why the theory is so different to the reality. It happened with the rating agencies, it happened in subprime lending where Angelo Mozilo's fatal flaw was ambition. He wanted his company to be number one and because the sleazy subprime lender down the road was making a loan, Countrywide did it too. FN: What qualities do you think the next generation of leaders need to make sure they don't make the same mistakes? BM: I think you can learn from the lessons from the past which is why books about the crisis are important. We used the words "devils" but we don't mean these are terrible people who set out to do bad things. Some people who are idealistic like Mozilo can end up doing very dangerous things. That's a lesson for any leader to take to heart. Choices of right or wrong are not presented to you in black and white. If they were I'm sure most people would choose white. Another thing I think is to always be open to sceptics who are pointing out what the flaw in the system is FN: How culpable were the public? BM: I still struggle with this to some extent. When I started the book I would've said that most of the blame belonged to the public because I believe in personal responsibility. But one of the revelations was the extent to which people were sold loans rather than sought them out. A couple of telling moments was when we found