# Oral History Interview with

# 

# BILL STANGL

Saturday, Sept. 27, 1998

At Skyland Conference Hall

66^th^ Reunion of the Shenandoah Chapter

of the

Civilian Conservation Corps

Interviewers: John Amberson

Park Volunteer in Archives

> And Carrie Janney

Transcribed by: Gloria Updyke

Shenandoah National Park

Luray, VA

Original manuscript on deposit at

Shenandoah National Park Archives

# INDEX

[page]{.underline}

Allentown, PA 1,13

Arizona 13

Big Meadows 2

California 12

To be movie star 12

Camp NP-3, Skyline Drive 1

CCC buddy marries sister 12

CCC trunk 9

CCC

Army supervision 7

AWOL, going 10

Camp life 2

Clothing 9

Didnt let bum steal jacket 9

Doctor, inspections 7

Finding out about 1

Food, chowing down 6

Grapefruit, never seen before 6

Getting along, no fights 7

Leaving 12

Pay 3

2 terms, in for 3

\[Chagindas\_\_\_\_\] 14

Church, in Elkton 7

Elkton, VA 1,2,5,10,11

Erie, PA 9

Getting to know the locals 6

Free time

Appalachian Trail, walking on 4

Boxing 7

Football 2

Going in to town 2

Looking for girls 3

Nice townspeople 3

Playing cards 12

Rec. Hall, evenings 12

Singing choir 4

Smoking 3

Georgia 5

Great Depression 1

Clothes, different set for hitchhiking and hoboing 13

Food, bumming for at restaurants 13

Hitchhiking 12,13

Hobo jungle 13

Trains

Getting thrown off 13

Riding 12

Tramp, difference from hobo 13

Hacker \[Louis\] 11

Harrisonburg, VA 2,3

Hollywood, California 12

Hunting Camp 9

Lewis Mountain picnic ground 1,10

Luray, VA 2

New Mexico 12

New York 9

Oklahoma 12

Pennsylvania 12

Philadelphia, PA 9

Piney River 5

Potter County, PA 9

Roach, a mountain person 5,10

Sawmill 10

Scranton, PA 9

South River 5,10

Staunton, VA 2

Stores, general 10

Swift Run, VA 10

Tamauqua, PA 9

Virginia 12

Wilkes-Barre, PA 9

Work

Culverts, cleaning 4

Cutting dead trees 1,9

Fighting forest fires 2

KP duty 6

**Transcription**

JA: Skyland at the Conference Hall, and were here for the Annual CCC
Reunion. Im talking with Bill Stangl and were doing this interview
today. Stangl, and were interviewing here, hes with the CCC, and uh,
Bill tell me about when you first heard about the Civilian Conservation
Corps.

BS: Well it was back when I was 15 years old I think. I think it started
in 33. And it lasted til 44, but uh, in 1937 I became eligible to enter
a CCC camp. And the reason I did, because I was a high school dropout,
and those days was Depression days. It was tough to get a job. So I
decided to, well take a chance and join the CC camp. President Roosevelt
at that time endorsed it.

JA: Where were you living then?

BS: I was living in Allentown, Pennsylvania. So I enlisted, I passed,
and we were shipped on by train from Allentown, right down here to uh,
Elkton, Virginia. And there a CC camp truck picked us up and took up to
the first camp, which was at that time Camp NP-3 on the Skyline Drive.
That was the first camp on the Drive, coming from the south side, from
Elkton.

JA: And you stayed there the full time, working out of Camp NP-3, is
that correct?

BS: Yes, yes. NP-3, our job was uh, cutting down dead trees to take them
out of the forest, to make the forest look more beautiful. But we had to
cut them to, they would touch the ground. In other words we couldnt lay
them across. You know what I mean, you had to cut them up so they hit
the ground and would rot. And also we got to build a African American
park.

JA: Campground?

BS: Campground at Lewis Mountain. Yeah, that was the one that we were
working on.

JA: Yeah, what did you do there, at Lewis Mountain?

BS: Well, we cut the trees down, built up the roads there to drive
around.

JA: Mm hmm.

BS: As a matter of fact, we just passed uh, this morning we passed
through there, just to reminisce.

JA: Did you build any of the uh, the comfort stations?

BS: No, we didnt do any building. All we did was the.

JA: Clearing?

BS: The clearing and the uh, and then at that time you were allowed to
burn all the dead wood you know. Uh, so when that was done, we went into
building some of these, or repairing some of these stone guardrails
along the road. Uh, cutting trees down, and then theres a few times I
think that, twice we had forest fires. We helped to fight the fire, the
fires in the Valley. Uh, camp was good. We had a good time back there.
We, we used play football and baseball with the camp next, below us.
That was Camp 10. That was Broad, Big Meadows.

JA: Were you on a team then?

BS: We were on a team, yes. We played football.

JA: Yeah.

BS: Uh, we got beat most of the time, because there were bigger guys up
there.

JA: Bigger guys there.

BS: But we enjoyed it you know.

JA: Yeah. What was camp life like? Did you get up early in the mornings?

BS: Oh yes, we were up in the morning, and stand in line, and had to
answer uh. You know, uh, thatll be doing the same day again. Uh, we met
a few, a few buddies from the hillbilly country area.

JA: Mm hmm.

BS: It was good. And they used to go to town you know. There with the
truck twice a week.

JA: Twice a week you went to town?

BS: Twice a week, we went to.

JA: Where did you go when you went to town?

BS: Elkton. And into uh, Luray we were one time.

JA: Mm hmm.

BS: We went to Staunton at one time. And also to Harrisonburg we went
quite a few times.

JA: Really?

BS: Yeah.

JA: And uh, did they, was there some place there that you went directly
to go to, a place uh, to meet other people, to uh?

BS: Well we walked the sidewalk looking for girls. But, couldnt find
any. We went to uh, I think that, I think they had a movie theater in
Harrisonburg at that time. But most of the time was just walking around
with the boys.

JA: Mm hmm. And the trucks would pick you up a couple hours later, and
bring you back up again.

BS: Yes, right. At that time, with our \$8 dollars a month wed buy a few
thing you know. We got into smoking, of course I dont do it anymore. But
at that time you bought a pack of Bull Durham. I dont know if you know
what that was?

JA: Yes.

BS: It was like sawdust. And wed roll our own you know. Itd last us a
week. They were 5 cents a pack.

JA: Right. Uh, when you, when you uh, the townspeople, were they nice to
you?

BS: Oh yes.

JA: Did they have any events to, with the army USO and so forth?

BS: Yes they were very nice to us. The local people were nice people.
Always, there was no problem. And I just said, we walked around and
stopped at different stores, and talked a little bit, but thats all.

JA: Yeah. How long were you in the CCC?

BS: I was in 2 terms.

JA: 2 terms?

BS: Yeah, mm hmm.

JA: And when you first came there, was it in the winter time, October,
or?

BS: I left in September, came down in September, and we stayed through
the winter, and then the next term was through the summer. Yeah, we.

JA: Mm hmm. It was cold, cold weather coming up when you first got
there?

BS: Yeah, the first term was cold, very cold. Uh, and then of course, we
couldnt do much work, except maybe clean up snow you know. Clean up the
gutter, the uh.

JA: Culverts maybe?

BS: Culverts, and the, clean the leaves out that fell through in the
fall you know. Other than that, we had good times.

JA: Right, yeah.

BS: We used to go on up, take our 8 bucks a month and go down to the. We
also belonged to a choir, singing choir.

JA: Oh, interesting.

BS: The chaplain there was uh, taught us how to sing uh. Just the ones
that wanted to sing, theres about maybe 20 boys of us.

JA: Right.

BS: And I was one of them. I like singing you know, so.

JA: Did you have a concert someplace for people?

BS: No, just ourselves.

JA: Just enjoyed singing?

BS: Yeah, right, right.

JA: Did you have a radio there in camp? Uh, did you know what was going
on in the outside world? Or did uh, how about newspapers?

BS: No newspapers. I dont remember. I, no radios.

JA: No radios.

BS: No. We used to take walks down along the Appalachian Trail. And
there was a few boys from, from around like I said, close by. They used
to live down there. I got friendly with one of them, we took a walk down
to his house. This was really country, you know, country living.

Carrie Janey: Do you remember his name?

BS: Uh, Roach I believe his name was.

CJ: Roach?

BS: Uh, Roach, yeah, I forgot his first name.

JA: Mm hmm.

BS: But, theyre friendly, very friendly.

JA: Yeah, so you got to know some of the people around?

BS: Yes, the local people, local boys. That uh, I dont know how they got
in, but they were close by, cause they, uh. We used to take walks up to
like I said, the trails north along, along Skyline Drive up to our first
outlook, or overlook. I forget the name of it now. We drove up that when
we came here yesterday, but I couldnt find our campsite.

JA: Mm hmm.

BS: And I think somebody said it was uh, uh, I remember some kind of.

CJ: Piney River.

BS: No, the one before that. Its the first camp coming from Elkton,
making a left turn, the first camp on the right hand side.

CJ: South River?

BS: Could be, could be.

CJ: Theres a picnic ground there, called South River.

BS: Is there? But you know, its all grew shut now, thats why I couldnt
find it. Its all trees. It was all open, bare, bare fields.

JA: And how long has it been since you, youve been back to the park?

BS: I think it might have been maybe 12, 14 years ago, so I drove by it.
At that time I found it very easily.

JA: Mm hmm.

BS: Walked through the area. And in 15 or 20 years it really grew shut,
I couldnt find it this time. We were on our way to Georgia. Thats how
we, drove through this way.

JA: When you were uh, at the Camp, did they have a lot of educational
things for you to do? Did you get involved in uh, learning uh?

BS: Uh, the only thing is, I belonged to that singing group you know,
nothing else other than, we had our turns at the kitchen. We had you
know, KP duties.

JA: You had KP duties?

BS: Oh yes, we had KP duty.

JA: And uh, you had to serve, and uh clean up afterwards?

BS: Peel potatoes before, before supper.

JA: Just like the army, huh?.

BS: Right. And you know, we were so poor when we left home. We were on
relief, our parents were on relief. I didnt know what a grapefruit
looked like until I came to the CC camp. In the morning your fruits
there, you know. Your grape, and pancakes. I never saw pancakes before.
They were good!

JA: Yeah.

BS: And the grapefruit, you know. I didnt know how to eat a grapefruit.
I saw an orange but I never saw a grapefruit. Uh. And uh, breakfast, I
never ate breakfast. All I had in my life before I came to the CC was a
cup of coffee and a piece of bread. My mom used to bake her own bread
you know, and a cup of coffee, thats all. But I came into the CC, golly!
This thing was, you know, the quantity of tables lined up with different
kinds of foods.

JA: Yeah.

BS: So we chowed down pretty good here.

JA: Yeah. What about the other meals, did you have a lot of good?

BS: Oh yeah. Good. They were all good meals.

JA: Yeah.

BS: Uh, they were a lot of pork chops, and uh, course we, Im from German
descent, and were used to sour krout. And uh, cause the noodles in sour
krout, they got that you know. But, no this, this was something. I
never, never experienced that before.

JA: Right.

BS: Oh I enjoyed the camps, yes.

JA: And uh, what about the uh, all the boys in the camp, did they get
along pretty well?

BS: There was, I dont remember any, we did have, occasionally we had
boxing practices you know, thats all. But never no fights. I dont
remember anybody ever getting really angry at anybody else, you know.
Never had fights.

JA: What about the uh, people in charge of the camp, the military
people? Did they uh?

BA: Very good. They were army people, yeah.

JA: Right. And they kept things going pretty well?

BS: Oh yes, they did. There was everything up to, right up to snug you
know. Youd go out in the morning, you had to stand in line, just like in
the army. Know, you had to, I enjoyed it very much. Uh, well what else
can I tell you? I, uh.

JA: Did uh, did you, were, were the people healthy there? Did anybody
ever get sick, uh? Did you have a doctor close by?

BS: Oh we had doctors. Uh, you had to stand in line, I think it was once
a week, in the barracks. You know, out in front of your, or in front of
your bunk, and undress in front of him. Your, drop your pants and
everything beyond that. Some things I dont even like to discuss now. But
uh, they uh inspected us and all. Like once a month they did.

JA: Did, did any of the fellows get, get injured uh, during the time you
were working there?

BS: I dont recall. I dont, I dont remember, no.

JA: And on Sundays, did they have church service for everybody? Did they
uh?

BS: Well I dont remember that either. I cant remember that, that we went
to church. We might have went down, downtown into either Harrisonburg or
Elkton. I think we did. Matter of fact, I think it was, especially
during the holidays. Like Christmas you know.

JA: Right.

BS: And New Years. Other than that I dont recall. Hey youre talking like
60, like 65 years ago.

JA: Just like, just yesterday, right?

BS: Right. No, not so far. But, no, we enjoyed it. I, I just cant
understand why we dont have it now. With our young kids should be, you
know, be taken up with this.

JA: Yeah. Uh, when you were working did you do any planting along the
Drive? Did you do? Uh?

BS: I wasnt in with that type of group. I uh, mine was always uh, with
cutting trees. And in the winter time we couldnt cut trees, we had to
uh, clean out the culverts. And uh, course if it was too heavy, snow was
too heavy, then you didnt do nothing. You just stayed in the barracks
all, all day.

JA: When you couldnt, when theres a real cold weather and so forth and
you couldnt work, did they uh, and you had to spend a day inside waiting
around, did you have to put extra days in for the?

BS: To make up for that?

JA: To make up for that.

BS: No, not that I remember, no.

JA: Mm hmm.

BS: No, we always had our days off that we had.

JA: And did they give you good, good clothing to wear? And uh.

BS: Oh yes. Oh yes. I had my clothing for years after that. Years. Uh,
I, when I got out of the CC camp theres still no work to be done, so
like I said before, I went on the bum. And I had my jacket along, that I
had from the CC camp you know, I took that along. I went out to
California on a freight train. And it was one colored fellow, one
African American, wanted to steal it off of me. I says no, I says. He
says, Where youre going its going to be warm. I said, No, Im going back
up the Pennsylvania, its cold up there. So, uh, I, I, he didnt get it. I
had it for a long time after that. Just dont know, I might still, I
still have my locker that I had.

JA: Do you?

BS: And, suit, trunk you know. I think you had to buy them for \$5
dollars. One was 5, and one was like 8 or 10 dollars. I got the cheaper
one.

JA: You had to buy it?

BS: I still have it.

JA: You do, thats good.

BS: I take it up, as a matter of fact I have it in my hunting camp, up
in, up in Potter County, Pennsylvania. Up near Erie. You know where Erie
is?

JA: Mm hmm. Yes.

BS: Thats where, we have a hunting camp up there. And that, uh, Ill,
relish that as long as I live. I have it under, under my bunk and every
time I go up there, my hunting clothing is in there.

JA: Yeah.

BS: Yes. I uh, it always reminds me. And it has my name on there. CC
camp, the numbers and all you know. Oh yeah.

JA: Right, right.

BS: As long as I live Ill have that there.

CJ: Were most of the guys in your camp from Pennsylvania?

BS: Well, no.

CJ: No?

BS: Our group that, that camp down there from, the were from
Pennsylvania, like Tamauqua, and uh, Scranton, Wilkes-Barre, them places
there. But no, there, theres some people from New York or from
Philadelphia. But those kids didnt stay long. They went W, what is that?

CJ: AWOL?

BS: A-W-O-L.

JA: Really?

BS: Yeah. They, they took off. They, Philadelphia kids, theyre not the
working type, you know. So they took off. A-W-O-L.

JA: Did they ever try to bring them back that you heard of?

BS: They tried looking for them, but they never found them. I think,
they didnt take too much time to look for them, after they got out, you
know. They thought maybe they got lost in the woods. Drove up and down
the road for a few miles, up and down, but, but they didnt pay too much
attention to that.

CJ: You said you knew some of the people who lived here in the
mountains, at the time. You mentioned the Roach man.

BS: Roach, yeah.

CJ: Were there still stores on the road down to Elkton, on the road that
crosses the mountain on Swift Run? Were there still stores there at that
point?

BS: Do you mean like little general stores?

CJ: Uh huh.

BS: Not that I recall.

CJ: No?

BS: Nothing, no. When you got close to Elkton there might have been,
yes. Uh, no I dont remember any stores.

CJ: Do you remember any sawmills or anything like that?

BS: Oh golly, no, I dont remember that either. There might have been a
sawmill, I remember when we went through here like I say 18, 20 years
ago.

CJ: Oh really?

BS: But uh, I made a, I made a few trips down through this way, like I
say a couple years, 12,15 years ago I found the campsite. But yesterday
I came up this way I couldnt find it. I was so disappointed.

CJ: So grown up?

BS: We went by stores, uh, Lewis Mountain, turned around. I knew that
was too far already. I turned around because thats where we, built the
park for the African Americans. We turned around, all the way back down
to er, 33, where 33 crosses over. Turned around, went back there to find
it, I just couldnt find it.

CJ: Right. I read somewhere that at South River at the picnic ground,
that the CCC guys landscaped that area, and they designed the
campground, not the campground, the picnic ground area.

BS: Might have planted trees there?

CJ: Mm hmm.

BS: And thats why its overgrown and thats why I couldnt find it. And
because, I couldnt find it. And I know its only about a quarter or maybe
a half a mile from the campsite up to the first overlook. And there was
a cliff there also, a rocky cliff on the, on the right side of the road.
As I said I turned around, continued to the cliff, to the overlook, and
took it real slow to see if I get another half a mile or so to see what
I could see on my left hand side. And my brother-in-law, he was with me,
hes with me now as a matter of fact, and he looked as hard as I did, and
we just couldnt find it. He was down at the camp at the same time I was.

JA: Mm hmm.

BS: And uh, coincidence enough that he married my sister. His name is
\[Louis\] Hacker. I dont know if you have him either?

JA: We just talked to Mr. Hacker.

BS: He married my sister, we became brother-in-laws. Her name, my
mothers name was Hacker.

CJ: Oh?

BS: So wasnt that you know. She backed, she backed her Hacker name up.
My mothers name. Yeah, we, we enjoyed every moment of it. We played some
cards I think, and a few of the games, evenings we went down to the Rec
Hall. Uh, I enjoyed it, I really did.

JA: When you uh, when you left here you say you stayed 2 terms?

BS: Yeah.

JA: Roughly a year. And uh, then you went back, decided to go home
again, get another job?

BS: Yes.

JA: Or you went back home again. What was the reason why you decided to
leave the CCC? You could, I guess you could sort of take multiple terms,
is that correct?

BS: I decided Id had enough of it. Why I think youre only allowed 2
terms. You had to get out. And then you can stay out for say, 6 months,
and then, and then rejoin again. They let you rejoin again. If you didnt
have a job or anything like that.

JA: And when you left there you went back to look for a job.

BS: Right. Couldnt find one.

JA: Couldnt find one. And what did you do then?

BS: Well I, I wanted to go out to California to become a movie star. So
as I said, I went up for my other buddy up in camp up in Pennsylvania,
he couldnt go, so I went myself. Had a little suitcase, and hitchhiked
out to Oklahoma. Thats the last, the last ride I could get. There wasnt,
at that time, 37, theres, how many cars are on the highways? Theres very
few. So I noticed there was a water tank where the engines stopped for
the water. They fill up with water when they stop. I looked for an empty
boxcar. I found it, I got into it, that took me all the way out through
Arizona, New Mexico, California.

JA: And you became a movie star, is that correct?

BS: Er, I saw the side of the mountain, Hollywood. I just walked up, it
was a horrible look. What a life. I came back, bummed back as far as,
down here in Virginia someplace. And from there, from there I started
hitchhiking. See in my little suitcase I had my, my hitchhiking clothes,
and when I was on the freight train I had my hobo clothes on.

JA: Mm hmm.

BS: So when I started hitchhiking, Id change my clothes and put my
hitchhiking clothes on. So I go right up as far as Harrisburg, I rode
the freight train as far as Harrisburg. And then changed around, and
started hitchhiking back home again.

JA: Were there problems with, hitchhiking on the train those days?

BS: Uh, I had problems once in awhile. I was chased off as a matter of
fact, out New Mexico. They chased me off the train. And he said, Dont
you get on that train again. The engineer, er uh, what did they call
them at that time?

CJ: Conductor?

BS: Conductor, yeah. "Dont you get on that train." And he was watching
me, that I dont get on. I had to walk, golly. I seen the tower in the
distance you know, but uh, smoke, uh, and the train left, I couldnt go
back on. And I walked and I walked, and so, it took at least 6 hours
into town.

JA: Mm.

BS: Oh golly, that was a rough life I had. When I left Allentown area, I
had \$5 dollars in change in my pocket, and I used to have to bum for my
food. Id walk into restaurants, Id ask them for leftovers that people
would leave over, you know. I would wash up the floors, or clean the
tables off you know. But most them people in the restaurants were nice.
They let me have the food without working.

JA: Did you meet a lot of other people doing the same thing at the time?

BS: Thats, thats right.

JA: Its almost a, a life in itself.

BS: Right, and you were, a lot of times you were in the hobo jungle.
Where a lot of the hobos sat around a big fire.

JA: Mm hmm.

BS: When they used to, like theyd bum potatoes from their neighbor
people, you know, they, had the potatoes on their, and they offered me
some potatoes and coffee in a tin can.

JA: That was uh, that was just as interesting as the CCC was.

BS: But you see, but you see we, we were hobos. They were the good, good
bums. The tramps are the people that would steal for their for their
food.

JA: Oh?

BS: I was not a tramp, I was a hobo.

JA: Yeah.

BS: And uh, I, Im a collector of hobos also. In German they call them
\[chigindas\_\_\_\_\] If you ever heard of that.

JA: No, I have not.

BS: \[Chigindas,\] yeah, \[chiginda.\]

JA: Thats interesting. Well thats another story we have to talk to you
about.

BS: Thats right.

JA: I thank you so much for uh, for being with us today, and I hope you
can come back to the reunion next year.

BS: Sure. Well, we will. Ill make it my business to, Im surprised theres
not more people. I was hoping there would be more.

JA: Well you bring all your friends back with you.

BS: I will. Definitely, thank you, thanks again.

JA: Thank you.