out what salvation means for us collectively, and in our societies we're coping with enormous fractures and enormous challenges and problems, and I'm part of the problem, and we need to search for the solution together as well. So I find that a very personally challenging thing, so rather than coming from a comfortable position of telling others something, I'm coming with a sense of how can we work this out together. And yes, that's quite challenging for me. Kate: It seems Neil, that you've just articulated perhaps a journey that I'm just beginning, but I have to say that in the last six months I've become more acutely aware of my own relational handicaps and weaknesses, and less than ever feel that I'm in a position to deliver some kind of top-down message or to go and help people. Rachael Kohn: Can I ask you to give me an example of the kind of situation, or type of person that you find really difficult, that is really hard to relate to, that is hard to bring out the best in you? Gillian: Yes, I've found definitely that it's crucial really for all of us that from a spiritual perspective it's very easy to be very plastic spiritually when we don't have to engage with people. But I've had many problems in my life, but mental health issues is not one of them, and when I've had a couple of friends, one in particular, that really struggled, then I found