that was what was planned? There has been a lot of talk in this debate about the science, and we heard a good exposition from the hon. Member for St Ives. It is important that we go back to John Krebs . I do not advocate that we go back to 1997 as the Secretary of State does. I am disappointed that he is not in his place , and I am disappointed about his earlier remark in the House that he "couldn't take any more." He has only been in the job six weeks. I have been studying the issue of the badger cull for 18 months -- as have other hon. Members, along with farmers out there in the community who are living with this problem -- and I think the Secretary of State will have to show a little more backbone. Professor Lord John Krebs instigated the randomised badger culling trial, and took part in the review of the evidence with Sir Bob Watson last year. Lord Krebs stressed the fact that culling badgers makes TB worse at the beginning by spreading the disease. He stated clearly in the Lords on Tuesday that the badger cull would reduce the incidence of TB in cattle by 16% after nine years, leaving 84% of the problem still there. He said that "this is not a reduction in absolute terms but actually a 16% reduction from the trend increase." In other words, as the background trend is going up, BTB