up small businesses in Canberra consulting to the Public Service, providing skills and - and services that had been outsourced.  If you're cutting the money you spend on the consultants that will cost some people their jobs and their businesses, won't it? GRAY: It's necessary to understand that the Public Service itself, the hundred-and-sixty-seven thousand public servants do a particular job for our country.  We believe that job can be done more efficiently and yes, it is the case that we found savings in a range of areas. CURTIS: So you're not worried about jobs as long as they're not Public Service jobs?  So people who have set up businesses on the understanding they could consult to the Public Service on areas that the Public Service had chopped and weren't being done in-house will no longer be able to do that? GRAY: Yeah, we believe it's necessary for the Public Service to be efficient and we believe that the measures that we have in place that protect the Public Service itself, protect public servants and target savings in a range of prime areas, are the right things for us to do to ensure that our running costs of the Public Service are kept where we want them to be. CURTIS: But you can't say these cuts won't cost any jobs, they just won't cost any jobs in the Public Service? GRAY: We know that these jobs are not targeted at public sector jobs.  We know that these cuts are targeted