God, Fear, Love And Truth
Alight, let me understand your question first: Are you saying God was not worthy of worshiping before Jesus died 2000 years ago? If God has ordained death for us, are you saying he should show us how to die first? Does God have to worship someone else before he can ask you to do it, otherwise it’s not godly? Is it God who’s in a better position to tell us what is Godly and what is not or it’s you? If you ask your gardener to cut the grass, would you have to show him how to do it first? Is it the Canadian government who will tell you what laws to follow or it’s you who will tell them whose laws in the country you would like to follow and since the government is not acting as a “leader” but more of a “king” you don’t like to follow them? You don’t like to work for a company that explains the rationale of the company’s SOPs, reward employees who follow them and warns of dire consequences if anyone don’t follow them?
yes agree, my tone could have been better. Apologies.
The notion that God has to be always compassionate, who shows mercy on his people all the time has serious ethical problems. The notion of all-time compassionate God goes against the ethical value of Justice. The attributes of God as mentioned in Quran ( i.e. knowledge, power, providence, justice, wisdom and mercy ) don’t contradict eachother, infact they co-exist under umbrella of Justice. It is against the value of justice, for a God to be compassionate toward a rapist, murderer or someone who became arrogant and denied the message of God out of arrogance, and forgives them when there’s no basis available for forgiveness. The fear of God, from the persepctive of believers is not the kind of fear that you feel after seeing a snake or lion for instance, this is more of a fear of not displeasing one’s God, whom one believes on rational grounds ( for which evidence is available ranging from intuitive to empirical domains: Discussion 1630 ) and after believing that, submits himself to His will. This is the definition of Muslim. Thus, after submitting one’s will to Allah, one naturally tries not to do anything which displeases the God. This is the kind of fear that stems out of love, the same way a child child fears his father despite loving him so much to not displease him. God talks about patience considering the overall scheme of tests and trials that has been instituted in this world. God has promised eternal life for those who achieve purity (‘ tazkiya ‘) in this world while going through tials and tribulations of this world. This world is not created on the principels of ‘ rainbows and unicorns ‘ where God descends to this world in a human body and offers himself as a grand-sacrifice for the sins of the believers. The decision will be based on pure merit and justice, which is both ethical and logical, based on one’s performance in this world. To understand the scheme of tests and trials in detail, you may want to refer to the following resource: Discussion 22229 I am also leaving a couple of Quranic verses talking about mercy of God: وَ اِذَا جَآءَکَ الَّذِیۡنَ یُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ بِاٰیٰتِنَا فَقُلۡ سَلٰمٌ عَلَیۡکُمۡ کَتَبَ رَبُّکُمۡ عَلٰی نَفۡسِہِ الرَّحۡمَۃَ ۙ اَنَّہٗ مَنۡ عَمِلَ مِنۡکُمۡ سُوۡٓءًۢ ابِجَہَالَۃٍ ثُمَّ تَابَ مِنۡۢ بَعۡدِہٖ وَ اَصۡلَحَ فَاَنَّہٗ غَفُوۡرٌ رَّحِیۡمٌ [Contrary to their desires,] when these people who believe in Our revelations come to you, say: “Peace be to you.” Your Lord has made mercy mandatory upon Himself so that if anyone among you commits evil our of foolishness and after this repents and mends his ways, then God is Forgiving and Merciful . (Quran 6:54) قُلْ يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِيْنَ أَسْرَفُوا عَلَى أَنفُسِهِمْ لَا تَقْنَطُوْا مِنْ رَّحْمَةِ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ جَمِيْعًا إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُوْرُ الرَّحِيْمُ. وَأَنِيبُوْا إِلَى رَبِّكُمْ وَأَسْلِمُوْا لَهُ مِنْ قَبْلِ أَن يَأْتِيَكُمُ الْعَذَابُ ثُمَّ لَا تُنصَرُوْنَ. Tell them: My servants, who have been unjust to their souls [by associating partners with Me,] do not lose hope in God’s mercy. God will forgive all the sins. Undoubtedly, He is very Forgiving, Ever-Merciful . (Quran 39:53) Following videos shed light on the concept of attributes of God and fear of God: Please refer to the video below from 53:14 to 55:41 https://youtu.be/_ZguFw2CDAU?t=3194
Umar bhai, Faisal bhai and Wadud bhai. Thank you for your responses. I am pleased to hear from you all. It is good to receive response but I would be more pleased if you answer these questions more intellectually and without a bias towards Islam. Let me start with Faisal bhai. I really liked when you said, ‘I would too if such had actually happened and could be proven beyond reasonable doubt, however, sadly that’s not the case. The basis of such belief is nothing more than conjecture.’ Why you think that’s conjecture? Guess? Throwing stones? When 2.5~3 billion people believe it did happen. Aren’t you only 1.5~1.8 billion? Wouldn’t God want the right view of him be known to majority of people? (Now please don’t start with fastest growing religion stuff – fastest growing is atheism not Islam). So isn’t it conjecture to believe in Zulqarnain story, Sun in muddy pond, throne of Bilquis moving, Mano-Salwa for Jews, Jews turned to literal Apes and Pigs, Stars will be dropped on Earth on Judgement Day (how can so many big things drop to one small thing?) or various other myths in Quran and accept/believe on face value? How can God say – produce a single Surah like this. The last time I checked – God wasn’t sarcastic. Or is he? You know what Ar-Razi (the Scientist of Golden Age of Islam) used to say about this claim of Allah? “You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: “Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one.” Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets… By God, what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: ‘Produce something like it’?” ~ Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi (854 CE – 925 CE) What I am saying is that speak fear all that you want, Oh God – but at least start from Love. Come on! Let me give you an example. You love your kids but you’re also cruel to be kind – right? Your fear is to make him better, not to cause him depression. Not in one place in Quran God says stuff like this: I am not distant and angry, but am the complete expression of love. (John 4:16) And it is my desire to lavish my love on you. (John 3:1) Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand. (James 1:17) My plan for your future has always been filled with hope. (Jeremiah 29:11) Because I love you with an everlasting love. (Jeremiah 31:3) My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore. (Psalm 139:17-18) I will never stop doing good to you. (Jeremiah 32:40) Bhai all I needed from Allah was one Surah like this in the Quran yaar. We can’t live with our wives without expressing love – How can we live our whole lives with a God who’s too shy to express love? Even when you type in Google ‘Love of God in Islam’ you’ll see countless videos on ‘Love between man and woman in Islam’. Type the same with ‘Love of God in Bible’ and see what happens. Kyun bhai? Don’t we need love? Why treat us like sub-humans? That’s how we are raised to believe and continue to tell the fear-mongering stories to our kids and produce the likes of Zardari, Khomeni or Saddam. When will this circus end? You want to stay Muslim because ‘Log kya kaheinge’ or ‘Chalo darr ke so jatay hain’ or ‘Koi chup karao yaar is ko’ Is this a Godly spirit? Even Surah Rahman is full of ‘And what else blessings of God you will deny’ then continues with the fashion of ‘How disbelievers will end up in hell’. That’s really funny. First do the lip service of blessings then tell people about what will be the end of disbelievers. First say Bismillah, then say how to take Jizya from disbelievers – to make them humiliated. First say Al-Wadud, then say how we all are small and dirty for God – as a sperm. You can’t have your cake and eat it too, Sir! God of Islam has not shown his worth yet. Worship comes later. First comes respect, then comes love then comes worship. How can I worship a God who I don’t respect? Who wants to rule me as a King. What example is he setting for me? Should I follow his Sunnah? Be like him too? Islam is more about learning do’s and don’ts. Christianity is more about knowing God. There is a stark difference. See their fruit and see our fruit. See how they treat human beings, animals, love for others, they give you passports, free health care, free school for your kids, Police talks like they are your grandfather – you give them what? Kafils and Rakibs? Work Visas? No entrance in Mecca/Medina? We Muslims are the cause of misery and fight in the whole world. Have you seen a Buddhist burning a Christian Embassy or a Hindu destroying the Christian Churches? Whether it’s Rohinya, Uyghurs, Palestinians, Iraqis, Iranis, Afghanis – whether victim or victimizer. There should be an English Proverb, ‘Where there is a Muslim, there is a Trouble.’ Now it’s turn of Umar bhai. Why you speak more of Justice than Mercy? Why? Isn’t God’s mercy more than his wrath? Speak of justice all you want. But at least start from Mercy. Saying Bismillah isn’t enough. Give us some food before you want us to work hard. You can’t expect us humans to follow a book filled with riddles and puzzles without any sense of motivation. I am not saying there is no fear of God in Christianity. Please read the past posts I posted. It is Christianity that views fear of God important to stay in love of God. But that ‘Fear’ is means to an end ‘Love’. But in Islam we are just told to Fear God (that’s end in itself). Imagine dying to a God who’s never pleased. You wished you never die 😛 Five times prayer create guilt if not prayed (on time). Rituals screws us day and night. Wouldn’t it be much better for God to tell us to perform rituals only when they come from your heart? What use is prayer that doesn’t come from heart but is just a quick half-assed acrobat? Why this compulsion (There’s no compulsion in religion – Wow!). Forget about compulsion to leave Islam or not. There is compulsion in the very core of this religion, Sir! With Islam everything is so convenient. Say there is no compulsion in religion and take jizya or kill blashphemers/infidels/apostates. Say God loves you and then gives a list of do’s and don’ts that don’t solve any real problems in this extremely fast paced and intellectual life. Say don’t put your heart in this life and marry as many as four wives or use Islam for your benefits. Islam can only be used – it can never be followed. Not a single nation on the face of the Earth follows Shariah fully. It is simply not humane enough. Cut the hands of thieves Sir! Even that of a kid who stole a piece of bread to save his mother. Prepare 4 witnesses to prove rape Sir! Because of course it is such a great site to see a women being raped. If you’re going to say women used to accuse innocent men etc. Why give men more authority in cases of rape. Can’t men also lie about rape? Don’t we have DNA tests these days. Only a careless God who doesn’t know future would allow such a law. Laws should be open – like they are in Bible. I went through the videos you posted Umar bhai. They were terrific. However, Ghamidi Sahb mentions a type of fear in religion. But he didn’t talk about love of God in it. Khair hoga toh boleinge na. Never mind! Bhai baat simple hai. Love and Truth are pairs. Just like Humility and Confidence, Patience and Gratitude, Love and Fear, Hope and Repentance etc. Bhai but emphasis Fear, Repentance, Patience aur Humility pe kyun hai sara? Love tail lene gaya? Yin/Yang pairs of God are – Rahman (Motherly Love) and Raheem (Fatherly Love). One love is ‘I love you unconditionally’ and the other is ‘I love you if you do this or that’. Where is the Rahman (Motherly Love) in Quran? – Where is that unconditional Love to start with – as there is in the Bible? “Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.” Corinthians 13:4 to 7 God doesn’t love rapist or murderer. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t loves him as much as to take him back to become without sin or cause things that can reconcile him like asking for pardon from murderer’s family or taking punishment. Isn’t that also what Quran preaches? That in one Hadith God said that if unbelievers know how much I love them – their bones would burst (idhar bhi dehshat gardi hi hai waisay God sahb ki – love ko bhi bones burst karnay se tashbeeh de rahay hain janab). The problem is – Islamic idea of God is counter-productive to create a good human from heart. I have tried the mental gymnastics many times – it doesn’t work. It’s all in the minds, nothing in the hearts. Have you seen – How apart from Ghamidi Sahb all other Mullahs talk? Allah said in the Quran I don’t like the bray of the donkey and that’s exactly how they talk. They shout! Where is this aggression coming from – Have you ever wondered? From a God who doesn’t like painting, music, art, dance, sculptures, humor, joy, fun. My God is rather creative and likes creativity in me. My God is not the one who wants me to just wait to die and call this world a fly’s feather. Without this world – I would have to known my true God. How can this world be bad? Chalo Nuff said. Ball in all your courts. Wadud bhai you will also get a response when I think you are starting to put paragraphs nicely or have intellectual replies that make sense. First cleanse your mind from prejudices and Muslim way of thinking about Christians. To be fair – Read from Christians what they believe – not Muslims. Just as you would learn how to fly a plane from aeronautical engineer and not a paan wala.