who picked up the pieces. At that time my
husband was in the hospital and he began to gather the young people and
in- and- in uh.. January the 2^nd^, 1965, when Dr. King came in to Selma
or before he came in there were people who were told including me by
telephone don't have Dr. King to come in to Selma, he's a rabble rouser,
he's an agitator, and he is a communist. They didn't even know what that
was but the white folks said it and they believed it and uh.. when he
came on the 2^nd^ of January nobody, it was embarrassing to me, nobody
offered him a drink of water, nobody shook his hand, and my office was
right in the office with all of the rest of the so-called business and
professional people but they were afraid. They went in the back with\--
Eh.. They were even afraid to look at him and of course because of his
coming in they came first to my office \<clears throat\> and when they
came to the office I- t- he wanted to go to the different restaurants
and, you know, it gave me a feeling though I worked with people that
were- that had nothing but it gave me a feeling that those people who we
call the have-nots are the people that you cannot s- throw aside. Dr.
King said I want to go to the restaurants and this was during the- uhm..
the time that there was segregation. Well, I took him to th- one of the
restaurants farthest away in the city. There were some people on the
outside that were talking, some elderly people, oh, drifters or whatever
you might call them, and when he came out those people followed him.
Then we went to another restaurant and those people followed him. Then I
said to myself what happened to the doctors, what happened to the
business and professional people, eh.. afraid, they didn't want to be
seen, and that night, that first night, he had a meeting and there were
few people but when they found out the news media were coming in then
they came. They were on everything. They filled the pulpit, they filled
the choir stand, they filled everywhere because they wanted to be seen,
yet they were afraid to come out and march and demonstrate with us and
the- many of 'em had children and they didn't want their children to be
involved because of the pressure and when I look back I can understand
because we were strong enough to take it. They might not have been half
as strong as we were and- because we got one fellow to fill out an
application to send his children to the white school and he was demanded
to leave town. So I could understand unless you are strong enough to say
okay, I'm going out and I'm gonna fight for what I think is right even
if I lose everything I've got and that's the way I felt, that's the way
my husband felt, and we fought and of course it caused his death because
of the pressure that he endured that caused him to have three strokes
and the fourth one car- was carried- eh.. carried him out when a man
came to his office to beat him up.

\<crew talk\>

Q: We stopped at the point where your husband---

**Amelia Robinson:** Had died.

Q: \--had his last stroke.

**Amelia Robinson:** Yes.

Q: You had been talking about people being afraid. So King was here, you
had an ear and why did you bring him in?

**Amelia Robinson:** Before- Before that when you were speaking about my
husband's death and I think it's very important that we know that people
have to be shaken before they realize the condition in which they are.
When my husband passed \<clears throat\> they decided that he would have
a memorial and this is the Bernard Lafayette who was working with the
young people and he was the one that went to the Reverend L. L. Anderson
of the Tabernacle Baptist Church and said we would like to have an- a- a
memorial for Mr. Boyington, (ph?) he's done so much for us, and Reverend
Anderson, \<clears throat\> having worked with us, said yes, I'll be
happy, but when he went to the deacons the deacons said oh, no, you
don't, you don't have any memorial here, you know white folks don't like
him and we're not going to jeopardize ourselves. Reverend Anderson said
okay, if I cannot have it in the church I'll have it in the street and
it was embarrassing to them. In the meantime the sheriff said all
full-blooded white men come to my office, be sworn in as deputies and be
given ammunition and they came out of the streets, they came out of the
farms, they came out of the turpentine stills and their whiskey stills
and went to the office of the sheriff and they were sworn in. On Friday
night when these people got ready to go to the Tabernacle Baptist Church
because they decided they would have it inside, when they decided they
would go into the church they had to come through a line of deputized
sheriffs. Some of them were in the church, most of 'em were on the
outside, and Selma bein' a small place many of them knew a whole lot of
people. They went into the church, they didn't disturb, but on Monday
morning when those 300 some odd people came- went to their places where
they worked like the lumberyard, the factories, and the industries,
small industries they had, they were told you're fired, you don't have
any job, and they said why, why d- didn't I do my job before I left
Friday, and this was Monday morning. Well, you attended that meeting.
What they did, they took the tag number of every vehicle that was there
and they found out who owned it and they fired the people and the people
began to say well, I have been a slave, I have worked hard and here I
can't go to my church at night without bein' fired, my children are out
there goin' to jail, being beaten, in order that I can register and vote
and here I can't go to my church, I'm gonna get in that line and I'm
gonna register to vote until I vote and they did. So we had them, not
the upper class. The teachers were not registered voters because when I
was- eh.. having been a registered voter long before, I would go into
the courthouse to regis- to vouch for those people. Now some of the
hurdles were you had to know the Constitution of the United States, you
had to have property with no encumbrance on- on it, you have to uh..
have money in the bank and you have to have three white men to vouch for
you and I was representing the three white men so I'd go into the
courthouse. Those few people who got there, nobody was registered but
they would go in and make an attempt and the courthouse was open on the
second and fourth Tuesdays from\-- The registrar who was an
eighth-grader would come in around 10:00, 12:00 was dinner, come in at 2
and he would leave again at 4 and that was the time but they were
registering white people in the vaults in the county courthouse. So when
they found that out, they got out there and they started demonstrating.
With my coming out of the courthouse there were 6\--

\#### End of Tape CD 2 \####