Question: How many local government areas does France own?

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I remember coming across these UN guidelines through something when I happened to pay attention to article titles like En:Lake Nuijamaa, but I see that conversation took place somewhere other than that.


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Another one that has come across here is that Helyulyua and Lakhdenpokhya have already been mentioned by a user in these discussions, when from the Russian point of view of the wiki the relevant editors claim the names “Russians”, although I suppose the objective fact of historiallinre is that the Russians themselves too considers the names in question to be in Finnish.


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I guess in the Fi wiki we should go to the roots of our own naming convention.


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Further up, I compared the use of an atlas map of the entire globe as a nomenclature for small villages to using the same map as a guide to a dairy trade.


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I guess sometimes it was voted to be Lorraine and not Lothringen (and that's where the German language is already in the minority).


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It may be that we have some decision to use the language of the country, but we should just now dig it up and examine its rationale.


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That practice of mapbooks invoked here is, as far as I can see, not the one that determines the fate of little villages the size of a fly speck on such world maps.


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I would be more interested in seeing though the local GT map of the area. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 07:30 (EEST) As a Finn, I am used to seeing on maps that “Närpes, Närpiö”, “Lohja, Lojo”, so intuitive estri would expect that the situation would be the same elsewhere.


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If it is not, then it would be interesting to examine why not, on the one hand with regard to what has been agreed to be practice on our own wiki and other wikis, and on the other hand, for example, in a UN recommendation.


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In the de-wiki I remember being specific about this (while there again I paid attention to why the historical province was “Öaterbotten”, even though the inhabitants of the historical province (as opposed to the modern province) are majority Finnish-speaking. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 07:36am (EEST) I will add the beginning of the section “Nomenclature” on page 9 from this Atlas map: “In the map, the names are usually written in each country's own language.


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The exception is established Finnish conciliatory names.”


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The settlement names mention both the Omani and the conformist name.


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—Savir (debate) 9 August 2018 at 12:42pm (EEST) The name of the surrendered Karelia is therefore there in Atlas in Russian, because it is its own language, is it?


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 3:29pm (EEST) Both the Russian-language name and the Finnish-language amicable form (if they are different) have been mentioned on the settlement names in Karelia.


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—Savir (debate) 10 August 2018 at 3:35pm (EEST) But in English they are not either of these, at least in the opinion of the English Wikipedia.


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They are Ryaisyalyai and Khelyulyai.


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 3:40pm (EEST) I suppose you can say that the English Wikipedia, as I understand it, is clearly wrong (as can be prepared that any wikipedia can be at any time on any issue, regardless of good purpose).


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The historical fact is that the parts of the ceded territory belonging to the Republic of Karelia once introduced Finnish names for places, and therefore even the Russians themselves have never thought that the names were somehow “Russian-speaking” because they once are Finnish-speaking (after all, we have exclusive names here and there in Finland).


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The opinion is only relevant from the point of view of the Russian language en-wikipedists.


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From the point of view of the Finnish language and, I understand, also objective reality, they are simply wrong.


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If the Russian map depicts the territory of Finland, and it contains Säkylä Pyhäjärvi, Pyhäjärvi on the border between Finland and Russia, and even if (hypothetically) some third Pyhäjärvi entirely on the side of the Republic of Karelia (by some name you will probably find such a series of three names), and the Russians In the opinion of themselves, all three names are in Finnish, so it can't be anything but being wrong.


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User:wpk sometimes tried to fight this windmill on en-wiki, but with his method (=editing war and juupas eipäs argumentation) the attempt was doomed regardless of whether he was ultimately right or not. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 4:13pm (EEST) How is the side of the Republic of Karelia?


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Is Lahdenpohja or Lakhdenpokhya?


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(When it's delivered in Finland, I'd bet on the first one.)


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—Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 4:25pm (EEST) Generally speaking, where the other side of the debate is accused of bias, I would say for me that the author of Inker Villages, who has been very much in the voice, is yes then biased there in the direction of panslavism.


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 3:31pm (EEST) On the villages of Inker I have written primarily by I.


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Can you justify your pan-slavism accusation?


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 10 August 2018 at 5:55pm (EEST) And as far as scientifically concerned, the names are not really any languages: they are their own separate and omalacic aspect of the lexicology of all languages - some of the general rules of language lexics apply to them, some of them not at all.


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You can't really argue rationally that Stockholm is Swedish - or it is more scientifically accurate to state that the name Stockholm has names derived from the Swedish language.


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But Stockholm is Stockholm in a Swahili language context as well.


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 3:39pm (EEST) I now also have the Great World atlas published by the Map Centre for 2013.


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It too is “made entirely in Finland and designed specifically for the needs of the Finnish reader”.


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The explanation of Nomenclature is the same as in the map I mentioned above.


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To correct the opening post, that mention of the UN recommendations is for names that use the non-Latin writing system.


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I also took a look at the Language Office's Paris to Parrot Lodge book, and it says that the trend is generally that the denomination seeks to comply and exonyms are being abandoned, although this is not about them.


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I don't think there are any more recent and authoritative maps in Finland than this map centre atlas, so if the work is to be based on a source, maybe it is.


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—Savir (debate) 10 August 2018 at 3:45pm (EEST) Yes, there are efforts to abandon exonyms.


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How you can use it to justify abandoning the endonym in favour of the exonym, I do not understand.


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 16:00 (EEST) It has nothing to do with exonyms if there are more endonyms in one of the several languages.


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The question then arises as to which of these endonyms should be chosen by any other country and other languages.


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That's entirely different than having a map book or a list of Kotus' adaptive names to see if a foreign place should use someone's language name or a possible Finnish exonym.


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It is not an “exonym” either, if the Germans on their own maps write the Finns' unanimous wish to other countries that Närpes Närpiö and Lohja Lojo.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 4:20pm (EEST) You would be exactly right if we could consider English to be as original as Welsh or Gaelic in those regions.


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Kind of like an inverted version of the Österbotten situation you mentioned earlier: Exonyms with respect to eastern bottom became endonyms as the population of the region switched to speaking the language of exonyms.


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For centuries, the Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnia practically did not have a single Finnish-speaking person.


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Here the situation is the other way around: only endonyms have been used from the old places, but in the last few hundred years the same initially differently-language population has switched their language to the language of exonyms, making it seem as if the exonym is preferred.


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 4:40pm (EEST) Now you have to open that text is so concise that I can't stay on the cart. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 4:50pm (EEST) However, the general principle should be found here.


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As we now have two fennists in this EDIT: Fennougrist (User:Iivarius and User:Jani Koski, with the professionalism of Fennist (or even Slavist) you would probably have to find an external source other than your own research, be it the UN or whatever.


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When you searched the link above, it turned out “Bardsey Island [Ynys Enlli]” and a map was opened that said “Ynys Enlli/Bardsey Island” (that is, just as we say in maps Närpiö Närpes and Lohja Lojo and other wikis are titled in the article e.g. Närpes or Lohja.


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That Fennist's professionalism would now be needed to dig up whether that map of the link is any official source that we, as a neutral, reliable source, could follow. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 4:49pm (EEST) I understand that neither of these “fennists” has completed a master's degree with a target period of five years.


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Correct me if I'm wrong.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 10 August 2018 at 5:58pm (EEST) I started studies in 2006, I have not finished yet.


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With just over three hundred credits completed, there will be someone 20 more this winter.


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Eng. yo.


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still, therefore, and I think I will be for the rest of life.


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Neither of us and Jan are fennists, fennist when you're a special case of fennougrist.


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Neither of us has claimed to have a master's.


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 6:07pm (EEST) Well, again I messed up the terms.


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As long as now some uralistic either way. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 6:22pm (EEST) When I am not a Fennist (nor a Slavist) but have completed my own master's degree in another faculty, I cannot say whether ao requires.


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using appointments from some individuals that they would have earned a master's degree.


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Maybe someone here does.


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I could very well imagine that students could well characterize each other and themselves e.g. as “business scientists” or “agricultural-forestry scientists” without the designation meaning that you have completed a degree.


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Or, perhaps, somewhere in a workplace where there are people from different fields, no matter which of them have earned a master's degree, bachelor's degree or are still matriculating, if you want to keep a chapter on what field of education each represents. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 6:43pm (EEST) (However, today many people start to refer to themselves as “academics” as soon as they have been accepted into the university, but I meant generally correctly used appointments, and not those used because of ignorance and misused.)


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—Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 6:47pm (EEST) And if it is now from the qualifications, I have an old licentiate degree, which was not at all easy for the Finnish language exam, even though it is my mother tongue.


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Though I'm not an academic linguist, except for those languages in their mouths.


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And in my profession I have had to understand quite a few spoken languages creatively applying.


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I don't want to mess with this lightening.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:35am (EEST) If you have to find some sort of general principle, then I would, at least for municipalities in Wales, look on the official website of the municipality to see if there is a logo, etc., that would have both sides. names.


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One could then choose here primarily for use whichever one in this logo appears on either the left or the upper row.


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This would probably best reflect what the locality's inhabitants themselves consider their primary place name.


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This principle would also be very similar to the principle mentioned in this debate that, with the exception of Vikipedia in Finnish, vikipedias in other languages use the Swedish name of the Finnish-Swedish municipalities specifically because it is the own wish of these municipalities.


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In this case of Ynys Enlli, the site of the foundation that cares for the island can be considered as the most official site.


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The Foundation's website can be found both at www.enlli.org and www.bardsey.org Both addresses lead to the same bilingual site, whose landing page in the top left corner has its name Ymddiriedolaeth Ynys Enlli/Bardsey Island Trust written in the logo of the trust caring for the island such that the proportion in the Welsh-language is on the left and upper lines relative to the English section.


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In addition, the landing page title Croeso i Ynys Enlli/Welcome to Bardsey Island is on the same principle, with the Welsh section being on the upper line than the English one.


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The same order of languages exists in all other texts found on the lower landing page.


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In the case of Wales, this might be a good practice, but you have to take into account that there are a wide range of countries in the world and the same principle cannot be applied blindly to place names in all countries.


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In the case of Russia, for example, it is pretty clear that because of the oppression of linguistic minorities there, it is not possible to put the local language as the first language on the official website of the municipality, even if almost 100% of the inhabitants are indigenous speakers of the region.


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Yet in such cases, I think it should be possible to use a local name as a primary name in non-Russian vikipedias.


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I don't know for sure, and I don't have time to try to find out at the moment, but it is very possible that the Öjmököön uluus mentioned earlier in that debate will have the Yakuts in the majority locally.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:04 (EEST)) How would you see that in this discussion User:Savir linked to some UN page, where some OSM-based map from the UK showed the name of the island mentioned in the opening comment in Welsh first?


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In Finland, the corresponding position is probably the map place and Kotus publications.


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Wikipedia usually seeks to obtain one such compiled database, e.g. the existence of Finnish local Finnish place names is the source of a database called eki.ee.


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In the names of people from the minority peoples of Russia, we have sometimes ended up with obscure names in history, but in place names again in Russian, excluding Finnish place names because the language of our own wiki is Finnish.


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That is, if you ended up using minority-language place names on the fi wik', then some compiled source like that would perhaps come into question in that case. —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:03pm (EEST) Ynys Enlli/Bardsey Island was indeed shown in that UN map linked by Savir in this order, but on the other hand the same map contains the names of some other localities in such a way that the English name is first, even if it is even a region or locality with more than 50% Welsh speakers (although too straightforward application of this 50% limit would be problematic to me as I said earlier).


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I am disturbed in almost every map by their internal inconsistency in such matters and the fact that no map users are properly told in detail the naming principles that would explain such contradictions.


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For that reason, too, I think it would be better to find a principle that would allow transparency for each individual locality, that is, for each individual name, one could know why the name that has been chosen has been chosen.


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Compiled databases may not answer this question, and there are many databases and map books, so which one would even choose.


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Still, I think the best way is to appeal as directly as possible to the order in which the municipality itself writes its name.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:23pm (EEST)) Actually, that depends on how things are organised in each country.


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If a database, map data, or map book is devoid of internal consistency or non-transparent in configuration principles, then it may be difficult or impossible to rationally use it as a comprehensive or general source.


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If it is high-quality and transparent and comprehensive, it can be used.


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Thus I can argue that there are e.g. Finland and Norway for Finnish, Swedish- Norwegian and Sámi place names.


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Databases and maps produced by Finnish and Norwegian authorities and research institutes make it possible to fully designate articles.


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(But when wiki's own language is as one of the languages, then of course the prioritization goes differently.)


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An example of a bad database (American Geonames) was seen when articles were created on sv and ceb wikis with bots, and the result was, for example, a hill called Vehmassalmi, an island called Ryssugnar () and the sands of Kalajoki in the category Finnish sand deserts and boulders in category cliffs (cf.


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en: “rock”). —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 6:22pm (EEST) “Proprie's position in both language use and lexicology is largely different from that of appellative vocabulary.


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Proprie do not necessarily have to be the same language that is otherwise used and can be successfully identified and used without understanding their form and meaning more deeply.


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Propres do not necessarily need- it even be considered to have meaning in the usual sense of the word. “


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states Kaisa Häkkinen, and the interlinguistic language is spoken by Janne Saarikivi, among others.


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Iivarius (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:00 (EEST) Whaddodo This is a difficult question and it is not worth saving time in solving it (if that is somehow logically unclear, then I mean it is worth taking the time).


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This has been discussed with the Uluuses, for example.


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I don't think this will survive without an opinion poll and a vote unless one has already been done.


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If we have already accustomed, for example, to the name Oimjakon before it starts with Ö, then we can understand it.


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And I will inform you at the outset that I am one of the most strident opponents of English domination who can be found on the Finnish Wikipedia.


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It is because the language - according to the familiar English teacher - is learned, and secondly because it also comes with rapatronic attitudes.


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Of course, the same criticism should be taken against other colonial languages such as French, Spanish, Russian, Portuguese, Dutch and probably German.


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And it's not as simple as this either.


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Esamatti rarely errs in his estimates, but I recommend reflecting.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:19 (EEST) Only falls flimsy here, but it was the last egg to change Grosia's name to Georgia.


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Our good neighbour and Grosia's supreme friend in the EU, namely Estonia, continues to use the name Grosia.


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What stumble did we have when our neutrality was called Finnishness?


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:24am (EEST) to the matter.


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As languages die, a lot goes from humane culture.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:30am (EEST) This, in my opinion, is not a voting issue, but a matter of nomenclature source and nomenclature source work.


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Once I already used these lingivists with or without a cantuate to prepare.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:48am (EEST) It took a moment to understand that long word, but you weren't supposed to be Savonian.


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With all due respect to them too.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:06am (EEST) Now there is a little bit next to the subject, but Urjanhai has to refer to it in order to make his sense of being a defender of the use of the dialect and for the sake of writing a “cantituatinologist” in North-Karelia itäsavolaisela murttiila.


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(Jani Koskki (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:31am (EEST)) I linked it somewhere further up in this discussion when first someone else had linked the facebook page, where I noticed that I had linked myself earlier.


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thesis article on Savonian dialects.


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As a layman who dabbles in dialects and languages, I just keep borrowing idioms from different dialects and languages.


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Growing up in a monolingual but multi-dialect environment, I have grown accustomed to this since I was a child, but literary pursuits and different places of residence have since expanded the spectrum. —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:44am (EEST) The question is not difficult but easy, as the current policies of Wikipedia already give an answer.


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First, “information in articles should be based on reliable third-party published sources” and “Wikipedia should lean on generally accepted literature published by scholars or scholars wherever possible”.


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Secondly, “the name of the article must be the one used to refer to the subject in the common Finnish language.”


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And in the common language of Finnish, foreign localities do use the names used in Finnish maps, whatever else.


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Neither in this debate nor in any vote, the basic tenets of Wikipedia can be refuted.


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This is just about what explicit atlas or recommendation we use in naming articles like this.


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I will, in a few days, name the articles on the basis of this discussion and the best-proven source literature, and at the same time source the names.


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—Savir (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:54 (EEST) Savir, that was a great summary.


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We don't need to know the characteristics of all indigenous languages.


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Instead, it is good to have the indigenous version or versions mentioned.


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In addition, can make control pages as needed.


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I wonder if there's a consensus here.


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Although there are a lot of things you can't find.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 Aug 2018 at 01:06am (EEST) Yep.


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We believe that we should avoid having to value language policy solutions in a country as discriminatory or non-discriminatory, or whatever the case may be.


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In my opinion, the discussion did not dwell on the point of view that it is not relevant to the Finnish-speaking reader why the inhabitants of place X call it themselves, or what the inhabitants of place Y call it X, but what the speakers of Finnish call it.


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And when factually the situation is that proprits in Finnish can be borrowed through a larger language, making them more familiar to us, even if this form is not used in the place.


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In such matters, we should not take any active role, according to the principles of Wikipedia, but look by and see what the situation is.


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Otherwise you have to take sides on issues that probably nest nationalist motives and threatened egos.


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Although nowadays it is fashionable to consider exonyms satanic, I think this view is unnecessarily monotonous if you think about it through the fact that the language is the property of its users and made for the needs of its speakers, not some third party.


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I don't think it is reasonable to demand from a moral standpoint that language speakers should be interested in adopting a name for general use with phonologies that are completely foreign to the phonology of their own language or that is otherwise inconvenient.


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And there could be several endonyms.


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If one Finn moves to a place in the world, does it become a moral right to give that place a Finnish name, but otherwise not?


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—Louhkärmes (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:42am (EEST) I don't really know but that apparently everyone thinks English now but is so cute and neutral that everything that English speakers do is always good and beautiful, and English-speaking can never to be evil where it can be.


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Practicality is coherent law and pragmatism is that the state does not tax.


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That if it really is the case that moving a Finn to a place doesn't justify giving a Finnish name, how the hell does the English and Yanks move into places give you the right to rename all the winks.


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Iivarius (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:51am (EEST) Let us add that, of course, no one thinks Wikipedia should take an active role, so we can also return to the fact that there are two human genders, conservative and uncle, and thirteen colonies are rebellious and fall under the crown.


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Iivarius (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:51am (EEST) For Iivarius, talking past the issue seems to be some kind of influence strategy.


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Apparently, in this case it is necessary to resort to the suggestion of the user Savir, although traditionally atlases are full of errors.


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Basically, localities are named according to the official language of the country, regardless of what the sign on the road cheek says there.


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Many countries such as Russia have an official register of inhabited places.


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There is also a law in Russia that local official languages are always secondary.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 10:55am (EEST) I support Savir's proposal when no better has come, certainly not understandable.


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—Otrfan (debate) 11 August 2018 at 10:58am (EEST) So when we in Finland have decided to choose two official languages for ourselves, but some other countries do not (even if there are as many or more speakers of other languages than us), then let's go with this “officiality” according to politics?


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But where is this “officiality” now, for example, defined for the UK, and by whom or what entity has defined it?


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And where is it defined that we go according to the “official language” and if we go, where is the defined one?


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What here is the source of this “officiality” now though in the UK, and what source globally defines what constitutes an “official language”?


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—Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:11am (EEST) I am not an expert, as you can easily see, but the adoption of Swedish as the official language of Finland was political realism.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:10pm (EEST) So this was not a rhetorical question but a matter of fact, when now e.g. As for Russia, you knew how to answer it from the pharmacy shelf.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:15am (EEST) I understand that there is no actual 'official' language in Britain (unless 'Queen's language' is considered as such), but there is no doubt that the language of the country is English.


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In addition, there are officially recognized minority</b>languages.


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The official status of Welsh in Wales does not mean that even the main language isn't English (or because of that, the law on the Welsh language is actually enacted).


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—Esamatti1 (discussion) 11 August 2018 at 11:26am (EEST) And as an overlapping edit with your answer the second question, when User:Savir above gave that UN link, which was the OSM map that gave the first Welsh name on the map, so what is the position of this source compared to some random Finnish universal map book of the whole world, where I guess the entire Welsh speaking area is described as something the size of a palm? —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:29am (EEST) And there is no need to go fishing across the Irish Sea: Irish is still Ireland's national language and first official language, but Irish cities are named after English in the Finnish language Wikipedia.


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The issue doesn't seem to interest language activists because of the difficulty of making the Irish language a policy.


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Or should localities in Northern Ireland be named Irish, so would there be a row over that too?


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:41am (EEST) I suppose the important thing would be to have the principles written and followed open to ensure their neutrality, based on independent reliable sources, etc. —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:48am (EEST) I think it is important, but all the more problematic when we live through the political world.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:10pm (EEST) Welsh has two official languages: Welsh and English.


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There is no doubt that Finnish is the main language of Finland, but still other versions of Vikipedia use primarily the Swedish name of several localities in the Finnish Swedish region, and according to someone in this discussion, this is because these municipalities are themselves wished that they would be referred to in other language contexts primarily by a Swedish name.


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Very close to this principle would be what I suggested above, to see on the official website of a municipality in Wales what language name appears first (i.e. in the upper row or written on the left side) in the municipal logo, etc. (Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:06pm (EEST)) From the discussion above, I interpreted (and I would understand) that naming articles on Finnish localities in either language does not circulate to other wikis ao.


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through municipalities, but through the recommendations drawn up jointly by the Finnish and Swedish researchers of Kotus and the lists of names included in them, where I guess the starting point is that (a) the primacy of the municipality's name in Finnish or Swedish (if there is a name in either language) is decided by the municipality's name in Finnish or Swedish (if there is a name in either language) the basis of language relations, which is again provided for by law, that is, the majority language determines and the number of speakers of the language is obtained from official records.


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Smaller places will then go according to this, if the places have names in either language, and that the name exists in either language and what is the exact form of the name, while it is clear from the lists of place names and databases (where they are also exported to the map location online).


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Such compiled sources might imagine that there are equally in Britain, for example, road map makers. —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:29pm (EEST) It does not seem very coherent if in some cases we go by the language of the region/place and in some other cases again by the official language of the region/place (primary).


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If now, in the case of Ireland, it would be neutral to appoint places in English against the country's own language policy, since in most places the language language is English, then why is this principle that if there are several official names, then the language of the inhabitants of the place is determined not to be universally valid?


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What if it doesn't qualify, then why wouldn't the primary official language of the region/place be a neutral option?


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Ujanairi (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:08pm (EEST) The Dublin webpage gives the Irish format first, as does Cork.


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By the way, the sites are in English.


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Also in Wales, the status of Welsh is mainly symbolic and the real power language is English.


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For Finnish, the meaning of the Welsh language is marginal.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:27am (EEST) I did find an Irish version of the site on the Irish capital site: As such, it is a good question whether or not Irish localities could, or should, be used primarily in Irish names. in some cases - in Ireland, too, there are areas where more than 50% of the inhabitants are Irish speaking and where, in fact, signs are even monolingual in Irish.


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On the other hand, large localities such as the capital of a state are a little different because they have been practically already known to Finland by a certain name, in which case it can be difficult to change the practice.


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But it is quite different to talk about localities the size of “fly shitter” from Finland, for which there is no established name practice in Finnish, since almost no Finnish has ever heard the name of that locality in any language in his life.


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In Wales, the vibrancy of Welsh is, by the way, stronger than Irish in Ireland and, as noted, is very regionally distributed, i.e. there are large areas in Wales where the vast majority of the population uses Welsh as their main everyday language (home language, school language, working language...) and in which public administration, for example, the main working and administrative language of a municipality or county is Welsh.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 12:38pm (EEST)) Irish is therefore more endangered than Welsh, but it is of no interest to language activists because it cannot make policy.


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Moreover, as far as I know, the Irish-speaking region of Ireland is officially monolingual, which its inhabitants are not at all happy about.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:51pm (EEST) What does this inaccurate claim that the Irish situation is of no interest to language activists relate to?


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What if it were true, in what way would it be relevant to this discussion?


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By the way, I don't see how your reactions answer my question.


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Ujanairi (discussion) 11 August 2018 at 1:10pm (EEST) I fix: not interested enough to start an editing war on the Finnish Wikipedia.


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The world is full of linguistic minorities, and if one place gives in to the slingers, it is about to start belting on all fronts.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 1:19pm (EEST) Now only vague accusations and insults came, and I still have not received a constructive response.


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Could we steer the debate in a more serious direction again and discuss rational principles that allow you to conclude what language name is most appropriate?


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Ujanairi (debate) 11 August 2018 at 1:50pm (EEST) Articles on geographical sites will be named in the country's official national language unless there is a Finnish designation.


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There's no more to discuss here.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 1:55pm (EEST) After all, no foreign language is, in principle, more marginal than another language for Finns, unless it is specifically aimed at marginalising it for ideological reasons.


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Or marginality is context-specific, and some language cannot be thought of as marginal, at least in the context of speaking of a locality where that language is an indigenous language and the main language of the local community today.


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The problem with these debates is that people who do not know Welsh or know anything about the Welsh language situation - whether they have ever been to Wales, or at least not in the most Welsh speaking areas - come to say that Welsh is not really spoken anywhere, but it is just” symbolic” language.


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And if anyone believes that for themselves, there is no fact translating such a person's head, such as the fact that in Gwynedd, well over half of the inhabitants speak Welsh, with Welsh as the language of instruction in every school and Welsh as the primary working language of local government.


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Also well illustrates the level of this debate that linguists (or students in the field) who defend the visibility of local languages are called “hihhules” and that in relation to this field, lay people (let us correct, for example, Esamatti1 if he has any education related to the field) come to tell you exactly for linguists specialising in language policy, social status of languages and power relations between languages in their own studies and/or research, which is the “official language of the country”.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:17pm (EEST)) Wikipedia is not a community of experts.


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Here others are licentiates and others have, five years ago, finished their bachelor's thesis, but that makes no difference.


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The main language of Britain and Wales is English.


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The meaning and usage value of the Welsh language is very low for the average user of Wikipedia in Finnish.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:34pm (EEST) Whether there is a community of experts or not, I would at least not go to argue against a matter which I know someone has more detailed knowledge and a deeper understanding than myself, let alone begin to appoint debaters commenting on questions in their field of speciality as “hihhules”.


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As a modifier of vikipedia, I have focused on writing mainly on issues on which I have more than average Finnish knowledge, mainly minority languages, areas where a minority language is spoken and people who are in the area of speaking a minority language socially or culturally significant and well-known persons.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:48pm (EEST)) When you talk about minority languages, could you at least try to write Wikipedia correctly so that Hawaiian speakers are not offended.


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—Otrfan (debate) August 11, 2018 at 2:53pm (EEST) I think that “vikipedia” is some sort of ideological “value"choice.


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I'm not a fan of double vein either, but I suppose there is some recommendation or community consensus on the issue, and I submit to it.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:59pm (EEST) In the conversation, everyone can write as they wish in their own comments.


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I find it interesting that in many versions of vikipedia the spelling of the word “wikipedia” has been adapted to the sound or writing system of the language in question, and that is why I myself use the Finnish spelling vikipedia in this kind of free-form discussion.


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In principle, it would be possible to make it the official name of vikipedia in Finnish, but I have no interest in sacrificing my time in promoting this issue, although personally I am very fond of this spelling.


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I would hope to keep up on topic, rather than argue beside the point.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 3:12pm (EEST)) There is no need for discussion if the State has only one official language and this language is also the main language of the region.


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However, the issue is apparently not that easy anywhere in the world, so yes there would still be debate.


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E.g. The main language of Switzerland is undoubtedly (Swiss) German, but the French and Italian language versions of the French and Italian languages are nevertheless used in the Finnish Wikipedia, since these languages are also the official languages of Switzerland and, moreover, the main languages of the regions concerned, even though German has official status in it and the canton is home to a sizeable German-speaking minority, doesn't it?


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On the other hand, the names of the country's actual national language (Swiss German) are unlikely to appear in the Finnish Wikipedia of Missi, as it does not have official status.


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On the other hand, I don't think Irish and Welsh names are even valid in areas where those languages are the main languages of the local community.


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So do you currently have any principles other than that the author chooses the name according to his own liking without thinking about consistency?


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Ujanairi (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:36pm (EEST) Switzerland is a federal state with each canton having its own official languages.


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The Irish-speaking regions of Ireland are, I understand, officially monolingual.


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Wales is an autonomous region whose laws are passed by the British Parliament.


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The country's main language is English, and Welsh has officially recognised status alongside it.


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What's so hard to get confused about this?


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:47pm (EEST) Wales has extensive self-government and its own legislative body, which e.g.


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enact all laws regarding language.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:50pm (EEST)) That is, the main language is used because the language is used.


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But on what basis and according to what practice? —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 2:58pm (EEST) And what or who at any time defines which language is the “power language”?


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Independent external source, like or scream vote, or does the fact that the proxy language happens to be language a or language b?


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And if an independent external source, then what?


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A map book in Finnish has been presented, are there any others? —Urjanhai (discussion) 11 August 2018 at 3:09pm (EEST) Based on consistency, usability and the needs of the Finnish-speaking user.


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To avoid future editing wars over, say, New Zealand's Māori language names.


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Nomination sources are used and, if necessary, resort to map books.


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—Esamatti1 (discussion) 11 August 2018 at 3:13pm (EEST) “The needs of the Finnish-speaking user” are in no way objectively measurable.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 3:17pm (EEST)) I am regrettably Finnish (I speak Finnish 100 times more fluently than any of the six languages I say I speak in a general context, not to mention writing) and my need is just different from yours, Dear Esamatti1.Iivarius (debate) 11 August 2018 at 18:06pm (EEST) The name order of the logo found on the municipality's own website would be independent of the source and as close as possible to the people's own position.


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After all, they have their own representatives voted into the local council and the local council ultimately decides what the municipal logo looks like.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 3:17pm (EEST)) I personally would support a source at the highest level of organisation possible.


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In Finland, the official language of the municipality is not even decided by the municipal council, but by law and the ratio of the population.


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Only if the municipality wants to be bilingual voluntarily, if it does not have to, it is allowed to make that choice, but even then the list of municipalities' linguistics is at a higher level, and the majority language is determined by population ratios anyway.


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In some other country it may be otherwise, and I'm not familiar with e.g. The situation in Wales, but even if, for example, the municipalities themselves have the power to decide, in all cases, it would be surprising if we did not have a person responsible for keeping records of them.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 3:25pm (EEST) Well, if we take the highest possible organisational position on this issue, then we will come to an interesting result which, of course, would not hinder me in any way, but on the contrary: the National Assembly for Wales, i.e. the whole of Wales a self-governing body granted power by the British Parliament to decide e.g.


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on the whole language policy in Wales, has passed a law in 2016 requiring that in all road signs Welsh names are placed first: “Where a sign contains the Welsh language as well as the English language, the Welsh language text must be positioned so as to be read first.”


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(If anyone has since visited Wales and seen signs where the language order is different, this is because of course not all signs have been introduced in such a small period of time.)


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Welsh language policy could be characterised as such that laws enacted by the National Assembly for Wales give certain minimum standards for the kind of language policy to be conducted at lower levels of government, but on matters of which the National Assembly is not unequivocal the law drafted, decided at the county or municipal level.


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At county level, I believe, it is decided, for example, on the language policy of schools, i.e. how much and in which localities there are Welsh or English schools in a given county.


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All counties are obliged to use both Welsh and English in their public communications, but they can decide for themselves what is the internal working language and the language of internal communication (i.e. in which the decisions and opinions of the county administration are prepared and in which language the results of the work will eventually just be translated).


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Indeed, a few in the county council have taken a decision by voting to use Welsh as a working language within the administration.


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As for municipalities, they are, of course, again subject to the minimum standards for language policy set by the National Assembly for Wales and, at the same time, their own county, but otherwise they have free rein to decide, for example, what constitutes an internal working language in local government.


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In summary, you could therefore say that in Wales there are no single and bilingual municipalities in the same sense as in Finland, so that one could make a centralised list of municipalities indicating which municipality is in which language.


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For certain matters Welsh is compulsory under the laws of the National Assembly to be used throughout Wales, while some matters are decided at lower levels of government.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 5:07pm (EEST)) Wikipedia article names are not decided on the basis of street signs or online logos.


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I think it's about time we stopped worrying about it.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 5:13pm (EEST) That was something to be expected because I suppose in most countries the language policy arrangements are their own.


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Generally, nomenclature sources, which can be used as sources in Wikipedia, are produced by the authorities and research institutes responsible for nomenclature management in each country and are diverted to more general use.


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- Eg, bring someone previously linked map.


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Or how eg names are on local highway general maps, gt maps, etc?


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Here again, then, the aspiration would be to upper-level independent, reliable and comprehensive sources.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 5:53pm (EEST) But do not the maps mainly reflect the language policy pursued, that is, would it not be more straightforward to justify the practice with a language policy than a map?


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But if you have to find a map now, how about this: The direct link to the map is here: The map will be more readable if the lowest tick (predictive agricultural land classification) is not selected in the menu displayed on the left.


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This is therefore a map produced by the Welsh Autonomous Body, which describes land uses, etc.


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Other maps produced by the Welsh Government I failed to quickly guugling to find.


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The map app can be used in English and Danish languages.


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The links I provided are to the English version, and you can change the language version from the top right button by selecting “Cymraeg” or “English” in the Welsh version.


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Noteworthy, however, that when using the map app in English, all place names with different names in Welsh and English appear on the map so that the Welsh place name predates the English language.


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This applies to the whole of Wales.


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So if it is official policy in Wales (judging from this map) that even the English readership is presented with maps that give Welsh names before English speakers, then I can't really think of a reason why we should do differently with a Finnish readership .


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) on 12 August 2018 at 11:10am (EEST)) The problem may be that e.g. Language policy in Finland and Norway, together with other infrastructure and research policies, produces maps that are reliable and transparent, secure nomenclature sources and deal with different languages equally and neutrally.


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It is possible that in all countries this is not the case.


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What is the situation e.g. In Wales, I can't say.


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Both Finland and Norway, for example, have online watercourse maps, but they show nomenclature in both Finnish and, for example, Sámi, nomenclature, which can be seen as eros compared to nomenclature data based on nomenclature, e.g. national surveying institutions in map services ().


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(I don't know Sámi, but you can tell if you compare different services, and when you compare Finnish services with Finnish, you can see the same.)


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The most terrible kura is some American geonames I already referred to (a hill called Ryssänovens Ryssughar).


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In any case, that language policy itself is probably written somewhere (or not, I can't say, in Finland it is).


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On the other hand, I suppose the real issue here is this 1) the use of Finnish map books as a source of nomenclature (yes or no, and in what cases) and 2) “the use of the “kingdom language” of each country as serving “Finnish readers”.


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In Finnish, I suppose we have some of the world map books translated from the international atlas, where e.g. Wales is typically something the size of one or two palms or that class at the maximum.


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Then the question may arise that if one object happens to appear on such a map and another object does not, then whether we should stick to some random Finnish world map book, if, for example, in more detailed maps that are not printed in Finnish as books, the names missing from these books and perhaps a large number of other names are the other way around.


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(And in addition, tests can be done on those translated maps: If they say something like Lakhdenpokhya or Ryssughar, then it is quite clear that the source cannot be of high quality.)


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Or, on the other hand, is the purpose of some random map book translated into multiple languages the same as Wikipedia as an encyclopedia?


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You can actually evaluate it by studying these map books.


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That is, when we have e.g. Nomenclature source databases such as that eki.ee are used in the surrounding regions of Finland, so if accurate, we would be forced to use elsewhere if we want to follow the principles of wikipedia.


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That is, therefore, look for reliable and independent external sources.


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Somewhere, besides the names and languages of the opposite, can be a contentious political issue.


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What are we supposed to do then?


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In this case, it may be necessary to look at, for example, what national organisations such as the UN have recommended the use of names.


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And again, accordingly, to look for these sources of nomenclature and evaluate them.


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Nomenclature sources are decided on wikipedia communally: Wikipedia:Nomenclature sources.


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And then as another question, this “proxy language” or “official language”.


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If such a concept is a criterion, then there must also be a reliable, independent and neutral source for the criterion concept.


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And likewise, the alignment based on the criterion should be in line with the general principles of wikipedia - such as Wikipedia:Checkability, Wikipedia:Neutrality, and on the other hand it should correspond to the same alignments outside wikipedia, for which there are often also independent and reliable sources.


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It is quite obvious that arguments exist in favour of the fact that when, for example, much information and information in the world passes through major languages such as Enlanti, German, French, Spanish, Russian, etc., there is some clarity about the use of the names used by speakers of these languages will.


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But then these principles should also be expressed and written open transparently and clearly.


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That is, what is the “official language” and what is the “language of power” (if it is up to it), and what does, for example, the de-wiki e.g. now the Welsh name that has been the starting point of this debate is in the form it is, although at the same time de wiki has Närpes and Lohja.


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That is, whether the procedure is based on a conscious reasoned choice, or simply because the whole issue of that part of the world has not happened to be addressed.


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In EN-wiki, I do a lot of work on issues like this, but in this case when the other language is the wiki's own language and the whole issue is therefore not up to date, the solution must be sought elsewhere, i.e.


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where has been concluded and on what basis in the en-wiki in cases where the other language is not English, or where has been concluded in these British Isles cases in Wikis whose language is not English.


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So far, that chart-book argument has gained support, but there may be other arguments.


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When different Wikipedias (predictably I guess others you've edited yourself) have different positions taken on this, then this about at least roughly suggests that there may be different positions.


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But, of course, only insofar as the issue has been considered and the result of the reflection is justified.


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That is, since wikipedia is not a source, the only thing that is interesting then is what are the arguments by which each wikipedia's positions may have been substantiated.


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On the other hand, many times again what outcome has been reached seems to vary randomly.


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If you want to change this kind of thing, you can be prepared to do major preparatory work through the Wikipedia principles.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 12 August 2018 at 1:07pm (EEST) There are a lot of cases where border drawing can be difficult if, for example, the region has already “originally” been multilingual or if the change of the main language in the region has occurred a long time ago, but I still think there are cases where the use of a minority language should be clear as day, at least if ALL of the following conditions are met: 1) In the locality or region.


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the language is clearly more original with respect to the state's proxy language.


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2) Even today, more than 50% of the inhabitants of the locality or region speak ko.


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language according to a reliable source.


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3) It is the practice of a locality, a region or even an autonomous community as a whole to use it.


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linguistic names as primary names in those contexts in which both names occur in parallel.


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Could it be taken as a principle that local names could be used as primary names at LEAST for those place names for which all these conditions are met?


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One could then discuss how to do if only some of these conditions are met and hone the details.


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(Jani Koskiin (discussion) 12 August 2018, 1:55pm (EEST)) Yes, not good.


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It is pointless to discuss with such people, the same enmity will continue for eternity.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 12 August 2018 at 3:25pm (EEST) Just asking: has anyone ever noticed that Esamatti1 would admit to being wrong?


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No, of course not.


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His actions make me understand Leonid Markelov at times.


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Iivarius (debate) 12 August 2018 at 4:54pm (EEST) The point here is that we need to find general sources and justify the choice of this general source using Wikipedia principles such as WP:reviewability, WP:neutrality, WP:no new research, etc.


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Calculations of the percentages of language users and the impact of this on matters and recommendations or regulations on this basis may well have been done by some authorities somewhere ao.


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in the country or may be, for example, general recommendations of international organisations or international agreements, etc. These recommendations and regulations of the authorities of each country or, for example, international agreements can then be communicated neutrally, and when e.g. The Finnish authorities have made their own policies, so at least de-wiki nicely names their articles on the places in Finland after them.


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There can then be a debate as to which general source we should go with, that our action on the matter should be based on the principles of Wikipedia (at least those above, perhaps others).


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compliant.


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That is, for example, is some random atlas of the world translated into Finnish just in this matter a sufficiently high quality and reliable source?


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It may or may not be.


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It needs to be investigated and, against the principles of Wikipedia, clarified.


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Sometimes e.g. Wikipedia had information that Köyliönjärvi counts Kokemäenjoki and a map of this kind as the source.


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Then the source was not of sufficient quality in that very matter and the choice of source was not justified.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 12 August 2018 at 4:35pm (EEST) I will now clarify: I suppose sometimes there were some apparently diligent and well-deserved modifiers who had the agenda to change all the place names of Finland and neighbouring regions to Finnish, even when there were no changes reliable source or source in the first place, and the source may have been provided even with suomi24.fi discussions.


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When this has been a while, I can no longer remember whether it followed or whether it happened, regardless of this, that the database eki.ee in the neighbouring regions of Finland and Kotus publications in Finland was taken as the source of the name, or whether these had already been established independently of this.


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But then when there was a clear source then it was clear and chattering away.


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That is, clarity is thus obtained by engaging with arguments based on wikipedia principles, the debate breeding, which reliable, high-quality, independent and neutral source in whatever matter is chosen for adherence to. —Urjanhai (debate) 12 August 2018 at 5:06pm (EEST) The “language activist” in question was therefore User:Inzulac and his alterego, who might be described only as “diligent”.


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Similar problems here are tried to avoid.


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A couple of examples of Kittean “language activism”:,.


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Is this what we want on Wikipedia?


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 12 August 2018 at 5:16pm (EEST) When the most active period was apparently even before I started editing myself, and especially since those alter egos for the same reason do not find out, my understanding is really not very accurate, especially with regard to those elder phases .


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—Urjanhai (debate) 12 August 2018 at 5:34pm (EEST) I hope Esamati's time will pass hard while he researches my background from another site.


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I can justify in another context why the local (kin) form of place names in Finland could be presented on road signs and why there really would be nothing miraculous if we compare with developments that have occurred in many other regions of Europe in recent times in decades.


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In this context, however, I will not comment on the matter, as this is now primarily about languages, 1) which have as well established a writing system and language maintenance as Finnish or English, 2) which already have official status in their own speaking area, and 3) which are owned by local governments language policy even in many cases favors relative to the conqueror language.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 13 August 2018 at 5:04pm (EEST)) I, too, have spoken very much about the regulations and practices of each country's own authorities here, at least as far as Wales is concerned.


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All possible regulations made by Welsh authorities and administration on inter-language order support the primacy of Welsh: using Welsh names on road signs as priority throughout Wales, using Welsh names as priorities for Welsh Government in the map produced and using Welsh names primarily for municipalities, etc.


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the administrative departments on their own websites.


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These are the only facts that can be pointed to, as far as the language policies of the country's own authorities are concerned.


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It should be sufficient to take as a principle the country's own language policy, at least in countries where minority languages have genuine opportunities to promote their cause through politics at all.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 13 August 2018 at 4:09pm (EEST)) “The Conqueror Language” also tells quite a lot about your ideology.


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I have made my argument, and I accept Savir's solution.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 13 August 2018 at 6:31pm (EEST) I have now transferred almost all the articles on the locality of Wales and Scotland to the names of the Map Centre I mentioned here, insofar as they are mentioned.


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Some of them were already under the right name.


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I also added a source reference to the articles I transferred to make them better safe from now on.


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Other Finnish atlases I've browsed seem to have these same names, but I haven't gone through all of them.


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There are also those in Geographica that this map of the Map Center does not have.


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Also, there would be plenty of opportunities to tinker with names by analogy on the same principle.


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—Savir (debate) 13 August 2018 at 6:20pm (EEST) Savir has now moved articles away from their original names.


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I returned some back to their original names and Savir retweeted them so started an editing war.


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Is there going to be an edit block for him like it came to me?


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 13 August 2018 at 20:14 (EEST)) The rule is that if you undo the same edit for the third time without discussion on the subject, you commit editing wars.


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Savir apparently concluded that there would have been enough arguments in favour of his position in this debate, which had attracted the support of some of the participants in the debate.


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However, everything related has certainly not yet been brought up and further arguments can still be made.


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If further arguments are made, then they can be debated.


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The names Lorraine and Lothringen were even sometimes voted on, but I would see that continuing the debate and especially looking for sources and critical walkthroughs is a more fruitful way to go, as well as looking for what kind of arguments have made decisions in other wikis.


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- Often, though, it is so that the most persistent or smooth movement gets its position across, so sources outside wikipedia are better.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 13 August 2018 at 8:28pm (EEST) I don't think anyone could do the actual summary of the debate yet and of course someone (tm) could do it. —Urjanhai (debate) 13 August 2018 at 8:29pm (EEST) I think the real question is whether the Finnish map book produces an exonym.


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On the other hand, if you can turn the head of the chart-book publisher into the next edition, you will be strong. —Urjanhai (debate) 13 August 2018 at 8:31pm (EEST) Such “analogue tinkering” already goes so much on the side of your research that it also raises doubts about the validity of the map books themselves as a source and the compliance with Wikipedia's policies in this context, and for that I would not consider the matter definitively resolved.


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If there is a nomenclature source, then yes it should cover the entire nomenclature, and if the source does not cover the entire nomenclature, then is it the nomenclature source?


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—Urjanhai (debate) 13 August 2018 at 22:01pm (EEST) On the basis of the criteria put forward until now, I would not be able to use the phrase “for real names”.


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There may be sufficient arguments (when you would only know which way), but I would see that they haven't been exhaustively presented yet.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 13 August 2018 at 10:10pm (EEST) Refining the place name policy Wikipedia:Naming convention #Vieraskielinen place naming includes the practice of retrieving Russian place names only from EKI.


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The policy would need to be refined and agreed more thoroughly on the language of place names and which nomenclature sources are used in the articles.


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Guidelines on this have already been outlined above.


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—Raksa123 (debate) 13 August 2018 at 9:12pm (EEST) What language place name is Vienna?


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Iivarius (debate) 13 August 2018 at 22:00 (EEST) One thing that has not yet been raised is whether the Centre for Domestic Languages may have made any recommendations or guidance on which language names should be used in Finnish contexts such as these.


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I think this should be investigated.


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Another, which has also not been raised, whether the Kotus' instructions online or in books have highlighted something related to this.


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For example, there are very specific instructions on inflections of place names in different languages.


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The third, which has not been raised, is whether names such as this have been introduced in Finnish guidebooks on geographical names of the world, e.g. those written by Kerkko Hakulinen, and this newer “Parisian parrot noska”, etc.


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In addition, there may be booklets in the fields of denomination research and nomenclature where the topic may have been paged.


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In addition to this, one could look at other sources in Finnish, such as science fiction and non-fiction on these areas.


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After that come the corresponding international sources.


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That is, on the other hand, occurrences of the use of names in maps and map services of that country and, accordingly, in maps and map services of other speaking countries, because their relationship with that country and its languages as outsiders is the same as our own, i.e. an outsider.


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On the other hand, any recommendations from third countries or international scientific research, or recommendations of nation-wide organisations or any international agreements.


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- There has been no exhaustive examination of these either so far.


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And further from these, or also otherwise, it can become precisely the question that, whether there should be nomenclature sources, and if so what and on what basis defined.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 13 August 2018 at 10:51pm (EEST) The page contains open data sets from the Ordnance Survey, apparently the UK Land Survey.


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There you can find, for example, where there are different lingual forms of place names.


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is probably accurate enough to show all the place names, since the scale is 1:3,000-1:20 ,000.


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An overview can be obtained from a more inaccurate map.


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—Raksa123 (debate) 13 August 2018 at 10:57pm (EEST) 1:250 000 map (map sheet SH.tif) the island is “Bardsey Island/Ynys Enlli” and the strait next to it is “Bardsey Sound”.


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On the other hand, in that more accurate Local map (map sheet SH12SW.tif), the island is “Ynys Enlli/Bardsey Island” and the strait “Swnt Enlli/Bardsey Sound”.


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—Raksa123 (debate) 19 August 2018 at 12:41pm (EEST) I propose this as a hierarchy of sources for the selection of the name: Specific recommendation issued by the Language Office General rule The format used in the Finnish map book Conclusive general rule Used by another quality source in Finnish, such as a non-fiction book or expert UN recommendation UN Recommendation General rule to be inferred from UN recommendations The country itself in its primary official language and in Latin letters name format used by a map published by a Wikipedia article in the primary official language of that administrative region Within each category a newer or otherwise justifiably higher quality recommendation overturns the parent.


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—Savir (debate) 16 August 2018 at 10:14pm (EEST) I believe that the outline is in the right direction, except that “map books in Finnish” are problematic insofar as there are no guarantees (unless the principles and procedures are explicitly opened, e.g. a map book in the preface) on what the solutions are based on.


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They may be sources of mostly Finnish conciliatory names vs.


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for the use of primordial names, usually mainly found in places very large or very close to Finland.


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Furthermore, they tend to be small-scale and contain only a pene portion of the names, and the delineation of what names can fit on the map is haphazard from the point of view of the ensemble of the nomenclature.


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The “inference of general stubs” on the basis of such material is already new research and, as far as I can see, is not out of the question.


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If general rules on the use of foreign country place names are presented e.g. Kotus, let's be on more solid ground.


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With the comprehensive datasets produced by the country's own authorities, the same is already on a more solid basis.


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Such materials may also include or involve written and declared statements with justifications.


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The principles may also be presented by international organisations or may be included in international agreements.


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Today, when maps are produced from spatial data, the same data sets often appear in both maps and databases, both of which, at least in the EU, may also exist as open data.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 16 August 2018 at 10:52pm (EEST) I am opposed to such rules if they lead to articles being named inconsistently just because a single map book happens to use some specific format from a single location.


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Urjanhai has some good points above.


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For example, place names must be transliterated uniformly and can be used as forms consistent with some rational logic.


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For example, the rivers of Japan may appear in world atlases of what kind of spellings, but all rivers in Wikipedia must be named rationally according to a unified logic.


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Local knowledgeable sources are, in many cases, better and more reliable than general maps covering the world, whose authors cannot be more closely familiar with the conditions of many regions.


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It must be possible to exercise case-by-case judgement and at least not elevate general map books above other sources.


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The English Wikipedia often names and transliterates articles just how it hurts if a form has happened to appear in some English source — not go into such chaos.


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—Epiq (discussion) 17 August 2018 at 01:09am (EEST) First in my list are the Language Office guidelines to help avoid those problems you fear.


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They can be found, for example, which say that Japanese names are Latinized by the Hepburn system.


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In this map, too, the rivers of Japan are written in the same way as here, except that they are joined again in accordance with the river.


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In my list, the general recommendation of the Language Office is item 2 and thus higher than the writing format given by the atlas, so the name format used here is consistent with it.


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Why would you oppose that?


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What source would you like to name Japan's rivers?


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Not a Japanese, “local knowledgeable source” adds to the end of their rivers as they are Japanese-speaking sources.


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And do they know that the Hepburn system is used in Finland?


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In Japan, the Kunrei system is used.


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Only Finnish-language sources and Finnish transfer writing standards know the correct forms of writing to the Finnish language.


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And in my map, I think they are also correct, and I already told you that this atlas uses the UN referral recommendations.


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If they were not correct or used in Finland, the Language Office's recommendations would be used to find the right forms.


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It is with the use of consistent Finnish recommendations and atlases that the chaos you fear will be avoided, not by starting to hunt for the “real” name of each locality on a case-by-case basis on god knows what foreign-language website.


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Moreover, this debate is not so much about even that but the choice of the language version of the name.


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—Savir (debate) 17 August 2018 at 02:10am (EEST) And for that the map book is opaque: it is not possible to know what the content is based on if it is not reported in relation to a topic.


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Sometimes when I researched something by comparing different encyclopedias, I noticed that texts are recycled from one encyclopedia to another.


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On that, I agree there needs to be general sources.


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Nowadays, map books are already starting to be a bit ancient, and inevitably databases and map services are highlighted (they were on the en-wiki list too), and printed sources in Finnish are being driven down. —Urjanhai (debate) 17 August 2018 at 08:09am (EEST) Other sources are mentioned in addition to chart-books.