Meddyrobbins Yes, we have read the paper thank you very much. I still think that the paper is badly written and makes no novel arguments. It hides behind flowery and cleverly worded phrases rather than solid moral arguments. It looks to me that you are being paid to defend this article and similar ideologies? If that is the case perhaps you should write your points of view? BellaDonna70 "... This is of course culturally and country and time relative ... " This debate is not time relative. It is now. As for it country relative, OK. You list those countries where murder is legal, and I'll list those where murder is illegal. If one list is, 5 times longer than the other, will you be willing to acknowledge that one to reflect the consensus view? 7 times? 10 times? "... it is nowhere near as universal claim as you are making here ..." No? Are you willing to accept the legal/illegal challenge? "... it is only murder if the things being discussed have moral status ..." Do you accept the proposition that babies are THINGS, and have NO MORAL STATUS? If you do not accept that claim, then killing babies is murder. "... But the more important point is I am arguing in favor of having discussions ..." It is routine and commonplace to not discuss activities that are inherently disadvantageous. Murdering babies, as it is an act of societal self-destruction, is one example of a disadvantageous sctivity. "... I