observation that they have and do and that much of history has been driven by religious strife (there is even a news article today about hair related violence within the Amish community !!!). I don't think that in itself undermines the moral basis of Christianity as taught by Christ because religions are essentially human phenomena with all the wickedness that implies, but nor, when discussing persecution which is how this thread started, can Christianity simply ignore its own history of violence and persecution against non Christians and against Christians of a different flavour to those currently in the ascendancy. I note that Anders Breivik claims to be a militant Christian defending Christendom in Scandinavia. Obscene as such a claim is, religions cannot just ignore or gloss over the claims that are made on its behalf. A big part of CV's raison d'etre is that Islam is an inherently violent and jihadist faith. Most Muslims would reject this, but the fact remains that some of the imagery and some of the contents of the Quran, not to mention the hadith etc, seem to permit such an interpretation in the hands of extremists. I think that CV's attacks on Islam would be more plausible if Christianity's own history were addressed head on, and I have been very surprised at Stephen's reaction to what seems to me a very mild and obvious, and not intended to be hostile, point By all means say that those who truly love the Lord would not harm