Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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The discussion now strayed so badly from the topic aside, I guess I can't have the stomach to comment anymore.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Throwing a crap can get you a tuut full of the same stuff back.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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—PE-ga-sos (debate) 23 August 2018 at 5:49pm (EEST) The television series uses the name under which it is aired in Finland.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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In what way is it to underestimate the viewer to use a Finnish name.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Yes Finnish must be supported and not to bring English into everything possible.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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—PTG (debate) 23 August 2018 at 23:05pm (EEST) Wikipedia forcibly twists everything in Finnish.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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The net is on its side of the debate about silly Finnish names for movies.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Let's keep dumbing down when told once.


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—Pe-ga-sos (debate) 24th Aug 2018 at 09:50 (EEST) Don't read the internet, it's full of all kinds of silly conversation.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Wikipedia isn't made based on vague internet chats, but using reliable sources.


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Read them.


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Vague internet conversations distort thinking.


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—37.33.179.186 24 August 2018 at 10:11am (EEST) I didn't get tired because of the online chat, but because you do what happens in general.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Wikipedia is online too and this discussion can't in any form be called high quality.


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—PE-ga-sos (debate) 24 August 2018 at 10:23am (EEST) Wikipedia's job is not to dignify the silliness of names, but to use the name that is commonly used.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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You can also find a lot of discussions in English on the internet about the silliness of some of the original names, for example.


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For example, the name of the Bond film Quantum of Solace is being barked at in many places.


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It has not been translated into Finnish.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Should we now come up with a better name for the movie on Wikipedia, so as not to put a silly English name?


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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—PTG (debate) 24 August 2018 at 11:22am (EEST) If the TV titles of movies are valid for Wikipedia, then I will use them in the future.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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But even this now went a bit aside on the subject when it was originally planned to discuss series names.


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I already went to rename the title of the article to YLE-style, though I'm not at all happy about this edit.


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—PE-ga-sos (debate) 24 August 2018 at 12:12pm (EEST) The films primarily use the original distribution title.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Television shows may still change the names of films, but that theatrical label is actually primary (often found in Elonet).


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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In television series then, of course, television names.


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—PTG (debate) 24 August 2018 at 12:27pm (EEST) They are doing these TV titles on a conveyor belt and even if the translation is not very successful someone will leak to Wikipedia.


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—PE-GA-SOS (debate) 24 August 2018 at 12:31pm (EEST) I mean the article Different top model in search.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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I wanted to mention it, insofar as anyone is digging into this discussion about caches in the archives.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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—PE-GA-SOS (debate) 24 August 2018 at 12:23pm (EEST) So the whole complaint began with a name that is quite good, quite sensible and which would have been difficult to better translate.


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Iivarius (debate) 24 August 2018 at 2:01pm (EEST) Why does everything always have to be so different, with the other kind of frends?


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Such language repeats and drives disabled people to the margins.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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It's not hard to come up with a better translation for a template program like, say, Looking for the Lost Top Model.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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This program is not part of the Top Model in Search series, so far the compiler has made a bad and misleading solution.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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—PE-ga-sos (debate) 24 August 2018 at 2:19pm (EEST) Asiahan is not corrected by typing here.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Contact the TV channels that are airing those shows and reasonably tell us why the names are bad.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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This whole thread of discussion is therefore completely pointless.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Now it's only in your last post that you tell me what's at issue, which is attitudes towards people with disabilities, discriminatory use of language.


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I myself have had the news headline changed when I posted a message about its offensiveness.


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I don't know if you can change series names just like that in the middle of everything, but thinking about future series you might wake them up thinking about what kind of names will be given to the series.


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Perhaps they could even consult those organisations whenever there is some more special series coming up.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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—mtt.wiki (discussion) 24 August 2018 at 2:34pm (EEST) Öö, different frends?


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What would the “equal” name be, Frendit?


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A little could be confused.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Pegasos, you're just off the bat.


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Retards are certainly not discriminated against by the names of TV shows, but rather other things like the lack of assistants and taxi rides etc.


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176.72.153.35 August 30, 2018 6:26pm (EEST) If there is more interest in the media industry and its way of dealing with disability, read Black Glasses — Disability on the big screen and on TV.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Now I'm not going to be riddling what would be a better name for this series of The Other Friends', because no one will benefit from it.


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TV and movies really have a lot of influence and can influence disability policy and perhaps whether you get taxi rides and a comfortable and skilled assistant.


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What is pointless here now is to go personal and claim that I don't realize anything about these things.


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—Pe-ga-sos (debate) 30 August 2018 at 6:38pm (EEST) Names of paralysis and other plegions Yes, there must be some exuberant around here who is perhaps following this conversation.


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Because of my poor state of health, I can't get in touch with anything.


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This discussion is not entirely pointless, because I eventually changed the name and created a new specification page on that page.


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Here, there are enough windmills to fight against.


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Could be the place of his own discussion to chat about articles on lower limb paralysis, quadriplegia, etc., whose names should be paraplegia and tetraplegia, forcibly twisted translation of terms everyone understands in this day anyway.


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Then what do you do when someone creates an article about monoplegy?


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It's quite pointless to change these things.


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—PE-GA-SOS (debate) 24 August 2018 at 2:46pm (EEST) The disease classification uses both, both paralysis and paraplegia.


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If the latter is considered better, I think you can change it.


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Diabetes isn't diabetes anymore, after all.


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Admittedly, it's hard for the people to understand and remember those foreign languages, but I guess that doesn't stop the article from changing the name if the controls are in order.


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—mtt.wiki (debate) 24 August 2018 at 3:05pm (EEST) It would be consistent and clear to use the plegia-ending in every article.


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—Pe-ga-sos (debate) 24 August 2018 at 3:15pm (EEST) —PE-ga-sos (debate) 24 August 2018 at 3:19pm (EEST) If no one objects, you can transfer them from the disease classification to the name you have checked.


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You understand the point perhaps best.


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However, please wait before the transfer so that the interlocutors can comment.


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PS: en.wikipedia or wiktionary is not the source.


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—mtt.wiki (debate) 24 August 2018 at 3:22pm (EEST) These plegia-ending concepts are so brisk that if they were all forcibly twisted into a better language, we would be in a swamp that cannot be reached.


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—Pe-ga-sos (debate) 15:25 (EEST), 24 August 2018 now names have been changed.


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It doesn't take long for anyone to wonder, then, when everyone is plegia-ending.


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—Pe-ga-sos (discussion) 24 August 2018 at 7:32pm (EEST) What is plegia in Finnish? —Maquire (debate) 24 August 2018 at 7:35pm (EEST) It is a suffix meaning paralysis.


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These different types of paralysis are few at every start, so this is the clearest solution.


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—Pe-ga-sos (discussion) 24 August 2018 at 7:41pm (EEST) Thank you for the information.


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Couldn't be found on the english wikipedia even as a control page. —Maquire (debate) 24 August 2018 at 7:50pm (EEST) I mean what the hell?


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Do we now have an article on cardiac plegia then?


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Well if you want an English wikipedia about this, then let's go with it.


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At the same time, take the Finnish language to follow up the string.


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Iivarius (discussion) 24 August 2018 at 20:13 (EEST) I advised you to take a look at Classification of Diseases.


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I guess heart stroke in modern parlance is merely a figurative word of shock.


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—mtt.wiki (debate) 24 August 2018 at 8:19pm (EEST) And then more analytically: Finnish does not work as a language the same as English (let's just grab Greek and Latin for the lexical language) or even like Russian or Japanese (take a hefty amount of loans from each of the main languages) as such, only sonically adapting them better to the phonotaxis) but even though the lending intensity of the Finnish language has risen somewhat over the last few decades, it is still quite normal in the 2020s that some of the new words come from Finnish professionals development of new words, be they translation loans, wiring or whatever.


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And some of the words come directly from the linguistic community in such a way that even possible quotes adapt to language subsystems.


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There is nothing wrong with the word paralysis, paralysis is just fine Finnish, and there is nothing invalid about it.


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It is certainly not necessary to mechanically replace it with plegia (which is not only English suffix but its own Greek word).


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Iivarius (debate) 24 August 2018 at 8:23pm (EEST) As long as we get rid of the expressions “Vienna” and “potassium” in the Finnish text, then finer nuances can be filtered then. —Urjanhai (debate) 24 August 2018 at 22:30 (EEST) Unless that “plegia” is just the same series, I can't say. —Urjanhai (debate) 24 August 2018 at 10:31pm (EEST) It is not a terribly awesome or automatically supportable idea to start obscuring the names of diseases by changing them into loanwords.


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On the other hand, this is understandable in itself, that there is a clear tendency in real language to try to distance nasty things (such as diseases) by using euphemisms from them, which the quotation loan is less transparent.


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Yet they have the dimension of monk latin affirming the authority of a professional group and making it difficult to understand, so I would not particularly encourage this.


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Yes “X is quadriplegic” is clearer, more linguistic and expressive than the Capular palsy and noun disease “X is a tetrapleegic” or “X suffers from tetraplegia”.


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I also question the generality of the term outside the circle of advocacy enthusiasts.


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—Louhkärmes (debate) 24 August 2018 at 10:34pm (EEST) I suppose it depends on whether laymen or medical and language professionals do this.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 24 August 2018 at 10:37pm (EEST) “Forcibly twisted translation of terms that everyone understands today anyway”.


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Well, I would disagree with this.


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For example, I do not remember the word tetraplegia ever heard, the word quadriplegic, on the other hand, has been received very often in the media (e.g. when there has been a case about Jari Mönkkönen's case).


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E.g. HusKin still uses “general knowledge of quadriplegic paralysis” as the title, so that word certainly isn't obsolete.


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I think this more generic word would be better as the title of the article, although of course you can get to the right article through the redirect page.


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Incidentally, there has been discussion of these plegias in the Coffee Room before, at least Wikipedia:Coffee Room (language maintenance) /Archive 40 #Kaikkea would not need to be translated.


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—Nironen (debate) 24 August 2018 at 10:43pm (EEST) Reconciliation presentation The title of the article is what the Duodecim Health Library page is used firmly. —Supercat (debate) 24 August 2018 at 11:38pm (EEST) Finnish designations in general use should always be preferred over foreign language designations used by professionals.


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Even when a foreign-language designation is favoured in professional literature.


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Wikipedia is published for lay people who are not using or unable to learn Latin and Greek terminology like physicians and scientists.


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Moved paralysis articles should be returned to common language names.


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—Savir (debate) 25 August 2018 at 02:34 (EEST) This is the case.


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On Wikipedia, the wee winternoch is small wintering, rather than vinca minor.


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Furthermore, transfers of many articles to second names should be avoided before extensive discussion, which in this case did not take place. —Htm (debate) 25 August 2018 at 08:09am (EEST) Helsingin Sanomat: “Some professions work “bilingually”.


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For example, the expressions used by doctors among themselves are difficult for outsiders to understand, but when a doctor explains it to a patient, the words are more understandable.


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It belongs to professional competence.”


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The Duodecim Health Library shown above, a service for citizens, seems like a good source.


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It is also good because this common language terminoilogy is changing all the time and a new source will tell you what is the preferred designation at the moment.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 25 August 2018 at 08:39am (EEST) Selection of the language version of place names Many places in Wales and Scotland have been inconsistently named here, and the subject has been discussed in many places (see


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e.g., this discussion).


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Many of them are named from behind a few ip addresses with a Welsh or Gaelic name on ideological grounds, or on the basis that, according to some count, of the inhabitants, more than half know the local Celtic language.


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However, places should be named according to what name they use in Finnish texts.


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I have two atlases in Finnish.


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The second Atlas of the Finnish World (Genimap, 2006), according to its foreword, is “an atlas of the world made entirely in Finland, the content of which is designed specifically for the needs of the Finnish reader” and also says that “the spelling of place names in the atlas follows those given by the UN Recommendations” (specification: applies in this context only to place names written in non-Latin letters —Savir (debate) 10 August 2018 at 3:46pm (EEST)).


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My second map Geographica is a translation atlas, but the editorial board of the Finnish language department has a Finnish cartographer and many Doctors and Professor of Philosophy.


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Is it OK if I transfer the articles on Scotland and Wales to the names of that first mentioned atlas in cases where the articles are named in breach of practice?


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Especially if almost all language versions are under another name.


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Or does someone have an even more authoritative atlas at their disposal?


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—Savir (debate) 9 August 2018 at 11:22am (EEST) No map books needed for that.


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Articles on geographical objects should be named in the primary official language of the country unless a Finnish name is used.


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In Wales and Scotland, such a language is English.


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Wikipedia must not become a trickery field for ethno-huls.


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—Esamatti1 (discussion) 9 August 2018 at 11:53am (EEST) How do you deal with regional official languages?


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After all, we write the names of the Swedish-speaking localities in Finland in Finnish, because this is the Finnish wikipedia.


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Instead, in other languages they are in Swedish (e.g. In Tokyo, for example, I do not know if, for example, the countries that are speaking now have their own official languages. —Kirkhakkinen (debate) 9 August 2018 at 12:31pm (EEST) Apparently we have sometimes transferred names like Öjmököön's uluus to the names Oimjakon ulus.


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Probably then it has also been discussed and justified.


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I doubt very much that the justification then would have been any “Finnish map book”.


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- Same with watching ko.


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from the map book the way to the dairy trade.


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There may be some other arguments and could be tried to dig up.


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For example, there was a talk in the other thread about those Turkish place names.


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How do those commas and commas of i go in that finalized map book? —Urjanhai (debate) 9 August 2018 at 12:19pm (EEST) As a linguistic studies student specialising in the social status of minority languages, I would have no matter how much to say about this, but I will start by correcting the arguments made in the debate the most relevant errors.


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Firstly, it is not true that English is at least not the “primary official language” of Wales.


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Wales has extensive self-government and e.g.


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of its language laws, it enacts independently of the central government of the United Kingdom.


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Under Welsh law, on the other hand, the official languages are Welsh and English.


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In some cases Welsh is actually even favoured at the legislative level in relation to English.


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This also applies to place names, at least in so far as there is a law in Wales that on all new road signs and signs to be installed, the text section in Welsh and English must be such that 'the Welsh section is likely to be read first'.


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Case multiplied by mm


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Here: In practice, it means Welsh text and, for example, the place name comes in a line higher than the English name in the sign and with at least the same size font and at least as noticeable color in relation to the undercolor of the sign when written.


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This law is valid throughout Wales, including areas where only a very small proportion of the population are Welsh speakers.


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If the country's own language policy and specifically the language policy on the presentation of place names is like this, it would seem a rather peculiar and ideologically motivated choice to present all Welsh place names in vikipedia primarily in English, i.e. even in regions such as place names with Welsh being the locally majority language and the definite main language of the local community.


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There are areas in Wales, for example County Gwynedd, where the main language of local government is Welsh and where, for example, all public schools are Welsh, i.e. in which all subjects are taught in Welsh except English, which is taught as a single subject, such as we too have a foreign language or another domestic language.


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Overall, Gaelic in Scotland does not have quite as strong a position as Welsh Welsh, but there are areas, especially on the Hebridean islands, where more than half the population is Gaelic-speaking.


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The place names that are currently in Vikipedia in Finnish with a Gaelic name are mainly based in this area, so moving them to an English name would seem an ideological choice disparaging the language of the local population in the area.


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Just in one article on the island of that region, Leodhàs agus na Hearadh is a photograph of a road sign installed by the official road administration etc., welcoming to that island or particular part of the island.


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Each participant in the discussion can take a look at its image with their own eyes and find that it has a Gaelic text and a place name in the upper line and, moreover, with a significantly larger text size written than the corresponding English text.


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Perhaps this says something about the local linguistic conditions and what both the people of the area and the local government consider to be the primary language of the area, and what language place names are the primary names for the staples.


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It should be mentioned that some linguistic scholars who have studied the language conditions of the Hebrides and the Highlands have begun to use Gaelic place names systematically even in English text, probably to emphasise the originality and primacy of staples in relation to English speakers to names: A large part of Scottish place nameshere, both in the Hebrides and elsewhere, is of Gaelic origin, meaning even English names are basically just “misspelled” Gaelic and mean nothing in English, while those who understand Gaelic know immediately, what does the place name mean.


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When you talk about the “primary official language of the country”, then what is meant by that too?


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The official language or official languages may be different languages depending on whether it is spoken at the state level, autonomous community level, county level, or municipal level.


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And there can be many formal languages at some or more levels without being able to explicitly define which of those parallel formal languages is the primary one.


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Neither does Switzerland speak the Swiss language or Belgian language in Belgium.


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And even if there was one main language at the state level, even if we always took this official language at the state level as a starting point, it would immediately come to very strange results.


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In Spain, for example, Spanish is the only official language at the whole state level, but several autonomous communities have another official language and in some cases this particular regional language is preferred.


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For example, in Catalonia and Galicia, the only official forms of locality names are the Catalan and Galegonese forms of the Niite, although they would also have existing Spanish forms that can be used in Spanish-speaking but only informal contexts.


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In the Basque Autonomous Community of the majority of place names, only the Basque form is official, even if there is a Spanish form.


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On the other hand, both are official, but the order of presentation of the staples in the official context is stipulated so that the Basque name is presented first.


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For example, the official name of the province Araba/Álava of the Basque Autonomous Community is just such, meaning that it mentions both the Basque and Spanish name, but the order is prescribed so that the Basque name comes first.


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In turn, it has been stipulated for the names of the provinces of Gipuzkoa and Bizkaia that the only official names of the niites are the Basque names of the niites, although there are also Spanish informal versions of the names of the niites.


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As for the aforementioned fear that vikipedia would become “the trickery field of ethno-huls”, then I find this kind of comment very strange and downright offensive.


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It is not an “ethnohihhulation” to present place names in Vikipedia in Finnish, primarily in the language that is 1) the indigenous language of the region, (2) official at the level of regional government, provincial administration or municipal administration, and even in some respects, such as in relation to the name of the locality , the preferred language of the local government, and (3) in many cases the principal home and/or school language for residents of a region or locality to this day.


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In summary: I always consider the most neutral choice to present the name of a locality or geographical object primarily in the indigenous language of the region.


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I can support this practice even in cases where the regional language does not have an official status due to the discriminatory language policy of the State, but even more self-evident use of the indigenous language of the region should be if the regional government itself clearly favours it and yet more clearly if you are dealing with a locality where the vast majority of the population today speaks a particular language as their home language, goes to school in it, etc. At the bottom of making any other kind of language choice can only be ignorance and infamiliarity with the language situation in the region, or an ideological choice to literally eradicate minority languages from the world map.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 10 August 2018 at 00:56 (EEST)) According to Wikipedia, Welsh accounts for less than three parts of the population of Wales and only half of this third use it.


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Gaelic is spoken by 1.2% of Scotland's population.


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So there is no question that English is the power language of both regions.


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The job of the English Wikipedia is not to revive dying languages, and I don't see how to make a difference here anyway.


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User Jani Koskin's actions are ideologically motivated and not based on a real situation.


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What's descriptive is that he prefers to be named Welsh e.g. Buckingham and the Palaces of Westminster.


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—Esamatti1 (discussion) 10 August 2018 at 08:19 (EEST) You should visit the user's “language activism” on Facebook by the way.


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Quite an amusing thing that has nothing to do with linguistics.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 10 August 2018 at 08:31am (EEST) Well yes at least and according to it is, because once the cantuate examiner has been approved at the university.


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Different then what should be wikipedia's policy. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 09:28am (EEST) I think that any user's activities outside wikipedia are probably not terribly relevant here.


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I myself consider outsized those palace-related examples, since Welsh is the official language only in Wales, or what is its status on the English side?


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But even though Welsh and Gaelic speakers make up such a small proportion of the population, perhaps it should be noted that there is a very regional emphasis on the speakers, Welsh: and Gaelic: I think that it is not quite an unfounded idea that in some cases Welsh or Gaelic could not be the primary name option in those areas where language accounts for more than 50%.


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In Finland, Swedish is spoken only by 5.2%, but we still have a majority of Swedish-speaking localities, and in the case of these, apparently in other languages, the Swedish option is preferred (of course we do not, as we are the Finnish wikipedia).


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I don't have a strong view on the subject, but I think the whole thing should not be categorically torn down just because someone in favour of the cause is guilty of excesses.


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But Stornoway, for example, sounds more natural to my ear than Steòrnabhagh, and according to en-wiki, Gaelic is spoken there by a minority, 43%. —Kirkhakkinen (debate) 10 August 2018 at 09:40 (EEST) It would be nice if the accusations against me even had the facts.


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I have, as far as I recall, never edited an article on Buckingham Palace and when I looked now at its editing history, I found no sign there that anyone ever tried to add a Welsh name to it.


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In the case of the Palace of Westminster, the claim is correct, but please note that I have tried to add the Welsh name in parentheses after the English name, not really the primary name.


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For example, there are reasons for the fact that the name could even be mentioned in that case, which I have mentioned on the discussion page of the article in question, for example that there is an institution in the building, namely the Parliament of the United Kingdom, in which the Welsh has partial official status.


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In fact, Welsh is allowed to give speeches in the Parliament of the United Kingdom at certain sessions, and that right is specifically mentioned in some United Kingdom law.


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But this is a different question than what name should be used as a priority when talking about sites in Wales.


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Calling language “dying” is a pretty drastic use of language.


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There is usually talk of “endangered” languages, as the word “dying” suggests that nothing can be done about it and that the death of the language would be necessary, in someone's opinion perhaps even desirable.


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Languages do not die by themselves; the death of language is practically always the result of discrimination.


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When it comes to Welsh, speaking of a “dying” language hits it very badly in the forest, since Welsh is one of the most vibrant minority languages in Europe.


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Although the number of speakers of a language alone does not yet say much about the vitality of the language, it should be mentioned that Welsh has more speakers than, say, Icelandic, which no one should mind calling a dying language.


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And, as Kirkhakkinen's analogy with the percentage of Finnish-Swedes in Finland shows, there is also no point in considering such matters at the level of the whole state or necessarily at the whole autonomous community, because then ignores that at a more local level some small language may be somewhere in the main language.


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In addition, it may be somewhere that the main language of the region has changed in recent history when parents have ceased to speak their own language to their children, but the majority of the inhabitants of which nevertheless have parents, grandparents or great-grandparents who have been speakers of that language and who therefore advocate a conscious revival of language, i.e., empowerment (more recently the latter term has begun to be favoured) in the region and, for example, the preference for indigenous place names.


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In addition, in cases where the number of speakers of an indigenous language has fallen just and just below that magical 50% limit in recent decades (as may be the case with the Steòrnabhagh/Stornoway, for example) you might want to wait a little longer before leaving change the primacy of names.


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If any language has been a local major language somewhere for centuries, then at least I would at least let its original name be primary for a long time before thinking that the language has now definitively been left offside in that locality.


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Many times these localities have different processes running simultaneously, which may swing percentages in different directions.


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For example, language nesting and language immersion type training solutions often aim to increase the number of young people who control the local language, but at the same time, migration from other main-speaking areas to the locality may be rapid and the number of people who migrate from elsewhere will decrease in the number of speakers of the language percentages of locality.


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Is that right, too, to move to the main language name instead of the local language, just because there are a lot of people who have migrated to the locality, although if you count the percentages of those born in the locality or the local area, the proportions Would you be something else?


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As for my educational background, if it needs to be more fed, I have graduated with a Bachelor of Arts majoring in Finno-Ugric Language Studies and am currently writing a graduate.


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It's pretty drastic to start talking about me as a stranger or a person outside this field about me as “a language activist whose business has nothing to do with linguistics.”


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Minority language scholars increasingly see it as their mission to try, in addition to their actual research, to promote the life potential of the languages they study and to participate in the social debate on the development of their status.


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As my now public facebook page has also been referenced and claimed that it has “nothing to do with linguistics”, it should be mentioned that most of my facebook friends who I talk with are linguists and a large number of them already have a much longer career than I, and in the vast majority of things, my own positions are in no way fundamentally different from the ideas of other people in the same field.


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However, Facebook has nothing to do with vikipedia, so what I do there is no argument in any direction in this discussion here.


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As for the argument that my actions are “ideologically motivated”, I reply that promoting an opposing view is at least no less ideologically motivated than my actions.


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The use of the term “dying language” suggests that the person using it really wishes the language to die, and in Welsh, the use of the concept also indicates that the person making the claim is not familiar with the situation in Welsh.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 10 August 2018 at 1:43pm (EEST)) Minority languages (and their speakers) are not 'good' and majority languages' bad '.


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The main language is an important tool for the speaker of a small language that allows you to get further away from their own home yard.


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It also allows a bystander to find there in the home yard if the need arises.


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In Wikipedia, solutions should be based on reason and practical needs, not ideological fallacies resembling religion.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 10 August 2018 at 2:00pm (EEST) On the other hand, small languages are not bad and listable either.


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Therefore, Wikipedia's position in both big and small languages should be neutral.


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I don't happen to have jerks in my own name, but if it did, I would raise a mecca if they were abused. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 2:13pm (EEST) I don't know about Esamat, but I for one can find a place easier if I know the place with the name written in the most prominent place on the signpost in the area where the place is located.


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And when it comes to a small place, there are no signs to lead there even anywhere outside its own territory, that is, practically all road signs in the world that lead you to it are those where the local name comes first.


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(Jani Koskien (discussion) 10 August 2018 at 2:18pm (EEST)) Swedish-speaking people are also one percent of the Finnish population, and nevertheless there is EN:Karis on the en-wiki.


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Yes, the answer to this must be found in Wikipedia's policies.


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That is, if en-wiki has en:karis then what exactly does it not apply to the fi wiki as far as English compulsions are concerned.


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There may well be, and perhaps there is, an argument for this, but it should be made.


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—Urjanhai (debate) on 10 August 2018 at 09:35am (EEST) of Finland (i.e.


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the Finnish and Swedish Language Boards) own wish for English to be used in English according to the majority language of the municipality, see. —Silvonen (debate) 10 August 2018 at 10:45am (EEST) On the other hand, there is also En:Utsjoki.


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There's probably some justification for this, too.


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These fundamentals in different wikis should therefore be delved into.


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The fact that someone thinks is a “hihhuli” is not justification.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 09:37am (EEST) I think Finnish is narrowly the majority language of Utsjoki.


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That is, there is no contradiction in that, but in the enwiki I think we go according to the majority language of the place.


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—PTG (debate) 10 August 2018 at 09:43am (EEST) I would recall somewhere that in Koutokeino the language of the majority would be Sami.


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In the wiki article, I see that the issue has even been discussed and fought a transfer modification war. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 09:48 (EEST) On the basis of Norskiwiki, Koutokeino has a pretty clear Sámi majority.


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But I would think that this language issue is the root of one that every wiki has its own constant arguments about.


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—PTG (discussion) 10 August 2018 at 09:55am (EEST) Fortunately, our Finnish wikipedia does not need to participate in that dispute when the locality has a Finnish name. —Kirkhakkinen (debate) 10 August 2018 at 10:00am (EEST) The question is whether the articles are named in a rational way based on reality that meets the needs of the Finnish-speaking reader.


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Or will minority language activists who have slanted their ideology determine the naming criteria for the Finnish-language Wikipedia?


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 10 August 2018 at 10:30am (EEST) When you look at the article that was the starting point of the debate, the Wikipedias that ended up in the Welsh article appear to be: Breton, Catalan, Czech, Basque, livvin Karelian, Occitan and Slovak.


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Bardsey's positions include Cebuano, German, Estonian, Spanish, French, Dutch, Galician, Italian, Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese, Russian and Swedish.


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—Urjanhai (discussion) 10 August 2018 at 11:32am (EEST) And even in a few of them the same user is here.


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—Otrfan (debate) 10 August 2018 at 11:39am (EEST) What are the “needs of the Finnish reader” mentioned by Esamat?


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A Finn will be interested in reading about such small localities abroad as vikipedia, probably mainly at that point if you are traveling in that area.


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And when travelling there you will, at least in Wales and parts of Scotland (as I witnessed above), against signposts where the Welsh or Gaelic name occupies a more prominent place than the English one.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 10 August 2018 at 2:10pm (EEST)) In one of the debates related to this, I remember the UN guidelines mentioned (I will probably not have time to dig up all the discussions in this regard).


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I remember coming across these UN guidelines through something when I happened to pay attention to article titles like En:Lake Nuijamaa, but I see that conversation took place somewhere other than that.


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Another one that has come across here is that Helyulyua and Lakhdenpokhya have already been mentioned by a user in these discussions, when from the Russian point of view of the wiki the relevant editors claim the names “Russians”, although I suppose the objective fact of historiallinre is that the Russians themselves too considers the names in question to be in Finnish.


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I guess in the Fi wiki we should go to the roots of our own naming convention.


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Further up, I compared the use of an atlas map of the entire globe as a nomenclature for small villages to using the same map as a guide to a dairy trade.


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I guess sometimes it was voted to be Lorraine and not Lothringen (and that's where the German language is already in the minority).


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It may be that we have some decision to use the language of the country, but we should just now dig it up and examine its rationale.


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That practice of mapbooks invoked here is, as far as I can see, not the one that determines the fate of little villages the size of a fly speck on such world maps.


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I would be more interested in seeing though the local GT map of the area. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 07:30 (EEST) As a Finn, I am used to seeing on maps that “Närpes, Närpiö”, “Lohja, Lojo”, so intuitive estri would expect that the situation would be the same elsewhere.


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If it is not, then it would be interesting to examine why not, on the one hand with regard to what has been agreed to be practice on our own wiki and other wikis, and on the other hand, for example, in a UN recommendation.


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In the de-wiki I remember being specific about this (while there again I paid attention to why the historical province was “Öaterbotten”, even though the inhabitants of the historical province (as opposed to the modern province) are majority Finnish-speaking. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 07:36am (EEST) I will add the beginning of the section “Nomenclature” on page 9 from this Atlas map: “In the map, the names are usually written in each country's own language.


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The exception is established Finnish conciliatory names.”


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The settlement names mention both the Omani and the conformist name.


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—Savir (debate) 9 August 2018 at 12:42pm (EEST) The name of the surrendered Karelia is therefore there in Atlas in Russian, because it is its own language, is it?


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 3:29pm (EEST) Both the Russian-language name and the Finnish-language amicable form (if they are different) have been mentioned on the settlement names in Karelia.


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—Savir (debate) 10 August 2018 at 3:35pm (EEST) But in English they are not either of these, at least in the opinion of the English Wikipedia.


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They are Ryaisyalyai and Khelyulyai.


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 3:40pm (EEST) I suppose you can say that the English Wikipedia, as I understand it, is clearly wrong (as can be prepared that any wikipedia can be at any time on any issue, regardless of good purpose).


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The historical fact is that the parts of the ceded territory belonging to the Republic of Karelia once introduced Finnish names for places, and therefore even the Russians themselves have never thought that the names were somehow “Russian-speaking” because they once are Finnish-speaking (after all, we have exclusive names here and there in Finland).


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The opinion is only relevant from the point of view of the Russian language en-wikipedists.


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From the point of view of the Finnish language and, I understand, also objective reality, they are simply wrong.


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If the Russian map depicts the territory of Finland, and it contains Säkylä Pyhäjärvi, Pyhäjärvi on the border between Finland and Russia, and even if (hypothetically) some third Pyhäjärvi entirely on the side of the Republic of Karelia (by some name you will probably find such a series of three names), and the Russians In the opinion of themselves, all three names are in Finnish, so it can't be anything but being wrong.


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User:wpk sometimes tried to fight this windmill on en-wiki, but with his method (=editing war and juupas eipäs argumentation) the attempt was doomed regardless of whether he was ultimately right or not. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 4:13pm (EEST) How is the side of the Republic of Karelia?


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Is Lahdenpohja or Lakhdenpokhya?


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(When it's delivered in Finland, I'd bet on the first one.)


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—Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 4:25pm (EEST) Generally speaking, where the other side of the debate is accused of bias, I would say for me that the author of Inker Villages, who has been very much in the voice, is yes then biased there in the direction of panslavism.


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 3:31pm (EEST) On the villages of Inker I have written primarily by I.


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Can you justify your pan-slavism accusation?


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 10 August 2018 at 5:55pm (EEST) And as far as scientifically concerned, the names are not really any languages: they are their own separate and omalacic aspect of the lexicology of all languages - some of the general rules of language lexics apply to them, some of them not at all.


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You can't really argue rationally that Stockholm is Swedish - or it is more scientifically accurate to state that the name Stockholm has names derived from the Swedish language.


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But Stockholm is Stockholm in a Swahili language context as well.


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 3:39pm (EEST) I now also have the Great World atlas published by the Map Centre for 2013.


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It too is “made entirely in Finland and designed specifically for the needs of the Finnish reader”.


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The explanation of Nomenclature is the same as in the map I mentioned above.


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To correct the opening post, that mention of the UN recommendations is for names that use the non-Latin writing system.


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I also took a look at the Language Office's Paris to Parrot Lodge book, and it says that the trend is generally that the denomination seeks to comply and exonyms are being abandoned, although this is not about them.


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I don't think there are any more recent and authoritative maps in Finland than this map centre atlas, so if the work is to be based on a source, maybe it is.


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—Savir (debate) 10 August 2018 at 3:45pm (EEST) Yes, there are efforts to abandon exonyms.


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How you can use it to justify abandoning the endonym in favour of the exonym, I do not understand.


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 16:00 (EEST) It has nothing to do with exonyms if there are more endonyms in one of the several languages.


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The question then arises as to which of these endonyms should be chosen by any other country and other languages.


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That's entirely different than having a map book or a list of Kotus' adaptive names to see if a foreign place should use someone's language name or a possible Finnish exonym.


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It is not an “exonym” either, if the Germans on their own maps write the Finns' unanimous wish to other countries that Närpes Närpiö and Lohja Lojo.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 4:20pm (EEST) You would be exactly right if we could consider English to be as original as Welsh or Gaelic in those regions.


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Kind of like an inverted version of the Österbotten situation you mentioned earlier: Exonyms with respect to eastern bottom became endonyms as the population of the region switched to speaking the language of exonyms.


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For centuries, the Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnia had virtually no Finnish-speaking people.


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Here the situation is the other way around: only endonyms have been used from the old places, but in the last few hundred years the same initially differently-language population has switched their language to the language of exonyms, making it seem as if the exonym is preferred.


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 4:40pm (EEST) Now you have to open that text is so concise that I can't stay on the cart. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 4:50pm (EEST) However, the general principle should be found here.


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As we now have two fennists in this EDIT: Fennougrist (User:Iivarius and User:Jani Koski, with the professionalism of Fennist (or even Slavist) you would probably have to find an external source other than your own research, be it the UN or whatever.


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When you searched the link above, it turned out “Bardsey Island [Ynys Enlli]” and a map was opened that said “Ynys Enlli/Bardsey Island” (that is, just as we say in maps Närpiö Närpes and Lohja Lojo and other wikis are titled in the article e.g. Närpes or Lohja.


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That Fennist's professionalism would now be needed to dig up whether that map of the link is any official source that we, as a neutral, reliable source, could follow. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 4:49pm (EEST) I understand that neither of these “fennists” has completed a master's degree with a target period of five years.


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Correct me if I'm wrong.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 10 August 2018 at 5:58pm (EEST) I started studies in 2006, I have not finished yet.


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With just over three hundred credits completed, there will be someone 20 more this winter.


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Eng. yo.


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still, therefore, and I think I will be for the rest of life.


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Neither of us and Jan are fennists, fennist when you're a special case of fennougrist.


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Neither of us has claimed to have a master's.


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Iivarius (debate) 10 August 2018 at 6:07pm (EEST) Well, again I messed up the terms.


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As long as now some uralistic either way. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 6:22pm (EEST) When I am not a Fennist (nor a Slavist) but have completed my own master's degree in another faculty, I cannot say whether ao requires.


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using appointments from some individuals that they would have earned a master's degree.


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Maybe someone here does.


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I could very well imagine that students could well characterize each other and themselves e.g. as “business scientists” or “agricultural-forestry scientists” without the designation meaning that you have completed a degree.


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Or, perhaps, somewhere in a workplace where there are people from different fields, no matter which of them have earned a master's degree, bachelor's degree, or are still matriculating, if you want to keep a chapter on what field of education each represents. —Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 6:43pm (EEST) (However, today many people start to refer to themselves as “academics” as soon as they have been accepted into the university, but I meant generally correctly used appointments, and not those used because of ignorance and misused.)


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—Urjanhai (debate) 10 August 2018 at 6:47pm (EEST) And if it is now from the qualifications, I have an old licentiate degree, which was not at all easy for the Finnish language exam, even though it is my mother tongue.


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Though I'm not an academic linguist except for those languages in their mouths.


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And in my profession I have had to understand quite a few spoken languages creatively applying.


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I don't want to mess with this lightening.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:35am (EEST) If you have to find some sort of general principle, then I would, at least for municipalities in Wales, look on the official website of the municipality to see if there is a logo, etc., that would have both sides. names.


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One could then choose here primarily for use whichever one in this logo appears on either the left or the upper row.


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This would probably best reflect what the locality's inhabitants themselves consider their primary place name.


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This principle would also be very similar to the principle mentioned in this debate that, with the exception of Vikipedia in Finnish, vikipedias in other languages use the Swedish name of the Finnish-Swedish municipalities specifically because it is the own wish of these municipalities.


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In this case of Ynys Enlli, the site of the foundation that cares for the island can be considered as the most official site.


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The Foundation's website can be found both at www.enlli.org and www.bardsey.org Both addresses lead to the same bilingual site, whose landing page in the top left corner has its name Ymddiriedolaeth Ynys Enlli/Bardsey Island Trust written in the logo of the trust caring for the island such that the proportion in Welsh is on the left and upper lines relative to the English section.


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In addition, the landing page title Croeso i Ynys Enlli/Welcome to Bardsey Island is on the same principle, with the Welsh section being on the upper line than the English one.


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The same order of languages exists in all other texts found on the lower landing page.


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In the case of Wales, this might be a good practice, but you have to take into account that there are a wide range of countries in the world and the same principle cannot be applied blindly to place names in all countries.


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In the case of Russia, for example, it is pretty clear that because of the oppression of linguistic minorities there, it is not possible to put the local language as the first language on the official website of the municipality, even if almost 100% of the inhabitants are indigenous speakers of the region.


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Yet in such cases, I think it should be possible to use a local name as a primary name in non-Russian vikipedias.


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I don't know for sure, and I don't have time to try to find out at the moment, but it is very possible that the Öjmököön uluus mentioned earlier in that debate will have the Yakuts in the majority locally.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:04 (EEST)) How would you see that in this discussion User:Savir linked to some UN page, where some OSM-based map from the UK showed the name of the island mentioned in the opening comment in Welsh first?


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The corresponding position in Finland is probably the map place and Kotus publications.


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Wikipedia usually seeks to obtain one such compiled database, e.g. the existence of Finnish local Finnish place names is the source of a database called eki.ee.


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In the names of people from the minority peoples of Russia, we have sometimes ended up with obscure names in history, but in place names again in Russian, excluding Finnish place names because the language of our own wiki is Finnish.


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That is, if you ended up using minority-language place names on the fi wik', then some compiled source like that would perhaps come into question in that case. —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:03pm (EEST) Ynys Enlli/Bardsey Island was indeed shown in that UN map linked by Savir in this order, but on the other hand the same map contains the names of some other localities in such a way that the English name is first, even if it is even a region or locality with more than 50% Welsh speakers (although too straightforward application of this 50% limit would be problematic to me as I said earlier).


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I am disturbed in almost every map by their internal inconsistency in such matters and the fact that no map users are properly told in detail the naming principles that would explain such contradictions.


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For that reason, too, I think it would be better to find a principle that would allow transparency for each individual locality, that is, for each individual name, one could know why the name that has been chosen has been chosen.


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Compiled databases may not answer this question, and there are many databases and map books, so which one would even choose.


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Still, I think the best way is to appeal as directly as possible to the order in which the municipality itself writes its name.


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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:23pm (EEST)) Actually, that depends on how things are organised in each country.


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If a database, map data, or map book is devoid of internal consistency or non-transparent in configuration principles, then it may be difficult or impossible to rationally use it as a comprehensive or general source.


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If it is high-quality and transparent and comprehensive, it can be used.


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Thus I can argue that there are e.g. Finland and Norway for Finnish, Swedish- Norwegian and Sámi place names.


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Databases and maps produced by Finnish and Norwegian authorities and research institutes make it possible to fully designate articles.


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(But when wiki's own language is as one of the languages, then of course the prioritization goes differently.)


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An example of a bad database (American Geonames) was seen when articles were created on sv and ceb wikis with bots, and the result was, for example, a hill called Vehmassalmi, an island called Ryssugnar () and the sands of Kalajoki in the category Finnish sand deserts and boulders in category cliffs (cf.


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en: “rock”). —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 6:22pm (EEST) “Proprie's position in both language use and lexicology is largely different from that of appellative vocabulary.


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Proprie do not necessarily have to be the same language that is otherwise used, and can be successfully identified and used without understanding their form and meaning more profoundly.


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Propres do not necessarily need- it even be considered to have meaning in the usual sense of the word. “


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states Kaisa Häkkinen, and the interlinguistic language is spoken by Janne Saarikivi, among others.


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Iivarius (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:00 (EEST) Whaddodo This is a difficult question and it is not worth saving time in solving it (if that is somehow logically unclear, then I mean it is worth taking the time).


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This has been discussed with the Uluuses.


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I don't think this will survive without an opinion poll and a vote unless one has already been done.


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If we have already accustomed, for example, to the name Oimjakon before it starts with Ö, then we can understand it.


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And I will inform you at the outset that I am one of the most strident opponents of English domination who can be found on the Finnish Wikipedia.


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It is because the language - according to the familiar English teacher - is learned, and secondly because it also comes with rapatronic attitudes.


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Of course, the same criticism should be taken against other colonial languages such as French, Spanish, Russian, Portuguese, Dutch and probably German.


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And it's not as simple as this either.


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Esamatti rarely errs in his estimates, but I recommend reflecting.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:19 (EEST) Only falls flimsy here, but it was the last egg to change Grosia's name to Georgia.


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Our good neighbour and Grosia's supreme friend in the EU, namely Estonia, continues to use the name Grosia.


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What stumble did we have when our neutrality was called Finnishness?


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:24am (EEST) to the matter.


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As languages die, a lot goes from humane culture.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:30am (EEST) This, in my opinion, is not a voting issue, but a matter of nomenclature source and nomenclature source work.


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Once I already used these lingivists with or without a cantilever to prepare.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:48am (EEST) It took a moment to understand that long word, but you weren't supposed to be Savonian.


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With all due respect to them, too.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:06am (EEST) Now there is already a little bit next to the subject, but Urjanhai has to refer to it in order to make his sense of being a defender of the use of the dialect and for the sake of writing a “cantituatinologist” in North-Karelia itäsavolaisela murttiila.


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(Jani Koskki (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:31am (EEST)) I linked it somewhere further up in this discussion when first someone else had linked the facebook page, where I noticed that I had linked myself earlier.


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thesis article on Savolian dialects.


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As a layman who dabbles in dialects and languages, I just keep borrowing idioms from different dialects and languages.


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Growing up in a monolingual but multi-dialect environment, I have grown accustomed to this since I was a child, but literary pursuits and different places of residence have since expanded the spectrum. —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:44am (EEST) The question is not difficult but easy, as the current policies of Wikipedia already give an answer.


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First, “information in articles should be based on reliable third-party published sources” and “Wikipedia should lean on generally accepted literature published by scholars or scholars wherever possible”.


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Secondly, “the name of the article must be the one used to refer to the subject in the common Finnish language.”


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And in the common language of Finnish, foreign localities do use the names used in Finnish maps, whatever else.


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Neither in this debate nor in any vote, the basic tenets of Wikipedia can be refuted.


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This is just a matter of what explicit atlas or recommendation we use in naming articles like this.


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I will, in a few days, name the articles on the basis of this discussion and the best-proven source literature, and at the same time source the names.


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—Savir (debate) 11 August 2018 at 00:54 (EEST) Savir, that was a great summary.


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We don't need to know the characteristics of all indigenous languages.


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Instead, it is good to have the original version or versions mentioned.


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In addition, can make control pages as needed.


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I wonder if there's a consensus here.


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Although there are a lot of things you can't find.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 Aug 2018 at 01:06am (EEST) Yep.


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We believe that we should avoid having to value language policy solutions in a country as discriminatory or non-discriminatory, or whatever the case may be.


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In my opinion, the discussion did not dwell on the point of view that it is not relevant to the Finnish-speaking reader why the inhabitants of place X call it themselves, or what the inhabitants of place Y call it X, but what the speakers of Finnish call it.


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And when factually the situation is that proprits in Finnish can be borrowed through a larger language, making them more familiar to us, even if this form is not used in the place.


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In such matters, we should not take any active role, according to the principles of Wikipedia, but look by and see what the situation is.


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Otherwise you have to take sides on issues that probably nest nationalist motives and threatened egos.


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Although nowadays it is fashionable to consider exonyms satanic, I think this view is unnecessarily monotonous if you think about it through the fact that the language is the property of its users and made for the needs of its speakers, not some third party.


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I don't think it is reasonable to demand from a moral standpoint that language speakers should be interested in adopting a name for general use with phonologies that are completely foreign to the phonology of their own language or that is otherwise inconvenient.


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And there could be several of those endonyms.


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If one Finn moves to a place in the world, does it become a moral right to give that place a Finnish name, but otherwise not?


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—Louhkärmes (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:42am (EEST) I don't really know but that apparently everyone thinks English is so cute and neutral that everything that English speakers do is always good and beautiful, and English-speaking can never be to be evil where it can be.


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Practicality is coherent law and pragmatism is that the state does not tax.


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That if it really is the case that moving a Finn to a place doesn't justify giving a Finnish name, how the hell does the English and Yanks move into places give you the right to rename all the winks.


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Iivarius (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:51am (EEST) Let us add that, of course, no one thinks Wikipedia should take an active role, so we can also return to the fact that there are two human genders, conservative and uncle, and thirteen colonies are rebellious and fall under the crown.


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Iivarius (debate) 11 August 2018 at 01:51am (EEST) For Iivarius, talking past the issue seems to be some kind of influence strategy.


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Apparently, in this case it is necessary to resort to the suggestion of the user Savir, although traditionally atlases are full of errors.


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Basically, localities are named according to the official language of the country, regardless of what the sign on the road cheek says there.


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Many countries such as Russia have an official register of inhabited places.


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There is also a law in Russia that local official languages are always secondary.


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 10:55am (EEST) I support Savir's proposal when no better has come, certainly not understandable.


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—Otrfan (debate) 11 August 2018 at 10:58am (EEST) So when we in Finland have decided to choose two official languages for ourselves, but some other countries do not (even if there are as many or more speakers of other languages than us), then let's go with this “officiality” according to politics?


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But where is this “officiality” now, for example, defined for the UK, and by whom or what entity has defined it?


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And where is it defined that we go according to the “official language” and if we go, where is defined?


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What here is the source of this “officiality” now though in the UK, and what source globally defines what constitutes an “official language”?


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—Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:11am (EEST) I am not an expert, as you can easily see, but the adoption of Swedish as the official language of Finland was political realism.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:10pm (EEST) So this was not a rhetorical question but a matter of fact, when now e.g. As for Russia, you knew how to answer it from the pharmacy shelf.


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—Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:15am (EEST) I understand that there is no actual 'official' language in Britain (unless 'Queen's language' is considered as such), but there is no doubt that the language of the country is English.


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In addition, there are officially recognized minority</b>languages.


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The official status of Welsh in Wales does not mean that even the main language isn't English (or because of that, the law on the Welsh language is actually enacted).


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—Esamatti1 (discussion) 11 August 2018 at 11:26am (EEST) And as an overlapping edit with your answer the second question, when User:Savir above gave that UN link, which was the OSM map that gave the first Welsh name on the map, so what is the position of this source compared to some random Finnish universal map book of the whole world, where I guess the entire Welsh speaking area is described as something the size of a palm? —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:29am (EEST) And there is no need to go fishing across the Irish Sea: Irish is still Ireland's national language and first official language, but Irish cities are named after English in the Finnish language Wikipedia.


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The issue doesn't seem to interest language activists because of the difficulty of making the Irish language a policy.


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Or should localities in Northern Ireland be named Irish, so would there be a row over that too?


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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:41am (EEST) I suppose the important thing would be to have the principles written and followed open to ensure their neutrality, based on independent reliable sources, etc. —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 11:48am (EEST) I think it is important, but all the more problematic when we live through the political world.


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—Feathers (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:10pm (EEST) Welsh has two official languages: Welsh and English.


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There is no doubt that Finnish is the main language of Finland, but still other versions of Vikipedia use primarily the Swedish name of several localities in the Finnish Swedish region, and according to someone in this discussion, this is because these municipalities are themselves wished that they would be referred to in other language contexts primarily by a Swedish name.


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Very close to this principle would be what I suggested above, to see on the official website of a municipality in Wales what language name appears first (i.e. in the upper row or written on the left side) in the municipal logo, etc. (Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:06pm (EEST)) From the discussion above, I interpreted (and I would understand) that naming articles on Finnish localities in either language does not circulate to other wikis ao.


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through municipalities, but through the recommendations drawn up jointly by the Finnish and Swedish researchers of Kotus and through the lists of names included in them, where I guess the starting point is that (a) the primacy of the municipality's name in Finnish or Swedish (if there is a name in either language) is decided by the municipality's name in Finnish or Swedish (if there is a name in either language) the basis of language relations, which is again provided for by law, that is, the majority language determines and the number of speakers of the language is obtained from official records.


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Smaller places will then go according to this, if the places have names in either language, and that the name exists in either language and what is the exact form of the name, while it is clear from the lists of place names and databases (where they are also exported to the map location online).


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Such compiled sources might imagine that there are equally in Britain, for example, road map makers. —Urjanhai (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:29pm (EEST) It does not seem very coherent if in some cases we go by the language of the region/place and in some other cases again by the official language of the region/place (primary).


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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If now, in the case of Ireland, it would be neutral to appoint places in English against the country's own language policy, since in most places the language language is English, then why is this principle that if there are several official names, then the language of the inhabitants of the place is determined not to be universally valid?


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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What if it doesn't qualify, then why wouldn't the primary official language of the region/place be a neutral option?


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Ujanairi (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:08pm (EEST) The Dublin webpage gives the Irish format first, as does Cork.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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By the way, the sites are in English.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Also in Wales, the status of Welsh is mainly symbolic and the real power language is English.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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For Finnish, the meaning of the Welsh language is marginal.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:27am (EEST) I did find an Irish version of the site on the Irish capital site: As such, it is a good question whether or not Irish localities could, or should, be used primarily in Irish names. in some cases - in Ireland, too, there are areas where more than 50% of the inhabitants are Irish speaking and where, in fact, signs are even monolingual in Irish.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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On the other hand, large localities such as the capital of a state are a little different because they have been practically already known to Finland by a certain name, in which case it can be difficult to change the practice.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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But it is quite different to talk about localities the size of “fly shitter” from Finland, for which there is no established name practice in Finnish, since almost no Finnish has ever heard the name of that locality in any language in his life.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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In Wales, the vibrancy of Welsh is, by the way, stronger than Irish in Ireland and, as noted, is very regionally distributed, i.e. there are large areas in Wales where the vast majority of the population uses Welsh as their main everyday language (home language, school language, working language...) and in which public administration, for example, the main working and administrative language of a municipality or county is Welsh.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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(Jani Koskiin (debate) 11 August 2018 12:38pm (EEST)) Irish is therefore more endangered than Welsh, but it is of no interest to language activists because it cannot make policy.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Moreover, as far as I know, the Irish-speaking region of Ireland is officially monolingual, which its inhabitants are not at all happy about.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 12:51pm (EEST) What does this inaccurate claim that the Irish situation is of no interest to language activists relate to?


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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What if it were true, in what way would it be relevant to this discussion?


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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By the way, I don't see how your reactions answer my question.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Ujanairi (discussion) 11 August 2018 at 1:10pm (EEST) I fix: not interested enough to start an editing war on the Finnish Wikipedia.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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The world is full of linguistic minorities, and if one place gives in to the slingers, it is about to start belting on all fronts.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 1:19pm (EEST) Now only vague accusations and insults came, and I still have not received a constructive response.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Could we steer the debate in a more serious direction again and discuss rational principles that allow you to conclude what language name is most appropriate?


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Ujanairi (debate) 11 August 2018 at 1:50pm (EEST) Articles on geographical sites will be named in the country's official national language unless there is a Finnish designation.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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There's no more to discuss here.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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—Esamatti1 (debate) 11 August 2018 at 1:55pm (EEST) After all, no foreign language is, in principle, more marginal than another language for Finns, unless it is specifically aimed at marginalising it for ideological reasons.


Question: What was Aarne Orjatsalo's first directorial?

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Or marginality is context-specific, and some language cannot be thought of as marginal, at least in the context of speaking of a locality where that language is an indigenous language and the main language of the local community today.


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The problem with these debates is that people who do not know Welsh or know anything about the Welsh language situation - whether they have ever been to Wales, or at least not in the most Welsh speaking areas - come to say that Welsh is not really spoken anywhere, but it is just” symbolic” language.


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And if anyone believes that for themselves, there is no fact translating such a person's head, such as the fact that in Gwynedd, well over half of the inhabitants speak Welsh, with Welsh as the language of instruction in every school and Welsh as the primary working language of local government.