in my life as well; not just in their thinking, but in my thinking as well. And working for change in live, not just in terms of theology or doctrine. So I think for me, the mission I'm engaged with is I guess much more about changing me as well as others, much more about a mutual engagement with people and much more around life issues rather than a simple detached kind of verbal conversation with you. Rachael Kohn: Well you've just raised a wonderful point, and that is, how has your work affected you as Kate said, people who are marginalised are often evangelised and they are the focus always, but it is a two-way relationship. How important is the work that you do for you yourself, for your own spirituality? Neil: Someone once said, Rachael, that what you see depends on where you stand, and what you hear depends on who you listen to. And I think that's very true of what we're trying to say in the course here. And what we're doing here is we're seeking to engage with people and live with people and learn with people, and that's a very personally changing thing as well. It's a challenge for us, it's a challenge for me, and I know my view of salvation over the years has I guess deepened from bringing a message of salvation for others to more a perspective of I need saving too, I need help too. We need to work