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SECOND COUNCIL LEGISLATIVE (Constituted under the British Guiana (Constitution) 1953 and 1956).

(Temporary in Council, Provisions) Orders Tuesday, 1959 17th February, The Council met Cit 2 p.m.

PRESENT: His Honour Sir Donald Jackson Speaker, Chief Secretary, Attorney-General, Financial The Honourable Hon.

M. S. Porcher (acting) Hon.

A. M. I. Austin, Q.C.

Hon.

F. W. Essex.

Secretary, Dr. C. B. lagan -ex officio 1 " B. H. Benn ..
Member for Eastern Berbice (Minister -Member for Essequibo River of Community (Minister of Trade and Industry) Develop­ ment and Education) E. B. Beharry -Member for Eastern Demerara (Minister of Natural Resources) " Janet Jagan -Member for Western Essequibo (Minister of Labour, Health and.

Housing) ,, Ram Karran -Member for Demerara-Essequibo (Minister Works).

of Communications and Mr. R. B. Gajraj W.0.

R. Kendall ,, R. C. Tello ,, :F. Bowman ,, L. F. S. Burnham A.L.

Jackson S.M.
Jackson S.M.

Saffee ,, J. N. Singh ·" R. E. Davis A.M. Fredericks H. J. M. Hubbard -Nominated Member -li1ember for New Amsterdam �- River Member -Nominated -Member for Demerara_ -Member for Georgetown Central -Member for Georgetown North -Member for Western Berbice -M ember for Georgetown South -Nominated Member -Nominated Member -Nominated Member.

Mr.

I. Crum Ewing-Clerk Mr. E. V. Viapree-Assistant of the Legislature Clerk of the Legislature.

ABSENT: ,, Ajodha.

Mr. B. S. Rai - on leave.

Singh.


S.Campbell A. G. Tasker, - indisposed.

O.B.E.

- on leave.

The Clerk read prayers .

.

�.I ./ � ·r, .

.. 1 .· , l_.,,.

.

381 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 382 MiNYIBS TRANSPORT AND TRA YELLING Tire Mitiutes <>f the mee'f:ing held on Saturday, 14th February, 195~; as printed and circulated, were taken as read and confinned.
ORDER OF THE DAY APPROPRIATION BILL BUDGET DEBATE Mr. Speaker: Council will resume consideration of the Appropriation Bill in Committee.

RUPU~UNI t Att f:E Tito;ii, Mr. Tello: Under "Other Char_ges" "Transport and Travelling", I wish leave, Sir-- The Chairman: Where is that?

Mi.

Tello: Ort page 7, and if we fefer to the top of page 9 we will see re ference to the Cattle Trail.

Tke Cfiairmatt: Is tha:t "transport and Travelling"?
Secretary The Financial (Mr. Essex]: i _beg td ~bve that Cbtihcil re solve itse1f irito Committee to resume consideratio11 in Committee of the Bill in titufod "Aii Ordinance to appropriate the sup plies granted in the current Session of the Legislative Council."

TH~ Attdmey"Genetal (Mr. Aus tin): I beg to second the Motion.

Question put, and agreed to.

COUNCIL IN COMMITTEE Schedule.


AGRICULTURE AGRICUL TUR:AL ENGINEER The Chairman: When we adjourned last Saturday, we were discussing an Amendment moved by the hon.

Member, Mr. Jai Narine Singh, that sub-head 1, item (20) - "1 Agricultural Engineer" -be reduced by $1.

The Chairman: The Question is, that sub-head 1, item (20) b e reduced by $1.

Mr. Tello: No, Sir.

But it is the only head it can be brought up under.
This trail was iiiter1ded originally to allow free transport of cattle and other necess ary things from the Rupununi District.

During the discussion in Finance Com mittee we were impressed that Govern ment was giving favourable consideration this matter, but up to now, we to have heard nothing more.
One of it, but my had if we move a reduction of perhaps this head, it would enable the Govern ment to give us ari assurance that the sum for the maintenance of the Rupununi Cattle Trail would be put back into the Estimates, so that the Trail would con tinue.

colleagues rais.ed The Chairman: Just a moment.

For my own guidance, I do not want to go back to another item.

Mr. Tello: The only means of bringing it up is under "Transport and Travelling."

It is not a head.
It is not a head.

Ttte Cbairnian: Yotl are not going to bring it up again, or rather, refer to it again?

Mr. Tello: No, Sir.

Motion negatived.

The Chairman: The Moti9fi is lost.

We will pass on to the next item.

Mr. Davis: I myself have tried to get the Government to make a statement afitl all I have been able to get from the Minister of Natural Resources is con- - I· 383 Appropri{l_tion Bill 17THFEBRUARY, 1959 B .11dget Debate 3,&4 tenipJ~qJ~ ~il~<;:.e, ip.

my opj.nion.
my opj.nion.

I would like to voice my objection: to thi$ attj.tude, bec_ause I feel the ma,tter is one of great importanGe.

I do not know what the Minister or •the Government has to hide.

Why -sheuld ·the Minister adopt such.

a hush-hush attitude ?

Is it because Govern.men~ is suffering from a certain amount of disquietude of mind for what I consider to be its misdeed in taki,ng 0ut from this amount <to keep open the Cattle Trail?
It is, let us say, the only trail from the CitJ to <the Interior, on to Brazil.

the Estimates Quite recently we heard the hon.

Membe_r for Demerara River (Mr.

Bow man) urging this Council to recommend to Government the sending of a trade mission to B.razil, and more recently His Excellency the Governor suggesting to the Canadian mission that Canada sho1.1ld use Br,itish Gui_ana as the gateway to I?ut here it is th,at we are asked B.r,azil.
sboi:Jly aJter .to approve of the deletion .of this item from the Estimates.

In other words it is not proposed to continue this the purpose of • vote of $ I 8,000 for keeping the Rupununi cattle trail open.

As the hon.

Nominated Member, M,.r.

r~no, h~s said, th,is .

matter was dis .c,ussed in Finance Committee wh,ere the definite statement :was m1:1de .tl,lat t.Q.e iteµi vv.01uld be recommitted and a definite ans:wer would lJe given one :way or the l 9._o not know if it _is in ,lceeping otper.
with a policy, but we hay_e bad no fur:ther int;in;\a.~i9n .on the matter, but a protracted f;ar/y 41 this ,debate I tried to silence.

poin1.t out t.o -hon.

lv,tembers the .s.~tuation 1tlw.t js lik~y to -~ris~ if the tr.ail is not rn,a,intJJ.ine~, :and l w.ould like .to stress one or two more points.

The Rupununi is .divided into .two savannahs~north and south.
By some .tacit agreemen·t between the .ranchers in the district certain small and medium ranchers in one of the sav~n ·nahs -use air transport wbile thi& Com pany .and other small pro_cl,ue;ers -µse the trail as \Vell _as ajr traqspo,rt.

It :is true that -a ,gentleman, Mr. Excel, who So/les himself as -a F:at ·Stock Officer, came here and went 9~yond his terms of reference to point out that the bringing .of .cat.tie thro.ugb #le tn~il w~~ not as profitable as the transportation of beef by air.
His jo:b w_as to judge the condition of animals and look after their preparation· for inai-ket:ing, bu<t he delved into the field of economics and tried to point out that bringing cattle through the trail was disadvantageous to the produc ers.

I say that his figures are com pletely wrong, and I am ;µmos t certain that the Minister of Natural Respufces, being the careful m,an I know ,him to be, must have consulted his technical officers and found them to be incorrect.
· · .the ,they a.re the officer In his diagnosis in weight when in ques,tion omitted two important features .

to say One mistake he made was that animals a.v.eraging 400 lbs.

lost brought 1Lbs.

.60 trail.

People who have tihro.ugh had years of practical experience and .talk~ng about, know wba,t say that ,the a:ve_rage loss .of weight is 30 lbs., and .that is the figw:e wbiah has be.en accepted by the Department .of Agricul It is the figure .which was accepted ture.
by the ad hoc .Committ~e .on livestock on which I sat.

Apart from .that be did not take into consideration the offal and hides of the animals which come through tl;ie trail.

When animals are slaughtered the offal and hides in Georgetown sold and converted are completely into money.

It is true that the hide is sold .at the low price of four ce_nts per lb., but it is still worth something.

B~si~es that the liver, .heart, tongue; .~tc.


·have !\Orne value, but those figu_r~ have i:i.ot been ta·ken into account by -Mr. );;.it9_el's ·That is excusa:ble, recommendations.

because he does not know su@.~ient i,t~o~t the set-up.

The hon.

Minister of Tnide and Industry knows· !hat ·h1dei, :h~ve .sel dom 1been _shipped to 9t:9_r.getpw.~ beca:~1se the pxjce 1s only four cents per ·lb.

while the air freight is 6 1,j c_ents pir ·lb.

.

It m1~ I fact sh1ppf d :Rup~nuni.
arnve is ~herefore .a simp_l_e ecsmo :why hides are ' _n.9_t ~.e:i,i;ig the to Georgeto:',Yn _T-h~ '•he~rt a~d · 1ton_g~1e in a b_y arr m Geo~getown from • __.___ --... 385 Appwpriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 386 ... [MR. DAVIS] fairly good state of preservation, but that is not the case in regard to liver, which deteriorates rapidly through excessive handling, and the Food Inspector some times condemns a whole shipment, and frequently as much as 60 per cent.

is con demned.
is con demned.

Mr. Excel did not take all these into consideration.

Animals factors which come through the return of between $15 and $17 per animal above the amount recovered per animal from beef shipped by air.

This is a statement of fact.

to Georgetown trail give a The next point I wish to make, and with as much vigour as l can muster, is the fact that it is my conscientious opinion that air transport cannot handle all the cargo that comes from the Rupu I tried to point this out to the nuni.
Council before, and perhaps it would be well if I did it again.

I believe that the air freight charge on beef is 6½ cents per lb., but it is dependent upon a continuous up-flow of freight.

If that continuous up flow does not take place the shippers have to pay for a charter flight which increases the freight rate per pound.
The result is therefore an increase in the price of beef as it arrives in Georgetown, an in-• crease in the cost of living, and as a natural follow-up my friend on my right (Mr. Tello) will make a noise in this Council for a cost of living allowance.

It the trail, places is not possible Another point I would like to make is that the air transport facilities will not be able to cope with any increased ship ments of beef.
I have seen no provision in the Estimates for an increase in the is my view number of planes.

to bring if that, it cattle like through Tacama, Mara and New Amsterdam to carry on, will and there is also our trade with Surinam.

We have established a market in Surinam and we should try to keep it.

The hon.

Minister of Natural Resources knows If trade between that as well as I do.

these places is cut off it will be a retro It must be again remem grade step.
bered that only three weeks ago this trail was used by Government for sending it difficult find eight or ten young bulls from Ebini to the Rupununi.

It is accepted that animals lose weight when driven down the trail.

How ever, in consultation with Government and its technical advisers, large pastures with pangola grass have been established I understand that when at W aranana.
the ranchers allow their cattle to remain there for a few days before shipment to Georgetown it is possible for cattle to re gain as much as twenty to thirty pounds I do not know whether these in weight.

facts have been placed before the hon.

Minister, and I feel it is my duty to bring them forcibly before him so that Mem bers of the Government will know what they are doing.

The Minister of Communications and Works (Mr. Ram Karran): What have they done?
Mr. Davis: I have already made the point that this trail is used by Gov ernment as well as small traders who are unable to pay high air freight rates for transporting sheep, horses, cattle and so on.

Those are the points I would like to stress, and I hope that they will receive the consideration of the Government.

Mr. Fredericks: I would like to endorse what has been said by the hon.

In Nominated Member on my right.


Finance Committee, he supplied us with figures to show conclusively that bring ing cattle through the trail is much more than by air freight from beneficial Lethem to Atkinson Field.

However, I do not agree with him when he says that there is not sufficient capacity in the B.G.

Airways for the transportation of beef and cattle from the I have had the good fortune Rupununi.
to travel to the Rupununi about two weeks ago, and I was surprised to know that on at least two return flights the planes were almost empty.

I was told that this frequently happens.

While B.G.

Airways has the capacity to transport cat tle to Atkinson Field, it does not have the facility to meet the needs of other centres like New Amsterdam, etc.

We have seen quite recently that the air frieght on beef has been reduced very I believe that this is more or slightly.

- ...

I. ,.
- ...

I. ,.

387 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 38S less to lull the ranchers into a state of false security and, if and when the trail is closed, the freight will go up.

During the past few years this Gov ernment has spent a few hundred thous and dollars in locating a route from Georgetown to connect up with the Rupu nuni, and whether more than one route is possible is still doubtful.

A cattle trail was located and opened at consider If this able expense to Government.
$18,000 is not included in the Estimates for the maintenance of this trail, it will become overgrown and blocked up with bush so as to prevent easy access from Atkinson Field via the trail to the Rupu nuni.

I do not think such action will be advisable because the only other outlet It will be is by using the B.G.

Airways.

very unwise to close this trail, and I re commend to Government not to close it in order to save the paltry sum involved.
I am sure that this sum could be saved from the actual surveying cost of the new proposed route without affecting the pro gramme.

I ask Government to leave the trail open.

The Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Beharry) : I do not agree with the hon.

Nominated Member, Mr. Davis, that if Government does not continue to subsidize cattle trail the Rupununi the cost of living will go up.

Mr. Davis: On a point of correc If the money is voted to keep the tion .

trail open, how can it be called a sub sidy ?


Mr. Beharry: That is not a point of correction.

The hon.

Member is too previous.

I do not visualize the cost of living rising and the price of meat going up if Government does not continue to subsidize the upkeep of the Rupununi I would be the last person cattle trail.

to subscribe to any increase in the cost of living.

I have been a firm believer in producing more and making the items available to the consumers of this coun try at cheap prices.
To produce more so that we can all share in the abundance of things at cheap prices will always be the policy of this Government.

I cannot follow the argument of the hon.

Nominated Member, Mr. Davis.

If Government withdrew the subsidy it does not necessarily mean that the trail will be closed.

I do not visualize that this trail will be closed.

When the subsidy for this trail was made by Government I said that it was a move in the right direc tion.
Government promoted the develop ment of the cattle industry in the Rupu nuni Savannahs, and today the industry is on a sound footing.

For many years one of the largest companies in the Rupununi was unable to pay a dividend, but today it is in a position to pay a handsome dividend to its shareholders.

The ranchers are there fore doing well financially.
The cattle population in the area has risen because of Government's foresight in improving cattle and encouraging the ranchers to increase and improve theirs.

Some years ago the St. Ignatius Station was established, at considerable expense to this Government, in order to assist the ranchers in producing better breeds of cattle - breeds that would give more beef and make the industry eco nomical as well as profitable.
Govern ment is not abandoning the ranchers in the Rupununi; Government is merely saying that the ranchers are now on a sound footing and it is high time for them to carry the upkeep and maintenance of the trail.

Government has not decided to close the trail, or to prevent people from driving cattle through it.

.

The position is that the ranchers are in a position to take care of themselves, and that is the reason why Government has decided to withd raw this subsidy of $18,000.
In withdrawing this subsidy, I can assure the hon.

Member that the Ru pununi will get more than $18,000 worth the programme ·Government has from been carrying on there.

Government is endeavouring to make the ranchers more conscious of the need for producing better breeds of cattle, and it is accel erating a programme to increase the types of cattle in the Rupununi.
Today we have displayed our concern -~ 389 Appropriation BiU 17THFEBRUARY, 1959 lJud~(J.t Debate 390 [MR. BE.l;[f}il,lJlY] .order to assis.t in another direction in these cattle farmers .

I do no.t think it will create an uimece.ssary hardship or too great a burde.n, o.

):henvise I would readily agree with the hon.

Member and ask that -the jtem.

be included in tl)_e Budget.


I ask .this CoJI]lllittee to agree wjth me that it should not be included, for it is the duty of G9vernm~nt to assist people to the point where they .can assist them 'Selves.

Mr. Davis: May f be p.ai:doned if I correct the hon.

Minister in a .r.

:~.rta.in ~s sential?

He speaks of "subsidy" again and again.

There is no subsLct.y as I understand it, .but money for .a ~oad to :be mah1tained b.y GoYemment.
Mr. Beharry: To a point of correction: ,it is not that Gp;v~rnn)ent s-p,ends this money on ths: ;tr.~il; tl).,is money is given to ranchers and they keep the trail open.

l\t(r. Ditl'.is : It is not I wb.o need cor recting; it is the hon.

Minister.

He does .noi .Jing:w ~ facts.

This $ 18,000 was hand\;lP to t,h~ Co.mpany as Goyernm.ent's agents, becaµs.e if it was h.anded to the Public Works Departn;J.eij.t it would have cost Government three times as much to lo,ok afteJ .the trai,l.
Because of the fact that the road was being kept open the Company went ahead and did certain things, in consul •tation with Government.

About 1955-56 this Company initiated the move to get Santa Gertrudis cattle into this country, a nd Government approached the Com .pany t o import -some on -its beha:lf too, which the Company did.

Again, in 1956, -Government's this Company acted as agents in bringing a number of Braha min cattle from Jamaica.
When these bulls are put -in the Rupununi they stray and -other the benefit of t hese 1bu1ls.

After a time it was found that by reason of the fact that the Com p any and Government 1brought down these -bulls, it was costing Government less.

ranchers get All the credit 10 !Government, hut .do not let us confuse ourselves as the Minis ,te.r ~s .doing.

J:h.e Minister told us about m,on~y being providaj.

jQr C!

!,ttl.e fa,rming.


The mo.m:y pr.ovided last year, $140,000, was for a ptQgr,amme concerning dairy cattle essentially.

The Minister has come ba.cl< ~is )\ear with anothe,r programme ciµ}.

:ing fo.r $103,000, I think, speaking fro,rp memory.

Agam this is for dairy .cattle.

I.f it i~ not so, I chall~~ge the Min ister to tell us.

Pairy and beef are two diifferent types .of ~r.a((les, although they airs: P.9tb e;:~ns:~ned -~-ith .ca~tle.

J»r.

B~~ ;: I ,U,lir).~ tp.e hon.


Mem I <lo p,ot mean to be.r is a ibjt c.onfu§,ed.

1c.as-t ar;iy -re,fl~~tion .en tb_e b9n .

.,MeI;D,ber, 1bJ;1tt it ;is .~ppr~i_ated that wJiat w,as ,ear ;l,as.t Yt i!X f9r the dairy industry, m.s1;rlc,_~ w_as m fl Qkff~rent prp gra~e.
Th ere .are .two it,.yp~s ,c;>j ,apjniaJ that ,tb~ D ep artwen.t h as ,c01;wentt:at~d .oi:i., the be,ef 1type ~md -the dairy ty@.e, Tibe l;lt# type is r eared in ilihe Rupum,ini say_anuabs _and jJ i_s ,JJ.Ot trl,le .to say •that .G0vemm.eAt joiIJ.aj wi~ the R,upununi O_eyelop.ment C9mp_any in oi:oler 1to .imp,.o,rt pegigree bµlls ,into tb.is -c.o.u,ntcy, afte,r ,t.he C.o.mpany had us~_d its initiativ.e :in rt.his r.es.pe.cJ:.

l t ~as tl).e p!J)er way around. '


'ifhe Rup.ununi D_eyelopro.e.nt Com- 1pa-ny, dleJi>.J.es.enting tl:le lar.g_es-t ranchers, having app.i:ox.im.ately 3.2.,.0.00 head o.f ,cattle, was ,enco:uraged by th..e Dep;rrt iJJlilent of Agriculture to secure a -few bulls of their own.

The majority of the Santa G ertrudis cattle were brought here by the Depattment .of Agricultur.e, and if the hon.
M ember is saying that all the ranch er s ne~ded to do was to bring bulls and let them go around the area, t:h,e.n the programme of the Agriculture De ,p.antment -would have been an easy one.

All we would hav.e needed to do was to buy a few hundred bulls and loose them in :the area- the Department would not have ,needed to put up a Station there .
We are encouraging cattle farmers to wire-fence .their rauc;hes, ancl we are carrying out a researc.h programme, en couraging a rise in the p.i;o,duction of beef, and so on.

I .would like to reiterate that we are .not closing ,this trail.

I S]i>Oke to •the iMan aging-Birector of this Company with respect to this V:Ote of $18,000 that is to I I ,, .

391 Apptopriatioit /Jill i11H FEDRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 392 b'e withdrawn, and he assured me that tliis would: not: clos·e tlie trail.
Some of the arguments I put forward today were also put forward to ,the Managing-Direc tor.

I am aware that at one time the Company was not in a: position to pay a dividend, but in the past couple oi years the ranchers could afford it.

I do not see why we should still have to use taxpayers' money to assist people who are in a posi tion to assist themselves today.

Mr. Jackson: One wonders whether the Government at any time will ever In learn to display correct reasoning.
Finance Committee, when this item, the maintenam:e of the Rupununi Cattle f raii, was being discussed, the men who had a working knowledge of the situa tion drew Government's attention to the injustice which had been or would be done to those concerned by the with drawal of the $18,000 a year, and it was pointed out that this money was being used solely for the purpose of .

replacing bridges which were destroyed from time to time by the I:ieavy.

rainfal1 which the R1:1p1.

:;mini experienced.


reason why Although Mr. Tasker and Mr. Davis gave justifiable reasons to the Govern ment for the retention of the provision on the Estimates, it was not.

Today the Minister has given it would not prevail.

It seems to me that the reason which he has advanced is that the Company is now able to· pay dividends to its shareholders.
But it goes further than that-to a time before his entry into the political field, when some one kept denouncing the provision as a waste of taxpayers' money and it should nElw be withdrawn, Now that the oppor those _who felt thus tunity is afforded, have applied the axe, caring not for the • i·esuH.

reside in the .

Thousands of -people ~upununi area.

Is it not the r~sponsi bility of Coverhment _to ptovide f_acilities fot people who liye iii that area?
There is no toad from Georgetown to Vreed en-Hoop, so Government runs a ferry across the river.

There is no road Iead ~ilg tti the Essequibo islan~s, but Govern ffient funs a steatnet setvice.

'f.here is no road to New Amsterdam, but Govern ment runs a forry service across the Be-r bice River.

It therefore stands to reason that Government is responsibie for the · transportation of people and things.
Is it reasonable therefore, to say that the Rupununi Devel_opment -Company is now aole to pay dividends to its share .

hold~rlli and therefore the provision of $18 1000 is no longer necessary?· It s~erp.s to me that t_he _reasoning is very bad, for if the Public Wor_ks :Department could not be given charge of maintaining bridges.
in the Rupununi because it would have cost iT6t only three times' mote but probably ten times' more, then the body responsi&te fot doing it iilstead of that Depattrtient shMld not be thus treated, and it sfroold be regarded that the work ers up thete should be given good road facilities.

The difficulties which the Com pany expe•rienced in the past ate of no concern to the present Govetttrtlefit.

It costs mote than $18,000 to main tain those ~ridges.
If the Company did not pay dividends to its shareholders in preVi9us yfars it is because it had to speiia tnote than the $ l 81000 to main mitt tlie midges in the R.upununi.

The suih of $ l 8;000 is a mete bagatelle com pared with the large sums G<wernment spends in other directions.- The ho{}.

· Minister says that the trail will n9bbe dosed.

Certainly it will not be Glosed, but the hon.


Nominated Member; Mr. Davis, said iii Finance Committee that among the people who use the cattle trail are small ranchers who cannot afford to use air tnmsport, and I am assured that tnany people use the trait not only for driving cattle but for other purposes.

If, therefore, Government' withdraws this subsidy of $18,000 then it should sp~nd the trioney in providing a road to enable peop1e ftoh1 the Ru pun uni to travel .
to other parts of the Colony tq transact their routine business.

Is it any wonder that for North Western District (Mr. Campbell) speaks about the injustices done to the Amerin dian people?

They live in large numbers iri the Rupununi and would have to charter a plane to come to Georgetown.

In cases of serious illness a plane is sent the hon.

Member .. 1 --;- ·._:;;:;;::::.:,:.

I ....

;:_;.


:., .. 393 Appropriation Bill 17THFEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 394 [MR. JACKSON] from Georgetown to bring the sick person to the Georgetown Hospital, but that is not good enough.

Government .
Government .

should shoulder its responsibilities not only to the people in the coastal areas, but to the Amerindian population as well, and it is a greater responsibility because those people have been made to move· from one part of the Colony to another to eke out a livelihood.

This act of the Government is another bit of evi dence of its failure to deal on a broad basis with the inhabitants of this country.

Mr. Fredericks : The hon.


Minister has laid much emphasis upon the work which is being done at St. Ignatius, but while I do not claim to know everything about the Rupununi I did enquire, when I was there, about the things mentioned by the Minister in connection with the experiments by the Department of Agriculture at St. Ignatius.

The ranchers were dissatisfied with the work done at St. Ignatius, and it is only quite recently that they have seen some pro gress being made at that farm.
Experi ments with grasses are still in the experi mental stage, and so far as the wiring is concerned this has not been implemented in any part of the Rupununi, I am told.

reasons why Government should restore the amount of $18,000, and I would suggest that it should levy a toll on each head of cattle passing over the trail, which would be a means of recouping the expenditure on the upkeep of the trail.

It is only a sug gestion.


Members on this side of the Table are unanimous in their desire that the item of $18,000 should not be deleted from the Estimate.

We have heard many three Mr. Beharry : I do not intend to speak at any length because I have already spoken on the question of assistance to the ranchers in the Rupununi.

The hon.

Member for Georgetown North (Mr. Jackson) said that it is a small amount, and asked why shouldn't Government as sist the ranchers.
We are going to spend approximatety $93,000 this year on St. Ignatius to assist the ranchers, and it is untrue to say that Government is being sectional in its agricultural development.

To say that the cattle trail should be kept open for the Amerindians to use is no justifiable reason why Government should spend $18,000.

The Amerindians can use the trail whether Government spends that money or not, for it will still be there for them to use, because it is not going to be closed.
Being in a better financial position today the ranchers will keep the trail open and the Amerindians will still have the use of it.

I cannot see that the Amerindians will be prevented from coming to Georgetown, and I can not agree that Government should con tinue to subsidize people who can afford to help themselves.
Mr. Burnham: I have some sympathy for the Minister of Natural Resources who lacks his usual enthusiasm in re plying to this particular debate, and I hope that my shrewd suspicion is not correct-that he is really with us but, for certain other reasons, he is defending this step by his Government.
rehograde Taking the opportunity of the Commit tee stage to make a policy statement which should have been done on the Second Reading of the Bill, he was at pains to explain that Government was doing a lot for dairy fanning and things of that sort, but unlesss I am more cpaque than I thought I w2s, I know that Government will be spending this year $36,000 less than it did last year on dairy farming extension.
So I cannot see what is the purpose of all this talk about dairy farm extension when Gov ernment is going to spend less money, and why dairy farming extension should have been introduced into this debate on the retention of the cattle trail.

.

Thei;e i~ another thing that bothers me.

The good Minister remarked that the ranchers have undertaken to keep to keep the trail the trail going; yes, going, but has he had any guarantee from those gentlemen that they will keep the price of beef the moment?
They are businessmen, and if they have to spend more money if they feel that the trail is necessary, we must not credit them with being philanthro pists as well, to hope that they will keep the price of beef at the particular point :where it is at . '

395 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 396 where it is at the moment.

Let us have the other guarantee, because if that is not forthcoming it will mean that the cost of living will go up.

the prices of beef.
the prices of beef.

Mr. Beharry: I do not visualize a rise Prices are in usually regulated by supply and demand.

There has been increased production in the beef industry, and we have been ship ping beef direct from the Rupununi to Gaudeloupe and Surinam.

There has heen an over-production of beef.

Imme diately after this Government took office in 1957 one of the first acts of the Minis try of Natural Resources was to remove the embargo on the shipment of beef out of the Colony.
When it was lifted there was a howl in the newspapers that there would be a shortage of beef because the Minister of Natural Re sources had removed the embargo with out even considering the normal re quirements of the beef-eating community in British Guiana.

But instead of there being a shortage, we have been exporting more and more beef, and I want to give an assurance that the cattle trail is not going to be closed.

The ranchers are in a position today to take care of the trail.
I am asking the Council to agree that the amount of $18,000 should not be re · tained.

Mr. Burnham: The Minister was at pains to say that in spite of the removal of the sum of $3 6,000 from the Estmates Governme nt is showing an increased in terest in dairy farming extension, but I am saying that that is not so, because there is a decrease in the vote.

I want to know what ~arantee he has that the price of beef is not _going to be sent up.
The lifting of the embargo against expor t:ttion is an inc~ntive to raise prices, be• cause better onces can be obtained out side, and more load is being out on the ranchers to maintain the trail.

Can the Minister answer these questions?

[Pause.]

Ml'.

Burnham: It means that the Min ister cannot answer.

Mr. Beharry: I have dealt with the question of beef already, and I believe that supply will regularize the price.
There is an over supply of beef at the moment, and I do not visualize that there will be an increase in the price of this item.

With respect to the Dairy Expansion Scheme-the hon.

Member for George town Central is pressing me for a reply, but there was an extensive debate on this Head already.

It does not necessarily mean that because Government will be spending $103,000 as against $140,000 that the programme will not be acceler ated.

We have a large number of heifers at the Station for distribution.
We hope to reduce expenditure by co-ordination and production efficiency.

I assure the hon.

Member for George town Central that the Dairy Expan sion Programme will increase year after year.

Last year we had doubled the quantity of milk than the previous year, and I want to assure him that this year we will make a record production over last year's supply.

Mr. Burnham: I am grateful to the hon.


Minister of Natural Resources for assuring us that he, like the political Houdini of our times, by spending less money will achieve greater efficiency.

Events will prove whether the Minister is right or wrong, but what I am alarmed about is the Minister's lack of know ledge of what is taking place in the m eat market.

May I inform him that meat that used to be 44c.

per pound is now sold at 50c.

per pound.


Of course the Minister does no t eat meat, and he may not know the price of this item.

Mr. Beharry: On a point of correc tion.

I eat meat, and I do not know why the hon.

Member should make that re mark.

Perhaps he is buying better cuts.

Mr. Burnham : The quality remains the same, but people are paying 6c.

more per pound.

M r. Benn : That is a lie!


Mr. Burnham : I shall ask the "Minis ter of Ignorance" to stand on his feet 397 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 398 I I [MR. BURNHAM] and speak.

The cuts are 6c.

per pound more, which belies the Minis ter's allegations that the supply is greater than the demand.

We had better ask Mr. Davis about this matter, because he knows more about it than we do.

Mr. Davis: Can the hon.


Minister of Natural Resources tell us where we can find the provision for improving the I beef and cattle trade in this Budget?

challenge the statement about the com modity being in greater supply than de mand, because I know that beef is getting scarce and the price in very many shops is now 50c.

per pound.

The Minister of Labour, Health and Housing (Mrs. Jagan): How much are you selling it for?

The Chairman: Order, please.

We will not make progress this way.


Mr. Tello: I would like to com mend the hon.

Minister of Natural Re sources for his foresight when he accepted certain advice and lifted the embargo.

It is now a little over a year since he has made that experiment.

So far bringing beef and cattle by air has been successful; it has kept us fully supplied, and we have been able to capture a market outside of I maintain that it is still in the Colony.

I do not know its experimental stage.


whether the price of beef will be affected by our asking the cattle dealers to main tain the trail.

The experiment is in too much of a youthful stage to assume that correctly.

Here is a dealer"· (Mr. Davis) in cattle and beef, and he warns us that we may lose our foreign trade in cattle between the Corentyne Districts and Surinam if the additional expenditure for the upkeep of the trail has to be carried by private companies.

The hon.
The hon.

Minister should transfer the amount voted last year under the Head of Public Works.

He must accept that it is the respon,sibility of the Government to maintain any road or trail frequently used by the public.

To say that because the merchants of George town have become prosperous and are paying big dividends Government must consider taking off the railways or main taining the roads to the East Coast, is going too far.

The hon.
The hon.

Minister of Natural Re sources says that before the ranchers be came prosperous the sum of $18,000 had been set aside to subsidize the upkeep of the trail, but because the companies can now afford to pay big dividends they can take care of the trail themselves.

Is the Minister endeavouring to block further progress by deleting this subsidy of $18,000 from the Estimates?

Of course the hon.

Minister of Natural Resources and the hon.


Minister of Communications and · Works are closely connected in this matter.

I say that no progressive Government will gamble on sole transportation by an air service while it is still in an experimental stage.

Yesterday we were told that the air service is still in its experimental stage to have it was necessary and that good connections with the interior rnd the coastland.
It must be remembered that there is no obligation on the part of the cattle dealers to keep this trail open if they do not find it profitable to do so.

The working-class people fear and know from experience that the capitalists never carry extra expenses, and they lose no time in passing on the burden to the I think the hon.

Minister consumer.

should give this experiment a further trial for another year.
It is better to spend $18,000 and complete a good job than to gamble with the economic future of this country by this amount.

trying to save Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I am very much surprised at the attitude this Gov ernment has adopted regarding the main tenance and upkeep of the cattle trail.

On the contrary I thought that Govern ment would have taken steps to improve the cattle trail and make it a road to accommodate lorries.

I am sure the hon.
I am sure the hon.

Minister has traversed the area and he knows that it is possible to build a road there.

There was a time when cattle came down the Demerara River and then on to 399 Appropriation Bill i7THFEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 400 Georgetown.

Today you have to take cattle to Tacama, then by boat to New Amsterdam and on to Georgetown.

When that route is followed there is always a considerable reduction in the weight of It is the duty of the Govern the cattle.
ment to make every opportunity available to those persons who are interested in the development of the Interior and to make roads available for the cattle trade.

The cattle trade could be used for extending roads in the interior.

This is an area which has vast potentialities, and it is awaiting the plough as well as the coco I know that certain things nut plants.

that can be produced there cannot be produced in any other area.
I recommend to the Government that it will be in the interest of the Colony to keep the cattle trail in good condition, and to see whether something cannot be done to improve the trail.

I hope that the time is not distant when we will be able to travel by road from here to Mackenzie, and from Mackenzie to Itoma, etc.

These roads will pass very near to the cattle trail and they could I am sure it is pos easily be joined up.

sible to build a road right on to the Ru pununi.


I speak from knowledge, and I can tell the Minister of the practical possibilities that exist in the area.

The building of a road from Georgetown to Mackenzie is also a practical proposition that must be realized within a decade.

If we allow the existing trail to deteriorate it will cost us much more to rebuild it later on.
I do not think that Government should ask private enterprise to carry the cost of the maintenance of the cattle trail, because it will only act according If private enter to its own judgment.

prise fails to keep the trail in proper con dition it will close automatically.

Gov ernment is responsible to the commanity for the development of the Interior.

The Minister of Community Devel opment and Education (Mr. Benn): I beg to move that the question be put.

the question put.

motion.


I beg to withdraw my Question put, and agreed to.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move that Mr. Jackson: "Miscellaneous sub-head I, item 17 - $2,500"-be reduced by $1.

I am mov ing this Motion in order to say something as a result of certain information which I have received.

It is true that water can not rise higher than its level, and that man cannot rise higher than the level of his conscience.
Therefore it is reason able to admit that in our society one will find people whose mentality is high and others whose mentality is based on a slavish idea.

You will find people whose mentality is on a high plane, and others who, because of ignorance or a belief that what they are doing is correct will - The Chairman: What is the point?
Mr. Jackson: The point is that yesterday when we were discussing the re-designation of Agricultural Otlicers and Agricultural Instructors, I said I had a shrewd suspicion that the intention was to reduce the status of those officers.

I have been informed that it is the inten tion of the Government or the Head of the Department of Agriculture that Agri cultural Officers should learn to drive the performance of their tractors duties.

in The Chairman: under this Head?


Does that come Mr. Jackson: The sub-head is "Miscellaneous", Sir, and it can take in a number of things.

Mr. Beharry: The Member's ignor ance is apparent.

One cannot buy a tractor for $2,000.

This sum is for inci dentals - the cleaning of the toilets, and so on.

like soap, brushes for Mr. Tello: I do not know why the hon.
Minister of Community -Develop~ ment and Education is so anxious to have Mr. Jackson: Mr. Chairman, what ever is under "Miscellaneous" can be charged at any.

one moment for some- 401 Appropriation Bill i 7TH F EBRUARY, i959 Budget Debate 402 [MR. J ACKSON] thing, and I am saying that under this item, "Miscellaneous" this can happen .

The Chairman: You will have to convince me on this.

Mr. Jackson: It does relate to that, Sir.

The Chairman: It does not say so.

Mr. Beharry: water pitcher, and so on.


Ice in the offi::e The Chairman: You may find ,-;omc other Head, but I do not think you can raise it under this one.

Mr. Jackson: With all due respect to you, Sir; this is the point: these people ;ire going to use their water pitchers.
Mr. Beharry: Once we live in a society where men are dependent on each other, and each man's activity relates to the social existence of the other, we can that what is stretch that argument - good for one section of one community is good for another section of the com munity.

The Chairman: If Ministers and other Members get up to speak when I am ruling on a question, I am going to give unbridled licence to everybody to If the speak, and they will never finish.
Minister would like to continue, I would sit and listen.

Mr. Beharry: I am sorry, Sir, The Chairman: Sometimes the de bates last longer, when Members on one side or the other jump up, apparently to rule, and then I sit back and let them get along.

Have hon.

Members finished with the item?

[Pause].

PROGRESSIVE FARMERS' SCHEME Mr, Jackson: I beg to move the "Progressive reduction of sub-head 28 - I anticipate Farmers' Sc~eme"-by $1.

this is the Scheme in which Agricultural Assistants will work.
I said on Saturday that I had a suspicion that the intention of the Minister and his advisers in changing the designation of these officers had something sinister in it which would not be in the best interests of the worker.

Mr. Beharry: I rise again to a point of correction.

The hon.

Member is asking for the reduction of sub-bead 28, but if it is reduced, this would affect the model demonstration farms which we intend to set up all over the country.
I do not know how he can bring in such matters as the designation of Agricultural Instructors.

He is dealing with some thing already dealt with.

The Chairman: As far as I under stand him, this is not altogether divorced If I from "Agricultural Instructors".

think he is not speaking on the sub-head, I shall so say.

Mr. Jackson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


In farming, whetl1er pro gressive or unprogressive, we will have to use Agricultural Assistants, and in this Instructors will Scheme, Agricultural have to be used.

Therefore the Agricul tural Instructors, now designated Agri cultural Assistants, will have to learn to drive tractors.

That is something that is not part and parcel of the conditions of work of those people.
Nothing should be done by the Minister or the Head of Department in any fashion to change the terms and conditions of employment of any officer, and I am suggesting that the Chief Secretary, under whose Port folio this comes, is hardly aware of what is happening.

We have a right to defend them here.

Any attempt made by the Minister of Natural Resources and the Director of Agriculture to make these men drive tractors is an infringement and involves conditions of which they are ignorant.
There is no coverage if they suffer injuries through an accident.

They do not come under the benefits of the Work men's Compensation Ordinance.

Gov ernment would have to take a new look at the provisions of that Ordinance and ensure coverage .

pefore any of these officers sit in any tractor whatsoever.

'- 40 3 Appro priation Bill l 7n1 F EB RUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 404 That is important.
It is all well and good for Government to say we must be patriotic and nationalistic - - The Chief Secretary: On a point of I do not quite follow the hon.

order.

Member.

What he is taking to be an infringement in the conditions of employ ment of these people may not be one at all.

As far as I am aware, there is nothing in the conditions of employment of Agricultural Assistants or Agricultural Instructors which says they shall not drive a tractor.

Mr. Jackson: They have never driven tractors before.
Mr. Beharry: This has never been brought to my attention before.

I do not know where the hon.

Member got his information from.

We spent one hour or more debating the item, "Agricultural Engineers", during which time the hon.

Member said that one Agricultural En gineer was insufficient, and I agreed with him.

But a man must specialize in the handling of machinery before machinery can be handed into his care.

I do not know why he is wasting this Committee's time.
Mr. Jackson: The Minister is not aware of the fact that these people will have to drive tractors.

He has admitted that it is not part of the duty of Agri cultural Assistants.

The Chairman: That should satisfy you.

Mr. Jackson: Thank you, Sir.

shall keep on looking at the situation.

I Mr. Ram Karran: I wonder if the hon.

Member has any objection to the Agricultural Assistants driving cows.

Mr. .Jackson: Mr. Chairman, a cow knows a cow.


Mr. .Tai Narine Singh: May I at this stage ask what will · be the acreage of the model demonstration farms, what is the nature of the crops to be grown on each farm, and whether the Minister proposes at any given time in the future to let the public know the results?

Mr. Bebarry: I really thought that the hon.

Member fo r Georgetown South would have asked that the provision should be increased; instead, he just wants an explanation.
But in answer to him: the crops are to be selected according to the agricultural economy of the district.

H the economy of the dis trict selected is dependent on rice, then the emphasis will be definitely on rice.

The size of the crop will be dependent upon the funds available, and the type of crop will also be determined by the size of the crop.
Rice-growing can be done in order to show people what can be achieved by scientific means, and gen erally, it can be shown how increased production of a specific crop would affect the economy of a district.

I would rather say that the crop will be determined by th e economy of the district, and the size of the plot by the type of crop to be grown.

Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I am a little sur prised that the Minister proposes to have on these demonstration farms only such crops as are prevailing in the area.
I thought demonstration farms were in tended for the introduction of new crops and advanced agricultural methods.

I am not entitled to move any increase in ex penditure but I would suggest that such an increase would receive the whole hearted support of Members on this side if it were put forward by the Govern ment, because with $400 for 40 fa rms nothing much can be done.

Perhaps a portion of the $ 18,000 withdrawn from the R upununi trail might be put into this venture.
It would require at least $2,000 to establish tl1ese model farms.

Amendment withdrawn.

C ENT RAL PRODUCE D EPOT, I NCLUDING H AM AND BACON F ACTORY-PROCESSl NG F ACTORY Mr .

.Jackson: I move the reduction of sub-head 29 by $1 in order to make 405 Appropriation Bill 17TH f' EBRVARY, 1959 Budget Debate 406 [MR. JACKSON] some general comments on the Central Marketing Organisation.

I am sure the Minister of Natural Resources is aware that all is not well with the running of that Division.
Earlier I said that this Marketing Division was set up as a war time measure, but since the war it has expanded considerably, and no attempt has been made by the Government to act in accordance with that extension.

As far as I know there is only one sub divsion outside of Georgetown, which is in New Amsterdam, so that it is not possible for the Marketing Division to reach the entire community to dispose of the articles it purchases from the far mers.

The Chairman: I observe that you mention New Amsterdam.
You are therefore dealing with sub-heads 29 and 30.

Mr. Jackson: I said that there is only one sub-division, which is in New Ams I am not dealing with item 30 terdam.

but simply pointing out that there has been no expansion for distribution, as there should have been if Government had given the question of marketing its proper consideration.

What appeared to be a glut in several items of produce last year was not in fact a glut.
The fact is that there was no proper system of dis tribution, so that commodities which had been purchased remained in Georgetown for consumption by the population in Georgetown, except for a small portion which may have been sent to New Ams terdam, if at all any was sent there.

But it happened that out of real necessity the Division despatched some trucks to the East Coast late in the afternoon for the distribution of produce in order to save the lot from being thrown overboard.
That is something which should never happen in a country like ours, and with a Government of the kind we have now in office.

I I There should be an organized system or marketing by which local produce could be sent to all parts of the country within a reasonable time, so that no one section of the community could be ex ploited by people who purchase food- to the Marketing stuffs wholesale from Division and return the country districts to.

sell at retail prices over which there is no control.
The position is that this Marketing Division, which was in tended as a measpre of relief to the con sumer, is not in fact fulfilling its purpose.

Because of this haphazard system of dis tribution it has cost Government $40 per day to hire vehicles to transport these commodities to the East Coast.

I think the time has come when the Minister should prepare some concrete proposal to remedy the situation which occurred last year.

I make this suggestion in all sincerity.


I know that at the Government Pro duce Depot there is a great deal of dis satisfaction among the employees, and I do not know if the hon.

Minister has himself inquired or had some investiga tions made into the problems affecting the workers at that Depot.

I invite him to see that the workers there are given a square deal, and are given justice when they have cause to make any complaint.

Mr. Beharry: I know that the hon.


Member has visions about marketing, therefore I put him on the Commit tee to assist me with the marketing of farmers' produce.

What surprises me is that the hon.

Member says that we only send produce to New Amsterdam, but we send it as far as Skeldon where a D0pot has been established.
We try to distribute local produce to the greatest possible extent, and in addition to that we advertize in the newspapers requesting shopkeepers in the country districts to sell local produce as agents of the Gov ernment Marketing Depot The response to that appeal has not been very good, and arising out of the Committee I men tioned, active consideration is beim given to whether the Government Pro~ duce Depot should not be controlled by a Marketing Board in whic)J. the farm ers would have a greater say in the mar I hope that in keting of their produce.
the corning year we may see this materialize to the benefit of the farmers as well as the consumers.

i- bQpe it will be possible to convert the Government Produce Depot into .

a 1'4.qiketing Board 407 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 408 on which there will be representatives of farmers and consumers.

Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I am not talking about the question of losses.

The Chairman: ls the hon.

Member withdrawing his Amendment?


The Financial Secretary: That is what the vote represents.

Mr. Jackson: Yes, Sir .

Mr. Jai Narine Singh: So far as item (31)-"Wholesale Fish Market $28,259" -: is concerned, I see that there is a reduction by almost $35,000.

This is a matter in which I have considerable in terest and knowledge.

Earlier today the hon.

Minister of Natural Resources gave us a long speech on the surplus of beef.
Of course the Minister knows that if there is a surplus of beef, it would be due largely to the amount of cheap fish available in Georgetown and other parts of the country.

It is true that fish has hcen subsidized.

The Cape St. Mary is here for three years on an experimental tour, and it is responsible for making fish available to us at a cheap rate.

I am alarmed to hear that Government bas decided to reduce this item because the r ave St. Mary is due to leave British Guiana in the near future.
In the light of the present un employment and underemployment situa tion, if fish is not available in large quantities the price will go up.

You will then find the price of beef, pork, chickens and so on going up.

I wonder whether the hon.

Minister of Natural Resources has viewed this matter with the concern with which I have viewed it, and whether he is prepared to reconsider the matter the of replacing Estimates.
At the moment we are paying four times the price people are paving for red fish in Trinidad; the Trinidadians are paying 19c.

per pound and we are paying 76c.

per pound.

I doubt whether the Minister will be able to give us fish cheaper by reducing the provision made in the 1958 Estimates.

the full amount in Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I am telling the hon.

Minister of Natural Resources that he will have to come back here asking for Supplementary Estimates this year.
Do not tell us that you are trying to economize when there is no economizing at all.

Mr. Fredericks: The F isheries Depart ment of any country plays a ve1y import ant and major role in the development of that country; its importance is recog nized and emphasis is placed on this aspect of the country's development to the extent that in very many countries the Department is a separate one and not controlled by the Head of the Depart ment of Agriculture.
I am not suggesting that our F isheries Department should be a separate Department.

I, personally, am in favour of centralization, because it increases efficiency and prevents a lot of duplication of services.

I think that ways and means should be found to help assist the small fisherman in the produc tion drive.

The Industrial Advisory Committee has made concrete recommendations to Government which are intended to im I earnestly prove the fishing industry.
commend to Government the accept ance and implementation of those re commendations as early as possible.

I am of the opinion that the Fisheries Division is helpful in its limited scope, but very much more could be done in that Department.

We know that separate establishments have been created in relation to this Department and they I operate in several parts of the town.
feel that their offices should be located in one place in order to avoid duplication :-i nd save and expenses so far as account i:1g clerks and clerical staff are concerned.

The Financial Secretary: Is the hon.

Member talking about the reduction in the losses at the Fish Market, which he wants to increase?

I am not quite sure.

The hon.

Minister has just referred to the hon.

Member for Georgetown North as a Member of the Marketing Commit tee.

I, too, along with the hon.


Member 409 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 410 [MR. FREDERLCKS] for Georgetown South have been placed on the Fisheries Committee, but I can tell this Council that the Committee has done very little work since its formation by the hon.

Minister.

I would strongly sug gest that the Committee be scrapped, as I can see no useful purpose being served by its continued existence.
If the Govern ment would take my advice and form a new Committee on a different basis, it would be able to take constructive action to rehabilitate the fishing industry.

the officers I am indebted to the hon.

Member for Georgetown North for some of the ob servations he made last year when he was discussing the Marketing Division.

He stated that there was a lack of dis cipline among that Department and he mentioned parti cularly the charge of drunkenness.
I, too, have noticed a certain amount of drunkenness in that Department, and I would strongly suggest to the hon.

Minis ter to have the canteen closed as early as possible, or to prohibit the sale of strong drinks on the premises.

in The Department had received informa tion to the effect that there was a more efficient way of catching red snapper, and I decided to do something about the matter.

I asked the American Consul in this Colony to see whether he could get an officer from the I.C.A.
to come here and give us a demonstration.

Mr. Taylor eventually came over and taught our fishermen how to catch red snapper in a more efficient manner.

\Ve were the recipients of all of the gear It Mr. Taylor brought over with him.

will be seen that Government is doing everything possible the fishermen to produce more fish.

to encourage Sir, the facilities provided by the Gov ernment at the Wholesale Fish Market at La Penitence are numerous.

The hon.

Member for Georgetown South and the hon.


Nominated Member, Mr. Fre dericks, know that Government has pro vided a Rest House, a canteen, ramps, etc for repairing fishing-boats and fishing nets for the fishermen.

Government has to subsidize all of these things in the in fancy of the fishing industry.

The Wholesale Fish Market at pre sent charges about 30% to 35% profit or excess on the price paid to producers and it still operates at a loss .

.
.

I feel that the Wholesale Fish Market should be operated on a co-operative basis and run by the men themselves.

I am sure the fishermen will be able to run it more efficiently, because any profit or loss will affect them.

Mr. Beharry: Everything possible is being done to increase the efficient pro duction of the country.

Our fish produc tion has risen considerably.

In 1957 the Government Produce Depot bought 486,000 pounds of fish.

In 1958 the Dspot bought approximately 900,000 pounds of fish.
A great amount of fish was sold in the Municipal Markets, and approximately 1,000,000 pounds of fish passed through the Government Produce Depot This Council will recall that last year I asked Mr. Taylor of the I.C.A.

to come here and teach our fishermen how to increase the catch of red snapper.

The Marketing Section of the Fisheries Division was not established as a com mercial organization to buy and sell fish for profit.
Like the Government Pro duce Depot, I visualize that one day it will be converted into a Fishery Board where fishermen can market their pro duce.

The fishing industry has not yet advanced to a point where Government can hand it over the fishermen.

Government will endeavour to encourage the fishermen to produce fish on a co operative basis, and when the time is ripe Government will hand over the Iv!arkcting Section to the fishermen so that they .can handle their own affairs.
to The country has 12 schooners fishing mostly for red snapper, some trawlers and over 500 small craft to catch fish to serve the community.

Government will continue to encourage the fishermen to make the country as self-sufficient as nossible so far as fish is concerned.

This country is still a large importer of fish, and I think it is high time that we reduce our importation of this item.
411 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 412 Mr. Burnham: If there is a sufficient supply of fish, may I ask whether the hon.

Minister considers setting up a can ning industry?

I understand that there is a lot of wastage still taking place as a result of bad distribution and, perhaps, if a canning factory were set up the fishermen would have somewhere to sell the fish immediately when it cannot be taken up by buyers in the market.

I heard Mr. Fredericks: the hon.


Minister of Natural Resources refer to the facilities at the Fisheries Division.

I was hoping not to be drawn into any elaborate discussion on this topic, but I must paint ·out that the conditions and facilities referred to are hopelessly over crowded.

that Government should provide adequate storage facili ties for boats, nets, and the amount of fish that can be caught.

think I The hon.
think I The hon.

Minister also mentioned something about Mr. Taylor coming over here to teach our local fishermen ho-w to catch red snapper.

That was done as a result of a recommendation from the Industrial Advisory Committee.

I would earnestly ask the hon.

Minister to try and imolement the other recommenda tions of' the Committee as early as pos · 1-~~ sible.
The Industrial Advisory Committee feel that, if the fishermen themselves have a say in running that part of the Marketing and Fishery Section, they , would be able t/0 p'Ut it on a more business-like basis.

One of the biggest drawbacks there is the lack of food storage.

I would ask Government to investi gate this aspect of it as early as possible, and put proper cold storage facilities at the disposal of the fishermen.

Mr. Bebarry: The hon.


Member has suggested that we should investigate the possibility of canning; we will think of canning to take care of excess supplies.

On the question of cold storage, I agree with him there is a real pressin~ need for this at the present moment.

I know of two cold storage plants in this coun- try: one which was put up by the hon.

Member himself-and I do hope he will be able to provide some extra facilities - and that of the B.G.

Fisheries, in Water Street.


Negotiations are afoot with the B.G.

Fisheries to get some of their facili ties offered to our fishermen, and we hope our fishermen would be able to make use of them.

That is all I can say at this stage, but I hope later on to be able to announce something more.

This Company wants to go out of business, and it is possible that Government will do everything that it can to secure what is available, for the benefit of the fishing industry.
The Chairman: Are you withdrawing the Motion?

Mr. Jai Narine Singh: Not yet, Sir.

Can he tell us, now that he has men tioned B.G.

Fisheries, whether they will take over the tacklings and big equip ment which are being practically given away at this moment ?

Or whether he intends to put to the services of fisher men the cold storage of B.G.

Fisheries, Ltd. ?

The Chairman: He said the matter is under consideration.

Mr. Beharry: I will appeal to hon.


Members not to discuss this question, as I do not want to prejudice negotiations.

Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I beg to with draw the Motion I moved earlier.

MILK PASTEURIZA TTON PLANT Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I beg to move the reduction of sub-head 32- "Milk Pasteurization Plant"- by $1.

We are now asked to vote $95,600 by way of subsidy and otherwise.

I do not know if milk is being thrown down the drain or if I heard that it is being fully sterilized.
in 1958 it got to a point where milk had to be thrown away-the Minister can tell I also heard me if it is to the contrary.

that it was the Government's intention I last year to establish a condensery.

looked very carefully at the Estimates and I see no provision for it.

413 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 414 [MR. ]AI NARINE SINGH] Earlier in the debate the Minister told us that he had a very large centre with heifers ready for distribution for dairy farming.
Obviously there is a going to be a tremendous surplus of milk every where, but no Government should wait until then to do something.

It should not the cassava story.

A proper be like foundation should be laid now, so that at the whims and caprices of changing condi tions farmers would not have to walk the streets bare-footed.

and have it on the cons~fonce of the Minister.

Now that there are grandiose plans, let the Minister tell us what will be done about condensed .
milk or evaporated milk, or cheese, eventually putting $4 million into the pockets of farmers.

· Mr. Beharry: We dealt with this be The hon.

Minister of Trade· and fore.

Iudustry is making every effort to get a · condensery to process our excess supplies and we are getting an excess supply of - miUc.

right now.

I know that before the year is out we will get a condensery, and we will be able to process this milk.
Mr. Burnham: I think this shows the absence of dove-tailing between the Ministries of Government.

Here it is, the Ministry of Natural Resources is increasing production, and the Minister says he knows efforts are to be made in a certain direction to process excess sup plies.

This Government must know the Cl!-pacity for using fresh milk and must calculate what excess there will be over the demand.
All we are being told here is that the Minister of Trade and Iudus try, whose mouthpiece the Minister of Natural Resources has now apparently become, is now looking into the question.

This is not the stage for looking into the question; that should have been done pari passu with increased long ago - production.

There should have been items of equipment for a condensery here already.

But here we are, indulging in airy.

nothingness - "plans are being looked into."


We expect the Government would have said, "we have done XYZ It is true and .we -will get results ABC" you .

s~ed late, but at least you must give the impression of efficiency.

The Minister of Trade and Industry (Dr. Jagan) : Hon.

Members want to know what is being done to take care of excess milk.

I may tell them that we have contacted for equipment in this field none other than the NestleS organization who are very prominent in the milk busi ness.
Through their local agents some contacts have been made; I understand they have a factory in Jamaica and they are interested in setting up a factory in Trinidad.

Before one sets up a factory of this sort, one has to have a certain amount of data.

I do not know if Members want us to go blind-folded to set up an indus try.

The hon.

Member referred to con sumers in Georgetown.

The need today is not over-production, but under-con sumption.
The fact is, the people in Georgetown continue to consume milk out of tins, and if they were to stop doing that, then there would be no problem of setting up either a condensery or for con verting milk into other by-products.

Only yesterday we had.

discussions with the dairy people who came here from New Zealand.
They were asked whether they would be prepared to set up a condensery not only to take care of excess of our milk here in British Guiana, but as a means of selling surpluses from their own country.
Mr. Kennard, the Director of Agriculture, is now trying to work out all the details which, when available, can then be examined so that if it becomes necessary for Government to set up a factory, Government will have to approach manufacturers, whether in the United Kingdom or the United States, to see if they would be able to give finan cial backing on a cash or credit basis.

I want to tell hon.
I want to tell hon.

Members that we do not want to go into things without making proper preparations, because there is the danger of losing money that way, as we have been losing on certain concerns the Rice Development Company or even the Milk Pasteurization Plant.

Before that, they were re-com bining powdered milk.
We have to ascertain whether there will be a constant like 415 Appropriation Bill 17Tl-i FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 416 .. but once a up a condensery, of milk, and if there is not a regu­ supply lar supply of milk, whether powdered milk can be used to keep the condensery going when fresh milk is in short supply.

It is all well and good to talk about setting condensery begins to lose money those same Mem­ bers will say that Government is wasting money.
I would urge Members, those in Georgetown, their supporters milk, for in that way we would have less and less loss.

of a problem to try to persuade to drink more pasteurised is set up and Government especially in British would undertake Here is an opportunity.

has part of the already equipment at the Milk Pas­ Plant.

All that is necessary to the equipment that is the request there.
I do sincerely to tell us Resources cannot get people from outside to de­ Guiana, velop industries Gov­ ernment that develop­ ment itself.

Government necessary teurisation is an addition already Minister of Natural if there is any likelihood plant for the manufacture Guiana.

It is true that milk in British and in Jamaica there is a condensery there is to be a rival plant in Trinidad.

There is some controversy about it betwen the two islands, , business.
Guiana, ness and its great potentialities, have its own condensery, make a determined tion.

I am sure the Minister erate the establishment plant.

but that is their with its vast­ must and we must effort in that direc­ will accel­ of the necessary of condensed of our having a British Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I am still has recent times.

as the producers milk is now being sold at 16 left in the air by what the Minister said.
We do not want the dairy farmers of to be frustrated At cassava have been within in one time when there was a reduction the price offered there to dairy farmers were tears in the eyes of those who spent their money and time in the production of more milk.

Before the pasteurisation the plant was established milk was sold at that details Minister's have to 8, 10, 11 and 12 cents per pint, but of be worked out.

The Department pasteurised must at all times be able to Agriculture cents per pint.
The pasteurisation plant to the Government make available has actually data acquired from year to year and over It 1s cheaper of the ordinary a long number of years.

The Depart­ to buy imported milk.

Government ment should item must realize that milk is an essential on the seasonal and for the well being of the community, the necessary the Minister the hands of the Minister problem because ment Company, and should and the Central his finger-tips.
one time a Director ment Co., even for a short time, and he should be aware of the administrative headaches have been working of milk and production data should have been in the Ann� Regina scheme Rice Mills.

He was at I do not think we should statement 10 months ago, in office 18 months with that of the Rice Develop­ put milk beyond �he means of the Rice Develop­ must not confuse of the Company.

he has been workers.


accept the milk all the have had the information at for years that the Minister Mr. Tello: I am extremely dis­ appointed of Trade and Industry should us that he is studying is wrong with the dove-tailing of radically these Ministries.

In to the his annexure Governor's of Natural at his time be telling data.

Something Speech the Minister says: to estab­ It is no use here.
They are not in developing The production of milk in British Guiana is in the hands of small people who should be protected.

asking in New Zealand people lish a condensery interested they are interested products for New Zealand.

and advancing tectinO' of th; people of British Minister expressed Guiana; still in marketing their own imports of annually.

reducing costs more efficient pansion improved tion of more nutritious tion of consumption We are interested life the economic Guiana.
The the hope that if Government of Trade and Industry the benefit of the people Resources British has often management But emphasis amounting in pro­ "The dairy industry further in an effort eventually will be expanded to replace to some $4 million will be placed on of production, by the use of breeds under the Dairy Ex­ of cattle; grasses; of local milk."
the cultiva­ and stimula­ and Artificial Insemination Schemes; 1 7 TH F EBRUARY, 1959 l3udget Debate 4 18 417 Appropriation Bill [MR. T ELLO] the Stimulation of production of local milk is the emphasis in last line.

That statement covers the whole question of production.

Government anticipated an increased production of milk and for that reason we were asked to vote sums of over $133,000 to complete a scheme to avoid frustration, but we find that somebody has broken down there.
The Minister of Natural Resources has ful fulled his obligation; his plan is com plete, at least on paper, but in the matter of finding a market we find that the dis t:ribution system has not only broken down in th~ milk industry but also in the rice industry and ground provisions, and someone who is more qualified than I am to speak in the matter of the fish industry will say that the system of distribution in that respect has been found wanting.
After a bold programme has been ar ranged for increased production we hear that I Government is now studying data.

Why, when the production scheme was being thought out, consideration was not given to the question of finding a ready I market and improved distribution?

am disappointed.

about it.


I do not know if the best thing is a condensery, but what I do know is that something is radically · wrong with the planning, and if we con tinue in that short-sighted policy and incomplete planning we cannot avoid frustration.

Mr. Burnham : I am a bit surprised and confused by the remarks of the hon.

Minister of Trade and Industry.


At one time he says that the problem is not over-production but under-consumption, and a.t another time he says that before we can have the condensery we have to get data.

If it is a question of consump tion then do not let us have a condensery for a long time, but find ways and means of selling milk and encouraging people to buy it.
On that aspect of the matter I would like to observe that while some of the people of Georgetown may agree with the Minister of Trade and Industry that a bottle of milk is better than a bottle of Bank's beer, the price of a bottle of pasteurised milk, standing as it does at 16 cents, is so high that though some people may be prepared to consume more milk they do not have the means.
Perhaps we may hope for closer co operation between the two Ministries taking place, and perhaps they can put their heads together to adumbrate some policy and· find some means whereby the cost of production can be reduced to encourage more people to drink more milk in Georgetown, and then we shall not have to worry about a condensery .
But on the other hand the Minister of Trade and Industry did not seem to en tirely disagree with the prospect or the thesis that a condensery is a good thing I do not know for British Guiana.

whether he did not disagree openly be cause the Minister of Natural Resources .

had already committed him to it, but I am going to assume that he did not dis agree because he really did not disagree.

The Minister of Trade and Industry has been the most brilliant agitator this country has ever produced.
He has criti cised previous Governments for having failed to do anything.

This Government has been running for 19 months, and from the day he took over his Ministry the Minister of Natural Resources has been telling the people, through the Press, about the great plans he has.

Certainly his colleague must have been aware of those plans.

Since 1957 the Minister of Trade and Industry should have been aware of the plans of the Minister of Natural Resources to increase the pro duction of milk.

The hon.
The hon.

Ministe.r of Natural Re sources has been at pains to tell us that the production of milk last year was greater than it was in 1957.

Is not the hon.

Minister of Trade and Industrv aware of that fact?

·Certainly from last year he could have instructed his tech nical officers to start collecting the neces sary data.

It seems to me that what has really happened is that either the Minister of Trade an,d Industry is putting his dead ening hand on the condensery, or he never thought of it before.
I ~liev:e that there is more in the mortar than the pes- l \ \ 419 Appropriation Bill 17n1 FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 420 'tl~ne Minister producing the milk and the other Minister will not find the .

condensery.

Does it take all of this time to get the data?

The P.P.P.

Government was here since· 1957, and we could have got it in 1958.

The answer is most un convincing.


If the Minister of Trade and Industry will confess his manifold sins and weaknesses and promise us that he will get down to his work with his col leagues and his mouthpiece, we shall be satisfied.

Member for Georgetown South to ·cstal> lish a condensery.

We know from the tight Budget this year that it is virtually impossible to raise money to do things which should have been done long ago.

We have $4 million for the Boerasirie internal works.
We need a lot of money to - - Mr. KendaU: Cease operation for the time being.

Dr. Jagan: I pointed out to the hon.

Member that for a long time milk was in short supply.

Dr. Jagan : We have to pay interest on the money all the time.

I would like to set up a lot of things-- Mr. Burnham: Up to now ?

Dr. Jagan : The hon.

Minister of Natural Resources and I went and begged the people to produce more milk.

We had to resurrect the service which was suspended.

The hon.
The hon.

Member is living in a dream world and he does not know what is happening.

I said before that one has to know precisely what type of factory one wants, the economic out put, how much milk will be consumed and so on before one embarks on such a project.

The hon.

Member does not seem to understand the poi.pt about under con sumption and over production .

Milk is said to be over produced because it is under consumed, but it is not really over produced in this instance.
If the people in Greater Georgetown area were buying milk from the Pasteurization Plant in stead of drinking evaporated milk, tinned milk or Banks Geer for that matter, things would have been much better.

The hon.

Member referred to the price of milk.

Milk is sold at 16 cents a pint, .

but Banks beer is sold at 25 cents a bottle.

I do not disagree with the hon .

Member's suggestion that a condensery should be set up, but the point is that everything must be properly planned beforehand.
I have already said that if private enterprise fail to do certain things Government will have to consider doing them.

I suppose we could find money by selling one of the estates of the hon.

Mr. Burnham: So said you in August, 1957.

Dr. Jagan: Let us face facts.

If we cannot get money from England or else where we will have to do the best we can to help ourselves.

We have tried to get money from the World Bank-- Mr. Burnham : Go East, young man!

Dr. Jagan: I will take you along.


Mr. Burnham : No thank you.

Dr. Jagan : I have said that if private enterprise are willing to embark on some of these industries, Government will give them the data required.

Private enter prise will not set up a factory merely because of hearsay.

They want specific data whether it is Banks beer, Plibord or something else.

These things take months of preparation, and we who arc spending Government's money have to be very careful because of the failures of the past.
Mr. Burnham : Cut out your trips !

Dr. Jagan : I can assure hon.

Members that there is no disagreement on this side of the Table so far as the setting up of a secondary processing industry is con cerned.

The Agricultural Department is burdened with many of these commer cial undertakings.
Not so long ago, be fore the previous Director of Agriculture took up his new post, there was a confer- ~ 421 Appmpriation Bill 17TH F EHRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 422 [DR. JAGAN] ence to bring all of these commercial undertakings outside of the sphere of the Agricultural Department, and put them into the hands of a commercial under they would be run on a taking so that ,businesslike manner with businessmen at the head.

We hope that that will be If they done in the very near future.
want to set up a condensery either jointly with private enterprise, or wholly as a Government venture it will be left to them.

In the meantime we are carrying out these investigations in order to assist the people.

they are interested The hon.

Member for Georgetown South said that the people in New Zea land are not interested in the devel opment of British Guiana, and that they will not set up a factory here in deve because loping industries in their own coun try.
He should know that today there is a great need to find markets out side, not only in New Zealand but in other countries.

When they cannot sell their finished products outside, they do not mind selling their raw materials to a country which would give them an opportunity of disposing of them rather than having a surplus.

Hon.

Members should not desire this Government to rush headlong into things and lose thousands of dollars, because many things that have been done before were not properly planned.
I would be the last person to see this Government losing large sums of money so far as the taxpayers are concerned.

Mr. Burnham : Maybe I did not under stand the hon.

Minister of Trade and In dustry when he laid down his thesis on under consumption and, apparently, he did not understand me.

The point I made about the question of under consumption was that the price was too high for many an ordinary person to buy milk.
If you know anything about the habits of milk consumption you will tl1at though a tin of evaporated milk costs twice as much or more than a pint of pas teurized milk, the tin of evaporated milk will last longer.

That is my personal ex perience.

My experience is connected realize with a refrigerator, and the experience would be worse for those who do not have a refrigerator.

You cannot keep a bottle of pasteurized milk for as long as you can keep a half tin of evaporated milk.
It is no sense saying that evaporated milk is more expensive and people are still buying it.

The point is that it will keep longer and the money will last longer.

You will have to consume all of the milk when you use pasteurized milk.
I thought the Government would have addressed its mind to tackling the pro blem of under consumption by finding some means of reducing the cost of pas teurized milk to the consumer either by a reduction of overhead expenditure - to give you some idea, all of these fancy accountants in the department are un necessary-and/ or a subsidy.

I cannot accept that the hon.

Minister of Trade and Industry does not under stand the point I was making.
The Min ister is wont sometimes to say things which have the habit of boomeranging, and on this occasion he has been his usual self.

He says that it takes months to carry out the necessary investigations.

The Party in power had nineteen months to carry out the necessary investigations, and from his own words he stands con victed of doing nothing with respect to the condensery.

As I said before, we are going to give the Government a further chance.
We are happy to hear that the Minister of Trade and Industry and his colleagues do not disagree on the question of the condensery, and that any disagreement is limited to statements in the Press.

Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I beg to with- draw my Motion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: The question that Head 3 carried out at the figure of $ 1,840,368.

Agriculture - - is.

be Agreed to.


423 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 424 Headp~ Council resumed.

MR. CAMPBELL'S ABSENCE Mr. Speaker: I want to announce that since this Council resumed today l have received a letter from the hon.

Member for North West District, Mr. Campbell, stating that he has not been able to at tend today's meeting because of indis position.

I am sure hon.
I am sure hon.

Members will wish him a speedy recovery so that he will be able to take his place at our sit tings on another day.

It is now five o'clock; it is time for adjournment, and I want to hear from hon.

Members what time we should resume.

ADJOURNMENT The Chief Secretary : I beg to move the adjournment of this Council until 8.15 p.m. Mr. Burnham: For how long?

Mr. Speaker : Until about ten o'clock.


Mr. Tello : Last week we had a terri- ble disagreement and certain Members walked out of the Council because they could not get any refreshment.

The fol lowing day we came back here and even worked on a Saturday morning.

Today, without any warning, you are making new arrangements to work from 8 .15 until later.

Mr. Speaker: If hon.

Members are not here they should inquire about what bas taken place in their absence.
Before we ac;Jjourned the meeting on Saturday last.

the question was raised as to whether we would sit on Monday night.

It was also mentioned that nothing definite should be decided except with the consent of the Members.

No one can be arbitrary and say to hon.

Members that they must sit for a specific period.

At the time there was some indecision, and no agreement as to what time we should go on to was reached.

That is what took place on Sat- urday.


- I remember that some mention was made about the likelihood of sitting to night, but it was realized that no one could fix any time for the Members of this Council outside of the regular time.

It is the business of the Members of this Council to decide what time they will sit.

I repeat that at the time of the adjourn ment Members could not make up their minds, and we said that we would decide on Monday as to whether we would sit on Monday night.
I cannot nor do I wish to force Members to sit at times If they wish to outside of their wishes.

sit at 7, however inconvenient it is for me as Speaker of this Council, I will be here punctually, even if Members come late.

Mr. Tello : Can we not make up our minds on definite hours at which we would sit?

The Chief Secretary : I have no idea how long the debate i:s going to take, but perhaps we can meet afterwards and work something out.
Mr. Speaker: If Members wish, I will adjourn simpliciter and if they wish to they can reach me on the sit tonight, telephone.

The Chief Secretary: I move that we adjourn now and resume at 8.15 p.m. Mr. Speaker: Do Members agree to I notice there are vacant seats, that?

and I hope I shall not be told by some Members that he was not informed.

Council adjourned accordingly.

RESUMPTION Council resumed at 8 .20 p.m. and resolved itself into Committee to resume consideration of the Schedule to the Bill.
ANALYST The Financial Secretary: I beg to move that the Schedule be amended by the insertion of the figures $54,892 under H ead 4 - Analyst.

In the Appropria tion Bill there are no figures in the Schedule, and what I am seeking to do is to amend the Schedule by inserting those figures.

425 Appropriation Bill J 7ni FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 426 SCIENTIFIC OFF ICERS Mr. Gajraj: I think the hon.

the Financial Secretary is quite correct.


May I at ~ub-head 3-"Scientific Officers", $6,888 - move a reduction by $1 in order to make a few comments?

I know that the ordinary functions of the officers and the technicians of the Analyst De partment are to some extent confined to the and drugs the Food and in Drugs Ordinance.

That is how we have milk samples and other things sent to the Analyst for testing and for the issue of certificates in terms of the Ordi nance.
analysis of accordance with foods I have moved a reduction of the item because of a development which has recently come to my notice with respect to rice and padi.

For a long time the rice farmers of th.is country have been complaining that it was necessary to have an independent authority in the industry to decide upon grades of rice and padi.
It is well known that there has always been a considerable amount of opposition to the Rice Marketing Board, as the sole buyer, grading rice itself, and the Board has very often said that it was quite anxious independent authority should be set up by Govern ment to decide upon grades.
that an It has always been the view of the Board that this particular aspect of grad ing should be done by the Department of Agriculture, and that is how our thoughts have.been running until now, but very re cently I have learned that in the neigh bouring territory of Suriname the Govern ment has for many years undertaken to be the impartial arbiter of grades in so I far as padi and rice are concerned.
have recently seen evidence of the fact that this work is done by the Analyst De partment in that country, for the Ordi nance for the protection of rice farmers lays down specifications as to quality in so far as colour, percentage of broken grains and so forth, and in the case of padi the specifications range from the percentage of husk, foreign matter, dis colouration, chalky grains and so forth .
This job is done by the Analyst Depart ment which issues the certificates, so that there can be no dispute between buyer and seller, and anyone who has either rice or padi may submit his sample, pay the prescribed fee, and obtain a certificate of standard or of grade.
It struck me when I learned of this arrangement, that perhaps it was a policy which this Government might pursue, be cause in the past there has always been the fear that if an independent grading of rice or other grains should be undertaken by our Department of Agriculture it might need a very large staff to cope with the demand, but my information is that in Dutch Guiana there was no necessity for such preparations in the Analyst De partment because of its staff of scientific and trained men who were able to deal In fact it is not meant with all cases.
that everyone who has a bag of padi or rice would go to the Analyst Department for a certificate of grade.

In most cases, when the negotiations between buyer and seller reached the stage that there was some dispute as to the grade, only then the Analyst Department came into the picture, because it functioned more or less as a Board or court of appeal in order to resolve any deadlock between the negotiating parties.
I make mention of it with the hope that the thoughts might remain with the I think Members of our Government.

it is something altogether new and they may be able to give it some consideration, and perhaps we may have at some future date, some time during the year, plans whereby this very controversial subject may reach the point of greater fulfilment.

For some time the people have been clamouring for independent grading of rice.
I believe you will find in a report of the Rice Committee, presided over by His Excellency the Governor, a recom mendation that Government should set up an independent grading facility for the industry.

Mr. Tello : I intended moving the reduction of this Head but for a different purpose.

It has something to do with the point raised by my hon.

Friend.
Friend.

I am directing a query to the hon the Chief Secretary because it concerns the ques- 427 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRU ARY, 1959 Budget Debate 428 I am informed tion of Establishment.

that one of the Scientific Officers attached to the Analyst Department does not hold the necessary qualifications for his post.

I understand that he holds what is known I as a "General Degree in Chemistry".
note from an advertisement in the Official Gazette dated 28th April, 1956, that it was necessary to have an Honour's Degree in order to fill the post, but the holder of the post merely has a General Degree in Chemistry.

Possibly the answer to my query will be that, in the light of post-war con ditions, Government had to make a com promise by appointing .

someone with qualifications below the desired standard because of the lack of travelling and training facilities.
This is a very im I hope the information I portant job.

have received is incorrect and that this officer possesses the necessary qualifica tions set out in the advertisement.

But if my information is correct and he was employed job because of uncontrollable circumstances, I should like to know whether he would be given an opportunity to qualify him self to fill the post.
to do this important If this Scientific Officer, who is a key officer in that Department, does not possess the necessary qualifications for the post, he cannot demand respect from his colleagues above and below him.

He would be incapable of training the Assist ants who have to work with him, and he would be unable to supervise them pro In the circumstances there would perly.

be a weakness in the Department, and it would be lacking in its true service to the I have brought up this matter Colony.
I here because it is all over the streets.

think this is the correct place to settle it.

The Financial Secretary : I am not quite sure how this matter affects the Appropriation Bill, or what relevance it has on the topic we are discussing.

Mr. Burnham: The Speaker will rule.

Mr, Tello : We want to vote a salary for someone who is properly quali fied to fill the post.

The Chairman : Do you wish your Motion for the reduction of the item put fo the vote ?
Mr. Gajraj : I was hoping that some Member of the Government might have said a word or two on the matter.

The Minister of Labour, Health and Housing (Mrs. Jagan): That Department falls under my portfolio, and I do not think there is anything to say.

You are the Chairman of the Rice Marketing Board, and I think the proper thing for you to do is to approach the Department as Chairman of the Rice Marketing Board.

Mr. Gajraj: The hon.

Minister seems to be speaking directly to me .

.


Mr. Ram Karran: On a point of Is the hon.

Member the Chair order.

man of the Rice Marketing Board ?

Mrs. Jagan: I want to sugge$t to the hon.

Nominated Member, Mr. Gajraj, that, as Chairman of the Rice Marketing Board, it would be proper for him to approach the Department in the usual I do not think this is the correct way.

place to approach me on this matter, and I see no need to comment on it.
At the moment I know that the Analyst Depart ment is fully occupied.

It would be necessary to expand the Department in order to undertake more work.

Mr. Gajraj: That is why I said that I was putting the matter before the Gov ernment, because only Government would know whether the officers in the Department had enough work to do.

As Chairman of the Rice Marketing Board I have no place in this Council.
As a Nominated Member of this Council, I feel this is the proper place for me to bring any matter affecting the Govern ment.

.

The Rice Marketing Board is a statu- tory body, and in due course it will take what action seems fit.

But in this Coun- 429 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 430 [MR. GAJRAJ] cil I do my duty as I feel it should be done.

Dr. Jagan: The hon.
Dr. Jagan: The hon.

Member, having failed to grasp an opportunity at this afternoon's Session, is now seeking under the Head of Agriculture to say what he should have said on the Second Reading of the Bill.

Mr. Gajraj: I object to that state ment, because the hon.

Minister cannot look into my head to know what I am thinking.

Mrs. Jagan : You must attend all of the Sessions.


Mr. Tello : I do not think that the Members of the Government should have dealt slightly with the matter I have raised, because is a principle there I know that in other Depart i~volved.

ments a compromise was made, and people withou( the required qualifications have been appointed to fill certain posts.

If that is the explanation in this particu If that lar case, let us put it on record.

is not so, let us hear the whole story.


The Chief Secretary : I am afraid that I cannot carry the qualifications of every member of the Civil Service in my head because there are about 10,000 of them.

When the hon.

Member has a point like this, it would be very much better for him to see me in my office rather than raising it in this Council.

the Government correctly.

year.

I wonder whether Government anticipates the hon.


Nominated Member's point, and is now making preparation to obtain the necessary apparatus to assist I hope I have anti the rice industry?

cipated I should like to make another observation.

I am reliably informed that the cryoscope used in that Department for testing milk to see whether it contains water is no good.
I am informed that in 1957 the instrument was sent to be repaired at a heavy cost to the taxpayers; it returned in December 1957, and all through 1958 the Department could not get this im I portant instrument to work properly.

hope that the Minister of Natural Re sources and the Minister of Labour, Health and Housing will look into the matter.

This is a matter that affects the health of the community.

Very often people are charged with putting water in milk, and this causes a lot of trouble.
We know that milk is the prime diet for children, adults and especially a sick person whose resistance may be low.

Bad milk can affect the health of people I under for the balance of their lives.

stand that a substantial sum of money had been voted to repair the cryoscope, and I hope that the Minister of Labour, Health and Housing will look into the matter as early as possible.

Mrs. Jagan: I have visited that Depart ment twice, but that was not brought I assure the hon.

to my attention.
to my attention.

Member that I will make inquiries.

Mr. Gajraj: Motion.

I beg to withdraw my Mr. Beharry: The Milk Pasteurization Plant has a laboratory for testing milk.

Question put, and agreed to.

Mr. Tello: It is not reliable.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

CHEMICALS AND APPARATUS Mr. Tello: I beg to move the re duction of sub-head 1, "Chemicals and Apparatus" $5,000-by I notice that there is an increase of $1.
$2,000 over the amount provided last item (3) - Mr. Burnham: May I inquire from the hon.

Member under whose portfolio this Department falls, whether there are more than one cryoscope in the Department?

Mrs. Jagan: I will make inquiries.

Mr. Burnham: The hon Member said that she had visited the Department twice, and I thought she would have looked around to see what is there.

431 Appropriadon Biil 17TH FEBRUARY, J 959 Budget Debate 432 Mrs. Jagan: I was not looking for cryoscopes on those occasions.
Mr. Burnham: I wonder whether the hon.

Minister knows what is a cryoscope.

The Chairman: That is not germane.

Mr. Burnham: the Department If the only cryoscope is always under in repair, then the certificates issued by the Analyst for people who have been con victed of having water in milk have been farces and the people may have been wrongly convicted.

The Chairman: When I said it was not germane I was referring to whether the Minister of Labour, Health and Housing knew what a cryoscope is.
Mr. Burnham: So many people have had to pay fines for unreliable analysis by the use of other instruments !

Mr. Tello: I beg to withdraw my Motion.

The Chairman: that Head 4 - Analyst - out at the figure of $54,892.

The question is, be carriel.

Agreed to.

Head passed.

The Financial Secretary: I beg to move the the Schedule appearing as that Appendix to the Finance Committee Report be inserted into the Bill, which contains the Heads and not the figures.
Mr. Gajraj: Does that mean that the figures put into the Report will be taken indiv-idually?

The Chairman : them individually.

If Members wish Mr. Gajraj : I do.

Mr. Burnham: Yes, very definitely.

Otherwise the result would be that the Heads would be moved twice, and for a Government with no money that would be ridiculous.
The Financial Secretary: The Schedule carries no figures now, but what it says in the Standing Orders is that there should be a Motion that the revised the Finance Committee Schedule Report should be accepted as the Sche dule to the Bill.

in Mr. Burnham: Which number, please?

The Financial Secretary: I am sorry.

No.

43.

It is just a question of conveni ence, but the end result is the same.

I merely took the other way.


Mr. Burnham: Then, Mr. Chairman, I submit that under Standing Order 43 (9) we have been amiss so far, and the Financial Secretary has been doing the wrong thing.

The Financial Secretary: For the past three years- that Mr. Burnham: While is so, communis error non facit legem !

Now that we have our rules of procedure, the proper thing would be to call the Heads one by one.
AUDIT OVERSEAS AUDIT Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I see sub-bead 3 says, "Contribution to the Establish ment of Director-General, Overseas Audit Service."

I think in Chapter 69 of our Laws there is provision for a fixed sum of $4,800.

Will the F inancial Secretary give us some information of the Overseas Audit Office, and how its work affects British Guiana?

The Financial Secretary: I think this is probably the fourth time I have explained this vote in this House.
The office of the Director-General finally audits the Colonial Accounts, and this is because of the present responsibility of the Secretary of State for the Colonies for the finances of the Colonies.

The expenses of this office are spread over the colonial administrations.

The amount of money which is paid by each in dividual territory used to be determined 433 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Eudget Debate 434 [THE FI1::1ANC~AL ~ECRETARY] . '
' by the amount of revenue of that colony but, as I explained here some weeks ago, the amount has been revised, because of various other factors such as the number of Colonial Development and Welfare Schemes, outside amounts, commercial accounts and so on.

In other words, the revenue of the colony is not in itself a true indication of the amount of work to be done on behalf of the Colony.

I do not know if there is anything else Mem bers would like to know.
Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I just want to know if the Director-General has ever challenged any items presented to him, and when he did so.

The Financial Secretary: Well, the Report of the Director-General is laid in the Council and, the hon.

Member can look at it.

Every year, by law, the Report is · laid in this Council.

In fact, I think one was laid only about two weeks ago.
Mr. Jai Narine Singh: Has the Direc tor-General any influence with, or is be consulted when we are seeking a loan from the Colonial Office?

The Financial Secretary: No, Sir.

The Chairman: The Financial Secre tary has explained sub-head 4 - - Mr. Burnham: I feel, Sir, that accord ing to Standing Order 43 (10) it does not need to be done in any particular order.

The Chairman: But it should not go backwards and forwards.
~ Mr. Burnham: This special sub-order does not envisage such strict adherence to chronological order.

If you so rule ' ~ir, I shall not insist.

The Chairman: The Question is, "That be carried out at Head 5 - Audit - $151,697".

.

Agre«!

to.

CENTRAL HOUSING AND PLANNING AUTHORITY PLANNING OFFICER Mr. Burnham: I beg to move a reduc tion by $1 of sub-head 1, item (1) I do so for "Planning Officer", $7,200.

the purpose of having a certain matter It would appear that housing clarified.
in British Guiana is a subject of triple control.

There is the Minister of Hous ing, to whose control one can raise no objection, but there are also the Central Housing and Planning Authority and the The Central Housing Department.

Housing and Planning Authority bas at its head a Chairman, while the Housing Department has at its head the Commis sioner of Housing.
Very frequently there arises this difficulty, that where the Central Housing and Planning Author ity may make a dec.ision as to policy, that decision may well be ignored by the Commissioner of Housing in his capacity as the person in charge of the I therefore particular Housing Estate.

feel that the time has come when there should be some amendment of the re spective Ordinances.
Of course I appreciate that the Hous ing Department was set up at a time when money seemed to be no object, and efficiency not particularly regarded; when the only intention was to build as many houses as possible.

But this dual control sometimes causes a great deal of difficulty, and very often is a source of embarrassment to the Central Housing and Planning Authority and, I am sure, also to the Commissioner of Housing.
It is not a matter on which I speak for the purpose of criticising Government trenchantly, but rather to bring it to the notice of the Government so that this anomal",ous positron may be remedied as early as possible.

Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I would like to inquire from Government whether a new series of houses are to be built under the Development Programme.

The Chief Secretary: The item nnder It has consideration deals with salary.
435 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 436 no relation to the building of houses.

Mr. Burnham: May I inquire from the Chief Secretary what are the duties of the Planning Officer whose salary we are expected to vote?

I should have thought that he had to do with the planning of houses.

If I am wrong a reduction can be moved under another Head.

The Financial Secretary: It can be dealt with when we are considering the Development Estimates.
Mr. Burnham: I merely wish to observe, with the leave of the Chair, that the Planning Officer is concerned In the first place he is with housing.

connected with the Central Housing and Planning Authority, and in the second place I think his planning has to do with housing.

If, however, he has to do with the planning of bridges then we can con sider this question under another Head.
The Chairman: As far as housing is concerned I rule that it should not be dealt with under this sub-head as long as there is a proper Head.

This item relates to salary.

Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I do not see any other Head under which it can be raised.

The Chairman: on that.

I have already ruled Mr. Tello: We are seeking your guid ance, Sir.

The Chairman: You have studied the Estimates and there must be somewhere where housing can be dealt with.
The Financial Secretary: I do not see how these Estimates can contain any provision for housing which, under the Development Estimates, starts in 1960.

Mr. Burnham: It is true that this Head does not have provision for the building of houses, but may I observe that this is the Department which is re sponsible for the administration of the Department which is responsible for the - ~ erection of houses, and as far as I know these officers superintend the building of houses.
The Chairman: It may well be that the item "Planning Officer" means what it says.

I do not know what he actually does, but he is not a building officer.

If your remarks are confined to planning it will be all right, and I have so ruled.

Mr. Burnham: You will recall, Sir, that when I moved a reduction of this sub-head I brought certain matters to the attention of the Government.

I have not heard what the Government's re actions are.

Mrs. Jagan: Your observations have been noted.


Mr. Burnham: It seems that one has to beg for courtesy at this time of night.

In the circumstances I ask to with draw my Amendment.

BUILDING INSPECTOR Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I beg to move a reduction by $1 of sub-head (5) -Building Inspector, $2,400-in order to inquire as to the number of houses which are now being inspected by this Department.
Mrs. Jagan: I am sorry I do not know the number of houses which the Building Inspector inspects, but I would explain to the hon.

Member that the Building Inspector inspects houses in connection with building applications made to the Central Housing and Plan ning Authority.

If the hon.

Member so wishes I could get the information and pass it on to him at another time.

Mr. Jai Narine Singh: We should get some information with respect to the general condition of the Government Housing Estates.
I refer particularly to the Costello houses.

I think we should have some information as to the gen eral condition, including painting, of the Government Housing Estates at and Campbellville, Lodge Village 437 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 438 [MR. JAI NARJNt SINGH] Ruimveld, East and West.

Inspector Mrs. Jagan: Under this Head the Building inspects building when people apply for permission to extend their buildings or to build.
As far as I am aware the Building Inspector does not examine buildings on the Government Housing Estates.

He merely deals with applications which are made to the Authority by private citizens who If wish to build or extend houses.

required I could arrange to get the in formation which could be submitted when we come to the appropriate Head in the Development Estimates.

Mr. Jai Narine Singh: In the light of what the hon.

Minister has said I beg to withdraw my Amendment.


SENIOR SURVEYOR Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I beg to move a reduction by $1 of sub-head (6) "Senior Surveyor".

From information I have received it appears that there is a considerable amount of land which Gov ernment has acquired at Ruimveld, East and West, which is still not built up.
I would like to know what are Govern ment's immediate plans with respect to making those lands available to those persons who would like to build houses, and what credit facilities Government is willing to make available to such persons.

officer has left the Department, and it is intended to provide a post of Senior Surveyor elsewhere.

The Financial Secretary: The Esti- mates imply a transfer is pending, so I can only assume that he is to be absorbed in another Department which needs a surveyor.
Mr. Jai Narine Singh: I beg to with- draw my Motion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: The question is, That Head 6-Central Housing and Planning -be carried out at the figure of $48,113.

Those in favour please say "Aye", those against "No".

I declare that the "Ayes" have it.

Agreed to.

Head passed.

CHIEF SECRETARY'S OFFICE DEPUTY CHIEF SECRETARY Mr. Jackson: I beg to move the reduc tion of sub-head 1, item (2) - "Deputy Chief Secretary" $8,640-by $1.
The Chairman: You cannot go back.

Mrs. Jagan: I think that is also a mat ter which should be dealt with under the Development Estimates.

Mr. Jackson: The hon.

Member for Georgetown South wishes to deal with the item before this.

Mr. Tello: There is a token vote here and there must be some urgent necessity for this officer.

We thought we would have been given more detailed informa tion rather than a mere reference.

We hardly know what the Building Inspector is for.


t The Financial Secretru'y: The Esti mates indicate that the post of Senior Surveyor is to be abolished.

Mr, Gajraj: We understand that the CHIEF SECRETARY Mr. Jai Narine~Singh: I beg to move the reduction of sub-head I, item ( I ) I "Chief Secretary" $11,520 -by $1.

understand that this post is now vacant.


The last holder of the post is well-known to us, and we understand that he has been appointed to another post else whei;-e. This is an important post, and 13,ritish Guiana is certainly looking for ward to the Guianization of the Public Service from the top downwards.
439 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 440 It gives me great pleasure at this juncture in our political development to see that an opportunity has arisen for a Guianese to direct our affairs.

We would like that post filled by a Guianese.

The Deputy Chief Secretary is a person for whom I have great regard and respect, but at the same that Guianization is beating in the hearts of every Guianese.
It is part of the life of the community, and we would not like this opportunity to pass by without ex pressing our sentiments as forcibly as we can in this matter.

time I know The Financial Secretary: Why should we reduce the Chief Secretary's salary by $1 if a Guianese is to be appointed?

Mr. Jai Narine Singh: .

The hon.


the Financial Secretary does not seem to take the matter very seriously, but I would like to remind him that in Trinidad the Chief Secretary is a/ West Indian and we must go in that direction.

The time will come when the highest posts in the land must be held by Guianese.

I have made my point, and I beg to withdraw my Motion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.


DEPUTY CHIEF SECRETARY Mr. Jackson: I beg to move the re duction of sub-head 1, item (2) - "Deputy Chief Secretary" $8,640-by $1 .

The experiences of Trade Unions dealing with the Government through the Central Secretariat makes us feel that there is something wrong with his Department, and it is felt that there are not enough persons on the level there who can take responsibility.
Those Trade Unions which represent Government workers find it difficult to get their problems attended to with the speed with which they ought to be handled, and it is felt that if more officers in the Secretariat were given responsibility to handle cer tain matters conditions would be im proved considerably.

It is felt that there is too large a eir- cuit through which representations must pass, and because of this method very much delay is experienced.
I would have thought the Government would have reali~ed that the treatment of representa tions by Trade Unions should be given priority and serious consideration, and that the only solution to the problem would be to appoint another Deputy Chief Secretary who could be given the responsibility of dealing with matters arising from Trade Unions representing employees These .organizatipns t(housands of represent workers, and the problems which arise are many - enough to keep an officer fully employed.
I feel that the time has come to ask Government to give this matter serious consideration.

of Government.

Mr. Burnham: May I inquire what has happened?

I saw an announcement in the Press some time ago· that a Deputy Chief Secretary had been appointed.

However, the person whom we know to be the Deputy Chief Secretary is still with us.

Can we find out whether there will be two holders of one post?

May I point out that there is only provision for one post of Deputy Chief Secretary in the Estimates.
The Chief Secretary : There is only one post and I am here.

Mr. Burnham: Do we understand that the announcement in the Press is inac think some announcement curate?

I should be made, lest people go away with the idea that we want to change our present Deputy Chief Secretary.

The Chief Secretary: I do not see the reason for raising the matter now.
Mr. Burnham: We should have had the Estimates about four months ago, but as a result of the tardiness of the Government the Estimates did not reach us until 1959.

1 The Chief Secretary: The hon.

Mem ber could have asked a question.

Mr. Burnham: Such questions are not very well answered by the Chief Secr€> truy.

441 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 442 Mr. Jackson: Will the Chief Secretary comment on the point I have raised?
The Chief Secretary : I have listened to your suggestion, and I will give it some examination.

You do not just alter your establishment off-hand.

I understand that there is a post of Controller of Government Printing and a post of Supervisor.

Is that so?

At least I know that there are two individuals I connected with Government printing.

think one is Mr. Rawlins and the other is Mr. Faria.

Mr. Jackson: Will the matter be con sidered?

The Chief Secretary: I always consider everything the hon.
Member says.

The Chief Secretary: One of the offi cers the hon.

Member is referring to is an Administrative Officer in the Chief Secretary's Office who handles ministerial matters.

Mr. Jackson: I beg to withdraw my Motion.

Mr. Burnham: I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.


CONTROLLER OF GOVERNMENT PRINTING AND STATIONERY Mr. Burnham: I beg to move the reduction of sub-head 1, item (9) - "Controller of Government Printing and Stationery" $6,540-by $1.

I cannot understand why there has been this in crease of $1 ,980 in one year.

This seems to be a very big jump, and I do not know which scale merits so great an in crement that an officer who gets $4,560 in 1958 should be paid $6,540 in 1959, an increase of $1,980.
The Chief Secretary: I think the figure for 1958 was under-estimated.

SUPERNUMERARY CONSTABLES Mr. Jackson: I beg to move the reduc tion of sub-head 1, item (12)- "Super numerary Constables" $960-by $1.

For some time I have been trying to get an undertaking from the Government that Supernumerary Constables would be per-· mitted to join an organization of their choice such as a Trade Union.

Last year I was given an assurance that the matter would be gone into and action would be taken on it.
The Chief Secretary: To a point of order, Sir !

This is not concerned with Establishment.

t Mr. Burnham: In 1958 there was a Controller of Government Printing and Stationery.

This item appeared in last year's Estimates, and Government knew at the time what it proposed to pay the Controller of Government Printing and Stationery.
I am not suggesting that the person concerned is not worthy of his hire, but it is certainly not efficiency on the part of the Government to under estimate expenditure on emoluments - I in this case the difference is $1,980.

am prepared at the moment to accept the answer of the Chief Secretary who is not to l:,e blamed.

_Of those who are gone, speak no ill. · The Chairman: Does it relate to this Head?

The right of a constable-- Mr. Jackson: so, Sir.


I would have thought The Chairman: I think, it would be I am not saying that in other realms.

he_ sho1;1ld not join a trade union or any thmg hke that, but I do not see how it touches upon this Head.

Mr. Jackson: I am referring to a post, and not to an officer as such.

The fact is that the holder of.

the post has not got a channel through which he can voice his representations, as other people have.
443 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 444 Mr. Tello: Salaries are always assG> ciated with conditions of employment.

It is no use appropriating the salary and the holder of the post has not got the freedom which is a universal right of free people.

The Chairman: I do not think you can bring it in under this Head.

Mr. Jackson: All right, I will bring it up under another Head, because I want to express myself on behalf of people who have not got the right to join some organisation.
Therefore, I beg to with draw my Motion.

TEMPORARY CLERICAL ASSISTANCE Mr. Burnham: I move the reduction "Temporary C1erical of item (14) - Assistance" - by $1.

What is the use of putting down in the Estimates the sum of $10?

It is no use telling us it is a token vote.

Certainly the Chief Secre tary must know if he will need temporary clerical assistance.

This vote of $10 will probably mean that he will come back here and ask for a supplementary vote.
The Chief Secretary: One cannot make realistic estimates on such items, and what is done now, is always done.

I think I am right in saying that in respect of other types of personnel it is necessary to come back here for a supplementary vote.

Mr. Burnham: draw the Motion.

I ask leave to with The Chairman: The question is, that "(]Jief Secretary's Office" the Head 7 - -be carried at the figure of $69,668.

Agreed to.

Head passed.


ESTABLISHMENT ADMINISTRATIVE CADETS Mr. Burnham: I notice here that there is provision for Administrative Cadets.

It is my opinion that there is not sufficient use .made of persons coming back from the University College of the West Indies, to have them appointed to these cadetships.
Just some time last year we had quite a few young Guianese, some of them scholars, some of them private students, who had qualified at the University Col lege of the West Indies and who, when they came back here, could not obtain It was any Administrative Cadetships.

advised by our last Chief Secretary that they must think of loyalty more than re muneration.

Of course, if I were in their places, I would have asked him to con sider the reduction of his salary, which was nearly $12,000 a year.
But that was the cynicism expressed by that officer, which was typical of Govern ment's policy in this respect.

After these students have spent years qualifying; they have been sufficiently patriotic to come back to British .Guiana to seek employment, which in all cases they could have got abroad.

In places like Barbados, Jamaica and Trinidad people who have gone to the University College of the West Indies and enhanced their qualifications have got employment.
It seems to me that until -1 can be told something authoritatively by the Acting Chief Secretary, I will conclude that the Government has no policy with regard to Administrative Cadets.

One hears that Government wants these candidates to have an Honours Degree.

Of course, an Honours Degree does not really mean anything more at this level than a General Degree.

That is my feeling.
That is my feeling.

So haphazard is Govern ment's policy in this respect that it tends to give grounds to a rumour which I had not believed, a rumour which I would like to see scotched; and I would like to see every possible opportunity given to Guianese returning with degrees.

The Chief Secretary: I am sorry that the hon.

Member finds it necessary to criticize the last holder of this office, par ticularly when he is not in a position to I do not know what he said.

As· reply.
As· reply.

for qualifications for the post of- Cadet.

in Finance Committee the · view was expressed that the insistence on an Hon- 445 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 446 [THE CHIEF SECRETARY] ours Degree was making it difficult to get suitable candidates.

I am now able to tell the hon.

Member that we now accept a General Degree as well.

As to the accusation about favouritism, there is no twisting and turning.
The policy is to bring in well-educated Guianese at the Cadet level of the Administrative service.

I only wish we could bring in some more, but obviously one has to match the num ber of Cadet posts with the number of higher posts in the Administrative ser vice to which they will graduate after completing their period as Cadets.
After a Cadet bas served his or her term, he or she expects, quite rightly, to go on from there to a substantive post, but we can only have a certain number of higher administrative posts every year.

The Cadetships are intended to give promising men and women inside and outside the Service and who possess the necessary qualifications an opportunity to enter the Administrative service through competitive examination, and the number of these Cadetships must be limited each year.
The fact that more people are coming back than we can offer posts is something to be regretted.

Mr. Burnham: I appreciate in part what the hon.

the Chief Secretary said, but perhaps my naivete can be excused; I cannot see why other West Indian terri tories are able to absorb into their Ser vice pro rata a higher number of gradu ates from the University College of the West Indies.
Is it perhaps they are pur suing the West lndianization of their Service more actively than we are seeking the Guianization of ours?

The hon.

the Chief Secretary said it is not possible to take in so many, and be said one has to have regard to the higher posts, but can he excuse the absence of policy on what criteria the number six is based?

The Chief Secretary: If the hon.


Mem• ber can give me facts and figures relating to the West Indian Islands, I may be able to tell him whether they have done more than we have done.

As far as Guianization is concerned, with the exception of one officer who is a specialist officer in the Administrative field, all the others are Guianese.

Mr. Burnham: There are higher posts in certain respects, and I may say that District Administration been Guianized long ago.
has The Chief Secretary : You have to start at the bottom before you can reach to the top.

Mr. Burnham: I did not quite hear, but the only trouble about it is that we Guianese have been at the bottom so long, that our rate of progress to the top is slow.

Too slow!

When one looks at the Service in the West Indies one sees the West Indian from the top to the bottom.

Why are we groping so long at the bottom?

Why are we stuck at the morass so long?

Perhaps the hon.
Perhaps the hon.

Min ister of Trade and Industry can tell us.

Dr. Jagan: As the Leader of the "Opposition", if the hon.

Member had not taken the stand be has, we would have got further.

Mr. Burnham: I attribute that remark to the lateness of the evening.

The leader of the Majority Party is in the Executive Council, and as a Guianese it is bis duty to speak on behalf of Guian ese in the Executive Council, and see that Guianese come first and that they move on much faster.
I have no quarrel with the Officials; it is not their duty and not in their interest to represent Guianese.

That is the duty of the Leader of the Majority Party.

The Chief Secretary : I do resent hearing that it is not in my interest to It is the declared represent Guianese.

policy of the Government, and we are doing it all the time.

Mr. Burnham: When I said that it is not in their interest I meant that their interest in the matter cannot be as strong as that of the Majority Party.
There is many a lapse between a declaration of policy and its implementation.

These ~ 447 Appropriation Bill 17TH FEBRUARY, l 959 Budget Debate 448 declaL"ations of policy were being made when I was in knee pants, but I have been wearing long pants for some years now, and they are still to be imple mented.

Dr. Jagan: The hon.

Member has taken opportunity to attack the Majority Party, but may I point out to him that what is done in the secret chamber of the Executive Council cannot be dis closed here.
I would like to know that the Majority Party has no voice in the the appointment of senior officials in Government, neither does it have any say in the selection of personnel for the Civil Service.

I want that to be clearly understood, so let him stop all this non sense.

Mr. Burnham : I must object.

I think the word "nonsense" in the context is that we have unparliamentary.

Now been informed of the fact I am going to assume that I have been talking non sense.
We are told that the Majority Party has no voice in the Establishment, the Majority the view of but what is Party?

It is all very well to say that you have no voice.

We know that we have no say because we have no right under the Constitution, but we want to know what is your view, and let your view be stated in the presence of your colleagues.

Dr. Jagan: We have expressed strong views on this matter from time to time.

Mr. Burnham: Strong views in what direction, and when were they expressed?
We would like to hear them expressed here.

Is the hon.

Minister of Trade and Industry afraid of embarrassment?

The Chairman : May I put your Amendment?

Mr. Burnham: I beg to withdraw it.

The Chairman : The question is, that Head 7 A- Establishment-be carried at the figure of $167,966.

Agreed to.

INFORMATION SERVICES CHlEF I NFORM ATION OFFICER • development Mr. Tello : I beg to move a reduction by $1 of sub-head 1, item ( 1) - Chief Information Officer", $7,200.
I desire to draw the Council's attention to the recent in the publications and broadcasts of the Government Informa tion Services.

I take for my pattern the information broadcast service of the B.B.C., and I listen regularly to their Home Service as well as their Overseas Service, to Government information and otherwise.
The Bulletin and the radio broadcasts by the Government Informa tion Services each evening and almost on every Government programme have deteriorated into publicity of certain Members of the Government.

I can tell this Council what I will hear tomorrow morning-that the hon.

Minister of so and so will travel to such and such a place, or the hon.

Minister said so and so.

If the B.B.C.


were to put on the air what each Minister in the United King dom was doing or contemplated doing that would be all we would hear each day and each night for 24 hours.

I want to say quite frankly that it is public opinion that the G.I.S.

has deteri orated into being used as an instrument of the Majority Party.
Actually what is happening is that the taxpayers are now called upon to meet the cost of a very important branch of the propaganda machinery of the Majority Party.

That is public opinion.

Today people do not bother to listen to the G.I.S.

broadcasts other than possibly what is under the control of the British Council.

Folk al ready know what they are going to hear about the activities of the various Min isters.
I have a great deal of respect for the Chief Information Officer and the other officers associated with the G .I.S., but it seems that they are under some sort of pressure; they do not seem to be sufficiently free.

They are the officers who operated the service some time ago, and I know they released information as facts and not what they think ought to be facts.
I think it was a natural infor mation service, a reliable service, a ser vice to educate the masses about the 17TH'FEBRUARY, 1959 Budget Debate 450 Appropriation Bill 449 [MR. TELLO] principal activities of the Government in the interest of the Colony as a whole.

We are trying to test the sincerity of the Government in this Council.

The hon.

Member for New Amsterdam sug gested that the Debates-especially these Debates on the Budget - should be broadcast.

Quite suddenly we heard the hurried "No".


Mr. Benn : Do you want this on the radio?

Mr. Burnham : It is much better than to tonight talking the voice I heard teachers.

Mr. Tello : I have listened to the De bates in Trinidad over the radio, and it does not seem to have done any harm to Trinidadians.

I cannot see how it would harm .the people in Briµsh Guiana.

Mr. Benn: This?
Mr. Benn: This?

Mr. Tello : I believe the Minister of Community Development and Education is so intoxicated with bis importance that he feels that only the things which emanate from his Party are worthy of consideration.

This would give the people an opportunity to get proper informa tion, and they would be in a position to make suggestions for the improvement of the service they are paying for.

I feel very strongly about this matter.


I know this officer is a genuine man who wants to serve his country, but the sudden change is so apparent that we must take it into consideration.

I notice that hon.

Members of the Government have been trying to shelve their respon sibility by supporting the points of view that some people express.

· I hope that when his side of the Council have ex pressed themselves fully on this matter we will receive a reply.
We are anxious to know what is responsible for this change -a change not in the interest of the Colony.

The hon.

Members who are now say ing that the G.I.S.

Bulletin is doing a very good job are the same people who have expressed inside this Council and out s i de of the opinion the Information ·Government that is a waste of taxpayers' Services I wonder what is responsible money.

for the change of opinion that it is now a good service, and is worthy of the tax payers' investment in it?
I suggest that the reason why the Majority Party has changed its view of the Government In formation Services is because what I have said is one hundred per cent.

true.

Mr. Ram Karran : That is a lie.

Mr. Tello: Some people do not know the true definition of words, and in this case-my hon.

Friend suffers from that.


What I have said is merely voicing the opinion of If you were to test public opinion by a vote on whether or not the Government Informa tion Services should be continued, you would be surprised at the results.

the general public.

Mrs. Jagan : Why didn't you say that two years ago?

The Chairman : Order, please.

If the the I do not think she hon.

Member wishes Chair she can do so.

should answer across the Table.


to address Mr. Tello: I thought you would have I protected me more than that, Sir.

think I have the floor.

themselves The Chairman : It is all very well for Members to say that, but when Members to be involved in permit answers across the Table both parties are blameworthy.
I have heard an ex pression on two or three separate occa two Ministers sions during this debate - the Table the words shouted across "That is a lie"; I wish to say that such language is undignified in this Council.

I said nothing before, but I find that it is being repeated too often.

I hope hon.

Members will not derogate from the high standard that is required of them in the Legislative Council Chamber.

Mr. Tello: May I draw your atten tion to the time?

The Chairm11~ .
The Chairm11~ .

: I am quite willing to stop if Members wish to do so.

Dr. Jagan: plete this Head.

I suggest that we com- , · 451 Adjournment 17TI-I FEBRUARY, 1959 Adjournment 452 Mr. Jackson : It was proposed that we work from 8.15 p.m. to 10.00 p.m.

The Chairman : begin at 8.15 p.m. and work hours.

I am entirely in your hands.

I suggested that we for two Mr. Gajraj: We should adjourn now.

Mr. Tello : tonight.

I am not likely to finish The Financial Seai:retary: Let us go on until 10.15 p.m.
The Chairman : If hon.

Members wish to continue you may move a motion if you so desire.

I am at your service up to midnight or later.

Mr. Beharry : I beg to move that the Council adjourn until tomorrow.

The Financial Secretary : move that the Council resume.

I beg to Question put, and agreed to.

Council resumed.

ADJOURNMENT AND PENDING BUSINESS Mr. Speaker: So far as I am con- ).

cerned, the question of subsequent sit tings is purely a matter for hon.

Mem bers.
Mem bers.

If Members wish to sit on Wednes day night, Friday night and Saturday night, I am available, but I will not be available on Thursday night.

The Chief Secretary : The hon.

Nom inated Member, Mr. Tello, raised the point on the adjournment this afternoon that we should endeavour to fix a definite hour for the week.

I think both sides of the Council agree that we should have two sittings each day with a break for tea for the rest of the week.

Mr. Speaker: I am not available on Thursday.


I wish that some intimation will be given to the Speaker whenever there is an agreement among Members as to the time Council should sit, before the Speaker enters this Chamber.

The Chief Secretary : I beg to move the adjournment of Council until 2 p.m. tomorrow.

The Speaker : Council stands ad journed until 2 p.m. tomorrow.

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