within Christianity as a whole (it was, for example, pointed out on the Andrew Brown thread that the Vatican will never allow Protestant Christians to share their communion). I left the C of E, in fact ceased to become a Christian, mostly due to this issue about women in the church. Why, after all, should I lend my support to any system of belief, let alone church, that considers me as an untermenschen? Yes, of course help those in Zimbabwe, or Gaza, or the local homeless. If your church indeed has a future, it will be with those visiting the sick, not with its primates. But I do wonder if it all has an aspect of Mrs. Jellyby, in Bleak House, about it, neglecting her daughter in favour of Africa! Religion has become the last refuge of misogyny, and homophobia; so until you no longer have untermenschen in your church, there will always be a tinge of double standards when you "share your hopes for a better world". (And by the way, is there no Oxfam shop, or suchlike in Putney? Are you sure it is only your back room churchgoers who are helping others?) I think the individuals within the church are always more important - but organisation is usually necessary, and it stems from the need to keep in touch with other like-minded individuals. Of course, over the years, very elaborate organisational structures can grow up. And they develop their own history, bones of contention, etc etc As