Source document: https://docs-lawep.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/1697720207054.pdf (Botswana)
EMERGENCY MEETING (FINANCIAL ACTION TASK FORCE (FATF) BILLS) FRIDAY 04 FEBRUARY 2022 MIXED VERSION HANSARD NO: 204 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon.

Phandu T. C. Skelemani PH, MP.

DEPUTY SPEAKER Hon.

P. P. P. Moatlhodi, MP.

(Tonota) Clerk of the National Assembly Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly Acting Learned Parliamentary Counsel Assistant Clerk (E) His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP.

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP.


(Boteti West) CABINET - President - Vice President - Ms B. N. Dithapo - Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe - Ms K. Kokoro - Mr R. Josiah Hon.

K. N. S. Morwaeng, MP.

(Molepolole South) - Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Administration Hon.

K. T. Mmusi, MP.

(Gabane-Mmankgodi) - Minister of Defence, Justice and Security Hon.

Dr L. Kwape, MP.

(Kanye South) - Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation Hon.

K. K. Autlwetse, MP.


(Specially Elected) - Minister of Local Government and Rural Development Hon.

K. S. Gare, MP.

(Moshupa-Manyana) - Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security Hon.

P. K. Kereng, MP.

(Specially Elected) - Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation and Tourism Hon.

Dr E. G. Dikoloti MP.

(Mmathethe-Molapowabojang) - Minister of Health and Wellness Hon.

T.M.

Segokgo, MP.

(Tlokweng) - Minister of Transport and Communications Hon.

K. Mzwinila, MP.
K. Mzwinila, MP.

(Specially Elected) - Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Hon.

T. M. Rakgare, MP.

(Mogoditshane) - Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Development Hon.

A. M. Mokgethi, MP.

(Gaborone Bonnington North) - Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Hon.

P. O. Serame, MP.

(Specially Elected) - Minister of Finance and Economic Development Hon.

F. M. M. Molao, MP.

(Shashe West) - Minister of Basic Education Hon.

Dr D. Letsholathebe, MP.


(Tati East) Hon.

L. M. Moagi, MP.

(Ramotswa) - Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology - Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Energy Security Hon.

M. Kgafela, MP.

(Mochudi West) - Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Hon.

M. R. Shamukuni, MP.

(Chobe) - Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Development Hon.

E. M. Molale, MP.

(Goodhope-Mabule) - Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development Hon.
D. M. Mthimkhulu, MP.

(Gaborone South) - Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Administration Hon.

S. N. Modukanele, MP.

(Lerala -Maunatlala) Hon.

T. Monnakgotla, MP.

(Kgalagadi North) Hon.

M. M. Pule, MP.

(Mochudi East) Hon.

M. S. Molebatsi, MP.


(Mmadinare) - Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development - Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development - Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development - Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Security Hon.

S. Lelatisitswe, MP.

(Boteti East) - Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness Hon.

N. W. T. Makwinja, MP.

(Lentsweletau-Mmopane) - Assistant Minister, Basic Education Hon.

B. Manake, MP.
B. Manake, MP.

(Specially Elected) - Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry Hon.

H. B. Billy, MP.

(Francistown East) Hon.

A. Lesaso, MP.

(Shoshong) - Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Development - Assistant Minister,Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES Names Constituency Hon.

L. Kablay, MP.

(Government Whip) Letlhakeng-Lephephe RULING PARTY (Botswana Democratic Party) Hon.

Dr U. Dow, MP.

Hon.


P. Majaga, MP.

Hon.

M. Balopi, MP.

Hon.

J. S. Brooks, MP.

Hon.

C. Greeff, MP.

Hon.

T. Letsholo, MP.

Hon.

T. F. Leuwe, MP.

Hon.

T. Mangwegape-Healy, MP.

Hon.

Dr T. Matsheka, MP.

Hon.

S. N. Moabi, MP.

Hon.

P. K. Motaosane, MP.

Hon.

O. Regoeng, MP.

Hon.

J. L. Thiite, MP.


Specially Elected Nata-Gweta Gaborone North Kgalagadi South Gaborone Bonnington South Kanye North Takatokwane Gaborone Central Lobatse Tati West Thamaga-Kumakwane Molepolole North Ghanzi North OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon.

D. Saleshando, MP.

(Leader of the Opposition) Hon.

M. G. J. Motsamai, MP.


(Opposition Whip) Maun West Ghanzi South Selebi Phikwe West Mahalapye East Sefhare-Ramokgonami Ngami Okavango Maun East Bobonong Selebi Phikwe East Palapye Nkange Mahalapye West Francistown West Hon.

D. L. Keorapetse, MP.

Hon.

Y. Boko, MP.

Hon.

Dr K. Gobotswang, MP.

Hon.

C. K. Hikuama, MP.

Hon.

K. K. Kapinga, MP Hon.

G. Kekgonegile, MP.

Hon.

T. B. Lucas, MP.

Hon.

K. Nkawana, MP.

Hon.

O. Ramogapi, MP.

Hon.

Dr N. Tshabang, MP.

Hon.

D. Tshere, MP.

Hon.


M. I. Moswaane, MP.

Hon.

T. S. Khama, MP.

Hon.

L. Lesedi, MP.

Hon.

B. Mathoothe, MP.

Hon.

M. Reatile, MP.

(Botswana Patriotic Front) Serowe West Serowe South Serowe North Jwaneng-Mabutsane Hon.

W. B. Mmolotsi, MP.
Francistown South (Alliance for Progressives) TABLE OF CONTENTS EMERGENCY MEETING (FINANCIAL ACTION TASK FORCE (FATF) BILLS) FRIDAY 04 FEBRUARY, 2022 CONTENTS PAGE (S) SPEAKER’S REMARKS..........................................................................................................................................1 BUSINESS MOTION..............................................................................................................................................25 GOVERNMENT BILL Criminal Procedure and Evidence (Controlled Investigations) Bill, 2022 (No.
1 of 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)..................................................................................................................1-18 Committee.......................................................................................................................................................19-54 Third Reading.......................................................................................................................................................55 Friday 4th February, 2022 THE ASSEMBLY met at 9:00 a.m. (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) P R A Y E R S * * * * SPEAKER’S REMARKS MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Honourable Members, can we switch on your videos so that we can take care of the quorum.
…Silence… MR SPEAKER: Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, good morning.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Dumilani Mbidzi.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Good morning Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Let us start our business today, continue with the second reading of the Criminal Procedure and Evidence Bill.

CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, the debate on this Bill is resuming.
When the House adjourned yesterday, Honourable Morwaeng had just concluded his debate.

We have a list as I understand it, although the names have not been taken down for my benefit, I hope those who were on the list remember... HONOURABLE MEMBER: It will be Honourable Reatile and Honourable Tshere on the opposite sir.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: I want to be sure that we follow what was on the screen yesterday.
There were three Members or three slots for the opposition, and one for the ruling party.

Yes, procedure.

MR TSHERE: Procedure.

Yes Mr Speaker, and good morning.

Yesterday Honourable Speaker o ne a re go ya go tsena Mopalamente wa Mahalapye West, we have since agreed that it is Mahalapye East, Honourable Boko should come in.

Thank you sir.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ee, le a abelana.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O Speaker wena, o abela wa ga lona fela?
MR TSHERE: Nnyaa, ke ya Mahalapye, re bua se Mahalapye fela, a re tsweng mo go yone.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Boko, Mahalapye East.

MR BOKO (MAHALAPYE EAST): Good morning Mr Speaker.

Ke tseye nako e gape go dumedisa le Mapalamente mo mosong wa gompieno.

Mr Speaker, re nnile le nako ya go lebelela Molao- kakanyetso o o fa pele ga rona, o o neng o tla ka Tona ka diamaramara.

O e rileng o goroga ra supa re le ba Palamente ya kganetso gore, ga re dumalane sa ntlha le lepotlapotla le o tlileng ka lone.
Ka go tlhoka lesego, kopo ya rona ya se ka ya atlega ka mabaka a gore re ne re le palo potlana.

Wa feta wa tswelela pele fa o leng teng Mr Speaker, mme re ntse re na le dingongorego.

Ka nako e re neng re o nganga mo Palamenteng, fa re nganga lone lepotlapotla le molao fela ka kakaretso, Mapalamente a phathi e e busang ba ne ba sa bone go na le botlhabetsi kana bothata gore molao o ka tla ka tshoganyetso ka tsela e o neng o tla ka yone.
Ba sa bone Molao-kakanyetso wa teng o na le bope bothata ka nako ya teng.

Mr Speaker, re ne ra supa gore ga re itumelele eng ka re ne re o badile re o tlhalogantse, e bile re itse gore the implications tsa one e ka nna eng go yeng kwa pele Mr Speaker.

Ra emelela Mr Speaker, ra bua le ba the civil society, batlhophi ba rona le botlhe mabapi le Molao- kakanyetso o, ra supa gore ke eng re sa o itumelele ka fa o neng o ntse ka teng ka nako ya teng.
Re itumelela go bona gore selelo sa rona se re neng re se lela kwa re neng re ba lelela teng, se ne sa tswa maduo, ka ba the Law Society of Botswana ba ne ba ntsha mokwalo wa go supa gore bone ba kgatlhanong le se Puso e eletsang go se dira, e bile ba ikaelela go ka ya kwa Makgotlatshekelong go ya go seka kgang e, gore molao o o se ka wa diragadiwa.

Ke tsaya nako e go rolela hutshe ba the Law Society of Botswana ka tshwetso e ba e tsereng.
1 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Ga se bone fela Mr Speaker, le lekgotla la babegadikgang le ne la supa gore molao o ga le o sale morago, kana ga le o tseye tsia, kana ga le dumalane le one.

Le bone fela jalo ba tlhalosa gore ba tlaa ikanapa, ba tlaa tsena mo dipateng tsa bone, ba tlaa kopa madi kwa ba a kopang teng, go bona gore molao o o ka se ke wa kgona go ka fetisiwa.
Re ne ra bona the Chairperson wa Botswana Editors Forum, Rre Spencer Mogapi a kopane le ba mafatshe a sele, the ambassadors ba mafatshe a sele go romela molaetsa kwa go bone gore a ko le lekeng go bua le Puso ya Botswana mabapi le molao o.

Re a ba leboga ba Botswana Editors Forum.


Ba makgotla a babereki, Botswana Federation of Public Private and Parastatal Sector Unions (BOFEPUSU) gareng ga a mangwe, re ne ra bona ba ntsha mokwalo ba tlhalosa gore molao o o regressive, o gataka the Constitution, gore ga go na consultation le gore o gataka puso ya batho ka batho Mr Speaker.

Re ba rolela hutshe.


Ke rolela gape le baruti ka le bone ba ne ba ntse ba bua ba tlhalosa gore molao o, ke wa matimone, botlatlapi e bile ke dilo fela tsa botsukunapi tsa phathi ga Domkrag.

Ke rolela hutshe botlhe ba ba re thusitseng gore molao o o se ka wa fetisediwa ka tsela e ba neng ba eletsa go ka o tlisa ka teng.
Mr Chairperson, mo nakong kana mo malatsing a a fetileng, re bone gape Moeteledipele wa Diphathi tsa Kganetso mo Palamenteng, Motlotlegi Rre Dumelang Saleshando a tsaya nako ya gagwe a kwala lekwalo la ditsebe tse pedi, ke a dumela fa ke gakologelwa sentle, a le kwalela kwa Financial Action Task Force (FATF).

A tlhalosetsa ba FATF gore, “re thuseng ka kwano, kana Puso ya Domkrag ya re ke lona le ba reetseng le re ba dire molao o ka fa ba o dirileng ka teng.
Ke le Moeteledipele wa Diphathi tsa Kganetso e bile ke le Mopalamente, ke romilwe ke batlhophi go ka sireletsa ditshwanelo tsa bone gareng ga tse dingwe, re itemogela fa molao o o gataka the right to privacy.
Re itemogela fa molao o o gataka Article 12 of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, in light of the fact that this law is arbitrary and interferes with the right to privacy.” A ba a botsa gore ke eng Puso ya ga Domkrag e batla to intercept the communications tsa the citizens kana tsa ope fela yo o tlaabong a le mo lefatsheng la Botswana?

Le ene Rre Dumelang Saleshando ke a mo leboga, ke mo rolela kuane.
Ke mo rolela hutshe gore o ne a itshupa e le moeteledipele mo dinakong tse di thata tse re tshelelang mo go tsone ka go kwala lekwalo leo go le isa gone koo gore e re kamoso fa molao o o ka feta, mme ene a tsoge a ema fa pele ga batho a re nna mme ke ne ka supa maikarabelo a a kwa godimo.

Ke ne ka kwala lekwalo, ke ne ka dira tsotlhe tse ke tshwanetseng gore ke di dire ke le Moeteledipele wa Diphathi tsa Kganetso mo Palamenteng.
Mr Chairperson, re fano gompieno re utlwalela fa go na le amendments tse di tlisitsweng, tse e rileng maabane ba Party ya ga Domkrag bangwe, ba itshupa fa bone e le batho ba ba reetsang, ba tlhaloganya, ba e reng fa go na le selelo ba se reetse, ba se diragatse.

Re a itse gore moo e ne e le maithamako, go ne go sena boammaaruri mo teng.

Ke lebaka fela la gore rona we stood our ground, we did what we were supposed to do.
We have the support from the civic society and international bodies, ke sone se o bonang ba boetse molao o morago.

Le ba ba saleng ba itsile ka one bo Rre Mmusi, ba dumela mo go one, o e rileng fa re o debate lantlha ba se ka ba supa fa go na le makgwere mo go one.

HONOURABLE Honourable Boko.

MEMBER: Clarification MR BOKO: Granted, through you Mr Chairperson.

MR HIKUAMA: On a point of clarification.

Ke a leboga Honourable Chairperson.

Ke a leboga Honourable Boko.


Ke utlwa jaaka o bua e bile o supa gore Mapalamente a ga Domkrag a ne a sa dumalane le se re neng re se bua.

A mme wena ka go bona le kutlwisiso ya gago, o dumela gore batho ba ba a tle ba bale molao fa o beilwe pele mo Palamenteng kana ba dumela fela gore fa o dule kwa Pusong, ke gore o siame?

A ba a tle ba bale, ba bone gore bosula bo fa kae, bomolemo bo fa kae fa o ba reeditse fela ba bua?
MR BOKO: Go na le lefoko le lengwe le ke a tleng ke le dirise, ke le dirisitse fa ke simolola Palamente, e le gone ke gorogang, ka itemogela gore batho ba Party yooraDomkrag ke batho ba ba ntseng jang.

Ke dirisitse lefoko la gore they are ‘sing-alongs.’ Ke gore fa Tautona a re do-re-mi-fa, le bone ba re do-re-mi-fa, ga ba lebelele gore do-re-mi-fa o o ne a tswa fa kae.
Fa pina e tlhabeletswa kwa Ofising ya ga Tautona, ba a tseeletsa botlhe ka mantswe a a magwata, fa gongwe ka a a sukiri, a fa gare, alto, gareng ga a mangwe.

Ga se batho ba go ka tlhodumela go ka sekaseka, go ka iponela gore a mme se re se beetsweng fa pele ke sone.
O fitlhela ke ba tshogela ka gore nako nngwe Tautona o tlaa ntsha molao otlhe wa gore Mapalamente otlhe a Domkrag a bolawe, ba ya go dumalana gore ba bolawe, ba tlaa lemoga kwa morago gore to follow rre yo go ne go tewa ka tsela e e ntseng jang.

O fitlhela ke ba tshogela Honourable Member.

2 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Bagarona, re gone fa gompieno fa e leng gore rona jaanong re utlwalela fa go na le amendments tse di tlaa tlisiwang pele mme re a leboga gore lentswe la rona le utlwetse.

Jaaka ke tlhalositse, ke ne ke leka go leboga ba ba re thusitseng.
Ke tlhalosetse Batswana gore ba se ka ba tsaya gore golo mo e ne e le kakanyo ya bone ba Domkrag, nnyaa, e ne e le ya lona Batswana koo; lona Batswana ba ba kwa Mookane, Mmaphashalala, Palla Road, ba kwa dikgaolong tsotlhe tse di teng mo Botswana.

E ne e se maiteko a Mapalamente a ga Domkrag.

protests and other things from different artists, o lemoga gore Tona Mmusi o dirile diphetogo dingwe, e bile o lebogela ba ba neng ba thusa ka pressure eo.
Jaanong ke bona o kare Honourable Tshere o go busetsa kwa morago because what he is saying now is inconsistent with what you have been saying.

Kana wena o lebogela gore pressure has worked and there are going to be significant changes tse o dumalanang le tsone.

Jaanong ke bona o kare Honourable Tshere o santse a le mo tereneng e e kwa Mahalapye mme wena o mo Gaborone.

Ke ne ke re can you reconcile with that?

Thank you.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation.

MR BOKO: Granted Mahalapye West.


MR TSHERE: On a point of elucidation.

Thank you very much Honourable Chairperson and thank you Honourable Boko.

Kana kgang e o e buang e o e boelela e bile, ya gore kana gatwe go na le amendments, rona re le Mapalamente gone jaana re debate molao o o sa baakanngwang.
Re ka tswa fa ra ya go tlhopha gore jaanong molao o o sa baakanngwang, o o reng batho ba reediwe on phones for 14 days, gotwe go nne le identities tse di rileng tsa maitirelo, kana ke one o re yang go tlhopha mo go one.

Ga ke itse gore a o raya gone moo gore ka gore maDomkrag ba kgona gore ba ipolaye e le bone fela, gore o tlaa tla o bona go tlhophiwa, ba tlaabo ba tlhopha ba re ee one molao o ba ntse ba itse gore ga o ise o baakanngwe.

Do you not see this as fraud Honourable Boko?

Thank you.
Thank you.

MR BOKO: Ke dumalana le wena the Member of Parliament for Mahalapye West gore re tlaabo re tsena fa re tswa gone fa re tlhopha molao ka fa o ntseng ka teng, ka fa o saleng o tlisiwa ka teng.

Batswana kwa Tshikhinyega le Mowaneng, ga ba itse ka amendments tse e leng gore gatwe di tlaa nna teng.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mo tlhokomologe yoo, tswelela.


MR BOKO: Nte ke mo neele, mme fela fa a ka bua botlhale Mr Chairperson, I am giving him on the condition that o tlaa bua botlhale.

Granted.

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Clarification.

Thank you Mr Chairperson, good morning!

Thank you Honourable Boko, tsala ya me batho.


Ke ne ke bona o kare jaaka o ntse o bua, ka ke go setse morago listening attentively, o ne o supa fa o ntse le… because of the MR BOKO: Go a supafala tota gore o ne wa tshaba sekole, o ka se ka wa itumelela gore le fetotse melao ka mabaka a pressure e e tswang kwa ntle.

I think go rurifatsa yone kgang e ke saleng ke e bua bogologolo ya gore maDomkrag ba na le leshekere la dikakanyo.
Leshekere la teng le ntse le a itshupa ka matsatsi le matsatsi gore bone fa e le sengwe, ba kampa ba act on the pressure from outside, they cannot think for themselves.

They cannot come up with laws tse di ka tsayang lefatshe la ya golo gongwe.

Ba tshwanetse go emela go ka tlhaselwa, go nna le pressure e e tswang kwa ntle.
Ke tswelela Mr Chairperson, ke lebile amendments ke le nosi, batho ba kwa Mahalapye ga ba ise ba di bone mme ke di ba lebetse, le fa ke ise ke kgone go nna le nako ya go ka di buisanya le bone.

What are the safeguard measures that have been put in place, post the intervention ya the civic society le botlhe go tswa kwa ntle, le rona re le Mapalamente?

Mr Chairperson, go tlhalosega gore kana this application e tlaabo e le an ex parte application.
‘Ex parte’ e raya gore bone e le Puso ba tlaabo ba tla go sena mongongoregi mo teng, ba ya kwa lekgotlatshekelong go ba raya ba re dira ka tsela e e ntseng jaana le jaana because re bone information e e ntseng jaana.

Lekgotlatshekelo le bo le tshwanelwa ke to act on the strength of what they are saying.

Mr Speaker, there is room to testify the evidence or to test the evidence in this application e e tlaabong e dirwa e le ex parte.

Ex parte ke tlhalositse gore go tewa eng Mr Speaker.
Go raya gore the Judge will be acting on some degree of faith that will be put on the applicant or the integrity of the applicant.

HONOURABLE Honourable Boko.

MEMBER: Clarification, MR BOKO: Ke a go neela but ke kopa o bue botlhale le wena.

3 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC (MR MTHIMKHULU): ADMINISTRATION Clarification.

Honourable Boko, as a lawyer, o dumela gore the current procedure that was envisaged under this Bill… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O a bo a simolola, heish!

MR BOKO: I hope the time has been frozen Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: The clock is frozen Honourable Boko.

LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Procedure.

Ke a leboga.
Ke a leboga.

Ba ba reng, “o a bo a simolola,” ke ba ba sa lalang fa, le ba tlhokomologe.

Mr Speaker, Boko o ntse a neela batho on condition.

Jaanong ga ke itse gore a condition e ya gore “ke a go neela, o bue botlhale,” tota a ke se se amogelesegang mo ditsamaisong tsa Palamente e gore fa o neelwa o bue botlhale?

E le gore batho ba, o na le suspicion ya gore ga ba botlhale kana jang?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O a ba kgothatsa.

MR BOKO: Mma ke tswelele Mr Speaker.


Ke a lemoga gore Motlotlegi Mothusa… HONOURABLE MEMBER: A mme o feditse motho yo o neng o mo neetse, o mo kopile gore a nne botlhale?

MR BOKO: Ee, tswelela Mthimkhulu.

MR MTHIMKHULU: Ee, as an attorney Honourable Boko, o itse ka the provisions that are in the Criminal Procedure and Evidence Act tsa search and seizure.

Ke batla go go botsa number one; are those provisions as they stand, not intrusive in the privacy ya individuals?
Secondly, those provisions a ga se tsone tse di tshwanang le tse di under this Act like the interception of communication ka fa di beilweng ka teng under the current Bill?

A ga di tshwane kana ga di tsamaelane?

Let us contrast melao e, gore a ba ne ba le kgakala thata le molao which exist, being the Criminal Procedure and Evidence Act kana e ne e bapile e tshwana fela?
Batho ba tsenwe ke tsebetsebe ka gore ba ya go reediwa mo megaleng mme the concept ya the search and seizure without the suspect knowing is still contained in the current laws of Botswana as they stand now.

MR BOKO: I do not know which provision you are referring to.

I have the Criminal Procedure and Evidence Act here with me.

MR MTHIMKHULU: Section 52.

MR BOKO: Yes, I will go to Section 52 because I have here with me the Act.
Ke ise ke ye kwa go yone, ke e bone “search by the police without warrant; if a police officer of the rank of Sergeant, blah-blah-blah.” Go na le pharologanyo honourable ka gore fa batho ba tlaabo ba reeditswe and search most of the time e diragala in your presence, o bona gore go diragala eng, go tsewa eng, e bile ga go tsewe eng.

E bile o kgona go nna le nako to conceal certain properties jaaka se se tsewang mo go wena kana wa ikgabetsa ka tsela epe.
Fa o reediwa o bua, ga go na ka fa o ka ikgabetsang ka teng ka gore o a bo o sa itse gore o reeditswe.

O a bo o bua o phuthologile, fa gongwe o bua dikgang tse di siameng tse di senang mathata le ba o tlaabong o bua le bone.

There is a huge difference between search by police without warrant in terms of Section 52 of the Criminal Procedure and Evidence Act le ya gore o bo o reeditswe o bua se o tlaabong o se bua mo mogaleng wa gago Honourable Member.
Mr Speaker, fa ke tswelela, tota kgang ya me nna e ne e le selelo seo gore fa go tla application kwa go Judge, e dirwa ke ba ba tlaabong ba e dira ene a seyo, o kare mo seemong se ga go a lekana sentle.

Judge o tlaabo a dirisa evidence or relying on the degree of faith that has to be put on the applicant le integrity ya gagwe ya gore mme motho yo o ka se ka a nna maaka kana o ka nna maaka ka tsela e e ntseng jaana.
Ke sone se o bonang go tlhokafala gore Puso e batle mongwe yo e leng gore can come and prove some interrogations in the submissions ya the applicant in this application.

I do not know how best we can do it but ke a itse gore go na le mo ba etleng ba go tlhalose ba re, a ‘friend of court’ kana ka SeLatin ba re ke an amicus curiae ka tsela e e ntseng jalo.

I think we need some form of an amicus curiae in such applications.

Ke dumela gore Tona o tlaa bona gore go ka diragala.
It might be a costly exercise because we do not know how many times these applications should come before court but to protect the respondent yo o tlaabong a seyo ka nako e go tlaabong gotwe court, re kopa go reetsa megala ya ga Rre Boko, o kare o botlhabetsi mo Pusong.

HONOURABLE Honourable Boko.

MEMBER: Clarification MR SPEAKER: Thank you very much Honourable Boko, your time is up!

MR BOKO: Thank you Mr Speaker.

20 minutes is up?


4 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MR SPEAKER: Yes, your time is up!

MR REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): Mr Speaker… MR SPEAKER: The floor is yours.

MR REATILE: Oh!

Thank you my leader.

DR TSHABANG: Procedure Mr Speaker.

Sorry Mr Speaker, procedure.

MR SPEAKER: Ba tlhasetswe ke ditlou kwa Nkange?

DR TSHABANG: No.
DR TSHABANG: No.

MR SPEAKER: What is your procedure?

DR TSHABANG: Procedure.

Go tsena one ya opposition then two ya Botswana Democratic Party (BDP), jaanong ke bona o tlhomaganya opposition fela mme go ntse go na le motho wa BDP on the line.

MR SPEAKER: That is not a point of procedure.


MR REATILE: Mr Speaker, mma ke leboge go bo o mphile sebaka le nna ke tle ke akgele mo molaong o Tona Mmusi a re o beileng pele mo Palamenteng ya gago e e boitshepho e. Ke tshwanetse ke simolole fela ka gore Motswana o tshwanetse a itse gore re letse mo tebelelong mo Ntlong e. Re letse mo tebelelong ya puso ya batho ka batho mo letsatsing le le letseng le phirima la maabane.
Re kgaogane masigo a kgaogana, mme kgangkgolo re lala gare jaana e le gore Honourable Mmusi, molao mongwe le mongwe o o tlang fa pele ga Palamente, Mopalamente o o leba ka matlho a a mabedi.

Leitlho la ntlha ke go leba gore a molao o, ke o o tlaa sireletsang batho ba ba ntlhophileng?

Leitlho la bobedi ke le a tshwanetseng a lebe molao o gore a ke o o tsuololang ditshwanelo tsa ba ba ntlhophileng?
Fa e kare a o leba, a bona e le o o sireletsang batho ba ba mo tlhophileng, e bile o sireletsa le seriti sa bone, ga o tsuolole ditshwanelo tsa bone, o o ntseng jalo o opela mogolokwane, o a feta.

Ke sone se o boneng molao o o tla Mr Speaker.

Ke simolole ke re, ga go na ope yo ke dumelang gore e kare e le moagi, e bile e le Motswana, e le Mopalamente, a dumela gore Batswana le Botswana a se ka a sirelediwa ka sengwe le sengwe se se tlhokafalang ka fa semolaong.
E bile ke sone se e leng gore Batswana ba ntse ba batla molao o. E rile ba bona o tsenelela o gataka ditshwanelo tsa bone, o bo o di tsuolola, ga nna le selelo se segolo se se utlwetseng kwa Marah.

Ke sone se gompieno jaana Tona a neng a bona a wa dintshi gore selelo sa bana ba Modimo ga se ka ke sa lelwa jaaka se se kileng sa lelwa ke bana ba kwa Marah.

Ke sone se gompieno jaana re leng fa ka sone.


Kgangkgolo fa Mr Speaker, re tshwanetse re itse gore fa o sekaseka se Tona a tlileng ka sone… Gongwe pele fa ke tlaa tswelela ka kgang ya me, ke supe gore re na le universal declaration of human rights.

Fa o ka tsaya Article 12 ya teng Mr Speaker, fa ke e nopola ka tetlelelo ya gago motlotlegi… MR SPEAKER: Please do.
MR REATILE: Article 12 Mr Speaker, e bua jaana le baagi ba lebopo ya re, “no one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family or home or correspondence, not to the attacks upon his honour and reputation.
Everyone has their right to protection of the law against such interference or attacks.” Ke sone se e leng gore fa ke bua gore o lebelela pele gore a molao o tlaa sireletsa moagi kana e bile o tlaa tsuolola ditshwanelo tsa gagwe, re tshwanetse re bone pele gore a re tsamaya re le mo tseleng ya se Universal Declaration of Human Rights e buang ka sone.
Ke sone se re tshwanetseng go bona gore a molao o re o dirang re tle re fete, e bile le rona re tle re ye go kokomala kwa United Nations (UN), re utlwe gore tse di tshwanetseng ke dife, tse di sa tshwanelang lefatshe la rona ke dife.

Ke sone se re simololang gone foo.

Mr Speaker, a re tswelela ka molao o o ntseng jaana, o re fitlhetseng e le gore Tona ga a o tlisa, o ne o bifela seriti sa Motswana ka ditsela tsotlhe tse o ka di kgonang.
E le gore o nyenyafaditse courts tsa lefatshe la Botswana, go ne go sena jaaka re le ba kganetso, re ka emang re bo re letsa megolokwane, ba bangwe ba ba itseng go boka, ba bo ba tswelela ka maboko.

Re ne re tshwanetse go kopana ka kutlobotlhoko e e feletseng, re bone gore letsatsi la puso ya batho ka batho, le phirimile mo the 12th Parliament mo lefatsheng la Botswana.
Ke sone se se dirileng gore go nne le go bokolela mo go kana, mo e salang go lala go kuiwa bosigo le le mo tebelelong gotwe ba kganetso ba ne ba bokolela.

Go boammaaruri re ne re bokolela, re bokolelela go bona banna le basadi ba tsere tshwetso ya go nyeletsa puso ya batho ka batho mo lefatsheng la Botswana.

Ke sone sebokolelo segolo se re neng re se dira.

Mr Speaker, ke utlwaletse gore Honourable Mmusi maabane o tla ka dipaakanyo, mme e bile ke tshwanetse ke supe gore ke bone gore he has noticed them.
Jaanong ga go na jaaka e kare ke eme fa mo motsotsong one o, 5 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) ke bo ke re ke support Molao-kakanyetso o o leng mo tafoleng.
Ka gore ga go itse sepe ka fa tsamaisong ya lefatshe la Botswana le tsamaiso ya Ntlo e, gore e re fa melao e e sena go feta, fa re re re lebeletse amendments tse Honourable Mmusi a re di solofeditseng, a bo a re Mr Speaker indeed, I have noticed amendments tse di ntseng jalo jaanong ke di withdraw tsotlhe, ga ke sa tlhole ke tswelela ka tsone, ga go na jaaka ke ka support molao o o ntse jaana, ke tlaa ya go o support kwa Committee Stage, e le gore Honourable Mmusi jaanong o setse a baakantse melao, o tlotla seriti sa moagi wa lefatshe la Botswana ka sengwe le sengwe.
Ke gone jaanong ke tlaabo ke tsena, ke simolola go o support.

Gompieno ke emetse fa go o kgala, e seng sepe gape.

Gore ga go na ope yo o ka... HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR TSOGWANE): Clarification.

Thank you Mr Speaker.

Tanki Rre Reatile, Mopalamente wa Jwaneng- Mabutsane.

Ke ne ke re ke go utlwa sentle, ke tlhaloganya se o se buang sentle.
Ke ne ke batla gore o re fetise fa, kana ka fa o reng tota gone molao o, amendments o dumalana le tsone, di botoka di ka thusa, mme ga o dumalane le molao jaaka o ntse, mme ga o na go o fetisa.

Kana ditsamaiso tsa Palamente ke gore amendments tseo ga di ka ke tsa tsena fa molao o o sa feta gore o ye kwa stage amendments.

Jaanong gone fa noka e o ya go e tlola jang honourable, gore re tle re kgone go tsenya amendments?
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke sone se re reng he could have withdrawn this Bill a bo a e gazette sesha.

MR REATILE: Thank you Mr Speaker.

Kgang e e motlhofo His Honour the Vice President (VP), e ne e le gore re bo re netefaditse gore Honourable Mmusi a bo a kopile fela ka gore re ne re tla ka Certificate of Urgency.
A bo a ya go kopa Mr Speaker, gore ke batla go polish Bill e gore bagarona ba se ka ba nna le lesokolela, jaanong ke submit e gore amendments tse ba bone gore ke setse ke di incorporate mo molaong, ke se ka ka re ba fetise molao o Motswana mongwe le mongwe a nang le setlhabi ka one, a bo e re kwa Committee Stage, ke bo ke ba solofetsa gore ke tlaa tla ke o amend.

Ke sone se gompieno ke palelwang ke gore ke a o dumela ka gore ga ke itse gore o bataletse go le kae morwa Mmusi, monna wa Mohurutshe.
Ga ke batle go batalalelwa Mr Speaker.

MR RAMOGAPI: Elucidation.

Thank you Mr Speaker.

Ke a leboga Rre Reatile.

O bua kgang e e botlhokwa thata e Batswana ba tshwanetseng go e itse, ba bo ba e tlhaloganye gore kana molao fa o dirwa, o re o buisanang gompieno, ke o re o amogetseng ka Certificate of Urgency, o o reng Batswana ba reediwe fa ba bua mo cell phones tsa bone, e bile they can be searched fela go sena warrant.

Ke one o o fa pele ga rona.


Jaanong o o akantsweng o, re ya go o bona fela kwa Committee Stage o e leng gore ga o yo gone fa.

Ga o ise o nne teng fa, ke dikakanyetso tsa ga Tona fela gore nnyaa, re tlaa tla re ya go baakanya.

Jaanong o e tshwere fela sentle ka botswerere, mme e bile o gatelele thata gore kana tsone dipaakanyo tse Tona a tlang ka tsone tse, o tla ka tsone ka lebaka la gore opposition e gotweng ke opposition e a busa.

Ke dikakanyo tsa opposition tsone tse.

Ke a leboga.
Ke a leboga.

MR REATILE: Thank you Honourable Ramogapi.

Kgang ke yone eo Honourable Ramogapi.


Kana Mr Chairperson, tota kgangkgolo e ne e le gore re le Batlotlegi Mapalamente ba kganetso, dikereke, unions, lawyers le bobegadikgang, selelo segolo re ne re batla remedy, gore mme fa e le gore molao o is addressing, jaanong ra re remedy e ka nna eng mo mothong e le Motswana a dumela gore ditshwanelo tsa gagwe di gatakilwe, mme ke yone kgang ya konokono, not gore Motswana a se ka a re fa a tsamaya jaana, a bo a sireletsegile.
Gompieno jaaka go tlhokana le gore go ka nna le Motswana ka gore re a bona gore bana ba lefatshe la Botswana, bokamoso le babusi ba kamoso, ba ka bonala ba nyelediwa ke diritibatsi tse di gobeyang mo mebileng, tse di tletsetletseng gongwe le gongwe, mme batho ba teng ba sa tshwarwe, le fa re utlwalela gore ba bangwe ba a ne ba tshwarwa, go bo gotwe no, drop case eo, motho yo le se ka la mo sekisa, mme gone ke dikgang tse di ngomolang pelo, ga go na jaaka re ka tla mo Palamenteng, re bo re re mapodise a sephiri a se ka a dira tiro ya bone ka manontlhotlho le ka matsetseleko a a rileng.
Mr Speaker, ke batla gore fa ke bua ka remedy, ke bue gape ke quote Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 8 ya teng, ke bo ke tswelela le kgang ya me Mr Chairperson ka gore ke a bona gore ke setse ka nine minutes.

MR SPEAKER: Yes Honourable Member, go ahead.

MR REATILE: Thank you Mr Speaker.


Ya re, “everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted by the Constitution or by law.” Jaanong ke sone fela se re neng re se kopa gore a re bone gore re tsamaya in compliance le Universal 6 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Declaration of Human Rights, re lebeletse ka fa lefatshe le tsamayang ka teng.

Re se ka ra nna contrary kwa re saenneng teng.

Ke sone se gompieno jaanong re leng fano ka sone.


Ke sone se o bonang re tlhodumela go bona gore a mme molao o, Honourable Mmusi, a o ne a sekaseka gore a ga o thulathulane le dikgang tsa molao wa boditšhabatšhaba ka gore bone ga ba re direle melao, ba a re guide gore e re fa le dira molao, mme le lebeleleng gore tse di latelang, le felela le di sireletsa mo melaong ya mafatshe a lona.
Le UN ga e re direle molao re le mo Botswana, mme fela re le neela guiding principle gore ditshwanelo tsa motho di a sirelediwa, e bile le dithoto tsa gagwe di tshwanetse go sirelediwa ke Puso, mme leka gore dilo tse go nne le balance ya teng.

Ke sone se gompieno re leng fano Mr Speaker.

Why re tshwenyega thata ka dikgang tsa remedy Mr Speaker?

Re tshwenyega ka tsone ka gore re na le experience.

Re bone maabane jaana, re na le dikgang tse tsa bo P100 billion.
Ke ile ditlhophong ka 2019, ke dumela gore P100 billion o golo gongwe, re tlaa tla re mo neelwa, re ya go tlhabolola dikgaolo tsa rona o utswilwe.

E rile fa letsatsi le ntse le tlhatloga, ga supafala gore re ne re itlhamela, re le kwa madisong, ga go na gope kwa P100 billion a kileng a utswiwa teng, le ene P100 million fela, re sa bue ka billion.
So jaanong tsone dilo tse, potso e bo e nna gore fa re dira molao o o setlhogo jaana, re setse re na le experience ya 2019, o tlaabo o re o raya Batswana o re o ba tsholetse eng fa o tsena kwa gae?

O tswa go ba direla molao o o ntseng jang?

Ke gone fa bothata bo leng teng.

Ke gopola mongwe wa babegadikgang yo o neng a kwala ka nna thata ka ditlhopho tsa 2019, a supa gore ga ke motho ke Judas, ke rekisa lefatshe la Botswana.
Maabane o ne a nthaya a re, “mokaulengwe kana golo mole re ne re laelwa gore re kwale jang, bona gore gompieno go diragala eng,” ke mo raya ka re, gakere ga ke ise ke nne lefufa le wena, ke ne ke itse gore o sedirisiwa mokaulengwe, o a dirisiwa, mme letsatsi la tsogo le tlaa tlhaba, jaanong fa le go tlhabetse, ke a leboga.

Re ne re batla dikgang tse di ntseng jaana Mr Speaker, ka gore fa re ya go bua ka assumed identity, mafatshe a Europe a tlaa felela ba tsaya stand sa gore Botswana ga e goroge kwano.
Fa re sa tla go le detailed gore assumed identity e ya go dirisiwa go ntse jang, ka mabaka a a rileng, mme e bile it can be withdrawn mo lebakeng le le kae.

Ke sone se re neng re bona gore Batswana e tlaa re fa ba re ba tsena kwa Europe, Australia le America go bo gotwe no, ba le itse gore ke ba ba fake, ga se maina a bone, Botswana e dirile molao wa gore Batswana go na le fake identity tse dintsintsi.

Yo o batlang go emelela fela o a tsamaya o ya go e reka.
MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: On a point of clarification.

Thank you Mr Speaker.

Thank you Honourable Reggie.

Gongwe o ka re fatlholola fa gore, gone kwa mafatsheng a o buang ka one ao, batsayaditlholwa ba bo Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), MI6, Federal Service Security (FSB) kwa bo Russia, bone fa go tlhokafala gore ba nne le an assumed identity, thulaganyo ya teng e bereka jang?

Ba na le molao kana ba itirelela fela?

Ke a leboga.

MR MATHOOTHE: On a point of clarification.


Ke ne ke batla gore o mphitise fa Honourable Reatile, gore fa o tsaya kgang e ya 100 billion, ya madi a a nyeletseng, yo o neng a na le tshiamelo ya go ka tlhotlhomisa sentle between the Directorate of Intelligence and Security (DIS) and the Financial Intelligence, ke mang?

MR REATILE: Thank you.

Honourable Healy, o boditse potso e e maleba mokaulengwe.

Potso e ya assumed identity e gongwe le gongwe mo bathong ba intelligence.
Jaanong rona the way Tona a e kwadileng ka teng is open-ended.

Ga go na gope fa go supang gore e ya go ntshiwa ka mabaka afe.

Gompieno when we invite gore fa a re o ya go dira gore court ya lefatshe la Botswana e bo e le gore jaanong ke yone e e yang go tlhatlhoba, he or she applies kwa court, batho ba mafatshe ao ba tlaa bona gore tsamaiso e e kwa go bone, le kwano jaanong we have introduced it.
Ba tlaa simolola ba itse gore ga re di reke assumed identities tsa teng, jaaka mafatshe a mangwe a Africa a tumile ka tsone.

Go bo re na le yone ga go molato, but the process ya gore o e bona jang ke gone e neng e le matlhabisaditlhong Honourable Healy.

Honourable Mathoothe, kgang ya 100 billion, motho yo o letsang phala la ntlha ke Financial Intelligence Agency (FIA), a re ke bona transactions tse di ntseng jaana le jaana.
Ke ene yo e leng gore jaanong o tlaabo a simolola compiling information yotlhe, a bo a ya go kopana le ba Botswana Police, ba feta ba ya go kopana le ba Directorate of Public Prosecutions (DPP), ba aga kgang ya bone go bo go iwa kwa court.

Jaanong o kgonne go bona gore mo go 100 billion, go ne go sena fa FIA e leng teng.

Fa o re o botsa ba Directorate on Corruption and Economic Crime Directorate (DCEC) ga ba itse le fa e le sepe.

O re o botsa ba police, ba tsenya tlhogo.


Ba ba neng ba itse fela e ne e le DPP le DIS.

7 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le yone Bank of Botswana e sa itse.

MR REATILE: Le Bank of Botswana e sa itse, le ba Botswana Accountancy Oversight Authority (BAOA) ba sa itse, ba ba okametseng auditors tsotlhe mo Botswana.
E le lantlha ba utlwa dikgang tse di ntseng jaana.

Golo mo e ne e le international embarrassment of the highest order Mr Speaker mo lefatsheng la Botswana e e re diragaletseng.

Ka go rialo re bo re dira eng, re bo re tsaya tshwetso ya gore re simolola re nopola Mme Welheminah Maswabi gore we declare her a terrorist, ka fa dipampiri tsa court di kwadilweng ka teng.
Resolution 1373 Mr Speaker e e neng ya tsalwa ke resolution ya di 28 tsa ga September 2011 e supa gore, lefatshe le e leng gore has picked a terrorist, le tshwanetse le felele sharing le mafatshe a mangwe and report le kwa UN gore re kwano, we have picked terrorists.

Bo Isaac Kgosi, Rre Khama, batho ba e ne e le gore re ye to submit them kwa mafatsheng a re bapileng le one, le kwa UN, ba itse gore batho ba ke terrorists, ga se ba ba ka bapadisanang le bone, le bone ba ba tsenye mo radar.
Jaanong re dirisa mafoko a a very strong loosely mo lefatsheng la Botswana, tarnishing and destroying the image ya Batswana ba bangwe ba ba solofetseng protection ya liberty e e rileng go tswa mo Pusong.

Mr Speaker, re tshwanetse gore dikgang tse re di bue.
Honourable Mmusi ema ka dinao o baakanye molao o e ka reng kamoso fa re tswa fa batsadi ba lefatshe la Botswana ba re botsa ra ba araba go tlhamaletse gore, ga go na jaaka re ka gana le sirelediwa, mme tshireletso e le sireleditsweng ka yone le ditshwanelo tsa lona le tsone di sireleditswe.

Ke sone se re tshwanetseng re gatelele dikgang tse di ntseng jaana.
Ka gore fa e ne e le gore re tlaabo re tswelela ka fa molao o neng o ntseng ka teng, tota e ne e tlaa re mo bogaufing Botswana e bo e le gore le fa o bona batho ga o itse gore a ke ba ba phakileng bo Omang, mme re utlwile gore assumed identity ya teng Tona o eletsa gore e ye go tsamaya three months.

E bo e le gore ka mabaka a a ntseng jalo go tlaabo go raya gore dilo di tsamaya sentle.
Bona gore gompieno re ya golo gongwe, mme e bile a re go ya go nna le committee e e tlaabong e le gore e ka re yo o ikuetseng ya felela e mo phimola dikeledi.

Ke tsone the remedial actions tse e leng gore we have to put in place, gore yo e leng gore ga a direlwa sentle, e bo e le gore jaanong Article 18 re e diragaditse mo melaong ya go nna jaana.

Molao o ka bofiwa ka dikgang tse tsotlhe tsa ditshwanelo tsa setho di le teng, wa tia, wa fetelela mo o tiileng.
Mo e kareng kamoso batho ba itse gore kwa Botswana ga se botshamekelo.

Le bone ba e leng gore ke batlhotlhomisi fa e ka re kamoso ba ya go polompegela le lwela lefatshe, motho a bo a re ka gore o kwa ofising ya botlhotlhomisi o tlaa go direla story, fa nnete e ya go tswa, ga bone ke nageng.
Ke tsone dikgang tse re neng re di batla ka gore, lantlha e ne e le gore Tona o tla ka molao o ka fa a o kwadileng ka teng, a supa gore batlhotlhomisi bao ke baengele fela, ga go na selabe se se ka ba kotamang, ga go na ntsi e e ka fokang fa go bone.

Gompieno ke gone a gakologelwang gore ke bana ba ba tsetsweng ke mosadi, ke batho ba nama le madi.

Ke tsone fela dikgang tse re neng re di supa mo semolaong.
Tona, molao fa o ka bo o ne o tlile go ntse jaana, go ka bo go ise go ke go nne le dikgang tse dintsintsi.

E kae nako Mr Speaker?

MR SPEAKER: E fedile.

Thank you.

(GABORONE MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY CENTRAL): Thank you Mr Speaker.

Good morning Honourable Members.

Mr Speaker, re iphitlhela re le fa mo mosong wa gompieno re mekamekane le namane e tona ya molao; molao o e leng gore jaaka go ntse go buiwa, o na le dibelebejane.
Dibelebejane tsa gore o gotlhagotlhana le ditshwanelo tsa setho kana civil liberties.

Mme kana Mr Speaker mo botshelong there are no absolutes.

The Constitution of the Republic of Botswana guarantees the right to life.

Molaomotheo wa re o na le tshwanelo ya go tshela, mme ka mabaka a a rileng tshwanelo ya go tshela e kgona go tsewa.

So the absolute fundamental right to life can be tampered with under certain circumstances.
So the right to life can be tampered with, go raya gore almost every single right that we are guaranteed can be tampered with under certain circumstances.

Jaanong molao o ke o o supang one of the circumstances tse e leng gore your Constitutional rights can be tampered with.

Tla ke simolole fela ka gore, molao o e rile o simolola, it was Recommendation 31.2 of FATF e e neng e bua ka investigatory powers of law enforcement agencies.
Lekgotla la FATF le ne le lemogile gore go na le loopholes mo molaong wa rona wa investigatory powers of law enforcement agencies.

Nngwe ya tsone e ne e le gone ka tsamaiso ya go reetsa babelaelwa.

Financial Action Task Force e ne ya supa gore melao e re neng re na le yone e e buang ka go reetsa babelaelwa is not streamlined, e dira thata gore makgotla a mafatshe a 8 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) mangwe, even indeed in our own country, melao eo e magapagapa jaanong e dira thata gore e ka dirisiwa.

E ne e batla to be streamlined.

Ke sone se se dirileng gore re felele re le fa.

O ne wa tsosa modumo, rightly so because o ne o bua ka civil liberties.

O ne wa tsosa modumo, go ne go ka se ke ga tlhoka.

O tsositse modumo kwa caucus ya BDP, opposition, civic organisations, press, trade unions, jalo le jalo; many different interested parties.
Mo Gaborone Central go ne ga tshwenya ba Ditshwanelo Centre for Human Rights.

Ba ne ba ikgolaganya le nna ke le moemedi wa bone wa Gaborone Central go mpolelela matshwenyego a bone ka molao o, le batlhophi ba bangwe mo kgaolong.

Fa ba sena go ikopanya le nna, I relayed their concerns along other members of the BDP in our caucus.
We relayed our concerns to Honourable Minister Mmusi yo e leng gore ene o ne a tlisitse molao fela e se ka kakanyo ya go batla go tsenya tsebetsebe, e le go batla go tswala a loophole.

Ke gore mo Setswaneng ke mo gotweng, “mašhi ke tla ke le phepha, selabe se tla le motsayakgamelo.” Rre Mmusi had good intentions but he is a human being jaaka rotlhe re le fa, he might have overseen some aspects of this Bill.
Ka ke motho yo o reetsang, a utlwa dikgakololo, fa opposition, rona le civic societies ba ngongorega, Rre Mmusi a bo a re golo fa go tshwanetse ga bo go na le mathata, there is need for introspection, and that is exactly what he went and did.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Jaanong kana ga se lantlha BDP e gakololwa ke ba opposition, civic society, Editors Forum le trade unions.
A lot of … (Interruptions)… 2019 elections were based on complaints and dikgakololo tse di neng di ntse di buega fa re tswa kwa ditlhophong tsa 2014.

A lot of other policies that we have jaaka go fokotsa dingwaga tsa go tlhopha to 18 e le sekai, e ne e le dikgakololo tse di neng di tswa mo go ba opposition.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation.

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Ema pele.

The BDP has been running Botswana for over 55 years.

A wise man of such an age takes counsel, o a gakololwa o a reetsa.
The BDP is a wise man, it takes counsel, ba opposition ba tlhola ba bua …(Inaudible)… o tlaa utlwa Honourable Keorapetse a bua fa ka the contributions they have had in the policies of this country including Constitutional amendments tse di tlileng ka dikakanyo tsa opposition.

When the BDP sees it worthy, it accepted those.


Ke batla go le akgola members of opposition, civil society, ba dikereke, Botswana Press Council, Media Institute of Southern Africa (MISA) le botlhe fela ba ditsala tsa Botswana from across the world ba ba neng ba tshwenngwa ke molao o ba leba gore o tlhoka safeguards.

The BDP Government as its tradition, has listened and responded accordingly.

So, a re se ka ra e tsaya o kare ke santlha BDP e tsaya kgakololo, BDP ke phathi e e tsayang kgakololo.
The reason why the BDP has been in power for this long, it is because it is responsive to the needs and the concerns of the citizenry.

That is why they have continuously elected it 12 times because ba a bona gore batho ba ba na le responsibility, ba a reetsa fa ba gakololwa.

Jaanong an organisation like that obviously would be entrusted with power and I know for certain, 2024 BDP will be back entrusted with power because people would see it is a responsible organisation.
Mr Speaker, there were couple of requests, I can take one or two now.

MR HIKUAMA: Elucidation.

Ke a leboga Honourable Healy.

Mma ke atolose kgang e o e adileng sentle ya gore re ne re gakolola sentle le bo le amogela.

Ke dumela gore ke yone thuto e re tshwanetseng gore re e tsenye le mo go Vice President (VP) le Honourable Kabo Morwaeng gore fa re gakolola re a bo re sa tsose modumo.

Re a bo re tlisa dikakanyo tse di ka isang lefatshe le kwa pele.
Ke itumelela go bona ga gago mo go farologanang le VP le Rre Kabo Morwaeng yo o reng gore re gakolole ke gore re tle ka dipalo.

Fa re sena dipalo go gakolola mo go rona ga ba ka ke ba go reetsa.

Ke itumelela selo seo mokaulengwe, ke a leboga.

MR MOTSAMAI: Clarification.

Tanki Mr Speaker.


Ke ne ke re Honourable Healy le fa ke sa go bone o bua o iphitlhile, mma ke go fetise fa gore a o dumalana le mafoko a me a maabane a ke neng ke feta ka one, VP a bo a a tshela dithole, Honourable Morwaeng le ene a a tshela dithole?

Ke bua kgang ya gore tota kgang e ya go tlisa phetogo e ya molao ke ka lebaka la pressure le ditlhong gore batho ba tlaa re leba jang fa re ka gagamatsa fela ra se ka ra reetsa batho.
Ke raya gore mafoko a, ke ne ke batla gore o supe o papamale gore a o dumalana le one rraetsho?

Ke a leboga.

FOR AND PRESIDENTIAL MINISTER PUBLIC AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE ADMINISTRATION MORWAENG): Clarification.

Ke a leboga Mr Speaker.


Ke ne ke re Rre Healy, a se rra ga se supe gore molao fa o tlisiwa mo Palamenteng, o tlisediwa gone gore o buisanngwe ke Mapalamente mo boemong jwa setšhaba ba lebile (MR 9 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) mabaka, go tsweng foo re bo re tswa ka product e e leng ya rona rotlhe?

A ga se yone process ya democracy e re buang ka yone?
A gore re bo re reeditse batho fa ba bua, a ga se sone se se siameng, a ga se sone sekai sa democracy ya gore re Puso e e reetsang?

MR TSOGWANE: Clarification.

Tanki, nnyaa ke ne ke batla go tlhatswa fela gore go ne go ka se ke ga gakgamatsa e bile ga rona, o dumalane le nna Healy gore e re ba opposition ba bua ba bo ba ka supa leina la me le la ga Morwaeng.

Kana go a itsiwe fela gore ba opposition jaaka ba tlhola ba bua, go lebilwe rona.
Boramogoma ba re kana fa re ka bo ra fenya ba, re tlaabo re fentse.

Jaanong ke sone se o bonang ka dinako tsotlhe go ganeletswe mo go lebeng leina la me, la ga Morwaeng kana Tautona wa lefatshe le.

O supe jalo Healy gore a mme mo caucus ya rona e e leng gore fa Tautona a seyo ke a bo ke e chair, a go na le kamano jaaka o supile, ke batla gore o gatelele ntlha e because this… MR SPEAKER: VP, there is a point of order by Honourable Boko.

MR BOKO: Point of order.

Tanki Mr Speaker.


Mr Speaker, kana Setswana sa re, “susu ilela suswana gore suswana le ene a tle a go ilele.” Mr Speaker, the longest serving Member mo Palamenteng, Motlotlegi Mothusa Tautona gape e le Leader of the House, we are Honourable Members, ga re ka ke ra letlelela go bitswa boramogoma.

Setšhaba se tlaa re tsaya re le batho ba ba ntseng jang?

Ke kopa gore botoka a boele mafoko ao morago.

Ke itse gore ke motho yo o reetsang.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O ramogoma Boko.


MR TSOGWANE: Nte ke a boele kwa morago.

Kana rre yo fa a ka utlwa gotwe ke bonwe kwa Dovedale, ke gore ga a robale.

Jaanong ke tlaa boela mafoko ao kwa morago Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Thank you VP.

MR TSOGWANE: Mr Speaker, nte ke tswelele.

Mr Speaker, nte ke supe jaana gore o gatelele ntlha ya gore kgang e ga se kgang fela e e leng gore e dule fela ka bone, le rona re e buile jaaka o simolotse gore o bue kwa caucus.
Gape ke rona re ntseng re ba tlhalosetsa gore molao o o ntse o teng.

Bone fa ba tla, ba batla go raya setšhaba gore ke molao o mosha.

Rona re ntse re ba raya re re melao e kana re a e tsaya, re e fetola jaana ka dikgakolo tsa lekgotla lone le, mme ke melao e e ntseng e le teng.

Fela re tlaa dira gone gore go nne le tshireletsego ka fa go ntseng ka teng.

Ngongorego ya bone e tona, Rre Healy, o tlaa akanya gore ba ne ba re kana motho yoo fa a go foseditse, jaanong go ya gotweng ka ene.
Jaaka go ne go ntse, Rre Mmusi o ne a tlhalosa gore Goromente ke ene a sekang.

Re ne ra tla ra dira le diphetogo mo molaong o gore motho yo o ka lebisiwa molato wa kgolegelo e telele.

Ke dilo tse di neng di fetolwa ke rona ba BDP e seng ba opposition.

Jaanong a ko le tlogele go ipaya botoka.

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you VP, Your Honour.

Mr Speaker, e tsamaya fa kae nako?

MR SPEAKER: Six minutes.

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you sir.


Nnyaa, jaaka bagolwane bame ba setse ba buile, kana nako e nngwe dikgang tsa gore gongwe go tsosiwa modumo kana go tlhatlharuane, comes from the way matters are presented.

Jaanong fa re leka go baya dikgang, mme re baya ka go tsosa modumo, ka go tsenana ganong, ka go reng, go tlaa felela e le modumo.

Therefore, VP would be well within his rights to say go ne go tsositswe modumo.

Le nna ke ne ke le teng, go ne go tsogile modumo.


Le Batswana ba ne ba ngongorega kwa ntle kwa gore go tsogile modumo.

Therefore, it is a fact, go ne go tsositswe modumo, that we cannot run away from.

VP, further to that I will agree with you that by targeting the Presidency, Motswana a re noga e bolawa kwa tlhogong.
Jaanong if you want to demean the BDP… (Inaudible)… Therefore, indeed I am not surprised that you are a target of ridicule, a target of humiliation ka gore ba a itse gore when they humiliate you, they humiliate me, when they humiliate His Excellency the President, they humiliate me, when they humiliate the Minister in the Presidency, they humiliate me.

Therefore, you are definitely right sir gore that is why you become targets of these things.

Gape bakaulengwe ba rona nako e nngwe o ka ba ela tlhoka.
Jaaka o ntse o bona fela ke ntse ke botsa Honourable Boko potso, e ne a bo a bona go le botoka gore a mpolelele gore ke tshabile sekole, ke a reng, ke a reng.

Sometimes our orientation, our background, our political orientation, it… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Go rata dilo.

O bue gore ke go rata dilo mo gongwe.


MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: If you come from an organisation that split in violence, in undemocratic principles, e e leng gore gongwe jaaka re bua jaana e 10 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) na le 10 years e tlhamilwe, mme go ise go bo go nne le congress.

The only way that you can know to articulate yourself is in a vulgar manner.
I am not surprised VP.

Therefore, nako e nngwe ga re re ba itshwarele because it is their political orientation.

Ke ka fa ba godisitsweng ka teng ka sepolotiki.

I come from a party that priorities peace and working together.

…(Interruptions)....

It was simply a difference of opinion.

There was no violence.

There was no need to call the police.

There was no destruction of property.


However, I cannot say the same of how the Botswana National Front (BNF) congress in Palapye in 1998 for instance, or…(Interruptions)… Therefore, we are different.

Rona le bone ga re tshwane, we are a true reflection of a Motswana gore ntwakgolo ke ya moloma.

Bone kana a utlwetse mafoko a ba a dirisang which are foreign to us; a bo comrades.

Ke dilo tsa mafatshe fela a dintwa a a koo.

Therefore, I do not blame.

They are just a product of their upbringing.


Re tlaa nna re ntse re ba pepetletsa, re ba leka go ba aga gore ba itse gore Batswana ba dumela gore ntwakgolo ke ya molomo.

VP kana melao e is spoken in the RICO laws tse di neng di tswa kwa lefatsheng la United State tse di saleng di evolve ka 1970.

RICO o emetse Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organisations Law.

E ne e dirwa ka gore go ne go lemogiwa gore organized crime cannot be tackled one-one.
Fa o sekisa motho o mo fitlhela ka beke ya madi, o mo sekisetsa beke ya madi a le nosi, ga o kgone go tshwara yo o mo neetseng bag eo, kana yo a neng a mo transport.

Jaanong melao e e ne ya direlwa gore organized crimes di kgone go reediwa, di kgone go salwa morago, di kgone to be disturbed.
Ke yone the basis ya melao yone e re mo go yone e. Jaanong fa o akanya gongwe batho ba tshwana le bo Zunaid Moti ba ba kileng ba tshwarwa ba utswetse bahumi ba bo Russia diteemane jaana, o tlaa lemoga gore these are organized criminals.

Ke batho ba organized crime.

When you have somebody like that funding a political party, obviously product of that political party will be opposed with laws that are going to tamper with organized crime.

MR BOKO: On a point of order Mr Speaker.

Thank you Mr Speaker.


Mo nakong e e fetileng Honourable Mpho Balopi o ne a bua ka dikgang tsone tse e leng gore re tlaabo re bua ka motho a se gone fa, a ka se ke a kgona go ikarabela.

Honourable Healy fa a bua gore Zunaid Moti o ne a tshwarwa a dirile eng, a utswile eng, ga a yo fa go ikarabela.

Kamoso ke tsoga ke re malomaagwe Healy le ene o ne a utswa dikgomo kana o ne a utswa madi a National Petroleum Fund (NPF).
Ke raya gore malomaagwe Healy ga a yo mo Palamenteng, ga a ka ke a kgona go itshireletsa.

Ke raya gore he is out of order.

We cannot proceed in this manner whereby re gasagasa maina a batho ba e leng gore ga ba kgone go ikarabela mo Palamenteng Mr Speaker.

Unless o tla ka bosupi ke re nnyaa, bosupi jwa teng ke jo bo tshotse dikgomo tseo rra semangmang.

I think Mr Speaker, Healy is being out order.

He has been doing this quite in that manner.

Ke ne ke re o mo kgalemele Mr Speaker.


This is not right and can never be right.

MR SPEAKER: You are fair Honourable Boko, that is correct.

He should not do that.

We should respect other people.

O a utlwa Honourable Healy.?

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Ke a utlwa Mr Speaker.

Gakere go ne gotwe ke kampa ka tla ka bosupi.

Therefore, Mr Speaker… MR SPEAKER: Nnyaa, tlogela maina a batho ba bangwe, fetsa your debate.

You are just left with one minute.


MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Jaaka ke ne ke bua Mr Speaker, obviously magodu a rhinos kwa Okavango Delta ga ba ka ke ba rata molao o, gore o ya go dira gore ba reediwe, batho ba kgone go bodiwa gore ke eng fa e sale April 2018 a bo bogodu jwa ditshukudu bo ile kwa godimo ka mokgwa o bo ileng kwa godimo ka one.

Ka gore ba Botswana Defence Force (BDF) le ba DIS ba ya go kgona go reetsa magodu ao.
this thing Mr Speaker, is…(Inaudible)… Armed robberies tse di ntseng di dirwa tse di lekang to destabilise this country, go ya go nna thata.

Batho ba ba ntseng ba dira gore batho ba tseye gore Botswana is unstable ba a kgona go reediwa… go bo go kgonwa go ba pitlaganya.

Obviously, beneficiaries of those robberies will not like molao wa go nna jaana.

Therefore, it goes without saying that there will be strong opposition from certain interest groups.
Some of them kwa bo Stellenbosch kwa, ba ba iphitlhileng kwa bo Stellenbosch ba tlaa roma barongwana ba bone go tla go protest gore melao e ga e a siama ka gore ba a itse gore botsukunopi jo Boko a nnang a bua ka jone, bo ya to be exposed.

Ga go gakgamatse gore go tlaa nna le bangwe ba e leng gore ga ba ka ke ba rata molao o, mme ba sa o rate mabapi le gore they are going to be exposed.
We are not surprised go bona these things, there will also be opposition, ...(Inaudible)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Murmurs)… 11 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: …ba batlang the fertile lands of this country, in exchange for sponsoring election.
We are not surprised that there would be the opposition, obviously anything ...(Inaudible)… for the public ...(Inaudible)... so ga re gakgamale gore... MR SPEAKER: Thank you very much Honourable Healy.

Honourable Mmolotsi.

MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: So ga re gakgamale gore... MR SPEAKER: Your time is up Honourable Healy, Honourable Mmolotsi.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR MMOLOTSI Thank you very much Mr Speaker.

Le nna tlaa ke... (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker.
MR SPEAKER: What is wrong with our procedure Honourable Minister?

MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR MOLAO): Procedure.

Ke a leboga Mr Speaker.

Ke ne ke raya gore gongwe o tlhole Mr Speaker, gore maabane e rile fa re tšhaisa, the Speaker yo o neng a ntse foo, o ne a balolola gore go setse batho ba le kae in terms of... MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, I know what I am doing, you are just going to waste more time, I know exactly what happened yesterday.

Honourable Mmolotsi.

MR MMOLOTSI: Tanki Mr Speaker.


Ke ne ke re gongwe... HONOURABLE MEMBER: O batla go nna Speaker wena?

MR SPEAKER: Nnyaa, o ne a gakolola, but I am saying I know what happened, he should not worry.

Honourable Mmolotsi.

MR MMOLOTSI: Mr Speaker, ke simolole ka go supa gore e ne ya re mo Palamenteng e e fetileng, melao e e neng e lebega o kare ke melao e e tlaa nnang kgatlhanong le Batswana, e ne ya dirwa masigo.
Re ne re tswa mo Palamenteng go le phakela, re dira melao e kwa bofelong e ileng ya itshupa fa e le melao e e neng ya re direla mathata ka bontsi.

Jaanong maabane o ne o lemoga Mr Speaker gore, re ne re ra tswa fa ka 12 o’clock re dira molao o o ntseng o tshwentse Batswana, civil society le mongwe le mongwe.
Jaanong ke batla gore golo mo Mr Speaker, re go ele tlhoko re le Palamente ya Botswana gore re se ka ra iphitlhela re le labelled, re le batho ba e leng gore fa re batla go dira melao e e sokelang Batswana dirope, re dira gore ba robale ke gone e bo jaanong re lala masigo re khuthutha re dira melao e e ntseng jalo.

Re bone ka 11th Parliament, melao ya teng gompieno ke yone e gompieno e tsweletseng ka go tlisa kgotlhang mo Lefatsheng la Botswana.

Mr Speaker, selo se se a re tshwenya.


Se ke batlang go simolola ka sone Mr Speaker ke gore, Honourable Mmusi o re beile molao pele, o o belaetsang, o gataka ditshwanelo tsa batho ka maoto.

Kana nna ke bua ka molao jaaka o ntse gompieno, re a itse gore Honourable Mmusi a re o tlaa tlisa dipaakanyo, mme kana ke dipaakanyo di setse di dumetswe.
O ke o lebileng gompieno, ke one o o santseng o na le kgatelelo e e kalokalo, mo ke batlang gore ke tshwenngwe ke kakanyo ya gore Honourable Mmusi le Puso ya Domkrag, ba bo ba ne ba akanya gore go ka nna kaone gore ba tlise molao o o ntseng jaana.
Ke gore kakanyo ya teng fela ka bo yone, e tshwanetse go tshosa mongwe le mongwe, gore why would they think gore ba ka tla ka molao o o ntseng jaana, o o gatakang ditshwanelo tsa setho ka tsela e molao o o ba o tsisitseng mo Palamenteng o gataka ditshwanelo tsa setho ka teng.
Rre Mogae o kile a bua ka nako e a neng a le Tautona a re, re tshwanelwa ke gore fa re le Palamente ya Lefatshe la Botswana, re bone ka dinako tsotlhe gore ga re dire melao re tenegile because fa re tenegile, re ya go dira melao e e tenegileng.

O ne a tswelela ka go tlhalosa gore fa re itumetse, le gone re tshwanelwa ke gore re se ka dira melao, ka gore fa re dira melao re itumetse thata, re ya go dira melao e e itumetseng thata.
Mo nakong ya gompieno go a itshupa gore BDP tota e tenegile, go na le sengwe se se e tshwentseng, ke sone se se dirang gore mo nakong ya gompieno e bo e akantse gore ba ka dira jang gore ba reetse Batswana fa ba bua.

Phathi ya BDP e tenegile, ke sone se o bonang ba ipotsa gore jaanong ba ka dira jang gore le court di se ka tsa tlhola di dirisiwa go kopa ditetla tsa gore ba dire dilo dingwe mo Batswaneng.
Selo se Mr Speaker, ke bona se ntshwenya ka gore se supa Puso e o kareng e na le mowa o montsi wa ntwa, e na le tenego e ntsi, o kare ga se Puso e maikaelelo a yone e leng go emela Batswana, ke Puso e maikaelelo a yone e leng go swelela le go felela tota e tsentse Batswana mo mathateng.

Ke raya gore ke yone fela e e ka dirang 12 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) molao o o ntseng jaana, go bo gotwe ga gona appeal structure.

Ke gore fa o rubeletswe, molao o o supa gore ga go na kwa o ka ikuelang teng.

Dilo tse di ntseng jaana Mr Speaker, kakanyo ya gore go ka nna le molao o o ntseng jaana, e tshwanelwa ke gore ka bo yone e re tshwenye re le lefatshe la Botswana gore, kante batho ba ba re busang, bosetlhogo jo bo kana ba bo akantshiwa ke eng.
Maikaelelo a bone ke gore ba ye go dira eng, ke mang yo ba mo akantseng, yo ba batlang go mo gobelela gore fa ba sena go nna ba mo gobelela, go bo go sena kwa ba ka ikuelang teng.

Melao ga e a tshwanela gore e dirwe ka tsela e e ntseng jalo Mr Speaker.

MR SALESHANDO: Elucidation.

Ke a go leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente.

Honourable Mmolotsi, gone mme tota ke lefe lefatshe le le nang le melao e e fetisiwang ke Palamente, e re reng re baya stamp sa rona gore go ye go nna le false document?
Go bo gotwe jaanong re laletsa courts gore le tsone di beye a stamp gore a go nne le false documents, ke lefe lefatshe le le tsamaisang jalo?

Go ya go raya eng rona kamoso fa re tsena kwa mafatsheng a sele, go tlaa itsewe jang gore a ke false document kana ke true document, fa e le gore Palamente le makgotla gotlhe go a dumalanwa gore Puso e letlelela gore go nne le false documents?
Jaanong ke tsene mo kgannyeng ya assumed names and identities gore, kakanyo ya ga Honourable Mmusi le phathi e e busang, fa ba tla ka molao o o reng batho ba dirisa maina le bo Omang ba e seng ba boammaaruri, le kakanyo eo fela, e ne e tshwenya e bile e le gore batho ba gatwe ba ka kgona gore ba dirise maina a le identities tse go sena safeguards.

Ke gore motho o neelwa karata ya Omang, ya maina a e seng a gagwe, o ya go dira ka fa a dirang ka teng.
Tota fela kakanyo e kwa tshimologong jaaka e supafala mo molaong o, e re ntswa Rre Mmusi ba ya go e baakanya, kakanyo fela eo e a tshwenya.

Ke sone se ba ba reng ke kgang fela ya gore bo Rre Mmusi ba lebile ditlhopho tsa 2024, gore ba ba ka neelwang dikarata tse ba ye go ikwadisa ka dikarata tse di farologanyeng, gore phathi e e busang e kgone go fenya ditlhopho, go nna bokete, Motswana a se ka a e dumela.
Ka lebaka la gore jaanong go raya gore o ka ipotsa gore kakanyo eo fela, e ne e tswa kwa kae, e bile e tla e sena tsamaiso ya lekgotla.

Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo Mr Speaker, tota golo mo go ne go re tshwentse thata.
Ke batla gore ke re ke a itumela, gore e bo mo nakong ya gompieno kgang ya gore go tlaa nna le gore jaanong dilo tse di ye go kopiwa kwa lekgotleng, it is a positive thought e re tshwanelwang ke gore re e amogele, mme fela re tshwenngwe ke kakanyo ya gore e bo e re fa batho ba re busa ba ka re akanyetsa bosetlhogo jo bo kanakana, jo ba batlang gore ba bo dirise.
Ke lebogela gape gore e bo Honourable Mmusi e ne ya re fa dingongorego tse di tla, a kgona gore a di lebalebe, e bile ke a rapela gore e re fa re tsena kwa Committee Stage, re se ka ra tsena mo seemong se Honourable Mmusi le ba gabone ba tlaabo gongwe ba gana amendments tse, kana Honourable Mmusi a bo a di tlogela re sa tswelele ka tsone.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Saleshando.


MR MMOLOTSI: Ee rra, ke letse maabane ke kile ka re ke a leka go senka, ka go tlhoka lesego gongwe ka gore dikgang tsa security, ke paletswe ke go bona lefatshe lepe le le dirang golo mo ka tsela e e ntseng jalo.

Motho yo mongwe maloba e ne o kare o a tshameka a re kana dilo tse tsa false documents, go kgona go dirisiwa dilo tse di gakgamatsang.
Ene o ne a re o a tshameka a re akanya fela motho a ya go kopana le motho wa mme, a bo a felela a mo dirisitse ngwana a mo itse ka leina leo le e seng lone.

A re motho yoo kana o ka nna a re nnyaa, nna ke semangmang, fa e le gore wa re ke semangmang, go raya gore yo o go sentseng ke o sele mme nna ke o sele.

Ke gore re rurifatsa go tlhoka bonnete mo lefatsheng leno mme legale ka gore Honourable Mmusi a re ke dilo tse e leng gore he is in control, ga go na mathata.
Ke batla gore ke tshwenyege gape gore batho ba tshwana le bo Honourable Molale, a bone gore molao o ga o a siama.

E bile o a bona gore molao o ga o a wela mme o tswelela a bua gore o dirwa jalo, go tlaa nna le incremental improvement mo molaong o. Kante ke eng re sa dire molao o o siameng, gona le gore e re fa re lemoga gore ga o a siama, re bo re re re tlaa nna re ntse re o baakanya nako e ntse e tsweletse.
Kana go tshwana le maloba fa re dira molao wa Citizen Economic Inclusion, re tshwanelwa ke gore re o dire sentle o o yang to empower Batswana.

E bo e le gore gatwe nnyaa, batho ba tlaa re leba jang, jaanong re tsenye kgang ya targeted citizen gore re se ka ra tloga ra lebiwa ka leitlho le sele, re itse gore mafatshe a mangwe fa ba dira molao, ba felela ba dira gore objectives tsa one ke tse ba di akantseng, ba a di batla.
Rona jaanong ke fa molao ga o a siama gatwe nnyaa, re tlaa nna re ntse re o baakanya jaaka re tlaabo re tsweletse.

Ke batla go leka go supa gore ke tshwenngwa ke gore mo tirong ya molao jaaka re o dira jaana, go na le dishonesty e e gakgamatsang mo tirong ya molao wa lefatshe la Botswana.

Kana ga se lantlha re dira molao, melao e re 13 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) neng re e dira e e mo tirisong gompieno, ditshwetso tse di neng di tsewa ke administration e e fetileng, ke tse di neng di tsewa ke administration ya Party ya Domkrag.

Re ne re tsene mo greylisting ka lebaka la ditshwetso tsa administration ya Domkrag.

Jaanong ke tshwenngwa ke gore e bo e le gore bo Honourable Molao fa ba bua, ba batla gore e nne o kare e ne e le mongwe, e ne e se bone.
Ke batla gore letsatsi leno kgang e ke e tlhatswe e fele, ya gore batho ba se ka ba itatola dilo tse ba di dirileng ka nako ya administration ele ka fa ba neng ba baakanya melao ya teng.

Ke sone se Rapitsenyane a neng a botsa kwa Kgotleng ya Serowe gore le ne le le bokgakala bokae fa go senyega?

Honourable Tautona wa lefatshe leno His Excellency Mokgweetsi Masisi was Vice President in that administration, e e leng gore gatwe ke yone e e dirileng gore re tsene mo greylisting.
Rre Molale, right at the Office of the President as Minister in that administration.

Rraetsho Rre Slumber Tsogwane was at Local Government e le full Minister ka administration e gotweng e dirile gore re tsene mo greylisting.

Rre Molao was at Agriculture mo go yone administration e a tlholang a e sotla e e dirileng to be greylisted.

Honourable Autlwetse was at Local Government as Assistant Minister ka nako ya administration yone eo.
Rre Mzwinila was at Lands, so o kgona go bona gore a number of Members of Parliament (MPs) ba e leng gore ke Ministers gompieno, ba ne ba le teng mo go yone administration e e re tsentseng mo greylisting.

Jaanong ba se ka ba batla gore ba re greylisting e e dirilwe ke bo semangmang, e se bone mme ba ne ba le Matona.

MR TSOGWANE: Clarification.

Ke a leboga Honourable Wynter Mmolotsi.


Nnyaa, kana ke gore se o se gwetlhang fela, o batla gore o re gwetlhe gore re bue gore e rile fa go tla melao e, ke mang yo o neng a re tshwarisitse bothata e bile a gana gore e ka fetisiwa.

Ke sone se o batlang gore o se gwetlhe mme ga re na go ya koo ka gore go setse go iponaditse gore motho yo e leng gore e ne e le tshosoerweleng mo go ganeng ka dikgang tse o setse a itshupa, setšhaba se a mo itse jaanong ga re na go ya koo.
If you were to ask all the people ba o ba biditseng bo Rre Molale, nna le the current President, ba tlaa ya go supa and you can go to the minutes of the Cabinet, you will realise and see gore motho yo o neng a gana ke mang.

I thank you.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Re a di batla minutes tseo, di bonwa kae sir?

MR MMOLOTSI: Jaanong ke go tlhoka boikarabelo Mr Speaker, fa e le gore Cabinet, which is the Executive, e ka re e dirile ditshwetso, e bo e tla e re semangmang a le mongwefela ke ene yo o neng a gana.
Ga ke bone gore golo mo go tshwanelwa ke gore e nne excuse.

Kana go raya gore e tlaa re His Excellency Masisi a tsamaya, ba tlaabo ba mo itatola le ene ba re re ne re sena le ene mo diphokong, o ne a re patika ka tsone fela re sa di batle.

MR LUCAS: On a point of clarification.

O ne o bua kgang e o reng ba ne ba le bokgakala bo kae fa go dirwa melao e e neng ya felela e dirile gore re tsene mo greylisting.
Potso ke gore rraetsho, ba ne ba le bokgakala bokae fa go tla molao o gompieno gotweng o direlwa dipaakanyo?

A molao o ga o bone gore gongwe o ne o dirilwe ke lawyers tsa DIS, bone ba sa o bona, ke gone ba neng ba o bona fa re bua ka mathata a gore molao o o a gobelela?

Ke a leboga rraetsho.

MR KEORAPETSE: Further quick elucidation.

Ke ne ke re wena o bona e le batho ba mofuta mang, go tsewa ditshwetso tse ba sa dumalaneng le tsone, ba bo ba tswelela ba nna in Cabinet?
Lebaka le le kanakana motho a le in Cabinet mme a sa dumalane le ditshwetso tse a reng di baya lefatshe ka fa mosing.

Ke motho wa mofuta mang yo o ntseng jalo, yo o sa itholeng marapo mo Cabinet e e ntseng jalo, e go tsewang ditshwetso tse a sa dumalaneng le tsone?

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR MMOLOTSI: Selo santlha fela, golo moo ke go tlhoka boikarabelo ga maemo a ntlha gore... HONOURABLE MEMBER: O kobilwe ka dilepe kwa Palapye, ga se gore o ithotse marapo.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)...


MR MMOLOTSI: Ke go tlhoka boikarabelo jo bo gakgamatsang because le mo molaong wa lefatshe la Botswana, gatwe fa o na le batho ba dira molato, you are an accomplice to the crime.

Therefore, ga re ka ke ra re ope o ne a seyo, re itse fela gore ditshenyo tse di dirwang, di dirwa ke batho ba le mmogo, otherwise ba ka bo ba ne ba phatlalala mo Cabinet, sepe sa se ka sa dirwa (transacted), go supa gore ga ba dumalane.
Jaanong fa e le gore Honourable Tsogwane o batla go tlhalosa gore semangmang ke ene yo o neng a ba patika go dira dilo, gompieno molao ke o, semangmang yoo ga a yo mo molao o o tlang o re o batla go swelela Batswana.

Jaanong one ka gore semangmang ga a yo, la re jaanong re tlile to blame mang mo go one?

Fa e le gore gompieno Honourable Mmusi o tla ka amendments di feta 17 mo molaong o o dirilweng ke lona, gone foo la re ke mang yo o le patikang?

Ke mang yo o sa reetseng kgakololo?


Ke mang yo le tlileng go mo itatola mo nakong e e tlang?

14 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Dilo tse Mr Speaker, di supa boeteledipele jo bo senang boammaaruri.

E rile fa ke sa dumalane le tsamaiso ya Domkrag le Rre Motswaledi, Rre Ntuane le ba bangwe, re ne ra tswa mo Domkrag re bona gore party e ga e na boammaaruri.
Ke eng bone fa ba ne ba dumela gore dilo ga di tsamaye sentle, ba ne ba sa tswe mo Cabinet, ba boa ba tswa le mo Domkrag ka lebaka la gore dilo di ne di sa siama?

Golo mo ke go …(Interruptions)… fela ka gore batho ba rata maemo, ba leba dimpa tsa bone.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le nne boammaaruri, le kobilwe.

le bua MR MMOLOTSI: Ke sone se e leng gore Mr Speaker, ke ne ke kopa gore a re direng molao ka boammaaruri.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR SPEAKER: A ko le leseng ngwana yo mongwe a fetse, la re go rileng?

MR MMOLOTSI: Fa re dira molao bagaetsho, re tshwanelwa ke gore re neele dikakanyo tsa rona tsotlhe tiro ya molao.

Golo mo ga Palamente le go dira molao, go direlwa molao tshiamo le tsamaiso ya Puso e e siameng ya lefatshe.
Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, re tshwanelwa ke gore re e tseye ka tlhoafalo e re itseng gore melao e e sa siamang e ka nyeletsa lefatshe, melao e e siameng e ka baakanya lefatshe.

Ke sone se ka dinako tsotlhe ke eletsang gore Matona le Mapalamente re ka itsaya ka tlhoafalo mo e leng gore ope ga a ka ke a tla a re morago ga molao o sena go nna o dirwa a o itatola, a re go botswe semangmang, ene ga a itse sepe.
E bile Mr Chairperson, ke utlwa ke tshoga gore motho yo o mo level ya Bothusa Tautona, a ba a ka kgona go itatola collective responsibility e e tserweng ke Cabinet.

Fa a ka nna Tautona, e ya go nna Tautona wa mofuta mang, a o ya go solofela gore Cabinet ya gagwe e ikamanye le ditshwetso tsa gagwe?

LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Point of order.

Nnyaa, a a bue boammaaruri, re itse gore ke motho yo o se keng a bua boammaaruri mme fela gompieno a a bue boammaaruri.

Ga ke a re ke itatola ditshwetso tseo.


Fa a re re ne re le kae, ke ne ke batla go mo neela the perspective ya gore re ne re le teng re gakolola.

Yo o neng a tsaya ditshwetso tse re neng tsa re baya ka fa mosing o teng, ke semangmang.

Golo mo ga se go itatola.

That is why we have continued re tla ka melao eo, ra bo ra e dira.

Re e ema nokeng mme ga se go itatola.

Ke batla ke mo tlhalosetse fela gore golo moo ga se boammaaruri mo a go buang a re re itatola ditshwetso.
Re tshwanetse re supe gore yo o tsereng ditshwetso la bofelo ke mang against kgakololo ya rona jaaka re ne re dira.

Re ne ra felela re fetisitse melao eo bosigo.

MR MMOLOTSI: So, Cabinet ya gompieno, ke a le gakolola, le a mo utlwa moeteledipele wa lona.

Go raya gore le lona fa ba re le dire dilo tse le sa di batleng, le tlhalose gore ke bone ba ba le patikang go dira dilo tse le sa di batleng.
Fa e le gore ga le dumalane le ka fa dilo di dirwang ka teng, dirang jaaka Honourable Mpho Balopi who is honourable, yo o neng a tswa fela by resigning a re, “ke emela fale, ga ke batle go tsena mo nthagarageng e e ntseng jaana.” Le tlogele go rata maemo mme le itse gore go ya go felela go tsentse lefatshe la Botswana mo mathateng.

Bagaetsho, maemo ga a tshwanela go tsamaelana le gore motho a itebatse gore go na le Batswana ba a ba emetseng, ba a tshwanelwang ke go ba sireletsa ka dinako tsotlhe.
Fa moeteledipele a tswa mo tseleng, le bona a le ntsha mo tseleng, se reng nnyaa, re tlaa reng ka gore o batla jalo, ganang.

Le se ka la dira jaaka Molao yo e leng gore fa gotwe a o kgotshe… HONOURABLE MEMBER: O tswetse kwa Botswana Movement for Democray (BMD) maemo ka gore o ne o jelwe kwa Bobonong.

MR MMOLOTSI: Golo mo go ntseng jalo le dira selo se se sa siamang.

Go ka re babalela re le lefatshe, go ka re senyetsa kagiso, mme le bone Batswana go ka ba kgobera maikutlo.
Ka mafoko a a kalo Mr Speaker, ke kope Mapalamente gore a re tlogeleng go ikamanya le go itebateba.

Re lebe leina le re tlaa le tlogelang mo Palamenteng gore e tlaabo e le la mofuta mang.

Melao e re tlaa e tlogelang mo Palamenteng e, a ke e e ka reng re e leba re le kwa malwapeng after having retired, ra nna proud of ourselves gore re kile ra dira e e ntseng jaana, re e direla Batswana.

Le tshwanetse le itse gore melao e re e dirang, fa e le gore e maswe, e ya go le babalela.
Melao ya DIS e e neng e dirwa ka nako ya ga Tautona Khama a le teng gone foo, gompieno bona gore go diragala eng.

O babalelwa ke yone melao e e dirilweng ka nako eo mme le lona go tlaa le diragalela.

Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo Mr Speaker, this was just a warning e ke lekang go gakolola bakaulengwe gore fa go le monate salaries di le kwa godimo, gompieno le e ja monate ka dikoloi tse di ntsho, go tlaa le tlela.

Ke a leboga Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Order!

Order!


Honourable Members, may I call upon the Minister of Defence, Justice and Security to reply to the debate.

15 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, …(Interruptions)…gompieno dikgang tse re ntseng re di bewa pele ke Mapalamente a Ntlo e, a a tlotlegang.
Mr Speaker, ke batla gore Mapalamente le Batswana ba gakologelwe gore e ne ya re ka di 24 fa re simolola… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Your volume is low.

Your volume is low Honourable Minister.

MR MMUSI: Thank you your Honour.

O a nkutlwa jaanong?

Sorry, I have a hissing voice.

My apology, I have a hissing voice.

Ke na le flu, so, le tlaa intshwarela.


Mr Speaker, e ne ya re fa re simolola kgang e ka di 24, ra tla mo General Assembly go rolela Mapalamente a Ntlo e e tlotlegang e melao e re tlileng go e fetisa, e re e tletseng.

Melao e yotlhe ke dumela gore e ne e le 16, go bo go nna le wa bo 17 o re neng re tla go o kopela certificate of urgency.

Molao o o ne o tla jaana e le gore kwa ntlheng go ne go tulwe o salele kwa morago.
Ba bogakolodi fa ba ntse ba lebaleba, ba lemoga gore molao o, o a tlhokafala gore le one o tsamaye le melao e. Ke sone se e neng ya re re thulanya ditlhogo le boeteledipele, ra itse gore Palamente go na le ka fa e tsamaisiwang ka teng.

Go na le Standing Orders, mme Standing Order 72.3 se a re letla gore re ka tla mo Palamenteng re tle go kopa Mr Speaker le Palamente e e tlotlegang gore re na le molao ke o. Melao e e tshwaragane, jaaka e tsamaya jaana, e tlhokafala yotlhe.
E ne ya re fa re rola, ga rola Honourable Serame, Minister wa Madi e le ene a tshotseng the overarching law o re neng re batla go o fetisa.

Mme le nna ke rotse melao mo Palamenteng e, e le eight; o e le wa bo nine.

Ke batla batho ba itse gore tota re tswa kae.

Melao e mengwe e e eight e, Palamente e ne ya e amogela yotlhe mme e ntse e le mengwefela.

Mme le one o, ke tla jaana ke o tlisa kwa go lona, ka le rolela le le Palamente gore molao o, re o tlhokela eng.
Ra bua gore molao o, o tshwanetse gore o tsamaye yotlhe e le package ka fa re neng re lebeletse ka teng.

Re ne ra o kopela certificate of urgency mme ra o tsenya.

E ne ya re re le kwa General Assembly, Mapalamente a a tlotlegang ba ne ba ntsha bogakolodi jwa bone.

Ba bua ka fa ba neng ba bua ka teng, ka fa ba neng ba sa dumele ka ditsetlana dingwe.

Re ne re na le ba bogakolodi go tswa mo ministry le drafters go tswa Attorney General’s Chambers re ntse re tshwaragane le bone.
Komiti e e lebeletseng melao e ya Eastern and Southern Africa Anti- Money Laundering Group (ESAAMLG) le FATF kwa Ministry of Finance.

Ke batla go gakolola Ntlo e gore e rile fa re le kwa General Assembly, Mapalamente ba phathi ya kganetso e leng Rre Ramogapi le Honourable Reatile, e rile fa go tswalelwa ba nthaya ba re, “o ye go baakanya, re a itse gore o motho yo o reetsang.” Ka ba raya ka re, re tlaa boela kwa morago re ya go baakanya.
Go tswa lone letsatsi leo, ra nna fa fatshe le bodiredi jo bo mo tirong e, ra lebelela molao o gore re ka o baakanya jang.

Ke ne ka boela kwa go bagaetsho ba BDP, le bone ra nna ra buisana, ra gakololana fa re gakololang teng gore mme re tlaa baakanya fa kae, re tlaa sutisa fa kae.

E rile ka Mosupologo yo o neng a feta o, ba ofisi ya Ministry of Defence, Justice and Security, dipaakanyo tsotlhe ba bo ba setse ba di neetse Clerk kwa Palamenteng.
Dipaakanyo tse ga di a ya kwa Palamenteng maabane kana maloba a maabane.

Ke batla go tlhalosa gore ba le tsayang gore pressure le ne le re e tsentse jaaka le ntse le tlhalosa, nnyaa.

Re sale re isitse dipaakanyo tse kwa Palamenteng.

Re ntse re lebeletse ka kwano ka Mosupologo gore dipaakanyo tse re tlaa di tlisang fa jaanong re tla go dira second reading… MR BOKO: Clarification.

Thank you Mr Speaker.

Ke a go utlwa Tona gore wa re dipaakanyo tse le sale le di dirile.
Bakaulengwe ba ba ntseng ba bua bo Honourable Healy le Rre Rakgare gareng ga ba bangwe, ba farologana le wena.

Ba itse gore dikgakololo tse, di ne di tswa kwa BOFEPUSU, Mapalamenteng, civic society ka kakaretso le botlhe fela.

Ba re le supile fa le le Puso e e reetsang, e bile e amogela.

Jaanong go farologana le se o se buang gore le sa le le dirile dipaakanyo unless o nthaya o re, ga ba bue boammaaruri.

MR MMUSI: Gakere ke go bolelela gore ke rona ba re kgweetsang.
Ke rona ba re leng mo tirong e. Ke go tlhalosetsa gore go diragetse eng.

Babegadikgang ba ba neng ba letsa ba ba farologaneng ba ntshwara, bangwe ka ba kopa gore ba name ba re file nako.
Ba se ka ba batla gore re tswele kwa go bone, kana jaaka ba ne ba re laletsa gore re tle go tlhalosa, ka ba raya ka re nnyaa, sedibeng go iwa ka tsela, ga ke ka ke ka tabogela go ya kwa babegadikgannyeng kana kwa dipampiring, kana kae go ya go bua ka molao o. Molao o o tshwanetse gore o fete pele kwa Palamenteng, ke bo ke notify amendments.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification Minister.


MR MMUSI: Honourable Lucas, a ko le nteseng ke tsamaye, ke batla go tlhalosetsa Batswana, why e re fa motho a tlhalosa, e bo le iteega dipelo?

MR LUCAS: Nnyaa, re ne re batla go tlhaloganya.

16 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MR MMUSI: Le tlaa swa ka bonana kana fa le ka dira jalo.
MR LUCAS: Ke ne ke botsa fa Mokhurutshe gore kante molao o fa o tla o o tlisa ka Certificate of Urgency, a o ne o setse o kile wa feta ka Attorney General’s Chambers, Cabinet?

Fa e le gore o ne o fetile ka Attorney General’s Chambers le Cabinet, a bone ba ne ba bona o siame fela go fitlhelela ka nako eo?

Ke a leboga rraetsho.

MR MMUSI: Tanki sir.

Ga go na molao ope… kana melao yotlhe are drafted kwa Attorney General’s Chambers.
Jaaka ke go bolelela, melao e e ne e fetile lantlha e le 16, mme o, ba ba gakololang ba ofisi ya rona yone ya FATF, ya re fa ba lebelela melao, ba lebelela recommendations tsotlhe tse ba di beilweng pele, ba lemoga gore ke molao o re o tlhokang, mme ba o tlisa kwa go rona ka gore o ne o setse, mme jaaka ke bua, re ne ra o tsenelela thata beke e e fetileng le rona.
Ra o tsenelelela kwa teng gore re o tlhatswe, mme re o kopetse Certificate of Urgency, ka gore gongwe bangwe jaaka ke bua, re ne ra se ka ra iketla pele gore tota re fe molao nako gore o tle o tlisiwe ka steps tsa one, ra simolola go o kgala, mme rona ba re neng re o tshotse jaaka ke bua, ba nne ba re ba a ntaletsa ba re ke tle go o buelela kana ke tle go o defend, ke ne ka ba raya ka re ba mphe nako ka gore ke ne ke itse gore ke ya kae.
Ke ne ka tsamaya, ka nna ka buisana le boeteledipele, His Honour the Vice President (VP), le ene ke ntse ke mmolelela, beke e e fetileng le beke yone e, mme le ene Tautona, ra boela kwa Khuduthamageng le bone ra ba bontsha, ra boela kwa caucus jaaka re ne re tlile le maabane kwa General Assembly gore tsela e jaanong e re e tsamayang e…(Interruptions)… so, ke tsaya gore... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

MR MMUSI: A ko o iketle Motsamai.

Jaanong o tloga o re ke a go ila go siame rraetsho, bua.
MR MOTSAMAI: Nnyaa, tswelela ka story.

MR MMUSI: …(Laughter!

)…Okay sir.

Nnyaa, mme ke ne ke tlhalosa.

Ke tlhalosetsa Motswana kwa gae, le lona Mapalamente and there is no how… we appreciate dikgang tse le di buileng, we appreciate dikgakololo tse le di re beileng pele.

Re a di amogela and we have corrected wherever we can correct.

Re amogela dikgakololo tsotlhe tse di beilweng ke Batswana, ga re di gane, we appreciate them.
Ke tiro ya rona gore fa re kgonang to accommodate teng, re accommodate teng, mme go tlaa nna fa re sa accommodate teng.

Ga go reye gore e bo e le gore, ke gore jaanong lona e ka re le batla go tsaya limelight, no, no, no, limelight ga se ya lona borraetsho.

Golo fa re ne re bereka, le rona re theogetse, re a utlwana?

Ke utlwile dikgakololo tsa lona.


Dance floor e ke ya rona rotlhe, re mo tirong e rotlhe, re e tshwaraganetse, mme by the time le tlisa kana bo MISA ba ya kae, go iwa kwa kae, kwa kae, re ne re setse re beile amendments tse kwa ga Clerk, kwa Palamenteng, gore a itse gore re ya go tsamaya jang.

Jaanong ke ne ke re fela ke tlhalose kgang e gore Motswana a e itse gore Puso e, yes, re a reetsa, re a buisana, go nniwa fa fatshe, go ntshiwa mabaka.
Ga re patike, ee, gongwe le gongwe go ka nna le phoso fa e diragetseng teng, mme e bile gape it is very unfortunate gore fa re tlile ka molao o ntse jaana, jaanong batho bone ba kgarameletsa kwa DIS, ba batla go tshosa batho gore DIS e ya go dira eng, go ya go diragala eng, ga re ka ke ra bereka jalo.

Golo fa re batla go isa lefatshe kwa pele.

Re tliseditswe mo term e from 2019 to 2024, re tshwanetse go bona re dirile ditiro.
Ga re ka ke ra nna ra tshosa, ra palelwa ke go dira ditiro, e le gore re lebeletse gore ba ba neng ba le fale go diragetse jang.

Re fano go tla go dira melao, re tlaa e tlisa, re tlaa e bereka, re tlaa e baakanya.

le lotlhe Jaanong molao one o re o tliseditse amendments.

le tse ke dumelang gore Amendments Mapalamente, le letse le di bone.

E rile maabane ka 6:49 p.m, Rre Nfila communicated these amendments mo WhatsApp group ya Mapalamente.

So, le ne la di lebelela.


We assured you le go tswa phakela re ne re le kwa General Assembly, we took you through on what we are going to do.

Re ne re ntse re le bolelela gore ke se re ikaelelang go se dira.

Selo se re se dirang se ga se tlholo ntšha, e bile re tlisa molao jaana, ga se selo se sesha, ke selo se se ntseng se diragala, bo Honourable Wynter o sale a tsene mo Palamenteng e le monana, o tsofalela fa, jaanong ke dilo tse a neng a ntse a itse gore di a diragala.
Ga se selo se sesha gore re ka tla go fetola gompieno Honourable... HONOURABLE MEMBER: O mpuisa jang?

MR MMUSI: Sorry, o santse o le monana mo Palamenteng.

Honourable Keorapetse... Molao o jaaka le le Mapalamente jaana, le tlile fa go dira melao, go tla go ganetsa, re bo re baakanya.

MR MAJAGA: Motho a na le phandane e e kana, o tsofetse motho yo.

17 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MR MMUSI: Jaanong mme fela ke ne ke batla gore ke e beye jalo gore Batswana ba itse kwa lelwapeng gore batho bangwe ba se ka ba tla go leka go tla go tsaya limelight fa.

Re sale re beile kgang e. Honourable Reatile o ne a nkgalemela... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga o batle limelight fela?

MR MMUSI: Nnyaa rraetsho, ke tlisitse tiro, ke mo tirong golo fa, mme e bile wena o letse o nkakgotse tsala ya me, ke a go leboga thata gore o ne wa farologana le ba bangwe.
Honourable Reatile o ne a nkgalemela le Honourable Ramogapi, gore rraetsho re kopa gore o make sure gore o dira tiro e e tlhamaletseng, mme fela ke batla go lebogela Mapalamente otlhe a a akgetseng mo molaong o ke o beileng, bangwe ba ne ba batla go o leba e santse e le molao wa maloba, ba sa batle go lebelela tse di yang kwa pele, mme tota gone ga re ka ke ra lebelela tsa maabane, fa tsa gompieno di le mo tafoleng, re tshwanetse go di lebelela irrespective of what molao o ya go tsamaya ka amendments which I have already noticed kwa Palamenteng and that is why they are noticed kwa Palamenteng.
Ke dumela gore ke process e Palamente e berekang ka yone.

Ke teng ka fa Palamente e tsamaisiwang ka teng.

Se ke se dirang se, ga se selo se sesha, e bile ga se gore se pharologanyo gope, gore ke bo ke tla ka molao, ke bo ke tla go o kopela amendments.

Le maabane re tlhotse fa re lebeletse amendments.

Honourable Saleshando have noticed amendments mo melaong di se kana ka sepe.

So, le nna ke tlisitse amendments, Mopalamente mongwe le mongwe o ka tlisa amendments mo molaong gore o baakanyege.
Jaanong Mr... MR RAMOGAPI: Elucidation.

Ke go netefaletsa gore amendments tse go raya gore re ka sutisa molao o, wa re rurifaletsa gore nnyaa, ga e ka ke ya re o tsena kwa, wa tloga wa fetola gape wa re jaanong ke a di busa.

Re dumalane le wena ka pelo e tshweu re re nnyaa, re dumalana le molao o tota ka kitso ya gore amendments ke tse re di tshwere tse.
MR MMUSI: Once amendments are approved mo Palamenteng jaaka di tlaabo di tsena jaana, Honourable Ramogapi, ga go na jaaka ke ka di fetola ke sa tle kwa Palamenteng, mme wena fela jaaka o ntse o ntshepha, o tlaa tsoga o ntse o ntshepha, ke dumela gore o tshephe fela jalo.

Le wena Honourable Hikuama jaaka o ntshepha, ke itse o le motho yo o ntshephang, ke dumela jalo.

Honourable Keorapetse le ene fela jalo, mme le se mo phathing le nna.
Mme fela ke le tsere fela lotlhe, ke bereka le lona, re tlaa berekisana fela jalo, re tlisa melao re tla go e baya fa.

Lephata le la me ke la melao, mme se lebaleng gore re tlisitse melao, re setse re fetisitse melao e le eight.

Ke raya gore mafoko a me a ne a le kalo.

E ne e le gore ke tlhatswetse Batswana gore ba itse gore golo mo ga go a simologa maabane, e bile ga go a tlisiwa ke bo semangmang, e bile go ne go sena pressure.

Ee, re amogetse.
Ee, re amogetse.

E bile le makwalo a a neng a le publicised a bo MISA, a bo mang, ga ke ise ke ko ke a bale, ke ne ke a bona ka gore ke ne ke itse gore re theogetse.

MR SALESHANDO: On a point of clarification.

Ke a go leboga.
Ke a go leboga.

Le fa o re o ne o se ka fa tlase ga kgatelelo, kana se batho ba se gakgamalelang ke gore, la kopana le le Khuduthamaga, o le teng, Tautona a le teng, Mothusa Tautona a le teng, Matona a mangwe a le foo, bodirelapuso bo le foo, le bo Attorney General ba le foo, la ipona le dumalana gore molao o re o isa kwa Palamenteng, o o reng go ka reediwa megala ya batho go sena court order.

O gompieno o tlang ka amendments di se kana ka sepe.
Le fa o re o di tlisitse …(Inaudible)… o a itse gore o di tlisitse fa pele ga Palamente maabane.

Segakolodi se ne se le kae le le Cabinet le sa bone gore dilo tse dintsi mo molaong o di a fatlha?
Sa bobedi se ke kopang gore o tle o wele ka sone, ka gore o nnile le benefit ya dikgakololo tsa semolao, kgang e ya the assumed identity, a go na le melao mengwe e o ka re e bontshang wa re, go na le melao ya mofuta o, o o letlelelang gore Palamente e ka rurifatsa gore tsamayang le ye go dira document e e tlaabong e se ya boammaaruri, go and produce a false but legal document?

Le courts di beye stamp gore, ee re a itse gore ke false document, but re batla gore e bo e siame ka fa molaong.
Re ka benchmark le melao efe ya mafatshe a mangwe go bona gore go tsamaisiwa jang?

Ka gore go santse go pala go wela mo go nna gore, ke tlaa tšhaisa gompieno ke re ke dirile thulaganyo e ntšha mo lefatsheng la Botswana e go tlaabong go na le false documents tse di beilweng stamp ke Palamente le makgotla a ditsheko.

MR MMUSI: Mma ke go arabe fela jaana Honourable Saleshando.
Kana gompieno jaana false documents kana false identity tsa go reetsa, ke fa e le gore lefatshe le beilwe mo mosing, there is danger to the country.

Re tshwanetse gore re sireletse lefatshe ka sengwe le sengwe.
Fa e le gore lefatshe le mo kgatelelong, le mo mathateng, re a bona gore mafatshe a kgona go tlhaselwa ke ditsuolodi, mme fa re batla to intercept gore ditsuolodi tse di se ka tsa tsenela ka kwano, we can give 18 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) a false identity to somebody to go and join ditsuolodi tseo, gore a tle a kgone go re fa information.
We are protecting the country with that.

MR SALESHANDO: Honourable Mmusi, fa o ba fa false identity, a re re ke Omang le passport, a di tsena mo database ya rona ya Omang kana ka gore ke false, ke e e fa thoko?

Akere lekgotla la ditsuolodi ga le ka ke la itse gore ga e yo mo database ya Omang, a o tsenngwa mo dipampiring tsa rona tsa Omang mo e leng gore le kamoso fa a tlhokafala you issue a false death certificate?

How do you close that chapter?

MR MMUSI: Aha!


that chapter gets closed immediately when that event closes.

Fa e le gore re go raya re re ke three months, fa o fetsa project eo in three months re itse gore e wetse.

Re tlaabo re tswala chapter eo.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… MR MMUSI: Okay, nnyaa ke ne ke re ke mmotsha fela gore e tlaabo e tswalelwa gone foo.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: A e tsena mo database?

That is the question.

MR MMUSI: Nnyaa mo ke kgang e sele, ke kgang ya intelligence.
ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT AND FOOD SECURITY (MR MOLEBATSI): On a point of clarification.

Honourable Leader of the Opposition o ntse a botsa gore ke kae kwa mafatsheng a go nang le melao ya assumed identity.

A teng mafatshe a a dirang jalo, ke fe sekai, kwa Australia go na le Crimes (Assumed Identities) Act of 2009, o e leng gore it was effected ka di 17th December 2021.

So this is common, ga go go ntšha.


Jaaka re dira fela jaana, assumed identity e teng, go kopiwa kwa courts, it is operational as we speak.

Ga se selo se e leng gore ga se diragale.

Gongwe o a itse Honourable Mmusi gore go ntse jalo.

MR MMUSI: Ke ne ke sa batle re bua ka mafatshe ka gore re dumalane mo Palamenteng e gore ga re ye go bua ka mafatshe a mangwe.

I thank you Mr Speaker.

Ke tsaya gore ke tlhalositse.


Ke lebogetse dikakgelo tse di neng di tswa kwa Mapalamenteng a a fano, bontsi jwa bone supported molao o ke ba o beileng pale.

Ke re Mr Speaker thank you.

I therefore move that the Criminal Procedure and Evidence (Controlled Investigations) Bill, 2022 (No.

1 of 2022) be read a second time.

Thank you Mr Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee - Forthwith.


ASSEMBLY IN COMMITTEE (CHAIRPERSON in the Chair) CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) MR CHAIRPERSON (MR SKELEMANI): Order!

Order!

Honourable Members.

The Bill before you has 34 Clauses and a number of amendments have been noticed.

Clause 1 agreed to.

MR CHAIRPERSON: There is an amendment noticed at Clause 2.

Clause 2 MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Mr Chairperson, ke kopa gore ke tlhalose sengwe, allow me to present the amendment as follows so as to ensure that there is clarity on a noticed amendment as to which amendments are substitutions and which ones are the new insertions.

I beg your indulgence to do so at Paragraph 1, 5 and 10.

MR CHAIRPERSON: No Minister!

No, our records must come out quite clearly, so you do them arithmetically, one after the other.
MR MMUSI: That is what I am going to do Mr Chairperson, I was just explaining but I will be doing them that way Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Honourable Minister.

MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

The Bill is amended at Clause 2 appearing at page B.3 by substituting for the following definitions, the following new definitions - We have just made that change Mr Chairperson, that there is a substitution and they are in sessions.
We are saying; (a) “controlled investigation” includes - 19 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage (a) undercover operations; (b) covert operations; (c) use of informants; (d) controlled delivery; and (e) interception of communications;”; (f) “court” or “the court” means the High Court;”; and (g) “judicial officer” means a Judge of the High Court;”.
And by inserting in the correct alphabetical order, the following new definitions - (b) ““Committee” means a Committee established under Section 13;”; (c) ““controlled investigation” includes - (a) undercover operations; (b) covert operations; (c) use of informants; (d) controlled delivery; and (e) interception of communications;”; (f) ““court” or “the court” means the High Court;”; and (a) “Chairperson” means a chairperson appointed in terms of paragraph 4 of the Schedule; (g) ““judicial officer” means a Judge of the High Court;”.
I so move Mr Chairperson.

(b) “Committee” means a Committee established under Section 13… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, you are doing exactly what I am saying you should not do.

In terms of today’s Order Paper, immediately after amendment 1 which deals with a, b, c, up to e. MR MMUSI: It is just because Mr Chairperson, I am trying to explain that Chairperson and Committee which is a, and b, are new definitions.

And then a, b, c, d and e, are substitutions.


HONOURABLE MEMBER: Gakere Honourable Mmusi, kana o di tswala ka bo Honourable Minister, fa gotweng Minister of Justice, ke gone fa o emang teng, ga o ka ke wa fetela kwa tlase ga yone.

Re bo re fetsa ka yone, fa re tsena kwa go 3… MR MMUSI: Okay, but I will do what Mr Chairperson wants.
MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, maybe it is Parliament which misunderstood you and therefore produce an Order Paper …(Interruptions)… which you never intended should be put.

It should be quite neat for the purpose of the record, if you just went by this Order Paper and read your amendments up to e. MR MMUSI: I will do that Mr Chairperson, thank you.
The Bill is amended at Clause 2 appearing at page B.3 by substituting for the following definitions, the following new definitions - (a) “Chairperson” means a chairperson appointed in terms of paragraph 4 of the Schedule; MR REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, ke ne ke re mo amendments tsa ga Tona ka fa a sa tswang go di supa ka teng, a tlhalose gore e tle e re fa ke tlhopha le ene, ke bo ke mo tlhalogantse.
Mo go ya (a) undercover operations and (b) covert operations, ke tsaya gore ka fa ke tlhaloganyang ka teng, o kare o bua gore ke batla lebese, kgantele a bo a re ke batla mašhi ka gore undercover le covert ke ngwana a le mongwefela, ga se twins.

A tlhalose eo gore why re nna le (a), le (b), re bitsa motho a le mongwefela ka maina a a farologanyeng?

I thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR KAPINGA (OKAVANGO): Thank you Mr Chairperson.


I had raised my hand earlier just when we started debating the amendments to ask where the Schedule being referred to fa go buiwa ka definition ya Chairperson, gore se kae so that we can see paragraph 4 of such Schedule?

Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: If I can try and answer what the Minister says and I go by the Order Paper, mine indicates that there is an amendment at Clause 34 that introduces a Schedule.
If you look at Page 7 of today’s Order Paper at the bottom, it says, “the Bill is amended by inserting immediately after Clause 34 appearing at B.16 the following Schedule.” I am sure the Honourable Minister o tlaa e tlhatswa fa go tlhokafala.

MR MMUSI: Mr Chairperson, ga ke sure gore a Honourable Kapinga o ne a botsa gore Schedule se kae.
Se simolola mo page… MR CHAIRPERSON: Fa ke mo utlwa sentle Honourable Minister, o ne a re when you say “Chairperson” means a Chairperson appointed in terms of paragraph 4 of the Schedule, which is that Schedule.

20 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes, but you have explained Mr Chairperson, it is at the back of Page 7 of the Order Paper.
MR CHAIRPERSON: That is what I said but ke ne ke re gongwe Minister o itse sephiri o ka tlhalosa.

MR MMUSI: Ga ke itse gore o ne o raya se sele sefe Mr Chairperson ka gore Schedule sone se teng fa.

MR CHAIRPERSON: O ne wa se ka wa utlwa gore Honourable Kapinga o ne a reng?

MR MMUSI: Ke ne ke utlwa a bua ka B.3 kwa re buang gore re tsenya definition ya Chairperson e e leng gore it is appointed in terms of paragraph 4 of the Schedule, which is Schedule 1 e e kwa morago e kwa page 7.
MR CHAIRPERSON: That is what I said.

So, confirm se o re ee, o a dumalana.

MR MMUSI: Ke a dumalana mongwame.

MR CHAIRPERSON: I am sure Honourable Kapinga now has heard you.

MR MMUSI: Ee rra.

Honourable Reatile o ne a botsa ka undercover operation le covert operation.

Undercover operation is the arching, ke yone …(Inaudible)… then bo covert, use of informers ke tsone tse di tlang ka fa tlase.
Ke gore undercover operation ke yone e ke ka reng e kwa godimo, and then bo covert di tla ka fa tlase e le a special operation.

These are technical or security words.

MR CHAIRPERSON: I think ga le utlwane.

If I heard Honourable Reatile properly a re; under (c) controlled investigations include (a) undercover operations, (b) covert operations.

A bo a re ene ka fa a tlhaloganyang ka teng, undercover operations and covert mean the same thing.

That was his argument.


A re a mme go na le pharologanyo Mohurutshe?

MR MMUSI: Ee rra, ka fa go ba… MR CHAIRPERSON: Nnyaa, nna ke tlhalosa fela gore o ne a reng, wena o ka mo araba.

MR MMUSI: Ee, ke a mo araba sir.

Kana undercover will ensure the clarity in the scope of investigative techniques.

Ke yone undercover.

Jaanong covert is a particular operation.

Ga ke itse gore a o a nkutlwa Honourable Reatile?

MR REATILE: Ga re ka ke ra nganga ka dilo tsa Makgoa Mohurutshe.

E tlogele gone foo.
E tlogele gone foo.

Le fa o ka lebelela bo (m) (f) e tlaabo e le undercover or covert.

Ke gone ka fa beng ba sone ba se buang ka teng.

Anyway, magodimo ga a we, ga re ka ke ra tla go ema fa.

MR MMUSI: Tanki sir.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2 as amended agreed to.

New Clause MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): The Bill is amended at page B.4 by inserting immediately after Clause 2, the following new clause, and renumbering subsequent clauses accordingly - “Application 3.
This Act binds the state.” Ke yone e e tsenang foo Mr Chairperson.

I so move Mr Chairperson.

Amendment agreed to.

New Clause agreed to.

Clause 3 agreed to.


Clause 4 MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): The Bill is amended at Clause 4 appearing at page B.5 by substituting for Clause 4, the following new clause - “Prohibition of undercover operation without warrant.” 4 (1) An investigating officer shall not engage in an undercover operation unless the investigating officer is authorized to do so by an undercover warrant issued under this Part.
(2) A person who engages in an undercover without authorization commits an offence.” MR CHAIRPERSON: Ke ne ke botsa Honourable Minister, gore a go ka twe in an undercover, kana undercover operation.

MR MMUSI: It has to be undercover operation.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ehe, e ne e le Sekgoa?

Order!

The question is that the amendment be agreed to.

MR SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Two points; ya ntlha ke e o setseng o e supile, gore a mme ga e tlhaele sengwe Tona.
“A person who engages in an undercover without authorization.” Ya bobedi ke e; ke bonye mo go tse dingwe gore o leka go dira a deterrence, go leka go tlisa sengwe mo molaong 21 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage se se tlaa dirang gore ba ba filweng dithata ba tshabele kgakala go di dirisa ka tsela e e seng yone e Palamente kana bakwadi ba molao ba neng ba e ikaeletse.
O buile kwa go tse dingwe jaaka kwa misuse of assumed identity.

Jaanong fa ke eng re sa dirise yone thupa ele ya go kgalema gore ope a itse gore ga a letlelelwe, re re yo o tla dirang jalo, a dira “an undercover operation without authorization, commits an offence.” O se ka wa ema foo, o re, “commits an offence, and is liable to a term of imprisonment for life,” fela jaaka e nngwe ele ya identity.

Re se ka ra lesa fa gore gone go tlaa twe offence fela, mme go sa buiwe gore o dirile eng.
Gore mongwe le mongwe yo o diragatsang molao o, a itse gore fa a ka ba a leka gore a itirele go rata le go bona, botshelo jwa gagwe o ya go bo tshelela kwa toronkong, go tlaa rotloetsa gore le ba ba neng ba batla gore ba dirise junior staff go dira dilo tse, se nne le tsetla ya go ikemela ka dinao gore mongwame ke tshaba go ya toronkong botshelo jwa me jotlhe.

Ke proposal e ke e dirang gore a Minister o ka e amogela, fa a e amogela re bo re baakanya.
Ke ne ke sa batle go e sutisa ke ise ke utlwe maikutlo a gagwe.

Ke a leboga.

MR REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Honourable Saleshando o tsere part of kgang e ke neng ke re ke ya go bua ka yone ya 4 (2).
E ke neng ke batla go e tlhaloganya Honourable Minister ke ya gore, fa re dumela gore “the investigating officer shall not engage in an undercover operation unless the investigating officer is authorised to do so by undercover warrant issued under this part,” ga ke na bothata le yone, but kana golo fa we are dealing with dikgang tse di bokete Honourable Minister.

A mme re tlaabo re sa ba bofelele matsogo ka fa morago mo go feteletseng?
Ke eng ba ne ba sa neelwe window ya gore they can act but within 24 hours e bo ba setse jaanong ba tsere warrant ya gore jaanong ba tsweledise tiro ya bone.

Gongwe dinokwane di tsoga di ya go ba tswa ka phatlha tsa menwana, ba santse ba tshwanetse go ya go tla ka warrant.

Ka wena o ntse fa fatshe le didupe tsa gago tsa bomaitseanape, gongwe o e fetise gone foo, tse dingwe tse ke dumalanang le Honourable Saleshando.

I thank you sir.

MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

E ya No.


2, there is a typo mo go yone, gatwe “a person who engages in an undercover operation without authorisation commits an offence” ke yone eo.

Honourable Keorapetse, ke a go utlwa rraetsho, mme kana ga ke agente, mme... MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Saleshando.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Keorapetse ke ofe?

MR MMUSI: Honourable Saleshando, ga ke agente, mme fela gatwe golo mo go kwa the General Offences gotlhe, it has been catered for, so ga o ka ke wa go dira specific.
Ke raya ke gakololwa ke ba e leng diagente, ga ke motho wa molao, mme fela e rile fa le nna ke gakololwa ke bo agente ba nthaya ba re nnyaa, kana golo go kwa the General Offences, so it has been catered for.

MR SALESHANDO: Clarification.


Tlhaloso e ke e kopang ke gore mo dipaakanyong tse o di dirang, o tlaa bona gore fa o baakanyang teng Clause 15 appearing at page B.9 o tsentse gore those who will misuse assumed identity, ga o a re fela wa re they are committing an offence, o tsweletse wa re “and is liable to a term of imprisonment for life,” yone e farologana jang?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister.


MR MMUSI: One of the things tse ba neng ba di bua rraetsho ba ne ba re, it is the gravity of the offense, that is why go na le pharologanyo.

That is why ele e le specific, e e le kwa General Offences.

I hope ke go arabile sir.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le nna o nkarabe foo, ke utlwe gore wa reng.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Vice President (VP).


HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR TSOGWANE): Jaaka Rre Reatile a ntse a bua gore, ya gagwe o kare ga go a arabiwa mo go yone.

E bile ke ne ke batla go gatelela gore o tlile ka ntlha e e botlhokwa, probably e ya go nna le bothata jwa gore kana jaanong le fa go na le dispensation eo, e tshwanetse gore e supafale sentle, ka gore re setse re supile gore fa o sena warrant o bo o dira jalo, o a bo o tlodile molao.
Tota ntlha e a e buang ya gore, kana re lwantsha borukutlhi jo re tshwanetseng ra ema ka dinao ga nna bonako, gongwe within 24 hours oo, o ka nna botlhokwa ka fa Rre Reatile a neng a bua ka teng.

Legale re tlaa utlwa Tona gore o e araba a reng, ka gore o ne a ise a arabe.

Ke a leboga.

MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Honourable Reatile, kana borukutlhi jo re bo lwantshang jo, ga bo tshwane le borukutlhi jwa go utswa mo shopong kana mo go eng, ke borukutlhi jo bo ka feretlhang lefatshe.
Jaanong operation ya teng e a bo e ntse e le telele, e sa 22 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage bolo go nna e diragala.

Re dumela gore the investigating officers ba a bo di na le nakonyana e ntsi gore di ka kgona gore di batle di bo di ye kwa court.

E bile gompieno re a itse gore courts tsa rona di bereka bosigo le motshegare, fa go na le a crisis e e tshwanang le e, they can attend to it.
I thank you Mr Chairperson.

...Silence...

MR MMUSI: A re a utlwana Mr Chairperson?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Yes sir.

I think Honourable Members, as the Minister indicated, there is a typo, the “undercover” should be followed by the word “operation.” Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4 as amended agreed to.

Clause 5 agreed to.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, there is Clause 6.

Clause 6 MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Mr Chairperson, the Bill is amended at page B.6 by inserting immediately after Clause 6, the following new Clause and renumbering subsequent Clauses accordingly - “Protection of Privacy in controlled investigations” 7.

(1) In determining an application for an undercover operation, a court shall consider - MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, you can now deal with the insertion after Clause 6.

New Clause MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr SECURITY Chairperson.
Mr Chairperson, the Bill is amended at page B.6 by inserting immediately after Clause 6, the following new Clause and renumbering subsequent Clauses accordingly - “Protection of Privacy in controlled Investigations 7.1” 7.
(1) In determining an application for an undercover operation, a court shall consider - (a) whether what is sought to be achieved by the warrant could reasonably be achieved by other less intrusive means; (b) whether the level of protection to be applied in relation to any obtaining of information by virtue of the warrant is higher because of the particular sensitivity of that information; and (c) any other aspects of the public interest in the protection of privacy.
(2) The other considerations by the court under Sub-section (1) may include - (a) national security interests; (b) public interest in preventing or detecting serious crime related activity; (c) whether the conduct is authorised is proportionate; or (a) whether what is sought to be achieved by the warrant could reasonably be achieved by other less intrusive means; (d) any other consideration that the court may consider relevant for purposes of this Act.” I so move Mr Chairperson.
(b) whether the level of protection to be applied in relation to any obtaining of information by virtue of the warrant is higher because of the particular... MR CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Minister.

I called you to make a mistake, we are not dealing with Clause 6 as such, but a decision immediately after Clause 6.

So let us dispose of Clause 6 first.

MR MMUSI: Yes sir.

Clause 6 agreed to.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Members, the question is that the amendment be agreed to.
MR KAPINGA: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.

I would want to request the Minister to explain the meaning of the proposed Clause 7 (1) (b).

To me it is a bit mixed up, I do not understand what it is intended to convey.

Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.


1 (b) “whether the level of protection to be applied in relation to any obtaining of information by virtue of the warrant 23 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Committee Stage is higher,” I believe that and as I have always said, I am not a lawyer, but the way I understand this Clause to be saying is that the level of protection to be applied in relation to any obtaining of information by virtue of the warrant is higher.

If obtaining the information, the warrant is higher because of the particular sensitivity of that information and it is because of the sensitivity of that information, so the warrant is higher.

where I understand it.


E bo e re gore go diriwe jalo, go tshwanetse go kopiwe tetla kwa go Tona ka gore go tlaabo go tsena ba ba senang dithata tsa to investigate.

Kana golo fa re rile re batla to introduce judicial oversight jaaka re ntse re dira gore dilo tse dingwe di nne di lebelelwa ke makgotla ka gore ga se tse di neng di solofetswe ke molao, a di a letlelesega.

Jaanong kwa 7.2 ya re Minister ke ene a tlaa fang tetla yone eo.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: ‘Higher’ o raya mo go eng foromane?
MR KAPINGA: Nnyaa, Chairperson o tlaa re thusa, e neele Attorney General, ga ke tlhaloganye.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)...

MR MMUSI: Ke ne ke tsaya gore ba raya gore level of protection ke yone e e kwa godimo fa re bua Setswana.

Legale jaaka ke bua ga ke agente, ga ke ise ke ko ke tsene mo court, ke ithutela fela mo Ministry o wa Defence, ke ithuta molao gone fa.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke ka go supela, ga o ise a bo o seke kana.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Le batla go ntsenya mo thaelong.


I have already asked Legal Counsel whether the new proposed Clause 7 (1) (b) in determining an application for an undercover operation, a court shall consider - (a) whether the level of protection to be applied in relation to any obtaining of information by virtue of the warrant is higher because of the particular sensitivity of that information.
I thought when I read it, it meant that when you make your application to the courts, the courts may actually refuse your application if in the view of the courts, there is no need for you to be asking for that warrant because the sensitivity of the information you require, you obtained without that warrant, so they can refuse.

Amendment agreed to.

New Clause agreed to.

Clause 7 MR SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Thank you Mr Chairperson.
On Clause 7, nte ke e tlhalose pele, e leka go dira dilo tse pedi, kwa 7.1 gore undercover operations di ka diriwa ke two or more investigatory authorities.

That is the first one.

Then kwa number two, e letlelela gore these investigatory authorities di ka dira di tshwaraganetse an operation e e leng gore it involves a non-security agency.

That is Ke kopa go fetola Clause yone e gore go e letlelela to operate go tsewe tetla kwa lekgotleng.
Tota ke yone kopo ya me Mr Chairperson, I move that the Bill be amended at Clause 7 (2) on Page B.6 by substituting the word ‘Minister’ with the word ‘court’.

I move accordingly.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Members, I think the proposed amendment is simple enough for us not to worry about the Standing Orders which require that the Honourable Member should submit a written proposal.

All he wants is that he substitutes for ‘Minister’ with ‘court’.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure.


MR REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, ke dumela gore Tshutiso ya ga Honourable Saleshando e maleba ka mabaka a gore Tona o dirile amendments tse a tlileng ka tsone, tse ke dumelang gore ke dumalana le tsone.

O mo lepotlapotleng ka nako e khutshwane, as he noticed molao o, a o tlisitse under certificate of urgency.

Fa a ne a na le nako, ke dikgang tse a ka bong a lebeletse (reflected on) mo go tsone.
Ga ke bone gore go na le lenaneo lepe le le sokameng le a neng a le dira.

Minister can authorise ka mabaka a gore go he should clean submission ya gagwe yotlhe, e bong this Bill.

Ke dumela gore ke go bontshiwa fela gore mme fa, go na le omission Minister.

A re ntsheng Minister re tsenye court e o setseng o e tlhomamisitse gore e tlaa simolola e le yone e go iwang fa pele ga yone, go ya go tsewa assumed identity le dikgang tse dintsintsi fela.
A go nne gone jalo Minister gore o tsene kwa dilong tse o begang, tse tsa operations o seyo mo go tsone since o le lepolotiki motlotlegi.

I submit Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Morwaeng, your procedure.

…Silence… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Morwaeng, a re feteng.

24 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Committee Stage MR RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): Mr Chairperson, ke ema nokeng Tshutiso e e dirwang ke Leader of the Opposition (LOO) ka mabaka a gore the intention of the piece of legislation e re akanyang go e dira, ke gore go iwe kwa makgotleng a ditsheko jaaka Minister a buile.

Ke tsaya gore it was an error fela e e ka baakangwang.

Gongwe re ka neela Tona go bona gore kgakololo e a e neelwang e, o e bona e ntse jang.

Ke tsaya gore ga e na bana ba phefo Mr Chairperson.
Re e baakanye ka gore ke ene a re tletseng gore go tsenngwe Kgotla, jaanong go bo go diragala phoso go tsenngwa Minister.

I therefore support Honourable LOO.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Members, before… HONOURABLE MEMBER: My hand is up Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I saw your hand Vice President (VP) but I want you for something else.

I am looking at my clock and it says now it is about 19 minutes to 12.
I had thought by now we will get a fair indication of whether we are likely to finish this Bill by 12:30; I have great doubts.

The reason I want you Leader of the House, is to try and take steps that will ensure that we finish with this Bill today.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Then why do we not adjourn for lunch and reconvene at 2:00 p.m.?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nako ya lunch ga e ise e tšhaye.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Kana le etla le robala go ntse go tsweletswe, that is why le sa lape.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Speaker o santse a bua, hei!

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O raya LOO jalo?

MR CHAIRPERSON: You know what Honourable Members, to avoid the…(Inaudible)… of hours, His Honour may want to consider whether his Motion should not really be to extend the sitting of the House today until all the stages of this Bill are done, so that we have lunch in between.

It is really internal management.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O e tshwere Mr Speaker, re fa go tla go bereka.
MR TSOGWANE: O e tshwere sentle Mr Speaker le fa Standing Order sone se sa letle gore Motion wa me o baakanngwe ka Clause e e mo Standing Order seo.

I thank you Mr Speaker.

BUSINESS MOTION HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Thank you Mr Speaker.
In the interest of what you are saying and in the interest of having to conclude this Bill today, Mr Speaker, if you allow, I will move in terms of Standing Order 27 (1) (c), which I would like to invoke to extend today’s business by at least three hours.

I thank you Mr Speaker.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

Honourable Members… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Dira four hours.

MR CHAIRPERSON: …(Laughter!

)… the question is that… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Wa re four, kana… MR CHAIRPERSON: …the Motion be agreed to.
MR CHAIRPERSON: That is okay VP; that is okay Leader of the House.

The question Honourable Members is that we extend the sitting of this House until you have disposed of all the stages of the present Bill.

Question put and agreed to.


MR CHAIRPERSON: What we want to do Honourable Saleshando, because we normally on Friday adjourn at 12:30 p.m., will be to adjust and ask the Clerk to provide you with lunch so that we can move a little closer to 1:00 and then adjourn for that lunch if need be, come back at 2:00 p.m. and finish up.

MR SALESHANDO: That is fine sir.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ee rra.

MR TSOGWANE: Ke a dumela mme go na le bothatanyana, ke ka feta ka jone?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ee, ka rialo.


MR CHAIRPERSON: Ee rra.

MR TSOGWANE: No, I am amenable to four hours Mr Speaker because it does not do any harm if we finish within an hour or so.

MR TSOGWANE: Ke kwa Orapa, ga ke itse gore ke tlile to access lunch jang, kana ke ka tsaya receipt fela ka tla ka e supa ka Mosupologo?

25 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Committee Stage MR CHAIRPERSON: VP, go and see the General Manager o re Speaker a re o fiwe lunch.

E tlaa re fa ke ya morakeng ke tlaa tla ke mo duela.

Honourable Members, there is an amendment moved by Honourable Saleshando concerning the word “Minister” and he wants that to be deleted and insert the word “court.” Now, Honourable Mmusi... HONOURABLE MEMBER: My hand was up Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Indeed, Honourable Leader of the House.
HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR TSOGWANE): Nnyaa, ke gore Minister le ene go raya gore o nnile bonyanyana, nkabo re sa mo tsena ganong.

Ke ne ke re ke utlwa amendment, mme ga ke batle go e ema nokeng kana go sa e ema nokeng go fitlhelela Minister, tota my intention was gore Minister a ...(Inaudible)…ka gore ke tsaya ke re e ne e se phoso jaaka bangwe ba tsaya gore ke phoso, fa a ne a tsenya gore Minister a dire.
E bile Rre Reatile o kile a supa kgantele a re gone ga warrants tsa gore nako le nako even ka nako e khutshwane go iwa kwa court, gongwe go nne le window ya 24 hours, mme gongwe gone moo, bofefo jo re bo tlhokang fa, courts kana le tsone ga se gore re tlaa nna re fitlhela di sena tiro nako le nako.

Jaanong ke sa itse gore gone fa ga re ipofe thata.

Legale Minister o tlaa re guide.

With those few remarks, re tlaabo re reeditse Minister fa go tla kwa voting gore ene a reng.
MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Mr Chairperson, kana tota kgang e ya joint undercover operations, the reason why gotwe Minister ke ene a authorise, ke gore kana let us say mapodise le masole go into a joint operation, a jaanong ga re ka ke ra re ba ye kwa court, Minister ke ene a ba okametseng, that is why Clause e re Minister ke ene a authorise, in the very simple term, that is how it is sir.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation.

authorities ka botsone.


Ga e tlhoke permission ya gago le ya court, it is given, ga go tlhoke to authorise sepe.

E bo e tswelela kwa go 7.2, wena o ne o bua ka 7.1 gone jaana, eo e teng, ga o tlhoke to authorise, it is given, but ke bua ka 7.2 e jaanong yone e reng, an investigatory authority jaaka bone masole kana mapodise, e e tlaabong e dira an undercover operation, under Section 1 di e tshwaraganetse, mme e na le keletso ya go tsenya a non- law enforcement entity.
Jaanong kamoso gongwe o batla go tsenya bangwe ba e leng gore ga se batlhotlhomisi mo teng, kana o batla go tsenya babereki ba Choppies mo operation, o belaela gore ...(Interruptions)… di tlaabo di tsene mo shopong ya Choppies, gore ba... MR MMUSI: E tlaabo e le gore ke bodirelapuso like Ministry wa Agriculture kana wa eng jalo.

Kana ke go boleletse jalo sir.


MR SALESHANDO: Jaanong ke sone se re reng gone foo because se se tlaabong se diragala ke gore a non- law enforcement entity, lekgotla le le sa direlwang go dira ditlhotlhomiso, ra re le lone le nne part of a special operation.

Ke gone fela foo fa re reng go iwe court teng ka gore ga se selo se se diragalang kgapetsakgapetsa.

Ke selo se re tsayang gore se diragala once in a blue moon.
Fa go diragala jalo, fela jaaka tse dingwe, a makgotla e nne one a a reng, nnyaa, mme jaanong re a letlelela gore batho ba ba senang dithata tseo re ba di fe re le lekgotla, re sena go reetsa se le tlaabong le se bua.

Ke a leboga.

MR MMUSI: Nnyaa, ke raya gore tota kana maphata a, re tlaabo re dirisa maphata a Puso, go na le resources tsa Puso tse Minister a di okametseng, tse di tlaabong di dirisiwa mo operations, so, ga re ka ke ra ya kwa court go ya go kopa gore go kopiwe resources tsa Puso.
Minister ke ene a okametseng lephata le, mme fa e le gore re ya go tsaya Lephata la Agriculture le tla go bereka le lone mo project, e tlaabo e le gore go akantswe gore Minister ke ene a ka authorise, e seng court.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: So, a re ka tsenya gore golo fa re raya e le lephata le lengwe la Puso?

MR MMUSI: It is a governance structure e e teng.

MR MMUSI: Ee, maybe as... HONOURABLE MEMBER: E ya re non-law enforcement.
MR SALESHANDO: Tlhaloso e ke neng ke batla go e fa Minister ke gore, 7.1, e bua gore an undercover operation can be conducted jointly ke mekgatlho e le mebedi kana go feta e e leng gore ke investigatory HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable Chair... MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Members, as the …(Inaudible)… stands, where it refers to “non-law enforcement entity”, it could be any entity, it does not have to be a Government Department.

Ke ne ke re Minister fa gongwe a utlwe what the argument is.
26 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage MR RAMOGAPI: Mr Chairperson, ke ne ke re kana ka fa go ntseng ka teng, re leka go thusa Minister mme kana le ene o na le lephata.

Kana melao e e dirwang ka sepiti e, ke ne ke etla ke akanya gore gongwe go batla dilo tse dingwe kana ka gore re dira ka lepotlapotla, a e tla a consult legal advisor kana team ya gagwe gore e mo direle sentle.
Ke leka go bua se fela ka gore fa re lebelela spirit se Honourable Saleshando a tlang ka sone gore re baakanye, tota ga ke bone bape ba ka gana this advice, gongwe e batla gore re ba fe nako ba bone gore golo fa re bua ka eng, ka gore ke tsaya gore re a tlhaloganya gore e tla ka sepiti jang, Tona le ene a bo a re a tsene ka sepiti.
Kana in normal circumstance go a ne gotwe later date, jaanong e, e le go leka go thusa fela gore fa go kgonagala re e tle re ba fa sebaka, mme ke tsaya gore tota e tlhamaletse fela Honourable Minister.

MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR MOLAO): Ke a go leboga Mr Chairperson.
Tota fela ka gore gongwe ga re e lebe go tshwana, I was understanding it from the perspective ya ga Minister to apply kwa go ene to seek authority fa e le gore go tlhokega gore any non-law enforcement entity e ka itshwaraganya le bone ba ba setseng ba builwe gore ke investigating authorities.
Ka gore jaanong fa e le gore e ka nna a governance structure or administrative structure se Minister a ka se dirisang, ga ke itse gore the mischief ya teng e ka tswa e bonala fa kae, e e ka tlhokang gore gongwe go ye to appear kwa court to say re bona gore bosemangmang ba ka re thusa in this activity ya to investigate and prevent crime e e ka tswang e diragala.

Fa e le gore Minister o ka approve golo mo.


Ke ne ke e lebelela fela from that perspective gore it is governance or administrative structure se Minister a ka nnang answerable to it gore nnyaa, mme le ka involve bosemangmang ba le tlang le propose gore ba ka tsenngwa.

I do not know gore e tlaabo e kgopa fa kae fela from the reading of a... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.
MR MOLAO: Why Minister kgantele a ne a bua a re, kana golo fa it will be administrative, e re ntswa a file sekai sa mapodise le masole fa gongwe ba dira joint operations, mme being authorised by Minister fa ba patrol mekgwatha, ba reng, ga go tlhokege, go sa tlhoke gore gotwe e tiro ga se ya bosemangmang, e ga se ya bosemangmang, e le Minister a re dira, a bo a ka e emisa ka nako e a ka e emisang ka yone.

I thought we should look at it in that spirit.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Your time is up.


MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR KGAFELA): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

Ke re ke leke go thusa.

Minister o tlaa intshwarela, dilo tse fa re ntse re di bala, ke gone go senogang fa nako e ntse e tsamaya, mme fela fa ke utlwa Rre Saleshando ka mo a buang ka teng, fa re ka lebelela Clause 5 (3) (b) ke yone e e laelang gore warrant e tshwanetse ya dira eng.
E tshwanetse to specify batho ba ba tshwanetseng ba tsaya karolo mo undercover operation e. Jaanong ga e ka ke ya re when the warrant has specified batho, e bo e le gore ba bangwe ba a tsenngwa, bone ba tsenngwa ka tetla ya ga Minister.

Bothata bo teng foo, gore Minister o tlile go nna le bothata jwa gore e re batho ba seyo on the warrant, e bo e le gore jaanong o a ba tsenya mo teng gore ba nna karolo ya ditlhotlhomiso.
I think the best thing to do Mr Chairperson ke gore, this Clause 7 (2) ga e tlhokafale gotlhelele, ka gore kana fa go batliwa motlhotlhomisi gore a tsene in the covert operations, the starting point ke Clause 5 (3) (b) e o tlaa bonang warrant ka yone.

Mo go rayang gore jaanong tota fela it deals away with Clause 7 (2).
Unless e le gore gongwe maikaelelo e ne e le dikgang tsa procurement, gore fa gongwe go batliwa to procure the services tsa batho ba sele e se ba Puso, e bo e le gore ga ba fete ka the normal procurement process.

Minister a ba supa fela ka monwana, e bo e le gore ba a hirwa.

Fa e le gore it is for that purpose, then I would understand, but even then language ya teng will have to be re-crafted, to remove parts that they suggest gore an undercover operation will have already undertaken.
It must be couched to show that it is a proposed undertaking, not one already undertaken.

That is, if it is for procurement processes.

Otherwise, those are my respectful submissions Mr Chairperson gore, the two Clauses are mutually destructive of each other and I think we must yield to Clause 5 (3) (b), it should take precedence.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Fa a santse a letlelela nako foo… MR CHAIRPERSON: His time is up!
MR REATILE: Mr Chairperson, ke ne ke dumela gore if we can polish Clause 7 (2), maybe fa go ‘entity’ ra tsenya ‘department’ or ‘personnel’ ga ke itse, e tlaabo e kgona go dumela ka gore fa re ya kwa go 5 (3) (c) (ii) Honourable Kgafela, fa e bua ka use of informants, ke dumela gore jaanong re tlaabo re lekile go ya to cover it gone fale, re dumela gore the informants, ga se batho 27 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Committee Stage ba e leng gore ke ba law enforcement.

Jaanong fa re lekile to broaden it jaaka a dumela gore e tlaabo e le tsa maphata.

Ke dumela gore fa re bua ka law enforcement entity, go na le batho ba re santseng re ka ya go ba tsaya e le babegadikgang, e bo e le gore re itse gore ba ya kwa world cup, mme go na le tsa ba di etseng.
Ba tsamaya ka tag eo ya bone ya bo media, mme e le gore lekgotla has authorised them gore ba ye go tsweledisa mission, e re nako ya world cup e boa kana whatever mission o ba tlaabong ba o etse, e bo e le gore jaanong we have collected enough data e e leng gore surveillance ya rona e berekile.

Jaanong fa re boa and confine ourselves gore ke bodirelapuso fela, e-e, go raya gore ga re itse, re tlhoafalele go lwantsha bokebekwa jo bo tlhasetseng lefatshe Honourable Mmusi.

I thank you.
I thank you.

MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): On a point of clarification.

Kana tota fa re bua gore Minister will be authorising the undercover operation, but go ya go kopa warrant, e ya go kopiwa operation e ntse e simologile.

Kana the reason why the Minister authorises the undercover operation ke gore, the resources di tswa mo go ene tse di yang go dirisiwa.

So he is accountable at all times.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga di tswe mo go wena Minister, ga di tswe mo go wena.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: O a e tlhakatlhakanya jaanong Mohurutshe.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O a e tlhakatlhakanya.

Ga di tswe mo go wena.

MR MMUSI: Gongwe re ne re ka e beela fa thoko, re tlaa tla re e boela kwa morago.

So that I consult.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Fa re feta re fetile Kgabo.

MR KAPINGA (OKAVANGO): Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief.

I think Honourable Kgafela has finished the argument gore, all people that engage in an operation are stipulated in the warrant, jaaka a nopotse 5 (3) (b).
So all the persons that get involved in an undercover operation are stipulated in a warrant issued by the court.

So ga go na Minister fa a tsenang teng Mr Chairperson.

Thank you.

MR TSOGWANE: Ke a utlwa Mr Chairperson le argument ya ga Rre Kgafela.

Kana we must weigh his argument against what the Minister is saying gore, kana fa o tla o kopa warrant, e a bo e le legato le lengwe, le go tlileng go tswelelwa ka ditlhotlhomiso.
The warrant is for a specific purpose, mme go ka tswelelwa gongwe ka tsela e a batlang go tlhotlhomisa ka yone, mme a batla bangwe gore ba bo ba le teng, mo teng, pele ga warrant e kopiwa ya gore jaanong go ye go reediwa, go ye to intercept.

Jaanong gone foo ke bona e le gore Minister a fiwe sebaka, a e akanye sentle, ka gore he is right.
Gongwe fa re ka e tsaya ka semolao gore warrant has already prescribed batho, it is not always the case, jaaka a bua a re fa re tla re goroga fa warrant e tlhokafalang teng, re a bo re ntse re tsweletse ka ditlhotlhomiso dingwe tse di rileng.

We must be careful of what we are doing, otherwise re ya go ipofa diatla, e bo e le gore fa gongwe re ne re tshwanetse gore re thusiwe ke bangwe ka ditlhotlhomiso before the warrant is required, because there is a point where you will require a warrant.
I thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MMUSI: Mr Chairperson, ke dumalana le His Honour fa o ntetla mongwame, ka gore golo mo as I say, kana investigations tse, ga se tsa fa o utswile dipodi tsa motho kana eng.

These are very detailed and entailed investigations, tse di buiwang fano.

Jaanong go tlaa simolola go nna le ditiro tse dingwe kwa tlase, mme letsatsi le go tlaabong go nna le gore go iwe to deploy motho a direlwe bo Omang, kana go simolola go reetsa mo phone ya gagwe, ke gone fa go yang go kopiwa.
Motho yoo o a bo a sa bolo go nna a salwa morago, bangwe tipped, ba simolola to build a case, which they are going to take to court to go and ask for the warrant.

I thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: The question Minister was, your understanding of Clause 7 (2), is it that, that Clause applies before a warrant under Clause 5 is sought?

MR MMUSI: That is my understanding Mr Chairperson.

You are very right.
You are very right.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Kgafela was then saying, if that is the understanding, you need probably to tinker with 7 (2) to pin that out.
Of course the moot question is gone fa e le gore bana ba gago ba ba tlaabong ba nkgankga around ba batla involvement of other people, why would they have to come to you?…(Inaudible)…e tsamaelwa mo ke maCriminal Investigation Department (CID), ke eng, ba bona o kare mathakanyana a o kare ga ba a re ema sentle, mma re bue le mothakanyana wa rona re nwa mmogo shake- shake ka weekends, re utlwe gore ene o bona eng ka koo.

You are going into operations.


28 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Laughter!

)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Minister, o batla go nna leDIS.

MR CHAIRPERSON: …(Laughter!

)…Nnyaa Honourable Members, try to see how the Honourable Minister is…(Inaudible)… ene o akanya ka nako e e leng gore ga go ise go iwe kwa court go ya go batla warrant.
Let us debate this Clause with that understanding go bona gore a mme has it covered the Minister clearly, is there anything that should be done to bring that out clearly because the Minister is just clear gore o akanya gore Clause e bo e le ka nako efe.

MR SALESHANDO: But can they do that Mr Chairperson, undertake a joint undercover operation because that is what Clause 7 is talking about, undertaking a joint undercover operation with non- investigatory bodies?
Can they do that before they get the warrant, because if they do that before they get the warrant, then they are violating Clause 5, which says you cannot do that before you get a warrant?

MR CHAIRPERSON: If you understand what the Minister is thinking of, and reflect on what Honourable Kgafela was then proposing gore gongwe, bearing in mind what the Minister wants, is it possible to re-couch 7 (ii) to cover the Minister?
If in fact it is not possible because there is another provision, we should bar you from doing that, then we should debate that part.

MR KAPINGA: Kana tota Minister does not have any role to play in operational investigations.

He just wants go ipulela phatlhanyana ya go tsenya letsogo but he does not have any role.

The role he is contemplating is the responsibility of the Commissioner of Police and not him.
When it comes to undercover operations, we have agreed that those shall be authorised by the court.

Ene as a politician, he has no role to play in the investigations.

Ga a tshwanela gore a itshukunyetse mo teng when he does not have any legal role to play.

A re phimoleng fela this provision re sale ka 5, ga a na role e a e tshamekang Mr Chairperson.

MR MMUSI: Mr Chairperson, ga ke dumalane le Honourable Kapinga.
HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… kana batho bao ba tshwanetse ba tle ba fe bosupi gape kwa lekgotleng ba ba neng ba ile covert operation.

Ke ipotsa gore Minister fa a batla go itsenya mo teng, a le ene fa a tswa fa o ya go fa bosupi ka covert operation eo ka gore o tsentse batho foo ba e leng gore ga ba mo lekgotleng?

Ke dumalana fela gore it is irrelevant yone Clause e Mr Chairperson.

I think we should move ahead and delete it.

Thank you.
Thank you.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Tshere, there was nothing procedural about what you were saying, our procedures are quite right.

MR MMUSI: Mr Chairperson, ke dumela gore jaaka ke bua, Minister oversees and he is responsible and that is why he has to account le fa go santse go tsenwa mo teng mo.

Do not look at me as the politician, look at me as an executive of the Government.

I think that is the difference where Kapinga a tsietsegang teng.
Ene fa a nteba o lebeletse Domkrag, no, lebelela gore I am an executive of the Government and therefore, I am accountable.

MR RAMOGAPI: Mr Chairperson, ke ne ke re ke leke go thusa gore nna ka fa ke tlhaloganyang Honourable Mmusi ka teng, le ka fa ke balang Clause e ka teng, ke bona o kare go raya gore tota yone ga e a kwalega sentle ka gore tota warrant e tsewa kwa court.
Jaanong se Honourable Mmusi a neng a se batla ke gore before warrant e ntshiwa, go raya gore fa a batla to engage another person yo e leng gore he is non-enforcement person, e bo e le gore jaanong o kgona go mo tsenya mo teng.

Jaanong mme fa e le gore go ntse jalo, e tshwanetse gore e balege e re, “before the application of the warrant.” Go raya gore Minister o tshwanetse gore e bo e le gore he has approved it fa e le gore ke tlhaloganya sentle.
MR MMUSI: Ke dumalana le wena foo Ramogapi, eo ya gago ke a e endorse.

MR RAMOGAPI: Ee.

E ne e tshwanetse gore e wele jalo ka fa ke e utlwang ka teng ka gore ene o lebeletse gore budget and everything …(Interruptions)… jaanong go raya gore e bo e le gore Minister… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... MR TSHERE: Procedure.

Thank you Mr Chairperson.

le Ke ne ke Honourable Kapinga gore kana dithata tse di tsewa kwa lekgotleng.
Jaanong gore di tsewe kwa lekgotleng jaana, tlhaloganya Honourable Kgafela HONOURABLE Honourable Ramogapi.

MEMBER: Clarification HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is not holding the floor.

29 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage HONOURABLE MEMBER: A ntse a bua?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, PS ga se Minister.

MR CHAIRPERSON: He is not the one holding the floor.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: The buck stops with the Minister.
MR RAMOGAPI: Re tshwanetse re bone gore mme tota yone re ka e bopa jang.

Kana kgang e e tona batho betsho ke lefatshe.

Ke tsaya gore …(Interruptions)… mme rotlhe batho ba bararo ba re wela mo kgannyeng e le nngwefela gore mme the spirit of this legislation ka fa re batlang e dirwa ka teng ke gore go iwe kwa court pele.
Tona fa e le gore re a mo tsenya, o ka tsenngwa before, e seng after… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Ramogapi, before going for a warrant kwa court, what will stop the Minister agreeing with the Commissioner or whoever that, “nnyaa, mathakanyana ale a kwa Mogoditshane a ko le ba atumele le bone gore ga ba ka ke ba thusa?” What will stop the Minister doing that a bereka le mapodise a gagwe le ba security ba bangwe?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga go na sepe se se mo emisang.


MR CHAIRPERSON: …(Inaudible)... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga o tlhoke molao.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Go tsenya Minister ke mathata tota gone.

MR MMUSI: Nnyaa, lona kana …(Inaudible)… ke Domkrag, jaanong a re leseng go lebelela Domkrag re lwele… MR CHAIRPERSON: Unless the Minister thought he could be sued but it does not help that you put him in danger, o tlaabo a na le thata ya gore ba tsenyeng.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: But he is not the Accounting Officer.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes, Accounting Officer ke Permanent Secretary (PS).

MR CHAIRPERSON: I thought that question to us is …(Interruptions)… now fa ba batla gore ba ba nkgankgang ba bue le Minister gore hey, kana … (Interruptions)… re ka dira jaana kana jaana, ke eng se se kganelang gore ba dire jalo?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ke eng se se mo kganelang gone jaana gore a bue le bana ba gagwe gore mo case e le reng e ka re e teng, ke eng le sa tseye bosemangmang le bosemangmang?

Ke eng se se mo kganelang?


HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga go na, e bile ba a mo brief.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga go na what covers him from a gazetting point of view.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of view?

Re ne re bua fela moo.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR CHAIRPERSON: …(Inaudible)... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le mo forola eng?

MR REATILE: Ke ne ke re kana Mr Chairperson, the Minister o setse a tlisitse fa a supa gore gongwe o setse a lebetse gore o ne a reng.
O ne a re non-law enforcement entity; tota he is referring mo the Government employees.

However, fa o bua ka non-law enforcement entity, e broad, ga e a tswalelwa mo teng ga Puso, le batho ba e leng gore ba kwa Mauritius fela e ba buletse.

O santse o ka ya go tsaya G4S, Debswana, wa tsaya Railways.

Gongwe a tlhalose yone eo gore a o santse a tsweletse a ema ka lefoko la gore non-law enforcement entity o ntse o refer mo bodirelapusong, kana e tona ka gore re lwantsha borukutlhi jo bo matswakabele?
Ka gore go na le kompone ya maranyane, e ba dirang ka Information Technology (IT), e le gore fa o pikile motho wa bone a tsena gone fa, re itse gore jaanong tseo tsa matswakabele re tlaa di fitlhelela.

Jaanong a ko o tlhalose gore a o ntse wa re o tswalela mongwe le mongwe kwa ntle o batla gore o sale fela ka bodirelapuso?

MR MMUSI: Nnyaa rra, ga ke tswalele mongwe le mongwe kwa ntle.

Ke ne ke go fa an example.


Ke batla go boa gape ke go araba gore kana tota Minister gompieno ke ene a emeng mo Palamenteng.

Ga o ka ke wa bitsa PS gore a tle go tlisa molao fa.

Minister ke ene a leng answerable to Parliament.

Sengwe le sengwe Minister is answerable.

Jaanong ke sone se o bonang re tsentse Minister fa.

MR MMUSI: Mr Chairperson, ke ne ke kopa go tlatsa fa gore kana fa o re the PS, o raya ene Minister.
Ke raya gore go change o tsenya PS kana Minister… MR MOLAO: Ga ke itse gore re tlaa tswa jang fa Mr Chairperson.

Kana ke ne ke dumela gore kgantele o boditse gore se se kganelang Tona gore e kare ba 30 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Committee Stage botlhotlhomisi ba tla kwa go ene ba re go na le bangwe gongwe ba ba ka re thusang, a bo a re ee tswelelang le dire le bone, a bo ba ka thusa go rarabolola gongwe kgang e e lebilweng.
Gongwe letshogo lame le nna, gongwe le Tona le ene a nang le lone, gone gore mme fa ba sena go nna ba thusa bone batho bao, a ba reile a re nnyaa, tswelelang le bereke le bone, fa go setse gongwe go tlhokega gore go iwe Kgotlatshekelo go ye go sekwa, gongwe jaanong ba bitswe ba tle ba fe masupi, a ga go na go tlhaga kgang fa e le gore mo molaong the Minister has not covered gore he authorizes.
Ga go na go nna le bothata jwa masupi gotwe nnyaa, mme ba go ne go le illegal gore ba tsene batle ba le thuse, tetla le ne le e filwe ke mang under molao ofe, o o kwadilweng fa kae?

Ke leka go e akanya along those lines gore mme ene Tona o tlaabo a sireleditswe ke eng to authorize batho bao?

I MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Members, thought Honourable Mmusi o le utlwile.

Maybe what you should do is to give him a little time to consult bana ba gagwe and we deal with the other Clauses.
We will come back to it.

The Standing Orders allows that, gore ka fa thoko ka fa a ko a ba kope gore fa ba ne ba reeditse le bone, a ga ba ka ke ba thusa probably to put into a draft form the Minister’s thinking gore fa a tla a bo a re nnyaa, kana fa ke ntse ke bua jaana ke ne ke raya gore gongwe Clause e e ka bewa jaana ka gore se ke se batlang nna ke se, le se, le se.

Re mo feng nako, o le utlwile.

The way you have been arguing, it does not show that we are going to be too progressive.
Honourable Mmusi, probably take advantage of that.

MR MMUSI: Raya Honourable Saleshando a withdraw Mr Chairperson, re fete ka molao.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Nnyaa.

MR SALESHANDO: Ga go thuse to withdraw.

You will still have a problem between this Section le Clause 5.

MR CHAIRPERSON: That is why Honourable Minister I want you and your officers to reflect.

MR MMUSI: Okay, Mr Chairperson, we will do that.

MR CHAIRPERSON: So that we can now proceed with Clause 8.
Clause 8 MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): The Bill is amended at Clause 8 appearing at page B.6 by substituting for Sub- clause (2), the following new sub-clauses “(2) An assumed identity application under Sub-section (1) shall - (a) be an ex parte application; (b) be in a sealed envelope marked classified; and (c) contain - (i) the name of the applicant, (ii) where the application is not made by the applicant, the name of the person to be authorised to acquire an assumed identity, (iii) if the authorised person is not a law enforcement officer, the name and position of an investigating officer to be appointed as a supervisor of the authorised person during an undercover operation, (iv) the reason for the assumed identity, (v) details of the investigation or intelligence gathering exercise in respect of which the assumed identity will be used, and (vi) details of the investigatory authority and the type of evidence to be gathered.
(3) The Registrar shall when presented with an application under Subsection (1) for registration, inform the Chief Justice or any person for the time being acting in the Chief Justice’s stead, of this fact before allocation, to enable the Chief Justice to determine which Judge should be nominated by the Chief Justice in terms of Section 6 of the High Court Act.
(4) If, in proceedings before a court, the identity of a person in respect of whom an authority is, or was in force, is in issue or may be disclosed, the court shall unless it considers that the interests of public otherwise require - (a) ensure that such parts of the proceedings as relate to the identity of the person are held in private; and (b) make such orders as to the suppression of evidence given before it as will ensure that the identity of the person is not disclosed.
(5) The court may, for purposes of Subsection (1) - (a) allow a person in respect of whom an authority is, or was in force, to appear before it under the assumed name or under a code name or code number; and 31 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Committee Stage including (b) make orders prohibiting the publication of any information, from evidence given before it, that identifies, or might facilitate the identification of any person who has been, or is proposed to be, called to give evidence.” information derived Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, I beg to amend the word “private” appearing in Sub-clause 4 with the word “camera.” I so move Mr Speaker.
SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Mr MR Chairperson, gongwe e tlaa re Tona a kopa ditlhaloso ka e re neng re tswa mo go yone, le e a e tsenye.

Ke na le mathata fela le fa ke se motho wa semolao le fa re ya go tsena fa go (3), fa gotweng, “The Registrar shall when presented with an application under Subsection (1) for registration”.

Go tswa fela fa go registration mo gotweng “inform the Chief Justice” gore a ye go batla Judge e ene a batlang e reetsa kgang eo.
Kutlwisiso ya me ke gore, re dule mo tsamaisong e go nnang gotwe kgang e go a itlhophelwa gore e batla e reediwa ke mang, ka gore Judges tsa High Court di a lekana.

Go rileng gore gotwe fa go sena go kwadisiwa, Registrar o tlaa dira tsamaiso e e tlwaelegileng, ya the computerised system gore e tlhophe Judge yo o ka tsayang kgang eo.
Nako le nako fa dikgang tse di tshwanetse gotwe go itlhophelwa Judges, ke bosheng fela jaana le ba Law Society ba ne ba bua gore, a le batla re boela kwa tsamaisong ya Sekgoa sa forum shopping gore batho ba nna ba leka gore “e kgang e batla Judge semangmang e seng semangmang” Judges tsa High Court ke tsaya gore di a lekana ka boikarabelo, Chief Justice fela ke gore ene o tla a tsamaisa lephata, mme ke batla go utlwa kutlwisiso ya gore le tshaba eng fa system e tlhopile Judge, go tlaabo go sa siama?
Ke eng le batla gore e nne yo o supilweng ka monwana?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Ambassador Kapinga.

MR KAPINGA (OKAVANGO): Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.

Honourable Leader of the Opposition has said most of what I would wanted to say.
Se ke ka se tlatsang fela ke gore, I would agree with this provision fa e ka bo e le gore High Court is divided into divisions, e bo these applications are taken and sent to a criminal division of the High Court instead of being handled ke every Judge of the High Court.
But now in the situation where we are, where any Judge can handle any matter, it is inappropriate gore go bo gotwe Chief Justice e nne ene a itlhophelang gore ke mang yo o ka reetsang kgang ya 32 gore, ka gore go rotloetsa kgang e e ngongoregelwang e e buiwang ke Leader of the Opposition (LOO) ya forum shopping Mr Chairperson.

That is what I wanted to raise.

Thank you.

MR RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson, tota ...(Inaudible)... re bua selo sele sengwe fela.
Ke tsaya gore gongwe go ka tswa go bakilwe ke gore gongwe e rile fa ba kwala molao, ba bo ba lebeletse kgang ya bogologolo ya gore Chief Justice o ka kgona go itlhophela gore go reetse mang.

Malatsi a gompieno tota kgang e tona ke gone gore kana go dirilwe computers tse di tlhophang gore nnyaa, o ye go kwa go mang.
A re bona gore system eo, e tshwanelwa ke gore e dirwe, kana Judge mongwe le mongwe yo e tlaa re fa go kwadisiwa... kana fa o kwadisa kgang gompieno, the computer picks gore e tlaa reediwa ke mang.

Gona le gore e bo jaanong go tlaa tlhophiwa kana it is set gore tsa ba di tlaa rediwa ke ba.

Golo moo ga go a siamela puso ya batho ka batho Mr Chairperson.

E khutshwanyane fela, ga se e e batlang gore re e tseye ka boleele.
Re a itse gore Section e ba e nopotseng e, gantsi e bereka fa e le gore malatsi a gompieno Chief Justice o batla jaanong batho ba nna bararo, go reetsa kgang eo.

Ke gone fa a tlaabong a tsenya ba bangwe gape.

Jaaka Honourable Saleshando a bua, a re fefoseng dikgang, computer e ntshe motho a bo a tsena mo kgannyeng.

Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

MR BOKO (MAHALAPYE EAST): Mr Chairperson, ke ne ke ka se ka ka bua botoka go gaisa ba ba setseng ba buile, ke dumela gore ba a sobokile.
Ke sale ke tsholeditse, but ba buile fa pele ga me go se molato, ba buile se ke neng ke batla go se bua Mr Chairperson.

Unless the Minister a re tlhalosetsa gore what is the rationale for this provision?

Re leka go fema dikgang tse kgantele go tlaabong gotwe Moatlhodimogolo o itlhophela Judges tse a itseng gore di tlaa dumalana le se Puso e se batlang.

A re mo roleng mokgweleo oo, a re lekeng go mo sireletsa, re o mo ntsheng mo dikgannyeng tse di ka tlogang tsa senya leina la Judiciary le la gagwe tota.
Let the system e nne yone e tlhophang, like you are filing files here in Gaborone, the system will either pick a Judge from Gaborone or Lobatse.

If you are filing in Francistown of course it will pick that Judge in Francistown, if you are doing it in Maun it will pick a Judge in Maun.

A re se ka ra batla go kgotlhela our Judiciary ka tsela e e ntseng jalo.

Let the system do the job jaaka e ne e ntse e dira Mr Chairperson, re ntsheng Motlotlegi Moatlhodimogolo mo dikgannyeng tse.
Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage Unless go na le lebaka le le tona le Tona a tlaa tlang a le tlhalosa gore, ke eng a akanya gore nnyaa tse fela tsone di tshwanetse gore di nne mo matsogong a ga Moatlhodimogolo.

Ke tsaya gore ga se kgang e e ka re latsang fa, le ene ke a bona gore o tlaa dumalana le rona gore re tswelele mo go tse dingwe Mr Chairperson.

Ke a leboga.
Ke a leboga.

DR DOW (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Ke ntse ke reeditse dikakgelo tse di buang ka responsibility... (Inaudible)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Dr Dow!

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O a bua mme ga re mo utlwe.

DR DOW: Ga le nkutlwe?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga re go utlwe madam.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are too distant.

DR DOW: Let me try again.

Thank you Mr Chairperson, ke ntse reeditse bakaulengwe ba bua kgang e, and I note their concerns.
We should balance those concerns against another concern gore, kana these are sealed applications, and therefore if you are going to allow the registration and the handling to be by the Registrar, the registry, you are actually opening the application to too many hands before it actually comes before the Judge.

Ke gore gakere ke tsa sephiri on the other hand, and therefore you have to limit the number of hands that handled it before there is actually hearing.
You do not want to assign it to the Judge, and then they recuses themselves because a re maybe there is a conflict, o bo o isa kwa go yo mongwe jalojalo.

Ke a utlwa, le nna e rile fa ke e bona la ntlha e ne ya ntlhaba ke bo ke re, but there has to be a system e e leng gore Chief Justice actually manages to make sure gore this becomes a secret as possible, a bo a tlhopha Judge a itse gore fa e ya go reediwa it is internal... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga re utlwe, o e tle o kope gore batho ba atumele microphone.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga a utlwale gotlhelele.

DR DOW: Ga ke utlwale gotlhelele?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O a utlwala Mma Dow, o a utlwala... HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... HONOURABLE MEMBER: A ba oketse volumes tsa bone.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Rona ga re utlwe.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Raya Vice President (VP) a oketse volume.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O a utlwala Mma Dow, o a utlwala.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Volume e okediwa ke yo o buang Rre Hikuama, ga e okediwe ke nna.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le a tlhodia, le tlhodia motho.


HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga o utlwale.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Tlhe bathong didimalang re utlweng.

DR DOW: Le gompieno jaana it is possible that I can make an application to court gore the identity of maybe my client be suppressed.

That application cannot go directly to the registry, because I will be opening up se ke reng ke sephiri.
I have to make a special application to the Chief Justice or by system e e leng gore I am asking gore maybe this child should be named as X, or A, or B. I cannot register that application in the normal registration process, because I will be actually undermining the very purpose that I say I want suppression of identity.

I wanted to balance these two concerns.

Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dr Dow.

Honourable Mmusi.

MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.


Mma Dow o ntseetse mafoko a ke neng ke re ke ya go a bua.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Chairperson, ke tsholeditse.

MR MMUSI: Jaanong ke mang yo o rileng ga o a tsholetsa?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke mo utlwile, ke ka bua gore a reng.

MR CHAIRPERSON: So what, fa o tsholeditse, so what?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le nna ke mo utlwile, ke ka boelela se a se buang.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is going to respond gakere Minister.
33 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage MR MMUSI: Mma Dow o ntseetse mafoko Mr Chairperson gore, kana golo fa re bua dilo tsa sephiri, therefore we have to protect information.

Ke kopa gore bakaulengwe fa re nganga Bills, re se ka ra ne re gobokanyetsa dilo tse dingwe le se se leng mo tafoleng.
Re leke go nna open-minded, ka gore golo fa re bua molao o e leng gore o ntse, re se ka ra ne re ya go tsaya tse dingwe tse di kwa ntle re batla go tla go di tsenya mo teng.

Kgang e tona ke ya gore, molao o we protect and there is confidentiality all the way.

I thank you Mr Chairperson.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O siile ka bonako ke ne ke batla go go botsa sengwe.

MR MMUSI: Ke teng gakere.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mma ke go botse.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O feditse gakere.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Keorapetse.


HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke ne ke re ke go botse gore gatwe... MR KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): Ke filwe floor ema pele, o botsa eng?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Oh!

Sorry.

MR KEORAPETSE: Oh!

Ke Honourable Kapinga.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa comrade.

tswelela MR KEORAPETSE: Ke ne ke tsaya gore gongwe Mthimkhulu, sorry.

MR CHAIRPERSON: O rata dilo waitse.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Laughter!)...

MR KEORAPETSE: Rra?

MR CHAIRPERSON: O rata dilo.


MR KEORAPETSE: Mr Chairperson, what the Minister seeks to do ka go dira jaana is to legitimise forum shopping.

That is the import of this provision, so rona ga re dumalane le forum shopping.

Law Society has complained ka case e ba reng Chief Justice (CJ) forum shopped Justice Gabanagae in a matter ya ga President Dr Ian Khama.
We know CJ is appointed by the President, and is appointed differently from how other Judges are appointed because ene, the President does not have to take advice from the Judicial Service Commission (JSC).

To cure the fear ya gore information may leak, let us innovate on Case Management System (CMS) of ex parte applications of this nature.

That is how we can cure this issue ya worry ya gore jaanong information can leak.
Ga ke itse gore fa o bua ka Registrar, motho wa level ya PS, o bo o re go raya gore information will be on too many hands.

If that is the case, you do not have to reveal gore this ex parte application e batla to place Honourable Keorapetse under digital surveillance.

All you need to do is to enter the case number into the CMS, then it picks a Judge.
When it picks the Judge, what appears before that Judge, e nna an ex parte application ya gore so and so must be placed under digital surveillance because is suspected of being a terrorist.

Ga re ka ke ra tsaya a political appointee.


Gape Honourable Yandani Boko, kana these purports to be in line with Section 6 ya High Court Act, e e leng gore currently le yone is under legal scrutiny ya gore a mme totatota gone does it give the CJ, even the power to empanel because we have argued about empanelment gore that thing is a bad system because it involves a human being.
Where a human being is involved in cases tse di ntseng jaana, re bone ka applications tse e leng gore CMS having picked a Judge and then the CJ decides to empanel and when he empanel, most of the time o fitlhela e le gore decisions tsa empanelment di a belaetsa.

So le yone Section 6 e, it must be scrutinised because many lawyers do not actually believe gore it gives the CJ unfettered powers to empanel, there is still that argument.

So ke forum shopping, ga re e batle, it must be stopped.
MR KEKGONEGILE (MAUN EAST): Tanki Mr Chairperson.

Nte re dumedise batlotlegi, re dumedise setšhaba.

Go a tualo gatwe prevention is better than cure.

Golo fa re na le bothata jwa forum shopping mo lefatsheng la rona and we know gore Judiciary is our last resort when it comes to gore go nne le transparency le go tshela sentle mo lefatsheng la Botswana.
If the last resort, bone ba bofelo ba re beileng mo go bone e bong Judiciary, we allow it to be corrupted in one way or the other, then we are running into trouble as a country.

Go tlaabo go setse ntwa fela jaanong ka gore puisanyo le molao di tlaabo di padile.

Ke utlwa bakaulengwe fa ba bua ka sephiri le go sireletsa mme go sireletsa le sephiri sa application, can still happen go ntse go feta fela ka Registrar, go sa tlhamalale go ya kwa CJ.
Go ka nna le processes tse pedi, e e normal fela le e e seng normal ya applications tse di ntseng jaana.

34 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage So ke dumela gore element of shared confidentiality within each and every profession e nna teng gongwe le gongwe.

Ga o ka ke wa tshwara sephiri o le nosi sa tiro e e kanakana, go bo gotwe tiro e ka tsamaya sentle.
Ga go ka ke ga kgonagala e bile ga go ka ke ga diragala mo botshelong.

Let us have shared confidentiality, let us have a different process, let the Registrar be the person not the CJ.

Tanki Mr Chairperson.

tshwana fela mme se e leng gore it is safer and within the rules tse di amogelesegang, ke gore go dirwe system fela e e ka nnang fair with all the checks and balances jaaka go dirwa gompieno.
Yone e e leng gore go dirisiwa computers go tlhopha Judges, Judge e e mo tlhophileng computer, e ka re a tsena kwa a bo a nna conflicted.

Yo o tlhophilweng ke CJ le ene, it could be the same thing.

So ke raya gore ke buile gakere.

Ke a leboga.

GOBOTSWANG DR (SEFHARE- RAMOKGONAMI): Honourable Mmusi, o se ka wa tshwenyega wa tsaya gore molao o kana re a le kgopakgopetsa.
O tshwanetse o akanye gore molao o fa o o dira, o o direle Robert Mugabe yo o ka tlang mo Botswana gongwe dingwaga tse di tlang, o se ka wa o baya fela gore ke wena le ba o nang le bone gompieno.

Fa o ka dira jalo, kana lona fa le itibile jaana le bona le le baengele, le fa rona re le bona le le batho ba sele.
Ga ke batle gore bo saatane ka gore mo Palamenteng ga go letlelesege mme lona le ipona le le baengele, direla molao o bo saatane ba ba ka busang ka gore fa o ka se ke wa dira jalo, o tlaa nna le mathata.

MR MMUSI: Clarification.
Ke ne ke re kana molao o ga se o montšha o ke o tlisang, fa o tsaya Order 42 of the rules e bua ka gore le nna molao o ke ne ke botsa… Ke boditse thata, ka batlisisa mme fela fa o e tsaya ya re, “where a case of exceptional public importance is presented, the Registrar informs the Chief Justice or any person for the time being acting on his stead, of this fact before allocation to enable the Chief Justice to determine whether a Judge or Judges should be nominated or empanelled by the Chief Justice in terms of Section 6 of the High Court Act.” Ga se molao o mosha o ke tlang ka one.
DR GOBOTSWANG: Nnyaa ke a go utlwa honourable.

MR MMUSI: Tanki sir, ke ne ke re le tlhaloganye selo seo.

DR GOBOTSWANG: Ke gore o tshwanetse go lemoga gore mme gone it lands mo kgannyeng ya forum shopping, e e leng gore ga e letlelesege.

Ke itse gore o ne o re o tshwentswe ke gore fa envelope e e tlaabong e le sealed e ya kwa go mongwe, e bo e fitlhela e le gore gongwe jaanong o conflicted, go tlaa diragala jang.

Gore e dirwa ke Registrar kana ke CJ, go tlaa nna fela jaana.
CJ o tlaabo a tlhophile yo a mo tlhophileng mme le ene yo a mo tlhophileng, e ka nna ya re gongwe go setse go ya go bulwa envelope, a bo a iphitlhela e le gore motho yo ke mangmang yo ke mo itseng.

O a bona gore go FOR AND MINISTER PRESIDENTIAL PUBLIC AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE ADMINISTRATION (MR MORWAENG): Ke a go leboga Modulasetilo rraetsho.

Ke ikokobetsa ka go ema nokeng thata se se neng se buiwa ke Motlotlegi Mme Mma Dow.

O ne a re tsibosa gore dikgang tsa mofuta o go a dirwa jaaka Tona a bua.
Ke dikgang tse di diragalang mme re tshwanetse re di ele tlhoko.

Ke gore ga re ka ke ra tsamaisa lefatshe jaaka e le gore ditsala tsa me ba kganetso ba tlaa re tshidisetsa mo dipelaelong ka dinako tsotlhe.

Nnyaa batho betsho, ke ne ke kopa fela gore a re tlogele Rre Mmusi jaaka a re gakolola, re tlogele molao jaaka a o akantse.

Ke gone mo go ka re berekelang.


Jaanong mo e leng gore e re gotwe ditlhotlhomiso le dipatlisiso ke tsa mofuta o, re bo re nna teng fa re bua jaaka re bua jaana go se molato, ke ne ke akanya gore a re fetseng kgang bakaulengwe, a re dumalaneng le Rre Mmusi.

Kgakololo ya ga Mme Mma Dow ke e tsaya tsia thata.

Se Rre Mmusi a se buang ke se utlwisisa tota, ke ne ke kopa gore a re se ka ra ya kwa le kwa, re eme nokeng se Tona Rre Mmusi a se buang.

Ke a leboga Modulasetilo.


MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR KGAFELA): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

Ke utlwa selelo, ke utlwa batlotlegi gore ba fuduiwa maikutlo ke eng.

Ke ne ke lebeletse Section 6 ya High Court Act e e fang CJ ditshwanelo tsa to empanel.

Fa ke e bala, e mo fa tshwanelo ya go tlhopha palo ya Judges fela, mme ga e mo fe tshwanelo ya gore a tlhophe gore Judge e tlaa nna mokete kana e nna mokete.
It talks about a determination of the sitting of a single Judge or as many Judges as he may determine.

So, it does not give him the power to determine the identity of the Judges but it gives him only the power to determine whether it is only one Judge who listens or it is several Judges who listen.

I think we can tinker with Clause 3 to remove the Leader of the Opposition (LOO)’s cause of complaint.
We can tinker with it by saying in it that, it will enable the Chief Justice upon receipt of that application to determine the number of Judges to preside, and not for him to choose which Judge should be nominated but the 35 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage number, either is one or three.

I think in that way Mr Chairperson, it will then be consistent with Section 6 of the High Court Act.
I think that is my proposal.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa, ke kopa go botsa sengwe Mr Chairperson before Honourable Kgafela a tswa mo floor.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

MR CHAIRPERSON: O ka botsa Minister.

MR KGAFELA: I have yielded Mr Chair.

MR BOKO: Clarification.

Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Thank you honourable.

Ke go lebogele gape go tlhalosa that provision e e leng gore the Honourable Minister o ne a ratile go ka re tsenya mo sekgweng ka yone.

I was just about to say what you have just said.


Mme fela ka bokhutshwane, molao o, re o lebeletse ka lebaka le le telele.

I do not see why this is a matter where we would need three Judges kana two panel Judges.

I think matters of this nature, a single Judge is sufficient.

I think from your years of practice, o ka itse dikgetsi tse di tlhokanang le gore go bo gotwe go bitswa Judges di ka nna tlhano, matters tse di tshwanang le tsa Constitution.

MR KGAFELA: Ke utlwile.


MR BOKO: I think a single Judge will be sufficient.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable Kgafela, can I clarify something sir?

MR KGAFELA: I do not think we can prejudge that Mr Chair as to whether a matter is complex or simple.

That is not for us to prejudge.

It will be determined as it appears before the court.

I thought we should do away with the choice of the Judge.
We can simply limit it to say, proceed in terms of Section 6 of the High Court Act and deleting these other words which precede Section 6 in this amendment.

Such words determine which Judge is to be nominated.

I think we ought to tinker with that provision to remove that part, otherwise we should then retain the secrecy of it reaching the Chief Justice in a sealed envelope and being kept secret by him but then limiting him only to the number of Judges that should be in panel but not to the choice.
The choice is conducted by the Registrar in terms of Order 42 of the High Court Rules.

It is the Registrar who follows a set system of choice.

That is how it should be done Mr Chairperson.

I propose to the Minister, as I say, re a thusana mo Palamenteng.

Some of these things are presented to us but when we think about them with deeper thoughts, ke gone dilo tse dingwe re simololang re di bona.
I think we need to tinker with that Clause to remove the complaints ya forum shopping Mr Chairperson, and confine ourselves to Section 6 on what it explicitly says the Chief Justice can do, which does not include the choice identity of Judges but only the number of them.

Thank you.
Thank you.

MR MMUSI: Ke mmotsa gone fa go Clause ya Order 42, kana gone fa gatwe “Chief Justice to determine whether a Judge or Judges should be nominated,” “whether a Judge or Judges.” Gongwe legale ga ke utlwe Sekgoa sentle; “a Judge or Judges to be nominated.” MR KGAFELA: Yes, it is still consistent with Section 6.

It says a Judge or Judges.


It makes a distinction whether he nominates a single Judge like Section 6 of the High Court Act says or he empanels more than one and that is why it then says, ‘Judges’; more than one but it does not give him the power to choose the identity of the Judges.

It limits him to choosing the number of Judges.

That is what it says, that one says ‘Judge’ and the other one says ‘Judges’.

It the number and not the identity sir.

Thank you.

MR MMUSI: Thank you for clarifying that one.


MR SALESHANDO: Mr Chairperson, tota kgang e fela fa e tswa kwa ntlheng, mathata a me e ne e le gore re nne le tsamaiso e gotweng kamoso go tlaabo gotwe go na le Judges tsa ga Chief Justice.

A re ntsheng Chief Justice mo dikgannyeng tse gore go se ka gatwe go na le special Judges ba gagwe.

I understand ba ba reng the secrecy part must be maintained.

Ga ke agente mme ga ke itse ditsamaiso tsa court and I cannot help to improve that.
I have no problem with what Honourable Kgafela is suggesting gore role ya ga Chief Justice a tseye tshwetso ya gore a o reetsa a le mongwefela kana o akanya gore ke kgang e e batlang ba feta bongwe mme gore go tlhophiwa bomang, e nne tshwetso ya the system gore ke yone e e tsayang mang.

E se ka ya nna… Forum shopping re dumalane gore ga re e batle, a re se ka ra e busetsa.

INFRASTRUCTURE AND MINISTER OF HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR MOLALE): Thank you Mr Chairperson and good day.
Ke utlwile Dr Dow, e bile ke utlwile Rre Kgafela.

You see Mr Chairperson, the purpose ya molao is to bring in about stability and peaceful coexistence, so, whatever a law is drafted, it must be complementary to existing laws.

Whenever a law is drafted, fa e ka tsosa conflict with other existing laws, go nna le mo gotweng a lacuna.

What Honourable Kgafela is saying is that, let us avoid 36 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Committee Stage that lacuna by actually saying the law that we are discussing today should actually be in conformity with the High Court Act or whatever it is called, so that re tswelele re neele Chief Justice tiro e a ntseng a e dira go le gale without prescribing beyond what has been prescribed among the operational law ya High Court.
It is on that understanding Mr Chairperson, that I concur with the previous speaker and for that matter, very rarely, I concur with the Leader of the Opposition (LOO).

I thank you sir.

MR SALESHANDO: Congratulations!

MR CHAIRPERSON: If you know, presently, it is quite clear on how cases are managed.

Why do you want to repeat that law?

If the High Court Act is clear, why do we want to repeat it?

MR MOLALE: Go bodiwa nna sir?

MR CHAIRPERSON: No, I am asking the House.


HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ka gore e ntse e le mo the High Court, why should we repeat it?

Ke se le nna ke ntseng ke se ipotsa.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Go thusa mang, ka eng?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le re jela nako.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Dr Dow.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Wena o alotse nako fela Vice President (VP).

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Wena o mo nakong ga o mo quality ya molao o o diriwang.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke batla gore dirukhutlhi tse di bolayang ditshukudu di ye go tshwarwa ka bonako kwa Okavango.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: You do not care about the quality of the law that we are making.

DR DOW: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Rre Hikuama le honourable… MR CHAIRPERSON: Ba re fa o ka atumela selo sa Makgoa.

DR DOW: Ke se atumetse, I do not know gore what is happening now.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Oketsa volume; click volume ya your device.

DR DOW: Ke okeditse, e gana go supa.


I do not know whether the matter has been settled because I think Honourable Boko le Honourable Kgafela ba itse gore how a case is registered at the High Court.

You come with your papers, you go to the Registry and not Registrar; the Registry.

They take the details and put them in a computer, save what has been the nature of the case and then who the attorneys and parties are.
That is the process as it is and I think that is an open process, so ke tsaya gore we are trying to balance that process although there has to be fairness and transparency to make sure gore the interest of the parties yo o gone foo is protected.

Ga go na forum shopping.

I think the issue really or the language we should be bringing to this Act ke gore, “a Judge or Judges to be selected by a process that will ensure traction of the details of the case.” That is what we are saying.
The Chief Justice must put in place that process without compromising or without promoting forum shopping, so there has to be a special process by which these cases are registered without giving out their details but without promoting forum shopping.

That is where I think the balance is because if you are using the current process, there is no doubt gore 10 people will know at the end of the day what the case is about, who the parties are, what is the nature of their litigation.
Ke ne ke re ke tlhalose fela gone moo.

MR MMUSI: Mr Chairperson, gongwe ke ka kopa the drafters to redraft based on what Mma Dow is saying.

Ke ene yo ke dumalanang nae.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, not just her.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Re reetse rotlhe Tona.

MR MMUSI: Nnyaa, ke le reeditse.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, ke nako ya borakanelo jaanong gatwe di budule.

Please tsamayang le ye go kopa borakanelo and we should try to be here ka 2:00 p.m le ka tla la feta jaana la mpona.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Di butswa di le kae Mr Chairperson?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Di butswa di le kwa le ntseng le e ja teng fa e le Labone.

PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED AT 1:00 P.M. FOR APPROXIMATELY 1 HOUR PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00 P.M. 37 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Members, let us resume our Committee Stage.
You will recall we are dealing with Clause 8 and there was that issue concerning the filing of ex parte applications.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Should I comment Mr Chairperson?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ee Mthimkhulu, has the floor to comment.

rra.

Honourable ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): Yes, Mr Chairperson.

When we went to the break, go ne go buiwa ka Clause ya the Chief Justice.
MR MMUSI: Ke ne ke kopa gore re ise re diege gongwe ke bue gore ke tswa go tsaya opinion e e ntseng jang kwa go ba Attorney General’s.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR MTHIMKHULU: What if I make my suggestion first?

MR MMUSI: Okay.

can still appear before any Magistrate or Judge ba bo ba kopa warrant for search or warrant for arrest, mme fa ba dira jaana, ga go na any allocation requirement in the Act.

They appear before any Magistrate any time.


They can appear before the same Magistrate over and over again but there has not been any complaint about that procedure up to this point, at least about the constitutionality or unfairness of that procedure up to this point.

That is why ke re when we allow the Registrar to do that on our behalf on a rotational basis, then I do not think there will be any complaints or any fears.

There will be nothing to fear about that process going forward.
Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister Mmusi.

MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Ke ne ke re ke ne ke bua le our drafters and we have discussed it.

Ke ne ke re re ba fe chance, they are drafting, mme ba tlaa boela kwa go nna ke bo ke tla e present.

Gongwe re ka ya kwa go e e latelang, mme gone in line with what Honourable Mthimkhulu is saying.

MR CHAIRPERSON: You are asking us to suspend Clause 8 as well?
MR CHAIRPERSON: I have given the floor… (Interruptions)…Honourable Mthimkhulu has the floor.

MR MMUSI: Ee rra; Clause 8.

MR MTHIMKHULU: Ke ne ke lebile Clause e batho ba neng ba tshwenyega ka the Chief Justice e le ene a kgonang go dira allocation for a Judge.
Kana golo mo ke ne ke akanya gore maybe to allay the fears of Honourable Members, gore go nne fela gore fa go sena go kwadisiwa (registering) case before the Registrar, Registrar can then allocate it to a Judge which should be following a system, e se computerised but on a rotational basis.

Fa e le gore he has allocated it to a particular Judge today, the next allocation is not going to that Judge but to a different Judge fela jalo, go fitlhelela ba felela ba bo ba boelela on that list.
That way I think it will allay the fears of Honourable Members.

It will also now be following go dira e kete the computer system e bone ba e dirang e le gore it allocates automatically but fa jaanong go aba motho yo o itseng gore Judges di 27.

Every time I am giving to this particular Judge, the next time I will not give him again before I allocate to the others.

Fa go ntse jalo I think it will be fair enough; do not go to the same Judge over and over again.
Gape kana golo fa o ka lebelela the Criminal Procedure and Evidence Act e e mo tirisong gompieno, the police HONOURABLE MEMBER: What about Clause 7?

MR CHAIRPERSON: Yone remains on suspension until a re bolelela gore o fa kae.

MR MMUSI: Nnyaa, Clause 7 le yone go siame, ke tla e ntsha Mr Chairperson gone fale for the sake of … (Interruptions)… Clause 7.2 ke tla e ntsha yotlhe.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are a very good gentleman.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are a gentleman of the first order.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke mo itse a ntse jalo.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ramogapi, Mr Chairperson o a bua.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Ga re kwa rankeng ya Palapye.

MR MMUSI: Hello, Mr Chairperson.

38 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage MR CHAIRPERSON: Re ne re re regarding Clause 7, if you can then put it on record gore o a re o dira eng ka yone.
MR MMUSI: Ehe rra!

Okay.

Clause 7, we will remove 7.2 and then renumber Mr Chairperson.

Then redo the numbering of 1 and 3 to 102.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Chairperson; just a quick one.

Procedure, Mr MR CHAIRPERSON: A o batla go bua kana o batla procedure tota?

O itse the difference?

MR MMUSI: Tlang re ye kwa Clause e e latelang, ke dumela gore ke Clause… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, not so fast.

There is a procedure that we must follow.


Monna wa Mahalapye Bophirima o nna confused between procedure and wanting to speak…(Inaudible)… MR TSHERE: Sorry Mr Chairperson.

Ke ne ke re ke kgakololo fela e khutshwane gore, kana remember, after Clause 6 we introduced a new Clause 7 and we numbered ka go sele.

So go batla re di number gore di tsamaye sentle Mr Chairperson.

Ga ke itse gore a ke a utlwala sentle.


MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Member for Mahalapye West, do not confuse us …(Inaudible)… as it appears on the Bill.

That is what the Honourable Minister is talking to, not the addition or anything else.

Clause 7 deleted.

Clauses 9 - 11 agreed to.

Clause 12 agreed to.

New Clause MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Chairperson.
The Bill is amended at page B.8 by inserting immediately after Clause 12, the following new Clauses and renumbering subsequent provisions accordingly - “Establishment Coordination Committee” of Controlled Invistigations 13.

(1) There is hereby established a Controlled Investigations Coordination Committee.

Committee shall be as set out in the Schedule.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, you are introducing a new Clause after Clause 12?

MR MMUSI: Yes.

14.
MR MMUSI: Yes.

14.

(1) If, in proceedings before a court, the identity of a person in respect of whom an authority is or was in force is in issue or may be disclosed, the court shall, unless it considers that the interests of justice otherwise require - (a) ensure that such parts of the proceedings as relate to the identity of the person are held in private… MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, you have now lost me.
We have dealt with Clauses 9, 10, 11, 12 and I thought you were introducing a new Clause immediately after Clause 12.

MR MMUSI: Following new Clauses not Clause and renumbering subsequent provisions accordingly.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O tsenya Clauses di le pedi golo fa Mr Chairperson at the same time.

So renumbering will be attended by ba ba dirang clean-up.

MR CHAIRPERSON: We cannot do that, we deal with one at a time.

So deal with 13 or what will become 13.


The first new Clause that you want to introduce Minister, deal with that one first.

MR MMUSI: Yes Mr Chairperson, understood.

Should I repeat it Mr Chairperson.

The Bill is amended at page B.8 by inserting immediately after Clause 12, the following new Clause and renumbering subsequent provisions accordingly - “Establishment Coordination Committee” of Controlled Invistigations 13.

(1) There is hereby established a Controlled Investigations Coordination Committee.
(2) The composition, functions and powers of the Committee shall be as set out in the Schedule.

I so move Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Honourable Minister.

Amendment agreed to.

(2) The composition, functions and powers of the New Clause agreed to.

39 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage New Clause MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you.
The Bill is amended at page B.8 by inserting immediately after Clause 12, the following new Clause and renumbering subsequent provisions accordingly - “Non-disclosure of identity in legal proceedings” 14.
(1) If, in proceedings before a court, the identity of a person in respect of whom an authority is or was in force is in issue or may be disclosed, the court shall, unless it considers that the interests of justice otherwise require - (a) ensure that such parts of the proceedings as relate to the identity of the person are held in private; and (b) make such orders as to the suppression of evidence given before it as, in its opinion, will ensure that the identity of the person is not disclosed.
(2) The court may, for purposes of subsection (1) - (a) allow a person in respect of whom an authority is or was in force to appear before it under the assumed name or under a code name or code number; and including (b) make orders prohibiting the publication of any information, from evidence given before it, that identifies, or might facilitate the identification of, any person who has been or is proposed to be called to give evidence.”.
information derived Mr Chairperson, I beg to move to substitute the word “private” with the word “camera” at Clause 14 (1) (a).

I so move Mr Chairperson.

Amendment agreed to.

New Clause agreed to.

Clauses 13 - 14 agreed to.

Clause 15 MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Chairperson.
The Bill is amended at Clause 15 appearing at B.9 by inserting immediately after the Clause, the following new Clause and renumbering subsequent provisions accordingly - “Misuse of assumed identity” 16.
An investigating officer who - 40 (a) intentionally, knowingly or recklessly acquires evidence of, or uses, an assumed identity covered by his or her authority; and (b) knows that, or is reckless as to whether, the acquisition or use is not - (i) in accordance with his or her authority, or (ii) in the course of duty, commits an offence and is liable to a term of imprisonment for life.”.

I so move Mr Chairperson.

MR REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Ke dumalana le Tshutiso ya ga Honourable Minister but ke ne ke batla go itse gore ke eng Honourable Minister, fa re tlhamalela fela kwa botshelong jotlhe mo kgolegelong, re sa tla ka gore gongwe go nne le gore o ka re kamoso re bo re simolola re re P50, 000 kana P500, 000 jaaka re tle re supe gore re atlhola madi kana kgolegelo kana di tsena tsotlhe?

Ke eng fa re ne re sa dire jalo foo motlotlegi?

Ga ke batle go tla ka amendments, ke batla clarifications fela, fa o di ntlhaloseditse ga ke na bothata.
I thank you sir.

MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR MOLALE): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Ke ne ke re re nne careful ka punctuation, we have a precedence there, commas and the hyphens have actually changed the meaning of the Clause.

Mo 16 (a), evidence of, or uses, ga ke e tshware sentle, gongwe re ka thusanya foo.

Just the punctuation itself.

MR MMUSI: Mr Speaker, ke tsaya gore kana golo fa gatwe, knowingly or recklessly acquires evidence of, or uses, an assumed identity.
Foo ga ke itse, e siame Rre Molale?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, I think it is fine.

MR MOLALE: Well, if it is fine, that is fine.

Mr M. MR CHAIRPERSON: I know.

Ba bangwe ga ba itse story sa comma.

Re tlaa se ba bolelela.

MR MMUSI: A ko o botse potse ele gape Honourable Reatile.

MR REATILE: Thank you Honourable Minister.

Potso e khutshwanyane fela Tshwene.


Ke re golo fa o ne o supa gore mo 16 (b) (ii) e ne e supa gore motho o tlaabo a lebaganwe ke molato wa gore re ka mo romela kwa kgolegelong ya botshelo jotlhe.

Ke botsa gore ke eng re Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage ne re tla ka katlholo e e boketekete jaana go sena gope fa e leng gore re tlile ka provision gongwe ya madi?
Fa e leng gore mo molaong ra re nnyaa, mme e bile fa e le gore go bokete thata, jaanong re tlaa go batla madi re bo re go tsenya mo kgolegelong ya botshelo jotlhe.

Ke batla go itse gore why re sa nna le option ya madi motlotlegi jaaka re tswa kwa ke ntse ke bona melao e re neng re e dira?

MR MMUSI: E ke dumela gore kana e tshwana le ya polao.

Ga re ka ke ra re re tlaa go kaletsa re bo re boa gape re re re batla madi.

MR REATILE: Okay, ga ke na mathata rra.

Amendment agreed to.


Proposed New Clause agreed to.

Clause 16 MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

The Bill is amended at Clause 16 appearing at B.9 by substituting for Clause 16, the following new Clause - “Prohibition of interception communications without a warrant.

16.

(1) An investigating officer shall not intercept communications unless the investigating officer is authorised to do so by an interception warrant issued under this Part.
MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Chairperson.
The Bill is amended at Clause 19 appearing at page B.10 by substituting for Subsection (2), the following new subsections - “(2) Section 7 shall, with the necessary modifications, apply to this part, and by inserting the following new Clause; (3) A court may approve a warrant under Subsection (1) and may - (a) require a communication service provider to intercept and retain specified communication of a specified description received or transmitted, or about to be received or transmitted by that communication service provider; or (b) authorise an investigating officer to enter a premises and to install on such premises, a device for the interception and retention of a specified communication or other communication of a specified description, and to remove and retain such device”.
MR REATILE: The Honourable Minister is making a reference to Section 7, “shall within the necessary modification.” Section 7 ga ke itse gore Tona is referring kwa go efe ka gore ke itse gore fa e le gore he refers mo go e e leng gore ke yone ya Bill e kana ke e e leng gore e dule semmuso, ga e sa tlhole e le teng.

Jaanong ga go na reference e re ka e dirang to yone.

(2) A person who intercepts communication without authorisation commits an offence”.
MR MMUSI: I am referring mo go e ntšha Mopalamente yo o tlotlegang Rre Reatile.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16 as amended agreed to.

Clause 17 agreed to.

Clause 18 MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Mr Chairperson, the Bill is amended at Clause 18 (1) appearing at page B.10 by inserting immediately after the word “shall”, the word “not.” I so move Mr Chairperson.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 18 as amended agreed to.


Clause 19 MR REATILE: E ntšha ke raya gore ke yone e re ntseng re e ntsha kana.

MR MMUSI: Nnyaa, go na le e nngwe e re e tsentseng e e mo Order Paper, e e reng, “protection of privacy in the controlled investigations.” MR REATILE: Okay.

MR MMUSI: Thank you Reatile, a ko re ye Mabutsane monna, dipodi tsa me di koo.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 19 as amended agreed to.

MR CHAIRPERSON: The question is that Clauses 20 to 33 stand part of the Bill.
41 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Tshere.

MR TSHERE: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson, sorry I did not have my microphone on.

My query is on Clause 32, I do not have any problem with other Clauses before that.
Kana Clause 32 ke e re neng re bua ka yone gore how do we now guard against an officer yo o tlaabong a itirela bosupi, a bo a bo tlisa fa pele ga lekgotla a tlhonama o kare ke bosupi jwa nnete?

Re mo otlhaya jang ka gore Clause 32 e mo ntsha mo molatong ya re Government be sued?

Ke yone e re nang le kutlwisanyo e sa utlwaleng sentle le Honourable Minister, ga ke itse gore o e tlhalosa jang.
Ke tlhaloganya ka assumed identity, moo ke molato e bile fa o ka o dirisa botlhaswa, but ga re bue ka yo o itirelang bosupi.

Mr Chairperson, I need a clarification on that one.

Thank you.

MR CHAIRPERSON: There are two ways of proceeding, you can dispose of 20 to 31 immediately, and then you have no proposal except you want an explanation... MR SALESHANDO: Mr Chairperson, did you say up to 31 because I also have an issue I have been waiting for Clause 24 at B.13.
MR CHAIRPERSON: ...(Inaudible)… to you that I was calling Clauses 20 to 33.

MR SALESHANDO: I thought you said to 23, my apologies.

MR CHAIRPERSON: 33, but there are no amendments noticed... MR SALESHANDO: I raised up an issue under 24.

Clauses 20 - 23 agreed to.

Clause 24 SALESHANDO MR (MAUN WEST): Mr Chairperson, ke na le bothata le Clause 24 ka fa e kwalegileng ka teng, e itebaganya le the service providers.
Ke batla go itebaganya thatathata ka gore ke tsaya gore fa re ganeletse mo go tsa megala, re bua ka bo beMobile, Orange, Mascom.

Honourable Mmusi o tsentse clause e re neng re e baakanya gone jaana at Clause 19, e e ba pateletsang gore service provider fa go kopiwa, o tlisa information e bile re ka isa equipment ra e baya koo to record, to cover them.
Now what we are doing here Honourable Mmusi ke gore, jaanong o batla to determine technology e e dirisiwang ke service providers, wa re they must install hardware and software facilities and devices which enable the interception of communication at all times or when so required le tse dingwe fela jalo.

You are now meddling with decisions of investors, ke lebelo le kgaisanyo ya gore who has the best quality network jaaka go iwa kwa go bo 5G, 6G as we go on.
Se o se dirang fela ke gore mo Botswana re tlaabo re ka kgona go ba raya re re, no you cannot upgrade your software, ka gore rona re batla e e motlhofo to be intercepted, notwithstanding that we can get an order and force them to record ba bo ba re neela.

I think we are over stepping the mark, and we are going to make our telecommunications industry less competitive fa ba ka tshwarwa ke gore the investigative bodies tsa re nnyaa, ga ke go letlelele to upgrade to where other countries are.
These companies a lot of them are international, if Orange upgrades to some software, normally it will be the world over.

Gore go bo go itsewe gore kwa Botswana Goromente o a kganela ka gore a re o batla go reetsa mme re na le provision e e tlhamaletseng e e ba pateletsang gore fa re ka re re batla go reetsa the following numbers tsa bosemangmang they have to comply.

Why go to even the technology and software they deploy, I have a problem with that but maybe there is an answer.
MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister.

MR MMUSI: The way I understand it sir, there is no restriction.

The service provider is asked to install a system ya the investigators just to a particular project.

It is not on a permanent basis which affects, it is for a particular project.

Therefore, we are not going to interfere with their upgrades on anything.

It is specifically for projects.

Jaaka re buile gore, warrant is for a particular project, it is for a period of so many months.
I thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR SALESHANDO: Read 24 (b).

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga e balege jalo, e bale.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ba reye ba go e thuse Motshweneng, ga ba go e tlhalosetse ka fa ba e kwadileng ka teng.

MR MMUSI: Nnyaa, nna ke a bala.

42 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Tshere.
MR TSHERE (MAHALAPYE WEST): Yes Mr Chairperson, ke ne ke re ke eme nokeng Honourable Saleshando.

Ke gore gape nna... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga o a supiwa.

TSHERE: ...(Inaudible)... MR Honourable Chairperson, ke tsebe ntlha honourable.

I worry ka gore jaaka Honourable Leader of Opposition (LOO) a bua, o kare jaanong re ya go bolelela batho ba gore ba dire jang ka businesses tsa bone, e bo e bile re tsenelela thata kwa go bone.
Ga ke itse gore a molao o kgona gore o nne jalo, o mpolelele ke le kwa komponeng ya me gore wena dira jaana, e bile o tshwanetse to install dilo mo dibalamakgolong tsa rona to record calls tsa batho.

Ke ipotsa gore ke eng this investigation organ e ka se ke e ithekele dilo tsa yone fela, and intersect koo e le nosi, and perhaps ask for information that relates gore go ne go letswa jang at the service provider.
Ke bona go ya go tsenya service provider dingalo tota mo e leng gore jaanong re ya go leba Mascom and Botswana Telecommunications Corporation (BTC) ka tsela e sele e o kareng ba tsaya karolo mo go reetseng phones tsa rona.

Jaanong re ya go ba ntsha jang from the responsibility ya gore o kare ba tsaya karolo mo go reetseng phones tsa rona?
This has been a case globally Mr Chairperson gore, the service providers di felela di rekisa information, di felela di reng, e bile o kare it is offered without a court order.

I support Honourable LOO.

I thank you.

MR MMUSI: Ke ne ke re a re baleng, kana golo fa gatwe, “install hardware and software facilities and devices which enable the interception of communication.” We are saying they cannot install hardware and software which we cannot enable interception.

That is all what we are saying.


HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is the bone of contention Honourable Minister.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes.

MR MMUSI: We are doing these things for where there is a security threat to the country.

It is not about the business, it is about the business, it is about the country which is important.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: I want to elucidate honourable if I may.

MR MMUSI: Yes sir.

is MR SALESHANDO: Elucidation.


Here the difficulty, wa re telecommunication system, o bua ka technical capable of supporting lawful interceptions.

O bo o tswelela gape kwa go (b), remember gore re setse re buile gore go na le e nngwe e e go letlelelang gore you can demand gore ke batla go reetsa the following conversations.

Over and above that, go na e e reng o ka tlisa.

Ke gore you can demand, ba bo ba go neela, ba a patelesega.
Before re tsena kwa go 24, you can also go and install for your own recording, go a patelesega.

But then when you go further o bo o re jaanong le software and telecommunications systems, that is an investment decision.

O bo o re hardware and software facilities describing them.
It gets worse fa o ya kwa 24 (2) on the other page, o bo o bua gore fa ba ka se ka ba dira jalo, fa o ka fitlhela ba tsentse software e e leng gore ga e go thuse, they are charged bo P50,000, and the Directors ba dirile molato ba ka ya toronkong.

Notwithstanding gore o na le Clause e e reng no matter what software or hardware they have, fa o batla information go reetsa, they must facilitate.

I think this is unnecessary over- reach Mr Chairperson.
MR MMUSI: Golo fa we cannot allow service providers to install dilo tse rona re ka se kang ra di berekisa, we need them to install dilo tse re ka di berekisang because as I say, we were looking at security of a county.

MR SALESHANDO: I am with you, my point is that Section 7 which we have just dealt with, eo e setse e go file dithata tseo.
Mo amendments tsa gago Number 10, the Bill is amended at Clause 19 ya re, “A court may approve a warrant and may require a communication service provider to intercept and retain specified communication of a specified description received or transmitted, or about to be received or transmitted by that communication service provider.” Gone moo go go fa sengwe le sengwe se o se tlhokang go dira tiro ya gago.

MR MMUSI: Nnyaa rraetsho, moo go raya gore ba ka mpha information.
Jaanong fa ka re ke batla gore ke kgone go ka tsenya equipment ya me koo, ke gore ba nne le equipment e e ka kgonang go berekisana le ya me fa go tlhokafala.

MR SALESHANDO: And therein is the difficulty, kamoso ba tlaabo ba batla to upgrade as investors to compete with other service providers internationally.

MR MMUSI: That will not affect them at all Rre Saleshando.

Mr Chairperson, that will not affect them at all.


43 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage MR RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, o bona kgang e re buang ka yone fa if my memory serves me well, go na le case e nngwe e e batlileng go tshwana le e. E e neng e ama ba sepodise, ga ke itse gore e ne e le mang golo fale.
Ba ba neng ba rekile machine that intercept mme ba kwa Mascom ba bo ba re no, software ya rona has been upgraded, ga o kgone gore jaanong messages kana communication e e fetang fa e kgone gore e e kape.

Ga bo go raya gore machine oo o nna redundant.

If my memory serves me well, motho yo o neng a emetse Goromente… Ke itse gore Rraetsho Sidney Pilane go ne go na le fa a neng a eme teng, ga ke itse gore a o ne a emetse Goromente golo fale mme ke gakologelwa o kare o ne a mo emetse.
Jaanong se ke welang ka sone ke gore kgang e e kwadilweng fa ga e a lebana.

Honourable Saleshando o bolelela ruri ka software.

Ke lesego ka gore ke mongwe wa batho ba ke ithutileng dilonyana tse dintsinyana, le communication and technology.

Software ke golo mo go shafadiwang letsatsi le letsatsi.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: O sure o a e itse wena software?

MR MMUSI: E seng ya mobile company, wena o raya ya cell phone.

Re bua ka mobile company golo fa.


MR RAMOGAPI: Nte ke wele ke go thuse Motshweneng, o a itse gore ga ke go fufegele, ke motho yo ke lebelelang dilo objectively.
Kgang e re e buang fa e ke gore fa re tsaya sekai ka computers tsa ga Goromente tse, tsa Government Accounting and Budgeting System (GABS) gore ba tle ba tlhaloganye motlhofo, system e e mo GABS e e rile fa ba re ba a e tokafatsa ka computers tse di ntseng di le mo teng, e bo e gana e re gore ke kgone go bereka, go batla gore le reke computers tse dingwe.
Jaanong se Rre Saleshando a se buang ke gone gore kana go tlaabo go raya gore gongwe bone ba ya go tla ka system e e kwa godimo e batla gore ba improve, ba bo ba na le system e e rileng ya computers tse di kwa godimo.

Kana bone ba ya kwa pele ba batla to improve e le investors jaaka re itse gore ba phadisanya le ba bangwe.

Goromente ene a re ga ke na madi, ga ke ka ke ka kgona gore ke bo ke ka berekisana le system eo.
So ke tsaya gore ka mowa o montle, a ko re lebeleleng kgang e in this manner gore jaanong fa re re re tlaabo re interfere le the investor, e bile e re re tsena kwa pele go bo go pala, re raya jang?

Re raya gone mo e leng gore tota software from time to time e nna e tokafadiwa e ntse jaana.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Honourable Ramogapi.

ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Ke bona Clause e e sena mathata fela tota a a akanyediwang ke bakaulengwe ba bangwe.

Ke gore these telecommunication companies tse Rre Saleshando ke neng ke utlwa a di umaka, go setse go na le process e e leng gore they have a system where they store information.

Some of us who have dealt with it, there is a certain period of time that they have been storing information, go tswa foo they dispose it before go tla molao o into play.
Before this law e bile o akanyediwa, ba ntse ba dira jalo from long time back, but they have been keeping it for a certain period of time, go tswa foo they dispose information eo after maybe three or six months or after a year.

There is a period that they have been keeping it.

So these systems they have them.

Ke utlwa se Rre Mmusi a se buang sentle gore these systems tsa bone di kgona to allow systems tsa the law enforcement officers to work in conjunction le tsone fela together.
E se ka ya re kamoso e re fa ba law enforcement officers ba batla data kana ba batla to intercept, go bo go nna le difficulty about the kind of system or infrastructure that they have, which may impede the law enforcement officers from performing their work.

Ke gone fela fa e leng gore maybe go ka twe Rre Saleshando o ne a ngongorega teng, a sa tseege sentle teng.
Kana Rre Mmusi o ne a bua a re these systems tsa bone, they will not in any way put any additional burden mo telecommunication providers jaaka di ntse di dira gale le gale.

Ke tsaya gore these Clauses di siame fela Mr Chairperson.

Thank you sir.

MR REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Mr Chairperson, ke tlaa ikamanya thata le kgang e re neng re gakololwa ke Honourable Molale kgantele gore re tshwanetse re bone gore fa re dira molao, ke o e tlaa reng kamoso, le bo le le mo tseleng ya tshiamo, e se ka ya re kgantele e bo e le gore jaanong re fitlhetse re re re dira molao, re bo re bofa e mengwe.

Fa o thulana le melao e mengwe, kana go raya gore jaanong o mosha o ga o ka ke wa ntsha e e ntseng e tshela mo tsamaisong.
Go raya gore e e tsayang precedence, ga ke itse gore a ke o mosha kana ke o mogologolo.

Se ke lekang go se supa fa Mr Chairperson, mo e setseng e le judgements, tsone ga re ka ke ra tla go di dirolola ka molao ka gore fa e le gore 44 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Committee Stage go na le order e e neng ya tswa ele ya gore mapodise ba ne ba re if we have mounted speed traps, batho ba ba na le technology ya gore jaanong, ba na le sensors, ba bo ba tsaya motho a ba a ya kwa court.

Court e bo e ya gore upgrade system ya lona.

It is a matter of competition.

Jaanong ga re ka ke ra tla fa, batho ba e leng gore ke bone ba neelang batho ba rona ba security intelligence interception gadgets ba sena technology that competes le ya the service providers.
Ga re ka ke ra tla go itsa service providers go gola mme e le gore tota rona ga re tsamaise kgwebo e e ntseng jalo, go na le mongwe yo o e tsamaisang a le kwa Russia kana India.

Ke gore re batla yo o ka lepalepanang le seemo sa gore technology if upgraded, o a e fitlhelela.
Jaanong se Honourable Minister a se buang a re, no, batho ba re rekang kwa go bone technology ya go reetsa ditlhabetsi mo lefatsheng la rona, fa e le gore ba palelwa ke to upgrade system, re tlaa raya ba telecommunications gore emang pele, ba rona ga ba ise ba nne le bokgoni.

We cannot operate like that.

Competition Authority Act e le gone e bereka fa kae fa e le gore re ya go itsa batho go tsamaela (move) kwa pele Honourable Mmusi?
Ke tsone dilo tse e leng gore fa re bua ka Fourth Industrial Revolution (4IR), re golotse batho ka ditomo mokaulengwe.

Information e re e batlang kwa go ba telecommunications, ga ba ka ke ba tlhoka go e re neela ka amendment e o tlileng ka yone le e Honourable Dumelang Saleshando a sa tswang go e baya pele.

Ka one mabaka a, sekaseka kgang mokaulengwe gore e se ka ya re kamoso, bagwebi ba bo ba seka le rona lebakeng la gore re ba itsa go tswelela.

Fa ba seka le rona, ba bangwe ke international company.
I thank you sir.

MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR MOLALE): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

I see a danger here ya gore Palamente e bo e tsena mo field e e seng ya yone ya go leka go supa gore they know a lot about telecommunications’ gadgets or anything like that.

Fa re ka bua jalo, everybody will come with their own knowledge of how the gadgets, systems and everything works.
I thought molao wa re, whoever is there as a service provider must always be in conformity with the dictates of our security requirements in this country.

That is where we should stop.

Ke sone fela se re se batlang and ke sone se Rre Mmusi a se kopang to try, define and show gore se se ka bereka, se ga se ka ke sa bereka, fa e le gore Goromente has to match the compatibility ya the new systems as we upgrade.

We have to do that for the sake of security.

Let us not tread into territory e e seng ya rona.


Rona a re bue fela and dictate gore molao wa re, every service provider must conform to the dictates of what we are proposing.

I thank you Mr Chairperson.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Letsatsi le ke go utlwile honourable mme ga o dumalane le Mmusi.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ee, ga ba dumalane gotlhelele.

MR MOLALE: Malatsi a Lucas, o tshwanetse go ntheetsa.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Ramogapi.


HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable Ramogapi o buile Mr Chairperson, a re tlhopheng re tsamaye.

MR CHAIRPERSON: We are at Committee Honourable Minister.

MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR MOLAO): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

Tota part of what I was going to say ke yone e e amilweng (covered) ke Rre Molale.
Ke dumela gore we do not want to have a service provider who may either deliberately or inadvertently a fitlhela e le gore has installed a system e e leng gore the law enforcement agency ga e ka ke ya kgona go e dirisa ka nako e e a bong e tlhokafala gore e e dirise for purposes of crime prevention.
Ke dumela gore molao o, covers gone foo ka gore Clauses tse di kwa pele allow for both scenarios tsa gore either the service provider can be compelled to provide the information or the law enforcement agencies can install their devices gone kwa the service provider for purposes of getting information e ba e batlang.

Both scenarios must be provided for at all times.

In my understanding… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

MR MOLAO: …Clause e, e akaretsa scenario e e ntseng jalo Mr Chairperson.
Ga ke itse gore a ke utlwa gotwe clarification.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Fa e le gore o na le nako.

MR CHAIRPERSON: You have 40 seconds.

MR TSOGWANE: Clarification.

Ke dumalana le wena Minister le Rre Molale.

Dilo tse di tshwana fela le gompieno re ntse re reka dipilisi kana mekento.

Re ntse re tlhatlhoba, re bona gore a mme go a tsamaelana, has it been accredited by others here in our country.
Ga ke bone fa go na le phoso le gore Minister o na 45 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage le experience.

O a itse gore o begetswe jang ka tse di ntseng di dirisiwa le gore a mme di tsamaya sentle kana ga di tsamaye sentle.

Jaanong a re se ka ra mo ntsha mo tseleng thata.

Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

a (BOBONONG): Ke MR LUCAS leboga Modulasetilo.


Tota kgang e builwe ke Rre Molale gore re se ka ra leka go tsena mo details tse di tseneletseng jaaka Clause e, e leka go tsenelela mo go tsa technologies.

Se se botlhokwa ke gore as Goromente, we have a duty to keep up with advances in technology.

Ga re a tshwanela go gogela ope kwa morago ka gore gongwe rona re saletse kwa morago mo technology.
Fa re dira jalo, re tlaabo re lwantsha the service providers, e bile fa gongwe re ba gogela kwa morago gore ba ba gaisanyang le bone ba tle ba fetele kwa pele ga bone.

In a free market economy, ga re a tshwanela gore e re fa re re re lwantsha borukutlhi, e bo e le gore we sabotage businesses tsa communication.
In that respect, ke akanya gore Clauses tse di setseng di le teng, tse di supang gore every service provider has a responsibility to ensure that fa molao o tlhoka for information to be intercepted, o tlaa dira jalo.

Gone mo ka bo gone fa go builwe jalo, go wetse.

Fa a sa dire jalo o molato, so, a re ntsheng Clause e e lebegang e kete will interfere with innovation and creativity ya private sector.

Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa, you are distorting my presentation.
You are distorting it deliberately.

MR LUCAS: Fa ke dumalana le wena o fitlhela o tshogile, ga ke itse gore mathata a gago ke eng.

MR MMUSI: Mr Chairperson, ke buile gore molao o o siame, ga o na mathata ape, o tlhamaletse mme re tsamaya ka one o ntse jaana.

I thank you Mr Chairperson.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… Clause 24 agreed to.

Clauses 25 - 31 agreed to.

Clause 32 MR TSHERE (MAHALAPYE WEST): Thank you very much Honourable Chair.
Ke lebeletse Clause 32 jaaka re ne re buisana ka gore re ne re supa matshwenyego a gore ya re, investigation officer fa a tsamaile a ya go tlhotlhomisa (investigate), kana a tla ka bosupi jo e seng jone, he cannot be personally held liable ene ka bo ene.

Re ne re supile gore Tona a e sekaseke, a bone gore gone foo how can we safeguard batho ba e leng gore in the past were accused ka information e e wrong e e leng 46 gore later on, the court proved that it was wrong.
Re dira jang gore re kgone to safeguard and protect batho go se ka ga tlhola go dirwa evidence, being fabricated and presented to court ka maina a bone, ba senyega maina jaana?

Ke ne ke ipotsa gore Honourable Minister perhaps he can explain why a sa utlwa eo karabo ka gore tota ke motho yo o utlwang yo a ntseng a re ruta.

Thank you very much Honourable Chairperson.

MR SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Yes, Mr Chairperson.


Bothata jwa 32 Honourable Mmusi bo fa, ya re ga o ka ke wa tsaya kgato epe kgatlhanong le ba ba berekelang makgotla a a dirang ditlhotlhomiso, tse ba ka tswang ba di dirile ba ne ba filwe tetla, authorised, ke molao.

O itse gore o kgona go nna authorised, mme a bo o abuse dithata tsa gago.

Gape re setse re kwadile kwa go tse dingwe gore le fa o filwe warrant kana o letleletswe go nna motho yo o seng, what is the word?
Yo o dirisang a fake identity, I am not saying that is what it says, ke lebetse gore le ba bitsa eng, le gore fa o ka dirisa gone moo botlhaswa, o ka atlholelwa toronko le gone ya botshelo jotlhe.

Jaanong o a bona ga e tsamaelane le e ya 32 ka gore ya 32 ya re fela fa e le gore o ne o le authorised, ga e lebelele gape gore o ka tswa o le authorised but you did more than what you were supposed to do.
That indemnity ka fa e kwalegileng ka teng, ya re fela fa e le gore o ne o na le warrant, kgang e tswetswe ga o ka ke wa tlhola o sekela sepe gape.

Gongwe o e tlhalose, o e lebelele gape ka gore e ka tswa e thulana le tse re sa tswang go di fetisa.

Ke a leboga.

MR RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

Ke dumalana le Honourable Tshere.


Kana kgang e yone tota re sale re buile ka yone re ngongorega ka yone le kwa General Assembly, re supa gore nnyaa, batho ba Modimo fa re dira melao, tota a re itse gore ga re direle rona gompieno, re direla le bana ba rona le bana ba bana ba rona ba ba tlang.

Already in Botswana we have serious crisis whereby it was stated that some of the investigators fabricated evidence.
So, in issues like these ones, should we just say motho a dirile … (Inaudible)… jo bo kalo go bo gotwe nnyaa, a go fetwe fela, ga re a tshwanela go tsamaisa lefatshe ka tsela e e ntseng jalo.

Batho ba tshwanetse gore ka fa morago ga bone, ba bo ba nna ba ntse ba itse gore if ke dira phoso ya botlhaswa, ya bofafalele, ke tshwanetse go sekisiwa, ke isiwe kwa makgotleng, ke ka seka ka bonosi.
Gape molao o jaaka Honourable Saleshando a ne a bua kwa morago, re setse re supile gore fa e le gore motho o ka dirisa assumed identity bofafalele, ba tshwanelwa ke Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage gore ba lebisiwe molato.
Jaanong Clause e e farologana le tsele, e bile gape ka ke dumalana, a bagaetsho ka tse di re diragaletseng mo lefatsheng la rona, re monele marulwana pele, re bone gore re baakanya lefatshe la rona.

I therefore support Honourable Tshere.

Ke a leboga.

MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you.

Mr Chairperson.
Mr Chairperson.

Now we understand this Clause, I do not agree with Honourable Tshere ka gore ke dumela gore kwa Clause 32 it speaks to immunity for lawful act and clarify that immunity only extends for authorised conduct.

Ke ka fa ke e tlhaloganyang ka teng, le ba molao fa ke ba botsa, re ne re e tlhaloganya ba nkgakolola jalo.

Ga ke dumalane le Honourable Tshere.

I thank you Mr Chairperson.


(MR MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION MOLAO): Mr Chairperson, ka bokhutshwane, I think ke utlwa se Minister a se rayang.

Kana ke tsaya gore Clauses tse di buang ka bofafalele le abuse, kana abuse will be determined through due process gore fa o ne o feteletse, this was abuse, e bo motho a lebisiwa molato jaaka a tshwanetse.
This one ke dumela gore it gives sort of assurance ya gore batho ba ba authorised go ya go batlisisa, jaanong ga ba tsamaye e le gore they are walking on a tightrope, ga ba itse gore fa ke gata ka fa, fa motho a ka tla a itsheka a bo a fenya case, then ke tlaabo ke ya go di arabela ka bo nna.

E tlaabo e kete re ba bofelela mabogo kwa morago gore ba se ka ba dira tiro ya bone ba phuthologile.
Kana fa motho go ne go bonwe evidence, e bo e bewa before court, there are only two things that will emerge, either they will successfully prosecute and convict or they will lose the case.

Ga re batle e re e tloga fa gongwe ba latlhegetswe ke case go bo gotwe ehe, jaanong you are on your own, o a ikarabela, bosupi jwa re e ne e se jone sentle, mme e le gore motho o ne a dira tiro ya gagwe ka tlhamalalo, a bo e le gore kwa court o latlhegelwa ke kgetsi fela jaaka mongwe le mongwe a ka latlhegelwa ke kgetsi.
Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

Clause 32 agreed to.

MR CHAIRPERSON: There is somebody else, anything about Clause 33?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is amended.

MR CHAIRPERSON: No.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Oh it is neutral, sorry.

Clause 33 agreed to.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR CHAIRPERSON: Batho ba lebala gore go na le a mute button.

MR CHAIRPERSON: There immediately after Clause 33, Honourable Minister?
is an insertion New Clause MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr SECURITY Chairperson.

The Bill inserting is amended by immediately after Clause 33 appearing at B.15, the following new Clause and renumbering subsequent Clauses accordingly - “Administrative sanctions and compesations” 34.

The Committee may impose an administrative penalty or award of compensation not exceeding P500 000 for purposes of paragraph 1 (2) in the Schedule.”.

I close Mr Chairperson.

Amendment agreed to.


New Clause agreed to.

Clause 34 (2) MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

The Bill is amended at Clause 34 (2) appearing at page B.16 by inserting immediately after paragraph (c), the following new paragraphs - “(d) the form and manner for applications made in terms of this Act; and (e) procedure, manner and form for complaints and award of compensation made in terms of the Schedule.” I so move Mr Chairperson.
Amendment agreed to.

Clause 34 as amended agreed to.

New Clause MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr SECURITY Chairperson.

The Bill inserting is amended by immediately after Clause 34 appearing at B.16, the following new Clause and renumbering subsequent Clauses accordingly – 47 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage “Savings and transitional provisions” 35.
(1) A warrant issued for a controlled investigation before the commencement of this Act shall, in so far as it is not inconsistent with this Act, continue to be effective as if issued under this Act.
(2) Information or material obtained from the undercover operations or interception of communication before the commencement of this Act by means of an authorisation issued in other relevant Acts, may be retained or used for - (a) investigative purposes; (b) evidentiary purposes; or (c) any other legal purposes, notwithstanding that the retention or use of the information or material from such undercover operations or interception of communication would, if obtained after the commencement of this Act, constitute a breach of this Act.
(3) Any lawful act done before the commencement of this Act, that falls within this Act shall, in so far as it is not inconsistent with this Act, continue to be applicable as if done under this Act.
(4) The Minister may, by order published in the Gazette - (a) pending the appointment of the Committee, make such transitional arrangements as may be necessary for purposes of the discharge of the functions of the committee; and (b) make such transitional arrangements as may be necessary for the purposes of the provisions of this Act.

I so move Mr Chairperson.

Amendment agreed to.

New Clause agreed to.

Schedule MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND (MR MMUSI): Thank you Mr SECURITY Chairperson.
The Bill inserting is amended by immediately after Clause 34 appearing at B.16 the following Schedule - “SCHEDULE (Section 13 (2)) 48 CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS COORDINATION COMMITTEE Functions of the Committee 1.
(1) The functions of the Committee shall be to - (a) assess the effectiveness of policies and measures of criminal investigations to combat serious crime related activities; (b) make recommendations the Minister for legislative, administrative and policy reforms in respect to criminal investigations; and to (c) promote coordination among the investigatory authorities, supervisory authorities and other institutions with a view the effectiveness of existing policies and measures to combat financial offences through criminal investigations.
improving to (2) Notwithstanding the generality of subparagraph (1), the Committee shall - (a) protect the interests of interception subjects and targets; (b) receive and hear complaints in respect of the use of warrants issued under this Act, and shall in hearing the complaints - (i) apply the same principles as would be applied by a court on an application for judicial review, (ii) consider matters before the Committee with a sufficient degree of care as to ensure the protection of privacy and interests of complainants in line with Section 7, and (iii) impose administrative award compensation, issue and follow up enforcement procedures to ensure compliance with conditions of warrants issued under this Act: sanctions, Provided that an administrative sanction, award of compensation or decision made by the Committee under this paragraph shall have the same effect as a judgment of the court; (c) recommend regulations for the better carrying out of its responsibilities under this Act, including - (i) codes of conduct, and (ii) records to be kept by investigatory authorities for applications for warrants under this Act; Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Committee Stage (d) advise the Minister on matters relating to controlled investigations techniques and proposed policy and legislation; and (e) perform all additional functions and duties as may be prescribed.

Powers of the Committee 2.


For the purpose of carrying out its functions under this Act, the Committee shall have power to do all such things as appear to it to be necessary or incidental to the proper discharge of its functions, and may, in that behalf, act in association with other persons or bodies who are knowledgeable about controlled investigations.

Composition of Committee 3.
(1) The Committee shall comprise of the following members - (a) the Permanent Secretary responsible for Defence, Justice and Security or his or her representative; (b) the Permanent Secretary responsible for International Cooperation or his or her representative; (c) the Attorney General, or his or her representative; and (d) six other persons, appointed by the Minister in consultation with the Chairperson, from among persons with - (i) at least 10 years’ experience in human rights, finance, law enforcement, intelligence, Information and Communications Technology (ICT), including any other related subject, and (ii) expertise in subjects under subparagraph (i).
(2) A representative under subparagraph (1) shall not be below the level of Deputy Permanent Secretary.

(3) A person under subparagraph (1) (d) shall be subjected to a security clearance to access sensitive or classified information.

Chairperson of Committee 4.

(1) The Committee shall have a Chairperson who shall be - (b) appointed by the Minister.

(2) The members of the Committee shall appoint, from among their number, a Vice-Chairperson.
(3) A member of the Committee shall hold office for a term not exceeding four years and shall be eligible for re-appointment for another four-year term upon the expiry of his or her term of office.

Disqualification for appointment as a Committee Member 5.
A person shall not be appointed as a member of the Committee under paragraph 3 (d) or be qualified to continue to hold office who has - (a) in terms of a law in force in any country - (i) been adjudged or otherwise declared bankrupt and has not been rehabilitated or discharged, or (ii) made an assignment to, or arrangement or composition with, his or her creditors, which has not been rescinded or set aside; or (b) within a period of 10 years immediately preceding the date of his or her proposed appointment, has been convicted of a criminal offence and sentenced by a court of competent jurisdiction to imprisonment for a period of six months or more without the option of a fine, whether that sentence has been suspended or not, and for which he or she has not received a free pardon.
Vacation of office 6.
A Committee member shall vacate his or her office - (a) if he or she becomes disqualified in terms of paragraph 5 of this Schedule to hold office as a Committee member; (b) if he or she is absent from three consecutive meetings of the Committee without reasonable excuse; (c) upon his or her death; (d) upon the expiry of one month’s notice, given in writing to the Minister, of his or her intention to resign his or her office; (e) upon the expiry of such time as the Minister may specify in writing, notifying him or her of his or her removal from office by the Minister; (a) a Justice of Appeal or retired Justice of Appeal, Judge or retired Judge, or legal practitioner who qualifies to be appointed as a Judge; and (f) if he or she becomes mentally or physically incapable of performing his or her duties, as certified by a qualified medical practitioner, as a member of the Committee; or 49 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Committee Stage (g) if he or she is convicted of an offence under this Act, or under any other Act for which he or she is sentenced to imprisonment for a term of six months or more without the option of a fine.

Removal and suspension from office by Minister 7.


(1) The Minister may, if he or she is satisfied that a Committee member has acted improperly as such member, or is mentally or physically incapable of performing his or her duties efficiently, require that member, in writing, to vacate his or her office within such time as he or she may specify.
(2) The Minister shall, in writing, suspend from office a Committee member against whom criminal proceedings are instituted for an offence in respect of which a sentence of imprisonment may be imposed, and whilst that member is so suspended he or she shall not carry out any duties or be entitled to any remuneration or allowances as a member of the Committee.

Filling of vacancies 8.


On the death of, or the vacating of office by, a Committee member, the Minister shall appoint a person to take the place of the member who died or vacated his or her office until the expiry of the period during which such member would have otherwise continued in office.

Secretariat 9.

The Ministry responsible for Defence, Justice and Security shall act as the Committee’s Secretariat.

Meetings of Committee 10.


(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, Committee shall regulate its own proceedings.

(5) There shall preside at any meeting of the Committee - (a) the Chairperson; (b) in the absence of the Chairperson, the Vice- Chairperson; or (c) in the absence of the Chairperson and Vice- Chairperson, such member as the member’s present may elect from amongst themselves for the purpose of that meeting.
(6) A decision of the Committee on any question shall be by the majority of the members present and voting at the meeting and, in the event of an equality of votes, the member presiding shall have a casting vote in addition to that person’s deliberative vote.

Disclosure of interest 11.


(1) If a member is present at a meeting of the Committee in which the member is directly or indirectly interested in a private capacity is the subject of consideration, he or she shall, as soon as practicable after the commencement of the meeting, declare such interest and shall not, unless the Committee otherwise directs, take part in any discussion or voting of the Committee on such matter.
(2) A disclosure of interest made under subparagraph (1) shall be recorded in the minutes of the meeting at which it is made.

(3) Where a member fails to disclose his or her interest in accordance with subparagraph (1), and a decision by the Committee is made benefitting such member, such decision shall be void to the extent that it benefits such member.
(2) The Committee shall meet as often as is necessary or expedient for the discharge of its functions: (4) A member who contravenes subparagraph (1) commits an offence.

Provided that at least 12 ordinary meetings shall be held in each year, and such meetings shall be held at such place, time and day as the Chairperson may determine.
(3) Upon giving notice in writing of not less than 14 days, a meeting of the Committee may be called by the Chairperson provided that if the urgency of any particular matter does not permit the giving of such notice, a special meeting may be called upon giving of a shorter notice.

(4) The quorum at any meeting of the Committee shall be a simple majority of the members of the Committee.

Confidentiality 12.
Confidentiality 12.

(1) A member or any person attending a meeting of the Committee shall observe and preserve the confidentiality of all matters coming before the Committee, and such confidentiality shall subsist even after the termination of their terms of office or their expert mandates.

(2) Any person to whom confidential information is revealed through working with the Committee shall not disclose that information to any other person unless he or she is required to do so in terms of any written law.
50 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage (3) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (1), a member may disclose information relating to the affairs of the Committee acquired during the performance of his or her duties - (a) within the scope of his or her duties under this Act; or (b) when required to - (i) by an order of court, (ii) under any written law, or (iii) in the investigation of an offence.
(4) A person who contravenes the provisions of this paragraph commits an offence.

Co-option of advisory personnel to Committee 13.

The Committee may co-opt any person to attend any meeting of the Committee on any matter for the purpose of assisting or advising the Committee, but such person shall have no right to vote.

Committee’s funds The Committee’s funds shall consist of monies allocated to it from the Consolidated Fund.
Payment of Members A Committee member shall be paid such allowance and such travelling expenses, incurred in connection with his or her service on the Committee, as the Minister may determine.

Signification of documents All decisions of the Committee shall be signified under the hand of the Chairperson of the Committee, or a member who presided at the meeting where the decision is made.
Annual Report (1) The Committee shall, within a period of six months of the end of the financial year, or within such longer period as the Minister may approve, submit, to the Minister, a comprehensive report on its operations during such year.

(2) The Minister shall, within 30 days of him or her receiving the report under Subparagraph (1), lay such report before the National Assembly.” I so move Mr Chairperson.
MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES, GREEN TECHNOLOGY AND ENERGY SECURITY (MR MOAGI): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Just subtle corrections there, on page 8, 4 (1) (a), I think there is a missing ‘be’ “qualifies to be appointed.” That is what I picked.

Then on question 10 (5) (c) “member’s”, there is no apostrophe there under members.

Then there are a few other ones where we need to be really consistent on the punctuations.

I thank you Mr Chairperson.


MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Minister, you are quite right.

MR SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Minister ke na le bothatanyana under “composition of Committee.” Gore gongwe re ne re ka thusanya to improve.

Kana komiti e ke yone gape e e sekasekang gore a molao ga o dirisiwe botlhaswa.

I hope I am using an acceptable word.

Fa o na le ngongorego, ke yone e o ka ikuelang kwa go yone.

Gakere molao o o tsamaisiwa ke Lephata la Puso e leng la gago.
Fa go nna jaana gape e bo e le gore boloko jwa komiti yone e bo na le bo PS wa gago, PS wa kwa Foreign Affairs, boorra Attorney General le bagolwane ba bangwe ba Puso, kana oversight go tewa go tlhodumela gore a ba ba filweng boikarabelo ba tsamaisa sentle.
Jaanong fa komiti e o ikuelang kwa go yone gape e tletse ba e leng gore ke badirelapuso go sena ba ba senang a duty to defend the department, oversight e batla o na le objectivity ya gore you are not part of the system, o eme kwa ntle o lebelela mo teng gore a mme go tsamaisitswe sentle.

A ga o bone go le botoka gore mo go ba o neng o batla go ba tsenya ba le six, o letlelele gore e se ka ya nna batho ba ba berekang mo Pusong?
Mo go neng go tlaabo go raya gore Sub-clause 3 (2) e e reng, “A representative under subparagraph (1) shall not be below the level of Deputy Permanent Secretary.” Kana go raya gore o batla ba Puso fela.

You do not even have scope for mongwe yo o ka tswang kwa bo Law Society a na le experience e ntsi ya melao e e tsamaelanang le dilo tsa telecommunication mme e le agente.

A ga se sengwe se o bonang se ka thusa mo go tokafatseng komiti ya gago?

Ke a leboga.
Ke a leboga.

MR REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): Tanki Mr Chairperson.

Tlaa ke dumele fela gore ke page 9 ya composition of the committee, e Honourable Minister a supang gore mo bathong ba ba six ba a buang ka bone… Kana jaanong re ne re sa tswa mo melaong ya FATF, re ntse re mo go yone, mme maabane jaana Honourable Serame o ne a re raya fa Honourable Lucas a ne a tla ka 51 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Committee Stage amendments gore re batle batho ba dikitso tse di rileng ba tle ba kgone to serve ba ba thuse, o ne a tlhalosa gore ga re ka ke ra nna prescriptive.

Jaanong gompieno jaana Tona o tla a le prescriptive mo dikgannyeng tsa gore jaanong o batla batho ba e leng gore ke ba 10 years, Human Rights, Finance, Law Enforcement and Information and Communications Technology.

Jaanong ke ipotsa gore why are we departing mo kgannyeng ya maabane re bolelelwa gore ga re ka ke ra tsaya yone route e?
Gompieno jaanong Tona ene fa a tla ka yone a tswa from the same Cabinet, a tla a dira sone se e letseng maabane gotwe go tlaa bo go se kaone, Palamente ga e ka ke ya leka gore e nne prescriptive mo go direng melao mo lefatsheng la Botswana.

Ke ipotsa gore jaanong gone fa go tsamaya jang.

O tlaa tla a e tlhalosa go ya pele.

Le gone ka palo ya committee Mr Chairperson, we must be cognizant of the cost of creating such a big committee of people, e le gone re simololang fela re bo re setse re re 10 members.
It has cost implications tse e leng gore might be avoided if we start with a lower number.

Ke a leboga Mr Chairperson.

MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Ke dumela gore committee e e siame.

Ga ke nyatse gope.

The reason why re na le Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Defence ke gore kana re dira ka dilo tsa security.

Re bo re nna le Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of International Cooperation because re tlaabo re dira nako e nngwe ka dilo tse di mo mafatsheng a sele.

We need that advice.


Attorney General re lebeletse yone melao.

Then, six other persons appointed by the Minister.

Jaanong ga ke itse gore mo go e ya 4 (a) a ke ne ke e bona sentle Mr Chairperson.

Ke ne ke bua ka e ya 4 (a) Honourable Minister fa o neng o bua gore, “A legal practitioner to…” ke tsaya gore ke “to be appointed as a Judge.” Ke yone small typo gongwe e ke e boneng gone foo.
Ya bofelo o felela mo Schedule o ntse o bua gore, “he or she will be committing an offence.” Jaanong ke batla go itse gore offences le dikotlhao tsa bone ke eng ka gore tsa officers tsone ke a di tlhaloganya?

Jaanong ba ba komiti fa ba commit an offence jaana jaanong offences tsa bone kotlhao ya teng ke e e ntseng jang motlotlegi?

Ke eme gone foo.

MR KAPINGA (OKAVANGO): Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Le nna ke bue ka palo ya komiti e Mr Chairperson.


From my experience, I do not think we should be expecting a high volume of cases that this Committee is going to deal with.

To start with a committee of 10 members, fa ke ba add, ke gorogile kwa palong ya 10, I think to start with a committee of 10 members is an overkill because we do not expect that high number of cases to be dealt, or a load of work that would justify a 10 members’ committee.
Sa bobedi, ke kope Minister gore a tlhalose gore, ke gore go nne clear tota gore tiro ya komiti e e tlaabo e le eng.

Is it oversight or coordination?

Ke buisiwa se Mr Chairperson, ke Clause 1 (c) “to promote coordination among the investigatory authorities.” How does he envisage this committee coordinating or promoting coordination among the investigatory authorities a lebile functions tsa yone?

Ba ya to coordinate jang those functions?


52 and information Re bua gore we need 10 years’ experience in human rights, re kwadile gore re ya go tlhopha batho ba ba le six ba na le experience mo dilong tse di farologaneng.

Dilo tse re dumelang gore ke tse re batlang go di lwantsha thata, human trafficking is a big challenge which we must fight.

Finance, money laundering, law enforcement intelligence, communications technology, yo o ka kgonang go gakolola komiti.
That is why we need a broad-based committee, e e tshwanang le e. Ga re a tshwanela gore re e dire nnyennyane re re re lebeletse gore we share the money.

Le nna ke dumela gore, komiti e e tlaabo e duelwa ka allowances, so fa e le gore e lebeletse cases di le pedi fela mo ngwageng, then it is also fine, we are not spending, mme fa cases tse di le kwa godimo, definitely ga go na molato, mme gone we need a wide range of experience ya batho.
Ke dumalana le komiti e thata e. the coordination among Honourable Kapinga o ne a re, how is it going to investigatory promote authorities?

Re na le maphata a a farologanyeng a investigatory authorities, re na le DCEC, DIS, sepodise le eng.

Komiti e e tshwanetse e bone gore maphata a ga a gotlhagotlhane, ga go nne le sepolotiki mo go one.
It is very important that we ensure that coordination e nna jalo, ka gore kana fa maphata a ka tloga a gotlhagotlhana, e tlile gore kamoso re bo re nna le dikgang tse dintsintsi, ba sa kgone go berekisanya sentle.

Honourable Reatile, ke kopa gore o boelele potso ele ya gago sir.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: The question Mr Minister is, how are they going to coordinate, how?

Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Committee Stage MR MMUSI: They are going to coordinate ensuring that ba a kopana, they see what the challenges are.

Kana fa e le gore lephata le lengwe ga le bereke le lengwe sentle, coordination e tswa foo gore go berekisanngwe sentle, tiro e nne in a structured manner.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: They are harmonizing maphata comrade?

MR MMUSI: Ehe rra, thank you for that... HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... MR MMUSI: Rra?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Minister, ba bolelele gore it is time up.
MR REATILE: Gone fa Honourable Minister, maabane re sa tswa go bolelelwa ka kgang ya prescriptive, gore fa re dira molao ga re ka ke ra nna prescriptive.

Jaanong wena fa mo bathong ba ba six o tla o tlhamaletse fela o re ga ke batle go leba ka kwa ntle, ke leba fela fa.

Honourable Mmusi o letse o e gana jaana, ka gore e ne e tla ka Honourable Lucas.

Ke batla go itse gore a kgang e ke ya gore re lebelela mebala kana content e e bewang mo tafoleng?

Ke sone fela se ke lekang go se tlhaloganya.


MR MMUSI: Nnyaa, kana... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa, o ke o sele molao.

O ba reye o re ole e ne e le o sele, o ke o sele o. MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Mthimkhulu.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Melao ya brigade, primary le secondary ga e tshwane.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Mthimkhulu, kana o tobeditse ka phoso?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Kante backbench ya BDP e kae?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Fa e sale maabane, they are not attending.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ba ile Mogoditshane, ba ile go le ja kwa Mogoditshane kwa.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga ba yo koo Vice President (VP), ga ba dire tiro ya gago, ga ba yo koo.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Re a le toula kamoso.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke ba rometse koo, ba tlaabo ba dule mo tseleng.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Owai!

ba dule mo tseleng VP.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Reetsang Speaker o a bua.

Amendment agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.


MR MMUSI: Ke ne ke re ke a rialo your Honour, molao o ke o sele, wa maabane ke o sele.

Clause 8 MR REATILE: Go tulwe gatwe Palamente ga e ka ke ya nna prescriptive ...(Inaudible)... MR MMUSI: ...(Inaudible)...gotlhe e bo e nna ditonki fela, ke ditonki.

No, melao e e farologane, re e lebelela ka pharologano.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, we are now moving back to report Parliament from committee.
But we before we do that, Honourable Minister have you ...(Inaudible)… to Clause 8 which was suspended?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa, ke ne ke re Palamente ga e ka ke ya dira job description.

MR REATILE: Serame ene a re ga e ka ke ya nna prescriptive, ene ke wa prescriptive.

MR MMUSI: O ne a itse gore o lebeletse eng.

MR REATILE: Eish!

Waitse golo mo ga go lebelela sepolotiki go tlaa dia waitse, ke go dia barwaledi.

MR MMUSI: ...(Inaudible)... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Unmute yourself.
MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, remember we suspended the debate.

MR MMUSI: ...(Inaudible)... HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR MMUSI: Tota ke lemogile gore lona ke lona le... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke ya forum shopping?

53 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Ee.

(c) Parties to the application.

MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.


Mr Chairperson... HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)...

I so move Mr Chairperson.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Members, I think it is straightforward... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Reetsang Mmusi o a bua tlhe batlotlegi, re tle re tšhaise.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: I have a question Mr Chairperson.
MR MMUSI: Mr Chairperson, gakere wa re the Bill is amended a Clause 8 appearing at page B... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Re letetse wena gore o tlhalose, gore jaanong o e baakantse jang, o e bale... MR CHAIRPERSON: ...(Inaudible)... go ka bega kwa go Chief Justice, Chief Justice a bo a tlhopha gore kgang e tlaa reediwa ke mang.

We recall the explanation by Honourable Mmusi Kgafela and the other Honourable Members is to how the system in the High Court works, and how it ought to work.
MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, I beg to substitute for sub-Clause 3 the following new Clause 3, “in any application received in terms of Subsection 2, the Register shall ensure that the application remains under (c) and that the disclosure of any information in relation to the application shall be made only to the - MR CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SALESHANDO: On a point of clarification.


I have a question Mr Chairperson, kana re ne re rile re batla to address two things; ya confidentiality e a utlwala ka fa a e buang ka teng.

Fa ke sa utlweng teng ke gore se re neng re leka gore se se ka sa diragala sa forum shopping, a se diragetse ka fa a balang ka teng?

Fa o re Judge allocated, is it by the Chief Justice (CJ)?

MR MMUSI: Ga ke a bua jalo, molao o o specific, ga o bue ka CJ, o bua ka selo se se diragalang kwa Palamenteng.
MR CHAIRPERSON: Is not by the CJ?

MR MMUSI: Ee.

MR CHAIRPERSON: And the system as it is right now.

(a) relevant officers directly concerned with the proceedings of the application; MR SALESHANDO: Okay sir.

I am covered, if that is the understanding.

(b) Judge allocated or Judges empanelled to hear the HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... application; and (c) Parties to the application.

I so move Mr Chairperson.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: A ko o ipoeletse, ga ke a go utlwa.
MR MMUSI: Okay, 3 ra re, “in any application received in terms of Subsection 2, the Register shall ensure that the application remains under (c) and that the disclosure of any information in relation to the application shall be made only to the - (a) relevant officers directly concerned with the proceedings of the application; (b) Judge allocated or Judges empanelled to hear the application; and Clause 8 as amended agreed to.
MR CHAIRPERSON: As far as I recall, that was the only outstanding Clause with the amendments moved by the Minister.

The amended Clause therefore stands part of the Bill.

the Honourable Members, we shall now Committee and go back to full Parliament.

Honourable Mmusi, you may report the Bill from Committee.

leave CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Bill reported from Committee with amendments.

Third Reading - Forthwith.


54 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) Committee Stage Third Reading CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.

1 OF 2022) At this stage Honourable Members, may I call upon the Leader of the House to move a Motion of adjournment as we have cleared your desk for today, nothing pending on the Order Paper anymore.
MOTION (Minister of Defence, Justice and Security) ADJOURNMENT LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Ke a leboga Mr Speaker.

Nte ke leboge Mapalamente mo dibekeng tse pedi tse ba itiretseng tshiamelo, ba direla lefatshe la bone tshiamelo gore nako e gorogile ya gore jaanong ba phatlalale mme ba simolola Budget kana beke e e tlang.

Ke a leboga.

Ke kopa gore Ntlo e e ka ya bokhutlong Mr Speaker, jaaka o kopile.

Question put and agreed to.


The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 4:08 p.m. MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, the question is that the Criminal Procedure and Evidence (Controlled Investigations) Bill, 2022 (No.

1 of 2022) be read a third time.

MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Mr Speaker, I move that the Criminal Procedure and Evidence (Controlled Investigations) Bill, 2022 (No.

1 of 2022) be read a third time and do pass.

MR SPEAKER: Order!

Order!


Honourable Members, the question is that the Criminal Procedure and Evidence (Controlled Investigations) Bill, 2022 (No.

1 of 2022) be read a third time and do pass.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: We suspend the rules Your Honour.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR SPEAKER: Do you see anything wrong Honourable Members?

Now we are getting caught up again with the Standing Order, it is prescribed as division.
HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Speaker, ke kopa to move gore re suspend the relevant Standing Order gore re se ka ra felela re call a division ka gore re a dumalana ba rotlhe.

I so move Mr Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: 62.1(c).

MR SPEAKER: Order!

Order!

Honourable Members, the Motion is that we suspend the application of Standing Order 62.1(c).

Question put and agreed to.

Bill read a third time and passed.


MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, we have now disposed of all the stages of this Bill in accordance with the Motion moved this morning.

55 Hansard No 204Friday 4th February, 2022CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND EVIDENCE (CONTROLLED INVESTIGATIONS) BILL, 2022 (NO.
1 OF 2022) Third Reading HANSARD RECORDERS Mr T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Mr M. Buti, Ms Z. Molemi, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi HANSARD EDITORS Ms K. Nyanga, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms G. Lekopanye, Ms T. Mokhure, Ms B. Ratshipa LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B.

B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae 56 Hansard No 204