Even the examples given do not depict an "independence". People worked in teams, groups, communities. They left these things to start out on a new life. They formed these things when they started a new life. There were (and are) 'rugged individuals', but they do not survive on their own. Never have and never will. mightysamurai Except he didn't say our ancestors survived on their own. He said they were, quote, "some of the most independent people on earth." Which is undeniably true. When will you learn to think before you run your mouth? Breadforguns When will you learn to read? mightysamurai You're the one who can't understand clear and simple English. John said, "Our ancestors were some of the most independent people on earth." This is a simple fact. Our ancestors were some of the most independent people on Earth. You have to be a complete idiot to think that just because people lived in communities meant they weren't independent, or that they weren't more independent than we are today. Breadforguns "You have to be a complete idiot... To class these folks as independent" FTFY mightysamurai Translation: You have no counterargument. You fail, M@rtha. DrEvil007 Yeah, those mountain men living on their own for years at a time, those pioneers who settled the West in homesteads that were miles from the nearest town or neighbor were practically members of communes. Everything you believe is wrong. DrEvil007 Free people cooperating of their own freewill is independence. Especially when compared to