Forget yourself, forget what he just said, forget it.' And that's the goddamn truth. So the band listened to me, and this is why I say that it kinda felt like I was taking the reins at that point. They looked at me like, 'What the hell, we just gave everything, we just got told we were worthless.' So the '97 tour was absolutely brutal. Brutal! We got through that thing and I quite frankly think that he does not even realise to this day that without me that European tour wouldn't have even happened. There was a lot going on there, and really, I think he's changed for the better now, he has to have, because you can't have people working for you and talk to them like that and expect them to work for you the next night. It's very very hard when you work in extreme music, getting people to do what you want them to do, to express a visualisation, it's quite difficult. So you have to swallow your ego and you have to realise that you're working for a genius - which I do think Michael is - and you have to do his bidding. It's not Swans, it's the Michael Gira Band, and when you realise that you're going to be fine. Wrapping up - you've mentioned you're working on your memoir, you've mentioned all these travels and changes. What else lies on the horizon for you, artistically, personally? J: I think it's pretty