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V1., JELIZE io, 11/1/4 ■THE SENATE Tuesday, 1 September 1981 10:30 a.m.

PRESENT; The President, the Honourable Mr. V/.E,.


Coffin The Vice-President, the Honourable-Mr. G, Ramos Senator, the Honourable Mr. C.L.B, Rogers, Minister of Home Affairs ■ Senator, the Honourable Mr. A. Fuller Senator, the Honourable Mr.-H, .Lewis Senator, the Honourable Mr.- M. .Esquivel Senator,' the Honourable Mr. A. Aragon Senator, the Honourable Mrs. E. Searle ABSENT: Senator, the Honourable Mr. J. Chun IV MR. PRESIDENT in the Chair.

PRAYERS read by Mr. President.


1 BILLS BROUGHT FROM THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES SENATOR C.L.B.

ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): fc President, I rise to signify my willingness to take charge Ef the Land Utilization Bill, 1981, the Belize Constitution Mil, 1981, and.

the Control of Public Meetings and Public processions (Amendment) Bill, 1981.

I move that they be |aken through all their stages forthwith.
■T 'I MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question as that the Bills be taken through all their stages forthwith.

All those in favour, kindly say aye; those against, Kindly say no.i I think the ayes have it.

J| PAPERS B SENATOR C.L.B.

ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): [Mr.. President, I rise to lay on the Table, Sessional Papers ‘Nos.

52/1/4 to 50/1/4.

s :.s MR.'PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, those Papers fee ordered to; lie on the Table..
I'-- I MOTIONS RELATING TO THE BUSINESS OR SITTINGS OF THE SENATE SENATOR C.L.B.

; ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): Xr, President,j I move that at its rising today,- this Senate Mourns to a date to be fixed by the President.

MR. PRESIDENTr Honourable Senators, the Question [’s that at its rising today / the Senate adjourns to a date & be fixed by the President, 1, (hi V * :• ■ ■ j • • i ... ■' ■ • ■ [ f I' fe I i ... F lill !

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|l l ii' (2) All those in favour-, kindly say aye; those against, indly say no.

I think the ayes have it.

PUBLIC BUSINESS A.

Government Business MOTIONS 1.

Guarantee of Loans to the Banana Control Board SENATOR C.L.B.- ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): Nr.
President, I move:- E WHEREAS by Resolutions passed on 7 October 1977 and 15 December 1988, this Senate approves the guarantee by Government of loans by the Bank of Nova Scotia, Barclays Bank International, the Royal Bank of Canada, the Atlantic Bank Ltd. and the Development Finance Cooperation to the Banana Control Board of a total sum of $5,000,000 (five million dollars) at the price rate of interest; AND WHEREAS as a condition to the extension of the time for repayment of the said loans the said lending Institutions require that the rate of interest payable under the said loan agreements shall be increased to prime rate plus one percent; NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that this Senate approves the increase of the rate of interest payable on the loans of $5,000,000 (five million dollars) made to the Banana Control Board by the Bank of Nova Scotia, Barclays Bank International, the Royal Bank of Canada, the Atlantic Bank Ltd., and the Development Finance Corporation to the prime rate of interest plus one percent.
I signify the Governor's recommendation.

MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question is - NOW, THEREFORE, BI, IT RESOLVED that this Senate approves the increase of the rate of interest payable on the loans of $5,000,000 (five million dollars) made to the Banana jControl Board by the Bank of Nova Scotia, Barclays Bank Ltd. £the Royal Bank of Canada, the Atlantic Bank Ltd., and the 'Development Finance Corporation to the prime rate of interest |plus one percent.
All those in favour, kindly say aye; those against, kindly say no.

I think the ayes have it.

2.

Resolution .on On-lending of proceeds of CDB Loan from the Government .of Belize to the Belize Electricity Board SENATOR C.L.B.
ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): Mr. President, I move: /WHEREAS ... ■ | ______ ---------------------’ ' II 1BSs ■'«_• —.----- r-iir-iiwnm 111 in B ''' ■ ' ■ ' V ■ ‘tl WHEREAS by a Resolution dated 3 February 1981 this Senate approves tne borrowing by the Government of Belize of US$5*0ra (US five million dollars) for the purpose of the upgrading and expansion of the electrical system in Belize.
AND WHEREAS Section 20 of the Belize Electricity Board Ordinance (Chapter 156 of the Laws of Belize) require the approval of the National Assembly for the placing of such funds at the disposal of the Board and the specification of the rates of interest and the mode and time of repayment; NOW THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that this Senate approves (a) the placing at the disposal of the Belize Electricity Board of funds not exceeding a sum of US$5.Om (US five million dollars) (b) that the Belize Electricity Board shall repay the said sum as set out on the Order Paper,, I signify the Governor's recommendation.
MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question [is that - NOW THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that this Senate approves (a) the placing at the disposal of the Belize [Electricity Board of funds not exceeding a sum of US$5.Om |b) that the Belize Electricity Board shall repay the said 'sum as set out on the Order Paper.

All those in favour, kindly say aye; those against, kindly say no.

I think the ayes have it.

3 Loan.

jtp__the Government of Belize - Caribbean Pevelopment Bank SENATOR C.L.B.
ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): w, President, I move: ■ f'5j .pl - E •j .

-41 WHEREAS under the provisions of Section 3 of the Loans (Caribbean Development Bank) Ordinance, 1981 (No.

26 of 1971) the Government may, in such manner and on such terms and subject to such conditions as may be agreed between the Government and the Bank from time to time, borrow such sums as may be required by the Government.
AND WHEREAS the Caribbean Development Bank has now agreed to lend the sum of US$75O,OOO (United States dollars seven hundred and fifty thousand to the Government for the purpose of assisting in the construction of the Belmopan Hotel in Belmopan, Cayo District.
BE IT RESOLVED that this Senate approves the loan of US$750,000 from the Venezuelan Trust Fund established in Caribbean Development Bank to the Government for the purpose stated above on Caribbean Development Bank's standard tekuid and conditions and on the terms and conditions stated on the Order Paper.

The Governor's recommendation is signified.

/MR.

PRESIDENT .

.. .


< i I ffli 1 i llII u[ if i (4) ' MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question is- BE IT RESOLVED that this Senate approves a loan of ®$75O,OOO from the Venezuelan Trust Fund established in aribbean Development's Bank's standard terms and conditions md on the terms and conditions stated in the Motion.

Honourable Senators, the Question All those in favour, kindly say aye; those against, Tndly say no.

I think the ayes have it.

4.


Resolution for on-lending of Funds from Royal Bank of Canada to Government of Belize SENATOR C.L.B.

ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): Hr.
President, I move - 1 I I 1 I f - | I'- WHEREAS the Government of Belize desires to borrow funds for the purpose of financing a Housing Project in Belize; AND WHEREAS the Royal Bank of Canada is prepared to make funds available to the Government of Belize; NOW THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that this Senate authorized the Minister of Finance on behalf of the Government and people of Belize to enter into an agreement for a loan of USS2.Om (US dollars two million) from the Royal Bank of Canada to the Government of Belize for the purpose of financing a housing project in Belize on such terms as he deems fit including the terms as set out in the Order Paper.
I signify the Governor's recommendation.

MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question |s that - NOW THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that this Senate Authorizes thejMinister of Finance on behalf of the Government and people of Belize to enter into an agreement for a loan |fUS$2.0m (US$ two million) from the Royal Bank of Canada 1'6 the Government of Belize for the purpose of financing a: housing project in Belize on such terms as he deems fit [including the terms as set out in the Motion.
All those in fzvour, kindly say aye; those against, Kindly say no.

I I think the a yes have it.

5.

Resolution for on-lending of Funds from Atlantic Bank to the Marketing Board SENATOR C.L.B.

ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): Mr. President, ■ I move - Be it resolved that this Senate approves additional overdraft facilities of BZ$400,000 from Atlantic Bank Ltd. to the Marketing Board to finance milk operations of the Board.

I signify the Governor's recommendation.

/MR.


PRESIDENT ... 'll i’ll ■I I ( ■ JI I I i I * I .1 i ■ I ■ 11 r : I ■■ fl I : L.: ■I i ■ I 0 (5) .. MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question is - - resolved that this Senate, approves additional overdraft cilities of BZS>400,000 from Atlantic Bank Ltd. to the ?keting Board to finance milk operations of the Board.

All those in favour, .kindly say aye; those against, idly say no.

.

I think the ayes have it.

6.


Resolution on Belize's Membership of the Commonwealth of Nations SENATOR C.L.B.
ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): President, I move - WHEREAS it is the declared policy of the Government of Belize to apply for full membership of the Commonwealth of Nations on the attainment of Independence; AND WHEREaS Her Majesty's Government has agreed thnt Belize shall become an Independent State on the 21 September 1981; BE IT RESOLVED that the Senate directs that a formal application be made to the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth of Nations for full membership for Belize of the Commonwealth; BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Senate hereby requests Her Majesty's Government to support and assist Belize to become a member of the Commonwealth; AND BE IT ALSO FURTHER RESOLVED that the Senate directs that copies of this Resolution be despatched without delay to the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth of Nations and the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.
I r I ■ II I I 1 1I Is SENATOR M. ESQUIVEL: Mr. President, I wish to move ^amendment to the Motion proposed by the Honourable Minister.

Move that the Motion be amended by the addition of the following paragraph after the last paragraph of the Motion.
"Provided that no action shall be taken on this resolution unless or until the people of Belize have been given an opportunity through a referendum to decide whether or not they wish to enter into independence with the Heads of Agreement and that this House is fully satisfied by a vote of not less than 3/4 of its membership, that suitable arrange­ ments for the defence and security of Belize after independence exist."

SENATOR E. ARAGON: Mr. President, I rise to second Motion.
MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question is the amendment be made.

All those in favour, kindly say... fl '< >7^3 ’ • fl il ■■I J j I (6) SENATOR C.L.B.

ROGERS: endment as I understand it; Mr. President, you put the MR. PRESIDENT: Yes, the amendment then I'll go on the Motion.

Now we'll talk on the amendment.

f SENATOR M. ESQUIVEL: Yes, just a word or two to .
liplain the reason for this amendment and that is, that I ■mink Honourable Senators are aware that in the House of representatives sometime ago, the Honourable Premier made a commitment to that House th°t he would be informing the House If Representatives fillly of all arrangements which have been ... ;lade for the future security and defence of Belize after .

■independence.

To date this has not been done, Mr. President.
lihat is, the House of Representatives, to the best of my ■powledge, still awaits such an explanation from the Premier, lind it seems to me that this was an undertaking that the (Membership of the House of Representatives be fully aware of •111 of the provisions for the future security and defence of ■Belize before they would be asked to support anything dealing Ivith a date for independence, and since this has not been done, Jit is felt on our side that some mention of the future security 'lof Belize should be made in anything dealing with the .^independence of Belize.
V.'e certainly are in agreement with Bhe concept that whenever Belize becomes independent it should .

'•■become a member of the Commonwealth of Nations.

There's no ^difficulty in that.

However, the difficulty is that a date being made, the 21st September for independence, without .

g the undertaking given to the other House being kept by the ■Government,.
We therefore feel that it is in the interest of [Belize and Belizeans that this Senate should place on record J .the need for a firm security arrangement, and we also feel, ■i»as has been our policy all along, Mr. President, that on this 'Tiiost important step in the history of a nation, the power to .
'Jsay aYe or nay rests with the people, and we feel that because ia'it is our policy that the power to say yes or no rests with j.the people, that the people should be given that opportunity Win a referendum.

This has been stated in many places and on J many occasions, Mr. President, and I'm merely reiterating it ■ There for the record and I ask the Honourable Senators to '’seriously consider this amendment and to vote yes.

Thank you very much.

SENATOR C.L.B.


ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): mr. President, if no one wishes to speak on the amendment - The proposition before this Senate is strictly to do pith membership of the Commonwealth of Nations.

I think one ?

;0f the propaganda had been both in this country and abroad Ijj'hat Belize would not enter the Commonwealth.
Belize is today, through its National Assembly and it has passed the House [already, taking the decision that an independent Belize should Become a{member of the Commonwealth of Nations.
To us this is [of great'importance, Mr., President,, that as part of the [preparation for the independence of Belize, Government, on ■behalf of the people of Belize, take the necessary steps to 'seek membership of the international organization which play key roles in the international society for the benefit of Binkind, both this and other resolutions that will be coming pefore the Senate very shortly.
/The ... (7) r j ihe Commonwealth of Nations itself, Senators and The Commonwealth of Nations itself, Senators and ■ff.

President, is a voluntary association made up of independent ■sovereign nations bound together by a common heritage and Iconunon objective.

Each state responsible for their own ■policies; consulting and cooperating in the common interest , jof their people and in the promotion of international under- asianding, peace and goodwill.
Member states regard Queen Elizabeth II of the IJnited Kingdom as the symbol of their free association and as such the head of the Commonwealth.

So it indeed surprised us men this amendment to reject the membership of the Commonwealth fes proposed by our distinguished colleagues on the other side.

For the benefit of members, I think I should mention j ■3soine of the historical perspective of the- Commonwealth.
The Mfedern Commonwealth had its beginning in 1947 with the demise The Lof British rule in India with countries which became independent Ian the last few decades forming the majority of its members.

[The Commonwealth has been especially concerned to quicken the pace of de-colonization.

Commonwealth leaders have used the Association to advance independence for subject peoples.

[I( ■ ■ii .
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£1 In the case of Belize, we have received overwhelming secure independent Belize with all its Support for a saf °, territory intact.

from the technical assistance programme of the Commonwealth funds, a technical cooperation which has offered us advice, /experts and training in many areas.

As a member of the experts and training in many areas.
Commonwealth of Nations, Belize will be able to fully participate Furthermore, Mr, President, we have benefited I at the highest level of the decision making and will benefit [/from the various forms of assistance offered to member state.

[The resolution before this Senate will enable Belize to become la'member of the Commonwealth of Nations and fulfill its ■financial obligation of membership.

■(i-MLI 11 .

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1 3■ ael The Senator, in proposing the amendment, Senator, _ Esquivel, has talked of a promise made to the House to bring ‘-to it a security arrangement.

Mr. President and Members of tihe Senate, all of us, I believe, were informed, we heard on Ithe radio, we read in the press the security arrangement for Belize.

In fact, it came over the BBC, internationally also.
|.That record was read in the House during the debate on this ‘Very Motion last Friday and the commitment, Mr. President, was gnot for a referendum on independence, We have gone over this '■many times.

The commitment that the Government made was for E referendum on the Heads of Agreement not on independence, phis Government has never agreed that there should be a [referendum on independence when in fact those questions were ;put to the people in the general elections in 1979.
What r'the Governnmt undertook was that any treaties emerging from [the Heads of Agreement would be put to the people in a [referendum and the Government continue to stand by that.

If ■‘any treaties ever follow, arise out of the Heads of Agreement, •the treaties would be put.

It is a political trick to try to /translate that now in terms of a referendum on independence.
She re seems to be a continuous obstruction to independence ^whatever form it comes in., Whether it arises out of the ’•Heads of Agreement cr whether a defence arrangement which the government said it was travelling on two roads.
The Heads of /Agreement i ii I ■ i ■ 1 ,U 'til ■'I I r ■ r j I (8) ■Agreement if it fails we would proceed on the other road for ■defence arrangement and that can only cone, become fully ■mown in detail when Belize is an independent state and ■kchange letters of agreement with the United Kingdom, ■cannot do so in its present colonial state.

■achieve its independence.

in order to formalize its agreement ■Shen it can sign contract, when it can sign treaties.
It ■cannot sign a treaty now because it is .a colony and that is ■thy we are all trying to hasten the date of independence to joe able to make our own arrangements in the best interest of ■ ;his country.

Thank you, Mr. President.

pen it can sign contract Belize has to It SENATOR M. ES4UIVEL: I take it we -are still I ■ debating the .amendment.

So if I may wind up.

■grateful to the Minister for his remarks, ■comne nts on them.
I am very I do have a few The Minister at one point said that the House had i I been informed in a similar way to the rest of the nation by la release read on the radio on the security arrangement(and I gazetted too) and in the House of Representatives, which he I alleged fully informed us of the defence and security I arrangements for Belize after independence.
His last remarks I seem to contradict that, Mr. President, that he said that we I Cannot know fully the defence arrangements until after we I are independent, (in detail, quite right), which is what we I (want to know.

What has been read on the radio and in the I House and gazetted leaves us no better off than we were I before as far as knowing what the defence arrangement is.

If So that was my point, Mr. President.


j a’ ■r ■> Also, I must congratulate the Minister on his little dig there about us opposing entering into the Commonwealth ■ q; Nations.

I think I prefaced my remarks and I remembered, Nr.
President, saying that we certainly did not oppose 'membership in the Commonwealth of Nations and I think I must (thank the Minister for very eloquently pointing out all of , ■/« the benefits which would accrue from such membership, which Jwe had been saying all along, and I'm very glad that the government has seen the wisdom of what we have been saying.
^However, nevertheless, the point of my amendment had to do •with the security arrangement of Belize and I still wish to 'ask Senators to consider it seriously and to vote for the amendment.

Thank you very much, Mr. President.

■ MR. PRESIDENT.

Honourable Senators, the Question as that the amendment be made.

All those in favour, kindly say aye; those against, bkindly say no.

I think the ayes have it.

Now on the Motion.
Honourable Senators, the Question is BE IT RESOLVED ■that the Senate directs that a formal application be made to the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth of Nations for full -membership for Belize of the- Commonwealth; I I,1 I- Ji Ji I ■ ■J (9) BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Senate hereby | Quests Her Majesty's Government to support and assist Belize ‘become a member of the Commonwealth; AND BE IT aLSO FURTHER RESOLVED that the Senate irects that copies of this Resolution be despatched without Kay to the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth of Nations Id the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.
All those in favour, kindly say aye; ffidly say no.

I think the ayes have it.

those against, 7.

National Symbols Resolution SENATOR C.L.B.
ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): fr, President, I move - WHEREAS: (1) in accordance with the decision of the Belize Constitutional Conference a representative Committee was formed on a bi-partisan basis comprising members of the People's United Party and the United Democratic Party to make proposals on national symbols for Belize; (2) the selections mo.de by the National Symbols Committee were arrived at by consensus; (5) the Report of the Committee has been laid on the Table of this Honourable Senate; BE IT RESOLVED that the Senate approves the Report of' the National Symbols Committee, as amended by the House of Representatives, and prescribes its recommendations as the National Symbols of Belize in pursuance of section 122 of the Belize Constitution.
Mr. President, I think that this net shows the maturity of Belizeans.

That they can, in spite of what they lay, agree on something that they- con discuss their differences ihd arrive at consensus.

J happy on this side, Mr. President, that we have arrived with consensus on these matters of great importance and that further rhe amendment to the National Kit hem which was amended ..nd which comes to.

the Senate amended already.


It was amended in the House; was arrived at between me leaders of the people over the Table.

That Lost bit was arrived nt in one of our discussions on the recent unity talks well for the future of this tjhat were held.

country and'the political maturity of its representatives.

I recommend the resolution for passage by the Senate.

t I it SENATOR M. ESQUIVEL: I rise to support the Motion gut by the Minister.
I too am very happy to see that at least on this we have been able to reach a common ground and consensus ■by the time tried method of compromise.
I can recall in this Senate, I believe it was during the debate on the White Paper bn the Constitution, the Honourable Minister expressing the |iew that a joint commission on the national symbols would be ■i I f; ■i .1 I 'l 4 1 i do) •-Jhse the national symbols would have to be approved by the ■ .iationnl Assembly, and tlr't we could never agree on that Miatter anyway, so th--t it was 0. waste of time even suggesting ■ wt.

I am very happy to sec that now he agrees that if we try .
.-■|!nrd enough, we can find w^ys of agreeing with each other.

|<e can find ways of unity without uniformity.

'We can find .•..■lays of agreeing without conformity and I think that I must .-isgree with him that this is a good sign.
It is something Ivhich we from our side sincerely hope will continue to be ■'..|the order of "the day; that is, that Government and Opposition pill seek those methods which are best able to work in order Ito find ways and means of finding common ground on matters |of extreme national importance, and so I wish to record also, ■Mr.

President, my happiness that at least on the matters of .

(-islthe national symbols there has been agreement.
The method iiwhich was suggested, even though it seemed hopeless perhaps Tat the time, has in fact worked out, and it should be an -|,indication to the other side that such a method has merit Band should be used in the future on other issues.

So I support the Motion.

I Hi i SENATOR C.L.B.

ROGERS: Let me for the records ■(correct my remarks and to soy to the Senator that we are .■jigger than these little petty things.
That if indeed I felt l.that it was useless to meet in a bi-partisan committee, I ■[stand corrected today.

What is true today changes tomorrow.

SWihe only thing that doesn't change is the principle of change gO'itself, Mr. President and I rm well aware of that.

But the •'Senator knows fully well that although I hod said these words • that I worked very hard to bring about agreements and to make 'Toy own predictions wrong.

The Senator knows thr-t fully well.


■[So there is no propaganda value in saying that because I said « this I was trying to obstruct.

I rm always trying to make '^agreements and I'm always fighting for consensus, Mr. President and that is why although it meant the majority sometime and I think at the time what I said was that they always think of compromising terms of the majority giving way.

Well, we (.did give way because we want harmony, we want unity.
So, Mr. President, in spite of th it, the only point I am making is that I worked to make my prediction wrong.

I have faith in human beings and we hope that on other matters the Opposition will show this spirit which was enunciated today by the Senator on the other side.

■ MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Sen--.tors, the question BE IT RESOLVED that the Sennio approves the Report of the ^National Symbols Committee.

ns .’.ended by the House of "S Representatives, and presc?
?ibcs its recommendation as the National Symbols of Belize in pursuance of section 122 of foe Belize Constitution.

All those in favour kindly say aye; those against, Kindly say no.

I think the ayes have it.

SENATOR C.L.B.

ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): Mr. President, I move - I X!
■al ■wa ,0 r ■'1 1 -.■a '1 ' a (11) WHEREAS : 7 " ' 21 September 1981; Belize shall proceed to independence on AND UHEREaS the Public Seal comprises the Royal Crest, the Cont-of-^rms, the Royal Style or Title, and the name of the country; AND WHEREAS the Royal Style and Title is Elizabeth II Queen of Belize and of the other realms and territories; BE IT RESOLVED th"t this Honourable Senate, pursuant to Section 130 of the Belize Constitution adopts the existing Public Seal as the National Seal of Belize.
; • | Mr. President .and Members, the proposal is that Belize on the attainment of independence on 21 September 1981 remains within the Commonwealth.

The proposal is that the existing public seal be retained.

The- new Roy-.1 Style and Title be incorporated.


The -'.mended public seal will comprise the Royal Crest, the Coat of z>ms of Belize, the Royal Style and Title Elizabeth II by the Grace of God Queen of Belize and ■ other realms and territories, head of the Commonwealth nt I the risk of sounding more royalist th-'.n the other side and , the name of the country Belize.

The resolution before this ; Honourable Senate will enable us to adopt and use the public I seal subject to certain modifications.
■S I- ■;-1 | ■/J is BE IT RESOLVED that this Honourable Senate, pursuant to Honourable Senators, the Question MR. PRESIDENT: E_____ 11.

1..

I Section 130 of the Belize Constitution adepts the existing 1, Public Seal as the National Seal of Belize.

■ ■■■J B'kindly say no.

All those in favour, kindly say aye; .

I think the ayes have it.

those against, l ■ .

?

W I :--- - - >1 RMr.

President, I move - 7 % Membership of the United Notions Resolution SENATOR C.L.B.
ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): ‘ a r ' ri I' h - mA - ' h-■ h- I Ml I1 I ‘ - 3 WHEREAS: (1) it is the declared policy of the Government of Belize to seek membership of the United Nations Organization and its related organs on the attainment of Independence; (2) .
Belize sh-'-ll proceed to independence on 21 September 1'1’1; (3) the United N-tions has played a significant role- in the imminent attain­ ment by Belize of independence, by the consistent implement-.tion of ~he General Assembly's Decl'ration on the Granting of Independence to Colonic 1 Countries and Peoples and particularly through resolutions of the General Assembly; s j l I IB.

.

’'.I <■ I .... /(4) .... 17?

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11 1 I !< I 11 ■ |- (12) (4) in its resolutions A/C4/J5/L8 passed on the 11th November I960 the General ussenbly welcomes the declared intention of the Government of Belize to apply for membership on th.
attainment of independence; BE' IT RESOLVED th; t this Honourable Senate authorizes the Government cf Belize to apply for full membership of the United Nations Organization and its related organs, and to assume "11 the financial responsibilities and other obligations of membership.

The United Nations, Mr. President, has played a significant role in supporting the independence of Belize with its sovereignty and territorial integrity.
The General Assembly of the United Nations has passed several resolutions to this effect the latest being the United Nations Resolution of the 11 November 1980 which is referred to in the resolution.

It called upon the United Kingdom to continue negotiating with I Guatemala to take Belize to independence before the- next I session of the General Assembly in 1981 this year and to continue I to defend Belize.
It called upon the World Community to take appropriate It called upon the World Community to take appropriate I action to facilitate the independence of Belize and to guarantee - its ecurity and territorial integrity thereafter or such action .

for those purposes ns may be requested by the United Kingdom L or Belize.

It called upon Guatemala .

"'.nd Belize after independence to work out arrangements for cooperation on matters of mutual .«;■ concern.
The United Nations is .an organization of sovereign (nations.

It provides the machinery to help find solutions to (•disputes or problems and to act on generally any matter of “''general concern to humanity.

It doos not legislate in the :sense of enacting laws that nations must 'ccept.
But in the meeting rooms and corridors of the United Nations, representatives '1 of most countries of the world, great or small, rich and poor, ^Mwith varying political views and social systems, have avoice I and a vote in shaping the policies of tl?

international community '> .on a broad.range of issues.

Membership in the United Nations, fl ■RMr.

President, is open to all pence loving states which accepts .Jgjthe obligations contained in the.
charter and in the judgement of :aMBhe organization are able and willing to carry out these obligations.

flHras a peace loving nation, it is highly desirable that Belize Membership in the United Nations, ^should seek membership of the United Nations and its related ;agencies.

g; Because of Belize's peculiar position in international .affairs, it, is recommended that membership in the United Nations Organization be given priority.
This must also be treated as [a matter of urgency because of the political and defence potential [of membership in this organization.

Admittance to this organization Should be regarded as a step which must mature contemporaneous [with the assumption of independence, application must therefore [be lodged and processed prior to independence day.

I ask for the support of this Senate on the passage of phis resolution.

t /:k. j 'll 1 !l ii !


i ii n■ I I' (15) jl MR. PiiBSinBKE: Honour’’.ble Semtors, the Question is ■ BE IT RESOLVED that this Hon; ur -.ble Senate- authorizes the Government of Belize to '■pply for full membership of the United Nations Organization and its related organs', and to assume all the financial responsibilities and other obligations of membership.

All those in favour, kindly say aye; kindly say no.

I think the ayes have it.

those against, 10.
Membership of the International Monetary Fund Resolution SENATOR C.L.B, ROGERS (Minister of Homo nffairs): Mr. President, I move - WHEREAS: the international Monetary Fund was (1) establish'd to manage the exchange rote system of th< world and to provide short­ term fincnci'l support to countries experiencing balance of payments difficulties; (2) financial and economic benefits will ■accrue tc Belize upon becoming a member of the International Monetary Fund; (5) it is the policy of the Government of Belize on the attainment of independence to seek membership of International Organizations trit serve the best interest of Belize; BE IT RESOLVED th't the Senate authorizes the Government of Belize to seek membership of the International Monetary Fund and.
to assume the financial responsibilities and other obligations of membership.

I >■ I I I I I Members, Mr. President, the IMF w.ns created at the •t Bretton Woods Conference in New Hampshire in 1944 to manage /J?

the fixed exchange rate system and.

to provide short term dl financial support to countries with balance of payment difficulties.
------ The IMF, International Monetary Fund, also helps member J j .s|; :countries 'experiencing payment difficulties in identifying problems Band remedies and take account of the countries social and ^political objectives.

The Fund.his increased its collaboration fwith the World Bank to ensure that adjustment programme support a ^recipient country's investment priority.

It is envisaged that (Belize will actively participate in the .activities of this EDeilZc Will dGbJ-Vto-Ly pc-1 U J_U uiixo b t?
J-ll UI1C .lu u -L v x u xc o ; Institution.

The resolution before this Honourable Senate will give ■Government on behalf of Belize the authority to apply for ^membership in the IMF and to undertake all the financial and lother obligations of membership.

IM l ■llJ ,^r| .•■'•MP I I commend the passage.

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(14) MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question is BL IT RESOLVED that the Senate authorizes the Government of ; Belize to seek membership of the International Monetary Fund and to assume the financial responsibilities °nd other obligations of membership.

All those in favour, kindly say aye; those against, [kindly say no.

I think the ayes have it.

11.

Membership of the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development Resolution SENATOR C.L.B.
ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): Mr. President, I move - WHEREAS: (1) the Intern'-tional Bank for Reconstruction and Development, (also known as the World Bank) was established to provide financial and technical assist "'nee for the development of its member countries (2) financial and economic benefits will accrue to Belize on becoming a member of the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development; (3) it is the policy of the Government of Belize to seek membership of International Organizations which serve the best interests of Belize on the attainment of independence; BE IT RESOLVED th.’t the Senate authorizes the Government of Belize to seek membership of the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development "nd to assume the financial responsibilities and other obligations of membership.
I commend the passage of the Motion.

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ji j I MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question is ■•r?

; )E IT RESOLVED that the Senate ;o seek membership of the Intern tian-.l Bank for Reconstruction and 'uthprizes the Government of Belize v J levelopment and to assume th.

fin'-ncinl responsibilities and other J Obligations of membership.

1 I All those in favour, kindly say -ye; those against, ■ | |ndly say no.

I think the.ayes hove it.


12.; Membership of Organization of American St-tes Resolution SENATOR C.L.B.

ROGERS (minister of Home Affairs): President, I move - WHEREAS: (1) it is the intention of the Government of Belize upon the attainment of independency to ploy its port in strengthening the Inter­ American System; (2) the- States or this Hemisphere have established the Organizatipn of American States ns a regional agency of trie United : j J i /.

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Q • v • ■ a• 11 ■ I ,1 i :1 Ji ■: s Ih i i h i ii (15) Nations to strengthen their collaboration, to defend their sovereignty, their territorial integrity and their independence; BE IT RESOLVED that the Senate authorizes the Government of Belize on Independence to seek membership of the Organization of American States and to assume the financial responsibilities and all other obligations of membership.
Mr. President, the Organization of American States is The prevention of possible causes of conflict and La regional agency, as the resolution states, of the United Nations.

It is the oldest regional society in the wo Id dating back to 1890.

The charter of the OnS proclaimed an important function of that organization as the strengthening of the pence and security of the continent.

the pacific settlement of disputes in the hemisphere.
reaffirms this principle that international order consist essentially of respect for the personality, the sovereignty and independence of states.

The (DAS as.it is called, has been involved in the broad area of Inter-American cooperation to enhance political relations and foster economic, social, educational, scientific, technological and cultural developments.
It Inter-American Cooperative .action in the term applied to the many types of international assistance furnished to the member countries.- On the 25th September 1980 at the 10th Regular /Session the OAS General Assembly endorsed the pro-Belize resolution earlier adopted by the United Nations General Assembly calling for Ithe independence and territorial integrity of Belize by the end of 1981.
Further more, the OAS resolved to offer its cooperation to facilitate the constitutional evolution of Belize as a sovereign independent state of the Americas and to o.ssist the independent ■state of Belize to develop harmonious relations with its neighbours and other states in the hemisphere.

Article 8 of the OaS charter, Mr. President, does not fallow membership to be accorded to any states whose territory is toeing claimed by a member state of the OAS.
Belize will continue to pursue Its policy of seeking membership of this regional organization with the support of friendly nations of the Americas.

The resolution before the Senate is to authorize the government of Belize on independence to continue to seek membership of the OAS and to assume the financial ^nd other obligations inherent in this membership.

I commend the passage of this resolution, Mr. President.

SENaTOR M. ESQUIVEL: Thank you, Mr. President-.

Just one remark.
Just one remark.

Perhaps I could prevail on the Honourable Minister in replying, to say a bit more about the statement he made.
I think he said it was Article 8, that member states who have a claim on another country or territory (as implied from his statement) would nave a right to veto membership from any applicant who happens to be claiming, which is the unfortunate- situation of Belize and Guatemala, and I would seek the Ministers indulgence if he would direct some remarks to that, of Guatemala with regard to the membership of Belize in the Organization of American States.

Thank you, Mr. President.

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., as to what is the present attitude f.v ' •‘i • I • 1 j /3i,L~20R .

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■ ( II i' If I • (16) SENATOR C.L.B.


KOGERS: Mr. President, to answer ■ the question posed on the other side', I do not know the ■ attitude of Guatemala to '.a independent Belize’s application I for membership to the Organization of American States, but I I do know and all of us know that the Organization of American | States has endorsed the United Nations resolution for the ■ acceptance of Belize into the organization.

Time will tell I what the Guatemalan attitude will be.
But I think that the Bway is paved and although there ivy be difficulties ahead, ■what we are saying here, Belize must continue to press for ■ membership and once we are in the United Nations, we are U members of the United Nations itself, the Latin American ■ group to which all the Caribbean States belong would be using jail means at their disposal, to got Belize under this .■■•umbrella organization for the defence system.
I think also that it is in the interest of Guatemala •j | for Belize to become a memb-.r of the Organization of American ■States.

Guatemala's first concern is to see that all the ■[newly independent states, as I understand, their interest are ■ together in the same organization.

In fr'ct, there is only Kone country th°t is outside the organization of its own ■[voluntary will, the country of Cuba.

I think they did not I think they did not jwant to go!

back in, they were put out of the organization.


1 I think that it would be in the interest of order to the area rand peace to the area for Guatemala to support, or at least Ito remain silent and not to exercise any form, I'm not sure Ithat they have a veto to exercise, but not to appear to be ■•preventing Belize from becoming a member.

The other country ■phat I know that is not a member is the country of Guyana and ithat is not of their own, they would, like to become a member.
.-Sphe Organization of American States ir-s not p ssed a similar ^■.resolution as they have done on Belize.

They have not done |?.so in the case of Guyana.

I think the prospects are good, [although I say there may be difficulties ahead but that [.Belize's membership, it would not be in the interest of our [neighbour to prevent or to try to prevent the entry of Belize [into that organization.
MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question is BE IT RESOLVED that the Senate authorizes ths Government [of Belize on Independence to sc-rk membership of the Organization [bf American States and to • -ssunc; the financial responsibilities Ind all other obligations of membership.

tj-kindly say All those in favour, kindly say aye; those against, •no.

I think the ayes have it.

13- Membership of the Non-Aligned Movement Resolution SENATOR C.L.B.
ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): Mr. President, I move - WHEREAS: (1) it is the policy of the Government of Belize to contribute as an Independent State solving the global concerns faced by developing countries and to maintain a policy of non-alignment; 3-1 - i- ,3 •n| ■Hl1 /•(2) .

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(17) (2) the Non-..limed Movement comprises neutral grouping of countries committed to a co-ordin-’ted stand on issues affecting developing countries; (3) the Non-Aligned Movement has granted Belize special status, including the right to spexk, nt Conferences of Heads of State or Governments anti has consistently supported Belize in its struggle for self- determination, independent and territorial integrity; BE IT RESOLVED th't this Senate authorizes the Government of Belize to seek membership of the Non- Aligned Movement and to assume the financial and other obligations of membership.
Mr. President and Members of the Senate, the Non- ■Aligned Movement has consistently supported the case of ‘ 'Belizean independence with full sovereignty and territorial .

Integrity.

This support is contributed to the overwhelming ' !

support to Belize by the wider international community.

1 s ..commend the passage of this resolution to the Senate.
i MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question ; j is BE IT RESOLVED that this Senate authorizes the Government "I jJ of Belize to seek membership of the Non-Aligned Movement and "■’“io assume the financial and othex1 obligations of membership.

B ..■■ Ikindly say '-'I < 1 ■ ■■■;.

1, All those in favour, kindly say aye; I think the -'.yes have it.

no.

those against, 14.

Relationship with the European Economic Community Resolution SENATOR C.L.B.

ROGERS (Minister of Horae Affairs): ■ .
President, ' j I move I - Iris jl WHEREAS: (1) it is the policy of the Government of Belize to maintain close economic links with the European Economic Community on the attainment of independence; (2) it is the objective of the Second ACP/ELC Convention of Lorad and the Georgetown Agreement to promote trade and economic cooperation between the European Economic Community and the African, Caribbean end Pacific States; (3) financial and economic advantages will accrue to Belize by accession to the Second ACP/EEC Convention of Lomd and the Georgetown Agreement; BE IT RESOLVED that the Senate authorizes the Government of Belize to accede to the Second ACP/EEC Convention of Lom4 and the Georgetown -agreement end to assume the financial responsibilities the financial responsibilities nnd other obligations of membership.. ■ !
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I- I I II (18) 1 - ■this resolution.

Mr; President, I urge the support of the Senate to t MR. PRESIDENT: honourable Senators, the Question ■is 3E IT RESOLVED that the Senate authorizes the Government ■of Belize to accede to the Second .

'.CP/EEC Convention of Lomd ■and the Georgetown Agreement and to assume the financial ■ responsibilities and other obligations of membership-.

!

kindly say no.

■kindly say no.


I think the ayes have it.

All those in favour, kindly say -aye; those against, III BILLS FOR SECOND READING 1.

Land Utilization Bill, 1981.

SENATOR C.L.B.

ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs):- ■Mr.

President, I rise to move the Second Rending of a Bill for an Ordinance to provide for measures to govern the use and development of land and to introduce measures for conservation of land and water-sheds.

I commend this resolution (sic) to the [Senate for passage.
Mr. President -and Members of the Senate, the need ■ for this Bill should be self-evident.

It is the protection Jof the land and the environment particularly the water-shed J areas.

Theie has been a disturbing observ'tion that improper .-a methods are being used and we must protect and preserve our ■:water-shed areas.

SENATOR M. ESQUIVEL: Mr. President, I noticed that Mr. President, I noticed that |there are several amendments of the Bill and there is one which ■ Is not clear to me.
And again, perhaps in his second speech, J the Minister may clear up the difficulty, and that is the last ■ amendment, No.

18 Section 18 of the Bill.

It says that "this ■ amendment, No.

18 Section 18 of the Bill.


1 part of this Ordinance shall not apply where the divided ([portion of any land is transferred to the owner of any land (abutting on the said sub-divided portion and where the divided (portions are to be alienated to the transferred wife or children (and each parcel of land so alienated or divided is provided hath a right of way".

What is not clear to me, Mr. President, |is what is meant by this pert of this Ordinance.
It seems to I ne that the Ordinalce is divided into numbered sections and I there' s a Part I on Subdivision and then there follows Part II on Utilization.

My question is whether the amendment No.

18 in the Bill refers to the entire Bill Section I up to this [faint Section 17.

That is the only matter I was seeking some clarification on.

i' • ■ ■ SENATOR C.L.B.

ROGERS: If no one wishes to speak, ■ ■ Mr. President, may I reply.
The Bill essentially is to provide against subdivisions that wills or codicils, any land left by wills or codicils would not be affected..

This is the assurance I am told to give.

Phe Bill is 'to control subdivision and to protect the water-sheds Ind nothing'to do with, or affecting the transfer of lands from me party td the other through wills or codicils.

MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question is ;hat a Bill 'for an Ordinance to provide for measures to govern I ft;' p" ■■ '• ’• • r ?

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■ .. (19) pthe use and development of Land and to introduce measures |for conservation of land and water sheds, be read a Second Time.

j All those in favour, kindly say aye; those against, ■ kindly say no.

I think the ayes have it.. Ifl Orders, 'Bl Bill re^d a Second Time "nd, pursuant to Standing committed to a Committee of the Whole Senate.

2.

Belize Constitution Bill.

1981 SENATOR C.L.B.

ROGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): !


Mr. President, I rise to move the Second Reading of a Bill I for a Constitution fox’ o.n independent state of Belize.

* .1 an amendment to this Bill.

The amendment is called the Mr. President, at committee stage I will be moving .

i® [Transitional Provisions amendment to provide for the ■[transitional period.
It is out of an abundance of caution , ■■that this is being done because the House had already amended ■[the typographical and procedural, if I am correct, amendments .land I understand that the Bill that is before the Senate is ■ !flphe tended version.

Now that being so then I only have to ■sgive notice of the amendment which members have been given • ■1 [notice of for the Transitional Provisions.

Am I correct?

lEThe question is, Mr. President, that that amendment occur in ■■[committee stage,.
1.1 1 Well, then, Mr. President, I will be very brief 1 that an independent Belize requires this independence E TConstitijtion and the Constitution came from the House.

You ■will all remember that the proposal for r constitution came pout from the National Assembly by a Joint Committee.

The mite Paper which was presented to the National Assembly and Both sides, were invited to be members of that committee-.
[{One side did not attend and we proceeded around the country, hgot our idbas and took those ideas to London for a (constitutional conference.

x»t th"t constitutional conference |certain things were agreed .ns part of the democratic process.

(The Joint Select Committee, I think I neglected to say, had rcome back Hbo both the House .and Senate and then the constitutional conference|agree on a Constitution for a securely independent Belize with all its territory.
The Constitution takes the form of a Bill which is now before this Senate and it has been approved in the United Kingdom by on Order in Council and.

signed, by lier Majesty the Queen in the Privy Council.

Because the proposed terms of the Constitution for the independent Belize originated in the National Assembly, the Constitution is brought back to the National Assembly.

Che Bill describes the state of Belize and enshrines its territorial integrity.

It makes it the supreme law of the [and.


The Bill provides for fundamental freedom, citizenship, rovernmentj-General, the Executive, that is tho Cabinet, a 3i-cameral:Legislature both House and Senate, the Judiciary Ind an Advisory Council.

It also provides for the Public Service, financial and other matters, such as a Code of Conduct., National Symbols and Appointment, nnd I said that at committee stage I.propose to move the amendment.

Mr. President, I commend the Bill foi* passage.

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:/ (20) SENATOR M. ESQUIVEL: Now here we have reached a ; jpoint, Mr. President, where my remarks earlier on the National ■’Symbols become once more relevant.
That is, it is our -■position that the entering into independence, and the ■Constitution which is a necessary consequence of that, are ■■issues which by their very nature are by f-r more important [to the entire nation, regardless of their political opinion, ■than the National Symbols (important though they may be).
■[And our side considers it a gre-t pity thot the same road was ■■not taken by the Government in arriving nt its policy on ■entering into independence, because so much could have been [■avoided and so much good could have been done by pursuing [that road.

We have seen the good that has come out of the ■ liational Symbols Committee.

We have seen, Mr. President, the [good that has come out of certain dialogue hold between the ■[Government and the Opposition in the past few weeks.
[Certainly these things should convince us that there is no [better way than the way of dialogue.

So that the Minister refers to the fact that both i sides, or both Houses, were invited to bo part of a Joint ‘Committee to make recommendations for the Constitution for ■ ‘Independence, but even nt that stage, dialogue could hove [been initiated, Mr. President, in order to resolve the very [real and very great division between our two sides.
But to ■date we find ourselves confronted with a date for independence ‘ 1 [and all of the trappings attached thereto, including a 0 - Constitution, and to date, except for some informal discussions la few reeks ago, or last week I may say, there has been no (■dialogue between the parties on this most important, this paramount issue facing our nation.

So that unfortunately, Mr. President, we enter into independence divided on that ■particular issue.
In other words, we find that our position knd that of the Government on entering into independence on r'21 September are so far separated, that at this stage we fear (there is nothing that can be done to reconcile those differences.

| If I might reiterate the position once again, Hr.
President, jit is that on entering into independence, a nation which is (threatened by an unfriendly nation, which has a dispute not |of its own causing still unresolved with our neighbours, which |has a security problem, as well -is our recent past history, [that is, we.

have started too late to think about it.


Because | )f these things we feel th't the step into independence (as 11 pointed out, I believe, in the debate on the White Paper) | Is a step into the dark for our people, At that time I also (pointed out!

that there was nothing wrong with stepping into l|he dark provided we do it with the; consent of the people.

I jPhnt is if there is a risk to b-.


taken then none of us is jualified or authorized, in our opinion, to take that risk on | behalf of the people because it is not ourselves we are taking [the risk but the entire nation.

There our position has been, I for a very long time now, and’ remains, thot the people should I have an opportunity to express their will.
Since they are not ■ given the opportunity to express their will in a referendum Ion treaty olr treaties with Guatemala, then since the Government Ils determined that the 21 September is unchangeable, although I mt is not our view, then we s.iy let the people speak on I whether they wish to go into independence under the present |bircumstanc|es in a referendum.

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ji (21) I Mr. President, that policy is no surprise to anyone, It has been our policy for very many years.

I merely wish to [reiterate our sorrow that the Government did not see the wisdom, these past many years, of dialogue and of compromise, so that when Belize enters into independence whenever that day is, it is the position of Government it is the 21 September, that we could h ve entered into it a joyful people, united in that single issue nt least.
hs I say, it is a matter of deep regret on our side, Mr. President, that that |is not the case, and that therefore from our point of view, 121 September, if independence comes on that day, is not going Ito be an occasion of joy or .an occasion of unity, and I think this could have been avoided if these past many years we had J sat down and dialogued and compromised.
However, I wish to I reiterate that it's still not too late on other matters for us J to seek dialogue and compromise and I repent my hope that the ’Government will pursue that policy, Mr. President.

Thank you very much.

SENATOR G. RnMOS: Mr. President, Honourable Senators, [for the records I wish to endorse the Bill before the Honourable Senate for a Constitution for an independent state ■of Belize.

I Mr. President, it is evident th~t Belize and Belizeans gyiay of life.

fare ready for independence.


We are ready for independence.

[The evidence of maturity and the willpower to meet the challenge sof an independent Belize arc here.

We have built the foundation [of a new nation on principles of democracy, human rights and social justice.

This democratic system is already our Belizean ", E'n’ot only of the Belizean masses, but also of the Government's efforts and achievement in unifying the people of Belize.
feu will agree with me, Mr. President, that this indeed is a Remarkable'feat to unite the Belizean people.

I can say with femost confidence that no Belizean here today or a thousand fence need feel anything but pride with the steps we are about .

Every Honourable Member here today is proud, #1 |b take in passing this Bill.

Thank you.

o a .■d’l ■uhl SENATOR ±».

FULLER: I rise to give support to the Constitution of Belize which will eventually be the supreme Flaw of the land.

It is a good Constitution.


In my opinion, all vital points have been included and provision made for.

lit is a Constitution which we can all be proud of.

as suggested fct is a Constitution which we can all be proud of.

j |y Senator,Esquivel, these are security problems and stepping into the dark.

I see no such thing.

Like ray colleague Senator Eimos said, the people of Belize are ready, have been ready for |a long time but we know that th< road is now set and we are ready.
I reiterate that I give my full support to the [Constitution.

Thank you, Mr. President.

L | the Motion, before us., I would like to give my full support to [the Constitution for .an independent Belize.

SENATOR H. LEWIS: Mr. President, I rise to support Pirst of all, I would like to make very clear the apparent misleading point hare that an independent Belize would hove into the darkness or things long that line.

First of all, is my understanding that independence.
has always been the fl I I ii fl ■ ■4 •• t'-tS J .

.ta- 1 ffl Mil .r;:|I 1 .» ■ ii I ii ■I i •I ■ I ■ I•fl ■ 1 '■ .

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■■ - ■ f ■ ■ ,..... —— (22) ■ultimate objective of the People's United Party which is in.

.1 power at the moment and they have been very consistent in I this aim and objective.
Elections after elections, the People's I United Party in different forms however have made it absolutely I clear that independence was its ultimate goal, and of course 1 rnhe fact that the party has been in Government for so long is I a clear indication, I believe,, that the people themselves have 'gone into the pros and cons of independence and have finally Bedded that in fact and in truth the t is what they wanted as yell.
I therefore wish to give my full support to the Constitution for an independent Belize.

SENATOR E. X-.KAG0N: Mr. President, Honourable Senators, .1 i am for independence, but definitely not in the method being a ’used to achieve the independence we are getting.

I believe 1 .

'the people have been denied much of their rights and I think "that day by day the Belizean people are losing certain rights, j inalienable rights that they should not be losing.
Today when J ye supposed to be speaking of unity, I do not want to speak | against this unity that we should be more or less trying to I (uphold to make something better for the future for Belize.

I|.o today, I only wish to state and to have it recorded that ‘3’the Constitution of Belize has been rushed through with so -yjmuch haste that I do not think that justice has been done to it.

■|'I will only hope that the future proves that the right thing ■ fas been done.
May God help us all for the greater glory of 3 Belize.

?| JI |o wind up this debate and to reply to a few criticisms that fl.

I I SENATOR C.Ii.B.

ROGERSs Hr.

President, I just want fave been hurled here.

The longest self-governing country, perhaps there ■ I may be others but, the longest self-governing country in the yl Caribbean, let me confine it to the region, is undoubtedly ■ JBelize.

Wei have been self-governing since the 1st January, 1964.

In 196?

we obtained the Self-Government Constitution.


At that time there were many voices, Jeremiahs, saying that Belize was ■' -9 1 di ■ JyB -'“going into the unknown.

Of course the future is the unknown.

i'l gf course wp are not crystal gazers in this Senate to know what the future will bring.

In our personal lives we do not know what |he future will bring; we can go out there and get knocked down By a. car without seeing it in the crystal ball.

But Mr. Speaker, 1 I that is the stuff of which life is made.
We must launch out on | new stages of life.

Belize has reached a new stage.

All the predictions, about how bad things would go for us did not materialize E.th self-government.

The moment- the people's national leaders Begin to run the affairs of this country, the budget has multiplied twenty-folds.

The rights of which we speak, we had the Clause 6 then, fhose who are too young would not know it, but you know it, jib.
President, when the Governor used to exercise his Clause 6 I ■1 devalue the currency at his whim and fancy regardless of the fiitcry, you couldn't talk about' putting that to a referendum, they Bst did what they wanted to do.

The people of this country have lever enjoyed the freedom they now enjoy.

There is Universal j-.dult- Suffrage.

At that time you ad to vote by property, by income, a privileged few running the Suntry.
Indeed, they said the country was run from a certain club o where all the ex-patriates belonged.

Times have changed and /CO .

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li i'l (23) J so have the Belizeans.

We have gotten our new identity and we 3are all proud to be Belizeans.

Mr. Chairman, reference was made of dialogue and I Jam happy that the dialogue has begun.

But the people who kept [the dialogue all these year's were the people who belonged to [the Opposition party.
They refused membership of the Joint [Committee for the Constitution, the White Paper, to take it (around to the people to consult the people, they refused to take part in that.

They refused to participate in the discussion [of the Nev/ Constitution which we are having here today.

They (could have gone to London.

The invitation was there, passages would have been paid from the national coffers.

[They refused that.
[They refused that.

How can you dialogue with a people who reject, flatly reject, and say we won't participate.

They [refused membership to participate and to negotiate in the ]Heads of Agreement.

With that policy of rejection which they ’ were doing, everything that was proposed: take part in this, rti Bras the Opposition, take part in that; the conclusion must have • •■been that they wanted no part of responsibility.
When we fllfail to achieve concensus, when one party doesn't want to ■■ l.speak, not even to hail'you, the only thing you could do, .

> ®Mr.

President, is to govern, the Government has the • 1.responsibility; and though we may seek dialogue and though >■ j we may seek unity, it is for the other side to say they want iflto talk.

11 ll.-j L -- I .■■/ja.Bven in talking, Mr. President, .

If they don't want to talk to us, what can we do.


, it is only a hope, because I while we are talking, things are happening in Belize and the fllpeople of Belize know what is' happening.

There are terror- fll'people of Belize know what is' happening.

.

fl tactics being used by people who are associated with the We would hope that in tie words of the B Opposition I party.
[communique that was issued for adhering to the democratic (process and living under the Constitution, this present Constitution that we are debating hero today, that people [who aspire to become leaders will do so through the Constitution.

Don't try to over throw a Government by undemocratic practices find unconstitutional measures: that is breaking the Constitution; and these things that are happening, people know how they are connected.
So, Mr. President, I too would like to express my sorrow and deep regret that the Opposition did not see until [■now to begin to dialogue with us.

We had, during the Heads of Agreement, negotiations before it began, and we invited the Opposition to come to negotiate with us.

We had already offered ill these things.

Let us examine the system.

Let us set up a committee.

We would have had a head start.

It is not the fault of the Government that there was no dialogue then.
I am saying these things not to rehearse and to re-hash old enmities land to keep it alive, but to keep the records straight, Mr. President.

Mhat's all.

I am hoping that they will turn to this new page hand stick to it for dialogue because to come hero and criticize [■'that there is no unity, when the people who are withholding unity, pe know we are here; they are the ones who are withholding unity.

Lit is like, we and Guatemala.

Guatemala can drop her claim anytime [when she want to drop it.
It's not us who are keeping the claim Elive.

Same with unity, national unity, in this country.

This Government has been one of the Government that is willing to bend over backwards to achieve unity.

How can you achieve it with Kpeople who.don't want to talk.

People who don't want follow what 11 think their own follower,s want to do, to try to encourage the [[people to boycott independence, and then you want unity?

/To >?■ Lj .

1 • ■ )7:' * ■ '■ ■ fl : J ■ ■ y Ofc Is - fl I 1- i I! '

[I I I h I!
[I I I h I!

5 h J I (24) In■To appeal to people, this can lead, this can escalate to j national tragedies, Mr. President and .Members of the Senate.

| If this offer, if this rhetoric is genuine and sincere, let 1 us desist from at a time when the people should celebrate and I if they want to celebrate of their own accord and I know many I ^embers of the Opposition who would love to celebrate, but <1 ' mPmThOV'C?
r\-P 4" Vi D nn es 4 4-4 r-i itV> r\ t.t ai i 1 z*l 1 atta 4- z-x z-» z-x H aM-ziciA-a Vxn + because their leaders are telling them to boycott the ■ celebrations, they have great fear.

This issue will divide .them, politically, because I think' it is only for a political H'..reason that it is being done.

The issues and the events that rare taking place in our country, today, are bigger than political gains.

Let us not try to get political gains out [of this.
Let us try to adopt a Constitution which provides for the protection of the rights of all our citizens which ■ J guarantees fair-play more than we've ever had it in our history.

jA people with such a long colonial history, Mr. President, ■ 1 should be glad for the day of freedom.

?come and tell us I am for independence, j independence now.

1 It is like the man who said, 1'Where you going to put him.

That, Mr. Speaker, is spurious argument.

I no want dead, but.

I no want live.


..nd it is no use to but I do not want So, Mr. President and Members of the Senate, let Iras be realistic.

Let us understand what unity means.

Unity We can't always have our ways, we have to I beans all bf us.

... __ .

___ „........... ... ■~, ... __ - -- [give up a little something, and we are asking the Opposition 'to give up that something; to turn to a new page; to keep Bftalking and not to reject their responsibilities because the .
■ .^(Government- has to govern.

We would like to take you along, ■ !but if you' are using delaying tactics to keep the people of .

I [this country from freedom by making these kinds of statements : i this for by calling on people to boycott the celebrations, then ■Wyour words are one thinv but your deeds are another.

•' ■ ■ I commend the passage of this Bill.

MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question |is that a Bill for a Constitution for an independent state lof Belize be read a Second Time.
|| [kindly say no.

I think the ayes have it.

no.

All those in favour, kindly say aye; those against, • ■ * ■' ?

R* ' .j./I |prders, committed to a Committee of the Whole Senate.

1 Bill read a Second Time and, pursuant to Standing 3.

Control of Public Meetings and Public Processions (Amendment) Bill, 1981 :■ ■ HON.

C.L.B.

itOeL’RS (Minister of Home Affairs): | |Mr.

President, I an Ordinance to amend the.


Control of Public Meetings and I rise to mov-... the Second Reading of a Bill for [Public Processions Ordinance 1967 (Ko.

14 of 1967) of the Laws.

E -•I £ For a long time, Mr. President, the Government has j“__ .. l._, ‘ ~ - ^.considered that the existing law for the control of public ^meetings and public processions is inadequate.

Draft legislation |to correct the deficiencies of the law has been considered for J|a number of years.
The Bill now before the Senate proposes Mrbnlv amendments which are necessary to protect the public safety.

•■■•Q ' 'll ---1 ■vl yf /The ... (■••/I & I :■ : | • '■ ■ !
I I ■■J - ■ (25) lihe events of the last six months beginning in March made it ^crystal clear, not only to the Government, but to the large ■number of law-abiding citizens in the country that steps must ■be taken to give the police such powers as is absolutely ■'necessary to carry out its responsibility for maintaining law ■and order and for ensuring public safety.

The behavior of •■certain lawless elements of the society have pointed directly ■to the shortcomings in 'the law.
The actions of these persons ■had shown the areas where the law is deficient.

And so it ■.has been easy to provide for the correction of the deficiencies ■in the areas which are now covered by the Bill.

Mr. President, the licence previously enjoyed by ■■those who would use the peaceful means of public meetings and 1 public processions as mechanisms for the overthrow of the ■legally elected Government will no longer be available to them.
a So we see that the protestations ibou( democracy and personal 1 liberty are only a farce which is used to cover up the illegal ■[actions of this very small minority. ''

.

It has been necessary Ito give authority to the police to set conditions for the [holding of meetings and processions including where they are I to be held, for how long, and what time they must come to an 'end.

There is nothing in this Bill that goes beyond what is hecessary at this time to deal with the situation at hand.
Me have witnessed the spectacle of meetings beginning at Midnight, Mr. President; of meetings turning into illegal roublic processions which have led to tie destruction of property; [threat to the life and safety of the citizen and his property.

|We have had the situation whs-rc a meeting is now more than a [public nuisance.

Mr. President, the Government has been forced Ito act in the public interest, a Government is elected to —l an(j -this Government is not about to abdicate its ^responsibility.
We have, no doubt, that the vast majority iiOf good Belizeans will support the taking of this action.

■[Those who are offended, those who consider that the police Tare acting beyond their powers, those who are aggrieved, have J the courts to resort to.

This is the way the democratic system ■ operates.

i1 govern I I it i V ‘I jl !

MR. PRESIDENT: It is now twelve o'clock when we should adjourn.
Can I get a consensus from Senators if we should continue for another twenty minutes or so or adjourn how and resume at two o'clock.

I think that we should continue, Mr. President, seeing the stage we have reached on the Order Paper.

SENATOR C.L.3.

ROGERS ■'!

;MR. PRESIDENT: It's nearly finished.

Shall we continue?

it's nearly finished.

MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. PRESIDENT: We continue then.

We proceed.

We continue then.

hr.

President, ‘SENATOR 1'1.

ES-jUIVLL: Ar.


President, I've listened to fche remarks of the Minister in introducing this Bill and it all sounds very innocent, but one must wonder at some of the provisions Of this Bill, and why it is being introduced at this time when there is already in effect a Statutory Instrument which gives the police complete control over public meetings and processions.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the provision of the proposed Constitution that matters dealing with public safety and human rights, that is, that part of the Constitution that says that any laws in existence before Independence Day cannot be amended for five years.

I'm wondering if that isihe reason for the timing of -I' E I Aii •'X I ■i .

j ' i > 1 ■no IrL'I I ■ ■ .

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"■ > ... .


i. I- :|| ■ I i r V ■if I ;i (26) this Bill, Mr. President, for there are certain particular sections I would like to direct some remarks at which I find a bit curious.

So If I may take them in the order in which they come, not necessariljr their importance.

On page 5 of the Bill, Section 7, subsection 8, 1; it says that all processions shall cease by seven o'clock in lithe evening.
It has always been the policy to set the time I when public processions must begin and one wonders what is ■ I the point of adding in here that they shall cease at seven <o'clock.
The police have, at the moment, full power to I grant permits to have a public procession as well as full I power to put conditions on such a procession and seven o'clock Kit seems to me, I can't think of any particular circumstances 1 at the moment, but it seems to me, might well be an 1 unreasonably early hour because I can remember in the past, Knot in the recent past, but say in the 1974 elections, j pre-election rallies by both political parties being held, , if I can remember rightly, up to eight o'clock at night, ; and it seems to me that it's one thing to talk about midnight, j there's something magical about that hour, but seven o'clock H or nine o'clock, it,'s all the same, and I wonder if there is J "3 : any real logic behind putting: the hour of seven o'clock there.
But that is a small matter, hr.

President.

I I intentions, and that is this section which says that .Section 14 which can be used with very very ill effects on those against whom it is used, by anyone of ill will or bad I also noticed th-t there is a provision under "no ■public meeting may be conducted in such a manner as to result in a public procession, and if the public meeting is conducted ■ in such a manner that such a procession originates or takes •place etc.

etc."
etc."

It seems to me, Mr. President, that to say J?that a public meeting is conducted in such a manner that Kas a result certain things have happened?

Presumably this •1 is completely up to the police to decide if it has been .. ■ c-a *1 ■^conducted in such a manner.
Surely if we're going to a; legislatejwe should try to be as concrete as we can and to ■ i K not leave: room for violation of the intent of the Bill, or i a) for abuse,of the powers conferred by this Bill, and I think al ■’i-a section such as Section 1-4 certainly lends itself to abuse hi iby those in authority.

hl • Another curious part in Section.

The Honourable ■•Minister has said that this legislation has been made ■necessary largely because of the activities of a certain ■ minority of people.
I see here that there is reference to ■.nationals' or residents addressing public meetings, or taking i part in public processions.

I am at a loss, Mr. President, •pas to what is the reason for this section in the Bill.

I •'3 •.•am not aware that there are any insidious foreigners jumping Kup on public rostrums .conducting public meetings or taking ■part in public processions, which I presume are defined as ■Apolitical!

procession.
procession.

So that I find it extremely curious, Stand I'd be interested to hear a little bit more about that.

StjYou know,: if we are legislating for glaring loopholes in the ■••law that have been made visible due to the activities of the 'I., last six months.

I would really like.

to.

find out who are Rthese foreigners that all of a sudden we-find that we have to ■ protect ourselves against them by this legislation.

1 'I ■ '31 '1 .
1 'I ■ '31 '1 .

j ■ V' ' (27) 4| Now, the one which concerns mo most is paragraph j.6 that is governing the use of amplifying systems, loud ■speakers, because on one hand there is provision in the parent ■ordinance that in order to have a public meeting at a ■lesignated spot, example the Court House wharf, one need only «ive notice to the police in sufficient time.
This Bill Already says that having received notice the police can then ■put certain conditions on your meeting, but all of that is a ■Meaningless right of the people, if in Section 16 it is' saying What you need a permit to have an amplifier or loud-speaker T.o conduct the meeting.
So on the one hand the parent body ■says you have a right to conduct a public meeting in a ■ .designated spot, provided you have informed the police, and -■you meet with certain conditions they have set, but you have ■to right to address such a public meeting through a loud­ speaker.
So that while we are saying that a political party Mhas a right to conduct a public meeting nt a designated spot, lit has no right to be heard by the people that are being ■addressed; '■speaker to address the people, ■fuplicity here, Mr. President.

you must first apply for a permit to use a loud- There is a certain degree of Either you have a right to o laiidress the people in public or you do not hnve a right.
io not say you have a right to address the public in designated spots, provided we meet certain arrangements, and then say, ibwever, you do not have a rigjht to address them over a loud­ speaker; you must apply for a permit rind it is completely lap to the officer to whom you apply, the appropriate officer it says here, whether or not he wild, give you a permit.
I Have heard, Mr. President, of situations in the island nation of Grenada where the Opposition also enjoys this right to 7 have a public meeting, but when they attempt to address the .

/public, well, they didn't even bother with legislation, they ■ ' .

?Joerely cut off; their electrical supply.

But .there seems to So 7jte a similarity in intent if not in procedure• here, a- fr.

President and for the life- of me I can't understand why is Section 16 needs to be so .all-embracing.
And if the ; Sorry is that they might be a public nuisance, there is a special mention made of churches and schools etc.

If the | jerry is that such loud-speakers will be a. nuisance to the j public how is it that loud-speakers by political parties may ..ta pose a nuisance to the public but loud-speakers used by other I find an inconsistency ■' ■-lather people should also be limited.

nJ J?

;-: J fl people would not pose such a threat.

* ' .where, Mr. President.

J’ There, Mr. President.


Not th t I’m suggesting-that these Jther people should also be limited.

It is bad enough that politicians are being limited, but I have heard of cases where ■e.ople have complained to the police time and tine again at ■fee nuisance caused by loud-speakers at the MCG Grounds on ■/Sundays during) church hour.

So there have been actual complaints jabout this nuisance, Mr. President, but there's no legislation ':‘7: ' ' ' Ir Is Jpga-inst that.
, I am not aware'of public protest of nuisances - .

■.Ilieing caused by public meetings at the Court House wharf for ' |sxample.

However, there is legislation being introduced to ■ ■■;■'■"control that.

That I cannot accept, hr.

President, that the iw-i^jeason for Section 16 is any worry over .a public nuisance but AAjBmther an attempt to be able to turn on and off the voice of nt-JBhe Opposition) at the whim of those in authority, and therefore pf' ;i;.
find that section most obnoxious that I cannot support it, ■S'.

I President.

- Ifc ■■ 7 i ' r h i-!

JIt ■■I 1 ■' !.

: !

| ■ ;i| I j ■Jh' I ’ll ■ ili I l fe: !

- !

!

1 .
i >■- ■ ■■' f 1 1 (28) 1 You hear many nice remarks about the Government "Vou hear many nice remarks about the Government fltending backwards in order to achieve unity, -nd how it is ■the Opposition that is obstructing it, Mr. President, but ■the Opposition has no authority or power to pass legislation, the Opposition that is obstructing it It has flit has no power to move against citizens through the forces ■of law and order and therefore we find it an unacceptable ^statement, that is the Opposition which is causing trouble in this country, which is obstructing it -nd preventing unity.
■.Remarks have been made ths-t we have been appointed to or invited to this committee or th-t or to attend this conference or that, but to attend a conference or sit on ?.

committee, Mr. President, is not the same as dialogue.

Dialogue means [that two parties sit down and discuss their common differences )ind try solutions and ways to arrive- at unity.
It does not mean entering into a committee or a session or a negociation .J where the the agenda has already been sot and where what is rJ 1to be said has already been fixed and where the policy is ■[already decided.

That is not dialogue, Mr. President.

And flftherefore we insist that a distinction must be made between 'MWfthe two.
When we talk about di-logue wo mean that the two [parties sit down with open minds ready to listen to the [point of view of the other and to compromise- «xni3ter ..earlier on- remarked about the Gm'ciJiroent compromising in the •case of the national symbols -rd we expect never to compromise, -lit must always be the Government.

On that very matter, fl fir.

President, it is the Opposition which compromised on every -fl single thing except on the matter of the flag in regard to '' the national symbols.
So to s-y that we -re not willing to ■ - compromise also is unacceptable to us.

We arc always willing to compromise but it must be genuine compromise on both sides.

We must both recognize our positions.

We .must both be willing to recognize whatever faults may exist and w must both be filling to try to arrive at consensus.

'.

if b 1 -I s ci fl fl re ■ fl .... fl r i I Thank you very much, nr.

President.

■ ; SENATOR H. LEWIS; hr.


President, I rise to support us, ■yflthe'Bi11 before us, that is the control of public meetings.

i fl T”l would like to give ray support to it and I'd like to make fa few comments.

: -fl Lil .

.I am in agreement with the Bill for as far as the i [participation of non-nation?Is are concerned, because without (calling names, Mr. President, I have had th?
privilege of [listening to a number of meetings of the Opposition and this r.is not necessarily UDP because youh'.ve other opposition groups retool You' have the BAM and the wAl-l and what not.

«nd there Kis a tendency for some reason or the other, for non-nntionals ■to be drawn towards the opposition.

Why I don't know.

I've ■never researched that.

And I believe, therefore, that the ^intentions in this Bill arc very genuine, [that • .

——--- — ' .1 sincerely believe , .


And I make reference to Point 15.or subsection 15- ■ ■as regards 16, Mr. President, I have personally lived lin Belize; City for five years -nd of course you know that, [Hr.
President, when I was associ'tod in some form with the [Belize City Council and I have listened, with some dismay to ^announcements made by (without calling, names again) a member [of the Civic and I believe ho used that opportunity, he abused [the opportunity because there was no provisions of any sort /• • ccnir’.l ... t ■' I; 1 •I (29) to control such announcement or procession or whatever name you might apply to it.

So I also wont to say, Mr. President, that this is a very good suggestion.
Nov; what strikes me as very funny, Mr. President land Senators, is that the Opposition is constantly opposing hll Bills whether they are good or not and this smacks in my mind because it is a very dangerous thing.

First of all, lit gives me the impression th: t if and when the Opposition !

becomes Government or rules our day of life as it were, that they are going to be extremely vindictive, bean my leaving the country as a Belizean.
It might even I believe that ‘ -we should look at things in their true perspective not just opposing for the sake of opposing, and when it comes to [dialogue or compromise I want to believe that we compromise by being mature in our outlook and that we go to the conference table as i’> were with a clear conscience, that is, if a thing •is genuinely good let us say that it is good and let us give lit a try because it is only by making errors that we are going Ito progress in the final analysis.
So, Mr. President, without nuch ado, I want to give my full support to the Bill.

> J SENATOR G. RiiMOS: Mr. President, Honourable Senators, Lit is my opinion that Government in initiating this Bill on .Public Meetings and Public Processions is attempting to resolve [two important competing values, und one, that is, freedom [of assembly.

And two, that of maintaining public order, hie must not pretend that the task of balancing these competing lvalues is an easy one.

However, it is the responsibility of .


fjlffoverninent to act and protect the interest of the public.

■.

®|lhe public is looking forward to bo protected from hooliganism.

The events!of the recent past hove shown that the public needs [to be protected from the overt ;nd covert acts of irresponsible [elements opposing Government.
What is important, Mr. President, .jSjis that the Government has not over-reacted, nor h^s “’Government failed to act under these disturbing circumstances cwhich have!dictated this shift in balancing these competing MB'®values of freedom of assembly and the maintenance of public order.

Mr. President, a wise political philosopher once said, .... ■ j think this.

is a very a your freedom ends where my none begins.
jfimportant quotation to remember when we are discussing freedom |of assembly and maintenance of public order.

In clear ordinary ^language from the quotation I made awhile ago, it is being [suggested that there are limitations to the freedom of assembly !

but the limitations should be in the interest of the public.

KI Mr. President.

I fully support this Bill because it Bis in the interest of the public.

It is in the interest of lithe public on a whole.


SENATOR E. nBAGON: Mr. President, Honourable Senators, la great man once said freedom isn't free.

It cannot be bought for sold.

It must be earned with hard work and dedication and [above all, it must be preserved because in this world tyrants “and dictators abound.

The freedom of thought and expression is [one of the most vital elements when speaking about freedom.

I am aware that this ordinance that seeks to amend the Control ! '

.

relic .
.

relic .

■■ ■„ 1I I II I. a (30) : 1 of Public Meetings and Public Processions Ordinance 1967 you I have some justification, but I ■•.m afraid that behind all j this, there is a dangerous attempt to silence the voice of -1 any who speaks against the Government or who wishes to speak '•< against the Government in the- future to come even if this | intention is not there, the danger is there.

I've always I come to this place in the mind that the freedom of the people I need to be looked after.
I've always felt that the lenders | in our country usually put politics above everything and 1 everytime I come here I leave more or less frustrated with I the same mind that something somehow is wrong, that we are | really not working to preserve the freedom of the people, J the very people we are responsible to.

I looked, as I said, that the freedom of thought I and expression is so much a necessary thin;."

that whosoever J I or whatever seems to want to destroy it or to weaken it must be pointed out.
I believe that nt this stage I can say that by passing the amendment to this ordinance- we ore trying in some way or the other to limit the freedom of the Belizean people.

We have always used the- methods that we know best.

■ The peaceful method of trying to break up public meetings, processions.

Isn't it better than guns and bullets?

I believe that this is the best method.

But here in this ' Control of Public Meetings and Public Processions, I find ■ that the people are intimidated.
Here the people are being .

intimidated that probably in the near future no one will want to have a public meeting; no one will want to join a protest : march and isn't this the best way we ertn demonstrate that we /are not for something or that we arc for'something?

But this ■ to me is doing the opposite.

It is trying to destroy what we /.have, the!

freedom of speech.

The best thin?

: we have in this country.


If we prefer bullets and guns then that’s what 4 probably the country will get into in the future.

This, I ■i hope will never happen.


j We have Section 16, subsection 5 and it says "Any person who organizes, holds, speaks nt or takes part in a public meeting or public procession at which a noisy instrument i is used without a permit issued by the appropriate officer ' •] or in violation of any condition subject to which it is issued ■tor and so on and so on, would be guilty."
Imagine, somebody ■tewith a mike speaking to a crowd of people, the people not Eleven knowing that this man has a. permit and they themselves ■•■that they!

are running the risk according to this they will be ■guilty of; an offence.

I think t'r.-t something must be done more a-than this, ns I said, the-re might be justification in passing IftSuch an amendment,but we must look deeper into this.
According glto this, it seems that a footbill game is more important than ■politics-, j -~7 ■s‘3 , It says in Section 16 "any person who wishes to ['/publicize the holding of any public .meeting or public procession, Bit doesn't mention anything else except public meeting and ’•public procession, with ?.ny noisy instrument or to use any such ■instrument at any public meeting or procession shall at least Etwenty-four hours before the hour at which it is proposed to ^commence,.
the meeting or procession a nd.before any such instrument is used for the said purpose apply to the -appropriate officer Efor a permit to use such noisy instrument and so on and so on."

|for a permit to use such noisy instrument and 1 /Th- t .. .

■ ■i I __ x I ■ ?

■ (51) That means anybody who wants to talk about or announce football games or any other propaganda can do so, but as long as it is politics, it cannot be done, What's wrong?
dports, football games and other propaganda arc more important than politics?

:,I believe that politics is essential to every country, especially an independent country.
Section 2, subsection 2 of Section 16 "the appropriate officer may if he considers that the grant of a permit in terms of subsection 1 will not inconvenience the public or the neighbourhood which it is proposed to use it issue a permit for the use of a particular noisy instrument stipulating such condition as to the time and route as ho considers necessary.

The refusal of the appropriate officer to issue such a permit shall be final.

One man to decide what the route will be, whether you can do it or not.
I believe that, as I said, at the beginning that we Belizeans are day by day losing the inalienable rights that we have and if we cannot look into this, if we cannot be sincere to the people then I don't know where we are going, Nicaragua or Salvador, Guatemala.

I wish it never happens and that is why when I come here I come with the mind that all I can do is to express what I feel that we are losing.

I might be wrong but those are my sincere thoughts.

Thank you.

SENATOR C.L.B.


ROGERS; Mr. President, I think that j the Bill before us is clear if wo read the Bill.

All this talk about freedom and how unlimited it is and absolute it is, •is not real; all our freedom is related to the other man's ■freedom.

Nobody can claim that they have freedom to take •away your freedom, hr.

President, or anyone elses freedom.

jAnytime you have that freedom that is not freedom because other people have freedom too.

■know what we have been experiencing.


V.'e have been experiencing v.'e hove been experiencing .

a man called Shubu in Belize City who rocs around in the early ’[hours of the daylight and he says he represents a certain i party and he has been waking up people, and how come they All of us who live in Belize ■haven't heard that nuisance, how come they haven't heard people [complaining against it.

Is it only one kind, of people they hear complain?


Five o'clock in the morning, twelve o'clock [at night, they wake up people.

The courts are not free from fit, the judiciary which we claim is independent and can carry [on trials without being molested, they are not free from it.

In use it, they brought the speakers up to intimidate, to cause i the middle of the day nt the public buildings they not only |:a disruption of the service out there.
These things arise ,®)Ut of the hard facts of experience and all of you in this •Senate know that this happened in Belize City.

That it is , ■because they,had abused freedom and took away other people's •freedom and disrupted other places, that's the kind of freedom swe want in Belize?

That the citizens can stop the courts from •••.wiperating?

Is that the kind of freedom?

(interruptions) l.The radio can't be worse when you 'want to get on'the radio.

Why you want [to get on?


Must because the radio is good.

■Mr.

President, a bit of trivia was said today about how can gwe compare, this must be trivia to compare the radio.

The | radio you turn it down as you like; You could play the radio './•Sow you want, man, you regulate i1 to your taste, your freedom.

__ -J i !

;ii i ’ i: I !l § il.

i'i'!

■ il,1 ■ J!


lij ■ (32) The Senator on the other side mentioned that the laws in existence today cannot be amended before five years rind wondered whether that is why we are There is no intention about it.

In fact, that provision is only to give the people time.

It will be done even tefore five years, but ve give them up to that in case they have difficulty, in case they have short staff and they can't meet it if they had one year, that’s all why th^t is in the Constitution.
Hr.

President, all this was discussed in London and a.s I said, they could have been there to know how we arrive at these things,.

Ue are trying to prevent people from taking away other people's freedom and that is why this law is brought to the Senate today,.

I Jare talking here about public meetings, any public meeting.

lAnd it says "no public meeting", and nobody wants to silence ■the Opposition, rir.
President, or that would have been in The mention has been made of paragraph 14 and we •' I there to have no public meeting.

i.ll it is doing is setting It applies to the the ground rules for all of us to play by.

People's United Party, it applies to the United Democratic Party, it applies to parties that are not yet in existence, it applies to some of the front organizations of the UDP, the BAM, the WAM and all of them.

All this applies that we must regulate things,.


You can't have unlimited freedom and do what you like to stifle other people.

So paragraph 14 is putting the responsibility on the- organizer..

I agree with Senator Lewis that you should look at things in their true perspective and not opposing for the sake of opposing.

What Section 14 seeks to do is to set the ground rules for all of us to play by, UDP, PUP.
(interruption) No, we have a law Lfor people like that, and the people who encourage them; : that is what we have a law for -- the people who encourage that ■ 'I , sort of thing.

You can't cone in and say we are the ones who want freedom for everybody and at the sure time you are trampling on other people's freedom - the courts.

You hold meetings at midnight, as we talked about; th-'t can't be the kind of Z freedom we want.

We want in Belize freedom that will not 'trample other people's freedom.
When I exercise my freedom, I must be careful that I am not trampling other people's freedom; if so, that is not freedom.

There was also talk about dialogue.

I am not going fto dwell on this, but just to say that what I meant when I : said - my.

remarks on my previoys Motion w'js that if you are ;not willing .....the Opposition has nothing to do; as you rightly say, it can't legislate; but it must be willing to take part in governmental functions; it has some function.
EAnd if you are not willing to take the only, thing that you ; have to do - and I'm using the donator's words - if the only ; thing you have to do is to serve on a Joint Select Committee and you don't want to serve on it, what can we do?

If the only ■ thing you have to do is to serve on the Cpnstititional Talks, the Constitutional Conference, I am talking about, and you ■ think you could read into that, that you were unable to dialogue.

That's all we are pointing out.


■ ..J I : si & uf-l ■'tl ■'1 - - ■: Mr. President, I commend the Dill for passage.

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'.‘ill' • ; J (33) »>iR.

PxiBSIDMl: Honourable Senators, the Question is that a Bill for an Ordinance to amend the Control of Public Meetings and Public Processions Ordinance 1967 (Wo.

14 of 11967) of the Laws be read a Second lime.

All those in favour, kindly say aye; those against, kindly say no.

I think the ayes have it.


Bill read a Second Time and, pursuant to Standing Order, committed to a committee of the Whole Senate.

IV COMMITTEE OF ILL WHOLE U.^NATr.

ON BILLJ / In the Committee J I®.

PRESIDENT in the Chair.

1.

Land Utilization Bill, 1981 Clauses 1 to 18 agreed to.

Bill to be reported back to the Senate without amendment.

2.

Belize Constitution Bill.

1981 The Preamble agreed to.

Clauses 1 to 131 agreed to.


Delete Clauses 132 and 133 and add the following, new clauses 132 to 142 as follows;- CHAPTER XI Transitional Provisions Interpre tation for this Chapter.

The Con­ stitution- transitions 1 powers.

132.

In this Chapter - "the Constitution Ordinance" means the British Honduras Constitution Ordinance 1963 i "the Letters latent" means the Belize Letters Patent 1964 to 1979- 133.
The Governor (as defined for the purposes of the Letters Patent) c.cting after consultation with the Premier (as so defined) may at any time nfter this section comes into operation exercise any of the powers conferred on the Governor-General by section 134 of this Constitution to such extent as may be necessary or expedient to enable the Constitution to function as from Independence Day.

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r,.- L ■ Existing laws.

(34) 134.


(1) Subject to the provisions of this Chapter, the existing laws shall, notwithstanding the revocation of the Letters Patent and the Constitution Ordinance, continue in force on and •~.fter Independence Day and shall then have effect ns if they hud been made in pursuance of this Constitution, but they shall be construed with such modifications, adaptations, qualifications and exceptions as may be necessary to bring them into conformity with this Constitution.
(2) Where any matter that falls to be prescribed or otherwise provided for under this Constitution by the national Assembly or by any other authority or person is pres­ cribed or provided for by or under any existing law (including any amendment to any such law made under this section), that prescription or provision shall, as from Independence Day, have effect (with such modifications, adaptations, qualifications and exceptions as may be necessary to bring it into conformity with this Constitution ■ is if it h id been made under this Constitution by the National Assembly or, as the case may require, by the other authority or person!
(3) The Governor-General may, by order published in the Gazette, within twelve months after Independence Day, make such amendments to any existing law (other than this Constitution) ns may be necessary or expedient for bringing that lav/ into conformity with the provisions of this Constitution or otherwise for giving effect or enabling effect to be given to those provisions.
(4) ->n order made under this section may b-..- amended or revoked by the : „tion?l ...ssembly or, in relation to ny existing law affected- thereby, by .ny other authority having power to amend; iv.-peal or revoke that existing law.

(5) The- provisions of this section shall be without prejudice to any powers conferred by this Constitution or by any other law upon any person or authority to mike provision for any matter, including the amendment or repeal of any existing law.

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■ ill I ; i [mI) p!H ■ill ■ First Governor- General .

Ministers.

(35) (6) In this section, the expression "existing law" means any «ct of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, Order of Her Majesty in Council, Ordinance, rule, regulation, order or other instrument having effect as part of the law, of Belize immediately before Independence Day (including any such law made before that day and coming into operation on or after that day).
135- (1) Ker Majesty may before Independence Day appoint the first Governor-General from among persons who qualify in accordance with section 30 of this Constitution to become citizens of Belize on Independence Day.

(2) Any such appointment shall take effect ns from Independence Day, and the person so appointed shall hold office in accordance with section 30 of this Constitution.

136.
136.

(1) The person who, immediately before Independence Day, holds the office of Premier under the Letters Patent shall, as from that day, hold office ns Prime Minister as if he had been appointed thereto under section 37 of this Constitution.

(2) The persons who, immediately before Independence Day, hold office as Ministers (other than the Premier) under' the Letters Patent shall, as from that day, hold the like offices as if they had been appointed thereto, under section 40 of this Constitution.
(3) >ny person holding the office of Prime Minister or other Minister by virtue of subsections (1) and (2) of this section who, immediately before Independence Day, was under the Letters Potent assigned responsibility for uny business or department of government shall, as from that day, be deemtd to have been assigned res­ ponsibility for that business or department under section 41 of this Constitution.
(4) Any 'person holding the office of Prime Minister or other Minister by virtue of subsections (1) and (2) of this section shall be deemed to have satisfied the requirements of section 46 of this Constitution.

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|ji| ■ I ■ ■ ill h i - ' I ..-y ■ ■ '1 ■ J 1 I1 : K' b I.. National Assembly.

i l • i' p I 1 ■ i 1 - I; 11 i ’ ■’ ■ I - Ili - (56) 157.
(1) The persons who, immediately before Independence Day, are members of the former House of Representatives shall, as from that day, be deemed to have been elected in pursuance of section 56(1) of this Constitution in the respective electoral divisions corresponding to the electoral divisions by which- they were returned to the former House of Representatives, and shall hold their seats in the House of Representatives in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution,.
(2) The persons who, immediately before Independence Day, are members of the former Senate, having been appointed as such under paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of section 9(2) of the Constitution Ordinance, shall, as from Independence Day, be deemed to have been appointed to the Senate in pursuance of paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) respectively of section 61(2) of this Constitution, and shall hold their seats in the Senate in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution.
(5) The persons deemed to be elected to the House of Representatives or to be appointed to the Senate by virtue of subsections (1) and (2) of this section shall be deemed to have satisfied the requirements of section 71 of this Constitution.
(4) The persons whom immediately before Independence Day, are the Speaker and Deputy Speaker of the former House of Representatives and the President -nd Vice-President of the former Senate shell, as from Independence Day, be deemed to have been elected respectively as Speaker and Deputy Speaker of the House of Representatives and President and Vice-President of the Senate in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution and shall hold office in accordance with those provisions.
(5) The person who, immediately before Independence Day, is the Leader of the Opposition in the former House of Representatives shall, as from that day, be deemed to have been appointed as Lender of the Opposition in pursuance of section 47 of this Constitution, and sh-.ll hold office as such in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution.
/(•■) ... i ■ I t t IK-- I (57) (6) The Standing Orders of the former House of Representatives and of the former Senate as in force immediately before Independence Day shall, until it is otherwise provided under section 70 of this Constitution, be the standing Orders respectively of the House of Representatives and of the Senate, but they shall be construed with such modifications, adaptations, qualifications and exceptions as may be necessary to bring them into conformity with this Constitution.
(7) notwithstanding anything in section 84(2) of the Constitution (but subject to subsection (5) of that section), the National Assembly shall, unless soon- r dissolved, stand dissolved on 50th November 1984 (that is io say, five years from the date when the two Houses of the former National Assembly first met after the lost dissolution of that Assembly under the- Constitution Ordinance).
(8) In this section, the expressions "former National Assembly", "former House of Representatives", and "former Senate" mean respectively the National Assembly, House of Representatives, and Senate established by the Constitution Ordinance.

158.

Subject to the provisions of this Constitution every person who immediately before Independence Day holds or is acting in a public office under the Letters Patent or the Constitution Ordinance shall, as from th-‘t day, continue to hold or act in that office or.
wo corresponding office established by this Constitution as if he had been appointed thereto in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution and as if he had taken any oath required by this Constitution or any other law: Provided that any person who under the Letters Patent, the Constitution Ordinance or any other law in force immediately before Independence Day would have been required to vacate his office at the expiration of any period shall, unless earlier removed in accordance with this Constitution, vacate his office at the expiration of that period.
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I Fi M = In/ , 1 Existing public officers.

'1 ■ ■ IF ' 'fa B ■ I: , Supreme Court and Court of Appeal.

Alteration 1 of this Chapter.

(38) 139.

(1) Subject to the provisions of this Constitution, the Supreme Court shall on and after Independence Day have all the powers which immediately before that day are vested in the former Supreme Court.
(2) All proceedings that, immediately before Independence Day, are pending before the former Supreme Court may be continued and concluded on and after that day before the Supreme Court.

(3) Any decision given before Independence Day by the former Supreme Court shall for the purposes of its enforcement or of any appeal there­ from.

have effect on and after that day ns if it were a decision of the Supreme Court.
(4) ^ny appeals from Belize that, immediately before Independence Day, uro pending before the former Court of Appeal may be continued and concluded on and after that day before the Court of Appeal.

, (5) Any decision given before Independence Day by the former Court of Appeal shall for the purposes of its enforcement or of any appeal therefrom hove effect on and after that day as if it were a decision of the Court of Appeal.
(6) In this section - "the former Supreme Court" means the Supreme Court established by the Constitution Ordinance; "the former Court of Appeal" means the Court of Appeal established by the Court of Appeal Ordinance 1967.

140.

(1) The National Assembly may alter any of the provisions of this chapter, other than those referred to in.subsection (2) of this section, in th-.

manner specified in section 69(4) of this Constitution.
(2) The National Assembly may alter this section, subsections (1), (4) and (7) of section 137, section 138 and section 139 of this Constitution in the manner specified in subsections (3) and (5) of section 69 of this Constitution.

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5 ■ ■ h 1 ■"i (39) (3) Subsections (7) and (8) of section 69 of this Constitution shall pply for the purpose of construing references in this section to nnv provision of this Chapter and to the alteration of any such provision as they apply £>r the purpose of construing references in section 69 of this Constitution o.nd in Schedule 2 hereto to any provision of this Constitution and to the alteration of any such provision!

CruiPTLR XII Repeal and Date of Commencement I Commencement.

141.
141.

This Constitution shall come into operation on Independence Day.

Provided that sections 133 and 135 of this Constitution shall come into operation forthwith.

Revocations.

142'.

The Ordinance set out in Schedule 4 are revoked with effect from Independence Day'.

Schedules 1 to 4 agreed to.

Bill to be reported back to the Senate with amendments.

3.

Control of Public Meetings and Public Processions (.amendment) Bill.

1981 Clauses 1 to 16 ’.greed to.


Bill to be reported back to the Senate without amendment.

MR. PRESIDENT resumed the Chair.

1.

Land Utilization Bill, 1981 SENATOR C.L.3.

ROGERS (Minister of Home affairs): Mr. President, I beg to report that the Bill for the Land Utilization Ordinance to provide for measures to govern the use and development of land and to introduce measures for conservation of land and watersheds, has been considered by the Senate and passed without amendment.
I move the Third Reading.

MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question is that the Land Utilization Bill, 1981 be read a Third Time.

All those in favour, kindly say aye; those against, kindly say no.

I think the ayes have it.

Bill read a Third Time.

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■ ■ * i ■ I ■1/ (40) 2.

Belize Constitution Bill, 1981 SENATOR C.L.B.


1(001.01 (Minister of Home Affairs): Mr. President, I beg to report that the Belize Constitution Bill, 1981, has been considered by the Senate and I beg that the Bill be read a Third Time and passed with amendment.

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PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question is that the Belize Constitution Bill be read a Third Time as amended.

All those in favour, kindly say.aye; those against, kindly say no.

I think the ayes have it.

Bill read a Third Time.

3.


Control of Public Meetings and Public Processions (amendment) Bill, 1981 SENATOR C.L.B.

ROGERS (Minister' of Horae .affairs): Mr. President, I beg to report that the Bill for the Control of Public Meetings and Public Processions (Amendment) Bill, 1981, has been considered by a Committee of the 'Whole Senate and passed without amendment.

I move the Third reading of the Bill.


MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Senators, the Question is that the Control of Public nestings and Public Processions i (Amendment) Bill, 1981 be read a Third Tine.

All those in favour, kindly say aye; those against, kindly say no.

I think the ayes have it.

Bill read a Third Time.

I ^DjOURPMEKT SENATOR C.L.B.

itOGERS (Minister of Home Affairs): ■ ..j-Mr. President, I move that the Senate do now adjourn to a date Ito be fixed by the President.
I Honourable ter'tors, the Senate now MR. PRESIDENT: stands adjourned.

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