for a disease, he labels it knowledge. This knowledge exists before he came to label it otherwise how can he come to know of it? You appear to be confusing things and properties of things with knowledge of those things and their properties. This is a category error. Quote: 3. If knowledge exists before man knows about it then who is that knowledge known by? Things and properties of things can exist independently of the knowledge of them. As a result, your attempt at begging the question by inserting the "who" is misplaced. A who is not required. Quote: 4. If you say before it is known to man it is not knowledge, then why was an apple and an island that exists, an apple and an island before man came to know of them? (if he comes to know of them) They were not apples and islands until we labelled them as such. Until that point they were simply uncategorised things that existed. Quote: Your thoughts... My thoughts are that you thought this was actual evidence. If you did, you were wrong. __________________ It's all shits and giggles until someone giggles and shits! If you read my post carefully you will notice what you have referred me to is similar but a little different to what I am saying. However I do agree that the universe was caused. I guess your main argument is even if the universe was caused then how do we know it was by an