to engage in improved behaviours over time. But we have a clear policy that if we cannot get those outcomes, exclusion is an option. Senator DI NATALE: I agree with you again that I think that you need to take a long-term outlook. So let us have a little look at the tobacco industry. In the United States v. Philip Morris, we had the United States District Court Judge there quoting that the tobacco industry 'survives, and profits from selling a highly addictive product which causes diseases ... a staggering number of deaths ... immeasurable ... human suffering and economic loss, and a profound burden on our national ... system'. The tobacco companies have known all of this for 50 years or more but they have continued with enormous skill and sophistication to deny these facts in public. This is all on the public record. We know that they have lied about the impact of smoking on lung cancer. This has occurred over 50 years. This was a ruling from a US District Court Judge. Given the 50-year-plus history of what I think is very shameful behaviour and anything but the actions of a good corporate citizen, how do you expect to be able to change that through engagement with the industry? Dr Burgess : There is a lot of history there and opinions about the tobacco industry --  Senator DI NATALE: Are you denying that anything I have said is incorrect? This is not a question of opinion; this