is all fact, and you have used the word 'opinion' --  Dr Burgess : You were talking about the history of the tobacco industry over many decades. I have been with the fund for a year. We have had a policy since February. Let us be clear about it. I think what you are talking about is the role of exclusions. How do exclusions work in the fund? What is the approach of the fund when it comes to exclusions? As you aware, there are opinions on lots of industries and lots of issues out there in the community. So we have to be very careful in having a very clearly defined exclusions process. We have discussed this before. We look for a diversified portfolio. We ensure that we are focused on our mandate. We ensure that we allow for risk. We ensure -- and this is an important point -- that there is no breaking of Australian laws or conventions or treaties. And then we ensure that they follow our ESG policies. I think the most important issue is to have that framework to ensure that you have a clearly defined approach to the way that you look at exclusions in a portfolio Senator DI NATALE: So rather than perhaps documenting the known and established track record of the tobacco industry, let us look at some of the companies that the Future Found is currently invested in. We are invested in 15 tobacco companies as of today. As of