When its been well done, (New Zealand, Denmark, Sweden, West Germany, France, etc) we see statistically successful (perhaps no five story yachts though) communities. 2.Re the 19th century. The reason you and I differ here, is because I do not assign 'success' in terms of economic growth alone. I look at a broad range of social factors. Slavery still existed until 1865 and I am sure most black people would say, well after that too, only it was not in law. The land robbery from indigenous was almost complete by then. Slave labour of women and children, commonplace. You cannot claim economic success of one group when it at the expense of another (several) groups. The fact that you try to will always place us at opposite ends of the debate. Don't call me a Marxist. I am not any kind of 'ist'. I think for myself. Apr 23 2012: sure there is pure capitalism. my previous metaphor was better. capitalism is the horse pulling the cart. the horse is very much okay without the cart. it is faster without it. socialism is "progress" in what sense? stealing is older than dirt. power is older than dirt. coercion is as old as history. giving it new names does not make it new. socialism done badly is simply a dictatorship disguised. it is not a cart. it is not a break pedal. it is a horrendous mass murdering madness. i'm not talking about that, and i tell you that like 5th