Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1694834265083.pdf (Guyana)
224'7 Members Present LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Papers Lai<l :�2-is f The ffon.

A. G. King (Demerara . '

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL River).

� The Hon.

J. W. Jackson, O.B.E.

Fricla11, 8th February, 1946.

(Nominated).

The Hon.

A. M. Edun (1'-ion:iinated).

The Hon.

T. T. Thompson (Nomi.= nated).

The Council · met at 2 p.m., His The Hon.

F. J. Seaford, C.B.E.

the Governor, "Sir Gordon ·( Georgeto,vn N o_rth).

Excellency Let.hem, Chair.

K.C.M.G., President, in the The Clerk read prayers.
PRESENT: Minutes of the meeting of 111e 1.

'he President, the Governo,r, Sir Gordon James Leth cm, K.C.M.G.

His Exceller.cy Council held on Thursday, ary, 1946, as printed were taken as read and confirmed.

.. 7th Febru­ and circulated, The Hon.

the Colonial Secretary, Mr. W. L. Heape, C.M.G.

ANNOUNCEMENT.

The Hon.

the Attorney-General (Acting), Mr. F. W. Holder- The Hon.

the Colonial Treasurer, Mr. E. F. Mc David, C.B.E.

The PRESIDENT: W:th regard BUSINESS OF THE COUNCCL.

The Hon.
The Hon.

C. V. Wight (Western Essequibo).

The Hon.

I-I.

N. Critchlow (�omi­ nated).

The Hon.

,T. B. Singh, 0.l:].E.

(Dem�rara-Essequibo).

The I-Ion.

F. Dias, O.B.E.

(J\'omi­ t�ated).

Secretary today, the who is to move the to the public business Colonial motion with regard to the duty on ·skimmed milk has asked me to suggest that we take that motion, if possible, as the fir;;t piece of b_usiness.

It is the second item on the 0i'der of the Day.

The first item is the Rice Board Bill.


If l\'!emb1�rs Marketing we will dispose of the are agreeable motion dealing with the uuty on skimmed milk and take wlmtever action is neces,;ary.

The Hon.

M. B. G. Austin, 0.B.E.

(Nominated).

PAPERS LAID.

The Hon.

J. Gonsalves, 0.B.E.

(Georgetown South).

The Hon.

Peer Bacchus ("Western Berbice).

The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Mr. Heape) laid on the table the documents:- following Re110rt of the Commissfone,rs of Cur­ rency for the year 1944.

The Hon.
The Hon.

C. R. Jacob (Nor'Eh­ Report of the R,egistrar of Friendly W estern District).

Societies for 1945.

� on po,w<lers prep.a.red from 2240 Reduc.tion of Duty 8 FEBRUARY; 1946.

_.Slcimmea Mille 2250 ORDER OF THE DAY, REDUCTION OF DUTY ON SKIMMED MILK.
The Council resumed the debate on the following- Secretary:- motion by tht Colonial That, with reference to Governor's M ess,age No, 15 dated the, 17th of Jf.l,n­ uary, 1946, this Council introduction a Bill to ame·n<l Ordinance tion of the d'Uty on skimmed milk.

aµproves in Legislative 1935, to p-rovide for a reduc­ the Customs Duties Council ofi of the a rejected I have been trying to find , in 1935.

What is the this motion at milk.

This Legislature similar proposal reason for bringi'ng this time?
out but it is almost impossible for me to think of a reason.

Certain sug­ gestions have been made as to the reason but I am not worrying about them.

All I wish to say is that I find it difficult protective milk.

In Your Excellency's is stated: to our cow's Message it duty in relation .., at this time to remove this The PRESIDENT: I think the hon.

Member for North-Western District yesterday's proceedings.
was speaking at the close c,f Looking at the and as it i-,tands disappointed I find that evapor2,tetl milk which in the opinion Mr. JACOB: The hon.

Mover of this motion has made ve1·y few to the position references at present.

I was a little that he did not give us some more details of the 1935 Ordinance.

Ordinance powdered of the Government prepared entirely duty free under tial Tariff while under the Genr.r:il Tariff the duty is 50 cent;, per 100 lbs.
On milk prepared wholly or · in part from skimmed milk the ·duty is $10 per 100 lbs.

under the Preferential Tariff and $30 under the General Tariff.

On condensed wholly or in part from skimmed milk from whole milk, is milk pr.epare<l Analyst has been the Briti,;h Preferen­ ·the duty is $10 per 100 lb3.

l'reforcn­ In the ca"'e of conde11sed tial Tariff and $30 per 100 lbs.

Genera.I Tariff.
Genera.I Tariff.

milk prepared from who](' milk the duty i'l 5%' under the Prefei·ential Ta;-iff 15 % , as and under the General Tariff fixed by Ordinance 25 of 1941.

The object of this motion is to of 10 l'emove the preferential duty and to rents per lb.

on skimmed milk sur­ fldmit it duty free.


I am a little at this pri,s-ed that Government shoul.d time introduce the preferential this motion to 1·emove duty on s�im.rned "Su.b'sequently, the Secretary of and pO'Wdered on evaporated that this Ordinance on the Customs 1944, Ordinance, recluced from whole milk dulies were still State in commenting Duties (Amendment) Oibserve<l the duti-es milk, prepared erutirely but that prohibitive maintained skimmed milk.

The Secretary of State went on to say that.


in vtiew of th.e value of sldmmed milk high nutritive and especially as the supply of lochl milk in suf­ might not always be maintained ficient to meet the needs of the quantity whole population, skimmed l!lilk powders might be removed at least to the level of the duties on other kinds of the prohibitive milk powders."
imported duty on I do not think that the Secretary in the recent broadc�•.st I say so because I dis­ serious by the School Medical and if I can find such serious in a statement of State was informed of the correct facts in this Colony when he arrived at this decision.

have been able to discover crepancies Dr. Nicholson, Officer, by the discrepancies Medical Officer I am bound to come to the conclusion that the matter was not properly considered.
to touch on Dr. Nicholson's just yet; I just want to say that it would be.

most unwise to remove thii:; prohibitive skimmed milk.

I have often heard hon.

Members say that we should import as little as there is ,:o great a. shortage and other essentials other parts of t.he world.
If, skimmed vnhie milk is of such high nutritive why .s·hould we be so anxious to import it at thjs t_ime when we Are at this time duty on I am not going in Europe and of food statement l as possible, particularly 2251 Reduction of Duty LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL -Skirmne<l M illc 2252 of foad in the United told there is a great shortage and other essentials KinJ?

;d�m and other European coun­ tries?


I do not know where this skimmed milk i$ going to come from but I say it is most unwise to bring forward such a proposition in this Colony at this stage. "

I und,erstood the hon.

Mover to in certain at the present parts of this Colony value, should be import­ European countries that skimmed milk, now say is of such say that the cost of this skimmed milk would be 5½ cents per lb.--miD{ that has no butter fat content.
At present one can buy milk with butter fat content at G, 6 and 7 cents pei· lb., but it is suggested which the experts high nutritive ed into this Colony when there are places tn which it can be sent far more conveniently-the which are short of food.

We must to those people who are be generous in those parts of the world, starving and I say that this Legislature would be acting most unwisely time in removfng this duty.

We have in other things.

been most generous are not .


importing the quantities butter, cheese, fat;; · and substi- tutes that this Colo11y requires.

We are told ' that Canada has allotted of butter and other things, but it would appear that that countr:v has so much of this i-kimmed milk (I take it that it will come from Canada or the United States) th�t it can afford to supply us.

I say that the time is This i,:; not the most inopportune.
time to rob the O starving people in other countrie;:; and bring it into this country ,vherc we can do better.

Whether the price will be 5½ cents per lb.

to the consumer I do not know.

Let u:: assume that it will be so.

I say that it i�; mo,-t unwise to bring in skimmed mil'lc when we can get fresh milk in this country at 5, 6 and 7 cents per pint.
us a certain quantity of thif' vahable nrticle We of That is one of the main reason" duty on imported why this prohibitive r from the Another Perhaps· Govern­ is that we must improve our methods in l understanr!

that in there has been oe is going milk should not be removed.

l'eason milk supply and dairying this country.

Essequibo b be set up a ghee making plant.

What will be done with the residue after the fat is extracted milk in Essequibo?

ment is going to throw it away.


Somt:.> steps should be taken to put that residue in some form so as to avoid milk.

I do not importing skimmed past, !ike to refer to the very distant but at times it becomes necessary.

Of course r;overnment the re�ponsibility are stated and when certain presented.

I have often heard th!

: reply: •'Oh · no, that was not in my· time; I do not know anything it.''
records bag from the Daily Argosy of ,Tune 9, 1935, with the following will not assume things when certain facts are and I found a clipping at some of my in my I have been looking headlines:- about "Milk for Government Contracts''­ Use of Local to Urge Greater "Chamber Artide"-''O:ruel Thl'own Away"-"Retail Price Twelve cents Per Gallon"-"Wider Scope For Local Merchants Generally."

to Import When of State has stated that it At.


my instigati,m and Mahaica at 10 l.!entr; the Chamber of of the question Commerce considered making greater use of fresh milk in thii-Colony when milk was being sold at Mahaicony per gallon, and most of it was bei11g thrown away.

We have been told that the Secretary may not always be poss,ible to maintain an adequate supply of Jocal milk.

What justification believing we were throwing ties of fresh milk in this Colony.
was then being sold at less than 2 cents per pint, and at Mahaica, cony and in Essequibo thrown away, yet 10 years later the of State says,, on advice no Secretary that the doubt from this Government, supply of local milk might not alw:1y;; be maintained have we got for that that is .true?

In 19i5 away large quanti­ 'Milk in sufficient it was being quantity Malrni­ to 2258 Reduction of Duty 8 FERRUARY, 1941,.
-Slr.imrnerl Mille 2251 Veterinary ') pre,;ented of Agriculture a report against milk for the l0t:al of dairy products fac­ The other members of the were the hon.

Member for Chairman.

Committee de Aguiar), Central Demerara (Mr. one or two other Members of this and the Government Council, tl1atJ Surgeon.

Like most Committee,s Committee the erection tories.
The Director and the Government Veterinary opposed to the geon were entirely proposition British had large quantities meet the needs of the whole population.

Perhaps the methods that we used in keeping the area between Mahaica an,l flooded during the Abary continually the last 10 or 15 years might still be is why we will not have used, and that large flocks of cattle to give us mi.Ii<.

_Perhaps some other methods would be used which would result in our not having sufficient Government cught to popuiatlon.
milk from Essequibo to transport where and other districts Georgetown the supply is short.

We have i:hc experts; Mr. C. V. WIGHT: I do not present; culture he has come especially know if the hon.

Member [ think some effort should be made to on which he and I sat.

to a Committee bring milk from those parts of the He 1ias omitted to mention my nanw, Colony where there is a surplus.

whether wilfully or otherwise 10 years ago we were throwing milk know.
I know that he and I wrote away and f<el!ing minority per pint, in another few year.3, if factories proper steps are taken, we ought to be not said that.

able to obtain milk pint �nd have an adequate whole population reports should be set up, but he has of Agri-.

I do not know whethee at 3 or 4 cents per supply for the Mr. JACOB: Perhaps the hon.

Guiana did nothing when we and the result was that at less than 2 cents I see the Director for this purpose.

of the Colony.
of the Colony.

suggesting I do not that those Sur­ If is referring of milk available.

In 1938, · when I went to England, in milk in this Guiana :.mrl in this Colony wag milk from Holland a.t My firm was then import­ the milk situation just as bad as it is today.

I wrot<.)

a large firm of milk manufactm·ers Holland and went over there to see be done as regards the what could of condensed manufacture Colony.

I spent some time there and ·I went over one of the largest milk factories.
ing condensed British 10/-per case c.i.:!'.

and it was being <,old in this Trinidad, Co1onr at 9 and 10 cents per tin.

Today the price i::; double that figure in some places.

After seeing how condensed tured, I returned introduced that a Committee the question dairy products The motion was accepted ly and a Committee fortunately tor of Agricl.llh1re was set up, but or unfortunately the Di1·r0c­ w�s appo�nted one or more in this Colony.
unanimous­ a motion in this Cocrncil milk was being manufac­ be set up to consider of estabiishing to the Colony and factories should the question, Member wanted me to say that he was with me.

I have not got in agreement I did not bother to look it the report; up.

I stated then that factories , and the hon.

be set up in E!

'<sequibo m,e.

The fact is Member supported that Government refused to do any­ thing.

At the same time Jamaica was considering lished one or more factories.
certain to the Committee doing I was told that we mu;;t look after our own business The result is that we have no factory here.

The poRition now that we have to import huge qu::m­ milk and remove tities of condensed protective varying quality.

duties on imported what Jamaica was has become so l)atl as in the past.

and has estab­ of one, and when I mentioned milk of I am I am not going tiJ say that Dr. Platt does not know hi,-busi nes<i.

· l would not go as far a!


'< that, but I am doubtful will be of vahie to the people of this Colony and will serve the purpose for which it is to be brought in.

I !lave whether this skimmed •.nilk 2255 Recluction of Duty LEc1sLATivE couuci..L -Slcim11wl Mille 225G ·which We want large qiw.n­ standard.
milk of not less to our importing objection tities of conden,:;ecl than 8% of butter fat content, i;; the Government fat in our milk, and it is necessary to import as much milk a� possible so long as there is an acute shortage.

,ve want some of the tinned milk for the interior, greatly the position he says that even if we doubled or trebled our production would not be able After writing Dr. Nicholson of milk we to meet the demand.
a lot about skimmed milk goes on to say: but I say that Dr. Nicholson exaggerated whe.a ') in this matter.

matters in those ideas, and that I was ·J-:.ry whecher he could do anything taken a lot of trouble Dr. Platt spoke to us on several -milk, yeast, and other things.

1 interviewed him at the Park Hotel and told him that I did not believe new-fangled doubtful as regards yeast.

He told u,; lhat we could put yeast in your bread, but the whole thing was so impractical.
have not seen any proposal about that yet.

During the discussion Nicholson an expert as regards the health school children.

impressed not impressed present time.

read the Supplement B.P.I.

dated 2nd February, which there is an article he:.ided ''Skim Mille is Cheap and Good For You'' (By Dr. C. C. Nicholson, Medical Officer)·• began: Dr. came in and he said he was of I was not Frankly, by either of them.

I am by Dr. Nicholson at the I am sorry to say it.


I issued by the 1946, in The article _ScJ1orl I "Ifotter fat which is prepared from we vitamins, A and D. is left.

l:::ack milk fats also contains None of these two vitamins in the skimmed milk.
Fortunately, in Bn•tish Guiana do not need the fat in milk for our local nutritional needs, for in my recent surveys there was not a sing.le home whose ci,ietary fhortage very ample because the poor,zst at least two to of five were pu1,chasing three and a half p,:nts of Fryol per \v1eek."

of fat.

In fact, fat in ciiets was showetl a familie� "Milk is a key foodstuff.

Since ii is cne of the best of all foods its use in liberal quantities is most desirable.''

right there, and I correct.


But we are The doctor is think every sensible know that that is talking about milk; we are not talking about milk from which all the buttel' fat has been extractecl.

ing about good wholesome from ,healthy went further We are talk­ co,v·s milk cattle.
Dr. Nichobon to state: ''I am going to suggest that one of reason, for this _gross shorlagc ,is the fact that peo­ the chief in our milk supplies ple here, as they are the worlrl over, are becoming increasingly aware of the importance .1nd it is probable that even if we were to double up or even treble up on our milk production, supply vvill fail to meet demand."

of milk in the dietary, vVhere Dr. Nicholson got that gallons, and taking Dr. statement I do not claim from only Heaven knows.
of Fryol last year was approxi­ Officer figures.

and his figure!'!

for families I have found out who is here The pro­ information I know the position milk, and a few things.

to know everything.

from the Publicity and I have official duction mately 205,000 Nicholson's it.

is absolutely impos,sible of five to obtain even 21 pints of Fryol per week.

Those are the experts we have advising men-local who will not go into things properly.

Sometimes late or too lazy to go into things prnperly.
Dr. Nicholson advising who has advi,-ed that the people of British a lot of fat to live on.

In fact they have too much fat and they wimt other thing� in their diet, therefon� skimmed milk would be a useful thing.

that world famous scientist they are unable to calcu­ people I am sorry to say-­ us; those are the gentle­ the Secretary of '.Jtate Guiana have has been What utter non,;ense is that?

1 man, not an expert.

If am a practical we doubled our milk supply we woul<l more than meet the demand.
Dr. Nicholson goes on to say that the obvious thing is importation.

We arc importing large quantities.

I have no individual wo!lld regarding Fryol, 2257 Reduction of buty 8 FEilRUARY, i946.
.,.�Ski-mmed Miik 225� When expe-rts, they are, base false premises, ,however their calculations what can we expect'/ WQrid-lfarned on Here we have Dr. Nicholson's the figures people living of fats, and when of the poorest quantity statement on a certain you calculate you get five times more than the production of the which he says is consumed.

article trust these figures are convincin� enough to cancel this whole businP,1,�1 and leave us as we should.
l am submitting You cannot of oil from that pro­ issued by the B.P.L is wrong and that it means ·'oil''.

I that is most impracticable.

produce lJ mill.ion coconuts duces F,ryol.

0 quantity .

I have the was imported record here.

In 1945 there· was imported and fro,m the factory of soya bean oil.

191 gallons gallons It is true that a certain The PRESIDENT: Let us get on with milk!

The COLONIAL TREASURER: I in the hon.

Member's but he has not put it ve,ry cleady.


am very interested point, Does he no,t think it fai,r to assume 'that Dr. ·Nicholson the crude co.conut largely p·eople7· took into account oil which is very used by the vast majority cf given him are correct; if reputation.

that.

If he is an to find out whether he would the facts other so,-called facts and figures a few days and \experts here and make pro­ Ur: .
I say I consider Mr. JACOB: If Your Excellen,:>y to throw the who;e motion promises I would sit down, but I can­ overboard, not as a Member o;f this Council allow experts-and repu­ of doubtful experts tation too-to come into, this Colrmy and after spending meeting getting nouncements.

Platt an expert of doubtful Let me emphasize expert of good reputation endeavour and figures he does not check them and uses them, then I say he is an expert of doubtful reputation.
on tho::-e as he has to base his reasoning ha;-; facts.

Surely if Dr. Nichol.son given such ·wrong information :,3 regards sumption cannot be correct.

worry with the other statements which wrong.

I have given are obviously proofs why this B.P.L ·two convincing with Dr. Nicholson's pamphlet state­ I suggest ment should be withdrawn.
·co the Publicit y Officer to withdraw this pamphlet, it has created because wronig impression will be and probably there on record to create a wrong impression this thing should be withdrawn.

the supply of oil and the con-­ findings the expert's at a later stage.

I thini, He must verify the facts I am not going to of o,il, a I am not attempting to, waste the time of this Co,uncil importance.
great impo,rtance I think it is a matter of concernin on a matter of no g not only no doubt and production, things want to say convincing It is prepos­ that.

in th.is coco.nuts gallons 1,187,500 to suggest did not say that.

When finan­ Mr. JACOB: Qovernm.ent's cial expert is an expert on several mat­ ters.

I was coming to that.

But is this expert on-rice, an expert cultivation on coconut copra, etc., going to tell this Co,uneil that we have .s-ufficient Colony to, manufacture of oil?

What nonsense!
What nonsense!

Mr. Treasurer, terous.

Dr. Nicholson experts and to write them, they must be specific­ ally clear in what they write otherwise yo,u have to discredit That is what I have been preaching especially have experts to-who of this Council ge·c up and make all kinds of w1ict state­ ments and then accuse me of making wild· statements figures from Government a mistake there.

a!

Treasure this Council coconut the word "Fryol'' to suggest that not only ·.tryol oil is used.
Let us admit that Here we have the 1hon.

the Co-Ioni­ though · I always quote figures for the last five years.

I may make here and in this pamphlet I am refer,ring their whole stcry.

and g1vmg wroug r attempting in quoting records.

to but figur�s here, \,\7 e in this Colony-Membe-rs L .

2259 .tleduction of Vutu LEGlSLATIV);l COIJNCit.

�Skininiecl MiU., 22l1U " 1 do not and tn\� wrong to attempt not only the health wnere the commerc1al 1t does :,eem �o bring this w,1en milk 11:­ partH.
:ularly the residue is tne health of babies, Ul C!JlJQl't:!11 but the health c,f the whole 1 uncleratand-1 popu1at1on.

KlJUW 1f 1t is true-that L1:seu 111 tne u .

;::u�.

vutter fat extractea, given w the pigs; it is not used except 11!

certain pari:s men seep m anct malce something out of Jt.

1 ao not know what commercial mterest 1s behind this proposition.

natl no time to enquire.


grossly milk mto this Colony when the product trom which this milk will be manu­ for the is in most cases used ractm:ect feeding of pigs and animals.

Maybe ammal feed is good for human con­ sumption.

the people ot Probably British where we are starving, tive and cannot do anything selves.

where we must go hat jn hand and beg for this thing for the population.

far as I am concerned, this Council this motion.


If I happen to be here when the Bill comes up, should this I shall oppose it again motion be passed, and again is not put on our Statute have no initia­ for our­ So as :i.

Member of Guiana have reached that We have reached the stage oppose I shall strenuously until this iniquitous measure Books.
stage statement that two and a half I referred have to eat before leaving quantity and at certain I cannot take my seat without to an actual fact in my con­ this matter to some time districts and and that he .

District ago I was there could not oil or fat of any kind in any refening stituency.

the Education Committee ago.


I suggest that Dr. Nichoboi1 should go to the country things, find out certain should go to the North-Western When I was there six montlls told that the children get butter, appreciable times no fat at all.

How does that fit in with Dr. Nicholson's the poorest family buys pint,; of oil per week?

·I was told: •· Maybe tears will come out of your eyes when you see what some of the children ·home for school in the morning and when they return home in 'ilhe after­ noon.
They have to eat food without r,ny kind of meat, fish or fat.''

I stated Advisory Com­ this on the Education the _ Third mittee.

l\'ly hon.

friend, Nominated Member and, I think, the hon.

the Fourth Nominated Member, who are members of that Committee.

c::tn bear me out.

I think Dr. Nicholson should be very careful statements.

probably careful when he attempts statements them or have them published the Publicity Officer.

the circumstances I considei· not be carried.


we are going and try to improve tbe local milk industry so as to obtain sufficient import skimmed milk of doubtful quality.

that this motion shoulr,l Let Ui:i • go on as He must be very to make into consideration, of this kind or to write to export rather than to He is a local man and is learning.
when making Taking al.I by prohibitive I think, I have said enough to get support but this motion, in Ordinance, has set up certain to vote against this of Members of I do not think the Gov­ and not do what this Coun­ to do five years ago.

This the majority this Council.

ernment will withdraw I have said enough to get hon.

Members of this Council proposition cil refused Council tariffs embodied 35 of 1939, and unless for very good rea,-ons should not tc, undo what it did five or six years ago.
If it is thought that this skimmed milk is such a wonderful huge proposition, and sub­ bring it in as an experiment it.

Perhaps the best way is to sidize let it be circulated parts of the Colony where fresh milk and con­ densed milk are not available.

proposition, let Government this Council in certain attempt such a.

No.

· Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: T rise also I am opposing to oppose this motion.

it on the same grounds as when: it was opposed in 1939, viz-:-its compi:;tition.
with the local milk indust;-y low fat content.

Further there is a third rea.,;on-the bringing milk duty free will completely frustrate the controlling in of thill and its of milk in this City and I j '2261 Reduction of Duty s FEBRUARY, i94.6.

--Ski-1Mnetl Milk, 2aG2 V.L \JU ,t:1'l1ffie11t.

l There are certain times and I disagree with the reasons to meet the demands, where it districts will be that milk control even in the country is anticipated extended.

given by the hon.
given by the hon.

Mover of the motion that the survey has disclosed that we are a long way off in meeting local requirement�.

when the supply falls and there is not but sufficient there are other times when the produc­ tion is more than the r-�quirements also at some times the supply meets the requirements.
of this Government quantity to the Controller meet the requirements there are short supplies, have seen the wisdom of this motion; but to import this milk free of duty to compete throughout the local product, any Member can conscientiously sup­ port a motion of this kind for the of milk or any either arti­ importation cle to compete to any extent with the local article.
If it was the idea to import a certain the Colony with I do not think, sir, of Milk to be used to at such times as of this milk and hand it over I could We were endeavouring and are to bring up our not in one item only, to still endeavouring short supplies, But here is a our full requirements.

that plan upon step that will frustrate I do not which we have embarj{ed.

has looked upon it know if Government in that light.
If it has, then it has of fallen short in the prope1· its wisdom in the protection industry.

anything motion save that, as it always happens, the patient when the experts suffers.

exercise of the local I do not think I need say more in opposition disagree to this this There Dr. SINGH: I am supporting measure.

motion as a temporary is no doubt that skimmed milk.

will be for fresh milk in the best substitute short­ our present crisis age of fresh milk.
What is feared is that when skimmed milk is imp orted of the people after ad lib.

the tendency acquiring a taste for skimmed milk of an extreme it form and can be easily will prefer it to whole milk, because is in powdered mixed and administered likes.

What l am sugge:;tmg as the local milk we should devise some process of diminishing milk.

I think that will meet the crisis.

in any form 011e b that this supply of skimmed supply impr,>ves 8 a ualancecl lVIr.
EDUN: i n,ust truly confess l.ne 1nconsis­ 111 "L1tt: periot1 jJv,,.

:y that 11s ly throughout There was so much fuss it, tantf m sup­ XeL nere 1 aw the war in a matter ot tu go against poncy wnich can-iecl of milk at a certain I felt that the Jaw of supply to control milk.

I ca,_.

very well, sir, th?..t I opposea that 1 cto nui; l:umvreuenu tenc1es have been hearrng 01 1ate X our l!

;xcel- own views regarctmg 1cncy's economy and protective port 01 1oca1 uiuu�u-ies.
seeing an attempt well-considered so ..,successful years.

My first reaction this kma is to as1c ··.Has milk contro1 failed?"

attempting remember the control because Bu1, itself.

and demand would rectify effon in this motion I see a determined to break away from a policy which Yout· has b,een advocating.

Whal, Excellency is the use preaching-about balanced!

economy when we can always come to, this Legislature way?
I done in a practical already remember very well indeed that thEI local ,suppliers prosecuted milk which is defi­ fines for supplying cient in fat.

No one in this Council can are dispute being inflicted because sumers, to perpetuate that is endeavouring wrong.

Wiil those who may sell this skimmed milk to consumers 1:o a penalty ernment seriously tion.

that fact.

Heavy penalties on them by the Courts of milk have been and made to pay heavy in the Courts?
I ask Gov­ to examine they sell skimmed milk to con­ and here it is this Government and undo what we have be liable the situa­ I now come to this wonderful idea very well of the expert.

I remember 2263 Reclnction of buty i,,EGiSLA'J.


'iVE CotiNclt -----Skimmed Mitk 22M • of self-sufficiency in circum­ experts cto change their opinions and he said: producers of milk in this Col­ l think this question in fat is not so serious as m view of cercain of his That is the essence in my However, of indeed that I questioned Dr. Platt as to wnether he would not change his opimon w 1 thin a few years, •·Well periodically stances.''

reply to my question.


own opin10n, deficiency this bigger problem milk, but it appears to me that because .

certain people are · the r,rincipal ony this mea:;ure is being adopted in I hate order to retard their progress.

to think that this is an attempt to do such a thing.

I do not want even to suggest that some importer, or merchant ines:;.
I remember, cle in a magazine styled "Life and on Food and was very much Health'' with the reference impressed made to cf food known as ''Whole an article which has created quite a craze in the U.S.A.

Whole milk is an article of diet which is extensively used in the Bal­ kans.
I would suggest that that article as I am sure be read by Dr. Nicholson, that if he does so he would change his opinion as regards giving the people skimmed milk in order to cope with the malnutrition Dr. Nicholson is interested sir, reading reported himself or agent in this .,;.>us­ an arti­ Milk'' "Skimmed milk is a milk from which the cream or fatty part of the milk has been taken out to make 'butter."

That is in a senfSe what he says.


What Is it because at the value of their express­ Yet if we are to take are the circumstances which Govern­ ment has found to make it bring this measure to the fore-front?

of malnutrition?

the experts ion we have the statement to us in this Council lVIember:-; of this Council no serious condition among the children ony.
I. agree with him because own observation children at a meeting with in this Col­ that there is in su'ch a poor state of health of Dr. Platt to be proud and per:;;istently.

If in tile and blunders then those be recti­ shclllld What should be clone as I have seen in other parts of the That is something \vorld.
about and, therefore, if there is no ser­ ious condition here why of malnutrition should we think of importing skimmed milk for the· sale of which this Govern­ heavy penal­ ment has been inflicting ties on people?

I am oppc,sed to this motion because I feel if Government has a policy that policy must be follow� ed consistently there are mistakes out of that policy, carrying mistakes and blunders fied by experience.
is this: We should endeavour production of fresh milk increased, that should be done by way of subsidy to the producers rather than by the importation of' a milk of doubtful qual­ it.y which, r am sure, would not be to the benefit of this Colony.

With those observations I definitely I want this Government ent in its policy, ldea of balanced lowed.
oppose this motion because to be consist­ when this especially economy is to be fol­ of the health of the people to see the and Mr. THOMPSON: I rise wholeheart­ of patientl speakers went along.

My I have been-listening y is that we have before the puts forward.

I am thinking edly to support the motion before the Council.

as the various observation Council the question of a shortage milk.
That, ·I think, is what the motion clearly too, sir, that in these d�ys when we are anxious we may well save the large sums that are being paid in making use of thP experts we as I have found have in this countrr, that in the hon.

Member for North­ Western District we have an expert on Why then do every possible we worry to the country find an expert?

It is somewhat alarm­ ing.

subject.

to go outside our b'udget, to balance of malnutrition from my I have not seen our of correction?

Government.
Government.

budget balances.

Mr. JACOB: May I rise to a point I am not paid by this I do not know how the as existing here.

states: �io5 Reduction oJ buty $ i. "'

EBRUARY, 1946.

-Skimmed MiUc 226u Mr. THOMPSON: Even gratuitousl Mr. C. V. WIGHT: The hon.

y He leaves it 1 am puzzled everything up.

that is brought heal thyself."

of food is concern­ will meet our case, I think, \Ye can have hi:; services.

to think the hon.
to think the hon.

Member for North­ in such an alarmia6 Western District state or affairs in so far as the lack quality of nutritive ed can sit here and make no effort to improve that condition.

alone and comes to this Council and criticizes My idea is "Physician The proposal very admirably.

I find in the rural areas that often there is a shortage milk.

The hon.

Member made the point that with improved drainage and irri­ gation the people have taken to othu avenues of employment.
most of the land used for keeping rice, and .

cattle has been put u11der consequently ing season has started are shifted .

ple have no time to get a satisfactory collection sl1ortage with the importation our condition will erably.

of milk.
of milk.

There is definitely of milk to be expected, as soon a); the rice plant- of this substitute all the animals away and the peo- H is because be improved a and further their of Chapter unless it is up Member, Mr. Edun, ha:; that persons have in the City for selling Nominated made the statement beeil prosecuted ::;kimmed milk.

That is• not correct.


6 of the Sale oi Food · and Sevtion 102, prou D1 ugs Ordinance, hibits the sale to the prejudice of the purchaser of any article to the ::;tandard there is a provision dule setting Therefore marked "Skim­ milk if it was legibly knew that med milk'' he was buying skimmed milk.

There­ fore it i8 incorrect were skimming they sold tc prosecution.

of purity required, in the First Sche­ is.

it.


If milk and selling it as milk they would be liable out what that standard a person could and the purchaser to say that people sell skimmed :rnrl Mr. EDUN: Would the hon.

Member say that milk vendors been prosecuted milk deficient in fat?

and fined for selling have not Mr. WIGHT: That is an entirely thing.

You cannot sell any consid­ which does required to the .

Dr. Nicholson milk or otherwise, set out in the to the Ordinance.
were fined because different article, r.ot come up to the standard Schedule vendors water to the milk and were selling milk deficient standard The milk they added has been doing very woi·k.

He has visited the where I live and we have noth­ in its infancy, by the Ordinance the supply of milk, it about.

A project in fat according amount of.

commissHm that there is a shortage successful district ing to complain should not be criticizeu and because the importation of skimmed milk will rob the hon.
Mem­ ber of a certain i;; no reason why he should oppose its entry into the country.

that I consider a very narrow view to take.

I think the importation will help us considerably.

Coast of Berbice of milk.

very much from a shortage During the rice planting season we cannot get milk because have no time to collect ing time there is also a definite age of milk.

Therefore I am of th<> of this opinion that the importation substitute a long way.

I si1pport heartedly.

1 to of milk in to the Board.


areas of in certain and between 1,200 and As regards is indisputable in the City.

As -Chairman .

!oint Control about to report to Governmen';, c-rave your indulgence, the question the City as reported Milk is produced the Colony, 2,800 gallons are brought into but we have found that the City daily, of milk :1re required 2,500 gallons That quantity of in Georgetown daily.
milk is only ayailable for about two months of the year, so that for 10 months of the year the demand for milk exceeds .

of this skimmed milk On the West the people it.

At harvest­ would help the situation we :;uffer sometimes Board which is now of the shortage the motion whole­ To overcome sir, to refei· the supply.

of the lVIilk short­ 22S7 Reduction of .buty LEGiSLATiVE COUNCIL.

-Skimmed Milk 2Ms .. of a mechanical that it is recommende{l should be milk should be thiis.
shortage condensed or skimmed imported into the Co)ony, and that the skimmed milk po,wder reconstituted by means 'mixer so as to produce · liquid milk, which is to be kept sepa,rate and sold as i-econ,stituted milk.

The sale ol' that milk would be under the control Board because it would cult and dangerous to allow the 11owdered ately by everybody.
be very "diffi­ of the milk to be sold indiscrimin­ is doubted by (Mr. Jacob), We have also reco_mmended to of the the reduction Government prohibitive duty on skimmed milk which ii; said to be of high nutritional value.

That, however, the hon.

Member for North-Western District but he is not an expert although he has been so described by the hon.

Member just taken his seat.

It is impossible even for a genius to be an expert on every subject..
The experb1 have told us that this skimmed milk is of high value, and if it can be nutritional imported at the price stated by the hon.

then we would the Colonial Secretary be able to overcome the shortage fresh milk in the Colony.

who 11as of in supplying I am aware that 1Vlr.

A. G. KING: While I hav� this debate of dairy farms in ·1ari· of that problem is the importa­ Government problem, skimmed milk.

As would be the no desire to, lengthen unduly I would like my position made this motion quite clear.
In supporting that Gov­ ldo so on the under-standing this ernment· is only introducing measure to make up the insufficiency in the supply of milk in the Colony at 9resent.

is faced with a very difficult but I trust that it does not think the solution tion of powdered I see it, the only solution establishment ous parts of the Colony.

One of the the greatest difficulties the City with · milk is undoubtedly lack of proper transportation.
I know it is very expen:,;ive and worrying to the Controller quantities on account of the · distance and the time it takes to trans­ travel, port it to the City.

A long-term must be taken of this matter.

Our stock of cattle has improved to an amazing extent as a result of the of cows.
The stock at importation Mackenzie and has been increased improved by importations, credit to the Demerara Bauxite Co. .I think it would be a very useful object les,-:on for the people of the Colony to see what can be done with a little expenditure enthusiasm concerned.

and a little courage and so far as a mil,k supply is of milk go bad every day it has to of Milk.

Considerable and is a view Mr. JACOB: May I .ask who is going to import this skimmed milk for the Board?
Mr. WIGHT: That i1s, a matter I in to establish If we find that our the inhabitants The Board will not charge duty on the importa­ of detail which the Board has not yet considered.

any commission.

supply of fresh milk has increased then the prohibitive tion of milk would be reimpos,ed.
have always been an ardent advocate of the use of fresh milk, and I sea no reason to change my view, but I cannot see that the necessity for the importation milk involves Government is not attempting wholesale but only where the necessity be a sound economic by Government.
It is not impossi-ble this Colony dairy farms capable of supplying with pure fresh milk-It is not a dream; it can be done and I appeal to Government to about it, even if I have do something the to go to the extent of suggesting to con­ appointment some long-term :,:ider and recommend of refrigera­ plan for the establishment parts of the tion plan.ts Colony where milk is produced.

The cost would be heavy but it will pay of good dividends the health of the people if they could I of skimmed of that policy.
in the improvement arises.

That seems to im'p.ortation policy advocated of a Committee in the various a reversal any __ j 2269 kecluc-tion of Duty 8 FEBRUARY, 1M6.

-Skimmecl Mille 2270 of George-­ Essequibo of milk per day.

( Mr. C. V. Wight) rely on a supply of_ pure fresh milk every clay.

The hon.

Member for \<Vestern stated that the requirements town are 2,50-0 gallon<; ldo not know where ht, got his figure;; but that would mean that each individ­ t,al would ge1.

less than one-third pint per day.


That is not my idea of the quantity of milk required each day.

I think every individual person should drink a1 least a pint of milk per day.

by an of a to hav,a to the shortage food of any kind.

1 more tasteless.

of food that is inter• and I cannot imagine While I support the proposal to import skimmed milk in order to relieve of fresh milk I am very suspicious fered with by man.
1 am suspicious of dehydrated have had the misfortune eat such food anything what the experts in interfering with Nature, whether by dehydrating food or skimming milk anti drying it and then adding water to it.

I have been told by a very prominent dentist milk it is prnposed to impoi-t fo deficient of certain salts which are necessary for the preservation teeth.

in this City that the skimmed say I do not believe In spite of of one's The COLONIAL SECRET ARY: 1 to the hon.
Member for am grateful the· points he has raised but I would like to point out that skimmed milk loses nothing except it,-fat, but it gains in protein, cal­ cium, phosphates and iron.

I have the figures here.

carbohydrates, Mr. KING: I have the utmost but I say respect for that authority that it is impossible to d1·y milk, put water back into it and .say it ha,; regained the substances that Nature put into it.

Only a cow and the female of the human specie,; can produce milk.
Scientists cannot produce milk Profes­ sor Dash, as Head of the Department Agricul�ure, has devoted a very grcut of Officer, of the· Colony who has certainly to import pedigree part of his time to the improvement of the cattle industry with the support of Mr. Webb, tb.e Livestock done a great deal in the short time he has been here to improve the stocks in the Colony, but I feel that some­ thing further should be done.
It i.s not sufficient animals and sell them VJ farmers in the hope that they will be developed in the way they should be.

I am sOIT)' to say that the average farmer takes very little in caring his stock in the way they should be cared foi·.

A great effort has been made by the Department the breed of our cattle but greater f ef orts are still needed if we are really sincere to produce sufficient the people.
milk to supply the need8 of in our endeavour of Agriculture to imprc-ve interest There is the danger, at least among of people in th� mixed.

it would undoubtedly can, adding of the colollr that this skimmed milk powder the poorer classes Colony, will not be mixed to the quality They recommended by the makers.

are going to thin it out so as to make it go as far as it possibly a,; much water as they can, so long as they keep a semblance of milk.
If the skimmed milk is properly have a far greater water is added act l-ib.

I have spoken on this matter because I believ� that there i,s no real substitute for good fresh milk.

I support the motion more or Jess as a temporary measure to relieve milk that exisfa, The supply varies according weather, insufficiency I support the motion because is a necessity.

to the and in every dry weather the shortage especially of fresh in the City.
the undoubted food value than if I feel it is even more pronounced, Mr. GONSALVES: We have han quit<!

a long debate on this matter and I do not wish to prolong We seem to be travelling noon along a milky way and I hope we will soon get to the end of it.

The it much longer.

this after­ 2271 Reduction of Dut11 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL -Slcirnmed Mille 2272 of of (Mr. C. to the l\Iilk figures which were given by the hon.
Member for Western Essequibo V.Wight) were supplied Control Board by the Controlle1· Milk who has gone into the question milk supply very keenly.

_There eai1 be no doubt that there is a ,shortage of milk in the City, the reasons for which are well known.

It has been said that the shortage of supply is very often due to the fact that people in districts t.he country certain periods cultivation, at those times.

That Therefore to relieve periods.


some means must be founr1 the shortage take time off at to look after their rice and it is rice and not milk of milk at such is nothing new.

time on account Unless there'is some reached Georgetown.

proper system by which the milk is at the source fr0m which it analysed comes, there will always be the question I am com­ as to its quality.
arising pelled to support the motion at the present and I am supporting Members as a temporary the view that Government seriously e;-:tablishment private enterprise Government so.
of what exists, it like other measure with would go into the matter of the of dairy farms either by itself undertaking or subventions or to do The PRESIDENT: I will now is not disposed I have said it years ago and I repeat it again that this City cannot a proper milk supply rely on getting unless dairy farms are established in the Colony.

What the hon.
What the hon.

Member 011 my left (Mr. King) ha,s said this after­ noon is what I have said before-that if private enterprise embark on dairy farms then it i;; a matter which Government shonld I have always thought that undertake.

there should be one in _Essequibo.

of milk is not confined shortage I remember that three Georgetown.

or four years ago when a Committee -ng into the queRtion evi­ was i-nquiri dence was taken and the people from the country districts age of milk.
spoke of a short­ The to to s on theil' dairy farm I have previously that advocated might the sugar estate proprietors make it part of their business to planta­ establish tion,s.

Such farms ,should be estab­ lished on the East and ·West Coasts of Demerara, in Berbice and on the Esse­ quibo Coast, and if the sugar estates 8uch an industry decide to establish they should be given every encourage­ ment.

T.here is no spe�ial milk at its sources analysis of thf.
analysis The cnly taken is after the milk has of supply.

to say something but it is the first thing I of Agriculture, about touching call on the Director who is present, and conditions the progr�Rs industry the livestock .

The hon.

Mem­ ber said we had been going the milky way.

I would not like to refer to that specifically, have been seeing these· last six weeks.

I rode across, the Savannah Incidentally at Abary and Ebin-i.
It was interest­ ing, but what T did see and what is is the germane to this discnssion situation lamentable where there is not enough adequate rmitable rlespite what people think and say.

That is constantly producing the rice and cattle own� auarrel between ers.

There is no'l: enough room.

That i8 why I have put up that very scheme for the Corentyne.

give adeqliate and cattle.

its first stage on which we are now engaged an extra 27,000 acres for ture, and ultimately to 140,000 acres.
That is the very first need we have.

and for the cattle now room for sugar and rice That scheme promi,;es in on the Corentyne it will go through paisture It i'> to large pas­ DASH (Directo1· of Profes:sor Agriculture) : I do not think it is to take up too much time in necessary as the dealing with this question, out very matter has be,m fully; but two references debate.

In the first instance to some features thrashed of the ther� is I just want to make one or 2273 Reduc.tion of Diity 8 FEBRUARY, 1946.
S1cimmed Milk 227,1 of As it is cream'' milk.

that greater of nutrition cht:ap to knowledga has been since the matter was first I myself nervous about the motion no question the question accumulated brought before this Council.

was a litt]e because I felt that there might be dis­ criminate use of this milk and that it might be used generally.
people would use it in preference what is called ''whole Not only abroad but even hel:e, I edu�a­ think it is true to say, nutrition ;m<l enormously, tion has progressed to are beginning people everywhere know about proper feeding and to be food conscious here to be milk conscious.

that the introduction may help us to get people more milk always that our conscious, can be fixed in that nutrition direction.

Do not let the people think they can use skimmed milk for babies.
It may be of this measure provided education .

We want the people Dis­ Today a Actually quantity of skimmed milk· that a lot of this rather suggested as we want them from I do not know if hon.

Members are aware of it, but my hon.

friend, the Member for North-Western trict, skimmed _milk goes to feed pigs.

At one time, I think that was so, °I.Jut not since the value of skimmed mi.lk has been fully realized.

tremendous is used for cooking and large quanti­ ties go to areas abroad that a.re devastated.
I do not think there will be any difficulty supplies, Canada or even the United Kingdom as time goes on.

Certainly stage it does constitute tion to our diet.

Reference made to the quPstion of fats and to what Dr. Platt has said.

There can be no doubt that fats are easier to get I do not than protein and minerals.

think we need worry that a shortage and coconut fat,;.
But we do know there is a antl shortage in the dietary that skimmed milk is laden with min­ erals, That is one strong point in its at this a useful atldi­ of fats, a,-we have Fryol of minerals in getting there may be has been oil and other sources of favour,.

I do not think we need worry that our people will be worse off from the viewpoint be better off.

of nutrition.

They will by _one I share the view expressed or two hon.

Members that this is not a thing.


Surely it can be permanent used only as the occasion arises.

J would not like to think that we have to impol't skimmed milk altogether.

if we bear that point of view in mind and can control reason why it should not come in.

Always remember that we cannot allow the people to think that skimmed milk is just as good as whole cream milk or fresh milk.

the supply, there is no So My hon.

friend, M-r. Thompson, and it will continue up by one other Member.
until we understand wha':; is that had so expanded­ brought out in the to which the Dis­ we could not at or factorization of placed his finger on the point and it was followed The supply of milk in this Colony has always fluctuated, to fluctuate we are after.

The position your rice industry that was strongly report of the Committee hon.
Member for North-We!stern trict referred-that the time recommend factory that particular point-the pasture areas were decreasing milk supplies When we have a factory regularly question addition ered.

We cannot just put dowa a factory of months we have a large supply while Then there is the ,-upplied.

and the of transportation merely because during a couple were going up and down.
cost to be corrnicl­ for milk beeause development of overhead rapidly it has to be and our , for the rest of the year we have a poor has until, supply.

We will not get that po,sition improved ais Your Excellency pointed out, we· get plenty of pastures which, as hon.

Members know, are deteriorating have got further if this Council had supported the y made as recommendation far back as 1927-28.

At t_hat time we were not animal consciou with this development very rapidly.
s enough to originall We could 2275 Reductioni of .Duty_ LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL -Slr.immed MUk 227'3 lines.

The only way r,..e see that our industries are developn<J_ on industrial can get a continuous supply of milk is by intensive forage of the breed of our animals.

All those points the hon.

Member for Dem­ erara River brought up.

and improvement your We will try to educate You separate the cream, process · ghee and you have the skimmed milk to return to the people free, gratis and for nothing.
them to use it in their homes.

If it "is not used in their homes, then some other use will have to be found for it.

I would like to think that in the long run we would get this Rurplus and instead we can get a powdererl of a condensed milk plant.

supply milk plant I heartily agree that we want P.ducated in this country.

One hon.

Me1nbe1· to the sugar estates.


Cer­ They do not muWply It takes time, and it is wants to take up this ques .. ·-iants to take up this ques­ of dairies development made a good effort to get Government pure bred bulls to improve our live­ stock.

We are doing our best in get­ ting the peasants as to how to ·handle cows.

like rabbits.

enterprise mterpris•e tion of dairies.


·referred tainly they have good conditions, I do not know that on the sugar e.st,.tes dixring the .last few years this qu�stion of dairies has made consid2rable this strides.

matter with the sugar estates now period, over a com;iderable and some excellent has been made.

I figured it out that if all the sugar estates would be able to supply the whole popu­ lation of the estates with one pint of milk a day.

I am hoping for that time to come.


I have been discussing had 400 dairy cows each they progress but So far as Essequibo is concerned, has been made to conditions ghee was so low that our would have had to accept a reference there.

As hon.

Members know, we h:1ve a ghee plant there.

We figured it out at the time and found then that the pric,� of imported bu,siness very low pr.ice for it.

We therefore had to give up the idea.


Conditions have since improved ,and we have been able since then to put up the ghee plant, but we cannot get a supply of milk to make a start.

Mr. Webb, the ·Livestock has been made, is just waiting to be to get told that we have a move on.

The advantage about our ghee plant i,s that it is a small unit1 and can be developed where you have a surplus of milk.
Officer, to whom reference the milk supply at any spot that we would realize There is much more I can say and Dafry.

I do wish here for rearing to be taken in it.

Not oniy in order to put that industry pigs and other stock, and no or about Livestock tlrnt this Council have the conditions cattle, effort should be spared, financial otherwise, footing.
Some on a real substantial years ago I made out a complete esti­ mate of all the requirements for the whole of these projectR, yet I got no interest we were able to get money and con­ vincing recognition Development and Welfare Scheme, but we have not been able to get o� with the job as fast as we would like.

The1-'e are a great many difficulties in the way, but I am satisfied that we :i.re making progress.
more areas are better drained--that essential-when and our food situation is no reason why in the next five or six yearn we should not be self-support­ ing in milk and milk commodities.

is improve conditions there from the Colonial If all goes well and improves, The PRESIDENT: Thank you.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: I this mo_tion, of Agriculture desire to thank those hon.

Members who have supported and.

the for his .

ade­ Director quate reply to any suggestion that.


Gov­ ernment is not taking every posdble step to improve the dairy indu�try.

in this Colony.

I would just 'like.

to answer very shortly the points.

I have noted which have been brought out by the opposition.

As r3gards.

· the of_ riding over starving ·question .

peo- __ ....ll.-..,_ _ 2277 Skimmed Milk 8 FEBRUARY, 1946.

Rice Marketing Bill 2278 District, and others, that this Govern­ by the hon.
Member pie, as suggested for North-Western District that is really not to be taken seriously.

would be The whole of our allocation under the control of our combined F'ood Board, and I do not think we should have more than that.

As· regards the question ment is advised by unworthy experts, I do not agree with the hon.

Member and will for North-Western ask him if he has ever read the report oi;i ''Nutrition Empire.''

dea1s entirely can give him it to read after this meeting.

of his points.
of his points.

of fat, as the Director said, it is ample in proteins •essential factors phates, calcium, skimmed milk is deficient it has many other ingredients which make it very useful.

While there is deticiency ·of Agriculture and other to our diet--phos� etc.

We know that That' answeriS a great many with skimmed milk.

I III of that report.

in the Colonial Appendix in fats but As regards the point made by the fairly adequately has failed, hon.
Nominated Member, Mr. Edun, I think that milk control the hon.

Member for Western Esse-­ quibo ha:;; am1wered what the Milk Control has done and the present Milk Control Board as is doing.

I would like to constituted tell the hon.

Member really in one sen­ knee that we are asking this Council no,,.,· of to approve of the importation skimmed milk which will be largely used by the people of low incomeR who no at present are consuming milk at all or in inadequate eithe1· quantities.
As regards the point raised by the opinion hon.

Member for Demerara-Essequibo and other Members1 I hope this will measure.

It only be a temporary My own can always be adjusted.

is that whenever yon pe1,sonal get a supply of good whole cream milk will at a reasonable adjust its.elf because the consumer will much prefer to drink whole cream milk than skimmed milk powders if he can get it.

But he cannot get it now.

We want this amendment of in order to the Customs Ordinance increase country.
the supply of milk in this price, the situation , /�, Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: 1 would as it will influence if the hon.

the Co1onial explain, be grateful Secretary my vote one way or the other, whether this milk s11pply the control of the Controller or it will be in the open market to be sold by everybody.

will be placed under of Milk The COLONIAL SECRETARY: As far as I know-I have not yet seen of the new Milk the recommendation Board-it is intended and sold by anybody.

to b"!
to b"!

imported Question put and the Council divided and voted as follows: For: Messrs. Thompson, Jackson, Austin, Dr. Singh, C. V. Wight, Seaford, the Kin,g, Gonsalves, Critchlow, Colonial Treasurer, General and the Colonial 12. t he Attorney­ Secretary- Agai'llst: Mesr-rs.

Edun, Jacob and Peer Bacchus-3 As regards in my files, of whether the import­ the question or not we should encourage ation of milk powders, the surveys show, as recorded consumption averages per day.

I think the hon.
I think the hon.

Member for Demerara but it is obvious that is inadequate.

The more fresh milk is consumed the better the country will be.

of milk in the Colony of a pint per person River quoted that fi.g11re, one-fifth that the Motion adopted.
,-J RICE MARKETING BILL The Council resumed the debate on the second reading of the following Bill:- A Bill intituled "An OrdinaUCf\ powers, duties and func­ provide for the establishment, stitution, tions • of the British Guiana F.ice Board and for purposes Marketing nected with the matfers aforesaid."
con­ to con­ 2279 Rice Marlceting Bill COUNCIL -Second Reading 2280 LEGISLATIVE MR. EDUN: Your Excellency, when Mr. EDUN: Because of that ,, /, it is very very important statement I know as that it should be refuted.

a matter of fact that no meeting was held at Vreed-en La J alotrnie, Leguan.

Wakenaam,, Essequibo Mahaica, Mahaicony, Cotton the Eastern Berbice ·Hoop, Windsor Forest Hague, Vergenoegen, Tree and · Districts.

the democratic of the Bill was no concern.

on Friday last that what the hon.


Mover to point out to the Council adjourned I was endeavouring this Council had stated regarding strncture Before I proceed further with my arguments just to bring to the attention hori.

the Colonial a statement made not support in any form.

I wish to refer to that statement as follows:- of the ·council what the Treasurer said.
It i3 by him which he did I would like which reads "From what I have bee:�1 tol<l by members, they say that they have talked it over with 11rodncers."

Trea,:urer's or members of the Board had consulted in the districts.

In view of th"?

hon.

the That was in reply to my query as to whether members of the Central Rice Committee Rice Marketing the producers 0f the importance Colonial was published many letters refuting bring-to the attention one particular Rice Farmers' Association Jas.

A. Sookie, hony.
A. Sookie, hony.

reads as follows:- letter :ind I would of this CoLmcil letter from the Berbice in the Press, I received from all over the Colony that statement, statement which Secretary.

signed by That.

"Dear Mr. Edun: fn th€' report of or of the Rice Marketing the clebate Doard Bill in the Daily Chronicle M"ndav.

4tih, we read where the hon.

Colonial Treasurer said he "vas informed Rice Committee the Bill with the Rice Producers.

clil'ected tlrn t nothing this area.''


by memhers of the Centr:>.1 that they h ad discussed by this Association to tell you of the kinrl took I :un place in That is the Bastern Berbice Dis­ trict.

Now there are several other letters which definitely :·,o such meetings districts.

maintain had taken place in the that Mr.

PEER BACCHUS: For the I may say hon.

Member's information that one was held at Cotton Tree.

of this Council Mr. EDUN: That is not my was held at Crab·· information.
None w:mt wood Creek.

Now I particularly to be incorporated in the this statement I shall no doubt ask the debate because President to refer the whole debate to His Majesty's tary of State for the Colonies, will endeavour report be sent to that Minister.

That h so far as that statement ..

I remember, that I was going to speak fm ther and that I was not halfway in my speech, the hon.
Member for Georgetowrr North ';, He made a statemen (Mr. Seaford) said: to see that the whole Seere­ and I i& concerned sir, when I had intimated ''Well Members would see, perliaps, that there would be no quorum on the day of the, meeting of the subsequent Council-" That will suit me very wull I wish help sometime& indeed if every day I have to spea1c on this Bill I come here and find rn, quorum, because in order to place before the democratic.

authorities of the rice producers.


that, perhaps, very well that after the General Elections he may be relieved coming here and wasting his time.

Let him take a note of that.

That will suit _me well.

in England the whole case Apart from the hon.

Member knows of The COLONIAL TREASURER: I that never for one moment suggested meetings talked it over, took place.

I said they had the hon.

Member to say that interrupt he should not pursue the subject.
suggest that he should ti:y and come here with a, sense of humour, I Mr. SEAFORD: Perhaps I may 2281 Ric� Marketing Bill 8 FEBRUARY, 1946.

-Second.

Reading 2282 of a I of in orcler movements, he did so purpo.

'lely he endorsed certain nature and democratic • Colony to Caribbean I want to appreciate the hon.

mover knows full well from this of that expression.

of the strength in a case like this.


what he calls ''a co-·operative organiza­ tion of a democratic character'', Members of this Council the technique am fully conscious that expression becanse that as a delegate the fir,:t Ani;rlo··American Conference at that C,mference based declarations on co-operative and that in hying to paint this Bill 11.s one co-operative character to mislead the public in this Colony.
J am going to prove to this Council, :m,i I hope conclusively, that it is nn inherent characteristic democracy one's occupation with.

This Bill, which J propose to examine from one end to the othe1', to defeat the designed nrinciple democracy economic characteristic This Government has taken what 1 should term a wrong step, and having­ taken that step it has lancled itself issue.
I shall endeav­ an international our in this Council to raise that inter­ national issue and thu;:; save-at least I hope I will be able to - the ric:e producers shackled organization economic of this Colony from being within the is of inherent oeriphery of an them on to of British democracy.

that the right to choose is nev<'r tampered which will lead of British and that serfdom.

in Mr. ED1JN; I will undertake to do that.

l must take note of that.


In any case I for one have pleaded in this Council each other, but I a.m prepared at any time to make a rejoinder of any Member.
that we should understand because process, ai1d that even if were very busy, the Reporters T was forcibly observations I could not get that report report of your Temarks so an expert he could not come and get the of Your observations, and I am for those observations struck by Your that very day Excellency's and I asked the Clerk of the Council for a verbatim that I might examine them.

but unfor­ tunately because with them.


In effect, and I sympathize said that you believed Your Excellency i11 a co-operative movement tut it was a matter of slow growth, a gradual evolutionary we secured here and say ''Hey presto'' job done.

That is the e,:i-ence Excellency's thankful they help the cause of the producera but here it is, GovernmP.nt want!'!

to <lo the job by ur-ing the vi!ry words "Hey presto" and passing this Bill.
With due deference lency, I hope you will pardon me if r remind you that Hitler had often used the same expression-that was of slow growth; it was democracy and should be a humbug to pro.1ness scranoed.

of Hitler and Mussolini-that C'O··operative movement was something of a slow, painful It is not that I feel that Your Excel­ lencv iR �entimentally but if I were in your ·place of the Head of this Admin­ the position have acted in the i:;ame istration manner in order to see that the Administration tively.
Thm;e were the sentiments to Your Excel­ Oh r10, a Fascist.

and tedious on effec-· occupying is carried I might growth.

the Having disposed of the point that element.

in it.

; that it does not given by an endorsation at the West Indian Conference this Bill has not the slightest of democracy propose to set up a co-operative character, of a democratic organization the hon.

mover stand,; in the position of violating himself and �ubsequently Council.
that ratification think l have mentioned mentals of voluntary extracts Co-·operative Britain," in due course.

I certain co-operation from the booklet on "The which the hon.

mover will not I shall give the dates of Movement in Great ratifie<l by this funda­ by This measure con.

::erns the very of the pro­ and this Government lives of the vast majority ducers, tu be a democratic expect it to follow democratic cedure in every case.

Having exam-· hie(} the hon.

Mover's conception happens one.


We therefore pro­ of .. .

,,, 2283 Rir'e M ar;ceting Bill LEGtSLATIVE eou�crt '-Seconcl Reading 2284 He will either have be :..ble to refute.

to stand by his endorsement at th_e West Indi.an Conference the Bill-does not contain any element organiza­ of a voluntary tion or association.

co-9perative or admit that Forty-four nations met at Hot Springs between the 18th May and the 3rd June, 1943, to determine policy with to food and agriculture.
Those respect 44 nations made certain declarations among which is declaration full text of which I propose your permission, may be incorporated this debate and read by the Secretary of State for the Colonies, George Hall.
Declaration sir, in order that it in the report of XVII, the to read with ment of producer an,1 consumer societies co-operative render ll€o1Cessary ing, purchasing, services; production, finance, market­ and other in order to (b)Each nation examine its laws, and institutions regulations, mine if legal or -institutional to co-operative order to make cl esirable to deter, obstacles exist, in 2 djus tmen ts; development (c)Full information as to the development countries the permanent present in different able through tion recommended in "Resolution II."
of co-operatives be made avail­ organiza­ I am asking this depleted Conncil Whereas: development note of Recommen­ the Rt.

Hon.

XVII reads: ''XVII CO-OPERATIVE MOVEMENTS.".

to see whether any obstacles to exist and to to take particular dation (b) which says that all nations should examine its laws, regulations, and in:stitution,s legal or institutional co-operative if they exist.

Of remove such obstacles course there was no delegate frcm at the Hot Springs British Guiana Conference.
infinitesimal that we could not think of putting our noses there, but this Legislature of Guiana did ratify all the Resolu­ British I want tions passed at that Conference.

to bring that fact to the attention to save it from this Council in order to save contravening directly Members being termed violators of a pledge.

of their own co-operative to do.


movement has 1.The co-operative been of very great importance countries, both especially lations., tricts where farming units and in urban areas of low-income families; 2.
The· ])roper functioning societies of agricultural as members have con­ and co-operative adj•ustments and distribution, fidence in the recommendations guidance organizations, which in thE;t of society Perhaps we are such an unit of the British in agTicultural is based on small of may facilitate That is what I am endeavouring to urban and rural popu­ they know operate of their members and production interests a treaty, in general; Empire, in ma1iy dis­ of It was on the 20th September, 1943, control and 3.
The democratic which are educational prugrammes, movement, features of the co-operative o.f can play a vital good democratic citizens, in inducing economic matters; part in the tr.2ining and assist a sound-conception of The United Nations Conference on Food and Agriculture Recommends: 1.That, in order to make it possibk1 for people to help themselves ing costs of production distribution and marketing: and costs of in lower­ from speaking of Hot Springs here, and I, a:; a carry no hostile of that day when I was As a matter of fact those that this Council by Resolution No.
24 the decisions accepted Conference.

were ratified decisions Member of this Council remembrance precluded I was then fully conscious that we were being asked to.

ratify something I was endeavouring when the hon.

Deputy President ly heckled me in this Council, Member for North-Western over and (Mr. Jacob) was interrupted over again.

I have the Hansard report to make the point actual­ we knew nothing about, and on the subject.
of the fact and the District possibilities of the furtlwr establish• (a) All countries study · th� �285 Rice Marketing Bill s FEBRUARY, i946.

-Seconi?

Readi1ig �28(j are · supplanting be We were precluded was moved by no less a pe,n;on to peruse.

unanimously.

of the debate here _which I wish Your Excellency from making our points.

As a matter of fact, a motion ''that the question now put'' than the hon.

M.r.
M.r.

M. B. G. Austin and it was carried ber of this Council, President ted Member, was committed ratification cratic procedure.

sage, No.

12, Septem­ ber, 1943, and the ratification took µlace on the 28th October, down to the Seventh Nomina­ to the es­ was dated 20th Every Mem­ from the Deputy by virtue of the demo··· peasants; because.

to be landowneh; I want both and to become they are the notice of it -because it was not a matter about .

which we shoud hang our heads in shame.


It is unfort.unate that the East Indians the Africans, �-aces independent "Siamese twins" of this Colony.

out them we cannot get on at all; on their backs the whole of our economic structure East Indians are suppb,nting is the result Africans as landowners system, but of our faulty educational I do not want to go irito that aspect oi' the question.

rests.

The fact that the the The Governor's M 1943.

With• The matter did not end there.


the declarations of held at it endorsed was held between the 21st and 30th 'fhe West Indian Conference at Barbados March, 1944, and at the beginning its session made at the United Nations Confer­ ence on Food and Agriculture Hot Springs in 1943.

The hon.

:Mover of this Bill (the -Colonial attended that Conferen.ce of this Government but I do not think this Council was of the consulted In my case, I accept the delegates.
principle not only the Legislature of British recorded Indian Conference: Guiana, and this is what is in the report of the West about the position but the people as a deleiwte and this Council, Treasurer) that the delegates represented "We endorse the Declarations by the United Nations Conference Food and Ag1·icu' Springs in 1943.''
macle on iture held at Hot .,f made at subsequently It is well known that the British -::he ratified ns made at Hot Springs, so Empire Parliament Declaratio that every citizen of the British must accept the decisions Hot Springs.

I have here a photo­ graph of the hon.

E. F. McDavid, C.B.E., his speech in which he expressed view that the East Indian population wa.s supplanting ownership There was a hu1labaloo statement, the Negroes in the of land in the coastal areas.
about that and I also have the report of but I did not take any the movement- must be made by the British and endorsetl subsequently Nations met together examine its laws.
Here we Coming back to this pledge <>f a where character, high international forty-four at Hot Springs and made a pledge which was ratified Guiana Government, Legislative by Council and peoples that if all the Caribbean Colonies, there are any laws which are an obstacle to co-operative adjustment desirable and that each nation by ;::ommon obligation are examining our laws to see where there are defects, legal incidental, ment.
We are advocating a co-operative a Bill of this nature, a Bill that not only clogs the idea of voluntary but wants the rice association producers of this Colony to be hemmed in within the vicious circle of a sponsored Government to be financed Association Rice Marketing whether any of the Members of this Council the Fascist There were Trade Unions in Germany, but those Trade Unions were financed by the Nazi Party in power.

or develop­ against co-operative.

in· principle Rice Producers' by the Board.


I do not know system for "Gaulitier-;"_ movement by bringing had an opportunity to examine The same idea creeps in here now.

All the rice producers hemmed within a Rice Producers' Association by the Govern- sponsoreJ wi\1 be 2287 Rice Marketing i?itl LEGISLATIVE COUNCIi -Second Reading 2M� If it were a pledge to ourselves, its .M:y move­ from of Srnte for why break it?

of having, Secretary thing; indred have it from them - the Admini;:;­ the whole 1vorld.
is based on this one · It is a very seriouR in my assumption Board.

Can you tell me note of saving one ma,1 in ment and financeu by the Rice Marketing anything more preposterous in the history of this Colony?

The iclea is and when I :found that I nauseating, was fully supported that the statement by the hon.
and, when Mover was only to mislead made the observation Your Excellency you did last Friday, I thanked my stars because the minds of this Council The whole idea is to have it from the top going down right to the bottom instead the bottom and going up to the top, as in this model book which expres;;ed that the co-op�rRtive emphasizes ment is a movement from the bottom and not from the top.

Th,it is the opinion of the Rt.

Hon.

A. V. Alexander, I could have read right through 0:1 this Bill.
First Lord of the Admiralty.

an organisl'.tion to England and interview and seek the assistance in order that thi8 should be saved fr,>m task of breakinp,- the rice growers-I -to proceed His Majesty's of the Colonies Labour Members of Parliament, those who are in sympathy with their struggles, Government this iniquitous pledge.

to the rice producers, Perhaps we will stand the tyranny of fate.
This was a pledge given wide throughout publicity Do you want to tell me that a small unit 'like ourselves will infinitesimal dare at this time of the day to commit such an act without repercussion?

whole pleading particular whom somehow I Ktill have implicit faith and confidence trato1· It.

will go down in history regime of s,o brilliant at this time of the day, and I want you, sir, to think a hundred times before you proceed with this Bill.

of this Colony at the moment.

to that cc,nference.


on is this: Having having those declaration;,, been adducing in support of thjs Bill to go against one's pledge.

There question of the signatures the delegates Perhaps there was.

Each member Nations may of the forty-four delegate have had to put his sign a tu re to the declarations.

of us here knows, but what I wi,;h to lay emphasis accepted end<irs'ecl them and subsequently ratified them, is it right for thi.s Government at this time of the.
day, when the small nations :-;truggling for self determination, this pledge Rimply because it wants to hold on to the prorluce of lhe rice farmers of ti') is Colony?

It is a thing to do.

and I am dangerous with Your Exceiler-1cy pleading will create no conficlenee British Guiana Government.

will not be from that, this Government able to demand clue re.,pect from abroad if it breaks its pledge.

It is easy to think, sir, that a pledge is nothing.
But this thing may hav� J am sure international it will have, for it is th'!

intention instances my cause for the rejection and for it to go to a Select Committee of this Council.

I give you my wc,rd that, · perhaps, this Bill may be a little more moderate will be acceptable.

then the idea of the pledge goes hy the Loard, but I cannot accept the statement made by the hon.

Mover that members of the Central Ri<.


:2 Committee consulted anybody m· discussed this Bill with anybody.I want to examine the members of th•➔ Central Rice Committee and the membe:rs of the Rice Marketing Board, and to ai;k this Council whether Members can believe are capable of going out into the districts what they think about the Bill.

I am sure the majority of them do not understand bear with me, sir.

The present members of the Rice Marketing repercussion.

of art!
of art!

damouring to go against and asking the producers the Bill.

I hope you will Why worry with a plerlge?

in the Apart I have hitherto and arguments I do not know than it is anrl it that any is no of that those peri;rJns against that thi;.

: of the If it is accept�.bl� an Administrator ��89 Rice Marketing Bi(i 8 'FEBRUARY, '.i.946.

�.Seconci 'Reading 2290 Board are the Hon.

E. F. McDavid, Chairman; Professor J. S. Dash - to his remark on what I said.

All The COLONIAL TREASURER: I hope the hon.


Member i;; not drawing another inference I said in interpolation was that I was informed by som� of the members of the Rice Committee that they had talked it over with their colleagues in their area.

I hope the hon.

Member doe,; not infer that the membe1,s held that meetings were held eithel" members of the Board the Rice Committee.

by or members of I never sait'l meetings.

Mr. EDUN: I accept the everyone consnlted Perhaps the hon.
as it stands-they because when the Secretary the Bill with him?

That So when the hon.

statement the producers.

Mover would tell u::; what is the total number of rice producers in this Colony and how it was possible to consult of them-Can i;; be done by just going around toeveryone and discussing i,; itnprncticable.

Mover has made that statement it has very far a far reaching consequence, of indeed, State for the Colonies say that the producer:; consulted.

say that the people have been consulted.


When Yom Excellency tells him that in a despatch he will accept it against my Head of word.

The Administrative this country has certain prestige am\ and when he says a thing as standing, the Representative Colonial trust in his grace thi:; Colony can only and gentlemanship - if I can m;e that term-to put both sides of the in this Council.

story as expressed of the King the it.

We in sees it.
We in sees it.

he will have been It is an easy thing to Office accepts I was endeavonring, sir, to examine Rice Committee the members of this Board and the members of the Central one by one.

I will be able to bring home forcibly to this Cour.cil whether it · was possible to go around and consult gentlemen every rice farmer in the districts.

Chairman, the Hon.

E. F. McDavid, one of the busiest Officers The is of for thoso ,.
,· in this City, a man on Government whom we have to depend for the finances of the Colony.

I think his whole time ought to be devoted to that in order our finances stabilizing we cam offset a deficit in the future, and I for one would relieve him of this post of Chairman of a co-operatiVll which he intends to organization build for the people.

Why.

should he wony c1.bout that?

Let us educate the pP.ople to manage their own affairs.

Give them complete own affairs the Colonial President of the Board.
Can any Member visualize about the producers them about whac Hoop and consulting they think of this Bill?

No the hon.

the Colonial has no time for Treasurer that sort of thing, but perhaps the politician of life.

But no; the hon.

Treasurer him going at Vreerl-an­ is the prasent domination of their has.

Professo1· J. S. Dash!

I know l,;m to be a very fluent speaker.

· I have heard him severnl times in this Council and hon.
Members have he:•.rrt him just recently, minutes ago, and I am sure he did not go out into the districts anybody about the purport of the Rice Marketing Board Bill.

about fifteen and consult Then we have Mr. Abdool Rayman, Hoop, rice-miller he has in the very well indeed.

in that district.

and I know further that I know the I know and I happen to be J. P. of Vreecl-en landlord.

Somehow residing gentleman what large interests but I know more than rice indu�try, that.
I know what large interests the farmer:; on thol"e estates have in the rice industry, he never consulted not even hi,: own son, about the Eill.

Mr. Rayman has no time to be going around and talking about the Bill.

Perhaps I might have heard him telling me something were crossing But apart from that, this genial l,{•entleman farmers are not satisfied wi.11 not harm a fly though the with his about the Bill while we the ferry in the steamer.
any of them at a.11, 2291 R-ice Marketing Bill LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL -Seconi:l Reading 2292 tn be completely He did not consult with which we may have a run away with as he calls it administration.

them in his dual capacity as a Board member of the Rice Marketing and a member of th� Central Rice If he did not consult Committee.

the and a miller he farmers as a landlord had a right as a member of the Bonrd to do so.
If not, then as a nominated member of the Central Rice Committee like my,self he �houlcl the people at VrPPd-en-Hoop, a very important important as Windsor Forest, Mahaicony not take the oppMtunity himself an idea, an ideology himself, great deal of sympathy, but it has little e11ough constitution organi­ sation.

Wh11t I did try to say last Friday was the firn,t objective create an efficient, marketing organisation take action, this i� the fir;;t objective to put before ourselves an Ordin.
:tnce rice area, ju,,t ;1s and take action quickly, or Essequibo.

But he did have con.sulterl of the marketing of this kind.

t0 <lo so.

whkh is to do with the actual is to businesslik•, which can and we lrnvc in passing Now, one of the things to go Then you have the Hon.

l'ee1· Bacchus.

He has .inst t0\cl you- The PRESIDENT: The hon.

Member has Rpoken for 2 hrs.

12 mins.

and the debate l1as been in progre�s about six and a hal1i hours of which the hon.
Mover took consiclenil.Jly le�;; than one and a half hours.

I do not w::int to check the hon.

Member ai; -'Ill.

but I think it is time someone else has bit of a say in the matter.

As I a little cannot come up from Berbice every week to attend these rlebntes not anticipate meeting, before adjourning or two on particular particularly on the adjourment on points I mentioned last Fri<lay.

to say a word points anrl I will take this opporbmi being here for the next and I do ty in its principle.
our in ideology it i,; primarily It ,-eems to me that how­ and establishment may be, we must remember of a on a democratic \\'ith that must be a balance composition.

ever democratic sympathies that every Government has to be.

on its executive and side, efficient businesslike.

When we create a d1?mo­ cratic constitution by franchise legislature ,ve are trying to bring that about and I have tried.

But the Legislature in setting up its executive machinery must take care to make it efficient.
You will see that rule in most demo­ cratic countries in the world like the the United Kingdom anrl linited States, and even Russia, perhaps particul11rly in Russia.

totalitarian That is why the bala;nc of our Board e in composition matters a great deal.

You cannot have a thing like or a Legis- h,tive Council Council or a Local Authority to do the business staple crop.

Th�t is the first point I tried to get across on F'riday.
01· even a Town a Parliament of n marketing I said last Friday that the qne:s­ organisation, into two -­ itself in the step the co-operation tion largely divided one was the establishment of an and efficient marketing the second was of the growers and the industry being taken-and I tried to distin­ guish these two thing,s.

Member who has just spoken seem.� to me to completely the two, and a great deal of what he has said is really irrelevant That is intended marketing organisation.

Now the hon.
Now the hon.

confuse He has allowed to create an efficient to the Ordina.n�e.

Another point I wish to make now and which I would like to ment:on a,s I might not be here for the next debate by Members, is as to whether �uch marketing is really organisation opposed by the industry nnd the I growers throughout to :vI1·.

was asked to send telegram� Hall and the Colonial Offi� as the · hon.

Member has just said, using the this country.

2293 Rice Marketing Bili 8 FEBRUARY, 1946.


-Second Reading 2294 Ly in miles by or from of Govern­ by mule, on foot, I hll':tl quite a good opportunity Now is that true?

and unive1·sal numbers of people from growers on the spot.

that in going forward with we have a reasonable to hear that allegation Therefore to hear this statemn,t and universal words ''widespread dissatisfaction.''
I was surprised because I knew just how much trouble had been taken by officers ment, by many, not just one, to satisfy themselves i;his organisation mandate-from the industry, a great many people in it.

I was surpris:ed about widespread dissatisfaction.

the Central i,-·a harct­ picked Committee of ''yes-men.''

It is easy to say that, .


and yet I ·rlo not entirely my officers' ability to get a representative of the rice industry can completely can readily At any rate it shows there may be a cmh siderable difference and not widespread dissatis­ faction.
the last five week,s on the Corentyne, and I have been right in the middle of the rice fields, travelling canoe, by horseback, right to the very back of the empolder­ ment, and have been accompanied considerable the spot-rice It is quite easy to say that to anything I ask they will tell me what they think I wish.

It is easy to say the Governor has a certain prestige and they make replies to what he asks to please him.

I am not so green as to be alwayi taken in.


I asked a number of people of some standing, but when we were asking these questions twenty, many more, and indivirlual in their own fields where I was asking these questions, and I really cannot believe of express­ ing their own opinions telling cross-section or feel that they fail to get some people who me only what I wanted to.

hear.

speak for the industry.


scores of people with trn, they were incapable and unive.r�al It is quite ea,sy to say Rice Committee ,�ice farmers, of opinion, distrust but would be thirty, we had I have had handed in to me another resolution-a the Growers' Central Rice Committee.
from Sub-Committee of the resolution It reads:- "That this Sub-CommHJtee of from the resolution itself of the growers of padi parts o� the Colony, wishes representatives from various to d;ssociate passed at a meeting held in the 'fown Hall, Georgetown, on 6th January, 1946,_ protesting of the Rice Marketing that the Bill as published with in the Leg.islative as possib!e."
Co,mcil as early against the introduction Bill, and asks be proceeded You cannot just dismiss that and and say that there is widespread universal dissatisfaction.

is a considerable of opinio11 At least there degree of difference o!

the prese-:-1ce I have s•een enough people in this Colony to know that if they feel strongly on anything, the Governor does not stop them saying it.

The hon.

Member fo1· Essequibo River can tell you of the made to vocal representation,s me in Leguan and W akenaam.
My presence did· not deter those people from bringing them up.

And I have had people, shaking a bottle of dirty wa.ter before my face, and asking me to .

smell a calabash the water Government drink''.

asked questions farmers none of them would be prepared and universal if that was the case, but on the contrary.

gives Ufl to I will not believe that i.i' I of water, and saying ''This is among those rice dissatisfaction rice fa,rmers and East Indians.

to ,say there was widespread Now the hon.


Member made a I would just like to say this too.

good point in a number of points, as to whether the �fficers concerned had taken action in trying to get the opinion of rice growers.

I· made some attempt mysel,f, The hon.

Member talked about the Berbice Rice Farmers' Association.
heard from one of my informants that he anrl other rice farmers had asked members of the Central Commit- I As it happened, -:, 2295 Rice Marketing Bill LEGISLATIVE COU.NCIJ, -Sec(m(l Rea<ling 22% I agree there had not been tee to meet them and talk it out.

The meeting did not come off.

But the next thing he said was that he supported the Bill and the Rice Market­ ing Board, and wanted to see the thing go through.

public meetings,.
public meetings,.

My informant said he was a grower of rice; I think he said also he was ·not a public the Bill.

speaker but he supported by Crabwood Creek was mentioned the hon.

Member.

I met at and we talked least 100 people there, about the Rice Marketing Board.

There were criticisms.

I have made criti­ cisms myself, number of thing:; corrected.

The man of whom I spoke pressed that he wanted to see decentralised action in wanted to get that peasants Berbice, and so on.
I their money quickly, entirely put anything decentralisation possible At Crabwood to stop any person from saying what he wanted Lo say.

I have been there several times, and I have had very small persons several say something agree with him, and if I can in the Bill to make I will do so.

and should like quite a Creek there was nothing in the face of others.

times ,get up and prov1s11ons of the and told him what they were.
saw the phrase and thought even on pa·rticular Bill, and I called up the · Attorney­ General One gentleman ''perpetual the Rice Marketing forever and a legal phrase.

reasons of law.

I had objections put up about our clauses and so on.

We can cons,ider tee.

But by and large the impression I got is as I have said.

success-ion'' Board must go on I said that was put in for certain tho.se in commit­ forever.

I did hear the idea of the question of a popular strange to me that one that was raised by the hon.
Member bims·elf.

That is ideology kind, that everything should be broad­ based from the bottom up and so on .. lt seemed rather gentleman lines, sense, had clearly these academic icieas also and I certainly have 'lympathy with them.

But I did not :regard them as of practical value in organisatic>n.

a marketing creating in any who was not a rice producer who spoke to me on these I certainly cannot doubt the that the great mass.

of rice as a whole are very thank1 of the Rice Board.
From this they impression producers ful for the operations Marketing have got price, stability, I quote from a paper.

and security.

"The mass of small rice farmers ,.

that the functions because they have become generaJly are anxious of the Board should continue under its operations, much more independent of the landlords and millers selves .no longer •dependent merchants and middlemen, took a large share of the proceeds the marketing domestic while the latter are them­ upon and for export.''
consumption who formerly of the product both for 0£ If it is a question of encouraging a it to order.

on a fina:nciai among rice producers, co-operation great many of the Members here will have the utmost sympathy with it.

we can bring in of that too Anything in regard to the Rice Marketing Board, let us do it.
''Co-operation·• with proper devekpment basis and so on is of slow growth and we cannot produce But I would say that if rice producers are ruble anywhere to create a rice producers' a genuine one, then we should welcome it and try and adapt it into our legislation.

because, matter goes further here iin this Council before, development ag,ricultural co-�peration and so on needs developed between pleasant it they will not be able to reach the necessary standards.
shouuld have the greatest 'T'he as I 1,;aid the future I say again we smypathy association with machines growers; without I cannot doubt that that is of the mass of the general the small padi producers.

I have heard criticism Of course on the Bill, feeling with that.

j 229?'

Rice Marketing Bill 8 19.46.

-Seconcl Reading 2298 FEBRUARY, Further, if anybody tells me that interest­ extraordinarily my.self is coming.
the soil for that is not here in Guiana, I.again refer them to what I have Whal 1 just seen on the Corentyne.

to see wa..; had gone chiefly as I see it, that ne,ed of the future, in the bigger framework we are trying to create to take care of the expansion which But I did see something ing of the past.

That was, as one can see" it, first the little the road, and then in a few years the settlers push back a bit.
Those growers have got together and pushed back their dam perhaps two hundred or three hundred or more rods back.

They have cleared the bush and made clean land where before_ there wac, nothing me an officer pushed of them did it themselves, back gradually Many of them have taken money from but sodden swamps.

I had with who told me how many settlement on and repaid it.

I was very Government pleased indeed to see it and 1 pay a tribute farmers, is so immensely us develop we can.
here to these East Indian, as others have done, for what to their credit.

Let that in every possible way But I do say and come back to my first comment that if we are gorng to market our to get an organisation product effectively, we have got to give our first attention businesslike efficiency secure that.

and try and to practical I have said these things now I may not have an opportunity present next time when, I take because of bei.ng it, the hon.

Member will wish to continue.

their cultivation.


I adjourn the Council to Thurs­ day, the 14th Febnuu·y, at 2 p.m. �