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—Otrfan (debate) 11 August 2018 at 10:58am (EEST) So when we in Finland have decided to choose two official languages for ourselves, but some other countries do not (even if there are as many or more speakers of other languages than us), then let's go with this “officiality” according to politics?


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But where is this “officiality” now, for example, defined for the UK, and by whom or what entity has defined it?


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And where is it defined that we go according to the “official language” and if we go, where is defined?


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What here is the source of this “officiality” now though in the UK, and what source globally defines what constitutes an “official language”?


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—Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:11am (EEST) I am not an expert, as you can easily see, but the adoption of Swedish as the official language of Finland was political realism.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:10pm (EEST) So this was not a rhetorical question but a matter of fact, when now e.g. As for Russia, you knew how to answer it from the pharmacy shelf.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:15am (EEST) I understand that there is no actual 'official' language in Britain (unless 'Queen's language' is considered as such), but there is no doubt that the language of the country is English.


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In addition, there are officially recognized minority</b>languages.


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The official status of Welsh in Wales does not mean that even the main language isn't English (or because of that, the law on the Welsh language is actually enacted).


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—Esamatti1 (discussion) 11 August 2018 at 11:26am (EEST) And as an overlapping edit with your answer the second question, when User:Savir above gave that UN link, which was the OSM map that gave the first Welsh name on the map, so what is the position of this source compared to some random Finnish universal map book of the whole world, where I guess the entire Welsh speaking area is described as something the size of a palm? —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:29am (EEST) And there is no need to go fishing across the Irish Sea: Irish is still Ireland's national language and first official language, but Irish cities are named after English in the Finnish language Wikipedia.


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The issue doesn't seem to be of interest to language activists because of the difficulty of making the Irish language a policy.


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Or should localities in Northern Ireland be named Irish, so would there be a row over that too?


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:41am (EEST) I suppose the important thing would be to have the principles written and followed open to ensure their neutrality, based on independent reliable sources, etc. —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:48am (EEST) I think it is important, but all the more problematic when we live through the political world.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:10pm (EEST) Welsh has two official languages: Welsh and English.


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There is no doubt that Finnish is the main language of Finland, but still other versions of Vikipedia use primarily the Swedish name of several localities in the Finnish Swedish region, and according to someone in this discussion, this is because these municipalities are themselves wished that they would be referred to in other language contexts primarily by a Swedish name.


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Very close to this principle would be what I suggested above, to see on the official website of a municipality in Wales what language name appears first (i.e. in the upper row or written on the left side) in the municipal logo, etc. (Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:06pm (EEST)) From the discussion above, I interpreted (and I would understand) that naming articles on Finnish localities in either language does not circulate to other wikis ao.


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through municipalities, but through the recommendations drawn up jointly by the Finnish and Swedish researchers of Kotus and the lists of names included in them, where I guess the starting point is that (a) the primacy of the municipality's name in Finnish or Swedish (if there is a name in either language) is decided by the municipality's name in Finnish or Swedish (if there is a name in either language) the basis of language relations, which is again provided for by law, that is, the majority language determines and the number of speakers of the language is obtained from official records.


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Smaller places will then go according to this, if the places have names in either language, and that the name exists in either language and what is the exact form of the name, while it is clear from the lists of place names and databases (where they are also exported to the map location online).


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Such compiled sources might imagine that there are equally in Britain, for example, road map makers. —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:29pm (EEST) It does not seem very coherent if in some cases we go by the language of the region/place and in some other cases again by the official language of the region/place (primary).


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If now, in the case of Ireland, it would be neutral to appoint places in English against the country's own language policy, since in most places the language language is English, then why is this principle that if there are several official names, then the language of the inhabitants of the place is determined not to be universally valid?


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What if it doesn't qualify, then why wouldn't the primary official language of the region/place be a neutral option?


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Ujanairi (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:08pm (EEST) The Dublin webpage gives the Irish format first, as does Cork.


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By the way, the sites are in English.


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Also in Wales, the status of Welsh is mainly symbolic and the real power language is English.


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For Finnish, the meaning of the Welsh language is marginal.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:27am (EEST) I did find an Irish version of the site on the Irish capital site: As such, it is a good question whether or not Irish localities could, or should, be used primarily in Irish names. in some cases - in Ireland, too, there are areas where more than 50% of the inhabitants are Irish speaking and where, in fact, signs are even monolingual in Irish.


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On the other hand, large localities such as the capital of a state are a little different because they have been practically already known to Finland by a certain name, in which case it can be difficult to change the practice.


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But it is quite different to talk about localities the size of “fly shitter” from Finland, for which there is no established name practice in Finnish, since almost no Finnish has ever heard the name of that locality in any language in his life.


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In Wales, by the way, the vitality of Welsh is stronger overall than Irish in Ireland and, as noted, is very regionally distributed, i.e. there are large areas in Wales where the vast majority of the population uses Welsh as their main everyday language (home language, school language, working language...) and in which public administration, for example, the main working and administrative language of a municipality or county is Welsh.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 12:38pm (EEST)) Irish is therefore more endangered than Welsh, but it is of no interest to language activists because it cannot make policy.


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Moreover, as far as I know, the Irish-speaking region of Ireland is officially monolingual, which its inhabitants are not at all happy about.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:51pm (EEST) What does this inaccurate claim that the Irish situation is of no interest to language activists relate to?


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What if it were true, in what way would it be relevant to this discussion?


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By the way, I don't see how your reactions answer my question.


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Ujanairi (discussion) 11 August 2018 at 1:10pm (EEST) I fix: not interested enough to start an editing war on the Finnish Wikipedia.


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The world is full of linguistic minorities, and if one place gives in to the slingers, it is about to start belting on all fronts.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 1:19pm (EEST) Now only vague accusations and insults came, and I still have not received a constructive response.


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Could we steer the debate in a more serious direction again and discuss rational principles that allow you to conclude what language name is most appropriate?


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Ujanairi (debate) 11 August 2018 at 1:50pm (EEST) Articles on geographical sites will be named in the country's official national language unless there is a Finnish designation.


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There's no more to discuss here.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 1:55pm (EEST) After all, no foreign language is, in principle, more marginal than another language for Finns, unless it is specifically aimed at marginalising it for ideological reasons.


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Or marginality is context-specific, and some language cannot be thought of as marginal, at least in the context of speaking of a locality where that language is an indigenous language and the main language of the local community today.


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The problem with these debates is that people who do not know Welsh or know anything about the Welsh language situation - whether they have ever been to Wales, or at least not in the most Welsh speaking areas - come to say that Welsh is not really spoken anywhere, but it is just” symbolic” language.


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And if anyone believes that for themselves, there is no fact translating such a person's head, such as the fact that in Gwynedd, well over half of the inhabitants speak Welsh, with Welsh as the language of instruction in every school and Welsh as the primary working language of local government.


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Also well illustrates the level of this debate that linguists (or students in the field) who defend the visibility of local languages are called “hihhules” and that in relation to this field, lay people (let us correct, for example, Esamatti1 if he has any education related to the field) come to tell you exactly for linguists specialising in language policy, social status of languages and power relations between languages in their own studies and/or research, which is the “official language of the country”.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:17pm (EEST)) Wikipedia is not a community of experts.


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Here others are licentiates and others have, five years ago, finished their bachelor's thesis, but that makes no difference.


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The main language of Britain and Wales is English.


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The meaning and usage value of the Finnish language is very low for the average user of Wikipedia in Finnish.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:34pm (EEST) Whether there is a community of experts or not, I would at least not go to argue against a matter which I know someone has more detailed knowledge and a deeper understanding than myself, let alone begin to appoint debaters commenting on questions in their field of speciality as “hihhules”.


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As a modifier of vikipedia, I have focused on writing mainly on issues on which I have more than average Finnish knowledge, mainly minority languages, areas where a minority language is spoken and people who are in the area of speaking a minority language socially or culturally significant and well-known persons.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:48pm (EEST)) When you talk about minority languages, could you at least try to write Wikipedia correctly so that Hawaiian speakers are not offended.


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—Otrfan (debate) August 11, 2018 at 2:53pm (EEST) I think that “vikipedia” is some sort of ideological “value"choice.


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I'm not a fan of double vein either, but I suppose there is some recommendation or community consensus on the issue, and I submit to it.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:59pm (EEST) In the conversation, everyone can write as they wish in their own comments.


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I find it interesting that in many versions of vikipedia the spelling of the word “wikipedia” has been adapted to the sound or writing system of the language in question, and that is why I myself use the Finnish spelling vikipedia in this kind of free-form discussion.


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In principle, it would be possible to make it the official name of vikipedia in Finnish, but I have no interest in sacrificing my time in promoting this issue, although personally I am very fond of this spelling.


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I would hope to keep up on topic, rather than argue beside the point.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 3:12pm (EEST)) There is no need for discussion if the State has only one official language and this language is also the main language of the region.


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However, the issue is apparently not that easy anywhere in the world, so yes there would still be debate.


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E.g. The main language of Switzerland is undoubtedly (Swiss) German, but the French and Italian language versions of the French and Italian languages are nevertheless used in the Finnish Wikipedia, since these languages are also the official languages of Switzerland and, moreover, the main languages of the regions concerned, even though German has official status in it and the canton is home to a sizeable German-speaking minority, doesn't it?


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On the other hand, the names of the country's actual national language (Swiss German) are unlikely to appear in the Finnish Wikipedia of Missi, as it does not have official status.


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On the other hand, I don't think Irish and Welsh names are even valid in areas where those languages are the main languages of the local community.


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So do you currently have any principles other than that the author chooses the name according to his own liking without thinking about consistency?


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Ujanairi (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:36pm (EEST) Switzerland is a federal state with each canton having its own official languages.


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Irish-speaking areas of Ireland are, I understand, officially monolingual.


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Wales is an autonomous region whose laws are passed by the British Parliament.


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The country's predominant language is English and, alongside it, has officially recognised status.


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What's so hard to get confused about this?


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:47pm (EEST) Wales has extensive self-government and its own legislative body, which e.g.


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enact all laws regarding language.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:50pm (EEST)) That is, the main language is used because the language is used.


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But on what basis and according to what practice? —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:58pm (EEST) And what or who at any time defines which language is the “power language”?


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Independent external source, like or scream vote, or does the fact that the proxy language happens to be language a or language b?


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And if an independent external source, then what?


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A map book in Finnish has been presented, are there any others? —Urjanhai (discussion) 11 August 2018 at 3:09pm (EEST) Based on consistency, usability and the needs of the Finnish-speaking user.


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To avoid future editing wars over, say, New Zealand's Māori language names.


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Nomination sources are used and, if necessary, resort to map books.


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—Esamatti1 (discussion) 11 August 2018 at 3:13pm (EEST) “The needs of the Finnish-speaking user” are in no way objectively measurable.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 3:17pm (EEST)) I am regrettably Finnish (I speak Finnish 100 times more fluently than any of the six languages I say I speak in the general context, not to mention writing) and my need is just different from yours, Dear Esamatti1.Iivarius (debate) 11 August 2018 at 18:06pm (EEST) The name order of the logo found on the municipality's own website would be independent of the source and as close as possible to the people's own position.


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After all, they have their own representatives voted into the local council and the local council ultimately decides what the municipal logo looks like.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 3:17pm (EEST)) I personally would support a source at the highest level of organisation possible.


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In Finland, the official language of the municipality is not even decided by the municipal council, but by law and the ratio of the population.


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Only if the municipality wants to be bilingual voluntarily, if it does not have to, it is allowed to make that choice, but even then the list of municipalities' linguistics is at a higher level, and the majority language is determined by population ratios anyway.


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In some other country it may be otherwise, and I'm not familiar with e.g. The situation in Wales, but even if, for example, the municipalities themselves have the power to decide, in all cases, it would be surprising if we did not have a person responsible for keeping records of them.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 3:25pm (EEST) Well, if we take the highest possible organisational position on this issue, then we will come to an interesting result which, of course, would not hinder me in any way, but on the contrary: the National Assembly for Wales, i.e. the whole of Wales a self-governing body granted power by the British Parliament to decide e.g.


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on the whole language policy in Wales, has passed a law in 2016 requiring that in all road signs Welsh names are placed first: “Where a sign contains the Welsh language as well as the English language, the Welsh language text must be positioned so as to be read first.”


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(If anyone has since visited Wales and seen signs where the language order is different, this is because of course not all signs have been introduced in such a small period of time.)


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Welsh language policy could be characterised as such that laws enacted by the National Assembly for Wales give certain minimum standards for the kind of language policy to be conducted at lower levels of government, but on matters of which the National Assembly is not unequivocal the law drafted, decided at the county or municipal level.


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At county level, I believe, it is decided, for example, on the language policy of schools, i.e. how much and in which localities there are Welsh or English schools in a given county.


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All counties are obliged to use both Welsh and English in their public communications, but they can decide for themselves what is the internal working language and the language of internal communication (i.e. in which the decisions and opinions of the county administration are prepared and in which language the results of the work will eventually just be translated).


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Indeed, a few in the county council have taken a decision by voting to use Welsh as a working language within the administration.


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As for municipalities, they are, of course, again subject to the minimum standards for language policy set by the National Assembly for Wales and, at the same time, their own county, but otherwise they have free rein to decide, for example, what constitutes an internal working language in local government.


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In summary, you could therefore say that in Wales there are no single and bilingual municipalities in the same sense as in Finland, so that one could make a centralised list of municipalities indicating which municipality is in which language.


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For certain matters Welsh is compulsory under the laws of the National Assembly to be used throughout Wales, while some matters are decided at lower levels of government.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 5:07pm (EEST)) Wikipedia article names are not decided on the basis of street signs or online logos.


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I think it's about time we stopped worrying about it.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 5:13pm (EEST) That was something to be expected because I suppose in most countries the language policy arrangements are their own.


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Generally, nomenclature sources, which can be used as sources in Wikipedia, are produced by the authorities and research institutes responsible for nomenclature management in each country and are diverted to more general use.


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- Eg, bring someone previously linked map.


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Or how eg names are on local highway general maps, gt maps, etc?


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Here again, then, the aspiration would be to upper-level independent, reliable and comprehensive sources.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 5:53pm (EEST) But do not the maps mainly reflect the language policy pursued, that is, would it not be more straightforward to justify the practice with a language policy than a map?


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But if you have to find a map now, how about this: The direct link to the map is here: The map will be more readable if the lowest tick (predictive agricultural land classification) is not selected in the menu displayed on the left.


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This is therefore a map produced by the Welsh Autonomous Body, which describes land uses, etc.


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Other maps produced by the Welsh Government I failed to quickly guugling find.


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The map app can be used in English and Welsh languages.


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The links I provided are to the English version, and you can change the language version from the top right button by selecting “Cymraeg” or “English” in the Welsh version.


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Noteworthy, however, that when using the map app in English, all place names with different names in Welsh and English appear on the map so that the Welsh place name predates the English language.


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This applies to the whole of Wales.


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So if it is official policy in Wales (judging from this map) that even the English readership is presented with maps giving Welsh names before English speakers, then I can't really think of a reason why it should be done differently with the Finnish-speaking readership. .


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) on 12 August 2018 at 11:10am (EEST)) The problem may be that e.g. Language policy in Finland and Norway, together with other infrastructure and research policies, produces maps that are reliable and transparent, secure nomenclature sources and deal with different languages equally and neutrally.


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It is possible that in all countries this is not the case.


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What is the situation e.g. In Wales, I can't say.


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Both Finland and Norway, for example, have online watercourse maps, but they show nomenclature in both Finnish and, for example, Sámi, nomenclature, which can be seen as eros compared to nomenclature data based on nomenclature, e.g. national surveying institutions in map services ().


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(I don't know Sámi, but you can tell if you compare different services, and when you compare Finnish services with Finnish, you can see the same.)


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The most terrible kura is some American geonames I already referred to (a hill called Ryssänovens Ryssughar).


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In any case, that language policy itself is probably written somewhere (or not, I can't say, in Finland it is).


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On the other hand, I suppose the real issue here is this 1) the use of Finnish map books as a source of nomenclature (yes or no, and in what cases) and 2) “the use of the “kingdom language” of each country as serving “Finnish readers”.


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In Finnish, I suppose we have some of the world map books translated from the international atlas, where e.g. Wales is typically something the size of one or two palms or that class at the maximum.


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Then the question may arise that if one object happens to appear on such a map and another object does not, then whether we should stick to some random Finnish world map book, if, for example, in more detailed maps that are not printed in Finnish as books, the names missing from these books and perhaps a large number of other names are the other way around.


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(And in addition, tests can be done on those translated maps: If they say something like Lakhdenpokhya or Ryssughar, then it is quite clear that the source cannot be of high quality.)


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Or, on the other hand, is the purpose of some random map book translated into multiple languages the same as Wikipedia as an encyclopedia?


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You can actually evaluate it by studying these map books.


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That is, when we have e.g. Nomenclature source databases such as that eki.ee are used in the surrounding regions of Finland, so if accurate, we would be forced to use elsewhere if we want to follow the principles of wikipedia.


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That is, therefore, look for reliable and independent external sources.


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Somewhere, besides the names and languages of the opposite, can be a contentious political issue.


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What are we supposed to do then?


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In this case, it may be necessary to look at, for example, what national organisations such as the UN have recommended the use of names.


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And again, accordingly, to look for these sources of nomenclature and evaluate them.


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Nomenclature sources are decided on wikipedia communally: Wikipedia:Nomenclature sources.


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And then as another question, this “proxy language” or “official language”.


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If such a concept is a criterion, then there must also be a reliable, independent and neutral source for the criterion concept.


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And likewise, the alignment based on the criterion should be in line with the general principles of wikipedia - such as Wikipedia:Checkability, Wikipedia:Neutrality, and on the other hand it should correspond to the same alignments outside wikipedia, for which there are often also independent and reliable sources.


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It is quite obvious that arguments exist in favour of the fact that when, for example, much information and information in the world passes through major languages such as Enlanti, German, French, Spanish, Russian, etc., there is some clarity about the use of the names used by speakers of these languages will.


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But then these principles should also be expressed and written open transparently and clearly.


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That is, what is the “official language” and what is the “language of power” (if it is up to it), and what does, for example, the de-wiki e.g. now the Welsh name that has been the starting point of this debate is in the form it is, although at the same time de wiki has Närpes and Lohja.


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That is, whether the procedure is based on a conscious reasoned choice, or simply because the whole issue of that part of the world has not happened to be addressed.


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In EN-wiki, I do a lot of work on issues like this, but in this case when the other language is the wiki's own language and the whole issue is therefore not up to date, the solution must be sought elsewhere, i.e.


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where has been concluded and on what basis in the en-wiki in cases where the other language is not English, or where has been concluded in these British Isles cases in Wikis whose language is not English.


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So far, that chart-book argument has gained support, but there may be other arguments.


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When different Wikipedias (predictably I guess others you've edited yourself) have different positions taken on this, then this about at least roughly suggests that there may be different positions.


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But, of course, only insofar as the issue has been considered and the result of the reflection is justified.


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That is, since wikipedia is not a source, the only thing that is interesting then is what are the arguments by which each wikipedia's positions may have been substantiated.


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On the other hand, many times again what outcome has been reached seems to vary randomly.


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If you want to change this kind of thing, you can be prepared to do major preparatory work through the Wikipedia principles.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 12 August 2018 at 1:07pm (EEST) There are a lot of cases where border drawing can be difficult if, for example, the region has already “originally” been multilingual or if the change of the main language in the region has occurred a long time ago, but I still think there are cases where the use of a minority language should be clear as day, at least if ALL of the following conditions are met: 1) In the locality or region


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the language is clearly more original with respect to the state's proxy language.


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2) Even today, more than 50% of the inhabitants of the locality or region speak ko.


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language according to a reliable source.


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3) It is the practice of a locality, a region or even an autonomous community as a whole to use it.


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linguistic names as primary names in those contexts in which both names occur in parallel.


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Could it be taken as a principle that local names could be used as primary names at LEAST for those place names for which all these conditions are met?


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One could then discuss how to do if only some of these conditions are met and hone the details.


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(Jani Koskiin (discussion) 12 August 2018, 1:55pm (EEST)) Yes, not good.


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It is pointless to discuss with such people, the same enmity will continue for eternity.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 12 August 2018 at 3:25pm (EEST) Just asking: has anyone ever noticed that Esamatti1 would admit to being wrong?


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No, of course not.


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His actions make me understand Leonid Markelov at times.


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Iivarius (debate) 12 August 2018 at 4:54pm (EEST) The point here is that we need to find general sources and justify the choice of this general source using Wikipedia principles such as WP:reviewability, WP:neutrality, WP:no new research, etc.


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Calculations of the percentages of language users and the impact of this on matters and recommendations or regulations on this basis may well have been done by some authorities somewhere ao.


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in the country or may be, for example, general recommendations of international organisations or international agreements, etc. These recommendations and regulations of the authorities of each country or, for example, international agreements can then be communicated neutrally, and when e.g. The Finnish authorities have made their own policies, so at least de-wiki nicely names their articles on the places in Finland after them.


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There can then be a debate as to which general source we should go with, that our action on the matter should be based on the principles of Wikipedia (at least those above, perhaps others).


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compliant.


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That is, for example, is some random atlas of the world translated into Finnish just in this matter a sufficiently high quality and reliable source?


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It may or may not be.


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It needs to be investigated and, against the principles of Wikipedia, clarified.


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Sometimes e.g. Wikipedia had information that Köyliönjärvi counts Kokemäenjoki and a map of this kind as the source.


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Then the source was not of sufficient quality in that very matter and the choice of source was not justified.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 12 August 2018 at 4:35pm (EEST) I will now clarify: I suppose sometimes there were some apparently diligent and well-deserved modifiers who had the agenda to change all the place names of Finland and neighbouring regions to Finnish, even when there were no changes reliable source or source in the first place, and the source may have been provided even with suomi24.fi discussions.


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When this has been a while, I can no longer remember whether it followed or whether it happened, regardless of this, that the database eki.ee in the neighbouring regions of Finland and Kotus publications in Finland was taken as the source of the name, or whether these had already been established independently of this.


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But then when there was a clear source then it was clear and chattering away.


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That is, clarity is thus obtained by engaging with arguments based on wikipedia principles, the debate breeding, which reliable, high-quality, independent and neutral source in whatever matter is chosen to follow. —Urjanhai (debate) 12 August 2018 at 5:06pm (EEST) The “language activist” in question was therefore User:Inzulac and his alterego, who might be described only as “diligent”.


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Similar problems here are tried to avoid.


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A couple of examples of Kittean “language activism”:,.


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Is this what we want on Wikipedia?


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 12 August 2018 at 5:16pm (EEST) When the most active period was apparently even before I started editing myself, and especially since those alter egos for the same reason do not find out, then my understanding is really not very accurate, especially with regard to those elder stages .


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—Urjanhai (debate) 12 August 2018 at 5:34pm (EEST) I hope Esamati's time will pass smoothly as he researches my background from another site.


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I can justify in another context why the local (kin) form of place names in Finland could be presented on road signs and why there really would be nothing miraculous if we compare with developments that have occurred in many other regions of Europe in recent times in decades.


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In this context, however, I will not comment on the matter, as this is now primarily about languages, 1) which have as well established a writing system and language maintenance as Finnish or English, 2) which already have official status in their own speaking area, and 3) which are owned by local governments language policy even in many cases favors relative to the conqueror language.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 13 August 2018 at 5:04pm (EEST)) I, too, have spoken very much about the regulations and practices of each country's own authorities here, at least as far as Wales is concerned.


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All possible regulations made by Welsh authorities and administration on inter-language order support the primacy of Welsh: using Welsh names on road signs as priority throughout Wales, using Welsh names as priorities for Welsh Government in the map produced and the use of the names in the Welsh-language language primarily for municipalities, etc.


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the administrative departments on their own websites.


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These are the only facts that can be pointed to, as far as the language policies of the country's own authorities are concerned.


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It should be sufficient to take as a principle the country's own language policy, at least in countries where minority languages have genuine opportunities to promote their cause through politics at all.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 13 August 2018 at 4:09pm (EEST)) “The Conqueror Language” also tells quite a lot about your ideology.


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I have made my argument, and I accept Savir's solution.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 13 August 2018 at 6:31pm (EEST) I have now transferred almost all the articles on the locality of Wales and Scotland to the names of the Map Centre I mentioned here, insofar as they are mentioned.


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Some of them were already under the right name.


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I also added a source reference to the articles I transferred to make them better safe from now on.


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Other Finnish atlases I've browsed seem to have these same names, but I haven't gone through all of them.


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There are also those in Geographica that this map of the Map Center does not have.


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Also, there would be plenty of opportunities to tinker with names by analogy on the same principle.


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—Savir (debate) 13 August 2018 at 6:20pm (EEST) Savir has now moved articles away from their original names.


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I returned some back to their original names and Savir retweeted them so started an editing war.


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Is there going to be an edit block for him like it came to me?


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 13 August 2018 at 20:14 (EEST)) The rule is that if you undo the same edit for the third time without discussion on the subject, you commit editing wars.


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Savir apparently concluded that there would have been enough arguments in favour of his position in this debate, which had attracted the support of some of the participants in the debate.


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However, everything related has certainly not yet been brought up and further arguments can still be made.


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If further arguments are made, then they can be debated.


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The names Lorraine and Lothringen were even sometimes voted on, but I would see that continuing the debate and especially looking for sources and critical walkthroughs is a more fruitful way to go, as well as looking for what kind of arguments have made decisions in other wikis.


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- Often, though, it is so that the most persistent or smooth movement gets its position across, so sources outside wikipedia are better.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 13 August 2018 at 8:28pm (EEST) I don't think anyone could do the actual summary of the debate yet and of course someone (tm) could do it. —Urjanhai (debate) 13 August 2018 at 8:29pm (EEST) I think the real question is whether the Finnish map book produces an exonym.


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On the other hand, if you can turn the head of the chart-book publisher into the next edition, you will be strong. —Urjanhai (debate) 13 August 2018 at 8:31pm (EEST) Such “analogue tinkering” already goes so much on the side of your own research that it also raises doubts about the validity of the map books themselves as a source and the compliance with Wikipedia's policies in this context and for that I would not consider the matter definitively resolved.


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If there is a nomenclature source, then yes it should cover the entire nomenclature, and if the source does not cover the entire nomenclature, then is it the nomenclature source?


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—Urjanhai (debate) 13 August 2018 at 22:01pm (EEST) On the basis of the criteria put forward until now, I would not be able to use the phrase “for real names”.


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There may be sufficient arguments (when you would only know which way), but I would see that they haven't been exhaustively presented yet.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 13 August 2018 at 10:10pm (EEST) Refining the place name policy Wikipedia:Naming convention #Vieraskielinen place naming includes the practice of retrieving Russian place names only from EKI.


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The policy would need to be refined and agreed more thoroughly on the language of place names and which nomenclature sources are used in the articles.


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Guidelines on this have already been outlined above.


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—Raksa123 (debate) 13 August 2018 at 9:12pm (EEST) What language place name is Vienna?


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Iivarius (debate) 13 August 2018 at 22:00 (EEST) One thing that has not yet been raised is whether the Centre for Domestic Languages may have made any recommendations or guidance on which language names should be used in Finnish contexts such as these.


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I think this should be investigated.


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Another, which has also not been raised, whether the Kotus' instructions online or in books have highlighted something related to this.


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For example, there are very specific instructions on inflections of place names in different languages.


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The third, which has not been raised, is whether names such as this have been introduced in Finnish guidebooks on geographical names of the world, e.g. those written by Kerkko Hakulinen, and this newer “Parisian parrot noska”, etc.


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In addition, there may be booklets in the fields of denomination research and nomenclature where the topic may have been paged.


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In addition to this, one could look at other sources in Finnish, such as science fiction and non-fiction on these areas.


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After that come the corresponding international sources.


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That is, on the other hand, occurrences of the use of names in maps and map services of that country and, accordingly, in maps and map services of other speaking countries, because their relationship with that country and its languages as outsiders is the same as our own, i.e. an outsider.


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On the other hand, any recommendations from third countries or international scientific research, or recommendations of nation-wide organisations or any international agreements.


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- There has been no exhaustive examination of these either so far.


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And further from these, or also otherwise, it can become precisely the question that, whether there should be nomenclature sources, and if so what and on what basis defined.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 13 August 2018 at 10:51pm (EEST) The page contains open data from the Ordnance Survey, apparently the UK Land Survey.


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There you can find, for example, where there are different lingual forms of place names.


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is probably accurate enough to show all the place names, since the scale is 1:3,000-1:20 ,000.


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An overview can be obtained from a more inaccurate map.


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—Raksa123 (debate) 13 August 2018 at 10:57pm (EEST) 1:250 000 map (map sheet SH.tif) the island is “Bardsey Island/Ynys Enlli” and the strait next to it is “Bardsey Sound”.


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On the other hand, in that more accurate Local map (map sheet SH12SW.tif), the island is “Ynys Enlli/Bardsey Island” and the strait “Swnt Enlli/Bardsey Sound”.


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—Raksa123 (debate) 19 August 2018 at 12:41pm (EEST) I propose this as a hierarchy of sources for the selection of the name: Specific recommendation issued by the Language Office General rule The format used in the Finnish map book Conclusive general rule Used by another quality source in Finnish, such as a non-fiction book or expert UN recommendation UN Recommendation General rule to be inferred from UN recommendations The country itself in its primary official language and in Latin letters name format used by a map published by a Wikipedia article in the primary official language of that administrative region Within each category a newer or otherwise justifiably higher quality recommendation overturns the parent.


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—Savir (debate) 16 August 2018 at 10:14pm (EEST) I believe that the outline is in the right direction, except that “map books in Finnish” are problematic insofar as there are no guarantees (unless the principles and procedures are explicitly opened, e.g. a map book in the preface) on what the solutions are based on.


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They may be sources of mostly Finnish conciliatory names vs.


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for the use of primordial names, which tend to be mainly found in places very large or very close to Finland.


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Furthermore, they tend to be small-scale and contain only a pene portion of the names, and the delineation of what names can fit on the map is haphazard from the point of view of the ensemble of the nomenclature.


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The “reasoning of the general foundations” on the basis of such material is already new research and, as far as I can see, is not out of the question.


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If general rules on the use of foreign country place names are presented e.g. Kotus, let's be on more solid ground.


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With the comprehensive datasets produced by the country's own authorities, the same is already on a more solid basis.


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Such materials may also include or involve written and declared statements with justifications.


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The principles may also be presented by international organisations or may be included in international agreements.


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Today, when maps are produced from spatial data, the same data sets often appear in both maps and databases, both of which, at least in the EU, may also exist as open data.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 16 August 2018 at 10:52pm (EEST) I am opposed to such rules if they lead to articles being named inconsistently just because a single map book happens to use some specific format from a single location.


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Urjanhai has some good points above.


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For example, place names must be transliterated uniformly and can be used as forms consistent with some rational logic.


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For example, the rivers of Japan may appear in world atlases of what kind of spellings, but all rivers in Wikipedia must be named rationally according to a unified logic.


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Local knowledgeable sources are, in many cases, better and more reliable than general maps covering the world, whose authors cannot be more closely familiar with the conditions of many regions.


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It must be possible to exercise case-by-case judgement and at least not elevate general map books above other sources.


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The English Wikipedia often names and transliterates articles just how it hurts if a form has happened to appear in some English source — not go into such chaos.


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—Epiq (discussion) 17 August 2018 at 01:09am (EEST) First in my list are the Language Office guidelines to help avoid those problems you fear.


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They can be found, for example, which say that Japanese names are Latinized by the Hepburn system.


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In this map, too, the rivers of Japan are written in the same way as here, except that they are joined again by the river.


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In my list, the general recommendation of the Language Office is item 2 and thus higher than the writing format given by the atlas, so the name format used here is consistent with it.


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Why would you oppose that?


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What source would you like to name Japan's rivers?


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Not a Japanese, “local knowledgeable source” adds to the end of their rivers as they are Japanese-speaking sources.


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And do they know that the Hepburn system is used in Finland?


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In Japan, the Kunrei system is used.


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Only Finnish-language sources and Finnish transfer writing standards know the correct forms of writing into Finnish language.


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And in my map, I think they are also correct, and I already told you that this atlas uses the UN referral recommendations.


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If they were not correct or used in Finland, the Language Office's recommendations would be used to find the right forms.


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It is with the use of consistent Finnish recommendations and atlases that the chaos you fear will be avoided, not by starting to hunt for the “real” name of each locality on a case-by-case basis on god knows what foreign-language website.


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Moreover, this debate is not so much about even that but the choice of the language version of the name.


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—Savir (debate) 17 August 2018 at 02:10am (EEST) And for that the map book is opaque: it is not possible to know what the content is based on if it is not reported in relation to a topic.


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Sometimes when I researched something by comparing different encyclopedias, I noticed that texts are recycled from one encyclopedia to another.


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On that, I agree there needs to be general sources.


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Nowadays, map books are already starting to be a bit ancient, and inevitably databases and map services are highlighted (they were on the en-wiki list too), and printed sources in Finnish are being driven down. —Urjanhai (debate) 17 August 2018 at 08:09am (EEST) Other sources are mentioned in addition to map books.


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In the Finnish language region, where up-to-date map books today consist of a number of thin maps of the world with the fingers of one hand, these map books are sources of such a general level that only limited information can be obtained from them.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

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In cases where a decision is made to either preserve or change the name outfit or add a Finnish attribute, they may be reliable as regards this modification and insertion.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

A good test can be, for example, veäläinen names: They should be transliterated differently in Finnish than in English.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

The quality and “Finnish language” of the map book can then be judged by whether this has been done.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

But when Russia is a large country and many other countries small, then what is the consideration of the corresponding nipples by country?


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

In map books that are made in large language areas, these nipples can be made or not, depending on the quality of the source.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

The highest-quality and thickest map books may not even be finalized.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

Or if you do Finnish or translate into other languages, will you be taken into account if the initial language of the map is English? —Urjanhai (debate) 17 August 2018 at 08:26am (EEST) There is a very extensive instruction on naming geographical places in Enkkuwiki.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

I have not read it completely, and I do not know if it is entirely in line with my own position, but as far as I can see, even there, many times, the texts written in that Wikipedia's own language (English there, we have English, respectively Finnish) are given priority.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

It says “When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it.”


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

and the section “Widely accepted name” defines mentioned “widely accepted names”.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

Atlases are also mentioned at the top of the list of nomenclature sources.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

—Savir (debate) 16 August 2018 at 11:25pm (EEST) The arguments and arguments of other wikis really worth examining and exploiting carefully, because often there has been extensive development and experience in structuring issues and structuring them according to Wikipedia principles.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

This detailed instruction is well suited as a starting point and it is worth copying it accurately rather than ragging.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

In other things, we have had the biggest problems with copying a line from en-wiki instructions from there and another from here and then trying to fill the gaps with minnow instead of returning to the sources.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

Of course, only when Finnish is a small language and English is a big one, then the boundaries will be met at a different point.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

But atlases really in Finland, where there are a few map books in Finland, where e.g. Wales is the size of a pack of matches, are completely marginal source.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

That is, “general” Finnish-language sources are non-existent.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

So then we will be forced to go further than the sea to fish. —Urjanhai (debate) 17 August 2018 at 08:09am (EEST) The second policy page mentions “For lesser known geographical objects or structures with few reliable English sources, follow the translation convention, if any, used for well known objects or structures of the same type e.g.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

because Rheintal and Moseltal are translated Rhine Valley and Moselle Valley, it makes sense to translate lesser known valley names in the same way.”


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

That means that if no Finnish name source is found for a minor place, it can be named in Finnish like similar places, even if that name has not been found anywhere.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

—Savir (debate) 16 August 2018 at 11:34pm (EEST) In fact, that doesn't mean it, because that means a different thing.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

About the case.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

that name is chosen from local names has its own points in that guideline.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

That reasoning that language choice should be similarly done is your own.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

In Finland, we also have Närpiö Närpes, Merikarvia Sastmola, etc. on the coast, and they change on a case-by-case basis, and there are name-naming principles defined for them out there (i.e. in an agency called kotus in Finland) and lists of permits on how to name the place and how to name the place the list of deadlines will be updated.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

We cannot know anything about similar stuff in some other bilingual region of the country, but it sits on top of that information, if there is such a thing. —Urjanhai (debate) 17 August 2018 at 08:09am (EEST) The pragmatic perspective on the matter is that when we are a small country, most things are enmeshed in our consciousness through the main language of each country or, more generally, the languages of the world, and at least some countries have a chosen line uses the country's power language in place names.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

(E.g. In Russia, excluding places with a Finnish name, because the language of our own wiki is Finnish.)


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

And this principle has been upheld here, and it may be that it was written into something.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

Then, of course, if this principle is to be followed, it will be followed, and it will be clearly written out and justified.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

- Or if there are arguments to discuss, they will be discussed.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

But not that the fig leaf of this principle, driving a snake into a gun, is put something like “map books”, insofar as the introductions to the map books do not have the principles followed in them expresslynot opened.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

To the extent that has been opened, and the reasoning is ok, can be followed.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

Because there is a bias in that filtering principle that if a proxy language along the way uses its own forms, then are they always correct as such when transferred to the Finnish context.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

If the Finnish text says e.g. Tagus, Vienna, Florence, Lakhdenpokhya, Ulyanovsk or Ulyanowsk, then they are wrong.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

- These examples are easy when almost everyone with general education knows what is right, but what about more complex cases?


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

—Urjanhai (debate) 17 August 2018 at 09:01am (EEST) The above method of using place names according to the country's national language (if there is no Finnish name format) would be at least a simple practice.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

I guess there is no statistic from Germany as to whether some municipalities in Schleswig-Holstein have a Danish- or Frisian-speaking majority.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

Likewise, Austria has a few municipalities where the majority speak Slovene, Hungarian or Croatian.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

In South Tyrol, one would need to investigate whether the majority language of the municipality is German, Italian or Ladini.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

If there were language statistics, then in small municipalities the majority language might change frequently and article names would have to be changed back and forth.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

—Raksa123 (debate) 19 August 2018 at 12:51pm (EEST) Kappas but.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

, tar.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

—Feathers (debate) 20 August 2018 at 3:40pm (EEST) If the debate is to continue, it would be better suited to the discussion page of the Naming Policy Guide, because here it is, for example, under the threat of filing.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

I opened a chain there.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

I also added a reminder to the instruction that foreign-language place names are, in principle, subject to the same naming guidelines as other articles.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

I think that rule has not been repealed so far.


Question: Where did the project to establish a Grand Mosque in Helsinki fall?

Archive 44

—Savir (debate) 5 September 2018 at 7:30pm (EEST)


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Dareios I (, in Ancient Persian Darayavaush,, circa 549 BCE.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

— 485 BC)


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

was king of Persia from 521—485 BCE.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Dareios belonged to an offshoot of the Asemenid ruler family.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

He seized power from Cyrus the Great's son Smerdi.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Immediately after Dareios ascended to power, several rebellions broke out, which he was nevertheless defeated.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Dareios reformed the administration of the kingdom established by Cyrus the Great, including through the so-called satrap system.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

He also reformed the taxation of the kingdom and embarked on major construction projects.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Dareios also reformed legislation that had remained almost unchanged since the time of Hammurabi.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Dareios expanded his empire all the way to Armenia and Pontos.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

He also invaded India, capturing the Indus River valley.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

He also made a war expedition against the Scythians living in present-day Ukraine in 512 BCE.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Dareios's army crossed the Danube and advanced perhaps as far as the Volga.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Dareios also sent his kinsman Mardonios to take Thrace.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

The most famous of Dareios is probably that he sent an army to punish Athens and Eretria for helping the Ionian Greeks in their revolt against Persia.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

The Athenians beat Persian troops at the Battle of Marathon in 490 BC.. Dareios's son Xerxes I attempted, after Dareios's death, to retake Greece, but he too failed.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Family Dareios's father was the high-ranking Persian Hystaspes, who fought in the army of Cyrus the Great.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Cyrus's son Kambyses probably appointed Hystaspee as satrap of Parthia.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Hystaspes held at least this position in 522 BCE.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Dareios had three younger brothers Artabanos, Artafernes and Artanes.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

He also had at least two sisters.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Herodotus tells us that when Kambyses II took over Egypt, Darios had Darios as his spear bearer.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Hystaspee's father Arsames was still alive when Dareios became king.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Arsamee's father was Ariaramnes, whose father Teispes was the son of Akhemenee, the founder of the Achenid ruler family.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

Dareios claimed that his ancestors had ruled as kings, but this is considered his propaganda.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

There is also no definite evidence that Dareios was related to Cyrus the Great.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

After becoming king, Dareios married two daughters of Cyrus the Great.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

With Atossa, the widow and half-sister of Kambyses II, he had four sons: Xerxes (who became his father's successor), Ariamenes, Akhaemenes, and Hystaspes.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

With Artystone, Dareios had three children: Arsames, Gobryas, and Artozostre.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios I

He also married Smerd's daughter Parmys and they had a son together named Ariomardos.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios also married Faidymia, daughter of Otanee, a high-ranking Persian.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Before his ascension to the throne, Dareios was married to the daughter of another Persian aristocrat, Gobrya.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

[1] The First Years of the Coup In 522 BCE.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Smerdis, son of Cyrus the Great, rebelled against his brother Kambyses II.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Smerdis was at that time the land lord of Bactria and his brother, King Kambyses II was in Egypt.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Kambyses died shortly after the start of the revolt at Smerd.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

The Greek historian Herodotus says that Smerdis would have been an impostor, who actually was a member of the Medic Mage who resembled Smerd.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios, according to Herodotus, accompanied Cambyses II in Egypt and acted as his spear-bearer, apparently being one of the king's main aides.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios probably rose to head the army upon Kambysee's death.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

[2] Soon some high-ranking Persians learned of this and began planning a coup d'état.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Initially, the conspiracy involved Otanes, Gobryas, Intafrenes, Hydarnes, Megabyzos and Aspathines.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

According to Herodotus, Otanes was the originator of the conspiracy and probably the most authoritative member besides Dareios because his sister had been the wife of Cyrus the Great.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

[3] Soon Dareios also joined the conspiracy.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Together, these seven went to the royal palace on 29 September 522 BCE.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

The guards let them inside because it was seven of Persia's most authoritative figures.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

At the palace, the king's eunuchs inquired from the conspirators what business they had for the king.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Together, the conspirators murdered a sleeping Smerd.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Herodotus tells how the coup d'etat negotiated after Smerd's murder about how Persia should be governed.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios advocated kingship, Megabyzos advocated oligarchy, and Otanes advocated democracy.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

In the end, Dareios's position prevailed.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

The coup plotters decided to hold a contest to see who would become king.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Otanes opted out of the competition although he had a good chance of becoming king because of his prestige and lineage.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

The other six decided that Otanes and his descendants could live in freedom in the future and would never have to obey the king.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

[4] According to Herodotus, the six remaining conspirators decided that they would gather outside the city the next day, and that whichever horse would be killed at sunrise as king.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

The brilliant Renki of Dareios, Oebares, came up with a plot to make Dareios king.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Oebares took the stallion used by Dareios as a steed to a designated place where he had also taken the horse's favourite tack.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

As morning dawned, Dareios's horse went down in a familiar spot.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

At the same time, lightning was also struck from the clear sky, after which others jumped off their horses to bow out of Dareio.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

[5] The six allies of Dareios were all appointed to high offices.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Otanee's daughter Faidymia had been married to both Smerd and Kambyses II, and now Otanes gave her as wife to Dareios.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios, in turn, gave one of his sisters to Otanee as a wife.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Babylonian Revolt Shortly after Dareios had seized power rose Babylonians in revolt.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Babylon had lost its independence only 17 years earlier, during Cyrus the Great.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Babylonia saw the internal Persian power struggle as a fitting opportunity to disenfranchise the Persians from power.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

[6] A certain Nidintu-Bel proclaimed himself king in Babylon and began to refer to himself as Nebukhadnezzar III, after Nebuchadnezzar II, the most illustrious king of Babylon.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Elam also soon rose in rebellion against the rule of the Persians, and an Assina declared himself king of Elam.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios immediately decided to attack Babylon.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

The Babylonians had gathered their forces on the banks of the Tigris, but Darios took his army across the river on rafts made of animal skins and defeated the Babylonians in battle.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

After this, he recaptured Babylon after a siege.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Nidintu-Bel was executed after he tried to flee Babylon.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

According to Herodotus, the siege of Babylon lasted twenty months and that the city was taken only thanks to a war plot.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

[7] According to the Behistun plotline inscription, the Babylonian revolt was the first of the rebellions that took place during the reign of Dareios.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

[8] Soon Elam also surrendered and Assina, who had been proclaimed king, was executed.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

The Persian revolt after the overthrow of Babylon was sparked by another rebellion.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

This time a certain Vahyazdata declared himself king in Persia.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

He may even have been more closely related to Cyrus the Great and his sons while Dareios himself was.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios's father, still a satrap of Parthia, supported his son, and so did the satraps of Bactria and Arakhosia.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Meedia also rebelled and a certain Fraortes declared himself king.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

However, Dareios had these rebellions defeated by the year 521 BCE.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

period.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Reich administration After defeating the rebelling provinces, Dareios reorganized their administration.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

The satrap system established during the time of Cyrus the Great experienced a reform when all provinces were more tightly connected to the control of the king.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

After Dareios's reforms, satraps had to pay tax on a predetermined amount.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios created 20 satrappies, among them: Persia, Elam, Babylonia and Assyria, Meedia, Ionia, Lydia, Cappadocia, Armenia, Phoenicia and Cyprus, Egypt, Gandara, Maka (now Oman), Drangiana, Arkhosia, Baktria, Parthia, Aria, Sogdia, and Arabia.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Herodotus lists the tribes and lands that paid Dareios a tax.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios also allowed the names of the provinces to be engraved into his own tomb.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Before the reforms of Dareios, taxes paid by the provinces had not been laid down in advance, but consisted of gifts to the king.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios ordered the provinces to pay tax annually in either gold or silver.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Some provinces also paid the tax in other ways, the Cilicians each year sending 360 white horses to the king, “one for every day of the year”.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

According to Herezus, the tax paid annually to the king was equivalent to 14560 talents of silver.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

[9] Dareios also allowed new gold and silver coins to be minted.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Previously, Lydian gold coins had been used mainly in Persia.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

[10] Under Dareios, a writing system for the Ancient Persian language was also developed on the basis of Babylonian and Elamite arrow editorials.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios used this inscription in all his monuments.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios also reformed the legislation.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Plato compares Dareios to the great legislators of Athens and Sparta, Solon and Lykurgos, in his dialogue with Faidros.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

[11] Construction work during the Dareios period began many major construction projects.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios allowed the construction of a new capital at Persepol.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

The largest building in Persepol was the large reception hall Apadana of Dareios with an area of 12000 m².


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios also allowed the rebuilding of Elam's old capital, Susa, and it became one of the four “capitals” of the Persian Empire.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Ekbatana, the old capital of Media, became the administrative town of Persian kings during the summers.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

The capital, Pasargadae, founded by Cyrus the Great, maintained its status as the religious capital of the Persian Empire.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios also allowed the Jews to build again the Jerusalem Temple, which was completed in 515 BCE.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

This is told in the Old Testament Book of Esra.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

[12] Dareios also allowed to dig a channel between the Nile and the Red Sea.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

The canal was completed around the year 498 BCE.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

and through it a ship link was obtained between Egypt and the Persian Gulf.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Persian soldiers in the relief of Apadana.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

A picture showing Persian soldiers from the palace of Dareios in Susa.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Sphinx at Susa Palace.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

From the Palace of Susa, a statue depicting a Persian soldier Bull from Apadana War expeditions Dareios expanded the Persian Empire during several different war expeditions.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

He invaded India probably in 515 BC, but there are no precise records of this war expedition.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Herodotus tells us that Dareios ordered the Greek Skylaks to explore the Indian Ocean by sailing west from the Indus.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Skylaks sailed from the Indus along the northern shore of the Indian Ocean to the Persian Gulf, from where he continued around Arabia to the Red Sea and Suez.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

War Expedition against the Scythians Around the year 513 BC.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios attacked the Scythians living in present-day Ukraine.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios carried his army across the Hellespontos and from there continued his journey to the Danube.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

His intention was to attack the Scythians who threatened Persia from the north.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

However, the plan was based on a false geographical perception.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

At the time, it was believed that the Danube River and the Jaksartes river flowing into Lake Aral were one and the same river.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Dareios therefore thought he was attacking the back of the Scythians who lived north of Persia.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

However, the Scythians did not want to enter into battle with Dareios's army, but retreated ahead of it.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

According to Herodotus, Dareios continued his journey all the way to the Volga, but was soon forced to return to the Danube.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Before returning to Persia, Dareios left Megabazos in Europe to control the conquered territories in Thrace.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Naksos War Expedition In 502, the inhabitants of the island of Naksos in the Aigeian Sea revolted against the Persians.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

The deposed powers of Naksos sought help from Aristagora, the tyrant of Miletos, who in turn turned to Artaferne, Dareios's brother.


Question: How did Dareios III rise to power?

Dareios

Artafernes sent a fleet led by Megabate to defeat the Naxosans.