business power in Brazil is in Sao Paulo and Greater Sao Paulo.  So in that sense, Sao Paulo across the twentieth century has gradually taken over the roles that Rio used to play.  So Rio no longer has the political importance it had since the capital had moved to Brasilia in 1960, all the major cultural and business centres have gradually migrated to Sao Paulo.  So in this sort of sense, even though Rio today is a city of 10 million people, an incredibly vibrant city, it has been eclipsed by Sao Paulo as the centre of the country. ERIC VAN BEMMEL I read recently that Sao Paulo has the worst traffic jams in the world. MARSHALL EAKIN It also, apparently has the highest number of helicopters owned by executives because they fly into the rooftops of their offices.  So apparently it has an enormous traffic in helicopters to avoid those traffic jams. ERIC VAN BEMMEL Isn't that interesting.  Now Marshall, you argue that there has been a relative decline, in a sense, of collective identity in Brazil more recently.  Can you elaborate on that? MARSHALL EAKIN Yeah, I think this is caused first by the rise of these afro-Brazilian civic groups who are challenging this.  Second, essentially by intellectuals who, by the 1980s, declare there is no such thing as national identity, it's impossible to achieve.  Many of them also question the very notion of what Freyre's arguing.  Because Freyre - the idea of mesticagem and mixture becomes deeply