not a reduction in absolute terms", as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, "but actually a 16% reduction from the trend increase. So after nine years there is still more TB around than there was at the beginning". -- [ Hansard, House of Lords , 23 October 2012; Vol. 740, c. 148 .] That is the key point that Government Members are not taking on board. I will make a little more progress before giving way again -- as you have pointed out, Mr Speaker , this is a heavily oversubscribed debate. A number of eminent individuals have also spoken out in opposition to the Government's proposed course of action. Significantly, the Government's chief scientific adviser, Professor Sir John Beddington , has refused to back the cull. In a letter to The Observer on 14 October , more than 30 scientists wrote that "the complexities of TB transmission mean that licensed culling risks increasing cattle TB rather than reducing it... culling badgers as planned is very unlikely to contribute to TB eradication." I am extremely grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. I rather suspect that in Brighton Pavilion there are few dairy famers, if any, so will she agree to come to Shropshire and spend the day meeting my dairy farmers and the local NFU to hear their perspective on the crisis and how they believe it should be tackled? Even coming from Brighton Pavilion does not stop someone reading the science. I would like the debate to be