government handouts then they were paying in income tax. So they were net beneficiaries of the government, 42 per cent. Is that what you mean when you talk about the politics of outbidding your opponent? JOE HOCKEY: Well, one of the reasons why that was the case is we restructured in government the family payment system and effectively provided funding support for families having children because of the cost of raising - the increased cost of raising children. And that meant - I can't remember the precise figure, but it was around $60,000 to $65,000 a year for a family income with children under about eight or nine ended up paying no net tax. Now there has been a rebalance of the taxation system. Indirect taxes obviously have an impact on those families. And of course, there are other pressures on the family system, and as we've seen in Australia today, there is a vigorous debate about the National Disability Insurance Scheme. But the fundamental point is this: we are all living longer and the longer we rely on government handouts, the greater the burden for taxpayers and particularly those that follow. So what we've got to do is be mindful, mindful of the pain associated with grand announcements about extending the welfare state, and that's the point I'm making. TONY JONES: Well let me just go back because Treasury studied this and found that in the four years up to 2008, an extra 276,000 families moved from being net